# pionkej's 06 Nissan Murano--MECA MODEX/SQ2+ Bound



## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I've been working on this build for the last month or so, so pictures will come pretty quickly at first and then will taper off a bit as I move forward. I'm trying some install approaches that are new for me, and not all that common, so I had planned to wait until I heard the system before posting...but boring days at work thanks to rain have left me wanting to share.  Where I am and what I'm trying isn't really groundbreaking stuff, but I am trying to draw from what I've learned and experienced in this build to have it, hopefully, be my best system to date.

I decided to complete this build in my wife's Murano for a couple of reasons. First, she told me that she wanted a good stereo after hearing mine (so I blame her for all of this ). Second, this is our primary car. I have a company truck, and aside from her driving my Maxima while I've been doing this, my car has only been driven three times since March (so why use my car for the "good stuff"). Third, I feel I've learned a good bit as I've progressed, and I was excited about getting a "fresh start" with her car instead of modifying my modified install. 

I plan to compete with this car in both Modex and SQ2+, but it's a family car first. That means I had some "rules" to work with. I cannot cut metal (in the kicks, the doors, or anywhere else), I cannot leave anything non-functional, I cannot remove the spare tire, and I cannot have any part of the trunk sitting higher than it does from the factory. The good news...I can cut the dash! I got "permission" for this since I can replace it for $150-200 on e-bay.

Gear:

Source--OEM Unit
Processor--JBL MS8 (running 5.1)
Front Midbass--JBL 660GTi
Front Midrange/Tweeter--Aurasound Whisper (2 per channel)
Rear-Fill--Aurasound Whisper (2 per channel)
Subs--JBL 1000GTi (x2)
Amp #1--JL HD600/4 (front left and right)
Amp #2--JL HD900/5 (center and subs)

I plan to have the front stage up and running before Christmas (which means before the week has closed ), so I probably won't update anything at night just because I'll be busting it out in the garage.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

sweet i look forward to seeing this build..


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

So, with any good tale...we start at the beginning. I had begun to develop the feeling that reflections from higher frequency information (those primarly covered by tweeters) were both the most common problems for listening fatigue and lack of width. My plans and research for this install centered around reducing this. I enjoyed reading the "one tweeter" thread from PB and decided to build my pod around his design in the thread. One that used waveguides to narrow directivity (to avoid reflections) and still keep good levels of output as upper-end response dropped. The plan was to use Aura Whispers for the center from midrange and up, a JBL 500GTi for center midbass, dual c508GTi's in the doors for left and right midbass, and to put some OS JBL 404GTi's in the corner of the dash firing into the glass (since I LOVE the GTi stuff and they have the tweeters braxially mounted) for left and right midrange and up. My plans changed very early after this, but the waveguide/directivity plan stuck, and so this was my "starting point".

Here is a link to the thread I'm referencing: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ced/72891-anyone-tried-using-one-tweeter.html

Here is PB's pod:










Here is as far as I got with mine before going in a slightly different direction:










Here is the templete (that I still used) for the dash and the original planned layout:


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

At this point I'd like to say a particular thank you to Erin (bikinpunk) and Todd (highly). We three had many discussions as I started working on this build and as it progressed. All of the work you will see was done by me, and nearly all of the ideas were "mine" too, but they were an invaluable "sounding board" for those ideas, gave valuable input that steering me when at an either/or point, and kept me motivated as I shared some of the pictures you will see.

There are others I will thank throughout this build. Some because they helped me get certain pieces I needed, and some because I built off of the information they shared here. I will say now though, that I appreciate the quality posts of this forum and the kind members I have met along the way.

So...enough with being all gushy and back to the build. 

I decided that I wanted my front stage to have the same "tonality" across the board. You can argue that it won't matter much in the midbass and I might agree, but running tweeters for left and right and dual Whispers for the center just didn't seem like it would sound natural to me. I "needed" the whispers for my center pod, so I decided to use them for left and right as well. 

Even though I'm not going in the same direction, or using the same method of control, this part of the plan was equally inspired by Mark E.'s NASCAR (from discussions with Todd) and his use of arrays and with PB's "one tweeter" thread. The plan was to use multiple 2" drivers to: spread the sound around for a 2-seat setup, increase the output, and use a 2" driver so I didn't lose too much top-end compared to traditional wideband setups. The plan was to use waveguides to: keep the "spread" from hitting the glass above 2khz or so and to help amplify everything above 2khz to help fight the drooping respose. 

In this picture, the red shows the planned "beams" and the yellow shows the wider dispersion. The bottom image show how the drivers on the left and right would be slightly offset so the "beams" didn't "hit" each other and cause terrible comb-filtering.*

* I did my best to change CTC spacing slightly and adjust pod height slightly to make sure primary comb-filtering didn't cascade and give me a null that was too big.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

sub'd.

Thought it would be a year until this log was posted....


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

That's a very interesting setup you have planned for your front stage....good luck with it and I hope it works out for you


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> sub'd.
> 
> Thought it would be a year until this log was posted....


Everybody else (you, Todd, Kirk) has been so transparent with what they have in their build...I thought I would follow suit.  I really just wanted to make sure it worked like I hope/plan for it to, but impatience got the best of me.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

how big are those whisper drivers, will three of them fit in the space of a standard din slot? and output wise can they do loud and clean? or do they start to frizzle at higher output. I'm not looking for SPL loud, but rather loud with the windows down doing 80...


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

So, my last post showed what I had initially planned for the build. Those plans changed, but the premise remained. To eliminate as many reflections as possible and reflections that couldn't be eliminated would be "treated" the best they could. "Treated" implies the use of crossover points that avoid massive comb-filtering and baffles that blend as smoothly as possible with surroundings (and to have roundovers to reduce diffraction when a smooth transition isn't possible).

I also decided that I wanted to put all of the speakers on the dash. Left, right, and center midbass would be going up top firing into the glass. This is a first for me, and I was concerned about how it may affect width and depth. The midbass will sit in front of the pods, but it's the part I'm still most concerned about until I hear it in action, but I had some logic behind the decision. I plan to cross the midbass to midrange somewhere between 350-500hz/24db (I plan to start with 400hz and work from there). Each midbass is less that 7" from it's pod and less than 7" from the glass. Based on 1/4 wave theory, this SHOULD put the first potential null around 500hz and SHOULD also allow me to treat each set of drivers as a single "source" below 500hz. Where hope comes into play is that the "source" will move back to the pods and not forward to the midbass.

For those that love pictures...they will be in the next update.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

quietfly said:


> how big are those whisper drivers, will three of them fit in the space of a standard din slot? and output wise can they do loud and clean? or do they start to frizzle at higher output. I'm not looking for SPL loud, but rather loud with the windows down doing 80...


They are 2" nominal but actually a bit smaller. You can find them on the Madisound website and Zaphaudio has some test data on them in his tidbits section. If I were to use a single driver, I don't think I could get the output I want. With two placed in a partial waveguide I was able to get enough output from them without distorting that I decided to move forward with this build (I tested them on a baffle in my home theater).

As far as fitting them in a single din section, it would be a tight fit. You would probably have to trim the flange down a bit to make it work, but I think it could be done.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I decided to start with the "easy" part first in my build which was cutting the midbass baffle and working on the center pod. 

Template for baffle:










Transferred to MDF:










After a steady hand on the bandsaw:










Kerfed board to follow contour of baffle (this is actually from my "rejected" pod, but I don't have a picture of the other):










Gluing down the "lid" after putting a 45-degree chamfer down for the "waveguide":










Some pictures of the pod after I put a roundover on all corners:




























In the living room for listening impressions:


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## crispin (May 23, 2011)

Very curious to see how this works for you.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

The left and right pods were much more difficult to pull off. I wanted the to blend with the glass, the dash, and the pillars. I wanted them to follow the contour of the dash (see drawing above). To figure the shape, I used the tried and true method of trimming carboard until it fit. Using some aluminum foil to hold the curves at the pillar helps here. After I had the shape, I needed to decide on how to make the curve. I considered kerfing and steam bending (the first method uses mdf the second MUST NOT use mdf ). I finally settled on using some 1/4" ply I had lying around and "cold bending" the wood. This method uses a negative shape to form the bend and glue to hold the pieces together.

Here are the cutouts, still flat, getting the holes routed and chamfers added:










Here is the negative I'll be using:










First baffle getting "glued and screwed...err...clamped":



















Does it work???



















It DOES!!! So we repeat for the passenger side:










To get the initial fitment, I just put a 45 on all sides. It isn't perfect, but I can work with that:


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

:snacks:


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Now that I've satisfied some of the picture hungry people, I'll get back to the waveguide decision a bit. 

Why was 2khz chosen? Simply because it was the lowest I could go, in the room I had, with the drivers I chose to use. As frequency goes down, waveguides get larger. As driver diameter gets smaller, waveguides get larger (the waveguide for the tweeter in the JBL 660GTi set is 4"x6"). With a 2" driver, I needed a 3" total diameter waveguide to get down to 2khz. I had a 1" thick baffle and the Whisper mounts from the back with a 1/2" face depth. With that remaining 1/2" baffle thickness, I could use a 45-degree chamfer to get a 3" total diameter (for 2khz directivity control).

Concerns were also shared that the MS8 doesn't play nice with horns. Here are my thoughts on it from a PM:



> See, waveguides are waveguides and horns are horns. They are similar (and somewhere along the way started to get lumped together) but they are not the same. They both attempt to control directivity and increase output. A horn has lots of diffraction and reflection going on as it travels down the throat to a rectangular mouth. This leads to a very uneven frequency response, but it is also what helps give horns the peaky/"lively" response people love. The MS8 tries to even that out and it doesn't seem to work well. A waveguide, on the other hand, tends to retain a smooth frequency response and reduce diffraction. I'm using it to limit reflections off the glass and boost the wideband drivers falling frequency response. It only works from 2khz up. The baffles in the build are designed to blend smoothly with all the other boundaries to HOPEFULLY reduce issues below 2khz.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Now that the baffles were all made, I was ready to see how it would look in the car. No part of the dash was cut at this point, so the big baffle is sitting around 3/4" higher than it will in it's final position. Since my cell phone doesn't have a wide-angle lens, I had to put the camera by the ceiling from the back seat to get this shot. I share that because visibility is MUCH better than it appears in this photo.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I couldn't go any further in the build at this point without putting the dremel to the dash...

...so I did...

...and found...

DASH VENTS!!! 










Since I had already cut the dash, I decided to worry about it later and keep going.










Until I had this:










At least the baffle fits :


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Just curious, but do you think its legal to drive with those on the dash? I ask as they say a crack in the window is enough to cause an obstruction to your view to be illegal to drive with.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> Just curious, but do you think its legal to drive with those on the dash? I ask as they say a crack in the window is enough to cause an obstruction to your view to be illegal to drive with.


I'm not entirely sure honestly. I can tell you that the center pod is less of an obstruction than the hoodline itself (i.e. you can still see the hood past the pod). The left and right pods also only block around 1-2" of true visibility from the corners of the dash. This doesn't affect blind spots at all and would only POSSIBLY make parking in tight corners or reading mailbox numbers a bit more difficult. 

I will counter that pillar gauges/center stack gauges/pillar tachs in sport cars and midrange pillar pods all block visibility more than my setup does.

I was still concerned about this and had both my wife, who is 5'-2", and father, who is an engineer for Nissan, give me their "OK" before moving forward.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

pionkej said:


> I'm not entirely sure honestly. I can tell you that the center pod is less of an obstruction than the hoodline itself (i.e. you can still see the hood past the pod). The left and right pods also only block around 1-2" of true visibility from the corners of the dash. This doesn't affect blind spots at all and would only POSSIBLY make parking in tight corners or reading mailbox numbers a bit more difficult.
> 
> I will counter that pillar gauges/center stack gauges/pillar tachs in sport cars and midrange pillar pods all block visibility more than my setup does.
> 
> I was still concerned about this and had both my wife, who is 5'-2", and father, who is an engineer for Nissan, give me their "OK" before moving forward.


Like I said I was just curious, as I got a FX35 and was looking at what I can do with the dash, but didnt come up with much as the visibility out the front is kinda scarce compared to other cars.

But I like the progress so far and I am curious as to how it will turn out for ya.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

pionkej said:


> The left and right pods were much more difficult to pull off. I wanted the to blend with the glass, the dash, and the pillars. I wanted them to follow the contour of the dash (see drawing above). To figure the shape, I used the tried and true method of trimming carboard until it fit. Using some aluminum foil to hold the curves at the pillar helps here. After I had the shape, I needed to decide on how to make the curve. I considered kerfing and steam bending (the first method uses mdf the second MUST NOT use mdf ). I finally settled on using some 1/4" ply I had lying around and "cold bending" the wood. This method uses a negative shape to form the bend and glue to hold the pieces together.


Just out of curiosity did you consider fiberglass? Not that your wood work isn't impressive, it just seems like dash pods lend themselves to fiberglass work. BTW LOVE the wave guides.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> Like I said I was just curious, as I got a FX35 and was looking at what I can do with the dash, but didnt come up with much as the visibility out the front is kinda scarce compared to other cars.
> 
> But I like the progress so far and I am curious as to how it will turn out for ya.


No worries man. I actually preferred the FX to the Murano, but my wife liked the "Mo" better and it's what we got. One thing she didn't like was the difference in visibility (both the raked front and rear glass) so I'm not sure you could pull off what I'm trying without blocking a good bit more.

It is a slick crossover though. It handles and drives more like a sports car than anything else we considered at the price point.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

quietfly said:


> Just out of curiosity did you consider fiberglass? Not that your wood work isn't impressive, it just seems like dash pods lend themselves to fiberglass work. BTW LOVE the wave guides.


You are correct about fiberglass being common with pods, and there will be fiberglass used in coming posts . The problem with it here is that it would be insanely difficult to make the curves properly, make the waveguides properly, and make it thick enough to handle the offset of the speakers themselves (you can see the 1/2" standoff from the flange I'm talking about in the picture below).


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

After cutting into the dash and hitting the vents for the center midbass, the wheels started turning. I knew I needed more depth, but I couldn't cannibalize the OEM ducts and I wasn't sure if it was allowed in the MODEX rules. I started looking for ideas and found what Todd (Highly) did in his VW. I decided it was a good idea if it was allowed, so I sent an e-mail to MECA. With a plan in hand and "permission" to proceed, I went out and got some floral foam. 

If you haven't seen what Todd did, the premise is that floral foam can be: easily shaped, doesn't "melt" with resin, and can be broken apart and removed after the mold has cured. I wanted to reduce height as much as possible while maintaining flow as much as possible. 

Mold vs. OEM ducts:










Depth of mold vs. OEM ducts:



















Glassed up and test fit:



















And a mock-fit:


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Since I had the resin out, I decided to go ahead and get the rest of the pods done too. You will see that I put down a layer of 1/8" foam against the glass. The purpose behind this is to not have direct pressure against the glass, but to have a slight "buffer" between the two surfaces. You will see below that somewhere along the way I got the baffles all smoothed out.





































After that, my day of glassing was done.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Back in the car for a test fit (the top photo shows how little "blocking" is going on with the pods):


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

pionkej said:


> You are correct about fiberglass being common with pods, and there will be fiberglass used in coming posts . The problem with it here is that it would be insanely difficult to make the curves properly, make the waveguides properly, and make it thick enough to handle the offset of the speakers themselves (you can see the 1/2" standoff from the flange I'm talking about in the picture below).


I was thinking more in terms of the center pod. that one you seemed to make a complete stand alone enclosure, where as for the sides it seems you've created the baffles. 
I guess what i'm asking is why the center encloser was not glassed up to the window like the sides. I'm thinking it because of the positioning required to make the waveguides work, but wasn't sure...


{ I'm asking as i plan on using a similar set up but with L4SE's one in each corner and one in the middle as a center. I'm wondering if using waveguides on them would help as they are in your install. after reading PB's Audio Psychosis stuff, i think it would help with the reflections.}


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Now that everything is starting to come together, I need to work on asthetics. In this case, asthetics (things like roundovers at edges) go hand-in-hand with reducing diffraction. The first thing I did was made a "plug" for the ends of the pods and epoxied them into place. On the pillar and top sides, I used a repair putty to fill the voids between my baffles and my fiberglassed pods. After THAT was done, I carefully used my router table to put a roundover on all the sides. Fitment is better than what you see in the pictures because the baffle face is just sitting in the pod.










The reason the baffle is just sitting in the pod above is because, even though I've never blown a speaker up, I wanted these pods to be fully serviceable (and I have to have access to the back side of the baffle to remove the drivers). It took some time trying to figure out how to do this while still allowing it to be safely secured to the dash. I opted to drill and countersink holes around the permieter to screw the face to the pod. It will be covered in grill cloth that will have to be removed...but that's better than scrapping the entire pod if a speaker dies. To secure the pod to the dash, I decided to use rivnuts and bolt it from below.










Upon test fitting, I found that the speaker hit the pod on both sides. I only needed around 1/8" clearance, so I used my dremel to cut out the offending section and I put a layer of glass outside the finished pod. After that, everything fit up nice (you can see the holes for the screws I mentioned above and the couple where I "missed the mark" ).




























After I got my clearance, everything was ready to assemble and listen to in the living room floor!!!!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

quietfly said:


> I was thinking more in terms of the center pod. that one you seemed to make a complete stand alone enclosure, where as for the sides it seems you've created the baffles.
> I guess what i'm asking is why the center encloser was not glassed up to the window like the sides. I'm thinking it because of the positioning required to make the waveguides work, but wasn't sure...
> 
> 
> { I'm asking as i plan on using a similar set up but with L4SE's one in each corner and one in the middle as a center. I'm wondering if using waveguides on them would help as they are in your install. after reading PB's Audio Psychosis stuff, i think it would help with the reflections.}


The center pod can't go all the way to the glass for assembly reasons. It does get close and it has a roundover to reduce diffraction as much as possible. The way everything is going to be installed, I want to be able to remove any component without having to take any factory piece of the dash apart. Assembly will be, left and right pods bolted in, big baffle installed, center pod installed, midbass speakers installed. Steps are reversed till I get to the piece in question should service be needed.

I chose to make the center out of wood because it was easiest, in my opinion, to make smoothly. It would have been much more work to get the waveguide right and the same smooth radius of my 15-degree slopes (top, bottom, and both sides) and roundovers. I was able to do everything with a router, a router table, and a bandsaw and it involved very little filler to get smooth.

EDIT: The left and right are as long as they are in an attempt to reduce/delay baffle-step and diffraction as much as possible.


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

Very curious... Keep up the good work.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I had gotten to a point with the left and right pods that I turned my attention back to the big baffle and the center pod. I would never wish an accident on anyone, and certainly not my wife, but I feel they need to be planned for and so I wanted everything to be secured.

The center pod to the baffle was a bit tricky. Because of the defroster vents, I don't have room to get my hand below and bolt it from the bottom. I didn't want any ugly l-brackets securing it from the top if I could help it. In the end, I settled on wooden dowels. The dowels would be secured with glue to the pod and would be secured to the baffle with silicone. Most accidents occur with forward or rearward thrust, so I wasn't too concerned with the pod coming up off the pins, but lateral motion was a concern and I felt it was adequately covered with this method.

Holes drilled after outlining the pod on the baffle:










Pod with the dowels glued in:










And making sure it fits back together:










After that was done, I decided to start cutting out holes for the midbass. I had planned from the beginning to raise the center a bit more with a "standoff" and to to add "standoff's" to the left and right for excursion clearance (they will be hidden below a dashmat), but I cut the holes in the original baffle to just make sure I had enough depth and my alignment was good.

Locations laid out:










Cut and test fit:










Depth and location is good!!! The center pod is sitting with the dowels installed here.


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## Stoph (Jan 14, 2009)

Looks really cool! Do you have plans on smoothing out the middle pod at all to make it flow with the dash more? Particularly on the sides.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Stoph said:


> Looks really cool! Do you have plans on smoothing out the middle pod at all to make it flow with the dash more? Particularly on the sides.


The pod will not be modified from the way it is pictured, but I do believe it "flows" better with the dash once we get to the pictures of the "standoffs" added to the big baffle.

The sides are designed to look clean and smooth second to being as long as possible to delay/reduce baffle-step and diffraction as much as possible.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I had a plan for attaching the left and right pods to the dash. I had a plan for attaching the center pod to the baffle. All I lacked was a plan to attach the baffle to the dash. I wanted to come up with a way of doing this that would help secure the baffle and prevent vibrations from transferring to the dash. I'm hoping that 1 3/4" of MDF won't leave many vibrations to transfer, but to be safe, I wanted to couple the baffle solidly. I also wanted a way to still have painless removal if needed. I opted to go back to my rivnuts, except this time the dash would be getting the attachment point so I could bolt the baffle down from above.

Here is the plan (midbass depth not to scale ):










I used some "u-channel" with rivnuts to help strengthen the dash and attach the baffle, and I used rivits to the dash for a secure mechanincal bond. In the pictures below, you will see the baffle attachment and the aluminum I'm using as a "washer" for the left and right pods.

Cut and drilled:










View from the bottom (you can see the rivnuts in the channel):



















View from the top (not much to see other than it's rivited):



















And the whole thing:


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

this is some really nice work here, very well thought out and very well executed so far.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

At this point, I'm almost caught up to "real time". I have gotten the custom center duct installed and everything fits nicely.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I added headliner foam to all the pods. This should futher help diffraction and attenuate any HF content that "gets past" the waveguides. It also helps cover up any minor gaps I may have around the glass and pillar on the side pods. I then wrapped them in grill cloth. I wanted to cover the drivers to help prevent the "eye's from hearing"...though it doesn't help much if I put up a build log about it. 

Foam:




















Grill Cloth (center not pictured):










I also took the time label the wires so I would know what goes where when hooking everything up to the amp. Molex connectors are for the pods so they can be easily removed.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

Do you realize this is like installation crack for me. I've only been able to work on my install a few hours a weekend at a time, as a matter of fact i was glassing out in the snow on Saturday......I wish i had heard of the flower foam trick earlier, could have saved me some tricky two part glassing. how do you dissolve the foam btw?


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I have made the "standoffs" for the big baffle and I have wrapped it in grill cloth. This is one of the rare cases where the picture looks better than the work itself (just with the grill cloth), but I'm not too concerned since I'll be making a custom dashmat after Christmas.

A SPECIAL THANKS TO VACTOR FOR SENDING ME THE 660GTi GRILLS. I SEARCHED HIGH AND LOW FOR THESE AND HE CAME THROUGH IN A BIG WAY!!!

Test fit before routing (I think the center pod "flows" better here). You can also see where the pod will bolt down (and I have nicer SS bolts coming too):










Routed:










And wrapped:










Holes


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

quietfly said:


> Do you realize this is like installation crack for me. I've only been able to work on my install a few hours a weekend at a time, as a matter of fact i was glassing out in the snow on Saturday......I wish i had heard of the flower foam trick earlier, could have saved me some tricky two part glassing. how do you dissolve the foam btw?


I just poked and prodded it with a flathead screwdriver and sucked everything out with the shop-vac after it broke free.

I appreciate the kind words BTW. I haven't had a 5-day work week in over a month, so all of this has been done between 6-9pm during the week and where I could find time on Sunday's. It hasn't been easy.


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## blackknight87 (Jul 11, 2011)

Thats an impressive front stage. Keep up the good work.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Ok, everybody is up to speed at this point. It's crazy that I could "sum" up a month's work in a couple hours worth of posting...but I did. The left and right pods are bolted to the dash, but I don't have a picture yet. Tonight I plan to stuff the dash with polyfil, route the wires, and install the rest of the speakers/pods. I'm going to see "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" tomorrow and so I'll (finger crossed) get everything wired Thursday. This will get the vehicle back on the road for Christmas. I will install the subs and rear-fill (plan to use factory rear door speakers for now) after Christmas but in a timely manner. Everything SHOULD be done in time for me to compete at Freezefest in February.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

pionkej said:


> I just poked and prodded it with a flathead screwdriver and sucked everything out with the shop-vac after it broke free.
> 
> I appreciate the kind words BTW. I haven't had a 5-day work week in over a month, so all of this has been done between 6-9pm during the week and where I could find time on Sunday's. It hasn't been easy.


OH I realize that, I know just how hard this is, and you are certainly more ambitious than I am. I commute 20-35 hours a week (over 1000 miles) and have been trying to get sound back in my Daily driver for the better part of 2 months.....


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Looks like you have been busy since we last conversed. It's looking phenomenal! I can't wait to read your thoughts on it once you get a tune on it. I'm sure you're getting antsy to hear how it sounds. I'd have found some way to fire it up by now just to see how far off my rocker I'd fallen to build such a thing. You clearly have more patience than I! I've no doubt that it will be eye-opening...


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## Fireseeker (Apr 21, 2008)

Subd


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

highly said:


> Looks like you have been busy since we last conversed. It's looking phenomenal! I can't wait to read your thoughts on it once you get a tune on it. I'm sure you're getting antsy to hear how it sounds. I'd have found some way to fire it up by now just to see how far off my rocker I'd fallen to build such a thing. You clearly have more patience than I! I've no doubt that it will be eye-opening...


I'm dying to hear how it sounds. I've listened to everything on the HT, but that's obviously not the car. As far as the eye-opener part...finger are crossed!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

So it's down to the wiring! I got everything installed tonight and will be wiring it all up on Thursday. I also managed to go ahead and replace the dustcaps on my JBL 1000GTi's that I'll be using. I'll try and get a better picture in the morning before heading to work. Hopefully I'll have some daylight to work with.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

Looking sweet.... Can't wait to hear your thoughts after you fire it up....
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Love the creativity....big thumbs up man!


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

I'd love to see a true wide angle photo of the entire dash in one shot, the blend of the side pods looks better every time i look at it.... Damn it... now i'm going to have these UN-realistic expectations of my attempt at them.... :laugh:


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

SUB'd, looking great !


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

Coming along nicely. Curious how wide the stage is..


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Looking great man, can't wait to hear it. Hope it all works out how you planned!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I appreciate all the kind words guys. I'm planning on staying up on Thursday till it's done...even if that means no sleep. So you guys should get an update by the weekend!



quietfly said:


> I'd love to see a true wide angle photo of the entire dash in one shot, the blend of the side pods looks better every time i look at it.... Damn it... now i'm going to have these UN-realistic expectations of my attempt at them.... :laugh:


We don't have a wide angle lens for our Canon SLR, but my father does on his Nikon. I'll make sure I get a picture before the weekend is over. Wide angle, better quality, in the daylight. 



BowDown said:


> Coming along nicely. Curious how wide the stage is..


I'm hoping it's the widest I've heard (who doesn't hope for that). I did everything I could to limit boundary reflections, everything within MECA Modex rules and my wife's "rules", so I'm hopeful that the front stage doesn't set width or depth at all. I'm hopeful that width and depth will be set by the rear and side speakers in the MS8 and it's L7 processing.

*Lot's of hope going on here...tis the season.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

A few more notes on the system as it stands.

1.) There are basically no acoustic treatments done to the vehicle at the moment. It isn't because I don't see value in them, but because I want to be able to go back and fix problem areas if/when/where they arise (another reason I made things easy to remove and access). The only things done are: foam filled a-pillars and metal crossmember, foam between baffle and pods and mounting surfaces, pod faces covered in 1/8" foam, and dash stuffed with foam (which brings me to the next item).

B.) The midbass are too far forward to externally vent. I also don't have enough room for true enclosures. I originally planned to put them in aperiodic enclosures, but have decided to hold off. The reasons came down to time (not enough to do it right now) and because I didn't like how it killed the modeled response on the low end. I stuffed the dash to help slow the rear wave down, but if it doesn't work I'll go back and add enclosures and membranes later. The "open baffle" should still keep the impedance peak outside of the passband (I've modeled everything to avoid this and I'll get into it more when I start with the sub enclosure design).

3.) If the baffle rattles the dash from the midbass, I plan to decouple it and mount it to the metal crossmember and the firewall instead. This would not be easy, so I went with the easier option first, but it can be done if needed. The plan is to make a truss that will bridge between the two (seen below--forgot to label the round part as the crossmember but I'm hoping this note was needed either). As you can see, options 1, B, and 3 show that accessability was important here and that's why I worked hard to achieve it.


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## jstn (Jul 30, 2008)

wow, unreal craftsmanship. great work.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

exelent job thus far. todd and aaron are great guys for sure. 

as far as the center pod, id like to have seen the left and right sides get the same plug treatme t that the corner pods got. i dont like the asthetics of its square shape that much - but your craftsmanship has been awesome. im interested to see how the stage reacts to the setuo, thats for sure. i have some ideas for directivity controlled lens syoe things that id like to try as well though. most of the ideas out there have already been tried just not applied to car audio, or had DIYs yet =)

i think you are going to run into vibrations in the dash plastics though sir. from my expeirence, its hard to isolate but its possible to tame. im interested to see how strong it will be though.

overall its a very unique and interesting build with a well described writeup. exelent job sir, i enjoied your explinatiins for why you are doing it thusly!

keep up the pro work!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Thank you for the comments, I've included my thoughts below. I don't take any of your comments as attacking, so please don't take my responses as defensive either (even if they are pointed).



req said:


> exelent job thus far. todd and aaron are great guys for sure.
> 
> as far as the center pod, id like to have seen the left and right sides get the same plug treatme t that the corner pods got. i dont like the asthetics of its square shape that much - but your craftsmanship has been awesome.
> 
> ...


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I want to go ahead and discuss my plan for the subs even though I haven't started building the enclosures yet. I'm doing this for two reasons: because we have ANOTHER rain day so I have time at work to do it, and because maybe somebody will chime in with a reason it's a bad idea.

I mentioned about about trying to keep the impedance spike outside of the passband in all parts of this install. For the midbass that means crossing above 60hz and for the wideband above 200hz. The solutions for the first two are pretty simple, have a large enclosure, measure with WT3 in enclosure, and cross above that. The sub is a bit more tricky since Fs/Fc is usually right in the middle of the passband. I haven't seen anybody do what I'm trying (not claiming it's a first--just that I didn't "pull" this idea from anybody) and I'll admit I kind of lucked into it.

In my install, I'm limited to having subs in the hatch that don't restrict any of the storage area. This forced me to put the subs to the left and the right of the spare tire (I did get this idea from the Murano forum and JL's Stealthbox for the vehicle). I'm limited to 10's and they need to be around 6" deep or less. I wanted to run JBL subs, and I managed to find a pair of 1000GTi's to use. For those not familiar with them, they are VERY efficient, but also have a high Fs and lowish Xmax. I started modeling them in WinISD to figure the best box...

As box size decreases, Fc (Fs+enclosure) goes up and so does F3 (-3db point). I figured if I got the box size down to 0.85cu/ft, the Fc would actually move UP outside the passband (around 90hz). The problem was that I kept pushing the driver past maximum excursion with the power I had, and if I reduced power to not push the driver pasts it's limits, output suffered. So I decided to play around with ported alignments... 

As box size decreases, port length goes up but excursion goes down. I decided to try my 0.85cu/ft, and while the port length is long (4"dia. x 21" length), excursion is below Xmax (and that of the sealed box), group delay is better, output is better (modeled 2db increase over sealed), it rolls off nearly the same (after filters), and Fc stays above the intended crossover point! 

I have room for the port length so I'm going to try this design first. I've included some screen caps below of how everything models. It compares 2.0cu/ft sealed (yellow), 0.85cu/ft sealed (blue) and 0.85cu/ft ported (orange). I'm sorry the blue lines are a bit hard to see...just squint real hard. 

Roll-off without a highpass filter:










Roll-off with a highpass filter:










Excursion (with filters):










Group delay (with filters):










Port velocity (obviously of ported sub only--with filters):










And Fc (impedance spike):


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

just be acareful with the diameter of that port and the velocity, you might run into some nasty chuffing. sounds like it could work though!! =)


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

req said:


> just be acareful with the diameter of that port and the velocity, you might run into some nasty chuffing. sounds like it could work though!! =)


The rule of thumb I've heard (and try and go by) is: 

-if port diameter is 4"+, keep length to less than 30" and vent mach under 25m/s (to avoid "chuffing")

-if port diameter is 4"-, keep length to less than 20" and vent mach under 15m/s (to avoid "whistling")

That may not be completely accurate, but it's worked pretty well for me in the past. I also used unibox to model the sub since it will account for polyfil/stuffing and it shows vent length shortening to 18.5". It also helps reduce both the Fc peaks modeled above to around half.


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

pionkej said:


> The rule of thumb I've heard (and try and go by) is:
> 
> -if port diameter is 4"+, keep length to less than 30" and vent mach under 25m/s (to avoid "chuffing")
> 
> ...


PM sent....


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Bit of bummer news fellas...car didn't get wired up last night. My wife was sick, and being pregnant and having six houses to visit over the weekend, caring for her took an obvious priority. 

Things are looking positive for getting off on Monday and I'm hoping to get it done then.


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## shawnk (Jan 11, 2010)

Very cool build! Subcribed!


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

pionkej said:


> Things are looking positive for getting off on Monday and I'm hoping to get it done then.


Nothing like a little sexual gratification.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

BowDown said:


> Nothing like a little sexual gratification.


 Touche' sir. Game, set, match. 










For the record, "getting off" meant work and I'll admit it's kind of sad that I still don't know if I'll have tomorrow or Monday off yet...but..."it is what it is".


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## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

Great Build Log. Excellent workmanship!!!


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

subd'


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

First, I hope everybody who has been checking-in had a good holiday weekend. Progress has slowed a bit, but I have a minor update anyways. 

Progress has slowed for two reasons: 

--I got the car back together to drive around for Christmas and forgot to "accidently" cut the line on the factory amp. That means my wife still has factory audio (minus the tweeters that were where the left and right midbass are now) AND knows she doesn't have to drive my 6-speed Maxima anymore. Needless to say...she isn't giving me the Murano back to work on.  So I'm working on it in my spare time after she and I both get home from work.

--I got CoD:MW3 for Christmas and have been "selfish" in playing it a bit instead of working in the dark and cold on the Murano after my real work is done for the day. 

BUT, I'm hoping to get everything done before the weekend still. I'm dying to hear it and want to get it going. I have everything back together up front except for the glove box, all the wires are run to the back of the vehicle, and I removed the crap DVD player install done for the previous owner (more on this below). I plan to build the amp rack tonight and get everything wired up that I can. This means all I'll have left to do is connect power and ground to the distribution block and splice the factory signal harness to the MS8 after that is done. 

So back to the DVD player install. The Murano had two strange problems I promised to solve while working on the build. The first was an odd buzz that came from below the driver seat and occured any time any door was opened, closed, locked, unlocked and occassionaly randomly while driving. The second was that no air came out of drive side vents (located in the B-pillar) for the rear passengers. In removing the DVD player and it's wiring, I uncovered both issues. The "buzz" was coming from one of two relays that had been very carefully crammed below the driver seat. The lack of air flow came from a lack of ductwork. See, in cramming every bit of wiring below the seat and in the pillar, the installer(s) must have run out of room, and decided something like a vent for the rear passengers was not needed and therefore removed/trashed it.  Now I'm on a quest to replace the vent that is MIA.

For all the picture hungry...here is what I pulled from below the seat and B-pillar:


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

whatcha want for that player and screen?

lol.


Glad to see you back at it. Go ahead and get all that selfishness out of your system ASAP.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> whatcha want for that player and screen?
> 
> lol.


I gave the DVD player to my friend Oscar the Grouch.  Trust me, you didn't want a cheap DVD player from 2003 that was missing a remote and had some sort of soda spilled on it (from inside the center console ).




> Glad to see you back at it. Go ahead and get all that selfishness out of your system ASAP.


You obviously have no idea how awesome it is to drive your wife insane by playing a game that repeats "we've taken the lead" and "UAV airborne" around 30+ times a game.  I'll get to it though.


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## slade1274 (Mar 25, 2008)

In to hear how this unique approach works out.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

:laugh: ZOMBIES ZOMBIES ZOMBIES......:laugh: 

I love Search and destroy.....

MW3 is totally the bomb...

Enjoy...


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Well, I didn't get as much done as I hoped last night...and I didn't even play the game at all. I swear. 

I ran into a small issue when cutting out the board for the false floor. I'm using 1/2" MDF here and the thickness was putting the MS8 within 1/4" of the spare tire cover panel (which I don't care for because of potential heat issues). I can't go any lower since the MDF is sitting on the spare tire. The solution was to "thin" the panel where the MS8 goes. 

First, I had to figure out where I wanted everything to go (sorry, no picture, but it looks just like "Third").

Second, I made an outline of the MS8 in pencil, went over that with a chisel-tip marker (to make the outline thicker for clearance), and carefully routed the area out 1/4" deep (for a total of around 1/2" clearance):










Third, I put everything back to make sure it all lined up again (the empty space to the left of the disto blocks is where the iPod will reside):


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Awesome! Did you freehand the route or use a straight edge?


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Awesome! Did you freehand the route or use a straight edge?


Freehand. 

Since I was leaning over the router, safety glasses and a NIOSH mask were used. I also put the shop vac hose beside the router to help (I couldn't use the vacuum port because of visibility issues).


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## eltico7213 (Oct 26, 2011)

cant wait to see how the rest goes.!


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## Salami (Oct 10, 2007)

pionkej said:


> Second, I made an outline of the MS8 in pencil, went over that with a chisel-tip marker (to make the outline thicker for clearance), and carefully routed the area out 1/4" deep (for a total of around 1/2" clearance):


Great idea!!!

And thanks for posting it here!!! This just solved the clearance issue I have with mine under the seat. I am going to route out mine so I do not scratch the next MS-8 that goes under there. 


If you came up with this sooner there would not be that scratch on the right bottom corner of the other one you have.


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## slade1274 (Mar 25, 2008)

Nice solution.... did that once on a sub mount I did- messy work for sure!

Tip for those going to try it- do the outline first, then move from center out to keep adequate base support for the router.

Another way is to cut inside with jig saw and use a rabbeting bit to cut a ledge for the component to sit on. Great option to provide more air for an amplifier.....


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I appreciate the compliments guys.



slade1274 said:


> Nice solution.... did that once on a sub mount I did- messy work for sure!
> 
> Tip for those going to try it- do the outline first, then move from center out to keep adequate base support for the router.
> 
> Another way is to cut inside with jig saw and use a rabbeting bit to cut a ledge for the component to sit on. Great option to provide more air for an amplifier.....


I'm glad you pointed that out about the router. I learned the hard way.  The first time I did this (on my IB setup for the Maxima) I DIDN'T plan ahead and had to "float" the router to get the center cut out.  Working from the inside out is a good option. I opted to go from top to bottom (left to right as the amp lies) and worked right to left (the feed direction of the router) like a typewriter. This allowed me to lean over the front and watch my line while still having all the material behind the router to serve as a base for stability.

I got a bit more work done last night. I wrapped the panel in a Microfiber (synthetic suede), screwed the MS8/JL amps/distro blocks to the panel, and got the power and ground connected for the amps (remote turn-on lead is just connected to both JL plugs so I could get everything hooked up--it will be connected to the MS8's "rem. out" and cleanly routed before being installed):


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

All this from the guy who at finals said he was fine with a simple discrete system. lol. I want to hear this when you get it all tuned up.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

schmiddr2 said:


> All this from the guy who at finals said he was fine with a simple discrete system. lol. I want to hear this when you get it all tuned up.


That was in my Maxima. This is my wife's Murano. I guess you could say that I'm having my cake and eating it too. 

EDIT: I actually don't think that quote applies, but I still wasn't technically lying when I told you that.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Ahh. Makes more sense now. And that is a good plan; hope she appreciates the sound after this much work. gl


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I hope everyone had a Happy New Year. I certainly enjoyed getting to listen/demo my newly powered up system! That's right...I have gotten everything powered up as of Saturday. I'm going to do the opposite of what I normally do and post pictures first, and I'll get "wordy" with my impressions in the next post.

I stayed up on Friday in the dark getting the entire trunk pulled:



















Looking for the balanced line-level inputs and the remote turn-on lead:










So after working on Saturday, I came home and worked on the car before heading out for New Year's Eve. I moved quickly and got everything soldered to the factory harness:










And I got the amp rack installed between the spare tire and the hatch area (this isn't completed yet and the speaker wires will be cleaned up and the RCA's will be replaced with custom ones):


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I know many people have shown interest in how this project turns out, and I'm a bit unsure how to word my listening impressions thus far. 

I will start with the "easy" stuff. I don't have any issues with rattles or resonances in the midbass at this point. I'm EXTREMELY pleased with this since everything is bolted to the dash. I checked this with Spanish Harlem, Bass Resonance, and Dynamics Test tracks on the Chesky Demonstration disk. None of the tracks seem to "light up" the midbass at all. In the midrange, I DO have a bit of sibilance *If anybody is curious, the best track I've personally used for this is 'Bastard' by Ben Folds--if you have sibilance issues, he will "shout" at you and will whistle like Paul Harvey when he sings the chorus.* I also have a bit of resonance/distortion at high volumes. I believe this is from a 500hz crossover point, but it only occurs in the center (which makes sense since about 90% of the midrange information comes from the center in a MS8/L7 system). It doesn't seem to be a resonance issue from the inclosure. *I check for this using simple tracks that play the Ukelele as it seems highlight that problem without having other information "mask" it. I like Jason Mraz 'I'm Your's' and Ingrid Michaelson 'You and I'.* I plan to recalibrate with a center crossover point of 700hz and cutting a bit around 4khz to see if both those issues go away. I'm very optimistic that they can/will be pretty easily fixed.

So now I'll try and tackle the "unique" part of the project with the baffles/waveguides and their results. I'd like to point out there are obviously no subs or rear-fill speakers, yet, and both play a large role in the final sound with the MS8 (and I think both will have a HUGE bearing in my install). Having said that, I'm still very pleased with what I'm hearing so far. I don't think I've heard anything sound like what my system sounds like, and that is what makes it hard to give a good description. Because of this, I want to be very cautions with how I say things because I could end up totally wrong in my assumptions. 

The width at this point is determined by the recording. What this means is that tracks that have clear boundaries in a limited bandwidth stop at the pillars. The tracks I used for this are The King's Singers 'The Boxer', the intro to MJ's 'Thriller', and 'Three People Describing Position on Sound Stage in Stereo' from the Sheffield Labs album. I consider this an initial success since everything I've read is that "true width" should be determined by speaker locations and the recording and "perceived width" is determined by nearfield reflections, farfield reflections, and by "trickery" (methods of simulating/manipulating farfield reflections to increase perceived width). Everything outside of these tracks that I tried had very "odd" results (which is why it's so hard to describe). What I mean by odd is that my stage doesn't seem to end at the pillars but it doesn't seem to extend beyond it either. In this case, I believe it is best to revert to the "non-trained" ear for comments...and the one I got the most is that it sounded like a home stereo. When I asked for more details, this generally meant that the listener didn't feel like they were in a car. I didn't lead the listeners at all and simply asked them to close their eyes and tell me what they thought. Even though most people said it sounded like a home stereo, I got one, my brother, that said it sounded like his B&W headphones. That huge difference is what makes it so hard for me to describe. To ME, it doesn't feel like I'm in a car. To ME, the stereo has the best defined center I've ever heard. The way I described it to my brother (after he mentioned the headphone affect) was: "I hear the center very clearly. I don't hear a location for the left or right speakers. It doesn't sound like I'm listening to just one speaker in mono, but it doesn't sound like there is a left or right either. It sounds like things start in the center and then fades to the left and right until the sound just 'disappears'." 

Depth and Height? I've never been very good with depth. I've never noticed a big difference between cars that claim windshield depth vs. hood depth. I DID notice a difference in how "deep" the soundfield was when I added l-r rear-fill to my Maxima. In the Murano, depth seems to be at the end of the dash. Height is between my chin and my eyes depending on the track.

Tonality? I'm a bit hesitant to describe this since it can be so subjective, but I will say that I don't think anything sounds like it's coming from a speaker until I hit the resonance issues at high volumes with the center pod, and to me, that is a success. Is it cold or warm? Laid back or bright? I'll let someone else share those impressions after I demo the car at Freezefest (or sooner if that happens).

I'll finish with visiting "perceived" width and depth again. Since my system seems to play by the rules of "actual" width and depth, I'm very optimistic that adding rear-fill will enhance "perceived" width and depth. My goal of having no speaker in front determine width/depth and allow the MS8/L7 to provide those effects looks achievable. Is this something listeners or judges will like? Time will tell and I'm excited to see how it goes. For now though, I'm personally pleased with the sound, my wife is pleased with the sound, and those two things are good enough for me!


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Nice description  I really think things will get even better once u add rear fill. Keep us posted!


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## jhmeg2 (Nov 6, 2009)

very impresive work. I must say very well done, however, I was stuned at the fack that the amp rack wiring, was all run on yopn and exposed. Was this done in design, or did you possibly run out of steam? Please dont take it as an attack, I do a lot of fab work, but you have taken this one a bit further than I ever would have. Congradulations. II hope in time you may rewire the amp rack, to hide or cleanup the wire. over all. great job. I hope the sound surpasses your expectations, after all the hard work. Also, you got BALLS to cut up your new car like that. I know I'm not gonna cut up my Mercedes, for great sound. I will prolly move from MODEX back to stock plus, so I don't have to cut up the car like I did with my truck. I hope to meet you at a show along the line someday, to hear this creation... Again, well done.

One more thing, I think I missed the sub setup, or are you not using one, that would be awsome.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Good to hear, John. Sounds like the working is paying off. :thumbsup:


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

BigRed said:


> Nice description  I really think things will get even better once u add rear fill. Keep us posted!


Thank you. I am very optimistic that things will greatly improve once rear-fill is added. I plan to start working on that this week, so I hope to have some feedback soon.



jhmeg2 said:


> very impresive work. I must say very well done, however, I was stuned at the fack that the amp rack wiring, was all run on yopn and exposed. Was this done in design, or did you possibly run out of steam? Please dont take it as an attack, I do a lot of fab work, but you have taken this one a bit further than I ever would have. Congradulations. II hope in time you may rewire the amp rack, to hide or cleanup the wire. over all. great job. I hope the sound surpasses your expectations, after all the hard work. Also, you got BALLS to cut up your new car like that. I know I'm not gonna cut up my Mercedes, for great sound. I will prolly move from MODEX back to stock plus, so I don't have to cut up the car like I did with my truck. I hope to meet you at a show along the line someday, to hear this creation... Again, well done.
> 
> One more thing, I think I missed the sub setup, or are you not using one, that would be awsome.


All of the power wires on the amp rack have been routed with cable management clips and zip-tied together. The RCA's will be coming out for custom length ones eventually so I didn't worry about their routing at the moment. Everything WILL look clean and organized when done even though it won't be visible at all (that amp rack will be bolted to the hatch panel and will be connected to a hood strut so my wife can easily access the spare should the need arise). You also didn't see anything on the sub yet because it hasn't been built. I did post a few modeling plots, but that is it. I plan to start on the boxes this week along with the rear-fill and it should all be installed before the MECA Freezefest show in February.

And don't worry, I didn't take any of it as an attack.



bikinpunk said:


> Good to hear, John. Sounds like the working is paying off. :thumbsup:


I sure hope it does. It holds a lot of promise at the moment, and I'm optimistic the "headphone" sound will turn into "full" sound once lower frequencies and rear-fill are added. If I get it done well before Freezefest, I may try and make a run your way to show you what I got going and hear how your setup is coming along.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

sounds good. I'll be competing at that show so we may be going head to head! I hate you!!!!

lol. 

If you get a chance before then and want to come out, come on down, by all means. I'm looking forward to hearing it once you finish it all up.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Just saw an ad for a new DD dash kit for the Murano.... it was made by Metra


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## jhmeg2 (Nov 6, 2009)

oh, ok. if you've gone this far with the front end, I can't wait to see the sub section. where is freezfest?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Freezefest is in Lebanon, TN.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

trojan fan said:


> Just saw an ad for a new DD dash kit for the Murano.... it was made by Metra


Thank you so much. This is AWESOME news! I just saw it on the Murano forums where they have a couple of members doing beta testing and they should be out in the next couple of months. I will be keeping a close eye on this.

I actually like the OEM look, but the Ipod adapter just plain sucks. It goes through the Sat receiver function and you can't select "Albums" after selecting "Artist". This means if I want to hear 'Enter Sandman' by Metallica I have to scroll through 72 songs and 111 if I want to hear 'For Whom the Bell Tolls'.  Not to mention the fact it doesn't bypass the Ipod's DAC and it doesn't recognize/charge my Iphone.


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## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> sounds good. I'll be competing at that show so we may be going head to head! I hate you!!!!
> 
> lol.


Lol. I'm looking forward to getting a listen to both cars guys.


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## derekgates (Jan 3, 2012)

I am floored at the work you have put into this system. I can't wait for it to be finished so you can describe how the whole package sounds!

Great work!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Minor update. I finished getting the lower half of the dash back together over the weekend (glove box and area below steering wheel). While doing this I also stuffed another couple pounds of poly-fil in there as well. Between adding the panels and the extra stuffing, there was a noticeable drop in cabin noise from the engine. I didn't measure the difference simply because I knew the panels were always going back in, so subjective opinion is all I have to offer. I'm happy that no rattles have shown up still and it looks like no additional acoustic treatments will be needed.

While I was "tinkering" I also changed the crossover point for the center from 525hz to 700hz. Slope remained 24db for both. This DID improve the "enclosure" sound I described and doesn't seem to have imparted any negatives in the process. I'm still a bit hot in the 4khz range, and still plan to address that with the 31-band eq before competing.

I hope to make some good progress later this week with the rear-fill and the dashmat. Expect pictures and a good update on Wednesday or Thursday. For tonight...I'm going to see if the SEC can manage to win another National Championship this year.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

To the people following this, I'm sorry the updates have slowed. I actually hoped to have the "rear" part of my rear-fill done and updated. However, I made the mistake of thinking I could wrap the pod without adding bracing and as a result, the corners pulled and warped the panel so it wouldn't fit (at least I checked before reinforcing the inside).

For those confused by my description, I took some pictures this time!

Baffle for "rear" rear-fill (in a quasi-6.1 setup):










After I put a 45 on the back (to square the baffle with the listener when installed) and a roundover on the sides. Note that the how the side facing the router bit looks uneven on purpose because the panel itself is slightly curved (it's still a bit uneven, but we won't focus on my band-saw skills ):










Hot glued in place (without dowels for bracing ):










And checking fitment:










I was going to take a picture of it wrapped, but after it didn't pass the test-fit, I just snapped pictures (below) to show how the plastic was pulled up just enough while stretching the material to prevent proper fitment. I'll re-wrap and re-resin tonight.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

So I fixed my rear-fill mistake and got it resined last night. In the picture above you can see that the 45 I put on the baffle was too aggressive and had the speakers aimed slightly downward. Since I had to do it again, I made the angle closer to 70 degrees which made it much more square with the listener. I also added bracing to keep the plastic panel from bowing as I stretched the material. I plan to remove the braces and reinforce the pod with chop mat on the inside tonight.

Wrapped (MUCH harder this time with the steeper front baffle angle)










Resined (you can see the bracing in the second picture)


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Progress is still moving slowly, but I'm getting there. The pod has been reinforced with fiberglass on the inside and I just got done putting down some coats of truck bed coating. It will get a light sand tomorrow and some SEM coatings to match the interior. 

Cut out the bottom with my dremel:










Removed dowels:










Test fit (no pictures of adding fiberglass to the inside):



















Painted with bed liner:


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

looking good


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

About as close to a factory match as I can get and I'm happy with it. I'm hoping to get it wired up and installed over the weekend.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Good job, John!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

highly said:


> Good job, John!


Thanks. I'm axious to see what this does for appearant width and depth. I'm hopeful it helps with both factors, but I'm looking to add some side fill to the doors as well to further help width. Well see what the weekend holds!


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## funkalicious (Oct 8, 2007)

Excellent work and creativity. Subscribed.


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

Dude you must clank when you walk cause youve got brass balls! There is no way I could cut the dash like that on a brand spankin' new, $30,000+ ride. Impressive sir. Never wouldve thought about going with a setup like that either. So youre obviously smarter than me as well.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Can't believe I've missed this thread... Really impressive and love how you describe in simple terms what you're doing and what you hear. 

Keep up the good work. 

Kelvin


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Update...probably the most productive week I've had in a while. I got the pod finished, I test fit it and it's all good, I got the wires run, I made progress on the dashmat I'll be adding to the front, and I got the templates cut for the subs! 

Let's start with the pod. I got everything ready to go including running the wiring. The only thing I didn't do is build a grill, which I will do later. I didn't get it powered up because I forgot that my distribution block can't handle another amp, and so I ordered one that should be here mid-week, I'll have rear-fill by the weekend!

Wiring the speakers:










Molex added for easy disconnect:










Hot glued in place:










And in the car (I know the car needs a wash)










Not much to show now on the subs other than the templates. I think this is going to end up being the toughest part. I need right around 1 cu/ft in volume and I can't sit above the OEM floor or remove the spare tire...so I'm going to the left and the right side of the spare. As if irregular shapes from the top to bottom aren't enough to deal with, the floor also holds a compound angle. From the front to back, there is a 1" drop, from left to right, there is a 1/4" skew. Here's what I have so far (bottom on the left and top on the right):










In order to build the dashmat I have planned, I need a level surface. To fill the "valley" between the midbass speakers, I used open cell foam (3/4" of it). I also tried my hand at making grills for the first time so the mat wouldn't sag as it sits over the left and right midbass. I have done one side so far (the one pictured). It isn't perfect, and I will paint it to improve the looks, but it will also be covered and unseen, so I'm happy with the outcome. If you're seeing this and curious how I did it, check the how-to section of this forum.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

funkalicious said:


> Excellent work and creativity. Subscribed.





MacLeod said:


> Dude you must clank when you walk cause youve got brass balls! There is no way I could cut the dash like that on a brand spankin' new, $30,000+ ride. Impressive sir. Never wouldve thought about going with a setup like that either. So youre obviously smarter than me as well.





subwoofery said:


> Can't believe I've missed this thread... Really impressive and love how you describe in simple terms what you're doing and what you hear.
> 
> Keep up the good work.
> 
> Kelvin



Thanks for the kind words guys. Seeing the "surge" of interest had me motivated to make good on my comments of progress. That and knowing my first MECA competition is less than 30 days out.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Progress!

Dude, you're tearing a path! I'm already looking over my shoulder in regards to competing against you.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Progress!
> 
> Dude, you're tearing a path! I'm already looking over my shoulder in regards to competing against you.


We'll see about that last part. I feel I'm about 50% there towards giving you a run for your money, but I'm also only about 50% done.  

I'm seriously anxious to hear what the rear-fill does since I think it will give me a clear idea of how well my ideas are working. There is a lot that's missing right now because of the lack of real output below 80hz and the rear-fill part of L7's functions. I'll give an honest opinion of it as soon as it's all hooked up...then you'll know if you have something to worry about.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

i'm interested to know what you think about how the rear stage effects the overall sound, I know it made a huge improvement for me.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

pionkej said:


> We'll see about that last part. I feel I'm about 50% there towards giving you a run for your money, but I'm also only about 50% done.
> 
> I'm seriously anxious to hear what the rear-fill does since I think it will give me a clear idea of how well my ideas are working. There is a lot that's missing right now because of the lack of real output below 80hz and the rear-fill part of L7's functions. I'll give an honest opinion of it as soon as it's all hooked up...then you'll know if you have something to worry about.


If it turns out good, I'm hitting the reset button on your MS-8 when I demo your car before judging at Freezefest. LOL!


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

lol, thats skeevy erin! 

you arent supposed to tell him that hahah 

and pionkej, to get the grill shape you want, just get a router or other circle thing, and cut out a hole of the desired size. then make another circle that is like 1\8" smaller (this gap might take some testing to get right) and do a roundover on it with the router.

then put your mesh material over the hole, and put the circle over that, and pound it in there with a hammer. like i said, getting the gap right will take some trial\error. but it should stretch the mesh into a nice curve for you


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

bikinpunk said:


> If it turns out good, I'm hitting the reset button on your MS-8 when I demo your car before judging at Freezefest. LOL!


LOL thats so wrong... :laugh:


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Teaser post. Rear fill is in. More to report tomorrow.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

That, sir, is what I want to hear! Look forward to tomorrow's post(s)!


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## nepl29 (Mar 25, 2007)

Very impressive build!!! Keep up the good work!


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Great install. Lots of good ideas in this one!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

So, the rear-fill is finally in the car and I am very pleased with the results. I listened to several different tracks to evaluate (though I only spent about 10 minutes doing so at midnight) and I listened to those same tracks prior to hooking everything up for as close to an a/b comparison as possible. I wanted to play a known, well-recorded track (that wasn't likely to contain lots of out of phase information), a live track, and a track that makes heavy use of hard panned and out of phase material. My selections were:

1.) Dire Straights-Money for Nothin
2.) Brad Paisley-Water (Live)
3.) A Perfect Circle-Counting Bodies Like Sheep

1.) I felt this was a great track for evaluation because it is well mastered. It has a good amount of hard panned information (so left and right would get "standalone" duty and width could be evaluated) but is not likely to have a bunch of out of phase "tricks" mastered into the song. I was right about the latter because even when I moved to the back seats, it was hard to tell the rear fill was even playing. It seems to have played just enough however, as height has increased and I believe depth did slightly as well. Width did not change, but I honestly wasn't expecting it to and the width is still from pillar to pillar. Since my a/b comparison was not immediate, I'm cautious to say that depth increased since it could just be my wishful thinking (i.e. psychoacoustics), but it does seem to sit slightly further back than previously. Previously, height would sit somewhere between the center pod and the glass above it, it nows is planted firmly on the windshield. I know rear-fill isn't typically known for increasing height, but the speakers are phycially located high and I believe there is just enough information to raise everything a bit (similar to pillar tweets bringing up midbass in the kicks) even though it is coming from behind my head. In the case of Money for Nothin, I consider the improvement to be as good as I had hoped for on a track that had minimal amounts of out of phase information.

2.) The most impressive part of this song was the fact that about 10 seconds in, I hear, what sounds like, people screaming directly behind me. The reason this is so impressive is because it is distinctly coming from behind with no similar sounds coming from the front. Live tracks are great for gaining percieved width, but this is usually a factor of reflections, and if you look for it, you will realize they are only reflections because the sounds created are not unique. It is more often than not, just a jumbled mess that appears larger than something that is actually larger (thanks to Highly/Todd for pointing this out to me at Finals last year). With the rear fill now playing, width appears to sit just outside the pillars (exceeds the boundaries of the car) and the sound field is submersive (I'm in the middle of the crowd). In the case of Water (Live), I consider the improvements to be better than I had hoped for, but also not surpising because of my previous experience with L-R rear fill (Zapco amps) and L7 processing (MS8 in my Maxima).

3.) This track...this track exceeded my expectations. I have listened to it on my "L-R" Zapco and MS8 systems in my Maxima and neither sounded as good. Tool/APC material is usually pretty well mastered, but also uses lots of "tricks" in the process. I like this particular track because it has hard panned information that alternates between left and right and "pulses" with out of phase information. In the Murano, the experience was scary cool (pretty technical huh ). When the track starts, only the hard panned information alternates back and forth and the width of this effect "crept" outside of the boundaries of the car. I was already grinning, but then the out of phase information began. As these "pulses" happened, it seemed as if that width was "curling" and "reaching" for me (almost like fingers coming from the left and right and reaching past me). I'm having a hard time descibing it any way other than that, and I hope it makes sense...though I feel it is somewhat appropriate due to the brooding nature of this music. In the case of Counting Bodies Like Sheep, I consider the improvements to be better than I hoped for and far exceeded my expectations even with my previous rear fill experiences.

This has certainly motivated me to get my subs done before Freezefest as I know all of these tracks have good amounts of bass content and can only imagine what I'll get out of that. 

If anybody has any other tracks they would like to suggest, I would love to evaluate them and try and get a good summary of my thoughts posted up here as well.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Madonna's "live to tell" has some funky phase stuff as well as Phil Collins' voice in "in the air tonight". 


Glad to hear your positive results man. Keep up the great work!


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Cool to hear its working out for u. I've always experienced increased height as a result of rear fill. I don't have a scientific explanation for it, but unlike some people, I'm ok with "it just works" . I'll give u a list if songs that I have used for rear fill testing later. Right now off the top of my head try Patricia barber with the finger snaps (forgot the name of it)


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Edit


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Edit


I was gonna say. You want me to listen to Madonna so bad you had to post it twice??? 

I appreciate the encouraging words, and I'm looking forward to your opinion at Freezefest (though I do have the reset button booby-trapped).


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

BigRed said:


> Cool to hear its working out for u. I've always experienced increased height as a result of rear fill. I don't have a scientific explanation for it, but unlike some people, I'm ok with "it just works" . I'll give u a list if songs that I have used for rear fill testing later. Right now off the top of my head try Patricia barber with the finger snaps (forgot the name of it)


Yeah, my "reason" for the extra perceived height is just a WAG too, though it seems to make sense because I didn't really get the same gains in my Maxima where the difference between front and rear physical height is only an inch or so.

Suggestions are always welcome. I'm wanting to go through the Chesky disc and listen to more live tracks too.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

if you can find a copy of the track Keith don't go by Nils Lofgren. try that one out its a great live track to test ambiance


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## Salami (Oct 10, 2007)

pionkej said:


> I listened to those same tracks prior to hooking everything up for as close to an a/b comparison as possible.


Super easy to a/b test with the MS-8.



Save your current settings with L7 and rear fill on as the first favorite. 

Use the fader in the MS-8 to fade the rear speakers all the way off. Save as second favorite. 

You can even save another with L7 off. 



Then you can simply toggle back in forth in the middle of the song instantly.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Wondering if you could have had more width with your rear-fill sitting on the sides instead of right in the middle... 

Kelvin


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Salami said:


> Super easy to a/b test with the MS-8.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a great idea. I honestly hadn't dug into the tone controls enough to even realize there was a fader function. I'll have to check that out when I get some more listening time.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

subwoofery said:


> Wondering if you could have had more width with your rear-fill sitting on the sides instead of right in the middle...
> 
> Kelvin


My logic behind the location was three-fold:

1.) I took a cue from PB's 'One Tweeter' thread and ran with the theory of having a signal coming from further "in" than another can actually create an additional sense of width. In my case, it was rear-fill midrange+ in relation to my front left and right pods responsible for midrange+.

2.) I felt that this location was the best at minimizing reflections without having to implement lots of acoustic treatments. It could be argued that reflections are not a bad thing with rear-fill, but I felt the system is still producing a unique signal with each channel and therefore still subject to comb-filtering which may cause issues. I don't think that you want the sound to be directly radiated at you (which is why I didn't use any "waveguides" like up front), but I saw no harm in minimizing the speakers proximity to reflective surfaces like the side windows. 

3.) I'm trying to minimize the cost associated with going back to stock should the need arise, and the tail lamp cover was much less expensive the the huge left and right side rear pillar covers. At this point, I'm out a dash ($150+shipping on e-bay) and a tail lamp cover ($15 at dealership) which I consider to be pretty good for all that I've done.

Right now, I have better benefits from rear fill in this car than I got from my Maxima. It could be the different drivers being used, it could be the front stage difference, or it could be the driver locations, I'm not sure...but I'm not complaining either.  I do still have two free channels on my amp, and I may end up trying to put another set of speakers in the doors. I didn't want to do this as my first step because the rear door locations are low and very forward and therefore easily blocked from presenting higher frequency (shorter wavelength) information.

Please don't take any of that as being attacking, as I'm always welcome to questions as discussions. Please also don't take any of the rudimentary explinations (such as 'shorter wavelength') to be directed at you, because, while you did ask the question, I wanted to present it in a way that hopefully makes sense to anybody else who is interested. I hope my impressions didn't come across as me being dissapointed with the width or wishing I'd spent more time planning (when in reality I felt I had a pretty good plan laid out), because I'm very happy with the results so far.


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## slade1274 (Mar 25, 2008)

pionkej said:


> 3.) I'm trying to minimize the cost associated with going back to stock should the need arise, and the tail lamp cover was much less expensive the the huge left and right side rear pillar covers. At this point, I'm out a dash ($150+shipping on e-bay) and a tail lamp cover ($15 at dealership) which I consider to be pretty good for all that I've done.


 +1
****... I should have investigated this earlier with my build- the ashtray mod for the DRC cost me $260 as they don't sell the internal stuff, so had to buy the whole front center console panel.... to which I didn't use because the "wood grain" was too far off to match. Just did an internal gut swap.


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## lancewhitefield (Sep 29, 2009)

Following thread


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

Personally I know a few guys that will be doing Modex near you and they would appreciate you not using any subs. 



make it fair for them... LOL


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

DAT said:


> Personally I know a few guys that will be doing Modex near you and they would appreciate you not using any subs.
> 
> 
> 
> make it fair for them... LOL


I'm not going to go counting any chickens yet...but I'll admit that I hope to at least be a contender in my class. 

I'm hoping to get some good progress made on the sub enclosures this weekend. I have the top and bottom panels cut for both sides, but the sides need to be glassed. In order to clear everything and still maximize volume, the top and bottom only share one common straight side, and it's about 8" long (far left starting at the bottom to the curve cut to clear the spare). Since the box will also slope 1.25" from front to back (to sit flush with the floor), it's not worth the time to cut that one piece out of wood. I actually was going to have both boxes ready for wrapping last night when I realized the dowels, pictured, were all cut without taking the top panel thickness into account.  By the time I realized it, my "garage time" was over and so it gets pushed to today...I'll still take that over building a box that's too tall and not realizing it till it's too late though.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

DAT said:


> Personally I know a few guys that will be doing Modex near you and they would appreciate you not using any subs.
> 
> 
> 
> make it fair for them... LOL


that class is going to be STACKED this year.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> that class is going to be STACKED this year.


Yeah it is! I didn't know how to take the compliment without painting a target on my back. I certainly appreciate the kind words, and I DO hope to be a contender this year, but I don't presume anything (and that certainly includes placing, let alone winning, in a field chock-full of great sounding cars).

**I mean everything I said above EXCEPT in relation to this Honda Civic that keeps competing in Modex. That car sounds like one of those cheap beach coolers with speakers built in...and I plan to dominate THAT car...whoever's it is. :laugh:

EDIT 1: Dave, I DO still appreciate the kind words. I am really excited about getting the subs in and seeing what they can do.

EDIT 2: I don't know if whoever or whomever is correct to use above, but hopefully you get the point.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

pionkej said:


> Yeah it is! I didn't know how to take the compliment without painting a target on my back. I certainly appreciate the kind words, and I DO hope to be a contender this year, but I don't presume anything (and that certainly includes placing, let alone winning, in a field chock-full of great sounding cars).


I agree entirely. Very well said. 




pionkej said:


> **I mean everything I said above EXCEPT in relation to this Honda Civic that keeps competing in Modex. That car sounds like one of those cheap beach coolers with speakers built in...and I plan to dominate THAT car...whoever's it is. :laugh:


I agree entirely. Very well said. ...

Wait... WHAT!?


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

bikinpunk said:


> I agree entirely. Very well said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 and so the young sith apprentice envies his master waiting for the one day weakness shows itself!!!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

More progress. I got the dowels cut to the proper length and everything glued n' screwed! Subs fit well on both sides and I'll hopefully get them checked in the hatch for final fitment before the weekend is over (I have a SUPER busy weekend and will be sharing a personal update tomorrow ), but for now...pictures.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Awesome progress. Can't wait to hear this car.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Time for the personal news update. I'm happy to announce that my wife and I have just found out that the baby we will welcome into the world this June...is going to be a GIRL!


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

pionkej said:


> Time for the personal news update. I'm happy to announce that my wife and I have just found out that the baby we will welcome into the world this June...is going to be a GIRL!


Sweet!!! thats big news


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

pionkej said:


> Time for the personal news update. I'm happy to announce that my wife and I have just found out that the baby we will welcome into the world this June...is going to be a GIRL!


Awesome. Congrats!

Get ready! Lol.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

SCHWEET


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Sweeet azz  Congrats

Kelvin


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Thanks a ton for the congrats. We're super excited...though I'm dreading being wrapped around her finger, which I've been told is inevitable.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

pionkej said:


> Time for the personal news update. I'm happy to announce that my wife and I have just found out that the baby we will welcome into the world this June...is going to be a GIRL!



congrats and good luck!!!

my "baby girl" will turn 19 this year,

Did i mention good luck?

LOL 
:laugh:


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Dashmat is done too btw. I finished it last night. Update with pics tomorrow.


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## DaveRulz (Jun 22, 2006)

you have about 13 years to practice intimidation and become adept with firearms. Congrats on the girl, and the murano looks freaking sweet.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

What's funny about the "congrats but be ready" posts is that it's one of the first things I talked about with my buddies. What tactics dad's used on us when we were picking their daughters up. I think 'cleaning the gun on the dining room table' and 'crazy uncle visiting who just got out of prison' are my two favorites. The good news is I at least have some years ahead of me to prep for that part.

As far as getting back to car audio stuff in my thread, the temporary dashmat is done. I didn't originally plan on the temporary part, but as much as I love being able to do things on my own, I think this portion may be turned over to a professional. It does look MUCH better than the bolted down baffle with makeshift grills (so it will stay for now), but it's not perfectly smooth and it doesn't have a like-oem feel to it. 

To make things worse, I actually have midbass resonance now from the mat!  You don't hear it much with most songs, but the Chesky track (the one that will be used in MECA this year) lights it up. Now, I'm crossing the midbass really low right now, so I'm hoping the problem goes away when I add subs and raise the crossover, but if it doesn't, I do have a couple of ideas on how to fix it. My first thought is to put a piece of 1/8" foam over the grill itself, just to give two soft surfaces to contact. Next up would be making a 1/4" spacer ring to slid under the mat for competition to help prevent buzzing. If anybody, fellow competitors included , has any other good ideas to try...I'm all ears.

One last note if fellow MS8 users are following. I needed to re-tune after adding the dashmat, and I tried something different on a whim. First, I just re-ran acoustic calibration and noted the results. The system sounded nearly the same as it did before with the exception of a slight increase in focus/detail thanks to a further reduction in reflections (felt real, but could be psychoacoustics at work). One thing about the system that I haven't loved is that I felt it lacked a certain amount "energy" on the top end. I was happy about this initially because I felt it showed how well the baffles/waveguides did at eliminating early reflections, but I wanted that "bite" back...reflection free. The sound was there, but I felt that things like cymbil crashes just weren't lifelike. I haven't touched the EQ yet, but felt that boosting it wasn't the right way to try and get it back, and while I'm using wideband drivers that roll-off a bit early, I know they can do what I wanted from testing the pods in my home. So...what I did was cut a piece of the foam I used for the dashmat and taped it over the mics on the headphones. My theory was that I just didn't like how much the MS8 rolled off the top end and the foam would attenuate those frequencies a bit, reducing the cut the MS8 made. I'm glad I tried it because I'm happy with the results. All I have are subjective opinions (I did this in the 10 minutes of free time I had yesterday), but I feel that it made a marked improvement. In most instances, you can't tell a difference, but on tracks that DO have that attack/bite, it's now there. I used Metallica's "For Whom the Bell Tolls" to do an A/B on the calibrations, and all that changed was that the cymbil crashes at the beginning now make me flinch...like they should. 

That's all I updates I have for now, but I do have a few pictures my father took with his SLR while we were in visiting:


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Dude, that looks really good. I didn't realize how the rear fill was being done. That looks like it'll work out great being further away from nearby surfaces. 

Regarding the resonance, use a material that isn't too stiff. I had more issues with ensolite than I did a t shirt. So now I have t shirts in my kicks under the carpet.


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## slade1274 (Mar 25, 2008)

pionkej said:


> cymbil crashes at the beginning now make me flinch...*like they should*.


 I like that statement.... too many want to dial all the "harshness" out of their system. Go to a live venue and a live cymbal and brass in instruments ARE harsh at times. Balance that "harshness" to realism FTW.




pionkej said:


> What's funny about the "congrats but be ready" posts is that it's one of the first things I talked about with my buddies. What tactics dad's used on us when we were picking their daughters up. I think 'cleaning the gun on the dining room table' and 'crazy uncle visiting who just got out of prison' are my two favorites. The good news is I at least have some years ahead of me to prep for that part.







And one of my favorites
from 0.25 to ~2.10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP4NWj4pjrc&feature=related


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## jhmeg2 (Nov 6, 2009)

Well, I was thinking of compeeting again this year, but now that I see what I'm up against..... Your right, this class is stacked, full od great sounding cars. I should go back to stock.... The front turned out very nice. I was a bit worried about the pods, but it turned out great, very nice looking dash. Also, congradulations on the new addition to the family. I would rather change daipers, than sand fiberglass...


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Dude, that looks really good. I didn't realize how the rear fill was being done. That looks like it'll work out great being further away from nearby surfaces.
> 
> Regarding the resonance, use a material that isn't too stiff. I had more issues with ensolite than I did a t shirt. So now I have t shirts in my kicks under the carpet.


I'm happy with the rear fill now, but I think I'll eventually add some sides too since I have two channels not being used on my Infinity Kappa amp. I'm toying with the idea of actually putting them in the front doors. I spoke with Andy about this and he told me it shouldn't do anything to the front image compared to rear door locations, but will: help eliminate the seats from blocking HF information and putting them in low in the stock door locations should keep my quest for reducing reflections in check.

That will come after I build the sub enclosures, re-do the dashmat, tidy up the wiring with custom RCA's, and finish the false floor in the trunk. Add all the baby excitement and it may be while before I try it out! 

As far as resonance, you and I are on the same wavelength there, and I'm thinking that using fleece to cover the speaker grills I made will be thin enough to not change the flat appearance of the mat but still provide a soft surface for the mat to rest on. I think the biggest problem is actually the backing on the suede, I don't think it's breathable enough to allow the air to easily pass through it, so a completely different solution/material may be required when I build the new mat.



slade1274 said:


> I like that statement.... too many want to dial all the "harshness" out of their system. Go to a live venue and a live cymbal and brass in instruments ARE harsh at times. Balance that "harshness" to realism FTW.
> 
> And one of my favorites


Yeah, I like the Chesky cd for testing "bite" on horns and older Metallica for cymbals (thanks for helping me catch I was spelling it cymbil). For Whom the Bell Tolls is really great because it's well recorded and when you're playing at realisitic levels, there are parts that really should make you flinch. I tried getting this in my Maxima, but was doing it with reflections amplifying those sounds, which lead to it being "exciting" but also very quickly fatiguing.

I own BB2 and thought of that scene when we discussed the "crazy uncle". Hell, the guy who told it to me may have even stole it from the movie instead of really experiencing it.  I didn't call him out on in though, and it's funny either way! What kicked off the whole conversation was my buddy, who just had a boy in November, telling me, "It looks like I'll only have one dick to worry about...while you're gonna have to worry about them all." 



jhmeg2 said:


> Well, I was thinking of compeeting again this year, but now that I see what I'm up against..... Your right, this class is stacked, full od great sounding cars. I should go back to stock.... The front turned out very nice. I was a bit worried about the pods, but it turned out great, very nice looking dash. Also, congradulations on the new addition to the family. I would rather change daipers, than sand fiberglass...


By all means, do compete if you're thinking about it. I've had some compliments pointing at me doing well, and that by no means is certain. Besides, for many of us, including me, the competitions are more a way for having an organized event where we can all get together and listen to cars and hang out, with the actual competition being secondary. So if you want to compete, come on out and have a good time doing it.

I also appreciate the comparison of diapers to fiberglass. It finally gives me a small point of reference to just how bad it is. I HATE sanding fiberglass, so I hope we're in the same boat there when the time comes. Funny story about diapers, I have a buddy who has a baby due two months before ours. He is SUPER sensitive to smells and his dad got him a real military grade gas mask as a gift. He sent me a picture of it and I just died laughing. I think "wimp" is a soft, but public forum appropriate, word for what I called him after showing me that.


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## Misanthropic (Apr 8, 2010)

Very well done. I am still dumbfounded by the amount of talent on this site. I've met seasoned carpenters and master electricians that would be out of their league around here. Amazing work and I wish you luck in your competitions this year. Or maybe I should wish your competitors luck?


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## jhmeg2 (Nov 6, 2009)

I know what you mean about compeeting being secondary. I too enjoy meeting up with you guys, and hanging out, and listening. I think, even if some people think that thier setup will not compeet with some of the installs here, they may be suprised, I used to get my systems to sound good to me. Now I try to get it to sound good for others.... The new guys kinda have an advantage, with us older guys, that have been around awhile, well like you said, we are here more to hang out. More or less to help guide the up comming kids new to it, to the right ways of doing things... wich a great thing that your doing by showing how you get the results you have. I guess I'm just rambling cause I'm board... But, at any rate, I have been around for a while doing the car audio thing, and still, I have learned a few new things, or a least new ways to do things, from a lot of people on here. thanks. And, I hope to meet a few of yall, some day soon.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

jhmeg2 said:


> I know what you mean about compeeting being secondary. I too enjoy meeting up with you guys, and hanging out, and listening. I think, even if some people think that thier setup will not compeet with some of the installs here, they may be suprised, I used to get my systems to sound good to me. Now I try to get it to sound good for others.... The new guys kinda have an advantage, with us older guys, that have been around awhile, well like you said, we are here more to hang out. More or less to help guide the up comming kids new to it, to the right ways of doing things... wich a great thing that your doing by showing how you get the results you have. I guess I'm just rambling cause I'm board... But, at any rate, I have been around for a while doing the car audio thing, and still, I have learned a few new things, or a least new ways to do things, from a lot of people on here. thanks. And, I hope to meet a few of yall, some day soon.


Yeah, with the way things are set up now, it seems to be much more geared towards keeping this niche alive and, hopefully, growing. No huge money to be had and therefore no super secret builds, "**** tunes" used when demoing, etc. Most people are open and happy to share what they've done and give demos to anybody who wants to listen. 

You're right about being for anybody too. There are different classes all geared around install levels that coincide nicely with ease/difficulty to implement. This gives lots of newcomers the chance come in and be competitive early, or at least more competitive than they thought they could have been.


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## tintbox (Oct 25, 2008)

Coming out nicely. Congrats on the baby girl.


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## jhmeg2 (Nov 6, 2009)

your right about no money to be had. we spend as much on our sound as we do our vehicle, and what do we get out of it? we get to listen and share. Also right about trying to keep our sport alive. There are bass heads every where, but not many are only about the quality of thier sound. Its even getting harder to get equipment too. When I try to get info, or equipment, the same answer I get from all different shops, is that, "kids come in, and just want 2 12"s and an amp. They just want the mirror to shake, and the trunk to rattle. Theres just not a nitch for it anymore/around here."...

we need to bring it back, by doing just what you said, demoing, and even mentoring, and not giving, "**** setting demos".

To bad We live so far apart, we could get super hero outfits, and save the SQ world. ok JK.

Although you say,"There are different classes all geared around install levels that coincide nicely with ease/difficulty to implement", I think my installs are pretty simple, but get pushed up a class all the time.


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## jhmeg2 (Nov 6, 2009)

ok, so sorry, we kind of got off your build, looks great, wish I could help. I'm board.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

jhmeg2 said:


> ok, so sorry, we kind of got off your build, looks great, wish I could help. I'm board.


No problem man. I was having a hard time humbly accepting the compliments you bestowed upon me. I will tell you that I'm happy to share what I've done, and how I do it. I like working on builds like this because, for me, it's part of the fun. I make sure I do the best I can, since once the fun of the build is over, what I'm left with is enjoying the system I created. So I better do it right or all the work has little payoff in the end. I will also help those who need it when I can and when I feel they want to learn...not just get a handout. If you search, "teach a man to fish", I bet my screen name falls beside most of those posts. 

That being said, there are real "heros" out there that spread the word of "SQ" much better than I. 

Erin (bikinpunk) for example, spends tons of his free time testing drivers and sharing data, he hosts GTG's and encourages people to bring friends who are "on the fence" with them to experience things and help this hobby grow, and I have never seen him be anything other than open and helpful at competitions. In fact, the first show I went to in Murfreesboro, he and Mike Bayler, rest in peace sir, where the only two people who sat with me in their cars and talked about what I was/should be hearing. Other people were friendly and happy to give a demo...but they took some time with me and it really meant a lot. 

Erin is not the only one, mind you, and I'm sure he would be hesitant to accept this praise. However, I consider him a friend and now have the opportunity to "call him out". I see what he does to help other people, and know how willing he was to spend time with me before we were friends, and I know that is the type of person/people who will ultimately bring this hobby back to what it was...a place where "car stereo" *isn't* synonymous with "loud subs" or "rattling trunks".

Beyond that, I feel I'm on a slippery slope. I don't want to turn this into a "who to thank" post, and there have been TONS of people who deserve thanks for helping me along the way, because I don't want to leave anybody out and end up with feelings hurt. I also don't want to sound like I think I'm anything larger than another hobbiest with a passion for good audio...because I'm not. Hopefully, all of those people who helped me know who they are, and hopefully they understand that the more each one of us can "pay it forward", the better our hobby is as a whole.


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## jhmeg2 (Nov 6, 2009)

pionkej said:


> No problem man. I was having a hard time humbly accepting the compliments you bestowed upon me. I will tell you that I'm happy to share what I've done, and how I do it. I like working on builds like this because, for me, it's part of the fun. I make sure I do the best I can, since once the fun of the build is over, what I'm left with is enjoying the system I created. So I better do it right or all the work has little payoff in the end. I will also help those who need it when I can and when I feel they want to learn...not just get a handout. If you search, "teach a man to fish", I bet my screen name falls beside most of those posts.
> 
> That being said, there are real "heros" out there that spread the word of "SQ" much better than I.
> 
> ...



WERD


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## funkalicious (Oct 8, 2007)

Congrats on the new addition to the family. From my experience as far as getting wrapped around her finger, please repeat after me: "Resistance is futile!"


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Finally, a small, but important update! I have wrapped the sub enclosures and added a layer of chopped mat to the inside. There area few bubbles, but I'm not too concerned since the inside layer is mainly for extra bonding to the mdf top and bottom. I have Kyntex to add strength from the outside of the box and will make sure I use a roller to push out any bubbles there. I do have a question though, in the picture below, you can see where I trimmed the wrapped cloth and removed staples from the mdf. I want to make sure that cloth is bonded to the mdf and was looking for suggestion on the best way to do that. Should I just brush it with resin (which I think would be a bit brittle), or run a bead of liquid nails or somthing along the seam (which I think would be better)? Just looking for advice.

BTW, the update is important because I have just over a week to get this done and installed before Freezefest! 

The top picture shows how the boxes will sit around the spare tire below the hatch floor.


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

Looking good, get it finished, I'm still hoping to be there but will not be competing since one of my amps has not arrived from Overseas.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

pionkej said:


> Finally, a small, but important update! I have wrapped the sub enclosures and added a layer of chopped mat to the inside. There area few bubbles, but I'm not too concerned since the inside layer is mainly for extra bonding to the mdf top and bottom. I have Kyntex to add strength from the outside of the box and will make sure I use a roller to push out any bubbles there. I do have a question though, in the picture below, you can see where I trimmed the wrapped cloth and removed staples from the mdf. I want to make sure that cloth is bonded to the mdf and was looking for suggestion on the best way to do that. Should I just brush it with resin (which I think would be a bit brittle), or run a bead of liquid nails or somthing along the seam (which I think would be better)? Just looking for advice.
> 
> BTW, the update is important because I have just over a week to get this done and installed before Freezefest!
> 
> The top picture shows how the boxes will sit around the spare tire below the hatch floor.




Id just resin it, then use some filler after it gets sanded down some.
then make sure you have material on the inside egde where the seams are.
Milkshake or slosh resin around inside. use some chopped mat or cloth to go along the edges.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

DAT said:


> Looking good, get it finished, I'm still hoping to be there but will not be competing since one of my amps has not arrived from Overseas.


Sucks you won't have an amp, but it will be nice to put a face with the "name". I plan on having it done by the weekend, since I still have to build a new floor for the entire hatch area too! 



Mic10is said:


> Id just resin it, then use some filler after it gets sanded down some.
> then make sure you have material on the inside egde where the seams are.
> Milkshake or slosh resin around inside. use some chopped mat or cloth to go along the edges.


Yeah, I thought about it after you posted and I need to resin the mdf to seal it anyway, so I'll just hit the whole thing with a light coat. I also used chopped mat on the inside edges to help the bond, but your right again about the milkshake...it can't hurt. I'd hate to go through all the trouble of building these things only to have a side blow out on me or something.

Thanks for the advice.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

DAT said:


> Looking good, get it finished, I'm still hoping to be there but will not be competing since one of my amps has not arrived from Overseas.


Do you not have something you can use temporarily? Like a massive amp or something? You're a dealer... You've got to have somethin! Somewhere?!

We all need to have a meeting spot to ... Meet up.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Do you not have something you can use temporarily? Like a massive amp or something? You're a dealer... You've got to have somethin! Somewhere?!
> 
> We all need to have a meeting spot to ... Meet up.


I say we meet by the awning.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Got jokes!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Got jokes!


Good point. I'll be the one under the awning telling jokes! 

I'm seriously pumped about Freeze Fest. I think my car sounds pretty good right now, but not hearing any other "good" cars since Finals leaves me feeling like me reference may be a bit off. I can compare to my home system or headphones, but it's not the same.

Oh, and hanging out with people and putting real faces with online profiles...that too (I actually just started a roll call in the Freeze Fest thread).


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

No pictures, but I got the Kyntex down last night. Tonight I trimmed and sanded it back flush with the top and bottom, put down a layer of resin on the top, and ran milkshake on the insides to make sure everything was sealed up good. Tomorrow I plan to put some resin on the bottom and put a few more pieces of mat on the large flat sections to make sure it doesn't flex. I'm hoping to have everything done by the weekend so I can work on installing it next week.

I'll get pictures tomorrow too, it's just curing in my makeshift "heat box" right now.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

glad to hear the progress!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Pics of said progress. 

Heat box:










Curing inside:










Kyndex applied, mdf sealed, milkshake applied:


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

looking great so far... the thing i hate about fiberglass is that you spend quite a bit of time putting layers down, curing, and trimming, then all you have to show for hours of work is a couple of molds. 

i like the attention to detail... keep it up.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

mattyjman said:


> looking great so far... the thing i hate about fiberglass is that you spend quite a bit of time putting layers down, curing, and trimming, then all you have to show for hours of work is a couple of molds.
> 
> i like the attention to detail... keep it up.


I hear ya man. Its tough to snap progress photos since your hands are covered in resin and it is actively curing while you work. Progress is progress though, even if I'm light on pictures!


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

This build is intimidating! Keep it up, just a few more days left. I can't wait to hear this car. Although I am not so sure how I feel about having to compete against it, lol...

Also, I know I'm late, but congrats on the baby girl. Don't worry about cleaning guns and scary uncles... if my experience holds any weight, just get your daughter into car audio - she'll find a nice guy there.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

millerlyte said:


> This build is intimidating! Keep it up, just a few more days left. I can't wait to hear this car. Although I am not so sure how I feel about having to compete against it, lol...
> 
> Also, I know I'm late, but congrats on the baby girl. Don't worry about cleaning guns and scary uncles... if my experience holds any weight, just get your daughter into car audio - she'll find a nice guy there.


No need to be intimidated. I'm not certain I do great looking work...and great looking work doesn't always equal great sound (look at Erin's pillars ). I appreciate the kind words though, and I'm excited to see what others think this weekend; casual listeners, fellow competitors, and judges alike.

Thank you for the well wishes on the girl as well. Things are starting to move quickly now (even though we're just barely over halfway there). Showers are coming up and I figure to be taking on a larger role around the house as my wife gets closer to the due date. I honestly am lucky I got done what I did over the weekend since I had to paint and room and assemble furniture!


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

you should really quit posting...show is like 6 days away...


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> you should really quit posting...show is like 6 days away...


Mic-

I'm not sure I follow. I've not once said that I'm the person to beat, that my stereo is top-notch, or even that I think I'll do well. I have said that a goal for this build was to try and be competitive in MECA (and a personal goal is to make it to Finals) but I would think that's the goal of anybody who plans to compete for the entire season.

I have also had a few people compliment me by saying I should have a great sounding system and it looks like I might be tough competition. I have deflected those compliments to the best of my ability since I honestly have no idea how good my system is in terms of scoring, either standing by itself or how it will fare against the competition. In fact, the only thing I've really said is that I'm very happy with how it sounds so far TO ME and "so far" is a pretty imperative part since I don't even have subs installed yet.

Please don't take the above as being defensive towards you. I'm just not sure what your comment meant exactly and want to make sure (assuming the worst) nobody thinks I'm being full of myself or ASSuming I'm going to do well this weekend (or any weekend). For MECA, I'm out to socialize with fellow enthusiasts first and foremost. For the build thread, I'm out to share with others what I've personally done to put a stereo in my wife's Murano.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

pionkej said:


> Mic-
> 
> I'm not sure I follow. I've not once said that I'm the person to beat, that my stereo is top-notch, or even that I think I'll do well. I have said that a goal for this build was to try and be competitive in MECA (and a personal goal is to make it to Finals) but I would think that's the goal of anybody who plans to compete for the entire season.
> 
> ...


I simply mean. show is in 6 days....get back to work so you can finish and have time to tweak and tune. hard to work on anything when you're posting on DIYMA
DIYMA is a big reason my progress is slow too


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> I simply mean. show is in 6 days....get back to work so you can finish and have time to tweak and tune. hard to work on anything when you're posting on DIYMA
> DIYMA is a big reason my progress is slow too


I got ya. I suppose my response just shows I'm paranoid people may think I'm presumptive that I'll do well.

Man, I wish it were as simple too. If stupid work and money didn't get in the way, I'd be finishing the car as we speak! Most of my "updates" come from work time. When I'm at home, I'm either getting the car ready or working on "honey-do's" for the baby. I know I'm down to the wire and it's certainly not a place I'd like to be...but there will be subs in the car come Sunday...sleep be damned!


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

pionkej said:


> If stupid work and money didn't get in the way, I'd be finishing the car as we speak!


Me too!

Jay


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> you should really quit posting...show is like 6 days away...


Mic-

I think you jinxed me. I went to check fitment on my enclosures and...they don't. It looks like there is a compound curve that my stretched material can't accommodate. I will have to cut that section out and reglass it from inside the box, inside the car. I don't have time to do that before this weekend, so I'm moving to plan b. Which is:


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

pionkej said:


> Mic-
> 
> I think you jinxed me. I went to check fitment on my enclosures and...they don't. It looks like there is a compound curve that my stretched material can't accommodate. I will have to cut that section out and reglass it from inside the box, inside the car. I don't have time to do that before this weekend, so I'm moving to plan b. Which is:
> 
> [/IMG]


whoops sorry about that. at least you have a plan B

what could have happened as well is your enclosures warped. if you make them cure to quickly and there isnt sufficient bracing or structure, it can warp.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> whoops sorry about that. at least you have a plan B
> 
> what could have happened as well is your enclosures warped. if you make them cure to quickly and there isnt sufficient bracing or structure, it can warp.


Yeah, plan b started with panic and ended with a run to Home Depot last night. I'm lucky I went there late so I could get some good cuts on the panel saw (as accurate as the guy could make them). I then cheated everything by about 1/8" and I'll go back with a flush trim bit tonight to clean it all up.

As far as my enclosures, they didn't warp, I just made a stupid mistake. In trying to maximize volume, I had everything cut very precise leaving about 1/4" to 1/2" gap. When I wrapped the piece, it made a straight line from the top to the bottom. Unfortunately, my wheel well doesn't have this gradual slope, but instead it has a more agressive angle for half the height and then goes straight down from there. I've attached a pictures showing the areas affected. In the diagram at the top, the red is the box and the black is the wheel well. That difference moves my box out by around an inch, won't let it sit flush on the floor, and keeps the spare tire from fitting. The good news is that I don't have to scrap the whole thing, I just don't have time to fix it properly right now.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Found this picture in my album. You can see the angle I'm talking about below:


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

I know hindsight is twenty twenty, but why didn't you start out by making the mold in the car?


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Hey, at least the spot you need to fix is right in the opening and easy to get to.

Jay


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

Dang, I wish you were closer I'd help you out and make that box strong enough for a concrete truck to sit on it.


Keep on pumping , quite a few guys want to see your finished install Sunday !


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

mattyjman said:


> I know hindsight is twenty twenty, but why didn't you start out by making the mold in the car?


Simple answer is that my wife is pregnant and this is her daily driver. I was trying to minimize both down time and fumes from the resin by doing it outside of the car. I had seen people make similar molds on the Murano forums and thought my measurements were good (and they were for the top and bottom panel). I just made the mistake of trying to maximize internal volume a bit too much, beacause if I had pulled back a 1/2" more it would fit right now. Like you said, hindsight is always twenty-twenty.



JayinMI said:


> Hey, at least the spot you need to fix is right in the opening and easy to get to.
> 
> Jay


If there was ever a silver lining, that's it. I can easily reach that area inside the hatch and I can easily make the patch through the sub cutout in the box. It won't be a difficult repair to make, it's just one I don't have time for before this weekend.

Since I mentioned pregnancy and fumes above, I'll be making the repair in the car with epoxy resin. I had read that epoxy will bond to cured polyester resin, but not the other way around. I just confirmed it will work with US Composites. So, again, it won't be fixed before this weekend, but it should be a pretty easy (and fume-free) repair once I get the epoxy resin in hand.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

DAT said:


> Dang, I wish you were closer I'd help you out and make that box strong enough for a concrete truck to sit on it.
> 
> 
> Keep on pumping , quite a few guys want to see your finished install Sunday !


Well, it will be complete on Sunday, but not finished. I mean, I'll have all the components I'll be using installed and functional, but it won't be in it's final form for the show. Here is my remaining "punch list" that will happen sometime before the end of the season:

-Fix and finish below-floor subwoofer boxes
-Make custom RCA cables for amp rack
-Make new false floor and attach amp rack
-Add gas hood struts to false floor to assist lifting
-Re-build front dashmat
-Add aftermarket CD player (waiting on Pioneer DEH-80PRS and Metra dash kit to be released)
-Add "side" fill speakers in doors

You can see that most everything I need to do is geared to asthetics and better iPod functionality, so the sound shouldn't change much. I'm just looking for a cleaner appearance.

I'm flattered people are excited to see the car though. I'm excited to hear few myself, and mostly excited about just getting to hang out, with what looks to be a great turnout, this weekend.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

John, I know this is probably a stretch but if you need the epoxy I have in a pinch you are more than welcome to come get it. Not sure about shipping it and it wouldn't be there until Thursday but you can always pick it up if you need it.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> John, I know this is probably a stretch but if you need the epoxy I have in a pinch you are more than welcome to come get it. Not sure about shipping it and it wouldn't be there until Thursday but you can always pick it up if you need it.


I appreciate it man, but I'm not that worried about it. Gas alone would cost me more than the $20 I already spent on MDF for the temporary box. This solution, though temporary, is actually easier on me for getting everything done before the show anyways. The box will be done tonight aside from wrapping it (and I may get that done tonight too). I don't want to be working till the 25th hour like I always do (installed midbass in your driveway at your GTG, installed MS8 in the Maxima and showing up late to hang out at Finals), so I'll just grab it from you this weekend.

Sending you a PM btw.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

It's ready to get wrapped in carpet tomorrow and put in the car. Finally...B-BB--BBB---BASS! 

I set it up so I can try the box both up and downfiring.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

nice Box


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## Salami (Oct 10, 2007)

Dats gonna make mad base yo!!!!!


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

Yep, that's a box alright. Sure has a lot of air in it


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Box is in the car and playing as of 11:30 last night. I've got a resonance issue coming from the DVD monitor of all places, but I've got an idea to fix that. I may also have an issue in the hatch area from the box downfiring, but I'll have to fix the monitor first to know for sure. 

I have enough RCA cables to try the "kaigoss method" and run the pods active, so I'm going to try it just to see. All in all I'm happy and ready for Sunday.


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## tintbox (Oct 25, 2008)

Nice. Job well done. See ya this weekend.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

Congrats on finally getting it done. Cannot wait to hear this beast!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

ditto.

looking forward to hearing the surround setup. always wanted to hear one that was actually finished and ready to be heard. most of the time everyone is still in experiment phase.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I'm glad it's done too, but it's far from being a beast. I would argue it sounds worse after adding the subs, so I'm a bit bummed there. I have some ideas though, but I have to fix the monitor resonance too. 

The good news is I've got two evenings to fix it. The bad news is...I've only got two evenings to fix it.


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## bmiller1 (Mar 7, 2010)

pionkej said:


> I'm glad it's done too, but it's far from being a beast. I would argue it sounds worse after adding the subs, so I'm a bit bummed there. I have some ideas though, but I have to fix the monitor resonance too.
> 
> The good news is I've got two evenings to fix it. The bad news is...I've only got two evenings to fix it.


:laugh: Bittersweet. Well, no matter if it's up to your standards by Sunday, you can tell a lot of care and work went into your install. Beautiful work.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Got rid of my resonance issue and all it cost me was a hole in my headliner. Seriously, I had to pull the DVD monitor to fix the problem. 

The good news is that it fixed it and the monitor didn't function anyways. The bad news is I've added "reupholster headliner" to my to do list. 

I got called in for a midnight concrete pour, so final tuning will happen sometime between waking up tomorrow afternoon and going to bed tomorrow night. Nothing like being down to the wire for my first event...one that's 3x and expected to have a good turnout.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Made it through my first MECA event. I took second behind Erin in MODEX (who was a clear winner there). I'm very pleased with where I placed, but also know that much needs improving. Fortunately, I got some good feedback from the judges and I feel my issues are fixable. 

Things I like:

Dynamics. I'm very happy with how loud it can get and keep its composure. Erin tested the system at 104db (I believe) and HD was over 50db down from the fundamental. 

Midrange presence. Vocals are clear (to the point of being a bit hot at times) and there is tons of "snap". 

The drum track was my favorite to demo for those two reasons. 

Problem areas (and my proposed solutions):

Hiss. My rear fill amp had the gains set too high...easy fix IMHO. 

Lack of low end. Feedback was that I lacked some bass. I was actually happy with this part as everything sounded natural and accurate to me. On my way home, I cut 63 and 80hz on my EQ (I had boosted them a few db's) and then raised the overall sub level. I believe that small change will help me on the next round and I didn't really loose any of the accuracy I had (so I'm good with the changes). 

Boomy midbass. I got this comment from only one judge and I think it was more a function of the bottom end lacking. I think the fix above solved this problem as well. As such, I'm leaving it alone until I get to another event and get some more feedback. 

Wandering center image. Rebecca Pidgeon didn't stay centered in my car. I think this had to do with me running the sides passive at the MS8 and crossed at the amps. I have enough channels to try them active (if I use the Kaigoss workaround for the subs) so we'll see what that does. 

Lack of width (this affected my staging scores too). Back to Spanish Harlem for this one. The shakers were not far right in the track which hurt width (and so everything felt stacked left for staging too). This was solely a function of my rear-fill location. With the MS8, information that is 180 out of phase steers completely to the rear. In phase stays up front. Anything between is split. The shaker has enough out of phase information that it is split. Rear level is high enough that it narrowed the stage. This happened during part of Metallica's "One" too, so it's a legitimate issue. Solution here is to bi-amp the fill and add sides (I have the speakers and available amp channels) and lower the overall fill level. This is the toughest "fix", but I was planning to add it, so it's not really a fix per se anyway. 

That's a summary of the major issues I have. Other things may be there too, but I'm working on these for the next show, will get more feedback, and soldier on.


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## bmiller1 (Mar 7, 2010)

John,

In my less than educated opinion, I think the strengths you mentioned are very apparent (dynamics, mid range, that "snap") in your system. Those aspects make it very defined. I can't say I agree with the boominess of the mid bass but, I wasn't in there too long. I just didn't hear that. I did notice that the sub bass was a little low but, I thought was a product of my personal preference. I keep my bass pretty thick. In fact, I had my sub knocked down quite a bit because I was worried about how prominent I usually keep it and then, I ended up taking some hits for it being too weak. Over paranoid for my first time, I guess. It sounds like you found the remedy for the sub issue though and I'm sure that won't be an problem for you in the future.

Congrats on your score. I'd say that was a pretty good inaugural run for you. Looking forward to hearing it again.

Brad


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

U and Erin both in ModX. Hmmm just might have to make some shows this year


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bmiller1 said:


> John,
> 
> In my less than educated opinion, I think the strengths you mentioned are very apparent (dynamics, mid range, that "snap") in your system. Those aspects make it very defined. I can't say I agree with the boominess of the mid bass but, I wasn't in there too long. I just didn't hear that. I did notice that the sub bass was a little low but, I thought was a product of my personal preference. I keep my bass pretty thick. In fact, I had my sub knocked down quite a bit because I was worried about how prominent I usually keep it and then, I ended up taking some hits for it being too weak. Over paranoid for my first time, I guess. It sounds like you found the remedy for the sub issue though and I'm sure that won't be an problem for you in the future.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the kind words sir. Don't get me wrong, I'm not upset with my build. I knew there would be issues and I was glad to get good feedback. Now I have a "plan of attack" and hope to keep improving as the season goes on.



SSSnake said:


> U and Erin both in ModX. Hmmm just might have to make some shows this year


Well, he was WAAAAY ahead of me on Sunday, but I'm planning to come to the show in Florence (and be better prepared by that point). Might be a good one to come check out.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Here are the system measurements Erin got on TrueRTA:

Frequency Response:










Harmonic Distortion:










Bass Decay:


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Well, this past week or so has been mostly dedicated towards preparing the home for our new addition coming in June, but I did find some time to bust out the RTA. 

All of the plots below were averaged from six points and then smoothed to 1/3 octave.

Original response curve:










So the biggest concerns were the response falling off below 30hz, the null at 80-100hz, the boost at 400-1khz, and the dip at 6-8khz before the rise starting at 10khz (the roll-off above 15khz is the limit of the Whispers and I didn't try and do anything with this).

After some EQ work:










You can see that even with a slight boost, the 80-100hz null didn't go away (and I didn't expect it to). So I simply flipped the polarity of the sub. I did this part the next night, which is important to note because the levels are NOT the same, 100hz+ is at a higher level across the board while 100hz- remains at approximately the same level. This is because my wife adjusted the RLC to her listening preference and I didn't change it since I was just looking to see what flipping phase did to the null.

Differences below:










Now that the null was gone, I adjusted the levels properly and did a bit more EQ work.

Here is the final vs. the original:










There were about 6 more steps in the first and second round of EQ work that I didn't include. I took a measurement, made minor changes, listened, and repeated. I'm happy with both how the response looks and how the car sounds at this point. There is still more work to be done, but I'm planning to leave it like this until after the Murfreesboro MECA comp next weekend. After that, I'm pulling the midbass baffle and making a proper dashmat. While I have it out, I'll be adding some denser foam inside the dash to help with some minor midbass backwave bleed-through that I have notice. I will also be building a new sub box that will, hopefully did a bit lower since I'm getting ZERO cabin gain in the last octave.

That's all for now.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

sweet! that curve is too flat. I bet it sounds like poop. lol!

(I kid, of course)


Oh, ctrl+alt+prntscrn is your friend.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

So it was already pretty good, but how much difference are you noticing during listening?

And Erin, no ctrl needed, just Alt+Print Screen.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*makes mental note!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> sweet! that curve is too flat. I bet it sounds like poop. lol!
> 
> (I kid, of course)
> 
> ...


It has to sound like poo. 

I was waiting for the print screen comment. I hardwired all my Internet ports when I redid my bonus room. No wifi. No Internet access in the garage. So snapping a pic with the ole iPhone was easiest.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

schmiddr2 said:


> So it was already pretty good, but how much difference are you noticing during listening?


On the low end, I was a bit anemic in the lowest octaves and boomy in the 50-63hz range. Lifting the bottom end a bit and fixing the null helped both. 

My vocals were also very forward and some female vocals were harsh. Balancing the 200-1khz range helped with these issues. I also lowered my center level about two clicks which improved things more. I still hear some resonance issues, but it's actually a back wave issue I found when isolating my midbass alone. That's what I plan to tackle with the denser foam in the dash. 

All in all, things just sound more balanced and natural to me. I have to address the back wave issue and I plan to work on the bottom octave a bit more. I love my GTi subs, but I don't think two 10's can just dig low enough in that SUV, so I think I'll need to go with something(s) bigger. I don't have time to properly tackle those things before Sunday's show, so I'll see what the changes I have made get me and adjust more before April Fool's Fest.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

For anybody following this thread with an MS8, I had great results turning the rear-levels down by about half post calibration. If you're unsure about it, use these two tracks: Rebecca Pidgeon's "Spanish Harlem" and Brad Paisley's "Water (Live)". 

Rebecca's voice should have an echo to it, but it shouldn't be pronounced. I suggest checking this on your home system or headphones. Keep reducing the fill till it matches. Now listen to "Water". At about five seconds in, the crowd should envelop you. The rear coming in should be obvious (it will disappear if you reduce levels too much), but not overbearing.


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

schmiddr2 said:


> And Erin, no ctrl needed, just Alt+Print Screen.


In any version of Windows it's just Print Screen, CTRL+V into a new image in Paint/your favorite image creation program.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Well those older GTi subs didn't come packing a ton of excursion which is typical of pro audio based subs from back in the day. But I bet on most music it sounds really really good.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> Well those older GTi subs didn't come packing a ton of excursion which is typical of pro audio based subs from back in the day. But I bet on most music it sounds really really good.


They really do sound great, and if I had a bit more cabin gain down low I'd stay with them. I knew this might be an issue in a larger vehicle too. Since I have an RTA, I tried the box downfiring (like I originally had them), I lifted the downfiring alignment 1.5" then 3" on the hatch side for more of a horn-loaded setup, up firing, forward firing, and rear firing. Aimed at the hatch (rear firing) gave me the 3db gains you see, but it just isn't enough IMHO in this SUV. I could probably get a bit more out of them by increasing levels and cutting 50-80hz, but I can't bring myself to risk these wonderful subs for a few DB's. I'm looking at some 12's (probably the Dayton HF's) and if I go that route I'll put these up for sale. I can't justify tucking them away with no planned future use. I'd rather somebody with a smaller car get all the pros and none of the cons.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I lied. I'm doing a bit more work on the Murano before this weekends show. Nothing audio related...but something that was affected by installing audio. 

I'm talking about the center AC stack I customized to fit my center midbass. Up until now the side vents that were affected were just placed in the car for asthetics and the duct work was tucked inside the dash. It wasn't a big deal in colder weather since the automatic climate control routes warm air toward the feet first. Now with 80 degree days in the forcast, I decided it was time to get everything working properly.

Progress so far:

Mocked up and ready for glass:










After glassing:










Removed from the ducts for trimming (which was a PITA because I forgot to wax the tape in my haste to get this done):










They are currently painted and drying. I'll hopefully have an update later today with them back on the vents and ready to install!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Paint dried faster than I expected, so here they are finished and ready to install. If you're wondering why I went with blue, it's because I'm doing the finish work at my work, and blue paint is what we've got here.

Cut and painted:










Installed onto the ducts:


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

It's been a while since my last update, and since it looks like that weird formatting issue is fixed, I have some pictures to share. 

Some of my original requirements, from my wife, were that I couldn't ditch the spare tire or sacrifice any cargo space in the boot. Because of this, I had built an amp rack that sat above the spare tire and sub enclosures that would flank the spare, flush with the floor. Right before Freezefest, I realized that my sub enclosures would not fit, and not having time to fix them, I built a temporary box. That box showed me that two 10's, in an SUV, did not dig deep enough for good FR. The crux, I couldn't fit anything larger than 10's in the "flanking" boxes. So I went to the drawing board and came up with a solution. I would build a permanant box in the same spot as the "temporary" box, but would incorporate a parcel shelf so the boot still had usable storage space. Since I didn't need the sides of the spare tire for boxes anymore, I'd also move the amps to the side for easier access to the spare. So.......with all of that out of the way, here are the pictures:


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

The amp rack is not finished yet, but this is the progress on the new false floor and amp rack. When everything is finished, the rack boards will be carpeted, the underside of the "hatch" door will be carpeted, a third 600/4 will be added, and the space between the fuse box and JL amps will be filled. 

Old setup mid transition:










And on to the new:





































I did all of this between Friday night (3-30) and the MECA show on Sunday morning (4-1). As such, I've got a bit of a rat's nest to clean up when I get back to working on the amp rack.


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## slade1274 (Mar 25, 2008)

strange place for the ipod integration.....


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

slade1274 said:


> strange place for the ipod integration.....


All that and THAT'S what you get out of it??? 

In all honesty, I'm ready for that to move...and it should by next week. Ipod integration is currently off the OEM Sat receiver. If you search by artist, there is no sub-category. I learned this early when I wanted to hear For Whom the Bell Tolls and had to skip through 77 other Metallica songs to get to it. 

The good news is that Metra FINALLY released a Turbo II kit for the Murano. I got mine yesterday from a place locally (had them order it for me last Friday on the day it was released). I also go my Pioneer AVH-8400 in yesterday too. Unfortunately, since Crutchfield didn't recognize the Murano as having an aftermarket kit available, they didn't send me the Nissan harness or antenna adapter. So it went out yesterday with no questions asked after a quick call to Customer Service (THIS is where Crutchfield shines), and as soon as it arrives, it's going in the Mo. Then the ipod will then be up front, probably in the console.


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

Looking good, I better step up my game if I have to compete against you.

Like the silver insert around the speakers


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

DAT said:


> Looking good, I better step up my game if I have to compete against you.
> 
> Like the silver insert around the speakers


Don't worry about stepping up your game...ya gotta just make it to a show first.


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

pionkej said:


> Don't worry about stepping up your game...ya gotta just make it to a show first.


You know your the second person to say that. LOL 

I will be finishing the amp rack next weekend and look forward to meeting you in TN end of April / first of May.

Nothing super special about my truck, it will be a good experience. 

BTW: The first person to say that was a guy in another class in MECA...??? He called me out... say he could kick my a$$ in Modex , not sure why.....but nothing to worry about.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

DAT said:


> BTW: The first person to say that was a guy in another class in MECA...??? He called me out... say he could kick my a$$ in Modex , not sure why.....but nothing to worry about.


Don't have to worry about that with me. I presume nothing except that my car will produce sound and I'll get a score at the end of the day.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

Did you really just call the trunk a boot? Would you also like some tea and crumpets with that? :laugh:

Outstanding fab work John! The sub wall looks wonderful. I look forward to competing against you again sometime soon.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

millerlyte said:


> Did you really just call the trunk a boot? Would you also like some tea and crumpets with that? :laugh:
> 
> Outstanding fab work John! The sub wall looks wonderful. I look forward to competing against you again sometime soon.


I did. Believe it or not, I couldn't think of the word hatch earlier. It isn't really a trunk, and cargo area just seemed pretentious...so I went with boot. 

I appreciate the compliments, I'm happy with how it has turned out so far too. Are you guys planning to make the trip down to Florence, AL in May for the show Steve Cook is hosting?


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

On a side note, here is my dash adapter kit and head unit awaiting the install kit from Crutchfield:


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

pionkej said:


> you guys planning to make the trip down to Florence, AL in May for the show Steve Cook is hosting?


Dang skippy. 1 hour from my home. I plan on beng there. 

Missed your call earlier. Was dealing with a baby with a 103 temp. Sucks! (your time is coming)
how you liking the headunit?
Aesthetically speaking, since you haven't fired it up yet. 





Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Missed your call earlier. Was dealing with a baby with a 103 temp. Sucks! (your time is coming)
> how you liking the headunit?
> Aesthetically speaking, since you haven't fired it up yet.


Yeah, we're still getting the room prepped. Actually working on it right now. Made the template last night and tracing it back on the wall. It looks a bit spooky at the moment, but that will change once the cherry blossoms are added. 










For the head unit, I love the way it looks. It sits nearly flush (slightly underflush) and looks very clean. I can't wait to get it wired in and fired up.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Sweet. Looking forward to finished pics. Of both. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Time for a weekly update. It seems changes are brewing for the Murano. Spring cleaning of out with the old...and in with the new (or in with the new and out with the old if you're following the picture ).


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

NICE. Change is good


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

Wow, John, that kit and HU look great. Know you've been anxious to get that thing installed an fired up. Can't wait to hear it.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Where is a huge LIKE button when you need one?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

pionkej said:


> Time for a weekly update. It seems changes are brewing for the Murano. Spring cleaning of out with the old...and in with the new (or in with the new and out with the old if you're following the picture ).


So yo Finally gave up?


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> So yo Finally gave up?


I think giving up is a bit unfair, let's call it "moving on". I really loved the sound of the MS8 using a center and rears, but it wasn't accurate. It got MUCH better after pulling the center, rears, and L7, but then I wasn't using it to its potential and basically ended up with an Auto-EQ/TA with very limited control. 

I also think I need to run my midrange array 1.5-way from 4.5khz and up and with the MS8 I can't overlap crossover points. 

But here's another teaser. Just down to the wiring. 

Old:










Paste:


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Don't feel bad. A lot of us "moved on"

Looking forward to your thoughts on the new processor


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

You keeping the sticker on there John?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

pionkej said:


> I think giving up is a bit unfair, let's call it "moving on". I really loved the sound of the MS8 using a center and rears, but it wasn't accurate. It got MUCH better after pulling the center, rears, and L7, but then I wasn't using it to its potential and basically ended up with an Auto-EQ/TA with very limited control.
> 
> I also think I need to run my midrange array 1.5-way from 4.5khz and up and with the MS8 I can't overlap crossover points.
> 
> ...



all I know was after FF you were GOING to make it work, despite what everyone else told you--you were going to be the one, like many others before you, who was going to make it work

Enjoy your new system and being able to actually tune now, instead of having a seizure w headphones on to get one thing to work right


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> all I know was after FF you were GOING to make it work, despite what everyone else told you--you were going to be the one, like many others before you, who was going to make it work
> 
> Enjoy your new system and being able to actually tune now, instead of having a seizure w headphones on to get one thing to work right


I'll "man up" and concede that. I thought I had figured out what was causing the issues at FF and planned to fix them. Unfortunately, it wasn't completely an issue with the rear-fill or center levels like I thought, BUT things did get better when I attenuated them. Unfortunately, they got even better when I removed them from the mix completely. At that point, I was left with an auto-tune DSP with limited user-adjustability and features that I wasn't using (5.1/7.1 abilities), so I decided to get more control back by going in another direction. 

In short, you were right. I needed more control than the MS8 gives. Does everybody...I don't know. I don't want my response to seem like I can't admit I was wrong, I can/did, I just don't feel comfortable saying the MS8 flat-out isn't good for anybody in any situation. I think the MS8 does a great job with 5.1/7.1 (which is why mine is moving from my Murano to my Maxima), but in doing so it sacrifices "accuracy", and I don't want my opinion of what it couldn't do _in competition_ to dissaude people from buying/trying/enjoying it. I hope that makes sense.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

On the installation side of things. I'm literally 30 minutes from having this hooked up an playing again. It has taken a long time because I had to pull the interior to run wires to the back since I added an aftermarket head unit and everything was previously piggy-backed off the OEM amp wires to the MS8. That and a VERY busy weekend slowed progress down.

I'm literally down to soldering the remote turn-on wires to the lead from the head unit and hooking up the RCA's. Everything beyond that is tuning. 

And Ally...I removed the sticker.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

I agree. MS8 is great piece for its intended audience. I liked what it did tonality wise on many levels.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Another old vs new teaser pic. 



















That's all for now.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

pionkej said:


> Another old vs new teaser pic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome, looks great!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Neil_J said:


> Awesome, looks great!


Thanks. The dash mat is much better this time. No waves, sprayed with SEM 'Landau Black' so it won't turn purple, and is a 1/4" thick instead of 1/8". Putting the speakers on the top side also got them 1-1/4" closer to the dash, pushing comb-filtering higher up too...hopefully. 

I'll be adding tweeter pods and slapping it back in the dash. Trying to get it done before I go to bed tomorrow.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Well, didn't get the dash done, but the pods are coming along nicely I think. 

EDIT: Decided I didn't like the "dog hair look" so that's been removed from the final version.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

nice, i love flocking!!


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

flock for the win!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Small update. I got the car wrapped up late last week before the MECA show in Florence. There were five people there who had heard/judged the Mo before, with the MS8, and they all agreed there was a large improvement in the sound. 

I was very pleased by this since it had been a while since I had manually tuned a system and did so in a 4+ hour "marathon" on Saturday (which usually leads to making changes to things that should have been left alone). Needless to say, I felt I left a good bit on the table, so I was happy when the outcome was still John>MS8. 

Here is a pic of the passenger side as it sits now:










With our baby due in a month, I probably won't make another show till the Vinny. This gives me some time to play with some potential changes and tune in a sane fashion. 

First on the agenda is to decide what tweeters I want to use. I have LPG 26's in there now, but I've also got the Alpine SPX-Pro's and the JBL 660's on the way. I also plan to play with arrays a bit more and possibly see if improvements can be made by running them actively.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Did you buy those tweeter pods, or turn them on a lathe or something? They look great!

Jay


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

JayinMI said:


> Did you buy those tweeter pods, or turn them on a lathe or something? They look great!
> 
> Jay


Thank you. I got the wood balls from a local craft store (Hobby Lobby) for a couple bucks. I sanded them till the flat side matched the outer diameter of the tweeter. I then locked them in a small vice with the flat side up and used a forsner bit in a drill press to make the hole. I then rotated the ball and used a smaller bit to make a hole for the stand (and for the wire to pass through). 

For the stand, I used a "threaded nipple" (from lamp section at Lowes) and hollow aluminum tubing. I slowly turned the threaded rod in the wood to create threads, backed it out, applied wood glue, and screwed it back in. Once it set, I used flocking for texture. Once that was done, I cut the aluminum to the height I wanted and "brushed" it on a wire wheel. Slid it over the threaded pipe and installed it. 

Also, I used washer on the top and bottom side of the baffle I attached it to. This allows me to rotate it if needed for aiming, but it's locked down tight enough that it won't move on its own.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Minor update....I'm a dad!!! 

She came three weeks early and is tiny (3lbs-10oz), but she is beautiful and is doing great. Great color, great lung function, and her blood sugar levels are going up. I can't wait to wrap her in my arms and take her home. She has to tip 4lbs before that can happy, so for once cheer on rapid weight gain!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Congrats, dude!


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## bkjay (Jul 7, 2009)

Good for you man! Makes me cry. I hope too be a daddy some day.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

Done!! Congrats!! much more important than any buildlog.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Congrats. My wife had a primi. A little stressful but I guys will be fine


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## Sinfoni_USA (Mar 9, 2005)

Congrats !!!
My twins were early also, just means they need a little extra love...


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## m0sdef (Nov 16, 2010)

Congrats! She's adorable!


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

Congrats on the baby Girl.


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

Wow, John that is great! Hope her and her mom are doing well.


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## dales (Dec 16, 2010)

awesome work.


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## bmiller1 (Mar 7, 2010)

Congrats John!! Nothing better than being a dad. I swung through here to check up on the build log and, in my opinion, you are doing some really innovative things. Keep it up. (though substantially less now with a beautiful girl soaking up your time.)


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Next phase of the install...trying to figure out how to get a car seat to fit properly when suffering from sleep deprivation

Congrats dude.


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## bmiller1 (Mar 7, 2010)

Peace with a girl, sir:


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

That is awesome.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Thanks for the kind words guys. Too many responses to even begin quoting. I will say I believe it's my finest work yet. 

Mom is doing great (has stood up and walked around some) and I just checked on the baby after her third feeding. She is still progressing well too and glucose levels are staying high (this keeps her off an IV). 

I'll lay off the "play by plays" for a bit, but I'll say that everybody has been right on how you are never truly prepared until your little one gets here. I thought I was....I was wrong. The good news is that while I wasn't prepared to the crazy schedule, not being prepared for the joy I feel every time I see her outshines everything else!

That's it for now. Taking a two-hour nap until the next feeding alarm goes off. 

Oh, and I will have a few more car related updates in the near future. First, a couple things I want to try up front. And while the car seat is all ready to go, Mic, there IS a revising of subs that must be done...all because modern strollers are freaking huge! Hopefully we can fit all the baby gear and still feel the foot tap in Grandma's Hands.


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## USDMBB (Sep 3, 2011)

Congrats on the daughter!! My twins where early as well!! 16 Now!!
I just read the whole thread LOL. Just got to this page
. Keep up the good work.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Great news! Hope the hospital takes perfect care of her and you get her home soon.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

pionkej said:


> Minor update....I'm a dad!!!
> 
> She came three weeks early and is tiny (3lbs-10oz), but she is beautiful and is doing great. Great color, great lung function, and her blood sugar levels are going up. I can't wait to wrap her in my arms and take her home. She has to tip 4lbs before that can happy, so for once cheer on rapid weight gain!


Wow!

Sonograms show my son is almost 4lbs and he's still got two months to go.

Congrats and maybe we can lean on each other during the tough times.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

I just clicked on here to show the GF what we could do with her Murano to freak her out and saw the baby. It kind of makes you forget about the car audio. I was a preemie and I turned out fine.... well maybe I'm not the best endorsement but congrats! I can only image how great that must be.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

pionkej said:


> Thanks for the kind words guys. Too many responses to even begin quoting. I will say I believe it's my finest work yet.
> 
> Mom is doing great (has stood up and walked around some) and I just checked on the baby after her third feeding. She is still progressing well too and glucose levels are staying high (this keeps her off an IV).
> 
> ...



A stroller is the reason I went from 2 IDW15s in IB behind the backseat to 4 10s in the rear deck.


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## dales (Dec 16, 2010)

hell i had a rack on top of my car for strollers. to many amps were in the trunk at he time......


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

pionkej said:


> strollers are freaking huge! Hopefully we can fit all the baby gear and still feel the foot tap in Grandma's Hands.


Baby Jogger "City Mini" stroller. 
http://m.albeebaby.com/city-mini-stroller.html

Seriously, this is the best stroller ever. We had two other 'top of the line' brands before this and I have no idea how I lived without it. All others pail in comparison. Takes up a smaller space, collapses and pops up with stupid ease, and turns like a 0 radius mower. Don't think. Buy. I know you have one already. If its not this, sell it and get this one. I'm that serious. 





Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Just a quick update...we have our baby girl home!!! She passed the 4lb. mark on Sunday evening (less than a week) and moved to an open crib on Monday. She maintained her body temp on Monday and Tuesday and so we were able to take her home with us on Wednesday (she weighed 4lbs. 2oz. at discharge). 

So far she has been easy on us "newbs". She cries when she is dirty or hungry and goes to right back to sleep about 90% of the time after her "complaints" are taken care of.

She is is still tiny and was swallowed by the car seat on the ride home:










Chilling in her pack n' play bassinet (even the preemie hats are huge on her ):


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

I missed the update the first time. Congratulations to you and your wife, John. Glad she seems to be doing well despite her tiny size.

I, on the other hand, was a big lard of a baby. :blush:

So when are you going to start working on the car with her?


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

millerlyte said:


> I missed the update the first time. Congratulations to you and your wife, John. Glad she seems to be doing well despite her tiny size.
> 
> I, on the other hand, was a big lard of a baby. :blush:
> 
> So when are you going to start working on the car with her?


The real question is when will I get to start working on the car period...I'm hoping it's some time before the Vinny. 

She and mom are both doing great though and I'm excited to be a dad. Excited enough that I don't mind my primary role being to take temperatures and change diapers...for now at least.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

Do you plan on going to the Vinny? Or did all of that just change?


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

pionkej said:


>


Those look to be good woodworking / fiberglassing hands. 

Congrats man, I'm like Ally I missed it the first time.


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## SQfreak (Feb 13, 2007)

Been following the thread but haven't looked in on it in a while; MAN what an update!! Congrats on a beautiful baby! My Wife is the Charge Nurse for Labor and Delivery night shift and I have heard all about the challenges of premature babies in the first few days/weeks. 

I'm so happy she got to come home, is eating, pooping and gaining weight. woohoo!!


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

wow CONGRATS i haven't been around for a while. i hope she says easy on you guys!!


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## jpeezy (Feb 5, 2012)

She is beautiful,congrats!they change a lot of things,but it is all worth it.


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## SteveH! (Nov 7, 2005)

congrats on the beautiful baby!


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## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

^^

X2!!!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Thanks guys. I haven't made an update in a while. McKenna is doing really great, she just passed the two month mark on the 25th and is over 8lbs. now. As for the Murano, there are some changes in store there too. Don't really have anything completed yet, but I plan to have some updates in the next two weeks or so.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

hey team member!

good luck with the little one! teach her well, i trust.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

*Time to revive!!!!*

I haven't touched this thread in the past year for a reason...I was trying lots of crazy ish and wanted to know what worked for myself before sharing. For now, I'm just going to give a quick rundown of what was changed initially and where I ended the season. I'll post photos of what I have (some of were lost to my iphone on a reset). Then move forward with questions...if anybody has any.

*At the end of last season, I ended with:*
-2x Dayton 12HO subs in 1.5cube sealed box each playing 60hz down
-Dual JBL 660GTi midbass (two in dash and two in door) playing 60hz-1khz
-Aura Whisper "array" on dash pods playing 1khz-4khz or so
-Scan Illuminators crossfiring in pillars from 4khz up

*What didn't work:*
-Subs were hard to integrate
-Midbass overdriven on certain tracks (like 'Sail' thanks to Ally/Millerlyte)
-Midbass in dash narrowed stage and was a VERY visual distraction
-Midrange was nice but hard to control as array was wired in parrallel with no individual driver control (and I was wasting great speaker potential of the 660's by crossing them at 1khz)
-Tweeters were nice but set a hard boundary to width (but worked and was a low priority change)

*Plans to change this year:*
-Build a sub-array (Geddes)
-Make midbass "Ally-proof"
-Get rid of midrange pods and move 660's to pod location (as wide as possible)
-Try center channel again for 2-seat
-Try rear-fill again for stage enhancement
-Get more width from stage, possibly by moving/changing tweeters

*How I started 2013:*
-I added two 10 subs up front (MBQ shallow) and changed rear sub to JL 13tw5, all playing the same frequency range to get rid of modes (Geddes approach)
-I removed the midrange pods and put the 660's in the corner of the dash (now covering 150hz-3khz), followed the rake of the windshield to try and manage reflections, vented them externally, and added a 560GTi mid to the center to help reinforce center for 2-seat)
-Added rear-fill to the c-pillars using a pair of Aura Whispers on each side
-Swapped 6to8 with a pair of H800's "dasiy-chained" for a "primary" 2.1 system with "secondary" 5.1 enhancement (center and fill all played at -10db).

Cutting metal:


Testing location:


Enclosures:


Sitting in car:


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Building the hood:


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

This next part is for building the kicks. This was actually the scariest part for me. Before starting, I found a spare dash locally for $100, so chopping away up there wasn't too bad, but there is no aftermarket carpet...only OEM...at like $700. I was sweating bullets when I made that first cut. After the carpet was cut back I drilled two holes in the floor venting into two different frame rails. I'm going to show pics of the DS only (since it was the harder side dealing with the pedals and steering column), but you'll see at the end this is on both sides of the car.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Sub enclosure was the "flashiest" thing I've ever done. One of the pictures that dissappeared was showing the H800's flanking the bottom amp on the left and right. They were hidden below the board as I didn't want to show what was going on. The spacer above the sub was flush (mounting feet hidden) and was covered with brushed aluminum. The trim around the amps were inset with plexi and LED edgelit.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

This takes us to the midpoint of the season and time to evaluate. First, every change made was a great improvement over where I stood the previous years build. But given time (and shows with judges) to evaluate, I decided some changes were in order. 

First was that the 5.1 needed to go. I was not competing in 2-seat and it was only making getting single seat harder to tune. The rear-fill had the benefit of rasing the stage slightly at the edges (my stage goes from 3" above dash at sides to around 6" above dash at center), but I was going to be keeping an H800 solely for the purpose of running a 3-way front plus rear-fill. So it all was out the door.

Second was that the array wasn't working like I wanted. It did awesome at killing modes and made the bass seamless (so there IS great value there). The problem was in my car, the MBQ's didn't dig very deep (played with authority down to 50hz or so) and sounded like junk up high (didn't do great trying to cross up at 150hz). The JL 13tw5 is another shallow sub in a small box, so while it excelled at 40hz-120hz, it didn't help get that last octave the front subs weren't getting either. So the plan changed to a more traditional sub+midbass setup. The midbass changed to a Scan Discovery 10 which played down low the same as the MBQ but did better mating with the JBL mid. I still needed the last octave down low, so I went back to the Dayton I had last year, but went single, put it in a 4 cube enclosure, and tuned it to 18hz (all flush with the floor)!

Last was that the Scan tweeters cross-firing were cutting it. Moving the mids further out helped with width in the stage, but it wasn't enough. So the plan was to move to the sail panel area.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

The new midbass is wonderful, but was deeper. So I built a wood ring spacer and I moved the brake pedal! I also added a better grill in the process.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Sub enclosure was the next hurdle. The Murano has a good bit of space below the floor, but it isn't flat. So I cut carboard templates to the flattest areas and then cut that out of MDF and then stitched it all together with glass. Please note that a 4" port that's tuned to 18hz is hyuuuuge! It seems I don't have a finished picture, but I'll get one up later.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Last step was the tweeter change. Not much to show here. I sourced a set of tweeter from Alpine Japan called the DLX-F30T. This is part of their DDL line which fell between the Scan built F#1 drivers and the Scan like SPX series. After F#1 went away, this became the highest level Alpine tweeter in Japan. The cool thing for me about it is that it comes with a mounting pedestal (making this change easy with little fabrication). What is cool about it in general is it has dual voice coils! Really interesting design. After listening, I didn't hear a benefit to the offset voice coil design, and it didn't really have better or worse distortion performance than "normal" tweeters (based on my Omni-mic measurements), but it's still pretty cool to me.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Two last things for the general update. 

First is a picture of the system response. The sub has zero smoothing. The midbass (left and right) have zero smoothing. The midrange (left and right) have 1/6 octave smoothing. The tweeters (left and right) have 1/3 octave smoothing.

Second is my daughter. Simply because the last update I had in this thread was for her birth and she's now 18 months old today!


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## RenoAutoSound (Feb 10, 2011)

Subscribed


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Awesome! I wish I could do everything you did for your front stage in my car lol.

The Murano sounded great at finals and I'm sure you'll be able to get it even better.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Thanks guys. There are very few physical changes planned anytime in the future. I'm VERY happy with the setup. I plan to go back to a P99/P01 for a few reasons (mostly non-DSP functions) and I may play with tweeter location a bit more. Right now width is the best it's ever been, but at a slight sacrifice to height at depth at the very corners of the stage. Nothing to complain about, but something possible to pursue. 

The main goal going forward is finding those 1/2db and. 0.02ms adjustments that change a car from really good to nearly flawless.

The next plan for this thread is to document in detail why I run what I do, how I chose passbands, and generally how I tuned this car. It's not a "right way" and certainly not "the best way", but I'll share my way.


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

Awesome job John. I was hoping you would update this thread again. I can't wait to hear it again, hopfully at Erin's GTG.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

'Ally-proofing' your system... surprisingly that's not the first time I've heard that. Am I really so bad? :blush:

Anyways, couldn't have picked a better time to update the build log sir. Been perusing the better builds around here for some inspiration for my new build. Especially those tweeters, I thought they worked out very well for you this past weekend. This was exactly what I was looking for. 

I knew you'd done a lot of changes since I last heard the Murano, but I wasn't prepared for this. Very impressive, very well done John.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Man, you did some of everything on this build. Certainly seems you are not timid about cutting into things. It's not for everyone and you seem to have done a good job with it.

I really like the design for the cargo floor. Reminds my of the radiation symbol.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

millerlyte said:


> 'Ally-proofing' your system... surprisingly that's not the first time I've heard that. Am I really so bad?.


I'm gonna trademark that **** to fund my audio habit then ( I had already thought I invented it).


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Truth is I need to try things before I believe them and I don't start easy. I tried the most complicated way I could think of and then worked myself back to a "simple" 3-way+sub. 

But I tried to make that point in the "location, location, location " thread. The key to 90% Of this is this is knowing your car. Todd, tried a ton of stuff (even degrees of angle changes to the speakers), so did Erin ( he was a gear changing whore until recently), and Cook (rebuilds are almost a weekly thing for him), and Eldridge has been doing this forever. Know your car, adjust for the best sound, and achieve it!


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

coolest update ever!!


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

millerlyte said:


> 'Ally-proofing' your system... surprisingly that's not the first time I've heard that. Am I really so bad? :blush:


I still think you should train to be a judge. You've probably got 3 kHz more hearing range than most of them


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

What size would you estimate the midbass enclosure is?

Looks great.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bassfromspace said:


> What size would you estimate the midbass enclosure is?
> 
> Looks great.


I have a WT3 and before after says it's about 3 cubes. That's mostly in the rails as the enclosure itself is just over a 1/2 cube.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Impressive. Being able to weld helps, lol. The dash-top grill reminds me of MattR's Murano. Came out nice. 

Which song "Sail" did Ally break your system with? (Artist/etc) lol

Your fab skills from the beginning of this thread to now have improved quite a bit. Congrats, sir!

I'll have to go look at the finals results to see how you did, as I haven't really checked them out yet.

Nice work!

BTW, Wow, but your daughter has grown a lot since the last update. You must be thrilled.

Jay


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

The welding was actually done by my pops and is the only thing I didn't do myself. I'm capable of making two pieces of metal stick together, but when it comes to my brake pedal or an expensive sheet of expanded steel, I let the guy with 30 years on me take the helm. 

I appreciate the the complements on the build skills. My work doesn't touch what pros can do, but it's amazing how much repetition helps. What used to take me a weekend can now be done in a few hours with a better finished product. 

Oh, and Ally played AWOLNATION-Sail in my car to make it cry. I had my 660's (6.5") crossed at 60hz last year. Now I have my Scan Discovery (10") crossed at 60hz. Ally-proof.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

Neil_J said:


> I still think you should train to be a judge. You've probably got 3 kHz more hearing range than most of them


I don't think that would be worth requiring everyone to bring a booster seat to shows if I were a judge. 



pionkej said:


> The welding was actually done by my pops and is the only thing I didn't do myself. I'm capable of making two pieces of metal stick together, but when it comes to my brake pedal or an expensive sheet of expanded steel, I let the guy with 30 years on me take the helm.
> 
> I appreciate the the complements on the build skills. My work doesn't touch what pros can do, but it's amazing how much repetition helps. What used to take me a weekend can now be done in a few hours with a better finished product.
> 
> Oh, and Ally played AWOLNATION-Sail in my car to make it cry. I had my 660's (6.5") crossed at 60hz last year. Now I have my Scan Discovery (10") crossed at 60hz. Ally-proof.


Come to think of it I believe I almost broke Andy's subs too once. :blush: 

I keep telling myself "repetition helps" whenever I try and fail at something. I don't think I've had nearly enough repetition yet from the looks of it though. But if your build is any indication, I'll get there someday. 

Looking forward to more updates John.


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## edouble101 (Dec 9, 2010)

I think you lost your mind on this build 

It looks nuts man, there are no obstacles for you that you will not overcome. Wicked!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

millerlyte said:


> I
> Come to think of it I believe I almost broke Andy's subs too once. :blush:


how in the world you haven't blown your own sub bewilders me.

like John, I built my latest version with you and demo-proofing in mind. you should feel special that some of us are building cars for you to demo. LOL.


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

That settles it for me...if I ever finish mine Ally's not allowed to demo it.


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

millerlyte said:


> I don't think that would be worth requiring everyone to bring a booster seat to shows if I were a judge.


That won't be a problem. We're used to it from when Mic judges. Yeah, I went there. 



Sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

bigbubba said:


> That settles it for me...if I ever finish mine Ally's not allowed to demo it.


It's really no worse than when Vinny judges. That dude gets LOUD in cars... But only when they can take it. He seemingly likes
To test the limits. He certainly was at finals. My car and others' could be heard from more than 15' away as if we were standing next to it. In all fairness, like I said, he does seem to be cautious... If your car can't do that he doesn't try to make it.


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

You should let Keith Turner judge. If your midbass ain't smoking when he gets out, that means he didn't like it. 

Sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

pionkej said:


> Oh, and Ally played AWOLNATION-Sail in my car to make it cry. I had my 660's (6.5") crossed at 60hz last year. Now I have my Scan Discovery (10") crossed at 60hz. Ally-proof.


I wasn't sure if it was the AWOLNATION one, or if it was some other song...At first I was thinking Sail Away by Enya, but then I realized my mistake and thought I'd ask.

I got to hear Grayson's car a few weeks ago, and was blown away. Maybe I should have come to finals instead of going to Texas. lol

Jay


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

MacLeod said:


> You should let Keith Turner judge. If your midbass ain't smoking when he gets out, that means he didn't like it.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk.


I was gonna mention him too. 

When he judged me Last weekend for INAC he stayed in the car an extra couple minutes JAMMING to Blurred Lines because the deck defaulted to iPod after he ejected the cd and that was the song on the iPod at the time. I heard him from 30 ft away. I kid you not. Actually made me happy... It meant he was having some fun. 

Back on topic... Johns car is awesome!!!!


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> how in the world you haven't blown your own sub bewilders me.


Contrary to popular belief, Ally doesn't listen to music loud. At least in her own car. She'll crank it in other cars, but hers never sees above 2/3 volume. She also thinks laptop speakers are too loud, and racking the action on a handgun hurts her ears.

Not joking at all.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

MacLeod said:


> That won't be a problem. We're used to it from when Mic judges. Yeah, I went there.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk.


not an issue for you ,unless you start doing IASCA


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

Doubt I ever will. My install is too crappy to ever do IASCA. Maybe one day when I win the lottery and can drop it off at Steve's shop for a month. LOL 

Sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

MacLeod said:


> Doubt I ever will. My install is too crappy to ever do IASCA. Maybe one day when I win the lottery and can drop it off at Steve's shop for a month. LOL
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk.


what does Install quality have to do with IASCA? Have you seen Erin's car? he just got 3rd in his class, which was the biggest class, almost 30 people


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

RIP
John's build log
19 Dec 2011-yesterday


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> I was gonna mention him too.
> 
> When he judged me Last weekend for INAC he stayed in the car an extra couple minutes JAMMING to Blurred Lines because the deck defaulted to iPod after he ejected the cd and that was the song on the iPod at the time. I heard him from 30 ft away. I kid you not. Actually made me happy... It meant he was having some fun.
> 
> Back on topic... Johns car is awesome!!!!


The 535? Mine doesn't do that. Weird.


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

John,
Do you have any pics of the sub enclosure and amp rack after you rebuilt it? I saw the in process pics but not any final results.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bigbubba said:


> John,
> Do you have any pics of the sub enclosure and amp rack after you rebuilt it? I saw the in process pics but not any final results.


I thought I did but it looks like I was wrong. I don't have any of the finished dash with the new tweeters either. I plan to take a picture of both, but it's been dark by the time I got off work the last few days. I will get something up pretty soon though to show both finished products.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Ok, so I'm going to try and kick off the information about my tune and my tuning process. Going into this, I cannot stress enough again that this isn't the only way to tune, the correct way to tune, or the way you should tune. This is how *I* tune. I would also like to stress that none of this is a "given" and many of the decisions I make are based on learning what does and doesn't work well in my car (and I will try to note those areas accordingly).

So first I'll list I few principles I try and adhere to when planning a system:

-I want to use linkwitz-riley 24db ACOUSTIC slopes (called LR4 going forward) as the initial target and adjust, if needed, from there. The reason for this is because LR4 sums flat on-axis and is in phase at the crossover and also drops response off more quickly (which helps prevent over-excursion or cone-breakup and limits phase interactions beyond the crossover region). Acoustic is emphasized because I look at the natural response of the speaker and the room and then use the appropriate crossover to hit a combined curve that is LR4 (a visual will help more with this later).

-I want a driver with a low Qtc (enclosure Q), around 0.5 to 0.707, and low inductance as they are the dominant factors in transient response. There is a ton of information on this, so I will not go too deep (I highly recommend reading on information from Werewolf here). The short is that these two factors control a speakers NATURAL transient response. Another factor that controls transient response is a CROSSOVER (which is why they also have a Q designation). There are formulas that help determine the -3db point for a speaker on both the high and low end, and if you cross 2x above or below that point, the crossover is the only Q effecting the speaker. However, the only time this happens with any regularity is with the tweeter (which is why they can have a Qtc of like 1.5 and FS of 1000hz and when you cross at 2khz it's a non-issue) and everything else is some sort of cascading of the crossover and the drivers parameters.

-I want drivers that are close in sensitivity (I target 90db+/-3db). Logic says that sensitivity is simply an indicator of how loud a speaker plays with a fixed input (2.83v) and once the speakers in the system are level matched properly it won't matter. To me, I feel that if there is a severe mismatch the output between drivers is less linear with volume changes. Note there is ZERO data on this, but since it's fairly easy to achieve and I feel that way, it's one of my priciples. 

-I want the biggest driver I can use for my needs (with several caveats). I think this is the most dangerous statement as things can/do get carried too far with this. First, the driver must be able to cover the intended passband without distortions. A large driver typically helps reduce distortion from excursion but is also more prone to cone breakup and therefore the two must be properly balanced to keep the speaker from "sounding like a speaker". Too large of a driver also can increase the Q if you can't fit it in a large enough enclosure which is a strike against the transient response "rule". Second, it must have good power response in the intended passband. Quite simply, power response is a matching of off-axis to on-axis response. Look at plots from tested speakers here and note that they all begin beaming at some point (and beaming is a narrowing of sound dispersion based on listening axis-think floodlight vs laser pointer). A good rule of thumb is 13,500/speaker diameter (or 2,100hz for a 6.5" speaker). So approximately around 2,000hz, you will see a 6.5" speaker start to exibit directivity traits. If you have a speaker that sounds significantly different on-axis vs off-axis...you're probably playing that speaker well into beaming and have poor polar response. You can "fix" it by changing the angle of the speaker, but that only fixes the problem for that one location. The reflections are different from the direct sound AND you can't move your head without the sound of speaker/system changing. And finally, it needs to fit into the car in a way that is acoustically most advantageous. This part could cover many topics, but tweeters have short wavelengths so we'll use them. In their case, I try and minimize reflections (and those that are unavoidable, I try and keep them as close to the fundamental as possible) and the possiblity for the sound to be blocked. And I do this for all speakers in MY car (and MY car is different from YOUR car...even with the SAME car a slight install difference or seat position difference make them DIFFERENT).

That's it. Those are the constants I try and keep in mind when planning a system. Some of has been proven by others long before me and some of it is good old fashioned preference, but any time I've gone against one of my "rules" I have always regretted the outcome and changed it. Seriously.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

Impressive :thumbsup:


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

I'd like to revive this and congratulate pionkej on the win and SQ best of show today. Thanks for letting us listen. Was very very good and I concur with the results.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Completely agree! This was my first time hearing your car, and it was AWESOME!


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Congrats on your Sq best of show yesterday brotha!! Lots of great cars there, but your setup, well executed, edged the top tier vehicles. I just read thru the build log again, and I am happy to see the experimentation in YOUR vehicle yielded excellent results. It was a pleasure to finally meet you and listen to your ride. It was cool to see how you took that "slouchy" minidsp and made it sound so good! lol


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Thanks guys! I'll be honest and say I didn't expect the car to fare as well as it did. I've been happy enough with the tune to not mess with it since Finals, but I also have a list of things I want to work on in the tune for this season. In short, I was hoping to do well but was not expecting to do as well as I did.

And while getting best of show was nice, the compliments I received from friends (both old and new) meant a lot more to me! I enjoyed every moment at Freezefest yesterday, meeting new people and listening to lots of cars. I'm just happy and flattered that my car was on the list of "good cars" for others at the show too!


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

I thought the Nissan was most excellent. As good as I recall it being at finals. Just wish I would have spent a little more time in it. We never got to really jam to Metallica. It always makes my day when someone is not only unafraid of saying, "as loud as you want," but actually deviates from the typical demo to TURN IT UP AND :rockon:

Finally, 'twas a good convo we had on your build process.


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## rockytophigh (Apr 16, 2008)

Ugh.....now I really wish I asked for a listen. ..


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Indeed, this car is quite nice. Good to see John's efforts paying off. He busted his butt all last year trying all sorts of things and wound up with a great sounding system that doesn't mind getting loud. 

Kudos to you, my friend. Looking forward to tagging back up soon.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

So what was the equipment in the car? Having a hard time following the build log.


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## stereo_luver (Oct 30, 2007)

John I'm sorry I didn't get to have a listen this time. The last time I had a demo it was sounding great and that was too long ago. I'm with Ally on turning the knob clockwise to have a listen as some of us like to do. Too many competitors like to have the volume at judging level or below and we all know we go beyond that point at times to really enjoy our systems. This is why I like to demo my truck with Steve Cook. He doesn't even have to ask. The knob just gets twisted  Before I knew it vehicles were being judged and I don't risk doing a demo during judging since ANYTHING can happen at anytime.

I also missed a demo in Erin's car due to the judging running a little long. I'm not complaining about the timeframe of the judging. It was VERY thorough and precise. That's what paid off in the end. My not getting a demo before judging is my own loss.

Congrats again John and I look forward to getting a demo at the next event we run into each other. Hendersonville? April FoolsFest? I'll be at these along with any IASCA events within a decent driving range.

Chuck


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## audioxincsq (Oct 23, 2009)

The truck sounds great John!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

dupe!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

bring it back. I'm traveling down memory lane a bit here since it's been a good while since I've last listened to John's Murano.
This is one of my favorite build logs and cars to hear. John's like my long-lost brother. And this car is no joke.

What's really cool is to read back through this thread and realize just how on point John's efforts and ideas were. And how he managed to execute it all. Very impressive. I truly believe that with a little more time on the tune this thing can beat anything in competition realm; all the pieces are there in spades. Outside of competition, this thing boogies and would easily be something I'd drive every day of the week...


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> So what was the equipment in the car? Having a hard time following the build log.


I'll try to answer this... and I may be off, so John will have to correct me if I am...


P99 + MiniDSP
(2) 26W/4534G up front for midbass duty (dang!)
JBL GTI 660 for midrange
Alpine DLX-F30T Tweeters (japanese imports)

I think the sub is a Dayton 12"... I think it's an HO. But John's gonna have to cover that.



Edit: Here's the link for his 10" scans up front. They are completely hidden and when you listen to his car there is very little tactile at your feet (I will also add that I've listened to numerous systems with 6.5" drivers in the door that create tactile at my feet, so there's that...)


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

ErinH said:


> I'll try to answer this... and I may be off, so John will have to correct me if I am...
> 
> 
> P99 + MiniDSP
> ...


Trying to draw me out of hiding! You pretty much nailed it on the gear. The Dayton is an HF, which is why I needed a ported box around 3.5 cubes. It covers 40hz and down with the rest being up front. 

I'm using JL Audio's XD amps to power everything.

And thank you for the kind words on the sound of the car. It's funny, but since I take my daughter to daycare 3 mornings a week, and pick her up all 5, most my time is spent "jamming out" to Disney songs. The good news is that they're pretty well recorded!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Indeed. Disney tracks are done very well, for the most part. 

Even the music they use at the theme parks for the ambiance and their shows are great. I have the "wishes" cd (fireworks show) and it has some looooow bass in one track. Pretty cool. I remember listening to it in my car the first time and being like "hold up!" And listening to it a couple more times. Lol. 

spesking of Disney ... You guys need to do a family vacation with us. We can do all the cool rides together and our wives can talk about our silly hobby and our daughters can eat Mickey Mouse ice cream. Lol.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

OH!... and YES, I am trying to draw you out of hiding.  

I'm still waiting on you to come down so we can do some install changes to the Mo'! I've been sitting in my garage since December with my heater and pizzas. Install party!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

ErinH said:


> Indeed. Disney tracks are done very well, for the most part.
> 
> Even the music they use at the theme parks for the ambiance and their shows are great. I have the "wishes" cd (fireworks show) and it has some looooow bass in one track. Pretty cool. I remember listening to it in my car the first time and being like "hold up!" And listening to it a couple more times. Lol.
> 
> spesking of Disney ... You guys need to do a family vacation with us. We can do all the cool rides together and our wives can talk about our silly hobby and our daughters can eat Mickey Mouse ice cream. Lol.


Well, I recently dropped the suggestion of us going on that trip with you guys to my wife. She seemed receptive to it (even though she doesn't like you at all ) but I think she wants to wait one more year with the hopes McKenna will better remember her first trip to Disney.

But back to audio, reading your thread about new speakers and rear-fill is making me want to tinker again. Mostly with tweeter location and rear-fill...and maybe a different processor. The miniDSP seems to have developed a habit of picking up some rpm-based whine (probably alt) that it never had before. I've even kicked around the idea of ditching the sub and moving the amps under the front seats to get my hatch back. The 10's would serve me perfectly for daily use and it would probably at worst cost me a few tenths on the "lows" if I competed again.

See, I'm just typing stuff as I think of it now...


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

pionkej said:


> Well, I recently dropped the suggestion of us going on that trip with you guys to my wife. She seemed receptive to it (even though she doesn't like you at all ) but I think she wants to wait one more year with the hopes McKenna will better remember her first trip to Disney.


I hear you. I was thinking the same but we couldn't hold out any longer... Disney withdrawals. Took Layla when she was 2yrs/2mos. She still remembers stuff like it was yesterday. We are taking her on her 5th trip next month. She may not remember all of these trips when she's 15 but she enjoys the heck out of it right now. But, yea... I can't knock you for wanting to wait until she's older. If nothing else, she'll simply be able to enjoy more rides. We just couldn't wait because we were Disney nuts before Layla. Now we just have an excuse... 




pionkej said:


> But back to audio, reading your thread about new speakers and rear-fill is making me want to tinker again. Mostly with tweeter location and rear-fill...and maybe a different processor. The miniDSP seems to have developed a habit of picking up some rpm-based whine (probably alt) that it never had before. I've even kicked around the idea of ditching the sub and moving the amps under the front seats to get my hatch back. The 10's would serve me perfectly for daily use and it would probably at worst cost me a few tenths on the "lows" if I competed again.
> 
> See, I'm just typing stuff as I think of it now...



TBH, with the subs and competition, I'm certain you'd be fine. Let's face it, most judges aren't listening to the levels we typically listen at. The big ol' subs are for us more than them. Heck, one of my best scores came when I forgot to turn my sub back on and the JL 8's were playing down to 50hz; no sub. :shrugs:

What are you thinking for tweeter install?... just curious. You can always call me. You and I need about a two hour video chat so we can share ideas on paper. lol. I'll bring a dry-erase board to FreezeFest with me.


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

Let me it go, Let it go!!

Can't hold back anymore...

Let it go, Let it go!!!

Turn away and slam the door...


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

NOT that one.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

SouthSyde said:


> Let me it go, Let it go!!
> 
> Can't hold back anymore...
> 
> ...


Wow....you know the words!!!! :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

Pionkej, thanks for posting all of this information about your build. How did you connect the JL Audio XD700/5 to power your speakers? The amp has 5 channels, I'm curious about the topology you used to power tweeter, midrange & midbass speakers. Can you share? Thanks.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

pionkej said:


> Last step was the tweeter change. Not much to show here. I sourced a set of tweeter from Alpine Japan called the DLX-F30T. This is part of their DDL line which fell between the Scan built F#1 drivers and the Scan like SPX series. After F#1 went away, this became the highest level Alpine tweeter in Japan. The cool thing for me about it is that it comes with a mounting pedestal (making this change easy with little fabrication). What is cool about it in general is it has dual voice coils! Really interesting design. After listening, I didn't hear a benefit to the offset voice coil design, and it didn't really have better or worse distortion performance than "normal" tweeters (based on my Omni-mic measurements), but it's still pretty cool to me.


goals


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