# MYTH: Old school gear IS the best!



## ChrisB

Let's face it, I've seen it rehashed on the forums many times over where someone touts their old school setup as one of the best sounding ever. Whether it was the CD player, subwoofers, components, amplifiers, crossovers, or equalizers; you'd swear that there has not been any innovation since the late 80s. 

So I am going to say it is a MYTH that old school gear was the best ever made and there isn't anything on the current market that can compete with the sound quality of it. Ready, set, discuss...


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## tnbubba

I agree


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## sleepingciv

I personally like older stuff amps and subs for sure


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## finbar

I prefer new gear.
Low Le subs, 5V RCA output head units, high quality low cost/watt amps, warranty....... the list goes on.
All that ongoing improvement is just too good to beat.


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## tnbubba

wait I agree to disagree..
look how crappy HU's are getting except some overpriced high dollar crap..

features not sound/.. and any amp that use crappy ass TL07X or Ne553X op amps.. should not be called an amp..
most of the older amps do sound better..
cd's sound better than tapes..OMG remember those ..what about you old skool 8 -track guys..

hmm head units got somewhat better sounding but when compared to discrete circuit concords n such an old units really they don't "sound" any better..

about the only thing that has gotten better is features and S/N ratio...

ok I'm leaving out all the high end stuff today most people can't afford.
back yonder in the old days it was afforadable still.

wait did I say denon, nak, mac.. oh that's old skool too isn't?

Aobut the only thing I';d say that has drastically improved is speaker driver!!

cant we just call it a draw and have a beer?

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than Frontal labotomy!!


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## 87FoRunner

Don't forget the higher efficiency of newer amps.


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## Hillbilly SQ

imjustjason said:


> I don't like any of it. New or old.


Can I have some of it then?:laugh::surprised:

In my opinion what's killing the quality of car audio are what customers really care about. Let's face it, people want it cheap, flashy, and full of features they'll probably never use. I just hope I can find a reasonable source of active processing when my 880 takes a dump because I WILL NOT buy one that requires a laptop to tune. Sure once I get it dailed in I won't touch the tuning except teh sub level for months or years at a time but it's solely out of my own stubborness and demand for convenience without having to buy something just to be able to tune the sunavabitch.


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## jimmy2345

It's not a case of old vs. new. It's a case of how much time and effort a company wants to put in to building an amp that really sounds good. This is something that most all companies did throughout the 90's and not so much anymore. That is why it always seems like an old vs. new debate.


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## Vermithrax

ChrisB said:


> Let's face it, I've seen it rehashed on the forums many times over where someone touts their old school setup as one of the best sounding ever. Whether it was the CD player, subwoofers, components, amplifiers, crossovers, or equalizers; you'd swear that there has not been any innovation since the late 80s.
> 
> So I am going to say it is a MYTH that old school gear was the best ever made and there isn't anything on the current market that can compete with the sound quality of it. Ready, set, discuss...


Wait, who are you and what did you do with the "It's a new year..." ChrisB?


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## ChrisB

Vermithrax said:


> Wait, who are you and what did you do with the "It's a new year..." ChrisB?


Besides picking on jimmy2345 every now and again, I believe I have been behaving. 

Aside to Jimmy: It's not personal jimmy, it is just that old habits are hard to break!:laugh:


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## FAUEE

This is very true. You get a lot more power, quality, and reliability out of amps these days, and they're smaller and use less power to boot. Plus they don't randomly catch on fire as often, so that's a plus.

A lot of people like to clamor over old school gear because its sort of a sign of seniority. If you've had an amp from the 90s since it was new, that means you've been doing this that long and so that means you can feel like you know that much more than everyone else.


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## Vermithrax

Concerning old gear:
A lot of old gear was really great, some so-so, some complete crap. Some really expensive, some affordable, some really cheap. Some guys thought brand X was the best and nothing else was even close, some didn't care what it was as long as it made noise. Some brands were almost household names, some barely known.

Concerning new gear:
Similar to above.

Concerning which is better IMO:
Yes.

Concerning what I really likely know about it:


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## jimmy2345

FAUEE said:


> This is very true. You get a lot more power, quality, and reliability out of amps these days, and they're smaller and use less power to boot. Plus they don't randomly catch on fire as often, so that's a plus.
> 
> A lot of people like to clamor over old school gear because its sort of a sign of seniority. If you've had an amp from the 90s since it was new, that means you've been doing this that long and so that means you can feel like you know that much more than everyone else.


Or maybe you just contradicted yourself. First you state the reliability of newer amps is better which I am not sure how that can be backed up because they are new. Second, you make mention of an old school guy who has had an amp for 20+ years and still uses it which tells me his amp is more than reliable. We'll have to wait 20 years to see how many of todays current amps are still running.

More quality today? That's funny.


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## ChrisB

When it comes to amplifiers, there are several old school brands that purposely overbuilt them to run at a fraction of what the FETS were capable of. I believe this purposeful overbuilding has contributed to their longevity and that is why they are still around.

When it comes to new amplifiers, I can't say I have seen very many that are overbuilt. In fact, many of the newer brands that I have tried rarely seemed to make it past the warranty period, assuming they made it through the warranty period without being problematic at all. Those problematic brands were DEI's Orion and Memphis Car Audio amplifiers. To date, I will NOT even consider purchasing either brand!

Now with all that typed, does longevity alone necessarily make something better?


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## Vermithrax

ChrisB said:


> Now with all that typed, does longevity alone necessarily make something better?


My wife says it does. :laugh:


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## coffee_junkee

Vermithrax said:


> My wife says it does. :laugh:


Quoted for truth!


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## CBRworm

The same is true in vintage home audio. If it has lasted this long it was probably pretty well built. The crap died 20 years ago.

Sound quality from amps does not seem to have improved much over time.


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## Angrywhopper

I agree that almost all the new stuff is better than the old stuff.

The only place I disagree with is the headunit section. Car stereo's (mostly single din) have gotten so cheap and crappy compared to before. Manufacturers have been on a race to zero over the past couple of years. It's all about hooking up a usb for ipod nowadays. The stereo's themselfs feel cheap (Other than the $1500 Pioneer or McIntosh mx406).


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## PaulD

.. but cheap is what the consumer here in the US wants, we live in the cheap generation where all too many people feel everything should be free (or close to it). Ever wonder why ipod's are so popular ? How many of those people do you really thing paid for their music ? There are plenty of highend headunits in places like Japan, we don't get them here because they won't sell.


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## FAUEE

PaulD said:


> .. but cheap is what the consumer here in the US wants, we live in the cheap generation where all too many people feel everything should be free (or close to it). Ever wonder why ipod's are so popular ? How many of those people do you really thing paid for their music ? There are plenty of highend headunits in places like Japan, we don't get them here because they won't sell.


I think there's something to be said for the greed of the record industry and artists themselves... but that's another topic entirely.

In Japan, car tuning is a much more cultural thing, property is very expensive there and so most people don't own a home, and live in a very small apartment/condo. So they express themselves and spend more disposable income on their cars. Audio, performance, visuals, everything.

Americans aren't into all that on average. While in colleges and such you'll find them, the vast majority of people don't care. Most people replace their CD player when it breaks, or they replace it with the thought that any cheap aftermarket will be better than factory. People want the most features for the least money. Higher end units? Hah. How many of the SQ decks do you think they sell in a year? Not very many. The most popular indashes are the cheapest ones, people want the features they're specifically looking for at the lowest price, which typically is screen, nav, and bt, or just 1 or 2 of the 3. Most people that would come in looking at indashes or nav systems were just looking for a way to get it cheaper than getting it from the factory. 

I don't think that aspect of the industry will change. With replacing the radio in a car becoming more expensive, ugly, a hassle, and less beneficial... I just don't think you're going to see a resurgence in this industry. Look at how many cars are hideously disfigured with a replacement radio now, or can't even be replaced at all.


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## Angrywhopper

FAUEE said:


> I think there's something to be said for the greed of the record industry and artists themselves... but that's another topic entirely.
> 
> In Japan, car tuning is a much more cultural thing, property is very expensive there and so most people don't own a home, and live in a very small apartment/condo. So they express themselves and spend more disposable income on their cars. Audio, performance, visuals, everything.
> 
> Americans aren't into all that on average. While in colleges and such you'll find them, the vast majority of people don't care. Most people replace their CD player when it breaks, or they replace it with the thought that any cheap aftermarket will be better than factory. People want the most features for the least money. Higher end units? Hah. How many of the SQ decks do you think they sell in a year? Not very many. The most popular indashes are the cheapest ones, people want the features they're specifically looking for at the lowest price, which typically is screen, nav, and bt, or just 1 or 2 of the 3. Most people that would come in looking at indashes or nav systems were just looking for a way to get it cheaper than getting it from the factory.
> 
> I don't think that aspect of the industry will change. With replacing the radio in a car becoming more expensive, ugly, a hassle, and less beneficial... I just don't think you're going to see a resurgence in this industry. Look at how many cars are hideously disfigured with a replacement radio now, or can't even be replaced at all.


I agree with everything you said!


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## ChrisB

FAUEE said:


> I just don't think you're going to see a resurgence in this industry. Look at how many cars are hideously disfigured with a replacement radio now, or can't even be replaced at all.



Exactly. Even something like a low cost 2011 Hyundai Sonata with the premium sound system would be a royal pain to replace the deck with all the other factory functions running through it. Just how many of those aftermarket processors will take Hyundai's SPDIF connector and turn it into something that those amplifiers with their stone age RCA connections can use?

Case and point. My wife liked the sound system in her 2011 Genesis Coupe but it didn't have enough bass for her. One LOC, sub, box, and amplifier was all it took to make her happy.


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## JayinMI

Pretty typical on the GC. The new dash kits aren't _horribly disfiguring_ but I probably wouldn't leave it alone. I kept my factory radio since it already did everything I wanted.

Jay


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## jrs1006

PaulD said:


> .. but cheap is what the consumer here in the US wants, we live in the cheap generation where all too many people feel everything should be free (or close to it). Ever wonder why ipod's are so popular ? How many of those people do you really thing paid for their music ? There are plenty of highend headunits in places like Japan, we don't get them here because they won't sell.


This is so true. No matter what anyone says that it sounds just like a cd. it does not. Anytime you compress music you are essentailly taking data out. I mean a dual 24 bit unit will sound worlds apart from a Ipod hooked up via usb or ipod cable. 

The truth is this......the ipod has killed high end radio. Before it was about getting the richness of the sound and enjoying that near life like experience. Today its about convenience ie ipod, nav, bluetooth. The quality and the shear joy of hearing something as it was meant to be heard has lost value. Keep in mind that quality is what has been lost not quantity (db). Louder does not mean better guys. 

We old timers who have been at this for years, heck decades in some cases wanted to purest sound. Not the loudest or the most boom. Sure it was nice to have when you needed it or wanted it but that was not the main driver. I own a ipod like thousands of others but I mainly use it like a walkman when its not ok to have a blaring stereo going. and even so I have purchased in excess of 50 headphones searching for the perfect soud. Or at least one I thought was good eneough for me. Still have yet to find it.

If we want SQ we need new technologies, like SACD or what ever happened to DVD audio. we need formats to store more data not less and yes make it cheaper. 

We can go on and on about what is better old school vs new school and we may never really find an answer. But the true answer is change the way we get music. A good example is getting a really nice HD 1080p TV and playing a DiVX movie. garbage in garbage out guys.


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## 6APPEAL

I talked to most of the car audio vendors at CES. They all said the same thing, SQ is a nich market without enough profit margin and sales to make the investment. So we are left with the few major vendors that have SQ(-ish?) equipment and the small/nich market high-end SQ vendors are hanging on the best they can. The drive to ZERO by the majority of the buyers and marketing is killing everything, not just car audio. So we get left with cheap crap or uber-expensive good stuff.

Can't forget about the true-ism stated above: Garbage in Garbage out!


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## sqshoestring

jrs1006 said:


> This is so true. No matter what anyone says that it sounds just like a cd. it does not. Anytime you compress music you are essentailly taking data out. I mean a dual 24 bit unit will sound worlds apart from a Ipod hooked up via usb or ipod cable.
> 
> The truth is this......the ipod has killed high end radio. Before it was about getting the richness of the sound and enjoying that near life like experience. Today its about convenience ie ipod, nav, bluetooth. The quality and the shear joy of hearing something as it was meant to be heard has lost value. Keep in mind that quality is what has been lost not quantity (db). Louder does not mean better guys.
> 
> We old timers who have been at this for years, heck decades in some cases wanted to purest sound. Not the loudest or the most boom. Sure it was nice to have when you needed it or wanted it but that was not the main driver. I own a ipod like thousands of others but I mainly use it like a walkman when its not ok to have a blaring stereo going. and even so I have purchased in excess of 50 headphones searching for the perfect soud. Or at least one I thought was good eneough for me. Still have yet to find it.
> 
> If we want SQ we need new technologies, like SACD or what ever happened to DVD audio. we need formats to store more data not less and yes make it cheaper.
> 
> We can go on and on about what is better old school vs new school and we may never really find an answer. But the true answer is change the way we get music. A good example is getting a really nice HD 1080p TV and playing a DiVX movie. garbage in garbage out guys.


Well said, everything has become a toaster....just make the cheapest $7 unit you can. Far as the storage, it seems like memory is getting so large one can go that way with lossless now. I agree I hated CDs when they came out, the things get scratched and are difficult to handle, difficult to get in out that $.02 pos case they have used every day since the start. Why not something like a zip disk, or at least the form factor. USB is not bad though.

Back in the day you had to have SQ or you could not turn it up loud, it sounded like crap. I made countless metal tapes in my early days lol, because they would get it on better than bought tapes. I could hook up an EQ in the car and sure enough could not go as loud because it degraded quality....my ears said no way.

Far as old equipment being better, certainly a lot of good or better brand stuff was built much better than the average today. The amps for one have lasted and most of todays cheap China stuff will not. I laugh at the posts on this forum of "My new (insert expensive brand) took a crap wtf" Not that old school was perfect, but how many LP and RF punch amps you think took a crap when new...they didn't. They were expensive, I calculated it a couple years ago with inflation a new LP 2002 2x200rms amp would be $700. I think some old amps do sound better on highs/mids. Is this because they have internal EQ? Is it how they clip nicer? I think maybe both, and I'll bet the SNR/THD is similar if not better in the new amp but both are under levels the ear can hear. I feel that way only about certain amps though, there were some amps that sucked in the day and some of them people think are good today...lol. There were some other amps that worked ok, like an 80s pyramid I had and not the ppi built one. It was not great, but ran subs pretty well I was amazed because even back then they were a cheap brand. What people don't realize about today's amps is that THD and price are not related, a cheap amp can sound good. The knobs might stop working soon, it may be overrated, it may have nasty reliability, may have little warranty/service, the terminals might strip out, etc. but it will play clear music until it clips as long as it still works. Back in the day some amps sounded like crap, people wonder why the old RF amps have a semi loudness circuit in them its because they sounded fantastic in most cars when people had no EQs and crappy speakers/sources/etc.


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## JAX

ChrisB said:


> Exactly. Even something like a low cost 2011 Hyundai Sonata with the premium sound system would be a royal pain to replace the deck with all the other factory functions running through it. Just how many of those aftermarket processors will take Hyundai's SPDIF connector and turn it into something that those amplifiers with their stone age RCA connections can use?
> 
> Case and point. My wife liked the sound system in her 2011 Genesis Coupe but it didn't have enough bass for her. One LOC, sub, box, and amplifier was all it took to make her happy.



your wife has a Genesis ! those are sweet. 

I must admit if I bought a new car it would most likely be fine with exception of the sub section. head unit would probably do all I needed it too.

I dont know if old stuff was better in respect to SQ compared to now but I do think they made them better and had better parts . that is why they are still around. 

I dont think they have done anything magical as far as the internals that make it sound any better. 

they have just made them more efficient in doing the same thing.

we wont know if they were made to last until time has passed.

I prefer amps maybe 5yrs old over the stuff from the early 2000's


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## Vermithrax

I think this debate has less to do with the actual equipment and more to do with the psychology. A lot of the old school guys are steeped in nostalgia and the fact that they were involved during a time when the industry was thriving and innovations happened on a larger scale than what I'm seeing today.

New schoolers for the most part want the most bang for the buck, brand loyalty is more fleeting than what I remember and the overall level of excitement over new products wears thin a lot sooner. Of course this could be a result of an overall change in my own personal perception as the years pass by.

It just doesn't seem as though R&D is as much of a focus and the threshold of acceptable quality overall has been lowered, in general. Things have moved to an expectation of more for less, therefore we can expect more of less.

One thing I find kinda funny is to speculate what it will be like 20yrs. from now for the new gen. of audio enthusiasts. Will they still embrace the new products and disavow the relics of their youth, or will they rather become the nostalgic old schoolers with which they're now debating?


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## Sound Suggestions

Good stuff here! I like this debate, having lived and experience both old school and today gear. I can honestly say that there was some great stuff back in the day when companies weren't being pressure to boost power stats, there was a time when you could compete in watt ranges of 50w and under and have fantatic sounding equipment, now our days if a manufacturer released an amp 25w x 2 (kind of known as cheater amps) people wouldn't buy it because another company would claim 2000w, unfortunately we live in an a time where marketing takes precedence over experience.

Having said that, there has been some nice improvements over the last couple decades. Bottom line is you get for what you pay for! Spend $100 you'll get $100 performance....

Please support high end manufacturer before they fade out of business. Then we'll definitely be talking that old school was better!


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## ChrisB

JAX said:


> your wife has a Genesis ! those are sweet.


Yep, she was tired of the Mazda Tribute and wanted something sporty. I wanted her to look at a friend's Supra, but she can't drive a manual. I told her she needed to look at the Genesis, and she fell in love with the 3.8 Grand Touring model. Of course, I'll probably NEVER get my Lunar L1500 back now!



JAX said:


> I must admit if I bought a new car it would most likely be fine with exception of the sub section. head unit would probably do all I needed it too.


The HU swap would be a major problem with a car like my wife's. The HU is integrated into the climate controls to the point where you use the touch screen on the HU along with some of the manual controls. Swapping that out would be a royal PITA.



JAX said:


> I dont know if old stuff was better in respect to SQ compared to now but I do think they made them better and had better parts . that is why they are still around.


One of the theories I once had about old school gear is that the gear itself forced the manufacturer out of business. Think about it, they purposefully OVER built a product with the best parts available at the time and some offered as long as a 5 year warranty. Knowing that your customers won't be upgrading to the latest and greatest for at least 5 years is a risky business proposal and would probably be the death of many electronics companies today. 

Also, fast forward to today. Many of the 12v products are pushing the limits of their components, but they are cheap. If you blow it up, you chunk it and buy another one because it is cheaper to start over than it is to fix something. 



JAX said:


> I dont think they have done anything magical as far as the internals that make it sound any better.
> 
> they have just made them more efficient in doing the same thing.
> 
> we wont know if they were made to last until time has passed.
> 
> I prefer amps maybe 5yrs old over the stuff from the early 2000's


Features seems to be the main attraction of the newer stuff but that's about it. While I am at it, how many out of the box, full active decks are on the market? The Pioneer Stage 4 is the only one that I can think of that will do full active with time alignment out of the box. With Alpine, you can add Imprint to some models, but I can't think of any other 2011 models out there ready to go active that can be purchased from a dealer.

Lastly, if I really wanted to live in nostalgia, I'd be rocking all pre-HD Punch 150s because that IS what i ran back in the day. Come to think of it, I ran some up until 1999 or so. One of my friends still has a Punch 150 that he purchased from me along with my old Solobaric 12.


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## Angrywhopper

Vermithrax said:


> It just doesn't seem as though R&D is as much of a focus and the threshold of acceptable quality overall has been lowered, in general. Things have moved to an expectation of more for less, therefore we can expect more of less.


It's not really their fault. Customers dictate what gets researched, developed, and eventually brought to the market. The majority of customers want a cheap headunit that has a usb input for their ipod. They want to spend $100 on a pair of speakers etc..

Car Audio isin't what it used to be. It's no longer a big part of people's lives. Many are ok with the 'good enough' products. Try selling a $700 amplifier to a regular joe walking into your car audio store... He will walk right out. Pair that with the fact that many of the new cars come with better sound systems than before and some are extremely difficult to work on, it's just a bad time for car audio. We are in the business to make money, and something has to give somewhere. It is unfortunate though


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## JAX

man I had a long day at work when I responded to this last night...

I do think as a whole there were amps made back in the day that were better but better because of what was in them. To get a amp today that has the same specs as then you will have to spend $500+ to get them specs. 

look at the specs now. they dont list the voltage the rms is taken at, they have lower THD and SN . Damping is not even listed let alone slew rate. Inside doesnt look nearly as clean. 

I think the old Soundstream Reference and the PG ZPA amps were some of the nicest laid out boards ever. 

You bought one and you knew it was solid (well..not all refs but you know) and it was good sound quality power.

Today you dont quite get that unless you are willing to pay . there are only a handful still made that way. the rest are most likely made right next to another companies amps in the same plant .

Look at the new Refs and the HR4 . heck the HR4 is the same amp as before and it still cant sell. there should be none left to buy at the current price and yet people are still not grabbing them all. That HR4 has some super impressive specs ..probably the best I can recall seeing in any amp but yet its rock bottom cheap now. 

If the economy hadnt tanked then lots of things might be different but it is what it is and people are on budgets including me. or else I would own a HR4


you get what you pay for ? maybe...or you get a good deal on old school gear and get more. 

I can buy a old school amp for $100-150 or I can buy a new amp for less than $200. its kind of a toss up but I would prefer a old school because of what is inside . not cause of nostalgia.

I have sold all my JL amps in order to run all PG titanium ala 1998 because I got a deal so good I nearly wet myself. and cause I know it will sound good. and I have no doubt it is doing what it was advertised to do.


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## sqshoestring

Angrywhopper said:


> It's not really their fault. Customers dictate what gets researched, developed, and eventually brought to the market. The majority of customers want a cheap headunit that has a usb input for their ipod. They want to spend $100 on a pair of speakers etc..
> 
> Car Audio isin't what it used to be. It's no longer a big part of people's lives. Many are ok with the 'good enough' products. Try selling a $700 amplifier to a regular joe walking into your car audio store... He will walk right out. Pair that with the fact that many of the new cars come with better sound systems than before and some are extremely difficult to work on, it's just a bad time for car audio. We are in the business to make money, and something has to give somewhere. It is unfortunate though


It was that way in the 80s, big audio was a young persons game so actually the market should be larger today....you sure as hell didn't have people over 40 buying a thing at an audio store back then their AM radio was just fine. Yes they sold a lot of cheap stuff too. On the other hand one reason amps are so cheap and anyone can build them...is because they are so simple and evolved from an electronics standpoint. Some of those 80s amps had already reached that close to perfection and that is why they still work fine today. If you can't build one now with near perfect audio specs you should shoot yourself, because a lot of highschool Asian kids can do it in class. Sure a class H maybe D takes some effort, still an amp is a toaster in today's world of technology. In fact why has time stood still? I can buy a netbook for a couple hundred, yet how about an amp with full DSP digital into the outputs??? Still the same old crap, or a million dollars for what should be sold. Same thing with HUs, why isnt it all solid state with somewhat unlimited options for programmable processing....who knows. Instead you have a few people with brains fumbling around turning crappy little PCs into audio systems, imagine what IBM/Nokia/etc could come up with for a $200 price point. Seems like we would have wireless networking between high end amps and HUs. But, obviously technology stopped and ICs are far more expensive than anyone thought they would be, or we don't have any engineers that know how to implement them.

Far as speakers they should be cheaper because materials and manufacturing technology has come a long way since the 80s. Even back then they took cheap drivers and built high end home equipment and that was fine, so why should even better and cheaper to make drivers cost that much today? I'm not saying all, just saying it should trend that way. Its not like you can buy a new planar diffracted ceramic composite warp driven speaker that works better than the same old 100year old cone speaker they _still_ sell today. Its times like this when you wonder if technology failed us, or we are not smart enough to use it....at least I do. However we are so smart we can defund things like NASA who came up with a lot of innovations we use today. I sure as * don't understand why things like this get stuck in time, its irritating, I thought I lived in the USA.

And if nobody can afford to buy this cool new stuff, well then why is that?


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## ChrisB

You know that brings up an interesting point. Why are we still stuck with proprietary head units that are locked into what a manufacturer thinks we want? I saw the Android prototype at CES reviewed on mp3car.com and thought how nice it would be to offer a computer with software add-ons as a head unit. Just think, you could buy the base CD/DVD function with AM/FM then add on your processing, nav, blue tooth, ODBII display, etc. via software modules. Why anyone hasn't come up with this is beyond me.

Speaking of that, another common gripe of mine is those dang RCAs on EVERYTHING. I thought for sure that we would be ready for SPDIF (coaxial or optical) or at least balanced XLR in the 12v world, yet the manufacturers still milk RCAs like it is the 80s. The OEMs have been using balanced connections for at least 10 years and are starting to migrate to SPDIF as well, yet here we are stuck with 99% of the amplifiers on the market still taking ancient RCAs.


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## TrickyRicky

RCA's will be here for another 10-20 years. Slowly but surely they will dissapear, but no time soon.


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## Angrywhopper

ChrisB said:


> You know that brings up an interesting point. Why are we still stuck with proprietary head units that are locked into what a manufacturer thinks we want? I saw the Android prototype at CES reviewed on mp3car.com and thought how nice it would be to offer a computer with software add-ons as a head unit. Just think, you could buy the base CD/DVD function with AM/FM then add on your processing, nav, blue tooth, ODBII display, etc. via software modules. Why anyone hasn't come up with this is beyond me.
> 
> Speaking of that, another common gripe of mine is those dang RCAs on EVERYTHING. I thought for sure that we would be ready for SPDIF (coaxial or optical) or at least balanced XLR in the 12v world, yet the manufacturers still milk RCAs like it is the 80s. The OEMs have been using balanced connections for at least 10 years and are starting to migrate to SPDIF as well, yet here we are stuck with 99% of the amplifiers on the market still taking ancient RCAs.


I don't see the demand by the general public for what you just suggested. 

These large manufactures aren't dumb. I'm sure they have people doing their hw for them and are offering what consumers want.


----------



## sqshoestring

ChrisB said:


> You know that brings up an interesting point. Why are we still stuck with proprietary head units that are locked into what a manufacturer thinks we want? I saw the Android prototype at CES reviewed on mp3car.com and thought how nice it would be to offer a computer with software add-ons as a head unit. Just think, you could buy the base CD/DVD function with AM/FM then add on your processing, nav, blue tooth, ODBII display, etc. via software modules. Why anyone hasn't come up with this is beyond me.


It seems to be some function of our society and/or business practice. I can't nail it down but I was raised that everything would have a cheap cpu in it by now including my 'fridge....so where are they? In reality for consumer use Apple is at the head of innovation with a ipod/ipad, yet the technology for it was here many years ago. If you look at cell phones (pretty high innovation products) we been screwed for a long time; these phones have had the ability to do all kinds of things from run my TV to start my car to buy from vending machines....yet in the US all that stuff is turned off, because the carrier can't charge you for it! So f u customer, on the other hand the government does not make efforts for secure systems to do these things, they just want more connectivity that breeds unsecurity. Maybe so they can watch us, note how they are using social network material for investigations and such lol. Whatever the case technology has been stopped there and that is not even counting innovation that was stopped. Why is it we don't supply jobs and larger income to engineers here? I was an engineer and it sucked; soon as the project is finished you are out the door who wants to work for that? Lawyers make piles of money though, CEOs make piles even ones that run their banks and automakers into the ground. The morons get rewarded and the real innovaters get left on the street, the innovaters that will ensure the wealth of our children/etc.

One of the most difficult and rewarding fields is materials innovation, something NASA maybe DARPA does a lot of....yet who cares about them. You innovate a new insulation, solar cell, battery, etc that does things better and you are a billionaire but of course most people or small companies don't have the means to do so. Anyone can write new software and soon someone else will write it better, but materials are difficult.

In reality you might as well have something like a smartphone be your HU that integrates with the factory unit. You can still replace drivers and amps as needed. Just make a faceplate/screen or use the phone, run a breakout box at the amps for all your connections, etc. It would be easy enough to stick that in a mount kit for a normal HU anyway. With a smart device you have any options....which runs into another point...

How about open source like the net has? You don't get a smart device HU now because they can't figure out how to charge you for it. Take the smart phone you have an app store. Now that is fine, but who is going to sell a HU app to run this providing the phone (or whatever it is) is capable of streaming audio. The carPC certainly is the prototype, and far more capable than even a good HU needs to be....on the other hand maybe you will want to game on your HU at some point lol.

I had a top of line kenwood HU back in the day, with metal tapes and dolby C it was very near CD quality in the car. I never had a problem with it and ran that thing for many years. The stuff was expensive, but on the other hand it should have been because it was NEW. Today they make the same tired crap and add a USB jack on it and think its new? BFD. Lossless solid state storage, optical or network cabling, programmable outputs, and a large screen menu would be new. Yeah they are working on it, but I'll be dead before it happens.

Kenwood did have a 5 band EQ in their top of line HU in the late 80s. Twenty plus years later I can get a quad processor 3Ghz whatever PC pretty cheap, and whoa I scored a 16band EQ and DSP in my HU for reasonable cash. Eleven more bands (though it is 2x16band) in over two decades, and they just came out with the 31 band for a stiff price. HU are way behind IMHO just like most audio gear, cell phones, home automation, and on and on. Smart phones are a huge step, maybe diversication in their uses will come sooner than past accomplishments because they can run software.


----------



## PPI_GUY

I think consumers have changed over the last 20 years. When I got into car audio (mid-late 80's) amps weren't cheap. Seems I paid around $250 each for a couple Rockford Punch 45's back then. That was $500 and for a kid going to college, working part-time, that was alot of coin just on amps alone. BUT...I had seen those amps used by my friends and others in contests. I had seen them wired down to scary low impedances, they 'felt' solid, heavy and well built. So, I was was buying quality and reliability. In order to get that level of quality, I knew I had to pay more. 

Fast forward to 2011 and kids in high school or college working part-time jobs could buy alot of amp for $500 but, most don't. They spend $140 on an Audiopipe amp that claims 2000 watts and when it goes up in smoke in 6 months, they go out and buy another one. All they want in a head unit is a USB port or aux. input for their Ipod. They could care less about the cd section. 1-bit DAC...sure! Bring it on! They don't care. It's all about a way cheap, easy way to play their Ipod in the car.

So, what does all of this mean? Simple. We have become a cheap, disposable society. Quality and reliability are now secondary considerations to the lowest initial cost possible. Someone called it the race to zero. People want it cheap and they want it now. Ever wonder how Boss, Audiobahn, Audiopipe, etc. do so well? Because those companies give people EXACTLY what they want. The "race to zero" will ultimately kill car audio. As consumers demand cheaper and cheaper products, more manufacturers will be forced out of business. It's simple economics.

Those of us interested in SQ are also a dying breed. Hell, I don't even own an Ipod. I can't stand the thin, compressed sound I get from them. I have 40,000 songs on an external hard drive that I use for local car shows. When I am setting up playlists at home, I have to hear that crappy compressed sound and it's horrible! Why would I want that for Telarc recordings? But, that format is the standard and companies cater to what consumers want. So, when we argue over how car audio products have changed over the years, we have no one to blame but ourselves.


----------



## ChrisB

Hey, I have a couple of iPods myself. One of them only has lossless material on it and the other one has a 50/50 mix of lossless and compressed formats. Of course, my vehicle isn't the only place I use the iPods.

Speaking of compressed media, such as MP3 versus uncompressed, it almost doesn't matter with modern music. It's a shame that with all that dynamic range available on a CD that most modern productions keep the level between -6 and -10 dB RMS. All the reasons to use a CD have pretty much gone straight out of the window with the modern day "loudness wars" production style technique.


----------



## ErinH

PPI_GUY said:


> They could care less about the cd section. 1-bit DAC...sure! Bring it on! They don't care.


Oddly enough, people fall all over themselves to buy old school decks because they sound better than anything today. yet...


> The 7909¹s 18 bit, 18x oversampling
> technology used with a *1 bit DAC *delivered the best possible sound
> reproduction for CDs.



personally, I'm still waiting for someone to put up the best SQ 8-track player in the classifieds here so I can buy it and tout it as the best technology ever...


(ps: key word in above quoted? 'delivered'... with an _'ed' _at the end. )


----------



## ryan s

sqshoestring said:


> It seems to be some function of our society and/or business practice. I can't nail it down but I was raised that everything would have a cheap cpu in it by now including my 'fridge....so where are they?


Now that one is easy to figure out. How many fridges have you bought--brand new--in the last 20 years? Count up cell phones, computers, and anything else with a microprocessor in it and there's your answer 

And it's not for lack of manufacturers trying--there's fridges out there with WiFi and one that even inventories your food inside the fridge and automatically orders more when you run out. But it costs a ton, naturally, so no one's buying them to "trickle down" the tech to the proletariat :laugh:


bikinpunk said:


> Oddly enough, people fall all over themselves to buy old school decks because they sound better than anything today. yet...
> 
> personally, I'm still waiting for someone to put up the best SQ 8-track player in the classifieds here so I can buy it and tout it as the best technology ever...
> 
> (ps: key word in above quoted? 'delivered'... with an _'ed' _at the end. )


Truth hurts, especially when viewing the world through nostalgia :laugh: Oddly enough, I agree with cajunner on this as well :surprised: 7909s retailed for like, what, $700 back in the day? Yet a P99 is "too expensive" at less money when adjusting for inflation, and you only get, oh, all your processing included


----------



## jrs1006

ChrisB said:


> Hey, I have a couple of iPods myself. One of them only has lossless material on it and the other one has a 50/50 mix of lossless and compressed formats. Of course, my vehicle isn't the only place I use the iPods.
> 
> Speaking of compressed media, such as MP3 versus uncompressed, it almost doesn't matter with modern music. It's a shame that with all that dynamic range available on a CD that most modern productions keep the level between -6 and -10 dB RMS. All the reasons to use a CD have pretty much gone straight out of the window with the modern day "loudness wars" production style technique.


I agree that todays recordings do not have the dynamic range they used to. I know this is going to really date me but who remembers DAT. It was a recording format that died. But my point is not about DAT its about how even CD's have gone down in sound quality. can anyone remember these letters....DDD, ADD, AAD. Now its pretty much all crappy mp3 or even AAC. 

The mentality in the consumer market has to change. someone earlier said that as memory is getting bigger and cheaper then we can have it back but. I think anyone that was a teenager in the mid to late '90's has become accostomed to crappy sound. I once listened to a coworkers ipod and I kid you not I think AM sounded better.

As for the demand for product.....it has to be created. Awareness and marketing are the only thing that is going to get us out of this funk. Heck all decks should be DVD/CD players by now even single din. They should carry digital outs. Heck stay with coax(RCA type) then add processors to the amps or eq's or other components. If we can buy today a home theatre amp with 7.1 ch processing and pay less the $500 then why can't we apply the same tech to car. 

What we need is a group or company to step ouside of the comfort zone and say.....get "high def for your ears". Change the notions that audio has to be garbage. Lets just throw out the old terms "SQ" its all about HD. 

What we need is innovation. If I was to start a company thats what I would pursue. Create a market for audio that is HD. I mean even in car displays are still lack luster. I mean a new cell phone has better picture then any deck on the market. 

I mean I like the old school but let's run with it. I mean the only company that is touting how "good" something sounds is BOSE and I wont even get started on that garbage. It's all marketing. 

I would love to see a comapnay like RE or Arc step out and build this stuff. Its not like the tech is not there. I really think that the future could be found in the android market as far as an OS for the car.


----------



## FAUEE

Yeah, I find today's indash units pathetic. You get a better interface on a phone nowdays, and the OEMs are coming out with better indashes than aftermarket companies.

I think society has changed a lot. College kids nowdays aren't working their way through school, they're living off mommy and daddy for the most part, so their disposable income has no meaning to them. So they're not going to save up for something quality, if it breaks it doesnt matter to them, theyll use their parents money to buy a new cheap amp.


----------



## sqshoestring

ryan s said:


> Now that one is easy to figure out. How many fridges have you bought--brand new--in the last 20 years? Count up cell phones, computers, and anything else with a microprocessor in it and there's your answer
> 
> And it's not for lack of manufacturers trying--there's fridges out there with WiFi and one that even inventories your food inside the fridge and automatically orders more when you run out. But it costs a ton, naturally, so no one's buying them to "trickle down" the tech to the proletariat :laugh:
> 
> Truth hurts, especially when viewing the world through nostalgia :laugh: Oddly enough, I agree with cajunner on this as well :surprised: 7909s retailed for like, what, $700 back in the day? Yet a P99 is "too expensive" at less money when adjusting for inflation, and you only get, oh, all your processing included


Lol, my fridge is less than 2yr old. No I didn't spend much had a lot of other things including the new freezer I bought at near the same time....to save all that electricity the govt site said I would...and did not....but anyway I don't recall even seeing one at lowes with a screen in the front of it. The f thing does have an icemaker, one of mans best inventions, lol! :laugh:

Fridge is maybe not the best example, I guess what I mean is why is it so hard to make X product when often the technology is here and used in other products (meaning its not a giant leap)? That tells me we don't have the expertise to engineer that product, or things are so screwed up we can't afford to.

For some reason we can spend billions on new drugs that might not even work, but can't spend what on a new simple in comparison HU....or so they say.


----------



## TrickyRicky

Would a LP record would sound better than an 8-track?


----------



## ChrisB

TrickyRicky said:


> Would a LP record would sound better than an 8-track?


I think the 8-track would win on a Louisiana road because the needle won't stay in the groove for an LP.:laugh:


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## sqshoestring

8 track sucked, though the ones I heard might have been all worn out, plus the typical car player was a $10 pos. A metal cassette could sound quite good, off say a Nak home deck. Tapes never skipped either lol, but the players took a dump eventually. Now I see CD players do the same, I am amazed how crappy home DVD and VHS players are now I've gone through a bunch of them. I guess we have plenty of room in the landfill.


----------



## ryan s

FAUEE said:


> I think society has changed a lot. College kids nowdays aren't working their way through school, they're living off mommy and daddy for the most part, so their disposable income has no meaning to them. So they're not going to save up for something quality, if it breaks it doesnt matter to them, theyll use their parents money to buy a new cheap amp.


What an ignorant, totally incorrect brush you paint generalities with 

The way you talk about "kids nowadays," I bet I finished college more recently than you. So who would have the nearest view? Yep...that's a rhetorical question.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but was there any consideration before you called an entire generation of people lazy?


sqshoestring said:


> Lol, my fridge is less than 2yr old. No I didn't spend much had a lot of other things including the new freezer I bought at near the same time....to save all that electricity the govt site said I would...and did not....but anyway I don't recall even seeing one at lowes with a screen in the front of it. The f thing does have an icemaker, one of mans best inventions, lol! :laugh:
> 
> Fridge is maybe not the best example, I guess what I mean is why is it so hard to make X product when often the technology is here and used in other products (meaning its not a giant leap)? That tells me we don't have the expertise to engineer that product, or things are so screwed up we can't afford to.
> 
> For some reason we can spend billions on new drugs that might not even work, but can't spend what on a new simple in comparison HU....or so they say.


Ice makers are so great...trays are so annoying and inconvenient (but cheap)...

We do have the expertise to engineer almost anything we want...issue is, who's going to buy it? Who's going to buy a 99PRS/DRZ9255/etc-like head unit for even $500? With magic boxes like the MS-8 and BitOne people don't have to tear into their dashboard to fit a single-DIN unit where it wasn't meant to go.

There was something on Nova probably a week ago...if we had paralleled processor technology growth with the same rate as transportation innovations, we'd by flying around 4 times faster than the space shuttle :laugh: But a computer chip requires a lot less infrastructure than a *complete *overhaul of our transportation methods


----------



## Silver Supra

In my experience (yes I lives through the glory days)... the Old School era was so cool because it was a cottage industry sold by true enthusiasts. When you bought the amp that you saved up months for it was like buying a piece of jewelry. I remember having a pair of Alphasonik GP-2100's (back when they made quality gear) under my bed in college as I saved up for my subs. I'd pull them out and just look at them. Same went for my even older PG MS-275. It's a work of art.

Today you can buy an amp at best buy that probably sounds as good, but there is just no passion or craftsmanship in it. It's like shopping for an appliance.

The old school stuff was as much about the community as it was about the gear. You were in on the new fad that very few others knew about. It was cool. I remember taking my pull-out Concord head unit into my high-school. Yea I was a badass. 

I recently compared my MS-275 to my Audison VRx and the Audison was a bit better, but not as much as I would have thought. The GOOD old school stuff really was good.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Silver Supra said:


> In my experience (yes I lives through the glory days)... the Old School era was so cool because it was a cottage industry sold by true enthusiasts. When you bought the amp that you saved up months for it was like buying a piece of jewelry. I remember having a pair of Alphasonik GP-2100's (back when they made quality gear) under my bed in college as I saved up for my subs. I'd pull them out and just look at them. Same went for my even older PG MS-275. It's a work of art.
> 
> Today you can buy an amp at best buy that probably sounds as good, but there is just no passion or craftsmanship in it. It's like shopping for an appliance.
> 
> The old school stuff was as much about the community as it was about the gear. You were in on the new fad that very few others knew about. It was cool. I remember taking my pull-out Concord head unit into my high-school. Yea I was a badass.
> 
> I recently compared my MS-275 to my Audison VRx and the Audison was a bit better, but not as much as I would have thought. The GOOD old school stuff really was good.


Sounds like we must have had nearly identical car audio experiences. Having a pull-out head unit was the shyt back in the day. I also remember the first touch screen head units from Eclipse. Agree completely on the feeling of being a part of something that was just busting loose. Seemed every week a new product came out. Innovation was everywhere in car audio. CA & E, CSR, Autosound & Security were all right there covering it as it broke. We would see stuff in the mags and be at our local shop on Monday asking if they could get it and how much. Awesome time!


----------



## 350RX7

I can't really defend my opinion here, but I will say years ago I had the Alpine 5903 CD player. All I can remember was that it only played CD's. It didn't have a radio and it was a pull out deck. LOL. However, everyone that saw it told me to hang on to it for as long as I could because the components in it was very good quality. I also had an Alpine tape/tuner deck and I could play either CD's or switch to the tape/radio. It was pretty cool back then and the fact that I could pull out the decks and walk away with them. LOL, oh those were the days.


----------



## SQ_Bronco

PPI_GUY said:


> Sounds like we must have had nearly identical car audio experiences. Having a pull-out head unit was the shyt back in the day. I also remember the first touch screen head units from Eclipse. Agree completely on the feeling of being a part of something that was just busting loose. Seemed every week a new product came out. Innovation was everywhere in car audio. CA & E, CSR, Autosound & Security were all right there covering it as it broke. We would see stuff in the mags and be at our local shop on Monday asking if they could get it and how much. Awesome time!


Yeah, I had that same experience, except I could never afford to buy anything then- when i eventually found myself in a position where I suddenly had disposable income, I went out and bought a bunch of "old school" amps. I now have a closet full of them, and I can't bring myself to sell them for nostalgic reasons. And, when it comes down to it, an LP 5002IQ or PPI 2200M or mmats SQ2150 will still do a better job on your midbass than an alpine pdx.

but this is really the golden era of car audio. buying power is vastly improved today, and there are still tons of cool toys coming out- bluetooth interfaces, usb and GPS technology, video, autotuinng OEM integration devices, digital parametric eq's, TA, etc. I remember in the early 00's despairing that there was literally no way to get mp3 in a car. Now you can't find an in-dash unit without it.

It's definitely not getting worse, overall; it's easier to build a decent-to-very good system now than it ever was, and prices have all come down. that's a good thing.


----------



## FAUEE

ryan s said:


> What an ignorant, totally incorrect brush you paint generalities with
> 
> The way you talk about "kids nowadays," I bet I finished college more recently than you. So who would have the nearest view? Yep...that's a rhetorical question.
> 
> I don't mean to sound argumentative, but was there any consideration before you called an entire generation of people lazy?


I'm qualified to call them that. I'm one of them, lol. I'm still in college. I have quite a few friends who never had a job through college, and just lived off mommy and daddy. A few more of them had joke jobs, 5 hours a week at some snooty clothing store in the mall or the like. Very few of the people my age that I know (at least that are in school and college kids) actually work their way through school. And the ones that do sure as hell don't have extra money for car audio stuff. Except for the very few who work full time and take a class or two a semester, they'll never finish a degree at that pace and so don't really count as college students. As an aside, I've been that guy, and now I'm a full time student. So I've seen both sides.

Don't worry, the coming generation is EVEN WORSE. My younger sister is turning 19, has never had a job or applied for anything. None of her friends have ever had a job. She and all her friends drive brand new cars/SUVs (most of them damn nice luxury ones, the worst car any of her friends has is a loaded out mazda3) and are obsessed with whatever new apple product or app is out. She also has no idea how to budget or any of the other basic economic ideas that people need to survive. It's only going to get worse from here on out.

As an aside, those kids don't give a crap about car audio. They just want an aux input for their ipod and that's it. In HS and my early college years it seemed like 30-60% would have some sort of aftermarket audio in their cars, whether it was just a radio and speakers, amp and sub, something. That number is closer to 10-30% for her friends, they just want to play their ipods, regardless of sound quality.


----------



## PPI_GUY

FAUEE said:


> Don't worry, the coming generation is EVEN WORSE. My younger sister is turning 19, has never had a job or applied for anything. None of her friends have ever had a job. She and all her friends drive brand new cars/SUVs (most of them damn nice luxury ones, the worst car any of her friends has is a loaded out mazda3) and are obsessed with whatever new apple product or app is out. She also has no idea how to budget or any of the other basic economic ideas that people need to survive. It's only going to get worse from here on out.
> 
> As an aside, those kids don't give a crap about car audio. They just want an aux input for their ipod and that's it. In HS and my early college years it seemed like 30-60% would have some sort of aftermarket audio in their cars, whether it was just a radio and speakers, amp and sub, something. That number is closer to 10-30% for her friends, they just want to play their ipods, regardless of sound quality.


Thanks for making my point about the ultimate demise of car audio and now car manufacturers are catching on to the demand for aux. inputs so, where does that leave the aftermarket head unit market? And sound quality? Forget about it.

About your sister; I really feel sorry for her and her friends. This country is where it is today because people simply don't know how to setup a personal budget and stay within it. To many people want a couple of brand new Lexus' and a extravagant house without any thought of making the payments, paying the bills AND putting money away. 
On the bright side, she is already qualified to work in our Federal Government.


----------



## JAX

FAUEE said:


> I'm qualified to call them that. I'm one of them, lol. I'm still in college. I have quite a few friends who never had a job through college, and just lived off mommy and daddy. A few more of them had joke jobs, 5 hours a week at some snooty clothing store in the mall or the like. Very few of the people my age that I know (at least that are in school and college kids) actually work their way through school. And the ones that do sure as hell don't have extra money for car audio stuff. Except for the very few who work full time and take a class or two a semester, they'll never finish a degree at that pace and so don't really count as college students. As an aside, I've been that guy, and now I'm a full time student. So I've seen both sides.
> 
> Don't worry, the coming generation is EVEN WORSE. My younger sister is turning 19, has never had a job or applied for anything. None of her friends have ever had a job. She and all her friends drive brand new cars/SUVs (most of them damn nice luxury ones, the worst car any of her friends has is a loaded out mazda3) and are obsessed with whatever new apple product or app is out. She also has no idea how to budget or any of the other basic economic ideas that people need to survive. It's only going to get worse from here on out.
> 
> As an aside, those kids don't give a crap about car audio. They just want an aux input for their ipod and that's it. In HS and my early college years it seemed like 30-60% would have some sort of aftermarket audio in their cars, whether it was just a radio and speakers, amp and sub, something. That number is closer to 10-30% for her friends, they just want to play their ipods, regardless of sound quality.


hmmm isnt that nice. all of your parents need a good ass whippin. I really fear for my 2 year old because of things like this.

the generations after you guys are going to have a tough time having anything because its all going to be destroyed by the Politicians and the worthless drones that are coming up.

sooner or later us old folk are going to die..cant say retire cause we will probably have to keep working till the time we die. 

way to be productive members of society and your parents should be smacked.

imo


----------



## FAUEE

My sister wants to be a "sports psychologist" but also expects to live a lifestyle funded by a 6 figure salary. But yes, the future generations will utterly ruin this country. THey have entitlement issues and always feel like they've worked for something even if what they did is menial.

I know a kid who has a very "holier than thou" attitude because he's youngish and drives a Mercedes C300. But he maintains that since his parents bought him a Saturn to start with, then a Saab, then a Mini Cooper that he's grounded and not spoiled. He claims that he pays for his C300 himself. The caveat? His parents set up a company for him and his brother to work for that is more or less automated. They distribute or drop ship vitamins and other supplement type stuff, an basically don't have to do anything except be paid by their parents' company. But he LOVES to bra about how he "makes more than the median American family while working part time and being in school full time". He also thinks that his business classes are hard, lol.

Sometimes I think there should be laws against spoiling children.


----------



## sqshoestring

Their day will come, don't worry. It will come soon because the boomers are going to retire...or the ones that can afford it will...and guess who is left to pay for everything, yep, those who work.


----------



## ryan s

FAUEE said:


> I'm qualified to call them that. I'm one of them, lol. I'm still in college. I have quite a few friends who never had a job through college, and just lived off mommy and daddy. A few more of them had joke jobs, 5 hours a week at some snooty clothing store in the mall or the like. Very few of the people my age that I know (at least that are in school and college kids) actually work their way through school. And the ones that do sure as hell don't have extra money for car audio stuff. Except for the very few who work full time and take a class or two a semester, they'll never finish a degree at that pace and so don't really count as college students. As an aside, I've been that guy, and now I'm a full time student. So I've seen both sides.
> 
> Don't worry, the coming generation is EVEN WORSE. My younger sister is turning 19, has never had a job or applied for anything. None of her friends have ever had a job. She and all her friends drive brand new cars/SUVs (most of them damn nice luxury ones, the worst car any of her friends has is a loaded out mazda3) and are obsessed with whatever new apple product or app is out. She also has no idea how to budget or any of the other basic economic ideas that people need to survive. It's only going to get worse from here on out.
> 
> As an aside, those kids don't give a crap about car audio. They just want an aux input for their ipod and that's it. In HS and my early college years it seemed like 30-60% would have some sort of aftermarket audio in their cars, whether it was just a radio and speakers, amp and sub, something. That number is closer to 10-30% for her friends, they just want to play their ipods, regardless of sound quality.


I didn't work through school my first two years...taking 18 credits and all.

Last two years, I was doing 30-40 hours a week while taking 13-15 credits. Second shift weekdays, usually 9-5 Saturdays. 

Then again, I also know people who got kicked out of school or kicked out of on-campus housing so I guess *everybody's* dropping out of school before finishing theses days...err wait. Correlation does not imply causation 



PPI_GUY said:


> About your sister; I really feel sorry for her and her friends. This country is where it is today because people simply don't know how to setup a personal budget and stay within it. To many people want a couple of brand new Lexus' and a extravagant house without any thought of making the payments, paying the bills AND putting money away.
> On the bright side, she is already qualified to work in our Federal Government.


So it's not the predatory lender's fault; rather, the people who took bad loans? Interesting...


JAX said:


> hmmm isnt that nice. all of your parents need a good ass whippin. I really fear for my 2 year old because of things like this.
> 
> the generations after you guys are going to have a tough time having anything because its all going to be destroyed by the Politicians and the worthless drones that are coming up.
> 
> sooner or later us old folk are going to die..cant say retire cause we will probably have to keep working till the time we die.
> 
> way to be productive members of society and your parents should be smacked.
> 
> imo


People have been saying America's in the ****ter since the federal government was established way back in the day...like the late 1700s. Just keep throwing money at capitalism, it'll get better eventually...maybe :laugh:

But you won't live to see it because the retirement age will be 78 and you'll get $10 a month from Medicare...can't touch military funding though, grandpa's gotta earn that check! :laugh:


sqshoestring said:


> Their day will come, don't worry. It will come soon because the boomers are going to retire...or the ones that can afford it will...and guess who is left to pay for everything, yep, those who work.


...how it's always been  Well, in our lifetimes...we weren't alive during FDR's presidency.


----------



## tnbubba

predatory lendors..OMG

if you were stoopid enuff to sign the loan you got what you deserved!!
25% interest..yea baby.. PEOPLE are stupid thanks to our government education system.
What did they not understand about ADJUSTABLE mortgage? yea signing a loan they knew they could not pay back makes a lender a predator!


----------



## PPI_GUY

This thread has gotten off track and I am to blame for some of that. My apologies to ChrisB. However, so much of our hobby can be tied to economic factors that dictate what is bought. Disposable income and all. When you are paying all the monthly bills and trying to put a few dollars away in the current economic climate, you watch each and every dollar. Or atleast you should. The correlation between working and saving up for a piece of car audio equipment can't be denied. I can remember buying my first system and EXPECTING it to be of fairly good quality, reliable and durable. When you have your own hard earned money invested in a purchase, you become more emotionally attached to your investment. The way things are now, kids get $200-$300 a week from Mom & Dad 'just because' and run out and buy a cheap 2000 watt amp. If it goes poof, no big deal, they'll just buy another one next week. It's the disposable society thing I referred to earlier.
Just trying to get the discussion back on track.


----------



## ryan s

tnbubba said:


> predatory lendors..OMG
> 
> if you were stoopid enuff to sign the loan you got what you deserved!!
> 25% interest..yea baby.. PEOPLE are stupid thanks to our government education system.
> What did they not understand about ADJUSTABLE mortgage? yea signing a loan they knew they could not pay back makes a lender a predator!


Why are you totally ignoring (and absolving) an entire industry of wrongdoing? I thought businesses could regulate themselves? Big Business only has the consumer in mind and wants to give us the best deal on the best products...they won't take advantage of people to pad their bottom line [sarcasm].


PPI_GUY said:


> This thread has gotten off track and I am to blame for some of that. My apologies to ChrisB. However, so much of our hobby can be tied to economic factors that dictate what is bought. Disposable income and all. When you are paying all the monthly bills and trying to put a few dollars away in the current economic climate, you watch each and every dollar. Or atleast you should. The correlation between working and saving up for a piece of car audio equipment can't be denied. I can remember buying my first system and EXPECTING it to be of fairly good quality, reliable and durable. When you have your own hard earned money invested in a purchase, you become more emotionally attached to your investment. The way things are now, kids get $200-$300 a week from Mom & Dad 'just because' and run out and buy a cheap 2000 watt amp. If it goes poof, no big deal, they'll just buy another one next week. It's the disposable society thing I referred to earlier.
> Just trying to get the discussion back on track.


Why are people still on about "kids these days" being spoiled...as if the "magical" car audio period of the early 90s was free of spoiled kids? Wasn't there a recession in 1991? And 1995?

Tech gets cheaper to make as the years go by. We expect stuff to get cheaper as time goes on. Quality is usually expensive. Car audio is a niche, with "EssQue" a *very *small part of it "these days."

Back on topic, it's ironic how nostalgia works. How many people love their Chinese-made iPhones but secretly yearn for the "good old days" with a StarTac? Lose your unlimited minutes, texts, and data for $70 month for $1/minute rates?

Oh and it's 1994 all over again, what's a text? :laugh:

Who turns up their nose at a modern laptop for an Apple Newton?

Who here has a cassette player in their car?

Who here has a floppy drive in their computer? Just go look for a computer with one  (I have one to load my RAID driver but I haven't used it in years)










"They don't make em like they used to" isn't always a bad thing. True for car audio.


----------



## truckerfte

if old school was really that much better....my soundstreams wouldn't still be sitting in the classifieds section.

and i agree, tech has gotten a lot cheaper these days.

the mbq dsc amps i have sitting in my spare room are most likely just as good as the orion hcca's and sx's sitting right next to them. but the 225 hcca back in the day cost as much as the two quart amps....25x2(well, sort of) vs 125x4 and 1500x1. both in the $350 range, not accounting for inflation. 

now i will admit for an old guy like me, the lil red amp gives me a bigger boner. but im not going to say its better than the others just because of the era it came from


----------



## danno14

truckerfte said:


> the lil red amp gives me a bigger boner


 Sig worthy Quote! 


Part of what really matters is how it makes you feel..... "fond memories" are best left as that when going to your 20th reunion. In some cases car audio is the same. In other cases, not. That's why there are so many on here with closets full of that which they lusted after but could not/barely afford back in the day. Will all of this gear ever be used? Probably not, but it's better than resurrecting the mullet that Biff sported at the time! 






(reference to Biff, living or dead, is purely coincidental; and comical)


----------



## sqshoestring

When I was installing much of the expensive equipment was sold to dealers or pimps, some to people with money to burn. Normal people would buy one amp at a time for example, not come in and drop a few grand.

Ha, the old analog had the range, if you get out in the sticks you will be pissed they got rid of it. If you are city dweller you didn't notice that but did notice how that tiny battery lasts all week now. Mmm, I remember bag phones, all 3W of them. They were bag phones to a) carry that huge battery, and b) to keep some distance from you to the antenna lol.

Simple fact is most old school amps can make music just fine and are built with greater durability than current cheap stuff. What you want to use is up to you. There is no significant advancement in amplifiers excepting the power savings of class D and H, and unless you have a large sub system most any car can power a system of class AB amps and for sure if only the sub is class D. Ok, a somewhat normal system.

How about all those stupid people out there with 60s muscle cars living in yesterday, lol


----------



## Sarthos

I say it's a myth. I also definitely believe that CD players have gotten better over the years... So have different types of processors. You can match older amplifiers with new stuff, but I don't believe you can beat it. They pretty much just tie.


----------



## ChrisB

I will say this about old school amplifiers... They are a tad bit easier to service by your average DIYer because of the through-hole devices compared to the newer designs with surface mount devices. My old eyes and unsteady hands don't like soldering on something that is smaller than a grain of rice.

With that typed, I am not going to say that it makes the old school stuff "better"... just easier to keep in service!


----------



## CorNut

with head units I prefer new, but when it comes to amps and subs I truly believe the quality was better back in the day. My old school Punch power 12 is my hardest hitting sub I own, it's too bad my current car doesn't have enough room to utilize it


----------



## sqshoestring

I remember the early CD players had no memory they would skip.


----------



## FAUEE

The point is that car audio has grown in popularity, and with that a push for lower prices at all costs has come. A few manufacturers try to put out good stuff still, but everyone who's actually decently sized sells mostly entry level stuff. For every set of Type-X Alpine sold, there's probably 200 sets of Type-S. Maybe more. Everyone is bringing out budget lines, because that's what sells.

Yes, there were spoiled kids before. But not to the same extent as nowdays. The unrelenting debt driven spending of the current crop of 20-50 year olds is amazing. They demand to have all these things for them and their family, regardless of if they can really afford them, they can get financed for it!

I know people who go out and buy cars based on how much they can get financed for. My old job they DEMANDED that employees try to get everyone to get financed and spend as much as possible. Is it predatory? Yes. Is it the fault of the prey? Yes.

Overall I think that a lot of the lending practices are getting absurd. Your retail stores want you to spend more so they tangle low interest payments in front of you to get you to buy the bigger TV with the surround sound system as opposed to the TV you can afford today. You go into any store and the minimum wage person behind the counter is forced to ask you if you want to sign up for their credit card. It's getting absurd, and frankly I think that retailers/lenders need to step up, take some responsibility, and scale back. Some of the stuff retailers do nowdays is downright criminal.

Back on topic...

I think speaker technology has improved a lot since the old days. And quality amps as well. Show me an amp that puts out as much power as a GH, in as small of space as a GH, using as little current as a GH.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

FAUEE said:


> The point is that car audio has grown in popularity, and with that a push for lower prices at all costs has come. A few manufacturers try to put out good stuff still, but everyone who's actually decently sized sells mostly entry level stuff. For every set of Type-X Alpine sold, there's probably 200 sets of Type-S. Maybe more. Everyone is bringing out budget lines, because that's what sells.
> 
> Yes, there were spoiled kids before. But not to the same extent as nowdays. The unrelenting debt driven spending of the current crop of 20-50 year olds is amazing. They demand to have all these things for them and their family, regardless of if they can really afford them, they can get financed for it!
> 
> I know people who go out and buy cars based on how much they can get financed for. My old job they DEMANDED that employees try to get everyone to get financed and spend as much as possible. Is it predatory? Yes. Is it the fault of the prey? Yes.
> 
> Overall I think that a lot of the lending practices are getting absurd. Your retail stores want you to spend more so they tangle low interest payments in front of you to get you to buy the bigger TV with the surround sound system as opposed to the TV you can afford today. You go into any store and the minimum wage person behind the counter is forced to ask you if you want to sign up for their credit card. It's getting absurd, and frankly I think that retailers/lenders need to step up, take some responsibility, and scale back. Some of the stuff retailers do nowdays is downright criminal.
> 
> Back on topic...
> 
> I think speaker technology has improved a lot since the old days. And quality amps as well. Show me an amp that puts out as much power as a GH, in as small of space as a GH, using as little current as a GH.


what's a GH?


----------



## ChrisB

bd5034 said:


> what's a GH?


Amplifier topology class. Arc Audio and some other uBuy brands use this particular class and it is highly powerful and highly efficient for what it is. I have been running a Clarion DPX1851 since Crutchfield blew them out for $149.99. Not only did the Clarion produce more power at 2 ohms than a Linear Power 5002 did at 8 ohms mono, the Clarion also didn't suck the ever living life out of my 200 amp alternator to make that power.

Just to keep things fair and to prove I am not singling out Linear Power, I also preferred the Clarion over the following amplifiers at 2 ohms: Soundstream Reference 700s, 25 to Life Power 1000 sub channel, Crossfire BMF1000d, Alpine PDX-5 sub channel, and a few others that I tried. Furthermore, there is NO WAY that PDX-5 made 300 watts RMS on the sub channel because it barely moved the sub (13w6v2). 

I am waiting on delivery of a Stetsom V 1K5 H 1 Ohm to see if those little half bridge class D are as good as everyone says they are. I find it cool that it utilizes a Programmable IC to control the power supply and I find it scary that it utilizes a Programmable IC to control the power supply.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

ChrisB said:


> Amplifier topology class. Arc Audio and some other uBuy brands use this particular class and it is highly powerful and highly efficient for what it is. I have been running a Clarion DPX1851 since Crutchfield blew them out for $149.99. Not only did the Clarion produce more power at 2 ohms than a Linear Power 5002 did at 8 ohms mono, the Clarion also didn't suck the ever living life out of my 200 amp alternator to make that power.
> 
> Just to keep things fair and to prove I am not singling out Linear Power, I also preferred the Clarion over the following amplifiers at 2 ohms: Soundstream Reference 700s, 25 to Life Power 1000 sub channel, Crossfire BMF1000d, Alpine PDX-5 sub channel, and a few others that I tried. Furthermore, there is NO WAY that PDX-5 made 300 watts RMS on the sub channel because it barely moved the sub (13w6v2).
> 
> I am waiting on delivery of a Stetsom V 1K5 H 1 Ohm to see if those little half bridge class D are as good as everyone says they are. I find it cool that it utilizes a Programmable IC to control the power supply and I find it scary that it utilizes a Programmable IC to control the power supply.


wow I actually have heard of a class G amplifier but it totally went over my head this time. lol. I guess maybe it's too early in the morning or maybe my brain is still in a gluten-induced fog from all the junk food yesterday. Anyway, I am running a MB Quart discus 4125 and I don't remember a single amplifier from back in the "old school" days that had that sort of bang for the buck.


----------



## sqshoestring

Yeah I have no interest in running class AB on subs over about 300rms. Since I only need ~100rms/ch for highs the only thing I could use a large old school amp for would be midbass, and might not even need 150rms/ch for that depending on drivers. Somebody wants them, the prices never drop. Maybe I outgrew the cool factor of big old amps, I recall at the time they were like gold. When I started into this the LP 5002 was the biggest amp they sold and I used ear plugs to tune the few systems I did with one on a pair of RF 15s and two huge batteries twice the size of a car battery lol. All of use wanted to sleep with that amp lol.

Far as cheap products....I bought pyle 15s and put in my car.....because I didn't need a better sub. JC, if I open these up tuned pretty flat to under 30Hz IB they blow the highs into submission....its a joke. I mean I like some extra low bass of course or certainly would not have troubled to install the damn things....but its ridiculous from a music listening standpoint. Maybe cool if you run bass CDs but I don't, only to test subs is all. Yeah I am surprised they work this well I guess. I had an alpine 345 4x75 running four doors and there was no comparison, with boston comps in front alpine coax in rear.

So I can say while it may not be common....there is a use for cheap products. I would never want to run a cheap HU or processor/EQ/xover though and (for primary drivers) not cheap coax/comps or an amp cheaper than a kenwood because it will likely toast soon. But I have run cheap tweeters a lot, 8 ohm ones.

Lending....yeah it helps to have people's income at least rise with inflation, certainly the opposite is happening around here to many people. I know people that retired almost 20yr ago and workers at top rates in that field are making $5 less, that is pretty sad, plus they lost a lot of benefits and have to pay a lot of health care/etc now. (and these are non-union workers)


----------



## SQ_Bronco

ChrisB said:


> Not only did the Clarion produce more power at 2 ohms than a Linear Power 5002 did at 8 ohms mono


I have no idea how I am supposed to interpret this.


----------



## Quagmire

YouTube - HexiBase's Channel

Scroll down and watch "A Stereo Story" 

It explains the very reason why we are even having this debate/discussion.


----------



## truckerfte

lol...**** the signal to noise ratio, does it come in pink?

the guy seems bright, but maybe he should consider an internet radio show instead of video?

.....sorry, i guess that wasnt very nice....


----------



## ChrisB

SQ_Bronco said:


> I have no idea how I am supposed to interpret this.


Hmm, one amp produced 850 watts RMS into a 2 ohm load (coils in parallel) the other one barely made 500 watts (coils in series). Pretty simple if you ask me.:laugh: Granted, the measurements were performed using dummy loads, a power supply, oscilloscope, amp clamps, true RMS meters and all that other fun stuff since my cousin is an electrical engineer.

Of course with that said, I have proven to myself by going through nearly 50 amplifiers that one does NOT need a boneriffic, holy grail of SQ amp, to power a subwoofer in a freaking CAR!

For argument's sake, here is my running list of amplifiers that have passed through my hands since 2007:

Linear Power
2 - 5002
5 - 1502IQ
2 - 652
1 - LP150
1 - 1752
1 - 2.2 HV
1 - DPSQ50
1 - DPS 500

Rockford Fosgate
1 - punch 150
1 - power 1000
1 - Punch 300x
1 - 25 to life Power 1000
1 - 25 to Life Punch 150
1 - Power 351s
1 - Punch 5002

Orion
3 - 280 gx
1 - 250 sx
1 - 275 sx
5 - HCCA 225 Digital Ref
1 - HCCA 225 g5
1 - HCCA 250 G4

Lunar
2 - L60x2
1 - L1500
1 - L2125
1 - L450
1 - L100x2
1 - L2100

Others
1 - Clarion DPX1851
1 - Memphis 16-PR2.75
1 - Memphis 16-PR1.5KD
1 - Soundstream Reference 700s
1 - Alpine PDX-5
1 - Crossfire BMF1000d
1 - Cerwin Vega EXL-400.4
1 - JL Audio 500/1
1 - Zuki Eleets 4
1 - Stetsom V 1K5 H 1 Ohm


----------



## FAUEE

Chris: You buy too many amps  Your wife must yell at you constantly.


----------



## ChrisB

FAUEE said:


> Chris: You buy too many amps  Your wife must yell at you constantly.


I slowed down a lot.:laugh: Now I try to buy no more than 2 per quarter unless I sell or trade. At one point in time, one of my friends accused me of trying to start a car audio pawn shop.


----------



## Angrywhopper

Quagmire said:


> YouTube - HexiBase's Channel
> 
> Scroll down and watch "A Stereo Story"
> 
> It explains the very reason why we are even having this debate/discussion.


Hahahaha that was great. I really like that guy.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

ChrisB said:


> Hmm, one amp produced 850 watts RMS into a 2 ohm load (coils in parallel) the other one barely made 500 watts (coils in series). Pretty simple if you ask me.:laugh: Granted, the measurements were performed using dummy loads, a power supply, oscilloscope, amp clamps, true RMS meters and all that other fun stuff since my cousin is an electrical engineer.


I don't think the guy was asking for an explanation. I think he was saying that he wasn't sure what point you were trying to make. by that comparison.


----------



## ChrisB

bd5034 said:


> I don't think the guy was asking for an explanation. I think he was saying that he wasn't sure what point you were trying to make. by that comparison.


The Clarion pulled roughly 80 amps to make 850 watts whereas the LP pulled 95 amps to almost make 500 watts. At lower volume, the LP still pulled close to 40 amps to make next to no power whereas the Clarion pulled 5 to 10 amps at the same output level.

Efficiency and power are gained by the NuSkool amps. So I guess the myth still stands.:laugh:


----------



## Wheres The Butta

ChrisB said:


> The Clarion pulled roughly 80 amps to make 850 watts whereas the LP pulled 95 amps to almost make 500 watts. At lower volume, the LP still pulled close to 40 amps to make next to no power whereas the Clarion pulled 5 to 10 amps at the same output level.
> 
> Efficiency and power are gained by the NuSkool amps. So I guess the myth still stands.:laugh:


What I was confused about, and I think he might have been confused about also, is why you were comparing power output at 2 ohms vs power output at 8 ohms. That's not a fair fight in anyone's book.


----------



## SHOToonz

eh, give me an old Punch Power 12 and an original Power 1000 any day of the week.


----------



## tnbubba

I dunno
had you rather have a 1980"s model playboy bunny or the new and enhanced 2010 models?


----------



## Wheres The Butta

tnbubba said:


> I dunno
> had you rather have a 1980"s model playboy bunny or the new and enhanced 2010 models?



1980s for sure.

They'll need an updated hairstyle though.


----------



## tnbubba

oops let me update that to LP stds. a 1970s' model?


----------



## Wheres The Butta

tnbubba said:


> oops let me update that to LP stds. a 1970s' model?


that's pushin it. she'd be in her mid 50's....

have we gone sufficiently off topic yet?


----------



## ChrisB

bd5034 said:


> What I was confused about, and I think he might have been confused about also, is why you were comparing power output at 2 ohms vs power output at 8 ohms. That's not a fair fight in anyone's book.


The Linear Power 5002 is a high voltage amplifier and was not rated for 1 ohm stereo operation, therefore 2 ohm mono operation would have probably sent it up in a blaze of glory. The Clarion is a 2 ohm stable monoblock as was just about every other amp I tried on my 13w6v2. That is why it was compared at 8 ohms mono versus 2 ohms mono on everything else. It was to see to it that the Linear Power would live to play another day instead of me roasting an ungodly amount of TO-3s at $3 each. 

In all honesty, the 4 ohm stereo power of the Linear Power or 8 ohm mono power should have been the same, about 500 watts RMS. There was this myth that it would be more "efficient" at 8 ohms mono and have doubled damping factor as spread forth by some of the LP fan boys. Well, it was not any more efficient and I can't hear damping factor. 

In other words, it was a poor choice as a subwoofer amplifier and would have better been suited for midbass or passive component duty because that is where it seemed to shine the best. I also learned the hard way that it is not best to mix old school "SQ" amplifiers with highly inefficient modern drivers. 

Finally, the myth still stands!


----------



## Wheres The Butta

ChrisB said:


> The Linear Power 5002 is a high voltage amplifier and was not rated for 1 ohm stereo operation, therefore 2 ohm mono operation would have probably sent it up in a blaze of glory. The Clarion is a 2 ohm stable monoblock as was just about every other amp I tried on my 13w6v2. That is why it was compared at 8 ohms mono versus 2 ohms mono on everything else. It was to see to it that the Linear Power would live to play another day instead of me roasting an ungodly amount of TO-3s at $3 each.
> 
> In all honesty, the 4 ohm stereo power of the Linear Power or 8 ohm mono power should have been the same, about 500 watts RMS. There was this myth that it would be more "efficient" at 8 ohms mono and have doubled damping factor as spread forth by some of the LP fan boys. Well, it was not any more efficient and I can't hear damping factor.
> 
> In other words, it was a poor choice as a subwoofer amplifier and would have better been suited for midbass or passive component duty because that is where it seemed to shine the best. I also learned the hard way that it is not best to mix old school "SQ" amplifiers with highly inefficient modern drivers.
> 
> Finally, the myth still stands!


 I wonder how the clarion would do at 8 ohms? Not like it really matters, I'm just curious. I understand what you were saying now BTW.


----------



## ChrisB

bd5034 said:


> I wonder how the clarion would do at 8 ohms? Not like it really matters, I'm just curious. I understand what you were saying now BTW.


At 8 ohms mono, I am sure the Clarion DPX1851 would be right about on par with the Alpine PDX-5's sub channel at 2 ohms mono and give me approximately 225 watts RMS. I guess I will test it on dummy loads when I pull it out of the car just to see.


----------



## CSEmoses

forgive my noobishness here, but the obvious question seems to me:

does anyone competing in the national championship SQ competitions use old gear and finish in the top 5 consistently?

... or are SQ competitions limited to gear manuf. in certain years only?

I mean, if the old stuff truly sounds better, wouldnt it dominate the SQ competitions?


----------



## ChrisB

Actually, some guys doing well in USACi with old school gear. Of course, with that typed, I am going to leave it at that because I am trying to be more positive!


----------



## sqshoestring

Good old gear sounds the same, pretty much. It was near perfect and today its just electronically easier and much cheaper to get near perfect. Anything near perfect is much better than our ears. The difference is the (good) old stuff was built to last decades and most new stuff is not. However class D/H will blow away old/any class AB when it comes to efficiency and power use and making big power. You can use whatever you want, they all work. Some old gear will clip nicer if you clip your amps, that is one of the primary reasons I like them. I rather run the amp I need 95% of the time and if I clip it once in a while it does not drill a hole in my eardrum like many new amps will. They can be more forgiving if you will-- if you find one that works that way.

Odds are great that you could buy a set of LP amps and use them for a couple years, then sell them for more than you paid or at least similar prices. Try that with a new amp.


----------



## Miniboom

No news in old stuff being an investment... A '67 Camaro is worth more each year, while a new Honda just drops in value. As long as the old-timers are well kept, they will certainly not lose their value.


----------



## sangellga

Regarding old vs new - Personally I like some of both and despise some of both.

I like the efficiency of my Arc Audio amps. At full bore with the engine at an idle you may, now and then, see the lights dim slightly. Only electrical upgrade was "Big 3" On the other hand I remember running a Hifonics Zeus VI on two M&M Godfather 15s and with dual batteries and 2 runs of 1/0 Welding cable you could be driving down the road at 60mph and watch your headlights dimming in rythm with the music. Plus musically I think the Arcs are devine.

That being said, I truly love listening to a good setup with old school amps as well. RF, Orion, PPI, SoundStream. And I am sure many that read this already know what a fan of M&M Subs I am. To this day I still prefer them musically over most anything else. The primary drawback is power handling. They just will not take the power that newer subs will and the enclosure options are limited. You can go sealed....or sealed. Same goes for some of the old school components. A/D/S, MB Quart, etc, those components did, and still do, sound as good as a lot of the newer gear, much better than most.

I just wish I had stockpiked some of the old school stuff years ago. The NIB OS stuff tends to be a bit pricey!


----------



## JCGator42

I am and always will be a fan of the high-end SQ gear from back in the day, even if it's not better than the new stuff, it is what I learned to build and love music with so my brain makes it sound better regardless of true quality


----------



## STI GUY

Soundstream Reference series are still my favorite amps for mids and tweets. I like the more efficient class D amps for subs. Call me crazy but I like the extra options of todays head units especially watching movies and the touch screen. I still like silk tweeters better than metal ones. You used to be able to get mids that where made with silk and quartz and I think they sounded very rich but couldn't handle the power like some of todays components. I guess IMHO some stuff is better today some isn't.


----------



## FG79

ChrisB said:


> Let's face it, I've seen it rehashed on the forums many times over where someone touts their old school setup as one of the best sounding ever. Whether it was the CD player, subwoofers, components, amplifiers, crossovers, or equalizers; you'd swear that there has not been any innovation since the late 80s.
> 
> So I am going to say it is a MYTH that old school gear was the best ever made and there isn't anything on the current market that can compete with the sound quality of it. Ready, set, discuss...


Two comments:

1) The best car audio products ever made were old school. I and a nice faction of guys feel this way. 

The contributions Nakamichi made to the car audio game were 2nd to none. There are other brands but that's the big one. 

But to me there's something far more important to discuss:

2) ON AVERAGE, new school s*** blows compared to old school. 

Kicker, Rockford Fosgate, Infinity, Kenwood, Sony, etc. used to make legitimate SQ products. You went to ADS, Soundstream, PPI, etc for exceptional products, but it wasn't mandatory.

Back then, the garbage was much less....the bar was much higher for SQ. Amps, subs, speakers, head units, you name it. 

Interestingly enough gear cost more back then than it did now and for good reason. People would like to believe that like cell phone tech, TVs, cars, things get cheaper over time, but good audio pretty much plateaued a long time ago. Audio engineering is a pretty MATURE field, so if Nakamichi charged $800 MSRP for a pair of dome midranges back in 1992, there was a very good reason for it!

There's another issue at stake though....TASTE.

Nowadays the amps (and head units) sound thinner and the speaker sound brighter. The subs also sound boomier.

Somehow, brightness and midrange suckout got confused with "detail", "accuracy" and "speed". Almost without fail in most cases, the "best" speaker line from any given company is always a bit more top end heavy than the 2nd or 3rd tier lines. Not always, but most of the time.

Many modern amps "lay down the watts", but there physical footprint is often too small/light to give the substance. Meanwhile, an old school amp on average does 25-50 wpc...and was bigger.

Most would think that's just obsolete technology, but then you listen to it and it sounds better. 

Rap music emphasized subbass over midbass, and subs started to reflect this market trend....and even worse, "excursion" started to replace cone area, efficiency and reasonable box sizes to make bass. 

You want big bass but you only want it from 2 12s in a 1.0 - 1.5 cubic foot enclosure? Or even better, you have an 18" sub with anything more than a few mm xmax...as if that's not enough, LOL.

I would say of all the categories....subs are the worst of all, esp. from an SQ standpoint. 

So the biggest problem is even IF 2011 engineering can begin to outpace say 1990 engineering (and MARGINALLY at best), the energy is going into the wrong place. 

It pisses me off royally that I have to scour ebay for old school stuff. And as much as I like that gear, sometimes you don't find one in good condition, or it needs servicing, etc. The old school stuff is definitely more high maintenance, and while this is more tolerable in a home setting, it can be annoying in a car setting. 

Car audio today from a manufacturing standpoint is more profitable to make convenient, feature rich gear than make cutting edge SQ masterpieces, at least in the US.

It's not a coincidence that all the best stuff these days is JDM.


----------



## Lanson

FG79 said:


> Two comments:
> 
> 1) The best car audio products ever made were old school. I and a nice faction of guys feel this way.
> 
> The contributions Nakamichi made to the car audio game were 2nd to none. There are other brands but that's the big one.
> 
> But to me there's something far more important to discuss:
> 
> 2) ON AVERAGE, new school s*** blows compared to old school.
> 
> Kicker, Rockford Fosgate, Infinity, Kenwood, Sony, etc. used to make legitimate SQ products. You went to ADS, Soundstream, PPI, etc for exceptional products, but it wasn't mandatory.
> 
> Back then, the garbage was much less....the bar was much higher for SQ. Amps, subs, speakers, head units, you name it.
> 
> Interestingly enough gear cost more back then than it did now and for good reason. People would like to believe that like cell phone tech, TVs, cars, things get cheaper over time, but good audio pretty much plateaued a long time ago. Audio engineering is a pretty MATURE field, so if Nakamichi charged $800 MSRP for a pair of dome midranges back in 1992, there was a very good reason for it!
> 
> There's another issue at stake though....TASTE.
> 
> Nowadays the amps (and head units) sound thinner and the speaker sound brighter. The subs also sound boomier.
> 
> Somehow, brightness and midrange suckout got confused with "detail", "accuracy" and "speed". Almost without fail in most cases, the "best" speaker line from any given company is always a bit more top end heavy than the 2nd or 3rd tier lines. Not always, but most of the time.
> 
> Many modern amps "lay down the watts", but there physical footprint is often too small/light to give the substance. Meanwhile, an old school amp on average does 25-50 wpc...and was bigger.
> 
> Most would think that's just obsolete technology, but then you listen to it and it sounds better.
> 
> Rap music emphasized subbass over midbass, and subs started to reflect this market trend....and even worse, "excursion" started to replace cone area, efficiency and reasonable box sizes to make bass.
> 
> You want big bass but you only want it from 2 12s in a 1.0 - 1.5 cubic foot enclosure? Or even better, you have an 18" sub with anything more than a few mm xmax...as if that's not enough, LOL.
> 
> I would say of all the categories....subs are the worst of all, esp. from an SQ standpoint.
> 
> So the biggest problem is even IF 2011 engineering can begin to outpace say 1990 engineering (and MARGINALLY at best), the energy is going into the wrong place.
> 
> It pisses me off royally that I have to scour ebay for old school stuff. And as much as I like that gear, sometimes you don't find one in good condition, or it needs servicing, etc. The old school stuff is definitely more high maintenance, and while this is more tolerable in a home setting, it can be annoying in a car setting.
> 
> Car audio today from a manufacturing standpoint is more profitable to make convenient, feature rich gear than make cutting edge SQ masterpieces, at least in the US.
> 
> It's not a coincidence that all the best stuff these days is JDM.



puff-puff-pass man, you are hogging the good stuff.

Please God tell me this was all in the form of "You know this is a Myth"...


----------



## DevanTheDude

FG79 said:


> Two comments:
> 
> 1) The best car audio products ever made were old school. I and a nice faction of guys feel this way.
> 
> The contributions Nakamichi made to the car audio game were 2nd to none. There are other brands but that's the big one.
> 
> But to me there's something far more important to discuss:
> 
> 2) ON AVERAGE, new school s*** blows compared to old school.
> 
> Kicker, Rockford Fosgate, Infinity, Kenwood, Sony, etc. used to make legitimate SQ products. You went to ADS, Soundstream, PPI, etc for exceptional products, but it wasn't mandatory.
> 
> Back then, the garbage was much less....the bar was much higher for SQ. Amps, subs, speakers, head units, you name it.
> 
> Interestingly enough gear cost more back then than it did now and for good reason. People would like to believe that like cell phone tech, TVs, cars, things get cheaper over time, but good audio pretty much plateaued a long time ago. Audio engineering is a pretty MATURE field, so if Nakamichi charged $800 MSRP for a pair of dome midranges back in 1992, there was a very good reason for it!
> 
> There's another issue at stake though....TASTE.
> 
> Nowadays the amps (and head units) sound thinner and the speaker sound brighter. The subs also sound boomier.
> 
> Somehow, brightness and midrange suckout got confused with "detail", "accuracy" and "speed". Almost without fail in most cases, the "best" speaker line from any given company is always a bit more top end heavy than the 2nd or 3rd tier lines. Not always, but most of the time.
> 
> Many modern amps "lay down the watts", but there physical footprint is often too small/light to give the substance. Meanwhile, an old school amp on average does 25-50 wpc...and was bigger.
> 
> Most would think that's just obsolete technology, but then you listen to it and it sounds better.
> 
> Rap music emphasized subbass over midbass, and subs started to reflect this market trend....and even worse, "excursion" started to replace cone area, efficiency and reasonable box sizes to make bass.
> 
> You want big bass but you only want it from 2 12s in a 1.0 - 1.5 cubic foot enclosure? Or even better, you have an 18" sub with anything more than a few mm xmax...as if that's not enough, LOL.
> 
> I would say of all the categories....subs are the worst of all, esp. from an SQ standpoint.
> 
> So the biggest problem is even IF 2011 engineering can begin to outpace say 1990 engineering (and MARGINALLY at best), the energy is going into the wrong place.
> 
> It pisses me off royally that I have to scour ebay for old school stuff. And as much as I like that gear, sometimes you don't find one in good condition, or it needs servicing, etc. The old school stuff is definitely more high maintenance, and while this is more tolerable in a home setting, it can be annoying in a car setting.
> 
> Car audio today from a manufacturing standpoint is more profitable to make convenient, feature rich gear than make cutting edge SQ masterpieces, at least in the US.
> 
> It's not a coincidence that all the best stuff these days is JDM.


Couldn't agree more. The best thing about new gear is that when it breaks, you can just throw it away. Not worth getting repaired. At least when you have an old amp repaired, you can bet it will last another 15 years.


----------



## ChrisB

DevanTheDude said:


> Couldn't agree more. The best thing about new gear is that when it breaks, you can just throw it away. Not worth getting repaired. At least when you have an old amp repaired, you can bet it will last another 15 years.


Assuming you can find parts for them. I recently needed some 2N5639 JFETS for an Orion HCCA 225 and Digikey had NONE in stock. I ordered 25 from Mouser just to have spares on hand.

I already needed to look up adequate substitutes for the SMP60N06 transistors in the power supply section.


----------



## sqshoestring

I think you can still make a good system if you look, the cheap pyles I am running are very much like old school IB subs. I don't know if they would take the daily beating I put to old school stuff way back lol, but I've hammered them some and they are fine. Quality is not bad. They were on sale for $39 and free shipping last time I looked (for a 15!), I wanted to get a spare set but want midbass too could not decide lol. 

Simple fact is I'm not going to beat them like I used to, well ok not near as often at least.


----------



## FG79

DevanTheDude said:


> Couldn't agree more. The best thing about new gear is that when it breaks, you can just throw it away. Not worth getting repaired. At least when you have an old amp repaired, you can bet it will last another 15 years.


Yep!

I had to send my PG MS1000 for repair over the summer......flat fee from AAMP of America to fix it was around $230 or so!!

Throw in another 40-50 for shipping and you've got a monster amp under $300. Even if you had to do this ONCE a year, it'd be worth it.

DevanTheDude, like the name....if you wanna live up to the name, complete this sentence:

"The power of the _______"

Just nod if you know it.


----------



## steffanan

finbar said:


> I prefer new gear.
> Low Le subs, 5V RCA output head units, high quality low cost/watt amps, warranty....... the list goes on.
> All that ongoing improvement is just too good to beat.


hey man, you are like only half right. 5v outputs are hard to find now days, and it used to be that EVERY pioneer had true 8 volts out. and costs have gone down with the quality. plus, look at how all pioneers used to have time alignment and 13 band eq's. if you find me a new deck with all of that, i will agree that you are correct. just my opinion on it

by the way, i dont use old head units either, I hate using cd's, and old decks don't take usb drives.


----------



## steffanan

hey guys, well in my opinion, there isnt a right or wrong answer. i love some old amps that i have, because they are tanks, and we can all agree on that. but, on the other hand, do you think the old amps had as good of slew rates, or damping factors? probably not. with time, comes more knowledge, and if there wasnt other factors, new stuff would always be better. those other factors, are that almost NO companies care more about their product than the money. look at pioneer for example. they used to be a company that honestly made the "firsts" of most of our audio equiptment that we use today. can you believe that other than the stage 4 deck, their highest end deck (that isnt video) is like a 270 dollar piece of crap. i still love pioneer, but it seems like them and all other companies have cheapened up.


----------



## chinaonnitrous1

I remember paying for my Clarion 9675z.

I remember trying to decide between several Dead headunits.

Now I find not that much information and the internet is bajillion times larger.


----------



## ChrisB

steffanan said:


> hey guys, well in my opinion, there isnt a right or wrong answer. i love some old amps that i have, because they are tanks, and we can all agree on that. but, on the other hand, do you think the old amps had as good of slew rates, or damping factors? probably not. with time, comes more knowledge, and if there wasnt other factors, new stuff would always be better. those other factors, are that almost NO companies care more about their product than the money. look at pioneer for example. they used to be a company that honestly made the "firsts" of most of our audio equiptment that we use today. can you believe that other than the stage 4 deck, their highest end deck (that isnt video) is like a 270 dollar piece of crap. i still love pioneer, but it seems like them and all other companies have cheapened up.


They have other high end decks BUT they are only available in Japan. I am thinking about asking my cousin to send me a DEH-P940 from their Carrozzeria line when he gets back to Okinawa.


----------



## sqshoestring

steffanan said:


> hey guys, well in my opinion, there isnt a right or wrong answer. i love some old amps that i have, because they are tanks, and we can all agree on that. but, on the other hand, do you think the old amps had as good of slew rates, or damping factors? probably not. with time, comes more knowledge, and if there wasnt other factors, new stuff would always be better. those other factors, are that almost NO companies care more about their product than the money. look at pioneer for example. they used to be a company that honestly made the "firsts" of most of our audio equiptment that we use today. can you believe that other than the stage 4 deck, their highest end deck (that isnt video) is like a 270 dollar piece of crap. i still love pioneer, but it seems like them and all other companies have cheapened up.


You know the old amps, some of them are pretty good...and some were not good at all. I saw some of a certain brand amp I had back in the day that sucked, sold as old school and for way more than the $20 I thought they were worth. I dumped them in no time in the early 90s they were pos yet here they are on ebay sold for over 50 or 75 I forget. I bet you a new pyramid is a better amp, and it might still be the same amp (the guts) pyramid made in the 90s lol. This amp was 2x50rms and I swapped an old alpine 2x40 that just hammered it in every way from quality to output, and most old alpines are not underrated. Had a pyramid that went far louder than either though it was a 2x75, but never ran it on highs to check quality. Today cheap amps are far better sonic quality and power compared to old cheap amps IMO, but they break faster.


----------



## DevanTheDude

steffanan said:


> hey guys, well in my opinion, there isnt a right or wrong answer. i love some old amps that i have, because they are tanks, and we can all agree on that. *but, on the other hand, do you think the old amps had as good of slew rates, or damping factors? probably not*. with time, comes more knowledge, and if there wasnt other factors, new stuff would always be better. those other factors, are that almost NO companies care more about their product than the money. look at pioneer for example. they used to be a company that honestly made the "firsts" of most of our audio equiptment that we use today. can you believe that other than the stage 4 deck, their highest end deck (that isnt video) is like a 270 dollar piece of crap. i still love pioneer, but it seems like them and all other companies have cheapened up.


So, this statement got me thinking. Unfortunately, the slew rate and dampening factor are tough to compare without having all the manufacturers literature. But as a quick example my old MTX Thunder 4320 (1995-96) has a lower THD than *what i presume is* its modern day replacement, the Thunder Elite 604. The 4320 has a way better SNR too. (110db to 76db). I'm betting the 4320 has just as much output, brings just as much *thunder*, and does its job just as well. The only difference I can really see is the new one has a fan and comes with a bass knob. Of course, its chrome and has lots of leds, tons of bling, and even old english writing (really, MTX?) at a cost of 550$ shipped! What sort of "new technology" makes this thing sound better?

I snagged my 4320 for 60$ on Ebay. :rockon: 

*So, for this myth: My old school gear may not be the best, but it sure as hell is a better value!*


----------



## ChrisB

Ahh, but how was the SNR rated in 1995 compared to today? Max power or 1 watt? Gotta love the power of marketing back before there was the CEA.


----------



## jinstall

some of you guys are talking about reliability as a factor, it makes me laugh, to consider that how many guys hearing that it was possible to run a 1/4 ohm to their soundstream references, and now some people are suggesting that new stuff is more rocksteady? come on...

I would certainly say that almost every old school head unit of some value was way better than what's out today. with the exception of video panels, and usb, the old stuff was way better. I find some of the new screens out have very nice sharp images, but sound awful. some of the nicer units out now sound alright, but then you stuff a usb stick in it and it sounds like gold. mind you it'll sound good with high quality files. oh how I await the day that flac becomes a widely compatible file format 

I might also mention, have you HEARD some of the new amps out there? I'm kind of an alpine fan, but I have listened to their v power amps, and they sound brutal... just total garbage. but then the new mtx amps kinda sound nice, but they don't stop humming and making noise! not to mention the utter lack of a heat sink on the new ones... no thanks, I'll stick to what I can dig up old school or bite the bullet and spend the money on some crazy jl or audison or zapco stuff. 

guys, all generations of equipment have their gold and their turds. for the discriminating buyer, it shouldn't be very difficult to distinguish which is which.


----------



## Lanson

How can an amp be "heard" (below clipping) when the CEA-rated THD is ~less than 1%? 

How does driving something at 1/4 ohm have anything to do with reliability?


----------



## jinstall

fourthmeal said:


> How can an amp be "heard" (below clipping) when the CEA-rated THD is ~less than 1%?
> 
> How does driving something at 1/4 ohm have anything to do with reliability?


got a collection of brand new equipment or something? Don't take a forum personal bro, lol.

I didn't say anything about hearing an amp below clipping in relation to thd. I said some of the current amps out there, in fact a lot of them sound like crap. I attribute it to companies making amps more efficient without putting the effort into achieving equivalent sound quality. sure you have a/b class amps out there, but it seems theyre biased for efficiency rather than sound.

have you ever dealt with a soundstream that's been run at 1/4 ohm? Every single one that I've ever come across that's been run that at that impedance has fried. however this was something soundstream advertised as being safe for the amplifier.

at the same time I certainly prefer old amps to new ones, because it seems that almost all that has been improved in the last 20 years has been efficiency and physical dimensions. These companies rying to decide what class of amp they've built has become an alphabetical orgy. what the hell is class f g h a/f g/h???

I'll give you that class d has come a long way, they're now good enough to run speakers on and sound half decent... but a/b is all there is for me if I can help it. even subwoofers. I don't trust the fidelity of d, even if it has improved substantially.


----------



## Lanson

jinstall said:


> got a collection of brand new equipment or something? Don't take a forum personal bro, lol.
> 
> I didn't say anything about hearing an amp below clipping in relation to thd. I said some of the current amps out there, in fact a lot of them sound like crap. I attribute it to companies making amps more efficient without putting the effort into achieving equivalent sound quality. sure you have a/b class amps out there, but it seems theyre biased for efficiency rather than sound.
> 
> have you ever dealt with a soundstream that's been run at 1/4 ohm? Every single one that I've ever come across that's been run that at that impedance has fried. however this was something soundstream advertised as being safe for the amplifier.
> 
> at the same time I certainly prefer old amps to new ones, because it seems that almost all that has been improved in the last 20 years has been efficiency and physical dimensions. These companies rying to decide what class of amp they've built has become an alphabetical orgy. what the hell is class f g h a/f g/h???
> 
> I'll give you that class d has come a long way, they're now good enough to run speakers on and sound half decent... but a/b is all there is for me if I can help it. even subwoofers. I don't trust the fidelity of d, even if it has improved substantially.



No I'm asking a legitimate question and helping dispel myths (the purpose of this thread.)

If THD is below 1% (below clipping point of course), how is the amp audibly different from another?

Do you have the advertisement showing this 1/4 ohm stability?

Class G, and class H have been introduced and there is a hybrid G/H as well. I haven't heard of the rest, probably because they are made up.

Again you speak of fidelity (which I assume you mean how true to the original signal the amp is.) But again I ask, if the amp is producing below 1% THD, are you even hearing it?


----------



## jinstall

fourthmeal said:


> No I'm asking a legitimate question and helping dispel myths (the purpose of this thread.)
> 
> If THD is below 1% (below clipping point of course), how is the amp audibly different from another?
> 
> Do you have the advertisement showing this 1/4 ohm stability?
> 
> Class G, and class H have been introduced and there is a hybrid G/H as well. I haven't heard of the rest, probably because they are made up.
> 
> Again you speak of fidelity (which I assume you mean how true to the original signal the amp is.) But again I ask, if the amp is producing below 1% THD, are you even hearing it?


are you suggesting that listening to amplifiers side by side will not reveal that one sounds better than the other? are you suggesting that 2 amplifiers of the same classification listened to side by side will sound exactly the same regardless of where it was built, and what materials and components were used? If so I think you need to get out of the lab and check some stuff out in a real world environment.

Soundstream amps have a built in high current switch that allow it to be played at severely low ohm loads. They were supposed to be good for up to 1/4 ohm stability. and they were. but run one at 1/4 ohm for a year and see how the amp does by december...

If I made up new amp classes I must have edited the wiki page too, right?
Electronic amplifier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## jinstall

My mistake, it isn't a/f, it's e/f


----------



## jinstall

Angrywhopper said:


> I agree with everything you said!


+1

It's now the job of the installer to make sure that when something aftermarket goes into a vehicle, it looks and functions as good as factory or better. Wowing customers will bring them back. All too many installers seem jaded by the state of the industry. the thing is, when has it not been this way? When has the oem preferred to have their customers install aftermarket equipment?

I dunno... little rant. I face these facts every day, I just ignore them. I do my best, I make my customers happy, because I know I won't be looking for a job next week if I do this.


----------



## fredswain

I never really got into comparing specs on paper because they just don't matter. It's all marketing bs because they know people will compare those numbers. The only thing I have ever cared about was how something actually sounds.

Regardless of time period, there have always been good and bad products. I'm going to limit my examples to a few as the list could seemingly go on forever if I didn't. For a very long time one of the best sounding head units was the old Alpine 7909. It was way ahead of it's time and certainly above the other stuff in the early 90's. By modern standards it skipped easily but from a sound standpoint it was very good. Remember tape players were still outselling cd players back then. In the mid 90's the Eclipse ECD-414, 415, and 416 were tops and I'd still put them up against anything current in terms of sound quaility. I still have my 414. As with everything though these same manufacturers had products that weren't as good. You couldn't pay me to use their amps back then.

In terms of amps, the Punch 45 and 75 and later the 40i, 60i, 100i, 200i, etc were very popular and highly regarded. Too bad they didn't actually sound all that great. The Orion amps killed them in terms of sound quality with the old 225, 250, and 2100 HCCA amps being the tops. For soundoffs though you had to let them warm up as their sound would change until they did. Orion's Cobalt series amps were average but it was the same company. In '97 when Orion released their DEQ-230 EQ, it was the thing to have and to this day it is still my #1 choice for an eq. I had a Rockford symmetry and while it was a fantastic piece due to it's features for the day, it's sound quality wasn't as good. Perfect for their amps!

I have given a few examples of the popular items from the mid 90's. Some were very good and some were so-so. They were all popular and some people still swear by each of them though. Would they stack up against current products? Some would. Some wouldn't. I do think there is alot of current junk out there but I also believe that there is still lots of good product out there.


----------



## sqshoestring

fourthmeal said:


> No I'm asking a legitimate question and helping dispel myths (the purpose of this thread.)
> 
> If THD is below 1% (below clipping point of course), how is the amp audibly different from another?


Just trying to help here....Mostly internal EQ. Lot of new amps are more flat response which does not sound good in a car, but then everyone has an EQ today. A second reason is a lot of people push the amp right to clipping, and many new amps sound nasty there while some old amps are better about it. Also people should note a typical THD curve is lower at greater output, and swings up at the end.


fourthmeal said:


> Do you have the advertisement showing this 1/4 ohm stability?
> 
> Class G, and class H have been introduced and there is a hybrid G/H as well. I haven't heard of the rest, probably because they are made up.
> 
> Again you speak of fidelity (which I assume you mean how true to the original signal the amp is.) But again I ask, if the amp is producing below 1% THD, are you even hearing it?


Sure some old school amps were overbuilt, anyone can look up the capacity of the outputs in question and figure it out. How much heat can the sink dissipate, etc. However this was done mostly for comps and marketing, I knew few people that ran a system daily like that, though some did. The amps were less efficient and ran hot and likely the THD was higher, but that was typically on subs so it didn't matter that much. I never cared because I was not going to run the amp that way. Today's class D sub amps will blow them away in any measure, on the cheap too, for running subs. Some sub amps today can run 1 ohm, how large you think that part of the market is? I don't see everyone buying 1 ohm sub amps but I could be wrong....its the same thing.

G and H are class AB output, but the power supply is modulated to follow demand. When a class AB has full power on the rails and low output it is most inefficient. If you lower the rails to just enough power you get a class G or H, the H is better at doing it the PS is variable not stepped. Class D is different the audio is converted to a pulse modulated signal, much like a variable speed on your cordless drill but way faster. This is because mosfets are very efficient when you switch them on and off, instead of the traditional output that varies its current flow like Class AB.

Below 1% THD, in a car likely not and for subs certainly not.

Most other classes of amps other than AB, D, G, H are marketing or likely used in other fields such as communications. It is common to use class B and others in radio work and networks because the audio quality or range is not needed. Class T is a tripath, a company now gone that made their own system to run a class D full range amp. ICEpower amps today are similar, an amp company can buy their class D components and put them in their amp. It is mostly based on an IC chip and other parts that modulates the outputs and handles feedback which can be more difficult in class D amps.

I don't see how install has changed that much except that factory systems have become a little better and certainly more complex. To counter that you now have various interfaces and processors to deal with them. On the other hand when I installed we did a lot of stuff, much of it was audio but we did everything from radar detectors hidden in headrests to running boards on trucks to KC light bars to cruise controls plus alarms and starters. The other thing that has changed the most is the cost of labor, that really hurts any industry like this. Add to that you can't mark up the product to help cover the costs or people buy elsewhere. I really think installers need to diversify as much as possible to generate more work, that would help unless they are full up with audio every day. You can't afford an install bay unless it has a customer car in it nearly all the time....and it was the same way 20yr ago. Some of the shops here even installed ground effects kits and spoilers/etc. Ultimately what you offer the customer is they pull in, and in a short time they pull out with X installed in there car having done no work lol.


----------



## ryan s

jinstall said:


> some of you guys are talking about reliability as a factor, it makes me laugh, to consider that how many guys hearing that it was possible to run a 1/4 ohm to their soundstream references, and now some people are suggesting that new stuff is more rocksteady? come on...





jinstall said:


> have you ever dealt with a soundstream that's been run at 1/4 ohm? Every single one that I've ever come across that's been run that at that impedance has fried. however this was something soundstream advertised as being safe for the amplifier.




The two statements oppose each other...


----------



## jinstall

"I have given a few examples of the popular items from the mid 90's. Some were very good and some were so-so. They were all popular and some people still swear by each of them though. Would they stack up against current products? Some would. Some wouldn't. I do think there is alot of current junk out there but I also believe that there is still lots of good product out there." 

thanks fred, that's pretty much how I summed up my statement in the first place. Despit my singling out soundstream, I do like their equipment, I just contend that a lot of people used them in a way that was not ideal.

great post sq, I agree with pretty much all of it. I mention install because that's where my experience stems from, that and countless hours worth of gathering product knowledge. I love car audio, but even the best product there is installed incorrectly or for the wrong application will not beat the worst product installed perfectly to do exactly what it was intended to do.

10% product, 90% install. I strive for excellence in my work, and no specific criticism here, but I see a lot of people who don't approach this kind of work the same way. Install hasn't changed much, but the people who do it seem to have changed.

I'm still not sure why thd was brought up in the first place. sure, almost all amps out nowadays if not all of them have below 1% thd, but not all of them use them same power supply, not all of them use the same capacitors, with the same values, amps don't all use the same gauge of wire internally, nor the same resistors nor output stages nor mainboards not to mention the arrangement of these components for efficiency reasons... how can any of them sound exactly the same??? based on thd alone? are you serious?

that's like saying my audison 1.500 amp that sold for 3500 dollars sounds exactly the same as a power acoustik...


----------



## jinstall

ryan s said:


> The two statements oppose each other...


sorry man, it's all text, it must not have come out the way it was intended. I was speaking against soundstream for reliability the whole time. I've seen posts speculating that older equipment is so much more rock solid, but what I meant to say is that they're really the same, only different 

i don't think new or old makes much difference in terms of reliability. It was an attempt to say that older amps break too, that's really all.

given the choice I would probably either get something old school, or something new with a higher price tag. at least if a quality old school amp breaks it's worth getting repaired if you can get the parts.


----------



## ryan s

jinstall said:


> I'm still not sure why thd was brought up in the first place. sure, almost all amps out nowadays if not all of them have below 1% thd, but not all of them use them same power supply, not all of them use the same capacitors, with the same values, amps don't all use the same gauge of wire internally, nor the same resistors nor output stages nor mainboards not to mention the arrangement of these components for efficiency reasons... how can any of them sound exactly the same??? based on thd alone? are you serious?
> 
> that's like saying my audison 1.500 amp that sold for 3500 dollars sounds exactly the same as a power acoustik...


Aside from discussing "The Best SQ Sub" this is the one that's talked about most around here :laugh:

In essence, it goes: "If it measures the same, it sounds the same." If $200 amp A measures 1% THD + N (10-40kHz +/- .5dB) and $600 amp B measures 1% THD + N (10-40kHz +/- .5dB), there is no magic SQ dust sprinkled in the more expensive amp with better caps, resistors, etc. That's assuming gain is set comparably and all that. I know I'm missing a bunch of parameters but this post is already too long :laugh:

Also in short:
-A watt is a watt...there is no "SQ watt" 
-Once all this is put in the car, any sound differences are naught
-Your drivers make more distortion than everything in the signal chain, combined

The whole argument stems from the ascertation that yes, one *can *make a Power Acoutik amp sound like an Audison.


jinstall said:


> sorry man, it's all text, it must not have come out the way it was intended. I was speaking against soundstream for reliability the whole time. I've seen posts speculating that older equipment is so much more rock solid, but what I meant to say is that they're really the same, only different
> 
> i don't think new or old makes much difference in terms of reliability. It was an attempt to say that older amps break too, that's really all.
> 
> given the choice I would probably either get something old school, or something new with a higher price tag. at least if a quality old school amp breaks it's worth getting repaired if you can get the parts.


Ahh, ok. After seeing the second post, I figured you were alluding to the "Smokestream" reputation


----------



## Chaos

So much of the substance of this topic is getting lost somewhere in between subjective individual experiences and the broader market-based perspective of the autosound industry as it stands today.

Fact is, one of the biggest differences in mobile audio these days is that power is far less expensive than it was in the past. 

Yes, there were some overbuilt amplifier designs many years ago that sound very good to this day, and they are still doing it because they were built to last. As it has been pointed out in this thread, that in of itself is as much of a contributing factor as to why you don't see that so much anymore as the economy in general is.

Whether we are talking about an expensive high-fidelity product that's service life is measured in decades, or cheap, mass-produced, easily replaceable amps with generous headroom for the masses there is a certain value in either approach. 

Thanks to the proliferation of e-commerce, you can have either or both - your choice. 



Aftermarket head units have simply changed with the times. 

Used to be, you replaced your stock radio with an aftermarket unit that provided significant improvements in SQ and build quality because that's what a very narrowly focused market wanted to buy.

Now, the market is much more diverse, and there is more money to be made on features that would have been considered frivolous bells & whistles in the past. 

Profitability in 2011 vs. 1991 = Quantity over Quality FTW. 

If you still yearn for the best quality possible, there is (finally!) no shortage of affordable DSP solutions for us to choose from, regardless of the source. (Granted, this assumes the application of CD-quality or loss-less files, but you see the point.)



Speaker technology hasn't really changed all that much, but if newer & more effective manufacturing techniques can provide me with a driver that sounds as good as anything I could buy in another century and yet costs half as much, which one do you think I'll buy?

Before I found this site, I had virtually no idea what Klippel was actually good for in the real world, let alone studied FR plots before buying a midrange or gave much thought to system-wide phase alignment. 

Does that mean a damn thing to the average consumer who comes into an autosound shop looking to replace blown OEM speakers? Of course not. At this point, we're just thankful that they came to us, and not one of the alternatives.




Subwoofers, however, have certainly changed the most. 

When all of us old-farts were driving around in enormous land yachts and gas money was pocket change, we could care less if we used 5 cubic feet for a pair of 12's that cost $200 each and sounded more like flatulence than actual drum-beats. That's just the way it was.

Now, we want SQ to compliment our craving for SPL, and we want it to fit into our minivans & SUVs with enough space left over to haul groceries or the kid's sports equipment without putting a hole though our speaker cones and dragging down our MPG on a daily basis.

Hence, hideously inefficient low-distortion motors attached to super-tough cones that handle a lot of power in exceptionally small enclosures. It's no wonder that so many enthusiasts became obsessed with excursion for a while there - and sometimes it is still just what we need. 

Other times though, you just can't top the sound of a nice efficient subwoofer that gets loud enough to make your ears bleed on a 100 watt amp. 

Yeah, those were the days. Better off in the past where they belong though, for the most part at least, IMHO. 

[/rant]


----------



## jinstall

ryan s said:


> Aside from discussing "The Best SQ Sub" this is the one that's talked about most around here :laugh:
> 
> In essence, it goes: "If it measures the same, it sounds the same." If $200 amp A measures 1% THD + N (10-40kHz +/- .5dB) and $600 amp B measures 1% THD + N (10-40kHz +/- .5dB), there is no magic SQ dust sprinkled in the more expensive amp with better caps, resistors, etc. That's assuming gain is set comparably and all that. I know I'm missing a bunch of parameters but this post is already too long :laugh:
> 
> Also in short:
> -A watt is a watt...there is no "SQ watt"
> -Once all this is put in the car, any sound differences are naught
> -Your drivers make more distortion than everything in the signal chain, combined
> 
> The whole argument stems from the ascertation that yes, one *can *make a Power Acoutik amp sound like an Audison.
> QUOTE]
> 
> i still contend that side by side the quality of components used makes a big difference. I see what you're saying, but when an amplifier is engineered to be high power with high distortion, and amp b is made for high power, high fidelity, low distortion, I dunno... to me what you're saying sounds like if you switch tubes in a valve amp, it won't sound any different, yet no two musicians sound exactly alike, not in terms of the sound of their equipment (which i'm trying to address).
> 
> a randall doesnt sound like a marshall, a fender doesnt sound like an orange, a mesa doesn't sound like a peavey. yet all of these manufacturers build tube amplifiers similar in power for the same purpose... is there something I'm missing?


----------



## Lanson

> I'm still not sure why thd was brought up in the first place. sure, almost all amps out nowadays if not all of them have below 1% thd, but not all of them use them same power supply, not all of them use the same capacitors, with the same values, amps don't all use the same gauge of wire internally, nor the same resistors nor output stages nor mainboards not to mention the arrangement of these components for efficiency reasons... how can any of them sound exactly the same??? based on thd alone? are you serious?


Actually that is exactly what I'm saying.

In the world of home audio, it has been tested and proven that, as long as a system is not driven to clipping at any stage of the signal chain, that the highest-end systems sound nearly identical to a standard inexpensive receiver. In fact, abx testing has dispelled so many myths about audio that, if people actually read and understood the results of the studies, many audio-based companies would go out of business overnight (my presumption.)

Edit: dug through all my links and found the one you need to see regarding this:

http://www.bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf


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## Robb

No one mentioned Zapco Studio or Z series amps here... :surprised:

At least the 7909 was mentioned. 
I prefer the old school stuff.


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## tnbubba

not that stoopid clark idiot again....abx testing has been proven medically, pshycologically and statistically not
be accurate for audio purposes. My ex wife has the PHD to prove it. Again when someone can tell us exactly how the brain works
then we can design a test to see if all amplifiers sound the same. Until then we hear what we hear.


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## sqshoestring

tnbubba said:


> not that stoopid clark idiot again....abx testing has been proven medically, pshycologically and statistically not
> be accurate for audio purposes. My ex wife has the PHD to prove it. Again when someone can tell us exactly how the brain works
> then we can design a test to see if all amplifiers sound the same. Until then we hear what we hear.


Well if we can't tell the difference/sameness then who cares what amp is used.


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## Chaos

sqshoestring said:


> Well if we can't tell the difference then who cares what amp is used.


psycho-acoustics FTW?


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## tnbubba

that's the point of people sayingamps sound the same. might as well by a PYLE of C***

people like that have done as more to hurt the industry as the snake oil salesmen.

I mean if they is no difference in sound why build a quality amp..right?

I mean if I was an audio products designer why bother to R&D and innovate and build something nice? Hey alot of the cost is limited production runs(compared to say a Sony hone theater receiver) and alot of R&D time and effort that has to be recovered over a few thousand units. Thanks Richard "idiot" Clark for helping to dumb down our industry!

back to the thread..I like newer speakers.. some old some new head units wish I could get USB on old nak or denon deck,.. and I like old skool and some newer amps. old skool esp if they are updated..


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## sqshoestring

tnbubba said:


> that's the point of people sayingamps sound the same. might as well by a PYLE of C***
> 
> people like that have done as more to hurt the industry as the snake oil salesmen.
> 
> I mean if they is no difference in sound why build a quality amp..right?
> 
> I mean if I was an audio products designer why bother to R&D and innovate and build something nice? Hey alot of the cost is limited production runs(compared to say a Sony hone theater receiver) and alot of R&D time and effort that has to be recovered over a few thousand units. Thanks Richard "idiot" Clark for helping to dumb down our industry!
> 
> back to the thread..I like newer speakers.. some old some new head units wish I could get USB on old nak or denon deck,.. and I like old skool and some newer amps. old skool esp if they are updated..


The point of the Clark test was to show that the electrical function of any amp above a base quality could reproduce the signal with more precision than a human can hear. They could way back then, today its child's play we know a lot about electricity. That does not mean they don't sound different because they have EQ built in, or sound different when someone clips the amp in a car. It also says nothing about how fast the amp will blow up, if the gains will get dust in them or break off, if it will overheat in your install, how much it will be worth in 10 years or next year, or a bunch of other things.

Amps are a difficult retail item because they are a commodity now; easy for anyone to make so the race is now to make them cheaper and smaller/etc., just like a toaster....at least for the mass market it is. There is nothing else to innovate really, though that is not entirely true you don't see many full DSP amps. Class D can do full optical/digital all the way to the outputs. On the other hand you can't hear RCA cords either.

My pyle subs sound great, as good as old school subs I ran. I'm not beating the piss out of them either and most woofers will perform at lower power levels/lower xmax so they work for my install. But I am using an alpine class D on them. I would try a pyle for fun but I have not seen a cheap class D pyle amp and I have enough other amps to try anyway.


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## Lanson

tnbubba said:


> not that stoopid clark idiot again....abx testing has been proven medically, pshycologically and statistically not
> be accurate for audio purposes. My ex wife has the PHD to prove it. Again when someone can tell us exactly how the brain works
> then we can design a test to see if all amplifiers sound the same. Until then we hear what we hear.


LOL!

If you can't tell the difference, then why spend the money? And keep in mind, I own a very expensive, high end amp, and I own cheap amps as well. I've played this game.

Your senses make the experience real. If you can't see the amp, you only have your ears (AS IT SHOULD BE), and so if you can't hear the difference, then why the hell should you bother spending so damn much? To line the pockets of those who think they CAN hear the difference?


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## Lanson

You guys make me want to personally compete with "**** brands"


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## ryan s

jinstall said:


> i still contend that side by side the quality of components used makes a big difference. I see what you're saying, but when an amplifier is engineered to be high power with high distortion, and amp b is made for high power, high fidelity, low distortion, I dunno... to me what you're saying sounds like if you switch tubes in a valve amp, it won't sound any different, yet no two musicians sound exactly alike, not in terms of the sound of their equipment (which i'm trying to address).
> 
> a randall doesnt sound like a marshall, a fender doesnt sound like an orange, a mesa doesn't sound like a peavey. yet all of these manufacturers build tube amplifiers similar in power for the same purpose... is there something I'm missing?


Gain bias?

For what it's worth, I had tube amps in my car. Different tubes didn't sound different to me. Even the tube amps themselves didn't sound different than a regular old A/B amp. I'll be the first to admit I haven't bothered to make two amps "sound the same" but in the same vain, I don't espouse "amp brand X sounds Y."

I'm using what would be considered crap amps...oh well 


tnbubba said:


> I mean if I was an audio products designer why bother to R&D and innovate and build something nice? Hey alot of the cost is limited production runs(compared to say a Sony hone theater receiver) and alot of R&D time and effort that has to be recovered over a few thousand units. Thanks Richard "idiot" Clark for helping to dumb down our industry!


If you think it's purely his fault (or even that he had a major role in where the car audio industry headed--how many enthusiasts would even know what the "Richard Clark Amp Challenge" is? How many audio shop workers/owners would know?), it's time to pull your head out of the sand.


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## Lanson

Its funny because I referenced material from David Clark not RC. But because you have your blinders on or some preconceived notion, you refuse to acknowledge.

Interesting. We talk about psycho-acoustics but there is also a lot about the ego here. "My system HAS to sound better because it contains better ****!"

The Emperor has no clothes.


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## Chaos

fourthmeal said:


> Interesting. We talk about psycho-acoustics but there is also a lot about the ego here. "My system HAS to sound better because it contains better ****!"


And that is what this topic always comes down to. 

Nobody wants to accept that they "wasted money" on more expensive equipment, so naturally, cheaper is automatically inferior.

To me, this hobby isn't just about SQ at any cost - that's what competitions are for.

I would rather spend what I need to for gear that does what I want, fits where I want it to, and sounds better than whatever I tried last time.


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## sqshoestring

fourthmeal said:


> You guys make me want to personally compete with "**** brands"


I'd love to, but hardly have time to swap stuff in my car. Cover it all up full stealth, it would be funny when the cat got let out of the bag. You would still have issues; cheap speakers you have to sift through to find something good. Cheap equipment can have other problems like electrical noise and breakage, the HU and processors may not be up to snuff. But it would be fun I am sure it could be done. You would have to get your hands on a lot of stuff and test it.

Expensive equipment usually is better (not always), but if its an amp odds are it is better in ways not related to non-clipping sonic quality characteristics you can hear.


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## Lanson

Chaos said:


> And that is what this topic always comes down to.
> 
> Nobody wants to accept that they "wasted money" on more expensive equipment, so naturally, cheaper is automatically inferior.
> 
> To me, this hobby isn't just about SQ at any cost - that's what competitions are for.
> 
> I would rather spend what I need to for gear that does what I want, fits where I want it to, and sounds better than whatever I tried last time.



Exactly, DIY by default means "Do It Yourself" which usually implies the effort of saving money over a "pro" by finding a way to do it by yourself. The end result is quality up to the par of your skill and effort, and that can vary widely just like it can doing home improvement. 

To those who are trumping that a high end brand does better than a cheaper one, watch an Acura commercial or two. You know the ones...


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## ChrisB

Chaos said:


> I would rather spend what I need to for gear that does what I want, *fits where I want it to*, and sounds better than whatever I tried last time.


Meh, don't even get me started on fitting where I want it to. If you ever tried to shoehorn amplifiers and subwoofers into the trunk of the 95+ Mustang, you'd know the pain I am going through with my 2006 right now. Unless I manage to calm down, I feel a HUGE "for sale" thread coming on!


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## Lanson

ChrisB said:


> Meh, don't even get me started on fitting where I want it to. If you ever tried to shoehorn amplifiers and subwoofers into the trunk of the 95+ Mustang, you'd know the pain I am going through with my 2006 right now. Unless I manage to calm down, I feel a HUGE "for sale" thread coming on!


Oh boo hoo, try doing it in the convertible Mustang! ha.


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## ChrisB

fourthmeal said:


> Oh boo hoo, try doing it in the convertible Mustang! ha.


Tell me where you would have installed the 25 to Life Power 1000 that I first started out with while keeping the spare and usable trunk space.


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## tnbubba

Look david..richard , who cares ( sorry no disrespect to David. I have met the man) my point is...(sorry I read that article moons ago).,. his test is invalid(not large enough sample, not qualified participants, etc etc etc).. and doesn't prove anything..again.. we have learned psychologically and statistically(because we have learned more about auditory memory) that ABX testing is not valid in these applications.. his test didn't prove squat.. I do not have on blinders as you call it. I am a dual degreed engineer and very open minded.. However.. explain this.. in abx pharmaceutical testing why some people cure themselves when given a placebo!
and I'm not talking about subjective stuff like depression, I'm talking about stuff like confirmed infectious diseases.(you know what they do in this case?) if it doesn't fit the statistical model so they throw it out>>LMAO!( I know I worked for the whores)
AB testing to pick differences is marginally at best..I won't rehash a 256 page PHD study the my ex wife did on psychologically and testing.. but in involved audio, and stress and a host of other stuff that people get abx tested for and basically said some of it does not prove anything. I was asked to leave a discussion with a few folks at CES 2000 for bringing up this study. Why because it was bad for business!!! As long as there are arguments abotu products.. testing it generates interest and people get sucked into to buying ****! Let me summerize her PHD and some other studies related to this matter. Most peoples Auditory Memory is not long enough to do accurate ABX testing with reliable results. Now to do a test are you gonna subject every person to a MRI auditory scan to measure their auditory memory response.. at say $10k a person? Now her PHD did say that In some cases auditory memory was long enough,again In some people,to do accurate AB comparisons. Her other PHD thesis's dealt with stress related testing and induced errors. audio was only a small fraction of some 200+ pages she wrote!


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## tnbubba

man I miss my old HK CA60 and carver amp combo.. blew the **** out of alot of ADS and AR speakers..LOL


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## ryan s

tnbubba said:


> Look david..richard , who cares ( sorry no disrespect to David. I have met the man) my point is...(sorry I read that article moons ago).,. his test is invalid(not large enough sample, not qualified participants, etc etc etc).. and doesn't prove anything..again.. we have learned psychologically and statistically(because we have learned more about auditory memory) that ABX testing is not valid in these applications.. his test didn't prove squat.. I do not have on blinders as you call it. I am a dual degreed engineer and very open minded.. However.. explain this.. in abx pharmaceutical testing why some people cure themselves when given a placebo!
> and I'm not talking about subjective stuff like depression, I'm talking about stuff like confirmed infectious diseases.(you know what they do in this case?) if it doesn't fit the statistical model so they throw it out>>LMAO!( I know I worked for the whores)
> AB testing to pick differences is marginally at best..I won't rehash a 256 page PHD study the my ex wife did on psychologically and testing.. but in involved audio, and stress and a host of other stuff that people get abx tested for and basically said some of it does not prove anything. I was asked to leave a discussion with a few folks at CES 2000 for bringing up this study. Why because it was bad for business!!! As long as there are arguments abotu products.. testing it generates interest and people get sucked into to buying ****! Let me summerize her PHD and some other studies related to this matter. Most peoples Auditory Memory is not long enough to do accurate ABX testing with reliable results. Now to do a test are you gonna subject every person to a MRI auditory scan to measure their auditory memory response.. at say $10k a person? Now her PHD did say that In some cases auditory memory was long enough,again In some people,to do accurate AB comparisons. Her other PHD thesis's dealt with stress related testing and induced errors. audio was only a small fraction of some 200+ pages she wrote!


Enter key...it's within easy reach of your right pinky :worried:

Let's flip the equation a little. You've mentioned this PhD study multiple times, referencing that people have a short auditory memory...even having problems remembering how amp A sounded when amp B is flipped on (with a switch, like a light). 

Question: If A to B auditory testing is flawed, how do people have a memory of amp brand A sounding better than amp brand B? 

Better yet: If auditory memory is so short, how can people compare the sound between brand A and brand B, across the board? All the time, it's "Audison sounds warm" and "Zuki sounds clean" as though every amp they've ever made can/does sound the same _*and *_people can quantify the difference.

It would be like saying "I have a terrible short-term memory, but my long-term is fantastic." Information lives in your short-term memory first, where it's either discarded or moved into the long-term memory. If you misplace your cell phone today, can you go back to, say, when you lost it 11 times ago? Unless it was memorable, like leaving it on the roof of your car and driving off, probably not. Tell me the story of when you couldn't find your keys in March 2001. Probably can't do it, right? 

But I'm sure you know that because your ex-wife did a study on memory. That sounds even funnier when I say it :laugh:


----------



## Lanson

Regarding pharmaceuticals, the mind is extremely powerful and can cure diseases on its own accord. Its about as powerful here as it can be when trying to convince us that we spent money for a good reason.

Perception of reality IS reality to us. 

But once the labels are removed, and all we have is the sound, THAT'S WHAT MATTERS. If you can't hear a difference, or more importantly you cannot pick which one is "better" to you, then this should be the end of it.

Take two amps, put them in unmarked boxes, and hook them up however you want. If you don't know what is in the box, then all you have left is what sound it produces. Can you tell the difference?



tnbubba said:


> Look david..richard , who cares ( sorry no disrespect to David. I have met the man) my point is...(sorry I read that article moons ago).,. his test is invalid(not large enough sample, not qualified participants, etc etc etc).. and doesn't prove anything..again.. we have learned psychologically and statistically(because we have learned more about auditory memory) that ABX testing is not valid in these applications.. his test didn't prove squat.. I do not have on blinders as you call it. I am a dual degreed engineer and very open minded.. However.. explain this.. in abx pharmaceutical testing why some people cure themselves when given a placebo!
> and I'm not talking about subjective stuff like depression, I'm talking about stuff like confirmed infectious diseases.(you know what they do in this case?) if it doesn't fit the statistical model so they throw it out>>LMAO!( I know I worked for the whores)
> AB testing to pick differences is marginally at best..I won't rehash a 256 page PHD study the my ex wife did on psychologically and testing.. but in involved audio, and stress and a host of other stuff that people get abx tested for and basically said some of it does not prove anything. I was asked to leave a discussion with a few folks at CES 2000 for bringing up this study. Why because it was bad for business!!! As long as there are arguments abotu products.. testing it generates interest and people get sucked into to buying ****! Let me summerize her PHD and some other studies related to this matter. Most peoples Auditory Memory is not long enough to do accurate ABX testing with reliable results. Now to do a test are you gonna subject every person to a MRI auditory scan to measure their auditory memory response.. at say $10k a person? Now her PHD did say that In some cases auditory memory was long enough,again In some people,to do accurate AB comparisons. Her other PHD thesis's dealt with stress related testing and induced errors. audio was only a small fraction of some 200+ pages she wrote!


----------



## RongGe

fourthmeal said:


> Take two amps, put them in unmarked boxes, and hook them up however you want. If you don't know what is in the box, then all you have left is what sound it produces. Can you tell the difference?


Old school gear is the best and will have its own "sound". As a result, a trained ear can tell the difference. This same person can go sit in 200 cars and easily pick out any of car that uses old school gear in a blind fold test.



I guess I am deaf because I can't identify them without my eyes.


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## Lanson

RongGe said:


> Old school gear is the best and will have its own "sound". As a result, a trained ear can tell the difference. This same person can go sit in 200 cars and easily pick out any of car that uses old school gear in a blind fold test.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I am deaf because I can't identify them without my eyes.



Was this a joke or were you being serious?


----------



## tnbubba

auditory memory when doing abx testing is totally different from "long term memory" related to physical occurances.

Her point and others is/was (and brain MRI scans have shown) that that type of memory is very short..
like milliseconds in some people to maybe a second or two and a good day..I don't have the raw data in front of me but I know she got it from MI( when she was working for GM and some form one of the CA universities.)
ok so a zuki sounds warm..prove it in abx test.. that's the point.. the testing is flawed for that type of comparison. hell your visual memory is many times longer that your auditory.. get 3 red flash cards, two the same one slightly different) and you do abx test to tell which as which and I guarentee you wont get 10 out of 10.


----------



## Lanson

I would say that if I give you a black box amp with X internals, and a black box amp with Y internals, you can take ALL THE TIME YOU NEED as long as you don't clip the amp, and you will not be able to tell me which one is which.


----------



## codycr6

ryan s said:


> Why are you totally ignoring (and absolving) an entire industry of wrongdoing? I thought businesses could regulate themselves? Big Business only has the consumer in mind and wants to give us the best deal on the best products...they won't take advantage of people to pad their bottom line [sarcasm].
> 
> Why are people still on about "kids these days" being spoiled...as if the "magical" car audio period of the early 90s was free of spoiled kids? Wasn't there a recession in 1991? And 1995?
> 
> Tech gets cheaper to make as the years go by. We expect stuff to get cheaper as time goes on. Quality is usually expensive. Car audio is a niche, with "EssQue" a *very *small part of it "these days."
> 
> Back on topic, it's ironic how nostalgia works. How many people love their Chinese-made iPhones but secretly yearn for the "good old days" with a StarTac? Lose your unlimited minutes, texts, and data for $70 month for $1/minute rates?
> 
> Oh and it's 1994 all over again, what's a text? :laugh:
> 
> Who turns up their nose at a modern laptop for an Apple Newton?
> 
> Who here has a cassette player in their car?
> 
> Who here has a floppy drive in their computer? Just go look for a computer with one  (I have one to load my RAID driver but I haven't used it in years)
> 
> 
> 
> "They don't make em like they used to" isn't always a bad thing. True for car audio.


I had that phone!:laugh:


----------



## Lanson

I had an Apple Newton!


----------



## sqshoestring

I can hear the differences between some amps, but it is usually EQ internal to the amp and/or the clipping characteristics. However I think it is more of a learned ability as well as how good your tonal perception is. There is always the stereo sales guy that can walk up to a flat 31 band and set it in a few minutes and its very close to ideal. I can listen to songs I have heard hundreds of times and hear the differences with system changes, be it amp or driver or EQ....if there is a noticeable difference. But I've done it a long time and know my car system well, and I listen to it; its not a noise maker. I think you develop a sense of how it sounds so when you change something you notice mostly the change in that, then you get the "its warmer" (because it has more bass/midbass or less high midrange/etc) descriptions. But your (at least my) hearing does evolve with sound, many times I have had the EQ set and if it is not far off my hearing becomes accustomed to it....until I compare it with something else.

I would say hearing a brief non-familiar sound and then later matching that sound from memory is going to be difficult at best. But hearing a familiar sound/song is different. You know what happens when someone else has the same phone ring as you. But if one picked a random ring and later said what ring out of similar rings was it, most people would have a hard time picking.


----------



## Lanson

sqshoestring said:


> I can hear the differences between some amps, but it is usually EQ internal to the amp and/or the clipping characteristics. However I think it is more of a learned ability as well as how good your tonal perception is. There is always the stereo sales guy that can walk up to a flat 31 band and set it in a few minutes and its very close to ideal. I can listen to songs I have heard hundreds of times and hear the differences with system changes, be it amp or driver or EQ....if there is a noticeable difference. But I've done it a long time and know my car system well, and I listen to it; its not a noise maker. I think you develop a sense of how it sounds so when you change something you notice mostly the change in that, then you get the "its warmer" (because it has more bass/midbass or less high midrange/etc) descriptions. But your (at least my) hearing does evolve with sound, many times I have had the EQ set and if it is not far off my hearing becomes accustomed to it....until I compare it with something else.
> 
> I would say hearing a brief non-familiar sound and then later matching that sound from memory is going to be difficult at best. But hearing a familiar sound/song is different. You know what happens when someone else has the same phone ring as you. But if one picked a random ring and later said what ring out of similar rings was it, most people would have a hard time picking.



Yes exactly, it is all Psychoacoustics at its best.

I have no problem using less-than awesome brands of amps, just give me a good EQ and enough power from those amps, and I'm happy.


----------



## SoulFly

this thread brought back many fun memories of HS. i remember vividly systems i could hear for blocks away with what was basically a cheap system with what knowlege CarAudio magazines put out i guess. Nowadays, i don't hear it as much in my area but its not as popular i guess.

I have my oldschool Punch 60ix from 1993. its actual output i think is like 210 watts bridged @ 4ohms costing $399 back then and its really small considering that until very recently, most amps of this rating are larger like my Alpine 50wx 2 is a few inches larger yet puts out a bit less...does anyone really know why?
i assume its cause the old ones had less features?
Side by side, i cannot really tell too many differences other than my Punch amp has that turn on pop and a constant "hiss" in the highs, gets much hotter and seems more prone to ground noises. the newer cheap Alpine overall has a cleaner quality to it and barely gets warm.

I think modern amps are much better and their finally starting to get smaller than some of the oldschool amps.
However, some or many of these Class D amps, screw with your radio reception or can at least. That's why i chose MTX Elite cause they advertise no interference but i think it does a little still, not as bad as my Punch 600.1bd though. i couldn't pick up crap when it kicked on.


----------



## sqshoestring

RF kept all their old amps on the smaller side, also tends to run hotter. Some of the old alpines are some of the best amps I've heard IMO, problem is few of them put out a lot of power. Sometimes it depends on what you use them for as well. One I have is so old it only has a DIN lol, but I have some not quite that old to try like a 3555, mrv 757 and 407. Sometimes a different amp works better depending on the install. I ran a lot of late 80s amps that had turn on pop and similar issues, they seemed to do better with that in the 90s....in general as the better amps didn't do it. Oh I have a Nak pa304 to try too I forgot about that one.


----------



## Jonny Hotnuts

There are some really good amps being made today. That being said there is an overwhelming amount pile of crap amps/speakers being made today also. 

It was MUCH harder to find a POS amp back in the 90's. Much of the stuff was really pretty good and most was exceptional. 

I will say however......

For the money, you can buy a far superior OS amp used then what you can get new *unless* you spend substantial amounts of money. 

For instance:

Lets say you want an amp to drive the front stage. Take an amp like a A/D/S/ PQ20. Originally sold for 750-800$ can be purchased all day for less then 200$ but to buy an amp made today that has the same SQ you will be well into 1K+$. 

Clearly with advancements made in power supplies its easier to get a 2000 watt amp and a new one likely wont draw 130 amps. For high watt sub amps....I gotta say NON CHINA new school. 

For dollar per SQ....high end old school. 

Again amps like Critical Mass, Audison, McIntosh, Focal, TRU ect....very cool and I am sure sound tits; but your gonna pay for them. (as a collector I own a few of these). 


ALSO......


Ask yourself what the new amps made today will be worth in 15 years.
Makes ya think....

~JH


----------



## Sarthos

Old school amps are great power and SQ for the money... Only one problem, parts do wear out no matter how well they were made. So an old amp will need refurbishment or at least the caps to be replaced eventually. So you have to consider the hassle of that when you pick an old school amp, but even with the cost of repairs it's generally worth it


----------



## SoulFly

Jonny Hotnuts said:


> There are some really good amps being made today. That being said there is an overwhelming amount pile of crap amps/speakers being made today also.
> 
> It was MUCH harder to find a POS amp back in the 90's. Much of the stuff was really pretty good and most was exceptional.
> 
> 
> ~JH


I disagree. It was the same, you could find plenty of "cheap" amps in the late 80's and 90's at any store. Pyramid,Boss,Jensen..etc were brand known for making cheaper amps/speakers and over rating them, their still around and today those brands make amps that technically are superior to their 90's counterparts.
"POS" is a bit opinionated but they were in vast supply back then just as they are now, though today they have far more features per dollar.

I was in HS in the early 90's. i remember seeing several top shelf amps like RF, Orion that friends had that would lose channels, over heat or some other issue. I remember fixing a Punch 45 that had a gap in its internal ground on the circuit board for whatever reason and was a pretty common issue of them not working, but easy to fix. From taking various old amps apart, i don't often see any particular part that was more expensive than any other brand, mostly the price was relative to actual rms output and any other features added. Few cheap amps had built in crossovers..etc while the brand ones did and thats the main differences.
Oldschool amps were also more easily prone to noises, shorts, thermal issues that now most all todays amps have protections for as a standard.


----------



## drumcrusher

i tend to use old school amps for the same reason i like old cars. they are just cooler, and not everybody and their mom owns them. a new vette will smoke an older one in a race, but i'd take a '69 stingray any day of the week over a new one.
that being said, i doubt i could tell the difference between the twos sound if i was driving down the road.


----------



## JAX

I will take a old ass ADCOM over anything you can sell me for same price today. they were made better period. if you have used a properly working one you know why I say that. and why I am so happy to get one again.

look at home audio fanatics. they love the old vintage stuff. it sounds better.

not saying its true across the board but there are differences in some amps from then and now and technology hasnt necessarily made them better.

if makers today were spending the same kind of money now to make an amp as they used to one can only imagine the kind of stuff they would make.

the 6 channel zed is a rare case of new with build like old but with new tech. havnt heard one but its unique with its power and flexability


----------



## ChrisB

JAX said:


> the 6 channel zed is a rare case of new with build like old but with new tech. havnt heard one but its unique with its power and flexability


You hit the nail on the head with this one. The initial offerings had a bad turn-on/off pop, shimmed end plates because the circuit board was too big for the heat sink, and caused RFI noise. That totally reminds me of old school amplifiers.:laugh:


----------



## JAX

ChrisB said:


> You hit the nail on the head with this one. The initial offerings had a bad turn-on/off pop, shimmed end plates because the circuit board was too big for the heat sink, and caused RFI noise. That totally reminds me of old school amplifiers.:laugh:


Have you seen what he has coming next? Check out the new lines. If he can pull them off properly without quality control issues then he should have some cool amps. 

How can anyone not like a amp named "Juggernaut"?


----------



## ChrisB

JAX said:


> Have you seen what he has coming next? Check out the new lines. If he can pull them off properly without quality control issues then he should have some cool amps.
> 
> How can anyone not like a amp named "Juggernaut"?


His new offerings look promising but I had the displeasure of dealing with Mantz already, and I refuse to go through that again if I encounter any problems with his products.


----------



## JAX

ChrisB said:


> His new offerings look promising but I had the displeasure of dealing with Mantz already, and I refuse to go through that again if I encounter any problems with his products.


I think I remember reading it. I have mixed feelings about the guy. 

That's why I said "if"

If he can proove he can still make them like he used to then the things the happened recently won't happen again. 

Also he needs to learn a little about service cause that is what has turned many off. 

I didn't buy any of his last line but I had the lines before. They were good amps but again he had service issues. He just sucks at it. 

I will not send him anything to repair. Even if my zed made amps need fixin. 

Still I have to say he can make a good amp when he wants to.


----------



## SoulFly

doesn't he just design them and outsources the manufacturing? i read once that zed violates patents and doesnt pay to use licenses but they look like nice amps though, never heard one however reading about service issues tells me i never will.


----------



## chefhow

I ran Adcoms in my car last season and I ran brand new Image Dynamics iSeries amps in my car. While the Adcoms were very nice they werent as clean and efficient as the ID's are. IMHO while old school is cool it's not as good as new.


----------



## JAX

chefhow said:


> I ran Adcoms in my car last season and I ran brand new Image Dynamics iSeries amps in my car. While the Adcoms were very nice they werent as clean and efficient as the ID's are. IMHO while old school is cool it's not as good as new.


I know you did. I rember you talking about them. 

One thing though. My adcom sounded better than all the amps I have tried in the current setup. 

But you can't just say new stuff is generally better than old. You may like your Image amps more but I know nothingxabout them. 

I don't like adcom because it's old. I like it cause it sounded fantastic in my car. 

I also paid $200 for it and it had it's caps replaced and it's owner knows them very well.


----------



## chefhow

JAX said:


> I know you did. I rember you talking about them.
> 
> One thing though. My adcom sounded better than all the amps I have tried in the current setup.
> 
> But you can't just say new stuff is generally better than old. You may like your Image amps more but I know nothingxabout them.
> 
> I don't like adcom because it's old. I like it cause it sounded fantastic in my car.
> 
> I also paid $200 for it and it had it's caps replaced and it's owner knows them very well.


Dont get me wrong Jax, I really liked the sound of my Adcoms but they werent efficient and were lacking the power I am getting from the ID's. My #1 reason for taking new over old is ease of repair/replacements. If one of my Adoms went out during the season I would have been FUBAR and scrambling for an amp that would be VERY hard to find and cost a fortune. Getting somebody to work on an Adcom that knows about them is a tall task. If you are interested I may be pursuaded to sell...


----------



## Oliver

Any device that is used as it was intended = with-in it's parameters,
will sound fairly good.


----------



## Jonny Hotnuts

With the exception of D power supplies most amps use the same circuit topology as amps designed in the 90's....maybe the Chinese are using much higher quality components like TIP35/36 and T03's outputs.....oh...wait. 

~JH


----------



## JAX

chefhow said:


> Dont get me wrong Jax, I really liked the sound of my Adcoms but they werent efficient and were lacking the power I am getting from the ID's. My #1 reason for taking new over old is ease of repair/replacements. If one of my Adoms went out during the season I would have been FUBAR and scrambling for an amp that would be VERY hard to find and cost a fortune. Getting somebody to work on an Adcom that knows about them is a tall task. If you are interested I may be pursuaded to sell...



totally understand. fortunately for me I dont need to compete and I have 1 amp I can use if there is a problem. 

also, my speakers are very efficient so they seem to use what they get well. 

may be interested later if you decide to sell.


----------



## SoulFly

It's the design, not the manufacturer or where its located. China will use whatever parts a company wants and they have the high tech facilities to do it all in mass. 
I was told before that even top brands don't always design a new style of amp to use the best parts, supposedly in the case of Rockford Fosgate for example that they will design a premium amp on one generation to generate buzz, then use cheaper parts the next redesign or two to generate more profits and others do a similar approach...i guess this is why they have been hit and miss in certain models...it looks to me their on a "premium" kick again with their PBR punch line, but i could be wrong.


----------



## JAX

well..for example I was about the try the "new" Orion xtremes as they were pretty cheap on ebay..

I was until the guy on here I was talking to told me how the 4 channel burnt up on him in maybe days or weeks .

I ran away from them that second.

might have been a fluke..not worth chancing. rather have an old Orion


----------



## PPI_GUY

As you can tell by my username and avatar, I love old school stuff. I own and use old PPI equipment daily But, there is one area that has definately seen vast improvement and that is in signal processing. There is literally nothing old school that can come close to a JBL MS-8, JL Cleansweep, etc. I had a JVC 'soundfield processor' (forget the model #) that I bought around '92 that was basically an early version of time alignment that was delay based and even offered some phase correction but, never really worked like it promised. 
There is still some promising innovation going on in car audio with stuff like time alignment, JL's super compact D class XD amps, RF's power rail design, headunit flexability and even Alpine's new Type R sub design.
I don't think you can paint with a broad brush and say "old school is better" or newer equipment trumps old technology. You also can't base any argument solely on your idea of perceived sound quality. I say "perceived" because everyone hears differently...let me say that again..._everyone hears differently_. It's totally subjective. What sounds great to me, might sound like garbage to you.


----------



## Sarthos

I fail to see why the Type R sub design is so innovative compared to a million other things in the world, or how headunits can be flexAble 

But you're right about Time alignment and sound processing. So many old equalizers I've seen will distort if you apply any boost or they introduce some hum into a system, etc. I laugh at the expensive old equalizer my dad has for the for the stereo in his garage since it has less bands than my Audiocontrol DQS and you can't equalize channels individually. It's also way bigger


----------



## Lanson

Man.. I thought I unsubbed from this **** a while ago. Silly me.

This is getting retarded.


----------



## SoulFly

PPI_GUY said:


> As you can tell by my username and avatar, I love old school stuff. I own and use old PPI equipment daily But, there is one area that has definately seen vast improvement and that is in signal processing. There is literally nothing old school that can come close to a JBL MS-8, JL Cleansweep, etc. I had a JVC 'soundfield processor' (forget the model #) that I bought around '92 that was basically an early version of time alignment that was delay based and even offered some phase correction but, never really worked like it promised.
> There is still some promising innovation going on in car audio with stuff like time alignment, JL's super compact D class XD amps, RF's power rail design, headunit flexability and even Alpine's new Type R sub design.
> I don't think you can paint with a broad brush and say "old school is better" or newer equipment trumps old technology. You also can't base any argument solely on your idea of perceived sound quality. I say "perceived" because everyone hears differently...let me say that again..._everyone hears differently_. It's totally subjective. What sounds great to me, might sound like garbage to you.


I have the cleansweep. honestly i thought it was a waste of money.
I also really like how small amps are starting to get. Very impressed with RF's PBR. the current 300 watt is only 6.75"x4.x" ...dam thats small.
Some 1000 watt'ers out there around 10"...half the size of mine

agree with the perception of sound, i think modern OEM's sound fine, some like the 07 dodge ram has some pretty good midbass in the fronts, almost sounds like theres a small sub somewhere. I upgraded my fronts to Memphis and a JLA 450/4 amp and doesnt sound as good as that truck, felt like i wasted my time and money, so i went back to HU output, sounds bout the same as the amp did to me anyway.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Sarthos said:


> I fail to see why the Type R sub design is so innovative compared to a million other things in the world, or how headunits can be flexAble
> 
> But you're right about Time alignment and sound processing. So many old equalizers I've seen will distort if you apply any boost or they introduce some hum into a system, etc. I laugh at the expensive old equalizer my dad has for the for the stereo in his garage since it has less bands than my Audiocontrol DQS and you can't equalize channels individually. It's also way bigger


You need to look into the new Type R subs (not the original series) forr some nice design changes. I mentioned headunits being flexible (sorry for dropping the i) in regard to the various forms of media storage they can now accomidate. There was a time not so long ago when an aux input was a face mounted 1/8" jack and nothing more. Another headunit improvement is the ever expanding features packed into the same size chassis from 20 years back...satellite radio, HD fm, etc.


----------



## Resonant

I dunno a lot the gear I have owned the old stuff has always been better than the new. I know a lot companies still do make some decent quality goods though.


----------



## JAX

old Orion wipes the floor of the new Orion at least on the extreme line from what I have heard.

Old PPI still is as good as new if not better..

Old PG is as good or better made than new stuff although havnt seen anyone with the new stuff other than the PG diehards and I dont visit them much.

do the old sound any better? dont know. but I do know lots of the new stuff is considered "disposable" for a reason. its too early to say how long a service life a lot of this new stuff has but its proven the old stuff was made to last


----------



## jimmy2345

fourthmeal said:


> Man.. I thought I unsubbed from this **** a while ago. Silly me.
> 
> This is getting retarded.


Wouldn't this post mean you just subbed again? Smart guy here.


Old is better than new when it comes to amps 90% of the time. Get over it. If you use new stuff because you think it sounds better....you don't know what good sound is.

Shut the thread down...it's over.


----------



## amchino

WOW!!!!! I LOVE THIS TOPIC!!!!!!!! HOW CAN YOU NOT AGREE TO DISAGREE WITH ALL THESE'S OPINIONS? LOL.....I HAD THE SAME TALK WITH ONE OF OUR FOUNDING FATHERS (LEGEND ,DESIGNER OF CAR AUDIO AMPS)..WHICH I WILLL NOT MENTION ANY NAMES.....BASICALLY MOST OF YOU HAVE MADE VERY TRUE POINTS ON THE TOPIC OLD VS NEW.BOTTOM LINE IS THIS? BACK IN THE DAYS YOU HAD GOOD AND CRAP CAR AUDIO, CHEAP TO EXPENSIVE, NOT MUCH DIFFERENCES WE HAVE TODAY.SO CAN WE SAY ITS A DRAW? PERSONALLY , THIS BRINGS BACK A DEBATE TOPIC ABOUT SQ ...MOST PROFESSIONAL TODAY ARE STILL DEBATING ON WHICH HAS BETTER SQ THE VINYL RECORD OR THE CD? MOST PROFESSIONAL PICKED THE VINYL RECORD,,,,JUST FUNNY...


----------



## ChrisB

amchino said:


> PERSONALLY , THIS BRINGS BACK A DEBATE TOPIC ABOUT SQ ...MOST PROFESSIONAL TODAY ARE STILL DEBATING ON WHICH HAS BETTER SQ THE VINYL RECORD OR THE CD? MOST PROFESSIONAL PICKED THE VINYL RECORD,,,,JUST FUNNY...


The only problem with vinyl is that a Technics 1200 won't keep the needle in the groove while I am driving down the highway.:laugh: Also, a 24 bit 96 kHz digitized vinyl conversion sounds AWESOME!


----------



## chad

jimmy2345 said:


> Old is better than new when it comes to amps 90% of the time. Get over it. If you use new stuff because you think it sounds better....you don't know what good sound is.


I sincerely believe, from a technical and intelligent standpoint, that you cannot back this up. Other than the fact that you still think Bugle boy and IOU are the fashion statements of all times.



amchino said:


> WOW!!!!! I LOVE THIS TOPIC!!!!!!!! HOW CAN YOU NOT AGREE TO DISAGREE WITH ALL THESE'S OPINIONS? LOL.....I HAD THE SAME TALK WITH ONE OF OUR FOUNDING FATHERS (LEGEND ,DESIGNER OF CAR AUDIO AMPS)..WHICH I WILLL NOT MENTION ANY NAMES.....BASICALLY MOST OF YOU HAVE MADE VERY TRUE POINTS ON THE TOPIC OLD VS NEW.BOTTOM LINE IS THIS? BACK IN THE DAYS YOU HAD GOOD AND CRAP CAR AUDIO, CHEAP TO EXPENSIVE, NOT MUCH DIFFERENCES WE HAVE TODAY.SO CAN WE SAY ITS A DRAW? PERSONALLY , THIS BRINGS BACK A DEBATE TOPIC ABOUT SQ ...MOST PROFESSIONAL TODAY ARE STILL DEBATING ON WHICH HAS BETTER SQ THE VINYL RECORD OR THE CD? MOST PROFESSIONAL PICKED THE VINYL RECORD,,,,JUST FUNNY...



Was that a seizure of some sorts?


----------



## JAX

Bugle boy ! Lol


----------



## amchino

Chad, you know that you still wear BB Jeans and IOu is still great or otherwise you would not of mentioned it....hehe

Chris B , I still have my 1200 techs and they are still the best turn tables......lol

PS... Sorry for the caps Mr.CHAd!!!!!


----------



## jimmy2345

chad said:


> I sincerely believe, from a technical and intelligent standpoint, that you cannot back this up. Other than the fact that you still think Bugle boy and IOU are the fashion statements of all times.


Seeing as you think you just made an intelligent statement by comparing the trends of clothing to the sound and quality of electronics nothing else really needs to be said. Intelligent? Not even close.


----------



## chefhow

jimmy2345 said:


> Old is better than new when it comes to amps 90% of the time. Get over it. If you use new stuff because you think it sounds better....you don't know what good sound is.
> 
> Shut the thread down...it's over.


if this were the case why would any amplifier company, including LP, make new amps with new designs? If old school=better essque then why bother with trying to advance?


----------



## jimmy2345

The problem is most of you forum cliques take facts out of context. It's not that better designs cannot be made; it's that 90% of the time they aren't better today. There are nice good new amps out there, but not too many. 

The old vs. new arguement always comes up because the large majority of the amp manufacturers from yesteryear, who used to make high quality gear, are now under new ownership making crap. That is why the arguement is always new vs. old. It really is too generalized.


----------



## chefhow

jimmy2345 said:


> The problem is most of you forum cliques take facts out of context. It's not that better designs cannot be made; it's that 90% of the time they aren't better today. There are nice good new amps out there, but not too many.
> 
> The old vs. new arguement always comes up because the large majority of the amp manufacturers from yesteryear, who used to make high quality gear, are now under new ownership making crap. That is why the arguement is always new vs. old. It really is too generalized.


If the question/argument is too generalized for you then you shouldn't give a blanket statement as an answer.


----------



## jimmy2345

chefhow said:


> If the question/argument is too generalized for you then you shouldn't give a blanket statement as an answer.


First of all, what I should or shouldn't do really isn't a concern of some guy I don't even know on an internet forum.

....and yes, a blanket statement such as the one I made can be made because most times it is true.


----------



## chad

amchino said:


> Chad, you know that you still wear BB Jeans and IOu is still great or otherwise you would not of mentioned it....hehe


Actually a more modern version, I need more pockets in my old age, Chuck Norris stole my fanny pack 



amchino said:


> Chris B , I still have my 1200 techs and they are still the best turn tables......lol


I still use them exclusively here for their quality and the fact that they are incredibly robust.



amchino said:


> PS... Sorry for the caps Mr.CHAd!!!!!


It's cool, just pullin your chain 



jimmy2345 said:


> Seeing as you think you just made an intelligent statement by comparing the trends of clothing to the sound and quality of electronics nothing else really needs to be said. Intelligent? Not even close.


Dodgeball! 

Hate to break it to you but the quality of electronics components have come LEAPS AND BOUNDS in quality from the days you worship. Components have become faster, they hold tolerance better, you name it. Amplifier technology is analog (in terms of quality) across the industries, home/pro/car/industrial/RF. But have you ever wondered, with the exception of tube type antique amps, why not many people nut-hug the older stuff like they do in car audio? Is it possibly because now they get boners owning **** that they could not buy or convince their parents to purchase as a CHILD?



jimmy2345 said:


> *The old vs. new arguement always comes up because the large majority of the amp manufacturers from yesteryear, who used to make high quality gear, are now under new ownership making crap. That is why the arguement is always new vs. old. It really is too generalized.*


One of the few things you have said that I totally agree with. and I concur, it's an absolute shame.



jimmy2345 said:


> First of all, what I should or shouldn't do really isn't a concern of some guy I don't even know on an internet forum.


----------



## ErinH

jimmy2345 said:


> Seeing as you think you just made an intelligent statement by comparing the trends of clothing to the sound and quality of electronics nothing else really needs to be said. Intelligent? Not even close.


actually, there is quite a lot of accuracy in his analogy. 

(hint: subjectivity)


----------



## amchino

CHAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know , i try not to take it to heart .
but saddly i am for the old school stuff when it comes to amps only.Speakers are way better today then they were back in the days.

*
I agree to this statement here:>).....*
*Dodgeball! 

Hate to break it to you but the quality of electronics components have come LEAPS AND BOUNDS in quality from the days you worship. Components have become faster, they hold tolerance better, you name it. Amplifier technology is analog (in terms of quality) across the industries, home/pro/car/industrial/RF. But have you ever wondered, with the exception of tube type antique amps, why not many people nut-hug the older stuff like they do in car audio? Is it possibly because now they get boners owning **** that they could not buy or convince their parents to purchase as a CHILD?*


----------



## amchino

Here is my test unit...








[/URL][/IMG]


----------



## asota

About a year ago a friend of mine bought a brand new Hi fonics Zeus 5- channel amp he got it all hooked up in his car and brought it over for me to hear. He was all excited he got this monster amp for less than $200 on E-Bay. I'm sitting there listening I'm like ok lets hear it he says thats it as loud as it goes wow what crap must be something wrong no mid-bass sub just rumbled no punch at all went through everything it was all hooked up correct. I had a old pc4200 laying around looked like crap only payed $85 for it but it worked we put that amp in place of this thing that was twice as large and instantly it was 3 times louder mid-bass was rocking out the door subs hit so hard they hurt you. He took that huge fancy amp with the lights on top and ran it over with his car.


----------



## jimmy2345

asota said:


> About a year ago a friend of mine bought a brand new Hi fonics Zeus 5- channel amp he got it all hooked up in his car and brought it over for me to hear. He was all excited he got this monster amp for less than $200 on E-Bay. I'm sitting there listening I'm like ok lets hear it he says thats it as loud as it goes wow what crap must be something wrong no mid-bass sub just rumbled no punch at all went through everything it was all hooked up correct. I had a old pc4200 laying around looked like crap only payed $85 for it but it worked we put that amp in place of this thing that was twice as large and instantly it was 3 times louder mid-bass was rocking out the door subs hit so hard they hurt you. He took that huge fancy amp with the lights on top and ran it over with his car.


Luckily he had a friend like you or he would probably be happy with what he had not knowing his system sucked balls.


----------



## ou812

chad said:


> I sincerely believe, from a technical and intelligent standpoint, that you cannot back this up. Other than the fact that you still think Bugle boy and IOU are the fashion statements of all times.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Was that a seizure of some sorts?


Totally LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That was good.


----------



## chad

jimmy2345 said:


> Luckily he had a friend like you or he would probably be happy with what he had not knowing his system sucked balls.


Have you (Jimmy) ever laid in bed (not getting laid, because we ALL know that is NOT happening) at night and thought to yourself, all alone, "Damn jimmy, your Bugle Boys are worn out, your splatter paint on your minitruck is fading, and you are a dumb **** that smells like Drakkar Noir, maybe I should just shut the **** up?" 

Then rolled over and made out with your pillow?


----------



## jimmy2345

chad said:


> Have you (Jimmy) ever laid in bed (not getting laid, because we ALL know that is NOT happening) at night and thought to yourself, all alone, "Damn jimmy, your Bugle Boys are worn out, your splatter paint on your minitruck is fading, and you are a dumb **** that smells like Drakkar Noir, maybe I should just shut the **** up?"
> 
> Then rolled over and made out with your pillow?


Maybe...only if I wore Bugle Boys, slept alone, owned a mini-truck, and was so broke I couldn't afford to get it painted....then maybe. Unfortunately, that is not the case.


----------



## asota

Point i was making about my friends amp was in most cases you get what you pay for cheap Made in China amps are cheap and don't even come close to most Made in USA old school amps some more expensive Made in Wherever amps are well engineered exp.JL Audio and don't sound to bad but still not as good as most old school . As long as you can still get used old school amps that sound better and cost less i guess it is a no brainer what is better.


----------



## c_nitty

asota said:


> About a year ago a friend of mine bought a brand new Hi fonics Zeus 5- channel amp he got it all hooked up in his car and brought it over for me to hear. He was all excited he got this monster amp for less than $200 on E-Bay. I'm sitting there listening I'm like ok lets hear it he says thats it as loud as it goes wow what crap must be something wrong no mid-bass sub just rumbled no punch at all went through everything it was all hooked up correct. I had a old pc4200 laying around looked like crap only payed $85 for it but it worked we put that amp in place of this thing that was twice as large and instantly it was 3 times louder mid-bass was rocking out the door subs hit so hard they hurt you. He took that huge fancy amp with the lights on top and ran it over with his car.


*This is true I have not seen many new school amps out do oldschool of the same power.*


----------



## SoulFly

maybe its how their rated? 
My mtx 300xd thunder definitly puts my Punch 60ix to shame, i just hooked it up a few days ago on an infinity sub out of curiosity.


----------



## c_nitty

SoulFly said:


> maybe its how their rated?
> My mtx 300xd thunder definitly puts my Punch 60ix to shame, i just hooked it up a few days ago on an infinity sub out of curiosity.


C'mon son the 60ix is only 200+ max watts do apples to apples.


----------



## SoulFly

c_nitty said:


> C'mon son the 60ix is only 200+ max watts do apples to apples.


105 rms actual watts per channel. 210 rms bridged @4ohms... its rated at 30. They under rated their amps if you recall and i think that may have been rated at 12 volts but not sure on that one.
Thunder is 200 watts rms x1..all at 4ohms. 10% under rated mtx says.
i had the birth sheets on PDF. i'll try to find them if i can. But if its not double the power then its negilible imo

Edit: found some paperwork. At 11.6volts the 60ix is 120 watts rms mono 4ohms
14.4 volts: 207 watts rms mono 4 ohms. Dynamically its rated at 260 but probably closer to 300.

Anyway my point was that the diffences are probably more in how their rated. His oldschool amp may have been more under rated or perhaps the other guys amp was over rated or both rated different than the actual power being used between both amps in that guys ride. whichever the case, If both amps put out the same actual power, they would have sounded the same...other than any sound coloring, crosstalk or other such factors between them. 500 watts old or new is still 500 watts


----------



## thehatedguy

And here I was thinking the 90s were only like that in rural North Carolina.




chad said:


> Have you (Jimmy) ever laid in bed (not getting laid, because we ALL know that is NOT happening) at night and thought to yourself, all alone, "Damn jimmy, your Bugle Boys are worn out, your splatter paint on your minitruck is fading, and you are a dumb **** that smells like Drakkar Noir, maybe I should just shut the **** up?"
> 
> Then rolled over and made out with your pillow?


----------



## PPI_GUY

I guess the "perma-ban" on Jimmy2345 was not so much, huh?


----------



## ryanr7386

I don't mean to hijack this thread but speaking of O/S gear does anyone have an owners manual for an Alpine 3331 eq in pdf i could land? Thanks and keep on chatten!


----------



## Silver Supra

thehatedguy said:


> And here I was thinking the 90s were only like that in rural North Carolina.


That's how it was in Winston-Salem too... not just rural NC!


----------



## PPI_GUY

Silver Supra said:


> That's how it was in Winston-Salem too... not just rural NC!


There are some aspects of the 80's and 90's best left forgotten. Anything neon for example.


----------



## jimmy2345

PPI_GUY said:


> I guess the "perma-ban" on Jimmy2345 was not so much, huh?


Ummmm....seeing as I can post freely; does that not answer your question? We all know your on the bandwagon. No need to post comments such as this.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

goddamnit

motherfuckers

*it's YOU'RE
*
****


----------



## thehatedguy

And tweed.

And AMG Hammer knockoffs.



PPI_GUY said:


> There are some aspects of the 80's and 90's best left forgotten. Anything neon for example.


----------



## chad

Crimped hair.


----------



## PPI_GUY

jimmy2345 said:


> Ummmm....seeing as I can post freely; does that not answer your question? We all know your on the bandwagon. No need to post comments such as this.


And we all know you dump on anything new without even trying it first. I give you a couple of weeks, maybe a month at most before you're banned again.


----------



## PPI_GUY

I like the point that was made about the efficency of newer speakers, subs in particular. I assume there has to be some trade-off between efficency and power handling? Kinda like a tack hammer versus a 10 pound sledge?


----------



## thehatedguy

Actually sub efficiency has gone down...way down compared to what it used to be. Those new fangled small box subs traded sensitivity for small space.

I remember when 3 cubes was pretty much standard for a 12. Now they are going in a quarter of that.


----------



## PPI_GUY

thehatedguy said:


> Actually sub efficiency has gone down...way down compared to what it used to be. Those new fangled small box subs traded sensitivity for small space.
> 
> I remember when 3 cubes was pretty much standard for a 12. Now they are going in a quarter of that.


Yeah, I didn't make myself clear. I was trying to make the point that efficency had dropped severely especially in regard to subs.


----------



## sqshoestring

I used to run 2cf ported for 10s and 1cf sealed for an 8 was tight sounding. Lower efficiency subs can reach lower, sometimes have more bottom than higher efficiency sub has.


----------



## jimmy2345

PPI_GUY said:


> And we all know you dump on anything new without even trying it first. I give you a couple of weeks, maybe a month at most before you're banned again.


Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? I have owned, or do own, just about every amplifier or deck that has ever hit the market. No exaggeration there buddy. Lots and lots of drivers as well.

Now not one person on this forum has owned or heard the brand of speakers I run and every one of you talks **** about them? Now what were you saying?

Way to pull things out of the air to make me sound like a bad guy. However, your claim should be pointed at the guys sitting next to you on your bandwagon. You may even be holding their hand.


----------



## JAX

jimmy2345 said:


> Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? I have owned, or do own, just about every amplifier or deck that has ever hit the market. No exaggeration there buddy. Lots and lots of drivers as well.
> 
> Now not one person on this forum has owned or heard the brand of speakers I run and every one of you talks **** about them? Now what were you saying?
> 
> Way to pull things out of the air to make me sound like a bad guy. However, your claim should be pointed at the guys sitting next to you on your bandwagon. You may even be holding their hand.



what kind of speakers are you running?


----------



## PPI_GUY

jimmy2345 said:


> Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? I have owned, or do own, just about every amplifier or deck that has ever hit the market. No exaggeration there buddy. Lots and lots of drivers as well.
> 
> Now not one person on this forum has owned or heard the brand of speakers I run and every one of you talks **** about them? Now what were you saying?
> 
> Way to pull things out of the air to make me sound like a bad guy. However, your claim should be pointed at the guys sitting next to you on your bandwagon. You may even be holding their hand.


What the **** are you talking about? I have never dumped on anything you own or run. In fact, I don't even know what you own and frankly couldn't give a ****! 
Why don't you come clean and admit why you were banned a few weeks ago? Since you are to much of a punk to do it, I'll share with anyone who missed it. You were banned because you were dumping on the new P-P-I stuff in another thread. A blatant violation of forum rules. What's even worse is that you admitted to not having ever actually tried any of the stuff you were dumping on. Several members complained about your behavor and we thought you were banned permanently. Unfortunately, that apparently didn't happen. However, I feel your stay this time will be short.

EDIT: Here is the thread that "Jimmy" got banned for dumping all over...
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...d/96940-new-ppi-amps-phantom-black-ice-7.html


----------



## ChrisB

Maybe he was referring to me who ragged on a certain product due to it's MSRP. 

Oddly, it wasn't until recently that I adopted the philosophy of a departed local engineer. He always preached that it did NOT take a lot of money to achieve decent sound in an automobile. If I had only listened to him when I was 17, I would have saved a TON of money along the way. Instead, I chose to fall for marketing gimmicks and the ever favorite "Trust us, it sounds great" slogan.

Oh, and did I just see PPI_GUY pointing out jimmy2345 ragging on a yet to be released product that jimmy's never heard? Say it isn't so.


----------



## thehatedguy

What speakers do you (jimmy) run? I'm sure someone around here has heard something you use.


----------



## jimmy2345

ChrisB said:


> Maybe he was referring to me who ragged on a certain product due to it's MSRP.
> 
> Oddly, it wasn't until recently that I adopted the philosophy of a departed local engineer. He always preached that it did NOT take a lot of money to achieve decent sound in an automobile. If I had only listened to him when I was 17, I would have saved a TON of money along the way. Instead, I chose to fall for marketing gimmicks and the ever favorite "Trust us, it sounds great" slogan.
> 
> Oh, and did I just see PPI_GUY pointing out jimmy2345 ragging on a yet to be released product that jimmy's never heard? Say it isn't so.


The past predicts the future.....their past hasn't been great for years. Truthfully, I shouldn't have even wasted my time in that thread. Those products are truely inferior and not on the level of the stuff I would run. They may be fine for some but leave alot to me desired for many.

PPI_GUY - I never stated you specifically and was referring to the clan here as a whole. You stated I talk bad about products I have never heard...which is normally not the case. However, this same act is done towards me routinely. You will notice why I haven't stated what I run. Clearly because I want to avoid all the haters that do exactly what you are stating I do....which I normally don't do. That PPI thread was a one time deal mainly because Grizz is hyping these products like there is nothing better when we all know that isn't the case. Not to mention, he doesn't sit well with me to begin with. He is here to market...nothing more. Go back and read posts and you will find out what I run. ChrisB can tell you if he wants. However, he seems to be a little kinder these days towards products he hasn't heard.


----------



## jimmy2345

PPI_GUY said:


> What the **** are you talking about? I have never dumped on anything you own or run. In fact, I don't even know what you own and frankly couldn't give a ****!
> Why don't you come clean and admit why you were banned a few weeks ago? Since you are to much of a punk to do it, I'll share with anyone who missed it. You were banned because you were dumping on the new P-P-I stuff in another thread. A blatant violation of forum rules. What's even worse is that you admitted to not having ever actually tried any of the stuff you were dumping on. Several members complained about your behavor and we thought you were banned permanently. Unfortunately, that apparently didn't happen. However, I feel your stay this time will be short.
> 
> EDIT: Here is the thread that "Jimmy" got banned for dumping all over...
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...d/96940-new-ppi-amps-phantom-black-ice-7.html



As far as being banned; you aren't a mod, or my mother so my "status" is none of your concern.

If I would have made a post stating exactly what you just stated, I would be banned for all the vulgarity and name calling. All members are not treated the same here which is exactly why I have the attitude I do and will not go out of my way to obey and kiss ass. I also didn't know I couldn't state my opinion in a thread about products which you say is against forum rules. If that truely were the case, there wouldn't be many members on this forum. However, as I just stated, all members aren't treated the same. 

Do you see how out of hand this gets from no fault of my own. I wasn't doing anything wrong here and Chad steps in and makes an OFF TOPIC type post directed to me...nothing happened to him. I politely blew it off. You come in ranting about me being banned which had no bearing on this thread.....nothing happened to you. Now we are in a long discussion about nothing because you want to disrespect me. If all were equal...you would be warned by the mods and we could move on.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Well jimmy, this thread is about the myth of old school gear being the best and many have stated that there is plenty of good NEW stuff so, I guess we are still on topic. As far as the "PPI Phanton & Black Ice" thread is concerned...I started that thread inquiring about the availability of those products. Grizz Archer offered valuable info the release dates and then YOU jumped in and started DUMPING on a brand that you have never tried. You were extremely disrespectful to a Rep from a manufacturer(Grizz Archer) as well as many other forum contributors. Because of those actions, you were BANNED. When asked by a mod if we thought it should be permanent, EVERYONE agreed it should be. 
You say all members aren't treated the same? Could the reason you are catching crap now be because of your past record of pissing people off, dumping on manufacturers and ignoring the rules?
But, don't just take my word for it, everyone should go ahead and read a few pages of jimmy's thoughts in the thread I linked to above.


----------



## jimmy2345

PPI_GUY said:


> Well jimmy, this thread is about the myth of old school gear being the best and many have stated that there is plenty of good NEW stuff so, I guess we are still on topic. As far as the "PPI Phanton & Black Ice" thread is concerned...I started that thread inquiring about the availability of those products. Grizz Archer offered valuable info the release dates and then YOU jumped in and started DUMPING on a brand that you have never tried. You were extremely disrespectful to a Rep from a manufacturer(Grizz Archer) as well as many other forum contributors. Because of those actions, you were BANNED. When asked by a mod if we thought it should be permanent, EVERYONE agreed it should be.
> You say all members aren't treated the same? Could the reason you are catching crap now be because of your past record of pissing people off, dumping on manufacturers and ignoring the rules?
> But, don't just take my word for it, everyone should go ahead and read a few pages of jimmy's thoughts in the thread I linked to above.


There you go pulling things out of the air again. ASSuming I have never used PPI. How long have we been good friends for you to know what I have or haven't used? I happen to own numerous PPI amps at this very moment. Would I ever buy a current model....you know the answer to that. I wonder why your avatar is an old school PPI Pro Mos 50 and not one of the new offerings that are so darn wonderful? Actions speak louder than words.

Do you think I care about what you think of me? I will catch crap all day and then **** right back. The point was that your actions are no better than mine. The only difference is, I don't kiss ass and you do. Go look in the mirror.

Go read my comments in that thread. They are all true, and I stand by them. I should seeing as I paid my debt to DIYMA for them.


----------



## ChrisB

To get this thread back on track, can anyone tell me why I would want to use something like the old school Rockford Fosgate Power 650 or Power 1000 MOSFET over a Arc Audio SE4200 or Audison LRx 4.1k?

As someone who used both old and new gear from 2007 on, I would rather pick new due to the fact that new gear is less likely to have issues. Unfortunately, I ran into two kinds of old school gear when I was in shopaholic mode. One was gear that had issues upon receipt and the other was gear that developed issues through actual use.


----------



## PPI_GUY

jimmy, you really are a piece of work aren't you? The amp in my avatar IS a Pro Mos 50 and you also should know that in the Black Ice & Phantom thread, I asked Grizz Archer when those amps would be available. Why? Because I am interested in buying a couple! I even inquired about them being available in the special Epsilon pricing recently made available to members of this forum. At no point did I brag on any of the new PPI lineup. Why? Because I haven't tried any of their new products yet!!! So, where you are getting this "bandwagon" crap is beyond me. Apparently you have a problem with Grizz Archer and anyone else who is willing to give the modern incarnation of a traditional brand, a fair shake.
Whatever. Frankly, you aren't worth anymore of my time. You won't be around long anyway. You'll piss a bunch more people off and get banned again. Zebras don't change their stripes.


----------



## jimmy2345

ChrisB said:


> To get this thread back on track, can anyone tell me why I would want to use something like the old school Rockford Fosgate Power 650 or Power 1000 MOSFET over a Arc Audio SE4200 or Audison LRx 4.1k?
> 
> As someone who used both old and new gear from 2007 on, I would rather pick new due to the fact that new gear is less likely to have issues. Unfortunately, I ran into two kinds of old school gear when I was in shopaholic mode. One was gear that had issues upon receipt and the other was gear that developed issues through actual use.


Truthfully, it would be personal preference. In my opinion, the old Fosgate Power series amps have more fidelity which is something that is hard to obtain with newer amps. However, those amps in particular aren't as clean as the Arc or Audison. It really boils down to what is more important to you. Now, there are a few other amps I could name that have the best of both worlds.


----------



## cheesehead

Well I will be testing this theory soon enough. 

I will be changing out my pair Kenwood KAC X4R's for a pair of PG ZX450's.


----------



## warmboi

I think OLD school amps are probably better than the ones today. The old school Alpine products especially v12 amps were good. Mb quarts before they were bought out were really good components. The old PPI art series amps were also great products. Maybe times change and the guys who actually designed the original older products dont work for them anymore and have gone to different companies thats why the old school stuff seem better.


----------



## STI GUY

I still think you can't do better than an old Soundstream Reference amp. I'm having mine converted to CLASS A as we speak.


----------



## ChrisB

STI GUY said:


> I still think you can't do better than an old Soundstream Reference amp. I'm having mine converted to CLASS A as we speak.


I had to change every GD switch on my Reference 700s. I forgot to tell the new owner of my car not to play with the switches, because he'd be sorry if he did. Granted, I can understand a switch going bad from flipping it, but, there is no excuse for a switch that has NEVER been flipped to go bad! YES, the latter of that prior statement did indeed happen during the period I owned my Reference 700s.


----------



## chad

LOL class A


----------



## TrickyRicky

Hey chris thats exactly what am going though right now with my 700sx. But I think the problem was caused by high output DC voltage (atleast thats what one repair tech told me,lol).


----------



## ChrisB

chad said:


> LOL class A


The distortion and excessive current draw that his amplifier will have after the "conversion" will add warmth... Both to the sound and the amplifier's chassis.

I hope he is aware that his amp will just be biased towards Class A with more harmonic distortion and will NOT truly be a Class A amplifier. Well, I guess he is aware of that now.:laugh:




TrickyRicky said:


> Hey chris thats exactly what am going though right now with my 700sx. But I think the problem was caused by high output DC voltage (atleast thats what one repair tech told me,lol).


If you need any of the gain selector switches, let me know and I'll mail them to you. I should have 7 left.


----------



## chad

the switches go bad due to them being unused.... especially down int he dirrrtay souf because of humidity, which promotes the oxidation between 2 dissimilar metals. After installation or even immediately after receiving them coat the internals with a Teflon based lubricant that is safe for electronics. I used Rawn Superlube... Used to use Rawn Tefrawn but ti's no longer around.


----------



## azvrt

STI GUY said:


> I still think you can't do better than an old Soundstream Reference amp. I'm having mine converted to CLASS A as we speak.


Which model are you having converted ?
By Wade ?


----------



## chefhow

STI GUY said:


> I still think you can't do better than an old Soundstream Reference amp. I'm having mine converted to CLASS A as we speak.


This is the ideal example of irony. You are having what you believe to be the pinnacle of amplifiers modified with new parts....


----------



## azvrt

chefhow said:


> This is the ideal example of irony. You are having what you believe to be the pinnacle of amplifiers modified with new parts....


The person who is modifying them might very well be using the original parts (for instance to turn a Ref 500 into a Class A 6.0) as an ex-collegue and friend of his still sells 'm.
And even if he doesn't, just by changing the brakes of your oldtimer doesn't make it a new car. With some mods an oldschool amplifier can be made better as there are some good parts available today days, unfortunately most of the best parts aren't utilised in today's amps so having an old amp modded with the best parts available doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing.


----------



## chefhow

I just find humor in the fact that all these guys that swear by old LP's and SS Ref's have them modded with new parts. If they were all that and a bag of chips you wouldnt want to change anything about them is all I'm saying.


----------



## JAX

chefhow said:


> I just find humor in the fact that all these guys that swear by old LP's and SS Ref's have them modded with new parts. If they were all that and a bag of chips you wouldnt want to change anything about them is all I'm saying.


My guess and it's a guess would depend on what is changed. Some parts eventually wear out and go bad so that's the perfect time to upgrade/ change to maybe new improved parts. 

It just depends on what parts we are talking about and what exactly about the amp made it so "special"


Has there been too many amps ever made that had the best parts to be had totally throughout? 

I know there are some but not many. 

I have never heard one but the Sony giant is maybe an example. How it sounds ? He'll I don't have a clue.


----------



## azvrt

chefhow said:


> I just find humor in the fact that all these guys that swear by old LP's and SS Ref's have them modded with new parts. If they were all that and a bag of chips you wouldnt want to change anything about them is all I'm saying.


Very true. Most SS amps aren't modded, though. I know many LP's are modded.

I couldn't tell whether today's car audio stuff is better as I have no experience with it. What I do know that of the things I do have experience with the older stuff is better than the more recent stuff. Some of my best speakers are the very old Altec Lansings.

It doesn't really matter, let people use what they use and be happy with it. I have my old stuff and will die with I will never try out new stuff. Maybe I will miss out on some nice things but I am happy with the gear I have. The only thing I buy new is HU's as the CD Player section is quite delicate.
Though some people say the sound of the old top of the line Nakamichi tape decks will blow you away as compared to the new top of the line HU's.
I can't comment on that though, never heard them.


----------



## ChrisB

chefhow said:


> I just find humor in the fact that all these guys that swear by old LP's and SS Ref's have them modded with new parts. If they were all that and a bag of chips you wouldnt want to change anything about them is all I'm saying.


What always had me was how people swore by those brands even though they blew them up , sent them off for repair, used them, then blew them up again, and repeated the cycle. I once bought into the hype myself, and now I pretty much swear *at* old school gear, not by it.

Here is a rant not directed at anyone in particular: 
It is amazing how the phrase "Trust me, it will sound better" plays on one's psychoacoustic ability to actually BELIEVE it will indeed sound better. Just, how bad is human auditory memory again? So you are telling me that something that you pulled out your car, sent to someone for modifications, then reinstalled in your car several weeks later sounds "better" than it did before. Sure, I believe you and your ears. Now PROVE it to me.


----------



## aranawhite

STI GUY said:


> I still think you can't do better than an old Soundstream Reference amp. I'm having mine converted to CLASS A as we speak.


what's that upgrade cost? it must be worth it


----------



## azvrt

I'd like to know that as well.
I know Wade Stewart is doing Class A mods on his older amps.
Would probably be way too expensive to have a Ref 300 modded into a Class A 3.0 (same heatsink, same footprint) or a Ref 500 into a CA 6.0, but I imagine someone might find it very cool to have a Class A mod done on his or her 705 or Continuum and have a very unique amplifier, I know I would find it cool.

I have tested many many SS amps the past few months on a power supply, CD player and nice test speakers, and I do know the Class A (high bias A/B) amps do sound better than the regular Reference amps, although they sound very good already. These high bias A/B amps do sound very very nice, doesn't really matter whether they are true Class A amps or not they just sound great. Same for DLS Genesis SA30/SA50/DA100.


----------



## TheKrellGuy

Only thing about old gear is most of the good stuff was built domestic and built very well. today not so much. I loved and still love old gear but there are some new brands on the market today that command super high end dollars and for the purist seem to be worth the upgrade over older gear. Most of these brands are from Europe and Asia so go figure.

I also agree with the Ipod killing high end for the car and home scene, I dont own an Ipod for good reason and I still play vinyl when I am up for it on my Oracle at home.


----------



## Mark the Bold

Well I'll sacrifice the hi-fidelity CD child on the altar of ipod convenience anyday. Have had way too many CD's stolen from me over the years. Good riddance.

As for the new/old argument, I have to admit that I'm a huge technology fan. I can't say that I have heard too many old school brands (mainly DLS, MB Quart Q Series (pre-maxxsonix, and Zuki) but I'll put Nikola designed class H amps up against those anyday.

Last 4 installs I've done have been with the XH Clarion series amps and I am very, very impressed. As they are so new, I can't speak to their long term battle-hardiness. But for crossover options, aesthetics, layout, sound and power output they are hard to beat. Oh and you can get a 4x125w (XH4110) and a [email protected] (XH7110) for under $450 delivered. Go technology! Go new!


----------



## atxtrd

I work in the pro audio industry with some of the worlds best analog audio circuit designers. One thing I see is that when we build gear we match components with very close tolerances. Now days mfrs are outsourcing their stuff to china and/or using pre-designd overseas stuff and rebranding it, they are using cheap caps ect and the tolerances are not always close. IMO the older Us designed stuff like the PPI PC series stuff was some of the best, also lots of the Mantz designs.


----------



## TrickyRicky

I dont know but my CDA-7949 sounds way much better then my newer Alpines and not to mention the face is very sleek and just love all the little details on the LCD (and the black mode is very nice).


----------



## ChrisB

My 7941 reminded me of a picky woman when it came to recorded CDs because it only liked Mitsui silver and gold discs.:laugh:


----------



## chad

atxtrd said:


> I work in the pro audio industry with some of the worlds best analog audio circuit designers. One thing I see is that when we build gear we match components with very close tolerances. Now days mfrs are outsourcing their stuff to china and/or using pre-designd overseas stuff and rebranding it, they are using cheap caps ect and the tolerances are not always close. IMO the older Us designed stuff like the PPI PC series stuff was some of the best, also lots of the Mantz designs.


But given the aging of the caps and other components in the past 20 years, many, if not most "china spec" products are still probably in tighter tolerance to it's older counterpart as of now.

I would wager a bet that a miniscule percentage of "old skool gear" has had the maintenance that you or I would consider acceptable in a professional setting.


----------



## sqshoestring

I have alpine amps from the 80s I've run for years at a time that look perfect inside no blown caps, in spec. A lot of old school amps used caps that did go bad eventually. I have an insignia amp sitting here with bulged input caps. I don't know what happened to it but I've seen it before. 16v caps just like most amps are, but hey it is a cheap amp you can't expect too much. Durability is a big factor between cheap and average cost amps. People do tend to abuse cheap amps, but they break more often anyway. But 20 years on a cap is pretty good you can't really complain about that.


----------



## 87FoRunner

TrickyRicky said:


> (and the black mode is very nice).


word.


----------



## atxtrd

chad said:


> But given the aging of the caps and other components in the past 20 years, many, if not most "china spec" products are still probably in tighter tolerance to it's older counterpart as of now.
> 
> I would wager a bet that a miniscule percentage of "old skool gear" has had the maintenance that you or I would consider acceptable in a professional setting.


I agree on the maintenance part but have seen the values of caps and transformers vary in bench specs in batches from the same mfr purchased at the same time. My old Carver TFM-35 home amp took a dump last year but while it was working it was better sounding to me than some much higher priced new gear. Same with my old PPI PC Chrome stuff ( I regret selling it now). Mfrs are looking at price point, there are more kids that want a "1000 watt $200 amp" than there are people looking for something that costs more but sounds better. There are many audiophile modders who take an off the shelf piece of gear change out the caps and get a "giant killer" end result. I've got 2 Sony ES 5 disc players that are sitting in boxes waiting to be souped up with some proven and cheap mods. My partner and I worked for a guy named Neve the started another company called Burgin McDaniel Design, Kevin, my partner and longtime friend was Ruperts lead designer for 10 years and won the Audio Engineers Society TEC award in 2006 for his tape emulator design. I do some car stuff and just got a couple wholesale accounts mainly just to buy crap for my own projects and friends. If you go to the NAMM show in LA there are more overseas parts vendors than you can shake a stick at, I was blown away at the number of vendors making/selling parts at the show....like a whole floor in the Anaheim Convention Center....and selling stuff CHEAP. Of course in the end sound is subjective, specs don't mean as much to me as how something actually sounds.


----------



## chad

yet another API500 module I have to try sometime 

Also quite privy to the internals of Neve consoles.


----------



## Capt G

ryan s said:


> Who here has a cassette player in their car?


I do. I got a Nak 700 in an '86 Benz. You got a problem with that? 


An interesting thread. The last car stereo I put in was back in the eighties, until I did the Benz. Life sort of intervened between then and now. Fortunately I own more tools now....I don't thing the Sawzall or the Dremel had even been invented back then. What has changed is that ripping out the whole interior of a car has become a more daunting task. Not because of the cars themselves. Rather, you get to an age where you don't think you're old but then, it takes ten minutes to remember where you put the back seat now that you're ready to put it back in. Go ahead, laugh. I did. Then.

As for the Nak deck; I've never warmed up to the sound quality of CD's. Couple that with about every tenth one coming out of the box bad and it wasn't a tough decision. I record off of vinyl onto a ZX-7 and I've been pretty happy with the results.

As far as old school versus new, I tend to take the long view. Coincidentally someone posted in a similar thread the proposition that M-B's were a better car today because M-B could use computers to design it, and control production tolerances, while in the old days they had to just make it bigger and heavier. I cannot think of a more misinformed and incorrect statement. German precision isn't a new phenomena; they just had to be precise by hand, but precise they were. But they've lost reliability along the way, as anyone with a newer Benz can tell you, and it's not because the improvements in the basic technology haven't been realized. It's because the auto industry has gone past the point of using computers and interfaces to make proven technology work to the point where they make cars with six or more computers and they all have to talk with one another. Four different climate zones in a car may be nice but, it's incredibly complex no matter how you make it happen. The average car is better today but, if you want all the bells and whistles you're going to pay a price in reliability.

I'd guess I'd side with old school for the most part, if only in terms of reliability. I remember an old pair of Radio Shack box speakers I had for a time that surprisingly held their own in sound quality to the Visonik David's which went for five times the cost. I had them for a year or so and then sold the vehicle, but sold the speakers to a friend. Almost a decade later I was at a friend's garage and another friend came in with a pick up truck with some suspiciously familiar box speakers mounted high in the cab. Four owners and nearly a decade later, something like seven vehicles, and they were still in good shape. I've got a pair of 3" Grundig's out in the garage with over a decade of use on them that I just haven't found a vehicle to put under them. But I've not kept up enough on car audio to make any blanket statements.

I can say this about technology, especially electronics technology, and that is if you want to find something to become revered old school, buy it at the peak of the technology...just as it's well and truly being eclipsed by the new. Best VCR is the one I still own that they practically gave me because no one was going to buy it otherwise. I'd say the same about my Thorens turntable.

I'll complicate the above statement by throwing in the "bells and whistles" caveat. While my VCR has been reliable and it does everything a VCR ever could, it's as nothing to the first generation VCR's that were top-loading with the lever handle for the carriage. You can still find one occasionally at a garage sale and seven out of ten of them plug in and work. 

I know personally that the new gas water heaters, with the sealed combustion chamber and electronic gas control valve are junk compared to the old school ones of ten years ago. Refrigerators now have a documented record of reliability inverse to price. Add all the bells and whistles, and you need a computer to run the thing, and when that goes on the fritz (or a sensor, etc...tied into it) your food gets warm. Ford's 4.2L six cylinder does a lot of things sorta okay but it'll never approach the longevity and reliability of the 300ci six it replaced. There's a long list of stuff like that within technology.

I don't doubt that old school amps, which everyone seems to be focusing on, were heavier built and last longer than today's models. I'd say that market changes have lead to that, in part. Cars is the 70's and 80's didn't have much for stereo and if you laid out the long green for an aftermarket unit you expected it to last, as did the manufacturer. And for a decade or so, it seemed every young person was buying an aftermarket car stereo. Today at least half that market is content with factory equipped and, perhaps, those who go more high end may be more fickle about how long they'll own the car or the stereo. The stereos and amps of today may "do" more things (we could use a little less of that on head units, no?) and they may be in a leaner package, but it's an open question as to their longevity. Nakamichi didn't offer auto-reverse on their cassette decks because it complicated head alignment....and it broke. Unless you knew that, in the later years of cassette deck sales, it seemed odd to the average to high-end buyer why they'd have to pay more for a Nak than they would the Pioneer model of the week.

The interesting question is, what is tomorrow's "old school"?


----------



## TrickyRicky

Tape sounds way better than CD's. The only problem is that on a tape you can only put so much "data" so you get a few songs and that tapes are pretty bulky in size.


----------



## ryan s

Capt G said:


> I do. I got a Nak 700 in an '86 Benz. You got a problem with that?


If it's an SEC, definitely not :laugh:



TrickyRicky said:


> Tape sounds way better than CD's. The only problem is that on a tape you can only put so much "data" so you get a few songs and that tapes are pretty bulky in size.


Discounting the (probable) monumental effort it would take to make an average recording of a tape sound like the equivalent CD, perhaps...grab a copy of "Dookie" by Green Day and the CD sounds way better than the tape. The cassette was the first album I ever bought and I have the CD too 

I have a few records, a bunch of CDs, and tons of digital format music...haven't used cassettes (outside a classroom) in over 10 years. My headunit produces enough hiss to satisfy my desire for more :laugh:


----------



## Capt G

TrickyRicky said:


> Tape sounds way better than CD's. The only problem is that on a tape you can only put so much "data" so you get a few songs and that tapes are pretty bulky in size.


True. Most of my road trips are just under a thousand miles, at extra-legal speeds, and a case of 24 tapes seems to suffice. And, other than an eight track, nothing is easier to load while doing 80 on 80.

Heh heh! I remember a debate in high school about loading eight tracks while drag racing. Do you load after you shift into second, or after you're up in third? After third would seem to make most sense but, most found they gave JT's Aqualung a shove forward right after hitting second. We spent a lot of time contemplating such esoterica.

Somebody earlier mentioned eight tracks coming stock in-dash in cars...I musta missed that; every one I ever saw was bolted down, angling upwards, to the transmission hump. No way would they fit in the dash panel, even after removing the AM radio.


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## ChrisB

When I was in college, I had a 1981 Crown Vic that came with an in-dash 8 track/am radio. I must have replaced everything you could on that car between 1993 and 1996. Radiator, exhaust, alternator, AC compressor. When I graduated from college, my rear main seal had finally gone out on that car. The variable venturi was always one tick between running and flooding. Yeah, I'll take a modern day car!


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## Capt G

TrickyRicky said:


> Tape sounds way better than CD's. The only problem is that on a tape you can only put so much "data" so you get a few songs and that tapes are pretty bulky in size.


True. Most of my road trips are just under a thousand miles, at extra-legal speeds, and a case of 24 tapes seems to suffice. And, other than an eight track, nothing is easier to load while doing 80 on 80.

Heh heh! I remember a debate in high school about loading eight tracks while drag racing. Do you load after you shift into second, or after you're up in third? After third would seem to make most sense but, most found they gave JT's Aqualung a shove forward right after hitting second. We spent a lot of time contemplating such esoterica.

Somebody earlier mentioned eight tracks coming stock in-dash in cars...I musta missed that; every one I ever saw was bolted down, angling upwards, to the transmission hump. No way would they fit in most dash panels, even after removing the AM radio.


----------



## Capt G

ryan s said:


> If it's an SEC, definitely not :laugh:
> 
> 
> Discounting the (probable) monumental effort it would take to make an average recording of a tape sound like the equivalent CD, perhaps...grab a copy of "Dookie" by Green Day and the CD sounds way better than the tape. The cassette was the first album I ever bought and I have the CD too
> 
> I have a few records, a bunch of CDs, and tons of digital format music...haven't used cassettes (outside a classroom) in over 10 years. My headunit produces enough hiss to satisfy my desire for more :laugh:


Nah, it's an SEL. Since you're 26 years old I'll let you in on something I didn't learn until well into my thirties. While cars like the SEC move us in the way the stodgy appearing SEL does not, if you're after hassle-free high speed transit you pick a grey, or similar color, SEL and John Law tends to view your passage as just another doddering octogenarian. Cops that used to compete to pull me over in flashier or sports cars, largely ignored me in the grey Benz. And they had no idea the Benz was a 450SEL6.9, the fastest production sedan in the world for over a decade. Back then Benz sedans looked slow which was, and is, all to the good in arriving in a timely fashion with driving record intact. Oh yeah, and they had a heck of a back seat. Now there's an area where "old school" definitely puts "new school" back on the trailer.


----------



## Capt G

ChrisB said:


> When I was in college, I had a 1981 Crown Vic that came with an in-dash 8 track/am radio. I must have replaced everything you could on that car between 1993 and 1996. Radiator, exhaust, alternator, AC compressor. When I graduated from college, my rear main seal had finally gone out on that car. The variable venturi was always one tick between running and flooding. Yeah, I'll take a modern day car!


The 80's LTD, which became the Crown Vic, was a low point in the world of Ford, though most all American cars of that era were outright lousy. The cars had 1970's Detroit quality, with 1980's smog emissions technology, which meant they couldn't pass a VW Beetle or a gas station, though they frequently broke down trying either.

That being said, there aren't a lot of cars today that don't need serious work once they reach the 12-15 year age bracket you mention. One of the differences between then and now though, is that you could have easily done all that work yourself....and probably did. Today you need serious test equipment just to tell you what might be wrong with the car. Dig into a 15 year old "climate control system" trying to get some heat in your car and it'll make you wish you had that old four cable heater box from the Ford! Cars are better today but, there are no simple fixes in them anymore. I spent my money putting a cassette deck in the glove box of a '71 Beetle instead of attempting to replace the heater control wires (an impossible task in any event) and so just crawled under the car in September and April to open or close the heater boxes. Of course, back then you could look under the hood and have a pretty good idea of what everything you saw did for the car. It took modern technology to ensure you a walk home just for having the temerity to pull the radio out in your buddy's driveway! 

Don't get me wrong...that LTD/Crown Vic was a car it took little effort to hate and boy, were they ugly? About the only good thing to be said for them was that they were the preferred auto platform for demolition derbies at county fairs everywhere!


----------



## Mike_Dee

Here is one fact you're forgetting. In the late 80's, and 90's, almost all the brands that today are mass produced in China, and Korea, were handmade here in the USA. Brands like Orion, U.S. Amps, PPI, and a boatload of others were good stuff.

You can still get great gear. Sinfoni, MMats, DD, Steg, Kicker, MTX, Audison, Celestra. It's just great brands that started off here with great quality have moved overseas.


----------



## Capt G

tinkletwink1 said:


> Are you kidding me? So everyone in the world switched to CD's because they were shiny?


I'm going to bet that you've never recorded off vinyl to tape on a decent cassette deck with Dolby B or C. Everyone in the world switched to CD's for home use because they were convenient...no one thought the sound superior to vinyl. And the early year CD players in cars were like having a turntable on the passenger seat the way they skipped over every bump...except with a turntable, you got your record back, while the CD player might never surrender the disc.

Lemme put it this way...I've never bought a bad sounding LP, while I've gotten a few dozen CD's that won't play right out of the box and I've two Righteous Brothers CD's that sound so "thin" you'd think someone castrated the boys. They're shiny drink coasters out on the deck now.

And most of my contemporaries rarely bought pre-recorded tapes; we could make a better copy from an LP, on better tape, with even just above average decks. Call me a Luddite but I don't think anything has equaled vinyl yet.


----------



## Capt G

tinkletwink1 said:


> How were cd's more convenient? I see why ipods and compressed music are more convenient....but cd's were no more convenient. I don't miss the fuzzy sound and lack of a high signal to noise ratio from a tape.


CD's were more convenient than LP's in the home audio market. People could buy a CD carousel that held 300 CD's in the space required for an amplifier, and play them automatically. 

Their emergence in the auto market was bumpy and prolonged; my 2002 Ford work truck still came with a cassette deck. Cassettes had a good long run in retrospect. I presume that the fuzzy sound of tape you refer to is cassette tape. A good recording deck, and playback unit, would eliminate that for you. All car stereo solves the signal to noise ratio problem with the volume knob, especially if you run Goodyears. Ironically, cassettes doomed some of the best home audio sound available at the time; auto-reversing reel-to-reel tape decks. One of these days I'll get mine repaired from the trauma sustained from an inquisitive kid. As I now dimly recall, I could get two hours of hands-free high quality music off of one reel. It didn't matter; cassette had already won the convenience battle of the time.


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## Mark the Bold

tinkletwink1 said:


> How were cd's more convenient?


Two things: Track Forward. Track Backward. 

Lets see a tape do that?


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## xfett

I had an Alpine 5700 DAT player that could track skip... and it sounded waaaay better than cd. I wish I didnt sell that thing.


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## chad

tinkletwink1 said:


> Are you kidding me? So everyone in the world switched to CD's because they were shiny?


I beg your pardon? Remember he said TAPE! That's painting with a pretty wide brush....


----------



## sqshoestring

In college my brother recorded VHS tapes with 6 hours of music, he said that was the best deal going for party music. I used metal cassettes with dolby C a lot, quality was very good off an LP on a good home system. They were much more handy to use in a car, I never understood why you had to take the CD out of the box to use it....why go back to a mini LP that is hard to handle and gets damaged, and I still hate them. I've had three players that will not play some DVDs, junk media platform IMO conceived in what the 80s? Amazing we can finally go to solid state now after 30 years of crap. They should have made something like a Zip disk optical or not.

Oops, wait CDs were developed mostly in the 70s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc
And released to market in '82.


----------



## ryan s

Capt G said:


> Nah, it's an SEL. Since you're 26 years old I'll let you in on something I didn't learn until well into my thirties. While cars like the SEC move us in the way the stodgy appearing SEL does not, if you're after hassle-free high speed transit you pick a grey, or similar color, SEL and John Law tends to view your passage as just another doddering octogenarian. Cops that used to compete to pull me over in flashier or sports cars, largely ignored me in the grey Benz. And they had no idea the Benz was a 450SEL6.9, the fastest production sedan in the world for over a decade. Back then Benz sedans looked slow which was, and is, all to the good in arriving in a timely fashion with driving record intact. Oh yeah, and they had a heck of a back seat. Now there's an area where "old school" definitely puts "new school" back on the trailer.


I'd feel like a third world dictator or mafioso driving around in a black W126 long wheelbase, especially with tinted windows :laugh: It's too bad they're too big for where I live, since I see quite a few for sale for a reasonable amount...especially the V8s, even factoring in maintaining a car as old as I. 

And it's too bad I don't have a chauffeur...at 6'3" I need rear legroom and an SEL would be perfect.

There are few cars I'd rather have as a coupe rather than a sedan or estate/touring, but the b-pillarless design of the W126 (and W124 and BMW E32) is a design I love 



chad said:


> I beg your pardon? Remember he said TAPE! That's painting with a pretty wide brush....


Time to mount one up in the Civic?


----------



## Bluliner

Mark the Bold said:


> Two things: Track Forward. Track Backward.
> 
> Lets see a tape do that?


I had a B&O turntable that could do that. Very cool piece..


----------



## Brian Steele

Mark the Bold said:


> Two things: Track Forward. Track Backward.
> 
> Lets see a tape do that?


There were a number of solutions for tape that did just that. Sanyo' AMSS system, for example. Engage it and it would FF or REW to the next blank spot on the tape.


----------



## Brian Steele

Capt G said:


> Everyone in the world switched to CD's for home use because they were convenient...no one thought the sound superior to vinyl.


LOL - what have you been smoking?

After my very first listen to a CD (On a Sony DT2 portable player to boot), I stopped buying LPs. Better dynamics, significantly lower noise levels, audibly lower distortion, less "phasiness" and no more snap, crackle and pop...


----------



## Capt G

Brian Steele said:


> LOL - what have you been smoking?
> 
> After my very first listen to a CD (On a Sony DT2 portable player to boot), I stopped buying LPs. Better dynamics, significantly lower noise levels, audibly lower distortion, less "phasiness" and no more snap, crackle and pop...


So you never did replace the stylus and get it aligned?


----------



## Brian Steele

Capt G said:


> So you never did replace the stylus and get it aligned?


I replaced the stylus more times than I care to count, and no amount of "alignment" will get rid of the background noise and snap-crackle-pop


----------



## Bluliner

Brian Steele said:


> I replaced the stylus more times than I care to count, and no amount of "alignment" will get rid of the background noise and snap-crackle-pop


Way back when they had a record brush that was phenomenal at removing those noises. Unfortunately, it's now illegal...

Why?

It used polonium to get rid of static. How awesome is that? I can show pics if you want or if you live near a google search for 'staticmaster +polonium'.


----------



## TrickyRicky

The snap crakle and pop where from dust on the vinyls, lol.


----------



## quality_sound

Mike_Dee said:


> Here is one fact you're forgetting. In the late 80's, and 90's, almost all the brands that today are mass produced in China, and Korea, were handmade here in the USA. Brands like Orion, U.S. Amps, PPI, and a boatload of others were good stuff.
> 
> You can still get great gear. Sinfoni, MMats, DD, Steg, Kicker, MTX, Audison, Celestra. It's just great brands that started off here with great quality have moved overseas.


Kicker hasn't been made in the USA in a LOOOOONG time


----------



## quality_sound

sqshoestring said:


> In college my brother recorded VHS tapes with 6 hours of music, he said that was the best deal going for party music. I used metal cassettes with dolby C a lot, quality was very good off an LP on a good home system. They were much more handy to use in a car, I never understood why you had to take the CD out of the box to use it....why go back to a mini LP that is hard to handle and gets damaged, and I still hate them. I've had three players that will not play some DVDs, junk media platform IMO conceived in what the 80s? Amazing we can finally go to solid state now after 30 years of crap. They should have made something like a Zip disk optical or not.
> 
> Oops, wait CDs were developed mostly in the 70s.
> Compact Disc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> And released to market in '82.


And the audio cassette was originally designed as a dictation tool, not a method for recording high-quality audio. 

EVERY medium has it's drawbacks. Every single one of them. Sitting on your high horse looking down your nose at the "lowly" cd because it was designed in the late 70's is less than informed, to say the least, especially considering the audio cassette was created in the late 50s and the reel-to-reel in the MID-THIRTIES!. 

Note, I'm not saying one if better than another as they all have issues to overcome. This is strictly addressing your snobbish, and apparently uninformed, attitude regarding the cd.


----------



## 1sicls1

I always used old school gear, well because I'm old school and its what I remember when I was a teenager just getting into this hobby. However, I have now changed my ways and switched setup's from my old school Rockford Fosgate to Diamond Audio and Massive Audio. Couldn't be happier, sometimes life needs change. As long as you go with reputable equipment and DO your research I say you can't go wrong.


----------



## Mark the Bold

Brian Steele said:


> There were a number of solutions for tape that did just that. Sanyo' AMSS system, for example. Engage it and it would FF or REW to the next blank spot on the tape.


Hey thats cute. Tell you what. You pop in your Sanyo AMSS tape of Led Zeppelin and go from track 1 (Black Dog) to track iv (Stairway to Heaven). What are we talking here? Three button presses followed by a pause on each. A CD is near instantaneous.

The CD is vastly superior media than tape for that reason. You could program track playlists as well. Sanyo AMSS could not do that.

Yes, yes Im as nostalgic as the next cat. But when I read things like that I feel like I'm talking to a farmer who's pining for the good ol' days when they used to harvest and thresh corn by hand....


----------



## Brian Steele

Mark the Bold said:


> Hey thats cute. Tell you what. You pop in your Sanyo AMSS tape of Led Zeppelin and go from track 1 (Black Dog) to track iv (Stairway to Heaven). What are we talking here? Three button presses followed by a pause on each. A CD is near instantaneous.


I didn't say that the system would do all of what you can do with a CD today. But your original statement concerned moving forward or backward a track, and you suggested there wasn't a solution back then. There was.


----------



## stills

what happen to just letting an album play?


----------



## quality_sound

Mood swings.


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## cleansoundz

Good thread. I think old school is good but the person who makes the comparison should try out both new and old and come to their own conclusions.


----------



## cleansoundz

1sicls1 said:


> I always used old school gear, well because I'm old school and its what I remember when I was a teenager just getting into this hobby. However, I have now changed my ways and switched setup's from my old school Rockford Fosgate to Diamond Audio and Massive Audio. Couldn't be happier, sometimes life needs change. As long as you go with reputable equipment and DO your research I say you can't go wrong.


Very well put.


----------



## quality_sound

cajunner said:


> everything wears out, but optical and flash storage is repeatable performance until the the disc breaks down from age, tapes had drop-outs that were harder to ignore than what error correction sounds like, and vinyl wears just about as fast, the one thing nobody can argue is the digital version means you only have to pay for it once, and that's reason enough to call it superior tech.


What about when the drive fails? Digital is just as easily lost or corrupted. NO medium is immune to that.


----------



## ChrisB

I think this is the reason that some people swear that their old school amp sounds so much better than newer amplifiers:










Now I have an idea as to why these individuals hear so much detail, resolution, and any other audiophile term that they can think of to describe why this particular brand sounds so much better than anything else they have tried. It's because the amplifier is adding it by coloring the signal with distortion and equalization.

Unfortunately, that measurement is NOT a mistake!


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Warm and fuzzy midbass and midrange and crisp highs. Wonder which amp that is


----------



## Bluliner

ChrisB said:


> I think this is the reason that some people swear that their old school amp sounds so much better than newer amplifiers:
> 
> Now I have an idea as to why these individuals hear so much detail, resolution, and any other audiophile term that they can think of to describe why this particular brand sounds so much better than anything else they have tried. It's because the amplifier is adding it by coloring the signal with distortion and equalization.
> 
> Unfortunately, that measurement is NOT a mistake!


So what?

If an amp adds or takes away something AND the listener enjoys the music more with that coloring; who cares? In the end, everything is about the sound that hits the listener's ears. Who really gives a rat's ass about wattage or a flat freq response if it doesn't 'sound good'?

Sounding good on paper and sounding good to your ears are 2 different things. 

Does a Gibson Les Paul have a flat frequency response? Mine sure don't and they certainly do not when plugged into my old Vox AC30 (noisy thing). But boy does it sound good...


----------



## chad

there is a difference between reproduction of music and assembling an instrument (and you know damn well that an amplifier is as big as a part of the guitar as the guitar is) to play said music to be reproduced.


----------



## ChrisB

Bluliner said:


> So what?
> 
> If an amp adds or takes away something AND the listener enjoys the music more with that coloring; who cares? In the end, everything is about the sound that hits the listener's ears. Who really gives a rat's ass about wattage or a flat freq response if it doesn't 'sound good'?


Ahh, but does it make the old school piece of gear "the best" because it intentionally colors the sound with distortion and an artificial boost on the highs? Most competently designed modern day amplifiers will measure ruler flat, thus leaving it up to the end user to correct any environmental anomalies. With the old school piece that I posted the measurement on, the end user doesn't get that choice.



Hillbilly SQ said:


> Warm and fuzzy midbass and midrange and crisp highs. Wonder which amp that is


I'm not telling!


----------



## Bluliner

ChrisB said:


> Ahh, but does it make the old school piece of gear "the best" because it intentionally colors the sound with distortion and an artificial boost on the highs? Most competently designed modern day amplifiers will measure ruler flat, *thus leaving it up to the end user to correct any environmental anomalies*. With the old school piece that I posted the measurement on, the end user doesn't get that choice.


Most end users do not know what environmental anomalies are nor do they have the equipment and/or patience to do so. 

Sounding 'good' is as simple as sounding good. If the built-in loud button on some amplifiers pleases the end user, great. That's what it's all about. 

But until we listen to music by shoving wires into our brains, a flat frequency response doesn't really mean much as there are several electronic components, several drivers, and an ever changing listening environment we have to deal with. 

Sure, the argument that a flat response from 20-20k is valid and having an amp that colors it isn't ideal. However, our ears and the mushy bits between them don't operate that way. Sounding good, or even 'the best', is highly subjective. 

Who listens to their audio system and marvels at the flat response? I never met a person who has. But have you ever seen someone sit in their car and their eyes bug out of their head b/c it sounds 'awesome!"? Sure you have, and that's the goal. 

A flat response doesn't do that all the time. Sounding good does. 

There may be a correlation between a flat response and a sound system that pleases the user. However, I do not believe there is causation.


----------



## Lanson

That's great and all, but when the same amp manufacturers claim ultra low distortion, clean reproduction and the tests say otherwise, I back Chris up.


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## ChrisB

fourthmeal said:


> That's great and all, but when the same amp manufacturers claim ultra low distortion, clean reproduction and the tests say otherwise, I back Chris up.


Believe it or not, a +/- percentage amount was NOT listed for this amplifier from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, but it was rated at .05% THD from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, which clearly isn't the case.:laugh:


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## cleansoundz

There is truly a difference in sound using an amp with a ruler flat response vs. an amp with a non ruler flat response.


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## MikeT1982

I have to go with the group that says that in the olden days the companies cared more and were more competitive so overbuilt the equipment (like the soundstream references' circuit boards bolted together, art amps water cooled, us amps and whatnot using the transistors that were barely working and a ton of them and so on) It seems like the cheaper build trend, more bang for buck, squeezing each internal component further to get that, has become the majority. Of course other things have improved othewise with features and high volt preamps and tons of stuff i don't know about since i haven't followed that closely for the past few years, but i have enough and love the stuff enough to notice the build quality changes.


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## cleansoundz

This is the best thread of car audio old school vs. new school that I have read to date.


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## cleansoundz

My 1998 punch 240.4 on my mids and highs was full, fllat and crystal clear BUT had an annoying alternator whine. My 2000 power bd1000a1 was a monster but had an annoying turn on pop. My RF T1000-1BDCP and T400-4 are small, powerful and quiet as a whistle. Without the annoying minute whistle I would prefer my punch 240.4 in a heartbeat. To replace my power bd1000a1, I have a power bd1000.1 (updated version with a subsonic filter). In my opinion though I think the newer 2007 power series is every bit as good as the old. I only believe this to be with the power series though.


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## xfett

I dont care if an amp is old school / new school .. made by ????? what ever company who claims to be the best, and test shows that particular amp to have the best thd and butt loads of power............ its all up to the end user. I might think X amp is the greatest thing since bp&j but someone might think Y amp is all warm and fuzzy and talks to jesus. Have you talked to an obsessed audiophile who claims that $280 ceramic cable supports makes his/hers music sound open and tighter midbass response just by keeping their cables off the carpet/floor ????.......... its all about the end user.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

xfett said:


> I dont care if an amp is old school / new school .. made by ????? what ever company who claims to be the best, and test shows that particular amp to have the best thd and butt loads of power............ its all up to the end user. I might think X amp is the greatest thing since bp&j but someone might think Y amp is all warm and fuzzy and talks to jesus. Have you talked to an obsessed audiophile who claims that $280 ceramic cable supports makes his/hers music sound open and tighter midbass response just by keeping their cables off the carpet/floor ????.......... its all about the end user.


DING DING DING DING DING!

I love my frontstage amp so much I almost believe it talks to Jesus but it's huge and a lot of people wouldn't be able to fit it...and it has a turn-off pop. What amazes me is how many people think their gear is the best and if you don't like what they bring to the table there's something wrong with you. My system is one of those that you'll either love or hate. Those that hate it have a system that swings to the complete opposite of how mine sounds tonally and I'm cool with that. I don't like fullrange class d amps for highs but have heard some amazing systems with them. Stuck in the past maybe?:laugh:lol at audiophiles with their ceramic cable stands. I'd tell them I use coat hangers just to mess with them


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## cleansoundz

FG79 said:


> Two comments:
> 
> 
> Nowadays the amps (and head units) sound thinner and the speaker sound brighter. The subs also sound boomier.
> 
> Somehow, brightness and midrange suckout got confused with "detail", "accuracy" and "speed". Almost without fail in most cases, the "best" speaker line from any given company is always a bit more top end heavy than the 2nd or 3rd tier lines. Not always, but most of the time.
> 
> Many modern amps "lay down the watts", but there physical footprint is often too small/light to give the substance. Meanwhile, an old school amp on average does 25-50 wpc...and was bigger.
> 
> Most would think that's just obsolete technology, but then you listen to it and it sounds better.
> 
> Rap music emphasized subbass over midbass, and subs started to reflect this market trend....and even worse, "excursion" started to replace cone area, efficiency and reasonable box sizes to make bass.
> 
> You want big bass but you only want it from 2 12s in a 1.0 - 1.5 cubic foot enclosure? Or even better, you have an 18" sub with anything more than a few mm xmax...as if that's not enough, LOL.
> 
> I would say of all the categories....subs are the worst of all, esp. from an SQ standpoint.
> 
> So the biggest problem is even IF 2011 engineering can begin to outpace say 1990 engineering (and MARGINALLY at best), the energy is going into the wrong place.
> 
> It pisses me off royally that I have to scour ebay for old school stuff. And as much as I like that gear, sometimes you don't find one in good condition, or it needs servicing, etc. The old school stuff is definitely more high maintenance, and while this is more tolerable in a home setting, it can be annoying in a car setting.
> 
> Car audio today from a manufacturing standpoint is more profitable to make convenient, feature rich gear than make cutting edge SQ masterpieces, at least in the US.
> 
> It's not a coincidence that all the best stuff these days is JDM.


True, very true. My T400-4 sounds great but the sound is a little thin. When I put in my RF 240.4, my music sounds full and detailed. Using the Punch 240.4 screwed up my ears to a point where I may not be able to listen to the T400-4 much longer. When I drive my 300zx with the punch 200a4 and power bd1000a1, the sound is exactly like my punch 240.4, smooth, full and detailed. I will see how longer my ears can last with the T400-4.


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## my6x9s

i have not read the whole thread but i want to say the new t-amps are awesome for size but till they put out the power of say a harmon kardon tc600 they are just not there yet so back to the topic i have a collection of old school amps punch 45,75,150 harmon kardon first attempt and a old altec lansing i think ill have to post in a show off thread i love the old school equipment but as time progressed i find that say that punch 45(still running solid) that i had on 6.5 CD(before they became CDT) now i run SST 6.5 yes they are cheaper speakers but wow they still put out nice and well i didnt have a RTA then in life i got one now and they are amazing for cheap door speakers 

conclusion: amps and crossovers where made better then but no on the fly control like the new digital x overs all my "old equipment" is still as good as day it was sold.
as for speakers the new technology is a wow . i just seen that sundown sa-8 pull a 151 on a TL meter so yeah it was a burp but wow never could do that with any of the older subs... so its up to the listener ... love the "old" and would never get rid of it till the t-amps are up to higher wattages..... but for speakers klipch still rock but thats for home otherwise there has been huge improvements in xmax control spiders and well even dustcaps, and motor flux density 
yes seen a Soundigital 3k in action nothing can touch the size vs wattage but i wonder will i see that amp in 10 years from now still working


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## cleansoundz

I have used the old and new and I believe the new offers more power in a smaller package. For me I do not like Zenon boards that many other companies use and that is 95% of the products out there. If I let my ears make the decision and not think old school vs new school, for mids and highs old school, for bass new school. I have been lucky enough in the past to sniff out mint quality old school equipment at outrageously cheap prices and it's very hard to resist. If a person can find old school equipment in mint condition for equipment that they fondly remember then 9 times out of 10 they will pick old school. Not that it's better but because over time the equipment has proven itself to be great sounding, better built and very very reliable. New school equipment cannot offer that to it's consumers at the present time. If people felt that some new school equipment was still built in the USA, overbuilt and were made by the original companies with their own designs and not off the shelf designs then this thread wouldn't exist.


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## cleansoundz

When reading this thread, no one asked the question "how many of today's companies have their own in-house engineers to help them develop new products. JL Audio, RF, MTX, Brax, Audison, Zapco and their may be others. These days if we open up the most amplifiers sundown, atomic, RD audio, DC Audio, etc, they all look the same. Clarion is a cheaper version of Arc Audio because they share the same buildhouse. MTX and Exonic Car Audio at one time shared the same buildhouse. PPI's attempt to revive the company destroyed by DEI attempts to mirror products from PPIs gloried past. The list goes on and on. This happens more times than in the past 80's, 90's and early 2000's. This does not attack the build quality or power of today's products.


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## nubz69

IMO the only thing that is old school that is worthwhile are amps. Without even considering trends, size, power, etc the fact is that the A/B circuit has not changed much since it's inception. Yes you can implement different A/B typologies and changes but it is still the same basic design. Some of the older amps sounded better because they used higher quality parts, more robust designs and were focused on creating the best sound, not the most power.

The biggest revolution in car audio amplifiers has been the full range class D amplifier. You can now have 6X100wrms in a size much smaller then an old 25X2 amplifier. Class D is not yet at the level of class A amplifiers but they are damn close to a well designed class A/B. Old school will sound a whole lot better for the money, for now. Once class D is on the same level as a class A, then you will see the interest in old school amps die.

For now old school amps are a great way of getting a high end sound for a much smaller investment when compared to current amps of the same quality. There will be a day when a $50 class D (or something like it) will surpass even the highest end amplifier by today's standards.


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## cleansoundz

Well put nubz69. I heard JL Audio's full range class D amplifier and walked away very impressed but the price was a total turnoff. Other companies are putting together full range class D amps. Unfortunately these companies will be copying off of each other as well.


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## oldno7brand

Give me old blaupunkt heads, A/D/S PH 15 or Gray case Powerclass gear any day of the week.

Still rocking my 7949 for 10 years and running.
I even have Sirius SIR-ALP1 running through it via the external display/xm tuner lol (Desperately clinging to my head)

Sorry CDA-117's and 4 different amp companies all with the same boards don't do it for me (What a joke)


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## ryanr7386

nubz69 said:


> IMO the only thing that is old school that is worthwhile are amps. Without even considering trends, size, power, etc the fact is that the A/B circuit has not changed much since it's inception. Yes you can implement different A/B typologies and changes but it is still the same basic design. Some of the older amps sounded better because they used higher quality parts, more robust designs and were focused on creating the best sound, not the most power.
> 
> The biggest revolution in car audio amplifiers has been the full range class D amplifier. You can now have 6X100wrms in a size much smaller then an old 25X2 amplifier. Class D is not yet at the level of class A amplifiers but they are damn close to a well designed class A/B. Old school will sound a whole lot better for the money, for now. Once class D is on the same level as a class A, then you will see the interest in old school amps die.
> 
> For now old school amps are a great way of getting a high end sound for a much smaller investment when compared to current amps of the same quality. There will be a day when a $50 class D (or something like it) will surpass even the highest end amplifier by today's standards.


I would agree with you on the amps being the only worthwhile O/S gear to persue and would add a a few speaker manufacturers as well. Such as a/d/s, MB Quart, Boston Acoustics etc. They overbuilt there gear and that's why they are still around today and still playing very well. I wouldn't trade my a/d/s speaker components for the last peice of a_s on earth. Well maybe I'm stretching it a little.


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## ChrisB

cleansoundz said:


> Well put nubz69. I heard JL Audio's full range class D amplifier and walked away very impressed but the price was a total turnoff. Other companies are putting together full range class D amps. Unfortunately these companies will be copying off of each other as well.


I just went from Class AB on my mids/highs and Class GH on the sub to a HD900/5. Sure it is pricey, but for the little space it takes up, it was well worth the investment. I was unfair to the JL Audio amp too because I spent more hours trying to find something that it doesn't reproduce the same as I remembered it than I did with any other amplifier.

On the other hand, it is nice to have my trunk back versus dedicating 1/4 of it to amplifiers.:laugh:


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## TrickyRicky

ChrisB said:


> I just went from Class AB on my mids/highs and Class GH on the sub to a HD900/5. Sure it is pricey, but for the little space it takes up, it was well worth the investment. I was unfair to the JL Audio amp too because I spent more hours trying to find something that it doesn't reproduce the same as I remembered it than I did with any other amplifier.
> 
> On the other hand, it is nice to have my trunk back versus dedicating 1/4 of it to amplifiers.:laugh:


So I assume your liking it so far?


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## ChrisB

TrickyRicky said:


> So I assume your liking it so far?


Here's my review of it: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/110459-jl-audio-hd900-5-review.html

As for old school gear being the best. I only have one thing to say... pfft :laugh:


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## NucFusion

Back in the 90's I ran a pretty basic set up with Rockford Fosgate punch dsm amps, you know, the cheater ones..whole system rated at 100 watts, but pushing closer to about 400. It got pretty loud with those amps. Of course, they would get so hot that you could cook an egg on them. While I do think the older systems were way overbuilt (still have the 2 RF amps and they work great, but haven't used them in an install in over 10 years), I have to say that I seem to get very similar performance out of all the gear I have tried since 2000 in multiple cars. I know you could debate old school versus new school SQ all day long, but other than the nastalgia I have for car audio in the 90's, I have to say that I just don't see a performance gap. If anything, I kind of like running my jl xd 500/3 over my punch 40 and 60. It produces similar total power, has an extremely tiny footprint allowing for installation anywhere I want, tons of options on the amp and is light on my charging/electrical system.

I think, if anything, gear has gotten too complex and maybe that is the problem. Back in the day, you had to optimize your install, because you didn't have all the electronic choices of time alignment, phase shift, 30 band eqs for every channel, infinitely adjustable crossover frequencies and slopes. Now you can just throw speakers anywhere and make adjustments on every peice of equipment and hope you get lucky and it all sounds good. No more maximizing equal pathlengths and crossovers with only 1frequency/slope.

Now, will todays gear still be working in installs 10, 15, 20 years from now? Who knows, but with my track record, I'm sure I won't keep any of the gear in there more than a few years and I'm pretty sure it will last at least that long and sound good doing it.


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## PPI_GUY

Some of you know me and my fondness for older P-P-I. Heck, look at my username! 
Until a few weeks ago, in my daily driver I was using a P-P-I 2150AM wired at 2 ohm stereo (producing 600 watts thereabouts) on a set of 10" dvc subs and a P-P-I Pro Mos 50 wired at 1 ohms stereo(200 watts x 2) on components. I thought the system as setup sounded pretty good and neither amp ever shutdown or even strained with the wide variety of music I listen to. Plus, they are solid, Darth Vader, mean as all get-out looking, *BLACK*. 
But, those new J-L XD amps really caught my eye. 

So, I replaced my 2150 with a J-L XD600/1 and Pro 50 with a XD400/4. Upon doing a quick initial gain set and level adjust, I did not immediately notice a huge difference. However, a few days ago, I found the time to setup the system as it should have been done the first-time. The difference is amazing! The little XD amps have more punch, headroom and impact than the older stuff ever thought about. They barely even get warm and are noticeably easier on my electrical system. And the footprint is a fraction of what the older amps needed. 

Bottomline? The old school stuff has held up amazingly (20 years) but, it won't be going back into the daily driver.
And the cherry on it all for me was learning from Manville Smith that the same engineer who designed my old Mosfet and Pro Mosfet series amps was the same guy who worked on the new XD Series. THAT is cool.


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## ChrisB

PPI_GUY said:


> Bottomline? The old school stuff has held up amazingly (20 years) but, it won't be going back into the daily driver.
> And the cherry on it all for me was learning from Manville Smith that the same engineer who designed my old Mosfet and Pro Mosfet series amps was the same guy who worked on the new XD Series. THAT is cool.


If you look closely at the PPI Art series amplifiers, the Xtant amplifiers, and the JL Audio Amplifiers, you can somewhat see the logical progression of Bruce's designs. I think it is rather neat myself after sitting down and looking at guts from all the various amplifiers.


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## 9mmmac

I think the proliferation of SMD's and new power supply topologies flattens response, but also colors the sound. They seem to be more harsh at the top, and boomier on the bottom. Of course, it's very subtle, but I will stand firm and say it. Maybe it's the super crossovers everybody wants to put in their designs. Seems to me there's just more "stuff", (as small as it may be) that a lot of people don't know how to use, or don't use it at all. Dig DAT's Sinfoni amps he has for sale. Itty bitty signal in, big signal out. THAT'S how an amp should be done!

But hey, if somebody wants to thow me some JL HD or the new Alpine digitals, I'll rock them all day long!


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## PPI_GUY

ChrisB said:


> If you look closely at the PPI Art series amplifiers, the Xtant amplifiers, and the JL Audio Amplifiers, you can somewhat see the logical progression of Bruce's designs. I think it is rather neat myself after sitting down and looking at guts from all the various amplifiers.


Chris, I guess for me, the Xtant amplifiers are the missing bridge from PPI to JL. Xtant was originally started during a time period when I was literally 'out' of car audio all together. Add to that my personal dislike for their cosmetic appearance and you can see why my knowledge about them is limited. However, those that do use them seem to be pretty dedicated so, maybe I am missing the boat on Xtant.
Someone else mentioned HOW these products are used as a determining factor and I couldn't agree more. Although I can see a day fast approaching where tuning and tweaking will become a thing of the past for 95% of the market. 

All I can say is that if there is ever a Car Audio Hall of Fame established, Bruce Macmillan should be one of the first inducted. 

*That's an idea for this site! A Car Audio Hall of Fame with nominations and inductions once per year with some pretty tough criteria for candidates. Just a thought.


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## azvrt

I can't comment on stuff made after 2000 as I haven't used it (except HU and CD Changer), but I do know that of the old (mid/late nineties), very old (early/mid nineties), and very very old stuff (late eighties/early nineties) I use, I can say that generally the very very old stuff is the best.

Personally I love to track down hard to find vintage stuff, to me it's a game, and a greatly rewarding one when succesful.

But in the end what matters is that the end user is happy with his/her system, new or old.


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## dgkirkman

all i know is from xperience.. used 2 run soundstream,fosgate,alpine,blaupunkt back in the day n well i just recently bought another car (2001) with a basic stock stereo (harmen kardon,alpine,phillips) that it came with but again i needed bass. so i bought a new soundstream rubicon 1000.1d amp for the sub well it lasted 3 weeks sent it in & they replaced some fetts,,well that being said went back 2 one of my old faithful fosgate 1000bd (2001) amps n it works awsome..if u can find it made in usa,germany or japan buy it..if its made in china,tiawan,mexico stayaway,,that goes for new or ol school..just my 3cents


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## RongGe

dgkirkman said:


> all i know is from xperience.. used 2 run they replaced some fetts,,well that being said went back 2 one of my old faithful fosgate 1000bd (2001) amps n it works awsome..if u can find it made in usa,germany or japan buy it..if its made in china,tiawan,mexico stayaway,,that goes for new or ol school..just my 3cents


So Fets failing is a result of not being made in the USA?


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## FartinInTheTub

In my opinion equipment seems to be more "mass produced" nowadays. as technology advances they seem to find faster and cheaper ways to produce things. I am an old school fan... simply because amplifiers such as Phoenix Gold, soundstream, and old Rockford seem to stay kicking quite a bit longer than the new gear. Back in the day they used to focus on quality and they put their heart into their products... nowadays they have to struggle to compete, which leads them to compromise on quality to stay at a certain price point. The days of the Soundstream reference, Rockford Fosgate Punch and the autotech are a distant memory. Advances in technology doesn't always mean advances in quality. I will miss the old days of car audio... and I'm sure many of us can relate.


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## prettysweetsounds

old school sucks but ppl love the nostalgia. Take a look around at some of the amazing, function filled gear on the market today. eg. p01


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## wheelieking71

prettysweetsounds said:


> old school sucks but ppl love the nostalgia. Take a look around at some of the amazing, function filled gear on the market today. eg. p01


LOLOLOLOLOL! i have missed the boat. it would seem that functions = sound quality! it would seem i am stuck in the old times when high quality simple circuits, plus smart equipment choices, combined with high quality speakers chosen based on a well understood list of criteria, painstakenly installed after countless hours of trial and error location experimentation, would yield a well integrated audio system capable of faithfully recreating the recording media. 
CRAP, i need more buttons! 

"old school" is sooo mis-understood. first off 90% of the time when people use the term "old school" they are referring to amplifiers. the attraction of "old school" can generally be summed up by two factors. COST, and NOSTALGIA. nostalgia because its fun to own things that you dreamt about as a kid but couldnt afford. and those dreams never really left your mind. but now you can afford to own some of that great gear (if you can find it). and, cost because in order to buy brand new equipment that matches the performance of alot of the "old school" greats is astronomical! anybody cost out a nice set of TRU, or Sinfoni amps lately. the "new school" amps that are becoming increasingly smaller and smaller are cool. ALOT of people would rather give up a fist-full of cash than give up thier trunk to amplifiers. i cant say as i blame them. but for those that dont have the disposable income, but still want great sound quality, older high quality amps just make sense. there is a Soundstream Class-A 6.0 on ebay right now for $200! how much is a rediculously underrated 50watts x 2 Sinfoni worth? im guessing at least $500! thats a difference of $300. thats ALOT of pachinga to most people! thats what "old school" is really about.


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## DinLuca

I agree oldschool amps are way more affordable than newschool hi-end amps. Oldschool might suffer with capacitors age, and other components too.

But i think, if you take something with a state of the art in terms of architecture like PPI Art Series and PC series, soundstream references and some stuff like that. Change the caps and op-amps for newer and best ones, maybe changing the transistors for some newer ones too, you can get something very special and still way cheaper than those hi-end expensive amps like sinfoni and tru.

But well, it would make the point of having a true oldschool vanish. But, yet, you have an awesome amp anyway.


----------



## JAX

You have to be very diligent to find anything less than 5yrs old that is able to match the quality of the late 90-early 20000's amps without spending a lot. 

I would take a Arvin over anything I have heard and they are how old? 

Not all newer stuff is junk but you got to look hard to be able to get it cheap. 

It's cheaper to get an old pg or ss that's works than it is to give tru a fist full of money. 

One person here is always talking how amps are disposable items and most manufacturers obviously agree. I think the engineer a product for a certain lifespan so you have to buy more. 

I highly doubt the old school engineers did that. 

Otherwise you wouldn't still see Orion / pg/ ss among others still going strong on eBay.


----------



## trojan fan

FartinInTheTub said:


> In my opinion equipment seems to be more "mass produced" nowadays. as technology advances they seem to find faster and cheaper ways to produce things. I am an old school fan... simply becuase amplifiers such as Phoenix Gold, soundstream, and old Rockford seem to stay kicking quite a bit longer than the new gear. Back in the day they used to focus on quality and they put their heart into their products... nowadays they have to struggle to compete, which leads them to compromise on quality to stay at a certain price point. The days of the Soundstream reference, Rockford Fosgate Punch and the autotech are a distant memory. Advances in technology doesn't always mean advances in quality. I will miss the old days of car audio... and I'm sure many of us can relate.



x2....exactly....but I would throw PPI in the mix also


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## wheelieking71

i definitely agree that amps have become "disposable". it used to be you buy a PhoenixGold MS2125, and it was an investment, because you could count on that amp still being operational in 20yrs. and alot of them are. im sure there are still lots of well engineered current model year ampifiers available today. but the cost is just nuts!! and contrary to that statement, i think on a whole, high quality amps are alot cheaper today than they used to be. if you still have one of those CA&E buyers guides, get it out and scan through some of the MSR prices on the "good" stuff. dollar per watt hasnt really changed a whole lot in the last 20yrs. it definitely hasnt followed inflation with everything else! i can remember how hard it was to let go of that fist full of cash when i was 19 for two Soundstream D200II's! that was a fortune for me at the time. ironically i have recently purchased 3 nice D200II's for penny's on retail. and guess what? they still sound just as good as i remembered!!! and better than ANY class-D "I" have ever tried. and i am not willing to pay the price to try one of the most recent choices that are getting good reviews.


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## FartinInTheTub

wheelieking71 said:


> i definitely agree that amps have become "disposable". it used to be you buy a PhoenixGold MS2125, and it was an investment, because you could count on that amp still being operational in 20yrs. and alot of them are. im sure there are still lots of well engineered current ampifiers available today. but the cost is just nuts!! and contrary to that statement, i think on a whole, high quality amps are alot cheaper today than they used to be. if you still have one of those CA&E buyers guides, get it out and scan through some of the MSR prices on the "good" stuff. dollar per watt hasnt really changed a whole lot in the last 20yrs. it definitely hasnt followed inflation with everything else! i can remember how hard it was to let go of that fist full of cash when i was 19 for two Soundstream D200II's! that was a fortune for me at the time. ironically i have recently purchased 3 nice D200II's for penny's on retail. and guess what? they still sound just as good as i remembered!!! and better than ANY class-D "I" have ever tried. and i am not willing to pay the price to try one of the most recent choices that are getting good reviews.


You are correct wheelie... The only reason I chose to sell my Soundstreams and go with a tiny 900/5 is the size. While the 900/5 sounds good it just doesn't perform like the soundstreams :worried: . I tell you this... When my son gets a little older and I get my trunk back I'm getting me a couple Reference 500s and a 6.0! They just produce magic. I'll be an old school fan for life!

I DO prefer new school subwoofers though! That's a place where I think car audio has come a long way!


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## JAX

FartinInTheTub said:


> You are correct wheelie... The only reason I chose to sell my Soundstreams and go with a tiny 900/5 is the size. While the 900/5 sounds good it just doesn't perform like the soundstreams :worried: . I tell you this... When my son gets a little older and I get my trunk back I'm getting me a couple Reference 500s and a 6.0! They just produce magic. I'll be an old school fan for life!
> 
> I DO prefer new school subwoofers though! That's a place where I think car audio has come a long way!


Some of them had smoke to go with that magic lol 

But really. Anyone who has used the old refs never really likes to get rid of them. 

Someone is tempting me right now.


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## ryan s

"Magic" amps...  Genuinely feels like this site is going backwards.

Also, if anyone "invests" in electronics for reasons other than short-term monetary gains--that is, purchasing anything but the "specialest"-of-special-editions with the mindset that it may be worth money 20+ years down the road--you may be an idiot.


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## wheelieking71

okay, i stand corrected. i should not have used the term "investment". it was just a quick way to say smart purchase, i guess.


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## ChrisB

ryan s said:


> "Magic" amps...  Genuinely feels like this site is going backwards.
> 
> Also, if anyone "invests" in electronics for reasons other than short-term monetary gains--that is, purchasing anything but the "specialest"-of-special-editions with the mindset that it may be worth money 20+ years down the road--you may be an idiot.


Sounds like my pet peeve the last time I went looking at cars. The car salesman says: "It's an investment" and I retort back by asking him to show me ONE car on his lot that will make me money if I buy it. After all, the point of an investment is to make money, isn't it? It was funny watching him try to recover from that.


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## wheelieking71

bye-the-way Ryan, im pretty sure fartin' knows he didnt have Chris Angel in his trunk. havnt you guys ever heard a "figure of speech" before.


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## ryan s

I'm not sure he was using that as a figure of speech. Apparently, Soundstream Reference amps are better with regards to sound "quality" compared to JL HDs.

That's one memo I never got :laugh: Because if I was going to change a component for better sound, I'd just get a more powerful amp.

On the other hand, I love investing (no quotes) in old school amps because there's always someone who will pay me more than I got it for


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## Bluliner

ryan s said:


> I'm not sure he was using that as a figure of speech. Apparently, Soundstream Reference amps are better with regards to sound "quality" compared to JL HDs.


If every newer Class D you've tried has left you unimpressed, why would you buy a new one b/c of reviews when you can purchase an 'old school' amplifier you know will fit the bill? 

That's what I got out of his message and he's not much different than a lot of folks out there who replaced their O/S amps with the new Class D hotness and came away feeling let down.


----------



## ChrisB

ryan s said:


> I'm not sure he was using that as a figure of speech. Apparently, Soundstream Reference amps are better with regards to sound "quality" compared to JL HDs.
> 
> That's one memo I never got :laugh: Because if I was going to change a component for better sound, I'd just get a more powerful amp.
> 
> On the other hand, I love investing (no quotes) in old school amps because there's always someone who will pay me more than I got it for


My experience from owing a Reference 700s was that it was underrated. I measured it at 178 watts RMS per channel just prior to clipping in 4 ohm loads. If the Reference 500 followed the same trend, I can see the difference in apparent output. After all, my Reference 700s contained a Reference 500 board.

I'm going to go on record and state that unless proper level matching is performed between two different amplifiers, that many could be confusing differences in power output with SQ.


----------



## wheelieking71

i absolutely agree that power can definitely be perceived as sound-quality! that is a very easy conclusion to jump to. over the last couple months i have been doing ALOT (and i mean ALOT) of amp swapping on my "bench". (in my den, in the house, reletively quiet, decent speakers, Clarion DRZ for source set to "direct" (no processing!)). the hardest part is level matching. i have to do it by ear. i have a reference volume set on the head (not very loud at all) and i do my best to match the amps for output, and go from there. its not easy, but i can absolutely hear differences between amps. a watt-is-NOT-a-watt.


----------



## FartinInTheTub

It WAS a figure of speech... no need to critique my words to try to prove some point. YES... I went with a 900/5 and it does leave me a little let down! With the same speakers in my car 2 Reference 300s and 1 Reference 500 sound better in my application. Power output is about the same when you compare the 3 amps and the 900/5. The multiple functions and crossovers tend to color the music. The Soundstreams made my speakers sound more detailed and you hear more detail in the music that seems left out with the JL. Argue all you want... doesn't matter to me. It seems like there's always certain people who quote statistics and preach that all amps sound the same... take away all the processing and use the same internal components and you may have a case but in the case of my comparisons my results are VERY different. I'm ok with the JL because it hides well in my application and I can finally get my son's stroller and toys in my trunk... If it weren't for that reason I'd have never gotten rid of my Soundstreams.


----------



## WRX2010

IMO the most important thing to remember is every person can perceive the same sound differently and what may sound like musical bliss to one person can easily sound like crap to another. To prove my point, I have listened to the same music thru $300 Shure earphones and $15 Sony earbuds. To my ears, the Sony's sound better.

The new technology in modern amplifiers is great for the purpose they are built for, i.e. smaller size, more efficient, maybe more features, but remember that an amplifier should be just that - an electrical device that increases the signal output. To me an amplifier having crossovers and equilizer/boost functions is pointless. The best method is to shape the sound before the amplifier gets it, so the amp can simply increase the voltage of the signal. It seems to me that people can be "nostalgic" about old school audio gear because some of us could not afford the higher end technology at the time. Now we can and at least for me, I am drawn to the non-digital (read as black and white) sound of the past. For me the sound of an Audio Art or original Hifonics Warrior amp is a hundred times better than what is out now.

I know for me hearing a vintage Les Paul or Strat played thru an old tube amp and vintage speakers is a warm and vibrant sound that just can't be reproduced any other way. Same thing with the Symphony. you can try very hard to replicate it, but it always sounds the best live. Just my opinion. To each their own and this debate will continue on forever . . .


----------



## JAX

I dont know if I hear SQ but I can hear when an amp is pushed to its point that it runs out of gas and starts sounding like crap.

but I have a mixture of cajun and latin and white man ears so I can hear things you guys cant.......


----------



## drufuss

An investment is not necessarily something you put money into expecting to receive money in return. One could surely "invest" into a better product that he/she could see future benefit, or extended use from. 
While I do understand that a 19 year old at an audio shop dropping a couple grand on some "high end" amps probably doesnt have usage for the next 20 years in mind for them, but Id like to hope he could possibly receive value on his "investment" in the form of buying a worthwhile product the first time instead of having to buy twice to accomplish the initial task at hand.


----------



## wheelieking71

drufuss said:


> An investment is not necessarily something you put money into expecting to receive money in return. One could surely "invest" into a better product that he/she could see future benefit, or extended use from.
> While I do understand that a 19 year old at an audio shop dropping a couple grand on some "high end" amps probably doesnt have usage for the next 20 years in mind for them, but Id like to hope he could possibly receive value on his "investment" in the form of buying a worthwhile product the first time instead of having to buy twice to accomplish the initial task at hand.



thank you for turning my one word into a whole paragraph. that is exactly what i meant. but some people like to argue just for the sake of argueing.


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## dgkirkman

wheelieking71 said:


> thank you for turning my one word into a whole paragraph. that is exactly what i meant. but some people like to argue just for the sake of argueing.


i totally know what u mean..u say 1 thing n some people just like 2 argue just 2 argue or pick apart ur verbige insted of contributing ..sad.. still like ol school stuff tho xcept 4 speakers theyv came along way


----------



## Bluliner

dgkirkman said:


> i totally know what u mean..u say 1 thing n some people just like 2 argue just 2 argue or pick apart ur verbige insted of contributing ..sad.. still like ol school stuff tho xcept 4 speakers theyv came along way


How have speakers come a long way? (honest question)

A component set from back in the day compared to a modern high end set seem to only differ in cone material and crossover flexibility. Take the crossover out of the equation and I don't hear a lot of progress or see anything ground breaking except exotic materials. 

Look at Dynaudio...have those ever changed? They sounded good 15years ago and they sound good today. 

(feel free to correct me on the above BTW)

Subwoofers are a different story though...they're very different these days.


----------



## dgkirkman

Bluliner said:


> How have speakers come a long way? (honest question)
> 
> A component set from back in the day compared to a modern high end set seem to only differ in cone material and crossover flexibility. Take the crossover out of the equation and I don't hear a lot of progress or see anything ground breaking except exotic materials.
> 
> Look at Dynaudio...have those ever changed? They sounded good 15years ago and they sound good today.
> 
> (feel free to correct me on the above BTW)
> 
> Subwoofers are a different story though...they're very different these days.


wow theres another xample,,, I WAS TALKIN ABOUT SUBS, sorry didnt specify... wow


----------



## Bluliner

dgkirkman said:


> wow theres another xample,,, I WAS TALKIN ABOUT SUBS, sorry didnt specify... wow


Didn't mean pick apart what you wrote or question you really. It's just you brought up O/S speakers so I gave my opinion/observations in hope someone else would chime in. 

We've beat to death the O/S vs. modern amp thing and I don't think anyone's really talked about speakers.


----------



## dgkirkman

Bluliner said:


> Didn't mean pick apart what you wrote or question you really. It's just you brought up O/S speakers so I gave my opinion/observations in hope someone else would chime in.
> 
> We've beat to death the O/S vs. modern amp thing and I don't think anyone's really talked about speakers.


good point...thats kinda why i said it..ol school amps r putin it bluntly just built better.. now speakers,subs whatever have came along way some design changes but mainly construction/durability specially subs qwick change baskets,voice coils ,composits,motors ect.


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## wheelieking71

old school, or new school doesnt matter to "me" when it comes to subs. what i do like is a nice light cone. large box sub. i like to hear the music, not the sub. i have yet to hear a small box sub that makes up for its inefficiency with excursion and power, that i like. only thing that ever came close for me was the DIYMA R12. but notice i said close. it had its limitations. first of wich was output. second was i hated the fear of a buckled cone lingering in the back of my mind all the time. i never buckled one, but i was always scared to flex the volume knob too. i will take a low power large box efficient sub over a stupid crazy Xmax, stupid crazy power small box sub, FOR MUSIC, every time. but thats me and my music. i dont listen to rap at all. and very little hip-hop. i listen to drum-skins, and strings. and the occasional organ. and for me, long Xmax = "that just dont sound right". 

this is my idea of a nice clean sub: Dayton Audio RSS390HO-4 15" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 Ohm

my all time favorite was an original JBL GTi 15". i still never have matched the sonics of the setup i used that sub in. roughly 3cubes vented in the trunk of a BIG ole' plymouth. it sounded perfect! off about 200watts, and would get down when asked to. never metered it, but im sure it would get into the mid 120dbs easily. the problem with old-school subs is, unlike amps, they wear out. 

but there are alot of reasons to buy new speakers, and i do believe technology has come a long way there. maybe not necessarily any new technology, but the wider implementation of existing "better" technology. and far-far better materials. and not just cones. magnets, surrounds, exotic metals used in the motor, motor geometry, tolerances, and adhesives. they are all way ahead of where they were 15years ago. the only exception i can really think of off the top of my head would be a Velodyne. they were pretty advanced back in the early-mid 90's.


----------



## splaudiohz

IMO it is not that the OLD stuff "IS Better" or what others think of my setup. All that really matters is my opinion and the other settings for the guy who is giving me the points. 

I think that audio companies put out better high end HUs back in the day, and more audiophiles were willing to spend the dime on it. Today we have: The Internet, Best Buy and their own line of head units at cheaper than audio shop prices, and a multitude of other inexpensive ways to go other than spending 1-2 or 3k on a HU and even more on high end amps. 

Lets face it, the world is about instant gratification. Kids can go to wal-mart get an sony Xplode HU, a pair of subs and a cheap amp and walk out of the door spending less than 300.00. Lots of bass, vibration, and stop light showing off. Many people only hear of High end audio when they are either looking for it, or click the "Feeling Lucky" button and http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum pops up as the first search. They click on it and see what REAL car audio is and close that tab. 

Bottom line, Alpine, Pioneer, etc.. still make HUs for the real audiophiles out there, but are competing with the cheap Sony, Boss, Road Gear, etc.. equipment. I think more heart went into old school equipment than it does today. I am not saying that companies don't care, because I believe they do, just changing with the times. 

Different strokes for different folks.


----------



## ryan s

ChrisB said:


> I'm going to go on record and state that unless proper level matching is performed between two different amplifiers, that many could be confusing differences in power output with SQ.


Definitely.

When I put the PDX 4 channel in temporarily, at 100w per channel instead of 80, it sounded way weaker than my cheap Class AB. Except the PDX had a lot more gain swing 


wheelieking71 said:


> the hardest part is level matching. i have to do it by ear. i have a reference volume set on the head (not very loud at all) and i do my best to match the amps for output, and go from there. its not easy, but i can absolutely hear differences between amps. a watt-is-NOT-a-watt.


Doing it by ear throws out the results. "I feel lighter today," but do you *actually *weigh less than yesterday? 

If a watt isn't a watt, what is it?


FartinInTheTub said:


> The multiple functions and crossovers tend to color the music.


First time I've ever heard anyone mention that since the HDs came out :shrug:

But again, "this amp sounds better" without numbers is quite meaningless. Turn the gains up.


----------



## ChrisB

ryan s said:


> First time I've ever heard anyone mention that since the HDs came out :shrug:
> 
> But again, "this amp sounds better" without numbers is quite meaningless. Turn the gains up.


I was able to do this: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1382564-post24.html

I used the same HU, laptop, RTA program, pre-amp, calibrated microphone in the same position, and pink noise CD. The spike near 5 kHz with the old ab/gh setup was due to the GD beep on my HU. *doh*

After going down to one amplifier, I noticed that my mids and highs sounded cleaner and the sub blended better. Of course I attribute that to having more power going to the full-range driver and less power going to the sub. I am going to RTA my car again with a different pre-amp as soon as I feel like sweating enough to connect my Ai-NET to RCA Aux-in adapter.


----------



## wheelieking71

again, why must you pick apart everything anybody says? of course 1 watt is equal to one watt. DUH, its an expression of speech. you know exactly what i meant.


----------



## jester

I beg to differ that 1 watt is 1 watt. I think by today standards 1 watt is actually .45watt. 

Just remember there is a reason why those amps are so coveted and price!


----------



## wheelieking71

ehh, ohms law does a good job of defining a watt. cant change that. but when you factor in sweeping A/C frequencies in real time with constantly fluctuating reactive loads, you can throw ohms law out the window. (chuckles) whatever that means. im just spouting off LOL. i really have no clue what i just said. i just find it irritating that Ryan has to come in here and pick apart everything everybody says. stating that all these opinions are worthless without numbers. EFF numbers, you can have your numbers. i will take my expirience over numbers every single time. i cant hear numbers. what i know is if i put 2 similarly rated amps side by side. and i try everything i can do to make them sound the same, but one of them is always more pleasing to my ears. no matter what. then thats the amp i like! its that effin simple. numbers dont mean ****.
so, why dont you (Ryan) explain what "turn the gains up" is gonna fix. and please, include your numbers.


----------



## azvrt

wheelieking71 said:


> ehh, ohms law does a good job of defining a watt. cant change that. but when you factor in sweeping A/C frequencies in real time with constantly fluctuating reactive loads, you can throw ohms law out the window. (chuckles) whatever that means. im just spouting off LOL. i really have no clue what i just said. i just find it irritating that Ryan has to come in here and pick apart everything everybody says. stating that all these opinions are worthless without numbers. EFF numbers, you can have your numbers. i will take my expirience over numbers every single time. i cant hear numbers. what i know is if i put 2 similarly rated amps side by side. and i try everything i can do to make them sound the same, but one of them is always more pleasing to my ears. no matter what. then thats the amp i like! its that effin simple. numbers dont mean ****.
> so, why dont you (Ryan) explain what "turn the gains up" is gonna fix. and please, include your numbers.


The human ear indeed differs quite a lot from electronic measuring devices.
Many people tend to forget that.


----------



## TrickyRicky

azvrt said:


> The human ear indeed differs quite a lot from electronic measuring devices.
> Many people tend to forget that.


I dont know what the hell 132.55db sounds like :laugh: or any SPL just by using my ear. Or at that how much THD an amp puts out and other crap like that.


----------



## azvrt

What the man meant to say is:

Yes numbers have their function, but in the end, if it's not pleasing to the ear, the numbers are useless. Someone who is mainly interested in sound quality and/or type of sound, will need to use his ears to check whether the sound is pleasing to him.

If a certain amp has a certain anomaly or distortion which has a pleasing effect to the end user, he may consider it a better amp than an amp which is better on paper.


----------



## TrickyRicky

Sorta like the vinyl's and that comforting snap crackle and pop noise. Or the noise put out by the old school tubes.


----------



## azvrt

Indeed.
But there's more to vinyl than snap crackle and pop noise.
CD has its limitations as well.

One of the great designers of yesterday's and today's car amps uses vinyl at home with tube amps, while he has access to stuff that performs better on paper.


----------



## wheelieking71

azvrt said:


> What the man meant to say is:
> 
> Yes numbers have their function, but in the end, if it's not pleasing to the ear, the numbers are useless. Someone who is mainly interested in sound quality and/or type of sound, will need to use his ears to check whether the sound is pleasing to him.
> 
> If a certain amp has a certain anomaly or distortion which has a pleasing effect to the end user, he may consider it a better amp than an amp which is better on paper.


THANKS FRED! people need to quit worrying about everything, and just listen.


----------



## rocketsfan

I agree!


----------



## ryan s

ChrisB said:


> I was able to do this: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1382564-post24.html
> 
> I used the same HU, laptop, RTA program, pre-amp, calibrated microphone in the same position, and pink noise CD. The spike near 5 kHz with the old ab/gh setup was due to the GD beep on my HU. *doh*
> 
> After going down to one amplifier, I noticed that my mids and highs sounded cleaner and the sub blended better. Of course I attribute that to having more power going to the full-range driver and less power going to the sub. I am going to RTA my car again with a different pre-amp as soon as I feel like sweating enough to connect my Ai-NET to RCA Aux-in adapter.


Good stuff, keep it coming  No magical old school SQ dust needed.

How did you manage to record the headunit beep? :surprised: :laugh:


wheelieking71 said:


> again, why must you pick apart everything anybody says? of course 1 watt is equal to one watt. DUH, its an expression of speech. you know exactly what i meant.


No, I don't know what you mean, which I why I asked. 

I assume it has something to do with "every" old school amp being "underrated" (hilarious browsing ebay and seeing that on every single old amp, even the grossly overrated or regulated ones :laugh.


wheelieking71 said:


> ehh, ohms law does a good job of defining a watt. cant change that. but when you factor in sweeping A/C frequencies in real time with constantly fluctuating reactive loads, you can throw ohms law out the window. (chuckles) whatever that means. im just spouting off LOL. i really have no clue what i just said. i just find it irritating that Ryan has to come in here and pick apart everything everybody says. stating that all these opinions are worthless without numbers. EFF numbers, you can have your numbers. i will take my expirience over numbers every single time. i cant hear numbers. what i know is if i put 2 similarly rated amps side by side. and i try everything i can do to make them sound the same, but one of them is always more pleasing to my ears. no matter what. then thats the amp i like! its that effin simple. numbers dont mean ****.
> so, why dont you (Ryan) explain what "turn the gains up" is gonna fix. and please, include your numbers.


Yeah, you're on the wrong site then. Last time I checked, the site header wasn't DIYMA.com - Emotional Car Audio - Nostalgic Opinions in Sound Quality.

If you don't understand level matching nor apparent loudness, I definitely wouldn't trust you anywhere near my stuff with your "experience" 

You clearly don't care about the numbers, the science, or the physics so why should I waste my time on someone wearing old school earplugs? All the info is already readily available on this site and on the web. Why is it my responsibility to hold your hand and find it for you? You would have found it already without the blinders on...I have, so why not you as well? I learn something new every day, sometimes a LOT, which makes it easy to apply in the real world instead of just stumbling along, "well that's good enough." 

(Hint: Numbers also help by showing you that you don't have to buy and try every single product on the market. I mean, if every amp has a sound signature, there's always going to be one that sounds better. Start saving! I can also look at the numbers, which "don't mean ****," and buy drivers that suit my listening tastes and/or environmental obstacles without purchasing thousands and thousands of dollars of products. Better get to listening, there's a lot of drivers! This principle is why DIYMA was started in the first place )


azvrt said:


> The human ear indeed differs quite a lot from electronic measuring devices.
> Many people tend to forget that.


Chris's post above demonstrates the correlation--the "highs" sound "cleaner" because they *measure *louder...


----------



## Kryptoroxx

Been reading a lot of the posts and I agree and disagree with some things. I think car audio is similar in a lot of ways to cars themselves. Everyone has their Classic favorites in which collectors and admirers alike will never let die. The opinions can range from quality to just liking how something fit or sounded in their setups. There are going to be those who like the new stuff as well. It's all down to your personal ear really although I do believe firmly I will never get rid of my zeds....

On another note I noticed a post about larger capacity media needed. I'm thinking that possibly digital technology really needs to develop as a WHOLE. The whole process needs to get better from the microphone that the singer uses all the way to the crossover and speakers that provide you the earxtacy that we love. Eventually people will want Blu-Ray quality in their audio again and audiophiles will be saved from extinction. However I think HU's are going to end up being digital in their entirety and a SSD or HDD will be what you use as storage. The BT, USB, etc transfers are sadly going to stay IMO just because of the way technology as a whole is moving. I'm 29 years old in a couple of days and I am simply amazed by how far technology has come. When I was born 8-tracks were just dying and now you can stream digital music from the internet (thanks Al Gore  lol) while you drive down the ROAD!!! WTF over?


----------



## ChrisB

ryan s said:


> Good stuff, keep it coming  No magical old school SQ dust needed.
> 
> How did you manage to record the headunit beep? :surprised: :laugh:


I started out with the subwoofer at zero and wanted it at 15. Well, one push of the volume knob emits a beep that gets picked up by the RTA in peak hold mode. It had slipped my mind as to why the old setup had a peak there but the new one didn't, then when my HU beeped as I was going to adjust the crossovers, I noticed the same spike and put 2 and 2 together. In other words, if you so much as sneeze while grabbing a RTA, expect it to get picked up!


----------



## wheelieking71

you are absolutely correct Ryan, that i dont care about the numbers. now, the science on the other hand, i DO care about! and i never said i didnt. you just jumped to a conclusion. i am quite fascinated by it actually! and i have a much better understanding of it than i would lead you to believe. your biggest misunderstanding of me is that i have "old school earplugs" LOL. quite the contrary! i have spent ALOT of time researching exactly how to level match. and countless hours tuning and properly setting gains (which i DO know how to do properly i might add. do you own a scope? i do.) to try and take advantage of those worthless numbers. i know exactly what amplitude is. i get the fundamentals man. thats not the issue. i would love to buy some "new school" high end amplifiers, but i simply cant afford it. i am not "old school" by any means. what i am is thrifty. i would never buy an "old school" speaker. unless it was a good deal from a trusted seller, and i had all the parameters available to make a smart educated descision on such a purchase. you see, numbers do have alot of value when choosing speakers. but i am still gonna pretty much dismiss numbers in favor of my experience when it comes to amps. i would suggest you dont judge people you know nothing about simply because they used a couple figures of speech. i will use Fartin's "majic" reference. you know damn well he doesnt think his amps could really trick physics. yet you had to make a derogatory statement. thats what erks me. let people have thier opinions. especially when some of those opinions are backed up by many years of REAL WORLD expirience. i have been into car audio since i was about 15. i am now 40. you learn things in 25years. notice i have never said: "this old school amp is better than that new school amp". but rather: "i used one of these new school amps and it was not as good as that old school amp". that means i am sharing details from one of MY personal expiriences. it is not a generalization. and there is no way for me to have an opinion of a new JL HD until i try one. and since i dont want to spend that kind of money, and nobody is gonna lend me one, i am not going to try one any time soon. if somebody was willing to lend me one, would i try it? hell yes. would i be biased because it was new school? hell no! if it matched the results i get from my personal proven amplifiers that i use, would i buy one? hell yes! right after mine fail. who wouldnt want a wire with gain? (that is a figure of speech describing how small the JL HD's are incase you didnt get it!) my proven old amps are reliable and economical. they sound better than my speakers which makes them better FOR ME than spending money on new amps. how can you possibly judge my descision making process when you know nothing about my install, finances, likes, dislikes, or aspects of this hobby that i enjoy? you cant. i am simply sharing MY opinion in a thread about a myth. i never endorsed said myth.


----------



## rockytophigh

wheelieking71 said:


> you are absolutely correct Ryan, that i dont care about the numbers. now, the science on the other hand, i DO care about! and i never said i didnt. you just jumped to a conclusion. i am quite fascinated by it actually! and i have a much better understanding of it than i would lead you to believe. your biggest misunderstanding of me is that i have "old school earplugs" LOL. quite the contrary! i have spent ALOT of time researching exactly how to level match. and countless hours tuning and properly setting gains (which i DO know how to do properly i might add. do you own a scope? i do.) to try and take advantage of those worthless numbers. i know exactly what amplitude is. i get the fundamentals man. thats not the issue. i would love to buy some "new school" high end amplifiers, but i simply cant afford it. i am not "old school" by any means. what i am is thrifty. i would never buy an "old school" speaker. unless it was a good deal from a trusted seller, and i had all the parameters available to make a smart educated descision on such a purchase. you see, numbers do have alot of value when choosing speakers. but i am still gonna pretty much dismiss numbers in favor of my experience when it comes to amps. i would suggest you dont judge people you know nothing about simply because they used a couple figures of speech. i will use Fartin's "majic" reference. you know damn well he doesnt think his amps could really trick physics. yet you had to make a derogatory statement. thats what erks me. let people have thier opinions. especially when some of those opinions are backed up by many years of REAL WORLD expirience. i have been into car audio since i was about 15. i am now 41. you learn things in 26years. notice i have never said this old school amp is better than that new school amp. but rather, i used one of these new school amps and it was not as good as that old school amp. that means i am sharing details from one of MY personal expiriences. it is not a generalization. and there is no way for me to have an opinion of a new JL HD until i try one. and since i dont want to spend that kind of money, and nobody is gonna lend me one, i am not going to try one any time soon. if somebody was willing to lend me one, would i try it? hell yes. would i be biased because it was new school? hell no! if it matched the results i get from my personal proven amplifiers that i use, would i buy one? hell yes! right after mine fail. who wouldnt want a wire with gain? (that is a figure of speech describing how small the JL HD's are incase you didnt get it!) my proven old amps are reliable and economical. they sound better than my speakers which makes them better FOR ME than spending money on new amps. how can you possibly judge my descision making process when you know nothing about my install, finances, likes, dislikes, or aspects of this hobby that i enjoy? you cant. i am simply sharing MY opinion in a thread about a myth. i never endorsed said myth.


Game.....Set........Match.


----------



## ryan s

Kryptoroxx said:


> Been reading a lot of the posts and I agree and disagree with some things. I think car audio is similar in a lot of ways to cars themselves. Everyone has their Classic favorites in which collectors and admirers alike will never let die. The opinions can range from quality to just liking how something fit or sounded in their setups. There are going to be those who like the new stuff as well. It's all down to your personal ear really although I do believe firmly I will never get rid of my zeds....
> 
> On another note I noticed a post about larger capacity media needed. I'm thinking that possibly digital technology really needs to develop as a WHOLE. The whole process needs to get better from the microphone that the singer uses all the way to the crossover and speakers that provide you the earxtacy that we love. Eventually people will want Blu-Ray quality in their audio again and audiophiles will be saved from extinction. However I think HU's are going to end up being digital in their entirety and a SSD or HDD will be what you use as storage. The BT, USB, etc transfers are sadly going to stay IMO just because of the way technology as a whole is moving. I'm 29 years old in a couple of days and I am simply amazed by how far technology has come. When I was born 8-tracks were just dying and now you can stream digital music from the internet (thanks Al Gore  lol) while you drive down the ROAD!!! WTF over?


Can't wait till the headunit has a 128GB SSD built in which can receive/delete files over WiFi while parked in the driveway without the car turned on. Handling media is cool at home, but the day when I can't forget my USB stick--because portable physical storage isn't needed--will be sweet.



wheelieking71 said:


> you are absolutely correct Ryan, that i dont care about the numbers. now, the science on the other hand, i DO care about! and i never said i didnt. you just jumped to a conclusion. i am quite fascinated by it actually! and i have a much better understanding of it than i would lead you to believe. your biggest misunderstanding of me is that i have "old school earplugs" LOL. quite the contrary! i have spent ALOT of time researching exactly how to level match. and countless hours tuning and properly setting gains (which i DO know how to do properly i might add. do you own a scope? i do.) to try and take advantage of those worthless numbers. i know exactly what amplitude is. i get the fundamentals man. thats not the issue. i would love to buy some "new school" high end amplifiers, but i simply cant afford it. i am not "old school" by any means. what i am is thrifty. i would never buy an "old school" speaker. unless it was a good deal from a trusted seller, and i had all the parameters available to make a smart educated descision on such a purchase. you see, numbers do have alot of value when choosing speakers. but i am still gonna pretty much dismiss numbers in favor of my experience when it comes to amps. i would suggest you dont judge people you know nothing about simply because they used a couple figures of speech. i will use Fartin's "majic" reference. you know damn well he doesnt think his amps could really trick physics. yet you had to make a derogatory statement. thats what erks me. let people have thier opinions. especially when some of those opinions are backed up by many years of REAL WORLD expirience. i have been into car audio since i was about 15. i am now 40. you learn things in 25years. notice i have never said: "this old school amp is better than that new school amp". but rather: "i used one of these new school amps and it was not as good as that old school amp". that means i am sharing details from one of MY personal expiriences. it is not a generalization. and there is no way for me to have an opinion of a new JL HD until i try one. and since i dont want to spend that kind of money, and nobody is gonna lend me one, i am not going to try one any time soon. if somebody was willing to lend me one, would i try it? hell yes. would i be biased because it was new school? hell no! if it matched the results i get from my personal proven amplifiers that i use, would i buy one? hell yes! right after mine fail. who wouldnt want a wire with gain? (that is a figure of speech describing how small the JL HD's are incase you didnt get it!) my proven old amps are reliable and economical. they sound better than my speakers which makes them better FOR ME than spending money on new amps. how can you possibly judge my descision making process when you know nothing about my install, finances, likes, dislikes, or aspects of this hobby that i enjoy? you cant. i am simply sharing MY opinion in a thread about a myth. i never endorsed said myth.


Wall of text...where to start? :worried:

First, if you think anything I've said is *derogatory*, look up the definition of the word. My comments fit right into the spirit of what the discussion has turned into. I have very few true "problems" with people as people...I'm just expressing my thoughts in point 2 below. Rarely is it personal.

Second, opinions are fine...opinions are great. When opinions are presented as fact, based on a fallacy or fully subjective experience, that's where the problem lies. Reading reviews on Amazon for $40 5 1/4" coaxes are always glowing, for example, with things like "crisp highs." They're the greatest thing ever to the people who bought them. Would a 5-star rating lie? 

Third, I am also budget-minded. Yet, there are plenty of ways around that. Since amps have gotten so cheap today (yes, there _are _good ones for not a ton of money) it doesn't make a ton of sense to take up the whole trunk with amps anymore if that means I have to spend an extra $100 vs old school amps. It doesn't have to be a "JL HD or no other Class D" type of deal...tons of good Class Ds out there today. Heh, in fact, having sold my Class D 4-channel and when I get around to selling my 2 old school amps (and newer AB 4-channel), I'll end up with money in my pocket *and *have a nice 5-channel powering everything. And I'll get my trunk back, finally. (Actually, selling old school amps has pretty much financed my whole setup.)

Fourth, the fundamentals _are_ the numbers, man  They're how you go from a pile of parts to an install. You'll be letting out the magic smoke without them. The numbers tell you "hmm, this tweeter sounds harsh...better use the EQ a little" and you know/find where a cut is required. Understanding inter-aural research can help with stage height/width...which is by the numbers.

Without them, you have speakers in the doors and amps and subs in the trunk...


----------



## wheelieking71

ryan s said:


> "Magic" amps...  Genuinely feels like this site is going backwards.


i found this ^^^^^ to be derogatory. 

otherwise, your last post was well spoken. and i agree on pretty much every level, except: one should not choose and amplifier based on the numbers. speakers? yes, absolutely! they are a mechanical device with constantly changing parameters. and those parameters dictate how it CAN, and SHOULD be used. you have to look at the numbers, and know how to make an educated prediction of how that mechanical device is going to respond in your given situation. but, as far as i know, ever since the dawn of high fidelity reproduction, amplifiers have had one objective: raise amplitude without introducing any coloration. with pure SPL being the exception. every amp out there is after the same goal. and it is my experience that you cannot reliably predict how an amplifier is going to sound based on its "numbers". this didnt start out about system set up. it was simply old-school vs. new. and you stated that the numbers (meaning amplifier specifications) were important. where i disagree.


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## wheelieking71

ryan s said:


> Fourth, the fundamentals _are_ the numbers, man  They're how you go from a pile of parts to an install. You'll be letting out the magic smoke without them. The numbers tell you "hmm, this tweeter sounds harsh...better use the EQ a little" and you know/find where a cut is required. Understanding inter-aural research can help with stage height/width...which is by the numbers.
> 
> Without them, you have speakers in the doors and amps and subs in the trunk...


absolutely! BUT, it has nothing to do with choosing an amplifier.


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## jester

PaulD said:


> .. but cheap is what the consumer here in the US wants, we live in the cheap generation where all too many people feel everything should be free (or close to it). Ever wonder why ipod's are so popular ? How many of those people do you really thing paid for their music ? There are plenty of highend headunits in places like Japan, we don't get them here because they won't sell.


Hate to say you are right on this... The younger drivers now that are getting into the car audio electronics are seeing 4k and 7k amps for 500-700 dollars. But when they see an old school jl or zapco amp still listing for 400-600 (just rounding here) bucks. they think that person is on drugs. 

They are not seeing the quality that made those product kings of their time and still being envied in todays market!


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## TrickyRicky

I like my old school deck and amplifier. A CDA-7949 & Linear Power 4503IQ, no woofer amp or woofer (which I definetely need). And am pretty damn happy with the sound. So am digging the old school, myth or not.


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## cleansoundz

jimmy2345 said:


> Truthfully, it would be personal preference. In my opinion, the old Fosgate Power series amps have more fidelity which is something that is hard to obtain with newer amps. However, those amps in particular aren't as clean as the Arc or Audison. It really boils down to what is more important to you. Now, there are a few other amps I could name that have the best of both worlds.


True I have used 5 to 6 RF T400-4 amps which I am through with and they don't hold a candle to my RF DSM 4020 as far as fidelity goes. However my DSM 4020s sound exactly the same as my Digital Designs C4B amps.


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## splaudiohz

It has cost me more money then I care to admit to, but I bought and sold a few different HUs and amp setups to get where I am now. Bought a CDA-117 with Imprint and paired it up with a Zapco DC REF 650.6 that powered a Focal Utopia 3-way setup. I put a OLD DVA-7996 in place of that CDA-117 and there was a jaw dropping sound quality difference. It actually sounded like "real" music. ****ty to say it, but I sold off my cda setup and am now staying with the older alpine.


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## cleansoundz

1sicls1 said:


> I always used old school gear, well because I'm old school and its what I remember when I was a teenager just getting into this hobby. However, I have now changed my ways and switched setup's from my old school Rockford Fosgate to Diamond Audio and Massive Audio. Couldn't be happier, sometimes life needs change. As long as you go with reputable equipment and DO your research I say you can't go wrong.


Well said and well put. Sticking to old school Fosgate hasn't cost me as much money as constantly going back to RF because that is what I used in the late 80's and all of the 90's. The key for me is letting my ears do the listening and deciding. Also I like big heavy aluminum heatsinks with plain looks without the bells and whistles. Also I like the gains where they can be adjusted easily. Change is good once the person gives themself time to accept it.


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## wheelieking71

splaudiohz said:


> It has cost me more money then I care to admit to, but I bought and sold a few different HUs and amp setups to get where I am now. Bought a CDA-117 with Imprint and paired it up with a Zapco DC REF 650.6 that powered a Focal Utopia 3-way setup. I put a OLD DVA-7996 in place of that CDA-117 and there was a jaw dropping sound quality difference. It actually sounded like "real" music. ****ty to say it, but I sold off my cda setup and am now staying with the older alpine.


i had a similar experience! i was running an Alpine CDA-9887, and ADCOM amps. HAT Clarus mids, and many different drivers on the top, from wide-banders to 4 or 5 different sets of tweets (just playing around). i messed around with that stuff for a couple months. but there was just something the whole time that didnt sound right. one day for giggles i plugged an old Denon home CD player directly into my ADCOM crossover. BAM! instantly a brand new system. the difference between the 9887, and Denon was jaw-dropping. just like you said, it was music now, instead of noise! i went back to the stock radio, navone LOC into an Alpine 701, and it was way better than the 9887, but not the denon CD player. apperently i didnt learn anything, because i just sold a like new DRZ, and replaced it with an Alpine CDA-9887! LOL (different truck, that has more road noise than the hells-angels. the 9887 will be fine in there, and i need USB.)


----------



## Kryptoroxx

jester said:


> Hate to say you are right on this... The younger drivers now that are getting into the car audio electronics are seeing 4k and 7k amps for 500-700 dollars. But when they see an old school jl or zapco amp still listing for 400-600 (just rounding here) bucks. they think that person is on drugs.
> 
> They are not seeing the quality that made those product kings of their time and still being envied in todays market!


100% agree on that. I'm not going to get into the numbers part of the discussion because that is waaay out of my depth and I do have little experience with the advanced part of sq. However I do have one comment that sheds light on both sides of the argument and ties in this one. A lot of an amplifier's sound comes from it's design and there are some designs that are higher in sound quality and there are some that are higher in efficiency. The biggest part of my opinion comes into play when you consider the quality of what makes up the amp. Get down to the copper....how pure is it? What kind of circuits does it have and what are they made of. There are certain metal properties that are going to give to either efficiency, quality, or perhaps both. That's getting out of my depth as well. But the quality in the build from the source of the basic materials to the finished amp will play a big part in how an amp sounds. In turn this will effect price. If a company is only willing to accept copper X because of it's pureness or this type of circuit they have either gotten really lucky or put a lot of thought, time, and money into the design. 

Honestly there are probably amps out there that are new and sound amazing....but I think there might be a higher percentage of the "old school" amps that sound amazing. Or it could just be that the higher quality ones are the only ones that are left since all of the inferior amps have broken....or everyone realized....hey this thing is cheap and I want better. 

Who still has a K car?....that was a little before my time but my dad told me horror stories about it....now if you look at it and ask who still has a Toyota from that year still. You're gonna find more Toyotas lol.


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## WRX2010

Quality and numbers. I'm now 38, so i have been around from when 8 tracks and the radio were it and car amplifiers for the rich. I remember when CDs first came out and the home cd players were thousands of dollars (imagine the cost in today's $$). then came the car cd player. I have to say I don't miss having a breifcase sized holder for cassettes.

Numbers are the basis of the science behind car audio equipment (this word is important) absolutely, but numbers do not determine if the owner/listener will enjoy it or not. I think every human hears things in a different way (except for maybe twins) because I don't think people's ears are the same, either internally or externally. So for someone to say the numbers don't lie is absolutely correct, however, it does not mean 2 people will both like the sound.

Quality - now this has a different meaning in today's world than when I was a kid growing up. I wholeheartedly believe companies produce products today with an deliberate obsolescence. This is the only way for them to continue selling more products. To me this is why warranties are shorter now and it is not uncommon for something to break right after the warranty period expires. This added with the lower cost of the product, it is more often than not cheaper to buy a new one than get it fixed. I remember growing up with a washing machine that lasted until I graduated from college. The thing worked fine for 20+ years without needed to get fixed. My parents have had to buy 3 washing machines in the last 8 or so years of the so-called better and newer ones. That tells me that quality today is not as important as it was in the past.

Obviously this is my opinion and you can agree or not, but just my observations during my lifetime. This is a fruitless arguement that will continue on forever. Why can't people realize that others have their own preferences and get over it.


----------



## sqshoestring

K cars were great in a way, they were simple and easy to fix. Yes they were a cheap tin can car, and that is what you got. Japan was ahead in engineering a small car back then that is true, but not like they were worlds better. There are still some K cars around here this gas scare has them out on the road because they get better mpg than new cars do, some even with carburetors lol. Are they better, well no, but its true for various emissions and safety reasons. The latest emissions laws for diesels reduced their mpg but you don't hear anyone complaining about using more fuel do you? Only the owners do. I ran a few omni/horizons back in the day, you could fit 4cf box in the hatch of those and they corner loaded really well. I drove the wheels off one for years and got 34-38mpg all the time including city driving, though I lived outside of town. Yeah it had a VW engine. Finally I could not weld the a arms back on there was hardly any rusty frame left. Once I put a clutch in it; I grabbed the trans out the wheel well in far less than an hour, having never done it before and no manual. They were like model As.

It is funny how governments and people do things to look good, that have consequences. They did NAFTA to have easily made labor intensive products made someplace else cheaper. Now the Chinese dump toxic chemicals out all over making car amps and whatnot on dirty coal power. We get them and they cost more than you think once you factor in the short lifespan. Then we toss them in our landfill because its not like anyone is going to pay to have them recycled. Nobody cares about the jobs lost, the full landfills, or the toxic waste that is not in their backyard....or the trade imbalance. Never would we change our policy here to be more competitive either.

Same thing with 'cash for clunkers'; how about factoring in the cost of energy (and pollution) to manufacture the car in the first place? You just destroyed it and required a new car to be built. It is pretty obvious with high priced gas few people will be putting many miles on suburbans anyway so the mpg difference is not that much, but no lets crush them and destroy an asset. Today the price of used cars here is very high supposedly due to the lack of older used cars that were destroyed. I would say some of it is just the dealers who likely figure everyone else raised prices in a recession so now they are going to do the same. When I drive by the wholesale car auction place here it is full of cars. And with loss of income I imagine many are not buying new and keeping their used instead of trading it in. Whatever the case we are losing in this game.


----------



## cleansoundz

WRX2010 said:


> Quality and numbers. I'm now 38, so i have been around from when 8 tracks and the radio were it and car amplifiers for the rich. I remember when CDs first came out and the home cd players were thousands of dollars (imagine the cost in today's $$). then came the car cd player. I have to say I don't miss having a breifcase sized holder for cassettes.
> 
> Numbers are the basis of the science behind car audio equipment (this word is important) absolutely, but numbers do not determine if the owner/listener will enjoy it or not. I think every human hears things in a different way (except for maybe twins) because I don't think people's ears are the same, either internally or externally. So for someone to say the numbers don't lie is absolutely correct, however, it does not mean 2 people will both like the sound.
> 
> Quality - now this has a different meaning in today's world than when I was a kid growing up. I wholeheartedly believe companies produce products today with an deliberate obsolescence. This is the only way for them to continue selling more products. To me this is why warranties are shorter now and it is not uncommon for something to break right after the warranty period expires. This added with the lower cost of the product, it is more often than not cheaper to buy a new one than get it fixed. I remember growing up with a washing machine that lasted until I graduated from college. The thing worked fine for 20+ years without needed to get fixed. My parents have had to buy 3 washing machines in the last 8 or so years of the so-called better and newer ones. That tells me that quality today is not as important as it was in the past.
> 
> Obviously this is my opinion and you can agree or not, but just my observations during my lifetime. This is a fruitless arguement that will continue on forever. Why can't people realize that others have their own preferences and get over it.


Amen to that. My grandmother had the same deep freezer in her garage from 1955 until she died in 2008. My dad was 9 years old when she bought it. He is now 69 and the same freezer is in the garage now still running fine. My dad finally after 31 years replaced his old refrigerator. My mom is replacing her old washer after 20 years. So yes, I can relate to your views and agree 100%. BTW I am 41.

However to add on there are companies (less mainstream) that are committed to making quality car and home audio products. I believe that they are the smaller companies where quality control is beyond excellent.


----------



## chad

cleansoundz said:


> Amen to that. My grandmother had the same deep freezer in her garage from 1955 until she died in 2008. My dad was 9 years old when she bought it. He is now 69 and the same freezer is in the garage now still running fine. My dad finally after 31 years replaced his old refrigerator. My mom is replacing her old washer after 20 years. So yes, I can relate to your views and agree 100%. BTW I am 41.
> 
> However to add on there are companies (less mainstream) that are committed to making quality car and home audio products.  I believe that they are the smaller companies where quality control is beyond excellent.


Sittin' in the same age group..... yeah, well said.

I'm leery of older electronic things with people without bench skills, especially exposed to extreme heat and shock... but again i do it for a living (repair said things) it's not that the gear is horrible (although components have gotten better and better) but time is not kind in such situations.

We have a Kelvinator at work... love it.


----------



## Kryptoroxx

sqshoestring said:


> K cars were great in a way, they were simple and easy to fix. Yes they were a cheap tin can car, and that is what you got. Japan was ahead in engineering a small car back then that is true, but not like they were worlds better. There are still some K cars around here this gas scare has them out on the road because they get better mpg than new cars do, some even with carburetors lol. Are they better, well no, but its true for various emissions and safety reasons. The latest emissions laws for diesels reduced their mpg but you don't hear anyone complaining about using more fuel do you? Only the owners do. I ran a few omni/horizons back in the day, you could fit 4cf box in the hatch of those and they corner loaded really well. I drove the wheels off one for years and got 34-38mpg all the time including city driving, though I lived outside of town. Yeah it had a VW engine. Finally I could not weld the a arms back on there was hardly any rusty frame left. Once I put a clutch in it; I grabbed the trans out the wheel well in far less than an hour, having never done it before and no manual. They were like model As.
> 
> It is funny how governments and people do things to look good, that have consequences. They did NAFTA to have easily made labor intensive products made someplace else cheaper. Now the Chinese dump toxic chemicals out all over making car amps and whatnot on dirty coal power. We get them and they cost more than you think once you factor in the short lifespan. Then we toss them in our landfill because its not like anyone is going to pay to have them recycled. Nobody cares about the jobs lost, the full landfills, or the toxic waste that is not in their backyard....or the trade imbalance. Never would we change our policy here to be more competitive either.
> 
> Same thing with 'cash for clunkers'; how about factoring in the cost of energy (and pollution) to manufacture the car in the first place? You just destroyed it and required a new car to be built. It is pretty obvious with high priced gas few people will be putting many miles on suburbans anyway so the mpg difference is not that much, but no lets crush them and destroy an asset. Today the price of used cars here is very high supposedly due to the lack of older used cars that were destroyed. I would say some of it is just the dealers who likely figure everyone else raised prices in a recession so now they are going to do the same. When I drive by the wholesale car auction place here it is full of cars. And with loss of income I imagine many are not buying new and keeping their used instead of trading it in. Whatever the case we are losing in this game.


AGREED! I wish we'd stop supporting the damn world and pay attention to our deteriorating country. Things are a real mess. I know parts of the world are a real mess....but what about our home?

also agreed on the cars...lol. Both were tin built. I miss old cars though. I had an 82 toyota truck that would jar your back into pieces but man was it simple to work on.


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## willdabear

im a half full kind of guy and i think that technology has come a long way. yeah some of the real top shelf stuff is hard to come by but like everyone has said, theres no market for it. that doesnt mean that the stuff we can afford is cheap. ive had a 9887 in all of my cars and i loved that head unit. sure it wasnt some old school audiophile head unit but ill be damned if your gonna tell me it didnt sound good. and also everything today is about efficiency. yeah the fridge worked for 40 years but a new one will use a fraction of the electricity. just like new amps will consume less power. 

and in reference to old cars. easy to work on, some of them. i dont know if youve ever had to rejet or tune carbs but its a pain. fuel injection is the way to go, and now days direct injection is even better, hugely more efficient than carbs. not even the same planet. its all trade offs. yesterday we chased vaccum leaks today we chase shorts and opens. technology is always advancing and i personally would not want to start going backwards.


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## Kryptoroxx

willdabear said:


> im a half full kind of guy and i think that technology has come a long way. yeah some of the real top shelf stuff is hard to come by but like everyone has said, theres no market for it. that doesnt mean that the stuff we can afford is cheap. ive had a 9887 in all of my cars and i loved that head unit. sure it wasnt some old school audiophile head unit but ill be damned if your gonna tell me it didnt sound good. and also everything today is about efficiency. yeah the fridge worked for 40 years but a new one will use a fraction of the electricity. just like new amps will consume less power.
> 
> and in reference to old cars. easy to work on, some of them. i dont know if youve ever had to rejet or tune carbs but its a pain. fuel injection is the way to go, and now days direct injection is even better, hugely more efficient than carbs. not even the same planet. its all trade offs. yesterday we chased vaccum leaks today we chase shorts and opens. technology is always advancing and i personally would not want to start going backwards.


Oh yeah. Had to do it all the time to the 82. Bought her with a screwed up jet job on her. I taught myself how to do the jets and rebuilt the carb while I was at it. It was a pita....but then again it takes a lot of expensive equipment to remap a ecu for air/fuel if you upgrade parts too.....so there's give and take.


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## jonatbaylor

The key here, is *high end.*.

If its older high end stuff, it's going to at minimum, compete with just about anything out right now.

The reasons, are because the quality builds were higher, things were more often made here in the US, NA or Japan and not in China or elsewhere for cheaper labor and cheaper parts.

That and a lot of companies are either now gone, or stopped selling higher end stuff altogether because they couldn't get enough volume out of it to make a profit. A lot of things went down hill about 2005. Throw in a bad economy and here we are.

Plus, 90% of the NA market shops at Best Buy, Walmart and Target...and none of those stores are going to carry a 1000.00 pair of Boston Acoustics Z6's or 650.00 SPZ's or something, because that is not their target demographic. They'll offer some Sony Explodes, Pioneers, or some Alpines maybe for like 100-200 bucks. Gone are the days of even smaller to mid size chains with high end stuff like Circuit City and Good Guys. That is not to say that smaller high end shops haven't hung in...they have...but holy cow they are 1/15th of what they used to be in numbers.

So with all of that said, I'd put *any *of my older stuff against whatever is out right now...

-McIntosh HU with DAC
-McIntosh Amps
-butler Tube Amps
-Boston Pro Z6's.

Bring it on biotches! lol


----------



## jonatbaylor

I'd also like to ad, that because of the changes in the music industry itself, we have more reasons why high end SQ has slid, at least in popularity and awareness.

For example, CD's are out, gone the way of the dodo. Hell, I haven't even bought but 5 in like 10 years. But we all know that the CD sound quality maybe greater than anything on an mp3 player. Then adding that with the crap systems pushed at most consumers today and here we are..and thats all the newer generation has now. They want to play stuff off their ipod or whatever.

So I would even gamble that a lot of the young pups don't even konw what good sound is...because they have never heard it. In the next 10 years we could have a new round of Car Audio buyers who have never even owned a CD before and never heard what it sounds like...


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## chad

jonatbaylor said:


> But we all know that the CD sound quality is much greater than anything on an mp3 player..


I'm curious to hear your theory behind this.... The most popular ones have no issues with uncompressed audio files.


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## jonatbaylor

chad said:


> I'm curious to hear your theory behind this.... The most popular ones have no issues with uncompressed audio files.


I reworked my original statement to remove a bit of my bias... so I now state, "But we all know that the CD sound quality maybe greater than anything on an mp3 player" that way it isn't so concrete.

I've used MP3 tracks from 192 up to 320kbps. Needless to say, its harder to distinguish between the 320k and a CD.

Much like one of the links below will state, I did my own 'blind test' with 4different friends but my test was different, naturally. I didn't even talk about what I was having them do. I just made up something, calling it an "amp" tweak. All I did was just have them listen to MP3's and CD's and tell me which sounded better. all 4 told me the CD sounded better, even though it wasn't a 'huge' difference. My test used 320kbps..

I think a lot of it comes down to how the ear picks up frequencies, and how good your frequency range is (there is variance from p-2-p). The other key thing here for me..is that I DAC it all...so it all goes to analog. Its a warmer, truer sound, which is also why I switched to Tube Amps as well..

MP3 vs. CD Audio Quality Tests

CD vs MP3 Sound Quality


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## TrickyRicky

Vinyls are coming back.


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## splaudiohz

TrickyRicky said:


> Vinyls are coming back.


I thought I was the only person who thought this. I just picked up a 6 disc Alpine with the built in DAC to add to my 7996. Oh yeah. H701 and mid 90s ppi amps should be here monday. Giggity giggity alright.


----------



## ChrisB

TrickyRicky said:


> Vinyls are coming back.


I came close to grabbing another turntable so I could start collecting 180 gram vinyl. Maybe I will do so next year!


----------



## TrickyRicky

ChrisB said:


> I came close to grabbing another turntable so I could start collecting 180 gram vinyl. Maybe I will do so next year!


Am going to start on a home set up next year. I know thats expensive but I will see how it goes. My wife also agrees, home audio would be best for the both of us (just can't picture my toddlers messing with the speakers and receivers).


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## wheelieking71

good gear, is good gear. dont sweat the B.S. and dont take everything so seriously. just have fun. if your having a good time with older gear, WOO-HOO! if you have enough money to buy "good" new school stuff, good for you! thats awsome! all i know is i have 36channels of old school amplification. and just for the sake of round numbers, i have less than $2000 into all of it (5 adcom's, 9 Soundstreams, and one Brax). it would cost me $10,000 easy to buy "new school" amps to equal the quality of my old gems. so for *ME* its all about first: having a good time. second: being able to afford said good time. tinkering is half the fun for me, and i cant afford to tinker with TRU's, and Sinfoni's. so ADCOM's, and Soundsteam's it is. old-school baby!

i do agree however that CD's have grown quite cumbersome now that USB is soo easy. im not even any good at it yet. just getting started in "computer audio". i just bought a cheap sound-card, and work lossless in windows media player. and its really damn close to CD quality. and who wouldnt want to have thier whole library in thier pocket on a 16gig stick?!


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## jonatbaylor

wheelieking71 said:


> good gear, is good gear. dont sweat the B.S. and dont take everything so seriously.
> and who wouldnt want to have thier whole library in thier pocket on a 16gig stick?!


Ya I'm with you on that - it is all about the enjoyment when it comes down to it...I just enjoy really nice ****


...from the early 2000's lol


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## splaudiohz

jonatbaylor said:


> Ya I'm with you on that - it is all about the enjoyment when it comes down to it...I just enjoy really nice ****
> 
> 
> ...from the early 2000's lol


knock at least a decade off of that for me


----------



## jonatbaylor

splaudiohz said:


> knock at least a decade off of that for me


I horded a bunch of stuff in like 2005-2008. Bought like 4 sets of Boston Z6's, 5 McinTosh amps, 6 HU's of various kinds, equalizers all types of stuff.

Now though its like jesus I've got so much laying around not being used, gotta let someone else enjoy it


----------



## Vanlan

Personally, old school vs new school is very simple. As a high schooler working a part time job, there is no way that I can afford the power output and SQ that I get from buying used old school amps. A Autotek xs400.2, a Memphis 16-st-3004, a PPI 2240, and an MTX 4320 have proved that to me. Total cost of all those amps = $180. When it comes to pure SQ, I can't really speak on it, but bring in value, and I'm old school ALL the way. 2 cents.


----------



## truckerfte

Vanlan said:


> Personally, old school vs new school is very simple. As a high schooler working a part time job, there is no way that I can afford the power output and SQ that I get from buying used old school amps. A Autotek xs400.2, a Memphis 16-st-3004, a PPI 2240, and an MTX 4320 have proved that to me. Total cost of all those amps = $180. When it comes to pure SQ, I can't really speak on it, but bring in value, and I'm old school ALL the way. 2 cents.


That is a valid mentality. Some of the old school stuf can be a real value. For example, I've got about 10 or so old alphasonik amps sitting at the house. I might have about $130 in all of them. They all work great, just a little beat up. 

And besides, didn't someone here just win a pretty big trophy using some old school audio art amps?

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk


----------



## ChrisB

truckerfte said:


> And besides, didn't someone here just win a pretty big trophy using some old school audio art amps?


Does winning a USACi SQ trophy with old school amps necessarily make it the proverbial best though?


----------



## truckerfte

ChrisB said:


> Does winning a USACi SQ trophy with old school amps necessarily make it the proverbial best though?



I don't know. But apparently it did on that day. When it counted
Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk


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## 96jimmyslt

New stuff with warranty > old stuff

nuff' said


----------



## ChrisB

96jimmyslt said:


> New stuff with warranty > old stuff
> 
> nuff' said


lol, that's been my mentality as of late. There is nothing like buying a 15 year old amp on eBay only to have something wrong with it. Sure, the fix may be quick and/or simple, but, I prefer something that works correctly out of the box with a warranty.


----------



## jonatbaylor

96jimmyslt said:


> New stuff with warranty > old stuff
> 
> nuff' said


taking a quote from tommy boy...

Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of ****.
Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time.


----------



## jonatbaylor

If the equipment is high quality stuff, I know its going to work and a warranty means little. So 'new' stuff doesn't get the nod.

'nuff said.


----------



## underdog

My 2 cents ain't worth much
Old school = build on a budget
New stuff = crap shoot on quality ; may be big money

Biggest differences i have been seeing.
Power needs.
Old school usually = big power needs
New school = seems to be less power hungry

Size 
Old school = large
New schools = can be very small (seen some the size of a pack of smokes)

So if you are riding in the latest econo box new school may be the only answer


----------



## ChrisB

jonatbaylor said:


> If the equipment is high quality stuff, I know its going to work and a warranty means little. So 'new' stuff doesn't get the nod.


You have been duped into a false sense of security. Components fail over time and even the best gear from 15 years ago is one power cycle away from going up in a blaze of magical smoke. Maybe the repair will be simple, maybe it won't. 

All I know is I want someone to drive over to my house and pimp smack me if they ever see me investing nearly $500 in an old school 75x2 amplifier again. There was nothing more disheartening than purchasing something I always wanted, having it not work properly, then having to send it off to multiple repair places in order to get it operational again.


----------



## TrickyRicky

I've decided to put my effort and money in a home theater instead of car audio. There is no way you will ever be able to compare car audio to home audio. In home you have way more control of many things you dont in the car audio world.

I started with a Marantz DVD player (5-disc), and will then buy the receiver, amplifier, speakers. Am thinking about getting Toby Guynn's speakers and enclosure designs for my satellite and woofer set ups. Plus he will be very close to were I'll be staying and can help if am not happy with set up. He's very helpful as I recall back in 2004 when I last visited his store, he now has new enclosures for cars that are crazy loud with just a few watts.


----------



## maKe|

splaudiohz said:


> It has cost me more money then I care to admit to, but I bought and sold a few different HUs and amp setups to get where I am now. Bought a CDA-117 with Imprint and paired it up with a Zapco DC REF 650.6 that powered a Focal Utopia 3-way setup. I put a OLD DVA-7996 in place of that CDA-117 and there was a jaw dropping sound quality difference. It actually sounded like "real" music. ****ty to say it, but I sold off my cda setup and am now staying with the older alpine.


I also figured out that new Alpines are really average when it comes to sound, even if they advertise it has all the bells and whistles a hyper 24bit BB dac (chip that costs only a few $!) etc etc.

So I trusted my insticts and sold my 117ri and h100 imprint and bought 7998R old skool HU that only does cd playback.... well the difference must be pretty huge because I am using it right now in my home setup as as a source/preamp and it sounds very very good. Not quite good as my Eastern Electric Minimax DAC ($1k dac) and using PC as source. Can't wait to put it in car, but I need H701 or H800 before I can use it. But then again the sound will change because the processors Dacs are being used when using optical from HU...oh well.


----------



## sqnut

ChrisB said:


> Does winning a USACi SQ trophy with old school amps necessarily make it the proverbial best though?


Nope. Winning sq championships has more to do with tuning and install skills than the equipment you run.


----------



## truckerfte

sqnut said:


> Nope. Winning sq championships has more to do with tuning and install skills than the equipment you run.


This. i meant to expand i my earlier statement.

His win proves that this whole discussion is really pointless. Assuming a reasonable quality product, it does not matter. Im sure he would have done just as well with more modern amps. What i love about it is the fact that new and old school can live in harmony in the same install. 

I like my n2. its small, efficient, looks good, and works great. That being said, my 225hcca, while much bigger, runs hotter, and sucks more juice still gives me a bigger boner.


----------



## DiMora

Well...all my old amps died.

Soundstream MC245: toast
Soundstream Rubicon 405: toast
Soundstream Reference 405: toast 
Soundstream USA 364: Toast

I have one last Rubicon405 that is still alive...

So I would say that old gear, while it sounded great, tended to overheat and make " the magic smoke".


----------



## azvrt

DiMora said:


> Well...all my old amps died.


When your car has a flat tyre, do you push it off a cliff ? Usually, no.
You have it repaired.
You might want to have your amps repaired, Since you have several, you should be able to get a discount from a repair guy, if you send them in all at once.

Just a thought.


----------



## chad

saw that coming from a mile away..... 

DiMora, these old school nuthuggers are as tied to this stuff as most are tied to their sexuality...

They still rock a 386 computer too.


----------



## ChrisB

chad said:


> saw that coming from a mile away.....
> 
> DiMora, these old school nuthuggers are as tied to this stuff as most are tied to their sexuality...
> 
> They still rock a 386 computer too.


They also like to reminisce about the four touchdowns they made in one game all while selling shoes at a store in the mall. I wonder if they still drive the SAME car that they had while in high school too?:laugh:


----------



## TrickyRicky

ChrisB said:


> They also like to reminisce about the four touchdowns they made in one game all while selling shoes at a store in the mall. I wonder if they still drive the SAME car that they had while in high school too?:laugh:


"If only coach would of put me in on 4th quarter, we would of been state champs..." lol


----------



## pionkej

I have ZERO interest in OS amps. Some speakers DO appeal to me though (mainly JBL GTi series stuff). 

I don't let either dictate my choice of gear though. I also don't fault anybody for liking/wanting OS gear...as long as it's for a reason other than, incorrectly, thinking new gear is junk.


----------



## azvrt

chad said:


> saw that coming from a mile away.....


Then it must be a logical thought 

In all seriousness, the comment I made was not related to new / old stuff.
It just makes sense to at least consider to have those amps repaired.

But yes, we love our stuff and sometimes even fondle the items. Passion and commitment is what drives us.
You might want to try it 

I couldn't imagine putting any car audio item in my car for which I do not feel any emotional attachment. Somehow only the old stuff makes my heart beat faster. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't imply that I think there's not any good stuff being made any more, I'm just not interested in it.
Same for cars, I'm not very much interested in anything that's been made the past 10 years.
For instance I'd rather own a 40+ year old Corvette (in mint condition) than a brand new modern one. While the new one probably outperforms the older one in any way, it's just a matter of personal preference.


----------



## chad

LOL emotional attachment... All my **** is hidden, I forgot what my amp looked like till 2 weeks ago when I went to check the pressure in the spare


----------



## azvrt

Didn't you take the oppportunity to fondle it ?


----------



## danno14

truckerfte said:


> *What i love about it is the fact that new and old school can live in harmony in the same install. *
> 
> I like my n2. its small, efficient, looks good, and works great. That being said, my 225hcca, while much bigger, runs hotter, and sucks more juice still gives me a bigger boner.


Best quote of the thread IMHO! I would guess all consider my amps to be "old school"..... so I suppose I should sell 'em cheap. Since one guy said he wouldn't pay $500 ever again, $200 each is probably more in line. So, without further:

Mcintosh MCC406M's- two of them
Zapco C2K9.0
MC420M- Maybe $100?
MC443M- $100?
SS Ref500NIB (prolly only worth $20)









Darn. After PP fees, shipping boxes, etc. I will probably only net $500 for the lot.... Might as well keep em. (remember- the quote I agree with>above  )

Yes, the Mac's are big and not as efficient as Class D. The Zapco, fairly big but pretty darn efficient/effective. IF I drove an econo-box I would likely put in an econo-system :blush:


----------



## djfourmoney

oldno7brand said:


> Give me old blaupunkt heads, A/D/S PH 15 or Gray case Powerclass gear any day of the week.
> 
> Still rocking my 7949 for 10 years and running.
> I even have Sirius SIR-ALP1 running through it via the external display/xm tuner lol (Desperately clinging to my head)
> 
> Sorry CDA-117's and 4 different amp companies all with the same boards don't do it for me (What a joke)


 If you have DIN cables, I have a 642 Crossover and Grey PH-15 I'll let go for a reasonable price.


----------



## ChrisB

Since older is better, I'm going to seek out a 1981 Chevrolet Malibu Classic like I drove in high school or a 1981 LTD with the 1984 front end like I drove in college.

NOT!

:laugh:


----------



## Wattser93

I think it's just the same as grandparents always talking about how great things were "back in their heyday". You tend to only remember the good experiences in the past, and not the bad. The same goes for old school gear IMO.

If you compared the older stuff to the newer stuff at the same price point, I think the new stuff would win more often than not. Old school gear was pricey, and built well. The modern stuff that's pricey, is also built well, while boasting efficiency. It's the poorly built new school gear that's inferior to old school gear.


----------



## DiMora

azvrt said:


> When your car has a flat tyre, do you push it off a cliff ? Usually, no.
> You have it repaired.
> You might want to have your amps repaired, Since you have several, you should be able to get a discount from a repair guy, if you send them in all at once.
> 
> Just a thought.


I would if I still had them, but I chucked them all in the garbage about 10 years ago...if I had them now I would have them all repaired and I would sell them to old-school lovers on here, LOL. I switched to Eclipse power about ten years ago...on the same old-school system that had taken the life of all those Soundstream amps, and I haven't had an amp die since then. Those Eclipse PA series amps are the sheezy.



azvrt said:


> Then it must be a logical thought
> 
> In all seriousness, the comment I made was not related to new / old stuff.
> It just makes sense to at least consider to have those amps repaired.
> 
> But yes, we love our stuff and sometimes even fondle the items. Passion and commitment is what drives us.
> You might want to try it
> 
> I couldn't imagine putting any car audio item in my car for which I do not feel any emotional attachment. Somehow only the old stuff makes my heart beat faster. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't imply that I think there's not any good stuff being made any more, I'm just not interested in it.
> Same for cars, I'm not very much interested in anything that's been made the past 10 years.
> For instance I'd rather own a 40+ year old Corvette (in mint condition) than a brand new modern one. While the new one probably outperforms the older one in any way, it's just a matter of personal preference.


The old / new is a tough call sometimes...I am attached to certain gear too. I am switching to Alpine with Imprint, and I am really going to miss my AudioControl Epicenter, LOL.

I went through the same thing with cars...I have a 2006 Roush Mustang (blown) with 512 RWHP. See avatar. I really wanted an old-school muscle car, but when I looked at cost, performance, etc...I just couldn't beat modern performance. My car flat out hauls.

I find the same thing with audio gear for the most part. Back when I competed, everything was power-class driven and everyone had "100 watt" systems driven by Orion HCCA's and Soundstream Class A's and they were actually making 400-800 watts - the amps got hot enough to fry an egg on, and they regularly made the magic smoke.

A modern class D amp will lay down 1,000 watts into a 4 Ohm load...no IASCA low watt gamesmanship there...just good, pure power that gets your sub bumping. They are reliable, light weight, and they don't get hot.

FWIW, I am going to run a pair of Eclipse PA5422's (A very musical amp, and very reliable too) and a single Eclipse ZA1200 for my sub.


----------



## todj

Head units: Look better and have higher preouts with more features than yesterdays units. (improved)

Amps: A/B sub amps were less efficient and ran hotter as a result. This caused you to run the risk of it possibly catching fire. Class D and others are more effiecient and run cooler as a result. Door amps seem to have gone down in quality/stayed unchanged.

Subs: Improved components and understanding has brought subs a long way. We know better methods to create cones, know better types of voice coils and formers. We even have XBL2 and LMS tech. These are the times for subs. Old school only had over and underhung. 

Speakers: have improved as well. A lot of R&D has went into the design of today. I would say by a very slim margin.


----------



## splaudiohz

todj said:


> Head units: Look better and have higher preouts with more features than yesterdays units. (improved)


I will admit they do look better and some have higher preouts. Personally my old school alpine has 5v preouts. I know of a few older ones (like Eclipse) like that. That would supersede that of newer ones. 



todj said:


> Amps: A/B sub amps were less efficient and ran hotter as a result. This caused you to run the risk of it possibly catching fire. Class D and others are more effiecient and run cooler as a result. Door amps seem to have gone down in quality/stayed unchanged.
> 
> Subs: Improved components and understanding has brought subs a long way. We know better methods to create cones, know better types of voice coils and formers. We even have XBL2 and LMS tech. These are the times for subs. Old school only had over and underhung.
> 
> Speakers: have improved as well. A lot of R&D has went into the design of today. I would say by a very slim margin.


The rest I can agree with


----------



## jonatbaylor

splaudiohz said:


> I will admit they do look better and some have higher preouts. Personally my old school alpine has 5v preouts. I know of a few older ones (like Eclipse) like that. That would supersede that of newer ones.
> 
> 
> 
> The rest I can agree with



First thing I want to say, is that you guys make some good points. 

Then i'd like to add, that there is no way to broadly paint a phrase and make it correct such as "newer is better than old, or older is better than new."

The best way I can put my opinion down, is to say that the top of the line old gear from the 90's stacks up just fine against almost anything out today. Maybe the subs won't, which is fine. But the amps, HU's and several speakers can.

If you have something that sounds cleaner than the McIntosh amps and HU I've got installed, let me know. P Its hard to find something better than the McIntosh brand when it comes to amps and HU's. The speakers left a lot to be desired.

Something I don't think I've seen anyone mention yet, is price points. Since the industry started to sink in the early 2000's, companies had to come up with products that were lower in price to attract more customers so that they could stay in business and make a profit. Naturally, something has got to give...and its the quality.


----------



## splaudiohz

My neighbor has two sets of Boston Pro series. I emailed Boston to price recones for them. 117.00ea shipped.


----------



## AAAAAAA

I like to think amplifiers are no different then other electronics in general. And this is exactly why I am an old school person.

This is also why I still use a 386 for my computer because nothing new can compute quite as accuretly as my 386 can. You should see the 1's and 0's that come out of it...so clean and accurate, not like the ****ty 0 and 1's that todays computers put out, they make up for their crap by putting out a bunch more of them but I don't like it. The real world 0 and 1's of the past ar way better to work with.


----------



## stopdrpnro

i think this boils down to advances vs profit margins. while there have been tons of advances in car audio there has also been a lot of steps backwards in terms of quality in the quest for higher profits. it reminds me of the 12" vs mp3 debate.


----------



## splaudiohz

We can drag Matt R in here and he can give us an "Inside" depth on what he thinks is better......old or new.


----------



## prettysweetsounds

while there have been tons of advances in car audio there has also been a lot of steps backwards in terms of quality in the quest for higher profits. it reminds me of the 12" vs mp3 debate.[/QUOTE said:


> yeah because profit wasn't an issue in the 'good old days'.
> 
> Gear today is far better and people view the past with rose colored glasses


----------



## splaudiohz

prettysweetsounds said:


> yeah because profit wasn't an issue in the 'good old days'.
> 
> Gear today is far better and people view the past with rose colored glasses


Based on that statement I say I will swap out an older F1 series head unit and put in a brand new CDA117 and call it a day.


----------



## quality_sound

New HUs look better than old? Hardly. Amps are the same way. WAY too much going on. Simpler is better. Speaker technology HAS gotten better but a lot of them are also way too flashy and I hate this trend of smaller cones but more excursion.


----------



## sqshoestring

Sure it happened someplace, but never saw an amp catch on fire because it was class AB and ran hot. You had to cool those amps or have them out in the open. Today people like to hide them under a false floor and you just can't without fans/etc. Class D is way better for this because they are more efficient and run cooler. Certainly most amps are not built like the bricks of old that held up for decades no problem, and they do the same job more or less.

I'd agree subs are way better and great selection. HU have more features but I'm not totally sold they output the SQ of some old ones.


----------



## splaudiohz

sqshoestring said:


> HU have more features but I'm not totally sold they output the SQ of some old ones.


I will rarely be sold. There are a couple new ones out there though.


----------



## AKheathen

DiMora said:


> I would if I still had them, but I chucked them all in the garbage about 10 years ago...if I had them now I would have them all repaired and I would sell them to old-school lovers on here, LOL. I switched to Eclipse power about ten years ago...on the same old-school system that had taken the life of all those Soundstream amps, and I haven't had an amp die since then. Those Eclipse PA series amps are the sheezy.
> 
> 
> 
> The old / new is a tough call sometimes...I am attached to certain gear too. I am switching to Alpine with Imprint, and I am really going to miss my AudioControl Epicenter, LOL.
> 
> I went through the same thing with cars...I have a 2006 Roush Mustang (blown) with 512 RWHP. See avatar. I really wanted an old-school muscle car, but when I looked at cost, performance, etc...I just couldn't beat modern performance. My car flat out hauls.
> 
> I find the same thing with audio gear for the most part. Back when I competed, everything was power-class driven and everyone had "100 watt" systems driven by Orion HCCA's and Soundstream Class A's and they were actually making 400-800 watts - the amps got hot enough to fry an egg on, and they regularly made the magic smoke.
> 
> A modern class D amp will lay down 1,000 watts into a 4 Ohm load...no IASCA low watt gamesmanship there...just good, pure power that gets your sub bumping. They are reliable, light weight, and they don't get hot.
> 
> FWIW, I am going to run a pair of Eclipse PA5422's (A very musical amp, and very reliable too) and a single Eclipse ZA1200 for my sub.


actually, that does bring to mind a nice option for old school lovers such as myself. specifically, i keep an eye out for the older ss amps that would crap itself with a little abuse, just like a puppy. they had inherently weak power supply sections, and most failures happened right there. so, i applied some new school upgrade, and viola'! nice old school quality amp with new school parts that would keep it running cool and stable. i remember watching the big change happen at the turn of the century, and watching equipment from certain manufacturers go from real nice quality, to cheap junk, and the chepa junk of the day really not changing much at all, yet is considered decent in today's standards. shoot, remember when stinger was the wal-mart crap you bought because you couldn't afford the good stuff? what i am saying- is that the old school stuff was great in build quality, but still only as advanced as the time. i even still love the old school directeds that would handle being run hot enough to cook an egg, like the a/b's, yet put out better being class d. some of the first out-of-the-box strappables, and i'm up to 6 1100d's right now. i can tell you now, if i had the funds, i would start a line of new "old-skool" amps, incorporating old school build quaity and new technologies, where beneficial. btw, i do have a few first gen pony cars, and one is a resto, (the 69 firebird), and next on the platter is the 67 bird, which is going to be built with modern power and custom chassis/suspension, mostly from scratch and integrated with all modern tech.. as we speak, there is about 40 amps, mostly old school on the block for revival, and most are getting upgrades. so, i love my old school, but i do not throw new tech out the window for it...... now that i think of it, even my workbench is transforming to vintage appearance with re-worked guts, lol..


----------



## rockytophigh

DiMora said:


> I would if I still had them, but I chucked them all in the garbage about 10 years ago...if I had them now I would have them all repaired and I would sell them to old-school lovers on here, LOL. I switched to Eclipse power about ten years ago...on the same old-school system that had taken the life of all those Soundstream amps, and I haven't had an amp die since then. Those Eclipse PA series amps are the sheezy.
> 
> 
> 
> The old / new is a tough call sometimes...I am attached to certain gear too. I am switching to Alpine with Imprint, and I am really going to miss my AudioControl Epicenter, LOL.
> 
> I went through the same thing with cars...I have a 2006 Roush Mustang (blown) with 512 RWHP. See avatar. I really wanted an old-school muscle car, but when I looked at cost, performance, etc...I just couldn't beat modern performance. My car flat out hauls.
> 
> I find the same thing with audio gear for the most part. Back when I competed, everything was power-class driven and everyone had "100 watt" systems driven by Orion HCCA's and Soundstream Class A's and they were actually making 400-800 watts - the amps got hot enough to fry an egg on, and they regularly made the magic smoke.
> 
> A modern class D amp will lay down 1,000 watts into a 4 Ohm load...no IASCA low watt gamesmanship there...just good, pure power that gets your sub bumping. They are reliable, light weight, and they don't get hot.
> 
> FWIW, I am going to run a pair of Eclipse PA5422's (A very musical amp, and very reliable too) and a single Eclipse ZA1200 for my sub.


Now don't get all "mad" about this but there's also more to it than price vs. performance. If that was the case you could have shoe horned a 454 in a Pinto. With the new Stang....you get better $$$ per hp/torque, but you lose in the pull up to the store & everyone drool over your '70 Mach I factor. 

Give me those Class A Sounstreams anyday.....if they're the class A 50 or 100 models.

While I'm typing....I'm gonna say this. I HATE the new Boston Acoustic components. I loathe them. I loved my Pro 6.2 set. magical and clear. These last 4 sets I've ran haven't been nearly as revealing. I'm switching to Imagines to see if I like their stuff better.

Love the discussion guys...keep her rollin'.


----------



## splaudiohz

I am seriously considering paying what Boston wants for the recones for the 1994 6.5 pros I need to refurbish.


----------



## rockytophigh

splaudiohz said:


> I am seriously considering paying what Boston wants for the recones for the 1994 6.5 pros I need to refurbish.


You would be wise IMO. for that kind of $$$ you can't find anything remotely close to sounding as good. Now, I've never played an iPod through them....always cds and they are very revealing as you know.


----------



## chad

rockytophigh said:


> Give me those Class A Sounstreams anyday.....if they're the class A 50 or 100 models.


Not really class A. 

How to find out, can you slow cook roast beef on it when it's not playing music? No? Not class A.


----------



## splaudiohz

rockytophigh said:


> You would be wise IMO. for that kind of $$$ you can't find anything remotely close to sounding as good. Now, I've never played an iPod through them....always cds and they are very revealing as you know.


I never thought there was a difference between an iPod and cds.......after switching to my new old head unit and processor I can hear a world of difference between the two. Reverting to cds for sound quality and the ipod for highway cruising.


----------



## ChrisB

chad said:


> Not really class A.
> 
> How to find out, can you slow cook roast beef on it when it's not playing music? No? Not class A.



I also have a myth thread on car audio marketing!:laugh: In fact, if we reverse engineered the Soundstream Class A amplifiers, we'd probably find out that the class A reference is 99% marketing after it hits 10 watts RMS.


----------



## ChrisB

splaudiohz said:


> I never thought there was a difference between an iPod and cds.......after switching to my new old head unit and processor I can hear a world of difference between the two. Reverting to cds for sound quality and the ipod for highway cruising.


I can't tell the difference between the iPod and CD at 70 MPH on the interstate. Heck, all who have listened to my setup couldn't tell the difference with the car sitting there parked and not running. In fact, I have had several "old schoolers" ask me what kind of CD changer I was running because it was fast and had a lot of songs.


----------



## smgreen20

I don't know if it has been said or not, but...... Proven facts>
1) Todays technology is far superior then that from which we consider OS.
2) Studies have shown that (whatever the subject/hobby) that what got you into it (or the era) is what people consider the best. < Relates to the grandparents thing, thinking things from their era was the best.


----------



## splaudiohz

ChrisB said:


> I can't tell the difference between the iPod and CD at 70 MPH on the interstate. Heck, all who have listened to my setup couldn't tell the difference with the car sitting there parked and not running. In fact, I have had several "old schoolers" ask me what kind of CD changer I was running because it was fast and had a lot of songs.


I am sure the quality of the rip/ download comes into play. I get a cleaner sound out my older changer. Not as fast as an iPod though.


----------



## ChrisB

splaudiohz said:


> I am sure the quality of the rip/ download comes into play. I get a cleaner sound out my older changer. Not as fast as an iPod though.


Most of my music is in Apple Lossless and was extracted through Exact Audio Copy. With that said, my Plextor PX-40TSi was a great old school CD ripper back in the day.


----------



## ryanr7386

splaudiohz said:


> I am sure the quality of the rip/ download comes into play. I get a cleaner sound out my older changer. Not as fast as an iPod though.


I agree with the statement " I get a cleaner sound out my older changer" 

Specially running optically into my 3900DAC!


----------



## rockytophigh

I know they're not true Class A....never said they were. I still would love to run those amps. 

The rip has a ton to do with it. What speakers are you running Chris B?


----------



## ChrisB

rockytophigh said:


> I know they're not true Class A....never said they were. I still would love to run those amps.
> 
> The rip has a ton to do with it. What speakers are you running Chris B?


My last iteration of the sound system in my vehicle was a Alpine cda-9887, JL Audio HD900/5, Tangband w4-1757SB full range drivers for the mids/highs, Mach5 MLI-65s for the midbass, and a 13w6v2 loaded stealthbox.

Prior to that configuration, I tried a whole slew of pre-packaged components with the more notable ones being the Alpine SPX Pros and some Genesis components. I also went through a few amplifiers along the way... 53 since 2007 to be exact! 

Lately I switched gears to building up a home stereo system, but then I had to go and start another business because I had an opportunity that I couldn't pass up. Regardless, getting that off the ground has taken way more time than I initially planned for it to. The good news is it should pay off in the long run now that I got all of the red tape out of the way.


----------



## jonatbaylor

splaudiohz said:


> My neighbor has two sets of Boston Pro series. I emailed Boston to price recones for them. 117.00ea shipped.


which Pro's?

The Pro 60se?
The Pro Z 5/6 series?


----------



## jonatbaylor

smgreen20 said:


> I don't know if it has been said or not, but...... Proven facts>
> 1) Todays technology is far superior then that from which we consider OS.
> 2) Studies have shown that (whatever the subject/hobby) that what got you into it (or the era) is what people consider the best. < Relates to the grandparents thing, thinking things from their era was the best.


To some degree there is truth with this.

But since the industry consolidated in the late 90's early / 2000's, a lot of the high end stuff became extinct.

Today, unless you are going to shell out some major, major coin, the top-end stuff isn't on the level....and its not really opinion, so much as you can crack open those amps and see what components they are using.


----------



## jonatbaylor

ChrisB said:


> Most of my music is in Apple Lossless and was extracted through Exact Audio Copy. With that said, my *Plextor PX-40TS*i was a great old school CD ripper back in the day.


dude I still have a Plextor SCsI CDRW. Plextor Max 50 or somethin'...

still burns cd's faster than just about anything out..can't burn dvd's w/it though


----------



## Lars Ulriched

I'm use to MP3 and Ipod but CD still sounds good to me...but I'm just suprise to find ppl says CDs is better than SACD....hurmmm....


----------



## jonatbaylor

danno14 said:


> Best quote of the thread IMHO! I would guess all consider my amps to be "old school"..... so I suppose I should sell 'em cheap. Since one guy said he wouldn't pay $500 ever again, $200 each is probably more in line. So, without further:
> 
> Mcintosh MCC406M's- two of them
> Zapco C2K9.0
> MC420M- Maybe $100?
> MC443M- $100?
> SS Ref500NIB (prolly only worth $20)
> 
> 
> 
> Darn. After PP fees, shipping boxes, etc. I will probably only net $500 for the lot.... Might as well keep em. (remember- the quote I agree with>above  )
> 
> Yes, the Mac's are big and not as efficient as Class D. The Zapco, fairly big but pretty darn efficient/effective. IF I drove an econo-box I would likely put in an econo-system :blush:


I wouldn't even know what to do with a 420 or a 443. Hell even bridged you'r only getting, what, 100w? I'm running 200 to each speaker lol

with the 443, thats 1 channel right? I do need to power 2 8" subs and they take 300w each. But the last thing Ima do is put a mac amp on a sub....seems like a waste.

I thought the Macs were some of hte most efficient amps out there? Do you mean compared to the Zapco Class D amp?


----------



## jonatbaylor

ChrisB said:


> Does winning a USACi SQ trophy with old school amps necessarily make it the proverbial best though?


Not sure?

as soon as I can find a great installer, I'm setting up my car again for some SQ comps....using all old school stuff.


----------



## chad

jonatbaylor said:


> Today, unless you are going to shell out some major, major coin, the top-end stuff isn't on the level....and its not really opinion, so much as you can crack open those amps and see what components they are using.



LOL Major coin... someone forgot what it cost back in the 80's/90's.

EVEN IF it were the same price now, as then it would still be "expensive, even after taking inflation into account... That **** was not cheap mang.


----------



## splaudiohz

jonatbaylor said:


> which Pro's?
> 
> The Pro 60se?
> The Pro Z 5/6 series?


Copy and paset from email reply:

We sell the whole 6" woofer for the Pro 6.2 series. These are available for $114.15 each plus we add $7 for shipping. The part # is 010-000436. To order parts, you can either call us at 201-762-2099 or fill out the form below:

Name:
Physical address (No P.O. boxes):
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone #:
Part # Needed (Add quantity if more than 1):
Credit Card # (Visa/MC/AMEX only)
Expiration Date:

Please allow up to 5-7 days for delivery. Local taxes may apply.

Luigi Margarucci
D&M Holdings, Inc.
100 Corporate Drive
Mahwah, NJ 07430
[email protected]


----------



## quality_sound

chad said:


> LOL Major coin... someone forgot what it cost back in the 80's/90's.
> 
> EVEN IF it were the same price now, as then it would still be "expensive, even after taking inflation into account... That **** was not cheap mang.


Agreed. I paid $600 for my Clario ProAudio 6770 and IIRC, that same for my 7618. Yes, $600 for a CASSETTE DECK... 

People nowadays don't know how good they have it.


----------



## Mike_Dee

The reliability, and quality of parts used in old school amps was far superior to todays mass market amps.


----------



## chad

gonna have to call ******** on that one.


----------



## ChrisB

chad said:


> gonna have to call ******** on that one.


X2... 

I'd take something manufactured utilizing modern day production techniques versus something that was taken home and soldered together on someone's kitchen table! Just how many old school amps had issues due to faulty, hand soldered joints that went bad?


----------



## AKheathen

well, 2x bs^^
first, semi-conductors an other parts i put in these amps are significantly better than origonal, though there are still some that use parts, like intersil, which is lower quality materials than nte, but not a lot. for instance, you could expect some outputs in the to-220 case to be capable of anywhere from 75->50 watts, with low gain, needing high powered drivers, in the 90's. nowadays, i've installed outputs capable of 200+ in the to-220case in new products, running off tiny drivers.
second, i've seen and repaired many bad solder joints, and there are 2 factors there, and pretty much bad assembly is not part of it. it's a result of vibration, metal composition, or both. in fact, i know hand-soldered joints can be much more reliable then mechanicaly flowed joints, mostly because of better heat transfer to the parts with the iron. almost the heat bonding difference in filling a cable end in solder and just cramming the wire in, or actually flowing the joint to the cable


----------



## tnbubba

wow let me throw this out..l

I just restored two old receivers early mid 80s HK and Mac
wow do they stomp the crap out of my my new HK( garage ) sonically!.. I know they are way underrated power wise i tested the HK at 65 W vs 45 rated.. I know the newer stuff won't give u that kind of headroom..

board layouts r clean n simple n discrete circuits.. just an observation


----------



## Venomized

I love old school audio components just as much as the rest but like everything else in the world, technology evolves. Im sure the new audio uses far superior somponents in building them and making them more efficient. I will agree however that the pricing on anything decent these days is outrageous. 

But as the old adage states "You pay to play"


----------



## jonatbaylor

chad said:


> LOL Major coin... someone forgot what it cost back in the 80's/90's.
> 
> EVEN IF it were the same price now, as then it would still be "expensive, even after taking inflation into account... That **** was not cheap mang.


You think these Italian made Celestra VA Series amps are cheap?

Celestra - products

What did you think I was referring too, some **** at Best Buy? lol


----------



## chad

jonatbaylor said:


> You think these Italian made Celestra VA Series amps are cheap?
> 
> Celestra - products
> 
> What did you think I was referring too, some **** at Best Buy? lol


Jesus Christ, so you are gonna pick the Bugatti of amps to compare prices.....

They have to be expensive to have a name that sounds like an antidepressant and a website server run off of a dial-up connection. There's a WHOLE ****load between best buy and boutique.


----------



## jonatbaylor

High end old school stuff > than probably most of the new crap thats hit the shelves in the last 8 years.

Specifically I'm referring to McInTosh HU's and DACS as well as Amps, and some Nak stuff. Hell I'd even put my Boston Pro Z's against anyones **** right now and those are 8 years old.

bring it on suckas 

btw I'm saying that in a playful way.


----------



## jonatbaylor

ChrisB said:


> X2...
> 
> I'd take something manufactured utilizing modern day production techniques versus something that was taken home and soldered together on someone's kitchen table! Just how many old school amps had issues due to faulty, hand soldered joints that went bad?


I'm not sure what kind of old school stuff you are referring too. but I don't and never did mess with crap. Crap is crap in any generation...


----------



## jonatbaylor

AAAAAAA said:


> I like to think amplifiers are no different then other electronics in general. And this is exactly why I am an old school person.
> 
> This is also why I still use a 386 for my computer because nothing new can compute quite as accuretly as my 386 can. You should see the 1's and 0's that come out of it...so clean and accurate, not like the ****ty 0 and 1's that todays computers put out, they make up for their crap by putting out a bunch more of them but I don't like it. The real world 0 and 1's of the past ar way better to work with.


thats quite funny, but I don't think anyone picked up on it.


----------



## jonatbaylor

splaudiohz said:


> I am seriously considering paying what Boston wants for the recones for the 1994 6.5 pros I need to refurbish.


do it! I'm running two pairs in one of my cars. If you think the tweets are a bit high, you can tone those done with adjustments on your amp


----------



## jonatbaylor

chad said:


> Jesus Christ, so you are gonna pick the Bugatti of amps to compare prices.....
> 
> They have to be expensive to have a name that sounds like an antidepressant and a website server run off of a dial-up connection. There's a WHOLE ****load between best buy and boutique.


Ever played with these Butler amps?

Butler Audio

I'm fiddling with the 2150 and a 575. So far they sound very, very warm and rich. But I don't like the fact that there are, well absolutely no effin controls on them whatsoever...just a simple gain knob lol


----------



## ChrisB

jonatbaylor said:


> I'm not sure what kind of old school stuff you are referring too. but I don't and never did mess with crap. Crap is crap in any generation...


So true... I never messed with McIntosh amplifiers, but one of my cousins swore by them and used them exclusively for many years. I did have a couple of old school Zapcos run across my hands, and I really liked them.

My mistake was messing with the more common offerings from Linear Power, Orion, and Rockford Fosgate when I was on my nostalgia kick. Oh well, one has to make mistakes to learn from them.


----------



## airbornflght

I prefer the old over the new. We have much better understanding now than before. True, workmanship may suffer with some brands, but quality manufacturing still exists.


----------



## theeaudioboy

i been a car audio hobbiest since 94' and certain old school products are great ! and some are crap ! but the same is true right now ! but the quality of some good companies have deteriorated over the yrs ! some have disapeared all together !:worried: and new ones pop up all the time ! but i like all of my old school equipment i still have ! but also like the newer products i have bought ! although i dont buy low end stuff anymore either !? or brands that are now deteriorating ! which is some very popular brands now, that have been around for decades ! but i wont name drop do to that i probably would hurt many feelings !!! 

but my point is that like both old and new but am picky on the new !!!


----------



## 64mustang

Better depends on the person and what you consider makes it better- watts, SQ, reliability, etc. All I know is that people pay a pretty penny for 20yr old audio electronics home or car. I am impressed with some of the sub and amp makers of today if you have a 250 amp alternator and some battery's in the trunk. In the 90's you could make a car pound and sound good off 100 watts. This is a hard one, SQ today is digital and hard to beat- but I guess it depends on what sounds more natural to you? take Old school vocals that were more natural vs today's vocals which are processed and there for not entirely all real. Hmmm I like old school gear and it likes me. 

Better, hell I dont know. Another thing I know is China builds most of the crap today, not saying they cant make quality stuff they just dont get paid to build quility stuff. Take my Eclipse 5030, 2009'- made in china (pissed when I saw that) My old Eclipse3421, 2001' made in Korea with Japan/Korean parts. Both were around $300-350 new. The new one has all the bells and whistles which would make it a better deal for the cost + 8yrs of inflation, but the old one stills works great today. So all let ya know in 5yrs if the new one is still working.


----------



## Renegadesoundwave

I love old skool stuff. The sound seems to be more natural and the gear better made 

I can see in Car hifi getting worse to some degree due to the OEM installs been harder to tap into and the customer been happy with stock


----------



## Ampman

I'll stay with old school Audio equipment, i like the SQ and to top it off it's like the older vehicles if I do have one of them to go down cause of a problem I can fix it myself. Not kicking the new stuff by no means I just enjoy hearing my subs an components on an old school amps. But then again I'm old too so go figure y'all have a bless one


----------



## aaron7

As it's probably already been said many, many times (we _are_ on page 20 lol) but I think if you bought quality car audio today and compared it to quality car audio of yesteryear you'd find the newer gear is more efficient, smaller and more inexpensive. 

Old school audio is amazing, looks cool, is special because less people have it, unique, and will bring people over to your car at a show... but that's it. It's hard to locate parts for, obviously have no warranty, run hot, use tons of power, and can cost more than better, newer replacements sometimes!


----------



## Ampman

Old stuff might be bigger an run hot and pull a ton of current but I'm happy with it I'll just get more batteries and a bigger vehicle lol


----------



## TrickyRicky

I just switched and installed an AudioArt 240.4XE on my subs (yeah but thats all I have for available amps). Two 10" MTX 5500 and it sound very very nice. The bass is pretty clear and deep, unlike my friends that has a 12" L7 square woofer with a BD1000 and a knockoff epicenter.

His bass is loud but sound very nasty, not to mention the amplifier has absolutly no control of the cone.


Am happy with my AudioArt- its old school but I won't mind running AA's, used them before and never had any problems.


----------



## Ampman

TrickyRicky said:


> I just switched and installed an AudioArt 240.4XE on my subs (yeah but thats all I have for available amps). Two 10" MTX 5500 and it sound very very nice. The bass is pretty clear and deep, unlike my friends that has a 12" L7 square woofer with a BD1000 and a knockoff epicenter.
> 
> His bass is loud but sound very nasty, not to mention the amplifier has absolutly no control of the cone.
> 
> 
> Am happy with my AudioArt- its old school but I won't mind running AA's, used them before and never had any problems.


Those Audio-arts are some good sounding amps I haven't heard any of the bigger ones but I've got a 2100 high output and that thing sounds crisp and clear.


----------



## Got-Four-Eights

Ill stick with my Audio Arts over the newer equipment. Great power for the price. Most 400.2 go for around $200 and give you [email protected] 4ohm 12V or 800x1 @ 4ohm 12V.. Great power.


----------



## TrickyRicky

Got-Four-Eights said:


> Ill stick with my Audio Arts over the newer equipment. Great power for the price. Most 400.2 go for around $200 and give you [email protected] 4ohm 12V or 800x1 @ 4ohm 12V.. Great power.


LOL what I've found out is that these puppies really do put out some serioud clean power. The 240.4XE I have popped its 30amp internal fuse (never ever had that happen to me with any amp) so I figured I was pushing it to its limits. Trust me I love its limits, serious power for a 240watt amp. Sound just as loud as many 1kwatt amps. 

Just for jiggles I measured the VAC on the speaker terminals right before it clipped. I was getting on a 40hz sinewave (bridged 4-ohms- two loads) and was putting out 32vac on each side (total of 64vac) while my JL 500/1 was only putting out 40vac. But then again thats when my fuse pop on my AA, I clearly can say the AA sound just as loud as many 500watt amps but more clean and deep (for bass/woofer duty). Now I know the AA I got is made for higher fhz then woofer duty but again thats all I have right now... and I dont regret it.


----------



## salzero1

I agree and disagree. Amps are much more efficient but many brands did make better ones back in the day. For example, Hifonics was the **** back in the day. Like the Zues for example. Earthquake made an am that was 100 watts by 2 then 2000 by 2 at 1 quarter ohm!!! This basically allowed you to compete in lets say 150-300 or so depending on the competition but you were actually pushing 2000 watts! But for the most part overall I would say that electronics are better today. Especially with having mp3s instead of a bunch of cds or cassettes lol.


----------



## Renegadesoundwave

salzero1 said:


> I agree and disagree. Amps are much more efficient but many brands did make better ones back in the day. For example, Hifonics was the **** back in the day. Like the Zues for example. Earthquake made an am that was 100 watts by 2 then 2000 by 2 at 1 quarter ohm!!! This basically allowed you to compete in lets say 150-300 or so depending on the competition but you were actually pushing 2000 watts! But for the most part overall I would say that electronics are better today. Especially with having mp3s instead of a bunch of cds or cassettes lol.



The last bit blew it all away...... MP3 etc is pure rubbish compared to a good CD or Cassette


----------



## Kryptoroxx

That really depends on the quality of the mp3 file. If you're ripping straight from cd you can get cf quality....if you're using iTunes....well you lose quality. That's why I rock a Zune. It has the capability to play 320....but honestly I dont think anyone can tell the difference between 320 and 192.....

sent from my stupid smartphone with autospell.


----------



## Ampman

Ive got an old school Sony mobile ES XR-C900 cassette deck CDX-805 10 disc changer XDP-U50D digital processor setup that sounds pertty dang good connected to my old school made in USA amps even if their not as efficient as the new stuff


----------



## mww3519

How did you like the Butler amps? I am looking for something to run mids and tweets in an active 3 way front stage.


----------



## salzero1

Renegadesoundwave said:


> The last bit blew it all away...... MP3 etc is pure rubbish compared to a good CD or Cassette


What I meant it the convenience of being able to have thousands of songs on a tiny device, or jump drive etc instead of having a bunch of cds and fumbling through them. And cd quality is possible with MP3.


----------



## ChrisB

salzero1 said:


> What I meant it the convenience of being able to have thousands of songs on a tiny device, or jump drive etc instead of having a bunch of cds and fumbling through them. And cd quality is possible with MP3.


Going further, with 99% of the new music being produced with playing loud on an iPod in mind, there is rarely ever an advantage to purchase the CD over the MP3. Even for my old music that actually has dynamic range, I'd rather rip it in Apple Lossless than carry around stacks and stacks of CDs in the car.


----------



## OldSchoolAudioandVideo

Things about present day car audio... 
MP3. At high bitrate its indistinguishable from a cd.
DVD playback. 
Large TV screens with high res screens and Nav/ touch screen
Class D and high effecient amps with small size.
BALANCED INPUTS.. I never heard of any old school amp with this technology and it was a total ***** to install all that gear then turn it on to hear a dam whine... Ughhh.
More processing in one unit. Like Alpine head units with there x-overs and time delay.
USb and Hard drive hook ups.
Satellite and HD radio
REMOTE CONTROLLED.. LOL
There is more but thats what comes to mind right off..
The Head unnits today, mostly suck. They could make some super bad ass stuff for $300 but prefer to make bling bling junk with no SQ. Youre gonna pay high dollar for good SQ and that aint right. SQ back in the day is now super old technology. SO why dont they at least sell the old SQ technology for a decent price today? Greedy bitches. They wanna sell us junk.
The amps today are very small. keep cool and usually dont burn up in flames.
Old school amps are huge, heat up big time and require a beefy alternator. Do they sound better? Well. lets look at what sound better means. Them SQ amps from 90's were very expensive. In todays value they would cost something like $1500 to way more.
And actually todays SQ amps are still very expensive. So what do people do? They buy OLD SQ amps to save money. And old SQ amp vs a new SQ amp sound quality wont be any different. But the price will be. So this is why I think people go old school. 
The subs are no question to me. The new technology for subs way out does the old school subs. Just the excursion alone is way more and yields more wattage, less distortion. Less airspace and lasts longer. Remember the old cheap ass crimp terminals? Image Dynamics was very expensive and sounded nice yet still used cheap stamped steele baskets and cheap terminals that would break off. Now we got gold plated spring terminals. Hex screw terminals. Fuse loaded terminals. Just some bad ass stuff you would never see 15 years ago. I remember orion subs had crappy motors. You would be jamming and hear the motor suddenly drop off the basket LOL.. These days the subs are like tanks. You can actually replace parts of the sub. Not yester year....
So basically, you dont get any bling bling from oldschool. But then again I like Sirius and HD radio. Nav and Mp3. You have a choice between huge and oversized amps that heat up. The ground noise on old school was hell of a problem. Most old school stuff rusted. The connections were crap. Even if you do get a good old school SQ amp, you gonna need to get it tuned up, replace some outdated parts like caps and op amps or transistors. Set Bias. Replace the dried up heatsink compound.
So overall why bother ? Unless you are a real die hard old school fan and like to keep it old school, there is no reason to stay old school. 
Ive tried to stay old school since.. well forever... but the stuff today is just too dam good to put aside for an old ass, used up , time to tune up and upgrade, larger than your trunk, ground noise having, hot as hell getting, legacy parts infested, leaky caps everywhere.....old school SQ gear...... You gonna end up paying a arm and a leg for this old stuff and have to get it all cleaned and updated anyway.

Just sayin..........
Hell... I see even the hardest hard core collectors selling are there old school stuff....


----------



## CPPTG

Know this is an old thread, but I couldn't let the opportunity to share my opinion slip by.

I believe the old school stuff, mainly amps and head units, are better in every way. And not by just a little, by a MILE. They were better built, lasted longer, and sounded better. Just look at what an old Alpine 7909, Clarion drx9255, or Hifonics Colossus VII goes for on the Bay right now? These items are still commanding top dollar, and for a reason!!

Several years ago I did basically a side by side comparison of a Hifonics Brutus (class D) and a US Amps USA2000 (class A/B). The speakers were a set of Boston Acoustics Pro 6.3 components. For those that say they can't tell a difference between class D and class A/B, I feel sorry for you. There is most certainly a difference, and its not even close. The US Amps A/B was smoother, warmer, more natural, and just did an overall better job.

If you understand the design differences between A/B and D, its rather obvious why A/B is superior. For those that say today's amps are smaller, more efficient, and less expensive, you are correct! Again, if you understand the difference in design, its obvious why this is possible. But, for those of us that are not willing to sacrifice sound quality and reliability, its a very small price to pay.

In the end, I'm a firm believer in personal preference. If you like one brand, model, type, etc. over another, great! As long as you are happy with what you have, that's all that matters. However, for those that say today's amps and / or head units are better than say in the 80's and early 90's, I would have to call you plain crazy!

Regards.


----------



## OS Audio

Are SACD's still being made today?


----------



## MarkZ

CPPTG said:


> If you understand the design differences between A/B and D, its rather obvious why A/B is superior.


This isn't obvious at all. Could you explain what you mean?


----------



## JAX

CPPTG said:


> Know this is an old thread, but I couldn't let the opportunity to share my opinion slip by.
> 
> I believe the old school stuff, mainly amps and head units, are better in every way. And not by just a little, by a MILE. They were better built, lasted longer, and sounded better. Just look at what an old Alpine 7909, Clarion drx9255, or Hifonics Colossus VII goes for on the Bay right now? These items are still commanding top dollar, and for a reason!!
> 
> Several years ago I did basically a side by side comparison of a Hifonics Brutus (class D) and a US Amps USA2000 (class A/B). The speakers were a set of Boston Acoustics Pro 6.3 components. For those that say they can't tell a difference between class D and class A/B, I feel sorry for you. There is most certainly a difference, and its not even close. The US Amps A/B was smoother, warmer, more natural, and just did an overall better job.
> 
> If you understand the design differences between A/B and D, its rather obvious why A/B is superior. For those that say today's amps are smaller, more efficient, and less expensive, you are correct! Again, if you understand the difference in design, its obvious why this is possible. But, for those of us that are not willing to sacrifice sound quality and reliability, its a very small price to pay.
> 
> In the end, I'm a firm believer in personal preference. If you like one brand, model, type, etc. over another, great! As long as you are happy with what you have, that's all that matters. However, for those that say today's amps and / or head units are better than say in the 80's and early 90's, I would have to call you plain crazy!
> 
> Regards.



well I dont know about a Hifonics Brutus or how long ago several years ago was but that doesnt mean too much .

for one things are better now than years ago. technology has advanced in the amp world.

I am not a fan of a hifonics anything unless its old so you compared a cheap amp to a USA made amp that was actually really good. 


I have used all kinds and some Class D I didnt like and the current JL XD I have I do like a lot. 

I went from some USA made PPI Powerclass limited edition mint amps to the XD and I dont miss them at all. and i mean that in a sound quality way and in a current killing way.


unless your an engineer with actual details other than how that amp sounded then I think its just an opionion.

its not a fact that A/B is superior cause honeslty in some cases A/B fails where D or GH shines.

now if you want to be more specific I would like to hear that.

My engineer friend /tech is not a fan of class D but he doesnt say its just all **** either and he designs the damn things.

I agree some class D suck but not all.


----------



## tnbubba

its simple parts count to do a Class D/H/G " correctly" it take about 3x the parts count

that's 3x the cost.. why? it take all the extra part to filter out out all the switching noise..the PS transients.. and RF in the class D not t mention the need for the correct design of high speed boards ( if done properly) and they cost more// period becasue the correct required board design is harder to manufacture

so if I got an AB amp that cost the same as a CLASS D H G somebody cut corners somewhere..its a simple matter of economics. so basically the class D is going to suffer somewhere.. whether it be sonically or reliability.

not picking one or the other just to point out the economics of the situation

I understand CCPTG statement though.. theoretically class D can never reproduce a perfect waveform


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## RNBRAD

OS Audio said:


> Are SACD's still being made today?


Yes, but not at the level I would like to see them at. There's a niche group that supports it kind of like vinyl records. It's growing ever so slowly.


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## splaudiohz

RNBRAD said:


> Yes, but not at the level I would like to see them at. There's a niche group that supports it kind of like vinyl records. It's growing ever so slowly.


What are they? I haven't heard of SACDs


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## RNBRAD

Oh man, it's the true audiophile format. Quite an impressive SQ offering over standard CD. It's like going from standard definition tv to high definition. DVD-Audio is the competing high definition format. Do some research on the technology behind both formats. I'm always looking to increase my DVD Audio collection. I was hoping cd's would of been a thing of the past by now, but not quite yet.


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## JAX

tnbubba said:


> its simple parts count to do a Class D/H/G " correctly" it take about 3x the parts count
> 
> that's 3x the cost.. why? it take all the extra part to filter out out all the switching noise..the PS transients.. and RF in the class D not t mention the need for the correct design of high speed boards ( if done properly) and they cost more// period becasue the correct required board design is harder to manufacture
> 
> so if I got an AB amp that cost the same as a CLASS D H G somebody cut corners somewhere..its a simple matter of economics. so basically the class D is going to suffer somewhere.. whether it be sonically or reliability.
> 
> not picking one or the other just to point out the economics of the situation
> 
> I understand CCPTG statement though.. theoretically class D can never reproduce a perfect waveform



ok. broad statement but see the point about the parts. 

just because it has a price on it doesnt really tell much about what it is or quality of it.
the cost of a nice amp in 2000 was much more than an amp today of same power but doesnt mean the current amp is junk automatically.

but what do I know. is there really a need for an amp to last 15yrs if its going to be changed out in 1/5 that amount of time?


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## OS Audio

I'm assuming SACD's wont play in a car cd player?


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## JAX

OS Audio said:


> I'm assuming SACD's wont play in a car cd player?



I dont know anything about them other than what i just read...


maybe a Hybrid Super Audio CD would play on reg cd

Super Audio CD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## tnbubba

well considering bryston and others offer 20 yr + warranty yea I want my **** to last,...
i just replaced my zapcos from 10-12 yrs ago,,,


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## tnbubba

well considering bryston and others offer 20 yr + warranty yea I want my **** to last,...
i just replaced my zapcos from 10-12 yrs ago,,,


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## JAX

tnbubba said:


> well considering bryston and others offer 20 yr + warranty yea I want my **** to last,...
> i just replaced my zapcos from 10-12 yrs ago,,,


you just replaced your zapco amps from 2000....ok....did you run them for 12yrs yourself or are you saying you replaced 12yr old amps? 


and just how often do you think the people on this forum change their amps? 

20yr warranty ? and just what is the cost of that amp? I am not familiar with it.

but if it has a 20yr warranty then I am sure its made much better than amp X and I am sure it cost accordingly. 

realistically these days nobody is keeping amps in their car for 10yrs or else their would be nobody on this forum cause nobody would need to be.


some on here could testify that some old school made in USA amps were not even close to what they claimed and they sounded like nothing special.

you like your made in USA amps, not trying to convince you otherwise. I like old school Soundstream overall more than any other amps.

but I have had a lot of amps and I can not come to same conclusion as you and make a blanket statemetn that they are all crap unless A/B made in USA


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## MarkZ

JAX said:


> you just replaced your zapco amps from 2000....ok....did you run them for 12yrs yourself or are you saying you replaced 12yr old amps?
> 
> 
> and just how often do you think the people on this forum change their amps?
> 
> 20yr warranty ? and just what is the cost of that amp? I am not familiar with it.
> 
> but if it has a 20yr warranty then I am sure its made much better than amp X and I am sure it cost accordingly.
> 
> realistically these days nobody is keeping amps in their car for 10yrs or else their would be nobody on this forum cause nobody would need to be.


Some of us do. I've been running mine since I think 2003 or 2004? You're at the other end of the spectrum, replacing your amps every few weeks.


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## JAX

MarkZ said:


> Some of us do. I've been running mine since I think 2003 or 2004? You're at the other end of the spectrum, replacing your amps every few weeks.



well yes and no. when SS and PG and Linear where all the rage I didnt have the money to buy them. 

so I ran Alphasonic for years, then I started going to different amps but not changing them out.

wasnt until I had my first zapco and started following on ECA that I started changing amps .

not so much cause I had issue with amps but because I wanted to. I wanted to try the amps from the days when I didnt have time or funds.

I have pretty much tried all I want to and whats in the car is working fantastic for not any reall need to change.

I have had big amps and not so big amps. right now i have really small amps and they are working amazing and sound just fine.

there is zero reason for me to take them and put in some big giant old school amps that will be less efficient than what I have, put out more heat and drain my electrical.

for ME there is no reason to do that.

now if I run up on some reference 500's again or something medium size that might change again.


I wasnt always an amp collector/ swapper


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## MarkZ

Which amps did you settle on?


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## JAX

MarkZ said:


> Which amps did you settle on?



I am running a JL XD 600/6 and a JL XD 600/1 .thats 7 channels on stock electrical. actually I am running the 6 channel in 4 channel mode so 5.

together they take up hardly any space and dont get hot that i have found and have all the power I could ask for and I usually push an amp to see where its limits are.

these get as loud as I want and I havnt found a weakness. I also installed a new double din and together these are sounding excellent.


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## SilkySlim

I think the biggest problem today is that for everyone good sounding amplifier brand there are 15 flea market sounding even with good old school names. It is hard to trust but there are some needles in the haystack. There are few companies that haven't been seduced or purchased by the dark side. JL seems to be one of those shining examples. I will say the new Zeds are awesome too. 
I will maintain that a higher percentage of old school amp brands much more consistently had better performance. There are also some amps of old home and car that will stand with any amp today in SQ.
One advantage overlooked is the fact that OS stuff can be repaired more easily more common parts easier to find.


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