# Designing SQ mids and highs for 150db+ bass



## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

So I'm making a 150db+ system and right now I have my 4 15s running on super low power but will soon be running on good power and so I need to come up with a front stage.

I'm thinking 4 tweeters per a pillar directed towards the dome light (making an X in terms of speaker direction), but I'm a noob to SQ so idk if this is the best option.

I want my front stage to sound pretty great and it obviously needs to be loud. I have the OCD to get me through a super tedious SQ install so I'm up for anything... lol.

Like I said I'm thinking 4 tweeters per A Pillar and then the 4 5.25s could go off axis in the doors or on axis via pods...

I'm not really set on what components I am getting but this is what I have in mind so far...

Pioneer TS-A1305C 5.25" A-Series Component Car Speaker System

So yeah I'd appreciate some helpful input.


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

i have never heard of sound quality with that many speakers or even that loud,could just be me but not sure that will be sound quality at all,


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

Lou Frasier2 said:


> i have never heard of sound quality with that many speakers or even that loud,could just be me but not sure that will be sound quality at all,


Yeah I should've said that in the OP. I don't expect this to win any SQ competitions. I just want to get the best sq I can for a system like this. If I'm fiberglassing pods for 16 speakers I want to do it right the first time. I'm mainly just concerned with driver placement but like you said there's going to be so many speakers in the car that being concerned about anything but maybe x-over points may be a lost cause.


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

If you want loud a few watts on a horn will drive you out of the car.

Josh


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

JoshHefnerX said:


> If you want loud a few watts on a horn will drive you out of the car.
> 
> Josh


I want it to have fidelity though...

I guess I should just do what I'm thinking and put 4 1 inch tweeters and 4 3 inch midranges in my a pillars and then do a midbass or two in each of my doors and see if I like it. Every forum I post this on asking for help I always get mothing but jokes :/


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

so you want to enjoy music at 150db+ ??? That is defying science. Your body will not enjoy anything at that level. Your ear drums will hate you


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

theoldguy said:


> so you want to enjoy music at 150db+ ??? That is defying science. Your body will not enjoy anything at that level. Your ear drums will hate you


I want it to be loud enough so when I crank it it still sounds like music rather than just a bassline


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

Based said:


> I want it to be loud enough so when I crank it it still sounds like music rather than just a bassline


You are lost. I think you need to meet a DIYMA member locally and see what we are all about. It will change you.

Edit: probably not, but in 10 years it will.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

Based said:


> I want it to be loud enough so when I crank it it still sounds like music rather than just a bassline













so basically you want to put the experience of standing in front of thousands of dollars worth of equipment at a real concert in to your vehicle? Good luck with that. IF it were easily possible.... dont you think it would have been done by now by a lot of people?


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## Airforceyooper (Sep 22, 2005)

As you start getting into spl levels over about 110 maybe 115 db ... someone correct me here ... your ear starts to distort sound due to the limitations of the eardrum. Even if the system had excellent sound at 150 db in the vehicle, you'd have to be so far away from the vehicle to get the spl down to an acceptable level that you'd lose all stereo separation and certain frequencies wouldn't travel that well in the open air so then you'd be losing frequency too ... Man, I just don't see this working out.


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

LMFAO AT THAT GIF!

I know this is a SQ oriented forum that's why I came here because I want my front to sound very good...


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

Based said:


> LMFAO AT THAT GIF!
> 
> I know this is a SQ oriented forum that's why I came here because I want my front to sound very good...


it gets me every time. 

ITs pretty much one or the other. Be extremely loud, or sound good. If you want both, you need to compromise.


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

Well Imma try and get it the best I can...


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

I would just stick with a few sets of nice passive components and place the mids in the doors and the tweets in the pillars like you are planning. You have no need for T/A or really a DSP. It sounds like all you are really after is some mids and highs that will keep up with your woofers.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

I understand wanting it to sound decent and not just bass. It's not my think but it would be an accomplishment to have the fronts keep up with the subs and to sound ok when listening at normal levels. 

I think you should revisit horns, it sounds like the obvious solution. Some of the best sounding cars in the world have used horns. Some of the legendary SQ cars have used horns. Couple it with some 10" pro audio midbasses ( or however big and however many you require) and you might end up with a relatively cheap and efficient front stage that may not match the subs at full tilt but would get loud enough to do instant hearing damage for no more power than a lot of us use on a traditional front stage. 

I guess the question is do you really want a front stage that will do 150db or one that will get extremely loud but not 150db loud and sound good doing so?


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Airforceyooper said:


> As you start getting into spl levels over about 110 maybe 115 db ... someone correct me here ... your ear starts to distort sound due to the limitations of the eardrum. Even if the system had excellent sound at 150 db in the vehicle, you'd have to be so far away from the vehicle to get the spl down to an acceptable level that you'd lose all stereo separation and certain frequencies wouldn't travel that well in the open air so then you'd be losing frequency too ... Man, I just don't see this working out.


THIS x100 ^^^^^

SQ at above 120db is pointless. your ears cant hear it anyway.


as for fidelity at high level SPL, get a set of HLCDs. Eric Stevens horns with the ultra drivers are 111db 1w/1m and will accept over 100 watts. well over 130 db is possible. 

Where you will run into problems is the mids. even a PA midbass will only be about 97-98db 1w/1m. so you will have to run 250 watts on an 8" midbass to get 125 db out of it. I am sure I dont have to do the math to tell you , you will never make it to 150 db.


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## etroze (Dec 24, 2013)

Sounds like some Pro Audio would work out for you. Will the front stage hit 150db no probably not but you don't need 150db front stage to keep up with 150db substage. The highs will come through you just won't have any low mid range or mid bass.
Hell I don't know many people that could take that much SPL driving around daily.
Good luck with your goals.

edit: minibar hit what I was trying to say.


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

I looked at the ID horns and the specs say they should be crossed at 800 and 2k... So I'd need tweeters to match the horns and if that's the case I might as well just do a bunch of comp sets.


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## tat2bass (Aug 18, 2012)

What is your budget? I would just go with a set of Hertz HSK165XL's. I have seen and heard them keep up with a 150 substage. But you really don't need your speakers to keep up with that. In reality, you will not be driving around bumping 150 all the time unless you have an absolute amazing electrical system. 

1. Your electrical probably won't be able to support riding around at 150 for longer than 5-10 min. 2. You wont be able to drive around listening to 150 for longer than 5-10 min. So the majority of the time you will have your substage turned down. 

The hertz above sound amazing and handle gobs of power and get loud. You really only need one set to sound great and it will keep up for those short bursts of when you want to crank it.


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## ilikepinktacos (Jun 14, 2013)

Based said:


> I want it to have fidelity though...
> 
> I guess I should just do what I'm thinking and put 4 1 inch tweeters and 4 3 inch midranges in my a pillars and then do a midbass or two in each of my doors and see if I like it. Every forum I post this on asking for help I always get mothing but jokes :/


I think the reason you're getting jokes is you're asking for a phsically impossible thing that won't even be enjoyable. It's like asking for a car to do 8 second 1/4 miles while still doing 35 MPG, it's jist not going to work. Look at the size of the drivers involved to push your substage to 150+ how many tweeters and mids would you think it would take to equal that output?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Based said:


> So I'm making a 150db+ system and right now I have my 4 15s running on super low power but will soon be running on good power and so I need to come up with a front stage.
> 
> I'm thinking 4 tweeters per a pillar directed towards the dome light (making an X in terms of speaker direction), but I'm a noob to SQ so idk if this is the best option.
> 
> ...


ignore the haters, this sounds like a fun project.

First off, *don't bother using more than one tweeter per side.* High frequencies are very very very short. Basically when you use more than one tweeter, *you get LESS output not more.*

If I were aiming for 150dB, I would use a frequency response curve that delivers a LOT of low frequency, less at the mids, and the least at the highs.

For instance, something like this:

Low frequency (30hz - 120hz) : 150dB
midrange (240-2khz) : 130dB
highs : (2khz - 20khz) : 120dB

As always, midbass is the toughest.

In order to do 120dB at 2khz, you'll need a driver with an efficiency of 103dB that can handle 50 watts. There are plenty of compression drivers that are capable of this. Here's some candidates:

JBL 2407H-1 : This one costs about $100. It's a screw on model. The Pyle PH612 costs $20 and it works with this JBL. The JBL and the Pyle combined will get you to 120dB.

JBL M2 : The compression driver from the JBL M2 is not for sale, but it can be found on eBay. A pair of these will set you back close to $1000. This would be my recommendation if you have a large budget and you want to get loud as ****. The JBL probably has the most output possible from a single compression driver in the world right now. BMS is cooking up some things that will compete with it, but right now the JBL M2 is the leader.

I'd think long and hard about using it though; it's not only expensive, it's also not for sale, so getting parts will be tricky. JBL may ask for a serial number to get diaphragms.


If you want to get crazy with the highs, I can show you how to combine compression drivers with a Paraline.

If you don't want to use the Pyle waveguide, I would use an Eric Stevens HLCD with a BMS 4550 ($150 per driver.)


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

tat2bass said:


> What is your budget? I would just go with a set of Hertz HSK165XL's. I have seen and heard them keep up with a 150 substage. But you really don't need your speakers to keep up with that. In reality, you will not be driving around bumping 150 all the time unless you have an absolute amazing electrical system.
> 
> 1. Your electrical probably won't be able to support riding around at 150 for longer than 5-10 min. 2. You wont be able to drive around listening to 150 for longer than 5-10 min. So the majority of the time you will have your substage turned down.
> 
> The hertz above sound amazing and handle gobs of power and get loud. You really only need one set to sound great and it will keep up for those short bursts of when you want to crank it.


Sure, a 6.5" comp set will keep up with a 150db sub stage. They're 93db efficient and it doesn't list if it's 1w/1m or not so they might be 91db. They handle 150w continuous. They have 8mm xmax and they're a little 6.5". There is no way in hell they will even come close, not in the ballpark of keeping up with a 150db sub stage. If you heard them keep up, someone lied about the substage output.

Even if you took xmax out of the equation and crossed them over at 500hz and fed them 300w which is their maximum peak rating, and even if they actually are 93db 1w/1m efficient, they're not going to keep up. Maybe you could hear that there was sound coming out of them... maybe.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

attention all DIYMA,


THERE IS ONLY ONE STAGE!!!!!!!!! stick that up your rear stage!


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

BuickGN said:


> Sure, a 6.5" comp set will keep up with a 150db sub stage. They're 93db efficient and it doesn't list if it's 1w/1m or not so they might be 91db. They handle 150w continuous. They have 8mm xmax and they're a little 6.5". There is no way in hell they will even come close, not in the ballpark of keeping up with a 150db sub stage. If you heard them keep up, someone lied about the substage output.
> 
> Even if you took xmax out of the equation and crossed them over at 500hz and fed them 300w which is their maximum peak rating, and even if they actually are 93db 1w/1m efficient, they're not going to keep up. Maybe you could hear that there was sound coming out of them... maybe.


Midbass is by far the hardest part. If I could figure out a way to install TEN prosound eights, I'd be lucky to hit 130dB at 100hz.

Trying to do it with one or two drivers is just flat-out impossible.

If it were me, I'd use a four door car and try to find locations for as many prosound midbasses as I could possibly fit. The car would literally look like swiss cheese; you'd really need to chop it up to fit all the midbasses.

The highs and the lows are easy in comparison.

Another wacky idea would be to put the midbasses in the floors. You might have to lift the car, but if you could figure out how to fit a neodymium prosound fifteen, you might be able to find one that could handle a thousand watts in short bursts. 









Feed this beast a thousand watts, and you'll get about 120dB at 100hz. It's still not enough output to keep up with a 150dB sub, but it's in the ballpark at least.


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

Lol I'm crazy enough to do 4 10s in each doors that's 16 10s might be a good idea.... But idk if that's necessary because our ears have a slope from 20k to 20 going down like the higher the frequency the louder out ear perceived it at the same volume I think it's called the fletcherson curve or something so maybe 130db midbass is enough?

And what is that about multiple tweeters mean less output? The phasing is that bad?


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## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

all great suggestions. horns would probably be a great start. look into offerings from faital, im using the 4" without a tweeter and i'm pleasantly surprised. I think you could do well focusing your energy on the mid/midbass area as already outlined here.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Based said:


> I looked at the ID horns and the specs say they should be crossed at 800 and 2k... So I'd need tweeters to match the horns and if that's the case I might as well just do a bunch of comp sets.


if you get the full bodies it is 800 hz HPF and the mini is about 1200hz HPF. you dont need tweeters, they play well past 16khz with ease.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

actually the suggestion of a nice one inch driver on a horn is really the best way to go and about the only way i'd go on this. what kind of car are we dealing with? what can you do in the door/floor..the hardest thing to do here is going to be the midbass/lower midrange keeping up.


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## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

If this can be done with 50 McIntosh Amps and sound very good, the only issue that'll make you surrender is Money


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Based said:


> Lol I'm crazy enough to do 4 10s in each doors that's 16 10s might be a good idea.... But idk if that's necessary because our ears have a slope from 20k to 20 going down like the higher the frequency the louder out ear perceived it at the same volume I think it's called the fletcherson curve or something so maybe 130db midbass is enough?
> 
> And what is that about multiple tweeters mean less output? The phasing is that bad?


It is literally impossible to combine tweeters at high frequency.
For instance, 10khz is 1.35" long. *So if you have two tweeters more than 0.67" apart, they interfere with each other.*










Speakers like this JBL work by simply cramming the tweeters extremely close together.

Bottom line : you're welcome to use two tweeters, but it won't be as loud as a single tweeter. Four will be even worse, unless you pack them as tight as JBL does.


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

minbari said:


> if you get the full bodies it is 800 hz HPF and the mini is about 1200hz HPF. you dont need tweeters, they play well past 16khz with ease.


i can attest to that


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

xxx_busa said:


> If this can be done with 50 McIntosh Amps and sound very good, the only issue that'll make you surrender is Money



exactly, now if only that could all fit in a vehicle and sound the same.


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## HiloDB1 (Feb 25, 2011)

theoldguy said:


> attention all DIYMA,
> 
> 
> THERE IS ONLY ONE STAGE!!!!!!!!! stick that up your rear stage!


Please give it a rest already. I'm tired of seeing this in every thread and only from you. Its more annoying than people miss using the term "stage".


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

Patrick Bateman said:


> ignore the haters, this sounds like a fun project.
> 
> First off, *don't bother using more than one tweeter per side.* High frequencies are very very very short. Basically when you use more than one tweeter, *you get LESS output not more.*
> 
> ...


All good ideas here.. I've looked into a similar build. My solution was simple.. Find a sub that can play up into the midbass.. Hence my eventual substage goal was 2 B&C21sw152-4's in a wall. Using a wall to not only gain extra output in the substage, but push the schroeder frequency in the vehicle higher up so that the subs can be behind you and still provide non localized output. Since they can handle 2kw RMS and are 96db/1w/1m with a low inductance, they are VERY capable midbasses, hehe.. That really just leaves the need for some lighter midbass reinforment, to help keep the stage fully up front, say 115-120db capable midbass and then midrange becomes the "harder" part, since I'd still need 130db continous, which is still doable.


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

HiloDB1 said:


> Please give it a rest already. I'm tired of seeing this in every thread and only from you. Its more annoying than people miss using the term "stage".


don't let it bother you man,seriously,


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

T3mpest said:


> All good ideas here.. I've looked into a similar build. My solution was simple.. Find a sub that can play up into the midbass.. Hence my eventual substage goal was 2 B&C21sw152-4's in a wall. Using a wall to not only gain extra output in the substage, but push the schroeder frequency in the vehicle higher up so that the subs can be behind you and still provide non localized output. Since they can handle 2kw RMS and are 96db/1w/1m with a low inductance, they are VERY capable midbasses, hehe.. That really just leaves the need for some lighter midbass reinforment, to help keep the stage fully up front, say 115-120db capable midbass and then midrange becomes the "harder" part, since I'd still need 120db continous, which is still very doable.


That'll work, definitely. I used a midbass array in my car, and the unexpected p.i.t.a. was reliability. Basically it's hard to tell if eight midbasses are functioning properly; if you have a bad driver it's hard to suss it out.

You could probably run those B&Cs up to 500hz; Geddes runs the B&C 15" to 900hz in the Summa.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

HiloDB1 said:


> Please give it a rest already. I'm tired of seeing this in every thread and only from you. Its more annoying than people miss using the term "stage".



so its more annoying to see someone who cares trying to fix the problem than to see all the people carelessly using made up crap terms and no one doing anything about it? Sense, you make none. I will not stop. Thanks for your concern.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

theoldguy said:


> so its more annoying to see someone who cares trying to fix the problem than to see all the people carelessly using made up crap terms and no one doing anything about it? Sense, you make none. I will not stop. Thanks for your concern.


Yes, it is actually


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

well I'm deeply saddened that you guys feel this way. More proof that the DIYMA of today is a fraction of the greatness that it was 10 years ago. This site used to be about better yourself and learning things properly instead of letting incorrect terms and ideas continue to be used. Sorry for trying to keep the spirit of DIYMA alive. But again, I have already declared war against all improper uses of "stage" and wont stop till Im banned, die, or people actually learn.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

theoldguy said:


> attention all DIYMA,
> 
> 
> THERE IS ONLY ONE STAGE!!!!!!!!! stick that up your rear stage!


I hate people that have the grammar skills of a 10yr old or the ones that say dampening instead of damping or the ones that start threads about their dick hitting the toilet water. I hate the ones that have sub stage envy as well. I think that about covers it. 

I'm actually trying to decide on one big amp for my new sub stage or adding another 750/1 to my amp stage.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

theoldguy said:


> well I'm deeply saddened that you guys feel this way. More proof that the DIYMA of today is a fraction of the greatness that it was 10 years ago. This site used to be about better yourself and learning things properly instead of letting incorrect terms and ideas continue to be used. Sorry for trying to keep the spirit of DIYMA alive. But again, I have already declared war against all improper uses of "stage" and wont stop till Im banned, die, or people actually learn.


Dude.. it's just a way to let people know if your talking about your front speakers as a whole, or your subs. Subs stage does sound a bit rediculous but it's really not a big deal. This is an audio forum. Not a grammar forum.. yes I know the "stage" is how the whole system lays out while playing, but there can be more than one meaning to a word


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> Dude.. it's just a way to let people know if your talking about your front speakers as a whole, or your subs. Subs stage does sound a bit rediculous but it's really not a big deal. This is an audio forum. Not a grammar forum.. yes I know the "stage" is how the whole system lays out while playing, but there can be more than one meaning to a word


This site is about learning. Why is it so hard to learn proper terms and uses?


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## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

You're in the wrong place for this. Sign up to caco. Caraudioclassifieds.org
You'll be much happier there


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## csu87 (Jul 9, 2014)

I used to do this so ill help you out some here.

in my 150+ setups and my 155+ setup, even when I had blaring highs and mids, it was all distorted when the bass was actually doing a 150+. Even at 140-145+ it was still distorted.

a 150 vibrates everything, including the speakers. It will distort them no matter how many you have. 

Now if you are just going for a "I have 20 speakers just for my mids and highs" type of system that is more about bragging, then by all means go for it. Just know that its not going to sound good at 150+


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

csu87 said:


> I used to do this so ill help you out some here.
> 
> in my 150+ setups and my 155+ setup, even when I had blaring highs and mids, it was all distorted when the bass was actually doing a 150+. Even at 140-145+ it was still distorted.
> 
> ...


Aren't you on ROE? Your name is familiar.

Yeah I mean if I'm not gonna get quality at 150 I might as well do the 20 speakers for bragging. I have an idea to put the 4 tweets for each side all together in a diamond stuck together. I had this idea a couple hours ago because it will save space on my pillars and it could help with localization bee aide all the tweeters are basically in the same spot. Then I could do the same with 4 3 inch mids in the pillars.


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## csu87 (Jul 9, 2014)

don't think I am, and if I am, haven't posted on there in years. Im on CA.com and CACO.


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

csu87 said:


> don't think I am, and if I am, haven't posted on there in years. Im on CA.com and CACO.


Yeah that's where I know you from I see you on CA everyday lol


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## csu87 (Jul 9, 2014)

Based said:


> Yeah that's where I know you from I see you on CA everyday lol


yeah I don't do much at work except surf the internet


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

I would like some more info on this phasing thing. If I put my speakers like I said in an above post would it help the cancellation?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Based said:


> I would like some more info on this phasing thing. If I put my speakers like I said in an above post would it help the cancellation?


Getting two speakers in phase is straightforward:
Simply keep them within about 1/3rd of a wavelength.

Here's an example:

1) Let's say you have a subwoofer that plays to 80hz. If you want to add a sub and keep it in phase, then the 2nd subwoofer needs to be within 56", or about five feet.
2) Let's say you have a midrange that plays to 2000hz. If you want to add a midrange and keep it in phase, then the 2nd midrange needs to be within 2.25".
3) Let's say you have a tweeter that plays to 20khz. If you want to add a tweeter and keep it in phase, then the 2nd tweeter needs to be within 0.225"(!)

The formula is (speed of sound / wavelength / 3). For instance, if you're doing 1khz, it's (13500 inches per second / 1000hz / 3) = 4.5"

*Basically it is not possible to get two tweeters in phase, or at least not at the top end.*









There's lots of band aids you can try, like curving the array, but the best solution by far is to simply use one big and powerful tweeter. JBL 2407H-1 will get you to 120dB easily, costs $100


Seriously, no need to overthink this, compression drivers were designed for this type of work. I use them for nearly all of my projects, a good compression driver on a good waveguide sounds better than 80% of the dome tweeters out there.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Getting two speakers in phase is straightforward:
> Simply keep them within about 1/3rd of a wavelength.
> 
> Here's an example:
> ...


Problem is car audio SPL guys hear a bunch of $10 bullet tweeters mounted randomly and decide all pro audio is garbage. Either that or they hear 15 horn loaded tweeters mounted in a door, but they are usually cheap piezo drivers thrown into a door with zero eq.. I'd take 4 convential tweets over that too, but no chance in hell I'd take it over a properly done compression driver and horn lol.

Don't worry Patrick, before I'm done I WILL build a car capable of doing 150's on the dash with a SQ substage to keep up lol. I want to do it if only to help educate some of the SPL and groundpoudning demo guys on SQ, from more than just my computer, hehe. I think I can fit that D2 compression driver in my dash as a center channel, but i can't afford 3 of them realistically. Those BMS compression drivers on HLCD's would work for a good left and right, I can def afford that.. From there I just need to plan my midbass/midrange. I plan on walling so I bet I can do 200hz at a steepish slope and not be too bad off. So I'm looking for 300hz up to the horn crossover, probably 1-2khz. Using my kickpanels I can fit some 6.5', I think 8's may just be too big for where they need to go.. High output 6.5 midranges are hard to come by though..

I've looked at the Audax pr170m0 and PHL 1120 , but they are hard to come by, haven't foudn the PHL for sale anywhere, the audax I can still get though.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> Yes, it is actually


x, 1,000,000

derailing a thread because you want to have sematic argument over what word someone uses to describe the sub-stage, is stupid.


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

BuickGN said:


> I hate people that have the grammar skills of a 10yr old or the ones that say dampening instead of damping or the ones that start threads about their dick hitting the toilet water. I hate the ones that have sub stage envy as well. I think that about covers it.
> 
> I'm actually trying to decide on one big amp for my new sub stage or adding another 750/1 to my amp stage.


hey now,the only time my dick hit the toilet bowl water is when i fell in


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

Based said:


> Aren't you on ROE? Your name is familiar.
> 
> Yeah I mean if I'm not gonna get quality at 150 I might as well do the 20 speakers for bragging. I have an idea to put the 4 tweets for each side all together in a diamond stuck together. I had this idea a couple hours ago because it will save space on my pillars and it could help with localization bee aide all the tweeters are basically in the same spot. Then I could do the same with 4 3 inch mids in the pillars.


whatever you decide to do,please post pics,it sounds interesting to me.


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

Ok so Patrick sold me on getting a horn. I'm looking up the JBL that he suggested but it's nowhere to be found...


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## Hoye0017 (Mar 23, 2010)

Based said:


> I looked at the ID horns and the specs say they should be crossed at 800 and 2k... So I'd need tweeters to match the horns and if that's the case I might as well just do a bunch of comp sets.



I think you misunderstood what that spec was telling you. 

It was most likely saying that is the recommended range to set the high pass filter. Horns are the way to go for your goal. 

Patrick referred to them as compression drivers because he builds horns by picking the driver and the waveguides to produce what is commonly known as a horn to everyone else.

The primary reasons are that you can get massive output, good to excellent SQ, and a low xover point that allows you to use 10" woofers for Midbass/midrange duties. Most 10" drivers with the excursion you need may not play high enough to blend well with traditional tweeters crossed over above 2k.


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

to the op,here is something i found on car audio classifieds that you may find to your liking.http://www.caraudioclassifieds.org/forum/build-logs/[email protected]


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

Hoye0017 said:


> I think you misunderstood what that spec was telling you.
> 
> It was most likely saying that is the recommended range to set the high pass filter. Horns are the way to go for your goal.
> 
> ...


so do I still need tweeters? Is that crossover spec for a HPF? As in it plays from 20khz down to 2000 or down to 800.


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## Hoye0017 (Mar 23, 2010)

The last thing you said.

I think most start them around 1k and they play all the way up past 20k. 

Though given your spl goal, I would recommend dialing in a slope with EQ that does not allow full output at 20k.


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

Hoye0017 said:


> The last thing you said.
> 
> I think most start them around 1k and they play all the way up past 20k.
> 
> Though given your spl goal, I would recommend dialing in a slope with EQ that does not allow full output at 20k.


Huh... if that's the case then that's really ****ing sickening... 

Guess I'm getting a pair of horns then... And about 16 10 midbasses....


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Based said:


> Huh... if that's the case then that's really ****ing sickening...
> 
> Guess I'm getting a pair of horns then... And about 16 10 midbasses....


horns take the place of tweeters and midrange. they can play from sometimes down to 800hz up to 16+khz


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> horns take the place of tweeters and midrange. they can play from sometimes down to 800hz up to 16+khz


That's so bad ass dude... What are some horns I should look into? I can start saving for my front stage with next week's paycheck so I wanna be lookin at stuff...


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Here, just copy Mikey's build log...
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/102176-2003-s-10-pro-audio-blowthrough-4.html

Start at post 97. 

Or, take the shortcut and just buy the truck...
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/166030-semi-non-car-audio-2003-s-10-pro-audio-blowthrough.html


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

Are these good horns? They better be for 700$ a pair...

WoofersEtc.com - CD Ultra MH - Image Dynamics HLCD Series Ultra Compact Mini Compression Horns

What about the Beyma CP755Nds?


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Based said:


> Are these good horns? They better be for 700$ a pair...
> 
> WoofersEtc.com - CD Ultra MH - Image Dynamics HLCD Series Ultra Compact Mini Compression Horns
> 
> What about the Beyma CP755Nds?


Those are the eric stevens i was telling you about. ID used to sell them.

Yes, they are phenominal


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

minbari said:


> Those are the eric stevens i was telling you about. ID used to sell them.
> 
> Yes, they are phenominal


Well OK I guess that's my ticket...

What midbass should I get to pair with these? I need them to be able to play just down to 80hz and up to I guess 800.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Look at the beyma 10G40


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

This is getting expensive... I was hoping to spend 1200$ on my front stage for EVERYTHING....  But I guess I gotta pay to play... Substage = 1800$ Electrical = 1200$ sound deadening = 500$ and I guess frontstage = 1500$.........


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Lol, you want to do 150db with sq. I am Surprised $1500 is even enough


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

Well the pair of horns is 700$ the pair of woofers is 400$ then the amps will be about 400$ so yeah. Hopefully that's all the front stage I need...


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

Based said:


> Are these good horns? They better be for 700$ a pair...
> 
> WoofersEtc.com - CD Ultra MH - Image Dynamics HLCD Series Ultra Compact Mini Compression Horns
> 
> What about the Beyma CP755Nds?


pm eric stevens on here if you are going with the horns


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## fenis (Apr 12, 2008)

The only way it is physically possible to achieve 150db midbass and highs is to combine multiple high efficiency speakers/compression drivers within 1/4" wavelength of the highest freq they will cover AND then to combine this coherent/in phase output into one big ass horn. 


There does exist 1 manufacturer that builds speakers like the above. One of them is capable of 150dB continuous output from 70hz to 18khz. Because it behaves as a true point source it has the fidelity of a studio reference monitor. It is no other than the Danley Sound Labs Jericho J3. Check out these amazing specs:

driver complement:
Six 15" woofers
eight 6.5"mids
four Coaxial compression drivers

sensitivity 112 dB SPL average
continuous output Band dependent, 150 dB SPL avg
coverage Pattern 60 by 40
operating frequency range 70 Hz - 18 kHz (+/-3db)
dimensions 30 X 35.6 X 48 inches
weight 432 Lbs










Here is the inside of one of their other Jericho horns (inside of the J3 would be very similar):









So unless you can fit one of these in your dash, 150db mids/highs is impossible!


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## fenis (Apr 12, 2008)

Actually there is another Jericho which would be even louder (I'm guessing ~ 159db continuous) which covers a greater frequency range than the J3. It uses a patented 'layered combiner' to combine 64 compression drivers into one output. Danley still hasn't put it on their website but Pure Groove Systems has:

Caleb | Pure Groove Speaker Systems

Jericho J5 'Caleb'

Coverage Pattern
40 horizontal x 15 vertical
Operating Frequency Range
50 Hz - 18 kHz +/- 3dB - 37 HZ- 24KHZ -10dB
Continuous Output
Peak Output
REALLY LOUD!!
Sensitivity
120+ dB SPL @ 1m
Driver Complement
Low frequency: 12 x 18", mid range: 32 x 6", high frequency: 64 x 1"
Dimensions
120 x 48 x 60 inches
Weight
2,000 Lbs <-- HOLY **** THAT'S HEAVY!


























J5 Caleb on the left:


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Based said:


> This is getting expensive... I was hoping to spend 1200$ on my front stage for EVERYTHING....  But I guess I gotta pay to play... Substage = 1800$ Electrical = 1200$ sound deadening = 500$ and I guess frontstage = 1500$.........


name of the game


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

go buy a set of horns off of Eric for 200 and use some cheaper compression drivers. Your paying a good bit of markup on those premade horns. Even the drivers Eric sells direct now are a better value iirc, but Dec just the bodies and you can shop around for compression drivers.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Based said:


> Ok so Patrick sold me on getting a horn. I'm looking up the JBL that he suggested but it's nowhere to be found...


Here ya go:

JBL 2408H-1 Compression Driver 365011-001X - Speaker Exchange

Looks like the price has basically DOUBLED since I bought mine. Due to that, you might consider a BMS 4540 or BMS 4550:

BMS 4540 1" Lightweight Neodymium High frequency Compression Driver - BMS 4540ND - BMS 4540 1" lightweight neodymium high frequency compression driver. BMS neodymium 4540 neodymium high frequency compression drivers are available here.

What type of vehicle is this going into?

Your choice of horn and compression driver will be largely dictated by what fits. I tend to use neodymium compression drivers because they're less than half the size of ferrite compression drivers, but if your vehicle is massive than that won't be an issue.









Pyle PH612 1" Screw-On Constant Radiation Horn

Here's my "go-to" waveguide, $29 for a pair.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

Based said:


> This is getting expensive... I was hoping to spend 1200$ on my front stage for EVERYTHING....  But I guess I gotta pay to play... Substage = 1800$ Electrical = 1200$ sound deadening = 500$ and I guess frontstage = 1500$.........



well yeah! more stages you have the more expensive it will be. Plan for a solid $500-$1000 per stage to do it right.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

How much for a real basic stage? Like some cinder blocks and a sheet of plywood? I'll provide the sound equipment.


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## autokraftgt (Aug 28, 2012)

How bout a more conventional 2-way or 3-way that has really great sq, gets plenty loud up front, but with subs in the back that can basically turn you into liquid with a turn of the bass knob? You'll have the best of both worlds. Are you planning on doing SPL comps?
realistically, how often will you be cruising around at 150+db?
I think this looks fun


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

autokraftgt said:


> How bout a more conventional 2-way or 3-way that has really great sq, gets plenty loud up front, but with subs in the back that can basically turn you into liquid with a turn of the bass knob? You'll have the best of both worlds. Are you planning on doing SPL comps?
> realistically, how often will you be cruising around at 150+db?
> I think this looks fun


Sounds great if you don't mind blowing up tweeters twice a day. As noted in a couple of my previous posts, *even an inexpensive compression driver can hit 125dB easily.* Put the same amount of power into a dome tweeter and you'll be lucky to hit 105dB.

As for SQ, that's basically dictated by the waveguide not the compression driver. The Pyle PH612 sounds as good as most domes and it's $20. If you can make it fit, it's a no-brainer.

If you can't make it fit, spend a little more and use an Eric Stevens HLCD.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Ok...I am correcting you.




Airforceyooper said:


> As you start getting into spl levels over about 110 maybe 115 db ... someone correct me here ... your ear starts to distort sound due to the limitations of the eardrum. Even if the system had excellent sound at 150 db in the vehicle, you'd have to be so far away from the vehicle to get the spl down to an acceptable level that you'd lose all stereo separation and certain frequencies wouldn't travel that well in the open air so then you'd be losing frequency too ... Man, I just don't see this working out.


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## autokraftgt (Aug 28, 2012)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Sounds great if you don't mind blowing up tweeters twice a day. As noted in a couple of my previous posts, *even an inexpensive compression driver can hit 125dB easily.* Put the same amount of power into a dome tweeter and you'll be lucky to hit 105dB.
> 
> As for SQ, that's basically dictated by the waveguide not the compression driver. The Pyle PH612 sounds as good as most domes and it's $20. If you can make it fit, it's a no-brainer.
> 
> If you can't make it fit, spend a little more and use an Eric Stevens HLCD.


I read your previous posts
My fault, i should have clarified a bit more
I was suggesting the front components reaching much lower than 125db


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

The vehicle is a 2003 F150 Supercrew. I haven't measured anything yet but I will tomorrow. I will PM Eric Stevens tomorrow cuz I am TOO tired right now 

Thank you guys for helping me out and pointing me in the right direction. I really am excited about exploring this horn thing.


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

Get some horns to cover the high and mid.
Toss out a couple of the subs and swap in a pair of pro sound 15" mid bass

Does not sound like you care too much about imaging in the system you are building so i think you would be happier with 15" mid bass in the rear rather than smaller drivers in the doors.

You might even get lucky and make some magic happen with the mid bass in the rear.


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

DonutHands said:


> Get some horns to cover the high and mid.
> Toss out a couple of the subs and swap in a pair of pro sound 15" mid bass
> 
> Does not sound like you care too much about imaging in the system you are building so i think you would be happier with 15" mid bass in the rear rather than smaller drivers in the doors.
> ...


tossing out a couple subs does not compute in my mind bassh34d 4 lif bro


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

I respect your perseverance towards your goal. Quantity over quality is fine if that's what you want. I'm just trying to understand three things.

At the end of all this what sort of music is going to play through this setup?

For me trying to reproduce accurate sound in the car, is the holy grail. Curious what the grail is for someone on the SPL side?

If you're looking at quantity how come you're on a form that professes to be more about quality?

j/k above questions are tongue in cheek. Stay focused on your goal and GL with the build


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

sqnut said:


> I respect your perseverance towards your goal. Quantity over quality is fine if that's what you want. I'm just trying to understand three things.
> 
> At the end of all this what sort of music is going to play through this setup?
> 
> ...


holy grail for spl people (not speaking for everyone tho, just me) is DOING HAIRTRICKS BRO.

ONLY SORT OF MUSIC THAT WILL BE PLAYED THROUGH THIS SETUP IS MUSIC THAT IS EITHER SLOWED DOWN, BASS BOOSTED, OR MOST LIKELY BOTH. BRO.

lol


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

...... yep, low post count. Flagged!!!


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## Mlstrass (Apr 22, 2006)

Based said:


> holy grail for spl people (not speaking for everyone tho, just me) is DOING HAIRTRICKS BRO.
> 
> ONLY SORT OF MUSIC THAT WILL BE PLAYED THROUGH THIS SETUP IS MUSIC THAT IS EITHER SLOWED DOWN, BASS BOOSTED, OR MOST LIKELY BOTH. BRO.
> 
> lol


There is NOOOOOO sound quality of any sort to that type of music, just so you know. 

With that said I would not waste $$$ on expensive horns. 

I've built several vehicles that play "music" at 155-160+dbs and they have mids/tweets that keep up. 

Yes at upper 50's some songs will excite the air so much that vocals can sound distorted. 

Midbass isn't really a concern for the type of music you plan to play, so look into PA midrange speakers and some sort of bullet/supertweeter. 

IMO go with the biggest mids you can fit: 8's, 10's, or 12's. I've done several sets of doors with 4 8's and they keep up easily. 

Glass a few tweeters per A pillar and you're set. I've done line arrays with 8 1/2" soft dome truncated tweeters per side, worked very well and sounded quited good. But now days I only use supertweeters. With some EQ work they can sound quite good. NO the SQ guys wouldn't like them but this is a different realm then what they're into. 

I try to recreate a live rock concert and have done it pretty effectively. I don't worry about TA, stage width/height, etc... but yes I've spent countless hours tweaking xover points/slopes, gain levels, and EQ settings. Running active is a must IMO if you want it to sound decent. 

FYI.......hairtricks are cool the first few times you do them, then they get old fast


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Mlstrass said:


> There is NOOOOOO sound quality of any sort to that type of music, just so you know.
> 
> With that said I would not waste $$$ on expensive horns.
> 
> ...


 no you havent, no one has. a SUPER sensitive 8" with 100 db 1w/1m will only put out 125db MAX at 250 watts! even with 8 of them you are at less than 130 db, add power compression, even less. for (8) to produce 160db of sound they would need over 1000 watts RMS and be over 100 db 1w/1m. physically not posible.


> Midbass isn't really a concern for the type of music you plan to play, so look into PA midrange speakers and some sort of bullet/supertweeter.


 lol, like "music"?


> IMO go with the biggest mids you can fit: 8's, 10's, or 12's. I've done several sets of doors with 4 8's and they keep up easily.
> 
> Glass a few tweeters per A pillar and you're set. I've done line arrays with 8 1/2" soft dome truncated tweeters per side, worked very well and sounded quited good. But now days I only use supertweeters. With some EQ work they can sound quite good. NO the SQ guys wouldn't like them but this is a different realm then what they're into.


 would that be the realm of "music"? not loud noise?


> I try to recreate a live rock concert and have done it pretty effectively. I don't worry about TA, stage width/height, etc... but yes I've spent countless hours tweaking xover points/slopes, gain levels, and EQ settings. Running active is a must IMO if you want it to sound decent.
> 
> FYI.......hairtricks are cool the first few times you do them, then they get old fast


again, no such thing as sound quality at 150 db+ your ears can't perceive it and you will never get enough speakers or power into a car to produce it.

you either want real SQ at normal listening levels or you are an SPL basshead that wants to blow out windows, there is no hybrid.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

minbari said:


> no you havent, no one has. a SUPER sensitive 8" with 100 db 1w/1m will only put out 125db MAX at 250 watts! even with 8 of them you are at less than 130 db, add power compression, even less. for (8) to produce 160db of sound they would need over 1000 watts RMS and be over 100 db 1w/1m. physically not posible. lol, like "music"? would that be the realm of "music"? not loud noise?
> 
> again, no such thing as sound quality at 150 db+ your ears can't perceive it and you will never get enough speakers or power into a car to produce it.
> 
> you either want real SQ at normal listening levels or you are an SPL basshead that wants to blow out windows, there is no hybrid.


You don't need 150db mids and tweet ouptut to keep up with with 150db of bass. Patrick already explained this a few posts ago. Midbass and treble need to be about 20db lower to recreate the track properly, since bass is 10-20db hot on most tracks, even more on rap and the kinds of tracks these guys are playing in the second place.. lastly, 8 8's isnt' even CLOSE to the amount of cone area MLSTRASS has in his fronts. I'll let him give you the rundown, but I've seen it it's a lot. Now if he was demoing at slam when I came by I'd let you know how it sounds, but he wasn't lol.

So what does my setup I'm working on count as? 2 or 3 day frontstage, high end pro audio "SQ" gear.. Probably B&C or BMS midranges powered by a Zed Levithan and a set of pro audio horns, likely BMS or Celestion depending what I can find a good deal on.. Those will be DEEP and wide in the kicks in their own enclosures. Processing via a h701, maybe a h800 at some point. Oh and substage and midbass will be 2 21inch B&C subwoofers in a wall on 4kw. (remember it CAN be turned down) The shrunken cabin should push the schroeder frequency high enough to keep my subsfrom pulling to the back as long as the car is deadened, even if they play into the midbass some... If I do a 3 way it'll be to reinforce the upper midbass to keep the stage up front better, if it needs it. Should do 150 on the dash unless the car is terrible for metering when I want to with highs to keep up and sounds like an awful lot of work and nice gear for just "blowing my windows out".

There are def different levels of output capable of SQ and the idea that the two have to be mutually exclusive is BS. If not all SQ guys would be running 3inch mids in the dash coupled to 5.25 midbasses, possibly tweeterless and a single 12inch shallow mount on less than 500 watts for everything.. WHile many SQ setups are like that many arent' and you can't automatically assume the lower powered system sounds better either.

Also I would agree if he really is JUST playing decaf and crap like that, strong midbass isnt' needed. Decaf slows everything down so it's really the lower midrange that ends up in your midbass area and it doesn't need much reinforment. I played decaf in my last setup that had some great midbass and you really couldn't tell, the original tracks sounded much better for SQ in most cases, only thing that sometimes allowed you to tell it was a SQ car was the imaging on every track and the treble clarity.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

IF you could fit them...and IF you could make the horns big enough, the BMS 4599 compression driver would do over 140 dB of output from about 250-300 hertz up to 6-7k range pretty easy.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> IF you could fit them...and IF you could make the horns big enough, the BMS 4599 compression driver would do over 140 dB of output from about 250-300 hertz up to 6-7k range pretty easy.


That'd be beast, but those are money, IIRC lol.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Here's a spectral analysis of a fairly generic dubstep track. ("Matrix" by Bassnectar.)

In the analysis, I see the following:

1) I need to hit 150dB at 45hz. As I've harped on for a while, *the octave from 20-40hz is all but irrelevant*, the money shot is the octave from 40-80hz, maybe 30-60hz

2) I need to hit 120dB at 1khz. Not easy, *but not impossible.* Four eights will do the job. Or a pair of 12" midranges, like Richard Clark used in his rear quarter panels.

3) I need to hit 110dB at 10khz. *This isn't even difficult.* There are a hundred compression drivers that will do 110dB.



But here's the difficult one:

4) In the octave from 100hz to 200hz, *I need to hit 138dB*
That's the killer right there. In the the octave from 100 to 200hz, we don't have the luxury of cabin gain. One might even argue that one's midbasses should be larger than one's subwoofers! IE, if I want to hit 150dB at 40hz, *I have about twelve dB of "free" output due to cabin gain.* But at 200hz? Not so much.


This is the reason that midbass is often the weakest link, it's the reason you don't see me publishing a lot of midbass projects, it's REALLY hard to get it right.


I've been to a ton of shows, mostly trap and dubstep, where the bass was probably exceeding 140dB. And it didn't sound ANYTHING like an SPL car; it sounded great. But that's probably because the midbass AND the bass was there. Of course, this is probably because the midbass and the bass were covered by the same woofer. IE, it wasn't like a car, where the midbass is the weakest link.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Here's a spectral analysis of a fairly generic dubstep track. ("Matrix" by Bassnectar.)
> 
> In the analysis, I see the following:
> 
> ...


This is very true. I've been in several 150db vehicles and none of them so far have actually felt anything like concert. Because despite their 150db at 40hz when you get up into the midbass, you don't get that same feeling. Yes they can shake you, blow your clothes around even choke you up, but it's not as visceral as a concert, even if it's more violent. That's what I want to be able to recreate in my next setup, at least as close as i can given my own restrictions. 138 is hard, but my B&C midbasses can do it, according to WINISD anywya and there is SOME gain in a car up in the midbass, especially if your car is still under it's schroeder frequency.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

minbari said:


> again, no such thing as sound quality at 150 db+ your ears can't perceive it and you will never get enough speakers or power into a car to produce it.
> 
> you either want real SQ at normal listening levels or you are an SPL basshead that wants to blow out windows, there is no hybrid.


Here's some numbers that might make you change your mind:

In my last post, I illustrated how modern EDM has bass lines that are about 40dB louder than the midrange.

In that scenario, due to the huge disparity between the bassline and the midrange, we only need to hit 110dB in the midrange when the bass is at 150dB(!)

But here's the crazy part:

Let's say you have a stereo in your car, and you like EDM, *and you listen at "reasonable" levels.* Perhaps 100dB? That's not that loud, particularly in a car motoring down the highway.

And let's say you want 10dB of dynamic range. That's not a lot right?

So in this scenario, average SPL in the midrange is 100dB, we have 10dB of dynamics, which means that we need to be capable of hitting 105dB in the mids.

Sounds good right?

In this scenario, WE NEED A SUB CAPABLE OF 145dB!!! This is because EDM is just so freakishly bass heavy.


Honestly, 95% of the world has never heard it reproduced properly. I have an RTA on my phone, and when I go to clubs, 90% of them just high pass the bass. So all you're hearing is the bass harmonics, but not the fundamental. (You can see this on the RTA - the octave from 50-100hz is LOWER than the octave from 100 to 200hz, when it should be much MUCH MUCH louder.)

But every once in a while, literally about once a year, I'll come across a system that can do the bass justice, and when that happens it's like a religious experience for me. I'm seriously a basshead, but good bass is hard to find.


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## Rybaudio (May 23, 2008)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Here's a spectral analysis of a fairly generic dubstep track. ("Matrix" by Bassnectar.)



There's something subtle going on here that is relevant to the numbers you are coming up with. Look at the spacing of the frequency points - as you get higher they get closer together. The frequency spacing is linear which means you are looking at the literal FFT of the data. Typically for this type of analysis you want to look at the FFT put into log-spaced bins - you want the height of the graph to represent power per octave rather than power per frequency.

White noise, for example, has a flat FFT but it's log binned power spectrum increases by +3 dB/oct. There is 3 dB more energy from 100-200 Hz than there is 50-100 Hz. On an RTA you are almost always looking at the latter - white noise would give an increasing curve. Pink noise, OTOH, has an FFT that falls at -3 dB/oct but it's RTA is flat because it has equal power per octave.

Looking at the log-binned spectrum is more suitable than the FFT when determining overall content of a signal and system requirements. For example, if you had music with a flat FFT, you would actually be putting 100 times more energy into the 4-8 kHz band than the 40-80 Hz band since it has 100x the bandwidth. A flat RTA on the other hand would be putting equal energy into those two bands - this sounds flat and also translates into how equipment is used. You don't give your sub and tweeter the same literal bandwidth, but they probably cover a similar number of octaves.

The difference between the two is 3 dB/oct which translates into a 24 dB tilt from 40 Hz up to 10 kHz. There is still some tilt in the sample you listed but it's more like 10-15 dB.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Rybaudio said:


> There's something subtle going on here that is relevant to the numbers you are coming up with. Look at the spacing of the frequency points - as you get higher they get closer together. The frequency spacing is linear which means you are looking at the literal FFT of the data. Typically for this type of analysis you want to look at the FFT put into log-spaced bins - you want the height of the graph to represent power per octave rather than power per frequency.
> 
> <snip>


Half of that went over my head.
I agree that I want to analyze this in "log spaced bins"

But isn't that what I'm doing when I select "Log Frequency" under the "Axis" drop down?


Not being snarky - if I'm doing this wrong please let me know. Doing my analysis with Audacity.









For comparison's sake, here's an older track. This is "One More Time" by Stardust aka Daft Punk, from 1999. In the tracks from fifteen years ago I see a few differences:

1) the bassline is much higher in frequency *and there's a subharmonic below it.* Basically this track will sound fine on just about anything, but if you have some subs they'll add "weight"; the driving force of the track is higher in frequency, compared to modern EDM

2) the bassline isn't as exaggerated as you see with modern EDM; it's definitely louder than the midrange but it's not FORTY decibels louder, it's only about 30 decibels louder

That doesn't sound like a huge difference: we have one bassline at 45hz that's +30dB, we have another one that's +40dB.
But that's a power difference of TEN. To do the first track justice you'd have to go from 1000 watts to 10,0000 watts.


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## Based (Jul 30, 2014)

much sq very knowledge


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## macro (Jun 30, 2014)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Honestly, 95% of the world has never heard it reproduced properly. I have an RTA on my phone, and when I go to clubs, 90% of them just high pass the bass. So all you're hearing is the bass harmonics, but not the fundamental. (You can see this on the RTA - the octave from 50-100hz is LOWER than the octave from 100 to 200hz, when it should be much MUCH MUCH louder.)


Just out of curiosity, what kind of mic are you carrying around with you? I don't know a whole lot about mics, but is it possible that the mic just can't pick up those lower frequencies at that volume? I'm thinking maybe the excursion is a limiting factor like it is for speakers.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

macro said:


> Just out of curiosity, what kind of mic are you carrying around with you? I don't know a whole lot about mics, but is it possible that the mic just can't pick up those lower frequencies at that volume? I'm thinking maybe the excursion is a limiting factor like it is for speakers.


I have the Dayton IMM-6 mic that works on my iPhone, iPad and Nexus 5.

But it seems to work as well as the "stock" mic.

I used to work in the engineering department of one of the phone companies, and the microphones and codes in cel phones are every bit as good as what you find on your computer.

Good mic elements cost less than a $1. Linkwitz lists one on his site that you can buy from Digikey. I've made a few myself but it's a p.i.t.a.

There's been discussions that indicate that some phones high pass the mic in the operating system itself; I haven't been able to confirm that.

In a venue that has "real" output below 100hz you can definitely feel a difference; it's the type of bass that sucks the air out of your lungs and moves the walls. You don't need a mic to know that it's there, but it's fun to measure the rooms that suck.









Also, when a room has "real" bass the subs are impossible to miss; it takes a WALL of subwoofers to produce 140dB at 40hz in a club. A lot of clubs that I've been to have no subwoofers whatsoever, they're literally using two-way speakers to produce the entire frequency range.




TLDR : if a club or concert has real bass you'll see a wall of subwoofers. If some of those subs are facing backwards, that's a bonus, because it's probably a cardioid. If you don't see a wall of subs there won't be bass, but you can check it with an RTA on your phone.


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## macro (Jun 30, 2014)

This guy ^^^. I haven't been here long, but I'm starting to feel like you know everything these is to know about sound. Love reading your posts. This whole thread has actually been a good read.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

macro said:


> This guy ^^^. I haven't been here long, but I'm starting to feel like you know everything these is to know about sound. Love reading your posts. This whole thread has actually been a good read.


Nah there's tons of smart guys here. I wish some of the heavyweights from diyaudio posted here. Guys like Danley, Geddes and Smith run rings around me.


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## MasterMod (Jul 14, 2011)

For reference, the setup in my previous vehicle was:

Single custom 15 (did 148.6 at 34hz underpowered...only had a single red top at the time)
4x Crescendo PWX-6 8-ohm
2x Crescendo FT-1 4-ohm

Each pair of mids was on it's own channel, with each tweet to it's own channel, running active, powered by a RF P450.4.


Contrary to what most people would normally think...I rolled around with the system up almost every time I was in the car. The consensus between everyone that listened to it was that was the bass was nuts...the front stage was insane.


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## Rybaudio (May 23, 2008)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Half of that went over my head.
> I agree that I want to analyze this in "log spaced bins"
> 
> But isn't that what I'm doing when I select "Log Frequency" under the "Axis" drop down?
> ...



It appears that "Log Frequency" means a logarithmic frequency axis, which is not the same thing. Let me try to explain this from the fundamentals.

What does it mean exactly to find the spectrum of a signal? What exactly are you looking at when you see a number like -40 dB at a given frequency on the graph?

The underlying principle is that you can take any signal and break it down into a sum of sine waves of different frequencies (a Fourier series). It looks something like

song = c1*(1 Hz wave) + c2*(2 Hz wave) + c3*(3 Hz wave) + ...

The c1, c2, c3, etc are numbers that give the amplitudes of each frequency. Those numbers are what you see on the graph, converted into dB (e.g. 20log(|c1|)). The thing is, when you sample discretely and look at this decomposition, the frequencies of the waves are spaced linearly (5 Hz, 10 Hz, 15 Hz, 20 Hz, etc). The exact frequency spacing is not arbitrary or chosen but is related to the sampling increment. The process of finding these coefficients is generally called the Fourier transform, and the specific algorithm that is used for discrete data on computers is the Fast Fourier Transform (FFT).

The problem comes when you are naturally working with log spaced frequencies like we do in audio. Suppose our frequency spacing is 5 Hz. Then if we compare the terms in the series above for the octave 40-80 Hz and 4-8 kHz those terms look like:

c40*(40 Hz wave) + c45*(45 Hz) + c50*(50 Hz) + ... + c80*(80 Hz) 

^ 9 total terms or waves added up

c4000*(4000 Hz) + c4005*(4005 Hz) + c4010*(4010 Hz) + ... + c8000*(8000 Hz) 

^ 801 waves added up

The total energy in a given frequency band is the sum of the energies of each of those waves. So if each of the waves had the same amplitude (FFT was flat on your analyzer), the octave 4k-8k would have 100x the energy since it has 100x waves.

This is why we typically "bin" the results of an FFT, which is just choosing logarithmic spaced frequency intervals (bins) and summing the energies of the waves within that bin. If we chose 1 octave wide bins we might have a bin 40-80 Hz and another up higher 4-8 kHz. The display would then show the total energy of the 9 waves from 40 to 80 (add the energies) as the 40-80 output and for the 4-8 kHz octave it would show the total energy of all 801 waves within that range added up. That shows the total energy in the 40-80 octave and the total energy in the 4k-8k octave which is more meaningful for our purposes. This is usually what you see on an RTA, but the bins are typically smaller like 1/24 octave to give some resolution.

The difference between the two is 3 dB/oct, so you can convert but you have to be aware of what you are looking at.

Hope that helps!


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