# Linear Power Mods - The Real Scoop



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I remember asking a question on here roughly seven months ago for someone to explain what exactly is done in the process of having a Linear Power amplifier modified. Sadly, the answers I received were inconsistent, to say the least, and TODAY my curiosity got the best of me!

One answer I was given is that the OPAMPS are changed. 









Myth, busted!

Next, I was told that the Transistors were changed out with Transistors that were more capable:









Uh, NOPE! I could show you the rest, but NOTHING is different!

Finally, I was told that the torrid was re-wrapped, the rail capacitors were changed, and the amplifier was re-biased to take advantage of the different transformer:









Ding, ding, ding.... we have a winner! 

Stock rail capacitors are 470uF/50v whereas the modified rail capacitors are 1000uF/63v 85 degree Celsius Xicons. In fact, from what I can tell from the unmodified versus the modified is that ALL capacitors in these amplifiers are of the 85 degree Celsius variety! Sadly, I am NOT going to count the windings on the toroid!

*Disclaimer:* I only have a basic electronics background and may have missed something. Also, my workbench is a wreck from the 10 or so household projects that I have going on at the moment:blush: Lastly, I hope this was more informative than Geraldo Rivera's opening of Al Capone's vault!


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

hmm the 2.2 I just got in has burr-brown already in it, i doubt they change those, I bet it is all dependant on which amp is getting modified


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Just to end any confusion, my comparison involves a Stock 1502IQ versus a modified 1502IQ!


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

Thread of the year.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

so you are saying that all they do is change out the caps?


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

also that transistor on the left there looks different


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

this was taken from the LP site

"The power supply fets are changed to parts with double the current capability of the factory devices, the storage capacitors are changed to parts with over double the storage and filtering than the stock components. The transformer's current and voltage capabilities are also increased. The pre-amp and output stages are also refined and improved with various additional parts and part changes to improve the overall sonic capability of the amp. "


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> also that transistor on the left there looks different


One has a cushion for the clamp down bar and the other one doesn't!


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> One has a cushion for the clamp down bar and the other one doesn't!


Got ya

You didnt notice anything else different in the amp


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## circa40 (Jan 20, 2008)

85 degree caps?


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

There does look to be a few more windings on the modded toroid.


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## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> ...Lastly, I hope this was more informative than Geraldo Rivera's opening of Al Capone's vault!


I was telling a story a while back and made reference to Geraldo Rivera and Al Capone's Vault, and everyone looked at me like I had 3 noses. Thank you for bringing that up, I'm glad someone else remembers it.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Thanks for the great info Mustang. I have no electronic engineering education so I dont know the difference between that old cap and that 85 degree caps.


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## kappa546 (Apr 11, 2005)

wasn't it just empty? lol


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

TREETOP said:


> I was telling a story a while back and made reference to Geraldo Rivera and Al Capone's Vault, and everyone looked at me like I had 3 noses. Thank you for bringing that up, I'm glad someone else remembers it.


That was one of americas most shocking moments. I think it was ranked 10's out of 100. It was also very funny, how people though there was gold, drugs, weaponds of mass destruction (just like Iraq), and then when unlocked.......... ...... .... ...... nothing but dirt.


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## 6APPEAL (Apr 5, 2007)

BeatsDownLow said:


> I bet it is all dependant on which amp is getting modified


Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. Care to try for the $64 question? Mods vary from amp model to amp model and sometimes within the same series (non-i, i, iq). Big differences between the older amps mods and the newer amps mods. Don't ask me what parts, I don't know the specifics, but have seen many done. I do know that rewrapping the torrid is a ***** and must be done correctly or the magic smoke gets released.:laugh:
John


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

6APPEAL said:


> Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. Care to try for the $64 question? Mods vary from amp model to amp model and sometimes within the same series (non-i, i, iq). Big differences between the older amps mods and the newer amps mods. Don't ask me what parts, I don't know the specifics, but have seen many done. I do know that rewrapping the torrid is a ***** and must be done correctly or the magic smoke gets released.:laugh:
> John


I know all too well about wrapping a toroid correctly. There is a long funny story involving a physics project that went up in smoke due to an improperly wound toroid which would explain why I don't do toroids, but this run on sentence will have to suffice


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## bass_lover1 (Dec 10, 2005)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I know all too well about wrapping a torrid correctly. There is a long funny story involving a physics project that went up in smoke due to an improperly wound torrid which would explain why I don't do torrids, but this run on sentence will have to suffice


With no period to boot!


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

bass_lover1 said:


> With no period to boot!


That just means he's not done yet.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

My modded 3.2s have re-wound torroids. Power at 4 ohms stereo went up quite a bit.

As far as opamps in the 2.2s, I had 2 that had OP-275s and one that had BB2134s from the factory. The one with the 2134s was some of the last made. All of my 3.2s and 4.1s have TL072s in them. One of the 3.2s I have was from the last production run of the amps and they never changed the opamps over the years in them.

I don't this expose of a post is worth more than a grain of salt it should be taken with. And borderlines bad/misinformation.


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

It's "toroid", not torrid.

Unless, of course, you're meaning a hot, steamy, monkey-love sort of affair with your amp. I know I'm pretty fond of my C2K's, but torrid not so much...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> I don't this expose of a post is worth more than a grain of salt it should be taken with. And borderlines bad/misinformation.


LOL that made sense :mean:

How you been man?! long-time no hear! 




kevin k. said:


> Unless, of course, you're meaning a hot, steamy, monkey-love sort of affair......


where do i sign up?


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> Just to end any confusion, my comparison involves a Stock 1502IQ versus a modified 1502IQ!


Just to understand correctly, is this the same amp?


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

kevin k. said:


> It's "toroid", not torrid.


Doh, sorry about that.

ETA: Ninja edits for correctness have been performed to correct my misspelling of toroid!


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

kevin k. said:


> Just to understand correctly, is this the same amp?


Negative, one is a "modified" amp that was done not too long ago, and the other is a "virgin" 1502IQ!

ETA: I have TWO more unmodified 1502IQs if, for some reason, you think I am not painting an accurate picture!


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

6APPEAL said:


> Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. Care to try for the $64 question? Mods vary from amp model to amp model and sometimes within the same series (non-i, i, iq). Big differences between the older amps mods and the newer amps mods. Don't ask me what parts, I don't know the specifics, but have seen many done. * I do know that rewrapping the torrid is a ***** and must be done correctly or the magic smoke gets released.:*laugh:
> John


Aint that a *****, lol. :laugh: I wonder if any of my amps have magic smoke?


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

Just my opinion, but I think before and after pics of the *same* amp would give you much firmer footing to make such a serious accusation / allegation.


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## bass_lover1 (Dec 10, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> That just means he's not done yet.


He did say "run on."


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

kevin k. said:


> Just my opinion, but I think before and after pics of the *same* amp would give you much firmer footing to make such accusations.


Sorry, don't have those but I do have the 1502IQ schematics!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

kevin k. said:


> Just my opinion, but I think before and after pics of the *same* amp would give you much firmer footing to make such accusations.


Pony up the cash, I'm sure he would send it in


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

chad said:


> Pony up the cash, I'm sure he would send it in


Maybe *you* should pony up, seeing as you're the one wanting to sign up for the torrid monkey love...


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

OK, what gives? The word *Monkey* has been used 5 times so far in an LP thread and NO ONE has gone apeshit?!?!


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

All I know is that *I* will not be spending another penny on sending LPs off to be modified!


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> All I know is that *I* will not be spending another penny on sending LPs off to be modified!


then be happy with your weaker product.

Have you compared the non modified to the modded one?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

kevin k. said:


> Maybe *you* should pony up, seeing as you're the one wanting to sign up for the torrid monkey love...


I'm just here for the monkey sex (6 times), I know damn good an well what re-wrapping a transformer and installing caps that are rated for a lower temp than the interior of a car in the sun will do


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> then be happy with your weaker product.
> 
> Have you compared the non modified to the modded one?


What are you talking about? I am about to make a fortune off of all you Linear Power lovers

ETA: I haven't done the "power" comparisons on the unmodified versus the modified 1502IQ yet. I did measure the output on the unmodified amplifier in this thread at 110 watts RMS per channel just prior to clipping on my Oscilloscope. If I had to venture to guess, the modified amp should follow the path of the other modified amps I own and produce 150 watts RMS per channel. My LP 150 produces 150 watts RMS per channel just prior to clipping and the modified 1752 that I had produced 189 watts RMS per channel just prior to clipping at 4 ohms.

In retrospect, I believe I would have been better off spending $150 to purchase another 1502IQ and use two amplifiers instead of one for increased headroom. I must shamefully admit that even I was sucked into the Psychoacoustic factor of running the mythical, magical, SQ modified amps! Now I have turned into a bitter skeptic.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeah it's late and I left out a couple key words...lol.

Been good. Have a baby girl coming within a month. Due date is June 21st.



chad said:


> LOL that made sense :mean:
> 
> How you been man?! long-time no hear!
> 
> ...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

My modded 3.2 did roughly 375 wpc into a 4 ohm reactive load on a 12 volt power supply.


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

chad said:


> I'm just here for the monkey sex (6 times), I know damn good an well what re-wrapping a transformer and installing caps that are rated for a lower temp than the interior of a car in the sun will do


Yeah, unfortunately, I do, too! 

I was just stating the obvious... a better-controlled _expose'_ would have been to use the same amp. Not taking sides in any way, shape, or form. And, let's not forget...






Torrid, steamy, and white hot monkey sex!!!!!


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

imjustjason said:


> OK, what gives? The word *Monkey* has been used 5 times so far in an LP thread and NO ONE has gone apeshit?!?!


Apeshit? What's that supposed to mean?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Ray has left the building for good.


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## MuTT (Apr 4, 2007)

Hi, I'm here for the monkey sex


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Been good. Have a baby girl coming within a month. Due date is June 21st.


Awesome! Congrats man! There has been a recent run on babies in the Car Audio world (not me.)

Best wishes to you and your family, hope the delivery goes well and your baby is healthy.



thehatedguy said:


> Ray has left the building for good.


Keg's still here, party on.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Congratulations Jason !!


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

chad said:


> There has been a recent run on babies in the Car Audio world.


It's all the torrid hot monkey sex!!


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Wrong response (by me), 2 hours of sleep, and a lot of editing


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I can't believe no one has anything to add to this!:mean:



thehatedguy said:


> Ray has left the building for good.


Yep, just like he did **HERE** when someone called his bluff!


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I can't believe no one has anything to add to this!:mean:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, just like he did **HERE** when someone called his bluff!


I dont know what you want people to add, everyone else that has one modified says there is a difference and they seem to be happy with it. If you dont think amps sound different then fall into the crowd that doesnt think so, I dont know what else to say. I havent heard a LP yet so I dont know what my opinion is on them.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> I dont know what you want people to add, everyone else that has one modified says there is a difference and they seem to be happy with it. If you dont think amps sound different then fall into the crowd that doesnt think so, I dont know what else to say. I havent heard a LP yet so I dont know what my opinion is on them.


I was impressed with the mod at first, until I realized that it was just a Psychoacoustic effect to justify the spending of $150 for the mod. Now I feel like I did when I was a child and first realized that there was no such thing as Santa Claus.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It's hard to imagine why people like Jeff left internet forums...


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Well actually .... ummm .... *NO* {* it ain't* } *!*


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> It's hard to imagine why people like Jeff left internet forums...


Fragile ego?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Bettar Thangs to do ....

Let's face it , very few here could understand him 



I like the new Q's , how do I wire mah subs ? , what is a fuse for ? , anyone know how to use this piece I bought { BWA HA HA HA } :crowngrin:


:2thumbsup::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Do you smoke a lot of crack?



ca90ss said:


> Fragile ego?


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Do you smoke a lot of crack?


Nope. 

Jeff was fine as long as everyone was kissing his ass. As soon as someone said something he didn't like he took his ball and went home. Same thing with Ray, he joined in the middle of the LP circle jerk and everything was great until his feelings got hurt and he bailed as well.



It's funny that you're doing the same thing you accuse the members of this forum of doing. Does this quote look familiar?



> Most of those guys want a freaking group hug on every post, and when you go against the grain, you get shunned.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

He doesn't smoke crack .

He does buy amps for exremely low prices.. Though 

Think anti-JOMA ! 

He then sells em and some other fool gets em bwa ha ha


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

Winslow-Come on now. Jeff left the internet forums yes but he was headed out of car audio anyways. 

His knowledge and ideas are missed. However, Jeff is the kind of guy like other's that also pursue many other different things and certain things are only going to hold their attention so long.

90% of people that get into car audio for maybe 3 to 5 years then they get bored and start something else. Very few people love car audio enough to stay with it without a break for 20 years or even less. Just like competing many of the people that did it for years are gone they did all they wanted, lost interest and moved on.

I am sure Jeff was pissed but he had all but quite posting on ECA before this happened. His interest just changed and we all know if he wanted to log on and get involved again he could very easily.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Teaching kindergardners holds more promise


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Sometimes I really want to post to these kinds of threads, and then I don't. I will leave this part...

If LP amps are so great, then how could you ever get much improvement with mods? In reality if you hear a huge difference then the old amp was in very poor working condition or it was a real POS to start with.

Excepting when you raise the rail voltage, sure it will make more power and you must use rail caps rated for that...but it will also be likely to smoke if you run it at loads as low as the original could run. That is true for nearly any amp.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

sqshoestring said:


> Sometimes I really want to post to these kinds of threads, and then I don't. I will leave this part...
> 
> If LP amps are so great, then how could you ever get much improvement with mods? In reality if you hear a huge difference then the old amp was in very poor working condition or it was a real POS to start with.
> 
> Excepting when you raise the rail voltage, sure it will make more power and you must use rail caps rated for that...but it will also be likely to smoke if you run it at loads as low as the original could run. That is true for nearly any amp.


And it is true that just about every amp can be made better with mods, not just LP


I mean is it that hard to beleive that a 15-20 year old design that was good could be made better?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It is a constant berating of knowledgeable who are trying to educate others.

No, I don't care for a group hug...but damn, you can treat those who deserve respect with some respect.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

sqshoestring said:


> Sometimes I really want to post to these kinds of threads, and then I don't. I will leave this part...
> 
> If LP amps are so great, then how could you ever get much improvement with mods? In reality if you hear a huge difference then the old amp was in very poor working condition or it was a real POS to start with.


I fell for the hype and BS associated with a modification thinking that it would "modernize" a design from 1994. Man was I ever mistaken...



sqshoestring said:


> Excepting when you raise the rail voltage, sure it will make more power and you must use rail caps rated for that...but it will also be likely to smoke if you run it at loads as low as the original could run. That is true for nearly any amp.


My thoughts exactly! These "mods" that increase power and allegedly increase SQ change the operating characteristics of the amplifier. You are limited to 4 ohms stereo and 8 ohms mono after a modification with some general exceptions. Regardless, even the ones that will "run" at 4 ohms mono after modifications tend to heat up rather quickly and thermal.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I fell for the hype and BS associated with a modification thinking that it would "modernize" a design from 1994. Man was I ever mistaken...
> 
> 
> 
> My thoughts exactly! These "mods" that increase power and allegedly increase SQ change the operating characteristics of the amplifier. You are limited to 4 ohms stereo and 8 ohms mono after a modification with some general exceptions. Regardless, even the ones that will "run" at 4 ohms mono after modifications tend to heat up rather quickly and thermal.


What exactly is your point in this thread? You havent A/B them to see if they are different. I mean do you want everybody to not use or get their LP's modified since you dont. I see no point in this thread, except you looking for validation of something. **** if you dont like the amps dont use them, if you feel modification doesnt do anything, then dont get them modified, move on


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Exactly


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

BeatsDownLow said:


> *And it is true that just about every amp can be made better with mods, not just LP*
> 
> 
> I mean is it that hard to beleive that a 15-20 year old design that was good could be made better?





06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> My thoughts exactly! These "mods" that increase power and allegedly increase SQ change the operating characteristics of the amplifier. You are limited to 4 ohms stereo and 8 ohms mono after a modification with some general exceptions. * Regardless, even the ones that will "run" at 4 ohms mono after modifications tend to heat up rather quickly and thermal.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I heard of the RIPS system, and you can get it installed in certain amps (not sure which ones) but was highly priced ( I belive it was 200.00 if not more).Would like to know both if anyone out there has any info on this.
> 
> I am receiving my LPs I got modded (hope I dont feel like you mustang) by the end of this month. I will give them a normal test then let you know what I think after the modds.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> What exactly is your point in this thread? You havent A/B them to see if they are different.


To show the REAL TRUTH in what is involved in a modification versus the beat around the bush response you will get from the person performing the modification. He will even go as far as to say he hasn't had ANYONE disappointed with a mod. Well, *I AM!* 

As for the A/B, no I didn't test the power output at clipping, but I have used all FOUR of my 1502IQs in recent months as part of one of my installs. You want to know the difference? The modded one doesn't ramp itself back when it clips, the stock ones do. The modded one gets hot like a MOFO when run @ 2 ohms stereo or 4 ohms mono, the stock ones don't. 



BeatsDownLow said:


> I mean do you want everybody to not use or get their LP's modified since you dont. I see no point in this thread, except you looking for validation of something. **** if you dont like the amps dont use them, if you feel modification doesnt do anything, then dont get them modified, move on


Don't worry, I am about to move on! I guess this one of those situations where I will be chastised for going against the grain by stating my opinion in *being thoroughly disappointed with amplifiers that I paid TOP DOLLAR for!*


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Jeanious2009 said:


> I am receiving my LPs I got modded (hope I dont feel like you mustang) by the end of this month. I will give them a normal test then let you know what I think after the modds.


If you are happy with them and feel that you received your money's worth, then it was worth it to you. Correct?


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> To show the REAL TRUTH in what is involved in a modification versus the beat around the bush response you will get from the person performing the modification. He will even go as far as to say he hasn't had ANYONE disappointed with a mod. Well, *I AM!*
> 
> As for the A/B, no I didn't test the power output at clipping, but I have used all FOUR of my 1502IQs in recent months as part of one of my installs. You want to know the difference? The modded one doesn't ramp itself back when it clips, the stock ones do. The modded one gets hot like a MOFO when run @ 2 ohms stereo or 4 ohms mono, the stock ones don't.
> 
> ...


If by "move on" you mean selling your amps, send me a private message with models and prices. If you mean not posting on your own thread, you got to be kidding, I am interested on what my amps are going to sound after the modds.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> To show the REAL TRUTH in what is involved in a modification versus the beat around the bush response you will get from the person performing the modification. He will even go as far as to say he hasn't had ANYONE disappointed with a mod. Well, *I AM!*
> 
> As for the A/B, no I didn't test the power output at clipping, but I have used all FOUR of my 1502IQs in recent months as part of one of my installs. You want to know the difference? The modded one doesn't ramp itself back when it clips, the stock ones do. The modded one gets hot like a MOFO when run @ 2 ohms stereo or 4 ohms mono, the stock ones don't.
> 
> ...


Well you definetly have some sort of agenda here, going back and forth from this thread to the LP discussion thread stating the same ****. I mean if I started seeing other people stating the same thing then I would have to wonder, but you are the first I have seen that is disapointed with one. I dont think you can fully identify what has been replaced, me neither, and what hasnt beside from the obvious caps. And you dont see any reason why Ray wont disclose fully what he does with them? If I knew how to make something better and I made money from it I wouldnt let other people know, I would be ****ing retarded for doing that


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Jeanious2009 said:


> If by "move on" you mean selling your amps, send me a private message with models and prices. If you mean not posting on your own thread, you got to be kidding, I am interested on what my amps are going to sound after the modds.


Sorry, but I have decided that I am going to place my amplifiers on eBay and let the market decide my final price!


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> Sorry, but I have decided that I am going to place my amplifiers on eBay and let the market decide my final price!


Well please keep me up to date on them. I am interested.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> Well you definetly have some sort of agenda here, going back and forth from this thread to the LP discussion thread stating the same ****. I mean if I started seeing other people stating the same thing then I would have to wonder, but you are the first I have seen that is disapointed with one.


Look at who started BOTH of those threads! ETA: The Linear Power discussion thread started out in the "hot deals" section because I have had nothing but unpleasant dealings with Jim/Just One More Amp/JOMA when it comes to Linear Power! It was started as a "buyer beware" thread, and has evolved from there, with the basic premise still being "buyer beware!"



BeatsDownLow said:


> I dont think you can fully identify what has been replaced, me neither, and what hasnt beside from the obvious caps. And you dont see any reason why Ray wont disclose fully what he does with them? If I knew how to make something better and I made money from it I wouldnt let other people know, I would be ****ing retarded for doing that


Actually, I can identify what has (ETA: I mean what HAS NOT) been replaced because I have the schematics for the 1502IQ! Want me to post them as proof too?


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## dkm201 (Nov 29, 2007)

06 - I appreciate you voicing your opinion. 

Most people who pay a lot for something convince themselves it must have been worth it, since they paid all that money! That kind of thinking is not exactly rare around here. 

If you hadn't actually bought the amps but still questioned the mods, I wonder if instead of being accused of having an "agenda", you would have been accused of being jealous you couldn't afford them. 

The claims on this page - Linear Power, Inc. - Amplifier Modifications - are pretty bold (one has to wonder a little bit about what "better sound stage and image" means as regards an amplifier).


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## tomtomjr (Apr 24, 2008)

Ok, I see that the IQ upgrade is not much. But what about the non IQ updates? I have some 5002 non-IQ amps that I want to get the turn off thump out of. Anyone have the mod for a non-IQ ? Unsure what is done to get the turn off thump out. Wasn't that the main difference between the IQ and non-IQ series?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

tomtomjr said:


> Ok, I see that the IQ upgrade is not much. But what about the non IQ updates? I have some 5002 non-IQ amps that I want to get the turn off thump out of. Anyone have the mod for a non-IQ ? Unsure what is done to get the turn off thump out. Wasn't that the main difference between the IQ and non-IQ series?


The IQ series did away with the need for the bridging switch by inverting a channel (the I) and added a relay for the turn on, turn off thump (Q for quiet). 

Regardless, I thought the non-IQ versions of the 5002 had a relay already? Well, my only remaining non-IQ 5002 has the relay:










ETA: One of the things I have noticed about these amps is if you let them sit for too long, the relay tends to stick and will produce audible noise at turn on and turn off.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

But you haven't proved jack ****....other than making yourself look like a clown in the process.


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> But you haven't proved jack ****....other than making yourself look like a clown in the process.


That would be YOUR opinion then!

If you think it is worth it to spend $150 on four capacitors and a re-wound transformer, then by all means *DO IT*. The labor involved in doing this combined with the $2 in parts may be worth it to *YOU*, but it was not worth it to *ME*!

I was just trying to provide a little insight into the questions that are constantly asked regarding these magical, mythical, SQ, cook breakfast for you, auto-booty call, Linear Power modifications that no one else seems to be able to answer. If you don't like it, put me on ignore!


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Winslow, sometimes I get the impression that you just like to defend your buddies. I don't know why you're objecting so strenuously to what's being reported.

Really, I don't see what the controversy is here. 06 showed pictures of things that he expected would be modded but weren't. He also offered his opinion that it wasn't worth the money to him, because either he was naive about the significance of the mod, or it was misrepresented.

Seems like a helpful thread for anybody considering having mods done to the same amp. What's the problem?


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

MarkZ said:


> What's the problem?


I did what is considered sacrilege by speaking out against the almighty Linear Power and the TIPS mods. Now I shall be shunned and cast out for speaking against that which one should not speak out against!:worried:


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I did what is considered sacrilege by speaking out against the almighty Linear Power and the TIPS mods. Now I shall be shunned and cast out for speaking against that which one should not speak out against!:worried:


That's pretty much what the memo said. oke::whip::singer:


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Modding an amp to have more power at 4 ohms and giving up use at 2 ohms might be great for your use, replacing caps in an old LP is a great idea, but other mods are going to be hard to discern in performance. That is true of near any amp as all class AB are very similar in design. If you can mod the amp to get rid of a thump or something, that is cool. Since the 80s and newer amps typically have distortion rates lower than a human ear can find, sonic quality is really not what anyone should be looking for. Far as power, amps are scaled to a power level and that means most of what is in there would be lacking should you mod it for more power at the same load. Eventually it will destroy itself and I would not even want an amp like that. Otherwise, the subtle differences in sound are pretty much user preference.

In my book durability and future value are very important, and LP amps have a great heatsink and none of the other garbage I don't need like filters/xovers. Other pluses are the name. They are old and take special plugs for some, the caps fail like many other old amps, and parts can be hard to find are the low points I see. Oh, and high price is another low point. I run other old amps for much less, but its all what you want and the budget you have at the time. Just like minor differences in the sound, it is personal preference. One nice factor is you can buy a LP and get your money back when you sell for the most part.

All I would say is someone may have been energetic with the description of things if you expected miracles, it is just another amp and they all work nearly the same. I mean fine to like X brand amp, but to say it is that much different in sound than another is a mistake. It is likely a brand new pyramid sounds better (though who knows what real output is), but if you can't hear the tiny distortion a 1980s LP amp makes does the pyramid sound better? No. LP amps can sound bad if the caps are gone. IMO LP amps are worth the money for reasons other than sound quality, though clipping sound quality might be one of them....yet it is hard to call that part of a SQ argument.

Far as cost, well I will not comment on TIPs but if you have $3 in parts and it takes you two hours to put them in and test the amp...and you have to pay the rent...how much should any tech charge? I don't know the exact numbers but that is why few repair amps anymore considering the cost of Chinese made amps and how nearly every amp is now made there.


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## SUX 2BU (Oct 27, 2008)

Back in around 1991 I'd say, my brother had a full system in his Z28. Had two Alpine amps, a 4 channel bridged running a pair of Terminator 4-ohm 15s and a small 2 channel running the 2-way front stage with an Audio Control 2xs doing xover duty. He coughed up for a purple 5002 and 2202, which was a lot of money back in the day and in Canadian funds. Anyway, after the switch, there was much less volume from both amps and the sound overal was just disappointing. System configuration was the same and he checked gains and all that. For what was at least a tripling of power from a very popular and respected amp company, we could not figure out what the problem was. He sold them and was glad for it. Never figured out why there was such a lack of power.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

SUX 2BU said:


> Back in around 1991 I'd say, my brother had a full system in his Z28. Had two Alpine amps, a 4 channel bridged running a pair of Terminator 4-ohm 15s and a small 2 channel running the 2-way front stage with an Audio Control 2xs doing xover duty. He coughed up for a purple 5002 and 2202, which was a lot of money back in the day and in Canadian funds. Anyway, after the switch, there was much less volume from both amps and the sound overal was just disappointing. System configuration was the same and he checked gains and all that. For what was at least a tripling of power from a very popular and respected amp company, we could not figure out what the problem was. He sold them and was glad for it. Never figured out why there was such a lack of power.


Might have been the input voltage, Alpine is very low and LP liked more. Anyway, a 5002 would smoke any two 4ch alpine made at that time. They had the power for sure, but they did not always work for every application. I would pick them for sub amps anytime back then but not highs, maybe mids.


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## SUX 2BU (Oct 27, 2008)

Yeah it was very weird. Still weird to this day what happened there. This was back in the day of 500mV output head units and CD changers were an impressive upgrade to pull-out cassette decks. It was like there was some kind of choke or filter but nothing was put in to do that.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

New LPNuthugger sig:


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

SUX 2BU said:


> Back in around 1991 I'd say, my brother had a full system in his Z28. Had two Alpine amps, a 4 channel bridged running a pair of Terminator 4-ohm 15s and a small 2 channel running the 2-way front stage with an Audio Control 2xs doing xover duty. He coughed up for a purple 5002 and 2202, which was a lot of money back in the day and in Canadian funds. Anyway, after the switch, there was much less volume from both amps and the sound overal was just disappointing. System configuration was the same and he checked gains and all that. For what was at least a tripling of power from a very popular and respected amp company, we could not figure out what the problem was. He sold them and was glad for it. Never figured out why there was such a lack of power.


One of the channels was burnt out completely on the 5002 [ Hence why you never, ever.. buy someone elses problems 

Where is rhe end of the story ?

1] He turned around and sold these amps for just what he paid for them a week later and reinstalled the alpines ?

2] He was lucky to get more than he paid for them and was able to buy a new cavalier ?

3] He works for GM now and realises those were the best amps he'll ever have had and wishes he could have taken pictures of them


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

DonovanM said:


> New LPNuthugger sig:


Same subs sold in 2009 ? 

Amplified Bass System Enclosure (1200-Watt Subwoofer Enclosure + 400-Watt Monoblock Amplifier) The new Terminator, TNP212D amplified bass system, provides all the power you need for a chest pounding audio experience. Combining the sleek looks and power of the Terminator TN250/1 mono block amplifier with an aggressive, sealed enclosure housing two 12" Terminator subwoofers. The Terminator enclosure is ruggedly constructed using 5/8" MDF and aviation grade black carpet with an embroidered Terminator logo. The *Terminator subwoofers* are capable of handling 200W RMS each and are based on solid construction including 2" voice coils and 48 oz. magnets. The TNP212P will deliver rock solid performance at an unbeatable price. Amplifier Specifications: * Primary Ratings - Power Output: 100 Watts RMS x 1 Channel at 4 Ohms < 1% THD+N - Signal-To-Noise Ratio (1 Watt): >73 dB * Secondary Ratings - Power Output: 200 Watts RMS x 1 Channel at 2 Ohms < 1% THD+N - THD+N (Distortion) (1 Watt): <1% - Frequency Response (-3dB): 20Hz to 85Hz - Maximum Input Signal: 4V - Maximum Sensitivity: 200mV - Dimensions: 10-3/16" x 13-1/16" x 2-1/4" * Mono Gain Control - Crossover: 18dB/Octave @ 85Hz LP - Bass Boost: Switchable 0, 6, or 12 Centered @ 40Hz Enclosure Specifications: * Description: Dual 12", Terminator Loaded Sealed Enclosure * Impedance: 2 Ohms * Frequency Response (± 3dB): 37 - 150Hz * MAX Power: 1200W * Recommended Amp Power (RMS): 600 - 1200W * RMS Power (Watts): 400W * Recommend Amp Power (RMS): 200 - 400W * Enslosure Size: 18.75" x 15.75" x 31.75"


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

a$$hole said:


> Same subs sold in 2009 ?
> 
> ...


WTF?


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

SUX 2BU said:


> Back in around 1991 I'd say, my brother had a full system in his Z28. Had two Alpine amps, a 4 channel bridged running a pair of Terminator 4-ohm 15s and a small 2 channel running the 2-way front stage with an Audio Control 2xs doing xover duty. He coughed up for a purple 5002 and 2202, which was a lot of money back in the day and in Canadian funds. Anyway, after the switch, there was much less volume from both amps and the sound overal was just disappointing. System configuration was the same and he checked gains and all that. For what was at least a tripling of power from a very popular and respected amp company, we could not figure out what the problem was. He sold them and was glad for it. Never figured out why there was such a lack of power.





DonovanM said:


> WTF?


a couple of post before yours


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

a$$hole said:


> a couple of post before yours


You're the one with the quotefail!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

DonovanM said:


> You're the one with the quotefail!


he's the king of the quotefail.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

quote

Kiss my username , no tongue DONO 

quote


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

sqshoestring said:


> Far as cost, well I will not comment on TIPs but if you have $3 in parts and it takes you two hours to put them in and test the amp...*and you have to pay the rent...*how much should any tech charge? I don't know the exact numbers but that is why few repair amps anymore considering the cost of Chinese made amps and how nearly every amp is now made there.


Not just pay the rent, but eat also. I would understand why most dont do any of this type of work any more. Theres some people that want more than just a few dollars of parts and a few hours of labor. But then theres people that understand if you try it yourself and dont know what your doing, you could end up installing the wrong parts and at the wrong places and end up making it worse if not burning it up.

Thats why i went ahead and got a professional to modd mines. Dont care if he spent 10 dollars on parts or 100 (which I know it was more than that since he had to install power terminals blocks on 8 amps) as long as it was done right and last another 15-20 years, I'll be happy.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

chad said:


> i'm the king of the quotefail.


QuoteWIN.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I'm not defending my buddies.

If you have the know how to mod the amps, then do it yourself. But I would guess that most people on here do not know how to wind transformers...and none of them have schematics for the LP amps. 

If the asking price isn't worth it to you, fine. But to some people it might be worth it. 

Along with the physical parts to be changed, you are paying for the know how to perform the changes.

Do you complain when you go out to eat? Or go to the doctor or mechanic? Sure some of those services you get from those places might be simple, easy to do, and involve minor expenses, but you are paying for the knowledge to do such things too.

Because one person had one amp modded, he is trying to make a blanket statement about all mods done to all LP amps at TIPS. Which he can not do. Nor is the person really qualified as to what was changed and why.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

bass_lover1 said:


> With no period to boot!


Did he ever get his period ? and how are his Hemorrhoids that swelled, after they were rewound.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> Because one person had one amp modded, he is trying to make a blanket statement about all mods done to all LP amps at TIPS.


Here you go reading way too much into what I stated! Where did I make a blanket statement about ALL modifications sucking royal dong? In fact, I think I said something to the effects that if one feels it is worth it to themselves, then it is worth it... At least I think that is what I stated....

Let me go through and quote myself here:



06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> If you are happy with them and feel that you received your money's worth, then it was worth it to you. Correct?





06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> If you think it is worth it to spend $150 on four capacitors and a re-wound transformer, then by all means *DO IT*. The labor involved in doing this combined with the $2 in parts may be worth it to *YOU*, but it was not worth it to *ME*!


Granted, I can see how the second statement could be misconstrued to mean that I was applying it to all TIPS modifications, but I was mainly referring to the 1502IQ. I thought this was obvious based on the price of the mod, but that is besides the point.



thehatedguy said:


> Which he can not do. Nor is the person really qualified as to what was changed and why.


Yeah, whatever...

ETA: I actually have three modified Linear Power amplifiers. One was purchased already modified, a Linear Power 1752 and I sent the LP 150 with the 1502IQ to be modified!


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> Here you go reading way too much into what I stated! Where did I make a blanket statement about ALL modifications sucking royal dong? In fact, I think I said something to the effects that if one feels it is worth it to themselves, then it is worth it... At least I think that is what I stated....
> 
> Let me go through and quote myself here:
> 
> ...


Life is good !

Now that you have the blueprints and know how to do the mods 

Buy unmodded ones for a few dollars [ TEST them }, mod them ,[ TEST them }, and sell them { You are out 15 - 20 minutes and a few dollars until you recoup your losses on ebay


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

This thread is one of the most ****ing ridiculous on this forum yet...and that's saying a lot.

The OP showed pictures of the "mods". They clearly showed what mods were done, or not done, how ever anyone wants to look at it. He feels it is not worth it, some people think it makes them some magic amp. Who cares? 

This thread is actually a hell of a lot more informative than half the worthless **** posts here. Anyone that has a LP amp can at least look at this and decide for themselves if they want to invest the money or not. At least there are some facts presented here, as opposed to the wishy washy, no straight answers about these mods I've seen before.

I personally think this thread is great. We need more like it.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

89grand said:


> This thread is one of the most ****ing ridiculous on this forum yet...and that's saying a lot.
> 
> The OP showed pictures of the "mods". They clearly showed what mods were done, or not done, how ever anyone wants to look at it. He feels it is not worth it, some people think it makes them some magic amp. Who cares?
> 
> ...




Now that is telling it like it is. 

Everyone knows about the law of diminishing returns, there might be some here with these mods. But if you like the amps then it may be worth doing. 

No I'd never recommend doing anything inside an amp if you don't know what you are doing in electronics. You will trash it most likely. Some amps go for more broken than working on ebay, so there is no point anyway.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Well, the title of your thread is called Linear Power Mods- The Real Scoop. Not, The mods done to this particular LP amp. Which in fact is what this whole ball of **** is about...this one particular model you had modded.

Why don't you show some before and after shots of the other amps?

If I can find any pictures of my stock 3.2s, I will post them with the pictures after they were modded. My 3.2s were modded for 4 ohm use, and are doing a very real 375 wpc into a 4 ohm reactive load at 12 volts. This is a fairly large increase in what they were doing over stock power.



06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> Here you go reading way too much into what I stated!
> ETA: I actually have three modified Linear Power amplifiers. One was purchased already modified, a Linear Power 1752 and I sent the LP 150 with the 1502IQ to be modified!


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> Well, the title of your thread is called Linear Power Mods- The Real Scoop. Not, The mods done to this particular LP amp. Which in fact is what this whole ball of **** is about...this one particular model you had modded.


Look dude, just give it a rest because I am about to own you by posting photos of this modified Linear Power 1502IQ compared to the Linear Power 1502IQ schematics that I have in my possession. I told you what the differences were - Four capacitors and a rewound transformer, and that is it. Not the BS posted on the website, post model engineering revision changes, or anything of that sort. Could they be different for another model of amplifier? You betcha! Did I say this was an end all discussion to EVERY modification offered by TIPS? Nope, I sure as hell didn't!

Did you happen to miss this:



06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> Just to end any confusion, my comparison involves a Stock 1502IQ versus a modified 1502IQ!


Well f*ck me sideways, *Linear Power Mods - The real scoop on a TIPS Modified 1502IQ* should have been the proper title of this thread. There, I said it. Happy now?

Anyone care to offer up detailed photos of a stock 1752 or a stock LP 150? If so I will compare them too! I had a hard drive crash back in December, so I lost my original detailed photos of the LP 150 so a before/after is next to impossible. I also don't have those schematics. As for the Linear Power 1752, as I stated, I purchased it modified, so I can't comment on those modifications either and again I am lacking schematics. But, BUT, I will be more than happy to compare what I have to some stock photos of schematics if anyone cares to offer them up!


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

lets see the schematics


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

By request!


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Doesnt really do any good without having all the values of everything in your unmodded amp and modded amp, I just wanted to see the schematics


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I mean if you know so much, why didn't you do the work yourself?


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> I just wanted to see the schematics


No problem



thehatedguy said:


> I mean if you know so much, why didn't you do the work yourself?


:speechless:


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> I mean if you know so much, why didn't you do the work yourself?


*Exactly !!*

ca90ss should have just modifed his heat transfer area and kept his LP's


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

89grand said:


> This thread is one of the most ****ing ridiculous on this forum yet...and that's saying a lot.
> 
> The OP showed pictures of the "mods". They clearly showed what mods were done, or not done, how ever anyone wants to look at it. He feels it is not worth it, some people think it makes them some magic amp. Who cares?
> 
> ...


I totally agree. Anyone (not Ray, or not just him) can say their going to make the amplifier better by switching a lot of components, but if you then later get it modded, and they only change the caps and whine up the torrid, then yes I probably be upset too, but if it did make a noticeable difference then I wont worry about it too much.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

89grand said:


> The OP showed pictures of the "mods". They clearly showed what mods were done, or not done, how ever anyone wants to look at it. He feels it is not worth it, some people think it makes them some magic amp. Who cares?
> 
> This thread is actually a hell of a lot more informative than half the worthless **** posts here. Anyone that has a LP amp can at least look at this and decide for themselves if they want to invest the money or not. *At least there are some facts presented here, as opposed to the wishy washy, no straight answers about these mods I've seen before*.
> 
> I personally think this thread is great. We need more like it.


It's risky for me to post in a volotile LP thread but here goes. 

Thank you 89grand for pointing out the lack of FACTS from previous posters regarding LP mods. 

All Chris has done here is present the facts based on the experience he had on *his modded amp*, nothing more. He is not trashing LP as a whole or TIPS for that matter. He is just presenting the facts.

When I was complaining about the overabundance of LP mod love going around the constant thing I heard was, "if you don't like it or agree with it you don't have to read it, move on." Where is that mentality now? Why all the haters for a man just stating the facts. If you don't like what he is saying go to another thread.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Although I disagree with saying that there are a bunch of components replaced and then not replacing them I must say that 150 bucks is not bad in my book for a complete dis-assembly, re-wind, bench test and cap replacement. Amp dis-assembly is time consuming and could easily meet a 2 hour bench time for the "mods"/touch-ups for an older amp.

But the little devil on my shoulder then asks.... "if they are so damn great then why do they need the transformers re-wound?"


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

chad said:


> Although I disagree with saying that there are a bunch of components replaced and then not replacing them I must say that 150 bucks is not bad in my book for a complete dis-assembly, re-wind, bench test and cap replacement. Amp dis-assembly is time consuming and could easily meet a 2 hour bench time for the "mods"/touch-ups for an older amp.
> 
> *But the little devil on my shoulder then asks.... "if they are so damn great then why do they need the transformers re-wound?"*


Why would any electric engineer re-wound the transformers? I tough since your upgrading the voltage rail and the caps, it would need more wounds, right?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Jeanious2009 said:


> Why would any electric engineer re-wound the transformers? I tough since your upgrading the voltage rail and the caps, it would need more wounds, right?


Lets try this again, I'll highlight something for you too



chad said:


> But the little devil on my shoulder then asks.... "if they are so damn great then why do they need the transformers re-wound?"


In otherwords, if they are already sought after as the ultimate in strokeriffic perfection... then... why do they need mods?


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

You guys must've missed the memo.

Transformers..................It's more than meets the eye.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

chad said:


> Although I disagree with saying that there are a bunch of components replaced and then not replacing them I must say that 150 bucks is not bad in my book for a complete dis-assembly, re-wind, bench test and cap replacement. Amp dis-assembly is time consuming and could easily meet a 2 hour bench time for the "mods"/touch-ups for an older amp.
> 
> But the little devil on my shoulder then asks.... "if they are so damn great then why do they need the transformers re-wound?"


You are correct with that being right for about 2 hours of tech time. With that said, you also saw something that I chose not to bring to light here! I could have easily turned this into slamfest 2009, but I chose not to.

OTOH, I never received an exact answer with regards as to what would be done from the man himself and was given the same BS posted on the website along with post engineering revisions to bring the amplifier "up to date" spill. Oh and my favorite "I've never had anyone disappointed with a modification!" In the end, after performing the circuit board comparisons, I was disappointed because I thought I was getting the proverbial "more for my money" than I actually did.

With all the BS out of the way, I think anyone having the modifications performed should ask themselves:

Why am I doing this? What problem am I trying to solve? What are my alternatives?

In my case, a pair of stock 1502IQs bridged @ 4 ohms would literally OWN a single modified 1502IQ at 4 ohms stereo. I saw it with my own two eyes! Had I asked myself these questions before having my amplifier repaired and modified, I would have taken a different route. My problem is I bought into the hype from everyone else ranting and raving about how great the modifications were! 

Now that I am finally geared up to repair my own amplifiers, things will be different. Over the course of the last few months I managed to acquire a 12 volt, 55 amp power supply; a Weller soldering station; a few re-work tools, and an oscilloscope. I did not have these tools back in November/December of 2008, so doing my own work was next to impossible, but not any more!


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

bassfromspace said:


> You guys must've missed the memo.
> 
> Transformers..................It's more than meets the eye.


Make sure you get him a copy of that memo!


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

chad said:


> In otherwords, if they are already sought after as the ultimate in strokeriffic perfection... then... why do they need mods?


Good luck getting that question answered. Maybe since it's coming from you someone will step up and explain.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

chad said:


> Lets try this again, I'll highlight something for you too
> 
> 
> 
> In otherwords, if they are already sought after as the ultimate in strokeriffic perfection... then... why do they need mods?


Nothing on this world is strokeriffic perfect. As you may know cars with stock turbo can still upgrade from one stage to a higher stage of turbo, same with any amplifier. And I also believe that everything can be modified for better performance, and am not just talking about amps because same goes with computers (upgrading the RAM, storage, dvd burner,ect. But thats just my opinion.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

chad said:


> In otherwords, if they are already sought after as the ultimate in strokeriffic perfection... then... why do they need mods?





imjustjason said:


> Good luck getting that question answered. Maybe since it's coming from you someone will step up and explain.


I can answer this question with a symbol: $


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

it is simple knowledge that a 10 year old cap will not perform as good as a fresh cap

Like I said before is it imposible that a older design, that was already good, could be better with acouple simple tweeks? I guess it comes down to "do you want all the performance something can give" I would, maybe you wouldnt, maybe if you can pick up another one of the amps for the price of the mods it would be better, but I dont see LP amps selling for $150-$175


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> it is simple knowledge that a 10 year old cap will not perform as good as a fresh cap
> 
> Like I said before is it imposible that a older design, that was already good, could be better with acouple simple tweeks? I guess it comes down to "do you want all the performance something can give" I would, maybe you wouldnt, maybe if you can pick up another one of the amps for the price of the mods it would be better, *but I dont see LP amps selling for $150-$175*


You have to know where to look!


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## bass_lover1 (Dec 10, 2005)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> You are correct with that being right for about 2 hours of tech time. With that said, you also saw something that I chose not to bring to light here! I could have easily turned this into slamfest 2009, but I chose not to.
> 
> OTOH, I never received an exact answer with regards as to what would be done from the man himself and was given the same BS posted on the website along with post engineering revisions to bring the amplifier "up to date" spill. Oh and my favorite "I've never had anyone disappointed with a modification!" In the end, after performing the circuit board comparisons, I was disappointed because I thought I was getting the proverbial "more for my money" than I actually did.
> 
> ...


So let me get this straight. You had a pair of 1502IQs running bridged, my guess is one per side, and you compared that to a single 1502IQ (modded) running stereo? I don't care what your opinion is, or what your agenda is (which I don't believe you have) but why on God's green earth would you think you were going to more than triple the 1502's power output running stereo? I mean, that's what it would take for the modded running stereo to match ONE bridged. 

I don't really see that as a logical assumption, but hey it's your money and your amps, and personally I don't give a **** if you're not going to run LP amps any more, and I don't know why the hell everyone else is getting their mangina's in a bunch either.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

bass_lover1 said:


> So let me get this straight. You had a pair of 1502IQs running bridged, my guess is one per side, and you compared that to a single 1502IQ (modded) running stereo? I don't care what your opinion is, or what your agenda is (which I don't believe you have) *but why on God's green earth would you think you were going to more than triple the 1502's power output running stereo*? I mean, that's what it would take for the modded running stereo to match ONE bridged.
> 
> I don't really see that as a logical assumption, but hey it's your money and your amps, and personally I don't give a **** if you're not going to run LP amps any more, and I don't know why the hell everyone else is getting their mangina's in a bunch either.


I asked ray how much more to expect on the output of a modded 2502IQ, and he stated 5-10% which is only about a total of 60watts, not much but he was pretty much telling the truth.

Not to mention, he does customize modds. Like running full power at 8-ohm mono, which is very sweeet since you will have high SQ levels and still have full power without any stress.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

bass_lover1 said:


> So let me get this straight. You had a pair of 1502IQs running bridged, my guess is one per side, and you compared that to a single 1502IQ (modded) running stereo? I don't care what your opinion is, or what your agenda is (which I don't believe you have) but why on God's green earth would you think you were going to more than triple the 1502's power output running stereo? I mean, that's what it would take for the modded running stereo to match ONE bridged.
> 
> I don't really see that as a logical assumption, but hey it's your money and your amps, and personally I don't give a **** if you're not going to run LP amps any more, and I don't know why the hell everyone else is getting their mangina's in a bunch either.


Seems to me he was just saying he could buy 2 1502's and run them bridged for the same price as one modded 1502 and get better performance.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

bass_lover1 said:


> So let me get this straight. You had a pair of 1502IQs running bridged, my guess is one per side, and you compared that to a single 1502IQ (modded) running stereo? I don't care what your opinion is, or what your agenda is (which I don't believe you have) but why on God's green earth would you think you were going to more than triple the 1502's power output running stereo? I mean, that's what it would take for the modded running stereo to match ONE bridged.
> 
> I don't really see that as a logical assumption, but hey it's your money and your amps, and personally I don't give a **** if you're not going to run LP amps any more, and I don't know why the hell everyone else is getting their mangina's in a bunch either.


I hadn't come by the pair of blue 1502IQs as of that point in time but I did run them as an experiment afterward! You remember, don't you, I purchased them right out from underneath you!

I am still on the fence about running LP, but in my particular case, modifications are useless. If I need more power, I have it. If I need this mythical ESS-QUE from a mod.... Well, as Penn and Teller would say: ********!


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> Seems to me he was just saying he could buy 2 1502's and run them bridged for the same price as one modded 1502 and get better performance.


Yep, factor the cost for one used 1502IQ plus the cost of a mod. Now take into consideration that my last Linear Power purchase was a pair of 1502IQs for $275. See where I am going with this?

Crap, you just reminded me that I have a ton of money invested in that modified 1502IQ! Right now it is serving as a door stop because the audio input filter capacitors dried out.


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## bass_lover1 (Dec 10, 2005)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I hadn't come by the pair of blue 1502IQs as of that point in time but I did run them as an experiment afterward! You remember, don't you, I purchased them right out from underneath you!
> 
> I am still on the fence about running LP, but in my particular case, modifications are useless. If I need more power, I have it. If I need this mythical ESS-QUE from a mod.... Well, as Penn and Teller would say: ********!


Don't remind me, I'm still bitter! I only needed one and that was a good deal. 

I still plan to get the 4 of mine modded, hopefully to get a bit better efficiency out of them, but definitely to add to their longevity. I figure a modded 5002 could probably last another 20 years or so, at that point $375 seems like one hell of a deal spread out over a long time span.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

bass_lover1 said:


> Don't remind me, I'm still bitter! I only needed one and that was a good deal.
> 
> I still plan to get the 4 of mine modded, hopefully to get a bit better efficiency out of them, but definitely to add to their longevity. I figure a modded 5002 could probably last another 20 years or so, at that point $375 seems like one hell of a deal spread out over a long time span.


Ray told me that 3 of my 2502IQs had a damaged FMB board and regulator circuit board and could of collapse anytime. He went ahead and fixed that too and replaced other items he said were pretty ruffed up. So hopefully now they will last another 15-20 years. Then I will be really happy with the modds, even if they were expensive.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Chad, the LP amps have traditionally been a high voltage design rather than high current. Some production/sales goals/needs pointed out that they would pick up sales if the amps could run at a lower impedance- remember when these amps were made, low impedance cheater amps and all passive systems were the norm. So what Ray is doing is modding the amps to run at the higher impedance they were originally intended to run. Doing so brings a few specs up, like damping factor, slew rate, and power. Most of the mods are geared to optimizing original design goals rather than sales goals.

For the guys balking at re-winding a toroid...take the amp apart, unsolder that thing, figure out how many turns to the primary and secondary you need to add, re-wind it, and solder it back in. You guys are acting like these guys who do this sort of stuff make $5 an hour and don't have a business to run.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> For the guys balking at re-winding a toroid...take the amp apart, unsolder that thing, figure out how many turns to the primary and secondary you need to add, re-wind it, and solder it back in. You guys are acting like these guys who do this sort of stuff make $5 an hour and don't have a business to run.


I don't really think anyone is arguing that there isn't $150 worth of work involved. As chad has said, disassembling the amp, doing the work and then reassembling the amp is easily 2 or more hours of work and $150 is fair for the amount of time involved. What I think people are questioning is the value of the mods and whether or not the performance increase is worth the cost of the mod. I comes down to the individual and in the case here, o6blmustanggt didn't think the performance increase was worth the asking price. If others do think the price is reasonable for the performance increase then hey, to each his own.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I agree. For me loosing the ability to run below 4 ohms wasn't a problem since all of the drivers I had or was wanting to get were either 4 or 8 ohms.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

a$$hole said:


> *Exactly !!*
> 
> ca90ss should have just modifed his heat transfer area and kept his LP's


Nah, that still wouldn't have changed the fact that they couldn't make rated power at 4ohm even at 14.5v with only 1 channel driven.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> Nah, that still wouldn't have changed the fact that they couldn't *make rated power at 4ohm even at 14.5v with only 1 channel driven*.



OH MY 

Have you found many amps in your searches that could ?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Chad, the LP amps have traditionally been a high voltage design rather than high current. Some production/sales goals/needs pointed out that they would pick up sales if the amps could run at a lower impedance- remember when these amps were made, low impedance cheater amps and all passive systems were the norm. So what Ray is doing is modding the amps to run at the higher impedance they were originally intended to run. Doing so brings a few specs up, like damping factor, slew rate, and power. Most of the mods are geared to optimizing original design goals rather than sales goals.


That was sort of hinted upon in another thread where it was stated that LP was not only car audio but for commercial 24V apps likely running higher impedance. So basically he is reversing a marketing goal.... NNNIIICCEEEEE  It ran rampant back then too


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

And I would have still put 105 deg caps in there. Lets face it, A LOT of this "30 years and it's still working" is due to the fact that a vast majority of them have been sitting in a closet for 20-25 years  If they were baking in a 200+ deg trunk for 30 years they would likely be toast and need a full re-cap.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

ICIXSound.COM Forums - Linear power 8002

This one sounded incredible on an IDMAX 12 ^^^^ 

Ray reconnected the gain and tested it, prior to that *it only drove one voice coil* on a dual voice coil Cerwin Vega Stroker 15 inch.

John Yi thought it might be dead at this point due to being *driven full out for 6 years* in America and abroad 

...and yes that is me in the picture :blush:


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

chad said:


> And I would have still put 105 deg caps in there. Lets face it, A LOT of this "30 years and it's still working" is due to the fact that a vast majority of them have been sitting in a closet for 20-25 years  If they were baking in a 200+ deg trunk for 30 years they would likely be toast and need a full re-cap.


I am about to place a huge capacitor order at Mouser!


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

a$$hole said:


> OH MY
> 
> Have you found many amps in your searches that could ?


Sure, lots of them. The little Audio Art I have made about %40 more than rated with both channels driven at 12.5v. PPI's usuallly come within a couple watts of rated power. The xtant 301a's I just sold were underrated by %15-20. The old first gen infinity full range class d's make quite a bit more than rated as well. I think the only others that couldn't make rated power besides the LP's were a couple of old alphasonik amps and a couple of Zed Boss amps that made about half of their rated power.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Ray had this to say about the amp I purchased ...

quote:
Yes, he did, those 8002SW's were sent back in and internally changed, they were the predecessor of the 4.1HVS, but not quite. But they WERE NOT modified by Jon Fairchild, they were worked on by Jeri McCord and Mike Ferrara at our factory in Ca at the time.

John Fairchild, speaker engineer from Cerwin, God rest his soul, and Jeri McCord our engineer designed both the stroker and the 8002SW during the same period and used each others product when testing each, this made the two products work extremely well together, since they were designed around each other.
quote:

__________________________________________________________________

Linear Power was started by the husband/wife team of Peter and Ruth Werback in 1975 in the gold country of northern California. With $16.00 worth http://maxworkpublishing.com/of parts in his shoebox, Peter started building amplifiers for his friends in his spare time. Peter and Ruth decided to quit their full-time jobs, and start Schmegg Electronics. Being dedicated to high end home electronics, they built a company dedicated to bringing that sound to 12 volt high quality automotive electronics. Schmegg Electronics later changed names to *Linear Power Inc*. <br><br>

25 years, and dozens of award winning product lines later, Linear Power products remain superior to other brands. Using only the best components, the latest technology, and the best Electronics Engineers ensures that these amplifiers stand above and beyond any others on the market. <br><br>

Linear Power supplied amplifiers to the world's *number one* theme park, the *New York Philharmonic Orchestra*, the *U.S. Military*, and other well known names. 

_______________________________________________________________-

Der Schmegg appears to have made quite an impression on John Yi { founder of *TRU *}.

After driving that van he went on to incorporate *TO3 devices* into his own amplifiers.

I once heard a joke that said: *In Heaven the germans are the engineers...*


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

If you are replacing PS caps, I would go with Panasonic caps from Digikey. Coupling caps, I would get Elma Silmic from Digikey.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> Sure, lots of them. The little Audio Art I have made about %40 more than rated with both channels driven at 12.5v. PPI's usuallly come within a couple watts of rated power. The xtant 301a's I just sold were underrated by %15-20. The old first gen infinity full range class d's make quite a bit more than rated as well. I think the only others that couldn't make rated power besides the LP's were a couple of old alphasonik amps and a couple of Zed Boss amps that made about half of their rated power.


So what LP exactly do you say dont make rated power?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> If you are replacing PS caps, I would go with Panasonic caps from Digikey. Coupling caps, I would get Elma Silmic from Digikey.


^^^ Word ^^^

Nichicons don't suck for the price either. Panasonic 'Lytics are great for the price and last a long time.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

chad said:


> ^^^ Word ^^^
> 
> Nichicons don't suck for the price either. Panasonic 'Lytics are great for the price and last a long time.


I was hoping to replace them with 105° C, 2000 hour capacitors from either Panasonic or Nichicon. Digikey makes the life a tad bit easier to find versus Mouser where you have to dig and pull up the data sheet.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

BeatsDownLow said:


> So what LP exactly do you say dont make rated power?


Enquiring minds want to know 

Was it a 4.1 , 3.2 , 2.2 , 8002 , 5002 , etc.., ????


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Panasonic caps are really good caps and don't cost an arm or leg. The FC line is a really good all around cap- power supply and a nice coupling cap too. Nelson Pass uses them in his amps (Panasonic for PS and FCs), and that says a lot to me. He also said the Elna Silmics were his new favorite coupling cap. And they are pretty cheap at Digikey.

I changed the coupling caps in my Zapcos...the midbass amp got Silmics bypassed with a poly cap, and the sub amp got Nichicon MUSE ES. The Nichicon MUSE ES caps are supposed to be the king dingaling for bass. But they are harder to find.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Panasonic caps are really good caps and don't cost an arm or leg. The FC line is a really good all around cap- power supply and a nice coupling cap too. Nelson Pass uses them in his amps (Panasonic for PS and FCs), and that says a lot to me. He also said the Elna Silmics were his new favorite coupling cap. And they are pretty cheap at Digikey.
> 
> I changed the coupling caps in my Zapcos...the midbass amp got Silmics bypassed with a poly cap, and the sub amp got Nichicon MUSE ES. The Nichicon MUSE ES caps are supposed to be the king dingaling for bass. But they are harder to find.


Ohhh, bypass caps rustang, a new mod!


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

BeatsDownLow said:


> So what LP exactly do you say dont make rated power?


Just tested a few of the smaller ones 452, 652, 1002 etc. Sold my bigger ones before I got around to testing them.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> Just tested a few of the smaller ones 452, 652, 1002 etc. Sold my bigger ones before I got around to testing them.


I was able to squeeze 37 watts off of one channel on a LP652i after I repaired it. Of course, that was its maximum power just before clipping on the Oscilloscope into a 4 ohm load @ 50 Hz. I usually subtract out 20% for the 20 Hz to 20 kHz and one channel adjustment so that would put the amp just below rated power.


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Panasonic caps are really good caps and don't cost an arm or leg. The FC line is a really good all around cap- power supply and a nice coupling cap too. Nelson Pass uses them in his amps (Panasonic for PS and FCs), and that says a lot to me. He also said the Elna Silmics were his new favorite coupling cap. And they are pretty cheap at Digikey.
> 
> I changed the coupling caps in my Zapcos...the midbass amp got Silmics bypassed with a poly cap, and the sub amp got Nichicon MUSE ES. The Nichicon MUSE ES caps are supposed to be the king dingaling for bass. But they are harder to find.


What's your take on the Panasonic FM series caps? I'll be replacing the PS caps of my old zapcos.

Thanks.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I was able to squeeze 37 watts off of one channel on a LP652i after I repaired it. Of course, that was its maximum power just before clipping on the Oscilloscope into a 4 ohm load @ 50 Hz. I usually subtract out 20% for the 20 Hz to 20 kHz and one channel adjustment so that would put the amp just below rated power.


I only managed about 28w out of one channel on my 652iq @1khz. Got [email protected], [email protected] and [email protected] out of one channel on the 1002. If I'd had a load on both channels I'm sure the numbers would have been lower.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Linear_Power_652IQ/inside1.jpg


2 x 32.5W @ 4 ohms
1 x 120W @ 4 ohms bridge
THD: 0.06%
S/N Ratio: 95dB
Channel Separation: 60dB
Damping Factor: >100
*Fuse: 10A*


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

FMs are excellent caps. Lower ESR and ripple current than the FCs (which are already excellent in their own rights). But they come in a more limited voltage/capacitance range. Small and cheap too. I like them a lot. Panasonic makes a great capacitor.

Yeah, bypass caps...another ball of wax. My processors have the same mods as the amps...so it all stays the same. Modded the Denon DCT-1 and DSP-6 to coax too. Nice Newa isolation transformers and teflon caps in there.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

This might be out of the subject, but what components would you (by you, I mean anyone with experience on electronics) replace on a 20 year old amplifier that was never used if not only a few hours and that would of being 20 years ago. Because I looked at one of mine, and all the caps seem to be looking perfectly new, and so do the resistors. But then again I could be defenetly wrong.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

To be damn sure... All the Lytics with with panasonics as posted above, Nichicon works for small signal if you can't find the right panasonic value.... and I'm still thinking about this bypass cap thing. They are too "new" to have carbon resistors so I would not worry about that. Go Hi temp caps. You can go up in voltage in the PS and possibly a BIT on storage... keep the same values in the small signal stages. Problem with going HUGE in the PS is the inrush current, the larger, the longer they look like a dead short.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Jeanious2009 said:


> This might be out of the subject, but what components would you (by you, I mean anyone with experience on electronics) replace on a 20 year old amplifier that was never used if not only a few hours and that would of being 20 years ago. Because I looked at one of mine, and all the caps seem to be looking perfectly new, and so do the resistors. But then again I could be defenetly wrong.


My dried out audio input filter capacitors look perfectly fine too! If you know your amplifier was stored in ideal conditions, i.e. an air conditioned house versus an attic, non-climate controlled storage, or garage, the capacitors may still be good. If not, I would look into replacing most, if not ALL of the electrolytic capacitors at a minimum!

Another thing you could encounter, as I have, is a sticking relay. That will drive you bonkers because it takes the Q out of IQ!:laugh: The last thing I have had go bad on some of these amplifiers that have just sat there for YEARS is the gain pot. Why the pot went bad, I'll never know, but a couple of them were useless for adjusting the gains. Basically, the gain was frozen in place where it was and turning the screw did NOTHING to adjust the gain on at least two of my old amplifiers. If it happens again, I am doing away with them! No gain resistor mod, FTW!:laugh:


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> My dried out audio input filter capacitors look perfectly fine too! If you know your amplifier was stored in ideal conditions, i.e. an air conditioned house versus an attic, non-climate controlled storage, or garage, the capacitors may still be good. If not, I would look into replacing most, if not ALL of the electrolytic capacitors at a minimum!
> 
> Another thing you could encounter, as I have, is a sticking relay. That will drive you bonkers because it takes the Q out of IQ!:laugh: The last thing I have had go bad on some of these amplifiers that have just sat there for YEARS is the gain pot. Why the *pot went bad*, I'll never know, but a couple of them were useless for adjusting the gains. Basically, the gain was frozen in place where it was and turning the screw did NOTHING to adjust the gain on at least two of my old amplifiers. If it happens again, I am doing away with them! No gain resistor mod, FTW!:laugh:


Thanks, I just got a perfectly/new 2121 off of ebay, for a steal. Seller told me it was in storage in a car for 18years, and it sure do look like it, but a perfectly sealed car. The only thing I notice is that this doesnt have the double epoxy board, its single sided. And on the bottom of the board (where all the soldering is done) the solder parts seem to have some brown sugar looking substance. Not rust but looks like brown/reddish sugar. Havent had the time to test it, but want to make sure everything is okay before powering it up.

Thats why I keep my pot in a glass container, just kidding lol.:laugh:


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The stuff you are seeing could be flux or rosin core solder.

Like Chad said, I wouldn't worry much about the resistors. The electrolytic caps...they should/need to be changed if you are planning on using the amp.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And there is a debate in the home amp world about bypass caps. Some swear by them and others swear at them. I tricked out the HSS and had a few left over from other projects, so I put them in the DSP-6 and 1000.4. In fact, the horn output from the DSP-6 only has film caps for coupling caps...and discrete class A opamps. The Rane (if I use it) will get the same treatment...well, not the class A opamps, but I will bias the OPA2107s into class A for that purpose.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

well, you see... I do tube amps too... never tried them in SS to see if it made a difference to be honest.. and in RF we use the ALL the time, not only for bypassing.. but for NOT bypassing  Small caps work wonders int he right places. Like across rectifiers, etc.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Nelson Pass uses Panasonic polycaps as bypasses across the FCs in his amps.

I've used them with good success across hexfreds in home applications too.


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## SUX 2BU (Oct 27, 2008)

a$$hole said:


> One of the channels was burnt out completely on the 5002 [ Hence why you never, ever.. buy someone elses problems
> 
> Where is rhe end of the story ?
> 
> ...



I'll have to ask him what happened with the sale but I believe he sold them, and redid the system entirely. Went with the then-new Rockford DSM40 and 60 amps, RF Pro 12s on the 60 and a 3-way front stage on a passive setup run off the 40. It sounded very nice and had loads more volume on than the LP's did on the previous system. He never regrets selling them; but only regrets buying the LP's.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

SUX 2BU said:


> I'll have to ask him what happened with the sale but I believe he sold them, and redid the system entirely. Went with the then-new Rockford DSM40 and 60 amps, RF Pro 12s on the 60 and a 3-way front stage on a passive setup run off the 40. It sounded very nice and had loads more volume on than the LP's did on the previous system. He never regrets selling them; but only regrets buying the LP's.


.....


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I won't say that I regret purchasing Linear Power, but I will admit that I was a naive when it came to the modifications! Regardless, I am going to let that dead horse just lay there now because there is no point in beating him until he revives again. 

OTOH, the major plus to the old school amps is that the ones I like were handmade in the USA. I find them much easier to work on than the current production stuff that comes from a land far, far away. Even better, they tend to go about 20 years, then for another $30 in parts, they should go another 20 years.


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## tinnitus (Apr 28, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I remember asking a question on here roughly seven months ago for someone to explain what exactly is done in the process of having a Linear Power amplifier modified. Sadly, the answers I received were inconsistent, to say the least, and TODAY my curiosity got the best of me!
> 
> One answer I was given is that the OPAMPS are changed.
> 
> ...


I have modified amps in the past similar to that,,

and yes changing or returning the torroidal coil will increase voltage output from the tank circuit... but the next step besides changing the caps,, is to replace the mosfets on the rail to handle higher voltage.. then you can replace the finals stage bipolars to ones that have a higher collector current capacity,, then rebias the emitters to stabilize them at the new voltage... 

basically what it does is if your rail is putting out 25v+- then your finals are seeing 50v sinusodial. not counting diode breakover voltages and other losses due to internal resistance of the circuits . if you re-turn the torroid and change the tank caps,, then you can increase the output voltage accross the rail up to 30v+- or more,,, thus giving your final output more signal swing... 

but the forward biasing on the final stages and even the input stages is set to the rail voltage so doing this means also re-biasing the entire circuits..

sometimes this is not very cost or time effective,,, 

the amps ive done this too were damaged,, and needed repair and we decided to beef them up as we went.. but these amps werent just 300 or 400 dollar amps either,,, one was an old cadence 2000w/[email protected] amplifier from early 2000s 
once rebuilt, we hooked it up to the oscilliscope and tested the output at different frequencies,,, we estimated that after increasing rail voltage by 25volts half sinus, our peak envelope output was at around 3600watts with a static resistance of 2 ohms
calculating rms on it brought it down some but still quit a substantial difference,, i think the total cost to do this was about 300$ we bought 2 new torroidal coils" I forget the turn ratio" new caps to build the oscillating circuit for the coil and mosfets, we purchased all new mosfets like 20 of them,, lol 

a crap load of new resistors,, and new toshiba bi-polar transistors,,

one problem we had was the thermal protection circuit kicking on all the time... this I didnt know how to fix,, a friend of mine did the fix for me,, I think he changed a resistor in the circuit to make up for the difference in temperature,, Im not sure.. but the current limiting switch had to be disabled and bypassed,,, this scared me,, so we added a couple of resistors and capacitors to the output stages to prevent thermal runnaway but this also sacrificed a small amount of power and some bandwidth,,,

but all in all it was a fun project... I would say though,, I would build a new one from the ground up before I redone another one ..lol


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## SUX 2BU (Oct 27, 2008)

Well the plus side is you know you had 20 yr old amps gone through an inspection process and verified that they will work. I have 2 Alpine 3545 amps (soon to be 3), 3 3539 amps, and 3 3025 amps all that are about 20 years old and I'm crossing my fingers that at least 1/2 will work properly when I install them!


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I won't say that I regret purchasing Linear Power, but I will admit that I was a naive when it came to the modifications! Regardless, I am going to let that dead horse just lay there now because there is no point in beating him until he revives again.
> 
> OTOH, the major plus to the old school amps is that the ones I like were handmade in the USA. I find them much easier to work on than the current production stuff that comes from a land far, far away. Even better, they tend to go about 20 years, then for another $30 in parts, they should go another 20 years.


How much you charge to mod them ? 

$50.00 sound about right ?

Iffn you need some amps modded ... here's your man 

:laugh: Bwa Ha ha Ha


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

a$$hole said:


> How much you charge to mod them ?
> 
> $50.00 sound about right ?
> 
> ...


Time + parts. 75 bucks an hour  In-state pays sales tax on parts.......


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

chad said:


> Time + parts. 75 bucks an hour  In-state pays sales tax on parts.......


Nah, I will just stick to replacing/upgrading MY capacitors with 105 degree Celsius versions. Maybe I will up the voltage or capacitance on the power supply rail caps a tick, but no rewinding transformers here. I just can't decide if I should parallel the original values on the power supply (i.e. use two per) OR just up them all together... 

Of course, I do have access to an electrical engineer who happens to be a family member, so I could always tap his brain for a resource. I will only do that as a last resort.


----------



## tomtomjr (Apr 24, 2008)

Ok... Now that I have all the LP users in the same place, another question. I have some 2502's and 5002's. I want to run one per coil of the 34" subwoofer. Which one is stronger? According to LP's ratings, the 2502's are 1400Wpeak, and the 5002's are 1100w peak. The 2502's look smaller than the 5002's, but are rated for more wattage. Peak is what I am after since I don't think I will be running the sub strong for more than a few seconds at a time. Any ideas LP guru's?


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I think that the 5002IQ isn't rated properly, but that is just me. I know it requires a 60 amp slow blow fuse and can pull close to 90 amps for a split second on a drawn out bass note!

I have a hard time believing that the 2502IQ will make its peak power for long without blowing that 40 amp fuse, but stranger things have happened! Sorry but I think 1,400 watts peak is its ISBL rating based on some engineering estimate and you are unlikely to ever see that amount of power.

Then again, that is just my opinion between the two amps and I am sure someone will come along to correct me shortly!


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I think that the 5002IQ isn't rated properly, but that is just me. I know it requires a 60 amp slow blow fuse and can pull close to 90 amps for a split second on a drawn out bass note!
> 
> *I have a hard time believing that the 2502IQ will make its peak power for long without blowing that 40 amp fuse, but stranger things have happened! *Sorry but I think 1,400 watts peak is its ISBL rating based on some engineering estimate and you are unlikely to ever see that amount of power.
> 
> Then again, that is just my opinion between the two amps and I am sure someone will come along to correct me shortly!


I asked Ray that same question, "why is the 2502IQ rated higher than the 5002IQ, and the 5002IQ has more TO3's?", he answered , because the 2502IQ is a newer board design and could produce the same power as a 5002/5002IQ/2.2HV with less parts. And that also the rating for the 5002 were made with mathematical formulas and are not exact but pretty close to actual ratings. And that the 2502IQ was tested with newer equipment, so rating are more accurate. 

That being said, I have plenty of 2502IQ's and they are way underrated. One 2502IQ (unmodded) can push two Cerwin Vega Strokers 12" (Single 4-Ohms each, 1000watts RMS)subwoofers like a pair of 8" subs. And the SQ was pretty dawm good compared to class D amps. The sound was like....... a theater.

*I do think its capable of producing 1400watts, but thats peak, meaning it will only do that in a hundread of a second, without losing any SQ. Sorta' like on a theater when a scary part come up and the noise level goes from 70db to 130db in a split second. And it sounds amazing.*


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

SUX 2BU said:


> Well the plus side is you know you had 20 yr old amps gone through an inspection process and verified that they will work. I have 2 Alpine 3545 amps (soon to be 3), 3 3539 amps, and 3 3025 amps all that are about 20 years old and I'm crossing my fingers that at least 1/2 will work properly when I install them!


Alpine used much better caps than LP, I can tell you that. I've used plenty of 35xx amps and still not seen a bad cap in my own. I have seen a few used hard I believe hot, and the input caps were bad. I ran fans on most of the ones I used because many of them run warm....especially when you run them 2 ohm and they are not rated for it...lol. I have a 3555 I just got caps for it has a bunch of DC, but have yet to see a leaking cap and have a few original ones that work/test perfectly. This 3555 shows signs of running hot or other abuse, but works. Also has been repaired before.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

sqshoestring said:


> Alpine used much better caps than LP, I can tell you that. I've used plenty of 35xx amps and still not seen a bad cap in my own. I have seen a few used hard I believe hot, and the input caps were bad. I ran fans on most of the ones I used because many of them run warm....especially when you run them 2 ohm and they are not rated for it...lol. I have a 3555 I just got caps for it has a bunch of DC, but have yet to see a leaking cap and have a few original ones that work/test perfectly. This 3555 shows signs of running hot or other abuse, but works. Also has been repaired before.


Sadly, just about every amplifier back in the day used higher grade capacitors than a Linear Power.

But getting back to the modification thing.... The 1502IQ mod addresses another common problem with Linear Power amplifiers... Stock, most LP power supplies sag under load. With the upgraded transformer and upgraded rail caps, it addresses that issue. 

Anyone want to design an external MOSFET power supply that can be linked to a LP amp, thus bypassing the stock power supply? IMHO that would be the ultimate modification!


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> Sadly, just about every amplifier back in the day used higher grade capacitors than a Linear Power.
> 
> But getting back to the modification thing.... The 1502IQ mod addresses another common problem with Linear Power amplifiers... Stock, most LP power supplies sag under load. With the upgraded transformer and upgraded rail caps, it addresses that issue.


But how well? Most rail sag is directly a result of the transformer. What exactly is the transformer mod? Some have indicated he just changes the number of windings? I don't really get that, unless it's to bump up the rail voltage (which wouldn't help with the "sag" issue). The rail caps make sense though.



> Anyone want to design an external MOSFET power supply that can be linked to a LP amp, thus bypassing the stock power supply? IMHO that would be the ultimate modification!


If you're gonna go to those extremes, just buy a better amp.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

MarkZ said:


> If you're gonna go to those extremes, just buy a better amp.


That is not the way in America because we like to squeeze that turnip until blood drips out! Of course I do agree with you in that it is much easier to get something a tad bit more modern and designed better.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Just pick up a newer used amp for $40 and chop the PS out. Will have to figure out the protection circuits and get the right rail voltage of course, but likely the easiest way.

I read a thread someplace about beefing the PS in the 1002s I have, but do not recall if they said any specifics. Newer PS run faster and have better rectifiers, but I don't know enough about them to build one or mod one without getting some help. Getting the core right is sort of a pain from what I hear, otherwise they are not that complex far as the electronics. The 494/594 IC used now is pretty simple to implement.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

sqshoestring said:


> Just pick up a newer used amp for $40 and chop the PS out. Will have to figure out the protection circuits and get the right rail voltage of course, but likely the easiest way.
> 
> I read a thread someplace about beefing the PS in the 1002s I have, but do not recall if they said any specifics. Newer PS run faster and have better rectifiers, but I don't know enough about them to build one or mod one without getting some help. Getting the core right is sort of a pain from what I hear, otherwise they are not that complex far as the electronics. The 494/594 IC used now is pretty simple to implement.


Can always just yank the transformer and put something else in there. The key there is whether or not there's enough space to accomodate something beefier, and to make sure the windings are appropriate for the switching frequency and rail voltage. And you're right, rectifiers can be done too.

But I'd just buy a different amp. 

I'm sort of onboard with the original sentiment of this thread. Modding is kinda pricey for what you get. As chad pointed out, the pricing is reasonable for what has to be done. But sheesh, how much of an improvement is $150 buying you?

I'm thinking about ditching my 10+ yr old ESX amps in the not-too-distant future. They're good amps, but I think there's something to be said for new over *old*. Fresh caps, grease, pads, and _all_ the smoke still INSIDE the plastic.

If I can get in good with a machinist, I'd roll my own. Btw, can we all agree that the machinists of the world have us DIYers by the balls? If you're buddies with a machinist you can do ANYTHING.


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## SUX 2BU (Oct 27, 2008)

Would the $150 though fix a blown-up amp or just upgrade one that's working already? Fixing one that isn't working seems like a somewhat reasonable cost to me, if you got the amp cheap in the first place due to it not working.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

SUX 2BU said:


> Would the $150 though fix a blown-up amp or just upgrade one that's working already? Fixing one that isn't working seems like a somewhat reasonable cost to me, if you got the amp cheap in the first place due to it not working.


Nope!! $150 is the mod on a working amp, and it varies based on the amp.

The repair cost is seperate... but... if you have a repair and a mod done you get the repair for half price.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

imjustjason said:


> Nope!! $150 is the mod on a working amp, and it varies based on the amp.
> 
> The repair cost is seperate... but... if you have a repair and a mod done you get the *repair for half price.*


Just better hope it doesn't come back from repair with a chunk of metal floating around on the circuit board! 










My bad, I said I wasn't going to go there... whoops.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

that looks like a peice of solder that was liquid and dropped and splattered...


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## I Need Bass (Jun 2, 2009)

I would love to have a 1502IQ...it would go great with my old as hell system in my '93 civic...


USD 622's
USD D200 HLCD's
USD PDX
Lanzar 12OA , in IB 
LP 4503IQ
LP 1503IQ

...if you would like to get off one, let me know :laugh:


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

guitarsail said:


> that looks like a peice of solder that was liquid and dropped and splattered...


Look where it was stuck:



















Yep, it came back from being "repaired and modified" that way!


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

NICE!>...was it touching both terminals of the cap? I'm assuming not..


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

guitarsail said:


> NICE!>...was it touching both terminals of the cap? I'm assuming not..


It was just touching one of the legs.


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## bass_lover1 (Dec 10, 2005)

SUX 2BU said:


> Would the $150 though fix a blown-up amp or just upgrade one that's working already? Fixing one that isn't working seems like a somewhat reasonable cost to me, if you got the amp cheap in the first place due to it not working.


Repairs are a bit cheaper than the mods. Modding my 652I will cost me 125, if it were broken fixing it would cost 85. I'm sure Ray would do both for less than 210.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> Can always just yank the transformer and put something else in there. The key there is whether or not there's enough space to accomodate something beefier, and to make sure the windings are appropriate for the switching frequency and rail voltage. And you're right, rectifiers can be done too.
> 
> But I'd just buy a different amp.
> 
> ...


I agree, except you have to look pretty hard for as well built an amp today. A lot of old amps are better than most new amps, excepting if I wanted class D I'd run an older amp any day and just slap new caps in it. Is my preference to mostly run other amps than LP that are not on the 'hot list' of old school top pricing. Many amps older than mid 90s are quite nice inside.

I used to machine and weld and had another guy with access to CNCs. Made some cool stuff but not for amps really. But yeah, way fun to make stuff. That is leaving the country unfortunately, there used to be machine shops here like 7-11s in Vegas. And it will get ugly this summer with the automakers deal. I can't really fit a bridgeport in my building though, a welder I do have and I do know a guy with a shop at home.

Last I heard an amp maker that starts with 'Z' was switching production to China and they were about the last one.


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## I Need Bass (Jun 2, 2009)

Zed...man did they fall off, but back in the 90's a lot of amps used their boards and were some monsters!!!


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## I Need Bass (Jun 2, 2009)

So let me get this rite...all I would have to do to upgrade my stock 1502IQ is solder in bigger power and ground? Maybe some new caps? What does that do?


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I Need Bass said:


> So let me get this rite...all I would have to do to upgrade my stock 1502IQ is solder in bigger power and ground? Maybe some new caps? What does that do?


There is more to it than that, but the 1502IQ mod appears to beef up the power supply section. In theory, this would allow the amplifier to output a tad bit more power by rewinding the transformer and upping the capacitance feeding the power supply. 

Of course, if you don't know what you are doing, I highly advise against playing with the transformer and/or upping the capacitance. If you do it wrong, your mythical Ess Que mods on your Ell Pee will be released in a puff of magic smoke!


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## Bom (Jul 5, 2007)

Few cheap tweaks are changing coupling caps, resistors, and opamps.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

As Chris has pointed out > Output sags . . . when input sags 

iffn your electrical system cannot keep up = fail , Fial , NO GOOD, etc..,

trust me . . . if U dot not have the muscles to lift said weight , it will not be lifted . . . period !!


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## soundlevel (Feb 17, 2009)

hmmmmm, interesting


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

soundlevel said:


> hmmmmm, interesting


Modds differ from model to model. But their usually: few caps replaced (about 4-8), a mosfet or two added, a couple of wima caps added, one op-amps replace, and a few more winds on the teroid. It might be easy replacing and adding the components, but when it comes to the teroid, good luck. I rather pay Ray 150.00 and let him do his magic.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Toroidals are difficult to engineer. Note there is a difference in your vehicle power supply from your battery/alternator sagging under load and the amp's power supply sagging internally. Just picking numbers lets say your amp is running on 12v and makes +/-36v rails for the outputs. If your car sags to 11v you might get 33v rails because it is a multiplier, and that is why most amps being unregulated make more power on 14v input. If the amp PS sags you might have 12v to the amp but the rails drop to 32v under high load. Most amps do this some anyway just because that is how it works (not that easy to regulate it perfectly, or not cost viable to bother with it), plus there are many loss factors that can be complex. Anyway some amps they let this happen to limit max power to the outputs on purpose, some might be bad or old designs that don't work as well, it all depends and you need to analyze what is happening and why before you change things....then end up with changes that work as it is easy to mess up the formula and let out the smoke or create noise or affect other components not designed to work with more voltage. Note that a lot of old amps like 80s amps were before the days of mosfets that work better in PS, in general. They still work though. Modding an amp for higher rails might blow the outputs, or maybe they are still within their limits, or maybe nobody abuses them that hard to find out. This is only an issue at clipping anyway, if you are looking for SQ it should not matter if your amp is large enough.

It is much like modding a car for more HP, will you pay $1,000 (or whatever it is) to get 10% more HP in your car? Would you be better off spending $4K more on the hotter version of the car that has 40% more HP plus more suspension, bigger tires/wheels, ground effects, fog lights, hood scoop, etc? It is up you in the end there really is no right or wrong answer. I agree someone should not misrepresent what something is, on the other hand many don't understand the subject that well anyway and may think it has been misrepresented. I'm not saying anything here was or not because I've never looked into it as I'm not that into LP amps or performance modding amps these days. And I still have not finished building my load to test the LP I have at the moment.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Wow, I can't believe this thread is still going. It is really strange since I am now *NINE* Linear Power amplifiers lighter with one lowly 5002 left to go.  I'll probably be re-listing it soon since I had THREE different buyers back out on me.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> Wow, I can't believe this thread is still going. It is really strange since I am now *NINE* Linear Power amplifiers lighter with one lowly 5002 left to go.  I'll probably be re-listing it soon since I had THREE different buyers back out on me.


PM me a good deal/price and I wont back out, lol. You know am good for it as I already bought 5 LP's from you. Which makes me about 16 LPs heavier.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Doh, I accidentally deleted the schematics along the way.


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## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

*Post them up over here too: Linear Power / Blues Car Audio - Car Audio Forum - Car Audio's Forum! *


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Sure wish I could afford those Blues components.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

So you like overpaying for Credence drivers? Well the tweeter does look like a Seas....


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

ChrisB said:


> So you like overpaying for Credence drivers? Well the tweeter does look like a Seas....


This is coming from someone who states ****ty new Clarion amps sound better than a widely recognized, still very popular SQ line.

Take this guys comments with a grain of salt seeing as he's proved to not have anything to say with facts or true education behind it.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

jimmy2345 said:


> This is coming from someone who states ****ty new Clarion amps sound better than a widely recognized, still very popular SQ line.


Prove to me that it doesn't sound different using actual measurements besides your ears!



jimmy2345 said:


> Take this guys comments with a grain of salt seeing as he's proved to not have anything to say with facts or true education behind it.


True, please take what I say with a grain of salt because there are two sides to every story. Just because I see it as a snake oil scam doesn't mean someone else will. Just look at the ridiculous things "audiophiles" spend money on claiming they can hear a difference while feeling justified in being parted from their hard earned cash.

If you want to pay $950 for an 8" woofer and a tweeter, please feel free to do so. It's your money. I am sure they are going to take MECA and/or IASCA by STORM this year in the SQ competitions because they are that great.

If you want to pay hundreds of dollars to send your amplifiers off for modifications that are totally useless from an audible standpoint, again please feel free to do so, because it is your money.


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

ChrisB said:


> Prove to me that it doesn't sound different using actual measurements besides your ears!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Change the subject to your immense hatred for a speaker you have never heard? Makes NO sense to someone WITH COMMON SENSE!!

Now show us all the facts behind your statements that the new Blues drivers are rebadged Credence Drivers and Seas Tweeters.


As far as LP....why would I need another measurement besides my ears and the numerous other people who help them gain their reputation by using their ears? There is a reason a 20 year old amp can still hit ebay and sell for $1k. It's not because a computer screen states it's good.

A new Alpine 9887 has alot of the same specs as a 7909....now tell me the 9887 sounds better. Go away with your hatred. No one wants to hear it and I am sure others are fed up with it.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

jimmy2345 said:


> Change the subject to your immense hatred for a speaker you have never heard? Makes NO sense to someone WITH COMMON SENSE!!
> 
> Now show us all the facts behind your statements that the new Blues drivers are rebadged Credence Drivers and Seas Tweeters.


Prove to me they aren't.


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

ChrisB said:


> Prove to me they aren't.


You made the claim. I think your immaturity and ignorance proves enough.

Good day.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

jimmy2345 said:


> As far as LP....why would I need another measurement besides my ears and the numerous other people who help them gain their reputation by using their ears? There is a reason a 20 year old amp can still hit ebay and sell for $1k. It's not because a computer screen states it's good.


IF they were so great, why did the company shut its doors in the early 2000s? The only reason they command such a high price is because they are no longer made and people are relying on their nostalgia factor.  That is IT!



jimmy2345 said:


> A new Alpine 9887 has alot of the same specs as a 7909....now tell me the 9887 sounds better.


You do realize that this is going in a car, don't you? Better sounding is relative at 70 MPH in a vehicle with a 60 plus decibel noise floor. Also, I don't sit under my carport for hours and hours on end listening to music in my car because I have a house for that. 

How is the 7909 at playing recorded CDs? How is it at interfacing with modern devices such as ipods, phones, XM, Sirius, etc.? Better yet, how easy is it to come across a transport or a control panel for a 7909 if one should happen to die?

I am sure you have frequency response plots, to show that the 7909 is sonically superior to the Pioneer Stage 4 or any other modern day head unit connected to a MS-8, BitOne, 3Sixty, DSP6, or (insert name here) modern day processing unit.



jimmy2345 said:


> Go away with your hatred.


The way I am looking at it, it is YOU that is hating on ME. The only reason this thread from LAST YEAR was bumped up was because I accidentally deleted the schematics for the 1502IQ. 



jimmy2345 said:


> No one wants to hear it and I am sure others are fed up with it.


You know, you can go into your user CP and choose to ignore all posts from me. It may save you a lot of heartache and grief in the long run.


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

Thanks!! You are useful for something....helping people reach the ignore button on your nonsense.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

jimmy2345 said:


> You made the claim. I think your immaturity and ignorance proves enough.


See Below!

Granted, I may be wrong about the Credence thing, but the baskets between a 

Blues sub









and a Credence sub









Sure do look strikingly similar!

Of course, it won't be the last time I am wrong as I am often wrong a lot.

EDIT: Aside from the cone material, paper versus poly, the rest of the above Blues driver appears strikingly similar to a pair of Credence built Kicker Competition subwoofers that I owned in the early 90s.

EDIT2: Here is a similar, but not exact tweeter: SEAS, H1396 - 1396 by: SEAS Prestige - Meniscus Audio Group, Inc.|

Don't worry though, if I find the exact one, I will post a link to it! 

OR maybe this: http://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=138&products_id=541

EDIT3: So I was wrong, it is a LPG tweeter...

EDIT4: Jimmy, Jimmy..... come out, come out wherever you are!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I can assure you that if you dropped a 7909 in my car it would sound much worse compared to the current 9887. I'd bet a 6 pack right now.


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

ChrisB said:


> See Below!
> 
> Granted, I may be wrong about the Credence thing, but the baskets between a
> 
> ...


Do you expect us to believe that car audio brands just buy from a buildhouse, put their brand label on it and charge a huge markup? 
I bet it would take you longer than 3 minutes to cite 30 examples of this happening. :surprised:


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

chad said:


> I can assure you that if you dropped a 7909 in my car it would sound much worse compared to the current 9887. I'd bet a 6 pack right now.


Same here. Goodbye electronic crossover and goodbye time alignment. Also, goodbye to burned CDs since some 7909s REFUSED to play them. I could live without the iPod but it sure is convenient to have 120 gigabytes of mostly apple lossless encoded music to carry around versus the physical discs.



OSN said:


> Do you expect us to believe that car audio brands just buy from a buildhouse, put their brand label on it and charge a huge markup?
> I bet it would take you longer than 3 minutes to cite 30 examples of this happening. :surprised:


Wasn't that the whole spirit of DIYMA? Finding raw drivers that perform as good as the high dollar sets in order to save a few dollars?

Also, a greedy American company. Say it isn't so!


----------



## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

chad said:


> I can assure you that if you dropped a 7909 in my car it would sound much worse compared to the current 9887. I'd bet a 6 pack right now.


There is a reason your 9887 will no longer be talked about a year from now and it's not because people have alzheimers.

Mediocre at best.


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## 8675309 (Jan 8, 2007)

I will say this from personal experience. It is one of the best sounding out of the box comp sets you will hear! 

Don’t let the looks fool you! They spent a lot of time testing drivers and building crossovers to get the best results. 

The other cool thing is, the Blues Linear guys are die hard sound guys and love what they do. They are trying to achieve something without using a lot of processing. They are super nice guys and are a great addition to the competition circuits. They care about keeping the sport alive.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

ChrisB said:


> *IF they were so great, why did the company shut its doors in the early 2000s?* The only reason they command such a high price is because they are no longer made and people are relying on their nostalgia factor. That is IT!


*I always wondered why companies go under , thanks for explaining it to me.*

*Hmmm*

Is TC Sounds Inc. done forever?
15 posts - 3 authors - Last post: Jan 7, 2008
I hate TC Sounds, Inc, Thilo Stompler, Ron Brown and Thilo mother, whose name is Christa Stompler. They have very very bad credit.

TC Sounds Going out of business? - AVS Forum
Jan 7, 2008 ... 1)Thilo Stompler and Christa Stompler will be summonsed. ... I hate TC Sounds, Inc, Thilo Stompler, Ron Brown and Thilo mother, ...
*
C*heck out this crap that Chris will tell you is absolute garbage !

*. . . why else would they close their doors* 

TC Sounds Facility Tour [audiojunkies]

Windshield Flex On The LMS 18s  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27iA_O2n7aI

TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 18" Ultimate Low Frequency Driver
This will simply outclass any subwoofer available on the consumer market today...introducing the newest top dog!

Designed to be absolutely precise, and absolutely loud is the LMS Ultra 5400. The TC Sounds flagship is the most linear lowest distortion highest displacement low frequency driver in the world. Nothing, and we mean nothing, will outperform this driver for low-end displacement, ultra-low distortion, or SPL. Used in some of the best recording studios and high-end audio systems.

Specifications: • Factory recommended amplification: 5,000 watts RMS • VCdia: 4" • Le: 2.8 mH • Impedance: 2+2 ohms • Re: 3.78 ohms • Frequency range: 15 - 150 Hz • Fs: 20.5 Hz • SPL: 89.7 dB • Vas: 8.50 cu. ft. • Qms: 7.6 • Qes: 0.34 • Qts: 0.33 • Xmax: 38.1 • Dimensions: A: 18.52", B: 16.83", C: 11.54"

*Ahh . . . The Nostalgia*


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

a$$hole said:


> *Ahh . . . The Nostalgia*


Penn & Teller did an excellent episode on nostalgia... Care to guess what they concluded?:laugh:


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Gillette Penn on Linear Power . . . :laugh:




ChrisB said:


> Penn & Teller did an excellent episode on nostalgia... Care to guess what they concluded?:laugh:


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

jimmy2345 said:


> There is a reason your 9887 will no longer be talked about a year from now and it's not because people have alzheimers.
> 
> Mediocre at best.


Dude really?


Take off the spandex and the wife beater and hear me.


_Because you are not my kid 
_

I've lived before and thru the 7909 and I realize **** moves on. This IS NOT rocket appliance.

That 6 pack still stands on my comment earlier.

The 7909 sounded GREAT back then, when CD's were so cool and you were so baller that you could spatter paint a CD and put it on your ****ing rear-view mirror. 

But, we have moved on and the 9887 is less finicky, MUCH LESS finicky, and trumps it in all ways. I've benched the ****er, listened to the ****er, and put the ****er thru hell. Much more hell than you could put a used as **** 7909 thru right now.

A system, properly tuned with a 9887 will BLOW THE **** AWAY a system with a 7909 and a damn coustic XM3 crossover.

Spandex is gone man.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

chad said:


> Dude really?
> 
> 
> Take off the spandex and the wife beater and hear me.
> ...


:laugh:


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

Ignorance at it's best. Sound is what we are talking about. Not being finicky. I know they are finicky these days. I own two that I want to throw against the wall at this very moment. However, that doesn't take away from the way they make the music sound when they do play....something any new Alpine can't do. There is no sonic fidelity in the new headunits and thus the very reason why you have to eq them to death to be satisfied.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Send me a 7909 and I will put it up to a 9887 in a mastering room, with some well respected, VERY finicky ears in the industry, matched A/B. I will not be present for the listening.

Same CD, tone controls will be electronically defeated.. NOT DETENT on the 7909.

6 pack still stands.


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

chad said:


> Send me a 7909 and I will put it up to a 9887 in a mastering room, with some well respected, VERY finicky ears in the industry, matched A/B. I will not be present for the listening.
> 
> Same CD, tone controls will be electronically defeated.. NOT DETENT on the 7909.
> 
> 6 pack still stands.


I think you are wasting your time chad because he called me on the Blues Car Audio using Credence thing then didn't have the gall to prove me wrong other than to say I was wrong.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Aaron Clinton said:


> *Post them up over here too: Linear Power / Blues Car Audio - Car Audio Forum - Car Audio's Forum! *


From here ^^^^




> There are no current models of amps being produced, we are building a few things from scratch by hand under the old model names, refurbishing other old models, adding modifications to update the amps and improve performance and SQ, and also doing basic repairs of the older models.
> 
> The only things we currently are production on are the Blues speaker line (Blues is a product line of Linear Power Inc.)which currently has the
> 
> ...


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

jimmy2345 said:


> As far as LP....why would I need another measurement besides my ears and the numerous other people who help them gain their reputation by using their ears? There is a reason a 20 year old amp can still hit ebay and sell for $1k. It's not because a computer screen states it's good.


Um, dude, you aren't getting it. We ARE the "other people." Chris and I have owned at least a dozen Linear Power amps between us.

Here's my list

1) 901
2) 952
3) DPS350
4) DPSQ50 (find one rarer than that)
5) Three 2.2HVs (two were modded by Ray)

The only reason they fetch high prices is because we desperately wanted them, but couldn't afford them, back when we were making $10 an hour in high school. Now we can. Nostalgia is a *****. 

I also use a Clarion DPX11551 on my sub. I sold a 2.2HV for $600 and paid $200 for the Clarion. That gave me the $400 with which to purchase my Ultimo. Guess what? The Clarion is more efficient, has much more power, and has a lower noise floor--and it was $400 less! Both amps that I had Ray mod came back sounding louder than they did before I sent them out. I still had one unmolested 2.2HV to use as a reference. It was the quietest of the bunch.


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

Your crappy install says alot....


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## Luke352 (Jul 24, 2006)

jimmy2345 said:


> Your crappy install says alot....


You really are an arrogant know it all aren't you? 

What is quite obvious is that you have absolutely no technical understanding and hence should keep quiet and you might actually learn something. Oh just read a post by you in the ported vs sealed thread and the amount of fail in it is fantastic.


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

Luke352 said:


> You really are an arrogant know it all aren't you?
> 
> What is quite obvious is that you have absolutely no technical understanding and hence should keep quiet and you might actually learn something. Oh just read a post by you in the ported vs sealed thread and the amount of fail in it is fantastic.


For you to make such a judgement about me when you know nothing of my history, who I am, or my expertise and knowledge really is ignorant of you. 

I am not the one that came on here bashing a product I have never heard, nor bash a product for over a year in the hopes that someone will believe my idiotic rants. 

We all like what we like.....some of us because we have used 90% of the equipment released in the past 20 years in the proper environment (me) and have proven with our own ears what really is great, and others who buy a product because the masses on DIY do and then want their money back in their pocket when the equipment doesn't make them nut on their steering wheel in a crappy install.....so they rant that the product sucks and then buy the cheapest equipment on the market and claim it's better.


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## Luke352 (Jul 24, 2006)

jimmy2345 said:


> For you to make such a judgement about me when you know nothing of my history, who I am, or my expertise and knowledge really is ignorant of you.
> 
> I don't care since you don't know me either, but what is quite obvious is that you are arrogant! Everybody run it's Audio_Scam in disquise
> 
> ...


See my reply in red.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

jimmy2345 said:


> For you to make such a judgement about me when you know nothing of my history, who I am, or my expertise and knowledge really is ignorant of you.
> 
> I am not the one that came on here bashing a product I have never heard, nor bash a product for over a year in the hopes that someone will believe my idiotic rants.
> 
> We all like what we like.....some of us because we have used 90% of the equipment released in the past 20 years in the proper environment (me) and have proven with our own ears what really is great, and others who buy a product because the masses on DIY do and then want their money back in their pocket when the equipment doesn't make them nut on their steering wheel in a crappy install.....so they rant that the product sucks and then buy the cheapest equipment on the market and claim it's better.


Do you often wake up on the stupid side of bed or is this the exception?

Now let's showcase your knowledge. Please tell me how the installation of my amps contributes to their sound? I'm dying to hear this. You are saying that, because this was a functional and not aesthetically pleasing installation, my amps were noisy? Would you care to prove this? You seem awfully keen on proof in this thread. Go ahead, provide me one modicum of quantifiable proof that there was some sonic drawback to my installation. It's strange that the amps I used to replace my LPs were quiet in the identical spot with the same wiring. 

You really are a tool, you know that? We've already shown you that we have as much or more experience with Linear Power amps than you do. How is it that you are not seeing the point? You got it exactly right. We sold our Linear Power amps when we realized that we paid high prices for nostalgia's sake and got nothing for it except a 20 year old amp full of failing and noisy parts. Why pay $600 for an old amp that can't do the job any better than a $150 new amp. That's idiotic!

FYI, the Clarion retailed for $800, but we all bought them when they were blown out by Crutchfield for an unbelievable $199. They were certainly not the cheapest amp out there.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

jimmy2345 said:


> I am not the one that came on here bashing a product I have never heard, nor bash a product for over a year in the hopes that someone will believe my idiotic rants.


Uh, I actually owned AND USED the brand of amplifiers I am bashing and saw strikingly similar traits between an overpriced line of speakers and a certain US build house. You know what? There are OTHER amplifiers from that same era that aren't as overpriced and do just as good of a job as the almighty fabled Linear Power.

As for the overpriced, re-badged, Credence woofers and LPG tweeter, maybe there is added value in the passive crossover network. Unfortunately, I wouldn't know nor care since I have no use for passive crossover networks.



jimmy2345 said:


> We all like what we like.....some of us because we have used 90% of the equipment released in the past 20 years in the proper environment (me) and have proven *with our own ears* <Snip>


There you go YET AGAIN talking about YOUR OWN EARS with NO empirical data to back up your claims.

The funny thing is that I used to be just like you until believing in these imaginary SQ myths and my own ears until my eyes were opened.

EDIT: Since you are talking about experience and what not.

You said:


jimmy2345 said:


> This is coming from someone who states ****ty new Clarion amps sound better than a widely recognized, still very popular SQ line.


Have you ever used this "****ty" (your words not mine) Clarion subwoofer amplifier in one of your installs? If so, what didn't you like about it? If not, please tell me you aren't bashing a product that you NEVER used.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

I have to agree with Chris and Mooble, I myself own a bunch of Linear Power amps. I know it has something to do with memories of when I was a kid and not beign able to buy even their smallest product. 

Now as far as the hearing tests and data sheets, I have none. I have own many amps and before I had any LP's my favorite was the JBL BP1200.1 (yes the powerhouse) and the Rockford X5 (the new ones that look like alien ships). But I have own MTX, Kenwood, Kicker amps and YES I notice a difference between my other amps and my LP's. I personally liked the way the bass is deeper and cleaner. But it could also be the new woofers I am NOW using. I now use Cerwin Strokers (1st gen) and that could be the reason why the bass is cleaner, not sure.

I know I said this before, but I bought a JBL GTO1200 (something like that, it was 748watts RMS at 4-ohms) and I hooked it up to a 4-ohm Stroker and it sounded okay, but within 15 minutes the amp BLEW SMOKE. Threw it away, and when I tried the same subwoofer with a LP 2502IQ it pushed the woofer better, louder, deeper, and cleaner. Since then I would rather use LP's as they have proven to me to be better than the rest. 

I would like to see another 250watt amp push a 12" 1000watt Stroker and without sounding horrible and getting hot. Or for more pleasure, TWO 12" Strokers (since I also hooked two 12's to the 2502IQ).


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

TrickyRicky said:


> and when I tried the same subwoofer with a LP it pushed the woofer better, louder, deeper, and cleaner. Since then I would rather use LP's as they have proven to me to be better than the rest.


*
Perfect !*


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I installed hundreds of the black x02 and xx02 LPs new. I didn't think they were great on the top end back then and used them accordingly. We used SS D series amps for highs. However the LPs had power, few amps could match them for output at the time, that we sold, maybe RF was comparable the punch amps did well. A 2002 LP would dust a SS D200 on subs, so guess what we sold/used the most. I've since learned the old LP tend to soft clip by what I can tell, and do have a different sound at clipping that is tube like IMHO. Even if you don't want tube sound or whatever, amps that do this are IMO more usable you can run them right to the edge easily while other amps sound like crap at clipping and you have to back off.

I don't use them due to cost and I use class D on subs now anyway. They must be one of the most durable amps ever, except some old alpines I have that have never been touched, but alpine made few 35xx amps with much power most are small. Even SS only made a 200 at the time and LP was making the 5002, a real monster at the time we had the RF rep come in with subs that could handle it.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

sqshoestring said:


> They must be one of the most durable amps ever, except some old alpines I have that have never been touched, but alpine made few 35xx amps with much power most are small. Even SS only made a 200 at the time and LP was making the 5002, a real monster at the time we had the RF rep come in with subs that could handle it.


I completely agree. LP were well made with top notch parts for their day. They were overbuilt and it shows. That's why they are still working 25 years later. I don't think anyone can take that away from Linear Power. That is why they sold for so much back in the day.

The issue I think most of the detractors have is paying top dollar today for a used amp that's older than many of the forum members. It's just not fair to compare an aging legend with a modern amp; parts wear out, power supplies get more efficient, etc.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

jimmy2345 said:


> For you to make such a judgement about me when you know nothing of my history, who I am, or my expertise and knowledge really is ignorant of you.


We all know what your expertise is. Jack ****, that's what. How do I know this? By reading the stupid **** you've written in this thread. Starting with your LP nuthugging based on audio myths, and including your critique of someone's install based on a picture of amps. You're clueless. We can extrapolate.


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## rommelrommel (Apr 11, 2007)

jimmy2345 said:


> For you to make such a judgement about me when *you know nothing of my history, who I am, or my expertise and knowledge *really is ignorant of you.


Dave, is that you?


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

jimmy2345 said:


> Your crappy install says alot....


alot isn't even a ****ing word


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> We all know what your expertise is. Jack ****, that's what. How do I know this? By reading the stupid **** you've written in this thread. Starting with your LP nuthugging based on audio myths, and including your critique of someone's install based on a picture of amps. You're clueless. We can extrapolate.


I didn't base my opinion of MOOBLES ****ty install based on that amp rack (if that's what you want to call it) picture. I have seen his full install previously.

He has an Ultimo in a box facing the front of his car with his back seat either removed, or down. Soundwaves free to move into his trunk, and also forward. The type of install that needs work, and then want's to judge amplifiers, and talk **** about them, while being tested in a less than optimum install.


The funny thing is....all this started by an idiot that started talking about speakers he has never heard, can't afford, and would say they suck before they even reached his doorstep. Those are the type of opinions you people trust and agree with. Now who is the "nuthugger".


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

jimmy2345 said:


> I didn't base my opinion of MOOBLES ****ty install based on that amp rack (if that's what you want to call it) picture. I have seen his full install previously.
> 
> He has an Ultimo in a box facing the front of his car with his back seat either removed, or down. Soundwaves free to move into his trunk, and also forward. The type of install that needs work, and then want's to judge amplifiers, and talk **** about them, while being tested in a less than optimum install.
> 
> ...


FFS dude, this post is so full of fail, I don't even know where to start. 
I'll just arbitrarily start with soundwaves. WTF does 'soundwaves free
to move into his trunk' even mean? It has to be infinite baffle to run a
front-facing sub?


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

jimmy2345 said:


> The funny thing is....all this started by an idiot that started talking about speakers he has never heard, can't afford, and would say they suck before they even reached his doorstep. Those are the type of opinions you people trust and agree with. Now who is the "nuthugger".


Correction, this all started out with me (the idiot) calling them overpriced Credence drivers which you have NOT been able to disprove. Stop trying to focus attention away from the fact that I called you on it and you still have yet to respond to me.


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

OSN said:


> FFS dude, this post is so full of fail, I don't even know where to start.
> I'll just arbitrarily start with soundwaves. WTF does 'soundwaves free
> to move into his trunk' even mean? It has to be infinite baffle to run a
> front-facing sub?



Lol. And I failed? Are you slow? That is the point exactly.


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

ChrisB said:


> Correction, this all started out with me (the idiot) calling them overpriced Credence drivers which you have NOT been able to disprove. Stop trying to focus attention away from the fact that I called you on it and you still have yet to respond to me.


I am sorry. I don't understand your backwards way of thinking. Normally, when someone makes a claim about something they have the burden to prove their claim. That being you. A mere insufficient picture of a basket, that 50 different speaker manufacturers used in the early 90's doesn't prove anything. The overuse of any one particular basket was a common thing back then. If you did understand speaker design, you would know that you can't tell how a speaker sounds, or is internally designed by looking at it. 

From what I have acquired thusfar, I will no longer post on this thread. The absence of rational forward thinking people really lacks here and thus would be a further waste of time.

Birds of a feather flock together. ChrisB; you sure do have alot of nuthuggers.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

jimmy2345 said:


> I am sorry. I don't understand your backwards way of thinking. Normally, when someone makes a claim about something they have the burden to prove their claim. That being you. A mere insufficient picture of a basket, that 50 different speaker manufacturers used in the early 90's doesn't prove anything. The overuse of any one particular basket was a common thing back then. If you did understand speaker design, you would know that you can't tell how a speaker sounds, or is internally designed by looking at it.
> 
> From what I have acquired thusfar, I will no longer post on this thread. The absence of rational forward thinking people really lacks here and thus would be a further waste of time.
> 
> Birds of a feather flock together. ChrisB; you sure do have alot of nuthuggers.


I guess you missed the post where I linked to the LPG tweeter that was the SAME exact tweeter that Blues is selling? Or the fact that the woofers use the same basket and motor assembly as the ones that Credence is blowing out for $15?

Granted, I know Credence will build woofers to spec because I know someone who used to use them for his speakers. So YES, the ones from Blues can be slightly different. But to say that there is intrinsic value in selling a set of components for $950 when the woofers themselves will only run $70 max in bulk and the tweeter will run roughly $20 to $30 in bulk.... Well... I just don't buy that.

Don't get me wrong, research and passive crossovers are worth something, but not an additional $750 of markup per set. That business model may have worked before the advent of the internet, in 1989 or so, but it surely won't work in the information age.:greedy::greedy::greedy::greedy:


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

jimmy2345 said:


> I didn't base my opinion of MOOBLES ****ty install based on that amp rack (if that's what you want to call it) picture. I have seen his full install previously.
> 
> He has an Ultimo in a box facing the front of his car with his back seat either removed, or down. Soundwaves free to move into his trunk, and also forward. The type of install that needs work, and then want's to judge amplifiers, and talk **** about them, while being tested in a less than optimum install.
> 
> ...


You, still.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

jimmy2345 said:


> From what I have acquired thusfar, I will no longer post on this thread. The absence of rational forward thinking people really lacks here and thus would be a further waste of time.


You're absolutely right. This place is full of backward thinking people. You really shouldn't stick around DIYMA. It's awful. I'm being absolutely serious. You should find another site with smarter people. Might as well just cancel your account.

<fingers crossed>


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

MarkZ said:


> You're absolutely right. This place is full of backward thinking people. You really shouldn't stick around DIYMA. It's awful. I'm being absolutely serious. You should find another site with smarter people. Might as well just cancel your account.
> 
> <fingers crossed>


I'll bet you chad's 6 pack of beer that he sticks around to spread myths like:

"The Alpine 7909 is the bestest because my ears say so"

"LP stands for Ess Que because my ears told me so"

and my new favorite: 

"Paper cones sound most natural to me compared to subwoofers made with other materials. I don't know why, but I like what I like."


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

I was being totally serious. We're not at his...um...level when it comes to audio, so he's just going to find himself getting frustrated with our simple-minded views and there will probably be lots of flame wars as a result. He's probably better off finding a forum that's more in tune with his own thinking. Save everybody, including him, a lot of grief.

Is this breaking the new and improved rules? I don't know. I'm trying to be helpful.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I'd like to think that I managed to evolve quite a bit since joining this forum and re-hashing a friendship with a former speaker builder in the area. This forum combined with a couple of visits over coffee made me realize how much money I've wasted on BS, marketing hype, and lies over the years.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

Where do these guys keep coming from? We get rid of one and another one comes out of the woodwork.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

We're getting brimered again boys


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

I think he's referring to the cancellation that sometimes accompanies having your cone far away from the back of the trunk. If you have a big enough trunk, it can be a quarter to half of a wavelength or so. It boggles my mind that he would think that THIS is what separates good installs from bad installs. Nonideal? Sure Make or break? L-****in-O-L.


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## rommelrommel (Apr 11, 2007)

jimmy2345 said:


> From what I have acquired thusfar, I will no longer post on this thread. The absence of rational forward thinking people really lacks here and thus would be a further waste of time.
> 
> Birds of a feather flock together. ChrisB; you sure do have alot of nuthuggers.


How old is your son?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Jimmy might actually be the most uniformed/voodoo believing member this site has ever seen.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Well I hope people in this site would just stop acting like little kids, and learn something. Which is "everone has their own personal choice of audio", and its not worth fighting over it. Some people like distortion (yes distortion), some like loud bass (no matter how nasty it sounds, just as long as **** rattles everything). I personally laugh at those that think they system bumps because everything shakes inside-out. 

True story, this guy got a system and later that day of the install he came back to the shop dissapointed, he said "hey my **** dont bang, nothing rattles". The guy at the shop then said "okay leave your truck here and we will fix it". Well they took a bunch of screws out from doors and panels then turned the truck back to the owner. After the owner turning the system on, everything was rattling and bouncing everywhere, and the owner was now HAPPY.

CHECK OUT HEXIBASE on youtube, he explains that if your have flex in your overhead hood, that does not mean you have a banging system, its actually the opposite (you have a problem).


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

Audio_Jimmy? :shrug:


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

89grand said:


> Jimmy might actually be the most uniformed/voodoo believing member this site has ever seen.


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

jimmy2345 said:


> Lol. And I failed? Are you slow? That is the point exactly.


Yes. You failed. I will repeat it again if it helps. You can have cancellation in rear facing, on the side firing across, and I guess they are all unmanageable, even with acoustical phase control.  Here's a game you like. Since you are introducing a new idea and standing firmly behind it, let's see your empirical data, measurements, technical papers, etc confirming your faith. Since you just run at the mouth and don't bring anything to the table, I assume the matter is now closed. You'll carry on with mythology and ways your ears deceive you, no skin off my balls.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> I think he's referring to the cancellation that sometimes accompanies having your cone far away from the back of the trunk. If you have a big enough trunk, it can be a quarter to half of a wavelength or so. It boggles my mind that he would think that THIS is what separates good installs from bad installs. Nonideal? Sure Make or break? L-****in-O-L.


He's not even accurate in the first place. It's a forward facing sub in a sealed enclosure that is also sealed off from the trunk by cotton batting on the sides and top. 

The purpose of doing it that way was to completely seal off the trunk from the cabin to lower exhaust noise. If the sub were oriented any other way, the exhaust noise would get in just as easily as the sub bass. It's much easier to seal off the 8 square feet from the trunk into the cabin than to stop noise from entering through the 25 sq ft of trunk walls.

So yeah, real ****ty installation there. 

This was the day I got everything installed. All those voids have been sealed with cotton batting.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Jimmy is gone, but I do find this intriguing...

*Original Blues from BassBox Pro:*
Model: BL-10
Available = Unknown
Last update: 31-Jul-1997
Type: Standard one-way driver
Shape: Round
Piston Type: Cone
Fs = 35 Hz
Vas = 2.3 cu.ft
Xmax = 0.15 in
Z = 4 ohms
Pe = 150 watts
Qts = 0.42
2.83-V SPL = 90 dB
Acoustic data: Not present

*Credence Clearance 10:*
Power Rating RMS Cont.	150 Watts
Max Power Rating-Unclipped Amp	230 Watts
Freq Response	38-800 Hz
Nominal Imp	4 Ohms
Voice Coil	2" 4 Layer
FS	38.75 Hz
Qms	8.315
Qes	0.3024
Qts	0.2918
Vas	48.41 Liters (approx 1.7 cubic feet)
Cms	0.2792E-03 M/N
Re	3.67Ohms
BL	13.361 Newtons/Amp
Sd	0.035133 Sq. m.
Mms	0.060411 Kg
Hvc	0.650"
Hag	0.375"
Xmax	0.138"
Xlin	0.275"
Ref Eff	0.8952%
Predicted Output	91.719DB/1W/1M

Slightly different specs, more than likely due to the differences in the various soft parts between the two drivers utilizing the same basket and motor assembly.


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## LunarDD (May 17, 2009)

This is fun!!!


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Have you discover anything else Chris? I just got me a Crunch amplifier at a local pawnshop. What caught my eye was the "Made In USA" on the amp, so I said what the heck for 35.00 bucks I cant complain. Then I did a little research and found out its a ZED designed amp, and they use some of the same components LP does.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Short of seeing specs that Blues won't release or seeing their drivers on a Klippel, I am left with the speculation that these are Credence woofers priced like it is 1989. 

Not like it matters much anyhow because I really don't care about car audio itself any longer. Car audio is as dead as fried chicken to me.


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## sq_assasin (Nov 10, 2008)

ChrisB said:


> Short of seeing specs that Blues won't release or seeing their drivers on a Klippel, I am left with the speculation that these are Credence woofers priced like it is 1989.
> 
> Not like it matters much anyhow because I really don't care about car audio itself any longer. Car audio is as dead as fried chicken to me.


What specs won't they release? Did you ask for something in particular that they are hiding?

I don't know much about them but they seem to be just as transparent as any other speaker company. There are LMS graphs on their website, and also impedance and phase readings.


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

jimmy2345 said:


> Ignorance at it's best. Sound is what we are talking about. Not being finicky. I know they are finicky these days. I own two that I want to throw against the wall at this very moment. However, that doesn't take away from the way they make the music sound when they do play....something any new Alpine can't do. There is no sonic fidelity in the new headunits and thus the very reason why you have to eq them to death to be satisfied.


Are you sure about that? What about the amazing amount of compression bestowed upon today's recordings? Yeah...that could contribute. The 7909 is a trophy piece.



ChrisB said:


> I think you are wasting your time chad because he called me on the Blues Car Audio using Credence thing then didn't have the gall to prove me wrong other than to say I was wrong.


Hmm. That Blues pictured was/is made by Credence in Kevil, Kentucky. Buy them so Credence can stay in business (poor guys...).


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## GTI-DNA (Nov 4, 2010)

Wow, made it through all 11 pages. I have to put my .02 in.

I just recently had a 452 modded by Ray. I bought the amp NEW in 1990, it has been in 3 vehicles, gone through extreme temps (Lived in FLA, then Alaska), and have been beat on most of it's life (drove 2 kicker C8's then moved to mids/highs when I added another linear.) The amp started to get a little hiss from a channel.

Got it back from Ray, hiss? GONE. Power output? Equal to or greater than my 952 that is unmodded. I am happy, but keep in mind that my amp wasn't exactly in "perfect" working order when I sent it to him.

In case anyone is wondering, the 452 that is factory rated at 22.5 watts per channel is now making over 45 watts per channel.


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## leepersc (Sep 23, 2009)

TREETOP said:


> I was telling a story a while back and made reference to Geraldo Rivera and Al Capone's Vault, and everyone looked at me like I had 3 noses. Thank you for bringing that up, I'm glad someone else remembers it.


I was surprised to see a reference to the most anticipated event of whatever year that was. I watched it on tv...what a BUST!

WE ARE GETTING OLD FRIENDS!


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

GTI-DNA said:


> Wow, made it through all 11 pages. I have to put my .02 in.
> 
> I just recently had a 452 modded by Ray. I bought the amp NEW in 1990, it has been in 3 vehicles, gone through extreme temps (Lived in FLA, then Alaska), and have been beat on most of it's life (drove 2 kicker C8's then moved to mids/highs when I added another linear.) The amp started to get a little hiss from a channel.
> 
> ...


I've been running Linear Power amps since 1992. My first amps was the 452i (s) ... Never had any problems, stock or modified. I've owned SEVERAL Linear amps since then. Stock or modified, no problems what so ever ...
I currently own a 2.2hv and a 502hv (all modified) ... No problems and very strong amps. Trust me, I'm NOT afraid of the volume control ... 
Guess you just have to know what you are doing when you are controlling your system ... Thanks, Randal ...


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## SUX 2BU (Oct 27, 2008)

When I read the bit about the Blues speakers I thought about the original Blues stuff from the early 90's. I was very surprised to follow the link and see the same logo! So they revived this brand? It was kind of a neat, decent, 'boutique' brand back in the day.

I picked up a sealed box with 2 mint old skool 10" Blues subs off craigslist about 2 years ago. It was a double score actually as the amp powering it was a very nice condition Alpine 3539 150x2. I'm using the sub box in my daily driver. The amp is tucked away nice and safe in the house 

That's awesome, looks like they've revived the old Blues isobaric tube too. Wasn't it called the Tri-sobaric kit? I see Cablguy104 uses 2 of those setups in his truck. Cool.


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

SUX 2BU said:


> When I read the bit about the Blues speakers I thought about the original Blues stuff from the early 90's. I was very surprised to follow the link and see the same logo! So they revived this brand? It was kind of a neat, decent, 'boutique' brand back in the day.
> 
> I picked up a sealed box with 2 mint old skool 10" Blues subs off craigslist about 2 years ago. It was a double score actually as the amp powering it was a very nice condition Alpine 3539 150x2. I'm using the sub box in my daily driver. The amp is tucked away nice and safe in the house
> 
> That's awesome, looks like they've revived the old Blues isobaric tube too. Wasn't it called the Tri-sobaric kit? I see Cablguy104 uses 2 of those setups in his truck. Cool.



You got it right the first time; it's an isobaric kit. Blues did make a preloaded trisobaric enclosure back in the day though.


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## LinearPower (Apr 16, 2009)

The new speakers are not just a revival of the old, they are far improved from the old drivers and sound even better than they did 20 years ago. We are offering the 8 inch and the 10 inch Iso-Kits and we are looking into building the Trisobaric enclosure again, we just have not done all the testing to see if the new driver parameters will work in that arrangement yet. We have also just introduced our 5.25 two way component set to go along with the 6.5 and the 8 inch two way component sets.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

LinearPower said:


> The new speakers are not just a revival of the old, they are far improved from the old drivers and sound even better than they did 20 years ago. We are offering the 8 inch and the 10 inch Iso-Kits and we are looking into building the Trisobaric enclosure again, we just have not done all the testing to see if the new driver parameters will work in that arrangement yet. We have also just introduced our 5.25 two way component set to go along with the 6.5 and the 8 inch two way component sets.


Ray?

WB Sir..!


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

I like the fact that Linear power is making new models of amps again. I would have liked to see some cast baskets on those speakers. Your price falls in the uppermid-upper range of speakers and subs, but you have a cheap stamped baskets on everything, which only entry level crap comes with nowadays. 

GL to you guys, maybe one day I will get a chance to hear some in a car.


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

BeatsDownLow said:


> I like the fact that Linear power is making new models of amps again. I would have liked to see some cast baskets on those speakers. Your price falls in the uppermid-upper range of speakers and subs, but you have a cheap stamped baskets on everything, which only entry level crap comes with nowadays.
> 
> GL to you guys, maybe one day I will get a chance to hear some in a car.


....and which part of the stamped basket produces sound?

If you are into looks above ultimate sq....then they aren't for you bud.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I would not call isobaric ultamate in SQ, drivers have come a long way since isobaric was cool. How about shorting rings? do the drivers have shorting rings? Is anything done to reduce distortion? IIRC these are FAR from inexpensive sets, with a seemingly inexpensive feature set.


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

....and an above expensive sound.


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

chad said:


> I would not call isobaric ultamate in SQ, drivers have come a long way since isobaric was cool. How about shorting rings? do the drivers have shorting rings? Is anything done to reduce distortion? IIRC these are FAR from inexpensive sets, with a seemingly inexpensive feature set.


Sir, I wish you could sit and listen to my truck before you made judgement on these ISO-Kit systems. Distortion ?? What distortion ?? 
Iv'e been running a pair of ISO-Kits for 2 years now with NO problems ... Well, except for shaking all my bolts and pannels loose from making such LOW frequiency notes at high volumes ... 
I demo just about every weekend, plus jamming everywhere I go.
All kinds of music, trust me, I ain't scared of a volume control ... The tightest notes, hard hitting, great sounding driver setups !!! 
In my oppinion, after competing for 2 seasons with this setup, these ISO-Kits are perfect for Sound Quality ... Just my suggestion, Randal ...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

ugh I Knew it was pointless to attempt to actually start a discussion.

Jimmy, it's simple re-badged drivers... AKA LPG tweeters, etc. you can sound expensive too with a click to madisound and 20 percent of the monies.

Randall I NEVER said that it was it for you, I said that given current driver technology it's pointless to add a second driver to an alignment, dump twice as much power at it and gain NO sensitivity or output. The technology is as old as the Car Audio mag that I read it in what? 1989, 1990? it was a beginning attempt to use a small enclosure, you kept the SAME amount of cone surface area, SAME amount of X-Max, and added more motor that's acoustically coupled toe the radiating surface, that's IT, no way to dodge the fact and numbers/science does not lie. With modern driver tech you can DOUBLE surface area, ADD X-Max, ADD power handling and vastly gain output without having to have one driver literally help the other along. THAT is what isobaric is.


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

In the case of Blues, it's to further control and dampen the driver. The isobaric tube also lets the drivers play lower in a smaller enclosure.

The fact is, I haven't heard one current driver with a true fast transient response that the Blues have. Why? Because with all that new technology you speak of came heavy motor assemblies and moving parts which weighs down the cone. Not one new driver is as fast and smooth as the Blues. 

You are missing the point, Chad. Not everyone wants to add more output. They want the very best SQ there is.


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

chad said:


> Jimmy, it's simple re-badged drivers... AKA LPG tweeters, etc. you can sound expensive too with a click to madisound and 20 percent of the monies.


...and who cares if the tweeter is rebadged?? There are 20 other companies, if not more, rebadging drivers and tweeters all the time. Why aren't you harping on them?? The crossovers were built from scratch, and the drivers as well. Does that discredit the sound quality of the set. Hell no.

I will say it again. I am not sure why anyone who hasn't heard the set, or even plans to, has anything to say.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Some of us have not used a passive crossover since the first go-around with blues  I could care less if the passive was built from scratch, the car audio environment does not do well with a "one size fits all" crossover, too many variables. IF, IF I purchased said product the crossovers would likely never be unwrapped. and I have and DO harp on other for grossly marking up a simple product. I fact I'm gonna start re-badging milk from Walmart and selling ti for 10 bucks a gallon. SQ milk, you have to taste it to believe it, of course you have to drink it thru my straw it has a tiny hole in it that makes the milk bubbly and just a bit foamy.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

jimmy2345 said:


> In the case of Blues, it's to further control and dampen the driver. The isobaric tube also lets the drivers play lower in a smaller enclosure.



Holy **** man, I JUST said that, and you parroted it, there are drivers now that can perform that EXACT function without the need for acoustically coupling a twin. adding another motor sure as hell will lower Qt, it's not rocket appliance. 



jimmy2345 said:


> The fact is, I haven't heard one current driver with a true fast transient response that the Blues have. Why? Because with all that new technology you speak of came heavy motor assemblies and moving parts which weighs down the cone. Not one new driver is as fast and smooth as the Blues.



No, the technology YOU pay attention to shows this trend, when in fact it's just not the case, there are MULTITUDES of drivers out there with incredibly powerful lightweight motor structures, lightweight cones, etc that have an excellent transient response AND sensitivity to boot... all of this can be measured.



jimmy2345 said:


> You are missing the point, Chad. Not everyone wants to add more output. They want the very best SQ there is.


You are drawing a misguided conclusion, I never said ANYTHING about more output, I'm the poster child for modest, well engineered, car audio.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

jimmy2345 said:


> ....and which part of the stamped basket produces sound?
> 
> If you are into looks above ultimate sq....then they aren't for you bud.


Hmm cast metals have a greater resistance to resonance than stamped, I think you need to reread my post above because you seem to add stuff to it I never said. I never said cast sounds better. But with a higher priced driver coming with a stamped basket makes me think they are cutting corners to pad their profit margin.


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

Wow ... This thread is completely out of hand ... 
I am a Cable Guy ... Not a Car Audio installer / technician, so I will not get into all of this ... 
All I can speak for is this ...
Before we put the Blues drivers in my truck, I was running Exodus Audio.
ex 6.5s (same as the Adire Extremest) and Shiva 12s. Everything sounded good to me ... but I wanted more ...
Ray, Mike, Jimmy, and Eddy installed the new tweeters, and changed out the kick pannel drivers with the Blues (old school) ... 
Amazing difference !!! I was Completely blown away. My truck had a stage and the detail in the voices and music was amazing !!!
Then they changed out the 12s with the ISO-Kits. OMG better SPL reading and WAY better Sound Quality ... They said it could sound better, I said go for it ...
Built the new enclosure, new kick pannels and A pillars. amp modifications ... Then BOOM !!! completely amazing sound, power, and dynamics !!!
Now the new drivers are in, no processing or time alignment, no equalization, In my oppinion, an Amazing setup ...

As for new technology, I can assure you, there is some High Tech ******** around here. Alot of systems around here ...
I've heard just about every 10, 12, 15, on the market. can they get louder? Shure ...
But I've never, to date, out of all the shows I've gone to, heard any sub drivers that give as much detail into the lower frequiencies as my ISO-Kit / enclosure setup.
(well, except for the ones in the Team Linear/Blues camp) ... 

Some people say subjective ... no !!! But I can say that I'm Convinced that these products work extremely well for MY application ... Thanks, Randal ...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

<--- High tech rednek.... proud to admit it.

yes, I HAVE said... "here hold my beer......."


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

chad said:


> <--- High tech rednek.... proud to admit it.
> yes, I HAVE said... "here hold my beer......."


How can you be a ******* and live in Illinois ??
And ... I do not hold ANYBODY's beer but my own ... and I do that quite well ...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

there's a section of Illinois referred to as "south of I-80" It's actually the majority of Illinois. People forget that Illinois may border Wisconsin... but it also borders Kentucky 

I think the village I live in may comprise a full set of natural teefs, if not, then quite close.

As for beer holding, you may wanna re-think that, it's both of our lives at stake if I don't have 2 hands on that thing sometimes.


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

I never understood why the teeth are the thing that always gets neglected....maybe not. I guess everything gets neglected but the teeth are the only thing that rots away.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

jimmy2345 said:


> I never understood why the teeth are the thing that always gets neglected....maybe not. I guess everything gets neglected but the teeth are the only thing that rots away.


Many say it's the lack of fluoride that's added to municipal water systems.. I tend to believe it's the abundance of mountain dew and Meth.


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

I remember having one hand on my beer and the other on my girl (specific areas of course) ... If not, she would get jellous ... most beers don't mad if you hold on to another beer ...


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

and my teeth are in great shape ... TYVM !!!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Cablguy184 said:


> I remember having one hand on my beer and the other on my girl (specific areas of course) ... If not, she would get jellous ... most beers don't mad if you hold on to another beer ...


Without a doubt.... IIRC there's whole list of why beer is better than the opposite sex. That was on it.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I remember the days when I had time to drink beer....and time to recover.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

recovery takes longer as you get older.


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

jimmy2345 said:


> I never understood why the teeth are the thing that always gets neglected....maybe not. I guess everything gets neglected but the teeth are the only thing that rots away.


Just asking ?? whats this got to do with the subject in hand ?? 
My local Walmart sells just as much tooth paste as the do in your area ...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

they don't put the toothpaste next to the mountain dew and beef jerky.

Product placement is key.


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## Mike Flanagan (Jan 21, 2011)

Ive known quite a few ******** from Illinois. As for the teeth thing: Ive always said the toothbrush mustve been invented in Pearl MS because if it were invented anywhere else it would be called a "teethbrush"!

And yes that was my first post on DIYMA!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

well done for a first post.


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## Mike Flanagan (Jan 21, 2011)

Thank You! Now as for the iso-kit thing....the original idea behind the iso-kit was to get the same fs out of an enclosure with half the space. And everything youve said is true as far as new drivers and new technology but a couple of things. Because the iso kits are two individual drivers with two motor stuctures they are way more efficient than a single driver with one huge and heavy motor(even if you make the motor out of a lighter material, you would have to double its size to equal the effects of two motor structures which would just put you back in the same boat. The only sub that doesnt fall into this catagory would be a servo sub and thats a whole different can of worms!). Also the resonance of the iso kit is alot lower than most(not all) single subs on the market which makes it an excellant choice for sq systems(Randalls truck has done 138 to 140 db at 24 to 28 hz in USACi competition). As for the aluminum vs stamped argument, aluminum baskets do not make enough of a difference in sound quality to warrent charging the consumer more for the product. Actually we found no real distinguishable difference in the two. IMO it only adds to the cosmetics and that wasnt something we were worried about at the time of manufacturing. Besides, as an installer, ive pulled way more drivers with aluminum baskets out of enclosures that were deformed or even broke than i have steel baskets.


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## SUX 2BU (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm happy to see the Blues name and logo back around again, especially the neat Iso-kits. I don't know what their pricing is though. As for the stamped baskets, I think of the IDQ. Stamped frame, respected sound. Cast does always look cooler though and is basically expected in a quality driver.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Mike Flanagan said:


> Thank You! Now as for the iso-kit thing....the original idea behind the iso-kit was to get the same fs out of an enclosure with half the space. And everything youve said is true as far as new drivers and new technology but a couple of things. Because the iso kits are two individual drivers with two motor stuctures they are way more efficient than a single driver with one huge and heavy motor(even if you make the motor out of a lighter material, you would have to double its size to equal the effects of two motor structures which would just put you back in the same boat. The only sub that doesnt fall into this catagory would be a servo sub and thats a whole different can of worms!). Also the resonance of the iso kit is alot lower than most(not all) single subs on the market which makes it an excellant choice for sq systems(Randalls truck has done 138 to 140 db at 24 to 28 hz in USACi competition). As for the aluminum vs stamped argument, aluminum baskets do not make enough of a difference in sound quality to warrent charging the consumer more for the product. Actually we found no real distinguishable difference in the two. IMO it only adds to the cosmetics and that wasnt something we were worried about at the time of manufacturing. Besides, as an installer, ive pulled way more drivers with aluminum baskets out of enclosures that were deformed or even broke than i have steel baskets.


With the Xmax and SD being fixed sensitivity does INDEED go down (by 3dB) for the iso arrangement over the use of 2 drivers, but in doing so, as you stated you get the benefit of the added motor strength. Which again, can be achieved with modern rare-earth magnets and still be MUCH smaller. Remember when i think motor I'm thinking magnet, gap, coil. leaving cone out of the equation here. If you have a driver in an enclosure, and take another driver with it's polarity inverted wit the same signal going to it, slam it down on top of the first one face to face, you will not gain 3 decibels. you need to have the benefit of both motors and both cones pushing air to gain that benefiit. Which brings me to my next question. Why drivers facing the same direction? why not invert one to assist in correcting for nonlinearaties? This is reducing distortion as I mentioned earlier. In stead the nonlineararities will DOUBLE and the device is larger. (speaking about the device I saw pictured.)

The resonance of the iso kit is likely that of a single driver out of said ISO kit, doubling motor and acoustically coupling does not lower resonance. For example acoustically coupling one kick drum to another kick drum that is tuned the same does not lower the tuning of the original drum.

Trucks can get incredibly loud, but as stated earlier, that's not my bag, in my hatchback I have to do educated cuts down low to keep it in check and not running rampant.

I agree with you for consumer use of stamped versus cast, I won't touch stamped on the road but for in a car, meh. I have those Aura OEM 6" drivers with a stamped basket. I roached one in testing. After dis-assembly I decided to stand on this (now 11 dollar) speaker and bounce up and down (did not jump for fear of missing the tiny neo magnet and breaking my face) the frame held fine to my not-so-girlish 210Lb figure.


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## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

chad said:


> yes, I HAVE said... "here hold my beer......."


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Wow, I can't believe this thread is still going because even I have had of a change of heart since starting it 1.5 years ago. 

Hindsight being 20/20, I flat out chose the WRONG tool for the job because I believed some of the fan boys who told me that the modifications would double my RMS output. Ray said to expect a 15 to 25% power output increase, but I stupidly believed the Linear Power fan boys and expected double. After all doubling RMS power has been my "standard" for upgrading/changing out power amplifiers since 1989 or so.

Mistake number two was choosing a "sound quality" amplifier for a daily SPL system in my then second vehicle. There was just no way that 110 watts RMS per channel could compete with 300 watts RMS per channel in terms of output. Oh well, live and learn...


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## LinearPower (Apr 16, 2009)

First let me say these are not cheap steel baskets, they are heavy gauge steel, which has far less flex and a lower resonant frequency that the THIN STEEL baskets coming from CHINA. Cast baskets really do nothing on smaller drivers except drive the price up, a proper thickness steel will do the same job with little or no effect on sound. Larger diameter woofers can make better use of cast baskets due to the rigidity of the material and the lower resonance.

As far as, the Iso-kits, we did not develop isbarik design, it has been an established principle for years in the audio field(and used by Audiophiles to improve low bass output and SQ). It lowers the distortion, adds damping (control and clarity to the cone) and cuts the size enclosure in half. Modern woofers that work in twice as small enclosures as single traditional woofers have heavy suspensions and moving mass, which allow them to work in the smaller enclosure, BUT they do not have the dynamics and transient response of a true isobarik enclosure. Isobarik enclosures double the electrical power handling of the system,(two motor structures, more energy less distortion, more dynamics) but do not double the accoustical power handling since all the energy is driving the front speaker cone. There is an increase in the accoustical output but it is far from doubled, the whole idea behind isobarik enclosures is to clean the sound up, make it more dynamic than one cone could, and work it in the same sized or smaller enclosures than one normal subwoofer. 

The enclosure size can be viewed in two ways, If you take a standard woofer and standard enclosure and have a given system Fs, the isobarik arrangement put into the same sized enclosure would have half the system Fs, put the isobarik arrangement into half the sized enclosure and the response would be that of the single woofer in twice the sized enclosure (same Fs). 

The Iso-kit design was just a premade factory design that made it very easy to construct an isobarik enclosure, since in a normal isobarik enclosure you have to split the box into sections to service the internal woofer,(these boxes were notorious for air leaks) all of this is avoided with the ISo-Kit. The whole purpose of the Iso-Kit design is to give cleaner, thighter, more dynamic bass, in a equal to or smaller area than one single normal woofer, and to have it easy to build and easy to service.

I worked with Kicker when we were the first to design the heavy weight mass woofer (Solobarik)to try to memic the attributes of an isobarik enclosure. The idea to make a woofer act like a isobarik is to double the moving mass from one woofer, and to increase the suspension to control the cone. It does work in that, a single woofer can give you "all the bass in half the space" as our slogan was at the time, BUT it lost dynamics and sucked up major power to drive it. 

A Isobarik speaker assembly accoustically couples the front cone to the rear cone thru the small sealed area of air between the cone, giving the front cone more drive and keeping and even adding more dynamics to the cone. This changes all of the parameters on the speakers, they appear to work more as one driver, and the Theile Small parameters for each individual driver cannot be used to express the systems parameters anymore.


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## LinearPower (Apr 16, 2009)

ChrisB said:


> Wow, I can't believe this thread is still going because even I have had of a change of heart since starting it 1.5 years ago.
> 
> Hindsight being 20/20, I flat out chose the WRONG tool for the job because I believed some of the fan boys who told me that the modifications would double my RMS output. Ray said to expect a 15 to 25% power output increase, but I stupidly believed the Linear Power fan boys and expected double. After all doubling RMS power has been my "standard" for upgrading/changing out power amplifiers since 1989 or so.
> 
> Mistake number two was choosing a "sound quality" amplifier for a daily SPL system in my then second vehicle. There was just no way that 110 watts RMS per channel could compete with 300 watts RMS per channel in terms of output. Oh well, live and learn...


I have always marketed the modifications first and formost for SQ, with additional power capabilities, but I never mis-represented the power as double, as I found out about any mis-representation of this, I have tried to correct anyone giving the wrong or mis-informed information. I have had customers call and ask for me to double their power and I have told them we do not build hand granades, and that the mods are about more than just power. I am sorry you got lead in the wrong direction about the power output, but that never came from me or the company. 

As you know any companies users and fans can get out of hand on what the product can actually do, they are just too excited about the products they are using, when I can catch this happening with our products, I try to correct it with anyone I know or can contact. We have always wanted to lean toward the conservative end on anything we do at Linear Power and we want our users to keep the same attitude.

To take a 75 x 2 amp and turn around and give anyone 110 x 2 (the next sized up amp in the product line's power output) and improve the overall sound is quite a value. The mods were never meant to give anyone a SPL cheater amp. 

I thank you for your candid response and corrections of past opinions. I have hundreds of happy customers with mods,(probably in the thousands by now) and when or if I do have a customer with an issue, I have always been more than happy to try to correct it.

I believe your post on the improvements you experienced with your amp are still on our website, also.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I loved my 3.2s even more after the mods. I know my testimonial is still on the LP website, though not about the mods...but the outstanding character of the guys at TIPS.


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## Tin_Ears (Aug 8, 2012)

Sorry for unraveling an old thread. I got to post #200 before my eyes gave out and my brain shut down, LOL!! So I apologize in advance if this was already asked...

Has anyone asked Ray if he'll sell just the upgraded transformers directly to us as a DIY part?

EDIT: Okay, I just skimmed through #201 to the end. Mmm...maybe I should have let this one alone.


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