# Shallow VS Regular Subwoofer



## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

I was almost to buy a SI BM MKV yesterday and have it as a Dual SUB setup. This would be in a big SUV and the SUB will be placed all the back.

Now I was told that the shallow mount cant play really low compared to a regular sub, is this true? How much of a difference will I have, will the difference be noticeable? Can I have a good SQ setup with enough punch with dual shallow sub vs a dual regular sub. If Regular I may use Dual 10 SUB vs the 12 SI.

I play my music low to medium volume and listen to mostly acoustic Rock(no heavy metal), Country, POP, EDM, melodies etc. Not a very Rap/HipHop heavy metal person.


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

you wont be disappointed with the SI sub.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

a lot of the reviews i have read on the SI BM MKV suggest that you will need two of them to get decent output. There is a decent thread going right now...i think it is called the GB12 vs SI BM MKV shootout or something like that. It gives a great review of the SI subs.


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

I've got a single MK4 in my crew cab Nissan Titan on a 500 watt JBL amp. More than enough output for me.. And a pair of MKV's in my 370z on a Zapco ST1000xm with an SQ tune.
Now, if you want the neighbors to feel it 3 blocks down, its not the right sub for you, but if your looking for good, solid, accurate Bass reproduction........


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

bonesb said:


> I was almost to buy a SI BM MKV yesterday and have it as a Dual SUB setup. This would be in a big SUV and the SUB will be placed all the back.


May I ask what SUV and in your install, why are you looking at a shallow? Is the sub being placed behind a panel or something? I have heard several slims/shallow subs sound very good but the one constant was the were given the correct amount of airspace. In many cases slim/shallow can sound as good and play as low as a traditional sub if given the correct enclosure. The one thing I have seen many times were a slim or shallow doesnt sound great is the user is trying to cram a 12" slim/shallow in a space where the enclosure size is compromised. A really good one I heard several years ago was in a SUV. A shop built the box and it was only about 5 or 6 inches tall, but the volume was larger that manufacture specs. The box was long and went across the span of the hatch but was only again about 5 or 6 inches tall. They found that when the kept the size at spec the sub sounded hollow and didnt play low. When they went larger than spec, sub sounded really good so they added the length to increase the volume of airspace.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

my understanding of most shallow mount sub is not that they dont have the ability to play low, from a mechanical standpoint. they simply lack the xmax to get very loud.

also because it is shallow alot of people will put them in impossibly small enclosures and then complain that they dont play very low. if your Fb is 80hz, then you will be -16db or more by 30 hz. over comming that with power is a big ask for any sub and nearly impossible for a sub with smallish xmax.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

what your mostly sacrificing, among other things, is xmax. Since the whole thing is so shallow, the voice coil can only move so much. This usually results in lower output overall vs a standard sub. Its also going to hit its limits quicker than a standard sub, so saying it wont have the low end isnt fully right. It can play the low notes, so long as it has the xmax for the output desired at a given frequency


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

I am not looking at a shallow mount because of the space. I have seen the BM MKV popup a few times comparing with other regular subs, so I am assuming it is at par. These are good in my budget hence I am looking at them. I am ok to about $600-$650 for a dual sub setup shallow or normal. I have no clue on the technicalities as long as it plays well I am happy


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Problem with most shallow subs is that they got high Qt, which means they need a larger enclosure to keep Qtc low, which in turn defeats the purpose.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Hanatsu said:


> Problem with most shallow subs is that they got high Qt, which means they need a larger enclosure to keep Qtc low, which in turn defeats the purpose.


i have noticed this too. Almost all shallow subs still require a normal or even somewhat larger enclosure.


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## Smash (Oct 4, 2011)

Hanatsu said:


> Problem with most shallow subs is that they got high Qt, which means they need a larger enclosure to keep Qtc low, which in turn defeats the purpose.


I'd disagree. A shallow subs purpose is to be "shallow" in depth. They didn't label them small enclosure subs. For many the purpose of them is to fit behind a seat that doesn't have enough room for a full size sub. For example my Ford F150 will never fit a full size sub behind the seat. But a shallow sub opens possibilities. If someone is going with a shallow sub because they want a small box then it's not a proper application.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Most people buy them because they want small enclosures in oem cavities. It often equals small spaces.


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## linedaze (Jul 26, 2018)

I have heard 2 12" JL tw3's. And they are plenty loud out of a sealed box. I thought they sounded amazing 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

I also was lucky to hear a JL TW3 the other day and I was impressed.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> i have noticed this too. Almost all shallow subs still require a normal or even somewhat larger enclosure.


would you classify the Audiomobile subs as shallow? They require a pretty small box for 10's.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

miniSQ said:


> would you classify the Audiomobile subs as shallow? They require a pretty small box for 10's.


They have velvet hammer baskets so no


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## pw91686 (Apr 1, 2015)

We installed a single mkiv in the rear side cargo of my sisters 4Runner, it sounds damn good, and has plenty of output for what she desires for her setup. Is it “loud”? No, but it does more than just “fill in” the low notes, it does play with some authority on 400 watts. Personally, I would want a dual setup, but then that would be plenty for me.
And I have a pair of mkiv for sale if you’re interested.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

dcfis said:


> They have velvet hammer baskets so no


But they have 4" mounting depth.


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## pw91686 (Apr 1, 2015)

miniSQ said:


> But they have 4" mounting depth.


Yeah in my mind, 4” is shallow. I think the JL Audio tw1, which is a “shallow” driver, is deeper than that.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

pw91686 said:


> Yeah in my mind, 4” is shallow. I think the JL Audio tw1, which is a “shallow” driver, is deeper than that.


the BM MKV hasa mounting depth of 3.4" but it has a vented pole piece, and the EVo has a mounting depth of 4" with no vented pole piece, so which could be in a shallower box?


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

dcfis said:


> They have velvet hammer baskets so no


Having Googled the interwebz, I remain utterly clueless about velvet hammer baskets. Are they characteristic of a particular form factor, style and/or brand of subwoofer/driver?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> would you classify the Audiomobile subs as shallow? They require a pretty small box for 10's.


No. I'm talking JL tw3/tw5, illusion carbon, etc etc

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

Grinder said:


> Having Googled the interwebz, I remain utterly clueless about velvet hammer baskets. Are they characteristic of a particular form factor, style and/or brand of subwoofer/driver?


It's like the good old Soundstream (velvet hammer) style basket from the late 80's and 90's. A few other companies use it too back then. Still in use occassionally...


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

diy.phil said:


> It's like the good old Soundstream (velvet hammer) style basket from the late 80's and 90's. A few other companies use it too back then. Still in use occassionally...


Thanks! 

Like this, I presume:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153453789750674&set=a.10150102787420674&type=3

Amazing how many unrelated products and topics pop up in a search for "velvet hammer" ...especially when you don't add "subwoofer" to the search term. :blush:


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

Ok due to Local availability and avoid overheads(Shipping), I decided to go with the JL 12TW3-D4 instead of the BM MKV. 

The install will happen tomorrow. I am still wondering how to power them. I have two amps that I can use.

4channel; 
Output Power @ 4 Ohm (CEA*)	4 x 200 W
Output Power @ 2 Ohm (CEA*)	4 x 350 W
Output Power @ 1 Ohm (CEA*)	4 x 550 W

Bridge mode @ 4 Ohm (CEA* / 1% THD)	2 x 700 W
Bridge mode @ 2 Ohm (CEA* / 1% THD)	2 x 1100 W

2channel;
Output Power @ 4 Ohm (CEA*)	2 x 180 W
Output Power @ 2 Ohm (CEA*)	2 x 320 W
Output Power @ 1 Ohm (CEA*)	2 x 500 W

Bridge mode @ 4 Ohm (CEA* / 1% THD)	1x640 W
Bridge mode @ 2 Ohm (CEA* / 1% THD)	1 x 1000 W

I will be running a dual sub sealed setup. What would be a good match for these sub? 

Also anyone running the same has a dual sub box design, sealed?


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

bonesb said:


> Ok due to Local availability and avoid overheads(Shipping), I decided to go with the JL 12TW3-D4 instead of the BM MKV.
> 
> The install will happen tomorrow. I am still wondering how to power them. I have two amps that I can use.
> 
> ...


i think the only one that makes sense is using the 2 channel amp running bridged 1x640 at 4ohms.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

miniSQ said:


> i think the only one that makes sense is using the 2 channel amp running bridged 1x640 at 4ohms.


This ^^^^^


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

Just to challenge why not the 700W from the 4 channel, it it to separate the amp or any other reason?


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## linedaze (Jul 26, 2018)

If u get the d4 version. Theres no way to wire it to see a 4 ohm load.unless u only hook up one VC So keep that in mind. With that sub using both VC u can only wire it to 2 ohms or 8 ohms 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

@Grinder, that fb link is indeed the SS velvet hammer! The 10R (also 12R) is the Reference series (high accuracy, SQ, smooth, powerful). Later the same basket style showed up in the even more powerful SS 15" types (SPL and limited edition too). These are the relatively more expensive cast aluminum/alloy baskets as their low end subwoofers use the stamped steel baskets. Later on, MTX or Orion (can't remember which) also began to use this type/style of frame (all must have gotten their baskets from the same source lol).


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

bonesb said:


> Just to challenge why not the 700W from the 4 channel, it it to separate the amp or any other reason?


I'm not sure those subs will need 700 watts each to reach xmax.


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## linedaze (Jul 26, 2018)

If it's a dual setup I would try to get atleast 4-500 watts to each sub.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

This is why I thought of the 4 channels 700W, 350W to each sub.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

Or I could go 1ohm and power them separately, instead of bridging. So 500W per sub.

What is the difference between running the 2channel amp in stereo and have the sub connected on two channels vs running it in bridged? Which is better.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

bonesb said:


> Just to challenge why not the 700W from the 4 channel, it it to separate the amp or any other reason?


First of all, I could easily be missing something.

According to your chart, that would actually be 1,000W (x 2 at 2 ohms - one for each paralleled D4 sub).

In no particular order: 
1) Possible overkill (perish the thought, LOL)?
2) No separate gains to set/match.
3) No need to split mono signal or sum stereo signal.

If possible, I'd go with a monoblock amp.


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

Grinder said:


> First of all, I could easily be missing something.
> 
> According to your chart, that would actually be 1,000W (x 2 at 2 ohms - one for each paralleled D4 sub).
> 
> ...



Ok let me clear it up. Its 2x12TWD4 subwoofers so they will be 4ohm in series. so 700W ie 350W per subwoofer. Correct?

Also if my amp can give 500w at 1ohm and since this is a D4 why not run it stereo, which is better? 1ohm stereo 2 subs(500W each) or 4 ohm bridged mono 2 subs(350W each)?


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

bonesb said:


> Ok let me clear it up. Its 2x12TWD4 subwoofers so they will be 4ohm in series. so 700W ie 350W per subwoofer. Correct?
> 
> Also if my amp can give 500w at 1ohm and since this is a D4 why not run it stereo, which is better? 1ohm stereo 2 subs(500W each) or 4 ohm bridged mono 2 subs(350W each)?


how would you arrive at 1ohm stereo from a pair or D4 subs?


But putting that aside for a minute, yes you "could run the 4 channel amp bridged at 2x700 @4 ohms. Its overkill, but if you are careful it would be fine.


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

miniSQ said:


> how would you arrive at 1ohm stereo from a pair or D4 subs?


Can I not run them separately?


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Since cone movement is at its least amount at tuning frequency with a ported enclosure than would xmax be as important then if the output is enough to safisfy you? I mean, you can get some pretty decent output from a subwoofer in a ported enclosure with an xmax of between 10 and 15 mm, which is well within the specifications of many shallow mounted subwoofers. If we were talking sealed enclosures, well now it matters more or if you are into SPL comps. The key is to make sure the box is built right and also to the right volume size requirements. Of course, this is true even for a regular style sub.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

bonesb said:


> Can I not run them separately?


I don't follow.

If you run a pair of subs in stereo that are DVC4's, you would either be running at 2ohms or 8ohms.

If you chose 2ohms, and then put those two 2ohm loads in parallel for a 1 ohm load, you would no longer be running stereo.


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

I am sorry, my bad. My head is still with my old sub which is a dual 2 ohm VC.


So the options I have in Bridged Mono is have them at 4ohm in series or 1ohm in parallel. In bridged my amp supports only 2ohm stable.

Or Stereo 2Ohm in parallel.


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## 555nova (Apr 12, 2014)

I've been running a 12tw3 of an alpine MRX-M1200 and it takes it well.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

bonesb said:


> Ok let me clear it up. Its 2x12TWD4 subwoofers so they will be 4ohm in series. so 700W ie 350W per subwoofer. Correct?
> I see. I assumed you'd be using both of the 4-channles' bridged pairs - one bridged pair per sub (it wasn't clear, but evidently you've got other plans for those remaining two channels).
> 
> 
> ...


.....


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

bonesb said:


> I am sorry, my bad. My head is still with my old sub which is a dual 2 ohm VC.
> 
> 
> So the options I have in Bridged Mono is have them at 4ohm in series or 1ohm in parallel. In bridged my amp supports only 2ohm stable.
> ...


With those amps, you can either run those D4 subs singly at 2 ohms, or combined at 4 ohms.

<edited>

4channel; 
Output Power @ 2 Ohm (CEA*)	4 x 350 W (singly)

Bridge mode @ 2 Ohm (CEA* / 1% THD)	2 x 1100 W (singly)

2channel;
Output Power @ 2 Ohm (CEA*)	2 x 320 W (singly)

Bridge mode @ 4 Ohm (CEA* / 1% THD)	1x640 W (combined) This would be your best bet, IMHO.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

diy.phil said:


> @Grinder, that fb link is indeed the SS velvet hammer! The 10R (also 12R) is the Reference series (high accuracy, SQ, smooth, powerful). Later the same basket style showed up in the even more powerful SS 15" types (SPL and limited edition too). These are the relatively more expensive cast aluminum/alloy baskets as their low end subwoofers use the stamped steel baskets. Later on, MTX or Orion (can't remember which) also began to use this type/style of frame (all must have gotten their baskets from the same source lol).


I missed this earlier. Interesting. Thanks.


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

The best decision I made in my audio setup. After running around trying to figure my SUB issues and multiple post in this forum, I am now, 200% happy


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Run them in parallel on the appropriate 4 ohm load. As you can see, the OPTIMAL power handling for these subs is 250W 12TW3-D4 - Car Audio - Subwoofer Drivers - TW3 - JL Audio. I also use these subs in my truck. I run 4 ohm in parallel on 200W and they hammer! Absolutely a phenomenal sub setup for an SQ build. I also run mine in a sealed box. Parallel in 4 ohm = 2 ohm at amp. So it looks like the wiring winner is Output Power @ 2 Ohm (CEA*) 2 x 320 W since it's in the optimal range for those subs. Go with that, can't go wrong. And pics or it didn't happen!


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

Yes I am running them at 4ohms, I was surprised to see how much less power they need, they really play loud and shake my vehicle. My amp is bridged and 700W RMS.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

bonesb said:


> Yes I am running them at 4ohms, I was surprised to see how much less power they need, they really play loud and shake my vehicle. My amp is bridged and 700W RMS.


:thumbsup:


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