# Soundstream amps. D series vs Reference series. SQ compared to newer amps.



## gixxer1g (May 1, 2007)

Anyone hear used both the old D series amps and the later Reference series amps? The D series amps (D200, particularly) were extremely clean amps..excellent detail and clarity from mid-bass on up to the highs, but seemed to lack a bit of the lower octaves. How do the Reference series amps compare (Ref 500, 300)? I'm rebuilding a system in a vehicle that was vandalized...thieves stole several D series amps that have proven to be difficult to locate, in good condition, but Refs are everywhere. Any other suggestions? Thanks for any info.


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## JayBee (Oct 6, 2006)

I could be wrong here, but it seems like Ref's can be hit or miss depending on if they were pre or post SS buyout.

There are a couple of threads about the history of SS around that time that might shed some light on the subject.


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## lashlee (Aug 16, 2007)

I had a few of the old ref's, the one's without the chrome ss badge on them, and I know that two of my 500's are still working!! As far as I know, the versions that didn't have the badge were the ones to look for. Once the s and sx series came into play was when they went down hill, fast!!!


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## 310w6 (Nov 13, 2007)

lashlee said:


> I had a few of the old ref's, the one's without the chrome ss badge on them, and I know that two of my 500's are still working!! As far as I know, the versions that didn't have the badge were the ones to look for. Once the s and sx series came into play was when they went down hill, fast!!!


Soundstream did'nt sell out till after the RUBICON series then it went down hill Reference,MC,Class A (the ones that looked like MC&D amps) and D series are pretty hard to find GL!


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## rekd0514 (Sep 24, 2006)

People probably just started taking the badges off. lol


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## mtnickel (Mar 15, 2005)

That reminds me... I gotta throw my Soundstream 644S 4 channel on ebay.

Mark


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## gixxer1g (May 1, 2007)

Thanks for the replies.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

First series REference series are EXCELLENT.

I went on a slight SS shopping spree this past year and grabbed 4 Reference 300 v.1 amps. If you find one that works it'll work for a long time. 

S and Sx are good but you're risking getting an amp that could have been repaired or was never fired up and will blow.


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## cheesehead (Mar 20, 2007)

GlasSman said:


> First series REference series are EXCELLENT.
> 
> I went on a slight SS shopping spree this past year and grabbed 4 Reference 300 v.1 amps. If you find one that works it'll work for a long time.
> 
> S and Sx are good but you're risking getting an amp that could have been repaired or was never fired up and will blow.


I was just about to start a new thread when I came a crossed this one. 

This question is about Soundstream Reference series amps. 

Are the S series and Sx series the most reliable of the soundstreams?

Are there any other series to look for or watch out for?

I was fortunate to have a forum member help inform me of the differences in the PP old school amps. I am just looking for some info on the soundstreams.


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## rimshot (May 17, 2005)

Also dont leave out the first generation rubicons, more stable and reliable than the later reference series with the power supply problems. Soundstream tech himself told me they are at least as good as the reference series.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

I have done a lot of research about old Soundstream amps. Grahn who sometimes writes on this forum is the real expert on Soundstream amps. If you do a search on his name here and on Elite Car Audio you too will be an expert on SS amps. This is what I have learned.

D and MC series amps - Very reliable, clean and musical amps. D200 being an exceptionally clean and musical amp.

Reference amps - I believe these are reliable with the exception of the S and SX series. These were made for competition and were less musical the MC and D series.

1st series Rubicon’s - Reliable and clean amps. 

2nd series Rubicon (Rubi 300-2...). This is where they lost it. The heat exchanger is wavy. They were produced in Korea.


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## mtnickel (Mar 15, 2005)

mitchyz250f said:


> I have done a lot of research about old Soundstream amps. Grahn who sometimes writes on this forum is the real expert on Soundstream amps. If you do a search on his name here and on Elite Car Audio you too will be an expert on SS amps. This is what I have learned.
> 
> D and MC series amps - Very reliable, clean and musical amps. D200 being an exceptionally clean and musical amp.
> 
> ...



I guess this shoots down chances of selling my 644S on here.
I've had no problems with it, and it's been an excellent and very clean amp when i've used it.
Off to ebay it goes i suppose.

Mark


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## dejo (Jan 3, 2006)

for just pure sound quality, give me the mc series all day long over any SS amp ever made.


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## rimshot (May 17, 2005)

that 644 s you have is perfectly fine its the sx series where you need to be worried but like it has been said before, if its been used up to this point, its probably one of the many soundstream lifers. I owned a pair of 700s' and they were bullet proof. You could get mid three hundreds for that 644 with a no reserve auction on the bay.


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## mtnickel (Mar 15, 2005)

rimshot said:


> that 644 s you have is perfectly fine its the sx series where you need to be worried but like it has been said before, if its been used up to this point, its probably one of the many soundstream lifers. I owned a pair of 700s' and they were bullet proof. You could get mid three hundreds for that 644 with a no reserve auction on the bay.


Thx for the advice. As i don't have the original box, i figured $250 Buy-it-now would be about right. (even quoted guys on here $250 shipped).

Mark


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## rimshot (May 17, 2005)

that would sell within hours at that price. I was quoting a mint amp with a box on ebay I have seen them go over 300 bones many times good luck with your sale


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## csuflyboy (Apr 20, 2005)

Finebar's been kind enough to loan me his (now repaired) SoundStream VGA500.4 - and I've connected it to my Magnepans in bridged configuration.

It's everything I love about the older reference series - full, rich sound with a smooth top end.

http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Soundstream_VGA500.4/

Construction and parts wise, it looks like they've improved the power supply quite a bit over the 644s. The output devices per channel are fewer (6 vs 4), but are the larger type (TO-228?).

It's better than some of the other well known "sound quality" amps laying around here for sure!


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

So good to hear. That was the first amp I got burnt buying online, glad to have it working now. Really glad it sounds good.


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## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

*My old SA series were awesome, I regret selling. I have the SS bug again and I am looking for ref's and rubi's and SA/MC's.*


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## deserte4gle (Mar 5, 2008)

Reference series VS D.series??? 
of course reference series is the best.... low end for the reference series already powerfull and clean..... 
In the other words, high-end D.series equal to Low-end reference series..... hhihihihihihi....


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

The S and SX series had power supply problems. They were definitely hit or miss. Soundstream earned the unforuntate nickname, Smokestream during this period. The Reference series (non S or SX) are bulletrpoof and sound wonderful. 

The smart money is on the first generation Rubicons. People think they are junk, but they are probably some of the best out there. Soundstream dumped the old Reference SX line due to it's bad rep, but they still had all the boards left over. They put them in the new Rubicon heatsinks, but with revised power supplies.

The first gen Rubicons are the by far the best bargain IMO. You can get them on the cheap. The second gen Rubicons (when the old Reference boards ran out) are outsourced junk. Well, maybe not junk, but I'd never buy one.

I've owned D series amps, Reference, and Reference Class A. All sounded wonderful. I would say the Class A sounded the best, but damn would it get hot!


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Mooble - I haven't heard that before but it makes sense. An engineer friend of mine works at Panasonic and he always said get a 1st gen Rubicon’s, great sounding and trouble free.


Desterte4gle wrote;
'Reference series VS D.series??? 
of course reference series is the best.... low end for the reference series already powerfull and clean..... 
In the other words, high-end D.series equal to Low-end reference series..... hhihihihihihi.... '

I never heard before. My understanding is that the D and MC series amps were some of the finest SQ amps EVER. Both series have won several awards. Can you please provide background for your statement.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

How can you tell between 1st and 2nd gen Rubicon amps?


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> How can you tell between 1st and 2nd gen Rubicon amps?


Heatsink shape

1st gen









2nd gen


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## 310w6 (Nov 13, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> How can you tell between 1st and 2nd gen Rubicon amps?


1002 702 502 etc...no dash (-2) in between the model #s, correct me if I'm wrong please  and what he said above me.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

310w6 said:


> 1002 702 502 etc...no dash (-2) in between the model #s, correct me if I'm wrong please  and what he said above me.


Rubicon 102/202/302/502/702/1002/204/404/604/805/555/355/10.2/5.2

All REAL Rubicons

The ones made in Korea that have the HAndcrafted in the USA FALSELY placed on the bottom plate are not made by the REAL Soundstream.


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## 310w6 (Nov 13, 2007)

GlasSman said:


> Rubicon 102/202/302/502/702/1002/204/404/604/805/555/355/10.2/5.2
> 
> All REAL Rubicons
> 
> The ones made in Korea that have the HAndcrafted in the USA FALSELY placed on the bottom plate are not made by the REAL Soundstream.


wow, good to know about the not USA ones...


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Mooble said:


> The S and SX series had power supply problems. They were definitely hit or miss. Soundstream earned the unforuntate nickname, Smokestream during this period. The Reference series (non S or SX) are bulletrpoof and sound wonderful.
> 
> The smart money is on the first generation Rubicons. People think they are junk, but they are probably some of the best out there. Soundstream dumped the old Reference SX line due to it's bad rep, but they still had all the boards left over. They put them in the new Rubicon heatsinks, but with revised power supplies.


Actually the Reference lines used the Blue boards and the Rubicons used the RED boards. 

When the RUB series where first produced in Korea they used the left over boards from the Rubicons. Once those ran out they then used a BLUE board. Wether these were left over from the Reference days....I'm not sure. I'll ask Jaimie or GRahn.

I thought I was the resident Soundstream Guru? :blush:


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## deadbeat son (Feb 24, 2008)

GlasSman said:


> Actually the Reference lines used the Blue boards and the Rubicons used the RED boards.
> 
> When the RUB series where first produced in Korea they used the left over boards from the Rubicons. Once those ran out they then used a BLUE board. Wether these were left over from the Reference days....I'm not sure. I'll ask Jaimie or GRahn.
> 
> I thought I was the resident Soundstream Guru? :blush:


So what's the story on the USA series amps with the flag PCBs? When were they made? Prior to sellout? If so, were they the budget amps compared to the Reference series? I just don't recall when or where they fit in the lineup. I think I had already abandoned car audio by this time...

-JP


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## deserte4gle (Mar 5, 2008)

> Desterte4gle wrote;
> 'Reference series VS D.series???
> of course reference series is the best.... low end for the reference series already powerfull and clean.....
> In the other words, high-end D.series equal to Low-end reference series..... hhihihihihihi.... '
> ...


Bro, i'm talking about now days soundstream not the old school one... 
Di475.1(D2 series) and reference series.... D2 series is made in china but reference series still made in USA.... thats why i said high-end D2 equal to Low-end reference.... i thought the topic is about now days soundstream.... 
If old school soundstream i won't comment this thread coz i'm totally out of it...coz last time i'm more into performance and zero knowledge in I.C.E... now i'm into I.C.E... but not that great... do correct me if i'm wrong...


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## Nology (Apr 14, 2008)

deadbeat son said:


> So what's the story on the USA series amps with the flag PCBs? When were they made? Prior to sellout? If so, were they the budget amps compared to the Reference series? I just don't recall when or where they fit in the lineup. I think I had already abandoned car audio by this time...
> 
> -JP



USA series was out around 96. I guess they had some problems and werent as reliable. I know they werent cheap though. I had a new in box USA 180 that I just sold on ebay for $150. the original price tag was still on the box from 96. Price new was $259.99


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## deadbeat son (Feb 24, 2008)

Nology said:


> USA series was out around 96. I guess they had some problems and werent as reliable. I know they werent cheap though. I had a new in box USA 180 that I just sold on ebay for $150. the original price tag was still on the box from 96. Price new was $259.99


What's the power rating on that amp? 50x2 @ 4 ohms 90x2 @ 2? If so, $259.99 sounds like a "budget" amp from those days to me! IIRC, most companies sold their 25x2 2ohm stable flagship lines for $250ish and their 25x2 1 or 1/2 ohm stable amps for $500 or $550.

-JP


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

GlasSman said:


> Rubicon 102/202/302/502/702/1002/204/404/604/805/555/355/10.2/5.2
> 
> All REAL Rubicons


Add the Picasso, Renoir, 405 to that list also.


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## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

*This thread is making me sad, should have never sold mine, and now I don't have the money to get replacements.*


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

deserte4gle said:


> Bro, i'm talking about now days soundstream not the old school one...
> Di475.1(D2 series) and reference series.... D2 series is made in china but reference series still made in USA.... thats why i said high-end D2 equal to Low-end reference.... i thought the topic is about now days soundstream....
> If old school soundstream i won't comment this thread coz i'm totally out of it...coz last time i'm more into performance and zero knowledge in I.C.E... now i'm into I.C.E... but not that great... do correct me if i'm wrong...


The Power Akoustic owned Soundstream only uses the older terminology and name for marketing purposes and to appeal to people that have farmiliarity with the brand.

The TRUE enthusiasts aren't fooled by marketing. 

You CANNOT compare a D series amp of the late 80's/early 90's to an amp that was released by Power Akoustic and made in Asia....theres just no comparison. 

The new stuff is all Chinese cookie cutter garbage.

Some of it is USUABLE garbage....but garbage nonetheless when taking into consideration the once great SOUNDSTREAM name.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Blazemore said:


> Add the Picasso, Renoir, 405 to that list also.


Oh HOW did I know you would chime in? 

I'll also add:

D'Artaganan

501/

LilWonder/LilWonder4/Angina/Angina4/Davinci/Tarantula


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

GlasSman said:


> Oh HOW did I know you would chime in?
> 
> I'll also add:
> 
> ...


I'm always looking over your shoulder  

No, those aren't the real Rubi's, but I'd take 501, Davinci, and Tarantula thou.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

So, after reading all of this, my plans for using a Ref705*s* are they crushed??? 

I already have someone willing to make mods for me, on it.... before it "smokestreams"


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## Royo (Oct 31, 2007)

what can you tell me about SS Reference 604 ??? it's a nice or a bad amp?


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> So, after reading all of this, my plans for using a Ref705*s* are they crushed???
> 
> I already have someone willing to make mods for me, on it.... before it "smokestreams"


It's hit or miss with the S series. Not all of them blew up. LOL! If you were planning to push it hard, I'l probably recommend against it. If you were planning to just power some active components it might be worth a shot. No, I would not run all four channels into 2 ohms and the sub at 1 ohm. You could be playing with fire--literally.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

Royo said:


> what can you tell me about SS Reference 604 ??? it's a nice or a bad amp?


It's an excellent amp. I enjoyed mine until someone stole it and enjoyed it without me. There are no problems with the regular Reference series. It's a sweet amp and puts out a lot more than 60 watts per channel. SS rates it at 100x4 at 14.4 volts and thats at 4 ohms! They are sweet sounding monsters!


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Royo said:


> what can you tell me about SS Reference 604 ??? it's a nice or a bad amp?


Keep all channels at 4 ohms higher on the muti channel amps and you should be ok.

If you need subwoofer duty use one of the bigger 2 channel amps. 

This has always worked for me....as I've never experienced the Smokestream......well I did once, but it was MY fault.


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## Royo (Oct 31, 2007)

ok. thanks

I will use de Reference 604 to bi-amp a MB Quart PVF 216.. no sub in this amp. 

for bass I"ll use a Fosgate 250x2 and Infinity Kappa Perfect 12.1.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

GlasSman said:


> Keep all channels at 4 ohms higher on the muti channel amps and you should be ok.
> 
> If you need subwoofer duty use one of the bigger 2 channel amps.
> 
> This has always worked for me....as I've never experienced the Smokestream......well I did once, but it was MY fault.


I never found this to be a problem with non-S models. I ran my 604 all day long with low impedance loads and no problems-ever. I think the 604 was phased out before the S and SX series. I thought it became the 644s which means any 604 should be a non smokey one.


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

Absolutely great to see all of the SS information and to see the respect for their early products! I was an ardent SS fan since they first came out and originally used a D50 running the fronts with a bridged Harmon Kardon CA250 running the subs. I well remember the great reviews the original D200 got. But when I upgraded, after the original system got ripped off, the new D200 II had just come out and I really liked the compression fittings, for speaker, power, and ground, a lot more than the older screw down clamps. But you could always tell the quality of the better SS amps, just from looking at them. They were solid as a rock, with none of the silly frills that they and others started adding later on.

However, I just couldn't bring myself to cut up the car or amps to make them fit how I had in mind at the time. So, except for some very brief San Diego KGB Skyshow parking lot tailgate use, they have remained in their boxes to this day. A few years ago, for my last Skyshow tailgate, I mounted them in bridged mode on some white finished particle board along with a bridged Rubicon 404. I even used a Jacobs 12V/50amp Accuvolt, that had also been collecting dust, to run the D200's. The D200 II's ran some home system Infinity Reference bookshelves and the 404 ran a pair of custom built ported Infinity Beta 10.dvc boxes with custom spiked feet. It was the best sound I have ever had in twenty or so years at the Skyshow. A fitting way to go out.

I currently use a SS Rubicon 204 and a 502, which have been absolutely trouble free and have always sounded great. However, I am working on a project car in which I may try to incorporate a D200 II for the fronts (for historical purposes) because I have figured out how to mount them without having to drill holes in the car or the amp support rails. I hope it will work as I would love to be able to mix them in with the newer stuff (Xtants 1.1i's and JL HD400/4). The king is dead, long live the KING!!!


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## HIS4 (Oct 6, 2005)

Old school Soundstream amps were awesome. Anything after the original Rubicons were basically crap. I had an old Grantie 60.2 running a pair of Boston separates and a JL10W1 (the original one) mixed mono with their passive crossover network for mixed mono applications. You could fry an egg on that amp it got so hot but it never shut down. I even had it running 2 ohms stereo for front and rear and 4 ohm mono for the sub at the same time and it still never shut down.


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## rockytophigh (Apr 16, 2008)

I had a MC500 running 4 JL 10's and a set of Boston Pros in a Prelude that was simply freaking awesome. I really miss that amp.....so I replaced it with the little baby in my sig  

I'm gonna start collecting these amps I think. Someone find me a Widowmaker ASAP please lol. I know, good luck right!!!

OLD SCHOOL SOUNDSTREAM.....BEST AMPS EVER


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Blazemore said:


> I'm always looking over your shoulder
> 
> No, those aren't the real Rubi's, but I'd take 501, Davinci, and Tarantula thou.


Why aren't the Lil Wonders and 501 "real" Rubis?


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## rockytophigh (Apr 16, 2008)

I should add that after researching them, I added a Soundstream Van Gogh 500.4 to my Toyota 4x4. It is everything and a bag of chips!!!


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

capnxtreme said:


> Why aren't the Lil Wonders and 501 "real" Rubis?


he was refereing to the Lil Wonders and the Anginas since they use the cheaper speaker and power fittings.....and used more gimmick to sell them.

Other than that they are the same.

The Lil Wonder is just a Rubicon 202 renamed for marketing purposes.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Cool, I was hoping one of you sluts would respond. I see the terminals are different now.


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## theonion (May 27, 2005)

The problem with the S and SX has to do with the automation of the switch between high power and high current mode. The pre S/SX Reference series amps have a manual switch which you would place in high power mode if you wanted to maximize power output at "normal" impedances. In order to make them stable down to lower impedances you would switch it into high current mode. SS had problems with people either not understanding this switch or abusing it to try to get higher power (leaving it in high power mode and bridging down to 1ohm etc...) and people were smoking a lot of amps themselves. With the S and SX they made this switching automatic. The problem was it didn't always work right and you'd let the smoke out.

That's why it was said earlier that the S and SX are likely fine at "normal" impedances (4ohms, 2ohm stereo probably fine too)

Somebody else correct me if I'm off in left field on this one. 

PS - I LOVE my Ref 604!!


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

GlasSman said:


> he was refereing to the Lil Wonders and the Anginas since they use the cheaper speaker and power fittings.....and used more gimmick to sell them.
> 
> Other than that they are the same.
> 
> The Lil Wonder is just a Rubicon 202 renamed for marketing purposes.


Yep. I got to do some beta testing on the Lil Wonder. Joe wanted me to use it on my sub so I powered an IDQ12 v.2 with it and that thing wanged!


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

capnxtreme said:


> Cool, I was hoping one of you sluts would respond. I see the terminals are different now.


That and they were not part of the original SS Rubicon line-up.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Blazemore said:


> That and they were not part of the original SS Rubicon line-up.


Rubicon era started 1998.

Lil' Wonder and Angina were introduced in the 1999 lineup.


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

GlasSman said:


> Rubicon era started 1998.
> 
> Lil' Wonder and Angina were introduced in the 1999 lineup.


Yes that's what I mean, Lil' Wonder, Angina, 501 etc. came after. All the adds I've seen put the Lil' Wonder at Nov.98 thou.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Yeah, ads were late 98 and they debuted at CES in 99.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Blazemore said:


> Yes that's what I mean, Lil' Wonder, Angina, 501 etc. came after. All the adds I've seen put the Lil' Wonder at Nov.98 thou.


I'm going by the brochures.

I have the 1998 and 1999 catalogs. Don't have my mags tossed about like I just bought them.

Are you thumbing through your mags WISHING it was 1999?


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

GlasSman said:


> I'm going by the brochures.
> 
> I have the 1998 and 1999 catalogs. Don't have my mags tossed about like I just bought them.
> 
> Are you thumbing through your mags WISHING it was 1999?


No only add easy to find on the net is http://www.techednetworks.com/webdesign/soundstream/ads/lw.jpg If it's correct then they were in stores '98. But it may have turned out like Q-Sound stated. It really doesn't matter never cared for them after the lame advertising. What amps you have?...oh "Lil' Wonders"...something just doesn't sound right. 

I can't even find half of my mags, think the wifie found them first


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## alg_alg (Jun 13, 2006)

i love my soundstream amps.

i have a reference 300 and 700s powering my sub and frontstage respectively. both were repaired but hey, they're working fine!


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## normandie (Apr 4, 2008)

First post here. I wished I have searched before buying a used Soundstream Rubicon RUB600-4. Now i know it's the 2nd gen Rubicon and not the good one. Would the RUB600-4 be good enough to power a set of PG 6.5 RSD's active?


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## mattldm (Apr 27, 2006)

How do the newer Soundstream amps compare to some of the "big" name brands like Rockford, JL, Kicker, or MTX, as far as power output (above or below rated power), SQ, reliability???


PCX700D 2008 Picasso
TRX700D 2008 Tarantula
PCA1000D 2007??
How do any of these compare to each other, Soundstream does not give much info to differentiate between the lines. 

The PCX and TRX amps are only $10 difference in price and most specs look identical, whats the difference!?


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

I will say...the new SS amps do rated power or better. I installed several of the 2007 Tarantula amps.

They aren't bad amps for what they are.....just nothing special.

And not comparable to old SS.....also indistinguishable from countless other OEM China designs.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

MC amps FTW!!!!


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