# ultimate consequences of buying online



## arrivalanche (Jun 27, 2008)

Now working in the car audio industry for the past 10+ years I can definitely see what ebay and other online stores have done to the industry. I just wanted to get an impression if you DIYers know the consequences of bypassing your local shops. I have personally seen almost half of the stable shops go under the last few years and talking to reps and other shops you hear the same thing, "sales just aren't there." I know the economy is bad anymore but I just see it wrong how people dont support their local shop of choice. Dont you realize that you get a lot more than a higher price for your equipment? You get a warranty that you cant get if you buy it online through unauthorized dealers, not to mention the convenience of having it in stock that day. I just feel that if everyone continues to cut out the middle man they wont be there when you need them, and that it will ultimately effect the brands themselves. I know everyone is looking for the best price, but ultimately it comes at a price to many people. Feel free to give me your opinion.


----------



## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

knowledgable mom and pop shops ftw!!!


----------



## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

Times are tough and consumers are hurting just as bad as these shops are. Why pay more at a shop when you'll be doing the install yourself?

Good shops are few and far betwwen. If there was one in my area that actually provided the benefits you've listed, I would probably buy more from them. As it stands, I buy the majority of my stuff on-line and a few select items from one local retailer.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

When your local shop is telling you it'll be the same price to buy an amp off their display board as opposed to them ordering you one since they do not have it in stock, ... well, I'll just order it online. So much for having it in stock that day, and so much for 'working with you'. 

I'd hope that not all you other guys' local shops are this way.


----------



## hans030390 (Jun 23, 2008)

I buy online to save (a lot of) money. It's as simple as that. A lot of online websites still offer warranties, though they may not be as great as buying from an authorized dealer.


----------



## arrivalanche (Jun 27, 2008)

Its just really killing the industry. I personally after 10 years have said "F it!" and got out of car audio and am back in college. It sucks that I have to quit something I love bc people are cheep. The only thing keeping our area alive is its a rich area where most people are driving porshces and aston martins. even at that its still hard. I just want to find all those guys selling product sideways online and kick each and everyone of them in the balls. I get a kick out of people bringing in their failed product that they bought online and asking us to send it im bc we are a authorized dealer. Good luck with that. Not only do most companies not take it but the ones who do charge you damn near the price of the amp to fix it as a punishment.


----------



## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

Price is a big factor, yes, but not the only factor.

Reasons why I don't go to shops...

1) Items stolen from my car by shop employees (geez, I didn't think I had to take my LED flashlight out of my car to keep it from being stolen).

2) Scratches on my car from where the hacks did something. How do you scratch my rear fender installing an alarm?

3) Poor selection. If I want a Pioneer Premier HU, they many not carry Focal speakers, etc.

4) Crappy installations where installers blatently lie about work done and charge you for it, only to discover later that it wasn't done

5) I typically know more than most of the salespeople and installers so why on Earth would I pay for them to dumb me down with their useless sales sheet jargon instead of facts?

BTW, these things happen at "reputable" shops, not BB or CC. These are independently owned shops. 

It all boils down to this: no one cares about my car or my system as much as I do. No one else can do it correctly. I won't even let anyone else work on my car because more often than not, they screw it up.

P.S. I have never had a single item fail that would have been covered by warranty anyway so what's the point?

P.P.S. This is happening to all industries, not just audio. Online retail is taking a toll on every retail market.


----------



## arrivalanche (Jun 27, 2008)

hans030390 said:


> I buy online to save (a lot of) money. It's as simple as that. A lot of online websites still offer warranties, though they may not be as great as buying from an authorized dealer.


have you ever tested that warranty? I've hear the same story and they dont usually end with any positive results. Now dont get me wrong, some shady shops are the same way to. Once they get your money they dont give a crap what you want or what problems you have. You just have to be smart about where you go.


----------



## Vestax (Aug 16, 2005)

IMO, both sides have fault. I still work in the industry and have been DIYer longer. It's just like almost any market, you're bound to fail if you don't change or adapt. Shops need to be smarter and find better ways to please their target audience and have higher standards.


----------



## arrivalanche (Jun 27, 2008)

Thats a big problem to. ANYONE can open a stereo shop, but there are few that are actually good at it and take pride in their craft. most shops are just a glorified swapmeet. They make the whole industry look stupid.


----------



## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

I buy online because it's either the only place to get what I want, because most of the local shops won't even get product in special order anymore, and becaus I wait less to get any product they have on their board. I odn't know of one single shop that carries a decent amount of stock anymore, they call it "lean" operation, I call it nonsense.

The retail shops havn't adjusted their methods to the fact that the market has changed, simple as that. I don't feel sorry for the dinosaurs for going extinct, and I don't feel sorry for retail shops.

That said, I do buy install accessories locally, and I pay a HUGE premium to have it, plus I usually end up driving all over town trying to find 10 or 12 ring terminals because everyone only carries 2-4 of them.


----------



## trebor (Jun 30, 2008)

Mooble said:


> Price is a big factor, yes, but not the only factor.
> 
> Reasons why I don't go to shops...
> 
> ...


I think you said it best! When I've decided to use a particular product or do something a certain way I usually have a reason and/or have already done research on it, I don't care to be questioned about why at these shops just so they can try to push what they sell over what I want. Wiring/accessories are about all I buy locally.


----------



## k3rry (Jun 30, 2008)

I go to shops to purchase certain things, but only if they can almost match the price I find online. Most of the shops out there will price match as long as it is a legit website. I mainly price match from woofersetc. 
If its something very expensive brand new I just buy it used on eBay and save half if not more.


----------



## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

I would propose a hybrid shop. I think that is the best way to stay in business these days. Unfortunately manufacturers will probably never catch on. They would rather drive into bankruptcy anyone who sells below retail price.

In a hybrid shop, they would carry many sponsored brands, but would also order anything else you wanted. Warranties could be limited to installer error on non-sponsored goods. Anything else would be covered by whichever site sold the goods. Why not? Honda doesn't warranty my tires, Dunlop does. If new cars can have separate warranties, so can audio shops.

Salespeople would have to be trained not to say, "Oh you want brand ____? That's a crappy brand (because we don't sell it)! Let me introduce you to our JL amp." Instead they can simply say, "we don't carry that, but it's your money and we want to make you happy. There will be a $25 surcharge for adding your own choice, but we'll be happy to accomodate you. Thank you for your business."


----------



## Smiling Bob (Jun 17, 2008)

The shops in my (small) town are worthless! High prices on obsolete gear, very little real knowledge, poor workmanship, etc. They only want to do the typical "HU, 2 pair of co-axails and a 10" sub in a pre-fab box", but you better be ready to pay $1500+ for the job. Or the guy who sold be some BA component speakers for nearly full retail, then "forgot" to give me my receipt. When I went back to get it, he refused, all the while swearing he was an authorized dealer. BA was suprised to hear that they had a dealer in my town, in fact they swore they didn't... I wonder who's correct...

"dual 4 ohm subs work exactly the same as single 4 ohm subs, how could the sub change the amps wattage, dude?" (then the 3 guys in the shop laughed at me..) "fiberglass boxes hit way harder, dude" "you should always use all of the same brand gear, otherwise it'll sound unbalanced" are just the tip of the sales advice iceberg...

I fully understand the implications of taking my business online, and I'm willing to deal with the consequences. In fact, I welcome them.


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

I live in BFE, (seriously, one street light and it BLINKS, yellow on one side and red on the other) the closest shop I know of is 20mi away and I wouldn't be cought dead in it... Second closest is 40mi away... And I donno if I'd use them either... Then I could go 60mi out.... lol.... 

It IS a crying shame that things have to progress this way, but it's the natural progression of things.. There is still plenty of business for CC and BB to make thiere head and 4's, but the "mom n pop" shops are definitly taking it in the butt... 

Hell, I can't even DEMO anything I would consider buying, without driving 40mi, and that's IF they have anything I would care to demo...


----------



## Victorinox (Jun 1, 2008)

Price is most important, I`d like my local guys stay in business but NOT at my expense.

Secondly I hate those ignorant sales guys trying to educate me on subject I know 10000 times more about. 

If you want something done.. do it yourself.


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

With me there are several reasons I do not buy from local shops _anymore_.

First, the obvious, prices. 2. Like many people here, I don't always use "car audio" drivers, and think normally DIY speakers are a much better value. I don't use passive crossovers, so I don't need component sets. 3. I install my own equipment, I do it for several reason, I like to know exactly how the system was done and wired, I think I do it better, and I don't like paying people to do what I can already do myself.

Back to prices, why would I or anyone else want to pay a lot more money for gear, just so someone else can make a bigger profit? That really makes no sense. I bought my PDX amps (a 4.150 and 1.600) combined for less than most shops would have charged for each one. If we can buy an amp on ebay for say $300, the dealer is paying less than that, so why would I want buy it from the dealer for $550? What am I really getting for that extra $250?

I'd say it's mostly the manufactuers fault than the consumers. They are the ones that demand shops charge retail on their stuff. If they'd let shops compete more with online dealers with price, the problem wouldn't really exist.


----------



## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

I don't think there will be much support in this forum for local shops as far as online buying goes. We're all DIYers, we do our own sh*t. Every warranty in the world is worded against us. I just couldn't justify buying from a shop if they're not doing the work, especially since I don't have a whole lot of cash to spend. I might be able to afford an old MTX in a shop. Online I can afford a new Zapco. Sorry mom & pop.


----------



## 6APPEAL (Apr 5, 2007)

There are a couple of good shops here where I live and I'm friends with a couple of the guys there, but you pay a preminum price for their products. I do purchase products from them, but only when I have to. Price matching is a joke to them. They will only price match against each other, which is a joke. They will not match BB or CC.

My favorite shop closed several years ago. The owner decided to close shop and retire instead of handing the shop over to the drugged out son. I'm still friends with the installers from that shop.

Besides, you can't buy Linear Power new at any store now, so online it is!
John


----------



## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

arrivalanche said:


> *Its just really killing the industry*. I personally after 10 years have said "F it!" and got out of car audio and am back in college. *It sucks that I have to quit something I love bc people are cheep*. The only thing keeping our area alive is its a rich area where most people are driving porshces and aston martins. even at that its still hard. I just want to find all those guys selling product sideways online and kick each and everyone of them in the balls. I get a kick out of people bringing in their failed product that they bought online and asking us to send it im bc we are a authorized dealer. *Good luck with that. Not only do most companies not take it but the ones who do charge you damn near the price of the amp to fix it as a punishment*.


1. I believe the industry is doing just fine. Unless by "industry" you mean the B&M stores specifically. Mobile electronics are still very hot and sell quite a bit. The fact is we are a more internet based society now than we were even 5 years ago. 

2. Its not people being "cheap", its people being frugal, and spending wisely. If you can buy the same product for a considerable discount, AND install it yourself, I fail to see the great benefit of buying from a B&M store. Fact is, the B&M stores would be doing themselves a service to offer online sales.

3. Exactly the thinking that detracts more people from wanting to buy from a B&M 

Look, I understand these are peoples businesses and their livelyhood and I can respect that. But as times progress and consumer trends change and evolve, the direction and operation of a business needs to change with it to survive and thrive.
A business can complain all they want about the way consumers are purchasing, but it does nothing to serve their purpose. Consumers are buying from internet suppliers in far more areas than electronics these days and those trends continue to increase.

EDIT:
Of course the biggest downside to the consumer is that eventually, the only way to actually HEAR and DEMO the gear will be to listen to someone elses install. I guess its not a huge deal though considering MOST people buy from reputation and word of mouth anyway at this point.


----------



## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

why deal directly with some guy who comes of shady and doesn't list prices and every time you ask about something you feel like every response is uninformed and designed to scam you out of your money, not help you get what you need.

I can buy online, know the price and actually get some protection.

now I live in an area with more shops that most could imagine on both ends of the scale.

the other end is some incredible shops who deal with elite installs at elite budgets.

that is why I had someone half way across the state do my install....great rep, does quality work, always willing to help whether buying form or not and gives a great value for the money.

in fact I think this may be the future for quality installers..... work out of their home, no extra overhead for a shop and though they sell some specific products they will get you whatever you want.





arrivalanche said:


> Thats a big problem to. ANYONE can open a stereo shop, but there are few that are actually good at it and take pride in their craft. most shops are just a glorified swapmeet. They make the whole industry look stupid.


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

If you've been in the industry for ten years, maybe you can actually enlighten us instead of just whining.

How has the market changed? Fewer customers? Fewer big-ticket customers?

What did your shop do? Installations? Mark up electronics 100% and sell them? How did you (not) adapt to the changing market?

Don't accuse us of being cheap, when really, you just have bad business sense. It's 2008, and you're digging your heels in AGAINST the Internet? Don't make me laugh.


----------



## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

For me, there is no consequence of buying online unless I am silly enough to buy from a non-reputable source. I don't need anyone to sell me a product, and I don't need anyone to install it or tell me how to use it. This isn't the case for everyone, but I can only speak from my perspective.


----------



## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

I spent $1200 on my last install and when it all went wrong I tore out EVERYTHING and discovered: They didn't put the baffles in the front and rear doors, they used about 5sq/ft of my raammat and none of the ensolite, 2 of the screw holes on one of my rear coax speakers were broken so literally the speaker was dangling 1/2 way out of the door, box wasn't built like I wanted it, they used a lot of my old wiring and used factory speaker wiring even though I paid for all new wiring to be ran, instead of running a longer 1/0 gauge cable from the front bat to the rear bat they used the same one already installed to a distro and from the distro had a 4gauge cable to my rear bat and finally another 4gauge from the rear bat to my sub amp, gave me a bad RCA cable, and finally blew my CAL 25 tweeters and said they wouldn't buy me new one's because component speakers aren't meant to be ran active....Even though I told them I would tune them and to turn down ALL the amp gains and not to have any volume up on the HU. The only thing they did decent was my kick panels. I'm currently installing my new system myself and doing a lot better and it's my first full install....Their hack job took almost 2 weeks and everytime I had to take it back in for something I noticed was wrong they would take it for 1 or 2 days and half ass doing it right. Just thinking about it pisses me off. Sorry for the rant.


----------



## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

and honestly probably the biggest thing killing small shops is the manufacturers doing OEM work...... most cars now have very nice oem systems that will keep the largest majority of people happy..... then you can upgrade to a JBL/Rockford/Levinson/ or whatever else to take care of the other group would would like something a little nicer.

then you add to that things like standard or cheap ipod controls and you take another group out of the need of aftermarket.....that leaves a very small percentage of people who "need" to upgrade their system.

that group is the SPL crowd, who for many of them will just buy anything that bumps(exaggeration, but point made) and then the SQ crowd.

SQ crowd is finding the advantage of DIY and home drivers and the need to experiment to get it to sound right, which gets way too pricey to have someone else do all the time.

now let's not even get into all the horror stories we have seen of the "quality" work from B&M shops


----------



## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

I would definitely go to a shop that had a large selection of products including higher end and some internet products (sundown, Fi, etc.), if they had a demo board for a lot of it, and if they gave a nice discount on labor when buying their products. Having good installers that no what they're doing and are very knowledgable and don't talk you into buying things you don't need would also be needed.


----------



## arrivalanche (Jun 27, 2008)

capnxtreme said:


> If you've been in the industry for ten years, maybe you can actually enlighten us instead of just whining.
> 
> How has the market changed? Fewer customers? Fewer big-ticket customers?
> 
> ...


The major factors in the industry that have changed is

A) The economy. People want the same equipment, but arent willing to pay the same price.

B) Cars are built like toys now where any knucklehead can (or at least think they can) do it themselves. It makes me sick when I have to get in a car and see some disgusting install that you can tell right away whoever did it should never touch a tool ever again.

C) Yes the internet. You think that its all well and good to buy a JL amp from some online store, but if you knew how they got that equipment you would know that its illegal for some brands to be sold like that not to mention some places remove serial numbers so they cant be tracked for warranty and also some are just referbs sold as new product. Wonder why the price is so low now?

And how do "I" have a bad business sense when Im just a installer smart ass? Im bringing this up solely for the fact that people that buy on the internet are indeed changing how the car audio industry works. Being that shops sell less equipment forces shops to start charging unrealistic labor prices to try to make up for the loss.

Also what is the awesome idea that you have for shops to adapt to the new market? The only somewhat thing Ive seen is adding on home audio. Dont get me wrong, I do know that shops MUST adapt, but they shouldnt have to completely give up on what they are just to keep their heads above water.

Ultimately I understand "why" you buy online, I just see it as immoral to buy it from places that are in the end crooked.


----------



## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

arrivalanche said:


> The major factors in the industry that have changed is
> 
> A) The economy. People want the same equipment, but arent willing to pay the same price.
> 
> ...


And people quickly catch on to this and the shop suffers further because of it...


----------



## arrivalanche (Jun 27, 2008)

beerdrnkr said:


> I spent $1200 on my last install and when it all went wrong I tore out EVERYTHING and discovered: They didn't put the baffles in the front and rear doors, they used about 5sq/ft of my raammat and none of the ensolite, 2 of the screw holes on one of my rear coax speakers were broken so literally the speaker was dangling 1/2 way out of the door, box wasn't built like I wanted it, they used a lot of my old wiring and used factory speaker wiring even though I paid for all new wiring to be ran, instead of running a longer 1/0 gauge cable from the front bat to the rear bat they used the same one already installed to a distro and from the distro had a 4gauge cable to my rear bat and finally another 4gauge from the rear bat to my sub amp, gave me a bad RCA cable, and finally blew my CAL 25 tweeters and said they wouldn't buy me new one's because component speakers aren't meant to be ran active....Even though I told them I would tune them and to turn down ALL the amp gains and not to have any volume up on the HU. The only thing they did decent was my kick panels. I'm currently installing my new system myself and doing a lot better and it's my first full install....Their hack job took almost 2 weeks and everytime I had to take it back in for something I noticed was wrong they would take it for 1 or 2 days and half ass doing it right. Just thinking about it pisses me off. Sorry for the rant.


Unfortunately I feel you on this one. Ive worked for shops where the mang/owner will tell you to cut corners and not do what we told them bc "they will never know". I dont work for people like that and I refuse to lie for them to keep them out of hot water with customers. I can also see why people have started to do things themselves when they take their cars to crappy shops. These places give us all bad names. There are good shops out there that take pride in their work and refuse to cut corners. To the rest well they can sink for all I care.


----------



## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

beerdrnkr said:


> I spent $1200 on my last install and when it all went wrong I tore out EVERYTHING and discovered: They didn't put the baffles in the front and rear doors, they used about 5sq/ft of my raammat and none of the ensolite, 2 of the screw holes on one of my rear coax speakers were broken so literally the speaker was dangling 1/2 way out of the door, box wasn't built like I wanted it, they used a lot of my old wiring and used factory speaker wiring even though I paid for all new wiring to be ran, instead of running a longer 1/0 gauge cable from the front bat to the rear bat they used the same one already installed to a distro and from the distro had a 4gauge cable to my rear bat and finally another 4gauge from the rear bat to my sub amp, gave me a bad RCA cable, and finally blew my CAL 25 tweeters and said they wouldn't buy me new one's because component speakers aren't meant to be ran active....Even though I told them I would tune them and to turn down ALL the amp gains and not to have any volume up on the HU. The only thing they did decent was my kick panels. I'm currently installing my new system myself and doing a lot better and it's my first full install....Their hack job took almost 2 weeks and everytime I had to take it back in for something I noticed was wrong they would take it for 1 or 2 days and half ass doing it right. Just thinking about it pisses me off. Sorry for the rant.



That didnt happen to be Streetnoyz was is?


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

I dont see apoint to buy from a local store, the price is way to high, I mean I can get it online for half the price. A warranty doesnt help me one bit, as long as it works when I recieve it it will stay working in my hands. Anyways I figure if it does fail because of my fault I can still buy another online and prob still have saved money over buying it locally. Any company will say it your fault if you hook it up and something happens to it, so warranties are a gimmick.


Last time I even let a local shop touch my car 2 things got F'uped. They ran my wires thru a rubber boot instead of drilling my firewall and broke apiece of my dash, why would I ever want to pay for something like that again


----------



## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

fredridge said:


> and honestly probably the biggest thing killing small shops is the manufacturers doing OEM work...... most cars now have very nice oem systems that will keep the largest majority of people happy..... then you can upgrade to a JBL/Rockford/Levinson/ or whatever else to take care of the other group would would like something a little nicer.
> 
> then you add to that things like standard or cheap ipod controls and you take another group out of the need of aftermarket.....that leaves a very small percentage of people who "need" to upgrade their system.
> 
> ...



Very good point - car companies are putting more money into R&D for stock and upgraded stereos for their cars. Just look at Acura and Lexus. Sure their actual equipment may not cost THEM much more, but compare their sound from 10 years ago to now. HUGE difference. I think you're right about that helping kill the B&M shop car stereo industry.

Regarding shops catering to the SQ group, direct me to a shop that wouldn't charge $10000 for even half of the time and effort we've put into our cars. Again, this just isnt the forum to get ANY support for local shops over internet for equipment purchasing.


----------



## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

BlueSQ said:


> That didnt happen to be Streetnoyz was is?


It was Audio Excellence and I had a really bad experience with All Star Audio as well. I threatened to go to the BBB and write about my experience on every car audio forum I could find unless they provide all of the wiring for my current setup and give me some baffles, which they did.


----------



## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

BeatsDownLow said:


> I dont see apoint to buy from a local store, the price is way to high, I mean I can get it online for half the price. A warranty doesnt help me one bit, as long as it works when I recieve it it will stay working in my hands. Anyways I figure if it does fail because of my fault I can still buy another online and prob still have saved money over buying it locally. Any company will say it your fault if you hook it up and something happens to it, so warranties are a gimmick.
> 
> 
> Last time I even let a local shop touch my car 2 things got F'uped. They ran my wires thru a rubber boot instead of drilling my firewall and broke apiece of my dash, why would I ever want to pay for something like that again


...you should thank them. You shouldnt drill through the firewall if there is already a rubber access hole.

I feel you on this though, there is nothing more frustrating than PAYING for someone to break different components of your car because they dont have enough exp. on your particular model.


----------



## SublimeZ (Jan 28, 2008)

I pulled up Arc dealers & saw one on a street which I use often. 
I'm thinking, wow, how did I miss this? (the street is 3 blocks long) Went to check it out & it's a gated apt. complex... Sorry, this just reinforces my my lack of confidence in local shops.
fyi- I'm in the same town as Mooble & agree with his conclusions.


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

BlueSQ said:


> ...you should thank them. You shouldnt drill through the firewall if there is already a rubber access hole.
> 
> I feel you on this though, there is nothing more frustrating than PAYING for someone to break different components of your car because they dont have enough exp. on your particular model.




you dont pop a hole in a rubber boot, I came out to my car and in the passenger foot area there was 2" of water sitting there on the first rain after they did it. Always drill thru the firewall and use a grommet. I took them to small claims court and they had to pay for a dealer to fix everything


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

arrivalanche said:


> The major factors in the industry that have changed is
> 
> A) The economy. People want the same equipment, but arent willing to pay the same price.


 Pay what, a huge markup, then yeah, no we aren't.



arrivalanche said:


> B) Cars are built like toys now where any knucklehead can (or at least think they can) do it themselves. It makes me sick when I have to get in a car and see some disgusting install that you can tell right away whoever did it should never touch a tool ever again.


You even admitted that many shops do the same thing, but it's even worse because they charged money for it.



arrivalanche said:


> C) Yes the internet. You think that its all well and good to buy a JL amp from some online store, but if you knew how they got that equipment you would know that its illegal for some brands to be sold like that not to mention some places remove serial numbers so they cant be tracked for warranty and also some are just referbs sold as new product. Wonder why the price is so low now?


 I've bought numerous items over the internet and have never had a single bad product or failure yet. If it is illegal, it's the sellers ass not mine.



arrivalanche said:


> And how do "I" have a bad business sense when Im just a installer smart ass? Im bringing this up solely for the fact that people that buy on the internet are indeed changing how the car audio industry works. Being that shops sell less equipment forces shops to start charging unrealistic labor prices to try to make up for the loss.


 How about this for a novel idea, rather than the shops marking up labor, why don't they sell the products cheaper, then maybe they'd sell a lot more product? Demanding it from the manufacturers that may be forcing the shops to charge retail. Blame the manufacturers if they won't let it happen, but the consumer for not wanting to pay 50-100% markup.



arrivalanche said:


> Also what is the awesome idea that you have for shops to adapt to the new market?


See above, charge less money for the products. Like I said earlier, if I can buy an amp off ebay for $300, the dealers are paying less than that. Quit charging $500-600 for it. If I could buy an amp off ebay for $300 or locally from a shop for $325-350, I might do it, but not for $500-600. You may benefit from me doing it, but I sure as hell don't get anything for it, but a lot less for my money.



arrivalanche said:


> Ultimately I understand "why" you buy online, I just see it as immoral to buy it from places that are in the end crooked.


 Immoral, are you serious, it's immoral not to pay huge markups just because shops enjoyed the profits for many years because there wasn't really any other way to get gear? Maybe it's immoral to mark up equipment and labor (often times for ****ty work) to the extent that most shops do.


----------



## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

I just bought some second skin products, plan on doing the work myself. Spent a couple hundred bucks, and already had some left from my old install. Call it 250 bucks worth of stuff, assuming I dont buy some more.

This same product would have cost 550 bucks or more if I went to a local shop and bought dynamat.

figure they would charge (i have no idea, im making this up) 30 bucks an hour to install it, and figure 4 hours work, so for a day of my time I can save 400 bucks....

See you at the shop, right

Also,some of the stuff online may be "illegal" but a large majority of it is left over b stock the company has repaired, or was holding for warranty. Doesnt make it illegal, just no warranty


----------



## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

The bottom line is that the seller must satisfy the buyer. Online sales would not exist if the dealers were capable of completely satisfying the customers and, since they are not currently doing so and don't appear to be able to do so in the future, they will have to go the way of the dinosaur, which is just fine with me.

Dealers should be focusing on services rather than goods, for starters.


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

arrivalanche said:


> Also what is the awesome idea that you have for shops to adapt to the new market? The only somewhat thing Ive seen is adding on home audio. Dont get me wrong, I do know that shops MUST adapt, but they shouldnt have to completely give up on what they are just to keep their heads above water.


If the free market dictates that they should, then yes they should.

This ain't socialism, guy. If it were, shady B&M car audio shops would never exist in the first place.


----------



## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

Neil said:


> The bottom line is that the seller must satisfy the buyer. Online sales would not exist if the dealers were capable of completely satisfying the customers and, since they are not currently doing so and don't appear to be able to do so in the future, they will have to go the way of the dinosaur, which is just fine with me.
> 
> *Dealers should be focusing on services rather than goods, for starters*.


Amen. I don't work in this industry, but this is the golden rule for any retail establishment.


----------



## arrivalanche (Jun 27, 2008)

89grand- 

so you know the exact price of every product and what shops get it for?? Your being ridiculous for thinking that shops get it and mark it up %200 and thats all profit. You seem to forget about rent, utilities, etc. Also those online places can profit next to nothing on it for the fact that there is no physical business. Chances are its some guy shipping **** out of his garage. Dealers give incentives to distributers that buy in bulk which most shops cant afford to do anymore, therefor less profit. Hell anymore most shops dont even stock a lot due to the fact that they have less profits. Shops and online are two different things completely that unfortunately fight over the same industry.

Now that people have seemed to turn this into something personal, I remind you, I was asking for opinions. Like I have mentioned I understand "why". You all seem to be aiming this at me like Im the ****ty shop that screwed each of you over at one point or another.


----------



## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

can't we all just get along?


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

arrivalanche said:


> Now that people have seemed to turn this into something personal, I remind you, I was asking for opinions. Like I have mentioned I understand "why". You all seem to be aiming this at me like Im the ****ty shop that screwed each of you over at one point or another.


You started it off personal, because we are EXACTLY who you are preaching/whining to.

I do appreciate hearing your perspective, but you're looking at a couple of things backwards, IMHO.


----------



## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

why don't shops just buy in bulk, sell online *AND* do local business and installs. The if they have online prices that compete, they make money and can also get local business because of great prices and can make money on installs...... I am not positive, but this may be part of the adaptation that Vestax mentioned..... as well as good installers working from home on 1 car at a time. 





arrivalanche said:


> 89grand-
> 
> so you know the exact price of every product and what shops get it for?? Your being ridiculous for thinking that shops get it and mark it up %200 and thats all profit. You seem to forget about rent, utilities, etc. Also those online places can profit next to nothing on it for the fact that there is no physical business. Chances are its some guy shipping **** out of his garage. Dealers give incentives to distributers that buy in bulk which most shops cant afford to do anymore, therefor less profit. Hell anymore most shops dont even stock a lot due to the fact that they have less profits. Shops and online are two different things completely that unfortunately fight over the same industry.
> 
> Now that people have seemed to turn this into something personal, I remind you, I was asking for opinions. Like I have mentioned I understand "why". You all seem to be aiming this at me like Im the ****ty shop that screwed each of you over at one point or another.


----------



## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

arrivalanche said:


> 89grand-
> 
> so you know the exact price of every product and what shops get it for?? Your being ridiculous for thinking that shops get it and mark it up %200 and thats all profit. You seem to forget about rent, utilities, etc. Also those online places can profit next to nothing on it for the fact that there is no physical business. Chances are its some guy shipping **** out of his garage. Dealers give incentives to distributers that buy in bulk which most shops cant afford to do anymore, therefor less profit. Hell anymore most shops dont even stock a lot due to the fact that they have less profits. Shops and online are two different things completely that unfortunately fight over the same industry.
> 
> Now that people have seemed to turn this into something personal, I remind you, I was asking for opinions. Like I have mentioned I understand "why". You all seem to be aiming this at me like Im the ****ty shop that screwed each of you over at one point or another.


Its not a personal attack, no one is speaking about your install skills, or the money you make. 

Yes, most people know that Internet shops are warehouse/garages/drop shipments, and that is how they keep prices so low. Nothing wrong with the way B&M shops are ran, but at the same time: same product at 60% of the price for a DIY person is a no brainer.


----------



## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

arrivalanche said:


> 89grand-
> 
> so you know the exact price of every product and what shops get it for?? Your being ridiculous for thinking that shops get it and mark it up %200 and thats all profit. You seem to forget about rent, utilities, etc. Also those online places can profit next to nothing on it for the fact that there is no physical business. Chances are its some guy shipping **** out of his garage. *Dealers give incentives to distributers that buy in bulk which most shops cant afford to do anymore, therefor less profit. Hell anymore most shops dont even stock a lot due to the fact that they have less profits.* Shops and online are two different things completely that unfortunately fight over the same industry.
> 
> Now that people have seemed to turn this into something personal, I remind you, I was asking for opinions. Like I have mentioned I understand "why". You all seem to be aiming this at me like Im the ****ty shop that screwed each of you over at one point or another.


I work in for a local outdoor retailer. In order to compete with the big guys (Cabela's, Bass Pro, Gander Mountain, etc.) we joined a buying group. It's basically a bunch of similar retailers who all belong to one group. Because we are buying as a group, rather than one little store, we have better buying power and buy things at distributor pricing rather than dealer pricing. 

It sounds to me like the mobile electronics industry should try to adopt a similar approach... Or at the very least, get together with some of your competitors, form a good relationship and buy together for bigger discounts... This is how it all began and where the idea of buying groups came from.


----------



## arrivalanche (Jun 27, 2008)

BEAVER said:


> I work in for a local outdoor retailer. In order to compete with the big guys (Cabela's, Bass Pro, Gander Mountain, etc.) we joined a buying group. It's basically a bunch of similar retailers who all belong to one group. Because we are buying as a group, rather than one little store, we have better buying power and buy things at distributor pricing rather than dealer pricing.
> 
> It sounds to me like the mobile electronics industry should try to adopt a similar approach... Or at the very least, get together with some of your competitors, form a good relationship and buy together for bigger discounts... This is how it all began and where the idea of buying groups came from.


This is what a few shops actually do, but the thing is, is that it goes against contracts that the original dealer signs. These distributers have contracts with buy ins at lets say $20k to be a authorized dealer that can give you the advantage of being the only one allowed to sell that product in that area. Now lets say your friend owns a shop a few miles away where that rep could sell through them to. If he is selling your product then the rep lost a $20k sale. They dont like that. At this point they might even drop you as a dealer if they find out.


----------



## arrivalanche (Jun 27, 2008)

fredridge said:


> why don't shops just buy in bulk, sell online *AND* do local business and installs. The if they have online prices that compete, they make money and can also get local business because of great prices and can make money on installs...... I am not positive, but this may be part of the adaptation that Vestax mentioned..... as well as good installers working from home on 1 car at a time.


This is where shops get the shaft to. Places like best buy sell products that you can find at a mom and pops place but way cheaper. Now where mom and pops could be selling product for cost, BB will still profit. Bigger places have more buying power to get things for way cheaper. In the end there is nothing anyone can do. My main interest was just to inform. Unfortunately I am slightly bias, but I must tell you I never pay full pop for car audio myself so like I said I do understand.


----------



## crazyder (Mar 3, 2007)

When I went to a local shop to build a center console they said it would be $1000, I just walked out laughing.

Part of the problem is you have major brands being sold on the internet for cheaper, but you now also have internet brands (FI, Sundown, MACH5, Stereo Integrity,etc.) that are often the case better (price/performance).


----------



## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

BeatsDownLow said:


> you dont pop a hole in a rubber boot, I came out to my car and in the passenger foot area there was 2" of water sitting there on the first rain after they did it. Always drill thru the firewall and use a grommet. I took them to small claims court and they had to pay for a dealer to fix everything



I must have misunderstood, I thought u were saying there was an access hole in the firewall and they ran the wire through it instead of drilling a new unnecessary hole that would serve the same purpose. Glad u were able to collect, I hate getting the shaft on this kind of stuff.


----------



## 6APPEAL (Apr 5, 2007)

arrivalanche said:


> Unfortunately I am slightly bias


Slightly bias? 

I've worked retail at both levels, little shop, big national chain. There is no comparison. Joe's Speed Shop cannot compete with Jeg's or Summit. Joe buys 150 Holley carbs a year. Jeg's or Summit buys 150,000 a month, so they get a huge price break. Simple economics.

The biggest issue I see the the "middle man" that the shops must deal with. The "distributor" is driving the price. Kill the middle man and buy factory direct! I've actually had a "distributor" offer to sell to me direct (cash only!) for the same price as the shop pays. Who's making the money????????
John


----------



## ENDER_XVICM (Oct 8, 2007)

The only local shop in my area is tweeter. And I will give it to them they do a nice job and the people in there do know their stuff. But all they know is what they are told to know. I ask them about an Install for my car. and I need a 3-way system installed. Rainbow SLC 365s. The first guy was what is Rainbow. I told them it was the speakers that I have. He told me I didnt want them I want these JL 2-ways that will cost me 700 bucks. Or I could get these Focal 3 ways that would cost me about 2 grand. And I would need this JL amp another 500 before they charge me out the ass to install it. And about the installing price. they wanted another 1500 to install it. I will NEVER pay that much to have an install done. Mostly because I know how much the materials cost to do it. That is profit out the ass. But the biggest thing that bugged me was the people telling me what I want. Any car audio shop ive been into has had arrogant moronic sales people. 

I remember one guy telling me that their earthquake 5x7s will have better SQ than the SLCs I was trying to get installed for a decent price. He also told me that if I was going to run that junk (the Rainbows) that I should at least get rid of my current amp (JBL CS60.4) and get something quality (Pyle POS)

Another thing, I finally find a guy that will install the speakers for me in the doors and the tweeters on the a-pillar. I ask him how they do their installs. Will they properly make plates and use MDF, will you deaden my doors for me. He just says yeah we will do it right. I take my car in the next day and leave it with them. I get it back and the tweeters for one are mounted on the dash, Im not to angry about that, they didnt look bad. But the doors were horrible. They were not deadened with the Second skin I had and they did not use MDF baffles to mount the speakers. What they did was hack up my door pannels and use something he called a zipper strip to hold the speaker in place. Needeless to say it lacked midbass. He wanted $250 for it which I refused to pay until he threatened to sue. Now with that said I do need to point out that he does at least sell decent product for decent prices. Not as good as I can get online but cheaper than tweeter and other stores. He carries Arc, and arc has him listed as an authorized retalier, he also carries Boston memphis pioneer and kenwood. He looks at prices online and does his best to compete with them and still heep the manufacturers happy and keep his buyers happy. 

Lastly. I dont buy in shops like tweeter and such because I will not buy JL or Focal or any of those companies that charge way to much for what they sell. Screw them, I will get something cheaper that will quite possibly sound better anyway. They make good product, but they dont make $1000 product. Along with that I enjoy doing the work myself. It is more rewarding in the end.


----------



## tophatjimmy (Dec 16, 2005)

I work at a local home & car B & M with a Best Buy literally a block away and a Costco less than a mile away. it sucks having to compete with the buying power of a big box store.
But you'd be surprised how much Best Buy merchandise we install 

It's impossible for a small or even a large B & M to compete with online unauthorized prices - period. From my own web browsing (ebay, sonicelectronics, woofersetc) most online prices are about 10-15% over dealer cost - IF the dealer is factory direct. If the dealer is having to get their product from a distributor then make it 5% over cost or less. Hell sonicelectroncis sells Pioneer stuff at less than our cost.

So its all good and great for a customer to ask if their local B & M will match internet pricing, but it's not gonna happen. Sorry, but a 10% profit margin on product doesn't keep the lights on, let alone pay the lease and payroll.

The key word here is OVERHEAD. Online retailers in the grey market have little to no overhead to pay, thus acceptable profit margins while still selling product for CHEAP.

But then again, even though I am an employee of a stereo shop, I almost always buy online or off of forums - because even for me it's usually cheaper. how sad is that??


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Charging out the ass so that you never sell anything doesn't seem like a very good way to cover overhead, IMO.


----------



## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

ok, so here's the best things about buying online

1. just about everything you could imagine is available
2. lots of "good" and true info if you look for it
3. good prices on new stuff and GREAT prices on used stuff
4. get to try lots of different stuff and sell it without mortgaging the house.
5. get connected with a great community of people.
6. Let other people experiment and learn from them.
7. Info is generally free

anyone else, stuff I missed?


----------



## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

Car audio shops, Just like Phone companies have a choice. They can either adapt, and change with the times or they can fade away.

I can buy equipment online for half of what I can buy them for at my local stereo shop. If they could settle for a 30-40% markup I would patronize them. It is very simple they could have my business if they were willing to give me a better price. I am not asking for them to lose money just give me a fair price. Instead they get nothing from me.

I have worked in the marine electronics industry for 7 yrs. The same problem exists there as in car audio. Most small marine electronics companies have adapted. They make sure to offer good service, and Compete as much as possible with the big box stores.

If car stereo shops would learn from this example they would be much better off


----------



## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

el_chupo_ said:


> Nothing wrong with the way B&M shops are ran, but at the same time: same product at 60% of the price *for a DIY person *is a no brainer.


YES, exactly. And this is why we have strong opinions about it, cause we're DIYers. 

This is very simple. It costs less to buy online. Supply and demand. A company's overhead costs are none of my concern, I have my OWN overhead costs.


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

To take it a little further here (according to OP's own posts)... the finger should be pointed at the MANUFACTURERS, not the ****ing end user who pays everyone's paycheck. Whether it's how they approach authorized dealers, how they set MSRP, WHATEVER IT IS, it is THEIR fault.

Frankly, when I hear companies (e.g. Zapco, Arc) saying that their #1 priority is the dealers, I'm inclined to take my business elsewhere (to the Internet). Whoever is footing the damn bill should be #1. If I'm paying out the ass, I ESPECIALLY demand to be #1.

And it is RIDIIIIIIIICULOUS to expect me to spend a huge extra chunk out of MY hard-earned paycheck, in return for..... what, warm fuzzies and an "Authorized" sticker?

jp88 has it exactly right. If they marked the **** up reasonably, I would support them. They don't.


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

I payed my dues to the dealer many years ago, when I spent tons of money there buying my PPI amps, JL Audio subs, MB Quart components and Audio Control processors. That was the only place you could get it, at car audio specialty shops, I had no choice.

Several things have changed since then. One, the internet has opened a whole new world for audio gear. Not only are there internet brands that were never around back then when I was buying expensive gear, most importantly I learned that certain brand names are not needed to get good sound in the car. My last system had two JBL amps, a GTO 75.4 and a GTO 600.1 and I paid a little less than $300 for both of them brand new off ebay, compared to about $1000 dollars for my PPI A600.2 and A200, around 10 years ago, and their performance is right there with the PPI's.

But, even if I want a certain brand of car audio equipment, I don't HAVE to get it at the over priced retailer anymore.

w00t!


----------



## dejo (Jan 3, 2006)

I have several shops that treat me very well and do patronize them when I can. I also refuse to buy anything at retail that isnt in stock, no reason at all to charge me full price to order something with my money. I do want to see the good shops stay around just dont need to make a killing off of every customer that comes through. a fair markup is a I ask for.


----------



## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

arrivalanche said:


> Now working in the car audio industry for the past 10+ years I can definitely see what ebay and other online stores have done to the industry. I just wanted to get an impression if you DIYers know the consequences of bypassing your local shops. I have personally seen almost half of the stable shops go under the last few years and talking to reps and other shops you hear the same thing, "sales just aren't there." I know the economy is bad anymore but I just see it wrong how people dont support their local shop of choice. Dont you realize that you get a lot more than a higher price for your equipment? You get a warranty that you cant get if you buy it online through unauthorized dealers, not to mention the convenience of having it in stock that day. I just feel that if everyone continues to cut out the middle man they wont be there when you need them, and that it will ultimately effect the brands themselves. I know everyone is looking for the best price, but ultimately it comes at a price to many people. Feel free to give me your opinion.



Taking into consideration the fact that DIY'ers make up an incredibly small percentage of the entire car audio marketplace, this forum is an interesting place to pose your question. 

All businesses need to prepared to respond to the ever-changing marketplace or risk losing customers. Car audio shops are no exception. As a consumer I have no obligation to spend enough money at each local business to make sure their rent is paid and the doors stay open. 

Why don't I purchase equipment at a local shop? For many of the reasons already mentioned. I have zero interest in any of the services provided by the local shop (hence the term DIY), I've never made a warranty claim, I don't feel like waiting two weeks while the shop "special orders" an item which they should in stock, and many employees of local shops have no interest in learning anything about car audio other than the products they stock and even that is a stretch. 

People on here live and breathe car audio and could walk circles around most salespeople discussing specs and application. That is not to say that there are not very talented installers and fabricators at local shops but the day I have someone else install for me is the day I find a new hobby. That is the fun part of the hobby. 




arrivalanche said:


> Ultimately I understand "why" you buy online, I just see it as immoral to buy it from places that are in the end crooked.


Buying on line is "immoral"? Seriously, it's car audio not adultery.


----------



## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

At the end of the day, the customer is voting with their wallets. They buy $4 a cup coffee at starbuck all day long, so not everyone is after the best price on everything they buy. They want to get value for the dollar, and no matter what industry you are in, if you can't convince the customer you are giving them a good value, you as a business person are getting exactly what you deserve. It doesn't matter what industry you are in or competing against.

Now, what about this:

1. Quality of OEM systems is improving. 10 years ago, you might not have had a CD player, or MP3 or Satellite, or Navigation. Now quite a few of these are available as optional equipment if not standard.

2. Number of alternatives. You can get a laptop, ipod, or Iphone and have that instead. Lots of people are doing that.

3. Price of gas. The key demographic who buy car audio don't make much money. So a tripling in gas prices did not help.

4. The difficulty in replacing the OEM system. 

5. Difficulty in integrating into the OEM systems (for those that can't replace).

6. Inflation.

7. Overcapacity in the industry. Too many manufacturers (with new ones popping up it seems every month), going after too few dealers who are going after too few customers. Recipe for disaster (take a look at the automotive industry). 

8. Too many dealers who clerk instead of selling (so they have to resort to price to move products, slitting their own throats in the process). 

9. Too many customers who aren't aware that they can modify their cars. So even worse than customers who buy on the internet, is customers who don't even know car audio is available to upgrade their cars. 

10. Customers who aren't spending money on anything at all. Car audio is a luxury, so internet sales or not aren't going to change people keeping their eyes on their cash more than a few years ago. 

11. Changing weather (warmer/shorter seasons). You can't get a remote start starter installed over the internet. Lots of shops depended on the remote start season to make it between the fall and spring season. Warmer and/or shorter seasons mean less reason to get a remote start. Another shortfal. 

12. Prices of raw materials going up. At some point, you have to raise prices to keep up with the increase in price.

13. Lower average ticket. A regular sized laptop has been at or near $400 for the entry level cheap one with barely enough memory to support the OS for a few years now. A entry level car mp3 player has gone down in price like 40% in the last few years. So even if a shop that 10% more customers might be making much less cash because they are selling less dollars per transactions.

I could probably go on but it isn't just the internet.

Juan


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

whoa, i guess i should chime in here, i feel that i have a pretty good and honest perspective from both ends of the spectrum.

First of all, i think having this debate on a forum like diyma is kinda pointless. By definition the members here prefer to do the installs themselves, and are by no means the mainstream customers that most B&M shops cater to. Nonethless, i will express my opinion on this matter...i hope not to offend anyone, but prolly will hehe...

in no particular order:

1. The Industry as a whole. in particular the BM shops and in turn the manufacturers are MOST DEFINETLY going through a major downturn. Anyone who questions this issue is almost certainly does not work in the industry full time. Shops are closing down left and right, good and bad shops, manufactuers are scaling back, hell we may loose a few pretty decent names in the coming years. IF you work in the industry have is decently connected to it, then this fact is blatantly obvious, and has been over the past few months to a year. IS this a temporary downturn? or a permenant decline? no one knows for sure, but it is definetly DOWN.

2. As far as calling Diyma members cheap, well, i will have to say that i agree. however, i do NOT think of it as a negative thing, i sorta just think if it as obvious common sense. in any hobby, those who are more dedicated to the craft will be the ones who knows the best deals and seek to grab them, and they are also tend to be the ones who try to do it on their own or try to find someone to do it for as cheap as possible. there are exceptions to the rule of course, but IMO the general reality is such. So i dont see what the big deal is.

3. THis is part thats prolly going to offend some people on here. I have been around the scene for many many years, both from the diyer side and with the industry side, i have known, seen, and heard so many installs from all aspects of the industry that i cant even begin to count. 
When it comes to installation, there are three levels of diyers interms of installation:

1. those unique individuals who is both well versed in SQ speak, and can do work that is on par with most decent BM shops.

2. those who is well versed in SQ, and can do a decent sounding install, but in all honesty, doenst look very good

3. those who is well versed in SQ, but really install very well at all.

but the trick is, its very hard to know whos is what version. as human beings, we are all driven, to some degree, by our egos, and often, its is agianst our egos to post our own mistakes. at the same time when ew do somehting well, we do like to show it off. pictures hide flaws, and bad sounding system, stuff burning up, we dont like to talk about. 
Many on here like to criticize BM shops for horrible work, but i think much fewer will acutally admit that they themselves have turned out, or still frequently turn out shoddy work on their own, or freinds cars, either from a csometic and or sq standpoint. So i would suggest taking a step back and think about it bit, before putting on the SQ DIYER cap as a token of superiority over a BM shop.

The truth is, there is still a number of people on this forum, when it comes down to it, still SHOULD have teheir install performed by a good pro installer, if they were to truly have a system worthy of their gear and their SQ knowleldge. YOu may not agree, and say "well...that aint me!"...but i have seen enough systems to believe other wise. So give the pro side some slack hehe

4. back to the topic of online sales killing the industry. I think the OP was spot on. i believe the online sales, the unauthorized kind, is the single biggest threat to the industry as a whole. But agin, i think the fingers should be pointed to those online retailers themselves and those that supply them, more than the guys on here.

5. just HOW online sales kill the industry, at least in my opinion, is that it forms a very bad cycle.
-all people have a need to save money, so this need drives the online market
-the online/ebay retailers seizes this opportunity, and starts intially with B stock and overstock gear from various reps, distributors, and dealers.
-this grows to the point that now online sales is really becoming a full force and wreaking havoc with BM dealers sales.
-many of these dealers, in order to compete or survive wtih line prices, themselves start to backdoor products to online retailers, thus driving the cycle.
-but eventually this amounts to shooting themselves in the foot, as online retailers are constantly trying to find the cheapest supply, and in the recent years, have mixed their source with overseas clones, B stocks, and then these dealers have now lost the ability to sell to ebay. many of these dealers can pay the terms on their inventory, and go under. at the samet ime, any shops who did NOT participate in these shady backdoor dealres, go under, due to lack of sales.
-with the lack of dealers, the manufacturers themselves suffer, as their main source of income is still selling through their dealer network, add to the fact that many of the online stuff is sourced from overeass or are copies, they dont see a dime of that profit. also, when dealers go under, many of them have stuff on terms that htey cant pay, and as a result, the manufactuers cant recoup these costs. in recent times, manufactuers, big and small, have been caught up in this wave, and have suffered dire financial issues.


6. the second biggest threat IMO, to the industry as a whole, is BM hack shops. when people have their car hacked up, themselves ripped off, or just any wide array of bad experieences happen to them...they generally get a very bad opinoin of BM shops in general. And in today's age of the internet, this bad reputation spreads like a virus, and soon, virtually all BM shops are affected by this negative view. this in turn drives the need to do it yourself, and to buy stuff online. i would honestly estimate, in the areas i have lived, that a full 50 percent of the shops are ones htat owuld leave a sour taste in peoples mouth. a further maybe 30-40 percent are shops are turn out decent work on regular occassions, but also turn out veryt shoddy work, either becaues of the particulra installer they have hired, or other reasons. as a result, its very very hard to find a shop that can be trusted, and many people just stop going to ANY shops.


my solutions to this whole thing?

well, to be honest, i dont know if there is such a solution without some fundamental changes...whcih i dont believe will take place.

A. if a law passes that makes unauthorized sales of a product truely illegal, meaning manufactuers can go over these online or ebay dealers. Becuase right now, we cannot, infact, any manufacturer who sues such an ebay or online place, will most likely themselves get sued and will loose.

B. A true list of "reputable" shops avaiable for all to see. this is very tough, every year, there are lists of top list of retailers and installers, but to be honest, within that list are hackshops and hackers just the same. Somenow, a list needs to be generated, that are voted on by people from all sides of the industry, the manufacturer, reps, other retailer/installers, diyers, general customers. and with in this list, there has to be accountability, sorta like the ebay feeback system. if a shop who is on the good list, is discovered to be turning out bad work, stealing stuff, or backdooring stuff to ebay, they get negative marks...

the reason why i say htis wont happen is just becuase the amount of organization involved...

so anyway, thats my thoughts, its not meant to be solution, obviously, but just whats on my mind 

may have more thoughts later hehe


----------



## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

Bing,
I'm going to call BS on the claim that any good part of the stuff being sold is fake or B-stock. Look at the feedback for the guys selling online and/or on ebay. The "it's fake, used or stolen" line has been the boogeyman that people have been using for years as a scare tactic on consumers. Why is there so much more "fake/stoeln/used" stuff 2 weeks after the end of the quarter? Continuing to use that is just an excuse that delays people from fixing what I think is really wrong, lack of discipline on the manufacturers, distributors and retailers end. Guys who look after their customers at every level with the long term in mind seem to being weathering the storm better than those who were busy today (the end of the quarter) giving the farm away just so they could hit their number.

The manufacturers looking the other way with a don't ask/don't tell policy is what is driving the supply. They encourage people to buy more than they need because they make more than they need. People don't have to go to chinese suppliers to make knockoffs when the manufacturer will sell it to you.

Juan


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

hey Juan,

yeah i think i will take that back, i think it varies from brand to brand. I think wtih the more up scale brands, it happens a bit more. I myself have feasted my eyes on fake stuff brought in from ebay.

and when i was china on business and pleasure, i have scoped out and have gotten plenty of business propositions about selling such gear in the US. stuff that are blatant copies.

i of course didnt take them, but you have to think, these gears go somewhere dont they?


----------



## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Hopefully you didnt take my comments personally as they were not aimed that way.

I think the general concensus here though seems to be that consumers just arent willing to pay the extra 40% to buy these products from B&M dealers.

As far as suggestions, here are a few (and yes some are repeated), maybe we can make a list...

1. *Pressure the manufacturers to eliminate their bogus enforced price points*. Theres no reason why THEY should control the price that YOU sell the gear at. From a purely business point of view, once they sell it to you, you should be able to sell it for whatever the hell you want to. They threaten pulling you as a dealer if you do so, which again is absolute hogwash. If enough dealers say F U, I wont sell it then, I would think the manufacturer would have to cave. This allows you to compete with the online only guys.

2. Sell online to increase your audience, and volume of sales.

3. Make your money as a B&M on services as listed above. Install, parts and service and warranties. 





arrivalanche said:


> 89grand-
> 
> so you know the exact price of every product and what shops get it for?? Your being ridiculous for thinking that shops get it and mark it up %200 and thats all profit. You seem to forget about rent, utilities, etc. Also those online places can profit next to nothing on it for the fact that there is no physical business. Chances are its some guy shipping **** out of his garage. Dealers give incentives to distributers that buy in bulk which most shops cant afford to do anymore, therefor less profit. Hell anymore most shops dont even stock a lot due to the fact that they have less profits. Shops and online are two different things completely that unfortunately fight over the same industry.
> 
> Now that people have seemed to turn this into something personal, I remind you, I was asking for opinions. Like I have mentioned I understand "why". You all seem to be aiming this at me like Im the ****ty shop that screwed each of you over at one point or another.


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

captainobvious said:


> Hopefully you didnt take my comments personally as they were not aimed that way.
> 
> I think the general concensus here though seems to be that consumers just arent willing to pay the extra 40% to buy these products from B&M dealers.
> 
> ...


1. well, point one is good, but i assume you arent a dealer? if you are saying it should be a free for all, waht do you thik is going to happen"? there will be guy cutting each other throats to sell lower, eventually, it gets to the point that it becomes completely not worth it to sell the product. If i sell for 30 points, fomeone will sell for 25, then someone will sell for 20, so on and so forth, you are describing exactly what is happening to the industry with online/ebay, beucase there is NO enforcement of pricing, so people are selling stuff at virtually waht we as dealers pay and sometimes even below our cost. saying that manufactuers should allow every dealer to sell whatever they want to sell it at is ludicrous. 

2. same point as above, the problem with the internet is that manufactuers cant control it, and its just going to degenerate into a cutthroat mess where everyone tries to sel loewr than everyone else...that may be good for the short term for certain consumers, but wahts good is taht when in the long run, if brand names in general start to disappear?

3. selling a part and making a profit of the part is part of virtually every service industry. Why shoudl car audio stores be singled out to do this? When you go get your car serviced, should all the mechanics be expected to always use gear you supply them? when you go have your house built, are allt he contractors expected to only make money off labor? and you provide all the parts? its just a normal facet of the industry that dealers should be making money on gear as well as labor. you can get your own gear, but be prepared to pay a raised labor. 


i mean seriously, i know its easy to think about yourself and say its common sense that you are driven by the dollar and what not, but take a step back and think about the other side, dealres are people too, and they too, are driven by a common sense to make profit and survive.


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

That "degenerate cutthroat mess" is called capitalism, which happens to provide you the freedom to run your own business doing what you love.


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

In all honesty, it doesn't mater what retailers _think_ should be happening, and what profit margin they _think_ they should make. It ain't like that anymore and that's really all there is to it.

If retailers don't think they should or can compete with online sales, they're out of business sorry to say, but it's true.

This is exactly how the Japanese took over the electronics market back in the 70's. They undercut the American maker so bad no one would buy their products any more. Was it wrong, sure it was, but that's how how it happened then, and that's how it is now.


----------



## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

simplicityinsound said:


> 1. well, point one is good, but i assume you arent a dealer? if you are saying it should be a free for all, waht do you thik is going to happen"? there will be guy cutting each other throats to sell lower, eventually, it gets to the point that it becomes completely not worth it to sell the product. If i sell for 30 points, fomeone will sell for 25, then someone will sell for 20, so on and so forth, you are describing exactly what is happening to the industry with online/ebay, beucase there is NO enforcement of pricing, so people are selling stuff at virtually waht we as dealers pay and sometimes even below our cost. saying that manufactuers should allow every dealer to sell whatever they want to sell it at is ludicrous.
> 
> 2. same point as above, the problem with the internet is that manufactuers cant control it, and its just going to degenerate into a cutthroat mess where everyone tries to sel loewr than everyone else...that may be good for the short term for certain consumers, but wahts good is taht when in the long run, if brand names in general start to disappear?
> 
> ...



1. I see your point, but guys arent selling them for BELOW their cost from the dealer now, internet sales or otherwise. Everyone needs to make a profit, so if the dealers are allowed to sell for whatever they want, it will always be above THEIR cost, and allows them to at least compete with the guys selling on the internet with low to zero overhead.. Why is it ludicrous that manufacturers should NOT have a say in what YOU charge your customers for their gear? You've already payed THEIR asking price for it. 

2. Once again, how are people selling for less online if all product comes from the manufacturer? It has to be dealers who get in product for dealer cost, then sell illegally for lower cost (remove serial #'s or whatever they do). And of course repaired/B-stock items which come from where ?
Unless theres some other way Im just not thinking about...? 
The brand names remain because the manufacturers are still selling their product. Alls well and good that they have their sales model for dealers and discount pricing and such, but it appears to be doing more harm than good.
It seems that some dealers are bending the rules in order to make sales, which in turn ends up hurting the honest guys... Being in the industry, do you think this is part of the problem?

3. Yes, dealers should be able to make a profit off of their sales. But they have to be realistic and know that they simply are NOT going to make a 40% markup on gear with internet sales competing. However, if they markup 10%they likely still get the business because its not a significant increase to the buyer, and they have an opportunity to make money on installation and accesories. They also take some of that business away from the online guys because of this.

"x" sales at 10% markup is better than ZERO sales at 40% markup. Plus the install opportunities which is where the real money is made.


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

acutally,capitalism is far more complicated than just your "degenerate cutthroat mess"...thats maybe thast just my history degree talkin  but if you think capitalism means its a free for all you are definetly mistsaken. there are a ton of rules and boundaries that defines our version of "capitalism"

oh well, no point debating it anymore, but those of you who work for a living, perhaps you can think about your particular field if anything similar happens and how you think about it?


----------



## Pitbully (Jun 17, 2008)

simplicityinsound said:


> 3. When you go get your car serviced, should all the mechanics be expected to always use gear you supply them?
> 
> when you go have your house built, are allt he contractors expected to only make money off labor? and you provide all the parts? its just a normal facet of the industry that dealers should be making money on gear as well as labor. you can get your own gear, but be prepared to pay a raised labor.


Yes and Yes. If I bring a part and I know what is wrong, guess what, I expect them to put it on. If I ordered the wrong part I am to blame. If I can get materials to build a house why should a builder make profit off pieces? They arent in the market of sales, they should be in the market of <mechanic> <carpenter><electrician> More times then not they can save you money and make a profit, but I dont know of any contractors that have not done what I have stated.

I did a 1000 sq ft addition. I have had oil changed and brought my own oil/filter. I have had parts bought from a performance shop installed by a mechanic.

Sorry that argument holds no water...


----------



## jimboman (Jun 24, 2008)

I'll give my 2 cents here.
I do support the local B&M store here. There are plenty of shady shops around here that I would never buy from.

One in particular has always take care of me, and you can go in there and BS with the guys anytime. (Yes I do admit that I have spent thousands of dollars there in the past 12 years or so) They do fantastic work to, and their installers have recieved awards for the top installers nation wide.

The reason I support the good ones is that you can actually go in and see the product, you can play with it, they can call support for you, answer questions. You can listen and compare speakers, play with head units, etc. They will usually spot you some wiring and connectors as well.

I recently bought a 7200mkII, installed it, and it was defective. No sound at all, unless you turned it sideways ad gave it smack, then it would produce sound. I took it back the next day and they swapped it out right there on the spot. 

I have bought from several shops around here, and have also bought a few things from online car stereo, all with great results.

But what irritates the crap out of me, is when an arse hole goes into a shop, checks out an item, listens to some speakers, and then goes online and buys it. 

Shops charge a bit more because of the overhead, displays, bills, etc, like what was mentioned in some previous posts.

Yes I do all the installations myself, except building boxes. I have them build them for me. I have built them in the past, but they end up causing a big mess, time, and I only have a hand held circular saw. All my boxes have been truck boxes, so they are a bit more difficult than a rectangle box.

There are some shady shops around here that do need to be avoided such as the ones where a salesguy greets you with "Hello my friend!", or when you ask the price of an item and they ask "How much you give me?"


----------



## Jeremy Mullins (Nov 2, 2007)

And...
If you supply a part to the shop performing the install, and later that part goes bad. The manufacturer is going to point the finger at the installer and operator... the installer is going to point the finger at the manufacturer and the operator... and usually the operator only cares about getting it fixed and playing again.

So if the shop is the supplier and installer, to the owner/operator it doesn't matter whose fault it is... fix it. It does cost more but when the smelly pile hits the fan, it is easy to know where to go and get it fixed.


----------



## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Jeremy Mullins said:


> And...
> If you supply a part to the shop performing the install, and later that part goes bad. The manufacturer is going to point the finger at the installer and operator... the installer is going to point the finger at the manufacturer and the operator... and usually the operator only cares about getting it fixed and playing again.
> 
> So if the shop is the supplier and installer, to the owner/operator it doesn't matter whose fault it is... fix it. It does cost more but when the smelly pile hits the fan, it is easy to know where to go and get it fixed.


Anyone else just get confused ? 

LOL, it must be past my bedtime.


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Well, however anyone chooses to analyze it, I'm not buying from retailers until the price makes sense for me to, and generally it doesn't as we speak.


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Pitbully said:


> Yes and Yes. If I bring a part and I know what is wrong, guess what, I expect them to put it on. If I ordered the wrong part I am to blame. If I can get materials to build a house why should a builder make profit off pieces? They arent in the market of sales, they should be in the market of <mechanic> <carpenter><electrician> More times then not they can save you money and make a profit, but I dont know of any contractors that have not done what I have stated.
> 
> I did a 1000 sq ft addition. I have had oil changed and brought my own oil/filter. I have had parts bought from a performance shop installed by a mechanic.
> 
> Sorry that argument holds no water...


i see the "let me tell you my personal experience and apply it as a general rule to everyone" argument is still alive and well 

you are a classic DIYer, not only on audio but on virtually everything, but if you think the general public and and the entire industry is just like you, i thin kyou are a bit mistaken. 

you have to realize when you are the rule, and when you are the exception to the rule 

p.s. please dont now list your friend billy and your unble jim and your mom and your neighbor all does the same thing just to prove the point...my whole point is that in general, the service industry makes money off parts, its just a matter of fact. if you think a majority of people in the world change our own oil or do their own housing additions and uses their own parts when they go to a mechanic...i would really like to know where you reside...i mean canada cant be THAT different than the US can it? hehe


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

simplicityinsound said:


> acutally,capitalism is far more complicated than just your "degenerate cutthroat mess"...thats maybe thast just my history degree talkin  but if you think capitalism means its a free for all you are definetly mistsaken.


I never said that.



> there are a ton of rules and boundaries that defines our version of "capitalism"


Such as manufacturer price fixing being cool?



> oh well, no point debating it anymore, but those of you who work for a living, perhaps you can think about your particular field if anything similar happens and how you think about it?


I work in software, so outsourcing pops to mind. I recognize it's part of the game, and I step my game up so that it can't be outsourced. This means doing things that the other guys can't.

My comment on capitalism relates to these small businesses acting as if they have a right to a profit. They have a right to exist exactly because of the fact that they don't.


----------



## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

Bing,
Manufacturers can control where product goes. They just don't want to deal with it because they don't want to say goodbye to the volume that goes with selling products out the back door. Quite a few of them have been selling out tomorrow for the quick buck today and the chickens have finally come home to roost.

Also, how do you think the guys on ebay can sell for so low? Because a vendor made a deal to hit their quota.

Here is where it gets better. If Vendor X and Vendor Y decide they are going to sell to every truck stop, gas station, and whorehouse, guess who pays the price? That's right. All of a sudden, the expectation is that even Vendor Z who does a good job policing ebay all of a sudden has to compete against the "street price" that Vendor X and Y have created in the market.

If the vendors didn't sell out the back door, there wouldn't be crazy stuff on ebay..... they created that problem. The customer didn't. 
Juan


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

And it's NOT the ****ing Internet!!! Never mind everyone here who has probably worked in the industry--anyone who has ever had a "hookup" or a friend or a great uncle with a "hookup" knows how RIDICULOUS dealer markup is. And always has been, long before the Internet. Now they're pissed that they can't bend us over anymore. When their customer base is scrapping to pay their OWN bills.

I am very very sorry and sad if we are losing good businesses (either manufacturers or vendors/installers) because of it all, whatever it is. One thing we all agree on is the unfortunate proliferation of hack shops. They sure haven't helped. And regardless, everyone needs to adapt.

Obviously I have no idea how successful your business is, Mr. simplicity, but it seems like you have already adopted more of the business model of the future. Do you not like it when people bring their own gear for you to install? Or is that such a small % of customers that it doesn't really matter?


----------



## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

capnxtreme said:


> And it's NOT the ****ing Internet!!! Never mind everyone here who has probably worked in the industry--anyone who has ever had a "hookup" or a friend or a great uncle with a "hookup" knows how RIDICULOUS dealer markup is. And always has been, long before the Internet. Now they're pissed that they can't bend us over anymore. When their customer base is scrapping to pay their OWN bills.


Since you are an expert in markup, how much markup do you think there is in other products you are buying? Do you think car audio is the only product that has any kind of markup? How do you think that order of fries at McDonalds cost you? Coffee at Starbucks?

Juan


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

juan, what you are saying is definetly true, as i mentioned in my first post, dealers that backdoor products is all part of the vicious cycle that drives this whole condition. and i have been contacted once a twice from these places that sell products on ebay, so i have a pretty good idea on how they get their stuff for below what we pay for. But still hold to the fact that overseas copies is becoming a more and more significant issue over the past few years. i have personally seen it, both here and in Asia


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

capnxtreme said:


> And it's NOT the ****ing Internet!!! Never mind everyone here who has probably worked in the industry--anyone who has ever had a "hookup" or a friend or a great uncle with a "hookup" knows how RIDICULOUS dealer markup is. And always has been, long before the Internet. Now they're pissed that they can't bend us over anymore. When their customer base is scrapping to pay their OWN bills.
> 
> I am very very sorry and sad if we are losing good businesses (either manufacturers or vendors/installers) because of it all, whatever it is. One thing we all agree on is the unfortunate proliferation of hack shops. They sure haven't helped. And regardless, everyone needs to adapt.
> 
> Obviously I have no idea how successful your business is, Mr. simplicity, but it seems like you have already adopted more of the business model of the future. Do you not like it when people bring their own gear for you to install? Or is that such a small % of customers that it doesn't really matter?



umm...are you peter_euro? whats up with the totally random hostility against me? lol is it all from my one comment about how i dont think thats what capitalism is? jk

I am uh, in many ways, the exact opposite of waht a typical BM stores is (at least in respect to the things that people usually complain about with BM stores). my comments from the very beginning was not meant as taking one side or the oter, but rather to try and present a point of view from BOTH sides  I understand where a lot of te diyers are coming from, but at the same time, i can understand where the BM stores frutrations come from. and all i was trying to do is try to get people on this forum to see it a little bit more fro the point of view of the industry guys. i just dont unde5rstand why it has to be such a us and them attitude.

as for me, i do prefer to supply gear, of course, whcih normal store would prefer not to? my goal is try to win over people with my work and service, and i only think that for hte amount of respect i show them throughout my business relationship with them, they can only show me the same respect by going through me for gear. I apply these values myself, beucase to me, its much more than just dollars and profit and what not...i believe in karma, when i find a good and trustworthy mechanic for example, i stay with him and never try to low ball him or bring him my own parts, i feel its important to have ethat mutual respect when its deserved. I am prolly in the vast minority here, but tahts how i feel 

i am pretty sure that if the day comes where no one gets their gears from me and i cannot raise labor rate to compensate, i will be leaving this business for good. And that says a lot IMO as i have zero overhead to deal with, i would think that mots normal BM shops would fold long before that. its simply not sustainable to just charge labor with todays rates. besides, i am sure if for some reason all te stores stopped marking up prices on gear, the next thing people would complain and try to drive down is hte labor rate


----------



## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

I have personal experience, being a buyer that for some brands were probably in their top ten as far as size of the account. 

With that said, I had a pretty good idea what a good deal looked like (and was there long enough to have seen what the "regular" volume dealers were getting because I was there when they were that at the beginning). 

And some of the prices that are out there were so low, I know it wasn't a small dealer selling out the back door, but someone bigger and/or much closer to the source.

I also was told that in So. Cal, the transhippers would pool there money and had their own buying group to get the best deal out there. 6 figure buys, HUGE buys, not your regular volume stuff here.

Juan


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

OldOneEye said:


> Since you are an expert in markup, how much markup do you think there is in other products you are buying? Do you think car audio is the only product that has any kind of markup? How do you think that order of fries at McDonalds cost you? Coffee at Starbucks?
> 
> Juan


$1? $2? I'm not deluded. The fact that it's a different scale means that there are different economies of scale at play.


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

OldOneEye said:


> I have personal experience, being a buyer that for some brands were probably in their top ten as far as size of the account.
> 
> With that said, I had a pretty good idea what a good deal looked like (and was there long enough to have seen what the "regular" volume dealers were getting because I was there when they were that at the beginning).
> 
> ...



oh yeah, i think beyond the dealer, its also partly to do with the manufactuers of course, if you went to most manufactuers direct, and say, let me have 500 pieces of amps and subs, you prolly get away with some pretty crazy deals, and then you can make a good profit on ebay selling at 5 points below...

this is why i say i dont see an end in sight or a solution to any of this...but i have a feeling the day reckoning is coming upon us. just like it happeend for the mortage industry


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Bing,

Thanks for your perspective. I was honestly asking. Don't mean to be hostile towards you at all; look up my comments in your threads.

I just take offense to those who act as if their business has a right to a profit, while they simultaneously refuse to adapt to changing times. I take more offense when these people blame it on the customer, when it's quite obvious the blame lies with the manufacturers.

And I contend that capitalism is why we all get to enjoy this stupid hobby in the first place.


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

no worries mate...

i never was blaming the customer was I? i juts think the customers, the shops, the reps the manufactuers, we are all cogs in the same machine that is spinning around (downward if you ask me)...i dont really fault anyone, as we each have our part in the process, and like i said, i dont htink anyhting is going to change until something drastic happens that cuase some major component to break...

my whole point is, TRY to see it from the other side as well, and dont just BLAME BM shops for everything, not only is generalizing everyone not fair, it just causes more hostility, i mean, i am sure you can imagine what a fourm dedicated to the industry side think of the Diyers right? i jiust wish there isnt so much hostility overall.

i acutally dont believe capitalism is why i am doing this hehe, i certianly didnt go to a top 20 university and get a masters just so i can work on cars all day to make the best money, if i wanted to just make cash i'd be doing consulting hehe...oh noes, does that mean i am a communist? i AM frm china afterall lol


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

simplicityinsound said:


> i never was blaming the customer was I?


No no no not at all, and those kinds of comments weren't directed at you at all. OP, maybe.

Doing what you want for a living is indeed the point of capitalism to me, though.

Also,



> i am sure you can imagine what a fourm dedicated to the industry side think of the Diyers right?


Not really. That's why I am honestly curious to hear the perspective. I understand that you aren't taking any sides. My guess would be that we think we are awesome, but our work is actually hack jobs? And we just post pictures of the good parts?


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

how about if doing what you want makes you less money and profit than doing what you are trained in?  i dont think personal satisfaction matters in the realm of capitalism...maybe that makes my work more "spiritual than material".

as far as what hte other side things, i cant speak for all of course, but the whole hack thing, is a part of it, albeit a small part...lets say the OP may have stated some feelings of the industry side in his original post...

whcih is what lead me to make my post, its both sides blaming each other hehe...although, i will say this again, i dont think this forum's members, makes up nearly enough of a percentage of the general customer base for mobile electronics for this debate to have much meaning here.


----------



## arrivalanche (Jun 27, 2008)

I would have to say that after reading these post I truly point the finger at the distributors. Chances are they are cutting the legs out from underneath themselves by knowingly providing unauthorized dealers with product just to make their numbers for the month. by doing this they are intern killing off the only legit dealers they have. Consumers will always go for the best deal however it presents itself. In the end we as installers or otherwise are looking at a dead end bc no matter how good we are there will be no place for us.

Now I must comment on the topic brought up about how the small business has "no right to a profit"?? Is it just me or does that just make you feel dumb just reading it? Small businesses is what this country is based on. Even on the bigger level you need to think about how its all part of an economy. If you dont feed it, it will just die. If you think that no business should see a profit that eventually it directly effects you and your way of life. You seriously need to think of the bigger picture.


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

hehehe, forget about it mang, didnt you read the paragraph right above where he made that comment?:



capnxtreme said:


> I work in software...


that hsould explain it all  you know waht they say about CS guys and common sense ...

btw cpnextreme, i am totally kiddin with you, its just that i went to a major CS/ECE school and lived with CS and ECE majors throughout my times in college i am used to making such jokes hehe


----------



## unpredictableacts (Aug 16, 2006)

bobditts said:


> *knowledgable* mom and pop shops ftw!!!


Sometimes easier said than found.

I say if you are offering the same product for more money invest that money in making your crew very knowledgable......hell get them an account username and let them set down at the computer and simply read.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Blaming the Internet, distributors, customers, or any other bogeymen misses the point. Exactly the same dynamics are at work throughout retail. The first step was the consolidation of the market by big box stores. If anybody set out to deliberately cripple the independents, it was chains like Tweeter. They then suffered under the same tactics from Best Buy, CC, etc. A small shop can not win in a contest with massive buying power and subsidized installation fees.

The Internet has turned electronics into commodities. The small shops only think online sales are their biggest problem because that's what they hear about everyday - "$1500? I can buy the same thing online for $600". They don't interact with the customers who go straight to the big box for price and because there is some security in having a warranty from a known, national entity.

The old practice of making money from product markup is dead - can't be done in a commodity market. As fredridge suggested, the most sensible way for a skilled installer to thrive in this market is to sell his services at a fair price. There will always be a demand for quality work. It will be a small segment of total sales. DIY will be a small segment. Most people go to the big box and be happy with the result.


----------



## Pitbully (Jun 17, 2008)

simplicityinsound said:


> i see the "let me tell you my personal experience and apply it as a general rule to everyone" argument is still alive and well
> 
> you are a classic DIYer, not only on audio but on virtually everything, but if you think the general public and and the entire industry is just like you, i thin kyou are a bit mistaken.
> 
> ...


Funny you can apply a general rule, yet I cant apply real life experience? If I can find a cheaper price for any part and have an <installer> install it, that is the business they are in - I will. I am having my stereo installed at futureshop I brought all my own equipment. Yes the service industry makes money off the parts they supply, but should they is another question... If it saves me money or it is more convenient I will pay for it. Otherwise I will try to get the best price for a part to be used. Others should do the same. 

As you saw I live in Ottawa Canada.


----------



## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

simplicityinsound said:


> First of all, i think having this debate on a forum like diyma is kinda pointless.


Normally I agree with your viewpoints....in this case I disagree with you 1000%

Why?

This website has 2 things:

1) TRAFFIC

2)The type of members that will intelligently debate a topic such as this at length presenting BOTH sides of the arguement. This *IS* first and foremost a *CAR AUDIO* website and the best one around to boot as of now.

I started reading when this thread was 4 pages long so BOTH of my points are proven.

I expected better of you BING.


----------



## Vestax (Aug 16, 2005)

GlasSman said:


> Normally I agree with your viewpoints....in this case I disagree with 1000%
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


I think he meant given that it's DIY forum, it's obvious that most members here wouldn't employ the service of a professional. So naturally, there's going to be a biased position on the opposite end of the spectrum.

IMO, I think it's pointless in another perspective, that people need to have more open minded views and see what it's like to work in the 12v industry and to also see what's it like to get screwed over by the same folks. 

Think of it this way.... can you show anybody how to install remote start alarm on a Dodge Diesel with wait to start, door lock actuators, diode door pins, 2 relays on a MUX acc/st wire? I think I would trust a professional for that. On the other hand, can you ask installer that you want to fix the phasing issue you have between your door mounted IB'ed double midbass drivers and midranges on the dash by changing both the xover with steeper slope and parametric EQ settings on the 4 Beringers you have underneath the seats? He'll probably start pulling out his flat head screw driver to make the settings.


----------



## guisar (Nov 20, 2007)

While I don't own a business and therefor my opinion is worth well, not much I'd certainly shop at a shop which offered the sort of advice you find here but in an interactive fashion. If they had terminals I could use with the sales people to pick things out and they would assist with or do the install, offer advice I'd be more than will to shop there. I see the shops as offering a service, not a product. As it is, I'm totally unsure there's even a shop around which would be interested in doing something like build some fiberglass boxes I need or help with measurement or imaging/setup. I wouldn't even know how to find one other than calling around and wasting tons of time trying to find a decent place. I could use that time to do the job myself....


----------



## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

Im not as deep as some of you guys on this forum in terms of knowledge, but I do know when somebody is giving me a load of crap. In the last few years the sales staff have gradually pushed me online. I stop by shops and listen to the out of the world bs they tell you and how the only product in the world worth anything is their highend line at a crazy mark up. I can read a magazine, look at different forums, listen to a few cars and get a somewhat informed opinion, why cant sales staff at the local shops do the same. I also appreciate honesty. Some of these guys only know about the product line on the their soundboard, much less some of the drivers and brands used on a forum like this. If you dont know, say it and I will work with you. I hear guys say off the wall stuff and then try to treat me stupid when you question the crap they just said. So after I have a bad experience from the sales staff to the management, why would I turn around and then give them 2 or 3 hundred more for a head unit I just saw online and read the review they never heard about. To make it worse, most of the shops near me are nothing more than glorified rim shops that happen to sell JL or Rockford. They dont do anything like soundoffs to get you in to the shops now. Basically the shops have turned into a place if you have some cash, we will throw some rims and 15's in your car.


----------



## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Vestax said:


> I think he meant given that it's DIY forum, it's obvious that most members here wouldn't employ the service of a professional. So naturally, there's going to be a biased position on the opposite end of the spectrum.
> 
> IMO, I think it's pointless in another perspective, that people need to have more open minded views and see what it's like to work in the 12v industry and to also see what's it like to get screwed over by the same folks.
> 
> Think of it this way.... can you show anybody how to install remote start alarm on a Dodge Diesel with wait to start, door lock actuators, diode door pins, 2 relays on a MUX acc/st wire? I think I would trust a professional for that. On the other hand, can you ask installer that you want to fix the phasing issue you have between your door mounted IB'ed double midbass drivers and midranges on the dash by changing both the xover with steeper slope and parametric EQ settings on the 4 Beringers you have underneath the seats? He'll probably start pulling out his flat head screw driver to make the settings.



True.

However in my face to face conversations I've only met a handful of people that actually go to audio related internet forums.

I guess I view this website as much more than it was a few years ago. You know....what does Madisound and PE have that I can use in my system approach".

The collection of individuals we have here is excellent.

And a *PEREFCT* place to debate this topic.


----------



## 20strong (Apr 10, 2008)

I know I dont post here often but I am an avid DIY'er. I had my very first HU installed by a supposedly great shop. I drove well over 70 miles round trip to have it installed. After the install my Hazard button would not go in (2004 ZX3). The dash had screw driver marks all over it, and the FM Radio was horrible. 

When I tore it all apart and went all DIY on it. I found that they had not installed the harness jumper I paid for, they simply spliced. They cut the Wire for my Hazard button? They also removed my at the time expensive RCA cable and installed a piece of crap. I didnt even ask for RCA's??

No thanks I will buy my product were the price is the best and install it myself.


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

what percentage of customers do you estimate that the B&M shops in the entire industry enjoys comes from diyma, or any car audio forum? if you say more than 5 percent i would say you are seriously mistaken. even for me, who is on diyma and other car audio forums more tha virtually any other professional on the industry side, i would say that my cusotmer base from diyma or any other car audio forums is less than 5 percent. and if you go then into the big boxes, such as CC or BB, or say crutchfield, or hell, the average guy who buys stuff on ebay...how many of them do you think is from car audio forums and can related to us here on diyma?

that is why i say its pointless to have this debate here, its just as pointless if you guys went on to a industry side only forum and started debating the same point with people form that forum, becuase they harbor varying amounts of negative feelings towrdas the DIYer...

but in the end, neither side can make or break th other, so whats the point? 

i am not saying diyma is not important, hell i find it the most relevant car audio website there is, but cmon man, if you think what we decide on here has a noticable impact on the industry as a whole...i dont really know what to say.

furthermore, what makes it even more pointless is the very small representation of industry side folks here, i would say hte ratio is a full 10 to 1, if not dramatically more, so whooee, we get a 100 people on diyma who disagrees with the OP and makes some good points regarding why B&M shops and the industry being wrong, but whos really debating agianst you? how many true industry side people are on here? isnt it a bit preaching to the choir? 

agian, make no mistake, i am NOt on the other SIDE, my whole point throughout this debate is to try to get people to see it a little bit from BOTH sides  just pointing fingers and citing personal experience doesnt get anywhere


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

I don't mind paying the prices. I don't want to be lied to, stolen from, have my car f'd up or be pressured into buying a dual.


----------



## robbyho (Oct 21, 2005)

simplicityinsound said:


> what percentage of customers do you estimate that the B&M shops in the entire industry enjoys comes from diyma, or any car audio forum? if you say more than 5 percent i would say you are seriously mistaken. even for me, who is on diyma and other car audio forums more tha virtually any other professional on the industry side, i would say that my cusotmer base from diyma or any other car audio forums is less than 5 percent. and if you go then into the big boxes, such as CC or BB, or say crutchfield, or hell, the average guy who buys stuff on ebay...how many of them do you think is from car audio forums and can related to us here on diyma?
> 
> that is why i say its pointless to have this debate here, its just as pointless if you guys went on to a industry side only forum and started debating the same point with people form that forum, becuase they harbor varying amounts of negative feelings towrdas the DIYer...
> 
> ...


Still, discussing our opinions on the matter is not pointless to us or you, so let's just continue.

It seems that there are so many stories that involve bad experiences with shops. They all have one of a few structures, something like:

Bought products to have installed
Shop installs products
There are problems with the install
Shop "takes care" of problems
Problems persist and owner goes diy to find install is missing parts, done incorrectly, lied to, etc.

Is there a resource available to consumers to know which shops are good and which shops are bad? A website that offers reviews of the shop's work?
That would be one way to weed out the good from the bad.

Robby


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

robbyho said:


> Still, discussing our opinions on the matter is not pointless to us or you, so let's just continue.
> 
> It seems that there are so many stories that involve bad experiences with shops. They all have one of a few structures, something like:
> 
> ...


in an ideal world, as i mentioend in my first post, such a site would be great. but honestly, i dont see anyhting like this happening.

there are just SOOO many variables, such as:

1. shops that do both great and bad work, depending on installer
2. shops that do good work but bad customer service
3. shops that just rubbed someone the wrong way, when indeed the customer is at fault
4. shops that are good but practices bad stuff when it comes to pricing and transhipping
etc etc

what this basically means is, we will maybe weed out a small percentage of the truly horrible shops, (many are so small that no one really knows about them to post on such a site), and we may come out with a few stellar shops, but in the end, what do we do about a vast majority of shops that some have had good experiences wtih, while some have had bad? 

and if such a ranking happens, shops, good nad bad, espeically the bad, will go out of their way to try and get good stuff said about htem, have their freinds and hwat not post good things...etc etc...so in the end, its still a bit of a crapshoot no?

this is why i mostly rely on word of mouth, or in todays world, word of keyboard 

p.s. when i say pointless i am by no means saying no one should post or speak their mind, who the hell am I to say that??? i just meant that i am not quite sure what end result is going to come out of this other than the forgone conclusion? its sorta like debating why american cars are bad on a site called "www.ilovejapanesecarsandhateamericancars.com" hehe


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

OldOneEye said:


> Since you are an expert in markup, how much markup do you think there is in other products you are buying? Do you think car audio is the only product that has any kind of markup? How do you think that order of fries at McDonalds cost you? Coffee at Starbucks?
> 
> Juan


Sure wish I could figure out how to buy a nice, fresh hot cup of starbucks coffee via ebay for 1/3rd the price.


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

txbonds said:


> Sure wish I could figure out how to buy a nice, fresh hot cup of starbucks coffee via ebay for 1/3rd the price.


it least it won't be served by a bunch of dimwitted bimbos trying to get you to hurry up and make the thirtieth decision involving one cup of joe. bitches. baristas are going to be the next creepy cult. I'm sure of it.


----------



## dejo (Jan 3, 2006)

simplicityinsound said:


> what percentage of customers do you estimate that the B&M shops in the entire industry enjoys comes from diyma, or any car audio forum? if you say more than 5 percent i would say you are seriously mistaken. even for me, who is on diyma and other car audio forums more tha virtually any other professional on the industry side, i would say that my cusotmer base from diyma or any other car audio forums is less than 5 percent. and if you go then into the big boxes, such as CC or BB, or say crutchfield, or hell, the average guy who buys stuff on ebay...how many of them do you think is from car audio forums and can related to us here on diyma?
> 
> that is why i say its pointless to have this debate here, its just as pointless if you guys went on to a industry side only forum and started debating the same point with people form that forum, becuase they harbor varying amounts of negative feelings towrdas the DIYer...
> 
> ...


What percentage of people going into a B&M are going to buy high end equipment that dont go to some type of audio forum. I would guess that it is higher than you think. maybe not the ones just wanting something to brutalize the neighborhood, or just everyday equipment.


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

dejo said:


> What percentage of people going into a B&M are going to buy high end equipment that dont go to some type of audio forum. I would guess that it is higher than you think. maybe not the ones just wanting something to brutalize the neighborhood, or just everyday equipment.


ahem...someone with elates and sinfonis maybe? and then we have to take our sorry asses to diyma to figure out how to make it sound good after the ****ty assed installer puts in a planet audio line-driver......perhaps. frankly, the car aduio industry deserves to be shaken up just as much as someone spending a **** load of money without doing alot of research first. they sell lies and we buy them...well...not anymore but you get my drift.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

I did a little of each. I used a local shop for my custom fiberglass sub box, but had I had the time I would probably have done that on my own. Most of my purchases have been made online though, but not for lack of wanting to deal local. My problem is that the shops locally didn't have what I wanted. 

The shop that did my subbox had a nice, but small, selection of gear, but not specifically the items I wanted. The other shop I know of in town is the type of shop that seems to cater to bass heads. You walk in, and they have a room the size of a closet for head units and speakers, but they have a room that is probably 1200 square feet dedicated to nothing but sub displays and huge amps. Things like 1000 watt RF's and JL's. Not exactly my kind of shop.

Back in the 80's and 90's though, the local shops were worth going to, to me, because they offered lots of products, as well as specialized products. They did custom work and knew their stuff. I know there are still similar shops out there, but not in the smaller town I live in.


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

dejo said:


> What percentage of people going into a B&M are going to buy high end equipment that dont go to some type of audio forum. I would guess that it is higher than you think. maybe not the ones just wanting something to brutalize the neighborhood, or just everyday equipment.


i think the percentage is slightly higher here, but it wouldnt be more than say 10 prcent in my estimate...there are shops turning out high end isntalls (nots ure where youdraw the cut off line for high end sometimes), loaded with top end focal, dls, zapco, arc, macintosh, audison, all day long, without the customers coming from the forums...

infact, many retailers dislike when guys who are looking for high end gear but is a regular member on forums to go to them, becuase frequenty, they will be a bit indecisive, want to price match with web sites, and generally more needy than the typical customer. 

i think again, your view really reflects the side of the DIYer and very little understanding of what majority of the industry retailers think about it.

if you want to find out for yourself, lets take the most popular of "highend" brands, focal - audison, look through their dealer list, and just imagine even if on average, a single shop sold just one piece of gear per week (this would be a relatively low estimate), add the shops together, and do an estimate of how many pieces of high end gear has been sold over the past say three years, and then cross reference it with the number of people who run focal-audison on this forum who acutally bourhg it from a dealer,and even with that super inaccurate estimate, yo uwill see pretty easy how small of a percnetage audio forum enthusists is, when compared to the general customer base as a whole. 

but i know nothing i say will convince you other wise, whcih goes back to my feeling that a debate liket his on diyma is a foregone conclusion hehe


----------



## Vestax (Aug 16, 2005)

Damn you guys are pretty harsh on installers. I've personally met some of the best out there, and these guys love doing what they do. I think if you can do some more research other than the forum, you can really get some really good work done properly. I have read a lot of complaints on this forum that aren't even legit sometimes. Things like "This shop screwed up my 96 civic and now my alarm keyless and domelight doesn't work after I told them to specifically use the harness I had from my 93 Civic. These idiots said I need to keep my old radio in." Little does this person know that the stock keyless entry module is on the radio, and a Metra 1720T is required to jump the radios and wires together. 

Like I've said before, installers/12v employees are in one world, and the audiophile/DIYer/enthusiast are in another. The ones with both or hybrids, are normally the talented ones. It's rare to have both.


----------



## dejo (Jan 3, 2006)

I have some poeple that I consider very good friends that are great installers. and I do try to use my local shops when they are reasonable, I am buying all new equipment, even though I have enough for 3 full vehicles just to promote one of my local shops. they are making me some good deals too though.


----------



## LauZaIM (Feb 20, 2008)

I feel for you, but that's just the way it rolls. If I can buy it online for half the price with a year warranty I'm not going to the local shop for it, sorry. It's not being cheap, its being economical with my money that I have to work for. I can't afford to keep businesses afloat. Frankly, you either have to adjust to the changing market or you suffer the consequences. I've never, ever had a problem with online shopping. Of course, I do my homework first so..


----------



## 96dak (Jan 28, 2008)

arrivalanche said:


> 89grand-
> 
> so you know the exact price of every product and what shops get it for?? Your being ridiculous for thinking that shops get it and mark it up %200 and thats all profit. You seem to forget about rent, utilities, etc. Also those online places can profit next to nothing on it for the fact that there is no physical business. Chances are its some guy shipping **** out of his garage. Dealers give incentives to distributers that buy in bulk which most shops cant afford to do anymore, therefor less profit. Hell anymore most shops dont even stock a lot due to the fact that they have less profits. Shops and online are two different things completely that unfortunately fight over the same industry.
> 
> Now that people have seemed to turn this into something personal, I remind you, I was asking for opinions. Like I have mentioned I understand "why". You all seem to be aiming this at me like Im the ****ty shop that screwed each of you over at one point or another.


what gets me is everybody thinking that there's an incredible markup on anything anymore. i dont know about dealer costs in the states but in canada (my shop in particular) the average markup is about 25-30 %. thats hardly enough to pay the bills for the month. when all these people complain that they can get such and such amp for $300 online so the authorized dealers are getting it for less and selling for $500 - $600, problem with that is the website your buying it from purchased it illegally for alot less than the dealers are paying for it. thats why crutchfields pricing on alpine for example isnt that far off what you would get it for at a B&M, they are buying it legally from alpine just the same as i am.


----------



## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

txbonds said:


> Sure wish I could figure out how to buy a nice, fresh hot cup of starbucks coffee via ebay for 1/3rd the price.


Is that *BEFORE* shipping?


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

GlasSman said:


> Is that *BEFORE* shipping?



Good point. Guess I'd have to buy them in bulk to spread the shipping cost. hmmmmm Interesting enough I just heard a rumor that starbucks is closing like 600 stores, which is pretty much unheard of in their history.




Looks like this was also my monumental 1000th post too.


----------



## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

There are good shops and bad shops... IMO, shops are necessary in this business. The majority of people don't have the time, knowledge and/or skills to do their own install work. Many people don't even *want* to do the work, they just want to have the nice stereo. That is blasphemy on the forums, but many people have the money and just want it done.

Many of the same guys pinching pennies on audio also like to attend car audio competition events (SQ and SPL) - who hosts these events? For the most part, audio retailers.

Sure, retailers aren't for everyone - some of us not only know how to install our audio but we ENJOY it (myself included). But I think most forums hold too much negativity towards shops based on the, IMO, smaller percentage of bad shops. Remember, an unhappy customer usually tells more people than a happy customer!


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

96dak said:


> what gets me is everybody thinking that there's an incredible markup on anything anymore. i dont know about dealer costs in the states but in canada (my shop in particular) the average markup is about 25-30 %. thats hardly enough to pay the bills for the month. when all these people complain that they can get such and such amp for $300 online so the authorized dealers are getting it for less and selling for $500 - $600, problem with that is the website your buying it from purchased it illegally for alot less than the dealers are paying for it. thats why crutchfields pricing on alpine for example isnt that far off what you would get it for at a B&M, they are buying it legally from alpine just the same as i am.


Uhm, you mean "unauthorized," not "illegal."

$500-600 > $300 + (300 * .30)

How does one "illegally" buy from Alpine? Regardless of how the units are getting out there, it's pretty f'n obvious where the blame lies.

Why would you even want to be an authorized distributor, if all it means is that you have to buy for a high price, and can't compete with your own pricing?


----------



## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

txbonds said:


> Good point. Guess I'd have to buy them in bulk to spread the shipping cost. hmmmmm Interesting enough I just heard a rumor that starbucks is closing like 600 stores, which is pretty much unheard of in their history.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congrats on the 1000th!

As already stated in this thread said ALL sectors of retail are being affected.

If Starbucks can see the writing on the wall than the way I see it is the MANUFACTURERS need to stop screwing the B+M shops and MAKE sure that the money ends up in their hands.....or more of it anyway. 

It's a bean bag. Theres is just so much money and if you push down on one side it all ends up on the other side.

When will the manufactuers work with the shops to even out the bean bag?

The real question is..... will it EVER happen?


----------



## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

GlasSman said:


> Congrats on the 1000th!
> 
> As already stated in this thread said ALL sectors of retail are being affected.
> 
> ...


Thats what it comes down to. 

B&M's these days are surviving with alarms, intallations, and tint work much moreso than equipment sales.

Its the car audio manufacturers that back-door equipment, allowing their distributors to sell direct. Its the same high volume distributor that the B&M's get their product from ....with the ebay accounts and multiple branded online stores ...how can a B&M compete with its own distributors pricing and online sales? Some B&M's cant buy an amplifier for what a distributor sells for(and profits from). So in essense theres no room for B&M's to flourish in this market CREATED BY THE MANUFACTURERS. Manufacturers want big business, anyway they can get it. Everyone one of them want to be an Alpine or JL overnight, they forget it starts from the core.

So the hypocracy lies on the manufacturers themselves who claim 'we fully support our dealers'....they supply the dagger, the ones higher in the food chain merely push it into the little guys. But not only do they allow this, they'll hold a dealer liable and apply restrictions by not allowing them to sell online? Talk about handing the B&M dealer the ****ty end of the stick.

Manufacturers dump all their product at the B&M's expense, yet dont modify or allow the small guys to compete in any shape or form top this very market they have created. And its the B&M's responsibility to push and market their product? Manufacturers are THE whores of the 12v industry. They f%&K you every which way. But hey.... you have their support! For anything to change it has to start from the top.

Well its a matter of what goes around comes back around for some companies. When their warranty shelves fill up to a point they start losing some serious money and brand reputation suffers and public dissent increases from outspoken dissatisfied customers....the manufacturer has to eventually lay in its own grave.


----------



## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

Times 100. Except for the online sales part. Having worked retail and online, I can tell you that the great majority of dealers have no business being an online retailer. It's that simple. It would be so much easier if manufacturers just handed over the requirements list and said "if you want to be a dealer, all you need to do is follow the same rules Crutchfield follows". Once they figure out that its a $100k commitment, they'll shut up. It's the "you can't have that" that drives so many to want to be able to sell online.

Frankly, I don't think the warranty shelf is the dirt that will fill the manufacturers' grave with them inside. You just make tougher, more bulletproof product, problem solved and offer tech support to the end user. It's when the small dealers figure out they have been in the middle of a three card monty game and they are the "mark" and just leave either because they are out of business or because the dealer wised up and figured out to do business with someone else.

Juan




3.5max6spd said:


> Thats what it comes down to.
> 
> B&M's these days are surviving with alarms, intallations, and tint work much moreso than equipment sales.
> 
> ...


----------



## dwvw (Jul 2, 2008)

I know where I live, I have never once had a customer who was on a forum. I have been installing professionally since 1995. That's a long time, and being ion a big box box store I see alot of customers. The DIYMA crowd is a very small percentage of the car audio buying public, just like dB Draggers and IASCA competitors are a small percentage of the car audio buying public.

The fact is the people who are on DIYMA would have been the "easy" customers back in the early 90's. They would come in and say "I want this and this and this" and hand over the money. There was no salesmanship required because the customer did all the legwork.

Now these DIY'ers can do all that from their home and save a few bucks (or alot). Why would you expect them to come in?

The trouble is that the general car audio buying public doesn't go into the mom and pop shops as much as the big boxes. It's up to the Manufacturers and mom and pop retailers to figure out how to get these people into the small shops.

As for the DIYMA crowd, from the short time I have browsed the site the level of skill around here doesn't represent the average DIY'er I see, who has no idea what they are talking about, and even less skill accomplishing the physical install. I think that almost every great installer started out as a DIY'er and finding the good DIY'er with passion is the best way to get installers WHO WANT TO LEARN, which can be harder than finding a DIY'er who knows what they are doing.


----------



## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

DWVW,
I don't think I agree that it's the manufacturers job to market the local shops. The big boxes don't expect the manufacturers to do it, why would a little shop expect it?

And I agree, too many people think they are the average user. Computer guys are the same way "oh, that's easy just go in and change your config file"..... WTF? Ditto here. Time and time again, you see guys go "uh, I went to this shop and the guy behind the counter didn't know who Elemental Design was (using them as an example, since they have pretty good penetration in lots of the forums), man those guys don't know crap".

The meek who are waiting for the manufacturers and reps and distributors to get their act together and give them a hand are going to be in deep ****. As the saying goes, the meek shall inherit the earth, but lets see how meek they are when they do.

Juan


----------



## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

OldOneEye said:


> It's when the small dealers figure out they have been in the middle of a three card monty game and they are the "mark" and just leave either because they are out of business or because the dealer wised up and figured out to do business with someone else.
> 
> Juan


And who can B&M's turn around and do business with these days Juan? Voodoo peripherals?lol

It is a double edged sword man. You remove the brand names and go generic to profit and you lose the very little bit of clientelle you had or can draw in.

The worse part must be for these B&M when they head over to the warehouse for their basic Metra and DEI needs and cant afford to pick up anything else. 

How about a common, (un)funny conversation?

Manufacturer/distributor rep: 
"Hey hows it going? Havent placed an order in a while just checking out to see if you guys are still alive..."

B&M: 
" ...business is slow, getting phone calls for pricing but no ones buying...."

Manufacturer/distributor rep:
" Really? hmmmnnn....sales have actually been good, we cant keep stuff in stock...."

B&M:
" I have stuff here on the shelves...no one wants it..."

What does that tell me? Manufacturers are actually doing fine with B&M's decreasing amount of support. A strong B&M base would be the cherry on top. But lets face it,first and foremost all they want is to eat the damn cake....toppings or not..

It seems even newer, smaller manufacturers/marketeers go sales direct or the same route as the big boy manufacturers...find high volume distributor and turn their back faster than you can spell B&M. But yeah, make sure to make those calls and motivate dealers to financially support them whether its 
via shelf space/display or organizing shows etc...

Its the only formula that works. You want to work in caraudio and make good coin? Pony up some dough and become a distributor and open up some online shops(everything thats supposed to be the manufacturer/dealer antichrist. And on the way you get screw dealers by taking their money wholesale too if god forbid they actually find a way to sell something... 

I see no resurrection of the small guys...the B&M's. I cant think of a worse business to involved in honestly from a profitable perspective...Theres just too much downside, too must cost and simply not enough demand today.

Car stereo specialty shops are on their way out. You are better off opening a store specializing in other areas- tints, performance, detailing...and somehow manage to offer car stereo installs for those that may bite. Thats the only way to gain a clientelle for car audio under these conditions and big box stores every mile radius.

Its pretty sad when a B&M cant refuse to do an install for someone who bought an unauthorized product to them...because they cant afford to have that customer walk out the door for $80 and a half to a whole days of work...is it not?


----------



## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

I can't remember how many times I have heard guys say "my rep/manufacturer/distributor ****ed me", and then you asked how they fired them.... and they say they still do business with them. There are some vendors in pretty much every category that are better than others. You don't like seeing Pioneer at a gas station, sell Kenwood or Excelon instead. Lots of choices to make. 

Juan


----------



## 8tz (Mar 6, 2008)

arrivalanche said:


> Its just really killing the industry. I personally after 10 years have said "F it!" and got out of car audio and am back in college. It sucks that I have to quit something I love bc people are cheep. The only thing keeping our area alive is its a rich area where most people are driving porshces and aston martins. even at that its still hard. I just want to find all those guys selling product sideways online and kick each and everyone of them in the balls. I get a kick out of people bringing in their failed product that they bought online and asking us to send it im bc we are a authorized dealer. Good luck with that. Not only do most companies not take it but the ones who do charge you damn near the price of the amp to fix it as a punishment.


going to college is better than installing speakers for the rest of your life. i wish i had stayed there instead of being a retard and quit. also, do you realize that gas is $4/gallon and food prices are going up? would you want to say that you're glad you paid full price for an amp and are eating mustard sandwiches, but have a smile on your face because Jumpin' Joe's Audio is still in business? it's just inevitable that smaller audio shops will close due to people getting the heads out of their asses and saving $ online.


----------



## dwvw (Jul 2, 2008)

Here's the thing Juan, the manufacturers ARE SUPPORTING THE BIG BOXES, they pay them good money in co-op advertising, prime display spots, etc.

Here's the thing with DIY, it's a vicious circle. The Shops charge too much, so no one goes there. That's probably the shop with knowledgeable staff. Another shop is dirt cheap, but the employees are idiots. Guess what no one goes there. Now there are no shops, and DIY's no longer have anywhere to audition new gear. So it's all word of mouth, cool, we can get lots of opinions on DIYMA. Except some shady company who never has to worry about warranty signs up under a bunch of users claiming they used this new amp and it blows everything else away. It is actually a piece of crap and just blows up. This company does this a few times, and then more and more pop up doing it.

That could be the future of car audio as we know it. Who really knows?


----------



## Tode9 (Jan 27, 2008)

arrivalanche said:


> Now I must comment on the topic brought up about how the small business has "no right to a profit"?? Is it just me or does that just make you feel dumb just reading it? Small businesses is what this country is based on. Even on the bigger level you need to think about how its all part of an economy. If you dont feed it, it will just die. If you think that no business should see a profit that eventually it directly effects you and your way of life. You seriously need to think of the bigger picture.


Not right as in justified, but right as in entitlement. There isn't an entitlement to profit, just opportunity.


Opportunity to profit that is, not entitlement to opportunity.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Yeah, with starbucks, they just reached a saturation point and started eating their own sales. They built so many stores within close proximity that they canabalized each other. They are closing 600 out of about 11000, but I think they are also still opening 200, so go figure. 

I know where I used to live there were 3 in the same block, and it wasn't even a huge town. In New York city there are so many it's not even funny. They even put them right across the street from each other to not miss the foot traffic that wouldn't cross the street, and also to releive the wait lines in stores.

Crazy...............






GlasSman said:


> Congrats on the 1000th!
> 
> As already stated in this thread said ALL sectors of retail are being affected.
> 
> ...


----------



## adcomcyclone (Jun 27, 2008)

In the past I had great experiences with a local shop, and actually after making a few purchases, the owner sold me items at near mail order prices(years ago--didn't have internet at the time), because I would refer friends to buy stuff. The employees were knowledgable and did nice work. Sadly, as this thread is about, that shop closed a couple of years ago, and I have since moved.

Now I buy nearly everything online, but for a reason different than most. I only use vintage equipment, and the few newly made items I still plan to buy, the shops in my area do not carry. Other than the wiring and the tweeters and midbass, everything I own is 10+ years old.

For custom work, I am perfectly willing to pay a shop to do it, because I would butcher it, but I have had no need for it simply because my installs are very basic, and the equipment is regularly changing as I locate the items I want in the final install.


----------



## arrivalanche (Jun 27, 2008)

I will have to say you guys think there is a LOT more markup than there actually is. Lots of times we know we cant get full pop on equipment so what we do is give you a package deal and knock off like 20% especially if you are a frequent customer.

BUT I will say coming to a shop and asking to see some high end brand's highest end line on the board is just a joke! You think we wait around for you to come by and listen to it so you can turn right around and buy it online? We as sales people/ installers can see what we call "strokers" coming from a mile away. You then love to talk about some forum famous brand that only you select few have heard of or care about, and then proceed to look at us like we dont know anything. Not to mention when you come in and say "well i read on a forum...." *click* that was us just turning you off. The majority of DIYers think they know more than us, but the truth is they might know their car top to bottom and thats great, but we know 100s of cars. Do you know all the cars I know, not to mention anything past your theories that you read on a forum or a mag?? Most likely not. I know there are hacks out there and you know what, we hate them to. But just give the ones that do good work their props, bc ive seen some of the work done on here that people think is good and there is no room to brag, but on the other hand i have seen some work that any shop would be proud to claim. DIYers are not innocent in this game, bc for as many bad shops as you so blatantly point out, we as installers have seen bad DIY jobs.


----------



## robbyho (Oct 21, 2005)

arrivalanche said:


> I will have to say you guys think there is a LOT more markup than there actually is. Lots of times we know we cant get full pop on equipment so what we do is give you a package deal and knock off like 20% especially if you are a frequent customer.
> 
> BUT I will say coming to a shop and asking to see some high end brand's highest end line on the board is just a joke! You think we wait around for you to come by and listen to it so you can turn right around and buy it online? We as sales people/ installers can see what we call "strokers" coming from a mile away. You then love to talk about some forum famous brand that only you select few have heard of or care about, and then proceed to look at us like we dont know anything. Not to mention when you come in and say "well i read on a forum...." *click* that was us just turning you off. The majority of DIYers think they know more than us, but the truth is they might know their car top to bottom and thats great, but we know 100s of cars. Do you know all the cars I know, not to mention anything past your theories that you read on a forum or a mag?? Most likely not. I know there are hacks out there and you know what, we hate them to. But just give the ones that do good work their props, bc ive seen some of the work done on here that people think is good and there is no room to brag, but on the other hand i have seen some work that any shop would be proud to claim. DIYers are not innocent in this game, bc for as many bad shops as you so blatantly point out, we as installers have seen bad DIY jobs.



I think you aren't helping your cause at all. You epitomized the type of installer/salesperson who us "DIYers" have a problem with. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the above post, you are saying that you disregard people who read "something" on a forum and then come in for more information? And you don't let customers hear your hi end products before buying them?

Much of DIY is a learning experience and the goals are different than if the work were for someone else. 

A shop on the other hand is selling their work to someone else and _everything_ needs to be their best work. 

Robby


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

ya i would think thats why shops dont get that many high end sales, I am not gonna shell out $1500 for a component set I dont even get to sample first, ya listening it in a room isnt the same as hearing it in a car but gives you a better idea.

me personally I wouldnt care if every car audio shop closed, cause i will never buy from them or let them put there hands on my car again

internet purchases ftw


----------



## arrivalanche (Jun 27, 2008)

robbyho said:


> I think you aren't helping your cause at all. You epitomized the type of installer/salesperson who us "DIYers" have a problem with. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the above post, you are saying that you disregard people who read "something" on a forum and then come in for more information? And you don't let customers hear your hi end products before buying them?
> 
> Much of DIY is a learning experience and the goals are different than if the work were for someone else.
> 
> ...


If you took it that way im sorry. I was meaning that they come in and talk at us, like they are informing us rather than asking for info.

and about the high end, few shops even have x brand's top-top end equipment. they just cant afford to stock it for people that wont buy it anyways and then it becomes used not to mention old where the vendor wont take it back.


----------



## Vestax (Aug 16, 2005)

I wonder what's the rate of individuals on this board audition before they purchase something on the internet.


----------



## robbyho (Oct 21, 2005)

Vestax said:


> I wonder what's the rate of individuals on this board audition before they purchase something on the internet.


for me hardly ever.

But trusting the general consensus of hundreds of people who have done some sort of review on a product is safer to me than trusting a salesman who has a commission to gain. If I'm buying a piece of audio in a store, I better be able to hear it for myself.


----------



## arrivalanche (Jun 27, 2008)

understandable that you would want to "test drive" the equipment before you would want to buy it, but what is the likelihood of you buying this $2000 speakers after you listen to them when you know you can go home and jump on the net and get them cheaper. Thats why we charge the markup. We provide the option to look at it, touch it, hear it before you drop the cash. Not to mention the shop puts up the cash to keep it in stock on the hopes that you might buy from them. I would also like to ask about shipping online. I know every time I buy anything even something basic, it looks like the played soccar with it. Also being there when they deliver it is a gamble and have known plenty of people that never see their order (like me and my new flat panel PC screen) and see no compensation. There are plenty of disadvantages on both sides.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

arrivalanche said:


> Not to mention when you come in and say "well i read on a forum...." *click* that was us just turning you off. The majority of DIYers think they know more than us, but the truth is they might know their car top to bottom and thats great, but we know 100s of cars. Do you know all the cars I know, not to mention anything past your theories that you read on a forum or a mag?? Most likely not.


This is a contrary statement. You're telling me that you don't care if I know my car, because you know 100's of other cars??? 

I understand what you're trying to say but you're essentially telling me that you might not know a customer's car, but you know others so your knowledge is somehow superior and you quit listening to them. I'm sorry, but I don't care if you work on Lamborghini's, I'm GOING to tell you what I know about my car from what I've done, and from what others have done. Period. If you won't listen to me, you can kiss your customer goodbye, and you can kiss many more goodbye.

As someone who used to work in the bicycle industry as a manager, I actually enjoyed when a knowledgeable customer would come in and tell me what they want and ask questions. That's a smart shopper. That's the kind of guy I want to sell to. 

Obviously telling me _how_ to do my job is a different scenario, but I'm always open to ideas. No matter how much I think I already know. If a customer thinks he knows something I don't, I'm all ears. It's called homework.


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

There have been very few sales people/installers I've talked to at shops that know at all. I've met some that did, but most don't.

Here's a few examples, a kid came into a shop that I used to buy all my stuff from and was saying that 4 ohms subs hit harder than 8 ohm subs, he knew it because he had one of each hooked up together and the 4 ohm sub was way louder, and not one store employee was able to explain why. Elementary stuff if you ask me, of course the driver with the least resistance will get twice the power when they are wired like that, but it's not at all related to which impedance "hits harder".

Another idiot (at Kustom Kar Sound) built a sealed sub box for me for two JL 10W3's. Not only was the box not built to my specs or JL's, he said it didn't matter if I didn't think they sounded bad. Yeah, it didn't matter that my cargo cover wouldn't go back on because the box was too tall, and way more airspace than I asked for. This ******* also said when his shop does door mid bass they just put Dynamat over the hole, push it in enough for the driver to fit in, and cut a small hole for the speaker leads, and he claimed they gave great midbass like that. It took me complaining straight to JL to have them get another shop (part of the same chain of stores) to build the box over again, and they ****ed it up too, TWICE! A simple sealed box.

Those and other stories just like it turned me off from B&M shops all together, I don't need to deal with them and I won't.


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

arrivalanche said:


> I would also like to ask about shipping online. I know every time I buy anything even something basic, it looks like the played soccar with it. Also being there when they deliver it is a gamble and have known plenty of people that never see their order (like me and my new flat panel PC screen) and see no compensation. There are plenty of disadvantages on both sides.


I've never bought anything from ebay or anywhere online and received product that was not mint. Everything in my last install, and everything I've bought for my current one look perfect, and functions perfectly.

I don't know where you get your stuff from.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

89grand said:


> I've never bought anything from ebay or anywhere online and received product that was not mint. Everything in my last install, and everything I've bought for my current one look perfect, and functions perfectly.
> 
> I don't where you get your stuff from.


Same here.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

i will buy from where i get the best price. every time.

i know full well the consequences and risks.

it's a chance i take.

haven't been burned yet...and i've been buying car audio gear online since...'97?


----------



## 1greek4u (Dec 16, 2006)

I couldn't make it past page three but this seems to be a great discussion. These points may or may have not been covered so I apologize if this stuff has been covered.

-It's much easier to browse online among an unlimited selection of brands and products online and compare specs, features, and price.

-It's much easier to order something and have it show up at my front door than drive 20+ min to go to a decent shop (and driving to these shops has usually never ended up with me purchasing something).

-If a product DOES crap out on me, I'm much more likely to just buy a new/different product than go through the hassle of waiting for a warranteed replacement to come in while my system is crippled.

-Many many salesmen are SUPER annoying and are really not that knowledgeable.

People have been complaining that the industry has been going to crap for a while now, but I completely disagree. _The internet has taken the taboo out of car audio_. There's more knowledgeable people now than there ever was. Shops used to do really well because they were ripping people off that just didn't know any better. If it wasn't for the internet, my first system would have been a mediocre one that I wasn't happy with and would have spent way to much money on. My interest in car audio would have probably ended there.

It's installation techniques and information I gathered on the internet that empowered me to learn about car audio and gain the confidence to do it on my own. The wealth of knowledge is astounding, and now that we are used to having forums, with millions of threads full of information and pictures, we complain that things aren't the way the used to be.

Well things AREN'T the way they used to be, so the industry needs to change with it. Why can't manufacturers be factory direct? I would like to be able to purchase a product directly from a manufacturer and have it come to my door. Why do we need a middleman? From my experience I haven't learned anything from local shops in my area so what good are they?

I would love it if I could walk into a shop and the only people standing there are experienced installers. I would propose a system to them and we could discuss how we can go about designing and setting it up. I could tell them what (factory direct) equipment I was thinking of purchasing and they could tell me when think it is or isn't a good idea. I know they would be telling me the truth because they aren't trying to sell me any products, they would only be charging me for installation and labor. If I was a novice they would ask me what my budget is and then suggest what kind of stuff I could buy. When we came to an agreement I would buy everything and come back with it two weeks later and get my install done.

There have already been thousand of shops that have closed down so something obviously needs to change. Why not have shops that are strictly installation based? A shop like this could survive because it would have very little overhead and none of the ridiculous startup costs associated with a traditional shop. I know I'm probably dreaming but it would be much nicer if this was the way things were.


----------



## arrivalanche (Jun 27, 2008)

You also need to know that there are PLENTY of shops where the sales person isn't on commission. Call that a good or bad thing, but most window shoppers automatically think that when we push what brands we do sell that its driven by commission. People are just so skeptical when it comes to buynig from retailers and some have every right to be, because some business practices are just a joke. When you have a commission driven sales person he will sell you ANYTHING knowing its not what you want, then when you have a hourly based salesperson they just sit there and wait for you to ask them. Its a lose lose situation, but when you assume you might not always be right. They just might be a crappy sales person or maybe they know what they are talking about.


----------



## trainman0978 (Apr 2, 2008)

I have been very loyal to a local shop for several years. And a different one before that. I went to high school with one shop owners brother, and the other shop was owned by a roommate's best friend. I got all kinds of crazy deals on stuff. Damn near never , EVER paid retail. Now yesterday as a matter of fact, I went into the current shop I try and give business to. Once again, they didn't have a simple Alpine type-R12" sub in stock in a dual 2 ohm configuration. ( I bought them two years ago, finally had one crap out on me ) . Now I have bought at least 5 different pairs of subs from these guys, several amps, 3 different head units, gobs of wire and dash kits, a couple of prefabs, tons of dash and door coaxials, all the typical name brand stuff. The last bit of money I spent in there was on speaker wire for my current install. Just before that I took my girl's car in there and had two 10s and a kicker amp tossed into the factory system. The point is, after thousands of dollars spent in there, sending co-workers and friends in who spent large amounts of money with them, .... They didn't even care or try to help me out with finding a replacement for my sub. I need the same thing on account I just built a kulicki box, and I am not doing any more upgrades for a while. 

Why is this? Well I can guess it has to do with the fact that I started asking for a Alpine 9887 deck and imprint kit back in january. They kept telling me it coming man be patient. Or ***** ( the shop owner ) just got back from CES and he placed a huge order, it will be in soon. I was willing to pay retail and everything. In march I went to California and found a shop called Al & Ed's in huntington Beach. They had it in stock. I brought back home on the plane with me. My local shop guys were pissed off that I didn't wait around. ( it now July, they still never had a single 9887 pass through the door ) I did buy all my satellite radio stuff for it through them. Paid full retail, even though I could of got it online way cheaper. 

They didn't even offer to order me a sub. I think they could of cared less. They know I have bought stuff online , and they know they are a dying breed. They keep the guys on the military base here in debt, selling rims and 12s on a finance plan. They have two other stores both 30 miles away in different directions, and The guy told me to drive to each one and check for myself. He didn't even wanna call them on my behalf. I got the impression I was now considered a " stroker " or whatever you call them that shops but never buys. All over a 350 dollar head unit and 200 dollar imprint kit.... And the fact that I bought 2 set of JL component sets online, and this shop does not even sell JL audio. I am sorry I am tired of excelon crap. The JLs sounded wonderful in other cars I listened to them installed in, and The sound amazing in mine. 

I am losing my patience with local shops. And I doubt I will spend too much more money in a shop where the employees know me buy name, where I have been to employee parties, their homes, I have even been out boating with these guys several times. I have never questioned their knowledge, I have in fact embraced it for the most part. But since I have admitted to buying online they have no desire to offer any sort of customer service. The last thing said to me was " Damn John, just buy it online... " I walked out.

I then called every other shop ( about 12 to 15 shops ) within 60-80 miles of savannah. Nobody had any dual 2 ohm subs in stock. They ALL could get one the next day, for prices anywhere from 199.00 to 229.00 dollars. One shop had ONE in stock. It would have been 70 miles down I-95 one way to get it, and they wanted 205.00 bucks for it. Add the 30 to 40 bucks in gas, and well ... you see my point. I did find it odd that all of them had a distributor that could deliver the next day close by, but everybody was similar in price. Yet no one said I can beat the other guys price or whatever. 


I had one shop tell me that a dual four ohm will be fine mixed with a dual two ohm , on a alpine MRD-M1005. He said " man you can't believe anything you read on the net ... it will match and nobody will know when you show off your gear ..." 

No thanks.

I ended up getting two , brand new 12" inch Alpine type-Rs , dual two ohm ( SWR-1222D ) online , for 234.98 shipping included. This was pretty consistent across eBay and the online shops. Anywhere from 234 to 275 after shipping. 

Tell me again why I should be so quick to get tea-bagged locally. 

Over head it not my concern as a customer. I have a right to get the most out of my money. I basically got two subs for the same price as one locally. I will say my buddies shop sells them at $ 175.00 , cheaper than anyone else in town . 

Do these manufacturers that care so much about their dealers do anything for them, or the end result customer. Do they offer training on products, beyond the sales rep stopping by the shop? Do they test dealers and installers on their work? If they do, I have never seen any of it advertised or posted up in any shop.... Why is it when I mail in a warranty card or register a product I don't get a survey or a call from a customer service rep from the factory - asking about my experience at said dealer? Stuff like this would show me I am getting more for my buck. Most shops don't even know how to tune the decks they sell, or the amps. 

I have been told " the deck comes with a great instruction manual " 

Hey idiot : show me what you know. Sell this thing to me. Make me want to buy it now!!!!

I do see a lot of plaques for "top dealer" or "volume seller" or "top shop" , all sales related. Nothing advertising any endorsement or training and schooling. I guess for the factory it is all about sell the product, no support necessary.... 

Yet online , on this forum, there is two threads about my deck and the imprint , over 30 pages long. I learned more here from other users than any one installer probably knows about it. 

A higher than internet price needs to come with more than a better warranty. Factory training, Factory certification, Factory reps showing up at the store to actually talk to customers , more advertising , even if locally, Even if by mailers to all of a shops customer base a month or so in advance.

You know a post card ...

" Come by ****** & ****** the last saturday in september, the Kicker and Alpine reps will be there all day , and greats deals one day only. Come by to learn how to get the most out of your stereo...for our customers only!!!"

but you never see this stuff, not around here anyway. Maybe a sound off every once in a while , but as brick and mortar dealer you gonna have to sell me that higher price tag. 

I am now a happy internet shopper. nothing has arrived beat up, nobody has played soccer with my packages , ( I loaded trucks at UPS for six years ) and I am sure my paypal protection or my VISA card insurance would take care of any dead on arrival problems if the offered warranty did not.


----------



## pikers (Oct 21, 2007)

Well, I don't do car professionally anymore, but on the home side, the principles are the same.

I genuinely wish anyone the best with their purchases, but here's the deal on things you don't do as a consumer:

1. Let me find out you used my time and information to buy something online, and next time you ask for me all you'll see is my back and (maybe) the bottom-side of my coffee cup;
2. Ask us to install what you bought online, and have the audacity to hold us responsible when the inevitable happens and something fails;
3. Ask us to match online pricing and demand full service. Pick one or the other;
4. Challenge my information based on some hack site like Cnet or CR;

...I could go on.

Point is fellas, have the courtesy to decide on your venue. In other words, either make the conscious choice to utilize the authorized route, or don't. Please do not cross the two; they're inherently incompatible


----------



## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

Obviously there's a lot of hostility towards people who buy online from b&m owners/employees. What ever happened to the customer is always right? If someone wants to know about an item then turn around and buy it online, big deal. I guarentee if you're courtious with them and helpful they'll eventually come back and buy something or have something installed. I purchased a lot from the local car audio shop here because they were helpful and didn't ***** that I brought in items that I bought online. I also had my ex girlfriends tint and system done there, my dads tint, system, and HID lights done there, and brothers tint and system done there. It wasn't until they got new installers that sucked that my dad and I decided to stop going there. Bottom line is don't take your aggressions out on the customers (who are just looking for deals to save money) because it'll lead to your downfall. Maybe b&m shops need to take things up with the manufacturers.


----------



## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

89grand said:


> I've never bought anything from ebay or anywhere online and received product that was not mint. Everything in my last install, and everything I've bought for my current one look perfect, and functions perfectly.
> 
> I don't know where you get your stuff from.


And again...same here.


----------



## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

89grand said:


> Another idiot (at Kustom Kar Sound) built a sealed sub box for me for two JL 10W3's. Not only was the box not built to my specs or JL's, he said it didn't matter if I didn't think they sounded bad. Yeah, it didn't matter that my cargo cover wouldn't go back on because the box was too tall, and way more airspace than I asked for. This ******* also said when his shop does door mid bass they just put Dynamat over the hole, push it in enough for the driver to fit in, and cut a small hole for the speaker leads, and he claimed they gave great midbass like that. It took me complaining straight to JL to have them get another shop (part of the same chain of stores) to build the box over again, and they ****ed it up too, TWICE! A simple sealed box.
> 
> Those and other stories just like it turned me off from B&M shops all together, I don't need to deal with them and I won't.



That my definition of a HACK SHOP.

The thing that soured me on most B&M shops was the holier than thou know it all attitude. Most of the time they don't know who they're talking to.

Combine a HACK SHOP with the nasty attitude....oh thats just yummy!

Unfortunately the good ones are the ones that you don't notice as much since they do what they have to do and not cause the usual car audio drama.


----------



## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

same here

I can't even fathom the B&M operators who say "help us stay in business, you need to do this for us" well, screw you!! if you're not doing something for ME then why should I give you my money??

and a "discount" to the retail price, down from the price on your display board, and some absolutely wretched advice are not doing something for me, and most consumers are smart enough to know the difference.

this isn't the early 90's when you could do a $15k install every week, and sell another 10k in gear... times have changed, and the good shops will stay open, the crappy ones will close. Look at all the internet service providers?? how many little ones opened up when the internet became popular? thousands and thousands, now there aren't many of them left, or they have branched out into network and other services.

I supported one great local shop, and he went under because he didn't have the business sense to be successful.


----------



## dwvw (Jul 2, 2008)

Hey Sassmaster, what made that shop great? And what business sense did he not have that made him go under?


----------



## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

the guy was a great installer and a pretty decent salesperson. He had a great attitude... what he did well, he really did well and was more than willing to help anyone who wanted help. What he didn't do well, he was more than willing to learn. he was also willing to cut a break for people who knew what they were doing, and even approach hs distributors for a deal for people.

Unfortunately for him, he was too willing to give a discount, even when it was to his detriment, and he just didn't make the money he could have. Also, he left someone else in charge of doing some installs for him in the winter, and didn't check in every day. That person just decded to stop doing anything, and didn't show up, so he got nasty letters and phone calls from people who had prepaid for starter/alarm installs, etc. who showed up for the install and found the door locked and the shop seemingly abandoned.


----------



## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

DWVW: I think you could probly guess who I'm talking about.


----------



## restorick (May 22, 2008)

arrivalanche said:


> Its just really killing the industry. I personally after 10 years have said "F it!" and got out of car audio and am back in college. It sucks that I have to quit something I love bc people are cheep.


Sounds to me like your business model doesn't work, not the industry. Perhaps if you carried brands that were not available online you wouldn't have this issue.

I guess I compare it to building custom furniture, but you use generic components you can buy anywhere. It just ain't custom anymore, is it...



> The only thing keeping our area alive is its a rich area where most people are driving porshces and aston martins. even at that its still hard. I just want to find all those guys selling product sideways online and kick each and everyone of them in the balls.


You know, before you go blaming everyone else for your troubles, you really should take a look at your business model - especially how you go to market and what your shop looks like. Believe me, if someone's driving an Aston Martin, they ain't going online to buy components. But if they don't you, your work, or they don't like how your shop looks, they ain't buying from you either...



> I get a kick out of people bringing in their failed product that they bought online and asking us to send it im bc we are a authorized dealer. Good luck with that. Not only do most companies not take it but the ones who do charge you damn near the price of the amp to fix it as a punishment.


That's a pretty poor attitude. If you sign on to be an authorized dealer, you should take the good and the bad. You can always switch brand loyalty - find some products that you can get behind and make some money with.

Hang in there - your area isn't surviving because of the rich folk who drive ritzy cars - your area survives because of small business like yours.

Good luck...
Rick


----------



## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

dwvw said:


> Here's the thing Juan, the manufacturers ARE SUPPORTING THE BIG BOXES, they pay them good money in co-op advertising, prime display spots, etc.


If shops could put together marketing plans that sell stuff or build branding for the manufacturers, they could get money too. b Considering how many shops are TERRIBLE at marketing, it doesn't surprise me that they complain about it. And "give me $1000 so I can throw a car show" doesn't constitute a marketing plan, that's just an idea (and probably not a good one at that). To me, the playing field is pretty level. There is nothing keeping anyone from asking for Co-op dollars just like the big boxes get except for themselves. 

At the end of the day, anything that builds awareness to the car audio industry is good, even if its the Sunday paper Best Buy flier, or the Crutchfield catalog.

Now, if I was going to complain, it wouldn't be about advertising funds..... It would be about extra deep deals that allows for free install and other goodies the little guy can't get. Or them getting product allocated to them even when others ordered first.

Juan


----------



## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

arrivalanche said:


> and about the high end, few shops even have x brand's top-top end equipment. they just cant afford to stock it for people that wont buy it anyways and then it becomes used not to mention old where the vendor wont take it back.


'tis a point....manufacturers sure arent potato chip or hostess cake vendors that'll come and replenish their dear dealers demo or discontinued gear......heck they'll charge a poor B&M full nut for something the very day before their new replacements are released.


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

unfortuantely i myself have seen this kind of stuff all too often, either when i have to fix and redo another install or when i visit shops as a rep...some of the stuff i seen truly horrifies me, i have no idea how someone can let sometihng that is so badly put togehter out of their door, hell i myself get super annoyed and redo entire panels if anyhting is more than 1/8" off...

another story that stuck in my head was when i was visiting dealers, and came upon a shop, talked to the owner who claimed he was also the installer, showed him the catalogue, points to the passive xover modules on the nobelium set, and asks, "what are these", i said, "crossovers" he looks a bit confused and says, "why do you need those, the headunits and amps we sell come with them..." for once i was just completely dumbfounded and didnt know waht to say...

This may sound wrong, but i feel that a lot of it has to do with the social demographic and educational background many of these shops come from. Unlike other car related shops like mechanics garage, one really dont need to have any kind of training at all to open a stereo shop, and many shop owners are themselves not very well educated and a bit ignorant, and think themselves as much better installers than they really are...espeically when they start dealing with customers like the guys who typifies online forums, guys with a good education background, there is a certain amount of disconnect to start with, between the expectations of the customer and that of the shop guys. all this results in bad work, bad attitude and one really pissed off customer. On the flip side of a coin, in neighborhoods that are a bit depressed, such as where i used to be, there are hack shops turning out hack installs all day long and everyone loves them and goes to them...

but i think the danger here is over generalizing the BM shops as a whole entity. There are a LOT of excellent shops out there who do excellent work and treat customers with great amounts of respect. BUt the sad truth is, often people dont start off with these shops and instead go to hack shops, have a few bad experienecs, and then swear off BM shops all together. why is this? well, people price match, and go to the lowest bidder, if you got a custom intsall idea in mind, and one shop is quoting you 1000 in labor, the other 400, there is osmething majorly wrong with the onequoting you 400, i can almost gurantee it. i would say a full 90 percent of the hack installs i have seen or fixed, when talking to the customer how this all came about, they tell me, all the while shaking their head "i went for the cheap route, they quoted me by far the best prices and talked a good talk, and i went with them." I must have herad this type of comment a few HUNDRED times over the years...some people are okay with a hack job, but for most, the money you saved was nice, but the everytime you open the trunk or go inside your car, you see the horrible work, you hear hte bad sound, you remember the terrible attitude and scared of going back to the shop even when there is a problem still, and then on topof that the money you spend extra to have someone fix the install...it really adds up in the end both financially and emotionally. 

But thats not going to change is it? people will always have more expeirnces with the lowest bidding car audio shops...heck just this past year, i have had a guy who came to me with a G35, i quoted him a certain price, and he never answerd back, a few motnsh later he calls me and asks me to take a listen to his car cause it sounds weird, so he came back, and as luck have it, i ws just finishing up another G35 install, with somehwat similar deisgn i originally quoted him...needless to say, his install was major hackage, i dont even know hwere to start to describe it, i pulled some panels apart that was vinyl over CARDBOARD, and saw the amazon rainforest of wires back there, and didnt go any further, he had no midbass, one side's tweeter was either blown or not hooked up, and really, sound worse than stock...i poped off the panel i was building on the G, showed him the wiring, had him take a quick listen, and i saw regret written all over his face...but at that point, he was out of money to do anyhitng more. i asked him how much he saved by going there, about 400 bucks...

sad stories like this happens everyday...of course the hack shops shoudl take the blame, but also keep in mind how these hack shops get so many ucstomers in the first place.


----------



## filtor1 (Apr 24, 2008)

There isn't a "good" audio shop within a 2 hr drive from my city. I have had horrible experiences with the ones that are within that range. The B&M's did it to themselves IMHO.


----------



## ogahyellow (Apr 16, 2007)

I have not nearly as much experience as many of you guys, but basically what I have observed are the crap dealers who have everything from the low lines of pyle, MA, lanzar, and maybe some pioneer gear. These are the guys who install "2kW" sysyems for friends and teammates, with 2 12" and they can't fathom why my 600 W could sound louder and better. 

I'm getting side tracked here. What made me want to post was about the Pioneer comps in the hot buy section. I called a local dealer to see if they had them, they said no, wait until later in the week. So I called later and they were in, so I went to go demo them. When I came into the store there were 3 workers there and they just looked at me. No greeting, no nothing. I ask for help, they point me to the room and that's it. 

I'm ok with that I guess, I mean I'm young and black, which means I generally get ****ty service. Whatever. I go to the counter and have to wait for the guy to get off the phone to acknowledge me. I inquired about the price, silly me I should have just asked before I came, he quotes MSRP @ $220. I almost laughed. I didn't believe anyone did MSRP anymore--especially in electronics. 

I told the guy I am trying to buy local and do my part. I can get these online for $110 shipped, I'm not asking you to match it. What's the best you can do? He tells me $200. I still would have to pay sales tax on that. I told them thank you and left. 

I'm sorry. I tried to do my part. But I can't pay double, if I wanted to, I would buy groceries at Whole foods and car parts from the Dealership.

edit:
All that being said, I really wanted to support local retail. I try to stay out of wal-mart and use the internet for research rather than buying. But at some point you gotta sell me something. If you are charging double then it should be for a reason. Tell me what the reason is. If you did your job, I'll put a few more pennies in the bank to buy from you rather than the cheaper options. Show me value, I show you cash.


----------



## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

89grand said:


> ...Those and other stories just like it turned me off from B&M shops all together, *I don't need to deal with them and I won't*.


Excellent point which is my exact thought about the original topic.


----------



## br85 (May 2, 2008)

I'll tell you guys that here in Australia, the problem is even worse for consumers. This is how the US markup chain goes:

Manufacturer>Distributor>Shop>Consumer

In Australia we get this:

Manufacturer>US or other foreign Distributor>Australian Distributor>Shop>Consumer.

FOUR stages of markup, which is disgusting. My setup is about $6900AUD RRP over here. I imported mine from US bargain shops with insane freight, import duty, and 10% goods and services tax for $3100AUD when all is said and done.

When I first went to an installer to get a quote, they wouldn't even book me in because i didn't buy any gear from them. W/E, they lost my business.

The next shop I went to had a COMPLETELY different attitude. When I told them what I bought, and how much I got it for, their eyes popped out and they didn't believe me ("Dude WE pay more for that stuff"), until I produced the working products and the invoices. These lovely people at autobarn FULLY understood my reasoning for buying online at this time, and still gave me an excellent install at a decent price. These guys are gonna stay in business, because they aren completely consumer driven.

So here are my reasons for buying online.

1. Price. I got my gear for less than 50% RRP and still got warranties (at least 15% of the total amount I paid was shipping and tax/duty too!!!). Having to deal with only 2 stages of markup instead of 4 really helps. Whoever prevents australian dealers from buying from manufacturers can die in a fire for ruining any modest income earner the chance to have a good car stereo bought from the shops.

2. Brand choice. Even though the shops offer a great discount for buying the whole kit through them with install, not only would it still be more expensive, but there is NO shop here that I can buy JL, Polk, and pioneer from. So until one shop can get all the brands I want, this just doesn't work.

3. Product availability. It has been mentioned about internet only brands elsewhere, but the JL 300/2 (and many other products) doesn't even EXIST in Australia, what am I supposed to do there?

You wanted a why, there's my why.

And I'm SO glad I found a shop that sympathizes with me. They have made a believer out of me that not ALL shops are a bunch of whiners complaining about the way things are.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Ok, I skimmed through the first 4 pages and got the general idea of what this thread is all about. I work for both an industry vendor, and a mom and pop shop (part time). I've also worked for a "high end specialty chain". So I have some experience in this, but also, I realize that i'm not the average consumer, and actually, I beleive 75% of the people on this forum are not the average consumer. 

First thing I want to clear up as far as misconceptions. Retailers do not get anything close to 100% markup when they sell at retail. Retailers see 30% on average, and 40% on the high side. 

Second misconception. I saw someone post that because they saw it on ebay for $300, that shops must pay less than that. This couldn't be further from the truth. I've seen on many occaisions, products being sold on ebay for below dealer cost. Many of you will ask "How?". It's simple, there are really 3 ways this is happening:

1. The item is refurbished, and packaged to look like new. I've seen JL amps with B stock serial#'s, or no serial # brought in as new A-stock product. The customer will always swear till the end that it is brand new, and has a warranty. The online retailer told him so after all, so it has to be true. (Customers are still under the impression that all online retailers have to operate to the standards that big box/brick and mortar stores do, they don't) 

2. The item is a knock off. I've seen Focal drivers that were purchased for half of cost. The serial # was a sticker, and not engraved. The phase plug fell out of the center of the driver as soon as it was unpacked. After repairing the phase plug, and installing the speakers. They lasted about a week before having a rattle in them which turned out to be a piece of metal from what I can only assume was the basket rubbing the voice coil. The customer attempted to have the online store warranty them with no luck. 

3. Transshipping. Transshipping has no negatives for the average consumer other than the loss of warranty. This is the best case scenario for most discounted online products (there are vendors online that are dealers, but they usually sell close to retail, maybe 5-10% less). These retailers sometimes end up with close out product, repacks, or best case scenario. Retailer A buys 500 of a product to get the better "mass quantity" discount, and then sells 250 of them to retailer B. This is the best that most online customers can hope for. The product is like new, but has a lower price at the expense of your warranty coverage. Unless you buy from an authorized online retailer, this is the best you can hope for. 


The problem with all of these is that there's usually no way to tell which one of these catagories your online product falls under. Some people get lucky. Others get burned and blame the manufacturer, not the online seller. 


I know there are alot of shops that don't add any benefit other than the assurance that you are getting A stock product, but there are also alot that do. The shop I work for does take pride in it's work. We warranty our jobs, and our product. Even our custom fiberglass work has a lifetime warranty, which I don't know of any other shops that can claim that. 

The point here is that consumers do have some choices, and can find a good shop if they look. My recomendations are to ask to see pictures of the shops work. We have a slide show rolling on a 45" LCD montior. We also have photo books. We're heavily involved in the show scene, and so are alot of our customers. We don't advertise alot, so we work off of word of mouth. There is almost always a customer in the store, or around the store with a good experience to share with another customer. When you are shopping, ask other customers in the store if they've shopped there before. Ask to talk to the installer and see if they are concerned with your needs and what you want. You could even take the time and call the manufacturer and see what shops they recomend. Attend some local shows and ask who did the work you think looks/sounds good. 


At any rate, alot of us are DIY guys, and there is nothing wrong with that. There is also nothing wrong with purchasing online, as long as you know what you are getting into, and you are not fooling yourself into thinking that it is risk free. If you choose online, do your homework first and find out if anyone else has purchased there, and what their experience was if they had a problem. An educated consumer is less likely to be taken advantage of.

Also, I'd like to add, if an online retailer could get more than he's charging, don't you think he would up his price? If the online seller wasn't cheaper than the B&M store, what other reason would you have to buy from them. Online buyers are solely motivated by price.


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

96dak said:


> a B&M, they are buying it legally from alpine just the same as i am.


Careful with words such as "legal." There is, of course, no violation of the law in purchasing something from a source in the stream of commerce. Stolen or counterfeit goods are "illegal." Everything else, certainly including car-fi parts that were neither stolen nor faked, is fully legal.



OldOneEye said:


> And I agree, too many people think they are the average user. Computer guys are the same way "oh, that's easy just go in and change your config file"..... WTF? Ditto here. Time and time again, you see guys go "uh, I went to this shop and the guy behind the counter didn't know who Elemental Design was (using them as an example, since they have pretty good penetration in lots of the forums), man those guys don't know crap".


Fair point, but it also obscures the real knowledge deficit that causes some of us (well, me at least) to wonder why they even bother. They just don't know or care to know about the massive advances in the general state of audio over the last decade. Basic (and often free/easy to use) tools such as box modeling programs are absent. (One shop even told me that they don't need it, because the manufacturer will tell them what sized box to use.) And forget about anything has basic in 2008 as a decent MLS measurement program and calibrated mic. So shops generally lack the basic knowledge and capacity required for truly high end sonic fidelity in the modern world. The best analogy I can think of is that the typical car-fi shop is about as backwards as a car repair shop that works on moderns but doesn't even see fit to spend a few bucks on an OBD-II code reader.

Add to that the generally abysmal price-performance ratio (and price-ignored performance!) of most of even the "high end" car-fi products, and as others have mentioned the massive general improvement in OEM sound systems over this past decade (thanks to the IT advances that have allowed carmakers to eke out far superior performance at equal or less cost), and is it any wonder that serious enthusiasts and car-fi shops are more often than not at odds with one another today?



arrivalanche said:


> Yes the internet. You think that its all well and good to buy a JL amp from some online store, but if you knew how they got that equipment you would know that its illegal for some brands to be sold like that


You people keep throwing out the word "illegal." Please cite me a relevant statute and/or on-point case law to support that allegation, or shut up. 

Otherwise, the technical term (and, I might add, cause of action in some cases) for falsely accusing someone of engaging in an unlawful act in print is *libel,* and you'd be advised to renounce and apologize for your claims at once.



arrivalanche said:


> Also what is the awesome idea that you have for shops to adapt to the new market? The only somewhat thing Ive seen is adding on home audio. Dont get me wrong, I do know that shops MUST adapt, but they shouldnt have to completely give up on what they are just to keep their heads above water.


Well, it seems obvious that the skills required to do car audio properly - ability to take and interpret reliable audio measurements, computer aided design skills, fabrication skills - are the exact same skillset required for custom home theater work, so that's an obvious tie-in.

While it might not make sense as a business except for in very large and wealthy urban areas, I guess my conception of a car-fi shop that would actually be worth a damn, that is to say actually provide meaningful value added to consumers, would be one that focuses on doing the subtle stuff right, such as taking detailed measurements of a vehicle and developing bespoke speaker/DSP packages designed to best fit the tastes of the customer and the acoustic space. 

They can sell equipment or not, but that should be the secondary source of revenue rather than the primary one, because speakers aside it's all commodity parts anyway. There's no reason for a shop to turn away real value added work (install labor) just because someone didn't buy a given part there. Consider tailoring shops. Every bespoke tailoring atelier of which I know - including the Savile Row elite such as Huntsman, Kilgours, and Anderson & Sheppard - is happy to do what's called a "CMT" in the field. (Cut, Make, Trim: basically, a suit, jacket, trousers, shirt, etc. made with the customers' own fabric.) Sure, they would prefer to sell you the cloth they have in stock, they generally charge extra fees for CMT work, and if it's a clearly inferior fabric or a forgery my hunch is they'd probably reject it. But they certainly won't say: "you didn't buy that Lesser/Carlo Barbera/Loro Piana/whatever fabric from an authorized source, so go to hell." Why should some car audio shop think they're on a higher pedestal than the best tailors in the world?


----------



## trainman0978 (Apr 2, 2008)

Simplicity in sound said :

" This may sound wrong, but i feel that a lot of it has to do with the social demographic and educational background many of these shops come from. Unlike other car related shops like mechanics garage, one really dont need to have any kind of training at all to open a stereo shop, and many shop owners are themselves not very well educated and a bit ignorant, and think themselves as much better installers than they really are...espeically when they start dealing with customers like the guys who typifies online forums, guys with a good education background, there is a certain amount of disconnect to start with, between the expectations of the customer and that of the shop guys. all this results in bad work, bad attitude and one really pissed off customer. On the flip side of a coin, in neighborhoods that are a bit depressed, such as where i used to be, there are hack shops turning out hack installs all day long and everyone loves them and goes to them..."


Pretty much what I was saying. These shops need to have required manufacturer training. And not just MECP or whatever best buy uses. The aftermarket companies need to require the shops to send the employees to their training seminars or schools. I would certainly be quicker to shell out the money for B&M prices if that were the case. 

If a shop can prove to me, based on past experience and comparing what my money and my labor gets me online, that I will , in fact, benefit from the high price tag- I will keep using paypal.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> There's no reason for a shop to turn away real value added work (install labor) just because someone didn't buy a given part there. Consider tailoring shops. Every bespoke tailoring atelier of which I know - including the Savile Row elite such as Huntsman, Kilgours, and Anderson & Sheppard - is happy to do what's called a "CMT" in the field. (Cut, Make, Trim: basically, a suit, jacket, trousers, shirt, etc. made with the customers' own fabric.) Sure, they would prefer to sell you the cloth they have in stock, they generally charge extra fees for CMT work, and if it's a clearly inferior fabric or a forgery my hunch is they'd probably reject it. But they certainly won't say: "you didn't buy that Lesser/Carlo Barbera/Loro Piana/whatever fabric from an authorized source, so go to hell." Why should some car audio shop think they're on a higher pedestal than the best tailors in the world?


I don't think it's that they're on a higher pedestal. Consider this, if the shop sells the product and does the install, they make profit in both places, and this is the name of the game. Make enough profit to pay their employee's and pay the overhead on the shop, maybe take a paycheck home for themselves.

Would you bring a steak to K.C. Prime steakhouse and expect them to cook it? No, they provide the steak, and the service, and this is how they stay in business. If they just cooked the steak, they'd probably have to charge double on their service end, and then it would work out the same as if you just purchased the steak and service from the restaurant. 

Also, what happens when the customer has an issue with the product? They go back to the store, and shop "owns the problem". They won't be calling the company that sold the product first, that's not as convenient as calling on the shop again. Funny how convenience is important when you have a problem, but not when you are making the purchase. 
On top of all this, if the shop is performing an install on a product they didn't sell, and a customer comes in to buy one of their products, only to be told "Sorry, we're booked till next week", they now lose that sale and the install $ from it. They end up stuck making install $ only, and lose out on the sales side of it. 

I assure you that no shop will stay in business long if they don't sell product as well as perform install. That's why they generally treat it more like a BYOB restaurant. If you're bringing a piece of gear you can't get from them, but you're getting gear from them as well, they are more likely to take the job. IMO It's good business sense to do this, and will help them keep their labor and product pricing competitive in the long run.


*edit. Also, there is nothing wrong with cooking your steak at home. Some people are good cooks, some want to save on the steak, but every once in a while, you realize that KC prime does something different than the at home experience.


----------



## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

Why don't shops just have a non liablility contract when working on a customers car if they bring in their own gear?


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

beerdrnkr said:


> Why don't shops just have a non liablility contract when working on a customers car if they bring in their own gear?


Because it doesn't hold up, and on top of that, what does a non liability contract do when the original customer doesn't understand and badmouths you to 10 other customers that you wouldn't/couldn't help them?


----------



## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Because it doesn't hold up, and on top of that, what does a non liability contract do when the original customer doesn't understand and badmouths you to 10 other customers that you wouldn't/couldn't help them?


True....I would love to open up a shop and I think I could actually make it successful by only selling products that you can't find on ebay and whatnot, like sundown, mach 5, hybrid, incriminator, and so on. I would have a huge demo room where you can test out almost every product there (this would atleast bring people in), maybe offer home audio products and installation, and hire people who know what they're doing...Anyone else want to invest with me  I went to school for entrepreneurship and I'm trying to figure out what type of business I'd like to open and come up with a good business plan for it. Car audio is a scary business to get into though. Although it's something I really enjoy


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> I don't think it's that they're on a higher pedestal. Consider this, if the shop sells the product and does the install, they make profit in both places, and this is the name of the game. Make enough profit to pay their employee's and pay the overhead on the shop, maybe take a paycheck home for themselves.


But if they only sell overpriced crap (which is pretty much all the car-fi industry offers) they won't make many sales, either. It's a catch-22, I suppose.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Would you bring a steak to K.C. Prime steakhouse and expect them to cook it? No, they provide the steak, and the service, and this is how they stay in business.


Well, there's a rather obvious difference between a high-end steakhouse and a purveyor of commodity parts, but nonetheless...

I don't know about that steakhouse, as I've never been there. But I went to a high-end restaurant in Atlanta with some friends to celebrating the engagement of two of our friends last week (the Spice Market, which is in the new midtown W hotel). The to-be-weds wanted the same bottle of wine they shared on their first date. I don't know if it was any good or not, as I don't drink, but it wasn't available there. So they brought it. The restaurant was happy to oblige, charging a corking fee for the use of their sommelier's services and their crystal, etc. So even in the restaurant industry there's some give and take.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Also, what happens when the customer has an issue with the product? They go back to the store, and shop "owns the problem". They won't be calling the company that sold the product first, that's not as convenient as calling on the shop again. Funny how convenience is important when you have a problem, but not when you are making the purchase.


Well, there are certainly circumstances that _warrant_ calling the shop first. For instance, you take an amp out of a car in which it worked just fine and pay someone to put it in your new one, but now all of a sudden it's intermittent.

You people like to think that it's all the equipment's fault, but in fact for the most part from what I've seen, when things fail they do so because some aspect of the install was negligently performed. If it works in the install bay and fails shortly thereafter without the customer doing something dumb, _the install probably did it!_ (At least electronics. Speakers are a different issue, sometimes.) So trying to shirk responsibility will win no friends.



WRX/Z28 said:


> On top of all this, if the shop is performing an install on a product they didn't sell, and a customer comes in to buy one of their products, only to be told "Sorry, we're booked till next week", they now lose that sale and the install $ from it. They end up stuck making install $ only, and lose out on the sales side of it.


Nobody said a business couldn't prioritize its more profitable or regular customers. So long as everyone involved (including the person to be bumped) knows that on the front end, it shouldn't be an issue. Now, bumping somebody without such an understanding, that's a different story.



WRX/Z28 said:


> I assure you that no shop will stay in business long if they don't sell product as well as perform install.


I don't doubt that, but the products are basically commodities and it's skill that's worth paying for.



WRX/Z28 said:


> *edit. Also, there is nothing wrong with cooking your steak at home. Some people are good cooks, some want to save on the steak, but every once in a while, you realize that KC prime does something different than the at home experience.


I've eaten in many of the best steakhouses in the world, including Trattoria Sostanza in Florence, La Chacra and La Cabaa in BA, Boston Public in Louis Boston, Peter Luger in NYC, Capital Grille in DC, Le Severo in Paris, and so on. All of them were wonderful. None of them could touch my late father's sauteed lamb shoulder.


----------



## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Theres a satisfaction in doing something yourself....and doing it VERY well.

Some people have this mentality that they can't do certain things as well as a pro can and good enough is all that should be expected.

I call that half assing things.

I despise that attitude and it drives me to learn as many new things as I can every day.


----------



## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

If a shop is honest and does good work then I will support it by buying products in addition to services, even if I am paying a little more for the products. However, it is very hard to find a good shop, and if you've had an experience at a bad shop, it makes you that much more reluctant to trust a shop.

One of shops in Dallas that I dealt with, they would match any price offered by an authorized dealer on the internet. I thought that was fair. And those guys went the extra mile and fixed problems that they had not created. On the other hand, I recently got totally ripped off by a shop in Austin and it makes it very hard to go to another shop when I don't know their reputation.

I think most people don't mind supporting local if the price discrepancy isn't too big, but when there are huge disparities in prices, then people want to save money so they will go the cheaper route.

Many previous posters have talked about the internet creating a paradigm shift. Its not just with new equipment, its the used market, on ebay and craigslist that has made a big difference too. Before, those deals were advertised only in the local paper or at a local car club. With ebay, anyone can see and bid on it so there is a lot more used equipment being resold than in the past.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> But if they only sell overpriced crap (which is pretty much all the car-fi industry offers) they won't make many sales, either. It's a catch-22, I suppose.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know that i'd call Focal, Tru, Kenwood, Eclipse, MTX, JL, Alpine ETC... overpriced crap. I'm really not sure how they become crap when you buy them in the store, but they're great when you buy them online. How do you determine that they are overpriced? What's the criteria? 

I would not call my shop, or a few others I know of "purveyor of commodity parts" but in the same token, I could say that KC Prime is. I can get a steak at Fridays for half the price. Why should I go to KC prime? They're overpriced crap IMO. 

If you went to that same restaurant in atlanta, and brought in a lb of ground chuck and asked them to make it taste good, would they do it? 

Your beleifs on gear being faultless, and install causing all issues only proves my point further. You would be the customer with the blown amp, or melted voice coil, swearing up and down that it had to do with how it was connected to the battery. I've rarely had equipment have "install issues" when being used responsibly. I have had many pieces of defective gear in my 15 years in the industry, I would say 4 out of 10 times, the product was defective. 5 out of 10 the product was abused (ala clockwise 360 degree turn of the volume control.) 1 out of 10 was installation related. Of the install related problems, we warrantied it (because the product was purchased from us), and corrected the issue. Nobody is perfect, not even the DIY guys. Anyone can make an installation mistake. If it's all in house, we can take care of it with no lost $ on either end. 

You say skill is worth paying for, but how about skill with products the installers are familiar with? Why should the shop provide their install services, when you only paid for half of what the shop does? Why do they not deserve 100% of your business if they provide 100% of the valuable service? 

I've eaten at many fine restaurants myself living halfway between Philly and NYC. I also make an amazing Tequila Lime Chicken, but sometimes I realize that I don't feel like cooking, and someone else has more expertise with the dish I want. If I don't want to do the work of cooking, I go to the restaurant, and order off the menu. I don't complain to the waiter that the price of his steak is ridiculous because the steak is a commodity (Hell, I could practically buy a cow for what a steak dinner for two costs in some places) , and I only wanted the cooking expertise. I think I would be looked at like I was an *******... pardon my french. 


I understand DIY guys. I understand doing everything yourself and saving money. I don't understand wanting it done for you, and only wanting to pay the same as someone doing it themselves.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

snaimpally said:


> If a shop is honest and does good work then I will support it by buying products in addition to services, even if I am paying a little more for the products. However, it is very hard to find a good shop, and if you've had an experience at a bad shop, it makes you that much more reluctant to trust a shop.
> 
> One of shops in Dallas that I dealt with, they would match any price offered by an authorized dealer on the internet. I thought that was fair. And those guys went the extra mile and fixed problems that they had not created. On the other hand, I recently got totally ripped off by a shop in Austin and it makes it very hard to go to another shop when I don't know their reputation.
> 
> ...


If you had a terible experience at Fridays, would you never go to Houlihans for dinner, and instead choose to cook at home only?


----------



## SublimeZ (Jan 28, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> If you had a terible experience at Fridays, would you never go to Houlihans for dinner, and instead choose to cook at home only?


Food is a bad analogy, it's a life neccessity. Car audio is not. Also, the price points are vastly different.
That being said, I rarely eat out.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

SublimeZ said:


> Food is a bad analogy, it's a life neccessity. Car audio is not. Also, the price points are vastly different.
> That being said, I rarely eat out.


I think dining out is a teriffic analogy. Noone "needs" to eat out. People choose to. It's also a venue that has vastly different service depending on where you go. You also do not "need" steak. Some choose it because they like it.


----------



## SublimeZ (Jan 28, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> I think dining out is a teriffic analogy. Noone "needs" to eat out. People choose to. It's also a venue that has vastly different service depending on where you go. You also do not "need" steak. Some choose it because they like it.


Ok, so we should never cook at home, cause we're not professionals. We can't be trusted to buy and prepare our own. We should only go to high priced eating establishments and take our chances with the cook de jour? 

If I go to a resturaunt and get a bad meal, I'm only out a few bucks (if it isn't comped) If I go to a shop and get a bad install, I'm out much more & have to do it myself anyway. 
Sorry, the less I spend for labor, the more I have for gear.The better deal I get means better equipment


----------



## cheesehead (Mar 20, 2007)

GlasSman said:


> Theres a satisfaction in doing something yourself....and doing it VERY well.
> 
> Some people have this mentality that they can't do certain things as well as a pro can and good enough is all that should be expected.
> 
> ...


I feel ya on this one. I despise the terms "I can't" or "It's good enough". You won't know if you can do something unless you try. And it's never "good enough" if you could have done better!


----------



## numbskull (Jul 4, 2008)

br85 said:


> I'll tell you guys that here in Australia, the problem is even worse for consumers. This is how the US markup chain goes:
> 
> Manufacturer>Distributor>Shop>Consumer
> 
> ...


i don't blame you for not voicing your opinions on this forum http://www.mobileelectronics.com.au/forums/index.php?showtopic=541695&st=0.
fark that place is full of dumbasses, it's like banging one's head against the preverbial brick one.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

SublimeZ said:


> Ok, so we should never cook at home, cause we're not professionals. We can't be trusted to buy and prepare our own. We should only go to high priced eating establishments and take our chances with the cook de jour?
> 
> If I go to a resturaunt and get a bad meal, I'm only out a few bucks (if it isn't comped) If I go to a shop and get a bad install, I'm out much more & have to do it myself anyway.
> Sorry, the less I spend for labor, the more I have for gear.The better deal I get means better equipment


Eh, please re-read my posts before responding. Where did I say you can't cook your own food? In fact, I said the opposite. I said there is nothing wrong with cooking yourself, or DIY installs. The only problem is when you want to pay DIY prices for Pro install. Find a good shop by scanning the car shows for SQ cars. Ask where they got their work done, if they liked it, and what they liked about the shop. 

I don't know what restaurant you are talking about, but even going to Friday's is gonna run you $40 to eat/drink/tip, minimum for 2 people. If you go to a mid level retaurant, you're looking at easily $80-100. 

Also, what to you constitute's a bad install? I keep hearing people saying they had a bad installation, but noone is ever specific about what problems they had. The only person I saw posting any details, said that they ran his 4 guage through a rubber boot instead of making a new hole. Does this constitute a bad install? 

BTW no appologies necessary, I never said you "have to pay for install" or "can't be trusted to do it yourself" these weren't in any of my posts, maybe they are your gut feeling on doing it yourself.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

The old saying goes like this..."If you want something done right, Do it yourself"


----------



## SublimeZ (Jan 28, 2008)

WRX/Z28- please pardon me if I misunderstood your post.(it was 3am:blush
The only time I've gone to a shop, insurance was paying. Supposedly the best shop in Austin. They wired my 4 channel MTX 2ohm stereo and bridged. (contrary to what I asked) It thermaled after about 25 minutes. To me, this meant I had to rewire and inspect everything. They hit the insurance for over $750 labor on a deck 4 speakers and an amp, all in stock locations. 
I'm picky about who works on my car. This incident just reinforced that.


----------



## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

beerdrnkr said:


> I spent $1200 on my last install and when it all went wrong I tore out EVERYTHING and discovered: They didn't put the baffles in the front and rear doors, they used about 5sq/ft of my raammat and none of the ensolite, 2 of the screw holes on one of my rear coax speakers were broken so literally the speaker was dangling 1/2 way out of the door, box wasn't built like I wanted it, they used a lot of my old wiring and used factory speaker wiring even though I paid for all new wiring to be ran, instead of running a longer 1/0 gauge cable from the front bat to the rear bat they used the same one already installed to a distro and from the distro had a 4gauge cable to my rear bat and finally another 4gauge from the rear bat to my sub amp, gave me a bad RCA cable, and finally blew my CAL 25 tweeters and said they wouldn't buy me new one's because component speakers aren't meant to be ran active....Even though I told them I would tune them and to turn down ALL the amp gains and not to have any volume up on the HU. The only thing they did decent was my kick panels. I'm currently installing my new system myself and doing a lot better and it's my first full install....Their hack job took almost 2 weeks and everytime I had to take it back in for something I noticed was wrong they would take it for 1 or 2 days and half ass doing it right. Just thinking about it pisses me off. Sorry for the rant.





WRX/Z28 said:


> Eh, please re-read my posts before responding. Where did I say you can't cook your own food? In fact, I said the opposite. I said there is nothing wrong with cooking yourself, or DIY installs. The only problem is when you want to pay DIY prices for Pro install. Find a good shop by scanning the car shows for SQ cars. Ask where they got their work done, if they liked it, and what they liked about the shop.
> 
> I don't know what restaurant you are talking about, but even going to Friday's is gonna run you $40 to eat/drink/tip, minimum for 2 people. If you go to a mid level retaurant, you're looking at easily $80-100.
> 
> ...


There ya go. There was a few other things they did wrong as well.


----------



## briansz (Feb 5, 2008)

ogahyellow said:


> But at some point you gotta sell me something. If you are charging double then it should be for a reason. Tell me what the reason is. If you did your job, I'll put a few more pennies in the bank to buy from you rather than the cheaper options. Show me value, I show you cash.



Well put.

I went out last night looking for a 10" speaker grill. The last time I looked for a grill in town, it was for a 15" Cerwin Vega 154, and I found out that nobody carries 15" grills, and for that matter, nobody carries 15's anymore.

So I go to Circuit Sh*tty and look at the Kicker grills. Just one problem, they are $5.83 on the company website and $29.99 on the shelf. And they are more hole than grill. I'm putting this on an Alumapro in a test box, I don't care what it looks like, I don't want dents in my cone. Nix that.

Up the street to Ultimate Electronics. 3 people later (to find out if they sell speaker grills) I talk to a person that tells me they 'usually buy those from Car Toys' (the local boutique competitor).

By this time it's too late to go any further.

I don't go to B&M stores because it's simply so difficult for me to find anything to spend my money on at a halfway reasonable price. Clearance and open box are _not_ 10% off MSRP. Let's try 40-60% off MSRP.

If I need something today, I at least want it to be there and I can make a decision if I want to pay the upcharge for the convenience. But so many times, I don't even get that chance because even the Big Boxes don't stock squat. 

If you can order it, so can I, at half the price. No stock = no sale. And another internet transaction takes place.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Maybe it's just my area then. We have a bunch of shops in the area that I know do good work. I'd say we are at the top of the heap, and that it's very important to us that we maintain a good customer image. We understand we work on word of mouth, and we also understand that the way to earn repeat business, is to satisfy the customers expectations.

I hear some of these same horror stories coming from people that go to another shop up the street. I don't feel the least bit bad for most of the customers that go there. The people that end up there are generally the same ones that go to every shop in the area asking "how much for" and then settle on the cheapest. It's evident when you walk in the place that noone there has a clue beyond basic install skills. If you asked for any examples of their work, or talked to anyone that had been there, you'd know to steer clear. I can't imagine that it's any different anywhere else.


----------



## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

DS-21,
If we are going to be talking about legality, Polk Audio went after Crazy Eddies I believe (and won) because CE was interfering with a contract (between Polk Audio and the dealer that was supplying them). Polk Audio did win. Now if its a matter of criminal or civil I don't know all the details.

So I agree, people should not use "illegal" with items that are being sourced in a way that violates a legal contract between a manufacturer and a dealer (which if a manufacturer decided to sue (and keep in mind, at that point probably lots of unpleasant stuff would come out in discovery) they would probably win.

People don't go to jail for buying transhipped product.

Juan


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> I don't know that i'd call Focal, Tru, Kenwood, Eclipse, MTX, JL, Alpine ETC... overpriced crap.


Focal and Tru are certainly extremely overpriced and underwhelming. The others offer some commodity parts and some interesting stuff as well.



WRX/Z28 said:


> I'm really not sure how they become crap when you buy them in the store, but they're great when you buy them online. How do you determine that they are overpriced? What's the criteria?


What makes you think I'm talking about buying any car-fi marketed stuff online. I'm talking about buying _better_ stuff, and often paying less for it. 

And what makes something overpriced? Well, one answer is that the price the market sets is lower than the price one expects to fetch. Another is a generally abysmal level of performance regardless of cost (especially in speakers and subwoofers) compared to easily obtainable alternatives.



WRX/Z28 said:


> I would not call my shop, or a few others I know of "purveyor of commodity parts" but in the same token, I could say that KC Prime is. I can get a steak at Fridays for half the price. Why should I go to KC prime? They're overpriced crap IMO.


A good steak tastes way different from a mediocre steak. A $1000 competent amp or digital source sounds _exactly the same_ as a $100 competent amp or digital source which sounds exactly the same as a $50,000 one. So those components are just commodity parts.



WRX/Z28 said:


> If you went to that same restaurant in atlanta, and brought in a lb of ground chuck and asked them to make it taste good, would they do it?


No more than I'd expect you to make an amp out of a blank circuit board and some MOSFETs. But raw materials are, as you must know, quite different from finished products.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Your beleifs on gear being faultless, and install causing all issues only proves my point further. You would be the customer with the blown amp, or melted voice coil, swearing up and down that it had to do with how it was connected to the battery.


Well, if you had read my post, you would've seen the giant exception I carved out for speakers. 

In fact, I've never blown an amp, or melted a voice coil on any driver that wasn't a Jordan JX53, in ~15 years of doing DIY home and car audio. 

The fact of the matter is that solid state electronics either fail roughly right away, or they fail a while down the road. Anything else is error. And since there are few ways for an end user to mess up a source or an amp, one can often trace the issue to the installation.



WRX/Z28 said:


> 5 out of 10 the product was abused (ala clockwise 360 degree turn of the volume control.)


IOW, you failed to understand the customer's proclivities and set gains so as to prevent damage. Regardless of the source of the equipment, the first time that happens with a given customer, it should be on you to fix, because your shop failed that customer. Assuming said customer didn't fiddle with amp gains, etc.



WRX/Z28 said:


> 1 out of 10 was installation related. Of the install related problems, we warrantied it (because the product was purchased from us), and corrected the issue.


Are you saying that if you screw up (and I agree, anyone can and everyone has at some point) but the equipment was the customer's, you're going to attempt to shirk responsibility. If I were said customer (which I wouldn't be) that would have you in court.



WRX/Z28 said:


> You say skill is worth paying for, but how about skill with products the installers are familiar with?


Irrelevant, because the products are the most part commodities, and any little wrinkles can be easily determined by anyone with the slightest inclination to human reasoning.

Moreover, I question what "skill" installers have about the products that aren't. Do you measure the individual T/S parameters of each subwoofer you sell and design a box accordingly, or do you read in some marketer's book what volume they recommend? Do you take out and measure component sets so that you have an idea of who supplies consistent-performing equipment? 



WRX/Z28 said:


> Why should the shop provide their install services, when you only paid for half of what the shop does? Why do they not deserve 100% of your business if they provide 100% of the valuable service?


Because one of the services (fabrication, measurement, etc.) has value, and the other (selecting between different commodity parts) is largely worthless.



WRX/Z28 said:


> I understand DIY guys. I understand doing everything yourself and saving money. I don't understand wanting it done for you, and only wanting to pay the same as someone doing it themselves.


Obviously, you don't. Saving money (from my perspective, at least) isn't a big part of it. The primary reason to DIY is that most installers, when it comes down to it, have yet to enter the modern age. They generally don't have test gear more sophisticated than an antique RTA. No MLS measurement gear, no driver measurement setups, no crossover design software, often not even a box modeling program. So there is a giant knowledge gap between the DIYMA-type and the typical car-fi shop. The second reason is that access to better gear. By not being limited to the overpriced mediocrities that the car-fi industry offers as speakers and subwoofers - with rule-proving exceptions such as the JBL W1xGTi sub line - one will get better sound. So any analogy to a steakhouse or whatever is really quite foolish, because a good restaurant (I'm not talking about some chain, but a real restaurant) certain has access to better raw materials (first choice seafood, steaks, local produce, etc., and the experience to know the difference at a glance) than a typical end user.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> Focal and Tru are certainly extremely overpriced and underwhelming. The others offer some commodity parts and some interesting stuff as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think you've made a single point that I don't 100% disagree with. 

I also don't know many (enthusiasts) that could say that the last TRU/Focal vehicle I heard was "underwhelming". 

Alot of shops local to me do generally use box modeling programs when necessary, but what makes you think that the manufacturer's recomendations are from a "Marketing book". Think the manufacturer has not done any testing, or provided T/S parameters? 

What easily available alternatives do you have? Let me guess, DIY drivers. So what you are saying is that DIY drivers always sound better than any prepackaged speaker set. I don't know how you can back up that claim any more than I could back up a claim to the opposite. I think that's mostly oppinion and not fact. 

Also, I would liken building amplifiers from raw parts more like Raising the cattle. The restaurant does not raise, feed, ship, carve up the cow. This comparable to most shops that do not "build the amplifier". 

I have never "Shirked responsibility" for anything, and I'd appreciate it if you would stop incinuating that I do. I simply stated that if we provided the gear, we could have it warrantied. If the customer brings it in, we can't. Barring any obvious blunder, I don't know how you could determine exact cause of product failure, so now who should be acountable for the damaged product. How many grey area's are there that make it nearly impossible to determine the exact cause of a failure, be it product, user, installer? Do you think the customer would accept it as product failure or user error if it obviously was? 90% of customers will not accept blame. I've yet to have a single failed product in any employee's car. I attribute this to the end user being knowledgeable enough to understand the limits of the equipment. 

DS-21, you are not the average consumer, you are a DIY guy like alot of us here. The average consumer a shop deals with is far less educated, far more likely to play with setting they don't understand, and far more likely to have a problem with their equipment that you or I.

Alot of shops can only gear towards the average consumer, but there are a few specialty shops that are capable of rising above the rest and doing it right. It doesn't sound like you will ever use any of them, you are above them all, and only you can satisfy your expectations. There is nothing wrong with that, and I can appreciate that you are knowledgeable enough to DIY every part of your setup. 

Bashing the average shop for performing a service for the regular guy to enthusiast, and stating that they are taking advantage of the consumer by charging retail, and refusing outside product is a bit off the mark. If everyone could/desired to do it themselves, they would. If you could have a succesful business of RTA'ing every car you worked on, using only diy drivers, spending hours calculating the perfect box, and trial an error testing gear for every customer, and make a profit at it. You would! You may do this for a few close friends, but I think you'd find that if you tried to do it for a customer like yourself, you would never be finacially successful.


----------



## BlackSapphire (Apr 16, 2008)

This thread reeks of personal vendetta. Today's economy requires that you morph or die. It's not the consumer's _fault_ that you can no longer do what you love. It's time for you to change the way you approach the whole deal - find a new niche, cater to what works 'today', not 10 yrs ago. Getting pissed at the very consumers that let you do 'what you love' for 10 yrs is not going to help. However, It was successful at creating an argument though.

By the way, Benny summed up my thoughts pretty well.


----------



## briansz (Feb 5, 2008)

At the risk of adding gasoline to this thread, I will say the following:

I began installing car audio in the late 80's. It was not a pretty or pain free process. In 1991 I went to Mobile Dynamics and became a certified installer. For the last three years, I have been a CAD drafter and machine programmer after better than ten years as a custom cabinetmaker.

The point here is that I've never earned a living as an installer, despite the fact that I was doing custom fiberglass work 17 years ago. True, disposable income today is not anything like what it was in 1991, electronic bang for the buck is much cheaper, and marketing/retail is over the top. I also moved from the northeast to the west. But regardless, my hat is off to those of you that make a go of it on a daily basis.

After saying the above, I will say that the only things I am willing to pay a professional installer for or see value in is their familiarity (even in an empirical way) with the transfer function of different vehicles and what works best as far as sub and component placement -or- with factory system integration that I am unfamiliar with and don't have time to investigate. That info, particularly regarding transfer function and placement, can only be compiled in an exhaustive database or in the head of a pro installer that sees a lot of cars on a regular basis. 

As to the rest, I work at a millwork facility with literally millions of dollars of CNC and other equipment, it's not your father's tablesaw. And I can fabricate/install as well or better as the professionals I've met. So for me, shops have an extremely limited role. I suspect the same is true for a lot of true enthusiasts and forum members.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

BlackSapphire said:


> This thread reeks of personal vendetta. Today's economy requires that you morph or die. It's not the consumer's _fault_ that you can no longer do what you love. It's time for you to change the way you approach the whole deal - find a new niche, cater to what works 'today', not 10 yrs ago. Getting pissed at the very consumers that let you do 'what you love' for 10 yrs is not going to help. However, It was successful at creating an argument though.
> 
> By the way, Benny summed up my thoughts pretty well.


 I largely agree. There are two things that are the customers fault though, buying solely on price, and then wondering why everything is made cheap and in china, and then being an uneducated buyer. Both contribute to why Wal-Mart is so successful, and why we live in a disposable society with dumps filled with chinese products. 

I've learned over the years that when I buy on price alone, I end up with the cheapest product, and that's not always a good thing. When I do my homework, and buy the product that performs, it's generally not the cheapest, but I rarely have to throw anything away. 

Shops definately need to change up their game, but consumers need to take some responsibility and seek out the shops that do, and stop hiding behind the blanket statement that "All shop's do crappy work, and overcharge" It's simply not true.


----------



## mokedaddy (Feb 26, 2007)

beerdrnkr said:


> True....I would love to open up a shop and I think I could actually make it successful by only selling products that you can't find on ebay and whatnot, like sundown, mach 5, hybrid, incriminator, and so on. I would have a huge demo room where you can test out almost every product there (this would atleast bring people in), maybe offer home audio products and installation, and *hire people who know what they're doing*...Anyone else want to invest with me  I went to school for entrepreneurship and I'm trying to figure out what type of business I'd like to open and come up with a good business plan for it. Car audio is a scary business to get into though. Although it's something I really enjoy


This is also a large part of the problem. Number one its tough to be in the business everyday and not get burnt out to new products and ideas after years. Not to mention, the money really isnt that good for the majority of people out there. Also I think there really are too many shops.


----------



## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> I largely agree. There are two things that are the customers fault though, buying solely on price, and then wondering why everything is made cheap and in china, and then being an uneducated buyer. Both contribute to why Wal-Mart is so successful, and why we live in a disposable society with dumps filled with chinese products.
> 
> I've learned over the years that when I buy on price alone, I end up with the cheapest product, and that's not always a good thing. When I do my homework, and buy the product that performs, it's generally not the cheapest, but I rarely have to throw anything away.
> 
> Shops definately need to change up their game, but consumers need to take some responsibility and seek out the shops that do, and stop hiding behind the blanket statement that "All shop's do crappy work, and overcharge" It's simply not true.



What you're not getting is that they're not buying the cheapest product... they are buying a quality product at a lower price than you are willing to offer.

don't ever complain about a customer spending their money wisely just because it's not going into your pocket. most of us are looking for value, not just the lowest price, if we felt that BM shops provided value, we'd shop there.

personally I find that BM shops are more a waste of time than of money.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Sassmastersq said:


> What you're not getting is that they're not buying the cheapest product... they are buying a quality product at a lower price than you are willing to offer.
> 
> don't ever complain about a customer spending their money wisely just because it's not going into your pocket. most of us are looking for value, not just the lowest price, if we felt that BM shops provided value, we'd shop there.
> 
> personally I find that BM shops are more a waste of time than of money.


You missed my point obviously... I'm not complaining, and who said it was a lower price than I would offer? Product for product, from an authorized seller, i've never been undersold on price. Again, the idea of value is a subjective term. I consider value to be the product that last's me the longest without costing me anything out of pocket. The minute an "internet" product breaks, value goes out the window, cause now you have a boat anchor, or a repair bill. 

I was actually responding to complaints that there are no good shops. There are plenty of good shops if you look, at least in the tri-state area there are. You need to re-read my posts, and those before mine. 

So you shop for everything online? Food, furniture, cars? You never buy anything from Target, Wal-Mart, Lowes, Home Depot? You buy everything on ebay, or online? Never bought in the store? Something doesn't add up here...

BTW, I've been to Kitchener, and worked on the Future Shop up there. I'd bet money you've bought something there at some point in your life.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Also, I never said there is anything wrong with buying online. As long as you understand the risk. Those that beleive there is no risk are fooling themselves. I liken buying online to buying a used car. Sometimes you get a deal, and can tell all your friends that you saved money on your car, and call people that buy a brand new car "idiots", but the minute your used car breaks and you have to foot the bill, the story changes from "wow what a deal" to "Brand X car is a POS"

It could also be compared to buying stuff at "big lots". Nothing wrong with that, but sometimes you get an expired product, an imitation, or a scratch and dent item. I shop at big lots too, but the Spotbot I bought refurbished is a risk I took.


----------



## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

There are very few good shops anymore (proportionally) and honestly, I think that we enthusiasts should stay out of running car audio shops, they are a business, not a passion. I've met a whole lot of shop owners who were passionate, and couldn't make a go of it because their passion got in the way of doing business. Let business people run the shops, let them hire passionate people to staff them, but make sure those people cam match their passion with skill.

One of the biggest problems has already been outlined, anyone can open a shop and call themself a professional. I'd consider myself at least as qualified as any installer I know, as well as having a superior knowledge of electricity, fabrication control systems and wiring, and I've had the opportunity to buy a successful car audio business. I chose not to because I don't think that I could make a go of it successfully, I'd love to do it, but honestly I can't risk my family's future on it. I'd end up on message boards bitching about people buying online and not supporting me.

most small businesses fail... car audio shops shouldn't be any different.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

IndoAudio FTW 

There were 3 wires to connect and after ****ing it up twice I got it on the third try 

But i still don't know where to connect the auto-sensing wire up to 

God, i hate freudian slips  I told them i didn't hook the wires up wrong and the amp they sent me was dead when i got it !


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> I also don't know many (enthusiasts) that could say that the last TRU/Focal vehicle I heard was "underwhelming".


Perhaps not, but it would probably be better with better drive units. And replacing the Tru amp with basically anything else of equivalent power wouldn't have changed the "whelmingness" of that vehicle one bit. Amps are commodities.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Alot of shops local to me do generally use box modeling programs when necessary, but what makes you think that the manufacturer's recomendations are from a "Marketing book". Think the manufacturer has not done any testing, or provided T/S parameters?


Done right, a subwoofer should be tailored to the transfer function of a specific vehicle, with a combination of acoustic processing (box volume) and signal processing, along with pains taken to ensure the available power won't drive the sub beyond xmag. A manufacturer's recommendation is generic, and more often than not wrong for most vehicles.

Besides, most car-fi speaker/sub marketers don't have the same degree of precision of make as, say, B&C or Peerless. The market just doesn't demand it.



WRX/Z28 said:


> What easily available alternatives do you have? Let me guess, DIY drivers. So what you are saying is that DIY drivers always sound better than any prepackaged speaker set. I don't know how you can back up that claim any more than I could back up a claim to the opposite. I think that's mostly oppinion and not fact.


That one's trivially easy. 

First, car-fi marketed speaker sets generally use drivers that are measurably and audibly inferior to mid-priced hobbyist drivers. (Even the best ones are at best slightly modified variants of hobbyist drivers, with massive markup)

Second, off-the-peg sets, unless expressly designed for use in a specific car in specific places, is going to have a crossover included that's nothing more than a hack. Intelligent crossover design requires measuring and listening to the drivers on their intended baffles, which in a car means in situ. (Coincident drivers, such as the last car-fi branded speakers I bought - KEF Audio UK KAR System 160Q's, ca. 1994 - can at least get the phase relationship between mid and tweet right, but even then some tailoring is required.) That's why most aftermarket systems today sound considerably worse (above the extreme LF, at least) than so many of the better OEM systems. Yes, the OEM stuff may use even worse drivers than the car stuff, but design and execution matters more, and today they're putting the time into getting their DSPs to extract the best sound from those drivers in those locations. 




WRX/Z28 said:


> Bashing the average shop for performing a service for the regular guy to enthusiast, and stating that they are taking advantage of the consumer by charging retail, and refusing outside product is a bit off the mark.


I agree, because you're fighting a strawman here. Nobody here is talking about "the regular guy." That's just out of the scope. If anything, your problem with the "regular guy" is simply that OEM systems have gotten good enough to make the "deck and 4" basically pointless today.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Alot of shops local to me do generally use box modeling programs when necessary, but what makes you think that the manufacturer's recomendations are from a "Marketing book". Think the manufacturer has not done any testing, or provided T/S parameters?


Done right, a subwoofer should be tailored to the transfer function of a specific vehicle, with a combination of acoustic processing (box volume) and signal processing, along with pains taken to ensure the available power won't drive the sub beyond xmag. A manufacturer's recommendation is generic, and more often than not wrong for most vehicles.

Besides, most car-fi speaker/sub marketers don't have the same degree of precision of make as, say, B&C or Peerless. The market just doesn't demand it.



WRX/Z28 said:


> What easily available alternatives do you have? Let me guess, DIY drivers. So what you are saying is that DIY drivers always sound better than any prepackaged speaker set. I don't know how you can back up that claim any more than I could back up a claim to the opposite. I think that's mostly oppinion and not fact.


That one's trivially easy. 

First, car-fi marketed speaker sets generally use drivers that are measurably and audibly inferior to mid-priced hobbyist drivers. (Even the best ones are at best slightly modified variants of hobbyist drivers, with massive markup)

Second, off-the-peg sets, unless expressly designed for use in a specific car in specific places, is going to have a crossover included that's nothing more than a hack. Intelligent crossover design requires measuring and listening to the drivers on their intended baffles, which in a car means in situ. (Coincident drivers, such as the last car-fi branded speakers I bought - KEF Audio UK KAR System 160Q's, ca. 1994 - can at least get the phase relationship between mid and tweet right, but even then some tailoring is required.) That's why most aftermarket systems today sound considerably worse (above the extreme LF, at least) than so many of the better OEM systems. Yes, the OEM stuff may use even worse drivers than the car stuff, but design and execution matters more, and today they're putting the time into getting their DSPs to extract the best sound from those drivers in those locations. 




WRX/Z28 said:


> If everyone could/desired to do it themselves, they would. If you could have a succesful business of RTA'ing every car you worked on, using only diy drivers, spending hours calculating the perfect box, and trial an error testing gear for every customer, and make a profit at it. You would!


The time frames you suggest, as well your diction - what use is an RTA in the age of FuzzMeasure! - tell me that you're rather less expert in the ways of audio design in the modern world than you'd have us believe.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21, you're right. You must own a pretty successful shop with all your wisdom and knowledge. You aparently know more about this than I do. Everything can be cut down to black and white, and nothing made buy any large company is worth it. DIY drivers are the only way to go. Amps are all the same, i'm sure you have Pyramid in your car for power. You've listened to every speaker in existence, in every situation imaginable, and have determined undeniably, that there is only one way to get from point A to B. Shops have absolutely no skill or experience. This includes all of them. RTA's are useless with the advent of the MAC, and there is no way possible that anyone could ever build a good sounding box without a box building program. If you have anything other than DS-21's system, installed by DS-21, and tuned by DS-21, it can't possibly be good. I'd love to hear your car someday, since it must ultimately be the holy grail of car audio. 

I hope you caught the sarcasm, I laid it on ultra thick. 

You must be an engineer, not sure what type, but they almost always have your attitude. Everything is reduced to numbers. Speakers are "Better" or "Worse" and personal preference doesn't come in to play. A driver's T/S parameters are the only thing that matters, not how it sounds once it's in your car. Also, perfectly flat response sounds best. 

Again, sarcasm, sorry about that, couldn't help myself. You're right man, I'm no "expert in the ways of audio design". Never claimed to be. I do however have a wealth of experience (14 years), both with older cars, and integration with todays cars. I'm still learning every day. I'm also humble enough to know that I don't know everything about everything. It seems that you are not.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

I've been reading this thread and the one posted in response to this one on another forum and, for the most part, it's been amusing. Many of the folks here do indeed know more than an average installer and many of the shops you guys complain about do indeed suck. There are some good ones, though. It's like everything else, everyone has their specialty. Because an installer isn't an acoustician doesn't mean he's an idiot. I am pretty knowledgeable, but I also admit that I learn something every day. Sometimes here, sometimes at work and sometimes in a book. I'm the ultimate DIY-er. I studied English lit and philosophy in college and installed stereos part time. When I was a beginner, I didn't know anything. As I learned more as a retail installer, I thought I knew everything and I was quick to berate everyone and every company I thought was less cool than the one I revered at the time. It wasn't until I came to work for Harman that I realized I didn't know ****. Over the years I've apologized to many people I berated when I just thought I knew what I was doing. Now, I try not to berate anyone because there's always someone who knows more. It really sucks to have to begin a conversation I could learn a lot from with an apology. My point is that before you make blanket statements about big companies who use thiele and small parameters as marketing, who add no value through design, testing and modification to products that are ultimately made in China and assert that boxes should be designed for vehicles rather than for woofers, you should be absolutely sure what you say isn't debatable at best and can't be disproven in 30 seconds at a minimum. I provide box designs for all JBL and Infinity woofers and I can assure you that those are the optimum boxes, that the parameters we publish are real and I don't know of many other companies who publish an in-car response. Incidentally, the graphs I posted on the cabin gain thread are examples of the testing we do to make sure the information we provide is accurate. I still have a lot to learn. So do many of you and the pro installers do too. We'll all learn more if we can have friendly conversations about this.


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> You aparently know more about this than I do.


For better or worse, in at least some aspects of modern audio design, I do appear to. For instance, unless you're using a slide rule, designing a box shouldn't take more than maybe 30sec if it's sealed and you have good in-car measurements. Maybe 2min if it's ported and you have good in-car measurements. You could hopefully run rings around me in many of the nuts-and-bolts aspects of high-end car audio, though, such as fiberglass work. I'm awful at that kind of stuff. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> nothing made buy any large company is worth it.


That's an interesting distortion of what I wrote. Wrong, but interesting.

In terms of audio companies, I'm fairly sure Tymphany (parent company o ScanSpeak, Vifa, Peerless, and various diffusion lines) is anything but small. I wouldn't imagine that Seas is that small either. Not to mention the biggest non-Bose audio company of them all, Harman, one of whose lines I expressly singled out as a car-fi product that's actually cutting-tech technology-wise and exceptional sounding. So it's certainly not "bigness" that's bad. Just mediocrity and stagnation.

But, and it's a real problem for guys like you on the ground, in a lot of ways the industry has failed you. Take headunits for example. They are by and large freakishly ugly, to the point where I walk into a shop and I cannot imagine the indignity of staring at one of them in my dash. (I still use an elegant-looking Denon I bought in 1994. And if it breaks, I have a spare. It sounds like any other digital source, but looks like it was designed for an adult.) Fortunately, OEM's have by and large stepped up, and some of the more farsighted car-fi players have introduced DSP boxes that allow use of the OEM HU. And many of them (such as the Alpine box that incorporates Audyssey MultEQ XT and the forthcoming JBL MS8) offer serious advances for the mobile music enthusiast. Or subwoofers. There is just so much dross out there, that the few interesting ones (e.g. the JBL W1xGTi line) seem to get drowned out in a sea of sonically and technically inferior overpriced crap.



WRX/Z28 said:


> DIY drivers are the only way to go. Amps are all the same, i'm sure you have Pyramid in your car for power.


Sonically, competently designed amps all sound the same. I've written a few time that the only reason I picked the JL 300/4 is because, at the time I bought it, it was the only amp available that had a built-in crossover with slopes and available frequency points that would allow me to not destroy the small Aura widebanders I'm using up top. I certainly would've rather spent less and picked up (for example) an Infinity amp, or spent more and picked up a full-range Class-D amp. Were I starting today, I'd likely buy that Kenwood 4-channel class-D amp with the built-in DSP. And yes, I'd likely buy it online. I discovered it online, after all.



WRX/Z28 said:


> You've listened to every speaker in existence, in every situation imaginable, and have determined undeniably, that there is only one way to get from point A to B.


That's all a bit silly. Probably 95% of the stuff out there can be safely rejected on spec. But yes, I've often bought things that looked interesting to me just to play with them, and frankly I suspect I've heard a lot more really good stuff than people dependent on car-fi companies for their product.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Shops have absolutely no skill or experience. This includes all of them.


Nobody said that. What I wrote was that they don't, in the main, have experience with modern audio design. Which, judging by your content and your tone, is true. Instead of bitching at me, how about learning how audio is done right in 2008?



WRX/Z28 said:


> RTA's are useless with the advent of the MAC,


Obsolete, not useless. I'm sure there are Notamac-based MLS measurement systems, too. Some of them might even be free. I just haven't and likely won't ever see them. It is utterly inexcusable, in my eyes, for someone who makes their living in audio to not be familiar with modern measurement and modeling systems and use them as a matter of course. That goes for home audio and HT shops too, of course.



WRX/Z28 said:


> and there is no way possible that anyone could ever build a good sounding box without a box building program.


Never wrote that. BUT, it is inexcusable for a shop that sells any custom-made subwoofers for any market (car, home, coal mine, whatever) in 2008 to not be intimately familiar with at least one enclosure and crossover modeling program. If such places aren't willing to spend the time and resources necessary to add value to the products they sell, why should we give them our business, except simply as outsourcing for stuff we don't feel like doing? 



WRX/Z28 said:


> I'd love to hear your car someday, since it must ultimately be the holy grail of car audio.


My daily driver is really nothing special. Then again, it's impossible to make a small 2-seat roadster an impressive audio machine, unless you want to make it as unusable as a Solstice, or a theft magnet. Within the constraints of stock appearance and no diminished functionality, I think it's fair to say that I did OK with my daily driver's system. Before I did it, there were very few people playing with small widebanders augmented in the midbass, in Miatae or any other type of car.



WRX/Z28 said:


> You must be an engineer, not sure what type, but they almost always have your attitude.


I am about as far as you can get from an engineer, actually. I'm just a) educated; b) not retarded; and c) interested in music. That's really all it takes.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Everything is reduced to numbers. Speakers are "Better" or "Worse" and personal preference doesn't come in to play. A driver's T/S parameters are the only thing that matters, not how it sounds once it's in your car. Also, perfectly flat response sounds best.


I never said any of those things, of course. But generally, if you look at the _right_ numbers (and oddly enough, you didn't mention any of them above) you will rarely if ever be surprised by the performance of a piece of audio gear. Even a drive unit. That's just reality.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Because an installer isn't an acoustician doesn't mean he's an idiot.


Of course not, but there's a big gap between being an acoustician and being familiar with basic and inexpensive but powerful tools that many, many hobbyists use every time they set up a car or home system, such as MLS measurement rigs with calibrated mics and enclosure/crossover modeling programs. That just seems like such a basic thing in 2008 (and a minimal cost, at that) and it blows my mind how rarely one sees them at the ground level in car-fi. (HT custom installers tend to be more up-to-date, from what I've seen.) 

That said, I do appreciate the stuff that Harman, Audyssey and others are doing to get that kind of stuff into (relatively) mainstream products with automated routines that in time spans measured in minutes seem to get at worst about 90% of where someone with a great ear, good measurement gear, and very flexible equipment can get in tens or more hours of critical listening spanning weeks. 



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> My point is that before you make blanket statements about big companies who use thiele and small parameters as marketing, who add no value through design, testing and modification to products that are ultimately made in China and assert that boxes should be designed for vehicles rather than for woofers, you should be absolutely sure what you say isn't debatable at best and can't be disproven in 30 seconds at a minimum.


Nobody said any of that stuff, in relation to manufacturers at least. (Well, some of them, but not all.) Harman, being a company that makes (or at least designs) most of its stuff, isn't the typical car-fi marketer by a long shot. 

As for data qua marketing, certainly companies should provide as much data in the public domain as possible. I'd love to see an FTC regulation mandating Klippel curves for all drivers sold in the US, but that's wishful thinking. When data are not provided (e.g. inductance not specified) one should rightly assume the worst.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I provide box designs for all JBL and Infinity woofers and I can assure you that those are the optimum boxes, that the parameters we publish are real and I don't know of many other companies who publish an in-car response.


Andy, I see what you're saying. And please note that I made a point to single out an excellent and cutting-edge SOTA (to say nothing of great-sounding) JBL products. However, two points. First, I find it hard to fathom how the same box is equally optimal in a Golf and an A8 Avant. Or, heaven forbid, one of the even larger vehicles sold in American today. Second, the work you do to test and recommend things for your products does not make it less incumbent on a competent shop to at least periodically test different stuff they install. It's not the maker, it's the end seller whose responsibility it should be to properly tailor the use of a given product to the situation at hand.


----------



## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Everything is reduced to numbers.


For the sake of comparison, something fairly quantitative is a lot easier to compare. How does one compare flaky qualitative adjectives?



WRX/Z28 said:


> Speakers are "Better" or "Worse" and personal preference doesn't come in to play.


That depends on what you're looking for. For many engineers, accuracy to the source is the goal and, as such, personal preference doesn't matter much.



WRX/Z28 said:


> A driver's T/S parameters are the only thing that matters, not how it sounds once it's in your car. Also, perfectly flat response sounds best.


I don't know any engineers who are dumb enough to believe or say that. I do, however, find a lot of people who are unaware of the other things an engineer would consider, and thus reduce the engineers understanding to a simple matter of Thiele/Small parameters (since they themselves are unaware of other factors) when it is much more layered than that.

Don't be too quick to judge someone by their profession and, if you do, make sure you understand exactly where they're coming from.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Neil said:


> I don't know any engineers who are dumb enough to believe or say that. I do, however, find a lot of people who are unaware of the other things an engineer would consider, and thus reduce the engineers understanding to a simple matter of Thiele/Small parameters (since they themselves are unaware of other factors) when it is much more layered than that.
> 
> Don't be too quick to judge someone by their profession and, if you do, make sure you understand exactly where they're coming from.


That's an extraordinarily good point, very well expressed. I think WRX/Z28 has gone of track with that approach. There are always going to be people who will never need or want the services of a B&M shop. Arguing that they are the problem doesn't help anybody, least of all the B&M shop. Future viability will depend on identifying and satisfying the requirements of those who do.


----------



## Beat_Dominator (Jun 13, 2008)

I skipped a bunch  So sue me.

....but on the first page someone said that the shops need to adapt. That is 100% correct.

Maybe...just maybe people who buy a LOT of audio equipment (most of these users on forums probably qualify) we have figured out that a majority of audio shops (all the ones I've ever been in) charge something like, oh, FULL MSRP on EVERYTHING!

I mean what the hell? Bestbuy and Walmart have proven that there is cash to be made in ultra high volume, lower margin sales. If someone got the investors to open a chain; let's say in FL or CA to open a full chain of shops with good service and almost wholesale prices (a lot like eBay sellers), you'd get buyers like me on warantees and easy access/instant gratification, and a huge selection of products.

Now, would a chain like this stay in business? The hell if I know, and I'm sure you'd scare most investors away with a mention of Audio-anything.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 3, 2008)

I can understand the warranty being a big deal for something like a vehicle that costs a couple of tens of thousands of dollars, but for anything less than 2000 dollars, I will not worry about a warranty. I cannot justify spendin more than 2000 on one car audio item.


----------



## werxnit (Jul 6, 2008)

always buy local just in case stuff happeneds easy to grab a guy across the counter then reach through the phone or emails...


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

As far as diffierent boxes for different cars goes, I don't believe in tailoring the sound of the woofer for different cars using the enclosure. There simply aren't enough tools in that method. After nearly 25 years of car audio, I find that the best way is to build a box that's as close to the optimum box for the woofer given the physical and cosmetic constraints of the vehicle and using EQ. 

Bass is the easiest part of car audio and that's probably why woofers and enclosures are commodities and why many shops are unhappy that what was once their "specialty" is now a low margin sale and one to which no value can be added for many consumers. It's pretty hard to find a specialty hamburger shop anywhere there's a McDonalds and McDonalds is everywhere. 

I don't think every shop needs to design every enclosure using CAD, but not using modeling software shouldn't provide subpar performance. If shops work on 200 Ford Explorers, it would be a waste of time to model a box for each one. 

As far as the profit thing goes, everyone has to make a living. If you don't believe you're well served at a shop that asks you for retail, then buy somewhere else. However, know that real companies with real engineering and research departments can't afford to open a little online store to sell to the few consumers who want to purchase there. Anyone with a PC, Adobe CS3 and 20-dollars can be a manufacturer of "high-end" audio products. That's what's wrong with our industry. Consumers can't be expected to sort the wheat from the chaff and that's what opens the door to these fly-by-night companies who make ridiculous claims and use flowery prose to describe performance that can be documented scientifically. Why do companies do this? Because they can't afford the science and fiction is hard to dispute. 

I'd like those of you who believe that retailers and manufacturers shouldn't make money to think about your own work. Would you be willing to take a 30-percent lower wage? If you own a business, would a 30-percent reduction in profits be OK? How would your family feel about that?

I read a book recently about the supply chain for a huge American retailer and there was an interview with a woman who sewed shirts in SriLanka. She worked super long days seven days a week and when she couldn't go on, she was whipped. Her comment was, "do americans really need shirts that are so cheap that the people who make them should be beaten?"

When you buy the cheapest product from the cheapest source all the time, you contribute to this kind of stuff. That's not to say that it's OK to be fleeced, but try to consider that there's more in a pair of speakers than metal, plastic and glue. There are also the lives of lots of people all over the world and a penny in your pocket is often the equivalent of a dollar out of theirs.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

So sad, So true  ^^^^^^^^^


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> That's an extraordinarily good point, very well expressed. I think WRX/Z28 has gone of track with that approach. There are always going to be people who will never need or want the services of a B&M shop. Arguing that they are the problem doesn't help anybody, least of all the B&M shop. Future viability will depend on identifying and satisfying the requirements of those who do.


Maybe a little bit, but my father is a chemical engineer, and I know he only see's things in numbers. Probably should have left that part out of my post, but it seemed so likely that I was right



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> As far as diffierent boxes for different cars goes, I don't believe in tailoring the sound of the woofer for different cars using the enclosure. There simply aren't enough tools in that method. After nearly 25 years of car audio, I find that the best way is to build a box that's as close to the optimum box for the woofer given the physical and cosmetic constraints of the vehicle and using EQ.
> 
> Bass is the easiest part of car audio and that's probably why woofers and enclosures are commodities and why many shops are unhappy that what was once their "specialty" is now a low margin sale and one to which no value can be added for many consumers. It's pretty hard to find a specialty hamburger shop anywhere there's a McDonalds and McDonalds is everywhere.
> 
> ...


Thank you for making my original point more eloquently than I could. The general misconception I see here regarding retail car audio sales is the profit level most shops are beleived to make. Everyone seems to think car audio makes 100% profit margin, when really, 30% is average.


----------



## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

I dont know if you guys have noticed a bad install and service trend as well. I got into car stereo when I got to college. I worked part time at Circuit Silly and that was when the discount was really good, not like today I hear. I worked in what they considered a flagship store becaue we were a block away from corporate. So everything including product and the installers were a grade above the usually big box types. They did what was considered custom work and had at that time really good service. They actually owned up to the few mistakes they made. They always made customers whole and sometimes better than whole. The stuff that came out of my store actually was equal to the custom and mom and pop shops around. I hear guys saying how bad the big box guys are now, but I have seen and heard horror stories out of the big name shops in Richmond. I have also heard how the service is the pitts and they basically try everything but own up and fix mistakes. I think a lot of guys moved online and DIY because they can basically do the same level of work for a much cheaper cost. Over the last couple of months I have seen what some people have paid for and what was called a "custom" job, and most of you guys are doing much better in your drive way.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Maybe a little bit, but my father is a chemical engineer, and I know he only see's things in numbers. Probably should have left that part out of my post, but it seemed so likely that I was right


I'll never agree that performance can't be quantified, but that argument isn't germane to your objective. DIY buyers who are willing to buy unauthorized and take their chances aren't ever going to be your customers. DIY buyers who want some expertise and a manufacturer warranty might be - if they can buy the product from a B&M at a price that is close to what they will pay for the same or similar products from authorized online sellers. Being able to handle warranty and trouble shooting issues face to face and immediately is worth some small additional cost. 

The process breaks down when product markup is used to subsidize installation costs. That eliminates the DIY buyer and also leads to buyer's remorse when the full service customer discovers a large discrepancy between the price he sees on his invoice and the prices he sees for identical products online. A lot of this thread has dealt with why DIYers will not go to a shop for installation services. Strategies for B&M success can't be extrapolated from this because DIYers will never go to a B&M for installation services. The real questions are: can they be enticed t make their purchases there and how can the full service customer's needs be better met?


----------



## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Everyone seems to think car audio makes 100% profit margin, when really, 30% is average.


many here are confusing markup with profit, which we should realize are different. 100% markup is not uncommon, 400%-500% even happens for accessories and other such items. it's like a local union boss who said "GM only has maybe 2000 dollars of material into a car, the rest is their profit" wel, as far as I know, GM loses over 2000 per car because their labour/overhead is so high.


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Thank you for making my original point more eloquently than I could. The general misconception I see here regarding retail car audio sales is the profit level most shops are beleived to make. Everyone seems to think car audio makes 100% profit margin, when really, 30% is average.


I think that's the case in some posts, but I think the larger and more important point is that most car audio dealers don't have the expertise in modern measurement and modeling systems that are simply required to do serious audio in 2008. That's the kind of thing that adds real value.

I have no problem with paying premium money for premium expertise. There's a reason I prefer to have my suits made at the Savile Row tailors in London (Anderson & Sheppard, Huntsman, Kilgours, etc.) or Knize in Vienna, even though they're all often cringingly expensive. (And more so now with the collapse of the dollar.) They're also exceptionally good at both the technical aspects (handwork, etc.) and the artistic aspects (designing shoulders, armholes, waist suppression, etc. to make the wearer look better and be more comfortable.). But to get premium money from a smart consumer, _premium expertise is absolutely required._ Until car-fi shops decide that actual knowledge of how audio is done in the modern era is important, why should they get a second glance?


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> I think that's the case in some posts, but I think the larger and more important point is that most car audio dealers don't have the expertise in modern measurement and modeling systems that are simply required to do serious audio in 2008. That's the kind of thing that adds real value.
> 
> I have no problem with paying premium money for premium expertise. There's a reason I prefer to have my suits made at the Savile Row tailors in London (Anderson & Sheppard, Huntsman, Kilgours, etc.) or Knize in Vienna, even though they're all often cringingly expensive. (And more so now with the collapse of the dollar.) They're also exceptionally good at both the technical aspects (handwork, etc.) and the artistic aspects (designing shoulders, armholes, waist suppression, etc. to make the wearer look better and be more comfortable.). But to get premium money from a smart consumer, _premium expertise is absolutely required._ Until car-fi shops decide that actual knowledge of how audio is done in the modern era is important, why should they get a second glance?



Hmmm... I guess I just don't see them as a "requirement". I've heard thousands of excellent sounding car's that have never used any of the "modern measurement and modeling systems" available. I think they are great tools, but not a requirement for good sound. The most important piece of listening equipment is still your ears.


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Hmmm... I guess I just don't see them as a "requirement". I've heard thousands of excellent sounding car's that have never used any of the "modern measurement and modeling systems" available. I think they are great tools, but not a requirement for good sound. The most important piece of listening equipment is still your ears.


Fair enough. But as long as car-fi shops party like it's 1985, don't expect intelligent and educated consumers to give them a second glance. And you have no idea how much productivity you're leaving on the table.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> Fair enough. But as long as car-fi shops party like it's 1985, don't expect intelligent and educated consumers to give them a second glance. And you have no idea how much productivity you're leaving on the table.


 No problem, i'll be sure to let all my customers know that some guy on my forum thinks they're all unintelligent and uneducated. 

I'll also be sure to take a running count of customers that we lose, and i'll have a talk with the boss about productivity. 

BTW, in 1985, I was 8. lol


----------



## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> No problem, i'll be sure to let all my customers know that some guy on my forum thinks they're all unintelligent and uneducated.
> 
> I'll also be sure to take a running count of customers that we lose, and i'll have a talk with the boss about productivity.
> 
> BTW, in 1985, I was 8. lol


I dont think he is calling your customers unintelligent. I think his point is most B$M customers are not as demanding as most DIYMA types. 
I for one can tell you if my local shop had measurement equipment I would gladly pay them a reasonable fee to do some measurements for me. 

That is my whole point about ADAPTING to a changing market. B&M shops need to sell service and their equipment will sell itself, providing they price it competitively. 

Other consumer electronics segments like marine electronics have already encountered these changes. The car audio shops have a choice as I see it. They can either adapt or they can die. I hope they choose the former.But with some of the attitudes I see of pro installers on here it doesn't seem like that is going to be the case. I see the consumers and manufacturers being blamed, but it is the shops that will have to adapt or die.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

I hope I wasn't complaining about consumers or manufacturers anywhere. If I did, I don't remember it. Most of our customers are great. We are fair about our pricing, as long as we're comparing apples to apples. We go the extra mile to see that the customer is happy, and receives service even after the sale. I've got a wealth of firsthand experience setting up and tuning cars using some "obsolete" methods. Our results speak for themselves as our shop is lined with trophy's, both ours, and our customers. Some for show, some for SQ. All are due to our attention to detail. I assure you if I'm really that far behind the times, and getting myself familiar with some newer modeling/testing equipent will yeild *noticeably* better results for the customer as well as myself, i'll start educating myself further. That is, after all, why i'm here... to learn.


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> I assure you if I'm really that far behind the times, and getting myself familiar with some newer modeling/testing equipent will yeild *noticeably* better results for the customer as well as myself, i'll start educating myself further. That is, after all, why i'm here... to learn.


Cool. Time to dig in, then, because not only does leaving the audio world ca. 1985 for the modern audio world promise you better results, but also it offers them _faster._ Someone who used to spend weeks working on passive crossovers with crude iterative listening processes and low-rez tools can now reach that same point in maybe an hour, which leaves much more time for fine-tuning for the super-obsessed but is likely just fine for most. That's what I meant by lost productivity above.


----------



## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

I was thinking today, and I'd like to see car audio distributors go the same way as plumbing, electrical, heating distributors. There is a store front in major centers, and anyone can go in and pay full retail (or some other set price) for anything that distributor has, but professionals (IE installers and shops) would be able to buy the exact same thing at a discount, and discounts would vary between professionals based on volume, loyalty, longevity etc. but generally a decent discount.


----------



## dwvw (Jul 2, 2008)

That's a great idea, but it just encourages transshipping. Oh and was the shop you are talking about being great till they closed start with the letter P? I have been out of the CCA scene for quite a while.


----------



## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

WRX/Z28,

You sound like someone who is genuinely concerned about serving the customer and I applaud that attitude. Going the extra mile to ensure the customer is satisfied offers you a competitive advantage over others and bulds the type of reputation that brings people in via word of mouth.

However, I have to agree with DS on the subject of modern equipment... How long does it take you to tune by ear versus with an RTA or other measurement device. The answer is a lot longer. Besides what happens when you have a head cold and aren't hearing as you would normally. Do you tell the customers to come back next week?

I firmly believe that experience and a good set of ears make all the difference in tuning but adding measurement equiment to the equation enhances consistency and makes you more efficient, which allows you to reduce prices. Which one of your customers would prefer to pay more for the same end result?

Besides for every person that is a great tuner there are 100 that THINK they are great tuners (not a knock against you but just a general statement about what I have observed). You may be the end all be all of tuners. Hell, I thought that I was a great tuner back when I worked in the industry only to find out two decades later how little I really knew...

Again, I applaud your attitude but I do believe that modern measurement equiment could greatly improve the quality of the end product.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

SSSnake said:


> WRX/Z28,
> 
> You sound like someone who is genuinely concerned about serving the customer and I applaud that attitude. Going the extra mile to ensure the customer is satisfied offers you a competitive advantage over others and bulds the type of reputation that brings people in via word of mouth.
> 
> ...


#1, I agree. 
#2, DS-21 says RTA's are obsolete. 
#3 In my experience, perfectly Flat RTA response usually doesn't sound good to most customers, even including the guys that are sq guys.


----------



## mokedaddy (Feb 26, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> #1, I agree.
> #2, DS-21 says RTA's are obsolete.
> #3 In my experience, perfectly Flat RTA response usually doesn't sound good to most customers, even including the guys that are sq guys.


In my commercial experience, over 90% of customers dont even have an eq in their system. The actual customer base for such equipment is relatively small and thus not price efficient, especially if a shop is struggling to get by.

Note: I quoted you because I was adding to your point, not directly responding to anyone.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

mokedaddy said:


> In my commercial experience, over 90% of customers dont even have an eq in their system. The actual customer base for such equipment is relatively small and thus not price efficient, especially if a shop is struggling to get by.
> 
> Note: I quoted you because I was adding to your point, not directly responding to anyone.


Hey, you don't have to tell me. I already know this, but i'd like to be able to "bring myself up to the modern age" and add to my skillset anyway.


----------



## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

WRX/Z28,

On point two I think that there are more effective mesaurement tools out there but an RTA in the hands of a well trained tuner works wonders and is very inexpensive. Again the savings in time and improvements in consistency cannot be argued (at least I have seen no logical arguments).

On point three I never suggested a perfectly flat curve. I purposely did not specify the shape of the curve to avoid that argument. I would propose that a smooth curve sounds much better than a response curve with large peaks and/or dips.


Mokedaddy,

Maybe we are looking at two completely different classes of equipment but most of the HUs that I have seen lately have at least some limited eq capability. If not I would strongly suggest pushing equipment that does include at least some eq capability.


----------



## mokedaddy (Feb 26, 2007)

SSSnake said:


> Mokedaddy,
> 
> Maybe we are looking at two completely different classes of equipment but most of the HUs that I have seen lately have at least some limited eq capability. If not I would strongly suggest pushing equipment that does include at least some eq capability.


Yes most heads do in fact have some sort of band shaping, but do you really find it necessary to pull out an rta for basic 3 or 5 bands of eq? That was merely my point.


----------



## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

arrivalanche said:


> Now working in the car audio industry for the past 10+ years I can definitely see what ebay and other online stores have done to the industry. I just wanted to get an impression if you DIYers know the consequences of bypassing your local shops. I have personally seen almost half of the stable shops go under the last few years and talking to reps and other shops you hear the same thing, "sales just aren't there." I know the economy is bad anymore but I just see it wrong how people dont support their local shop of choice. Dont you realize that you get a lot more than a higher price for your equipment? You get a warranty that you cant get if you buy it online through unauthorized dealers, not to mention the convenience of having it in stock that day. I just feel that if everyone continues to cut out the middle man they wont be there when you need them, and that it will ultimately effect the brands themselves. I know everyone is looking for the best price, but ultimately it comes at a price to many people. Feel free to give me your opinion.


YEs, I get to spend my hard earned money on better product of my choosing, instead of being limited to Morel & Digital Designs as hi end at one shop or Memphis & Focal at the other, or going to a 'hack n hope' like audio express, or one of the greymarket lower end Alpine/pioneer/ kicker shops...

I get to keep my hard earned money out of chop shops that oooh and ahh over kenwood and pioneer (base) equipment and think class D and kicker l5 is the 'most tightest yo', and avoid dealing with commissioned sales people with zip technical knowledge who were in diapers(1991) when I started playing with mobile audio and were riding BMXs when I started installing for a living (1997).

But then I am always buyin Older gear or used gear... the only time I bought anything new was because I needed an amp 12 hours before a trip after thieves stole my old one. And I bought locally, but at dealer cost because I worked there. 

Now that shop, the only really quality shop in town is gone, the people that took over renovated the store to look like everyone else and sellthe same crap as everyone else, and do about the same quality work as everyone else. I'm just glad I got out of the retail business (3 years ago) before it totally tanked.

there is no profit in competing with cut throat fly by night shops... especially places in Mexico.




Sassmastersq said:


> I was thinking today, and I'd like to see car audio distributors go the same way as plumbing, electrical, heating distributors. There is a store front in major centers, and anyone can go in and pay full retail (or some other set price) for anything that distributor has, but professionals (IE installers and shops) would be able to buy the exact same thing at a discount, and discounts would vary between professionals based on volume, loyalty, longevity etc. but generally a decent discount.


they do that already... only the gateway is called a distributor... and if you want to compete with JOE Schmoe the big box shack down the street that buys a million units of name brand A or RF, or K and gets a big discount for doing it, you better trans ship some product to a couple of other stores and get a better discount, or hope your market supports some really highend customers and drop it... because the kids are going to go to the cheap place with the same name brand that they read about on the infoweb...


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

The arguement about perfectly flat response is moot--it'll never happen in a car, unless you have hundreds of bands of EQ and a high-resolution analyzer. The reason that flat response measured with a 31-band RTA and implemented with a 31-band EQ never sounds good is because the resolution is too poor to really see what is going on too poor to apply the necessary filters. A 31-band EQ is a passable tool for shaping a curve that's already been corrected with a real tool.

However, even that EQ is better than no EQ and combined with a high-resolution analyzer, it can make a substantial improvement. 31-band analysis and a 31-band EQ are a recipe for poor performance and that's why shops are reluctant to spend money on the tool. 

That's no excuse for not looking for a better one, though. If you really believe that tuning by ear is the best method, as a retailer, you'll have a tough time convincing knowledable consumers that your service is valuable. You'll need lots of demo cars and some additional proof that your method works. If history and current practice are indicators of appropriateness, then NOT BEING ABLE TO COLLECT MONEY FOR TUNING EQS should alert you to this fact.

It's no mystery that better OE systems are cutting into the potential business we can do in the aftermarket. Why is this? Are the OEs installing blingy 1000-watt amplifiers? Are they installing $500 component speakers and aperiodic enclosures? Uh...no. They're installing multi-channel chip amplifiers with more digital processing power than an entire Pioneer ODR system--and they're doing it inexpensively. 

For the last ten years, I've been usiing our OE amplifiers as DSPs in research and development cars and they have provided the performance target for the development of the someday-finished MS-8. No one here will convince me that any shop will ultimately be successful in providing systems that outperform these under-powered OE systems without some additional learning. 

Someone here suggested that less than 10% of customers use an EQ in their cars. that souns like opportunity to me--and a bigger opportunity than trying to convince a consumer that ripping out a seriously powerful DSP, tuned by acousticians, and replacing it with some expensive speakers and a 500 watt amplifier with NO EQ CAPABILITY will provide better performance. I'd say that the current decline in the sales of aftermarket gear is an indicator that consumers are catching on or have caught on. expensive 2-channel audio and some fiberglass kick panels won't outperform factory speaker locations ( with a few additional well-ppaced drivers) and good processing.

I have a car that will prove that and someday there will be a JBL processor that will make all of these RTA arguements unnecessary for regular consumers.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Andy, 

I agree with you about tuning with an RTA or some other advanced method for the educated consumer. The unfortunate part is that this consumer makes up less than 5% of the average customer base. If you beleive otherwise, you don't work in a shop. The average customer buys an EQ, and turns it into a smiley face on the settings. I could spend hours attempting to talk them out of that mentality, but i'd be wasting my breath on 90% of those customers. 

If all of my customers were DS-21, or myself, or 90% of the people on this forum, we'd break out the RTA much more often than we do. I'd probably be selling EQ's much more often than I do. We'd have vendors like eclipse still making 7 sku's in the "deck" catagory instead of the 3 they're down to. 

Customers today perceive SQ as nothing more than volume without "distortion". Distortion being perceived as a sub bottoming out, or speakers cracking, or extreme amp clipping. The average customer comes in now with these DSP involved systems complaining that they hate them because there is no bass in the car. I'll get in the car and it will sound great to me for a stock audio system. They'll be pointing out that it doesn't sound like they're in the club. The tweeters aren't making their ear's bleed, and it's not painful to listen to, so there is something wrong. They beleive the lack of obnoxious bass, and lack of ear piercing highs are a negative, and noone can convince them otherwise. We've had cars that placed well in SQ competitions that customers just made the "eh" face to when we let them listen to them. We then show them a ball players vehicle with 10 subs, and in your face, bright nasty high's, and they're all excited, and this is how they want their car to sound and look. This to them is SQ. If you try to convince them otherwise, you are going to lose a customer. Even trying to convince someone that they don't want their tweeters seperated 36" from the woofers, and sitting up on the dash, is near impossible. 

I'm reduced to having to ask "Do you want my oppinion?" or stating "If this were my car, I would..." If I get a no to the first question, or a frown when I make the second statement, I know I have to back off, and give the customer what they think they want. I feel if I asked if the customer want's an "education", i've done my job. As my #1 priority is making the customer happy, I've installed plenty of components with the tweeter in the A pillar, and the woofer way down low in the door. I've put together many systems with "as many subs will fit in the trunk". I've learned that I can't necessarily place my value's, and my idea of SQ, on every customer that walks through the door, and be successful. For these customers, setting up a system that doesn't break, and is wired correctly, and is displayed nicely, and finished in a flashy fashion, is ultimately going to make the sale, and earn the repeat customer. 

I get much greater joy from the rare, true sq customer. Alot of times I end up learning from them, and "teaching" them at the same time. I spend much more time in their car, to the point of losing money time wise, and i'm happy to do so. I'd spend time after hours, off the clock to help dial in their setup. It's a shame that this customer is the exception rather than the rule. I wish I saw more customers like this. It would certainly drive me to advance myself further. Where are you guys? Judging from this thread, you're not shopping at your local dealer, nor are you likely to in the near future. Is there anything I can do to change that?


----------



## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Where are you guys? Judging from this thread, you're not shopping at your local dealer, nor are you likely to in the near future. Is there anything I can do to change that?


I Used to patronize my local dealer frequently. I have spent thousands buying at my local dealer. I now live 2 hrs from that dealer and still talk to the stores salesman and owner pretty frequently. I also visit a local dealer where I live pretty often. I have a hard time letting loose of large sums of money there any more though, when I can buy online for a fraction of the cost. I wish my dealer offered more expertise, and maybe some MLS or RTA measurement as I would be happy to pay for those. I would also be a very easy sell for products if they were closer to the prices I can get them for online.


----------



## installerman (May 26, 2008)

Mooble said:


> Price is a big factor, yes, but not the only factor.
> 
> Reasons why I don't go to shops...
> 
> ...


I applaud you for approaching the facts. EVERYTHING is killing the car audio industry. why shouldn't we look at the way new cars are being built? the half assed quality of car audio from factory in new cars is better than it was but nobody's convinced anymore that aftermarket is better, much less is anybody but the audiopphile willing to spend that much to get what they want. 

I'm sure people that were capable of installing their own **** 15 years ago and plus still managed to find a way to get their **** cheaper anyways, so if a warrantee isn't important, honestly why not take the opportunity to even go so far as to make money off it? mind you the really good stuff is hard to find online anyway (see what you find when you look up audison on ebay). 

I can see it from a rep or manufacturers standpoint, but as any other industry they've gotta find a way to catch up to the times or risk imploding as a whole. I don't think it's good that ebay and online purchases are killing the industry, but look for example at the music industry. you can't stop illegal piracy either, but artists like radiohead and NIN are releasing music for free and turning it into a marketin g strategy. why can't car audio innovate a way to be relevant to the average person again?

There's gotta be a way, I look to companies like alpine and blaupunkt for innovating more factory integration innovation. I thought blaupunkt had just about gone under til I saw what they've innovated for the 2008 year. amps that plug right into the factory harness? WOW! I think all they need is a better ad campaign and they'll turn the market upside down. 

the Ipod has been the best thing for the car audio industry in the last ten years for sure. from an install standpoint I can't tell you how awesome it is to toss in an extra 30 dollar install for every SINGLE ipod owner's car. think about that. why do you think alpine has a whole LINE of decks dedicated to it?

seriously people things can't stay the same forever. this discussion has about as much point to it as complaining about gas prices. sure it sucks, but we've got to adapt or die. that simple. we might as well work for GM, lol. yeah 3000 employees are really gonna hurt GM in the long run. quit complaining and figure out a better way. 

all you who still put money back in the industry (which does occasionally include myself), good for you, seriously way to go you deserve an award. but let's get serious here, has anybpody gone to car shows to see an old stiungray with jensen 6x9's cut into it? it's not just the young people either. again it's the ENTIRE industry.

the only money left in the industry is custom (if you can keep the business constant), or remote starters. it's as simple as innovate or die


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

I don't buy much of this--especially the deal about no one caring about good sound. 

I've done hundreds of demos of great sounding cars with systems that don't play loud and should cost about $2k. My mother wants one, my sister wants one, bunches of people in my office who never cared about car audio want them. The problem isn't that no one cares about audio. The problem is that we have to attract a new customer. The only people who are inclined to look for an independent car audio retailer are the guys who want bomin bass and skin-ripping highs. 

Why is that? Because over the last 20 years we've taught most everyone that car audio shops are the people who make cars go boom and include a fiberglass monument to Zeus in the trunk. Nearly every shop that's still in business has demo cars to prove it. I can't remember the last time I went to a shop and asked to hear a demo car and heard something that's affordable and appeals to someone who isn't into boom or customization. Do we really need to demo a Scion XB with 12 12" woofers and 10kW or a competition car with no trunk, a fiberglass tub, kick panels that render the parking brake useless and a flip-up screen that blocks the air vents? What kid is going to be impressed by the Scion? Even if they are, they'll go find the cheapest BS woofers online and hack together a box in their backyard with chipboard. Why do they do that? Because they have no money. What adult will be impressed by the competition car? Hmmm..."I don't need a trunk or a parking brake..."

If you're a shop and you want to provide a service to people who can and will pay for it, show them something they can relate to and that they'll love to listen to. 

To the DIYers here: You guys represent one point of view and it's valid. For those of you who are into sound quality, there are VERY few shops that can appeal to you because you find their methods to be behind the times and since you're all enthusiasts, you've discovered better methods. Even IASCA is behind--way behind. Whether or not you can implement the better methods remains to be seen. I can tell you that there's no market with any chance of commercial success for a super-tweaky car DSP that requires a PC for setup--at least not for a company like the one I work for. Here's another tip--those toolbox DSPs are a dime a dozen and turn-key solutions are available for next to nothing. EQ, Delay, Crossover, Multi-channel decoding (except Logic7) are available from nearly every DSP provider...all you have to do is wrap a preamp and output circuit around it. If you're really DIYers, buy a TI development board and go nuts--there's no need to wait for a cool heat sink and a logo. 

To everyone--and the current battle over the someday released MS-8 and the Lanzar DSP and all the other ones that don't include auto EQ is a good example of this--a powerful processor, the best and most detailed information and the most expensive test gear don't make a great system. All of this arguing over which brands are high end, mid-fi and low-fi isn't worth much. The MOST important part of any system in a car is the installation and tuning. About 7 or 8 years ago, I built a car for CES and used the cheapest speakers we sold at the time, entry-level amplifiers and a serious Pro-Sound DSP. It tool a week to install the stuff and a week to tune it. I had a line of people waiting outside the car to hear it. Even our President of Engineering loved it. 

The reason OE is kicking the aftermarket's ass is because for most people, those systems sound MUCH better. If your market is the few people who want more bass and more treble and there are enough of those cars to keep you in business, then you're set. For the rest of the potential consumers who either didn't buy the premium system by mistake or chose not to, give a demo--but not of your boomin' Scion TC. That's not what they want. You may have to look for these new customers--many of them don't know you exist. 

One day, automatic EQ will do a better job than 95% of tuners--professional or amateur and it'll make great sound available to everyone who wants it at a price they can afford. If every shop knew how to tune cars for regular Joes who know what sounds good but don't have the vocabulary to describe it (essentially to tune cars as well as OEs do) there would be NO MARKET FOR AUTO EQ and a huge market for toolbox DSPs that don't include a bunch of BS high-end D/A, A/D, gold connectors and 100V preamp outputs.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Oh, and how does this relate to "the ultimate consequences of buying online"? When you eliminate margin, you eliminate the money necessary to pay for R&D.


----------



## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

I have been saying similar things for years.

Two channel stereophonic is close to dead. Go into any normal store selling audio equipment, and you will find multichannel audio. 

Where do you find two channel audio?

Some specialist shop on out of the way, boutique style area.

Point
The public voted with their feet.

What does car audio offer?
Two channel stereophonic. (with few exceptions)

Universities, are using ambisonics and are moving towards VBAP. (for use in three dimensional sound) The next area is binaural techniques. (hearing aids etc)

Point
After market car audio does not relate to the consumer. The consumer has moved on.

Wonder why (conventional) car audio is dying?

I wonder why it still survives.
It does little or nothing to deserve to be around.

Please just die quietly, consumers are sick of it. (loud bass etc: see various laws being passed)

Internet sales are HELPING you to survive.

How is it, that the consumer:
having access to inexpensive products, 
Internet forums,
Large choice of products,
TV time,

Is bad for business?

Imagine some out of the way hobby, like say baseball, having such a marketing strategy.

that the consumer:
having access to inexpensive baseball products, 
baseball Internet forums,
Large choice of baseball products,
TV time,

On no; baseball will NEVER succeed.

Dead fish always swim with the flow.


----------



## 86mr2 (Apr 29, 2005)

Yes Andy!!! Brilliantly put. 

From my experience with a 9887 and MultEq, I can see that the point will indeed come ( actually, may even be here) where DSP will bring autotuning capability that will yeild great results from any decent install. That is a real opportunity for the clever shop to easily upgrade a muddy factory system to something that offers real clarity and dynamics, without modifying the interior at all. 

Purists and hobbyists and fanboys don't want to hear that, but that is fine. Each has his own outlet for his own interests, be it competition, twiddling their own systems or posting on forums. The home hifi market has shown for years that businesses can serve those somewhat fringe markets, find customers and every one has fun. (Turned rosewood volume knobs for gainclones that improve the audio performance is one of my favorites.) Most people, however, are not interested in extreme performance - just demonstrable improvement. There is a mass market there.


----------



## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

Good to have you around on here Andy, I've been enjoying reading your posts and point of view with your experience in the industry!


----------



## KAPendley (Nov 19, 2007)

I am kind of stepping in sideways here (this thread is LONG, and Im lazy, so I just skimmed through. Forgive me if I missed good points from BOTH sides) but I would like to give my opinion on the initial thread, as a shop owner, AND as a consumer, since all of us are both.............we all buy STUFF.

I used to get upset when a consumer would ask me to price match something they found online, or accuse me of trying to rip them off. Its not like that at all, and I believe that most of the DIYer's on this forum do, in fact, understand markup, and WHY its in place. I also understand why people would buy the same thing cheaper............its cheaper. lol.

I only speak for myself here, but I do not get upset when someone brings me equipment they bought online to have installed. If I were in ANYONE elses shoes, I would do the same. I look for the best price on things too. The more money I save, the more I can put back towards a loan on a house, pay off bills, take care of my children, etc, etc. The only time I am offended now, is if someone says something bad about my store. NOT when I go out of my way for the customers that I do have. I break my neck for my clients, as do MANY other B&M's that IM associated with. If I dont, then I have NOTHING to offer them. In a price driven PLANET, then service and knowledge is ALL we have.

I used to blame the manu's, after all, they give the access to the cons looking for a buck, but its not always there fault either. Sometimes it is a shop owner, or buying group, with alot of money, who can sell it fast, cheap, and make profits. They dont even care about car audio (the cons) but are business savy........but Im envious, more than angry. Im broke ****ers!! lol

Im a business owner for 2 reasons.

1. I LOVE this industry, and do not want to do ANYTHING else.

2. I WANT to make money.

Why else be in business, in ANY industry. I too am feeling the pinch of the economy, so I am currently in the process of moving the store where I have LESS overhead. I refuse to let it go belly up.....and I think I will do fine. But who do I blame?

Who can I blame? Im not at fault. Gas prices suck, the job market is pathetic, the rich get richer, and the poor continue to lose their ass. Ultimately, what I do, and how I do it, are up to me. But I havent thrown in the towel.

On a side note, I personally will remedy my dislikes about internet pricing. At my new location, I will NOT do outside labor. No liabilities, no problems, no headaches. Less money..............yeah.........................live longer and stress free..............HELL YEAH.

And if you guys want to DIY..........then do it. Alot of you do great work, and are enthusiasts. We love OUR music. And when you KNOW how to DIY, 75% of the excitement is being able to say, "I DID THAT"!!


----------



## Drifticon (Nov 20, 2007)

I'm with Mr. Andrew on this, I work for him, and he speaks the truth, if I could afford it I'd work for free, but I really just can't do it. I started out as a back yard, half ass DIY-er, and the knowledge that I've gained in the past year from Andy and other shops is just incredible.

At first I was in it to get stuff cheaper (still kinda am), but now I love what I do, I really want to do this for the rest of my life, you're constantly learning and improving and products are always changing. But I've got to a point where I don't want to see the store go under, I feel as much responsible for what happens as much as old man Pendley (in a sense I am).

I think the "no outside labor" thing will be nice, but at the start we may have to do a little here and there to get things rolling.

As far as people that talk smack about our shop, that doesn't really bother me, but when there are other shops that thrash our reputation to make a sale, thats what peeves me. When a potential customer comes in and one of the first things to come out is well I heard from (RANDOM COMPETITORS SHOP NAME) that you guys f'd up my buddy's car. Or That other shop said that the stuff you guys sell is junk compared to the pawn shop crap that the other guys sell at your competition's shop. AhHHHHHHh that burns me up.


----------



## JMachan (Jul 3, 2008)

The cream rises to the top in tough times...evolve or become extinct...no?

The shops that offer the best service and price will survive. The others...well...it's sad from one point of view, but having worked for one, they've been essentially ripping people off for decades. We all know what the mark-ups are...and if you don't...you don't want to know.

Time to change the model to survive in coexistance with internet sails. Car dealerships make money off service more so than sales. The result? My dealership will pick my car up from my house or work for service...and I didn't even buy it there. They're still a rip-off if you're not under warrantee, but for that kind of service...

I'd pay good money for good work...but I got quoted $250 for fabricating a dash kit that I know would take next to no time to build for next to nothing in parts. I did a mock-up using an internet machine shop and could have bpractically uilt the thing out of silver for that price. ...and that was in the context of complete rewiring, installing 2 amps, dash speakers, door speakers, and XM receiver. So, I paid an extra 60 euro to have one sent to me from overseas and still saved money. Too bad...I would have paid them $100 to save the trouble and they still would have made money off of me off of that as well as a lot more the other work. I also found myself re-educating the sales person and installer about my vehicle (2007 Saab 93: no more fiber optic MOST system). So when they go under I won't shed a tear. I say re-educating because they were quite confident about what the install would take and how much it would cost...etc. I would have respected a simple "haven't worked on one of those before, but let's take a look."

I've had similar experiences with 1/2 dozen or more shops here in RI/MA and Ohio.

They've all quite willing to take advantage of people...the less experienced and assertive...the more they'll take. All those poor high school kids... You hear them in there snow-jobbing kids.

The one place that did god work and was quality oriented was not even a 12-volt shop...but the guy that did the work went onto bigger and better things. Haven't found a replacement and would be happy if I did. I'm sick of pulling my cars apart, but every time I let someone else do it I find cut corners...

Wow...I guess I didn't realize I was this ticked about it...


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> One day, automatic EQ will do a better job than 95% of tuners--professional or amateur and it'll make great sound available to everyone who wants it at a price they can afford.


I think you're being too modest, Andy. I think we're already there, for the most part, with the room correction routines from Audyssey, TacT, Meridian, and you guys. True, most of those aren't widely available in car yet, but they're certainly out there.


----------



## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

The one rule my boss kept pounding into my head when times are challenging was "control what you can control". That's it. Sure we could point fingers at everyone and everything...... But is the industry as a whole doing all it can do? I would say no.

Juan


----------



## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

arrivalanche said:


> Thats a big problem to. ANYONE can open a stereo shop, but there are few that are actually good at it and take pride in their craft. most shops are just a glorified swapmeet. They make the whole industry look stupid.


I don't know of any good shops within 50 miles of me. 

I don't even know of anyone within Michigan that would sell Dayton products, much less Rainbow, CDT, Morel, Hertz, Image Dynamics, or some of the other decent brands. There are a couple of Diamond dealers around here, and they charge through the wazoo for the new product. 

Example:

Diamond D6 silk component set - about $200 from Woofers.etc

Shop near my house - $499

Even if it was B-stock and I had to buy another set it is still worth it. 

Believe me, if there was a reputable shop in the area, I'd be all for going there.


----------



## CRD (Apr 23, 2008)

For me is only one thing SAVE MONEY. I have so bad experience with local shops that I prefer to risk buying online. 

My system cost me $1350 +/- online

On local stores over $3500+


----------



## installerman (May 26, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I don't buy much of this--especially the deal about no one caring about good sound.
> 
> Why is that? Because over the last 20 years we've taught most everyone that car audio shops are the people who make cars go boom and include a fiberglass monument to Zeus in the trunk. Nearly every shop that's still in business has demo cars to prove it. I can't remember the last time I went to a shop and asked to hear a demo car and heard something that's affordable and appeals to someone who isn't into boom or customization. Do we really need to demo a Scion XB with 12 12" woofers and 10kW or a competition car with no trunk, a fiberglass tub, kick panels that render the parking brake useless and a flip-up screen that blocks the air vents? What kid is going to be impressed by the Scion? Even if they are, they'll go find the cheapest BS woofers online and hack together a box in their backyard with chipboard. Why do they do that? Because they have no money. What adult will be impressed by the competition car? Hmmm..."I don't need a trunk or a parking brake..."


a lot of good points here, the problem is, once we start building our audison maybach demo car, the trouble will be getting the people that can afford that car with that sytem (the older generations) to swallow their pride and walk into the same shop that did their grandkids 91 honda accord with 3 pioneer 12's. we've got to find a way to appeal to those customers, but not lose the younger customers at the same time. no wonder everything's going badly for us. if anybody can figure out how to do this I think we all need to know it.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

installerman said:


> a lot of good points here, the problem is, once we start building our audison maybach demo car, the trouble will be getting the people that can afford that car with that sytem (the older generations) to swallow their pride and walk into the same shop that did their grandkids 91 honda accord with 3 pioneer 12's. we've got to find a way to appeal to those customers, but not lose the younger customers at the same time. no wonder everything's going badly for us. if anybody can figure out how to do this I think we all need to know it.


um, a good way to survive would be to save the cost of the Maybach, and keep it for working capital. Why on earth do a Maybach demo car unless someone else is totally footing the bill.

Maybe I'm missing something. I can't imagine ever getting in enough sales to justify the cost of that demo vehicle. How many people are really buying Maybach's with custom systems in them these days, and how many jobs would it take to truly cover the cost of that demo?

Again, maybe I'm missing a bigger picture or something.


----------



## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

run two stores... one highend and one entry level? must be a rich demographic there... I know a few people with ferraris and lambos here but never a maybach.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

installerman said:


> a lot of good points here, the problem is, once we start building our audison maybach demo car, the trouble will be getting the people that can afford that car with that sytem (the older generations) to swallow their pride and walk into the same shop that did their grandkids 91 honda accord with 3 pioneer 12's. we've got to find a way to appeal to those customers, but not lose the younger customers at the same time. no wonder everything's going badly for us. if anybody can figure out how to do this I think we all need to know it.


It's hard to believe that either grandpa in his Maybach or grandson in his Civic are going to be much of a market. It's not going to be the guy in the Lexus with the Mark Levinson stereo because that already sounds better than anything he has ever heard or is at least good enough for his 50 year old tastes. 

You need to appeal to the guy in the middle of that age spread - the old guys son and the kid's father. He might want a stealth system fror his Accord or navigation, satellite, etc. Maybe he just put his kid in that Civic and might be willing to buy something for that, but it isn't going to be an SPL monster either. Gotta make this guy in the middle and the occasional high net worth guy feel like they are in the right place. As has been said, targeting an 18 year old's extreme desires isn't going to bring money in the door. They don't have it and Pops isn't going to finance something that will distract junior while he is driving.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Attack eagle said:


> run two stores... one highend and one entry level? must be a rich demographic there... I know a few people with ferraris and lambos here but never a maybach.



Right, but my point is, if the store is footing the bill of this demo, then what is the over all cost to the store? How many people with expensive cars will have to open the checkbook to cover the cost of that demo? Big markup or not, it would probably take for ever to pay off. I know the economy is slow, but people with money are still spending if they want, but even then what is the true potential for that sort of install.

You'd have to have a rep to draw in work from all over North America & Canada to get enough install's I'd think. I mean, think Boyd, Foose, etc. They have the name power to pull in people, but otherwise, the demo vehicle alone would not do it, would it? 

But, if the demo were sponsored, it would be a different scenario, but even then is the Maybach itself going to be sponsored? 

I guess I just don't get it. In challenging times, why spend that kind of money. As much as people make fun, I think even Unique Autosports would be okay to do that sort of vehicle because they have the market reach through their television show to pull folks to their NJ location. You'd need lots of exposure to get that Maybach seen to draw the right projects in to make it pay off.

Google search shows a 2007 Maybach 62 S with $335k to $426k MSRP price range. Not sure what invoice on these would be, but it's a hella expensive car off the lot. Figure another $25k to $100k for a demo system to truly match the level of the car, and you've got half a million tied into the one demo. How many high end systems do you have to do to cover the cost of the demo at this point, and is it even possible for a shop that doesn't have world wide or country wide notoriety?

Heck, what do I know, I'm just thinking outloud.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

txbonds said:


> Right, but my point is, if the store is footing the bill of this demo, then what is the over all cost to the store? How many people with expensive cars will have to open the checkbook to cover the cost of that demo? Big markup or not, it would probably take for ever to pay off. I know the economy is slow, but people with money are still spending if they want, but even then what is the true potential for that sort of install.
> 
> You'd have to have a rep to draw in work from all over North America & Canada to get enough install's I'd think. I mean, think Boyd, Foose, etc. They have the name power to pull in people, but otherwise, the demo vehicle alone would not do it, would it?
> 
> ...


Hyperbole?


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> Hyperbole?


Are you asking me or telling me? LOL

My comments may be sensationalistic, but the point I'm trying to make still holds true.


----------



## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

dunno rudeboy... that seems to be where all the money being spent is. 
notice all the flashy/obnoxious crap that sells well
kicker L5 and l7, pioneer heads, jensen and dual dvd players, audiobahn chrome amps, etc.
Kids don't blink about spending their credit lines or the profits from their dope sales on car stereo equipment, they just want it cheap, loud, and visually obnoxious, because that is what you get 'points' (and rep/cred) for. 
Audison or audiobahn are worth the same number of points on a car show judging sheet. Outlandish looking installs are worth more than one that works well and is visually integrated with the car. Appearance of the install matters more than quality of construction... and they all think they deserve to be sponsored because their car is clean or freshly painted. Actual quality means little to them... and in turn, from the top down, that is what is emulated. 
Knew a kid locally that went to HIN shows all over the country in a bronze MkiV jetta, knockoff LV themed, with blaupunkt gear. Looked decent with the covers on, but he wanted the cheapest install possible in the shortest time frame... and changes always happened last 3 days based on what rumours he heard about other show participants changes. Whoever gave him the lowest price got the install, and if was hack, well who cares, it looked pretty to the judges. we did some good work on that car only to have ot choppedup and hacked over by himself or other hack shops. 
Seems like the only people interested in high quality, sound quality car audio in the more affluent middle age bracket are the ones that got into it as teen "when SQ was king/ IASCA days". the rest are more interested in home theatre, or just adding some screens to their car for less than the factory entertainment package price, or the latest electronic infotainment handheld...


That is just my impression based on seeing people's habits (buying, showing, and what they tell me when I ask why they chose a certain company's equipment or installation bay) out here.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Attack eagle said:


> dunno rudeboy... that seems to be where all the money being spent is.
> notice all the flashy/obnoxious crap that sells well
> kicker L5 and l7, pioneer heads, jensen and dual dvd players, audiobahn chrome amps, etc. Kids don't blink about spending their credit lines or the profits from their dope sales on car stereo equipment, they jsut want it cheap loud and visually obnoxious, becasue that is waht you get 'points' for. Audison or audiobahn are worth the same number of points on their car show judging sheet. Outlandish installs are worth more than one that works and is visually integrated with the car. Appearance of the install matters more than quality of construction. Actual sound quality means little to them... and in turn, from the top down, that is what is emulated.
> 
> ...


qfmft


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

_qfmft_

I guess I'm getting old, because I keep having to look all these acronyms up. LOL

Took me forever to finally google "ftw" to figure out what the heck everyone was saying. LOL


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Attack eagle said:


> dunno rudeboy... that seems to be where all the money being spent is.
> notice all the flashy/obnoxious crap that sells well
> kicker L5 and l7, pioneer heads, jensen and dual dvd players, audiobahn chrome amps, etc.
> ...


That may be where the money is being spent now, but according to the OP and others, there isn't enough money being spent to keep shops in business. I'm suggesting that to increase business, shops have to look for new business. To do that, the entire experience has to be tailored to fit a different demographic. If you sell chrome, people who want chrome are going to be the ones coming into your shop and they are going to tell you that they want chrome  I'm just guessing and I'm probably biased - if I had to deal with kids like you are describing, I'd shoot myself in the head


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

txbonds said:


> Are you asking me or telling me? LOL
> 
> My comments may be sensationalistic, but the point I'm trying to make still holds true.


I think you are absolutely correct. I was just suggesting that installerman may have been overstating things with the Maybach to make a point. Even so, high end systems in luxury cars may be the dream, but I doubt it can sustain too many shops.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> I think you are absolutely correct. I was just suggesting that installerman may have been overstating things with the Maybach to make a point. Even so, high end systems in luxury cars may be the dream, but I doubt it can sustain too many shops.


Ah, see, I missed that. I took his comments as being "for real". It's sometimes hard to pick up on the intent when you are reading it versus hearing it and seeing facial expressions and gestures.

Oh well.............


----------



## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

Rudeboy said:


> That may be where the money is being spent now, but according to the OP and others, there isn't enough money being spent to keep shops in business. I'm suggesting that to increase business, shops have to look for new business. To do that, the entire experience has to be tailored to fit a different demographic. If you sell chrome, people who want chrome are going to be the ones coming into your shop and they are going to tell you that they want chrome  I'm just guessing and I'm probably biased - if I had to deal with kids like you are describing, I'd shoot myself in the head


Agreed. I think they are going to have to pair down to one or two lines, band together in association with other indies to get better deals from the wholesalers on various lines (or to become wholesalers 'en masse' themselves dealing to their own stores). I mean get rid of most of the stock/ overhead, work on buying only when committed customer buys, become a middleman and facilitator instead of a regular retailer, like the low priced guy s are doing to steal your business.
Kids are willing to buy from you and wait a few days... if your price equals what they can get elsewhere shipped. J. I. T. instead of having tons of cash wrapped up & depreciating in stock rooms.

They will have to adjust to reality and just pare their operations down to where they can make money on the crap stuff, video, and psuedo SPL kids, while doing the occasional good for the soul quality install for someone who has time money and interest. 

( EX: i call bob to send me a pair of Hertz that he keeps in stock, our Umbrella company is authorized retailer, I just don't keep them in stock myself, when bob needs an audison amp, he calls me.)

I spend an hour a day in the car max, and 12-16 at home. 
_*You will have to convince the population, that the 1 hour in my car is worth as much or more $ for less sensory stimulation than what i can get for the same money and enjoy during the 16 hours at home. *_
pair of speakers vs a decently good HT. good head vs an HDTV or a laptop or new iphone and all it's gizmos, etc. I don't even think it is a convincing arguement myself.

NOw maybe go into the h20 market instead??? They don't have options and some sort of music is what people are used to hearing everywhere from an elevator to rockclimbing... except on the water. People with watercraft are affluent and are willing to spend large sums for occasional and infrequent use, and are NOT cutting back on buying yachts, etc. 
Also go into the office business and wire places for sat radio etc. You have electrical skills, use em profitably, don't limit yourself to one environment.

I hope you get my drift, and not being mean, but most people see little value per dollar for car audio vs other entertainment. iIt isn't like when cd (or sat radio) first came out and you needed to go to the car audio store to buy a new radio and new speakers to listen to it... because factory at the car lot was a lot more. You can now buy that at walmart while shopping for groceries IF your car doesnt have it already.


To be honest I;ve been sitting on about 1/2 the needed gear for a year or two without buying more or installing anything in my DD. 
no need for it. nowhere to show it, nowhere to use it anymore. Can't even go cruise the strip for the last 7 years and show off a wee bit. it is illegal to even cruise. Can't crank it at a regular car show, (can't even turn it on at most!), so WTF is the point? More risk (theft) than reward (listening to 3 CD tracks on the way to school, 3 tracks home ). Got to concentrate on fighting traffic, anyway.


Anyway, that's my long take on it. the entire industry must change focus, and either change markets from auto to watercraft, or assimilate into conglomerates to lean down costs...or just cinch up and ride it out, or call it quits and go on to something that uses your skillsets and is in more demand as your primary job... HT prewiring & install, install office audio prewiring, something that isn't in the automotive arena, while doing that for bonus cash or to stay busy.


----------



## JMachan (Jul 3, 2008)

It's just marketing...it's not a difficult problem to solve...the knowledge is out there. It's just difficult to solve in a way that keeps 12V employees happy. Pick your market and throw out your own wishes. You want to be a rebel? Go ahead. I can respect that, but own it enough to die a rebel's death without whining about it. A few of my own thoughts...some are practical some probably aren't:

1) Find a way to demo in the customer's car...we did this with subs in a shop worked for in college...that's an easy one. Bench amp+Sub in a box+long wires+radio station. That was the best sales tool I ever had for subwoofers with adults. It allowed them to see that subwoofers could be about rounding out the bottom end, too...not just that punk kid booming all over the neighborhood. I bet some of you creative folks could easily do something similar with other loactions with pods or something. Caveats will abound, but it will still make the point...and may even lead to up-selling them on something like an amp when the speaker replacement isn't quite good enough.
2) Dress the part...I hate this one, but it's probably true...have clean and professional looking uniforms. The tatoos and torn off sleves impress the high school rebel, but not the middle-upper class adults. It might work to get the 1/10k big job with the rich guy matching your look, but there are a lot more middle-upper class people. Get them and you get volume. I wear a shirt and tie every day to get my foot in the door with people that shut out anyone who doesn't look like that. Put together a good looking comfortable polo with black tactical pants or something. Make it functional, but clean.
3) Let the products speak for themselves. ...OR get good sales training. Learn more than how to peer pressure high school kids. You pitches should change as you measure your customer. Nothing turns off an adult more than being told they should like something they don't or vise versa. If they like the crap...let them buy it...and do it with curtesy. You don't have to tell them it's the best stuff, but you should let them be the judge of teh cost:benefit. You know how all this works...once they get the bug, they'll want the good stuff. Offer an upgrade program. There's enough mark-up in a lot of this stuff to make that fly. It's a win-win.
4) Make it easy...my car dealership is picking up my car at work for service next week and givng me a loaner. That's why THEY're doing the service. That's probably not paractical, but it's the direction you want to move. Adults have careers and lives that are not all about car audio, though they may love it. Their priorities are family and work...it's tought to tell your boss you need to take time off to drop your car off to have someone install a stereo...or have to deal with using 1 car for both you and your spouse, coordinating often confliciting schedules. The same dealership also runs a shuttle...which may be a bit more practical. It could also become the "demo" vehicle...but make sure you play the customer's music.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

To follow along your final point, I think the biggest thing most retailers miss is not having flexible hours. This applys to everything from the halmark store to the hair cut place to the stereo shop. Nothing pisses me off more than a store that is only open 8-5, M-F, and may even close or be short staffed during traditional lunch hours 11-1.

I work for a living, and as described below, when I'm not at work I'm with my family. I have schedules to keep, that involve picking up children, meeting and delivering items to clients, etc. I work in a highly professional field, and being out to deal with car stereo would be a big no no. Most people only have so much vacation time to take, and it is hit or miss to take vacation time to depend on a shop to get something done for you.

So, the shops and stores that don't realize most people in this world are simply not able to shop during normal business hours because they are at work too, are missing the boat. Why do you think Walmart is always busy at midnight. People work the late shift and get off at 11 am, but they need stuff too. 

If I were an audio store, I would definately consider weekend hours and evening hours. Ever try to go to the dealership parts department on the weekend? Many and most are closed. It's ludicrous.

Anyway, if you want to get us working folk, middle class people, in to your shop, have install and sales hours that match our available time. Have sales people as noted below that actually listen to what we say we want, and try to provide it. Don't try to sell me something I don't want, because I've got no peer pressure, and I'm not buying it unless I think I want it for me. Who cares what anyone else thinks. I'm doing this at my age for me.

Just my thoughts, but it drives me nuts to no end that I have to take time off from work to make it to some stores that are only open during 8-12 and 1 to 5.





JMachan said:


> It's just marketing...it's not a difficult problem to solve...the knowledge is out there. It's just difficult to solve in a way that keeps 12V employees happy. Pick your market and throw out your own wishes. You want to be a rebel? Go ahead. I can respect that, but own it enough to die a rebel's death without whining about it. A few of my own thoughts...some are practical some probably aren't:
> 
> 1) Find a way to demo in the customer's car...we did this with subs in a shop worked for in college...that's an easy one. Bench amp+Sub in a box+long wires+radio station. That was the best sales tool I ever had for subwoofers with adults. It allowed them to see that subwoofers could be about rounding out the bottom end, too...not just that punk kid booming all over the neighborhood. I bet some of you creative folks could easily do something similar with other loactions with pods or something. Caveats will abound, but it will still make the point...and may even lead to up-selling them on something like an amp when the speaker replacement isn't quite good enough.
> 2) Dress the part...I hate this one, but it's probably true...have clean and professional looking uniforms. The tatoos and torn off sleves impress the high school rebel, but not the middle-upper class adults. It might work to get the 1/10k big job with the rich guy matching your look, but there are a lot more middle-upper class people. Get them and you get volume. I wear a shirt and tie every day to get my foot in the door with people that shut out anyone who doesn't look like that. Put together a good looking comfortable polo with black tactical pants or something. Make it functional, but clean.
> ...


----------



## JMachan (Jul 3, 2008)

Can I get an "AMEN"?


----------



## installerman (May 26, 2008)

txbonds said:


> um, a good way to survive would be to save the cost of the Maybach, and keep it for working capital. Why on earth do a Maybach demo car unless someone else is totally footing the bill.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something. I can't imagine ever getting in enough sales to justify the cost of that demo vehicle. How many people are really buying Maybach's with custom systems in them these days, and how many jobs would it take to truly cover the cost of that demo?
> 
> Again, maybe I'm missing a bigger picture or something.


wow. way to totally miss the point on purpose. I don't care about buying a maybach to do it up. what I mean is that demoing a 91 civic is not going to interest anybody at all older than what, 30? probably younger. I mean that we should be looking at slightly more high end cars than hondas all the time. like hjoly **** it's been done. 100's of 1000's of times. 

I don't care about buying a maybach to do it up, I care about the market segment driving the nicer cars, the ones who have nicer tastes, the ones who ARE (unlike pretty well ALL of our customers) actually looking for that 20 thousand dollar stereo. 

it doesn't need to be as elaborate as that but we need to get the people driving the better than average cars actually interested in our products and work, otherwise when all the 91 hondas are scrapped, we'll have no customers left


----------



## installerman (May 26, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Oh, and how does this relate to "the ultimate consequences of buying online"? When you eliminate margin, you eliminate the money necessary to pay for R&D.


sorry to go so far back now, but I disagree with the point your making here. of course it's a valid point but it seems that todays products are proving quite the opposite. the RnD has been able to improve stereos to the point where we no longer need an external crossover or equalizer for one right off the bat. that's a little further back of course, but ten to fifteen years ago we wouldn't dream of putting together a stereo without one of each of those.

secondly let's look specifically at alpine. not everybody is a big fan of alpine, I must say I am, mostly due to their innovation in the last 5 years of less. things like pulsetouch, ai-net, Imprint, the h701 and predecessing processors are all incredible ideas that obviously took a TON of research to be able to offer.

let's also look at other companies like focal, CDT, Morel, JL and kicker, all offering true subwoofers 6.5" and under. imagine the research invested in making that size of speaker play naturally like that. all to bring the soundstage further forward.

not that I disagree that buying online eliminates margin, but it seems the RnD has gotten along fine with the existence of these online stores anyways.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

We make 4" subwoofers. Almost any speaker can be a sub in the right box, with the right filtering and the right amount of power. My point is that nothing is free. A hundred people buying high-end stuff online isn't a market and won't support the engineering required to provide innovatibe products. If the internet makes having a high-end car stereo store a losing business proposition and eliminates the rest of the market for upscale goods, car audio will be back to making home and pro speakers work in cars. 

It's a shame that people are so short-sighted that they think that the best they can do is to get something for nothing. What's the matter with paying a few more dollars for something so that the industry that supports you hobby can advance and so other people can eat and send their kids to school?


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> A hundred people buying high-end stuff online isn't a market and won't support the engineering required to provide innovatibe products. If the internet makes having a high-end car stereo store a losing business proposition and eliminates the rest of the market for upscale goods, car audio will be back to making home and pro speakers work in cars.


Well, a case could be made that today even with whatever number of shops that there isn't a market that supports the engineering required for innovative products. The proof is the astounding dearth of such products. Really, outside of you guys, Alpine, JL Audio, and Rockford Fosgate there isn't much novel and interesting out there that couldn't have been on the market in 2000 if not even in 1985. 

And an awful lot of the stuff that you innovators do is more or less making home/pro stuff work in cars, whether it's Alpine rebadging Audyssey's MultEQ XT and putting a 12V power supply on B&O's amp modules, or you tweaking the JBL Pro Vertec-series subwoofer platform for the GTI-line subs.

Moreover, with modern technology it's really easy to make home and pro stuff work in cars. Have a midbass with a great linear motor and suspension, but too strong a motor (low Qts) for decent extension on its own? That's what DSP's are for! 

IMO, and not to minimize some of the great car-marketed speakers and subwoofers such as your GTI line, but really it seems to me where the existence of a car-fi industry is remotely relevant to enthusiasts is in the continued development of compact and powerful 12V processors and amplifiers. And given that OEM's need that stuff, too, for their ever-improving stock systems, that does not seem to be a strong rationale for supporting mediocre local dealers. Aftermarket car-fi is always going to be basically unnecessary for that kind of R&D work. You would know better than I do, but I'd be shocked if aftermarket car-fi accounts for 5% the revenues that actual innovators such as Harman derive from OEM car audio.


----------



## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

Inability to adjust to a changing market is why these people are going out of business. It's not good enough to just specialize in audio anymore. 

I personally do not feel bad for buying the same product at a lower price. Often times i can either get a warranty as well, or the item for half the price... virtually eliminating the need for coverage. 

To the people who have lost their livelihood or dont like the way the industry is headed... i'm sorry. This is progress and change.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

BUT, JBL Professional supports their dealers BIG TIME! You can't buy a high-end product mail-order, you HAVE to go to a dealer or a rep that will HEAVILY consider pricing. The R&D on the drivers comes from that, there is NO OEM pro market, it IS OEM, with maybe the exception of some JBL HF drivers which I believe Adamson is no longer using the 2451  There is a reason JBL does not sell a recone kit to anyone other than a service center and is VERY strict about this, not only to improve dealer relations but to ensure quality control not only int he recone procedure but in failure analysis.

A dealer is NOT a bad thing, a bad dealer is a horrible thing. I took care of my people when I worked for a dealer, JBL took care of me, my customers appreciated that. sometimes I hate Harman, more often I stand behind their thinking and morale.

Chad


----------



## JMachan (Jul 3, 2008)

Adapt or die...guilt trips are for moms, not marketers. We're not talking about R&D for curing cancer. Let's not exaggerate the costs. Those that can do good R&D and keep costs reasonable will do better than those that try to milk us. That's the new model. Sorry 'bout that. Eventually the market will find its homeostasis. The point is that we've really been getting ripped off for decades and the pendulum has begun to swing.


----------



## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> It's a shame that people are so short-sighted that they think that the best they can do is to get something for nothing. What's the matter with paying a few more dollars for something so that the industry that supports you hobby can advance and so other people can eat and send their kids to school?


Wait, there's something better than getting something for nothing? 

I just bought a Zapco amp for $200. I feel damn good about it too, in fact I'm glad no one else got my $. I spent what I saved on a months worth of groceries.

And yet, while a young man quietly buys an amp on ebay instead of his local shop, I go to Streetnoyz in San Diego and find their huge garage is full of exotic cars waiting for installs. Looks like high end car audio is a profitable business proposition. In fact, while he wanted $1300 for a set of kickpanels, he charged me $26.50 out the door for a Symbilink transmitter. Figure that one out


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

JMachan said:


> Adapt or die...guilt trips are for moms, not marketers. We're not talking about R&D for curing cancer. Let's not exaggerate the costs. Those that can do good R&D and keep costs reasonable will do better than those that try to milk us. That's the new model. Sorry 'bout that. Eventually the market will find its homeostasis. The point is that we've really been getting ripped off for decades and the pendulum has begun to swing.


Yep, it swung our productioin over to China to cut costs to provide dem online deals!


----------



## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

BlueSQ said:


> In fact, while he wanted $1300 for a set of kickpanels, he charged me $26.50 out the door for a Symbilink transmitter. Figure that one out


Shops are willing to haggle on a small accesory product.....not labor....which affects him...here in the now.....he could have been sitting on that cable for YEARS.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

chad said:


> Yep, it swung our productioin over to China to cut costs to provide dem online deals!


http://www.newsweek.com/id/111027

With China's new labor laws that came into effect at the begining of the year, I'm guessing it's not long before we see one of two things. Either another country mass producing goods as cheaply as possible, or Prices on things going up due to increased chinese labor or moving production back to the US.


----------



## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

chad said:


> Yep, it swung our productioin over to China to cut costs to provide dem online deals!



But CHad....car audio is a niche market. 

The cost of labor and the tax structure makes it prohibitive to do business in the USA....this is why production has shifted overseas.

Whats made in the USA nowadays?

Aviation parts.....cars...plastic products....and YES I'm sure I missed a few so no splitting hairs on this one. 

All I know is when I see *MADE IN THE USA* I'm SHOCKED! It gives me PRIDE but I'm nonetheless shocked!

The aviation parts are largely funded by the US government.

When Pratt and Whitney and HAmilton Sunstrand....who are BOTH in my backyard.... does a huge layoff it's when they lose military contracts....that speaks VOLUMES.

The fact is that investors money is not in the US anymore...it's in Asia......the same as it was in the US in the early 20th century. 

And that all started drying up in the 50's/60's.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

BlueSQ said:


> And yet, while a young man quietly buys an amp on ebay instead of his local shop, I go to Streetnoyz in San Diego and find their huge garage is full of exotic cars waiting for installs. Looks like high end car audio is a profitable business proposition. In fact, while he wanted $1300 for a set of kickpanels, he charged me $26.50 out the door for a Symbilink transmitter. Figure that one out





GlasSman said:


> Shops are willing to haggle on a small accesory product.....not labor....which affects him...here in the now.....he could have been sitting on that cable for YEARS.


$1300 seem's a little high for kick panels, but not if they're being sanded down smooth to paint, and if the price included paint, resin and all other materials, and if they had to relocate anything that was in the way of the kicks. Keep in mind, Labor on custom fab'd pieces like that is kind of like trying to price out a paint job for your car. You can't always say that a 5k paint job is a rip off, or that the $199 Maaco special is a great deal. There are differences in the quality of the work here.


----------



## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

*Not sure how I missed this topic. As from experience of managing a shop for a few years, and now owning an online shop for almost as long, I have seen it from both sides. Online sales are not killing the industry, it is an evolutionary step. The internet has provided people with access to much more information (be it positive or way wrong, but it still gives a much greater wealth of choices and information then a few mom & pop shops or even the all mighty best buy). 

The quality of information and install provided in brick and mortar shops have dropped a great deal. Is it the fault of the internet? I am sure plenty believe that, and it can be debated, but it cannot be proven because of too many factors as the industry changes and grows. In a way, online shops may force people to learn more because they want to do the install on their own, and the negative visa-versa POV is true.

More and more companies are moving to over seas build houses to either increase margins or keep margins based on rising material costs. Not sure if the metaphor was mentioned before, but do people think places like Autotrader has killed used car dealer ships? 

It is the next step, it is the nature of many facets of life, evolve to survive.*


----------



## saMxp (Jun 22, 2007)

Well said, denim. 

This is what makes "Do It Yourself Mobile Audio" so popular. You start off cutting some MDF to make a subwoofer box in High School and before you know it, you are sitting at your laptop with a reference microphone, trying to figure out how to do impulse measurements.
Who do I have to thank for this advance in my own knowledge? The web. No Brick and Mortar shop would dream of spending any more than a few minutes discussing things with me unless I was willing to spend big bucks. Times have changed.


----------



## X Ray (Oct 29, 2007)

I don't mean to sound like a dick, but I've never had a job that I enjoyed. Ok, I take that back, I was a male dancer at one point, and bangin chics in the bathroom every night was pretty fun.  Oh, ****....ok, then I had a job were I was security for these two smokin hot strippers that would do bachelor parties. They would get but naked and eat each other all night. and then come back to my pad and crash out. Hee hee! Ok, that was a REALLY cool job! Hahaha!! 

Ok, ****, I can't argue the "get a real job like everyone else" side of things, so I'll just state why I won't buy from a shop:

1) They usually don't carry what I want, so I have no choice but to order online.
2) If they do have what I want, it's much more expensive than online, and I have to pay sales tax on top of the higher price. 
3) I don't NEED a shops services.
4) Alot of shop employees are scum bags! I had about 3 different people tell me that my sales person (15 years ago) was selling my address and license plate number to people who wanted to steal my ****! If I ever see that ****er again, I'll break his ****ing arms off!


----------



## X Ray (Oct 29, 2007)

You know what, let me ask this? How the hell do the online stores get the merchandise? From the manufacturer? From a distributor? Are the online stores the distributor?


----------



## X Ray (Oct 29, 2007)

*double post*


----------



## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

[4) Alot of shop employees are scum bags! I had about 3 different people tell me that my sales person (15 years ago) was selling my address and license plate number to people who wanted to steal my ****! If I ever see that ****er again, I'll break his ****ing arms off![/QUOTE]

I've heard a LOT of stories about this kind of thing happening, even with expensive alarms with great installs... I know one guy who had his alarm brain mounted to the firewall behind the dash, and paid extra for it so nobody could disable the alarm brain. 3 days later his entire system was stolen, and the alarm brain was stolen from underneath the dash... and who could have known it was there except the people who installed it?


----------



## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

I know people are making the jump from online to China, but they have been making stuff in China before there was an internet. The manufacturers frankly don't make money on retail sales anyway, they make it on selling it to dealers. So an online retailer at 10% over cost and a brick and mortar at 100% over cost still give the manufacturer the same amount of profit if they paid the same price.

Juan


----------



## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

There are so many factors killing the corner audio shop that discussing it here is just a waste of time. But oh well I'm bored so let me count the ways.

1) People shop at Walmart for a reason. The car audio industry isn't sheltered from big-box store low prices just like your local mom+pop hardware store isn't sheltered from a Home Depot that is 20 minutes away.

2) The age of the retail sales expert is over. If you are good at selling car audio, chances are you're better at selling medical instruments...guess which makes more money?

3) Cars come apart much easier than before and with lots of help online, people can learn to install a pair of speakers and a head unit in their Honda Civic in the amount of time it takes for them to drive to a store and schedule an appointment.

4) Mid to high end cars have brand-name audio systems that often rival entry level aftermarket components, making the meat of the car audio sales industry run dry.

5) Integrated audio and nav systems with steering wheel controls make it difficult for people to do even a simple head unit upgrade without replacing half their dash and spending a fortune.

6) The money people would have spent on audio gear in the past is now spent on remote-starters, alarms, and GPS units (items that weren't as popular or didn't exist a decade ago). Companies that sell this stuff in addition to audio gear should ride the tide well but local shops that aren't willing to spend 85% of their day installing remote starters are going to fall under the radar.


----------



## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

denim said:


> *Not sure how I missed this topic. As from experience of managing a shop for a few years, and now owning an online shop for almost as long, I have seen it from both sides. Online sales are not killing the industry, it is an evolutionary step. The internet has provided people with access to much more information (be it positive or way wrong, but it still gives a much greater wealth of choices and information then a few mom & pop shops or even the all mighty best buy).
> 
> The quality of information and install provided in brick and mortar shops have dropped a great deal. Is it the fault of the internet? I am sure plenty believe that, and it can be debated, but it cannot be proven because of too many factors as the industry changes and grows. In a way, online shops may force people to learn more because they want to do the install on their own, and the negative visa-versa POV is true.
> 
> ...


*
Very well said DEnim...VERY well said.*


----------



## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

There are a few car audio specific manufacturers that I feel are doing a great job and I support them consistently. These are the companies that are taking the time to design/build their own drivers, put the necessary research into their product and take the design as far as possible. I make a big point to buy from these companies when they have a product that meets my needs and when I do I buy their equipment authorized from a dealer. 

The biggest thing that turns me off of the car audio market today is the subpar quality of *most* products offered for the money, and it's made that much worse due to the lack of objective testing for "high end" car audio products. If the information isn't posted, I automatically assume it isn't what it's cracked up to be. If I want to prove I built a high performance engine, I know I'd rather show somebody a dyno sheet than blabber on about engine modifications and their supposed benefits. Do you think Adire Audio, RE, and other companies that got started by the internet and word of mouth would actually have gotten as popular as they did had they not posted BL curves and dumax reports of XBL^2 woofers compared to the best of the best that the car audio world had to offer? The truth is the majority of car audio equipment can't run with today's home/pro audio middle of the line drivers and the manufacturers know it. A trip through the SEAS Prestige or Peerless lineup can walk all over 99% of the car audio speakers on the market provided you are competent with a crossover design (competent, not even phenomenal). 

Personally I think subjectivism is the only thing that keeps garbage products and garbage manufacturers in the market at their particular price points. It's also the only reason that companies can become completely stagnant and still bring in big profits. If you were to ask a shop, or even a car audio company, to provide some meaningful testing of their products, 5% of them might offer you something meaningful while others will shy away from the topic because they know the product they're pushing isn't worth what it costs. A lack of objective test results will generally exist when either a lack of knowledge is present or when objective tests give them (or would give you) an answer they/you don't want to hear. "Forget what it measures like, just _trust your ears_" they say, or "measurements don't tell the whole story". If measurements don't explain how a driver performs, it's because you weren't looking at the right measurements. On the subjectivist side of the fence, first impressions of speakers are generally wrong, especially in short demos just due to the nature of human hearing. People flock to what sounds different, not what sounds better, high levels of distortion, mismatched componentry and horrible crossover design often accomplishes this quite well. Subjectivism has a place, but it's place should occur after you've went through the qualifying process of determining which systems deliver the performance you're willing to accept. After that point you can subjectively determine which qualities are most preferable to your personal taste. Most car audio companies don't offer the information necessary to make a qualified decision, and that to me is a huge turnoff.


----------



## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

"A lot of B&M shops are shady...scumbags...don't know what they're doing..."

... seems to be the highlight of this thread. 

What makes anyone think the online unauthorized 'retailers' know any more??

Buy it for price, you really don't care about the product. Simple; I suggest learning the word.

Contradictory, indeed.:blush:


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

wow this thread is still going? lol so have we come to any kind of overall point or is it as worthless as i said this debate was going to be on diyma


----------



## saMxp (Jun 22, 2007)

chuyler1 said:


> There are so many factors killing the corner audio shop that discussing it here is just a waste of time. But oh well I'm bored so let me count the ways.


Well said, brotha.
Particularly:


chuyler1 said:


> 4) Mid to high end cars have brand-name audio systems that often rival entry level aftermarket components, making the meat of the car audio sales industry run dry.


So very true. The days of a 10-disc CD changer and 4 six buh nines are over. 



chuyler1 said:


> 5) Integrated audio and nav systems with steering wheel controls make it difficult for people to do even a simple head unit upgrade without replacing half their dash and spending a fortune.


Although steering wheel interfaces are taking care of the control portion, at least.


----------



## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

chuyler1 said:


> There are so many factors killing the corner audio shop that discussing it here is just a waste of time. But oh well I'm bored so let me count the ways.
> 
> 2) The age of the retail sales expert is over. If you are good at selling car audio, chances are you're better at selling medical instruments...guess which makes more money?


Well, for the most part it's because of the pay. Car Audio pays like crap for the majority of people.



> 3) Cars come apart much easier than before and with lots of help online, people can learn to install a pair of speakers and a head unit in their Honda Civic in the amount of time it takes for them to drive to a store and schedule an appointment.


There is more help, but the cars are put together better, with tighter tolerances and lighter and cheaper plastic. So not as easy as you think.



> 4) Mid to high end cars have brand-name audio systems that often rival entry level aftermarket components, making the meat of the car audio sales industry run dry.


Mid to high? Pretty much most cars have what used to be an option on a high end car as standard (a CD player, speakers, satellite radio option, on star, etc.). 



> 5) Integrated audio and nav systems with steering wheel controls make it difficult for people to do even a simple head unit upgrade without replacing half their dash and spending a fortune.


Don't forget the digital bus systems. Even when stuff physically drops in, electronically you might still have a way to go.

[/quote]
6) The money people would have spent on audio gear in the past is now spent on remote-starters, alarms, and GPS units (items that weren't as popular or didn't exist a decade ago). Companies that sell this stuff in addition to audio gear should ride the tide well but local shops that aren't willing to spend 85% of their day installing remote starters are going to fall under the radar.[/quote]


> I would argue that the proliferation of keyless entry and the recent milder than normal winters and summers are playing a roll as well.
> 
> Installed GPS is just such a niche compared to portable, so who knows.
> 
> Juan


----------



## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

OldOneEye said:


> Well, for the most part it's because of the pay. Car Audio pays like crap for the majority of people.
> Juan


*Hahahahaha so true. $0 = crap.*


----------



## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

I buy online simply because I have to - very few car audio shops here, and the ones that do exist don't stock what I want. I'll bet you'd find few car audio shops in the US too that stock Seas tweets, Silver-Flute midbass drivers and Adire Audio subwoofers . Right now I'm still trying to find a good replacement for those Shivas - 12" drivers with the right combination of price and performance, and actually met their advertised T/S parameters...


----------



## BintheD (Sep 22, 2008)

BEAVER said:


> Times are tough and consumers are hurting just as bad as these shops are. Why pay more at a shop when you'll be doing the install yourself?
> 
> Good shops are few and far betwwen. If there was one in my area that actually provided the benefits you've listed, I would probably buy more from them. As it stands, I buy the majority of my stuff on-line and a few select items from one local retailer.


Ditto


----------



## Pantani (Jul 17, 2008)

Mooble said:


> Price is a big factor, yes, but not the only factor.
> 
> Reasons why I don't go to shops...
> 
> ...


^This

Also in regards to this quote,


arrivalanche said:


> have you ever tested that warranty? I've hear the same story and they dont usually end with any positive results. Now dont get me wrong, some shady shops are the same way to. Once they get your money they dont give a crap what you want or what problems you have. You just have to be smart about where you go.


... the word of mouth passed around by informed consumers carries alot of weight. We know who the bad and the good are in terms of what retailers and manufactures take care of their online customers and those who don't.


----------



## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I'm surprised at how few shops take advantage of the online market themselves. Most of the shops near me don't have websites or have websites that look like they were put in a time capsule around 1998. Get your installs online (provided you have permission from your customers), get your product offering online, promote your store and skills on forums, and purchase targeted advertising on local sites. In short, show people that you can do it better than them. It doesn't cost that much to throw some photos and info up on a website these days.


----------



## backotruck (Jul 18, 2008)

That's exactly it! A business must adapt or die. Just like an animal. If it snows, and you don't have fur you'd better know how to fly south. It sucks that Mom and Pop places are going out of business, but the businesses online are also Mom and Pop business that have adapted (unless is Best Buy or Curcuit city).


----------



## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

arrivalanche said:


> Now working in the car audio industry for the past 10+ years I can definitely see what ebay and other online stores have done to the industry. I just wanted to get an impression if you DIYers know the consequences of bypassing your local shops. I have personally seen almost half of the stable shops go under the last few years and talking to reps and other shops you hear the same thing, "sales just aren't there." I know the economy is bad anymore but I just see it wrong how people dont support their local shop of choice. Dont you realize that you get a lot more than a higher price for your equipment? You get a warranty that you cant get if you buy it online through unauthorized dealers, not to mention the convenience of having it in stock that day. I just feel that if everyone continues to cut out the middle man they wont be there when you need them, and that it will ultimately effect the brands themselves. I know everyone is looking for the best price, but ultimately it comes at a price to many people. Feel free to give me your opinion.


I've seen too many "Pro shops" with their butcher installs, yielding piss poor results on top dollar gear. I wouldn't be able to piece together an SQ or flashy show trophy winner, but I know enough to steer clear of these places.



I have purchased everything from flea market brand gear to semi high end goodies, I've built boxes, tuned and installed (sometimes correctly, other times not s'much) Self taught with much much more to learn, yet I still got/get better results than the locals I've been exposed to thus far.(Mind you, with cheaper gear compared to what the locals are using down here) 

Not to worry though, from what I see there are countless Boobs with money to burn giving these places plenty of business. Lambos, Hummers, Ferraris all being nicely hacked by this one shop in particular. 

I sat in this one Lambo, listened for about 10 seconds before I couldn't stand it anymore, it hurt my ears, it was so distorted. A mixture of envy and anger for both the shop owner and the Lambo owner quickly welled up in me. 
The shop owner was being envied because he was getting paid for committing murder. The Lambo owner? Envied for obvious reasons. Angered with him for being a dumbass with Gigabucks, too stupid to know what a good system sounds like. Why him and not me? LOL! 

Back to the shop owner. Pffftt! I mean, this guy did nothing but attempt to tune a hacked install. He had the enclosures made by another shop, had his butchers install everything (broken tabs on interior pieces and such) did the worst job tuning and got paid Gigabucks by a happy customer that brings in his buddies for more butchering! 

Flashy looking installs makes these idiots happy I suppose. 

Broken tabs? Nothing a bit of stealthily applied superglue won't fix or hide. SQ is definitely taking a backseat in this one particular shop. 

I can't speak for all as I don't get out much, I'm new here in SOFLO, I'm sure there are good shops (none I am familiar with) but there are also far too many hacks aplenty. 

I don't know an honest shop that does good work nor one that doesn't overcharge for equipment. Show me a spot and maybe I'll pay them for their time. 

I mean no offense in any of this. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## LiquidClen (Dec 27, 2005)

I have personally had bad luck at almost every shop I've ever been too. That being said, a lot of the reason why people are moving away from brick and mortar stores is because they have nothing to offer... Higher prices, bad service, why WOULD you want to go there?


----------



## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

All of the Mom and Pop shops around here cater to the 'mid-fi' boom and doom crowd. They would not know SQ if it bit them in the ass. I don't buy the crap about 'service' ...I had rather buy good quality equipment that doesn't need 'service' to begin with.

>^..^<


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

lust4sound said:


> Show me a spot and maybe I'll pay them for their time.
> QUOTE]
> 
> PM Here-I-Come (think that's the user name). Guy owns a shop down in South Florida I think and is a member on here. No clue about their work, but would be a good place to start for a shop in your area. I think his name is Mark Brooks, but again I could be mistaken.
> ...


----------



## caver50 (Sep 2, 2007)

Well for me it's just money. I know a shop that does good work but they are very expensive. No shop will have all the speakers I want to hear. I could travel from shop to shop and still not hear all the speakers I want to hear.


----------



## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Adapt or die, take your business online!


----------



## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

lust4sound said:


> I've seen too many "Pro shops" with their butcher installs, yielding piss poor results on top dollar gear. I wouldn't be able to piece together an SQ or flashy show trophy winner, but I know enough to steer clear of these places.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will have to agree with you. Most of the shop here really know nothing about installing high-end gear and could care less about how it sounds. I also agree on a lot of them being butchers. I have redone and fix many of the other shops around here work. I have always done my best and go out of my way for my customers. I know my work is top notch and I have never had a problem with taking something apart to show my work.


As former shop Co-owner I have had my problem with a couple of customers as any shop has, but honestly it was nothing I did, I just was the one trying to fix the problem *(MORE THE FORMER PSRT LATER!!!) *. I tried to give my customer high-end products at great prices, but the problem here in SOFLO is, customer’s knowledge of the products. I have said this before; I pride myself in giving my customers the best products for the least amount of money. I recommended raw drivers to my customers all the time, but being in Miami where Kicker and JL is Kings, and the dam flea market was around the corner along with 4 other shops, it hard enough to sell what are consider as boutique brands, because people have never heard of them, let alone raw drivers, that to the untrained eye looks cheap to the customer. I have let customers hear Dayton and some Peerless/Vifa setups, the first thing they say is it sound good, but who is this company and as great as it sounds, guess what, they still will not buy it. Why, they just don't know enough about them, and it has been install and drilled in their heads Kicker and JL is king and if it does not have bling or shine it isn't worth the money, even if it’s cheaper. I have notice of late FI has gain a little ground here. I have done a few installs with their stuff; these are the few guys that hang around the net.

Making it loud is what is what 80-90% of the customer here want when they came into the shop, until I set them down and talk with them and try to make them understand the benefit of having a nice sounding front stage to balance the sound out, but most think I was just trying to make more money off of them, then I have let them hear a install that is both loud and the clean, to help them see that they can have the best of both worlds. But then they would rather go to the Flea market and buy 6 pairs of cheap coax and have them install them all over the car and a pair of marine coax in put them in the front grille and think it sounds good.

We invested a ton of money to make our shop look like no other custom shop in Miami. I mean my shop in the front looks like a dam lounge, with custom made over size seating, 50" Flat screen, the display is custom build. High end tile/carpet floors. My partner's dad is an interior designer and a very good. I go out of my way to make my customer experience at my shop a great one. 

Man I even did free cars show. I had local entertainment such as rap groups, singers come out to put on show. I even had Motorcycle riders come out and but on shows. I gave out free food to all cars show entries and there families. I did free give aways and give out t-shirts. I encouraged people not to just look at our install, but to get in a take listen so they can hear the difference, but guess what our rep was around here, we are know for doing just about the best custom install around, but we are expensive, why because we sell boutique brands and only did mostly custom work. It was just not a true statement, as most of the customers learned once they come into the shop and talk with me. Our prices were as low or lower then even the big mean stream stores, even on higher end gear. I even id Boots at trade shows such as DUB and HIN shows. We didn't attend one show where at least one of my customer's cars has not won an award and when they won it has not been any lower then second.

I also told my customers do some research to educate yourself so you can make an educate decision on your product buying. I had a ton of people bring products from eBay and I mean stuff I have never heard of. I honestly didn't install some of this stuff, because once it dies, 80% of the time the customers comes back and says it something that was done in the install. I mean even 10 months after it had been installed.

Being a custom/specialty shop is very hard here, where there is tone of money, but most here send it on wave runners and boats.

Ok sorry for the rant! 


*Now the Former part*, I'm no longer part of Audio By Design. I could just not take it any longer. My partner if you want to call him that, did nothing, and when he did I had to go behind him and fix it. He but a bad taste in a couple of customers month ( one I wish I could have fixed or at least made it better, but it was taken out of my hands and I could not do any thing about it and this was the one somewhat large problem the shop had in the 3 years it was open) I have known him since he was 18 now 29 and he still has not learned how to fiberglass. This just makes no since to me. He was a very good alarm installer, as I hate to lay under a dash just to hear a few beeps after 3 hours and sometimes more of back hurting work. I got to the point where no one want him to work on their cars and would tell me I only want you to do the work, but this was just not possible. I just couldn't do all the work myself, well not in the time frame all the cars had to be out. The thing is I only had ties to the shop on a contract between me and his parents. They put up 75% of the money to start the shop and did the rest, but everything was in their names, but me and him slit the profits 45/45 and his parents got 10% and brought all the know-how, which is worth all the money they could have given and more IMHO. I did 95% of the custom work that came in the shop, he did a few custom MDF enclosure builds.

Even his parents knew he was a slacking. I mean he would disappear with a week at a time and on one would know where he was. The back break for me was at the end of last year when I was working with custom car shop here on a custom 2 door twin turbo 2006 Dodge Charger. The car was suppose to go to SEMA, I came in at the end of the project a little less then to months before the car was to show at SEMA, to do a complete interior rebuild, I mean complete (dash, door panels, rear panels, seats, rear deck, and custom sound system). I even got dragged into help building the front bumper for it. I was not going to my shop at all. I was working out of the other shop. I was doing 16-48 hours, 7 days a week of working straight on this project up until it was to leave for SEMA. I had people calling my cell (yes I gave my customer my cell number) asking way no one was at the shop. I would call him no answer, call the two other guys to work for us and they would say I went to the shop, but he did not open it today. This went on for the entire time I was working out of the other shop. The shop was close for 4 days straight at one time. And to top it off he did not come and help with the Charger project, not even one day, not even one hour. At that point I was done and on my way out. I finally closed everything down about 2 months ago after the shop was move and join with a custom/repair/paint shop and he was not coming in at all, so I said time to get out. I not even going to go into the money thing, I might get mad and.........ok enough of that

I still take care of all my customers if anything goes wrong. I would never turn my back on anyone. I'm still doing installs, out of the custom/repair/paint shop, when I job comes my way. I just pay the owner to rent the space when I need it. I also in the process of starting another shop with a new and eager partner that is willing to learn, but it is a few months out and this time around I will have control and you better believe that.


----------



## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

Here-I-Come said:


> I will have to agree with you. Most of the shop here really know nothing about installing high-end gear and could care less about how it sounds. I also agree on a lot of them being butchers. I have redone and fix many of the other shops around here work. I have always done my best and go out of my way for my customers. I know my work is top notch and I have never had a problem with taking something apart to show my work.
> 
> 
> As former shop Co-owner I have had my problem with a couple of customers as any shop has, but honestly it was nothing I did, I just was the one trying to fix the problem *(MORE THE FORMER PSRT LATER!!!) *. I tried to give my customer high-end products at great prices, but the problem here in SOFLO is, customer’s knowledge of the products. I have said this before; I pride myself in giving my customers the best products for the least amount of money. I recommended raw drivers to my customers all the time, but being in Miami where Kicker and JL is Kings, and the dam flea market was around the corner along with 4 other shops, it hard enough to sell what are consider as boutique brands, because people have never heard of them, let alone raw drivers, that to the untrained eye looks cheap to the customer. I have let customers hear Dayton and some Peerless/Vifa setups, the first thing they say is it sound good, but who is this company and as great as it sounds, guess what, they still will not buy it. Why, they just don't know enough about them, and it has been install and drilled in their heads Kicker and JL is king and if it does not have bling or shine it isn't worth the money, even if it’s cheaper. I have notice of late FI has gain a little ground here. I have done a few installs with their stuff; these are the few guys that hang around the net.
> ...


Mark, it's all about big bucks and bling down here. You found it out the hard way, but you've gained in experience and a general knowledge for the lay of the land, thats a good thing.. You can be on both sides of the fence now.

Let's set up a 2 in 1 shop. Out front, a big flashy bling shop. We'll install all the flash and trash, ropeadope for the big Ballers that have to spend big. Of course it will sound good, I have much experience with making that crap sound good. 

Out back, we'll have the Elitist section. 
A special area for those in the know. We'll call it area 51, make it exclusive, like a Top Secret VIP section. Access will be limited, all on the hush hush secretive tip. 

Anyone wanting to get in will be asked a few simple questions to gage their orientation. If they answer the questions in the correct manner, they will be allowed in and treated to an SQ paradise. 

If they fail to answer the questions correctly, we'll act like the Soup Natzi from Seinfeld, deny them access by yelling " No SQ for you!!" They get sent back to the front to get the famous Soflo Kicker or JL install.

Mark, ya got PM.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

lust4sound said:


> Mark, it's all about big bucks and bling down here. You found it out the hard way, but you've gained in experience and a general lay of the land, thats a good thing.. You can be on both sides of the fence now.
> 
> Let's set up a 2 in 1 shop. Out front, a big flashy bling shop. We'll install all the flash and trash, ropeadope for the big Ballers that have to spend big.
> 
> ...


LOL, lets do it. PM back. Man bad memory, getting old!!!!


----------



## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

txbonds said:


> lust4sound said:
> 
> 
> > Show me a spot and maybe I'll pay them for their time.
> ...


----------



## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Yep, I buy online, even all my cables, fuses, connectors, etc, etc, everything! Hell, I even buy my clothes, shoes, CD's, DVD's, etc, etc online. If I could buy my groceries online, I would! LOL Funny but true! 

1) The reason I buy online is not because I'm cheap, far from it. I buy online because I'm frugal. I've got a hell of a lot more important things going on in my life than car audio, so those aspects of my life come first (bills, roof over my head, food, gas in my vehicle, etc, etc). The money I put towards that leaves a small fraction for car audio/home audio.

2) I do my own installs because I know what I want and I KNOW it will be done right the first time. AND, AND... IF I decide to cut corners somewhere in the install, I know exactly what and where it is and that it is still totally safe, both for me and my vehicle. My installs may not be the prettiest and I may do a few things differently, but I can promise you that EVERYTHING I do is 120% safe!

3) I have seen, known and heard of too many systems get stolen by employees of the very shops that installed the stuff! This brings up alarm system installs. I have seen it happen so many times where a shop will have a copy of the alarm's remote (they already have your address), then they just swing by one night, turn off your alarm with a valid remote, take what they want, turn the alarm back on and you come out to a perfectly protected stripped out car in the morning! That is why...

4) I have always taken my vehicles to a town 50 miles away to a reputable shop to have the alarm installed. I just hang with one of my friends in that town for the day or two while the alarm is being installed. When it's ready, we go to pick it up and I go back home 50 miles away. I buy decent equipment, but it's nothing worth someone driving 50 miles to another town and try to hunt down an address to steel it back.

5) One last reason for doing my own installs... Only me and a couple of my life-long friends now about it. That way, no one in my town knows there's anything in my vehicle. I do stealth installs, I do NOT play my systems loud in general, but definitely not in town. On the rare occasions that I do blast my system, it's on the highway.


As for actually buying equipment online, I have bought just about everything audio online, whether they are authorized dealers or not. I only use PayPal to buy online anywhere for anything, so that is my first line of defense against foul play. I only buy equipment that is stated as new. If I get it and I have my doubts about it being new or not, I demand an RMA and shipping label, ship it back and have it switched out for another, or I just demand a full refund of my money back. In fact, I did just that with the JL 500/1v2 amp I have. It was an honest mistake on their part and they resolved the issue without question and I just got the new amp today. However, if the company fails to comply, I go to PayPal and they take it from there. It may take a few weeks, but I always get my money back if it comes to that.

Also, I have yet to have any piece of equipment to be DOA or give me problems. And 99% of the online stores I deal with, again whether they are authorized or not, still offer some kind of warranty and have a large customer base with good reviews/feedback.

You have to be well educated and have common sense to survive buying online these days. If not, you will very quickly get raped online. Then again, your local shop will also quickly rape you, only at a much higher price!


----------



## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

SQ_Blaze said:


> 2) I do my own installs because I know what I want and I KNOW it will be done right the first time. AND, AND... IF I decide to cut corners somewhere in the install, I know exactly what and where it is and that it is still totally safe, both for me and my vehicle. My installs may not be the prettiest and I may do a few things differently, but I can promise you that EVERYTHING I do is 120% safe!
> 
> 3) I have seen, known and heard of too many systems get stolen by employees of the very shops that installed the stuff! This brings up alarm system installs. I have seen it happen so many times where a shop will have a copy of the alarm's remote (they already have your address), then they just swing by one night, turn off your alarm with a valid remote, take what they want, turn the alarm back on and you come out to a perfectly protected stripped out car in the morning! That is why...
> 
> ...


I agree totally ....funny thing I noticed the other day when I was getting a couple of windows tinted on my work van ....in a corner of a back room was a key machine.

>^..^<


----------



## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Catman said:


> I agree totally ....funny thing I noticed the other day when I was getting a couple of windows tinted on my work van ....*in a corner of a back room was a key machine.*
> >^..^<



Now that's crazy!


----------



## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

Here-I-Come said:


> Now that's crazy!


!!!!!! One of the many good things that come from Middle Eastern society is the fact that they cut off the hands of thieves. I bet if they started chopping hands off over here, that window tint shop wouldn't have a key copier in the back room.

F*CKING THIEVES!! I HATE THEM..


----------



## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

lust4sound said:


> !!!!!! One of the many good things that come from Middle Eastern society is the fact that they cut off the hands of thieves. I bet if they started chopping hands off over here, that window tint shop wouldn't have a key copier in the back room.
> 
> F*CKING THIEVES!! I HATE THEM..


Personally, I think they should bring back public hangings and start clearing out the prisons. Think about it, it would be a low cost, one-time expense. Just buy some 8"x8"x12' pressure treated beams, a couple hundred feet of 1" hemp rope, some old bar stools and you've got yourself a nice little setup that will last years, costing you hardly nothing. Well, maybe you might have to replace the rope every couple of years, but that's cheap.


----------



## hakko1999 (Jul 5, 2009)

simplicityinsound said:


> 1. well, point one is good, but i assume you arent a dealer? if you are saying it should be a free for all, waht do you thik is going to happen"? there will be guy cutting each other throats to sell lower, eventually, it gets to the point that it becomes completely not worth it to sell the product. If i sell for 30 points, fomeone will sell for 25, then someone will sell for 20, so on and so forth, you are describing exactly what is happening to the industry with online/ebay, beucase there is NO enforcement of pricing, so people are selling stuff at virtually waht we as dealers pay and sometimes even below our cost. saying that manufactuers should allow every dealer to sell whatever they want to sell it at is ludicrous.
> 
> 2. same point as above, the problem with the internet is that manufactuers cant control it, and its just going to degenerate into a cutthroat mess where everyone tries to sel loewr than everyone else...that may be good for the short term for certain consumers, but wahts good is taht when in the long run, if brand names in general start to disappear?
> 
> ...


Hence why there will be mass unemployment in the world over the next few years. It's almost become 'immoral and illegal' to make a decent profit. Money makes the world go round and if theres none to spend or nobody spending it thinks will come to a massive grinding halt....


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

Bottom line of the story, there's 2 parties to make online buying happens :
1. locall audio shop's fault
2. cheaper products end users can get their hands on it(regardless of fake products)

This situation is just like asking why some people like to buy pirated copies?


----------



## shadowfactory (Oct 20, 2008)

Mooble said:


> It all boils down to this: no one cares about my car or my system as much as I do. No one else can do it correctly. I won't even let anyone else work on my car because more often than not, they screw it up.
> 
> P.S. I have never had a single item fail that would have been covered by warranty anyway so what's the point?
> *
> P.P.S. This is happening to all industries, not just audio. Online retail is taking a toll on every retail market.*


/thread

P.S. Bing is excluded from the first statement.


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

My take,

If you are a local retailer, you should join the online retail market and compete directly with them. The reason why is that those online retailers will compete with you and WILL take your business if they can. It's the nature of business. 

The problem is that local retailers by and large probably don't understand that online retailers can and will eventually be the reason their foot traffic dries up. If they want to survive, they must learn to adapt and compete or perish.

I don't think the retail business is what it used to be.

Remember, being a retailer in your local area means you can "obtain" products for people from a source that few others can get that product from. Now with the internet, people are finding their own sources and cheaper retailers. Now, as a local business owner/retailer, it's up to you to find a way to keep that business. Offer something online retailers won't. In person, you have power that an online retailer doesn't have. You have the power to provide 'service' for your customer. That means giving them the expertise, installation support and special advice they can't get from an online experience. 

This means you're going to have to work harder to compete and you will likely be making less profit but if you're good and inventive you will find a niche or creative way to provide something no online retailer can. 

Being in business sometimes means being competitive and adapting when you need to for survival. Internet business is eroding local retail business and it's only going to get worse as more and more young people get into an adult buying age and use their computers for a lot of their retail buying instead of shopping. THEN you're really going to be up ****'s creek, aren't you? The smart local business retailers will figure it out or they will perish.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

IMO, the plight of the brick and mortar retailer will be if they attempt to compete price wise with the internet. 

The internet dealers as a general rule are near impossible to get a hold of, near impossible to get support from, and near impossible to prove authenticity of the product they are selling. 

There is nothing wrong with purchasing from these places if you feel that you do not need any support, and are willing to take the risk involved with buying from a grey market, fly by night operation. My pet peeve revolves around those who buy from these types of operations, and then are up in arms when a problem arises, and they are treated like dirt. 

I've bought things myself from online places (usually books, or items that need no warranty). The items I do buy, I accept the risk involved. I generally lump online purchase risk somewhere near the risk of buying used equipment. 

When I buy online, I plan to install, or support the item myself. Nothing made me scratch my head more than when I worked for a retailer, and had customers bringing in online purchases for installation, only to be upset when they found our installation pricing to be higher when we hadn't sold the gear. 

The basic deal is, online retailers can sell for the prices they do because they have no overhead whatsoever. They do not need a true sales staff, just a clerk or two (if that). They do not need an installation facility, they do not need a storefront with demonstration products. They can buy in bulk, or buy B-stock goods. Most do not accept returns of any kind. 

Those that refer to the bottom of the barrel retail stores, and complain that they don't know what they're talking about. I'm sure these shops exist. There are also plenty of shops that do know what they are talking about. This is proven daily by the industry people that are members of this site. Many here have worked for good shops. 

If you can't find a good shop, IMO, it's because you haven't done your homework. 
To find a good shop: 

Check out some of the better car shows. Look for good workmanship in someones car. (when I say car show, i'm not talking H.I.N or DUBS or Funk Master Flex). 

Check out workmanship at the shop. Ask to see pictures. What's in their shop during your visit. Will the guys there show you any of their work? Do they own an RTA? Do they carry any worthwhile brands? Have they ever competed in IASCA or USAC or any other sanctioned events? Do they warranty their work? Do they solder their connections? Are they friendly? How do they interact with the customers before you? 

If they get a phone call while you are there, are they courteous on the phone? Do they seem interested in finding out what your goals are? or are they just interested in moving a box? 

What is their experience level? How long have they been in their profession? 

If the shop can not pass any of these tests/questions to your satisfaction, why support them? 

If the internet retailer can't pass any of these tests either, why support them?


----------



## briansz (Feb 5, 2008)

The problem with the race to the bottom, is eventually you get there.

Elevator's pretty much at the bottom floor nowadays, and it's not just car audio.


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

One of the big problems is that local retailers can't afford to carry a lot of inventory these days. Since I install everything myself, I want to pick up the product at a good price and be on my way. I absolutely HATE when I go somewhere to buy something and they say "we don't have any in stock, but we can order it". **** that! I can order it and have it delivered to my house. I'm willing to pay retail if I can pick it up that day and take it home, but if I have to wait a week or two I might as well order online, save a few bucks, and never leave the house.

If a retailer can't provide me with the convenience of having the item in stock, then what service are they providing me?


----------



## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

gijoe said:


> One of the big problems is that local retailers can't afford to carry a lot of inventory these days. Since I install everything myself, I want to pick up the product at a good price and be on my way. I absolutely HATE when I go somewhere to buy something and they say "we don't have any in stock, but we can order it". **** that! I can order it and have it delivered to my house. I'm willing to pay retail if I can pick it up that day and take it home, but if I have to wait a week or two I might as well order online, save a few bucks, and never leave the house.
> 
> If a retailer can't provide me with the convenience of having the item in stock, then what service are they providing me?


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

You apparently have absolutely zero clue what it takes to keep a shop 'stocked'. The primary Daily products that we NEED to keep on hand would be .. alarms, remote starts, bypasses, cable, interconnects, dash kits, wire harnesses, etc .. All the way down to the tape and zip ties. Think it's inexpensive stuff ? Sure, because you buy for your one or two single cars. Try stocking it for 2+ dozen cars at a time.

You want a shop with everything in stock ? Nearly impossible. One single speaker/amplifier line can list 20+ SKUs alone and we are supposed to stock them all? From EACH manufacturer ? Sorry, but I (as well as 99.9% of other shops) am simply not that filthy rich.

Absolutely nothing that I need to order takes more than 4 business days to get in stock. Do I keep some stock ? Absolutely, but everything ? Hell no. How do I know what you are going to need ? What size speakers fit your car ? What amp(s) will you be using ? Are you planning on a $300 setup or $30K one ? I mean really, cut us some slack with the "you need to have everything" line.


----------



## Mosho (Apr 17, 2009)

So, online shops do have everything, are cheaper, most provide good service and warranty and stuff get to me after 2 days (look where I'm from). Why would I buy locally? That is a niche left for people who don't know how to use the internet nowadays (and they're getting less and less). Either adapt or wither and die, that's how the real world goes. You're not looking for business, you're looking for donations.


----------



## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Mosho said:


> So, online shops do have everything, are cheaper, most provide good service and warranty and stuff get to me after 2 days (look where I'm from). Why would I buy locally? That is a niche left for people who don't know how to use the internet nowadays (and they're getting less and less). Either adapt or wither and die, that's how the real world goes. You're not looking for business, you're looking for donations.


Online shops have everything ? Really ? Are you sure about that ? Oh wait, perhaps you are naive and believe the 'in stock' icon is absolute. :laugh: At least 60% of these etailers do not have a product in stock, rather they attempt to get it after it is sold. Most times they do in fact manage to get it, but what does that say about them selling something that they do not actually have ? I suppose in your lala land it means nothing.

Good service ? To put your name and address on a box and make sure UPS takes it at the end of the day ? How the hell can you do that badly ?

They provide a warranty ? Ahhh, sorry forgot - lala land. 'In house warranty' doesnt count bud, unless your banking on them NEVER going away. Check the 100s of customers that lost thousands of dollars and products beccause they thought thezeb.com wasnt going away.  Buy online, then contact the manufacturer for a warranty. Wear earplugs - some people have very harsh laughs.

I am looking for donations ? I think you should take a step back from crossing the line there my friend. Search around and ask a few people - I bust my ass for every single person I deal with. Yes, even when I know Im not even selling them anything ! I have actually on numerous occasions turned down such 'donations' when offered for services, support, advice,etc ..


----------



## Mosho (Apr 17, 2009)

6spdcoupe said:


> Online shops have everything ? Really ? Are you sure about that ? Oh wait, perhaps you are naive and believe the 'in stock' icon is absolute. :laugh: At least 60% of these etailers do not have a product in stock, rather they attempt to get it after it is sold. Most times they do in fact manage to get it, but what does that say about them selling something that they do not actually have ? I suppose in your lala land it means nothing.
> 
> The places I buy have everything in stock, or at least close enough for me not to care.
> 
> ...


I know good people who are complaining (rightfully so) just like you are, but good people are not exempt from market laws.


----------



## JMachan (Jul 3, 2008)

Look...we're talking about reaching a homeostasis... Demand will drive innovation both in product and in ways to make profit. If you can't hang as a dealer, yup you'll sadly be history...but that's the way of things.

The problem with price fixing is that it removes the motivation to make good products to justify costs. One company that comes to mind is Bose. Bose price fixes. How many of you are ready to endorse Bose products as a great sounding product compared to other products of the same price? They're brilliant marketers and once they got their foot-hold, they used their margins on marketing and sales incentives (I remember selling enough Bose one Xmas season before I knew better to get a nice pair of 301s for free).

I really feel for the B&M places, but I think that this is the motivation to innovate. B&M has dimensions to their model that can never be replicated online. If I had one I trusted near me that would always be my first stop. So, exploit those advantages.


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> :laugh::laugh::laugh:
> 
> You apparently have absolutely zero clue what it takes to keep a shop 'stocked'. The primary Daily products that we NEED to keep on hand would be .. alarms, remote starts, bypasses, cable, interconnects, dash kits, wire harnesses, etc .. All the way down to the tape and zip ties. Think it's inexpensive stuff ? Sure, because you buy for your one or two single cars. Try stocking it for 2+ dozen cars at a time.
> 
> ...


I understand that keeping a shop stocked isn't cheap. But when it comes to the DIY kinda guy, we don't need someone to install the gear, we just need a good place to buy what we need.

Tell me what benefit there is to buying from a shop when they have to order the gear anyway.

I can either buy the gear for the same price with warranty online, or cheaper without the warranty and have it delivered to my house in the same amount of time it takes for your shop to order it. Then you call me and I have to driver over and pick it up.

I'm not saying I don't support the local retailers, but the problem (in my area at least) is that they don't have what I want. I'd love to have a shop that I could go into, browse around, demo some gear and build a relationship with the staff, but there honestly isn't a shop like that in my area. 

I don't expect every shop to have everything in every size ready for me, but my experience is that they don't stock any of their quality gear. They have it on demo and stock the **** out of their entry level stuff, but anything decent has to be ordered.

I see the shops benefiting the guys who need someone to do the fabrication, but I don't see much benefit for the DIY crowd.


----------



## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

Some people are forgetting that the majority of people in car audio are not the A-phile style that many people on here tend to be. I would love it if I could sit down in a seat at a shop and demo with my own CDs many of the drivers that I've heard about. 

No shop within 100 miles of me has that. So, I have to guess if I'm going to like it. I'll be damned if I'm going to spend extra cash for an expensive driver or head unit and not like it. 

The flip side of the coin is........what are you getting from the online retailer? Many of the ones that are NOT authorized could be selling you B-stock equipment. THEN, you might not even be getting what the manufacturer intended. It happened to me twice.

Many of the B&M shops forget that many people consider the best buys of the world to be decent shops for car audio. To go beyond the typical big store, cheap **** idea, you have to go that much further. Sounds like some people here actually do that. Though, those stores are far and few between.


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

hakko1999 said:


> Hence why there will be mass unemployment in the world over the next few years. It's almost become 'immoral and illegal' to make a decent profit. Money makes the world go round and if theres none to spend or nobody spending it thinks will come to a massive grinding halt....


There's so much wrong with that statement I don't even know where to begin.


----------



## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Not sure if it was mentioned previously but the only thing other than instant gratification that a B/M shop offers is service. What we have been seeing is the decline of shops that didn't offer good service. And yes service incorporates a fair price. The shops that are still around (and yes some of them are bad) have migrated predominately to what sells. BOOM. 9 out of 10 installs and product sales are aimed at providing Boom. It is a teen-25 year old crowd that provides the majority of sales. If a shop gets a rep that speaks of shoddy work AND high prices it will die out.

My experience is that I have not purchased out of a B/M since 1997. I bought my wife an amp. A RF punch 250a2. Still have it. Since then I have purchased equipment from Woofersetc.com and a couple of other places. But mostly I have purchased directly from the manufacturers/brands themselves. My head unit processor and controller itried to buy it from 2 seperate businesses in my area. the first wanted 1000 bucks for the trio. The second wanted 975. And this didn't include tax. I ended up purchasing from Crutchfield (gasp!) of all places. I got them cheaper, no shipping (cause the B/M's would have to order as well) and no sales tax saving me even more money. The service was just not there.


----------



## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

I think another thing to factor into the whole equasion here is education. If you go back 15 hell even 10 years ago, there wasn't NEARLY the wealth of knowledge available at the click of a mouse as there is today. Buyers are far more edjucated about what they are buying and what it costs. So most arent going into shops in this day and age needing to have their hand held through the process of selecting audio components for their installations. There isnt that relationship developed between dealer and customer.

The sad realization of this thread is that in the end, consumers are looking for the cheapest way to get the most value for their dollar and they will buy from whoever fulfills that demand. Its unfortunate that great entrepreneurs are suffering and employees are losing their jobs in some of these retail businesses, but it seems that bottom dollar is all the market cares about. The "dealer" has now become online retailers, and the "customer service" has become google and internet forums like ours.


----------



## ZZROCOOL (Jun 1, 2009)

arrivalanche said:


> Its just really killing the industry. I personally after 10 years have said "F it!" and got out of car audio and am back in college. It sucks that I have to quit something I love bc people are cheep. The only thing keeping our area alive is its a rich area where most people are driving porshces and aston martins. even at that its still hard. I just want to find all those guys selling product sideways online and kick each and everyone of them in the balls. I get a kick out of people bringing in their failed product that they bought online and asking us to send it im bc we are a authorized dealer. Good luck with that. Not only do most companies not take it but the ones who do charge you damn near the price of the amp to fix it as a punishment.


I think part of the problem is the typical products sold by local dealers suck they sell big names ie JL audio, MTX, Alpine amps and forget that what makes this industry go is the high end stuff. I can't even remember the last time I saw anything at a car audio shop like McIntosh, Genesis, Dynaudio they all sell big name crap. and the demonstrate radio! They need to get away from boom and sizzle brands and start selling good stuff the sounds great and I think people will go back to seeking out their expertise. Every time I stop by to browse I get sold JL audio speakers, (not subs), and MTX crap.


----------



## methmurda (Jan 28, 2008)

I agree... some one's always trying to push some b/s jl or mtx crap in your lap.


----------



## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

ZZROCOOL said:


> I think part of the problem is the typical products sold by local dealers suck they sell big names ie JL audio, MTX, Alpine amps and forget that what makes this industry go is the high end stuff. I can't even remember the last time I saw anything at a car audio shop like McIntosh, Genesis, Dynaudio they all sell big name crap. and the demonstrate radio! They need to get away from boom and sizzle brands and start selling good stuff the sounds great and I think people will go back to seeking out their expertise. Every time I stop by to browse I get sold JL audio speakers, (not subs), and MTX crap.


The "high end" stuff probably accounts for 5% of whats actually sold so I doubt its what makes the market go. The reason the JL and MTX stuff is so prevalent is because it offers a similar level of performance for _cheaper_.
And so what happens when a dealer decides they'll stop selling JL and now they sell Dyn and Mac andothers? Well they just cut out like 80% of their clientel because the cost to play is now double. So now they have to make even larger margins on the already more expensive stuff, so then it doesnt sell either. Especially when you can get it online through the gray market for less.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

ZZROCOOL said:


> I think part of the problem is the typical products sold by local dealers suck they sell big names ie JL audio, MTX, Alpine amps and forget that what makes this industry go is the high end stuff. I can't even remember the last time I saw anything at a car audio shop like McIntosh, Genesis, Dynaudio they all sell big name crap. and the demonstrate radio! They need to get away from boom and sizzle brands and start selling good stuff the sounds great and I think people will go back to seeking out their expertise. Every time I stop by to browse I get sold JL audio speakers, (not subs), and MTX crap.


Those are the ultimate consequences of buying online. If your local shop sold super high end stuff, would you buy from them or would you go get a demo and search the web for a better deal?

BTW, there's nothing wrong with JL--all of these other brands you mention make nice stuff too, but they aren't magic.


----------



## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

I've only read the last page of this thread, but here's my 2 cents..

B/Ms are being relegated to **** because the manufacturers are spending millions in advertising, so of course their products are at the top of the Newb Heap with the B/M locations.... Not to mention the incentives that the manufacturers are offering the "authorized butchers" out there, those that remain in the B/M locations, the same people that sell all the very commercialized stuff. The markup on most crap is astonishing, the economy sucks, B/M locations know they can work with a customer to make them think they are getting a break.. 

I agree with you all, these new kids are looking for instant gratification, they don't know any better, if it blings and goes boom and they think they are getting a break, of course they will go the B/M route and buy crap.. Again, they think they are getting a break because half the time, they don't realize the markup.. B/M retailers know this.. 

The economy sucks, so those in the know will use the internet and buy quality on the cheap.. More and more, the B/M locations are a dying breed in terms of ever offering quality SQ products.. Even if they did, half the time, they are butchers, so it amounts to **** anyway.. Look at West Coast Customs.. Have you seen half those builds? Do they look like they would sound any good even if quality equipment was used? The same holds true for the majority of what I see left in the industry.. Shows like West Coast customs have set the benchmark for **** installs... At least from what I have seen.. I could be wrong, maybe they are Pros responsible for trophy winning installs?

Down in South FL, you have 3 choices.. Go to the fleamarket, get ripped off come out sounding like a tin can rattling. Go to Best Buy, follow suit but spend a little more.. Go to a premier install facility and have your ass handed to you.. Quality B/Ms are fast becoming a thing of the past..

I want to add the fact that I see quite a few people in here mentioning JL as if it's a bad thing.. JL may be a bit pricey, but I don't think their products should be knocked.. 

Before I came across a pair of used 12W7s, there was no way I would ever consider buying them. Not at over $800 a pop, especially after the fact that I heard quite a few JL equipped systems down here.. What I heard coming from these installs was laughable at best, especially considering what the customers ended up paying for the total install.. I quickly realized after I purchased a pair of used 12W7s (and installed them myself) that they are incredible subs for their given application. Same can be said about their 1000/1's.. When I heard them in an install done by a local "Premier BM installer" I was not the least bit impressed. When I came across a used one that I purchased for resale, it quickly changed my mind about their amps as well... Their components? Yeah, Not'smuch.. A bit bright for my taste.. Yet anything JL audio in the hands of a good installer is an excellent product.. Just a bit pricey, then again, markup is huge.. Just my 2 cents..

Here comes the **** storm.. Fire away!!


----------



## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

BTW, we can blame China and a typical manufacturer CEOs bottom line for what has happened to a lot of the OS goodies out there.. EG: Kicker, Soundstream, Phoenix Gold.. China, greed and those 2 brothers that went around buying everyone up.. You know who they are.. 

(Audiobahfangule?) Is that how you spell "F*ck You" in Italian?

That is the most obvious statement a person can make, figured I'd throw it in for a laugh....


----------



## Vega-LE (Feb 22, 2009)

Last few installs I paid a shop to do were really horrible. Dented mid/woofer, different type screws to mount the speakers, sub wasn't mounted properly and wasn't sealed, dude forgot to connect the antenna, kept my dash pocket after installing an eq, door panel wasn't put back-on properly, etc...

Finding a shop that has really good installers is a little like trying to win the lottery. And I swear, my truck would sit there half the day with the installer gone...


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Vega-LE said:


> Last few installs I paid a shop to do were really horrible. Dented mid/woofer, different type screws to mount the speakers, sub wasn't mounted properly and wasn't sealed, dude forgot to connect the antenna, kept my dash pocket after installing an eq, door panel wasn't put back-on properly, etc...
> 
> Finding a shop that has really good installers is a little like trying to win the lottery. And I swear, my truck would sit there half the day with the installer gone...


I agree. LOTS of shops aren't doing anything special. They're not doing anything that the consumer couldn't do himself. The ones that ARE doing good work will usually thrive, if the demand is there.

We shouldn't lament the loss of a B&M shop just because it's a B&M shop. The majority of them suck. Losing them is a good thing.


----------



## Morts (May 28, 2009)

Selection is scarce in my area even being a larger city. We have 2 shops, one carries TMA and J/L Audio. The other carries Pioneer/ Memphis and a few others. I want certain products I cant get locally. Early in the 90s the shops were much better and had a much larger selection of quality stuff. I used to buy Orion/ HiFonics and could get just about any brand I wanted. My local shop wanted 259 for a J/L 12w3v4 and I got it for 150 new shipped for free. I could see spending an extra 100 for 4 days shipping time for the same product.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Now think, that JL sub that sells for $259 on crutchfield costs most dealers $150-160. There are three avenue's that account for that sub being sold at that price. EDIT* (The price being $150 to the gentlemen in the above post)

A: it's b-stock refurbished product that has the b-stock labels removed so the product can pass for new. All of you who immediately say IMPOSSIBLE!!!, calm down and realize that you really haven't the foggiest idea where your product truly came from. 

B: it's counterfit. it's really not all that hard to reproduce a woofer and packaging that looks like JL's. That certainly doesn't mean it will perform like one. Most online retailers figure that if you're buying online, you probably can't tell the difference anyway. (admittedly this is the least likely of the three options)

c. it's trans-shipped. this basically means that it may have come from JL originally. Along the way, someone most likely opened the box, and cut the serial # off of everything they could find on it. (guess what this means in the unlikely event that the police look at your gear) I've seen plenty of JL stuff like this. I wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole. I've seen spider's and cones reattached after someone pulled them apart to deface the s/n. I've seen amps that were dissassembled and put back together incorrectly just to tamper with the S/N. If you are lucky, the product is not harmed in the process of defacing the s/n. If you are not so lucky, you have $150 paper weight. JL will do nothing for you. I can only imagine the number of negative reviews i've seen where the customer bought the product defaced, or possibly b-stock, only to find that it didn't perform as expected. 

There are the rare circumstances where you get an A-stock product that hasn't been defaced. I'd guess this is a 1 in 10 likelihood. If you are lucky enough to have this be the case, you still have no warranty. 

JL's take on this: JL Audio


I find it funny that so many people think the internet is their own little secret for how to get things cheap. So many think that they're beating the system, when often they are only beating themselves. 

Internet and "wholesaler" sales are nothing new. I remember wholesalers that were around 15 years ago blowing out trans-shipped product. This was before the internet boom, and even then, most people with half a brain knew enough to steer clear of them. 

Maybe i'm lucky, but here in the northeast, I can think of at least 8-10 good shops that I would bring my car to for installation (if I didn't do everything myself). 

I've also seen some back yard installs that make me scratch my head. I seriously saw someone with a 4 guage power line (at least in the back of the car it was 4 guage, under the hood it was 12 guage), and 12 guage ground shoved under a trunk latch. I saw power wire with no connector shoved under a screw, and trimmed down to fit (it was 4 guage as well). The same backyard installer had managed to hook the voice coils on his sub up out of phase. He couldn't figure out why the sub would not play, regardless of how high he cranked the gain, and the volume, the sub wouldn't budge. 

These are mistakes that even the greenest of paid installers would not make. The backyard installer initially thought he was saving money. He figured out that he spent almost a whole afternoon of his free time trying to install the gear, and then the better part of the next day trying to figure out what was wrong. 

Most of us here on DIYMA would not make these mistakes. We are the exception to the rule. The skill level that is present here is for the most part, above these types of problems. I'd say we account for 5-10% of the market. I know we like to think we are a higher percentage, but you all know that in reality, we are the minority. 

Choose who you decide to purchase from wisely. Support businesses that you think earn your money. Support businesses that you hope will still exist 5-10 years from now. 

If we all did this, the crappy B&M stores would go away, and all that would be left are the top contenders. 

The internet stores wouldn't dissapear, but only the more committed vendors would be around. 

The whole market in general would be a much better place if customers cared who they were buying from more than just finding the lowest $ amount. 

That's my opinion anyway...


----------



## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Now think, that JL sub that sells for $259 on crutchfield costs most dealers $150-160. There are three avenue's that account for that sub being sold at that price.


I hope you realize that crutchfield is an authorized seller. In fact, they are listed right on JLs web site. 

Any of your three listed scenarios do not hold water for crutchfield. For other online retailers, probably. And its usually C. that is the most likely to occur.


----------



## waloupis (Jul 7, 2009)

Just a new guy here saying hello. Pretty cool site.


----------



## Morts (May 28, 2009)

I had to pull it out of the box after this thread and I must say it looks to be untampered with. I guess I got real lucky with my J/L sub and it so far has performed as well as expected so far. I guess even if it was refurbished and it was done by J/L im OK with it.


----------



## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Fast1one said:


> I hope you realize that crutchfield is an authorized seller. In fact, they are listed right on JLs web site.
> 
> Any of your three listed scenarios do not hold water for crutchfield. For other online retailers, probably. And its usually C. that is the most likely to occur.


He was using Crutchfield to base a comparison of a legitimate retailer opposed to the lower price unauthorized ones.


----------



## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Now think, that JL sub that sells for $259 on crutchfield costs most dealers $150-160. There are three avenue's that account for that sub being sold at that price.
> 
> A: it's b-stock refurbished product that has the b-stock labels removed so the product can pass for new. All of you who immediately say IMPOSSIBLE!!!, calm down and realize that you really haven't the foggiest idea where your product truly came from.
> 
> ...


You forgot about D: the hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of product that get grabbed at the ship yards and trains during transport. Alot more of this happens than any of us would like to believe.


----------



## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

6spdcoupe said:


> He was using Crutchfield to base a comparison of a legitimate retailer opposed to the lower price unauthorized ones.


Whoops you are right, didnt realize he was referring to the post above him, carry on. Excellent post!


----------



## cperlas (Jun 13, 2009)

I went to the three shops here in my town, and all of them are the same. All they do is try to get your money, and lie to you. One shop has a crack addict for a greeter, one was too good to acknowledge me, and the other had a high school kid telling me its gonna be 500 to install a nav. No set price cause they make it up on the fly.

I'm probably getting screwed, and lied to online too, but at least they're not doing it to my face. And, if anybody do any research, they don't get in trouble. 

Try telling a guy at a local shop that you've done all your research and you get handed off to the newbie.


----------



## Vega-LE (Feb 22, 2009)

MarkZ said:


> I agree. LOTS of shops aren't doing anything special. They're not doing anything that the consumer couldn't do himself. The ones that ARE doing good work will usually thrive, if the demand is there.
> 
> We shouldn't lament the loss of a B&M shop just because it's a B&M shop. The majority of them suck. Losing them is a good thing.


Just wait one year and the shop has all new employees.  There's just no consistency, generally speaking. Unless, it's a one man show basically.

And trying demo speakers at a local shop on a sound board is laughable. They're either not hooked-up, don't have them or are rigged-up through crappy equipment with little ability to do any tuning.:laugh:


----------



## KAPendley (Nov 19, 2007)

Ultimately the whole problem is the fact that there is no longer any perceived value in car audio. I owned a shop, and loved it. Loved dealing with customers and giving the best service in the area, even to the ones I couldnt ****in stand, I could win over. Went well beyond what was expected of me and never had an angry customer. The only angry ones were the guys that bought ******** used equipment from their friends and blame me when it quit working. 

I dont own a shop now, and its not because of me. Wrong demographic. The price of gas went up, as we all know last year, and the area I was in was full of people that already had to commute to a job, as there was none in the area. Who do I blame? Why the government, of course. lol. But I don't regret a thing.

If you have never owned a business, then you cant judge the ones that do. If you can do it better, grow some cojones and open a store. Otherwise dont pass judgement on the men (and some women) that are just trying to make their way doing what they love at the cost of not making much money, and normally holding a smile on thier face while some 17 yr old kid that ****ing knows EVERYTHING about audio tells them what they dont know and what they can do with their years of experience.

Not everyone here has had a great experience with a shop. So find one that gives you that. Im soooooo ****ing tired of people saying it comes down to price. That is the whole problem with the nation. Thats why ALL the jobs are in China. You want it cheap America, well guess who will make it cheaper? Now eat that cheap **** and shut the **** up. It only cost half of you your jobs. If I want something I cant afford, but feel I HAVE to have it, I would rather save money for it and get the best for my dollar from an avenue that I can trust instead of buying it online. Thats just me. 90% of the nation spend 40 hours a week at jobs they hate to buy **** they dont need.

People forget that ALL car audio has a life expectancy. You can baby the **** out of a sub, but eventually it will stop working. Not all the time, there is plenty of equipment out there that lasts, but really, its not an appliance. **** is not made by Maytag.

I dont blame anyone for being a DIY. I understand why people do what they do, but quit your ****ing hating on shops. If a shop raped you and **** on you, then preach on. But there is a TON of shops out there that stand tall and go out of their way for people, and it comes at a price. If you cant afford their price, its not a reason to come on here and smash them. They have employees to pay and mouths to feed as well.

Have a nice ****ing night. lol.


----------



## Vega-LE (Feb 22, 2009)

CCSS said:


> Ultimately the whole problem is the fact that there is no longer any perceived value in car audio. I owned a shop, and loved it. Loved dealing with customers and giving the best service in the area, even to the ones I couldnt ****in stand, I could win over. Went well beyond what was expected of me and never had an angry customer. The only angry ones were the guys that bought ******** used equipment from their friends and blame me when it quit working.
> 
> I dont own a shop now, and its not because of me. Wrong demographic. The price of gas went up, as we all know last year, and the area I was in was full of people that already had to commute to a job, as there was none in the area. Who do I blame? Why the government, of course. lol. But I don't regret a thing.
> 
> ...


Where did you buy your last piece of equipment that wasn't used?


----------



## KAPendley (Nov 19, 2007)

Vega-LE said:


> Where did you buy your last piece of equipment that wasn't used?


WTF are you talking about? Car audio? Uh....direct from the manu. Does that count as new? I said I owned a shop, did you read the post you quoted? I dont get your point.


----------



## cperlas (Jun 13, 2009)

I have to disagree that people forget about product life expectancy. I think that the reason people seek out the cheapest they can find, because they know they'd have to replace them soon enough. People treat everything as disposable these days, so what would a warranty really give them? Also, the limitations on those warranty is like a nice way of saying, "we don't got one". 

Also, as a former business owner, restaurant if curious, it doesn't matter what we've established as our goals as far as customer service, that ******* who told us he's enthusiastic, now thinks he deserve more money, and just would put in the work you expected. Every single business owner say they go above and beyond customer expectations, but honestly, how many do we personally service, and how many did lazy ******* did? Employee actions unfortunately gets taken as the whole business, and I guarantee, at least one employee had pissed somebody enough to stay away, and they're taking their friends with them.


----------



## truckboattruck (Jun 4, 2009)

Whew, a little heated up aren't we CCSS. I am one of those employed by a shop and I still love it. Everything you wrote is true. It's a business, and cutting out the middle man does hurt. I see it almost everyday. Someone comes in and browses the store, heads home, and in a bout 2 weeks comes back with an Ebay item. Of course we can't match Sonic Electronixx, but we can't pass up that install, especially as slow as times have been. I gotta get paid, the kids need milk, etc. I am never one to turn my back on anyone. As an installer, I get asked for advice or technical help. I can always say, "I get paid to do it, not to teach it." I don't however. It's part of the way the shop is. I don't go to the store front and try to ream people. I want customers to be satisfied and feel comfortable with the product they purchased and (keyword) *service* received. I'm sorry for any bad experiences suffered. All shops aren't the same, but we are all trying to hack out a living. Cut the mom and pop shop a little slack fellas.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Fast1one said:


> I hope you realize that crutchfield is an authorized seller. In fact, they are listed right on JLs web site.
> 
> Any of your three listed scenarios do not hold water for crutchfield. For other online retailers, probably. And its usually C. that is the most likely to occur.


Fixed for clarity. Crutchfield is authorized and sells at map most of the time. They actually offer service, and installation parts/instructions. They are the cream of the crop when it comes to online/catalog retailers. 

My opinion is that A is much more likely. B-stock or repaired/refurbished product are regularly sold online as brand new. They are repackaged so well, that most can't tell the difference until they have a problem, and even then they just chalk it up to the product being junk...


----------



## briansz (Feb 5, 2008)

CCSS said:


> Ultimately the whole problem is the fact that there is no longer any perceived value in car audio.


Bingo. The industry does not create perceived value, except with a tiny portion of the client base and an even smaller portion of the gear.

Go to a (home) audio trade show sometime. I went to Rocky Mountain AudioFest last year and enjoyed it a lot. Let's face it, the home audio industry has evolved in much more inventive ways than mobile electronics. And they seek a high-end clientele. That place was packed showing off $30K turntables hooked to $100K of electronics and $200K worth of speakers. Not all the rooms, true, but I'd easily put the average system in the $7.5K range. You can make a living selling that.

$700 power cords don't even raise an eyebrow and independent audio consultants can actually eat. ListenUp seems to be doing fine around here stocking loads of expensive B&W loudspeakers. If I had $35K to spend, I'd have spent it after listening in one particular room at that show, the system was _that_ good. Can anybody honestly say that has ever happened to them at a car audio dealer/display board?

Obviously part of the issue is that there is more 'artistic' potential in the custom machining and woodworking of high end audio gear. Some of it is beautiful to look at and a few designers are really pusing the envelope. 

Welcome to BoulderAmp.com

As a custom cabinetmaker (past life) and drafter/machine programmer (present life) It's one of the reasons I enjoy the trade shows. I'd love to sell car audio instead of driving a mouse all day, but I'm not going to do it and starve any more than I already am lately. I don't know how viable the mobile electronics aftermarket is in the long term. One particular shop around here is selling prefab sub boxes as low as $15. I was getting $130 for a custom pair of raw MDF truck boxes that were then marked up by the dealer back in 1992.

As I've said before, my hat's off to those of you that make a go of it for primary income.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

cperlas said:


> I have to disagree that people forget about product life expectancy. I think that the reason people seek out the cheapest they can find, because they know they'd have to replace them soon enough. People treat everything as disposable these days, so what would a warranty really give them? Also, the limitations on those warranty is like a nice way of saying, "we don't got one".
> 
> Also, as a former business owner, restaurant if curious, it doesn't matter what we've established as our goals as far as customer service, that ******* who told us he's enthusiastic, now thinks he deserve more money, and just would put in the work you expected. Every single business owner say they go above and beyond customer expectations, but honestly, how many do we personally service, and how many did lazy ******* did? Employee actions unfortunately gets taken as the whole business, and I guarantee, at least one employee had pissed somebody enough to stay away, and they're taking their friends with them.


How are "limitations" insinuating that you don't get a warranty? I've yet to see a warranty claim denied citing "limitations" as the reason. Abuse, or physical damage is about the only deal breaker when it comes to denying warranty. 

As to product life expectancy: I've seen plenty of 10-15-20 year old pieces of gear that still operate properly. The sub running in my beater car was made in 1996, and it works perfectly. Some car audio today is disposable, but there are still solid products that are not, and if properly cared for, will last you longer than the car you installed them in.


----------



## JMachan (Jul 3, 2008)

Let's set aside the "bad" shops, as I think we all agree they should disappear.

I get the impression that some people feel that B&M are simply entitled to exist and make a profit. No. You're not entitled to my money. You have to earn it.

I have needs and I have money. If you aren't the right place for me to put my money based on my needs, then you don't get it. Lucky for you, there are lots of people with different needs and different amounts of money.

So, study...research...pick a business model and do it well. When the people's needs and money change...you have to follow.

That's the way it is in any business (present bail-out companies excluded). You're not entitled to anything. Think about it that way and you're going the way of the dodo.


----------



## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

I would say the manufacturers are partly responsible. How come I had to pay full price to an authorized dealer for a Pioneer product to get a warranty when I could go online and pay half. The manufacturer (PIoneer) must be supplying their products cheap to the online store, knowing they can shirk their warranty which is ****tty of the manufacturer, and creating a big question mark of why this duality is allowed to exist in the first place.
Mike


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

JMachan said:


> Let's set aside the "bad" shops, as I think we all agree they should disappear.
> 
> I get the impression that some people feel that B&M are simply entitled to exist and make a profit. No. You're not entitled to my money. You have to earn it.
> 
> ...


Entitled to exist? Maybe not. Entitled to make a profit? Absolutely. Guess what? Even the internet retailer is making a profit. 

People say profit like it's a four letter word. Every purchase you make has some profit in it for the seller. Head to the supermarket, they profit from every item of food you buy. Head to your utility company, they make a profit on the electricity they sell you. Place an auction on ebay, they make a profit on the auction. Hell, if you head to the gas station and fill up your tank, they are making a profit. It can't be avoided. Companies do not exist as a charitable contribution to the consumer. Profit is not a crime, nor is it immoral. 

I agree that shops need to earn the business of it's patrons. In the same sense, consumers need to choose who they do business with more wisely. People will research a product until they make their eyes roll back in their head. Why not research the place you choose to buy from as much? It's not difficult to determine whether the shop you're in is a good shop or not. Heck, ask the other customers that are having work done. Do a search online. Ask to see some work they've done. Ask about their installation methods. Ask to talk to the installer that will be working on your vehicle. Put the same effort into choosing the place to buy, as you put into choosing what to buy.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Deton Nation said:


> I would say the manufacturers are partly responsible. How come I had to pay full price to an authorized dealer for a Pioneer product to get a warranty when I could go online and pay half. The manufacturer (PIoneer) must be supplying their products cheap to the online store, knowing they can shirk their warranty which is ****tty of the manufacturer, and creating a big question mark of why this duality is allowed to exist in the first place.
> Mike


You didn't "have" to do anything. Why do you think it's sold for "half" online? If the online place felt they could compete with an authorized retailer at the same price, don't you think they would? They know the only way they'll sell things is if they buy trans-shipped, b-stock, or otherwise substandard product, and sell it cheap to people who buy based on price alone. 

I know recently, Pioneer has had some quirks, firmware issues, and some other problems with their nav units. If you were an online purchaser, you probably got one of these units. If you purchased from a dealer, and ended up with one, you are covered by the warranty.

When a product is sold for far less online, you have to wonder why. Most people assume that the internet retailer is simply making less profit. I assure you, this is generally not the case. The savings is coming from somewhere, and it's not the internet stores pocket.


----------



## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

WRX/Z28 said:


> You didn't "have" to do anything. Why do you think it's sold for "half" online? If the online place felt they could compete with an authorized retailer at the same price, don't you think they would? They know the only way they'll sell things is if they buy trans-shipped, b-stock, or otherwise substandard product, and sell it cheap to people who buy based on price alone.
> 
> I know recently, Pioneer has had some quirks, firmware issues, and some other problems with their nav units. If you were an online purchaser, you probably got one of these units. If you purchased from a dealer, and ended up with one, you are covered by the warranty.
> 
> When a product is sold for far less online, you have to wonder why. Most people assume that the internet retailer is simply making less profit. I assure you, this is generally not the case. The savings is coming from somewhere, and it's not the internet stores pocket.


Though Pioneer is supplying the online market with cheap product and its a reflection on Pioneer. Whether they are declining to give the appropriate information on whether its substandard product still ends up being a reflection on the manufacturer. I dont think you are getting a product that is defective because if you did after a while the consensus would be "Man Pioneer sucks!" So Pioneer is supplying the 2 markets, one online one "authorized" and looking in the other direction like they dont know.
Mike


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Deton Nation said:


> Though Pioneer is supplying the online market with cheap product and its a reflection on Pioneer. Whether they are declining to give the appropriate information on whether its substandard product still ends up being a reflection on the manufacturer. I dont think you are getting a product that is defective because if you did after a while the consensus would be "Man Pioneer sucks!" So Pioneer is supplying the 2 markets, one online one "authorized" and looking in the other direction like they dont know.
> Mike


What should pioneer do with the B-stock products? Throw them out?

Also, Who says the product is coming directly from pioneer? 

BTW, IMO (and many others opinion) pioneer does suck!


----------



## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

WRX/Z28 said:


> What should pioneer do with the B-stock products? Throw them out?
> 
> Also, Who says the product is coming directly from pioneer?
> 
> BTW, IMO (and many others opinion) pioneer does suck!


lol... howd i know that would be said hehe.
Mike


----------



## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Deton Nation said:


> Though Pioneer is supplying the online market with cheap product and its a reflection on Pioneer. Whether they are declining to give the appropriate information on whether its substandard product still ends up being a reflection on the manufacturer. I dont think you are getting a product that is defective because if you did after a while the consensus would be "Man Pioneer sucks!" So Pioneer is supplying the 2 markets, one online one "authorized" and looking in the other direction like they dont know.
> Mike


Pioneer (since we are using them as an example) is Not supplying the online sellers. They supply dealers and their distributors. In order for the distributors to keep their volume rates they dump product when times are slow. Where do you think they dump to ? 

Online sellers buy from who and when they can. It is not a consistent system. A good example would be the SoCal Morel dealer that recently got cut from Morel when they were caught seller to woofersetc. Morel also made it clear that there is no warranty attached and any sales that came from it were unauthorized. 

To make matters worse - woofersetc advertised Tempo 6 ($340SRP) for $200, what they actually sent was Tempo6X ($250SRP). So you buy a $250SRP set of speakers for $200 and have what for coverage ? Great deal there ! Im sure just about any person could get a similar price working with their local dealer.


----------



## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

WRX/Z28 said:


> What should pioneer do with the B-stock products? Throw them out?
> 
> Also, Who says the product is coming directly from pioneer?
> 
> BTW, IMO (and many others opinion) pioneer does suck!


Suck ? They gargle and swallow too !!


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> Suck ? They gargle and swallow too !!


Pioneer, the dirty porn star of the car audio world. lol


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Deton Nation said:


> I would say the manufacturers are partly responsible. How come I had to pay full price to an authorized dealer for a Pioneer product to get a warranty when I could go online and pay half. The manufacturer (PIoneer) must be supplying their products cheap to the online store, knowing they can shirk their warranty which is ****tty of the manufacturer, and creating a big question mark of why this duality is allowed to exist in the first place.
> Mike


This is NOT how this works for us.


----------



## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> This is NOT how this works for us.


OK. Then please enlighten us on how it goes down. I suppose the example with the distributors is correct?
Thanks.
Mike


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

6spdcpe is absolutely right, and yet I agree that manufacturers have played a role in the current situation - actually, two:

1) By following "push"-distribution sales practices regardless of their unsustainability. 

Salespeople get paid on sales volume, so they are incentivized to move boxes - even when it's more boxes than the dealer can possibly use. 

The manufacturer will discount more for a bigger order (classical thinking is that a larger order shows more commitment to the brand - and is a defensive move preventing the dealer from buying much from competitors). 

So the dealer takes the lower per-unit price - but moves the extra stock to a unauth reseller who will not offer any services, and does not maintain an install bay (so he has no real-world experience with the product) - and so operates at slimmer margins. 

2) By creating a race to the bottom in unit pricing, where lower and lower pricing per unit was also unsustainable - since to make any money, unit volume had to continue to increase every year, and as soon as it stopped increasing, there was no money to do anything. No training, no advertising. This also drives bad decisions in push distribution.


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Deton Nation said:


> OK. Then please enlighten us on how it goes down.


If you have a warehouse with no install bays, no installer workmen's comp, no garagekeeper's insurance, no retail-location needs, no Yellow Pages bills, no display requirements, no salesperson's performance-based pay plans, and the only employees you need are people who can pick orders, your operating margins can be MUCH lower.

See my example above regarding how prices get somewhat lower for the largest purchases. 

But most of the lower prices seen on the Internet come from razor-thin margins due to not having to run an install and sales display - equipped store. Since that is where you learn what works and what doesn't - in the board and in the cars - these guys don't have any direct experience, they just sell what people ask for.


----------



## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

Thanks!
Mike


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Some of the margins are not as "razor thin" as you'd think. 

We're also describing how some of the larger internet retailers aquire product, and just one method. The reality here is that there is no set standard for how internet retailers aquire their gear, so you are left wondering: Am I getting a brand new A-stock piece that just loses it's warranty? or am I getting someones returned, repacked, used, repaired, or otherwise substandard b-stock gear?


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

WRX/Z28 said:


> We're also describing how some of the larger internet retailers aquire product, and just one method. The reality here is that there is no set standard for how internet retailers aquire their gear, so you are left wondering: Am I getting a brand new A-stock piece that just loses it's warranty? or am I getting someones returned, repacked, used, repaired, or otherwise substandard b-stock gear?


I agree with the above (I reserve comment about the margins... "razor-thin" is subjective, and I don't want to have a discussion with actual numbers in it : )


----------



## Mack (Jul 27, 2007)

The Million Dollar Man said it best..."Every Man Has His Price". 

You can look at steel dumping, cheap furniture, or anything other product that can be bought. _Most_ people buy the cheapest thing they can to get by. There's even more incentive when you can get the same exact product for 30%-60% cheaper online. I've bought most of my equipment from B&M stores, but anything in the last 4 years has been online only. 

Selection, price, and my ability to hook up an amp, or wire a HU, has influenced this trend. Not to mention when I started to understand wiring, install work, and what to look for, my first install really made me mad! I saw that the shop that installed my subs, wired the amp for a 2-ohm mono load, when it is not stable at that rating. Somehow it never blew (MTX, love it or hate it), but really shied me away from a shop touching my stuff. That shop went under, but the only other local place tried to pimp Visonik and Boss on me.....

Enter ECA, the IDQ boner a few years ago, and my continuing thirst for knowledge and better sound, I haven't bought anything other than some 4 ga. wire and a fuse holder, in person, since. Most shops do not sell great SQ equipment either, so that shies me away as well.


----------



## Morts (May 28, 2009)

I think a lot is where you live. Like I said before there are 2 shops in my area. I have a choice between 6 brands and most are Junk. I was in New York City at a few car audio shops and the selection was massive. I guess if I had a couple shops like I seen in NYC I would probably spend the few extra bucks to support them. Dont get me wrong I bought a few things from my local shop over the last few weeks because they were just CLOSE on price of course I spent probably 30 bucks more but I did not care because I had them that day no waiting. When my local shops that carried HiFonics and Orion stuck with the BRAND after they sold out to the Chinese and did not really expand their product line it turned me off, so I started buying more online.


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

JMachan said:


> I get the impression that some people feel that B&M are simply entitled to exist and make a profit. No. You're not entitled to my money. You have to earn it.


Bingo!

B&M stores should not be charity cases. If they offer a service that the public wants, and their work is satisfactory, they'll usually stay in business. If either of those things are not true, then tough luck. If you go out of business, all that means is the consumer hath spoken.

By the way, guys, stop with the "buying stuff for less money is bad for the economy" crap. This has been disproven time and time again.


----------



## KAPendley (Nov 19, 2007)

cperlas said:


> Also, as a former business owner, restaurant if curious, it doesn't matter what we've established as our goals as far as customer service, that ******* who told us he's enthusiastic, now thinks he deserve more money, and just would put in the work you expected. Every single business owner say they go above and beyond customer expectations, but honestly, how many do we personally service, and how many did lazy ******* did? Employee actions unfortunately gets taken as the whole business, and I guarantee, at least one employee had pissed somebody enough to stay away, and they're taking their friends with them.


I applaud you for going into a business that is more stressful than most. Hope it brings you much success.

I do believe I gave my best, and my shop had a good name, because of its size. Me and one other installer, with me handling OR overseeing all customer transactions. If my employee got out of line, I would intervene...so there was no doubt in the customers mind that the OWNER of the shop cared about his name, because as any shop owner knows, the shop is a direct reflection on him. On of off duty...so to speak.


----------



## KAPendley (Nov 19, 2007)

truckboattruck said:


> Whew, a little heated up aren't we CCSS. I am one of those employed by a shop and I still love it. Everything you wrote is true. It's a business, and cutting out the middle man does hurt. I see it almost everyday. Someone comes in and browses the store, heads home, and in a bout 2 weeks comes back with an Ebay item. Of course we can't match Sonic Electronixx, but we can't pass up that install, especially as slow as times have been. I gotta get paid, the kids need milk, etc. I am never one to turn my back on anyone. As an installer, I get asked for advice or technical help. I can always say, "I get paid to do it, not to teach it." I don't however. It's part of the way the shop is. I don't go to the store front and try to ream people. I want customers to be satisfied and feel comfortable with the product they purchased and (keyword) *service* received. I'm sorry for any bad experiences suffered. All shops aren't the same, but we are all trying to hack out a living. Cut the mom and pop shop a little slack fellas.


Dude, its not because of bad experiences I suffered that I get pissed, just the state of things and those that think they know it all, when they have never been in the shoes of ownership.

Its great to hear that you still enjoy installing, regardless of some of the bs that we, as installers, have to put up with. And Im not trying to offend you here, but there is a huge difference between working for a shop and owning one. You will not understand unless you make a go at it.

I used to think I knew when I was installing at different shops, and after owning one, I ate that **** quick. Two different worlds.


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

MarkZ said:


> By the way, guys, stop with the "buying stuff for less money is bad for the economy" crap. This has been disproven time and time again.


I see no reason that buying things for less money is neccessarily bad for the economy. 

I am not sure that selling gear to consumers the way we are talking about is ultimately good for the industry (by this I mean manufacturers). It eliminates a useful feedback loop for product information and improvements.

In business terms, car audio gear as a category has too low a barrier to entry. Almost anyone can get into the business - without adding any value (technology, application knowledge, or consumer awareness).

So currently the car audio business is like the airlines - we have too many suppliers, and some will need to go. Virtue will not dictate - as much as we would like - who will remain.


----------



## 1sty (Jun 24, 2009)

Causes:

1. Manufacturers out sourcing production to India/Asia- This cheapens the quality of the top brands and via knock offs and design theft increases the quality of lesser known brands. This means is there really any true designer and manufacture making a better product know or is it all build houses and rebadged drivers made by other companies? What is the value in a company that just peices together a mix of other peoples products and goods?

2. Rockford and others going to Bestbuy / Big box dealers- For the want to move the most units possible, very solid companies have to make units cheaper and cheaper to make big boxers happy. In the mean time the small shops that built RF get destroyed since BB will offer free installs now and again. Even those installs are so bad they typically are not worth paying for, the public perception is that the small shops have been screwing them for years and BB is now just as good.

3. Higher end retailers go cheap - Tweeter, sound advice, and others bring in lesser products to try and appear like they are not more expensive when the reality is that they were but that's because they had better products. This just saturates the market with more junk then solid products also the knowledge base of the industry is drying up as the best people at these companies start leaving.

4. Small shops and the top tier box moving stores have terrible return policies. At tweeter even though we would often ignore the policy for a customer, it was still written that damage caused by a bad install or from improper use was not covered. This is whats going to kill 90% of audio so what is really the difference between buying online and going to a shop for most people if the warranty is denied either way, might as well buy the unit as cheap as possible.

5. Online only manufacturers like eD and Adire make BIG strides into the typical brick and morter brands. Rather superior (adire) or not (eD) the perception is that they are as good or better then what you can buy in stores for a good deal less money.

6. Cars factory stereos start being "integrated" - Both in shape and in other areas some brands become so complicated to remove that its just not worth it for head unit install costs. Also the newer factory units are as good if not better to many peoples ears then the aftermarket stuff. Changing the speakers and adding amps does no good as then you have the factory DSP to deal with. So 10 years ago you needed $20 in material for a head pop- now it could be over $500. This takes away a HUGE market for car audio which is the middle class and upper class young professional that could afford the good stuff and would spend the money when it was realistic.

7. The internet brings DIY installation help to the masses - Although alot of folks like ourselves thought we were helping out people online to get through and even do a great job at their own installs. What we also did was give confidence to many others to try it themselves. This took away alot of installation business from install shops.

8. Manufacturers have there cake and eat it too - Many companies pretend to protect their dealers with warranty policies that the general public doesnt give a crap about for reason 4. All the while they know damn well that the $10000/year buy in they are now making dealers commit to is forcing them to shuffle off unsold products to internet dealers.

9. Small shops stop publishing pricing and refuse to advertise under MAP - If I can purchase box A at an online vendor with free shipping for $200 and I have to call a local store to find out the same information and they want $300 for the same box, rather they are willing to work with the price a bit or not doesn't matter, its too late for that.

10. The art of haggling dies - The average person wants to compare a few websites these days and then makes a decision. They are not going to spend the time driving around all day to try and haggle over the price of something. So the company that can publish the lowest price is going to likely get the business so long as their customer service isn't monumentally terrible.

11. Many shops have a complete lack of real installation ability, knoweldge, and customer service. As a teenage I had no less then 5 different shops screw up my cars and not really stand behind their work. This lead me and many others to either give it up or learn to do it myself. This just continued to erode any perceived value in "professional installation".


12. Manufacturing marketing becomes more powerful then engineering. When we only had small stores to set people straight the marketing crap was very easily filtered. However the mass adoption of MAX power ratings and outright stupidity plastered all over boxes plus the whoring of bad information on the net completely blinded the average consumer. Also this made people start shopping by brand name and no longer with their ears. 



There is only 1 shop left around me and that is a Boomer Mclouds. 
They have good installers but their prices are at MAP or higher and this is simply not ever going to be acceptable to the general public anymore when I can order the same thing from any online vendor for sometimes 1/2 the price. 
The reality is that most of the stuff sold on Sonicelectronics and the other online guys are legit products. They are not knock offs or used. They are new and factory sealed. So the current marketing attempts to scare people away simply is not going to work. I think the fact that its them or nothing now will likely keep them in business. Although you wouldnt know it from looking at the show room. Again, what the hell is the point of going to a brick and morter store when they have almost nothing to listen to?

If a car audio shop wants to survive they need to advertise prices on a website that are inline with what the market will bear, and for the love of god publicly out the manufacturers that object.
They need to keep better demo stock.
Manufactures need to start warrantying burnt coils and such if bought from an authorized dealer.
For the love of god get back to basics with intelligent installers and sales people. Stop pushing these massive amplifiers when something half the size is all someone really wants. 
Shop owners can use the net, get on boards like this, and even start your own area audio clubs. The sound off competitions don't really matter any more so don't waste money on them its all about the free flow of information. Why would the average guy care about who spend $30,000 on a $30,000 to make it sound really good but the vast majority of money was spend on looks. This makes the entire industry look ridiculous.
I have to admit, I loved Steve browns alpine installs but the typically person looking at a car thinking that's what they need to do to sound great just shakes their head and says forget it.

Lastly, to those who want to save the industry we have to be honest about it and to do that I think we need some realistic and impartial product comparisons. I far to often used to rear reviews that seemed everything did about the same but was always the best they ever tested. It was clearly biased. 
How the hell in good conscience can someone test a 300 watt rms specified subwoofer with a 3000 watt commercial amplifier? 
That is BS. Test the speaker with the published stats and grade it from their. If a lanzer happens to beat a JL then so be it. If it doesnt beat it but comes close for a fraction of the price then publish it. And if the JL just DESTROYs the lanzar then publish that.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Deton Nation said:


> OK. Then please enlighten us on how it goes down. I suppose the example with the distributors is correct?
> Thanks.
> Mike


I can't speak for other manufacturers, but here's how it works for us:

We sell to authorized distributors and authorized dealers. 

When you order a product from these other guys, sometimes they have it in stock and sometimes they don't. In many cases, they don't have these things in stock. If they don't, they take your order but they don't charge your card. They call their "contacts" all over the country until they find someone who is willing to sell them the product at or near dealer cost. They have it shipped the cheapest way possible and then they ship it to you. The serial numbers are removed. In some cases, they buy B-stock, used or discontinued gear. 

We provide warranty on items purchased from authorized retailers. Our warranty covers defects in material, workmanship and design. We usually give customers a break on burned voice coils, etc the first time and sometimes the second. We don't provide repeat warranty for people who continually blow stuff up. Your warranty with us is good from the day you purchase the product from an authorized retailer until the warranty period is up. We don't charge a restocking fee. Read the fine print for many of these web sellers. They charge a restocking or processing fee and won't provide service on anything they deem as abuse--not even the first time. Additionally, once they've replaced or fixed the unit once, the warranty is up. These reseller warranties are designed to make you think you get a suitable alternative to the factory warranty, but in reality it isn't as comprehensive.

If you don't need a warranty, have no interest in the future of the products that feed your hobby, don't believe that R&D and innovation cost money, have no need for your local shop for anything, and are willing to take a chance that the product you'll buy is used, defective, poorly fixed, blemished, fake, incomplete or stolen, then you have nothing to lose. 

The ultimate consequences of all of this are that companies who build great stuff will no longer be able to afford to build great stuff until the MAJORITY of the business is done online and the majority of consumers don't need the services of a competent and qualified installer. By that time, it'll be impossible to build a business case for developing cool stuff and we'll be back to products that perform like crap and that come with all kinds of BS marketing to suggest that they're high end. Only companies with two employees will be able to afford to stay in business and all the products will come from the same three manufacturers. 

SO, by all means, save yourself 50 bucks on your next pair of speakers and hope they'll be the last ones you want to purchase.


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

I don't think your list of "causes" is really causal, but I applaud the energy. 



1sty said:


> If a car audio shop wants to survive they need to advertise prices on a website that are inline with what the market will bear, and for the love of god publicly out the manufacturers that object.


Easy to say... but when you do the math, it doesn't pencil out. You know mow much it costs to have insurance for a couple of expensive cars left overnight? Advertising? 

Those of us who have owned shops know the math...



1sty said:


> They need to keep better demo stock.


Certainly. But demos ain't free. How can we pay for it if we are chopping prices? 



1sty said:


> Manufactures need to start warrantying burnt coils and such if bought from an authorized dealer.


Really? Why? 



1sty said:


> For the love of god get back to basics with intelligent installers and sales people.


While I totally agree, the only way to get smart people into this job is to pay them better - not worse. 

There seems to be a general thought that shop owners are vacationing in Antigua or something. I promise that ain't the case.


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> When you order a product from these other guys, sometimes they have it in stock and sometimes they don't.


But Andy, in the current environment, half the dealers are on credit hold at any given time anyway...



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ... don't believe that R&D and innovation cost money...
> 
> The ultimate consequences of all of this are that companies who build great stuff will no longer be able to afford to build great stuff...


But Andy, when the stuff gets transshipped, doesn't Harman get paid the same? Does it hurt your P+L directly?


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

VP Electricity said:


> But Andy, in the current environment, half the dealers are on credit hold at any given time anyway...
> 
> 
> 
> But Andy, when the stuff gets transshipped, doesn't Harman get paid the same? Does it hurt your P+L directly?


I'm not sure what you mean by directly. Most of the car audio business is still done by B&M dealers. The more sales they lose to unauthorized sites, the more pressure is put on the dealer cost and the lower the margin to us and to them. This is all for the sake of maintaining an existing dealer base. After R&D and selling expenses our margin is thin as it is for many companies. In many cases, the products that are really needed in the market place cost so much to develop that they never return on the investment--the other products make up for them, hopefully. 

So, the lower our margin, the less money we have to develop great stuff. This is true for all car audio companies. If all the business was done online and there were no more B&Ms, this model would be different, but it wouldn't be better. No one can afford to build the kinds of products you more-accomplished DIYers require if you're the only customer base. 

So, the few of you DIYers who buy as cheaply as you can without regard for warranty don't really affect the market, but you do reduce the viability of the development of high-end products. The others who don't care about the quality of the product they buy and are happy to have some third rate crap affect the market for real gear because they provide a market for the garbage and reduce the market for the better gear they might buy if they talked to someone who could steer them in a better direction. Few websites besides Crutchfield provide that service.

All of this comes down to whether you want to take a short term or long term view--just like with everything else. Nothing is free.

I wonder how many of you appreciate the help I try to provide on this forum enough to consider buying a JBL product. If the answer is "none", then why do I do this? If I took the short term view, you guys would lose the benefit of my expertise and I'd lose the benefit of better understanding your perspectives.


----------



## KAPendley (Nov 19, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by directly. Most of the car audio business is still done by B&M dealers. The more sales they lose to unauthorized sites, the more pressure is put on the dealer cost and the lower the margin to us and to them. This is all for the sake of maintaining an existing dealer base. After R&D and selling expenses our margin is thin as it is for many companies. In many cases, the products that are really needed in the market place cost so much to develop that they never return on the investment--the other products make up for them, hopefully.
> 
> So, the lower our margin, the less money we have to develop great stuff. This is true for all car audio companies. If all the business was done online and there were no more B&Ms, this model would be different, but it wouldn't be better. No one can afford to build the kinds of products you more-accomplished DIYers require if you're the only customer base.
> 
> ...



Andy, you're officially my new hero. Thank you sir


----------



## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I wonder how many of you appreciate the help I try to provide on this forum enough to consider buying a JBL product.


Well, I do appreciate your input, but I purchased Infinity subs 'cause JBL doesn't do neo . 

Unfortunately, it looks like Infinity doesn't do neo any more either .


----------



## Z3Sooner (Aug 2, 2008)

I haven't read this entire thread, but it appears there are several shop owners and even mfgr's reps here so I'll give you my perspective from the consumer's point of view:

I live in Wichita, Kansas. It's not a huge metropolis, but it IS a market of more than 1 million people. Here's a small and incomplete list of manufacturers that I CANNOT purchase without a 2-3 hour drive to Oklahoma City or Kansas City:

ARC AUDIO!!!!
Zapco
McIntosh
Audio Control
Audison
Genesis
Dynaudio
Anything sold by Madisound except Eclipse
Image Dynamics
DLS
Rainbow
RE Audio
Morel
Soundstream.......

I could go on. Now, as for what's available:

Anything sold at Best Buy, Ultimate Electronics, etc.
Eclipse - except nobody caries their higher end stuff
Alpine
JL Audio
Kicker
Pioneer
Panasonic
etc.


That's about it. So, at today's gas prices the stuff I want is a minimum 1 day trip and $80 or so in gas. Now, I am more than capable of properly installing equipment without frying voice coils and blowing amps. I know, some aren't. But I am. However, if I buy something at a B&M store, I don't get the full warranty unless I have them install it. So, there's another $100.

So, let's say I'm looking at an Arc Audio KS300.4 and it costs $450.00 at a B&M store. Add another $180.00 and that's $630.00. So, it I can buy it for $330.00 online and install it myself, I can buy the freakin' thing TWICE and still be out very little money. So, even if I need to buy something twice 25% of the time, I'm still far ahead of the game.

Now, let's look at the last couple of experiences I've had at B&M stores.

I had a brand new set of 5 1/4" Rainbow SLCs installed in my car and I was a little unhappy with the midbass response. I decided I wanted to talk to someone face to face so I went to a local shop that has been here for 30 years. I told him what speakers I had and asked him if there were any ways to improve the midbass response. He told me that they were cheap internet speakers and directed me to a new set of Pioneer speakers for $250 + install. I walked out.

About a month ago I just need a mini-anl fuse. It took me 5 stops just to find someone who KNEW what a mini-anl fuse was, and a 6th stop to find someone who actually had one. He only had an 80amp fuse and told me it would be fine for an 8ga. power wire. When I told him I wouldn't put an 80a fuse on an 8ga. wire he told me the system would sound a good deal better with all 4ga. power wire anyway and proceeded to try to sell me 4ga. wire and new fuses.

I actually tried to buy my Arc Audio KS300.4 locally at the Arc Audio dealer. When I went by I was told by the owner that they no longer carried Arc Audio. When I asked why he said because nobody wanted it. He said he could demo the KS amp next to an Alpine PDX, the KS clearly sounded better and cost less, but the customer would pick the more expensive Alpine every time. I ended up calling Arc Audio and getting permission to buy one over the phone from the Tulsa Arc Audio dealer.

I went into another local shop because I just needed a set of inexpensive interconnects. The salesperson told me I was wasting my money and I really would hear a huge difference if I spent $150 for a pair of ONE GAUGE monster interconnects.

This is just a few of the experiences I've had when I've tried to do things locally. So, can you tell me WHY I would want to buy locally? You can't. Dealers can blame Manufacturers. As the following quote shows Manufacturers are even willing to blame consumers:



> If you don't need a warranty, have no interest in the future of the products that feed your hobby, don't believe that R&D and innovation cost money, have no need for your local shop for anything, and are willing to take a chance that the product you'll buy is used, defective, poorly fixed, blemished, fake, incomplete or stolen, then you have nothing to lose.


Nice guilt trip, but the reality is very simple: It's MY FREAKIN' MONEY!!! If you want my money you have to give me a GOOD reason to spend it with you, and you're not doing it. DONE!! FINI!!

It's called perceived value and the B&M stores have NONE. The people who are doing the buying don't see the VALUE in going to your store. So, whether it be marketing or service or whatever, it's your job to show us the VALUE of coming to you. If you can't, then someone else will move in and do it. 

Sorry, but that's the reality of it. Both the dealers and manufacturers have forgotten that we are the customer. They would rather spend their time guilting, scaring or BSing us into spending our money than actually giving us real value. That's the way it feels as a customer in this market.

You can argue all day long about whether my opinion is correct or fair and it won't sell one more amplifier. When it comes to getting someone to spend their money, perception is everything. If the consumer feels there's no value there, then there isn't. If you want to survive, you have to change that.

Those are simple economic principles that apply to every market or industry.

Your industry is perceived primarily as a bunch of snake oil salesmen who are more concerned about selling someone as much cheap crap as possible regardless of what it actually sounds like, and who are willing to make up any amount of junk science to do it. Obviously there are good, honest shops an manufacturers out there, but perception is everything.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Sounds like you fit the category of "nothing to lose". I'm not laying a guilt trip on anyone and if there are no good dealers in Wichita, then there are no good dealers. I'm doing all I can to develop products that do provide a value and I have as much trouble finding retailers who can do a good job representing them as you have in finding a dealer who can do a good job of providing you acceptable service. Are there good dealers? Yes, despite your experiences and some of mine. 

So, are you saying there's no snake oil sold in your list of products you desire and can't find? 

BTW, I don't own a store, but I did spend 15 years working in them.


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> IThe more sales they lose to unauthorized sites, the more pressure is put on the dealer cost and the lower the margin to us and to them.


Andy, I'm pretty sure that Car Toys and Best Buy would be beating the snot out of Harman for better pricing, regardless of the internet. That concept seems dubious to me. 



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I wonder how many of you appreciate the help I try to provide on this forum enough to consider buying a JBL product. If the answer is "none", then why do I do this? If I took the short term view, you guys would lose the benefit of my expertise and I'd lose the benefit of better understanding your perspectives.


Earlier in my CE career, I really liked a number of JBL products. At various times, I have really liked the coaxials and at times the subs. My first sale of JBL car audio was in 1987.

I have seen very little JBL distribution in the PNW the last few years. Also, we seem to have divergent product philosophies, and as you can no doubt understand, distribution philosophy has a lot to do with it as well. Years ago, I decided that dealing with public companies in the 12V CE space was usually a mistake from a business perspective, and I haven't yet changed my opinion. Too many incentives to make decisions which were not in my best interests. 

As a former director and manager of product planning in 12V, I welcome the opportunity to tell the story on forums like this, which I wish was communicated in other ways. I hope you gain a similar benefit from it. 

As I understand it, your product proposals are weighed against all the others in the Harman family that would use engineering time from the same group, isn't that correct? So while you are a dedicated JBL person, you don't really have dedicated JBL engineers, do you?


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Z3Sooner said:


> ... but that's the reality of it...
> 
> ...When it comes to getting someone to spend their money, perception is everything...
> 
> ... perception is everything.


So is it reality or is it perception? 

_You use that word a lot. I don't think it means what you think it means._

You use these terms a lot and inconsistently, but in the end, you seem like you're just pissed. 

What's your point? Get out of this industry? Start lying? Stop lying? I have no idea where you're going here.


----------



## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by directly. Most of the car audio business is still done by B&M dealers. The more sales they lose to unauthorized sites, the more pressure is put on the dealer cost and the lower the margin to us and to them. This is all for the sake of maintaining an existing dealer base. After R&D and selling expenses our margin is thin as it is for many companies. In many cases, the products that are really needed in the market place cost so much to develop that they never return on the investment--the other products make up for them, hopefully.
> 
> So, the lower our margin, the less money we have to develop great stuff. This is true for all car audio companies. If all the business was done online and there were no more B&Ms, this model would be different, but it wouldn't be better. No one can afford to build the kinds of products you more-accomplished DIYers require if you're the only customer base.
> 
> ...


Andy .. Send me a dealer app ! :laugh:


----------



## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Z3Sooner said:


> I haven't read this entire thread, but it appears there are several shop owners and even mfgr's reps here so I'll give you my perspective from the consumer's point of view:
> 
> I live in Wichita, Kansas. It's not a huge metropolis, but it IS a market of more than 1 million people. Here's a small and incomplete list of manufacturers that I CANNOT purchase without a 2-3 hour drive to Oklahoma City or Kansas City:
> 
> ...


Point taken, however there are several on your list that you Can purchase and legitimately !


----------



## Morts (May 28, 2009)

Andy I was wondering if you have an authorized JBL dealer in Buffalo,NY ? The two shops I visit do not carry any JBL products whatsoever.


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

1sty said:


> Causes:
> 
> 
> 8. Manufacturers have there cake and eat it too - Many companies pretend to protect their dealers with warranty policies that the general public doesnt give a crap about for reason 4. All the while they know damn well that the $10000/year buy in they are now making dealers commit to is forcing them to shuffle off unsold products to internet dealers.


I have often wondered that some manufacturers were doing just this. They say "you only get a warranty if you purchase from our authorized stores" then you see the fricking internet literally FLOODED with last year's models. There is NO WAY IN HELL that so many internet retailers can get this much product from a shady distributor or a single store. IMHO, it HAD to come from the manufacturer.... or "marketer" in the case of the company that I am talking about since all their stuff is built overseas and sold here in the USA. 

As for the company that did this, they tell their B & M stores that they are protecting them. As for any consumer who purchases unauthorized, well that consumer is SOL because this company will NOT issue a RMA# without a valid receipt from one of its legit dealers.

Yep, they are having their cake and eating it to. The last year's stock has been relinquished to internet retailers and they do not have to warranty the units because they were sold unauthorized.


----------



## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I have often wondered that some manufacturers were doing just this. They say "you only get a warranty if you purchase from our authorized stores" then you see the fricking internet literally FLOODED with last year's models. There is NO WAY IN HELL that so many internet retailers can get this much product from a shady distributor or a single store. IMHO, it HAD to come from the manufacturer.... or "marketer" in the case of the company that I am talking about since all their stuff is built overseas and sold here in the USA.
> 
> As for the company that did this, they tell their B & M stores that they are protecting them. As for any consumer who purchases unauthorized, well that consumer is SOL because this company will NOT issue a RMA# without a valid receipt from one of its legit dealers.
> 
> Yep, they are having their cake and eating it to. The last year's stock has been relinquished to internet retailers and they do not have to warranty the units because they were sold unauthorized.


My point exactly.


----------



## simplyclean (Jan 23, 2009)

Z3Sooner said:


> I haven't read this entire thread, but it appears there are several shop owners and even mfgr's reps here so I'll give you my perspective from the consumer's point of view
> 
> This is just a few of the experiences I've had when I've tried to do things locally. So, can you tell me WHY I would want to buy locally? You can't. Dealers can blame Manufacturers. As the following quote shows Manufacturers are even willing to blame consumers:
> 
> ...


That pretty much sums it up. I used to sell car audio a few years back and being back on the other side of the counter as a consumer, I don't see really see any value from buying from a local dealer from recent experience, just a bunch of aggravation based on experiences similar to yours. 

I know what I want. I don't need it installed. I don't need to hear a salespitch about why one manufacturer product is **** and another one is so much better than another... (let me draw my own conclusions). I don't need to a/b their speakers on an open soundboard either on imprint. I just want a box and that's it. I'm buying a new amp for my brother soon. I've priced them online and on ebay to get an idea of how much I want to pay when I walk into a local shop to see if they want to quickly push a box. I will not pay msrp because the shop isn't going to give me any added value.

However, if I was getting installed, I'd gladly pay whatever the shop charges me even if it's full msrp. People who go to a shop and demo stuff, get a list of what to buy, go to ebay and bring the stuff back to install are cheapasses and should be charged extra and have no warranty on the install if the failure is due to their equipment.

Unfortunately good shops are hard to find and the only place I'd trust my car to is 10 hours away... and I live in a big city.


----------



## hvacguy (Jul 4, 2009)

I have bought all of my car audio online for years. I understand that it is not good for the local business, but as it is my hobby I have to be frugal. I like to buy lots of different equipment and it just wouldn't be affordable paying retail.I really do all of my own work and I just don't trust anyone with my car other than myself.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I have often wondered that some manufacturers were doing just this. They say "you only get a warranty if you purchase from our authorized stores" then you see the fricking internet literally FLOODED with last year's models. There is NO WAY IN HELL that so many internet retailers can get this much product from a shady distributor or a single store. IMHO, it HAD to come from the manufacturer.... or "marketer" in the case of the company that I am talking about since all their stuff is built overseas and sold here in the USA.
> 
> As for the company that did this, they tell their B & M stores that they are protecting them. As for any consumer who purchases unauthorized, well that consumer is SOL because this company will NOT issue a RMA# without a valid receipt from one of its legit dealers.
> 
> Yep, they are having their cake and eating it to. The last year's stock has been relinquished to internet retailers and they do not have to warranty the units because they were sold unauthorized.


I can't speak for other manufacturers, but this isn't how we do it. 

On what do you base your statement that "there's no way in hell that..."? If it's simply conjecture on your part, then it's your opinion and you're entitled to it, no matter whether it's valid or not. What I'm telling you about the way many of these resellers work is that even though you may see the product listed on a bunch of sites, that doesn't mean they have it in their warehouses. I do have experience and I'm not giving you my opinion. 

It's a simple fact that if ALL ELSE IS EQUAL, consumers choose to pay less. The fact is, however, that all things are rarely equal. If you don't require the services of a professional or can't find one, then there's no reason for you to pay for the service you don't get. Your requirements are YOURS, though, and despite how strongly you feel about them or about your experiences they may not apply to everyone. 

A 1978 Chevy Chevette doesn't appeal to me, but that doesn't mean that it's a P.O.S and that I should berate the company that made them and all the dealers who sold them and claim that the entire auto industry is nothing but a bunch of hacks and thieves based on my opinion of that car. The same holds true for car audio retailers. 

My mom lives in a little town in Texas and when I go visit her, I usually choose a couple of projects to do around the house that she can't do herself. There used to be a great hardware store that had everything. The guy that owned the store couldn't explain to me how to cut a crown moulding, but he had all the tools required to do it. It didn't matter that he couldn't explain it because I already knew how to do it. I didn't walk out or go on some home improvement forum and call him a hack because he couldn't tell me. I simply appreciated him for what he did offer. Stuff-Mart sells paint, drywall screws, a poor selection of low end hardware and other commonly needed items. The hardware store couldn't stay in business selling o-rings for faucets, specialty fasteners, hardwood mouldings, etc without the income from selling the common stuff too. Now, when I go to my mom's and try to help, I have to drive an hour to find stuff I need because the people in her town couldn't bring themselves to buy the commonly needed items from the shop that sold the rest of the stuff they needed too. Is it a big deal that he's closed? It's a bummer, but I didn't have to shop there very often. Is it a big deal for the rest of the people in that town? Might be now, but it wasn't when they were saving a dollar on a box of drywall screws or 50 cents on some paint at Stuff-Mart. Was it a big deal to the guy who owned the hardware store? Sure was. Is it worth a few extra bucks to keep local people employed? I think so. You may not. That means we disagree. We can, however, disagree without vilifying each other.


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I can't speak for other manufacturers, but this isn't how we do it.
> 
> On what do you base your statement that "there's no way in hell that..."? If it's simply conjecture on your part, then it's your opinion and you're entitled to it, no matter whether it's valid or not. What I'm telling you about the way many of these resellers work is that even though you may see the product listed on a bunch of sites, that doesn't mean they have it in their warehouses. I do have experience and I'm not giving you my opinion.


Woofers Etc. had pallets upon pallets of BNIB stock that was off the market for nearly 1.5 years. They even posted the photos to show the number of units that they had in stock from this particular manufacturer's prior model products. Sadly, they weren't the only online retailer who had these 500 and 1000 watt amplifiers and all had them for roughly the same price. For the record, it wasn't JL Audio that I was referring to either!

I just find it really suspect that so much of a particular product that was deemed "no longer available" over a year prior to this event just happens to show up on Woofer's Etc's website. Woofer's Etc. posting the 10 pallets of these products in photos as well as 25 stacks of stuff that wasn't on pallets in July 2008 just drove my suspicions up further. They easily had to 5,000 to 7,000 (if not MORE) BNIB units that had not been available for sale for over one year. I know, because purchased one of those amplifiers from my local dealer in February of 2007 on "closeout" for nearly 2x what Woofer's had them for nearly 1.5 years later. Making matters worse, mine was a display unit that was still 20 to 30% less than what they wanted for the current model.

Maybe I am wrong about my big conspiracy theory, but I questioned the "marketer", aka the manufacturer, about this and their answer was: "No comment."


----------



## Mack (Jul 27, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Is it worth a few extra bucks to keep local people employed? I think so.


 I agree 100% I've talked to my wife about my values, and she agreed, next time I get to buy an amp, U.S.A. made baby. Lunar, MMats, Zed, while the components are made overseas, the boards can be made here, as well as assembled here. I believe Lunar machines the heatsinks here, and I think all of them assemble them in house. Just the few people here that care about that, and buy these products can keep these fine brands, and their employees going (Nothing against JBL, as you make great amps, and I'd like to try one of your high-end automotive woofers, not to mention monitors, PA........). Same thing for my next woofer purchase, ID, SSA, FI, etc.

I carry this ideal over into many of my recent purchases. Bunn coffeemaker....made in US, my new exhaust, new fridge, etc. same story. Support your local businesses when you can, and support your country when you can. I've banned myself from buying anything from Walmart unless I absolutely have to. I know one local hardware store that I try and get to like Andy said. I love to go to farmer's markets in the summer for the best local produce, eggs, and enjoy the variety of produce I can find there. Not everything one would want to buy has an option for their country either. Head units, TVs, DVD players etc. are all pretty specific, so what can you do? 

As an example, the line of equipment I rep is German made, almost all of it. The cable, connectors, housings etc. are all made either in-house or in country. The fit and finish is perfect. The paint, edges, welds, are all smooth, well machined and looks/feels like quality. The connectors can probably be sourced to China, as well as the steel, aluminum, but they keep it all in-house/country. It shows too. That Dynomax exhaust you buy, may use my equipment for QC, so I get the service calls, spare parts, calibrations...the possibly cheaper Ebay special....well I'm not going to China anytime soon. That's a few people along the lines keeping the economy chugging, vs. unfortunatly having to collect unemployment like so many others.

Sorry, but end rant.

As it has been said before, I'd also have to drive quite far to see some products I'd be interested in. The manufacturers fault...no, but I won't buy much from the only local audio store around me, as they pimp Boss, Power Acoustik, Audiobahn and Visonik. Somebody wanting to add a little bass would be well of going there to buy their stuff and get it installed. Me trying to add a little clarity to my upper-midsection.....well I'm not buying their infinity refs either.


----------



## 1sty (Jun 24, 2009)

VP Electricity said:


> I don't think your list of "causes" is really causal, but I applaud the energy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is loosing a massive amounts of business completely instead of just 1o points on products really more affordable?
Consider the amount of simple over the counter sales you may be able to turn into install business, sell accessories, or even get to a better product. If no one even comes in because the products price is not either advertised or competitive, the business is done.




VP Electricity;777798
Certainly. But demos ain't free. How can we pay for it if we are chopping prices? [/QUOTE said:


> I agree completely and this is just one are manufacturers need to step up and support their dealers instead of crunching them. Perhaps a lease program where the dealer can either sell the demo unit at the end of the model year or exchange it for the new model.
> After all why should all the epxnese be on the dealers when we all know a sizable amount of peopler are going to go to the dealer to figure out what they want and then go get it online. That manufacturer makes the money either way.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## deadlift425 (May 11, 2009)

Buy from reputable sources, but don't be forced into paying marked up prices. Shop around, decide who you want to deal with, and make your decisions before purchasing.


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Mack said:


> I agree 100% I've talked to my wife about my values, and she agreed, next time I get to buy an amp, U.S.A. made baby.


Just one thing to keep in mind... Since we all have finite resources, when you spend more money on something than you should, it takes away from another purchase you can make which could ALSO help keep somebody employed.


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Mack said:


> I agree 100% I've talked to my wife about my values, and she agreed, next time I get to buy an amp, U.S.A. made baby. *Lunar*, MMats, Zed, while the components are made overseas, the boards can be made here, as well as assembled here. I believe Lunar machines the heatsinks here, and I think all of them assemble them in house. Just the few people here that care about that, and buy these products can keep these fine brands, and their employees going (Nothing against JBL, as you make great amps, and I'd like to try one of your high-end automotive woofers, not to mention monitors, PA........). Same thing for my next woofer purchase, ID, SSA, FI, etc.


I support a shop that is a little less than 30 minutes away and they sell Lunar as well as Digital Designs! The owner is cool as can be and from here on out, if I am buying something that can be obtained locally, it will be from him only! 

As for the shops in town, sorry Andy, but I refuse to purchase JL Audio from them. No matter what you go in there for, they try to cram JL Audio down your throat! Also, it is sad when Crutchfield beats them on price and I can get a "special order" item faster through Crutchfield, as they did with my 2006 Mustang's Stealthbox. I am not blasting legitimate manufacturers who deal in online sales, but I do question the shady business practices of companies like Memphis Car Audio and today's Soundstream!

Come to think of it, I may be sending you a PM about one those three local custom shops in Lafayette, Louisiana, soon because I don't think they are authorized to sell JL Audio! I am going to check them out again before I start pointing fingers because they may have changed their "high-end" line since December of last year. All I know is that they were NOT on JL Audio's list of authorized dealers yet they had JL as their premier line!


----------



## ISTundra (Jan 3, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT, you realize the Andy dude is with JBL, not JL? Look at his sig...

On another note... why is this thread tagged with "douche" and "stinkydicklicker"? TIA


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

MarkZ said:


> Just one thing to keep in mind... Since we all have finite resources, when you spend more money on something than you should, it takes away from another purchase you can make which could ALSO help keep somebody employed.


Assuming you spend 100% of your income...


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

VP Electricity said:


> Assuming you spend 100% of your income...


If you're not spending, you're saving. Which, in its various forms, is also good for the economy.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Mack said:


> I agree 100% I've talked to my wife about my values, and she agreed, next time I get to buy an amp, U.S.A. made baby. Lunar, MMats, Zed, while the components are made overseas, the boards can be made here, as well as assembled here. I believe Lunar machines the heatsinks here, and I think all of them assemble them in house. Just the few people here that care about that, and buy these products can keep these fine brands, and their employees going (Nothing against JBL, as you make great amps, and I'd like to try one of your high-end automotive woofers, not to mention monitors, PA........). Same thing for my next woofer purchase, ID, SSA, FI, etc.
> 
> I carry this ideal over into many of my recent purchases. Bunn coffeemaker....made in US, my new exhaust, new fridge, etc. same story. Support your local businesses when you can, and support your country when you can. I've banned myself from buying anything from Walmart unless I absolutely have to. I know one local hardware store that I try and get to like Andy said. I love to go to farmer's markets in the summer for the best local produce, eggs, and enjoy the variety of produce I can find there. Not everything one would want to buy has an option for their country either. Head units, TVs, DVD players etc. are all pretty specific, so what can you do?
> 
> ...


Point taken and I appreciate your thoughtful presentation. I also appreciate your decision and your conviction. I have absolutely no influence over the origin of our products, so I try to influence what I can.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

VP Electricity said:


> As I understand it, your product proposals are weighed against all the others in the Harman family that would use engineering time from the same group, isn't that correct? So while you are a dedicated JBL person, you don't really have dedicated JBL engineers, do you?


Almost...we're organized by segment rather than brand in product development. I'm also the GPLM for Infinity car audio products. My proposals are weighed against proposals for other consumer products and I share a resource pool with other GPLMs who manage other consumer products.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Morts said:


> Andy I was wondering if you have an authorized JBL dealer in Buffalo,NY ? The two shops I visit do not carry any JBL products whatsoever.


Dunno, but I'll check. This is a big problem for us--there are many markets where we don't have adequate representation at retail--we're working on it and cool, new and innnovative products are necessary to get better representation. We're working on those.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Mack said:


> The Million Dollar Man said it best..."Every Man Has His Price".
> 
> You can look at steel dumping, cheap furniture, or anything other product that can be bought. _Most_ people buy the cheapest thing they can to get by. There's even more incentive when you can get the same exact product for 30%-60% cheaper online. I've bought most of my equipment from B&M stores, but anything in the last 4 years has been online only.
> 
> ...


You might consider checking out North Olmstead Performance. Ask for James Shields. They aren't a JBL dealer (unfortunately for me), but it's a seriously high-quality operation and James is one of the most technically astute guys I know.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

1sty said:


> However most people do feel that the typical brick and mortar stores represent a failed business model that is simply unable to adapt as is the industry in general so its really killing itself.
> 
> Unfortunately we may be on a road where upgraded sound is a luxury few can afford to do right. However they can also mean that the factory stereo is so good few even care to. In some ways that's not bad, unless you own a store.
> 
> ...


Be careful when you use the word "most". That indicates more than half. have you done the research? "Many" might have been a better choice.

While I welcome the day when the quality of reproduction is so bad that a simple demonstration of better sound enlightens music lovers, the problem isn't data compression. The problem is dynamic range compression in recordings and poor performing playback systems.


----------



## JMachan (Jul 3, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Entitled to exist? Maybe not. Entitled to make a profit? Absolutely. Guess what? Even the internet retailer is making a profit.
> 
> People say profit like it's a four letter word. Every purchase you make has some profit in it for the seller. Head to the supermarket, they profit from every item of food you buy. Head to your utility company, they make a profit on the electricity they sell you. Place an auction on ebay, they make a profit on the auction. Hell, if you head to the gas station and fill up your tank, they are making a profit. It can't be avoided. Companies do not exist as a charitable contribution to the consumer. Profit is not a crime, nor is it immoral.
> 
> I agree that shops need to earn the business of it's patrons. In the same sense, consumers need to choose who they do business with more wisely. People will research a product until they make their eyes roll back in their head. Why not research the place you choose to buy from as much? It's not difficult to determine whether the shop you're in is a good shop or not. Heck, ask the other customers that are having work done. Do a search online. Ask to see some work they've done. Ask about their installation methods. Ask to talk to the installer that will be working on your vehicle. Put the same effort into choosing the place to buy, as you put into choosing what to buy.


Exactly how do you figure anyone is entitled to make a profit? Are we using the same word? Any business is entitled to TRY to make a profit. I don't begrudge profits. If you, as a business, can make a profit in an open market, then great. That means you've optomized for some customer base. That doesn't make you "entitled" to make a profit.

The whole 'people don't want companies to make profits' point is a straw man. The actual point people are arguing is this:

I THINK these are our common premises:
There is a pool of companies from which to make their purchases.
Different companies have different prices.
Different companies have different services.
Different companies have different risks associated with purchasing.

My point - customers have the right to do their own cost-benefit analysis. 

The point against which I'm arguing - B&M shops should get special consideration beyond the cost-benefit analysis.

In particular, if a company wants to price-fix and/or use "authorized dealers"...that's just part of the cost-benefit. Some people are willing to take the risk. Some are not. If people are getting burned, they will eventually stop. If they are not, then the benefit isn't there. The pendulum will swing...but it always comes back.

At the same time, I think that people SHOULD be educating each other about items in the the cost-benefit analysis. These include informing buyers about selling of stolen goods or mislabeled merchandise. They also include the reliability and service of non-authorized internet retailers. However, there are plenty of urban legends and so I'd hope people would have the decency to not talk based on rumor.

You're absolutel y right that people should put as much research into the shop as the product...and integrate that knowledge into their cost-benefit. I, for one, have done this with the shops in my area and several online retailers. I have come to conclusion that it's better for me to buy online.

It may be that the "authorized dealer" model needs to come to an end. It was a forced model that worked for many years, but that was largely because dealers had a monopoly. Manufacturers labeled products with generous MSRPs, giving shops high margins. The only place to buy was these shops and all of them were "on board" (good business decisions). However, now the shops have competition. It's not a fair fight regarding price, but who cares about fair in a fight for survival? It's not a fair fight for the internet retailers regarding the in-person, live-listening, smiling, handshake aspects.

Eventually the manufacturers may decide it's wiser to allow shops to operate at pricings closer to online. Then the pricing differences will be more modest and maybe the shops can reach a balance or advantage in the cost-benefit. Until then, I can afford to replace anything that goes bad at least once if not twice on line (which hasn't happened yet) as compared to shops and authorized retailers.


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

ISTundra said:


> 06BLMUSTANGGT, you realize the Andy dude is with JBL, not JL? Look at his sig...
> 
> On another note... why is this thread tagged with "douche" and "stinkydicklicker"? TIA


Oops... I was thinking about the other dude. Sorry Andy, I forgot you were with Harmon Industries.


----------



## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

When I worked in high end AV 15 years ago the business was great. Company was growing and opening new stores. Tons of money was being made. That company that once had 8 stores went bankrupt 2 years ago and now has 2 stores.

When I talked to one of the ex store managers, his response was "the internet killed us". I have to disagree. What killed them was resistance to change. What worked 15 years ago does not work today. The old days were great, but they are gone.

It is the same in my current business. We supply custom products that are made in China to Electronics and Medical OEM's. "Back in the day" there were fat margins to be made and lots of money going around. Independent reps made huge incomes by establishing "Good ol' boy" relationships with key accounts and having the right suppliers on their line cards. Most of my reps are still trying to do business the way that they did it 15 years ago and they are struggling. They just can't get it through their head that the customer's needs and competition will always evolve, and if you are not willing to change YOU WILL DIE.

General Motors thought that they would be the number one manufacturer of automobiles forever. What happened? Resistance to change.

IBM thought that they were the king of computers. You can't buy an IBM personal computer now. What happened? Resistance to change.

I know it is not quite that simple, but as soon as you think that your business model is the only way to do it, somebody is going to come along and kick you to the curb with a better way.

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger to reinvent the way that my company does business. It is going to be painful, but it is what I think we need to do to be successful in this changing world economy, and be a viable company 5-10 years from now. It will be the 3rd or 4th major change in 15 years. It is what successful companies do. Either embrace change, or accept your fate.


----------



## OGJordan (Sep 26, 2006)

I find it amusing when people use the warranty as a reason to buy at a shop. I'm 31 years old, I've been installing for friends since I was 14. When I started, I knew NOTHING, I learned on others cars; so I know I made multiple mistake. 

I have personally owned hundreds of pieces of equipment over the coarse of dozens of cars. I didn't discover online shopping until around 6-7 years ago so I've bought a great majority of things at a shop. 

My first "nice" system was in the mid 90s and included all Soundstream Reference series amps. I had a Ref 500 on my subs ran at 1 ohm mono. After 8 months of daily full tilt "bumping" my 4 12s in a wall, the amp shut off. It had melted the block where the power wire connected to the supply. I sent it in on warranty and it was repaired.

After the thousands and thousands of dollars, and probably a hundred amatuer installs, and hundreds of components purchased mostly beaten on and ran to the limits; I have never had a single piece of equipment have a single issue with the exception of the one premier amp over a decade ago back; myself and my friends have invested tens of thousands of dollars. 

Soooooooo.......if I have a bum subwoofer or deck come in that I paid half for because I bought it online and I need to buy another (also at half price) then I'm right back at what I would have paid at a shop anyway. And paying a shop double for EVERY single thing from wire to amps to speakers to connectors so I could save that $500 it would have cost me to replace that one amp 15 years ago? If there's anyway you can honestly justify that in your mind, you have a severe problem with reasoning and should truthfully see a psychologist at the very least. 

It would be so much better to admit the truth: you don't want to have to find a new job because people have figured out a way to save some cash. Tell that to the farmer, the small CD store owner, the huge backyard satellite installer, the blacksmith who installed horse shoes, the disco era shag carpet salesman, the shop that specialized in radios for the family before television: guess what? Things moved on. Those people either adapted, got a new job, or went bankrupt. Sure there's still a few mom and pop record stores selling $200 worth of CDs every week and turning a $30 profit, whining about ipods and downloads. You'll see that person stocking shelves at WalMart in a few weeks.


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Lots of good posts in this thread.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

OGJordan said:


> It would be so much better to admit the truth: you don't want to have to find a new job because people have figured out a way to save some cash.


 
I'm not worried about my job, I'd just like to be able to continue developing cool new stuff that consumers like you will eventually be able to enjoy. I'll still have a job if I have to apply my efforts to figuring out how to take another 50 cents out of the cost of a tweeter. It'll just be less fun for all of us.


----------



## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm not worried about my job, I'd just like to be able to continue developing cool new stuff that consumers like you will eventually be able to enjoy. I'll still have a job if I have to apply my efforts to figuring out how to take another 50 cents out of the cost of a tweeter. It'll just be less fun for all of us.


I think there is an issue right there. While you are busy trying to make more profit, smaller more versatile companies are innovating and building clientel based on passion and not to save a nickel.

Though I suppose the smaller shops dont have access to the technology pool as much as you guys, but there are some hella talented people out making new things happen. You just dont know what tomorrow will bring.
Mike


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Deton Nation said:


> While you are busy trying to make more profit, smaller more versatile companies are innovating and building clientel based on passion and not to save a nickel.
> 
> Mike


Hmmm...that's what we need...more small startups who aren't concerned with making a profit.


----------



## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

Sure the want to make a profit 

Take Fi Car Audio for example. I purchased a Fi Q 12" sub from them mainly through word of mouth, asking questions on forums. Very reasonable priced and it is an incredible sub! Im mystified how they can make such a great product at the price they are selling it at. I wonder what JBLs comparative product would cost? I bet a lot more.
Mike


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> This is a big problem for us--there are many markets where we don't have adequate representation at retail--we're working on it and cool, new and innnovative products are necessary to get better representation. We're working on those.


I think that with your switch to Oliver and CPD that problem SHOULD be addressed in my neck of the woods. 

Now you just need to train everyone. : )


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Deton Nation said:


> Sure the want to make a profit
> 
> Take Fi Car Audio for example. I purchased a Fi Q 12" sub from them mainly through word of mouth, asking questions on forums. Very reasonable priced and it is an incredible sub! Im mystified how they can make such a great product at the price they are selling it at. I wonder what JBLs comparative product would cost? I bet a lot more.
> Mike


What you are talking about here is a different business model which yields a different set of markups. The different business models have to be validated by their users surviving. 

Sundown, Fi, HAT, all those guys have good product at low prices - but it is NOT YET PROVEN that their business models - which yield those prices - will allow enough units sales AND enough profit for the company to survive over the long haul. 

I'm honestly surprised we haven't lost more hi-fi-oriented suppliers over the last 12 months. Very surprised.


----------



## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

innovation has costs that are tied to the price of the product being sold.:innovative products are such a small segment of sales initially.

My guess is Fi uses tried and true old tech and utilizes it with good materials. The end result is a great sub for a very reasonable cost. i have never heard of Fi developing some new radical technology. But they do license or use other non patented tech for there products.

Someone has to make the investment on new idea's. this requires a lot of money. For every idea that works there is a million that don't. Sure there are small companies that come out with something great. they are usually purchased by someone larger or they do not market the idea correctly and go out of business. where the intellectual property is auctioned off.


----------



## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

VP Electricity said:


> What you are talking about here is a different business model which yields a different set of markups. The different business models have to be validated by their users surviving.
> 
> Sundown, Fi, HAT, all those guys have good product at low prices - but it is NOT YET PROVEN that their business models - which yield those prices - will allow enough units sales AND enough profit for the company to survive over the long haul.
> 
> I'm honestly surprised we haven't lost more hi-fi-oriented suppliers over the last 12 months. Very surprised.


Those companies outsource there products to oversea's build houses. Sundown is a Zenon amp that is spec'd according to what Jacob wants. HAT is similar.

Like I said. Tried and known technology made with great parts. Oh yeah... great customer service.


----------



## simplyclean (Jan 23, 2009)

To me car audio started to die in the late 90s, when all the manufacturers got sold out, whored out and the market began to become oversaturated with product; everyone was making everything. Around this time, the automotive aftermarket industry started to take off competing for our money.

I don't understand why "performance" shops can sell parts at such low margins compared to car audio yet still exist, yet little mom and pop stores are supposively hurting because of the internet sales, which performance parts shops have to deal with all the time, but you don't see them complaining.

On the other hand, people these days will spend $400 on silly little aerodynamic pieces to put on their street driven car, yet cringe at the thought of spending that $400 just for an amp.

I don't think price is what killed the industry. kids don't care about car audio anymore


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

cubdenno said:


> Those companies outsource there products to oversea's build houses. Sundown is a Zenon amp that is spec'd according to what Jacob wants. HAT is similar.


The sourcing is not the business model. 90%+ of the comapnies out there use contract manufacturing. 

The distribution channel structure and the cost structure is what I'm talking about. That's where they are trying to innovate.


----------



## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

VP Electricity said:


> What you are talking about here is a different business model which yields a different set of markups. The different business models have to be validated by their users surviving.
> 
> Sundown, Fi, HAT, all those guys have good product at low prices - but it is NOT YET PROVEN that their business models - which yield those prices - will allow enough units sales AND enough profit for the company to survive over the long haul.
> 
> I'm honestly surprised we haven't lost more hi-fi-oriented suppliers over the last 12 months. Very surprised.


hmm... i dont know. They seemed very busy, though I have no idea of the internal workings of whether they are making a profit or not. It is going in a more budget minded direction. Internet -->sales. Lower overhead. They use a forum. Have some rediculous videos on you tube.. lol. Much smaller volume. Advertising methods that are all basically new media. They have a fan base, word of mouth and a quality value minded product. 

And I am in advertising, but certainly dont know how to run a large corporation (i can play one on tv.. heh), but can see the issues developing from going from older ways of doing business and trying to maneuver to newer methods and business models.


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Another kink is that the minimum order quantities with Asian manufacturers are a barrier to truly small-run companies. 

500 units or 1000 units is not scary when you have 250 or 500 dealers... but when you are waiting for the orders to show up on the web store, and you have a thousand bozes gathering dust... it gets a little dicey...


----------



## hardtymz2517 (Jun 11, 2009)

forget that first guy b****in' about the fall of audio shops on the first post. stuff ain't worth it as much as it's marked up at local shops. back in the day, those were amps. white crossfires, RF (yes, they were once good), art PPI, zappy's, etc. stuff these days is dumbed down and add stupid gadgets on them to look better instead of focusing on SQ. car shops are shady. i love how my old system got ganked, called local stores and sure enuff, a shop installed all my stuff into some black dudes car and never questioned it or wrote down the license plate number or never got a name. F to car audio shops. i never seen a car that my friends owned not get messed up by crappy installation and crappy products that are wayyyy overpriced from shops. i spend all my money gettin good, internet cheap products instead of paying some dude thousands just to put it in my car. i'm not stephen hawkins dude, i have a voltmeter and a screwdriver, i'm all good puttin my stuff in. i know many people that are hooked on crack (literally, up and beyond weed) working at these places. how do they even get hired? i never met a great person working at a shop or even knowledgeable and the owners always act like dicks for sum reason like they're tryin to put on a front. i mean seriously, i heard it costs 2000 just to install a clarion joyride deck in a car, i did it myself for free (sans a few wire connectors from wal-mart) seriously guys, no. someone has to tell them no. they'll just mess it up anyways. car audio places are bad but BB and former CC were worse. stop picking your nose and learn how to use a screwdriver to screw a screw in. ebay is your friend. car places wanted over 5 g's for the joyride and i got it with all the add-on kits form ebay for 500. if it breaks, it's almost cheap enuff to buy another one. i got a 900 clarion deck off ebay for 200 too. that was years ago and surprise, still working to this day. i make sure of it so i don't deal with you crazy car audio shop people and their babbles about warranty when warranties never cover anything anyway. car audio shops are like school in summertime. never seen a nice clean reputable one in my life. blang blang.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

^^^^^^^^^^


And there you have the average internet customer...


----------



## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

hardtymz2517 said:


> forget that first guy b****in' about the fall of audio shops on the first post. stuff ain't worth it as much as it's marked up at local shops. back in the day, those were amps. white crossfires, RF (yes, they were once good), art PPI, zappy's, etc. stuff these days is dumbed down and add stupid gadgets on them to look better instead of focusing on SQ. car shops are shady. i love how my old system got ganked, called local stores and sure enuff, a shop installed all my stuff into some black dudes car and never questioned it or wrote down the license plate number or never got a name. F to car audio shops. i never seen a car that my friends owned not get messed up by crappy installation and crappy products that are wayyyy overpriced from shops. i spend all my money gettin good, internet cheap products instead of paying some dude thousands just to put it in my car. i'm not stephen hawkins dude, i have a voltmeter and a screwdriver, i'm all good puttin my stuff in. i know many people that are hooked on crack (literally, up and beyond weed) working at these places. how do they even get hired? i never met a great person working at a shop or even knowledgeable and the owners always act like dicks for sum reason like they're tryin to put on a front. i mean seriously, i heard it costs 2000 just to install a clarion joyride deck in a car, i did it myself for free (sans a few wire connectors from wal-mart) seriously guys, no. someone has to tell them no. they'll just mess it up anyways. car audio places are bad but BB and former CC were worse. stop picking your nose and learn how to use a screwdriver to screw a screw in. ebay is your friend. car places wanted over 5 g's for the joyride and i got it with all the add-on kits form ebay for 500. if it breaks, it's almost cheap enuff to buy another one. i got a 900 clarion deck off ebay for 200 too. that was years ago and surprise, still working to this day. i make sure of it so i don't deal with you crazy car audio shop people and their babbles about warranty when warranties never cover anything anyway. car audio shops are like school in summertime. never seen a nice clean reputable one in my life. blang blang.



Wow, punctuation please ?

So products now are 'dumbed down' ? I am going to assume you bought such products and they overflowed into their new owner ?

So a shop installed products that a PERSON brought them to install and now shops are bad ? Where do you think the majority of internet shoppers go ? And PLEASE tell me the reason why the race or color of the person that took his car to a shop is relevant ? If your trying to insinuate something, I assure you that crap will Not be tolerated.

So 'your friends' had some bad experiences, now instantly all shops are bad and crooks ? Stereotype much ?
Because you never met a (in your words) and knowledgeable person working at a shop, yet have you checked your grammar ? Based on that alone, I would say with certainty you are in no place to pass judgment.

Yes ! A DMM and a screwdriver will install all ! You sir have mastered the craft of a quality install ! 

I cannot even continue to go on. Trying to interpret your attempt at a logical debate is just giving me a headache.


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

hardtymz2517 said:


> i know many people that are hooked on crack (literally, up and beyond weed) working at these places.


You need to smoke either way less, or way more weed, depending on what you do currently (do the opposite).


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

You need a license to catch a fish, or drive a car... but procreation and keyboards are unlicensed...


----------



## simplyclean (Jan 23, 2009)

To throw a new curve on this thread, why is that shops that specialize in aftermarket performance & tuning parts can sell parts at much lower margins and also have to compete with the internet survive, yet your typical car audio shop can't? 

I don't think it's the internet that killed the industry, "kids" who make up the majority of the market would rather spend money modifying their cars instead of putting in audio.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

simplyclean said:


> To throw a new curve on this thread, why is that shops that specialize in aftermarket performance & tuning parts can sell parts at much lower margins and also have to compete with the internet survive, yet your typical car audio shop can't?
> 
> I don't think it's the internet that killed the industry, "kids" who make up the majority of the market would rather spend money modifying their cars instead of putting in audio.


Performance shops have their money makers too, but at the end of the day, these shops install alot of what they sell, and they make money off the labor too. Figure a typical supercharger install could be $4-5k for the blower, and $1.5k for the install. Even at a lower margin, these big $ items have money in them in both install, and just the part itself. 

It's like asking how real estate agents can work with such low margins. They're selling much higher dollar product.


----------



## Brian10962001 (Jul 11, 2009)

I don't think the industry has been "killed" at all, it's just in a phase of transition. When I was 16 the internet was a new thing in most places, and the car audio shop was there to not only sell you a product they said was "the best" but they knew the secrets of making your stereo sound good. Things have changed. I found out how to build my own killer subwoofer enclosures, compare products, find deals, via the internet. It seems to me that forums like this have just as much to do with the death of the car audio shop as the e business's do.


----------



## 1sty (Jun 24, 2009)

Rather then join the bashing on this fello perhaps some translation.


hardtymz2517 said:


> forget that first guy b****in' about the fall of audio shops on the first post. stuff ain't worth it as much as it's marked up at local shops.


Relative to DIY products, and what is available online with resellers warranties the typically shop is selling at too high of a mark to make it worth most people money to NOT take the risk of going online. For most people if they buy online once and have no problems, those store market ups become even more unrealistic.



hardtymz2517 said:


> back in the day, those were amps. white crossfires, RF (yes, they were once good), art PPI, zappy's, etc. stuff these days is dumbed down and add stupid gadgets on them to look better instead of focusing on SQ.


Older products had on board SQ features like parametric EQ's, 3-way crossovers and the like, now every amp just HAS to have a bass boost knob, as if the gain was not dangerous enough in most people's hands. Or instead of 4 volt preouts and time alignment, the head units have more boosting circuits,dancing lights, and flipping junk then anything actually useful. And who really needs anything chrome on a subwoofer? 



hardtymz2517 said:


> car shops are shady.


I have had poor experiences with local stereo shops lack of ethical practices.



hardtymz2517 said:


> i love how my old system got ganked, called local stores and sure enuff, a shop installed all my stuff into some black dudes car and never questioned it or wrote down the license plate number or never got a name.


HOw can any dealer in good conscious not even get a name for the install they are doing? Any shop I know of asks your name, address, and phone number even if you are paying cash. Becuase of this I have to assume the shop knew this was stolen equipment and they are partially liable for installing stolen goods.



hardtymz2517 said:


> F to car audio shops. i never seen a car that my friends owned not get messed up by crappy installation and crappy products that are wayyyy overpriced from shops


Most shops I deal with have substandard installations even by a DIY standard. There products are of low quality as well.




hardtymz2517 said:


> i spend all my money gettin good, internet cheap products instead of paying some dude thousands just to put it in my car. i'm not stephen hawkins dude, i have a voltmeter and a screwdriver, i'm all good puttin my stuff in.


I do my own installs and save the money so I don't require the added services on an installation shop.



hardtymz2517 said:


> i know many people that are hooked on crack (literally, up and beyond weed) working at these places. how do they even get hired? i never met a great person working at a shop or even knowledgeable and the owners always act like dicks for sum reason like they're tryin to put on a front.


I know people that do hard core illegal drugs...and they work for car audio shops. 



hardtymz2517 said:


> i mean seriously, i heard it costs 2000 just to install a clarion joyride deck in a car, i did it myself for free (sans a few wire connectors from wal-mart) seriously guys, no. someone has to tell them no. they'll just mess it up anyways. car audio places are bad but BB and former CC were worse. stop picking your nose and learn how to use a screwdriver to screw a screw in. ebay is your friend. car places wanted over 5 g's for the joyride and i got it with all the add-on kits form ebay for 500. if it breaks, it's almost cheap enuff to buy another one. i got a 900 clarion deck off ebay for 200 too. that was years ago and surprise, still working to this day. i make sure of it so i don't deal with you crazy car audio shop people and their babbles about warranty when warranties never cover anything anyway. car audio shops are like school in summertime. never seen a nice clean reputable one in my life. blang blang.


Installations cost too much to be worth the money to me and I feel that the warranty has little value as it is often voided. Most products treated right don't typically need a warranty. And if they are abused the warranty wont do anything for you anyways.
Bling, Bling



Stated like that....I somewhat agree


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

6spdcoupe said:


> Wow, punctuation please ?
> 
> So products now are 'dumbed down' ? I am going to assume you bought such products and they overflowed into their new owner ?
> 
> ...


Your dispute with his post is fair. But I think his post does bring up one interesting point. Even though he's basically only speaking from personal experience, I think it DOES highlight how hard it is to find a good shop in some areas. 

I know a thing or two about 12v, and I'm not lying when I tell you there aren't ANY shops worth a damn out where I am. Granted, it's been a few years since I've looked, so things may have changed. But I think it's a very real problem in this industry. There are a LOT of shops that are just filled with clueless people out to make a buck. Can't begrudge someone for trying to make some cash, but you can still recognize a ripoff when you see one.

The crappy service out there in the realm of car audio has left a bad taste in a lot of mouths. The industry can't blame the internet for everything. As a whole, they've made their beds. If the good shops fall by the wayside too, it's too bad. But when the consumer speaks, there's usually an underlying message.


----------



## hardtymz2517 (Jun 11, 2009)

sorry for seeming racist, i'm not. i'm just mad at that one bad guy. we used to have 4-5 shops in the area. none were great. a guy had his box built and didn't like how it sounded and wanted it for spl comps (remember those? we used to have 10+ hotspots for db drags in the area, now we have none. why aren't there any spl comps anymore?). well he did bad in the comp (and this was high end stuff. he bought it and then had a shop install it), well, here, the shop cut the box wrong and left with a big hole on the bottom, so what did they do? staple cardboard to cover it up. wow. and they want our money? no way. i've seen best buy not know how to put a kenwood deck inside a dodge neon. told the girl they couldn't put it in. i put it in for her with no problems. shops and crutchfield always have to sell everything at full retail. what gives? i go to shops to get connectors or small lengths of wire from time to time but most of the time, they don't even have basic connectors in stock. no shop i've ever seen carries any inventory. not good business practices.

capnextreme: maybe you do drugs but i sure don't. i'd rather ebay that nice sub and spend my dough there.  a lot of car audio people working in shops, i've seen do drugs. not everyone there but a few nonetheless.

simplyclean: you're right. in high school back near the millennium, everyone was about car audio. ever since fast and furious can out, they all sold their stuff for cold air intakes and stuff. maybe i'm gettin older, but i prefer SQ and no speeding tickets. i love my passat the way it is anyway.


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Just givin ya a hard time. FWIW, I agree with your sentiments.


----------



## Rico (Jul 14, 2009)

Local shops:

- crappy selections
- if you do find something, its always none in stock
- overprice installation
- something always break (my experience)
- if you have a cheap car, they treat it cheap also
- they take care of the big$$ spender first
- for a noob, they just sell you the most expensive

My bad experiences:

Al & Ed's
The Goodguys
Fry's Electronics
Best Buy

Now a days, I would buy from Crutchfield and learn how to install everything myself.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

I must live in another dimension. Either that, or jersey really is a better area for car audio than most. I can think of at least 5 good shops in the area. One of the better ones is closing down. I can also think of 5 hack shops. It bewilders me to drive by the hack shops and see cars out front. Granted, most of the cars in their lot look like they belong in a hack shop. 

I wholeheartedly agree that there are some terrible shops out there, but there are some good ones too. I really feel that it's not that hard to tell the good from the bad.

The guys who say they've been burnt by bad shops: How much did you research the shop you chose for installation? Did you ask any questions about their install techniques? Did you search for reviews online (what online should be used for)? Did you ask to see photo's or other examples of their work? 

Seriously, how much research could you have done if the shop was that bad? If they were that bad, there would be warning signs everywhere. There should be dozens of unhappy customers, Hack work in car's that are being worked on while you are in the shop, and lack of pictures or any other recognition.

The better shops i've seen proudly display photo's of their work, Trophys from car's they've done, and have customers that are willing to give references to the quality of their work. 

In a perfect world, all shops would be top notch, and all restaurants would serve amazing food. In this world, there are just as many bad as there are good. It's up to you to find the good ones, it only takes a little effort. 

Why do people check out Zagat's or some food reviews before visiting a restaurant, but they can't check out the shop they patronize before shopping there?


----------



## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> Your dispute with his post is fair. But I think his post does bring up one interesting point. Even though he's basically only speaking from personal experience, I think it DOES highlight how hard it is to find a good shop in some areas.
> 
> I know a thing or two about 12v, and I'm not lying when I tell you there aren't ANY shops worth a damn out where I am. Granted, it's been a few years since I've looked, so things may have changed. But I think it's a very real problem in this industry. There are a LOT of shops that are just filled with clueless people out to make a buck. Can't begrudge someone for trying to make some cash, but you can still recognize a ripoff when you see one.
> 
> The crappy service out there in the realm of car audio has left a bad taste in a lot of mouths. The industry can't blame the internet for everything. As a whole, they've made their beds. If the good shops fall by the wayside too, it's too bad. But when the consumer speaks, there's usually an underlying message.



I cant argue with that. If I was not so selective with the shops that I let carry the gear that I represent (my marketing firm, not retail business) then I would make a killing in commissions ! Unfortunate for them I am selective and turn down more than I bring on.

However, I must ask, how large is your range of "out where I am" ? Depending on your boundaries, I would be more than happy to have you down for a sit in on how I work and treat my clients.


----------



## hardtymz2517 (Jun 11, 2009)

about all the unhappy customers out front burning the shop for burning them, they never notice they're stuff is messed up in the first place. the guy never knew he had a piece of cardboard holding his box together. he paid for "top quality work" that he couldn't do himself, let alone take apart his own woofer/box to find out something is wrong in the first place. this is what erks me. they expect you to believe they did a good job. for people who don't know how to install and how things work, they may never know that they've been had so that is why there are not that many bad reviews for bad shops. i learned how to install my own stuff from a guy i used to work with back in the day (he did car audio on the side). he took me under his wing and taught me all i know. i hand built/designed my own car systems now and have the trophies to prove that they were decent. all building of boxes and wiring is done by me. i trust me. "out where i am" is youngstown, ohio. we have a decent number of shops in a 30 mile radius but none i ever heard rave reviews about. one shop built a dodge omni up with a wall full of 12's (6 or 8, i can't exactly remember) for an spl contest they were throwing. i had a cutlass ciera POS with 4 12's behind the rear seat (no wall) in a box i built myself and i end up beating them by a good 7 db. and that's one of the "better" shops. another shop had a ugo called "ugo deaf" with a 6 mtx 12's in a wall. that shop got mad when my friend that taught me car audio pulled up in his honda civic ('88) with 2 american bass 12's and had everyone running over to his car instead of the shop's car because it was that much louder. my faith for these shops doesn't grow too much when these things happen. but i think they learned their lesson when i noticed they carry ...and sell, more rims than anything else. i do support local businesses though. i buy plenty of food and drinks at the drive-in so they can still operate. i'm surprised they get by as is.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Autiophile said:


> Your input will be seen as having greater worth when it is more easily deciphered. It sounds petty, but it really does make a difference in how people perceive your comments.


You're a lot more charitable than I am - I assume the intention is to be contemptuous. If the writer isn't willing to make any effort to be understood the reader can't be expected to compensate for his laziness. There may be great wisdom in these posts but I'll never know since I can't get past the first few lines.


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

6spdcoupe said:


> I cant argue with that. If I was not so selective with the shops that I let carry the gear that I represent (my marketing firm, not retail business) then I would make a killing in commissions ! Unfortunate for them I am selective and turn down more than I bring on.
> 
> However, I must ask, how large is your range of "out where I am" ? Depending on your boundaries, I would be more than happy to have you down for a sit in on how I work and treat my clients.


So, when I was looking 6 or so years ago, I visited nearly a dozen shops in the immediate area. I went 0 for 12. So I settled on the cheapest and crossed my fingers. Turned out I had to redo the ENTIRE install a few months later, but at least I had tunes for the meantime. And they WERE cheap. 

Sometimes it doesn't matter how much research you do. Suck is suck. And in some areas of the country, suck will be surrounded by one (or maybe two) good shops, and they charge out the ass knowing that they don't really have much competition.

It's the only reason I roll my own these days. I hate installing. I used to like it when I was younger, but now I just find it to be a chore. But no one else can do it right, at least without me having to travel across the globe or paying more money than I'm willing to spend!

Anyway, I agree with those who say that these sorts of problems are prevalent in a lot of different areas, not just car audio. That's probably why there are so many DIYers in so many different areas.


----------



## JJDH (Mar 8, 2009)

lets solve the issue, open an online store,get out of the shop..


----------



## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

My $0.02

I paid $1,150 to a shop to install products that I had already purchased and to sound deaden the trunk, so the price was supposed to include a trunk kit of dynamat.. Mind you, the only product they were actually selling me was a trunk kit of dynamat. 

I think just from a pricing perspective, this is an awful lot of money for a $125 kit of dynamat and an install. Even if they charged $500 for the fiberglass box that leaves $500 for comp set install? I don't know wtf i was thinking. Never again.

The install consisted of a fake floor in the trunk, a small sealed fiberglass box for a 12" subwoofer, and component speakers installed in the factory location using MDF plates. 

I have since torn everything out. The wires they ran for the component set stopped at the kick area, at which point they were connected to the stock speaker wires with butt connectors - obviously they didn't feel like putting the effort to get a real speaker wire in there. (strike one) 

There was maybe 2 ft^2 of dynamat in the trunk. (strike two)

When I took the box out and removed the woofer to inspect it, I found that the inside of the box wasn't even soaked through with resin; the fleece still felt... fleecy lol! In addition, there were no terminals, simply a wire going through a hole that had absolutely no sort of seal and clearly allowed air to pass through. (strike three) 

There's no need to talk about strike FOUR, but they had the crossovers mounted inside the doors with double-sided tape... the tape had long since lost its grip and the crossovers were cosmetically damaged from all the bouncing around. In addition, the terminals had a nice coating of rust from being mounted in the bottom of a door near the drain.

Oh, and to top it all off, the baffles for the 6.5" woofers weren't even on snugly, they were screwed on loosely to the plastic baffle from the stock speakers, and I could move the baffles with a gentle push from one finger.


----------



## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> So, when I was looking 6 or so years ago, I visited nearly a dozen shops in the immediate area. I went 0 for 12. So I settled on the cheapest and crossed my fingers. Turned out I had to redo the ENTIRE install a few months later, but at least I had tunes for the meantime. And they WERE cheap.
> 
> Sometimes it doesn't matter how much research you do. Suck is suck. And in some areas of the country, suck will be surrounded by one (or maybe two) good shops, and they charge out the ass knowing that they don't really have much competition.
> 
> ...


But you didnt tell me how far you searched. Im only down here in NJ ya know ..


----------



## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

bd5034 said:


> My $0.02
> 
> I paid $1,150 to a shop to install products that I had already purchased and to sound deaden the trunk, so the price was supposed to include a trunk kit of dynamat.. Mind you, the only product they were actually selling me was a trunk kit of dynamat.
> 
> ...



Would you mind sharing which shop this was ? It is not a problem if you want to PM/email me to keep it private ..


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

6spdcoupe said:


> But you didnt tell me how far you searched. Im only down here in NJ ya know ..


You're about 6 hours away. IMO, that's too far to drive to have audio gear installed into a car.


----------



## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

cubdenno said:


> Those companies outsource there products to oversea's build houses. Sundown is a Zenon amp that is spec'd according to what Jacob wants. HAT is similar.
> 
> Like I said. Tried and known technology made with great parts. Oh yeah... great customer service.


Customer service will make or break a company


----------



## Audio Options (Aug 28, 2008)

heres a great customer story for ya, the other day a guy comes in and proceeds to tell me how stereo shops are ****in rip offs etc.. (He was in my stereo shop) and then tells me how another shop did such ****ed up work that he will never have a shop install his stuff again.. after talking to him for way to long I asked what the other shop did that was so bad, he said they put the wrong fuse in and it ****ed my stereo up... Um ok what did they put in, he stated that the amp required a 40 amp fuse, they installed a 30 amp so it ****ed everything up..... hmmmmm ok, how did it **** everything up??? He said it wasnt hittin like it should... Jump ahead a few mins and hes asking me questions about how to install his system... funny if he knows better than the shop why would he be asking me???? 

Finally he says "so which day do you let customers bring their cars in to work on"? I said 
" I thought you were going to do it yourself" and he replied "im going to but I need a table saw and tools that I dont have, so what days could I bring in my car to work on it" WTF!!!!!!!!! 

Talk **** and then ask to use my shop, free of charge ofcourse


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Audio Options said:


> Talk **** and then ask to use my shop, free of charge ofcourse


I am sure your insurance company would love you if that customer got hurt in your shop since he is not an employee.:surprised: Heck, it wouldn't even be worth it to rent him the space.


----------



## Audio Options (Aug 28, 2008)

I've only read so many pages of this thread and I really have to laugh that people think shops make sooooooo much money on product and were such rip offs that I had a idea, or maybe a challenge

COME RUN MY SHOP FOR A WEEK!!!!!!!!!!!
Heres the deal, somebody come in and have free reign of the store, keep the PROFIT that you make as your own, now I said profit not every dollar. So you come in and I will give you a list of operating costs to run the shop for a week including rent, pge phone etc... You can hire my installers for the week or you can do it yourself and I will give them a vacation, either way you will keep the profit you make!!!!!!!!!!

So here is how it would work, I will put together a total weekly cost of operations which you will pay up front and I will hold till the end of the week, so you can see exactly what its like to know what has to come out of your pocket to keep the doors open. At the end of the week we will take all the product you sold minus the cost of goods and whatever profit is left is yours... Just think if we really make all this money that everyone thinks then you will be making a ton of money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is open to any diyer who does not or has not worked in a stereo shop and or manuf

For those that want to accept the challenge email me at [email protected]!!!!

Whos up for the challenge?


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Audio Options said:


> Whos up for the challenge?


Nobody's going to do that.

Nobody said it was EASY to run a shop. And nobody said it was simple to turn a profit. In fact, people are saying the OPPOSITE. From a consumer's standpoint (the only standpoint that matters), audio shops are a bit of a dinosaur.


----------



## David_B (Jul 18, 2009)

If every dealer selling a manufacturer's product where all great stores with great installers I doubt anyone would have a problem paying the price the Manufacturer forces on the dealer network.

Unfortunately, just because a Dealer carries "High End Product A's" line it does in NO WAY guarantee you will get the same treatment from any 2 dealers.

If I had a dealership that did an awesome job and sold the manufacturer's products at his suggested prices and knew of another dealer carrying the same product but doing a terrible job, I'd be kind of unhappy his crummy store sold the same high end product I was.

But we all know the manufacturer's don't really police the dealers, other then making sure they live up to the MAP pricing. Kind of show's you how much the high end manufacturer's care about quality dealers vs making money.


----------



## lbc240 (Mar 1, 2008)

As the manager of a small B&M shop, I can see 3 major issues with the industry:

First is consumers shopping purely based on price. I'm not talking about the price of equipment, but the price of the labor. This creates demand for shops that pay their installer minimum wage and do sh*t installs. You get what you pay for when it comes to installs, pure and simple, and good quality installers demand more than $20 an hour otherwise they would rather open up their own shop or get out of the industry. 
At our shop we try to price our equipment at about 20% over dealer cost (instead of the MSRP markup of 100%) and charge enough for labor (Usually $65/hr) to make the job worth it. Component install is 2 hrs, amp install is 2 hrs, a whole system with 2 amps, speaker etc is looking at about 10 hrs labor so about $650. I think these prices are reasonable as ANY service industry charges about the same. think about the 100's of hours some people here have put into their installs and think how much a shop would have to charge to make it worth it to pay a guy $20 an hour and still make money for the shop to pay rent, electricity, etc.
As far as the equipment, I'd rather make $50 on a $500 amp than have the customer buy it online, because I have to deal with warranty issues either way (I have to check out the wiring, test the amp on the bench, etc. People ALWAYS blame the install first no matter what). This model is what shops will need to go to in the future in order to keep up with the Internet, and I don't have a problem with it. What I do have a problem is cheap brands that make **** equipment that breaks in 6 months. Nobody wants that and shops that sell that garbage just give a bad name to the industry.

The second problem, and this is a bigger one, is IPODS, yes ipods. Most people are listening to **** quality music these days and have no need for anything more than the factory setup in their car, because their music sounds like **** anyway. I read an article about a study that said the current generation of 18-25 year olds prefer the tinny sound of earbuds to the rich, full sound of a nice system. This is a major problem for the industry.

The third problem is the "old school" crowd of shop owners. Too jaded to care and all they care about is the money because they are too burnt out to have fun anymore. They are unable to create excitement in the younger crowd and all they do is whine about how the new equipment isn't as good. SO WHAT!! Make the best out of what's out there and don't complain that things aren't as good anymore just because you're deaf and can't get he same sound as when you were 18 and still had good ears! 

Personally i would LOVE it if 90% of Car audio shops around here (socal) went out of business, because the ones left standing would be the good ones that have good customer service and good installers. People only go down the cheapest price route once before they realize that it's actually a waste of money because they'll just have to keep upgrading anyway.


Disclaimer - 90% of people on this forum make for bad customers, because you know what you're doing. However, 90% of the general population have no clue how to actually install a system. These are my customers and they are willing to pay me or my installers $65 an hour for our experience so they don't have to spend HOURS or DAYS online figuring this stuff out. They have better stuff to do... like getting paid for working, or raising a family. (seriously, some people on here have 3000+ posts, think about all the time involved in that).


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

David_B said:


> But we all know the manufacturer's don't really police the dealers, other then making sure they live up to the MAP pricing. Kind of show's you how much the high end manufacturer's care about quality dealers vs making money.


They really don't do that either. The only way a manufacturer gets onto a dealer about MAP violations is if/when other dealers complain. 

Look, on the one hand, I agree. Principles seem to come in a distant second to making money. MBA types want to see growth, whether the category is going to see healthy growth or not. 

There is a significant contraction going on in the industry. Most of the managers have never dealt with a contraction and don't know how to do so. 

But limiting your dealer base to that kind of size pretty much keeps you from being able to turn a MOQ (minimum order) from Taiwan, China, or Korea, in a reasonable amount of time. Shoving manufactuing overseas lowered per-unit costs - but ONLY if you hit the MOQs, which are RISING. This will hurt many, many companies.

So by running to Asia, we as an industry may have screwed ourselves royally.


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

lbc240 said:


> The second problem, and this is a bigger one, is IPODS,
> 
> The third problem is the "old school" crowd of shop owners.
> 
> Disclaimer - 90% of people on this forum make for bad customers, because you know what you're doing.


So the problems are the biggest audio technology to take off in 40 years, the shop owners who made the industry, and bad customers who know what they are doing? 

I hope that just came out wrong. 

Customers who don't care about SQ is nothing new...

But if you can only earn the business of people who are ignorant, that almost sounds like they can see through BS...


----------



## KARAFLA (Jul 18, 2009)

if you do buy on ebay... you do so at your own peril. i have bought many items on ebay only to discover that the amplifier that i bought that "worked back then but is sold untested" was blown to hell and back, someone disassembled it to fix it and put it back together with it missing 19 screws internally.......

that is a true story.

i continue to buy on ebay because i am an electronic technician and can repair myself but.... unless you have the knowledge, or access to someone that does, ebay is dangerous. buy from a registered dealer only, pay the extra, get the backup. otherwise you may find you end up spending just as much money in the end as you would have if you went to the dealer in the first place, not to mention the time you may waste.

as for install... there are a lot of crooks out there and thats a hard one to combat, i guess insist that you will inspect everything before you pay, and that youre not paying till its finished. do this at the time of purchase when the salesman is trying to convince you that they know all and are your saviour ( but work for minimum wage because they are a good samaritan). if they have a problem with it, they have something to hide, and if they are offering you a good deal on the hardware, buy it and get someone else to fit it. remember, its your car and your money. shops generally couldnt care less for you car or for you once the money changes hands either.

its sad but i guess its the way it is.


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

David_B said:


> If every dealer selling a manufacturer's product where all great stores with great installers I doubt anyone would have a problem paying the price the Manufacturer forces on the dealer network.


I missed this before... 

How does a manufacturer "force" a price?


----------



## lbc240 (Mar 1, 2008)

VP Electricity said:


> So the problems are the biggest audio technology to take off in 40 years,


Yes because they sound like **** compared to cds so pople only way a radio that can hookup to them instead of nice speakers too. Don't get me wrong, I have an ipod too, and i sell plenty of ipod hookups, but they hurt the industry more than they help it. I guess it's really more of the record companies fault more then anything for letting people think that mp3s are "CD Quality", because lossless on a usb hookup and an outboard 24 bit d/a isn't bad.



VP Electricity said:


> the shop owners who made the industry,


Yes because they are unable to get the next generation exited about the industry at all. Most are still in it only for the money.




VP Electricity said:


> and bad customers who know what they are doing?


Well I didn't say that this was a problem, but yes, because people who really know what they are doing don't need my services. For these people even a good job is not good enough because they wat a high-end custom install at a low-end price. I understand this. I am the same way. I actaully enjoy talking to these people when they come in beacause it's a nice break from the other 95% of poeple who don't know or care about active vs passive, etc. This is not a problem because this is less than 5% of the population.




VP Electricity said:


> But if you can only earn the business of people who are ignorant, that almost sounds like they can see through BS...


I guess you could call them ignorant, but I think it's more that they don't care what kind of technical install details that go into the install, they just want it to sound good and work. Most of my customers come into the shop from good word of mouth, as we do ZERO advertising, so I must be doing something right or i would be out of business now.


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

lbc240 said:


> Yes because they sound like **** compared to cds so pople only way a radio that can hookup to them instead of nice speakers too.
> 
> 
> ... so I must be doing something right or i would be out of business now.


iPods do NOT sound like ****. Poorly downloaded tracks sound like ****. 

(Even iPod hardware SQ detractors have to admit, iPods sound better than cassette decks, and we sold lots of those back in the day).

And the poorly made tracks are downloaded and not noticed by PEOPLE. It's PEOPLE who don't care. 



As far as the great rationalization at the end... You apparently have a lot of competitors who you don't think are doing things right, and who have not gone out of business...I hope you are doing something right. But I agree with Paul Krugman in today's NYT - Goldman Sachs is good at making money, but bad for America - and whether or not you make money does not "prove" the ultimate sustainability of our activities.


----------



## hardtymz2517 (Jun 11, 2009)

Sorry for not capitalizing but this forum seems to be weird about it. I'm used to my passat forum....umm, and every other forum i've ever been on and everyone there rolls no capitols. I'll try harder for you guys but for the meantime, this is for all you Haterz....









Besides, DIY people are everywhere from all forms of life and such and we shouldn't vote people off the island just cause they don't feel like putting 100% in all their sentences. I at least use punctuation. I got my bachelors so far, I want to end English lessons for a while. I'm here for DIY, not Anglish. hehe.


----------



## lbc240 (Mar 1, 2008)

VP Electricity said:


> iPods do NOT sound like ****. Poorly downloaded tracks sound like ****.
> 
> (Even iPod hardware SQ detractors have to admit, iPods sound better than cassette decks, and we sold lots of those back in the day).
> 
> And the poorly made tracks are downloaded and not noticed by PEOPLE. It's PEOPLE who don't care. .


Very true, but I've had to educate *many* customers who DO care but honestly didn't know that songs from itunes aren't cd quality. Nobody had ever told them otherwise.




VP Electricity said:


> As far as the great rationalization at the end... You apparently have a lot of competitors who you don't think are doing things right, and who have not gone out of business....


Actaully a few have gone out of business and a few more are on the edge right now. Basicly it's up to the consumer to stop supporting the cheap shops that don't know what they are doing, and my hope is that this recession will weed out the bad ones from the industry.


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

hardtymz2517 said:


> Besides, DIY people are everywhere from all forms of life and such and we shouldn't vote people off the island just cause they don't feel like putting 100% in all their sentences.
> 
> I at least use punctuation. I got my bachelors so far, I want to end English lessons for a while. I'm here for DIY, not Anglish. hehe.


You're here to communicate... gotta make it over the bar...

Don't have to be perfect, but TRYING would be good.


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

lbc240 said:


> Very true, but I've had to educate *many* customers who DO care but honestly didn't know that songs from itunes aren't cd quality. Nobody had ever told them otherwise.


And that's the iPod's fault? Ever since the Magna Carta, ignorance has not been an acceptable excuse. Ever since Google, it's a pathetic one. 



lbc240 said:


> Basicly it's up to the consumer to stop supporting the cheap shops that don't know what they are doing, and my hope is that this recession will weed out the bad ones from the industry.


I think you and I have a different belief system when it comes to economics. 

All I know is you are in business and they are in business. How can a consumer tell you apart from that perspective?


----------



## lbc240 (Mar 1, 2008)

VP Electricity said:


> Ever since Google, it's a pathetic one.


Ignorance is a bad excuse, but unfortunately it's also reality



VP Electricity said:


> I think you and I have a different belief system when it comes to economics.
> 
> All I know is you are in business and they are in business. How can a consumer tell you apart from that perspective?


Well therein lies the problem, they don't know until after the job is done. One time I actually had a grown man come to me in tears after another shop hacked up his new truck because they did a $6000 job for $500 less than me. Their idea of a 3 way component was adding a 4" coaxial to a component set . He ended up spending another $2500 with me to fix everything and he's been a customer ever since, and has sent all his friends to us. Like I said before, It only takes being burned once for most people to learn that a cheaper price is not always a better deal.

I think we're getting a bit off the original topic though. What I was trying to get at originally is that there are many other systemic problems in the industry besides internet sellers. As far as I'm concerned, the internet doesn't bother me as long as the manufacturers are making enough money to keep up R&D and put out some good equipment. If the DIY crowd wants to buy online, no problem, as the other 90% of the people out there still have a need for a B&M to help them figure out what they need to suit their wants, and to install their stuff.


----------



## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> You're about 6 hours away. IMO, that's too far to drive to have audio gear installed into a car.


I agree ! Just wanted to make sure I wasnt on your radar as one of the unknowledgeable shops !


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

lbc240 said:


> As the manager of a small B&M shop, I can see 3 major issues with the industry:
> 
> First is consumers shopping purely based on price. I'm not talking about the price of equipment, but the price of the labor. This creates demand for shops that pay their installer minimum wage and do sh*t installs. You get what you pay for when it comes to installs, pure and simple, and good quality installers demand more than $20 an hour otherwise they would rather open up their own shop or get out of the industry.
> At our shop we try to price our equipment at about 20% over dealer cost (instead of the MSRP markup of 100%) and charge enough for labor (Usually $65/hr) to make the job worth it. Component install is 2 hrs, amp install is 2 hrs, a whole system with 2 amps, speaker etc is looking at about 10 hrs labor so about $650. I think these prices are reasonable as ANY service industry charges about the same. think about the 100's of hours some people here have put into their installs and think how much a shop would have to charge to make it worth it to pay a guy $20 an hour and still make money for the shop to pay rent, electricity, etc.
> ...


This guy clearly gets it.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

i bought an Arc Mini 125.2 at my local shop today. 

Lists ~$329, he gave it to me for $300.


----------



## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

lbc240 said:


> As the manager of a small B&M shop, I can see 3 major issues with the industry:
> 
> First is consumers shopping purely based on price. I'm not talking about the price of equipment, but the price of the labor. This creates demand for shops that pay their installer minimum wage and do sh*t installs. You get what you pay for when it comes to installs, pure and simple, and good quality installers demand more than $20 an hour otherwise they would rather open up their own shop or get out of the industry.
> At our shop we try to price our equipment at about 20% over dealer cost (instead of the MSRP markup of 100%) and charge enough for labor (Usually $65/hr) to make the job worth it. Component install is 2 hrs, amp install is 2 hrs, a whole system with 2 amps, speaker etc is looking at about 10 hrs labor so about $650. I think these prices are reasonable as ANY service industry charges about the same. think about the 100's of hours some people here have put into their installs and think how much a shop would have to charge to make it worth it to pay a guy $20 an hour and still make money for the shop to pay rent, electricity, etc.
> ...



The last statement is the only part I cannot fully agree with. Here is my stats to be exact:

* Total Posts

* Total Posts: 4,401
* Posts Per Day: 3.60
* Find all posts by 6spdcoupe
* Find all threads started by 6spdcoupe*

3.6 per day require VERY little time. If judging by post count, take into consideration of length of time it is spread over. I do in fact run two full time full time businesses and two 3yr olds !


----------



## lbc240 (Mar 1, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> 3.6 per day require VERY little time. If judging by post count, take into consideration of length of time it is spread over. I do in fact run two full time full time businesses and two 3yr olds !


Ok lets say each post takes 5 min of your time (you have to read the thread before you post so I think 5 min is reasonable). That means that over the past few years you have spent at least 350 hours on the forum. I guess 20 min per day isn't too much at once, but it does add up and many people are too lazy and/or don't care enough to do it. 

Personally I spend way more time lurking than I do posting and I admire your contibution to the knowlege base of this site. I'm just saying that your average consumer doesn't care enough to put that much effort into something that if done right, is transparent to them (meaning that they don't see anything, they just turn it up and it sounds good). Don't underestimate how lazy the general population is.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

lbc240 said:


> The second problem, and this is a bigger one, is IPODS, yes ipods. Most people are listening to **** quality music these days and have no need for anything more than the factory setup in their car, because their music sounds like **** anyway. I read an article about a study that said the current generation of 18-25 year olds prefer the tinny sound of earbuds to the rich, full sound of a nice system. This is a major problem for the industry.


This iPod/data compression arguement is sloppy. It's the playback system that sucks--tiny speakers, tiny ear buds, poorly designed systems, etc. It's important and helpful to try to understand what people mean, rather than just hearing what they say. 

I've read countless articles about the resurgence of vinyl, especially among young people who have never heard records before. Old-school 2-channelers read that crap and they say stupid stuff like, "The digital format is strident, processed and unnatural. See...I've always known that analog is better...blah blah blah." I read those articles and think..."hmmm...maybe it's because none of these kids own records, but their dads and grand parents do and guess what they're hooked up to? Speakers. Big speakers with woofers. Big speakers driven by amplifiers that everyone can hear. Hmmm...maybe it's not the vinyl that sounds better, but the fact that listening to a record under those conditions is a dramatically different experience than pulling one of the ear buds out of your ear and handing it to your buddy or plugging your iPod into a docking speaker that uses 1" midranges and a 4" woofer driven by a whopping 4 watts."

It's the playback system, stupid!


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Andy is half right. I say that because before iPods, I saw retail customers looking for the distortion they heard when they turned up boomboxes. 

But I think he is mischaracterizing the analog resurgence. Twentysomethings on their own who go out and buy a home hi-fi setup with a turntable don't fit that analogy either. 

I think that they are finding out just how good analog stereo recording for LPs was. They are surprised. 

Again, the diff between a well-recorded CD on a good playback system, and a well-recorded LP on a good playback system, is nothing - compared to the difference between a poorly-compressed bootleg MP3 and either of the two above. 

Not all "old-school 2-channelers" are cranks.


----------



## briansz (Feb 5, 2008)

I think there is a bit of novelty in the 'ceremony' of listening to vinyl on a decent 2-channel system as well. The experience of listening to well-reproduced music isn't merely aural. If you have a well decorated space with speakers and components that have won a design award, it becomes part of the experience too.

Our lives are so frantic, there is a little magic in being sequestered for forty minutes listening to wonderfully reproduced art in a room lit by the glow of tube electronics (or LEDs, if that's your preference).

There's also the tactile factor, you have to place the media on the platter, cue the tonearm, etc. And you can actually see the cover art and liner notes when you buy a LP. I think it all adds up to make listening to recorded music much more of an artistic experience than slapping on a pair of headphones and hitting the treadmill. 

As has been pointed out, to a lot of younger people, that experience is unfamiliar. It's not so different from my mom's generation who grew up listening to AM radio. Reproduction of music with a full frequency spectrum is not something she enjoys, and she is perfectly happy to listen to a transistor AM radio even now. The stereo in her car is usually faded all the way to the back speakers and she's been that way since I was a kid. Sadly, most of the iPod generation is going to fall into the same category.

What you're really fighting now is not just habit though, it is an extremely limited attention span and a constant need for stimulus in a large portion of younger people. If you can fall into an open manhole while walking home from school and texting, I doubt you will be listening to music as a primary activity anytime soon.


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

briansz said:


> If you can fall into an open manhole while walking home from school and texting, I doubt you will be listening to music as a primary activity anytime soon.


Sad story in NYT today about texting while driving...


----------



## lbc240 (Mar 1, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> This iPod/data compression argument is sloppy.
> ......
> It's the playback system, stupid!


 Yes, that argument was a bit sloppy. What I was referring to mostly was the iPod/data compression mentality of the latest generation of listeners and producers. Most new music is mixed in such a way that it's so dynamically compressed that it doesn't even sound that good on CD. This only helps to encourage mp3s as the difference between mp3 and a newly mixed CD is smaller than it would be on an older CD. 

*begin rant*

I think this is part of the reason of the resurgence of vinyl in the market. Those vinyl albums being produced now may actually sound better than CD because they are being mixed for "that analog sound", and it isn't as dynamically compressed as a CD. For instance, with the latest metallica album, you can actually find a better sounding, less compressed version of the song on guitar hero vs the retail CD.

Record companies are facing a similar problem to B&M stereo shops in that people would rather go online and pay less for the product. The record companies are shooting themselves in the foot by not releasing good, high quality recordings anymore. They are slowly taking away the incentive for a consumer to go to a store and pay more money for something that's better quality. Many B&M stereo shops are doing such a poor job at customer service and quality of installs, that many more people are trying to do it them selves or just demanding it installed from the factory. I've had many customers come in for window tint and tell me that they didn't want to do anything else to the car because they "didn't want to mess the car up." It's gotten to the point where people just assume that stereo shop will hack up their car...

*end rant*


----------



## hardtymz2517 (Jun 11, 2009)

I like listening to my SACD and DVD-Audio albums. Sucks d*** they never caught on. But then again, who would want to hear every flaw and nuance in Lil' Wayne's new joint....
Think about it.

Records are ok, but i don't own a system that makes them truly shine. They sound all midrange and no highs.
I love my ipods for the portability and Shure headphones do make it sound pretty sweet. I agree though it lacks truly awesomeness for sound quality.

BTW, the shops in my area seem to sell the cheapest of the cheap. (A comment for a previous poster: our audio shops would look at you as if you're retarded if you asked "Arc" anything.) The sad part is they sell Lanzar/Pyramid the same price as Arc. I say buy online. I'm not paying someone to do a 50/50 job on my car, 50 percent may get it right, or 50 percent he messes everything up and spills his beer in my car and steals my change out of the cupholder. If i gambled like that, the casinos would then get my money instead.

I liked lbc250's rant. Thumbs Up! Blang.


----------



## Z3Sooner (Aug 2, 2008)

In my mind the debate isn't really CDs vs. LPs anymore. I was very lucky to grow up on LPs played on equipment like Pioneer Specs, McIntosh and Linn. My father tried many different speakers including Yamaha YS-1000 and Advent Powered. Both pairs are now mine, in excellent condition, and I hope their in good enough condition to hand down to my sons.

In my opinion, CDs on similar quality equipment sound just good, if not better. 128k is another story. It has more to do with highly compressed music converted by average DACs played through tiny little ear buds. Even an Ipod played into a quality system sounds average.

On the bright side I have successfully converted 3 of my nephews and my boys will never need to be converted. 

As to the original question, the technology is changing and audio shops are going to have to change with it. If they don't, they will die.

The biggest problem the audio shops face right now is PERCEPTION. Too many people do not perceive a value in going to an audio shop. The causes of that have been beaten to death here, but that's the REAL problem. The ones that can change that perception will survive. The rest won't.


----------



## Torquem (Jun 27, 2009)

I have to drive 2 hours to "buy local" lol. That's why I buy online.


----------



## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

I think alot of people have touched on the sound quality difference between ipod and cd or vinyl. 

What most people have entirely neglected is the single most important reason people choose ipods today: the driving factor is convenience. Nobody wants to drag around 50 cds or an old-style cd walkman. People want their music in a tiny little portable form, and they want easy access to their entire music collection at all times.

For the population at large, sound quality is the absolute LAST consideration when listening to music. We are simply debating sound quality because that's what's important to US PERSONALLY. 

Another large part of it is that people like to see a song they heard on the radio, impulse-buy it on itunes, then listen to it once or twice and forget about it. The sort of pop music that's been produced lately doesn't exactly have meaningful lyrics or outstanding instrumentals - it's not even worth listening to many of these songs more than a handful of times.

It doesn't take multiple listens to extract meaning from lyrics about how a stripper takes all your money, then you drive home drunk in your fancy car.


----------

