# Tuning Horn help



## roduk (Sep 19, 2008)

Hi all I have a nice horn system which I have been running with an Alto UCS Pro and it sounded nice, I have since bought a McIntosh MX5000 HU and have decided to go the full analogue route, so I have got hold of a set of Rane/USD 30 band Eq's and 3 way crossover, the older rack mount jobs that were in the Buick Grand National.

Currently running - 

MX5000 > Rane 30 band EQ > Rane AC23 outputs 3 way

McIntosh MC4000M 

> 2 x 300w into 18Sound 6ND430 in doors
> 2 x 100w into B&C DE250 Drivers on ID Large body horns

McIntosh MC443M 

> Velodyne DF10sc in dash

I have a pair of EMIT tweeters that I was using when the Alto UCS Pro was installed, but thought I would try without these and just run the horns.

Those of you that know the Rane AC23 will know that it has time delay on each channel bar the sub channels, so I can set this, but it's not easy to do as it only has markings of 0 to 6... I can hear it move the stage by ear so have done it that way. Now when I use this delay to move the stage it creates a huge lump out of the RTA curve on that side - should I retune this back to the curve I'm after with the RTA?

I can get a really nice curve quite easily, but sound staging and image precision is my thing and I wondered if I should be setting this up from the drivers seat? the centre? and also in what order I should be doing things?

I'm after a competition worthy system and have done everything I can to get it as good as I possibly can, but wondered how the pros would layout the tuning journey?

Anyquestions just ask?


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Well the delay in the AC23 is an all pass filter and it is just phase alignment.

Levels, then crossover points, then phase (including the delays in the AC23), then EQ. You should do separate l & R if you are after the best results, how you place the mic is determined by single seater or two seat system. For single its all in the drivers side and for 2 seat, left side from the left seat and right side from the right seat. Use a moving mic and 10 second averages for best results, move the mic in figure 8 motion the size of your head with the tip of mic in the plane where the tip of your nose would be in a listening Position.

Do you have an IASCA CD or autosound 2000 test disc? These are very useful for setting the phase/polarity of the system for best imaging and sq.

Eric


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## roduk (Sep 19, 2008)

Thanks for the reply Eric, appreciate it.


Eric Stevens said:


> Well the delay in the AC23 is an all pass filter and it is just phase alignment.
> 
> Levels, then crossover points, then phase (including the delays in the AC23), then EQ.
> 
> Eric


Ok superb, Thats the way I have done it, Levels first, then Xover points then phase - now I did notice that one of my mids was out of phase on the RTA as there was a dip in the mid bass region when both were playing, so flipped that and it has the punch back. Re crossover points - I have the B&C DE250 Drivers, do you have experience with X/O points? They recommend 1.6 which seems very high, I'm sure with the Alto I was running them down to 800 without problems... What are your Large horn bodies capable of going down to?

Should I try to flip the phase on both mids as you have advised before to see if the stage height is raised? and _then_ use the Rane delay?



Eric Stevens said:


> You should do separate l & R if you are after the best results, how you place the mic is determined by single seater or two seat system. For single its all in the drivers side and for 2 seat, left side from the left seat and right side from the right seat. Use a moving mic and 10 second averages for best results, move the mic in figure 8 motion the size of your head with the tip of mic in the plane where the tip of your nose would be in a listening Position.
> 
> Eric


No problem, single seater, so all done from Drivers seat, I will move the mic about, but I don't have true RTA, only an audiocontrol so can't move and visualise at the same time, I'll have to just move it around it steps. One other thing, when RTA'ing should I put a couple of pillows or similar to emulate my body sat in the drivers seat? It seems a bit empty over there and because the car is so small (914) It will make a difference surely?



Eric Stevens said:


> Do you have an IASCA CD or autosound 2000 test disc? These are very useful for setting the phase/polarity of the system for best imaging and sq.
> 
> Eric


I have IASCA 2008 and various Stereofile CD's, also the EMMA Cd, but not autosound - Would it be useful to download a tone CD?

Thanks for your help


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

roduk said:


> Thanks for the reply Eric, appreciate it.
> 
> Ok superb, Thats the way I have done it, Levels first, then Xover points then phase - now I did notice that one of my mids was out of phase on the RTA as there was a dip in the mid bass region when both were playing, so flipped that and it has the punch back. Re crossover points - I have the B&C DE250 Drivers, do you have experience with X/O points? They recommend 1.6 which seems very high, I'm sure with the Alto I was running them down to 800 without problems... What are your Large horn bodies capable of going down to?
> 
> ...


So to speed up the set up for imaging use the IASCA CD to get the polarity of the system as best as possible before EQ. 

First use track 3 and mute the mids and subs and set any delay in the rane to minimum, then with horns only listen to her placement when she is in phase and out of phase, if more focused when she says shes out of phase reverse polarity on the right horn.

Next mute the horns and subs and set any delay in the rane to minimum, then with mids only listen to her placement when she is in phase and out of phase, if more focused when she says shes out of phase reverse polarity on the right mid.

Dont do this with the sub 

Next using track 12 with the three voices left center and right listen to stage height. If high and good all the way across your golden if not reverse the polarity on both horns. Leave the polarity where you get the best height on left and right sides of the sound stage (minimum rainbow effect).

From here you can use the delays in the rane to fine tune and improve things.

Once you are done with the front end get the sub blending its best and move onto equalization.

Eric


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## funkalicious (Oct 8, 2007)

Subd


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

i at one time had this all written down and lost it


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

Hmm interesting thread, need this to optimize my MH. Thank you


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## roduk (Sep 19, 2008)

Thanks for the second post Eric, I'll action those points this afternoon and report back


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## roduk (Sep 19, 2008)

Ok, well it took longer than that afternoon I promised, but I'm now getting there..






























Eric Stevens said:


> So to speed up the set up for imaging use the IASCA CD to get the polarity of the system as best as possible before EQ.
> 
> First use track 3 and mute the mids and subs and set any delay in the rane to minimum, then with horns only listen to her placement when she is in phase and out of phase, if more focused when she says shes out of phase reverse polarity on the right horn.
> 
> ...



So I now have set up the gains using an O'scope and then l/r levels on the Ranes - these things are good  I moved the delay on the sub channels internally to the high output, so I have analogue delay on the mid bass and the horns. The EMIT tweeters are running on the same output on the rane as the horns and I had them playing from 8k up. So with tweeters disconnected and just horns playing I can get with the Rane delay a strong centre image and same goes for the mid bass. Add the tweeters in and it pulled the top end of the stage over to the left, so adjust the amp gain to turn down the left tweeter and it's Golden again, but with real 'air' to the stage. It was sounding good before running the Alto UCS pro, but this is so much more 'musical' now. 

So what EQ tips can you give me? Thanks so far 

EDIT - One other question,, As you can see I'm using McIntosh amplification all round, but I'm having a full set of Soundstream Rubicon Class A amps fettled by Gordon Taylor of Genesis fame (And he's getting the Class A 10.2 flat to 10hz to run the Velodyne too ) so I could use these instead - maybe these old Class A beauties would sound lovely on a set of horns and EMITS - anyone had any experience of SS Class A on horns here??


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## monkeyboy (Jun 12, 2007)

I am running a class A Picasso on my horns right now. It sounds great.

Unfortunately it's not in my 914...


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## roduk (Sep 19, 2008)

monkeyboy said:


> I am running a class A Picasso on my horns right now. It sounds great.
> 
> Unfortunately it's not in my 914...


Oh nice, what CD's and are you running it bridged? I was going to use two channels for the tweeters - will it be enough power?

Do you have a 914?


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## monkeyboy (Jun 12, 2007)

I am running it in 4 channel mode. The two fronts run my CD-1 Comp horns, and the 2 rear channels run my rear speakers.

And yes, I do own a 914.

I'd love to see how you mounted your horns. Especially the driver's side. How did you clear the fuse block and front trunk pull.


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## lsm (Mar 11, 2009)

Horns, McIntosh & Velodyne in a 914...get out of my head! LOL 
Always wanted to do that!! I would love to hear this someday. 
I'm trying to tune my car right now as well so thanks for posting the topic. Eric's an alright guy...


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## roduk (Sep 19, 2008)

monkeyboy said:


> I am running it in 4 channel mode. The two fronts run my CD-1 Comp horns, and the 2 rear channels run my rear speakers.
> 
> And yes, I do own a 914.
> 
> I'd love to see how you mounted your horns. Especially the driver's side. How did you clear the fuse block and front trunk pull.


I moved the fusebox to fit behind the horn and relocated the trunk pull.. I'll try to source some pics..

I have now fitted the Soundstream Class A set and they beat the Mac for SQ by a big margin - far more depth to the stage (way out the bottom of the screen) and bizarreley I no longer need the EMIT tweeters for top end - on the macs I hit a wall at 18k (as expected with the large bodied horns) but with the Class A amps they play higher, smoother and with more detail. I'm pretty shocked tbh.. So yet again, the car is being rebuilt!


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## monkeyboy (Jun 12, 2007)

Crazy.


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