# You can achieve proper imaging without the use of digital processing



## ChrisB

All right, I've had this argument before with several individuals on this forum as well as an audiophile friend of mine. They all claim that I can achieve proper stereo imaging, in a motorized vehicle, without the use of digital processing (i.e. time alignment). Their argument is that proper imaging is install based. Going further, I saw this last week and was shaking my head thinking more snake oil: DECWARE Car Audio - time alignment schematic 

I'm here to say that it is a MYTH that one can achieve proper stereo imaging WITHOUT the use of digital processing when drivers are 74" (sub), 33-35" (left speakers), and 54-56" (right speakers) away from the driver's listening position as my car is.

So there you have it. I threw out the myth, NOW prove to me how install and tuning can compensate for the non-equidistant placement of the drivers from my listening position.

:lurk:


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## rommelrommel

Monster Cable with time alignment!

Balance!

Run 1000000000000000ft of speaker wire to the left channel and 10 ft to the right!


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## ChrisB

The thing is, they all say it is about install and placement. When I ask "how" to do it, they revert back to saying it's all about install and placement. With that circular logic, they may as well say "I am right because I say so!"


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## jimmy2345

ChrisB said:


> The thing is, they all say it is about install and placement. When I ask "how" to do it, they revert back to saying it's all about install and placement. With that circular logic, they may as well say "I am right because I say so!"


No. What everyone needs to realize before feeding into this guys continued attempts at starting an argument is that HE has failed at car audio many times without spending the time and employing the proper procedures to make him successful. Because HE can't get imaging at all, with or without processing, he argues that it can't be done.

I will agree....without a lot of time and dedication it can't be done. Therefore, the LAZY people out there will never have imaging. Those who care to take the time to do things right always will.

No need to cry about it Chris. It's your fault and no one elses. This argument is the same as some who get on here and complain how fat they are yet they eat at McDonalds 3 times a day. It's your own doing, or lack there of.


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## ChrisB

jimmy2345 said:


> No. What everyone needs to realize before feeding into this guys continued attempts at starting an argument is that HE has failed at car audio many times without spending the time and employing the proper procedures to make him successful. Because HE can't get imaging at all, with or without processing, he argues that it can't be done.
> 
> I will agree....without a lot of time and dedication it can't be done. Therefore, the LAZY people out there will never have imaging. Those who care to take the time to do things right always will.
> 
> No need to cry about it Chris. It's your fault and no one elses. This argument is the same as some who get on here and complain how fat they are yet they eat at McDonalds 3 times a day. It's your own doing, or lack there of.


Nice attempt at trolling. Care to explain to me what I did wrong and how I should correct it without using DSP?

Your efforts of calling me lazy, and saying I didn't spend enough time do not address the fact that all my drivers are in non-equidistant locations from my listening position. Just how do I get all the audio signals to arrive at my ears at the same time through proper placement and install, Mr. Smarty Pants? 

I'll be awaiting your detailed answer since I posted measurements in my original post!

EDIT - Here are the detailed measurements of the various drivers from my listening position, to further help your answer:
Left Full Range Driver - 33"
Left Midbass - 35"
Right Full Range Driver - 54"
Right Midbass - 56"
Sub - 74"


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## MiniVanMan

ChrisB said:


> All right, I've had this argument before with several individuals on this forum as well as an audiophile friend of mine. They all claim that I can achieve proper stereo imaging, in a motorized vehicle, without the use of digital processing (i.e. time alignment). Their argument is that proper imaging is install based. Going further, I saw this last week and was shaking my head thinking more snake oil: DECWARE Car Audio - time alignment schematic
> 
> I'm here to say that it is a MYTH that one can achieve proper stereo imaging WITHOUT the use of digital processing when drivers are 74" (sub), 33-35" (left speakers), and 54-56" (right speakers) away from the driver's listening position as my car is.
> 
> So there you have it. I threw out the myth, NOW prove to me how install and tuning can compensate for the non-equidistant placement of the drivers from my listening position.
> 
> :lurk:


I'll add this. 

Time alignment does nothing for your upper octaves. Though less noticeable up top, it still does nothing. 

So, in the upper octaves, not even DSP fixes phase related issues. The only thing that truly works is equidistant drivers.


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## jimmy2345

ChrisB said:


> Nice attempt at trolling. Care to explain to me what I did wrong and how I should correct it without using DSP?
> 
> Your efforts of calling me lazy, and saying I didn't spend enough time do not address the fact that all my drivers are in non-equidistant locations from my listening position. Just how do I get all the audio signals to arrive at my ears at the same time through proper placement and install, Mr. Smarty Pants?
> 
> I'll be awaiting your detailed answer since I posted measurements in my original post!
> 
> EDIT - Here are the detailed measurements of the various drivers from my listening position, to further help your answer:
> Left Full Range Driver - 33"
> Left Midbass - 35"
> Right Full Range Driver - 54"
> Right Midbass - 56"
> Sub - 74"


Non-sense. Anyone with any sort of knowledge of car audio is going to know a bunch of measurements on a forum don't mean jack. If you want me to make your car image...seriously....pay for my plane ride and my time and will will come there and properly place, install, and angle your drivers. I will do all of the listening and make your car image. That is the only way to do it. Better yet....why don't you do it yourself? Lazy much?

I have food right in front of me yet I can't taste it....oh wait....I have to actually pick it up and put it in my mouth? Oohhh....now I get it. No one is going to feed me.


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## ChrisB

jimmy2345 said:


> Non-sense. Anyone with any sort of knowledge of car audio is going to know a bunch of measurements on a forum don't mean jack. If you want me to make your car image...seriously....pay for my plane ride and my time and will will come there and properly place, install, and angle your drivers. I will do all of the listening and make your car image. That is the only way to do it. Better yet....why don't you do it yourself? Lazy much?


To be technical, I wanted to know how to achieve this mythical imaging WITHOUT the use of digital processing. All you offered up thus far was trollish fodder.

Also, having you do it for me would defeat the purpose of the name of this forum "*Do It* *Yourself* *Mobile Audio*".


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## ChrisB

MiniVanMan said:


> I'll add this.
> 
> Time alignment does nothing for your upper octaves. Though less noticeable up top, it still does nothing.
> 
> So, in the upper octaves, not even DSP fixes phase related issues. The only thing that truly works is equidistant drivers.


I recently started dabbling in the near field monitor experience since my technical support job keeps me chained to a computer for hours and hours on end. I found that $500 and 20 minutes of setup time goes a lot further in an environment that I can control than it does in a car.


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## pwnt by pat

I will add this: even WITH DSP you can't achieve stereo reproduction in a car that doesn't have center only seating.


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## ChrisB

pwnt by pat said:


> I will add this: even WITH DSP you can't achieve stereo reproduction in a car that doesn't have center only seating.


I understand that DSP is only a partial solution to the problem. I just wanted those who say that DSP is unnecessary for stereophonic reproduction in the car to tell me just how to achieve it through proper placement and tuning.

There is one thing I have noticed about every recording studio or audiophile setup I have ever seen, and that was equidistant placement of drivers to the listener. You just can't get that in a car.



cajunner said:


> sorry, just find the complaining about the car environment tedious, when it is what it is.
> 
> (hate that saying, make it what it's not, then!)


I see you are someone who gets it too. That's just it when it comes to car audio. It's as good as it gets under the circumstances as dictated by the environment. Period.

Regardless, that is outside the scope of my original intentions of this thread (or is it?). I just wanted to see how these anti-DSP individuals can make a vehicle magically reproduce true stereophonic sound when the drivers are in non-equidistant places with regards to the listening position. They'll probably say it is some magical placement or tuning formula that they can't discuss with the public whereas I'll sit here and say that they can't pull it off.

Then again, it's the internet, on a Sunday afternoon, and I'm bored, so I figured I'd bring another myth to light just to see what the other side had to say.


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## pwnt by pat

as agreed upon, the closest you can get without center seating is panned monophonic. The only thing you can do is use wave guides to reduce reflections and keep all the speakers on-axis to reduce response discrepancies between left and right channels. Also using a wideband speakers and trying to reduce the amount of crossover points is a good place to start although you end up sacrificing top end. Oh and keeping speakers out of kick panels is a good idea too. Don't want any diffraction.


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## SoulFly

how bout this

http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthread.php?t=332000


> Long story short, I was never satisfied with the results. I put away the microphone and cables, and decided to use a different set of measuring devices: my ears. I experimented for weeks, and developed a way to set TA by listening for specific cues. The results were fantastic. The reason my method, with practice, will achieve better time alignment than any sophisticated measurement system is simple: it’s customized to every individual, and their vehicle interior.
> 
> With correct application, this method achieves immediate improvements in imaging, staging, impact, and transparency. Bass should become thinner, but in a good way - lean, with great impact. The sub-bass shouldn’t come from the back of the car, or even up front – it should be completely unlocalizable. Midbass should be solidly up front along with the rest of the center image.
> 
> TA will be calibrated:
> Using your own ears
> Taking into account your own hearing (the same sound is heard differently by everybody... and much more so by microphones)
> With your head in your everyday driving/listening position
> Taking into account all in-cabin reflections and absorptions, including your own body’s effects
> 
> The method costs nothing but time and patience. An audio file of pink and white noise will be used for tuning and can be downloaded free here: Burn-in wave files: white noise, pink noise, frequency sweep, channel mix
> 
> The method assumes that your system is an active one, with each channel individually adjustable for time delay. It is developed and written for a 2-way front stage with a mono subwoofer channel and no rear speakers, though it can adapted for any other active system, no matter how many channels. Note that there is only one sweet spot per calibration.
> 
> Here’s a preview of the method for a typical 3-way system:
> 
> While playing pink and/or white noise through system,
> Isolate sub and passenger side midbass (mute all other channels). Align drivers.
> Isolate sub and driver side midbass. Align drivers.
> Isolate driver and passenger midbasses. Verify time alignment and center image.
> Isolate passenger side midbass and tweeter. Align drivers.
> Isolate driver side midbass and tweeter. Align drivers.
> Isolate driver and passenger tweeters. Verify tweeter alignment and center image.
> Verify front stage alignment.
> Normal up the system and evaluate.
> Notice that alignment takes place between 2 non-like drivers at a time (sub/mid, mid/tweeter), and verification is done using like drivers (both mids, or both tweeters).
> 
> _______________
> 
> 
> The key to the process: what to listen for
> 
> The key to the entire process is listening for specific sounds which indicate when 2 given drivers are close to being in phase. Initially recognizing these sounds is difficult, but once you understand what to listen for, calibration will become easier and quicker. Here's a quick summary: 2 drivers play the same noise track and their outputs interact. Anything out-of-phase will cause harmonics. The harmonics will exhibit the Doppler Effect when time delay approaches the correct range. At the "center" of the Doppler Effect, harmonics disappear, which means out-of-phase information is at its minimum; the drivers are in phase.
> 
> Here it is in more detail. During tuning, pink and/or white noise will be playing loudly on 2 drivers at a time, and the noise will basically fill your interior.
> The 2 seperate outputs will interact, and phase incoherencies will show up as subtle harmonics within the pink noise.
> The harmonics will be at a much lower level than the 2 direct signals, and are difficult to detect. The goal is to identify and reduce these harmonics/phase problems to a minimum.
> As time delay is adjusted, the harmonics will rise and fall in pitch. The changes in pitch will sound random at first, but repeatable patterns will appear.
> As the drivers approach correct time alignment, the harmonics will exhibit the recognizable sound of the Doppler Effect.
> The Doppler Effect will present itself in one of two ways, depending on which 2 drivers are being aligned, and their relative levels:
> a)	The pitch of the harmonics will increase, peak, and then decrease (Like the typical Doppler Effect) --OR--
> b) The pitch of the harmonics will decrease, bottom out (the trough), and then increase again (Like an “inverse” Doppler Effect)
> In either case, when the Doppler Effect is at its extreme (the precise peak or trough), the harmonics/phase problems are at their lowest level, and the 2 drivers are in optimal phase.
> Note: As delay is increased from 0ms upward, there are multiple occurrences of the Doppler Effect. The target is the FIRST one to present itself starting from zero delay.
> 
> 
> Prep for tuning:
> 
> Save your current settings to memory. Since calibration will be done from your normal driving position, have your remote control handy, or make sure you can reach your controls while keeping your head steady and facing straight ahead. A battery charger would come in handy. TA is ideally set with the engine off, to make subtle sounds easier to hear. Make use of the charger (or drive the car) after tuning.
> 
> In your car, disable all filters/XOs external to your main DSP (stuff like on-amp filters, phase switches, bass controls, etc.). If you haven’t already, set your crossover points and slopes, and set your amp levels. Zero out all time delays and get your pink noise track ready to go, with the player set to repeat the track.
> 
> _______________
> 
> 
> Tuning
> 
> 
> 1) Align sub and passenger side midbass
> 
> Mute all drivers except for these two. The sub will remain at 0 ms, and delay will be adjusted for the midbass. Begin your noise track (preferably pink noise since we're dealing with low frequencies) and turn up the volume loud enough to closely examine the signal.
> 
> Start increasing delay for the midbass, and listen to for changes in the sound. In the sub/midbass crossover region there are frequencies where both drivers are playing, and this overlap is out of phase. These harmonics appear as an incoherent rumble within the pink noise. As time delay reaches the correct range, the rumble will take on the pattern of the Doppler Effect.
> 
> More specifically, as delay is increased, listen for one of two possible occurrences:
> 
> a)	The rumble shows itself around 60 Hz, rises in pitch to around 250 Hz, disappears, and then falls again from 250 Hz – 60 Hz.
> b)	The rumble shows itself around 250 Hz, falls in pitch to around 60 Hz, disappears, and then rises again from 60 – 250 Hz.
> 
> This event should occur between 30 and 120ms. Try holding down the time delay key to scan quickly up and down between zero to 200ms, this makes it easier to hear the pattern. When you think you hear it, note the approximate delay setting. Slowly scan up and down around that area and do your best to locate the center of the peak or trough, where the harmonics/rumbles disappear. This doesn’t have to be absolutely perfect yet, just get it close (the next step will fine tune the delay). Restore your normal XO settings and move on to step 1a.
> 
> (Note) If you’re having trouble hearing the Doppler Effect, go ahead and force both drivers to overlap and play the same frequencies – set both to play up to 300 Hz. Leave a 40 Hz high pass filter on the midbass to filter out low bass though. Go back and listen for the Doppler Effect again. When you’re finished with all of step 1, restore your normal XO settings and move on to step 1a.
> 
> 
> 1a) Verify your delay setting
> 
> The following is an example of how to zero in on, and verify the precise delay setting. Just as an example, say your best guess from step 1 is 70 ms delay.
> Hit the delay “up” button and count how many presses it takes to hear a discernible change in phase (could be up to 30+, depending on time increments).
> Say it takes 20 button presses to notice a change in phase (the rumble sound will return). Note the number 20.
> Return to where you started – 70 ms.
> Now, hit the down button the same number of times (20) – you should hear the very same rumble/phase change appear.
> If it takes more or less than 20 presses, adjust your 70 ms delay up or down accordingly.
> Repeat these steps until correct.
> 
> You’ve just eliminated the most apparent phase incoherencies between the 2 drivers, and they are now correctly aligned to your ears. And that’s how the method works. All other drivers repeat the same basic procedures. Each alignment depends on the one before it, so precision and patience in the first steps of the process is paramount.
> 
> (Note) This verification procedure will be repeated for all drivers.
> 
> 
> 2 and 2a) Alignment and verification: sub and driver side midbass
> 
> Mute all other drivers and adjusting delay for the driver side midbass. Note that because this midbass is closer to your ears than the passenger side, the time delay will end up slightly greater than the passenger midbass. The Doppler Effect will seem to appear and disappear more quickly as well.
> 
> Once you think you have the correct delay, verify using the same method as in (1a); this time, it should take fewer presses of the up/down button to hear a change in phase.
> 
> 
> 3) Verify alignment: both midbasses
> 
> Save your TA settings. You’ve just individually aligned your midbasses using the sub as their reference. Now it’s time to listen to both midbasses together. Mute all other drivers and return the XOs for the midbasses to their normal frequencies.
> 
> Play the pink noise and listen for the width and center of the presented soundstage. It should be quickly apparent that the image is solidly centered. If soundstage is not cohesive (almost like drivers are wired out-of-phase), or pulling to one side, then the best thing to do is go back to steps 1 and 2, and refine/re-verify your time delay settings. Making any arbitrary time adjustments during this verification step will do more harm than good.
> 
> An incoherent or off-centered soundstage can be caused by zeroing in on the wrong Doppler Effect (the second one that appears as opposed to the first one). As you get better at recognizing the Doppler Effect during the first 2 steps, the midbasses tend to automatically end up correctly aligned, and no changes need to be made in this step.
> 
> Don’t continue until you’re confident of your midbass time delay settings.
> 
> 
> 4 and 4a) Alignment and verification: passenger side midbass and tweeter
> 
> We’ll continue the process with the passenger mid/tweeter combo. Since this step deals with the midrange frequencies, playing back white noise instead of pink may be better (but not required). Use your normal XO settings, mute all other drivers and play the noise track.
> 
> The midbass will now be the reference; its predetermined delay setting will not change. Adjust tweeter delay until the Doppler Effect is heard. It will be more pronounced and easy to hear this time because the XO region is now in the midrange, and because the mid and tweeter radiating surfaces are physically quicker. The tweeter’s time delay should end up relatively close to that of the mid. If you have problems hearing the effect, use the XO filters to cut the high-end response of the tweeter, and cut the low frequencies of the midbass.
> 
> Verify using same procedure as above. It will take fewer button presses to hear a phase change.
> 
> 
> 5 and 5a) Alignment and verification: driver side midbass and tweeter
> 
> You know what to do. This one is a bit tricky because of the angle and proximity of the 2 drivers relative to your head. The Doppler Effect will come and go quickly. During verification, it should take very few presses of the up/down buttons to hear a change in phase.
> 
> 
> 6) Verify alignment: both tweeters
> 
> Save, or write down your TA settings. Restore both tweeters’ high-pass filters to their normal frequency. Listen to noise on both tweeters together and verify your settings from the last few steps. Again, listen for the width and center of the presented soundstage. Same deal, if it’s pulling to one side or incoherent, go back to steps 4 and 5 and refine/re-verify your time delay settings.
> 
> 
> 7) Verify alignment: front stage
> 
> Normal up the XOs for your entire front stage. Leave the sub off. Still playing the noise track, double-check for coherency and general staging. This is just a final verification of your settings, and if your verifications have been good up till now, this should not require any adjustments.
> 
> 
> 8) Normal up all settings and evaluate
> 
> This is the moment of truth. Normal up all of your XO settings, and save the configuration to memory. Play some music through your system and evaluate.
> 
> If you’ve never set TA by ear, and you’ve followed the steps with confidence in your determinations, there should be a very noticeable difference. Each time you go through the process, you’ll be better at recognizing the Doppler Effect and further refine your sound.
> 
> Improvements
> 
> With correct application, this method achieves immediate improvements in imaging, staging, impact, and transparency. Bass should become thinner, but in a good way - lean, with great impact. The sub-bass shouldn’t come from the back of the car, or even up front – it should be completely unlocalizable. Midbass should be solidly up front along with the rest of the center image.
> 
> That said, TA doesn’t magically transform your system into a rolling 5-digit audiophile’s dream. It just reduces the tendency for your speakers to fight against each other. Hearing correct TA for the first time can be downright shocking - but this is simply the moment we realize how much the speakers fight against each other within the confines of an automobile.
> 
> And, of course, this method is no replacement for a carefully installed system with well-placed drivers. But, it will definitely help a modest system with drop-in speakers bridge that gap somewhat.
> 
> Thanks for reading.


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## pwnt by pat

Yeah that's tuning with digital processing. This thread is about making it work without digital processing.


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## ErinH

I'd like to hear a car that is mono, since you carPC guys preach about it so much. Sadly I'm too stuck in my ways to explore that route myself and no one I know within reasonable driving distance uses mono as playback. I'm starting to think it's all a trick to see how many people are willing to do something "different" for the sake of doing so... That or you guys just live like hermits. 

I did see where Bob Dylan says stereo is just the man's way of making us spend money, though. If Dylan says it, then it must be true (and hard as hell to interpret).


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## ChrisB

The only problem there is converting a stereophonic recording back to monophonic on the fly. I guess if you liked the Beatles, you could start with their mono masters.


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## subwoofery

Jimmy got banned again? Why is that? I wonder...  

I sure can imagine an excellent sounding car not using T/A - however for that to work, you must have some kind of phase adjustments (which pretty much works like T/A). 
John Sketoe does it without T/A... 

Also, L/R EQ is a must in car audio IMO. 

Kelvin


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## Cablguy184

My first question will be ... 
The stage and image you are trying to accomplish, is it for the driver seat only ?? 
or is it for both driver and passenger seats ???


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## ChrisB

Driver's seat only because I'm selfish. If my wife wants to hear good music, she can drive her own car.


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## Cablguy184

No need for me to get into this then ... My truck is set up for driver and passenger stageing and imageing ... 
I'm not that rude to my wife or anyone else that rides in my truck *For the love of Music ... *


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## The Baron Groog

ChrisB said:


> All right, I've had this argument before with several individuals on this forum as well as an audiophile friend of mine. They all claim that I can achieve proper stereo imaging, in a motorized vehicle, without the use of digital processing (i.e. time alignment). Their argument is that proper imaging is install based. Going further, I saw this last week and was shaking my head thinking more snake oil: DECWARE Car Audio - time alignment schematic
> 
> *Their argument is correct at this point, with installation you can position the speakers so that there is no PLD*
> 
> 
> I'm here to say that it is a MYTH that one can achieve proper stereo imaging WITHOUT the use of digital processing when drivers are 74" (sub), 33-35" (left speakers), and 54-56" (right speakers) away from the driver's listening position as my car is.
> *Your argument is correct if you are unable to relocate the driver or the drivers*
> 
> So there you have it. I threw out the myth, NOW prove to me how install and tuning can compensate for the non-equidistant placement of the drivers from my listening position.
> *You've not thrown out any myth, just argued with yourself and drawn 1 all*
> 
> :lurk:


Buy a Mclaren F1 or build a single seater-either would give you "install only" imaging.


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## chefhow

Cablguy184 said:


> My first question will be ...
> The stage and image you are trying to accomplish, is it for the driver seat only ??
> or is it for both driver and passenger seats ???


So you are saying that without any kind of time alignment and digital processing you have a center image and staging from both seats?


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## ChrisB

The Baron Groog said:


> Their argument is correct at this point, with installation you can position the speakers so that there is no PLD


The argument posed by the “other side” is that I just need to angle the speakers better towards my listening position from the stock locations. It still does not address how their installation overcomes the limitation of drivers that are in non-equidistant locations from the listening position without the use of digital processiong. In other words, most are using the stock locations as I am, but the “other side” is using prepackaged components with the passive crossover network and claims to have this miracle imaging. I don't buy it! 



The Baron Groog said:


> You've not thrown out any myth, just argued with yourself and drawn 1 all


I do that all the time!:blush:



The Baron Groog said:


> Buy a Mclaren F1 or build a single seater-either would give you "install only" imaging.


Cool! Give me the money to buy one and I will. Note, I said “give” not loan!:laugh:


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## quality_sound

Many, many old school comp winners would HIGHLY disagree with you. You CAN create a proper stage with proper imaging without T/A. It's been done many, many times. It's a hell of a lot harderand you have to really understand what you're doing but it can be done.


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## quality_sound

chefhow said:


> So you are saying that without any kind of time alignment and digital processing you have a center image and staging from both seats?


Without processing (t/a) is the only way TO get a center image and staging from both sides of the car IME. As soon as you apply t/a your'e creating a single sweet spot. 

Way back in the day IASCA judged cars from both sides. I think they still do in one of the classes.


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## ChrisB

quality_sound said:


> Many, many old school comp winners would HIGHLY disagree with you. You CAN create a proper stage with proper imaging without T/A. It's been done many, many times. It's a hell of a lot harderand you have to really understand what you're doing but it can be done.


While it can be done, I'm saying that it can't be done with a pair of two way component speakers in stock locations and a sub or two. One of the forum peeps told me to look at some EMMA competition vehicles and those are totally different from what I am talking about.


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## ErinH

asymmetric install, one seat car.

done.


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## quality_sound

ChrisB said:


> While it can be done, *I'm saying that it can't be done with a pair of two way component speakers in stock locations* and a sub or two. One of the forum peeps told me to look at some EMMA competition vehicles and those are totally different from what I am talking about.


That wasn't the original premise. Of course you can't do it with stock locations.


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## Cablguy184

chefhow said:


> So you are saying that without any kind of time alignment and digital processing you have a center image and staging from both seats?


and then some ...


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## The Baron Groog

ChrisB said:


> The argument posed by the “other side” is that I just need to angle the speakers better towards my listening position from the stock locations. It still does not address how their installation overcomes the limitation of drivers that are in non-equidistant locations from the listening position without the use of digital processiong. In other words, most are using the stock locations as I am, but the “other side” is using prepackaged components with the passive crossover network and claims to have this miracle imaging. I don't buy it!
> 
> *But that's not what you said in the origninal post*
> 
> I do that all the time!:blush:
> 
> 
> 
> Cool! Give me the money to buy one and I will. Note, I said “give” not loan!:laugh:
> 
> *If i had the money for one of those I wouldn't be "wasting" my time on here-I'd be seeing if I could beat my current best time from La harve to Barcelona-currently stands at 10hrs, avg speed 120mph if stops are ignored*


See above


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## Cablguy184

I don't understand what you are actually trying to accomplish on this thread ChrisB ... You can achieve proper imaging without the use of digital processing
This was my first question to you so I could maybe help or learn ...



Cablguy184 said:


> My first question will be ...
> The stage and image you are trying to accomplish, is it for the driver seat only ??
> or is it for both driver and passenger seats ???


This is the answer you gave me to work with ...



ChrisB said:


> Driver's seat only because I'm selfish. If my wife wants to hear good music, she can drive her own car.


Then I decided that I could not help because I was trained to set my truck up with driver and passenger stage and image ... Then I read this ...



ChrisB said:


> The argument posed by the “other side” is that I just need to angle the speakers better towards my listening position from the stock locations. It still does not address how their installation overcomes the limitation of drivers that are in non-equidistant locations from the listening position without the use of digital processiong. In other words, most are using the stock locations as I am, but the “other side” is using prepackaged components with the passive crossover network and claims to have this miracle imaging. I don't buy it!


I'm not shure what you mean by "other side" but I have an Idea ... Tuning one seat and tuning two seat is totally two different setups ... I'm not sure if you can tune a one seat setup without processing/time alignment (unless you have a one seat car) ... 

The reason this thread struck my attention is I know I have my truck setup with three 2 channel amps (1 for front, 1 for rear, and 1 for subs - all class a/b amps), a passive 6.5 component set in the kick pannels and a pillars, and my truck stages and images great without processing / time alignment. The stage is beyond both my mirrors and out on the hood and the entire stage is eye level with a distinct center channel affect. With a "on the dash" bass response to boot !!! and yes I'm using rear fill to enhance the front stage, and my subs are in the bed of the truck and not in my dash ... 

What is so hard for you to understand about this ???


----------



## chefhow

Cablguy184 said:


> and then some ...


Is it centered based on the listeners seating position or based on the dash? I have sat in many 2 seat cars that are centered for each seat and not for the entire car. I'm not saying its not possible but when you are using just kick panels and a pillars its very unlikely.


----------



## antikryst

Cablguy184 said:


> The reason this thread struck my attention is I know I have my truck setup with three 2 channel amps (1 for front, 1 for rear, and 1 for subs - all class a/b amps), a passive 6.5 component set in the kick pannels and a pillars, and my truck stages and images great without processing / time alignment. The stage is beyond both my mirrors and out on the hood and the entire stage is eye level with a distinct center channel affect. With a "on the dash" bass response to boot !!! and yes I'm using rear fill to enhance the front stage, and my subs are in the bed of the truck and not in my dash ...
> 
> What is so hard for you to understand about this ???


im a newbie, curious on how you got proper image... just speaker placement alone? can you explain how you got this setup?


----------



## Cablguy184

chefhow said:


> Is it centered based on the listeners seating position or based on the dash? I have sat in many 2 seat cars that are centered for each seat and not for the entire car. I'm not saying its not possible but when you are using just kick panels and a pillars its very unlikely.




















This truck sounds exactly the same on both sides of the vehicle except the center is just to the right on the driver side, and just to the left on the passenger side ... meaning the center is in the dead center on the hood of the truck ...


----------



## Cablguy184

antikryst said:


> im a newbie, curious on how you got proper image... just speaker placement alone? can you explain how you got this setup?


Here is my build log ... http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-member-build-logs/90565-cablguys-1997-chevy-silverado-1500-extended-cab-sq.html

I think most of my info is there ... I you have questions, please ask me there and I will answer them ASAP ... Thanks ...


----------



## ChrisB

The Baron Groog said:


> But that's not what you said in the origninal post


Yeah, that was my bad because I left out some details.



Cablguy184 said:


> The reason this thread struck my attention is I know I have my truck setup with three 2 channel amps (1 for front, 1 for rear, and 1 for subs - all class a/b amps), a passive 6.5 component set in the kick pannels and a pillars, and my truck stages and images great without processing / time alignment. The stage is beyond both my mirrors and out on the hood and the entire stage is eye level with a distinct center channel affect. With a "on the dash" bass response to boot !!! and yes I'm using rear fill to enhance the front stage, and my subs are in the bed of the truck and not in my dash ...
> 
> What is so hard for you to understand about this ???


Actually, this thread was not directed at you. I started it because of what a certain someone who is on vacation from the forum constantly argues with me as about well as one of my “audiophile” friends. Both constantly argue that I wasted my time using active crossovers and time alignment; whereas my argument is that I did the best I could in my given situation. Another constant is that both tout install and placement knowing full well that stealth was my goal, therefore utilizing stock locations was a must!

So, given the constraints of using these locations for stealth purposes, what would you (or anyone else) have done differently:










While that is an old photo, I chose the Tang Band W4-1757SB for the 6x8 location because it appeared to have the best off-axis frequency response dispersion plot. For the stock 8" location I went with a Mach5 Audio MLI-65, mainly because I had a limited depth of ≈ 2.5" in the sealed ≈ .75 cubic feet factory pod.

The console gives me a pretty bad spike at 250 Hz and removing it alleviates that spike. I also had some other weird anomalies at 1,500 Hz and 14 to 15 kHz. As a result I cut those frequencies via PEQ.

Finally, had I gone with something like the Alpine SPX-Z15M, I probably wouldn't be having this argument. That component set contains a passive crossover on steroids.


----------



## Cablguy184

Its all good bro ... SQ arguements are ALOT more fun than SPL stuff ... (not that anybody argues around here) ... lol ...

I would really like to see the full door(s) and dash before I gave a suggestion ...
but the first thing I would do is run those 8s in the doors full range (no crossovers whatsoever) and disable the drivers just above the 8s and go from there ... 

I've heard that the larger the midbass driver (cone area), the bigger chances that they will pull your stage down ... 
This is the reason I run 6.5s in my kick pannels ...

This is of course tuning for trial and error, not permenant ... just a suggestion here bro ...


----------



## pwnt by pat

What is being defined as proper imaging?


----------



## Cablguy184

pwnt by pat said:


> What is being defined as proper imaging?


Over 600 post on DIYMA and you do not know the answer to this question ??
Or are you just trying to start something ???
Please use the Search DIYMA function to seek the answer this question ... Thanks ...


Soundstage: A listening term that refers to the placement of a stereo image in a fashion that replicates the original performance. A realistic soundstage has proportional width, depth and height.

Imaging: Listening term. A good stereo system can provide a stereo image that has width, depth and height. The best imaging systems will define a nearly holographic re-creation of the original sound.


----------



## subwoofery

lol 

Kelvin


----------



## pwnt by pat

lol indeed



Cablguy184 said:


> Over 600 post on DIYMA and you do not know the answer to this question ??
> Or are you just trying to start something ???
> Please use the Search DIYMA function to seek the answer this question ... Thanks ...
> 
> 
> Soundstage: A listening term that refers to the placement of a stereo image in a fashion that replicates the original performance. A realistic soundstage has proportional width, depth and height.
> 
> Imaging: Listening term. A good stereo system can provide a stereo image that has width, depth and height. The best imaging systems will define a nearly holographic re-creation of the original sound.


No need to get mad bro. The question was actually to make sure the op isn't confusing staging with imaging.

An better way of explaining imaging is that there is proper instrument placement in the soundstage as intended by the original mastering.

I'm really curious to hear how you can achieve stereo stereo reproduction in your truck. Not just "look at my pics" or "I use processing."


----------



## ChrisB

pwnt by pat said:


> lol indeed
> 
> 
> 
> No need to get mad bro. The question was actually to make sure the op isn't confusing staging with imaging.
> 
> An better way of explaining imaging is that there is proper instrument placement in the soundstage as intended by the original mastering.
> 
> I'm really curious to hear how you can achieve stereo stereo reproduction in your truck. Not just "look at my pics" or "I use processing."


Many, many, moons ago, I played slide trombone, valve trombone, and baritone in the brass section of both school band and a symphony orchestra. One of the things I learned long ago is that reproduced sound and live sound are two completely different animals.

One of the last issues in my car that has yet to be addressed by time alignment is some of the "world" music that I listen to, such as Dead Can Dance, and some other weird stuff that has phasing in the recorded material. When reproduced in the car and compared to a reference system, I noticed that the car has odd phasing issues which I feel are compounded by the non-equidistant placement of the drivers. 

Oh well, it's just car audio and my current setup is "good enough" for 90% of the material I listen to. Sure there is always room for improvement, but, I am also at the point of the law of diminishing returns. For every issue I address, I seem to screw something else up.


----------



## rommelrommel

cajunner said:


> nobody paid the DecWare fee and put the schematic up, this appears to be the OG intent.
> 
> look at it, it explains how it works in the advertising copy, they say that you have 15 degrees of delay when you wire speakers in series, so by adding a series circuit to one side of the car and not the other, in those frequencies that coincide with the amount of delay added you can shift the image to one side or the other.
> 
> is it true? no idea.


Phase shift =! T/A, but I'm sure you knew that.


----------



## pwnt by pat

Without a doubt, live performances and reproductions will sound different. I think it has something to do with a word that begins with s and ends with pace.

I think it's funny when people talk about imaging. Especially when it's in a room with very high background noise, using generically recorded/processed music material, and attempting to reproduce it with a playback system not supported by the original recording method.

Cablguy184, that was not a slice against you.


----------



## ChrisB

Some wonder why artists and producers don't get along. After all, was that guitar really recorded in stereo? How about the vocals? Things that make you go hmm.....


----------



## Cablguy184

pwnt by pat said:


> lol indeed
> 
> 
> 
> No need to get mad bro. The question was actually to make sure the op isn't confusing staging with imaging.
> 
> An better way of explaining imaging is that there is proper instrument placement in the soundstage as intended by the original mastering.
> 
> I'm really curious to hear how you can achieve stereo stereo reproduction in your truck. Not just "look at my pics" or "I use processing."


I wasn't mad at all bro ... and I've been in a few Sound Quality comps so I (and ChrisB) know what stage and image means ... thanks ... 
My pics was posted to show driver placement ... not to explain stereo reproduction ... and I *do not* use processing / time alignment ...

You live anywhere close to Mississippi ??? for a Demo ??? I will be at a local show all day Saturday ...


----------



## Cablguy184

pwnt by pat said:


> Without a doubt, live performances and reproductions will sound different. I think it has something to do with a word that begins with s and ends with pace.
> 
> I think it's funny when people talk about imaging. Especially when it's in a room with very high background noise, using generically recorded/processed music material, and attempting to reproduce it with a playback system not supported by the original recording method.
> 
> Cablguy184, that was not a slice against you.


Its cool with me bro ... If I could fit a IMAX theater setup in my truck ... You know I would do it ... :laugh:


----------



## ErinH

pwnt by pat said:


> Without a doubt, live performances and reproductions will sound different. I think it has something to do with a word that begins with s and ends with pace.


agreed. or more specifically, environment.

"listen to a live show"... okay, and what is that supposed to tell me other than how a guitar sounds amplified (or not) in a venue that has x,000 seats, a volume of xft^3, people standing in the volume, any number/type of things in the volume, the geometry of the volume (space), etc...

I just get sick of hearing that "I know what it should sound like because I went to the show". No, you know what it should sound like from the EXACT perspective of where you sat at that show, given all the same environmental effects of the time you saw the show. That's it. 

The key isn't anything other than "space" or "environment". The environment affects what you hear and your seat is not indicative of sound at another seat. If your goal is to recreate that exact same sound you heard in your seat, that's fine. But don't assume that it's the same sound the guy in the front row, sitting dead center, heard. Hell, for that fact, don't assume you have the hearing memory to be able to reproduce the same sound to any degree that you remember it being.


----------



## pwnt by pat

To tie this back in with imaging:








(speaker placement)

vs










vs (this is the view from the stage - the entire venue)










In the bottom one it's not uncommon for the performers to walk around the venue and play all around you simultaneously.


----------



## Cablguy184

pwnt by pat said:


> To tie this back in with imaging:
> (speaker placement)
> 
> vs
> 
> vs (this is the view from the stage - the entire venue)
> 
> In the bottom one it's not uncommon for the performers to walk around the venue and play all around you simultaneously.


Awesome pics Bro ... But lets get back on topic ...
Do you think is is possible to set up stageing and imageing (for the op's driver seat setup or even my driver and passenger seat setup) in a vehicle without time alignment and/or processing ??? 
Also, I have a question ... I use my rears to enhance the front stage and rear ambience ... any suggestions ??? I think this will help the op (and myself) in this thread ...


----------



## pwnt by pat

You can get a good sized stage, but you can never, ever, achieve proper imaging without center seating regardless of how much processing you throw at it. Stereo image reproduction requires crosstalk that can never be corrected for off-center listening.


----------



## asota

The last concert I went to I was lucky enough to get 4th row seats but far to the left of of this huge stage that had stacks of speakers on the far left and right on the stage. I never heard one note from the right speaker all night in fact I'm still trying to get all my hearing back and that was 20 years ago. That is what a real stage is like. In a car though with allot of trial and error you can get a very solid center image without TA. In fact in many cases TA is a waste of $ I heard a car that had every over-priced electronic gadget in the world in it but you couldn't even hear the front stage cause the sub amp was over-gained to the point of making you noxious.


----------



## Niebur3

Cablguy184 said:


> This truck sounds exactly the same on both sides of the vehicle except the center is just to the right on the driver side, and just to the left on the passenger side ... meaning the center is in the dead center on the hood of the truck ...


I hate to argue, but I do have to say that I remember your truck from USACi finals in 2009 and unless you changed something, (same brand of amps and same speaker placement from what I remember) I sat in your truck and the image was NOT centered. I know because I was having issues with 2-seat tuning myself and was side biased. I listened that day (and some of the next day) to as many cars as I could to compare and it was no better than my car as far as biased goes..... right in front of the listener. in fact, the only one that was dead on, was a red mustang that I realized was tuned for 1-seat. You may have yourself convinced otherwise and if you don't believe me, just have a co-worker that hasn't heard your truck and don't tell them before hand anything, just ask them where the singer is. 

Now, I am not bashing your system, it did many things well and back in the day, I have had other cars that have imaged very good without a DSP, just never dead on. Besides, time alignment does more than just help with imaging.


----------



## Cablguy184

Niebur3 said:


> I hate to argue, but I do have to say that I remember your truck from USACi finals in 2009 and unless you changed something, (same brand of amps and same speaker placement from what I remember) I sat in your truck and the image was NOT centered. I know because I was having issues with 2-seat tuning myself and was side biased. I listened that day (and some of the next day) to as many cars as I could to compare and it was no better than my car as far as biased goes..... right in front of the listener. in fact, the only one that was dead on, was a red mustang that I realized was tuned for 1-seat. You may have yourself convinced otherwise and if you don't believe me, just have a co-worker that hasn't heard your truck and don't tell them before hand anything, just ask them where the singer is.
> 
> Now, I am not bashing your system, it did many things well and back in the day, I have had other cars that have imaged very good without a DSP, just never dead on. Besides, time alignment does more than just help with imaging.


I'm going to have to go back and look at my score sheet from that event ... I'm wanting to say I scored really high on center ...
(can't remember exactly, But I will be sure to let you know what Tim scored my center stage then) ... 
Swapped to the New Blues drivers, had problems with the XO3, and some other small details (I don't care to mention) got me 4th place against VERY expencive setups like the Car Toys Skyline and Roy Anderson's (Todd Crowder) Lexus ... If my truck had problems or not, It done very well for my first world Finals event going up against the best in the car audio Sound Quality world ... Yes, theres been alot of changes (that I'm not going to give out at this time) since USACI WF 2009 ... But the center channel is ALOT more on track ... Thanks bro ... I will be in Shreveport this year running Street Q ...

BTW ... What vehicle and what class was you running that year ?? (if you don't mind me asking) ...


----------



## asota

The biggest problem I have found running without TA is no-matter how close to dead on your center image is some die hard TA folks will pre-judge and find fault deserved or not. I guess we just have to live with it. I listened to a car last summer at a show it had like 100 hrs. of TA tuning I didn't think it sounded very good at all very sterile no mid-bass subs behind tweeters sounded like tweeters not cymbals. It won best of show SQ and I'm thinking if this is what it is supposed sound like? This car at world finals in front of real judges got one of the lowest scores in the whole show. You can get a very focused center image without TA.just don't tell anyone you don't have it.


----------



## Niebur3

Cablguy184 said:


> I'm going to have to go back and look at my score sheet from that event ... I'm wanting to say I scored really high on center ...
> (can't remember exactly, But I will be sure to let you know what Tim scored my center stage then) ...
> Swapped to the New Blues drivers, had problems with the XO3, and some other small details (I don't care to mention) got me 4th place against VERY expencive setups like the Car Toys Skyline and Roy Anderson's (Todd Crowder) Lexus ... If my truck had problems or not, It done very well for my first world Finals event going up against the best in the car audio Sound Quality world ... Yes, theres been alot of changes (that I'm not going to give out at this time) since USACI WF 2009 ... But the center channel is ALOT more on track ... Thanks bro ... I will be in Shreveport this year running Street Q ...
> 
> BTW ... What vehicle and what class was you running that year ?? (if you don't mind me asking) ...


I was in the white Firebird, right by you (finishing 5th). I have always had a problem with the finishing order as it seemed very politically motivated. That Car Toys GT-R (finals sponsored by Car Toys) looked fantastic, but sounded like ****. It really didn't do anything well when I heard it. I really didn't hear any car that weekend that did much better than our cars as far as center, but it was still biased. I will be there with either 1 or 2 cars, but none doing street Q. Would love to meet up with you though and chat.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

scott I see you lurking. thoughts?


----------



## SQ Audi

Cablguy184 said:


> Thanks bro ... I will be in Shreveport this year running Street Q ...
> 
> BTW ... What vehicle and what class was you running that year ?? (if you don't mind me asking) ...


Randall, 

What vehicle are you running Street Q in? It cannot be your truck, as the truck is a SQ vehicle. I am also pretty sure that it could be construed as an unfair advantage for a seasoned SQ veteran to be competing in a class below intro as a crossover class for SPL competitors. I helped write those rules and I don't remember there being any loopholes that says an SQ competitor can build an SPL vehicle and compete in Street Q.

I will have to doublecheck but I think you will need to speak to Ralph about this.

--Joe


----------



## Cablguy184

Ruperto Aguilar is a seasoned veteran and won 1st in that class (Street Q) last year 2010 ... How can he do it and I can't ?? 
He has been competing SQ for YEARS !!! 
Rules say I have to be in a SPL class to run Street Q ... I also run Street beat 2 and Superstock SPL with my truck ... But if that is the case, I will run what ever class I need too ...


----------



## Cablguy184

Niebur3 said:


> I was in the white Firebird, right by you (finishing 5th). I have always had a problem with the finishing order as it seemed very politically motivated. That Car Toys GT-R (finals sponsored by Car Toys) looked fantastic, but sounded like ****. It really didn't do anything well when I heard it. I really didn't hear any car that weekend that did much better than our cars as far as center, but it was still biased. I will be there with either 1 or 2 cars, but none doing street Q. Would love to meet up with you though and chat.


Yes !!! I remember you know ... Very Clean ride. I think those drivers mounted on top of your dash was throwing you off as far as the center goes ... but sounded GREAT !!! Why wasn't you at 2010 finals ??? 

Hey, last year I found a cool small bar with a few GREAT dart boards !!! Maybe meet up for a beer or 2 ... Sounds GREAT !!!


----------



## Niebur3

Cablguy184 said:


> Yes !!! I remember you know ... Very Clean ride. I think those drivers mounted on top of your dash was throwing you off as far as the center goes ... but sounded GREAT !!! Why wasn't you at 2010 finals ???
> 
> Hey, last year I found a cool small bar with a few GREAT dart boards !!! Maybe meet up for a beer or 2 ... Sounds GREAT !!!


Broken Ankle and subsequent surgery. Yeah, I agree....the pods caused some of it (especially since it was really on axis) but also the slope of the windshield/dash acted as horns and made the problem worse. That car is currently under reconstruction and should be at finals, but my new demo car (Acura TL) will definitely be there. 

Yeah, I would be happy to meet up you...that would be pretty sweet. My wife may come with me again, well have to see.


----------



## SQ Audi

Cablguy184 said:


> Ruperto Aguilar is a seasoned veteran and won 1st in that class (Street Q) last year 2010 ... How can he do it and I can't ??
> He has been competing SQ for YEARS !!!
> Rules say I have to be in a SPL class to run Street Q ... I also run Street beat 2 and Superstock SPL with my truck ... But if that is the case, I will run what ever class I need too ...


Ruperto didn't run his SQ car in that class. I was told tonight that being a former SQ person, you can run an SPL car in the Street Q class, but, my understanding is that you won't be able to run your truck since it is already a SQ car first, and SPL second. 

Again, ask Ralph as he is the final authority on this subject. Street Q is only for SPL guys that want to try their hand at SQ. Not the other way around.

The car that Ruperto ran, has never competed in SQ contest...it is a trunk car for SPL. This is why he was allowed in the class. Again, I can't stress this enough, you have to talk to Ralph for the final say, but, when we wrote the rules for this class, the original intent was that NO SQ person would be allowed to compete since Street Q is below even Intro. If you are allowed to compete with your truck in Street Q, you will not be allowed to compete in SQ for Finals. That part I am sure of.


----------



## Mic10is

SQ Stang said:


> Ruperto didn't run his SQ car in that class. I was told tonight that being a former SQ person, you can run an SPL car in the Street Q class, but, my understanding is that you won't be able to run your truck since it is already a SQ car first, and SPL second.
> 
> Again, ask Ralph as he is the final authority on this subject. Street Q is only for SPL guys that want to try their hand at SQ. Not the other way around.
> 
> The car that Ruperto ran, has never competed in SQ contest...it is a trunk car for SPL. This is why he was allowed in the class. Again, I can't stress this enough, you have to talk to Ralph for the final say, but, when we wrote the rules for this class, the original intent was that NO SQ person would be allowed to compete since Street Q is below even Intro. If you are allowed to compete with your truck in Street Q, you will not be allowed to compete in SQ for Finals. That part I am sure of.


When you talk to Ralph, talk about how much you spend in entry fees and then mention you may give MECA or IASCA a try---then you'll be able to do what you want and may even be one of the lucky few to have your score sheet added correctly at Finals.


----------



## Cablguy184

SQ Stang said:


> Ruperto didn't run his SQ car in that class. I was told tonight that being a former SQ person, you can run an SPL car in the Street Q class, but, my understanding is that you won't be able to run your truck since it is already a SQ car first, and SPL second.
> 
> Again, ask Ralph as he is the final authority on this subject. Street Q is only for SPL guys that want to try their hand at SQ. Not the other way around.
> 
> The car that Ruperto ran, has never competed in SQ contest...it is a trunk car for SPL. This is why he was allowed in the class. Again, I can't stress this enough, you have to talk to Ralph for the final say, but, when we wrote the rules for this class, the original intent was that NO SQ person would be allowed to compete since Street Q is below even Intro. If you are allowed to compete with your truck in Street Q, you will not be allowed to compete in SQ for Finals. That part I am sure of.


Thats fine with me bro ... I'm not trying to argue in any kind of way ... I just didn't know ... I was in Super Mod Q at USACI Finals and I will stay there ... thats fine with me ... Its all good bro ...


----------



## SQ Audi

Mic10is said:


> When you talk to Ralph, talk about how much you spend in entry fees and then mention you may give MECA or IASCA a try---then you'll be able to do what you want and may even be one of the lucky few to have your score sheet added correctly at Finals.


I tried MECA last year, and didn't like it that much. I actually spent more in my entry fees at one show in MECA than one show in USAC. Ralph already knows I compete in all 3, although this year I will only be in USAC and IASCA.


----------



## SQ Audi

Cablguy184 said:


> Thats fine with me bro ... I'm not trying to argue in any kind of way ... I just didn't know ... I was in Super Mod Q at USACI Finals and I will stay there ... thats fine with me ... Its all good bro ...


No argument from me here. I too thought about building an SPL vehicle and then competing in Street Q as kinda a rous. Like trying to goad my friends into competing in SQ to "see what it is all about", but when I stated my intentions, I was told that since I compete in SQ, that I wouldn't be allowed to. This was of course before Ruperto competed with his car.

Your truck sounds daggum good, stick where you are most needed. Super Mod Q doesn't have enough in it to lose one for Street Q. Looking forward to meeting you at Finals anyway. I will be in the Silver Mustang Convertible.


----------



## Cablguy184

Mic10is said:


> When you talk to Ralph, talk about how much you spend in entry fees and then mention you may give MECA or IASCA a try---then you'll be able to do what you want and may even be one of the lucky few to have your score sheet added correctly at Finals.


Team Linear/ Blues is already competing MECA ... I just haven't had time off of work and money to compete with them. But next season, I will be joining my team in competing MECA ... But I will be sticking with USACI, I have alot of fun there ... 
Since a well respected Sound Quality competitor can stage and image a SPL car and blow away people in that class. I don't see that fair either ...

But again, we are getting WAY off topic here ... not of this is got to do with being able to stage and image a vehicle with or without processing and/or time alignment ...


----------



## Cablguy184

SQ Stang said:


> Your truck sounds daggum good, stick where you are most needed. Super Mod Q doesn't have enough in it to lose one for Street Q. Looking forward to meeting you at Finals anyway. I will be in the Silver Mustang Convertible.


Thanks Bro ... I will def. see you there ...


----------



## quality_sound

pwnt by pat said:


> You can get a good sized stage, but you can never, ever, achieve proper imaging without center seating regardless of how much processing you throw at it. Stereo image reproduction requires crosstalk that can never be corrected for off-center listening.


I've been in cars that do it. Tyrone Chestnut's Accord did it and did it very well and he wasn't even running hirns. Almost all of the SW cars did it as well. Last time I looked, none of those cars had center seating.


----------



## Cablguy184

Niebur3 said:


> Broken Ankle and subsequent surgery. Yeah, I agree....the pods caused some of it (especially since it was really on axis) but also the slope of the windshield/dash acted as horns and made the problem worse. That car is currently under reconstruction and should be at finals, but my new demo car (Acura TL) will definitely be there.
> 
> Yeah, I would be happy to meet up you...that would be pretty sweet. My wife may come with me again, well have to see.


WOW ... Hope you are all better now ...


----------



## Cablguy184

SQ Stang said:


> I will be in the Silver Mustang Convertible.


Any Pics or build log of this ride any where ?? 
I don't remember this ride at 2010 finals ... Where was you parked ???


----------



## SQ Audi

I didn't make 2010 show...was forced not to compete due to job situation aka unemployed.

Here is a link to pics of the car though. I think you are allowed to view it. if not, just friend me on facebook. I will pm you my name.

SQ Stang


----------



## Cablguy184

I can def. understand that "Job got other plans" thing ... 4 sure ...
Sorry, I have no facebook ...


----------



## Wheres The Butta

SQ Stang said:


> I didn't make 2010 show...was forced not to compete due to job situation aka unemployed.
> 
> Here is a link to pics of the car though. I think you are allowed to view it. if not, just friend me on facebook. I will pm you my name.
> 
> SQ Stang


nice setup =)


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## SQ Audi

Thank you...too bad it is all out now, and new stuff to announce will be in soon!


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## Wheres The Butta

SQ Stang said:


> Thank you...too bad it is all out now, and new stuff to announce will be in soon!


tried to send you a PM but yours are disabled apparently?


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## The Real Old Guy

Just read this thread. Look you can get a great center without T/A. My car has been around competing since 1999. It had kickpanels with 5 1/4's and 1 inch tweets from the get go. We spent a solid week playing with the angles of the 5 1/4's. You use your eq's, crossovers and speaker placement to get a center. Yes you have to use tweets in the door pilars to get the edges of the stage to stay high. 

Now if you are commited to using stock locations I would suggest getting an Ms-8 or some other processor because the physics of the speaker placement in stock locations won't allow for a center in a two seat car. Now you "might" be able to get a center if you are just setting up a driver's seat car with stock locations just using e/q's and crossovers.

By the way Cableguy has been in my car and he can back up my claims.


Markey Dietrich

Since 1995 competitor (World Champion) USAC/IASCA, judge and general pain in the ass


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## Cablguy184

Wut Up Markey !!! 
Glad to see you blow the dust off of IGGY and meet us at USACI Finals ...
That was Awesome !!! 
Yea, Iggy Sounds Awesome 4 sure ... Hopefully you was impressed with my "White Lightning" ...


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## Woosey

How about shifting phase passive with a "all-pass network" 

No processing, just adjusting phase...


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## ChrisB

Woosey said:


> How about shifting phase passive with a "all-pass network"
> 
> No processing, just adjusting phase...


A custom built passive network is one way to do it! The only drawback to the custom built passive comes from blowing a driver. 9 times out of 10, one would end up having to rebuild the custom passive because an exact replacement proves difficult to obtain. I actually know someone who built a competition vehicle in the 90s utilizing this exact method and his vehicle literally blew everyone else away. 

Finally, I know one of the Alpine lines let you shift phase to compensate for positioning, but I can't remember if it was the SPX Pro or the F#1 Status or both.


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## 8675309

! LOL ! 


Mic10is said:


> When you talk to Ralph, talk about how much you spend in entry fees and then mention you may give MECA or IASCA a try---then you'll be able to do what you want and may even be one of the lucky few to have your score sheet added correctly at Finals.


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## 8675309

My response is yes and no.

If you have a left and right seat then no, if you have a center seat with a full range driver and a sub that measures the exact same distance to ears then yes. I have been really playing with open back and dipole setups lately in the home and it is an entirely different ball park. One thing I know for a fact is you will never get a perfect 2 seat car, 1 seat driver with proper tune then you have a chance. 8 foot triangle with perfect distance with larger full range left, full range right, sub, active then yes.


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## ChrisB

8675309 said:


> My response is yes and no.
> 
> If you have a left and right seat then no, if you have a center seat with a full range driver and a sub that measures the exact same distance to ears then yes. I have been really playing with open back and dipole setups lately in the home and it is an entirely different ball park. One thing I know for a fact is you will never get a perfect 2 seat car, 1 seat driver with proper tune then you have a chance. 8 foot triangle with perfect distance with larger full range left, full range right, sub, active then yes.


The whole reason I started this thread was because of a certain competitor that I called BS on when he stated that he had a 2 seat competition car with no digital processing and no equalization. While he may not have "digital processing", he has an analog crossover and an analog equalizer right below his head unit. Because he runs the EQ flat at competitions, it justifies his position for having no equalization.

EDIT: He also bragged about all his first place trophies when he won by default due to no competition at the various local spots only to finish dead last at world finals in 2010.


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## 8675309

I know the dude and group and he is one of the best dudes I know! But I still do not think you can get proper in a car with no processing.





ChrisB said:


> The whole reason I started this thread was because of a certain competitor that I called BS on when he stated that he had a 2 seat competition car with no digital processing and no equalization. While he may not have "digital processing", he has an analog crossover and an analog equalizer right below his head unit. Because he runs the EQ flat at competitions, it justifies his position for having no equalization.
> 
> EDIT: He also bragged about all his first place trophies when he won by default due to no competition at the various local spots only to finish dead last at world finals in 2010.


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## ChrisB

8675309 said:


> But I still do not think you can get proper in a car with no processing.


That can be accomplished too! The speaker builder who did the custom passives for his nephew also built his personal Buick sedan using a line driver array with custom passives for 2 seat sound. He spent close to 3 years building the car in his spare time, then sold it within a few months of finishing the setup because he was tired of looking at the car, lol. 

Of course, with all that written, I think people are blowing smoke if they claim that an off the shelf, prepackaged, stereo component set will give them perfect 2 seat sound with no additional processing. I totally agree with you on this because it's just not going to happen! OTOH, I do have a marketing thread going in this subforum that addresses the hype they believe in. :laugh:


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## Sarthos

Sorry, but I really have never found a car that's had "perfect" two seat sound. Lots of cars that sound great in every seat, but never where it sounds identical in every seat, nor does any individual seat sound perfect. If nothing else, I throw in a CD that has strong right/left sounds, and it becomes noticeable that if you're in a driver's seat, left sounds are louder and right sounds are louder in the passenger's seat.


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## Hillbilly SQ

If you've been brainwashed into thinking an overpriced passive set will image perfect from both seats with mids in kicks and tweets in pillars your brain will tell so such is true if you're weak minded and/or just plain ignorant. Funny how Team Blues competes against no one so they can come in first and then gets their ass handed to them at finals. Then there's that requirement that you can't have a dsp if you're with Team Blues. Apparently RayRay and his cult are going around telling people the laws of physics don't apply to his "magical" speakers:laugh:


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## Jimi77

You can certainly achieve proper imaging without time delay. PLD, aiming, phase and intensity basically ~eclipse time delay. I'm also able to achieve good imaging on my computer despite one of the speakers being closer than the other.


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## S3T

Two seat, many seat, stereo, with proper imaging, depth of soundstage and L/R pan? No EQ, TA, anything? 
That's an easy task!
Headphones will do that! 

Add some subwoofer for tactile involvement of listeners, and call it a day!


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## hottcakes

S3T said:


> Two seat, many seat, stereo, with proper imaging, depth of soundstage and L/R pan? No EQ, TA, anything?
> That's an easy task!
> Headphones will do that!
> 
> Add some subwoofer for tactile involvement of listeners, and call it a day!


some genius actually started a thread aboot the very thing a while back. damn near everybody shot the idea down as it seems rather unsafe.


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## S3T

Check out the AKG K1000 - they don't block the ears from surrounding sounds.









As an alternative - mount some fullrange drivers next to ears on the headrests. Same headphones, but installed in the car, not on the head.


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