# Asphalt VS Butyl



## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

I was just reading a thread about the B-stock that Rick from Rammatt was selling and Rudeboy warned of the possibility of it being asphalt based.

How do you distinguish between asphalt material or butyl for sure? I have original DynaMAt which is obviously asphalt.

I have a no name brand aluminum backed material I bought 5 years ago for $115 shipped per 135 SQ FT.

I stuck a 2" x 2" piece on the side of my screw organizer, hit it with a heat gun and was left with a runny mess after 15 seconds.

There hardly no odor and it's VERY rubbery. 

It does have the brown stain on the back of the paper backing which is indicitive of asphalt.

I put a piece in the freezer and it didn't get brittle after 6 hours.

I'm thinking it's Brown Bread from before they named it BB. or maybe FAt MAt.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Heres some pics:

http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa89/GlasSman702/MIsc CarAudio/?action=view&current=DSC03730.jpg


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Couple of easy tests. Drop a square inch or so in an oz or two of mineral spirits and wait an hour. Asphalt turns the liquid brown, butyl turns it back or doesn't change the liquids color at all.

Easier test - light a piece on fire. Butyl will ignite in a few seconds in the flame of a Bic type lighter and will continue to burn when the flame is removed. Asphalt is much harder to ignite.

That picture looks like asphalt to me.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Rudeboy said:


> Couple of easy tests. Drop a square inch or so in an oz or two of mineral spirits and wait an hour. Asphalt turns the liquid brown, butyl turns it back or doesn't change the liquids color at all.
> 
> Easier test - light a piece on fire. Butyl will ignite in a few seconds in the flame of a Bic type lighter and will continue to burn when the flame is removed. Asphalt is much harder to ignite.
> 
> That picture looks like asphalt to me.


Ok thanks. I'll light some up right now.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Ok it lit on fire very easily.

It stayed lit for a good amount of time before it started reaching my fingers.

Could it possibly be a low grade butyl?


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

Rudeboy said:


> Easier test - light a piece on fire. Butyl will ignite in a few seconds in the flame of a Bic type lighter and will continue to burn when the flame is removed. Asphalt is much harder to ignite.


That seems backwards to me.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

It's turning brown in the solvent after 5 minutes.

I guess we know what that means.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

GlasSman said:


> Ok it lit on fire very easily.
> 
> It stayed lit for a good amount of time before it started reaching my fingers.
> 
> Could it possibly be a low grade butyl?


This is strange. You're the second person who's gotten a sustainable flame from asphalt yet it's been a 100% reliable test for me. Did you remove the release paper first?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Daishi said:


> That seems backwards to me.


Nope, butyl burns more aggressively than asphalt.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Rudeboy said:


> This is strange. You're the second person who's gotten a sustainable flame from asphalt yet it's been a 100% reliable test for me. Did you remove the release paper first?


Yes...paper was removed on section that was burning. I only left enough for me to hold onto.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Heres a few pics. 

The backing never burned as I dropped it before it reached that point.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Damned if I know - I'll have to play around with it some more. In my experience asphalt liquefies in the flame and starts to run. Butyl stays put and ignites. That's a lot more flame than I'm accustomed to, so I suspect that once asphalt ignites it goes big time. Butyl definitely makes a smaller, steady flame that drips flaming bits (should have warned you about that) as it goes.

The solvent turning brown is a pretty sure sign. That first photo you posted is very characteristic of asphalt the melted parts are brown and I've only seen that with asphalt. If you want a more reliable test, bake some at 180°F - 190░F for 30 minutes or so. Asphalt will melt at that temperature pretty reliably. Even low grade butyl should withstand 220°F.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

I was thinking of doing the baking test but I didn't want to risk smelling up the house this late at night. 

This stuff shows characteristics of butyl AND asphalt from your info.

It flamed VERY quickly and produced a rather large flame at that. 

After 90 minutes the solvent is not much more brown than is was after 5 minutes.


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## entrophy (Apr 22, 2008)

Hmm, I just bought some of the B-grade stock from Rick; but from the tests you showed, will this have any effect on the efficiency of sound dampening versus their regular raammat ?


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Rudeboy...I was just on your site. 

This might fall under Butyl with Asphalt filler since it burns so quickly but has a low odor.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

entrophy said:


> Hmm, I just bought some of the B-grade stock from Rick; but from the tests you showed, will this have any effect on the efficiency of sound dampening versus their regular raammat ?


That depends on whether it is asphalt or butyl. Butyl has a material property called viscoelasticity. That means that when it is deformed, it slowly rebounds to its original position. It isn't fully elastic and it isn't fully liquid. It is this deformation/rebound cycle through which some vibration is converted to minute quantities of heat. Asphalt doesn't share this property, so all you are doing is making the panel heavier. You may also get some stiffening and some locking together of adjacent panels, but you are also losing one of the fundamental mechanisms of vibration damping along with durability and reliability.

This all depends on whether or not the adhesive is asphalt or butyl. I have no idea in this case and am only speculating based on the melting point of asphalt.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

GlasSman said:


> Rudeboy...I was just on your site.
> 
> This might fall under Butyl with Asphalt filler since it burns so quickly but has a low odor.


It may be or there may be no such thing - I'm not convinced that there is anymore. I believe that statement came from Rick at RAAM and it later turned out to have been a mistake by his manufacturer and that there really wasn't any asphalt in there at all. In other cases, the formulation has been presented as a way to confuse the issue by less scrupulous companies. It's beyond my capabilities to directly verify the actual composition of these things, so I am limited to examining secondary characteristics and going from there. Whatever anybody tells you, putting a product in a car that melts at temperatures below 200°F is not a good idea.

I'll burn some samples today and see what happens


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Daishi said:


> That seems backwards to me.


Turns out it is sort of backwards. Asphalt is quite a bit harder to ignite, but once it gets going, it is a pretty nasty fire. This test turns out to be worthless if you haven't lit dozens of samples. Asphalt melts very quickly when you put a flame to it. I've always quit at that point because I knew it was asphalt. Hold it in the flame for a while longer and it eventually ignites. If you pull it out of the flame at that point it will extinguish it self. If you keep the flame on it a while longer you get a pretty nasty, self sustaining fire exactly like that in GlasSman's photos. 

Butyl ignites much sooner and doesn't liquefy first. It burns with a lower flame until it is all consumed.

In any case, this test does not work unless you have both materials at hand or have experience with both. Sorry for the bad advice. The mineral spirits test has never failed me. The baking test is more important because it matters less what the exact composition of the adhesive is. If it behaves like asphalt - melting below ~ 200°F, you don't want it in your car. And yeah, it will stink your house up big time with probably toxic fumes


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

I've seen the black, oily goo Don's talking about in my hatch and doors. This is where I put asphalt back in the day. I've seen the brown residue left over on the surface from asphalt as well. It looks like tar reside to me. I've never seen this from any butyl product. 

Just take some of it and peel it up in your fingers and roll it around a little. Does it make a nice little round, rubber ball with clean fingers? Or does it leave your fingers brown and gooey? 

At any rate, asphalt is such a mistake. I find it hilarious when guys are so damn adamant that it works and that it mass-loads when it's not massive at all.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

FoxPro5 said:


> I've seen the black, oily goo Don's talking about in my hatch and doors. This is where I put asphalt back in the day. I've seen the brown residue left over on the surface from asphalt as well. It looks like tar reside to me. I've never seen this from any butyl product.
> 
> Just take some of it and peel it up in your fingers and roll it around a little. Does it make a nice little round, rubber ball with clean fingers? Or does it leave your fingers brown and gooey?


Some asphalt formulations will ball up and not leave any residue on your fingers, but the ball won't be resilient. Unfortunately, that's another characteristic that a little tough to judge unless you can compare both. Many things become obvious once you've handled a variety of these products, but monst people will never get to do that.



FoxPro5 said:


> At any rate, asphalt is such a mistake. I find it hilarious when guys are so damn adamant that it works and that it mass-loads when it's not massive at all.


This has turned around quite a bit. I used to get into debates about this with Sean of ROE and Jacob of Sundown. Both advocated asphalt. Jacob had an elaborate installation procedure he believed made asphalt reliable. Both have since had their asphalt projects fail. It's been very helpful to have two respected members of the 12V community, neither with any association with sound deadening, change positions on the topic.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Rudeboy said:


> This has turned around quite a bit. I used to get into debates about this with Sean of ROE and Jacob of Sundown. Both advocated asphalt. Jacob had an elaborate installation procedure he believed made asphalt reliable. Both have since had their asphalt projects fail. It's been very helpful to have two respected members of the 12V community, neither with any association with sound deadening, change positions on the topic.


I've seen the Soundown guy post a few times on it. The response is usually....*cricket*.....*cricket*....

I've even went as far as posting pics of what asphalt based "deadener" looks like when it fails. It's an ugly scene.

I'm firmly convinced that the *cheap ass deadening* mentality cannot be broken. Thus, those in the know must have that canned "told ya so!" ready to go. But, that really doesn't do any good, usually.

DIYMA needs a 3rd party to do an extensive write-up on this. I can't do it because people will think it _mass-loads_ my pocket.  Maybe the riddler (abmolech) could? No wait, bad idea...too much lateral thinking involved.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

FoxPro5 said:


> I've seen the black, oily goo Don's talking about in my hatch and doors. This is where I put asphalt back in the day. I've seen the brown residue left over on the surface from asphalt as well. It looks like tar reside to me. I've never seen this from any butyl product.
> 
> Just take some of it and peel it up in your fingers and roll it around a little. Does it make a nice little round, rubber ball with clean fingers? Or does it leave your fingers brown and gooey?
> 
> At any rate, asphalt is such a mistake. I find it hilarious when guys are so damn adamant that it works and that it mass-loads when it's not massive at all.


This stuff leaves no amount of brown residue on fingers when playing with it at room temp. It leaves a slight brown residue on the backing paper though.

after tearing piece apart I only have a very little black residue on my fingers. 

It drips and fails around 200 degrees...maybe a little higher since I have no way of measuring the heated up piece except for "OUCH" test.


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## entrophy (Apr 22, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> That depends on whether it is asphalt or butyl. Butyl has a material property called viscoelasticity. That means that when it is deformed, it slowly rebounds to its original position. It isn't fully elastic and it isn't fully liquid. It is this deformation/rebound cycle through which some vibration is converted to minute quantities of heat. Asphalt doesn't share this property, so all you are doing is making the panel heavier. You may also get some stiffening and some locking together of adjacent panels, but you are also losing one of the fundamental mechanisms of vibration damping along with durability and reliability.
> 
> This all depends on whether or not the adhesive is asphalt or butyl. I have no idea in this case and am only speculating based on the melting point of asphalt.


But according to the Ad on ebay, "However, *the sound deadening properties are identical to regular production RAAMmat BXT*. Buyers are urged to use this product as recommended, floors only, neither I, nor RAAMaudio Inc will accept responsibility for use in other locations in a vehicle".

So if the properties are different than whats stated than this could cause a lot of issues with buyers.
ebay listing: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...STRK:MEWN:IT&viewitem=&item=260234945752&rd=1


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

entrophy said:


> But according to the Ad on ebay, "However, *the sound deadening properties are identical to regular production RAAMmat BXT*. Buyers are urged to use this product as recommended, floors only, neither I, nor RAAMaudio Inc will accept responsibility for use in other locations in a vehicle".
> 
> So if the properties are different than whats stated than this could cause a lot of issues with buyers.
> ebay listing: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...STRK:MEWN:IT&viewitem=&item=260234945752&rd=1


I don't know what to tell you. I don't know if the eBay seller has Rick's express approval to describe the product as he has in addition to his express permission to sell it. I am only speculating, but to me 175°F says asphalt. Floor only says possible adhesion problems and that says asphalt.

It isn't possible for this to be the same formulation as regular RAAMmat since I've tested that to be stable at well over 200°F. If it isn't the same formulation, how can it be assumed to have the same material properties. If it is asphalt, I can guarantee that it doesn't have the same material properties.

While it is difficult to get a vehicle's floor to 175°F, unless your getting heat from the engine, transmission or exhaust, it is quite easy to get the doors, side panels, roof, lid of the trunk, etc. there. If the sun hits it, it can get way hotter than the air inside the vehicle's passenger compartment. That's been one of the enduring fallacies of this debate - "My car will never see those temps so it doesn't matter". This is based on temperatures recorded in the air inside, not in the panels where sound deadener lives. I've measured temps over 180°F in the trim panels of my light silver car, in the sun, during the summer.

I can't answer the fundamental question here - is this asphalt or not? You'll have to go to the source for that. I wouldn't put asphalt in a car and have argued against anybody else doing it.


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## entrophy (Apr 22, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> I don't know what to tell you. I don't know if the eBay seller has Rick's express approval to describe the product as he has in addition to his express permission to sell it. I am only speculating, but to me 175°F says asphalt. Floor only says possible adhesion problems and that says asphalt.


Rick emailed me saying: that is my son taking care of the 
B stock, part of growing the business for him to have more a part of it

I am going to email him (the ebay seller) inquiring about this, I only planned on using the B-stock in my trunk, away from light and exposure to engine heat. I drive a white lancer and am in S. Cal so we aren't exposed to high temps like in LA and above. 
Perhaps when I receive my Bstock i'll run some tests and compare it to Secondskin's DDP.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

entrophy said:


> But according to the Ad on ebay, "However, *the sound deadening properties are identical to regular production RAAMmat BXT*. Buyers are urged to use this product as recommended, floors only, neither I, nor RAAMaudio Inc will accept responsibility for use in other locations in a vehicle".
> 
> So if the properties are different than whats stated than this could cause a lot of issues with buyers.
> ebay listing: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...STRK:MEWN:IT&viewitem=&item=260234945752&rd=1





entrophy said:


> Rick emailed me saying: that is my son taking care of the
> B stock, part of growing the business for him to have more a part of it
> 
> I am going to email him (the ebay seller) inquiring about this, I only planned on using the B-stock in my trunk, away from light and exposure to engine heat. I drive a white lancer and am in S. Cal so we aren't exposed to high temps like in LA and above.
> Perhaps when I receive my Bstock i'll run some tests and compare it to Secondskin's DDP.


Then I guess he approves. What's DDP - Damplifier Double Penetration?


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## entrophy (Apr 22, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> Then I guess he approves. What's DDP - Damplifier Double Penetration?


LOL, I'm sorry, I just meant Damplifier Pro =P


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Copied from my post on another thread.

"I wish I had seen this sooner, to busy taking care of my fellow enthusiast customers as we are growing just to fast!

This is not asphalt based, period. Does it have any asphalt in it? YES

Does that make is asphalt based? NO

Why? At what point do you determine the percentage of an ingredient in a product to call the product based on that ingredient or an additive? It would have to be very substantial to be considered a base ingredient, maybe one of our chemical engineers here can speak up on this issue

We used to use a very small percentage of a super premium grade of asphalt, if you understand the huge differences in grades of crud oil you will understand this, as a binding agent and have shipped tens of thousands of rolls all over the world with not one single issue with it ever reported.

The fine mess we are involved in the Middle East ended our supply of that ingredient, a second source was located and a batch was made with it, it did not pass our testing and I pulled it off the market and sent it back to the warehouse.

We tested many formulas, over a dozen during the following two months, a period we did not ship any products during, and finally found the best solution we could. The current version we sell has zero asphalt in it but I actually prefer our previous version that had the very small amount of super premium asphalt and if the supply ever comes back will probably switch back to it.

I hope this clears up a bit of the hyperventilating going on here.

Armchair engineers are good to have around but they do not always have all the answers, neither does the real engineer at times either, we are all human and subject to error, emotions, misinterpretations, bias, etc, just the way we are.

Sincerely,
Rick"


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## entrophy (Apr 22, 2008)

Thanks for helping clear this matter up.


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Most welcome

I had very serious apprehension to even selling this, it sat at my manf for nearly a year, they bugged me numerous times to take it off their hands as it was useless to them. If I wanted to sell sub par products I would have them made and make a much larger profit margin than I do on our regular product. I did not need more business, plenty busy already, my son needed more to do, I negotiated a price low enough to make it worth his time and also have the option to cancel the sale and ship it all back if to much headache, nearly there already! 

If there is much more of an issue on this it may just happen.

I am also open to serious recommendations here as well, if anybody thinks I should not sell it, change how it is being handled, etc, let me know and I will give it my sincerest consideration.

Thanks,
Rick


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

My apologies to Ant, I really do not like discussing anything about my business on this site but felt I had to clear up some misunderstandings.

Sincerely,
Rick


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## ANT (Oct 15, 2005)

No big deal rick.
As long as you are not on the board spamming the hell out of your products like a few others have, you are fine.

ANT


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Thanks buddy, really appreciate it. Now I am just trying to make up for a bad decision to sell the B stock mat. I have been working insane hours and trying to build a race car so my life is not just work, worn out, made a bad call, got talked into selling it and only did it for my son to help him make more money.

I very highly respect that you own this site and I never want to do anything I should not do here, a couple of things were a bit iffy for me to post, if I ever go over the line just let me know, delete, kick my butt, whatever you have to do.

No idea how many come to you but I refer people to you at least once a week, sometimes more

Thanks, have a great rest of the weekend!
Rick


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