# I can barely hear my sub.



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

I can barely hear my sub.










Specs:
Alpine 9887
McIntosh MC427 (100Wrms x 2) ---> CDT CL61A-25PRO
Alpine MRD-M605 (600Wrms x 1 @ 2 ohms) ---> JL 10W6v2

Settings:
Deck crossovers: 80Hz HP / 18dB, 80Hz LP / 12dB
Deck subwoofer level: 15
Deck subwoofer outputs: MONO, 0 degree phase (default)
Amp gains: McIntosh MINIMUM (2V), Alpine digital gain (2.5V)
Alpine temp when subs running: 97.8F
Alpine voltage while running: 11.8V (I did not have the car running)
NO EQ'ing WHATSOEVER, everything dead flat

Comments:
I came from dual 10W3v2 subs years ago to this single 10W6v2. I am very disappointed so far in the sub. I had my McIntosh gains at almost half way, and couldnt hear a thing. (sub). Then I lowered my McIntosh gains to complete minimum, and finally just barely started hearing the sub. I could put my Alpine amp gains to a +4 or +6 bass boost and hear it a little better, but I dont want to burn up a nice sub. Still, I wanted it to be nice at "7" subwoofer deck level, so I'd have room for more when needed. Now, I have to max it and still barely hear it. I never hear it period until I get past deck power 20. I will give this a few days and see if anyone with W6 experience can offer some advice, but I was thinking 600Wrms would be way louder. 

Example:
I had an audition with Ding in 2004. I sat in his Accord with a TRU 4.65. One side of the TRU was pushing a Shiva 12". He played Welcome to the Machine intro. Well my heart almost stopped and my hair stood straight up. My eyeballs vibrated out of my head and I couldn't see straight. This is with maybe 300Wrms at most he was pushing. With MINE... I barely felt a thing.. Was totally boring, didn't vibrate anything.


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

Start from the begining, set everything at zero and work front to back again... 

Run the "normal" gain set up procedure.. check connections... you know this man, it's troubleshooting.. 

ARE you getting movement from it? Is it out of phase? wired 8ohm inadvertently?


----------



## OgreDave (Jul 13, 2005)

Does it have a low/hi switch on the gain? PDX mono did, it helped.

Trade my T4.65 for your MC? lol j/k, but I always wanted to play w/one.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> Start from the begining, set everything at zero and work front to back again...
> 
> Run the "normal" gain set up procedure.. check connections... you know this man, it's troubleshooting..
> 
> ARE you getting movement from it? Is it out of phase? wired 8ohm inadvertently?


It's definitely working, I know that much. It can get decent when I have my trunk open and boosted +4. I really dont think its a settings issue. I think I was expecting W3 output. This W6 is low and deep, but doesnt seem to hit at all.

The W6 comes default at 2 ohms, and I also double checked it before hooking it up.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

OgreDave said:


> Does it have a low/hi switch on the gain? PDX mono did, it helped.
> 
> Trade my T4.65 for your MC? lol j/k, but I always wanted to play w/one.


No dials at all on the sub amp. Its all digital. So the gain can either be: 1.5V, 2.5V, 4V, 8V or something like that. No in between. I remember my MRD-300 had to have gains at 2.5V just to hear it also. I will probably need +6 to +8 boost on this sub amp to get it where I can live with it. But would it be better to buy a different sub with much more output, rather than clipping up this brand new sub? Will it get louder as it breaks in? Its only had about 15 mins run time so far.

On Welcome to the Machine I saw it vibrating probably at least 3/4 of an inch out. I could make a video. : )


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

The W6 is one of the specifically recommended subs for that enclosure. But here are the specs:

Internal Airspace: .85 -.90 cubic feet 

I left all the pillow stuffing in the box also, it came with it.


----------



## Amish (Oct 2, 2006)

If the modern Alpines are like the older Alpines, the bass level is really a cut, not a boost. AKA +15 is 0bB reduction compared to other pre-out levels and 0 is 15dB down compared to other pre-out levels. I had the same problem - try jacking it up to +12 to give you plus/minus adjustment room and go from there.


----------



## sithi (Feb 3, 2008)

Amish said:


> If the modern Alpines are like the older Alpines, the bass level is really a cut, not a boost. AKA +15 is 0bB reduction compared to other pre-out levels and 0 is 15dB down compared to other pre-out levels. I had the same problem - try jacking it up to +12 to give you plus/minus adjustment room and go from there.


x2 ... had the same initial problems of no/low sub movement. Simply had to turn it up to ~12 as well. As of now, 12 is where I keep it, with the gains set, and dial +/- to match the change in music.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

sithi said:


> x2 ... had the same initial problems of no/low sub movement. Simply had to turn it up to ~12 as well. As of now, 12 is where I keep it, with the gains set, and dial +/- to match the change in music.


mine is already at +15 and was always there..


----------



## dingaling (Apr 14, 2005)

placenta, bring ur car over and let me check it out.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

I made a video to show actual sub movement and it will be edited into this post as soon as it's ready.

VIDEO SHOWING SUB MOVEMENT:
http://74.220.202.31/~bellbott/w6test.wmv
(Not on youtube to preserve quality, download it raw)

I probably don't know the meaning of "sub". I wanted to feel the beat of the music and the bass drums. Not some deep rumbling vibrating type thing. My dual 10W3's would hit SO much harder off the same 600Wrms. I know thats double the cone, but it was just a totally different kind of sound.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

dingaling said:


> placenta, bring ur car over and let me check it out.


SUP BRO! Where you living these days? I'm San Mateo, and only have Sundays off right now. Or else I have mornings until noon.


----------



## sithi (Feb 3, 2008)

placenta said:


> mine is already at +15 and was always there..


I'm using an Alpine 9884 that has a 2v preout, and in order to get anything out of the sub I had to set my gains extremely high in order to match the prevolt outage. Perhaps that is what you need to do as well?

And, I mean, literally, the gain is near set to max. If I don't set it this way, I have almost NO sub movement. After the gain level setting, I just control the output with the deck dial - usually starting at around 12, but enjoy from 7-15. Despite the high gain, there is no clipping or distortion. 

I'm not expert on this, but maybe that helps.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

Hmm you sure you can hear distortion in a sub? Thats the usual problem...

Hey, someone on another forum made a big finding.. He says my sub box is way too big..


My box:
Internal Airspace: .85 -.90 cubic feet 

JL Recommended Sealed Enclosures:
10W6v2-D4 0.625 cu. ft. / 17.7 liters-----net internal volume

He also says all that pillow stuffing in there is making it even worse. Its packed with pillow foam.


----------



## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

Inject a different input signal into the amplifier that is powering the sub, i.e. ipod RCA out, Laptop lineout...etc

This will tell you if the amp can do what it's supposed to do, without the rest of your processing and etc. 

What I have seen, rarely, is the possibility of the input RCA's being 'out of phase.' Try removing one RCA jack from the amplifier and see the result, then remove that one and plug in the other, one at a time basically. Then plug them both in.


----------



## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Looks like your trunk is pretty well sealed off from the cabin?

Also 2 10w3v2 are way more efficient IIRC than a single 10w6v2.

Ding and his Shiva are pretty damn loud...


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> Does the amp rack/wall seal off the trunk from the passenger compartment? I can see a gap in the top left but it's not a great perspective. Also, what have you done to the rear deck and do you have folding rear seats?
> 
> What all has changed from the setup you had with the 10w3?


the amp rack almost completely seals off the trunk. It is fiberglass and seals tight. The seats are not fold down. I dont even have the seats in yet... I can imaging how poor it will be if I add even more blockage.

Haven't done anything to the rear deck. the 10W3s were in a totally different car years ago, so its not really comparable. I was just mentioning the difference in sound of W3 vs W6.


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

Pull the rear speakers mang... oh, wait.. they are inthe doors aren't they... 


<<< owned by the GC goodness.. lol..


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

npdang said:


> Looks like your trunk is pretty well sealed off from the cabin?
> 
> Also 2 10w3v2 are way more efficient IIRC than a single 10w6v2.
> 
> Ding and his Shiva are pretty damn loud...


i was even thinking of going to a JL 10W3v2 instead, or maybe a Image Dynamics 10. But I will give this W6 a few days testing first. It reminds me of why I hated my 10W7 so much. I guess I'm not into SQ, I'm into hard hitting bass.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

damn... not much i can do about that then.. unless I go a single shallow 10" under my seat... 

i got the sub loud enough now.. by putting the amp gain to 1.5V, and +4 bass boost. now it keeps up with the fronts and is plenty loud. but i think that cabin thing is really making the sub work too hard.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

PS, never mentioned my McIntosh amp problem today. I heard the static a lot on the way here. and it always sounds like its directly from my tweet, crackle and popping randomly. So I will swap my passive crossover inputs next and see if the noise moves to the other side.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> I am just going by the picture, but it looks like you could hack your rear deck and use that as a vent to the cabin. Idea would be to remove some sheetmetal to allow some air movement, then cover it with some sort of trim panel with speaker cloth. Just look at what people do to the rear deck when they go IB and do the opposite.


ya i am trying not to do anything permanent to the car, so far nothing is cut at all. but I'll investigate and think about it.


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

Man, I don't know about you not getting "bass" in to the cabin.. I mean, i've seen cars with what looked like they had the subs/trunk sealed off and they got plenty of output... 

Have you considered taking up some space in the box, to get closer to ideal? 

A few chunks of 2x4 (easily measured) would work quick and easy to see if there is any marked difference in changing the box volume..


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> Man, I don't know about you not getting "bass" in to the cabin.. I mean, i've seen cars with what looked like they had the subs/trunk sealed off and they got plenty of output...
> 
> Have you considered taking up some space in the box, to get closer to ideal?
> 
> A few chunks of 2x4 (easily measured) would work quick and easy to see if there is any marked difference in changing the box volume..


well, I get plenty of bass since i cranked my gains and boost a bit. its sounds like it should I guess. But I might think about checking my rear deck next. I'll see if there are any pre existing holes just to get the final picture. I could cut holes in the deck and it would be hidden by the deck carpet anyway.

I already took out like 2 cu ft of stuffing from the box. You dont have to bolt the wood down? Course it would be guesswork anyway.. I'd rather just get a sub which works perfectly in my stock size enclosure.

The thought of a 10" under seat shallow sub sounds interesting, but I doubt any of them can handle 600Wrms..


----------



## MACS (Oct 3, 2007)

placenta said:


> The W6 is one of the specifically recommended subs for that enclosure. But here are the specs:
> 
> Internal Airspace: .85 -.90 cubic feet
> 
> I left all the pillow stuffing in the box also, it came with it.


 I'm running a single 10W6v2 in the console of my F-250 extended cab work truck. My console/box is sealed and pretty close to the same size your enclosure is. Running it off of a little Xtant 301a 1x300 watt mono amp, it gets plenty loud and goes pretty damn low for a sealed 10".

I agree with the others, that your trunk may be too isolated from your passenger compartment. Also comparing a single 10w6v2 to two 10W3's may have something to do with it to. You're giving up a lot of cone area.


----------



## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

well, you said it yourself, you get good output at +7 with the trunk open. So to me it sounds like your trunk is sealed very well. get a hole saw and start opening up the rear deck.


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

placenta said:


> well, I get plenty of bass since i cranked my gains and boost a bit. its sounds like it should I guess. But I might think about checking my rear deck next. I'll see if there are any pre existing holes just to get the final picture. I could cut holes in the deck and it would be hidden by the deck carpet anyway.
> 
> I already took out like 2 cu ft of stuffing from the box. You dont have to bolt the wood down? Course it would be guesswork anyway.. I'd rather just get a sub which works perfectly in my stock size enclosure.
> 
> The thought of a 10" under seat shallow sub sounds interesting, but I doubt any of them can handle 600Wrms..


The great thing about 2x4's is that you can EASILY figure the volume of the 2x4... Then subtract that from the box volume and BAM, you've jusr REMOVED volume from the box... try it by just leaving them in there, if it works, a little dab of silicone and you are DONE.. 

A 10" underseat sub in a Subie... you are dreaming.. or on something.. lol..


----------



## Robdoggz (Sep 16, 2007)

placenta said:


> i was even thinking of going to a JL 10W3v2 instead, or maybe a Image Dynamics 10. But I will give this W6 a few days testing first. It reminds me of why I hated my 10W7 so much. I guess I'm not into SQ, I'm into hard hitting bass.


Honestly i think this is the issue you are going for pure sq but you are not a pure sq head. I think you really will not be happy with a single 10 nothing wrong with wanting some bump we will still love you  I would suggest a second 10w6. Also in my opinion the 10w6 will work better for "my" taste which seem similar to yours in a larger box 0.85-1.25 net.

I don't really trust jl box specs but thats just me i heard a 13w7 that sounded like arse in jl made 1.85ft jl box off 1000/1 i tried to make it sound good to me to no avail. Now my 13w7 sounded very nice to me in a 2.6ft sealed net box. In my opinion jl box specs are for the general public that tend to think 50-150hz is sub bass and those boxes will allow the jl sub to hold its rated power. I like my subs a bit well dampened if thats an actual term. Remember i am no tech head i just experiment so this is from my findings on jl subs. I wish you good luck and hope you can attend the meet april 5.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

Robdoggz said:


> Honestly i think this is the issue you are going for pure sq but you are not a pure sq head.


that about sums it up..


----------



## dingaling (Apr 14, 2005)

placenta said:


> SUP BRO! Where you living these days? I'm San Mateo, and only have Sundays off right now. Or else I have mornings until noon.


I'm still in Oakland, ur not too far off.
Drop me a PM and we can meetup sometime.


----------



## pikers (Oct 21, 2007)

Looks like the trunk is totally isolated. Might have something to do with it.


----------



## 8675309 (Jan 8, 2007)

LOL

I would build a ported box with the port going through the rear deck. If you could get the woofer and port on the rear deck that would be cool.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

8675309 said:


> LOL
> 
> I would build a ported box with the port going through the rear deck. If you could get the woofer and port on the rear deck that would be cool.



HAHAHAHA but yes, I use Qtips every day.. no wax.


----------



## 96dak (Jan 28, 2008)

ive always had to crack the gains alot higher than i thought i should have on those alpine digital amps. every one ive installed, guess thats why they did away with them.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

96dak said:


> ive always had to crack the gains alot higher than i thought i should have on those alpine digital amps. every one ive installed, guess thats why they did away with them.


i think you're right. At 1.5V gain setting on that amp it finally started sounding like what I thought 600Wrms should sound like.


----------



## kimokalihi (May 27, 2007)

Probably not the problem but I had the same problem a couple days ago when I put a sub in my car. Turned out I had one channel phase reversed because it was using the same RCAs as the midbasses and I reversed one side. The sub was only playing very low and I had to give it full bass boost on the amp to get any output and it still wasn't much. Then I flipped the one side back to normal and it just about blew my ears!


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

kimokalihi said:


> Probably not the problem but I had the same problem a couple days ago when I put a sub in my car. Turned out I had one channel phase reversed because it was using the same RCAs as the midbasses and I reversed one side. The sub was only playing very low and I had to give it full bass boost on the amp to get any output and it still wasn't much. Then I flipped the one side back to normal and it just about blew my ears!


hmm in only have 2 sets of RCA's one to front and one to sub amp. and theyre diff brands. so i dont think i could mix them up.


----------



## Beerhero (Feb 25, 2008)

From the video you posted, your gains are way too low. In that video your sub was getting something like 15-20W.  You should not use headunit's sub volume to get decent output, set it to 0 and do all of your tuning from there. Crank up your gains - you can always turn them down later.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

I just confirmed my rear deck situation on my own car. I have two big holes in my rear deck, one on each side. The only thing in between trunk and cabin is some foam.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

Beerhero said:


> From the video you posted, your gains are way too low. In that video your sub was getting something like 15-20W.  You should not use headunit's sub volume to get decent output, set it to 0 and do all of your tuning from there. Crank up your gains - you can always turn them down later.


My understanding of the sub level on Alpine deck is if I set it to 0, then the sub RCA gets zero signal.


----------



## kimokalihi (May 27, 2007)

Oh, lol. I wasn't talking about mixing them up. I was running sub and midbasses off the same RCA pair and the amp splits it internally for the sub. That's why I didn't think that was your problem but thought it was worth stating.


----------



## Beerhero (Feb 25, 2008)

placenta said:


> My understanding of the sub level on Alpine deck is if I set it to 0, then the sub RCA gets zero signal.



At 0 it should get the same amount of voltage as the rest of your RCAs. It has negative settings past 0, right?


Another problem might be the enclosure itself being too thin/transparent so that the back wave of the sub cancels out the front wave and it sounds like in free air. Did you use MDF board to isolate the back wave?




.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

Beerhero said:


> At 0 it should get the same amount of voltage as the rest of your RCAs. It has negative settings past 0, right?
> 
> 
> Another problem might be the enclosure itself being too thin/transparent so that the back wave of the sub cancels out the front wave and it sounds like in free air. Did you use MDF board to isolate the back wave?
> ...


no, it does not have negative settings. the entire range is 0 to 15.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

I also have a sub subsonic filter. I can cut out 15Hz and lower or 30Hz and lower to make my amp power more efficient. Its off right now.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

Beerhero said:


> At 0 it should get the same amount of voltage as the rest of your RCAs. It has negative settings past 0, right?
> 
> 
> Another problem might be the enclosure itself being too thin/transparent so that the back wave of the sub cancels out the front wave and it sounds like in free air. Did you use MDF board to isolate the back wave?
> ...



that box is completed sealed and fiberglass, with a MDF mounting ring.


----------



## Robdoggz (Sep 16, 2007)

Too bad you live too far from me i would hook my a7hc to that sub just to see if it can wang  I would try checking the polarity of the sub and does that head unit have a phase switch? Try switching phase and see what happens.


----------



## Beerhero (Feb 25, 2008)

placenta said:


> that box is completed sealed and fiberglass, with a MDF mounting ring.



I think that the ring is not enough to properly isolate the sub. If you turned the gains all the way up and still missing bass, I would remove the sub from your enclosure and put it into some random wooden enclosure to see if it makes any difference. I have exactly the same sub in my ride in sealed enclosure powered by JBL bpx600.1 and I can hardly breath when I turn the volume up.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

Beerhero said:


> I think that the ring is not enough to properly isolate the sub. If you turned the gains all the way up and still missing bass, I would remove the sub from your enclosure and put it into some random wooden enclosure to see if it makes any difference. I have exactly the same sub in my ride in sealed enclosure powered by JBL bpx600.1 and I can hardly breath when I turn the volume up.



ahhaahh DAMN! If my sub was in my back seat it would be perfect too.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

Robdoggz said:


> Too bad you live too far from me i would hook my a7hc to that sub just to see if it can wang  I would try checking the polarity of the sub and does that head unit have a phase switch? Try switching phase and see what happens.


ya it has a phase switch. man im been busy at work today with all my threads on this. I have a lot of things to play with when i finally get back to my car.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

You can see that if i bolt a grill to the top with a nice trim, the bolts might hit the metal on the rear deck. I'll be thinking about how to clean this up today. I made the hole a bit smaller so i can use either a 5.25" or 6.5" grill of some type.


----------



## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

I always use the rear deck speaker openings as the flow-through from the trunk to the passenger compartment as I don't run rear speakers.....so I just remove them. Works well.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

I am now looking for a new amp and will probably replace the Alpine amp while I'm at it.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32757&page=2


----------



## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

placenta said:


> I am now looking for a new amp and will probably replace the Alpine amp while I'm at it.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32757&page=2


I hope you don't have to go through all the crap I'm having to go through with my system. It's really taking all the fun out of what used to be a very enjoyable hobby for me.


----------

