# Old school builds?



## fuzzcar

Why do people do "Old school builds" using old 1990's era discontinued gear?

Apparently there is a bit of a market for this old stuff in good shape, but I'm not exactly sure why.


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## jp88

Why do people still drive old school cars?


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## jcpahman77

For some there's a certain nostalgia surrounding the older amps. I'm probably not alone when I say modern tech has gotten a bit cheap. Too many brands are selling on their name alone or just banging out units as quickly and "cost affordably" as they can. I found an old Kenwood KAC-846 50x4 amp for $10 at a thrift shop that needed a minor repair and sounds great. THD rating is 0.08 at RMS power and only drops to 0.8 at peak power of 100x4 watts.


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## Hi-FiDelity

One potential reason that I haven't seen mentioned is that maybe they want gear that matches the era of the car they are driving. I mean there is something to be said about driving a 1982 Cutlass with a period system installed. I'm kinda doing that with my 93 Eldorado SC, all though in my case I'm going with newer gear that has an old school (late 80's early 90's) look.


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## weshole

One thing about older gear is that you could easily tell good product from crap product. And you also knew that no matter what brand you had, no one was using the same components and putting their name on it. More exclusivity I guess. And there is quite a bit of the older stuff that was very well built and even over built at times.


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## ryanr7386

fuzzcar said:


> Why do people do "Old school builds" using old 1990's era discontinued gear?
> 
> Apparently there is a bit of a market for this old stuff in good shape, but I'm not exactly sure why.


Because I want too, and I can! 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...erbird-sc-sq-build-old-school-alpine-ads.html


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## fuzzcar

I just was not sure if there was/is something better about the older gear or if it was nostalgia or cheaper cost. I guess to me the music is mostly the interest in car audio, the building of the system is interesting but in the end its not about the equiptment, but how good it sounds.


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## ryanr7386

fuzzcar said:


> I just was not sure if there was/is something better about the older gear or if it was nostalgia or cheaper cost. I guess to me the music is mostly the interest in car audio, the building of the system is interesting but in the end its not about the equiptment, but how good it sounds.


All the above! I personally love the old gear. I used to have most of this equipment back in the late 80's early 90's and got away from the Car Audio scene until just a few years ago. I have went back to what I know and as it turns out, alot of this gear is still going strong! And that goes back to how well it was built back in the day! You certianly can't say that about alot of the newer crap out on the market now days.


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## RNBRAD

Sought after OS gear has been tried tested and true. A lot of people here know exactly what brands and models fit that description. Today with all the manufacturer brand changes, cut backs and quality control issues floating around in new stuff. It's less of a risk to just dust off that old equipment that's been sitting in the closet. There is nothing currently made today that OS brands can't match or beat. Newer processors today are the only benefit of using the new stuff with their advancement in technology and features.


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## thehatedguy

Because there are people out there who couldn't afford the gear when it was new because they were teenagers then and now in their 30s the can.


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## Darth SQ

Because it's all just so f'n cool! 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## jcpahman77

I know there's another whole thread about this so I don't want to delve too far into it here, but I know for my own part, I just can't trust class D for anything more than a sub. My mains need to be Class A/B. Now, that's just my opinion, but considering that other thread has been going for a while, I bet I'm not alone.


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## Darth SQ

jcpahman77 said:


> I know there's another whole thread about this so I don't want to delve too far into it here, but I know for my own part, I just can't trust class D for anything more than a sub. My mains need to be Class A/B. Now, that's just my opinion, but considering that other thread has been going for a while, I bet I'm not alone.


Many will agree with you and that includes are few car audio stars on here.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## jcpahman77

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Many will agree with you and that includes are few car audio stars on here.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I think part of it, again, for me; is that I got started in electronics and audio before most people had internet and for whatever reason I can't trust a chip, digital or otherwise, with my audio. I don't like IC's. I imagine if I had gotten my start with tube amplifiers my feelings would be about the same about transistors. I built and repaired car amps in high school while attending the county tech center. Transistors work for me, IC's don't. The worst and most impressive thing was when someone brought in a Reference Series Soundstream amp in because it wouldn't power on. My friend and I spent a week on that thing. Soundstream wouldn't provide the schematics and this was before Google. That amp had a 6 layer board, and the level of craftsmanship on the inside was staggering.


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## SPLEclipse

thehatedguy said:


> Because there are people out there who couldn't afford the gear when it was new because they were teenagers then and now in their 30s the can.


Damn...that's really the truth ain't it?


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## ryanr7386

cajunner said:


> a couple of thoughts.
> 
> "it's hard to admit my technology is 80's based, I still like the sound of vinyl, even cassettes are in the ol' wheelhouse QUOTE]
> 
> I'm right there with ya on that point but it's not to say we don't understand what the new technology is! The Old School Technology laid the foundation for the new BS out today!


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## k24_powered_dc5

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Because it's all just so f'n cool!
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


i bet your table of goodness is sitting there right now with all that lovely PPI art just so you can look at it huh?

I like the OS for almost all the above reasons, like Bret i am a huge fan of Precision Power, i am currently collecting the Chrome PC's.
Although i wish i could have all my MB Quart Q stuff with my big chrome mufflers all laid out on a table like that.


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## Catman

I use 1980s amps / x-overs because there is very little these days that will begin to come close to the SQ I get out of them. Same thing applies to some of the subs / speakers as well.


>^..^<


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## Darth SQ

k24_powered_dc5 said:


> i bet your table of goodness is sitting there right now with all that lovely PPI art just so you can look at it huh?
> 
> I like the OS for almost all the above reasons, like Bret i am a huge fan of Precision Power, i am currently collecting the Chrome PC's.
> Although i wish i could have all my MB Quart Q stuff with my big chrome mufflers all laid out on a table like that.


Thanks.
Nope, there all locked back up waiting for installation in just a few weeks. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## chefhow

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Many will agree with you and that includes are few car audio stars on here.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Funny, but two of what many/most consider to be the best sounding cars in the world use Class D amps. Just sayin...


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## Boostedrex

fuzzcar said:


> Why do people do "Old school builds" using old 1990's era discontinued gear?
> 
> Apparently there is a bit of a market for this old stuff in good shape, but I'm not exactly sure why.


Why do people re-build/restore 60's era muscle cars that use grossly outdated technology? Because they like it. 




chefhow said:


> Funny, but two of what many/most consider to be the best sounding cars in the world use Class D amps. Just sayin...


I know 1 of the 2 cars you're referring to. Not sure who the 2nd car is. But I'll vouch for the NASCAR and say that it is truly amazing! 100% class D amplification.


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## Mic10is

Boostedrex said:


> Why do people re-build/restore 60's era muscle cars that use grossly outdated technology? Because they like it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know 1 of the 2 cars you're referring to. Not sure who the 2nd car is. But I'll vouch for the NASCAR and say that it is truly amazing! 100% class D amplification.


Buwalda's G35 used all JL amps. highest SQ and install score in IASCA finals couple years in a row


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## thehatedguy

I forgot about that. I was thinking he was suggesting Todd's vw. So that's 3 good cars.


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## chefhow

thehatedguy said:


> I forgot about that. I was thinking he was suggesting Todd's vw. So that's 3 good cars.


While I would rank Todds car as one of the best I have ever heard, I dont think enough people know it yet to be able to relate it to Mark and Scotts cars.


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## RNBRAD

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Because it's all just so f'n cool!
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


They do offer a 10 step program for your condition. Not that your wanting a cure, just sayin.....


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## Darth SQ

RNBRAD said:


> They do offer a 10 step program for your condition. Not that your wanting a cure, just sayin.....


Funny you mentioned that.
Once I finally bought the A204.2 which was the last to complete the 1996 white art Art collection, I no longer had any desire to buy anymore. :shrug:


Not even the ProArts. :shrug: :shrug:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## RNBRAD

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Funny you mentioned that.
> Once I finally bought the A204.2 which was the last to complete the 1996 white art Art collection, I no longer had any desire to buy anymore. :shrug:
> 
> 
> Not even the ProArts. :shrug: :shrug:
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I suspect your family did an intervention under hypnosis. We just wake up one day, problem gone and can't recall why. :laugh: nice collection anyway!!


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## NonSenCe

ppi-art.. just remember.. one is none, two is one. but three is backup.


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## Ultimateherts

Mic10is said:


> Buwalda's G35 used all JL amps. highest SQ and install score in IASCA finals couple years in a row


I know we can't go back in time... How would the installs of today sound in comparison of previous years? Did the speakers get better over the years (I would say yes) ?


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## Mic10is

Ultimateherts said:


> I know we can't go back in time... How would the installs of today sound in comparison of previous years? Did the speakers get better over the years (I would say yes) ?


It is an interesting question which has been asked many times and its something that not even competitors agree on.

Early on in competition, most vehicles were very dynamic and full range loud. RTA and SPl was done back to back and SPL was more less measure full range, not with a 100hz or 80hz mic like it is now.
So your car had to get loud full range, and you were not allowed adjustments between SQ, SPL and RTA.

so with your SQ setting, you had to make the car sound good, score well on RTA and still get loud full range. Not an easy task by any means.

There was less emphasis on technical aspects, and much more emphasis on Tonal and spectral balance. 

Then in the late 90s to mid 2000s there was more of a shift toward more technical sound with less emphasis on Tonal. While the score sheet didnt change, it still awarded more points in Tonal characteristics than Technical--what did change was adjustments were allowed between SQ and RTA, SPL.
this was spurred by people cheating the system, but having hidden switches, dedicated EQs just for RTA etc...

So with the ability to tune for each section of scoring--the emphasis for some reason shifted toward technical. so many systems became very analytical sounding. very dry and somewhat unnatural with tiny pin point images placed on a very controlled stage.

then since about 2008 or so, there has been a gradual shift back toward Tonal emphasis. so people are tuning more for Tonality over technical and many judges are being more forgiving on the technical aspects if it is tonally accurate.

Honestly I do not think speakers have changed that much, what has changed is the ability for more people to get information. With the internet, forums, chats etc...it is much easier for joe schmoe to learn how to tune "properly" than it was back in the mid to late 90s and even early 2000s.
Back then, there were only a handful of known great tuners. guys like Eric Stevens, Eric Holdaway, PJ's Autosound crew,, Dell Helmer, Greg Davis at Kicker, etc....

Now, there are so many guys who are good tuners and so much info online, that its very easy for people to learn. RTA's were readily available back then. Now you can make a cheap RTA with your laptop.

Hopefully that answers your question , at least in my opinion of the differences


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## RNBRAD

Ultimateherts said:


> I know we can't go back in time... How would the installs of today sound in comparison of previous years? Did the speakers get better over the years (I would say yes) ?


I think the install techniques and product features have improved more so than the base product itself. The DSP market for example has exploded and brought to the table more options than we could have done otherwise. This has allowed installers to overcome some problems with previous install techniques and change them all together. I think this is the main shift from kick placement to pillar placement. With advances in T/A options we can compensate for the proximety difference where we couldn't compensate for the stage height problems with kicks. It's a good time to be a car audio hobbyist or competitor. Options are many and wattage is cheap. Competition categories and options have improved greatly. Making it easy for anyone and everyone to compete. Some of the things Mic mentioned about the history of car audio competition was part of it's own downfall. Most people, such as myself got tired of jumping through the hoops when ultimately you could make a better sounding vehicle without focusing on specific points of a score sheet. It was always a compromise. You couldn't excell in 1 stage without compromising the other. Competitors worked around it, cause ultimately it is about SQ at any cost. One thing I like about single seat competitions. Always seemed silly to have it tuned for both seats. Always had people working around it though and would do the single center seat, lol. It's those things that have brought it to where it is today, although there has been plenty of bumps along the way. I just hope it can grow to what it once was. I think most people will find enjoyment in it and most rewarding, especially compared to what it was just over a decade ago.


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## thehatedguy

It won't ever be what it was because of the techology. It made competitors/installers lazy. You don't have to jump through the hoops and do a lot of planning when you can just push a button to change things. That was the challenge- to be able to do it all from the sound side (sound, RTA, SPL) and install...if you are really old, then security too.

But cars today (in general) have no balls to them compared to the old cars.


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## sqchris

any of the old school builds still competing?


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## minbari

thehatedguy said:


> It won't ever be what it was because of the techology. It made competitors/installers lazy. You don't have to jump through the hoops and do a lot of planning when you can just push a button to change things. That was the challenge- to be able to do it all from the sound side (sound, RTA, SPL) and install...if you are really old, then security too.
> 
> But cars today (in general) have no balls to them compared to the old cars.


that is for sure. no "auto tune" button back then. RTA cost $1500, nobody had an oscope. You might have had a DMM that could measure high enough AC.

you had to actually setup and tune it yourself. The people who were successful knew something about electronics and had good ears. 


I think it is all about nostalgia as well. I mean why else? I have a PG EQ215 and a sound stream amplifier from the 90's. why? because I couldnt aford it when I was kid and I always wanted a sound stream amp.

I tried to find enough Hifonics series VIII amps to put my system together, but most are hacked or in bad shape. it a shame, those were always my fav.


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## sqchris

minbari said:


> that is for sure. no "auto tune" button back then. RTA cost $1500, nobody had an oscope. You might have had a DMM that could measure high enough AC.
> 
> you had to actually setup and tune it yourself. The people who were successful knew something about electronics and had good ears.
> 
> 
> I think it is all about nostalgia as well. I mean why else? I have a PG EQ215 and a sound stream amplifier from the 90's. why? because I couldnt aford it when I was kid and I always wanted a sound stream amp.
> 
> I tried to find enough Hifonics series VIII amps to put my system together, but most are hacked or in bad shape. it a shame, those were always my fav.


Very few have access to RTA's and MLSSA.


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## minbari

sqchris said:


> Very few have access to RTA's and MLSSA.


there was a shop near me that had the Audio Control RTA, but they wanted like $50 an hour to use it, lol. that was alot of mcdonalds money (where I worked)


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## sqchris

Used to compete (late 80's) pay $20 entry fee just to get an RTA printout.


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## justicepool

thehatedguy said:


> Because there are people out there who couldn't afford the gear when it was new because they were teenagers then and now in their 30s the can.


And some even in their early 40's. This is me for sure. Zapco, PPI, Soundstream, Linear Power, etc.,.. These were all brands that were too much $$$ for me in those days.

Anyone else remember Kimura's Acura? Of course everyone remembers the 1986 Buick GN.


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## sqchris

Someone mentioned here that Harry's Legend is making a comeback.
Love the details in some of the old school install like Todd Matsubara's Tbird.


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## ryanr7386

sqchris said:


> Someone mentioned here that Harry's Legend is making a comeback.
> Love the details in some of the old school install like Todd Matsubara's Tbird.


Where can I find a link to the T-Bird install or is there one?


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## sqchris

quick google found this....Todd Matsubara - 1988 Thunderbird - 1994 CSR


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## ryanr7386

sqchris said:


> quick google found this....Todd Matsubara - 1988 Thunderbird - 1994 CSR


Thanks man! I couldn't place the name but it all came back in a hurry when I seen the Link. Memories!


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## chefhow

The Legend should be done and ready to go in August, I spoke to the new owner yesterday about it.


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## Darth SQ

chefhow said:


> The Legend should be done and ready to go in August, I spoke to the new owner yesterday about it.


Do you have some pics you can share?


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## bigbubba

I would love to see the Legend. Crazy thing is the Legend was in my hometown of Jackson for 5 years and I never knew it till after is was sold and on its way to Georgia.


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## sqchris

chefhow said:


> The Legend should be done and ready to go in August, I spoke to the new owner yesterday about it.


Are you able to give us some hints on what we will be seeing/hearing?


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## chefhow

No pics, not my place to say what it's got in it, but I will tell you that the car will be a game changerin how people think about car audio from what I have been told by the owner.


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## sqchris

chefhow said:


> No pics, not my place to say what it's got in it, but I will tell you that the car will be a game changerin how people think about car audio from what I have been told by the owner.


looking forward to the new/old Legend!


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## soundhertz

I always get all warm and fuzzy thinking about old school days. For me it started in the late '80s. I just love the stuff. It seemed to me that it was more about good quality, regardless of price. Everything is disposable these days. Sad.(( 
That being said, I am almost ready to install my system. Only two pieces that are not "old school", are a Pioneer P99rs and a set of Legatia L8s that are already in my doors. Otherwise its AVI components, 4 Orion NT amps and IDW18s bringing up the rear. 
I need a cigarette. ;-)


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## SilkySlim

I can't speak for anyone else but I have a/b tested over 150 different OS and NS amps on well over 20k pair speakers and on 2k+ bookshelf speakers. I did this before I decided what to run in cars. I did this for one reason only I tried a couple of NS amps and was very disappointed to say the least. Then I found out that many NS amps are using many proprietary parts that make them next to impossible to repair vs. OS amps used more off the shelf parts easier to spec parts and repair. Don't even get me started about how much specialized stuff is in class D amp. We went from a nation that the world looked too for unbelievably good sound and quality products. Now we have to look at mostly European design and manufactured amps just to even get close. There are a few I know that are still left here. Bigs thanks to old school stereo for power ratings/ but there was a missing hole of info how does it sound!!!!

My system designs usually start with getting as much of the sound you want in planning for picking the right components first. Pick the best placement possibilities and overcome as little as possible with processing. 

That being said here are the results very very general. I will leave out most brand names. If you want some names PM me and I can help you. 

NS amps
Bright and thin sounding, fatiguing, loud, harsh, in your face very clinical. Exaggerated power ratings.

OS
The brightest OS amps are about on par with the warmest of the NS amps.
OS Much stronger power. Far more control and composure. Warm and natural sounding amps without the losing the details.
Anyway that is my humble opinion.


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## SilkySlim

Ok I live in shame for the poor grammar I have written on this site. I am sorry I can't even read my own posts. If I waited until i get back on the computer I would never have a post. I will try not to rush as much sorry.


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## Darth SQ

You're a stand up guy admitting that to us SS.
A very respectable posting indeed. :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## [email protected]

I'll tell you this. I think it also has to do with experiences during those times. I've had GREAT experiences in an 1986 Cutlass Supreme. I still remember listening to one of the local radio stations with my then girlfriend. Those were the times. Everytime I see one of those cars on the road, I always think about those times and how the music through the "system" sounded.


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## jcpahman77

Nostalgia plays a large part for sure but to this day I have never heard Soundgarden's "black hole sun" sound any better than it did on an old Yamaha CR-640 natural sound stereo I got from my father played across the radio. Granted I'm throwing a pear into a comparison of apples and oranges, but I think the point is still valid. 

Sent from the NSA


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## rockin

Because I don't want junk **** made in China. The fact that "old school" (however you define that) equipment - like US made amplifiers 4 example- are still performing strong 20 and 30+ years later should be a clue. Let's see how long the made in China products last.


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## Roadbird

Previous post: "Because there are people out there who couldn't afford the gear when it was new because they were teenagers then and now in their 30s the can. "

Uhh. Errr. Because there are people out there who couldn't afford the gear when it
was new because they were young then and now in their * 60s *they can!

Also. Black bricks with big industrial looking heat sinks. Just something we old schoolers
can't resist.


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## jcpahman77

If I can pick it up and it isn't a "two man lift" I'm usually not too interested. This trend towards smaller/lighter being better bothers the ish outta me.

Sent from the NSA


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## SilkySlim

We Just installed an old school ish system in a buddy's car old school car I will post pics when finished. Sounds awesome will get much better. NS head unit and morel subs. The rest pure old school.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Darkrider

I'm really fond of the Japanese made Pre-V12 Alpines. I really have not liked any of the V12 Alpines I have heard. They all sounded empty and clinical to me. I have 2 x 3566's and a 3527s. They just sound so good. I'm always on the lookout for more of them as well. I like the old RF amps as well - I have a Punch 150HD that needs some work, but when it was working, it was just staggering the power that came out of that tiny thing.

Maybe the issue with newer class D amps is the lower damping factors?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^no. The problem is people believing they are worse and not testing blind, with makes the test invalid.


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## SilkySlim

Darkrider said:


> I'm really fond of the Japanese made Pre-V12 Alpines. I really have not liked any of the V12 Alpines I have heard. They all sounded empty and clinical to me. I have 2 x 3566's and a 3527s. They just sound so good. I'm always on the lookout for more of them as well. I like the old RF amps as well - I have a Punch 150HD that needs some work, but when it was working, it was just staggering the power that came out of that tiny thing.
> 
> Maybe the issue with newer class D amps is the lower damping factors?


Those punches were mad crazy on the low end they squeezed every last watt out of those tiny little chassis. For subs they were hard to beat for the size. They also lived on the edge when they gave up or push just beyond the limits it went catastrophic nuclear reactor meltdowns. You keep them in their wheelhouse they were strong. I have done blind auditioning and have heard differences for sure. I always liked the 35 series to I have a 3555 but it has a channel down needs a little work.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Theronh357

Talk about nostalgia, I'm still lugging around a working pair of Harmon Kardon CA 260's and a pair of CA 240's, that came out a VW Cabriolet I use to own, back when I was 18*...and that was in '88*


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## ou812

Darkrider said:


> I'm really fond of the Japanese made Pre-V12 Alpines. I really have not liked any of the V12 Alpines I have heard. They all sounded empty and clinical to me. I have 2 x 3566's and a 3527s. They just sound so good. I'm always on the lookout for more of them as well. I like the old RF amps as well - I have a Punch 150HD that needs some work, but when it was working, it was just staggering the power that came out of that tiny thing.
> 
> Maybe the issue with newer class D amps is the lower damping factors?


The first real system I had was a Punch 150,75 and 45. The hu was a Pioneer cassette deck and I have no clue what the components were but I do remember the sub was a 12 inch McCauley and it sounded incredible.


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## minbari

ou812 said:


> The first real system I had was a Punch 150,75 and 45. The hu was a Pioneer cassette deck and I have no clue what the components were but I do remember the sub was a 12 inch McCauley and it sounded incredible.


I heard a McCauley pro 10" in 300z on a zapco 300x 2 bridged to 900 in early 90's. Amazing the bass that came out of that sub.

sent from my phone using digital farts


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## trojan fan

Back in the 80's, M & M Godfathers were the Bad Boys, plus power 650's and power 1000's


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## PPI_GUY

For me nostalgia is a part of it. Back in the late 80's-early 90's, I owned and used many of the same amps I collect today. I just _know_ these amps. They are familiar to me and I like their sound and even the cosmetics. I'm not nearly as attached to old school speakers as some. Although, I do run a set of version 1 IDQ 10's in my daily driver!

I do know you don't even have to think about whether a Orion HCCA 250 or RF Punch 150 is a good amp. You know they are. You've got a ton of history to back them up. Sure, there are subtle variances between them but, that's cool too. 
I like how there weren't many amps with plastic mounting feet back in the day. Most weren't all chromed out with non-functional shiny bits for decoration either. Heck, I even like the fact that very few had onboard crossovers because that meant that everybody had an active crossover somewhere in their system. Those PA-1 pre-amps were the trick and who didn't enjoy tweaking and playing with their setup in the parking lot of the local shop(s)?

Current head units and processors are definitely amazing and help you achieve remarkable sound. But, they also remove a certain human element from the experience as well. It's just very easy to get an amazing setup with minimal work. Some may think that's a good thing...it certainly is convenient. But, there's a shallower learning curve it seems because the h/u and or processor is doing it all for you. Sure, there are still challenges and we haven't quite gotten to a "one button setup" but, I can see it coming.


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## old school opti

for me its because of nostalgia , and quality. also ive more with 90's kicker comps 90's alpine v12's amps alpine comps highend deck and apline pre amp not to mention quality wiring than alot cars i hear around town now days.


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## SilkySlim

I had this discussion with some guys the other day. I think that one of the biggest things that came up with is an old sales lesson under promise and over deliver. A good majority of quality old school amps did this and newer speakers do this. If anything most amps at least met power. Many amps today over promise thousands of watts and some maybe do in the perfect storm @ 16v in a thunder storm with a direct hit of lightning bolt.

JK but seriously I looked at a "1000" watt class D amp that they rated @ 1-10% distortion, @ 14v, @1ohm load mono, with a S/N of 80. Now I had a friend that had to 10's in a truck in a 1ohm mono his son blew one. Sent the amp into protect. I took over an old VIII Cyclops HiFonics mono block in case his amp was toast. Found the problem disconnected the speaker fixed. He ask to check out the old amp. He immediately said that the one sub sounded better louder, tighter, deeper than his new 1000w amp. The Cyclops is only rated at 175 @ 2ohms, with .02%, a SN 100, tightly regulated to 12volts. That way he always getting his real world power. We should have been giving up at min 6db I know not huge but i can tell a major difference in 6 db normally. The amp is from 1992 has never worked on. He won't let me have my amp back. Which is fine. I understand.

That's just the state of things right now. Overstating and promising marketing screaming at you. Most seem to be looking for that immediate sale not thinking of long term customers. The race for big power numbers, low price, small size. I am not saying all new stuff is this way but it seems that they are diamonds in the rough. I will say that there is something about the feeling of getting more than you think you payed for. I will also say that the older amps with help from IASCA rules were to far I the other direction sometimes. There is something to be said that my 25watts beat the crap out of your 25watts. 

Pretty soon they will be rating amps at 24volts just to pad the numbers! Only in a big rig I guess. LOL 




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## SilkySlim

I think there is a coherent trust level that is missing from the new stuff. From warranty they make harder to get repaired more dispossible equipment today. Integrated parts that they just don't stock or won't support. Your lucky to get a true 90day warrenty. With old school amps most are more simple designs that can be fixed with parts off the shelf. Most if treated and installed properly don't need many repairs and most commonly it's just a cap job that upgrades them to last 2-3 times the life.

Plus we were lied to in a better way typically under promised and over delivered. Back when we didn't beat up these manufactures online and let them thrive and make money they took care of us and their products. They had plenty of money for R&D they sponsored the events, they helped push the industry. Now your lucky if you can get a minor sponsor of an event from an energy drink. Not to say the energy drinks don't have there place. We've all spent many nights where we could have used a couple tuning a system. Or finishing the install. I get it. 

I am personally excited and like what mosconi, illusion, morel, JL audio, and a few others are doing with demo vehicles etc. I am tired of having to read between the marketing lies to get to what the amp will really do. Most of there ratings and exaggerations are there in black and white. 

Sorry for bad grammar and sentence structure I'm not going to try and proof read because it may not do much good. I'm recovering from a surgery. 


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## DBlevel

Where you located SilkySlim?


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## PPI_GUY

Does anything feel like car audio is kinda starting over? A new age almost. 
Was thinking about this the other day. The whole thing started as companies building products in rented spaces or even garages/basements. The industry exploded and then seemed to pull back when all the major brands were sold to off shore buyers. 
Now, we are seeing a minor return to quality. Companies are introducing better OEM integration every day. DSP and processing are the hottest thing. Amplification is entering the class D era where nearly every year, sound recreation is improved and perfected while the footprint shrinks. 
Yes, there is a lot of "clutter" in car audio with all of the junk that is being dumped into the market place. But, those companies that have survived seem to have learned a valuable lesson. Quality will always trump flash and serious buyers still want innovative products. 
The big question is, will car audio survive the onslaught of quality OEM components AND the 'race to zero' being pushed by the younger, aftermarket crowd?

Meanwhile, in the background...or the under-ground if you will, old school enthusiasts and collectors continue to buy, sell and enjoy quality gear from the first age of car audio.


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## SilkySlim

I do see a return even lanzar has reintroduced almost exact replicas of the old DC Series speakers and they sound pretty good so I'm told. PG elite the design and quality of the parts is encouraging getting back to what made them big. I want to hear one though. The new re audio Usx line. Linear power etc. there is some traction I just hope it sells enough to continue. There does seem to be a bit of a reset starting. It is needed I feel. 
You can even see a return to quality cable with stinger and tspec, not this aluminum crap. I seriously saw a cable spec at 1/0 that was really 4ga all if that. So you would get much better performance from a 4-5ga copper than this fat "1/0" crap. What a joke. I really hope we get back to a point where they are pushing tech and making things sound much better. Not just getting back to where they left off. Maybe so! I can hope.


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## Claviger

I can only speak for myself as to why I chose to use "outdated" and "oldschool" amplifiers...

The market is totally saturated right now. Brand X sells a 100x4 amp at $300.00 and has a soso market reputation, brand Y sells a 100x4 amp at $550.00 and has a great reputation so people recommend the more expensive brand.

The current reality for almost all companies is that both the brand X and Y amp are built on the same board, in the same building, by the same people using almost exactly the same parts. A few things might be different such as capacitors, heat sinks etc making 1 amp "better", but honestly those are marginal differences.

The older amps/companies are known quantities, I KNOW in a good install a pre-DEI buyout A/D/S/ amp WILL sound good. I KNOW in a good install a pre-iforce Zapco WILL sound good. Those known quantities coupled with the "oldschool" used gear prices make them very attractive options.

I paid $170.00 for my Zapco DC750.2, it is fing amazing for a sub 200 dollar amp. I paid $120.00 for my A/D/S/ P450 (not P450.2) that is driving my front stage, and it is amazing. Notice it is all class A/B, and in the case of the P450 it has a high A bias, meaning yes it draws lots of power, but yes, it is smooth sounding and puts out what the manufacturer claims, and I will pay the electrical tax vs buying a brand X amp and finding that in 6 months - a year etc it dies and it is time for a new amp.

Nothing like getting $2000.00 MSRP (in the early 2000s and late 1990s dollars) worth of amp and components that are like new both visually and functionally for $420.00 lol. I would put money on both the SPL and SQ of my system vs any new 2013/2014 equipment with equal MSRP anyday, and I am confident in a blind A/B test the older equipment will win or there wil be no clear winner.


Watt/dollar ratio, sound quality, and reliability of them CANNOT be matched by some crap coming out of China/Korea no matter what brand or label it has on it PERIOD!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^lot of opinion there, but not actual facts. I'm ok with that, as long as were honest that that's what it is.


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## Claviger

Absolutely, most of my post is opinion.

The part that is not is the build house sharing and pain in the ass for the consumer to sort through what is actually a quality part and was is made to appear as a quality part but is infact built overseas in a sweatshop.

Also fact: A/D/S/ and Zapco have pedigrees in competition that are very well established and are known quality parts.

Another fact: The part about watt/dollar, sq, quality when buying old good amps vs new over seas crap cannot be matched.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Claviger said:


> Absolutely, most of my post is opinion.
> 
> The part that is not is the build house sharing and pain in the ass for the consumer to sort through what is actually a quality part and was is made to appear as a quality part but is infact built overseas in a sweatshop.
> 
> I call this lazy consumerism. People want things easy without doing any work for it.
> 
> Also fact: A/D/S/ and Zapco have pedigrees in competition that are very well established and are known quality parts.
> 
> As do JL HD's, Mosconi, Arc Audio, etc.
> 
> Another fact: The part about watt/dollar, sq, quality when buying old good amps vs new over seas crap cannot be matched.


Watt per dollar, true, sq, no, quality, again depends.


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## minbari

Claviger said:


> Absolutely, most of my post is opinion.
> 
> The part that is not is the build house sharing and pain in the ass for the consumer to sort through what is actually a quality part and was is made to appear as a quality part but is infact built overseas in a sweatshop.
> 
> Also fact: A/D/S/ and Zapco have pedigrees in competition that are very well established and are known quality parts.
> 
> Another fact: The part about watt/dollar, sq, quality when buying old good amps vs new over seas crap cannot be matched.


this is still all opinion.


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## rton20s

Clavinger, what you also have to understand is that in purchasing "old school" gear there is also risk typically not present in newer products. The components within the amplifier degrade/fail over time. In most cases, a good amp tech and a couple bills at most will take care of it. In some cases, it won't. There were some proprietary components used on old school gear that are no longer available. And this is pretty apparent when you browse the classified or old school section here on DIYMA. Those proprietary parts can be worth more than their weight in gold. 

Is this to say that choosing old school over new school is a bad thing? Absolutely not! So long as you understand what you're getting into. Your $400 purchase today could end up costing you a couple hundred more tomorrow. Or, you could get lucky and have it work for years. 

Also keep in mind that SQ is a very subjective thing. Even when doing something like the double blind testing mentioned previously, people will have varying *opinions*. Throw out the double blind testing when comparing products and then the whole argument goes out the window.


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## SilkySlim

Rton you are correct I agree with you on the risk factor. I'm not a blind old school nostalgia guy ether there are some very crappy old school stuff. I respect the old school nostalgia guys. I also know that that was the heyday per say of the car audio industry when they made the most money and that typically produces some of the best competition and designs more R&D dollars etc. I am also not saying that you can't build a great sound ride with some new school amps. I am just a fan of good audio design. I can hear many differences between amp designs I just need to put it down to paper. Which is hard and a topic for a different thread because music is a complex, dynamic signal and most of the analzers do not tell the whole story. I think of it like this tests results are painting a 2d picture of a 3d story. Enough pictures of a jist of whats going on but its not like going there and living it. Audio is an experience that can't always be measured. If you use pink noise you are not seeing how it reacts under truly dynamic loads. Like looking out the peep hole of a door. Give you an idea of who is there but not the whole clear picture. I could go on but different time and thread.

Ok I am going to get the meters out when I get some time could be six months to a year there will be many amps tested and I will chart the results. I auditioning am convinced of the differences in designs. 

I am also thinking of setting up a temp blind auditioning vehicle must likely a van where the amps will be gain matched on identical speakers and allow a double blind amp test no BS calibration, re-EQing, for each amp we are not coving up amps flaws etc. Would there be anyone interested in participating in such a test? On the east coast mainly not driving cross country for this. 

All of these power tests I see are a great start but acutal speakers are not a strait resistive load. Makes a big difference. Varying impedance levels espeacially active with no passive crossover with impedance stabilization. Your amps are left to deal with it alone. Would be a PITA but worth it if there is interest. Would love to see others opinions backed with some data. I still think the best analzers are our ears! Subjective yes, people like different sounds but we can process so much more information quickly.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

The problems I see are gain matching, not eqing, and using identical speakers, but not the same speakers. 

The tests need to be done with the exact same speakers, in the exact same location. Further, switching between amps needs to be as instantaneous as possible. Auditory memory, in all reality, sucks.

The amps need to be eq'd to the same curve, as close as possible. Then, pink noise needs to be used to set the levels the same between amps. This means multiple eq presets. This is EXTREMELY important. No one will deny that if one amp has a different frequency response, that it will sound different. But if you want to see what is better, between old school design and new school, that needs to be taken out of the equation.


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## amalmer71

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> No one will deny that if one amp has a different frequency response, that it will sound different. But if you want to see what is better, between old school design and new school, that needs to be taken out of the equation.


However, based on the discussions which preceded your comment, wouldn't that defeat the entire purpose of the test? 

I.E., it's all about "run what you brung".


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Not at all. If we know the frequency response is different, than we can definitively say that they will sound different without even needing to listen. In other words, frequency response over rules everything else. An amp could have 0.0001% thd, and sound worse than an amp that has 1% thd, but still sound worse if the frequency response is worse. That said, it was common in the old school days to have a house curve built into amplifiers. If someone prefers that curve, they might like it more than a flat amplifier, even though the flat amplifier accurately reproduces the music.


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## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Not at all. If we know the frequency response is different, than we can definitively say that they will sound different without even needing to listen. In other words, frequency response over rules everything else. An amp could have 0.0001% thd, and sound worse than an amp that has 1% thd, but still sound worse if the frequency response is worse. That said, it was common in the old school days to have a house curve built into amplifiers. If someone prefers that curve, they might like it more than a flat amplifier, even though the flat amplifier accurately reproduces the music.


^^^The Punch.^^^


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## amalmer71

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Not at all. If we know the frequency response is different, than we can definitively say that they will sound different without even needing to listen. In other words, frequency response over rules everything else. An amp could have 0.0001% thd, and sound worse than an amp % thd, but still sound worse if the frequency response is worse. That said, it was common in the old school days to have a house curve built into amplifiers. If someone prefers that curve, they might like it more than a flat amplifier, even though the flat amplifier accurately reproduces the music.


I get what you're saying and I agree. AAMOF, I've experienced this. I have two Punch 200ix amps and had one hooked up to two P3D410 (10" Punch 3, 4ohm dvc) subs and switched between one of those amps and a Powerbass ASA800.2. The 200ix has a bass and treble knob centered at 40Hz and 12kHz. Those were set to flat (all the way down). The real numbers on that amp say 400 watts rms @ 4 ohms w/13.6vdc (BigD can verify that if I'm wrong). The Powerbass is rated at the same power but I think at 14.4vdc. 

Anyway, I had to turn up the bass boost on the Powerbass (45Hz) to get it to match the intensity of the bass from the 200ix. Regardless, the 200ix just sounded better. The bass was much more accurate and lively. It had more of a musical reproduction than the Powerbass.

Whether or not that was caused from some internal setting of different levels of select frequencies, it still sounded better. I also have the lpf in my head unit set to 60Hz so I'd be skeptical of believing an internal EQ bias caused that.


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## TXwrxWagon

I'm actually a hybrid. I want new school-ish head unit and processing, but give me Zed or Zef or old school alpine amplifiers. Old-old PG, PPI, sound stream, even Orion amps. 

My power needs to be LOTS and A/B... Hmmmm maybe explains why my home audio is powered by an "outdated" Yamaha integrated DSPA-1..... Who'd a thunk.

Speakers are a whole different ball game... Different thread...

Rob


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## Darth SQ

TXwrxWagon said:


> I'm actually a hybrid. I want new school-ish head unit and processing, but give me Zed or Zef or old school alpine amplifiers. Old-old PG, PPI, sound stream, even Orion amps.
> 
> My power needs to be LOTS and A/B... Hmmmm maybe explains why my home audio is powered by an "outdated" Yamaha integrated DSPA-1..... Who'd a thunk.
> 
> Speakers are a whole different ball game... Different thread...
> 
> Rob


Ok...that's just creepy how you and I parallel each other........right down to the os Yamaha home amp.......(A700).



Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## oldschoolbeats

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Because it's all just so f'n cool!
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR



God that table full is gorgeous, do you have a picture/pictures of your whole collection?


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## Darth SQ

oldschoolbeats said:


> God that table full is gorgeous, do you have a picture/pictures of your whole collection?


Thank you. 
Just what's in these pics are all I have collected PPI wise. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## SilkySlim

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The problems I see are gain matching, not eqing, and using identical speakers, but not the same speakers.
> 
> The tests need to be done with the exact same speakers, in the exact same location. Further, switching between amps needs to be as instantaneous as possible. Auditory memory, in all reality, sucks.
> 
> The amps need to be eq'd to the same curve, as close as possible. Then, pink noise needs to be used to set the levels the same between amps. This means multiple eq presets. This is EXTREMELY important. No one will deny that if one amp has a different frequency response, that it will sound different. But if you want to see what is better, between old school design and new school, that needs to be taken out of the equation.


I get what you are saying about the quick changing etc. I have setup a very similar setup and here is just my opinion on the matter. I have now compared, auditioned 100's of old school & new school amps in a neutral on two different sets of high end speakers. I come from an old school mind set of we should do as little to the signal possible to get to our achieved sound. (the processing power and tuning ability available now is and does make an awesome difference in the right hands I just believe in using as little of it as possible) Now that being said many people hear the response curve that you can alter by EQing. But EQing can put added strain and clipping at certain freq. to get a match. Doing this can exaggerate weaknesses or advantages in amps. I get the argument that amps make a minimal difference after tuning but don't agree. When you tune you are altering the original signal and harmonics. 
I want the signal/system to be as pure as it can be. So I like to pick amps that match the curve that I'm trying to achieve first. The amps curve will affect you curve pre tuning response curve no matter what. That can't be denied. I prefer most old school curves personally. 
It is amazing to me the difference in power can make I have noticed over an 3db per octave difference in extension just in some of the larger model amps in the same line. I have also noticed many of the high current competition designed amps have many properties advantages on high demand subs especially. I also noticed a difference in control mainly in mid-bass and lower freq. 
I have also notice the amp designs handle different speaker loads differently as well. While some amp designs sound great with certain speaker loads can sound like garbage or noticeably with others but not as much with car specific drivers. (mostly exotic ribbon, electrostatic, etc.) 

So it is my opinion to get close then to the response you are looking for then tune for environment. The environment you can only change so much but that's where the power of processing helps.


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## Theronh357

soundhertz said:


> I always get all warm and fuzzy thinking about old school days. For me it started in the late '80s. I just love the stuff. It seemed to me that it was more about good quality, regardless of price. Everything is disposable these days. Sad.((
> That being said, I am almost ready to install my system. Only two pieces that are not "old school", are a Pioneer P99rs and a set of Legatia L8s that are already in my doors. Otherwise its AVI components, 4 Orion NT amps and IDW18s bringing up the rear.
> I need a cigarette. ;-)





TXwrxWagon said:


> I'm actually a hybrid. I want new school-ish head unit and processing, but give me Zed or Zef or old school alpine amplifiers. Old-old PG, PPI, sound stream, even Orion amps.
> 
> My power needs to be LOTS and A/B... Hmmmm maybe explains why my home audio is powered by an "outdated" Yamaha integrated DSPA-1..... Who'd a thunk.
> 
> Speakers are a whole different ball game... Different thread...
> 
> Rob


Recently opting to use a _hybrid_ mix of components my car; I've based the strategy of the build, on a presumed _synergy_ between the _old_...
*Butler/Phaze Audio:
TD 475 [running front-stage tweet's & mid's]
TD 750 [running bass components]
LD-2 [line-driver, connected to TD-750]

...and the _new_.
*Pioneer P99RS
*Focal Utopia Be: (1) No. 7 kit [front-stage]
(2) 6w2 [rear fill]
(2) 13ws [bass]
(1) 21wx [sub-bass]
*Hertz HDP 4 [running front & rear midbass components]
*JBL-a5001 [running subwoofer]


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## Nismo

As you can see in my signature, I've opted for a hybrid as well. New deck/source, as I need the BT phone integration, and wanted to leave the CD's at home.

For amps, I'm all old school 2004 Kicker. I still have some things to iron out, but the amps are solid, and well built. The MSRP for just my amps 10 years ago is somewhere well north of $3k. I've got $900 in them total.

For speakers, I'm an XBL2 guy, so I have an original Brahma, which was supposedly blown when I bought it, but just had a broken terminal. For everything else, I'm running new school. My Exodus Anarchys aren't even here yet, but I just paid for shipping. For the mids, I'm using the Faitals, which I hope work well...and I'm debating on tweets.

My setup represents the things I've loved/lusted after over the years, with all the capability of the new.

I hope it all works out, because my wife isn't happy at the prospect of me continuing to spend more money on it...as I'm not done yet!

Eric


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## Mc4life2769

fuzzcar said:


> Why do people do "Old school builds" using old 1990's era discontinued gear?
> 
> Apparently there is a bit of a market for this old stuff in good shape, but I'm not exactly sure why.


Because they can. Why do you want to have the newest smartphone or iPhone? It’s a want. Plus most of the older stuff will out perform, sound better, look nicer and over all be better the. Anything that’s new on the market.


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## Mr12voltwires

For me, it's nostalgic. I installed professionally in the '80's and '90's, then worked for a 12V manufacturer until the early 2000's when the industry really pooped out (_read: no longer profitable_). Alpine, Boston Acoustics, and a/d/s were the big brands in the region I worked in. In 2018 I installed an a/d/s PQ10 and Alpine 3552 in a coworker's '17 Mustang GT, with current Alpine Type-R speakers. The 25+ year old amps worked flawlessly and sound phenominal.

12V in the '80s & '90s was also very profitable, so engineering budgets were higher. That, combined with the poor quality of OEM back then, SQ was a huge selling point. 

Nowadays, the OEM stuff isn't that bad, and most people are more interested in the convenience features over sound quality.

Like other members' posts, back 'in the day', it was easy to tell good equipment from bad. Working on old cars was easier, and a lot more fun back then too.


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