# Morel Elate 6, 2- or 3-way?



## buggsson (Mar 13, 2009)

So I tried to choose front system here:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...y-front-system-help-me-un-confuse-choose.html
And I did search.

And now, suddenly I've chosen the Morel kit. The question most on my mind is if I should go 2- or 3-way. I have a VW Passat Variant 2004. I can't touch the instrument panel, I have airbags in the A-pillar, I have no room at my feet, which would leave the door panels for both the mid and mid bass if I go 3-way. Tweeter is in the rear view mirror panel and will stay there. I will post some images later today so you can get a feel for how the interior looks like, and what can be done. The mid will go as close to the rear view mirror panel as possible if I go that way.

Another plan would be to fasten some kind of pod holder in the metal behind the rear view mirror panel for both tweeter and mid (3.5"), but I don't know what it looks like in there as yet.

I would also like to have input in how to mount the 6.5" in the doors. I would like to know the general opinion on what they like the best given their construction and build, not what goes. Is it optimum to have them playing straight into the door or in a closed box? If a closed box, size recommendations? I tried to get some numbers myself but I didn't do that well. 4.25 liters and a Qtc of just below 0.7. I don't even know if this is the way with 6.5" drivers. That size seemed so small.

- My first choice, if doable is to go 3-way because of the larger freedom of choice for the crossing points that I more or less already have decided is the preferred ones, approximately at least. 
- I will go active.
- I will add a sub when the front system is finished.
- Amp. will be chosen when I've decided on 2- or 3-way.
- I listen mostly to metal and heavy rock, but I really listen to most genres more or less, if that is pertinent info?
- Please feel free to put in whatever I've forgotten to mention.
- And yes, this is my first project, but that is not an issue here. This is the way I'm going.


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## braves6117 (Feb 13, 2008)

I would stick with a 2 way...I feel the space between the drivers in a three way will ultimatley hurt your sound reproduction characteristsics if its as complicated as you described.

Mount the woofers in your doors, making sure to have a good strong decoupled speaker ring and a very well sealed baffle. Also add some deadening to the sheet metal panels if you haven't already.

Can you angle the woofers in the doors to be more on axis at all? It would help.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Sent PM


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

2-way, been there, done that. The three way sounds lovely but you can't get it right, really, in that car. The VW passat is basically an A6. You're going to just trade the damn car, man. If not, I'd look for kicks for the midbass and tweets in stock position. The door panels of the A6 have no metal skin so the Elate is mounted to the plastic. BAD!!!!!
Look to kicks before dumping 50 pounds of dynamat on those plastic panels. 

The Elates can take some serious power. I put 170X2 to the tweeters and if my other amp doesn't sell, will be putting 600 to each midbass instead of their current 170X2

Elate tweets are 6 ohm. I'd seriously consider looking into Supremos (piccolo, of course) to avoid paying for the MX-22 corssovers in the Elate et...better yet, check this beauty out:
Morel Supreme SCW636 Carbon Fiber Cone Woofer from Madisound

Oh doesn't that get the juices flowing. You can afford two of these woofers and two of these:
Morel ST 728 Supreme Tweeter, Ø 72mm, 8 ohm from Madisound
which are purdy enough to make you drift of into....anyway, that would be $1k which is just under the Elates. Mind you, I linked the supreme line of Morel home drivers which arrew more like the supremos, if elates were your taste then you'd look towards the Elites and save some money. If you do kick panels, you may want to consider whether or not you'll have or need a grill, otherwise, the morels are a flavor of their own caliber. They're not for everyone but, to me, they are lovely


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

If you can mount the speaker and woofer close together, I would go with the 2-way. If they need to be far apart, I would go with the 3-way and mount the mid with the tweeter like you described. If you do purchase the speakers individually, let me know because I have 3 CDM54's I just pulled out of my car....time to upgrade (thanks wifey)


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## braves6117 (Feb 13, 2008)

AWC said:


> 2-way, been there, done that. The three way sounds lovely but you can't get it right, really, in that car. The VW passat is basically an A6. You're going to just trade the damn car, man. If not, I'd look for kicks for the midbass and tweets in stock position. The door panels of the A6 have no metal skin so the Elate is mounted to the plastic. BAD!!!!!
> Look to kicks before dumping 50 pounds of dynamat on those plastic panels.


HA. My car puts this to shame in terms of sound character being shi~at! If I can get it to work, I bet he can too  All joking aside, I agree 100% with AWC's advice.


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## buggsson (Mar 13, 2009)

braves6117 said:


> Mount the woofers in your doors, making sure to have a good strong decoupled speaker ring and a very well sealed baffle. Also add some deadening to the sheet metal panels if you haven't already.
> 
> Can you angle the woofers in the doors to be more on axis at all? It would help.


Yes, I have deadening on its way.

Yes, I will do "new" door panels, baffle and glass fiber, so I can angle them.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

I have the Elate 3 way set in my car and it has a very nice, refined sound. 

But if you're looking for more of a punchy sound, I'd go 2 way.


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## buggsson (Mar 13, 2009)

AWC said:


> 2-way, been there, done that. The three way sounds lovely but you can't get it right, really, in that car. The VW passat is basically an A6. You're going to just trade the damn car, man. If not, I'd look for kicks for the midbass and tweets in stock position. The door panels of the A6 have no metal skin so the Elate is mounted to the plastic. BAD!!!!!
> Look to kicks before dumping 50 pounds of dynamat on those plastic panels.
> 
> The Elates can take some serious power. I put 170X2 to the tweeters and if my other amp doesn't sell, will be putting 600 to each midbass instead of their current 170X2
> ...


I'll have to stick with this car for now. However, the doors do have an inner metal skin. The original 6.5" are riveted to that metal sheet. I'll still have to open up the doors, but my plan is to totally rebuild the door panels and get them sufficiently stiff. Will I get there, we'll see. Kicks are out as I said, there is no room, automatics are not the rage over here, there is a clutch pedal and my foot needs to rest.

Well thank you for the driver tips, but I've ben offered such a nice price that I will take my chances on the Elates. Most so far seem to favor a 2-way system. I rest my case a while longer, until I can tear down one of the doors to have a look behind the sail panel to ponder on the pod making options. Quite a few are making pods one way or another but most put them in the A-pillar.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

buggsson said:


> I'll have to stick with this car for now. However, the doors do have an inner metal skin. The original 6.5" are riveted to that metal sheet. I'll still have to open up the doors, but my plan is to totally rebuild the door panels and get them sufficiently stiff. Will I get there, we'll see. Kicks are out as I said, there is no room, automatics are not the rage over here, there is a clutch pedal and my foot needs to rest.
> 
> Well thank you for the driver tips, but I've ben offered such a nice price that I will take my chances on the Elates. Most so far seem to favor a 2-way system. I rest my case a while longer, until I can tear down one of the doors to have a look behind the sail panel to ponder on the pod making options. Quite a few are making pods one way or another but most put them in the A-pillar.


I run the elate 2-way. My mids are in the garage and while I enjoyed them, the accuracy is greter without them, to me, just not as rich. If you are getting a good price, it is a great sound. I'm glad you have the metal door skins....and manual tranny, lol. Good luck, I'm sure you'll like them.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

My BMW 325i had doors that had 5 1/4's mounted to the inside plastic door panel. I didn't want to do kicks, and didn't want to cut holes in the metal inner panels (you can see the stock grills at the bottom of the door - there is only a shallow indention in the metal behind the grill). 

My installer did a fiberglass pod in the center of the door, slightly on-axis.I have the tweets in the sails. The two-way worked out pretty well in this set up. 

This of course makes these door panels unusable, most would not want to do this, and my install is not stealth. I do really like the sound of the Morels in this configuration though.


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## buggsson (Mar 13, 2009)

AWC said:


> Good luck, I'm sure you'll like them.


Thanks, and I certainly hope that I will like them. And to be frank, I haven't a clue as to what I would actually be able descern between different speakers.


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## buggsson (Mar 13, 2009)

bertholomey said:


> My installer did a fiberglass pod in the center of the door, slightly on-axis.I have the tweets in the sails. The two-way worked out pretty well in this set up.
> 
> This of course makes these door panels unusable, most would not want to do this, and my install is not stealth. I do really like the sound of the Morels in this configuration though.


I find your install very neat looking. My door panels are crap for installs. There are ridges and electric buttons all over, but somehow I will find a way close to the original spot. I will however get "new" ones at the scrap yard so that I can reinstall the originals if need be.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

buggsson said:


> Thanks, and I certainly hope that I will like them. And to be frank, I haven't a clue as to what I would actually be able descern between different speakers.


You will

Perhaps you should look into an auto-tuning deck, just a thought, its tough to "reference" other systems without a past reference to go on. With a CDA 9887 or Pio 880 with auto-tune, you can get a good taste of what is right. Then you can make the sound you want from there. Its a thought


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## 01_Wolfsburg (Jul 8, 2007)

I did an active two way with Morel mid bases and Vifa tweets...all in the stock location. very good image and stage. sound deadened the doors well, made a gib difference. did n't take long. I also have a 2004 Passat I did the install in. I some pics posted on here some place. Contact me if you want further info.
Bryon


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## buggsson (Mar 13, 2009)

AWC said:


> You will
> 
> Perhaps you should look into an auto-tuning deck, just a thought, its tough to "reference" other systems without a past reference to go on. With a CDA 9887 or Pio 880 with auto-tune, you can get a good taste of what is right. Then you can make the sound you want from there. Its a thought


I would say, a good one as well. However, due to budget constraints I'll have to postpone as many buys that I can at the moment. I know that is perhaps far from optimal in most instances, but to get started at all, thats the way I have to go. I'll take my chanses, but with all the suggestions and tips from this and a swedish car audio forum, a do believe that I will not risk to strive that far off from my road to car audio nirvana.


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## buggsson (Mar 13, 2009)

For now I'm still holding on to the possibility of a 3-way system. However, I might rather wanna go with an additional 8" to fill in in the lower octaves where I've heard there is a risk the sound can be a bit lacking in bass response. I would then choose to cross the 6.5" higher so as not to stress it that much by trying to cross it lower than it likes. 

The problem with an 8" is placement I would guess, as kicks are out of the question due to space limitations, and I fear that placement in the cargo area is out of the question due to directionality issues? Input here would be highly appreciated.

I've also heard that there might be a way of using the A-pillar despite the air bags. I'll try and check that out during the coming week.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

buggsson said:


> For now I'm still holding on to the possibility of a 3-way system. However, I might rather wanna go with an additional 8" to fill in in the lower octaves where I've heard there is a risk the sound can be a bit lacking in bass response. I would then choose to cross the 6.5" higher so as not to stress it that much by trying to cross it lower than it likes.
> 
> The problem with an 8" is placement I would guess, as kicks are out of the question due to space limitations, and I fear that placement in the cargo area is out of the question due to directionality issues? Input here would be highly appreciated.
> 
> I've also heard that there might be a way of using the A-pillar despite the air bags. I'll try and check that out during the coming week.


You have alot of research to do. I'm not being a dick. You can save alot of money and get a much better sound. Being that you drive the basic same car and are looking at the same speakers as me one year ago I can attest. You can save ALOT of money by slowing down and doing some research.

That said, a 3 way without the ability to process is going to sound rich, full, and terrible. Its real hard to get a cohesive front if you can't orchestrate their efforts. You are in the same mindset as I, in the same car, convincing himself of the same idea. The difference between you is a (probably hair color) and the fact hat my $300 crossovers and $400 mids are already paid for and in my garage serving as a lesson learned, that lesson, slow down, PROPER INSTALL, research That was me, anyway. Good luck. You're as convinced as I was


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

I didn't quite pick up on where all the speakers would be mounted, in the 3-way design, but if you can get the tweeters and midranges close together then all the better. Doesn't sound like you could do that with the 2-way.

Directionality with an 8" in the rear would not be an issue as long as you have the front midrange/midbasses and the 8" xover points set properly. It shouldn't be hard to get your front speakers down to 80 hz, which would eliminate the issue altogether.


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## 8675309 (Jan 8, 2007)

It depends! I have a 3 way but I decided off of my dash design for that. My 4runner I would go with a 2 way. Based on your car I would go with a 2 way keeping everything low and add an image tweeter up high.




buggsson said:


> So I tried to choose front system here:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...y-front-system-help-me-un-confuse-choose.html
> And I did search.
> 
> ...


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## Ti. (Jan 30, 2008)

stick to 2 way, but if you think you can fit it, go 3 way


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

bertholomey said:


> My BMW 325i had doors that had 5 1/4's mounted to the inside plastic door panel. I didn't want to do kicks, and didn't want to cut holes in the metal inner panels (you can see the stock grills at the bottom of the door - there is only a shallow indention in the metal behind the grill).
> 
> My installer did a fiberglass pod in the center of the door, slightly on-axis.I have the tweets in the sails. The two-way worked out pretty well in this set up.
> 
> This of course makes these door panels unusable, most would not want to do this, and my install is not stealth. I do really like the sound of the Morels in this configuration though.


Jason, love the fiberglass work on your car!

Just wish Morel didn't have to make such silly looking grilles for the Elates.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

In reference to two points made earlier:

1) Mounting woofer on plastic versus sheet metal - this is a big one. Some cars have great door setups which will allow woofers to excel better than others. The difference can be quite significant. As NP says, a "speaker is only as good as the enclosure"....and in this case, the enclosure part is whether the speaker plays into the door, sits on a nice rigid baffle, and has good front/back wave separation. 

2) Ideal enclosure size for Elate 6" - I recently tried a small enclosure, maybe .3-.4 cubic feet and didn't like it and went back to using the entire door as an enclosure. I'll describe the difference between the two sounds so you can make up your mind:

a) small enclosure - you get somewhat of a punchier sound, a bit more 100 hz energy, and can play louder, but it does sound a bit hollower. If you normally cross at 80 hz, probably not a big deal but if you like to cross 50-60 hz, it may frustrate you.

b) free air - you can play lower, response down to about 45 hz or so. But it's not so much about it playing deep but having the low bass harmonics which give you a "richer" sound than if you just play it in a small enclosure. I feel the mids & subs blend better overall with the free air sound. 

Hope that helps...there are fans of both. Perhaps a sealed enclosure of about 1.5 cubic feet or so would be great, but trying to get that monstrosity in a car door is probably impossible. Whatever the ideal enclosure for these mids (a nice size vented IMO) is probably too large for a car door.

Tread carefully with making an enclosure, or at least be willing to take the gamble $$ and be ok with going back like I did.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Thanks Fellippe for the comment about the 'pods'. Call me weird, but I found a shop out in CA that I was able to get the grills - for some reason, they appeal to me (eye of the beholder thing). 

I was able to get together with an awesome DIYMA member this weekend to do a little RTA work - dialed in a nice curve using the PEQ on the 9887. These Morel midbass drivers produce some nice, clean bass up front. Very musical in these doors.


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## buggsson (Mar 13, 2009)

AWC said:


> You have alot of research to do. I'm not being a dick. You can save alot of money and get a much better sound. Being that you drive the basic same car and are looking at the same speakers as me one year ago I can attest. You can save ALOT of money by slowing down and doing some research.
> 
> That said, a 3 way without the ability to process is going to sound rich, full, and terrible. Its real hard to get a cohesive front if you can't orchestrate their efforts. You are in the same mindset as I, in the same car, convincing himself of the same idea. The difference between you is a (probably hair color) and the fact hat my $300 crossovers and $400 mids are already paid for and in my garage serving as a lesson learned, that lesson, slow down, PROPER INSTALL, research That was me, anyway. Good luck. You're as convinced as I was


Well, what can I say, more than that I agree with what you say. It might not appear so, but I have done tons of research, so I know (now) what I would like to do if I could (not using the daily drive, and more funds), I would go 4-way plus sub, that is the only solution that would allow my to cross over at frequencies that spare the 6.5" from trying to perform tasks they are not built to do. Well, even if my research didn't take me all the way, the way has to end, I have to start to build something, I've actually spent more than 6 months trying to figure things out, it is high time for action

What do you mean with "without the ability to process"? Doesn't a Bit-1 suffice? Or do you mean something else?

I might be able to get better speakers for less, but speaker hunting is what I've spent most time on I would guess, and I am a strong believer in that how a speaker is built is quite important, and also in letting a presumptive customer know as much as possible about the driver. That is seldom the case, so then I'm not interested. I've decided on some parameters that I deem important for me, reviews etc, and then I came up with only 5 contending kits, and then I choose the Elate. I would have had to compromise in the same way with any of those kits.

I've now decided that the only workable way until an additional car turns up, is to go 2-way (plus sub), that quite a few have suggested already. I do hope I don't do a bad decision, I'll see it as an incremental investment on my way to car audio nirvana when (if ever) I get my 4-channel front system in order. 

I will also try the open door approach first with a nice baffle, I can always rip the panel out and build a box later if I think it to be worth a try.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

buggsson said:


> Well, what can I say, more than that I agree with what you say. It might not appear so, but I have done tons of research, so I know (now) what I would like to do if I could (not using the daily drive, and more funds), I would go 4-way plus sub, that is the only solution that would allow my to cross over at frequencies that spare the 6.5" from trying to perform tasks they are not built to do. Well, even if my research didn't take me all the way, the way has to end, I have to start to build something, I've actually spent more than 6 months trying to figure things out, it is high time for action
> 
> What do you mean with "without the ability to process"? Doesn't a Bit-1 suffice? Or do you mean something else?
> 
> ...


Fair enough. As far as directionality and whether or not a sub will work in the trunk, sub frequencies tend to be non-localizeable. You don't usually need to worry about their directionality. 

All I was trying to say is if your "tons" of research is on car speaker sets and not the understanding of soundwaves, you are spending "tons" more than you need 

Enjoy.


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## buggsson (Mar 13, 2009)

AWC said:


> All I was trying to say is if your "tons" of research is on car speaker sets and not the understanding of soundwaves, you are spending "tons" more than you need
> Enjoy.


Yes, I am afraid that very well could be the case. I am so very slow and easily distracted from the "straight path", which brings me into every aspect of audio as I want to "know":laugh: everything about every aspect of it, so if I was to wait until I felt really "ready" I would be close to dead


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

buggsson said:


> Yes, I am afraid that very well could be the case. I am so very slow and easily distracted from the "straight path", which brings me into every aspect of audio as I want to "know":laugh: everything about every aspect of it, so if I was to wait until I felt really "ready" I would be close to dead


Boy can I relate to that. I have put off installing more stuff just because I decided at the last minute, that it just wasn't the right way to go for me (at least at that time and place). That can get expensive!
I can be ridiculously anal about some of this stuff, and it just absolutely has to feel right, or I won't follow through with it. Not that I am a perfectionist when it comes to absolute perfect audio, but it has to really fit me, at that moment in time, and be something I know I'll be happy with for some time to come. Too much information can be a bad thing!


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## Beerhero (Feb 25, 2008)

double post


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## Beerhero (Feb 25, 2008)

2 way + sub.


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## UncivilizedAMD (Mar 22, 2009)

bertholomey said:


> My BMW 325i had doors that had 5 1/4's mounted to the inside plastic door panel. I didn't want to do kicks, and didn't want to cut holes in the metal inner panels (you can see the stock grills at the bottom of the door - there is only a shallow indention in the metal behind the grill).
> 
> My installer did a fiberglass pod in the center of the door, slightly on-axis.I have the tweets in the sails. The two-way worked out pretty well in this set up.
> 
> This of course makes these door panels unusable, most would not want to do this, and my install is not stealth. I do really like the sound of the Morels in this configuration though.


How much did your installer charge you for doing the doors? I have a 3 series too and am starting to plan my door speakers install.

Thanks


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

He did several things at the same time, so not sure how much of the chunk was these pods. Again, I saw that Bing had done kicks and cut holes in the metal door behind where the stock speakers are located - my installer didn't want to do either of these options, and he felt the mids sounded the best in this location. I can PM you additional pics of the build up if you are interested. Just let me know.


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## buggsson (Mar 13, 2009)

Beerhero said:


> 2 way + sub.


Yes, that's my present plan.


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## buggsson (Mar 13, 2009)

AWC said:


> You can save alot of money and get a much better sound. Being that you drive the basic same car and are looking at the same speakers as me one year ago I can attest. You can save ALOT of money by slowing down and doing some research.


So can you/someone else put forward some examples then of suitable drivers that I apparently have missed? And if I could have some solid info on why they would be a better choice than the Elates?

For me, price is not an issue, in the respect that I don't need anything cheaper than the Elates, I don't mind their price. But still, cheap is nice.

I will check up on those other Morels linked to earlier in the thread as well.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

buggsson said:


> So can you/someone else put forward some examples then of suitable drivers that I apparently have missed? And if I could have some solid info on why they would be a better choice than the Elates?
> 
> For me, price is not an issue, in the respect that I don't need anything cheaper than the Elates, I don't mind their price. But still, cheap is nice.
> 
> I will check up on those other Morels linked to earlier in the thread as well.


they built an entire site communicating about various home drivers that outperform or match their perfromance for cheaper. Its called DIYMA and it works by reseacrh Here you are.The links I gave you seem to outperform on paper. I only gave those links because its what I wish I had gotten.


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## ARCuhTEK (Dec 22, 2008)

Just FYI

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/58116-morel-elates-kenwood-8120-a.html


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