# Install Pics of Horns



## Mic10is

With enough questions around about how to mount horns etc...

If you have horns installed, please post pics.

If you want to post a couple pics of the install process, thats cool too

I'll Start

Version 2 of my Integra Install from around 2001

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Most Recent version of BMW Install-MECA Finals Champion









BMW Install -IASCA Finals Champion 2005 (debut of the car)










Winslow's (hatedguy) install from 2001 IASCA Finals









My wife Lori's Install from her 1st IASCA Finals in 2001 (4th place)
Horn is a mini Tractrix horn, one off design, loaded with ID NX30 Tweets


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## ClinesSelect

CD1PRO on mini-bodies.


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B&C DE500 on ID full size.


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Modified full size ID bodies.


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These are what I have tried just in this truck.


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Alternative to underdash horns. Waveguides on the dash using the BMS 4540ND.


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## mattyjman

Illusion Audio Carbon Horns/B&C DE500 Compression Drivers -- Mid Install Pics in 2010 FJ Cruiser


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## [email protected]

Whats the deal with the added round piece at the bottom of the opening?


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## ClinesSelect

The HOMster! (or How I Learned How to Fix a Horn) - diyAudio


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## Mic10is

Mounting Horns in my old Eclipse

1/4" Steel L bracket held in place with screws and panel adhesive









Thick backstrapped used to support inside of horn









pass side L bracket









mounting hardware









Driver side horn mounted









pass side mounted


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## mikey7182

Illusion CH-1/B&C DE500 in a 2005 Dodge Magnum (2118 in sealed kicks):


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## thehatedguy

I have a few more of the Accord that I can post up...including some cutting of the inner fender to get the compression drivers partly outside the car.


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## mattyjman

Mic10is said:


> BMW Install -IASCA Finals Champion 2005 (debut of the car)


What the speakers you have in the kicks there? Is that a ID sub?


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## thehatedguy

Special built midbasses on top. Motor from Illusion Nd-12 on IDQ8 drivetrain.

Below is a Genesis version of the 5" Revelator.


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## req

i got some pics of mine, lemme find some stuff!


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## Mic10is

thehatedguy said:


> Special built midbasses on top. Motor from Illusion Nd-12 on IDQ8 drivetrain.
> 
> Below is a Genesis version of the 5" Revelator.


yeh what he said. the 8s were badass but having kids is expensive so they were sold a few years back to someone on this forum.


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## thehatedguy

Nah....lol.




Mic10is said:


> having kids is expensive


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## req

Mic10is said:


> yeh what he said. the 8s were badass but having kids is expensive so they were sold a few years back to someone on this forum.


yeaaa. i almost bought them. but i had regular IDQ8's so i couldnt trick myself to doing it


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## tRidiot

Quite an interesting read on the HOMster there, but it gets way over my head really quick. Interesting though... might be able to reproduce his results without even having the knowledge/experience to back it up. Thanks Patrick for a wonderfully-documented experiment!


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## thehatedguy

Not for the taint of heart when it comes to cutting metal.

First picture is of the old CD2 driver poking out of the fender well of my old Accord. These were on minibodies and I would have put them further back (actually had the horn body outside of the car) but this is as far as I could go without rubbing my tires during a lock to lock turn. The white stuff you see is the paint and primer that I ground away. The entire area was taken down to bare metal. It was later painted black to blend everything in and prevent rust.

Next I tapped the motors up really well. Waxed the tape a few times with mold release wax. Then as a final precaution I spray glued the trunkliner to the motors. The spray glue served two purposes- to physically hold the fabric in place while I mounted the drivers and being petroleum based, the soon to come resin would cause it to peel from the tape on the drivers. So that got saturated with resin. There were no dry looking spots left.

Third picture is the same motor with a few (lol) layer of glass on it. I think it ended up being almost a half inch thick when it was done.

And after it all dried for a few days with the motor in place to prevent shrinkage, I pulled the motor out of the mess. And I was left with a perfect mold of the motor to rest on sitting outside of the car.

I think this was like 2003 or late 2002 when I did this.


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## mattyjman

i kinda thought it before but now i know it... you are CRAZY


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## Mic10is

mattyjman said:


> i kinda thought it before but now i know it... you are CRAZY


pssst , thats nothing...look again at the pics of the horn install in my Eclipse

anything look "different" about the Clutch location?


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## thehatedguy

But wait, there is more...loL

Never before posted pictures of a couple dash rebuilds that never saw completion.



mattyjman said:


> i kinda thought it before but now i know it... you are CRAZY


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## Mic10is

thehatedguy said:


> But wait, there is more...loL
> 
> Never before posted pictures of a couple dash rebuilds that never saw completion.


break out the idq10 in the glove box!!


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## thehatedguy

What, this one?





Mic10is said:


> break out the idq10 in the glove box!!


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## mattyjman

yes please... i like showing my wife this stuff so she can think i'm a bit more normal than the "average" guy on here... it really goes a long way with her.


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## Brian_smith06

I am getting way too many ideas right now


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## Mic10is

thehatedguy said:


> What, this one?


to think, if you woulda just vented it out through a fender that coulda worked awesome

you still got the AP IDQ8s in the door panels?


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## thehatedguy

The fun hasn't started yet...lol.



Brian_smith06 said:


> I am getting way too many ideas right now


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## thehatedguy

Anyone want to guess what happens when you are slow at work, you work at a car audio shop, and have already stripped the vinyl off of your dash gets you?


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## Mic10is

thehatedguy said:


> Anyone want to guess what happens when you are slow at work, you work at a car audio shop, and have already stripped the vinyl off of your dash gets you?


a car sitting in the garage with half a built dash for months bc its too damn cold out to work on it now???


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## Brian_smith06

thehatedguy said:


> The fun hasn't started yet...lol.


the ID guys are bad enough.(ask Will or Mic) but now seeing this is making my thoughts fly


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## thehatedguy

<- is an ID guy as Mic.

Hell, I'm a mod on the ID site...lol.


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## thehatedguy

If you pictured something like this, then you would be on the right track.


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## Brian_smith06

thehatedguy said:


> <- is an ID guy as Mic.
> 
> Hell, I'm a mod on the ID site...lol.


Lol well you know what I'm working with then lol I'll pm you my new install that's coming up real soon for will and I


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## thehatedguy

But then that was boring and some material had to go so you could get a better picture of the mids on the dash. And while we are in there, let's fix the bottom of the dash too.

So this happened:


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## thehatedguy

And that turned into this:

And for JOey KNapp...the sticker on the tool box says Audio Illusions. g0a (Joey and I were working on this)


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## thehatedguy

And they got roughed in to something like this on top:


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## thehatedguy

More glass, filler, and sanding....gets you this:


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## [email protected]

So, what you are saying is, you should have been doing actual work instead of screwing around with your car??? ;-)


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## thehatedguy

This was afterhours....lol.


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## thehatedguy

So where do the gauges go?

In the middle silly. Can see some of the metal rods that were going to be used to make shapes for the grill cloth too. Notice no black glass in the car...there is a reason for that...lol.


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## thehatedguy

Say hello to Joey and the sawall.


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## Brian_smith06

Are those 10s or 12s? I'm guessing 12s since thats what I really really want to do


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## thehatedguy

12s...I had to supersize that since everything else was getting bigger.


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## Mic10is

cant believe you held out on these pics till now.....


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## Brian_smith06

Grr lucky. I could do a trio of 10's but the best I could do with 12's is 2. I suppose I could do a pair of OS IDQ 15s or even the W!


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## [email protected]

What Joey was REALLY thinking was, how can I incorporate a skate ramp into this back deck!


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## thehatedguy

The 12s turned into this:


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## thehatedguy

Yeap, 4 IDW 15s behind the rear seat that still functioned.

But I digress, this is about horns...


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## TREETOP

thehatedguy said:


> The 12s turned into this:


Oh SNAP.


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## [email protected]

Is that the blue RF spray on damping material in the trunk?


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## thehatedguy

So the factory gauges looked like ass...so change them.

So I did this:

All of the blue wires were the extensions from the factory harness to move the cluster over.


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## thehatedguy

eDead v4

Was left over from years before.




JOey Knapp said:


> Is that the blue RF spray on damping material in the trunk?


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## Brian_smith06

thehatedguy said:


> The 12s turned into this:


WTF!!!!! WILL!!!!!!!! WE NEED TO TALK


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## thehatedguy

In the mean time I finished the trunk, which turned out like this:


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## thehatedguy

That baffle curved around the trunk opening and I made the whole trim panel for under the deck lid. That's real Mercedes carpet back there.


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## thehatedguy

The whole trunk was made out of wood except for around the tail lights, which was glass. The vinyl panel was separate from the carpet and it sat flush against the carpet.

I have pictures of the whole build, but this is about horns...lol


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## thehatedguy

Here:


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## thehatedguy

But nothing stays forever...and it all got redone.

The dash was too 1988 Camaro for me. And it was redone. I got picked up by Zapco and the trunk was redone.

Have to dig up the last dash rebuild pictures.


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## thehatedguy

Plus the irony was I was working for Freemans Car Stereo at the time but working on my car at Audio Illusions and had an AI plexi logo in the trunk the whole time. Somewhere in the middle of this I was fired from Freemans and started window tinting.


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## [email protected]

thehatedguy said:


> Plus the irony was I was working for Freemans Car Stereo at the time but working on my car at Audio Illusions and had an AI plexi logo in the trunk the whole time. Somewhere in the middle of this I was fired from Freemans and started window tinting.



So, now Joey works there and you are going to open your own shop and he will go work on the crz there?lol..

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thehatedguy

Word...lol.


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## BowDown

For some reason I thought horn installs would kind of take the place of the defroster vents and aim off the windshield. 

Staging really works well being aimed at your legs from under the dash?


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## Mic10is

BowDown said:


> For some reason I thought horn installs would kind of take the place of the defroster vents and aim off the windshield.
> 
> Staging really works well being aimed at your legs from under the dash?


Yes, read the other horn threads to understand how they work.
the few people who have put them firing up or anywhere near glass, have not gotten them to work optimally bc of the massive amount of reflections


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## BowDown

Ya, the windshield is a scary place. Just figured bouncing them off so close to the dash might limit the weird reflections.


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## rawdawg

Reflections? Maybe that's how you'll get an MS-8 to work with the horns.


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## SQram

Mic10is said:


> Yes, read the other horn threads to understand how they work.
> the few people who have put them firing up or anywhere near glass, have not gotten them to work optimally bc of the massive amount of reflections


I can think of a few people that made it work very well...

Granted, it is no easy feat, but it can and has been done.


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## thehatedguy

The problem (as a broad statement) with defroster locations is they are in a very narrow location. Often times due to the controlled disspersion it is hard to get a horn car to really image much further past the physical location of the horn.


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## TREETOP

I'll have to look for more pictures to see if I can find any with a more direct angle, but here are a couple pics of my minibodies under my dash. I know I took some pics specifically of the horns but I'm not sure where they got off to.

Passenger side with 8" in the door:









Driver's side (note relocated OBD port and missing parking brake and release):









Driver's side with 10" in the door (and grill temporarily removed):









Driver's side with door grill back on:









Both horns visible with center console removed:


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## req

i know i got pictures of my old saturn somewhere too. ill get them on here soon. not as cool as some of the o\s id guys, but i like it, even though it looks like this right now...


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## Mic10is

SQram said:


> I can think of a few people that made it work very well...
> 
> Granted, it is no easy feat, but it can and has been done.


of the competitors that successfully mounted a production based horn and had decent success were Jerry Zeigler in a CRX and Randal Holdman in a Civic HB.
neither would do it again bc the physical distance from the horn is lessened. 
They end up sounding very in your face and forward.

Now if you want to count someone like Mark Elderidge in the group, who custom built and tweaked his own horn design, which was primarily a midrange horn--then fine--it can work.

but using a production based is more trouble than its worth and the downside is more than the upside.


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## veleno

Wow, great pictures!

req, I'm liking that 8" door pod too!

Just when you think you've decided on gear you see some pictures and start to wonder and change your mind


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## ncv6coupe

mikey7182 said:


> Illusion CH-1/B&C DE500 in a 2005 Dodge Magnum (2118 in sealed kicks):


Mikey, how wide are your outermost boundaries of your soundstage? Your install is similar to the old school ones on the USD site where they aren't as wide as possible. I was thinking about that Ambiophonics test Patrick Bateman did and was wondering if you have that effect going on, even with horns???


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## ncv6coupe

and WOW just WOW TO thehatedguy and mic10is install pics from yesteryear. What ever did happen to the accord? Someone on the forum holding out to make a comeback in MECA 2011?


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## SQram

Mic10is said:


> of the competitors that successfully mounted a production based horn and had decent success were Jerry Zeigler in a CRX and Randal Holdman in a Civic HB.
> neither would do it again bc the physical distance from the horn is lessened.
> They end up sounding very in your face and forward.
> 
> Now if you want to count someone like Mark Elderidge in the group, who custom built and tweaked his own horn design, which was primarily a midrange horn--then fine--it can work.
> 
> but using a production based is more trouble than its worth and the downside is more than the upside.


Jim Adams, Patrick Gates, Eldridge (as you mentioned) and others I can't think of off the top of my head have done it successfully. 

I talked to Jim about moving the horns from below the dash, to firing up at the windshield and I remember him saying it was the single best improvement he made in his car over the years, soon after he won the IASCA Pro class at world finals back in the heydays.

Is it a hell of a lot of work, yes. Can it be done successfully, yes. Is it far easier to get optimal results under the dash....yes.


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## fredswain

Mic10is said:


> of the competitors that successfully mounted a production based horn and had decent success were Jerry Zeigler in a CRX and Randal Holdman in a Civic HB.
> neither would do it again bc the physical distance from the horn is lessened.
> They end up sounding very in your face and forward.
> 
> Now if you want to count someone like Mark Elderidge in the group, who custom built and tweaked his own horn design, which was primarily a midrange horn--then fine--it can work.
> 
> but using a production based is more trouble than its worth and the downside is more than the upside.


Jerry's CRX was built at Audio Designs in Houston while I worked there. Matt Borgardt rebuilt it. I remember those horns. They were not stock horns! They were custom built and very different. Matt built the molds out of mdf and fiberglass and made them in the shop. He heavily consulted with Eric Stevens about the design. I believe Eric ran the calculations and told Matt what to shoot for. Since Eric is a mod here he may be able to add to that info. They resembled the mini horns in design but the outer edges of the horns were wrapped around a corner to conform to the shape of the dash. Those horns also did not point up and did not couple to the windshield. They fired forward straight into the instrument cluster hump. Since the dash was completely rebuilt out, there was a matching hump made for the passenger side as well. 

A really strange feature of those horns was that the motors were not mounted to the horn bodies but rather under the dash above the footwells. They fired into a 12" long piece of 1" pvc pipe that was then attached to the horn throat. It should have sounded terrible but when done that car sounded incredible! Due to the horn mouths not loading well with the top of the dash or the windshield, they had to be crossed over quite high. Much higher than under the dash mounting. I believe he set them somewhere around 1800 to 2000 hz with the 8's in the floor playing up to that level. You'd have thought that the difference would have pulled the soundstage to the floor at lower frequencies but strangely enough that didn't happen. I have build pics of that car and of the horns lying around somewhere. It would take me a while to find them though.


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## req

That would be a sweet bunch of pics man!


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## Mic10is

fredswain said:


> Jerry's CRX was built at Audio Designs in Houston while I worked there. Matt Borgardt rebuilt it. I remember those horns. They were not stock horns! They were custom built and very different. Matt built the molds out of mdf and fiberglass and made them in the shop. He heavily consulted with Eric Stevens about the design. I believe Eric ran the calculations and told Matt what to shoot for. Since Eric is a mod here he may be able to add to that info. They resembled the mini horns in design but the outer edges of the horns were wrapped around a corner to conform to the shape of the dash. Those horns also did not point up and did not couple to the windshield. They fired forward straight into the instrument cluster hump. Since the dash was completely rebuilt out, there was a matching hump made for the passenger side as well.
> 
> A really strange feature of those horns was that the motors were not mounted to the horn bodies but rather under the dash above the footwells. They fired into a 12" long piece of 1" pvc pipe that was then attached to the horn throat. It should have sounded terrible but when done that car sounded incredible! Due to the horn mouths not loading well with the top of the dash or the windshield, they had to be crossed over quite high. Much higher than under the dash mounting. I believe he set them somewhere around 1800 to 2000 hz with the 8's in the floor playing up to that level. You'd have thought that the difference would have pulled the soundstage to the floor at lower frequencies but strangely enough that didn't happen. I have build pics of that car and of the horns lying around somewhere. It would take me a while to find them though.


Ive known Matt for over a decade, basically from when he left AD to goto ID. He has always said that the CRX used mini horns, maybe what he meant was that it used what would later become the mini horn design.
But he still maintains that it really did not work that well.
I dont rememeber Eric's opinion of it--but both Winslow and I have asked about doing that on many occasions and were both met with the same response--dont bother


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## fredswain

They were but they weren't mini horns. As I said they were basically mini horns that wrapped around a corner so the outer edges were different. Fundamentally they were mini's but they were still custom built for the job. The mini's were already on the market so they didn't lead to the mini's. They were definitely strongly based on the mini's. Matt also always modified the throat area of the horns. Even on standard horns. He'd pour a little bit of bondo into the throat to make a 45 degree angle in the back corner below the motors rather than having the rounded section that they come with.

Keep in mind anything I say here is based on experiences of about 13 or 14 years or so ago. I haven't been in audio for over 10 now and I'm sure some things have changed. Matt's opinions on the way to do things have probably changed as well too so if I ever say anything in other threads that seem contradictory to what Matt or others say, now you know why. If I can find those old pictures, I'll post them. I'm sure Matt would love to have them as well.

I thought that car sounded very nice. It was very dynamic with a very nice soundstage. It didn't work the way he originally intended it to though. Matt is a pretty picky guy. It doesn't matter if it technically can still be made to work good or not. If it is different from what he intended, he isn't going to be happy. He has some pretty high standards. He sat in that car tuning it for a very long time over several days. I never listened to that car from the standpoint of a sound quality judge with an IASCA disc so I can't comment on what it did or didn't do technically. For music and just all around rocking out, with what I listened to on it, it sounded really nice. 

Matt had the same problem with that car that I did with the horns in the top of the dash in my RX-7 in regards to the fiberglass. With our crazy heat here in the summer, anywhere there was bondo fill or places where multiple pieces of fiberglass were joined together, those places would expand and kill the finish. I had my dash out several times to fix it but to no avail. My horns were pointed straight up. Matt didn't like the idea and was dead set against it. He even told me not to waste my time! His hopes for the CRX were to get the horns up high but not get the issues with firing off of the windshield. He had other issues. Mine worked out decently but it didn't image as well as under dash mounting. It sure looked cool though! I had played around with clay above the horns to transition their shape to the windshield and this helped but didn't fix everything. I like the concept of horns that high if done well but am of the opinion that they need to be custom designed and built around the vehicle rather than being adapted to the top of a dash. Once I used clay to couple them to the dash, now I had one large horn that had no real flow to it in design. This lead to many problems. Matt was right but even a failure is a learning experience and I'm glad I did it. The assymmetical nature of my dash didn't help things. It's pretty easy to see why Mark Eldridge did what he did to make horns work in the dash. It required a completely new dash with horns designed specifically for it. If you are going to use standard off the shelf horns, leave them under the dash! I agree with Matt and Eric completely on this. Otherwise you are really going to have to go the route that Mark did and custom build them.


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## thehatedguy

Jerry's CRX as told to me by Eric a few months back only used the horns in the dash from like 12k and up. The paper coned IDQ8s with a coax mounted tweeter was the primary front stage in the car.


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## fredswain

Wow that was a huge change from when it was built! I never heard any of that but then again I've been out of audio for over 10 years now with little contact.


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## thehatedguy

Yeah they never could get the horns to work right...but left them in the car to get some creativity points.

But that didn't stop the some sound judges from commenting on how high the stage was because they knew the horns were up there.


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## Horsemanwill

Brian_smith06 said:


> I am getting way too many ideas right now


stop thinking you'll get a headache!



thehatedguy said:


> The fun hasn't started yet...lol.


don't encourage him grrrr



Brian_smith06 said:


> the ID guys are bad enough.(ask Will or Mic) but now seeing this is making my thoughts fly





thehatedguy said:


> <- is an ID guy as Mic.
> 
> Hell, I'm a mod on the ID site...lol.


thehatedguy is winslow on the board brian we been through this sheesh!


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## TXwrxWagon

I guess I should scan some old 5x7's this weekend. I've run the ID Comp 2's & CD-1s with success under the dash. Also, the Comp 2's "defroster style" with amazing results, regional titles to pat myself on the back... not that means much, but feels good anyway.. LOL

1995-1998, hey day for horn experimentation. Eric S., Femme, Eventually Matt were all great sources of instruction.

Hopefully Eric & others will start a Horn 101 sticky to get everyone who wants to experiment on the right track.

Rob


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## AccordUno

You know Winslow, I'm glad I stopped this madness when I did. Geez, I was thinking of redoing my dash in my accord, until I decided to get out when I could.. but now looking at that makes me want to hmm, cut into this Audi dash and throw a mid on there instead of pod.. 

So did you ever finish the accord?


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## thehatedguy

Nope, never finished it. It went without a working stereo for about 4 years.

After that dash build, I thought it was ugly and started another one...have pictures of that too.

Then got a family, no time to finish, and put the factory dash back in...drove it like that for a while and sold it before my daughter was born. There was no way I could safely put a baby seat in the back of that car, and the repairs were getting more expensive than the car was worth...so I traded it with nearly 320k miles on the clock and got the IS300 even though I didn't need a car payment.


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## P_4SPL

Well, glad to see there's a forum with a special forum for HLCD's...interested to see what people got, and will be posting picks of my install later as well.


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## HTX

TREETOP said:


> I'll have to look for more pictures to see if I can find any with a more direct angle, but here are a couple pics of my minibodies under my dash. I know I took some pics specifically of the horns but I'm not sure where they got off to.
> 
> Passenger side with 8" in the door:
> 
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> Driver's side (note relocated OBD port and missing parking brake and release):
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> Driver's side with 10" in the door (and grill temporarily removed):
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> Driver's side with door grill back on:
> 
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> 
> Both horns visible with center console removed:



how the hell did you get a 10" in there, I would LOVE to do that to my burb!


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## TREETOP

HTX said:


> how the hell did you get a 10" in there, I would LOVE to do that to my burb!


With a boatload of work and a lot of trial and error. Mostly trial, not much error, fortunately. 

It helped that I chose a 10" midbass/midrange that was only 3.15" deep, any deeper and I would have had to make major modifications to either the door panel or the window glass. LOL.

8s are a _LOT_ easier to get in there than 10s.


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## HTX

TREETOP said:


> With a boatload of work and a lot of trial and error. Mostly trial, not much error, fortunately.
> 
> It helped that I chose a 10" midbass/midrange that was only 3.15" deep, any deeper and I would have had to make major modifications to either the door panel or the window glass. LOL.
> 
> 8s are a _LOT_ easier to get in there than 10s.


im this close from buying a couple of peerless sls 8", think they will be easy ? i think they are 4" deep, also would you recommend any other 8" speakers for midbass? that dont require alot of modification?


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## TREETOP

HTX said:


> im this close from buying a couple of peerless sls 8", think they will be easy ? i think they are 4" deep, also would you recommend any other 8" speakers for midbass? that dont require alot of modification?


Easy? Meh. Easy is a relative term. 
A good match efficiency wise? Nope.
A good match frequency response wise? Nope.

You're suggesting an inefficient woofer that won't play well above 350hz, and asking if I'd have a recommendation for a better midbass. Yep.
I'd much rather run one of these:
8 INCH PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS from Parts Express ship same day and come with 45 day money back guarantee. Free Shipping Available. Order free 10,000 product catalog.
Or the Eighteen Sound 8NMB420 drivers that I have in my earlier pics. Those were a great match with horns, they're just not easy to find in the US.


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## pickup1

need to move it over alittle...


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## diebenkorn

Are there any horn users in New England or surrounding areas so I can hear the magic? You can pm me.


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## sqoverspl

pickup1 said:


> need to move it over alittle...


Where in tx are you? Is there a chance I could hear those horns sometime?


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## fish

HTX,

Also check out usspeakers.com. Thay have a pretty large selection of pro audio speakers.


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## pickup1

sqoverspl said:


> Where in tx are you? Is there a chance I could hear those horns sometime?


i work off beltline near irving mall,but live in roanoke..114 and 35...near tx. motor speedway...
that would be cool,might have my zuki in tomorrow....


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## req

Any more pics?? Ill try and get my old pictures soon.


----------



## req

heres a few pics from my old saturn, some kind of GM truck that was at a show that surprised me, and a few pics of a buddys car that i helped put CD2's and IDQ8's in a camry. yes that is me upside down in his seat. in hind sight, we should have just taken the seat out LOL.

truck i saw at a show;



























my old saturn;


----------



## req

camry, didnt get pics of the pods, but ill put them in here tomorrow;


----------



## sqoverspl

pickup1 said:


> i work off beltline near irving mall,but live in roanoke..114 and 35...near tx. motor speedway...
> that would be cool,might have my zuki in tomorrow....


Cool! Ill send you a pm sometime when ever I dont have so much stuff going on and hopefully youll be in the same situation


----------



## Jimi77

Here's some pics of my ID CD1pros Minis. Unfortunately the Jeep got into a fight with a pole and lost and has been sent to Jeep heaven.  :blush:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/182031/1999-jeep-cherokee


----------



## Patrick Bateman

I haven't removed a single screw in my current Accord, but that's mostly because I do these stereo projects for the fun of it. My car is basically a lab. So the cosmetics of my projects is absolutely abysmal, since I don't really keep anything for more than a few months, sometimes weeks.

With that said...









Four of the horns I've run. The one on the right is from my first Unity horn, from my '05 Accord. (Google "12 inch woofers in my dash".) The next one is a set of tractrix horns from my 2001 Accord. To the left of that could be my first or 2nd set of horns. I had that in a Hyundai Excel IIRC. That set of horns is about 12 or 13 years old. It was largely inspired by reading about the Buick Grand National. And to the left of that is a set of USD waveguides, which I simply bought to see if I was "in the ballpark" with my DIY efforts.









Looking down the throat. The construction is comic book backing boards and fiberglass. If you want to work with a lot of precision, comic book backing boards work pretty well. Nowadays I rarely work with such precision, because I've found that you can fudge things quite a bit as long as you follow a few rules. (Basically no sharp edges in a horn - the overall shape of the horn itself doesn't matter as much as I used to think it did.)

















My last set of horns from my 2001 Accord. This is taking "bigger is better" to an extreme obviously.









Mold for my oblate spheroidal waveguides, which I used for my first Unity horn. Again, comic book backing boards. Each slice was printed on a laser printer, then assembled into a mold. This is before I fiberglassed it, which is why it's wrapped in pantyhose.









I spent about ten days on this stupid mold and it didn't work. Note to self: *simpler is better.* I tried to mate a triangular mouth to an oblate spheroidal throat, with dismal results. The polar response of this waveguide was terrible.









Early Unity waveguide.









This is about as far as I could take the Unity concept in my car. At this point I started to get disillusioned with the entire concept of stereo. This system had great articulation and was very listenable, but it frustrated me that much simpler systems were able to throw a wider stage. (Which is why I'm screwing around with ambiophonics nowadays.)


----------



## rcurley55

Don't know if anyone wants to see these, but here are my old CD2neos on mini bodies in my E46 M3

Drivers









Driver's view









Passenger









In that last one you can see my old DVA-7996/PXA-H700 combo in a one-off double-din bezel


----------



## fish

rcurley55 said:


> Don't know if anyone wants to see these, but here are my old CD2neos on mini bodies in my E46 M3
> 
> Drivers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Driver's view
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Passenger
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In that last one you can see my old DVA-7996/PXA-H700 combo in a one-off double-din bezel


In that first pic did you use the strip of carpet between the horn & dash to help integrate the two better? Did you do the same on the passenger side?


----------



## rcurley55

yes, that was the idea - it was done on the pass side as well


----------



## Brian_smith06

That's what I plan to do with mine. Well I'll be using luxury liner pro since I still have 3 sheets of it


----------



## sqguy

does anyone have any horn install picsof a 5th Gen Accord, I own a pr of USD BC Horns and a 96 Accord and I'm looking for pics to giveme a ideal on how they would look installed in my car,


Thx in advance


Mike


----------



## quality_sound

thehatedguy said:


> If you pictured something like this, then you would be on the right track.


That is friggin awesome! I wish I had the balls to do that. And still worked in a shop so i had a place and the tools as well.


----------



## BowDown

I really need to hear a car with horns. I just can't see how that configuration would work well for staging.


----------



## turbo5upra

Ehh I'd love to hear one too, I'm impressed with my stage height for the tweeters being so low.


----------



## Mic10is

BowDown said:


> I really need to hear a car with horns. I just can't see how that configuration would work well for staging.


what are you confused about?

brief explanation

THe dash becomes and extension of the horn mouth. effectively making the entire dash one big horn. Sound travels up underside of the dash and then above the dash 
Energy/sound is also directed toward the middle providing a very solid focused center image.


----------



## BowDown

I can see the idea behind it... Still would like to hear a vehicle so I could prove it to myself. Just doesn't seem like something aimed at my knees could sound like it's coming from outside my windshield.


----------



## Mic10is

Come to the Baltimore Meet/Show and hopefully by Then I'll have a 2nd car and I'll throw my old horns in them for the weekend so you can take a listen


but I will caution you, right now your skepticism maybe creating a bias.

I encourage you to listen to cars without looking around to see where speakers are located. Let your ears tell you what you want to hear--not your eyes and your brain. 
People have a way to hearing what they want to hear and convincing themselves they are correct


----------



## subwoofery

Mic10is said:


> Come to the Baltimore Meet/Show and hopefully by Then I'll have a 2nd car and I'll throw my old horns in them for the weekend so you can take a listen
> 
> 
> but I will caution you, right now your skepticism maybe creating a bias.
> 
> I encourage you to listen to cars without looking around to see where speakers are located. Let your ears tell you what you want to hear--not your eyes and your brain.
> People have a way to hearing what they want to hear and convincing themselves they are correct


And prepare your wallet, most people that heard my car (and it's not fantastic and am still tuning) are trying to find a way to fit horns in their rides  

Kelvin


----------



## TREETOP

subwoofery said:


> And prepare your wallet, most people that heard my car (and it's not fantastic and am still tuning) are trying to find a way to fit horns in their rides
> 
> Kelvin


I've made a few converts as well.


----------



## turbo5upra

size 16's and stick wont mesh well with horns  baltimore meet????


----------



## req

TREETOP said:


> I've made a few converts as well.


lol, i have had quite a few people seriously confused hahah!

i just got done sanding down the throat of my mini lenses because there was a large bump on the outboard curve from the moulding process i never spotted. 

i even scored some reticulated foam at work and cut it up to fit in the lens for some testing that mr patrick bateman posted up here a while ago. lemme see if i can snag a pic.


----------



## Horsemanwill

them some sexi drivers


----------



## Brian_smith06

You have ultra'snow req? Nice. thats what I run(well will run) when horsemanwill and I can meet up


----------



## BowDown

Baltimore Meet? :lol:


----------



## Mic10is

BowDown said:


> Baltimore Meet? :lol:


Not sure where you are in NY, but assuming you arent way up there--youd prob only be 3.5-6hrs from Baltimore.

Which is less than the average amount many of us travel to compete on a regular basis

Majority of us going to the Blacksburg, VA meet are well over 4hours away

SO how badly do you need to hear horns and in general some really good sounding cars???

Ready to find out how yours stacks up?


----------



## turbo5upra

Blacksburg is a 10 hour trip for us. Dc is 6.5 -7 hours...... that would make Baltimore 5-5.5???




Mic10is said:


> Not sure where you are in NY, but assuming you arent way up there--youd prob only be 3.5-6hrs from Baltimore.
> 
> Which is less than the average amount many of us travel to compete on a regular basis
> 
> Majority of us going to the Blacksburg, VA meet are well over 4hours away
> 
> SO how badly do you need to hear horns and in general some really good sounding cars???
> 
> Ready to find out how yours stacks up?


----------



## BowDown

I'd love to see how my car stacks up. Depending on when it is. Guess I need to get a move on with my HU replacement. Lol.


----------



## req

did these for a buddy brian. they are aperodic enclosures with built in horn mounts on the top. in hind sight, i would have wanted them mounted more outboard - but the CD2 motors are so huge we couldnt get them any further out. they turned out fairly good for my first kick panel build i think though. it was a 90's camry.


----------



## voltij

**WE** did them buddy

also- first post! wooooooooooooo!!!


----------



## req

lol. welcome to the forum brian. long time no see! and yes, he did half the work, not including the sanding LOL.


----------



## voltij

req said:


> lol. welcome to the forum brian. long time no see! and yes, he did half the work, not including the sanding LOL.


the worst part is that the pictured kicks have IDQ8s in them, and then I put B&C 8s in, which required me to re-build the front of them, lol.


----------



## fish

Looks nice. But too bad you couldn't get the horns out further.


----------



## 95Legend

Very nice pictures to all of you!

I will try to dig up pictures from my old install. I ran a set of Image Dynamics CD3Ultra a while ago. Miss those drivers, but they were too big for my current car.


----------



## req

i could not get them to go back much further than they were before, maybe like a half of an inch or so. but they did go outboard a little more. and they are now level and plumb with each other. and they are ultra's instead of CD2's! I also put a few bits of CLD tiles on them to dampen the vibrations in the horn lens. I also covered them with some partsexpress grille cloth. all i have to do is make a transition from the dash to the driver side horn mouth. but i am going to worry about installing the door speakers first.


----------



## voltij

Three things:

1. Sweet
2. Thanks for helping earlier, you sure kept me motivated
3. My worklog/photolog is going up tomorrow evening


----------



## req

excite!!!


----------



## flexdmc

Looks slick


----------



## voltij

A little bit of shameless self promotion, but IMO the more people reading good worklogs the better...

I did a horn install in a 06 Mazda 3 that I'm proud of, you can find it in my worklog at the following link: 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...atchback-worklog-lots-pics-2.html#post1262607


----------



## req

thread i saw that was interesting with quite a few horn pics

HLCD Horn Speakers?? (56K Beware)


----------



## Eastman474

TREETOP said:


> I'll have to look for more pictures to see if I can find any with a more direct angle, but here are a couple pics of my minibodies under my dash. I know I took some pics specifically of the horns but I'm not sure where they got off to.
> 
> Passenger side with 8" in the door:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Driver's side (note relocated OBD port and missing parking brake and release):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Driver's side with 10" in the door (and grill temporarily removed):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Driver's side with door grill back on:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both horns visible with center console removed:


Doing my first set of horns in my 2000 sierra right now which as I'm sure you know is the same dash. Under drivers side did you have to cut that big brace out?

Here's my passenger side which I mounted today and cut and made baffles for my 2118h


----------



## bloobb

anyone in indiana with a horn install? i would love to wrap my ear around some


----------



## voltij

bloobb said:


> anyone in indiana with a horn install? i would love to wrap my ear around some


Which part?


----------



## slickone

bloobb said:


> anyone in indiana with a horn install? i would love to wrap my ear around some


I am and did...vehicle is dismantled now...but have something in works before summer is out

where about are you? i'm SW Indy near airport


----------



## bloobb

I'm in lafayette. I'm in between indy and chicago weekly, traveling for my job is constant. thus the car audio fascination 
I'm always down for a road trip


----------



## S3T

Why noone throws the horns on the dashboard? Perfect fit 



Now it's time to squeeze some pair of 6.5"s in each door and i'll be fine.


----------



## chevbowtie22

Man I can't wait till I can get started on my vette install. I'm looking forward to throwing in my CD1 Pro's soooo bad.


----------



## req

People don't put them in he dash like that because you are supposed to mould it to the contours of. The window and dashboard and a pillar. The diffraction off the edge of tour baffle ia not a good thing. Smooth it out and I will be impressed. =]


----------



## S3T

Another idea was to do use the whole dashboard/windshield as the waveguide, with small fix to the dashboard (a hump to fix the horn in "exponential" way):









+ to use 4 "tweeters" per channel. Kind of horizontal line array+horn. Probably there will be issues with higher frequencies, but i'm 3-way ready anyway.


Smoothing the things out... It's complicated with windshield, as i don't want to obstruct the viewsight. Dashboard could be easily smoothed as well as A-pillars.



Anyway, i haven't seen any underdash install with all the edges smoothed-out


----------



## req

well remember, the curvature of the horn lens would ideally match the curvature of the windshield as well as the dash. like this picture.










you see how there are no sharp edges and everything is perfectly smoothed out? thats how i would imagine it would work best - but again it would require heavy modifications and would not be suitable to almost anybody besides the competitor or insane audiophile like some of us on the forums. 

patrick bateman, eric stevens, mic wallace? care to chime in?


----------



## n_olympios

S3T said:


> Why noone throws the horns on the dashboard? Perfect fit
> 
> 
> 
> Now it's time to squeeze some pair of 6.5"s in each door and i'll be fine.


Your 106 interior seems in relatively good shape! Unlike most around these days. Oh, and with that fish-eye lens it actually seems roomy.


----------



## P_4SPL

Ok, found a pic online of my veritas horns. *This is not my install.
*


I am just showing what my horns look like when they are not covered by a grill.

* Will be posting pics of my horn/waveguide install.

These are more of a waveguide IMO, and do a good job of dispersing the sound across the dash panels etc.


----------



## go!tc

this is probably the most dedicated area in the forum people with horns, I love the way horns sound but **** so much work getting them in. I saw all the work my did getting his in car.


----------



## req

Its reall no more dificult then removing door panels and all that jazz to install a midbass. Just gotta be creative sometimes.


----------



## subwoofery

req said:


> Its reall no more dificult then removing door panels and all that jazz to install a midbass. Just gotta be creative sometimes.


Agreed 100% - personally I find horns easier to install than any other driver. Strange I know :laugh: 

Kelvin


----------



## DanMan

One of the reasons I chose a horn install was the ease of installation. No baffles, no damping,deadening...etc.

Some cars make for easier installs. Hondas, for one.


----------



## req

by the way mr DanMan, are you going to be coming up to syracuse for our iasca get together?

would be cool to have two horn cars there.


----------



## P_4SPL

Horns can be tricky to make them sound correct. If there's too much localization, the install has to be re-configured. Most important of all is how the horn is coupled with the rest of the dash.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

req said:


> well remember, the curvature of the horn lens would ideally match the curvature of the windshield as well as the dash. like this picture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you see how there are no sharp edges and everything is perfectly smoothed out? thats how i would imagine it would work best - but again it would require heavy modifications and would not be suitable to almost anybody besides the competitor or insane audiophile like some of us on the forums.
> 
> patrick bateman, eric stevens, mic wallace? care to chime in?


Using the entire dash as the waveguide solves a gazillion problems. I'm a bit mystified why more people do not do it. *The waveguide setup that I published on here, the one that used the whole dash, was probably the most satisifying system I've ever had in my car.*


































For me, there were really only two down sides. First, it looked like hell. Second, the soundstage is confined to the boundaries of the car.

IMHO, the only practical way to get the soundstage to extend beyond the boundaries of the cabin is to pull the speakers away from the walls. *When your tweeters are pulled away from the boundaries of the room/car, early reflections create a pleasant sense of space and ambience.*









This is why my project after the Unity horns was one where the tweeters were a good 12" away from the windshield and side window. I did that to create some ambience.

Oh, another problem with using the dash as a waveguide is that it doesn't make much of a difference if you're driver can't play below 2khz. This is because you simply don't NEED a big waveguide to do 2khz - it only needs to be seven inches in diameter. So the dash-as-waveguide thing is particularly effective at frequencies below 2khz.

Note that doesn't mean you have to use large-format compression drivers, or Unity horns. (Like I did.)

Even a plain ol' midrange can get some serious gain off a dashboard-as-waveguide. I've published some graphs on here and on my forum which show that you get some serious horn loading when you corner load midranges in a car. This is more than just cabin gain, this is real horn loading, because cabin gain is dictated by the length and the width of the car, while horn loading is based on a whole slew of *other* factors.


----------



## S3T

Yes, i have experimented with my cellphone as speaker in the corners of dashboard, and it sounded really good, full, dynamic and detailed. Everyone can try it 

The biggest problem of the dash-horns (and horns in general) is weird FR response that needs to be fixed with parametric EQ.

By the way, i get some strange phasing isues with the horns. The soundstage is precise, everything is in place, but i feel some weird phasing issue going on - just like the "phaser" effect in music. The relative phase between left and right is fine, as well as path lengths (i tried it at home). I don't think it's due to EQ phase shifts, as i have tried different EQs (FIRs, IIRs, minimum phase/phase linear/regular "analog" etc, and they haven't contributed much to the effect). It affects just some sounds in the song...

Do the horns mess with phase response? Every linear filter do it as long as it changes FR response. If they do, then it's fine, because you can fix it with reverse EQ with same (inverted) phasing properties - and get both FR and phase plots flat.


----------



## DanMan

req said:


> by the way mr DanMan, are you going to be coming up to syracuse for our iasca get together?
> 
> would be cool to have two horn cars there.


I don't know that I can make it. I will keep it in mind. Thanks for the invite.


----------



## TokoSpeaker

Nice install.


----------



## req

TokoSpeaker said:


> Nice install.



Um... trying to get that post count up huh?? Lol.


----------



## sonikaccord

Not my install but its super clean
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/405687-post22.html


----------



## go!tc

subwoofery said:


> Agreed 100% - personally I find horns easier to install than any other driver. Strange I know :laugh:
> 
> Kelvin


There's an extra pair of the pros here at the house, my dad said they're mine If I choose to use them. I have no idea how to even start getting these in . The only thing I can imagine doing is hacking the dash into pieces which I can't see my self doing.


----------



## req

i didnt modify my dash at all to fit the horns under it.


----------



## blackknight87

Can i ask what the point of these horns are? I'm new to the audio scene. So forgive m newbness.


----------



## sonikaccord

blackknight87 said:


> Can i ask what the point of these horns are? I'm new to the audio scene. So forgive m newbness.


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/95950-horns-really-essque.html


----------



## blackknight87

Ok i read that thread, but still not sure what the point of them is.


----------



## voltij

blackknight87 said:


> Ok i read that thread, but still not sure what the point of them is.


They are a tweeter.

(he'll get it now)


----------



## blackknight87

voltij said:


> They are a tweeter.
> 
> (he'll get it now)


so there is a small tweeter at the back end of those things that shoots sound out the horn. now i got it
thnx


----------



## req

*LOL*

(i think he got it)


wow. i actually laughed at that one.

this may help, guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_loudspeaker


----------



## blackknight87

thnx i read that article later after i posted this.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Mic10is said:


> With enough questions around about how to mount horns etc...
> 
> If you have horns installed, please post pics.
> 
> If you want to post a couple pics of the install process, thats cool too
> 
> I'll Start
> 
> Version 2 of my Integra Install from around 2001
> 
> __
> Image uploading. Refresh page to view
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most Recent version of BMW Install-MECA Finals Champion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BMW Install -IASCA Finals Champion 2005 (debut of the car)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Winslow's (hatedguy) install from 2001 IASCA Finals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My wife Lori's Install from her 1st IASCA Finals in 2001 (4th place)
> Horn is a mini Tractrix horn, one off design, loaded with ID NX30 Tweets


Why do you put the midbasses in the floor instead of in the door? Is that to get the stage 'deeper'?


----------



## Mic10is

Midbass firing up? is that the question? when done properly, it makes the midbass seem more diffuse and less localized to a specific location. It was a really popular idea in the mid to late 90s. its also an easier way to get larger drivers up front without compromising foot space like Kick panels tend to do.

major downside is that it can create tactile cues bc you can feel the air moving on your leg. also you have to be very conscience of where your feet and legs are as to not step on them, so at times that can take away from the listening enjoyment


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Mic10is said:


> Midbass firing up? is that the question? when done properly, it makes the midbass seem more diffuse and less localized to a specific location. It was a really popular idea in the mid to late 90s. its also an easier way to get larger drivers up front without compromising foot space like Kick panels tend to do.
> 
> major downside is that it can create tactile cues bc you can feel the air moving on your leg. also you have to be very conscience of where your feet and legs are as to not step on them, so at times that can take away from the listening enjoyment


I just bought another car, and the dealer offered me $300 for my 2001 Accord, the one that I basically trashed with all my car audio projects. (Car works fine, but it's ugly as sin.)

It might be fun to go nuts with some of these ideas, since the car's value is about the same as a trip to a sushi bar with the girlfriend and kids 

I've got some TC Sounds fifteens gathering dust in the garage hmmm


----------



## fish

Patrick Bateman said:


> I just bought another car, and the dealer offered me $300 for my 2001 Accord, the one that I basically trashed with all my car audio projects. (Car works fine, but it's ugly as sin.)
> 
> It might be fun to go nuts with some of these ideas, since the car's value is about the same as a trip to a sushi bar with the girlfriend and kids
> 
> I've got some TC Sounds fifteens gathering dust in the garage hmmm



A bit O/T, but what car did you buy, & do you have any aftermarket audio plans for it?


----------



## ZapcoTravis

Hi everyone.
I'm new here.
My name is Travis.
I use to install for a shop in Tacoma, Wa. called FOSS Car Audio back in 1995.
I have been out of the car audio scene for many years.

I have been reading a lot on the forum, and I am very happy to see that there is actually a HLCD section.

Anyways, this is my old 1985 Honda Prelude Si from years ago.
I did this install back in 2001 and it was my first time installing horns and first time doing a major dash mod.
I installed a pair of USD Audio waveguides and USD Audio 6.5 midbasses in it.
Amplifiers I use a Zapco reference 350.2 for the waveguides and midbass speakers and a Zapco reference 500.1 for two phoenix gold tantrum 10 inch subs.

As you can see I rebuilt the entire bottom section of the dash in order to get the horns to fit with a lot of modifications under the dash to make room for the drivers.


----------



## ZapcoTravis

Here is a install a friend of mine did a few years back in a GM Denali with ID horns and Illusion Audio midbasses and Earthquake subs.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Ha! I was born in Tacoma.
Have been by Foss a million times.
It's over by the Guitar Center, near the Tacoma Mall.

I just sold my place in Tacoma a few months back. It was just north of the Ruston neighborhood.


----------



## REGULARCAB

and here I thought washington was a car audio wasteland...


----------



## ZapcoTravis

Patrick Bateman said:


> Ha! I was born in Tacoma.
> Have been by Foss a million times.
> It's over by the Guitar Center, near the Tacoma Mall.
> 
> I just sold my place in Tacoma a few months back. It was just north of the Ruston neighborhood.


Patrick

Nice to see someone on here from my old stomping grounds.
Yeah I started working at FOSS right after Dave "Fishman" Rivera left FOSS.
Dale Hillious "Fabio" was working there when I started.
Buzz Neilson was the manager along with Tyler Foss.


----------



## SQram

Cool pics Travis, love seeing the old horn installs!


----------



## ZapcoTravis

SQram said:


> Cool pics Travis, love seeing the old horn installs!


Thank you SQram

Like I said in my first post, My old Prelude was the first time I ever experienced horns of any sort.
It was a fun challenge to get the waveguides in that car.
Ever since then I have never used tweeters.

I am in the planning stages of creating a new system with horns just not quite sure if I want to stay with the USD waveguides or try the ID style horns.

One thing is certain though, and that is that I am going to use 8 inch midbasses one way or another, even if that means cutting out my floorboards to do so.


----------



## req

love the pictures man.

that sub enclosure is rad. ive always thought about using that wasted area for subs instead of the floor - but ive never owned an SUV


----------



## Patrick Bateman

ZapcoTravis said:


> Patrick
> 
> Nice to see someone on here from my old stomping grounds.
> Yeah I started working at FOSS right after Dave "Fishman" Rivera left FOSS.
> Dale Hillious "Fabio" was working there when I started.
> Buzz Neilson was the manager along with Tyler Foss.


Oh wow I saw his work in Car Audio and Electronics, had no idea he worked there. It's kind of odd how many big names in audio are up in Washington. Just off the top of my head:

1) Bob Carver at Sunfire in Lynnwood
2) A whole bunch of people over at Mackie in Woodinville
3) McCauley is based in Tacoma


----------



## SQram

Isn't Audiocontrol in Washington as well?


----------



## thehatedguy

Mountlake Terrace, WA


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Ah, that's another one. And they're within a few miles of Rane, which is over in Mukilteo. Probably a lot of cross-pollination between those two companies, since their products have a lot of overlap.


----------



## REGULARCAB

Hmmm maybe I just don't get out much.


----------



## danno14

Patrick Bateman said:


> Oh wow I saw his work in Car Audio and Electronics, had no idea he worked there. It's kind of odd how many big names in audio are up in Washington. Just off the top of my head:
> 
> 1) Bob Carver at Sunfire in Lynnwood
> 2) A whole bunch of people over at Mackie in Woodinville
> 3) McCauley is based in Tacoma


 That's it? Not including Speakerlab (the original) or B&G surprises me!



I bought sooo much Sounstream cable and RCA's from Foss back in the day that I got Tyler to set me up an account. Man that stuff cost me!


----------



## danno14

Wasn't Obcon started around Auburn too?


----------



## ZapcoTravis

danno14 said:


> That's it? Not including Speakerlab (the original) or B&G surprises me!
> 
> 
> 
> I bought sooo much Sounstream cable and RCA's from Foss back in the day that I got Tyler to set me up an account. Man that stuff cost me!


Yeah Tyler use to push soundstream cable a lot.
Thank god I had an employee discount when I worked there.


----------



## quality_sound

My old shop bought damn near all of the remaining stock of the SS cables and ends shortly before they folded. I STILL have some of it. 

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


----------



## minbari

ZapcoTravis said:


> Patrick
> 
> Nice to see someone on here from my old stomping grounds.
> Yeah I started working at FOSS right after Dave "Fishman" Rivera left FOSS.
> Dale Hillious "Fabio" was working there when I started.
> Buzz Neilson was the manager along with Tyler Foss.


Tyler Foss was/is such a tool. I came in there one time to look at what they had. They pushed RF stuff like it was crack. if you didnt buy right away, they ignored you and actually asked me to leave, lol. I never went back.


----------



## ZapcoTravis

minbari said:


> Tyler Foss was/is such a tool. I came in there one time to look at what they had. They pushed RF stuff like it was crack. if you didnt buy right away, they ignored you and actually asked me to leave, lol. I never went back.


I agree to that.

I wish I could find some of the people I use to work with there, mainly Dale Hillious.


----------



## danno14

family has old money, finds a way to (sort of) keep the kid out of trouble.....kid still turns out the same. 



Minbari- you are/were a NW guy?


----------



## subterFUSE

Sorry to take this thread back on-topic.... 

Just got my ES Audio Ultra horns installed, so here are some pics.


----------



## edouble101

subterFUSE said:


> Sorry to take this thread back on-topic....
> 
> Just got my ES Audio Ultra horns installed, so here are some pics.


Nice! What are your thoughts? What does the rest of the system consist of?


----------



## subterFUSE

edouble101 said:


> Nice! What are your thoughts? What does the rest of the system consist of?


I have not really tuned the system yet. Only adjusted crossover points and polarity a little bit. Never touched the EQ yet. So I've got a lot of work to do tweaking it.

Horns are mated with Beyma 8G40 midbass, and for subs I went with a pair of Dynaudio Esotar 1200s, in a trunk baffle. The subs are probably my favorite aspect of this system, so far. I've always had sealed enclosures before this car, so the extra deep extension and detailed bass from the trunk baffle is really impressive.


----------



## JVD240

Gorgeous!

Is that an S7???


----------



## SQram

Very nice, keep the pictures coming as the install progresses...?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## thehatedguy

How do you like the Beymas?


----------



## mmiller

Anyone ever used super tweeters in the pillars to raise stage height, or felt the need to?


----------



## subterFUSE

JVD240 said:


> Gorgeous!
> 
> Is that an S7???


2013 S6


----------



## subterFUSE

thehatedguy said:


> How do you like the Beymas?


Fantastic so far, but like I said.... I have not tuned them very much yet. i'm sure they will be even better with some time and effort in the tuning.


----------



## minbari

danno14 said:


> family has old money, finds a way to (sort of) keep the kid out of trouble.....kid still turns out the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Minbari- you are/were a NW guy?


ya, I grew up in Tacoma. Lived there for 30 years before my wife and I moved to STL about 6 years ago.


----------



## minbari

mmiller said:


> Anyone ever used super tweeters in the pillars to raise stage height, or felt the need to?


I considered it at first, but honestly, once you get them tuned, the horns have plenty of high end and stage very well. I have the standard CD1e. The ultras have better high end extension.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

minbari said:


> Tyler Foss was/is such a tool. I came in there one time to look at what they had. They pushed RF stuff like it was crack. if you didnt buy right away, they ignored you and actually asked me to leave, lol. I never went back.


I would get SO MUCH ***** if I could point to the ocean and say "that's named after me."










(There are about three people that will get my joke, but this stretch of water is named after Foss)


----------



## subwoofery

I don't see a horn install in the picture  

Kelvin


----------



## minbari

Patrick Bateman said:


> I would get SO MUCH ***** if I could point to the ocean and say "that's named after me."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (There are about three people that will get my joke, but this stretch of water is named after Foss)


might be named after the Foss family, but not that douche canoe Tyler


----------



## ZapcoTravis

LMAO !

yeah that is Foss Harbor Marina


----------



## ZapcoTravis

minbari said:


> might be named after the Foss family, but not that douche canoe Tyler


Does anyone remember the black GTO Judge that Tyler owned ?
Dale Hillious built a system in it with RF amps, ID horns back in 1995.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

minbari said:


> might be named after the Foss family, but not that douche canoe Tyler


Have you met any girls from Tacoma? They're not the sharpest tools in the shed


----------



## Eric Stevens

mmiller said:


> Anyone ever used super tweeters in the pillars to raise stage height, or felt the need to?



A super tweeter will not raise the sound stage. Done correctly they can add air and a sense of greater space.

Getting a high sound stage is done with system design and proper tuning. When you get it tuned to the point where you can not localize the sound to the speakers is when it will have a good stage height. This should be pretty easy and to get to 90% with just levels, crossover and driver phase/polarity.

Eric


----------



## Patrick Bateman

^^ That makes a lot of sense.

Have you ever heard a very high pitched sound, and been unable to locate where it's coming from? For instance, hear a mosquito buzzing around your head? That's 8khz, and it's usually hard to detect where the mosquito is until it's just inches from your head.

Due to the Fletcher Munson curves and psychoacoustics, *most of our perception of location will be dominated by the midrange octaves*, about 500hz to 2khz. So a supertweeter isn't going to raise the stage; it will basically add 'air' as Eric noted. Worst case scenario it will sound 'detached' from the rest of the system.


----------



## derickveliz

I'm sorry for been naive, but where? and what are my choices buying horns?

Thanks

D.


----------



## jpeezy

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Eric Stevens sells them (also designs them and all around good guy)


----------



## Freedom First

ZapcoTravis said:


> I agree to that.
> 
> I wish I could find some of the people I use to work with there, mainly Dale Hillious.


Didn't realize there were so many Tacoma guys on here. I'm in Puyallup, and have haunted Tacoma since the early 80's. My first serious car audio purchases were at Foss on Cedar St. Bought some Soundstream and Altec stuff from Tyler and Buzz. Currently, Tyler is selling cars @ Sunset Chev. in Sumner, and I saw Buzz there as well, a few years back. Buzz was always a stand-up guy, and Tyler, well... He's just Tyler. 

I went to high school with Dale Hillius, and remember when he was working at Foss. He's now the top installer for Car Toys in (at the present) Puyallup/So. Hill. Owing to his expertise, he's been moved around to various Car Toys locations over the last several years.


----------



## ZapcoTravis

Freedom First said:


> Didn't realize there were so many Tacoma guys on here. I'm in Puyallup, and have haunted Tacoma since the early 80's. My first serious car audio purchases were at Foss on Cedar St. Bought some Soundstream and Altec stuff from Tyler and Buzz. Currently, Tyler is selling cars @ Sunset Chev. in Sumner, and I saw Buzz there as well, a few years back. Buzz was always a stand-up guy, and Tyler, well... He's just Tyler.
> 
> I went to high school with Dale Hillius, and remember when he was working at Foss. He's now the top installer for Car Toys in (at the present) Puyallup/So. Hill. Owing to his expertise, he's been moved around to various Car Toys locations over the last several years.


Thank you so much.
I have been trying to find Dale for years.


----------



## Imagewerx

Image Dynamics CD2 comps in a mk.4 Golf.Had to move the relay rack to get this one in.....





Had to modify the heater resistor to fit the left hand one in.....





Yes they are at different heights,but it's good enough for me.One day I promise I'll make grills for them.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

When are you going to fix that steering wheel?
It's on the wrong side.


----------



## ZapcoTravis

Patrick Bateman said:


> When are you going to fix that steering wheel?
> It's on the wrong side.


LMAO ! :lol:


----------



## Imagewerx

Patrick Bateman said:


> When are you going to fix that steering wheel?
> It's on the wrong side.


When America pays off it's $17 trillion debt,we'll start putting steering wheels on the other side of the dashboard.

Let me know when you're ready won't you and I'll alert the car manufacturers:laugh:


----------



## Freedom First

Imagewerx said:


> When America pays off it's $17 trillion debt,we'll start putting steering wheels on the other side of the dashboard.
> 
> Let me know when you're ready won't you and I'll alert the car manufacturers:laugh:



$17T for driving on the other side of the road? Doesn't sound like a very good trade to me!


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Imagewerx said:


> When America pays off it's $17 trillion debt,we'll start putting steering wheels on the other side of the dashboard.
> 
> Let me know when you're ready won't you and I'll alert the car manufacturers:laugh:


I don't want to get too far off topic again, so I'll keep this brief:

1) The United States has a printing press
2) The US dollar is the most widely accepted currency in the world
3) Interest rates are at all time lows

As long as those three things are true, the size of our debt is virtually meaningless. Worst case scenario, the US Treasury could mint fifteen trillion dollars and pay the debt off overnight.

It's an insanely complex topic, but finance is probably the one thing I enjoy talking about more than horns!

The Treasury Has Already Minted Two Trillion Dollar Coins - Forbes


----------



## Freedom First

Patrick Bateman said:


> Worst case scenario, the US Treasury could mint fifteen trillion dollars and pay the debt off overnight.


And then the dollar would be worth about as much as fallen leaves in autumn, and we'd have sky-high inflation, interest rates, and unemployment! YAY!! 

But, I digress... back on topic! 

Any more pics of horns in a full-size GM Truck (1999-2007)? I'm thinking this might be easier to pull off than conventional tweets, to get the stage/imaging right...


----------



## quality_sound

Anyone done horns in an 08+ WRX/STI?

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Freedom First said:


> And then the dollar would be worth about as much as fallen leaves in autumn, and we'd have sky-high inflation, interest rates, and unemployment! YAY!!
> 
> But, I digress... back on topic!
> 
> Any more pics of horns in a full-size GM Truck (1999-2007)? I'm thinking this might be easier to pull off than conventional tweets, to get the stage/imaging right...


If anyone wants to debate the debt, then check out this thread:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2060482-post1.html


----------



## Diezel10

2006 Dodge Megacab Veritas VD1.75


----------



## Diezel10

ERIC..did the tuning......Thank you Eric!!....and Jason for your extreme patience.


----------



## Diezel10

Oh yes the Driver hanging down....a "Special Cover" was upholstered to sleeveover the driver so that it would appear stock


----------



## thehatedguy

Nice!

Which drivers are on the horns?


----------



## Diezel10

Thank you, Radian with Berryllium Diapraghm


----------



## thehatedguy

Oh ****...go big or go home!

Bet they are quite nice.


----------



## Diezel10

Yes Sir!!!!....it took me two years to get it all together......They sound nice......but I need one of you gurus to sit in that truck and further tweak it......it took Eric a whole day of tuning.....but he said..... "It still needs tuning".....really?...he answered in a RESOUNDING YES!!......


----------



## Diezel10

If I may ask....anything you would change?? if it was your setup??


----------



## rockin

Eric Stevens said:


> A super tweeter will not raise the sound stage. Done correctly they can add air and a sense of greater space.
> 
> Getting a high sound stage is done with system design and proper tuning. When you get it tuned to the point where you can not localize the sound to the speakers is when it will have a good stage height. This should be pretty easy and to get to 90% with just levels, crossover and driver phase/polarity.
> 
> Eric


Funny you should ask...LOL
Not to raise soundstage the 3.5s did that
To play the 1/2 octave the horns suck at reproducing
Meant to reply to MMILLER sorry.


----------



## Diezel10

Uh...soundstage is at eye level (Take into consideration I have a truck) and about playing high enough...it is uncomfortably loud especially when steve vai goes for that 32nd fret bend dive bomb......ouch.


----------



## Diezel10

Dang....you guys are given me that itch again.......instead of 2-6.5s in each door maybe I should go 10's.........but I am going to have to redesign that door panel and make sure that it looks bone stock.


----------



## thehatedguy

AS long as we are dreaming....

I would probably change the midbasses to something larger, an 8 or a 10. So many great ones on the market to choose from.

And for the last bit of over the top, I would make straight adapters for the horns and compression drivers. That would/could be easy depending on how you look at it. IMO, the straight horns would give you that extra bit of top end detail, and having those drivers with those diaphrams...I know I would be looking into doing that. The reflectors/bends in the horn can realign the wave front properly if done right, but to me, the straight ones do the low level details just *that* much better.

I don't know anyone on here who is more of a guru than Eric is with regards to tuning horns...but tuning is a process. 

Eric's tuning used to have a distinct sound to it when he would tune our cars at the big shows back in the day. I (almost) always like how Matt tuned the bass/midbass better than Eric did (sorry Eric), but Eric had the mid/highs better than Matt did...I think most of the ID team at the time felt the same way. 

Maybe Mic can elaborate on the differences between those two tunings...we always had multiple presets- one Matt, one Eric, one some of both type stuff. I remember Matt's tuning having more bass and midbass slam...though Eric was catching on that we liked that better (right/wrong, correct/incorrect) and started getting little more bass heavy for us.

But once you get the foundation down like you have, it's going to be a series of tweaks here and tweaks there to get it finished.


----------



## Eric Stevens

Diezel10 said:


> Yes Sir!!!!....it took me two years to get it all together......They sound nice......but I need one of you gurus to sit in that truck and further tweak it......it took Eric a whole day of tuning.....but he said..... "It still needs tuning".....really?...he answered in a RESOUNDING YES!!......


It may of took all day but I only got to tune it for a short time and needed more. 


Eric


----------



## Eric Stevens

thehatedguy said:


> I (almost) always like how Matt tuned the bass/midbass better than Eric did (sorry Eric), but Eric had the mid/highs better than Matt did...I think most of the ID team at the time felt the same way.


----------



## Mic10is

thehatedguy said:


> AS long as we are dreaming....
> 
> I would probably change the midbasses to something larger, an 8 or a 10. So many great ones on the market to choose from.
> 
> And for the last bit of over the top, I would make straight adapters for the horns and compression drivers. That would/could be easy depending on how you look at it. IMO, the straight horns would give you that extra bit of top end detail, and having those drivers with those diaphrams...I know I would be looking into doing that. The reflectors/bends in the horn can realign the wave front properly if done right, but to me, the straight ones do the low level details just *that* much better.
> 
> I don't know anyone on here who is more of a guru than Eric is with regards to tuning horns...but tuning is a process.
> 
> Eric's tuning used to have a distinct sound to it when he would tune our cars at the big shows back in the day. I (almost) always like how Matt tuned the bass/midbass better than Eric did (sorry Eric), but Eric had the mid/highs better than Matt did...I think most of the ID team at the time felt the same way.
> 
> Maybe Mic can elaborate on the differences between those two tunings...we always had multiple presets- one Matt, one Eric, one some of both type stuff. I remember Matt's tuning having more bass and midbass slam...though Eric was catching on that we liked that better (right/wrong, correct/incorrect) and started getting little more bass heavy for us.
> 
> But once you get the foundation down like you have, it's going to be a series of tweaks here and tweaks there to get it finished.


Eric worked best when he didnt have time to tune.  when given "too much" time to tune is when the system started to sound rather flat, dry and sometimes lifeless.

show up late with an unfinished car that needs put together a few hours before judging and have Eric squeeze in their and turn some knobs and push some buttons equaled magic.

I think the later years when Matt and Eric would flip flop with Matt doing 200 and down and Eric doing 200 and up and technical worked well.

I still think the Dell Helmer/ Eric Stevens combo was extremely hard to beat.

and Yes there was a very distinct sound to the system. There were many shows where Jason Ewing and I would go to shows together and the judge would get out and say "you car sounds just like his car and his car sounds just like your car"...but I was running a 3way and he was always a 2way.


----------



## subterFUSE

I need to get Eric on a plane to tune my car.


----------



## Diezel10

Eric Stevens said:


> It may of took all day but I only got to tune it for a short time and needed more.
> 
> 
> Eric


Can't stop listening to those Pink Floyd and Rush cd's

Thanks again


----------



## Diezel10

thehatedguy said:


> AS long as we are dreaming....
> 
> I would probably change the midbasses to something larger, an 8 or a 10. So many great ones on the market to choose from.
> 
> And for the last bit of over the top, I would make straight adapters for the horns and compression drivers. That would/could be easy depending on how you look at it. IMO, the straight horns would give you that extra bit of top end detail, and having those drivers with those diaphrams...I know I would be looking into doing that. The reflectors/bends in the horn can realign the wave front properly if done right, but to me, the straight ones do the low level details just *that* much better.
> 
> I don't know anyone on here who is more of a guru than Eric is with regards to tuning horns...but tuning is a process.
> 
> Eric's tuning used to have a distinct sound to it when he would tune our cars at the big shows back in the day. I (almost) always like how Matt tuned the bass/midbass better than Eric did (sorry Eric), but Eric had the mid/highs better than Matt did...I think most of the ID team at the time felt the same way.
> 
> Maybe Mic can elaborate on the differences between those two tunings...we always had multiple presets- one Matt, one Eric, one some of both type stuff. I remember Matt's tuning having more bass and midbass slam...though Eric was catching on that we liked that better (right/wrong, correct/incorrect) and started getting little more bass heavy for us.
> 
> But once you get the foundation down like you have, it's going to be a series of tweaks here and tweaks there to get it finished.



Hmmmm adapters and "Over the Top".....what type of materials to build adapters?.....or just have a machine shop build adapters out of aluminum


----------



## thehatedguy

The adapters could be anything from fiberglass, wood, or aluminum. What you need to do is to straighten the reflector out by measuring down the center (inside center between the top and bottoms) and get the length needed. Then you plot the curve of the reflector along that length. That would give you the expansion and what the piece would look like. I would think that if you brought the drawing to a machine shop, it would be trivial for them to make the pieces you need out of any material.

Heck, if you know someone with a 3d printer, you could have someone print a couple for you.


----------



## thehatedguy

A few hours before judiging? Man, we were working on our cars right up until the judges walked up...and probably made a few wait until we were ready. I know that one time in Memphis a judge had to wait on me 

But I was amazed at what Eric could pull out of his rear end to save us given the time he had to work with us. I know I couldn't have done what he did in 30 minutes.

Well, we were always consistant as a team with the tuning. I think msybe everyone but Natan was...well maybe he was because he said my car sounded a lot like his...lol.






Mic10is said:


> Eric worked best when he didnt have time to tune.  when given "too much" time to tune is when the system started to sound rather flat, dry and sometimes lifeless.
> 
> show up late with an unfinished car that needs put together a few hours before judging and have Eric squeeze in their and turn some knobs and push some buttons equaled magic.
> 
> I think the later years when Matt and Eric would flip flop with Matt doing 200 and down and Eric doing 200 and up and technical worked well.
> 
> I still think the Dell Helmer/ Eric Stevens combo was extremely hard to beat.
> 
> and Yes there was a very distinct sound to the system. There were many shows where Jason Ewing and I would go to shows together and the judge would get out and say "you car sounds just like his car and his car sounds just like your car"...but I was running a 3way and he was always a 2way.


----------



## thehatedguy

The best part of going to the shows was to see you, Matt, and the rest of the team there...and getting new shiny tunes from you guys. The shows were always better when the fearless leader was there.




Eric Stevens said:


>


----------



## Eric Stevens

thehatedguy said:


> The best part of going to the shows was to see you, Matt, and the rest of the team there...and getting new shiny tunes from you guys. The shows were always better when the fearless leader was there.


Those were good times


----------



## Eric Stevens

thehatedguy said:


> Well, we were always consistant as a team with the tuning. I think msybe everyone but Natan was...well maybe he was because he said my car sounded a lot like his...lol.


Natan would have me get in and double check his work and make tweaks as I see fit. In the beginning years it was a little bit of work but still very good already, to the later years, when it was just some enjoyable listening and giving the system my blessing with maybe some small tweaks.


----------



## SQram

Diezel10 said:


> Hmmmm adapters and "Over the Top".....what type of materials to build adapters?.....or just have a machine shop build adapters out of aluminum


Here is a pic of a straight through adapter design another member posted here a while back, didn't gain much attention...

If you progress with this idea, please keep us informed, I would be most interested in picking up a set in either throat size as well...


----------



## Diezel10

Good Morning, SQRAM!
I was hoping you'd chime in I had the feeling you would have something...well here goes I am going to go to the machine shop where I had them ported and polished and see if they offer such a service or if I can be steered in the right direction...I will keep you posted....it's not that I am lazy I just don't have an idea on how to initiate such a project......who has dimensions? :blush:


Thanks again.

Diezel10


----------



## thehatedguy

You would have to measure it to get the dimensions. It is an area progression starting at the compression driver ending where it bolts to the body. I could make you a little plug mold of one of my straight entry ID big bodies, but I don't know how well that would work because I don't know if the flare rates are the same or the same flare...but being that close to the entrance it may not matter much given most of the different flares are very close together at the beginning.

I have a mold of Eric's CD1e mini bodies here that I am going to straighten out to go with the straight big bodies I have.


----------



## mikey7182

Freedom First said:


> And then the dollar would be worth about as much as fallen leaves in autumn, and we'd have sky-high inflation, interest rates, and unemployment! YAY!!
> 
> But, I digress... back on topic!
> 
> Any more pics of horns in a full-size GM Truck (1999-2007)? I'm thinking this might be easier to pull off than conventional tweets, to get the stage/imaging right...


My horns are in a 2003 Chevy S-10, but I have done horns in a 2005 F150 SuperCrew (with the center console shifter) and a 2006 Dodge Ram Quad Cab (virtually identical to Diezel's dash). I had one of the best stages I've had in that Ford. I just barely wrapped up my latest S-10 install and have it pretty dialed in. I haven't been under the dash in fullsize Chevy in awhile, but if it's relatively flat under there and it doesn't look like you'd have to relocate much, jump into it!


----------



## SQram

Diezel10 said:


> Good Morning, SQRAM!
> I was hoping you'd chime in I had the feeling you would have something...well here goes I am going to go to the machine shop where I had them ported and polished and see if they offer such a service or if I can be steered in the right direction...I will keep you posted....it's not that I am lazy I just don't have an idea on how to initiate such a project......who has dimensions? :blush:
> 
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> Diezel10


OK, took some quick measurements off one of my 1" 90 degree adapters:

Width of adapter exit: 50mm
Height of adapter exit: 20mm
Distance from center of throat to adapter exit: 18mm

Here are the measurements pasted on the adapter image previously posted. I don't think the flare would match the horn flare, but this obviously was not a concern when the horns were developed...? 

Anyone have any experience with 3D modelling or 3D printing software? 








[/URL][/IMG]


----------



## thehatedguy

So those horns aren't 1" tall?


----------



## SQram

Nope:








[/URL][/IMG]


----------



## thehatedguy

Huh...never paid attention to that.

So an adapter would be a little more difficult than I thought because you are going from a 1" round driver to an entrance/exit that is less than 1" high.


----------



## Diezel10

Got home last night pretty late from work and got out of the truck and spend about an hour underneath the dash, s ince I am going to start on these adapters it will allow me to fit these........if....if ......I can make room by adjusting what currently under there.


----------



## Blu

thehatedguy said:


> So an adapter would be a little more difficult than I thought because you are going from a 1" round driver to an entrance/exit that is less than 1" high.


That coupled with the short transition of only 18mm as shown on the drawing. dunno...


----------



## thehatedguy

Yeah an adapter that was of the same flare as the horn would be more than 3/4" of an inch long.

But that negative reduction is going to be tricky...it's going to have to decrease area going one way while expanding in another. Unless you cut the horn and redid everything at a point where it was 1" tall...if there is such a place in those horns to do that. A few car horns expand in 3 dimensions and some one expand in 2 dimensions until the very end.


----------



## Diezel10

So look at the horn where it begins to taper at 1" and have it separated from there?


----------



## SQram

TAD's, nice! I've had both the 2001's and 2002's on the Veritas body, very nice drivers!

Anyhow, here is a thought...

I don't have any calipers in my office, but here is a very rough estimate on how long the adapter would have to be to match the flare rate of the horn body. I taped stir sticks to the inside walls of the body to mimic an extension of the horn flare. I marked out the approximate distace to 1" of width which was approximately 42mm.

So...Long story short, I think the longer the adapter is, the closer it will match the horn flare up to about 45mm give or take. Once I get home I could make more accurate measurements, if anyone is serious about making the adapter. 

A 1.4" or 1.5" adapter would be pretty easy to create as well...








[/URL][/IMG]


----------



## Blu

LOL!

Kris... you take your horns with you to the office?!?!? :laugh:


----------



## Blu

thehatedguy said:


> ... Unless you cut the horn and redid everything at a point where it was 1" tall...if there is such a place in those horns to do that. A few car horns expand in 3 dimensions and some one expand in 2 dimensions until the very end.


I can't speak to the aluminum body Veritas horns, but looking at the composite version that I have, the vertical portion of the throat is definitely less than 1"... it is only just before the mouth that there is any significant flare, and only at the sides.


----------



## SQram

LOL, nahh. I just happened to have one in my truck from sizing up a top dash mount...

The plastic Veritas bodies are narrower than the Aluminum (from top to bottom) the entire length of the body.


----------



## thehatedguy

Here's the thing IMO...

Shorter (top to bottom) horns have better treble. In order to go from a large area/height to a smaller one, you create internal diffraction...which hurts the HF response and FR of the horn.

A 1.4 or 1.5" driver on a horn that was designed for a 1" driver will be shorter than the horn with the 1" driver. Horns work on an area progression. What you would ideally do if you put a large format driver on a horn that was designed for a smaller driver would be to find the area in the horn that is equal to the area of the driver you were attaching, and attach the driver in that spot.

So for a 1.4" driver you would need to find the spot on the horn where the area is equal to 1.54 sq inches. For a 1.5" driver you would need to find the spot where the area is 1.78 sq inches. And for a 2" driver you would need to find the spot where the area is equal to 3.14 sq inches.

To find the length of the adapter to make it a straight entry, you need to do this: Find the center of the hole for the compression driver and make a mark on the reflector at that point- you will then measure how far down the hole that is from where the driver bolts on at. Then, on the other side in the middle from top to bottom and side to side measure the depth from the ending of the adapter to the point you made on the first step. Add the two lengths together. Then you need to make the curve/will probably look pretty straight (it will with a horn that is already 1" tall internally).


----------



## thehatedguy

And I would really experiment with the open cell 30ppi foam with knowing they were creating diffraction. You will loose some top end that you can EQ back though.


----------



## SQram

thehatedguy said:


> Here's the thing IMO...
> 
> To find the length of the adapter to make it a straight entry, you need to do this: Find the center of the hole for the compression driver and make a mark on the reflector at that point- you will then measure how far down the hole that is from where the driver bolts on at. Then, on the other side in the middle from top to bottom and side to side measure the depth from the ending of the adapter to the point you made on the first step. Add the two lengths together. Then you need to make the curve/will probably look pretty straight (it will with a horn that is already 1" tall internally).


Measures out to approx 41mm, so I was off by 1mm...


----------



## mikey7182

thehatedguy said:


> And I would really experiment with the open cell 30ppi foam with knowing they were creating diffraction. You will loose some top end that you can EQ back though.


I run that in my ID fullsize with the DE500s, and ran it in the Illusion lenses I had as well, both with great results. And I like a bright top end. For me, it tamed the lower end/"HOMsters" (from ~2k-6k) and I didn't find I needed to boost the top end more than 1-2db. I also have the PVC roundover on the ones I'm using currently.

That brings me to a suggestion- I'm all about DIY and modifying or making one-off parts, but why not look for a pair of Illusion CH-1 lenses? I know they're kinda tough to come by but I've found two pair over the years. Unfortunately I sold them both at different times  Just some food for thought. At that point, there should be adapaters to go from 1.4-1", or just bolt the 1" right on.

Diezel- I remember you PMing me a year or two ago... something about being a Marine in need of assistance with horns or something to that degree. I'm glad to see you finally scooped some up and have gotten your build together! Was it worth it? I looked for a build log of yours as well... maybe not hard enough? Are you running the IDMax behind the seat in the MegaCab or did you end up doing a blow through like I have?


----------



## thehatedguy

Which one was that?



SQram said:


> Measures out to approx 41mm, so I was off by 1mm...


----------



## thehatedguy

Were the Illusions 1" all the way down to the mouths or near the mouths? The only thing that I remember about them was I thought they were conical in geometry.

I would like to find a set of those and Crossfire horns just so I could make a mold of them.


----------



## mikey7182

thehatedguy said:


> Were the Illusions 1" all the way down to the mouths or near the mouths? The only thing that I remember about them was I thought they were conical in geometry.
> 
> I would like to find a set of those and Crossfire horns just so I could make a mold of them.


From what I remember, they were pretty uniform all the way down to the mouth; they didn't have that 'hump' that the ID lenses have that then flares out at the last minute. It's been a few years since I've had a pair though. Wish I could find another.


----------



## SQram

I also have a set for the Illusion bodies at home, they definitely narrow down from top to bottom after the 1" entry point.

mikey- the reason I like the straight entry on a Veritas body is because I really like the "crossfire" pattern on the Veritas lenses, I drive a full size truck and I find they work really well in my situation. I've even gone as far as considering cutting off the striaght entry section of the Illusion body and welding on a flange to mate up on the Veritas body...less than ideal, but it has crossed my mind...


----------



## SQram

thehatedguy said:


> Which one was that?


1" adapter:

26mm verticaly to the center of the reflector +
15mm from the center of the reflector to the exit of the adapter
-----------
=41mm total distance (approximately).


----------



## thehatedguy

Nooo don't cut the Illusions up! I know someone who would buy them...


----------



## SQram

LOL, I know better...


----------



## Blu

thehatedguy said:


> I would like to find a set of those and Crossfire horns just so I could make a mold of them.


Out of curiosity, what do you use to make the molds?


----------



## cajunner

chop saw, anyone?

interesting discussion, so nobody's willing to reinvent the wheel?

it would be about as much effort to create entirely new horns as it will be to mate up that 1" round exit, with those necked down, elongated rectangles.


----------



## thehatedguy

I used regular polyester resin. Though, technically casting resin would have been the "right" thing to use since it was a thicker part.

What I did was get some molding clay and filled in the hole for the driver and then made a dam around the edges of the mouth. Then I put a nice coat of Pam on it all. Then I poured the resin into the horn going slowly to check for leaks in the clay (which it did leak some  ). Then I put some paint stir sticks down the throats to give me something to pull it with and to displace as much resin as I could since I barely had enough leftover to make the mold. Once cured, I took the clay off of the driver's hole, tapped it with a screw driver and hammer, and out she popped.

Having done that (I was in a hurry), I would have done it differently if I had to do it over again. I would have cut a piece of wood and drilled a hole in the wood, put said piece of wood over the mouth of the horn, clayed up the sides and poured the resin down the hole into the horn. That would have saved me a few steps later on in cleaning up the edges and stuff that I have to do now.




Blu said:


> Out of curiosity, what do you use to make the molds?


----------



## thehatedguy

Well, it just dawned on me...you can't make a plug mold for the straight adapters for the Veritas horns. The 1" driver hole is larger than the exit of the adapter, so you will have positive draft in the mold, and that means you couldn't pop the plug out of the part. These would have to be done in two parts or you would have to destroy the molds in the process of taking them out.

Bummer.


----------



## thehatedguy

Of the few horns done and sold for cars, there were only three brands that people remember as being done "right"- Image/Eric's horns, Veritas, and Illusion.

Well those are the three that I think were done right and you still see people using with good success. 

The Crossfire horns were neat in the fact they were both tractrix and elliptical, something of which hasn't never been done before of after in car audio. I don't know how well they actually worked though.

Elliptical shape is neat in the fact the wavefront is less distorted than rectangular in theory. But you have a lot of things to consider in a car horn than you do in a home horn.




cajunner said:


> chop saw, anyone?
> 
> interesting discussion, so nobody's willing to reinvent the wheel?
> 
> it would be about as much effort to create entirely new horns as it will be to mate up that 1" round exit, with those necked down, elongated rectangles.


----------



## cajunner

google images has 'em.

look pretty cool, too. I wonder if diffraction lens (quarter rounds) would help their ability to use the dash as a following, and give the stage the lift that the other car audio horns get.

I'm thinking you could make a much larger horn if you went just a little more shallow, and I still want to do the EOS in the sheet metal of the floorboard/firewall juncture.


----------



## thehatedguy

Diffraction is a bad thing, you want to do as much as you can to limit/minimize it. 

But I'm not following the other part about the quarter rounds.

You have to have the depth too for a horn. 




cajunner said:


> google images has 'em.
> 
> look pretty cool, too. I wonder if diffraction lens (quarter rounds) would help their ability to use the dash as a following, and give the stage the lift that the other car audio horns get.
> 
> I'm thinking you could make a much larger horn if you went just a little more shallow, and I still want to do the EOS in the sheet metal of the floorboard/firewall juncture.


----------



## cajunner

thehatedguy said:


> Diffraction is a bad thing, you want to do as much as you can to limit/minimize it.
> 
> But I'm not following the other part about the quarter rounds.
> 
> You have to have the depth too for a horn.


well, call it a lip around the rim of the crossfires.

the way the pvc pipe works on USD horns.

and the depth is doable, on some cars and on others you might be a little close to the tire, haha...

but you can help that part out by first making a forward depression that leaves a rounded lip in the sheet metal, for when you make the reverse, and actual horn throat. With about a 1" rise in the sheet metal, you'll have 3" of throat depth which is deep enough for EOS shape and size.

being able to aim the oval of the horn, and shape the waveguide, you could control height, directivity and use the full wheelwell width to create a diffuse sound field.


----------



## thehatedguy

Well the USD is a bad design and it needs some help.

You would do something like that to help terminate the horn...which is why it is so important to have the tops of the horns physically connected to the dash somehow. It would or could be benefical to do the same with the bottoms too.

But to do what you are saying, I don't know if it would be possible to do and keep the area progression of a horn right. 3" of depth would be really shallow and only control directivity so far...I would have to do the math to see exactly how low it would control things, but it would only be for high frequencies like for treble use I would guess.

The thing about putting home horns in the car and aiming them is that you are still projecting the wavefront behind the dash/radio area versus putting that energy at the passengers into the car.

Then you would have to deal with the pedals on the driver's side.

Horns in cars are a lot more compromised than in the house, but you can benefit from the environment too...like using the dash as an extension of the horn.

Eric could go on about this more than I could since he has had to deal with these things with the design of his product and is far more knowledgable than I am about it.




cajunner said:


> well, call it a lip around the rim of the crossfires.
> 
> the way the pvc pipe works on USD horns.
> 
> and the depth is doable, on some cars and on others you might be a little close to the tire, haha...
> 
> but you can help that part out by first making a forward depression that leaves a rounded lip in the sheet metal, for when you make the reverse, and actual horn throat. With about a 1" rise in the sheet metal, you'll have 3" of throat depth which is deep enough for EOS shape and size.
> 
> being able to aim the oval of the horn, and shape the waveguide, you could control height, directivity and use the full wheelwell width to create a diffuse sound field.


----------



## Eric Stevens

Don't use the TAD 4001 they are forward and shouty and need lots of taming just be listenable and never come close to a TAD 2001. 

If you want to go straight and upgrade drivers 2001 is the best driver available.




Diezel10 said:


> Got home last night pretty late from work and got out of the truck and spend about an hour underneath the dash, s ince I am going to start on these adapters it will allow me to fit these........if....if ......I can make room by adjusting what currently under there.


----------



## cajunner

thehatedguy said:


> Well the USD is a bad design and it needs some help.
> 
> You would do something like that to help terminate the horn...which is why it is so important to have the tops of the horns physically connected to the dash somehow. It would or could be benefical to do the same with the bottoms too.
> 
> But to do what you are saying, I don't know if it would be possible to do and keep the area progression of a horn right. 3" of depth would be really shallow and only control directivity so far...I would have to do the math to see exactly how low it would control things, but it would only be for high frequencies like for treble use I would guess.
> 
> The thing about putting home horns in the car and aiming them is that you are still projecting the wavefront behind the dash/radio area versus putting that energy at the passengers into the car.
> 
> Then you would have to deal with the pedals on the driver's side.
> 
> Horns in cars are a lot more compromised than in the house, but you can benefit from the environment too...like using the dash as an extension of the horn.
> 
> Eric could go on about this more than I could since he has had to deal with these things with the design of his product and is far more knowledgable than I am about it.


some cars would naturally conform to this idea, and others would be impossible.

you'd need room in the firewall, room in the engine compartment that isn't occupied by brake cylinders or steering column bits, an open area at the same height in both foot wells, and some way to pneumatic hammer the steel into a horn's profile while leaving just the very tip to make the opening where a flange could be welded on to bolt the horn onto. I imagined something of a body repair shop's hammer and back-up doing the work, in the event that air tools aren't available.

you'd have famous depth, controlled dispersion that could be focused for 1 seat alignment, hardly any need for time alignment, and it would go down to 500 hz, if you could extend the horn mouth from the kick panel to the transmission hump. the natural extension of the horn contour to the floor plane and the under-dash plane over 20" of width...

you'd actually form it behind the foot pedal arms, and the underneath of the dash.

it would theoretically be a void under the dash no one could see, and if you could use large format compression drivers nestled a few inches from the exhaust manifolds, haha..

it's ridiculous, perhaps.

I take my inspiration from the success of people using drivers in the underneath area of the front seat's front, getting pretty good imaging due to a lack of nearby reflections. 

this horn fitment, would be approximately centered in the foot well's width, as far forward as the people who rebuilt their kick/firewalls and placed cone drivers inside enclosures stuffed in the area behind the tire shield inside the fenders.

to imagine it, take a 4" wide swath out of the middle of Geddes' OS horn, and turn it off-set elliptical, focusing most of the energy directly towards the rear window center. since you are at a more even pathlength differential, and you have the drivers so far forward, there wouldn't be so much need to throw energy to the center of the car and the horn would have a more natural release at the edges, especially since you have the "le'Cleach" roundover built into the steel.

It may not be possible, since the foot pedal arms mount into their hinged assemblies at the firewall right about where you'd be putting a void, unless you could build a scaffold for them that would allow the floor pan to recess beneath them.

yeah, maybe it's just thinking in terms of placement and not the real world workaround obstacles that allows me to foster this idea along, it would be nice to see what a horn could do there, out of the way but in the perfect spot.


----------



## Diezel10

Eric Stevens said:


> Don't use the TAD 4001 they are forward and shouty and need lots of taming just be listenable and never come close to a TAD 2001.
> 
> If you want to go straight and upgrade drivers 2001 is the best driver available.




Eric...I am sorry I work these odd hours and observed I posted up the wrong Driver..YES I am going to be using the TAD2001.....the ones that you instructed me on how to take apart and clean


----------



## Diezel10

mikey7182 said:


> I run that in my ID fullsize with the DE500s, and ran it in the Illusion lenses I had as well, both with great results. And I like a bright top end. For me, it tamed the lower end/"HOMsters" (from ~2k-6k) and I didn't find I needed to boost the top end more than 1-2db. I also have the PVC roundover on the ones I'm using currently.
> 
> That brings me to a suggestion- I'm all about DIY and modifying or making one-off parts, but why not look for a pair of Illusion CH-1 lenses? I know they're kinda tough to come by but I've found two pair over the years. Unfortunately I sold them both at different times  Just some food for thought. At that point, there should be adapaters to go from 1.4-1", or just bolt the 1" right on.
> 
> Diezel- I remember you PMing me a year or two ago... something about being a Marine in need of assistance with horns or something to that degree. I'm glad to see you finally scooped some up and have gotten your build together! Was it worth it? I looked for a build log of yours as well... maybe not hard enough? Are you running the IDMax behind the seat in the MegaCab or did you end up doing a blow through like I have?



YES....it took me two years to put everything together....I was contemplating blowthrough and going BMS...but I scrapped everything and had to keep the truck bed usable so what I did is I took 2-IDMAX and ported them...YES they fit back there!!.....the seats don't recline back any further....build log?....no it got away from me didn't have time the truck was out of commission for a whole month....I am really enjoying these....I forgot how fun horns are!...I did not have enough time to explore a 10" Midbass in the door and I did not have an extra set of door panels..I want to make it as stealth as possible....


----------



## Diezel10

cajunner said:


> some cars would naturally conform to this idea, and others would be impossible.
> 
> you'd need room in the firewall, room in the engine compartment that isn't occupied by brake cylinders or steering column bits, an open area at the same height in both foot wells, and some way to pneumatic hammer the steel into a horn's profile while leaving just the very tip to make the opening where a flange could be welded on to bolt the horn onto. I imagined something of a body repair shop's hammer and back-up doing the work, in the event that air tools aren't available.
> 
> you'd have famous depth, controlled dispersion that could be focused for 1 seat alignment, hardly any need for time alignment, and it would go down to 500 hz, if you could extend the horn mouth from the kick panel to the transmission hump. the natural extension of the horn contour to the floor plane and the under-dash plane over 20" of width...
> 
> you'd actually form it behind the foot pedal arms, and the underneath of the dash.
> 
> it would theoretically be a void under the dash no one could see, and if you could use large format compression drivers nestled a few inches from the exhaust manifolds, haha..
> 
> it's ridiculous, perhaps.
> 
> I take my inspiration from the success of people using drivers in the underneath area of the front seat's front, getting pretty good imaging due to a lack of nearby reflections.
> 
> this horn fitment, would be approximately centered in the foot well's width, as far forward as the people who rebuilt their kick/firewalls and placed cone drivers inside enclosures stuffed in the area behind the tire shield inside the fenders.
> 
> to imagine it, take a 4" wide swath out of the middle of Geddes' OS horn, and turn it off-set elliptical, focusing most of the energy directly towards the rear window center. since you are at a more even pathlength differential, and you have the drivers so far forward, there wouldn't be so much need to throw energy to the center of the car and the horn would have a more natural release at the edges, especially since you have the "le'Cleach" roundover built into the steel.
> 
> It may not be possible, since the foot pedal arms mount into their hinged assemblies at the firewall right about where you'd be putting a void, unless you could build a scaffold for them that would allow the floor pan to recess beneath them.
> 
> yeah, maybe it's just thinking in terms of placement and not the real world workaround obstacles that allows me to foster this idea along, it would be nice to see what a horn could do there, out of the way but in the perfect spot.


I have read all of the replies on this subject and will have to review a few more times before I cut or disassemble, just want to make sure that I don't ruin these and at the same time learning alot from all of the information provided.

Thank you!!


----------



## Blu

Diezel10 said:


> I have read all of the replies on this subject and will have to review a few more times before I cut or disassemble, just want to make sure that I don't ruin these and at the same time learning alot from all of the information provided.
> 
> Thank you!!


I would consider pulling a mold of your horns, as TheHatedGuy outlined, before thinking cutting those Veritas bodies!

Would likely be very easy based on the two piece assembly of the aluminum version. That way you could experiment to your hearts content, but still have the originals in good working order should you find the results of the experiments not to your satisfaction.


----------



## Diezel10

Noted......where or who do I go to for such a job?

Thank you,

Diezel10


----------



## thehatedguy

You can do 600 hertz on Eric's big bodies with the right driver and a steep XO...500 maybe at lower levels.

I played around with trying large format drivers a few years a go. If you were to go that route, a few things need to be high lighted- the drivers are large, you would need to have neo motors to begin to make it work...and those are expensive. You would really want to do supertweeters/tweeters with them as the big drivers tend not to have good topend...you could do something like the Radian 951Be to get the topend back somewhat. But you would then run into really narrow top end dispersion from the beaming of the driver and from the horn. Then these things are so large, you would have to look for places to put your midbasses...and frankly, if you had a setup like that, you would really want at least 8s, 10s or 12s would be better.

It's a good idea, but looses practicallity in the car quickly...Eric knows, I usually send him a text, email, or a phone call with something like, "Eric, what do I have to do to get large format drivers in my car because I want my horns to play down deep into the midranges?" He tells me I need to find the spot in the horn where the area is equal to the area of the driver and plug the horns in there, to make an adapter, tells me in so many words it may or may not be worth doing (I've learned to decipher Eric speak a little bit over the 13 years that I've known him), and sends me on my way to dream up how to pull this off...again. Then later I tell him, it sounded good in my head but didn't seem to work that well when I got out to the car to measure everything.

The main stumbling blocks for me was figuring out how to make an adapter for the 2" drivers...which going into a 1" tall horn is geometrically impossible to do and get the reflector right for the wavefront to realign properly thus causing notches in the upper end response that may or may not be high enough not to worry about with the tweeters. Cost- for the drivers, another amp, and processor.

I have my dream large format system planned out in my head, I just can't make it work easily in the car.

Then again, I have my dream small format system planned out along with my dream proaudio coax system planned out too...lol.


----------



## thehatedguy

Pulling a mold would be easy provided the mouth of the horn is atleast as tall as the throat...and from what I remember of the Veritas the area where the mouth pinches down in the middle is the same height as the rest of the throat. If I could find a Veritas body on the cheap, I would take a look at it and see...the fact that he had those horns in urethane makes me think it is possible to make a plug mold for them. 8 or 9 years ago Bill Bibb offered to sell me the molds for those horns for like $600- I worked at a shop that sold Veritas and Image, and the salesman at the time knew Bill from way back and I had bought a couple pair of them over the years myself.


----------



## thehatedguy

Eric made a suggestion to me about the adapters- make them out of wood.

You could make them in 2 pieces, screw them together, lay them up, and un screw them to remove them out of the piece. Which makes sense and would be easy to do.

I don't know why I didn't think of that...but I guess that's why Eric makes the big money .


----------



## Patrick Bateman

thehatedguy said:


> You can do 600 hertz on Eric's big bodies with the right driver and a steep XO...500 maybe at lower levels.
> 
> I played around with trying large format drivers a few years a go. If you were to go that route, a few things need to be high lighted- the drivers are large, you would need to have neo motors to begin to make it work...and those are expensive. You would really want to do supertweeters/tweeters with them as the big drivers tend not to have good topend...you could do something like the Radian 951Be to get the topend back somewhat. But you would then run into really narrow top end dispersion from the beaming of the driver and from the horn. Then these things are so large, you would have to look for places to put your midbasses...and frankly, if you had a setup like that, you would really want at least 8s, 10s or 12s would be better.
> 
> It's a good idea, but looses practicallity in the car quickly...Eric knows, I usually send him a text, email, or a phone call with something like, "Eric, what do I have to do to get large format drivers in my car because I want my horns to play down deep into the midranges?" He tells me I need to find the spot in the horn where the area is equal to the area of the driver and plug the horns in there, to make an adapter, tells me in so many words it may or may not be worth doing (I've learned to decipher Eric speak a little bit over the 13 years that I've known him), and sends me on my way to dream up how to pull this off...again. Then later I tell him, it sounded good in my head but didn't seem to work that well when I got out to the car to measure everything.
> 
> The main stumbling blocks for me was figuring out how to make an adapter for the 2" drivers...which going into a 1" tall horn is geometrically impossible to do and get the reflector right for the wavefront to realign properly thus causing notches in the upper end response that may or may not be high enough not to worry about with the tweeters. Cost- for the drivers, another amp, and processor.
> 
> I have my dream large format system planned out in my head, I just can't make it work easily in the car.
> 
> Then again, I have my dream small format system planned out along with my dream proaudio coax system planned out too...lol.


You already know this, but Synergy Horns make all of this unnecessary 

I'm about to do some measurements on the ones for my Mazda, and I managed to cram four midranges onto a horn that's about the same size as a TAD2001 by itself. IE, a TAD with no horn whatsoever!

Besides the obvious advantages of a Synergy horn - the ability to do 200hz on a very small package - there's another advantage that I haven't explored too much:

With miniDSP bringing DSP to the masses, it's way, way easier to make all five drivers look like one. In my previous designs I got 'in the ballpark', but with miniDSP i can line up the impulse response of all five drivers by tweaking the crossover slopes and adding a little bit of delay to digitally 'move' the drivers forward or backwards.

The great thing about miniDSP is the ability to 'dial in' the rolloff. IE, it's not just about having first order slopes, it's also about using EQ so that the rolloff of the driver *combined* with the crossover is first order. This is nearly impossible to do passively, because the bandwidth of horn loaded drivers is so narrow. (It's hard to explain this without pics  )

We're getting pretty close to The Holy Grail here, a speaker that can play 200hz to 20khz, hits 120dB, has virtually inaudible distortion, and directivity control.

Exciting times. It feels like I'm finally doing horns that surpass what people were doing in the 90s.


----------



## thehatedguy

Been thinking about a minidsp or two for myself...just worried about noise and output levels.


----------



## edouble101

cajunner said:


> some cars would naturally conform to this idea, and others would be impossible.
> 
> you'd need room in the firewall, room in the engine compartment that isn't occupied by brake cylinders or steering column bits, an open area at the same height in both foot wells, and some way to pneumatic hammer the steel into a horn's profile while leaving just the very tip to make the opening where a flange could be welded on to bolt the horn onto. I imagined something of a body repair shop's hammer and back-up doing the work, in the event that air tools aren't available.
> 
> you'd have famous depth, controlled dispersion that could be focused for 1 seat alignment, hardly any need for time alignment, and it would go down to 500 hz, if you could extend the horn mouth from the kick panel to the transmission hump. the natural extension of the horn contour to the floor plane and the under-dash plane over 20" of width...
> 
> you'd actually form it behind the foot pedal arms, and the underneath of the dash.
> 
> it would theoretically be a void under the dash no one could see, and if you could use large format compression drivers nestled a few inches from the exhaust manifolds, haha..
> 
> it's ridiculous, perhaps.
> 
> I take my inspiration from the success of people using drivers in the underneath area of the front seat's front, getting pretty good imaging due to a lack of nearby reflections.
> 
> this horn fitment, would be approximately centered in the foot well's width, as far forward as the people who rebuilt their kick/firewalls and placed cone drivers inside enclosures stuffed in the area behind the tire shield inside the fenders.
> 
> to imagine it, take a 4" wide swath out of the middle of Geddes' OS horn, and turn it off-set elliptical, focusing most of the energy directly towards the rear window center. since you are at a more even pathlength differential, and you have the drivers so far forward, there wouldn't be so much need to throw energy to the center of the car and the horn would have a more natural release at the edges, especially since you have the "le'Cleach" roundover built into the steel.
> 
> It may not be possible, since the foot pedal arms mount into their hinged assemblies at the firewall right about where you'd be putting a void, unless you could build a scaffold for them that would allow the floor pan to recess beneath them.
> 
> yeah, maybe it's just thinking in terms of placement and not the real world workaround obstacles that allows me to foster this idea along, it would be nice to see what a horn could do there, out of the way but in the perfect spot.


I'd love to pick up a beater and do as you explained :toff: <-- I llike this guy


----------



## Patrick Bateman

thehatedguy said:


> Well the USD is a bad design and it needs some help.
> 
> You would do something like that to help terminate the horn...which is why it is so important to have the tops of the horns physically connected to the dash somehow. It would or could be benefical to do the same with the bottoms too.
> 
> But to do what you are saying, I don't know if it would be possible to do and keep the area progression of a horn right. 3" of depth would be really shallow and only control directivity so far...I would have to do the math to see exactly how low it would control things, but it would only be for high frequencies like for treble use I would guess.
> 
> The thing about putting home horns in the car and aiming them is that you are still projecting the wavefront behind the dash/radio area versus putting that energy at the passengers into the car.
> 
> Then you would have to deal with the pedals on the driver's side.
> 
> Horns in cars are a lot more compromised than in the house, but you can benefit from the environment too...like using the dash as an extension of the horn.
> 
> Eric could go on about this more than I could since he has had to deal with these things with the design of his product and is far more knowledgable than I am about it.


My current solution is quite simple, but it's also ruffling some feathers over at diyaudio:










There are two parts to my solution. The first part is the Pyle waveguide, which is a clone of a JBL waveguide. It costs something like $20 and it's performance is superior to the waveguide in my Summas ($10,000), at least down to 2,250hz. Basically symmetrical waveguides like the ones in my Summa have a 'hole' in the response in front of the waveguide. I don't want to bore anyone with the details, but this is one of the reasons that the Summas are designed to be cross fired.

Okay, so *part one of the solution is a good inexpensive waveguide that covers 2250hz to 20khz.*

The second part of the solution is that the midranges are cardioid.


















Here's a couple pictures showing the difference between a regular woofer, and a cardioid woofer. *Basically a cardioid projects energy FORWARD, not in every direction.*

If anyone's noticed that a lot of people on diyaudio love dipoles, then you'll understand the reason to use a cardioid. Basically dipoles and cardioids are more 'immune' to a bad room, because they're directional.

It's surprisingly easy to setup a cardioid; all you need is one dipole and one sealed box, and *voila*, you got a cardioid. In my case I'm using two dipole mids and one sealed woofer.



The net effect is that we have the waveguide sending energy *forward*, down to it's physical limit, of 2250hz. And then the cardioid takes over, and works all the way down to 200hz.

The idea is to make the space around the speakers disappear. IE, get the room out of the equation.


----------



## Ultimateherts

Patrick Bateman said:


> a speaker that can play 200hz to 20khz, hits 120dB, has virtually inaudible distortion, and directivity control.
> 
> Exciting times. It feels like I'm finally doing horns that surpass what people were doing in the 90s.


I would only imagine 10K on up at 120DB and all I have to say is wow!


----------



## SQram

Modeled some adapters on the weekend, now to find somewhere to get them printed up...








[/URL][/IMG]


----------



## Patrick Bateman

SQram said:


> TAD's, nice! I've had both the 2001's and 2002's on the Veritas body, very nice drivers!
> 
> Anyhow, here is a thought...
> 
> I don't have any calipers in my office, but here is a very rough estimate on how long the adapter would have to be to match the flare rate of the horn body. I taped stir sticks to the inside walls of the body to mimic an extension of the horn flare. I marked out the approximate distace to 1" of width which was approximately 42mm.
> 
> So...Long story short, I think the longer the adapter is, the closer it will match the horn flare up to about 45mm give or take. Once I get home I could make more accurate measurements, if anyone is serious about making the adapter.
> 
> A 1.4" or 1.5" adapter would be pretty easy to create as well...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]


A few random observations:

1) The first 1" of a horn is the most critical segment IMHO. If you don't get that segment right, the entire horn simply won't work.
2) The odds of getting that segment right on the first try are slim
3) This is the reason I mostly use 'off the shelf' horns. I have personally built at least twenty or thirty horns, but I always have better results with ones that were made by the pros. (JBL, QSC, 18Sound, etc.)

If you really want to take on this project, I would recommend using a spline to join the two points. A spline will reduce diffraction, basically makes the horn sound a lot more like a dome tweeter. If you don't want to use a spline, try using a simple quarter circle. Check out the paper from Peavey on the Quadratic Throat Waveguide to see how that looks.









Last but not least, have you considered using a compression driver for line arrays? They have a rectangular exit that would meet up nicely with your horn. I've heard that BMS makes the best, but it's not cheap.









http://www.parts-express.com/peavey-rd-16-versarray-ribbon-tweeter-7-ohm--299-465
If you don't want to spend a few hundred bucks, just use a plain ol' ribbon. Parts Express has some Peavey ribbons for sale, and I've personally had good results horn loading the Fountek ribbons from Madisound.


----------



## SQram

Thanks for the feedback Patrick.

In my mind, I'm not really reinventing the wheel with these adapters, I have simply removed the reflector and straightened it out. The total length of the adapter remains the same (flange to flange) when measured from the center of the reflector (as Winslow mentioned), the entry size is the same, the exit size is the same. The profile from the 25.4mm entry to 20mm exit looks conical, and the profile from 25.4mm entry to 50mm looks conical as well. 

The only thing I see that I am missing is the profile from top to bottom through the Veritas adapter is reduced to about 10mm and then opens up to 20mm.

If I have these made, I will most likely have 2 sets made, one with the reduced throat, one with out. Whats the worst that can happen, they sounds a little worse than the stockers? 

Thoughts?


----------



## Patrick Bateman

SQram said:


> Thanks for the feedback Patrick.
> 
> In my mind, I'm not really reinventing the wheel with these adapters, I have simply removed the reflector and straightened it out. The total length of the adapter remains the same (flange to flange) when measured from the center of the reflector (as Winslow mentioned), the entry size is the same, the exit size is the same. The profile from the 25.4mm entry to 20mm exit looks conical, and the profile from 25.4mm entry to 50mm looks conical as well.
> 
> The only thing I see that I am missing is the profile from top to bottom through the Veritas adapter is reduced to about 10mm and then opens up to 20mm.
> 
> If I have these made, I will most likely have 2 sets made, one with the reduced throat, one with out. Whats the worst that can happen, they sounds a little worse than the stockers?
> 
> Thoughts?


I think the 90 degree bend in car audio horns is problematic. If you have enough room to have a straight entry, by all means, do it.


----------



## Tgangsta

Patrick I was wondering if you ever thought of putting your new horn under your front seats I heard its been done and also about making them mono instead of stereo so a heard under each seat would play mono and combine both the left and right on diyaudio some guys perfer the sound of mono what are your thoughts just curious, also if the horn under the seat increase horn length, im a newbie and would love to know if this is doable or not, thanks hope to hear your response


----------



## cajunner

I have some fiberglass Veritas clones I think would be easier to do than the aluminum, and this thread is making me want to do it!

maybe if I took a bandsaw to it, and kept the part I cut off, I could put it back together again... but then I guess you could always weld the aluminum too.

then again, if it was modeled up all CAD-like, we could pull somebody's 3-D printer identification and sneak into the lab, and have some molds made...

I wonder why the sudden interest in the Veritas over the ID full bodies? Is it because the Veritas is known to go a smidge lower bending wave? Is it the easier mating of a larger beginning of the throat?

I always thought the USD's problem was that it necked down too much in the swivel mount...


----------



## SQram

Veritas is easy because the throat simply unbolts, no cutting required...

I have two sets of Erics horns here as well, maybe he could provide us some useful feedback on making a straight adapter...


----------



## cajunner

SQram said:


> Veritas is easy because the throat simply unbolts, no cutting required...
> 
> I have two sets of Erics horns here as well, maybe he could provide us some useful feedback on making a straight adapter...


good point!

my fiberglass clones are one piece jobbers. 

considering how they aren't worth a bunch as copies, jenny-piggin' them sounds like a good use.

and a band saw would make them an easy two piece....

I could take an ID full size, and a Veritas, turn them both into straights, and put the ID in front of the passenger, for the extra "push" across the cabin and the Veritas in front of the driver for extra low-end crossover... add a little equalization and bang...

but nah... nobody would believe that I could pull that off.


----------



## macone

Horns in a car... That's not exactly popular here in Germany (at least I haven't seen it here) but looks really interesting. Is there someone from the Chicago area with such an install who'd like to meet up for some listening and chatting? I'll be there in two weeks


----------



## Eric Stevens

SQram said:


> Veritas is easy because the throat simply unbolts, no cutting required...
> 
> I have two sets of Erics horns here as well, maybe he could provide us some useful feedback on making a straight adapter...


Straight is not hard at all with my horns. In fact I have the molds and can make them in fiberglass for any that are interested. 

The adpater is pretty straight forward as well if using 1.4 or 2.0 throat drivers. I can make simple drawings to help out.

Eric


----------



## cajunner

it'd be pretty cool to be able to AB test the straight from the angled, to see what benefit to fitting the straight entailed?

maybe even some radiation pattern/dispersion plots...

would spark up the horn discussion a bit I'm sure, unless all this data is just sitting in a file somewhere.


----------



## thehatedguy

Yes...the adapters please!

I have some straight entry horns from Eric. I swear they are larger than the regular big bodies though. Mine are cut and need to be put back together...cut at the area for a 2" driver, that didn't work so I put 2-1.4" conical extensions on them when I had the Beyma CP755Nds. Now, that looked funky. I have some 2-1" adapters too that I could use...

Nah, should just glass them back together and be done with it.


----------



## thehatedguy

When the weather warms up, I am going to make some straight entry minihorns. Eric would get a set for sure...he doesn't have any of those yet.



cajunner said:


> it'd be pretty cool to be able to AB test the straight from the angled, to see what benefit to fitting the straight entailed?
> 
> maybe even some radiation pattern/dispersion plots...
> 
> would spark up the horn discussion a bit I'm sure, unless all this data is just sitting in a file somewhere.


----------



## thehatedguy

The reflectors aren't that bad if done right. You might see some difference above 18k and low level details are better.

I've owned and used both.

And the USD has more than one problem goind on with them.


----------



## Eric Stevens

cajunner said:


> it'd be pretty cool to be able to AB test the straight from the angled, to see what benefit to fitting the straight entailed?
> 
> maybe even some radiation pattern/dispersion plots...
> 
> would spark up the horn discussion a bit I'm sure, unless all this data is just sitting in a file somewhere.


The differences between straight and 90 degree entrance with a proper reflector is very small, and just at the highest frequency range of operation so in a daily driver system most likely inaudible. 

I did the measurements long ago and unfortunately dont have the data available anymore but recall the results for the most part.

Using LMS in high resolution the only measurable difference was above 16Khz. The response was smoother with about 1dB or more of averaged amplitude 18Khz to 20 Khz range. 

Dispersion/output between them is unchanged except for the difference in amplitude of the 16Khz and up area.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Tgangsta said:


> Patrick I was wondering if you ever thought of putting your new horn under your front seats I heard its been done and also about making them mono instead of stereo so a heard under each seat would play mono and combine both the left and right on diyaudio some guys perfer the sound of mono what are your thoughts just curious, also if the horn under the seat increase horn length, im a newbie and would love to know if this is doable or not, thanks hope to hear your response


If you have a super reflective surface, it's possible to create a reflection that's surprisingly "hi-fi"

I noticed this with the B&O lenses; the reflection off the back wall is quite close to the frequency response of the direct wave.

But with my car it's not practical to do, unless you put the horns on the dash and aimed it at the windshield. Basically the only way you're going to get response past 5khz or so is if the reflector is flat and rigid... like a piece of glass.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Eric Stevens said:


> The differences between straight and 90 degree entrance with a proper reflector is very small, and just at the highest frequency range of operation so in a daily driver system most likely inaudible.
> 
> I did the measurements long ago and unfortunately dont have the data available anymore but recall the results for the most part.
> 
> Using LMS in high resolution the only measurable difference was above 16Khz. The response was smoother with about 1dB or more of averaged amplitude 18Khz to 20 Khz range.
> 
> Dispersion/output between them is unchanged except for the difference in amplitude of the 16Khz and up area.



It's going to be completely impossible to see the problem with a reflector when measuring inside of a car, but here's what I see when I measure outside:

There's an initial wavefront, and then an 'echo' due to the reflector.

It's hard to see the damage in the frequency response plot, but in the impulse response it is as clear as day.

But there's a gazillion other factors at work too, and realistically they're probably going to swamp the effect of the reflector:

1) Narrow angle horns make everything more difficult, so if you 'open up' the horn, and make it wider, everything gets easier. This is particularly noticeable with the JBL clones I'm using right now, it's just a lot easier to get nice response out of them, both in the impulse response *and* the frequency response.
2) There's a lot of little things that make a big difference. For instance I'd rather have a horn with a reflector that mates really well with the compression driver than have a straight horn with a throat that doesn't match perfectly. This was *another* problem I saw with the Pyle PH714S; it is literally unusable until you clean up the throat. There's a gap of about 1/4" between the compression driver and the horn throat and it just ruins the polar response, frequency response, impulse response, etc.

Basically I'm not keen on reflectors, but the stuff that Eric recommends, such as polishing and cleaning out the throat so that the connection is perfectly seamless makes a real difference.


----------



## Eric Stevens

Patrick,

A reflector in a horn is only going to create an effect in the impulse or frequency response when the wave length is a given size relative to the area of the horn. Otherwise the wavefront is reconstructed at 90 degrees to its original direction. Dr. Bruce Edgar and I did measurements and testing on his horns and the measured results followed the predicted response as calculated. This was done on his folded midbass horns as part of an article for speaker builder many years ago. 




Patrick Bateman said:


> It's going to be completely impossible to see the problem with a reflector when measuring inside of a car, but here's what I see when I measure outside:
> 
> There's an initial wavefront, and then an 'echo' due to the reflector.
> 
> It's hard to see the damage in the frequency response plot, but in the impulse response it is as clear as day.
> 
> But there's a gazillion other factors at work too, and realistically they're probably going to swamp the effect of the reflector:
> 
> 1) Narrow angle horns make everything more difficult, so if you 'open up' the horn, and make it wider, everything gets easier. This is particularly noticeable with the JBL clones I'm using right now, it's just a lot easier to get nice response out of them, both in the impulse response *and* the frequency response.
> 2) There's a lot of little things that make a big difference. For instance I'd rather have a horn with a reflector that mates really well with the compression driver than have a straight horn with a throat that doesn't match perfectly. This was *another* problem I saw with the Pyle PH714S; it is literally unusable until you clean up the throat. There's a gap of about 1/4" between the compression driver and the horn throat and it just ruins the polar response, frequency response, impulse response, etc.
> 
> Basically I'm not keen on reflectors, but the stuff that Eric recommends, such as polishing and cleaning out the throat so that the connection is perfectly seamless makes a real difference.


----------



## cajunner

Eric Stevens said:


> The differences between straight and 90 degree entrance with a proper reflector is very small, and just at the highest frequency range of operation so in a daily driver system most likely inaudible.
> 
> I did the measurements long ago and unfortunately dont have the data available anymore but recall the results for the most part.
> 
> Using LMS in high resolution the only measurable difference was above 16Khz. The response was smoother with about 1dB or more of averaged amplitude 18Khz to 20 Khz range.
> 
> Dispersion/output between them is unchanged except for the difference in amplitude of the 16Khz and up area.


so if you (I) can't hear above 14Khz, you (I) should not be able to notice any improvement from a straight horn? And by any, I mean the amount a mid-Q bump at 6500 hz of say, 1 db, might have on the response?

that means it's not worth the extra trouble to cut, measure adapter, fit mold, make mold, make adapter, install adapter, and re-mount the now bulky apparatus under dash.

thanks, it helps to hear the extra effort in horns has already been put in, and I can be perfectly happy with the ID full size, or Veritas for that matter and not feel like compromises were made that adversely affected the response.

just curious, did you ever upscale your horns to about 20% larger volume/area, and what was the corresponding decrease in frequency the enlargement allowed, in terms of using larger format drivers?

and did you ever do a 3-across under-dash horn complement? A center channel horn?

I figure you could do a lot less "wave-guide" and maybe more "horn" in the way that you decrease the need for a strong center, by having an actual horn center with the same driver signature as the l/r stereo pair, and probably would allow a much shallower, more compact, easier to mount addition.

knowing this would only work in vehicles with a clean under-dash that goes across the vehicle at the same height, I'm sure it was not considered for a mass market approach but as a design concept, it would allow different specific criteria to enter, the equation...


----------



## cajunner

thehatedguy said:


> When the weather warms up, I am going to make some straight entry minihorns. Eric would get a set for sure...he doesn't have any of those yet.


you could make them to fit the JBL D2 driver, they would give you a new "ultra" moniker to tack on...






or maybe just the Vertec version?

they say JBL has a 1" exit version, that would be a giant killer of a tweeter horn, I think...


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Eric Stevens said:


> Patrick,
> 
> A reflector in a horn is only going to create an effect in the impulse or frequency response when the wave length is a given size relative to the area of the horn. Otherwise the wavefront is reconstructed at 90 degrees to its original direction. Dr. Bruce Edgar and I did measurements and testing on his horns and the measured results followed the predicted response as calculated. This was done on his folded midbass horns as part of an article for speaker builder many years ago.


Agreed. One of my big 'Eureka' moments with car audio horns was realizing that the very low height of your horns isn't just cosmetic, it improves imaging and frequency response off axis.

BUT... I still think a reflectorless horn is moar better  Specifically, I would expect to see a reflection in the impulse and comb filtering above a certain frequency, likely around 4500hz-ish.

Will this be audible in a car? Hmmmmm, I don't know. Only way to test would be to cut one in half, and it sounds like only a couple people have done that.

Here's the article Eric is referring to:

http://volvotreter.de/downloads/Edgar-Show-Horn.pdf

This one is good too:

http://volvotreter.de/downloads/Edgar-Midrange-Horn.pdf

All of Bruce Edgars paper are a must read. That dude was a real maverick in the 80s, it took a lot of guts to promote horns in that decade, hifi turned it's back on them. Luckily they came around in the 90s and 00s.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

cajunner said:


> you could make them to fit the JBL D2 driver, they would give you a new "ultra" moniker to tack on...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or maybe just the Vertec version?
> 
> they say JBL has a 1" exit version, that would be a giant killer of a tweeter horn, I think...


The D2 drivers are surprisingly easy to find used, and not even super-expensive. JBL uses them in their concert arrays, so they pop up used on eBay all the time, for about $400ish.









I think the *real* giant killer is the 2408H-1 though. Check out the patent, it uses a bunch of the same technology as the D2. Same asymmetrical phase plug, and they're both ring radiators. Sure, the D2 will get a LOT louder AND it will play lower, but the 2408H-1 is $105 new! The patent is an interesting read, the designer of the phase plug came from Cerwin Vega.

I'd love to hear some of JBLs studio speakers that use it, I believe that's it's intended market.

I'd use it in my car if I didn't have four of the Celestions already. I can't think of a better compression driver under $125.


----------



## cajunner

Patrick Bateman said:


> The D2 drivers are surprisingly easy to find used, and not even super-expensive.  JBL uses them in their concert arrays, so they pop up used on eBay all the time, for about $400ish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the *real* giant killer is the 2408H-1 though. Check out the patent, it uses a bunch of the same technology as the D2. Same asymmetrical phase plug, and they're both ring radiators. Sure, the D2 will get a LOT louder AND it will play lower, but the 2408H-1 is $105 new! The patent is an interesting read, the designer of the phase plug came from Cerwin Vega.
> 
> I'd love to hear some of JBLs studio speakers that use it, I believe that's it's intended market.
> 
> I'd use it in my car if I didn't have four of the Celestions already. I can't think of a better compression driver under $125.


you guys with all the money, why not try a Vertec D2, vs. the TAD 2001?

that's the giant as far as I can tell, or have read about concerning the state of the art in compression drivers.

if a 400 dollar driver puts up a fight against the TAD and it's 2K price tag, that would be nice to read about!


how low is that 2408 going to go, before impending dangerous operation?

will it run on a mini-body successfully down to 1Khz?


----------



## thehatedguy

2408 like the 2407/BMS 4540 would probably do 1.6k maybe touch lower in the car. JBL used them for PA use around 1.6 I think...would have to go read the XO points on the horns they were/are used on. But no way I would take them down to 1k.

The Celestion PB is talking about the 1425 has cleaner measurements than the BMS 4540, some home guys like them better than TAD from 2k and up. I dunno exactly how much lower you would want to take them...maybe 1.8k on the low side of things.

I was working on a center channel last year or so with a minihorn that was mounted long ways pointing front to back in the car...opposite how you would do them normally for the fronts.


----------



## fenis

Eric is there any possibility of making a 1.4" throat version of your full size horns? I would be keen to use a bigger compression driver to run them down to 600hz with authority. Or is an 800hz xo vs 600hz almost inaudible?

Currently my Beyma 1" throat drivers can handle the 800hz xo pretty well.


----------



## thehatedguy

You can enlarge the hole on Eric's big horns to 1.4-1.5 inches and most of it will align over the reflector properly...I've done it. You may see some problems in the treble due to the part that isn't aligned correctly, but you probably would want a super tweeter anyways since most 1.4-1.5 inch drivers don't have great treble to begin with.

Or you can find the area in the horn were it is equal to the area of the driver's exit and tap the horn in there. This would require cutting the horn and fabricating either a straight adapter or one with a reflector. This is the "right" way to do it. The Edgar articles linked above has the specifics on how the reflection should be placed to have the wavefront realign correctly.


----------



## cajunner

it's like deja vu going over the various horn stuff, people always asking "can it go lower" and wanting to fit large format to the car size, I think it runs on a cycle with the moon...

so, how much better can you make a USD horn by adding a reflector to the curved horn entry? from the sounds of it, you could significantly improve them just with a little plastic epoxy allowed to pool in the neck, cured at the right angle.


----------



## thehatedguy

No it's going to take more than that to fix those particular horns.


----------



## Eric Stevens

fenis said:


> Eric is there any possibility of making a 1.4" throat version of your full size horns? I would be keen to use a bigger compression driver to run them down to 600hz with authority. Or is an 800hz xo vs 600hz almost inaudible?
> 
> Currently my Beyma 1" throat drivers can handle the 800hz xo pretty well.


Short answer is yes it can be done.......

Been there and done that, I started with 1.4" throat in my Sable and the 1" setup was clearly better. 600 vs 800 is not much of a difference to make a change. You would get more output from the higher sensitivity more than any other factor with the large format driver, but we are near field and don't benefit from the higher sensitivity.

If you want more authority in the low midrange to upper bass region I think you better off working on the mid bass set up.


----------



## P_4SPL

*Pair of Veritas Horn Drivers

*3D printing these would be interesting.


----------



## RF500M

Pair of Aluminum Veritas VD1.75 with Berrylium Diaphragms (Thank you Eric)


----------



## Patrick Bateman

If you fill in that gap between the HLCD and the dash, it will measure and sound better.


----------



## RF500M

Good Morning-
Guidance and feedback is appreciated, I have done everything possible to fit these horns, pushed the heater unit up and trimmed any areas that could alleviate the distance (passenger side)

I have moved the emergency pedal and fabricated an extension to the pedal frame, moved all wiring harnesses over the steering wheel column instead of under, the steering wheel column is in the way. (Driver side) 

What do you recommend I can fill the gaps with?


Thank you

Alex


----------



## thehatedguy

A piece of cardboard with some trunkliner or a few layers of grill cloth is what I always used.

Doesn't have to be fancy...just want the top of the horn and in your case probably the sides to meet the dash.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Before I explain what to use, let me explain why/how this works:

As a wave moves along, there's a pressure change when the angle changes abruptly. That wave could be light, sound, water, etc.









An example that you can visualize is a boat in the ocean. The most turbulent part of the boat's wake is at the rear, where there's a sharp edge on the boat.

With a sound wave, that same turbulence creates phantom sources. You can see this in an impulse response measurement; there are 'echoes' caused by diffraction.

The sound of diffraction is exceptionally obnoxious; if you've ever wondered why horns 'honk' and dome tweeters don't, that's mostly diffraction. (There are other factors also, but lets keep it simple.)










Treating the mouth reduces that diffraction.
Peavey used closed cell foam. You can but it at Wal Mart in the fabric aisle for about $2. I've also seen it at home depot.

Felt works even better. That's what I use; you can buy it off of eBay. You want pressed felt, about 1/2" - 1" thick.

See my 'homster' thread at diyaudio for more.


----------



## RF500M

Thank you both....

Alex


----------



## P_4SPL

I find using a piece of perforated steel grill seems to reduce that high dispersion pattern of the horns and diffuses their output to a degree, this helps with the higher freq's above 3.5-16khz> anything below 800-3.5 will require a parametric EQ to tame that nasal sound.

*Unless you don't mind experimenting with foam inserted inside the diaphram.


----------



## subwoofery

P_4SPL said:


> I find using a piece of perforated steel grill seems to reduce that high dispersion pattern of the horns and diffuses their output to a degree, this helps with the higher freq's above 3.5-16khz> anything below 800-3.5 will require a parametric EQ to tame that nasal sound.
> 
> *Unless you don't mind experimenting with foam inserted inside the diaphram.


Got a pic your perfoated steel grill installed? 

Kelvin


----------



## P_4SPL

Yes.

*I'll post a pic.

I also have some pics posted in the previous page on this thread, but their a bit small.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

P_4SPL said:


> I find using a piece of perforated steel grill seems to reduce that high dispersion pattern of the horns and diffuses their output to a degree, this helps with the higher freq's above 3.5-16khz> anything below 800-3.5 will require a parametric EQ to tame that nasal sound.
> 
> *Unless you don't mind experimenting with foam inserted inside the diaphram.












True. The grille will act like a low pass filter, but it's physical, not electronic.

The coupling chambers on my midranges work the same way. If I used a hundred small holes instead of one large hole, the effect would be similar.


----------



## SweetJazz

I found some old pics of my competition system (1994 Civic). These pics were taken back in 2003. Veritas Accuwave Horns with Radian drivers. The midbass drivers were Dynaudio 17W75 drivers. Enjoy.


----------



## Mic10is

SweetJazz said:


> I found some old pics of my competition system (1994 Civic). These pics were taken back in 2003. Veritas Accuwave Horns with Radian drivers. The midbass drivers were Dynaudio 17W75 drivers. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> https://imageshack.com/i/ipFu4yM6j




VERy nicely done sir!
Those cars were just made for horns...my favorite all time car, the Shoei Garage Civic from Japan was a 94 Honda Civic


----------



## thehatedguy

Yeah that is a really nice install.


----------



## minbari

love the PG EQ. I have the 15 band little brother to that one.


----------



## SQram

Very nice install, thanks for posting up the pictures!

Any troubles mating the horns up with the midbasses (high efficiency horns/low efficiency speakers)? Looks like you ran identical amps to both speakers?


----------



## Diezel10

Dayang...I wish I could do that to the bottom dash of my truck.


----------



## SweetJazz

SQram said:


> Very nice install, thanks for posting up the pictures!
> 
> Any troubles mating the horns up with the midbasses (high efficiency horns/low efficiency speakers)? Looks like you ran identical amps to both speakers?


Thanks. I simply backed off the output of the horns using the X-overs. It was not as bad as you would think. Yes, the mids and horns were powered by identical amps. I wanted a symmetrical look to the amp rack.


----------



## subterFUSE

SweetJazz said:


> I found some old pics of my competition system (1994 Civic). These pics were taken back in 2003. Veritas Accuwave Horns with Radian drivers. The midbass drivers were Dynaudio 17W75 drivers. Enjoy.


My first horn system was very similar.

Had the same Art Series amps, except I had 2 A200, 1 A300 and 1 A600.
A300 running the horns. IDQ8's each had an A200 bridged, and the A600 running 3 JL Audio 10W6s.

1994 Acura Legend LS Coupe

Man, I loved that car.


----------



## SweetJazz

subterFUSE said:


> My first horn system was very similar.
> 
> Had the same Art Series amps, except I had 2 A200, 1 A300 and 1 A600.
> A300 running the horns. IDQ8's each had an A200 bridged, and the A600 running 3 JL Audio 10W6s.
> 
> 1994 Acura Legend LS Coupe
> 
> Man, I loved that car.


It was hard for me to part with the Art Series Amps. One of the best amps of all time IMO. The old Acura Legend Coupe is my favorite Acura next to my current 2007 TL-S. Your S6 is a great upgrade!!!


----------



## P_4SPL




----------



## Diezel10

I can see that Driver Peaking out from Underneath!!!.....nice install.


----------



## P_4SPL

* Thank you, Yes that's a Radian 950BP Horn driver _Titanium Magnets with 3" Aluminum Dome Driver.

The Eagle Vision has very curved Doors and Dash, basically it routes the sound from the already curved Wave Guides up around the door areas, along with the DSP unit, this creates an acoustic ambiance in the vehicle that surrounds you from the sides as well, ... the reflections coming up from the curved Dash creates a focused sound stage above the Dash that as well extends to the rear of the car from waves that reflect off the cabin ceiling, the effect is more dimensional, and creates a surround effect on certain recorded music.


----------



## thehatedguy

The 950 is supposed to be a sweet driver.

What did you do to put a 2" exit driver on the 1" horns?

I really like the sound of large format compression drivers myself.


----------



## P_4SPL

thehatedguy said:


> The 950 is supposed to be a sweet driver.
> 
> What did you do to put a 2" exit driver on the 1" horns?
> 
> I really like the sound of large format compression drivers myself.


* I had to grind open the exit hole 1/4" more than the existing one> there wasn't much room to grind in relation to how small the exit hole already was, but the throat still has enough support to keep it solid. I also painted the horns, actually used rubber spray paint, the magnet's rarely get hot though> I spoke with the engineer that designed the 950's actually, I asked him what the purpose of the fins on the magnets was, he stated partially (I beleive if I remember) that they're where designed to resemble the exhaust of a Harly's muffler system etc...lol...(though they're more for cooling the magnet). I liked their design because when you look at them they look like the cabins Heater Fan...the effect helps hide the drivers presence in the cabin and creates a more stealth install. The original magnets looked slightly awkard on the floor and where subtle'y harsher acoustically than these drivers. *As well painting the magnets might not have been an option either.


These horns direct sound out to the sides, The eagles doors are curved, so the sound travels up the sides of the doors and are guided up to your ears, this creates a cabin ambiance similar to dolby's surround sound subtle sound cue's. _The *sound~stage* fills the front dash dispersing ambient cue's that you can pick up acoustically_. I'll post a pick of the doors and some more dash pics...the passenger side dash helps guide the horns sound up more steeply towards the drivers seat as well, centering vocals where they should be located. As well ...all the surfaces of the vehicles cabin and doors are curved so they're not crashing into hard angles, these smoothed angles really act as extensions of the horns waveguides which create the Dolby effect inside the entire cabin, front and rear acoustics as well. 

Overall the car's dash and doors & the horns where almost specifically designed to meet the acoustics of the the interior cabin when coupled together, most vehicles have sharp lines and door handles that can cancel sounds traveling out the Veritas specially flared horn bodies.

* I have to note:

These horns sound great, have a great presence in the cabin, but they are not to be used as a regular speaker without DSP and Digital EQing and xover's. (IMO)

If you've ever been to a concert you understand how loud horns can go, and that's what they're originally designed to do Get loud and disperse high freq's as far as possible.

Ufortunately vehicles interiors can saturate the harmonics of the horns as they exit the driver, causing very bad distortion and peaky high freq's, I've found when switching from Analog to Digital EQ and Xovers for processing was as night and day, the horns and music itself became warmer and more mellowed, as well more ambiance was created from the DSP. As much as a difference Digital processing made, it still wasn't enough to correct most of todays music that suffers from highly clipped and distorted acoustics. So I tend to Re-master my Play lists, and run / process the file through multiband compressor software, I've found out alot about distortion and how your ears pick it up ...1" tweeters can sound normal even with distortion present, but when you increase the Dome size to 3" etc the signature distortion size goes from 1" to 3-4", so it gets larger and louder, your ears are designed to suck sound in, distortion stops this effect and you can't differentiate the sound~stage as well, so I cut the output of each freq band (0-120HZ)(120-2000khz)(2000-10KHZ)(10khz-20KHZ) cutting back output at these freq's allows the drivers themselves to reproduce those subtle acoustics better transiently, due to reduced cone surface voltage acummulation from uneccessary peaky output that ends up mostly as heat, this process enables a more coherent sound at louder volumes for the horns, as well as the mid-woofer drivers. The wave guides are similar to pro concert horns and should be treated and *Tuned as such. IMHO.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

I can only speculate on why this is, but for some reason, I find cardioids to sound more dynamic than monopoles.

Something to consider if you find modern recordings to sound (dynamically) compressed.


----------



## P_4SPL

* Most of todays recordings can be tolerated when played back on certain systems- Desktop or Hifi.

Though sometimes the recording of the music you would like to listen to is not done too well, I listen to a variety of music, 80's sounds with punchy drum beats, and House and club music which can sound a bit harsh on the high and low end, I find in order for the music to sound more tolerable on the Waveguides / Horns I need to compress (reduce volume) of the peaky freq's> in fact some music is recorded so the bass whacks your subwoofers (Even with no distortion) called overshoot - this type of recording ends up creating excessive heat and is recorded from just an Artitistic perspective and only creates a tone the artist wanted for that sound (which is excessive if not played back on a High end set of monitors that can reproduce those sharp effects).


Most tweeters exhibit a phenomenom that I would describe as high freq surface tension saturation, which means that too much information is attempting to exit the tweeters surface (as well any midranges surface) this effect is tolerable to a certain degree and can be perceived as more detail and resolution to the sound because distortion is inaudible in its basic terminalogy of the term...although the acoustics may not interfere with the perception of the sound it can interfere with it's absorption of it when your ears need to pick it up at higher volumes etc.


----------



## Ultimateherts

More PICS less TALK


----------



## P_4SPL

Yes I'll post some more pics.


----------



## Sencheezy

My installation. 










This is my first time jumping into SQ, and I can see myself staying here for many years to come haha.


----------



## el_bob-o

Sencheezy said:


> This is my first time jumping into SQ, and I can see myself staying here for many years to come haha.


I'm curious to see the rest of your build, is that a 10 or a 12 in your door?


----------



## Sencheezy

el_bob-o said:


> I'm curious to see the rest of your build, is that a 10 or a 12 in your door?


Thanks for your interest!! It's an single 12" Beyma 12P80Fe. 

Eclipse 7200 mkII : 
Zed Leviathan III : 
ID Mini Ultras : 
Beyma 12P80Fe


----------



## subterFUSE

I'm seeing a lot of horns installed with an upward tilt. I was under the impression they were supposed to be level. Is there an advantage to aiming up?


----------



## Sencheezy

subterFUSE said:


> I'm seeing a lot of horns installed with an upward tilt. I was under the impression they were supposed to be level. Is there an advantage to aiming up?


HA! Mounting failure on my end! The motor sags it down in the rear.


----------



## Eric Stevens

subterFUSE said:


> I'm seeing a lot of horns installed with an upward tilt. I was under the impression they were supposed to be level. Is there an advantage to aiming up?


They are supposed to be parallel or level with no upward tilt, a little is OK and more will still work but it gets harder to achieve a center image from both seats like that.

When tilted or aimed upward the amount of crossfire is reduced. What we want is more volume from farthest horn to compensate for earlier arrival of the nearest horn to create strong center image.


----------



## Diezel10

Sencheezy said:


> My installation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is my first time jumping into SQ, and I can see myself staying here for many years to come haha.



 This is exactly what I want in my Truck!!!!!!! 

That is Beautiful, but I need mine to be completely stealth.


----------



## subterFUSE

Eric Stevens said:


> They are supposed to be parallel or level with no upward tilt, a little is OK and more will still work but it gets harder to achieve a center image from both seats like that.
> 
> 
> 
> When tilted or aimed upward the amount of crossfire is reduced. What we want is more volume from farthest horn to compensate for earlier arrival of the nearest horn to create strong center image.



Ah, good. That's how mine are installed. Parallel to the floor, as far back and as wide as I could get them and high touching the underside of the dash.

I was playing with moving my head while listening and I found that when I lean forward the image skews to the left. But that makes sense because when I was leaning forward the center console was blocking the line of sight to the right side horn. That definitely confirms what you were saying about right side crossfire for imaging.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## P_4SPL

I have to mention Morel recently released some new driver Technology in regards to their Midrange and woofer Models.

Their new Rohacell technology is designed to dampen the output of the driver.

*Morel:*

*The combination of these materials
creates a diaphragm that exhibits controlled
cancelling break up (accurate–flexing), meaning
each break-up mode is counteracted by another in
the opposite direction.*

_Apprently this solves my need to reduce those sharp nodes via software. _


----------



## Sencheezy

Diezel10 said:


> This is exactly what I want in my Truck!!!!!!!
> 
> That is Beautiful, but I need mine to be completely stealth.


Haha, thank you very much for the kind words!! It's hard to keep a single 12" woofer steal, but I did try! haha. Next is to get the horns to be completely stealth. You'd be surprised at how many people DON"T see the horn the way it is now.


----------



## P_4SPL

That driver must slam in the door, it is a pro driver as well correct?


----------



## Patrick Bateman

P_4SPL said:


> I have to mention Morel recently released some new driver Technology in regards to their Midrange and woofer Models.
> 
> Their new Rohacell technology is designed to dampen the output of the driver.
> 
> *Morel:*
> 
> *The combination of these materials
> creates a diaphragm that exhibits controlled
> cancelling break up (accurate–flexing), meaning
> each break-up mode is counteracted by another in
> the opposite direction.*
> 
> _Apprently this solves my need to reduce those sharp nodes via software. _


Focal's been making diaphragms out of foam composites for at least a decade 

Aurum Cantus uses the technology too. I can't think of anyone else that does. My 'hunch' is that it's too heavy and inconsistent to be practical for a loudspeaker. Here's what I mean by this:

Let's say that you're buying a bicycle and you find one that's made of foam and carbon fiber, like Trek used to make in the 90s. *If the frame weight is off by 10%, that's not a huge deal.* But in a loudspeaker, it's a very big deal, because now you have two woofers that don't match.

And it's really difficult to get perfect consistency with composites, because the manufacture is still very labor intensive. For instance, the method that Lamborghini uses is so simple, you could practically do it in your back yard. It's very very labor intensive, and prone to manufacturing defects. Completely different than the old days, when you'd make a mold, pour aluminum in it, and get the same part, day in and day out.

Here's what Zaph had to say about these composite cones:

_"Comments: An apparently well built woofer that is marred by some performance and consistency issues. A very high Qts severely limits usability. A 2nd sample tested also revealed a high Qts, though a bit lower along with a large difference in sensitivity. These are large strikes against consistency, and who knows what you'll get if you buy a pair. The response curve performance is average with a slight hiccup at 1100Hz. The harmonic distortion profile points to a simple motor that generally performs about as well as some under $30 woofers. Tested June 2009._









For no particular reason, here's a train made out of rohacell.


----------



## thehatedguy

The Image Dynamics xS speakers have Rohacell cones too.


----------



## P_4SPL

* I can see that the rohacell can introduce Harmonics that would create a node similar to having a dual speaker on the same surface.

* My understanding of the use of it is to inhibit the rear wave's that can bounce off the back of shallow door panels and create unwanted sharp harmonics that can create multiple nodes (or surface nodes from mp3 music).

* I would not find it practical in controlled environments such as a speaker cabinet.


----------



## Diezel10

P_4SPL said:


> That driver must slam in the door, it is a pro driver as well correct?



 I bet that Snare make ya' flinch


----------



## thehatedguy

You've lost me on those three points and the mechanics of how that would even work...and some of it I don't even know what you are talking about.


----------



## Diezel10

I would also love to see how you finished those horns.


----------



## P_4SPL

*I'm currently adding some release delay to the Track at certain low -freq's. Horns and woofers can be in your face instead of enjoying them with Taller soundstage this effect should provide. It should mellow the sound while filling up alot of cabin space staging.

*Soon see.


----------



## P_4SPL

* More pics on the way.


----------



## P_4SPL

* Bit of a Delay, please stand by.


----------



## bigbubba

These are mine. Still have some work to do with them.


----------



## subterFUSE

Cool. Looks like a good transition from the horn to the dash.

Are your midbass in the kicks under that carpet?


----------



## bigbubba

Thanks. The passenger side transition needs to be smoothed out some more but I'm working on that. The glove box reverse hinge is not helpful.

Yes, I just swapped out my Scan's for a set of Beyma 8G40's.


----------



## subterFUSE

I'm running 8G40s myself, but mine are in the door.
I like the kick panel setup. Kinda wish that's how mine were installed.


----------



## Mike Hall

Here is my old civic install. This car would jam pretty darn well to some Metallica. :laugh: I think this is by far the best sounding I car I have installed my 20 year old ID horns in. I did have them installed in a 1989 mustang once and they sounded sweet but this civic was one sweet package. Those are some Dyaudio 7" midbass drives and I have no clue what the specs are as this car was built about 14 years ago. 

Mike


----------



## mikey7182

I don't know what's more sexy, the Stroker wall or That bank of old school Fosgate amps!


----------



## JoshHefnerX

That's pretty excessive, I like it!


----------



## Mike Hall

I used to be all about excessive. It was like a live concert in that car. Not only did it sound good although not setup for pure sound quality it was also one of the loudest SPL cars in the south east. When a single power 1000 per sub I managed a 161db at 3 different shows and after i build the amp rack and installed two BD1000 amps per sub, i was hitting over 162db on the shop meter. The car hurt you when you sat in it, it messed with your heart beat and breathing bad if you sat in it at those levels. I just remember cruising to the shows jamming out to some old school Metallica. The strokers were tuned to 42hz from what I remember and i build the enclosure as big as would possibly fit in that car. If i remember right I had 14cu ft per enclosure and there were two enclosures. That little car was running around with 5 sheets of MDF, 4 stroker 15s and 4 batteries in the back and it handled it like a champ. Anyhow, the horns are the focal point of the this thread. haha


----------



## SteveH!

anybody got some gates sq explorer pics?


----------



## bigbubba

SteveH! said:


> anybody got some gates sq explorer pics?


I have a magazine with an article on it at home. I can scan it when I get back next week.


----------



## SteveH!

that would be awesome! i remember AS&S did a feature on thee build up of the sq explorer. i loved that build. thanks bubba


----------



## P_4SPL

* That car is nuts!, I remember seeing it somewhere with those subs, things we do for car audio.


----------



## SQram

SteveH! said:


> anybody got some gates sq explorer pics?



I have the horns out of it...;-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## upgrayedd

this count?


----------



## thehatedguy

Almost


----------



## Diezel10

SQram said:


> Here is a pic of a straight through adapter design another member posted here a while back, didn't gain much attention...
> 
> If you progress with this idea, please keep us informed, I would be most interested in picking up a set in either throat size as well...





HAPPY NEW Year and resurrecting an old thread...held on to your drawing (Thank you) I finally got around to talking to a machinist that would give up some time and listen to this project, he stated:

1. CNC and then weld or bond them together them together (aluminum)
2. Create a Mold and Inject a "Dense" PET

I am moving forward with this so your answer is appreciated.

since then I have purchased an electronic emergency brake for my truck (eliminating 1 pedal) 



Thank you,

D


----------



## SQram

Diezel-

Here was my solution, I had a set 3D printed and they fit perfectly.
I mounted them on the Veritas bodies but unfortunately they are too big (deep) to fit in my current install, I'm using the Illusion horns for now.



SQram said:


> Modeled some adapters on the weekend, now to find somewhere to get them printed up...


----------



## derickveliz

*How do you guys measure PLD when using horns? from the driver I guess?*

D.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

derickveliz said:


> *How do you guys measure PLD when using horns? from the driver I guess?*
> 
> D.


The apparent origin of a sound depends on the dimensions of the duct that it's radiating from.

IE, in a horn or waveguide the apparent origin can be anywhere from the throat to the mouth, AND it varies with frequency!


----------



## derickveliz

Patrick Bateman said:


> The apparent origin of a sound depends on the dimensions of the duct that it's radiating from.
> 
> IE, in a horn or waveguide the apparent origin can be anywhere from the throat to the mouth, AND it varies with frequency!


*Thanks! x 1K for the fast response Patrick.

So I'm going to push the horns deep under the dash but also for the left horn as far left possible, right? (I don't have a truck, it's a 4 door sedan)*

I'm sorry to ask this here, I promise I'll post pictures of my horns, just trying to get the basics!... Eric has been very nice educating me about horns, I don't want to bomb him with basic questions.

I know if I start posting here I'll get things done (sooner or later lol).

D.


----------



## thehatedguy

As far back as you can get them, as wide as you can get them. If you have a gap between the horn and the dash, make a simple filler panel.


----------



## derickveliz

thehatedguy said:


> As far back as you can get them, as wide as you can get them. If you have a gap between the horn and the dash, make a simple filler panel.


*Thanks, here is what I'll do, 
-remove the plastic panel in the kick area and gain about 3" to the left
-as far back against the firewall/front left wheel well
-Parallel to the ground

see below...*



*The mouth of the horn almost matches the flow of the dashboard upwards... like this:*



*Thoughts, comments or advice? (are welcome)

Here is the passenger's side...*




D.


----------



## thehatedguy

Looks about like how they were under the dash of my IS300.


----------



## derickveliz

thehatedguy said:


> Looks about like how they were under the dash of my IS300.


*I'm sure it was/is a great sound system, any pictures?*

D.


----------



## thehatedguy

Nothing in it now.

Every so often I get a wild hair and want to try new stuff, while some of it is good in it's own way, I keep coming back to the horns.

Right now I keep going back and forth on my "small" system idea and my "big" system idea...dunno which one to roll with, but both have horns.


----------



## derickveliz

thehatedguy said:


> Nothing in it now.
> 
> Every so often I get a wild hair and want to try new stuff, while some of it is good in it's own way, I keep coming back to the horns.
> 
> Right now I keep going back and forth on my "small" system idea and my "big" system idea...dunno which one to roll with, but both have horns.


*Cool, *

I've never done a system *with horns,* as a matter of fact I've never *heard a system with horns*, but from what I've learn in the past 7 years, car specific and ergonomics horns is the way to go for my ride!

D.


----------



## thehatedguy

Horns are different. They are very polarizing. Some people would never be happy without them, and some people will never like them...and some people love them when they can't see them.


----------



## Diezel10

thehatedguy said:


> Horns are different. They are very polarizing. Some people would never be happy without them, and some people will never like them...and some people love them when they can't see them.


epper: Smack Dab Center Mass!!...your statement is so true!!.....every vehicle that I have owned.......Trusty ole' horns are installed...this may sound artificial but I will not listen to anything in my vehicle until my horns have been installed...I Love'm


----------



## derickveliz

*I got a text message from Eric, with a picture of my mini horns and a tracking # YES! (o: Thank you Eric... I hope you feel better now.*



D.


----------



## subterFUSE

I think he gets high from the fumes every time he presses a new batch. LOL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SweetJazz

Diezel10 said:


> I can see that Driver Peaking out from Underneath!!!.....nice install.


Good eye. The drivers are actually mounted above the midbass enclosures. I think that black plastic piece you see is part of the ventilation system.


----------



## FLDUBBIN

Been lurking for a while now. Thought I would share what I've been working on.

































I'll update with more pictures as I continue with the install. These are ES Full size horns with CD Ultra drivers.


----------



## probillygun

Looks great! keep us posted on your progress...


----------



## nadams5755

FLDUBBIN said:


> Been lurking for a while now. Thought I would share what I've been working on.
> <snip>
> I'll update with more pictures as I continue with the install. These are ES Full size horns with CD Ultra drivers.


looks like a mk6 golf, installing mini horns in this car was relatively easy. all i had to snip some plastic off the kick panel plastic, relocate the under-dash lights, and the datalink connector.


----------



## lsm

I really like the way you mounted these. Very nice!



FLDUBBIN said:


> View attachment 59334
> 
> 
> View attachment 59335
> 
> 
> View attachment 59336
> 
> 
> View attachment 59337


----------



## lsm

Here's my drivers side horn installed. I'm using trimmed Eric Stevens fullsize bodies mounted through the firewall.

Mounted/Mocked up


Clutch Clearance


Hole cut


Full Size Body 


I'm planning to use Eric's Ultra motors and a pair of fiberglass straight fire bodies Matt Borgardt is making for me. I'm taking the car to a metal fab shop to have enclosures welded in place once I get everything dialed in correctly and sounding good.


----------



## lsm

Here's a few pics of my Veritas installed:


----------



## P_4SPL

* Are those veritas horn bodies molded with Kevlar Material?


----------



## derickveliz

P_4SPL said:


> * Are those veritas horn bodies molded with Kevlar Material?


*No, Looks like a wire mesh covering the mouth of the horn, like a screen to protect.*

D.


----------



## lsm

P_4SPL said:


> * Are those veritas horn bodies molded with Kevlar Material?


If you're talking about mine they're made out of Aluminum.


----------



## lsm

derickveliz said:


> *No, Looks like a wire mesh covering the mouth of the horn, like a screen to protect.*
> 
> D.


Exactly. Just a grill....


----------



## P_4SPL

* Just clicked on the pic, it is a black mesh grill, from the posted pics it looks like kevlar mesh or something when it's not enlarged.

How do you like their sound?

It's taken me Digital DSP's as well as ~ Remastering / mixing each song I play in the car to reduce/ tame their harsh character.


----------



## Diezel10

I had the Veritas AW1.75VD's with Beryllium Diaphragms..If I would play anything with a strong horn section like Chicago or Tower of Power they would ring like bells.....now with the TAD's completely different animal.


----------



## Diezel10

P_4SPL said:


> * Just clicked on the pic, it is a black mesh grill, from the posted pics it looks like kevlar mesh or something when it's not enlarged.
> 
> How do you like their sound?
> 
> It's taken me Digital DSP's as well as ~ Remastering / mixing each song I play in the car to reduce/ tame their harsh character.




How do you remaster? if I may ask.


----------



## lucillemay

mikey7182 said:


> Illusion CH-1/B&C DE500 in a 2005 Dodge Magnum (2118 in sealed kicks):


I have a few more of the Accord that I can post up...including some cutting of the inner


----------



## P_4SPL

Diezel10 said:


> How do you remaster? if I may ask.


* I think I already posted that info in this forum.

Basically ~ I run the track through a compressor> So ANY off angle simblance is removed> and coherent highs are disperesed evenly> then I write the track> play it in the vehicle and any highs that would have otherwise sound harsh and abrsaive are more contoured> It's an amazing effect> that it lets you listen to any audio you like instead of searching for tracks that would sound good.

I do that for most of my Music for my Vehicle etc.


----------



## Diezel10

P_4SPL said:


> * I think I already posted that info in this forum.
> 
> Basically ~ I run the track through a compressor> So ANY off angle simblance is removed> and coherent highs are disperesed evenly> then I write the track> play it in the vehicle and any highs that would have otherwise sound harsh and abrsaive are more contoured> It's an amazing effect> that it lets you listen to any audio you like instead of searching for tracks that would sound good.
> 
> I do that for most of my Music for my Vehicle etc.




Appreciate the guidance., I will look for that post.

Thank you,

D


----------



## P_4SPL

These are concert Grade compression drivers, if you've ever been to a concert you know how loud things get, and even at those levels, I can gaurantee that the Sound engineers there... use compression to curve out those sharp transients the horns can produce, otherwise the concert would sound like ass.

Take a track with alot of simblance and play it back on your desktop speakers, or even your home theater setup, sit near the tweeter area off angle, most tweeters are 1" , so in comparison, if you hear simblance even minutely assume the track was well done, take that fraction of simblance and multiply now by x10, and in fact add 2-4" dispersion to it...this equates to how the Highs will sound played back through the waveguides> they take that small fraction of simblance and multiply it (due to off angle dispersion) and thus increase the saturation and width of that simblance...something that does not sound well at all, but...can be tolerated, but is IMO not natural way to reproduce music through a speaker...the higher diameter dome and large horn body amplifies those small simblance signatures as it travels and becomes excited inside the metal horn cavity, thus a high freq gain is produced> you can say an EQ will reduce that gain, what an EQ cannot do is reduce it's dispersion pattern inside the horn cavity. Something IMO a compressor can curve out without losing too much detail in the track. It's a big trade of for Horns, if your into fine detail, horns are not going to give you that reolution without breaking up inside the horn body> if you like sounstage, width, depth, and dynamic transients and quick impact, horns / waveguides can do that wonderfully.


----------



## derickveliz

*Little by little getting there! this is the right side position for the mn horns and Midbass.

Now I need some sanding on the kick, what should I get to cover the kick, something like black carpet easy to instal? any recommendations are welcome? Thanks*







D.


----------



## thehatedguy

I like how you have the pods in contact with the bottom of the horns. 

But if it were me, I would be getting some way of blending/transitioning the pods to the car in a more gradual way.

And if it helps, you don't really NEED to aim those midbasses since they will probably be well below beaming.


----------



## Mic10is

^^^ Agreed^^

I would spend more time integrated the those pods into the kick panels and sides. make them look like they belong and follow the contours of the vehicle.


Integration in general seems to almost be a lost art in installs these days. look at the shapes and lines in your car and make similar shapes and follow the lines. then they will look like they belong there.

Carpet is easiest, but in most instances black carpet can have the cheapest look to it even compared to your basic charcoal grey trunk liner carpet.


----------



## derickveliz

*The integration to the car lines sounds amazing, I should have thought about that! Thanks for the tip.

Having little experience (these are my first kick pods I make) getting to this point... I'm pretty happy so far.

I'm hopping that having everything black down there it kind of disappears in the dark, and I like that. But I would like to consider the integration for the Left side since I'm removing the kick panel completely to gain a couple of inches in width and depth, but I have a question about aiming the Midbass...

I don't really need to aim them... LPF will be somewhere between 800Hz to 1kHz for the Midbass and the Mini Horns will pick up from there, is that right?.*

D.
ps... thanks for the feedback!


----------



## fish

derickveliz said:


> *
> I don't really need to aim them... LPF will be somewhere between 800Hz to 1kHz for the Midbass and the Mini Horns will pick up from there, is that right?.*
> 
> D.
> ps... thanks for the feedback!



From memory, I don't think you'd want to cross the minis below 1.2k, but let's wait & see what the horn gurus have to say.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

I cross mine at 20khz.


----------



## Eric Stevens

derickveliz said:


> * but I have a question about aiming the Midbass...
> 
> I don't really need to aim them... LPF will be somewhere between 800Hz to 1kHz for the Midbass and the Mini Horns will pick up from there, is that right?.*


You want to low pass the midbass at around 1200 Hz or higher and high pass the horns at the same frequency.

Even at 1500 Hz the 6.5" will be in the power response range and aiming is not important.


----------



## P_4SPL

* Bandpass works well with horns and midbass ~ Mid bass start @ 100HZ-1.2khz where horns start off...any lower for the Veritas and Sound stage / horns can become directional.


----------



## derickveliz

Eric Stevens said:


> You want to low pass the midbass at around 1200 Hz or higher and high pass the horns at the same frequency.
> 
> Even at 1500 Hz the 6.5" will be in the power response range and aiming is not important.


*Got it!

Thanks for the information, I will do...*

D.


----------



## SteveH!

Steve Collotta - 1993 Ford Thunderbird - 1993 AS&S


----------



## Mic10is

Femi Adegoke - 1992 Pontiac Grand Prix - 1997 AS&S


----------



## jpeezy

Mic10is said:


> Femi Adegoke - 1992 Pontiac Grand Prix - 1997 AS&S


dude thanks for posting this, ive been looking for this article for so long, femi's car was just such a raw in your face install, i still enjoy seeing it today.


----------



## derickveliz

*Here is my first attempt on locating the Left mini-horn as far Left and deep.

I cut a little bit of the frame and gain about an inch on each direction.

I think I'm going to cut more and gain another inch to the Left side to expand the Width of the stage as much as possible.*




D.


----------



## derickveliz

*Left Horn is in!*





D.


----------



## Eric Stevens

I like it


----------



## SteveH!

Matt Hashimoto - 1987 Chevrolet Camaro -1996 CSR


----------



## SteveH!

Peter Viljanen - 1991 Honda Accord - 1995 CSR


----------



## SteveH!

Brantley Miller - 1994 Pontiac Firebird Formula - 1997 CSR


----------



## SteveH!

Jason Shoefstall - 1990 Toyota 4Runner - 1998 CSR


----------



## SteveH!

Les Young - Ford Mustang - 2001 AS&S


----------



## SteveH!

Joe Amore - 1996 Honda Prelude - 1998 CA&E


----------



## SteveH!

John Hooper - 1979 Porsche 911 - 1998 CA&E


----------



## SteveH!

Dann Merritt - 1990 Isuzu Trooper - 1996 AS&S


----------



## SteveH!

Ralph Benedetti - 1987 Chevrolet S-10 - 1997 CSR


----------



## SteveH!

Alvin Hernandez - 1990 Acura Integra - 1993 CA&E

Alvin Hernandez - 1990 Acura Integra - 1994 AS&S


----------



## SteveH!

Earl Wills - 1994 Chevrolet Impala SS - 1995 CA&E


----------



## SteveH!

Rusty Schoonover - 1993 Nissan Altima - 1997 CSR


----------



## SteveH!

Gerald Garrison - 1974 Porsche 911 Carrera - CA&E 1997


----------



## nextproject

SteveH! said:


> Matt Hashimoto - 1987 Chevrolet Camaro -1996 CSR


Hahaha.... I showed Eric Holdaway horns would fit under the defroster vents back in the day and the next week their installer (Not Patrick) was molding an all custom dash pad for this car... Installer hated me for the work I caused him... 
Never did see it complete or hear it


----------



## Eric Stevens

SteveH! said:


> Gerald Garrison - 1974 Porsche 911 Carrera - CA&E 1997


Thanks for posting all the links.


----------



## SteveH!

lol, my ocd got involved. i guess i got a bit horn happy.


----------



## derickveliz

*Finally both sides, Kicks and mini horns completed! *



D.


----------



## subwoofery

Kelvin


----------



## nextproject

Well... Have to re do the left side for the third time so I dont have a pic of the left..
The Toyota Service dept has kicked and broken my left side 2 times now trying to kick the E-Brake thats in my bedroom closet

Heres the right tho... My First 100% Horn Install


----------



## thehatedguy

Let me know how it all works out...especially those subs. Been meaning to email you, started back to school last week on Monday and a new job on Tuesday.


----------



## derickveliz

*After installing and tuning with ID mini-horns, I got a very solid Center image in the middle of the dashboard about chin height. Sounds natural and very realistic, Impact and dynamics are awesome. I've been able to tune and recreate a better sound stage instead of using cone speakers.

I can't complain, the mini horns perform really good, and the more volume I turn on the better they sound with very little distortion... 

The only issue (not really but always looking for a better sound stage)...

The Left side of the stage (Pilot's side) with technical tracks everything above 800 Hz reaches the sail panel bringing the stage far left, but at around 300-700 Hz it pulls in about 2-3 inches.

I have a couple of ideas to minimize this issue in the near future, it's all about perfection and better sound! this is the never ending story.

But again! thanks to Eric's and the mini-horns, brilliant design and a better way to bring the sound straight to our ears with fewer reflexions. *

D.


----------



## Mic10is

derickveliz said:


> *After installing and tuning with ID mini-horns, I got a very solid Center image in the middle of the dashboard about chin height. Sounds natural and very realistic, Impact and dynamics are awesome. I've been able to tune and recreate a better sound stage instead of using cone speakers.
> 
> I can't complain, the mini horns perform really good, and the more volume I turn on the better they sound with very little distortion...
> 
> The only issue (not really but always looking for a better sound stage)...
> 
> The Left side of the stage (Pilot's side) with technical tracks everything above 800 Hz reaches the sail panel bringing the stage far left, but at around 300-700 Hz it pulls in about 2-3 inches.
> 
> I have a couple of ideas to minimize this issue in the near future, it's all about perfection and better sound! this is the never ending story.
> 
> But again! thanks to Eric's and the mini-horns, brilliant design and a better way to bring the sound straight to our ears with fewer reflexions. *
> 
> D.


reflection off the center console. make a panel with 1" acoustic foam, covered in whatever breathable fabric you want for aesthetic purposes and then attach to center console.


----------



## Eric Stevens

Mic10is said:


> reflection off the center console. make a panel with 1" acoustic foam, covered in whatever breathable fabric you want for aesthetic purposes and then attach to center console.


What Mic said 

If far left at those frequencies is in line with the midbass the absorption panel wont help. You can test the theory with a large folded towel also.


----------



## Jesus Christ




----------



## derickveliz

Eric Stevens said:


> What Mic said
> 
> If far left at those frequencies is in line with the midbass the absorption panel won't help. You can test the theory with a large folded towel also.


*Agree with Eric (but thanks for the suggestion Mic10is), 
If I could just install my MidBass further out to the Left my issue would minimize, but I can't go in that direction unless I cut into the structure of the car.

That is why I order a full size horn from you, the Horn goes further Left than the MidBass and since I can cross the full size Horn a tad lower than the Mini-horn, some of my Width issues could go away.

I love experimenting so we will see how it goes. Probably I'll be the first one with different horns on each side.* :builder2:

D.


----------



## SQram

One of my favorite horn cars from back in the day, unfortunately there's no pictures of them in the article, but you get the idea...


----------



## thehatedguy

I don't know if I know that car...looks cool though.


----------



## Eric Stevens

I did alot of the install work in that car with Rick Ivey. It was a fun car wtih the Focals in the kicks and CD2Comp full size horns under the dash with a manual trans. It took first place at IASCA finals in 95 I believe, and by about 45 points to its nearest competitor.


----------



## goodstuff

derickveliz said:


> *Finally both sides, Kicks and mini horns completed! *
> 
> 
> 
> D.


When can I hear it? I'm building up a system in my girlfriends car. Lets meet up soon!


----------



## thehatedguy

Eric was that the Civic you told me about at SVR where you cut the metal around the door hinges to slide the horns in from outside the car?


----------



## Eric Stevens

thehatedguy said:


> Eric was that the Civic you told me about at SVR where you cut the metal around the door hinges to slide the horns in from outside the car?


No but it was air hammered in the wheel well area and kicks to make room for magnets and motors. 

Matt cut out the wheel well in another Civic to fit the FS Horns with large motors on them. he fiberglassed them to fit around the motor.


----------



## thehatedguy

Maybe that is where he got the idea for me to cut my old Accord and stick the motors out into the tire well...he knew exactly how I should do it, as if he had done it before, or was a good BSer. Which both is probably true...lol.


----------



## Mic10is

thehatedguy said:


> Maybe that is where he got the idea for me to cut my old Accord and stick the motors out into the tire well...he knew exactly how I should do it, as if he had done it before, or was a good BSer. Which both is probably true...lol.


I did that in the Integra too. same influence. Matt acted like it wasnt anything special.

...just cut a hole in the kick panel and put the motor in the fender area


----------



## thehatedguy

Tape the motors up, wrap them in fleece, stick it through the hole, glass the fleece and then glass the fleece to the car.

Easy peezy.

I was worried about making them level...lol, because you don't get too many tries.


----------



## SteveH!

the infamous truck with horns under the seats! Matt Billmeier - 1995 Dodge Ram - 1997 CA&E


----------



## derickveliz

goodstuff said:


> When can I hear it? I'm building up a system in my girlfriends car. Lets meet up soon!


*Any day it's good, just let me know when.

I can't stop telling myself how good the Horns are.*


D.


----------



## derickveliz

*A little challenge...*

*Mute* all your speakers *but the Horn that sits in front of you*, play frequencies from 1 khz up to 3.5 kHz or so...

In my case left Horn it's the only one playing while I play the frequencies, I should hear everything only with my Left ear, if not we have an issue!

I took the challenge and found out that at 2.3 kHz I could hear it with both ears, so I place a small pillow (blocking the signal to right ear) next to the horn. Not an obvious improvement on the image, 

*but I'm sure that is why installing horns as far left and right as possible is so important. *

D.


----------



## dawaro

Eric Stevens said:


> No but it was air hammered in the wheel well area and kicks to make room for magnets and motors.
> 
> Matt cut out the wheel well in another Civic to fit the FS Horns with large motors on them. he fiberglassed them to fit around the motor.


We actually did that on several vehicles when Matt was still at Audio Designs.

The Civic Eric mentioned was the guinea pig for most of Matt's ideas. It was owned by Chris Towle and published in AS&S in 3/98.

We also cut the wheel wells out on my '97 Ram truck that was in CSR in '98.

We always tried to push them as far out and back as we possibly could.


----------



## lostthumb

dawaro said:


> We actually did that on several vehicles when Matt was still at Audio Designs.
> 
> The Civic Eric mentioned was the guinea pig for most of Matt's ideas. It was owned by Chris Towle and published in AS&S in 3/98.
> 
> We also cut the wheel wells out on my '97 Ram truck that was in CSR in '98.
> 
> We always tried to push them as far out and back as we possibly could.


Was your RAM truck green? CD2s under the dash with IDQ8s in floors?
If so, I remember it way back then.


----------



## dawaro

lostthumb said:


> Was your RAM truck green? CD2s under the dash with IDQ8s in floors?
> If so, I remember it way back then.


That was the one. We had to remodel the parking break to cut into the fender well to push the horns out. To get enough air space for the 8's we had to cut the floor out and fiberglass around it. Once it was undercoated it just looked like part of the truck when you looked under it.

Matt would just kind of experiment with each install and build on what worked. He had already pushed the horns out on another Ram truck and several cars but my truck was the guinea pig for cutting out the floor. IIRC we ended up doing that on several other cars in the future.


----------



## lostthumb

I remember you then. We were the ones with the Hondas / Acuras that came by the shop frequently.


----------



## dawaro

lostthumb said:


> I remember you then. We were the ones with the Hondas / Acuras that came by the shop frequently.


Going to have to give me a little more than that. Back then everyone had a Honda...
In fact several of the guys with Hondas and Acuras where in the photo shoot for the CSR article.


----------



## lostthumb

How about the really low Hondas?
Or the "heavy set" asian guy.

lol.


----------



## dawaro

Yea, I remember you guys. Were'nt you and Vinnie in the photo shoot for the truck?


----------



## SteveH!

aside from eldrdge's 4runner, this is the other car that got me wanting to try horns firing at the windsshield Ray Price - 1992 Chevrolet Cavalier - 1997 CA&E


----------



## thehatedguy

I tell you, there was a green Grand Torino that had some Veritas horns up high like that...really nice install. I think there was Orion concept amps and green stained wood (maybe). Butch Rosales (maybe) was his name.


----------



## SteveH!

i think i remember that one too. it was in one of the mags


----------



## SteveH!

hey winslow, guess what : Butch Rosales - 1972 Ford Gran Torino - 1998 CA&E


----------



## thehatedguy

Right on Mr Steve!


----------



## SteveH!

Jeremy Nelson - 1989 Ford Bronco II - 1998 CA&E


----------



## SteveH!

Jaed Arzadon - 1994 Honda Civic - 1998 CA&E


----------



## Niebur3

^^^^I love the quality of OS builds.


----------



## thehatedguy

Loved that install.




SteveH! said:


> Jaed Arzadon - 1994 Honda Civic - 1998 CA&E


----------



## Brian_smith06

SteveH! said:


> aside from eldrdge's 4runner, this is the other car that got me wanting to try horns firing at the windsshield Ray Price - 1992 Chevrolet Cavalier - 1997 CA&E


Never seen this build but I had a 92 cavalier as my first car so naturally I love this build! This is leaps and bounds better than what I ever ran in my cavalier. Probably still leaps and bounds from anything I have ever run to be honest.


----------



## AccordUno

thehatedguy said:


> Loved that install.


I probably got pictures of it from one of the finals I attended as a spectator..


----------



## Eric Stevens

Lots of cool cars bringing back good memories


----------



## SteveH!

Marc Dall - 1994 BMW 325is - 1998 CA&E


----------



## thehatedguy

I remember that one from the magazine...at the time I thought it was crazy to put a M3 motor in a 325...and the fact they made a big deal over the all wood kick panels.


----------



## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> I remember that one from the magazine...at the time I thought it was crazy to put a M3 motor in a 325...and the fact they made a big deal over the all wood kick panels.


I loved that car , 

I had my first set of IDQ 8 s in sealed wood boxes , except mine were square lol . But that speaker sealed in a small box sounded quite good . Back when I liked my horns at 500hz . I was the king of dented diaphrams tho . I didn't quite know how to control myself.


----------



## season_of_ages

So I finally mocked up some CD Pros in my Mazdaspeed 6. First ever attempt and actually hearing a set of horns. Wow. To get them settled in nicely is gonna be pain in the rear...


----------



## oabeieo

season_of_ages said:


> So I finally mocked up some CD Pros in my Mazdaspeed 6. First ever attempt and actually hearing a set of horns. Wow. To get them settled in nicely is gonna be pain in the rear...
> View attachment 103698
> View attachment 103706


Don't give up. When you first install them you'll be frustrated finding the right combo on the eq. They are super sensitive to even tiny changes on the eq, 
Kill your peaks at 2.5-4khz and don't be afraid to do some radical cuts on the eq.


----------



## Mic10is

thehatedguy said:


> I remember that one from the magazine...at the time I thought it was crazy to put a M3 motor in a 325...and the fact they made a big deal over the all wood kick panels.


know what I know about that exact car I question their decision making on the location and application of the kick panels.


----------



## season_of_ages

Finally got em strapped in properly. Using thick paper to cover the gap between the dash for the meantime. 
Next step I'm gonna order a pair of Cadence CVL64MB to drop into the doors for now. Eventually I wanna look into the 8 inch drivers to get a grasp on fiberglass fabrication!


----------



## Mic10is

season_of_ages said:


> View attachment 104314
> View attachment 104322
> 
> Finally got em strapped in properly. Using thick paper to cover the gap between the dash for the meantime.
> Next step I'm gonna order a pair of Cadence CVL64MB to drop into the doors for now. Eventually I wanna look into the 8 inch drivers to get a grasp on fiberglass fabrication!


youve got the basic idea. drill a hole where you put a screw in the front and move the strapping to the backside and use a nut and bolt to secure them for a much cleaner look


----------



## season_of_ages

Wait I just realized something. Horns usually have an 8 ohm impedance correct? From what I understand, this poses no problem for an amp rated at 4 ohms. But, what then is the power output? I have these hooked up to my Eclipse EA4100 which supposedly only produces 75 watts per channel. It must be less now, I assume. I planned 100 to the horns, 300 to midbass and 500 to subs


----------



## subterFUSE

season_of_ages said:


> Wait I just realized something. Horns usually have an 8 ohm impedance correct? From what I understand, this poses no problem for an amp rated at 4 ohms. But, what then is the power output? I have these hooked up to my Eclipse EA4100 which supposedly only produces 75 watts per channel. It must be less now, I assume. I planned 100 to the horns, 300 to midbass and 500 to subs



Half of the 4 ohm output of the amp.

You don't need much power with horns. 10 watts is enough to melt your face off if you like that sort of thing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LumbermanSVO

season_of_ages said:


> Wait I just realized something. Horns usually have an 8 ohm impedance correct? From what I understand, this poses no problem for an amp rated at 4 ohms. But, what then is the power output? I have these hooked up to my Eclipse EA4100 which supposedly only produces 75 watts per channel. It must be less now, I assume. I planned 100 to the horns, 300 to midbass and 500 to subs


I have yet to hear of someone saying they didn't have enough power for their horns. But I have heard lots of people saying that 7-10 watts will rip your head off. 

I have a Zapco AG200 on mine and they can handily overpower the rest of the system. I can smell the coils on my (cheap)mids if I attempt to make them keep up with my horns and subs...


----------



## season_of_ages

Really?? Maybe there's a problem with mine! They don't sound as loud as melting my face... In fact I gotta turn down my subs to hear the horns adequately


----------



## subterFUSE

season_of_ages said:


> Really?? Maybe there's a problem with mine! They don't sound as loud as melting my face... In fact I gotta turn down my subs to hear the horns adequately


It's a figure of speech. 

I had 35W going to mine, with amp gains almost at minimum and had the channel gains in the DSP dialed down -8 or -9 dB, plus a fair amount of EQ cut beyond that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## season_of_ages

Someone in north Los Angeles County come help me!!


----------



## Patrick Bateman

If they're not deafening with ten watts, something is connected wrong.


----------



## Mic10is

I had a JL HD900/5 bridged to mine....


----------



## oabeieo

I have 70w going to mine , after eq there's maybe 1v max going in amp with gain all way down , so maybe seeing 10-15w, I like when my hair is singed from output levels


----------



## dawaro

Here is the article from my horn install.


----------



## Eric Stevens

season_of_ages said:


> View attachment 104314
> View attachment 104322
> 
> Finally got em strapped in properly. Using thick paper to cover the gap between the dash for the meantime.
> Next step I'm gonna order a pair of Cadence CVL64MB to drop into the doors for now. Eventually I wanna look into the 8 inch drivers to get a grasp on fiberglass fabrication!


I would like to suggest you choose a different midbass driver. They look nice but have some issues. Go for a 6.5" Faital 6FE200 4 ohm as a better suggestion.


----------



## Eric Stevens

season_of_ages said:


> Wait I just realized something. Horns usually have an 8 ohm impedance correct? From what I understand, this poses no problem for an amp rated at 4 ohms. But, what then is the power output? I have these hooked up to my Eclipse EA4100 which supposedly only produces 75 watts per channel. It must be less now, I assume. I planned 100 to the horns, 300 to midbass and 500 to subs


Dont worry about the fact you have 75 watts @ 4 ohms, that is far more than necessary. What you have are 109dB 1W/1M so to get a 90dB driver to have the same output the horns have at 1 watt requires more than 64 watts.

To illustrate for you: 300 watts will achieve a volume gain of just under 25 dB over a drivers 1W/1m rating without adjustment for power compression. If you start with a 90 dB driver this will yield 115 dB. This means we need to attain the same volume from the horns we will need to increase their output by 6 dB which is done with 4 watts ( 109 + 6=115).

75 watts at 4 ohm amplifier will produce a clean 40-45 watts at 8 ohms. this equals about + 16 dB of volume increase, so you will have about 125 dB of volume potential on tap from the horns.


----------



## SteveH!

John Clark - 1998 BMW M3 - 2000 CA&E


----------



## SteveH!

Kenny Bellamy - 1992 Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000 CA&E


----------



## oabeieo

SteveH! said:


> Kenny Bellamy - 1992 Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000 CA&E


I love these cars your putting up.


----------



## SteveH!

i blame Euphonic over at mobilesoundscicence.com lol! i can't hekp but sift thru and find the horn cars.


----------



## SteveH!

one of my favorites! Illusion Audio - 1993 Honda Accord - 1998 CA&E


----------



## SteveH!

Jamie Edmundson - 1990 Honda Civic - 1998 CA&E


----------



## thehatedguy

Loved that car! Didn't help that at the time I had a same body style Accord and liked IA gear, especially the horns.



SteveH! said:


> one of my favorites! Illusion Audio - 1993 Honda Accord - 1998 CA&E


----------



## lsm

SteveH! said:


> Jamie Edmundson - 1990 Honda Civic - 1998 CA&E


Seriously... why isn't this guy wearing shoes.


----------



## lsm

bloobb said:


> I'm in lafayette. I'm in between indy and chicago weekly, traveling for my job is constant. thus the car audio fascination
> I'm always down for a road trip


I'm in Munster which is close to Chicago. I should have my car up and running this summer.


----------



## season_of_ages

Outta curiosity, what's everyone doin for the rear? I'm wondering about passengers in the back. Do horns transfer well to those sitting in the back seat? Esp if one has a huge sub box in the trunk? I was thinking of throwing in some coaxials or something. Or should I just stick to midbass? or components?


----------



## LumbermanSVO

season_of_ages said:


> Outta curiosity, what's everyone doin for the rear? I'm wondering about passengers in the back. Do horns transfer well to those sitting in the back seat? Esp if one has a huge sub box in the trunk? I was thinking of throwing in some coaxials or something. Or should I just stick to midbass? or components?


I have a full-size soft-top Bronco and my friends have no complaints in the back, even at highway speeds with the top off and lots of traffic around us. I've never been in the back with it in motion, but it sounds pretty good when parked.


----------



## thehatedguy

If for competition horn cars generally don't have any rear fill.

If you are cruising around, love great sound, and want something for the kidos in the back seat to enjoy...then do whatever you want. Me, I would put some decent coaxes back there because it's simple and they wouldn't appreciate high end, and then fade to the back until they are happy with the volume balance.


----------



## SteveH!

Tom Petropilos - 1993 Chevrolet S-10 - 1998 CA&E


----------



## dawaro

Hopefully I will have pictures of a horn install on a 2014 Ford F150 FX2 soon.

Horns are being fabricated right now. Soon it will just be a matter of getting off my butt and getting them installed.


----------



## SteveH!

David Roberts - 1997 Dodge Ram - 1998 CSR


----------



## dawaro

SteveH! said:


> David Roberts - 1997 Dodge Ram - 1998 CSR


Hey, that is me...


----------



## derickveliz

*I enjoy looking at all these professional installs, but did you noticed that in most of them they only show a picture of the Passenger's side... and not the Pilot's side! 

I believe there is a secrete behind each system* 

Just in case here is the Pilot's side of my install. 



D.


----------



## dawaro

derickveliz said:


> *I enjoy looking at all these professional installs, but did you noticed that in most of them they only show a picture of the Passenger's side... and not the Pilot's side! *


*

It is difficult to get a driver's side picture without moving the seats. When we did my photo shoot the photographer to pictures from both sides but the steering wheel was always in the way of something...*


----------



## SteveH!

dawaro said:


> Hey, that is me...


awesome! made ya have a flashback


----------



## dawaro

SteveH! said:


> awesome! made ya have a flashback


I feel almost famous now that I have been posted on not one but two audio forums!

I wished you would have posted this about 6 months ago before I got bitten by the bug again...the flashback may have kept me from diving in as far as I have...


----------



## SteveH!

all out or nothing bro.


----------



## dawaro

Just wait until I start my build log, even through I am 6 months into it. I have gone from upgrading factory speakers to 2400 watts, DSP, horns, fiberglass door pods and elaborate sub enclosure with custom upholstery.


----------



## SteveH!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j45x9ranFH0


----------



## DBlevel

Pass side full body ID cd1e in 04 Accord sedan........still more to do before they're finished.


----------



## oabeieo

One of my installers samurai , 8G40s and full size 

He's making the kicks right now . I'll post pics when he's done w them


----------



## oabeieo




----------



## Teddydolan

How in the heck did you get that 10 in there? I have the same truck and the same 10. Also, how do you keep it from getting wet with the water that drips down from the extended part of the window seal that's inside the door.


----------



## Jscoyne2

thehatedguy said:


> Say hello to Joey and the sawall.


this


----------



## Teddydolan

TREETOP said:


> With a boatload of work and a lot of trial and error. Mostly trial, not much error, fortunately.
> 
> It helped that I chose a 10" midbass/midrange that was only 3.15" deep, any deeper and I would have had to make major modifications to either the door panel or the window glass. LOL.
> 
> 8s are a _LOT_ easier to get in there than 10s.


I have 6 of those 10s but avent installed them yet. How do they sound and what is your power and crossover point?


----------



## mfenske

thehatedguy said:


> Loved that car! Didn't help that at the time I had a same body style Accord and liked IA gear, especially the horns.


Every time I see an Accord of this vintage I think of that install. I'd love to get one and do something similar.


----------



## danno14

Dooooo eeet!!!!



mfenske said:


> Every time I see an Accord of this vintage I think of that install. I'd love to get one and do something similar.


----------



## oabeieo

Alan’s BMW 

Running Dirac live on a ddrc 88bm 

Two seat monster! Thing sounds killer! 










Cut out the footrest on driver side pushed the mid way way back giving lots of foot room, and made both sides very symmetrical in PLDs , 

Not sealed pods , the hole in footrest was sort of a decompression chamber that killed resonance, passenger side was cut out of sides and blown into padding into kick panel subframe. 

Oh and the id max sub to top it off 


Alan, start that build thread! Lol your car is sick!


----------



## thehatedguy

Little something I am working on...


----------



## oabeieo

Sunken down 12”? 

Oh dam! Definitely looks JBL , 

I could be wrong but they usually don’t put the “4square” on 10s


----------



## thehatedguy

JBL 2012h 10s and big body horns in my IS300.


----------



## thehatedguy

In retrospect, 12s probably would have fit too. The 2206h have smaller motors than the 2012h 10s.


----------



## thehatedguy

How do you like the Dirac on the big minidsp?


----------



## thehatedguy

If you are on Facebook, I've been posting some progress pictures in Eric's group.


----------



## oabeieo

Ahh still 10s in an IS ! (Ohh lalala) 


Yeah the 88bm is pretty sweet , you have to have the BM upgrade to go active to have use of the xos and delay banks (although the delay banks aren’t really needed Dirac nails it first try most of the time if good clean set measurements are made) 

It’s dam near a pair of 2x4hds with 8ch of Dirac , 

Yeah it’s pretty dam sweet actually, I love how each Dirac measurements can be assigned in blocks or separate, so each driver get its own time delay offsets made by Dirac and the filters generated are specific to that location . 

It’s also nice that you can effectively linearize the crossovers on the target response by just drawing the line on the acoustic slope, and if the acoustic slope is pushed too far downstream from where you want it to roll off you just draw your acoustic slope you want, could just redraw a LR slope that matches the slope you have set in the BM side, another words if your crossed at 1.2k (LR4) and it’s acoustic average looks like a LR4 at 750hz you can simply redraw the one you want or go with what you have as long as it’s not in the stop band it work magically wonderful. 

I didn’t have much tuning time with his car so I only took 2 sets of complete measurements, and one REW set to look at ripple and filter ringing. 


Overall , it does what my rig does with much much much more simplicity
It’s pretty bad ass actually, way better IMO than any helix (completely different critter) 

I’m a bit of a tweaker at heart so I like manual fir banks , but to be absolutely honest , the 88BM can still get it nailed down 97% of what I would do post Dirac via rephrase .


The way it links all the drivers to a single target is really cool on separate filters 

Worked out killer with his car factory radio had balanced line analog outputs (non MOST hifi) , so was able to go balanced in and RCA out to get a full 2vrms out )

Could use balanced out to get more voltage up to 8v however his deck is 2.24Vrms out (measured 5.49v across pos and gnd without shield) so it wouldn’t have gained anything to chop off the rca ends to Phoenix it would have netted the same being the pseudo output would have lost -6db 
Either way would have been unity gain 

Overall , man it’s the hot ticket right now hands down !


----------



## Elgrosso

Wow really cool, so basically it does what we wanted and even better for the driver targets/channel target etc? 
Did you have time to open it? To see how the sharc is wired etc
Did you have two plugins/two usbs to manage or just one? 
I’m thinking how I could load this soft version in mine.
As I have basically all the parts but probably not wired the same since my sharc is 2 out only now.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Wow really cool, so basically it does what we wanted and even better for the driver targets/channel target etc?
> Did you have time to open it? To see how the sharc is wired etc
> Did you have two plugins/two usbs to manage or just one?
> I’m thinking how I could load this soft version in mine.
> As I have basically all the parts but probably not wired the same since my sharc is 2 out only now.



I couldn’t resist 

Inside are a bank of dip switches to tuun down the output so i had a valid reason to crack it open, 
The board is not a bank of minisharcs attached to a main, 
There’s a main board and a daughter board that controls the power supply , and rom. So excellent isolation there, it looked like 2 minisharc chipsets on the main board and the board was gerbered for this case. All SMD (SMT) looked to be IPC class 2 (screen printed reflow) very clean board, no jumpers (wires acting as a trace) . It was printed on blue fiberglass, the main board wasn’t super thin and flimsy , so it may have more than 2 layers (I didn’t look) there were I put attenuation jumpers on headers with standard 2pos shunts and a 1x8 smd dip switch bank for setting output levels (12db cut on down or unity on up) it accepts 12v input and is not PoE. The usb is the old square printer cable (forgot that standard) so they went away from the micro usb witch I thought was nice because adds some strength to the cable port (“ not easy to broken” as Chinese put it). 


It has 2 UI for Dirac and the 88BM , however they are embedded in a way that the Dirac files are somewhat controlled through the 88BM interface (mixing measurements and sending driver measurements to other drivers) 

The 88A (unpurchaced BM) is all the same except you are locked out of all the peq, delay, xo, Dirac mix controls and the Bass management screen,

The bass management screen is sorta cool wanted to explore that more , you can mix down 8 inputs LF and send it to a 9th input and call that the sub channel and send that 9th input to one of the outputs and get a 10db boost and mix all sub frequency to that channel (s) . Nice for discrete 5.1 or 7.1 because it would extract sub from let’s say “surround and center” and send it to sub channel, 
The BM also give you a hpf That is targeted around the BM section in the UI that is separate from any normal HPF you make on the output side. 


I liked how in BM mode the dirac is fully mixable and the user can raise or lower the mix of measurements and send them Ron whatever channels desired, very nice Igbo one had two sets of midbass , or rears. 


It’s well thought out. I’m contemplating getting the 88DI now, however I’m waiting for the 2018 version of Dirac and late 2018 Dirac is coming out with car specific DSP (there beating me to it another conversation). 

This is much more practical than using ddrc24s or 2x4hds . As the 8 separate Dirac sweeps can link to a single target.

In the UI Dirac breaks a multichannel into segments on the final target , it can see where it starts and Rolls off. And when the target setting comes up it automatically only shows the passband And curtains off the stopband so you can draw the target to follow the shape of your acoustic slope thus linearizing your crossover without the pains of near field measurements. Because it doesn’t matter what the crossover is set at , it just lowers the output with a liner phase response as you draw down (-10db) when you go to next driver (measurements) it takes the Target right where you left off , just intersect the target at where your reference point is and it does the rest. Quite nicely as well. 


I would absolutely own one. It’s so next level and anyone can get a professional tune in 5-10min. The wonderful thing I liked the most is the separate sweeps over 8ch is that I don’t didnt have to cut the target Way down because there separate corrections , just on a single target response, so in the target if the sub is 10db higher that energy is not sent to the HP drivers opposed to the 2ch version. That’s nice , everyone knows what boosting our old Alesis or rane eqs in the sub did to our highs (made them distort or blow up) 

I was diggin it. The 88BM is indeed setup great for multichannel


----------



## thehatedguy

And it works on 12volt?


----------



## oabeieo

;5292994 said:


> And it works on 12volt?


Plugs right in to car electrical zero mods needed 




I cut power cord metered out so I knew which wire was centerpin and hooked to car electricity. Works fine no noise no issues 

I also reverse engineer the power input , it has 16v polarized caps (so no worries there) and it has its own regulators on board so even more no worries there . 




Although I wired a relay from remote turn on to a good 10A service to maintain isolation and make it have a remote turn on


----------



## Elgrosso

Maybe we should follow on your thread as it’s well off topic here (?)
But anyway I need to search on their forum but based on pics the daughter board is a regular sharc. My mother board is the same except for the 8 analog in so I need to find out how to plug it cleanly with my minidigi or maybe it can just replace it. But for the plugin that’s a different story...
Thanks for all details man!


----------



## Locomotive Tech

Subd


----------



## rc10mike

Heres some pics of my K5LA install in my Charger;


----------



## thehatedguy

Let's uh, keep it related to audio products.


----------



## thehatedguy

Can you still run rePhase with the 88, or do you even need to?


----------



## quality_sound

thehatedguy said:


> If you are on Facebook, I've been posting some progress pictures in Eric's group.


Which group is that?


----------



## Elgrosso

thehatedguy said:


> Can you still run rePhase with the 88, or do you even need to?


Not the DDrc88, it’s Dirac or manual FIR not both.
Unless there’s a way to load a different plugin like one from the opendrc serie.
I’d say it’s not needed to have both but Andy might say it’s a must


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Not the DDrc88, it’s Dirac or manual FIR not both.
> Unless there’s a way to load a different plugin like one from the opendrc serie.
> I’d say it’s not needed to have both but Andy might say it’s a must





thehatedguy said:


> Can you still run rePhase with the 88, or do you even need to?





No actually, the 88 and Dirac the way it builds a separate correction on each output makes separate fir pointless. 

Got any crazy interference peaks that are near (or far) side biased , no problems just use the target and simply draw a notch in the response at whatever Q or shape you so desire until it’s balanced and Dirac automatically flattens the phase in a purely minimum phase way But without the inherent lag and advance on either side of the center of the peak filter. It allows you to draw peaks without the subsequent harmonic abortion that otherwise a standard minimum phase peak filter would surly have caused a shift. That’s where I have my fir banks and always am forced to do pre and post tunings to get the Dirac correction to affect the response globally over all the speakers on the same side in a way that makes sense. If one had two sets of midbass drivers with one that has a natural peak at 160 and one with a natural dip at 160. Yes Dirac would flatten whatever it’s sum would be in the “measurement box” however it leaves me no control over where I can locate each sets in space. 


With 2ch Dirac on a multiway can’t do that, can draw peaks and it affects it the same way I just described, but with the 88 sometimes the peak you draw you only want to affect 1 speaker not the whole side 

It can deal with reflection well, I’ve been an advocate for separate fir and it’s mostly academic now. With this thing there’s no real big need to go though the hassle of 100+pt measurements and break down data into small bit just to see what’s happening. In acoustic measurements a computer can do it all so much faster than a human and there algo works good. Of course there will be a learning curve as to where the measurement points are made and the levels and such, but that’s only a fraction of the work that one would have to do to get a good filter set. 


It would be mostly pointless to tune with peq pre or post Dirac with the 88 

I would run Dirac and do ALL my post tuning needs within Dirac. 
So easy to achieve one of those rare 2way horn system performance cars where everything comes together just right but better and in a fraction of the time....


Can you run rephrase with it , not that I know of. I’m certain there’s a hack that could be done probably fairly easily. It probably won’t take much to get to get into the directory via usb cable, however I am unclear if the rom is only looking for Dirac extensions. I just don’t know, if I really wanted to do it I would probably open a Dirac correction in notepad or note tab and edit the fir and cut and paste my own fir data into. But that channel would not be able to run both, 
Or I would convert the Dirac file and bring its IR into rephrase and manually edit the file to add what I wanted to get done manually in fir, however it might not be very useful in low frequencies as Dirac would surly have done some sort of optimization on coefficient allocation, so I would imagine each fir has little to no usable power left edit without severe stopband issues or simply just not enough FFT length available and without mentioning Diracs 8 separate filters are tied to a single overall target, editing one would mean you have to keep the phase Dirac puts it the same as its tied on each end to the shape of other drivers (that’s a good thing) long and short of it , yeah you probably could do it , I wouldn’t want to tho.


----------



## thehatedguy

And it doesn't tune the life out of the horns like the MS-8 did?


----------



## drinkchamp

thehatedguy said:


> If you are on Facebook, I've been posting some progress pictures in Eric's group.


what group is this?


----------



## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> And it doesn't tune the life out of the horns like the MS-8 did?


Ha no not even close. 

Ms8 wasn’t that great. For its time when it was very first release it was great. Respectfully, things have come a long way since 2010. So not bashing it or Andy , just a bit dated now. If I were to make a comparison in processing, ms8 would be the old “matrix surround” from the 1970s turntable/tuner combo packs in dresser sized consoles vs. the most modern discreet 7.1 of today’s standards. The difference is that big. Especially in the LF 

It’s just an eq for the most part , 
Imagine a single (dual) 30band rane me30 or meq230 back in the day, 
tuning with it works the same. Except it moves the sliders for you , and you draw the target over the response as to weather it boosts or cuts. 
So it’s algo does what you ask it to , not what some engineer decided to do in a lab with a fixed system parameters. Whatever target response you draw it does it’s magic within what *You* ask of it. 

When I ran Alesis and Rane eqs I never boosted I always cut , (it sounded better) I have similar feeling with this as it is basically the same principle, except it’s digital. With 32bit you have more headroom to boost the signal but it still has to be outputted back to 48/44 or 96k, so imo what difference does it make if you boost or cut, (none at that point at least up to about 10db) however, I still think it sounds better just using cuts instead of boosts just like the old days. I don’t know exactly how it averages the measurements vs digital input gain so I don’t know how close to 0dbFs it actually is, when I use a lot of boost over response I can definitely hear small amounts of clipping in the HF. Being the only show a “normalized “ view compared to what magnitude the output measurements are at. 

TLDR: use cuts and you love it. And with the 88 no need worry about lost gain as you can get boost the output 10db by opening the unit and flipping some switches and than using balanced out to get back to unity.


----------



## thehatedguy

Dirac has their own processor coming out?

And is there any need to do allpass filters external for a 2 way front stage and still get great midbass?


----------



## thehatedguy

And that $1000 price tag...um, not wanting to let go of that right now..lol.


----------



## pocket5s

drinkchamp said:


> what group is this?





quality_sound said:


> Which group is that?


Steven's Audio Group

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1833938579955262/?source_id=102258413519674


----------



## oabeieo

Building another horn system. Pics coming soon, ordering gear this week. 
Stay tuned :-0


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> Building another horn system. Pics coming soon, ordering gear this week.
> Stay tuned :-0


hey your back buddy!


----------



## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> hey your back buddy!


I’m back


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> I’m back


Yeahhh


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Yeahhh


----------



## Frijoles24

mmm. i just got my horns installed. maybe ill come around to taking pics. 

found myself image dynamics cd ultras full bodies with drivers for 175 shipped. Is it just me, or does the plastic bodies smell really bad?

ive spent...40 minutes of tuning while driving. and ive gotten them to sound really nice for a few songs.. and other songs sound soooo bad and sharp


----------



## oabeieo

Frijoles24 said:


> mmm. i just got my horns installed. maybe ill come around to taking pics.
> 
> found myself image dynamics cd ultras full bodies with drivers for 175 shipped. Is it just me, or does the plastic bodies smell really bad?
> 
> ive spent...40 minutes of tuning while driving. and ive gotten them to sound really nice for a few songs.. and other songs sound soooo bad and sharp


Turn down 2.5 to 4khz maybe try centering around 3.6k Q 1.2
To -10db that’s being the only eq on horns for setting gain. than ajust gain down until sounding smoother and listenable 
Than eq down other problem areas. Don’t boost in eq at least until you know what’s actually going on.. even than...mooot 

You definitely overgained. You want the gain to sound like the horns aren’t quite loud enough barely , than fix the midrange and midbass by cutting peaks and should come together.

Read Eric’s tuning horns thread and pay attention to the details of what he says to do. All the little steps matter a lot with horns

And I love the smell of the mold release and urethane. Especially on a hot day  smells like pen ink (yummy)

ALSo pull the diaphragm out of the motor (carefully) gently pull on the voice coil as you pinch the voice coil and see if the glue has separated from the dome. 
Inspect for dents in dome from abusive crossover points from hitting phase plug or debris in throat. Clean the voice coil gap with masking tape and business card and reassemble if all looks good. 

Eric can help you or direct you on a new diaphragm if you need one. 
Good luck


----------



## Frijoles24

oabeieo said:


> Turn down 2.5 to 4khz maybe try centering around 3.6k Q 1.2
> To -10db that’s being the only eq on horns for setting gain. than ajust gain down until sounding smoother and listenable
> Than eq down other problem areas. Don’t boost in eq at least until you know what’s actually going on.. even than...mooot
> 
> You definitely overgained. You want the gain to sound like the horns aren’t quite loud enough barely , than fix the midrange and midbass by cutting peaks and should come together.
> 
> Read Eric’s tuning horns thread and pay attention to the details of what he says to do. All the little steps matter a lot with horns
> 
> And I love the smell of the mold release and urethane. Especially on a hot day  smells like pen ink (yummy)
> 
> ALSo pull the diaphragm out of the motor (carefully) gently pull on the voice coil as you pinch the voice coil and see if the glue has separated from the dome.
> Inspect for dents in dome from abusive crossover points from hitting phase plug or debris in throat. Clean the voice coil gap with masking tape and business card and reassemble if all looks good.
> 
> Eric can help you or direct you on a new diaphragm if you need one.
> Good luck



sweet. I actually saw that horn tuning 101 that eric wrote up. 
Only thing ive done was xovers and the slopes. No ta or eq yet. 

that smell.. pen ink?? hahaha ive never smelled pen ink before. 

I suppose checking the unit would be smart. Though since i put it in, i wont be doing that for a while. Baby is on the way, those drivers were purchased before the baby. installed it in record time with the couple hours i have not setting up baby stuff. Haha


----------



## oabeieo

Frijoles24 said:


> sweet. I actually saw that horn tuning 101 that eric wrote up.
> Only thing ive done was xovers and the slopes. No ta or eq yet.
> 
> that smell.. pen ink?? hahaha ive never smelled pen ink before.
> 
> I suppose checking the unit would be smart. Though since i put it in, i wont be doing that for a while. Baby is on the way, those drivers were purchased before the baby. installed it in record time with the couple hours i have not setting up baby stuff. Haha


 No eq?!!!

At a minimum you have to turn down three to 4K at least 10 DB or they will sound awful that’s just at a minimum 

Private message me if you have any questions let’s stop dirtying up this thread I’ll be happy to help you


----------



## minbari

oabeieo said:


> No eq?!!!
> 
> 
> 
> *At a minimum you have to turn down three to 4K at least 10 DB or they will sound awful that’s just at a minimum *
> 
> 
> 
> Private message me if you have any questions let’s stop dirtying up this thread I’ll be happy to help you


Not sure I agree with that. I had a pair of ID mini body on the CD1e driver that sounded fabulous with only the high end boosted 6db or so. (Above 6khz) cut 3-4khz by 10+db and you will have killed most cymbals.

Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jscoyne2

SteveH! said:


> Jamie Edmundson - 1990 Honda Civic - 1998 CA&E


Any way to get all these links pics to show?


----------



## nyquistrate

Jscoyne2 said:


> Any way to get all these links pics to show?


I think they all disappeared when Photobucket ditched the free accounts.


I would love to see all those old installs . . .

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

Coming soon. 

2003 Chevy venture 43k original miles , super clean van! 

Going to try the Veritas in the grocery getter. The wife will pull up to the sooper with her country jams , all the other moms will be jelin. 

Can’t decide what motor to stick on these? Any recommendations 

the nearest petrol station


----------



## oabeieo

From the look at these horns , it defy looks the the HF is going to have a very hard time making a turn around the bend in the body, from what I was told about the center being dominated by HF looks obvious. 

She dosent have a console but the center of the dash protruding about 4” past lower dash and glove box. 

I’m going to have to do some treatments for sure and maybe tilt them up about 4° Or so 
To get the stage to rise enough. The van sits upright like an suv, but for hers as long as it’s spectral it’s all gravy baby! 

Was just told the 450 radian came on these , I was thinking maybe a radian or a de500 or de550tn


----------



## Eric Stevens

oabeieo said:


> Was just told the 450 radian came on these , I was thinking maybe a radian or a de500 or de550tn


Radian not even close to a DE500 or DE550. Original ID drivers were Radian and while decent no where near the CD2 Comp. I dont think the mouth are and flare rate would take advantage of the DE550 larger diaphragm area.


----------



## oabeieo

Eric Stevens said:


> Radian not even close to a DE500 or DE550. Original ID drivers were Radian and while decent no where near the CD2 Comp. I dont think the mouth are and flare rate would take advantage of the DE550 larger diaphragm area.



I haven’t had a set of 500s I’ve heard lots of good things about them just never had a set. Now I have an excuse to get a set  

What do you think about the difference between the 550 and the 550tn? 
I haven’t had a set of titanium drivers that I liked since the ultras or the cd2 
However I remember loving the ultra sound quite a lot. 

If I wanted a driver that will play lower on maybe another horn (Hint hint ) 
Would you go for the 550 or the 550tn (which is better for low end).


(Meaning I’ll probably swap them out down the road to a better horn, or should I just get the 500)


----------



## Eric Stevens

After reviewing the 550 wont play any lower, just handles more power. The small volume of the rear chamber is the reason. Go polymer no matter what.


----------



## Blazemore

oabeieo said:


> The wife will pull up to the sooper with her country jams , all the other moms will be jelin.


That made me laugh, more than it should have. Good to see a horn install.


----------



## oabeieo

Blazemore said:


> That made me laugh, more than it should have. Good to see a horn install.



It’s partially because she always takes my car wherever she goes and leaves me the van she says she likes to bump and likes the horns. 

So I figure, now whatever car she takes at least I’ll have something to play with. 

As her punishment tho she’s getting the sundown u-15 in the 6th order, and I’m going to do some of Eric’s subs in my car. 
He was telling me about them and wow! I can’t wait to try them. 

I could actually have some trunk space and still have good bass


----------



## ManBearPig

Is there an ETA on subs? I've been patiently waiting lol


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Frijoles24 said:


> mmm. i just got my horns installed. maybe ill come around to taking pics.
> 
> found myself image dynamics cd ultras full bodies with drivers for 175 shipped. Is it just me, or does the plastic bodies smell really bad?
> 
> ive spent...40 minutes of tuning while driving. and ive gotten them to sound really nice for a few songs.. and other songs sound soooo bad and sharp


I have some JBL Control Nows, and after about five years something really strange started to happen to the plastic enclosures. The outside is sticky, like the entire thing is covered in rubber cement. I used acetone to clean it off, and that mostly made it go away.

It's very odd though. I've seen plastic change colors, but I've never seen it decompose like this!


----------



## oabeieo

And another horn system , Jesse’s car. (2010 ish Lancer EVo 

Car is a little dirty but dam it sounded pretty good. 
Alpine xa70f , on ES mB6-2 and focal rears 
Xd4004 bridged on HLCDs 
Jl audio twk88 dsp 
13w7 on a slash 1000/1

I got to say the mb6 gets with it. Oh my gosh that’s a nice sounding speaker. I literally could not believe how much sound came out of that 6.5. Very nice indeed plays nicely down to 100 crossed at 120 LR4 and 960 LR4


----------



## Jscoyne2

Broooo stop it before i spend money I don't have.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## fish

oabeieo,

Did you try the ES MB6 high-passed @80hz?


----------



## CrimsonCountry

oabeieo said:


> And another horn system , Jesse’s car. (2010 ish Lancer EVo
> 
> 
> 
> Car is a little dirty but dam it sounded pretty good.
> 
> Alpine xa70f , on ES mB6-2 and focal rears
> 
> Xd4004 bridged on HLCDs
> 
> Jl audio twk88 dsp
> 
> 13w7 on a slash 1000/1
> 
> 
> 
> I got to say the mb6 gets with it. Oh my gosh that’s a nice sounding speaker. I literally could not believe how much sound came out of that 6.5. Very nice indeed plays nicely down to 100 crossed at 120 LR4 and 960 LR4


Nice install. Looks great Andy! 

And same here...everytime I see these ES drivers I want one even more. 

So you crossed them at [email protected] particular reason why? Better question is it install related or function of the driver? I look at these as more of a "hybrid" b/w PA and traditional speakers and was thinking 70/80hz would be good (the MB8 anyway).


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## Eric Stevens

CrimsonCountry said:


> Nice install. Looks great Andy!
> 
> And same here...everytime I see these ES drivers I want one even more.
> 
> So you crossed them at [email protected] particular reason why? Better question is it install related or function of the driver? I look at these as more of a "hybrid" b/w PA and traditional speakers and was thinking 70/80hz would be good (the MB8 anyway).


The MB6 works great with an 80 Hz high pass, and the MB8 is even better and can do well to as low as 60 Hz ut I suggest 70 to 80.


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## dcfis

"I look at these as more of a "hybrid" b/w PA and traditional speakers and was thinking 70/80hz would be good (the MB8 anyway)."

I think that is a great summary.

I cant bottom mb6 with 250watts at ~72hz


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## oabeieo

The only reason why I choose 120 is the owner of that car listens way way louder than I can apprxeciate and his taste in music is almost saturated in the midbass, maybe his hires player was adding too much gain and getting dangerously close to 0dbfs. When I played my iPhone I could get his system to go all the way up with no distortion at all. With his hires player it was as loud as my iPhone at about half volume. To each there own, 120 at full power it still was grabbing into the 80s with the amount of eq cuts that was needed at 140-300. When he comes back for more work I may try it lower. I wanted to keep power handling at its max for awhile unti he learns a little more. 

I’m my experience first time horn owners tend to want to have fun with the addded volume abilities for awhile than the sq desires come out eventually. 


His sub played decent to 120 , a little eq before crossing it worked good for his requirements, he definitely likes good sq and is into hires and stuff......

I think my gut was telling me something.


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## oabeieo

Might as well throw my car up in this thread , with a super rare for me new set of horns (I usually rocking my 25yr old set or the minis ) I thought I should take a pic right after install , I’m sure it won’t be long till I have either cut them to the point there unusable or have a plethora of screw holes in them


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## nyquistrate

oabeieo said:


> Might as well throw my car up in this thread , with a super rare for me new set of horns (I usually rocking my 25yr old set or the minis ) I thought I should take a pic right after install , I’m sure it won’t be long till I have either cut them to the point there unusable or have a plethora of screw holes in them


Which compression drivers are in your personal vehicle? It looks like you built out from the footwell vs cutting metal for the midbass?


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## oabeieo

nyquistrate said:


> Which compression drivers are in your personal vehicle? It looks like you built out from the footwell vs cutting metal for the midbass?


Normally I run compneo, I lent my set to a installer to try so I have the 2408h on right now. But I wil be running compneo as soon as I get them back 


Yeah , captain obvious talked me into kicks for stage width reasons , although with as much angle that was needed on them to image the way I wanted vs doing firing straight forward and more towards the middle I think it would have been about the same but with less pld. I definitely trust his advice, and it sounds excellent so I’m not mad at him (lol) 

Do I not sure unless I try, but for now this way sounds good. God good stage on both sides. A little less legroom but it’s all gravy.


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## nyquistrate

I need some advice on which horn to use. The fullsize will 'barely' fit. Please look at the attached pics and tell me if it is sticking out too far? The pic is with the small ferrite compression driver installed. Do I need to use mini horns instead?


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## dcfis

jelly fo shure


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## dcfis

fish said:


> oabeieo,
> 
> Did you try the ES MB6 high-passed @80hz?


Ive got mine running at 75 in a traditional 2 way. Love these speakers.


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## Eric Stevens

nyquistrate said:


> I need some advice on which horn to use. The fullsize will 'barely' fit. Please look at the attached pics and tell me if it is sticking out too far? The pic is with the small ferrite compression driver installed. Do I need to use mini horns instead?


That postioning for the full size is fine, you might be able to trim the mounting flange and get back a little further.

Its more of a dispersion pattern consideration for me, if it has a large console and there is a possibility of a early reflection off the console I tend towardsthe full size.

You could finish the install except the HLCD and then test both by wedging them in place with a piece of wood.


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## Jscoyne2

So this thread doesn't actually have any very useful pics like..idk..how the horns are actually mounted..

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## nyquistrate

Eric Stevens said:


> That postioning for the full size is fine, you might be able to trim the mounting flange and get back a little further.
> 
> Its more of a dispersion pattern consideration for me, if it has a large console and there is a possibility of a early reflection off the console I tend towardsthe full size.
> 
> You could finish the install except the HLCD and then test both by wedging them in place with a piece of wood.


Thanks, Eric. I always appreciate seeing manufacturer interaction. I trimmed the rear mounting flange until the actual driver hit the wheel well. Without cutting metal (and a little jute) I can't go any further back. I suppose that the glove box could be shimmed out, but that would leave a gap at the side of the dash. 

In one of the pics you can see the console covered in blue painter's tape. I don't either horn would hit the console. I'll add some pictures with the console. Do these additional pictures cause any concern for the mini horns? 
I think the console is fairly small compared to some other vehicles. Should I follow Matt's video on measuring the exit angle? 

I'm thinking that your recommendation for waiting until the end and trying both is the best answer. The seats are out for running wires and installing some damping material. I left them out for the horn install thinking it would be easier. I was hoping to finish the front end put the driver's area back together. I'm just getting anxious to drive my car again . . .


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## Jscoyne2

Guess im rewiring









Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## nyquistrate

dcfis said:


> jelly fo shure


Which install?



Jscoyne2 said:


> So this thread doesn't actually have any very useful pics like..idk..how the horns are actually mounted..
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


I have some mounting hardware failures that I could send. :laugh: Make sure you use strong enough hardware. I wasted time on some strapping that was way too thin. Eric used to send some pretty stout hanging material. I am trying radio backstrap and believe it will work for my application.


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## Lanson

Horns in a Subaru WRX!





nyquistrate said:


> Thanks, Eric. I always appreciate seeing manufacturer interaction. I trimmed the rear mounting flange until the actual driver hit the wheel well. Without cutting metal (and a little jute) I can't go any further back. I suppose that the glove box could be shimmed out, but that would leave a gap at the side of the dash.
> 
> In one of the pics you can see the console covered in blue painter's tape. I don't either horn would hit the console. I'll add some pictures with the console. Do these additional pictures cause any concern for the mini horns?
> I think the console is fairly small compared to some other vehicles. Should I follow Matt's video on measuring the exit angle?
> 
> I'm thinking that your recommendation for waiting until the end and trying both is the best answer. The seats are out for running wires and installing some damping material. I left them out for the horn install thinking it would be easier. I was hoping to finish the front end put the driver's area back together. I'm just getting anxious to drive my car again . . .


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## nyquistrate

Lanson said:


> Horns in a Subaru WRX!


Yeah, or at least I'm trying. The old CD2v2 drivers aren't fitting without serious mod.


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## nyquistrate

Jscoyne2 said:


> Guess im rewiring
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


It looks like you could just move that relay holder up or to the side. No problems in the passenger side with wire for my horn but I had to move a nest wires and the mounting 'cup' to mock up the kick panel driver (ES MB8).


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## Jscoyne2

nyquistrate said:


> It looks like you could just move that relay holder up or to the side. No problems in the passenger side with wire for my horn but I had to move a nest wires and the mounting 'cup' to mock up the kick panel driver (ES MB8).


Had to do some serious moving things around but its coming along

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## Lanson

nyquistrate said:


> Yeah, or at least I'm trying. The old CD2v2 drivers aren't fitting without serious mod.



I thought I was being bold with a 3-way setup in a WRX, but you are just re-writing the book, man! I take it you fit in your WRX better than I fit in mine. I clip the under-dash area with my shins and feet every once in a while as-is. With horns I would probably rip myself up while trying to heel-toe. lol.


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## nyquistrate

Lanson said:


> I thought I was being bold with a 3-way setup in a WRX, but you are just re-writing the book, man! I take it you fit in your WRX better than I fit in mine. I clip the under-dash area with my shins and feet every once in a while as-is. With horns I would probably rip myself up while trying to heel-toe. lol.


Lol, thanks. I can't heel-toe very well so I have up on it. My older son makes fun of me for driving a WRX like a granny.

I might find that the full bodies are just too big for the remaining space? The minis can tuck under the dash quite well.


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## oabeieo

Doing another horn build 

This one will take me a month to complete (working on it 5days a week 10hr days)

Bmw , full size , apl1012, lots of amps

These kicks I’m doing are insane , stay tuned .


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## Jscoyne2

Im struggling to get mine installed and you all put them in your friggin fender wells. 

Bruh, don't make me tear them out in a month and try that...


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## Jscoyne2

Patrick Bateman said:


> I don't want to get too far off topic again, so I'll keep this brief:
> 
> 1) The United States has a printing press
> 2) The US dollar is the most widely accepted currency in the world
> 3) *Interest rates are at all time lows*
> 
> As long as those three things are true, the size of our debt is virtually meaningless. Worst case scenario, the US Treasury could mint fifteen trillion dollars and pay the debt off overnight.
> 
> It's an insanely complex topic, but finance is probably the one thing I enjoy talking about more than horns!
> 
> The Treasury Has Already Minted Two Trillion Dollar Coins - Forbes


Remember these days...


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## Jscoyne2

lsm said:


> Here's my drivers side horn installed. I'm using trimmed Eric Stevens fullsize bodies mounted through the firewall.
> 
> Mounted/Mocked up
> 
> 
> Clutch Clearance
> 
> 
> Hole cut
> 
> 
> Full Size Body
> 
> 
> I'm planning to use Eric's Ultra motors and a pair of fiberglass straight fire bodies Matt Borgardt is making for me. I'm taking the car to a metal fab shop to have enclosures welded in place once I get everything dialed in correctly and sounding good.


He hasnt been on since 2017 so i cant ask him but JESUS!!!! How much is the lack of transition to the dash and the pedals causing reflection, going to affect the sound?


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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> He hasnt been on since 2017 so i cant ask him but JESUS!!!! How much is the lack of transition to the dash and the pedals causing reflection, going to affect the sound?


Well it will load up on firewall from looks of it , so it could actually be better 

If your flushing the horn in , you have 360deg of loading surface 
Where a dash is less 


But even if you didn’t have them flushed they would load to the size of mouth 

Full-size is 1k 

Minis is like 1.2k iirc 

It’ll work 


I normally don’t cross below the mouth frequency anyways , usually stay a tad above it , avoid and pattern flips or wierd diffraction from surfaces ajacent to mouth........unless it just works


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## Patrick Bateman

Jscoyne2 said:


> Remember these days...


I put my money where my mouth is and borrowed a million+ :O


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## Patrick Bateman

Jscoyne2 said:


> He hasnt been on since 2017 so i cant ask him but JESUS!!!! How much is the lack of transition to the dash and the pedals causing reflection, going to affect the sound?


The tricky thing about putting them really REALLY far back is that these asymmetric waveguides have *wide* vertical directivity.

That seems counter-intuitive, because they're so wide *horizontally*, but these waveguide actually have narrow horizontal directivity and wide vertical directivity.










JBL uses the same idea and flips it 90 degrees in their Synthesis 1400BG speaker.

If you have a car where you sit low, putting them really far back could really push the soundstage back. Mic Wallace did that in his BMW, and I'd kill to have a setup like that.

But in a vehicle like mine (which I hate) where the driver sits very high, it's semi-impossible to push these kinds of waveguides back, because you'll be sitting in the "shadow" of the dash.

I came pretty close to pulling the trigger on a BMW 5 Series last week, and a big part of the reason is that it's just really hard to have speakers under the dash in a CUV. The damn seat is too high. I've looked into aftermarket seats or seat extenders, to no avail.

The other solution would be to push the waveguides way back and move them DOWN. 

And, obviously, you'd want to agressively treat the surface under the dash, because the waveguide is going to illuminate it due it it's wide vertical directivity.


Why doesn't anyone run Image Dynamics HLCDs vertically?


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## oabeieo

Went and saw my buddy Aaron in Denver to get my compneo motors back I lent him, he has the pro drivers, so I gave him the BMS 4552nd to try out , I’ll give him back the compneos after I replace this set I need them for another install. 

Had to take more pics of his install, I love his samurai. It’s such a cool build, his system sounds great. Awesome installer also. 

Full-size horns with Beyma 8G40-4 midbass and a crazy t line with a sundown 6.5”sub 
That’s tiny and sounds as loud as a good 10”. I don’t know why I love his truck so much.











where can i find e85 gas


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## Jscoyne2

The horns are held there by threaded rivets in the metal. I had to relocate the ebrake mechanism. Ill end up putting weathertech mats over the whole floor and probably fabbing up some kind of grill.

Mattkim made me those acrylic baffles with threaded screw holes so thanks for that buddy.

Clear stuff is 1 layer of fiberglass cloth. Stays pliable but is stiff. Gives me a super great transition to dash.

Tape is there temporarily in case i need to pull the speakers. They are flush mount and i have no idea how id get them out without tape.

























































































































Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Oh dang ^^


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## Patrick Bateman

is that a wookie?


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## Jscoyne2

Patrick Bateman said:


> is that a wookie?


Maybe









Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## Patrick Bateman

whoah!


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## saltyone

WTF! Holy Crap! That’s the coolest thing I’ve ever seen! I’m redoing my door panels tomorrow!!! LOL. That’s awesome man.


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## Jscoyne2

They are .35 cuft sealed pods for the midrange. 

They also oscillate in the air at 142db at 28hz. 

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## Jscoyne2

Ill make grills eventually
















Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

saltyone said:


> WTF! Holy Crap! That’s the coolest thing I’ve ever seen! I’m redoing my door panels tomorrow!!! LOL. That’s awesome man.



I think he just stopped the neighbors dog from barking , than hid the evidence.lol

Shaggin wagon


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## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> I think he just stopped the neighbors dog from barking , than hid the evidence.lol
> 
> 
> 
> Shaggin wagon


Bruh. ****kkk that dog 

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> I think he just stopped the neighbors dog from barking , than hid the evidence.lol
> 
> 
> 
> Shaggin wagon


Do you have any tips for using Dirac specifically with horns?

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Do you have any tips for using Dirac specifically with horns?
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk



Use a y cord on rca and make both left and right Dirac sweeps for horns go to only the left horn. 

After Dirac put back to normal and both will have the same correction applied 

Than you can ajust the timing individually. 

But that’s just my car. The bmw I just did Dirac worked excellent on the normal way. He had a much bigger PLD , mine is almost none (4”) 

My car is super skinny. It’s half as wide as his car. 

But something to try. Lmk how it goes


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## oabeieo

The wife’s van , totally childproof, 

80prs 
8x12DL 
Veritas horns with new b&c polymide de550nd 
3 punch 200ix 
6g40nd front doors 
Polk 12 (that I found in the trash as work and re purposed it) 

For a low low dash this thing images very high. 
And of course it never fails the throw together for the grocery getter has better imaging than my car.. doh !


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## FattyBoomBoom

I like to see this stuff here. A real man. I am finishing up accumulating the necessary installation gear to upgrade my van’s stereo. I only have 2 more things to purchase and I bet this van will sound better than any other Sienna in the Sacramento area. Yes it’s a formal challenge. I challenge thee... I just need 3 months to install/tune ?


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## Blu

oabeieo said:


> The wife’s van , totally childproof,
> 
> 80prs
> 8x12DL
> Veritas horns with new b&c polymide de550nd
> 3 punch 200ix
> 6g40nd front doors
> Polk 12 (that I found in the trash as work and re purposed it)
> 
> For a low low dash this thing images very high.
> And of course it never fails the throw together for the grocery getter has better imaging than my car.. doh !


Hey Andy,

Did the new drivers get rid of the nastiness that you originally experienced with the Veritas resin body horns? 
IIRC you were less than impressed with the initial experience.
Wondering what your thoughts are now?


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## oabeieo

Blu said:


> Hey Andy,
> 
> Did the new drivers get rid of the nastiness that you originally experienced with the Veritas resin body horns?
> IIRC you were less than impressed with the initial experience.
> Wondering what your thoughts are now?


 Down the throat there’s a rubber ball that actually helped quite a bit it’s a really stiff rubber ball that fits perfectly I had to cram it in there 

They sound pretty good now definitely different than they did on the bench, there is a plastic like ringing in the lower end that definitely adds to everything but it’s not that horrible 

I like the dispersion on them I think if it was made out of something different it would actually be pretty good 

I don’t think it would ever sound as good as Eric’s but different definitely yes but yeah I like them they’re cool. I think I like them more that it’s old-school that I always used to look at in magazines when I was younger and never able to get some will see how long they last in the van


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