# Value of "old school" equipment; past, present, and future



## M2323 (Nov 9, 2009)

Hello and let me first say that although I am new to this forum, I am not new to forums in general and did try to search this topic here before posting. I also hope I placed this in the correct forum since I don't believe this is a "dumb question" that anyone can answer. 

I'm sure like a lot of folks in this world, car audio for me was a hobby forgotten as I aged, got married, started a family, bought a home, etc. I have in the last few months been reengaged in it and am a little surprised (and delighted) that I was involved in it during the heyday (mid 90's), as I understand it anyway. 

I'm just curious how prices for the good stuff from that era have evolved in the last, say 5 years, and where those of you who have been following such things and are knowledgeable see the future of them going? I was very surprised actually that so many people collect this stuff, which seems to be amps mostly (as seen here in "old school showoff thread"). 

So as to not generalize too much, lets take this example. There is a NIB Phoenix Gold MS2250 (not mine) on ebay selling for $1400. What did this cost new, 5 years ago, and what will it be worth in 10/20 years?


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## ace_s2k (Oct 10, 2009)

I bought and sold an Xtant X1001 amp for ~$400 on ebay a few years ago. I used it for over a year, then I sold it for what I paid. Had I kept using it until today, it looks like I could still get something like $300, 4-5 years down the road from when I let it go. 

Speakers and head units I don't know about, but amps seem to hold their value extremely well after the initial drop.


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## Pillow (Nov 14, 2009)

Look at the joker selling that PG amp as well... Real value is 500-600. That seller is a known crook research it here.

I think the "made in USA" amps that were of good quality seem to hold their value very well. The newer overseas products I do not think will hold up very well for resale no matter how exciting they are today. Also the "cheater" amps or huge board models seem to get the most $. 

As for head units, the technology is constantly changing and a unit that is only a few years old can be completely outdated with little value. Similar story with speakers, especially subs. 

For the record I love the old school amps  I horde a few myself. I still have my old RF Punch 40DSM that rocked an entire car system and didn't even get hot. That is quality and power. But back then speakers and subs did not need 10K watts to sound good! LOL Buuuurrrrp


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## dbiegel (Oct 15, 2006)

Yeah, it's really a matter of balancing new technologies vs. the gradual cheapening up/worsening quality of new products vs. the old school ones.

I can't help but cringe when I see more and more new amplifiers released into the market that have nothing special about them. In many cases, you can buy an old school amp which is far better made for less money than [the latest season's mediocre amp]. 

However, my guess is that we'll see some significant technology shift in amplifiers in the next few years. The biggest one I can think of is a widespread adoption of digital or at least balanced inputs (with corresponding digital or balanced outs on aftermarket head units). Hell, unbalanced RCA connections in a car and their related issues might be "old school" in 5-10 years. All it takes is one major manufacturer to try this, and everyone else will copy the trend. We all know how that goes.


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## slomofo (Mar 30, 2009)

there is some joker on ebay trying to sell some old Rockford Series one amps for 260 or so a piece. kinda silly since that's what they retailed for back in the day. i don't care if they're new, they are cheap. I have seen Soundstream DaVinci (the real ones) on ebay for 700 or so with the blt4. this is an extreme value considering cost on these was like 1600 or so. I find that speakers in like new or new shape go for reasonable on ebay depending on what they are. I am currently buying some midbasses that when new went for 250 for the set. i will probably win with a bid of 45bux. i've picked up soundstream spl mids for 40 bux shipped brand new, i got a Focal 6" Utopia sub for 50bux. there are good deals to be had out there, just have to wait.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Pillow said:


> Look at the joker selling that PG amp as well... Real value is 500-600. That seller is a known crook research it here.
> 
> I think the "made in USA" amps that were of good quality seem to hold their value very well. The newer overseas products I do not think will hold up very well for resale no matter how exciting they are today. Also the "cheater" amps or huge board models seem to get the most $.
> 
> ...



The fan shroud on that PG is kinda on the rare side and to fin a NIB one, doesnt happen all the time. Those shrouds were only sold to PG team members. The $1400 might be kinda though, those amps reatiled for near a grand without the shroud, back in the days of a $1/watt


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## jpswanberg (Jan 14, 2009)

In all honesty, the value of something is whatever the other guy is willing to part with. Just look at ebay and the dishonesty (lies) that are spouted over how good, unique, valuable etc. a particular item is in an attempt to drive up the price someone else is willing to pay. JPS


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

I see the market falling out. In a few years, we will likely have pure digital pathways like the ODR once they become more affordable. Old school amps will be novel relics. You will still have some collectors, but I don't think many people will actually use them in vehicles. They will be noisy and inefficient compared to future amps.


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## mellowbob (Jul 2, 2009)

Are there pure digital to amp solutions (DAC built in) currently?


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## DaveRulz (Jun 22, 2006)

dbiegel said:


> However, my guess is that we'll see some significant technology shift in amplifiers in the next few years. The biggest one I can think of is a widespread adoption of digital or at least balanced inputs (with corresponding digital or balanced outs on aftermarket head units).


You really think widespread adoption of balanced signal is going to happen? My first headunit was a Kenwood eXcellon mask deadhead (PS-907? something like that I think it was a 1997 or 1998 model) that had the option to switch from 6 channel unbalanced(Stereo F/R/S) to 3 channel (L/R/S) balanced signal. If you used it with the Kenwood PS amps you could run a balanced signal through RCAs, or you could wire an adapter to go from RCA to XLR, mini XLR, whatever connector was nec, it was all outlined in the manual. It never caught on. At the time, Kenwood was a premier manufacturer. Zapco, Soundstream and others I'm sure have all offered balanced signal transfer, but it still has not caught on. I'm just curious what makes you think it's going to catch on now?


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## jonnyanalog (Nov 14, 2007)

Mooble said:


> I see the market falling out. In a few years, we will likely have pure digital pathways like the ODR once they become more affordable. Old school amps will be novel relics. You will still have some collectors, but I don't think many people will actually use them in vehicles. They will be noisy and inefficient compared to future amps.


I don't think thats true at all. Look at muscle cars vs. todays cars.
There will always be people who want the nostalgia.


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## dodgerblue (Jul 14, 2005)

So as to not generalize too much, lets take this example. There is a NIB Phoenix Gold MS2250 (not mine) on ebay selling for $1400. What did this cost new, 5 years ago, and what will it be worth in 10/20 years?[/QUOTE]

The rtl cost was 1500.00 in the 96 directory ,wich was second most expensive in the lineup behind the fas = 2,000 . That is -like others mentioned - without the fan shrowd.


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

Old school stuff holds some value but, on average I would say it is only a fraction of what some pieces cost when new. For example, you can pickup a nice Orion HCCA 250 for $200-$250, or even a PPI ART A600 for about the same price. Both of these amps were much more that that when new. That means that they have depreciated in value quite a bit over a 10-15 year period. Will they ever be worth nothing? No probably not. But, we may be on the downside of a old school gear bubble.


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## dbiegel (Oct 15, 2006)

DaveRulz said:


> You really think widespread adoption of balanced signal is going to happen? My first headunit was a Kenwood eXcellon mask deadhead (PS-907? something like that I think it was a 1997 or 1998 model) that had the option to switch from 6 channel unbalanced(Stereo F/R/S) to 3 channel (L/R/S) balanced signal. If you used it with the Kenwood PS amps you could run a balanced signal through RCAs, or you could wire an adapter to go from RCA to XLR, mini XLR, whatever connector was nec, it was all outlined in the manual. It never caught on. At the time, Kenwood was a premier manufacturer. Zapco, Soundstream and others I'm sure have all offered balanced signal transfer, but it still has not caught on. I'm just curious what makes you think it's going to catch on now?


Let's see... digital sources are now widespread. How many head units in 1997 had ipod integration or built-in hard drives? Much cheaper to produce digital and balanced tech these days, many OEMs are now starting to use them, and all it takes is one of the major aftermarket head unit manufacturers to do it and everyone else will jump on the bandwagon. Installers will help push it to avoid having to worry about hiss/noise issues. Not to mention the people that will buy them just because "dude, check this out, its all digital bro, you gotta have it!!111".

If the 2011 generation of Eclipse or Alpine head units offers all-digital circuitry, digital outs, and amps with digital in (so you can have full volume control etc. from the head unit) and high quality DACs, wouldn't you strongly consider upgrading? I know I would...

On a related note, I finally got my replacement H650 (first one developed a noise issue). I've talked with a several car audio engineers about it and other processors and found out there are sooo many problems in car audio due to RCA inputs and outputs, particularly with different impedances of equipment (like head units) and ground loops causing problems in the circuitry etc... Pioneer pico fuse problems come to mind? Anyway, the more I find out the more I hate RCA's for a car. When I reinstall the Imprint I'll actually be using the speaker outputs from my head unit... they said it works much better connected that way (!) and is much less likely to have any problems in the future..


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## ACRucrazy (Mar 13, 2007)

Mooble said:


> I see the market falling out. In a few years, we will likely have pure digital pathways like the ODR once they become more affordable. Old school amps will be novel relics. You will still have some collectors, but I don't think many people will actually use them in vehicles. They will be noisy and inefficient compared to future amps.


I partially agree with this.
I agree that future will be digital, low current compact devices. I am excited to see it. High current monster amps just wont fit most of the "lifestyle" and design of newer vehicles. It will have to be low current efficient setups.

However the "old school" stuff while most of the "junk" that is pushed out the door in masses today will be pretty much worthless. I think the rare, very quality "classics" will at least hold some value. There will always be a desire for that.

New ODR... drool would love to the new stuff a go.


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## tomtomjr (Apr 24, 2008)

Pillow said:


> As for head units, the technology is constantly changing and a unit that is only a few years old can be completely outdated with little value. Similar story with speakers, especially subs.


Back up on that one. A lot of the shaft cassette units and even some of the early CD units, later DIN cassette units, are bringing a lot more than what they are new. 
For instance, a little while back, I sold a Pioneer KE5100 for $690 on Ebay. Then a broke Nak TD-1200II for $400. (working they bring a lot more, new was $1200, and new in box still brings about that) ... The shaft units seem to hold their value the best, next is early CD units (790* series alpine, Early Sony cd units, early Kenwood cd units, ect) They can bring in some cases more than the new price. Where as the shaft cassette decks can bring even more depending on the model. Mainly for restoration cars, and collectors. 
As for speakers, the cheaper ones do not hold any real value. But the ADS, Boston, Canton, ect, bring top dollar in most cases. Look at the JBL 6 x9's. I have seen them sell for $200+ needing recone, and $700+ for new in box ones.


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## phildog33 (Aug 22, 2009)

what about tubes


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## M2323 (Nov 9, 2009)

I think something else to take into account that perhaps may be overlooked are the prices with inflation taken into account. Think about what things cost 10-15 years ago. So to say that an amp costs $250 today and it was $400 new means its really has depreciated more than we think at first glance and is in essence even cheaper.

Also, I'm not surprised to see some things (like the head units mentioned above) selling for good money. To me, its just like why muscle cars are so expensive. They are, by todays standards, dinosaurs but they started something new in their day. Someone here had said that we are on the downtrend of value going forward. I have to disagree. The interesting, rare stuff (something like a Frank Amp N' Stein) will just get rarer and more expensive as time goes on.


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## tomtomjr (Apr 24, 2008)

M2323 said:


> I think something else to take into account that perhaps may be overlooked are the prices with inflation taken into account. Think about what things cost 10-15 years ago. So to say that an amp costs $250 today and it was $400 new means its really has depreciated more than we think at first glance and is in essence even cheaper.
> 
> Also, I'm not surprised to see some things (like the head units mentioned above) selling for good money. To me, its just like why muscle cars are so expensive. They are, by todays standards, dinosaurs but they started something new in their day. Someone here had said that we are on the downtrend of value going forward. I have to disagree. The interesting, rare stuff (something like a Frank Amp N' Stein) will just get rarer and more expensive as time goes on.


Forgot about adding in inflation. Didn't take that into the equation. I stand corrected.


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

M2323 said:


> I think something else to take into account that perhaps may be overlooked are the prices with inflation taken into account. Think about what things cost 10-15 years ago. So to say that an amp costs $250 today and it was $400 new means its really has depreciated more than we think at first glance and is in essence even cheaper.
> 
> Also, I'm not surprised to see some things (like the head units mentioned above) selling for good money. To me, its just like why muscle cars are so expensive. They are, by todays standards, dinosaurs but they started something new in their day. Someone here had said that we are on the downtrend of value going forward. I have to disagree. The interesting, rare stuff (something like a Frank Amp N' Stein) will just get rarer and more expensive as time goes on.


Excellent point on inflation. 
Another issue is that the market for old school equipment is constantly shrinking in my opinion. Everyday there are fewer and fewer people interested in trying to find a nice, unmodded 20 year old (or more) amp. Their interests and priorities have changed or maybe they are happy with their factory stereo in their new car. Add to that, the majority of the 18-24 demographic probably only responds to what they see and hear pushed on them at their local stereo shop, what their friends are using or even worse, what they can afford. Old school car audio is a niche area already for the most part and many collectors or casual users end up simply trading or selling to each other.


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## rmenergy (Feb 15, 2009)

Some of you are right in saying that o/s equipment will keep depreciating. Most of those will be the Orion's, PPI, Macs, Audisons, SS, RF, Coustic DR type of equipment that younger people of the time lusted for but only the slightly older could afford. I do believe that there are a few brands or at least pieces of equipment that will hold their value. My bnib Monolithic Class A 4ch listed for around $900 back in the day. I have never seen one for sale on ebay, but would have to guess that it could fetch anywhere from $1300-1500 seeing that the smaller or more common 1 & 2 channel amps (like my PA2000M) are regularly bringing in $1k when they listed for less (say $500-900). 

All in all, I like the fact that the price has come down on most of that equipment. It has allowed me to pick up some really nice older SS, US Amps, & LP equipment to hookup my wife with. I always wanted everything that I have now when I was younger, I just had to choose which ONE amp to get, now I can have them all. LOL.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

The old school relics are only worth what people are willing to pay for them. 

I even fell for the nostalgia bit remembering a certain brand of amplifier that I couldn't afford when was in high school. Unfortunately, those relics didn't work in my particular modern day application and were sold off for an overall loss of $26. Regardless, it is funny how one's mind remembers something as being "the sh*t" back in the day only to turn out to be GARBAGE by today's standards.


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## Pillow (Nov 14, 2009)

I think there will always be a demand for SQ gear no matter what the age. The power ratings are really what give the newer stuff a leg up. Granted what OS stuff used to power subs is now driving front components and a bank of mids! 

In my case the OS gear works for a super clean install because of the high tech features of the HU. Built in x-over, EQ, 6 channels, blah blah. Back in the day you would have a **** ton of room devoted just for signal processing gear! Remember the huge CD changers in the truck! Thank you Ipod integration with Bluetooth. 

If the truth of the OS gear keeps getting preached to the young guys I think there will be demand. 

As for "A" class amps and line leveling look at what happened to Adcom. Way ahead of the game, but never really caught on. I think because of the extra equipment involved. Also it was hard to integrate with other non-Adcom gear.

IMO OS gear is still at a discount. Show me some new gear for the same price that can perform as well.


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## Pillow (Nov 14, 2009)

>it is funny how one's mind remembers something as being "the sh*t" back in the day only to turn out to be GARBAGE by today's standards.<

You might have to elaborate on this a bit...


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## MACS (Oct 3, 2007)

I would attribute the current decline for old school as another victim of the sagging economy. Most of us that buy that gear are blue collar types and have been hit hard by the recession. 

I've been into classic cars and other collectibles most of my life and have seen this happen many times. Car audio is a cyclical hobby no different than classic cars, coins, antiques, etc.. When the economy is doing well people buy and prices go up. The smart collectors buy on weakness and hold :greedy:. 

There will always be a market for vintage electronics......always!


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## kapone (Sep 22, 2009)

Price of old school equipment (and lots of similar things, like antique cars, any "hobbyist" items) almost always swings proportional to the rise and fall of the DOW and jobless numbers.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Pillow said:


> >it is funny how one's mind remembers something as being "the sh*t" back in the day only to turn out to be GARBAGE by today's standards.<
> 
> You might have to elaborate on this a bit...


Linear Power of course. I always lusted after those amplifiers but could never afford them when I was in high school.

Well, I purchased 14 of them over a 2 year period, and with the exception of the more recent offerings, like the LP150, DPS500, 2.2 HV, and 4.1 HVS amps, the older amplifiers were garbage. They were horribly inefficient, barely made rated power whereas some were shy of the mark, colored the sound, and had horrific noise issues. Then to add insult to injury, they were the highest priced of the old school gear that I own. Another down side is MANY of them purchased off of eBay had problems and required some form of repair or another.

Unfortunately for me, I let nostalgia override common sense and that all came crumbling down quickly. I think the first disappointment was watching a TIPS modified 1502IQ that I had a total of $335 in outperformed by a $149 Cerwin Vega EXL-400.4. Maybe outperformed is the wrong choice of words, but, the Cerwin Vega was cheaper, and had ZERO noise compared to the 1502IQ that was expensive, had just been in for a repair/mod, and was extremely noisy. I even replaced that 1502IQ with a TIPS modified LP150 that I had a total of $190 in, and it was WAY better with regards to the noticeable noise level! Someone from Japan gave me $400 plus shipping for that LP150.

The next disappointment was watching a regular 5002 @ 8 ohms mono get outperformed by a Lunar L2125 @ 2 ohms and a Clarion DPX1851 @ 2 ohms on the same sub (DVC 4 in series for LP, parallel for the others). The 5002 cost me $475 shipped whereas the L2125 was $225 used and the DPX1851 was $149 BNIB, authorized. Noise was not a factor here, but current draw was. I had two different friends measure current draw on that LP 5002 and one found it to pull 85 amps to make 500 watts RMS whereas the other said it drew 90 amps. Regardless, the volt meter in my Mustang would move like a reverse VU meter to the beat of the music with that 5002 whereas the other 2 amplifiers barely make it move at all. 

Now, will my other amplifiers still work 8 to 17 years from now? Who knows. On the other hand, I plan on using my equipment versus letting it sit in a closet or climate controlled storage unit.


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## rmenergy (Feb 15, 2009)

I never did remember LP being the "end all be all" back in the day. I always remember them loosing in the CA&E comparo's. The shop that I worked @ back then quite selling them because the owner said they were "junk". I never personally thought that, just thought they were overpriced for what you got. The SS Reference series of the day I thought was hands down a better amp (although the multi-channel versions did have problems). SS was our big seller, followed by Coustic, Nak, Pioneer, Sony, PPI/LP (PPI replaced LP in the lineup).

Now I did pick up an LP amp about 6months ago, a 652IQ. This is because it is in perfect condition, works well, fits the application (powering some 5.25" rear door speakers in my wife's upcoming install), and I liked the color. I know darn well that it probably doesn't produce even rated power @ 12V, but I don't mind, I paid $40 for it and have 400 watts of Series 1 SS D200's up front to cover the majority of the system (wife couldn't let go with rear fill). So like I said earlier, you can have it all nowadays.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

rmenergy said:


> I never did remember LP being the "end all be all" back in the day. I always remember them loosing in the CA&E comparo's. The shop that I worked @ back then quite selling them because the owner said they were "junk". I never personally thought that, just thought they were overpriced for what you got. The SS Reference series of the day I thought was hands down a better amp (although the multi-channel versions did have problems). SS was our big seller, followed by Coustic, Nak, Pioneer, Sony, PPI/LP (PPI replaced LP in the lineup).


After my negative experience with LP from the earlier models up to the IQ series, I agree with the shop owner. 



rmenergy said:


> Now I did pick up an LP amp about 6months ago, a 652IQ. This is because it is in perfect condition, works well, fits the application (powering some 5.25" rear door speakers in my wife's upcoming install), and I liked the color. I know darn well that it probably doesn't produce even rated power @ 12V, but I don't mind, I paid $40 for it and have 400 watts of Series 1 SS D200's up front to cover the majority of the system (wife couldn't let go with rear fill). So like I said earlier, you can have it all nowadays.


I believe my Linear Power 652I measured in at 22 watts RMS per channel just prior to clipping on an Oscilloscope with 14.5 volts of input. 

Regardless, there are deals to be had out there if one is in the right place at the right time. I picked up a pair of Orion HCCA 225 Digital Reference amplifiers for $200 and I am using one in my fiancee's vehicle with a servo unit to power her subwoofer. I also picked up an older, 2 ohm stable, Rockford Fosgate Power 1000 bd for $50. Granted, the Power 1000 isn't what I would call "old school" but it was a GREAT deal from a friend of mine.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

M2323 said:


> Hello and let me first say that although I am new to this forum, I am not new to forums in general and did try to search this topic here before posting. I also hope I placed this in the correct forum since I don't believe this is a "dumb question" that anyone can answer.
> 
> I'm sure like a lot of folks in this world, car audio for me was a hobby forgotten as I aged, got married, started a family, bought a home, etc. I have in the last few months been reengaged in it and am a little surprised (and delighted) that I was involved in it during the heyday (mid 90's), as I understand it anyway.
> 
> ...


It's really hard to compete with the sound of the new all machine made PDX's.

I'd throw my Monolithics away, now that class D and China have entered the picture.

You don't need a new battery in your car even, The class D full rangers are the only amps winning IASCA, MECA. etc..,

They are just so efficient, no turn on pops or shut off pops.

I can't wait to get a really nice car with solar panels on it and 3-Wheels [ No old School muscle Cars for Me ].

Think Green ! save the enviorment [ please don't smoke and pick up someone elses garbage too ]

tweet, facebook and be happy


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## rmenergy (Feb 15, 2009)

a$$hole said:


> It's really hard to compete with the sound of the new all machine made PDX's.
> 
> I'd throw my Monolithics away, now that class D and China have entered the picture.
> 
> ...


I got the sarcasm, but FYI: the Monolithic PA2000M (240x1) has a PWM power supply. And that was circa '87.


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## Pillow (Nov 14, 2009)

Well I cannot argue with that story! You did all the due diligence to get the LPs right on... And did not see the fruit of your labor.

I always lusted after PG M series amps, AVI speakers, and Adcom amps. But back in the day ran RF Punch amps and speakers because they were more affordable. The RF speakers were trash, but the amps were good.


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

I was never a LP fan 'back in the day' ...but the Old School Nakamichi PA300/400 amps are still superior in SQ to 99% of what is on the market today. They are not megawattage amps ...and they are not super efficient ...but where it counts (SQ) ...they are hard to beat. Plus ...you can still buy them in nice shape for <$150 if you are patient.

>^..^<


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## finfinder (Apr 15, 2006)

Pillow said:


> Well I cannot argue with that story! You did all the due diligence to get the LPs right on... And did not see the fruit of your labor.
> 
> I always lusted after PG M series amps, AVI speakers, and Adcom amps. But back in the day ran RF Punch amps and speakers because they were more affordable. The RF speakers were trash, but the amps were good.


My experience with old school amps goes like this. I've never had an old school amp fail. My first amp was a PG M25; always sounded damn fine and still works. I wanted more power so I moved to RF Punch amps and even bought a few more as backups. The backups are still sitting NIB in the closet 16 years later. I've got a NIB Adcom in the closet too. Never got around to it. My Punch amps have survived multiple systems without so much as a whimper. I've been running the sub amp at 2 ohms mono for years. Nada to complain about. Would I buy new RF stuff.... hmmm ..that's another story.

I've run Xtants, Alpine, Tubedrivers and PPI art series in other cars with the same result, no failures. Old school can be very reliable.

Modern mass produced consumer electronics from the Asian rim are built to be cheap and disposable. Manufacturers have convinced us that newer has to be better so that they can make the next sale. Not always true. 

The recent class D designs are the only real significant advance I've seen in amplifier design in the last 20 years. My only question is do they sound better or are they just more efficient. 

I remember the forum boner that folks had for the Alpine PDX's, then suddenly the romance was over as quickly as it started. Folks were fascinated with their size and not their sound. The newest JL HD's seem to offer more promise. We'll see.


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## bamelanc (Sep 13, 2009)

I have only had the HD amps for a month or so now and I think they sound great. Unfortunately...or maybe fortunately, I haven't heard anything else in quite a while. I have listened to amps in the car audio shop, but not on these speakers and definitely not in a car or truck. Just getting back in to the game after being out for 3 or 4 for years, but I think they sound pretty good. 

In the past, I had a RF Punch 400.4 and a 60.2 and I know I abused those amps...the held up. I used a 501bd, that I still have, and it never flinched. I would still be using the rockford amps if the fit in my truck without a bunch of fabbing.


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