# midrange /dedicated mid bass speaker placement.



## spmpdr (Nov 5, 2009)

I have a 2003 dodge ram reg cab. I have 2 options for my new mibass/midrange speakers.First the speakers the midrange is 2 dayton rs180 6.5" that will run from 600hz -4000 hz 6db/octave,the dedicated midbass is 2 peerless sls 6.5" that will run50-600hz 6/dboctave. Either one can only be placed in either the factory door panel spot or in qlogic kick panel enclosure. There is also a tweeter that is located in the upper portion of the door panel close to the dash that will run 4000-30000khz.Where would you place the speakers if it were you in the door or kick panel? You cannot move the tweeter.


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## ben_lesmana (Jul 13, 2006)

A good common practice is to setup the midbass driver in the door panel, midrange in the kicks, *and* if possible, tweeter in the kicks as well. Why cant you move the tweeter?

Are you running passive with the midbass/midrange?


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## spmpdr (Nov 5, 2009)

ben_lesmana said:


> A good common practice is to setup the midbass driver in the door panel, midrange in the kicks, *and* if possible, tweeter in the kicks as well. Why cant you move the tweeter?
> 
> Are you running passive with the midbass/midrange?


The tweeter is already custom mounted in the door panel ,up close to the dash ,if i moved it there would be a hole in my door panel. i am running passive crossovers.The only issue I can think that might cause a problem is the midrange being to far from the tweeter.


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## LegendJeff (Jun 28, 2009)

spmpdr said:


> The tweeter is already custom mounted in the door panel ,up close to the dash ,if i moved it there would be a hole in my door panel. i am running passive crossovers.The only issue I can think that might cause a problem is the midrange being to far from the tweeter.


i wouldnt think that would be too much of a problem after some TA and a little EQ.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Tons of new people here, all posting without any real information. WOW.

To the OP, why are you running two 6.5" drivers? It doesn't seem you will get much benefit from it (except maybe a little clarity from seperating the octaves covered-but at the cost of beaming your midrange and not having a big midbass for output), especially since I read on here the RAM can hold pretty big drivers in the doors. 

If you are set on what you have, I would suggest the midbass in the doors and the midrange in the kicks. The kicks are more on-axis which will help with beaming from a 6.5" driver and the midbass can play in a IB type situation so it can go a little lower.

Now, in my opinion, I would start over if you already bought the drivers and not the kicks, and definately go another route if you don't have anything yet. I would try and fit 8" midbass or larger in the doors, and a 5.25" in the kicks. You could have the midbass play around 50hz-200hz, midrange 250hz-3khz (covering most of the vocal range), and the tweets up high @ 4khz+ for ambiance and to raise the soundstage.


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## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

I'm with pionkej. 
You really don't want to run the SLS drivers up to 600, and you definitely don't want to run the RS180s up to 4k. 
The SLS are technically subs- while they are great for midbass, 600hz is well into midrange territory. I'd cross them a lot lower than 600hz.
The RS180s will play as low as the SLS, so highpassing them at 600 is a complete waste of usable range. They also break up pretty bad between 2k and 3k so running them up to 4k is going to be a huge letdown. 

What tweeters are you using, and how low can they play? You mention crossing them at 4k but if you can cross them lower your options open up quite a bit. Otherwise I'd suggest either using a real midrange instead of the RS180, or use the RS180 as midbass instead of the SLS (since it'll play higher) and find a midrange that'll fill the gap between the RS180 and your tweeter.


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## spmpdr (Nov 5, 2009)

I misinformed you the rs 180's are really rs150 6" daytons.I am pretty set i what i have ,I have already got the speakers. I know I could get put a bigger driver in the door but I have subs to pick up the low end so if I could get the sls in the range of 50-600hz I thought it would be ok that way.The tweeters are mq quart fsa 216's from a component set that i replaced the driver in.They have a crossover that is 4000hz.I can replace the tweeter as well and the crossover if necessary but would prefer to keep them ,I really like the sound of them.I am really looking at good sq here.Thanks for all the advice.I can cross the mid bass at 200hz on my amp l/p filter and just leave the 600hz resistor out of the pic though if you think that would sound better.I could also leave the bass blocker out on the rs150's to let me know what you think.


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## ben_lesmana (Jul 13, 2006)

Spm,

You need to plan your system more carefully. When you ask about speaker placement, the suggested above will be the best configuration. Place the tweeter in the kicks instead, and if you think that the stage is low, put another tweeter high up in the a-pillar, crossed really high and at lower volume to help bring the stage higher, as suggested by pionkey as well.

But how are you going to divide the frequency to all those drivers? You cant use an MB quart crossover with dayton's midrange and hope it will sound good. Maybe, but highly unlikely. 

The easiest way to do it, but depends on your headunit xo capability, is to run the sub, midbass, and midrange&tweeter actively. With the midrange & tweeter having their passive xo. This way its easier to adjust TA to help everything blends nicely. That's another reason also to have the tweeter close to the midrange.

Or if your headunit is 4 way active capable, run everything actively 

Ben


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## spmpdr (Nov 5, 2009)

ben_lesmana said:


> Spm,
> 
> You need to plan your system more carefully. When you ask about speaker placement, the suggested above will be the best configuration. Place the tweeter in the kicks instead, and if you think that the stage is low, put another tweeter high up in the a-pillar, crossed really high and at lower volume to help bring the stage higher, as suggested by pionkey as well.
> 
> ...


I dont think your understanding me so let me answer your questions. first I stated that i could not move the TWEETER!!! I have custom made door panels and do not want to replace/repair/or patch the hole that will be left by the tweeter if I move it. Second I never stated that i was going to use the mb quart crossover for anything but the tweeter. I will power the daytons off of the crossovers but they will not be crossed over.To divide the frequency i plan to use capacitors and resistors in line with the appropriate speaker.I also have a pretty good h/u that has t/a ,crossover freq,db/octave,lots of different options for s/q on it.I dont know if my h/u is 4 way active capable or not .Its a kenwood exceleon kdc x993 if that helps.How do I run it actively? please explain!!I can buy another set of tweeters but i dont think i need to .If you can suggest anything within the parameters I first specified that would be great or a simple suggestion that doesnt cost a ton of money.thanks for the feed back though


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## ben_lesmana (Jul 13, 2006)

Spm,

As far as tweeter placement, I said "if" in my earlier post. Sorry I might misread your post re the passive xo.

Your head unit is only 2 way capable. High and sub. And one of your amp can xo on 200hz? so you will be running the sub, midbass and mid-tweeter actively. And you need to make a passive crossover for the midrange and tweeter. Yes it can be done, but depends on your equipment and skill, its not trivial. 

You need to be able to measure individual driver and decide on the xo point judging by their freq response. Have you done something like this before?

Other option will be to get an active xover capable of 3 way active, and feeding the high input from the head unit to the active xo and split the signals here. Easier to tune.

Regards,
Ben


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## Hedonistic1 (Sep 25, 2009)

You must experiment with the tweeter placement and install them where they sound good to you. if that happens to be in the kick panels then go buy a $5 set of cheap ass tweeters to fill the holes in your custom door panels. Same thing goes if you put them in the A pillars or if they actually sound the best to you in the door location then you are all set.

if you are using q logic kick panels the midrange should be in those and it will be fairly on axis with those kicks. Putting the sls in the doors is what i would do.

your crossover points are all wacked out! the sls will drop off hard way before 600 hz and the dayton will have a hard time getting as high as you want it, just like what was mentioned above.

in order to run the drivers you want you will need an external processor something like the Audio Control DQX i will be selling soon would work perfect for you. You will need a high out for your passive mids and tweets, and active out for the mid bass, and an active out for the subs. the head unit you have will not do this for you.

Personally i would reconsider the dayton drivers for something along the 4" to 5 1/4" range to match better with the tweeter and midbass cut offs.


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## ben_lesmana (Jul 13, 2006)

Sorry to hijack, 

Hedo, if you're selling i might be interested, can you PM for price?

Ben


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## spmpdr (Nov 5, 2009)

Hedonistic1 said:


> You must experiment with the tweeter placement and install them where they sound good to you. if that happens to be in the kick panels then go buy a $5 set of cheap ass tweeters to fill the holes in your custom door panels. Same thing goes if you put them in the A pillars or if they actually sound the best to you in the door location then you are all set.
> 
> if you are using q logic kick panels the midrange should be in those and it will be fairly on axis with those kicks. Putting the sls in the doors is what i would do.
> 
> ...


.

I can experiment with the tweeter,if can buy a new one any recomendations?I dont have to use those crossover points either if you have a better way to set it up let me know. Can I just use the filtering system from my amps?My amp has a h/p channel @80hz and a l/p [email protected] would those work to give me a better blend?I believe my h/u has a 3 way setup it has dedicated front,rear,sub channel and an outstanding crossover capabilities. I already have the drivers and will use them ,i like the reviews and will not reconsider another driver.


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## bobduch (Jul 22, 2005)

You are getting some really great advice. Claim to want great SQ. But don't seem to be flexible. So you have to compromise. Do it your way and give up some SQ. Or do it our way and give up on simplicity (for lack of a better term).
Not a question of right or wrong. Simply a matter of priority. Good luck.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

The *KEY* point that you might be missing is your original plan puts the drivers outside of their optimal operating frequency range. Like others have stated you should shoot for the crossover points below as a start:

MB Quart FSA-216 Tweeter: *3000Hz - Up*
Dayton RS150 midrange: *200Hz - 3000Hz*
Peerless SLS 6.5 MidBass: *70Hz - 200Hz*

Now....WHAT/HOW MANY amps do you have? a 2 ch, a 4 ch, a 6 ch, WHAT???
The only way to run SIX SPEAKERS passively off a BIG 2 channel amp is to connect a passive 3-way crossover to the drivers.

This OZ Audio Matrix Elite 3-way crossover has points that are close to the desired points. Might make for a cheap solution untill you can get an active crossover and more amps? $40 a pair 
3 WAY OZ AUDIO CROSSOVER-NEW IN BOX:eBay Motors (item 140355925423 end time Nov-27-09 18:30:33 PST)

Crossover: 
Zobel impedance network 
18/24 dB per octave, 3-way crossover 
Three position tweeter attenuation switch 0, -3 dB, -6 dB 
Tweeter polarity switch 0/-180 
Crossover points: 
Tweeter: 3500Hz 
Midrange: 350Hz - 3500Hz
Midbass: 350 Hz 
http://www.rawedge.com/ozaudio/docs/manual_component_matrix380.pdf









Now, if you do indeed have SIX CHANNELS of power for these speakers then by all means....go buy yourself a three-way active crossover and use that over a passive.

And like others have said; REMOVE THE TWEETER FROM THE DOOR! and put it in the Q-Logic kick with the mid. The upper end response of the 6" Dayton is a little rough...even with a crossover it might be a stretch to get it blend with the tweets so far away???

As far as the holes in the door...Like others have said...find a cheap tweet that fits....you don't even need to hook them up. Or maybe you can if they will help with stage height?


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## spmpdr (Nov 5, 2009)

WLDock said:


> The *KEY* point that you might be missing is your original plan puts the drivers outside of their optimal operating frequency range. Like others have stated you should shoot for the crossover points below as a start:
> 
> MB Quart FSA-216 Tweeter: *3000Hz - Up*
> Dayton RS150 midrange: *200Hz - 3000Hz*
> ...


I have decided to take your guys advice and buy a tweeter for the k/p and put the dayton down there to.I will just leave the old tweeter in the door panel.The tweeter i am thinking of buying is a J L AUDIO CRT050.I hvae a 4 channel amp to power it all it has a h/p feature and al/p feature . thanks for the link for the crossover .How should I wire all of these up? The amp puts out 40 watts per channel rms @4ohms stereo, 130watts per [email protected] mono .Wiring suggestions? Tweeter suggestion?Do I still need that crossover?thanks for the patience and i apologize for the stubborness.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

If you're going to keep what equipment you have and run all those drivers off the single 4 channel amp, buy those Oz passives, bridge the amp, and run 130w per side into the xovers. The passives should have some built-in mechanism to attenuate the tweeters so they aren't seeing as much juice, and the xover points are pretty in line with where you want to be. It's not ideal, but it's doable with what you have.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

So, you are saying the only amp you have to power the TWEETERS, MIDS, and MIDBASSES is a 4 x 40 watts amp? Humm....??? Generally I say put the TWEET & MID on Ch 1 & 2 and the MIDBASSES on CH 3 & 4 but... You will need a 2-way passive crossover for the TWEET & MID and a LOW pass crossover for the MIDBASS. So???

Like mikey7182 said, BRIDGE the amp for 130 WATTS x 2 and cross the speakers with a couple of the OZ AUDIO passives. That is as easy and cheap of a solution that you could do for now. ARE YOU SURE YOU CAN"T WAIT A WEEK OR MONTH AND SPEND MORE ON ANOTHER AMP/WIRE/ETC AND AN ACTIVE 3-WAY CROSSOVER????? Can get a nice 2 ch amp and 3-way active on ebay for about $200.

And what tweets are you considering? Did you mean the *JL Audio TR050-CT?* How much do you plan on spending for those? You like a good silk dome? Dude, go pick up a set of the 1" SEAS 27TFFNC/G silk domes for ~ $62 a set. Has to be about one of the better small format silk domes around in that price range. SEAS, H1396 - 1396 by: SEAS Prestige - Meniscus Audio Group, Inc.|

Search around here for more reviews and feedback. They make an Aluminum dome in that SEAS tweet as well:
http://meniscusaudio.com/seas-h1397-p-437.html

And don't sleep on the OZ Passives...You will need *TWO *at $20 each. Looks like there are only 4 available:


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## spmpdr (Nov 5, 2009)

WLDock said:


> So, you are saying the only amp you have to power the TWEETERS, MIDS, and MIDBASSES is a 4 x 40 watts amp? Humm....??? Generally I say put the TWEET & MID on Ch 1 & 2 and the MIDBASSES on CH 3 & 4 but... You will need a 2-way passive crossover for the TWEET & MID and a LOW pass crossover for the MIDBASS. So???
> 
> Like mikey7182 said, BRIDGE the amp for 130 WATTS x 2 and cross the speakers with a couple of the OZ AUDIO passives. That is as easy and cheap of a solution that you could do for now. ARE YOU SURE YOU CAN"T WAIT A WEEK OR MONTH AND SPEND MORE ON ANOTHER AMP/WIRE/ETC AND AN ACTIVE 3-WAY CROSSOVER????? Can get a nice 2 ch amp and 3-way active on ebay for about $200.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info ,I ordered those crossovers. What is the difference between the seas tweeters ? Silk dome i assume is a softer sound and aluminum is louder and brighter?


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## ben_lesmana (Jul 13, 2006)

With all due respect.

THe oz passive xo will not work. I've said previously, by going passive you will need to design your own, not use pre-made ones. Google "designing passive crossover" and you will see what I mean.

With 4 channels, your best bet -for now- will be 2 channels for sub, and 2 channels for a mid and tweeter, dont use the midbass. It will complicate more.

IMO, YMMV.

Ben


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## spmpdr (Nov 5, 2009)

ben_lesmana said:


> With all due respect.
> 
> THe oz passive xo will not work. I've said previously, by going passive you will need to design your own, not use pre-made ones. Google "designing passive crossover" and you will see what I mean.
> 
> ...


Where did the sub come into play? I have a dedicated amp memphis 1000watt monoblock powering 2 re audio 12's .So i dont need to use any of the channels for a sub.


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## ben_lesmana (Jul 13, 2006)

Oops sorry, missed that.

What is the xo option on the 4 channel amp?

You might do: 
Head unit: 
front channel (highpassed from hu): channel A (highpassed again from amp) ->mids+tweets
rear channell (highpassed from hu): channel B (lowpassed from amp) -> midbass
Sub (lowpassed from hu): Memphis -> sub

You are almost set, except the passive for mids & tweeters
Ben


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

ben_lesmana said:


> With all due respect.
> THe oz passive xo will not work. I've said previously, by going passive you will need to design your own, not use pre-made ones. Google "designing passive crossover" and you will see what I mean.
> Ben


Ben, I think we all agree with you on this one. There is no way one can expect world class results with ANY passive crossover in EVERY system...let alone random drivers and crossover. I would not do it myself and I am sure you would not but given the OP's limited options....I think this is a much better way to go than have the OP try to design his own crossover. One can always play with the phase of drivers and EQ to tweak the sound....however the level of the drivers might be an issue?
It is not desirable but not a sin to use a generic crossover just as long as the crossover points are what one is after. There are SO many variables that one has to consider in a passive design that it is not even worth going into it. If guys are "set" on what they want to use then we should encourage them and find a good option for them. 

The real challenge is that the original poster _spmpdr _seems stuck on using the drivers at hand and does not want to pay for another amp and active crossover to build a 4-way active system.

At $40 the OZ crossovers are QUALITY units that should get the job done for him and cross the drivers over at much more realistic crossover points than what _spmpdr_ originally posted. By no means is this close to a perfect option. But, we all have to start somewhere.

I got my start adding a 2-ch amp to the factory deck, then adding caps to the front speakers to block the bass and added a cheap set of tweeters. Next, I wired in a sub to that same 2-ch amp in a mixed Stereo/Mono Tri-Mode config and low passed it with a big coil and cap. What I was rewarded with was MUCH better, fuller, and extended sound than stock. Most don't do this type of thing anymore but it was a start in the right direction back in the late 80's and early 90's.

I think _spmpdr _ is now headed in the "right" direction. When he is ready to "step it up" to better sound...this is a good place to start. Just running a set of point source driver and a sub in a car can be a challenge to get to sound great....let alone a four-way system. _spmpdr _ consider this 4-way system design and installation 101. Oh, there is SO much to learn my friend...but you have to get your feet wet first. Consider this it!

By the middle of next Summer I am sure you will be wanting to have the 4-way active discussion.


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## spmpdr (Nov 5, 2009)

WLDock said:


> Ben, I think we all agree with you on this one. There is no way one can expect world class results with ANY passive crossover in EVERY system...let alone random drivers and crossover. I would not do it myself and I am sure you would not but given the OP's limited options....I think this is a much better way to go than have the OP try to design his own crossover. One can always play with the phase of drivers and EQ to tweak the sound....however the level of the drivers might be an issue?
> It is not desirable but not a sin to use a generic crossover just as long as the crossover points are what one is after. There are SO many variables that one has to consider in a passive design that it is not even worth going into it. If guys are "set" on what they want to use then we should encourage them and find a good option for them.
> 
> The real challenge is that the original poster _spmpdr _seems stuck on using the drivers at hand and does not want to pay for another amp and active crossover to build a 4-way active system.
> ...


I do plan to add an amp down the road and go active with the crossover .If I did go with an active 3 way crossover how much would this change what I am trying to accomplish? The reason I ask is because I seen a audiocontrol 3way active crossover for around 80 bucks that i might be willing to fork out the dough for.here is the crossover Clarion MCD-360


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## spmpdr (Nov 5, 2009)

ben_lesmana said:


> Oops sorry, missed that.
> 
> What is the xo option on the 4 channel amp?
> 
> ...


That is exactly what I wanted to do ,so i should of bought a 2 way passive crossover rated a 200-350 hz?


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## ben_lesmana (Jul 13, 2006)

WLDock,

Ok I see where you're coming from. In a sense I agree, he has to start somewhere. 

So,

My suggestion would be the same as my previous post.

Head unit: 
front channel (highpassed from hu): channel A (highpassed again from amp) ->mids+tweets
rear channell (highpassed from hu): channel B (lowpassed from amp) -> midbass
Sub (lowpassed from hu): Memphis -> sub

You should get a passive crossover that can split signals at around 3-5k for the mid and tweeter. Or if you get the oz passive, use only the midrange and tweeter. Run the midbass active from the 4-channel amp.

Ben


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