# VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build



## Hanatsu

Here's my first build thread on this site. Hope you'll enjoy it. I'm very interested in acoustics and tuning so I'm gonna experiment with that when the build is closer to completion. 

The car is a red VW Passat B5 -00 and I'm mostly into SQ but I also like to have some output, I listen to lots of EDM/EDM music and I'm kinda picky with my subs. This car's build has been updated/revamped two times already, so this is the third and hopefully final build in this car. Dampening and such things are already completed in an earlier stage. I'm posting pictures later...

Here's a quick overview on my equipment in any case;


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## Hanatsu

*Here's the theory:*

I find acoustics, installation and tuning to most important aspects in car audio. No matter how good equipment we use, the environment will 'always' be the bottleneck. We are pretty limited to the 'space' we got and this is a problem. I'm gonna experiment by using different techniques to tame the frequency response and decay by physical treatment before I apply processing. I'm using stock locations for midbass drivers (in doors), however all other locations will be custom. I'm doing a semi-stealthy build, not too flashy, neither entirely stock looking. Since I'm using more than 8 channels, I'm going to use both the P99 and the P-DSP for processing. I gonna stack time delay to reach 20ms+ for rear ambiance, this will also give me tuning control from the P99 over the rear ambiance speakers.

I find efficiency to be very important. I would have used Class D amps if I were buying amps today. Not gonna change my DLS amps though, they are great. The PDX amps are issue free, very pleased with them. I like the output and the small build size. 


P99RS:

*Ch1/2 - DSP Passthrough (Fullrange)
*Ch3/4 - DSP Passthrough (With applied Time Delay for rear ambiance)
*Ch5/6 - Alpine PDX 2.150 (Rear Midbass)
*Ch7/8 - DLS A4 (Tweeters)

Helix P-DSP:

*Ch1/2 - PDX 4.150 (Midbass)
*Ch3/4 - DLS A4 (Midrange)
*Ch5/6 - PDX 4.150 (Stacked time delay, Rear Ambiance)
*Ch7/8 - DLS A6 (Subwoofer)

*Equipment* = As seen from the picture above, I'm using the following gear:

Amps: 

*DLS Ultimate A4 - Midrange, Tweeters (4ch)
*DLS Ultimate A6 - Subwoofer (1ch)
*Alpine PDX 4.150 - Front Midbass, Rear Ambiance (4ch)
*Alpine PDX 2.150 - Rear Midbass (2ch)

Speakers: 

*DLS Iridium 8i - 8" 'High end' dedicated midbass driver, made for IB setups.
*Fountek FR88EX - 3" Fullrange driver, used as midrange driver.
*Vifa XT25-SC90 - 1" Ring-Radiator Tweeter
*Seas L18/H1224-8 - 7" Midbass/Midrange driver
*Dayton RS125-8 - 4" Midrange driver
*Scan-Speak 30W - 12" Subwoofer.

Source:

*Pioneer DEX-P99RS (8ch active units)
*iPod Gen5 32GB or iPad Mini 32GB via USB

DSP/Processing:

*Pioneer DEX-P99RS (Built-in DSP)
*Helix P-DSP (8ch external DSP)

Power:

*2x Banner Running Bull AGM 95Ah
*0 gauge OFC power cable (Front - Rear)
*4 gauge OFC cable from distribution blocks - Amps
*10 gauge OFC cable from rear battery - Headunit.
*11 gauge OFC cable from rear battery - DSP.
*Filter capacitors 2x 0,047F 'DIY'
*Stock alternator (well, an upgraded stock 90A --> 120A)
*Battery charger; A large C-TEK unit will be installed somewhere together with a battery "switch".
*A Stinger 2x AWG0 --> 4x AWG4 fuse distribution block
*Autoleads 3x AWG0 --> 4x AWG4 ground distribution block
*Some no-name AWG4 --> 4x AWG10 distribution block (AUX power)
*AWG8 ground cables HU --> AMPS --> Multiple ground points. 

Cables: 

*Audison ST (Between HU - DSP and HU - DLS A4 rear channel (Tweeters)
*RG75x with Neutrik RCA-plugs DIY cable (Between DSP - Amps)
*OFC Speaker cables, AWG10-15 depending on speakers. "Slightly better than standard stuff" (I don't care that much for expensive cabling really...)

*Install* = I'm gonna use a 3-way front + rear midbass drivers + rear ambiance + sub. This equals 11 channels (Front Midbass, Midrange, Tweeter - Rear Midbass, Rear Ambiance, Sub = 11ch). I got both my Pioneer P99RS and my Helix P-DSP for processing, everything will therefore the build will be fully active.

*Midbass, front* = Installed in doors, these needs to be modified to fit the bigger drivers. The stock mounting hole is 6,5".

*Midbass, rear* = The 7" drivers will fit in the stock mounting hole, no modifications are needed here. Will be placed in rear doors.

*Midrange* = The small 3" drivers will be placed in sail panels. I've tried kicks and A-pillars before and sail panels were absolutely the best location. I've made custom aperiodic enclosures for them. The drivers are aimed on-axis towards listening position.

*Tweeter* = Will be placed very close to the midrange drivers, mounted in A-pillars. These will be aimed on-axis.

*Rear Midrange (Ambiance)* = These will be used to create a "larger room" by adding delay. They will used to enhance the front stage.

*Subwoofer* = The sub is mounted in a large vented enclosure tuned very low (26-27Hz). Tested eight different enclosures (3 sealed enclosures, various sizes - 3 vented, various sizes and Fb - one 4th order bandpass and an Aperiodic box). Went with the large vented, sounded best, best efficiency and great output. I'm using a 4" semi-external port.


And uhh.. pictures are coming!


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## Hanatsu

*Some pictures:*

Here's the car, nothing fancy really. It's in decent condition though. It's a VW Passat 1.8T -00. Chipped stage1 (210Hp). Wonderful car to install audio gear in. I might change spoilers and some minor stuff later this summer to remove the stock look a bit, don't want it to look too flashy though. 

Note, some pictures are badly taken, from the phone I suppose...










My OLD build (which is removed now). I actually was in the process of removing stuff when I took the picture.










Everything removed, basically how the trunk looks right now. I've put the new sub enclosure in here.










Here's some DSPs, went with the Helix...










The old DLS Iridium 12i sub. Quite big.










The new Scan-Speak 30W sub, during burn-in for 4 days or so...










Building the midrange pods...










Pods completed. Well almost, I need to build the speaker grill as well. These will be placed in the sail panels.










Removed the cable mess behind the headunit and replaced it with my own. In the box there's a power filter.










Currently building this, should be completed and installed soon.


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## HondAudio

11 channels in an average-sized sedan? Crazy!


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## suzi427

looks like this will be interesting!


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## Sound Suggestions

:snacks: interested to hear your comments and to see your build, looks great so far


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## quality_sound

You have the exact same size midbass drivers in the front and rear doors. You have much more depth in the rear, but the same diameter drivers will fit front and rear. It's a 7" all around.

The install in my B5.5 variant was a lot flashier in the wayback, but was stealth up front.


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## Hanatsu

A small update, pulled some old pictures off photobucket (about 2 years old) on how I did the wiring/dampening. I've replaced the cables now but the cable tags around the 'flex-tex' remain the same. You get the idea... 










Incoming power for the headunit.










Replacement of the old antenna.










Dampening the outer layer of the door. Dual layers or something (can't remember exactly). It's on the verge of overkill really 










Open cell foam on top of the dampening-mat. (Before you ask, I did this two years ago and I have NO issues with moisure, mold, rust, oxides or such. The OC foam improve stuff 'slightly'. It killed a few minor resonances I had but overall it didn't do that much good (other than improving midrange, which I don't care about. Not running my 8's that high). If I would've done the dampening part today I wouldn't have bothered with it.










The Stinger distribution block, still using it. It's great!











The entire roof is dampened with STP with added 0,5" (12mm) CC foam on top of it IIRC. It was really annoying removing the stock dampening, some special butyl rubber impossible to remove with both ethanol and thinner. Had to use an industrial degreaser with -Tetrachloroethylene- (poisonous stuff, however it does remove about anything...) 

Can't find any pictures on photobucket right now, but I probably have the pic's saved somewhere. I'll have to go through all my 200k stored pictures lol...


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## hatemi

Very interesting project. I'd like to see how you managed to install those 8" DLS woofers to your doors. I have B5.5 Passat and have HAT L8V2 in my front doors, but the install was a real pain and involved some cutting, and the doorcards still need some filler and sanding before vinyl. I'm running L4SEs in the sails full range but the sweet spot is just too small to my liking. If I move my head I loose alot of detail in the upper register. I actually ordered the same Founteks and Vifa Tweeters to test if those would be better. The L4SE might be better than the Fountek, but installing 4"+ a tweeter is alot harder than a 3" mid.


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## Hanatsu

I'll update and post more pictures this weekend... Working too much atm =/

Fitting 8"s is a bit tricky yes, but it can be done. I will do it slightly different this time since I also will rebuild the inner door panel. I bought another Passat -00 for $300 a few months back, experimenting and scrapping it for parts as I build (the engine was blown).


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## Hanatsu

hatemi said:


> I actually ordered the same Founteks and Vifa Tweeters to test if those would be better. The L4SE might be better than the Fountek, but installing 4"+ a tweeter is alot harder than a 3" mid.


Never heard the L4SE, I'm sure they're great though.

I will have the Founteks in sail panels and Vifas in A-pillars, mounted very close to each other. From listening and based on measurements I'll probably use these drivers from;

HPF: 250Hz/24dB L-R (Founteks)
LPF: 3800Hz/24dB L-R (Founteks)

HPF: 3800Hz/24dB L-R (Vifas)

I wouldn't go higher than 4kHz with the Founteks, they have their sweet spot in the 500-2500Hz area imo


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## Woosey

Looking sweet!

Subbed!


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## 3fish

Hanatsu said:


> *Some pictures:*
> Currently building this, should be completed and installed soon.


Clever, very clever.

I especially love to see European builds as compare/contrast with stuff in the states and what I'm starting to see here in China.

Subscribed!


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## Wesayso

Getting in for this one, can't wait to see what you do with that much channels.
I'm only using 5 speakers myself . I played with ambience for a while but had no means to delay it enough for it to work. 
Do you plan on using L-R for that or some other signal.


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## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> Getting in for this one, can't wait to see what you do with that much channels.
> I'm only using 5 speakers myself . I played with ambience for a while but had no means to delay it enough for it to work.
> Do you plan on using L-R for that or some other signal.


Using L-R for those too


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## bbfoto

Good stuff so far...it's going to be a very nice system. Gotta love 11 channels of processing. 

Looking forward to seeing more.


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## Hanatsu

Here's the other car I bought. Nice to have a car to experiment with 










More wiring... Done with both PDX amps at least.










A blurry overview picture... It's far from finished though, looks like a mess atm.










My little relay/filter box. Inside there's a protective diode for the incoming remote turn-on. There's also 2x22000uF/25v caps in parallel with the outgoing power line to the DSP. Also a relay to turn on all 4 amps, fans, LED lighting etc etc. Installed a volt meter inside it as well. The cables are removable, used a pair of standard ISO/DIN headunit connectors. Looks a little messy up close, but I'll clean that up later... ^^



















Going to use UV-sensitive 'flex-tex' together with some UV LEDs. Looks pretty neat. The colors looks weird in the picture, my phone didn't like the UV light or something lol. 










Found another thing from the old install. Rebuilt sail panels for the DLS Nobelium1 tweeters I used before. Not gonna use these anymore... too bad, it was hard work getting those to look good. Seems like the paint got scratched while storing them too, now they look ugly instead =/


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## Wesayso

Can't wait to see what you did with the XT25, is it still in some sort of waveguide?


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## Hanatsu

I've removed the flange and I probably will make an "egg" shaped micro enclosure for it and "coax" it on top of the Fountek. I'm sort of aiming for a low diffraction construction. With the dispersion pattern of the XT25, I'm expecting great things 

When I'm finished in the trunk I'll get right on it... kinda backwards from what people usually do but whatever


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## Hanatsu

Small update, not done much. Gonna do some work this weekend


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## mrmill

Crazy install.... Very clean


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## diqq80

Nice work!


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## Hanatsu

Small update again, painted the bottom layer of the MDF. Wrapped cloth over the top layer.

A small part of the connections will be visible on purpose. Will have UV-LEDs below which will light up the UV-sensitive 'Tex-flex', the shrink tube is also UV sensitive.

Not done with the wiring yet, so don't mind the loose cables 





























And starting tomorrow I'll skip the phone camera. The images look like crap =/


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## Kellyo77

Looks great bud! Well done so far!


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## Hanatsu

Double post...


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## Hanatsu

Done with the wiring in the trunk now. I'll clean the rest up tomorrow.

I had to set gains on the PDX amps before mounting the bottom layer of the MDF, hard to reach the gain control afterwards =/

I did it wby using a -8dB sine tone at maximum output from the P99 fed through the Helix P-DSP at maximum output. Observed the clipping point with a digital o-scope. Had a 200W/4ohm - 200W/8ohm resistor in place to get correct readings. Noticed that the PDX amps are underspecced. The maximum output before clipping was 27,2V.

27,2² / 4 ~ 185W. They specced for 150W.

Here's some pictures.




























The small purple wire at the right is a additional ground cable from the headunits ground point to the trunk, have 3-4 of these between several ground points to avoid ground issues.


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## Hanatsu

Almost finished in the trunk now. Installed cooling fans and UV-LEDs, the phone camera picks up incredibly much UV light so the pictures look bright purple ( forgot to bring the damn SLR camera again... I will take proper pictures later  ).

Installed protection for the subwoofer. I actually bought the 'metal rods' from IKEA (lol). Perfect in my install, matches the amps color. 

*In addition to the 120mm fan there's 2x40mm fans on in the right side and one on the left side. There's actually 2-3" of space below the bottom layer of MDF (to the floor) and the fans creates a pretty good air flow, the PDX amps shouldn't overheat during the summer now.

Next up is the rear doors, need to make MDF rings for the Seas L18 mids. One door needs additional dampening.


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## Wesayso

The foundation is ready, time to move to the front! 
Can't wait to see where all those channels end up and how!


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## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> The foundation is ready, time to move to the front!
> Can't wait to see where all those channels end up and how!


Yeah... I'm finishing stuff backwards this time 

I have doors and A-pillars left to fix. Front doors will be lots of work since I need to rebuild them. I wanted the amps connected so I can experiment with tweeter location and aiming before I install them. 

I'm actually I have enough space below the dash to build two 4th order BP boxes to cancel out some modes in the 120-160Hz area. Need a new amp and another DSP in that case. I do have an Audison bit10 on the shelf... IF I do that I'll have 13channels to deal with 

One of these would fit under the seat...

NANO-402 - CarPower Car HiFi amplifier 250W - Europe Audio


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## hatemi

Not a bad price for a decent amp. Those are supposedly pretty damn good small amps.

And aparently around half the price that one would cost in Finland.


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## Hanatsu

Realized that I've failed in the planning stage a bit. I was originally thinking to use the P99's DSP for my tweeters, but I can't use the EQ without affecting the fullrange signal to the Helix DSP. Not sure why I didn't think of that before... Anyway, I came up with a solution to this issue, I'll simply use two external DSPs. I have an Audison Bit10 available and I'll install it under the dash somewhere, the Bit10 has 5 channels so I get another channel which I'll be using for a special purpose. So I will therefore use 12 channels in total. I have also installed another amp, a bridged modded 2ch amp which I'll be using for my... special purpose 

Funny thing is that I had issues with this Bit10 before, "white noise" sounding background noise. The issue disappeared after a firmware update, obviously software related.


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## quality_sound

Why can't you run the tweeters from the Helix?


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## Hanatsu

quality_sound said:


> Why can't you run the tweeters from the Helix?


Not enough channels...

Subs, Rear ambience, midrange, front midbass (8ch)


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## jcpahman77

Why not let the P99 handle the subs and free up two more channels on your helix?


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## quality_sound

Hanatsu said:


> Not enough channels...
> 
> Subs, Rear ambience, midrange, front midbass (8ch)


Are they real, derived, ambiance channels or just rear midbasses? 

You could also run the mids/tweeters off of the same channels since the TA isn't terribly effective on them anyway so you could feed those channels into the mids and tweeters or run them passively. I think either would be better options than running a second processor to add tweeters.


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## Hanatsu

quality_sound said:


> Are they real, derived, ambiance channels or just rear midbasses?
> 
> You could also run the mids/tweeters off of the same channels since the TA isn't terribly effective on them anyway so you could feed those channels into the mids and tweeters or run them passively. I think either would be better options than running a second processor to add tweeters.


Unfortunately there's more than just the tweeters. Rear ambiance and midbass are different drivers, will use them within a narrow bandpass. I can't use EQ on the P99 cause it will affect the fullrange signal to the Helix DSP (idk if this is much of an issue really, if I use EQ below the passband the the mids for example). Channel 7/8 on the P99 have locked highpass as well. I'd like to have separate EQ on each driver so I'd like to avoid passives atm. Is there any drawbacks I'm unaware of using dual DSPs? (except annoying to tune, this build will most likely be... time-consuming to tune lol).

1/2 Sub
3/4 Midbass FR
5/6 Midrange
7/8 Tweeters
9/10 Rear ambience (Delayed through the the P99 -> P-DSP (to reach 20ms delay)
11/12 Rear midbass drivers


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## subwoofery

Hanatsu said:


> Unfortunately there's more than just the tweeters. Rear ambiance and midbass are different drivers, will use them within a narrow bandpass. I can't use EQ on the P99 cause it will affect the fullrange signal to the Helix DSP (idk if this is much of an issue really, if I use EQ below the passband the the mids for example). Channel 7/8 on the P99 have locked highpass as well. I'd like to have separate EQ on each driver so I'd like to avoid passives atm. Is there any drawbacks I'm unaware of using dual DSPs? (except annoying to tune, this build will most likely be... time-consuming to tune lol).
> 
> 1/2 Sub
> 3/4 Midbass FR
> 5/6 Midrange
> 7/8 Tweeters
> 9/10 Rear ambience (Delayed through the the P99 -> P-DSP (to reach 20ms delay)
> 11/12 Rear midbass drivers


Different DSPs will have different output delay. For eg. the MS-8 has an 8ms delay between the sound entering the unit and exiting... 

Kelvin


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## NonSenCe

ah.. ikea.. source for speaker-salad-wooden-bowls and subwoofer-protector-door-handles.. (have used those metallic doorhandles for looong time in different subwoofers.) and im wondering if they have a cheap plastic-cuttingboard-speaker-baffle aswell. 

i hate ikea. but i like to go there to collect ideas and re-use some of the items in something totally different.


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## Hanatsu

Okey, I'm a little busy with... other things atm so the car build is currently on hold for a week more or so. I'm in the middle of getting my motorcycle (an old Kawasaki) ready for spring. It needed a repaint, found out it was more work than I initially thought (ain't it always?). 

Mess...











Well anyway, been planning and thinking a lot about the front stage and how and where I would mount the tweeters. Experimented some and found that vertically mounting was the best, above the midranges in the sails. They will almost the "coaxed" with the tweet overlapping the midrange driver slightly. I'll take some pictures on this when I'm in the garage next time.

I also ordered some additional dampening, some liquid dampener from Brax and some 7/15mm OC foam/liner from SilentCoat. Ordered two filter capacitors from Helix now as well (haven't received them yet), they will replace my DIY capacitor box below the alternator. Really want the power system to be as noise free as possible. 

In response to the different delay times though different DSPs I went ahead and measured it, there actually was a difference but I can account for that with a "global" time delay setting on the bit10. I need to use EQ without affecting the source signal output, otherwise I'd use the P99.


Here's the liquid dampener.



















MDF rings for the 8"s (made these a while back), made new aluminum (5mm) rings for mounting. I'll probably use those instead but idk yet.



















MDF rings for rear doors, probably need to make two more (over 50mm distance between the door panel the the mounting hole).



















Some random crap I ordered...










My small 'modded' 100w PWM amp. For the BP box.










Rear doorpanel...



















I'll probably wrap some dark gray or perhaps red speaker cloth over those instead...










Rear doors...










The glovebox...










"On top" of the glovebox there's lots of space. Planning to put the 2nd DSP there and place an accessible USB socket somewhere.










The engine room... At least the alternator is pretty accessible. I need to install a new power cable, the stock one is like 6gauge and it's also damn short, it barely reaches the positive pole on the battery. VAG got a bigger alternator with about 30A more output that should fit. Been thinking of acquiring one of those actually.










The interior, pretty much a big mess atm. My old kick panel with the Fountek driver is laying on the floor to the right 










I'll put the 'new' amp there somehow. Haven't figured out exactly how yet.



















I'll install the battery charger there as well.










All for now


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## Hanatsu

Went through my computer today, found all the old pictures when I first dampened the car. Might as well post them as well. Basically the whole car is dampened with CC foam now.


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## Hanatsu

Alright, an update. Finally started to work with my build again. Hoping to get it somewhat ready for EMMA comps in the beginning of May. Begun working on front doors today, rear doors pretty much finished, some cosmetic work left. Thinking of building special enclosures for my Vifa tweets in a 3D application and then send it to some company that got one of those 3D printers, haven't decided quite yet.

Tried out the liquid deadener, quite nice actually, managed to dampen some of the areas very hard to access with conventional dampener. Hardens in about 5-6 hours in room temperature and doesn't smell. Tried out the Seas L18 in the rear doors, really nice punch in the midbass but I need to fix some small vibrations in the left door before putting them to use. Made some cables for the Audison DSP and power connections for the HU. The DSP is fastened with adhesive velcro on top of the glovebox. Removed the stock dampener and put OC foam there instead, there was a plastic vent that kept rattling and I found out that it was the DSP which touched it slightly so I put some small pieces of foam on top of the DSP, looks kinda ugly but nobody gonna see it anyway. Using an extension USB cable for easy access. Even bought a power 5m extension for the USB so I can tune from outside the car.

Here's some pics. More are coming soon, actually used my real camera for most of the pictures this time. Forgot it in the garage ofc, I'll upload them tomorrow.















Fancy RCA cable between HU --> DSP.


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## Wesayso

Hanatsu said:


> Alright, an update. Finally started to work with my build again. Hoping to get it somewhat ready for EMMA comps in the beginning of May. Begun working on front doors today, rear doors pretty much finished, some cosmetic work left. Thinking of building special enclosures for my Vifa tweets in a 3D application and then send it to some company that got one of those 3D printers, haven't decided quite yet.


Yes! Do it! hahaha.... I used shapeways.com in the past but 3D Printing Service i.materialise | Home is cheaper with some materials.


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## Hanatsu

What's the approximate cost btw?  ( how much did yours cost? )

It depends I guess... 3D print is probably the best option I got.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Wesayso

Hanatsu said:


> What's the approximate cost btw?  ( how much did yours cost? )
> 
> It depends I guess... 3D print is probably the best option I got.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


You got a PM


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## Hanatsu

Quick update.

Fixed the rear doors today. There was some rattling at high volume, so I put additional dampening on the inner door side. Also wrapped black cloth over the boring stock grill, made a funny 'flower shape' in the grill while I was at it. Great output from the Seas mids, can go really high with a 65Hz/12dB crossover.

I've put seats, panels and the glovebox back. Installed the P99 and bought an additional AUX cable for the IPBUS connector. Rather not use the weird front 2,5mm connector as input when tuning. Tried out the sub as well, insane output around 25-35Hz, hard to tell it's only a single 12" really. Hm... had to fix the fans as well, too damn noisy. Installed a fan controller in the trunk, running at half speed or so, should be enough cooling for the PDX amps.

I'm in the middle of designing tweeter pods in 3D Maya, annoying program, too advanced for this simple model and I'm not that good with 3d apps... I'll have it ready tomorrow I think 

Before;



After;





And now the door panel is quiet...


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## bbfoto

Looking great, man! Nice, clean install.


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## jensclaudius

Looking forward to see and listen to the car, when do you plan to compete?
Looking great btw.


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## Hanatsu

jensclaudius said:


> Looking forward to see and listen to the car, when do you plan to compete?
> Looking great btw.


Thanks.

There's a competition at 'Ljudbyggaren' 4th May. I hope I'm done till then. 

------

Update;

Made "grills" for the midrange drivers.





































Note that the grill is pretty loose in this picture.










Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Hanatsu

bbfoto said:


> Looking great, man! Nice, clean install.


Thanks!  

Not an install pro but I'm doing the best I can.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Wesayso

Great work so far, Can't wait to see what your Maya project is all about


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity

Mind if I ask how in da world did you keep your tech flex from fraying?

Because heat shrink.

I know, but did you heat the ends? Last time I tried doing this, the whole cord went up in flames, including my finger lol

Any tips for the young grasshopper?


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## Hanatsu

MinnesotaStateUniversity said:


> Mind if I ask how in da world did you keep your tech flex from fraying?
> 
> Because heat shrink.
> 
> I know, but did you heat the ends? Last time I tried doing this, the whole cord went up in flames, including my finger lol
> 
> Any tips for the young grasshopper?


lol... xD

I'm not heating the ends on the techflex before applying the heatshrink if that's what you mean. Put some insulation tape around the techflex before heatshrinking it, usually you don't need to heat it very much to shrink IME. Most heatshrink tubes react around 125ºC or so, should be long before the anything else goes up in flames in any case ;P

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> Great work so far, Can't wait to see what your Maya project is all about


Ah I was so tired yesterday, I went straight to the sofa and watched a movie instead lol. I'll see if I can get it somewhat ready tonight 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity

Hanatsu said:


> lol... xD
> 
> I'm not heating the ends on the techflex before applying the heatshrink if that's what you mean. Put some insulation tape around the techflex before heatshrinking it, usually you don't need to heat it very much to shrink IME. Most heatshrink tubes react around 125ºC or so, should be long before the anything else goes up in flames in any case ;P
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.



Oops,

I just read on the back of the Tech Flex box it is recommended that you cut the tech flex with a hot knife, soldering iron, etc to keep the ends from frayin'

You just use a skizers?


----------



## Hanatsu

MinnesotaStateUniversity said:


> Oops,
> 
> I just read on the back of the Tech Flex box it is recommended that you cut the tech flex with a hot knife, soldering iron, etc to keep the ends from frayin'
> 
> You just use a skizers?


What's a skizer? Scissors? Then yes. Works awesome. Can post a quick vid if you want to see how I do it 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## Hanatsu

Not much done today. Had to troubleshoot massive noise in midrange channels. Found it after two hours, damn ground issue. So I added more ground points. Grounded the alternator with a 4ga cable directly to chassis. Also installed a new 33000uF cap in parallell over the alternator and grounded it with a 2ga cable. Added ground points so both HU, both DSPs and amps share the same ground as the alternator. Now there's basically zero noise from any channel with the gain cranked... 

Couldn't get a good picture over the cap, it's placed below the alternator and cannot be seen without looking real good.










Front battery ground;










Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## subwoofery

Hanatsu said:


> Not much done today. Had to troubleshoot massive noise in midrange channels. Found it after two hours, damn ground issue. So I added more ground points. Grounded the alternator with a 4ga cable directly to chassis. Also installed a new 33000uF cap in parallell over the alternator and grounded it with a 2ga cable. Added ground points so both HU, both DSPs and amps share the same ground as the alternator. Now there's basically zero noise from any channel with the gain cranked...
> 
> Couldn't get a good picture over the cap, it's placed below the alternator and cannot be seen without looking real good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Front battery ground;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


What gauge did you use for your cap? 

Kelvin


----------



## Hanatsu

subwoofery said:


> What gauge did you use for your cap?
> 
> Kelvin


2-3ga (35mm2). Cable length ~10"

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## subwoofery

Hanatsu said:


> 2-3ga (35mm2). Cable length ~10"
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


Thanks for the info... Been tring to cap my alternator to minimize some noise in the BMW. 

Kelvin


----------



## Hanatsu

It works awesome. If I would guestimate, ~90% lower noise. Could perhaps measure the AC ripple component with my Oscope to see how big the difference is. 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## subwoofery

Hanatsu said:


> It works awesome. If I would guestimate, ~90% lower noise. Could perhaps measure the AC ripple component with my Oscope to see how big the difference is.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


Would be great to see the difference 
My alternator outputs 110A so I guess I'll be fine with a 4 AWG cable. 

Kelvin


----------



## Hanatsu

This is crap that bleeds out to the electrical system from the Alpine PDX amps when they're on. Placing one of those 0,033F filter caps over the power cables seems to remove some of the noise. 

I'll try the alternator later


----------



## subwoofery

Thanks 

Kelvin


----------



## Hanatsu

Haven't measured that alternator noise yet... I will do it later this week, need to move the cap a little anyway.

Been working with the left door, nothing interesting there. Looks the same as the other one so far. Tried out the midrange pods in the car. I'm wrapping the sail panels in carbon fiber vinyl behind the pods since both of them were scratchy and ugly (the pods doesn't cover them entirely...)







(The hole is intentional, the drivers are venting through that opening).


----------



## Hanatsu

More pics...

Made new speaker "grills" for the front doors, turned out pretty good (everything's dirty as crap, literally - need to clean the entire interior tomorrow);













Damped the backside of the sailpanels;


----------



## Hanatsu

The system is up and running btw. Front mids, my fullrange drivers and subs are somewhat tuned. I will have skip the tweeters for the upcoming competition, there's simply no time to get the pods ready. I'll run the Founteks without lowpass, they reproduce 14-15k with ease with this mounting in any case.

Center image is very good so far, stage is defined. Tonality good as well. Sub/mid integration is great, can't localize the sub at all. Stage width is decent, depth as well. The sail panel placement is the best location yet of those I've tried (On-axis A-pillar, offaxis in kicks, offaxis in a-pillars). There seems to be less reflections going on, very easy to set T/A. The highs ain't perfect but decent enough, have to do a proper tuning session on Friday. The sub's response is weird, drops like a stone above 60Hz - it drops 30dB or so, kinda weird. That was my intended crossover point anyway so I don't bother looking into why it does that, mids play flat down to 40Hz, crossing them at 60Hz atm though. Founteks from 200Hz-20kHz atm. Rears are off for the moment.


----------



## Hanatsu

Well, completed the first competition in EMMA SQ Advanced Unlimited. Results were... above average. Considering that the only tuning I made was a -5dB level attenuation left side and some quick T/A, the results were kinda good. Finished the last stuff around midnight the day before the competition, no time to tune the system = not good 

Well, now I've set L/R EQ right, was off by almost 7-8dB. Have to do some fine tuning but the center image is rock solid atm, decent depth and good width and height is about as good as it can get. The 8" mids have no highpass applied yet so the sub overlap them a bit, need to fix that. They do have impressive low end extension though, they do 40Hz quite well but drops beyond that. I have a massive mode at 41Hz, so I've cut the EQ 8-9dB around there. Midrange is impressive from the Fountek FR88EX, highs not that good...

I have 1,5 week before next competition so now I have time to fix the tweeters at least. I'll most likely make some waveguide/low diffraction design. The 3D printer project was too damn expensive, they wanted over $600 for a simple design (and this was the cheapest place in Sweden). I'll have to figure something else out. 

Also I need to move a RCA cable, want to run the entire front system from the Helix DSP and use the other DSP for the "ambiance control" instead. Some small rattling from the left door as well... Enough things to keep me busy some time ^^ 

More updates soon.


----------



## Wesayso

Hanatsu said:


> I have 1,5 week before next competition so now I have time to fix the tweeters at least. I'll most likely make some waveguide/low diffraction design. The 3D printer project was too damn expensive, they wanted over $600 for a simple design (and this was the cheapest place in Sweden). I'll have to figure something else out.


Sorry to read that. Have you tried uploading to shapeways? If it's not to big it should not cost that much. It is a super easy way to make exactly what you want. My idea was to take the shape from the Scan Speak wave guides and curve it back to their mounting area.
I made it hollow to save on costs:








When finished I stuffed the hollow areas full with CLD scrap pieces.


----------



## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> Sorry to read that. Have you tried uploading to shapeways? If it's not to big it should not cost that much. It is a super easy way to make exactly what you want. My idea was to take the shape from the Scan Speak wave guides and curve it back to their mounting area.
> I made it hollow to save on costs:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When finished I stuffed the hollow areas full with CLD scrap pieces.


Looks great. I pretty much found out that I'm worthless with these 3D applications, gotta find someone to make a model for me then 

I've made film effects in the past but this somehow harder to make lol. I can try shapeways if I manage to put a model together. What program do you use btw?


----------



## Wesayso

I used Autodesk Inventor. But I can't say it is easy:








This should give you an impression of the steps needed for
this seemingly simple design .


----------



## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> I used Autodesk Inventor. But I can't say it is easy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This should give you an impression of the steps needed for
> this seemingly simple design .


Wow... That... does not look easy. Indeed^^ xD


----------



## Hanatsu

Well, began making the tweeter pods yesterday. Basically I made them by combining a MDF baffle with a towing hook cover (lol). I'm gonna pull the cable through the pipe and fasten it behind the A-pillar. I'm modifying the flange a bit too, more about that later. Well, here's my progress;



Not pushed the flange down in the pic ^^











Btw the bike's done too


----------



## quietfly

sub'd 

nice work!


----------



## Hanatsu

I'm almost done with the tweeter pods. Need to give them another layer of paint, I'll take some photos tomorrow.

Made a diagram over the power connections. Just how it's connected with eachother, ground points, fuses, cable size etc etc. In Sweden we use (mm²) more often than AWG/gauge when measuring cable size, 21mm² ~ 4AWG // 50mm² ~0AWG.


----------



## bbfoto

Nice work on those pods. That Ninja is killer as well! Super clean, mean, & green. But I'm weird...I like the Blue Pegboard in your shop the most, LOL!


----------



## req

yeah, very cool stuff!!

the one thing i would do is take those grills off the midrange and give them a big fat round on the inner edge. 

looks great though!


----------



## Hanatsu

req said:


> yeah, very cool stuff!!
> 
> the one thing i would do is take those grills off the midrange and give them a big fat round on the inner edge.
> 
> looks great though!


Thanks 

Thought about it actually... I'll take a look at them after the upcoming competition. No time atm =/


----------



## Golden Ear

Love the blue pegboard! Nice work so far! I'm curious about the cap for the ground for the pdx amps. I'm thinking about getting a pdx f6 to match my m6. Is that cap something I should consider if I go with the f6?


----------



## Hanatsu

Golden Ear said:


> Love the blue pegboard! Nice work so far! I'm curious about the cap for the ground for the pdx amps. I'm thinking about getting a pdx f6 to match my m6. Is that cap something I should consider if I go with the f6?


Yeah... probably. They do "bleed" lots of noise back into the electrical system. Might not affect anything but I don't like it anyway. In fact, all class D amps I've encountered do that to some extent. You can build your own cap, 30000-40000uF seems to be enough.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## Hanatsu

bbfoto said:


> Nice work on those pods. That Ninja is killer as well! Super clean, mean, & green. But I'm weird...I like the Blue Pegboard in your shop the most, LOL!


Ain't blue pegboards common in the US? xD

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## cerwinvega_fan

Must be nice having money to afford that gear....


----------



## Golden Ear

Hanatsu said:


> Yeah... probably. They do "bleed" lots of noise back into the electrical system. Might not affect anything but I don't like it anyway. In fact, all class D amps I've encountered do that to some extent. You can build your own cap, 30000-40000uF seems to be enough.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


Thanks for the info. Is there a thread on here or a website that shows how to make them?


----------



## Hanatsu

Golden Ear said:


> Thanks for the info. Is there a thread on here or a website that shows how to make them?


I can see if I can find my old cap, but it's nothing complicated really. Just lots of "smaller" caps in parallel. Make sure they are rated for 25V at least.


----------



## Hanatsu

Small update. One tweeter installed, kinda screwed up and dropped the other one in the floor from 4-5 feet up. Have to make some cosmetic repairs now =/

Here's how they look in any case. 







How it looks from the drivers seat atm;




The little metal thing protecting the tweeter somewhat are made of one of these;


----------



## Hanatsu

Btw, the Vifa XT25 are great drivers indeed. About the best you can get for such a ridiculously low price. Practically no audible distortion at all, measured at ~85dB and the THD was below 0,2% through 3kHz-10kHz. Still, little lack of the highs, unless they are 100% onaxis they drop beyond 14kHz. Not very bothered by it though. Very smooth sounding driver with a "warm" character to them, very likable. Be careful about being anywhere even close to the resonance (Fs) at 850Hz. Even with a 24dB/oct @ 4400Hz I saw a 7-8dB rise at 850Hz (lol...).

Have them crossed at (Left) 4400Hz/24dB - (Right) 3900Hz/18dB atm.

The Founteks are crossed (Left-HP) 280Hz/30dB - (Right-HP) 1190Hz/6dB. (Real crossover point is 180-185Hz both sides)
(Left-LP) 2650Hz/18dB - (Right-HP) 3550Hz/12dB.

Mids (Both) BP 45-150Hz/24dB.

Sub (LP 55Hz/18dB)


----------



## Golden Ear

Hanatsu said:


> I can see if I can find my old cap, but it's nothing complicated really. Just lots of "smaller" caps in parallel. Make sure they are rated for 25V at least.


If you could find it and post a pic that would be very much appreciated. I'm a rookie so I have no idea what you're talking about yet


----------



## quality_sound

You made that out of a cotter pin? That's pretty impressive.


----------



## Hanatsu

Golden Ear said:


> If you could find it and post a pic that would be very much appreciated. I'm a rookie so I have no idea what you're talking about yet


Sorry its been a while. I'll post one later.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## Hanatsu

Little update,

Been tuning for 2 days now. Very pleased with the midrange and tweeters. Staging is as focused as it can get with this install. Tonality is natural and smooth.

Sub is flat down to 15Hz. Lots of power and it sounds pretty clean. What I'm having issues with is the midbass, can't get it right. It sounds either peaky or powerless and it doesn't stage up front as well. The image keeps dragging to the right even after eq matching and t/a, even lowered level on the right mid by 5dB but it didn't help. The left mid location is bad, I have 4 massive nulls between 50-160Hz, none at the the other side. T/A and EQ just move the nulls around, it doesn't fix the issue. Thinking of using the rear mids as well and see if it helps.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## subwoofery

Hanatsu said:


> Little update,
> 
> Been tuning for 2 days now. Very pleased with the midrange and tweeters. Staging is as focused as it can get with this install. Tonality is natural and smooth.
> 
> Sub is flat down to 15Hz. Lots of power and it sounds pretty clean. What I'm having issues with is the midbass, can't get it right. It sounds either peaky or powerless and it doesn't stage up front as well. The image keeps dragging to the right even after eq matching and t/a, even lowered level on the right mid by 5dB but it didn't help. The left mid location is bad, I have 4 massive nulls between 50-160Hz, none at the the other side. T/A and EQ just move the nulls around, it doesn't fix the issue. Thinking of using the rear mids as well and see if it helps.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


When you measure from the passenger's seat, does the right mid location have the same nulls? 
If not, then maybe it's install related... 
If yes, it's vehicle acoustic

Kelvin


----------



## Hanatsu

They dissappear if I measure the speaker nearfield. I can try the passenger seat later.

The one at 62Hz is an acoustic null, the one at 190-200Hz as well. However the two at 85Hz and 102Hz (very narrow) are weird. I also have an abnormal peak at 123Hz... seriously a 18dB rise!! That's the same for all mids in the car.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## hatemi

That null at 62hz sounds familiar.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Hanatsu

I managed to get "rid of" the null at 200Hz by cross the Founteks lower. About 160Hz is what they can take before distortion starts to rise quickly. The other two are acoustic nulls unfortunately. I put a home speaker down at the floor and measured it, same null at 62Hz. The upfront bass illusion became better with the mids crossed at 160Hz instead. Adjusted the midranges delay so they play slightly before the mids and that seemed to help somewhat, still more to do. Enough for today, I'll post some results tomorrow.


----------



## Hanatsu

Golden Ear said:


> If you could find it and post a pic that would be very much appreciated. I'm a rookie so I have no idea what you're talking about yet




Schematic. Just a bunch of caps in parallel ^^

Keep the distance between cap and alternator/amplifier or whatever you wanna filter as low as possible and as thick cables as possible. An 8awg is enough imo.

10x 25V 4700uF Low ESR Impedance Electrolytic Capacitor | eBay

10 Electrolytic Capacitors 470uf 25V Axial RoHS | eBay

Polyester poly Film capacitors Assortment Kit 26 value 102~474 1nf~470nF 260pcs | eBay

Such caps works fine. The "low ESR" ones is supposed to be better but idk, heard that it doesn't matter much once you put all of those in parallel.


----------



## Wesayso

You have a PM


----------



## Wesayso

Hanatsu said:


> Btw, the Vifa XT25 are great drivers indeed. About the best you can get for such a ridiculously low price. Practically no audible distortion at all, measured at ~85dB and the THD was below 0,2% through 3kHz-10kHz. Still, little lack of the highs, unless they are 100% onaxis they drop beyond 14kHz. Not very bothered by it though. Very smooth sounding driver with a "warm" character to them, very likable. Be careful about being anywhere even close to the resonance (Fs) at 850Hz. Even with a 24dB/oct @ 4400Hz I saw a 7-8dB rise at 850Hz (lol...).
> 
> Have them crossed at (Left) 4400Hz/24dB - (Right) 3900Hz/18dB atm.
> 
> The Founteks are crossed (Left-HP) 280Hz/30dB - (Right-HP) 1190Hz/6dB. (Real crossover point is 180-185Hz both sides)
> (Left-LP) 2650Hz/18dB - (Right-HP) 3550Hz/12dB.
> 
> Mids (Both) BP 45-150Hz/24dB.
> 
> Sub (LP 55Hz/18dB)


I'd be curious to see if that spike is still there with a (protection) ~ 30 uF cap in series and a 7 ohm resistor parallel with the tweeter. Before I had that resister in parallel there was something off. Now I run shallow slopes on the tweeter at 5K / 6dB I think...
Haven't changed it in ages, that's a good sign for me .


----------



## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> I'd be curious to see if that spike is still there with a (protection) ~ 30 uF cap in series and a 7 ohm resistor parallel with the tweeter. Before I had that resister in parallel there was something off. Now I run shallow slopes on the tweeter at 5K / 6dB I think...
> Haven't changed it in ages, that's a good sign for me .


I'm gonna put a protection cap there soon


----------



## Golden Ear

Wow, thank you so much for posting that! I'm getting a pop thru my sub and some engine whine since I installed my pdx-v9 so I'm hoping the caps help.


----------



## edouble101

You mentioned that your midbass drivers are not performing as you hoped. I am sure you tried it but if not try reversing the phase on your midbass drivers.


----------



## Hanatsu

Fixed it somewhat... I think it's because of the annoying mode at ~122Hz. I lowered crossovers to 75Hz lowpass and the peak is gone. Sounds more "upfront" now...still some issues. 

Will install some acoustic treatments later on so hopefully I'll be able to improve stuff in the 120-200Hz area.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## Hanatsu

Here's how the system looks atm.

Averaged response;


----------



## Wesayso

Looks like all your work is paying off... not bad at all, but how does it sound?


----------



## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> Looks like all your work is paying off... not bad at all, but how does it sound?


Hm... pretty good. "Warm" sounding and airy. I'll record a vid tomorrow 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## Hanatsu

3rd competition finished and I got a pretty good idea on what needs fixing...

= Mids

I can't get good midbass with this install. Thought I improved it since last time but the judge thought elsewise. Midrange and tweeters scored good, especially the tweets which he thought was the best part of the system. Well there are 1,5 months to the next competition and I will re-do the door install, no more door IB - too much resonances to fix properly. I will build sealed enclosures instead and replace the drivers. Interested in a pair of ScanSpeak Classic 8545 6,5"...

The sub enclosure will also be replaced, I'll probably build a tapped horn. Heard good things about them. New improved tweeter pods from 'Wesayso' is coming as well. Got the 3D models and they look awesome. 

I gonna make new RCA cables and move the DSP to a better location. Acoustic treatments after all the other things are fixed. 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## Wesayso

Sorry to hear about those mids... Back to the drawing board I guess?
I'd look at Pro midbass although most of those have high Fs. But the effortless performance is attractive. Not that suited to your application I guess. I just saw that Beyma's for example have really low x-max as well but then again 95 dB sensitivity...


----------



## Hanatsu

Measured some more, found lots of issues in the distortion and decay plots of the left midbass which seem to be the absolute main issue. Corrected a dip at 700Hz which seemed to be leakage from a screwhole behind the small pod. Never figured it would do that much difference.



Lots of ringing decayed in time that's louder than the originating sound, indicates that there's resonances, vibrations and/or distortion originating from the left door. The lower frequencies are most likely 'room modes' though.



Sub / Midbass crossover / FR plot (1/12 oct) smoothing.

---------



Sub FR, EQed response. FR near perfect. Deviates 0,5dB +/- from 15-35Hz. (1/48dB oct smoothing!)

----------



Midrange drivers combined, "Excess group delay". Looks pretty good. Almost no issues in the passband of their usage. (Mic exactly in the middle of the driver seat headrest).

------------



Tweeters combined, EGD plot. Minor issues around 4 and 6kHz.


----------



## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> Sorry to hear about those mids... Back to the drawing board I guess?
> I'd look at Pro midbass although most of those have high Fs. But the effortless performance is attractive. Not that suited to your application I guess. I just saw that Beyma's for example have really low x-max as well but then again 95 dB sensitivity...


I'm looking though europe audio... found a few drivers that seem to work in a smallish enclosure. PA drivers could definitely work if the Fs lies around 50Hz, might be hard to find though.

I can probably fit a 7-10 lit enclosure with some work. I have a pair of variovents on the shelf so I could go AP with the vent into the door but idk...

The sensitivity are really nice to those drivers, gotta build a sub enclosure that can meet up with such drivers then... hm. The current box cannot go higher than 65Hz for some reason. It drops like a rock beyond 60-65Hz, like 30-40dB oct. Find it strange, my last enclosure never did that and it was roughly in the same location.

Edit;

These drivers seems to be interesting:

*Silver Flute W17RC38-04 
*Seas P18RNXP (can't find this one in Europe though...)


----------



## Wesayso

Out of those I'd opt for the Silver Flute with it's wool/paper cone.
It is praised in a Home Theatre setup with the Vifa XT25.


----------



## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> Out of those I'd opt for the Silver Flute with it's wool/paper cone.
> It is praised in a Home Theatre setup with the Vifa XT25.


Yes. I'll go with those... they model very well in small enclosures. Especially the 8ohm version. It requires a 4,5 lit AP enclosure or a 6 lit ported box. They are pretty cheap as well 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## Hanatsu

I've been away on work for nearly a week now. Done some small stuff. I made that "fat round" on the midrange 'grills'. Actually made more difference than I thought, a 5-6dB SPL difference between 1,8-2,5kHz. Had to re-tune the midrange once again after I did this. I feel I've lost some width by gained more focus and a fuller stage, might just be in my mind though... I believe the change was worthwhile.

I noticed that my mids and sub was really delayed vs the rest of the system. According to the full system EGD plot, about 30ms at 50Hz compared to 500Hz. I delayed my midranges and tweets by roughly 27ms (maximum amount I could do) and it did improve the "up front bass" illusion quite much. Increased the crossover point between sub/mid from 50Hz to 65Hz and it also improved stuff. Midbass is lots better now, still lots of vibrations. Really need to make those enclosures...

Damped the inside of the pods with the liquid dampener. Fixed a slight resonance in the lower midrange I had. Repainted the MDF rings black and wrapped speaker cloth over them again after the pictures were taken. Looks no different from before.

I've also ordered new tweeter pods. Wesayso made a beautiful 3D model for me based on the pods I made. They are being constructed as I write this and they should be shipped next week.


----------



## Hanatsu

I tried record a video on how the system sounded but camera microphone sucked. Recording with the ECM8000 mic didn't work out as intended either, I'll try with my dedicated videocam microphone instead.


----------



## Hanatsu

Haven't done much in while now but I finally decided on a few changes. First off I'm changing my subwoofer and my mids. I was planning to do a door enclosure design with the Silver Flutes 6,5" but I abandoned that plan recently, I found a better way to install the drivers - the floor. Behind the front fenders there's actually lots of space to make real braced enclosures (in front of the kick panels) and I already have unused drivers in the garage - my Usher 8848-P drivers, great performers that I'll finally be putting to use.

Here's two old pictures of the drivers;





-----------

Bought a new sub, not that old one was bad in any way. My electrical system is kinda strained atm, so I wanted higher efficiency out of sub and I got space to spare. So I started to look around among the professional audio subs and found a perfect candidate with good reviews; Beyma SM115/N. With an efficiency of 98dB/2,83V it's lots higher than my Scan 30W. However Fs is of course higher and it got limited Xmax but the cone area kinda makes up for that (15" vs 12"). It should be able to reproduce and adequate amount of lows tuned around 30Hz in a large vented box. I modeled a enclosure of 130 lit together with the transfer function of the car and it looked promising. The second enclosure impedance peak ends up around 50Hz which means that this configuration is extremely efficient with a required input power of roughly 40W to reach Xmax within its intended range. It should give me roughly the same output as the Scan 12" sub. 

http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/SM-115%20NE.pdf









-----------

New tweeter pods!

Printed 3D models. Big kudos to Wesayso for making the actual 3D model. They turned out be really great, since the pictures were taken I've worked on the finish a bit and clear coated the red part so it looks more glossy. I'll do measurements on the directionality of the tweet while in these pods and compare them to mine and the stock flange. I will to readjust the mounting position in the car as well. 













As soon as I get my vacation I'll continue with this build. I have a few other things I'd like to change. Perhaps less amps, a single Mosconi AS.200-4 together with a u-Dimension DSP-8 which basically is an ARC PS8 clone DSP with a built-in (quite powerful) amplifier. This also gives me enough channels and power with a very simplified setup... Maybe a winter project, we'll see.

-----------------------

As some final words I must say that the tweeters sounds even better now after some usage. By far the best drivers I've ever used for reproducing 4kHz+


----------



## Wesayso

Hanatsu said:


> As some final words I must say that the tweeters sounds even better now after some usage. By far the best drivers I've ever used for reproducing 4kHz+


I can relate to that! By far the best upgrade I ever did. I'm glad the tweeter housings turned out this good looking. I'm pretty sure you will be pleased with them in your install.


----------



## Woosey

Wow! those pods look amazing! sweet...


----------



## damonryoung

Wesayso said:


> Out of those I'd opt for the Silver Flute with it's wool/paper cone.
> It is praised in a Home Theatre setup with the Vifa XT25.


That's the exact setup I have in my transmission line build in my signature.


----------



## req

wow dude real similar to my GTi hahah.

i have xt25's DEEP in the sails in the triangular opening for the wire that goes to the mirror motor, anarchy 6.5's in the stock door location, and 4" faital pro neo midranges in the kicks.

my mids are actually behind the carpet (i peeled the backing off so its just a thin layer in front of the speaker) and it works real well.

the imaging and width is great when i got those xt25 tweeters out super wide.


----------



## Hanatsu

Austin1990 said:


> WOW what a great project.. I like your work because its looking very nice.. specially those side speakers are looking great. Can you please tell me which material you used for them? and also these which you shared in the last posts. Thanks for sharing your project.


Thanks 

They are made from a MDF ring and a fiberglass mold. I wrapped cloth over the back mold and the MDF ring and poured resin over it. That's how I made the pod 

Can see if I got any detailed pictures on my computer... the tweeter pods are printed 3D models (the new ones). 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## Hanatsu

req said:


> wow dude real similar to my GTi hahah.
> 
> i have xt25's DEEP in the sails in the triangular opening for the wire that goes to the mirror motor, anarchy 6.5's in the stock door location, and 4" faital pro neo midranges in the kicks.
> 
> my mids are actually behind the carpet (i peeled the backing off so its just a thin layer in front of the speaker) and it works real well.
> 
> the imaging and width is great when i got those xt25 tweeters out super wide.


Do you have enclosurws for those Anarchys? I had serious troubles with vibrations when I tried them IB xD

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## req

Nope. nice and quiet. I've done lots of deadening in the doors though. I am planning on playing with the speakers a bit maybe, we will see.


----------



## Hanatsu

Re-tuned my midranges a little today, used correlated bandpassed pink noise centered around the standard 1/3 GEQ bands and centered each frequency to the exact acoustic center. Measured the system again afterwards to see how close the sides was. Seems like that the left side really needs to be slightly hotter (above 1,5kHz or so) to it to sound centered... Vocals are extremely focused, it stages roughly in eye height. Both midrange and highs sound great now, just have to address the midbass issue soon. 

I also placed the new sub on pink noise for break-in. I measured the driver with DATS before I started to see how much it changes...



1/6 oct smooth, avg 6/2 points each side, measured around the ears.


----------



## Golden Ear

Those tweeter pods are SICK! Nice job on the design and execution. Can't wait to see what they look like in the car.


----------



## biriritz

Great install and attention to detail!!! 

you truly inspired me to improve my system more... thumbs up!


----------



## Hanatsu

biriritz said:


> Great install and attention to detail!!!
> 
> you truly inspired me to improve my system more... thumbs up!


Dunno if I deserve such credit, but thanks!


----------



## Hanatsu

More updates in a few days, I'll probably have time to install the new tweeter pods. Eh... will begin working on my new sub enclosure, TH or vented - dunno yet. The sub is still on noise. Re-tested T/S parameters after 60 hours break-in today.

((New --> 60hour break-in))

Fs 37Hz ---> 33,5Hz
Qts 0,45 --> 0,4
Vas 290lit --> 350lit

I'll post the DATS measurements when I'm done. I'm fairly certain that all drivers need a 50-120 hours break-in before reaching specced T/S parameters. 5th driver I test for break-in, same pattern; Fs goes down / Vas goes up / Qts goes down.


----------



## shawnk

Excellent work my man!

I just read through from page 1 and I'm very impressed with your dedication. Not only for your hard work on the install, but for understanding and tackling the fundamentals of acoustics and problem solving as well. I wish I was more dedicated to the fundamentals back when I was your age  Great stuff!


----------



## Hanatsu

Did some testing today. Tried out the new tweeter pods. Measurements below;

Measured at 25cm distance. On-axis, 30/45/60 degrees off-axis.







As you can see, the sound power response from the new pods is improved, the off axis response is smoother and more "predictable" compared to the old pods. Since the rolloff is smoother, impulse response looks cleaner. Overall an improvement, I'm trying out angles and placement in the car atm.



Another crappy smartphone pic. Just because I'm lazy... 



Some bonus pics... Mom rushed in and pook a picture of me doing... something. I look weird so why not post it here lol. 



Pic over my computer setup, using dual screen for easy viewing.


----------



## Wesayso

Yes! So I did do them right (lol). I was hoping this would turn out nice. My inspiration came from a tweeter measurement from 2 different scan-speak faceplates making a difference in frequency response. I took that into account when I was designing these (actually my door version of them) and it worked quite well for me. I was hoping it would show in your measurements.
It also shows these neo XT25's are very good value for money I.M.H.O.
In aiming them may I suggest crossing them in front of you so you are slightly off axis
to both of them? No more than about 10-15 degrees. That should give you a nice sweet spot even with head movement.
They look good by the way, what kind of clear did you use?


----------



## Hanatsu

Spies hecker 2k acrylic clear coat. Polished with Autosmart raptor 

Did a quick listen. They sound smooth without any EQ at all atm. I'll mess with it some more tomorrow 

The models are perfect! I'll try out your aiming suggestion.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## WhereAmEye?

As a hopeful electrical engineer to be, I love watching guys like you build crazy pieces out of a few wires and caps. Props to you sir.


----------



## Hanatsu

Sorry guys. The engine broke down today... sending the damn car to the scrapyard. This project is discontinued. 

Maybe I'm gonna start some other project later this year, but for now I'm tired of it =/


----------



## bbfoto

[email protected], that's a bummer. Sorry to hear the bad news.  Car trouble blows...can be really frustrating at times. I've really been enjoying and learning from your experiments and testing! I hope you can find a reliable replacement soon, and one that's car audio friendly.


----------



## Golden Ear

Hanatsu said:


> Sorry guys. The engine broke down today... sending the damn car to the scrapyard. This project is discontinued.
> 
> Maybe I'm gonna start some other project later this year, but for now I'm tired of it =/


No way! Seriously??? What happened to the engine?


----------



## Wesayso

Sorry to hear that. Seems a shame to have to stop now!


----------



## chevbowtie22

Man thats too bad. This was one of the build logs I enjoyed following the most.


----------



## bbfoto

You've put a lot of time into this car...just the sound deadening alone, plus everything else. Not worth an engine rebuild? Have there been too many other problems with the car to make that worthwhile?

I would understand if so. I had an Audi Allroad 2.7T wagon for a while that I loved to drive, but couldn't wait to get rid of, LOL.


----------



## Wesayso

I'd say change the engine and get out the sawzal for an ultimate build! 

Some inspiration :
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/76199-bmw-e34-touring-mosconi-odr-norwegian-sq-car.html


----------



## Hanatsu

Ahh I dunno what to do with it... was pissed off when I made the last post. Dunno what happend- it's oil everywhere. Can't see where it's coming from, the engine won't start either. There is a competition in 2-3 weeks but I'll never be able to fix this by then. Problem is that an engine replacement costs just as much as a new car, even the labour does. Sigh this is so damn annoying =/

My cousin is a VAG mechanic, I'll ask him before I do anything. A replacement engine costs about $4000 and the labour almost as much if I were to repair it here in town.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## Wesayso

So it would be cheaper to go to Germany, buy a similar model, get it over the border and swap engines . No scrapyards as engine supply?

At least you're thinking about salvaging your car/hard work.


----------



## Hanatsu

Sweden is among the most expensive counties in the world to buy stuff in... kinda sucks. =/

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## Wesayso

I realised that after you mentioned the replacement engine price. I figured 600 to 1000 euro. Not going on vacation soon? Reserve some space in the boot (lol). That is if you have another car available. When I bought my second car I bought a cheap replacement engine (more cc's) and for quite a while I drove around with that spare engine in my trunk! Engine swap isn't that hard. But I guess you'd have to source the engine in Germany or The Netherlands to make it worth it. The swap itself can be done in a day, maybe 2 if it's your first. Need some extra hands though and a small engine lift.
We have companies here where you can rent those for not too much money.


----------



## LBaudio

sorry to hear this....that's sucks man
I would try to find replacement engine and a few friends who are willing to help


----------



## Hanatsu

I spoke to my cousin who's a VAG mechanic today. He might have a replacement engine for me. If he can get one for me, then I'll consider repairing the car. I've put lots of hours into this car so I gotta admit that I am a bit reluctant to just send it away.

Know what happened to the engine now at least... the cam belt/timing belt was cut in half. It should have lasted much longer, still had 30000km before next change. I suspect the last owner to have lied about replacing it but I don't know. In any case there's massive valve damage and a crack though the upper engine block. 

I'll probably hear from him tomorrow... fingers crossed. At least I got my vacation next week


----------



## bbfoto

Ouch, losing a timing belt or chain sucks.  Make sure your new engine has a new one with new tensioners as well. And a new water pump, radiator, electric cooling fan(s), and hoses are highly recommended when doing an engine swap!

You'd be surprised how many people ruin their newly rebuilt/replaced engines shortly after the swap from overheating due to the failure of old cooling system parts. At least have the radiator "rod'ed out" (tubes cleaned), and then flow- and pressure-tested.

I hope your cousin comes through for you! That would be awesome.


----------



## quality_sound

VW told B5 owners that the belt was good to 100K miles. They should be done every 60K. There were TONS of breakages over on PassatWorld before we started changing them at 60K. Luckily, it's just a head swap most times and that's a weekend job.


----------



## Hanatsu

Fixed the photobucket issue lol... all pictures were gone for some reason.

Well... good news somewhat. He found a good replacement engine for me and I sort of bought it. Not exactly free but still affordable. He will replace the engine the upcoming week, he lives 120km away so I need to find a trailer to be able to move the car. So I'll continue this project, will be some delays however. (might be ready in two weeks or so, then I can get on with my project. I gonna start working on the subwoofer on my vacation at least)


----------



## Hanatsu

Furthermore... I've sold the Alpine amplifiers in the car to a friend of mine. The DLS amps will be removed as well, I'll put them in my second car (might start a build thread on that one too, it will be a concept build sort of). Will replace the amps by ETON PA amps. I'll most likely buy two of those. They are very powerful amps able to run the 15" sub in bridged mode over 2ch and the midbass drivers over the other two. 

Two reasons for the amp swap, I want more efficiency and a cleaner install. Using two different brand of amps was not my intention from the beginning. At this point I've finally realized what I want and what's required to optimize this build. 

With a 8 ohm load they give me around 85Wrms/ch. With the sub bridged in 8ohm I'll get ~270Wrms to the sub which is plenty. My initial calculations told me I required 50-60Wrms for the sub, pretty efficient huh?











Review in German;

http://www.etongmbh.de/uploads/tx_pbproducts/CH111_Eton_PA800.4_1600.2.pdf


----------



## Hanatsu

This caught my attention lately as well. Bought two of them and I've auditioned them at home for two days now. Very impressed with the tonality and low end of these drivers. They go down to 125Hz with ease which is something I need to fix the annoying room mode (null) of the left door mid at 155-170Hz. 

This is an autumn project though, need to build new pods (most likely the same placement though). I'm thinking of bringing the XT25 pods to my apartment to see how well they mend with the TB1337's tonality wise, before I decide on anything. The Fountek's doesn't like to be run anywhere below 200Hz...










Beautiful drivers too ^^


----------



## Hanatsu

Oh btw, got another alternator with 30A more output with the new engine, always a plus.


----------



## Wesayso

That is good news . Glad you found a way to continue...


----------



## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> That is good news . Glad you found a way to continue...


Yeah... just annoying I don't get to have my car in the garage the first two weeks of my vacation


----------



## bbfoto

It will be nice to have that extra headroom with the bigger alternator.  And it's great news that your cousin found an engine for you and can do the swap...sometimes family does come through!  I'm sure that it's still expensive, but probably not as bad as the stress and expense of finding another decent car and starting from scratch with all of the audio install work!

I wonder who makes the Eton amps? They look nice. I suppose I should read the review PDF you posted. :blush:

Good luck and enjoy your vacation!


----------



## req

wow man, talk about a bummer.

i am glad to hear that things came through though.

i ALMOST had the same exact problem. i bought my GTi 1.8t with ~50k miles on it. at about 75k miles, the water pump impellor (made of plastic) broke\melted\shattered. my coolant temp skyrocketed to redline and my car was out of commission. luckily it didnt sieze the timing belt or i would have been in the same boat as you. it cost $800USD to have it replaced with a metal version and new tensioners\hardware and such.

but i got lucky. i am sorry to hear it got you - but i am glad that you decided not to scrap all the work you have done.

keep your head up sir! we will still be watching your build!


----------



## Hanatsu

Hehe. Thanks guys, sending the car away tomorrow... taken some measurement of the trunk, will work on the new sub enclosure in the meantime 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## quietfly

Hey Hanatsu, 
anyway you'd share the design of those pods?


----------



## goodstuff

Ok went though your buildlog. You've got some mad skills. I Like the use of uv techflex loom, adding additional ground points, I've never seen that in an sq build. Was going to ask how you liked the pdx. I was not happy with mine. Sucks about the engine. Glad you did not give up after all that work. I had those xt25's for a while. I thought they sounded harsh, but that's me. I didn't have the skill to install them properly. Oh and I am impresed with how you made a grill like that from a damn 3 cent cotter pin. Awesome. How much did it cost to have the pods made from the 3d model?
Those look amazing as well.


----------



## Hanatsu

Thanks. The 3D model wasn't that expensive to print, about $65/pc. 

Only used PDX amps for the midbass drivers in a very limited range (50-200Hz). Never actually listened to them fullrange so as ridiculous as it may seem I don't have much of an opinion of them other than that they do their job. They do have a pretty low noise floor and they have a fair amount of power available. I'm kinda replacing them now because I don't want two different brands of amps in my trunk. 

The XT25 is a very warm sounding driver imo, done extensive listening and measurements. The ring radiator designed tweeters benefit greatly from small waveguides. Without clever crossover points or some EQing they are slightly hot in the 6-8kHz area which might be perceived as harsh. They shouldn't be run below 3kHz either, I'd say 4kHz is the sweetspot in my setup. They show signs of peaking around resonance even with low SPL down there, so either a notch filter or steep slopes are preferred. You might get heavy 2nd order distortion that shows up around 1500-1700Hz.


Regarding sharing the 3D design, you should ask Wesayso since he's the owner of the 3D files


----------



## Hanatsu

Been experimenting in my other Passat on the yard... It's way too troublesome to fit mids larger than 5,25" in the kicks, there wasn't as much space as I first anticipated. So I'm going with doors anyway, sealed or AP vented depending how big enclosure I can fit.

After been searching for 3 days straight for a driver that will fit my needs, I've found the "perfect" one. Seas L16RN-SL, used in Linkwitz Pluto 2.1.

A 5,25" driver with a very large cone area, close to what a 6" driver usually has. 12mm p-p Xmax is great as well, Zaph (among others) tested this driver and they all praise this driver for its excellent lows. Since I have trouble with a room mode left side I'm gonna use multiple drivers in each door to "smooth out" the dip. Moving a test driver 6-7" towards the back shifts the modal null about 3Hz, it should be enough to narrow the dip by some amount according to my calculations. Ordered 4pc from a French company today, so we'll see when they arrive. 

Zaph|Audio

Seas L16RN-SL (8Ohm)

Datasheet SEAS



Vacation in 3 days... Hopefully I can get some time in the garage this weekend 

Btw... bought MDF for my sub enclosure, so I'll start asap with building it ^^


----------



## Hanatsu

Got my car back recently. The new engine is great 

Did some measurements and simulations using a sealed enclosure with a known anechoic response. Seems like placing the sub 50cm to the right is yields better results than than having it to the left. I wonder how the difference can be that big in decay plots... (there's some weird crap at 50Hz in all measurements, it's noise from the mic preamp, replacing that preamp soon... tired of it)

Here's box simulations;









Placement measurements;








I wanted to build a tapped horn but the sub's T/S parameters ain't optimal for a TH, the enclosure get way to big and there's no low end output. Simulations from hornresp below;


----------



## Hanatsu

Group delay is surprisingly low for a vented box, should be below audible levels. I doing simulations on the port, I'm probably doing with a large flared slot port. Going for a low distortion design with this driver, gonna tune it at 31Hz to control cone excursion from 40Hz and down.

Anyway, I got myself some MDF so I'll start building tomorrow, I'll take some pics on my progress


----------



## Wesayso

Good to read your car is functional again! Can't wait to see what you have cooking sub wise...


----------



## avanti1960

Hanatsu,

Thanks for posting your build progress- the good (and the bad) that happens along the way. Not too many people can analyze the sound to the level of detail you have shown. Very nice work! 

Midbass issues seem to affect many builds. Have you considered using 8" drivers in the front doors? They seem to add the sonic improvements people look for and could yield the measurement results you are after as well. Even the smaller 8" drivers (e.g. Dynaudio MW 172, Morel MW 266) seem to improve the midbass response orders of magnitude beyond even the best 6.5". Could be a fabrication / fit challenge but it looks like you can handle it! 

I have read where you used the Scanspeak D3004 6020-00 tweeters. Why don't you use them any more? 

Also, about your car's engine failure. Did you check to see if your car insurance comprehensive coverage would pay for it? Here in the US some insurance companies would cover such a repair- your incident is not considered normal "wear and tear". You might be able to claim it even if you already paid for it.


----------



## Hanatsu

avanti1960 said:


> Hanatsu,
> 
> Thanks for posting your build progress- the good (and the bad) that happens along the way. Not too many people can analyze the sound to the level of detail you have shown. Very nice work!
> 
> Midbass issues seem to affect many builds. Have you considered using 8" drivers in the front doors? They seem to add the sonic improvements people look for and could yield the measurement results you are after as well. Even the smaller 8" drivers (e.g. Dynaudio MW 172, Morel MW 266) seem to improve the midbass response orders of magnitude beyond even the best 6.5". Could be a fabrication / fit challenge but it looks like you can handle it!
> 
> I have read where you used the Scanspeak D3004 6020-00 tweeters. Why don't you use them any more?
> 
> Also, about your car's engine failure. Did you check to see if your car insurance comprehensive coverage would pay for it? Here in the US some insurance companies would cover such a repair- your incident is not considered normal "wear and tear". You might be able to claim it even if you already paid for it.


I do use 8" drivers in front doors... or did. Removed them now, will use dual 5,25" drivers instead. Cone area should be about the same as a single 8". I will use a sealed enclosure instead of IB, I believe it will kill the vibration issues.

I used the Scans before when I had a 2-way front. The Scans were great in the 2-3,5kHz area; much better than the XT25 but that area is covered by my midrange drivers now. The XT25's ring radiator design works better than the Scans with the mini waveguide pods I got. The dispersion pattern together with the Vifa's phase plug makes for a unique sound that works very well in my setup. The Vifa got about the same performance if not better in some areas for 1/6th the price (in the range which I use them).

I did have insurance but it didn't cover this unfortunally.

------------ 

I have done some more work. I'll post some updates tomorrow.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## subwoofery

Hanatsu said:


> I do use 8" drivers in front doors... or did. Removed them now, will use dual 5,25" drivers instead. Cone area should be about the same as a single 8". I will use a sealed enclosure instead of IB, I believe it will kill the vibration issues.
> 
> I used the Scans before when I had a 2-way front. The Scans were great in the 2-3,5kHz area; much better than the XT25 but that area is covered by my midrange drivers now. The XT25's ring radiator design works better than the Scans with the mini waveguide pods I got. The dispersion pattern together with the Vifa's phase plug makes for a unique sound that works very well in my setup. The Vifa got about the same performance if not better in some areas for 1/6th the price (in the range which I use them).
> 
> I did have insurance but it didn't cover this unfortunally.
> 
> ------------
> 
> I have done some more work. I'll post some updates tomorrow.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


Just for your info, 4 x 5.25" drivers has the same cone area as a 10.5" driver (5.25 x 2) 
So 2 x 5.25" has about the same cone area as a 7" driver (5.25 x 1.33) 

I was in the same boat as you. I have 4 Focal 13WS that I wanted to use as midbasses (2 on each side) - but when I compared it to a normal 6.5" driver, it wasn't worth the trouble IMO. Especially since I won't use them much below about 70Hz. 
So I'm keeping the 4 mini-subs for another project. 

Kelvin


----------



## Hanatsu

SEAS L16 RN-SL is a "special" 5,25" driver with a Sd of 104cm², 208cm² would "almost" equate to an 8" driver 

This particular driver seems to be a great performer in the lower regions. See Zaph's test of it;

Zaph|Audio



> Zaph; This driver is best used in special bass/midbass applications where it's small size and great bass performance can be put use.


----------



## Hanatsu

Here's a quick model over the my old DLS Iridium 8i (8inch) IB mounted vs 2x Seas L16 in a 12lit sealed enclosure.

8inch in blue and the two 5,25" drivers in red. SPL plot at Xmax (5,5mm vs 6mm)


----------



## Hanatsu

Double post...


----------



## subwoofery

Hanatsu said:


> SEAS L16 RN-SL is a "special" 5,25" driver with a Sd of 104cm², 208cm² would "almost" equate to an 8" driver
> 
> This particular driver seems to be a great performer in the lower regions. See Zaph's test of it;
> 
> Zaph|Audio


Interesting little driver  

High BL, inductance in check, cone a bit heavy but should be put in good use in a sealed enclosure. 

Used to be quite expensive, how much is it now? 

Kelvin


----------



## Hanatsu

Here in Europe, about $100 / driver. Pretty standard price here


----------



## Jonathan

Hanatsu said:


> Got my car back recently. The new engine is great
> 
> Did some measurements and simulations using a sealed enclosure with a known anechoic response. Seems like placing the sub 50cm to the right is yields better results than than having it to the left. I wonder how the difference can be that big in decay plots... (there's some weird crap at 50Hz in all measurements, it's noise from the mic preamp, replacing that preamp soon... tired of it)
> 
> Here's box simulations;
> 
> 
> http://s1204.photobucket.com/user/Hanatsu2/media/spl1w_zps439262cb.png[/IMG


I recognize that cabin gain from my BMW E39 estate. It looks almost identical.

I use two Seas CA18RNX (6" woofers) in each door in ~9-10L sealed enclosures (for two woofers). They produce a lot of midbass. For sound quality I would consider going with only one in each door. Or use bigger enclosures. I think the distortion is a bit high in mine. Maybe your smaller cones and bigger enclosures will do better.


----------



## avanti1960

Hanatsu said:


> I do use 8" drivers in front doors... or did. Removed them now, will use dual 5,25" drivers instead. Cone area should be about the same as a single 8". I will use a sealed enclosure instead of IB, I believe it will kill the vibration issues.
> 
> I used the Scans before when I had a 2-way front. The Scans were great in the 2-3,5kHz area; much better than the XT25 but that area is covered by my midrange drivers now. The XT25's ring radiator design works better than the Scans with the mini waveguide pods I got. The dispersion pattern together with the Vifa's phase plug makes for a unique sound that works very well in my setup. The Vifa got about the same performance if not better in some areas for 1/6th the price (in the range which I use them).
> 
> I did have insurance but it didn't cover this unfortunally.
> 
> ------------
> 
> I have done some more work. I'll post some updates tomorrow.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


thanks for the response. 

don't you also have to consider xmax of the drivers- in other words an 8" driver would (usually) have a higher xmax than the 5.25. 

while on paper (2) 5.25" drivers should deliver decent midbass seemingly equivalent to an 8" driver the reality- that is how it actually sounds- could be different. 

are you interested more in how it sounds or an ultra flat frequency response curve for competition purposes?


----------



## Hanatsu

avanti1960 said:


> thanks for the response.
> 
> don't you also have to consider xmax of the drivers- in other words an 8" driver would (usually) have a higher xmax than the 5.25.
> 
> while on paper (2) 5.25" drivers should deliver decent midbass seemingly equivalent to an 8" driver the reality- that is how it actually sounds- could be different.
> 
> are you interested more in how it sounds or an ultra flat frequency response curve for competition purposes?


The 5,25" from Seas have 12mm Xmax p-p. The DLS iri8i have 11mm Xmax. These 5'25 drivers are a little special though. I compete but I don't tune for flat, I usually turn down the sub and midbass but the rest of the spectrum remains the same (at competition evaluations). I use a downwards tilt from 1-1,5kHz --> 20kHz with about 3-4dB/oct. Got pretty high scores on the last competition so the judge seemed to like it 

I've done lots of gardening, repainted the garage and I'm in the middle of a PADI open diving course so I've been a little busy. Done some work on my enclosure but I forgot to bring the camera, I'll upload them tomorrow xD

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## avanti1960

OK, seems like you have found a nice niche solution, looking forward to seeing the enclosures- no doubt they will sound excellent! I saw some build thread where the guy iso-mounted the enclosure to the door to eliminate energy transfer. 

Thought about front door enclosures for a while but any proper volume would require complete surgery of the bottom half of the door panel as well as additional foot well intrusion. Maybe some day, the sound is probably worth the effort. 
oh, BTW didn't you mention that high end amps are not worth the investment- yet you're running DLS ultimates ? Nice!


----------



## Hanatsu

avanti1960 said:


> oh, BTW didn't you mention that high end amps are not worth the investment- yet you're running DLS ultimates ? Nice!


Never said that high end amps are not worth the investment. In my opinion, the vast majority of issues people have with tonality, focus, "control" or whatever in cars are not related to bad sounding amps (if they have enough power that is...). Tuning (DSP power)/Install and great speakers do the most to the sound. Amps do behave different when being overdriven, seen some nasty clipping as soon as the amp hits the the maximum rail voltage on some amps, producing high amounts of tall order distortion products. Also, some amps doesn't behave very well with reactive loads/steep impedance phase changes etc. The more expensive amps usually have better resale value, better longevity, better QC (less issues), lower noise floor etc. Oh and they usually look better as well ^^. In the long run they ain't necessarily that more expensive than a cheap amp (if they last for 20 years...). In the same period you may have bought and whacked 4-5 cheaper amps, idk. I certainly don't want stuff to break down after a few years in a custom made install, having to change the entire layout if the amp's not available any more or if it's unrepairable (or something). To be honest, the build quality is probably the major reason why I consider buying better equipment. It would be preposterous to say that all amps are mysteriously the same in all aspects, but some people who rant about how much the amp changed the overall tonality, that you don't need EQ with good amps etc are equally preposterous imo. You don't need less EQ or whatever because you have "better" amps, the EQ is needed to compensate for the crappy environment, last time I checked an amp won't 'improve' that lol. 

Finally, don't underestimate the expectancy bias... most people listen to systems with predetermined notions how it will sound based on the equipment. Happens all the time. Haven't you seen that "audiophile banana" thread? Sorry for the long rant xD

- - - 

Btw.. I'm changing amps next month to a pair of ETON PA800. I want a more efficient design where I can run the entire system from 2x 4ch amps. Unfortunately, the DLS A4 amps are not sold anymore. Two of those ETON amps costs just as much as one DLS A4 amp here, so I'll keep the DLS amps for some other project. We'll see ^^


----------



## Hanatsu

Made a new system layout (for the main system). Planning one step ahead. I did say I wasn't changing my install again but... ah whatever. Here's how the system will be for the upcoming year, I will make a custom box with a built-in miniDSP and a mini amp for rear ambiance and the "anti-modal" speakers... probably xD


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## Hanatsu

I ordered new 3" drivers as well. I have run extensive tests on my Fountek drivers and found that they have issues in the 200-250Hz area, as well as the 3,2kHz+ area. I will post a comparison test, as soon as I have the time to test the ETON drivers.

(and yep, forgot to bring the camera today again - I'll update my subwoofer build tomorrow, probably - I should say xD


----------



## Wesayso

Days without pictures.... you're torturing us!

P.S. Are both the new E"ton and the Seas you're using a metal cone design?
I tend to favour old fashioned paper designs myself... but then again, I also
use shallow slopes and need the better behaved breakup nodes...
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/speaker-design2.html


----------



## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> Days without pictures.... you're torturing us!
> 
> P.S. Are both the new E"ton and the Seas you're using a metal cone design?
> I tend to favour old fashioned paper designs myself... but then again, I also
> use shallow slopes and need the better behaved breakup nodes...
> The Art of Speaker Design, Part II


Interesting site. Normally paper cones tend to sound more pleasing in the midrange and highs. The ETON use a composite ceramic cone, just like Accuton. Tends to be slightly different from the "metal sound". Only heard a few ceramic drivers but I liked the way the Accuton drivers sounded. The Seas are metal cones, with a typical breakup node in the upper midrange. Not using them that high.

If I'd use shallow slopes then I'd be careful with metal cones aswell. I've used 24dB/oct L-R acoustical filters so far in my setup 

Little Princess - March 2013 - Loudspeakermagazine 2013 | Loudspeakerbuilding

http://www.etongmbh.de/uploads/tx_pbproducts/3_400_A8_25MG_01.pdf

As seen by the manual, the breakup node ain't that harsh and the offaxis dispersion seems pretty controlled to 10kHz.

Now there a thunderstorm outside, better shut down the computer lol...


----------



## Wesayso

That's a write-up from Lynn Olsen, I've been following his build on diyaudio.com, he's working on some new speakers using vintage Altec woofers and a horn.
He makes some valid observations on loudspeaker development and has been in the business for a while. My neighbour had vintage Altec Lansing speakers and I must say, they are something else. Most noticeably in the midrange.
The tonality and clear midrange was excellent. And the dynamics were awesome. If he played music at night I'd swear there was a live event next door .

Thanks for the clarification on the material choice. Those Eton's are intriguing! Never heard Accuton but they always get rave reviews so these should have potential.
And you have a wide range where you could cross over to the Vifa's. Maybe try shallow slopes between mid and tweet? (lol)


----------



## Hanatsu

Oh the old Altec's are indeed special. We'll see how the Eton's compare against my Fountek's. If the Eton's have better performance above 3,2kHz I might use shallower slopes 

The XT25 can be used slightly lower than I have been using them so I think a 3,2kHz/12dB or a 6,3kHz/6dB will be fine (if I notch them around 900Hz).

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## Wesayso

Hanatsu said:


> Oh the old Altec's are indeed special. We'll see how the Eton's compare against my Fountek's. If the Eton's have better performance above 3,2kHz I might use shallower slopes
> 
> The XT25 can be used slightly lower than I have been using them so I think a 3,2kHz/12dB or a 6,3kHz/6dB will be fine (if I notch them around 900Hz).
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


Do you use a cap as tweeter protection? If you do you can use a 7 ohm resistor parallel to the tweet to combat the fs peak...
That's what I have to make the shallow slopes possible.


----------



## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> Do you use a cap as tweeter protection? If you do you can use a 7 ohm resistor parallel to the tweet to combat the fs peak...
> That's what I have to make the shallow slopes possible.


Yes I do. I'll try that. Thanks 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## Wesayso

Fyi, my protection cap is ~30 mh, one big 22 mh plus an 8 parallel:


----------



## Hanatsu

Here's a little progress in any case. 

Front side:



Dual ports each side, 2*(9,8*5,7+(3,5*5,7)/2)cm = 132~ cm² port area. Should keep port velocity down below 17m/s at 25Hz.







Wood glue between each part.



The hole is 0,5mm within the optimal cutout for the sub.







The sub will be flush mounted in a MDF ring later on.


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## Hanatsu

And yes... the garage is mess atm


----------



## avanti1960

understood about your amplifier preference- more an attempt at humor than anything else. those eton amps look nice. unfortunately not available in US. rock on- looking forward to your dual-5s door enclosures. 

BTW in that "little princess" link it appears from the response curves that the crossovers for woofer, mid and tweeter have frequency gaps that sum together for a flat response- e.g. mid LP at 1800Hz, tweeter HP at ~ 3600Hz. Do you agree with that?


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## Horsyhorse

Interesting Project!

Pierre


----------



## Hanatsu

Been a while since I updated anything now. The project ain't dead, there's just a lot of stuff going on at the moment. I've begun testing the new midrange drivers and tried out mounting angles, the new ETON drivers are great. They go lower and sound incredibly clean down to 150-160Hz - even at loud volume. The top limit is about the same as the Founteks, there's an audible distortion peak above 4kHz which add some sibilance if crossed/played too high. It should be noted however that the issue is worse with the Founteks. Since the Vifa XT25's are happy with a 3-4kHz crossover point this present no problem at all, the ETON's are well within their beaming point there and the frequencies outside the passband are well behaved with no sharp dips or peaks in the offaxis response plots. 

Since I already posted this in another thread ( http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/151601-eton-mids-4.html ) I simply quote myself... 













> Forgot to measure VAS in the screenshot, measured it afterwards.
> 
> VAS = 0,67 lit
> 
> Comments: The drivers are not played for more than 20 minutes or so. The T/S parameters are therefore not accurate as the drivers most likely need a break-in period which will lower Fs, Qts and bring VAS up (at least this has happened with all other drivers I've measured). Well controlled offaxis dispersion, the frequency response is great - good extension beyond 20kHz, using the driver slightly offaxis will still give you some highs up to 12-13kHz. These drivers ain't really marketed as widebanders but the performance is similar to such. Sound power response should be great up to 6-7kHz since the offaxis response has a attenuated but similar shape as the on-axis response.
> 
> Distortion looks good as well, one thing that baffled me was that the 3rd order HD at 160-200Hz actually went down (% of the fundamental) as I went from 89- to 95dB/1m. This is the cleanest 3-4" driver I've tested from 160-300Hz. At 160Hz with 95dB/1m 2nd HD hits 3% and 3rd order HD hits 0,6%. That is very good from such a small driver and means that it actually can be used with a 160Hz 24dB/oct HPF at pretty loud volume. 95dB/1m is equivalent to over 100dB in the my car with both drivers playing. From 600-3800Hz THD stays below 0.3% which means these should be audibly distortion free in that range. There is no tall order HD products to be worried about either 5th-9th order HD don't go beyond 0,01% (at any frequency) above 150Hz at 95dB/1m.
> 
> Small issues in the impedance plot, shows small amount of energy storage around 4,5kHz which can be seen in the distortion plot as well. The 2nd order hits 1% / 1,6% in the 89/95dB plots there which is pretty similar to the Fountek FR88EX's which have the same issue. The distortion is audible at 95dB/1m (this is quite loud though). The distortion present itself in the 8-10kHz area which adds a bit sibilance if you run them past 4kHz.
> 
> I'd say these can be best used 160-4000Hz with a 24dB BP filter. If you're looking for a small driver that can dig low and still sound clean at loud volume then the ETONs won't disappoint. They sound a lot "larger" than they are, I ran them fullrange to my home amplifier and they sounded clean down in the midbass area at moderate volume. They sound great on-axis and there's a great deal of highs but they get directional pretty quick as shown by the FR plot. A big plus for the small mounting depth, the GREAT terminals and the overall build quality. They feel very robust.
> 
> Will place these on break-in for 100 hours at least and then I'll take an evening to properly evaluate them. I'll remeasure T/S then and see if there's any change, I will share the results of course


Here's my old Fountek FR88EX's as comparison:


----------



## Hanatsu

Here's some pictures on the ETON's:















Great little drivers, less mounting depth than the Fountek's but slightly larger flange. Amazing build quality, the terminals are rock solid and the entire design is well engineered.


----------



## bbfoto

Awesome, Hanatsu. Thanks for the measurements, graphs, and pictiures! I've always liked my 1st Gen Diamond Audio 5.25" & 6.5" HEXacone mids by Eton. And these do look a promising alternative to the FR88's which I've been using as well.  Staying tuned for your updated measurements and thoughts...


----------



## Hanatsu

*Well here's some news:

I will finally start working on this project again really soon. I have a few things I will improve and change in the install. *

*I will replace the power cable from 1awg (50mm²) to 3/0awg (95mm²) from the alternator and remove the stock front battery. 

*In the trunk a DIY aluminum welded mounting frame will replace the current MDF fiberboard which is holding amps, the battery and the subwoofer enclosure in place. 

*I've bought a 300x200x40mm (11,8 x 7,9 x 1,6 inch) massive aluminum block. I will make my own distribution block (power/ground) and fuse holder out of it. This will yield a more streamlined and simplistic design with the DIY feel to it. The aluminum block will be mounted to a colored 'plexiglass' that I'll cut to the appropriate size. 

*The subwoofer enclosure will be decoupled from the aluminum frame as far as possible to avoid vibrations to reproduce themselves in the chassis, panels etc. I'm hoping this precaution will decrease subwoofer localization a bit. The Beyma sub is very efficient and good sounding well into the midbass range so I hope I can use a higher crossover point than before.

BVD Feet. These work pretty efficiently at home so I'll with a little modification those should work in the car as well. 

*After some calculations I've decided on 10 liter sealed enclosures for the dual Seas L16 5,25" woofers in doors. I'll order 4pcs next week, when I get them I'll measure them as usual and post results. Going by the manufacturer and Zaph's measured T/S specs, Qtc should end up around 0,8-0,9 - which is great. No reason to AP vent them really, the Qtc should give them a little bump in the FR around 80-90Hz (which is fine).

*I will cut new MDF baffles for the ETON 3-400 drivers, they will be replace the Founteks in the same location (sails). The new enclosures will be better vented than before to simulate "IB" conditions better.

*The new tweeter pods will finally be installed in pillars ( Thanks again for the design, Wesayso  ). Initial listening impressions was positive. Definitely an improvement in both tonality and staging over the old pods.

*The amps will be ordered later this year as I don't have that much money to spend on the fun stuff atm, they ARE slightly expensive imo... $1600-1700 for two ETON PA800.4 amps shipped. This will only give me 8 channels and unfortunately I require 11ch (rear ambiance and the active bass cancellation driver up front). I removed and sold the Audison bit10 DSP and all the amps that were in the car so now I need a new secondary DSP unit for the ambiance processing and also an amp with 3 or 4ch. My idea is to buy a MiniDSP and build a small footprint class D amp (or get one of those Ebay 4ch amplifier circuits) and place them in a custom chassis to add to that DIY/simplistic design... 

*Enclosures for the Dayton RS125/8 in the C-pillars will be made.

*I'll build that small 4th order BP up front enclosure under the dash to be used as an active bass cancellation unit. I am convinced this is worth the trouble, it has benefits that no processing can replicate. Hoping it will effectively reduce modal ringing in the lows so the bass are perceived "dryer". 

*I will also reroute and replace RCA cables which are all too long at the moment. I must be able to present pictures in the install documentation over all wiring done in the entire install - EMMA Master requires this in the install evaluation (never took much pictures of this... sigh).

I'll start with the subwoofer enclosure that I hopefully will finish somewhat in the weekend.


----------



## sqnut

Glad you finally got the Etons running. Just one question, across the mid range 600~2khz the 3rd order is equal to or greater than the second order. How does this translate in terms of the mid range voicing on these? How does it compare against say the 12MU Scans where 3rd order < 2nd order?


----------



## Hanatsu

sqnut said:


> Glad you finally got the Etons running. Just one question, across the mid range 600~2khz the 3rd order is equal to or greater than the second order. How does this translate in terms of the mid range voicing on these? How does it compare against say the 12MU Scans where 3rd order < 2nd order?


Not to diminish the importance of great non-linear performance. But at "normal" listening volume the HD amount in that range is insignificant imho. At ~90dB/1m the 3rd order HD hits about 0,2-0,3% while the 2nd order lies around 0,1% in the same range. I've listened to other drivers where odd order HD has been higher than even order HD over a big range and those drivers sound bright and detailed at first but gets annoying pretty fast to listen at - since they induce listening fatigue. I should be noted that a low HD usually means low IMD as well since these non-linearities are connected to eachother. Audibly it seems like intermodulation (IMD) is worse than harmonic distortion. A possible cause is that IMD "don't belong" at all (they are not harmonics of a tone) and can end up in spots where they are revealed easily depending on source material and listening volume of course.

That said, the 12mu, ETON, Fountek all have different tonality. The 12mu sound really neutral compared to the other two. The ETONs have a slightly too bright character to be called "neutral", they sound "airy" or "light" (dunno how to describe sound in subjective terms very well ^^). Acoustic guitars and female vocals sounds really accurate, I think it's the upper harmonics. It feels subjectively that the transients are reproduced accurately...






0,15-0,35 the acoustic guitar (at least I think it is) are clearly separated from the rest the music, the Founteks doesn't separate the guitar that well, neither can my Scan towers. The Scan's sound very different on the same track, more laid-back and "deeper" stage with less articulation. Not worse, simply different. If I'd take a guess, it might have something to do with diffraction/baffle issues or maybe the difference can be revealed with by a CSD plot since FR is pretty similar in the midrange/upper midrange (at least if I compare my driver measurements...). I'm a strong believer that linear performance and dispersion pattern "power response" contribute more to the overall character of a driver than the non-linear part does (at least at low/moderate volume). Feels like I answered your question with more questions ^.^


----------



## Hanatsu

Small update:

Began making MDF rings for the ETON drivers today. Rounded the edges to minimize diffraction somewhat. (They will be rounded inside as well later)



Flush mounted. 



Here's the aluminum block:





Tried an IMD measurement just for fun. Never bothered much measuring IMD before, it's harder to do than a simple harmonic measurement but it reveal lots of useful data. IMD = Intermodulation distortion btw. It's a type of non-linearity like harmonic distortion. It creates "new sounds" not present in the original signal. Here's a experiment using 2 tone IMD testing with 300Hz and 4000Hz as center frequencies. I think input were around 3V or so... (I've not figured out how to measure it correctly yet. There's some ratio between the frequencies that needs to be considered as far I understand...)

2nd order IMD is f2 +/- f1 (f1 and f2 is arbitrary frequencies)
3rd order IMD is 2*f2 +/- f1 or f2 +/- 2*f1

If you look at the formula above you'll see that IMD occurs at the difference between 2 tones (in this case). I.e 300Hz/4000Hz, there will be IMD at 4000+300=4300Hz and 4000-300Hz = 3700Hz. There will also be IMD (3rd order) at 4000*2+300=8300Hz and 4000*2-300=7700Hz, also at 300*2+4000=4600Hz and 4000-300*2=3400Hz (as seen in the screenshot below).

There was some noise outside so there's some crap that shouldn't be in the measurement present, take it with a grain of salt. I will make real measurements when I figure out how it do it correctly later. IMD measurements are very useful in determining performance since it's generally more audible than harmonics.


----------



## Wesayso

That looks like a big chunk of aluminium! Can't wait to see what you make of it.
Nice work on the baffles! I like it that you rounded the edges. 
Looks to me that the IMD test is not bad at all! More than 40 db down...
Can't wait to see it all come together. So glad you decided not to scrap the car!


----------



## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> That looks like a big chunk of aluminium! Can't wait to see what you make of it.
> Nice work on the baffles! I like it that you rounded the edges.
> Looks to me that the IMD test is not bad at all! More than 40 db down...
> Can't wait to see it all come together. So glad you decided not to scrap the car!


Good to hear from you again! 

Rounded edges is really important, I've come to understand that recently. Both listening impressions and measurements confirm improvements.

I'm reading through a few papers on subjective listening impressions vs measurements. Geddes and D'appolito have some interesting reads...

Testing loudspeakers, Part 1

Testing loudspeakers, Part 2

Gedlee, distortion analysis etc etc


----------



## Hanatsu

Did some more work on the sub. 















































Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Hanatsu

I will wrap the enclosure with black vinyl and the sub/ports will be covered by red low density speaker cloth.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## Golden Ear

That's looking cool, H! Keep up the nice work and keep us posted.


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## Hanatsu

I did some additional measurements on my tweeters (with the small waveguides). All measurements are done psuedo-anechoic (gated), i.e no reflections in any measurements. Each impedance peak have been averaged 5 times for better accuracy. Forgot to generate a mean sound power response curve, but as you can see from the FR-plot below, each curve almost track perfectly vs angle until 10kHz. The discrepancies above 10kHz are likely due to radiation from the phase plug. Above 5kHz the driver act more and more directional, which is great, SPL is down a fair bit once the dispersed sound reaches the dash/windshield. The polar response and the sonogram below displays the same data as the FR-plot. Just differently...

*Vifa XT25-SC90*

*Frequency Response 0-15-30-45-60-90 degrees (Smoothed 1/48oct)*



*Sonogram (FR-Dispersion)*


*
Polar Response (FR-Dispersion)*




*CSD*

_Looks pretty good to me. Ringing below 3kHz but looks pretty clean above 4-5kHz._



*
Stepped Sine Tones 1/48oct - Harmonic Distortion 

%HD vs Amplitude (92dB/1m equivalent), taken "semi-nearfield"*

_There was a 15uF cap in series with driver during the measurement. I was afraid the driver would be damaged by feeding it fullrange close to Fs. Without it, distortion would be approximately 2-3% higher overall below 2kHz. Above 3.5kHz the data is equivalent to 92dB/1m.

The driver have high amounts of 2nd order HD in relation to 3rd order HD, which is good. Basically no tall order HD to be worried about, even H3 is below 0,05% from 4kHz and up. The distortion levels above 4kHz at this output is among the better drivers I've tested and rivals my Scan 6600 in this range. Below 2kHz the HD gets very audible, DON'T use this tweeter that low._



*IMD (Intermodulation Distortion) - Two Tone, 90dB/1m equivalent*

_Here's one IM test playing sine tones at 1kHz and 4,5kHz. IMD is harder to measure but it's basically strongly connected to harmonic distortion. Wherever 2nd HD is high, 2nd IMD is high - if 3rd HD is high, 3rd IMD is high etc etc... Both are non-linearities but the general consensus is that IMD is more audible than HD (even if there's studies pointing out that non-linear distortion ain't very audible at all...). Logically IMD should be worse than HD since the distortion ain't related to any harmonics and taller IMD products are more widely spread. _



_As you can see, the tone at 1kHz creating massive amounts of 2nd order IMD that's even higher than the 2nd harmonic! Check 4,5kHz and 5,5kHz which is the 2nd order IMD. If we do the calculation we see that;

IMD 2nd order = 3,54%
IMD 3rd order = 0,22%

This correlates with the 2nd order --> 3rd order HD ratio somewhat_

---- ---- ---- ---- ----

_4kHz + 9kHz (1:1 ratio)_



_Looks much better here. IM is basically neglectable here. IM2 is at 0,22% and IM3 are below that..._


I posted a few thoughts about audibility of non-linearities but the thread didn't caught much interest; http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/155548-correlating-measurements-good-sounding-speakers.html


----------



## Hanatsu

Again, I can recommend this driver to anyone with a 3-way front. It got "high-end" performance above 4kHz. The price vs performance is ridiculous


----------



## Wesayso

Hanatsu said:


> I did some additional measurements on my tweeters (with the small waveguides). All measurements are done psuedo-anechoic (gated), i.e no reflections in any measurements. Each impedance peak have been averaged 5 times for better accuracy. Forgot to generate a mean sound power response curve, but as you can see from the FR-plot below, each curve almost track perfectly vs angle until 10kHz. The discrepancies above 10kHz are likely due to radiation from the phase plug. Above 5kHz the driver act more and more directional, which is great, SPL is down a fair bit once the dispersed sound reaches the dash/windshield. The polar response and the sonogram below displays the same data as the FR-plot. Just differently...
> 
> *Vifa XT25-SC90*
> 
> *Frequency Response 0-15-30-45-60-90 degrees (Smoothed 1/48oct)*
> 
> 
> 
> *Sonogram (FR-Dispersion)*
> 
> 
> *
> Polar Response (FR-Dispersion)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *CSD*
> 
> _Looks pretty good to me. Ringing below 3kHz but looks pretty clean above 4-5kHz._
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Stepped Sine Tones 1/48oct - Harmonic Distortion
> 
> %HD vs Amplitude (92dB/1m equivalent), taken "semi-nearfield"*
> 
> _There was a 15uF cap in series with driver during the measurement. I was afraid the driver would be damaged by feeding it fullrange close to Fs. Without it, distortion would be approximately 2-3% higher overall below 2kHz. Above 3.5kHz the data is equivalent to 92dB/1m.
> 
> The driver have high amounts of 2nd order HD in relation to 3rd order HD, which is good. Basically no tall order HD to be worried about, even H3 is below 0,05% from 4kHz and up. The distortion levels above 4kHz at this output is among the better drivers I've tested and rivals my Scan 6600 in this range. Below 2kHz the HD gets very audible, DON'T use this tweeter that low._
> 
> 
> 
> *IMD (Intermodulation Distortion) - Two Tone, 90dB/1m equivalent*
> 
> _Here's one IM test playing sine tones at 1kHz and 4,5kHz. IMD is harder to measure but it's basically strongly connected to harmonic distortion. Wherever 2nd HD is high, 2nd IMD is high - if 3rd HD is high, 3rd IMD is high etc etc... Both are non-linearities but the general consensus is that IMD is more audible than HD (even if there's studies pointing out that non-linear distortion ain't very audible at all...). Logically IMD should be worse than HD since the distortion ain't related to any harmonics and taller IMD products are more widely spread. _
> 
> 
> 
> _As you can see, the tone at 1kHz creating massive amounts of 2nd order IMD that's even higher than the 2nd harmonic! Check 4,5kHz and 5,5kHz which is the 2nd order IMD. If we do the calculation we see that;
> 
> IMD 2nd order = 3,54%
> IMD 3rd order = 0,22%
> 
> This correlates with the 2nd order --> 3rd order HD ratio somewhat_
> 
> ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
> 
> _4kHz + 9kHz (1:1 ratio)_
> 
> 
> 
> _Looks much better here. IM is basically neglectable here. IM2 is at 0,22% and IM3 are below that..._
> 
> 
> I posted a few thoughts about audibility of non-linearities but the thread didn't caught much interest; http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/155548-correlating-measurements-good-sounding-speakers.html


I expected the output above 10K to be more flat extending to 20K like most XT tweeters. (it's 7 db down at 20k compared to 10K)
I saw that in your previous measurements as well, both with the old and new wave guide.








Any reason you can think of? Or is it the lack of a baffle that is causing this?


----------



## Hanatsu

Both soundcard (running in ASIO 96kHz mode) and microphone use calibration files. My drivers might be weird 

Other tweeters I've measured doesn't rolloff in the same way above 10kHz. It might be that the waveguide are amplifying the midband and the highs due to narrow dispersion doesn't benefit from the "boost".

Here's another measurement on the same driver using similar methods to mine (well except he's measuring on a flat battle as well:










If there's something going on with my measurement setup I better look into it though.


----------



## Hanatsu

Here's a FR graph over my mic pre-amp/soundcard (very unlikely it's that one):


----------



## Wesayso

Yes, I noticed both the Eton and the Fountek reached 20K easy so I knew it wasn't the mic/soundcard. Just wondering why this tweeter doesn't .

Edit: if I compare it with: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/241286-my-first-wave-guide-speaker-lots-pics.html the waveguide could play a function, but still it should extend in a straight line after that? I guess it's the wave guide without a baffle (coupled to sort of a reverse horn, the sphere). Not that I mind this behavior in a car though. I think the more even off-axis response is more important to me, listening slightly off axis.


----------



## Wesayso

The old pod didn't do much better:









And that was based on the original XT waveguide. No baffle though...


----------



## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> Yes, I noticed both the Eton and the Fountek reached 20K easy so I knew it wasn't the mic/soundcard. Just wondering why this tweeter doesn't .


Yeah, I agree. Kinda weird... It is able to do just about 40kHz before dropping like a rock. My theory is that it is the 3-10kHz area which is "boosted". I'll just bring down the entire 3-10kHz with a wide PEQ band if needed later 

One thing i did notice with your pods (dunno if I've mentioned it before) is that there's much less comb now. Before the unsmoothed FR in the car was like 10dB+/-, now it's down to half or so in the same range. Just done some listening with a home amplifier without processing but I can tell it's a major improvement. I will take precautions when building the pods for the ETONs, no sharp edges anywhere... I have a few interesting ideas how to do it.

Need to think a while longer though...


----------



## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> The old pod didn't do much better:
> 
> And that was based on the original XT waveguide. No baffle though...


True =/


----------



## Wesayso

Hanatsu said:


> One thing i did notice with your pods (dunno if I've mentioned it before) is that there's much less comb now. Before the unsmoothed FR in the car was like 10dB+/-, now it's down to half or so in the same range. Just done some listening with a home amplifier without processing but I can tell it's a major improvement. I will take precautions when building the pods for the ETONs, no sharp edges anywhere... I have a few interesting ideas how to do it.
> 
> Need to think a while longer though...


That is good news! I noticed a smoother sound when I installed my pods. With only graphical EQ I needed all the help I could get. Very satisfied though with the sound I have. Too bad I need to disconnect by battery for a long time to uninstall my failing GT alarm unit tomorrow. Hope I don't loose all my settings! . I used EQ over the auto EQ from the Pioneer, but you can't see what that pio curve is! So if I loose that I'll have to start all over!


----------



## Wesayso

Looking at the curve once more you could almost use a first order cap at 20 KHz and make it flat on axis right down to 5K .


----------



## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> Very satisfied though with the sound I have. Too bad I need to disconnect by battery for a long time to uninstall my failing GT alarm unit tomorrow. Hope I don't loose all my settings! . I used EQ over the auto EQ from the Pioneer, but you can't see what that pio curve is! So if I loose that I'll have to start all over!


That sucks... on the P99 the EQ settings remain. Dunno about the p80 though.


----------



## Wesayso

Hanatsu said:


> That sucks... on the P99 the EQ settings remain. Dunno about the p80 though.


They should (P88 RSII) with a new unit with a good internal battery . But it's not getting any younger so I'm kinda afraid to loose the settings.

Edit: Good news (for me)... dysfunctional alarm unit is out of the car and the settings remained!


----------



## subwoofery

Sweet measurements, thanks for that. 
True that distortion looks good from 4kHz and up - as you stated, a sweet driver in a 3-way front system (looking at the sonogram confirms that too). 

Kelvin


----------



## Hanatsu

Since I started to use the more powerful measurement program ARTA for loudspeaker measurements I ran the ETON 3-400 through the same measurements as the Vifa tweeters to find the optimal range of usage. Measuring is knowing and now I'm pretty certain of the limits of these drivers.

*Frequency Response, 0-15-30-45-60-75-90deg (Baffle effect showing up below 2kHz).*

Notice the frequency dip in the 60-90deg plots at 4,5kHz, this is due to beaming (speed of sound in inch/speaker diameter), 13503/3=4501Hz). A break-up node can be seen at 5500Hz. There's also several break-up nodes ranging from 9,5kHz and up. The sound power is evenly distributed in the 45deg axis all the way up up 7,8kHz. 



Polar response and sonogram again display the same thing as the above FR plot. I actually prefer the sonogram for viewing directionality. It's easy to see that the best sound power response is attained below ~4kHz. 





*CSD & Burst Decay*
_
Had to gate out reflections so the there's limited data below 1kHz due to the small FFT window. CSD and Burst Decay displays similar data differently. _

CSD Waterfalls display Frequency (Hz) - Decay Level (dB) - Decay Time (ms). 

Displaying decay in milliseconds isn't really fair though. The high frequencies will come to a stop faster than the lower frequencies and the CSD therefore favors the higher frequencies. In other words, a CSD looks better at higher frequencies than at lower frequencies. 

The Burst Decay however displays; Frequency (Hz) - Decay Level (dB) - Decay Time (periods). 

As time decay is display in periods it's easier to compare energy storage in low frequencies vs higher frequencies. Still, I don't have an anechoic chamber and any un-gated measurement I do is bound to have reflections in the data. If I gate the measurement I effectively shorten the FFT length and lose low frequency data... A neat effect in the burst decay plot is that all reflections get shifted into higher frequencies, so if you know what to look for it's not that hard to see what's reflections and what's energy storage. Why this occurs is explained in the ARTA manual (page 103) if you are interested. ( ARTA Manual ) 





Imo, the burst decay was much easier to observe with the sonogram mode. Between 650-950Hz, 1300-1400Hz, 4000-5000Hz there's some lesser spikes with a "reflection tail" close to them. Between 9-20kHz there are some issues, visible in both plots. That's due to cone break-up. Still learning how to interpret some of the data in ARTA but I think I got it right for now.

*Harmonic Distortion - Stepped Sine 1/48oct mode (90dB/1m equivalent)*

Baffle step is compensated for.





I believe the stepped sine method is more accurate than a fast sweep. The HD test is done on a flat baffle (IB) in semi-nearfield. The % vs Amplitude is a neat feature in STEPS, really easy to view the actual distortion percentage. The FR is "flat" to ~160Hz, FR rolls off below that and therefore the relative HD levels are lowered along with that. Note that the %-scale ain't linear. 

HD2 hits 1% at 200Hz and 1,5% at 160Hz.
HD3 hits 0,3% at 200Hz and 0,5% at 160Hz

Really good at 90dB/1m for a 3" driver. I said it before but these drivers can safely be used down to 160Hz. They perform better around/below 200Hz than the Fountek Fr88Ex did.

*Conclusion & Listening impression*

Well, haven't done any blind test or anything but I think I like these more than the Founteks. I mounted them in small pods and listened to them without any filters at all in my home audio setup. I couldn't stand the high frequency rise while I listened to them on-axis, it sounded extremely bright and "eeesssssshhhhhy". After taking the measurements into consideration I then decided on angling them 30degrees in regards to the listening position ( my fluffy sofa  ). The FR-plot basically shows flat response from 160-12kHz in that axis. So I angled them as best as I could and listened again.... and yeah - much better. Without the HF rise the tonality is very neutral, wouldn't call them "warm". They give the impression of detailed, transient sound. The soundstage is very separated (easy to localize instruments, singer etc). There's no tendency of ringing as far as I can hear. In fact these sounds very "transient", like there's no "reverb" added... perhaps I should call them "well damped" or something, idk. I suck at subjective terms. They have zero listening fatigue, their strong side is their neutrality (if you tame the HF peak), the damped sound takes a little getting used to but it's kinda nice once you do.

The objective part;

FR directionality tells us that 3700Hz is the upper limit if we wanna avoid the breakup node at 5500Hz. The stepped sine FR-plot shows 160Hz as the lowest level before rolloff (this might change after break-in, since Fs is higher than it's supposed to atm)

CSD, BD tells us that there's some ringing at 5kHz (indicating a break-up node).

Distortion set the lowest crossover point at 160-200Hz, depending on how loud you wanna go. 3% THD is pretty much inaudible IME.

So the conclusion is that I will use the ETON's from 160-3700Hz with a 24dB/oct L-R bandpass filter. The tweeters will take over from there with a 4th order L-R HP as well. Seems to be the best solution. I've almost completed measuring the optimal placement for the midrange drivers, I first thought it could be done with the LEAP5 software but I found out that it was complicated and annoying so I never bothered. I'm also soon finished with the main part building the sub, hoping to be able to concentrate on the car soon again.

I've ordered 4pcs Seas L16 5,5" drivers, they were not in stock so it will probably take two weeks or so.


----------



## bbfoto

Hanatsu, I just want to say THANK YOU. I've really been enjoying this thread. The time you have taken to post all of your measurements, plots and graphs...along with your thorough explanations/reasoning/background information/links, are extremely helpful, educational, and very well-written. Kudos. I'm probably more excited about the SQ potential of your new system setup than you are, LOL.

I'm really interested to read how you implement the dual SEAS L16 drivers, and also your new sub setup.

Honestly, this type of info is like Gold to a lot of us here on DIYMA. Thanks again, and here's to great progress on your system.

Cheers!


----------



## Hanatsu

Thanks! I noticed an error an I corrected it in the above text.

The dip at 4500Hz is due to beaming, the peak at 5-5,5kHz is the breakup node (can be seen in CSD and HD-plot (HD4 peak) as well). We wanna use a steep crossover filter and perhaps even a notch filter to control the peak during the stopband (rolloff) of the lowpass filter.


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## Wesayso

On the tweeter, did you try putting 7 Ohm resistor parallel to the tweeter in a test?
As long as you have a capacitor in series it should bring down the FS impedance peak, I'm just curious if it clears up some of the distortion on the low side.


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## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> On the tweeter, did you try putting 7 Ohm resistor parallel to the tweeter in a test?
> As long as you have a capacitor in series it should bring down the FS impedance peak, I'm just curious if it clears up some of the distortion on the low side.


I'll try it out later


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## mitchjr

Subscribed


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## Hanatsu

OK. Time to update this thread!

The mids (Seas L16) was damaged during shipment, I will have the replacements on Monday (finally). As soon as they arrive I shall resume working on this project. I want everything ready by April this year so I can compete with a finished car. I will probably enter the EMMA Master class this year since there's more competitors there. 

As for now I've begun working on a "winter car/daily driver" which also will be the new testing ground for different ideas as it's way easier to modify than the Passat. I will post a "spin-off" build-thread shortly.


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## Hanatsu

Spinoff thread; http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/158637-vw-golf-mk3-1995-concept-sq-build.html#post2028909


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## Hanatsu

Drivers and signal cable has arrived! Will measure them asap.







Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Hanatsu

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Hanatsu

Nice drivers, pretty small yet really robust and well designed. The signal cable is an aluminum shielded, low capitance microphone cable from Sommerscable. $1/ft 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Wesayso

Wesayso said:


> On the tweeter, did you try putting 7 Ohm resistor parallel to the tweeter in a test?
> As long as you have a capacitor in series it should bring down the FS impedance peak, I'm just curious if it clears up some of the distortion on the low side.


What was I thinking when I wrote this... it should read ~ 30 ohm there...
Don't know how that 7 ohm figure came to me 
I have 33 ohm myself. 

Can't wait to see the measurements on the new equipment... Big magnets!


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## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> What was I thinking when I wrote this... it should read ~ 30 ohm there...
> Don't know how that 7 ohm figure came to me
> I have 33 ohm myself.
> 
> Can't wait to see the measurements on the new equipment... Big magnets!


Lol... never got around to try it. I have a 33ohm wire resistor so I can see what happens 

Measurements coming up today or tomorrow. I hope the low end is as impressive as the reviews indicate. Both Zaph, Linkwitz and Hobby&Hifi have done measurements.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Hanatsu

Seas L16RN-SL



Amazing consistency. The 4th driver deviates some but it's very minor and might change after break-in. I'll do the big testing tomorrow.


----------



## Golden Ear

I'm sorry if I missed it but where are you planing on installing these L16s? They look nice but I'm wondering how they'd do in a door as a midrange/midbass?


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## Hanatsu

Two in each door. Sealed enclosures at 10-12liters. The cone area for 2 drivers is equivalent to an 8" driver and these got 12mm Xmax p-p. I gonna use them around 60-200Hz or so.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Hanatsu

OK. Testing done. Also posted measurements on Dayton RS125 in the "spinoff thread".

Here's results for the Seas L16RN-SL;

Impedance response, the temperature was higher with time in the garage so the Q is higher than the previous measurement. I'll place all drivers on burn-in and compare the T/S parameters after 24-48-96 hours later. Two irregularities in the impedance curve, check the FR plots directly below and observe how those two points correlate with impedance.



Overview measurement from REW, Nearfield FR and HD at 90dB/1m equivalent. Nice low-end extension for such a small driver.



HD, Stepped Sine. The damn soundcard reset during the test twice, didn't bother doing it again after the second try. Valid data to ~4kHz at least. Notice the superb HD performance in the 70-800Hz area, this is measured at 96-97dB/1m equivalent SPL!! Among the cleanest midbass drivers I've tested, about the same performance as the Exodus Anarchy in the midbass. The are basically no tall order HD products and spectrum noise in incredibly low. 



IMD performance is really really good aswell. 0,5-0.8% at 96dB/1m - this is great performance.







CSD (ms) & Burst Decay (period vs freq). Previously explained some page back ^^

Massive ringing at ~5kHz. A really really big break-up node due to the stiff aluminum cone.





*Summary:*

Non-linear performance is top-notch, doesn't get much better than this. Remember that this basically is a 5,5" driver and it still outperforms several 6,5" and even 8" drivers in the midbass (70-200Hz) area. Good low end extension due to a fairly high Q and kinda low Fs. This driver can be used IB or in small sealed enclosures with respectable output down to 60Hz. With 12mm Xmax p-p and 22mm Xlim these drivers can reach pretty high SPL levels and still hold it together. Typical SEAS build quality, good sturdy terminals. 

Just a heads up, the VC is not protected at all. It needs to be protected somehow if installed IB in a door. I recommend sealed enclosures from 5-7liter/driver so nothing big is required. The impedance phase is smooth and flat, this should keep the amp happy. Sensitivity ain't that high but Fsc (resonance) ends up around 60-80Hz in the enclosure I recommended above, this means the amp doesn't need much power at all to push the driver. Xmax can be reached with a 50Wrms amp and a 63Hz/24dB HPF applied.

Upper usable limit is ~1500Hz. I didn't bother do a polar plot over this driver since it will be omni-directional in the entire usable range. It's limited by the high non-linear distortion above 1500Hz, those peaks shown in the HD plot are related to the breakup. You don't wanna play the driver near those, it will pierce our ears literally.

If you need a wonderful small midbass, you should definitely try this one. If you use two of these drivers and connect them in parallel you'll increase sensitivity and also gain the cone area equivalent to a 8" driver with respectable Xmax. Perfect driver to use in a 3-way system, can even be used in a 2-way together with a widebander crossed around 200-800Hz.


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## Hanatsu

Here's the driver being measured. Crappy pic - I know...

(The tape is there to reduce diffraction to interfere with the measurements)


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## Hanatsu

Hi....

long time since I updated this thread. I'm busy with my other little project at the moment. I will however continue with this build during the summer and therefore I've ordered the last of the required equipment. After thinking for a looong time, I won't be using the ETON PA amps, I'll ordered the ECC version instead. 2x ECC 500.4 (4ch amps, will use them in 3ch mode) and one ECC 600.2 (I'll bridge it for 955W @ 4ohm, the sub is 8 ohm so I roughly get [email protected] - bridged the amp put out about 62 volts across the rails, pretty impressive.) 

I need 2ch more amplification but I manage that with a small DIY amp instead, processed from the now repaired P99. The rest of the equipment remains the same as before.







ECC Serie - Verstärker - Car-HiFi - Produkte - Eton GmbH

http://www.etongmbh.de/uploads/tx_pbproducts/ECC_300.2_500.4_1200.1_CH_02.pdf


I hope you enjoy my other project in the meantime


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## Hanatsu

*UPDATE (Finally...?)*

Build, Generation 4

Yes - this is this the fourth "real" build in this car. This time it will be better than ever. I've considered everything I can think of this time. Summer is over and it's time to get back to work so here's an update;

*New Gear:*

*ETON ECC 1200.1 (Mono)
*ETON ECC 500.4 (4-CH) ~3ch mode
*ETON ECC 500.4 (4-CH) ~3ch mode
*ETON MOVE 15 (Subwoofer)
*ETON 300/4 Midrange
*Seas L16 5,5" (Two each side)
*Vifa XT25SC90
*Pioneer P99RS
*Helix P-DSP

The ETON amps is by far the best price vs performance amps I've had to this date. The 4ch amps costs about $350/pc and the sub amp about $500. The output from the 4ch amps is based around a dual output section which means that there's roughly twice the power on the "rear" outputs. In 3-ch mode, with the rear output bridged, there's about 440W at 4ohms. Excellent to drive the mids. 

New sub, amazing throw, zero motor noise and fairly efficient with parameters that allows for both sealed, vented, BP and more exotic alignments. Really nice build quality, everything is solidly built. It's a DVC 4ohm sub so I'll be running it in parallel which results in a 1ohm load. The 1200.1 delivers a little over 1100W at 1ohm so no power issues really.

Here's a test of the amps (in German): http://www.etongmbh.de/uploads/tx_pbproducts/ECC_300.2_500.4_1200.1_CH_02.pdf

Well, enough of that. I replaced a few cables, I upgraded the main power cable to 95mm² (2/0ga?) and made new RCA cables. I've begun making a fuse/distribution block from solid aluminum and replaced the MDF and crap with a welded steel frame.

_New wiring;_











_New gear;_

















_What I've built so far;_

























That's it for now, I'll continue building regularly now. My other project is on hold for the moment (I need to make repairs and some modifications to the chassis before continuing building, hopefully it will be done till next summer lol^)


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## diy.phil

Wow that's very nice!!


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## optimaprime

Crazy man this awesome as hell


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## Hanatsu

Thanks for the kind replies  ^^

OK. A little update.

I removed the rear battery, I have a huge power cable so voltage losses will be small anyway... 

Distribution/fuse-block done.





Amps mounted.



















Insides of the ECC 1200.1









That's it for today


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## REGULARCAB

That amp rack, fuse block and wiring make me happy in the pants


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## Hanatsu

Spent most of the day cleaning the garage lol.

Instead of running separate remote wires to each amp I simply made a "bridge" between the amps.





A little remote in-remote out relay starter with a diode protection for the headunit;



...and some shrink tube





My new hydraulic crimping tool, does the job pretty well 





Wiring done except RCA's between DSP --> Amps.



Started working on the HU harness...



Require another one of these... seems to be quite hard to find unfortunately.


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## Hanatsu

Little update;

Made the cables from the DSP -> Amps.



Great RCA plugs. "Amphenol". Easy to solder, solid aluminum cover with gold plated copper inside. 



Internal wiring for the subwoofer;



Using 4pin speakon plugs.





"Some" shrinking tube. I ordered 5m, they sent me 50m for some reason lol.



Acoustic cloth



The new tweeter pods. Better pictures later...



Pretty much free this weekend so hopefully I get some work done ^^


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## Hanatsu

Oh... got these as well;



Gonna use them to decouple the sub from chassis somewhat.


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## Wesayso

Cool stuff! What's the acoustic cloth for?


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## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> Cool stuff! What's the acoustic cloth for?


Thanks 

I'm gonna gonna use it for midbass and midrange 'grills'.


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## edouble101

Good job with the metal fabrication


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## Hanatsu

Update -

*Subwoofer installed. It's currently in a sealed enclosure, over 100liter large and Qtc is quite low (about ~0,58). This box weren't made for this particular sub so I might build another box later on, I really prefer vented to sealed. 

*Tweeter-pods in pillars are installed.

*Headunit installed + an improved DC filter added.

*Half-done with the midrange enclosures...

*Wiring is almost complete, I just need to build a fuse holder close to the battery. 

Some pics are a bit blurry, sorry for that^

These effectively dampen small vibrations. My intention is to improve up-front bass. They also keep the sub in place.



The subwoofer enclosure isn't done yet btw, I have some work left to improve the looks. 



The box fits perfectly 



Made sure the back of the enclosure didn't touch the seats.



Speakon connector instead of banana plugs and crap.









The logo glows white when the amps are on.

















I like the design of the sub...



RCA's to amps from DSP;



I tested the system briefly and two things caught my attention. The bass from the subwoofer doesn't sound like it's coming from the rear. Secondly, the midrange clarity. The ETON midranges seperate instruments and sounds very well and the stage sound quite "multilayer". They are pretty neutral sounding, but slightly on the bright side rather than laid-back if you listen to them out of the box. They do have a high-end feel to them and having listened to many many drivers I'd put them together with SS Rev and Dyn 430, performance wise. For a 3,15" driver they sound quite large. 

Well, I'll probably work some more on the midrange enclosures tomorrow and perhaps start with the midbass setup after that. I'll put some extra effort into the midbass install this time.


----------



## Hanatsu

Been a little busy with various stuff again. My midrange pods are almost done in any case. 























Soldered the terminals in place and made external connectors so I can remove the entire pod without removing the speaker. One thing I haven't mentioned before is the type of solder I use. In most audio connections I cater to 4% silver solder. The 96Sn4Ag often makes a worse solder (Tin can be brittle) than 40Pb56Sn4Ag so I prefer using the solder with a little added lead.

I will make speaker covers in red or beige cloth, we'll see what looks best.

Since the pods are basically aperiodic vented, I experimented with different amount of stuffing. 



Stuffed it surprisingly much actually. In the end, I used the lowest peak, Yellow plot. Yielded the best results in both FR and %THD plots. I matched the two pods as much as possible. They were within 3-4% of eachother. The green plot with peaking around 300Hz is the result of too much stuffing, the speaker "sees" a very little enclosure and a second resonance peak is created as Fsc goes up.


----------



## Hanatsu

Using the same tuning as I did with the previous speakers, the Fountek FR88EX and I needed to turn down the relative gain on the midrange channel by ~2dB. It sounds really good, as expected the lower midrange is much better than before. Tried a 160Hz/24dB HPF and they don't even sound strained at considerable volume. They sound much larger than their actual size. The upper end midrange is a bit more edgy than before, probably a tuning issue but the separation of instruments and intelligibility of vocals are top notch. The stage sound deeper and even more focused than before. Width is at sail panel left side and slightly outside sail right side, basically as before. The tweeters had to be raised by 3-4dB from 6kHz and up with the new pods, I suspect less reflections due to the waveguide effect higher up in frequency. Much less ripple in FR as well.


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## Wesayso

Nice work! You're moving fast on this one, dialling it in should be a fun job!


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## bbfoto

Bump for an awesome install! ^Agreed. Amazing work all-around from the trunk to the pods. Interested in your head-unit power filter design/schematic and the remote turn-on "module" with the protection diode. Good chit! Keep it up!


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## satx60

Hanatsu, this is my first post on diymobile, but I been reading your two build threads for months now; great, great stuff! Please keep posting updates!

I don't want to hijack your thread, but I wonder if you'd share your thoughts on the differences between the mids in your two builds, the Eton and Vifa? I've seen your measurements so I'm really looking for subjective here. I'm most interested in which one you think sounds the most natural since it sounds like one's a bit cool and the other dark.

I'm gathering parts for a 4 way dipole for my home, but I can't make up my mind about the mids. these two are at the top my list though.

Thanks and keep up the awesome work


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## AccordUno

Okay, which foam did you use for you mids? How wide and deep does your stage sound with them there? Overall your B5 is looking great..


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## Hanatsu

AccordUno said:


> Okay, which foam did you use for you mids? How wide and deep does your stage sound with them there? Overall your B5 is looking great..


Thanks... I'm using lamb wool in my enclosures.

With the EMMA system I got 13/15 in stage width and 12/15 in depth last time I competed IIRC. Changed speakers and re-tuned the system since then but width is slightly outside the the window right side and at the window left side so pretty decent. Depth is better now than before as well, had a slight "in your face-headphone-type-of-sound" before but depth is decent as well now after I added rears and re-tuned. The rears ain't finished yet, need to build pods in the c-pillars so I've just messed with it with closed back domes laying behind the rear headrests. I'd say a 13/15 now by EMMA standard. Height is slightly too high actually but that a lesser problem. The issue I had with the system before was midbass and that will be resolved this time around.


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## Hanatsu

satx60 said:


> Hanatsu, this is my first post on diymobile, but I been reading your two build threads for months now; great, great stuff! Please keep posting updates!
> 
> I don't want to hijack your thread, but I wonder if you'd share your thoughts on the differences between the mids in your two builds, the Eton and Vifa? I've seen your measurements so I'm really looking for subjective here. I'm most interested in which one you think sounds the most natural since it sounds like one's a bit cool and the other dark.
> 
> I'm gathering parts for a 4 way dipole for my home, but I can't make up my mind about the mids. these two are at the top my list though.
> 
> Thanks and keep up the awesome work


Welcome to the thread/forum then ;P

I actually got three builds now lol. Counting my former builds I've probably made above 10 for my own cars by now. I've tested a whole lot of drivers now, I build home audio speakers and sell them as a side project (very small scale) and what I can tell you is basically that a low distortion (non-linear) transducer will sound dull and laid-back to lot of people not used to it but will sound better and better after longer listening periods, i.e they don't induce the so called 'listening fatigue' so easily. 

When I build a speaker I take the room into account as well, as room absorption/size and the listening position will affect how the speaker is perceived. I rely very much on measurements when designing a system and I do the "final-touch" by ear. Having said that, home audio and car audio is different - you don't want the same target response and the power response is far more important in a car than in a home system. When I evaluate drivers I do it with my home audio system because once you put the driver in a car - the car's transfer function takes over and a majority of the sound you hearing is in fact - the environment. Without any processing applied in a home audio system it's easy to hear differences in speakers, as you hear the speakers "more as they are". You usually listen at lower volumes so non-linear distortion isn't that audible, the main factor here is linear distortion (frequency response, time domain). In a car we listen at higher levels which increases the non-linear distortion and this becomes a more prominent factor in a speaker's character, as the frequency response goes to crap we need large amounts of EQ to tame the response and as a result you don't factor in lots of the speaker's "raw response", except in the range where the speaker starts to "beam", i.e when the power response drops. This is mainly due to speaker size and the crossover points chosen will of course have a direct effect on how the speaker performs. 

OK. After this major rant... The point?

A great speaker in the car have no break-up nodes in the beaming range and low non-linear distortion in the usable range. That makes up a speaker that I would refer to as "neutral" - it doesn't color the sound as much. The main difference between the Vifa and ETON drivers are the size, the Vifa's are 5" drivers and the ETON 3,15" - I have therefore tuned them differently with the Vifas crossed lower, around 2,2kHz and the ETONs at 3,7kHz. This mainly matters if you have a tweeter that can't be used lower in frequency. Both drivers are great performers and if you simply factor in the linear performance I'd say the Vifa got the upper hand. You need an RLC to bring down the break-up node of the ETON (which is a main contributor for its "bright sound"), alternatively using 4th order filters lower down but that defeats the purpose of a smaller driver. Simple answer, I'd go with the Vifa's - easier to get right with passives. 

Both speakers sound great, the ETONs are more cold-neutral than the Vifas that got a little of that "paper" sound which is towards the "neutral-warmer" sounding speakers.


----------



## Hanatsu

bbfoto said:


> Bump for an awesome install! ^Agreed. Amazing work all-around from the trunk to the pods. Interested in your head-unit power filter design/schematic and the remote turn-on "module" with the protection diode. Good chit! Keep it up!


Thanks 

The filters ain't fancy. Using a large inductor in series with the power line and with a DC-DC converter before that, keeping voltage at 13.8V at all times. 

The remote turn-on module is a 12V/3A PCB relay with an input protection diode so no back EMF can hit the HU. I think I used a 1N4007 diode IIRC.


----------



## Hanatsu

Speaking of speakers... I actually had a little issue with one of the ETON drivers. The copper braid coming out from the VC to the terminal had suddenly broken (not at the terminal, more like mid-way in). Had some distortion then the speaker died.



Tried to resolder it (two weeks ago) and it held until now... same issue again (it's actually quite hard to solder it). Called ETON in Germany and they will send me a replacement driver for free, great customer support btw. 

Added metal screws to fasten the pods instead of the crappy plastic clips.



Here's a pic of the front of the car, the pods looks funny


----------



## t3sn4f2

Hanatsu said:


> Speaking of speakers... I actually had a little issue with one of the ETON drivers. The copper braid coming out from the VC to the terminal had suddenly broken (not at the terminal, more like mid-way in). Had some distortion then the speaker died.
> 
> 
> 
> Tried to resolder it (two weeks ago) and it held until now... same issue again (it's actually quite hard to solder it). Called ETON in Germany and they will send me a replacement driver for free, great customer support btw.


Might want to raise the lowpass a little. Does the cone move much under heavy use?


----------



## satx60

Hanatsu said:


> Welcome to the thread/forum then ;P
> 
> I actually got three builds now lol. Counting my former builds I've probably made above 10 for my own cars by now. I've tested a whole lot of drivers now, I build home audio speakers and sell them as a side project (very small scale) and what I can tell you is basically that a low distortion (non-linear) transducer will sound dull and laid-back to lot of people not used to it but will sound better and better after longer listening periods, i.e they don't induce the so called 'listening fatigue' so easily.
> 
> When I build a speaker I take the room into account as well, as room absorption/size and the listening position will affect how the speaker is perceived. I rely very much on measurements when designing a system and I do the "final-touch" by ear. Having said that, home audio and car audio is different - you don't want the same target response and the power response is far more important in a car than in a home system. When I evaluate drivers I do it with my home audio system because once you put the driver in a car - the car's transfer function takes over and a majority of the sound you hearing is in fact - the environment. Without any processing applied in a home audio system it's easy to hear differences in speakers, as you hear the speakers "more as they are". You usually listen at lower volumes so non-linear distortion isn't that audible, the main factor here is linear distortion (frequency response, time domain). In a car we listen at higher levels which increases the non-linear distortion and this becomes a more prominent factor in a speaker's character, as the frequency response goes to crap we need large amounts of EQ to tame the response and as a result you don't factor in lots of the speaker's "raw response", except in the range where the speaker starts to "beam", i.e when the power response drops. This is mainly due to speaker size and the crossover points chosen will of course have a direct effect on how the speaker performs.
> 
> OK. After this major rant... The point?
> 
> A great speaker in the car have no break-up nodes in the beaming range and low non-linear distortion in the usable range. That makes up a speaker that I would refer to as "neutral" - it doesn't color the sound as much. The main difference between the Vifa and ETON drivers are the size, the Vifa's are 5" drivers and the ETON 3,15" - I have therefore tuned them differently with the Vifas crossed lower, around 2,2kHz and the ETONs at 3,7kHz. This mainly matters if you have a tweeter that can't be used lower in frequency. Both drivers are great performers and if you simply factor in the linear performance I'd say the Vifa got the upper hand. You need an RLC to bring down the break-up node of the ETON (which is a main contributor for its "bright sound"), alternatively using 4th order filters lower down but that defeats the purpose of a smaller driver. Simple answer, I'd go with the Vifa's - easier to get right with passives.
> 
> Both speakers sound great, the ETONs are more cold-neutral than the Vifas that got a little of that "paper" sound which is towards the "neutral-warmer" sounding speakers.


Excellent response! Thanks for taking the time. I forgot to mention that I'm looking at the Vifa NE123W, not the 5.25 so more of an apples to apples. I just figured they were similar throughout the line. 

I've designed a number of speakers both passive and active using everything from paper to poly, aluminum, glass and the last couple with nomex drivers. I've never used magnesium or ceramic though and your comments about cool tone got me wondering if they were somehow unnatural sounding. 

These will be a passive/active blend, btw and I've done a rough sim with the Eton's and 4th LP can be hit with only a coil and LCR. I took your measurements to heart and targeted 3600Hz. I always use measurements to design though so this could very well change when measured on my baffles. 

Anyways thanks again for your time and sorry to have rambled on in your thread. Good luck with you builds!


----------



## satx60

My opinion. I think the pods look sweet from the front; just a little flash of red that matches the car.


----------



## Hanatsu

t3sn4f2 said:


> Might want to raise the lowpass a little. Does the cone move much under heavy use?


I have them at 250Hz/24dB. At moderate volume perhaps 2mm+/-.

I did run them lower for a while but excursion wasn't that excessive, I think ^.^

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


----------



## t3sn4f2

Hanatsu said:


> I have them at 250Hz/24dB. At moderate volume perhaps 2mm+/-.
> 
> I did run them lower for a while but excursion wasn't that excessive, I think ^.^
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


Yeah, I brought it up because I remember you mentioning a lower crossover point on your initial review of them. 250Hz sounds _a lot_ less risky. You should know for sure if the other one gives out eventually and the new one holds.


----------



## satx60

Hanatsu said:


> I have them at 250Hz/24dB. At moderate volume perhaps 2mm+/-.
> 
> I did run them lower for a while but excursion wasn't that excessive, I think ^.^
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


I'm sure you know this, but you can simulate the excursion for your power, enclosure and xo. I use Unibox most but I don't know if you can add the filter in. Winisd works pretty well though and can do everything you need.


----------



## Hanatsu

Yeah 

I use LMS/LEAP myself.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


----------



## satx60

Yeah, I figured. I didn't think you would leave anything to chance as thorough as you builds are.


----------



## AccordUno

Hanatsu said:


> Thanks... I'm using lamb wool in my enclosures.
> .


Sorry my bad, I meant to build them. I've been pondering the midrange (beyma dome) there do to the nature of the dash in the b5/5.5 passats. Only other ways was to go to a smaller midrange to build into the pillars and I'm not wanting to do that as of yet..

I guess I'm going to have to play with that location. Lots of ideas for my wagon from you car..


----------



## Hanatsu

AccordUno said:


> Sorry my bad, I meant to build them. I've been pondering the midrange (beyma dome) there do to the nature of the dash in the b5/5.5 passats. Only other ways was to go to a smaller midrange to build into the pillars and I'm not wanting to do that as of yet..
> 
> I guess I'm going to have to play with that location. Lots of ideas for my wagon from you car..


Ordinary expanding foam. Then glass fiber on top of that. On-axis in sails are generally the best location for midranges imo. Center focus is incredible with pods in sails in most cars I've done such installs.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


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## AccordUno

Thanks, that might accelerate my front stage build now..


----------



## Hanatsu

I usually put some BB ammo inside the pod to increase mass a bit (in the polystyrene resin). Feels more sturdy afterwards.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Orion525iT

Hanatsu said:


> Oh... got these as well;
> 
> 
> 
> Gonna use them to decouple the sub from chassis somewhat.


Hey, did you ever get around to using these? I would be curious as to the difference between the isolated mounts vs solid (just a bolt) mount. I have been a big proponent of mechanical isolation where ever possible, but most people will tell you the exact opposite; bolt them down to the chassis as firmly as possible. I was planning to use some sorbothane isolators for my PPSL manifolds. I should get some force cancellation due to the PPSL configuration, but I wanted to take it a step further. I will most likely hard mount the manifolds for now because the construction time has already been enormous. I am just not up to the task right now. But at some point I would like to try isolation. 

Any thoughts?


----------



## Hanatsu

Yes I use them. They are below the enclosure, I think I posted a pic of it IIRC. It does work. I noticed that the bass jumped forward. I cross the sub at 200Hz because there's no mids in the doors yet (I'll get to that soon) but the stage stays upfront at low-moderate levels... mostly. Better than before at least.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Hanatsu

Received a new set of drivers directly from ETON today. Took less than a week so I'm quite happy. Great that they sent two drivers as well. Continuing with the project next week when I have the system running in my "winter car".


----------



## bbfoto

Now that's some great customer service.  Looking forward to your progress.


----------



## Hanatsu

Little update. New gear...

Got a nice EQ unit, made a review here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/170036-comprehensive-review-apl1-advanced-dsp-eq-phase-correction-unit.html

Big updates soon... new DSP, door speakers, trunk completion etc


----------



## teldzc1

This APL1 gear looks really interesting. I'll be tuning in to see how your in car results are.


----------



## Hanatsu

Well... I've begun working on this build again after a little hiatus. Health issues, too much work, garage loaded with CRAP and stuff like that contributes to my neverending projects lol. I'm having vacation for 2 weeks starting a few days before Christmas, hopefully I get quite a few things done then. 

Btw, dunno if I mentioned it - but my Helix P-DSP has crapped out, seem to be internal ground related issues. Noise through all speakers from channels 4-8, goes away somewhat when you ground the USB connector. I opened it up but didn't find any obvious faults, can't troubleshoot microchip ICs so I didn't bother with it. The Helix PRO is too damn pricey, I'm not putting $1000 into another DSP. Since I now have the APL DSP unit, it will take care of all the EQ. Amazing unit really, keeps impressing me. I'm not over exaggerating here but - the staging, focus and tonality attained with that EQ is absolutely among the better I've heard in any car audio system so far. My 'self proclaimed uber-golden-ear-audiophile friend' described it as "it no longer sound car audio". I suppose it's a good thing coming from him lol. 

Anyway... here's what's on my "to-do-list" (during this month hopefully);

*New "custom" 12ch DSP
*Installing the APL1 - new wiring to support this.
*Rear-channel speaker test/review/measurements (Vifa TG9)
*Midbass enclosures
*Finishing of the trunk, some fiberglassing, lighting and mods.

After lots of planning and experimentation I will use the Vifa TG9's in a dipole config. It gives a better perception of space. It also makes the sound harder to locate which is good for rear-ambience-fill. The P99 got 11,5ms of delay and the MiniDSP board got 7,5ms IIRC - so in total 19ms cascaded. That should be enough. Adding a classD board chip amp from Ebay, those amps are actually quite ok for the task (driving the rears). Since there's no way to connect the MiniDSP boards and use them as one unit (same software instance) as far as I know - I'll add a USB switch so I can tune the APL and the three boards from one computer using one cable.

Here's an ugly schematic of what I'm attempting to do:


----------



## Hanatsu

Sorry guys. I'm going to stop posting on DIYMA from now on. I have a review left to post for Raimonds, after that I'm off. Fun as long as lasted, I feel that DIYMA no longer is what it was 4 years ago.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Wesayso

Wow, didn't expect that! Part of me understands though, I'm not on here as much as I was. I'm miss something that indeed a few years ago was still here. Still want to hear about the performance of the vifa pods in your final build though.


----------



## Hoptologist

I'm saddened to hear that. You've contributed much for this forum and you are one I can always count on for good advice.

Nothing ever stays the same. It sounds cliche, but it's true. I've tried not to change many things about myself that I wish I could make stay the same, but it seems to happen unconsciously despite my best efforts.

I try and visit DIYMA at least once a day, even if I don't make any new posts. At this point, it's pretty routine, and I like knowing it's there. We all have an innate propensity towards belonging, and I'm mainly here to join others (who share a passion for music/audio) in satisfying and exploring that desire. 

My car audio expertise pales in comparison to most people on here, but I try to contribute in ways that I can. I know that I'm never going to change the car audio world, but I have established some sort of connection to a few people on here, and that makes it all worth it. There are still many people that I'd love to get to know better; it's just tough in a forum environment.

Hope to see you around again.


----------



## maggie-g

Hanatsu said:


> Sorry guys. I'm going to stop posting on DIYMA from now on. I have a review left to post for Raimonds, after that I'm off. Fun as long as lasted, I feel that DIYMA no longer is what it was 4 years ago.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk



4 years ago? try 10 years ago. This site is all about that money now.


----------



## teldzc1

Hanatsu said:


> Sorry guys. I'm going to stop posting on DIYMA from now on. I have a review left to post for Raimonds, after that I'm off. Fun as long as lasted, I feel that DIYMA no longer is what it was 4 years ago.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


Sorry to hear that. Tough to see one of the leaders of the bleeding edge go. Appreciate all your work on measurements and trying new things. Good luck in the future! Let us know if you are going to post progress of your builds anywhere. I'd like to stay updated. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## diy.phil

no Han you can't go. We need you here!!


----------



## Golden Ear

Hanatsu, you've been a valuable part of this community. I've learned a lot from you over the last couple years that I've been here. I'm sure I speak for many people when I say I wish you wouldn't leave. Good luck to you in all you do!


----------



## SPLEclipse

Count me as one of the people you've helped immensely over the years. I don't always ask a lot of questions or seek out help directly, but I can't tell you the number of times I've searched for something on this forum and come across your many excellent posts.

That being said, I understand that things change, and I get that. I hope to perhaps see you around the net another day!


----------



## hurrication

I'm really upset to see him go too, but I can understand his reasons after seeing the proliferation of so much audiophile ******** that steers the forum away from the scientific aspect of sound.


----------



## TheDavel

Hanatsu said:


> Sorry guys. I'm going to stop posting on DIYMA from now on. I have a review left to post for Raimonds, after that I'm off. Fun as long as lasted, I feel that DIYMA no longer is what it was 4 years ago.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


With the exception of the events thread section, I am also planing my departure. Thanks for all your contributions. You can join some of us DEEMA washouts at CarAudioJunkies.com ?


----------



## ErinH

Hanatsu said:


> Sorry guys. I'm going to stop posting on DIYMA from now on. I have a review left to post for Raimonds, after that I'm off. Fun as long as lasted, I feel that DIYMA no longer is what it was 4 years ago.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


You'll be back. I can't tell you the number of times I've been in the same boat. Trying to help by posting objective data only to see it blatantly disregarded or simply so misunderstood there's no way to perform 'damage control'. Then add in the crazies... yea.. I've been in your shoes a number of times. 

Luckily there are enough 'good' folks here, and some friends of mine, that I still come around. I am completely with you in regards to the frustration aspect, though, and that's caused my desire to post anything to dwindle considerably.

If you're looking for another outlet, check out caraudiojunkies.com (if you haven't already). Some of the old members of DIY post there. It's a pretty dead forum, but you don't have to weed through a seemingly insurmountable amount of BS to enjoy posting there. 

If I'm wrong, and we don't see you again here... take care, dude. It was good reading your posts.

- Erin


----------



## req

id just like to say thank you for enjoying vw's and car audio with me at the same time on here. it was always fun to see what you were up to. take car han.


----------



## venki7744

Hey Hanatsu please dont leave, infact I joined this forum because of few people like you. And sorry I dont have too much experience in DIYMA to know what was it like 4-10 ago , but people like me really want people like you. But I can tell you I have had similar feelings in diyaudio and couple of Indian Automotive forums. Stopped in diyaudio only to affect me (in terms on new learnings and stuff). If you are moving to a different forum or continuing in a different forum, please let us know so that we can still follow your posts/thread.

Thanks,
Venki


----------



## sqnut

ErinH said:


> You'll be back.
> 
> - Erin


Agree. I think he just needs to disconnect for a bit. RobERaser-2 drove him over the edge.


----------



## SQLnovice

Hanatsu, wish I had a little of the knowledge and skills as you in regards to car audio. I discovered some of your post a few weeks ago and I'm seriously considering the Eton 3" mid-range as my future purchase. Thanks for all the FREE information you've provided and thanks to all the others as well. 
Hope you reconsidered.
Thank you Sir.


----------



## WhereAmEye?

The only reason I joined last year was because I liked learning ways of doing things from people that actually knew what they were doing and seemed mature about it. If everyone with your amount of audio ability and knowledge leaves this site then it's gona really suck. Either way I wish you the best.


----------



## Hanatsu

Thanks for all the kind words everyone! 

The issue Erin highlighted is basically the reason of my disappointment of DIYMA. The amount of testing Erin has done is far beyond anything I've done, yet there are several threads with little or no interest, why I ask? 

I also have big issues with all this audiophile BS that spreads like wildfire nowadays. I want to discuss things in logical, objective and respectful manner. Lots of people still do, don't get me wrong but the "subjective camp" always gets pissed off like you offended them personally when you question WHY and HOW they reached a conclusion. "I heard the difference" is simply not good enough, but that's what these people go for. That's why $10000 net power cables sell. It's ridiculous beyond reason. Dave on EEVblog sums it up quite well, couldn't have said it better myself. If you take a look at the comments below the vid, there are people who gets like personally offended by what he said, like wtf? 






Anway. I've posted the review as promised:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/171172-tda-time-domain-analysis-measurement-software-review.html#post2217630

I'll take some time off and see what I'll do. Perhaps I'll limit my postings to my build threads, we'll see. I'm available via PM in the meantime.


----------



## Golden Ear

^ love that video


----------



## ErinH

Hanatsu said:


> Perhaps I'll limit my postings to my build threads, we'll see.


or the classifieds.


----------



## hot9dog

Mr. Hanatsu, I too have enjoyed your expertise and your way of showing factual graphs and raw data. I would hate to see you leave this portal of communication.... 
I understand your reasoning's- 
If it means anything- Ive learned aspects and perspective about this technical hobby of ours from you.
With respect-


----------



## Orion525iT

Those little "rep power" green lights don't mean ****.

I have always wondered how some people can get more "rep power" than posts.

I also wonder why Hanatsu's "rep power" isn't _way_ more.

**** talking has it's place, as long as the **** talking is backed by evidence and _not_ just more ****. 

We should be having Susskind-Hawking type battles, opinions based on data and epistemology, but sadly that's not how things tend to go.


----------



## subwoofery

Hanatsu said:


> Thanks for all the kind words everyone!
> 
> The issue Erin highlighted is basically the reason of my disappointment of DIYMA. The amount of testing Erin has done is far beyond anything I've done, yet there are several threads with little or no interest, why I ask?
> 
> I also have big issues with all this audiophile BS that spreads like wildfire nowadays. I want to discuss things in logical, objective and respectful manner. Lots of people still do, don't get me wrong but the "subjective camp" always gets pissed off like you offended them personally when you question WHY and HOW they reached a conclusion. "I heard the difference" is simply not good enough, but that's what these people go for. That's why $10000 net power cables sell. It's ridiculous beyond reason. Dave on EEVblog sums it up quite well, couldn't have said it better myself. If you take a look at the comments below the vid, there are people who gets like personally offended by what he said, like wtf?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anway. I've posted the review as promised:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/171172-tda-time-domain-analysis-measurement-software-review.html#post2217630
> 
> I'll take some time off and see what I'll do. Perhaps I'll limit my postings to my build threads, we'll see. I'm available via PM in the meantime.


Reason I'm not spending much time on DIYMA myself... 

I prefer the "other" forum now  

Kelvin


----------



## charliekwin

Hanatsu said:


> Anway. I've posted the review as promised:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/171172-tda-time-domain-analysis-measurement-software-review.html#post2217630
> 
> I'll take some time off and see what I'll do. Perhaps I'll limit my postings to my build threads, we'll see. I'm available via PM in the meantime.


Hope you'll pop in now and again; always enjoy reading your posts.

Thanks for the review on the APL TDA software. I played with an earlier beta version a few months back that helped me identify a phase problem. It crashed relentlessly, but I liked what I saw when it worked, so maybe I'll give it a try again.


----------



## sierrarider

Hanatsu,

I hope you come back around. I always enjoy your posts. They are very informative and objective. It's refreshing to get a perspective that isn't someone's brainwashed thoughts.


----------



## Hanatsu

*OK. Let's revive this from the dead...*

Got really tired of both the hobby in whole and some people on this forum back in '14. Obviously I'm back even though said I wouldn't be, so much for that lol. Soooo... ignore the mess in the last page 

Anyway, this car has been sitting as it were for 1,5 year or so now. Done very little since I updated last time actually. Lots of stuff have gotten in the way and I haven't been motivated TBH.

I will complete this build in the following months. I have a few minor things to do with my Mercedes then I'll focus on completing this once and for all. 

*Here's the "to-do-list";*

1. Change DSP, the Helix P-DSP gave up on me. Ordered a MiniDSP C-DSP yesterday.

2. Complete door enclosures, I've only done test enclosures "Patrick Bateman"-style 

3. Make C-Pillar enclosures for rear fill.

4. Improve the subwoofer enclosure, probably rebuild it to vented instead of sealed.

5. Modify the center console for DSP control and APL1 control switch.

6. Clean things up in the trunk, make custom panels and stuff to cover amps.


*What I have done;*

1. Installed APL1 DSP.

2. Changed headunit to an Alpine 178BT. I prefer it over the Pioneer P99RS for various reason.

3. Built test enclosures for doors. Sounds awesome, no vibrations and insane midbass output with 180w on each side.


I'll be returning to this month, pictures and stuff are coming soon.


----------



## Elgrosso

Hanatsu said:


> 3. Built test enclosures for doors. Sounds awesome, no vibrations and insane midbass output with 180w on each side.




Great! 
Do you have any pics of these guys? (install pics and/or datas )


----------



## Hanatsu

Elgrosso said:


> Great!
> Do you have any pics of these guys? (install pics and/or datas )




*Test enclosures!* With emphasis on "test", wasn't sure I'd even post that mess of an enclosure here... Well, the test was a success. Qts is 2,03 and Fsc is 155Hz with maximum stuffing. With EQ I got the acoustic crossovers at 80Hz LR24 and 200Hz LPF LR24.

They look like crap but sound great, there is so much midbass my head hurts when you turn up the volume lol. Zero vibrations and rattles. After I'm done in the trunk with panels and stuff I'll take care of the door enclosures. I'll wrap them with black/red vinyl. They will be built in a similar manner but with more... care.


----------



## Hanatsu

I did some work in the trunk. Had to remove everything.

New DSP.







Had to move the APL1 to make room.







Replaced lots of the small wiring when I moved the units. Also had to troubleshoot the system after the entire right side went dead. The fuse had gone bad and there was a massive voltage drop over the fuse... 

Done some basic tuning till I finish up the doors and other stuff. I will try to install the remote control for the C-DSP then the APL preset switch in the center console...

Will also install a large fan in front of the amps to improve cooling during summer.


----------



## Elgrosso

Hanatsu said:


> *Test enclosures!* With emphasis on "test", wasn't sure I'd even post that mess of an enclosure here... Well, the test was a success. Qts is 2,03 and Fsc is 155Hz with maximum stuffing. With EQ I got the acoustic crossovers at 80Hz LR24 and 200Hz LPF LR24.
> 
> They look like crap but sound great, there is so much midbass my head hurts when you turn up the volume lol. Zero vibrations and rattles. After I'm done in the trunk with panels and stuff I'll take care of the door enclosures. I'll wrap them with black/red vinyl. They will be built in a similar manner but with more... care.


Wow two! And you have room to put this behind your panel?
What driver is it, that can accept such a small volume?

When I did mine I needed to find around 12L, ended up with 9 maybe.
Can't wait to create some new ones for next car!


----------



## Hanatsu

Seas L16. Very good distortion performance in the midbass area. Got them in parallel for 4ohms, my amp bridged in 3ch mode give me about 230W output.



Here is free air parameters;



It will be in front of the door panels, about 5cm outside of the actual panel. So I have to cut and make trim panels. These are 2lit of actual space.


----------



## Elgrosso

Rhaaa I want to build another one now, much smaller it would be so easier.
So such a high Q was manageable only by EQ?


----------



## Hanatsu

Elgrosso said:


> Rhaaa I want to build another one now, much smaller it would be so easier.
> So such a high Q was manageable only by EQ?


Yes. The cone needs to be stiff, otherwise you can get around with just EQ and power, no ill effects. The efficiency will be low below the resonance ^^

I'd say that you shouldn't got above ~ Qt=2 though...


----------



## Hanatsu

New wiring for APL1 unit:


----------



## Elgrosso

Btw Hanatsu, when you tuned the c-dsp what kind of target did you use, flat/mp1?


----------



## Hanatsu

Somewhat similar to mp1 without the 2k dip, then the APL unit can fix the curve later.


Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk.


----------



## Elgrosso

Fast


----------



## Hanatsu

Tapatalk notification 

Here's what I've done so far today... There will be a panel above this one too, so it won't be visible much.







Ground point for apl1, minidsp, remote relay and leds.




Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk.


----------



## Hanatsu

The RCA from APL1 is only temporary, I'll use digital spdif later.


Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk.


----------



## Hanatsu

Little update again.

Got some new cable sleeving... I'll be cleaning up the speaker wires etc a little better later with these.



Started with building the cover panels for the trunk.



















I'll be continuing with this for the coming days. I need to do some work with the router to make the MDF thinner around the units, then install LED's below.

I ordered a 1,5mm perforated honeycomb aluminum sheet (will be press fitted over the APL1 and MiniDSP), also ordered some 10mm ABS plastic that I will be using for the enclosure baffles for mids up front.

Very happy with the bass/midbass so far. Incredible output and zero ratting and other noise/distortion.

Got myself a 75ohm shielded digital coax cable now between C-DSP and APL1.


----------



## Phil Indeblanc

Woow! looking really nice! clean and pro!!


----------



## unix_usr

Been meaning to ask - why the apl and what do you control volume with using the miniDSP ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elgrosso

Hanatsu said:


> I ordered a 1,5mm perforated honeycomb aluminum sheet (will be press fitted over the APL1 and MiniDSP), also ordered some 10mm ABS plastic that I will be using for the enclosure baffles for mids up front.


Why the honeycomb? For a visual effect with the leds?


----------



## Hanatsu

Volume control on HU works normally with digital spdif. The remote also work, so dual volume controls if you will. The APL is an awesome equalizer that improves both staging and tonality significantly.

There was honeycomb and round hole to choose from, honeycomb looked better imo 


Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk.


----------



## Jscoyne2

I cant even figure out what the apl does...

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


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## Hanatsu

It measures power response. The sound power response is the frequency response into all axis, i.e there combined radiated frequency response. APL Workshop measures this, the FR at hundreds of points and does averinging in sound power domain. Since it acquires data with impulses, it's able to calculate both magnitude and phase corrections. This is way different from RTA/Noise. The APL is FIR based with 4096taps/ch - this means a frequency resolution of ~6Hz at 48kHz. A FIR based EQ can be linear or minimum phase. minimum phase is how a normal EQ behaves, the phase shifts in a predictable manner as you alter the magnitude. A linear phase EQ have no phase shift, phase can have any arbritary response. This allows you to make corrections in the time domain independantly from magnitude.

Basically APL1 is a 2ch EQ that corrects between 20Hz-24kHz with 6Hz resolution. It matches left and right side to a target curve of your choice. As a result, staging and tonality is improved to a large degree.


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## Jscoyne2

Hanatsu said:


> It measures power response. The sound power response is the frequency response into all axis, i.e there combined radiated frequency response. APL Workshop measures this, the FR at hundreds of points and does averinging in sound power domain. Since it acquires data with impulses, it's able to calculate both magnitude and phase corrections. This is way different from RTA/Noise. The APL is FIR based with 4096taps/ch - this means a frequency resolution of ~6Hz at 48kHz. A FIR based EQ can be linear or minimum phase. minimum phase is how a normal EQ behaves, the phase shifts in a predictable manner as you alter the magnitude. A linear phase EQ have no phase shift, phase can have any arbritary response. This allows you to make corrections in the time domain independantly from magnitude.
> 
> Basically APL1 is a 2ch EQ that corrects between 20Hz-24kHz with 6Hz resolution. It matches left and right side to a target curve of your choice. As a result, staging and tonality is improved to a large degree.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk.


I understood about half that. So is it kinda...plug and play?

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## Hanatsu

You measure first, then you upload the corrections the software does to the apl1 unit. You can apply any curve you want, it automatically and instantly applies the new curve. It got a 15 step preset switch you can swap between different curves.


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## Jscoyne2

Hanatsu said:


> You measure first, then you upload the corrections the software does to the apl1 unit. You can apply any curve you want, it automatically and instantly applies the new curve. It got a 15 step preset switch you can swap between different curves.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk.


Measure how? Your 5/3, 6/2 method?

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## Hanatsu

No not at all. Completely different. You measure ALL of the reflective surfaces in front of you, basically moving mic from left to right windows, from seat height to roof and from windshield to seat depth-wise. 

That method cannot be utilized with RoomEQ. The averaging methods work differently.


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## stixzerjan

Sir, so basically you use the minidsp to control crossovers setting?

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## Hanatsu

Yeah, I use the MiniDSP for crossovers and EQing the crossover points, also the APL is only 2 channel. I use T/A in the Mini on individual drivers too.


----------



## Hanatsu

Update:














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## bbfoto

Happy to see you working on this again. I've been away from DIYMA for a few months as well, so it was great to see your recent posts & updates when I logged in. You've got great timing, LOL!  :thumbsup: 

It all looks great to this point. I like the simple but functional floor install and layout. And I'm eager to see how you build and finish the door enclosures. 

Thanks again for taking the time to post. I'd really love to hear this setup once you get it dialed in. There's a good chance that I'll be traveling to Stockholm this summer to hang out with my photographer buddy Mikael Jansson on his little island so I'd love to schedule a detour to your neck of the woods since it would probably be the only time I'd be relatively close. I should probably check into when the SQ Comps will be going on there.

Anyway...keep it up. I'm sure that you'll have it sounding amazing!


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## Hanatsu

There's an airport 40km outside town (Kallinge), if you're willing to take the trip I'll pick you up 

Going by train/car is a 6-7h trip I'm afraid, I live 520km south of Stockholm :/


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## Hanatsu

Wrapped the cover. I'll probably go with plexiglass or something over the amp.




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## Hanatsu

Decided that I'll build a new sub enclosure after I'm done with doors. Probably vented instead.


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## bbfoto

Hanatsu said:


> There's an airport 40km outside town (Kallinge), if you're willing to take the trip I'll pick you up
> 
> Going by train/car is a 6-7h trip I'm afraid, I live 520km south of Stockholm :/


Cool! Thanks for the offer! I'll keep you posted. I haven't yet finalized my itinerary with Mikael.

Trunk looks great and basically finished with the panel wrapped. 

Did you have issues with the sealed sub alignment or are you building a new sub enclosure just for cosmetic or space/placement reasons?


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## Hanatsu

Still have some things to finish up in the trunk. No issues wih sub, it was just not my original intention to go sealed. I replaced sub and couldn't use the box cause the vents were too small. I think vented generally sound better as well. The current Qtc lies around 0,55 so the box is way too big for that sub in sealed config.


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## Hanatsu

Installed a plexi as well, I won't finish the rest until I've rebuilt the subwoofer enclosure.


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## thehatedguy

I have looked at those Seas mids for a long time...always wondered how they actually got along.


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## Phil Indeblanc

All looking super...just not a fan of those mesh grills. Maybe th color is cool and pops, but I wish you can use something that would elevate the other super nice stuff you did. Any patterned perforation or other cover, or maybe its the color throwing me off?
Regardless, as long as your happy, and they way you have it all layed out is very nice!


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## Hanatsu

Phil Indeblanc said:


> All looking super...just not a fan of those mesh grills. Maybe th color is cool and pops, but I wish you can use something that would elevate the other super nice stuff you did. Any patterned perforation or other cover, or maybe its the color throwing me off?
> Regardless, as long as your happy, and they way you have it all layed out is very nice!


Actually... I agree with you. I had them laying around so I just tried it out, I'll may just swap the entire cover out later when I fix the subwoofer. I dunno what I want to do really, entire build has been improvised from the beginning so maybe that's why I disassembled it like five times now... I rarely end up with what I originally intended. Any suggestions what to do is as always, appreciated. 

My packet is coming next week, perhaps the honeycomb grill works better idk...


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## bbfoto

Copy that on the sub enclosure. Makes perfect sense.

I think that the trunk looks really good! However, my personal preference would be to either use all carpet, or all vinyl for the entire floor panel, and probably go with a honeycomb mesh as well. I think the mix of carpet and vinyl on the floor makes it look a bit disjointed.

One other small detail that I noticed (I'm extremely OCD) is that the radius of the corners of the MDF cutout for the APL1 didn't seem to match the radius of the thin outer perimeter line on the sticker/label atop the APL1 unit itself. Again, just my OCD speaking out here, LOL!

And I would probably keep the mesh openings dark gray or black. But maybe incorporate a central "Eton" cutout logo in the floor or vertical subwoofer beauty panel that is backlit with red LED...or a frosted Plexiglas "Eton" logo that is backlit in the polished Plexiglas panel.  Just more work for you!  It's easy to sit behind this keyboard and dictate all the work without having to actually do any of it! 

Anyway, just my thoughts FWIW. It looks pretty sweet as is. 

EDIT: Now that I look at it, I think you probably already made a matching carpeted panel to cover the vinyl/plexiglas section of the floor.


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## Bingonisse

It's the first time I see anyone using Eton products in Sweden, but that sub is looking really nice. What's making you change to a ported enclosure? How is the build quality of the amp?


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## Hanatsu

Ported need 2-3mm excursion at 40Hz / 500w input @ Fb33. Sealed 8-9mm same input, distortion will be lots lower. Group delay can be fixed with processing later...

This is the mid-line amps from ETON, they have replaced them with ECS line now. I opened them up before and I'd say that overall quality and build design is decent but very good for the price I payed. Their top of the line amps are really good quality stuff. Cost a lot more too.

Finally that cover is going into the trashbin. I'm re-doing it - too messy. I'll move the processors so I can build the cover flat instead.


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## optimaprime

Dude thanks for pm I look in to it. And soooo glad your back here dropping good info ! Build is badass.


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## Hanatsu

I ended up disassembling the entire trunk... 

So... First off I was annoyed at how hard it was to access the speaker connections if you needed to remove the amp rack so I needed to find a solution for that. Second, the DSPs were too high in relation to the amps, had to lower them but the APL1 was in the way even if I removed the little board it was mounted on, so I had to move it somewhere else.

This ended up taking the good part of the entire day to fix...



Had to remove the lower mounting board and I realized pretty quick that I had screwed the metal frame after I had mounted that board, impossible to get it up. Only thing to do was to saw it in two while in the car and build a new one. The APL1 input cables were too close the the floor so I had to pull the cable below the floor and remove the back end of the board.

Removed all the amps after that and welded this extra piece there.



Speakon connections.















Now it's easy to remove the speaker cables... Fixed a lot of clutter too.







Welded another frame to put he APL1 in front of amps instead.



Also moved the MiniDSP backwards a little.


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## Hanatsu

Now I can make a single top board.

I'll design it properly this time. I will only have the amps visible. I ordered a large plastic sheet (12mm) so I'll be able to do precision cuts in it. I'm modeling a new subwoofer now too.

I will go with a 103lit - vented.

Slot port with 280cm² vent area. Fb = 33Hz, vent velocity 15ms @ 1000w.

I'm thinking to build a front subwoofer as well, to fix modal issues between 60-65Hz. Previously I had good results using an extra sub to cancel out ringing at the first large mode around ~42Hz. Might be possible to do both with FIR processing. Still have channel 8 free on the C-DSP. I'll building pods soon too for C-pillars, want some rear ambience delayed. Need to figure out a way to hook all of these things up. I basically would require 10channels. Well mids first, after that new sub enclosure...


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## bbfoto

Holy crap! You work like lightning! So much accomplished in so little time! :thumbsup: 

But sorry mate...I didn't mean to set you off and have you end up disassembling the whole trunk!

It seems maybe you are a bit OCD like me.


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## Elgrosso

Hanatsu said:


> Now I can make a single top board.
> 
> I'll design it properly this time. I will only have the amps visible. I ordered a large plastic sheet (12mm) so I'll be able to do precision cuts in it. I'm modeling a new subwoofer now too.
> 
> I will go with a 103lit - vented.
> 
> Slot port with 280cm² vent area. Fb = 33Hz, vent velocity 15ms @ 1000w.
> 
> I'm thinking to build a front subwoofer as well, to fix modal issues between 60-65Hz. Previously I had good results using an extra sub to cancel out ringing at the first large mode around ~42Hz. Might be possible to do both with FIR processing. Still have channel 8 free on the C-DSP. I'll building pods soon too for C-pillars, want some rear ambience delayed. Need to figure out a way to hook all of these things up. I basically would require 10channels. Well mids first, after that new sub enclosure...


Cool job! And the APL leds are even more visible like that.

What's the main reason for the speaker easy connector, cause the amps are stacked?
I'm curious about your sub thing, front one to fix a modal issue? I thought at that FR the wavelength were already so long that they were independent of the sub placement in the car. 

For rear-fill, I was thinking about this myself, like maybe re-using the ms8 Logic 7 after the C-dsp, but jut for rear & sides signals.


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## Hanatsu

Guess I am a bit OCD lol. 

Front sub and rear sub have different nulls, about 20Hz apart IIRC in my car...

I added the speakon because the amps are stacked, yes. Really annoying to get a hex tool down there :/


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## carlr

Looks awesome!


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## Elgrosso

Hanatsu said:


> Guess I am a bit OCD lol.
> 
> Front sub and rear sub have different nulls, about 20Hz apart IIRC in my car...
> 
> I added the speakon because the amps are stacked, yes. Really annoying to get a hex tool down there :/
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk.


So I'm curious to see what you'll do with the minidsp to fix this.


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## Hanatsu

Elgrosso said:


> So I'm curious to see what you'll do with the minidsp to fix this.


Alright here goes...

Going to need three things for this:

1. Dual input DSP
2. A headunit with T/A
3. DSP with Allpass capability (MiniDSP got it)




This is what you need to do. First we need the two separate outputs from headunit.

The Alpine I have got 336cm which equals 9.77ms.





Here's the group delay of my sub (sealed) before any processing has been applied.

It's about 30ms delayed relative to the midrange. The problem is that the group delay ain't flat. We need to add even more delay to the sub to get it somewhat flat before attempting to get a true time coherent stage. The tools to accomplish this is APF (Allpass filters). They are summed filters, they end up flat in amplitude but got a phase shift which cause delay.

MiniDSP supply a spreadsheet to calculate these filters and can be programmed via advanced mode (biquad programming);



An example...



Here's the EQed vs non-EQed response viewed as group delay. As you can see EQ does fix some of the issues but there's still a rise to [email protected] With vented boxes this is usually much worse.



So let's see what we got...

The C-DSP 6x8 got 15ms, the headunit got 9.77ms, the APL1 1,5ms. This equals 26,27ms cascaded. Not perfect but almost there.

Dial in max delay for speaker output and zero for the sub on HU, feed it to the DSP. Now the delay the system by the maximum amount the DSP allows (leave ~1,5ms headroom for speaker L/R delays). Keep sub delay at zero.



This is what I got after max delay in the DSP (no allpass added here), looks like I will be able to do the last 10ms after I've cascaded delay from the headunit...

Here's the idea summed up;


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## Hanatsu

Been thinking about all the talk about how to set gains... It seems like a complicated task for some but it's real easy when you think about it.

We want the gains as low as possible without sacrificing the output we're after (i.e strong signal to amps). This basically improves the S/N ratio. Set the gains too high and you'll likely get noise, either from the amps themselves or induced noise from cables etc.

I just turn up gains to some arbitrary number so I get enough output, then I tune the system. After I'm done, I go and check the level settings over all speakers.

In my setup I had mids and subs at -15dB or so but midranges at 0. The midranges are therefore the limiting factor in output. Ok, since subs and mids are at -15dB we can turn them up to 0dB and lower gains directly on amps till they play just as loud as before (just do a measurement sweep before/after). Now we have maximized S/N for all channels.

It should be noted that you probably should check if your headunit clips the signal with a -5dB tone maximum output. If it does, remember what the max volume setting is. Some music are recorded very low so it's good to have some headroom. I got my max volume setting about 2/3 up on the HU, leaves headroom if I want to turn up volume on low volume recordings...


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## Phil Indeblanc

Really like that amp rack setup!
Nice work!

I found it much better to leave all flat and no adjustment on the HU and control all from the DSP (such as EQ and TA,etc).


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## Elgrosso

Another great post! Will sure try this with if I put 2 more subs in front.


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## teldzc1

Thanks for the gain setup tip. I always thought this made the most sense given the amount of control available with dsps.


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## optimaprime

Nice tip on the gains. I am gonna try that.


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## optimaprime

Is hard to keep with all those Dsp?


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## Hanatsu

optimaprime said:


> Is hard to keep with all those Dsp?


Only got two 

It adds complexity every time you add a pair of channels to tune, sure. It's time consuming to say the least when you start messing with rears and multiple subs.


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## Hanatsu

OK. A little update, I've made a new "floor". I just cut out the shape, I will draw a few designs. I want a finished design to look nice before I do ANYTHING to it. I got three colors of vinyl, 2 colors of alcantara and 5 shades of gray/black felt. I still want something two-colored but in another way from before... We'll see how it turns out this weekend.

Finished with the box calculations for the subwoofer. It will be vented as planned.







Vent velocity at maximum thermal power input. In reality it will be much lower, the SPL will likely be 130dB+ at this output.



I've gotten very interested in adding a center channel, still got an unused ETON driver left and two extra XT25's. I need an upmixer and it looks like the ms8 and and h800 are the only processors that do this for some reason (please tell me if there's more). As an alternative I started to look at software based solutions using a carputer (which has been on my mind for a while). Since my other experimental build (the Golf) was scrapped I want to try some crazy ideas in this build instead. I want it to be something out of the ordinary. 

I found an excellent solution for this.

https://www.hifiberry.com/digiplus/ 

A HiFi based version of the Raspberry Pi3. I haven't read up enough of what the Raspberry can do just yet. Hopefully there's some way to load multiple VSTs and a software solution for center/rear steering. If I can pull this through I will have 11 channels with APL 65k tap processing on every speaker separately. I need a 4ch amp board for this. If the raspberry does what I want, I can use TOSLINK for multichannel signal instead.

Capacitive 7 inch touch screen for Raspberry Pi

Such screen could fit in my center console with a little modding. It's intriguing because this little setup wouldn't cost more than $150 in total or so. The things I'm mostly worried about is the iPhone integration and the actual startup time of the carputer. Don't wanna wait for minutes...


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## Elgrosso

How do you plan to manage them with the APL, just add one more for the cc?

I was thinking about this too last day, but for rear and sides, not especially cc.
Could be: 
Source > ms8 > 8ch = cc + fronts + sides + rears + sub
Front channels > apl1a > cdsp to split 2x3 way
center channel> apl1b > cdsp split 1x2 way
Sub channel> aplb > Amp or minidsp if multiple subs?
Rest of channels to amps directly

I guess Ms8 during calibration would add automatically more delays to rears and sides, to compensate for the added delay to front by apl + cdsp.
If not, then just a 2x4 at the end.
ms8 auto eq can be deactivated too.


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## Hanatsu

If you run VST you can just open multiple instances for multichannel. I think you need

Apl ch1/2 - Left/right front
Apl ch3/4 - left/right rear
Apl ch5/6 - center/sub (with applied dip between sub-midrange in FR).


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## Hanatsu

Got two temp meters. I'll place them between amps, maybe connect it to a relay that starts a fan when it reaches a temp threshold. 





Thinking, thinking and thinking how to design it......


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## Elgrosso

Could you leverage the amp stack? I mean using the visual effect of it, like maybe with a mirror somewhere behind them and a glass on top, to increase depth, light etc.


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## Hanatsu

Elgrosso said:


> Could you leverage the amp stack? I mean using the visual effect of it, like maybe with a mirror somewhere behind them and a glass on top, to increase depth, light etc.



Cool idea, dunno if it's anything nice to visualize though, I mean it doesn't look too nice. Nothing in this build is really worth showing too much of. Seeing how good SiS installs look for instance, makes my installs look like your 86-years old blind grandma made it lol. 


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## Hanatsu

Ok. I've almost finished it. Nothing fancy. Easy to make another one of those top covers if I feel like it. IMO, this turned out slightly better than the former design. Made three different covers, tried out different stuff. In this one I made the left cutout to match the ETON brand shape a bit. My intention is to get a dark colored plexiglass so it looks black and then place two temp meters and a voltage difference meter below so only the light from the meters are visible. Haven't got so far yet. It's only press-fit so I just tried something out in the meantime...











Bought MDF to build a new subwoofer enclosure. I calculated that the absolute maximum volume will be 88 liters after you remove volume of the port and the sub itself. Have to make the vent length longer than I first thought...

I'll begin with mid enclosures in doors tomorrow.


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## Hanatsu

Found an upmixer (DTS Neural), many says this is the best one. Would be interesting to try this out in the car...


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## Elgrosso

Nice, and available on mac! $449 though... Did you find a trial?


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## Hanatsu

Lol. Does it cost money? I just searched for dts neural upmixer and found some download site. Must have been a pirated copy or something then... It wasn't an offical site anyways


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## Da4sti3

Man i just spent the last hour reading this post from page 1 as i only have just joined this forum mostly didnt understand all the technical graphs and such but its a very nice build 
I have a similar build plan as yours with 3 amps 1 for fronts 1 for rears and 1 for sub woofer and plan to mount it all in the spare wheel well aswell  yours is a very nice well planned out design look forward to seeing more of it !


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## Hanatsu

Ordered more crap from tme.eu

TME is a really good place to order from btw... ^^













Tomorrow I'll begin with fiberglassing the door enclosures and I'll also remove the sub - the enclosure will be rebuilt...


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## Hanatsu

I'm trying to calculate the vent length for the subwoofer correctly. It's actually quite hard to predict accurately. WinISD almost always predict to long ports. I wanted 33Hz Fb I got 26Hz last time I trusted WinISD. The vent will also be angled and flared both sides. Another issue is the apparent volume size, although the enclosure is 105lit, 7,7lit will be displaced by the driver itself and the tricky part, how much will be displaced by port? With the calculated length of 82cm it would displace 23lit. If the vent needs to be shorted, the apparent volume of the enclosure will go up and increase Fb even further. Stuffing also affect. From experience I'll simply decrease the length by 15% from what's calculated, we'll see how accurate it is after measuring it...

A good read about the subject here: vent tuning


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## Hanatsu

Update:

Began building the subwoofer. Little tricky getting the slot port smooth internally but I think I managed to get it right. There is very little space to work with in every direction. I only got 40cm till the enclosure hits the "roof" of the trunk towards the backseat and the sub is 38,5cm in diameter. I've rounded the outer part of the vent and I will do the same to inner part. The vent area is large (290cm²) so I'm not that worried about port noise.


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## Hanatsu

Some close-ups on the sub itself.













T/S Parameters after it has been used for a while:

Qts: 0.43
Qes: 0.46
Qms: 7.06
Vas: 46lit
Fs: 39Hz
Re: 1,02 ohm
Le: 1,52mH/1k
Mms: 335g
Sd: 815cm²
Pe: 1000w
Xmax: 30mm p-p
Xlim: 50mm p-p


----------



## Hanatsu

Almost done with the enclosure, I took a little break re-arranging in the garage and helped my mom with some gardening work lol. We had summer heat for the past two days 









Glued down wool on every surface inside the box. I also made a mess with a chalk gun, the damn tube broke and splattered chalk everywhere... sigh. 

Even though I've braced the backside in four places I still feel a bit of resonance at full output. I might add another sheet of MDF to the back, I think 12mm additional depth will fit. I measured the box, without any stuffing the tuning lies around 36Hz, with a few sheets of lamb wool I got it down to 34Hz, I will add a little more behind driver I think so it might go down even further. My experience tells me that even putting it in the car will lower it by some amount so it should be fine. 

No port noise, with over 500w input. So I didn't screw up there


----------



## Elgrosso

Big! What's inside the non slot side, just bracing?


----------



## Hanatsu

Just bracing 


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## Hanatsu

Box is done at least...











I made 5 "pegs" to fasten a frame in front of the box to cover the port etc... I'll continue with doors first then come back to that later...

The sub sounds great. The Fb ended up at 34Hz and this created a 9dB peak around 40Hz, had to turn down the level 10dB initially because the whole car was shaking even at moderate volume lol.


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## Elgrosso

Haha, do you have old/new box curves comparison? just curious


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## Hanatsu

Elgrosso said:


> Haha, do you have old/new box curves comparison? just curious


I do, I'll post them tomorrow. The laptop is in the garage


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## Hanatsu

Did some quick measurements. I'll plug port next time so I can see the difference with the same enclosure with EQed response to the same FR... That will be a funny experiment 

This is with the old EQ for the sealed sub. Haven't tuned anything yet.





Almost 10dB gain at 30Hz.



Pretty low distortion, will be even lower with proper EQ.





Looks similar to what WinISD managed to predict actually.



Did a test tone audibility test with a few minutes in-between. The audible distortion levels are lower than you might expect in the lower frequencies. This is with test tones, so the music audibility threshold will be higher of course, but with music there will be a lot of IMD distortions as well. I really believe a low distortion sub sounds better, low frequency distortion IS audible.


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## teldzc1

Very cool. Are you running a subsonic as well?


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## Hanatsu

Nope, not needed imo. If you got a Fb of 35-40Hz or higher then I would consider it. I got good excursion control down till the high 20s


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## High Resolution Audio

I'm glad you decided to come back to the forum. I really like the way the final trunk came out. It looks really clean. You are making great and timely progress. 

I can't wait to see what you do with the mid-basses.


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## Hanatsu

Here's a little experiment I did;

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/273994-why-you-need-eq.html#post3749106

That is the actual transfer function of this car. That should help to explain why the response looks the way it does when you place a speaker in a car...


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## KrautNotRice

Great attention to detail -- I love the super clean wiring!


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## teldzc1

Hanatsu said:


> Here's a little experiment I did;
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ssion/273994-why-you-need-eq.html#post3749106
> 
> That is the actual transfer function of this car. That should help to explain why the response looks the way it does when you place a speaker in a car...


Super interesting! Thanks for taking the time to do this.


----------



## Hanatsu

Yeah I know, I'm like super slow... Finally I've started working on the car again. I've begun working on door enclosures, updates on that soon. I cleaned up the wiring below the center console and mounted the remote for the C-DSP and prepared for installing the APL preset switch under the armrest.


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## Elgrosso

Perfect spot! Is it the standard console?


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## Mlarson67

Congrats on taking the ugliest remote of any DSP and making it look good! I wish they would have given u some options on the remote. Mosconi and Helix are great Minis not so much. Nice work!!


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## Hanatsu

LOL. Yeah it's the standard console. I had to cut a little in the plastic to make it fit, I do agree that the other manufacturers got nicer remotes but you also gotta pay for that extra touch


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## Phil Indeblanc

now all you need is an Xacto to cut the rubber dimpled piece to sit snug up against it. Nice!


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## Elgrosso

Hey man, you need to come back, Det är jävligt tråkigt det här!
But I hope you're busy for good reasons and not bad ones.


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## Hanatsu

On vacation 

My computer raid6 failed after a lightning strike and I lost a lot of data. Haven't reinstalled new harddrives yet, I gotta edit that video about APL all over again :/


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## Hanatsu

Ah well. Here's the lazy guy again >.<

Been super busy since summer with various stuff, new job, renovations and a few projects. Thought I'd check by and tell you guys that the car is once again in the garage, HOPEFULLY I'll find time to complete all the stuff this winter. I've ordered a Raspberry Pi3 and a capacitive 7" touchscreen, I will use a modded version of OpenELEC to run it as "mediacenter" instead of the headunit. This will allow for 100% digital signal chain all the way to the last signal processor -> amps. I already gotten myself a second center console I'm about to start modifying to fit the screen.

Perhaps a little OT but here's some stuff I've been doing:

Restoring/repairing an old Alpine 3537 for a friend. It had been outside in a shed for almost 10 years and he tried start it up and smoke came out from it. So he sent it to me for a restoration. Replaced all capacitors (it's 30 years old), replaced all output transistors on the left channel and removed glue that had become dark and conductive. Lots of the caps had pretty high ESR and a few traces were damaged. Had to remove oxides and rust just about everywhere. Also replaced the stupid remote/ACC terminal to a simple spade male 6.3mm terminal.

Of course I forgot to take pictures before the restoration... well here's how it ended up:



















Here's another restore of an old amp I got for free. It also had been sitting for years, this is a Luxman from the mid 70's. The last owner said "nothing happened" when he tried start it up. Found that a few caps had gone bad and a signal transistor in the preamp had overheated and gone short circuit base-emitter. Recapped the entire unit and replaced the bad transistor and it worked beautifully. Also fixed the lights in the front which a pain to remove due to them being SOLDERED in place. Replaced the old bulbs with a blue led strip. 









Next project; some new home audio speakers for my parents. I designed the crossover for a non-flat response that would match the overall transfer function of the living room at listening position. The crossover design is a simple 1st order filter with an L-pad on the tweeter, the highpass is an almost perfect acoustic 2nd order LR due to the cascade falloff of the tweeter itself. Enclosure is a back vented box with an Fb of 47Hz meant to go with a sub. These got tremendous output in the bass region but low efficiency due to the way I designed the crossovers. Don't have the measurements on this computer right now... Can post them later if someone is interested.

























Not the most nice looking filter, but hey it works


----------



## Hanatsu

More OT, Here's my large summer project: 

Fixing a quad...

This one had a ton of work to it, replaced the entire electrical system. Rebuilt and replaced almost EVERYTHING on it. Repainted all the plastics and stuff too.





Some of the rebuilt stuff:

























and... etc etc etc. I got 750 pics in the photobucket folder if someone feels like going through it all. Dinli Quad by Hanatsu2 | Photobucket

Here's the end result:


----------



## Hanatsu

Double post.


----------



## Wesayso

I see no speakers on that quad....


----------



## bbfoto

[email protected]! You have been busy. Nice projects! Both the speakers and the quad came out beautiful. :thumbsup: I can see why you haven't been around here much lately, LOL. I haven't either really. I also need to get my @ss in gear this winter and finish up a few car audio installs and equipment updates. Good times.

Hope you're having a great Holiday, and Happy New Year soon!


----------



## Elgrosso

Hey Hanatsu, good to see some news. Yes plz share more on this speakers, how you measured the room and decided to follow!


----------



## Jscoyne2

Check out davemooreracing.com

Friend of mine who builds amazing quads. 

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


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## Hanatsu

I've been busy (as usual). Built 2 full systems for customers during the winter (might post build threads on those later), as well as renovating various stuff around the house. Even my workshop got an upgrade this time. Lots of people wanted me to repair electronics for them so I've bought additional equipment for that as well. 

Actually done some work on my Passat today. It was raining as crap outside and I had the car in garage and nothing better to do than to fixing some of the wiring that had been bugging me for the longest time now. Added ferrules to all connections and added some colorful expandable braid to cheer things up. 

The molded forms for door enclosures has been ready for several month now so I'll begin working with the completion of that very shortly now.





Before / After...





Made a remote connection by bending and soldering a piece of copper rod and shielding it with a bit of shrink tube for a cleaner look.







Gonna replace current wiring to the headunit which is kinda cluttered after all experimentation and replacing headunits back and forth. Bought a connector and terminals and remade it myself. Seems like that P99RS require a 1k resistor on the ACC line to display the correct voltage on the display. Running this HU until I've had the time to fix my car PC system. Probably sometime during summer. 





Also new RCA cables since the old ones are too thick and gets bent behind the HU once to push it all the way in, it works but I don't like it. Had four different terminals on stock, the smaller Amphenol fits the the diameter of the cable best so I'll go with these. They are also pretty high quality which is a bonus. 





The cables I'm using is 2.5mm² which is perfectly fine for this application. Skipping the standard ISO connector for the HU since these are smaller and easier to get in there with all the one hundred other cables. Made a 3+2 pin connection because 2 of the cables are going to the car's OEM wiring and the other three to the trunk.


----------



## Hanatsu

OT post: Took a picture of the speakers I made before in the customer's living room (yeah it's mess).



Destroyed my old router jig in a little accident so I got myself a new one. Every speaker builder should have one 



Here's another upcoming review: 



My little workshop after the renovation.





Here's a box I'm working on for another project... more info on that later.



Did a major service on the car, new filters, new brake fluid, engine oil, steering servo oil change, new o2 sensor and I'm also installing a pair of new calipers since the old ones are getting stuck every now and then. Just finished painting them orange/red. New rear discs and pads as well.


----------



## bbfoto

Wow, lots of updates! Glad to see you're keeping yourself busy!  

Your shop/work area looks great...very efficient with everything at arm's reach. I still love the blue pegboard. 

That quad and the home speakers came out amazing as well, and those old school BBQ Grill Alpine amps are cool. Nice work!

I've got some wiring work that I need to clean up as well, even though most of it is tucked away where you can't see it. Wiring is probably my least favorite aspect of car audio installs. But I can't go too long without the OCD kicking in, haha.

I'm definitely interested to see and read more about the other projects you have going on, but that was a massive "comeback" post! It almost tired me out going through it all... made me want to sit down, relax, and have a cold beer, LOL. :thumbsup:


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## Elgrosso

Cool to hear from you man! What’s that beemer I’m not sure, an RS?


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## Hanatsu

Elgrosso said:


> Cool to hear from you man! What’s that beemer I’m not sure, an RS?




You mean the bike? Ah a k1200rs -00 


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk


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## Hanatsu

Just bought a Bluetooth4 streamer to Toslink. An IDC i10.

https://www.idc-audiovisual.co.uk/Bluetooth-Music-Receiver-Speaker-Wireless-Belkin-Adapter-Audio-Dongle

Perfect when you doing short trips and don't wanna plug the phone in. I'm afraid I'm wearing out the lightning port prematurely with all the plugging in/out I do in the car. This device is supposedly able to auto connect super fast. When using digital out the APL1 can auto shift between the analog input and the digital input. So whenever I don't use wireless stream it will use the analog input. Perfect!


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## optimaprime

Noceeeeee!!!


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## Elgrosso

Hanatsu said:


> Just bought a Bluetooth4 streamer to Toslink. An IDC i10.
> 
> https://www.idc-audiovisual.co.uk/Bluetooth-Music-Receiver-Speaker-Wireless-Belkin-Adapter-Audio-Dongle
> 
> Perfect when you doing short trips and don't wanna plug the phone in. I'm afraid I'm wearing out the lightning port prematurely with all the plugging in/out I do in the car. This device is supposedly able to auto connect super fast. When using digital out the APL1 can auto shift between the analog input and the digital input. So whenever I don't use wireless stream it will use the analog input. Perfect!


You're concerned about the lightning connector?
My iphone6 must be 2/3 yrs old now, plugged/unplugged at least 20 times per day (between car/work and home) > no sign of trouble.
Just had to clean it deeply once, dust was stuck and I couldn't connect it fully.


----------



## Hanatsu

Huh good to know 

Still, wireless will be great!


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk


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## Hanatsu

Yeah, yeah - I'm not dead. Have very little time being on forums at the moment. I decided on a career change to I'm currently doing a CNC education. At some point over the following months I must create "something of my own" as part of the education plan. So I thought of doing some cool things for my build.

Well I thought I should update this thread. I never posted how my doors turned out for example. (I haven't made the speaker grills yet).

Here's the result:


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## Hanatsu

Oh and here's the sub I made for a Mustang 67' - also a pair of kick panels;


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## Elgrosso

Hanatsu said:


>


Sweet, if I remember your old boxes were really tiny, and it seems you have now a confortable volume, how does it sound in comparison?


----------



## Hanatsu

Elgrosso said:


> Sweet, if I remember your old boxes were really tiny, and it seems you have now a confortable volume, how does it sound in comparison?



Old test boxes were only like 2,5lit large and had a Fsc of 160Hz / Qtc 1.9. They required lots of power and EQ (think I had a -10dB filter around Fs).

New boxes are 13lit instead, Fsc at 77Hz / Qtc 0.88. Require much less EQ and less power now. I feel like that slightly boomy resonance sound dissappeared that was hard to get rid of. Might have been the boxes but yeah I was pushing it before


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## krushy^

It's pretty fun to see the the build log since I've seen and heard the car a few times


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## Hanatsu

Small update. I had to make an repair to the APL1 unit I got, the left analog input had some intermittent issues during the last few months. It could suddenly glitch out or start to distort the entire channel tremendously. Turned out that there's no strain relief on the input socket so the physical trace in the multilayer board had broken off. Of course it was a sandwiched trace so I had to solder some wire from the RCA connection to first component on the board that had perfect continuity. Seems to be working fine so far.

I also bought some DC-DC isolation ICs, these are basically DC-DC transformers with a 2W output capability. Same components are used in the miniDC isolator for the MiniDSPs. I successfully built a regulated power circuit that basically does the same thing as the miniDC does but with higher power output. I'll experiment some more with it then post the results, might be interesting for some people with noise issues from DSPs etc.

I've also made some progress on my ground/power distribution block that will replace the current ones I got. It's gonna be a 3x miniAGM fuse block with a 95mm² input (3/0ga I believe). It's far from done but here's some pics:


----------



## Elgrosso

Hanatsu said:


> I'll experiment some more with it then post the results,


Cool, sure interested! Not for the noise but any other effect.


----------



## jamesjones

What's your opinion on those Match speakers? I'm thinking about using the Match upgrade kit on my X5d.


----------



## Hanatsu

jamesjones said:


> What's your opinion on those Match speakers? I'm thinking about using the Match upgrade kit on my X5d.




Labeled as subs but I’d call them mids. For their size they perform pretty well. Never did any technical measurements but I’d say they are pretty clean in the lower range.


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## t3sn4f2

Elgrosso said:


> Cool, sure interested! Not for the noise but any other effect.


x2..


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## Hanatsu

This is a very simple circuit. I used a low powered dc-dc converter for the miniDSP. Components are made by Mournsun and the 12v input/12v output version is called B1212-2W (2w output). Datasheet states you can't parallel them but with some low value resistors on the output it appears to be stable anyway. The LM7812 is a 12v output fixed 12v linear regulator, it won't require a heatsink. It's required as the dc converter won't like voltages above 13V. I'm building a larger dc converter with 3A output using high output components but this will do if you want to power small boards with fairly stable power draw. The Dc-converter datasheet states that it requires to be within 10% of it's maximum output current capability to deliver accurate power values but I didn't see much of an issue while testing them, only some small voltage fluctuations. Output ripple is pretty low, around 70mVpp during full load. I drive 2 minidsp boards in a car with it and it effectively eliminated all noise. You can add a mini relay for remote start capabilities and a led to indicate power on. I never added a short circuit protection, but you can always use a small fuse on the input, 1A would probably do as the unit's efficiency is above 80%


----------



## krushy^

Hanatsu said:


> This is a very simple circuit. I used a low powered dc-dc converter for the miniDSP. Components are made by Mournsun and the 12v input/12v output version is called B1212-2W (2w output). Datasheet states you can't parallel them but with some low value resistors on the output it appears to be stable anyway. The LM7812 is a 12v output fixed 12v linear regulator, it won't require a heatsink. It's required as the dc converter won't like voltages above 13V. I'm building a larger dc converter with 3A output using high output components but this will do if you want to power small boards with fairly stable power draw. The Dc-converter datasheet states that it requires to be within 10% of it's maximum output current capability to deliver accurate power values but I didn't see much of an issue while testing them, only some small voltage fluctuations. Output ripple is pretty low, around 70mVpp during full load. I drive 2 minidsp boards in a car with it and it effectively eliminated all noise. You can add a mini relay for remote start capabilities and a led to indicate power on. I never added a short circuit protection, but you can always use a small fuse on the input, 1A would probably do as the unit's efficiency is above 80%


I wonder why I recognize this 


Sent from my Phone using Tapatalk


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## Hanatsu

krushy^ said:


> I wonder why I recognize this


I do wonder... ^.^


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## Hanatsu

Some updates:

I've removed the C-DSP/APL1 combo and replaced them with the brand new APL1012 unit (will review this in detail). It got everything I need, 10ch individual APL channels, crossovers, T/A, PEQ etc. FIR based DSP with really nice capabilities. But yeah, I'll go through this one in detail later.



Placement temporarily, I will need to move it again. The Speak-on connectors need to go in the amp rack, I'll replace with a 28pin industrial connector instead to carry all signals, speakers, remote etc.



Some random stuff I've done/fixed.








Made a little box for my remote on mini relay circuit.





New wiring (again... I will clean this up even more)





Battery holder had to be modded to fit a 95mm² fuse holder. I made a new one that fits the tight space. (Don't mind the 300A fuse or all the washers, I fixed that before final install).





ABS plastic to isolate it.









A bit tight but I don't have much to work with. The fuse is actually more accessible than it looks. 





More random stuff. Made new RCAs.












A bit crowded around the RCAs. I will make new cables and move the unit about 2 inches to the left to clean it up. Not installed my new fuse block yet, it's coming.







Made an aluminum "block" the size of the miniDSP controller to fit in teh same hole. APL1012 got a volume, sub gain and EQ mode selector. I'll get the proper knobs for it soon.










More later.......


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## Elgrosso

Hanatsu said:


> Some updates:
> 
> I've removed the C-DSP/APL1 combo and replaced them with the brand new APL1012 unit (will review this in detail). It got everything I need, 10ch individual APL channels, crossovers, T/A, PEQ etc. FIR based DSP with really nice capabilities. But yeah, I'll go through this one in detail later.


Very nice unit! Simple and sturdy but clean, can’t wait to have your feedback.


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## Holmz

Sub'ed


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## thehatedguy

Is that the production APL1012 case?


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## Durgesh

thehatedguy said:


> Is that the production APL1012 case?


Yes. Some more pictures..























Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## Hanatsu

Small update:

Working on a little remote control holder, don't know if I'm gonna build in some small magnet or something to keep it in place. Got some new connectors "Multilock .040" to fast connect signal cables to amp rack.

I have made some modifications to the rack soon to be installed, also moving the DSP a bit left, some changes to the floor (will probably wrap it in vinyl with some machined logo or something - now that I can...) as well as finishing up the subwoofer in the trunk. Up front I gonna build some midbass grills and maybe a rebuild of the midrange pods to incorporate grills, not sure on that yet.

Next competition is in the beginning of July so I hope to get everything ready by then.

Here's the new system line-up. (Might add another amp later for rear drivers)



Bought some connectors, below are the multipin connectors for signal.








Installed the new knobs. Design match the P99 pretty much. Aluminum with a chrome edge on the top.









Here's how the car looks today... not too bad for a 18 year old daily driver.



Remote holder so far...


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## Hanatsu

As promised, review of the DSP here: APL 1012

More updates next week!


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## Hanatsu

Finally installed grills for the midbass drivers.





Tried soldering an RCA cable to the connector, seem to work out fine. Think I'll go for this solution.


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## 89grand

Man, you've done an unbelievable amount of work on that car. Wagons are great for audio installs. I'm doing one in my Dodge Magnum wagon.


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## Hanatsu

I've been trying out some things to make the trunk more presentable once you lift the "fake floor". Found some nice paint at the store which gave the surface some structure. I only made one piece to see how it looked, I might go with this. I will make one to fit the left side and one in front of the amps. (I'll use some other spacers for the floor later that looks better)

I will remake the bottom plate completely (one one with the distribution blocks on it) and make it angled upwards behind the amps. Perhaps I'll use the CNC to machine something nice.

As I said before I will also create a new floor covered in vinyl instead. I have started to work on a few different designs. While I'm at it, I'll finally complete the front side of the subwoofer enclosure.

For quick connections to the amp rack I've settled with two common 10 pin ISO connectors for speakers (these form surprisingly good connections with good terminals) and a the 16+12 mini connector previously mentioned for signal, remote, lighting etc. The ISO connector accepts up to 13ga (2.5mm²) and will be enough even for sub when one wire goes to each VC. This will replace the bulky speakon connectors.


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## GreatLaBroski

Cool grills!


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## RogerH

Hi! Nice to talk to you at the last Emma-competition! I don't post much, but I have read your reviews for years. Funny to see you and Kushy at a local event!

Your car looks very well built! Hope to hear it soon! The door pods looks solid! 
I also like the use of steel for the amp-rack. I just realized my mdf amprack is starting to delaminate at the hinges... for my next build I will definitely use more metal! 

Keep up the good work!

Roger, with the black Volvo C30 (kind of old-school)


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## Hanatsu

RogerH said:


> Hi! Nice to talk to you at the last Emma-competition! I don't post much, but I have read your reviews for years. Funny to see you and Kushy at a local event!
> 
> Your car looks very well built! Hope to hear it soon! The door pods looks solid!
> I also like the use of steel for the amp-rack. I just realized my mdf amprack is starting to delaminate at the hinges... for my next build I will definitely use more metal!
> 
> Keep up the good work!
> 
> Roger, with the black Volvo C30 (kind of old-school)


Ah, nice to hear from you again! 

I'll be at the next EMMA 7th of July (?) in Sävsjö if you're going. I enjoyed your system most of the cars I heard at the competition, I liked your design choices and design - you should put up a build thread here


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## Hanatsu

I have started to make the drawings in Fusion now, first out is the connectors for the amp rack. I've finished the draft of the connector spacer/holder for the signal connections (edit: I just noticed I need to move the screw-hole a bit off center). I need to measure the other connector since I can't find any technical drawing of it.







More updates during the week. I have a few interesting things to say related to the new DSP as well, a really nice unit for tweaking a system indeed...


----------



## RogerH

Hanatsu said:


> Ah, nice to hear from you again!
> 
> I'll be at the next EMMA 7th of July (?) in Sävsjö if you're going. I enjoyed your system most of the cars I heard at the competition, I liked your design choices and design - you should put up a build thread here


Yes, I plan to go to Sävsjö as well.

Nice to hear that you liked my car! Thanks! Your comments means a lot. I think I will stick with my basic layout for a while, I still have some ideas that may improve it a little bit... maybe? 

Will make a build thread soon!


----------



## carlr

Hanatsu said:


> Ah, nice to hear from you again!
> 
> I'll be at the next EMMA 7th of July (?) in Sävsjö if you're going. I enjoyed your system most of the cars I heard at the competition, I liked your design choices and design - you should put up a build thread here





RogerH said:


> Yes, I plan to go to Sävsjö as well.
> 
> Nice to hear that you liked my car! Thanks! Your comments means a lot. I think I will stick with my basic layout for a while, I still have some ideas that may improve it a little bit... maybe?
> 
> Will make a build thread soon!


See you in Sävsjö gentlemen, perhaps I will judge your cars (depending on which class you'll compete in)


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## Hanatsu

Hm... I've thought the whole day how I can clean up the amp rack. I want to build everything as modules with as little cables as possible to disconnect when you want to remove the rack. 

Now when I got the DSP for it, the time has come to prepare for another set of channels to the build (rear ambiance). Problem is that I need an additional amplifier and it need to be fitted in the same rack as the three current amps. I got an old Phoenix Gold M50 and also an old Alpine 3544 (both restored) but I think the Alpine is too large dimension-wise. It will be fitted in the bottom, for now I will just prepare the mounting area for another amp while I make the new rack.

I think I will put the ground distribution directly in the rack (at the bottom perhaps) with a single large ground wire to car chassis. This way I can eliminate 4 ground wires ground from the rack. I finished the connector plate that will be part of the rack (picture below), it will replace all 9 RCA's with a single connector and 2 Pin-10 ISO connectors for speaker connections. While I do this, the speaker cables will be replaced all the way to the front speakers with new high quality "Helukabel" insulated 1.5mm²-15AWG / 2.5mm²-13AWG (mids) / 5mm²-10AWG (sub). I need to re-label cables anyway for the install log.


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## Holmz

The connector block looks sharp.
Did you go that route versus Neutrik to have less bulky wiring?


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## Hanatsu

Holmz said:


> The connector block looks sharp.
> Did you go that route versus Neutrik to have less bulky wiring?


Basically. Speakon connectors doesn't take larger speaker wires either, 4x AWG13s are really hard to fit. I want the cables in one spot too so I can collect them in one loom.


----------



## Hanatsu

I fixed some power wiring today, ground wires had been there since I first made the build like 8 years ago, so I cleaned all connections and relocated and upgraded a chassis ground.

Drilled a hole to fit a 21mm² cable to the OEM ground point behind the right kick panel. There's another ground cable going back to the amplifiers ground point from here so the headunit, DSP, amps, alternator and battery ground got the same potential. 

Also made some new cables markers. Basically just an excel document, then I laminated it and covered it with transparent shrink tube to hold it in place.


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## Hanatsu

More 3D drawings. This will be a aluminum cover plate around the subwoofer port. It's approximately 510x195x10mm large.


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## RogerH

carlr said:


> See you in Sävsjö gentlemen, perhaps I will judge your cars (depending on which class you'll compete in)


I'm in skilled unlimited! See you there!


----------



## RogerH

Hanatsu said:


> Basically. Speakon connectors doesn't take larger speaker wires either, 4x AWG13s are really hard to fit. I want the cables in one spot too so I can collect them in one loom.


I sometimes work on Harting connectors at work. They are really high quality, and comes in a lot of different sized. Up to 90mm2 I think(!) All crimped silverplated copper connectors.

Han-Modular® - HARTING Austria

Not sure where to buy them though. Probably not cheap...


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## Hanatsu

RogerH said:


> I sometimes work on Harting connectors at work. They are really high quality, and comes in a lot of different sized. Up to 90mm2 I think(!) All crimped silverplated copper connectors.
> 
> Han-Modular® - HARTING Austria
> 
> Not sure where to buy them though. Probably not cheap...


Yeah, they are industrial connectors. I buy from this place, they seem to have an assortment of connectors from Harting:

https://www.tme.eu/se/katalog/harting-kontaktdon_113619/

The larger connectors cost 500-1200SEK (60-140USD) + terminals, so yeah. Not cheap, indeed 

I looked on several other special connectors but they require special terminals and sometimes even special tools to crimp and seal. It would be the better option though. I use the highest quality terminals available for the ISO connector, the surface area should exceed the speakon connector at least.


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## Hanatsu

Here's a draft on how the front side of the sub will look like. The rectangular part around the port will be brushed aluminum and the rest will be normal MDF covered in some form of vinyl, black probably. I'll have to do that by hand though, not allowed to put MDF in the CNC machine hehe 



Got a new battery charger with 25A supply function for listening sessions and setup. To the right, the new speaker cables.


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## krushy^

Hanatsu said:


> Here's a draft on how the front side of the sub will look like. The rectangular part around the port will be brushed aluminum and the rest will be normal MDF covered in some form of vinyl, black probably. I'll have to do that by hand though, not allowed to put MDF in the CNC machine hehe
> 
> 
> 
> Got a new battery charger with 25A supply function for listening sessions and setup. To the right, the new speaker cables.


I'ma steal that charger from u

Sent from my Phone using Tapatalk


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## Hanatsu

krushy^ said:


> I'ma steal that charger from u
> 
> Sent from my Phone using Tapatalk


r.i.p...


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## Holmz

Hanatsu said:


> Here's a draft on how the front side of the sub will look like. The rectangular part around the port will be brushed aluminum and the rest will be normal MDF covered in some form of vinyl, black probably. I'll have to do that by hand though, not allowed to put MDF in the CNC machine hehe
> ...


Why not use alloy and have it anodised or vinyl over that?
Is MDF better?

I see we have the same large CTEK..

So are those cable Mogami?


----------



## Hanatsu

Holmz said:


> Why not use alloy and have it anodised or vinyl over that?
> Is MDF better?
> 
> I see we have the same large CTEK..
> 
> So are those cable Mogami?


You mean aluminum? That would probably cost as much as half my setup unfortunately. The CNC mill we got can't take that large of a piece either =/

The only advantages by using MDF is price, availability and the option machining it with "standard tools" I'm afraid...

The cables are from a German manufacturer, Helukabel:

https://www.helukabel.de/de/produkte/helusound-400-pvc-lautsprecherkabel-2x1-5-mm-sw-art.-nr.-400089-opc-MT_400089.html


----------



## Hanatsu

Did some minor stuff today. Removed the amp rack and the power distribution to begin working on my aesthetic improvements.

Instead of a bulky frame I will use spacers between amps, only made 4 so far.

Going to make a cutout for the new mini fuseblock from MTA. The cables goes in from the back which make cable management a lot easier. 











I'm trying to make wiring as invisible as possible.





I'll place power distribution and fuseblocks behind that little MDF board there and make cutouts so fuses are accessible.


----------



## Holmz

That threaded rod loos like M6.
I would suggest going M8 or M10 if there is a chance of he car being in an accident where the shear and tension forces can be high.
Threaded rod is also not usually graded as 8.8 or 11.9, which would be another option.


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## Hanatsu

Holmz said:


> That threaded rod loos like M6.
> I would suggest going M8 or M10 if there is a chance of he car being in an accident where the shear and tension forces can be high.
> Threaded rod is also not usually graded as 8.8 or 11.9, which would be another option.


Yeah, you're right. It's an 8.8 M6 but don't worry, it will still have support from a L-shaped frame coming from bottom and reaching up to the middle amp. If I were to go with M8, I'd have to drill in the amplifier chassis.


----------



## ErinH

Really nice updates over the past couple weeks. Just wanted to give you props, man. Keep at it!


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## Hanatsu

ErinH said:


> Really nice updates over the past couple weeks. Just wanted to give you props, man. Keep at it!




Thanks! I got myself a 3D printer now too. I’ll be putting that to use soon too


----------



## Hanatsu

Gonna try printing these in my 3D printer once I've set it up.

Covers for my 3" midranges.



Painted this... thing, dunno what to call it tbh


----------



## Hanatsu

Made a ground distribution rail that will be mounted on the amp rack in pure copper. Two 50mm2 - M10 threads and four M8 - 25mm2.


----------



## Holmz

Hanatsu said:


> Made a ground distribution rail that will be mounted on the amp rack in pure copper. Two 50mm2 - M10 threads and four M8 - 25mm2.
> ...


Your fellow countrymen make these:
And all the way down to M3 or M4...
Nord-Lock wedge-locking washers | Secure your critical bolted joints with the original lock washer from the bolting experts

Or do you lock-tight these connectors in?


----------



## Hanatsu

Holmz said:


> Your fellow countrymen make these:
> 
> And all the way down to M3 or M4...
> 
> Nord-Lock wedge-locking washers | Secure your critical bolted joints with the original lock washer from the bolting experts
> 
> 
> 
> Or do you lock-tight these connectors in?




Never heard about that manufacturer before,, weird. Looks pretty good though. I got a special threadlock for electrical connections. We used it on large engines that were exposed to lots of vibrations in industrial environments. I’ve used it on the extra alternator ground and battery terminal cable bolts so far.


----------



## Holmz

Hanatsu said:


> Never heard about that manufacturer before,, weird. Looks pretty good though. I got a special threadlock for electrical connections. We used it on large engines that were exposed to lots of vibrations in industrial environments. I’ve used it on the extra alternator ground and battery terminal cable bolts so far.


"Straight outta Sweden"  , and used a lot on helicopters, airplanes and race cars.
Also on other big industrial stuff (maybe tensest or oil rigs... not sure)... the local shop actual mentioned the big industrial, so maybe mining?

I have been using them on "the vibrating truck" to keep things tight, a lot of the little M5 and M6 sizes for dash bits.

Those electrical connectors looks like things that want to come loose... hopefully not, but as they are made in your country (and have make it world wide...) it seemed worth a mention.


----------



## RogerH

Nord-Lock's are great! Especially with vibrating stuff. How much L do you plan in SQL?!
I used to drive by their factory in Mattmar when I lived up in Jämtland! Not sure if they still make the product there, though.

For clamping bus-bars in electrical connections, spring washers are usually used. Like this: Flange Washers - bellevillediscspringsusa.com
In high current situations things can get very hot. Loctite usually looses it's strength when it's heated. This is also the reasons why crimped or clamped wire connections are used in power cables, over solder joints.


----------



## Hanatsu

Hehe yeah, this isn’t an SPL build exactly. I used 40A fuses for the longest time for the amps. I put them there temporarily then forgot about it so I don’t worry too much about it. I had to loosen the other bolts I had in the battery terminal by putting it in the vice after two years, loctite does its job in these conditions I believe. I will also put a cable support in front of the distribution block so there’s no strain on the actual connection.


----------



## Hanatsu

Ran my CNC program in the mill today. Used a thinner material instead. Worked out pretty good.


----------



## Hanatsu

Well, I took your advice after all and bought some washers from Nord-Lock. Found a supplier nearby, they weren't the definition of cheap exactly but I guess you get what you pay for.

Made some modifications to the frame and I'm repainting it in aluminum-color instead. Made the first pass today, might have to spraypaint it instead to get a decent finish. Tried out the 3D printer, seems to work fine with PLA at least. I've yet to try ABS. 

Wiring will be a bit tidier now with the ground distribution block this close to the terminals of the amps. Next up is to fix the fuse block, I made a draft in Fusion (never added a hole for the incoming power wire from battery). It isn't necessarily gonna end up in a box like this but the bottom plate is gonna end up something similar to the drawing. Going to place is in a 45deg angle at the back of the sparewheel space (in front of the amps looking from behind). 

The connectors were almost a press fit but I'll secure them anyway, the upper two will have to be glued and the bottom got M2 screwholes.


----------



## GreatLaBroski

I’m loving this. Great stuff man.


----------



## Hanatsu

Small update. Began working on the bottom part of the fuseblock-holder. My washers arrived as well.


----------



## Holmz

Hanatsu said:


> Small update. Began working on the bottom part of the fuseblock-holder. My washers arrived as well.
> ...


Good-O (or the other othe Austraianism...) Good on ya, or just On'Ya for short.

Vibrations and cables may not need the washers, but why risk it?
(You while build looks pretty sweet by the way)


----------



## Hanatsu

Little update today as well... Was hoping to get more done but I'm always so damn tired.

First 3D print went pretty good, I had to mess around with the settings before I got it to stick to the bed. The plastic is modified PLA, apparently it's lots more durable than normal PLA, we'll see. I'm going to paint it to see how well it works before I make a higher quality one (used draft settings for this one). 





Signal soldering connections complete.



I swapped the top cover of two amps, the top amp had gotten some scratches over the years. Took some pictures of the amp guts, pretty nice layout of the ETON amps. Questionable component quality though. I'll recap the entire thing if they die in the future.


----------



## Elgrosso

Very cool this 3d printer, I hope you’ll do a lot of cool things.
What is the metallic triangular box exactly, just a support for the fuse box?


----------



## Hanatsu

Elgrosso said:


> Very cool this 3d printer, I hope you’ll do a lot of cool things.
> 
> What is the metallic triangular box exactly, just a support for the fuse box?



Ah it’s just an angular support floor To hide cables underneath.


----------



## Hanatsu

Continued where I left off...

Painting the 3D print seems to be no problem. I didn't take that much care when I did it but the paint seem to stick (I did use a plastic primer though). This one is going in the bin but I'll make two new ones now that I know that it works.





Dampened the spacer with a rubber washer.







Began making these too


----------



## bbfoto

Nice updates! Great to see you working on this again.


----------



## GreatLaBroski

I love seeing your 3d printed parts, I have a Creality CR-10S that I'm going to be using myself for similar stuff.


----------



## Hanatsu

Wiring is done at least. Moved the mini relay to the rack. Less crap out in the trunk.


----------



## RogerH

Nice work! Looks really good!

Question about mounting amps and components to metal racks. I assume the steel amprack is connected to the cars ground/chassis. Do you mount the amps directly to this? 

I remember helping a friend with a amp mounted directly to the sheet metal, and that somehow caused lots of alternator whine and stuff. Very old car, and old second-hand components. Maybe this is not a issue with modern quality stuff?


----------



## Hanatsu

RogerH said:


> Nice work! Looks really good!
> 
> Question about mounting amps and components to metal racks. I assume the steel amprack is connected to the cars ground/chassis. Do you mount the amps directly to this?
> 
> I remember helping a friend with a amp mounted directly to the sheet metal, and that somehow caused lots of alternator whine and stuff. Very old car, and old second-hand components. Maybe this is not a issue with modern quality stuff?


Had this setup for years now. Alternator whine is one thing I've never had any issues with. The car is grounded to death (13 extra ground points) and the alternator got advanced filtering directly on the output. I've taken great care where the signal wires goes under the mat, also the DSP's inputs are balanced with floating ground.

The ETON amps also ain't aluminum where you mount them, some kind of thick plastic. Only the long-sides are aluminum actually when I think about it


----------



## Hanatsu

Unfortunately I won't be able to make it for the competition next Saturday. I simply have to much to do right now. I thought I had the whole last week to work on the car but I only got to work on it half a day or so :/

Well anyway, here's what I have done since last update...

Signal connector









Started with the speaker connector as well. More work since I can't do it on the workbench...



Seems like the old cables still fit.



A lot cleaner than before:



Moved the ground points to the right of the car instead.



Bad pic but that's basically how I gonna have fuseblocks now. I will use some foil over that aluminum, too hard getting the surface to look nice and clean. There will be cover panels around it as well.



Made another 3D-print. My install logo. I'll integrate it with some fiberglass panels I'm planning in the trunk for later.



Rotating the DSP like this instead.



I will also order a electric actuator to lift the floor, I made some calculations on what type I require...



I need to modify some minor thing to make it fit. I'll probably have some update on it later this week, gotta finish that APL1012 workflow guide first.


----------



## RogerH

That will be cool with the actuators! I always wanted to do that. For the "show factor"!

Too bad that you are not going to make it to the sound-off event. I was really looking forward to hear and see the car!  Maybe we can meet some time when it's playing!


----------



## Hanatsu

Yes, I’ll come visit at the finals perhaps. You’re welcome to come visit of course


----------



## Hanatsu

I built some stuff today, new floor below the amps, wrapped in red alcantara.





I place some thick enclosure fabric in the sparewheel compartment to cover the ugly CCF. Before/after.





I'll 3D print something to cover the hole in the floor there.





I'll finish the big aluminum thing tomorrow so it looks presentable.



Also need to make some mounting brackets for the DSP. I will cover the space around the DSP in a similar plate as to the right.


----------



## Hanatsu

Some fun with the 3D printer.





A cable holder experiment





Made a cover for the mini fuseblock.


----------



## Hanatsu

3D printer 2.0

Remade the remote control holder, some improvements with a magnet "snap fit".









I put a round metal piece under the battery cover on the remote. Works ok.

I'm remaking the midrange pods as well. No screws visible


----------



## chithead

Those cable holders are excellent! One of my pet peeves is that tangled mess on most installs. Love to see some nice and neat wire routing.


----------



## diy.phil

It's so nice Han!! Everything you do there is super delicious and awesome!!


----------



## RogerH

Very nice! Lots of clever details! I like the speaker rings for minimum diffraction and stuff!


----------



## bbfoto

Nice work...errr, or maybe I should say, nice CAD designing and button-pushing.  

Seriously tho'...good stuff!

I'm still using those same mids, but not in pods like yours, otherwise I might have wanted to see if I could purchase that design from you.  Love the radius on the front ring that's hiding the flange & screws, as well as the rear chamfer on the back of the mounting rings. ? That remote holder is awesome as well. 

Just curious, do you think that careful use of a propane or butane plumber's torch would smooth out the rough lines on the 3D printed pieces, or just stick with sandpaper?

What are the largest L/W/H dimensions you can 3D print with your unit?


----------



## Hanatsu

Thanks all 

Just send me a mail, I’m modeling as part of my education so I can do any design you want, bb! I can print 210x210x250 with 0.1mm layer step. (You can melt it with acetone to smooth it)

I’m working on a iPhone holder in the center console as well. (I need to modify it slightly)


----------



## Hanatsu

Made the left cover plate today. 





First beta version of the phone holder, the lightning cable goes inside the "pipe". It's made in PLA but I'll print it in PET-G instead which has better properties. Now that I know that it works, I'll redesign it less bulky with a thinner curved back side instead.



I've designed a few other things for the trunk that will finally give me the finishing look I've been looking for. Should be completed the coming weeks.


----------



## Hanatsu

Made the aluminum vent for the subwoofer today. Also tried out transparent PET-G filament in the printer. I'm thinking it might be good to run some LED's through for nice looking logos.


----------



## bbfoto

Nice! Looks great and I'm looking forward to seeing these pieces installed.


----------



## Hanatsu

Small update. Can't work much with anything, the extremely hot weather is killing me.



Printed a small spacer to screw under the cover plate to keep it straight.


----------



## Hanatsu

Done some work, not much visible stuff though. Been improving fit and fastening stuff. Printed some stuff again. Not much of it will be visible though, just a bunch of fasteners and spacers mostly. Pretty fun making stuff with the printer but I'll try not get too carried away with it (this is probably just about all I had planned so far...). So I'll lay off the printing stuff for a while now.

Fasteners for the DSP. They clamp around the metal frame. The other two cone shaped things are "steering pins" for the cover plate. Since the trunk floor sit right on top of this one I made them quite sturdy.









Had to move the spacer to the actual plate instead, it was screwed to the metal frame before but it ended up exactly in front of the power socket of the DSP so I had to move it.



Every cable is connected except speaker cables now. Had to mod the fuseblock since it only accepted 50mm². The 95mm² is about 3cm larger in diameter. 





Some random printed stuff, it doesn't show much but it's conical sort of, it presses harder the more you tighten the screw. It's sort of pushing the plate towards the back wall making it sit there quite well.

Small cable holder instead of stripes to keep the power cable to the DSP in the air. Might be overkill but wth 



Made a smaller cable holder for the main power cables. The other one looked oversized when I installed it. I might use it for something else instead, here's the improved version of the one I made before in any case.





Gonna make this one tomorrow, to keep the large battery cable in place. It's gonna sit on the metal frame above the fuse block.


----------



## DavidRam

Wow! Beautiful work, man!


----------



## bbfoto

^What he said!


----------



## GreatLaBroski

Loving this build.


----------



## SPLEclipse

The amount of custom made pieces and little details remind me of Robolop, which is probably one of the highest compliments an installer can get.

You're like the Robolop of 3d printing, lol. Looks great!


----------



## Gramps

Mate, you must live on red bulls, lol, i hardly have the energy to build my car the 1st time, let alone heaps of times!!
Your attention to detail is awesome, i truly love your cable “corners”, they look mint and an awesome way to keep them organised, a nice touch would be to print them with their designations, eg ch1 etc, would look awesome on the actual bend!!

Anyways, OT now, when you did the amp resto on the alpine 35 series amp, where did you buy the components from??
I have a 3548 and a 3555 which i bought 2nd hand that were “working when removed” but in case they don’t work I’d like to be able to get them repaired or learn to do it myself

Keep up the great work, 
Krem


----------



## Bingonisse

Hanatsu said:


> The 95mm² is about 3cm larger in diameter.


Typo I suppose?  The printed parts are looking really good, the remote control holder is purely awesome.


----------



## Hanatsu

-Not a typo, cable is 95mm² 
-Bought components from TME.eu. I think Digikey.com is the place to go in the US.

Anyways, thanks everyone for the kind words! I printed that part but it turned out to be 5-6mm too long (hard to measure these parts accurately ). I have made the necessary changes and I'll print a new one tomorrow. Looks like it works otherwise.



Put the amps back in, just the 3 power cables to the amps and then I need to fix the speaker cables. As I said before I wanted to replace them with new ones of the same type and mark them properly.



At least cable management is better this time.





Still have a panel to make (space between subwoofer and frame). I think I'll just make a trim plate or something there. 



I forgot to mention the cable holder I designed yesterday, it's supposed to go the corner of the frame to the left where all the speaker cables come in (where the blue cable is in the picture above^^). It's split in three layers (painted them in the render to view them easier). It looks kinda large but it's really not, the holes are 6x8/1x10.5mm to fit the new speaker cables.


----------



## Hanatsu

Here's a page on how much I've extra grounded the car.


----------



## Hanatsu

Printed the cable holder today. I haven't cleaned it up yet but it fits as it should


----------



## Hanatsu

Didn't get much done, busy repairing amplifiers. Had one DLS Ultimate A6 with DC across the speaker terminals and one Audio System 4ch amp with massive preamp issues with half the waveform missing. I miss the old amps where you actually can see where the traces go, with zero possibility to get a service manual nowadays stuff get tedious sometimes but I digress... 

I've ordered a pair of new tweeters, I fear one of my current Vifa's got intermittent distortion. Abused them for 7 years now so I won't complain, I think I damaged one during the DSP setup a few months back. In addition I ordered a pair of Vifa D26NC05-06, so upcoming driver measurement tests for those. If they perform better than the XT25 I might try something new, heard good things about the D26 family.

The new modified power cable holder seems to fit. Haven't fastened it properly but here's the idea;



The other cable holder in place, turned out pretty much as I planned, dunno if I'm gonna paint them or something to blend in better...



Was sitting and staring at the dashboard and had this crazy idea. What if you simply cut a large pocket on the top of the dash and filled it with thick 2-3" insulation to act like a dashmat on steroids. If you make it stylish with a chamfered edge around and black alcantara on top. Here's what I mean:

(Not my car, couldn't find a good picture on the dash right now)


----------



## Hanatsu

Tested the Vifa D26NC05-06. It's a neodymium 1" tweeter possibly made for car-audio. Didn't have aRTA installed on this new computer so I went for REW with this one. I just wanted to check non-linear distortion mostly. The off-axis data looks pretty similar to the published data.

http://www.madisound.com/pdf/vifa/d26nc05-06.pdf







New function in RoomEQ. It shows percentage of harmonics vs the level of the actual fundamental it ends up being audible at.



From the Room EQ manual:



> The harmonic and THD plots in normalised mode use the level at the fundamental for each frequency as their reference by default - for example, the distortion figures for each harmonic at 1 kHz will depend on the level of the fundamental at 1 kHz. If Use harmonic frequency as ref is selected the reference will be the frequency of the harmonic - for example, at 1 kHz the 2nd harmonic figure will depend on the level of the fundamental at 2 kHz, the 3rd harmonic will depend on the level of the fundamental at 3 kHz and so on. This follows a recommendation made by Steve F. Temme in "How to graph distortion measurements" presented at the 94th AES convention in March 1993. If the response of the system being measured is flat this makes no difference to the results, but when the response is not flat (as for most acoustic measurements) it can remove the influence of the loudspeaker's fundamental response from the distortion figures. As an example, suppose the loudspeaker response was flat apart from a 6 dB peak at 2 kHz. 2 kHz is the 2nd harmonic of 1 kHz, so the 2nd harmonic level shown at 1 kHz will be increased by 6 dB due to the boost in the fundamental when using the excitation frequency as the reference. Similarly the 3rd harmonic level at 667 Hz (2/3 kHz) will be boosted by 6 dB.


Pretty good tweeter, slightly high 2nd order HD in the 4-7kHz region but nothing serious. Could be used from 2.5kHz without any issues. Good 3rd order and higher harmonics performance. Quick check reveals that the IMD performance is also decent, with very little tall order products and spectrum noise. CSD looks clean (prefer the ARTA version but I tried to match the settings in RoomEQ). All measurements at 90dB/1m equivalent levels (set at 3000Hz), actually measured in nearfield of 25cm distance. I recommend this little tweeter, at its price it's really a good bargain.


----------



## Hanatsu

Chose a new color for the power cables.



Ground points behind front right kick panel. One goes to battery, the small cable going back to the distribution block ground point. It's only there to eliminate small differences in ground potential. 



Half of the speaker cables in place.



New cables right side, done.





Marked properly.







Might go an experimental A-pillar build with these just to try something different.



Ordered a bunch of these. They seem to be popular with speaker connections.


----------



## Hanatsu

Power cables in place too.


----------



## Hanatsu

Working on new midrange pods. Made the grills with printed forms. I'm gonna move tweeters to doors instead. Working on a new type of waveguide. Removing the old shell around the tweeters. I'll paint the grills and plastic surrounding the speakers later. I will skip the XT connectors, they were not in stock until last week in October.





















Smaller than the old rings. Yet they fit a grill underneath.



Lockable connectors.


----------



## Holmz

Hanatsu said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm impressed as usual.

Where do you get that hexagonal screen?


----------



## Hanatsu

Eh bought it on Ebay, it was hard to find here in Europe. Seller is called mesh-company


----------



## Hanatsu

Currently working on new pods for midranges.


----------



## Elgrosso

Are they smaller than the previous ones?
(they’re so much good stuff in this thread)


----------



## Hanatsu

Elgrosso said:


> Are they smaller than the previous ones?
> (they’re so much good stuff in this thread)


Yep, a little bit, like 2cm smaller in diameter. The "enclosure" is about the same size though. I opened up the back so it should vent a bit better.


----------



## Hanatsu

Not done very much, busy as usual.

I'm done with the new wiring on the other side as well, changed to XT60 connectors since they showed up now after all. Fired the system up again, everything seems to work. Pods needs some modification (have to reshape them slightly in the bottom part because they are hard to get in place while the actual door panel is there...) I haven't bothered to paint them yet. Made a plexiglass window to go above the amp rack when the new trunk floor is in place later. Had to come up with a design and I'm the absolute worst at designing stuff from scratch but I'll go with it, wth... New tweeters sound great, sound a bit similar to the XT25 but it's hard to compare since I moved their location. I'll trim them down a bit further, unnecessarily large atm. 















Gonna put LEDs the the sides to light the pattern up. The pink stuff is just the protective film.


----------



## Hanatsu

Painted the pod, I’ll have them painted with a real HVLP later when I’m done with all four.


----------



## krushy^

I miss working on my car when I see all this, to bad it has to wait until work gets a little less crazy 

Sent from my Phone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hanatsu

Gonna make this cutout in an aluminum plate that replaces the lid of the APL and insert this from underneath to see the components through the plexiglass.


----------



## Hanatsu

Car is not going anywhere at the moment, steering rack is busted and it's expensive as crap to fix. I'm still doing some projects though.

I made a new top cover for the APL but due to a machining fail I need to redo it, he's the idea though, I'm redesigning it slightly now that I saw the final result. 



I got a Raspberry pi3b+ and a 7" capacitive touch screen I'm gonna use instead of the head unit. The raspberry will be fitted with a high quality DAC board that feeds the APL via digital coax. The software I decided on got some interesting features. This addon called brutefir can load generated fir files from APL workshop, rephase, rew etc and I plan to use this for subwoofer tuning. I tried a 128k tap filter and it seems to run fine, with this it should be possible to attain a near zero delay subwoofer and at the same time use a extremely detailed EQ in the lower frequencies. 



Got a spare center console from the scrapyard to mess around with.







Haven't received the DAC board yet but as usual you get some audiophoolery specs like extremely low jitter (my ears don't hear any difference between the different digital units I got). I believe it will suit my needs as it got the coax out and low noise, which is my main concern. 

https://volumio.org/product/allo-digione/



> BNC and RCA (coaxial) connector
> Galvanic Isolation
> Jitter as low as 0.411ps (1 picosecond – time taken by light in a vacuum to travel approximately 0.30 mm)
> Noise as low as 50uV
> 10 LDOs
> Based on WM8805
> 2 NDK oscillators
> Master SPDIF configuration












I got some time off before Christmas so a larger update will come then. I'm also building new home audio speakers using Vifa NE drivers so there's not a shortage of work to be done...


----------



## Hanatsu

A bit OT. I'm working on the car, will update later on that. In the meantime, you can have a look at my passive studio speakers I'm building.

Using Peerless NE149-4 as midwoofer and XT19 as tweeter. No specific reason I used these two, I just had them laying around. This is a vented design with a simple 2nd order passive crossover with a few components as possible. Crossover is set at 3kHz and I'm using an L-pad to attenuate the tweeters. Used my 3D printer to create the front/vent and the actual crossover "PCB". 

Here's the drawings (colored for easier visiblity):







I simulated the crossovers in SoundEasy and it turned out to be pretty accurate after I mesaured them in DATS. I estimate they should go down to about 50Hz perhaps even lower with a little boost from the room. T/S parameters indicate it should have an -f3 of 52Hz with a Fb of 50Hz. Enough for small desktop speakers.







Going for matte black finish. Probably sanding down and spraying them or I will spraypaint the front and use self adhesive vinyl instead on the rest.


----------



## bbfoto

Looks great. Have you done any directivity measurements with the XT19 tweeters in those waveguides?


----------



## Hanatsu

bbfoto said:


> Looks great. Have you done any directivity measurements with the XT19 tweeters in those waveguides?


I've done some preliminary measurements. I'll post it soon. The directivity ain't symmetric, vertical being more "compressed". It does boost the 1-2kHz region at bit, lowering the non-linear distortion as I accounted for this in the crossover.

Here's a crude smoothed simulation of the onaxis semi-nearfield response with baffle step compensation and the waveguide boost added.


----------



## dumdum

Just read 21 pages... detail is huge! Love your work ?


----------



## robertallinson

great work!


----------



## Hanatsu

Long time no see. This build is discontinued... most likely. Haven't disassembled anything but the car is too far gone to repair. 

Will be a new project, Golf MK6 where I will do things a bit differently. I'll be focusing on OEM integration and efficiency. There will be a 6th order parallel bandpass subwoofer as a teaser. I'll make a new thread once I've picked the car up.


----------



## Angus Young

Looking forward to your new build


----------



## bbfoto

Hanatsu said:


> Long time no see. This build is discontinued... most likely. Haven't disassembled anything but the car is too far gone to repair.
> 
> Will be a new project, Golf MK6 where I will do things a bit differently. I'll be focusing on OEM integration and efficiency. There will be a 6th order parallel bandpass subwoofer as a teaser. I'll make a new thread once I've picked the car up.


Congrats on the newer car and it's great to hear that you're still around. Of course I'm sorry to hear about the Passat's demise, but realistically it is nearly 20 years old and probably time to move on.

I'll look forward to what you come up with for the Golf.

You might want to check Nick Adams' 2012 GTi install out starting at the last pages just for reference...

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/135253-my-2012-gti-build.html


https://youtu.be/XgBzw2iA0Ns


----------



## Hanatsu

Yes, there is a coolant leak, ABS unit failure, interior water leak somewhere and a few electrical issues. Milage is almost 200k... so yeah.

Skickat från min SM-G960F via Tapatalk


----------



## Hanatsu

Here's the new build: https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threads/vw-golf-mk6-gt-2010-oem-sq-project.423958/


----------



## Jonathan2

Hi Hanatsu,

Where did you get the material for the grilles?


----------



## Hanatsu

Jonathan2 said:


> Hi Hanatsu,
> 
> Where did you get the material for the grilles?


Got them off ebay. Hopefully the link still works;









Mild Steel Hexagonal (4mm Hole x 4.5mm Pitch x 1mm Thick) Perforated Mesh Sheet | eBay


Hexagonal Hole Perforation. - Hexagonal Pattern - High Air Flow Potential. - 4mm Hexagonal Holes. A sheet with a hexagonal perforation provides a very large open area giving optimal ventilation. 300 x 400mm (A3), 300 x 400mm (A3 x 3), 400 x 400mm, 500 x 200mm, 500 x 300mm, 500 x 500mm, 600 x...



rover.ebay.com





Skickat från min SM-G960F via Tapatalk


----------



## Jonathan2

Thank you very much!


----------



## Hanatsu

Hi. Been a while...

I've decided to continue with the build... this car will just be a fun project and not a daily driver so I won't have to deal with mechanical issues that much any more. Most of the issues has already been taken care of. It requires a paint job though, clearcoat has started to come loose.

Anyways, I now have the means to complete the build the way I wanted since I got access to both very large 5-axis CNC machines and my 3D printer, something that was unthinkable 10 years ago when I begun working on this. This is the 5th revision on the build and hopefully the finsl one.

Updates;

Bought a new amplifer that will replace the two ETON ecc 500.4 amps. One has started to act up and I wanted a less bulky setup anyway. Bought a Mosconi One 90.8. It's a bridgeable 8 channel DSP amp, a really small and powerful one. Will also get a 4 or 5 channel pico amp for rears, center and extra sub. Main DSP will still be the 1012 apl, it has the 10 channels required. Will be able to put it in the same rack as the amps, I will have to rebuild the rack itself though.

A vinyl wrapped front for sub is in the planning stage. Will CNC an MDF board to get it nice looking. Also a new floor will be machined. 

I will need a upmixer, probably dts neural. I got plans to install a front sub to act as a modal cancelling unit sort of, a think I've made a post about this in the past. More of this later. Installing rears to enhance the stage and center channel for 2 seat improved staging.

Replacing P99rs headunit with a Volumio raspberry 4 unit with spdif output. I will use a 7" touchscreen to control it. It will have the entire music library stored in it. Center console needs some modification for this.

Updates pretty soon.


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## Durgesh

Hi Hanatsu

Looking forward to your build.

Pls share your APL measurements post tuning. Measurements of different ways and full left/ right.




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## Hanatsu

Got big issues with photobucket, I will probably have to cancel my subscription there... which will mess up all previous threads I've posted pictures in. The fkn site doesn't work, uploads fail and it's become obnoxiously slow. Thinking of buying my own domain instead so I don't have to put up with their BS anymore. Uploading directly to the site in the meantime.

I've made the front for the subwoofer, also bought 'carbon fibre looking' thick vinyl for it. We'll see how it turns out. Started working on a new ground distribution block and cable management unit mounted on the new amp rack as well. Everything in aluminum this time. We have a 6x3m (6.6x3.3yd) 5-axis CNC-mill at work so I can machine pretty large things...

New amp is here as well. I'll use two of the ETON amps and run midrange, tweeters,center and rears off the Mosconi amp. Fixed a fault in the preamp of the ETON amp, bad solder joints at one of the opamps caused a channel to cut out at random.


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## Hanatsu

Here's a quick render of the new amprack. Currently in the middle of building it. Using 15x15x1mm aluminum square profile which I'm TIG-welding together. 

Also ordered a Raspberry Pi4 with a digital addon audio board. Bought a DC-DC 6A 5V converter for the power feed.


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## Hanatsu

I'll fix the photobucket mess soon. Saved all images. 

Wrapped the front in vinyl... experimenting with some different colored wrap for "the middle horizontal pocket". Red alcantara works I guess.


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## diy.phil

Wow, nice and sweet style there!!
Is that a Force 15?


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## Hanatsu

Move 15. It's their SPL/SQ hybrid. Need to remove the box from the car so I might actually do a measurement on it outside. Would be interesting to see how it performs. Got it tuned at 32Hz at the moment.

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## diy.phil

Yeah. That 32 hz should be ok/nice.
That big port looks so dangerous like it's going to blast the doors and hatch out!!


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## Hanatsu

Made the distribution block a while back. 3 large 9 pin high current connectors will be fitted in this unit later. Pretty busy with life... building a house and moving from my appartment soon. Hopefully I can return to my audio interest with full force soon. I'm prepping the new house with some interesting features related to my audio system. More on that later, working on my homepage as well, I'll collect every project I've made there.






























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## Hanatsu

Connectors fit at least...









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## optimaprime

Man I love your talents ! AlwaYs treat to see your work


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## Hanatsu

optimaprime said:


> Man I love your talents ! AlwaYs treat to see your work
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks. Hopefully it comes together as planned. Now that I have access to cnc and 3d printing, there're lots of stuff I can do better. Maybe I can do a calibrated mic binaural virtual listening experience once it's done.

The center console is almost done... needs some paint. The raspberry is installed and ready, touchscreen works and the audio board is recognized by the Pi. Need a coax cable and it should be good to go, want to try out my new amp too. More later... 

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## WhereAmEye?

Hanatsu said:


> Connectors fit at least...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skickat från min SM-G960F via Tapatalk


I don't know how I would get along without a 3D mouse; once you get used to one it's hard to draw without one.

I'm excited to see the updates, I love your work!


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## Hanatsu

Re-visited an interesting feature with the Raspberry Pi4 and volumio OS. You can use bruteFIR as a plugin in Volumio, this allows for really high amounts of FIR-taps as the cpu power of the Raspberrry pi4 has reached desktop computer power (sort of).

https://github.com/balbuze/volumio-plugins/tree/master/plugins/audio_interface/brutefir3

For those who doesn't know what the deal with FIR is, here's quick rundown;

1. FIR allows to "separate" phase response and magnitude response. It allows therefore to manipulate phase or magnitude without affecting the other (which a conventional IIR filter will).
2. Since group delay is a derivative of frequency response, by altering phase response with phaseEQ you will alter group delay.
3. It requires lots of computing power and not much hardware solutions are available for reasonable prices to actually use this feature for where it can be most effectively used (low frequencies).

Using rePhase and a really large tap count will finally allow for high resolution phase EQ in the subwoofer frequencies, which I've been interested in for a long time now. No dedicated hardware I know of have the power to use 131k or even higher amount of taps. A pretty standard 4096tap FIR filter has a resolution of 11,71Hz @ 48kHz sampling, way too low in subwoofer territory. A 131072 (131k) tap filter has a resolution of 48000/131072=0.36Hz, which is far more interesting and actually usable. You could theoretically reduce group delay of any subwoofer type to zero, therefore negating any delay caused by tall order designs as bandpass/vented boxes. Another application is to alter staging, to fix ITD-staging issues without traditional EQ around nulled-out areas in the frequency response. You can't really fix destructive interference with EQ, it's not usually a good idea to boost in a nulled region as it will only increase distortion but not magnitude in the same amount. PhaseEQ however, could at least fix the phase difference between L/R as a "bandpass phase filter" and improve center staging even though one side got an unfixable null.

Played around with some old measurements of a sub in a car and with the FIR filter applied so you can see the difference (the actual re-measurement will not look this clean but you kinda get what this does...).


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## reithi

Coming along nicely. 

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