# kicks vrs A pillars



## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

the age old question. 

I've talked to many people in this past summer, listened to many cars, including my own build ive been experiemnting with some F10's scanspeak 4" mids and some SB radial dome tweeters. 




















I've heard kicks, i've heard pillars, ive heard dash mounted. i've pretty much seen and heard almost every possible placment, hell i even heard a dash mounted sub :laugh: fun stuff. I'm gathering parts right now. i've gathered a massive audio NX2 for my tweeters, as well as contuning to run my mids and tweeters off the PDX 4.150 i have. 

i have a set of hybrid audio L4se's, and i do OWN a set of L1R2's although their currently in limbo, AKA the post offices pathedic exuse for a package delivery company  it's been back and forth from PA to HI at least 3 more times since this screen shot :mean: no end in site. but anyways. 











I'm looking at options for where to put my new founded friends the L4SE's. ive had L4's in the past, some of you might recall that fun build, i built (my first attempt) a set of A pillar pods...they uhm..didn't work, putting it nicley. i created a tin can to stuff my l4's into. 

anyways, I digress. i've REALLY grown in my ability to digest music, ive learned allot, but still things I can not do on my own. what I'd like from you kind people is your opinions on if i should mount kick panel for my L4se's or A pillers. WHAT i do know is that A pillars provice the easiest stage for single seat judging, as well as a much easier tune. i've talked to some people, howard told me i may be a bit to large for Kick panels, but i have a very large car, and I will demenstreight my leg room, as well as show you what i'm working with. I will be tuning this with either an alpine h800, or the 3sixty.3 when ever they come out. i currently have an ms-8. I plan on removing the kick break some how, ive yet to get ahold of a company willing to either give me a quote or sell me a modual for an electronic parking brake, for what ever reason their hard to come by. 

the steering wheel is about say 5-6 inches above my legs. hard to tell that aspect in the picture.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Just in case you haven't found this, read http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...64-kickpanel-speaker-locations-pros-cons.html


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

IMO it really depends on how high you will cross the L4 on the top end and what volume of airspace you have available on the dash. Leg obstruction seems to have more effect in the higher freqs. But to make those L4s sing they need to be true IB. Compromises, compromises, compromises


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

SSSnake said:


> Leg obstruction seems to have more effect in the higher freqs.


Where does this start to cause problems? Around 3k?


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

SSSnake said:


> IMO it really depends on how high you will cross the L4 on the top end and what volume of airspace you have available on the dash. Leg obstruction seems to have more effect in the higher freqs. But to make those L4s sing they need to be true IB. Compromises, compromises, compromises


this is the delema :mean: I can't decide. i'm also on the fence about the R2's. i think i'm interested in the DLS scandanavian tweeters. ive heard em and i really like em, plus they handle but loads more power than the R2's. 

did i mention i planed on having the tweeters still in the A pillars? whether i put the mids in kicks or pillar pods. plus sinced im using a silk dome, i can have them more on axis. , i know the R2's do decently slight off axis, but the imaging is a bit dull on the top end because of the way the sound rolls off. I havnt heard the R2's yet though, ive only had em in my bench test to find out the one was blown. 

this is the Scandinavians im considering. 

DLS SCANDINAVIA 1 (dlsscandinavia1) 1.1" Competition Grade


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## south east customz (Jan 17, 2011)

+1 on the kicks.I can help u with a fix for the brake..


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

never heard a car with A pillars that sounded better than a good car with a good kickpanel install ...


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

eviling said:


> this is the delema :mean: I can't decide. i'm also on the fence about the R2's. i think i'm interested in the DLS scandanavian tweeters. ive heard em and i really like em, plus they handle but loads more power than the R2's.
> 
> did i mention i planed on having the tweeters still in the A pillars? whether i put the mids in kicks or pillar pods. plus sinced im using a silk dome, i can have them more on axis. , i know the R2's do decently slight off axis, but the imaging is a bit dull on the top end because of the way the sound rolls off. I havnt heard the R2's yet though, ive only had em in my bench test to find out the one was blown.
> 
> ...


Those DLS tweets are amazing... And I have heard alot of great sounding tweeters. If you can fit them, go for it!


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

Driver placement is very car specific. Its like asking where to place a pair of speakers in a listening room - it depends on the characteristics of the listening room. People kept telling me to mount my tweeters on my A-pillars instead of the stock placement in the sail panels. I discovered that in my particular car, the sail panels provide a wider soundstage than the A-pillars. You have to experiment and see for yourself.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

SouthSyde said:


> Those DLS tweets are amazing... And I have heard alot of great sounding tweeters. If you can fit them, go for it!


I must agree, the scandavians do sound nice, even passive with little processing. i heard them in daves car from 12volt daves, he was running them passive, full scan set, 6's 3's and 1's on the passive cross overs, with DLS amps. whole bit. incredible stage. but if you're in your all in or half in if you ask me with something like that. i'm only interested in the tweeter, the L4se's can play fine, VERY deep, i'm looking to cross them around 160-220 hz range, up to 5k probobly because thats how i like them, although they are very nice full range, even the L4 full range are nice.


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

eviling said:


> I must agree, the scandavians do sound nice, even passive with little processing. i heard them in daves car from 12volt daves, he was running them passive, full scan set, 6's 3's and 1's on the passive cross overs, with DLS amps. whole bit. incredible stage. but if you're in your all in or half in if you ask me with something like that. i'm only interested in the tweeter, the L4se's can play fine, VERY deep, i'm looking to cross them around 160-220 hz range, up to 5k probobly because thats how i like them, although they are very nice full range, even the L4 full range are nice.


They are VERY detailed yet very smooth and easy to listen to.  Personally, I have always had good results with midrange in the kicks and tweets in the pillars.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

SouthSyde said:


> They are VERY detailed yet very smooth and easy to listen to.  Personally, I have always had good results with midrange in the kicks and tweets in the pillars.


yeah. its a tought choice with that though. I want the tweeters as forward as possible, so bottom of the A pillars on axis or slight off with those scans would be great. Ive heard good cars with tweet\mid seperated and ive heard bad ones  the tint box is a good example of a car done right, but that thing has an emence amount of leg space.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

I gotta say kicks. with an a-pillar install you are still gonna need a midbass. a 4" wont cut it for realistic midbass. path length issues rise up with speakers that far away from each other.

my own personal preferance aside, I think getting good imaging is harder with a-pilar


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

I like how kicks image, they can be hard to get up high enough but with the right tuning they sound so good. Ive heard them do so good in kick panels i thought their were pillar pods or dash mounted mid's. the biggest difference i feel in kicks vrs pillars is the stage width, its always such a wider width with a much uniform sound. 


oh, did i not mention i run a 3 way setup? sorry. yeah i run this with a hybrid L6.


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

eviling said:


> I like how kicks image, they can be hard to get up high enough but with the right tuning they sound so good. Ive heard them do so good in kick panels i thought their were pillar pods or dash mounted mid's. the biggest difference i feel in kicks vrs pillars is the stage width, its always such a wider width with a much uniform sound.
> 
> 
> oh, did i not mention i run a 3 way setup? sorry. yeah i run this with a hybrid L6.


Kicks, when they sound good, they sound GOOD. Good width and nice depth to the sound stage. Which will be 95% of the time, the other 5% of the time, it will still sound like you have sound come from your feet. With pillars, at its best, probably wont have the width or depth of a good set up with kicks, but you have automatic height 100% of the time. Thats what it boils down to. Pick your poison! 

I have always been a kicks guy, my last set up with the audison thesis orchestra was a midrange and tweet pillar set up however, but now I am going back to some midrange and tweets in the kicks for my last and final rebuild.


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

here in EU A-pillar or dash installs are are much more common than kick-panell installs.
I ve tried both types of install with HAT L4....both showed their positive and negative behaviour...

With KickPanel install midbass was VERY strong - very good integration with midbass driver, good depth and quite wide soundstage, with L4+TW combo installed higher on A-pillar system became significantly louder, with very good microdetail and very good transparency, height isnt a question here - eye level, but soundstage isnt sa wide as with KP mounted mids, deepth is good but not great. The worse results I got from dash mounted mids and tw in a-pillars due to nasty reflection from windshield arround 600-700Hz.

Drivers were all installed on-axis and with correct set phasing/delays.


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

SouthSyde said:


> but now I am going back to some midrange and tweets in the kicks for my last and final rebuild.


BLUFF! 

To the OP, I'll also throw my hat in for kicks. Maybe mids in the kicks and tweeters in the A-pillar or sail panel.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

Se7en said:


> BLUFF!
> 
> To the OP, I'll also throw my hat in for kicks. Maybe mids in the kicks and tweeters in the A-pillar or sail panel.


im thinking pillar for weeters want them as far foward aspossible


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

Se7en said:


> BLUFF!
> 
> To the OP, I'll also throw my hat in for kicks. Maybe mids in the kicks and tweeters in the A-pillar or sail panel.


LOL. Wattup bud. You should try to come down to our sq seminar/meet.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/12-volt-events-team-diyma/111060-houston-tx-sq-seminar.html

When listening to your car i swore you had dash mounted mids and tweets but with the added width to the soundstage. 

To the OP, great sounding kicks are very driver dependent. Not all drivers sound the same in kicks.


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## SoundJunkie (Dec 3, 2008)

KICKS! I had HAT L4SE's and R2 tweeters in my A pillars, off axis and properly vented down into the dash. This setup was the best I have had to date....played loud and clear with great detail, stage width was at the door glass and depth fair. 

I have now switched drivers and locations. I now have kick mounted Focal Utopia Audiom 6W mids and A pillar mounted TLR tweeters. My HAT L8's remain in the doors as they were with the Hybrid separates. With this combo I lost absolutely NO stage height, gained tons of depth (beyond windshield and in layers) and the width is at the mirrors. This blends very well with the midbasses and doesn't tend to pull the stage down on midbass heavy tracks like it did with the pillars. 

This is the first time I have used kicks in any of my builds, it won't be the last!

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## 3cyltrbo (Apr 11, 2011)

one of my favorite installs I had pretty big kicks with both a 6.5 "sub" and a 5-1/4 mid. I even tried that once like a home audio speaker in MTM arrangement with a small tweet between the 6.5 and the 5-1/4

personally I've always favored kick installs, although honestly I'm planning a test pair of A pillars to try a fullranger (like the TB bamboo) 

W


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

in my experiences I've heard all the things everybody is saying. staging in complete A pillar mid range\tweeter setups have narrow stages, center can be a bit fuzzy (in my case) I always felt mine was a bit to far right, depending on the song. vibrations have been a rather larger problem with me, since i have a 2 door, my trunk does have passages into my cabin in the back seat behind my K pannels, and theirs some ressoence in their  

kicks ive heard in some other cars, in particular i heard a 2002 impala (pretty much the same car as me) and I had about as much leg room in his driver seat as i do in mny monte carlo. and his tweeters were up high, mids in kicks, vented into the corner panel fender well like i'll probobly try and do, and good LORD did his system get loud and clean. granted he was running 6 mosconi amps, and a set of focal no.6 speakers, but the kicks are only 3" in that set i think and the intergration (he ran them active) between the mid woofer and the mids were ****ing spectacular, INCREDIBLE impact. \which is why i'm going with 4" mids, i want more mid range inpact. the ms-8 really holds back the impact of my L6's but once i get a new processor, i think the impact of them will be where i want them, i havbe them pretty close now, but like evryones saying i think once i put my mids next to my mid woofers (in the door panels my mid woofers are btw)


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

SoundJunkie said:


> I have now switched drivers and locations. I now have kick mounted Focal Utopia Audiom 6W mids and A pillar mounted TLR tweeters. My HAT L8's remain in the doors as they were with the Hybrid separates. With this combo I lost absolutely NO stage height, gained tons of depth (beyond windshield and in layers) and the width is at the mirrors. This blends very well with the midbasses and doesn't tend to pull the stage down on midbass heavy tracks like it did with the pillars. This is the first time I have used kicks in any of my builds, it won't be the last!
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


 It would have been more interesting to hear how different things sounded with the same drivers moved from the pillars to the kicks. Many have been able to get a nice stage using the Audiom (kicks) and TLR (pillar) combo. I think the large midrange offers more presence and fullness given tha fact that it is further from the ears and that Audiom has much better sensitivity than a 3" and 4" driver.

IMO, If I had 8" midbasses in the doors and had a choice for any size midrange in the kicks......I think I would skip the 3"-4" drivers and look at using at least a 5 1/4"....just to get more surface area down there.

I think it's tough to say which is the better way to go....KICKS vs. PILLARS! You have to try both in your given car with the the given drivers. Both have their ups and downs. It seems many grood sounding well balanced systems use both kicks and pillars.

Myself I plan to mount my Anarchy midbasses in the kicks. Then the plan it to put a 3" and tweet in the pillars or maybe on the dash? Nevertheless, I plan to try the Anarchy's with just the tweets up top to see how that sounds. So it will be a 2-way vs. 3-way up front trial for me as I really don't think that I would be happy with using just one of the two locations. My car is wide and my dash is pretty far forward (Chysler LX cab forward). 

You really do have to play around and see how things work out.

Also to the OP eviling...if you decide to not use the Scan Discovery 10F mid and want to sell them I might be ineterested. I have been wanting to try those and compare to my TB Bamboo UH mids. How did you like them as a midrange?


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

their nice, very good in a 4 way setup if you ask me, they'd do great from 1k-5k if you added a dedicated mid range for the 200-1k with a mid woofer below. 


bkin posted a very detailed reveiew and info about the 10F's in my build log, it's about half way throughh ther build log when i was building the A pillars, page 7 maybe.


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## SoundJunkie (Dec 3, 2008)

WLDock said:


> It would have been more interesting to hear how different things sounded with the same drivers moved from the pillars to the kicks. Many have been able to get a nice stage using the Audiom (kicks) and TLR (pillar) combo. I think the large midrange offers more presence and fullness given tha fact that it is further from the ears and that Audiom has much better sensitivity than a 3" and 4" driver.
> 
> IMO, If I had 8" midbasses in the doors and had a choice for any size midrange in the kicks......I think I would skip the 3"-4" drivers and look at using at least a 5 1/4"....just to get more surface area down there.
> 
> ...


Yeah, after I pulled the pods and test fit the Focals it was really a no brainer on which drivers I was going to keep! The tonality was better and yes, the larger midrange gave me the vocal warmth and presence I was looking for. They also paired up very nicely with the L8's crossed at 200hz, pretty much seamless. 

I tend to agree that the vehicle will sometimes dictate which direction you will go. That being said it is always a good idea to try all your options in order to see which sounds best to you! 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

SoundJunkie said:


> Yeah, after I pulled the pods and test fit the Focals it was really a no brainer on which drivers I was going to keep! The tonality was better and yes, the larger midrange gave me the vocal warmth and presence I was looking for. They also paired up very nicely with the L8's crossed at 200hz, pretty much seamless.
> 
> I tend to agree that the vehicle will sometimes dictate which direction you will go. That being said it is always a good idea to try all your options in order to see which sounds best to you!
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


the focals were larger than the L4se's? no mid range is larger than those in any pre built kit what are you talking about, the 4's are like 4.5 with 4" cones.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

eviling said:


> the focals were larger than the L4se's? no mid range is larger than those in any pre built kit what are you talking about, the 4's are like 4.5 with 4" cones.


You're kiddin' right? The Audiom is a 6.5" driver... 

Kelvin


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

subwoofery said:


> You're kiddin' right? The Audiom is a 6.5" driver...
> 
> Kelvin


link/ im not familuar with that ? is it part of a set :mean:


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## SoundJunkie (Dec 3, 2008)

eviling said:


> link/ im not familuar with that ? is it part of a set :mean:


Yes they are 6.5" dedicated midranges. Old school top end gear circa 1997 or so if memory serves me. These were a super find and BNIB!! The TLR tweeter retailed at around $1K and the mids were about $6-700 a pair. Most advanced auto tweeter Focal ever made, not a kit or a set, no crossovers. Google them and you will find some world champion comp cars with them! I love them so far and they still need alot of break in time.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

eviling said:


> link/ im not familuar with that ? is it part of a set :mean:


http://web.archive.org/web/20070222023524/http://ldsg.snippets.org/pdfs/focal/Audiom_6WM.pdf 

Google the TLR tweets for infos... 

Kelvin


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

SoundJunkie said:


> Yes they are 6.5" dedicated midranges. Old school top end gear circa 1997 or so if memory serves me. These were a super find and BNIB!! The TLR tweeter retailed at around $1K and the mids were about $6-700 a pair. Most advanced auto tweeter Focal ever made, not a kit or a set, no crossovers. Google them and you will find some world champion comp cars with them! I love them so far and they still need alot of break in time.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


well if its not a set than my statment still remains true :laugh: sounds like a cool set thoughh ive only recently started to really like focals stuff, but their bottom end stuff is still over priced if you ask me, well so is their top end stuff but ive heard the no.7 set and the no.6 set and they are AMAZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZING speakers. ive also heard the k3's they're very nice but nothing compared to the no.6 <3


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

eviling said:


> link/ im not familuar with that ? is it part of a set :mean:


 One of the popular cars from the sound off scene that won many awards using the Focal Utopia TLR tweeeters in the pillar, Audiom 6 in the kicks, and four 5" subs in the dash was "The Reaper".

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum.../81227-john-pitts-reaper-pictures-anyone.html


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