# Car PC for Dummies? NON-DIY destoyers...



## AWC

I want to have a discussion about Car PC's in a way that won't make me want to jam a pencil in my eye...

I realize the infinite amount of information on this subject. Since I (apparently) suffer from ADHD and know very little about computers I want to start a thread geared towards Audiophile Car PC for the computer dummy.


I want to approach this in a way that isn't extremely intimidating. One way to do this is to avaoid building my own computer from scratch. If this is going to work, I think keeping it simple may be the best way. So I think a Mac-mini or the like is a great idea. 

Here are some points to discuss:

1. Small, stable, powerful enough, resiliant computers that would do well in a car environment. IOW, Mac-mini competitors and wannabes.

2. I have alot of space to build a PC, is it that hard? Should I consider it? Or just keep it simple and use the mac mini?

3. Soundcards. Most soundcards have the small 3.25 mm jack. How do you combat this? Are there true audiophile soundcards with 8 outputs? I know there are lots of options out there. Are they more prone to picking up engine noises than processors built for the car? There is a link at the bottom for a pro-audio interface. It has balanced ins and outs and the amount of flexibility could be astounding.... will it work? I own it is why I ask...

4. Software. Are there any autotuning programs, like Audyssey, that can be used on a carputer?

I know alot of this has been covered but I am looking for more of a newbie-centric way of looking at it. A good conversation can shed lots of light on a complicated subject.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/prod...bit96kHz-FireWire-Recording-System?sku=184133


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## ehkewley

I only have limited knowledge of this, so I'll try to stick to the points that I might be able to add to.

First of all, the pre-fab computer (mac / clone mini) might be fine for most car audio peeps, but might really go against the SQ / DIY types who wish to have more control over their sound.

These prefab units have very little space for expansion, and most often the internal sound units are crappy and not really built for SQ (cheap components).

You could always go with a firewire external sound unit, but that's adding more complexity and yet another unit that may or may not need an external power source. That unit only has two channels, so you'd have to daisy-chain several more for your separate channel outs. The setup could get messy quick unless you had an external crossover bridge.

as for question #3 Most of those soundblaster live or surround cards IMO are not really suited for car audio. The units are still cheaply made (with those run-of-the-mill dacs) and usually add pops during power on / off. I've not had the greatest experience with them.

There are high quality audio cards out there however. M-audio makes some excellent products that have up to 10 line inputs / outputs at once. I personally own the m-audio 2496 card, which has 4 inputs 4 output channels, the 24bit 96khz dac, and it works flawlessly. I never have had a problem with it and use it quite often for amateur home recording.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile2496-main.html

These soundcards also make use of an ASIO feature, which allows for very very low latency times. This low latency allows the sound software to talk to the cards at a low level, bypassing the OS route which adds latency. Lastly the cards work on mac / pc, and you can stack the cards to add more channels if you need them.

The downside is most of these cards require a decent sized computer case, and I'm not sure the mac mini could fit one of these.

My argument is, there is really no simple prefab system (that I know about) that would allow for expandability or contain high quality components that would match or rival car audio sound processors.


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## AWC

ehkewley said:


> I only have limited knowledge of this, so I'll try to stick to the points that I might be able to add to.
> 
> First of all, the pre-fab computer (mac / clone mini) might be fine for most car audio peeps, but might really go against the SQ / DIY types who wish to have more control over their sound.
> 
> These prefab units have very little space for expansion, and most often the internal sound units are crappy and not really built for SQ (cheap components).
> 
> You could always go with a firewire external sound unit, but that's adding more complexity and yet another unit that may or may not need an external power source. That unit only has two channels, so you'd have to daisy-chain several more for your separate channel outs. The setup could get messy quick unless you had an external crossover bridge.
> 
> as for question #3 Most of those soundblaster live or surround cards IMO are not really suited for car audio. The units are still cheaply made (with those run-of-the-mill dacs) and usually add pops during power on / off. I've not had the greatest experience with them.
> 
> There are high quality audio cards out there however. M-audio makes some excellent products that have up to 10 line inputs / outputs at once. I personally own the m-audio 2496 card, which has 4 inputs 4 output channels, the 24bit 96khz dac, and it works flawlessly. I never have had a problem with it and use it quite often for amateur home recording.
> http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile2496-main.html
> 
> These soundcards also make use of an ASIO feature, which allows for very very low latency times. This low latency allows the sound software to talk to the cards at a low level, bypassing the OS route which adds latency. Lastly the cards work on mac / pc, and you can stack the cards to add more channels if you need them.
> 
> The downside is most of these cards require a decent sized computer case, and I'm not sure the mac mini could fit one of these.
> 
> My argument is, there is really no simple prefab system (that I know about) that would allow for expandability or contain high quality components that would match or rival car audio sound processors.


The presonus has 6 balanced TRS outs, 2 midi, and 2 XLR for a total of ten outs and is ASIO capable. The firewire is lower latency than USB. I have now blown my wad and that is all I know about it..

I drive an Audi A^ that has a really nice spot where a disc changer would have gone. It would fit alot of equipment, or more specifically, would be a real nice place to mount a computer in any way I wanted. I am still a little wary of building my own PC.

The firewire interfaces are powered VIA the firwire but is there a possibility of ground loop issues when doing it that way. 

Are there extremely nice sound cards with RCA's? 192?


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## Jopop

Search noob 


http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/faq-emporium/51489-attention-newbies-faq-faqs.html


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## AWC

Jopop said:


> Search noob
> 
> 
> http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/faq-emporium/51489-attention-newbies-faq-faqs.html


nice

I mentioned several times that I would like to have a conversation about topics already covered. I mentioned the ability to search and yet the desire to chit chat...so move on to the next thread, dick.

I find that a forum is a good place to have a conversation. Why, exactly, do we come here if we aren't allowed to talk about things that have been covered. Perhaps, if there is nothing else to add, you can find a nice chunk of "off". You know what do with it.


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## Jopop

aworldcollision said:


> nice
> 
> I mentioned several times that I would like to have a conversation about topics already covered. I mentioned the ability to search and yet the desire to chit chat...so blow me.


It was a pun related to the fact that you are one of the most prominent search whores on this forum  Don't take that the wrong way though 


Building your own is easier than you think. I did it first time when i was 13 with no info on the subject and it turns out it was pretty much piss easy. For a carputer you can get away with limited RAM and integrated graphics, which saves money. Spend the dough on the processor and the audio interface (maudio has nice internal cards for little cash).


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## AWC

Jopop said:


> It was a pun related to the fact that you are one of the most prominent search whores on this forum  Don't take that the wrong way though
> 
> 
> Building your own is easier than you think. I did it first time when i was 13 with no info on the subject and it turns out it was pretty much piss easy. For a carputer you can get away with limited RAM and integrated graphics, which saves money. Spend the dough on the processor and the audio interface (maudio has nice internal cards for little cash).


I'm no search whore. I've offered many times that we should consider ways to accomodate newbies with an organized approach. Last week I saw 957 threads involving the same sub and I had some fun with it. The only time I offered a "search noob" was when it was either s retarded question (is 10" bigger than 12") or there was disrespect in the tone of the question. 

Furthermore, half the crap I post is to see if someone will have a civilized conversation about car audio (which is why we are here in the first place)...doesn't seem to happen much. I offer subjects that may or my not EVER get answered because someone talked about a similar subject four years ago with different equipment that had a similar color and, though relevant, isn't really the question at hand..which is how does an audio person who doesn't know computers start this.

If you look at alot of the info available, it seems that it is a computer hobby with alot of audio flexibility. I'm an audio guy looking for computer flexibilty. There is a difference. 

IOW, I don't know what the hell alot of the computer guys at MP3car.com are talking about...though I have tried. Some people just ain't compuetr savvy

I could just ask what sub sounds best with an Ipod


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## Jopop

aworldcollision said:


> I'm no search whore. I've offered many times that we should consider ways to accomodate newbies with an organized approach. Last week I saw 957 threads involving the same sub and I had some fun with it. The only time I offered a "search noob" was when it was either s retarded question (is 10" bigger than 12") or there was disrespect in the tone of the question.
> 
> Furthermore, half the crap I post is to see if someone will have a civilized conversation about car audio (which is why we are here in the first place)...doesn't seem to happen much. I offer subjects that may or my not EVER get answered because someone talked about a similar subject four years ago with different equipment that had a similar color and, though relevant, isn't really the question at hand..which is how does an audio person who doesn't know computers start this.
> 
> If you look at alot of the info available, it seems that it is a computer hobby with alot of audio flexibility. I'm an audio guy looking for computer flexibilty. There is a difference.
> 
> IOW, I don't know what the hell alot of the computer guys at MP3car.com are talking about...though I have tried. Some people just ain't compuetr savvy
> 
> I could just ask what sub sounds best with an Ipod


You could always ask in this thread 

I'm researching carputers too. I have an old laptop and i wonder if it'll suffice. I don't think the CPU could do it though, i guess it depends on how much DSP stuff I'm gonna run. It's a 2gb pentium four. It's gonna be ghetto. Right now it is serving files on my home network, and it struggles


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## AWC

My only audio computing background is with sound editing and I know the laptop struggles. I ran the same firebox I mentioned before but only really learned the inputs (outputs were headphones). I think it should pretty well for playing though. Audio editing takes alot of CPU power but playback shouldn't be a bigdeal, should it? 

I had considered a laptop with a dock. (hypothetical) Install the dock to a location that the laptop is secure, then run USB to a USB splitter up front for mouse and touchscreen. This is why I asked about the pro-audio interfgaces, because they are made to be external. You don't have to find a place to install it on the PC (be it a mac mini or laptop) it could be installed right next to the amps for a short run.

Just a thought. I don't know much about docking laptops and their output capablities, though.


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## bretti_kivi

STOP!

question one: WHAT are you looking for?
2. Why?

Some Terms before we start:

- Digital I/O: S/PDIF - you've seen it on your DVD player. It's an RCA socket, normally Black. It carries Digital signals. "Sony / Philips Digital InterFace". 
Important: Frequency. For reasons we won't go into here, the max frequency carriable at a certain clock frequency is half the clock. The bits are the resolution.
So, 16bit, 44.1kHz is CD. Max=22.05kHz.
24bit = "better"
However, if your music was sourced from CD, there's no real point in 24-bit UNLESS you can apply filters and stuff at 24-bit.
With me so far?

- compression and codecs. MP3 is a Codec. So is FLAC, OGG and AAC3. The latter is used by apple, FLAC is widely regarded as being "****in' a", OGG is a reasonable compromise. MP3 is.... "suboptimal" quality-wise.
- kbps - just how much information you use to represent the music. For MP3, as a rough guide:
<128kbps - insufficient
128kbps - 160kbps = OK-ish
>256kbps = arguably overkill.

OGG uses "quality"; personally, I use q=5. It's Variable bitrate (VBR), which means that the kbps number changes regularly. If it's quiet and "empty", there's less info, so the rate goes down; it goes up when there's more info. VBR is also applicable to MP3.

Your Apple choons use AAC3. I don't like it. It has Digital Rights Management incorporated and that stinks IMO. 

Now, I assume here that the answer to one is
- strange Codecs, Nav, Handsfree, LOTS of space, filtering, Crossover on one machine.

Problems to deal with: 
- Input. You need to control music somehow. 
Go google "space navigator", "centrafuse", roadrunner. Then check out how complex it is to set up media keys (the special ones on top of your keyboard) to work with Winamp or Foobar2000.

In Winamp, they're called "global hot keys", in Foobar2000, you need to set them up and make them a Global Hotkey when you define them.

- your player: forget Windoze Media Player. Go find Foobar and install it. Test it. Then go get FoxyTunes for Firefox and play with the settings.

- Screen. If you're in a cold climate, you'll need one that can be at the very least stored at a reasonably low temp (-20?). Resolution doesn't really matter, 800x600, 848x480, 1024x768 is too high on anything less than 10". 
- Machine itself: speed doesnt' really matter. If you're just running Foobar on Windows, then a 500Mhz machine should be fine, Win2000. If you want XP, a 512MB memory machine with 1GHz is minimum.

- Disk space: cold is a huge problem here. Google "endurastar". Or you boot (start) from a compact Flash card (adapters available) and then pick your music up off a 2.5" disk

- Soundcard: if you're using a small motherboard, like Mini-ITX, you'll probably want a USB soundcard. Problem: USB 6-Channel Soundcards are rare as rocking-horse ****. I have two. One doesn't work 100%, the other requires 12VAC: it's going back. ESI Gigaport AG maybe works.

Alternative: take something like a D201GLY (google!), then an M-Audio 1010; there are LOTS of PCI cards that have RCA outputs.

DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING FROM CREATIVE! the quality is not sufficient. End.

You will want a ****load of software to make this work. You may need allocator. You may need Virtual Audio Cable. You may need decent software drivers for your Soundcard. 

I haven't even gone into Nav solutions here. There are ways round all sorts of things, but you need to know what they are. 

you have a couple of hours worth of reading up there.

Bret


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## BLACKonBLACK98

i recently researched and built a carpc starting from very basic computer knowledge. my computer has been booted indoors, but not installed, so this is just what i've learned so far.



aworldcollision said:


> 1. Small, stable, powerful enough, resiliant computers that would do well in a car environment. IOW, Mac-mini competitors and wannabes.


size depends on what components you choose. a low wattage system with no expansion cards can fit in a reasonably small case. a higher power system with expansion cards can get pretty big.

heres mine (old school ps2 keyboard and slim usb optical drive should give you a size reference):









as far as computing power its no different than any other type of computer. mine has a 2.1ghz core 2 duo processor, 2gb ram, 160gb hard drive, etc. most say i overdid it. i say so what.

stability remains to be seen.



> 2. I have a lot of space to build a PC, is it that hard? Should I consider it? Or just keep it simple and use the mac mini?


turns out building a computer is easy. i was concerned when i started but for no reason.

mac users are kind of segregated from pc users in the carputer community so i've read nothing about them.

there are also pre-built pc carputers available.



> 3. Soundcards. Most soundcards have the small 3.25 mm jack. How do you combat this? Are there true audiophile soundcards with 8 outputs? I know there are lots of options out there. Are they more prone to picking up engine noises than processors built for the car? There is a link at the bottom for a pro-audio interface. It has balanced ins and outs and the amount of flexibility could be astounding.... will it work? I own it is why I ask...


i personally chose an onkyo "consumer grade audiophile" card. i wanted to k.i.s.s. it and have no plans of going active so i chose what looked to be a quality stereo card with rca outs and 0 bells/whistles.

there are also pro-audio cards that have multiple outputs and yada, yada, yada... didn't get to far into it cause i didn't care. these, whether pci or usb seem to be the choice of the sq guys that do a lot of tuning via plugins.



> 4. Software. Are there any autotuning programs, like Audyssey, that can be used on a carputer?


again, didn't get too far into this but heres a link that should cover the bases:

http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/high-end-solutions/88359-software-options-tuning.html


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## ehkewley

bretti_kivi said:


> STOP!
> 
> question one: WHAT are you looking for?
> 2. Why?
> 
> Some Terms before we start:
> 
> - Digital I/O: S/PDIF - you've seen it on your DVD player. It's an RCA socket, normally Black. It carries Digital signals. "Sony / Philips Digital InterFace".
> Important: Frequency. For reasons we won't go into here, the max frequency carriable at a certain clock frequency is half the clock. The bits are the resolution.
> So, 16bit, 44.1kHz is CD. Max=22.05kHz.
> 24bit = "better"
> However, if your music was sourced from CD, there's no real point in 24-bit UNLESS you can apply filters and stuff at 24-bit.
> With me so far?
> 
> - compression and codecs. MP3 is a Codec. So is FLAC, OGG and AAC3. The latter is used by apple, FLAC is widely regarded as being "****in' a", OGG is a reasonable compromise. MP3 is.... "suboptimal" quality-wise.
> - kbps - just how much information you use to represent the music. For MP3, as a rough guide:
> <128kbps - insufficient
> 128kbps - 160kbps = OK-ish
> >256kbps = arguably overkill.
> 
> OGG uses "quality"; personally, I use q=5. It's Variable bitrate (VBR), which means that the kbps number changes regularly. If it's quiet and "empty", there's less info, so the rate goes down; it goes up when there's more info. VBR is also applicable to MP3.
> 
> Your Apple choons use AAC3. I don't like it. It has Digital Rights Management incorporated and that stinks IMO.
> 
> Now, I assume here that the answer to one is
> - strange Codecs, Nav, Handsfree, LOTS of space, filtering, Crossover on one machine.
> 
> Problems to deal with:
> - Input. You need to control music somehow.
> Go google "space navigator", "centrafuse", roadrunner. Then check out how complex it is to set up media keys (the special ones on top of your keyboard) to work with Winamp or Foobar2000.
> 
> In Winamp, they're called "global hot keys", in Foobar2000, you need to set them up and make them a Global Hotkey when you define them.
> 
> - your player: forget Windoze Media Player. Go find Foobar and install it. Test it. Then go get FoxyTunes for Firefox and play with the settings.
> 
> - Screen. If you're in a cold climate, you'll need one that can be at the very least stored at a reasonably low temp (-20?). Resolution doesn't really matter, 800x600, 848x480, 1024x768 is too high on anything less than 10".
> - Machine itself: speed doesnt' really matter. If you're just running Foobar on Windows, then a 500Mhz machine should be fine, Win2000. If you want XP, a 512MB memory machine with 1GHz is minimum.
> 
> - Disk space: cold is a huge problem here. Google "endurastar". Or you boot (start) from a compact Flash card (adapters available) and then pick your music up off a 2.5" disk
> 
> - Soundcard: if you're using a small motherboard, like Mini-ITX, you'll probably want a USB soundcard. Problem: USB 6-Channel Soundcards are rare as rocking-horse ****. I have two. One doesn't work 100%, the other requires 12VAC: it's going back. ESI Gigaport AG maybe works.
> 
> Alternative: take something like a D201GLY (google!), then an M-Audio 1010; there are LOTS of PCI cards that have RCA outputs.
> 
> DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING FROM CREATIVE! the quality is not sufficient. End.
> 
> You will want a ****load of software to make this work. You may need allocator. You may need Virtual Audio Cable. You may need decent software drivers for your Soundcard.
> 
> I haven't even gone into Nav solutions here. There are ways round all sorts of things, but you need to know what they are.
> 
> you have a couple of hours worth of reading up there.
> 
> Bret


There are some great suggestions in there (along with some things I suggested), but I think this would totaly overwhelm the novice carpc builder. He stated himself he was a noob, and I think in the DIY spirit, it would be more ideal to get started with something that "just works" perhaps the bare minimum, and then he can learn and explore which software might work best, or which plugins would work wonderfly. I'm just speaking from my point of view here, since I wouldn't want to be totally overwhelmed, and would probably start with something simple that works good enough. Does foobar 2000 work on the mac? I agree it's a great stripped-down media player.


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## bretti_kivi

mac? I am focussed here on Windows. Why? because your only choice with Mac is a mini. You know of a decent Nav package for Mac or Linux? 'cos I don't.....

I have to go do some family stuff. I come back later.

Bret


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## felix509

A Car PC is great, i have been running mine for 18 months or so.. 


The absolute easiest way to get started is to use a PC to replace your head unit, then do processing with the same processors you would use with a CD head unit. I did digital out --> Zapco DSP6 --> Amps. I really wanted to have my complete music collection and NAV, but i do not use a whole lot of the other features of a car computer.. 

I do have a mobile broadband from AT&T that i use for internet, but i just use it for weather and streaming radio stations.. 


I have used a small case in the past, but now i am not using a case at all, just mounting the motherboard and power supply on a piece of MDF with some spacers to have an inch of clearance under them.. I have a ton of room though, so i have the option to have it all spread out like this..

Building a PC is very easy these days, and depending on what you want to do with it, you do not need to spend a ton of money.. SHoot, i saw a 750Gb hard drive for $78 a couple days ago.. I would not skimp on the power supply, but one with plenty of spare power, i like the OPUS one i use, not problems at all.. 

I have not seen an auto tuning system that is affordable and looks good for a car situation.. There are some that are geared toward studios, but they are pricey and do not do exactly what we need.. 



I cannot bear to not have a computer in the car now that i have used it for a while, having all of the music and NAV in your car is great..


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## AWC

bretti_kivi said:


> STOP!
> 
> question one: WHAT are you looking for?
> 2. Why?
> 
> Some Terms before we start:
> 
> - Digital I/O: S/PDIF - you've seen it on your DVD player. It's an RCA socket, normally Black. It carries Digital signals. "Sony / Philips Digital InterFace".
> Important: Frequency. For reasons we won't go into here, the max frequency carriable at a certain clock frequency is half the clock. The bits are the resolution.
> So, 16bit, 44.1kHz is CD. Max=22.05kHz.
> 24bit = "better"
> However, if your music was sourced from CD, there's no real point in 24-bit UNLESS you can apply filters and stuff at 24-bit.
> With me so far?
> 
> - compression and codecs. MP3 is a Codec. So is FLAC, OGG and AAC3. The latter is used by apple, FLAC is widely regarded as being "****in' a", OGG is a reasonable compromise. MP3 is.... "suboptimal" quality-wise.
> - kbps - just how much information you use to represent the music. For MP3, as a rough guide:
> <128kbps - insufficient
> 128kbps - 160kbps = OK-ish
> >256kbps = arguably overkill.
> 
> OGG uses "quality"; personally, I use q=5. It's Variable bitrate (VBR), which means that the kbps number changes regularly. If it's quiet and "empty", there's less info, so the rate goes down; it goes up when there's more info. VBR is also applicable to MP3.
> 
> Your Apple choons use AAC3. I don't like it. It has Digital Rights Management incorporated and that stinks IMO.
> 
> Now, I assume here that the answer to one is
> - strange Codecs, Nav, Handsfree, LOTS of space, filtering, Crossover on one machine.
> 
> Problems to deal with:
> - Input. You need to control music somehow.
> Go google "space navigator", "centrafuse", roadrunner. Then check out how complex it is to set up media keys (the special ones on top of your keyboard) to work with Winamp or Foobar2000.
> 
> In Winamp, they're called "global hot keys", in Foobar2000, you need to set them up and make them a Global Hotkey when you define them.
> 
> - your player: forget Windoze Media Player. Go find Foobar and install it. Test it. Then go get FoxyTunes for Firefox and play with the settings.
> 
> - Screen. If you're in a cold climate, you'll need one that can be at the very least stored at a reasonably low temp (-20?). Resolution doesn't really matter, 800x600, 848x480, 1024x768 is too high on anything less than 10".
> - Machine itself: speed doesnt' really matter. If you're just running Foobar on Windows, then a 500Mhz machine should be fine, Win2000. If you want XP, a 512MB memory machine with 1GHz is minimum.
> 
> - Disk space: cold is a huge problem here. Google "endurastar". Or you boot (start) from a compact Flash card (adapters available) and then pick your music up off a 2.5" disk
> 
> - Soundcard: if you're using a small motherboard, like Mini-ITX, you'll probably want a USB soundcard. Problem: USB 6-Channel Soundcards are rare as rocking-horse ****. I have two. One doesn't work 100%, the other requires 12VAC: it's going back. ESI Gigaport AG maybe works.
> 
> Alternative: take something like a D201GLY (google!), then an M-Audio 1010; there are LOTS of PCI cards that have RCA outputs.
> 
> DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING FROM CREATIVE! the quality is not sufficient. End.
> 
> You will want a ****load of software to make this work. You may need allocator. You may need Virtual Audio Cable. You may need decent software drivers for your Soundcard.
> 
> I haven't even gone into Nav solutions here. There are ways round all sorts of things, but you need to know what they are.
> 
> you have a couple of hours worth of reading up there.
> 
> Bret


Thank you. I'm on it. I always appreciate the starting points. Otherwise, topics seem huge and overwhelming. When I get the chance to narrow it down I can focus so again, thanks.

1. The goal? Infinite expansion without wondering if Alpine is going to offer something. Infinite expansion as well as high quality processing. Nav and all the other bells and whistles are definite considerations but only as an afterthougth. The sound comes first.

I have actually finally made a decision and will be putting up a Sinfoni 150.2x for sale (cheap plug) as I'm staying passive. I'll need 4.1 channels and am going to offer it a premier one class a pre-amp (with volume control) to work with. So I'll need pristine processing but preamp voltage and volume control will be taken care of. I don't think I'll want to use the tiny volume control via touchscreen and Sinfoni will probably make nicer preamps than M-audio so I think this will simplify things.

I'll look up the equipment you mentioned. Soundblaster= bad, got it.....pretty much anything available at wal-mart is a no-go.



BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> i recently researched and built a carpc starting from very basic computer knowledge. my computer has been booted indoors, but not installed, so this is just what i've learned so far.
> 
> 
> 
> size depends on what components you choose. a low wattage system with no expansion cards can fit in a reasonably small case. a higher power system with expansion cards can get pretty big.
> 
> heres mine (old school ps2 keyboard and slim usb optical drive should give you a size reference):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as far as computing power its no different than any other type of computer. mine has a 2.1ghz core 2 duo processor, 2gb ram, 160gb hard drive, etc. most say i overdid it. i say so what.
> 
> stability remains to be seen.
> 
> 
> 
> turns out building a computer is easy. i was concerned when i started but for no reason.
> 
> mac users are kind of segregated from pc users in the carputer community so i've read nothing about them.
> 
> there are also pre-built pc carputers available.
> 
> 
> 
> i personally chose an onkyo "consumer grade audiophile" card. i wanted to k.i.s.s. it and have no plans of going active so i chose what looked to be a quality stereo card with rca outs and 0 bells/whistles.
> 
> there are also pro-audio cards that have multiple outputs and yada, yada, yada... didn't get to far into it cause i didn't care. these, whether pci or usb seem to be the choice of the sq guys that do a lot of tuning via plugins.
> 
> 
> 
> again, didn't get too far into this but heres a link that should cover the bases:
> 
> http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/high-end-solutions/88359-software-options-tuning.html


Thanks, I'm in the middle of the link you posted already. Alot of info, again it needs to be taken in chunks, digested, then go after it again. Keep us posted as you move along. I'll shortly be following and alot can be learned by sharing mistakes. I appreciate the response.



ehkewley said:


> There are some great suggestions in there (along with some things I suggested), but I think this would totaly overwhelm the novice carpc builder. He stated himself he was a noob, and I think in the DIY spirit, it would be more ideal to get started with something that "just works" perhaps the bare minimum, and then he can learn and explore which software might work best, or which plugins would work wonderfly. I'm just speaking from my point of view here, since I wouldn't want to be totally overwhelmed, and would probably start with something simple that works good enough. Does foobar 2000 work on the mac? I agree it's a great stripped-down media player.


You offer excellent POV's. Yes, the subject seems vast and intimidating. I'm going to offer a paroble to this. My mother has very bad knees and is a bit frail these days. When standing up from her chair if you offer her your hand she can stand right up. Without the hand she struggles. I, however, have felt that there is almost no pressure applied to my hand when helping and yet the mental aspect of a helping hand seems to lift her, mentally, in a way that trulyl helps. It is not the physical assistance but the knowledge that she has a helping hand that nakes the difference.

IOW, you are most correct when you suggest the possiblity of being overwhelmed. Howver, BK is a very knowledgable member of the forum and if he offers his hand, I feel pretty confident that I can pull this off. This is the very reason that I approach (extremely new) newbies the way I do. VIA PM, I offer my assistance in any way I can. All I hope to accomplish is that the member understands his responsibility to learn at his own pace, and my responsibility to help when and where I can. All this can do is offer the confidence of knowing there is someone to fall back on...just in case.....but then, I have been told I am condescending dick for asking someone if they need help. So it doesn't always work.

What we have here, however, is an established helper/helpee relationship. BK has extablished my responsibility on what I need to learn and where to start. It would be a gross misjudgemnet for me to not heed that advice and if I ask for answers that would be covered in my assigned reading, he'll know I didn't do the homework and probably openly chastize me

IOW, yeah, intimidating, but that's why we're here. For the mutual love of great sounds and the constant nagging propensity to mess with stuff

Thanks.


----------



## AWC

felix509 said:


> A Car PC is great, i have been running mine for 18 months or so..
> 
> 
> The absolute easiest way to get started is to use a PC to replace your head unit, then do processing with the same processors you would use with a CD head unit. I did digital out --> Zapco DSP6 --> Amps. I really wanted to have my complete music collection and NAV, but i do not use a whole lot of the other features of a car computer..
> 
> I do have a mobile broadband from AT&T that i use for internet, but i just use it for weather and streaming radio stations..
> 
> 
> I have used a small case in the past, but now i am not using a case at all, just mounting the motherboard and power supply on a piece of MDF with some spacers to have an inch of clearance under them.. I have a ton of room though, so i have the option to have it all spread out like this..
> 
> Building a PC is very easy these days, and depending on what you want to do with it, you do not need to spend a ton of money.. SHoot, i saw a 750Gb hard drive for $78 a couple days ago.. I would not skimp on the power supply, but one with plenty of spare power, i like the OPUS one i use, not problems at all..
> 
> I have not seen an auto tuning system that is affordable and looks good for a car situation.. There are some that are geared toward studios, but they are pricey and do not do exactly what we need..
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot bear to not have a computer in the car now that i have used it for a while, having all of the music and NAV in your car is great..


I certainly considered using a car-specific processor. The thing is, I was looking at processors and it made me think it would be better to go car pc. Considering I would need a new deck capable of fiber optic output, then purchase the processor in an attempt to get the processing power of the PC. If I currently owned a 701 or DSP-6 I would be looking at everything differenlty. But I don't. I will have a Sinfoni 6 channel pre-amp with external volume control. I figure this will give a high-quality PC signal the nut that it needs. I don't know how PC's are for output voltage. 

I assume if I were to utilize a DAW type external soundcard that output voltage would be fine but that may be financially infeasible....I have alot of studying to do before I continue to ramble on in a percocet induced frenzy


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## AWC

I'm guessing that having an external power supply is a real positive for the M-Audio 1010? Otherwise, would I be better off looking into 24 bit 192 khz DAC? I'd need two of them for my purposes making it a pretty spendy concept. Not quite as spendy as the 1010 or as flexible but if our soundcard is the DAC, then where is the priority? Flexibility or fidelity? And how much of a difference would 192 vs 96 make anyway? 

That 1010 is $600. Just figured I'd mention that.


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## ehkewley

aworldcollision said:


> You offer excellent POV's. Yes, the subject seems vast and intimidating. I'm going to offer a paroble to this. My mother has very bad knees and is a bit frail these days. When standing up from her chair if you offer her your hand she can stand right up. Without the hand she struggles. I, however, have felt that there is almost no pressure applied to my hand when helping and yet the mental aspect of a helping hand seems to lift her, mentally, in a way that trulyl helps. It is not the physical assistance but the knowledge that she has a helping hand that nakes the difference.
> 
> IOW, you are most correct when you suggest the possiblity of being overwhelmed. Howver, BK is a very knowledgable member of the forum and if he offers his hand, I feel pretty confident that I can pull this off. This is the very reason that I approach (extremely new) newbies the way I do. VIA PM, I offer my assistance in any way I can. All I hope to accomplish is that the member understands his responsibility to learn at his own pace, and my responsibility to help when and where I can. All this can do is offer the confidence of knowing there is someone to fall back on...just in case.....but then, I have been told I am condescending dick for asking someone if they need help. So it doesn't always work.
> 
> What we have here, however, is an established helper/helpee relationship. BK has extablished my responsibility on what I need to learn and where to start. It would be a gross misjudgemnet for me to not heed that advice and if I ask for answers that would be covered in my assigned reading, he'll know I didn't do the homework and probably openly chastize me
> 
> IOW, yeah, intimidating, but that's why we're here. For the mutual love of great sounds and the constant nagging propensity to mess with stuff
> 
> Thanks.


That's perfectly understandable. I think I had misread your original posting. 

As for the M-audio 1010

there appear to be two models. There's the 1010 with the breakout box (requires power supply), and the 1010 with the giant dongle that appears to not need the power supply. Both use the pci interface.

Why would you need two of these though? It essentially gives you 8 mono (4 stereo) outputs, which should be sufficient for a 3 way setup and sub. I'd be interested in hearing what your design ideas are. 

As far as I know there's really no difference between 96khz and 192khz for pre-recorded audio. Most music comes from cd's recorded at 44khz, so I don't think you'd be missing any dynamic resolution. I think the values are higher for those wishing to do their own audio recording.


----------



## AWC

I would have needed 2 of the 192khz cards not the 1010. I know the reason for increased processing is mostly for recording but wanted to clarify for playback. Again, I have expericne with alot of this as it pertains to recodring. The 192 khz card is a 2 channel L+R with a high quality spdif. this may be a great option if I were using the DSP-6 but since all processing would be done in the PC, I don't think its viable.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/MAudio-Audiophile-192-PCI-Interface?sku=703610

Any opinions on minijack to RCA adaptors? Are they noise gathering devices or are there some high quality options? Just thinking out loud...


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## felix509

What does the Sinfoni Processor do?? Xover, EQ, etc???? It having volume control is very good, that is a major hurdle, I actually use an Audiocontol MVC for my volume control.

What is your master plan?? Why would you need 2 separate stereo pairs out from the PC? Are you doing crossover in the computer?

There are many different High quality USB DAC's that put out good voltage and very high quality analogue signals. The HippoHIFI Bloat is one exaple, but there are numerous others also.

I was just suggesting an easy start point by using an external processor.. By using one, you could concentrate on the computer set up only, don't kid yourself, it is Tons of work and time to get it all working correctly... 

The only use you would have for a 192 KHz capable DAC is if you want to upsample your music, as cd's are 44KHz natively. The benefit of upsampling is debated and seems to be personal preference..


----------



## AWC

felix509 said:


> What does the Sinfoni Processor do?? Xover, EQ, etc???? It having volume control is very good, that is a major hurdle, I actually use an Audiocontol MVC for my volume control.
> 
> What is your master plan?? Why would you need 2 separate stereo pairs out from the PC? Are you doing crossover in the computer?
> 
> There are many different High quality USB DAC's that put out good voltage and very high quality analogue signals. The HippoHIFI Bloat is one exaple, but there are numerous others also.
> 
> I was just suggesting an easy start point by using an external processor.. By using one, you could concentrate on the computer set up only, don't kid yourself, it is Tons of work and time to get it all working correctly...
> 
> The only use you would have for a 192 KHz capable DAC is if you want to upsample your music, as cd's are 44KHz natively. The benefit of upsampling is debated and seems to be personal preference..


The Sinfoni is just a 6 channel line driver with an infrared volume control. It's a class a line driver. I considered it for the volume control as well as preamp voltage. 

I wouldn't need two pairs. I just wanted to clarify the 96 vs 192 issue. As a musician who has needed this stuff for recording, it is hard to seperate the priorities from reproduction to recording. I was just making sure and didn't want to cut corners.

As far as a master plan, I don't actually have one. I have three way front stage + sub. Will NOT be running rear-fill. I actually only need 5 channels. L+R highs and mids
L+R midbass
sub

Passive biamped. It should be pretty run of the mill car pc with a standard audiophile emphasis. The line driver was just a nice way to control volume + it is a nice piece of equipment if such a piece is needed. 

The only master plan I have is to be able to add, subtract and change my system one element at a time rather than change the whole set-up just because I don't like one part of it.

Using proaudio components with highquality mic inputs would be a plus (not a demand) because of camp-side recording. It is this type of activity that is drawing me in the direction, not that I can record but that recording isn't just out of the question. CarPC means infinite possibilities. That's my master plan...


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## envisionelec

aworldcollision said:


> I want to have a discussion about Car PC's in a way that won't make me want to jam a pencil in my eye...
> 
> I realize the infinite amount of information on this subject. Since I (apparently) suffer from ADHD and know very little about computers I want to start a thread geared towards Audiophile Car PC for the computer dummy.


I only got through the first sentence before I hit "Post Reply".  I'm right here with you - I really want to gather up the data before doing this in my next car, so let's see some excellent posts!


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

I also, couldn't build a CarPC to save my life.... 

This is why i'm going to use a modded xBox, optical out to my h701 and call it a day... 

My need for "supreme" SQ is minimal... so I'm going with something "easy" and HU-less...


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## felix509

Does the Sinfoni Line driver have one pair of inputs-->3 out? Or is it like the MVC, with 3 pairs in, 3 out, ability to be kept separate?? Where do you want to do crossover functions?


I have tried 3 sound cards so far, and have yet to get the whole software processing to work perfect. I bought an M-Audio 1010 LT PCI card that i am gonna try next, as it has been proven to work with the vst plug ins/routing.. I can then do away with the DSP6 and M Audio transit i am using now.

Many of the pro-type cards have mic preamps that you can use for Tuning(frequency and impulse response) and also you could use for that unplanned recording session.. 

Keep in mind you need high quality audio files to make it worth wile.. I have ripped all of my CDs to FLAC format, but there are different solutions.


----------



## bretti_kivi

Where's XO happening? On the Amp? In a processor? On the PC?

Try:
- get your multi-output soundcard (1010 was simply a "i know that this does what I want", not a recommendation!)
- install on Windows


Code:


the drivers
reboot
Foobar2000
TEST!
reboot
ASIO4ALL
reboot
check that ASIO sees the soundcard and can see all of its outputs (it sounds worse than it is)
install VirtualAudio Cable
reboot
install Thuneau.com's "Allocator" or "Allocator Lite" - DON'T worry about the "winamp wrapper", ASIO4ALL will deal with that
reboot
Set the output in Foobar's Preferences ("General - output", surprisingly enough) to the ASIO card (it should be obvious)
Set the ASIO output to be the Virtual Audio Cable
Set the input of Allocator to be the Virtual Audio Cable
select and play with Allocator, assign the outputs as you wish.

sounds complicated, huh? Well, it is, if you want to do XO on the PC. That is something that is theoretically easier on a processor. Why? Don't know, but...

Foobar makes sound, passes that on to the stereo input of ASIO. ASIO4ALL then channels the sound to the virtual cable, which is the input of Allocator. Allocator then assigns the virtual channels (6 of them, hi mid bass each side) to a physical output on the soundcard. Away you go.

If you want to play with VST, try George Yohng's VST Wrapper and Posihfopit EQ; also the stereo convolver is an excellent way to check out just what this **** can do.

Start, by all means, small; install foobar, make sure it works how you need it. It's a real **** to have to rip a PC out of the car because you "forgot" x - make sure it works out of the car before you plug it in. 

Be also really, really careful when playing with this stuff; the windows "BONG"! was the first sound I heard this evening from my system (oops) - though I'm running that, at the moment, in the simplest way possible. Internal XO and 2-channel stereo output. Sounds good, so why go more complex? 
Having said that, path length differences on my tweets are less than 6". Your install makes or breaks it...

Bret


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## Jopop

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> I also, couldn't build a CarPC to save my life....
> 
> This is why i'm going to use a modded xBox, optical out to my h701 and call it a day...
> 
> My need for "supreme" SQ is minimal... so I'm going with something "easy" and HU-less...


Wait - you can do that? Can you use an xbox360 as well? I have like 12 of them so that would pretty much rule. Google time.


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## 14642

I'm in the middle of a similar project right now. It sure isn't easy, but there's a bunch of stuff NOT to be worried about. 

I use an Intel Mac Mini and it's fine. I don't care about running NAV and all the other stuff, it's strictly for signal processing and managing media files, so I'm not going to be much help with front end software and the like. 

I use JRiver Media Center as a music management program and I chose it because I'm unhappily married to iTunes, and it will play m4p through quicktime. If you're not married to iTunes, there are others, but Media Center can be controlled almost completely using key commands. It also has a view scheme called "Theater View" that's simple to use while driving. It has ASIO support that works on all media except for m4P, which has to be played through Quicktime, and Quicktime doesn't support ASIO. If you're also married to iTunes, you can enable the digital output from the Mini and use an optical connection to an external soundcard. I haven't noticed any degradation in sound quality using that scheme. 

Space Navigator and the RBC9 driver make controlling Media Center pretty easy. You can program the device to output the necessary key commands and it's pretty easy to fine tune the programming to make it easy to operate while you're moving. It's hard to use as a mouse though, and the "ergonomic touchpad" is easy to integrate into almost any installation.

If you don't want to do signal processing in the PC, the line output on the Mini is fine, although the output voltage is quite low. Use a ground loop isolator and you won't have any noise issues.

For a power supply, you'll need a regulated DC/DC convertor, and the Carnetix 2140 (I think) is great. It's configurable and provides additional outputs for a screen, amp turn-on, and USB. There's a cable set called a MAC PAC that includes the appropriate cables for the Mini. 

The soundcard issue is the biggest pain in the ass. I use a TC Electronics Konnekt48. It's preposterously expensive, isn't bus powered and has some software quirks. I bought it because it has a wired remote that includes a rotary encoder for volume on the analog outputs. Converting the power supply to 12V wasn't hard. It needs +/-15V, +7 and an isolated ground. Wall Industries has a DC/DC convertor that provides 40 watts of +/-15 and building a regulator for the 7V is cake. There are some other soundcards that support ASIO and ARE bus powered or that include a 12V wall -wart. M-Audio Firewire 2626 might be cool. Even soundblaster cards will work fine if you download the ASIO drivers. ASIO4ALL is also helpful when it comes to signal routing. 

Signal processing in the PC is pretty easy with a VST host and some plug-ins. Both Console and AudioMulch are cool and pretty easy to set up. I prefer console--it's a little simpler and hibernates without additional code writing. Almost any filter is available as a VST, and the Audyeesy EQ is also available as a VST. It isn't cheap, though. 

Obviously, check out MP3Car.com.

Here are some other links:


www.console.jp
www.Jriver.com
www.voxengo.com
www.asio4all.com
http://www.3dconnexion.com/3dmouse/spacenavigator.php
http://www.3dconnexion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=336
www.carnetix.com
www.ergonomictouchpad.com
www.M-audio.com
www.wallindustries.com


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## AWC

envisionelec said:


> I only got through the first sentence before I hit "Post Reply".  I'm right here with you - I really want to gather up the data before doing this in my next car, so let's see some excellent posts!


bring it. 




Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> I also, couldn't build a CarPC to save my life....
> 
> This is why i'm going to use a modded xBox, optical out to my h701 and call it a day...
> 
> My need for "supreme" SQ is minimal... so I'm going with something "easy" and HU-less...


I considered this route based solely on your success but really want the infinity factor. Internet on the go sounds cool to me since I have a bad memory and forget where the hell I was supposed to go next...



felix509 said:


> Does the Sinfoni Line driver have one pair of inputs-->3 out? Or is it like the MVC, with 3 pairs in, 3 out, ability to be kept separate?? Where do you want to do crossover functions?
> 
> 
> I have tried 3 sound cards so far, and have yet to get the whole software processing to work perfect. I bought an M-Audio 1010 LT PCI card that i am gonna try next, as it has been proven to work with the vst plug ins/routing.. I can then do away with the DSP6 and M Audio transit i am using now.
> 
> Many of the pro-type cards have mic preamps that you can use for Tuning(frequency and impulse response) and also you could use for that unplanned recording session..
> 
> Keep in mind you need high quality audio files to make it worth wile.. I have ripped all of my CDs to FLAC format, but there are different solutions.


x-over will be passive. I have the mx-33 morel 3-way that has quite a few tuning options. I thought long and hard on this subject and decided to kep the passives in. I have plenty of power and going active, I worried, would do two things; complicate matters in a way that would put my drivers in a state of precarity (too much power) and I felt it was probably a waste of a real good crossover.

The sinfoni is a 6 in 6 out line driver that has linkable outputs. 



bretti_kivi said:


> Where's XO happening? On the Amp? In a processor? On the PC?
> 
> Try:
> - get your multi-output soundcard (1010 was simply a "i know that this does what I want", not a recommendation!)
> - install on Windows
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> the drivers
> reboot
> Foobar2000
> TEST!
> reboot
> ASIO4ALL
> reboot
> check that ASIO sees the soundcard and can see all of its outputs (it sounds worse than it is)
> install VirtualAudio Cable
> reboot
> install Thuneau.com's "Allocator" or "Allocator Lite" - DON'T worry about the "winamp wrapper", ASIO4ALL will deal with that
> reboot
> Set the output in Foobar's Preferences ("General - output", surprisingly enough) to the ASIO card (it should be obvious)
> Set the ASIO output to be the Virtual Audio Cable
> Set the input of Allocator to be the Virtual Audio Cable
> select and play with Allocator, assign the outputs as you wish.
> 
> sounds complicated, huh? Well, it is, if you want to do XO on the PC. That is something that is theoretically easier on a processor. Why? Don't know, but...
> 
> Foobar makes sound, passes that on to the stereo input of ASIO. ASIO4ALL then channels the sound to the virtual cable, which is the input of Allocator. Allocator then assigns the virtual channels (6 of them, hi mid bass each side) to a physical output on the soundcard. Away you go.
> 
> If you want to play with VST, try George Yohng's VST Wrapper and Posihfopit EQ; also the stereo convolver is an excellent way to check out just what this **** can do.
> 
> Start, by all means, small; install foobar, make sure it works how you need it. It's a real **** to have to rip a PC out of the car because you "forgot" x - make sure it works out of the car before you plug it in.
> 
> Be also really, really careful when playing with this stuff; the windows "BONG"! was the first sound I heard this evening from my system (oops) - though I'm running that, at the moment, in the simplest way possible. Internal XO and 2-channel stereo output. Sounds good, so why go more complex?
> Having said that, path length differences on my tweets are less than 6". Your install makes or breaks it...ed
> 
> Bret



You're hitting the nail on the head. This is accompanying a fresh set of kicks for mids and tweets, midbass to stay in factory location. (Is this what you have in your audi?) I currently have my mids located to the sides. No amount of tuning will fix that bs placement so I'm just going to have the door rewrapped and have the mids and tweets located in a better position in front. Install is everything and there is no way around that. 

I will however, need 5 channels of time allignment (passive biamped) and at least a lowpass for sub. The tweets and mids could share time allignment since, by then, they'll be paired in kicks.


As far as all the software mentioned...I have to study


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## ASCI_Blue

I noticed a total lack of a screen. That alone will run about $300.

Also if you plan on having all your music in MP3 format, even the nicest amp on the planet combined with the best sound card won't save it. You're still compressing the data, you will lose audio quality. /thread. 

In my not so humble opinion spending money on a good audio card these days is a joke at best. I have yet to do a side by side comparison but onboard sound chips work just peachy. That said I have my computer plugged into a HT receiver. 

Also on power supplies moar watts doesn't always mean better power supply. An efficient power supply is FAR more important than how much juice it can make. You're not trying to make a gaming system pushing a pair of 9800 GTX SLI, 2 dual core CPUs, and 9 hard drives. A *good* 300 watt power supply is more than enough power to push a pittly ass carputer. 

Also plan to run a keyboard and mouse extension cable(s) in the car. Invest in a wireless network adapter. If you've got a broadband connection plus a wireless router you will never have to remove the PC from the car unless you're out of range.


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## bretti_kivi

PSUs: mini-box.com. linitx.com

You shouldn't even need 200W, it ought to be less than 50.

go listen to a real soundcard using real headphones. I have a T60 from work, a Terratec Phase 26, Creative Sound Blaster Digital Music SX and a Terratec DMX6Fire here. 
I can really hear the difference. Onboard is sort of OK; the creative sounds good. The Phase 26 reintroduces Bass, and the 6Fire really gives air. Very obvious differences, at least to my ears. Shame the 6Fire needs 12VAC.

Bret


----------



## ASCI_Blue

The power bricks on most 15.4" laptops are 90 watts. Unless one is going with a non-hard drive computer you'll still need atleast a 200 watter and that's if it's a damned good 200 watter. I had an XPC with 2 hard drives, optical drive, half gig of RAM, Athlon XP 2500+ overclocked and a GeForce 6800 vanilla and it ran peachy. That said my dad has a Dell with a single core P4 something, gig of ram, single hard drive, optical drive, and a 230 watt power supply and it's not enough juice. 

Why would I listen to a computer on head phones? I would far rather use a computer in a more real world environment. My desktop is connected to a 32" LCD TV and a ht receiver. Even good PC speakers aren't as nice as either my 5 1/4" klipsch's or my 8" onkyo's. That said one would need to do a side by side using a carputer + good speakers + good amp + onboard sound vs sound card to find out if one is really better than the other. This also assumes that one uses a good amp with the pc.


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## bretti_kivi

mini-box.com has a power calc on their website; they also show this: http://www.mini-box.com/M3-ATX-DC-D...e3eSc38LcheTe34Pa38Ta38Saxb0?sc=8&category=13
go also check the PDF at http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl/sc.9/category.24/.f

Normal 3.5" disks use 10W of power; a 2.5" 1W. If you're thinking of running a home server, that's a big difference.
A Mini-itx board should remain below 40W (even the D201GLY does this); if you're running an EE Athlon, it should stay below 100W for board+proc. 

So, 8" screen, D201, 1GB RAM, space nav, M-Audio Transit, 160GB 2.5" disk, that brings us to around 90W of power.

Remember, this isn't about a desktop (at which point I'd definitely go for a real PCI soundcard), it's about a carPC, the main focus of which is music.

Bret


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## AWC

not to be a weenie but...could I get away with building a pc using a single din flip out touchsreen for control and simply run a fiber optic cable to a DRZ? I could perform ALL sound processing with it going completely active. All tuning would be at DRZ (occupying the second din) and all source material would be controlled via the touch screen above the DRZ....this sounds easier and less intimidating. And pretty cool too, if you ask me.

All media would be lossless. I won't be ripping low quality, here


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## bretti_kivi

why not? if the DRZ has optical in and your soundcard has optical out....

Bret


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## AWC

doesn't it sound like a KISS way of guaranteeing the sound you want with the toys you want? Otherwise the clarion has no frills, just sound.


----------

