# adding tweeters to raise image/stage height



## SQ'in (Oct 28, 2009)

Hey Guys,

Here’s my dilemma, I have the Focal polyglass 165V3E component kit setup as my front end setup.

6.5” in the factory door position (triple sound damped and sealed door)
4” & 1” in fiberglass enclosed kick panels (laser aimed to dome light)

Now during my testing phase I made sure everything was set to zero and flat and only played with X/O points and T/A. I got the image centered and sounding great but found the singer sitting on my Head unit. I then proceeded to add a second set of focal tweeters, off axis to the A-pillars (double side taped) to raise the sound stage and that seemed to do the trick.

My question is will it cause more of a problem adding a second set of tweeters to the system as a whole or should I use EQ to bring the sound stage up instead. As these two tweeters are taking up 2 channels on my Audison 4 channel amp where I can use them to double bridge my 3-way instead. I don’t want to waste EQ power to raise stage height when it could be used to fix peaks and valleys in the FR.

Thanks for all the great info on the site guys it’s really helping out to making a better SQ car. I’m going on 12 hours of reading on DIYMA today, took the day of work, lol

Thanks guys
Frank


----------



## bobduch (Jul 22, 2005)

Welcome Frank. Very well put question. Tell us what vehicle you have. Perhaps someone here with that same vehicle can help.
My tweets are in the kicks (van, and there was no way to get stage high enough otherwise). But IIRC from some old (now unavailable) ECA threads you might try aiming the tweeters a little more towards the HU and/or the roof above the HU. Again, IIRC that helped in some vehicles but not in others.
Good luck and give it some time and others will chime in.


----------



## SQ'in (Oct 28, 2009)

Thanks bobduch 

I have a 2004 cavailer Z24


----------



## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

Another option may be to move your existing tweeters up, rather than adding a second set. Additional tweeters can be added successfully, but it's difficult to get them to work right without cluttering the imaging from the first set. I prefer one set of tweeters.


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

pics on the kick panels. and XO points etc....


----------



## Luke352 (Jul 24, 2006)

How high is your tweeter crossed? You will get a more coherent result moving your current tweeters to the A pillars if they are crossed high enough as above about 4k tweeters are localizable by volume rather then time like you midrange. A second set of tweeters may fix your height but the other issues that come with this aren;t worth it.


----------



## SQ'in (Oct 28, 2009)

At the moment I don't have pics of my kicks because they are being sent off to the body shop at a local dealership to be painted and I just finished making them the other day. Right now nothing is in the car, it was all taken out because I’m doing a total re-design of the system. As for X/O points, the tweeters in the kick panel were connected to the focal 3-way passive crossover and the A-pillar ones I can't remember because I did the testing a few months ago but the X/O was high, around 8k or 10k. Basically making sure it didn't interfere with the main source point only enough to make it seem like the sound stage was up high.

I did realize I can make the main tweeter placed in my a-pillar but from everything I have learned and read is that the tweeter should always be placed beside the mid so that the sound all blends in as one and of course the Kick panel area is great for PLD.

The focal tweeter is very harsh and ear fatiguing, once placed in the kick with the mid the system really came alive and sounded very good for once. I had the tweeter in the door panel and in the sail panel and this by far is the best location I think.

I’m wondering if anyone else has this similar setup and what do they have the imaging tweeter X/O at?


I'm going to try and dig up some old pictures I took when I was in the test phase and post them.


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Reverse the polarity of your mids.

Eric


----------



## SQ'in (Oct 28, 2009)

I'll give that a try see what happens


----------



## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

another cavalier owner  I also have an 04 ls sport 

I dont really have any tips for you though. I still havent gotten all of my stuff in yet. However, within the next couple weeks I am having some a pillars built for my car. From talking to other cavalier owners the a pillar seems to be a pretty solid spot for the car.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

is 39.99 + shipping cheap enough to find out ?

Orion XTR1002 1" 120W XTR Series Tweeter Kit w/CROSSOVR - eBay (item 170371507003 end time Oct-29-09 21:11:35 PDT)


----------



## Luke352 (Jul 24, 2006)

SQ'in said:


> I did realize I can make the main tweeter placed in my a-pillar but from everything I have learned and read is that the tweeter should always be placed beside the mid so that the sound all blends in as one and of course the Kick panel area is great for PLD.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> This is true if your using a 2 way system or 3 way system with a low xover point as your tweeter will be playing freq's that are localizable, as it is with that high xover point, PLD or time alignment will have no real effect on the tweeter, level adjustment will though.


----------



## SQ'in (Oct 28, 2009)

Hey Brian_smith06,

I saw when looking up cavalier installs your thread came up about your driver in the door hitting the panel. I have experience this two, it’s not easy trying to fit a 6.5” into what once held a 4x6 but instead of placing a screw on the baffle to use as a stopper what you can also do is place a few washers under the factory door screws to give you that extra room you need. If you need pics I can provide them for you.

Did I just jack my own thread, lol

Hey a$$hole, ha-ha amazing name…. I already have the second set of tweeters and have been playing around with position so now it’s just a matter if I need to install them or not. No need to buy anything.

Hey Luke352,

The main tweeter in the kick panel is going to play off the 3-way passive provided by focal and I’m guessing they designed the passive so the speakers blend in together. What I might try is disconnecting it and just paying with the A-pillar one and see what I get. I guess if it sounds better then leave it up there. From all my testing so far it sounded the best in the kick panel, I guess I have some more work to do.

Thanks guys for all the help so far…
Frank


----------



## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

You might want to read through this thread if you haven't already, there are some good ideas in there that might apply to your install: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio-sq-forum/65061-improve-your-soundstage-2-a.html 

If you put your tweeters in a little cup like that with some double-sided tape or something, it's pretty easy to move them around the car and see where they sound best.


----------



## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

There are just too many variables for anyone to be able to say "this will work" or "that won't work". You will just have to experiment and discover for yourself what works. 

Most have found that a second set of tweets work best crossed over high. The idea is to try and add some high end sparkle to raise stage height, but not overlap too much with what the main tweets are doing. There are a lot of competitors that do it that way. 8 or 10K on the crossover point would be good to try. If you don't have a way of adjusting the volume independently on the extra tweets, look for some adjustable l-pads from parts express. Usually with tweets in the a-pillars, you need to be able to adjust L and R independently of each other.


----------



## SQ'in (Oct 28, 2009)

Yes I did read through that thread and it was amazing I’m def going to try that out.

I think you hit it bang on rockinridgeline, I’m going to make sure they don't interfere with the overall sound but just add that extra sparkle to raise the stage. They are going to be on independent channels and I will have full control of T/A, Level control and X/O. I'm going to first try them out facing each other across the windshield then maybe angle them in towards the windshield (maybe point to the center) see what different that brings to the car.


Frank


----------



## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

The problem with running two sets of tweeters is that you are feeding the same material to both sets of tweeters but due to the distances involved, the sound will not arrive at the same time. For example, you will have 2 right signals arriving at different times. This can cause phasing issues and comb filtering. So I would really avoid using 2 tweeters.

I suggest you move the tweeter up to the A-pillars. See my fabrication thread on fabricating inexpensive tweeter pods that look decent. For that matter, you might try both your mids and tweeters up top on your A-pillars.


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Eric Stevens said:


> Reverse the polarity of your mids.
> 
> Eric


thats too simple and makes too much sense. You should recommend he buy more equipment he doesnt need, use more time alignment, use more dampening or a bunch of other things which really wont resolve the problem either


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> thats too simple and makes too much sense. You should recommend he buy more equipment he doesnt need, use more time alignment, use more dampening or a bunch of other things which really wont resolve the problem either


Why does it make too much sense? Someone please explain to me how this will have any effect on stage height, unless it simply fills in a hole between the mid and tweeter.


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Why does it make too much sense? Someone please explain to me how this will have any effect on stage height, unless it simply fills in a hole between the mid and tweeter.


Could be a phase problem in midrange, which changing phase of one mid, could bring it into phase with the system.
Typically its the passenger side mid w Kick panels

adding "ambient" tweeters is typically a band-aid solution for less than optimal positioning of the midrange driver.


----------



## hotcress (May 24, 2009)

I remember using a matching tweeter on a simple cap a few years ago as a sail mounted super tweeter to rise my stage. x-over point was like 6k or something like that. Worked for me.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> Could be a phase problem in midrange, which changing phase of one mid, could bring it into phase with the system.
> Typically its the passenger side mid w Kick panels
> 
> adding "ambient" tweeters is typically a band-aid solution for less than optimal positioning of the midrange driver.


Eric didn't say to reverse ONE. Also, reversing ONE is a bad deal, unless you're reversing the polarity of a speaker crossed over so that it only reproduces the band of frequencies that are a problem. This NEVER works with 2-way systems. It'll place the vocals in the center, but it screws up the midbass and moves the first null to a higher frequency. I have NEVER heard a car where this was done that sounded good or imaged properly.


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Eric didn't say to reverse ONE. Also, reversing ONE is a bad deal, unless you're reversing the polarity of a speaker crossed over so that it only reproduces the band of frequencies that are a problem. This NEVER works with 2-way systems. It'll place the vocals in the center, but it screws up the midbass and moves the first null to a higher frequency. I have NEVER heard a car where this was done that sounded good or imaged properly.


I agree completely. but the OP has a 3way.
and knowing Eric, I knew what he meant by saying Mid(s)--he was just imply to try reversing one or the other

Ive heard several 2way that imaged properly from one seat, but had weak midbass response, especially in the 125-250 region.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

SQ'in said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> Here’s my dilemma, I have the Focal polyglass 165V3E component kit setup as my front end setup.
> 
> ...





Eric Stevens said:


> Reverse the polarity of *your mids.*
> 
> Eric





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Eric didn't say to reverse ONE. Also, reversing ONE is a bad deal, unless you're reversing the polarity of a speaker crossed over so that it only reproduces the band of frequencies that are a problem. *This NEVER works with 2-way systems*. It'll place the vocals in the center, but it screws up the midbass and *moves the first null to a higher frequency*




Might work in this scenario as the mid is not being used for bass.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

I doubt that the mid is playing 150Hz.


----------



## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

A pic of your kicks could help. 
Are the tws above or below the mids? (tws below stages higher).

Moving the tws to the pillars is not good for SQ. A second pair neither.

Recheck all the conections to be sure all speakers are in correct polarity.
Give a try to swapping the polarity of BOTH tweeters. One of the two options stages higher. Tonallity does not changes to much.

Adding some EQ from 2 to 4k usuallly help to raise the stage.


----------



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

I would put the 6.5" drivers in the kick panels, and the 4" and 1" drivers in the smallest enclosure possible, and as high as possible.

Because your woofers are currently located in the doors the depth of stage will be poor, and the soundstage will be dominated by the drivers side woofer.

Doors are a terrible place to mount a woofer; even the rear deck is better.

Also, you don't want to use four tweeters. The only way that works is if they're in an array with very tight center-to-center spacing, like Dynaudio uses for their home speakers.


----------



## SQ'in (Oct 28, 2009)

Thanks guys for all the advice,

From the answers I’m receiving it looks like for an SQ point of view a second set of tweeters is not in my best interest. I will be building my own RTA soon and will see if there are any problems in the car and maybe that will solve the issue. Also I will take your advice Hernan and play with the polarity on the tweeters that could solve my problem. As for putting my 6.5” drivers in the Kick Panels Patrick I have already done that and they didn’t sound good at all. The enclosure was way too small and I tried my hardest to make it as large as possible. I had the Focal rep take a listen to my car and he could even tell which enclosure was slightly bigger than the other. Once I placed them into the sealed doors they came alive and now sound great. Below are shots of my almost ready kicks.
Thanks guys
Frank


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Id rebuild the kicks. Have the Mid fire more off axis and upward between a 30 and 45 degree angle. Usually 30 degrees works well. Tweeter, directly below the mid and aim it more on axis with opposite listener. or toward your seat belt holder on opposite side.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Small enclosures for midranges= bad sonics.


----------



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

SQ'in said:


> As for putting my 6.5” drivers in the Kick Panels Patrick I have already done that and they didn’t sound good at all. The enclosure was way too small and I tried my hardest to make it as large as possible.


Before I was running horns in my '01 Accord I had kick panels with Seas woofers. The trick I used to maximize the enclosure volume was that I built a transmission line, with the line behind the dash. It's a neat way to get a lot of volume without taking up much space on the floor, since there's quite a bit of room behind the dash.

But I agree with you, getting enough space for a seven inch woofer is tricky without resorting to putting it in the door. The Seas woofers that I used were about 5".

Over the next few months I intend to build a tapped horn with an array of three inch woofers, and I'm hoping I can get as much output as a 12" woofer in an enclosure that's the size of a shoebox.


----------



## SQ'in (Oct 28, 2009)

Ya I even cut out the backing of the kick panel to let the wofer breath into the carpet, it did help but not enough.


----------



## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

SQ'in said:


> Thanks guys for all the advice,
> 
> From the answers I’m receiving it looks like for an SQ point of view a second set of tweeters is not in my best interest. I will be building my own RTA soon and will see if there are any problems in the car and maybe that will solve the issue. Also I will take your advice Hernan and play with the polarity on the tweeters that could solve my problem. As for putting my 6.5” drivers in the Kick Panels Patrick I have already done that and they didn’t sound good at all. The enclosure was way too small and I tried my hardest to make it as large as possible. I had the Focal rep take a listen to my car and he could even tell which enclosure was slightly bigger than the other. Once I placed them into the sealed doors they came alive and now sound great. Below are shots of my almost ready kicks.
> Thanks guys
> Frank


Nice kickpanels . I see no big problem there.

If you could move them, try them closer to the midbass, not over de death pedal, more ahead of it.
This will let the sound to flow up thru de dash contour. As they are now, a lot of the ouptput from the mid is trapped between the floor and the underdash.

Short PLDs are nice for midbasses, not so critical for high frecuencies.

The farthest you are from the mid/tw, the narrower the stage will be. Think in the form of the triangle ...

In some cars, all the way forward is ok (shallow dashboard and/or low seats). No (big) interferences from the dashboard. In other cases, you have to find a place where the benefits outweights the ploblems from underdash reflections.


----------



## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

SQ'in said:


> Hey Brian_smith06,
> 
> I saw when looking up cavalier installs your thread came up about your driver in the door hitting the panel. I have experience this two, it’s not easy trying to fit a 6.5” into what once held a 4x6 but instead of placing a screw on the baffle to use as a stopper what you can also do is place a few washers under the factory door screws to give you that extra room you need. If you need pics I can provide them for you.
> 
> ...


Hey thanks for the tip. I am going to try that out in a few weeks when i completely redo my setup


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I would put the 6.5" drivers in the kick panels, and the 4" and 1" drivers in the smallest enclosure possible, and as high as possible.
> 
> Because your woofers are currently located in the doors the depth of stage will be poor, and the soundstage will be dominated by the drivers side woofer.
> 
> Doors are a terrible place to mount a woofer; even the rear deck is better.


I don't think this is a hard and fast rule. I have used midbass in the doors for years and am always able to get good depth of stage--and even distance to the stage. No near side bias, either.


----------



## ben_lesmana (Jul 13, 2006)

Andy,

Is that with processing? midbass only or midrange as well?

I found that the key to door mounted midbasses are -solid doors-, good dampening of the door and the door panels as well. It helps to put the midbass solid in front, but midrange frequency are another matter, it always pull to the side closer to you. So midrange is best at kicks.

Ben


----------



## SQ'in (Oct 28, 2009)

I know that once I moved my 6.5" drivers from the kicks to the bottom doors my midbass inproved. Of course it depends on the amount of space you have in the kicks and it helped to sound dampen the door skin and the inner and outer door panel.


----------



## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

ben_lesmana said:


> Andy,
> 
> Is that with processing? midbass only or midrange as well?
> 
> ...


Nice to see fellow Indonesian here


----------



## ben_lesmana (Jul 13, 2006)

Hello Mass :laugh:

Same here


----------



## johnmasters (Mar 30, 2009)

Your kicks look very good. It appears as though you have a good spot for kicks as those dont look intrusive at all.

Also, I am currently using a CDT upstage kit and I like it. I did have my main tweeters down next to the mids but have made mirror cover tweeter pods and will listen without the upstage kit for the next week or two.


----------



## loco2355 (Sep 28, 2009)

I also have the CDT upstage kit and I like it. It does what it claims very well.


----------



## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

unplug your tweeter and listen to your system. Where is the image height without the tweeter playing?


----------



## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^also, do the same thing with the midrange. 

Play each set of speakers by themselves and see where the height is.


----------



## SQ'in (Oct 28, 2009)

Thanks for the tip i'm going to try that see what happens..


----------



## 8675309 (Jan 8, 2007)

Yes or No!

You will just have to try it.

6db @ 18k to 20k nothing more than the correct cap.

If that does not work you may try a 2nd order or 12db setup, a cap and coil. 

Each order has a phase shift so you should keep that in mind.

For example if the focals have a 4th order slope a 2nd order slope will be close. A 1st or 3rd order will have a phase shift.

You could always do a simple 1st order or 6db or single cap design and play with left and right polarity to fix issues if needed.

Dayton 1% caps are cheap.



SQ'in said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> Here’s my dilemma, I have the Focal polyglass 165V3E component kit setup as my front end setup.
> 
> ...


----------

