# Faital Pro 8"



## 1metal1

So I just got my Faital Pro 8FE200 4ohms pair to mate up with the cd1 pro comp drivers already installed in my car.

They are going in the floorboards and much to my disappointment found that I only have ~.125 cu.ft. of airspace to work with

Could I use the aperiodic type enclosure design approach? I will be running these 80 - 1kHz.

I know I read somewhere on here about venting the back wave out of the vehicle on kickpanel installs, but I can't seem to find that thread anymore.

Has anybody used these with horns? HELP!!!


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## 1metal1

On the Parts Express Website it says that the 4ohm version can be run in .2 cu. ft. I could make that work.

But then the 8ohm version says .76 cu.ft. 

Thats all the information I can find on these drivers concerning cabinet size recs. . . .anywhere!! No specs at all sent with these drivers.


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## schmiddr2

Running the 4 ohm through WinISD I see a recommended sealed enclosure of .3 cu ft. F3 140Hz.

In a vented enclosure it's .63 cu ft the F3 drops to 70Hz.

Seems like it's better suited to in a ported enclosure.


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## 1metal1

Thank you for doing that! 

I wish that F3 was lower for the sealed recommendations. But I will go with the sealed; and maybe just do 60Hz-150Hz dedicated bass underneath the seats.

Any other thoughts?


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## schmiddr2

Only thing that comes to mind is the B&C 8BG51.
.3 cu ft. F3 90Hz.
But at a significantly higher price.


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## T3mpest

That f3 won't be true once you put it into the car. I don't know about anyone else but I've NEVER had a pro audio midbass I've had to cut by LESS than 3db once it was put into a vehicle in the 120-160hz region. Most cars gain right there and odds are it'll play down to 80hz just fine. Even if it doesn't, by some strange turn of events,if your running horns you have quite a bit of EQ available, EQ it to taste. Even if it WAS 3db's down, what does that make it, 92db/1w/1m at 120hz, that's still more efficient than most speakers. If you can vent the midbass into another panel inside the car that's the best way. So seal the kicks minus a hole leading outside the listening area so you have more airspace.


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## mikey7182

I'm with Tempest. Is the .125cf in some isolated area, or are you able to utilize some small holes to the outside of the vehicle or into another panel/area of the car? I wouldn't run them sealed, personally. I would either vent them or install them IB/leaky door/whatever you want to call it. I had the neo version of these- the W8N8-200:

FaitalPRO W8N8-200 8" Neodymium Professional Woofer 8 Ohm | 294-1174

I ran them with a [email protected], -24db/oct slope and they did great. They were installed in my doors, not sealed.

I'll also echo Schmidd and say that not only these but in general, most pro audio midbass are going to benefit most from vented enclosures. Including the pair of JBL 2206H I am about to install in 2cf vented enclosures.


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## thehatedguy

Was always wondering about the bigger Faital 8s.


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## mikey7182

thehatedguy said:


> Was always wondering about the bigger Faital 8s.


I ran them for a few weeks during the time I was playing with the B&C 8NDL51 and the 2118H. Their build quality is very impressive and they were incredibly lightweight. My listening impressions weren't as positive though. Direct swap from the 2118, they were less efficient, less snappy and pulled my stage down pretty hard. I tweaked and tuned for days and couldn't get them to sound right. Phase, eq, xover, level. Nada. They had a better bottom end, so I think they would've outperformed the 2118 as a dedicated midbass (~80-250hz). Didn't care for them as much in a 2 way with horns though.


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## 1metal1

My plan was to mount them flat on the floor panels at the upper and outer corners, underneath the horns. The magnets would then obviously be exposed and I don't want any water to leak in. So my idea was to mount an enclosure underneath the car for airspace. Then I found out that I really don't have as much space under there as I initially thought. Now I'm starting to think that maybe a good 6.5 inch would be a better option.

Tempest and Mikey, can this hole lead directly to the outside of the car? (not into another panel)

Also, should I use a variovent? Or just cut a hole. Diameter? I could obviously run IB, should I just experiment?


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## bassfromspace

May have to run a dedicated midrange and under seat mid bass.


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## mikey7182

What do you drive? In my experience, how something looks on paper in these 'unique' types of ideas, although sometimes helpful, is rarely going to give you a definitive answer. So, having experimented plenty myself, I would encourage you to do the same.

To answer your question, that hole can (and ideally should) lead to the outside of the car, as long as it's large enough not to create any unwanted effects. Any reason why you have decided not to mount in the doors? Or make some kicks? Can you post a few pics of the area you're considering, along with either a tape measure or the driver sitting there so I can have some point of reference as far as dimensions go?


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## 1metal1

True, most of the time I try not to ask on the forums, "here's what I have. What do I do?" I feel that this is one of those situations where there is no easy solution. At this point, I am so tempted for somebody to just tell me, "Here, just do this!" But that is impossible if you don't even have any visuals to go by. I will try to take some photos later, but the car is a 1998 Toyota Avalon. One of the biggest of my problems is that I have a huge beam (main frame rail) right smack in the middle of my floor pan. If that wasn't there, everything would work out so much easier! 

On a positive note, from all the reading that I have done here (thanks all) I've learned so much that the desire to build my own stereo system is my new obsession. 

There is just no way to fit driver in the doors, not enough space. The reasons why I have avoided kick-pods are because: 

1.) I am a horrible fabricator with fiberglass and shaping it to the aesthetics of the surrounding contours of the cars interior panels (learned that from experience). Simply put, after hours of fabrication it looks like ****e when I finish! 
2.) I don't like space taken up near my feet.
3.) I'm anal as hell. . . if it doesn't look perfect I'm not happy.
4.) I'm a little lazy

I have never used pro audio gear in car stereo. But I am excited to try these even though my hopes that they are going to sound the way I want them to is starting to diminish. I wish I could just put these into a nice, easy to fabricate, ported enclosure @ .6, sit 15 feet back, enjoy audio bliss and be done! Home stereo is so easy. Ahhh, the challenges of car audio


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## 1metal1

Update. . . .

Does anyone need a pair of unused Faital Pro 8" drivers? I would trade for sound deadening; enough for 2 front doors. Interested, just give me a holla.

Went with Hertz EV 165L.5 in doors. I will be running them 60 to 1500Hz.

Any input from you guys on this choice would be greatly appreciated!!


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## 1metal1

I know this thread is a ghost town, but I am once again updating. 

The Hertz 6.5's were not used; I went ahead and used the Faitals. Yes, it took me 3 weeks to fabricate the pods for these. And I ended up venting to underneath the floor panels and to the outside, using the advice from Tempest, Mikey, and the mod. And thank you Eric for convincing me to use the Faitals! You guys on here know your stuff! 

I am FLOORED with the results!!!!!!!!!! Even if cutting into the floor panels was. . .well. . .sort of a nightmare. Incredible impact (my god the snare punch is brutal), and just simply sounds clear and detailed. Best staging that I have ever achieved from any other install that I've done. Finally I have gotten that sound I've been after for years!!

Alpine CDA-9887 using active 3-way built in crossovers. 30-80Hz, 18dB/oct. 80-1600Hz, 24dB/oct. 1600-20KHz+, 24dB/oct. PPI Phantom full range class D for mids and highs. Arc Audio KS1000.1 and IDMAX 12" sub. No EQ as of yet, but I'm not really sure if I will need it(?)


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## thehatedguy

Nice!

Good snap and impact?


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## 1metal1

Yes!!  Especially on Eric Clapton hits.

I wish I could have a little more oomph in the kick-bass frequency (as expected), but given my space constraints it's not bad at all. My expectations were completely blown away!!


I would like to post some pics, but I don't know how yet. I'll read up on that!


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## thehatedguy

So would you believe they are a $40 speaker after listening to them?


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## Patrick Bateman

1metal1 said:


> I know this thread is a ghost town, but I am once again updating.
> 
> The Hertz 6.5's were not used; I went ahead and used the Faitals. Yes, it took me 3 weeks to fabricate the pods for these. And I ended up venting to underneath the floor panels and to the outside, using the advice from Tempest, Mikey, and the mod. And thank you Eric for convincing me to use the Faitals! You guys on here know your stuff!
> 
> I am FLOORED with the results!!!!!!!!!! Even if cutting into the floor panels was. . .well. . .sort of a nightmare. Incredible impact (my god the snare punch is brutal), and just simply sounds clear and detailed. Best staging that I have ever achieved from any other install that I've done. Finally I have gotten that sound I've been after for years!!
> 
> Alpine CDA-9887 using active 3-way built in crossovers. 30-80Hz, 18dB/oct. 80-1600Hz, 24dB/oct. 1600-20KHz+, 24dB/oct. PPI Phantom full range class D for mids and highs. Arc Audio KS1000.1 and IDMAX 12" sub. No EQ as of yet, but I'm not really sure if I will need it(?)


Ack! You chopped up your car? Prosound midbasses can typically be stuffed into enclosures that are barely larger than the frame, due to their low qts.


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## thehatedguy

Those have a Qts around .45


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## mikey7182

Great news man! 

You have your EQ completely flat? What about TA? (What kind of ride is this in again?)

You may try moving your HPF/LPF on the sub-mid transition from 80 to 100hz, and move the mid-horn transition down from 1.6khz to 1khz or 1.25khz. The lower you can get those horns crossed (in my experience) the better stage results you'll have as the mids won't be dragging the stage down.


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## 1metal1

Yes, I did chop up my car. It has 231,000 miles but she'll do another 100K

Most of the time taken was on re-enforcing that tiny enclosure so that it wouldn't leak water. Metal brackets were screwed in to secure boxes while the construction caulk dried (metal brackets will stay!) I added sound damping and that padding underneath the carpet to fabricate an aperiodic-type enclosure. They're about 1/2 inch fiberglass. 1/2 inch MDF rings and popsicle sticks were used to shape the pods above floor. They are 1/2 inch bondo, smoothed and carpeted over. 

The hole(s) in floor that I cut were actually only big enough to _barely_ allow enough room to drop the magnet through. The pods are just barely above the original level of the floorboards (and tilted slightly up and to center console area), so they only minimally get in the way of driver/passenger feet. 

I was very concerned about adding extra road noise into the cabin of my nice and quiet interior. But there isn't any noticeable difference in road noise without the stereo on.  Now I am a little concerned about snow/water entering into the hole that was cut into the enclosure. I live in the southwest so rain and snow down here is a rare ocurrence; and the screen should help keep snow out if there was enough snow to even cause a buildup underneath the car.


Mikey, yes my EQ is flat. Also not using any TA yet. But after listening for awhile I do realize I need to tune. 98 Avalon, by the way. I think my gains are up too high. . .volume 12 is just too much for me. Even though I want it there It's hurting my ears but sounds so good. 

My sub is lost, do I go sealed or ported? My box is too small for ported; recommendations from most people say 2.5cu.ft. at around 26-30 Hz. Also, my box is too big for sealed (It's at about 1.9 box with a covered port)

To the mod: 80$ for mids and 200$ for horns to get sound that I honestly thought would have cost upwards of 1-2 thousand $ (or more). Seriously, I'm in heaven right now I've heard HLCDs cost a pretty penny back in the day, and competition level would probably cost a few thousand even today. But with some much needed tuning, I think for my purposes the results are better than I ever thought possible.

I will also play around with X-over points. It was suggested not to cross much lower than 1500Hz for the horns. But I will try 1400 and the 1200. HU won't let me select between these points. Maybe crossing at 100Hz in the sub-mid transition will help get a little more punch. I like that idea.

I'm going out to play!! Thanks everyone:


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## mikey7182

Great to hear.

I would spend some time playing with TA, specifically on your driver's side mid, although it's hard to say what your PLDs look like without a pic of the floor install (post some pics?)

What I usually found worked generally well was my driver's mid out of phase, and both horns reverse phase as well. I don't think the 9887 has this capability but you can do it simply by switching the +/- at the amp terminals for the corresponding speaker(s). Also play with phase on your sub (normal/reverse) to see which sounds better at that higher xover point. I don't have a lot of experience with those particular compression drivers so follow the advice you've been given, but I don't imagine any harm would come to them at 1.25khz with the 24db slopes you're running.

Your experience sounds like my first one with horns/HE drivers as well. Welcome aboard


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## thehatedguy

Heard good things about those mids, just never heard them. For the money they look hard to beat.


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## Eric Stevens

Patrick Bateman said:


> Ack! You chopped up your car? Prosound midbasses can typically be stuffed into enclosures that are barely larger than the frame, due to their low qts.


Yeah and when done like that they sound like c-r-a-p. I know this from experience  

Run them IB or AP or other Low Q set up and it is a night and day difference in sound quality.

Eric


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## mikey7182

I prefer to vent mine, personally


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## Eric Stevens

Thats some midbass goin on. Bet that delivers a punch!!

Eric


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## mikey7182

Eric Stevens said:


> Thats some midbass goin on. Bet that delivers a punch!!
> 
> Eric


It wasn't subtle. 

That was from a year or two ago, although I am currently rebuilding the truck in a very similar fashion.


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## Patrick Bateman

Eric Stevens said:


> Yeah and when done like that they sound like c-r-a-p. I know this from experience
> 
> Run them IB or AP or other Low Q set up and it is a night and day difference in sound quality.
> 
> Eric


An enclosure that's too small will have a bump in the low end response, and this might sound like crap.

But a simple first order highpass flattens it out.

Transient response with a low Q setup is improved. But there's more than one way to skin a cat, and you can achieve the same benefits of a low Q enclosure electronically. IE, it doesn't matter HOW you get a low Q response shape. Electronically or physically, the result is the same.


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## thehatedguy

Yeah but that enclosure resonance in the midrange will be pretty bad sounding. I've never been able to EQ that out.


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## bassfromspace

I think the midrange resonance issue can be tamed by adding in a dedicated midrange and using the midbass up to say 300hz.


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## thehatedguy

Maybe but that defeats the purpose of putting them upfront with horns in a 2 way.


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## Patrick Bateman

thehatedguy said:


> Yeah but that enclosure resonance in the midrange will be pretty bad sounding. I've never been able to EQ that out.


Excellent point. Even if you flatten out the response with EQ the resonance will still be their in the impulse response, albeit less so.

On the upside, it's at a fairly low frequency. It will be at the FB of the box. In the case of the Faital in a two liter box that's about 250hz.

If someone wanted to get really crazy they could probably get rid of the resonance by going aperiodic, basically build the midbass equivalent of what Speakerworks did with the subs in the Grand National.









It's amazing how drilling a few tiny holes in a sealed box will change the impedance curve. And changing the impedance curve changes the impulse response...


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## thehatedguy

The drilling of holes...I can say that I have done that.

Would've worked better if I could have measured the impedance curve.


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## bassfromspace

thehatedguy said:


> Maybe but that defeats the purpose of putting them upfront with horns in a 2 way.


If one is insistent on doing a 2way, yes. Adding a midrange, however, opens up a ton of possibilities, including underseat midbass, rear deck midbass, midbass in front of the drivers seats, etc etc.

It's all about managing and minimizing problems in the end.


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## mikey7182

bassfromspace said:


> If one is insistent on doing a 2way, yes. Adding a midrange, however, opens up a ton of possibilities, including underseat midbass, rear deck midbass, midbass in front of the drivers seats, etc etc.
> 
> It's all about managing and minimizing problems in the end.


Or ported midbass in the bed of a truck. 

This is exactly what led to my install(s). After a few years with horns, I wanted more impact in the midbass dept. I had gobs of sub bass, but the transition to a pair of 2118H or other 8" mid just wasn't what I was looking for.

I actually kept the 8" up front and ran them as dedicated midrange, but the Audax PR170M0 that THG is so fond of are fantastic in a 3 way as well. 

This didn't just give me more options for midbass locations; it gave me more flexibility in tuning. I have definitely been able to dial in my 4 way setups with more flexibility and precision.

P.S.- Those enclosures are sweet, Patrick! Did you make those?


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## Eric Stevens

Patrick Bateman said:


> An enclosure that's too small will have a bump in the low end response, and this might sound like crap.
> 
> But a simple first order highpass flattens it out.
> 
> Transient response with a low Q setup is improved. But there's more than one way to skin a cat, and you can achieve the same benefits of a low Q enclosure electronically. IE, it doesn't matter HOW you get a low Q response shape. Electronically or physically, the result is the same.


You are correct in one respect, I can EQ or filter it to have the same frequency response.

But I will argue with 100% certainty, they do not, and will not, sound the same. 

Frequency response is a 2 dimensional representation of speakers output in its domain, you need to look at it over time as well for a 3 dimensional look at its response and a better picture of how it might sound. 

A higher Q system even when filtered for a low Q response curve will still have the poor transient performance of the higher Q system.

There is no short cuts for free lunch, every time I have tried to take one those pesky laws of physics put up a road block.

Eric


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## Eric Stevens

Patrick Bateman said:


> Excellent point. Even if you flatten out the response with EQ the resonance will still be their in the impulse response, albeit less so.
> 
> If someone wanted to get really crazy they could probably get rid of the resonance by going aperiodic, basically build the midbass equivalent of what Speakerworks did with the subs in the Grand National.


I have done AP midbass many times and it sounds great but can get a little flat sounding if damped to the point where you would do a subwoofer.

Doing aperiodic requires that you vent the resistive membrane into a larger enclosure which is not the listening area so you still need to do some chopping or modifying of some sort.

There is no easy way to take a system to the highest levels and it usually requires some serious fabrication.

Eric


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## thehatedguy

Been wondering about midbasses under my seats...I know I can get a 10 under there maybe a 12, but not sure how high they would be good for.

Can do 10s on the rear deck if I take out the torsion bars and put shocks in there. I had a nice manifold drawn out in hornresp with a quad of 6s push-pull per side, well you could get 5 per side going through the factory holes with no mods...but I never was satisfied that it would sound like a big speaker rather than a bunch of little ones. Don't know how to explain it other than that.

Those and the Audax and horns up front would be easy to do. Horns and 8s in the kicks will be tough but doable...the Audax and horns easy as pie.


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## bassfromspace

thehatedguy said:


> Been wondering about midbasses under my seats...I know I can get a 10 under there maybe a 12, but not sure how high they would be good for.
> 
> Can do 10s on the rear deck if I take out the torsion bars and put shocks in there. I had a nice manifold drawn out in hornresp with a quad of 6s push-pull per side, well you could get 5 per side going through the factory holes with no mods...but I never was satisfied that it would sound like a big speaker rather than a bunch of little ones. Don't know how to explain it other than that.
> 
> Those and the Audax and horns up front would be easy to do. Horns and 8s in the kicks will be tough but doable...the Audax and horns easy as pie.


Sub-300hz.


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## thehatedguy

That's about where I would go to with the Audax.


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## mikey7182

thehatedguy said:


> That's about where I would go to with the Audax.


Good call. Any lower and you'd have to buy my BMS. 

In my experience, I've been able to run midbass as high as 300hz without many/any directional cues. In one instance, I even ran <300hz as a mono signal with no issues. It was essentially a forced mono source, so it wouldn't have matterred if I was feeding it stereo or not.

At any rate, I've come to have great success with nonconventional installs using HE drivers. The pic I posted above used a pair of W15GTi and a pair of JBL 2204 (both pictured) on sub and midbass duty in the bed of a single cab S10, with a pair of JBL 2118H and Illusion horns/DE500 drivers up front. It staged wonderfully and the impact was... well, it got your attention. Working on a very similar build in the same truck now that I've resurrected it from the dead.

My point is, don't be afraid to try weird ****.


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## thehatedguy

Yeah I could get to about 250-300 hz with them on my rear deck without having much pull to the rear.

I almost did the manifold, but couldn't convince myself the 4 6s per side would really make me believe I had the displacement of a single 12 in terms of acoustic power.


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## mikey7182

thehatedguy said:


> Yeah I could get to about 250-300 hz with them on my rear deck without having much pull to the rear.
> 
> I almost did the manifold, but couldn't convince myself the 4 6s per side would really make me believe I had the displacement of a single 12 in terms of acoustic power.


Yeah we've talked about that before and I agree that your assumption regarding that is likely correct. 1000 bees might be loud, but 1 helicopter is in a whole different league of deafening.


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## 1metal1

Yes, I've tried stuffing 6.5" mids in sealed kick panels and they sounded far worse than the results I got from these. EQ'd the daylights out of them trying to get the sound I wanted, but it was just a waste of time. I wish back then I would have tried venting them! Granted, they were not pro audio drivers (they were Morels) but I expected so much more. They cost about 3X more per driver also:laugh::laugh:

It was well worth it to me to "chop up" my car. If my car was new, then I would not have done it. Apparently some people freak out when cutting a hole into their floorboards. If I ever did re-sell the car, @300+K miles its either going to be dead or worth about 500$ anyway. It isn't too difficult to just get some pieces of metal a weld them back in either. . .sheeesh! I guess there are people out there much lazier than me


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## jpeezy

glad you tried the Faitals, makes me want to get my 10fe200s in and start playing with them.


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## 1metal1

I wish I could have fit the 10's up front Lucky you.

So I have now decided that I would like to open up a whole new world of possibilities and run 3-way up front.

After some more deliberating from others input on this post, this is what I would like to do:

1. use the 8fe for midrange duties: 300-1600.
2. use (?) 8" drivers for midbass: 70-300. Either in door next to hip area or underneath seats.

I'm leaning more toward the in door option, but do not know whether I should use high efficiency drivers or something like Peerless SLS or Intimid8ers. From my education I've received here, I would guess I should be using HE drivers. 

Input is greatly appreciated!


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## mikey7182

I have some Peerless SLS for sale if you want to try them out. They are BNIB. But more than likely you will want to stick with HE drivers all around. I would vote for under the seat as opposed to in the doors as it will require less deadening. Why not use the locations in the floors where the 8Fe are now? Put the midbass in there then put the Faitals in the doors as far forward as possible. You won't be running the Faitals low enough to really run into tons of resonance issues so you won't have to deaden the **** out of your door panels. Could you cut the floors a bit more and fit 10"? If so I would go for the B&C 10NW64.


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## 1metal1

No, I just can't cut any more. 2 mm more and I will be hacking into a beam that is part of the main frame. 

I could run a 5" for mid-range in my doors up front. Then use a different driver than the 8fe for midbass. Right now there are things I love with the 2-way as is right now, But then there are things I hate. Ha! it truly is a love-hate relationship with this install right now.

It seems there is a ton of box resonance and such going on with those little wangers underneath my floorboards. Bare with me as I try to describe what it sounds like: sound that is too confined and has sort of a "echo" feel to it. Some music sounds superb, other music sounds crappy. Eric Clapton tracks sound freakin' amazing. Then go to Van Halen and it sounds pretty bad. Too harsh in the highs, and there is severe lack in the midbass and areas in the mid-range. I just don't think it to be realistic on my part to get away without use of a good EQ. 

So I read into things that Patrick was proposing with a high-pass filter (and I would close off the port). But then it made more sense to me to do what was suggested here as well, just high-pass at 300 and the box resonance would be much more manageable. How much power would you say I need to run to those SLS's?


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## thehatedguy

Just MHO, you will not have the impact of the HE speakers you like if you go with the Peerless...two different animals no matter how much power you put to the Peerless.


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## mikey7182

I'll second that (or first it again, lol). And I even have a pair to sell! Ha. 

Stick to HE. If you could fit some Audax PR170M0 for midrange that'd be awesome. Then pick another 8" with a bit more excursion if you want. 

Or, get a processor and see what you can do with the two way and some good tuning before jumping into a 3 way.


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## 1metal1

Well, I sort of thought jumping into 3-way would help me to avoid using a ton of processing. However, this may be the way I go because I do agree that more time must be taken to dial things in. Bit-1 processors sound really nice. But I haven't checked prices on them. . .pricey are they?

With the limited amount of processing that I do have, good results have been obtained. My gains for both mids and horns are all the way down. So now I have gotten the subwoofer to blend in very nicely. It seems that music that is well recorded (DDD) plays back beautifully. My death metal sounds like ass. So I know that I have read this before, but pro-audio really does reveal a lot! I'm witness to that. 

Also, I had a looksy at the B&C 8Ndl51. 8 mm of Xmax It looks to be a good candidate.

18 sound or Beyma? I will look into those as well.


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## mikey7182

As far as processing goes, I don't know if you can fit a double DIN or not, but not more than a month ago, I put an Alpine IVA-W200 and a PXA-H701 combo together for $400. They're going for pennies ever since the H800 came out, and the Bit10 and the Mosconi and all others, and the H701 is a fantastic, very versatile processor. You can do a full 4-way active using the Rear outputs for either midbass or midrange (because those outputs can be bandpassed) then run Horns off Front1, midbass/range off Front 2 and then your Subs. Full L/R 31 band EQ for each set of outputs and a 10band EQ for the sub channels IIRC. You can control phase, level, TA, Xover all independent L/R from the headunit. 

I am still trying to get an idea of what your floor things look like. Post a pic or PM me a few if you want. If you can't cut them any wider, you could always just put an MDF ring for a 10" over the hole. That'd give you 3/4" and by then the basket and motor should fit through the hole. Just trying to figure out a way to get 10s in there. If you're stuck with 8s, the 8NDL51 would be ok. The 'snap' you're looking for is more going to come from cone area than xmax, honestly. But some other good 8s to look at would be the Faital W8N8-200 or the 18Sound 8MB400. If you can fit 10s, I would do those B&C 10NW64 I mentioned before.

A 3-way front isn't going to help you avoid processing; you'll need the processing regardless because you are running horns. It's difficult to get everything to sound right without a good EQ. You can do some things manually but the H701 would really help you a lot.


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## mikey7182

Just googled some pics of your dash- looks like you can do a double DIN. If you have the coin, I would grab this while it's still around:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...a-w200-alpine-pxa-h701-combo.html#post2040310


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## 1metal1

I could have spent my time fabricating 10" pods instead of watching that worthless game.

Checked out the PXA-h701 and I may be able to foot the bill for it. The combo with the W200 is too much right now.

And I may be able to fit 10" but it is really going to become a PIA (at least my a**) as far as foot room is concerned. I also wonder if the difference is going to be worth it?

Really though, thanks for pointing me toward that processor.


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## mikey7182

I know you'd be without tunes for a bit, but you could always sell the 9887 to fund the W200.  

An alternative would be looking for an RUX-C701 controller. It's a single DIN and looks like an Alpine HU. You could keep your 9887, then put that under it in the dash, and use it to control your H701 but still have all the HU functions (minus the tuning portion) of the 9887, i.e. iPod, Sirius XM, bluetooh, or whatever else you're using it for. Personally, i like the W200 the best for an H701 interface, but a lot of guys run the C701 and like it.


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## Patrick Bateman

1metal1 said:


> I wish I could have fit the 10's up front Lucky you.
> 
> So I have now decided that I would like to open up a whole new world of possibilities and run 3-way up front.
> 
> After some more deliberating from others input on this post, this is what I would like to do:
> 
> 1. use the 8fe for midrange duties: 300-1600.
> 2. use (?) 8" drivers for midbass: 70-300. Either in door next to hip area or underneath seats.
> 
> I'm leaning more toward the in door option, but do not know whether I should use high efficiency drivers or something like Peerless SLS or Intimid8ers. From my education I've received here, I would guess I should be using HE drivers.
> 
> Input is greatly appreciated!


Why do you want a three way system?


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## 1metal1

impact in bass guitar and kick-drum frequency range.


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## Patrick Bateman

1metal1 said:


> impact in bass guitar and kick-drum frequency range.


Bass guitar resonates at 41hz, 55hz, 73hz, and 98hz. (Bass guitar tuning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Here's those frequencies, along with their second and third harmonics:
41hz, 82hz, 123hz
55hz, 110hz, 165hz
73hz, 146hz, 219hz
98hz, 196hz, 294hz

IMHO, there are a couple things that are important for dynamics. The first is sheer displacement; you want a speaker that has a lot of output. I personally don't think that it matters if that speaker is high efficiency and low excursion, or low efficiency and high excursion. *All that matters is that it can move a lot of air.*

Once you've satisfied the first requirement (displacement), a second 'nice to have' is accurate phase response.

That second requirement is a tricky one - *and the reason that I personally would NOT go with a three way if you're pursuing bass guitar impact.*

Basically I would want one speaker covering the whole range of bass guitar, plus a smooth rolloff one octave above and below the required frequency range. For bass guitar, that means a single speaker covering the three octaves from 40hz to 320hz, plus a smooth rolloff down to 20hz and up to 640hz.

I think the tricky part with a three way is that you have a transition from one speaker to another right in the middle of where those notes are, and that means that the notes and their harmonics are 'spread out' over two drivers. That's not a problem if the midrange and midbass are in-phase, but it's really difficult to get that right in a car. Not impossible, but requires a really solid understanding of loudspeaker phase, crossover filters, comb filtering, etc.

The easier solution - by far - is to run the 8" midbass all the way up to where it hands off to the compression driver.

When I was running B&C eights and JBL compression drivers I was doing that, with crossover points of 80hz and 1khz for the midbass and 1khz for the compression driver.


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## danno14

> B&C 8Ndl51. 8 mm of Xmax It looks to be a good candidate


Thats why I snagged a set a while ago.... with no actual plans to use them 
Hell of a driver!


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## Patrick Bateman

danno14 said:


> Thats why I snagged a set a while ago.... with no actual plans to use them
> Hell of a driver!


I really need to sell mine. They look like hell from being on the floorboards, but work fine. Have been reluctant to part with them because they probably won't sell for much due to the abuse.


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## 1metal1

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Hope these work! 
Patrick, so what I'm gathering is maybe I should just do a direct swap with the 8NDL51's?


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## 1metal1

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## 1metal1

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## Patrick Bateman

1metal1 said:


> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> Hope these work!
> Patrick, so what I'm gathering is maybe I should just do a direct swap with the 8NDL51's?


So far it looks solid to me, I don't see any good reason to change anything. An 8" midbass coupled to a HLCD is a winning combination. Sure, the 8NDL51 is a great midbass, but the Faital is no slouch either.

I'd order some reticulated foam and fashion a grill to protect the woofer cones though. (The reticulated foam is acoustically transparent at these frequencies, but it will keep water off the cones to an extent.)


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## cajunner

ever since I read about that guy that had his woman with him, got stopped or went through a checkpoint and they found a "hidden compartment" that was his speaker cab, I get a little voice in my head that says "don't do it" when I want to do steel sub-floor enclosures and such...


I think they made him sit in a holding area for hours, maybe even got strip searched, I think it was a news bit a few months ago.


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## Patrick Bateman

cajunner said:


> ever since I read about that guy that had his woman with him, got stopped or went through a checkpoint and they found a "hidden compartment" that was his speaker cab, I get a little voice in my head that says "don't do it" when I want to do steel sub-floor enclosures and such...
> 
> 
> I think they made him sit in a holding area for hours, maybe even got strip searched, I think it was a news bit a few months ago.


That stuff is so random. I live 45 minutes from Mexico and the security at the border is minimal. You can walk from Tijuana to the US border without even emptying your pockets or dealing with a pat-down.


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## cajunner

Patrick Bateman said:


> That stuff is so random. I live 45 minutes from Mexico and the security at the border is minimal. You can walk from Tijuana to the US border without even emptying your pockets or dealing with a pat-down.


not really worried about crossing into foreign countries, haha..

and I guess if you have these compartments with no obvious car stereo installation, it would be a lot worse if a cop looks under the vehicle and sees the box stuck under there.

they do a lot of inspecting, when they stop people along the I-10 corridor and that's where I often find myself, so...

but it's true that you could go your whole life with little hidden compartments all over your vehicle and not be troubled.


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## 1metal1

There are still a few touch-ups I need to do. And covering the cones with a grill and that reticulated foam is priority.

Is a coat of (gray) spray-paint going to cause any negative effect on the cones? I would also like to blend the horns in with some sort of gray covering that doesn't negatively impact the output from the horns.


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## Patrick Bateman

1metal1 said:


> There are still a few touch-ups I need to do. And covering the cones with a grill and that reticulated foam is priority.
> 
> Is a coat of (gray) spray-paint going to cause any negative effect on the cones? I would also like to blend the horns in with some sort of gray covering that doesn't negatively impact the output from the horns.


I'd be a little bit nervous about the solvents in spray paint. They might disintegrate the surround. I once tried making a composite cone by layering fiberglass fabric on a paper cone, and the surround evaporated from the fumes.

So if it were me, I'd use water based paint and I'd apply it with a brush... carefully.

Note that this will change the T/S parameters slightly, but the effect shouldn't be audible, particularly in a sealed box.

If you want to kill two birds with one stone, you may be able to find a water based paint that's water resistant. Then you can skip the reticulated foam (which is a pain in the ass to find.)

What's the practical difference between "latex" and "acrylic" water dispersion paint? - Home Improvement Stack Exchange


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## thehatedguy

I've spray dyed several sun bleached cones without a problem.


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## 1metal1

[/URL]
How is this cloth? This is/was a speaker cover for an old, early '90's KLH. I'm going to assume that it's acoustically transparent. And looks to be very easy to work with.

I could spray the grill cover with gray; I'd prefer sturdy metal so feet can rest on them and durable enough to stand on. Parts Express has grill covers, last time I checked the catalog? Then I could use adhesive to attach the cloth stuff to the grill (underneath). I think this could keep some water out, but a sole full of snow would probably cause leak-through to the cone.


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## Patrick Bateman

Nearly anything is acoustically transparent at these frequencies.
If it were me I'd get some fabric at the local fabric store that has some spandex in it, so you can stretch it tight.


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