# A novices comparison between some pretty sweet midranges and tweeters



## Ge0

Thanks for the hyper links *Catalyx*. Click the BLUE links to take you directly to the review.

*Focal Utopia TBXP beryllium dome tweeter paired with 3.5wm midrange*

Tonality *4* of 4
Detail *4* of 4
Spaciousness *3* of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4
Dynamics *3.5* of 4

*Stevens Audio CompNeo HLCD compression horns paired with Focal 3.5wm*

Tonality *4* of 4
Detail *3* of 4
Spaciousness *4* of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) *3* of 4
Dynamics *11* of 4

*Morel Supremo Piccolo tweeter paired with Focal Utopia 3.5wm midrange*

Tonality *4* of 4
Detail *4* of 4
Spaciousness *4* of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) *4* of 4
Dynamics *3* of 4

*Focal Utopia M TBM Beryllium dome tweeter paired with 3.5wm midrange*

Tonality *4* of 4
Detail *4* of 4
Spaciousness *3.5* of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) *4* of 4
Dynamics *3.5* of 4

*Xcelsus XXT30 tweeter paired with Brax ML3, Focal 3.5wm midrange, and Xcelsus XXM325 midrange*

Tonality *4* of 4
Detail *3.5* of 4
Spaciousness *3.5* of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4
Dynamics *3* of 4

*Xcelsus XXM325 midrange paired with XXT30 and Focal Utopia TBM tweeters*

Tonality *4* of 4
Detail *3.5* of 4
Spaciousness *3.5* of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4
Dynamics *3.5* of 4

*Dynaudio MF171 Midrange paired with MT171 tweeter and ScanSpeak D3004 Silk tweeter*

Tonality *3* of 4
Detail *2* of 4
Spaciousness *2* of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4
Dynamics *2.5* of 4

*Dynaudio MT171 paired with Focal 3.5wm and Xcelsus XXM325 midranges*

Tonality *4* of 4
Detail *3* of 4
Spaciousness *2.5* of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) *3* of 4
Dynamics *3* of 4

*Stevens Audio Soft Dome Tweeter paired with Focal Utopia 3.5wm midranges*

Tonality *4* of 4
Detail *3.5* of 4
Spaciousness *2.5* of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) *3* of 4
Dynamics *3.5* of 4

*Focal Utopia M TBM Beryllium dome tweeter paired with 3.5wm midrange - Revision 2*

Tonality *4* of 4
Detail *4* of 4
Spaciousness *3.5* of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) *4* of 4
Dynamics *3.5* of 4

*Dayton Audio RS100 midrange paired with ScanSpeak D3004 silk dome tweeter*

Tonality *2.5* of 4
Detail *3* of 4
Spaciousness *3* of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) *2* of 4
Dynamics *3* of 4

*Focal Utopia M 3.5WM paired with TBXP, TBM, and Morel Supremo Piccolo*

Tonality *4* of 4
Detail *4* of 4
Spaciousness *4* of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4
Dynamics *3.5* of 4

*ScanSpeak Revelator 12M paired with D3004 silk textile dome tweeter*

Tonality *4* of 4
Detail *3* of 4
Spaciousness *2.5* of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4
Dynamics *2.5* of 4

*ScanSpeak 10F midrange paired with D3004 silk dome midrange*

Tonality *3* of 4
Detail *2.5* of 4
Spaciousness *2* of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) *2* of 4
Dynamics *4* of 4

*Brax ML3 paired with ScanSpeak D3004 and Focal TBM tweeter*

Tonality *4* of 4
Detail *3* of 4
Spaciousness *2.5* of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4
Dynamics *2.5* of 4

*Audio Development MM4 midrange with MM1 tweeters*

Tonality *4* of 4
Detail *4* of 4
Spaciousness *3.5* of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) *3* of 4
Dynamics *4* of 4


Too tired tonight to start. Here is a sneak peek of what I have brewing...




























































































More one this tomorrow...

Ge0


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## 218625




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## Niebur3

Definitely in for this.


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## Elektra

Let’s see how this goes...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cman

Subbed. Curious to see your thoughts and how the esotan stacks up to those legends.


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## ocuriel

Nice speakers. Can’t wait.


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## dumdum

Funnily enough I own the scan 10f and 602000, they are both exceptional little drivers as long as you don’t try and push them too hard 👍🏼 The 10f is good at 400, better at 500 for me, and the 602000 is a superb tweeter, very detailed for what is a reasonable price... but I think I’d put the sb rdnc ahead of it in value for money

the utopia midrange should be pushed close as a pure midrange, but maybe not so close if used at a lower crossover which I think the utopia can make use of


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## JCsAudio

I’ve heard some of these. I’m guessing after tuning differences won’t be apparent until you push the limits. 🥡🍿🍿🍿


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## Ge0

First let me make this disclaimer. I am not experienced at writing speaker reviews. However, I have the rare opportunity to write my opinions on a handful of drivers I have been interested in so I thought I'd give this a shot. If you have any words of advice for me or creative criticism I would appreciate this.

I've had ScanSpeak Discovery 10F midranges installed in my car for about 4 months. I have them mounted Left, Center, Right for the front stage. I also have two 10F's mounted in the far rear D-pillars as rear fill. The fronts are currently paired with ScanSpeak Illuminator D2004 tweeters and Dynaudio MW182 midbasses. The entire system sans subwoofer is powered by a Helix V Eight DSP amplifier. The 10F midranges sound pretty good. However, you always wonder if you can do better. For instance, I vaguely remember how much I liked the ScanSpeak 12M Revelator midranges I had installed in my last vehicle. Sadly those won't fit in my new car without a significant modification so I decided to try the 10F's instead.

I started to search for deals to come up on midrange options I was interested in. I managed to score the Dynaudio Esotan MF171 first. Then came a deal too hard to pass up on Focal Utopia 3.5WM's. Finally I snagged a set of Dynaudio Esotar E430's. Yes, there are other options I would like to try. However, I have a lot cash currently invested in midranges so decided to stop here for now.

You'll also notice that I have three different tweeters in the mix. ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004, Dynaudio MD102, and finally Dynaudio MT171. My primary goal is to evaluate the midranges. However, I will mix and match tweeters as well just to see what I like best.

Sadly by the time I had all these drivers in hand the weather started to get too cold and rainy outside to swap them in and out of my car. I have a small detached garage which is not heated. So, I decided to move My evaluation inside. Perhaps this would be better. I can test the speakers under a more controlled environment.

All speakers will be mounted to a 12"x12"x1/4" MDF baffle. Why this? Well, I had a bunch left over after building stuff for my vehicle this summer . I painted the front faces in flat black to give them a fancy appearance 🧐. 



















The baffles will then be mounted to old 6x9 wedge enclosures I had laying around. The enclosures internal volume is roughly 4 liters. This should be large enough not to affect response of the midranges at the crossover point I chose.


















Midbass duty will be covered by Boston Acoustics ported 6.5" speakers that served as surround channels in my kids gaming home theater.










And finally sub duties will be covered by a Dayton Audio 12" powered subwoofer.










Music sources will be from FLAC files ripped from CD stored on my laptop. Data will be sent to an off board Motu M2 audio interface.










Finally, midbass, midrange, and tweeters will be powered by a Zapco DC Reference DC650.6 DSP amplifier.










This is kind of a hodge podge of stuff. However it is effective and sounds pretty [email protected] good.

Ge0


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## Ge0

I decided to use the DSP amp so I could properly level match drivers and attempt to set the same house curve between all of them. This way I could ensure i am comparing apples to apples.

Dynaudio E430 and MD102









Scan 10F and D3004









Focal 3.5WM and Scan D3004









I will add response for the Dynaudio MF171 and MT171 once I tune them.

Note I chose a rising bass response as I would in a car.

All speakers were crossed over the same. Subwoofer lowpassed at 80Hz 24dB/octave. Midbass from 80Hz to 400hz 24dB/octave. Midrange 400Hz to 3KHz 24dB/octave. And finally tweets 3KHz and up 24dB/octave.

Ge0


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## bnae38

Pics 1 and 3 are same?


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## Ge0

bnae38 said:


> Pics 1 and 3 are same?


Shut up 😀 😉 . Ok, I'll fix it after I'm done helping my son with his Algebra homework


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## Niebur3

When is the test being done?


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## lucas569

in for results


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## santirx

Looking forward to this comparison!! Great setup.


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## Ge0

Niebur3 said:


> When is the test being done?


I've done some initial listening sessions already (I spent a month with the Focals). I have a standard music set I'm using to compare. I'll start publishing impressions once I finish supplying background info. I expect the listening sessions will get more detailed and may last several weeks. After all, I just hooked up the E430's late Friday night.

Ge0


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## preston

Thanks Ge0 I love stuff like this. I'm in the same boat, running 12m's in my car and always wonder - is the next step worth it ? There was an old mid range comparison done in conjunction with this site back in 2013 where a group compared several mid-ranges ranking them tier 1-5. The 12m's were the only mid range ranked 2 and the Esotars were the only ones ranked 1 I believe. Uh oh now I might have influenced the jury outside the courtroom. What I'm mostly intensely interested in is how the Utopia's sound. Clearly the 12m's are no slouch (although I'd still be running my Satori MR-13P if I could fit them easier) but I have always been intrigued by the idea of moving up to the exotic level (not that the 12m's are cheap) and both the 430's and the Utoopia's are in that tier, althugh truth be told I'm holding our for the Accutons if they ever become available.


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## Niebur3

In the midrange test I did, both the 12M and e430 were in the top tier (and the only ones). I didn't have the Scan 10F or the Utopia, obviously. I tried obtaining the utopia available at that time but the distributor was very adamant he didn't want the Focal included.


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## Ge0

Niebur3 said:


> In the midrange test I did, both the 12M and e430 were in the top tier (and the only ones). I didn't have the Scan 10F or the Utopia, obviously. I tried obtaining the utopia available at that time but the distributor was very adamant he didn't want the Focal included.


Jerry, don't expect me to be anywhere close to as detailed as you guys were in that review. But, I will do my best. If anyone has anything specific they would lime me to try I will consider.

Ge0


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## ocuriel




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## Niebur3

Ge0 said:


> Jerry, don't expect me to be anywhere close to as detailed as you guys were in that review. But, I will do my best. If anyone has anything specific they would lime me to try I will consider.
> 
> Ge0


I'm excited for this. I do have a pair of midrange I wouldn't mind submitting, but they are brand new


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## Ge0

Niebur3 said:


> I'm excited for this. I do have a pair of midrange I wouldn't mind submitting, but they are brand new


Well, don't leave us in suspense. What do you have? 

Ge0


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## Ge0

I'm currently forming an opinion on the Dyn E430 and MD102 combo. I'm thinking I may want to swap the MD102's for the Scan D3004 on a hunch.


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## seafish

Ge0 said:


> I'm currently forming an opinion on the Dyn E430 and MD102 combo. I'm thinking I may want to swap the MD102's for the Scan D3004 on a hunch.


I am pretty sure that you won;t be disappointed with that combo...
I run the 430's with the Be version of that tweeter and it is a sublime combo !!!


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## vactor

illusion C3Cx? interested?


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## Ge0

seafish said:


> I am pretty sure that you won;t be disappointed with that combo...
> I run the 430's with the Be version of that tweeter and it is a sublime combo !!!


So you're saying you want to loan a set of Dyn Be tweeters for this evaluation 😁???

Ge0


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## Ge0

vactor said:


> illusion C3Cx? interested?


Hmmm. A coaxial. Interesting. Maybe after Christmas. I currently have my hands full and wouldn't want to borrow them for too long.

Ge0


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## seafish

Ge0 said:


> So you're saying you want to loan a set of Dyn Be tweeters for this evaluation 😁???
> 
> Ge0


no, no the Scan D3004 Be...and since my truck is in the shop for the season, and if you ask nicely and promise not to keep them, I MIGHT !!!!


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## Ge0

seafish said:


> no, no the Scan D3004 Be...and since my truck is in the shop for the season, and if you ask nicely and promise not to keep them, I MIGHT !!!!


Brain fart. I meant to say Scan. I know the exact tweeter you are referring to. Hmmm. PM me.

Ge0


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## seafish

pm sent


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## Niebur3

Ge0 said:


> Well, don't leave us in suspense. What do you have?
> 
> Ge0


These....... XXM325 – XCELSUS AUDIO
or these 12MU/4731T00 – Scan-Speak A/S and Scan 10F (Thiel Version), so maybe I need to do some retesting.....lol.


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## Elektra

Niebur3 said:


> These....... XXM325 – XCELSUS AUDIO
> or these 12MU/4731T00 – Scan-Speak A/S and Scan 10F (Thiel Version), so maybe I need to do some retesting.....lol.


The Xcelsus is pretty decent for the money... I would love to test the 12MU - have you tried these yet?


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## Niebur3

I am running the 12MU in my car now and just bought the Xcelsus (have them but haven't put any power to them yet). Steve Head told me the Xcelsus is better than the 12MU!


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## ATXcyclist

I am so in for this. I like your setup too. Makes me wish I didn't sell my Zapco DC650.6.


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## Ge0

Currently experimenting with mid to tweeter crossover point. I had it set to 3KHz across the board for my preliminary evaluations. I figured this is the point 3" to 3.5" drivers start beaming and their off axis response starts rolling off (like what would happen in my car).

However, I want the midrange to play as much of the vocal range as possible. So, I'm running some experiments with the crossover set to 4KHz. This will work for this evaluation since I am listening to the drivers on axis. I am still running midranges down to 400Hz. Ideally I would like to go lower, like 250Hz. However, I need to be cognoscente of a 3" midranges limitations. I don't want to cause distortion.

Also, I have WAY too many songs in my play list. I need to cut it down to become more manageable. That's hard to do. So much good music out there. I'm primarily selected well recorded songs biased more towards vocals and acoustical instruments. However, I do have some tracks with punishing electric guitar and synthesized instruments in the mix as well. I'll publish my play list and explain why I selected each song within the next couple of days.

Ge0


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## Niebur3

Jeez.....any updates? Been like forever!!!!!


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## Ge0

Niebur3 said:


> Jeez.....any updates? Been like forever!!!!!


Still working on it. Christmas activity slowed me down more than I expected. Still cutting down my play list. Also have some guest drivers coming in.

Ge0


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## Niebur3

Petty, Earnhardt Jr, Stewart, Gordon, Elliott???


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## Ge0

Niebur3 said:


> Petty, Earnhardt Jr, Stewart, Gordon, Elliott???


Ricky Bobby and Cal Naughton Jr. Shake and Bake baby!!!


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## Clvol1255

Sub’d


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## Gill

Any update? Looking forward to the comparison.


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## Mullings

Niebur3 said:


> I am running the 12MU in my car now and just bought the Xcelsus (have them but haven't put any power to them yet). Steve Head told me the Xcelsus is better than the 12MU!


Fire up those xcellsus’s, what are waiting for? Better yet, you should send them off to op to join the comparison test, this would be a perfect debut of a underdog


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## Elektra

Mullings said:


> Fire up those xcellsus’s, what are waiting for? Better yet, you should send them off to op to join the comparison test, this would be a perfect debut of a underdog


I have them in my car now - they sound very good - car sounds better than it ever did - however I don’t think the speakers had everything to do with it... decided to build proper pods for them - sealed pods with 800mls volume according to the manufacturer that is good for 280hz crossover point I think 24db slope - I need to check..

However in my car everything is passive off the Brax Matrix 3 way passives as I have the 1.1 tweeters and 6.1 midbass 

So I bought a ZED Duece amp (I hope it’s a decent amp - it’s still bnib as the guy never used it) on Sunday so I can take the passive out and run active and drop the frequency on the Xcelsus mids to see how they really perform..

Car sounds really good currently despite the passives...

I would say this install is just as important if not more important than the actual drivers... although doesn’t hurt to have linear detailed mids to use...


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## Mullings

Elektra said:


> I have them in my car now - they sound very good - car sounds better than it ever did - however I don’t think the speakers had everything to do with it... decided to build proper pods for them - sealed pods with 800mls volume according to the manufacturer that is good for 280hz crossover point I think 24db slope - I need to check..
> 
> However in my car everything is passive off the Brax Matrix 3 way passives as I have the 1.1 tweeters and 6.1 midbass
> 
> So I bought a ZED Duece amp (I hope it’s a decent amp - it’s still bnib as the guy never used it) on Sunday so I can take the passive out and run active and drop the frequency on the Xcelsus mids to see how they really perform..
> 
> Car sounds really good currently despite the passives...
> 
> I would say this install is just as important if not more important than the actual drivers... although doesn’t hurt to have linear detailed mids to use...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Come on man, get rid of those passives and put a proper tune on those things, you don’t know what you’re missing


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## Elektra

Mullings said:


> Come on man, get rid of those passives and put a proper tune on those things, you don’t know what you’re missing


Yeah man that’s happening this weekend - I don’t have enough time in the day to work on it - I just got the Resolut T DSP so i am evaluating that unit as well... 


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## Mullings

Elektra said:


> Yeah man that’s happening this weekend - I don’t have enough time in the day to work on it - I just got the Resolut T DSP so i am evaluating that unit as well...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Let me know how you like that processor, do you still have or can get access to the helix processor?


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## Elektra

Mullings said:


> Let me know how you like that processor, do you still have or can get access to the helix processor?


I am awaiting delivery of a Pro MKii - I was supposed to get a Ultra and the agents said there was no stock in Germany due to the AKM factory burning down.

A friend of mine email Audiotec Fischer and they said they have no stock issues as they had many chips so the burning down of the AKM factory didn’t affect Audiotec Fischer - so the agents lied to me - I suspect Audiotec Fischer wanted a min quantity order which the agents didn’t want to do... 

I am a bit disappointed to be honest... 

Would have been nice to do a side by side with the Ultra as many are saying the T is better sounding than the Ultra even a match or close match to the Brax - if the T sounded better than the Ultra I guess that could have been possible - I guess I’ll never know now...

I see you run the 8WMs what make those better than a 6.5”? Even if they play lower - you have resonance issues and you start playing into sub frequencies.... 

The T sounds very nice - I dunno if it’s because I rebuilt my speaker pods and that’s the reason the car sounds good or if it’s the processor - I honestly only used 2 bands of EQ and it sounds about right - I need a real time reference to compare 

So hopefully I’ll get the pro MKii Wednesday Thursday so Saturday I’ll be installing and doing a comparison... the T is literally double the price of what I can get the Ultra for... 

So I dunno - what I like about the T is that the Remote is easier to install than the Director - it’s just a telephone wire whereas the Director has that round plug and you still need to connect the power also the switching between presets is almost instantaneous whereas the Helix took like 30secs - the quality of the build is better on the T - feels solid.

The Director does more though and the Helix had literally 6 times more Parametric bands per channel - but - I only used 2.... 

The Helix is way more powerful but 95% of the people don’t use the full power of the Helix... 

Is sonic bliss better over tuning power? That’s the question I am deciding over...

The T sounds great really it does but the heart is saying save up for the Brax... 

I hate my heart! 


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## Ge0

Sorry if I haven't posted anything yet folks. I've laid some hints out here and there. But, my writeup is over 10 pages long now as it is and will probably keep growing. I need to parse it a little bit so people don't get bored to death reading it.


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## cman

Ge0 said:


> Sorry if I haven't posted anything yet folks. I've laid some hints out here and there. But, my writeup is over 10 pages long now as it is and will probably keep growing. I need to parse it a little bit so people don't get bored to death reading it.



Sweet! Thanks for your feedback, I'm building pillars soon and will use this info to help my decision regarding which drivers to use.


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## santirx

Hey @Ge0, which midrange did you like better, (1) the Focal 3.5WM Utopia M or (2) the DynAudio Esotar e430?

Looking forward to your reviews...


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## DaveG

santirx said:


> Hey @Ge0, which midramge did you like better, (1) the Focal 3.5WM Utopia M or (2) the DynAudio Esotar e430?
> 
> Looking forward to your reviews...


I’ll lay money on the Esotar’s as his pick!!!


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## RyuTsuiSen

Just throwing this out there, maybe release the write-up as a PDF and then space it out how you think would be best for most others?

I'm not greedy, I promise 

You should totally try to include some of the audiofrog lineup in there. Idk how they'd do in a that exact setting though.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


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## santirx

RyuTsuiSen said:


> Just throwing this out there, maybe release the write-up as a PDF and then space it out how you think would be best for most others?
> 
> I'm not greedy, I promise
> 
> You should totally try to include some of the audiofrog lineup in there. Idk how they'd do in a that exact setting though.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


I like that idea of including the Audiofrog GB series for review. Maybe the Audiofrog guy can lend @Ge0 some of those speakers in the spirit of a review.


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## Ge0

This could complicate things a little:


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## Ge0

Oops. Or this:






































There were a few minor disappointments here. Right out of the box I noticed sloppy manufacturing practice:

Glue slopped in the protective foam ring










Solder splatter









But, the big buzz kill was one of the speakers makes a buzzing sound during playback. I suspect a loose dust cap. But, can't tell for sure due to the integrated grill. 

Oh, and that hair stuck in the foam ring isn't mine either. Ewww...

The seller seems to be good to work with. He immediately offered to replace these once he received this set back. Grrr... That will work. But, it's going to set my evaluation back a week or so.

Ge0


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## cman

Ge0 said:


> Oops. Or this:
> 
> View attachment 290762
> 
> 
> View attachment 290763
> 
> 
> View attachment 290764
> 
> 
> View attachment 290766
> 
> 
> 
> There were a few minor disappointments here. Right out of the box I noticed sloppy manufacturing practice:
> 
> Glue slopped in the protective foam ring
> View attachment 290782
> 
> 
> 
> Solder splatter
> View attachment 290783
> 
> 
> But, the big buzz kill was one of the speakers makes a buzzing sound during playback. I suspect a loose dust cap. But, can't tell for sure due to the integrated grill.
> 
> Oh, and that hair stuck in the foam ring isn't mine either. Ewww...
> 
> The seller seems to be good to work with. He immediately offered to replace these once he received this set back. Grrr... That will work. But, it's going to set my evaluation back a week or so.
> 
> Ge0


Yikes... not looking good for such a young brand (Xcelsius).... Those scans look amazing... The Brax ML3 is another one that comes to mind... Not heard much about it in the US but the few things I have heard have been stellar...


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## Mullings

Ge0 said:


> Oops. Or this:
> 
> View attachment 290762
> 
> 
> View attachment 290763
> 
> 
> View attachment 290764
> 
> 
> View attachment 290766
> 
> 
> 
> There were a few minor disappointments here. Right out of the box I noticed sloppy manufacturing practice:
> 
> Glue slopped in the protective foam ring
> View attachment 290782
> 
> 
> 
> Solder splatter
> View attachment 290783
> 
> 
> But, the big buzz kill was one of the speakers makes a buzzing sound during playback. I suspect a loose dust cap. But, can't tell for sure due to the integrated grill.
> 
> Oh, and that hair stuck in the foam ring isn't mine either. Ewww...
> 
> The seller seems to be good to work with. He immediately offered to replace these once he received this set back. Grrr... That will work. But, it's going to set my evaluation back a week or so.
> 
> Ge0


Damn, bad first impression, hopefully you’ll get a good working pair because I’m excited for the results


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## RyuTsuiSen

I'm happy you can get them replaced, but sad you and us have to wait. 

Still eagerly waiting 

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


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## Ge0

Mullings said:


> Damn, bad first impression, hopefully you’ll get a good working pair because I’m excited for the results


The buzzing noise is not as noticeable at lower volumes. So, I decided to start really listening. These things are pretty darn impressive.


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## Mullings

Ge0 said:


> The buzzing noise is not as noticeable at lower volumes. So, I decided to start really listening. These things are pretty darn impressive.


I told you man, uncolored, not laid back, not forward sounding, just a really good balance, pair those scanspeak tweeters with them and tell us about it


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## seafish

Ge0 said:


> The seller seems to be good to work with. He immediately offered to replace these once he received this set back. Grrr... That will work. But, it's going to set my evaluation back a week or so.
> 
> Ge0


Call him back on Monday and offer to put the replacement pair on your credit card as long as he is willing to expedite shipping at his expense and will still offer the refund as soon as he receives the first set back. IF he is reputable, he should be more then willig to do this.


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## MythosDreamLab

Test these yet?


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## cman

MythosDreamLab said:


> Test these yet?
> 
> View attachment 290807



Oooooohhh why don't I PM you my address and you can go ahead and send those over to me for some long term testing...??


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## bbfoto

Ge0 said:


> Oops. Or this:
> 
> There were a few minor disappointments here. Right out of the box I noticed sloppy manufacturing practice:
> 
> Glue slopped in the protective foam ring
> 
> Solder splatter
> 
> But, the big buzz kill was one of the speakers makes a buzzing sound during playback. I suspect a loose dust cap. But, can't tell for sure due to the integrated grill.
> 
> Oh, and that hair stuck in the foam ring isn't mine either. Ewww...
> 
> The seller seems to be good to work with. He immediately offered to replace these once he received this set back. Grrr... That will work. But, it's going to set my evaluation back a week or so.
> 
> Ge0


Disappointing. My pair exhibited none of those issues, though I can see potential "buzzing" issues being more of a probability due to the spiderless design.

I also noticed that your Xcelsus box doesn't have the small circular blue "QC Passed" sticker on the label. Hmmm?

Hopefully you get the replacements quickly.

I also have the same basic impressions of them as Kevin, and you. Impressive. I'm still undecided, but considering their cost compared to other small "high-end" midrange drivers, they are definitely a worthwhile option.

You can never really go wrong with the 12M, though. But the XXM325 just seem more "alive" or dynamic for lack of a better description.


----------



## sq-cop

Xcelsus 3 needs 20 hours break in and watch the 5500 area for peaks. Great midrange in either dash or pillar locations. My pair do not show any signs of poor workmanship.


----------



## Elektra

bbfoto said:


> Disappointing. My pair exhibited none of those issues, though I can see potential "buzzing" issues being more of a probability due to the spiderless design.
> 
> I also noticed that your Xcelsus box doesn't have the small circular blue "QC Passed" sticker on the label. Hmmm?
> 
> Hopefully you get the replacements quickly.
> 
> I also have the same basic impressions of them as Kevin, and you. Impressive. I'm still undecided, but considering their cost compared to other small "high-end" midrange drivers, they are definitely a worthwhile option.
> 
> You can never really go wrong with the 12M, though. But the XXM325 just seem more "alive" or dynamic for lack of a better description.


The Xcelsus mids are so far better than the Utopia M3’s I had before...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Clvol1255

Elektra said:


> The Xcelsus mids are so far better than the Utopia M3’s I had before...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


WM?


----------



## Elektra

Clvol1255 said:


> WM?


Yes 3.5wm


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## Ge0

MythosDreamLab said:


> Test these yet?
> 
> View attachment 290807


Nope. And probably won't. They cost more than all the drivers I have here combined .

Ge0


----------



## Ge0

So it turns out the buzzing noise I was hearing may not have been coming from the Xcelsus midrange. I think something may have been loose on my mounting baffle. I also heard it a little with just the midbass playing. I snugged up all the bolts on my mounting baffle and haven't heard the buzzing noise again since. I've been evaluating the XXM325's all day without issue. We'll see in the days to come. I hope it is not the speaker and does not come back. At this point you are going to have to pry these things away from me. They are THAT good...

And now here is the beginning of what you all have been waiting for....


----------



## SNCTMPL

Ge0 said:


> So it turns out the buzzing noise I was hearing may not have been coming from the Xcelsus midrange. I think something may have been loose on my mounting baffle. I also heard it a little with just the midbass playing. I snugged up all the bolts on my mounting baffle and haven't heard the buzzing noise again since. I've been evaluating the XXM325's all day without issue. We'll see in the days to come. I hope it is not the speaker and does not come back. At this point you are going to have to pry these things away from me. They are THAT good...
> 
> And now here is the beginning of what you all have been waiting for....


That is music to my ears.👍🏻


----------



## Ge0

*Opening Statement:*

First I need to make a disclaimer. I have never written an in depth audio review. I am by no means an expert at this. Heck, I’m not even experienced. I am however an avid music lover and a shameless gearslut. I will do my best to convey my thoughts to the best of my ability.

Many forum members have been wondering about the behavior of this vs. that loudspeaker driver. I was also curious. So, I collected a bunch of them to try out. My goal is to provide an unbiased review of a number of midranges and tweeters I evaluated. 

This will be a living document that I will edit often. I’ll do my best to mark edits so you know I’ve added or changed the material.

Most importantly, if you want me to try something specific I’d be happy to do so. I could use the advice. Maybe I could do something better? Maybe there is a specific combo of drivers or a specific song you would like me to try?


*My Setup: *

I provided Youtube links to all the songs I am evaluating so you have an idea of what I am listening to. My actual music collection is CD quality or better. CD’s have been compressed into the .FLAC lossless format to conserve drive space. Some of my collection is HiRes 192K/24bit audio. I will note this where applicable.

My system is a hodgepodge of stuff I have laying around. I use Foobar2000 for music playback. Music data is streamed from my laptop to a Motu M2 audio interface via USB 2.0. The Motu is set for 192KHz/24bit D/A conversion. It is using it’s native ASIO driver to minimize error and noise introduced by native windows media audio drivers.

Two channel analog audio is routed from the Motu to a Zapco class A/B 6 channel DSP amplifier that drives the speakers actively. The DSP is used to route signals, set crossover points, and level match drivers. This is necessary as I try midranges and tweeters with various sensitivities. Tweeters and midranges get their own dedicated 50W amplifier channels. The midbass drivers are driven off 100W amplifier channels.

Midbass duty is covered by a ported Boston Acoustic 6-½” bookshelf speaker set. Midrange and tweeters under test are mounted to 12x12x3/8” inch MDF baffles. The baffles are then bolted to old 6x9 wedge enclosures. Approximate internal air volume of the enclosures is 5L. This effectively contains / cancels the midrange back-wave. It is also large enough not to impact the midranges frequency response in the passband I am using. The wedge enclosures sit on top of the midbass cabinets.

Midbasses are bandpassed from 70Hz to 400hz. Midrange is bandpassed from 400Hz to 3KHz. Tweeters are crossed 3KHz and up. All crossover slopes are 24dB/octave LR. 

A separate 12” Rythmik LVX12 servo powered subwoofer fills in sub bass duty. I use Equalizer APO 1.2.1 in windows to provide correction to the subwoofer to compensate for corner loading and room affects.

I am listening to the speakers nearfield, on-axis, and 45 degree off-axis during testing. They are sitting on a 70”x30” solid maple butcher block desktop. Speakers are pushed out as wide and as deep the desk makes possible.





































I use REW to measure response and help set levels accordingly. I find that I only need to make minimal adjustments between pairs. Frequency response is flat as naturally possible 200Hz to 20KHz. Minimal EQ is applied to midrange and tweeters only when necessary. EQ is applied to the midbass to facilitate a rising bass response. Bass response climbs from 200Hz down to 20Hz resulting in a 15dB overall gain at 30Hz where the bass response starts rolling off.

*Midranges under evaluation:*

Audible Physics NZ3 -- Pending
Dayton Audio RS100-4
Dynaudio Esotan MF171
Dynaudio Esotar E430
Focal Utopia 3.5WM
Illusion Audio C3CX -- Pending
ScanSpeak Discovery 10F 4ohm
ScanSpeak Revelator 12m 4ohm
Xcelsus XXM325[

*Tweeters under evaluation:*

Alpine SPX Pro Ring Radiator
Gladen Aerospace 20mm dome
Dynaudio MD102
Dynaudio MT171
Illusion Audio 25mm BeCu
Kravchenko KAXBLT
Morel Supremo Piccolo
ScanSpeak D3004/6020-00
ScanSpeak D2004/6020-00
ScanSpeak D3004/6040-00 Be
ScanSpeak D2904/61001 (Alpine SPX-F17 variant)

*To be continued....*


----------



## Isaradia

oh boy am i excited. would you be willing to test Steven's comp neo HLCD's?


----------



## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> *Opening Statement:*
> 
> First I need to make a disclaimer. I have never written an in depth audio review. I am by no means an expert at this. Heck, I’m not even experienced. I am however an avid music lover and a shameless gearslut. I will do my best to convey my thoughts to the best of my ability.
> 
> Many forum members have been wondering about the behavior of this vs. that loudspeaker driver. I was also curious. So, I collected a bunch of them to try out. My goal is to provide an unbiased review of a number of midranges and tweeters I evaluated.
> 
> This will be a living document that I will edit often. I’ll do my best to mark edits so you know I’ve added or changed the material.
> 
> Most importantly, if you want me to try something specific I’d be happy to do so. I could use the advice. Maybe I could do something better? Maybe there is a specific combo of drivers or a specific song you would like me to try?
> 
> 
> *My Setup: *
> 
> I provided Youtube links to all the songs I am evaluating so you have an idea of what I am listening to. My actual music collection is CD quality or better. CD’s have been compressed into the .FLAC lossless format to conserve drive space. Some of my collection is HiRes 192K/24bit audio. I will note this where applicable.
> 
> My system is a hodgepodge of stuff I have laying around. I use Foobar2000 for music playback. Music data is streamed from my laptop to a Motu M2 audio interface via USB 2.0. The Motu is set for 192KHz/24bit D/A conversion. It is using it’s native ASIO driver to minimize error and noise introduced by native windows media audio drivers.
> 
> Two channel analog audio is routed from the Motu to a Zapco class A/B 6 channel DSP amplifier that drives the speakers actively. The DSP is used to route signals, set crossover points, and level match drivers. This is necessary as I try midranges and tweeters with various sensitivities. Tweeters and midranges get their own dedicated 50W amplifier channels. The midbass drivers are driven off 100W amplifier channels.
> 
> Midbass duty is covered by a ported Boston Acoustic 6-½” bookshelf speaker set. Midrange and tweeters under test are mounted to 12x12x3/8” inch MDF baffles. The baffles are then bolted to old 6x9 wedge enclosures. Approximate internal air volume of the enclosures is 5L. This effectively contains / cancels the midrange back-wave. It is also large enough not to impact the midranges frequency response in the passband I am using. The wedge enclosures sit on top of the midbass cabinets.
> 
> Midbasses are bandpassed from 70Hz to 400hz. Midrange is bandpassed from 400Hz to 3KHz. Tweeters are crossed 3KHz and up. All crossover slopes are 24dB/octave LR.
> 
> A separate 12” Rythmik LVX12 servo powered subwoofer fills in sub bass duty. I use Equalizer APO 1.2.1 in windows to provide correction to the subwoofer to compensate for corner loading and room affects.
> 
> I am listening to the speakers nearfield, on-axis, and 45 degree off-axis during testing. They are sitting on a 70”x30” solid maple butcher block desktop. Speakers are pushed out as wide and as deep the desk makes possible.
> 
> View attachment 290912
> 
> 
> View attachment 290913
> 
> 
> View attachment 290914
> 
> 
> View attachment 290915
> 
> 
> I use REW to measure response and help set levels accordingly. I find that I only need to make minimal adjustments between pairs. Frequency response is flat as naturally possible 200Hz to 20KHz. Minimal EQ is applied to midrange and tweeters only when necessary. EQ is applied to the midbass to facilitate a rising bass response. Bass response climbs from 200Hz down to 20Hz resulting in a 15dB overall gain at 30Hz where the bass response starts rolling off.
> 
> *Midranges under evaluation:*
> 
> Audible Physics NZ3 -- Pending
> Dayton Audio RS100-4
> Dynaudio Esotan MF171
> Dynaudio Esotar E430
> Focal Utopia 3.5WM
> Illusion Audio C3CX -- Pending
> ScanSpeak Discovery 10F 4ohm
> ScanSpeak Revelator 12m 4ohm
> Xcelsus XXM325[
> 
> *Tweeters under evaluation:*
> 
> Alpine SPX Pro Ring Radiator
> Gladen Aerospace 20mm dome
> Dynaudio MD102
> Dynaudio MT171
> Illusion Audio 25mm BeCu
> Kravchenko KAXBLT
> Morel Supremo Piccolo
> ScanSpeak D3004/6020-00
> ScanSpeak D2004/6020-00
> ScanSpeak D3004/6040-00 Be
> ScanSpeak D2904/61001 (Alpine SPX-F17 variant)
> 
> *To be continued....*


You should try get the Xcelsus tweeters as well I just received the waveguide and non waveguide versions - they look and feel meaningful - the normal version is probably the heaviest tweeter I have felt... gonna test them against my Brax 1.1 tweeters


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## squiers007

Looking like a really good list! 

Might I suggest the lineup from SI? @ErinH already did a review on the M3 Carbons, but his was mostly quantitative (all about the numbers) and I think others would appreciate a qualitative (subjectively how they sound) review to go with it.


----------



## Ge0

*The Music:*

A subjective review can’t be performed without a full list of music you are intimately familiar with. I’ve been listening to these tunes for the last few months to re-familiarize myself with them. Here are my selections with a short description of why I chose them. 

I tried to focus more on well recorded acoustic live performances that pick up a lot of detail vs. processed studio recordings. However, I did select a few favorite studio recordings of mine just to throw into the mix. I’ve been listening to most of them for years. Let’s see how they sound.

Songs labeled as *PRIMARY* are used for judgement based on specific listening criteria. Non-labeled songs are those that I will fall back on to just take a good listen. I may or may not add results from these songs into my judgement summary. 

Alice In Chains - MTV Unplugged - Brother: This unplugged edition is an excellent quality live recording. The acoustic version of one of my favorite rock songs. Listen to how clean and crisp the guitars sound. The plucks and twangs really stick out. Buzzing strings on lower octaves. The tambourine in the background has an equal amount of detail. Jerry Cantrell’s lead vocals sound rich backed by Layne Staley. *PRIMARY*





Alice In Chains - MTV Unplugged - Rooster: Similar description to “Brother” mentioned above. However, Layne Staley now takes over lead vocals. Staley’s voice has a raspy twang to it. It becomes more defined with better quality speakers. You can hear a broken guitar string rattling towards the end of the song on a good set of speakers. On a really good set of speakers you can even follow the pattern of the rattling string. *PRIMARY*





Beastie Boys - The Mix Up - B for My Name: One of the few Beastie Boys albums that I would call well recorded. Don’t get me wrong, I love their stuff. But, their primary content was not recorded in high fidelity. This is a classic example of one of their instrumental jam sessions. I focus on the organ in this track. It has a rich tone. Some notes have layers of undertones.





Calexico - A Feast of Wire - Crumble: This band has so many unique styles I had to pick a number of tracks from them. This track borders on cool jazz. It has a great bass and percussion line with wailing horn solos. The trumpet and trombone solos are killer. This is an excellent live recorded jam session. I listen for tonality and dynamics in the horn solos. Also pay attention to the wood block and cymbal stick work in the percussion line. *PRIMARY*





Calexico - A Feast of Wire - Dub Latina: Same band, same album, totally different musical direction and style. This time it’s a Latin style dubstep. Another interesting percussion line, acoustic guitar, even harmonica and accordion. Another excellent live recorded jam session. The song opens with a driving drumline and southwest style guitar intro. Don’t forget the intricate detail caught once again in the percussion section. Another great track to test what your loudspeakers can reveal. *PRIMARY*





Calexico - Hot Rail - El Picador: What can I say, mariachi style with a southwestern flair. Here I focus on the tonality of multiple horns playing together with a nice driving percussion line. Towards the end a trumpet soloist breaks out and hits some pretty high and powerful notes. Pay attention at the end of the song. You can hear individual finger plucks on the guitars.
https://youtu.be/2FO9ZCc4cDk

Calexico - Hot Rail - Fade: A nice chill tune with dominant percussion line. Subtle guitar in the background. Listen for the soft muted horn in the background throughout the song. Joey Burns has a subdued laid back vocal on this track that does not distract you from the instrument work going on in the background. The song builds to a crescendo towards the end with the guitar line opening up and adding emotion. There is a lot going on during the climax including a cello. The challenge to a loudspeaker is to replicate what each instrument is doing all the way through to the subdued end. *PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/Mh17vRE2QSo

Calexico - The Black Light - The Black Light: The tune that first drew me to this band. Perhaps one of their most famous. Rich guitar and a powerful backing percussion line. Joey Burns sings lead vocals with a dark Southwest flare. Can you hear the locomotive passing in the background as they play? I’ve listened to this song many times and never noticed this sound until moving to higher quality midranges and tweeters.
https://youtu.be/K6r8i9SH-hQ

Carl Hancock Rux - Rux Review - Asphalt Yards: A big city urban funk explosion. A fun tune to listen to with wide soundstage and interesting imaging. Reminds me of what it would be like to step back into the 70’s with vastly superior recording equipment.
https://youtu.be/-aneioX49JA?list=PLfYNnlRyucIp03ziFoe_vWNVe51JnGufZ

Chevelle - Hats Off to the Bull - Face to the Floor: Gritty hard rock tune. Pete Loeffler takes lead guitar and belts out the vocals. Not a critical listening tune. Just something to crank up the volume and enjoy. A good test to see if the speakers keep their composure at higher volumes. Do the guitar chords sound powerful, crisp and clear? How about the drum set. Do the hi hat and cymbals get lost in the rest of the noise or can you still make them out?
https://youtu.be/JfD6V8b1zco

Chevelle - La Gargola - Take Out the Gunman: Another gritty hard rock tune. Only this one has a well mic’d cowbell! Not a critical listening tune. Just something to crank up the volume and enjoy. A good test to see if the speakers keep their composure at higher volumes. I like the hum of Pete’s guitar in the beginning of the song.
https://youtu.be/7UtL6GDJwXQ

Chris Cornell - Seasons: An acoustic piece from my favorite male vocalist of all time. There is nothing particular about this track for me but to listen to Chris Cornell’s dynamic voice. That, and the rich tonality of his guitar. I selected this track as a tribute to Chris who took his own life right after I saw Soundgarden live in concert in Detroit back in May 2017. He had an unquestionable passion for music just like I do. But he had talent, I don’t  It’s a shame he is gone. With that said “Seasons” is a great tune to listen to.
https://youtu.be/wu-ZD9kXXcA

Chris Cornell - Live at the Queen Elizabeth Theater Toronto - Call Me A Dog: Another acoustic performance by Chris Cornell from the “Temple of the Dog” album. This song is more intricate than “Seasons”. Chris takes the vocals to his limits while playing rhythm guitar. This is a piece to listen to at higher volumes. Can your speakers replicate his scream without distortion? Does the guitar still sound rich and crisp while doing so? *PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/5AJShOLlJyk

Chris Isaak - Wicked Game - Wicked Game: One of the first songs I remember hearing and thought “wow, that sounds really good”. Mostly due to the fact that it was way over processed. But, it is well recorded and I still like the song just the same. Chris Isaak’s voice is deep and rich. Background vocals give a spacious surreal feel. In addition, the rich guitar line and percussion also contain a generous amount of reverb to offer a further sense of spaciousness. I’ve seen this track performed live many times when Chris comes to town. This recording does him justice.
https://youtu.be/4vKsSGyQf-M

Dave Brubeck Quartet - Time Out - Pick Up Sticks: A classic west coast cool Jazz recording. I focus on the rich tonality of Paul Desmond’s alto sax. The cymbal strikes in the percussion line have a little hidden detail to listen for as well. Dave’s piano solo is great as always but nothing to write home about here. This is just a fun classic tune to listen to. *HiRes 192KHz/24bit*
https://youtu.be/4Ro8-NOiMBY

Dave Brubeck Quartet - Time Out - Take Five: Pretty much the same as above. Paul Desmond has a unique style of playing alto sax that I enjoy listening to. Pay attention to the brief drum solo in the middle. You can hear parts of the drum set rattle as Joe Morello strikes the toms and snares. Also, you can hear the strings on the standup bass rattle as they are being plucked intensely. If you can listen closely you can also hear a little bit of spit sizzle on Paul Desmond’s reed towards the end of the song. *HiRes 192KHz/24bit. PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/vmDDOFXSgAs

Days of the New - Yellow Album - Face of the Earth: I love the guitar lines on this song. The sound captured from the guitar is very detailed. They are my primary focus. There is a good driving percussion line. Also, Travis Meeks voice is very distinct. It has some twang to it but at the same time great tonality. I listen to assure Travis sounds tonally correct. You should hear every detail from the guitar strings even through Travis’s voice and the drum set.
https://youtu.be/IgIoP6LHlv8

Days of the New - Yellow Album - Now: This song has an interesting bass line to follow. However, the percussion seems all over the map in this track. In the beginning it is well defined just to the right of center. But, as the track progresses the producer pans percussion far left and right. So, I don’t focus as much on the percussion. I chose this song for critical listening because of the guitar work. Three guitars left, right, and center. The best work starts at the 3:00 minute mark. Many different sounds are coming off the strings and many different sounds as the strings vibrate. Listen to the right side guitar at the very end of the song. Can you hear at least a few layers of subtle sound as he plucks? *PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/jDT0HuyheIE

Gojira - The Link Alive - Drum Solo: This song is primarily known as a midbass test track. But, there is plenty of action up high as well. Listen to make sure you can hear plenty of detail in cymbals, snare, toms, and kick bass. From Mario’s drum stick dribbling on the cymbal to different sub tones coming off percussion strikes. This is an excellent live recording. Mario’s drum set is well mic’d. The detail is there, listen for it... *PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/3FBY6QefprE
https://youtu.be/kxQZCf-Y7os

Gojira - The Link Alive - Love: Just in case you feel the need to test your speakers and see how well they behave under serious stress. Crank up the volume and enjoy. Seriously though, this live album was captured by top notch recording engineers. This song contains highly detailed percussion followed by an onslaught of metal thunder. You can vividly hear Mario’s percussion in the background even while Joe is belting out heavy riffs and vocals. You should be able to play this loud as h3ll and still make out fine details due to this excellent recording. *PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/SMaUv1CKCT4

Harry Connick Jr. - Come by Me - Nowhere With Love: Just adding some big band sound into the mix. Harry’s voice has its own unique signature to listen to. Also listen for how his piano is replicated. Does it sound realistic tonally? There is a full line of horns. Can you make out the trumpets and saxophones separately? The percussion has a lot of cymbal and hi-hat work. Does that come through clear and precise? Can you hear individual notes on the stand-up bass as all this is going on? A great tune for analysis.
https://youtu.be/FC2HBLpb7oo

Igorrr - Savage Sinusoid - Cheval: A chaotic mashup of Italian accordion, metal riffs, hardcore EDM, and opera music. This sounds like a strange mix. But, interestingly enough it works out very well. Igorrr either performs or captures all other performers' tracks himself. He also produces his own music on some fairly high quality equipment. Don’t take this tune seriously. It’s just fun to listen to. It goes from accordion solo, to slap bass, to thundering kick drum percussion, to mandolin with female vocals, to growling screaming metal vocals, to EDM synth, to metal guitar, to female opera in pretty rapid succession. Everything blends together perfectly and recorded very well. Can you make out the multiple layers of musical ebb and flow as the song progresses? Can you follow each sound / instrument? *PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/UZzYxGZ7Hmc

Igorrr - Spirituality and Distortion - Camel Dancefloor: Middle eastern sitar meets hardcore EDM dance beats. This is a bass heavy track with a driving percussion line. But, as with most of Igorrr’s tunes, it mixes in intricate bass lines and heavy metal riffs. Maybe this is just my personal opinion but it’s a real cool tune.
https://youtu.be/zx1VG8EYNzg

Kings of Leon - Only by the Night - Closer: Adding a “new alternative” rock title to the mix.. Interesting guitar effects and off sync percussion throughout the song. Caleb Followill’s vocal’s are strong and distinct. You can sense the emotion in his voice throughout the song. Not a critical listening piece but well recorded and something to fall back on and listen to when critiquing a new speaker.
https://youtu.be/Qf92fQDITgc

Knife Party - Rage Valley EP - Centipede: Not a critical listening tune. Just pure EDM energy to kick the volume up as high as you are comfortable listening to. Surprisingly well recorded. The creepy sound effects make me cringe when listening to this song, especially while watching the video.
https://youtu.be/CSemARaqGqE

Kurt Elling - Man In The Air - In The Winelight: A good male vocalist jazz track. I’ve seen Kurt live in both Detroit and New York. I have a good idea what he sounds like in intimate small venues. His voice is velvety and smooth. I listen for his rich tenor tonality here. Also, the xylophone and background organ. If you listen closely you can hear a musician humming their line as they play. This gets hidden or masked in systems that don’t provide detail. If I didn’t already have too many primary tracks this would have been one of them. *HiRes 192KHz/24bit*
https://youtu.be/fHLFzF6pC3o

MC 900 Foot Jesus - One Step Ahead of the Spider - New Moon: An avant-garde hip-hop jazz piece. This is a rather long and drawn out song. It has an eclectic mix of instruments to guide the story line. It opens with a sitar, bass, oboe, and rhythm percussion line. Mark Griffin’s vocal lines are there. He tells a story about a chick crashing a car. But, that is really irrelevant here. The guitar line, organ, and bongos enter the mix and create a cool jazz atmosphere. I’m listening for multiple layers of musical instruments all intertwining. Does it all blend together or do the speakers have enough definition for you to follow everything individually? The content is there you just need to hear it.
https://youtu.be/Qugb5aGZbEo

Michael Buble - It's Time - Quando, Quando, Quando: A male Jazz artist vocal track with guest Nelly Furtado. Listen for consistency in their voices from test speaker to test speaker. Also, is the brief tenor sax solo replicated accurately? Can you hear distinct tones in the rhythm guitar? Can you make out all the various background percussion instruments like maracas, triangle, cymbal rides, and wood block ? How many flutes are playing in the background?
https://youtu.be/lXX1Oq7lGE4

Miles Davis - Kind of Blue - All Blues: One of my favorite Jazz tunes of all time. I’ve memorized every facet of this song from Miles trumpet (center) to Cannonball Adderly’s alto solo (left) to John Coltrane’s tenor solo (right). Listening to this track is an exercise in not only judging dynamics and tonality but also proper staging. Bill Evans piano (left) and Paul Chambers bass (center) set a background while Jimmy Cobb on percussion (right) holds the tempo. I chose this song for critical listening due to the simultaneous events going on throughout the song. Can you make out the detailed percussion while Miles, Cannonball, and John are playing at the same time? *HiRes 192KHz/24bit. PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/-488UORrfJ0

Miles Davis - Kind of Blue - So What: My favorite Jazz tune of all time. Like “All Blue’s” I’ve memorized every facet of this song from Miles trumpet (center) to Cannonball Adderly’s alto solo (left) to John Coltrane’s tenor solo (right). Again, listening to this track is an exercise in not only judging dynamics and tonality but also proper staging. Bill Evans piano (left) and Paul Chambers bass (center) set a background while Jimmy Cobb on percussion (right) keeps the pace. An excellent tune any jazz fan should know like the back of their hand. *HiRes 192KHz/24bit.* 
https://youtu.be/ylXk1LBvIqU

Nirvana - MTV Unplugged - Oh Me: I’m not necessarily looking for any bands greatest hits here. I’m looking for excellent sounding tunes that capture the bands overall sound. Here Kurt's vocals really stand out. The guitar lines were captured with excellent detail. You can hear a number of tones in the guitar line as he strums the instrument differently. The sound goes beyond just the individual notes. *PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/T5LtSKKr7oY

Nirvana - MTV Unplugged - Something In The Way: A darker / smoother melody by Nirvana. Again, lead guitar really stands out. Cello in the background. And of course Kurt’s voice is soft and muted at times but builds to a small climax here and there. I’m primarily listening to the tone of the guitar as the song progresses. The Cello in the background is also good to follow, Does it sound realistic? Dave Grohl’s drum kit was not mic’d that well on this song so not a lot of percussion nuance to listen for here.
https://youtu.be/1YhR5UfaAzM

Nirvana - MTV Unplugged - The Man Who Sold The World: This song mixes acoustic and electric guitar but still captures enough to be considered an “unplugged” performance. Kurt’s voice gets a bit gritty here as the song progresses. It wouldn’t be Nirvana without a little bit of electric guitar line. There is some small talk at the end of the song that sounds lifelike captured in stereo. A glass gets knocked over, you can hear Kurt's fingers resting in his guitar strings as he prepares for the next song. Subtle little nuances that add to the overall experience.
https://youtu.be/fregObNcHC8

Pantera - Vulgar Display of Power - This Love: Just because. I wouldn’t own a sound system that could not play this power ballad loud without puking. Turn it up and feel the raw energy...
https://youtu.be/tymWpEU8wpM

Patricia Barber - Cafe Blue - A taste of Honey: Soft female Jazz vocal track. Rich acoustic guitar solo with rich tone and detailed texture. Can you hear the guitarist's fingers sliding across the strings? Highly detailed percussion background. You can hear the individual beads slide and bounce around in the maraca’s? Listen for different tones that come off the skins as the musician’s hands strike the bongo’s. *HiRes 192KHz/24bit. PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/fx6Su7uYQ94

Patricia Barber - Cafe Blue - Mourning Grace: Highly dynamic / classic jazz track. Listen at a higher volume. Pattie’s voice will absolutely shred a bad sound system on this track. An awesome drum solo at the end rounds it off. Again, the recording captures tons of detail to listen for. Excellent staging. *HiRes 192KHz/24bit*
https://youtu.be/1TphNINv1HU

Patricia Barber - Cafe Blue - Nardis: A beautiful intricate piano line full of detail to start. The song morphs into a blazing drum solo (per jazz standards) at 4:45 minutes through. The song truly goes from one end of the spectrum to the other. Again, another one to listen to at higher volume levels. The drum solo pans all over the stage and is fun to follow. Many percussion hints to follow all the way through. A good sound system will hold its composure here from the quietest of passages to the most dynamic. The most dynamic being the drum strikes to close the drum solo. It will have enough impact to surprise you. *HiRes 192KHz/24bit. PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/4-T7d8HYASk

Patricia Barber - Cafe Blue - Too Rich for My Blood: Another Patty Barber solo tune that will shred a bad sound system with her vocal dynamics (skip to 4:30 seconds into the song). A short bass solo blends well with the piano line that leads the song off. The real fun does not begin until Patty starts building her vocals up mid way through. A good midrange will be able to keep up without obvious signs of distortion. HiRes 192KHz/24bit. *PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/RcKAu0rYIH8

Patricia Barber - Companion - Like JT: Extremely well recorded live guitar jam session with intricate percussion. The imaging in this track is holographic. Yep, it’s very lifelike. The glass of wine tipping over and spilling at the very end will make you jump for a paper towel to mop it up on a good set of speakers. This song should be on the critical listening list. But, at 9:40 seconds long it’s a lot to take in. I include it as primary for the intricate percussion work that starts about 5:30 into the song. This sounds amazing on loudspeakers that can provide the detail. I found that as I swapped in better quality tweeters I could start to hear more detail off the cymbals, hi-hats, and cowbell. Oh yeah, that and the glass drop at the end of the song. Does it just come across as a sound? Or, did it make you jerk to grab a towel? *HiRes 192KHz/24bit.* *PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/MPCbUdhcKVs

Patricia Barber - Companion - Use me: Excellent live stand up bass solo at the beginning. Listen for all the sound coming from the bass, beyond the notes played. Listen for individual string plucks as well as the bassist tapping on the body of his instrument in rhythm. Follow the bongos. You can tell each strike of the skin is unique. The ratchet and tambourine in the background are also full of detail. And of course Patty has a deep velvety smooth voice. *HiRes 192KHz/24bit.* *PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/4bmf8LYSRDY
https://youtu.be/ci27xPmQ4-w

Patricia Barber - Modern Cool - Company: Excellently recorded jazz jam session. Pattie’s voice and the bass line are excellent to follow. But, I listen to the trumpet primarily in this track. The mics pick up all tones, resonances, and spit flutters from the instrument as the musician plays. The bass line and percussion on this track are fun to follow. A short percussion solo at the center of the track is full of detail and dynamic. Listen to the string plucks on the stand up bass in the end. *HiRes 192KHz/24bit. PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/26H5yhdyARQ

Patricia Barber - Modern Cool - Constantinople: An obscure instrumental track showcasing string bow on the standup bass, sitar, and a great trumpet solo. Again, the recording quality is impeccable. Drumsticks striking against the side of the bongo here bring out a unique sound to listen for. Various surfaces have unique tone and detail. This song should be selected for critical listening strictly due to the technical detail and excellent recording quality. However, at nearly 9:00 minutes long it is a stretch. Even though this song is awesome other songs contain similar technical content that can be judged. *HiRes 192KHz/24bit.*
https://youtu.be/uaWt3C6QZ98

Patricia Barber- Nightclub - Bye Bye Blackbird - Surreal jazz vocal track full of intricacy. Pattie’s piano solo is very well recorded. A rich tone, each note has a different strike and detail. You can hear individual bristles brush the drum head in the background. Another holographic stereo recording. Short and sweet and ideal for critical listening. This is probably my main critical listening track. *HiRes 192KHz/24bit. PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/sHwiVBVGt1Y

Patricia Barber - Verse - Pieces: Jazz vocal track with alternating drum syncopation. Again, great work on the trumpet. I’m running out of things to say about this series of Pattie Barber recordings beyond each has intricate nuances I listen for. I’ve seen most of these songs performed live in Detroit, Chicago, and New York. So, I am familiar with how they should sound. *HiRes 192KHz/24bit.*
https://youtu.be/dAiH3HfJntY

PJ Harvey - Rid of Me - Missed: I really like the opening percussion and guitar in this song. Then PJ enters with her sweet yet gritty vocals. She tells a short story in pretty much every one of her songs. Mostly about heartbreak, some broken relationship, or being a mother. Yep, there is gritty garage band emotion in this tune. Brutal, aggressive, abrasive. Hey, it all can’t be pretty. PJ Harvey does a great job reminding us. I’ve seen her live a few times and know what to expect.
https://youtu.be/7PIjG9-t3CE

PJ Harvey - Rid of Me - Rub 'til It Bleeds: Another gritty rock tune. Again, a brief guitar opening with warmth and buzz. Then PJ enters with soft vocals that build. Soon after PJ Harvey’s voice really comes alive. Her rhythm guitar sounds rich at times and gritty when it needs to. You can feel emotion and angst in this song. It’s energy pulls you in. I’m not listening for anything in particular with this song. Just the high energy garage band image it portrays. Not sure what she’s rubbing here, but with the voracity she is going at it, it is sure to bleed . *PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/ClcnhN2pHBc

Popof - Bowo EP - The Striker: Not a critical listening track. It’s a fun Techno tune with a wide soundscape and plenty of sound effects. Turn it up and get your groove on.
https://youtu.be/QcbxrVfARek

Rage Against the Machine - Killing in the Name: Can this classic be played at ear splitting volumes and still remain composed? The opening bass line is iconic. Can you hear Tim Commerford slap the stings? Tom Morello's guitar just growl's. I just wish Brad Wilk would have worked in a little more cowbell besides the songs opening. Still his drum line drives the pace of the song. I've noticed his hi-hat and cymbal work is very defined / distinct with a good set of tweeters. However, you don't hear the same amount of definition with average tweeters. I always thought is was just the way the song was recorded (low definition) until I had a chance to really take a good listen on quality equipment.
https://youtu.be/ctiKD8jtvV8

Sonic Youth - Dirty - Shoot: Gritty grunge rock. Thurston Moore sets the background grunge guitar while Kim Gordon takes lead vocals. Not a song for critical listening at all. Just making sure it is replicated accurately and with good tone. The vocals should be ugly. The guitars should have grit and buzz. At the same time the percussion should be sharp and crisp over all the noise. The closing guitar and percussion have a few nuances to listen for. Listen to Steve Shelley’s drum sticks click as he hits the cymbal.
https://youtu.be/UhgmcUs9dUk

Sonic Youth - Dirty - Theresa's Sound-World: Listen to the intricate guitar work at the beginning of the song. Thurston Moore takes lead vocal this time as his guitar continues to build into pure grunge riffs. You should sense a wall of guitar energy throughout most of this song. It builds and subsides, then builds and subsides again. Nothing critical to listen for. Do the speakers replicate the song at higher volumes without being fatiguing? Can you hear subtle nuances in percussion over the guitars?
https://youtu.be/4zOMNmuQj_s

Thievery Corporation - 18th Street Lounge - The Elise Affair: A surreal chill song. Not for critical listening. But, just for enjoyment. There is a lot going on in this song. Bells, Chimes, Bongo, Didgeridoo, and more. Wide open sound space with a good beat. Great for just sitting back and taking in. Warning, the song posted on Youtube is definitely too compressed and has lost a lot of its detail. In addition, the song posted on Youtube is being played at 90% speed compared to the same track on my CD. I found this a bit strange. Maybe try a streaming service to hear this song.
https://youtu.be/vjn_Fd5tehk

Thievery Corporation - Abductions And Reconstructions - Rockers Hi-Fi Transmission Central: Another chill song with a Reggae theme. Not for critical listening. But, just for enjoyment. There is a lot going on in this song. Various percussion, horns, flute, vocals, bongos, and more. Wide open sound space with a groovy beat. Great for just sitting back and taking in.
https://youtu.be/ZMQiK3MNlMc

Thievery Corporation - Den of Thieves - Thunderball -the Panther: A chill tune with a New York lounge feel. I like the opening bass line and percussion. The stand up bass has a driving beat with some interesting strumming affects. When the big band comes in it pans wide creating a huge soundstage. The synthesized cymbal crashes are a little harsh but the drum stick work is impressive. Again, not for critical listening. More for listening and enjoying. Warning, the song posted on Youtube seems too compressed and has lost a lot of its detail. Maybe try a streaming service to hear this song.
https://youtu.be/Kk_vMHzJC8M

Thievery Corporation - The Outernational Sound - Lagos Communique: This is another chill song with a pretty good groove. Wide variety of percussion. More horns. And a driving African style rhythm and vocals. Not to mention the sitar coming in with its own groove. I would go out on a limb and say this is “world” style music. But, has a cool groove. Pay attention to the triangle in the background. A fun tune to listen to. Warning, the song posted on Youtube seems too compressed and has lost a lot of its detail. Maybe try a streaming service to hear this song.
https://youtu.be/gZjV7eWT3TQ

This is Acid Jazz After Hours - Acid Jazz Brooklyn Funk Essentials: A great example of modern New York style jazz. Most of the music is programmed loops. However, the trumpet solo is real and full of great tonality. The piano line is synth but still pretty good. Even the programmed percussion line gives you a surprise once in a while. While synthesized it still has some pretty realistic sections. Overall a well recorded track worthy of sitting back to take a serious listen.
https://youtu.be/I7w5KCU9LGA

This is Acid Jazz After Hours - Kruder & Dorfmeister Definition: Another great example of modern New York style jazz. Most of the music is programmed loops like before. This is similar to the last track but the lead instrument is now flute instead of trumpet. Also, I would consider this track more chill style club music than jazz. Still, it is a nice track to sit back and listen to.
https://youtu.be/_Ora8MYUieo?list=PLoNQxeojnKjptbzraUf3tHBfFZKACkpyx

Tom Morello featuring Knife Party - Atlas Underground - Battle Sirens: Oh h3ll yeah! Blaring rock guitar riffs and bass heavy EDM. It's good to see some of Tom's more interesting side projects. I've included two links. One just to hear the song with a decent bit rate. The other to see it performed live in Downtown Miami at the Ultra Music Festival. Big stage even bigger sound. Don’t get much better than this when I go loud...
https://youtu.be/3GG4Oi-bxEc
https://youtu.be/brGxrbgzjXg

Tool - Fear Inoculum - Chocolate Chip Trip: A real departure for rock band Tool but very welcome. I don’t really know what to call this track but very cool. The first 60 seconds contain some very interesting percussion sounds. I believe Danny Carey is striking long metal tubes in succession across the soundstage. Then the song begins to morph. By the 2 minute mark the drum line starts. And it is awesome. The tom’s pan across the soundstage back and forth. The kick drums make your guts wiggle. The weird thing is an 11KHz tone burst every 4 seconds once the drum line starts. Maybe this is some marker helping to keep time? Or, maybe it was intended to be part of the song? Hmm. Kick up the volume and enjoy. *PRIMARY*
https://youtu.be/POdNTtDi-eA

Zero 7 - The Garden - Futures: A trip hop or chill track. Great quality guitar line at the beginning. Also, an interesting drum / percussion line with nice crisp stick work. Unique synth background. Male lead vocals by Henry Binns are nice and mellow. Synth takes over at the end to close the song out. Not for critical listening. Just sit back and enjoy.
https://youtu.be/-6F4kf0NHaU

Zero 7- When it Falls - The Space Between: Another trip hop or chill track. Great quality guitar and drum lines. Unique synth background. Female vocals by collaborator Tina Dico. I listen to this track mostly to absorb Tina’s velvety smooth voice. The background music does a great job at doing just that, backing her up  . Listen to the crisp yet light cymbal rides. The organ work here is nice to follow as it wanders the stage panning left and right. The flute work at the very end closes the tune on nicely. Another great track just to lay back and take in.
https://youtu.be/JzSvhmwLu6o


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## Ge0

squiers007 said:


> Looking like a really good list!
> 
> Might I suggest the lineup from SI? @ErinH already did a review on the M3 Carbons, but his was mostly quantitative (all about the numbers) and I think others would appreciate a qualitative (subjectively how they sound) review to go with it.


Not on my radar at this time. Maybe if I find a deal on a used set.

Ge0


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## Ge0

Elektra said:


> You should try get the Xcelsus tweeters as well I just received the waveguide and non waveguide versions - they look and feel meaningful - the normal version is probably the heaviest tweeter I have felt... gonna test them against my Brax 1.1 tweeters
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What if anything is special about these tweeters? I can get them, but don't know why I would. I've heard nothing about them. I'd rather save my pennies and try to snag a set of Piccolo's.

Ge0


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## Ge0

Isaradia said:


> oh boy am i excited. would you be willing to test Steven's comp neo HLCD's?


Horns paired with a set of 3" midranges? Hmmm. I've heard of stranger things. Sure, why not. PM me.

Ge0


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## Ge0

Ge0 said:


> So it turns out the buzzing noise I was hearing may not have been coming from the Xcelsus midrange. I think something may have been loose on my mounting baffle. I also heard it a little with just the midbass playing. I snugged up all the bolts on my mounting baffle and haven't heard the buzzing noise again since. I've been evaluating the XXM325's all day without issue. We'll see in the days to come. I hope it is not the speaker and does not come back. At this point you are going to have to pry these things away from me. They are THAT good...
> 
> And now here is the beginning of what you all have been waiting for....


Well, my hopes were squashed like a cockroach with a sledge hammer. The buzzing came back. It's definitely the XXM325 driver. I'll get a new set in ASAP. In the mean time I'm going to do more comparisons between the Focal 3.5WM and the Dyn E430. Then, move onto the Scan 12m's.

Ge0


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## Ge0

sq-cop said:


> Xcelsus 3 needs 20 hours break in and watch the 5500 area for peaks. Great midrange in either dash or pillar locations. My pair do not show any signs of poor workmanship.


Where did you get these nuggets of information? Xcelsus has no info posted on these suckers what-so-ever.


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## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> What if anything is special about these tweeters? I can get them, but don't know why I would. I've heard nothing about them. I'd rather save my pennies and try to snag a set of Piccolo's.
> 
> Ge0


Gonna do some tests - I did play the waveguide version for like 5mins before the sun went down and they sound different to the Brax....

So on Saturday I am going to do it properly when I have time and test both versions as well


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Isaradia

Ge0 said:


> Horns paired with a set of 3" midranges? Hmmm. I've heard of stranger things. Sure, why not. PM me.
> 
> Ge0


I was thinking more, horns as the 3" midranges, still use your 6.5"s and Tweets, play horns ~800-~14K. I'm specifically interested if you find them as detailed at low volume as these top of the line 3"s, and if anything can keep up with them on the output side


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## sq-cop

Ge0 said:


> Where did you get these nuggets of information? Xcelsus has no info posted on these suckers what-so-ever.


I have both mids and tweeters (non-waveguide version) and communicated with Steve Head regarding the drivers. Steve has them In his truck. I am also connected to the distributor. I have them on break in and will soon give them a more thorough try.


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## Ge0

sq-cop said:


> I have both mids and tweeters (non-waveguide version) and communicated with Steve Head regarding the drivers. Steve has them In his truck. I am also connected to the distributor. I have them on break in and will soon give them a more thorough try.


What are your impressions on the tweeters? I was curious about them but only have so much cash in my slush fund...

Ge0


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## sq-cop

Heavy and well constructed. Still really in a trial phase. These are designed by a prior DLS owner. I have used 3” from Flux, Karma, Hybrid X and Unity, Xcelsus, Audiofrog, Dyn Esotar 2 and AP in the same car. Looking forward to the results of this test and to see how all this stacks up on my car.


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## Ge0

sq-cop said:


> Heavy and well constructed. Still really in a trial phase. These are designed by a prior DLS owner. I have used 3” from Flux, Karma, Hybrid X and Unity, Xcelsus, Audiofrog, Dyn Esotar 2 and AP in the same car. Looking forward to the results of this test and to see how all this stacks up on my car.


You're going to be pleased with the midranges. Don't have any experience with the tweeters.

Ge0


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## JCsAudio

Ge0 said:


> What if anything is special about these tweeters? I can get them, but don't know why I would. I've heard nothing about them. I'd rather save my pennies and try to snag a set of Piccolo's.
> 
> Ge0


O-those Piccolo's are beautiful sounding tweeters. I tuned a car with those and I was impressed. 

No AF GB25/GB10 combo huh! That review won’t be complete without those Forum favorites in there because many are familiar with those two now.


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## Clvol1255

Appreciate you doing this Geo! You’ve got some great drivers on that list


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## cman

Elektra said:


> The Xcelsus mids are so far better than the Utopia M3’s I had before...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


really? That is a bold statement and surprised me. What would you say is your favorite mid range driver of all the ones you tried? I’m building pillars soon this info is very valuable to me - I have my eyes on the brax or maybe scans.. but I will have to add this to my list of considerations...


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## Ge0

JCsAudio said:


> O-those Piccolo's are beautiful sounding tweeters. I tuned a car with those and I was impressed.
> 
> No AF GB25/GB10 combo huh! That review won’t be complete without those Forum favorites in there because many are familiar with those two now.


Yep, those Piccolo's are REAL freaking nice .

Why no Audio Frog? Well, I don't feel like buying them to try them out. If somebody has a spare set they want to send me then I will add them in.


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## Patriot83

cman said:


> really? That is a bold statement and surprised me. What would you say is your favorite mid range driver of all the ones you tried? I’m building pillars soon this info is very valuable to me - I have my eyes on the brax or maybe scans.. but I will have to add this to my list of considerations...


There's another member on here who pretty much everyone knows and has installed damn near everything that exists that told me the exact same thing. He wants to remain anonymous with that opinion though so as not to start a sh!t show.


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## Elektra

cman said:


> really? That is a bold statement and surprised me. What would you say is your favorite mid range driver of all the ones you tried? I’m building pillars soon this info is very valuable to me - I have my eyes on the brax or maybe scans.. but I will have to add this to my list of considerations...


I have the Brax ML3’s at home and Brax 2.1’s I did a test in my car no EQ same enclosure both Brax ML3 and Xcelsus mids playing I just moved the balance left and right speakers where next to each other and the Xcelsus just sounded a little nicer Brax sounded a little duller to me 

The Utopias sounded a bit too edgy for me but different enclosures before - possible would have had better results if in the same enclosures I have now...

But honestly I have a full Brax car and the cheapest part of my car are the Xcelsus mids even my RCA cables are more expensive than these drivers 

They are def better than the GB25’s 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elektra

Patriot83 said:


> There's another member on here who pretty much everyone knows and has installed damn near everything that exists that told me the exact same thing. He wants to remain anonymous with that opinion though so as not to start a sh!t show.


I think I know who it is... he did say this as well...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elektra

sq-cop said:


> Heavy and well constructed. Still really in a trial phase. These are designed by a prior DLS owner. I have used 3” from Flux, Karma, Hybrid X and Unity, Xcelsus, Audiofrog, Dyn Esotar 2 and AP in the same car. Looking forward to the results of this test and to see how all this stacks up on my car.


Yeah the non waveguide version are surprisingly heavy probably as heavy if not heavier than my Brax 

You must let us know how you like them as well - when are you doing this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cman

Elektra said:


> I think I know who it is... he did say this as well...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Interesting! Thanks for the info that is crazy!! They are a very unique design with the suspension..


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## Ge0

cman said:


> really? That is a bold statement and surprised me. What would you say is your favorite mid range driver of all the ones you tried? I’m building pillars soon this info is very valuable to me - I have my eyes on the brax or maybe scans.. but I will have to add this to my list of considerations...


It's just someone's opinion. Without any explanation whatsoever it doesn't really mean anything to you.

Don't build pillars until you have tried a few midrange options. Choose your favorite and then move on.

I can say from experience that the XXM325 is a driver you may want to try in comparison to others discussed here. It will save you a heck of a lot of money if you like.


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## Ge0

Elektra said:


> Yeah the non waveguide version are surprisingly heavy probably as heavy if not heavier than my Brax
> 
> You must let us know how you like them as well - when are you doing this?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So heavy weight makes a good tweeter? I think your judgement criteria may be off a little.


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## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> So heavy weight makes a good tweeter? I think your judgement criteria may be off a little.


No I think you misreading what I say - it doesn’t feel like a cheap driver is maybe what I should have stated...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JCsAudio

Ge0 said:


> Yep, those Piccolo's are REAL freaking nice .
> 
> Why no Audio Frog? Well, I don't feel like buying them to try them out. If somebody has a spare set they want to send me then I will add them in.


Totally understand that, maybe someone can lend you a pair. All mine are installed and being enjoyed immensely. 

When you do your testing I would suggest, if possible, to try and do it in such a way that you don’t know which drivers are actually playing, or in other words as a blind test. If not, then your mind will play tricks on you and you will pick the one you think is better in your subconscious. 

I would also use a DSP to level match not just SPL level but their exact EQ too to a pre determined EQ curve, or house curve, so any sonic differences don’t skew the results. I did this with a GB12 in a ported box compared to a GB12 in a sealed box, and if it weren’t for the fact that the sealed box had a little more extension below 20 Hz you would not be able to tell the difference between the two. In half cases I had listeners who couldn’t tell the difference between the two. 

Good luck and looking forward to your test.


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## OgreDave

Looking forward to this. Any interest in adding a 2in wideband into the mix? I might be able to make it work depending on timing. Have a couple on the way, need to do my own review as well.


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## Ge0

OgreDave said:


> Looking forward to this. Any interest in adding a 2in wideband into the mix? I might be able to make it work depending on timing. Have a couple on the way, need to do my own review as well.


I'll get back to you on that one. Eventually I'd like to try this. But, I have a lot of speakers to comment on already. I need to catch up before taking on more.


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## cman

Ge0 said:


> It's just someone's opinion. Without any explanation whatsoever it doesn't really mean anything to you.
> 
> Don't build pillars until you have tried a few midrange options. Choose your favorite and then move on.
> 
> I can say from experience that the XXM325 is a driver you may want to try in comparison to others discussed here. It will save you a heck of a lot of money if you like.



Good idea, Im going to probably run with that thought... buy a couple , or maybe a few...for a good deal or used.. I can set them on my dash or test indoors...and sell the ones i dont use. Instead of wasting my time doing permanent installs before I know its something that sounds good to me... Ive done that before building an amp rack, etc.. only to find out the amp has an insanely high noise floor and continued to rip them right out... smh.. lol


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## Catalyx

I don't want to make things more complicated but have these three midranges to lend for the test if you're interested:

Audio Development M35
Brax ML3
Flux Audio M80R


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## Ge0

Catalyx said:


> I don't want to make things more complicated but have these three midranges to lend for the test if you're interested:
> 
> Audio Development M35
> Brax ML3
> Flux Audio M80R


Sent you a PM


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## Ge0

Unfortunately if you want to try the Xcelsus XXM325 midranges I can't recommend buying them locally. It's been two weeks since I sent my defective pair back for replacement. I still do not have a tracking number for the replacement pair. You may be better off buying them through this link:









Xcelsus Audio XXM325 midrange Competition Series


Xcelsus Audio XXM325 midrange Competition Series




www.nonsolospeakers.com


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## DaveG

Ge0 said:


> Unfortunately if you want to try the Xcelsus XXM325 midranges I can't recommend buying them locally. It's been two weeks since I sent my defective pair back for replacement. I still do not have a tracking number for the replacement pair. You may be better off buying them through this link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xcelsus Audio XXM325 midrange Competition Series
> 
> 
> Xcelsus Audio XXM325 midrange Competition Series
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nonsolospeakers.com


Not to mention "locally" quoted me about $200 higher or almost double what I paid from the aforementioned link.


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## Elektra

DaveG said:


> Not to mention "locally" quoted me about $200 higher or almost double what I paid from the aforementioned link.


I paid less than $200 for mine...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DaveG

Elektra said:


> I paid less than $200 for mine...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Me too! I firmly believe in supporting local and am willing to pay a bit more but at the same time I work hard for my money. With a global economy and the internet I would be foolish though to pay double the price! Forum member here quoted me U.S. MSRP $499 but could let me have a pair for $399 plus shipping. No brainer...


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## Ge0

Elektra said:


> I paid less than $200 for mine...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Funny how prices vary wildly between regions. What currency are you quoting (euro, USD, etc..).


----------



## SNCTMPL

I paid $250 shipped for mine on 01/25/2021, they emailed me that they shipped 02/09/21, I keep hoping to see them soon.


----------



## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> Funny how prices vary wildly between regions. What currency are you quoting (euro, USD, etc..).


The brand is new here and I know the importer - he brought one set in and gave it to me for around $180 retail here would be around $350ish 

He also brought in one set of the tweeters both the waveguide and normal version

For me the normal version sounded better but didn’t spend a lot of time on the waveguide.

One thing I have found is balancing the mid - because it’s more brighter/detailed than my Brax ML3’s I find sometimes the Xcelsus mids a little hard to tame 

So far I am still testing and tuning - strangely enough I am liking the 2 way or the 3 way right now... 

I setup my car to have a 2 way setup and 3 way setup... 

Gonna measure the car this weekend again to see why I like the 2way more...

Maybe put the ML3’s back in to reign in the detail...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Clvol1255

Audison Thesis 3.0 v2 are getting crazy good feedback from what I hear


----------



## JCsAudio

Be careful with those aluminum cone drivers. They can fool people with their better than average detail but then can cause listening fatigue because of the distortion/issues from the cone breaking up higher up in the frequency response that is characteristic of aluminum cone drivers. The only thing I can think of that makes this driver different is the spiderless suspension design with the foam support that somehow helps dampen the cone breakup, but that is just a guess obviously. I’m guessing these will require a tweeter than can cross low to avoid this issue.

I still think paper cones have the best compromise between detail, damping, lightness, cost, and strength. It is the ideal speaker cone material.


----------



## Ge0

Round 2 with a new set of Xcelsus midranges. 

Note: Like the last box, this one was not sealed shut. There are no QC stickers on the box either. I did notice a little bit of excessive glue and solder splatter on the drivers. Makes me wonder if these are B-stock 























































They do look better than the first set. Doesn't appear to be anything wrong with them. We'll see


----------



## Ge0

Ohhhh.... And sh!t is about to go down here. Look what came in the mail today. A never ending story of driver reviews 


































These things are absolute beasts. They are huge and surprisingly heavy. Let's see how they sound.


----------



## ocuriel

I’ve never heard horns before. I am very curious how they sound.


----------



## RyuTsuiSen

Let's do this!









Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## JCsAudio

Yup, you blew your budget!


----------



## Isaradia

Ge0 said:


> Let's see how they sound.


much louder than anything else in the review if pushed, I bet, but that's not what I'm curious about, I wanna know if, after eq, they're just as detailed and articulate as top of the line sq mids at "normal sq volumes"


----------



## preston

Seems like it will be a challenge to setup those horns in your demo rig in any way that makes it a fair comparison to the other speakers. The frequency range will also be quite a bit different unless you deliberately run them like a tweeter ? Not to mention those horns are especially designed to be run underneath a dashboard. 
I ran horns for a while, they had advantages and disadvantages.
Meaning, I'm not running them anymore


----------



## Isaradia

preston said:


> Seems like it will be a challenge to setup those horns in your demo rig in any way that makes it a fair comparison to the other speakers. The frequency range will also be quite a bit different unless you deliberately run them like a tweeter ? Not to mention those horns are especially designed to be run underneath a dashboard.
> I ran horns for a while, they had advantages and disadvantages.
> Meaning, I'm not running them anymore


what didn't you like about them?


----------



## Mullings

Isaradia said:


> much louder than anything else in the review if pushed, I bet, but that's not what I'm curious about, I wanna know if, after eq, they're just as detailed and articulate as top of the line sq mids at "normal sq volumes"


I remember listening to a car in the early 2000’s with veritas horns and from my recollection they were fantastic but I wasn’t into sq and could care less about the music the owner was playing for the demo “Tracy Chapman, Anita Baker, Chris Jones and a few more”, I just remembered it sounding very good, I couldn’t even tell that there were horns in the install.


----------



## Mullings

JCsAudio said:


> Be careful with those aluminum cone drivers. They can fool people with their better than average detail but then can cause listening fatigue because of the distortion/issues from the cone breaking up higher up in the frequency response that is characteristic of aluminum cone drivers. The only thing I can think of that makes this driver different is the spiderless suspension design with the foam support that somehow helps dampen the cone breakup, but that is just a guess obviously. I’m guessing these will require a tweeter than can cross low to avoid this issue.
> 
> I still think paper cones have the best compromise between detail, damping, lightness, cost, and strength. It is the ideal speaker cone material.


You’ll hear them the next time you demo my next system John, there’s a lot I want to say but I’ll leave it till all the critics hear these speakers, believe me, these are legit. Nick also thinks that they’re not as good as I say but me and him have a score to settle and these are my choice of speakers from the countless speakers I have in my collection to use in the battle.


----------



## Isaradia

I recently put audison Voce 3"s in a car, would it be worth it to swap them for the xxm325s?


----------



## RyuTsuiSen

Mullings said:


> You’ll hear them the next time you demo my next system John, there’s a lot I want to say but I’ll leave it till all the critics hear these speakers, believe me, these are legit. Nick also thinks that they’re not as good as I say but me and him have a score to settle and these are my choice of speakers from the countless speakers I have in my collection to use in the battle.


Im sorry? Battle? Did I miss something mentioned in this thread or am I just being nosy?

If I am being nosy, I'm sorry lol 

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## preston

Isaradia said:


> what didn't you like about them?


I don't want to derail the thread (and I definitely don't want to get into a battle) so I'll keep it short. I was running them in the 2010 timeframe and they were Eric Steven's full size horns with his mid-price drivers underneath the dash of a Ram truck with pro-audio 8" in the door can't remember the brand but it was Beyma or Faifal or something else I bought from US Speaker (I think Eric recommended them). 
They were crossed at 800Hz and I had subs picking up around 100Hz. 

They had good imaging which was always weird seeing the horns down at your knees and the sound up on the dashboard - however, it wasn't as open or as wide or as high as my experience with dash or pod speakers. They were incredibly clean at high volumes, if you like to turn it up loud they are really good for that - but, I don't listen to my system at extremely loud volumes. 

And I don't mean to say they didn't sound good because they did. And I won't use the word harsh (and yes I tamed the 2-5k region) but they were just never as involving or warm as my other setups. I actually put more blame on the woofers, I never though they sounded as good as a more SQ dedicated woofer and of course you have higher frequencies coming from a flat baffle on the door. If I ran horns again I would simply put in a midrange and use them as wide band tweeter which they might excel at but then again - they never felt like a warm hug. They didn't make me laugh out loud when I listened like some of my other rigs do..


----------



## Ge0

ocuriel said:


> I’ve never heard horns before. I am very curious how they sound.


Freaking amazing depending on your taste and criteria. If you like it loud and crisp with a huge accurate stage you can't go wrong. If you sit and critically listen to chamber music at 85dB then maybe not so much...


----------



## Ge0

RyuTsuiSen said:


> Im sorry? Battle? Did I miss something mentioned in this thread or am I just being nosy?
> 
> If I am being nosy, I'm sorry lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


Stop being such a b!tch LOL!!! Just kidding man. Everyone is curious about these horns since they are so rare these days. Admittedly because they are difficult to install in a car. But when you do. Watch out...

I've been listening to them for a few hours and already have several pages of notes. They are an interesting beast.


----------



## Ge0

preston said:


> I don't want to derail the thread (and I definitely don't want to get into a battle) so I'll keep it short. I was running them in the 2010 timeframe and they were Eric Steven's full size horns with his mid-price drivers underneath the dash of a Ram truck with pro-audio 8" in the door can't remember the brand but it was Beyma or Faifal or something else I bought from US Speaker (I think Eric recommended them).
> They were crossed at 800Hz and I had subs picking up around 100Hz.
> 
> They had good imaging which was always weird seeing the horns down at your knees and the sound up on the dashboard - however, it wasn't as open or as wide or as high as my experience with dash or pod speakers. They were incredibly clean at high volumes, if you like to turn it up loud they are really good for that - but, I don't listen to my system at extremely loud volumes.
> 
> And I don't mean to say they didn't sound good because they did. And I won't use the word harsh (and yes I tamed the 2-5k region) but they were just never as involving or warm as my other setups. I actually put more blame on the woofers, I never though they sounded as good as a more SQ dedicated woofer and of course you have higher frequencies coming from a flat baffle on the door. If I ran horns again I would simply put in a midrange and use them as wide band tweeter which they might excel at but then again - they never felt like a warm hug. They didn't make me laugh out loud when I listened like some of my other rigs do..


I will comment on this in my writeup. Horns have some good and bad traits. If you want warm and fuzzy hugs they are not for you. If you want a wide and accurate stage that can also play to blistering SPL then read on. Heck, it doesn't even have to be loud. The mixture of the wide and accurate sound stage with impossible to beat dynamic range is good enough. If you can sacrifice a small amount of detail...


----------



## preston

> f you sit and critically listen to chamber music at 85dB then maybe not so much...


Ha ha guilty as charged although in my case its jazz music.


----------



## Ge0

preston said:


> Ha ha guilty as charged although in my case its jazz music.


I like my Jazz louder and dynamic. Like an actual club


----------



## SNCTMPL

SNCTMPL said:


> I paid $250 shipped for mine on 01/25/2021, they emailed me that they shipped 02/09/21, I keep hoping to see them soon.


Finally received them today. They are clean and don’t have any extra glue like Geo’s first pair. Happy to finally have them.


----------



## DaveG

Any updates? What tweeters is everyone pairing with the Xcelsus XXM325? Anyone hear their XXT30 tweeters yet? 






XXT30 – XCELSUS AUDIO







www.xcelsus.com.au


----------



## Ge0

DaveG said:


> Any updates? What tweeters is everyone pairing with the Xcelsus XXM325? Anyone hear their XXT30 tweeters yet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> XXT30 – XCELSUS AUDIO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.xcelsus.com.au


Sorry, I received a pair of Stevens Audio HCLD-CompNEO horns right before the XXM325's arrived. I decided to review the horns first since they are such a rare beast and are on loan. I will get back to the XXM325's mid week. I haven't decided if I am going to pair them with my Scan D3004 silks or my new Morel Supremo Piccolos yet.


----------



## DaveG

Ge0 said:


> Sorry, I received a pair of Stevens Audio HCLD-CompNEO horns right before the XXM325's arrived. I decided to review the horns first since they are such a rare beast and are on loan. I will get back to the XXM325's mid week. I haven't decided if I am going to pair them with my Scan D3004 silks or my new Morel Supremo Piccolos yet.


Arrgh... first world problems!


----------



## sq-cop

I just tried the XT30. It’s a heavy tweeter with metal housing. Front unscrews off so you can bury it in a stock pillar or sail location. Very easy to listen to. Works well in about any location. Great detail. I have it firing across the dash with mids in the dash. Sounds very good. Also tried firing up at the window and it was still very listenable without fatigue. On axis is great. Has the appearance of the old DLS Uridium but slightly bigger and better made. In fact I did a Uridium face off with this tweeter and the XT30 had a lot more life to the sound.


----------



## Elektra

DaveG said:


> Any updates? What tweeters is everyone pairing with the Xcelsus XXM325? Anyone hear their XXT30 tweeters yet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> XXT30 – XCELSUS AUDIO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.xcelsus.com.au


I have both versions at home - I do prefer the XXT30 version - compared to my Brax 1.1 tweeter it’s hard to say which is better - I feel the Brax edges it... 

For the money I would say they very decent... as they way cheaper than my Brax - if your not in Brax money the Xcelsus tweeters are not bad...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cman

Elektra said:


> I have both versions at home - I do prefer the XXT30 version - compared to my Brax 1.1 tweeter it’s hard to say which is better - I feel the Brax edges it...
> 
> For the money I would say they very decent... as they way cheaper than my Brax - if your not in Brax money the Xcelsus tweeters are not bad...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Can you possibly give dimensions of the tweeter and the cutout if they are available to you? Xcelsius has no info on their site about size... thanks


----------



## Elektra

cman said:


> Can you possibly give dimensions of the tweeter and the cutout if they are available to you? Xcelsius has no info on their site about size... thanks


They about 4mm larger than the Brax in diameter and use a 50mm cutout


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bbfoto

I'm using the XXM325 combined with the tiny Gladen Aerospace 20 tweeters and lovin' it. 

I chose both due to very limited/tight installation space and also to obtain a minimal vertical center-to-center spacing between mid & tweet.


----------



## cman

bbfoto said:


> I'm using the XXM325 combined with the tiny Gladen Aerospace 20 tweeters and lovin' it.
> 
> I chose both due to very limited/tight installation space and also to obtain a minimal vertical center-to-center spacing between mid & tweet.


Awesome, how do you like the aerospace 20? I’m thinking about buying a set of those myself to test out.. I saw erins review and they have very low distortion.


----------



## bbfoto

cman said:


> Awesome, how do you like the aerospace 20? I’m thinking about buying a set of those myself to test out.. I saw erins review and they have very low distortion.


They're absolutely my favorite "small format" tweeter, EVER. These little guys sound extremely detailed and articulate without being harsh or fatiguing, and they give up very little to the larger 28mm version or the equivalent Scans, etc. I did have a particular use case scenario for them, however...

I was looking for a really good, but small tweeter a few years ago for a compact/stealth/OEM sail panel pod install using a 3"-3.5" midrange & tweeter. The small size of these tweeters are just amazing, and whenever I possibly can, I try to align tweeters vertically above the midrange drivers with the absolute minimum center-to-center spacing. The size of these tweeters makes achieving that A LOT easier, especially in tight spots.

I tested them on the bench with the GB25 which was really nice, but was already using the GB25s in another install, and wanted to try a different pairing.

Erin's test of the Aerospace 20 tweeters is obviously what introduced me to them and ultimately swayed me, but the price here in the U.S. was just redonculous...until I found a German dealer who would ship them to the U.S. for ~$300 usd (exchange rate will cause this to fluctuate a bit). But Erin's test/review was spot on. I really don't think you'll find anything better that is this tiny AND so well built! Though, like Erin's review states, the large/thick pigtail wires on these tweeters is a bit silly and overkill. 16 AWG would have been perfectly adequate for the power these little guys are seeing.

Are some of the larger Beryllium dome tweeters better? Of course. But again, none that I have found are this small, and ultimately I decided that I didn't want to use Beryllium in my car, though I had used the Scan Beryllium tweets in one of my home setups.

I first had the Aerospace 20's combined with the budget-leader Eton Symphony 3-400 / A8 / 25MG 3" magnesium/ceramic cone mids (no longer available but replaced by a Symphony II Hexacone version), and it was a very good pairing, though I found the Eton's were just a bit too limited in output capability for the passband I wanted (at the time).

I then tested the Aerospace 20 "out of car" with the Scan Illumiatior 12MU and was in heaven, but the depth of the 12MU was a no-go for this particular install.  So I went with my 2nd favorite, the Scan 12M, and they were absolutely fantastic in that pairing as well.

I could have lived with that combination, but like a lot of us, I got all googly-eyed over the Focal Utopia 3.5WMs when they were announced, and finally swapped those in. Excellent pairing as well, just a bit of a different character that most days I really loved, but then on other days I didn't.

I was still really happy with that pairing overall (it did a lot of things really well) and I didn't really have the desire to modify the pods again to swap them back to the 12M's or anything else...until Steven Head suggested the XXM325. Damn him, LOL!

Anyway, I've been very impressed with the XXM325 and Aerospace 20 combo, especially considering the overall cost compared to most of the other driver combinations above (disregarding the Eton 3" $180 price for the pair).

If you have the space, you might want to stick with the "standard size" Aerospace 28, or the usual Scan silk domes, Beryllium domes, or the BlieSMa Beryllium domes, etc. I'm surprised by the Aerspace 20's output capability for their size, but that still is a consideration, along with a slightly higher XO, especially if you are trying to maximize their output capability.

Like anything, there are trade-offs. But if you need a TINY tweeter that performs at the highest level, I can highly recommend the Aerospace 20, especially if you are able to get them at a decent deal. And the XXM325/Aerospace 20 is seriously compact package that offers A LOT of SQ punch.

The Aerospace 20 and XXM325 would make a killer 3-way tiny DIY bookshelf speaker for an office/bedroom if combined with a good 5" midwoofer in a small ported enclosure, which I've seriously thought about doing.

But for the money & time invested (drivers, enclosure materials & assembly, XO design & parts/assembly, and amplifier cost), I'm thinking of trying the new Kali IN-5 active concentric-driver studio monitors, just 'cause I'm interested in what they can do.

Anywhoos...HTH.


----------



## Elektra

bbfoto said:


> They're absolutely my favorite "small format" tweeter, EVER. These little guys sound extremely detailed and articulate without being harsh or fatiguing, and they give up very little to the larger 28mm version or the equivalent Scans, etc. I did have a particular use case scenario for them, however...
> 
> I was looking for a really good, but small tweeter a few years ago for a compact/stealth/OEM sail panel pod install using a 3"-3.5" midrange & tweeter. The small size of these tweeters are just amazing, and whenever I possibly can, I try to align tweeters vertically above the midrange drivers with the absolute minimum center-to-center spacing. The size of these tweeters makes achieving that A LOT easier, especially in tight spots.
> 
> I tested them on the bench with the GB25 which was really nice, but was already using the GB25s in another install, and wanted to try a different pairing.
> 
> Erin's test of the Aerospace 20 tweeters is obviously what introduced me to them and ultimately swayed me, but the price here in the U.S. was just redonculous...until I found a German dealer who would ship them to the U.S. for ~$300 usd (exchange rate will cause this to fluctuate a bit). But Erin's test/review was spot on. I really don't think you'll find anything better that is this tiny AND so well built! Though, like Erin's review states, the large/thick pigtail wires on these tweeters is a bit silly and overkill. 16 AWG would have been perfectly adequate for the power these little guys are seeing.
> 
> Are some of the larger Beryllium dome tweeters better? Of course. But again, none that I have found are this small, and ultimately I decided that I didn't want to use Beryllium in my car, though I had used the Scan Beryllium tweets in one of my home setups.
> 
> I first had the Aerospace 20's combined with the budget-leader Eton Symphony 3-400 / A8 / 25MG 3" magnesium/ceramic cone mids (no longer available but replaced by a Symphony II Hexacone version), and it was a very good pairing, though I found the Eton's were just a bit too limited in output capability for the passband I wanted (at the time).
> 
> I then tested the Aerospace 20 "out of car" with the Scan Illumiatior 12MU and was in heaven, but the depth of the 12MU was a no-go for this particular install.  So I went with my 2nd favorite, the Scan 12M, and they were absolutely fantastic in that pairing as well.
> 
> I could have lived with that combination, but like a lot of us, I got all googly-eyed over the Focal Utopia 3.5WMs when they were announced, and finally swapped those in. Excellent pairing as well, just a bit of a different character that most days I really loved, but then on other days I didn't.
> 
> I was still really happy with that pairing overall (it did a lot of things really well) and I didn't really have the desire to modify the pods again to swap them back to the 12M's or anything else...until Steven Head suggested the XXM325. Damn him, LOL!
> 
> Anyway, I've been very impressed with the XXM325 and Aerospace 20 combo, especially considering the overall cost compared to most of the other driver combinations above (disregarding the Eton 3" $180 price for the pair).
> 
> If you have the space, you might want to stick with the "standard size" Aerospace 28, or the usual Scan silk domes, Beryllium domes, or the BlieSMa Beryllium domes, etc. I'm surprised by the Aerspace 20's output capability for their size, but that still is a consideration, along with a slightly higher XO, especially if you are trying to maximize their output capability.
> 
> Like anything, there are trade-offs. But if you need a TINY tweeter that performs at the highest level, I can highly recommend the Aerospace 20, especially if you are able to get them at a decent deal. And the XXM325/Aerospace 20 is seriously compact package that offers A LOT of SQ punch.
> 
> They'd make a killer tiny 3-way DIY bookshelf speaker for an office/bedroom if combined with a good 5" midwoofer in a ported enclosure, which I've seriously thought about doing. But for the money & time (drivers, enclosure materials & assembly, XO design & parts, and amplifier cost, I'm thinking of trying the new Kali IN-5 active concentric driver studio monitors, just 'cause I'm interested in what they can do.
> 
> Anywhoos...HTH.


What crossover point you using for the mids and how much volume do you have?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bbfoto

Elektra said:


> What crossover point you using for the mids and how much volume do you have?


Currently between ~280Hz & 300Hz LR4 acoustical HP, and ~4.0kHz-4.6kHz LR4 LP. You can run them a bit higher, but you'll need to do quite a bit more EQ dancing above ~4.6kHz to tame them.

This is what I've settled on for now, but I am still dialing it in. I'd say I'm getting a solid 90dB+ without strain at the listening position, but I don't usually "crank it" that often.

And a somewhat limited output capability was one of my accepted trades-offs when choosing this particular tweeter/midrange combination in order to fit the install.


----------



## Ge0

I recently evaluated the Gladden 20 with the Focal Utopia 3.5wm. I found that the little Gladden tweeter sounded a lot like the Scan D3004 silk. However, the Gladden was a slight bit sibilant on some female vocals. Don't worry though, this was not too distracting and was definitely not fatiguing.

I'm on my 2nd round of evaluating the XXm325's now. They are a lot like the Focal 3.5wm's but don't have the sharp edge. They give up a minor amount of detail and as a result are easier on your ears. So far they are my price per performance champions. Well, for midranges anyway.

The eBay Alpine SPX PRO tweeters take the price for best price per performance for a set of tweeters,


----------



## Elektra

bbfoto said:


> Currently between ~280Hz & 300Hz LR4 acoustical HP, and ~4.0kHz-4.6kHz LR4 LP. You can run them a bit higher, but you'll need to do quite a bit more EQ dancing above ~4.6kHz to tame them.
> 
> This is what I've settled on for now, but I am still dialing it in. I'd say I'm getting a solid 90dB+ without strain at the listening position, but I don't usually "crank it" that often.
> 
> And a somewhat limited output capability was one of my accepted trades-offs when choosing this particular tweeter/midrange combination in order to fit the install.


I am using 280hz 24LR to 3000hz 24LR - I have been switching between the Brax ML3 and this driver as the Brax is more smooth but the Xcelsus is more detailed and sometimes I get some fatigue with the Xcelsus I can’t seem to balance them properly 

I have the Xcelsus tweeters and maybe they should be paired together...

I’ll build a test cabinets to test them properly with the Xcelsus tweeter 

I should receive the Brax ML1’s on Saturday to replace my Brax 1.1’s 

I don’t expect a big difference between the 1.1 and ML1 so let’s see 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bbfoto

Ge0 said:


> I recently evaluated the Gladden 20 with the Focal Utopia 3.5wm. I found that the little Gladden tweeter sounded a lot like the Scan D3004 silk. However, the Gladden was a slight bit sibilant on some female vocals. Don't worry though, this was not too distracting and was definitely not fatiguing.
> 
> I'm on my 2nd round of evaluating the XXm325's now. They are a lot like the Focal 3.5wm's but don't have the sharp edge. They give up a minor amount of detail and as a result are easier on your ears. So far they are my price per performance champions. Well, for midranges anyway.
> 
> The eBay Alpine SPX PRO tweeters take the price for best price per performance for a set of tweeters,


Agree on the character of the Aerospace 20 and Scans. IME the Aerospace are easy enough to tune to reduce any sibilance. The recording and amplifier makes a difference as well, of course.

I also agree regarding the Alpine SPX-PRO tweeters. They'll get spitty if they are pushed, but have excellent air and detail for the price! You just can't cross them very low or with a shallow slope. But used properly, they are great performers.

I bought a bunch of them with the 6.5" SPX-17PRO & 5.25" SPX-13PRO midwoofers back in the day as "replacements" from PacParts...IIRC, I think the tweeters were $17 Each and the 6.5" midwoofers were $54 Each.

I put the SPX-PRO Alpine tweeters and SPX-17PRO 6.5" midwoofers in a simple passive 2-way + Sub system in a buddy's car (I think it's the one I posted the in-car demo recording of here...use headphones), and it's an extremely good set considering the price from PacParts. 

KILLER midbass, even though everyone use to complain that they were weak in this regard. :shruggs: ???
Of course, the inner & outer door skins were sealed and very well-treated with CLD and CCF, along with the same treatment to the door panels & DIY "fast rings". Mounted to 1/2" thick Corian baffles as well.

I actually had a 1st order HP set at 40Hz between the 6.5" midwoofers and subwoofers, and it was just killer, only using the internal DSP available in the Kenwood DDX9905S.  If I would've had independent T/A of the mids & tweets and L/R EQ, I can't imagine how much better it would've been.

EXCELLENT up-front bass that imaged across the dash. The 6.5" midwoofers would only complain on the really heavy, deep bass stuff, and you couldn't keep anything in the door map pockets without it rattling to hell, so I did end up bumping them back up to ~63Hz.  But for engine-off listening, the 1st order 40Hz HP was better.

/END OF DERAIL, LOL


----------



## Ge0

bbfoto said:


> Agree on the character of the Aerospace 20 and Scans. IME the Aerospace are easy enough to tune to reduce any sibilance. The recording and amplifier makes a difference as well, of course.


They were a little sibilant tuned flat out to about 13K. Yes, does matter what amp and what recording. But, that is common among all the mids and tweeters I am testing. You can "tune" sibilance out of many speakers by making a cut here and there. The better ones like the Gladen's allow you to do this with just a modest amount of reduction.



bbfoto said:


> I also agree regarding the Alpine SPX-PRO tweeters. They'll get spitty if they are pushed, but have excellent air and detail for the price! You just can't cross them very low or with a shallow slope. But used properly, they are great performers.


No, they are not perfect. They do get spitty when pushed hard. I had them crossed at 3KHz using 24dB/octave slopes. When these things are in their proper working zone they are very nice to listen to.



bbfoto said:


> Of course, the inner & outer door skins were sealed and very well-treated with CLD and CCF, along with the same treatment to the door panels & DIY "fast rings". Mounted to 1/2" thick Corian baffles as well.


Where the heck did you score Corian to make baffles from? I tried and tried to get some. Local counter top suppliers would not sell it to me. It had something to do with the proprietary nature of the material and an agreement they had to make with DuPont in order to get it.

But, that was before DuPont's patent expired. Doing a quick search I see you can buy larger scrap chunks off ebay now. Hmmm...


----------



## seafish

The aerospace 20 is also the PERFECT tweeter to pop into the dash/windshield/pillar corner ... in effect horn loading it and making it a little more effcient at getting a little louder. Also while mounted in that "corner pocket", you can still keep it VERY close to the mid by firing across the axis of a 3.5" midrange (prolly even the XXM325 as long as its not too deep for a dash install) mounted in an upfring oem location.


----------



## seafish

Ge0 said:


> Where the heck did you score Corian to make baffles from?
> But, that was before DuPont's patent expired. Doing a quick search I see you can buy larger scrap chunks off ebay now. Hmmm...


Yes...larger scraps from ebay are the way to go !!!
It is also possible to thermoform Corian baffles.


----------



## Clvol1255

@Geo idk man. Lol This test to me has to be everything not WM 3.5 playing for 2nd place. These things are absolutely amazing and detailed with absolutely zero harshness that require very little cutting. 
That’s sort of a joke but sort of not. I know their are other really good speakers out there but Jesus Christ if they’re better than these I’d HAVE to hear it


----------



## Ge0

Clvol1255 said:


> @Geo idk man. Lol This test to me has to be everything not WM 3.5 playing for 2nd place. These things are absolutely amazing and detailed with absolutely zero harshness that require very little cutting.
> That’s sort of a joke but sort of not. I know their are other really good speakers out there but Jesus Christ if they’re better than these I’d HAVE to hear it


Grab yourself a set of E430's


----------



## bbfoto

Ge0 said:


> Where the heck did you score Corian to make baffles from? I tried and tried to get some. Local counter top suppliers would not sell it to me. It had something to do with the proprietary nature of the material and an agreement they had to make with DuPont in order to get it.
> 
> But, that was before DuPont's patent expired. Doing a quick search I see you can buy larger scrap chunks off ebay now. Hmmm...


Yup, I scored A BUNCH of scrap Corian years ago from an eBay seller that had mostly kitchen & bathroom counter-top "sink cutout" scraps. The seller would pack as many as he could fit into a large USPS Priority Mail Flat Rate Box for $25-$30. I think there were 7 or 8 in each box and I purchased at least 3 boxes. Only have a few left now.



Ge0 said:


> No, they are not perfect. They do get spitty when pushed hard. I had them crossed at 3KHz using 24dB/octave slopes. When these things are in their proper working zone they are very nice to listen to.


Yeah, that's about their HP sweet spot. Any lower than 3k or a shallower slope and they begin to lose their special sauce, LOL. If the midrange drivers would play nice, I'd usually bump that up a bit to 3.2k-3.4k.

The other great tweeter value IMO is the SB Acoustics SB29RDNC-C000-4, but unfortunately it's HUGE. IIRC, Jim Becker won 2015 MECA Finals with them in his RAM?

Anyhow...Happy Testing.


----------



## Clvol1255

Damn that’s what @clintsal went with over the WM3.5” but just for the power handling ability and can’t do that right now with a set of TBMs on there way


----------



## MythosDreamLab

Clvol1255 said:


> @Geo idk man. Lol This test to me has to be everything not WM 3.5 playing for 2nd place. These things are absolutely amazing and detailed with absolutely zero harshness that require very little cutting.
> That’s sort of a joke but sort of not. I know their are other really good speakers out there but Jesus Christ if they’re better than these I’d HAVE to hear it


LOL, wanna buy the Audison Thesis TH Voce 3.0 II's I have for sale? They may very well be better than the Focals??? (_I'm not sure)_


----------



## Clvol1255

Nah I’m happy but thanks lol


----------



## Ge0

MythosDreamLab said:


> LOL, wanna buy the Audison Thesis TH Voce 3.0 II's I have for sale? They may very well be better than the Focals??? (_I'm not sure)_


I've been curious about them. Bert likes them. However, I won't spend that type of money without hearing them. Wanna send them to me for the midrange showdown I'm doing? I may like them so much I'd buy them. Oh, but at that point they would be used


----------



## JCsAudio

I had the SB Acoustics SB29RDNC-C000-4 which was my favorite budget tweeter for a 2-way anyway because they could be crossed to a midwoofer at 2000 Hertz. Two of my three vehicles are three way now and use mostly all AF GB. I wish someone could put a set of AudioFrog GB25 into that mix there. They are the gold standard for me mostly because they are what I know well but also a lot of people on here know them well too. I believe they are also very good bang for the $$$. I've heard the Focal Focal Utopia 3.5wm which were very good but different. Long term I think I would still prefer the GB25 but my time with them was very limited and I didn't tune the car so I cant say that with certainty, but still they are very good. 

I still think Aluminum cone drivers are a compromise like any other cone material. There is no perfect material but paper comes close. Everyone seems to be wowed by an aluminum cone drivers great detail but long term they can cause listening fatigue because of the high frequency cone breakup, which is characteristic of aluminum cone drivers. This excelsus driver though is unique with its spiderless suspension which may help damp the aluminum cone so it can play higher with less distortion from the cone breakup? 

I think Erin H needs to get his hands on a pair maybe as I see this thing gaining traction as the next Forum Bonner midrange driver and I'd hate to see a wave of these in the classifieds later on after people realize they are not as good as they thought. 

Only time will tell.


----------



## MythosDreamLab

Ge0 said:


> I've been curious about them. Bert likes them. However, I won't spend that type of money without hearing them. Wanna send them to me for the midrange showdown I'm doing? I may like them so much I'd buy them. Oh, but at that point they would be used


I gotta say, I could not choose between sending to you to test and keeping them sealed to sell as new, so I consulted the Magic 8-Ball and it it came up as: _"NFW"_

lol


----------



## cman

JCsAudio said:


> I had the SB Acoustics SB29RDNC-C000-4 which was my favorite budget tweeter for a 2-way anyway because they could be crossed to a midwoofer at 2000 Hertz. Two of my three vehicles are three way now and use mostly all AF GB. I wish someone could put a set of AudioFrog GB25 into that mix there. They are the gold standard for me mostly because they are what I know well but also a lot of people on here know them well too. I believe they are also very good bang for the $$$. I've heard the Focal Focal Utopia 3.5wm which were very good but different. Long term I think I would still prefer the GB25 but my time with them was very limited and I didn't tune the car so I cant say that with certainty, but still they are very good.
> 
> I still think Aluminum cone drivers are a compromise like any other cone material. There is no perfect material but paper comes close. Everyone seems to be wowed by an aluminum cone drivers great detail but long term they can cause listening fatigue because of the high frequency cone breakup, which is characteristic of aluminum cone drivers. This excelsus driver though is unique with its spiderless suspension which may help damp the aluminum cone so it can play higher with less distortion from the cone breakup?
> 
> I think Erin H needs to get his hands on a pair maybe as I see this thing gaining traction as the next Forum Bonner midrange driver and I'd hate to see a wave of these in the classifieds later on after people realize they are not as good as they thought.
> 
> Only time will tell.



I’m really loving my Audiofrog subwoofers (GB12) and I’ve heard the gb25s and gb60’s - as well as seen objective data and subjective reviews. I’m all in on the subs, midbass and midrange... but the tweeters are kind of bright for my taste. They are amazingly clear and detailed... but I prefer the sound of a tweeter with a lower FS... the gb10s are good but just not my favorites by any means...I had gb15’s before that I liked more than my gb10s but still didn’t “wow” me like the rest of the GB line does... I haven’t tried too much EQ work though... that might be able to open them up... how do you like your frog tweets?


----------



## Ge0

MythosDreamLab said:


> I gotta say, I could not choose between sending to you to test and keeping them sealed to sell as new, so I consulted the Magic 8-Ball and it it came up as: _"NFW"_
> 
> lol


Ok. Then I guess that's settled. 😜


----------



## JCsAudio

cman said:


> I’m really loving my Audiofrog subwoofers (GB12) and I’ve heard the gb25s and gb60’s - as well as seen objective data and subjective reviews. I’m all in on the subs, midbass and midrange... but the tweeters are kind of bright for my taste. They are amazingly clear and detailed... but I prefer the sound of a tweeter with a lower FS... the gb10s are good but just not my favorites by any means...I had gb15’s before that I liked more than my gb10s but still didn’t “wow” me like the rest of the GB line does... I haven’t tried too much EQ work though... that might be able to open them up... how do you like your frog tweets?


I have both GB15 and GB10. I love the GB15 which used to be paired with my GB60 in my CX5 but now is in the Sienna and about to be paired with GS690. The GB10 I think is an awesome tweeter when used in a three way and I have nothing bad to say about it. When I first got it I was very impressed with it and I'm still satisficed with it paired with my GB25. The only tweeter I have heard that I think might have a tiny edge is the Morel piccolo tweeter, which I listened to for hours when I tuned someone's car with it but they were on axis and my GB10 are not so not apples to apples really. That Morel tweeter is nirvana to my ears. He also had the matching Morel midwoofers and man those are nice!


----------



## cman

JCsAudio said:


> I have both GB15 and GB10. I love the GB15 which used to be paired with my GB60 in my CX5 but now is in the Sienna and about to be paired with GS690. The GB10 I think is an awesome tweeter when used in a three way and I have nothing bad to say about it. When I first got it I was very impressed with it and I'm still satisficed with it paired with my GB25. The only tweeter I have heard that I think might have a tiny edge is the Morel piccolo tweeter, which I listened to for hours when I tuned someone's car with it but they were on axis and my GB10 are not so not apples to apples really. That Morel tweeter is nirvana to my ears. He also had the matching Morel midwoofers and man those are nice!


Interesting.. I will have to try re aiming and EQing my frogs.. funny you say that about morel...... I just bought some morel home tweeters and they are amazing.. some of my favorite i've ever heard... But the only morel midrange that interests me is the actual cone carbon midrange.. not the dome.. and they are like $800... if i could get a deal on some I would snag them to compare to some others... but i have a hard time paying full retail.. but the new carbon mid, the alto tweeter which is like a mini piccolo almost.. and the carbon midbass all look pretty cool i wonder if they sound as good as they look.


----------



## Ge0

*Focal TBXP Beryllium dome tweeters paired with Utopia 3.5wm midrange*



MythosDreamLab said:


> Geo: Love to hear how this tests out compared all the others you have done!


I have about 4 hours of listening time on the TBXP's so far. All I can say is WOW! I wasn't expecting them to sound so good after not caring much for the ScanSpeak D3004 Beryllium dome tweeter. Well, the French guys have their sh!t figured out. These are MUCH smoother than the Scans while still offering just as much detail. They also present a very nice soundstage.

My current champ is the Morel Supremo Piccolo V2. This TBXP might just dethrone it. TBXP is slightly less detailed. They create more stage width at the expense of giving up depth (less of a 3D image than the Piccolos). For the most part both tweets go neck in neck. The V2 is slightly smoother. It's going to take a lot of evaluating to pick a winner.

Oh, and I haven't even tried the TBM's yet. Hopefully that's coming in the next 2 weeks.


----------



## cman

Ge0 said:


> *Focal TBXP Beryllium Dome Tweeters*
> 
> 
> 
> I have about 4 hours of listening time on the TBXP's so far. All I can say is WOW! I wasn't expecting them to sound so good after not caring much for the ScanSpeak D3004 Beryllium dome tweeter. Well, the French guys have their sh!t figured out. These are MUCH smoother than the Scans while still offering just as much detail. They also present a very nice soundstage.
> 
> My current champ is the Morel Supremo Piccolo V2. This TBXP might just dethrone it. TBXP is slightly more detailed and creates more stage depth (kind of like a 3D image). Both tweets go neck in neck. The V2 is slightly smoother. It's going to take a lot of evaluating to pick a winner.
> 
> Oh, and I haven't even tried the TBM's yet. Hopefully that's coming in the next 2 weeks.


That's where those TBXP's went?? LOL - you know I wonder how much different the TBM really is from the TBXP but I guess you can give us a good opinion on that considering how many great tweeters you have auditioned. This is really great info, I am in the middle of speaker shopping right now myself... Currently I'm about set on GB60, GB25 (or morel carbon, still midrange shopping..) and the tweet I have not figured out yet at all.. I am highly considering one of these now to audition myself.. I will have to take a look at the dims, is the Piccolo the largest physically?

Thanks for this info, I know I appreciate it very much, It is hard to know what to think sometimes when people say something sounds so amazing reading reviews... i always ask.. what is your reference? what else have you heard? I know alot of it is subjective but it helps greatly in my opinion when said reviewer has heard many other great options side by side and is not just making a blind statement. Cant wait to hear more feedback!


----------



## Clvol1255

I told you that you wouldn’t be disappointed in the TBXP! I agree with everything you’ve wrote on the TBXP tweeters


----------



## Ge0

cman said:


> That's where those TBXP's went?? LOL - you know I wonder how much different the TBM really is from the TBXP but I guess you can give us a good opinion on that considering how many great tweeters you have auditioned. This is really great info, I am in the middle of speaker shopping right now myself... Currently I'm about set on GB60, GB25 (or morel carbon, still midrange shopping..) and the tweet I have not figured out yet at all.. I am highly considering one of these now to audition myself.. I will have to take a look at the dims, is the Piccolo the largest physically?
> 
> Thanks for this info, I know I appreciate it very much, It is hard to know what to think sometimes when people say something sounds so amazing reading reviews... i always ask.. what is your reference? what else have you heard? I know alot of it is subjective but it helps greatly in my opinion when said reviewer has heard many other great options side by side and is not just making a blind statement. Cant wait to hear more feedback!


The Piccolo's are larger tweeters but not nearly as large as full format drivers. 

Go back a page or two. I list the tweeters I have had my hands on. 

I'm about to add the Piccolo 1st generation, Stevens Audio Comp Neo HCLD horn's, and the TBXP's to that list


----------



## MythosDreamLab

Ge0 said:


> *Focal TBXP Beryllium dome tweeters paired with Utopia 3.5wm midrange*
> 
> 
> 
> I have about 4 hours of listening time on the TBXP's so far. All I can say is WOW! I wasn't expecting them to sound so good after not caring much for the ScanSpeak D3004 Beryllium dome tweeter. Well, the French guys have their sh!t figured out. These are MUCH smoother than the Scans while still offering just as much detail. They also present a very nice soundstage.
> 
> My current champ is the Morel Supremo Piccolo V2. This TBXP might just dethrone it. TBXP is slightly more detailed and creates more stage depth (kind of like a 3D image). Both tweets go neck in neck. The V2 is slightly smoother. It's going to take a lot of evaluating to pick a winner.
> 
> Oh, and I haven't even tried the TBM's yet. Hopefully that's coming in the next 2 weeks.



That's great to hear! I am very much loving mine. I was supposed to have my Thesis Violino's installed (in the rear) last Friday, but one of the two installers had a medical emergency and I'm now pushed out to March 18. Then I will be able to compare my TBXP's (front) to the Violinos's (rear). With Utopia (2-ohm) Woofers in both (front & rear) doors and all fed from the same (DSP) Amp. It will REALLY suck if I like the Violino's more (lol)...

As I recall from the music thread, we don't listen to the same stuff, but if you can get a copy of the remastered Dark Side of the Moon (Pink Floyd) there are a number of songs that just KILL on the TBXP's...! Songs include: _On the Run_, and the beginning of both _Time_ (Clocks and Alarms) and _Money_ (Coins and Cash Registers) are all awesome tweeter testers!

Cheers!


----------



## Clvol1255

I’ve heard exactly those songs as I’m a big Roger Waters/Pink Floyd fan.... WOW. To be fair the Violinos were supposed to complete with TBM tweeters more so than TBXP but I’d still be surprised if they sound better than the Focals

Acoustical alchemy is another band that’ll test the tweeters
Tool-chocolate chip trip also amongst many others


----------



## Ge0

MythosDreamLab said:


> That's great to hear! I am very much loving mine. I was supposed to have my Thesis Violino's installed (in the rear) last Friday, but one of the two installers had a medical emergency and I'm now pushed out to March 18. Then I will be able to compare my TBXP's (front) to the Violinos's (rear). With Utopia (2-ohm) Woofers in both (front & rear) doors and all fed from the same (DSP) Amp. It will REALLY suck if I like the Violino's more (lol)...
> 
> As I recall from the music thread, we don't listen to the same stuff, but if you can get a copy of the remastered Dark Side of the Moon (Pink Floyd) there are a number of songs that just KILL on the TBXP's...! Songs include: _On the Run_, and the beginning of both _Time_ (Clocks and Alarms) and _Money_ (Coins and Cash Registers) are all awesome tweeter testers!
> 
> Cheers!


I grew up loving Pink Floyd. I have Dark Side of the Moon on Dolby Digital 5.1. I'll need to check out your remastered version.

Oh, and look up head related transfer function (HTRF). The speakers in back are going to sound different based on location alone. It won't be an apples to apples comparison between the tweets front to rear.


----------



## ocuriel

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in on price to performance tweeters that IMO take the cake. Morel Tempo. Can be had in the 100ish range for the pair. I can’t think of anything in its price range that can beat it. I owned the SPX Pro as well and they are a gem, but their downfall is they can’t get very loud.

I ordered a 2nd pair of the Tempos so if you want I can send them out for a listen.


----------



## Petererc

Gonna jump in here, have been watching this thread and have some fun tunes to try. Easy All Stars, Dub Side of The Moon. Then check out Kitchen Dwellers, Pigs ( three different ways) they f’n nailed it..
What about these mids?


Scanspeak Discovery 10F/8414-00 3.5" Full Range


Just switched out md100 with Alpine knock off, gotta get some time on them, see how they do. Using mw160 in sealed pod from 400-3k


----------



## Ge0

Petererc said:


> Gonna jump in here, have been watching this thread and have some fun tunes to try. Easy All Stars, Dub Side of The Moon. Then check out Kitchen Dwellers, Pigs ( three different ways) they f’n nailed it..
> What about these mids?
> 
> 
> Scanspeak Discovery 10F/8414-00 3.5" Full Range
> 
> 
> Just switched out md100 with Alpine knock off, gotta get some time on them, see how they do. Using mw160 in sealed pod from 400-3k


I evaluated the 4ohm version of the 10F's. That is what I currently have installed in my vehicle.

The writeup is coming. I promise.


----------



## Rich.E.Rich

Ge0 said:


> *Focal TBXP Beryllium dome tweeters paired with Utopia 3.5wm midrange*
> 
> 
> 
> I have about 4 hours of listening time on the TBXP's so far. All I can say is WOW! I wasn't expecting them to sound so good after not caring much for the ScanSpeak D3004 Beryllium dome tweeter. Well, the French guys have their sh!t figured out. These are MUCH smoother than the Scans while still offering just as much detail. They also present a very nice soundstage.
> 
> My current champ is the Morel Supremo Piccolo V2. This TBXP might just dethrone it. TBXP is slightly more detailed and creates more stage depth (kind of like a 3D image). Both tweets go neck in neck. The V2 is slightly smoother. It's going to take a lot of evaluating to pick a winner.
> 
> Oh, and I haven't even tried the TBM's yet. Hopefully that's coming in the next 2 weeks.


I love my TBXP tweeters! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings

Ge0 said:


> *Focal TBXP Beryllium dome tweeters paired with Utopia 3.5wm midrange*
> 
> 
> 
> I have about 4 hours of listening time on the TBXP's so far. All I can say is WOW! I wasn't expecting them to sound so good after not caring much for the ScanSpeak D3004 Beryllium dome tweeter. Well, the French guys have their sh!t figured out. These are MUCH smoother than the Scans while still offering just as much detail. They also present a very nice soundstage.
> 
> My current champ is the Morel Supremo Piccolo V2. This TBXP might just dethrone it. TBXP is slightly more detailed and creates more stage depth (kind of like a 3D image). Both tweets go neck in neck. The V2 is slightly smoother. It's going to take a lot of evaluating to pick a winner.
> 
> Oh, and I haven't even tried the TBM's yet. Hopefully that's coming in the next 2 weeks.


When I saw people loving those scan D3004 berylliums I was thinking that maybe my ears aren’t working properly, I owned a pair for a mere 1 song and sold them right away. The Grandioso tweeters are probably the easiest on the ears, when I had them installed I can remember listening at or near max volume at all times.


----------



## Ge0

Mullings said:


> When I saw people loving those scan D3004 berylliums I was thinking that maybe my ears aren’t working properly, I owned a pair for a mere 1 song and sold them right away. The Grandioso tweeters are probably the easiest on the ears, when I had them installed I can remember listening at or near max volume at all times.


I couldn't agree with you more Kevin. I was so excited to try a set of Scan D3004 Be. A few songs in I'm like WTF? These things sound like an angry German! They were very detailed but just threw it in your face in a rather non-polite manor. Like a robot trying to sing a love ballad. I just couldn't get into them either. Not after hearing the Piccolo's. And now the Focal's...


----------



## bbfoto

Mullings said:


> When I saw people loving those scan D3004 berylliums I was thinking that maybe my ears aren’t working properly, I owned a pair for a mere 1 song and sold them right away. The Grandioso tweeters are probably the easiest on the ears, when I had them installed I can remember listening at or near max volume at all times.





Ge0 said:


> I couldn't agree with you more Kevin. I was so excited to try a set of Scan D3004 Be. A few songs in I'm like WTF? These things sound like an angry German! They were very detailed but just threw it in your face in a rather non-polite manor. Like a robot trying to sing a love ballad. I just couldn't get into them either. Not after hearing the Piccolo's. And now the Focal's...


Ha! I had purchased a pair through Erin's group buy, and then found out that a local home audio DIY loudspeaker building buddy had a used pair he suggested I test before committing to a build/install with them.  I had the same basic impression. I liked the detail for a bit, too. But ultimately they're just too forward/forced/Angry German, LOL. I sold the BNIB pair I got from Erin soon after, haha. I do like the SB Beryllium better, and would like to hear the BliesMa.

Now, the Utopia TBM's are really nice. I haven't heard the TBXP's, so I'm interested in the differences that you find between them. And I've only used the old school Morel Supremo, and have listened to the Gen 1 Piccolos, which were both very nice but it's been a while.


Well Crikey, I should have sent this sooner... Learning recently that you liked those Melody Gardot tracks got me thinking that you'd probably really like Steph Johnson as well (if you didn't already know of her via her _Steph Johnson Trio_ "_Nature Girl_" album).

Check out some of her tracks and a few others in the D/L Link below that I'll keep live for a few days...

If you enjoy them, please help support her if you can via an iTunes/Apple Music download or small PayPal "CD" cost donation to _*stephjohnsonband*_* AT gmail DOT *_*com*_









Nature Girl by Steph Johnson


Album · 2013 · 11 Songs




music.apple.com





She and her husband, Rob Thorsen (an upright acoustic bass player) are San Diego locals and the music biz has been really, really rough on musicians that rely mostly on local live gigs for their income. FYI, she's got a new album out as well at Steph Johnson | San Diego Jazz Vocalist, Director, Tedx Speaker

bbfoto DIYMA - Ultimate Audio System Evaluation Tracks - Ge0 Hi-End Speaker Test


----------



## Ge0

bbfoto said:


> Ha! I had purchased a pair through Erin's group buy, and then found out that a local home audio DIY loudspeaker building buddy had a used pair he suggested I test before committing to a build/install with them.  I had the same basic impression. I liked the detail for a bit, too. But ultimately they're just too forward/forced/Angry German, LOL. I sold the BNIB pair I got from Erin soon after, haha. I do like the SB Beryllium better, and would like to hear the BliesMa.
> 
> Now, the Utopia TBM's are really nice. I haven't heard the TBXP's, so I'm interested in the differences that you find between them. And I've only used the old school Morel Supremo, and have listened to the Gen 1 Piccolos, which were both very nice but it's been a while.
> 
> 
> Well Crikey, I should have sent this sooner... Learning recently that you liked those Melody Gardot tracks got me thinking that you'd probably really like Steph Johnson as well (if you didn't already know of her via her _Steph Johnson Trio_ "_Nature Girl_" album).
> 
> Check out some of her tracks and a few others in the D/L Link below that I'll keep live for a few days...
> 
> If you enjoy them, please help support her if you can via an iTunes/Apple Music download or small PayPal "CD" cost donation to _*stephjohnsonband*_* AT gmail DOT *_*com*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nature Girl by Steph Johnson
> 
> 
> Album · 2013 · 11 Songs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> music.apple.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She and her husband, Rob Thorsen (an upright acoustic bass player) are San Diego locals and the music biz has been really, really rough on musicians that rely mostly on local live gigs for their income. FYI, she's got a new album out as well at Steph Johnson | San Diego Jazz Vocalist, Director, Tedx Speaker
> 
> bbfoto DIYMA - Ultimate Audio System Evaluation Tracks - Ge0 Hi-End Speaker Test


Thanks again B!!!


----------



## Ge0

*REVIEW: Focal Utopia TBXP beryllium dome tweeter paired with 3.5wm midrange*










I wrapped the tweeter body in closed cell foam to match hole size for Morel Supremo Piccolo









Then, press fit the tweeter into the baffle. Note: the 3.5wm's are mounted at an angle for a reason here. The original screw holes were getting pretty worn out in the baffle from swapping drivers in and out. I can't install threaded inserts. Other 3.5" drivers hole patterns may be up to 1mm off. Wood gives a little and helps compensate for that.


















I don't know why, but when I hit Capture in REW the Y scale reverts back to 10dB per division. Tweeters and midrange measure flat +/-2dB throughout the audible spectrum.









I spent a week evaluating the Morel Supremo Piccolo V1 and V2 in comparison to the Scan D3004 silk tweeters. From there I moved directly to the Focal TBXP’s. So, I’m going to block them all together in this review. I don’t make much mention of the Piccolo V1 here. That’s because it sounds very close to the Scan D3004 silk in my opinion so I am not going to separate them here.

My very first impression after listening to Dave Brubeck’s “Three to Get Ready” on the TBXP’s was "did I still have the Piccolo V2’s hooked up"? These tweets are also very detailed and articulate. Wow. Maybe even more so than the Piccolo’s. But, do they keep their composure as well? We’ll see.

The TBXP’s seem a little more nimble than the Piccolo V2’s. Meaning they can resolve even more detail. They were a tad bit hot on Paul Desmond’s solo in “Take Five” so I knocked the tweeters gain level down -1dB. They then blended better with nothing that stood out. They still remained super detailed. I could hear Paul Desmond’s spit sizzle on his sax reed during “Three to Get Ready”. The Cymbal taps at the beginning and end of the song are as articulate as they are on the Piccolo V2’s. This is going to be a tough comparison.

The TBXP’s are slightly more active / spitty on Chris Cornell’s “Call Me a Dog”. But, they cast a more focused center image and a stage that extends a little wider than the V2’s. Don’t get me wrong, the TBXP’s are still extremely musical. I’m just knit picking here. The TBXP’s are still impressing me.

The TBXP’s are a much more natural sounding Beryllium tweeter than the Scan D3004 Be. I was hesitant to try another Beryllium tweeter after evaluating the Scan D3004 Be but the TBXP’s impress me so far.

Playing Calixico’s Crumble I noticed a slightly more holographic image with the TBXP’s over the V2’s. Tonality and detail for this recording were pretty much the same. In “Dub Latina” the TBXP’s brought a little more of the background percussion forward vs. the Piccolo’s. I’m 50/50 regarding this. While it sounded more engaging is that what the artists intended? 

You’ll notice I’m REALLY nit picking here. In “El Picador” the trumpet’s were strong and powerful. The background guitar was clear and uninterrupted even though trumpets were blaring all around it. It was very engaging listening to this tune through the TBXP’s. The TBXP’s played “Fade” tonally accurate and with fine detail. However, that extra bit of detail made the song sound a bit more active and forward than what I think is intended. The Piccolo V2’s do a better job of balancing the smooth laid back tone of this song. They kept the background effects more “in the background” than the TBXP’s. In comparison I think the Scan D3004 silk’s play back this song perfect.

“Black Light” was pretty much a tie between the V2 and TBXP. However, the train horn in the background was so vivid and detailed on the TBXP’s I could nearly tell what model of locomotive it was. That’s kind of cool. It helps the song sound more realistic

Both Days of the New tracks sounded equally as well between the V2 and TBXP. However, the guitar strums on the first and last 30 seconds of the song “Now” sounded especially lifelike on the TBXP’s. It’s like the left and right guitarists were sitting right there. It’s kind of spooky yet engaging.

The very beginning of Igorrr’s Cheval is fun as he is live recording himself futzing with an accordion. I think this is recorded in stereo. It sounds like you are in the room with him. That and at the very end when the Italian Opera Singer comes in. It sounds pretty awesome on the TBXP’s. The rest of the song is just recorded loops and synth. The TBXP is as good as any other here.

Joshua Redman’s “Invocation” sounded especially engaging on the TBXP’s They really lit up the tone of his Sax and helped create a holographic soundstage full of background instrument and percussion detail. Instruments were arranged in 3D space. The V2’s have the same tonality and much of the detail. But, they don’t create a soundstage quite like this.

The same goes for The Kings of Leon “Closer”. The TBXP’s helped create a more spacious soundscape than the Piccolo V2 and my reference Scan D3004 silks. All three tweets have similar voice / tonality. The V2’s and TBXP’s have superior detail. But so far only the TBXP’s (with the 3.5wm) can produce a more realistic 3D soundscape.

The sound effects on Knife Party’s “Centipede are pretty fun to listen to on the TBXP’s. The sound clips come alive with these tweeters staging and accuracy. From The opening elevator “ding” to the creeping, crawling, slithering, and chewing centipedes. Kind of makes your spine tingle.

Miles Davis “All Blues” and “So What” were pretty equal between the V2, Scan D3304 silk, and the TBXP. The only thing that stood out was the TBXP tended to accentuate the right channel cymbal strikes more than the other tweeters I’ve tried. This song reminded me of playback with the Scan D3004 Be. They brought background detail to the front where it did not belong. Sure, this had laser precision but distracted from the solo’s a little more than I cared for. So far this is the only thing the TBXP’s have done that really annoyed me. Sure, I can cut the gain on the tweeters another -2db. However, this negatively affects the tonality of the piano and horns.

Moving on to the trio of Nirvana UnPlugged tunes in my song list. The TBXP’s did a great job here. Although, they did make Kurt’s voice seem a little sharp in comparison to the V2’s or the Scan D3004 silks. Sharp not necessarily being a bad thing, just different. His voice sounds just a bit softer on the soft dome tweeters (go figure). The softer voicing seems to fit his personality on stage better.

As I figured, the TBXP’s did well playing Pantera’s “This Love”. The opening guitar line and percussion was especially detailed and pleasing. Again, more of a full bodied 3D like stage. The real action doesn’t happen until 1:15 into the song where Philip’s vocal’s kick in. The TBXP’s did a great job replicating Philip Anselmo’s growling voice and shredding scream’s. Metal guitar sounded sharp and crisp. Cymbal crashes got a tad harsh at high volume. But, let’s put it in perspective. I was absolutely blaring my music . The Piccolo V2’s and Scan D3004 silk’s also do a great job playing back this song. However, the TBXP’s were slightly more crisp.

After the last several tracks I decided to try something. I was letting the TBXP’s run flat out to 20KHz. So, I inserted a -1dB Q=1 hi-shelving filter at 8KHz. This took the sharp edge off the tweeters without sacrificing any of the clarity in the upper midrange. They now sound more perfectly balanced with a nice and gentle high frequency roll-off.

The TBXP’s behaved very close to the Piccolo V2’s throughout all of my Patricia Barber set. There were a few notable exceptions during the songs “Like JT” and “Constantinople” where I thought the TBXP’s brought out even more hidden details. But, I won’t go into that much further. As I’ve already stated the TBXP’s are slightly more detailed in general.

The TBXP’s did help enhance stage width and presence in PJ Harvey’s tunes “Missed” and “Rub It Until It Bleeds”. Presence meaning you could easily distinguish each musician on the stage. There was a 3D sense about the stage. Or, I could use my old term “holographic” stage. Most of this comes from the superior performance of the 3.5wm midrange. However, the right set of tweeters enhances or hinders the affect. The TBXP’s boost it.

Perhaps the best playback I’ve heard of Rage Against the Machines “Killing in the Name”. In the starting bass line you could hear the bassist fingers slide off the strings. The guitar lines stayed crisp and hummed along perfectly even as I turned the volume up to 11. There was no overhang or ringing when the guitars suddenly stopped and started. Zach’s voice remained clear and crisp over Tom’s wailing lead guitar. Just the way a loud rock tune should be played back. The same song on the Piccolo V2’s was tonally as accurate and had a similar amount of detail. However, they were not as dynamic. As a matter of fact, the Scan D3004 silks were more dynamic than the V2’s playing this song. The only thing that can compete is this same song played back with the HCLD CompNeo horn’s. But, those are an entirely different beast with an entirely different presentation.

Sonic Youth’s “Shoot” was also fun to listen to. This is an intentionally ugly song that the TBXP’s helped keep true to nature. Thurston’s guitar line buzzed with only the distortion artifacts he intentionally added. His guitar was powerful, clear, and mesmerizing. The percussion remained crisp and clear even over the guitar line distortion and chaos. Kim’s gutty / gritty grunge vocals remained vivid and focused. Her bass line was neatly tucked in the background and could be clearly heard even when the guitar line made it difficult. This song can easily just blend together on lesser speakers. The TBXP’s helped keep each instrument in the background relevant. Cymbal clicks at the very end were [email protected] right lifelike. The song had a little more clarity played back on the TBXP’s vs. the Piccolo V2’s or the Scan D3004 silk tweeters.

The TBXP’s did a great job supporting a huge and spacious soundscape during the Thievery Corporation “The Elis Affair” and “Thunderball - the Panther”. The soundstage extended well beyond the speakers themselves. For instance, the bongos, wood block, and bells in “The Elis Affair” seem to come from the far off left distance. During these songs there are many percussion and synth effects going on simultaneously. The TBXP’s played them all back distinctly and crystal clear. All with the exception of the cymbal crashes (which are just low res samples). The Piccolo V2’s and Scan D3004 silk’s also played the same content back flawlessly. But, the TBXP’s helped set the soundscape depth and width of the field a little better. This is easy to test by turning the tweeters on and off again during playback. The vastness of the soundstage collapses.

The song “Brooklyn Funk Esse” sounded as beautiful on the TBXP’s as it does the Piccolo V2’s or the Scan D3304 silk’s. Most of this song is sampled and lacks lifelike detail. The trumpet line is about the only thing recorded live. It remained soft and focused. Likewise, the Flute solo in “Definition” was very much the same. Although, the guy on the flute got a little aggressive at times (if there is such a thing as a guy getting aggressive playing flute  ). These two tunes are some of the few songs that resulted in an all out tie between tweeters.

Tool’s “Chocolate Chip Trip” was replicated fairly evenly among all three tweeters in this comparison. That is until the volume was increased significantly. I felt the TBXP’s did a superior job staying crisp and clear under high volume followed by the Scan D3004 silk’s and finally the Piccolo V2’s. As nice as the Piccolo V2’s sound, they are not a tweeter that likes to get loud and rowdy. If you want the ultimate experience listening to this song hear it through a set of Steven’s Audio HCLD CompNeo’s. They’ll blow you away.

Zero 7 “Futures” and “The Space Between” are two of the very few songs where I feel don’t sound as nice through a highly detailed / accurate tweeter. The TBXP’s did nothing wrong here. The song’s were replicated perfectly. However, I prefer the softer and more intimate playback I get with the Scan D3004 silk’s here. This is a subjective review and that’s only my opinion. The Scan’s offer the perfect blend of detail and smoothness in this instance. The Piccolo’s come in a strong second. And then the TBXP’s. Sometimes laser sharp precision is nice to have but not necessarily desirable.

Focal TBXP Beryllium dome tweeter rating

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 4 of 4
Spaciousness 3 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 3.5 of 4
Dynamics 3.5 of 4


I can tell you one thing. I am 90% confident this combo is going in my car this spring. I love other speakers I’ve tested just as much (Dyn E430 and Morel Piccolo v2). However, the smaller Focal drivers will be easier for me to package in my given space.


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## Clvol1255

I cannot wait to read TBM write up. Very nice and detailed write up and review


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## dgage

Great review. Thank you! You’ll have the Focal TBM next week to compare to its older stablemate. I can’t wait.


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## MythosDreamLab

Thanks Geo -probably the best thing I have ever read on this website!


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## Clvol1255

Good time- counting crows sounds so good with that combo too @Ge0


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## Ge0

MythosDreamLab said:


> Thanks Geo -probably the best thing I have ever read on this website!


This review is just one of many that are coming. I worked hard on this listening to music through top shelf speakers  I'm glad you appreciate the time I put into this.


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## Clvol1255

I won’t try and follow that write up... was that good uh ummmm you knit pickin mfer hahaha


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## bbfoto

Really, really good evaluation, G! Appreciate the exhaustive listening and write-up!

Seems like the Focal Be's have lower IMD and less "ringing", which is a known problem with traditional silk or I should say, "dome" tweeters. The ringing can do two things at once...provide a "smoother" impression (if the ringing is controlled...distributed evenly or "spread out") as well as smear the spatial details and imaging cues.

I experienced much the same when I heard the TBMs. 👍

Probably too late, but that "Opera" track by Emmanuel Santarromana in my D/L link really highlights those same 3D Spatial differences and dynamic transients, as well as the minimalist 2-microphone Mappleshade jazz recordings where the stereo phase coherency is maintained.

I'm glad that you applied that high shelf on the Focals as well. I'm sure that with just a little bit more judiciously applied EQ in a select few upper treble bands, it will smooth out their slight "fowardness" while still retaining the 3D spatial aspects.


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## Ge0

bbfoto said:


> Probably too late, but that "Opera" track by Emmanuel Santarromana in my D/L link really highlights those same 3D Spatial differences, as well as the minimalist 2-microphone Mappleshade jazz recordings where the stereo phase coherency is maintained.


It's never too late. I'll check it out.


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## Clvol1255

bbfoto said:


> Really, really good evaluation, G! Appreciate the exhaustive listening and write-up!
> 
> Seems like the Focal Be's have lower IMD and less "ringing", which is a known problem with traditional silk or I should say, "dome" tweeters. The ringing can do two things at once...provide a "smoother" impression (if the ringing is controlled...distributed evenly or "spread out") as well as smear the spatial details and imaging cues.
> 
> I experienced much the same when I heard the TBMs. 👍
> 
> Probably too late, but that "Opera" track by Emmanuel Santarromana in my D/L link really highlights those same 3D Spatial differences, as well as the minimalist 2-microphone Mappleshade jazz recordings where the stereo phase coherency is maintained.
> 
> I'm glad that you applied that high shelf on the Focals as well. I'm sure that with just a little bit more judiciously applied EQ in a select few upper treble bands, it will smooth out their slight "fowardness" while still retaining the 3D spatial aspects.


So you had TBMs and you’re running something else? What did you swap them out for? Or did you just demo them?


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## bbfoto

Ge0 said:


> It's never too late. I'll check it out.


Cool. Also the Stockfisch Records and Opus 3 Records tracks are great in the 3D soundstage regard....Oh, and the Tears For Fears "Woman In Chains" and Sara K "If I Could Sing Your Blues" track with the deep stage muted trumpet as well.

Happy Listening!


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## bbfoto

Clvol1255 said:


> So you had TBMs and you’re running something else? What did you swap them out for? Or did you just demo them?


Haha, no. I never owned them personally. I listened to a friend's system as well as the new Focal studio monitors that use them.

I would love to use them, but the particular install that I would want them in has very tight, limited locations (trying to keep it stealth/OEM), which is why I went with the TINY Gladen Aerospace 20 tweeters.

The A20's are absolutely fantastic for what they are, but the TBM's are definitely another step up.

Between their size, odd shape, and the fact that I didn't want Beryllium in the vehicle is why I don't use them.


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## Ge0

bbfoto said:


> Cool. Also the Stockfisch Records and Opus 3 Records tracks are great in the 3D soundstage regard.
> 
> Happy Listening!


Funny, I already grabbed all the Mapleshade recordings I didn't already have this morning. 

That Emmanuel Santarromana tune is quite different. An electronic Opera piece where snippets are randomly injected in to interfere with her vocals


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## Niebur3

Nice comparison Ge0, I really liked how in-depth it was. 

The way I read it and considering cost, I'm actually more impressed with the Scans. I mean, this is comparing on a board in a dead quiet room. Add a vehicle, all the plastic/glass AND road noise and I would say the Focal TBXP (at about $900 or so retail) edged out the Piccolo (at $949) and Scan D3004 at ($240), makes the Scan definitely the budget bargain.


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## Clvol1255

I honestly read it that the scans weren’t in the same league besides detail personally but I may have misinterpreted it. I will admit I usually never interpret things just right unless I read it a couple/3 times. My reading comprehension isn’t the greatest unless I can really focus and read. I get distracted too easily. Even if I didn’t misinterpret it though for the money and as a budget install the scans would probably do fine. There is definitely cost vs reward factor when you get to the higher end of things. Diminishing in returns as some like to call it


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## Niebur3

Considering Ge0 said the Scan actually did better on a couple of songs, not in the same league is a bit exaggerated. I think he said the detail was greater for the Focal and some songs that was welcome and in others, it wasn't.

Not here to argue or say the Scans were better, just that for $240, they did really well.


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## Clvol1255

Definitely not trying to argue. I may have misunderstood. I know I’m very impressed with the TBXPs in my experience. Never heard the scans. Just remember a few of his posts previously saying they were like angry Germans playing which is the reason I said not in same league.
I would double down on almost everything geo said in write up. I do believe the WM 3.5” help the TBXP shine quite a bit bc they’re so good


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## mark3004

Niebur3 said:


> Nice comparison Ge0, I really liked how in-depth it was.
> 
> The way I read it and considering cost, I'm actually more impressed with the Scans. I mean, this is comparing on a board in a dead quiet room. Add a vehicle, all the plastic/glass AND road noise and I would say the Focal TBXP (at about $900 or so retail) edged out the Piccolo (at $949) and Scan D3004 at ($240), makes the Scan definitely the budget bargain.


100% agree. On a daily driver car it make no sense $1000 tweeters. You have much more acoustics problems in the car than try to found the perfect speaker.


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## Clvol1255

mark3004 said:


> 100% agree. On a daily driver car it make no sense $1000 tweeters. You have much more acoustics problems in the car than try to found the perfect speaker.


I think these make it feel possible to get that perfect sound in daily driver. It makes sense to me to try and achieve the best you possibly can that fit your budget


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## preston

Clvol1255 said:


> Never heard the scans. Just remember a few of his posts previously saying they were like angry Germans playing which is the reason I said not in same league.


Geo was talking about the Berrylium version of that Scanspeak tweeter, not the silk dome in his review. 

Interesting as I was lusting after the Scan Be's for quite a while to drop in place of my silks. I ended up with the Bliesma's and am loving them.Dodged a bullet ? who knows.



mark3004 said:


> 100% agree. On a daily driver car it make no sense $1000 tweeters. You have much more acoustics problems in the car than try to found the perfect speaker.


I think I spend more time listening in my car parked then driving it. 
Its my only system (well, besides my truck) so I for one appreciate the nth degree as far as my ears hold out anyway.Not unherad of for me to get back from a somewhat long drive and actually sit in the car appreciating that now I can "actually listen to the music"


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## Niebur3

Clvol1255 said:


> Definitely not trying to argue. I may have misunderstood. I know I’m very impressed with the TBXPs in my experience. Never heard the scans. Just remember a few of his posts previously saying they were like angry Germans playing which is the reason I said not in same league.
> I would double down on almost everything geo said in write up. I do believe the WM 3.5” help the TBXP shine quite a bit bc they’re so good


The angry German comments are for the Be version of the Scans. Ge0 did the comparison with the silk dome.

(Preston beat me to it)


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## Clvol1255

I see! My bad then. Totally read it too quickly


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## Ge0

bbfoto said:


> Cool. Also the Stockfisch Records and Opus 3 Records tracks are great in the 3D soundstage regard....Oh, and the Tears For Fears "Woman In Chains" and Sara K "If I Could Sing Your Blues" track with the deep stage muted trumpet as well.
> 
> Happy Listening!


Which ones are Stockfish and Opus 3? 

BTW, that Sam McClain tune sounds awesome. Back to the Piccolo's and the 3.5wm's


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## mark3004

Clvol1255 said:


> I think these make it feel possible to get that perfect sound in daily driver. It makes sense to me to try and achieve the best you possibly can that fit your budget





preston said:


> .........
> I think I spend more time listening in my car parked then driving it.
> Its my only system (well, besides my truck) so I for one appreciate the nth degree as far as my ears hold out anyway.Not unherad of for me to get back from a somewhat long drive and actually sit in the car appreciating that now I can "actually listen to the music"


You guys are right. But before spend $1k just for a pair of tweeters, how many people do measurement of drivers, BEFORE install them? Simulations? Measure again and again in the vehicle before install them, trying to found the correct location/direction? Not mentioning a PERFECT tuning, and I'm not talking just about matching an house target. And even you do everything, probably still have lots of reflections and cancellations because of the vehicle, and you can't fix them!. What I mean, if you don't put the driver in the best condition ever, you're using not even the half potentiality of your speaker, the rest of it is just a waste of money! Just my opinion by the way.


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## Ge0

Niebur3 said:


> Nice comparison Ge0, I really liked how in-depth it was.
> 
> The way I read it and considering cost, I'm actually more impressed with the Scans. I mean, this is comparing on a board in a dead quiet room. Add a vehicle, all the plastic/glass AND road noise and I would say the Focal TBXP (at about $900 or so retail) edged out the Piccolo (at $949) and Scan D3004 at ($240), makes the Scan definitely the budget bargain.


Dead quite room? ROTFL! No. I have three extremely obnoxious kids in the house with me. I just need to play my music louder than their god [email protected] youtube phones or xbox video games. Yes, I'm a bit chapped about that 

I will agree that the Scans are a gem. I've been running them in my cars for over 10 years.


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## RyuTsuiSen

Ge0 said:


> Dead quite room? ROTFL! No. I have three extremely obnoxious kids in the house with me. I just need to play my music louder than their god [email protected] youtube phones or xbox video games. Yes, I'm a bit chapped about that
> 
> I will agree that the Scans are a gem. I've been running them in my cars for over 10 years.


I'd like to think you're just "culturing" them with healthy hobbies and good music 

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


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## Ge0




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## Ge0

Niebur3 said:


> The angry German comments are for the Be version of the Scans. Ge0 did the comparison with the silk dome.
> 
> (Preston beat me to it)


I'm hoping some of my BOSCH work colleagues see that comment. They'll get a kick out of it. Then they will release Funny Bot


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## Clvol1255

Ge0 said:


>


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## Ge0

Niebur3 said:


> Nice comparison Ge0, I really liked how in-depth it was.
> 
> The way I read it and considering cost, I'm actually more impressed with the Scans. I mean, this is comparing on a board in a dead quiet room. Add a vehicle, all the plastic/glass AND road noise and I would say the Focal TBXP (at about $900 or so retail) edged out the Piccolo (at $949) and Scan D3004 at ($240), makes the Scan definitely the budget bargain.


The real sh!ts of the matter is I can't chose one or the other tweeter. One is going in my car. The other on my desktop.


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## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> The real sh!ts of the matter is I can't chose one or the other tweeter. One is going in my car. The other on my desktop.


Do you think the TBM’s are going to be much better and do you find the Focals have a certain sonic signature which is on the brighter side vs others

I had the TBM’s and 3.5WMs what I did notice is that the TBMs hardly had to be EQd but I could not find a happy place with the 3.5WMs I sold them for the Brax speakers 

I wish I listened to the TBMs without the 3.5WMs to see how they sounded but with my midbass drivers being dedicated midbass drivers I could not try them out...

I did listen to a car the other day with the kit 7 mids and tweeters and I must say they did sound nice 

Very different to my Brax speakers which I wish had a little more edge on them sometimes 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DaveG

@Ge0 what’s the update on the Xcelsus XXM325?


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## Mullings

Why are you guy getting all touchy about the scan remarks? They’re just not that good, if you love music then you’ll find the best possible speaker to fit your budget and IMHO those scans wouldn’t fit in any of my budgets, the silk dome one sounds much better to me, in fact I would rather use some GB10’s before I use them, they’re the worst sounding beryllium tweeter I’ve ever heard. I’m just waiting on the xcellsus/TBM combo, I have full faith in that combo beating the full focal setup


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## bbfoto

Ge0 said:


> Which ones are Stockfish and Opus 3?
> 
> BTW, that Sam McClain tune sounds awesome. Back to the Piccolo's and the 3.5wm's.


Yeah, I love that Sam McClain track! His entire "Soul Survivor" album is excellent!

The file names should include "_Opus 3 Records Test CD 4_" or "_Opus 3 Records Showcase 2005_".

And I guess that I don't have as many of the Stockfisch Records tracks in the list as I thought. The file names should include, "_Stockfisch Records AYA_".



















The "_Percussion Ensemble_" (Tracks 04 & 11) are EXCELLENT for testing tweeters. The transients and individual separation and micro-detail in the Swirling Chimes will be a smeared mess if the tweeters are not up to the task and/or are not tuned appropriately. And the 3D Width and Depth of the other crotal bells, triangles,and seed pod/goat hoof shaker will not be distinct or have their revealing transients. The articulation and upper harmonic transients of the DEEP Bass Drum are also impressive. 

bbfoto DIYMA sample tracks - Stockfisch Records - Are You Authentic ''AYA'' Authentic Audio Check SACD - FLAC D/L


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## Kalmangar

Ge0 said:


> So it turns out the buzzing noise I was hearing may not have been coming from the Xcelsus midrange. I think something may have been loose on my mounting baffle. I also heard it a little with just the midbass playing. I snugged up all the bolts on my mounting baffle and haven't heard the buzzing noise again since. I've been evaluating the XXM325's all day without issue. We'll see in the days to come. I hope it is not the speaker and does not come back. At this point you are going to have to pry these things away from me. They are THAT good...
> 
> And now here is the beginning of what you all have been waiting for....


What have I told you body,
They change the game, they have midrinage from another dimension.

too much pages from me to read it all, just got inside the thread cuz you open it, but I’ve heard many good things before , sinfoni that know change to name as killin mids,
Hat has some of the best also?
But damm the Xcelsus, yea it’s made in China and not on the highest quality,
But the sound man the sound , out of the box pecfect, sealed small boxes big boxes, IB they still going play dam good.

didn’t heared the Dyns, But heaed a lot, almost every big brands mids that is out there, scan focal brax, golden , Audison, morel and more...

Wish you luck body


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## Ge0

Elektra said:


> Do you think the TBM’s are going to be much better and do you find the Focals have a certain sonic signature which is on the brighter side vs others
> 
> I had the TBM’s and 3.5WMs what I did notice is that the TBMs hardly had to be EQd but I could not find a happy place with the 3.5WMs I sold them for the Brax speakers
> 
> I wish I listened to the TBMs without the 3.5WMs to see how they sounded but with my midbass drivers being dedicated midbass drivers I could not try them out...
> 
> I did listen to a car the other day with the kit 7 mids and tweeters and I must say they did sound nice
> 
> Very different to my Brax speakers which I wish had a little more edge on them sometimes
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


At first I was concerned about taming the 3.5wm's. They could be harsh. But, take away any serious dips or peaks in their response and they are very well behaved. I'll let you know how they sound together once I get my TBM's


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## Niebur3

Mullings said:


> Why are you guy getting all touchy about the scan remarks? They’re just not that good, if you love music then you’ll find the best possible speaker to fit your budget and IMHO those scans wouldn’t fit in any of my budgets, the silk dome one sounds much better to me, in fact I would rather use some GB10’s before I use them, they’re the worst sounding beryllium tweeter I’ve ever heard. I’m just waiting on the xcellsus/TBM combo, I have full faith in that combo beating the full focal setup


Nobody getting touchy. People were getting the scan beryllium comments mixed up with the scan silk domes that were tested. Which is understandable considering the model number is ever so slightly different.


----------



## Ge0

DaveG said:


> @Ge0 what’s the update on the Xcelsus XXM325?


Next in line once I finish the Piccolo writeup. I already have a lot of notes and random thoughts on them. Same with pretty much all the stuff I've tested. Just need time to consolidate and make sense of it.

I was going to hold off on using my new set of XXm325's to see if Erin wanted to measure them first (he prefers virgins). Uhhh, virgin drivers that is. But, I haven't heard from him and I'm growing anxious to try them.


----------



## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> At first I was concerned about taming the 3.5wm's. They could be harsh. But, take away any serious dips or peaks in their response and they are very well behaved. I'll let you know how they sound together once I get my TBM's


I think a detailed tweeter with Xcelsus mids might be a better combo than the Brax tweeter and Xcelsus mid as the mid seems to be more detailed than the tweeter so it seems to be a little harder to blend nicely 

Maybe not - let’s see how you find that pairing 

I have built a test cabinet whereby I can test multiple drivers at the same time so my cabinet is housing the Brax Graphic Pro midbass drivers and ML1 and ML3 and 2.1 dome mid with the Xcelsus mid and competition tweeter - I am using the Brax 3 way passive so the idea is to just swap the cables at the back to play whatever combo I wanna test - should take a minute or 2 between swaps 

It’s too difficult to try this in a car due car restraints etc also there is EQ at play which in a home test that’s nullified 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

Elektra said:


> I think a detailed tweeter with Xcelsus mids might be a better combo than the Brax tweeter and Xcelsus mid as the mid seems to be more detailed than the tweeter so it seems to be a little harder to blend nicely
> 
> Maybe not - let’s see how you find that pairing
> 
> I have built a test cabinet whereby I can test multiple drivers at the same time so my cabinet is housing the Brax Graphic Pro midbass drivers and ML1 and ML3 and 2.1 dome mid with the Xcelsus mid and competition tweeter - I am using the Brax 3 way passive so the idea is to just swap the cables at the back to play whatever combo I wanna test - should take a minute or 2 between swaps
> 
> It’s too difficult to try this in a car due car restraints etc also there is EQ at play which in a home test that’s nullified
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You still need to adjust levels between drivers an apply a modest amount of EQ in a home setup due to potential room effects. Level matching being the most important in my experience...

I'm using a DSP amplifier to drive my home evaluation setup. It makes it easy to compare A vs. B by selecting presets once you have everything set flat with the DSP.


----------



## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> You still need to adjust levels between drivers an apply a modest amount of EQ in a home setup due to potential room effects. Level matching being the most important in my experience...
> 
> I'm using a DSP amplifier to drive my home evaluation setup. It makes it easy to compare A vs. B by selecting presets once you have everything set flat with the DSP.


Yeah I know the passive can attenuate to a reasonable level between drivers - unfortunately I don’t have a 6 channel amp with a DSP to do things perfectly - but this way should be good enough to get an impression on how things are

The Xcelsus mid is def a more detailed mid vs the Brax - but I find the blend between the mids and tweeters a little off so I am finding the blend a little off

The Brax 2.1 dome is a much more brighter sounding mid to the ML3’s just that it doesn’t go low enough... 

So there is a lot to test - ultimately I want a decent setup in my other car which will be a much more simpler setup...

Maybe a 5 channel with a Clarion HX-D2 and Brax 3 way and a sub

The one thing I can say is that Brax make phenomenal bass drivers the ML10 and 6.1 really impress me... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bbfoto

Ge0, I don't know why I didn't think to send you a pair of my *Hiquphon OW1* 20mm dome tweeters for this test when I shipped you the 3.5WM. :-/

These have long been one of my favorite tweeters, and are relatively reasonable in cost, though they are quite large to be easily used in most vehicles. But they are still available in pairs or single units. The price has gone up just a bit...they used to be $220/pair.

I have also successfully "truncated" the mounting flange to fit them into a past install with excellent results. This makes them more similar in shape to the Focal Be tweeters, though still quite a bit deeper.

IMO, they are still a option that should be considered if they will fit. When compared to the Scan silk domes, IME they have a bit more detail, and a bit more of that 3D imaging mojo. Perhaps somewhere between the Scans and the TBM.









Hiquphon, OW1 (Pair) | Meniscus Audio


One Pair Tweeters




meniscusaudio.com





Hiquphon OW1 20mm Tweeter Data Sheet PDF


----------



## Mullings

Elektra said:


> I think a detailed tweeter with Xcelsus mids might be a better combo than the Brax tweeter and Xcelsus mid as the mid seems to be more detailed than the tweeter so it seems to be a little harder to blend nicely
> 
> Maybe not - let’s see how you find that pairing
> 
> I have built a test cabinet whereby I can test multiple drivers at the same time so my cabinet is housing the Brax Graphic Pro midbass drivers and ML1 and ML3 and 2.1 dome mid with the Xcelsus mid and competition tweeter - I am using the Brax 3 way passive so the idea is to just swap the cables at the back to play whatever combo I wanna test - should take a minute or 2 between swaps
> 
> It’s too difficult to try this in a car due car restraints etc also there is EQ at play which in a home test that’s nullified
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You need to get rid of the passive crossover then you’ll see how good the xcellsus’s are, paired with the TBM’s they’re hard to beat, the tonal balance hat I’m looking for is 12mu/focal audiom TLR tweeter combo, I heard them in a land cruiser in Jamaica and came back and bought the same setup, down to the Macintosh amp that is used then I heard the xcellsus’s with that open no artifact added sound and fell in love. I’ll do my own testing in car with them along with about 5 different scanspeak model tweeters.


----------



## Clvol1255

How is the build quality of the xxcelsius mid compared to the Brax morel and Focals?


----------



## Ge0

Clvol1255 said:


> How is the build quality of the xxcelsius mid compared to the Brax morel and Focals?


They don't look as pretty but there is nothing wrong with their build quality. Remember though. You're talking about speakers that are 3x less the cost of the Focal or Brax. So, they are not going to be dolled up in lip stick and a nice dress.








































































To put things in perspective they are just as small as the Utopia 3.5wm's


----------



## seafish

^^^ gotta a mounting depth and diameter cut out ??


----------



## Clvol1255

Don’t care how they look really just wanna know if they’re built to last like the Morel Focal and Brax. Maybe I’m judging the book by it’s cover but the quality in pics just doesn’t seem as good imo and yes I get the price difference in they have to cut corners somewhere. Maybe if I owned or had a set in my hands that opinion would change


----------



## Elektra

Clvol1255 said:


> How is the build quality of the xxcelsius mid compared to the Brax morel and Focals?


Having owned all 3 and have all 3 they don’t look worse than the others - the Brax comes in a classy wooden box , the Focals in a nice box as well the Xcelsus looks like they ran out of money on the packaging...

What’s nice about the Xcelsus is the grill that comes with the mid - the others you have to buy individually - and they not cheap - especially the MR3’s from the Brax - just stupid money in the grill itself...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

seafish said:


> ^^^ gotta a mounting depth and diameter cut out ??


It’s a 76mm cut out same for the Brax and Focal


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

seafish said:


> ^^^ gotta a mounting depth and diameter cut out ??


bbphoto posted that earlier in this thread. It's back a page or two.


----------



## mark3004

Always remember to evaluate something according to his price range.
I handled them, and for what they cost the build quality is pretty good. I like the fact they comes with wires attached already. Unfortunately had no chance to test them.


----------



## Elektra

Mullings said:


> You need to get rid of the passive crossover then you’ll see how good the xcellsus’s are, paired with the TBM’s they’re hard to beat, the tonal balance hat I’m looking for is 12mu/focal audiom TLR tweeter combo, I heard them in a land cruiser in Jamaica and came back and bought the same setup, down to the Macintosh amp that is used then I heard the xcellsus’s with that open no artifact added sound and fell in love. I’ll do my own testing in car with them along with about 5 different scanspeak model tweeters.


Well I am getting a set of the TBM’s and 3.5WM - it’s a package deal so I have to take the mids even if I won’t use it - for now. 

The test is just to ascertain tonality between all of them to understand what combo works best...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

Elektra said:


> Having owned all 3 and have all 3 they don’t look worse than the others - the Brax comes in a classy wooden box , the Focals in a nice box as well the Xcelsus looks like they ran out of money on the packaging...
> 
> What’s nice about the Xcelsus is the grill that comes with the mid - the others you have to buy individually - and they not cheap - especially the MR3’s from the Brax - just stupid money in the grill itself...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'd rather spend $600 less on a pair of speakers and get a plain old cardboard box. Just my opinion. But, it still protects the speakers fine.

I heard that the grill on the Xcelsus drivers can be removed. But, I haven't tried it myself.


----------



## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> I'd rather spend $600 less on a pair of speakers and get a plain old cardboard box. Just my opinion. But, it still protects the speakers fine.
> 
> I heard that the grill on the Xcelsus drivers can be removed. But, I haven't tried it myself.


I kinda like the grill TBH... every mid I bought I ordered with the grill...

The Focal grill is just plain ugly - the ML3 grill is nice but yikes I paid more for the grills than what I paid for the Xcelsus mids...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Clvol1255

What’s the warranty like on the xcelsius? I can’t find any info about them online


----------



## Mullings

Elektra said:


> Well I am getting a set of the TBM’s and 3.5WM - it’s a package deal so I have to take the mids even if I won’t use it - for now.
> 
> The test is just to ascertain tonality between all of them to understand what combo works best...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You still need to go active with them though or your really not gonna like them especially the tweeters always need cutting at 20k, I had to put a shelf filter and cut them 8db to match the target curve, you can’t do that with passives


----------



## preston

So I'd never heard of Xcelsus until this thread, and now out of the blue this cheap speaker (~$200/pair) is being compared with Focal 3.5WM and Brax ? And by relativity therefore Scan12m or Dynaudio 430 ? 

Do I have that right ? 
How and where did you guys even come across these things ? Its not like I"m on the cutting edge of products but just seems strange for the sudden forum boner to be engorging so quickly.

I'll be interested to see what Geo has to say about all of these speakers.


----------



## Clvol1255

They’ve definitely become the forum boner over the last couple of months


----------



## DaveG

Clvol1255 said:


> They’ve definitely become the forum boner over the last couple of months


@Ge0 dying to hear your thoughts.


----------



## Ge0

preston said:


> So I'd never heard of Xcelsus until this thread, and now out of the blue this cheap speaker (~$200/pair) is being compared with Focal 3.5WM and Brax ? And by relativity therefore Scan12m or Dynaudio 430 ?
> 
> Do I have that right ?
> How and where did you guys even come across these things ? Its not like I"m on the cutting edge of products but just seems strange for the sudden forum boner to be engorging so quickly.
> 
> I'll be interested to see what Geo has to say about all of these speakers.


To start off, the XXm325's are not a $200 set of midranges. They are just over $300 after shipping if bought locally and under $300 if imported from Europe .

I have about 4 pages of raw notes on these and I was just getting started. Simply put they are amazing for the price. I would definitely chose them over the Scan 12m's. They went head to head with the Utopia 3.5wm and Dyn E430. The XXm325's don't have them beat. But, they come [email protected] near close enough.

The downside is they get a little pissy at high volumes. So, it you're one of those guys who does not listen to music at 110dB you should be fine.


----------



## Ge0

If you wanted a killer combo that could give you 85% of the performance of the Utopia M equivalent midrange and tweeter look into pairing a set of Xcelsus XXM325's with a set of ScanSpeak D3004 or D2004 silk dome tweeters. Absolutely awesome combo on the cheap. H3ll, you can get all 4 drivers for less than the cost of one Utopia M driver.


----------



## seafish

preston said:


> So I'd never heard of Xcelsus until this thread... Its not like I"m on the cutting edge of products but just seems strange for the sudden forum boner to be engorging so quickly.


LOL...but thats EXACTLY the way forum boners work.

That said, this does not mean that there is not valid opinion and good value giving the the boner a helping hand...or underlying support...or however you want to phrase it !!! LOL


----------



## Ge0

seafish said:


> LOL...but thats EXACTLY the way forum boners work.
> 
> That said, this does not mean that there is not valid opinion and good value giving the the boner a helping hand...or underlying support...or however you want to phrase it !!! LOL


I certainly hope this boner stays erect and does not go flaccid in a month. I really like these little speakers. I hope they stay around for a while. Who knows, maybe someday there will be a V2 that is even better.


----------



## DaveG

seafish said:


> LOL...but thats EXACTLY the way forum boners work.
> 
> That said, this does not mean that there is not valid opinion and good value giving the the boner a helping hand...or underlying support...or however you want to phrase it !!! LOL


That would be called a “reacharound”!!! Lol


----------



## Catalyx

Some mids and tweets joining the fun soon:










Audio Development MM1
Audio Development MM4
Audio Development M35
Brax ML3
Dynaudio VW OEM 3C0035411E
ESB DT-6.25
Flux M-80R
Illusion Audio TL 25 BN
Oz Audio OZ-25
Stereo Integrity M25


----------



## MythosDreamLab

Ge0 said:


> Who knows, maybe someday there will be a *V*2 that is even better.


"V" for Viagra?


----------



## Niebur3

Just received these today for my much smaller test.....

















And these.....


----------



## Mullings

Niebur3 said:


> Just received these today for my much smaller test.....
> 
> View attachment 294286
> 
> View attachment 294287
> 
> And these.....
> 
> View attachment 294288
> 
> View attachment 294289


I got those scans too but can’t find the time to test anything


----------



## Ge0

*REVIEW: Stevens Audio CompNeo HLCD compression horns paired with Focal 3.5wm*

































































Initial setup is a horizontal mount on top of my speaker cabinets. Don’t mind the towel they are sitting on. This was Eric Stevens' idea. That and duct tape. But I didn’t go there . The horn bodies are made out of an HDPE plastic material and are very slippery. You gotta hold them tight. 

During setup I ran them with no crossover at 99dB. Yep, that’s right . At the high end they ran out to 15KHz before a sharp and controlled roll-off. On the low end they were pretty flat until about 1.2KHz where there was a sudden -5dB drop. The response oscillated 1KHz down to 500Hz. They dropped off rapidly at 500Hz.

Eric told me to high pass them at 800Hz with 24dB/octave. However, I decided not to fight the -5dB drop at 1.2KHz in my setup and crossed them over at 1KHz. At this frequency I got them to blend perfectly with the Focal 3.5WM midrange. Speaking of which. Can you imagine using a 3.5WM and only running it 400Hz to 1KHz .

I am going to evaluate horizontal toed in, horizontal and facing forward, and finally vertical mount...

My first thoughts after initial setup. Wow do these things have a smooth frequency response clear out to 15KHz where they start to drop off. And MAN do they throw a well focused image right at the height of the driver. The stage easily extends beyond the drivers as well. 

Funny thing about the setup. I had to cut these -18dB below the Focal 3.5WM to balance mids and highs. I usually need to cut response just a few decibels to blend this midrange with a tweeter.

Day1 

The horns lack a little fine detail of the Focal midrange and ScanSpeak D3004 tweeter playing up higher. But the horns present a stage so awesome it's a fair trade off. The glass drop at the end of Patty Barber’s “Just Like JT” makes you jump. Not due to the ultimate lifelike detail, but in the dynamics these speakers can provide.

This is a different type of listening. These things are dynamic as hell. When an artist whacks on a drum these speakers give you ALL of that attack. Being dynamic is an additional facet of reproducing sound lifelike that I didn’t really hear until now. 

Patty Barber’s “Use Me”. The treble seems a little dull (lacks fine detail) compared to other speakers but the dynamic impact and wide stage make up for this when it comes to enjoyment of the song and overall satisfaction. 

Did I mention you can turn the song up as loud as you can and these suckers will not stress at all. Your sub will catch fire before you stress these enough 

Calexico’s song “Crumble”. So loud and dynamic you think you’re in the club listening to this tune live. Again, not super resolvent like other drivers but very engaging. Especially for band jam sessions. The same goes for “Dub Latina” and “El Picador”.

The only song I did not care for out of my Calexico set was “Black Light”. This is supposed to be a surreal song with syncopating dynamic impact. The CompNeo horns got the dynamic impact right. But the surreal portions had no soft spot. They weren’t soft and laid back. They were almost in your face. I also feel like the lower midrange was lacking. This is weird since this is the range the Focal 3.5WM play and this is not usually the case for them. Maybe this is because the highs are emphasized so much?

I burned up one of my midbasses trying to keep up with these horns while testing high volume limits while listening to Gojira “Love”. The horns produced loud and crystal clear midrange and treble. But, my cheap little boston acoustic midbass farted and couldn’t keep up. Oh well, I was looking for an excuse to use my Dynaudio Esotec midbasses anyway 

Day2
ANYTHING I SAID ABOUT THESE SPEAKERS SOUNDING DULL LAST NIGHT WAS ALL WRONG. All I can think of is….


 The compression drivers needed a few hours to “break in”
 I was fatigued from tuning them. Maybe my ears weren’t so sharp.
 I had them toe’d in last night at 30 degree angles. The throats were pointing right at me. I think the dispersion pattern was off when doing this. Today I pointed them on a horizontal plane in front of me like they would be mounted in a car. This way the sound energy rolls off the long tip of the horns right in front of me vs. getting pointed inwards. 

Whatever it was, it made a pretty big difference in detail. These things sound sweet!!!

You do need to give them some volume to make them come alive. When you do watch out!!!

Perhaps the best playback of Chris Cornell’s “Call Me a Dog” to date. These horns made his performance sound natural in tonality and spatial. Nothing was over emphasized. His voice had a lot of energy and depth behind it. His guitar had a great tone. You don’t hear a lot of the fine nuances. But a nice rich and pleasing sound. Again great staging by the horns.

Absolutely nailed Chris Cornell’s “Seasons”. Almost all other speakers I have tried are a bit hot sounding on this song. There is a lot of treble content / energy. Chris’s voice sounds a bit shrill. Not on Steven’s horns. His voice sounded rich and powerful. Towards the end of the song some background singers come in. Their voices sound a bit spitty and sibilant. Even on the horns. I think that is more a function of a fault in the recording. Every speaker I’ve tried gets spitty there. The only fault I could find is that Chris’s voice got a little drowned out by the guitars in left and right channel. I’ll need to go back and evaluate on another pair of my favorite drivers. Once again, I think this is a fault of the recording and not the Horns.

They absolutely nailed the entire Patricia Barber “Cafe Blue” album. Of all the speakers I have tried so far these may be my favorite playing this album. Awesome big wide stage with 3D depth.. Dynamic, the lady who shattered the glass for Memorex cassette tapes must have been played back through these horns .. Accurate, just the right amount of detail.

Have you ever listened to a Jazz album at 106dB and have it sound flawless??? My midbasses strain to keep up.

Also, I hear hissing during a lot of tracks that I didn’t notice with other midranges and tweeters. A side effect of being so [email protected] sensitive?

If you like your music loud as dynamic as h3ll you need to check these drivers out. IMHO they really don’t get their groove on until you turn it up some

Detail level 3 out of 4. Listening to Alice in Chains “Rooster” I noticed I could hardly hear the bouncing guitar string on the left side. After close listening it was there, just at lower volume and not as well defined. The bouncing guitar string on the right side was audible but again, lacked a little detail that the Scan D3004 silk’s offer up. However, the enjoyment factor while listening to this song was high 3.5 out of 4 due to the Horns ability to cast an awesome soundstage. Dynamics of course are 4 out of 4. There just is no comparison.
Dave Brubeck's “Take Five”. Great wide soundstage. Every instrument placed where it should be. Tonality is perfect. Staging is maybe a little TOO wide? Detail in the percussion is 3 out of 4 during the drum solo and cymbal rides. Dynamics and impact 4 out of 4. Paul Desomonds sax sounds like it is right in front of you. Great tonality as already mentioned. But not quite lifelike. I think the horns would need to score a 4 out of 4 in detail to achieve that. Still, a very engaging listening session. Among my favorites so far.

I watched several movies with the horns hooked up. Watching movies using the horns is quite engaging. Vocals are clear with no bite. Staging is excellent. Of course dynamic impact is there. I was thrilled by the soundtracks. At no point could I claim any over extension of speakers. Exactly what I would want in this scenario. So, what could be wrong?

Days of the New “Days of the Earth” and “Now”: both songs sounded great on Steve’s horns. However, I did notice they could not play back all the subtleties of the guitar string plucks. Some texture / detail was missing. Also, Travis’s voice sounded a little harsh at times(like when Travis Yells FACE OF THE EARTH). Travis’s voice was even more harsh in the song “Now”. This is part of the recording though. Some speakers handle it better than others. Also, the cymbal crashes just sounded like hash/noise and not like a cymbal strike. The Horn’s did have excellent tonality and dynamic impact of course. But after hearing these songs on something like the Piccolo tweeter you know they don’t play back all of the detail that is there in the recording. Albeit, the Piccolo is my new reference standard for now and is very difficult to beat. Overall a great musical experience that is only lacking a little detail and polish.

The Horns played back Miles Davis “So What” and “All Blues” perfectly. The level of detail they can produce matches the level of detail available in the best mastering I have heard of that recording.

The only thing holding these drivers back is their sheer size and difficulty to hold still and mount. HDPE is like trying to grab a wet bar of soap. They slip and slide all over the place. You’ll need to drill into them to get a firm bite.

So. where does that leave us? I would seriously consider using a set of these horns if I could package them in my vehicle without too much effort. However, that’s a problem for me. I just don’t have anywhere to put them unless I seriously modify my vehicle.

Day 5

I set the horns up vertical because Eric told me I should try it. I was reluctant at first but decided to give it a shot. What I noticed immediately is that the wide and expansive soundstage collapsed. There was still a soundstage of course. But, it was bound between the speakers and no longer extended beyond them. The center image was still well focused and defined. Nothing changed tonally or dynamically. But, I really missed that expansive soundstage of these suckers mounted horizontally.

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 3 of 4
Spaciousness 4 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 3 of 4
Dynamics 11 of 4

Who should consider these?

Anyone who wants to create a rock solid and ultra wide soundstage and is willing to mod their vehicles dash to fit them.
Anyone who likes to listen to their music loud as h3ll and undistorted. These suckers can throw up a wall of chaos, hate, and fury like no other. The Ministries song “A$$ Clown” and Gojira’s song “Love” were absolutely blistering played back through these speakers. They will play much louder than you can tolerate guaranteed. I backed off at 113dB (measured at the mouth of the horn) in a near field monitor setup..
Anyone who holds dynamic impact higher in priority than super intricate detail. Great if you listen to a lot of live recordings vs. studio recordings. I have a live recording of Courtney Loves “Doll Parts” that sounded fabulous played over these speakers. Also, I already made mention of Chris Cornell’s “Call Me a Dog” in my review. Also, a lot of my live Jazz recordings were best using these speakers. Wow. 
Anyone who wants to throw a EDM dance party out of their car. The dispersion pattern and sound field energy on these suckers is awesome. The Revolting Cocks “**** Song” absolutely pulsated through these suckers like no other. Like that? Try some Griztronics or Deadmau5.
I would definitely use these for home theater. The dynamic impact can’t be beat when bullets are flying and explosions are all around you. An absolutely thrilling experience.


----------



## Ge0

Niebur3 said:


> Just received these today for my much smaller test.....
> 
> View attachment 294286
> 
> View attachment 294287
> 
> And these.....
> 
> View attachment 294288
> 
> View attachment 294289


That's a freaky looking Scan driver. Mount it at a 90 degrees angle. It looks like an eye. Am I the only one who see's this? Look close


----------



## Ge0

Niebur3 said:


> Just received these today for my much smaller test.....
> 
> View attachment 294286
> 
> View attachment 294287


Send those Xcelsus tweets my way once you are done. I'd love to try them but don't want to spend another $250 on them.


----------



## preston

Great review on the horns. If you go back and read what I wrote I think we agree on most of it, and my preferences matched (or more precisely didn't match ) exactly what you wrote and explain why I didn't stick with them. Btu mostly I wanted to post some gratuitous pictures of horns !


----------



## dgage

Great review.

For my home speakers, I have JTR 212 HTRs, which have a pro audio pedigree but are made for home audio/theater. They have a 101 dB efficient horn-loaded compression driver and a pair of 12” midranges (not midbasses) to try to keep up with the horn. They are very detailed and super dynamic. I love how effortlessly they play. I tell people with most speakers when you turn them up the speakers are unhappy. With mine, you’ll be unhappy long before they will. I’ve heard quite a few horn-loaded speakers including the JBL M2 reference monitors and I don’t see myself going back to regular (non horn-loaded) main speakers ever.


----------



## bbfoto

Ge0 said:


> *REVIEW: Stevens Audio CompNeo HLCD compression horns paired with Focal 3.5wm...*
> 
> Tonality 4 of 4
> Detail 3 of 4
> Spaciousness 4 of 4
> Harshness (lack of) 3 of 4
> Dynamics 11 of 4


Glad that you were able to have these in your listening test just to have that experience and comparison to traditional drivers (and share your experience as well). 

This is one reason I like the BMS 5CN162HE concentric drivers like those that Erin used in his old Civic for a while (non-HE version). 

You get the dynamics and SPL capability of a compression driver for the High Frequency, but you also get the detail, focus, and the expansive soundstage due to the "point source" aspect... All in a much more compact package compared to the traditional thin, horizontal car audio HLCD's. 

Considering it's just a 5" driver, the basket and motor are kind of huge, but if you can work around that, well, yeah...Good Chit, Maynard! 

The HF especially needs quite a bit of EQ to get them smoothed and "balanced", but they take to EQ with no issues.

...pics from DIYMA member "*whoever"* & The loudspeakerdatabase.com



















BMS 5CN162 Concentric HF Compression Driver - The LoudspeakerDatabaseCom


----------



## daloudin

Catalyx said:


> Some mids and tweets joining the fun soon:
> 
> View attachment 294261
> 
> 
> Audio Development MM1
> Audio Development MM4
> Audio Development M35
> Brax ML3
> Dynaudio VW OEM 3C0035411E
> ESB DT-6.25-2
> Flux M 80 R
> Illusion Audio TL 25 BN
> Oz Audio OZ-25
> Stereo Integrity M25


Where do you get the Oz Audio OZ-25? I don't see any mention of it in their website. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> They don't look as pretty but there is nothing wrong with their build quality. Remember though. You're talking about speakers that are 3x less the cost of the Focal or Brax. So, they are not going to be dolled up in lip stick and a nice dress.
> View attachment 294220
> 
> 
> View attachment 294221
> 
> 
> View attachment 294222
> 
> 
> View attachment 294223
> 
> 
> View attachment 294224
> 
> 
> View attachment 294225
> 
> 
> View attachment 294226
> 
> 
> View attachment 294227
> 
> 
> To put things in perspective they are just as small as the Utopia 3.5wm's


What volume are you using for the Focal? I see your test rig is quite big...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

Elektra said:


> What volume are you using for the Focal? I see your test rig is quite big...
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm essentially using the midranges in this evaluation infinite baffle. The enclosure they are in is approximately 5 liters. I'm high passing the midranges at 300Hz minimum, typically 400hz. The enclosure has no affect beyond containing the back wave.


----------



## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> I'm essentially using the midranges in this evaluation infinite baffle. The enclosure they are in is approximately 5 liters. I'm high passing the midranges at 300Hz minimum, typically 400hz. The enclosure has no affect beyond containing the back wave.


Oh ok I was wondering - I see you using the Focal mids on all your tweeter evaluations 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Clvol1255

I can tell you that since I’ve stuffed my dash corners below the WM mid range with black hole stuffing jute looking deadener it has really brought out more punch from the mids and even more detail. I stuffed it in between ac duct and the rest of the dash bracket down there. Worked out very well imo and I would say they’re in about the equivalent 5x5x5” enclosure since doing this


----------



## Ge0

Elektra said:


> Oh ok I was wondering - I see you using the Focal mids on all your tweeter evaluations
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Only the two I posted so far. I also have reviews using other midrange drivers I haven't posted yet.


----------



## Ge0

Clvol1255 said:


> I can tell you that since I’ve stuffed my dash corners below the WM mid range with black hole stuffing jute looking deadener it has really brought out more punch from the mids and even more detail. I stuffed it in between ac duct and the rest of the dash bracket down there. Worked out very well imo and I would say they’re in about the equivalent 5x5x7” enclosure since doing this


What are your midrange crossover points?


----------



## Clvol1255

450-4000


----------



## Ge0

Clvol1255 said:


> 450-4000


Good boy 

Your estimated volume behind the driver is about 2.9L. That size enclosure only causes response interaction with the driver 300hz and lower (F3 = 90Hz with Qtc = 1.1). Since you are high-passing your midranges at 450Hz the box volume has no affect on the speakers response. I think the difference you are hearing is similar to what I am doing. Containing the back wave so no cancellations occur.


----------



## Clvol1255

Yeah it’s something. Wasn’t sure exactly what but thanks for the knowledge. What’s the formula you use to get those? In theory would it do anything good if i stuffed even more shrinking the enclosed area? 

lol 450-4000 bc I like to let the other drivers work a little bc they sound great too. That said I believe I’m about to make their workload even smaller on the high side next tuning chance I get. 3200 low pass bc now the boss is here to play


----------



## Ge0

Clvol1255 said:


> Yeah it’s something. Wasn’t sure exactly what but thanks for the knowledge. What’s the formula you use to get those? In theory would it do anything good if i stuffed even more shrinking the enclosed area?
> 
> lol 450-4000 bc I like to let the other drivers work a little bc they sound great too. That said I believe I’m about to make their workload even smaller on the high side next tuning chance I get. 3200 low pass bc now the boss is here to play


I like this website a lot:

SpeakerBoxLite. Subwoofer box calculator, Sub box calculator


----------



## Catalyx

daloudin said:


> Where do you get the Oz Audio OZ-25? I don't see any mention of it in their website.


They're part of the original "superman" product line from the 90s that earned them a lot of fans. Later they came out with the Matrix models and I believe the company was then sold to whoever is running it now. Here are a couple useful threads:









OZ Audio history?


Does anyone know the history of or story behind OZ Audio? Their "Superman" subs are still my favorite subs of all time. I owned a pair of the 10" sealed versions. They were amazing with jazz and classical music. Just wondering who designed them and if they were built in one of the American...




www.diymobileaudio.com













OZ Superman Fan Hangout


So are there any OZ speaker fans out there? I have been a huge fan since the first time I heard them!!! When they first came out. They hit a home run straight out of the gate. I caught alot of crap around the shop because I rebuilt my system and competed with a brand we didn't carry. I drove...




www.diymobileaudio.com


----------



## daloudin

Catalyx said:


> They're part of the original "superman" product line from the 90s that earned them a lot of fans. Later they came out with the Matrix models and I believe the company was then sold to whoever is running it now. Here are a couple useful threads:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OZ Audio history?
> 
> 
> Does anyone know the history of or story behind OZ Audio? Their "Superman" subs are still my favorite subs of all time. I owned a pair of the 10" sealed versions. They were amazing with jazz and classical music. Just wondering who designed them and if they were built in one of the American...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.diymobileaudio.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OZ Superman Fan Hangout
> 
> 
> So are there any OZ speaker fans out there? I have been a huge fan since the first time I heard them!!! When they first came out. They hit a home run straight out of the gate. I caught alot of crap around the shop because I rebuilt my system and competed with a brand we didn't carry. I drove...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.diymobileaudio.com


Nurtz - wish they still made a mid like the one you have. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## bbfoto

preston said:


> So I'd never heard of Xcelsus until this thread, and now out of the blue this cheap speaker (~$200/pair) is being compared with Focal 3.5WM and Brax ? And by relativity therefore Scan12m or Dynaudio 430 ?
> 
> Do I have that right ?
> How and where did you guys even come across these things ? Its not like I"m on the cutting edge of products but just seems strange for the sudden forum boner to be engorging so quickly.
> 
> I'll be interested to see what Geo has to say about all of these speakers.


One of the owners/designers of Xcelsus comes from the Swedish DLS company.

I first heard of the Xcelsus drivers via Steven Head/Audionutz, who if you don't know is a long-time and very respected IASCA competitor with multiple championship-level vehicles.

He wrote a Facebook post on the Xcelsus Sweden FB page praising the XXM325 as his new favorite midrange driver over his beloved Scan 12m's.

I believe he is running the full 3-way Xcelsus competition set in his Dodge RAM 3500 and won a regional MECA competition in Florida with this setup several months ago.

Lots of people know and respect Steven's opinion and ear for SQ, so his endorsement of these drivers raised many eyebrows and much interest. Read his comments at the following link...


https://www.facebook.com/xcelsus.se/



One thing to understand is that not all drivers are "perfect" out of the box. The implementation and install of the adjacent/related drivers, and especially the Tuning Of The System, is what reveals their true maximum potential.

Steven has the skills to both install and tune a system to the Nth degree, and therefor is able to eek the full performance and potential out of any driver, or combination of drivers. So when he commented on the superiority of the XXM325 over the Scan 12m, it was a bold statement.

Having said that, he may have a vested interest in the company, I don't know. But his good friend is the U.S. importer/distributor for the brand, Eddie De Jesus.

I hope that helps to partly explain their "sudden rise to forum boner status", LOL.


----------



## seafish

bbfoto said:


> One of the owners/designers of Xcelsus comes from the Swedish DLS company...
> 
> I first heard of the Xcelsus drivers via Steven Head/Audionutz...
> 
> I hope that helps to explain their "sudden rise to forum boner status", LOL.


Thanks for the deeper explain ... I luv me some audio nutz and its been a long time since we've have had any of him around here ....LOL!!!


----------



## Ge0

bbfoto said:


> Having said that, he may have a vested interest in the company, I don't know. But his good friend is the U.S. importer/distributor for the brand, Eddie De Jesus.
> 
> I hope that helps to explain their "sudden rise to forum boner status", LOL.


For sure Steve has something to gain out of promoting these drivers. However setting that aside, they are fabulous little drivers. I have no idea if their tweets or midbasses are worth a dam but their spider-less midrange design appears to be something special.


----------



## Ge0

*REVIEW: Morel Supremo Piccolo tweeter paired with Focal Utopia 3.5wm midrange*














































Before listening to the Piccolo’s I reviewed the Scan D3004 Be tweeters. The Piccolo’s are as accurate as the Scan Be but much more musical. They do not bring out every detail all at once (like the Scan Be) but rather only what needs to be. As a result, the Piccolo’s sound is more natural. I also switched from both the Dyn MD102’s and the Scan D3004 silks to listen to the Piccolo’s. Holy [email protected] what a difference! The Piccolo’s sound much more lifelike.

I just reviewed the Focal TBXP tweeter as well. I compared it to a lot of my notes based on my early findings with the Piccolo V2. So, in certain instances I am going to switch back and forth between the tweeters to make further comparisons. You can refer back to my TBXP review to see how the Piccolo V2’s compared to the TBXP’s. Although, I didn’t do A/B comparisons while conducting that review.

I started with evaluating a set of Piccolo V2’s on loan. I liked them so much I sought out to buy a set for myself. I now own a set of 1st (V1) and 2nd (V2) generation drivers.

My initial test on the Piccolo V2’s and Scan D3004 Be was paired with the Dynaudio Esotar2 E430 midange. This is a killer combo that I will go in further when I publish my review of the E430. I later switched back to the Focal Utopia 3.5wm’s. And that’s what I am basing the rest of this review on.


Here is my take on the 1st generation Piccolo drivers:

The Dave Brubeck song “Three to Get Ready” starts with light cymbal taps. These simple taps sound amazing on the Piccolo’s. To give you an idea each tap rings for around 4 seconds on the Piccolo’s. They just gently taper off. In retrospect they last about 3 seconds on the Scan D3004 silks and about 2 seconds on about everything else.

I heard new details in the percussion line all throughout the Dave Brubeck album “Take Five”. Most just minor subtleties I didn’t recognise were there before.

Paired with the Focal Utopia 3.5wm (tuned flat 400Hz to 3KHz) is a magical combo with this tweeter. Alice In Chains MTV Unplugged sounds so lifelike it's spooky. When the 3.5wm is tuned to behave itself (i.e. as flat as possible) it is unrivaled. Also, the Piccolo is the best sounding soft dome tweeter I have heard to date. It is perfectly balanced. It is highly detailed but at the same time serves that detail up only during appropriate times.

The soundstage is not as wide and dynamic with this combo as it was with the HCLD CompNeo horns. However, the stage is deeper and more intimate. The detail on the song “Rooster” is amazing. You can hear guitar strings buzzing on the left side and the loose guitar string bouncing all around on the right. Vocal tonality is perfect. It actually sounds like someone is in the room with you vs, listening to music. The same tune played back on many other speakers sounds great. But, you are listening to speakers. With this setup the speakers disappear.

Next up is the Calexico tunes “Crumble”, “Dub Latina”, and “El Picador”. The performance goes from sounding live and played back from studio monitors to just being live. The percussion and horns appear to be in the room with you. It’s like you are listening to them un-microphoned and raw right from the instruments. You can hear every little detail that is part of the music or not. This all adds to the illusion of realism. Reference the finger pricks on the guitars as the song “El Picador” is ending. You can make out 3 or 4 guitarists with the Piccolos, You can pick out 2, maybe 3 with the Scan D3004 silk.

Film sounds very good through these as well. The soundtrack and dialogue in the movie “Come to Daddy” was engaging and lifelike. The grotesque sounds in this film make you cringe.


I wasn’t expecting much of a difference moving from the 1st generation Piccolo to the 2nd generation. I was wrong. The V2 drivers opened up immediately. For one thing the soundstage expanded in width and depth by about 20%. They are very much the same tonally. However, they are even more detailed and accurate.

I now need to rank the 1st generation drivers 3.5 on the detail scale while the 2nd gen Piccolos win the top position at a perfect 4. I noticed even more content in my reference recordings that was missing before. The mixture between this and the enhanced sound stage make these tweeters sound as lifelike as I have ever heard.

At the very beginning of the song Alice in Chains “Over Now” I always thought Jerry Cantrell was clicking a drum stick on something at the beginning of the song. Listening through the Piccolo V2 I could clearly tell it was some sort of rattler.

I listened to Dave Brubeck's “Pick Up Sticks” again played back through the Piccolo V2’s. Oh my, what have I been missing all this time? The Piano and Paul’s alto sax sounded somewhat familiar like on the Scan D3004’s. However, the piano had more dynamic impact when Dave really laid it on the keys. The star of the show was the percussion. Wow. The cymbal rides on the left channel were so realistic. The V2’s also tended to open the room / performance up wider. The percussion is so crisp and lifelike. The sweet tone of Paul’s sax seemed enhanced but I can’t quite describe it.

Later I went back and compared “Pick Up Sticks'' again while comparing the Piccolo V2’s to the Focal TBXP’s. The two tweeters were very close on this tune. There was a slight difference in tonality between the two. Not enough to comment on. However, the Piccolo V2 seemed a little more open and airy. It set more of a holographic stage than the TBXP. And that’s about it. This song is great to listen to on either driver.

Note: I have no EQ on the Piccolo V2. I applied a -1dB high shelf filter set at 8KHz on the Focal TBXP to help smooth them out at the very top end.

I decided to also go back and listen to Calexico’s tune “Crumble” on the V2’s and directly compared them to the TBXP’s back to back.. Up until now I had only listened to it on the Piccolo V1’s. Piccolo V2 is lighter and more nimbal on the cymbals and snare. Stage a little deeper. Lead horn is brought up front while backup horns stay in the background. This creates layers of depth in the stage which sounds more realistic. Played back with the TBXP cymbals and snare are brought more forward and pronounced. Stage seems flatter with not as much depth. Horns are also brought forward. Lead horn at the same depth as background horns. Both tweeters are very pleasant to listen to. I just think the Piccolo sets a better layered stage. Identical tonality. Identical in detail.

A quick comparison of Gojira’s “Love”. The Piccolo V2’s played this track without stress as loud as I cared to listen. The presentation was powerful and full of detail. I can’t really name any flaws. I listened carefully for minute audible cues beyond the main action throughout the song. The same track played back on the Focal TBXP’s was slightly different as expected. However, at this time at high volume I sensed the TBXP’s lost a little bit of their fine detail. Some percussion events that the Piccolo’s picked up were absent on the TBXP’s while cranking the volume. However, with that aside the TBXP’s cast a nice wide soundstage that beat the Piccolo V2’s quite obviously. In this instance I feel the enhanced stage width beats the fine layering and enhanced stage depth of the Piccolo V2’s. I find it ironic how each tweeter keeps taking the lead in this review depending on the circumstances.

Electronic Metal tune “Downgrade Desert” by Igorrr contains intricate acoustic guitar work and Italian female Opera vocals throughout the song. This is mixed with driving metal guitar riffs and a pulsating drum line in a mash-up that just works. I listen to this track through the Piccolo V2’s and it just feels natural. Guitars and cymbal strikes are sharp and crisp. Vocals are clear and concise. The V2’s set a stage depth that seems to fit perfectly while watching the music video. The Scan D3004 silk’s also had excellent tonality but they just don’t open the stage up like the Piccolo V2’s do. The Focal TBXP’s had a voice of their own for this song. The acoustic guitar string plucks and cymbal strikes were a little more prominent. The stage was set a little wider but not as deep as the Piccolo V2’s. The same amount of detail was replicated in the recording. However, the stage depth was compressed in exchange to make it wider. It’s really a toss up which you like better. If using the music video as a visual while listening I think the Piccolo’s do a better job at portraying the massive size of an open desert. However, if listening to the song without the video backdrop the TBXP’s seemed a little sharper for a metal tune.

Melody Gardot “Bad News” There are light string pricks on metal acoustic guitar and percussion effects going on in the beginning of this song before Melody’s vocals come in that contain a lot of detail. Once the music starts there are supporting horns in the far background, a sax soloist behind Melody, and then finally Melody’s vocals up front. The percussion is in many layers starting front to back. I listened to the song on the Scan D3004 silks first. The song sounded cool and smooth like I believe it was intended to sound. At least until the tenor sax kicks in with his twisted and distorted notes. Melody's voice is soft yet sassy in this tune. A lot of contrasting sounds. The song was very engaging and pleasing to listen to. Switching over to the Piccolo V2’s the stage opened up like I’ve mentioned before. Instruments were located in different layers in space. There was also additional detail that did not exist when played back with the Scan’s. It sounded like going from a decent quality .mp3 recording to HiRes 96KHz/24bit. I notice a little bit of spitty sibilance in Melody's voice on the V2’s. This may be part of the recording. As expected, the TBXP’s offered even more detail. The soundstage was a bit wider. However, like before much of the music's content was smooshed together and drawn forward. The 3D holographic effect broke down a little. Melody's voice gained even more sizzle with the TBXP’s which I believe is a result of the additional detail. The wailing sax solo was very dynamic on the TBXP’s. It’s a real toss up which tweet I liked better here.

Mighty Sam McClain “When the Hurt is Love”. I tested three tweeters here. The Focal TBXP played this song back powerful and dynamic. However again, stage depth was a little flat. Instrument locations seemed to overlap each other. The Piccolo V2’s sounded similar tonally and had the same amount of detail. But, they offered a more rich field of depth and precise imaging. But, their presentation was not as dynamic and in your face like I thought they should when Sam’s voice climaxed. The Scan D3004 silks sounded very close to the V2’s without as much detail and field of depth. Although, it was hard to tell them apart. All three tweeters were pleasing to listen to. But, if I had to choose, the Piccolo V2 would be first followed by the TBXP and then the D3004 silk.

Miles Davis “All Blues” minute marker 1:40 is the beginning of Miles solo. The V2’s replicate the tone of Miles, Cannonball, and John’s horns perfectly like the Scan D3004 silk. However, they also establish an openness / spaciousness to the sound stage that the Scan D3004 silk’s do not. The percussion line is replicated with perfect precision. You can hear detail that was not there when listening through the Scan D3004 silks. Not as huge of a variance as the difference in staging but significant enough to notice.

Coming back to this song and comparing A/B against the Focal TBXP. Again, the TBXP is more forward. In some ways this is good. However, in my opinion it also has its faults. The TBXP tends to over accentuate the percussion in the right channel on this song which distracts from the solo’s. The TBXP is not as bad as it was before I added a -1dB high shelf filter. However, the Piccolo V2’s have it beat here. One of my opening statements was that the Piccolo is very detailed but only brings detail forward when appropriate. This is one of those instances. 

Panetra’s “This Love”. I felt the slightly softer voicing of the Piccolo V2 was at a slight disadvantage during this song. The Focal TBXP was more forward and edgy which seems fitting in this instance. The Focals also made the song sound fuller by bringing Philip's voice more up front. Philip seemed further back on the stage and more relaxed with the Piccolo V2’s. The Piccolo V2’s did resolve more of the background percussion detail however. The Piccolo’s made the song sound like it had more layers. But, let’s face it, this is a gritty metal tune. Folks aren’t using this piece for critical listening. The win goes to Focal TBXP.

Midway through the Patricia Barber song “Nardis” the percussion goes absolutely wild. To start you can hear the drum sticks just strike and glide off the hi-hats and cymbals. When they strike the toms you can hear every bit of detail as the stick strikes the drum skin. You can hear individual percussion events occurring distinctly all around you. When the drummer goes nuts at the 6:45 mark he continuously strikes a cymbal over and over again. On lesser tweeters like the Scan D3004 silk this sounds like one run-on cymbal ride. However, with the Piccolo V2’s you can hear every distinct strike of the cymbal while it crashes. As the song comes to a close at the 8:00 mark you can again hear intricate sounds and tones as the sticks dance and glide off the cymbals. It’s really something you need to hear to fully understand.

I compared this same song again 3X switching between the Piccolo V2’s and Focal TBXP. Both tweeters sounded great in their own way. I did notice the TBXP was more dynamic. The Piccolo V2 was slightly softer and more spry. The drum sticks seemed to just glide off the cymbals easier with the v2. 

I decided to go back through my Thievery Corporation set again since it sets a huge spacious soundstage. First up is “The Elis Affair”. I carefully listened to this track on both the Piccolo V2’s and the Focal TBXP’s. The further I studied it the more differences I found. 

The Piccolo V2’s frontal soundstage width ends pretty abruptly at the outer edges of the speakers. The soundstage created by the TBXP’s extends beyond the edge of the speakers. The Piccolo’s are the soundstage depth champions. Each sound effect and percussion event seemed to have it’s own location in 3D space starting from the face of the speakers and working backwards. Sounds appeared to extend beyond the width of the speakers but set back beyond them. The TBXP’s offered a fixed stage depth. Sounds were either right at the face of the speakers or set back by an equal distance. The location and depth of each sound was not as clear and focused. It was a little blurred.

The Piccolo’s had a slight bit more detail. They added a small bit of information on top of sound events during the song than the TBXP’s. I fear sounding like a fruity review writer for The Absolute Sound magazine. But, this is the best I can describe what I need to say next. The Piccolo’s had an additional sense of openness or air around the sound they produced vs. the TBXP’s. The TBXP’s replicated the same sounds. Most were with an equivalent amount of detail. But, some of them sounded forced where they sounded natural with the Piccolo V2’s. This is not obvious. But, can definitely be heard if you listen close enough.

So, where does that leave me? I’ve listened to three tweeters in this review. I’ve swapped them in and out and repeated listening to the same tunes over and over again. I have an understanding how each performed on almost every track.

If I was going to install a set of tweets in my daily driver and had a commute up and down congested highways on a daily basis I might just install the Scan D3004 silk’s. They have great tonality and are detailed enough. Anything else may be wasted being drowned out by road noise.

If I did some critical listening in my car while parked or at a stand still the TBXP’s would be a great choice. They are very detailed and offer a nice wide soundstage. If you are a rock or metal fan you’ll love their dynamics.

However, if I were going to build a competition vehicle or just wanted the absolute best sound I could get in my car I might just choose the Piccolo V2’s. They are very detailed and the most lifelike of the bunch. If you’re an unplugged / acoustic or Jazz music fan these are for you. Or, if you just want an overall perfectly balanced sound then these are for you.

In the end it all comes down to personal preference. And, this is just my opinion...


*Morel Supremo Piccolo v2 tweeter rating:*

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 4 of 4
Spaciousness 4 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 4 of 4
Dynamics 3 of 4


----------



## MythosDreamLab

Another great write up, even though of ALL the songs you mentioned - the only song I actually know (and own) is Take Five...!


----------



## Ge0

MythosDreamLab said:


> Another great write up, even though of ALL the songs you mentioned - the only song I actually know (and own) is Take Five...!


Youtube... Or follow bbphotos posts more closely


----------



## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> *REVIEW: Morel Supremo Piccolo tweeter paired with Focal Utopia 3.5wm midrange*
> 
> View attachment 294357
> 
> 
> View attachment 294358
> 
> 
> View attachment 294359
> 
> 
> View attachment 294360
> 
> 
> View attachment 294361
> 
> 
> Before listening to the Piccolo’s I reviewed the Scan D3004 Be tweeters. The Piccolo’s are as accurate as the Scan Be but much more musical. They do not bring out every detail all at once (like the Scan Be) but rather only what needs to be. As a result, the Piccolo’s sound is more natural. I also switched from both the Dyn MD102’s and the Scan D3004 silks to listen to the Piccolo’s. Holy [email protected] what a difference! The Piccolo’s sound much more lifelike.
> 
> I just reviewed the Focal TBXP tweeter as well. I compared it to a lot of my notes based on my early findings with the Piccolo V2. So, in certain instances I am going to switch back and forth between the tweeters to make further comparisons. You can refer back to my TBXP review to see how the Piccolo V2’s compared to the TBXP’s. Although, I didn’t do A/B comparisons while conducting that review.
> 
> I started with evaluating a set of Piccolo V2’s on loan. I liked them so much I sought out to buy a set for myself. I now own a set of 1st (V1) and 2nd (V2) generation drivers.
> 
> My initial test on the Piccolo V2’s and Scan D3004 Be was paired with the Dynaudio Esotar2 E430 midange. This is a killer combo that I will go in further when I publish my review of the E430. I later switched back to the Focal Utopia 3.5wm’s. And that’s what I am basing the rest of this review on.
> 
> 
> Here is my take on the 1st generation Piccolo drivers:
> 
> The Dave Brubeck song “Three to Get Ready” starts with light cymbal taps. These simple taps sound amazing on the Piccolo’s. To give you an idea each tap rings for around 4 seconds on the Piccolo’s. They just gently taper off. In retrospect they last about 3 seconds on the Scan D3004 silks and about 2 seconds on about everything else.
> 
> I heard new details in the percussion line all throughout the Dave Brubeck album “Take Five”. Most just minor subtleties I didn’t recognise were there before.
> 
> Paired with the Focal Utopia 3.5wm (tuned flat 400Hz to 3KHz) is a magical combo with this tweeter. Alice In Chains MTV Unplugged sounds so lifelike it's spooky. When the 3.5wm is tuned to behave itself (i.e. as flat as possible) it is unrivaled. Also, the Piccolo is the best sounding soft dome tweeter I have heard to date. It is perfectly balanced. It is highly detailed but at the same time serves that detail up only during appropriate times.
> 
> The soundstage is not as wide and dynamic with this combo as it was with the HCLD CompNeo horns. However, the stage is deeper and more intimate. The detail on the song “Rooster” is amazing. You can hear guitar strings buzzing on the left side and the loose guitar string bouncing all around on the right. Vocal tonality is perfect. It actually sounds like someone is in the room with you vs, listening to music. The same tune played back on many other speakers sounds great. But, you are listening to speakers. With this setup the speakers disappear.
> 
> Next up is the Calexico tunes “Crumble”, “Dub Latina”, and “El Picador”. The performance goes from sounding live and played back from studio monitors to just being live. The percussion and horns appear to be in the room with you. It’s like you are listening to them un-microphoned and raw right from the instruments. You can hear every little detail that is part of the music or not. This all adds to the illusion of realism. Reference the finger pricks on the guitars as the song “El Picador” is ending. You can make out 3 or 4 guitarists with the Piccolos, You can pick out 2, maybe 3 with the Scan D3004 silk.
> 
> Film sounds very good through these as well. The soundtrack and dialogue in the movie “Come to Daddy” was engaging and lifelike. The grotesque sounds in this film make you cringe.
> 
> 
> I wasn’t expecting much of a difference moving from the 1st generation Piccolo to the 2nd generation. I was wrong. The V2 drivers opened up immediately. For one thing the soundstage expanded in width and depth by about 20%. They are very much the same tonally. However, they are even more detailed and accurate.
> 
> I now need to rank the 1st generation drivers 3.5 on the detail scale while the 2nd gen Piccolos win the top position at a perfect 4. I noticed even more content in my reference recordings that was missing before. The mixture between this and the enhanced sound stage make these tweeters sound as lifelike as I have ever heard.
> 
> At the very beginning of the song Alice in Chains “Over Now” I always thought Jerry Cantrell was clicking a drum stick on something at the beginning of the song. Listening through the Piccolo V2 I could clearly tell it was some sort of rattler.
> 
> I listened to Dave Brubeck's “Pick Up Sticks” again played back through the Piccolo V2’s. Oh my, what have I been missing all this time? The Piano and Paul’s alto sax sounded somewhat familiar like on the Scan D3004’s. However, the piano had more dynamic impact when Dave really laid it on the keys. The star of the show was the percussion. Wow. The cymbal rides on the left channel were so realistic. The V2’s also tended to open the room / performance up wider. The percussion is so crisp and lifelike. The sweet tone of Paul’s sax seemed enhanced but I can’t quite describe it.
> 
> Later I went back and compared “Pick Up Sticks'' again while comparing the Piccolo V2’s to the Focal TBXP’s. The two tweeters were very close on this tune. There was a slight difference in tonality between the two. Not enough to comment on. However, the Piccolo V2 seemed a little more open and airy. It set more of a holographic stage than the TBXP. And that’s about it. This song is great to listen to on either driver.
> 
> Note: I have no EQ on the Piccolo V2. I applied a -1dB high shelf filter set at 8KHz on the Focal TBXP to help smooth them out at the very top end.
> 
> I decided to also go back and listen to Calexico’s tune “Crumble” on the V2’s and directly compared them to the TBXP’s back to back.. Up until now I had only listened to it on the Piccolo V1’s. Piccolo V2 is lighter and more nimbal on the cymbals and snare. Stage a little deeper. Lead horn is brought up front while backup horns stay in the background. This creates layers of depth in the stage which sounds more realistic. Played back with the TBXP cymbals and snare are brought more forward and pronounced. Stage seems flatter with not as much depth. Horns are also brought forward. Lead horn at the same depth as background horns. Both tweeters are very pleasant to listen to. I just think the Piccolo sets a better layered stage. Identical tonality. Identical in detail.
> 
> A quick comparison of Gojira’s “Love”. The Piccolo V2’s played this track without stress as loud as I cared to listen. The presentation was powerful and full of detail. I can’t really name any flaws. I listened carefully for minute audible cues beyond the main action throughout the song. The same track played back on the Focal TBXP’s was slightly different as expected. However, at this time at high volume I sensed the TBXP’s lost a little bit of their fine detail. Some percussion events that the Piccolo’s picked up were absent on the TBXP’s while cranking the volume. However, with that aside the TBXP’s cast a nice wide soundstage that beat the Piccolo V2’s quite obviously. In this instance I feel the enhanced stage width beats the fine layering and enhanced stage depth of the Piccolo V2’s. I find it ironic how each tweeter keeps taking the lead in this review depending on the circumstances.
> 
> Electronic Metal tune “Downgrade Desert” by Igorrr contains intricate acoustic guitar work and Italian female Opera vocals throughout the song. This is mixed with driving metal guitar riffs and a pulsating drum line in a mash-up that just works. I listen to this track through the Piccolo V2’s and it just feels natural. Guitars and cymbal strikes are sharp and crisp. Vocals are clear and concise. The V2’s set a stage depth that seems to fit perfectly while watching the music video. The Scan D3004 silk’s also had excellent tonality but they just don’t open the stage up like the Piccolo V2’s do. The Focal TBXP’s had a voice of their own for this song. The acoustic guitar string plucks and cymbal strikes were a little more prominent. The stage was set a little wider but not as deep as the Piccolo V2’s. The same amount of detail was replicated in the recording. However, the stage depth was compressed in exchange to make it wider. It’s really a toss up which you like better. If using the music video as a visual while listening I think the Piccolo’s do a better job at portraying the massive size of an open desert. However, if listening to the song without the video backdrop the TBXP’s seemed a little sharper for a metal tune.
> 
> Melody Gardot “Bad News” There are light string pricks on metal acoustic guitar and percussion effects going on in the beginning of this song before Melody’s vocals come in that contain a lot of detail. Once the music starts there are supporting horns in the far background, a sax soloist behind Melody, and then finally Melody’s vocals up front. The percussion is in many layers starting front to back. I listened to the song on the Scan D3004 silks first. The song sounded cool and smooth like I believe it was intended to sound. At least until the tenor sax kicks in with his twisted and distorted notes. Melody's voice is soft yet sassy in this tune. A lot of contrasting sounds. The song was very engaging and pleasing to listen to. Switching over to the Piccolo V2’s the stage opened up like I’ve mentioned before. Instruments were located in different layers in space. There was also additional detail that did not exist when played back with the Scan’s. It sounded like going from a decent quality .mp3 recording to HiRes 96KHz/24bit. I notice a little bit of spitty sibilance in Melody's voice on the V2’s. This may be part of the recording. As expected, the TBXP’s offered even more detail. The soundstage was a bit wider. However, like before much of the music's content was smooshed together and drawn forward. The 3D holographic effect broke down a little. Melody's voice gained even more sizzle with the TBXP’s which I believe is a result of the additional detail. The wailing sax solo was very dynamic on the TBXP’s. It’s a real toss up which tweet I liked better here.
> 
> Mighty Sam McClain “When the Hurt is Love”. I tested three tweeters here. The Focal TBXP played this song back powerful and dynamic. However again, stage depth was a little flat. Instrument locations seemed to overlap each other. The Piccolo V2’s sounded similar tonally and had the same amount of detail. But, they offered a more rich field of depth and precise imaging. But, their presentation was not as dynamic and in your face like I thought they should when Sam’s voice climaxed. The Scan D3004 silks sounded very close to the V2’s without as much detail and field of depth. Although, it was hard to tell them apart. All three tweeters were pleasing to listen to. But, if I had to choose, the Piccolo V2 would be first followed by the TBXP and then the D3004 silk.
> 
> Miles Davis “All Blues” minute marker 1:40 is the beginning of Miles solo. The V2’s replicate the tone of Miles, Cannonball, and John’s horns perfectly like the Scan D3004 silk. However, they also establish an openness / spaciousness to the sound stage that the Scan D3004 silk’s do not. The percussion line is replicated with perfect precision. You can hear detail that was not there when listening through the Scan D3004 silks. Not as huge of a variance as the difference in staging but significant enough to notice.
> 
> Coming back to this song and comparing A/B against the Focal TBXP. Again, the TBXP is more forward. In some ways this is good. However, in my opinion it also has its faults. The TBXP tends to over accentuate the percussion in the right channel on this song which distracts from the solo’s. The TBXP is not as bad as it was before I added a -1dB high shelf filter. However, the Piccolo V2’s have it beat here. One of my opening statements was that the Piccolo is very detailed but only brings detail forward when appropriate. This is one of those instances.
> 
> Panetra’s “This Love”. I felt the slightly softer voicing of the Piccolo V2 was at a slight disadvantage during this song. The Focal TBXP was more forward and edgy which seems fitting in this instance. The Focals also made the song sound fuller by bringing Philip's voice more up front. Philip seemed further back on the stage and more relaxed with the Piccolo V2’s. The Piccolo V2’s did resolve more of the background percussion detail however. The Piccolo’s made the song sound like it had more layers. But, let’s face it, this is a gritty metal tune. Folks aren’t using this piece for critical listening. The win goes to Focal TBXP.
> 
> Midway through the Patricia Barber song “Nardis” the percussion goes absolutely wild. To start you can hear the drum sticks just strike and glide off the hi-hats and cymbals. When they strike the toms you can hear every bit of detail as the stick strikes the drum skin. You can hear individual percussion events occurring distinctly all around you. When the drummer goes nuts at the 6:45 mark he continuously strikes a cymbal over and over again. On lesser tweeters like the Scan D3004 silk this sounds like one run-on cymbal ride. However, with the Piccolo V2’s you can hear every distinct strike of the cymbal while it crashes. As the song comes to a close at the 8:00 mark you can again hear intricate sounds and tones as the sticks dance and glide off the cymbals. It’s really something you need to hear to fully understand.
> 
> I compared this same song again 3X switching between the Piccolo V2’s and Focal TBXP. Both tweeters sounded great in their own way. I did notice the TBXP was more dynamic. The Piccolo V2 was slightly softer and more spry. The drum sticks seemed to just glide off the cymbals easier with the v2.
> 
> I decided to go back through my Thievery Corporation set again since it sets a huge spacious soundstage. First up is “The Elis Affair”. I carefully listened to this track on both the Piccolo V2’s and the Focal TBXP’s. The further I studied it the more differences I found.
> 
> The Piccolo V2’s frontal soundstage width ends pretty abruptly at the outer edges of the speakers. The soundstage created by the TBXP’s extends beyond the edge of the speakers. The Piccolo’s are the soundstage depth champions. Each sound effect and percussion event seemed to have it’s own location in 3D space starting from the face of the speakers and working backwards. Sounds appeared to extend beyond the width of the speakers but set back beyond them. The TBXP’s offered a fixed stage depth. Sounds were either right at the face of the speakers or set back by an equal distance. The location and depth of each sound was not as clear and focused. It was a little blurred.
> 
> The Piccolo’s had a slight bit more detail. They added a small bit of information on top of sound events during the song than the TBXP’s. I fear sounding like a fruity review writer for The Absolute Sound magazine. But, this is the best I can describe what I need to say next. The Piccolo’s had an additional sense of openness or air around the sound they produced vs. the TBXP’s. The TBXP’s replicated the same sounds. Most were with an equivalent amount of detail. But, some of them sounded forced where they sounded natural with the Piccolo V2’s. This is not obvious. But, can definitely be heard if you listen close enough.
> 
> So, where does that leave me? I’ve listened to three tweeters in this review. I’ve swapped them in and out and repeated listening to the same tunes over and over again. I have an understanding how each performed on almost every track.
> 
> If I was going to install a set of tweets in my daily driver and had a commute up and down congested highways on a daily basis I might just install the Scan D3004 silk’s. They have great tonality and are detailed enough. Anything else may be wasted being drowned out by road noise.
> 
> If I did some critical listening in my car while parked or at a stand still the TBXP’s would be a great choice. They are very detailed and offer a nice wide soundstage. If you are a rock or metal fan you’ll love their dynamics.
> 
> However, if I were going to build a competition vehicle or just wanted the absolute best sound I could get in my car I might just choose the Piccolo V2’s. They are very detailed and the most lifelike of the bunch. If you’re an unplugged / acoustic or Jazz music fan these are for you. Or, if you just want an overall perfectly balanced sound then these are for you.
> 
> In the end it all comes down to personal preference. And, this is just my opinion...
> 
> 
> *Morel Supremo Piccolo v2 tweeter rating:*
> 
> Tonality 4 of 4
> Detail 4 of 4
> Spaciousness 4 of 4
> Harshness (lack of) 4 of 4
> Dynamics 3 of 4


I wonder how much better the TBM is to the other Focal tweeter


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## dgage

Elektra said:


> I wonder how much better the TBM is to the other Focal tweeter


He should have them tomorrow so hopefully he’ll be able to find out when he gets time. One interesting thing I noticed between the Piccolo and TBM is the sensitivity difference of 90 dB vs 95 dB respectively at 2.83V. Will be interesting to read whether that plays much of a role as it didn’t seem like the Piccolos have any issue getting loud based On my reading of the review.

And fantastic review. So much music I don’t have.


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## Elektra

dgage said:


> He should have them tomorrow so hopefully he’ll be able to find out when he gets time. One interesting thing I noticed between the Piccolo and TBM is the sensitivity difference of 90 dB vs 95 dB respectively at 2.83V. Will be interesting to read whether that plays much of a role as it didn’t seem like the Piccolos have any issue getting loud based On my reading of the review.
> 
> And fantastic review. So much music I don’t have.


Well the TBM costs twice as much so I wonder if that translates into the way they sound. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JCsAudio

I told you those Piccolos were something special. Very nice reviews BTW, I’m enjoying them very much.


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## Mullings

Great write up but I think your a little too generous on the scoring lol, say you find a tweeter that does something better than all the tweeters you’ve already tested, how would you score that tweeter? Great write up though.


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## Ge0

Mullings said:


> Great write up but I think your a little too generous on the scoring lol, say you find a tweeter that does something better than all the tweeters you’ve already tested, how would you score that tweeter? Great write up though.


Look at my dynamics score on the Horns .

Seriously though. My original thought was to do like Jerry did years ago with his mid-range shootout. Three buckets only. But, some speakers are very close in some aspects but such in others. That's where I decided on a rating system for different characteristics.

I will adjust the scales in my reviews once I stumble across better drivers. But let's be honest, considering what I have published so far I'm not going to find much better, At least not within my budget


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## Elektra

Are the V2 piccolo’s from the S02 set? 


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## spent

Since I ended up buying a pair of Focal 3.5WM's due to your recommendation, do you have any experience with Dynaudio Esotar2 110's? I'm trying to decide if they are worth keeping since they take up so much space on my dash. I mean they sound amazing, but maybe other tweets out there are comparable with a much smaller footprint.


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## Ge0

spent said:


> Since I ended up buying a pair of Focal 3.5WM's due to your recommendation, do you have any experience with Dynaudio Esotar2 110's? I'm trying to decide if they are worth keeping since they take up so much space on my dash. I mean they sound amazing, but maybe other tweets out there are comparable with a much smaller footprint.


No, I do not have experience with the E110. It's too big for my application and very expensive so I didn't bother trying.


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## Clvol1255

Elektra said:


> I wonder how much better the TBM is to the other Focal tweeter
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


..


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## spent

Again, thanks for putting all the time and effort into this as it's very interesting, educational and helpful as a car audio enthusiast/consumer.


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## Clvol1255

Ge0 said:


> No, I do not have experience with the E110. It's too big for my application and very expensive so I didn't bother trying.


The real question is what RCAs are you using for this test?! lol


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## Ge0

Elektra said:


> Are the V2 piccolo’s from the S02 set?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not sure. I just spoke with Morel about the differences between V1 and V2. The V2 has a redesigned magnet structure and voice coil. It's face is also polished aluminum vs. painted grey.


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## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> Not sure. I just spoke with Morel about the differences between V1 and V2. The V2 has a redesigned magnet structure and voice coil. It's face is also polished aluminum vs. painted grey.
> 
> View attachment 294387
> 
> 
> View attachment 294388


Must be the one from the S02 set... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ge0

Elektra said:


> Well the TBM costs twice as much so I wonder if that translates into the way they sound.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am dying to find out as well. I'm going to place a high priority on finding out


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## Ge0

Clvol1255 said:


> The real question is what RCAs are you using for this test?! lol


Optical!!!


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## MythosDreamLab

Ge0 said:


> I am dying to find out as well. I'm going to place a high priority on finding out


Is there a Serial number on them? If so, you may be able to contact Morel directly with it and ask, set Tweeters may have a different series of numbers than stand alone tweeters...


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## Ge0

MythosDreamLab said:


> Is there a Serial number on them? If so, you may be able to contact Morel directly with it and ask, set Tweeters may have a different series of numbers than stand alone tweeters...


The Piccolos just have 5 digital sequential serial numbers. My V1's are in the 05xxx range. My V2's are in the 21xxx range.


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## Ge0

A gift from Dave


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## Clvol1255

Ohhhh my


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## MythosDreamLab

*Here we go Focal fans....!*


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## Clvol1255

O V at least for my ears


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## dgage

Before you do any more testing, can you rotate the Focal 3.5 WM so the wording is straight? 😜


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## 6262ms3

Ge0, I just wanted to say I really appreciate the effort and detail you're putting into this. Great writeups so far! 

Also, I'm a Calexico fan so I'm glad you're using some of their tracks for reference. "Quattro (World Drifts In)" from Feast of Wire is a regular go-to for me.

I've suspected for awhile that I would love a horn setup, your review of the Stevens horns makes me want to try them so bad! I wish there was a practical way to fit them (and high-efficiency mid-basses) in a manual-transmission Golf daily driver...


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## Ge0

dgage said:


> Before you do any more testing, can you rotate the Focal 3.5 WM so the wording is straight? 😜


I believe I already explained that one sir 😉. I could either spend this afternoon building a new baffle to look aesthetically pleasing or listening to good music. Hmmm...🤔. I choose to listen. 🔊🎵🎶


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## Ge0

6262ms3 said:


> Ge0, I just wanted to say I really appreciate the effort and detail you're putting into this. Great writeups so far!
> 
> Also, I'm a Calexico fan so I'm glad you're using some of their tracks for reference. "Quattro (World Drifts In)" from Feast of Wire is a regular go-to for me.
> 
> I've suspected for awhile that I would love a horn setup, your review of the Stevens horns makes me want to try them so bad! I wish there was a practical way to fit them (and high-efficiency mid-basses) in a manual-transmission Golf daily driver...


I didn't get to try the compact body horns. Those are more practical. But, I don't know what you give up.


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## bbfoto

Another fantastic review and write-up, G. Thank you. 

I can't help but wonder how your impressions of the sound stage and imaging between the different tweeters might change if the center-to-center spacing between the midrange and tweeters were closer.

The vertical lobing & comb filtering effects resulting from that usually translate to the quality of the imaging and sound stage, as well as the potential "forwardness".

I say this because the dispersion characteristics of the Focal inverted domes are a bit different than that of typical dome tweeters, and that most likely would cause the comb filtering and vertical lobing effects to be quite different between the different tweeters.

Having said that, at least you are comparing all of them with the same c-to-c spacing so it's apples-to-apples.

It's also great that you are using a lot of tracks that I'm very familiar with.  I've been a Calexico fan since _The Black Light_ was first released and am familiar with 95% of the other tracks you're using as well, so... 

I think it's important for the folks reading your reviews to know and have heard the specific tracks you are using so that they have some frame of reference and can correlate your descriptions to their own knowledge of each particular track.

If I can find some time I will try to post up more of the tracks that I have from your review.

And if you haven't already, give that Opus 3 Records, Cyndee Peters & Eric Bibb "House of the Rising Sun" track a listen.


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## Ge0

bbfoto said:


> Another fantastic review and write-up, G. Thank you.
> 
> I can't help but wonder how your impressions of the sound stage and imaging might change if the center-to-center spacing between the midrange and tweeters were closer.
> 
> The vertical lobing & comb filtering effects resulting from that usually translate to the quality of the imaging and sound stage, as well as the potential "forwardness".
> 
> Having said that, at least you are comparing all of them with the same c-to-c spacing so it's apples-to-apples.
> 
> It's also great that you are using a lot of tracks that I'm very familiar with.  I've been a Calexico fan since _The Black Light_ was first released and am familiar with 95% of the tracks you're using, so...
> 
> I think it's important for the folks reading your reviews to know and have heard the specific tracks you are using so that they have some frame of reference and can correlate your descriptions to their own knowledge of each particular track.
> 
> If I can find some time I will try to post up more of the tracks that I have from your review.


I've been adding in some of the tracks you provided in substitute for tracks in my list I was hardly using.

I could build more baffles that place drivers closer. My problem is I wanted to fit the widest selection of drivers as possible on the same baffles. Some have larger mounting flanges than others. I could probably scoot them 1/2" closer but not much more.

I also tried this experiment per Seafish's suggestion:









The acoustic felt was supposed to help lessen the affects of baffle edge diffraction. It didn't. It created some nasty response anomalies.


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## Clvol1255

@Geo it’s definitely appreciated I personally am just giving you $hit in this thread like you do me lol


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## Ge0

Clvol1255 said:


> @Geo it’s definitely appreciated I personally am just giving you $hit in this thread like you do me lol


All is good. Fugg'em if they can't take a light hearted joke


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## Ge0

*Preliminary Review: Focal Utopia M TBM Beryllium dome tweeter with 3.5wm midrange*

OK now what? I'm stumped. I was so looking forward to having a brutal battle between Focal TBM and Morel Supremo Piccolo tweeters. I was confident one would be far superior. One must come out the clear winner. I was a little biased towards the Focal because of its cost. Both are aesthetically pleasing. It's a wash there. But how do they sound?

The truth of the matter. I can't tell them apart. They sound identical in almost every aspect. At times I think one has better stage depth. At times one has greater detail. But, the differences are so minute it's difficult to say for sure. I went through much of my music library that I've used so far. I was counting on typing paragraphs to describe the differences and preferences I heard. But, I just don't hear a big enough difference with my current material. These tweeter's are that close in performance / quality. Both sound absolutely exquisite. Tonality the same. Detail the same. No harshness on either. Staging is to close to call. Sadly I wasn't able to test dynamic range today due to family in the house. But I can tomorrow 

I think I've exhausted my ability to judge these two using current material. Therefore, I am going to switch it up to competition demo discs to play highly technical tracks. Maybe I will be able to pinpoint something tomorrow.

All I can say for tonight is that I love the sound of the Focal TBM's. They kick some serious butt. However, they sound just like the Piccolo's which also kick serious butt. Did I mention the Piccolo's are 1/2 the cost?

And that is that. Anyone care to comment or lend me some advice?


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## MythosDreamLab

Two things, before you get overly biased one way or another, I was hoping for a TBM vs TBXP comparison? Is that coming?

Second, they are gonna sound slightly different in you car, right? Maybe one will outshine the other when road noise is introduced...

Lastly, think of the two tweeters as two beautiful women, slightly different, but equally beautiful in their own way... Don't agonize, don't wait, just go for one of them and ENJOY...!


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## Ge0

MythosDreamLab said:


> Two things, before you get overly biased one way or another, I was hoping for a TBM vs TBXP comparison? Is that coming?
> 
> Second, they are gonna sound slightly different in you car, right? Maybe one will outshine the other when road noise is introduced...
> 
> Lastly, think of the two tweeters as two beautiful women, slightly different, but equally beautiful in their own way... Don't agonize, don't wait, just go for one of them and ENJOY...!


So here is the rub. I won't publish a TBM vs. TBXP review since I believe that has already been summarized with the Piccolo vs. TBXP reviews. I am not being lazy here. I'm dead serious.

I could post a review where I find and replace "Piccolo" with "TBM" but I don't think that would offer any value add.

As far as what will go in my vehicle next month? Well, the Piccolo's are sweet and less expensive. However, they are also larger and harder to package without spending big time / money on pillar work. The TBM's are compact enough and definitely shallow enough to package about anywhere. So that cost needs to be taken into consideration.


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## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> So here is the rub. I won't publish a TBM vs. TBXP review since I believe that has already been summarized with the Piccolo vs. TBXP reviews. I am not being lazy here. I'm dead serious.
> 
> I could post a review where I find and replace "Piccolo" with "TBM" but I don't think that would offer any value add.
> 
> As far as what will go in my vehicle next month? Well, the Piccolo's are sweet and less expensive. However, they are also larger and harder to package without spending big time / money on pillar work. The TBM's are compact enough and definitely shallow enough to package about anywhere. So that cost needs to be taken into consideration.


Did you try with and without the back cap? On the TBM’s..


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## Ge0

Elektra said:


> Did you try with and without the back cap? On the TBM’s..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No I did not. All that does is raise Fs and add a bump in response. I'm already crossing them over higher than this would impact. But, just for sh!ts n giggles I'll try that today.

Just to make it clear. There is nothing wrong with them the way they are. Without the back cap.


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## Clvol1255

Are both TBXP and TBMs you have broke in somewhat equally? I’ve been told they both open up a lot after 10-20 hours listening. My TBXP definitely got better with listening daily. TBM are still far away from broke in for me but subtlety sound better in every category. Only thing I prefer more from TBXP is they’re more in your face sounding. TBM seem a bit too laid back right now for my liking

off topic question here but what dB level do you SQ guys tune to? I’ve been told by some very knowledgeable tuners to play pink noise back around thevolume you’ll listen at usually but didn’t get any more advice out of them than that.


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## Ge0

Clvol1255 said:


> Are both TBXP and TBMs you have broke in somewhat equally? I’ve been told they both open up a lot after 10-20 hours listening. My TBXP definitely got better with listening daily. TBM are still far away from broke in for me but subtlety sound better in every category. Only thing I prefer more from TBXP is they’re more in your face sounding. TBM seem a bit too laid back right now for my liking


I have roughly 20 hours of actual listening on the TBXP. I have no idea how much play time (if any) is on the TBM's. They are not mine. I borrowing them from Dave for this review.

Being "in your face" appears to be a design characteristic of the TBXP's. Yes, the TBM's are more laid back. This because they add stage depth. This can cause vocals to be softer or set / laid back into the stage.


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## Clvol1255

Ge0 said:


> I have roughly 20 hours of actual listening on the TBXP. I have no idea how much play time (if any) is on the TBM's. They are not mine. I borrowing them from Dave for this review.
> 
> Being "in your face" appears to be a design characteristic of the TBXP's. Yes, the TBM's are more laid back. This because they add stage depth. This can cause vocals to be softer or set / laid back into the stage.


Yes definitely a characteristic I’ve noticed too and the pros that offers does a ****ty tuned like myself no good bc I I haven’t figured out how to get staging or phasing correct on any setup I’ve had. After more listening I’m gonna need them to open up more and stop being so laid back sounding like a damn Morel to keep them over the TBXP. Yes they sound very good but the crisp is gone compared to TBXP. Maybe they’re more laid back bc the WM 3.5 is a little more forward sounding and detailed with orca reps recommending on sheet specs and via email to cross M utopias at 5khz. I’m going to attempt tuning with recommended xover points. My TBMs sounded better to me a couple days ago when I was listening with exact tuning the TBXPs had. Now that I’ve messed with it I’ve jacked something all up bc the crisp in your face without any harshness edge has gone away or it’s just the TBMs and now they’re supposed to sound


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## Ge0

Clvol1255 said:


> Yes definitely a characteristic I’ve noticed too and the pros that offers does a ****ty tuned like myself no good bc I I haven’t figured out how to get staging or phasing correct on any setup I’ve had. After more listening I’m gonna need them to open up more and stop being so laid back sounding like a damn Morel to keep them over the TBXP. Yes they sound very good but the crisp is gone compared to TBXP. Maybe they’re more laid back bc the WM 3.5 is a little more forward sounding and detailed with orca reps recommending on sheet specs and via email to cross M utopias at 5khz. I’m going to attempt tuning with recommended xover points


Screw recommended crossover points. You have your midranges off axis on your build and your tweets on axis. Use as much of the tweets bandwidth as you can. You could lower your crossover point to 3KHz. Don't raise it to 5KHz with your midranges mounted the way they are.


----------



## preston

I'm a big believer in the audiophile principle of once you spend more than $300 on your tweeters, you should run their bandwidth as wide as you can LOL.


----------



## daloudin

I realize that this is starting to stray from the original mission statement of comparing the individual components but... Maybe pair them with their sibling mids and try running passive? Thinking along the lines of using the component kits with each one: Focal Utopia TBM 165W-RC / Morel Supremo 602 and see if there's any validity to the claim that either of them do any magic in their crossovers?

Just my .02

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Elektra

So is it the general consensus that the TBM and Morel Piccolo tweeters are the best tweeters so far? Forget about the price compared to cheaper tweeters...


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## Clvol1255

Wash all i mentioned above I saved tune with a mid range muted on dsp earlier. Found my too laid back issue. Haven’t heard piccolos but TBM is the **** imho


----------



## Ge0

daloudin said:


> I realize that this is starting to stray from the original mission statement of comparing the individual components but... Maybe pair them with their sibling mids and try running passive? Thinking along the lines of using the component kits with each one: Focal Utopia TBM 165W-RC / Morel Supremo 602 and see if there's any validity to the claim that either of them do any magic in their crossovers?
> 
> Just my .02
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Nope. No passives. Wouldn't use them even if I had them.


----------



## Ge0

Elektra said:


> So is it the general consensus that the TBM and Morel Piccolo tweeters are the best tweeters so far? Forget about the price compared to cheaper tweeters...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, they are my favorite conventional tweeters so far. I also loved the listening experience on the horns but that's a different category all together.

I'm going to spend some time this weekend studying / comparing both tweeters.


----------



## Ge0

preston said:


> I'm a big believer in the audiophile principle of once you spend more than $300 on your tweeters, you should run their bandwidth as wide as you can LOL.


How about midranges?


----------



## preston

Ge0 said:


> How about midranges ?


Midranges already seem to cover the most octaves at least in my systems, so your just balancing things out !


----------



## daloudin

Ge0 said:


> Nope. No passives. Wouldn't use them even if I had them.


Understood and expected. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Ge0

daloudin said:


> Understood and expected.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Even my home systems are entirely active. I like the ability to fine tune for a driver in its intended environment. Albeit home systems don't require as much room correction. But, they still require some.


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## daloudin

Ge0 said:


> Even my home systems are entirely active. I like the ability to fine tune for a driver in its intended environment. Albeit home systems don't require as much room correction. But, they still require some.


DSP and digital have made crossover design, impedance compensating and zobel networks a thing of the past. We used to spend weeks hand matching xover components to drivers to smooth out response and now you can make those same changes in minutes in the DSP.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Ge0

daloudin said:


> DSP and digital have made crossover design, impedance compensating and zobel networks a thing of the past. We used to spend weeks hand matching xover components to drivers to smooth out response and now you can make those same changes in minutes in the DSP.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Not to mention that those crossover designs make the speaker sound optimal in an optimal listening environment with a microphone sitting close and pointe right at them. Optimal crossovers are only great for optimal conditions.

Place some hard plastic and glass around those multi-thousand dollar home monitors and see how the fare.

I believe active speakers are the way of the future. You can buy a plate amp with a couple 250 or 500 watt channels and full DSP in a package no larger than 3 iPhones stacked on top of each other. These amps have a lower THD and noise floor than anything you have ever heard. They are available now and coming to the main stream in the next few years.


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## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> Not to mention that those crossover designs make the speaker sound optimal in an optimal listening environment with a microphone sitting close and pointe right at them. Optimal crossovers are only great for optimal conditions.
> 
> Place some hard plastic and glass around those multi-thousand dollar home monitors and see how the fare.
> 
> I believe active speakers are the way of the future. You can buy a plate amp with a couple 250 or 500 watt channels and full DSP in a package no larger than 3 iPhones stacked on top of each other. These amps have a lower THD and noise floor than anything you have ever heard. They are available now and coming to the main stream in the next few years.


I still think there is a place for passives with a DSP... 


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## Ge0

Elektra said:


> I still think there is a place for passives with a DSP...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah. Even I keep a protective capacitor on my tweeters just in case the DSP glitches


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## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> Yeah. Even I keep a protective capacitor on my tweeters just in case the DSP glitches


Today my Brax MX4 went into protection and the ZED Audio Duece didn’t want to turn on which left me no choice to use the Brax MX2 to run my 3 way through a Brax 3 way passive... 

With some tuning on the DSP I actually got the car to sound pretty damn good... 

No clue why the ZED suddenly stopped working the moment the MX4 went into protection...


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## cman

Elektra said:


> Today my Brax MX4 went into protection and the ZED Audio Duece didn’t want to turn on which left me no choice to use the Brax MX2 to run my 3 way through a Brax 3 way passive...
> 
> With some tuning on the DSP I actually got the car to sound pretty damn good...
> 
> No clue why the ZED suddenly stopped working the moment the MX4 went into protection...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would be crying....


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## Elektra

cman said:


> I would be crying....


Yeah I am holding back the tears... I hope it’s a small issue that can be sorted locally or I’ll have to ship the amp to Germany


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## cman

Ge0 said:


> Even my home systems are entirely active. I like the ability to fine tune for a driver in its intended environment. Albeit home systems don't require as much room correction. But, they still require some.


I completely agree with your thoughts on running active at home - with the price of small basic DSP' s there is no need to waste time and effort calculating and constructing passive crossovers... every time you want to adjust your crossover point you must buy new components.. if you want poly caps you are not going to get them cheap... and i only like to use electrolytic caps when they are being used active at a couple octaves above my crossover point for protection... if youre using the caps for your crossover, you probably want low tolerance poly caps and those are spendy.

If you do not want to spend much there are many cheap solutions. In my experience there are less hurdles to overcome at home compared to in a vehicle, and as a result I need less EQ, I have less noise problems, etc in comparison to in my vehicle. Most folks can use a basic little minidsp, or even a Dayton and get exceptional results compared to passives once the DSP is properly dialed in.


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## cman

Elektra said:


> Yeah I am holding back the tears... I hope it’s a small issue that can be sorted locally or I’ll have to ship the amp to Germany
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is very odd, almost as if there was a short circuit or surge of current that damaged both at once. Your DSP sending signal to the two amplifiers is OK though? No smoke, or popped fuses or anything on the power cable?


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## Elektra

cman said:


> That is very odd, almost as if there was a short circuit or surge of current that damaged both at once. Your DSP sending signal to the two amplifiers is OK though? No smoke, or popped fuses or anything on the power cable?


No the DSP is fine... truth be told the MX4 has had a issue for a while with some static noise in the background - I did try to explain this to Audiotec Fischer but the wanted me to send the amp to them... I think whatever was causing the static noise probably eventually caused the amp to go into protection.

I haven’t a clue what happened to the ZED - it was used on the midbass drivers - I did find it strange that I was having a lot of resonance in the door and now that the MX2 is running everything it seems the resonance is 95% gone... 

It’s probably unrelated but I did find it strange - I figure the Brax is so controlled that the cone movement is controlled differently therefore the midbass isn’t playing in the same way...

I dunno hopefully I can get it sorted 


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## cman

Elektra said:


> No the DSP is fine... truth be told the MX4 has had a issue for a while with some static noise in the background - I did try to explain this to Audiotec Fischer but the wanted me to send the amp to them... I think whatever was causing the static noise probably eventually caused the amp to go into protection.
> 
> I haven’t a clue what happened to the ZED - it was used on the midbass drivers - I did find it strange that I was having a lot of resonance in the door and now that the MX2 is running everything it seems the resonance is 95% gone...
> 
> It’s probably unrelated but I did find it strange - I figure the Brax is so controlled that the cone movement is controlled differently therefore the midbass isn’t playing in the same way...
> 
> I dunno hopefully I can get it sorted
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Very odd indeed. Well hopefully it is a small simple fix and works out for you. Those Brax are such beautiful amps, I'm currently using two Mosconi pro 4/10's but i am really badly wanting to try out two Helix C Fours due to their similarities to the Brax Graphic amps.. Im thinking of stacking two of them due to their slim profile... 

Ever since I got my helix Ultra and opened it up I've been in amazement at the build quality of the high end Audiotec Fischer products... 

Im going through different amps and speakers right now testing before i move forward with redoing my build which will include fiberglassing my a pillars... The Brax ML3 may very well be one mid I try.. I really was considering trying these xcelsius everyone is raving about but I just cannot get over the fact that there is no spider.. I know its a silly concern since they seem to sound great according to peoples comments.. but Its just so different to me i do not know how i feel about it...


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## seafish

nm


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## Elektra

cman said:


> Very odd indeed. Well hopefully it is a small simple fix and works out for you. Those Brax are such beautiful amps, I'm currently using two Mosconi pro 4/10's but i am really badly wanting to try out two Helix C Fours due to their similarities to the Brax Graphic amps.. Im thinking of stacking two of them due to their slim profile...
> 
> Ever since I got my helix Ultra and opened it up I've been in amazement at the build quality of the high end Audiotec Fischer products...
> 
> Im going through different amps and speakers right now testing before i move forward with redoing my build which will include fiberglassing my a pillars... The Brax ML3 may very well be one mid I try.. I really was considering trying these xcelsius everyone is raving about but I just cannot get over the fact that there is no spider.. I know its a silly concern since they seem to sound great according to peoples comments.. but Its just so different to me i do not know how i feel about it...


The Brax is very nice I think mine had a issue from the start - I did send Julian Fischer an email with a video back in 2018 but he never responded so it wasn’t bad enough to get overly concerned about it as I thought it was something in my car causing the noise 

The noise just started getting a little louder and more frequent so it was starting to become noticeable enough to distract me.

The issue I have is that agents bring in high end products into the country but have no service center to actually service them...

Sending the product overseas is an expensive affair... warranty and support is in the eye of the beholder whether you paid full MSRP or dealer price... service and warranty is still the same...


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## Elektra

seafish said:


> Elektra, cman...I realize that yours is a troubling topic, but PLEASE dont clutter up Ge0's review thread !!!


Comments where ancillary to what Ge0 stated earlier... apologies if it got side tracked...


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## seafish

no worries


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## daloudin

Ge0 said:


> Not to mention that those crossover designs make the speaker sound optimal in an optimal listening environment with a microphone sitting close and pointe right at them. Optimal crossovers are only great for optimal conditions.
> 
> Place some hard plastic and glass around those multi-thousand dollar home monitors and see how the fare.
> 
> I believe active speakers are the way of the future. You can buy a plate amp with a couple 250 or 500 watt channels and full DSP in a package no larger than 3 iPhones stacked on top of each other. These amps have a lower THD and noise floor than anything you have ever heard. They are available now and coming to the main stream in the next few years.


Neumann KH80 Demo blew me away. Could not distinguish between them on ethernet and the reference JBLs on analog. It won't be long before that trickles down to home audio. 

But yes, for car audio going active is a no brainer with all the corrections needed. It was just a thought that maybe, somehow, the sibling midrange would create a greater divide between the two. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## SNCTMPL

Ge0 said:


> If you wanted a killer combo that could give you 85% of the performance of the Utopia M equivalent midrange and tweeter look into pairing a set of Xcelsus XXM325's with a set of ScanSpeak D3004 or D2004 silk dome tweeters. Absolutely awesome combo on the cheap. H3ll, you can get all 4 drivers for less than the cost of one Utopia M driver.


I just ordered a pair of the Scan 3004’s to pair with XXM325’s and Dyn mw172’s.
I also have a set of md102’s that I will try and see which I like better.
Geo I am digging the review, but it is costing me money 😁.


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## Petererc

thanks for all the time and effort doing the reviews. The closest I will get to listen to high end speakers is through through your ears, and others lol. I am on the fence for new tweeters and the D3004 are more than I want to spend as they will be by far my most expensive driver. Just want to make sure I am not going sideways. I need something to match up to a mw160gt around 2800khz off axis as mids and tweeters are mounted low down by the midbass. While the MD100 blends well and sounds good being crossed 2800khz 2nd order it is lacking in detail. Switched in the Alpine Pro knockoffs, 2800khz 4th order, and they have more detail than the md100 but can I do better . The D3004 is gonna blow my mind or be marginally better? thanks again


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## Ge0

*Review: Alpine SPX Pro (eBay) paired with Dynaudio E430*

This review is not necessarily complete. But, I had a direct question regarding this tweet so thought I would post what I have so far.

These are the eBay Alpine SPX Pro alleged knock-off’s. WOW, what a surprise for $30. If you can keep these somewhat on axis you are in for a treat. They have a smooth / flat frequency response 3KHz to 20KHz.

The SPX PRO is surprisingly excellent. It is one of those tweeters that disappear into music if tuned properly. Listen to the last 4:43 of the song Nardis for a good tweeter test. It actually sounded like a real drum set vs. listening to a drum set through speakers. They are not as sensitive as the Scan D3004’s and require more gain. However, they sound a lot like them with a little bit less detail and a smoother finish. By all means I would not hesitate to use this tweeter in my system

The SPX Pro’s sound a lot like the Scan D3004 during Dave Brubeck Time out album. They bring out lower tones in cymbal rides more than the scans bringing a slightly different but almost as detailed sound. They are not quite as sharp and airy on the percussion lines. Like the Dyn MD102 they dampen out cymbal strikes sooner. Although, not as much as the Dyn’s. They also go a tad harsh at higher listening volumes. Still an excellent sounding tweeter. If you take them for what they are, they are a tremendous value for what you pay. If you are on a tight budget I could not recommend them enough.


Tonality 3 of 4
Detail 3 of 4
Spaciousness 3 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 2.5 of 4
Dynamics 2.5 of 4


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## Huckleberry Sound

@Geo 

How do you keep your ears fresh?


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## Petererc

Awesome, I can agree with your review when swapping MD100 with SPX .I lost out on sensitivity but got a longer extension on the top end visible with RTA, nice flat response. On the Gojira Drum Solo track you can hear where the stick hits on the cymbal, whether on the edge or closer to the bell which was a noticeable improvement. The decay is too quick and was hoping that would be the benefit of the Scans. I had the SPX in the sail panels but could locate them being so far from the mid. The Dyn blended better in sail than the SPX ,so moved them around and settled lower closer to mid pointing up towards the dome light. Was afraid would lose stage height but that was not the case and they blend well. 
Thanks for the review, stopped me from pulling the trigger on the Scans for the moment,. I have had my eye on a 2" wideband that I believe is worth a try if ever back in stock


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## Ge0

Petererc said:


> Awesome, I can agree with your review when swapping MD100 with SPX .I lost out on sensitivity but got a longer extension on the top end visible with RTA, nice flat response. On the Gojira Drum Solo track you can hear where the stick hits on the cymbal, whether on the edge or closer to the bell which was a noticeable improvement. The decay is too quick and was hoping that would be the benefit of the Scans. I had the SPX in the sail panels but could locate them being so far from the mid. The Dyn blended better in sail than the SPX ,so moved them around and settled lower closer to mid pointing up towards the dome light. Was afraid would lose stage height but that was not the case and they blend well.
> Thanks for the review, stopped me from pulling the trigger on the Scans for the moment,. I have had my eye on a 2" wideband that I believe is worth a try if ever back in stock


Keep an eye out for a good deal on the Scan D3004 silk. They are a better tweeter than the SPX PRO. You will notice an improvement. But, I wouldn't go as far to say it will blow your socks off .


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## Petererc

thanks man, will do.


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## Patriot83

Ge0 said:


> Keep an eye out for a good deal on the Scan D3004 silk. They are a better tweeter than the SPX PRO. You will notice an improvement. But, I wouldn't go as far to say it will blow your socks off .


So which tweeters blow your socks off?


----------



## bertholomey

Playing with these 










This sounded pretty amazing on them. 











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## Clvol1255

bertholomey said:


> Playing with these
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This sounded pretty amazing on them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Audison?


----------



## bertholomey

Clvol1255 said:


> Audison?


Yes - should have mentioned that I’ve been using the version 1’s for many years, and a friend is letting me borrow the version 2’s. 


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## Sam Spade

You're hardly a novice @Ge0 😄

If i was in the US rather than the other side og the world I'd send my Brax ML1, ML3, ML6D, ML8 Subs and two C FOUR amps.

They are sitting in my home office at the moment. My wife thinks they aren't justified and i should be selling them........ I'm trying to work out how to get them installed without divorce.


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## Isaradia

I know this is slightly off topic, but it's tangent on many points. Couple of days ago I finished building some pillars for SA 1's in a C6, and played my usual slipknot drum solo, but tidal suggested gojira's equivalent, and im a big gojira fan, so i clicked. that's a great track. Also liked the percussion later on in Piece of Me ewan clark and the stella maris orchestra instrumental. ZZ top's la grange seems well recorded, as well as heaven beside you (three legged dog version) idk, im new to this.
I confirmed purchase of another set of SA1's, sending them shortly, but work has had me only sleeping when home
glad you liked the horns, they fit the install they're going into, but i dont like to sacrifice things..... anyone have any suggestions on HLCD's with the resolution to hang with anything at any price?


----------



## Ge0

Isaradia said:


> I know this is slightly off topic, but it's tangent on many points. Couple of days ago I finished building some pillars for SA 1's in a C6, and played my usual slipknot drum solo, but tidal suggested gojira's equivalent, and im a big gojira fan, so i clicked. that's a great track. Also liked the percussion later on in Piece of Me ewan clark and the stella maris orchestra instrumental. ZZ top's la grange seems well recorded, as well as heaven beside you (three legged dog version) idk, im new to this.
> I confirmed purchase of another set of SA1's, sending them shortly, but work has had me only sleeping when home
> glad you liked the horns, they fit the install they're going into, but i dont like to sacrifice things..... anyone have any suggestions on HLCD's with the resolution to hang with anything at any price?


Given your musical taste you better try your CompNeo HCLD's before you make further decisions. You're going to love them. The good thing is you will have the horn bodies. You are free to swap compression drivers in and out as you see fit. But, whatever Eric has cooking in the CompNeo is pretty good.


----------



## Ge0

Sam Spade said:


> You're hardly a novice @Ge0 😄
> 
> If i was in the US rather than the other side og the world I'd send my Brax ML1, ML3, ML6D, ML8 Subs and two C FOUR amps.
> 
> They are sitting in my home office at the moment. My wife thinks they aren't justified and i should be selling them........ I'm trying to work out how to get them installed without divorce.


Don't worry Sam. I have some Brax drivers on the way...


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## Isaradia

the comp neo's arent for me, theyre for a friends build, i havent even purchased a car for my build yet, need to buy a shop to do the build in first.... 740 wagon or impreza wagon? hmm.... any other suggestions on cool wagons to do a full build on? (engine, suspension, wheels, tires breaks, but most importantly, audio, just want to build a really cool daily driver audio theory test car, gunning for pssounds style install, wanna do 2 18's in true ib out the floor, thats why wagon)
i think eric has another project in the works with a different name, but but i could be mis-assuming his attachment to that project.... would explain why product development's been on hold....


----------



## Ge0

Isaradia said:


> the comp neo's arent for me, theyre for a friends build, i havent even purchased a car for my build yet, need to buy a shop to do the build in first.... 740 wagon or impreza wagon? hmm.... any other suggestions on cool wagons to do a full build on? (engine, suspension, wheels, tires breaks, but most importantly, audio, just want to build a really cool daily driver audio theory test car, gunning for pssounds style install, wanna do 2 18's in true ib out the floor, thats why wagon)
> i think eric has another project in the works with a different name, but but i could be mis-assuming his attachment to that project.... would explain why product development's been on hold....


I did drive a BMW M3 Wagon on the German Autobahn a few years ago. I hit 152mph on the A9 heading North from Liepzig to Berlin. I nearly crapped myself but it was fun


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## MythosDreamLab

Isaradia said:


> any other suggestions on cool wagons to do a full build on?


I live in So. Cal. and I'm older, so please don't be too offended by my comment:
_
There's no such thing as a COOL wagon..._

lol, sorry 👽


----------



## DaveG

MythosDreamLab said:


> I live in So. Cal. and I'm older, so please don't be too offended by my comment:
> 
> _There's no such thing as a COOL wagon..._
> 
> lol, sorry 👽


I disagree! How about 591hp/590tq and 0-60 in 3.5 seconds all wheel drive? 2021 Audi RS6 Avant!!! Bada$$!


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## Ge0

DaveG said:


> I disagree! How about 591hp/590tq and 0-60 in 3.5 seconds all wheel drive? 2021 Audi RS6 Avant!!! Bada$$!


Yep. Vagen's are what most of Europe uses as SUV's


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## swiffcliff

MythosDreamLab said:


> I live in So. Cal. and I'm older, so please don't be too offended by my comment:
> 
> _There's no such thing as a COOL wagon..._
> 
> lol, sorry 👽


I also disagree! How about a 1975 turbo brick with no stereo because you couldn't hear it anyway?


----------



## Ge0

You guys are totally bricking my thread with off topic ****. Please stop. But in the mean time enjoy this ******* wagon monstrosity...


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## MythosDreamLab

I am sorry, but you look up station wagon in the dictionary and no where is the word _cool_ used...lol


----------



## bbfoto

Ge0,

Random question, but are you using any type of polyfill, wool, or other acoustical "stuffing" in your wedge enclosures for the mids?


----------



## Ge0

bbfoto said:


> Ge0,
> 
> Random question, but are you using any type of polyfill, wool, or other acoustical "stuffing" in your wedge enclosures for the mids?


B. I am using polyfill even though its now doing anything. The internal volume of the enclosure is close to 5 liters. The Fc for the midrange(s) in this enclosure is around 200Hz. However, I am high passing them at 400Hz. So, the air volume inside the box does not interact with the midrange(s) enough to alter their frequency response.


----------



## Stycker

This has been a pleasant read. Ge0, you are far from a novice. My only experience with high end drivers are the Audio Frog GB series. They stay composed at all listening levels, they are easy to EQ, they blend well with one another. Have you ever used these and if so, how would they compare to these high end drivers you are testing? I feel like my tweeter could use some improvement in cymbal decay. My tweeters require the least amount of EQ of all my speakers.


----------



## Ge0

Stycker said:


> This has been a pleasant read. Ge0, you are far from a novice. My only experience with high end drivers are the Audio Frog GB series. They stay composed at all listening levels, they are easy to EQ, they blend well with one another. Have you ever used these and if so, how would they compare to these high end drivers you are testing? I feel like my tweeter could use some improvement in cymbal decay. My tweeters require the least amount of EQ of all my speakers.


Sorry, never listened to Frog Speakers.


----------



## bbfoto

Ge0 said:


> B. I am using polyfill even though its now doing anything. The internal volume of the enclosure is close to 5 liters. The Fc for the midrange(s) in this enclosure is around 200Hz. However, I am high passing them at 400Hz. So, the air volume inside the box does not interact with the midrange(s) enough to alter their frequency response.


Thank you. Understood regarding the size of the enclosure, Fc, and your selected HP XO for the drivers. 

In some of my own listening tests, using wool, polyfill, or similar types of acoustic stuffing material in midrange enclosures, or behind the driver in an IB alignment with close rearward boundary surfaces, it has seemed to improve overall midrange "clarity" in some instances.

I attribute this to the potential dispersion/diffraction of the driver's out-of-phase rear-wave energy bouncing back into the rear surface of the driver's cone, potentially creating some audible IMD or "comb filtering", etc.

I'd really love to A/B/X test this with measurements, as well as close-mic'd A/B recordings.

One of my best demo tracks to reveal this is the Track #4 "Percussion Ensemble" from the Stockfisch Records "AYA" test disc, which _Bertholomey_ also posted a screen shot of a page or two back in his post regarding his listening test of the 3" Audison Thesis TH Voce 3.0 II midrange drivers.

That particular track is excellent in many regards. It reveals Clarity/Micro-Detail/Resolution differences, as well as Soundstage Focus, Instrument Separation, Depth, and Width.

Perhaps it's just psychoacoustics tricking me, but I honestly believe that there can be something to this, depending on the particular driver, and the immediate "enclosure" environment it is mounted in.


----------



## Ge0

bbfoto said:


> In some of my own listening tests, using wool, polyfill, or similar types of acoustic stuffing material in midrange enclosures, or behind the driver in an IB alignment with close rearward boundary surfaces, it has seemed to improve overall midrange "clarity" in some instances.
> 
> I attribute this to the potential dispersion/diffraction of the driver's out-of-phase rear-wave energy bouncing back into the rear surface of the driver's cone, potentially creating some audible IMD or "comb filtering", etc.


To be honest that was exactly the effect I was hoping for. To dampen internal resonances and to slow internal air velocity down. However, I want to switch it up a little. I would like to try a 1" layer of wool batting adhered to the interior speaker walls then loosely fill the rest with polyfill. I think the variations in material density might help too.


----------



## Clvol1255

I’ve noticed the TBMs sound better and better daily. You noticing the same?


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

The information exchanged is amazing!


----------



## Ge0

Clvol1255 said:


> I’ve noticed the TBMs sound better and better daily. You noticing the same?


I did notice that both the TBM's and TBXP's sounded better once broken in for a week or so. My TBXP review needs to be updated.


----------



## preston

My Bliesma's definitely opened up over the course of a week, and I'm not the most subtle of listeners, but it clearly went from excellent to amazing the more I listened.


----------



## MythosDreamLab

Ge0 said:


> I did notice that both the TBM's and TBXP's sounded better once broken in for a week or so. My TBXP review needs to be updated.


I'm extremely happy with my front TBXP tweets, I think they are broken in now as well, the clarity is amazing, so much so that I don't plan on adding mid-range drivers...

I had these mounted in the rear C-Pillars, they fit nearly perfect in the existing mid-range (or whatever the hell Honda put there) and they are sounding good as well but more as fill... Still need to do a bit more DSP fine tuning, but I'm loving it...!


----------



## MythosDreamLab

bertholomey said:


> Playing with these
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This sounded pretty amazing on them.


Sax or Voce?? (I'm confused...lol)


----------



## Ge0

MythosDreamLab said:


> I'm extremely happy with my front TBXP tweets, I think they are broken in now as well, the clarity is amazing, so much so that I don't plan on adding mid-range drivers...
> 
> I had these mounted in the rear C-Pillars, they fit nearly perfect in the existing mid-range (or whatever the hell Honda put there) and they are sounding good as well but more as fill... Still need to do a bit more DSP fine tuning, but I'm loving it...!
> 
> View attachment 295232


Probably the most expensive 2 channel rear fill I have ever seen


----------



## Clvol1255

I’m about to add rear fill myself by moving the WXP mid bass 6.5” to the back and put the WM8” in my fronts which is going to make me up my dsp to the helix Ultra too. Damn this is becoming a very expensive hobby lol


----------



## MythosDreamLab

Clvol1255 said:


> I’m about to add rear fill myself by moving the WXP mid bass 6.5” to the back and put the WM8” in my fronts which is going to make me up my dsp to the helix Ultra too. Damn this is becoming a very expensive hobby lol


That's the beauty of it, you are gonna have one sweet sounding system, I'm sure. 

BTW: I did the same thing, I bought a new pair of the 6.5 Utopia woofers (from a 165W-XP set) and put those in my rear doors. So it's a simple system overall; (4) 6.5 Utopia woofers, (2) Utopia TBXP Tweeters and (2) Thesis 1.5 Violino Tweeters, 8 speakers powered by an 8-channel DSP Amp, and another Sub Amp powering the Sub...!


----------



## Clvol1255

Yep I can either get the WM6.5 for $1200 shipped or the WM8s for $1600 shipped so I thought why the hell not just get all the mid bass possible with the utopia m 8. I’ve read nothing but great things about those 8s

I’m sure you’ve got a very nice sounding ride too btw


----------



## Ge0

Clvol1255 said:


> I’m about to add rear fill myself by moving the WXP mid bass 6.5” to the back and put the WM8” in my fronts which is going to make me up my dsp to the helix Ultra too. Damn this is becoming a very expensive hobby lol


I can help offset some of that cost. Sell me your wm8's


----------



## Clvol1255

If I happen to get cold feet on modding my doors to fit them you may be in luck lol don’t hold your breath though. Also quit trying to convince yourself the TBXP tweeters are that close to the TBMs.... hahahaha let’s just be real here


----------



## Ge0

Clvol1255 said:


> If I happen to get cold feet on modding my doors to fit them you may be in luck lol don’t hold your breath though


OOOOooooooh. Modding your doors is never a good thing...


----------



## MythosDreamLab

Clvol1255 said:


> I thought why the hell not just get all the mid bass possible with the utopia m 8. I’ve read nothing but great things about those 8s


That's what the guy I bought the 6.5 Utopia (165W-XP) is going with and why he never used them... Got them new for $650...


----------



## MythosDreamLab

Clvol1255 said:


> Also quit trying to convince yourself the TBXP tweeters are that close to the TBMs.... hahahaha let’s just be real here


Most people don't have the luxury nor expertise that Geo has to test various components and thus their stereo buying is not too unlike when you buy a TV.

You go to Best Buy (or wherever) and there are dozens of TV's in various price ranges, in varying quality levels and you pick ONE, when you get it home, there is no more comparing - it is the best one in your home. (I bought a L&G 65" OLED TV...)

Anyway, if one is happy with how their tweeters sound, then they is no reason to keep looking, comparing and changing, unless of course you like that kind of stuff...(lol)

My TBXP's are either the best or second best tweeters in my vehicle and I'm fine with that...

Cheers!


----------



## Clvol1255

MythosDreamLab said:


> Most people don't have the luxury nor expertise that Geo has to test various components and thus their stereo buying is not too unlike when you buy a TV.
> 
> You go to Best Buy (or wherever) and there are dozens of TV's in various price ranges, in varying quality levels and you pick ONE, when you get it home, there is no more comparing - it is the best one in your home. (I bought a L&G 65" OLED TV...)
> 
> Anyway, if one is happy with how their tweeters sound, then they is no reason to keep looking, comparing and changing, unless of course you like that kind of stuff...(lol)
> 
> My TBXP's are either the best or second best tweeters in my vehicle and I'm find with that...
> 
> Cheers!


No doubt about it and not questioning his expertise but I feel like he’s trying to convince himself in this case... maybe? Idk was more less joking with him but... my story is this
I owned and ran very happily the TBXPs in my truck for a couple of months and they opened up and got better daily after a couple of weeks then they just hit a wall. Still sounded better than anything I’d ever heard. I then installed the WM 3.5( bc or geo recommendation may I add) and removed my hertz Mille legends and was blown away... couldn’t believe how much better the WM was. This led me to believe okay well if they’re this good then the tweeters have something to them too and can get even better. For the first few days I was honestly kind of like yeah I mean they sound a little better maybe in some areas but damnit they’re really laid back and too smooth compared to the TBXPs. After about a week the TBMs just opened the F up and they’ve gotten better and better sounding with more clarity and details than I’ve ever heard. They have yet to hit that wall as of now. I’ve noticed not even paying attention playing them about 3/5 volume that holy **** what was that sound I’ve never heard before in this song. Idk hard to explain. Yes the TBXP are absolutely really good tweeters. 2nd best I’ve heard to date. Like an in between or mixture of K2 with morel type smoothness about them. The TBXP MAY even be as dynamic as the TBMs just not as detailed imo


----------



## Mullings

Ge0 said:


> Probably the most expensive 2 channel rear fill I have ever seen


If you didn’t say 2 channel I wouldn’t post picks of possible the most expensive rear fill I’ve ever seen


----------



## daloudin

MythosDreamLab said:


> Most people don't have the luxury nor expertise that Geo has to test various components and thus their stereo buying is not too unlike when you buy a TV.
> 
> You go to Best Buy (or wherever) and there are dozens of TV's in various price ranges, in varying quality levels and you pick ONE, when you get it home, there is no more comparing - it is the best one in your home. (I bought a L&G 65" OLED TV...)
> 
> Anyway, if one is happy with how their tweeters sound, then they is no reason to keep looking, comparing and changing, unless of course you like that kind of stuff...(lol)
> 
> My TBXP's are either the best or second best tweeters in my vehicle and I'm fine with that...
> 
> Cheers!


L&G 🤣 me 2 - all my screens are OLED now ... TV, Cell, Laptop - now if I can just get a HU with one!


----------



## jtrosky

I also have an LG 65" OLED and to be perfectly honest, I won't be buying another. I actually liked my previous 55" Visio LCD better! Sure, the OLED has VERY black "blacks", but I'm not a fan of the motion - it's not nearly as smooth as my previous Vizio (which is now in the bedroom). To me, the OLED was just NOT worth the high cost. I think I paid like $2500 for a 65" OLED TV (a few years ago). I could have had 4 Vizios for that price!


----------



## Ge0

Mullings said:


> If you didn’t say 2 channel I wouldn’t post picks of possible the most expensive rear fill I’ve ever seen


I chose my words cautiously for a reason Kev


----------



## Ge0

jtrosky said:


> I also have an LG 65" OLED and to be perfectly honest, I won't be buying another. I actually liked my previous 55" Visio LCD better! Sure, the OLED has VERY black "blacks", but I'm not a fan of the motion - it's not nearly as smooth as my previous Vizio (which is now in the bedroom). To me, the OLED was just NOT worth the high cost. I think I paid like $2500 for a 65" OLED TV (a few years ago). I could have had 4 Vizios for that price!


You need to go into the menu and lower the frame rate. It's probably set super high and interpolating frames. Also, the color may be jacked up.


----------



## Mullings

Ge0 said:


> I chose my words cautiously for a reason Kev


I just realized that spell check messed up what I wrote, we have a 3way rear fill here but it might be top secret so I’ll wait till the project is done


----------



## daloudin

jtrosky said:


> I also have an LG 65" OLED and to be perfectly honest, I won't be buying another. I actually liked my previous 55" Visio LCD better! Sure, the OLED has VERY black "blacks", but I'm not a fan of the motion - it's not nearly as smooth as my previous Vizio (which is now in the bedroom). To me, the OLED was just NOT worth the high cost. I think I paid like $2500 for a 65" OLED TV (a few years ago). I could have had 4 Vizios for that price!


There's a whole forum dedicated to the settings for LG OLED sets and each generation is a little different - but they all start the same way - go in and turn OFF all motion processing and digital wizardry for anything to do with motion. Not sure which version you have but start here: LG OLED Trumotion thread


----------



## jtrosky

Trust me - I've been through all of that (I've had it for years). Where I'm different is that I actually _like_ the "soap opera effect" - and my LG OLED B6 TV can't do it. I just prefer the smoother motion. Maybe I'm just weird that way, but I'd rather have the nice smooth motion than the choppy motion I get with my OLED. Mine is a first-gen OLED (I think it's first-gen - if not, it's close). It doesn't have any way to make the motion smoother.

Maybe I'm just not a "videophile", but I'll never pay that much for a TV again. I could have had an 80"+ LCD/LED TV for the price - maybe even two of them! 

Same with the whole 4k thing. To me, that is the biggest scam there is. I even bought an 4k Blueray player and I really can't tell the difference at the distances I watch TV from. I'd be fine with a 1080p LCD.


----------



## daloudin

jtrosky said:


> Trust me - I've been through all of that (I've had it for years). Where I'm different is that I actually _like_ the "soap opera effect" - and my LG OLED B6 TV can't do it. I just prefer the smoother motion. Maybe I'm just weird that way, but I'd rather have the nice smooth motion than the choppy motion I get with my OLED. Mine is a first-gen OLED (I think it's first-gen - if not, it's close). It doesn't have any way to make the motion smoother.
> 
> Maybe I'm just not a "videophile", but I'll never pay that much for a TV again. I could have had an 80"+ LCD/LED TV for the price - maybe even two of them!
> 
> Same with the whole 4k thing. To me, that is the biggest scam there is. I even bought an 4k Blueray player and I really can't tell the difference at the distances I watch TV from. I'd be fine with a 1080p LCD.


B6 is 2nd Gen but yeah, you're kinda stuck with the herky jerky stuff - however - have you tried an antenna for uncompressed 4K, it's better but only if you have broadcasters in your area.


----------



## SloVic

Ge0 said:


> The downside is they get a little pissy at high volumes. So, it you're one of those guys who does not listen to music at 110dB you should be fine.


You said this about the XXM325. Does this factor in power distribution in the tune and music its self?

For instance planning on my subs being able hit ~120db. Will have a rising response of ~12db from 200-30hz and a HP around 300-400hz on the mids. So they would only (lol) need to hit 108db to keep up but I think with the way power is distributed in music it would be another 15-25dbs below that point that they'd actually play at.

Also did you get into contact with ErinH about testing these? Saw you said further back you had messaged him and were waiting on a reply before testing them.


----------



## Ge0

SloVic said:


> You said this about the XXM325. Does this factor in power distribution in the tune and music its self?
> 
> For instance planning on my subs being able hit ~120db. Will have a rising response of ~12db from 200-30hz and a HP around 300-400hz on the mids. So they would only (lol) need to hit 108db to keep up but I think with the way power is distributed in music it would be another 15-25dbs below that point that they'd actually play at.


Mids playing at 110dB. Who the h3ll knows what your bass will hit


----------



## SloVic

That's what I thought, just wasn't sure if you ment for just the midrange or the whole system. 

I sometimes see these people who swear your system needs to be able to reach peak SPL throught it's entire bandwidth. Seams to be untrue though from what little I know on the subject.


----------



## bbfoto

SloVic said:


> That's what I thought, just wasn't sure if you meant for just the midrange or the whole system.
> 
> I sometimes see these people who swear your system needs to be able to reach peak SPL throughout it's entire bandwidth. Seams to be untrue though from what little I know on the subject.


The key is that you want to maintain plenty of Dynamic Headroom...i.e. you need your drivers to not launch their cones off from the voice coil/spider and surrounds like a projectile when your music hits dynamic transient peaks. 

My litmus test for a system's Dynamic Capability are the real life large Bronze Field Cannons that fire during the Tchaikovsky & Beethoven 1812 Overtures in the following Mercury Living Presence recording:









Tchaikovsky - Beethoven - Minneapolis Symphony Orchestra - University Of Minnesota Brass Band - Antal Dorati - London Symphony Orchestra - Deems Taylor - 1812 Festival Overture, Op. 49 - Capriccio Italien - Wellington's Victory


View credits, reviews, tracks and shop for the 1995 CD release of "1812 Festival Overture, Op. 49 - Capriccio Italien - Wellington's Victory" on Discogs.




www.discogs.com














*BE CAREFUL!!!* No Joke, this recording can easily BLOW or damage your drivers, even in a very high quality system! 

If any of your drivers don't self-destruct when playing this, you've done good, LOL.


----------



## Clvol1255

So how do you play this track? Nm found it on Amazon hd


----------



## bbfoto

Clvol1255 said:


> So how do you play this track? Nm found it on Amazon hd


I can't confirm this, but you may want to pick up the original CD, because I'm willing to bet that this recording was dynamically limited and compressed when it was mastered for the streaming service.

Each streaming service has specific mastering guidelines before tracks or albums are accepted and made available on that streaming platform.

One such restriction is that they all must be "normalized", IOW, all tracks and masters are adjusted so that they all play at a relative equal volume from track to track/album to album, etc.

I'm sure that the engineers knew that this track could potentially damage many speaker systems when played by unsuspecting music lovers on a streaming platform (or otherwise), and would have dynamically limited it before making it available to stream.


----------



## Ge0

Sorry for my delay in content folks. I'm in the automotive electronics business. There is a world wide semiconductor shortage going on. I've been working 16 hour days trying to avoid closing GM, Ford, Hyundai, Honda, BMW, Audi, VW, and Daimler plants. Each one of these plant closures costs nearly $1M a day. Of course the customers try to push that cost back on us, the suppliers. I don't have that type of money to spend. So I scramble to find solutions. Me and 100's of other people on my team.


----------



## Niebur3

No worries. We appreciate all you are doing. Now for fun, you ought to try those scan gold 6.5” you bought as midrange only in your test. (We know it was you....calling them ugly just helped drive the price down.....lol)


----------



## MythosDreamLab

Ge0 said:


> Sorry for my delay in content folks. I'm in the automotive electronics business. There is a world wide semiconductor shortage going on. I've been working 16 hour days trying to avoid closing GM, Ford, Hyundai, Honda, BMW, Audi, VW, and Daimler plants. Each one of these plant closures costs nearly $1M a day. Of course the customers try to push that cost back on us, the suppliers. I don't have that type of money to spend. So I scramble to find solutions. Me and 100's of other people on my team.


I know what you mean, for 12 years I worked for a Tier 1 supplier to Chrysler, Ford and Dana. They can be very demanding to suppliers...!


----------



## THX0849

Ge0 said:


> Sorry for my delay in content folks. I'm in the automotive electronics business. There is a world wide semiconductor shortage going on. I've been working 16 hour days trying to avoid closing GM, Ford, Hyundai, Honda, BMW, Audi, VW, and Daimler plants. Each one of these plant closures costs nearly $1M a day. Of course the customers try to push that cost back on us, the suppliers. I don't have that type of money to spend. So I scramble to find solutions. Me and 100's of other people on my team.


 Being in service at a local Ford dealership I'm painfully aware of the delays and shortages going on. It's been horrible on all fronts, parts delays have been insane. I feel for your position man, it ain't easy, you must be getting it from all sides. Hope it can ease up for you (and everyone else) soon. Best of luck!

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

THX0849 said:


> Being in service at a local Ford dealership I'm painfully aware of the delays and shortages going on. It's been horrible on all fronts, parts delays have been insane. I feel for your position man, it ain't easy, you must be getting it from all sides. Hope it can ease up for you (and everyone else) soon. Best of luck!
> 
> Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


It's like having a shinny metal dildo full of razor spikes rammed up your as_.... Yep, it sucks.


----------



## Ge0

Niebur3 said:


> No worries. We appreciate all you are doing. Now for fun, you ought to try those scan gold 6.5” you bought as midrange only in your test. (We know it was you....calling them ugly just helped drive the price down.....lol)


LOL!!! Thx J...


----------



## Ge0

MythosDreamLab said:


> I know what you mean, for 12 years I worked for a Tier 1 supplier to Chrysler, Ford and Dana. They can be very demanding to suppliers...!


They suck the life out of you. But for some reason I have been doing this for 25+ years...


----------



## Ge0

*Review: Focal Utopia M TBM Beryllium dome tweeter paired with 3.5wm midrange*

I am not going to write a full report on TBM performance like I did the TBXP and Piccolo. Rather, this review will focus on the differences I found between the three devices.

The Focal TBM is almost a direct split between the Focal TBXP and Morel Supremo Piccolo. As a matter of fact I had a hard time determining the difference between the TBM and Piccolo until I went searching for alternate music. I explored 6 years of AVA, EMMA, and IASCA competition discs. Finally I found the tie breaker lies specifically in depth of field and dynamics.

The TBXP is an excellent tweeter in its own right. What it really boils down to is your personal preference. The TBXP is similar in tonality to both the TBM and Piccolo. However, it has a different presentation that makes it seem more forward. It has almost no depth of field but can cast a wider soundstage. It is also the most dynamic of the bunch. When a drummer whacks his snare or an orchestra suddenly crescendo’s this tweeter will really make this stand out. The TBXP is slightly less detailed than the other two options. When I say slightly I mean slightly. It took me several tracks to make this determination. The only fault I could find with the TBXP is that it becomes a little harsh sometime at high volume. With that said, I HIGHLY recommend the TBXP for the price. It is close to the price of the Piccolo but sits at somewhat opposite extremes while still maintaining high performance.

To some the TBM may be the perfect trade off. It loses some of the dynamic impact and stage width of the TBXP in exchange for depth of field. In many tracks I auditioned I could sense not only a frontal sound stage, but a second layer behind that when appropriate. It is also slightly more detailed (and I mean slightly). The TBM is as smooth and polished as the Piccolo. I could not get it to sound harsh even at volumes beyond my listening comfort. To me the TBM sounds identical to the Piccolo in many aspects with a few exceptions. It has more dynamic impact than the Piccolo. The Piccolo can become a little “soft” with high energy impact such as drum whacks, bass slaps, and horn solos. The TBM can project better stage width than the Piccolo. However, the TBM can’t touch the Piccolo when it comes to depth of field. With that said, I have a hard time recommending the TBM unless you have disposable income and don't care. The TBXP and Piccolo are very comparable solutions for 1/2 the cost. I don't feel the trade-offs are worth the extra expense.

The Piccolo is a device that just disappears and blends into the sound field. You never notice it’s there because nothing stands out. It projects a sound field depth many layers deep. It excels on EMMA test tracks that explore room boundaries. They can locate instruments on recordings that project many layers of musicians. Or, in other words they can create a 3 dimensional sound field. In comparison, the TBM offers some soundstage depth but nowhere near as detailed as the Piccolo. On the flip side the TBM can replicate dynamic passages the Piccolo can’t. The Piccolo seems to “Peter out” whereas the TBM just nails it.

For those who complain the TBXP or TBM’s sound harsh. Well, it’s all in the tuning. If you take care to tune them flat, or with a slight controlled roll off, they are as smooth and detailed as anything else. If you leave any peaks in response they will sound harsh and can bite










*Focal TBM Beryllium dome tweeter rating*

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 4 of 4
Spaciousness / Depth 3.5 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 4 of 4
Dynamics 3.5 of 4


----------



## ocuriel

Terrific review Geo. 👏👏👏


----------



## Ge0

Oh [email protected] A look at what's coming up...


----------



## DaveG

I know you mentioned these at one time @Ge0 ... did you ever pull the trigger?


----------



## Clvol1255

Ge0 said:


> *Review: Focal Utopia M TBM Beryllium dome tweeter paired with 3.5wm midrange*
> 
> I am not going to write a full report on TBM performance like I did the TBXP and Piccolo. Rather, this review will focus on the differences I found between the three devices.
> 
> The Focal TBM is almost a direct split between the Focal TBXP and Morel Supremo Piccolo. As a matter of fact I had a hard time determining the difference between the TBM and Piccolo until I went searching for alternate music. I explored 6 years of AVA, EMMA, and IASCA competition discs. Finally I found the tie breaker lies specifically in depth of field and dynamics.
> 
> The TBXP is an excellent tweeter in its own right. What it really boils down to is your personal preference. The TBXP is similar in tonality to both the TBM and Piccolo. However, it has a different presentation that makes it seem more forward. It has almost no depth of field but can cast a wider soundstage. It is also the most dynamic of the bunch. When a drummer whacks his snare or an orchestra suddenly crescendo’s this tweeter will really make this stand out. The TBXP is slightly less detailed than the other two options. When I say slightly I mean slightly. It took me several tracks to make this determination. The only fault I could find with the TBXP is that it becomes a little harsh sometime at high volume. With that said, I HIGHLY recommend the TBXP for the price. It is close to the price of the Piccolo but sits at somewhat opposite extremes while still maintaining high performance.
> 
> To some the TBM may be the perfect trade off. It loses some of the dynamic impact and stage width of the TBXP in exchange for depth of field. In many tracks I auditioned I could sense not only a frontal sound stage, but a second layer behind that when appropriate. It is also slightly more detailed (and I mean slightly). The TBM is as smooth and polished as the Piccolo. I could not get it to sound harsh even at volumes beyond my listening comfort. To me the TBM sounds identical to the Piccolo in many aspects with a few exceptions. It has more dynamic impact than the Piccolo. The Piccolo can become a little “soft” with high energy impact such as drum whacks, bass slaps, and horn solos. The TBM can project better stage width than the Piccolo. However, the TBM can’t touch the Piccolo when it comes to depth of field. With that said, I have a hard time recommending the TBM unless you have disposable income and don't care. The TBXP and Piccolo are very comparable solutions for 1/2 the cost. I don't feel the trade-offs are worth the extra expense.
> 
> The Piccolo is a device that just disappears and blends into the sound field. You never notice it’s there because nothing stands out. It projects a sound field depth many layers deep. It excels on EMMA test tracks that explore room boundaries. They can locate instruments on recordings that project many layers of musicians. Or, in other words they can create a 3 dimensional sound field. In comparison, the TBM offers some soundstage depth but nowhere near as detailed as the Piccolo. On the flip side the TBM can replicate dynamic passages the Piccolo can’t. The Piccolo seems to “Peter out” whereas the TBM just nails it.
> 
> For those who complain the TBXP or TBM’s sound harsh. Well, it’s all in the tuning. If you take care to tune them flat, or with a slight controlled roll off, they are as smooth and detailed as anything else. If you leave any peaks in response they will sound harsh and can bite
> 
> View attachment 296484
> 
> 
> *Focal TBM Beryllium dome tweeter rating*
> 
> Tonality 4 of 4
> Detail 4 of 4
> Spaciousness / Depth 3.5 of 4
> Harshness (lack of) 4 of 4
> Dynamics 3.5 of 4


Nice review but I still think you’re selling the TBM short. I’ll buy some picallos and try them out but TBXP more dynamic than TBM? SMH I’m not hearing it. What dsp and amp are you using?


----------



## Ge0

DaveG said:


> I know you mentioned these at one time @Ge0 ... did you ever pull the trigger?
> View attachment 296501
> View attachment 296502


No, I didn't pull the trigger. I figured I already had enough tweeters. These weren't cheap enough just to buy for sh!ts n giggles.


----------



## DaveG

Ge0 said:


> No, I didn't pull the trigger. I figured I already had enough tweeters. These weren't cheap enough just to buy for sh!ts n giggles.


No sh!t! That’s probably the most accurate thing I’ll read today!!! You win the internet!!! Lol


----------



## Ge0

Clvol1255 said:


> Nice review but I still think you’re selling the TBM short. I’ll buy some picallos and try them out but TBXP more dynamic than TBM? SMH I’m not hearing it. What dsp and amp are you using?


You need to try them side by side on controlled test tracks. The TBXP's are more forward whereas the TBM's are more balanced. Remember, like I said the differences are small but they do exist.


----------



## DaveG

I would love a random “blind” a/b/c comparison with multiple listeners... that would be interesting.


----------



## preston

You're planning to include the Dynaudio 430 in your reviews yes ? 

Too bad the Bliesma tweeter is not in the mix but I know you have to draw the line somewhere. At $600 retail it would (should ?) provide a good alternative to the more expensive Morel and Focal options.


----------



## Ge0

preston said:


> You're planning to include the Dynaudio 430 in your reviews yes ?
> 
> Too bad the Bliesma tweeter is not in the mix but I know you have to draw the line somewhere. At $600 retail it would (should ?) provide a good alternative to the more expensive Morel and Focal options.


Yes on the Dynaudio E430. No on the Belisma's. That is unless someone sends me a set of Belisma's


----------



## Clvol1255

I think you’ve went above and beyond selecting different drivers for this experiment on your own dime for sure and again, I appreciate it


----------



## Ge0

DaveG said:


> I know you mentioned these at one time @Ge0 ... did you ever pull the trigger?
> View attachment 296501
> View attachment 296502


Where did you buy these? Curious because they also have a QC Pass sticker. Both sets of midranges I bought locally did not. And in return the build quality is @ss...

I second my opinion that the US distributor is selling B stock...


----------



## SNCTMPL

Ge0 said:


> Where did you buy these? Curious because they also have a QC Pass sticker. Both sets of midranges I bought locally did not. And in return the build quality is @ss...
> 
> I second my opinion that the US distributor is selling B stock...


Well you made me get out of bed and run out to my shop to look, it’s kind of cold out. My midrange do not have the QC sticker, I ordered them from Austria. After the issues you had I went over mine pretty carefully when I got them and they are clean, but I haven’t listened to them yet.


----------



## DaveG

SNCTMPL said:


> Well you made me get out of bed and run out to my shop to look, it’s kind of cold out. My midrange do not have the QC sticker, I ordered them from Austria. After the issues you had I went over mine pretty carefully when I got them and they are clean, but I haven’t listened to them yet.


Same^


----------



## Ge0

DaveG said:


> Same^


OK. So even placing a Quality control label on the box is inconsistent with these drivers. I hope things improve. My first set was just slapped together. I returned them because one driver made a buzzing sound. I haven't powered up my 2nd set yet. But, they were built a little sloppy too.


----------



## Clvol1255

Ge0 said:


> OK. So even placing a Quality control label on the box is inconsistent with these drivers. I hope things improve. My first set was just slapped together. I returned them because one driver made a buzzing sound. I haven't powered up my 2nd set yet. But, they were built a little sloppy too.


Which are you speaking of? Xcelsius?


----------



## Isaradia

yes


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

Ge0 said:


> I've been adding in some of the tracks you provided in substitute for tracks in my list I was hardly using.
> 
> I could build more baffles that place drivers closer. My problem is I wanted to fit the widest selection of drivers as possible on the same baffles. Some have larger mounting flanges than others. I could probably scoot them 1/2" closer but not much more.
> 
> I also tried this experiment per Seafish's suggestion:
> View attachment 294494
> 
> 
> The acoustic felt was supposed to help lessen the affects of baffle edge diffraction. It didn't. It created some nasty response anomalies.


Question based on this test of the felt, did you happen to try it cut with a circular hole just big enough for the tweeter? Im curious to if those response anomalies were due to the felt itself or if it was due to adding an extra lip for the sound to diffract off of since it wasnt butted right up against the housing.


----------



## Ge0

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Question based on this test of the felt, did you happen to try it cut with a circular hole just big enough for the tweeter? Im curious to if those response anomalies were due to the felt itself or if it was due to adding an extra lip for the sound to diffract off of since it wasnt butted right up against the housing.


I have plenty of felt left to try it. I'll let you know. I read an article online that lead me to try the experiment I did.

You know as well as I that everything you read online must be true


----------



## seafish

Not that I have taken measurements, but below is how I did the felt on the small two ways I built for my test bench. This totally elimiinated any baffle step between the tweet and mid. They sound very good. Though part of that is probably choice of driver *Diatone tweet with Sinfoni mid) and also the fully CLD lined enclosure. Each of those speakers is barely 4" x 8" x 4" and easily weigh 7# each. 😯


----------



## Elektra

Are you testing the tweeters open back or in a enclosure? 

I have been testing myself and the TBM’s sound different with the closed back vs open back...

Although mine where IB so no enclosure - not sure if the closed or open back matters in a enclosure scenario...

I found when I closed the back the tweeters sounded like it had more body lost it’s top end bite sounded a little more natural...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

Elektra said:


> Are you testing the tweeters open back or in a enclosure?
> 
> I have been testing myself and the TBM’s sound different with the closed back vs open back...
> 
> Although mine where IB so no enclosure - not sure if the closed or open back matters in a enclosure scenario...
> 
> I found when I closed the back the tweeters sounded like it had more body lost it’s top end bite sounded a little more natural...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm currently running the TBM's open back. I've also run them closed back. I was mainly listening for changes in staging and harshness at the time. I did notice a slight change in tonality but did not really characterize this. Perhaps I will go back a take a closer look.

I'm crossing them over at 3,500Hz. I wouldn't expect to hear a change in tonality open vs. closed back up that high given their response curve(s).









That's foam tape wrapped around the TBM to hold them in my baffle.


----------



## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> I'm currently running the TBM's open back. I've also run them closed back. I was mainly listening for changes in staging and harshness at the time. I did notice a slight change in tonality but did not really characterize this. Perhaps I will go back a take a closer look.
> 
> I'm crossing them over at 3,500Hz. I wouldn't expect to hear a change in tonality open vs. closed back up that high given their response curve(s).


It’s weird as I thought I would just try it as it’s literally a few seconds to try it and as I was closing the backs I did notice an immediate change even from behind the speaker as I was doing it...

I thought that was interesting... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

Elektra said:


> It’s weird as I thought I would just try it as it’s literally a few seconds to try it and as I was closing the backs I did notice an immediate change even from behind the speaker as I was doing it...
> 
> I thought that was interesting...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can see were you would hear that if crossing them lower. Say, 2000Hz to 2500Hz. They get a pretty solid bump in response at these frequencies with the backs on. I was hoping to give them a more "airy" holographic sound by removing the back plastic piece and letting them breath a little. Too bad there are zero instructions in regards to this matter.

Also, you may hear more of a difference if using shallow crossovers. I'm using 24dB/octave. Low frequency response rolls off rather quickly.


----------



## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> I can see were you would hear that if crossing them lower. Say, 2000Hz to 2500Hz. They get a pretty solid bump in response at these frequencies with the backs on. I was hoping to give them a more "airy" holographic sound by removing the back plastic piece and letting them breath a little. Too bad there are zero instructions in regards to this matter


Yeah from what I understand it’s based on custom install so you can try different things to suite your needs in the install... but I was surprised at the change with the backs on and I crossed mine at 3000hz


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

Elektra said:


> Yeah from what I understand it’s based on custom install so you can try different things to suite your needs in the install... but I was surprised at the change with the backs on and I crossed mine at 3000hz
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Like I said, it's also dependent on crossover slopes.


----------



## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> Like I said, it's also dependent on crossover slopes.


Yeah sure...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Clvol1255

I have my pods filled with black hole stuffing without the back caps crossed at 2.8 kHz and they get better sounding daily. More dynamic with even better detail when I filled with stuffing


----------



## kattan_tha_man

Ge0 said:


> Too tired tonight to start. Here is a sneak peek of what I have brewing...
> 
> View attachment 286398
> 
> 
> View attachment 286399
> 
> 
> View attachment 286400
> 
> 
> View attachment 286426
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> View attachment 286404
> 
> 
> View attachment 286405
> 
> 
> View attachment 286406
> 
> 
> More one this tomorrow...
> 
> Ge0


You got me hooked. Sound deaden the **** out of everything and marvel at how sweet it sounds.


----------



## Ge0

OK folks. Breaking in some new speakers.






































My first impression of the ML3's was meh... Nice sounding but don't stand out above the others I'm testing. I'm going to put some hours on them to break them in before I start my critical listening. Let's lett'em loosen up a little.

Now these...




































These caught my attention immediately. I wasn't expecting a lot from them. Another $300 set of tweeters. But WOW was I underestimating them. Smooth, crisp, detailed, and project stage depth deeper than my beloved Piccolo's. I'm going to let these wear in a bit. But, my initial impression (again with a Xcelsus product) is nothing short of astounding considering their price.


----------



## ocuriel

Can wait for this review. May need to try those Excelsus out. They do look huge though. Going to look up the measurements to get an idea on their size.


----------



## Ge0

ocuriel said:


> Can wait for this review. May need to try those Excelsus out. They do look huge though. Going to look up the measurements to get an idea on their size.


You won't find that info online. Xcelsus doesn't post it. I'll make a 2D drawing of them tomorrow.

Also, the tweeter face and back cup come unscrewed. Let's see if we can make them smaller for custom applications.


----------



## cman

I am also wondering what the overall diameter of the xcelsus tweeter is... they do not have jack for info online..


----------



## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> OK folks. Breaking in some new speakers.
> View attachment 298248
> 
> 
> View attachment 298249
> 
> 
> View attachment 298250
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 298251
> 
> 
> My first impression of the ML3's was meh... Nice sounding but don't stand out above the others I'm testing. I'm going to put some hours on them to break them in before I start my critical listening. Let's lett'em loosen up a little.
> 
> Now these...
> View attachment 298252
> 
> 
> View attachment 298253
> 
> 
> View attachment 298254
> 
> 
> View attachment 298255
> 
> 
> These caught my attention immediately. I wasn't expecting a lot from them. Another $300 set of tweeters. But WOW was I underestimating them. Smooth, crisp, detailed, and project stage depth deeper than my beloved Piccolo's. I'm going to let these wear in a bit. But, my initial impression (again with a Xcelsus product) is nothing short of astounding considering their price.
> 
> 
> View attachment 298256
> 
> 
> View attachment 298257


I agree with you on the ML3 - they very mellow sounding - they don’t seem to have that detail that helps the midrange clarity. 

However in a car environment the ML3’s do sound good.

Did you notice the sensitivity of the Xcelsus tweeters compared to say the TBM’s...? Seems they need a little more power vs the TBMs 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

Elektra said:


> I agree with you on the ML3 - they very mellow sounding - they don’t seem to have that detail that helps the midrange clarity.
> 
> However in a car environment the ML3’s do sound good.
> 
> Did you notice the sensitivity of the Xcelsus tweeters compared to say the TBM’s...? Seems they need a little more power vs the TBMs
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree with your assessment so far. ML3 is a little laid back. The XXT30 needed a +3dB boost over the TBM's. But, that was expected. The TBM's are very sensitive.


----------



## clange2485

cman said:


> I am also wondering what the overall diameter of the xcelsus tweeter is... they do not have jack for info online..


Tweeter width - 66.28 mm
Cutout - 49.85 mm
Depth - 28.82 mm 

Info provided thanks to DaveG.


----------



## ocuriel

On the big side but not as big as I thought. Nice! Thanks for the info! 👍🏼


----------



## Ge0

clange2485 said:


> Tweeter width - 66.28 mm
> Cutout - 49.85 mm
> Depth - 28.82 mm
> 
> Info provided thanks to DaveG.


Screw hole dia = 3.5mm
Counterbore dia = 6.0mm
Bolt circle dia = 59.1mm


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## cman

Shiiiiiiiooottt! Not going to fit in my car without the sails protruding into my window. Dang guess I will look for something else.

Thanks for the info guys


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

cman said:


> Shiiiiiiiooottt! Not going to fit in my car without the sails protruding into my window. Dang guess I will look for something else.
> 
> Thanks for the info guys


The grill/baffle is removable from the driver if I'm not mistaken. Would make it significantly smaller


----------



## Ge0

cman said:


> Shiiiiiiiooottt! Not going to fit in my car without the sails protruding into my window. Dang guess I will look for something else.
> 
> Thanks for the info guys


Too bad man. These tweeters are sweet!!!


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

Ge0 said:


> Too bad man. These tweeters are sweet!!!


Stoked for your review on these. I've decided my GB10s are gonna be switched out for something, just don't know what yet. May break down and just get a set of piccolo since they have always been my "end game" tweeters, but would be nice to spend a touch less hahah.


----------



## DaveG

@Ge0 appreciate and value your input! Thank you. MT-350's getting close to the rotation? Anxious for your input. Dave


----------



## Ge0

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Stoked for your review on these. I've decided my GB10s are gonna be switched out for something, just don't know what yet. May break down and just get a set of piccolo since they have always been my "end game" tweeters, but would be nice to spend a touch less hahah.


Early impressions. The XXT30's match the performance of the Piccolo V1. However, they are still behind the Piccolo v2. For the money though. These suckers are a no brainer. I like them better than my Scan D3004's


----------



## RyuTsuiSen

Ge0 said:


> Early impressions. The XXT30's match the performance of the Piccolo V1. However, they are still behind the Piccolo v2. For the money though. These suckers are a no brainer. I like them better than my Scan D3004's


 

He admitted it!

Honestly you saying you put them above the scans surprised me the most 

Any idea how low they'll comfortably play?

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

RyuTsuiSen said:


> He admitted it!
> 
> Honestly you saying you put them above the scans surprised me the most
> 
> Any idea how low they'll comfortably play?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


Not yet. I run 3 way setups so no need to drop them any lower than 2.5KHz. I'm currently running them at 3KHz.


----------



## cman

Ge0 said:


> Too bad man. These tweeters are sweet!!!


yeah this is what I’m working with... I will be glassing A pillars soon but I plan on making them flat not angled so the tweeters need to be in my sails not my pillars... unless I angle the A pillars instead of making them flat..

the alternative is to fabricate to the left covering part of my window since if I fabricate to the right/inside it will hit my dash... I’m still trying to find a good tweeter small enough.. I might have to make some compromises somewhere...




















Ge0 said:


> Early impressions. The XXT30's match the performance of the Piccolo V1. However, they are still behind the Piccolo v2. For the money though. These suckers are a no brainer. I like them better than my Scan D3004's


wow that’s impressive especially for the price! It looks similar to other high end silk domes... very shiny like the hand coated domes from morel are.


----------



## DaveG

cman said:


> yeah this is what I’m working with... I will be glassing A pillars soon but I plan on making them flat not angled so the tweeters need to be in my sails not my pillars... unless I angle the A pillars instead of making them flat..
> 
> the alternative is to fabricate to the left covering part of my window since if I fabricate to the right/inside it will hit my dash... I’m still trying to find a good tweeter small enough.. I might have to make some compromises somewhere...
> 
> View attachment 298423
> 
> View attachment 298424
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wow that’s impressive especially for the price! It looks similar to other high end silk domes... very shiny like the hand coated domes from morel are.


The flange unscrews but still the body is too wide but depth is probably more of the problem.


----------



## cman

DaveG said:


> The flange unscrews but still the body is too wide but depth is probably more of the problem.


Thanks for the info... Man these xcelsus all have had stellar feedback from people... asides from the few discepancies on the build quality which is not completely unexpected considering the price... if you can get a good pair of them it sounds like they are on point as far as sound quality.


----------



## preston

> Man these xcelsus all have had stellar feedback from people...


I'm eagerly a waiting the review(?) comparison between the mid-ranges - particularly how the Utopia and Xcelsus stack up against the E430 (and by inference, the 12M)


----------



## DeLander

Ok. I guess I missed it somewhere, but......
Where are you guys getting these Xcelsus drivers from ?


----------



## Isaradia

xxm325's were preferred over audison voce 3's in a passive 3 way, paired with a focal 8, and stevens tweeters on a jl rd 5 channel, heavily deadened doors, c6 corvette. vocal separation from instruments was slightly better, guitar slightly more pronounced and clearer, biggest change was the sharpness of snare? drums, big difference there. change was barely noticeable on edm and hip hop, aside from specific parts of specific tracks, helped guitar and vocals on country, made a big difference on rock music. that system plays what i consider to be "plenty loud enough for personal in car musical appreciation" meaning, not something i would try to blow anyone away with, or listen outside of the car, but i didnt use max volume for listening, because i didnt need to. the mids kept up with this output level while maintaining perfect composure. absolutely a great buy for and sq minded listener on a moderate budget.
@DeLander the ones i listened to came from a local distributor


----------



## chrisp2493

Just found this thread this morning and read almost all 450+ replies. Good stuff! I’m setting up my build right now and researching so it helped. I already ordered the ScanSpeak D3004/60200’s so hopefully I’ll be happy with them. They are listed as “textile dome”, not specifically “silk dome”. Since they have all kinds of similar model numbers, am I correct in assuming their textile is actually silk? Just making sure I’m comparing the same tweeters you guys are testing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ge0

chrisp2493 said:


> Just found this thread this morning and read almost all 450+ replies. Good stuff! I’m setting up my build right now and researching so it helped. I already ordered the ScanSpeak D3004/60200’s so hopefully I’ll be happy with them. They are listed as “textile dome”, not specifically “silk dome”. Since they have all kinds of similar model numbers, am I correct in assuming their textile is actually silk? Just making sure I’m comparing the same tweeters you guys are testing
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Who knows. I use the term silk as a generalization. H3ll, it could be a polyester blend for all I know. Then they coat it with super special sauce to make them sound phenomenal. They are some really nice tweets. I'm sure you'll be happy with them.


----------



## cman

Ge0 said:


> Who knows. I use the term silk as a generalization. H3ll, it could be a polyester blend for all I know. Then they coat it with super special sauce to make them sound phenomenal. They are some really nice tweets. I'm sure you'll be happy with them.


This is true for many companies as well. They say silk dome. Some seprate it from Silk, or Textile, or polyester, Tetolon, etc. Some group them all togther. But in the end it's not down to the material implemented, its how the design as a whole is executed. There are poorly performing pure silk domes and there are very high end (great sounding, low distortion, etc.) polyester or textile domes.


----------



## Ge0

cman said:


> This is true for many companies as well. They say silk dome. Some seprate it from Silk, or Textile, or polyester, Tetolon, etc. Some group them all togther. But in the end it's not down to the material implemented, its how the design as a whole is executed. There are poorly performing pure silk domes and there are very high end (great sounding, low distortion, etc.) polyester or textile domes.


The more I think about it they are either Spandex or Denim


----------



## chrisp2493

Just double checking to make sure I’m on the same page with the exact model I have. Funny thing about Madison Sound Speaker store, if you order a single tweeter, they just cut the box in half and mail that lol. My fault for not realizing it wasn’t sold in pairs so I guess I gotta make another order 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ge0

chrisp2493 said:


> Just double checking to make sure I’m on the same page with the exact model I have. Funny thing about Madison Sound Speaker store, if you order a single tweeter, they just cut the box in half and mail that lol. My fault for not realizing it was sold in pairs so I guess I gotta make another order
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


ROTFL!!!😆🤣😂😅. Yep. Perhaps


----------



## Mullings

chrisp2493 said:


> Just double checking to make sure I’m on the same page with the exact model I have. Funny thing about Madison Sound Speaker store, if you order a single tweeter, they just cut the box in half and mail that lol. My fault for not realizing it was sold in pairs so I guess I gotta make another order
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Isaradia

chrisp2493 said:


> Just double checking to make sure I’m on the same page with the exact model I have. Funny thing about Madison Sound Speaker store, if you order a single tweeter, they just cut the box in half and mail that lol. My fault for not realizing it was sold in pairs so I guess I gotta make another order
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


wtf lmao


----------



## Ge0

I remember a for sale thread recently for a set of ScanSpeak 12m's. The person listing the speakers said "for some reason the box had been cut in half and then duct taped back together". That quirky add is starting to make sense now...


----------



## Ge0

All done with these combos. Just need to clean up my notes and draft my writeup.


----------



## Ge0

Looking to fit in a couple special requests before moving back to midranges.

Morel MT-350









Stevens Audio Soft Dome Tweeter:


----------



## MythosDreamLab

I wish someone would buy the Audison Thesis TH 1.5 II Violino's (_that I currently have for sale_) and submit them to you to test - I'm selling brand new ones for the same price that the last used pair sold for... I would love to have your opinion of how they compared to the best of the best...!


----------



## bbfoto

If I currently needed another set of tweeters I would definitely buy these and send them to _Ge0_. Amazing price for these!

I believe that Jason Bertholomey is still using these in his Audi and swears by them...and I trust his ears and impressions.


----------



## Gill

MythosDreamLab said:


> I wish someone would buy the Audison Thesis TH 1.5 II Violino's (_that I currently have for sale_) and submit them to you to test - I'm selling brand new ones for the same price that the last used pair sold for... I would love to have your opinion of how they compared to the best of the best...!


Send them over, direct to him, let Ge0 share his review.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

Amazing work!


----------



## Ge0

The Google doc I store my reviews in is now up to 53 pages. I think I've only published about 10 pages so far. It's been 6 months in the making. I don't think I would call that amazing work. Writing is not my strong point. My mind wanders too much and I get writers block.


----------



## Ge0

As far as the Stevens Audio Soft Dome Tweets above. Early impressions. If you painted them Black and called them ScanSpeak I don't think you would be able to tell the difference between them and the D3004. Maybe the SASDT's are a little more bright. Time will tell. I like'em.


----------



## MythosDreamLab

Gill said:


> Send them over, direct to him, let Ge0 share his review.


But they are sealed...Extra $50 discount to anyone who buys them and sends them to geo for a review/comparison...!


----------



## MythosDreamLab

Ge0 said:


> The Google doc I store my reviews in is now up to 53 pages. I think I've only published about 10 pages so far. It's been 6 months in the making. I don't think I would call that amazing work. Writing is not my strong point. My mind wanders too much and I get writers block.


I marvel at the depth of your descriptive words!


----------



## Ge0

More cool stuff came in today:


----------



## Isaradia

are the d3004 textiles on madisound $120 per or $120 pair?


----------



## SNCTMPL

Per


----------



## Isaradia

ok, so as long as you can find a way to mount the massive things, the SA1's may be the best tweeter for a low budget sq build?


----------



## Ge0

Isaradia said:


> ok, so as long as you can find a way to mount the massive things, the SA1's may be the best tweeter for a low budget sq build?


There is not much of a difference between the D3004 and D2004 when crossed at 3KHz. The D2004 is much easier to package. The Stevens soft domes are a little brighter like I mentioned prior.


----------



## Isaradia

the d2004's seem to be about the same price? im assuming brighter to be a negative in this context based on tone?


----------



## Ge0

Isaradia said:


> the d2004's seem to be about the same price? im assuming brighter to be a negative in this context based on tone?


No, brighter is not a negative. It's just a descriptive. When tuned to a flat frequency response the upper midrange seems to stick out a little more with the SASDT's than it does the ScanSpeak's. Perhaps they are a little more sensitive in this region.

This is not bad or good. It's really up to personal preference. The Scan's are my reference tweet. I consider them neutral sounding. The SASDT's play slightly above neutral in the upper midrange. Not to the point of being harsh or standing out. It's just their sonic signature. Some people prefer this, some people don't.


----------



## Ge0

*Review: Xcelsus XXT30 tweeter paired with Brax ML3, Focal 3.5wm midrange, and Xcelsus XXM325 midrange.








*









































My initial observation. The Xcelsus XXT30’s are much alike, but a little more laid back, than the Morel Piccolo’s. They have a similar tonality but are slightly more subdued. At first I had the XXT30’s paired with the Brax ML3’s. I thought this combo was too laid back for my preference. So, I switched over to evaluating it with the Focal 3.5wm. Now this combo was nice. 

The light snare brush strokes and crisp guitar notes came back on Calexico’s “Dub Latina”. The XXT30 paired with the 3.5wm also set a beautiful holographic sound stage. The same goes for Alice in Chains “Rooster”. The beginning guitar strums were pretty [email protected] lifelike. They set a fair stage depth between left / right guitar which sit up front and vocals / percussion which were centered but set back. Layne Staley’s vocals were clear and powerful. The backing guitars hummed and buzzed just as they do with the best drivers I’ve heard. Also the vocals in Patricia Barber “Too Rich for My Blood” were silky smooth. But, when she hit her ultra high dynamic notes the XXT30’s did not hesitate. They replicated her crescendos perfectly.

The XXT30 offers the almost same stage depth as the Piccolo. They cast a nice deep holographic image. But the Piccolo and TBM still have the edge by being able to place specific sounds in space vs. just creating the space.

The mariachi horns in Calexico’s “El Picadore” sounded pleasingly dynamic but just a tad harsh at high volume (loud enough to replicate sitting up front of a live performance) with the XXT30.

The XXT30’s lose a bit of dynamic range replication vs the TBM but are more dynamic than the Piccolo. In Calexico’s “Crumble” the horn solos really stood out. As did the orchestra crescendos in Saint Saens Symphony “Danse Macabre”. 

The XXT30 loses out on a little detail vs. the TBM or Piccolo. This is only really noticed during intricate percussion work like cymbal rides, high hat, or clicking sticks. Also with well mic’d guitar plucks. You can hear this by listening closely to the last 2 minutes of Patricia Barber’s “Nardis” or the Arne Domnérus song “Drum Boogie”. The XXT30’s have a very similar detail signature to the Piccolo. They keep detail at bay and only bring it forward as the song requires.

The XT30’s have a wonderful tonality. They are VERY close to the Scan D3004 but a little more forward sounding. The XXT30’s are definitely much better at creating a spacious sound stage than the Scan’s.

The Rux Review song “Asphalt Yards” creates a huge / wide soundstage when played back properly. With the XXT30’s and 3.5wm’s the soundstage was contained within boundaries between speakers but was deep. I’ve found this to be a tradeoff in all speakers I’ve tested. They either cast no image, a wide image, or a deep image. I have not run across a combo yet that does both wide and deep. 

Like the Piccolo’s the XXT30’s may not be my first choice when primarily listening to metal tunes. While they do just fine playing songs like Gojira “Amazonia” or the Ministries “Ass Clown” they just don’t have the dynamic range to really do these song’s justice. They are more well balanced. Whereas I believe metal tunes should be played back with a more dynamic tweeter such as the Focal Utopia M TBM or of course the Steven’s HCLD’s

The overall listening experience was tonally different when switching from the Focal 3.5wm midrange to the Xcelsus XXM325 midrange. The higher end of male vocal was accentuated a little by the XXM325's. However, I didn't hear any significant difference when going back to listen to all the same tunes again. You'll hear this in my review of the XXM325. I am quite pleased with them as well. When paired together the Xcelsus combo can make for a quite pleasant sound quality listening experience for a fraction of the cost of other solutions.

Over all the XXT30’s are a very pleasant set of tweeters to listen to. They hang in there with my favorites (Piccolo’s and TBM’s) with not much else left to be desired. They are an absolute steal for the price. I would pick them over the ScanSpeak D3004 if I had to make the choice. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED


*Xcelsus XXT30 Soft Dome Tweeter Rating*

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 3.5 of 4
Spaciousness 3.5 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 3.5 of 4
Dynamics 3 of 4


----------



## Ge0

*Review: Xcelsus XXM325 midrange paired with XXT30 and Focal Utopia TBM tweeters*










































Opener: It seems strange that I am publishing the review of this midrange first. I’ve done detailed reviews on at least 6 others. However, it currently has the most community buzz going on about it. I might as well satisfy the masses.

I could sit and listen to the XXM325 midranges all day. They have wonderful tonality, lifelike presentation, and a beautiful center image. They seemed to get a little more mellow as I spent a few hours breaking them in. However, they still have a somewhat “sharp” sounding signature that lands them somewhere between the Focal 3.5wm and Dynaudio E430. 

One of the first things you will notice is the drivers I compare these to. This is for a reason. I truly believe the XXm325’s are in a similar league.

The XXM325’s cast a wider stage than the Focal 3.5wm’s. But, they are a little less detailed as the 3.5wm’s or the E430’s. Also, the XXM325’s don’t sound as holographic (less depth of field) as the 3.5wm’s or the E430’s. Setting that aside they are a great sounding speaker. I enjoyed listening to them throughout songs and genres in my library.

The XXM325’s tonal signature is very similar to the Focal 3.5wm’s (meaning they are a little more forward sounding). But, they are not as harsh on less than optimal materials like film and television broadcast. The Focal 3.5wm’s might be the best for pure high definition music content. But, the XXM325’s have 90% of the performance and are a better “all purpose” solution if you will be listening to other material such as films or news casts.

The XXM325’s blend into music seamlessly like other high performance midranges. Meaning, you don’t even realize speakers are there. I can’t say this for other midranges I tried like the ScanSpeak 12M, 10F, or Dynaudio MF171. Those drivers can sound really good but they don’t disappear. You still sense you are listening to music through speakers.

Like I said earlier, the XXM325’s sacrifice stage depth and some 3D spatial cues. For instance, when the 3.5WM’s or E430’s are paired with the Piccolo’s magic happens. The soundstage becomes multi-layered and 3D due to additional depth cues. The multi-layer stage depth noticeably collapses to only a few layers when substituting the XXM325’s. You can hear various layers and depth but can’t accurately pinpoint instruments or sounds in space.

The reduced stage depth is mostly evident when listening to technical tracks that focus on depth and creating 3D space. Depth does not collapse entirely. However, some of the layering is lost. This is by no means a show stopper. It’s just different going without it once you’ve heard it. It’s a similar effect than going from the TBM to Piccolo when paired with the 3.5wm’s. The TBM’s still offered some stage depth but not as spacious as the Piccolo’s. This is what led me to pair the XXM325’s with the TBM’s. They complement each other's strong points quite well.

The XXM325’s have a very pleasing tonality. They nail Days of the New “Face of the Earth” perfectly. The guitars sound rich and detailed. Travis’s vocals sound astonishing but get a little raspy at higher volumes. But to be fair most, if not all, other speakers I am evaluating behave the same.

My biggest surprise was that the XXM325’s also nailed any Patricia Barber song I threw at them. These are among my best recordings. They are highly detailed and dynamic. The XXM325’s did not break a sweat. I went back and listened to these tracks a few times not only trying to find faults, but, because it sounded too dang good. As a matter of fact I found my first flaw in the recording of the track Nardis using these midranges. You could hear the noise gate used during recording switch in and out while Patrica's vocals hit silent patches. 

I was expecting these things to puke during Patricia’s song “Too Rich for My Blood”. At 5:00 into the song she hits some extremely high and dynamic vocals causing many speakers distort. But, the XXM325’s held their composure, even at high volume. 

Now I need to go back and check the same passages on the Focal’s and Dyn’s. 

Moving from the 3.5WM to the XXM325 to the 3.5WM again (those two speakers sound a lot alike) I decided to go back to the E430’s.

What can you say about the E430’s? Perhaps the perfect midrange? It offers 90% of the detail of the Focal (like the XXM325) but is more mature and mellowed out about it. The E430 just blends into the atmosphere. It is not forward and jumpy like the 3.5WM. It’s the Focals bigger, more calm, brother. The 3.5WM’s can sound like an angry German when the E430’s sound as smooth as Barry White. The E430’s just have a better overall balance. They never “get in your face” like the Focals can on dicey material.

Don’t get me wrong. The Focals are a wonderful speaker. But, tend to be hot headed when the playback material is not perfect. You can’t beat them with well recorded hi-res audio. But, don’t try to listen to them while watching a football game on broadcast television where they tend to jack audio levels. The 3.5wm’s will spit that right back in your face.

E430 vocals and instruments replicated perfectly. Natural sounding with no bite. Kurt Ellings voice is replicated perfectly. Just as he sounds live. 

So where does this leave the XXM325’s in my world? Somewhere in between the 3.5wm’s and the E430’s. Maybe a middle brother that not many people pay attention to?

The XXM325 is very detailed and revealing. For instance, you can hear singers parting their lips, taking a breath, etc. Spit sizzling on the reed of a saxophone or flange of a trumpet. Fingers leaving a guitar string and the amount of force / friction involved. The XXM325 does all of this without over emphasizing anything within the audible spectrum. Everything sounds well balanced and just right.

Overall another big hit for Xcelsus. The XXM325 is a midrange that can hang in there with my favorite high end devices for a fraction of the cost. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.

*Xcelsus XXM325 midrange rating:*

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 3.5 of 4
Spaciousness 3.5 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 3.5 of 4
Dynamics 3.5 of 4


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## SkizeR

Just out of curiosity, are you making any measurements to verify crossovers, phase through the crossover, response, etc.. because a lot of these staging cues might be something as simple as that. 

Another thing, obviously this is a car audio forum and you are probably comparing these to see what you want to use in your car(s). How we use speakers in a car is with a processor and we equalize the response to correct the peaks and nulls of the environment AND the speakers themselves. I think you should be equalizing these and shaping crossovers and verifying phase cohesion JUST as we do in a car audio install so it's actually apples to apples. 

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


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## Ge0

SkizeR said:


> Just out of curiosity, are you making any measurements to verify crossovers, phase through the crossover, response, etc.. because a lot of these staging cues might be something as simple as that.
> 
> Another thing, obviously this is a car audio forum and you are probably comparing these to see what you want to use in your car(s). How we use speakers in a car is with a processor and we equalize the response to correct the peaks and nulls of the environment AND the speakers themselves. I think you should be equalizing these and shaping crossovers and verifying phase cohesion JUST as we do in a car audio install so it's actually apples to apples.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


I explained my setup and listening environment back about 20 pages ago.

























Speakers are sitting on top of a 1-3/4" thick hardwood butcher block table. Plenty of glass and hard plastic surfaces around the speakers to create a bit of reflection issues. Speakers are currently driven by a spare Helix V Twelve amplifier I had laying around. I am fully utilizing the amps DSP functions just as I would in vehicle.

I measure each set of divers I hook up to test. Phase coherence is not that big of an issue in this case dues to atmosphere but I am still monitoring it.

300Hz crossover point for midrange









3KHz crossover for tweeter









Quick frequency response plot of the next set I have on the block for testing:










I don't need to use as much EQ in this setup as I would a car. At least not for midrange and treble. But, midbass has some room modes I can't do much with. Like the suck out you see at 100hz. I did do some shaping in the midbass to subbass transition.


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## Ge0

SkizeR said:


> Just out of curiosity, are you making any measurements to verify crossovers, phase through the crossover, response, etc.. because a lot of these staging cues might be something as simple as that.
> 
> Another thing, obviously this is a car audio forum and you are probably comparing these to see what you want to use in your car(s). How we use speakers in a car is with a processor and we equalize the response to correct the peaks and nulls of the environment AND the speakers themselves. I think you should be equalizing these and shaping crossovers and verifying phase cohesion JUST as we do in a car audio install so it's actually apples to apples.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


I also forgot to mention that all drivers under test are being tested under the exact same conditions unless there is some issue preventing me from doing so. Midrange highpass crossover point is 300Hz. Midrange to tweeter crossover point is 3000hz.

The differences I hear are attributed to the speakers themselves, not a change to the setting or environment.

So far I have not had an issue with this. All the 3" to 4" midranges I've tried can play down to 300Hz without stress. I'd like to lower this to 250Hz or even 200hz. But, I feel not all midranges will do this gracefully at higher volumes. And I like my higher volumes .

As as far as the tweeter setpoint is concerned. That's a toss up. If testing a midrange I would like it to be higher, say 4000Hz or maybe 5000Hz. That MIGHT work if they are directly on axis. But, realistically in a car I would be listening to them off axis. So, I keep the crossover point lower to minimize the effect of beaming. 3000Hz is that sweet spot.

If testing tweeters you may want to drop the crossover point lower. But, doing so risks them sounding nasty at higher volumes. That, and I want most of the vocal range covered by one driver. In this case its the midrange. I've found that tweeters play a larger role in establishing spatial cues than they do in vocal re-enforcement so I keep the crossover point higher. Again, 3000hz seems to be the sweet spot.


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## Ge0

*Dynaudio MF171 Midrange paired with MT171 tweeter and ScanSpeak D3004 Silk tweeter*


























































The MF171 is a nice mid level midrange. It did not WOW me with detail like the WM3.5 or E430. but, it held its own against the likes of my Scan 10F. Midrange sounds nice but loses its “lifelike” quality. Like the MT171 gets a little harsh at higher volumes. Nice slightly subdued tonality 2.5 out of 4 for detail. The MF171 is laid back and mellow in comparison to the Scan 10F. Given an identical tuning the Scan tends to emphasize upper midrange making it seem warmer. The MT171 stays chill letting nothing stand out. Both drivers sound pretty good once you sit and listen to them for a while. Which one you select is up to personal taste. Also, when listening to my comments please keep in mind, I am comparing them to some of the best products on the market. 

The MF171’s are almost too mellow for me. This is weird since they are sold as a set with the MT171 tweeter. The MT171’s are super sensitive and very detailed. I had to boost the MF171’s 6dB to match the tweeters output level. The MF171 has a weird sonic signature where it makes vocals seem deep in the stage. However, the tweeters draw it forward. This makes for a strange split in the field of depth. Sadly, the MF171’s just seem lifeless after listening to the E430’s for a month. Perhaps I should have never bought the E430’s. It seems like nothing else is going to compare. 

Vocal harshness in the song Quando Quando Quando at higher volume. Could be attributed to 700Hz +6dB boost I had set to flatten response. I backed it off to +3dB and it helped a little. At the expense of slightly dulling vocals. Vocals have a very subdued tone. They seem a little lifeless, like Michael Bubble and Nelly Furtado did not want to be signing but were just going through the motions.

The MF171 midranges start to sound better as they break in. I hooked them up new from the box. They still are not super detailed but they are very musical sounding. Nice lush male vocals on Nirvana Unplugged. Still feel like I am listening to speakers. Not spooky realistic. But nice pleasant sound. 

Days of the New “Face of Earth” - laid back nature of the midrange tends to push Travis’s voice deeper in the stage. However, guitars on left and right channels get pulled forward due to the lively nature of the MT171 tweeter. That and percussion crashes in center are also pulled forward due to the tweets. Travis’s voice is not well focused in center. Presentation is a little wide compared to other midranges.

Harry Conick’s voice sounded smooth and mellow during “Nowhere with Love” (which is acceptable for his voice).. However, the piano solo sounded dull. Also, the wailing horns did not have any pop during musical crescendos. I would prefer a more lively midrange for this song.

The MT171’s really carried the MF171’s through Dave Brubeck's “Time Out” album. They produced nice and crisp percussion that balanced out the smooth and laid back midrange playing back Paul’s sax and Dave’s piano. Some detail in standup bass string plucking was missing. However, the album was still very enjoyable listening to with this duo.

Joshua Redman's sax sounded a little dull during “Invocation”. Almost like his reed was too wet and worn out. Rich overtones of his instrument were just missing. Definitely laid back. However, the piano in the left hand corner sounded great. The pianists fingers were just floating off the keys. If you listen in the background detailed percussion is there. It’s just not brought forward as much as other drivers I prefer.

Alice In Chains song “Brother” the guitars lacked a lot of the overtones that other midranges can replicate. The guitars sounded nice but seemed too lifeless. Likewise, Lane and Jerry’s voices sound good with nothing that stands out. But, they are a little dull. 

Opening guitars on Pantera’s “This Love” sounded awesome. The MF171’s took some edge off Philips' growing voice but did an awesome job doing him justice. His vocals sounded great through these midranges. The wailing metal guitar came through clean as well but did miss some of the crisp bite you would expect it to have. This is a song I consider to have too much upper midrange mix. The MF171’s tamed that nicely. Everything with the exception of Philips growl at 4:40 was pretty spot on. However, this growl was kind of suppressed.

Pairing the MF171 with the MT171 does help things a little. The MT171’s are more sensitive than the Scan D3004 and a little more forward. This helps compensate for the dull tonality of the midrange. The tweeter helps bring some balance back. However, does get a little harsh at high volume like what you must listen to Pantera at. Not the best, but not a bad sounding experience at all.

The MF171 / MT171 combo did a great job playing back songs I find difficult to replicate without being harsh. PJ Harvey “Rub It Until It Bleeds” and both Chris Cornell songs sounded great played back through this combo. A majority of the sibilance and hash was gone. Just great tonality.

Chris Isaak's voice was a little laid back (I know, really?) on the MF171 / MT171 but overall the song sounded awesome. The MF171’s make his voice smooth as silk.

Calexico’s song “Crumble” was mellower than I prefer. The horns blended in too much and lacked the “pop” other midrange / tweeter combos can offer.

The Dyn duo absolutely nailed the Beastie Boys “B for My Name”. The only thing missing was the airy holographic image that the E430’s or 3.5wm’s project. Tonality was spot on. The duo hit all the song's dynamics without a problem.

The beginning of Patrica Barber's song “Nardis” is laid back and subdued. The piano solo just rolled off the pianist's fingers and flowed nicely. The duo played this back beautifully. As good as the E430’s do. However, the second half of the song becomes very detailed and dynamic. The MT171’s could keep up but I fear the midranges fell a little short on many of the high impact percussion hits. The cymbal rides that start at minute marker 7:00 were spot on and almost as engaging as they are with the E430 / D3004 combo.

Chevelle’s “Face to the Floor” absolutely rocked on this combo. Again, another song that can come off harsh. The MF171 / MT171 smoothed it right out and played it back to blistering volumes without a sweat. The tone of the opening guitar was as crisp and clear as I have heard.

GoJira’s song “Love” was also replicated near perfectly. However, you could tell a little detail was missing. With the wm3.5’s you can hear distinct crowd member cheers in the background as the music is playing. The MF171 let you know a crowd was there but it was not well defined. The drum strikes and kick bass were replicated well. You could hear Joe’s growling voice clearly. Mario’s cymbal strikes were pretty harsh at high volume. The metal guitars hummed along just as they should. Mario’s drum clicks at the end sounded OK but lacked the realism other speakers offered.

Igorrr’s song “Camel Dancefloor” is a fun EDM tune that is mostly synthesized. The MF171 / MT171 duo replicated this song loud and clear with great balance. Again, a little detail was lacking but that is not as important with this type of Song.

Patricia Barber’s Bye Bye Blackbird is a laid back song to begin with. It was replicated very well with the MF171 / MT171 duo. Aain, the only thing missing was the holographic airiness that the top tier E430 and 3.5wm offer. But tonally and image wise these speakers were spot on. 

Would I use these drivers in my car? Probably, if I were on a budget. Or, if I liked a more laid back musical representation.

*Dynaudio MF171 Esotan 3.5” midrange rating:*

Tonality 3 of 4
Detail 2 of 4
Spaciousness 2 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 3.5 of 4
Dynamics 2.5 of 4


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## Ge0

*Dyn MT171 paired with Focal 3.5wm and Xcelsus XXM325 midranges*









































This is going to be a short writeup since I said a lot about these tweeters in my MF171 writeup. I will add to this if folks have specific questions.

What a pleasant surprise! This lower tier Dynaudio tweeter sounds fantastic. I like it better than its older brother the MD102. It’s little on the bright side compared to my reference ScanSpeak D3004. The MT171 can get a little harsh at higher volume but nothing that is unpleasant or distracting. They also get a tad bit sibilant at higher volume. But, a solid 3 out of 4 for normal listening levels. 

I like these because I am one of the few folks who think the MD102 tweeter is too laid back. The new MT171 on the other hand is just as good sounding. However, it offers more detail than the MD102. Similar to a ScanSpeak D3004 but not quite THAT detailed. The MT171 is a good balance between the D3004 and MD102. 

The MT171 does not have the -4dB droop in the upper midrange that the MD102 has. They are easy to tune. If you ever get a chance to try the MT171's you should. They are a gem that not too many folks talk about. They don’t get the justice they deserve. They very closely compare to the ScanSpeak D3004 with a slightly more bright voicing.

*Dynaudio MT171 1” soft dome tweeter rating:*

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 3 of 4
Spaciousness 2.5 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 3 of 4
Dynamics 3 of 4


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## Ge0

*REVIEW: Stevens Audio Soft Dome Tweeter paired with Focal Utopia 3.5wm midranges*










































My first thought the second I heard the Steve’s Audio Soft Dome Tweeter was “man do these sound like the Scan D2004 / D3004 silks”. They have excellent tonality. They also seem to be highly detailed. The SASDT does provide a touch of spaciousness. But not nearly the 3D image the TBM’s or Piccolo’s can project.

Thurman Green “Minor Blue” and “Dance of the Night Creatures” offered a sense of depth. But it was difficult to distinguish various fields of depth of the instruments. Trombone should be center or left center (but set back a bit) depending on the track. Baritone sax should be to the right along with the trumpet. The bass should be planted left center behind the trombone. The piano is also center but planted further back than the bass. Percussion to the right but set back a bit. These positions were hard to make out with the SASDT’s. It’s like there were only 2 layers of sound. In comparison, the Xcelsus XXT30’s succeeded in establishing a more spatial presence. You could sense the layers of depth more accurately although instrument positioning was a little vague. Finally, the TBM’s took the crown by not only offering a more natural sounding playback, but helped pinpoint each instrument solid in 3D space around the sound stage.

The Maggie Koernerr songs “Cayute Woman” and “Trees in a Line” are studio recordings that don’t contain spatial cues. These songs focus more on tone and detail. The SASDT’s nailed them. They captured the recording session as accurately as any other tweet I’ve evaluated these songs with. The percussion is not closely mic’d and seems a little muted. But Maggie’s voice comes through soft yet powerful.

Dave Bruebeck’s “Three to Get Ready” and “Pick up Sticks” are part of my percussion test set. Again, the SASDT’s nailed these songs. Each cymbal strike was crisp and clear. Paul’s alto sax remained warm and rich in tone. The percussion lacked a ever so minor amount of detail when compared to the best of the best. But, the song was very enjoyable to listen to. 

Dynamic enough throughout GoJira’s ballad “Love”. The tweets did not lose their composure at volumes MUCH higher than conversation level. They didn’t get noticeably harsh either. This is hard to do through Mario’s cymbal crashes at minute marker 3:00 through 3:19. Win win…

My acoustic set with Alice in Chains, Days of the New, and Nirvana. The SASDT’s were a little harsh on the cymbal crashes. However, so are the SacanSpeak D3004’s. The SASDT’s are a little brighter and detailed than the Scan’s. The Focal TBXP’s beat the SASDT’s by a small margin by offering a more natural / neutral sound. The TBXP’s do not get harsh while playing back the Days of the New song “Now”. The Xcelsus XXT30’s performed on par with the TBXP’s. The XXT30’s beat the TBXP’s only by setting a more real sounding spatial ambience. All tweets played Alice in Chains and Nirvana tunes with their own unique character. But, nothing stood out.

Terry Clark’s tune “Molten Swing” sets a huge big band backdrop. The stage is deep as it is wide. It has a larger than usual dynamic range when the short horn solos come in at 1:30, 2:30, 3:24, and 4:00. The SASDT’s do an acceptable but not excellent job setting spatial ambience. However, they are pleasing tonally. They also hit the transients with no strain at all. This further backs my opinion that they are in the same league as the Scan D3004’s. They just have a little hotter “voicing” to them vs. the Scan’s. The Scan’s are a little more laid back. In comparison, the XXT30’s fill in the 3D stage nicely. They also suck up any dynamic transient thrown at them. Finally, they pick up every little nuance occurring with the percussion in the background. Some detail the SASDT’s did not.

I don’t see it published anywhere (not even on Steven’s Facebook page) but rumor has it these tweets go for around $200 a set. At this price point I can highly recommend Steven’s Audio Soft Dome Tweeters. I recommend them for someone who wants a high performance tweeter on a budget and thinks the Scan D3004’s may be a little too laid back. 

*Stevens Audio soft dome tweeter rating*

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 3.5 of 4
Spaciousness 2.5 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 3 of 4
Dynamics 3.5 of 4


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## Ge0

*Review: Focal Utopia M TBM Beryllium dome tweeter paired with 3.5wm midrange - Revision 2*










































































I am not going to write a full report on TBM performance like I did the TBXP and Piccolo. Rather, this review will focus on the differences I found between the three devices.

The Focal TBM is almost a direct split between the Focal TBXP and Morel Supremo Piccolo. As a matter of fact I had a hard time determining the difference between the TBM and Piccolo until I went searching for alternate music. I explored 6 years of AVA, EMMA, and IASCA competition discs. Finally I found the tie breaker lies specifically in depth of field and dynamics.

The TBXP is an excellent tweeter in its own right. What it really boils down to is your personal preference. The TBXP is similar in tonality to both the TBM and Piccolo. However, it has a different presentation that makes it seem more forward. It has almost no depth of field but can cast a wider soundstage. It is also the most dynamic of the bunch. When a drummer whacks his snare or an orchestra suddenly crescendo’s this tweeter will really make this stand out. The TBXP is slightly less detailed than the other two options. When I say slightly I mean slightly. It took me several tracks to make this determination. The only fault I could find with the TBXP is that it becomes a little harsh sometime at high volume. 

To some the TBM may be the perfect trade off. It loses some of the dynamic impact and stage width of the TBXP in exchange for depth of field. In many tracks I auditioned I could sense not only a frontal sound stage, but a second layer behind that when appropriate. It is also slightly more detailed (and I mean slightly). The TBM is as smooth and polished as the Piccolo. I could not get it to sound harsh even at volumes beyond my listening comfort. To me the TBM sounds identical to the Piccolo in many aspects with a few exceptions. It has more dynamic impact than the Piccolo. The Piccolo can become a little “soft” with high energy impact such as drum whacks, bass slaps, and horn solos. The TBM can project better stage width than the Piccolo. However, the TBM can’t touch the Piccolo when it comes to depth of field.

The Piccolo is a device that just disappears and blends into the sound field. You never notice it’s there because nothing stands out. It projects a sound field depth many layers deep. It excels on EMMA test tracks that explore room boundaries. They can locate musicians on recordings that project many layers of musicians. Or, in other words they can create a 3 dimensional sound field. In comparison, the TBM offers soundstage depth and can place instruments and sounds in 3D space but not as detailed as the Piccolo. On the flip side the TBM can replicate dynamic passages the Piccolo can’t. The Piccolo seems to “Peter out” whereas the TBM just nails it.

For those who complain that the TBXP or TBM’s sound harsh. Well, it’s all in the tuning. If you take care to tune them flat, or with a slight controlled roll off, they are as smooth and detailed as anything else. If you leave any peaks in response they will sound harsh and can bite.

I’ve spent many hours now listening to the TBXP’s, TBM’s, and Piccolo’s. It’s difficult to choose a favorite. The TBM’s are the best overall of the bunch. The Piccolo’s come in a very close 2nd. They present a better 3D soundstage with tight spatial cues. But, the Piccolo’s are not as dynamic. They fall behind both the Focal’s. The TBXP is 3rd. The only reason is it falls behind both the TBM and Piccolo in producing 3D spatial cues and may lose a bit of detail to the other two.

*Focal TBM Beryllium dome tweeter rating*

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 4 of 4
Spaciousness / Depth 3.5 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 4 of 4
Dynamics 3.5 of 4


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## SkizeR

I'm very curious how this would turn out if you equalized them to the same response, just as we would in a car. 

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


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## Ge0

SkizeR said:


> I'm very curious how this would turn out if you equalized them to the same response, just as we would in a car.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


Nick,

I'm not sure what you are searching for here. I have a pretty solid test bed and have been deriving some pretty interesting results based on my SUBJECTIVE opinion.

I've already done what you suggested. My target is +/- 1dB variation throughout the midrange and treble passband. The only difference to most response curves is that I no longer tapper off the upper end as much. I'm older and my high frequency hearing response is tapering off. I posted a typical response plot above. Bass response rises 6dB 300Hz to 100Hz. Then the slope increases from 100Hz down to 20Hz.

I even used a little bit of time alignment left to right to compensate for my off center seating position and to align the sub which is sitting on the floor.


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## Elektra

I feel the same way about the 3.5wm as it can get like an angry German at times - same with the Xcelsus mids 

I swapped out the ML3’s and Xcelsus a few times as what I didn’t like about the Xcelsus I liked in the ML3’s and what I didn’t like about the ML3’s I liked in the Xcelsus - if you know what I mean

If the Brax had a little more detail it would be an easy winner...

However paired with the ML1’s the Brax setup is actually very nice - it may not present itself like that outside a car as in my tests the ML3’s where easily the worst sounding speakers vs the utopias and Xcelsus speakers and the utopias the clear winner out of all of them.

But in a car they seem to work very nicely if you set them up properly.

The utopias have more detail and are clearer outside the car and you don’t get that bite on them but in the car they seem to have a bite on them that’s not really suited to all music genres or recordings - I have always maintained that with the utopias (mids) you can almost scrap half your music library because they can sound horrible on not so good recordings. However put a great recording and they really shine.

The Xcelsus is an awesome speaker for the money and really worthwhile to guys who don’t want to spend on the top dogs. 

I have the Xcelsus mids and Utopia mids and tweeters and Brax mids spare for my next car build so I’ll decide on the combination and I’ll leave the Brax setup in the other car (mainly because it’s built and I am not going to change them)

I’ll be interested in your thoughts on the ML3’s maybe they should be paired with the piccolo or the TBM’s... 

The ML1’s turned out to be a great tweeter pity you don’t have one set to test... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

*Review: Dayton Audio RS100 midrange paired with ScanSpeak D3004 silk dome tweeter*










Dayton RS100-4: Switching from the E430’s to the RS100’s I immediately noticed the RS100’s were not nearly as sensitive. However, they sound nearly as open and airy as the E430’s. They still offer a fairly lifelike image. Strange??? Hmm. I’m impressed. The biggest difference was the RS100’s center image seemed wider and less defined. 

In Dave Brubeck's "Time Out" Paul Desmond's sax seemed a little too relaxed and positioned in the background vs. the E430. The sax sounds open and airy similar to the E430’s but has a difficult to explain “ring” to it. This may be attributed to the different cone materials used. The E430 is plastic whereas the RS100 is aluminum. This makes playback a little more lively or jumpy. Not as smooth as a presentation but still kicks @ss for a $40 driver. 

The RS100’s seem a little active or edgy like the 3.5WM’s with an ever so slight bit of harshness. But, not to the point of being annoying or fatiguing.

The RS100’s nailed the high vocal transients on Patricia Barber's Mourning Grace and Too Rich For My Blood off the Cafe Blue album. Even though they were well behaved and relaxed enough on the song Bye Bye Blackbird, they just don’t sound as soft as I feel a driver should on this song. Even the 3.5WM’s soften up on this track. The RS100’s were a little sibilant and had a sharp edge to them.

The RS100 midrange drivers are not my top choice due to their slight edginess. However, a metalhead would love them. They can get loud as hell and not stress it. I listened to some Igorrr, Pantera, and Gojira at elevated volume (cranked that sh!t up) and was pleased with how loud and clear the RS100’s could get. They absolutely shredded on Tools Chocolate chip trip.

All the Calexico songs in my lineup sounded a little too hot / bright with the RS100’s. The songs range from blaring trumpets to soft subdued vocals.

Chris Cornell's voice sounded a bit hollow and buzzy with the RS100’s. Albeit the recordings themselves are kind of HOT to emphasize his voice. In comparison the E430’s present his voice more musical than technical. But again, We are talking about drivers which are several hundred dollars apart. The RS100’s were a little harsh and thin but definitely listenable and for the most part enjoyable.

Chris Isaak's Wicked game was way hot and not as smooth as it should be. The upper midrange / lower treble seems too active even though it is EQ’d flat. Chris’s voice should be smooth and velvety. It was a tad harsh. Also, the fine percussion seemed to be saturated / overly active. I have a 24dB/octave lowpass set on this driver at 3KHz. However, it appears even though this filter is set it still wants to fight / boost the tweeter.

If I had to classify the RS100’s I would say they throw a very nice image, they are very technical, and they are a bit edgy / sharp. Even though EQ’d flat within +/-2dB they tend to lack in lower midrange and emphasize upper midrange. Which leads me to repeat, it is strange how different speakers can sound even though they are all tuned the same.

he RS100’s are classified as a full range speaker. I tried them full range briefly and was not very impressed with their treble presentation. It just didn’t sound as natural and detailed as a dedicated tweeter. I won’t go into much more detail here. High frequency could probably improve with heavy EQ but why force them to do something I don’t feel they are cut out for.

If you are on a very tight budget try the RS100's out. They are not the perfect midrange. But, could be tamed to work well in a system with a modest amount of EQ and sound treatments. I doubt you will find something that even comes close to these in performance for the price.

For instance, pair these with a set of eBay Alpine SPX Pro tweets and Peerless SLS6 midbasses and you'll have yourself a fairly competent 3way component set for under $250.

*Dayton Audio RS100 rating*

Tonality 2.5 of 4
Detail 3 of 4
Spaciousness 3 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 2 of 4
Dynamics 3 of 4


----------



## ocuriel

I felt the same way between the MD102 vs MT171. MT171 has a little more detail. Expected more out of the MD102 based on the hype. Both weren’t my cup of tea though.


----------



## SkizeR

Ge0 said:


> Nick,
> 
> I'm not sure what you are searching for here. I have a pretty solid test bed and have been deriving some pretty interesting results based on my SUBJECTIVE opinion.
> 
> I've already done what you suggested. My target is +/- 1dB variation throughout the midrange and treble passband. The only difference to most response curves is that I no longer tapper off the upper end as much. I'm older and my high frequency hearing response is tapering off. I posted a typical response plot above. Bass response rises 6dB 300Hz to 100Hz. Then the slope increases from 100Hz down to 20Hz.
> 
> I even used a little bit of time alignment left to right to compensate for my off center seating position and to align the sub which is sitting on the floor.


It was very literally just a statement 

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


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## Ge0

*Review: Focal Utopia M 3.5WM paired with TBXP, TBM, and Morel Supremo Piccolo.
*

























































In many musical passages I was wondering if there was somebody or some instrument actually in the room with me. THAT’S how realistic and detailed the 3.5wm midranges are. Other speakers play a sound. These envelope you in that sound. You forget you are listening to speakers. If you get distracted they can take you by surprise.

The Utopia M 3.5wm opens up another and perhaps final layer of detail out of a recording that you didn’t even know existed. Take your favorite recording on your favorite speakers. Then compare that recording played back on the 3.5wm. You will discover new characteristics about that recording that you may have never heard before.

The 3.5wm is very detailed and revealing. For instance, you can hear singers parting their lips, taking a breath, etc. Spit sizzling on the reed of a saxophone or flange of a trumpet. Fingers leaving a guitar string and the amount of force / friction involved. The 3.5wm does all of this without over emphasizing anything within the audible spectrum. Everything sounds well balanced and just right.

Another instance, some of my favorite EDM recordings really groove. A cool sonic experience. There is a lot of misc. sound going on in the background. However, you don’t focus on that because it's not relevant. You focus on the main beat. Play that same tune over on the 3.5wm’s and you realize those background sounds are actually something. A chair scooting across a hardwood floor, a goat chewing on pellets, a vacuum cleaner starting up. You hear EVERYTHING the artist intended no matter how strange.

A good example is the Song Centipede by Knife party. At the end of the song you hear some slithering, sloshing, and crunching on the Dynaudio MD102 and ScanSpeak 12m. However, listening through the Focal 3.5wm paired with the Morel Piccolo tweeter you hear insects crawling over skin while taking bites then chewing it up. A gruesome example but an accurate representation of the difference in detail.

Another example is the song Rooster by Alice In Chains (MTV Unplugged). With most systems you can hear a loose guitar string. But, with the 3.5wm you not only hear that loose string. You can hear what direction it is bouncing around. The difference is actually quite spooky. The Focal 3.5wm's can resolve that much detail.

The 3.5wm’s are awesome at imaging / staging. They are one of the few midranges I’ve heard that can create a holographic soundstage. Paired with a good set of tweeters the 3.5wm’s can position instruments and sounds in 3D space around the soundstage. Referencing Turman Green’s “Minor Blue” is a good example. Not only is that baritone sax right center, but it is about 6ft back from the trombone at left center. The piano is about 20 ft back of center. In Terry Clark’s “Molten Swing” a majority of the swing band sits back about 20ft in a large concert hall. Various soloists step forward about 10ft to play throughout the song. The big trumpet solo is the only one that comes close to true center by moving forward about 15ft.

You need to be careful with the 3.5wm’s. They are not just pick and play. If not applied properly they can sound harsh and unpleasant. You really need to take care to iron out peaks in response or they will bite. Get them as flat as possible. Also, try to feed them the best quality recordings you can. They bring out every detail. But, they also bring out every flaw and spit it back at you.

For instance, I didn’t have the frequency response of the 3.5wm’s dialed in perfectly. Listening to Monday Night Football on broadcast television was horrible with these things. The television networks jack audio levels up so their broadcast will sound OK even on cheap TV speakers. The 3.5wm’s didn’t care too much for this and let me know. After going back and tuning them flat as possible, TV broadcasts started to sound better. But, the 3.5wm’s still like to point out every flaw in audio content.

I don’t go into much song by song detail in this review. Truth be told everything I threw at these drivers that was in my listening lineup sounded fantastic. Live performances sound live. Studio recordings sound as good as you’ll ever hear them. Bad recordings. Well, they tend to sound even worse .

This is for those of you who read through this entire review and did not get your question answered. Yes, the 3.5wm’s can get [email protected] loud without too much hesitation. During my testing my Dynaudio MW162 midbass showed signs of distress before the midranges. The 3.5wm’s are not in the same league as a horn as far as being dynamic but do hold their own for a little 3” driver.

If you like a super detailed and slightly forward sounding midrange then these are most definitely for you. Even if you said “I prefer a more laid back midrange” you should try these. Perhaps your preference was stemmed from distortion heard from a more active / forward set of midranges in the past. Give the 3.5wm’s a shot if you can. You will not be disappointed.

*Focal Utopia M 3.5wm rating:*

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 4 of 4
Spaciousness 4 of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) 3.5* of 4
Dynamics 3.5 of 4

* I rated the 3.5wm's 3.5 not because of the name  but for the fact that they are so finicky to dial in. If you can do tune / tame them just right then they are an easy 4.


----------



## 6262ms3

Interesting notes on the Dayton RS100. I ran the paper cone version for awhile in my last car and found them to be fairly smooth, but a bit grainy (assuming due to their distortion characteristics). I felt the Peerless TC9 was overall much better than the RS100 Paper (and I actually liked it better than the Scanspeak 10F 8 ohm midrange as well, which had weak lower mids and very harsh upper mids). The TC9 would be a damn-near perfect mid for me if not for its low sensitivity, regardless of the low price. They do lean towards the Dynaudio smooth/dark/warm character though, which isn't for everybody (even though the M series are excellent, I'm really not a fan of the Focal sound, to each their own). The 10F was a bit cleaner, more sensitive and dynamic.

Seems like the alu version of the RS100 is a much better performer than the paper version (though I generally prefer paper cones, probably due to their 2nd order distortion characteristics).


----------



## JCsAudio

I’m enjoying reading your detailed reviews Geo and appreciate all your hard work. If you saved the measured responses in REW, or whatever RTA you’re using for each set you tested, and layered them over each other for everyone to see then I think that would help some of us understand the differences in drivers you’re hearing and assuming they are all EQ’ed to the same target curve as you noted. Most likely these differences are attributable to different distortion characteristics of each driver. 

Also, as I noted before, aluminum cone drivers (from my experience testing a few) tend to be very detailed and revealing at the expense of upper frequency response harshness (distortion) caused from the aluminum material actually ringing like a pitch fork. The only non-typical odd ball driver here that intrigues me are those XXM325 midranges, and only because that foam support behind its aluminum cone might be changing this normally predictable characteristic of aluminum cone drivers. 

You know what they say, a picture is worth a thousand words!


----------



## Ge0

ocuriel said:


> I felt the same way between the MD102 vs MT171. MT171 has a little more detail. Expected more out of the MD102 based on the hype. Both weren’t my cup of tea though.


The MD102 is a nice tweeter. Just too laid back for me. It is pretty detailed if you listen real close. But, the details are so muted you hardly hear them.


----------



## Ge0

6262ms3 said:


> Interesting notes on the Dayton RS100. I ran the paper cone version for awhile in my last car and found them to be fairly smooth, but a bit grainy (assuming due to their distortion characteristics). I felt the Peerless TC9 was overall much better than the RS100 Paper (and I actually liked it better than the Scanspeak 10F 8 ohm midrange as well, which had weak lower mids and very harsh upper mids). The TC9 would be a damn-near perfect mid for me if not for its low sensitivity, regardless of the low price. They do lean towards the Dynaudio smooth/dark/warm character though, which isn't for everybody (even though the M series are excellent, I'm really not a fan of the Focal sound, to each their own). The 10F was a bit cleaner, more sensitive and dynamic.
> 
> Seems like the alu version of the RS100 is a much better performer than the paper version (though I generally prefer paper cones, probably due to their 2nd order distortion characteristics).


One thing the RS100 Aluminum cone drivers did better than the Scan 10F's is imaging. They created a better / deeper stage than the Scans. They were also a little more detailed. Besides that, the 10F's did everything else better. I think the 10F is a better driver. But, its also 2x the cost.


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## Ge0

JCsAudio said:


> I’m enjoying reading your detailed reviews Geo and appreciate all your hard work. If you saved the measured responses in REW, or whatever RTA you’re using for each set you tested, and layered them over each other for everyone to see then I think that would help some of us understand the differences in drivers you’re hearing and assuming they are all EQ’ed to the same target curve as you noted. Most likely these differences are attributable to different distortion characteristics of each driver.
> 
> Also, as I noted before, aluminum cone drivers (from my experience testing a few) tend to be very detailed and revealing at the expense of upper frequency response harshness (distortion) caused from the aluminum material actually ringing like a pitch fork. The only non-typical odd ball driver here that intrigues me are those XXM325 midranges, and only because that foam support behind its aluminum cone might be changing this normally predictable characteristic of aluminum cone drivers.
> 
> You know what they say, a picture is worth a thousand words!


I do have screen captures of all my response curves. But, they won't all be on the same scale in the Y axis. Volume setting varied from sample to sample. Also, Y axis scaling may have been different. That might be difficult to align and get an apples to apples comparison.


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## 6262ms3

Ge0 said:


> One thing the RS100 Aluminum cone drivers did better than the Scan 10F's is imaging. They created a better / deeper stage than the Scans. They were also a little more detailed. Besides that, the 10F's did everything else better. I think the 10F is a better driver. But, its also 2x the cost.


If you ever have the chance, check out the Peerless TC9. They're dirt cheap, but have measured surprisingly well on HifiCompass and Zaph Audio. I really liked mine in my last car, apart from the low-ish sensitivity.


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## Petererc

I did some reading about ferrofluid and how it damped the tweeter. Will see if I can notice. Broke down a couple old dyn md100 and removed as much as I could get out. I am curious to see if it helps the tweeters to be more detailed. Will be a couple says before i get a chance to listen and compare to ones with ferro. 
i picked up some TC9 for cheap rear fill and was surprised. Curios as well as how they would do against the big boys.


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## Ge0

Petererc said:


> I did some reading about ferrofluid and how it damped the tweeter. Will see if I can notice. Broke down a couple old dyn md100 and removed as much as I could get out. I am curious to see if it helps the tweeters to be more detailed. Will be a couple says before i get a chance to listen and compare to ones with ferro.
> i picked up some TC9 for cheap rear fill and was surprised. Curios as well as how they would do against the big boys.


Good luck with your mad experiment...


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## squiers007

Ge0 said:


> I do have screen captures of all my response curves. But, they won't all be on the same scale in the Y axis. Volume setting varied from sample to sample. Also, Y axis scaling may have been different. That might be difficult to align and get an apples to apples comparison.


If they are all saved as REW files then you should be able to load them all and they "should" all fit to whatever x and y axis parameters you set. In addition, I'm pretty sure you can offset them if the measurements were taken at different levels so they are all at the same relative volume.

Also, thanks for taking the time to do this thorough review of so many drivers and combo's.


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## Ge0

I'll look into it some time today


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## SkizeR

Ge0 said:


> I do have screen captures of all my response curves. But, they won't all be on the same scale in the Y axis. Volume setting varied from sample to sample. Also, Y axis scaling may have been different. That might be difficult to align and get an apples to apples comparison.


this is easy to adjust. If you want, email me the file and I can do it for ya


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## Ge0

*Review: ScanSpeak Revelator 12M paired with D3004 silk textile dome tweeter*










































I went from 1 week of listening to the E430 directly to the 12M. My initial impression is the 12M has similar tonality to the E430 but has a much softer demeanor. This might not make a lot of sense but It’s like placing a layer of silk over the E430. It subdues the precision a little but places a delicate smooth layer over it. You lose some detail but gain a nice warm musical tone. The downside is that the lifelike image established due to the added detail starts to break down. Still sharp enough to make bad material stick out (like broadcast television) but much more forgiving than the Focal 3.5wm’s. 

The ScanSpeak 12M’s were my favorite midranges until recently. Now it’s more difficult to choose since I’ve had a chance to listen to 3.5WM’s, E430’s, and surprisingly enough the XXM325’s. It’s debatable which I will actually like the best in a car with all of its hard surfaces for sound to reflect off of. Maybe the Scans would be more forgiving than the 3.5WM’s in this atmosphere. Maybe the E430’s would be the perfect balance? Listening to all of them sitting on a hardwood desktop on axis it’s a tough call.

Throughout Alice in Chains "MTV Unplugged" Layne Staley’s voice seems dull and somewhat lifeless when compared to the E430’s or 3.5WM. Not what I was expecting at all. The 12M's only have 3 hours of listening time on them so let's see if this improves. The 12M’s sound better at higher volume. But at lower volume they lose a lot of detail / and tonality. This is strange. The 12M’s are a great sounding loudspeaker. It’s just the E430 and 3.5WM are that much better.

The 12M’s do sound great playing back movies and music alike. They would be a great choice for home theater but maybe not the absolute best performer for music only. It really all comes back down to personal preference.

The sax transients in Joshua Redman's “Sweet Sorrow” get muted or clipped a little. Not as much dynamic impact as the Dyn E430 or Focal 3.5WM. Again, you hear beautiful sounding music. But, some of the realism is absorbed / subdued. 

After one week listening to the 12M’s they did warm up a little revealing more detail. However, they are still a bit on the soft side. Paul Desmond's Sax on the “Time Out” album seems warm and musical using the 12M’s. West coast cool Jazz may be a good fit for this midrange.

The 12M's killed it on Chris Isaack's "Wiked Game". I would expect them to here. His voice is lush which is exactly how I would describe the 12M's tonal signature overall. The same goes for Kurt Elling during his song "In the Winelight". His voice was silky and smooth played through the 12M's.

The tom strike 6:15 into Patricia Barber’s song “Nardis” sounded a bit dull on the 12M’s whereas it jumps out at you on the E430’s and 3.5WM’s.

I found the 12M’s paired with the MD102’s to be way too laid back for my taste. Patricia Barber’s song “Nardis” had no pop. Switching back to the D3004’s it was a whole different song. It felt more lifelike and almost intimate like it does with the E430’s. 

Coming back to Alice In Chains “MTV Unplugged” one week later I still think voices and instruments are too subdued. The soundstage is there but loses the holographic feel it has with the E430’s. Also, background percussion is muted / subdued.

Switching back to the E430’s from the 12M’s was like lifting a cloth off the speaker. Although similar tonally the “airiness” returned after switching back to the E430. The minute detail was back. The acoustic guitars on “MTV Unplugged” sprung to life. Layne's voice regained its lifelike demeanor. Percussion on Patricia Barber’s song “Nardis” also livened back up. Every little detail of hi-hats, cymbals, bongos, etc…

As nice as they are, I won’t be going back to the 12M’s. They were once my favorite. But, after listening to other top tier options they are now too laid back for me.

*ScanSpeak Revelator 12M rating:*

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 3 of 4
Spaciousness 2.5 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 3.5 of 4
Dynamics 2.5 of 4


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## Ge0

SkizeR said:


> this is easy to adjust. If you want, email me the file and I can do it for ya


Nick, let me take a stab at it first. This is something I want to learn to do. I will most certainly send them to you if I can't figure it out. I at least need to get to the point where I'm throwing sh!t and swearing before I give up 😉.


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## SkizeR

Ge0 said:


> Nick, let me take a stab at it first. This is something I want to learn to do. I will most certainly send them to you if I can't figure it out. I at least need to get to the point where I'm throwing sh!t and swearing before I give up .


Or text me and we can TeamViewer and I'll show you

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


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## Ge0

*Review: ScanSpeak 10F midrange paired with D3004 silk dome midrange
























































*



I currently have 5 of these midranges mounted in my car. So, I had the unique opportunity to evaluate these drivers both in vehicle and on my test bench. Prior to starting these evaluations I was under the impression that I could buy a good / well built midrange and just “EQ” in the perfect sound. If my evaluations have shown me anything this is not the case. You can equalize two speakers' frequency response totally flat and they will still sound different. This has led me to reconsider my current install and in the process spend a ton more money than I was planning on. Oh well, let the good times roll.

The 10F was my beginning reference for these evaluations. At the time it’s all I had to go on.

I was evaluating the Dynaudio MF171 and decided to swap in my reference Scan 10F’s. I immediately noticed that the 10F’s were a lot more active and in your face. They offered greater detail. They emphasized more content in the upper midrange and were a tad bit more harsh. I checked levels with an RTA before moving on. I EQ’d the MF171 flat within +/-1dB in the 300Hz to 3KHz passband. The 10F had a +4dB wideband peak at 1.1KHz. The 10F was also considerably more sensitive than the MF171. I needed to cut gain 3 dB. I also cut -4dB at 1.1KHz with Q=2 to make the response ruler flat.

Even after equalization to match frequency response between drivers. Scan 10F emphasizes or “ brings out “ upper midrange more than the MF171. This makes it sound more lively than the MF171. The 10F also has a greater level of detail. However, it still sounds like you are listening to a set of speakers. Not as lifelike as the E430’s or 3.5WM’s. The 10F’s lack a sense of airiness and enveloping sound field. They sound a little lifeless. I attribute this to the reduced amount of detail vs. the higher end drivers.

Clapping at the beginning of the Alice In Chains song “Rooster” did not sound lifelike. Although, the guitars did sound nice and rich. Some of the undertone on Lane Staley’s voice was missing. But, the primary tone sounded nice and balanced. The 10F’s sound nice but they are not awe inspiring with their overall presentation.

Chris Isaak’s voice sounded nice tonally throughout “Wicked Game”. But, it was not silky smooth. Also, the percussion line sounded a little harsh.

The Scan 10F’s absolutely nailed the song Crumble by Calexico. Horns all sounded spot on tonally. The song had a high degree of energy as it should. Musical crescendos were hit perfectly. This can be said in general for the 10F’s. They replicate the sound of horns very nicely. Joshua Redman’s song Invocation sounded awesome played back on the 10F’s. High energy sax solo.

Michael Buble and Nelly Furtado’s voices sounded a bit stressed on “Quando Quando Quando” while listening through the 10F’s. There were periods where they seemed to distort and break up. The sax playback had a little too much high end energy. Maybe it’s just a function of the high dynamic range of the recording? Also, who listens to this "easy listening" song at high volume like me . However, this song does sound smooth as silk given the same circumstances on other midranges.

Carl Hancock Rux “Asphalt Yards” the 10F’s did not throw as wide and convincing of a sound field but did hit musical transients without issue. Carl's centered voice sounded a bit harsh at higher volumes.

The 10F’s gave Chris Cornell’s voice a nice tone in “Call me a Dog”. However, it sounded slightly stressed in the upper registers. Lower midrange was quite pleasant to listen to. His guitar had a nice and rich tone. However, you only hear primary tones and not overtones like you do in more detailed drivers. A slight bit of sibilance. They nailed his scream at 3:35 into the song rather nicely.

The 10F’s were a good pairing for the Igorrr song "Viande". Shredding screams, high intensity metal guitar riffs, etc. Here a little bit of distortion is masked by the huge and intense sound field thrown in your face.

The 10F's faired well though my ten song Patricia Barber suite. They did a decent job replicating her velvety voice and absolutely nailed her highly dynamic crescendos. It's weird. The 10F's can seem harsh and stressed where you would not expect them to but absolutely nail highly dynamic sections you would expect them to puke.

I think the 10F and MT171 tweeters are a good pairing and would be a decent budget oriented midrange and tweeter combination. That is if you can find a set of MT171’s by themselves. However, the D3004 silk is a better tweeter and I suspect it’s similar in cost to the MT171. So, a better pairing might be a Scan 10F and D3004 combo like reviewed here.

So where does that put me with the 10F? Well, if you’re on a budget they are better than a heck of alot other options out there. They are a good lower mid tier option. You can buy a set for roughly $235 shipped from Madisound. However, for just a few dollars more you can buy a set of Xcelsus XXM325’s for about $300 shipped. The XXM325 is a far superior driver in my opinion. For the minimal cost difference I have a hard time recommending the 10F’s

*ScanSpeak 10F midrange rating:*

Tonality 3 of 4
Detail 2.5 of 4
Spaciousness 2 of 4
Harshness ( lack of) 2 of 4
Dynamics 4 of 4


----------



## Ge0

*Review Brax ML3 paired with ScanSpeak D3004 and Focal TBM tweeter.*

















































See review of the ScanSpeak 12M above. The Brax ML3 may sound ever so slightly brighter than the 12M’s but for the most part sound exactly the same to me. 

Just to be certain I mounted one 12M on the left side speaker and one ML3 on the right side speaker. After a minor gain adjustment (Brax +1dB) I went about listening to music. I noticed no difference panning left to right. The same still held true downmixing stereo to mono to assure the exact same material from both sides. Still no difference panning left to right.

I wasn’t expecting this especially noting the significant design differences between drivers. But, it is what it is. I have no complaints about the Brax ML3. It doesn’t stand out above the rest but doesn’t suck either. It is a nice sounding speaker. 

Rumor has it a set of Brax ML3 drivers is about the same price as a set of ScanSpeak 12M’s. If you are looking for a mellow / laid back midrange and have the 12M on your list then maybe consider the Brax ML3. The ML3 is the smallest 3” midrange I’ve come across. It’s very shallow. I could fit into spots the 12M will not.

*Brax ML3 midrange rating:*

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 3 of 4
Spaciousness 2.5 of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) 3.5 of 4
Dynamics 2.5 of 4


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## Ge0

Almost caught up. I have about 3 tweeter reviews to post. Then onto the next round of testing...


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## SNCTMPL

This is really cool. Thank you for the hard work and time you have invested in these reviews. This is my favorite thread on the forum.🍻👍🏻🍻


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## Ge0

SNCTMPL said:


> This is really cool. Thank you for the hard work and time you have invested in these reviews. This is my favorite thread on the forum.🍻👍🏻🍻


Thank you.


----------



## Isaradia

Amazing work geo, im gunna do my best to keep you enslav.... entertained with new drivers as i can, xxt30w's your way soon hopefully, id really love for someone to send you some Blam stuff..... ill make some calls, but itll probably be out of my reach. really want to see how a d2404 or d3404 would stack up, its a shame scan dont wave guide either of them...


----------



## Ge0

Isaradia said:


> Amazing work geo, im gunna do my best to keep you enslav.... entertained with new drivers as i can, xxt30w's your way soon hopefully, id really love for someone to send you some Blam stuff..... ill make some calls, but itll probably be out of my reach. really want to see how a d2404 or d3404 would stack up, its a shame scan dont wave guide either of them...


Got some coming


----------



## Isaradia

oh **** my duck in the back of a pickup truck. was nick involved in this?


----------



## Isaradia

if it doesnt start falling off until 32k (assuming thats accurate) i bet its REAL FUGGIN IMPULSIVE up to 3k
dont make me send you a full xcelsus 3 way...


----------



## bbfoto

G, thank you for taking the time to do all of these listening tests! I know that it's been an incredibly time-consuming task...and you're still not done!!! That's A LOT of drivers!

Thankfully, it seems like you are using excellent tracks that you really enjoy for the most part, so that makes it a bit easier. But I know that it's still incredibly time consuming and difficult to do a comparative analysis and come to definitive conclusions!


Here are a few insights or comments I will contribute:

The suckout in FR at around ~100Hz is most likely an interaction/cancellation from your desk. This type of suckout around 80Hz-160Hz is common even in professional tracking and mixing studios when their monitors are placed on the "meter bridge" that spans most large mixing consoles.

You'll find that some Mastering engineers will minimize the size and height of their console, and sometimes put their necessary outboard rackmount gear in one or two lower-profile "side car" racks to avoid this issue. 

Of course, we experience similar issues in our vehicles, so it's par for the course.


IME with building and experimenting with DIY home loudspeakers, at least some of the differences in regards to a loudpseaker's Soundstage Width, Depth, Height, and Layering/3D Space & Focus presentation can be attributed to a match or mis-match in the directivity between each of the individual drive units, and of course, those effects combined with the resulting room interactions.

The dispersion characteristics or polar response of each unique drive unit come into play here, as well as the specific XOs that are used in order to integrate them, in addition to the driver ¢ to ¢ spacing, and the baffle size/shape (baffle step compensation), etc.

This is one reason I brought up the somewhat distant ¢ to ¢ spacing between the drivers on your baffles earlier in the thread, though I realize that you needed to accommodate a WIDE variety of driver shapes and sizes, and it just isn't feasible to create a special baffle for each driver combination!

I might have made the baffles as narrow as possible to fit the width of your 6x9 enclosures, and also chamfer or round-over the edges of the baffle for diffraction. But hindsight is 20/20.

With each midrange and tweeter in your test having its unique & distinct polar response (on-axis vs off-axis throughout your specified passband) there will be distinct differences in the lobing and combing effects of the paired drivers, the resulting directivity, and the diffraction off of the baffle, especially when the XOs are not individually optimized to mitigate these.

In addition to the total of the combined driver's unique polar response, these "sample-to-sample" variations can significantly alter the room interaction and its contributions at your listening position. You've got lots of fairly close reflective boundaries.

A future solution might be to place the speakers on bookshelf type stands and position them further out into the middle of the room, away from all of the reflective boundaries. 

I know that your intention was to more closely replicate the typical reflective environment in a vehicle, but for the purpose of a pure comparison of the _potential_ SQ between the different drivers (and the combinations), ideally you would mitigate those influences.

You measured the on-axis response at your listening position and tried to match and even out the response as much as possible, which is great. But I'm guessing that each combination's directivity and Off-Axis Response was quite different.

This is going to make a big difference in terms of the Direct vs Reflected energy at your listening position, and in terms of how much of the imaging cues are retained or negatively affected...as well as the tonality...

If a particular tweeter's polar response radiates the HF with more amplitude Off-Axis compared to another tweeter, the Direct *+* Reflected energy at your listening position will sum to an overall higher amplitude...i.e. a bit brighter or potentially "harsher" than the other.

This could be perceived as more detail and clarity and/or better imaging cues IF the Off-Axis response mimics or tracks the On-Axis response...or the opposite if there is a significant delta between the On- & Off-Axis amplitude.

This is why (for this test) it may have been better to pull the speakers out into the middle of the room more and further away from any reflective boundaries. But I also realize that we don't all have the ideal room or domestic option to do this.

As _SkizeR_ put it (much more succinctly!), this may be the reason for some of your impressions regarding the Soundstanging differences, as well as the tonality, and I'm willing to bet cash $$ that some of your impressions would have changed if these variables were accounted for and addressed in the physical placement, and in the optimization of the XOs for each pair via DSP (though that is an unrealistic & immense undertaking)!

It's relatively easy to measure and compare a single driver to another single driver. But any time we combine multiple drivers into a "loudspeaker system", there are many more variables to account for.

Of course, with so many different drivers in your test, I realize that it would have taken EXPONENTIALLY More Time to take all of these measurements and apply adjustments for each driver pair, and that's definitely an unrealistic expectation! But I applaud you for taking this on in the first place, AND in your willingness and time taken to share it with us! 

Of course, this becomes an entirely different animal and exponentially more difficult when moving everything to a car audio environment. Yay!  

IMHO, your testing will stand as an invaluable reference, and the information is greatly appreciated.

It helps that your impressions pretty much corroborate my own with the drivers from your test that I also have experience with...

So this helps me to put more confidence in your impressions of the drivers that I haven't used. 

While clarifying much of this might not have been necessary for many of us, I just wanted others that may read your tests and impressions to know that there are potentially several variables that may affect the ultimate outcome when using any of these drivers in their own setups, and the results could easily swing one way or the other depending on implementation. 

Thanks again!!!


----------



## Ge0

Isaradia said:


> oh **** my duck in the back of a pickup truck. was nick involved in this?


Nobody named Nick was involved...


----------



## bbfoto

Isaradia said:


> if it doesnt start falling off until 32k (assuming thats accurate) i bet its REAL FUGGIN IMPULSIVE up to 3k
> dont make me send you a full xcelsus 3 way...


While it may "play" up to 32kHz, that little midrange has an incredibly tall/large half-roll surround, akin to a subwoofer, though at subwoofer frequencies it is much less of an issue!

I would expect some significant anomolies and erratic response above the beaming point, both in the on- and off-axis response.

Though if you minimize its excursion (don't try to push it to play high SPLs below ~350Hz-300Hz), those effects should be less significant. I'd be VERY interested to see its true amplitude & polar response out to 32k...as well as IMD with a multi-tone input signal!

The response of the XXM325 gets kind of hairy above about 4.5kHz as well, but it's somewhat manageable with EQ, though not ideal. Still, I wouldn't want to use a XO much above where either starts to beam. YMMV.


----------



## Isaradia

im not implying you should use it as a tweeter, more that if the motor system is capable of 32k before drop off, ignoring cone derived issues, it should have plenty of impulse control at a realistic frequencies


----------



## SkizeR

Isaradia said:


> oh **** my duck in the back of a pickup truck. was nick involved in this?


nope. Ive yet to purchase a single BLAM speaker yet. Just planning on using them in the future once the other brands stock runs out in my shop.


----------



## Isaradia

gotcha. i very much look forward to hearing your impressions with the product line as a whole eventually, if sharing said opinion appeals to you.


----------



## tinker monkey

Funny, I have a dealer really gunning for the BLAM sig matrix. Told me that they are better than the focal or morel...more punchy...(I get nervous with the term punchy). So little reviewed on them I decided to sit on the side and wait for someone to really write about them...so happy to find this thread...


----------



## Catalyx

bbfoto said:


> While clarifying much of this might not have been necessary for many of us, I just wanted others that may read your tests and impressions to know that there are potentially a few variables that may affect the ultimate outcome when using any of these drivers in their own setups, and the results could easily swing one way or the other depending on implementation.


I love your post, it read like my thoughts on all the variables in this test I had been considering. Props to your knowledge, do you happen to be a fellow Aspie?


----------



## clange2485

Ass pie? Am i on the right web site...


----------



## clange2485

tinker monkey said:


> Funny, I have a dealer really gunning for the BLAM sig matrix. Told me that they are better than the focal or morel...more punchy...(I get nervous with the term punchy). So little reviewed on them I decided to sit on the side and wait for someone to really write about them...so happy to find this thread...



Can you go hear all 3 in person? No offense to ge0 and the great job he’s doing but we all hear differently.


----------



## tinker monkey

clange2485 said:


> Can you go hear all 3 in person? No offense to ge0 and the great job he’s doing but we all hear differently.


Wish I could. But blam dealer is 3 hrs away. Local dyn dealer has no stock. And frankly, I don’t think I could compare between 2 with a day listening in between and a different environment. The good news for me is I have all the wiring and amps in place and running stock speakers. I have the tweeters ready to install and hoping changing from stock is an upgrade at this level regardless of choice?


----------



## SkizeR

bbfoto said:


> Here are a few insights or comments I will contribute:......


All of this was the reasoning for some of my questions before. Its also the reason I will never have a demo board in my shop. Because while I do love the hell out of this thread, even this is not as apples to apples as one may think.


----------



## clange2485

I figured as much, slim chance of finding a dealer that carries all 3. I wouldn’t remember what the speakers sounded like from one place to another either and then will still sound different in your car. At least you’re ready to go, that’s awesome.


----------



## Catalyx

clange2485 said:


> Ass pie? Am i on the right web site...


Asperger's


----------



## clange2485

Oh sorry, i completely misread that.


----------



## Catalyx

No worries, it's not a widely known term yet!


----------



## bbfoto

tinker monkey said:


> Funny, I have a dealer really gunning for the BLAM sig matrix. Told me that they are better than the focal or morel...more punchy...(I get nervous with the term punchy). So little reviewed on them I decided to sit on the side and wait for someone to really write about them...so happy to find this thread...


I've mentioned this in other threads, but I'm not sure that I'm on board with the BLAM speaker designer's decision to uniquely "voice'' each of the different speaker lines to a specific "character" or spectral balance.

IMO, whether it be electronics or transducers/drivers, anything that deviates from the goal of "input signal & response = output signal & response" is a distortion of the original signal and is undesirable.

If you have a neutral or "accurate" loudspeaker, you can easily shape the tonality or spectral balance to your preference, and there are even quite easy ways to introduce specific and controlled levels of even- and/or odd-order harmonic distortion...i.e. the "warm & fuzzy" tube sound, etc.

But if you have a driver that is inherently not neutral or not "accurate", but instead has a predetermined tonal "character" and/or harmonic distortion profile, it is usually difficult to neutralize those.

For better or worse, offering a unique tonal "character" for each of their speaker lines is their main marketing schtick.

Horses for courses.


----------



## vactor

SkizeR said:


> All of this was the reasoning for some of my questions before. Its also the reason I will never have a demo board in my shop. Because while I do love the hell out of this thread, even this is not as apples to apples as one may think.


the one thing i can see a demo board being useful for in a shop could be to show how features and functions work on some processors, and to show the effects of a well tuned demo set of speakers compared to the same set without tuning. that might help showcase the value in a good DSP that is tuned by someone who knows what they are doing. but otherwise it's mostly useful for eye candy, as we all know we buy audio equipment based on how cool it looks


----------



## SkizeR

vactor said:


> the one thing i can see a demo board being useful for in a shop could be to show how features and functions work on some processors, and to show the effects of a well tuned demo set of speakers compared to the same set without tuning. that might help showcase the value in a good DSP that is tuned by someone who knows what they are doing. but otherwise it's mostly useful for eye candy, as we all know we buy audio equipment based on how cool it looks


No, that's what a demo car is for. 

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


----------



## RyuTsuiSen

vactor said:


> the one thing i can see a demo board being useful for in a shop could be to show how features and functions work on some processors, and to show the effects of a well tuned demo set of speakers compared to the same set without tuning. that might help showcase the value in a good DSP that is tuned by someone who knows what they are doing. but otherwise it's mostly useful for eye candy, as we all know we buy audio equipment based on how cool it looks


Flames = faster cone = more SPL









Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

Catalyx said:


> Asperger's





clange2485 said:


> Ass pie? Am i on the right web site...


No, Hamburgers.


----------



## vactor

SkizeR said:


> No, that's what a demo car is for.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


ideally, yes. so long as it is in the shop and working. i am pretty sure that that isn't a concern in your shop, but i cannot tell you how rare it is to go to a "reputable shop" that sells high end stuff and they don't have a demo car that is available and up and running. just saying, that is a place where a demo board can showcase (even minimally) the value of dsp and tuning.


----------



## Isaradia

ex's shop doesnt have a demo car, they have 3 planned, but not the time to build them


----------



## bbfoto

vactor said:


> the one thing i can see a demo board being useful for in a shop could be to show how features and functions work on some processors, and to show the effects of a well tuned demo set of speakers compared to the same set without tuning. that might help showcase the value in a good DSP that is tuned by someone who knows what they are doing. but otherwise it's mostly useful for eye candy, as we all know we buy audio equipment based on how cool it looks


Agreed...I could see this being very useful to demonstrate how you can create an excellent center image and focused L-to-R Soundstage using a DSP's T/A & EQ by having the customer sit off-center to the L&R speakers on the demo board, as they would in their actual vehicle.

An "On and OFF" comparison would be extremely revealing, at least to the uninitiated customer who doesn't understand the value of a DSP.

I would think that a Demo Board would be A LOT easier than the custom installation that'd be necessary to install two completely different sets of speakers in that vehicle.

This could drive additional sales of equipment and installation...i.e. "well, to do this, you'll need the DSP and additional amplifiers for each speaker channel.

Of course, the usefulness of this would depend on the experience of your base or typical clientele.

Don't want to continue here too far off-topic, but I do still think a demo board has its value.

Just one example, Steve (_Captainobvious_) essentially has a demo board at home to evaluate and test heaps of potential drive units. But he also understands the limitations or variables of such a setup and how to interpret the results.



SkizeR said:


> No, that's what a demo car is for.


But in a vehicle, you can't _easily_ demonstrate the _relative_ differences in price/quality between the different speaker brands and lines that you carry...unless you have a vehicle for each.

Sure, you might install the two main speaker lines or tiers that you carry in your vehicle, but that's fairly limiting. And IMO, in terms of fabrication/installation/wiring, that'd be a huge PITA.

And, yes, a great sounding Demo Vehicle is still a must, especially to show off your fabrication and installation skills along with the SQ.


----------



## tinker monkey

bbfoto said:


> I've mentioned this in other threads, but I'm not sure that I'm on board with the BLAM speaker designer's decision to uniquely "voice'' each of the different speaker lines to a specific "character" or spectral balance.
> 
> IMO, whether it be electronics or transducers/drivers, anything that deviates from the goal of "input signal & response = output signal & response" is a distortion of the original signal and is undesirable.
> 
> If you have a neutral or "accurate" loudspeaker, you can easily shape the tonality or spectral balance to your preference, and there are even quite easy ways to introduce specific and controlled levels of even- and/or odd-order harmonic distortion...i.e. the "warm & fuzzy" tube sound, etc.
> 
> But if you have a driver that is inherently not neutral or not "accurate", but instead has a predetermined tonal "character" and/or harmonic distortion profile, it is usually difficult to neutralize those.
> 
> For better or worse, offering a unique tonal "character" for each of their speaker lines is their main marketing schtick.
> 
> Horses for courses.


I didn’t know that was their schtick. I thought it was just marketing “French” sound whatever that means. It sure sounds unappealing but maybe it’s just marketing and they sound great. They have to make up for that blam name. Anyways, I’m eager to hear Geos take on them.. even just initial impressions.


----------



## Isaradia

ive known some industry vets to think highly of them, which is why im curious


----------



## clange2485

I hear some alarms going off.


----------



## Ge0

Seems to be a lot of opinions floating around here tonight. So be it. I'm just going to screw with some speakers.


----------



## Granite

Regardless of how close the apples are to each other, we do get one constant: ge0. 

And this is helpful because if you read this entire thread, you begin to get a feel for what ge0’s preferences are, and in turn, you can make estimations on what his words would translate to in real life. 

Other review websites like stereophile or worse, Amazon, are loaded with reviews of drivers, but they’re coming from untold reviewers - all with different ears.

Further, ge0 has inevitably described at least one driver you’ve heard before, and based on that, you can approximate what he’s getting at with all the rest. For me, that’s as close to paying the price and evaluating them myself as I’m gonna get. 

And that’s why we are all here. I could read these reviews every day. Keep em coming ge0.


----------



## Catalyx

Granite said:


> Further, ge0 has inevitably described at least one driver you’ve heard before, and based on that, you can approximate what he’s getting at with all the rest. For me, that’s as close to paying the price and evaluating them myself as I’m gonna get.
> 
> And that’s why we are all here. I could read these reviews every day. Keep em coming ge0.


I'm feeding him a steady diet of drivers to review so this won't end soon unless he runs out of time to do it. We should probably crowdfund him for the effort!


----------



## Ge0

Catalyx said:


> I'm feeding him a steady diet of drivers to review so this won't end soon unless he runs out of time to do it. We should probably crowdfund him for the effort!


We have a boat load of Audio Development and some Flux drivers coming up.


----------



## JCsAudio

You must have limitless cash Ge0. 🤑


----------



## Catalyx

JCsAudio said:


> You must have limitless cash Ge0. 🤑


He's borrowing, not buying!


----------



## Isaradia

i can sent drivers, or cash, but not both, as i buy the drivers i send him lol


----------



## Ge0

Catalyx said:


> He's borrowing, not buying!


Dude, we are in a competition. We are both buying a sh!t ton of speakers


----------



## RTB

Thanks a lot for this. Cheaper to read all of the posts than pay for the first hand experience. 

Currently have a simple 2way powered (75x4) Alpine SPS 610c/coax + ILX 207 setup and just picked up a Helix Ultra in preparation to go 3 way active by Summer.


----------



## Ge0

RTB said:


> Thanks a lot for this. Cheaper to read all of the posts than pay for the first hand experience.
> 
> Currently have a simple 2way powered (75x4) Alpine SPS 610c/coax + ILX 207 setup and just picked up a Helix Ultra in preparation to go 3 way active by Summer.


Well, the Helix is definitely a good start. Not screwing around there now are ya


----------



## Ge0

Here is what is on tap for this week. I'm thinking I will pair them with the Piccolos to start.


----------



## Ge0

OK. I can't find a setting anywhere that allows me to normalize each individual trace. What do I do next?


----------



## Niebur3

I should send you the esa mids I have to also listen to.


----------



## JCsAudio

Catalyx said:


> He's borrowing, not buying!





Ge0 said:


> OK. I can't find a setting anywhere that allows me to normalize each individual trace. What do I do next?
> View attachment 300484
> 
> View attachment 300486


When I level matched mine I go to each one separately and adjust the db level until it matches up to the one I want it to (baseline). You can do this for all of them individually but that is going to be some work. After I adjust each one so they are all the same I then click on all SPL and they should all be matched to the same level.

I’m sure @SkizeR could help you/do it much faster or better.


----------



## Ge0

Niebur3 said:


> I should send you the esa mids I have to also listen to.


Catalyx is sending me a pair next week. Sit back and enjoy...


----------



## Ge0

JCsAudio said:


> When I level matched mine I go to each one separately and adjust the db level until it matches up to the one I want it to (baseline). You can do this for all of them individually but that is going to be some work. After I adjust each one so they are all the same I then click on all SPL and they should all be matched to the same level.
> 
> I’m sure @SkizeR could help you/do it much faster or better.


I talked to Nick. It was right in front of me all the time...


----------



## bbfoto

Ge0 said:


> Here is what is on tap for this week. I'm thinking I will pair them with the Piccolos to start.


Will be interested in your impressions of these in direct comparison to the others.

I listened to a MECA SQ system in a Tesla S a while back that used the AD MM4 in the top corner dash locations along with the AD tweeters in OEM A-pillar location and W800NEO in doors. All powered & tuned using a Helix V8 DSP/amp. Sealed Dayton Reference RSS 15" sub in rear...not sure about sub amp.

Tonality, L/R soundstage & imaging & up-front bass were all very nice, as well as decent dynamics. The Depth/Layering and image focus could have been better, but I didn't have anything to do with the tuning, so not sure if that could've been improved or not given the setup.

Unfortunately, the only familiar track of my own that I had time to demo was "Dub in a Time of Cholera" by Dub Colossus. The system handled it pretty well and even the owner was impressed.

Overall I felt there was still a bit left on the table in terms of dynamics, soundstage & image _focus, _depth, & ambience compared to how that track is presented in my own systems using either the 3.5WM & XXM325 mids, but it was certainly an enjoyable listen and could get down & boogie when cranked up and bring a smile to your face.


----------



## Ge0

Here ya go. Thirty measurements over 6 months overlaid:









You'll see some variation in the bass / midbass range because I changed rigs back in December and was dialing bass response in.

Also, I don't bother trying to tune much out past 18KHz. That fluctuates wildly and I can't hear up that high anyway.


----------



## Ge0

I just found these. So, I guess they will go under test first with the matching midrange.


----------



## bbfoto

Ge0 said:


> Here ya go. Thirty measurements over 6 months overlaid:
> View attachment 300504
> 
> 
> You'll see some variation in the bass / midbass range because I changed rigs back in December and was dialing bass response in.
> 
> Also, I don't bother trying to tune much out past 18KHz. That fluctuates wildly and I can't hear up that high anyway.


Thanks for the measurements.

Yeah, that ~110Hz dip/cancellation is definitely an issue and would be easily audible especially with the corresponding peaks on either side of it...lower male vocals and acoustic/electric walking bass lines, etc... and the differences in the ~135Hz-200Hz region, as well as 40Hz. Otherwise its reasonably consistent (on-axis).

Nice that you have the AD MM1 tweeters, too. 👍

Don't know where you find the time, mate!!?


----------



## Ge0

bbfoto said:


> Thanks for the measurements.
> 
> Yeah, that ~110Hz dip/cancellation is definitely an issue and would be easily audible especially with the corresponding peaks on either side of it...lower male vocals and acoustic/electric walking bass lines, etc... and the differences in the ~135Hz-200Hz region, as well as 40Hz. Otherwise its reasonably consistent (on-axis).
> 
> Nice that you have the AD MM1 tweeters, too. 👍
> 
> Don't know where you find the time, mate!!?


There is also a +15dB peak at 15Hz that I tamed using a few parametric EQ filters. If you look at that suck out without smoothing is is fairly narrow and deep. I don't try to fix that.

I turn off all speakers except 1 midbass. I can place the mic 4" from the midbass and the anomalies go away. However, if I back the microphone up 12" I get the nasty dip then peak. It not due to speaker to speaker interaction. It is due to the table as you suggested earlier. It gets a little better if I sit the midbasses on top of the tweet / midrange cabinet. But, it does not go away.

I've noticed a lot of folks sitting their speakers on 12" stands on their table tops. But, I don't want to do this. I'm trying to work with my environment like I would in car.

I don't have a lot of time to work on this. That's why I am just posting stuff I started back in October 2020 .


----------



## Ge0

*Review: Audio Development MM4 midrange with MM1 and Morel Piccolo tweeters.*



































































*WOW!!! *

To be perfectly honest I wasn’t expecting much. I thought this was just another set of flashy looking speakers that would perform mediocre. The tweeter is small and basic. The midrange looks like a flying saucer from a 1950’s horror film. However, right out of the box with minimum EQ applied I was like WOW!!! Man was I wrong.

I am going to abbreviate the Audio Development MM4 and MM1 combo and call them the “AD duo”. Their tonality is on the warm / forward side compared to even the Focal Utopia. But, it is very well balanced and enjoyable to listen to.

The best way to describe the AD duo is sharp, crisp, and accurate but not quite surgical. They shredded the new Gojira song “Amazonia”. The song was dynamic and crisp. However, I did sense a little bit of harshness when getting rowdy with the volume .

I listened to many technical tracks I have to judge the spatial properties of the AD duo. They do create a shallow 3D space and position instruments very well. But, only in a few defined layers. The AD duo is close to the best but not quite there. They would need to generate better depth.

One thing I noticed throughout many songs I listened to was that the AD duo was bursting with detail. However, they are a little too forward. They played back Calexico’s “Crumble, Dub Latina, and El Picador'' with laser-like precision. But, seemed a little too forced. This was obvious in the last song of my Calexico set “Fade”. This song should be subdued and laid back. Although bursting with detail and correct in tonality the song sounded too energetic when played back through the AD duo. Instead of sounding sleepy and subdued it sounded like my son with ADHD off his meds shouting and bouncing off the walls. Well, maybe not that dramatic, but, at no time during playback did I feel restful like the song intends.

The AD duo has a wonderful tonality that seems to accentuate the middle of the midrange section. They do not sound as lush as the E430’s paired with the Piccolo’s.

The AD duo played Patricia Barber's “Nardis” piano solo with lightning precision. However, I prefer the song a little softer / lush as her fingers float off the keys. The AD duo absolutely crushed the drum solo starting minute marker 5:00. The climax at 7:22 was no exception. They are very good at that. Highly dynamic.

Travis Meeks' voice sounded a little sharp in the Days of the New song “Face of the Earth”. Guitars sounded rich and razer crisp. The percussion was a tad harsh.

In Harry Connick’s song “Nowhere With Love” instruments sound perfect. However, I felt Harry’s voice contained too much upper midrange. His voice should sound lush and smooth. However, it sounded a little sharp.

Igorrr is an artist who likes to mash classic instruments like sitar and accordion with Italian opera and hard driving metal guitar and drum beats. It’s absolutely crazy and chaotic music but Igorrr pulls it off with some polish. The AD duo absolutely nailed this test. High dynamics, crisp hard driving beats, finesse in the opening sitar solo in “Downgrade Dessert”, and produced the female opera singers vocals without too much of a bite in “Cheval”. 

The AD duo soaked up the wall of rampage, hate, and fury produced by Gojira’s song “Love”. You could hear every beat of the driving double kick drum. Mario’s snares and cymbal crashes could be heard crystal clear even over the wailing guitar riffs and Joe’s growling angst filled voice. Mario's stick work at the end of the song sounded detailed and lifelike. The AD duo is a metal heads dream short of going to horns.

Stepping away from metal and onto some big band swing. Terry Clark’s Molten swing was also a treat. The band is set back and somewhat subdued. Every once in a while the trumpet section peaks fairly loud. Including a trumpet solo at minute marker 2:32. The AD duo nailed the dynamics from soft to blaring.

The AD duo did an awesome job playing back the Popof’s EDM tune “The Striker”. Sound effects were clear and concise. You could easily make out the detail over the hard driving bass beat. Another strong point for the AD duo.

I experimented a little with my EQ settings after listening to many songs and hearing a bit of harshness. During setup I had to boost 1.2KHz and 2KHz 4dB to flatten out midrange response. Dropping both -3dB helped with vocal harshness but made some instruments sound dull. I ended up reducing each boost by -2dB to strike a happy medium.

Next up was an instrumental song “Acid Jazz Brooklyn Funk Esse”. The song primarily consists of an opening piano solo followed up by a long warm and lush trumpet solo. Precision and minimal percussion sits in the background adding ambience and keeping time. This song sounds awesome on the E430’s paired with the Piccolo’s. Even the Focal 3.5wm and TBM combo replicate the song with all the beauty that was intended. However, it sounded forced and unnatural when played back with the AD duo. Don’t get me wrong, the song still sounded great. It just didn’t flow with the ease I know it should. It’s like you couldn’t relax to it with the AD duo.

I have never heard Tool’s song “Chocolate Chip Trip” played back as well as with the AD duo. All sounds and effects were laser focused and precisely placed in 2D space. There was perfect tonality on each sound throughout the song. The drum beats hit with incredible dynamic impact for a 4” midrange and 1” domed tweet. The Stevens audio HCLD’s could easily beat the AD’s in dynamics but not accuracy and clarity.

Chris Cornell’s Song “Season’s” is recorded “hot” to begin with and is difficult for a pair of loudspeakers to play back with finesse. I actually stopped listening to it with the AD duo. Tones were just too sharp and piercing. The recording itself was not a good match for a playback device with similar “hot” characteristics. The AD duo did better playing back “Call me a Dog”. Chris’s voice did get a little harsh at times. But, considering the “hot” characteristics of the recording they didn’t do too bad.

I’m going to round this review up with studio recordings.

The first from Maggie Koerner. Her songs “Cayute Woman” and “Trees in a line”. These songs sounded darn near magical with the AD duo. There are no spatial depth cues in these songs. Just pure tonality, detail, and dynamics. The AD duo replicated these songs with the gritty passion I believe was intended. Maggie's voice was perfect. You could tell the drums were mic’d and recorded separate. Guitar and bass lines flowed powerfully to carry the body of the music. You could tell the recording was done on a budget. You could hear the hums and buzzes from silent amps in quiet passages. If you sit and take it in it is an emotional experience.

One of my new “go to” recordings is from the Mighty Sam McClain and his tune “When the Hurt is Over”. The AD duo played his voice back with authority and power. A majority of the backing piano did not float off the keys like it should and seemed a little forced. But, the percussion, guitar, and bass lines were spot on.

So this leaves me in a funny predicament with the AD duo. They excel with a lot of music. But can fall flat on their face with others. For the most part they are very pleasing to listen to. But, they can get harsh and bite. I've shown to some extent that you can filter out some harshness with EQ. If you were patient enough you could probably make these suckers really sing with a few minor adjustments. But, that is outside my scope for now. My goal is to set them flat and see what you get in comparison to others. I definitely think the AD duo combo has some serious potential.

The downside is I have no idea how much these cost retail so can't offer any sort of value proposition.

*Rating AD MM4 midrange with the MM1 tweeters.*

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 4 of 4
Spaciousness 3.5 of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) 3 of 4
Dynamics 4 of 4

*GAME CHANGER!!!*


















Going back to evaluate the MM4 midrange with a more forgiving and balanced tweeter lead to a major improvement in overall performance. This midrange now holds its own with the best. Every track I said sounded forced or harsh in my earlier review is now much more tolerable. The MM4 is still more "lively" than the E430 or even the 3.5wm. But it has it's own space among the top contenders. 

Paired with the Piccolo it also presented the best 3D holographic image I have heard so far. Almost perfect positioning of sounds in 3D space given a recording that supports this. At the very least equivalent or better than the 3.5wm and E430. If the MM4 had a softer voicing and was not so active and "in your face" it would be my top pick.

I don't consider the Piccolo a dynamic tweeter at all. But paired with the MM4 the combo stuck with some tough tests and still scored top tier. This goes to show that this silver plastic UFO looking midrange can kick some serious @ss. As awkward as it is, it still hold some top honors...

As far as the MM1 tweeter, I suspect it's going to be harsh. But, I will need to do a separate review to find out.

*Rating AD MM4 midrange with Morel Piccolo tweeter*

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 4 of 4
Spaciousness 4 of 4
Harshness (lack of ) 3.5 of 4
Dynamics 4 of 4


----------



## DiamondFanatic

Ge0 thanks so much for sharing all of this with everyone! I really enjoyed your thoughts on the Focal WM and Xcelsus and look forward to reading about the AD setup.

Do you happen to have any of the Morel mids slated for this test? Selfishly curious how something like the new Elate Carbon MM3 with Piccolo would compare to some of your other highlights.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

Amazing content!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ge0

DiamondFanatic said:


> Ge0 thanks so much for sharing all of this with everyone! I really enjoyed your thoughts on the Focal WM and Xcelsus and look forward to reading about the AD setup.
> 
> Do you happen to have any of the Morel mids slated for this test? Selfishly curious how something like the new Elate Carbon MM3 with Piccolo would compare to some of your other highlights.


Yes, I have a set of Morel MM3's coming in soon. Working this AD combo over pretty good right now. It's nice.


----------



## DiamondFanatic

Ge0 said:


> Yes, I have a set of Morel MM3's coming in soon. Working this AD combo over pretty good right now. It's nice.


Awesome!!

I saw some of those AD mids in the classifieds and was very tempted by them. However, I ran Supremos with Elates a long time ago and they were my favorite so I have been aiming to do another Morel setup (likely with Piccolos) for the next new set I purchase. The Focals of course are impossible to ignore with all the comments on here...

Thanks again! Looking forward to reading more


----------



## bbfoto

Ge0 said:


> *Review: Audio Development MM4 midrange with MM1 tweeter*
> ....
> 
> *WOW!!! *
> 
> Full review to come.


Dooood! That heading says, "*Review*"! WTH? Can't be messin' with a brotha' like that! 


Haha, I thought you might like these.  As I said, that Tesla with the AD setup was really nice. The few things that I called out about it I felt could probably be rectified with a bit more fine tuning and some work on the install (deadening). 

Even still, it brought the SQ bizness and was a fun listen. That _Dub Colossus_ track revealed a few door and panel resonances that the owner hadn't encountered before, haha. And those did have a negative effect on tonality, staging/imaging cues, and dynamics.

A bit of work there, and a few tweaks with the DSP, and I could've definitely lived with that setup.

As always, looking forward to your *real* review of the ADs, and the others as well.


----------



## Ge0

bbfoto said:


> Dooood! That heading says, "*Review*"! WTH? Can't be messin' with a brotha' like that!
> 
> 
> Haha, I thought you might like these.  As I said, that Tesla with the AD setup was really nice. The few things that I called out about it I felt could probably be rectified with a bit more fine tuning and some work on the install (deadening).
> 
> Even still, it brought the SQ bizness and was a fun listen. That _Dub Colossus_ track revealed a few door and panel resonances that the owner hadn't encountered before, haha. And those did have a negative effect on tonality, staging/imaging cues, and dynamics.
> 
> A bit of work there, and a few tweaks with the DSP, and I could've definitely lived with that setup.
> 
> As always, looking forward to your *real* review of the ADs, and the others as well.


Go back and take a peek. Review updated...


----------



## THX0849

Amazing reviews, so interesting to read your results and go back and try to hear what your hearing with the tracks. Thank you again from so many of us for your time and dedication to this!!!

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## Elektra

@geo are you going to consolidate all the reviews and play them into tiers etc...

Sifting through 500 posts to see a specific review is tedious...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elektra

Someone should donate a set of GB10 and 25’s and let’s see how they stack up to what’s on test so far...

Also a Brax ML1....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## clange2485

I’d like to see how the 10/25’s compare as well. I doubt there going to be anywhere close to the focals/ect.. but it would interesting to see where they land. I have a set of gb15’s i can send over if you want something else to play with.


----------



## Ge0

Elektra said:


> @geo are you going to consolidate all the reviews and play them into tiers etc...
> 
> Sifting through 500 posts to see a specific review is tedious...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I apply a rating to each driver review. I have no plans to go back and consolidate. If someone else wants to do this that is fine.

I don't know if it is possible to keep my reviews up front. I post a review and inevitably folks are going to post messages afterwards. This thread is going to get cluttered. It's an open forum. Folks can come in and hold full blown conversations in this thread (cluttering it up) if they want to.


----------



## Elektra

Ge0 said:


> I apply a rating to each driver review. I have no plans to go back and consolidate. If someone else wants to do this that is fine.
> 
> I don't know if it is possible to keep my reviews up front. I post a review and inevitably folks are going to post messages afterwards. This thread is going to get cluttered. It's an open forum. Folks can come in and hold full blown conversations in this thread (cluttering it up) if they want to.


Yeah it would be nice if it sort of stays as like a sticky at the beginning of thread so people can go directly to them and see which ever one they interested in...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Catalyx

*Focal Utopia TBXP beryllium dome tweeter paired with 3.5wm midrange*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *4* of 4​Spaciousness *4* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4​Dynamics *3.5* of 4​
*Stevens Audio CompNeo HLCD compression horns paired with Focal 3.5wm*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3* of 4​Spaciousness *4* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3* of 4​Dynamics *11* of 4​
*Morel Supremo Piccolo tweeter paired with Focal Utopia 3.5wm midrange*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *4* of 4​Spaciousness *4* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *4* of 4​Dynamics *3* of 4​
*Focal Utopia M TBM Beryllium dome tweeter paired with 3.5wm midrange*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *4* of 4​Spaciousness *3.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *4* of 4​Dynamics *3.5* of 4​
*Xcelsus XXT30 tweeter paired with Brax ML3, Focal 3.5wm midrange, and Xcelsus XXM325 midrange*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3.5* of 4​Spaciousness *3.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4​Dynamics *3* of 4​
*Xcelsus XXM325 midrange paired with XXT30 and Focal Utopia TBM tweeters*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3.5* of 4​Spaciousness *3.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4​Dynamics *3.5* of 4​
*Dynaudio MF171 Midrange paired with MT171 tweeter and ScanSpeak D3004 Silk tweeter*

Tonality *3* of 4​Detail *2* of 4​Spaciousness *2* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4​Dynamics *2.5* of 4​
*Dynaudio MT171 paired with Focal 3.5wm and Xcelsus XXM325 midranges*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3* of 4​Spaciousness *2.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3* of 4​Dynamics *3* of 4​
*Stevens Audio Soft Dome Tweeter paired with Focal Utopia 3.5wm midranges*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3.5* of 4​Spaciousness *2.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3* of 4​Dynamics *3.5* of 4​
*Focal Utopia M TBM Beryllium dome tweeter paired with 3.5wm midrange - Revision 2*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *4* of 4​Spaciousness *3.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *4* of 4​Dynamics *3.5* of 4​
*Dayton Audio RS100 midrange paired with ScanSpeak D3004 silk dome tweeter*

Tonality *2.5* of 4​Detail *3* of 4​Spaciousness *3* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *2* of 4​Dynamics *3* of 4​
*Focal Utopia M 3.5WM paired with TBXP, TBM, and Morel Supremo Piccolo*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *4* of 4​Spaciousness *4* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4​Dynamics *3.5* of 4​
*ScanSpeak Revelator 12M paired with D3004 silk textile dome tweeter*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3* of 4​Spaciousness *2.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4​Dynamics *2.5* of 4​
*ScanSpeak 10F midrange paired with D3004 silk dome midrange*

Tonality *3* of 4​Detail *2.5* of 4​Spaciousness *2* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *2* of 4​Dynamics *4* of 4​
*Brax ML3 paired with ScanSpeak D3004 and Focal TBM tweeter*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3* of 4​Spaciousness *2.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4​Dynamics *2.5* of 4​
*Audio Development MM4 midrange with MM1 tweeters*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *4* of 4​Spaciousness *3.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3* of 4​Dynamics *4* of 4​


----------



## SkizeR

The Audio Development MM1 has an MSRP of $799. MM4 has an MSRP of $1099


----------



## Ge0

Elektra said:


> Yeah it would be nice if it sort of stays as like a sticky at the beginning of thread so people can go directly to them and see which ever one they interested in...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How do we do a sticky? Good idea.


----------



## seafish

Ge0 said:


> How do we do a sticky? Good idea.


Prolly the easiest way would be for you to copy Catalyx's index post above and then use the edit function in your very first post to paste it at the end of that original post.

just an idea ?!!


----------



## Ge0

The Audio Development MM4 review was just updated. Check it out....


----------



## Ge0

seafish said:


> Prolly the easiest way would be for you to copy Catalyx's index post above and then use the edit function in your very first post to paste it at the end of that original post.
> 
> just an idea ?!!


No. I want to sticky my actual reviews so they all show up first in this entire thread. It's now 30pages long with reviews spread throughout. Most of this is just chat...


----------



## Catalyx

That would a great feature but I don't know if the platform supports it. In the meantime I figured I would update it periodically when enough new reviews and comments have accrued to be worth it.


----------



## seafish

Ge0 said:


> I want to sticky my actual reviews so they all show up first in this entire thread. It's now 30pages long with reviews spread throughout. Most of this is just chat...



Yes that is more or less exactly what I suggested that you do but with out the sticky part by utilize and quoting Catalyx post since he already indexed them with links to the actual review under the title and the links he posted takes one to the actual review post.

Of course you could still index them yourself and edit your first post to include the links like he did if for some reason you don't want to include his name in a quote, which he only barely deserves for helping you and all of us out ... LOL!!!


----------



## Catalyx

seafish said:


> Yes that is more or less exactly what I suggested that you do but with out the sticky part by utilize and quoting Catalyx post since he already indexed them with links to the actual review under the title and the links he posted takes one to the actual review post.
> 
> Of course you could still index them yourself and edit your first post to include the links like he did if for some reason you don't want to include his name in a quote, which he only barely deserves for helping you and all of us out ... LOL!!!


Whatever works best, though Ge0 is spending enough time already and shouldn't have any more tasks. A good portion of the drivers being tested were loaned by me so I helped a bit more than consolidating links but don't care about credit and it'd be better not to quote my post. I have the BB code version as a text file for whoever wants it though I just installed Tapatalk to see what the post looks like on that and the [/INDENT] code behind each "of 4" is showing as #8203; instead of creating indents. I only use the web for this site, does anyone know how to make that work?


----------



## Ge0

seafish said:


> Yes that is more or less exactly what I suggested that you do but with out the sticky part by utilize and quoting Catalyx post since he already indexed them with links to the actual review under the title and the links he posted takes one to the actual review post.
> 
> Of course you could still index them yourself and edit your first post to include the links like he did if for some reason you don't want to include his name in a quote, which he only barely deserves for helping you and all of us out ... LOL!!!


I didn't realize each review was hyperlinked in his post. That's neat 🤗


----------



## Ge0

Catalyx said:


> I have the BB code version as a text file for whoever wants it though I just installed Tapatalk to see what the post looks like on that and the [/INDENT] code behind each "of 4" is showing as #8203; instead of creating indents. I only use the web for this site, does anyone know how to make that work?


I have no idea what you just said...


----------



## Ge0

Catalyx said:


> Whatever works best, though Ge0 is spending enough time already and shouldn't have any more tasks. A good portion of the drivers being tested were loaned by me so I helped a bit more than consolidating links but don't care about credit and it'd be better not to quote my post. I have the BB code version as a text file for whoever wants it though I just installed Tapatalk to see what the post looks like on that and the [/INDENT] code behind each "of 4" is showing as #8203; instead of creating indents. I only use the web for this site, does anyone know how to make that work?


I copied your links and pasted them into my first post.


----------



## ezmason

SkizeR said:


> The Audio Development MM1 has an MSRP of $799. MM4 has an MSRP of $1099


https://www.rgsound.it/thumbs/2520x1680xfar0/ad-audio-development-ad-mm3-pid-17285.jpg You can get the 3way set through rg sound with crossover for $2200 plus shipping


----------



## SkizeR

ezmason said:


> https://www.rgsound.it/thumbs/2520x1680xfar0/ad-audio-development-ad-mm3-pid-17285.jpg You can get the 3way set through rg sound with crossover for $2200 plus shipping


And play the lottery on getting hit with importing fees, no warranty (which you most likely will need for these tweeters unfortunately), no support, etc

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


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## Ge0

I was going to try this driver next. But, it has really funky mounting tabs. I'm going to need to wait until I can make an adapter. Moving onto the BLAM's...


----------



## JCsAudio

Couldn’t resist.


----------



## DaveG

Any idea why the AD is offset to the mounts? Will it fit where a conventional 3.5” will?


----------



## Catalyx

I wondered the same thing when I got those but never got around to testing their fitment. The ESA mids I sent him just arrived so that review should come soon.


----------



## Ge0

DaveG said:


> Any idea why the AD is offset to the mounts? Will it fit where a conventional 3.5” will?


No and No


----------



## DaveG

Ge0 said:


> No and No


Baffled! Literally!


----------



## Ge0

BLAM!!! A little bit of fashion design oversight. The gold 3" driver absolutely clashes with the silver tweet? I'm German, is that a French thing ?









A few things I do appreciate about these drivers. The person who built and tested them signs and dates the box. In addition, you get full set of test and measurement "birth" sheets for your particular drivers. Now that is useful and classy. I wish more companies who charge a left testicle for their drivers did this. How hard could it be? They have the data. Just print a few sheets of paper...


----------



## DaveG

Ge0 said:


> BLAM!!!
> View attachment 301108


Hate to sound superficial but why must they brand them? It would have to be stealth for me! Are those from the same series? I’m not familiar.


----------



## Ge0

DaveG said:


> Hate to sound superficial but why must they brand them? It would have to be stealth for me! Are those from the same series? I’m not familiar.


Yes. They are both from the Multix Signature Series. The MS3 is intended to be a full range (meh) so maybe adding the tweet was an afterthought?


----------



## Ge0

This is rather interesting.

MS3 and TSM25 frequency response:









MS3 Full range frequency response:









I'll be [email protected] if this little 3" driver does not extend well out to 20KHz. Although, early impressions say perhaps it should not. Treble content is there. But...


----------



## Isaradia

a fullrange is still not close to having the detail of a _good_ tweeter, methinks


----------



## Ge0

Isaradia said:


> a fullrange is still not close to having the detail of a _good_ tweeter, methinks


You are not alone in this opinion.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

Wow, this is nice! 
Geo nice work!


----------



## bbfoto

Ge0 said:


> This is rather interesting.
> 
> MS3 and TSM25 frequency response:
> View attachment 301114
> 
> 
> MS3 Full range frequency response:
> View attachment 301115
> 
> 
> I'll be [email protected] if this little 3" driver does not extend well out to 20KHz. Although, early impressions say perhaps it should not. Treble content is there. But...


I'll agree that is impressive FR. But what will be more important is its off-axis response above its physical beaming point. If it still closely tracks and follows the on-axis response with a gradual and smooth roll-off out to ~60° off-axis, that will really be impressive.

Looks like it might have a little cone/surround breakup around ~3.8kHz which would be expected. An impedance graph might give more insight overall, but not sure how deep you're willing to dive here.


----------



## Ge0

bbfoto said:


> I'll agree that is impressive FR. But what will be more important is its off-axis response above its physical beaming point. If it still closely tracks and follows the on-axis response with a smooth roll-off out to ~60° off-axis, that will really be impressive.


Good point ole chap! I'll need to take those measurements.


----------



## Ge0

*Review BLAM MS3 midrange and TSM25 tweeter, MS3 full range, and MS3 with Focal Utopia M TBM tweeter.*

















































The BLAM’s voicing is biased towards the upper midrange. This makes them sound a little thinner and more forward.

My very first song was Maggie Koerner’s “Trees In A Line”. Her voice sounded harsh and continued to get worse as I turned the volume up. Hmm. Strange. Let’s move on...

The same was true with piano in Patricia Barber’s song “Nardis”. Certain notes were just harsh and annoying.

Chris Cornell’s “Season’s” was a sizzling screeching mess. So I stopped.

Decided to look into this. It was not worth continuing on with the evaluation with this harsh behavior. I looked through the raw un-filtered and non-averaged data. I noticed two peaks between 2KHz and 3KHz. So, I added a -4dB notch filter at 2.5KHz with Q=2.5. This seemed to tame the midranges down some at the expense of some detail. This tune could use more work but is a good start.
Normally I just review speakers exactly how they stand after being tuned flat. However, the peaking between 2KHz and 3KHz was just down right annoying me to the point where I did not want to continue. So, I left the notch filter active.

Harry Conick’s voice in “Nowhere With Love” went from sharp to smooth. This is a good sign that the filter is doing it’s job. His band sounded sharp, crisp, and dynamic as they should.

Terry Clark’s “Molten Swing” was detailed and dynamic. This is a good match for the BLAM’s which are quick and dynamic. The stage had two noticeable layers to it. Saxes had a nice warm tone. The Trumpets were sharp and crisp, especially playing fortissimos. The backing band was as clear as the forefront. Their loudness level was subdued properly.

Cyrill Lutzelschwab & Martin Hess “Boxenkiller” from Audionutz vol 4. The TSM25 tweeters have an incredible amount of detail. You can hear everything from the strike to decay on cymbal crashes. Bursting with overtones in the light cymbal taps. The MS3’s played the snare and tom hits with life-like tonality. You could even tell the bassist was using thinner strings given the way you could hear his fingers slide over them.

Sam McClain’s voice sounded a little shallow in “When the Hurt is Over”. But that is just due to the tonal bias of the MS3 towards upper midrange. The BLAM’s still did a great job playing back this piece. Sam’s voice became dynamic when the song required it. His steel guitar had a lot of detail. You could hear his fingers slide along and pluck the strings. The same goes for the backup guitar in the right channel. The guitar body emitted a nice and rich tone as the guitarist plucked the strings. You could hear every little detail. Keys just seemed to float off the pianists fingers. The piano had a nice warm tone except when the pianist really laid on the keys during a climax. The percussion takes a back seat in this song. Doing nothing more than holding a rhythm. However, the BLAM’s still resolved every little bit of detail in the recording for them. You could hear the gentle brush strokes glide over the snare. The TSM25’s seem to be the gem here. I might want to review these separately.

Tomas Örnbergs' Blue Five and Friends song “Win’in Boy Blues” is a Dixieland style recording which is very well mic’d. Banjo and sax are stationed to the right, trumpet and bass center, piano left. All play at a moderate level until the sax and then trumpet hit their solos. There is a big jump in dynamic range that the BLAM’s execute with precision. If you’ve never heard the song before it could startle you if caught off guard.

OK. I’ll get off my instrumental Jazz kick now. The BLAM’s do this very well. They produce excellent tone, detail, and dynamics in pretty much every song I throw at them. So, where do we go next?

How about some Ministry “@ss Clown” cranked so loud you go crying to mommy to turn it down? Yes this song is as loud, distorted, and chaotic as they come. However, as I suspected. The BLAM’s owned this song. Another wall of pure chaos, hate, and fury pushed off to the side and considered done. Sitting at about 118dB overall the BLAM’s were probably playing at about 102dB clean and without breaking a sweat.

Next up was some Mudvayne “Dig”. This song actually has some syncopation to it. The song contains abrupt starts and stops. The BLAM’s can go from super hate to chill in the blink of an eye. They have a rather impressive transient response with almost no audible blur or ringing once a note stops.

Next back to Igorrr “Very Noise” which is a strange mash up of percussion, sound effects, heavy metal riffs, super fast bass lines, lightning fast kick drum beat, EDM, and swedish death metal. As chaotic as always. The BLAM’s will chew this up and spit it right back at you. Perfect execution. Next, Igorrr’s “Downgrade Desert”. The BLAM’s made the opening cutscene sound as realistic as possible. Then the opening metal riffs were strong, clean, and powerful. I believe the BLAM’s are even more sharp and accurate as the Audio Development MM4 I just reviewed. These are the type of song’s where the BLAM’s lightning precision is welcome and possibly even preferred.

Finally, the Revolting ****’s cover tune “Do Ya Think I’m Sexy” had as much grit and swagger as the artist intended. The BLAM’s may even have been too sharp here. It’s difficult to determine what REVCO was going for: sexy, nasty and distorted, a little bit of both? The BLAM’s were on the “hot” side playing this song. Definitely not sexy . All sounds and effects were played back sharp as a knife. Highly dynamic with no perceivable distortion beyond the 2-->3 KHz peak that still plagued them occasionally during this song.

Electronic musician Felix LaBand's song “Whistling in Tongues” is supposed to set a super wide and spacious atmosphere. The stage was flat and did not extend beyond the BLAM’s to left and right. I hardly sensed the feeling of spaciousness at all. The BLAM’s were hyper accurate in playing back all sound effects and instruments. The same goes with Felix’s song “Black Shoes”. Notes should bounce left to right in an ultra wide expanse. Rather, the stage extended to the edge of the speakers. This is a song where I believe soundstage is more important than detail. The BLAM’s were almost too detailed for this song. There was no sense of deep relaxation.

Another test to determine soundscape is Carl Hancock’s song “Asphalt Yards”. Unfortunately, the BLAM’s did not do this well either. The wide stage collapsed to the width of the speakers. There was no perceivable depth. Vocal and instrumental tonality was great. Sound positioning was spot on. But, that is not the showpiece of this song. The choir should be set back in the stage and pan very wide.

With the notch filter set Chris Isaak’s song “Wicked Game” sounded fairly smooth and dreamy. A little harshness still existed around 2KHz to 3KHz but it was perfectly palatable. You don’t want to cut much further out of risk of reducing detail and clarity. Chris’s voice was velvety smooth. The guitars were clean and crisp sounding and had great tone. The only real fault was that the percussion was still harsh.

Going back to the earlier Maggie Koerner tune “Tree’s In A Line” I could still sense a tad bit of harshness in her voice when she hit her crescendos. Otherwise, her voice sounded smooth and silky. I’ve explained the rest of the recording before in other reviews. It did not sound different here. The backing guitar had nice body and character. However, the percussion is dull and washed out. But, it was recorded this way.

I played my Nirvana MTV Live set consisting of “Oh Me", "Something in the Way", and "The Man Who Sold the World”. The overtones on certain acoustic guitar notes had a harsh edge on them even with the notch filter active. At times the percussion could get a little sharp and annoying as well. Kurt’s voice was clean and clear though. Finally, the crowds claps at the end of “The man Who Sold the World” had a sharp and annoying edge to them.

For as much as I want to like these speakers I do not. You can filter some of the distortion / edginess out of them with EQ. However, this sacrifices detail. It was a real balancing act playing with the amount of cut and the width of the filter. I ultimately settled on a happy medium. On some songs it was great. On other songs there was still an unpleasant bite.

I am going to rate the MS3 and TSM25 together now. I will then go back and listen to material with the MS3 playing full range. Finally, I might evaluate the TSM25 on its own paired with the E430. This tweeter does not have as good of soundstage as others I’ve tested but is extremely detailed.

*BLAM MS3 midrange and TSM25 tweeter rating:*

Tonality 2.5 of 4
Detail 4 of 4
Spaciousness 2.5 of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) 2 of 4
Dynamics 4 of 4

*Review BLAM MS3 playing full range 300Hz @ 24dB/octave and up.*

The MS3 was a completely different driver once I eliminated the TSM25 tweeter. Any harshness comments I made earlier no longer applied. The MS3 mellowed out quite nicely. Music actually became pleasant to listen to.

The MS3 is capable of producing a surprising amount of treble. Albeit the treble lacked the laser like precision and detail of the TSM25. But, it was nice and balanced sounding similar to the Dynaudio MD102. Admittedly I have become a detail freak. The MS3 would not be my first choice if I could install anything. However, I could live with them if I only had space for a single wideband.

However, you need to keep the MS3’s on axis. Frequency response drops off quickly as you veer off axis. Take a look at the following graph.









Red is the MS3 on axis. Blue is the MS3 45degrees off axis. Green is MS3 with TSM25 crossed at 5KHz and 45degrees off axis.

You can see that high frequency response drops off like a rock as you go off axis. The MS3’s sound muddy and lifeless under this circumstance. So, keep in mind using a wide band is a very case specific application.

I tried the MS3 and TSM25 crossed at 5KHz instead of 3KHz. However, most of the detail was washed out crossing this high. It is clear the TSM25 is most detailed in its lower range and makes up the majority detail of the pair.

*BLAM MS3 midrange full range 300Hz @ 24dB/octave and up rating:*

Tonality 3 of 4
Detail 3 of 4
Spaciousness 3 of 4
Harshness 3.5 of 4
Dynamics 3 of 4

I don’t plan on rating the MS3 with TSM25 crossed over at 5KHz. I don’t hear enough of a difference on axis to make a difference. Of course results vary as you go off axis. But, I don’t believe this is a good application for the MS3 crossed at 5Hz.

I really want to like this midrange / fullrange. So, I tried something different:









I crossed the TBM and MS3 off at 3KHz 24dB/octave like I originally did with the BLAM TSM25 tweeter. I'll be [email protected] if the harshness / shoutiness of the MS3 didn't come back a little. I had to cut 2.5KHz by -3dB again. However, once I did the harshness went away and never came back. I listened to my entire set listed above again. I also listened to a bunch of other material.

The MS3 is a nice mid tier midrange. But, I would not use it as such. You can get better midranges for the price. However, if you were in the market for a full range this is a great contender.

*BLAM MS3 midrange with Focal Utopia M TBM tweeter rating:*

Tonality 3.5 of 4
Detail 3 of 4
Spaciousness 3 of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) 3.5 of 4
Dynamics 3 of4


----------



## JCsAudio

So they aren’t living up to all the bling and eye candy they have. Those neodymium magnets, curvy cast baskets, and golden spade terminals look good though.


----------



## Ge0

JCsAudio said:


> So they aren’t living up to all the bling and eye candy they have. Those neodymium magnets, curvy cast baskets, and golden spade terminals look good though.


I have a few things I'm going to try. Hold on...


----------



## SkizeR

Seems like theyre very like focal (which makes sense considering Guy Boneville was an engineer for them), where they have a more aggressive top end. This isn't always a bad thing so long as it's only a frequency response thing. A lot of car audio brands do this. It's much easier to dial it back than to boost it up. This is why you will see tweeters in a lineup are much more sensitive than their midrange and midbass counterparts. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.


----------



## Ge0

I'm thinking the MS3's just don't play well with tweeters. Playing the MS3 full range right now. Harshness is gone and it is singing something fierce. If you can get these suckers on axis they are impressive. Still need to measure and do some tests off axis.


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## Isaradia

raise mid to tweeter crossover point?


----------



## Ge0

Isaradia said:


> raise mid to tweeter crossover point?


My next move after finishing up full range evaluation.


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## SkizeR

Just curious, what were they crossed at? They tweeter has a pretty high FS and considering the ms3 is a wideband, the designer seems to want you to use the midrange as high as possible and use the tweeter to fill in where necessary. 

I also sat in a car with him while he tuned and saw him do pretty much exactly this

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


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## Ge0

SkizeR said:


> Just curious, what were they crossed at? They tweeter has a pretty high FS and considering the ms3 is a wideband, the designer seems to want you to use the midrange as high as possible and use the tweeter to fill in where necessary.
> 
> I also sat in a car with him while he tuned and saw him do pretty much exactly this
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


I was at 3.5KHz with 24dB/octave high pass. The documentation that came with the tweet states Fs=1.2KHz. My crossover point is over 2x Fs with some pretty steep slopes. I thought this would be safe.

Thinking about moving that up to 5KHz. Will run each driver without filters to see where they want to be naturally crossed at.


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## Ge0

Go back and look at the BLAM review. I just updated it to include the MS3 used in full range application. Also, a few brief comments about running a higher cross-over point at 5KHz.

Thinking I may try the MS3's with a tweeter I know works well at 3KHz. How about BLAM MS3 and Focal TBM?


----------



## tinker monkey

Well, BLAM isn't cheap..I don't see someone who can afford the TBM not getting a well known performer and trying BLAM for almost the same price or more and having "BLAM" showcased on the label. I really want the e430 but they are backordered everywhere or grossly marked up so I'm waiting for stock. Otherwise I'm looking at order some XXM325 as backfill and as a temporary front. I was considering BLAM because of stock issues but thank you for your review, I think you saved me the disappointment and now I definitely would get the xx325's before the BLAM option.


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## Ge0

tinker monkey said:


> Well, BLAM isn't cheap..I don't see someone who can afford the TBM not getting a well known performer and trying BLAM for almost the same price or more and having "BLAM" showcased on the label. I really want the e430 but they are backordered everywhere or grossly marked up so I'm waiting for stock. Otherwise I'm looking at order some XXM325 as backfill and as a temporary front. I was considering BLAM because of stock issues but thank you for your review, I think you saved me the disappointment and now I definitely would get the xx325's before the BLAM option.


You won't be disappointed in the XXM325. As a matter of fact I'll bet you $1.00 you'll like them so much you'll want to keep them.


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## jtrosky

I really do think that modern widebands are underrated - especially if being used on-axis or in factory dash locations firing up into the windshield (which then reflects the sound back to the driver, similar to being on-axis). Plus, you can always boost the high-end if needed - it's not like you're going to drive an amp into clipping by boosting 10khz+ by 6dB - or even more (since those freqs require so little power). Some of the modern widebands can make fantastic 2-way systems - way better than 6.5" in the doors and tweeters in the dash/a-pillars, simply because you can put so much more of the sound up on the dash instead of low in the doors. I'm still amazed at the sound (both quantity and quality) that comes from my 2.5" widebands installed in OEM dash locations, firing up into the windshield.


----------



## Ge0

I think my next two reviews will be wide bands:


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## clange2485

What’s going on with the surr on the micro?


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## DaveG

Sounds like the 3” Blam primed you!


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## DaveG

clange2485 said:


> What’s going on with the surr on the micro?


Good eye. That’s ugly!


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## clange2485

I’m guessing it shouldn’t be that way and was possibly packaged wrong - still don’t understand the gold/silver blam thing.


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## Ge0

clange2485 said:


> What’s going on with the surr on the micro?


I took a hot soldering iron to it...









Joking. They were not packed with factory packaging inserts. They were bubble wrapped inside the box. I think the opposite midrange flange was pressing against the dimpled surround. I'll pump some bumpin bass beats through it to see if I can get it to pop back out.

It's not actually that bad. It's all in the way the light struck it in the first photo. Looking at this photo its not as bad as it looks.


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## Ge0

I just finished my final edits on the BLAM review. Go take a peek when you have a chance.


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## DaveG

Try putting it in the sun.


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## Catalyx

The rubber has memory that will pull it back into place over a couple days.


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## clange2485

lol - I’m sure you’ll figure it out. I heard about this big girl named betty that might be able to help you out. I hope you like spaghetti..

Thanks for sticking that in my head all day.


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## clange2485

You could always play it off like one of those guys who says my kid pushed in all my tweeters but it doesn’t effect the sound. 

Condition is 11 out of 10. Better then new!!




Obviously a different situation and this guy will pop right back.


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## Ge0

clange2485 said:


> lol - I’m sure you’ll figure it out. I heard about this big girl named betty that might be able to help you out. I hope you like spaghetti..
> 
> Thanks for sticking that in my head all day.







You can't deny true art man


----------



## Ge0

Just needed to pump 40Hz through them at 102dB. The dimple straightened right out .


















Could they have picked an uglier color of silver to paint the cones. Yes, seeing these in person the cones are obviously painted.


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## RyuTsuiSen

Ge0 said:


> Just needed to pump 40Hz through them at 102dB. The dimple straightened right out .


Thanks for giving me a laugh tonight 

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


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## Ge0

RyuTsuiSen said:


> Thanks for giving me a laugh tonight
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


Excellent. Then you are starting to understand me. I don't give a fug. I'm just on this earth to have fun .


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## DaveG

Ge0 said:


> I don't give a fug. I'm just on this earth to have fun .


And buy mids and tweeters!


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## RyuTsuiSen

So many....

We also await your accuton reviews. Always been so curious on their lineup. Only person I recall using them was Skizer in his double setup Volvo. IF my memorys correct 

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


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## Ge0

RyuTsuiSen said:


> So many....
> 
> We also await your accuton reviews. Always been so curious on their lineup. Only person I recall using them was Skizer in his double setup Volvo. IF my memorys correct
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


Not really sure about that. He hasn't shared progress in quite a while...


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## SkizeR

I dont have accuton in my car. The distributor in Germany didn't answer me when I asked for pricing, so..


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## JCsAudio

SkizeR said:


> I dont have accuton in my car. The distributor in Germany didn't answer me when I asked for pricing, so..


If you have to ask then you cannot afford them. You know that man!


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## SkizeR

JCsAudio said:


> If you have to ask then you cannot afford them. You know that man!


I know what they cost. When I say "ask for price", I mean my dealer price if I were to be one lol. I would have bought them. I think they didn't answer because they were in the middle of talks with setting up US distribution. 

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


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## dumdum

SkizeR said:


> I know what they cost. When I say "ask for price", I mean my dealer price if I were to be one lol. I would have bought them. I think they didn't answer because they were in the middle of talks with setting up US distribution.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


I believe it’s the guy who is ex dynaudio head honcho aldo filippelli who is to be the importer I think, but he is struggling to get stocks currently, a well known us competitor wanted some, aldo was quite upfront and said it’s out of his hands currently, same with lots of brands in Europe with supply chain issues 😔


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## dumdum

Micro precision 5.80 mids sound rather exquisite… the cone is incredibly light with a believe a paper former to keep moving mass down, I have the pdf spec sheet if anyone cares… two secs…

I will say the crossover recommendation is not for general use, it’s for lower volumes and sq competition use, the U.K. distributor reckons 300hz is a sweet spot for the crossover for daily 👍🏼


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## Ge0

Micro-Precision 5.8's tuned and ready for review...









*Full range:*










*Paired with Focal Utopia M TBM tweeter crossed at 3KHz and 24dB/octave:*


----------



## SkizeR

dumdum said:


> I believe it’s the guy who is ex dynaudio head honcho aldo filippelli who is to be the importer I think, but he is struggling to get stocks currently, a well known us competitor wanted some, aldo was quite upfront and said it’s out of his hands currently, same with lots of brands in Europe with supply chain issues 😔


Yes, I spoke to Aldo. But what I'm talking about is about 8 months ago when I got the car


----------



## Ge0

*Review Micro-Precision 5.8 fullrange and sometimes with Focal Utopia M TBM tweeter.*

































5.8 Full Range:









5.8 with Focal TBM crossed over at 3KHz 24dB/octave









I’m going to be totally honest. I didn’t have high hopes for these drivers. They sit on a plain old steel frame basket. They have a big old honking ferrite magnet. And finally they have a paper cone which is painted silver. They naturally roll off above 4KHz directly on-axis. So, I needed to apply anywhere from 2dB to 5dB of boost on the upper end to flatten them out for this test.

My first impression listening to the Bill Holman Band’s “Lightnin’” was WOW! This is a big band song where solo’s pop and backing instruments hit fortissimo out of nowhere quite often. The 5.8’s have great dynamics, detail, clarity, sound staging, tonality. These are a big step up from the BLAM MS3. The 5.8’s successfully positioned instruments throughout the stage and gave the stage a sense of depth. Switching back and forth between full range and tweeter on this song I preferred full range. There was a similar amount of detail between the two. But, the full range driver seemed to place images better, or more well defined.

Tiger Okoshi “Yuki No Furu Machi O” is a subdued jazz track with fairly intricate percussion and a Tiger trumpet solo throughout most of the song. The backing piano sounded [email protected] near magical here with it’s fluid sound and great tonality. The backing percussion was highly detailed, dynamic when needed, and just sounded life like. Tiger’s muted trumpet solo was sweet and subdued with great tone and overtones. The 5.8 full range equals the ScanSpeak D3004 silk in upper midrange / lower treble performance. I am truly impressed. You have to listen to intricate percussion passages very close to hear the difference between the 5.8 full range and then the 5.8 paired with the TBM. Once you hear the TBM play back a passage it becomes obvious where the additional detail lies. However, the 5.8 sounds very pleasant regardless.

Thurman Green’s “Minor Blue” is another well mic’d jazz jam session. The 5.8’s created a life like soundstage. Width extended beyond the edge of the speaker baffles. They also set proper depth cues. Not as precise as other solutions, but good enough to establish a 3D sounding listening space. Thurman’s trombone had a wonderful laid back tone. Hamiet Bluiett’s baritone sax had the necessary amount of bellowing growl to it. Both instrumentalists felt like they were sitting right in front of you. Backing percussion was crisp, detailed, and clear. You could hear the strings slap on the standup bass. Hamiets’s baritone sax solo just howled with dynamic detail. The 5.8’s did an awesome job playing back this song.

My final jazz track will be The Norris Turney Quartet and their song “Blues for Edward”. The song opens and closes with a highly dynamic wailing alto sax solo from Norris. The 5.8’s did not break a sweat. Loud and clear with absolutely no sense of harshness. The only real percussion here is a long cymbal ride used to keep time. You can hear the initial strike, the primary tone, and many overtones coming off it. The recording captured the cymbal so well you would swear it was sitting 10ft in front of you. The piano solo was not quite as forward as the alto sax. But, you could definitely tell the difference when he was simply playing notes vs. hammering them out. The standup bass was also well mic’d and highly detailed. You could hear the bassists fingers slide and slap over the strings. The notes emitting from the bass had a rich tone. The 5.8’s did another awesome job playing this song back.

Piers Paccini song “Where Angels Fly” is a folk rock song. The opening acoustic bass passage sounded detailed with fast transients and accurate tone. Piers' voice is soft and somewhat dreamy. I turned the volume up on this one quite a bit (maybe 103dB) . This was the first time I’ve heard the 5.8’s get a little edgy / stressed. They didn’t sound harsh and unpleasant to listen to. However, it was clear they were approaching their limits on Piers’ vocals. The acoustic guitar sounded rich and full of warm tones. The drums hammered out a good firm beat. The cymbals were clear without any edge. However, their recording level was well below that of the main vocals. Turning the volume down just a little cleared any hint of edginess up.

The 5.8’s nailed Chris Cornell’s “Seasons” as good as any other speaker I have evaluated. It was very surprising. They seemed to recess his voice slightly which took the sharp edge off. It did this while not sacrificing clarity or detail. His guitar maintained perfect detail and clarity as well. The same goes for Chris’s song “Call Me a Dog”. Here his voice was more pronounced, maybe a bit deeper, but did not become harsh or shrill. The guitar was full bodied and full of detail. The 5.8’s replicated Chris’s vocal climaxes without a hint of stress.

The 5.8's played my Nirvana set perfectly. No need to elaborate further.

Harry Connick’s voice was velvety smooth in “Nowhere With Love”. The backing music was played back as expected. It had a great amount of clarity and detail. However, the horns lost a little bit of their “pop” and percussion lost a little bit of its “sparkle” without a dedicated set of high performance tweeters.

The test that the BLAM MS3’s failed was playing back Maggie Koerner’s “Cayute Woman” and “Trees in a Line”. Her voice had a harsh peak at about 2.5KHz. This was nowhere to be found when played back with the Micro-Precision 5.8’s. Her voice was as rugged and sweet as always with nothing that stood out unless she wanted it to. The 5.8’s soaked up her screams like nothing ever happened. The unfortunate part about these recordings is that the drum kit was not mic’d very well. Cymbal crashes were a little harsh here. But, that’s not a fault of the driver. It’s built into the recording.

Felix Leband's “Whistling in Tongues” and “Black Shoes” were replicated in great expansive detail. The 5.8’s set a huge soundstage just as the artist intended. The 5.8’s were detailed enough to make some of the sound effects and vocals sound spooky real. The 5.8’s were sharp and concise. They placed sounds exactly where they needed to go. Another success.

Melody Gardot’s voice is smooth yet sassy in the song “Bad News”. The 5.8’s caught her tone and reflections perfectly. The big band in the song is staggered off in the distance. Some close, some afar. The 5.8’s accurately placed them. There is a distorted and ugly sax solo at minute marker 2:10 that is so dynamic it hits you like a brick. The 5.8’s played this back as perfectly as a distorted sax solo is going to get.

Vocal’s in Michael Buble’s “Quando Quando Quando” were buttery smooth. He and Nelly Furtado seemed to blend perfectly with no part of their vocals standing out. The musical passage sounded pleasant as well. However, like with Harry Connick's song earlier, it seemed to lose a little bit of pop and sparkle that I’m used to when listening to it with a tweeter.

OK, that’s great. But, how do they fare with some slightly heavier tunes?

The 5.8’s were not quite as dynamic as I would have liked them to be playing back Igorrr’s song “Viande”. They did not distort at high volume. However, the crazy mad vocalist's voice seemed too recessed in the song vs. standing forefront. This is a little strange since the blaring wall of metal guitar, bass, and percussion seemed just fine.

How about some Ministry “@ss Clown” cranked to your threshold of pain? Yes this song is as loud, distorted, and chaotic as described before. The 5.8’s thrived on this song. Sitting at about 118dB overall the 5.8’s were probably playing at about 103dB clean and without breaking a noticeable sweat.

A tougher test is Gojira’s song “Love”. There is actually stuff to listen for beyond pure distortion. The 5.8’s were able to separate Joe’s growling / screaming voice as well as Mario’s intricate percussion work over the wall of heavy metal guitar and bass that was being cast at your face. This is a high energy / angry song. The 5.8’s kept that mood a rockin’ even at ear blistering listening levels.

Overall I am very impressed with the Micro-Precision 5.8 full range drivers. There were only a few instances where I wanted to go back and re-listen to a passage or a tune with tweeters active to see what I was missing. The difference is smaller than you would think. The 5.8’s have excellent detail throughout their audible range.

At the time of this writing I'm not sure if there still is a US distributor for these drivers. However, you can purchase them from Peter from PSSOUND off his web site for roughly $500 a set. Not too bad considering what you are getting. So, if you feel comfortable with a gaudy silver looking driver in your install, or can find a way to hide it, I recommend the Micro-Precision 5.8 Wideband. Just keep them on-axis.

Here is a graph of the 5.8's on axis (Blue) and then 45 degrees off axis (Red). Remember, I had to boost treble to begin with to get a flat response on-axis. I don't recommend boosting further to compensate for off-axis. If you can't get these on-axis look elsewhere:










*Micro-Precision 5.8 fullrange rating:*

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 3 of 4
Spaciousness 3.5 of 4
Harshness ( lack of ) 3.5 of 4
Dynamics 3 of 4


----------



## clange2485

Is there a distributor or dealer for these in the usa? Not sure if this ok to talk about or start adding to the reviews but pricing would be a nice addition.


----------



## JCsAudio

Really nice reviews Geo and interesting thread.

It’s amazing to me that you’ve somehow been able to get your hands on and demo so many different and unique drivers, and it’s also amazing to me that you haven’t been able to get your hands on a pair of AF GB25 and GB10. I want to rip mine out of my CX5 and send them to you but then maybe I don’t really want to know where they stand because then I’ll want to spend even more money and its nuts how much money between three vehicles I’ve already spent. 

I do know how the Morel Supremo Piccolos sound though and I did say they were something special before you demoed them.


----------



## clange2485

JCsAudio said:


> Really nice reviews Geo and interesting thread.
> 
> It’s amazing to me that you’ve somehow been able to get your hands on and demo so many different and unique drivers, and it’s also amazing to me that you haven’t been able to get your hands on a pair of AF GB25 and GB10. I want to rip mine out of my CX5 and send them to you but then maybe I don’t really want to know where they stand because then I’ll want to spend even more money and its nuts how much money between three vehicles I’ve already spent.
> 
> I do know how the Morel Supremo Piccolos sound though and I did say they were something special before you demoed them.


I would also like to know where the gb’s stand because i just put them in my truck but I wouldn’t rip yours out just yet, chances are a pair of both might be coming his way in the near future and a set of gb15’s.

At the same time I’m also concerned as to what rabbit hole it’s going to lead into. Those xcelsus look really tempting though.


----------



## vactor

calm down. i offered him my GB 10 / 25 / 40 's that are waiting on an install (but i am also getting a new ride, so they would be better used in this venue than waiting for a car to be installed in). so he has access. he just needs time and opportunity lol


----------



## bertholomey

Great review Geo! I have read many reviews of headphones, speakers, source, and amplifiers - explaining how the various pieces played back the various tracks - I found your explanations of the 5.8’s to be as descriptive as any in the various sites / magazines. You painted a very good ‘picture’ that is easy to ‘see’ in my mind. I know you have had fun, but it is a lot of work too - and it is appreciated. 

For me, even though I’m not in the market for tweets / mids....after I read your analysis - it makes me want to listen to mine - using the same music - ‘am I hearing the same kinds of things? Why, why not?’ Part of the enjoyment of the hobby - so thank you for that!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ge0

bertholomey said:


> Great review Geo! I have read many reviews of headphones, speakers, source, and amplifiers - explaining how the various pieces played back the various tracks - I found your explanations of the 5.8’s to be as descriptive as any in the various sites / magazines. You painted a very good ‘picture’ that is easy to ‘see’ in my mind. I know you have had fun, but it is a lot of work too - and it is appreciated.
> 
> For me, even though I’m not in the market for tweets / mids....after I read your analysis - it makes me want to listen to mine - using the same music - ‘am I hearing the same kinds of things? Why, why not?’ Part of the enjoyment of the hobby - so thank you for that!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thanks Jason. I'm trying to accurately describe what I hear by giving specific instances as possible. There is enough vague crap online that can ramble on for pages and tell you nothing.

Part of the fun of this whole exercise is to find sleepers like the 5.8's. Just looking at them I didn't give them a chance at first. Looking at the BLAM's I thought they would rule, nope...

Oh crap. My Audible Physics NZ3's are on the chopping block next. Let's see if they sink or float .


----------



## bbfoto

@Ge0
I've said it before, and I'll say it again...you're a [email protected] MACHINE, G!  Thanks for all of the incredible time and effort put into listening and writing up your reviews. 

It helps quite a bit that you've been using a lot of tracks that I'm intimately familiar with as well, including the most recent additions. 👍

Regarding the Micro-Precisions mids, I've been impressed several times by "basic" drivers that seem very ordinary.

@bertholomey 
I think that the Xcelsus XXM325 set are worth an evaluation since they are inexpensive enough (from nonsolospeakers.com) that even if you sold them second-hand you'd probably not be out more than $50.

They'd probably fit in your small stand-mount oak enclosures without too much trouble, and I'd be curious to know how they fare against your current Audisons. Out of the box, they might be a bit too forward for your tastes, but I'm pretty sure you're fairly competent with the DSP/tuning.


----------



## Ge0

vactor said:


> calm down. I offered him my GB 10 / 25 / 40 's that are waiting on an install (but i am also getting a new ride, so they would be better used in this venue than waiting for a car to be installed in). so he has access. he just needs time and opportunity lol


I'm not going to go out and buy Frog's. But do know your generous offer stands. My problem is I have over a month back log. I keep buying crap. Catalyx and others keep sending crap. It's hard to keep track of.

You know... A lot of folks have been asking about the Frog's. I could be convinced to bump them to the front of the line (after my Audible Physics and Accuton's). Raise your hands. Who wants to see Frog's come next?


----------



## RyuTsuiSen

@bertholomey

Post #485? That's the xxm325 review

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Isaradia

accuton, then frogs


----------



## bbfoto

Ge0 said:


> I'm not going to go out and buy Frog's. But do know your generous offer stands. My problem is I have over a month back log. I keep buying crap. Catalyx and others keep sending crap. It's hard to keep track of.
> 
> You know... A lot of folks have been asking about the Frog's. I could be convinced to bump them to the front of the line (after my Audible Physics and Accuton's). Raise your hands. Who wants to see Frog's come next?


I personally don't need an evaluation of the Audiofrogs...I've used most of them and am still using a few of them.

However, I think that your review of the Audiofrogs would be an excellent point of reference for this community, as they are or have been so popular and generally well-regarded here since their release.


----------



## JCsAudio

The Frogs were the last forum boner driver and they still stand as very good drivers so they have my vote. So many people have used them or have experience with them so they can relate or use them as the reference benchmark here. they may not be the best ones here but I think they will do well.


----------



## Stycker

Yes Frogs please


----------



## sq-cop

Frog comparison would be great


----------



## dumdum

Ge0 said:


> *Review Micro-Precision 5.8 fullrange and sometimes with Focal Utopia M TBM tweeter.*
> View attachment 301422
> 
> View attachment 301423
> 
> View attachment 301424
> 
> View attachment 301425
> 
> 
> 5.8 Full Range:
> View attachment 301426
> 
> 
> 5.8 with Focal TBM crossed over at 3KHz 24dB/octave
> View attachment 301427
> 
> 
> I’m going to be totally honest. I didn’t have high hopes for these drivers. They sit on a plain old steel frame basket. They have a big old honking ferrite magnet. And finally they have a paper cone which is painted silver. They naturally roll off above 4KHz directly on-axis. So, I needed to apply anywhere from 2dB to 5dB of boost on the upper end to flatten them out for this test.
> 
> My first impression listening to the Bill Holman Band’s “Lightnin’” was WOW! This is a big band song where solo’s pop and backing instruments hit fortissimo out of nowhere quite often. The 5.8’s have great dynamics, detail, clarity, sound staging, tonality. These are a big step up from the BLAM MS3. The 5.8’s successfully positioned instruments throughout the stage and gave the stage a sense of depth. Switching back and forth between full range and tweeter on this song I preferred full range. There was a similar amount of detail between the two. But, the full range driver seemed to place images better, or more well defined.
> 
> Tiger Okoshi “Yuki No Furu Machi O” is a subdued jazz track with fairly intricate percussion and a Tiger trumpet solo throughout most of the song. The backing piano sounded [email protected] near magical here with it’s fluid sound and great tonality. The backing percussion was highly detailed, dynamic when needed, and just sounded life like. Tiger’s muted trumpet solo was sweet and subdued with great tone and overtones. The 5.8 full range equals the ScanSpeak D3004 silk in upper midrange / lower treble performance. I am truly impressed. You have to listen to intricate percussion passages very close to hear the difference between the 5.8 full range and then the 5.8 paired with the TBM. Once you hear the TBM play back a passage it becomes obvious where the additional detail lies. However, the 5.8 sounds very pleasant regardless.
> 
> Thurman Green’s “Minor Blue” is another well mic’d jazz jam session. The 5.8’s created a life like soundstage. Width extended beyond the edge of the speaker baffles. They also set proper depth cues. Not as precise as other solutions, but good enough to establish a 3D sounding listening space. Thurman’s trombone had a wonderful laid back tone. Hamiet Bluiett’s baritone sax had the necessary amount of bellowing growl to it. Both instrumentalists felt like they were sitting right in front of you. Backing percussion was crisp, detailed, and clear. You could hear the strings slap on the standup bass. Hamiets’s baritone sax solo just howled with dynamic detail. The 5.8’s did an awesome job playing back this song.
> 
> My final jazz track will be The Norris Turney Quartet and their song “Blues for Edward”. The song opens and closes with a highly dynamic wailing alto sax solo from Norris. The 5.8’s did not break a sweat. Loud and clear with absolutely no sense of harshness. The only real percussion here is a long cymbal ride used to keep time. You can hear the initial strike, the primary tone, and many overtones coming off it. The recording captured the cymbal so well you would swear it was sitting 10ft in front of you. The piano solo was not quite as forward as the alto sax. But, you could definitely tell the difference when he was simply playing notes vs. hammering them out. The standup bass was also well mic’d and highly detailed. You could hear the bassists fingers slide and slap over the strings. The notes emitting from the bass had a rich tone. The 5.8’s did another awesome job playing this song back.
> 
> Piers Paccini song “Where Angels Fly” is a folk rock song. The opening acoustic bass passage sounded detailed with fast transients and accurate tone. Piers' voice is soft and somewhat dreamy. I turned the volume up on this one quite a bit (maybe 103dB) . This was the first time I’ve heard the 5.8’s get a little edgy / stressed. They didn’t sound harsh and unpleasant to listen to. However, it was clear they were approaching their limits on Piers’ vocals. The acoustic guitar sounded rich and full of warm tones. The drums hammered out a good firm beat. The cymbals were clear without any edge. However, their recording level was well below that of the main vocals. Turning the volume down just a little cleared any hint of edginess up.
> 
> The 5.8’s nailed Chris Cornell’s “Seasons” as good as any other speaker I have evaluated. It was very surprising. They seemed to recess his voice slightly which took the sharp edge off. It did this while not sacrificing clarity or detail. His guitar maintained perfect detail and clarity as well. The same goes for Chris’s song “Call Me a Dog”. Here his voice was more pronounced, maybe a bit deeper, but did not become harsh or shrill. The guitar was full bodied and full of detail. The 5.8’s replicated Chris’s vocal climaxes without a hint of stress.
> 
> The 5.8's played my Nirvana set perfectly. No need to elaborate further.
> 
> Harry Connick’s voice was velvety smooth in “Nowhere With Love”. The backing music was played back as expected. It had a great amount of clarity and detail. However, the horns lost a little bit of their “pop” and percussion lost a little bit of its “sparkle” without a dedicated set of high performance tweeters.
> 
> The test that the BLAM MS3’s failed was playing back Maggie Koerner’s “Cayute Woman” and “Trees in a Line”. Her voice had a harsh peak at about 2.5KHz. This was nowhere to be found when played back with the Micro-Precision 5.8’s. Her voice was as rugged and sweet as always with nothing that stood out unless she wanted it to. The 5.8’s soaked up her screams like nothing ever happened. The unfortunate part about these recordings is that the drum kit was not mic’d very well. Cymbal crashes were a little harsh here. But, that’s not a fault of the driver. It’s built into the recording.
> 
> Felix Leband's “Whistling in Tongues” and “Black Shoes” were replicated in great expansive detail. The 5.8’s set a huge soundstage just as the artist intended. The 5.8’s were detailed enough to make some of the sound effects and vocals sound spooky real. The 5.8’s were sharp and concise. They placed sounds exactly where they needed to go. Another success.
> 
> Melody Gardot’s voice is smooth yet sassy in the song “Bad News”. The 5.8’s caught her tone and reflections perfectly. The big band in the song is staggered off in the distance. Some close, some afar. The 5.8’s accurately placed them. There is a distorted and ugly sax solo at minute marker 2:10 that is so dynamic it hits you like a brick. The 5.8’s played this back as perfectly as a distorted sax solo is going to get.
> 
> Vocal’s in Michael Buble’s “Quando Quando Quando” were buttery smooth. He and Nelly Furtado seemed to blend perfectly with no part of their vocals standing out. The musical passage sounded pleasant as well. However, like with Harry Connick's song earlier, it seemed to lose a little bit of pop and sparkle that I’m used to when listening to it with a tweeter.
> 
> OK, that’s great. But, how do they fare with some slightly heavier tunes?
> 
> The 5.8’s were not quite as dynamic as I would have liked them to be playing back Igorrr’s song “Viande”. They did not distort at high volume. However, the crazy mad vocalist's voice seemed too recessed in the song vs. standing forefront. This is a little strange since the blaring wall of metal guitar, bass, and percussion seemed just fine.
> 
> How about some Ministry “@ss Clown” cranked to your threshold of pain? Yes this song is as loud, distorted, and chaotic as described before. The 5.8’s thrived on this song. Sitting at about 118dB overall the 5.8’s were probably playing at about 103dB clean and without breaking a noticeable sweat.
> 
> A tougher test is Gojira’s song “Love”. There is actually stuff to listen for beyond pure distortion. The 5.8’s were able to separate Joe’s growling / screaming voice as well as Mario’s intricate percussion work over the wall of heavy metal guitar and bass that was being cast at your face. This is a high energy / angry song. The 5.8’s kept that mood a rockin’ even at ear blistering listening levels.
> 
> Overall I am very impressed with the Micro-Precision 5.8 full range drivers. There were only a few instances where I wanted to go back and re-listen to a passage or a tune with tweeters active to see what I was missing. The difference is smaller than you would think. The 5.8’s have excellent detail throughout their audible range.
> 
> At the time of this writing I'm not sure if there still is a US distributor for these drivers. However, you can purchase them from Peter from PSSOUND off his web site for roughly $500 a set. Not too bad considering what you are getting. So, if you feel comfortable with a gaudy silver looking driver in your install, or can find a way to hide it, I recommend the Micro-Precision 5.8 Wideband. Just keep them on-axis.
> 
> Here is a graph of the 5.8's on axis (Blue) and then 45 degrees off axis (Red). Remember, I had to boost treble to begin with to get a flat response on-axis. I don't recommend boosting further to compensate for off-axis. If you can't get these on-axis look elsewhere:
> View attachment 301429
> 
> 
> 
> *Micro-Precision 5.8 fullrange rating:*
> 
> Tonality 4 of 4
> Detail 3 of 4
> Spaciousness 3.5 of 4
> Harshness ( lack of ) 3.5 of 4
> Dynamics 3 of 4


I had toyed with doing a pair of these on my dash in true IB through the bulkhead to get over the dynamics front of things, the detail I found to be very good, they were played with tweeters when I heard them… 7 series micro precision tweeters no less… very nice as combinations go, if only Thomas could do a true 4” driver in something less than the Z series that would play a bit lower than the 5.80

the dynaudio esotar 430 do have my attention, they should play low enough, as would the scan 12mu, I have a set of satori mw13p-4 kicking about, they would be an Interesting through into this mix at 13cm diameter they are a touch bigger than the scan 12mu…


----------



## Ge0

bbfoto said:


> It helps quite a bit that you've been using a lot of tracks that I'm intimately familiar with as well, including the most recent additions. 👍


Huh... Go figure ... I know this guy who has an awesome music collection.


----------



## SkizeR

JCsAudio said:


> Really nice reviews Geo and interesting thread.
> 
> It’s amazing to me that you’ve somehow been able to get your hands on and demo so many different and unique drivers, and it’s also amazing to me that you haven’t been able to get your hands on a pair of AF GB25 and GB10. I want to rip mine out of my CX5 and send them to you but then maybe I don’t really want to know where they stand because then I’ll want to spend even more money and its nuts how much money between three vehicles I’ve already spent.
> 
> I do know how the Morel Supremo Piccolos sound though and I did say they were something special before you demoed them.


He should have just asked me a couple weeks ago. Would have sent him a set for free lol


----------



## clange2485

SkizeR said:


> He should have just asked me a couple weeks ago. Would have sent him a set for free lol


lol - Were you getting rid of some? I don’t think anyone even noticed.


----------



## DeLander

clange2485 said:


> lol - Were you getting rid of some? I don’t think anyone even noticed.


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Ge0

DeLander said:


> 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


Inside joke???


----------



## ckirocz28

Ge0 said:


> Inside joke???


Yeah, @SkizeR broke up with AudioFrog.








Audiofrog Cleanout


Some BNIB and some used Audiofrog equipment that won't be getting used. GS25 - Sold GS10 - $150 pair, bnib GS60 - $220 pair, bnib GS610C (GS60/GS10 passive crossover) - Sold GS42 - $200 pair, bnib GS62 - Sold GS693 - $300 pair, bnib Now for the used, and not pictured (still in my car) GB60 -...




www.diymobileaudio.com


----------



## DaveG

Ge0 said:


> Inside joke???


The divorce has not been amicable!


----------



## Catalyx

I’m not entirely sure why but I never was excited or even really interested in AudioFrog and my overall impression is they’re simply boring.


----------



## RyuTsuiSen

I was wondering who was gonna post that thread. That being said, really good pricing for those that got the stuff.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


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## clange2485

Catalyx said:


> I’m not entirely sure why but I never was excited or even really interested in AudioFrog and my overall impression is they’re simply boring.


Hopefully we’ll find out soon, I doubt they will stack up with the best of the best but i bet they’ll hold there own vs a couple more expensive options.


----------



## Elektra

clange2485 said:


> Hopefully we’ll find out soon, I doubt they will stack up with the best of the best but i bet they’ll hold there own vs a couple more expensive options.


From when I tried the GB25 and GB10’s my thoughts where they “ok” nothing wow.... 

They where hyped up so much everywhere... truth be told if you wanted a general everyday listening car they ok to use however they not cheap and there are better drivers to use for the same money or a little more...

The Xcelsus is half the price of the GB25 and it sounds better so is the tweeter - the GB60 is quite expensive - similar money to my Brax Matrix 6.1’s and I haven’t heard better midbass in car with those in..

Everything they make is “ok” imho...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Porsche

Elektra said:


> From when I tried the GB25 and GB10’s my thoughts where they “ok” nothing wow....
> 
> They where hyped up so much everywhere... truth be told if you wanted a general everyday listening car they ok to use however they not cheap and there are better drivers to use for the same money or a little more...
> 
> The Xcelsus is half the price of the GB25 and it sounds better so is the tweeter - the GB60 is quite expensive - similar money to my Brax Matrix 6.1’s and I haven’t heard better midbass in car with those in..
> 
> Everything they make is “ok” imho...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


agreed, i have heard several cars that a lot of folks that where awesome, they did nothing for me. dyna esotar or accuton any day


----------



## Niebur3

Dynaudio Esotar2 3-way is $5,800 MSRP and the AudioFrog GB 3-way is $2,000 MSRP.....just pointing this fact out since I'm a dealer for both.


----------



## Elektra

Niebur3 said:


> Dynaudio Esotar2 3-way is $5,800 MSRP and the AudioFrog GB 3-way is $2,000 MSRP.....just pointing this fact out since I'm a dealer for both.


Xcelsus less than half of Audiofrog... at least over here... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Clvol1255

Porsche said:


> agreed, i have heard several cars that a lot of folks that where awesome, they did nothing for me. dyna esotar or accuton any day


Agree I’ve tried the tweeter mid and now sub. Only thing that I haven’t heard is the mid bass but I’ve sold them all. Solid but nothing about them wowed me. I don’t understand the hard on for them personally


----------



## SkizeR

Clvol1255 said:


> Agree I’ve tried the tweeter mid and now sub. Only thing that I haven’t heard is the mid bass but I’ve sold them all. Solid but nothing about them wowed me. I don’t understand the hard on for them personally


Super easy to install, smaller form factor than comparable speakers, high power handling, more than acceptable sound for its price point.. 

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


----------



## Clvol1255

SkizeR said:


> Super easy to install, smaller form factor than comparable speakers, high power handling, more than acceptable sound for its price point..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


Agreed they seem to be built well too


----------



## DaveG

SkizeR said:


> Super easy to install, smaller form factor than comparable speakers, high power handling, more than acceptable sound for its price point..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


And not to mention they also come with a lot of nice install accessories. In fact I’m not aware of another brand that has such a nice compliment of install accessories. And let’s not forget manufacturer customer support! With the exception of the latest forum boner the frogs compare well when dollar for dollar is considered.


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## SkizeR

MOD: REMOVED for content and Off-Topic


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## Niebur3

MOD: REMOVED for content and Off-Topic


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## Clvol1255

Well let’s see how the Frogs compare to the rest of the mids and tweeters to Geo’s ears. He and I somewhat disagreed on the TBM/TBXP tweeter but also heard lots of the same things. I can’t really comment one way or the other on Andy’s support. Somewhere in between great and poor for me personally. He has warrantied a UMI 1 mic for me but he’s also tried to make me feel ignorant for being a Trump supporter. If he’d leave the political emotions off his Facebook page I feel he’d be better off but that’s just my opinion. Overall I feel he is good to his customers from what I’ve seen on his enthusiast page but I have no idea what it’s like dealing with him as a vendor or distributor of his product


----------



## jtrosky

MOD: REMOVED for Off-Topic


----------



## SkizeR

[MOD: REMOVED for content and Off-Topic


----------



## SkizeR

MOD: REMOVED for content and Off-Topic


----------



## Porsche

MOD: REMOVED for Off-Topic


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## Clvol1255

MOD: REMOVED for Off-Topic


----------



## jtrosky

MOD: REMOVED for Off-Topic


----------



## Patriot83

MOD: REMOVED for content and Off-Topic


----------



## SkizeR

MOD: REMOVED for content and Off-Topic


----------



## Clvol1255

just realized this is a great thread so I’m finished responding to off topic comments. Don’t wanna spam it up


----------



## Petererc

I don’t have Facebook 
I have a feeling I am not missing anything, 
Talk about off topic


----------



## Clvol1255

MOD: REMOVED for Off-Topic


----------



## Catalyx

Yeah, this thread is about tweeters and midranges so let’s all shut up and see how Mr. Wehmeyer’s product designs perform.


----------



## ckirocz28

MOD: REMOVED for content and Off-Topic


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## Catalyx

MOD: REMOVED for content and Off-Topic


----------



## jheat2500

Hey, let's all move on and let Geo do his thing! 🤙


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## ckirocz28

jheat2500 said:


> Hey, let's all move on and let Geo do his thing!


Amen! Hurry up @Ge0!


----------



## Niebur3

Take you time @Ge0 , we all appreciate it and know how time consuming this all is.


----------



## Ge0

Jesus. I go away for a day and there is a 2 page long soap opera in my [email protected] speaker review thread. Take your b!tch sessions elsewhere... I'm turned off on Frogs now. I have tons of other stuff to get to.


----------



## Ge0

The one I almost forgot about...

*Morel MT-350 soft dome tweeter paired with Focal 3.5wm midrange:*









































The MT-350’s share a lot of sonic characteristics with the Piccolo but are less polished. They have a wonderful tonal signature like the Piccolo. The primary difference is that the MT-350’s are a little brighter. This makes them sound more forward than the Piccolo. 

The MT-350’s have a nice and detailed sound. All instruments sounded natural and well defined on the Yuri Honing cover of “Walking on the Moon”. The percussion set was crisp and clear. You could hear tones and overtones coming off the body of the standup bass. You could also hear the intricate string plucks. The sax sounded lush and phenomenal.
(14) 04. The Yuri Honing Trio - Walking on the moon - YouTube 

The MT-350’s have a similar level of detail as the ScanSpeak D3004 and come close to the Piccolo. Cymbal strikes rang for about 2 to 3 seconds in Norris Turney Quintet “Blues for Edward”. I noticed the MT-350 has plenty of detail but does not contain subtleties as much as the Piccolo. Light sounds that should be kept in the background tend to be brought forward. For instance while brushing a cymbal the initial strike should be normal volume. But, as the stick slides off the surface the volume should be subdued. This sequence occurs at a constant volume on the MT-350’s. To summarize, they burst with detail but tend to overdo it. Not near as bad as the ScanSpeak D3004 Beryllium though.





Terry Clark’s song “Molten Swing” is a good test for the dynamics of a driver. The big band is wide and expansive in the background. Every once in a while a soloist pops out left, right, or center. The final trumpet solo at center really jumps out at you. The MT-350’s handled this just fine. They accurately replicate the sudden jumps from mezzo forte to fortissimo.





Mighty Sam McClain “When the Hurt is Over” was crystal clear and vibrant. The guitar and piano work was highly detailed and “popped” when the song required it. Sam’s voice sounded powerful and emotional. His wailing steel guitar backed his voice up nicely. The piano was pitch perfect and sounded natural / real. However, the imaging cues weren’t clear. Instrument placement seemed to wander and smear a little. There was no sense of depth as well. So, these little tweets are dynamic and detailed but do not image as well as others I’ve heard. They are still very enjoyable to listen to.

The MT-350’s got a little harsh at higher volumes. During Calexico’s song “Fade” cymbal crashes sounded like hash vs. a crisp strike. 

Dave Bruebeck's song “Blue Rondo a la Turk '' burst with detail but seemed forced and a little harsh. Zoom to Dave Brubeck's song “Three to Get Ready” minute marker 0:50. For the first time ever I hear a whack sound. So, I stopped the song and backed up to investigate. It sounded like the drummer inadvertently hit his stick on the side of the snare. I swapped over to the Piccolos and then TBM’s In both instances the same sound was there but not as pronounced. More like a light tap. I found it odd that the MT-350’s accentuated this.

The MT-350’s created an open and airy soundstage. You can sense depth but can’t quite make it out. Sound stage stays at boundaries extend slightly beyond the speakers. This sounded like a different song moving to the XXT30’s. Stage depth and spatial cues (spaciousness) were back. Treble was crisp yet soft like the song. The XXT30’s provided finer detail in percussion.

*Morel MT-350 tweeter rating:*

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 3 of 4
Spaciousness 2.5 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 3 of 4
Dynamics 3 of 4


----------



## Ge0

*Review Kravchenko KAXBLT dome tweeters paired with Dynaudio E430 midranges*

















If you are primarily looking for a dull and lifeless tweeter this one is for you.

OK. OK. Maybe they are not THAT bad. They are very smooth and laid back. Void of any amount of detail. Compared to the others in this test, they were not awe inspiring. Noticeably more laid back than the Dynaudio MD102’s. So much not my taste I did not give them a full review. However, if you like your tweeters to make your treble soft and dull these may be right for you.

*Kravchenko KAXBLT tweeter rating:*

Tonality 2.5 of 4
Detail 1.5 of 4 
Spaciousness 1.5 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 4 of 4
Dynamics 2 of 4


----------



## seafish

^^^^ LOL ...at least they scored 4/4 on the lack of harshness test !!!!


----------



## RyuTsuiSen

RIP

This may have been asked, but long thread now lol. What makes you choose whether you'll pair a driver with the focal 3.5 or the dyn e430s?

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

RyuTsuiSen said:


> RIP
> 
> This may have been asked, but long thread now lol. What makes you choose whether you'll pair a driver with the focal 3.5 or the dyn e430s?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


That really depends on personal taste and my mood that day. You can't go wrong with the Piccolo and E430 combo. Can't go wrong with the TBM and 3.5wm combo. However, I've switched them up as well. TBM and E430 or Piccolo and 3.5wm.

Keep in mind there is yet another option with the Xcelsus drivers too.


----------



## Elektra

I hear there is a 4” Xcelsus mid that sounds better than the current 3.5” mid - I may get a sample to try sometime and apparently there will be even higher quality version coming soon as well...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## seafish

Ge0 said:


> That really depends on personal taste and my mood that day. You can't go wrong with the Piccolo and E430 combo. Can't go wrong with the TBM and 3.5wm combo. However, I've switched them up as well. TBM and E430 or Piccolo and 3.5wm.
> 
> Keep in mind there is yet another option with the Xcelsus drivers too.


Somewhere in there is a useful analogy for marital relationships.


----------



## Ge0

*Review of the Audible Physics NZ3 wideband driver*









































NZ3 wideband









NZ3 with TBM crossed at 3KHz









NZ3 wideband on axis vs. 45 degrees off axis









The Audible Physics NZ3. The wideband driver that wants to own you. Perfect tone, highly detailed, extremely dynamic, not so harsh, and an excellent sound stage. But, they are forward and forceful. They will be playing along beautifully. Then, for no reason at all they will stop and punch you in the face. They can be as hot headed as comedian Bill Burr. Or, they can be as sweet as Fran Drescher...

Patricia barbers “Nardis”. You should just sink into this song and let it flow. That is with the exception of the drum solo mid song. The NZ3’s just kept pushing and pushing throughout the song like they were trying to knock you off the top of the mountain. However, they did so with perfect composure. Their sound staging brings vocals front and center while backing instruments stay back except when called upon to play a solo. The drum solo was dynamic and impactful as ever.

The NZ3’s plowed through Patricia Barber's fortissimo high notes in her super dynamic vocal solos. This was true for as loud as I cared to turn the volume up. The NZ3’s just did it effortlessly.

The NZ3’s are even more detailed than Micro-Precision 5.8’s were. It was hard to determine when the paired TBM tweeter was turned on or off. You had to listen very closely. Now ain’t that somethin’.

Patricia Barber’s song “Too rich for my blood”. The lead vocal position was a little fuzzy with the TBM engaged. However, her position was razor sharp with only the NZ3 wideband playing. It’s nothing short of amazing what they have done with this speaker.

The NZ3’s were not as aggressive with the TBM’s turned on. The speakers were crossed over at 3KHz 24dB/octave. I went back and listened to “Nardis” and “Too Rich For My Blood” again. The song’s now sounded close to what I was used to hearing them. Some of the edge had been dulled / taken off. It’ debatable if this is better or worse. Later in this review I reveal how I was able to take some edge off by leaving the NZ3’s playing by themselves wideband.

The NZ3’s played back Saint Saens “Danse Macabre” perfectly. The string section was soft and musical when required to be. Violin strokes alternated between sharp and crisp then to light and playful. The horn section was powerful and well stated. Their climaxes were extremely dynamic and impactful. So much so it took me by surprise. Quiet passages throughout the song were played back soft enough. You can hear every last detail of the percussion sections triangles, xylophones, and brushes. Kettle drum impacts were downright forceful.

Critical listening of Dave Brubeck's “Strange Meadow Lark”. Dave’s opening piano just flowed perfectly. It had wonderful tonality. Lower notes had plenty of body. Higher notes would just glide off the keys. Paul’s sax entered in lush, warm, and vibrant as it should. Percussion throughout the song was crisp and precise. In the very background you could still make out the slapping of strings on the standup bass. 

In Dave Brubeck’s “Three To Get Ready” opening cymbal strike sounded natural with TBM’s engaged. The opening cymbal strikes were just as detailed with the NZ3 playing wideband. However, the NZ3 accentuated the first tones off the cymbal which made them sound slightly different. Maybe to the point where it did not sound as natural. Mind you, this is EXTREME nitpicking. But, I need to report something .

Nirvana unplugged sounded “hot” at first. I believe this was due to a dip I was trying to compensate for at 550 Hz. Reducing that compensation from +5dB to +3dB helped mellow things out. I also knocked 2KHz down -2dB. Nirvana “Jesus Doesn’t Want Me For A Sunbeam” is supposed to be a mellow and easy to listen to tune. It seemed aggressive and a bit “shouty” while listening with the NZ3 wideband. Just enough to prevent keeping this song from being a laid back musical experience. For instance, the accordion in this song should just “be there” playing steadily in the background. I felt like the NZ3’s were shoving it in my face at times. Here, here, here, here.... This was weird. Because at the same time the guitars sounded great. Nice tone and detail but perhaps on the sharp side. Kurt’s voice was also rendered really good. Nice and smooth. Just that pesky [email protected] accordion!!! Other songs like “Oh Me” were rendered nearly perfect. Kurt's voice was a little sibilant. Only a few sharp and edgy notes at places like minute marker 1:16, 1:19, and 2:44.

The Alice in Chains MTV Live Unplugged set sounded great. I even found something new. At 2:32 into “No Excuses” I heard a couple out of tune /missed guitar notes I never noticed before. Layne Staley's voice sounds crisp and natural. The NZ3’s do not have a soft edge like with other speakers. These things bring out every inflection / detail that exists in the recording. No sugar coating. These things just killed the entire Alice in Chains set. So detailed. Maybe too detailed?

The NZ3’s played back Maggie Koerner’s “Cayute Woman” as powerful as the Micro-Precision 5.8’s. Her voice went from soft and subdued to Roar without effort. The big difference here is that the NZ3’s uncovered additional detail in the percussion I haven’t heard before. Or, that I haven’t heard in a while. It seemed out of place at first.

Opening guitars were laser crisp and well defined in the opener of Days of the New “Now”. Travis’s voice was clear but still had a soft enough edge. However, his voice became a little shouty as he led into his scream’s. You could hear every note and pluck off the guitar strings in the song’s center solo. Like a high speed camera was filming the finger work and then slowing it down so you could catch every last detail.

Leading into Igorrr’s EDM / metal mashup “Camel Dancefloor”. The NZ3’s ate this song for lunch. Laser precision in guitar, bass, and percussion. Highly dynamic with no signs of stress. The NZ3’s picked up every detail the song could throw at them.

This is going to sound strange. But, the ONLY reason I would pair a tweeter with the NZ3’s is if I wanted to tame them down a little. They can be so analytical and precise that they can get fatiguing. 

Next up was Pantera's song “This Love”. Again, the opening musical sequence of guitar and percussion was ultra detailed, crisp, and precise. When the metal riff’s hit at minute marker 1:18 the NZ3’s lit it up. Big time. I could sense they started to stress and compress at about 113dB. However, this is so God [email protected] loud you hardly notice it. There was just this massive wall of sound kicking your a$$ . The only speakers in this evaluation I have heard play this song back louder and clearer were the Steven’s Audio HCLD Comp Neo’s. 

Likewise in Knife Parties hardcore EDM tune “Centipede”. The bass can be absolutely pounding, the guitar's blaring, etc… But, you can still hear all the underlying sound effects as they unfold. The centipede’s feast at the end was especially gruesome.

P.J. Harvey’s “Rub til it Bleeds” was as visceral and powerful as I’ve heard it performed live. The song builds in a grungy garage rock style until guitars and screams come blaring at minute marker 2:15. The NZ3’s don’t place a soft edge to PJ’s voice like other midrange drivers do. She sounds all out pissed throughout the song. Whereas I believe there is supposed to be a conflicting sense of emotion that the Dynaudio E430 can portray. Technically both drivers play the song back without fault. It’s just interesting to see the different ways they go about it.

Mighty Sam McClain’s song “When the Hurt is Over '' sounded pretty [email protected] good as well. The NZ3’s do a great job bringing out the tone of his steel guitar. Also, the wonderful tone of the piano as key’s go from quiet passages to hammering along. The NZ3’s do a great job offering a ton of dynamic contrast. The same goes for Sam’s voice. The NZ3’s do a great job managing the inflections in his voice as he goes from singing to growling. Sam’s steel guitar goes from wailing to subdued background perfectly. The NZ3’s catch every detail.

The NZ3’s set a huge open atmosphere in Felix Laband’s song “Black Shoes”. Sounds and effects went as wide as they did deep. Voices seemed to echo in an infinitely open expanse. Placement of each sound was precise. Even while panning across the stage. The NZ3’s tracked this with laser precision. Bam bam bam bam…. The clarinet solo seemed to float effortlessly in void while the accordion was more nailed to center image.

The final tunes I listened to were mostly technical tracks to determine the spatial imaging of the NZ3’s. Again, they are pretty [email protected] amazing. They can create as good of a 3D image as my Focal Utopia TBM and 3.5WM combo.

The final song in this set is The Harry James Band tune “Lara”. Here, a big band is deep back into the stage. Piano at the far left side, percussion deep center, horns span from left to right. The trumpet solo steps forward and just pop’s. Backing saxophones stand up allowing them to be heard better. All throughout the song you could tell exactly where each instrument was placed.

Bonus: Tracey Chapman’s “The Love That You Had” was pleasing to listen to. Tracey’s soft and deep voice came across as emotional and powerful. However, I thought her guitar strum’s sounded a little hollow and unnatural. The song did not sound as warm and relaxed as I like it.

And this pretty much summarizes the Audible Physics NZ3’s. They do everything right. However, they still seem a little forced and off. They remind me a lot of the Utopia 3.5WM’s until I got them dialed in perfectly. The NZ3’s sound awesome in instrumental music. They sound awesome in most vocal music. However, eventually you’re going to come across a song where something does not seem right. I’m sure this can be corrected with a minor amount of tuning. However, you need to be careful. You don’t want to take away too much of these drivers' details to achieve that. 

Pairing them with a tweeter was shown to calm them down. However, this was at the expense of some image clarity. Again, maybe something that can be corrected with some minor tweaking. One thing is for sure. It is amazing what Audible Physics was able to do with a set of wide band drivers. They took something like the Micro-Precision 5.8 and made it even more detailed and accurate. It truly is something to say that you prefer a 3.5” driver WITHOUT a tweeter. But, the NZ3’s were that set of speakers.

If you can get these on-axis they would be the perfect speaker for a 2 way front stage. The fact that so much of the music's content is coming from a single point source definitely has advantages. The fact that a set of these currently sells for roughly $600 makes the value proposition a no brainer. The NZ3’s are highly recommended..

*Audible Physics NZ3 wideband driver rating:*

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 3.5 of 4 
Spaciousness 4 of 4
Harshness 3 of 4
Dynamics 4 of 4


----------



## Ge0

*Review: ScanSpeak D3004/6040 Beryllium dome tweeter (also known as Scan Be) paired with DynAudio E430 midrange.*


















































This is perhaps the only ScanSpeak driver I ever encountered that I do not recommend. The Scan be is hyper accurate. It has layers of detail. However, it throws all that detail in your face in a rather unpleasant way. It does not allow you to relax to your music.

I really thought this tweeter was going to be perfect. A ScanSpeak beryllium dome! However, it was far from that to me. Especially after hearing the Focal Utopia TBXP and TBM. The Scan Be was just downright fatiguing. Yes, it was very detailed. However, it could not contain and project that detail in a controlled manner. For lack of a better term, it just puked it out.

There was no polish. There was no smoothness. I spent a few days with the tweeter trying to tame it down. However, all I succeeded in was making it sound dull. So, it was either too dull or it was overbearing. I had a ton of other speakers to review so I abandoned ship. It may be worth re-investigating in the future. However, for now have better things to do.

*ScanSpeak D3004/6040 Beryllium dome tweeter rating:*

Tonality 3 of 4
Detail 4 of 4
Spaciousness 3 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 2 of 4
Dynamics 3 of 4


----------



## DriverDaily

I wonder if the deep dome Beryllium D3004 are any less harsh? These are the cheapest beryllium domes Scanspeak makes. Maybe that's for a reason.


----------



## Catalyx

Buy a pair to send Ge0 and find out!


----------



## SmallSoldier

Ge0 said:


> *Review: ScanSpeak D3004/6040 Beryllium dome tweeter (also known as Scan Be) paired with DynAudio E430 midrange.*
> View attachment 302238
> 
> View attachment 302239
> 
> View attachment 302240
> 
> View attachment 302241
> 
> View attachment 302242
> 
> View attachment 302243
> 
> 
> This is perhaps the only ScanSpeak driver I ever encountered that I do not recommend. The Scan be is hyper accurate. It has layers of detail. However, it throws all that detail in your face in a rather unpleasant way. It does not allow you to relax to your music.
> 
> I really thought this tweeter was going to be perfect. A ScanSpeak beryllium dome! However, it was far from that to me. Especially after hearing the Focal Utopia TBXP and TBM. The Scan Be was just downright fatiguing. Yes, it was very detailed. However, it could not contain and project that detail in a controlled manner. For lack of a better term, it just puked it out.
> 
> There was no polish. There was no smoothness. I spent a few days with the tweeter trying to tame it down. However, all I succeeded in was making it sound dull. So, it was either too dull or it was overbearing. I had a ton of other speakers to review so I abandoned ship. It may be worth re-investigating in the future. However, for now have better things to do.
> 
> *ScanSpeak D3004/6040 Beryllium dome tweeter rating:*
> 
> Tonality 3 of 4
> Detail 4 of 4
> Spaciousness 3 of 4
> Harshness (lack of) 2 of 4
> Dynamics 3 of 4


Thank you for this review... I guess I should scratch the Sans Be from my list of potential tweeters to my match with the 430’s! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

*Review: ScanSpeak D3004/6020 - (Scan D3004 silk) paired with Scan 12m, Dyn E430, and Focal 3.5WM*









































The Scan D3004 silk is my reference tweeter. It is an all around work horse that is nice and balanced. You can hear 3.5 out of 4 levels of detail. 

Let’s reference the last 4 minutes of the song “Nardis”. During cymbal rides you can hear an extended ring of the cymbal seconds after the initial strike. With lesser tweeters and midranges this detail is omitted. Yes, you still hear the cymbal strike, But, you may not hear the tones and overtones that follow. I call this hidden detail. Stuff you really don’t notice that much during playback. However, you can tell if it's missing once you hear it. The music loses a sense of realism..

Same thing with Dave Brubeck: “Blue Rondo A La Turk”, “Take Five”, “Three to Get Ready”, and “Pick Up Sticks” off the Time Out Album. Cymbal strikes ring longer on the Scan tweeters than they do with the MD102. The initial tone is identical but the MD102’s dampen quicker than the D3004’s. I personally think the D3004’s sound a little more lifelike here. The MD102’s sound nice but not my top choice because of this.

Kurt Ellings voice comes out crystal clear with no exaggeration in the upper octaves. Nothing stands out, it just blends right in.. The tweeter just disappears. Reveals new layers in cymbal strikes vs. the Dyn MD102, MT171, and Alpine SPX Pro. You just don’t hear the percussion. You feel it as well due to the additional detail. The D3004’s open up another layer of detail that didn’t exist on the others. More realistic representation.

I’m not going to go into great detail regarding the performance of the D3004’s here. As stated, they are my reference standard starting this round of reviews. I will compare their performance to other devices over and over throughout these reviews. So, hold onto your shorts and let’s go for a ride…

*ScanSpeak D3004/6020 Soft Dome tweeter rating:*

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 3 of 4
Spaciousness 3 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 3.5 of 4
Dynamics 3 of 4


----------



## Ge0

SmallSoldier said:


> Thank you for this review... I guess I should scratch the Sans Be from my list of potential tweeters to my match with the 430’s!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Exactly what I told you when you asked me last night...


----------



## Ge0

Just cleaning up old stuff I never posted...

*Review: Dynaudio MD102 paired with E430 midrange















*
















The MD102 is another old workhorse for many people. It has a very smooth presentation which is nice and balanced. This is much like the Scan D3004 silk. The MD102 is very musical sounding. It remains smooth by giving up detail and accuracy. You can hear some of the detail the Scan D3004 silk offers but the MD102 attenuates it vs bringing it forward. Hyper detail is not for everyone. The MD102 earns maybe 2.5 out of 4 levels of detail. Again, detail is not entirely missing but it is too subdued.

If you like a mellow and refined tweeters then the MD102 is for you. Vocals are silky smooth. Percussion is non-fatiguing. You can listen to this tweeter all day. However, don’t try to increase treble levels on the MD102 to try and gain more clarity / detail. It will become shrill. Leave it for what it is, a beautiful sounding mellow tweeter. If you want greater detail and definition then move to the DYN MT171, Scan D3004 silk, or better.

*Dynaudio MD102 soft dome tweeter rating:*

Tonality 4 of 4
Detail 2.5 of 4
Spaciousness 3 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 4 of 4
Dynamics 2.5 of 4


----------



## Ge0

*Review: Illusion Audio Copper Beryllium dome tweeter paired with Dynaudio E430*









The Illusion Audio CuBe tweeter sounded a lot like the Scan Be with less detail. It was more detailed than the Gladen Aerospace 20 but it was also sibilant. The CuBe was also just a tad bit harsh. I heard all of this in the first few songs I tried so I discontinued the review.

The CuBe was not a bad tweeter by any means. But, it is nothing I would recommend you run out to buy. There are far better options for a fraction of the price.

*Illusion Audio Copper Beryllium dome tweeter rating:*

Tonality 2.5 of 4
Detail 3 of 4 
Spaciousness 2.5 of 4
Harshness (lack of) 2.5 of 4
Dynamics 3 of 4


----------



## Ge0

OK. I should be caught up with my old reviews. The only review I did not post is for the Gladen Aerospace 20 tweeters. I didn't take adequate notes during my review. That was over 5 months ago. I forgot my initial impression and will be will be re-doing that review. All I have written down is how much it sounds like the ScanSpeak D3004 Silk.

I also never formally reviewed my Dynaudio Esotar E430's. I think I am going to do that next paired with the Accuton Cell 30's. Why the fug not. Will the Accuton's dethrone the Piccolo's? 

Then maybe I'll try some frog's....


----------



## chrisp2493

I’m pretty sure all your posts about the D3004’s are what led me to go with them for my car. Now I paired them up with an 11m midrange, it’s my first dip into higher end car audio and I love them! But people aren’t kidding about how fragile the leads are on them, I had to repair mine after attempting to solder on a lead.


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## Isaradia

ACCUTON, ACCUTON, ACCUTON!!!!!


----------



## Isaradia

"Accuton’s story begins in 1984 when a Backes & Müller production-engineer, Bernhard Thiel, invented a process to produce thin sheets of extremely hard Alpha corundum (Al2O3). This patented procedure enabled the manufacturing of stiff, lightweight, and highly damped loudspeaker calottes (bowl shape). This new and very hard material facilitates loudspeaker drivers with broader bandwidth and lower distortion.

At first, these ceramic drivers were exclusively produced for new Backes & Müller products, but a few years later Thiel left Backes & Müller and founded his own company, the original Thiel GmbH in Homburg, Germany. His loudspeaker units — only tweeters and midranges at this time — were distributed in the audiophile world and gained a great reputation for their sonic virtues. Soon, these drivers were used in many of high-end loudspeakers throughout the world. Backes & Müller, the primary vendor for Bernhard Thiel, went out of the aluminum oxide business in 1992. This, of course, presented some major problems for Thiel GmbH. So, Bernard Thiel started looking for a partner to take care of the economic side of business. Adrian Bankewitz was, at this time the European distributor of Accuton products and Thiel’s longtime friend. He became Bernard Thiel’s partner, bought the assets of Thiel GmbH, put together the production and distribution channels, and renamed the company Thiel & Partner GmbH."

per voicecoil mag, via audioxpress


----------



## Catalyx

Umm, we don’t need brand history in this thread.


----------



## Isaradia

my condensed thread of just the reviews is 2 pages. this thread is 37, there was more to this comment, but ill be passive.


----------



## Holmz

Isaradia said:


> my condensed thread of just the reviews is 2 pages. this thread is 37, there was more to this comment, but ill be passive.


Are you also crossing over?


----------



## Isaradia

im surely filtering, so it could be said


----------



## Ge0

[email protected] Now this is sexy...


----------



## sq-cop

Is everyone else like me and checking this thread multiple times a day for updates? Living vicariously through Ge0.... I really enjoy the read.


----------



## Ge0

I only check it now and then. The guy doesn't know what he's doing...


----------



## SNCTMPL

He just keeps making me spend money.


----------



## DeLander

sq-cop said:


> Is everyone else like me and checking this thread multiple times a day for updates? Living vicariously through Ge0.... I really enjoy the read.


Yep, even tho I can't afford ANYTHING he has tested !!🤔🤬


----------



## Ge0

DeLander said:


> Yep, even tho I can't afford ANYTHING he has tested !!🤔🤬












You cheap muther fugger....


----------



## DeLander

Ge0 said:


> View attachment 302376
> 
> 
> You cheap muther fugger....



Oh....well.....yeah
Nevermind☺


----------



## SkizeR

Ge0 said:


> [email protected] Now this is sexy...
> View attachment 302298


Yep, they're going to look pretty good in our demo cars.. 

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

DeLander said:


> Oh....well.....yeah
> Nevermind☺


LOL!!! I'll save you another $100:









Use Dayton RS100's instead .


----------



## Ge0

SkizeR said:


> Yep, they're going to look pretty good in our demo cars..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


Speaking of which. Where is your latest progress report on that car?


----------



## SkizeR

Ge0 said:


> Speaking of which. Where is your latest progress report on that car?


Same as it was 3 months ago lol

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

SkizeR said:


> Same as it was 3 months ago lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


Slacker...


----------



## John richards

Ge0 said:


> *Review of the Audible Physics NZ3 wideband driver*
> View attachment 302230
> 
> View attachment 302231
> 
> View attachment 302232
> 
> View attachment 302233
> 
> View attachment 302234
> 
> 
> NZ3 wideband
> View attachment 302235
> 
> 
> NZ3 with TBM crossed at 3KHz
> View attachment 302236
> 
> 
> NZ3 wideband on axis vs. 45 degrees off axis
> View attachment 302237
> 
> 
> The Audible Physics NZ3. The wideband driver that wants to own you. Perfect tone, highly detailed, extremely dynamic, not so harsh, and an excellent sound stage. But, they are forward and forceful. They will be playing along beautifully. Then, for no reason at all they will stop and punch you in the face. They can be as hot headed as comedian Bill Burr. Or, they can be as sweet as Fran Drescher...
> 
> Patricia barbers “Nardis”. You should just sink into this song and let it flow. That is with the exception of the drum solo mid song. The NZ3’s just kept pushing and pushing throughout the song like they were trying to knock you off the top of the mountain. However, they did so with perfect composure. Their sound staging brings vocals front and center while backing instruments stay back except when called upon to play a solo. The drum solo was dynamic and impactful as ever.
> 
> The NZ3’s plowed through Patricia Barber's fortissimo high notes in her super dynamic vocal solos. This was true for as loud as I cared to turn the volume up. The NZ3’s just did it effortlessly.
> 
> The NZ3’s are even more detailed than Micro-Precision 5.8’s were. It was hard to determine when the paired TBM tweeter was turned on or off. You had to listen very closely. Now ain’t that somethin’.
> 
> Patricia Barber’s song “Too rich for my blood”. The lead vocal position was a little fuzzy with the TBM engaged. However, her position was razor sharp with only the NZ3 wideband playing. It’s nothing short of amazing what they have done with this speaker.
> 
> The NZ3’s were not as aggressive with the TBM’s turned on. The speakers were crossed over at 3KHz 24dB/octave. I went back and listened to “Nardis” and “Too Rich For My Blood” again. The song’s now sounded close to what I was used to hearing them. Some of the edge had been dulled / taken off. It’ debatable if this is better or worse. Later in this review I reveal how I was able to take some edge off by leaving the NZ3’s playing by themselves wideband.
> 
> The NZ3’s played back Saint Saens “Danse Macabre” perfectly. The string section was soft and musical when required to be. Violin strokes alternated between sharp and crisp then to light and playful. The horn section was powerful and well stated. Their climaxes were extremely dynamic and impactful. So much so it took me by surprise. Quiet passages throughout the song were played back soft enough. You can hear every last detail of the percussion sections triangles, xylophones, and brushes. Kettle drum impacts were downright forceful.
> 
> Critical listening of Dave Brubeck's “Strange Meadow Lark”. Dave’s opening piano just flowed perfectly. It had wonderful tonality. Lower notes had plenty of body. Higher notes would just glide off the keys. Paul’s sax entered in lush, warm, and vibrant as it should. Percussion throughout the song was crisp and precise. In the very background you could still make out the slapping of strings on the standup bass.
> 
> In Dave Brubeck’s “Three To Get Ready” opening cymbal strike sounded natural with TBM’s engaged. The opening cymbal strikes were just as detailed with the NZ3 playing wideband. However, the NZ3 accentuated the first tones off the cymbal which made them sound slightly different. Maybe to the point where it did not sound as natural. Mind you, this is EXTREME nitpicking. But, I need to report something .
> 
> Nirvana unplugged sounded “hot” at first. I believe this was due to a dip I was trying to compensate for at 550 Hz. Reducing that compensation from +5dB to +3dB helped mellow things out. I also knocked 2KHz down -2dB. Nirvana “Jesus Doesn’t Want Me For A Sunbeam” is supposed to be a mellow and easy to listen to tune. It seemed aggressive and a bit “shouty” while listening with the NZ3 wideband. Just enough to prevent keeping this song from being a laid back musical experience. For instance, the accordion in this song should just “be there” playing steadily in the background. I felt like the NZ3’s were shoving it in my face at times. Here, here, here, here.... This was weird. Because at the same time the guitars sounded great. Nice tone and detail but perhaps on the sharp side. Kurt’s voice was also rendered really good. Nice and smooth. Just that pesky [email protected] accordion!!! Other songs like “Oh Me” were rendered nearly perfect. Kurt's voice was a little sibilant. Only a few sharp and edgy notes at places like minute marker 1:16, 1:19, and 2:44.
> 
> The Alice in Chains MTV Live Unplugged set sounded great. I even found something new. At 2:32 into “No Excuses” I heard a couple out of tune /missed guitar notes I never noticed before. Layne Staley's voice sounds crisp and natural. The NZ3’s do not have a soft edge like with other speakers. These things bring out every inflection / detail that exists in the recording. No sugar coating. These things just killed the entire Alice in Chains set. So detailed. Maybe too detailed?
> 
> The NZ3’s played back Maggie Koerner’s “Cayute Woman” as powerful as the Micro-Precision 5.8’s. Her voice went from soft and subdued to Roar without effort. The big difference here is that the NZ3’s uncovered additional detail in the percussion I haven’t heard before. Or, that I haven’t heard in a while. It seemed out of place at first.
> 
> Opening guitars were laser crisp and well defined in the opener of Days of the New “Now”. Travis’s voice was clear but still had a soft enough edge. However, his voice became a little shouty as he led into his scream’s. You could hear every note and pluck off the guitar strings in the song’s center solo. Like a high speed camera was filming the finger work and then slowing it down so you could catch every last detail.
> 
> Leading into Igorrr’s EDM / metal mashup “Camel Dancefloor”. The NZ3’s ate this song for lunch. Laser precision in guitar, bass, and percussion. Highly dynamic with no signs of stress. The NZ3’s picked up every detail the song could throw at them.
> 
> This is going to sound strange. But, the ONLY reason I would pair a tweeter with the NZ3’s is if I wanted to tame them down a little. They can be so analytical and precise that they can get fatiguing.
> 
> Next up was Pantera's song “This Love”. Again, the opening musical sequence of guitar and percussion was ultra detailed, crisp, and precise. When the metal riff’s hit at minute marker 1:18 the NZ3’s lit it up. Big time. I could sense they started to stress and compress at about 113dB. However, this is so God [email protected] loud you hardly notice it. There was just this massive wall of sound kicking your a$$ . The only speakers in this evaluation I have heard play this song back louder and clearer were the Steven’s Audio HCLD Comp Neo’s.
> 
> Likewise in Knife Parties hardcore EDM tune “Centipede”. The bass can be absolutely pounding, the guitar's blaring, etc… But, you can still hear all the underlying sound effects as they unfold. The centipede’s feast at the end was especially gruesome.
> 
> P.J. Harvey’s “Rub til it Bleeds” was as visceral and powerful as I’ve heard it performed live. The song builds in a grungy garage rock style until guitars and screams come blaring at minute marker 2:15. The NZ3’s don’t place a soft edge to PJ’s voice like other midrange drivers do. She sounds all out pissed throughout the song. Whereas I believe there is supposed to be a conflicting sense of emotion that the Dynaudio E430 can portray. Technically both drivers play the song back without fault. It’s just interesting to see the different ways they go about it.
> 
> Mighty Sam McClain’s song “When the Hurt is Over '' sounded pretty [email protected] good as well. The NZ3’s do a great job bringing out the tone of his steel guitar. Also, the wonderful tone of the piano as key’s go from quiet passages to hammering along. The NZ3’s do a great job offering a ton of dynamic contrast. The same goes for Sam’s voice. The NZ3’s do a great job managing the inflections in his voice as he goes from singing to growling. Sam’s steel guitar goes from wailing to subdued background perfectly. The NZ3’s catch every detail.
> 
> The NZ3’s set a huge open atmosphere in Felix Laband’s song “Black Shoes”. Sounds and effects went as wide as they did deep. Voices seemed to echo in an infinitely open expanse. Placement of each sound was precise. Even while panning across the stage. The NZ3’s tracked this with laser precision. Bam bam bam bam…. The clarinet solo seemed to float effortlessly in void while the accordion was more nailed to center image.
> 
> The final tunes I listened to were mostly technical tracks to determine the spatial imaging of the NZ3’s. Again, they are pretty [email protected] amazing. They can create as good of a 3D image as my Focal Utopia TBM and 3.5WM combo.
> 
> The final song in this set is The Harry James Band tune “Lara”. Here, a big band is deep back into the stage. Piano at the far left side, percussion deep center, horns span from left to right. The trumpet solo steps forward and just pop’s. Backing saxophones stand up allowing them to be heard better. All throughout the song you could tell exactly where each instrument was placed.
> 
> Bonus: Tracey Chapman’s “The Love That You Had” was pleasing to listen to. Tracey’s soft and deep voice came across as emotional and powerful. However, I thought her guitar strum’s sounded a little hollow and unnatural. The song did not sound as warm and relaxed as I like it.
> 
> And this pretty much summarizes the Audible Physics NZ3’s. They do everything right. However, they still seem a little forced and off. They remind me a lot of the Utopia 3.5WM’s until I got them dialed in perfectly. The NZ3’s sound awesome in instrumental music. They sound awesome in most vocal music. However, eventually you’re going to come across a song where something does not seem right. I’m sure this can be corrected with a minor amount of tuning. However, you need to be careful. You don’t want to take away too much of these drivers' details to achieve that.
> 
> Pairing them with a tweeter was shown to calm them down. However, this was at the expense of some image clarity. Again, maybe something that can be corrected with some minor tweaking. One thing is for sure. It is amazing what Audible Physics was able to do with a set of wide band drivers. They took something like the Micro-Precision 5.8 and made it even more detailed and accurate. It truly is something to say that you prefer a 3.5” driver WITHOUT a tweeter. But, the NZ3’s were that set of speakers.
> 
> If you can get these on-axis they would be the perfect speaker for a 2 way front stage. The fact that so much of the music's content is coming from a single point source definitely has advantages. The fact that a set of these currently sells for roughly $600 makes the value proposition a no brainer. The NZ3’s are highly recommended..
> 
> *Audible Physics NZ3 wideband driver rating:*
> 
> Tonality 4 of 4
> Detail 3.5 of 4
> Spaciousness 4 of 4
> Harshness 3 of 4
> Dynamics 4 of 4





Ge0 said:


> *Review of the Audible Physics NZ3 wideband driver*
> View attachment 302230
> 
> View attachment 302231
> 
> View attachment 302232
> 
> View attachment 302233
> 
> View attachment 302234
> 
> 
> NZ3 wideband
> View attachment 302235
> 
> 
> NZ3 with TBM crossed at 3KHz
> View attachment 302236
> 
> 
> NZ3 wideband on axis vs. 45 degrees off axis
> View attachment 302237
> 
> 
> The Audible Physics NZ3. The wideband driver that wants to own you. Perfect tone, highly detailed, extremely dynamic, not so harsh, and an excellent sound stage. But, they are forward and forceful. They will be playing along beautifully. Then, for no reason at all they will stop and punch you in the face. They can be as hot headed as comedian Bill Burr. Or, they can be as sweet as Fran Drescher...
> 
> Patricia barbers “Nardis”. You should just sink into this song and let it flow. That is with the exception of the drum solo mid song. The NZ3’s just kept pushing and pushing throughout the song like they were trying to knock you off the top of the mountain. However, they did so with perfect composure. Their sound staging brings vocals front and center while backing instruments stay back except when called upon to play a solo. The drum solo was dynamic and impactful as ever.
> 
> The NZ3’s plowed through Patricia Barber's fortissimo high notes in her super dynamic vocal solos. This was true for as loud as I cared to turn the volume up. The NZ3’s just did it effortlessly.
> 
> The NZ3’s are even more detailed than Micro-Precision 5.8’s were. It was hard to determine when the paired TBM tweeter was turned on or off. You had to listen very closely. Now ain’t that somethin’.
> 
> Patricia Barber’s song “Too rich for my blood”. The lead vocal position was a little fuzzy with the TBM engaged. However, her position was razor sharp with only the NZ3 wideband playing. It’s nothing short of amazing what they have done with this speaker.
> 
> The NZ3’s were not as aggressive with the TBM’s turned on. The speakers were crossed over at 3KHz 24dB/octave. I went back and listened to “Nardis” and “Too Rich For My Blood” again. The song’s now sounded close to what I was used to hearing them. Some of the edge had been dulled / taken off. It’ debatable if this is better or worse. Later in this review I reveal how I was able to take some edge off by leaving the NZ3’s playing by themselves wideband.
> 
> The NZ3’s played back Saint Saens “Danse Macabre” perfectly. The string section was soft and musical when required to be. Violin strokes alternated between sharp and crisp then to light and playful. The horn section was powerful and well stated. Their climaxes were extremely dynamic and impactful. So much so it took me by surprise. Quiet passages throughout the song were played back soft enough. You can hear every last detail of the percussion sections triangles, xylophones, and brushes. Kettle drum impacts were downright forceful.
> 
> Critical listening of Dave Brubeck's “Strange Meadow Lark”. Dave’s opening piano just flowed perfectly. It had wonderful tonality. Lower notes had plenty of body. Higher notes would just glide off the keys. Paul’s sax entered in lush, warm, and vibrant as it should. Percussion throughout the song was crisp and precise. In the very background you could still make out the slapping of strings on the standup bass.
> 
> In Dave Brubeck’s “Three To Get Ready” opening cymbal strike sounded natural with TBM’s engaged. The opening cymbal strikes were just as detailed with the NZ3 playing wideband. However, the NZ3 accentuated the first tones off the cymbal which made them sound slightly different. Maybe to the point where it did not sound as natural. Mind you, this is EXTREME nitpicking. But, I need to report something .
> 
> Nirvana unplugged sounded “hot” at first. I believe this was due to a dip I was trying to compensate for at 550 Hz. Reducing that compensation from +5dB to +3dB helped mellow things out. I also knocked 2KHz down -2dB. Nirvana “Jesus Doesn’t Want Me For A Sunbeam” is supposed to be a mellow and easy to listen to tune. It seemed aggressive and a bit “shouty” while listening with the NZ3 wideband. Just enough to prevent keeping this song from being a laid back musical experience. For instance, the accordion in this song should just “be there” playing steadily in the background. I felt like the NZ3’s were shoving it in my face at times. Here, here, here, here.... This was weird. Because at the same time the guitars sounded great. Nice tone and detail but perhaps on the sharp side. Kurt’s voice was also rendered really good. Nice and smooth. Just that pesky [email protected] accordion!!! Other songs like “Oh Me” were rendered nearly perfect. Kurt's voice was a little sibilant. Only a few sharp and edgy notes at places like minute marker 1:16, 1:19, and 2:44.
> 
> The Alice in Chains MTV Live Unplugged set sounded great. I even found something new. At 2:32 into “No Excuses” I heard a couple out of tune /missed guitar notes I never noticed before. Layne Staley's voice sounds crisp and natural. The NZ3’s do not have a soft edge like with other speakers. These things bring out every inflection / detail that exists in the recording. No sugar coating. These things just killed the entire Alice in Chains set. So detailed. Maybe too detailed?
> 
> The NZ3’s played back Maggie Koerner’s “Cayute Woman” as powerful as the Micro-Precision 5.8’s. Her voice went from soft and subdued to Roar without effort. The big difference here is that the NZ3’s uncovered additional detail in the percussion I haven’t heard before. Or, that I haven’t heard in a while. It seemed out of place at first.
> 
> Opening guitars were laser crisp and well defined in the opener of Days of the New “Now”. Travis’s voice was clear but still had a soft enough edge. However, his voice became a little shouty as he led into his scream’s. You could hear every note and pluck off the guitar strings in the song’s center solo. Like a high speed camera was filming the finger work and then slowing it down so you could catch every last detail.
> 
> Leading into Igorrr’s EDM / metal mashup “Camel Dancefloor”. The NZ3’s ate this song for lunch. Laser precision in guitar, bass, and percussion. Highly dynamic with no signs of stress. The NZ3’s picked up every detail the song could throw at them.
> 
> This is going to sound strange. But, the ONLY reason I would pair a tweeter with the NZ3’s is if I wanted to tame them down a little. They can be so analytical and precise that they can get fatiguing.
> 
> Next up was Pantera's song “This Love”. Again, the opening musical sequence of guitar and percussion was ultra detailed, crisp, and precise. When the metal riff’s hit at minute marker 1:18 the NZ3’s lit it up. Big time. I could sense they started to stress and compress at about 113dB. However, this is so God [email protected] loud you hardly notice it. There was just this massive wall of sound kicking your a$$ . The only speakers in this evaluation I have heard play this song back louder and clearer were the Steven’s Audio HCLD Comp Neo’s.
> 
> Likewise in Knife Parties hardcore EDM tune “Centipede”. The bass can be absolutely pounding, the guitar's blaring, etc… But, you can still hear all the underlying sound effects as they unfold. The centipede’s feast at the end was especially gruesome.
> 
> P.J. Harvey’s “Rub til it Bleeds” was as visceral and powerful as I’ve heard it performed live. The song builds in a grungy garage rock style until guitars and screams come blaring at minute marker 2:15. The NZ3’s don’t place a soft edge to PJ’s voice like other midrange drivers do. She sounds all out pissed throughout the song. Whereas I believe there is supposed to be a conflicting sense of emotion that the Dynaudio E430 can portray. Technically both drivers play the song back without fault. It’s just interesting to see the different ways they go about it.
> 
> Mighty Sam McClain’s song “When the Hurt is Over '' sounded pretty [email protected] good as well. The NZ3’s do a great job bringing out the tone of his steel guitar. Also, the wonderful tone of the piano as key’s go from quiet passages to hammering along. The NZ3’s do a great job offering a ton of dynamic contrast. The same goes for Sam’s voice. The NZ3’s do a great job managing the inflections in his voice as he goes from singing to growling. Sam’s steel guitar goes from wailing to subdued background perfectly. The NZ3’s catch every detail.
> 
> The NZ3’s set a huge open atmosphere in Felix Laband’s song “Black Shoes”. Sounds and effects went as wide as they did deep. Voices seemed to echo in an infinitely open expanse. Placement of each sound was precise. Even while panning across the stage. The NZ3’s tracked this with laser precision. Bam bam bam bam…. The clarinet solo seemed to float effortlessly in void while the accordion was more nailed to center image.
> 
> The final tunes I listened to were mostly technical tracks to determine the spatial imaging of the NZ3’s. Again, they are pretty [email protected] amazing. They can create as good of a 3D image as my Focal Utopia TBM and 3.5WM combo.
> 
> The final song in this set is The Harry James Band tune “Lara”. Here, a big band is deep back into the stage. Piano at the far left side, percussion deep center, horns span from left to right. The trumpet solo steps forward and just pop’s. Backing saxophones stand up allowing them to be heard better. All throughout the song you could tell exactly where each instrument was placed.
> 
> Bonus: Tracey Chapman’s “The Love That You Had” was pleasing to listen to. Tracey’s soft and deep voice came across as emotional and powerful. However, I thought her guitar strum’s sounded a little hollow and unnatural. The song did not sound as warm and relaxed as I like it.
> 
> And this pretty much summarizes the Audible Physics NZ3’s. They do everything right. However, they still seem a little forced and off. They remind me a lot of the Utopia 3.5WM’s until I got them dialed in perfectly. The NZ3’s sound awesome in instrumental music. They sound awesome in most vocal music. However, eventually you’re going to come across a song where something does not seem right. I’m sure this can be corrected with a minor amount of tuning. However, you need to be careful. You don’t want to take away too much of these drivers' details to achieve that.
> 
> Pairing them with a tweeter was shown to calm them down. However, this was at the expense of some image clarity. Again, maybe something that can be corrected with some minor tweaking. One thing is for sure. It is amazing what Audible Physics was able to do with a set of wide band drivers. They took something like the Micro-Precision 5.8 and made it even more detailed and accurate. It truly is something to say that you prefer a 3.5” driver WITHOUT a tweeter. But, the NZ3’s were that set of speakers.
> 
> If you can get these on-axis they would be the perfect speaker for a 2 way front stage. The fact that so much of the music's content is coming from a single point source definitely has advantages. The fact that a set of these currently sells for roughly $600 makes the value proposition a no brainer. The NZ3’s are highly recommended..
> 
> *Audible Physics NZ3 wideband driver rating:*
> 
> Tonality 4 of 4
> Detail 3.5 of 4
> Spaciousness 4 of 4
> Harshness 3 of 4
> Dynamics 4 of 4


Great review. I’ve had a pair for about 6 months and love them. Your assessment rings very true. Bought a pair of tempo 10’s from a member a couple of months ago but not sure cost beneficial to spend almost 2k more to install.(more dsp channels, fab work, tune etc). I can see the taming benefit and I’ve good sail panels for immersion but they have such a big sound anyhow. Thanks


----------



## DeLander

Ge0 said:


> View attachment 302376
> 
> 
> You cheap muther fugger....


Hey Geo
Do you have any plans to review the paper version of the RS100 ? I think it would be a helpful comparison between an aluminum cone and paper cone midrange to see what kind of sonic differences there are in a controlled environment like this.

Especially for us cheap muther fuggers 😁


----------



## Ge0

DeLander said:


> Hey Geo
> Do you have any plans to review the paper version of the RS100 ? I think it would be a helpful comparison between an aluminum cone and paper cone midrange to see what kind of sonic differences there are in a controlled environment like this.
> 
> Especially for us cheap muther fuggers 😁


I may get to them eventually. For now I have enough to keep me busy for another 6 months.


----------



## DeLander

Ok. Just wondering.
Love what you're doing here. Just exactly why I started coming to this site back in the day.
Keep up the good work.


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## Ge0

DeLander said:


> Ok. Just wondering.
> Love what you're doing here. Just exactly why I started coming to this site back in the day.
> Keep up the good work.


Thanks. I figured this site could use more content than "what subwoofer should I buy", "what's the best speakers", or "Is this amp big enough for my 200W tweeters".


----------



## Isaradia

yeah, the correct questions are what sq mid is also an spl mid and also a sub, and which wagon should i do a massive ib sub in then heavily modify


----------



## Clvol1255

Pretty proud to say that after listening to many of the tracks you’ve used for this review I can hear everything you speak of and my speakers keep their composure very well at max volume although I know at 1 kHz test tone I have a very minor amount of distortion going to my mid range and mid bass but it not audible in these tracks. I’ve listened several times to some new to me tracks you’ve listed such as Patricia barber and Chevelle stuff along with the tracks I’ve already had in my library for years such as Alice In Chains, Nirvana unplugged(one of my all time favorite albums),race against machine kings of Leon and wow. Now I plan to listen to them more and again bc theyre very well recorded. My dash board is ****ing bringing it!


----------



## Ge0

Hey all. It's the kids last week of school. As you might imagine with three boys, they I have a lot of missing homework to complete in the last minutes to avoid going to summer school. It's a mad rush to the end. Therefore, I'm taking a short break from speaker reviews. See you in a few weeks...


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

@Geo

Take care of the family Youngman!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Holmz

Ge0 said:


> Hey all. It's the kids last week of school. As you might imagine with three boys, they I have a lot of missing homework to complete in the last minutes to avoid going to summer school. It's a mad rush to the end. Therefore, I'm taking a short break from speaker reviews. See you in a few weeks...


If the dog eats their homework, then you will have more summer hours available to yourself... 8)


----------



## Ge0

Holmz said:


> If the dog eats their homework, then you will have more summer hours available to yourself... 8)


No. Because I would still need to ride their @sses to get their work done. This would just extend my involvement...


----------



## geolemon

Ge0 said:


> Thanks. I figured this site could use more content than "what subwoofer should I buy", "what's the best speakers", or "Is this amp big enough for my 200W tweeters".


^^ this. ^^

I appreciate the listening rig you have set up, and keeping things equal in that respect (even the choice of a baffle) to make some fair comparisons. Definitely scientific method.

So as I say this I'm also thinking of why dipole can't work in a car, however I think you know enough to make an equally fair rig for a car-
Have you ever thought about making a rig to fit onto the dash/A-pillars? Something oversized, something you'd never want to drive with - removable just literally for exactly what you are doing here - but the in-car version?

I only ask because I basically did some auditioning like you are doing, in my basement while it was freezing outside over the winter - to avoid a full-stop for the winter, I built a rig with a windshield, dash, windows, styrofoam and fiberglass panels to better simulate the acoustics of a car... I also did some listening outside that rig - I don't need to tell you that it does change some things. 
_{EDIT] and I'm not advocating doing what I did - "in car" beats that - my winter playing only gives me a starting point, now that it's nice out again._
Of course, things like "Detail" seemed pretty consistent either way, but other things like impact, and harshness, definitely changed. 

I'm almost over the hill so I understand how limited time is, and my cat and dog don't compare to 3 kids - but it might be fun to re-visit each of these, publish a summary of each in-home audition as a reminder/baseline, then audition them in a car version of an idealized-for-generality above dash setup?


----------



## John richards

John richards said:


> Great review. I’ve had a pair for about 6 months and love them. Your assessment rings very true. Bought a pair of tempo 10’s from a member a couple of months ago but not sure cost beneficial to spend almost 2k more to install.(more dsp channels, fab work, tune etc). I can see the taming benefit and I’ve good sail panels for immersion but they have such a big sound anyhow. Thanks


By the way they sound great in the factory dash locations of 4th gen ram.


----------



## cman

Ge0 said:


> Mids playing at 110dB. Who the h3ll knows what your bass will hit



How does the sensitivity seem on the Xcelsus compared to most of the others? Anything that stood out to you?


----------



## Vancew

Hi guys, really appreciate Ge0's efforts and all the valuable information and insight here. 

I am looking to get a midrange so was just wondering does anyone has any idea how does Micro Precision Z 100 midrange compares to Dynaudio e430, AD MM4 and Xcelsus Xxm325? 

I am running a 2 way with Micro Precision Z tweeters and 7 Midbase fyi.


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

Vancew said:


> Hi guys, really appreciate Ge0's efforts and all the valuable information and insight here.
> 
> I am looking to get a midrange so was just wondering does anyone has any idea how does Micro Precision Z 100 midrange compares to Dynaudio e430, AD MM4 and Xcelsus Xxm325?
> 
> I am running a 2 way with Micro Precision Z tweeters and 7 Midbase fyi.


Welcome to the forum and congrats on your first post.
There is actually a sub-forum based on picking components for your system, and I would suggest starting a thread over there, as to not clutter up another thread.
But from what I have gathered the e430 is almost like the gold standard of car audio midranges along with the focal m line. But the price tag absolutely reflects it. I have heard MANY people say that the xcelsus xxm325 is a great and quite close alternative to those at a much more attainable price point for many people. I actually plan on trying a pair myself sometime soon. 
The other 2 I am less versed in.


----------



## Isaradia

If they're looking at the Z series, then the e430 would absolutely be the comparison point, not the xxm325. the price on the z mids is hard to pin down, but i expect it to be closer to the dyns than the xxms


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

Isaradia said:


> If they're looking at the Z series, then the e430 would absolutely be the comparison point, not the xxm325. the price on the z mids is hard to pin down, but i expect it to be closer to the dyns than the xxms


Price point isn't everything. Some people would rather save $1700 dollars and gave something that is also very good. If the difference is let's say 5% better, that is a very expensive 5% that even people who are willing to pay 2k for the best may not see the value in. Anyway. Give the issue it's own thread


----------



## Ge0

Vancew said:


> Hi guys, really appreciate Ge0's efforts and all the valuable information and insight here.
> 
> I am looking to get a midrange so was just wondering does anyone has any idea how does Micro Precision Z 100 midrange compares to Dynaudio e430, AD MM4 and Xcelsus Xxm325?
> 
> I am running a 2 way with Micro Precision Z tweeters and 7 Midbase fyi.


You could always read the review of all four of those drivers. They are all posted in this thread.


----------



## Catalyx

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Price point isn't everything. Some people would rather save $1700 dollars and gave something that is also very good. If the difference is let's say 5% better, that is a very expensive 5% that even people who are willing to pay 2k for the best may not see the value in. Anyway. Give the issue it's own thread


At least 95% of people would be more than happy with a well installed and properly tuned system using affordable equipment, even if they want to use generally high end options. Only obsessives chase the tail end of the ROI bell curve where you pay $1K for 1% improvements with ultra pricey gear that really has a much greater psychoacoustic effect than objectively measured results. If you have the money it truly does increase your enjoyment of the system over time so I've found the financial hit more than worth all the satisfied listening experiences.


----------



## Holmz

@Ge0 , so... no spoon feeding?


----------



## Isaradia

Ge0-logy, the study of speakers, as reviewed by the...


This is a consolidation thread, please do not comment here, any comments should be made in the real thread HERE. All thanks go to @Ge0 as well as the lovely contributors who loaned him drivers. This comparison my not be perfect, but it is wide reaching, very detailed, and, most importantly...




www.diymobileaudio.com





Did i miss when you did the Z series?


----------



## Vancew

Really enjoyed this thread and your interesting discussion and lovely replies.

So far the Z tweeters and the 7 series midbase has been amazing for me. I am a music junkie including trance and that's why I prefer 7 midbase as compared to Z as I believe it provides stronger punch and I was also worried about the fragility and the durability of the Z midbass. (did I think too much? 😂)

It has come to a point for me that I wish to do justice to the current setup I have but if the Xcelsus Xxm325 midrange is at least 95% of the performance of the dyns and Z 100, I will gladly accept it. But it will be another matter if the difference is about 10% or higher as I rather go for top range and do not need to think about upgrading again, and that means paying top dollars for it if necessary.

Have read the whole tread and only noticed the review of the MP 5 series full range that's why I posted this question here. Same as Isaradia, I can't find a MP Z midrange review here and that's the reason I posted the question here.

Many apologies if is really the wrong thread and will greatly appreciate if someone can direct me to relevant or any useful thread. Thank you in advance.


----------



## Ge0

Isaradia said:


> Ge0-logy, the study of speakers, as reviewed by the...
> 
> 
> This is a consolidation thread, please do not comment here, any comments should be made in the real thread HERE. All thanks go to @Ge0 as well as the lovely contributors who loaned him drivers. This comparison my not be perfect, but it is wide reaching, very detailed, and, most importantly...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.diymobileaudio.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did i miss when you did the Z series?


I Guess I did miss the Z. I think I did the 5.8.

Regardless, nothing is going touch the E430. At least not that I have heard.


----------



## Ge0

Holmz said:


> @Ge0 , so... no spoon feeding?


No. My son lost all of my spoons. He sneaks off to eat ice cream and forgets to return things LOL!!!


----------



## Vancew

Ge0 said:


> I Guess I did miss the Z. I think I did the 5.8.
> 
> Regardless, nothing is going touch the E430. At least not that I have heard.


Thank you Ge0. Let's hope the Z is not too far off.


----------



## cman

Here is another driver to think about.. I do not think anyone has mentioned this one yet... JL Audio C7-350 - I know i know compared to some of the other units being tested it might not sound like much but the C7's from testing i have seen are some really high end drivers. on the german car and auto website hihitest.de they did frequency response testing and they were some of the best i have ever seen in fact..

There has only been two drivers in these testing with poly cones the Dynaudio and the Audio Development..both which seemed to score high. I have high hopes for the C7's if they ever make their way in here... i like the poly cone and the inverted one piece dust cap... it looks different but its similar to the focal and the dynaudio in that specific regard (the one piece dust cap...)


----------



## Mullings

I can’t believe that I’m a JL fanboy any have never tried the C7’s in a sq build, I’m ordering a pair


----------



## cman

Mullings said:


> I can’t believe that I’m a JL fanboy any have never tried the C7’s in a sq build, I’m ordering a pair


Yeah Erin H mentioned that JL owns a klippel machine and does development in house. I am not even a JL fan, but that plus the objective review i saw made me extremely interested as well. Retail is $399 per single driver


----------



## Catalyx

Someone grab a pair and contribute!

Jl audio c7 350cm | eBay


----------



## cman

I bought a pair of Xcelsus XXM325... They sound just as good as @Ge0 said they do. Very enjoyable to listen to.


----------



## Ge0

There is a well known forum member here that was going to send a set of C7's. However, I am so backlogged right now I told him to hold off. I can spend the next several months just listening to Catalyx's stuff.


----------



## Catalyx

Here's an updated list of reviews:


*Focal Utopia TBXP beryllium dome tweeter paired with 3.5wm midrange*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *4* of 4​Spaciousness *4* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4​Dynamics *3.5* of 4​
*Stevens Audio CompNeo HLCD compression horns paired with Focal 3.5wm*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3* of 4​Spaciousness *4* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3* of 4​Dynamics *11* of 4​
*Morel Supremo Piccolo tweeter paired with Focal Utopia 3.5wm midrange*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *4* of 4​Spaciousness *4* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *4* of 4​Dynamics *3* of 4​
*Alpine SPX Pro (eBay) paired with Dynaudio E430*

Tonality *3* of 4​Detail *3* of 4​Spaciousness *3* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *2.5* of 4​Dynamics *2.5* of 4​
*Focal Utopia M TBM Beryllium dome tweeter paired with 3.5wm midrange*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *4* of 4​Spaciousness *3.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *4* of 4​Dynamics *3.5* of 4​
*Xcelsus XXT30 tweeter paired with Brax ML3, Focal 3.5wm midrange, and Xcelsus XXM325 midrange*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3.5* of 4​Spaciousness *3.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4​Dynamics *3* of 4​
*Xcelsus XXM325 midrange paired with XXT30 and Focal Utopia TBM tweeters*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3.5* of 4​Spaciousness *3.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4​Dynamics *3.5* of 4​
*Dynaudio MF171 Midrange paired with MT171 tweeter and ScanSpeak D3004 Silk tweeter*

Tonality *3* of 4​Detail *2* of 4​Spaciousness *2* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4​Dynamics *2.5* of 4​
*Dynaudio MT171 paired with Focal 3.5wm and Xcelsus XXM325 midranges*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3* of 4​Spaciousness *2.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3* of 4​Dynamics *3* of 4​
*Stevens Audio Soft Dome Tweeter paired with Focal Utopia 3.5wm midranges*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3.5* of 4​Spaciousness *2.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3* of 4​Dynamics *3.5* of 4​
*Focal Utopia M TBM Beryllium dome tweeter paired with 3.5wm midrange - Revision 2*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *4* of 4​Spaciousness *3.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *4* of 4​Dynamics *3.5* of 4​
*Dayton Audio RS100 midrange paired with ScanSpeak D3004 silk dome tweeter*

Tonality *2.5* of 4​Detail *3* of 4​Spaciousness *3* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *2* of 4​Dynamics *3* of 4​
*Focal Utopia M 3.5WM paired with TBXP, TBM, and Morel Supremo Piccolo*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *4* of 4​Spaciousness *4* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4​Dynamics *3.5* of 4​
*ScanSpeak Revelator 12M paired with D3004 silk textile dome tweeter*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3* of 4​Spaciousness *2.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4​Dynamics *2.5* of 4​
*ScanSpeak 10F midrange paired with D3004 silk dome midrange*

Tonality *3* of 4​Detail *2.5* of 4​Spaciousness *2* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *2* of 4​Dynamics *4* of 4​
*Brax ML3 paired with ScanSpeak D3004 and Focal TBM tweeter*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3* of 4​Spaciousness *2.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4​Dynamics *2.5* of 4​
*Audio Development MM4 midrange with MM1 tweeters*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *4* of 4​Spaciousness *3.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3* of 4​Dynamics *4* of 4​
*BLAM MS3 midrange and TSM25 tweeter, MS3 full range, and MS3 with Focal Utopia M TBM tweeter*

Tonality *3* of 4​Detail *3* of 4​Spaciousness *3* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4​Dynamics *3* of 4​
*Micro-Precision 5.8 fullrange and sometimes with Focal Utopia M TBM tweeter*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3* of 4​Spaciousness *3.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4​Dynamics *3* of 4​
*Morel MT-350 soft dome tweeter paired with Focal 3.5wm midrange*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3* of 4​Spaciousness *2.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3* of 4​Dynamics *3* of 4​
*Kravchenko KAXBLT dome tweeters paired with Dynaudio E430 midranges*

Tonality *2.5* of 4​Detail *1.5* of 4​Spaciousness *1.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *4* of 4​Dynamics *2* of 4​
*Audible Physics NZ3 wideband driver*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3.5* of 4​Spaciousness *4* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3* of 4​Dynamics *4* of 4​
*ScanSpeak D3004/6040 Beryllium dome tweeter (also known as Scan Be) paired with DynAudio E430 midrange*

Tonality *3* of 4​Detail *4* of 4​Spaciousness *3* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *2* of 4​Dynamics *3* of 4​
*ScanSpeak D3004/6020 - (Scan D3004 silk) paired with Scan 12m, Dyn E430, and Focal 3.5WM*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *3* of 4​Spaciousness *3* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *3.5* of 4​Dynamics *3* of 4​
*Dynaudio MD102 paired with E430 midrange*

Tonality *4* of 4​Detail *2.5* of 4​Spaciousness *3* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *4* of 4​Dynamics *2.5* of 4​
*Illusion Audio Copper Beryllium dome tweeter paired with Dynaudio E430*

Tonality *2.5* of 4​Detail *3* of 4​Spaciousness *2.5* of 4​Harshness ( lack of ) *2.5* of 4​Dynamics *3* of 4​


----------



## Isaradia

i hate to do this to you, but if you get the chance to listen to some CDT unity8's id really love to hear your thoughts, may even send you a set if you ever free up, the re-man's are cheap enough i could justify a test set, there will be something with dash speakers ill be able to use them in eventually


----------



## Naptownsoldier14

I am running the dynaudio e430 right now and can confirm its amazing with the scanspeak be I never enjoyed the small ones I am useing the 6640be and they are the best tweeter I have ever used better than the piccolo and Esotar2 110 I had befor them one thing they take along time to break in unlike soft domes that sound pretty much the same right out of the box the scanspeak be needs alot of break in the 6640 is allso in my eyes much better than the newer focal utopia m tweeter should give them a shot one day after long break in you won't regret it they are big but the wave guide can be trimed down some to help with install in a car thanks for your contribution to the community


----------



## Ge0

Naptownsoldier14 said:


> I am running the dynaudio e430 right now and can confirm its amazing with the scanspeak be I never enjoyed the small ones I am useing the 6640be and they are the best tweeter I have ever used better than the piccolo and Esotar2 110 I had befor them one thing they take along time to break in unlike soft domes that sound pretty much the same right out of the box the scanspeak be needs alot of break in the 6640 is allso in my eyes much better than the newer focal utopia m tweeter should give them a shot one day after long break in you won't regret it they are big but the wave guide can be trimed down some to help with install in a car thanks for your contribution to the community


Everyone has their preference. I'm sure they sound awesome. But, the full format 6640 may be hard for most to package in a car. Have you listened to the Accuton C30 ceramic dome tweeters? They are freaking amazing to me.


----------



## geolemon

Ge0 said:


> Everyone has their preference. I'm sure they sound awesome. But, the full format 6640 may be hard for most to package in a car. Have you listened to the Accuton C30 ceramic dome tweeters? They are freaking amazing to me.


Accuton C30 compared to your Focal TBM would be a comparison to tune into for sure.

Those C30 look like they'd be as difficult from an install perspective as a full format home tweeter though, maybe more so even. Might as well be a mile of depth. But I'd love to hear them.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


----------



## Porsche

geolemon said:


> Accuton C30 compared to your Focal TBM would be a comparison to tune into for sure.
> 
> Those C30 look like they'd be as difficult from an install perspective as a full format home tweeter though, maybe more so even. Might as well be a mile of depth. But I'd love to hear them.
> 
> Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


difficult to install, how? i have been using them for years, they are about 1.5"d and maybe 2" round. they blow the focal away


----------



## Naptownsoldier14

Ge0 said:


> Everyone has their preference. I'm sure they sound awesome. But, the full format 6640 may be hard for most to package in a car. Have you listened to the Accuton C30 ceramic dome tweeters? They are freaking amazing to me.


I have heard the home varient accuton c30 and the bd20 dimond both very nice I haven't gotten to demo the new automotive stuff yet I have my eye on the new c100am midrange yea the 6640 is big but you can trim down the front plate to about the same size as the piccolo just so much better than the small 6040 version absolutely agree so much with sound is subjective I would allso like to demo the new scanspeak ellipticor tweeter the smaller one d2404


----------



## Ge0

Naptownsoldier14 said:


> I have heard the home varient accuton c30 and the bd20 dimond both very nice I haven't gotten to demo the new automotive stuff yet I have my eye on the new c100am midrange yea the 6640 is big but you can trim down the front plate to about the same size as the piccolo just so much better than the small 6040 version absolutely agree so much with sound is subjective I would allso like to demo the new scanspeak ellipticor tweeter the smaller one d2404


Unfortunately the 6040 was garbage in comparison to others I've tested in the same price range. And I had high hopes for them...


----------



## geolemon

Porsche said:


> difficult to install, how? i have been using them for years, they are about 1.5"d and maybe 2" round. they blow the focal away


The dimensions on the Accuton are 3.25" square and 2.25" deep. That's huge as tweeters go. Location opportunities are all dependent on size not being prohibitive. It's rare to have a vehicle where your ideal tweeter location offers unlimited depth.

Even the Focal TBM are large-ish at 2.5"x2.75", but aren't anywhere as deep - they are actually shallow at 1/2" deep. Much easier to accommodate.

I'm surprised at the "blow them away" comment. I'd expect those two to be very competitive.


----------



## Porsche

geolemon said:


> The dimensions on the Accuton are 3.25" square and 2.25" deep. That's huge as tweeters go. Location opportunities are all dependent on size not being prohibitive. It's rare to have a vehicle where your ideal tweeter location offers unlimited depth.
> 
> Even the Focal TBM are large-ish at 2.5"x2.75", but aren't anywhere as deep - they are actually shallow at 1/2" deep. Much easier to accommodate.
> 
> I'm surprised at the "blow them away" comment. I'd expect those two to be very competitive.


accustom makes a c30 ceramic dome that is slightly over 1" deep and slightly over 2" round, i have been using them in my cars for years. an yes, IMO they are superior over the focal but i have never been a fan of focal, even with there home speakers


----------



## clange2485

Porsche said:


> accustom makes a c30 ceramic dome that is slightly over 1" deep and slightly over 2" round, i have been using them in my cars for years. an yes, IMO they are superior over the focal but i have never been a fan of focal, even with there home speakers


accustom not familiar these folk?


----------



## geolemon

Porsche said:


> accustom makes a c30 ceramic dome that is slightly over 1" deep and slightly over 2" round, i have been using them in my cars for years. an yes, IMO they are superior over the focal but i have never been a fan of focal, even with there home speakers


Is that this? Accuton Cell C30-6-358 Ceramic Dome Tweeter
Intriguing. Pretty "normal" size compared to the one I was thinking of.

Still a pricey tweeter, but half the price of the Focal Berylliums.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## Ge0

geolemon said:


> Is that this? Accuton Cell C30-6-358 Ceramic Dome Tweeter
> Intriguing. Pretty "normal" size compared to the one I was thinking of.
> 
> Still a pricey tweeter, but half the price of the Focal Berylliums.
> 
> Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


Yep. That's it.


----------



## SkizeR

geolemon said:


> The dimensions on the Accuton are 3.25" square and 2.25" deep. That's huge as tweeters go. Location opportunities are all dependent on size not being prohibitive. It's rare to have a vehicle where your ideal tweeter location offers unlimited depth.
> 
> Even the Focal TBM are large-ish at 2.5"x2.75", but aren't anywhere as deep - they are actually shallow at 1/2" deep. Much easier to accommodate.
> 
> I'm surprised at the "blow them away" comment. I'd expect those two to be very competitive.


You are looking at some of the home stuff. The Automotive stuff is a totally new design and line up and has more traditional style size and mounting. The home stuff also doesn't last very long in a car due to materials and glues used. They expand/contract and break down with temp changes and eventually fail.


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## geolemon

I'm intrigued.
I used to sell Focal and those Berylliums were out of my reach even at dealer cost...
Now that I'm back in IT leadership it's not such a stretch but - still didn't spring for a set with this new install (yet).

The Accutons - I never would have thought they'd be half the price of Berylliums.
I want to read how they compare if I can't hear them 

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR

geolemon said:


> I'm intrigued.
> I used to sell Focal and those Berylliums were out of my reach even at dealer cost...
> Now that I'm back in IT leadership it's not such a stretch but - still didn't spring for a set with this new install (yet).
> 
> The Accutons - I never would have thought they'd be half the price of Berylliums.
> I want to read how they compare if I can't hear them
> 
> Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


The automotive grade ones are a totally new design with the ability to actually last in a car and are definitely not half the cost lol. If you are buying the home ones, you will be buying them over and over again. They are not able to handle the automotive environment.


----------



## Porsche

SkizeR said:


> If you are buying the home ones, you will be buying them over and over again. They are not able to handle the automotive environment.


hmmmm


----------



## Niebur3

I just wonder how Scan Speak home audio drivers lasts fine in a car.


----------



## Ge0

SkizeR said:


> The automotive grade ones are a totally new design with the ability to actually last in a car and are definitely not half the cost lol. If you are buying the home ones, you will be buying them over and over again. They are not able to handle the automotive environment.


What goes bad on them? My C30's are built like a brick sh!t brick house.


----------



## SkizeR

Aside from being completely new designs that will be applied to the home versions later, there are a few things that will cause the home versions to fail over time in an automotive environment, and being built like a brick sh!t house has nothing to do with it, unfortunately. One of them I've seen first hand. First, there is no corrosion protection in the home versions. The pole plates and magnet will corrode. This is very obviously bad and can easily cause failures. The second is the glues used on the magnet and plates. The home versions use glue that is more economically friendly but gets the job done for normal home use. But for cars, it's too brittle and does not have a low enough working temperature. There are cases where the glue failed and destroyed the driver. If it doesn't fully break, the magnet will slightly shift and cause the coil to no longer be concentric. This is very audible. The third is the spider. The spiders in the home version are great... for home use. Again, comes down to the automotive environment and the crazy temperature swings. The resins used in the home version have an operating temperature from 10~ Celcius to 30~ Celcius. Below that rating, a couple of things happen. One, the resins used in the spider stiffen up. As the spider stiffens, it is changing literally every parameter of the driver. You have a totally different driver than what you did the day before. Also, the resins become brittle and the spiders can break. Also, the glue used for the spider landing is again, not able to handle these temps for the same reason. When it gets too hot, the resins loosen up and again, you are left with a totally different driver with a suspension that is now too loose. I'm sure you can imagine what happens now. I'd also imagine that they start to break down. Not 100% sure on that though. Then we have the surround. The surrounds in the home version have no UV protection. I have photos of what happens when you use them in a car. It's not pretty. Even before it gets ugly, the tweeters surround (which is their only form of suspension) will loosen and shift. Again, the voice coil will be shifted causing issues that are audible.

The Accuton Automotive aftermarket drivers are actually born from Accutons relatively new relationship with Bugatti. VW Group approached them to do the audio system for the Bugatti Chiron, and this caused them to develop totally new drivers (not modified versions of their current models) that are actually designed for, and designed to handle the automotive environment. They have operating ranges from well below freezing all the way up to 85 Celcius.


----------



## geolemon

SkizeR said:


> The automotive grade ones are a totally new design with the ability to actually last in a car and are definitely not half the cost lol. If you are buying the home ones, you will be buying them over and over again. They are not able to handle the automotive environment.


No, I'm talking about the ones I linked after originally commenting that there are plenty of OTHER reasons why the home ones would be limiting:



geolemon said:


> Is that this? Accuton Cell C30-6-358 Ceramic Dome Tweeter
> Intriguing. Pretty "normal" size compared to the one I was thinking of.
> 
> Still a pricey tweeter, but half the price of the Focal Berylliums.
> 
> Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk




Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


----------



## Naptownsoldier14

Ge0 said:


> Unfortunately the 6040 was garbage in comparison to others I've tested in the same price range. And I had high hopes for them...


Since following this for some time now I went out and bought the small 6040 just to see how it compares to my 6640 your absolutely right there not very good at all they sound like they have a massive resonance smack in the middle of there audible frequency response no comparison to there big brother I was going to use them to make a set of computer monitors but there just awful sad very rare miss for scanspeak the 6640 with the aircirc motor and larger back volume is still one of the best I've heard they do take a considerable amount of break in time and I allso absolutely agree with you on the e430 I have sold and rebought that speaker 5 or 6 times nothing has bin able to beat it so I keep going back thanks for your contribution to the community


----------



## Ge0

Current status. In hospital. Hopefully will be home early next week.


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> Current status. In hospital. Hopefully will be home early next week.


Hope you get better soon @Ge0.


----------



## SNCTMPL

Get better soon, this place needs you. Sending thoughts your way.


----------



## Rich.E.Rich

Ge0 said:


> Current status. In hospital. Hopefully will be home early next week.


Sorry to hear that Ge0, get well soon!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Blu

Wishing you a speedy recovery @Ge0 
I enjoy your posts!


----------



## THX0849

Ge0 said:


> Current status. In hospital. Hopefully will be home early next week.


Hey healthy man, all the best to you and yours!

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## bbfoto

Ahhhh Crap, @Ge0 !!!

Take care, mate! Your health is more important than ANYTHING. Here's to a speedy recovery.


----------



## Ge0

Thx for understanding the delay. I was trying to avoid going to hospital but lost that bet... I had hidden conditions that nearly killed me.


----------



## Mullings

All the best with your recovery Geo


----------



## Niebur3

Sending well wishes your way.


----------



## dgage

Get better soon Ge0.


----------



## geolemon

Ge0 said:


> Thx for understanding the delay. I was trying to avoid going to hospital but lost that bet... I had hidden conditions that nearly killed me.


I'll take this as a good sign that you are over that hurdle?
Get better quick!

For your own health - some delay on this thread won't hurt anyone.


----------



## Gurpreet

I hope you get well soon


----------



## jadair18

thank you so much for this and feel better.


----------



## Lloyd_Lemon

Get well soon bud!


----------



## Catalyx

Has anyone heard from George recently? For a couple weeks I've been trying to reach him here and by phone with no luck so really hope he's okay.


----------



## clange2485

Talked with him earlier, he’s in the hospital at the moment and should be out in a week and back to listening.


----------



## Catalyx

Great to hear!


----------



## Ge0

Catalyx said:


> Has anyone heard from George recently? For a couple weeks I've been trying to reach him here and by phone with no luck so really hope he's okay.


You tried calling? Hmm, never received it. Maybe spam filters?

Leaving hospital tomorrow to go to physical rehab facility for a week or two. Then home. I'll keep y'all posted


----------



## SkizeR

HES ALIIIIIIIIVE!!!! WOOOOOO


----------



## RyuTsuiSen

SkizeR said:


> HES ALIIIIIIIIVE!!!! WOOOOOO


This lol, glad to hear from you Ge0 

Heal up well!

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> You tried calling? Hmm, never received it. Maybe spam filters?
> 
> Leaving hospital tomorrow to go to physical rehab facility for a week or two. Then home. I'll keep y'all posted


Great to hear from you man! Glad you are getting out of the hospital. We were starting to worry.


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

Ge0 said:


> You tried calling? Hmm, never received it. Maybe spam filters?
> 
> Leaving hospital tomorrow to go to physical rehab facility for a week or two. Then home. I'll keep y'all posted


Good to see you back up and at it! Keep yourself together first, we audio nerds absolutely take second stage.


----------



## dgage

Was getting worried about you Ge0. Great to hear you're making progress. Get better soon!


----------



## geolemon

That is one long hospital stay! That must have been terrible. PT up and get healthy, get comfortable, get back on your feet. No rush.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings

Look what showed up in the mail yesterday, the xcellsus 4” prototype and the 6.5” spiderless is on its way.


----------



## JCsAudio

Mullings said:


> Look what showed up in the mail yesterday, the xcellsus 4” prototype and the 6.5” spiderless is on its way.


Are you playing with those Marvel action figures again. Dont you think you’re a little too old for that now. 😁


----------



## bertholomey

JCsAudio said:


> Are you playing with those Marvel action figures again. Dont you think you’ll a little too old for that now.


Ha! I saw that too - I was wondering if that came in the speaker box - like a little surprise! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Elektra

Mullings said:


> Look what showed up in the mail yesterday, the xcellsus 4” prototype and the 6.5” spiderless is on its way.


That must have come from myside of the world as they sent that driver to him first and then he shipped it to yourside…

They say it’s a lot better than the 3.5” driver… 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings

JCsAudio said:


> Are you playing with those Marvel action figures again. Dont you think you’ll a little too old for that now. 😁


😂😂😂😂😂 nope


----------



## bbfoto

Mullings said:


> Look what showed up in the mail yesterday, the xcellsus 4” prototype and the 6.5” spiderless is on its way.


Nice, Kevin!

Can you do all of us a favor and let us know the following physical dimensional measurements for fitment purposes???...

Overall Diameter (without mounting tabs):
Overall Diameter Including Mounting Tabs (outside tip of one tab to the outside tip of the 180° opposite tab):
Top Mounting Depth:
Cutout/Mounting Hole Diameter:
Diameter & Height of Magnet Assembly:

This would be greatly appreciated by all! 

Any T/S parameters or any other specs you might have would be appreciated as well, particularly the driver's *Fs*.

I do like having the break-away mounting tabs.

Unfortunately, it looks like that Double-Roll Surround adds quite a bit extra to the overall diameter.  I would guess that it's most likely necessary in order to stabilize/linearize the movement of the cone and keep the coil centered in the gap since there is no traditional spider? Though I would guess that the outer roll in the surround pretty much remains fairly static during excursion. TBD

I'd be interested to see what diffraction effects, IMD, and modes/resonances/breakups that particular surround might produce in the FR and impedance plot?

We really need to get one of these to @ErinH once the design is finalized and production units are available. Would really like to have Klippel data on the others as well. 

Looking forward to seeing the 6.5", too!


----------



## Mullings

Elektra said:


> That must have come from myside of the world as they sent that driver to him first and then he shipped it to yourside…
> 
> They say it’s a lot better than the 3.5” driver…
> 
> View attachment 313110
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep, it came straight from Johannesburg South Africa from the man himself, I don’t have time for myself these days but I’ll test them in the shop demo car one of these days, the spiderless 6” is on its way too along with a Prototype sub and amplifier. My work truck wowed them at SVR so they’re looking forward to my feedback along with a few more people before full production


Elektra said:


> That must have come from myside of the world as they sent that driver to him first and then he shipped it to yourside…
> 
> They say it’s a lot better than the 3.5” driver…
> 
> View attachment 313110
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings

bbfoto said:


> Nice, Kevin!
> 
> Can you do all of us a favor and let us know the following physical dimensional measurements for fitment purposes???...
> 
> Overall Diameter (without mounting tabs):
> Overall Diameter Including Mounting Tabs (outside tip of one tab to the outside tip of the 180° opposite tab):
> Top Mounting Depth:
> Cutout/Mounting Hole Diameter:
> Diameter & Height of Magnet Assembly:
> 
> This would be greatly appreciated by all!
> 
> Any T/S parameters or any other specs you might have would be appreciated as well, particularly the driver's *Fs*.
> 
> I do like having the break-away mounting tabs.
> 
> Unfortunately, it looks like that Double-Roll Surround adds quite a bit extra to the overall diameter.  I would guess that it's most likely necessary in order to stabilize/linearize the movement of the cone and keep the coil centered in the gap since there is no traditional spider? Though I would guess that the outer roll in the surround pretty much remains fairly static during excursion. TBD
> 
> I'd be interested to see what diffraction effects, IMD, and modes/resonances/breakups that particular surround might produce in the FR and impedance plot?
> 
> We really need to get one of these to @ErinH once the design is finalized and production units are available. Would really like to have Klippel data on the others as well.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing the 6.5", too!


Definitely, I’ll post all the measurements later and see if I can get the TS parameter as well.


----------



## Truthunter

Mullings said:


> ... I don’t have time for myself these days but I’ll test them in the shop demo car one of these days...


Well, I have time... I'll be there in 10min to pick them up!😁


----------



## SkizeR

Mullings said:


> Definitely, I’ll post all the measurements later and see if I can get the TS parameter as well.


Do they have frequency response and impedance graphs as well?


----------



## Mullings

Truthunter said:


> Well, I have time... I'll be there in 10min to pick them up!😁


You know that if you want to hear them you can come pick them up


----------



## Mullings

SkizeR said:


> Do they have frequency response and impedance graphs as well?


All I got is just the speakers with no form of documentation, I have datsv3 coming in the mail so I’ll get that info soon


----------



## cman

Mullings said:


> All I got is just the speakers with no form of documentation, I have datsv3 coming in the mail so I’ll get that info soon



Please post pics when you have them.. I would love to see what the spiderless looks like from behind the cone.. I saw the prototype xcelsus amps in pics and they looked exceptionally well thought out.. I look forward to seeing the 6.5" and amplifier especially..


----------



## JCsAudio

If the guy behind Xcelsus is the same guy who was involved in the development of DLS amplifiers then I’m interested in knowing more about those Xcelsus amplifiers.


----------



## Mullings

JCsAudio said:


> If the guy behind Xcelsus is the same guy who was involved in the development of DLS amplifiers then I’m interested in knowing more about those Xcelsus amplifiers.


He is, I think the amplifier is class A on 2 channels and AB on the rest, sorry about the late response guys, I only have this time to check messages, my days are super crazy.


----------



## Elektra

Mullings said:


> Yep, it came straight from Johannesburg South Africa from the man himself, I don’t have time for myself these days but I’ll test them in the shop demo car one of these days, the spiderless 6” is on its way too along with a Prototype sub and amplifier. My work truck wowed them at SVR so they’re looking forward to my feedback along with a few more people before full production


Thought so because my friend who is the importer here said he shipped it to the US - it’s a prototype apparently…

The 6 channel is apparently very nice - I am hoping to try it in January when one arrives here


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

Xcelsus are also redoing the DLS TA2 with a new and improved design apparently that has already started and a prototype should be out before the end of the year… 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings

Elektra said:


> Xcelsus are also redoing the DLS TA2 with a new and improved design apparently that has already started and a prototype should be out before the end of the year…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I see you have a insider lol, yes it’s almost completed


----------



## Mullings

These are a go for me, distortion is evidently lower because the resolution is better than the xxm325’s which was already one of my favorite midrange’s, separation is even better defined with a more vivid and lifelike sound. I’m quite contempt with the way the shop truck sounds but I was never the one that “settles for” so I’ll be making new pods even though it’s best to have different options to demo to customers. I only have one fault with them and it’s with the mounting option, it presently can only be mounted with the tabs which is useless especially in a A pillar build so I’ll be drilling four tiny holes on the rim of the speakers then share it with the guys at Xcellsus so that it can be added for production. Spiderless 6.5” and waveguide tweeters should be here Monday or Tuesday and the 6.5’s comes with even more hype the these 4’s so we will see.


----------



## Elektra

Mullings said:


> These are a go for me, distortion is evidently lower because the resolution is better than the xxm325’s which was already one of my favorite midrange’s, separation is even better defined with a more vivid and lifelike sound. I’m quite contempt with the way the shop truck sounds but I was never the one that “settles for” so I’ll be making new pods even though it’s best to have different options to demo to customers. I only have one fault with them and it’s with the mounting option, it presently can only be mounted with the tabs which is useless especially in a A pillar build so I’ll be drilling four tiny holes on the rim of the speakers then share it with the guys at Xcellsus so that it can be added for production. Spiderless 6.5” and waveguide tweeters should be here Monday or Tuesday and the 6.5’s comes with even more hype the these 4’s so we will see.


Nice… how low can they play? And can they play low in a IB install? 

I think I’ll get a set as well… 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## preston

Been thinking of picking up a set of xxm325 to compare to my Scanspeak 12m after all the raves here and opinions putting it a step above the Scan.
But now I think I'll wait for the 4" !
Tuned in for more info on this speaker.


----------



## Mullings

Elektra said:


> Nice… how low can they play? And can they play low in a IB install?
> 
> I think I’ll get a set as well…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have them 250hz-3000hz here, David want me to use them from 200hz but they’re in towels now so after the pods are complete I’ll play with them some more, I have the dats but I’m getting the t/s parameters for them and the 6.5” shortly so I’ll post those but I have no doubt in these crushing this on going speaker test, they’re that good.


----------



## Elektra

Mullings said:


> I have them 250hz-3000hz here, David want me to use them from 200hz but they’re in towels now so after the pods are complete I’ll play with them some more, I have the dats but I’m getting the t/s parameters for them and the 6.5” shortly so I’ll post those but I have no doubt in these crushing this on going speaker test, they’re that good.


Sounds good - I’ll look at a set… how do you like the mounting brackets this may make the pod bigger than it really needs to be…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings

Elektra said:


> Sounds good - I’ll look at a set… how do you like the mounting brackets this may make the pod bigger than it really needs to be…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I’m gonna break the tabs off but I’m gonna measure everything first as requested but it’s no secret what mids will be in the AudioWizə competition car


----------



## cman

Mullings said:


> These are a go for me, distortion is evidently lower because the resolution is better than the xxm325’s which was already one of my favorite midrange’s, separation is even better defined with a more vivid and lifelike sound. I’m quite contempt with the way the shop truck sounds but I was never the one that “settles for” so I’ll be making new pods even though it’s best to have different options to demo to customers. I only have one fault with them and it’s with the mounting option, it presently can only be mounted with the tabs which is useless especially in a A pillar build so I’ll be drilling four tiny holes on the rim of the speakers then share it with the guys at Xcellsus so that it can be added for production. Spiderless 6.5” and waveguide tweeters should be here Monday or Tuesday and the 6.5’s comes with even more hype the these 4’s so we will see.



Bieliesma tweeter?


----------



## Mullings

cman said:


> Bieliesma tweeter?


Yes sir, when I hear better I’ll change them lol, these IMO are the best small format tweeters on the market


----------



## preston

Mullings said:


> Yes sir, when I hear better I’ll change them lol, these IMO are the best small format tweeters on the market


Are you running the T25B ? Silks or Belly's (have you heard both ) ?


----------



## MythosDreamLab

I'm worried about Geo, hasn't posted here in 27 days...


----------



## Patriot83

MythosDreamLab said:


> I'm worried about Geo, hasn't posted here in 27 days...


Sounds like he's going through a difficult time. We should all say some prayers for him and family. 

P.S. You don't have to be religious to say a prayer for someone.


----------



## Mullings

preston said:


> Are you running the T25B ? Silks or Belly's (have you heard both ) ?


I have both and love both, those are the beryllium’s that I’m currently running but wouldn’t hesitate to compete with the silks, imo the best small format tweeters, and I’ve tried pretty much every highly regarded small format tweeter.


----------



## 6262ms3

Mullings said:


> I have both and love both, those are the beryllium’s that I’m currently running but wouldn’t hesitate to compete with the silks, imo the best small format tweeters, and I’ve tried pretty much every highly regarded small format tweeter.


I've been running the silks for a couple of months now, I really like them! Before these I had the Scanspeak D3004 soft-domes, I was surprised at how much more I liked the Bliesmas in my car after some A/B testing.

Hope Geo is doing ok.


----------



## preston

Mullings said:


> I have both and love both, those are the beryllium’s that I’m currently running but wouldn’t hesitate to compete with the silks, imo the best small format tweeters, and I’ve tried pretty much every highly regarded small format tweeter.


Yeah I have the belly's and love them too, but I have that weird audiophile itch to try the silks. Perhaps just a touch softer edge to their sound is my thought.


----------



## santirx

MythosDreamLab said:


> I'm worried about Geo, hasn't posted here in 27 days...


R.I.P. Ge0:


https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threads/r-i-p-ge0.441698/


----------



## Bikey

Can anyone pick up the torch and continue the "GeO Memorial Novice's Comparison of Midrange and Tweets"?
He started something pretty special, would be great to continue it.


----------



## Elektra

How did he pass away? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cman

Bikey said:


> Can anyone pick up the torch and continue the "GeO Memorial Novice's Comparison of Midrange and Tweets"?
> He started something pretty special, would be great to continue it.



I think we can, I would love to, and I think it would be a wonderful tribute to @Ge0 and this amazing comparison thread. This is how I feel, so Subwoofers are great, tweeters are great… But mid range really in my opinion is where the heart of the music is at. It is the most critical driver for me during my listening.. so this thread was valued very much by me and I know many others valued it as well.

I appreciated that Ge0 would level match the drivers and so even though on paper the frequency response might look the same he was still able to dissect the subtle differences (sometimes not so subtle) between the drivers. Because we all know in real life even though sometimes something shows up the same on a graph playing a sine wave or a frequency sweep… When you’re playing music especially dynamic music it comes alive and presents itself in different ways depending on which driver you’re using.


I’ve got these - I’m pretty busy right now with work and school as well but soon I would like to write up a review of two of my favorite midrange drivers I’ve ever used…

Audiofrog GB25 AND Eton Onyx

Preliminary listening on my home stereo I give the nod to the Eton… which is saying something I’ve had several midrange drivers and The frog really is one of the best… I know it’s not flashy looking like the Utopia 3.5wm or the Audison Thesis TH 3.0 II but it sounds good and has excellent punch especially considering it’s size.

It is unfortunate Geo was never able to do a comparison of the GB25 but we can compare it to some of the other drivers he auditioned at some point…


- not sure if we should do it on the same thread or a new thread…we can get other peoples opinions and see where it goes.


----------



## clange2485

cman said:


> I think we can, I would love to, and I think it would be a wonderful tribute to @Ge0 and this amazing comparison thread. This is how I feel, so Subwoofers are great, tweeters are great… But mid range really in my opinion is where the heart of the music is at. It is the most critical driver for me during my listening.. so this thread was valued very much by me and I know many others valued it as well.
> 
> I appreciated that Ge0 would level match the drivers and so even though on paper the frequency response might look the same he was still able to dissect the subtle differences (sometimes not so subtle) between the drivers. Because we all know in real life even though sometimes something shows up the same on a graph playing a sine wave or a frequency sweep… When you’re playing music especially dynamic music it comes alive and presents itself in different ways depending on which driver you’re using.
> 
> 
> I’ve got these - I’m pretty busy right now with work and school as well but soon I would like to write up a review of two of my favorite midrange drivers I’ve ever used…
> 
> Audiofrog GB25 AND Eton Onyx
> 
> Preliminary listening on my home stereo I give the nod to the Eton… which is saying something I’ve had several midrange drivers and The frog really is one of the best… I know it’s not flashy looking like the Utopia 3.5wm or the Audison Thesis TH 3.0 II but it sounds good and has excellent punch especially considering it’s size.
> 
> It is unfortunate Geo was never able to do a comparison of the GB25 but we can compare it to some of the other drivers he auditioned at some point…
> 
> 
> - not sure if we should do it on the same thread or a new thread…we can get other peoples opinions and see where it goes.
> 
> View attachment 314151
> View attachment 314152
> View attachment 314153


If you’re up for the task, I think you’d be great at keeping this going. I actually sent geo a pair of gb15’s to test back in may (not sure if he ever got to them) and we talked about the gb25’s as well. Would have loved to get his comparison of the 25’s against the others.


----------



## Catalyx

Bikey said:


> Can anyone pick up the torch and continue the "GeO Memorial Novice's Comparison of Midrange and Tweets"?
> He started something pretty special, would be great to continue it.


I would love to continue the testing but doubt I could provide the same quality prose George used while reviewing drivers. Beyond that I do have the technical knowledge, perfectionistic tendencies and obsessive passion for audio gear required to perform. I often daydream about having a studio lab full of high end gear to quantitatively test equipment while subjectively satisfying my curiosity as to which I prefer.

More importantly, I loaned 23 different pairs of speakers to him and need to find a way to get them back. Did anyone here know him more personally or maybe live near his house in Huntington Woods, MI and are willing to drive there for a pickup? I really don't want to bother his wife with sorting and mailing equipment if possible so all of us with speakers to retrieve should organize the process together.


----------



## Mullings

These are the new xxm652 spiderless speakers, I had them for a few days now but really don’t have the time to test them. I’ll put the dats on them tomorrow for at least the t/s parameters but full testing will probably be in a few weeks, I’ll keep you guys posted.


----------



## bbfoto

Mullings said:


> These are the new xxm652 spiderless speakers, I had them for a few days now but really don’t have the time to test them. I’ll put the dats on them tomorrow for at least the t/s parameters but full testing will probably be in a few weeks, I’ll keep you guys posted.


Thanks Kevin! Looking forward to the T/S parameters and any other info or impressions you come up with. 

What is the cone material for the 6.5" midwoofers?


----------



## cman

Mullings said:


> These are the new xxm652 spiderless speakers, I had them for a few days now but really don’t have the time to test them. I’ll put the dats on them tomorrow for at least the t/s parameters but full testing will probably be in a few weeks, I’ll keep you guys posted.



Nice! I am very curious as to the QTS of the driver... the other midbass the XXM675(yellowish cone with black dust cap)has a very low QTS of 0.25 or 0.3... But from what I hear it was done on purpose.. as the more powerful motor attributed to the lower QTS..

I have had decent luck with low QTS drivers in my door before with a proper crossover.. but that seems to be debated amongst people...


----------



## Mullings

bbfoto said:


> Thanks Kevin! Looking forward to the T/S parameters and any other info or impressions you come up with.
> 
> What is the cone material for the 6.5" midwoofers?


I think it’s aluminum, I’ll check when I get home later but I’m almost certain that’s what it is


----------



## Mullings

Mullings said:


> I think it’s aluminum, I’ll check when I get home later but I’m almost certain that’s what it is


Just spoke with David and it’s not aluminum, he won’t say what material it is though


----------



## Catalyx

I'm organizing the retrieval of equipment from George's house and would like everyone who lent him something to contact me so we can create a descriptive list of what needs to be returned then provide his family with the documentation. Please send a private message for now then we may create a separate thread if needed.


----------



## robtr8

I referred to this thread a bunch of times trying to decide on drivers for the Jag. It gave me the courage to stick with my GB60's and try and find a super shallow mid that would pair with the AudioFrogs. GB25's didn't fit, too deep. Wound up buying Morel MM2's because A) They fit and B) the only other thing that would fit is the Focal Flax 3" and, for me, Morel > Focal. Knew there wasn't any reviews for the MM2's so I was about to post and discovered the last bunch of posts to this thread. RIP GeO.

Crutchfield kept showing the MM2's as preorder but Woofers said they had them. I wound up buying them out of the Morel "store" within Amazon, fulfilled by Woofers. Mounted up easy and sound great.


----------



## Catalyx

Thankfully it turns out George told his family about his speaker testing and they are currently working to return them to their owners.

Now the question is whether anyone here wants to continue the review or at least some version of it. I'll be gradually working to create my own test rig but don't have enough spare time to avoid frustrating an audience waiting for progress.


----------



## cman

robtr8 said:


> I referred to this thread a bunch of times trying to decide on drivers for the Jag. It gave me the courage to stick with my GB60's and try and find a super shallow mid that would pair with the AudioFrogs. GB25's didn't fit, too deep. Wound up buying Morel MM2's because A) They fit and B) the only other thing that would fit is the Focal Flax 3" and, for me, Morel > Focal. Knew there wasn't any reviews for the MM2's so I was about to post and discovered the last bunch of posts to this thread. RIP GeO.
> 
> Crutchfield kept showing the MM2's as preorder but Woofers said they had them. I wound up buying them out of the Morel "store" within Amazon, fulfilled by Woofers. Mounted up easy and sound great.


Great drivers. I use them for rear fill due to depth issues. I’ve seen testing on them and they are pretty low distortion.. and they are not a soft some it’s aluminum dome shaped cone… great performers especially relative to their size! I would not hesitate to use them for a front stage.


----------



## Porsche

anyone know what happened to him? young dude, sucks


----------



## Catalyx

Porsche said:


> anyone know what happened to him? young dude, sucks


So tragic, he had lingering issues with his heart that suddenly took a turn for the worst right when things were looking better for him.


----------



## Catalyx

For those curious, here are the speakers I lent to Ge0 that he never posted reviews of:

Audio Development ESA mids
Audio Development M35
Dynaudio 3C0 035 411 E tweeters
ESB DT-6.25
Flux Audio HT-28R
Flux Audio M-80R
Gladen Aerospace 20
HAT X3-P
Helix RS801
Helix RS802
Illusion Audio C3
Morel MT350
Morel Virtus Nano MM2
Oz Audio OZ-25 Tweeters
Pioneer Carrozzeria TS-S1000RS
Stereo Integrity M25
Stereo Integrity M3 Carbon
VE-Audio & Lundegaard A8M


----------



## SkizeR

Catalyx said:


> For those curious, here are the speakers I lent to Ge0 that he never posted reviews of:
> 
> Audio Development ESA mids
> Audio Development M35
> Dynaudio 3C0 035 411 E tweeters
> ESB DT-6.25
> Flux Audio HT-28R
> Flux Audio M-80R
> Gladen Aerospace 20
> HAT X3-P
> Helix RS801
> Helix RS802
> Illusion Audio C3
> Morel MT350
> Morel Virtus Nano MM2
> Oz Audio OZ-25 Tweeters
> Pioneer Carrozzeria TS-S1000RS
> Stereo Integrity M25
> Stereo Integrity M3 Carbon
> VE-Audio & Lundegaard A8M


jesus christ dude.. seek help for your addiction lol


----------



## Porsche

Catalyx said:


> So tragic, he had lingering issues with his heart that suddenly took a turn for the worst right when things were looking better for him.


sucks, my brother has to have heart surgery for a aortic root issue, next thursday, prayers needed


----------



## Catalyx

Porsche said:


> sucks, my brother has to have heart surgery for a aortic root issue, next thursday, prayers needed


Prayers given!


----------



## Catalyx

SkizeR said:


> jesus christ dude.. seek help for your addiction lol


That's only a fraction of my collection! 😜

I don't need help but should sell off some of my hoard which will happen once the mids and tweeters are returned.


----------



## Jheitt142

Catalyx said:


> That's only a fraction of my collection! 😜
> 
> I don't need help but should sell off some of my hoard which will happen once the mids and tweeters are returned.


retirement fund! hahaha


----------



## bbfoto

Mullings said:


> I have them 250hz-3000hz here [new 4" XXM]. David wants me to use them from 200hz but they’re in towels now so after the pods are complete I’ll play with them some more. I have the dats but I’m getting the t/s parameters for them and the 6.5” shortly so I’ll post those but I have no doubt in these crushing this ongoing speaker test, they’re that good.





Mullings said:


> These are the new xxm652 spiderless speakers, I had them for a few days now but really don’t have the time to test them. I’ll put the dats on them tomorrow for at least the t/s parameters but full testing will probably be in a few weeks, I’ll keep you guys posted.


Hey Kevin, hope you had a good Thanksgiving!

Did you ever get a chance to measure for T/S specs and/or listen to these new 6.5" XXM652 Xcelsus drivers, or get the T/S specs for the new XXM 4" drivers...and did you complete your pods for them yet???


I've been REALLY happy with my XXM325 so far. But the new 4" mid should give us just a bit more lower extension and slightly more output capability, which is what I'm looking for. 




Mullings said:


> Just spoke with David and it’s not aluminum, he won’t say what material it is though.


Hmmm...I'm assuming that they _*are*_ some type of lightweight METAL cone, though, and not a polymer/composite???

Also, any information about when all of these will be in production and available for purchase?


@Mullings Kev, check out this track in your system and let me know what you think (might hate it, who knows)? 

Ziggy Marley - Dragonfly [Live Acoustic WBOS Studio] - FLAC & AIFF D/L


----------



## TylorMcVey

I would also love to get the xxm425, but I know the 3" is almost too much of a view obstruction in my vehicle; the 4" would clearly give me visual problems; It would be nice for those garage listens tho 😉


----------



## Mullings

bbfoto said:


> Hey Kevin, hope you had a good Thanksgiving!
> 
> Did you ever get a chance to measure for T/S specs and/or listen to these new 6.5" XXM652 Xcelsus drivers, or get the T/S specs for the new XXM 4" drivers...and did you complete your pods for them yet???
> 
> 
> I've been REALLY happy with my XXM325 so far. But the new 4" mid should give us just a bit more lower extension and slightly more output capability, which is what I'm looking for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm...I'm assuming that they _*are*_ some type of lightweight METAL cone, though, and not a polymer/composite???
> 
> Also, any information about when all of these will be in production and available for purchase?
> 
> 
> @Mullings Kev, check out this track in your system and let me know what you think (might hate it, who knows)?
> 
> Ziggy Marley - Dragonfly [Live Acoustic WBOS Studio] - FLAC & AIFF D/L


Thanksgiving was really good, thanks for asking and I hope it was great for everyone else. I’m sorry but I still didn’t get a chance to test the mids or build the new pods for the truck, many of you guy might not know but I now have my own shop @AudioWizə and it is remote start season and an unexpected surge of remote start appointments has pretty much halted everything car stereo for the next few months. I haven’t even had a chance to enjoy the system in the truck which if anyone heard it at SVR is much better with a few changes, and will be even better with the new pods whether I use the 3’s or 4’s, but because of some things I learned when testing the 4’s. I’m gonna reach out to @Truthunter to see if he has time to do further testing on the 4’s but I have to make time to test the 6’s sometime this week. I also tested the xxt30w tweeters briefly a few weeks ago and I must say that xcellsus will be the manufacturer to beat once people starts hearing their products. These tweeters are among the best sounding soft dome tweeters, they’re Uber detailed and with zero fatigue, think utopia detail without the bite but just as vivid. The only downside is the size which I was told is the best balance and wouldn’t sound the was they sounds if built smaller, these will be in my shop/competition car. My laser cutter is supposed to come Tuesday after a almost 4 months wait so I’ll be rearranging the bay tomorrow afternoon to make space for it so I’ll try to squeeze the testing in after everything, I’ll keep you guys posted.


----------



## Mullings

TylorMcVey said:


> I would also love to get the xxm425, but I know the 3" is almost too much of a view obstruction in my vehicle; the 4" would clearly give me visual problems; It would be nice for those garage listens tho 😉


These speakers are so shallow that if built smartly, they’ll be like a fly on the wall on your pillars, even shallower than the shallowest pods you can build for a GB25.


----------



## bbfoto

Mullings said:


> Thanksgiving was really good, thanks for asking and I hope it was great for everyone else.
> 
> I’m sorry but I still didn’t get a chance to test the mids or build the new pods for the truck, many of you guys might not know but I now have my own shop *@AudioWizə* and it is remote start season and an unexpected surge of remote start appointments has pretty much halted everything car stereo for the next few months.
> 
> I haven’t even had a chance to enjoy the system in the truck which if anyone heard it at SVR is much better with a few changes, and will be even better with the new pods whether I use the 3’s or 4’s, but because of some things I learned when testing the 4’s I’m gonna reach out to @Truthunter to see if he has time to do further testing on the 4’s, but I have to make time to test the 6’s sometime this week.
> 
> I also tested the xxt30w tweeters briefly a few weeks ago and I must say that xcellsus will be the manufacturer to beat once people starts hearing their products. These tweeters are among the best sounding soft dome tweeters, they’re Uber detailed and with zero fatigue, think utopia detail without the bite but just as vivid. The only downside is the size which I was told is the best balance and wouldn’t sound the was they sounds if built smaller, these will be in my shop/competition car.
> 
> My laser cutter is supposed to come Tuesday after a almost 4 months wait so I’ll be rearranging the bay tomorrow afternoon to make space for it so I’ll try to squeeze the testing in after everything, I’ll keep you guys posted.



Thanks for the update and CONGRATS on the new shop! Where is it located?

And which Laser Cutter did you go with? I'm looking into getting one as well for my home workshop.

Definitely interested in your experience and impressions of the new XXM652 6.5" once you check them out! And I was considering the standard XXT30 tweeters for a project after reading Ge0's impressions. They seem like a bargain for their performance level.

Oh, Remote Start installs sounds like heaps o' FUN! 

THANKS!


----------



## Mullings

bbfoto said:


> Thanks for the update and CONGRATS on the new shop! Where is it located?
> 
> And which Laser Cutter did you go with? I'm looking into getting one as well for my home workshop.
> 
> Definitely interested in your experience and impressions of the new XXM652 6.5" once you check them out! And I was considering the standard XXT30 tweeters for a project after reading Ge0's impressions. They seem like a bargain for their performance level.
> 
> Oh, Remote Start installs sounds like heaps o' FUN!
> 
> THANKS!


Thanks, the shop is in Middletown New York, I ordered a thunder laser Nova 51 since late august and the delivery keeps postponing for the last month but they said that Tuesday is a certainty. If the tone of the 6’s are like that of the 4’s then we’ll have a seriously good mid/midbass speaker. Remote start is my thing, Friday I did 6 and yesterday I did 6 and 2 radio installs, all of which was hardwired, no T harness, I almost wish I didn’t take on any custom builds but I have 3 serious sq build to complete for this seasons Meca/iasca season and I didn’t even mention the shop car.


----------



## Truthunter

Mullings said:


> I’m gonna reach out to @Truthunter to see if he has time to do further testing on the 4’s...


I do and I will


----------



## Mullings

Truthunter said:


> I do and I will


See you Friday my friend.


----------



## bertholomey

Mullings said:


> See you Friday my friend.


Lucky dog!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## SkizeR

Mullings said:


> Thanks, the shop is in Middletown New York, I ordered a thunder laser Nova 51 since late august and the delivery keeps postponing for the last month but they said that Tuesday is a certainty. If the tone of the 6’s are like that of the 4’s then we’ll have a seriously good mid/midbass speaker. Remote start is my thing, Friday I did 6 and yesterday I did 6 and 2 radio installs, all of which was hardwired, no T harness, I almost wish I didn’t take on any custom builds but I have 3 serious sq build to complete for this seasons Meca/iasca season and I didn’t even mention the shop car.


I was going to order the same one. Decided against it when I saw that wait time lol


----------



## Mullings

SkizeR said:


> I was going to order the same one. Decided against it when I saw that wait time lol


So I cleared the schedule for today because they didn’t give me a delivery time. Called the shipping company 3pm after just waiting only to hear that they couldn’t get it on the truck so it’s gonna be tomorrow.


----------



## Brian_323

Mullings said:


> So I cleared the schedule for today because they didn’t give me a delivery time. Called the shipping company 3pm after just waiting only to hear that they couldn’t get it on the truck so it’s gonna be tomorrow.


Is there a big difference from the xxt30 to the xxt30w?


----------



## SkizeR

Mullings said:


> So I cleared the schedule for today because they didn’t give me a delivery time. Called the shipping company 3pm after just waiting only to hear that they couldn’t get it on the truck so it’s gonna be tomorrow.


Welcome to running your own shop 
lol


----------



## Mullings

Brian_323 said:


> Is there a big difference from the xxt30 to the xxt30w?


I have the xxt30 but never tried it so I can’t answer that right now, but if you want top shelf tweeter performance and have the space to fit the xxt30w, I promise you it won’t disappoint. The fact that this is the tweeter that I chose to use in the car that’s gonna represent my shop speaks volumes if you know the amount of tweeters I’ve used over the years.


----------



## bbfoto

Truthunter said:


> I do and I will


Ryan, I, and I'm sure others, would be interested in your impressions of the new XXM drivers if you're willing to share. 




Mullings said:


> I have the xxt30 but never tried it so I can’t answer that right now, but if you want top shelf tweeter performance and have the space to fit the xxt30w, I promise you it won’t disappoint. The fact that this is the tweeter that I chose to use in the car that’s gonna represent my shop speaks volumes if you know the amount of tweeters I’ve used over the years.


Probably just stating the obvious, but even the regular XXT30 is quite large, and the XXT30W's are obviously much larger...and deep! That doesn't make it practical or even feasible for most installs, and pretty much relegates it to full-on custom builds and comp cars.

Assuming that the XXT30W is essentially using the same tweeter guts as the standard XXT30, in a 3-way front stage, do you really need the added efficiency and lower extension that this waveguide tweeter offers?

I'd be interested in seeing the measured FR and distortion differences between the two. I guess with the added efficiency you could push the system higher without strain. But if implemented properly in a 3-way, most decent tweeters don't have an issue getting as loud as I'd ever want to listen, especially at the short distances we use them at.

I do have a few tracks that I use to test for tweeter strain and distortion/breakup, but I've usually only had an issue in that regard in 2-way front systems where the tweeters typically need to play lower.

One of those tracks is the female vocal in the *Hollywood Love* track on the IASCA disc. The other is Petra Valman's operatic female vocal starting around 0:50 to 1:03 on *Marias vaggsång* with the *Taby Church Chamber Choir* from the *FIM Audiophile Reference IV* disc. Not what I'd listen to on a daily basis, but useful for testing purposes...

bbfoto DIYMA sample tracks - Marias vaggsang/Taby Church Chamber Choir/FIM Audiophile Reference IV - FLAC D/L

YouTube video of a different performance for reference...


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## Mullings

bbfoto said:


> Ryan, I, and I'm sure others, would be interested in your impressions of the new XXM drivers if you're willing to share.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably just stating the obvious, but even the regular XXT30 is quite large, and the XXT30W's are obviously much larger...and deep! That doesn't make it practical or even feasible for most installs, and pretty much relegates it to full-on custom builds and comp cars.
> 
> Assuming that the XXT30W is essentially using the same tweeter guts as the standard XXT30, in a 3-way front stage, do you really need the added efficiency and lower extension that this waveguide tweeter offers?
> 
> I'd be interested in seeing the measured FR and distortion differences between the two. I guess with the added efficiency you could push the system higher without strain. But if implemented properly in a 3-way, most decent tweeters don't have an issue getting as loud as I'd ever want to listen, especially at the short distances we use them at.
> 
> I do have a few tracks that I use to test for tweeter strain and distortion/breakup, but I've usually only had an issue in that regard in 2-way front systems where the tweeters typically need to play lower.
> 
> One of those tracks is the female vocal in the *Hollywood Love* track on the IASCA disc. The other is Petra Valman's operatic female vocal starting around 0:50 to 1:03 on *Marias vaggsång* with the *Taby Church Chamber Choir* from the *FIM Audiophile Reference IV* disc. Not what I'd listen to on a daily basis, but useful for testing purposes...
> 
> bbfoto DIYMA sample tracks - Marias vaggsang/Taby Church Chamber Choir/FIM Audiophile Reference IV - FLAC D/L
> 
> YouTube video of a different performance for reference...


I heard the xxt30’s in another vehicle and they sounded blah, but every setup and tune is different so that could be something with the tune so I won’t use that as a measuring stick to judge the xxt30w’s. The xxt30 looks like a direct drop in for the Bliesma’s so I’ll swap them in and make the eq change and report back.


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## Truthunter

Had a nice little mini meet with my friend Kevin (Mullings) this afternoon. Checked out the new laser machine which was much larger than expected. Gave a quick 15 minute demo, did some demo track sharing and then was on my way with way more than I expected in the back seat.


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## Mullings

Truthunter said:


> Had a nice little mini meet with my friend Kevin (Mullings) this afternoon. Checked out the new laser machine which was much larger than expected. Gave a quick 15 minute demo, did some demo track sharing and then was on my way with way more than I expected in the back seat.
> 
> View attachment 318084
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 318085


Let me start by saying that the Camry sounds amazing man, then that little SQ chitchat just kicked me into music gear again. I was so excited, the customer for the Honda Pilot came to pick it up and I didn’t even start the install 😂😂😂😂. I’m excited to hear your thoughts on the new stuff. When and where is the next GTG?


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## Truthunter

Mullings said:


> Let me start by saying that the Camry sounds amazing man, then that little SQ chitchat just kicked me into music gear again. I was so excited, the customer for the Honda Pilot came to pick it up and I didn’t even start the install 😂😂😂😂. I’m excited to hear your thoughts on the new stuff. When and where is the next GTG?


Well, glad I could encourage you but feel sorry about that pilot owner 
I think the next GTG should be local to us and soon. There is a park I found in Montgomery that might work very well.


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## Mullings

Truthunter said:


> Well, glad I could encourage you but feel sorry about that pilot owner
> I think the next GTG should be local to us and soon. There is a park I found in Montgomery that might work very well.


This would be great, we should start planning it, I have a few cars to show off.


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## cman

You guys should use that DATS and post t/s parameters of the Xcelsus drivers!


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## Truthunter

cman said:


> You guys should use that DATS and post t/s parameters of the Xcelsus drivers!


That's the plan. Hope to start this week.


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## cman

Truthunter said:


> That's the plan. Hope to start this week.



Sweet! I just got a DATSv3 and I am taking T/S parameters on all my drivers. Lots of fun.. the calculating VAS seems to be the most difficult part.. i have a milligram scale so i can weigh out exact weights for adding weight.. but with a built in grill on the XXM325 you will likely need to use one of the other methods to determine VAS.. mmd is another method.. and xcelsus provides a number for this. It appears to be accurate because most drivers this size mmd is maybe 3 grams.. so even though they do provide a VAS.. you can check it.... and then get the sensitivity.. get the QTS before and after break in.. fun stuff like that.. I think i saw somewhere the sensitivity on these is about 84db at one watt.. which sounds correct for a 3" midrange...


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## Truthunter

Wanted to share some dimensional data on the XXM425. Keep in mind that this is a pre-production sample.

Cutout Diameter: 94.5mm
Mounting Depth: 44mm
Mounting Height: 5mm
OD (Not inc. tabs): 106.5mm
OD w/ Tabs: 129mm

Here is a photo of some other drivers next to it for reference.
From L to R: Karma Aspect 3, Xcelsus XXM325, Xcelsus XXM425, Arc RS 4.0











Here are views from the side to show relative mounting depths:

Karma Aspect 3 / Xcelsus XXM325:










Xcelsus XXM425 / Arc RS 4.0:










The cone diameter of the Xcelsus 425 and Arc RS 4.0 are very close if not the same. The Xcelsus is stamped steel basket whereas the Arc is cast aluminum. I prefer the compact mounting dimensions of the Xcelsus.


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## ckirocz28

cman said:


> Sweet! I just got a DATSv3 and I am taking T/S parameters on all my drivers. Lots of fun.. the calculating VAS seems to be the most difficult part.. i have a milligram scale so i can weigh out exact weights for adding weight.. but with a built in grill on the XXM325 you will likely need to use one of the other methods to determine VAS.. mmd is another method.. and xcelsus provides a number for this. It appears to be accurate because most drivers this size mmd is maybe 3 grams.. so even though they do provide a VAS.. you can check it.... and then get the sensitivity.. get the QTS before and after break in.. fun stuff like that.. I think i saw somewhere the sensitivity on these is about 84db at one watt.. which sounds correct for a 3" midrange...
> 
> View attachment 318151


3M adhesive putty works well for weighting small cones, flatten it out and add lead fishing weights for bigger stuff.


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## Malato

Hi Guys,
Hope you find this helpful.

XXM425 LMS T/S data:
Revc- 3.2 Ohm
Levc- 18.571 uH
Fo- 111.155 Hz
Sd- 5.359 K mm
Md- 10.000 g
BL- 3.451 T
Qms- 0.617
Qes- 1.125
Qts- 0.398
No- 0.165%
SPLo- 84.2 dB
Vas- 1.395 Ltr
Cms- 342.045u M/N
Mms- 5.994 g
Mmd- 5.768g


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## bbfoto

Truthunter said:


> Wanted to share some dimensional data on the XXM425. Keep in mind that this is a pre-production sample.
> 
> Cutout Diameter: 94.5mm
> Mounting Depth: 44mm
> Mounting Height: 5mm
> OD (Not inc. tabs): 106.5mm
> OD w/ Tabs: 129mm
> 
> Here is a photo of some other drivers next to it for reference.
> From L to R: Karma Aspect 3, Xcelsus XXM325, Xcelsus XXM425, Arc RS 4.0
> 
> Here are views from the side to show relative mounting depths:
> 
> Karma Aspect 3 / Xcelsus XXM325:
> 
> Xcelsus XXM425 / Arc RS 4.0:
> 
> The cone diameter of the Xcelsus 425 and Arc RS 4.0 are very close if not the same. The Xcelsus is stamped steel basket whereas the Arc is cast aluminum. I prefer the compact mounting dimensions of the Xcelsus.


Greatly appreciated, Ryan!


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## Bikey

Interesting T/S numbers. Any chance is has >2mm xmax?


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## Elektra

Malato said:


> Hi Guys,
> Hope you find this helpful.
> 
> XXM425 LMS T/S data:
> Revc- 3.2 Ohm
> Levc- 18.571 uH
> Fo- 111.155 Hz
> Sd- 5.359 K mm
> Md- 10.000 g
> BL- 3.451 T
> Qms- 0.617
> Qes- 1.125
> Qts- 0.398
> No- 0.165%
> SPLo- 84.2 dB
> Vas- 1.395 Ltr
> Cms- 342.045u M/N
> Mms- 5.994 g
> Mmd- 5.768g


With that QTS - it seems this driver may need an enclosure? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lithium

Elektra said:


> With that QTS - it seems this driver may need an enclosure?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Probably not if you're HPF is above FS.


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## Turb0Yoda

Hi all,

In a different effort to compile all the results(I don't know that anyone has done this yet)- but I grabbed all the info from the first post, and slapped it into a spreadsheet and organized from highest average score to worst. This helps me personally, I hope it helps others.









Ge0 Compiled results


Sheet1 Combinations,Tonality,Detail,Spaciousness,Harshness(Lack thereof),Dynamics,Total Average Score,Additional Notes <a href="https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threads/a-novices-comparison-between-some-pretty-sweet-midranges-and-tweeters.432913/post-5906824">Stevens Audio CompNeo HLCD compression...




docs.google.com


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## Bikey

Any updates on the listening comparisons?


Truthunter said:


> Wanted to share some dimensional data on the XXM425. Keep in mind that this is a pre-production sample. Cutout Diameter: 94.5mm Mounting Depth: 44mm Mounting Height: 5mm OD (Not inc. tabs): 106.5mm OD w/ Tabs: 129mm Here is a photo of some other drivers next to it for reference. From L to R: Karma Aspect 3, Xcelsus XXM325, Xcelsus XXM425, Arc RS 4.0 Here are views from the side to show relative mounting depths: Karma Aspect 3 / Xcelsus XXM325: Xcelsus XXM425 / Arc RS 4.0: The cone diameter of the Xcelsus 425 and Arc RS 4.0 are very close if not the same. The Xcelsus is stamped steel basket whereas the Arc is cast aluminum. I prefer the compact mounting dimensions of the Xcelsus.


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## Truthunter

Bikey said:


> Any updates on the listening comparisons?


I'm sorry to say no... other life obligations getting in the way right now but I'm hoping soon.


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## cman

I don’t think an enclosure will be needed… I’ve modeled a lot of mid range drivers my ones that I’m going to use right now have a QTS of 0.35 and they model quite well free air. A little enclosure would be useful but not necessary by any means… depending on your high pass filter and the speakers FS though


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## Bikey

I realize this is your personal spreadsheet and so obviously do with it as you wish but it is missing the Dynaudio E430 reviews (I'm not sure if was intentional or not).



Turb0Yoda said:


> Hi all,
> 
> In a different effort to compile all the results(I don't know that anyone has done this yet)- but I grabbed all the info from the first post, and slapped it into a spreadsheet and organized from highest average score to worst. This helps me personally, I hope it helps others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ge0 Compiled results
> 
> 
> Sheet1 Combinations,Tonality,Detail,Spaciousness,Harshness(Lack thereof),Dynamics,Total Average Score,Additional Notes <a href="https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threads/a-novices-comparison-between-some-pretty-sweet-midranges-and-tweeters.432913/post-5906824">Stevens Audio CompNeo HLCD compression...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> docs.google.com


----------



## Turb0Yoda

Bikey said:


> I realize this is your personal spreadsheet and so obviously do with it as you wish but it is missing the Dynaudio E430 reviews (I'm not sure if was intentional or not).


Oh man, didn't realize I missed one. I only did what was linked in the OP, But still might have missed one. Will try to add it Saturday


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## Bikey

Actually, from taking a look I don't think he published a dedicated review. He referenced the driver at length in a number of other reviews, but I don't think he gave it a score (though it seems like he liked it slightly more than the 3.5WM).


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## geolemon

Bikey said:


> Actually, from taking a look I don't think he published a dedicated review. He referenced the driver at length in a number of other reviews, but I don't think he gave it a score (though it seems like he liked it slightly more than the 3.5WM).


I was curious about those - woof!
$2k for a 3.5" set of raw drivers.
Unusual things about them though -
Nearly 5mm Xmax will help them linear and low - and despite that Xmax, has a qts of .18! Holy cow.

I'm going to have to find more info on this "dual magnet" motor - wondering if it is used to make an LMT design like XBL, or at that price point something like JBLs crazy complex DDD motor tech?

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## Bikey

Yeah, priced out of range of all but the most afflicted. Qts is typically irrelevant, given the normal xo freqs for this (250 and up, which is ~2 octaves above FS). 
The xmax is peak to peak, so it is more like 2.5mm (so, very average for this size).


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## Porsche

e430, most musical and accurate midrange on the market imo


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## Niebur3

^^^^Agreed

and xmax for a midrange is irrelevant.


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## geolemon

Niebur3 said:


> ^^^^Agreed
> 
> and xmax for a midrange is irrelevant.


It's not if you are looking for insight into how flat the BL is across the useable range.

Higher frequencies make for exponentially reduced excursions... But that doesn't eliminate intermodulation.

Even if you don't use some flavor of LMT technology, having an Xmax that doubles or triples what you'll really use is an inexpensive strategy for low intermodulation of BL (and probably CMS).

It's also not if you are looking for a mid that can play unusually low... Though that IMD benefit would fade away near the HPF point.

I haven't googled it yet - but I'm thinking the long-coil standard overhung might not be all that's going on in there - that would be an exceptionally hot coil to yield a 0.18 Qes with most of the energized windings out of the gap at any time. That's my only reason for suspecting that really - well, there's also the price tag.  Maybe at least something of a shaped gap like the Wavecor... 
There ARE often real reasons why things sound better. 😉

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## ean611

So much good thread.

Would be curious if anyone has tried the new ScanSpeak 10m against these. It used to be the same as the 4 ohm 10f, but now is a unique product, similar in construction to the 10f 8 ohm, but higher moving mass.


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## preston

Porsche said:


> e430, most musical and accurate midrange on the market imo


Would at some point love to hear some golden ear opinions comparing the e430 to the new Accuton mids.


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## Porsche

preston said:


> Would at some point love to hear some golden ear opinions comparing the e430 to the new Accuton mids.


dunno about golden ears but i have used accuton for 20 years, i would rate the accuton cell mids on par with them, maybe a little more analytical than the esotars. i have not used the "car" accuton but i have a lot of experience with there home line


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## ean611

Ge0 said:


> *Review: Xcelsus XXM325 midrange paired with XXT30 and Focal Utopia TBM tweeters*
> 
> View attachment 299911
> 
> View attachment 299913
> 
> View attachment 299915
> 
> View attachment 299916
> 
> View attachment 299917
> 
> 
> Opener: It seems strange that I am publishing the review of this midrange first. I’ve done detailed reviews on at least 6 others. However, it currently has the most community buzz going on about it. I might as well satisfy the masses.
> 
> I could sit and listen to the XXM325 midranges all day. They have wonderful tonality, lifelike presentation, and a beautiful center image. They seemed to get a little more mellow as I spent a few hours breaking them in. However, they still have a somewhat “sharp” sounding signature that lands them somewhere between the Focal 3.5wm and Dynaudio E430.
> 
> One of the first things you will notice is the drivers I compare these to. This is for a reason. I truly believe the XXm325’s are in a similar league.
> 
> The XXM325’s cast a wider stage than the Focal 3.5wm’s. But, they are a little less detailed as the 3.5wm’s or the E430’s. Also, the XXM325’s don’t sound as holographic (less depth of field) as the 3.5wm’s or the E430’s. Setting that aside they are a great sounding speaker. I enjoyed listening to them throughout songs and genres in my library.
> 
> The XXM325’s tonal signature is very similar to the Focal 3.5wm’s (meaning they are a little more forward sounding). But, they are not as harsh on less than optimal materials like film and television broadcast. The Focal 3.5wm’s might be the best for pure high definition music content. But, the XXM325’s have 90% of the performance and are a better “all purpose” solution if you will be listening to other material such as films or news casts.
> 
> The XXM325’s blend into music seamlessly like other high performance midranges. Meaning, you don’t even realize speakers are there. I can’t say this for other midranges I tried like the ScanSpeak 12M, 10F, or Dynaudio MF171. Those drivers can sound really good but they don’t disappear. You still sense you are listening to music through speakers.
> 
> Like I said earlier, the XXM325’s sacrifice stage depth and some 3D spatial cues. For instance, when the 3.5WM’s or E430’s are paired with the Piccolo’s magic happens. The soundstage becomes multi-layered and 3D due to additional depth cues. The multi-layer stage depth noticeably collapses to only a few layers when substituting the XXM325’s. You can hear various layers and depth but can’t accurately pinpoint instruments or sounds in space.
> 
> The reduced stage depth is mostly evident when listening to technical tracks that focus on depth and creating 3D space. Depth does not collapse entirely. However, some of the layering is lost. This is by no means a show stopper. It’s just different going without it once you’ve heard it. It’s a similar effect than going from the TBM to Piccolo when paired with the 3.5wm’s. The TBM’s still offered some stage depth but not as spacious as the Piccolo’s. This is what led me to pair the XXM325’s with the TBM’s. They complement each other's strong points quite well.
> 
> The XXM325’s have a very pleasing tonality. They nail Days of the New “Face of the Earth” perfectly. The guitars sound rich and detailed. Travis’s vocals sound astonishing but get a little raspy at higher volumes. But to be fair most, if not all, other speakers I am evaluating behave the same.
> 
> My biggest surprise was that the XXM325’s also nailed any Patricia Barber song I threw at them. These are among my best recordings. They are highly detailed and dynamic. The XXM325’s did not break a sweat. I went back and listened to these tracks a few times not only trying to find faults, but, because it sounded too dang good. As a matter of fact I found my first flaw in the recording of the track Nardis using these midranges. You could hear the noise gate used during recording switch in and out while Patrica's vocals hit silent patches.
> 
> I was expecting these things to puke during Patricia’s song “Too Rich for My Blood”. At 5:00 into the song she hits some extremely high and dynamic vocals causing many speakers distort. But, the XXM325’s held their composure, even at high volume.
> 
> Now I need to go back and check the same passages on the Focal’s and Dyn’s.
> 
> Moving from the 3.5WM to the XXM325 to the 3.5WM again (those two speakers sound a lot alike) I decided to go back to the E430’s.
> 
> What can you say about the E430’s? Perhaps the perfect midrange? It offers 90% of the detail of the Focal (like the XXM325) but is more mature and mellowed out about it. The E430 just blends into the atmosphere. It is not forward and jumpy like the 3.5WM. It’s the Focals bigger, more calm, brother. The 3.5WM’s can sound like an angry German when the E430’s sound as smooth as Barry White. The E430’s just have a better overall balance. They never “get in your face” like the Focals can on dicey material.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong. The Focals are a wonderful speaker. But, tend to be hot headed when the playback material is not perfect. You can’t beat them with well recorded hi-res audio. But, don’t try to listen to them while watching a football game on broadcast television where they tend to jack audio levels. The 3.5wm’s will spit that right back in your face.
> 
> E430 vocals and instruments replicated perfectly. Natural sounding with no bite. Kurt Ellings voice is replicated perfectly. Just as he sounds live.
> 
> So where does this leave the XXM325’s in my world? Somewhere in between the 3.5wm’s and the E430’s. Maybe a middle brother that not many people pay attention to?
> 
> The XXM325 is very detailed and revealing. For instance, you can hear singers parting their lips, taking a breath, etc. Spit sizzling on the reed of a saxophone or flange of a trumpet. Fingers leaving a guitar string and the amount of force / friction involved. The XXM325 does all of this without over emphasizing anything within the audible spectrum. Everything sounds well balanced and just right.
> 
> Overall another big hit for Xcelsus. The XXM325 is a midrange that can hang in there with my favorite high end devices for a fraction of the cost. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.
> 
> *Xcelsus XXM325 midrange rating:*
> 
> Tonality 4 of 4
> Detail 3.5 of 4
> Spaciousness 3.5 of 4
> Harshness (lack of) 3.5 of 4
> Dynamics 3.5 of 4


I'd make a joke here on how my wallet wants to say "thanks" for being put on a diet, but got a set of these for $200, and at that price?

Thanks for the review. These are a great addition. I mean, putting them up with $1200 Utopia or $2000 E430? Sure, the E430 is probably better. But at 1000% price? Xcelsus is going to turn heads at these prices is if they keep this up.


----------



## TylorMcVey

Mullings said:


> Yes sir, when I hear better I’ll change them lol, these IMO are the best small format tweeters on the market


Ever ran the SB Acoustics BE tweets? SB29BNC


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## Granite

I’ve ran the sb ceramics and they were better than esotecs. 

On a side note, I wish someone would start doing this again. This place just hasn’t been the same since Ge0.


----------

