# mini amps worth it?



## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

I see kenwood clarion alpine rockfart and few ebay brands have those mini 4 channel amps 
as I understand they are all digital amps. and all around 40-60watt rms

seems like a good inexpensive upgrade but what can I expect about sound quality?

is it gonna be same as built in amp better or worse?


----------



## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

the soundstream ones are really nice, get a little warm stuffed up into the dash of a jeep but power the whole system just fine and sound good doing it..plus its 100/channel


----------



## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

I know they make sound and all. 
I want to know if the sound quality is there, if its at least somewhat better than buil tin amp. anyone done tests on them ? all I see on google is reviews and no tests


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

we sell a lot of them at my new job, and theyre not that special. they only but out like 40 watts at 4 ohms. good for motorcycles though.


----------



## 1styearsi (Aug 13, 2012)

fuzzysig said:


> I see kenwood clarion alpine rockfart and few ebay brands have those mini 4 channel amps
> as I understand they are all digital amps. and all around 40-60watt rms
> 
> seems like a good inexpensive upgrade but what can I expect about sound quality?
> ...


rockfart??? hay now watch you mouth.....
the nvx mini 4 channel is hard to come buy.
NVX MVPA1 Micro V 300W RMS Mono Car Amp with Small Footprint | eBay
i have seen these reviews but where do you get these things in america?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1rZ9v7Dp4I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL6jENb0iHQ


----------



## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

I've seen these installed on motorcycles... As far as I know, that is the targeted market for these...


----------



## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

Mini amps are good for running tweeters and mids.


----------



## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

Are they?


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

If they only require 40 watts, then sure


----------



## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

so is the quality at least as good as built in amp? or worse


----------



## Donanon (Sep 13, 2013)

I installed a Soundstream PN4.520D mini amp in my wifes car powering (bridged) a set of JBL MS-52C comps and I was pleasantly surprised at how good it sounded. IIRC we paid circa $100 shipped.

Forgot to mention that IMO this amp sounds better than the stock amp in my wifes Toyota.


D.


----------



## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

Well for me, I used an little Eclipse 1412. I added it on to an already installed system. Extremely convenient. Because of it's low power requirements I was able to tap in to existing wiring and it fit right in the armrest. It sounded the same as any other clean power source I used. As far as build quality, I have had a mini amp running my garage systems for years. I would expect that if a company is going to put it's name on it they will hold it to the same good/bad standards as the rest of their products. They make high quality small parts too! It's up to the company if they use them.


----------



## Ultimateherts (Nov 13, 2006)

Theslaking said:


> Well for me, I used an little Eclipse 1412. I added it on to an already installed system. Extremely convenient. Because of it's low power requirements I was able to tap in to existing wiring and it fit right in the armrest. It sounded the same as any other clean power source I used. As far as build quality, I have had a mini amp running my garage systems for years. I would expect that if a company is going to put it's name on it they will hold it to the same good/bad standards as the rest of their products. They make high quality small parts too! It's up to the company if they use them.


1) The newer mini amps are class d.

2) No real facts listed here.

3) Tapping into existing wiring is not a good idea as the fuse can blow. 

What intrigues me the most is that the upper level Kenwood and Clarion mini amps say that they can be bridged! I mean sure they are not the cheapest solutions, but for size you could run one per midbass and have a lot of power in a small space!


----------



## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

He didn't ask about ask about newer vs older. Class d rating has no bearing on how well the amp is built. He asked when they shrink them does it lose quality in the downsizing. And how do you know I didn't tap into my existing 8awg wire that only had a 2-5 amp draw on it? Which is what I did. But if I was to add a full size amp with a much higher potential draw( whether I was using or not) I would have had to run additional wires. What I did was convenient and safe. 

And the FACT is you should just answer someone's question instead worrying about correcting someone else's opinions and experiences. 

I didn't cite anyone's research, or compile a list of trial and error which is how the masses turn theory in to fact. I shared what has worked for me. He didn't care if I used fuses. He wants to know if small amps hold up.

The Fact is I opened my statement with "For me" indicating my experience. Which you know nothing about.


----------



## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

I've been running a Rockford PBR300X4 for the better part of a year. 

It's capable of more than 75RMSx4, but it's not 2 ohm stable or bridgeable, though 75RMS should be plenty for "most". 

Many have claimed they run a bit warm, but I can't comment on that so much, mine is tucked up under the dash in front of my center console behind interior paneling in my 99' Cavalier, so I'm sure it's not got a lot of air flow, but at the same time, I can't easily get to it to feel if it's that hot or not. 

Build quality seems very good, SQ, well, I don't so much blame the amp, but the speakers I'm using. It's powering four Kicker CS65 speakers. I've tinkered with the EQ but for the life of me, I just can't get them to sound all that great. There are a few songs that sound pretty decent, but most just don't sound they way I feel they should.

As for comparing it to the internal amplifier of my Sony HU, sadly, I never used the Sony's internal amp for the Kickers for an A/B comparison.


----------



## Ultimateherts (Nov 13, 2006)

Theslaking said:


> He didn't ask about ask about newer vs older. Class d rating has no bearing on how well the amp is built. He asked when they shrink them does it lose quality in the downsizing. And how do you know I didn't tap into my existing 8awg wire that only had a 2-5 amp draw on it? Which is what I did. But if I was to add a full size amp with a much higher potential draw( whether I was using or not) I would have had to run additional wires. What I did was convenient and safe.
> 
> And the FACT is you should just answer someone's question instead worrying about correcting someone else's opinions and experiences.
> 
> ...


And the fact is splicing into areas that are not intended to used that way will blow fuses. Then we'll have a new thread called "Why aren't my amps turning on." Also considering all the recent threads and basically all the new mini amplifiers being class d we can infer the op is talking about just these amplifiers. The op even states that he knew all the Clarion and Kenwood on eBay were digital!


----------



## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

Ultimateherts said:


> And the fact is splicing into areas that are not intended to used that way will blow fuses. Then we'll have a new thread called "Why aren't my amps turning on." Also considering all the recent threads and basically all the new mini amplifiers being class d we can infer the op is talking about just these amplifiers. The op even states that he knew all the Clarion and Kenwood on eBay were digital!


Your right that he likely wanted to know about those eBay amps he mentioned. I just gave input from my experience with mini amps. My situation showed me that being "mini" has no effect on build quality and the sq is good. That is pertinent to what he asked. 

Even in your last post you are still incorrectly worried about my old install. I had a FUSED distribution block which was fed by a 8awg lead. I only had a t.v. and usb port connected to it. I added the mini amp to an open port on the distribution block. FYI- Distribution block are designed to send power to multiple things safely. The "fused" in fused distribution means it has protection. The fuse on the amp lead also helps prevent the "Why aren't my amps turning on" thread. Since the OP did not ask how I had my old mini amp wired I assumed he didn't want to know. If you wanted to know you should just have asked me.

The irony here is I just made an ass of myself on this very forum by assuming what someone else was using. I corrected him, he then in turn corrected me politely, without being a snob. I thanked him and learned something to boot.


----------



## Ultimateherts (Nov 13, 2006)

Theslaking said:


> If you wanted to know you should just have asked me.
> The irony here is I just made an ass of myself on this very forum by assuming what someone else was using. I corrected him, he then in turn corrected me politely, without being a snob. I thanked him and learned something to boot.


That was a very cute way of saying I was a jerk!


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Lycancatt said:


> the soundstream ones are really nice, get a little warm stuffed up into the dash of a jeep but power the whole system just fine and sound good doing it..plus its 100/channel


Agreed.
I am running the Soundstream Stealths in the Honda Fit.

http://soundstream.com/store/car-audio/amplifiers/stealth.html


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

Cool well i guess ill give it a try.
Im eyeballing the pioneer mini amp.
Anyone can steer my towards any other one by specs/bang for the buck?
I was gonna try kenwood but their sound is unimpressive and cold.


----------



## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

it's hard to equate value with size, and it's harder to imagine a small amp making the same quality for less money and in much less space.

but this is happening, it's real and even if psychologically, you want it not to be true so you can still use those big surfboards and take up all the luggage space with equipment, the slights and the ignorance will eventually catch up.

this audio path has been traveled before, it's just not necessary that an amp has to absorb a lot of the energy going through it to make good sound, and the more efficient they can get their circuits, the less heat is going to make it to heat sinks and the smaller the amp gets.

even class AB amps today are half the size or smaller, compared to some of the current hogs traveling through time in closets and rarely setting into large footprint amp racks anymore...


papa's got a brand new bag, and it's nano-dyn-O-MITE...


----------



## Donanon (Sep 13, 2013)

"I was gonna try kenwood but their sound is unimpressive and cold."

Were these the Class D Kenwood amps? I'd be interested in knowing more about your opinions on these. Mind posting which Kenwood's you've heard?

Thanks,


D.


----------



## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

Kenwood in general has a very cold sound. 
I have x4r 4 channel amp 
Compared to alpine and pioneer it is very digital.


If anyone remembers cowon D2 poryable player. how bad it sounded and how good it looked on paper.


----------



## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

fuzzysig said:


> Kenwood in general has a very cold sound.
> I have x4r 4 channel amp
> Compared to alpine and pioneer it is very digital.
> 
> ...



I think the x4r sounded better than the pdx I replaced. The kenwood digital amps sound great but not sure about the minis in the pictures. Couldnt tell the difference between it and a good os zapco studio a/b. PDX I was dissapointed with.


----------



## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

Anyone try the Nakamichi ones? I saw a few sitting at a shop the other day, I forgot to ask about them but if they are Nak I'd expect them to be pretty decent.


----------



## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Im curious about the DLS ones

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DLS-CC-44-R...561?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25a07e6f61


----------



## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

vwdave said:


> Anyone try the Nakamichi ones? I saw a few sitting at a shop the other day, I forgot to ask about them but if they are Nak I'd expect them to be pretty decent.


Nak is no longer high end sad to say. They may be decent but def not the level of the old zed nak amps


----------



## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Reminder that class D and digital have no relationship.

Class D is the topology.
Digital means that there is an unboard ADC (analogue to digital converter) and a DAC (digital to analog converter) with presumably some kind of processing in between.


----------



## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

Does anyone even test these new car audio products or people just belive what manufacturer says?


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

fuzzysig said:


> Does anyone even test these new car audio products or people just belive what manufacturer says?


What kind of test are you looking for? Derek BigDWiz tested one of the mini Kenwoods on his amp dyno and it did well in terms of power output. That doesn't tell you anything about how the amp actually sounds installed. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99tiyWuuAGM


----------



## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

My JL Audio HX280/4 mini-amp showing up tomorrow  (Bridging it for mid-bass duty.)


----------



## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Many of these mini amps have been tested for power output, but that's about it.


----------



## Silvercoat (Dec 5, 2013)

I have mainly listened to and tried the Kenwood KAC-M1804 and the Alpine KTP-445A and the 445U. My impressions were that the Kenwood sounded a bit more natural, while the Alpine was a bit more harsh. The Alpine defiantly sounded worse on high level input even with proper gain setting (Used a SMD DD-1)

I would say these would be an upgrade to the integrated amps in headunits or most basic factory amplifiers.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I have also personally "tuned" a truck with the Kenwood KAC-M1804 from the original post. The owner came to me because he was not pleased with the sound of the system after he had performed his own install. "Tuned" is in quotes because all I had available was the on board processing of a midrange Kenwood DD. The product used in the install was nothing spectacular and there was no subwoofer. 

Other than a lack of dynamics, I found nothing objectionable about the amp. There was no noticeable noise and the truck owner (not a big car audio guy) was very pleased with the results of the tune.


----------



## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

as long as it doesnt sound worse than integrated amp im cool

I still cant find any info about the rca vs internal amp frequwncy range
they used to list internal amp frequency range 20hz-16khz and rca 20hz-20khz
Now theres nothing that says if internal amp is limited in high range like it was 10 years ago or did they get better?


----------



## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

I have installed quite a few of these small form factor multi-channel amps. The Kenwood M1804 and M3004, Alpine 445U, JL HX280/4, Clarion XC1410 and the Kicker PXA3004. My favorite was the Kicker and my least favorite was the Kenwood M1804. I wasn't impressed with the sound quality out of any of them, but some were better than others. The Kicker was pretty solid in that respect. Honestly, I've installed 5X as many 445Us as all the others and I think it sounds the worst. lol Does rated power though and it's cheap.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I bought the 4ch PPI Atom mini amp on a curiosity and it sounded pretty bad. Then someone on here did an objective test on the mono atom and it wasn't pretty at all. In other words, buyer beware on the lower priced mini amps. I'll stick with my smaller profile a/b amps with forced cooling.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

fuzzysig said:


> as long as it doesnt sound worse than integrated amp im cool
> 
> I still cant find any info about the rca vs internal amp frequwncy range
> they used to list internal amp frequency range 20hz-16khz and rca 20hz-20khz
> Now theres nothing that says if internal amp is limited in high range like it was 10 years ago or did they get better?


You're not going to find any more information than Kenwood's stated +0/-1 dB 20 Hz - 20 kHz. 

With a negligible price difference between the two, I would probably opt for the KAC-M3004 rather than the KAC-M1804.


----------



## jrock645 (Apr 15, 2015)

I have that exact Kenwood amp as part of my recent expansion. I'm using it entirely for smaller, supplemental speakers. Prob not advisable to use it for primary drivers


----------



## xconcepts (May 17, 2011)

I was looking at the JL series but I can't find any that put out enough power for sub


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

xconcepts said:


> I was looking at the JL series but I can't find any that put out enough power for sub


You can always get mini amp for front stage and a monoblock for sub duty.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

jrock645 said:


> I have that exact Kenwood amp as part of my recent expansion. I'm using it entirely for smaller, supplemental speakers. Prob not advisable to use it for primary drivers


Which one and why?


----------



## Silvercoat (Dec 5, 2013)

I know that PAS Mag has reviewed a few of them and seem decent enough in their review. I think ultimately it comes down to clean power. Making an amp that is 4 times smaller than something else and also the same price range, something has to give.

Would I use them in an SQ setup, probably not.
Are they good enough for 85% of the population looking for a bit better sound, absolutely.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Silvercoat said:


> I know that PAS Mag has reviewed a few of them and seem decent enough in their review. I think ultimately it comes down to clean power. Making an amp that is 4 times smaller than something else and also the same price range, something has to give.
> 
> Would I use them in an SQ setup, probably not.
> Are they good enough for 85% of the population looking for a bit better sound, absolutely.


That's my take on it. Sure a mini amp is probably fine to add extra volume to a deck plus 4 setup and probably rearfill in an sq setup that is barely audible to begin with. In my opinion someone will never know what they're missing unless they have a high quality a/b or d amp to compare the mini amp to. In this case ignorance is truly bliss. And the more detailed sounding the speakers the more obvious dirty power will be.


----------



## bugsplat (Nov 7, 2014)

kyheng said:


> You can always get mini amp for front stage and a monoblock for sub duty.


Similar to what I did. I really don't need my 3" drivers up front belting out +100watts. My mids and subs are run by 2 A/B amps. For the record I'm running a Class-D and like it.

I played around with a VERY cheap ebay 4x75w amp in my car for a bit. Think I paid $25. Anyway it did what it said and amplified the sound. Doubt it hit its 75 watt mark but 40w was made and sounded fine with a little DSP magic applied. So why was it so cheap if it did the same? Is the future <$30 amps for all? the answer at least today is parts quality. Picked up a whine after a few months and could not get it to go away. Dumped all kinds of time trying to fix it but it it still had a faint whine when it heated up after a min. Only explanation I could find was moisture evaporation from the capacitors that would change their resistance in the Texas heat. Who knows if its true. Sure the amp was cheap but the time spent to install it, troubleshoot it, remove it, and replace it was not worth $25. 

Cheap amps will do the trick at least for a while.


----------



## omnibus (Feb 20, 2015)

diy.phil said:


> My JL Audio HX280/4 mini-amp showing up tomorrow  (Bridging it for mid-bass duty.)


Been wanting one of those myself for my arcade cabinet I'm working on which will feature JL Audio gear . I have a couple of XD series amps and I hear the HX's are very similar in SQ but size alone just isn't enough justification to spend over $200 when I could use my huge ass Slash amp in it instead, just takes up more room is all.



Hillbilly SQ said:


> That's my take on it. Sure a mini amp is probably fine to add extra volume to a deck plus 4 setup and probably rearfill in an sq setup that is barely audible to begin with. In my opinion someone will never know what they're missing unless they have a high quality a/b or d amp to compare the mini amp to. In this case ignorance is truly bliss. And the more detailed sounding the speakers the more obvious dirty power will be.


I did a direct comparison with Class a/b amps and D amps on my JL C5 components. I basically just swapped out amps. I tested my old school RF Punch 60ix which is class A/B, my JL Audio Slash A/B amp against some of my Class D smaller amps stuff...JL XD, Alpine MRV, Focal FD 2.3

The only real difference I noticed was that the older Class A/B amps were a little noisy when no sound was playing....a higher pitched hiss noise through the tweeters that reminded me of cassette tape hiss. But I don't claim to have golden ears or anything as I'm probably the majority that would be happy with the SQ of most any modern amplifier...which means I won't be wasting my money on the thought of SQ alone.

I don't really think audio is a case of ignorance is bliss, but more of the fact that we all hear and notice different things. That's why people say "what" all the time even though they heard you...they just weren't really listening.


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

bugsplat said:


> Similar to what I did. I really don't need my 3" drivers up front belting out +100watts. My mids and subs are run by 2 A/B amps. For the record I'm running a Class-D and like it.
> 
> I played around with a VERY cheap ebay 4x75w amp in my car for a bit. Think I paid $25. Anyway it did what it said and amplified the sound. Doubt it hit its 75 watt mark but 40w was made and sounded fine with a little DSP magic applied. So why was it so cheap if it did the same? Is the future <$30 amps for all? the answer at least today is parts quality. Picked up a whine after a few months and could not get it to go away. Dumped all kinds of time trying to fix it but it it still had a faint whine when it heated up after a min. Only explanation I could find was moisture evaporation from the capacitors that would change their resistance in the Texas heat. Who knows if its true. Sure the amp was cheap but the time spent to install it, troubleshoot it, remove it, and replace it was not worth $25.
> 
> Cheap amps will do the trick at least for a while.


That's cheap, mine were $150 but 6 channels, enough to power my 3-way front


----------



## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

omnibus said:


> Been wanting one of those myself for my arcade cabinet I'm working on which will feature JL Audio gear . I have a couple of XD series amps and I hear the HX's are very similar in SQ but size alone just isn't enough justification to spend over $200 when I could use my huge ass Slash amp in it instead, just takes up more room is all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ha ha you know I actually wanted to get an JL XD200/2 for the midbass but then decided I didn't want to place it in a corner behind a panel (something else is going there). So I looked around and the small Focal looks good too but figured I should just stick with JL since they make good stuff. 

Yesterday the little JL arrived and the boss at home got to it before I got home (looking for her KitchenAid accessory stuff, it was the other package lol). She thought it cost a fortune (heavy for the small size, didn't see an invoice in the box) and said I should tell her and get her another purse at the same time before I get my toys!! So I said it's only a hundred plus (on sale and I actually have club points at crutchfield to waste).

Anyways I just finished stuffing it into the computer/drawing and one of these days/weekends i'll have to modify/cut some MDF to make a new box and wire it up.


----------



## MB2008LTZ (Oct 13, 2012)

I have been using a knockoff made in some foreign country 4 channel mini amp on my atv for a few years with no problems...Running a set of cheap pioneer components with an in-line cap for the tweeters active (sort of)....one channel for each speaker. Came with a wired volume controller. Never had a problem and I get it all muddy and wet when I wash my atv.


----------



## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

1styearsi said:


> rockfart??? hay now watch you mouth.....
> the nvx mini 4 channel is hard to come buy.
> NVX MVPA1 Micro V 300W RMS Mono Car Amp with Small Footprint | eBay
> i have seen these reviews but where do you get these things in america?
> ...


Sonic Electronix carries them. I like the NVX stuff.


----------



## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

so are these tiny amps class D or tripath design?
because even class D amps were massive compared to early tripath based amps.

tripath started to gain some ground and suddenly went under just like many other great small companies(aureal vortex who patented the 3d technology that is the base of creative 3d sound.. I followed aureal battle with creative and their unfortunate end then within a year creative came around with a brand new 3D engine at first they didn't even change the 3d settings menu they just rebadged aureal vortex 3d menu lol

so after tripath went down suddenly the "class D" amps shrunk in size as well.


----------



## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

I think I got carried away
I'm still butthurt about aureal vortex being eaten by creative lol

I even had 4 brand new sq3500 sound cards after they went out of business...
then sold them since creative/Microsoft blocked and removed all the drivers in next update.


----------



## EricP72 (Mar 23, 2008)

I'm interested in which amp has more dynamics the Kenwood kac-m3004 or the soundstream stealth 4 channel amp. I can use one to power my fatial wideband and a pair of Dayton amt tweeters is they can perform. I know in a correspondence with whiz, he stated that the Kenwood puts out clean power. For 100 new...and the size...if this is true I can prob use another one bridge for my intimd8tr midbass drivers


----------



## EricP72 (Mar 23, 2008)

Actually...I wish someone with known good ears could do a review and comparison with the Kenwood/somewhere/pioneer/kicker etc and run them as full range, with mids and highs, and then bridge pushing a 10" sub.


----------



## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

I have good ears but not a good wallet to afford to buy those amps
but i can use my car as a reference if anyone wants to meet up in seattle area and have a coffee and listen to them on same system
that way its not just one set of ears but 4-5 sets
I just installed alpine spx pro in my fronts
And running off built in amp
I also have a decent amount of cd quality and few audiophile reference recordingsfrom sacd


----------



## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

Im gonna probably buy one of the amps and you bring the others and we can swap them and listen


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I dissected tiny pioneer and it has pathetic power supply.
Sounded ****ty. Tripath is class D just patented differently.

IRS2092 based class D is quite lovely.... I designed a couple, so far liking them.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Which Pioneer Victor? Model numbers help.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

rton20s said:


> Which Pioneer Victor? Model numbers help.


GM-D1004


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

rton20s said:


> Which Pioneer Victor? Model numbers help.


PRS-D800, 3 will be the size of A4 paper.
Or another is the DEH-P01(Japanese version of P99)'s mini amp. Been using it for quite some time, SQ not bad for its size.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

kyheng said:


> PRS-D800, 3 will be the size of A4 paper.
> Or another is the DEH-P01(Japanese version of P99)'s mini amp. Been using it for quite some time, SQ not bad for its size.


Still twice as big as GM-D1004


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Did you expect much out of the GM-D1004? The real question is, how does it compare to the Kenwood, Clarion and Alpine power pack equivalents? Isn't that what the amp is meant to compete with? I would bet that all of those would be pretty similar.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

rton20s said:


> Did you expect much out of the GM-D1004? The real question is, how does it compare to the Kenwood, Clarion and Alpine power pack equivalents? Isn't that what the amp is meant to compete with? I would bet that all of those would be pretty similar.


Haven`t get into guts of those so there is no comment,although I wouldn`t expect much being familiar with modern D class circuitry .Out of smallest amps Mosconi pico being on cutting edge of engineering ( until of course i release mine)

power pack is what they are slight bump in power over stock chip amps producing 8W-15W despite some ridiculous statements some OEM systems claim to make.


----------



## motomech (Nov 12, 2014)

inside kenwood m3004


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

motomech said:


> inside kenwood m3004


Thanks, can you make close ups?


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

Victor_inox said:


> Still twice as big as GM-D1004


My bad, but I doubt the SQ on the newer 4 channel amp


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

kyheng said:


> My bad, but I doubt the SQ on the newer 4 channel amp


Amplifier ability to play dynamically depends on power supply ability to provide current desired by amplifier circuit. problem with ALL modern amplifiers is that even power supplies switching at crazy frequencies not able to provide that.
typical switching frequency of an power supply in modern class D is 30-50KHz.
Amplifier itself switching at 300-400. I have a stable circuit that switches from 800KhZ to 1.2MHz. Amplifiers getting smaller and more importantly more efficient. That`s the future. 12V is not the best to start working with. 
High voltage batteries in Hybrids and electric cars would be much better for powering 95% efficiency amplifiers. My latest circuit (patent pending) raise that bar to 96%. 
Most likely that will be sold to one of the big players as I have no way flooding market by myself, made in quantities I`m able to produce price would be prohibitive.


----------



## motomech (Nov 12, 2014)




----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

Victor_inox said:


> Amplifier ability to play dynamically depends on power supply ability to provide current desired by amplifier circuit. problem with ALL modern amplifiers is that even power supplies switching at crazy frequencies not able to provide that.
> typical switching frequency of an power supply in modern class D is 30-50KHz.
> Amplifier itself switching at 300-400. I have a stable circuit that switches from 800KhZ to 1.2MHz. Amplifiers getting smaller and more importantly more efficient. That`s the future. 12V is not the best to start working with.
> High voltage batteries in Hybrids and electric cars would be much better for powering 95% efficiency amplifiers. My latest circuit (patent pending) raise that bar to 96%.
> Most likely that will be sold to one of the big players as I have no way flooding market by myself, made in quantities I`m able to produce price would be prohibitive.


Wow, you can make your own amps
Anyway, for the time being, I'm sure 12V-14V still be the main power in car electrical system, not all will opt for hybrid cars.
Still, I prefer class AB amps for front stage(please don't start this debate again). That's why the real Pioneer mini amp I'm still keeping it


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I even prefer an a/b amp for the sub. Just seem to be less "bonky" sounding than most low-middle of the road class d amps. I haven't used any of the new higher end fullrange d amps myself but have heard several great systems with the JL HD, a couple with the new PDX amps (I think), and a great one with the Arc xdi 5ch. The way I look at it, as long as you have a good charging system and real estate for mounting, why not run what you want and be done with it?


----------



## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

If anybody here is actually curious about the Kenwood amp, check this out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99tiyWuuAGM

Yeah, I'd say these mini amps are for real.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

sicride said:


> If anybody here is actually curious about the Kenwood amp, check this out.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99tiyWuuAGM
> 
> Yeah, I'd say these mini amps are for real.



Question is do you trust that AD-1? what distortion those light blinking at?


----------



## Viggen (May 2, 2011)

Impressive numbers... Crazy how small these thing are. 

I can't decide if it's worth trying these types of amps for my Miata, considering a 3 way active setup and small light amps would be perfect for this car. I just worry how they sound


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Viggen said:


> Impressive numbers... Crazy how small these thing are.
> 
> I can't decide if it's worth trying these types of amps for my Miata, considering a 3 way active setup and small light amps would be perfect for this car. I just worry how they sound


 they sounds just fine go for it.


----------



## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

You're right Victor, don't know what distortion level they are lighting up at. Lets say it's off by 15% for clean output... It's still putting out over 500 watts! That's pretty cool for that tiny thing.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

sicride said:


> You're right Victor, don't know what distortion level they are lighting up at. Lets say it's off by 15% for clean output... It's still putting out over 500 watts! That's pretty cool for that tiny thing.


Distortion curve is not linear,let`s say it makes 50W at 1% distortion but 52W% at 10%. at 600W it could be 40%.
and power supply capacity reached at 100W.
With 30A fuse theoretical power at 14.4V is 432W, subtract 5-10% inevitable losses and you have 400 still very nice for such small unit.


----------



## slowhatch (Nov 29, 2014)

fuzzysig said:


> I have good ears but not a good wallet to afford to buy those amps
> but i can use my car as a reference if anyone wants to meet up in seattle area and have a coffee and listen to them on same system
> that way its not just one set of ears but 4-5 sets
> I just installed alpine spx pro in my fronts
> ...


I'd be willing to let you test against one of my amps. PM sent as well.


----------



## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

which amp you have slowhatch?


----------



## slowhatch (Nov 29, 2014)

Well, I don't currently have a mini amp, I was thinking you could test a mini vs one of my HDs. I know apples to oranges but it might give you some insights into the sound quality and power differences. FWIW, I did run one of the inline power packs from alpine and I liked it. I swapped it out for a larger alpine Mrv300 and couldn't tell any difference. Take that as you will. I'm sure there are some differences between high end and low end amps but I believe that people are hearing the tune more then the amp(generally speaking). I don't think it's very likely that you can A B two amps and not have tuning be a factor that is not accounted for. Just my opinion. Let me know if you'd like to meet up. I love messing around with this stuff. Dave.


----------



## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Weigel21 said:


> I've been running a Rockford PBR300X4 for the better part of a year..


I have heard these amps used with RF speakers and they sounded fantastic, Class D and use Boosted Rail design, the system also had the Alpine PXA-H800 DSP and I'm quite sure that helped with the superb SQ..


----------



## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

I've not been to pleased with what I've heard with RF's line of speakers personally. At the same time, I've not been too happy with the PBR300X4/Kicker 40CS654 pairing I'm running. The Kickers seem like they need extensive EQing to get the right sound, which I've been unable to get just right.

I'm sure that Alpine is what really made the setup sound good and without it, it's have probably been lack luster.


----------



## Changchung (Aug 15, 2012)

I installed like ten of them, differents brands, ts-power, power accoustic, soundstream, mura, all of they have exceeded my expectations, not for super loud system but really great for simple and good sound. This is the last what I installed in a charger, 5 channel power accoustic











Sent from my phone with camera with flash and internet on it...


----------



## Changchung (Aug 15, 2012)

This is what I want to try next.







































Sent from my phone with camera with flash and internet on it...


----------



## alexRGR (Nov 24, 2015)

Mini amps are very popular in the motorcycle bagger world and the RF PBR's, Kenwoods, Power Acoutik, etc mentioned lack quite a bit in sound quality. The more common ones used, and yes they cost quite a bit more but are worth it IMO are:

Arc Audio 600.4 Moto (similar to the xDI line, but more efficient and designed for motorcycle charging systems)

Biketronics - there are quite a few posts on this forum about them

Fosgate - T400X4AD 

Diamond Audio Micro series (Cerwin Vega had the B52/B54 series out they just discontinued)

Hertz - HCP series

JL Audio - Newer HX series is tiny and well priced. Of course the 400/4 is popular

....and then fan favorite that's a little bigger PPI 900.4 clones.


----------



## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

alexRGR said:


> Cerwin Vega had the B52/B54 series out they just discontinued


Are you certain these are discontinued?


----------



## alexRGR (Nov 24, 2015)

trumpet said:


> Are you certain these are discontinued?


Pretty sure. The big vendors out there have them listed as discontinued....I called to see if they were getting any more and was told they were discontinued. Don't see anyone carrying them either anymore.


----------



## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

ok now I got another question

are the Chinese made amps essentially same design as the kenwood mini amps?

I mean do they use same amplifier chip ?

like the ones you find on Alibaba for 15-20 bucks without a case( just amp and the heatsink)
vs kenwood/alpine mini amp

the reason I ask is because I can fit 2 of those Chinese made amps where factory alarm was under dash if I insall them facing back to back with space in between and have enough space around them. 
I can put a 4 channel and a sub amp in there with no problem.


if anyone tested them for sound quality vs the namebrand mini amps
50wx4 is plenty for me to push the speakers around


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Link to Chinese/Alibaba mini amps?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

rton20s said:


> Link to Chinese/Alibaba mini amps?


look for "sure" brand at partsexpress,same ****.


----------



## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

fuzzysig said:


> ok now I got another question
> 
> are the Chinese made amps essentially same design as the kenwood mini amps?
> 
> ...


Now.... how would any of us know that? You didn't even link us to anything.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I've seen the Sure and other similar amp boards all over the place. I thought maybe fuzzysig had something specific. 

I doubt that you're going to find a "generic" Alibaba board inside any of the big name (Alpine, Pioneer, Kenwood, Clarion, etc.) mini amps. Are the name brands better or worse? Who knows. None of us without getting to A/B test or at the very least seeing internals to compare. And I haven't seen anyone open up one of the mini amps to show off the guts.

For reference, this is Pioneers version of the mini amp. This is the GM-D1400II from Japan. Essentially the same thing as the GM-D1004 here in the U.S. I'm not seeing a generic Alibaba board.


----------



## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

rton20s said:


> And I haven't seen anyone open up one of the mini amps to show off the guts.


I have. Here's the Alpine for example.

Damn it. I can't find the pictures! I'll post em up tomorrow when I get to my other computer. Can't even find them in the cloud right now...


----------



## EricP72 (Mar 23, 2008)

whats the opinion on the kenwood kac-m3004 components now that we have screen shots?


----------



## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

I remember the biketronix amp thread that makes me intrigued about it for a tiny amp. Hypex-based boards. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

fcarpio said:


> Sonic Electronix carries them. I like the NVX stuff.



The NVX micro amp ive not heard good things about.


----------



## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

TPA3116D2 2.1 HIFI Digital Subwoofer Amplifier Verst Board 12V 50Wx2+100W 24 car | eBay


----------



## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

I am seriously considering using 2 of the Arc KS 125.4's, one for mids/highs and the other bridged for midbass I have been trying to find negative reviews of them but haven't had much luck. These seem to be really good amps.


----------



## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

firebirdude said:


> I have. Here's the Alpine for example.
> 
> Damn it. I can't find the pictures! I'll post em up tomorrow when I get to my other computer. Can't even find them in the cloud right now...


I came through.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

fuzzysig said:


> TPA3116D2 2.1 HIFI Digital Subwoofer Amplifier Verst Board 12V 50Wx2+100W 24 car | eBay



I have few of those- garbage. good for a boombox or ice chest project.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

firebirdude said:


> I came through.


which one is that?


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Babs said:


> I remember the biketronix amp thread that makes me intrigued about it for a tiny amp. Hypex-based boards.


I think the Biketronics/Hypex amps are on a different level than most of the stuff in this thread.  I wouldn't mind giving one a shot myself. It is too bad Biketronics hasn't invested in development of UcD700HG into a matching mono amp. 



Victor_inox said:


> I have few of those- garbage. good for a boombox or ice chest project.


I guess that answers that. :laugh:

So Victor, in looking at the Alpine that firebirdude posted and the Pioneer from my post above. Any thoughts on how the two might compare?


----------

