# 2-Way or 3-Way Front stage and Why?



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

If space or mounting difficulties were not a concern, would you go with a two way front stage or three way front stage, and why? 

Second Question. Would you run with one sub or two and why?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

if all else is the same and you have no limitations, i would go with 3 way although it is trickier to get right. you can use a large midbass and not have to worry about mating it to a tweeter which is a plus. more option for drivers, etc etc. 

in terms of subs, usually more (cone area) is better due to less excursion for the same output, but i know in your case, if i remember correctly, you have 2 or 3 "sets" of subs that all play different frequencies. i would never suggest this. its just asking for issues


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> if all else is the same and you have no limitations, i would go with 3 way although it is trickier to get right. you can use a large midbass and not have to worry about mating it to a tweeter which is a plus. more option for drivers, etc etc.
> 
> in terms of subs, usually more (cone area) is better due to less excursion for the same output, but i know in your case, if i remember correctly, you have 2 or 3 "sets" of subs that all play different frequencies. i would never suggest this. its just asking for issues


With the two sets of subs and one set of mid bass, I did get a perfectly flat response from 25 - 100 Htz. After 100 it took a nose dive to 200. 

But I the 12's stopped working and I just left them out of the equation. 

On a side note, after listening to your demo, I couldn't get that first song out of my head. So I went to Spinnaker records and found an original copy of Children of the Sun for 99 cents. I'm about to put it on the turntable now.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

High Resolution Audio said:


> If space or mounting difficulties were not a concern, would you go with a two way front stage or three way front stage, and why?
> 
> Second Question. Would you run with one sub or two and why?


Two way front with horns and 8s or 10s is very sick. 
Three way , eeh . If it's a one seater sure, dsp your way in. 
But, either way.

Non horn , three way. 

Just what I would do I guess. , but a two way with even a pro midbass and a amazing tweeter would be tight as well.


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

3 way front stage, as SkizeR stated... with a 3 way setup you can run a larger format midbass driver and with a dedicated midrange you can bring your vocal imaging up higher in your sound stage , also you won't have critical male vocal range being drawn down to the lower section of your door where the midbass is installed. 
As far as sub section. .... one sub is all that is needed. Put the biggest sub you can fit into your application, 12" or 15" (15 is ideal), low end extention from a larger driver versus multiple smaller units. This is not the gospel of audio information, just what works for me.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> With the two sets of subs and one set of mid bass, I did get a perfectly flat response from 25 - 100 Htz. After 100 it took a nose dive to 200.
> 
> But I the 12's stopped working and I just left them out of the equation.
> 
> On a side note, after listening to your demo, I couldn't get that first song out of my head. So I went to Spinnaker records and found an original copy of Children of the Sun for 99 cents. I'm about to put it on the turntable now.


99 cents?! really??


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

hot9dog said:


> 3 way front stage, as SkizeR stated... with a 3 way setup you can run a larger format midbass driver and with a dedicated midrange you can bring your vocal imaging up higher in your sound stage , also you won't have critical male vocal range being drawn down to the lower section of your door where the midbass is installed.
> As far as sub section. .... one sub is all that is needed. Put the biggest sub you can fit into your application, 12" or 15" (15 is ideal), low end extention from a larger driver versus multiple smaller units. This is not the gospel of audio information, just what works for me.


actually, i gotta say.. every system that is properly tuned with mids (and ever tweeters) down low, have all sound up on the dash. including mine. i didnt believe that was possible until i demo'd buzzmans car


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## Focused4door (Aug 15, 2015)

My next vehicle will likely be a three way front.

If space truly were no concern it would be four way front, as in subs up front.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> 99 cents?! really??


Yes. When I walked in and asked the guy if he had that Record, he said not in this store, Sorry. 

I just happened to come across it by luck. He said that thing must have been in here for years. It has a yellow price tag sticker. We haven't used yellow tags for many years. I guess it was your lucky day. 

On amazon, the CD version is selling starting a $110 and going upwards to $400


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> actually, i gotta say.. every system that is properly tuned with mids (and ever tweeters) down low, have all sound up on the dash. including mine. i didnt believe that was possible until i demo'd buzzmans car


Totally agree, usually if tweeter and midbass is lower in the install you can get some great up high imaging, but it does take some critical placement and tuning. The problem arises when the tweeters are placed up high and midbass is low, that vast space between can be problematic for lower octave male voices, will cause a "pulling " effect and make it hard to lock in a center image.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

hot9dog said:


> Totally agree, usually if tweeter and midbass is lower in the install you can get some great up high imaging, but it does take some critical placement and tuning. The problem arises when the tweeters are placed up high and midbass is low, that vast space between can be problematic for lower octave male voices, will cause a "pulling " effect and make it hard to lock in a center image.


can you describe this pulling effect?


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

A good example is jazz singer Gregory Porter, his vocal range is wide but centered in a baritone range. So when his voice goes really deep and in his lower octave range, the lower placed midbass speaker will be dominant in reproduction duties- causing his once centered vocal images to swing to the far left or far right. This pulling effect is really evident when the tweeters are placed up high in the ass pillar


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

Lol in the a-pillar..... lolol this phone has a mind of his own!!


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

I was going to edit that last posting, but it's too damn funny


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ahh gotcha. ill see if i can test this out. any specific tracks?


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

I'm currently tuning my new front stage, the whole Liquid Spirit album by Gregory Porter is one of the "go to" discs that I'm using. The song wolfcry is a great baritone range recording.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

3 way with cone/domes is good for another reason I don't think has been mentioned- getting a good polar response. 2 way setups will almost always have some blooming in the midrange because of it.

If space permits...I would do a 3 way horn front stage too. I think all of my competition setups with horns were 3 way. The Shoei Civic with the ID minihorns that came over to the states from Japan in 98 and 99 popularized the 3 way horn car with the rest of us Team ID guy's future...it beat Rob Rice, which in it's day was like beating Kirk in his class .


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

3-way because beaming.

No really, I'd try to get a big woofer up front like 9 or 10, then a mid like 4 to 5" and then a nice ass tweeter. 

And of course, sub if needed.


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

If space and mounting difficulties weren't a concern, I think I would rather have a 2way setup with 5 1/4's or 6 1/2's in the far corners of the dash with large format tweeters mounted right next to them.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

I did 2-way front. Midbasses play 50-300hz and then widebanders in the dash playing 300hz on up. Sub plays 47hz and down. 

Anyway, the theory was to not break up the frequency response between drivers anywhere in the crucial midrange. Think of the point source concept. All frequencies coming from a single location, and in my case a single driver. It creates an extremely precise and stable image. I *could* add tweeters, and have considered it, but it would just complicate things and likely end up smearing the image. There is no need tonality-speaking with the drivers I am using.

My last car had a more traditional 3-way front with pillar mids and sail tweeters.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Some high end home stereo speakers have concentric speakers where the tweeter is located in the middle of the midrange or mid-bass.

TAD speakers, Pioneer Speakers, KEF LS 50. among many others. I was actually thinking about ordering concentric drivers and installing them in a vehicle. Has anyone done this or am I the only crazy one?


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

There are some concentric car audio speakers.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

fourthmeal said:


> 3-way because beaming.
> 
> No really, I'd try to get a big woofer up front like 9 or 10, then a mid like 4 to 5" and then a nice ass tweeter.
> 
> And of course, sub if needed.


you gunna put that nice ass tweeter in your ass pillar, or whatever hot9dog calls em? lol


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Some high end home stereo speakers have concentric speakers where the tweeter is located in the middle of the midrange or mid-bass.
> 
> TAD speakers, Pioneer Speakers, KEF LS 50. among many others. I was actually thinking about ordering concentric drivers and installing them in a vehicle. Has anyone done this or am I the only crazy one?


erins old setup used kef speakers.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> There are some concentric car audio speakers.


You gonna keep it a secret? What brands?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> you gunna put that nice ass tweeter in your ass pillar, or whatever hot9dog calls em? lol


lol!


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

High Resolution Audio said:


> You gonna keep it a secret? What brands?


xtant had a set made by morel.










i think the audisson/hertz lines had a couple...or at least did at one point?

i think somebody holds a patent or something in the car speaker realm and they are rare because of it. at least that's what i've heard.

i'd be happy as **** if hybrid made a 3.7" biampable concentric with a textile dome! and i'm not being all fan-boy about it - i just love the timbre of their paper cones.


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## mrpeabody (May 26, 2010)

I've had both in my car and i'm going back to 2-way. I have a small cabin, and just got tired of mid range pods clogging up my dash and windshield.

Sucks, because it's the best it has sounded, but I just want to simplify and cut down on equipment.

I plan to get back to a 3-way when I get a different daily with better install options though.


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## Staffordshire (Oct 1, 2011)

once you go 3 way you never want to go 2 way


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Had both 2-way & 3-way. Not an easy question to answer in _real world_ situations. Of course less would seem better. Easier to tune and less cost, but getting a beefy midwoofer anywhere up top & on axis isn't easy unless you drive a bus or something with a elephant sized dash (I prefer stealth). Big difference between theory & reality.


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

Staffordshire said:


> once you go 3 way you never want to go 2 way


Odd... I've done it. 

As far as brands... Morel- illusion- there are some old school ones out there also.

I have the old xtants in the dash of my accord/ I blew one and have been running a tweeter on the dash and I'm very happy with it. My daily driver and toy are both 2 way and Were strongly considering a morel integra in the other car with a 6x9 in the door.

In all seriousness... Get a good pair of bookshelf speakers with properly built xover and plop them on you dash along with a serious 12" sub and I think you would be happy- simple as hell to tune.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

The advantage of a typical 3 way is, that it allows you to get 300hz and up at dash level or higher (although you can do the same with a 6.5 and 2.5-3" mid on the dash). All height cue frequencies are dash level or higher. I feel that visually this alignment gives the stage a bit more cohesion, _and you tend to notice depth a bit more._ 

Tonally, there's no difference between a 2 way and a 3 way, as long as drivers are appropriately chosen. If you're tuning to a ref sound, how close you get to it is down to first and foremost your tuning skills, followed by choice of drivers for the application. A 2 way vs 3 way is not part of this equation. It takes more work dialing in a 3 way as already mentioned and if A and B have equal tuning skills, and the driver choice is right, then A's 2 way will be at par tonally with B's 3 way.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

I only got into SQL car audio 3 years ago, and I am still on a 2 way. 

As far as stage height and vocal imaging, I have 6.5's about 3/4 of the way up the door, fairly high for a car, and then 2" widebands on the dash. The mid plays 85-1500 and the wideband 1500 and up.

I have a bit of droop on deeper male vocals but even then it is just ~3-4 inches under the center of the dash, while anything higher than that sits about 3-4 inches above the dash. Bass and midbass is also centered and just below or at dash level. I have no pull to the left or right though and bass guitar is properly represented.

I have spent months and months on this current tune and setup, lots of time spent on TA as well to get everything in phase without big cancellation areas.
I would say most normal people will get EXCELLENT results with a good 2 way IF you spend the time tuning it and setting it up on the initial install. 

Don't be ashamed of a 2 way rig. They can sound kickass. It's all in the install and tuning.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

It truly depends on so many variables. Just like home audio, there's more than one way to crack that nut.

Speaking of point-source or concentric speakers, you guys ever play with the SEAS units? They look really nice!


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> It truly depends on so many variables. Just like home audio, there's more than one way to crack that nut.
> 
> Speaking of point-source or concentric speakers, you guys ever play with the SEAS units? They look really nice!



I've looked at them a while back. The 5" appears too hefty for stealthy locations. The response graph looks nasty for the the mid & tweeter in the xover range, and above 10khz for the tweet. Wish someone would attempt a small 3" one besides the Illusion Audio C3 CX.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Tannoy, Kef, TAD/Pioneer make the best ones technically speaking- they get the tweeter to cone transition the best. 

The rest have notches in the 4-6k range due to the tweeter termination n the cone. Off axis the FR smooths out.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Bayboy said:


> I've looked at them a while back. The 5" appears too hefty for stealthy locations. The response graph looks nasty for the the mid & tweeter in the xover range, and above 10khz for the tweet. Wish someone would attempt a small 3" one besides the Illusion Audio C3 CX.


Go ahead, be the guinea pig, I dare you! They're only $40.  
Amazon.com: Micca COVO-S Compact 2-Way Bookshelf Speakers: Electronics


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

rton20s said:


> Go ahead, be the guinea pig, I dare you! They're only $40.
> Amazon.com: Micca COVO-S Compact 2-Way Bookshelf Speakers: Electronics


goo!

those'd be super easy to put in the dash corners on axis.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Also I'd like to play with Alpair stuff. Too fragile for car use though!


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

what the hell. ordered em. free 2-day shipping...be here friday.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Jordans sound great...and do a little better in the car.


fourthmeal said:


> Also I'd like to play with Alpair stuff. Too fragile for car use though!


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Jordans sound great...and do a little better in the car.


And lets not forget the LGK 1.0. It has some unconventional airspace requirements but IB, it should perform quite well. It has one of the lowest CSD (waterfall) responses, extremely clean. Simple and inexpensive speaker. I'm working with FR89EX right now but next I think it will be the LGK.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You can get a flat phase response with multiple drivers. Tom Danley has a horn with 60 some drivers on it- a 3 way design that has a phase response better than a lot of full range drivers.

But you are not making a point source when you bounce them off of the glass. At least not for their entire operating range.



benny z said:


> I did 2-way front. Midbasses play 50-300hz and then widebanders in the dash playing 300hz on up. Sub plays 47hz and down.
> 
> Anyway, the theory was to not break up the frequency response between drivers anywhere in the crucial midrange. Think of the point source concept. All frequencies coming from a single location, and in my case a single driver. It creates an extremely precise and stable image. I *could* add tweeters, and have considered it, but it would just complicate things and likely end up smearing the image. There is no need tonality-speaking with the drivers I am using.
> 
> My last car had a more traditional 3-way front with pillar mids and sail tweeters.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

^ true. and true.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Make it simple as follows:


If you can not place a 5" mid and tweeter on the dash, go with a 3 way since you will have a 3" mid then you need 6.5"s on the doors.


2 way with 5" or higher with enclosure will give you the bass you need without having 6"s on the doors, the sub will fill the rest of the range.


Now if you want the ultimate extreme system.

8"s in the kick panels with enclosures, 3-5" mids on the dash tweeters and one or 2 12" subs.


If you can get a set of point source drivers, (components that have the tweeter in the middle of the driver) you eliminate the extra work of tweeter pods or extra pillar work.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

rton20s said:


> Go ahead, be the guinea pig, I dare you! They're only $40.
> Amazon.com: Micca COVO-S Compact 2-Way Bookshelf Speakers: Electronics



Interesting..... tell me more about the drivers if you have info. Like actual dimensions, rear shielding or cabinet shielded, etc..


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Bayboy said:


> Interesting..... tell me more about the drivers if you have info


This is the most detailed information I could find on them. The Micca MB42X gets rave reviews for bookshelf speakers at their price point. These, probably not so much. But for $40 and a full DSP at your disposal? Who knows. 

Micca COVO-S Review


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

rton20s said:


> This is the most detailed information I could find on them. The Micca MB42X gets rave reviews for bookshelf speakers at their price point. These, probably not so much. But for $40 and a full DSP at your disposal? Who knows.
> 
> Micca COVO-S Review




:laugh: Nevermind.... looks like a waste of time. Of course, can't have expected too much from a $40 set including cabinets. Corners had to be cut somewhere.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Bayboy said:


> :laugh: Nevermind.... looks like a waste of time. Of course, can't have expected too much from a $40 set including cabinets. Corners had to be cut somewhere.


I like noaudiophile's reviews. If you read through to the end, you'll see where he builds his "Micca Voltron, the epic desktop speaker of retardeness." He combines the Covo-S with the Club 3 which both perform pretty poorly on their own. The end result is that, after DSP correction, for near field computer speakers he prefers this setup to the MB42X which he (and countless others) have reviewed favorably. 

My biggest take away from his Voltron configuration was that so long as you have a dedicated midbass and high pass the Covo-S at a reasonable frequency (200 Hz LR4) they actually perform fairly well. Seems about what one would be looking to do in a car anyway. I doubt there is anything you would be able to do about the tweeter issues caused by the physical tweeter/mid transition though. I believe this was one of Erin's observations when he commented on them in the past. 

But, hey... it is a cheap 3" point source. Short of the Illusion C3 or tearing apart a Kef MUO, I don't think there are many options out there for a small point source. Though, I am sure many will just point to small "full range" drivers.


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

I would go with a 2 way setup, 5" mid 20mm tweeter and a small front sub and a big rear sub!


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

heh. i cancelled my order. was hoping with a mini dsp for correction that they'd be decent. it seems he corrected them as much as possible and still hated them. oh well.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

rton20s said:


> I like noaudiophile's reviews. If you read through to the end, you'll see where he builds his "Micca Voltron, the epic desktop speaker of retardeness." He combines the Covo-S with the Club 3 which both perform pretty poorly on their own. The end result is that, after DSP correction, for near field computer speakers he prefers this setup to the MB42X which he (and countless others) have reviewed favorably.
> 
> My biggest take away from his Voltron configuration was that so long as you have a dedicated midbass and high pass the Covo-S at a reasonable frequency (200 Hz LR4) they actually perform fairly well. Seems about what one would be looking to do in a car anyway. I doubt there is anything you would be able to do about the tweeter issues caused by the physical tweeter/mid transition though. I believe this was one of Erin's observations when he commented on them in the past.
> 
> But, hey... it is a cheap 3" point source. Short of the Illusion C3 or tearing apart a Kef MUO, I don't think there are many options out there for a small point source. Though, I am sure many will just point to small "full range" drivers.



Yep... I'll stick with the Wavecors that I plan to put in the upper doors and tweets in sails. Helix dsp is enough to make it all come together.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

tonny said:


> I would go with a 2 way setup, 5" mid 20mm tweeter and a small front sub and a big rear sub!



Why? Put a capable sub up front and call it a day. 

Something about such a configuration seem mighty familiar to me. Can't quite put my finger on it.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Bayboy said:


> Yep... I'll stick with the Wavecors that I plan to put in the upper doors and tweets in sails. Helix dsp is enough to make it all come together.


You aren't the only one that has been eyeballing the Wavecors. 

Their tweeters, 2" and 3" drivers are all very interesting. Pricing is decent through Solen as well.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Solen site can be a ***** to play through though. I wish brands like Wavcor made themselves more find-able in the US.


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

rton20s said:


> Why? Put a capable sub up front and call it a day.
> 
> Something about such a configuration seem mighty familiar to me. Can't quite put my finger on it.


Trying to fill something the size of my shoe at judging levels isn't like me running down the highway with the windows down at full tilt.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

rton20s said:


> You aren't the only one that has been eyeballing the Wavecors.
> 
> Their tweeters, 2" and 3" drivers are all very interesting. Pricing is decent through Solen as well.



Bought a set of the 2.75" a while back and soldered pigtails on one. Played with it for a little bit on a home receiver and liked them. Also have a pair of Whispers I bought for the same purpose. The Whisper was impressive. Rich sounding, good off-axis, and can handle lower frequencies better due to it's high excursion, but it wasn't as detailed as the Wavecor. Not a vast difference, but noticeable. The Wavecor doesn't have much excursion so it definitely needs a good xover point. The top extends better than the Whisper but starts to get a little ragged on-axis at the upper limits. Going without a tweeter is not an option this time around so I don't see that as an issue as of now. The Wavecor could probably take great use of a tiny enclosure like the RS75-4 did, just not in the plans at this moment with stock door locations being the target. 

I'm looking to cross around 500-800hz on the bottom and up to around 3khz on the top. I will see which is better. The Wavecors will get the first round.


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

rton20s said:


> Why? Put a capable sub up front and call it a day.
> 
> Something about such a configuration seem mighty familiar to me. Can't quite put my finger on it.


With a 5" you need the sub to play up higher then most 6" mid basses, that way it's better to have a small and fast front sub which plays the higher bass note's and a 15" in the rear to fill in the low end. And also it can cancel out some room modes so you have a better overall bass response! And easier to dail in a better curve in the low end.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

You lost me at "small and fast sub".

That's not a thing.


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> You lost me at "small and fast sub".
> 
> That's not a thing.


In your mind that's not a thing... Maybe if you learn and test some more you will understand what is meant with that.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Uh oh


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

8's play 50 cycles faster than 18's... What's not to understand?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

tonny said:


> With a 5" you need the sub to play up higher then most 6" mid basses, that way it's better to have a small and fast front sub which plays the higher bass note's and a 15" in the rear to fill in the low end. And also it can cancel out some room modes so you have a better overall bass response! And easier to dail in a better curve in the low end.


WRONG.

I can see where this is going.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Well not to get in a pissing match but, Tonny, have you read Dan Wiggins white paper on inductance vs. "woofer speed"? I'm not saying Dan had all the answers but the paper may help a great deal if you've not seen it.

And, as an owner of an ultra-low inductance Acoustic Elegance subwoofer, I can tell you that excepting cone breakup, a low inductance subwoofer, even a big one, can play higher frequencies just fine. 

But we must first agree on what you meant by "speed", to properly understand what is going on.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

LOL... high inductance won't even excuse that. Never heard a sub of any size have a problem playing above 50hz or even 100hz.


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## Regus (Feb 1, 2011)

The one thing that always strikes me about this is the comparison with home audio. Whereas a typical 2-way bookshelf speaker can have the tweeter and midwoofer centre-to-centre spacing down to a few cm, this is rarely the case for factory car 2-way systems. Moving to 3-way can literally fill the gap between midbass and tweeter with a dedicated midrange and allow you to go to a larger midbass.

That said, I sometimes wonder if we are poorly served by trying to use the same drivers for a car 2-way as a bookshelf speaker - I like the idea of a 2-way with an 8" and 3" combination. If the really high frequencies were lacking, perhaps a small point source driver like that in the Kef hone cinema "eggs" would let you have your cake and eat it i.e. a 3-way that's about as simple as a 2-way in terms of install and time alignment...


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Regus said:


> I like the idea of a 2-way with an 8" and 3" combination. If the really high frequencies were lacking, perhaps a small point source driver like that in the Kef hone cinema "eggs" would let you have your cake and eat it i.e. a 3-way that's about as simple as a 2-way in terms of install and time alignment...



C3CX + C8 is exactly what you are describing. 


















There have been quite a few builds documented here on DIYMA using point source drivers from Illusion, Morel, KEF and the like.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Home audio drivers aren't the problem. It's the room and listening position. Off-axis characteristics can not be denied. Of course there's times when we'd like to use some attractive raw driver that simply won't lend itself to our use, and perhaps some companies concentrate on certain aspects like JBL that supposedly designs with off-axis in mind. That changes things. Yet we also have tools to deal with such issues at a lesser expense than home audio.


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

Unless you are going 8, 9 or 10s up front in a 3 way I think its overkill and probably pointless if you select the right drivers.

A good 6.5 and 1" tweeter can cover what you need down till a sub takes over. There will be so much overlap with a 2, 3 or 4" midrange stuck in the middle there. 

Also the trouble of driver placement, aiming and tuning.. the tuning is just so much harder with a 3 way in a car.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

DonutHands said:


> Unless you are going 8, 9 or 10s up front in a 3 way I think its overkill and probably pointless if you select the right drivers.
> 
> A good 6.5 and 1" tweeter can cover what you need down till a sub takes over. There will be so much overlap with a 2, 3 or 4" midrange stuck in the middle there.
> 
> Also the trouble of driver placement, aiming and tuning.. the tuning is just so much harder with a 3 way in a car.


I went from a 2 way with a good (read: capable of a fairly low high pass) 1" tweeter and 6.5" mid to the same with the addition of a 3" midrange and it made a significant difference. If limiting yourself to stock locations (save for tweeters), it can be quite tough to get a 2 way to sound as good as a 3 way. Yes, even taking into account the added complication of tuning the 3 way. All of this is, of course, vehicle dependent.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

turbo5upra said:


> 8's play 50 cycles faster than 18's... What's not to understand?


of course!


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

rton20s said:


> C3CX + C8 is exactly what you are describing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


look at the termination of the tweeter to the mid on the c3cx.

in a coax/concentric, you want the midrange/tweeter transition to be as smooth as possible and also to not cause the mid to move (thus a high-pass filter). 

This termination on the illusion c3cx above is very poor*. the tweeter sticks out above the mid's cone and there is no semblance of an attempted waveguide to help smooth the tweeter's HF response. which guarantees comb filtering issues (akin to what the review of the small bookshelf coax you posted earlier has).


*I'm not saying in X person's car they don't sound good. Lord knows everyone wants to take that out of what I said. I am simply talking about the design of the driver and an obvious flaw. Whether or not that makes an audible difference to people is up to them.


----------



## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

By the way these things are Garbage! FWIW

Edit. you can have mine for $15 if you want to try them yourself.



rton20s said:


> Go ahead, be the guinea pig, I dare you! They're only $40.
> Amazon.com: Micca COVO-S Compact 2-Way Bookshelf Speakers: Electronics


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

ErinH said:


> look at the termination of the tweeter to the mid on the c3cx.
> 
> in a coax/concentric, you want the midrange/tweeter transition to be as smooth as possible and also to not cause the mid to move (thus a high-pass filter).
> 
> ...


Understood. And of all of the people on this forum, I would guess that you probably have the most intimate knowledge and experience with concentric drivers. 

While I can see that there are shortcomings in the design of the Illusion drivers, in my experience they still perform pretty well. Certainly better than the attempts at tweeterless installs using "fullrange" and midrange drivers. 

Maybe if you need a really small concentric, the better options is to buy one of these and crack it open like an egg to get at the good stuff on the inside?


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

1fishman said:


> By the way these things are Garbage! FWIW


Tell us how you really feel. 

Did you purchase a set or where did you hear them? N/M saw that you ninja edited the answer. 

I might be picking up a set of the MB42Xs as a gift for my brother to use in his garage. Much better reviewed speakers than the little COCO-S.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

rton20s said:


> While I can see that there are shortcomings in the design of the Illusion drivers, in my experience they still perform pretty well. Certainly better than the attempts at tweeterless installs using "fullrange" and midrange drivers.



*cough*


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

You got any YouTube videos?


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

benny z said:


> You got any YouTube videos?


We already know yours is bigger.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

benny z said:


> *cough*


Someone having a hernia exam?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

rton20s said:


> Why? Put a capable sub up front and call it a day.
> 
> Something about such a configuration seem mighty familiar to me. Can't quite put my finger on it.



With all due respect to Linda, that photo is a bit misleading in the context of your post. She got world champion in _install_ in her particular class. Not the sound quality portion event. 

Not trying to poo-poo on how she did in the sound Q portion of the event. Just making the clarification to misleading post/photo combination.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

benny z said:


> You got any YouTube videos?



I did get a chance to listen to his system in person, it is really good.

I told him it was great and not to change anything and a couple months later
he became the State Street champion.  with illusion drivers, yes, a 3 way front, 6.5" on the doors.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Do you compete meca only or IASCA also?


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

benny z said:


> Do you compete meca only or IASCA also?


Who me? not often, I just show up to some MECA comps or Get together events and that's how I met Rton20s


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

ErinH said:


> With all due respect to Linda, that photo is a bit misleading in the context of your post. She got world champion in _install_ in her particular class. Not the sound quality portion event.
> 
> Not trying to poo-poo on how she did in the sound Q portion of the event. Just making the clarification to misleading post/photo combination.


True. I should have found a better photo. Didn't even realize which trophy she was holding until after I posted. That was just one of the most recent photos from her build log. I probably should have dug around a little longer to find a good photo in the build log that clearly displays the subwoofer installation.

And while an award for install certainly doesn't qualify a car as sounding good, the collection of competition hardware at the Papasin house as well as the ears of a lot of people who have demoed the car does.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Sorry, no, I meant Linda or the above poster (Linda's husband?)

At any rate, must be MECA only, as I don't see a Linda or Papasin in the IASCA SQC finals results.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

benny z said:


> At any rate, must be MECA only, as I don't see a Linda or Papasin in the IASCA SQC finals results.


SQ is sq so in theory, MECA or IASCA shouldn't really matter. Top 2-3 at finals from each league, should more or less be at par. Unless there's a difference between how the two leagues operate / judge.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

sqnut said:


> SQ is sq so in theory, MECA or IASCA shouldn't really matter. Top 2-3 at finals from each league, should more or less be at par. Unless there's a difference between how the two leagues operate / judge.


kinda, but really besides the point. i was just looking to compare finals scores since this person so eloquently stated that their small illusion coaxials "certainly perform better" than wideband tweeterless installs. 

not sure how the meca street class aligns with iasca's classes...maybe amateur would be a good fit. if so, by all means - join me in amateur in iasca this year.  ...or perhaps i should join meca.

...not that organized competition placement is the end-all be-all of speaker testing. but you know what i mean.


----------



## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

benny z said:


> kinda, but really besides the point. i was just looking to compare finals scores since this person so eloquently stated that their small illusion coaxials "certainly perform better" than wideband tweeterless installs.
> 
> not sure how the meca street class aligns with iasca's classes...maybe amateur would be a good fit. if so, by all means - join me in amateur in iasca this year.  ...or perhaps i should join meca.
> 
> ...not that organized competition placement is the end-all be-all of speaker testing. but you know what i mean.



There is no correlation which was something I pushed to moe this year... It's like doing an apples to hippopotamus comparison. 

A "stock" car can be easily forced into pro in Iasca... Is it common? No... But to expand the market I feel a little better transition between the 2 leagues is needed.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

benny z said:


> kinda, but really besides the point. i was just looking to compare finals scores since this person so eloquently stated that their small illusion coaxials "certainly perform better" than wideband tweeterless installs.


Someone whose opinion I blindly trust runs woofer and widebander like you. Will a 3-4" coaxial sound better? ....I don't know. 



benny z said:


> not sure how the meca street class aligns with iasca's classes...maybe amateur would be a good fit. if so, by all means - join me in amateur in iasca this year.  ...or perhaps i should join meca.


I'd be a die hard competitor except that thee are no events here. The other thing I notice is that a lot of folks tend to be either or between MECA and IASCA, very few, if any who do both. Mybe conflicting schedules too much time commitment, whatever.



benny z said:


> ...not that organized competition placement is the end-all be-all of speaker testing. but you know what i mean.


Agreed, cause the be-all end-all is an SQ video on youtube, judged by HRA using ref grade headsets. Man, I was sooo tempted to make one as well....but I don't have proper mic's like ya'll.


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

sqnut said:


> I'd be a die hard competitor except that thee are no events here. The other thing I notice is that a lot of folks tend to be either or between MECA and IASCA, very few, if any who do both. Mybe conflicting schedules too much time commitment, whatever.


simple enough to start hosting your own events I would think... Not sure since the training might be a snag.

As someone who has ran the meca and Iasca circuit with 2 cars in one season I can say it's a challenge- but if you have one car for both its not that bad- just need event hosts that support both.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> Man, I was sooo tempted to make one as well....but I don't have proper mic's like ya'll.


didnt you know all you need is a cell phone video? come on give us a proper demo with that cell phone to youtube video!


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

turbo5upra said:


> simple enough to start hosting your own events I would think... Not sure since the training might be a snag.


judges training via youtube.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

turbo5upra said:


> There is no correlation which was something I pushed to moe this year... It's like doing an apples to hippopotamus comparison.
> 
> A "stock" car can be easily forced into pro in Iasca... Is it common? No... But to expand the market I feel a little better transition between the 2 leagues is needed.


That better transition, from a competitor standpoint, sometimes comes from a different tune. If they were so alike, there would be no point in having them separate, other than one won't buy the other.



sqnut said:


> SQ is sq so in theory, MECA or IASCA shouldn't really matter. Top 2-3 at finals from each league, should more or less be at par. Unless there's a difference between how the two leagues operate / judge.


There is a difference. The scoresheets, while in general have the same stuff, have different weights to categories, different criteria, and different judging material.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1488277138148937/


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## Regus (Feb 1, 2011)

Perhaps the most significant thing in deciding on 2-way or 3-way for competition is what class you want to compete in and whether the extra drivers in a 3-way would be allowed in a given class (i.e. whether or not you are restricted to stock locations or can use non-stock locations).

Away from competition, there are always going to be pros and cons to both 2-way and 3-way that are well known/understood: moving to more channels of amplification and the requirements in terms of processing/time alignment, phase, driver locations (3-way) versus capabilities in terms of combined midbass/midrange output, integration between tweeter and combined midrange/midbass and subwoofer on terms of crossover points (2-way).

What would be REALLY interesting would be to get a bunch of experts/enthusiasts to do two installs (one 2-way, one 3-way) in identical cars, get the same person to tune each one and then have people judge which sounded "better", then repeat the whole process with 2 more identical cars that were very different from the first two, just to see how much it is vehicle-dependent. Of course, it would be hard to keep parity between the 2-way and 3-way builds but if as much of the install (wiring, amps, processor) as possible was kept the same it could possibly work (someone's going to tell me this has already been done now, aren't they?).

BTW, If you zoom in on the part of the trophy that says SQL you can see the word/acronym MECA.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Yeh. Mine says IASCA.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> didnt you know all you need is a cell phone video? come on give us a proper demo with that cell phone to youtube video!


Like the $0.05 mic on my Sony and your $100 mic and the sound card on the laptop would give the same result.... Maybe I'm wrong.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> Like the $0.05 mic on my Sony and your $100 mic and the sound card on the laptop would give the same result.... Maybe I'm wrong.


the video i posted for gstokes was filmed with my phone. the one i "made" for HRA wasnt recorded lol. it was a joke. i took my video for gstokes and just overlayed regular audio tracks and rendered it out and uploaded it to youtube


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

At the risk of stepping on egg shells.......any truth to the rumour that HAT's have traditionally struggled in MECA?...excuse me if it's an impertinent question. If true, I find it a bit odd.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> At the risk of stepping on egg shells.......any truth to the rumour that HAT's have traditionally struggled in MECA?...excuse me if it's an impertinent question. If true, I find it a bit odd.


no comment.. lol

idk, i think its just that team hybrid does iasca instead of meca since hat supports iasca.


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## mrpeabody (May 26, 2010)

sqnut said:


> At the risk of stepping on egg shells.......any truth to the rumour that HAT's have traditionally struggled in MECA?...excuse me if it's an impertinent question. If true, I find it a bit odd.


When I started going to some meca shows out here in California, the HAT were usually doing very well.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

sqnut said:


> At the risk of stepping on egg shells.......any truth to the rumour that HAT's have traditionally struggled in MECA?...excuse me if it's an impertinent question. If true, I find it a bit odd.


these things are usually land mines so let's play it by the numbers...

MECA Finals Results. HAT isn't an official Team Member in MECA so I'm pulling these numbers off who I think/know are affiliated with HAT. I am probably off by a couple. 
Of 49 individual competitors, about 4 of them are HAT team guys. Here's who I think they are, so people don't think I'm skipping anyone on purpose: Scott W, Steve W, Davy H, Larry Ng. (by the way, all are great guys who I consider in some capacity as friends)


IASCA Finals Results. They don't list teams so I'm taking a stab at this one as well.
Of 55 or so individual competitors, 8 of them are HAT team guys that I know of. With IASCA, I don't know as many people so I have a feeling there are a few or more I'm leaving out here, though. Wouldn't surprise me if HAT made up as many as 12-15 people competing in IASCA INAC (finals) this year.


Comparing the HAT competitors between orgs you have probably 60-70 something individuals that competed in both Finals events that weekend. I'm guessing there are about 4 HAT team guys (the ones I mentioned earlier) who competed in both orgs.


So, yes, it seems there are more HAT competitors in IASCA by the numbers.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

benny z said:


> kinda, but really besides the point. i was just looking to compare finals scores since this person so eloquently stated that their small illusion coaxials "certainly perform better" than wideband tweeterless installs.
> 
> not sure how the meca street class aligns with iasca's classes...maybe amateur would be a good fit. if so, by all means - join me in amateur in iasca this year.  ...or perhaps i should join meca.


Just to be clear, I do not run the small coax/point source drivers in my car. I was simply stating that _*in my experience*_ I have found that the car running an actual tweeter sounded better than those attempting to use a full range driver only. That isn't to say that a tweeterless car can't sound great. I've heard two on my own team that sounded very good. 

I haven't looked at the IASCA rule book to see where my car would fall in classification. I do know that we would be in different classes in MECA. I also have no plans to travel cross country to compete at Finals. I feel fortunate enough to able to have the time and a family that supports me competing at the state level. 



benny z said:


> ...not that organized competition placement is the end-all be-all of speaker testing. but you know what i mean.


Ain't that the truth.


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

If I could make a brief comment on something this thread has touched on.
I have been doing some listening test with coincident "point source" speakers with my home audio system. I have purchased 4 different manufacturers speakers, Morel, Audison, Eclipse, Seas. Ranging from $59 to $450 a pair. Sizes 4", 5". Mounted them in about 3 liter sealed encosures. Two have dedicated crossovers, two just have caps across the tweeter. I have an A-B speaker level switcher which allows me to compare each of these to my home McIntosh speakers (XLS360's). I am just switching the mid and tweeter in the XLS. The 10" woofers play with all.
Do any sound as good as the McIntosh, no.
Do they have response issues. Yes some fixable with EQ.
What I did find however is that "out of the box" all theses speakers yielded a sonic soundstage and realistic, believable sound image that has taken me some time to achieve in my Benz using separate drivers for the mid and tweeter.
I have read much recently on the internet about the coincident speaker design philosophy hearing from both the believer and the skeptic/critic.
My conclusion thus far, and I am not done listening yet, is that this type of speaker design has huge sonic benefits, if properly implimented in the car.
My $.02?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

ErinH said:


> these things are usually land mines so let's play it by the numbers...


Certainly not wanting to set off any explosions, I was just curious. But your analysis was very objective and factual and the issue is probably best left there.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

garysummers said:


> My $.02?


Thanks for the feedback Gary. I'd love to hear more about your testing/evaluation at one of the future GTGs.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Well... those Miccas are probably going to get ordered now. Lol


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Bayboy said:


> Well... those Miccas are probably going to get ordered now. Lol


Bwahahaha... Just buy 'em from 1fishman.


----------



## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Well not to get in a pissing match but, Tonny, have you read Dan Wiggins white paper on inductance vs. "woofer speed"? I'm not saying Dan had all the answers but the paper may help a great deal if you've not seen it.
> 
> And, as an owner of an ultra-low inductance Acoustic Elegance subwoofer, I can tell you that excepting cone breakup, a low inductance subwoofer, even a big one, can play higher frequencies just fine.
> 
> But we must first agree on what you meant by "speed", to properly understand what is going on.


I agree all speakers can get to the same speed, maybe I need to state it different.... It's more the attack and decay that I want upfront to connect with the mids on the dash, you can get that with an big driver.... but you can't get that upfront! Or you need an very big car but we don't have them in europe. 
And the rear sub an 15" free air for the low end. It's all in the box get that right for the driver and it wil sound good! get the box wrong and it sounds bad....


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

tonny said:


> I agree all speakers can get to the same speed, maybe I need to state it different.... It's more the attack and decay that I want upfront to connect with the mids on the dash, you can get that with an big driver.... but you can't get that upfront! Or you need an very big car but we don't have them in europe.
> And the rear sub an 15" free air for the low end. It's all in the box get that right for the driver and it wil sound good! get the box wrong and it sounds bad....


Why can't you get that upfront? Upfront bass is about properly setting the LPF to avoid localization, the transition from sub to midbass, and avoiding buzzes and resonances that draw your attention back. Why do you think a big speaker has more problems with this than a small speaker?


----------



## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

gijoe said:


> Why can't you get that upfront? Upfront bass is about properly setting the LPF to avoid localization, the transition from sub to midbass, and avoiding buzzes and resonances that draw your attention back. Why do you think a big speaker has more problems with this than a small speaker?


Can you get an 15" up front???? 

I can't at least there is no space to even mount it even without box....


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

tonny said:


> Can you get an 15" up front????
> 
> I can't at least there is no space to even mount it even without box....


hes saying you can get the sound to seem like its upfront. and hes absolutely right


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

tonny said:


> Can you get an 15" up front????
> 
> I can't at least there is no space to even mount it even without box....


I see. With proper tuning, you can get an upfront illusion, even with the sub physically behind you.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

tonny said:


> It's more the attack and decay that I want upfront to connect with the mids on the dash, you can get that with an big driver.... but you can't get that upfront! Or you need an very big car but we don't have them in europe.


Define "big." Will a C12XL in front of a Smart ForTwo do it for you? This is what I should have linked to previously. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1965814-post146.html

(And yes, an adult can still ride comfortably in that seat.)



SkizeR said:


> hes saying you can get the sound to seem like its upfront. and hes absolutely right





gijoe said:


> I see. With proper tuning, you can get an upfront illusion, even with the sub physically behind you.


Ditto.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

gijoe said:


> I see. With proper tuning, you can get an upfront illusion, even with the sub physically behind you.


However, there's also the fact that front mounted subs don't guarantee there won't be the feeling of subs behind you. I've heard setups with no speakers behind the listener and the acoustics of the car itself caused the feeling of a subwoofer being behind you. And that's not including instances of seat vibration.


----------



## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

sqnut said:


> At the risk of stepping on egg shells.......any truth to the rumour that HAT's have traditionally struggled in MECA?...excuse me if it's an impertinent question. If true, I find it a bit odd.





SkizeR said:


> no comment.. lol
> 
> idk, i think its just that team hybrid does iasca instead of meca since hat supports iasca.


There are some team members that do well in meca, but to the diehard team members, they just don't care about meca (for a variety of reasons).


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ErinH said:


> However, there's also the fact that front mounted subs don't guarantee there won't be the feeling of subs behind you. I've heard setups with no speakers behind the listener and the acoustics of the car itself caused the feeling of a subwoofer being behind you. And that's not including instances of seat vibration.


that would be most unfortunate


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Also consider pathlengths for waves to develop (usually longer from rear), and the fact that you may hear cone/motor noise from a sub up front more than you would from the rear.


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

gijoe said:


> I see. With proper tuning, you can get an upfront illusion, even with the sub physically behind you.


I know, but as I did say before there are more thing on it to have 2 sub's... maybe you can't see the advantage off that but they are there!


----------



## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

rton20s said:


> Define "big." Will a C12XL in front of a Smart ForTwo do it for you? This is what I should have linked to previously.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1965814-post146.html
> 
> ...


Without a decent box... and not within the rules for competing EMMA in europe... so a no go.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

tonny said:


> Without a decent box... and not within the rules for competing EMMA in europe... so a no go.


I believe the box is great than 1 cf... excuse me 28 liters. 

I haven never looked at EMMA rules. What makes a smaller sub compliant and a larger sub non-compliant?

I'm still not seeing the advantage of running two different sized subs. Especially if they are playing within the same or have overlapping pass bands. Install a solid set of midbasses to compliment your subwoofer and midrange and call it a day.


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

rton20s said:


> I believe the box is great than 1 cf... excuse me 28 liters.
> 
> I haven never looked at EMMA rules. What makes a smaller sub compliant and a larger sub non-compliant?
> 
> I'm still not seeing the advantage of running two different sized subs. Especially if they are playing within the same or have overlapping pass bands. Install a solid set of midbasses to compliment your subwoofer and midrange and call it a day.


That you can't see the advantage does not mean there is not one.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

tonny said:


> That you can't see the advantage does not mean there is not one.


OK. So please explain. Yours seems to be the dissenting opinion. At least in this forum. 

If there is something here that is worth learning, I am all ears.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

rton20s said:


> I believe the box is great than 1 cf... excuse me 28 liters.
> 
> I haven never looked at EMMA rules. What makes a smaller sub compliant and a larger sub non-compliant?
> 
> I'm still not seeing the advantage of running two different sized subs. Especially if they are playing within the same or have overlapping pass bands. Install a solid set of midbasses to compliment your subwoofer and midrange and call it a day.


i actually see a disadvantage.. phase issues at the crossover. 

tonny, 100hz and under wavelengths are so damn long that hearing a sub behind you would be due to factors other than the sub and its size. it would be from phase issues, and cues, like rattles and resonance


----------



## SQToyota (May 14, 2015)

May get some hate for this one.... imo HAT= overrated.  not just i thinks this though. Every time i see a HAT post i want to post a comment, but i hold back


----------



## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

We should White Elephant gift each other ****ty speakers (or cheap-ass perceived-****ty), and then get them measured.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

SQToyota said:


> May get some hate for this one.... imo HAT= overrated.  not just i thinks this though. Every time i see a HAT post i want to post a comment, but i hold back



Everyone has their own tastes and opinion.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> We should White Elephant gift each other ****ty speakers (or cheap-ass perceived-****ty), and then get them measured.



Hahaha!

I'm in.


----------



## mrpeabody (May 26, 2010)

SQToyota said:


> May get some hate for this one.... imo HAT= overrated.  not just i thinks this though. Every time i see a HAT post i want to post a comment, but i hold back


I enjoyed mine when I had them. Plus, they aren't even close to the boner they used to be so i don't see how they could be overrated. :shrug:


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

SQToyota said:


> May get some hate for this one.... imo HAT= overrated.  not just i thinks this though. Every time i see a HAT post i want to post a comment, but i hold back


Apparently... you don't. 



fourthmeal said:


> We should White Elephant gift each other ****ty speakers (or cheap-ass perceived-****ty), and then get them measured.


So... who is buying who the COVO-S?


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

You keep hinting at them... know something we don't? For $15 it's tempting just to have something to play with. Like I Don't have enough stuff laying around as it is.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Bayboy said:


> You keep hinting at them... know something we don't, For $15 it's tempting just to have something to play with. Like I Don't have enough stuff laying around as it is.


Absolutely not. It is more of a running joke at this point. Fourthmeal suggested a white elephant exchange of "cheap-ass perceived ****ty" speakers and that is almost exactly how fishman1 described them. 

Plus, it is probably driving Erin crazy that such a poorly designed "point source" keeps getting brought up. After all, I was once described to one of the few girls who paid me any mind as "nothing more than an instigator and trouble maker" by one of our high school teachers.


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Ahhh... "cheap - ass perceived ****ty" somehow comes across in a reverse way.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Bayboy said:


> Ahhh... "cheap - ass perceived ****ty" somehow comes across in a reverse way.


Sometimes perception _is_ reality.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

You got plenty jokes today! LOL


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

fourthmeal said:


> We should White Elephant gift each other ****ty speakers (or cheap-ass perceived-****ty), and then get them measured.


Why bother shipping them, we'll just record them on youtube and send eau other "white elephant" video links..LOL/JK ...sorry my bad...couldn't help it.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Agreed, cause the be-all end-all is an SQ video on youtube, judged by HRA using ref grade headsets. Man, I was sooo tempted to make one as well....but I don't have proper mic's like ya'll.[/QUOTE]

It's funny that you mentioned that. Today I played benny z's you-tube videos through my computer on my vehicles sound system. The sound quality was phenomenal. It sounded just as if I were playing a CD. 

Benny z's system IMO is the most perfectly tuned system that I have ever heard. And I have listened to the Magic Bus in person. 

The biggest thing that I noticed is the flaws in my system. I was able to recall how perfect and uncolored and natural sounding voices were when listening to benny z's recording on my headphones. 

While playing his videos through my vehicle stereo, I noticed that voices had a slight coloration to them. I don't know exactly how to explain it. Some people have commented that Alpine head units always seem to impart a tone quality in voices that make it seem as if someone were "singing through a tube." 

Maybe someone with great tuning skills would be able to correct this issue, but I do not have great tuning skills. 

Bottom line is.......benny z's system is a tough act to follow. I don't think that anyone would have the balls to compare their system to his via you-tube video. No one has done it as of yet and I doubt anyone will.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

O. M. G. 

Stop! Lmao


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

for real! 

I heard Benny's car at finals this year and even his youtube sounds even better than it did in real life! it's amazing how awesome his youtube video is!


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

tonny said:


> That you can't see the advantage does not mean there is not one.



NOT trying to diss what you say, cause IMO multiple subs CAN work well, but I do NOT have enough experience with them and it DOES go against the grain of a lot of CAR audio expertise, though not necessarily home audio SQ design.

Soooo... can you give any examples AND details of installs you have enjoyed with multiple bandpassed sub channels??


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

ErinH said:


> for real!
> 
> I heard Benny's car at finals this year and even his youtube sounds even better than it did in real life! it's amazing how awesome his youtube video is!



That was my YouTube tune, dawg


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

w0rd?

5w3et!


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

4r33Lz y0


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Bayboy said:


> Ahhh... "cheap - ass perceived ****ty" somehow comes across in a reverse way.



Yeah the nature of White Elephant is to basically give something you wouldn't really want yourself. At least in some circles.

But I think it would be fun, maybe we make another thread about it. 

We could set a budget max of, say, $30-40 shipped. We have to decide if we're doing home bookshelf or mini speaker type of things (which I like, because I'm not putting junk in my car, lol.)

But because we're audiophiles or whatever, we should try to buy stuff that is obscure (ie: not Dayton speakers from PE).


Hmmm well we may have to hold this idea till next year, just looked at the calendar date.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

seafish said:


> Soooo... can you give any examples AND details of installs you have enjoyed with multiple bandpassed sub channels??


Grayson (strakele) won meca modified class finals with a 10 in his floorboard and 2 15s ib in the trunk. I heard that setup right after the win.....and it was sweet. I'm pretty sure he's still running a simular setup......


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

SQToyota said:


> May get some hate for this one.... imo HAT= overrated.  not just i thinks this though. Every time i see a HAT post i want to post a comment, but i hold back


Don't hold back. I always let my opinion be known with regards to HAT.
**Cough cough go with scanspeak**


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

HighResolutionAudio said:


> It's funny that you mentioned that. Today I played benny z's you-tube videos through my computer on my vehicles sound system. The sound quality was phenomenal. It sounded just as if I were playing a CD.
> 
> Benny z's system IMO is the most perfectly tuned system that I have ever heard. And I have listened to the Magic Bus in person.
> 
> ...


Dude, you really, really need to get out more......have you ever been to an event or gtg and demoed a really good car? You sound desperately in need of a quality demo.....like, in real life.

:edit: so I see you have heard the magic bus....hmmm, supposed to have great bass in that thing......is this the only demo you've ever had?


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

claydo said:


> Grayson (strakele) won meca modified class finals with a 10 in his floorboard and 2 15s ib in the trunk. I heard that setup right after the win.....and it was sweet. I'm pretty sure he's still running a simular setup......



I'm curious how this is different than a pair of 8s as midbasses playing down to 40hz with a 15 to cover the 20-40 range?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

benny z said:


> I'm curious how this is different than a pair of 8s as midbasses playing down to 40hz with a 15 to cover the 20-40 range?


He had 6.5 midbasses in the doors at the time......and it was well tuned and seriously dynamic. Not sure if it offered a big advantage over a more common setup, but it sounded nice. Just the only example I knew to offer seafish of this type of system.......and, well, he did win that year. He's stuck with that layout too....the two sub systems anyways..........but I haven't heard his car in several years.

Oh, and I'll add it was the best "tweeterless" setup I've ever heard. Probably the only one I could have lived with......after I added a set of tweets.....lmao


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

claydo said:


> Dude, you really, really need to get out more......have you ever been to an event or gtg and demoed a really good car? You sound desperately in need of a quality demo.....like, in real life.



:laugh::laugh:

Maybe they will sound better through YouTube


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Alrojoca said:


> :laugh::laugh:
> 
> Maybe they will sound better through YouTube


Awww....I ain't gonna pick on him anymore, but that whole debate is rather absurd.....


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

benny z said:


> O. M. G.
> 
> Stop! Lmao


Lololol 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

claydo said:


> Dude, you really, really need to get out more......have you ever been to an event or gtg and demoed a really good car? You sound desperately in need of a quality demo.....like, in real life.
> 
> :edit: so I see you have heard the magic bus....hmmm, supposed to have great bass in that thing......is this the only demo you've ever had?


I know he went to a Syracuse event and demod my car. I'm starting to think he's messing with us lol

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> I know he went to a Syracuse event and demod my car. I'm starting to think he's messing with us lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Hmmmm, could be as hard as he's been pushing the whole youtube thing.....


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

......and since I posted here about all the back and forth....I guess I should give my thoughts to the op about 2 vs 3 way. For me three way is a volume thing......to separate the vocals and majority of instruments from my midbass speakers, so I can hammer on them without fookin up midrange clarity....lol. A two way can do it, but not as good as a dedicated midrange....imho, of course.


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## truckguy (Sep 2, 2013)

claydo said:


> ......and since I posted here about all the back and forth....I guess I should give my thoughts to the op about 2 vs 3 way. For me three way is a volume thing......to separate the vocals and majority of instruments from my midbass speakers, so I can hammer on them without fookin up midrange clarity....lol. A two way can do it, but not as good as a dedicated midrange....imho, of course.


This is exactly why I want to switch to a 3 way or a tweeterless 2way. My mids are really low in my doors and would love to get more midrange above the dash. Also free up my mids to let them do what they are supposed to do!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

claydo said:


> Dude, you really, really need to get out more......have you ever been to an event or gtg and demoed a really good car? You sound desperately in need of a quality demo.....like, in real life.
> 
> :edit: so I see you have heard the magic bus....hmmm, supposed to have great bass in that thing......is this the only demo you've ever had?


They only have SPL comps here in my state, which I went to this summer. Not many people are into SQ car audio. Not like in the late 1980's- early 2000's. I've listened to many systems, both back then and now. Not that many have impressed me. 

Do I get out? Dude.....At the end of May, I flew to California from Boston just to demo the Magic bus and to attend the High End Audio Show - T.H.E Show in Newport Beach. There was one Tesla that was at the show that had a custom stereo in it. It was a descent system.

Just last month, I attended the New York Audio Show, and met SkizeR and listened to his car. His car is tuned pretty good, but it can only sound so good in such a compact space. Not his fault, he has a small car. 

Between these two shows, I have demoed high end systems from all over the world. It seems like the european crowd has the best stuff and are still into quality as we use to be here in the us back in the day.

95% of the systems I've heard at these two shows were un-impressive to me.
Most audiophiles like listening to a smooth and buttery system, which to me sounds dull and lifeless and boring. 

About 5% of the systems I've heard are Alive, Dynamic and life-like, which is what I prefer. Most of them are European.

A couple months ago, went to the last Iasca event in Brewerton, NY which was about an 8+ hour drive. There was a very small turn out. I demoed all the cars. 

There was one car that actually impressed me. Mike ( Goodstuff ) had his girlfriends car there a subaru. His system to me sounded best. And he had a set of tang-bang tweeters duct taped to the dash. I liked it a little better than mine. 

So to answer your question, yes I have. Finding a system that impresses me ( as much as benny's does ) is rare.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

claydo said:


> ......and since I posted here about all the back and forth....I guess I should give my thoughts to the op about 2 vs 3 way. For me three way is a volume thing......to separate the vocals and majority of instruments from my midbass speakers, so I can hammer on them without fookin up midrange clarity....lol. A two way can do it, but not as good as a dedicated midrange....imho, of course.


My system is fully active, 5 way system.

All six front stage drivers on axis and in front of me.

1" Tweets with 250 Watts and 5 1/4" midrange at ear level 100 watts per midrange each its own class A amp

10" mid bases in front corners above windshield - sealed boxes. 80-300 Htz
600 watts.

two 12" subs between seats sealed boxes. 40-80 Htz 1000 Watts

two 15" subs 20 - 40 Htz sealed boxes. 600 Watts above my head and passenger head.

Sounds really good, but I'm not good at tuning. Could sound much better. I did some T/A and tweeked some frequencies.

It's a very loud, Dynamic stereo, but very clear. Brian ( Turbo5supra ) has listened to it.

Frequency response from 25 - 100 is ruler flat.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> They only have SPL comps here in my state, which I went to this summer. Not many people are into SQ car audio. Not like in the late 1980's- early 2000's. I've listened to many systems, both back then and now. Not that many have impressed me.
> 
> Do I get out? Dude.....At the end of May, I flew to California from Boston just to demo the Magic bus and to attend the High End Audio Show - T.H.E Show in Newport Beach. There was one Tesla that was at the show that had a custom stereo in it. It was a descent system.
> 
> ...


In terms of my car being small and nothing I can do.. tell me about it lol. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> In terms of my car being small and nothing I can do.. tell me about it lol.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


You have it tuned perfectly. IMO you have taken that system and gone pretty much as far as you can with it. It sounds very good. Your only limitation is the size of the interior. I had the same issue with my 1992 Nissan 240 SX.

That same system installed in a larger vehicle would be very impressive.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

High Resolution Audio said:


> So to answer your question, yes I have. Finding a system that impresses me ( as much as benny's does ) is rare.


No knock at all against Benny's, but have you listened live or only over the internet?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

You guys have all the fun while my ass is sleeping



High Resolution Audio said:


> My system is fully active, 5 way system.
> 
> All six front stage drivers on axis and in front of me.
> 
> ...


Wow....subs above your head how do you manage that? 20-30 to ~200 should be a 12-15db roll off due to the ears sensitivity. A flat response between 25-100 means you're not getting sufficient impact below ~60 hz. Do you have pics of your install?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Niebur3 said:


> No knock at all against Benny's, but have you listened live or only over the internet?


Only over the internet. On headphones and then again through my Vehicle's audio system. 

But I can hear, unlike some others that think its impossible to judge sound via a recording. 

Playing his second you-tube video over my system, and recalling what his system sounded like over my headphones, I could hear the tone flaws in my system. 

But I have bat - like hearing. lol


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> You guys have all the fun while my ass is sleeping
> 
> 
> 
> Wow....subs above your head how do you manage that? 20-30 to ~200 should be a 12-15db roll off due to the ears sensitivity. A flat response between 25-100 means you're not getting sufficient impact below ~60 hz. Do you have pics of your install?


I don't understand that. I have incredible low bass. Here is a link to my build log. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...58-1990-gmc-ps6500-build-log-restoration.html


There is a link to a crappy phone video at the end. Listen with a good set of headphones. The low bass is there. Mostly you had hear the 31.5 as the phone was closest to the 15's.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Only over the internet. On headphones and then again through my Vehicle's audio system.
> 
> But I can hear, unlike some others that think its impossible to judge sound via a recording.
> 
> ...


Doesn't matter how good your hearing is. My last hearing test, I scored perfect, which the doctor said very few ever do. This has nothing to do with hearing. You aren't hearing the system. You are hearing a recording of the system. 2 completely different things. It is without a doubt that any car will sound very different in person than a recording of it over the internet. 

And furthermore, if all you are listening for is tonality, because it would be impossible to listen for anything else, then you are missing a HUGE part of what a properly tuned system is supposed to represent.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Only over the internet. On headphones and then again through my Vehicle's audio system.
> 
> But I can hear, unlike some others that think its impossible to judge sound via a recording.
> 
> ...


Hearing Benny's vid through headphones is kinda like skating at the edges and periphery, but you're still in the rink. Now when you hear it in your car, you're no longer hearing the quality of his tune unless, _your cars_ timing and response is set up properly (which you have said is iffy). You don't need bat ears to tell the difference.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Niebur3 said:


> Doesn't matter how good your hearing is. My last hearing test, I scored perfect, which the doctor said very few ever do. This has nothing to do with hearing. You aren't hearing the system. You are hearing a recording of the system. 2 completely different things. It is without a doubt that any car will sound very different in person than a recording of it over the internet.
> 
> And furthermore, if all you are listening for is tonality, because it would be impossible to listen for anything else, then you are missing a HUGE part of what a properly tuned system is supposed to represent.


Tonality is what I am most concerned with. Of course you cant hear how a system stages over a recording.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> Hearing Benny's vid through headphones is kinda like skating at the edges and periphery, but you're still in the rink. Now when you hear it in your car, you're no longer hearing the quality of his tune unless, _your cars_ timing and response is set up properly (which you have said is iffy). You don't need bat ears to tell the difference.


His recording sounds like a CD on my system.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Niebur3 said:


> Doesn't matter how good your hearing is. My last hearing test, I scored perfect, which the doctor said very few ever do. This has nothing to do with hearing. You aren't hearing the system. You are hearing a recording of the system. 2 completely different things. It is without a doubt that any car will sound very different in person than a recording of it over the internet.
> 
> And furthermore, if all you are listening for is tonality, because it would be impossible to listen for anything else, then you are missing a HUGE part of what a properly tuned system is supposed to represent.


I wasn't saying my hearing is perfect, because my top range of hearing is partially gone. But I can hear pitch and tell when a singer is flat or sharp or timing is off. I really know how to listen to music and can interpolate as to what something may sound like live and in person. 

I've done it with home audio speakers too. Vivid Giya 3, I heard on a video and then again at THE Show in Newport. They were amazing to me on the video and amazing to me in person. I don't understand why the concept of getting a pretty good idea of what something would sound like live is so foreign to some of you. 

Yes, I agree you cannot judge staging. Big woop!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Usually a system that has exceptional tonality has very good staging. It actually happens most of the time.

The person that knows how to get great tonality from a speaker system knows how to locate drivers for timing purposes. 

A person that can adjust for perfect tonality can usually determine best speaker placement location. 

They all go hand in hand.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I don't understand that. I have incredible low bass. Here is a link to my build log.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...58-1990-gmc-ps6500-build-log-restoration.html
> 
> ...


Wow…what a weird AND wonderful build…LOVING the turntable!!!


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## Regus (Feb 1, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> My system is fully active, 5 way system.
> 
> All six front stage drivers on axis and in front of me.
> 
> ...


Out of interest, have you ever done an A/B comparison between the 15" subs playing 20-40 Hz and the 12" subs playing 40-80Hz and just the 15"subs paying 20-80Hz?

For the record, I think of you've got the room then there's something to be said for going 4-way or 5-way - it's probably not feasible in most cars, although I remember seeing an Alpine Civic from a few years back that went this route so it's not unheard of (although maybe not so much for SQ purists).


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

Having listened to Benny's and your systems... Benny's was detailed and technical but slightly laid back... Yours was fun and new- it had some staging and tonal issues but was new and unusual for me. The stage height started above the dash and went up- which is backwards of what I typically run into. I could see yours being a very solid performer given the space you have to work with but in my personal opinion it is far too complicated at the moment- simplify and regroup and I feel you will be miles ahead in no time at all.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

seafish said:


> Wow…what a weird AND wonderful build…LOVING the turntable!!!


Thanks.. Just got a new Russian tube for the pre-amp. The turntable is in the house right now. Tried switching tubes and the music got more detailed and clean. Noticeable difference. 

I can't wait to hear it in on the Truck system. The truck system has a quality that the home system doesn't. Hard to put into words. 

When purchasing the tube pre-amp at a audio video store, the salesman auditioned the truck. We took the same CD and back - to - back listened to it on a system in the store. 

Even he said that comparing the two systems, the one in the store is missing something. For Me, It's kind of hard to listen to music on a home system now without having that feeling that I'm missing out. And I have a pretty good home system.

In the Truck, you are engaged in the music. The speakers disappear and you become one with the music. Almost kind of like you have headphones on.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

turbo5upra said:


> Having listened to Benny's and your systems... Benny's was detailed and technical but slightly laid back... Yours was fun and new- it had some staging and tonal issues but was new and unusual for me. The stage height started above the dash and went up- which is backwards of what I typically run into. I could see yours being a very solid performer given the space you have to work with but in my personal opinion it is far too complicated at the moment- simplify and regroup and I feel you will be miles ahead in no time at all.


On the way home to and from the Syracuse, I had the stereo blasting the whole way up and back 16 hours of pounding. When I got home i found that the 12" subs had blown voice coils. 

So since then, I have used the 15" to play from 20-80 and I have the 10" bid- bases playing from 80 - 300. 

Problem I have is the head unit is mounted to the ceiling and If I turn the subs up too much, the CD skips due to the vibrations. I didn't have this problem when the 15"'s were playing 20-40


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Regus said:


> Out of interest, have you ever done an A/B comparison between the 15" subs playing 20-40 Hz and the 12" subs playing 40-80Hz and just the 15"subs paying 20-80Hz?
> 
> For the record, I think of you've got the room then there's something to be said for going 4-way or 5-way - it's probably not feasible in most cars, although I remember seeing an Alpine Civic from a few years back that went this route so it's not unheard of (although maybe not so much for SQ purists).


The 12's blew so I am running the 15's at 20-80. I can't turn up the system as the CD player will skip. The head unit is mounted in an enclosure that is mounted to the ceiling. 

Didn't have that issue when the 15's were just playing 20-40


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Gotta love some 10" midbasses, just wish I could find someplace for em in my car other than the doors....lol.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Problem I have is the head unit is mounted to the ceiling and If I turn the subs up too much, the CD skips due to the vibrations. I didn't have this problem when the 15"'s were playing 20-40


You can simply use aircraft cable to suspend only the cd player from the rack that is already ceiling mounted. The cable will isolate the CD mech from truck born vibrations. Or alternatively do the same with the subwoofer, whichever is easier, probably the cd player.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

claydo said:


> Gotta love some 10" midbasses, just wish I could find someplace for em in my car other than the doors....lol.


The 10" mid- basses I'm using have a very thick and heavy cone and surround. I can't hear the details of the bass strings vibrating. 

i was thinking of trying the Beyma 10G40 as they are used in Bass Guitar Amps. and got really good reviews. 

Or downsize to an 8"?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

seafish said:


> You can simply use aircraft cable to suspend only the cd player from the rack that is already ceiling mounted. The cable will isolate the CD mech from truck born vibrations. Or alternatively do the same with the subwoofer, whichever is easier, probably the cd player.


Really great Idea! I'm going to try that out this weekend. Thanks for the suggestion.

Do you think bunji cords may work better than steel?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

That beyma in a foot and a half ported is supposed to be wicked....lol, sounds like fun. Mine are peerless shallow subs, relatively high qts, nice xmax.....needed something to run somewhat ib in a door....they are pretty nice. I just wish I had room to floor mount them, but my cobalt is tiny.........


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

claydo said:


> That beyma in a foot and a half ported is supposed to be wicked....lol, sounds like fun. Mine are peerless shallow subs, relatively high qts, nice xmax.....needed something to run somewhat ib in a door....they are pretty nice. I just wish I had room to floor mount them, but my cobalt is tiny.........


I just looked at some images of a Cobalt. Nice looking car. I looked at interior images too. You are right about finding room in there for speakers. 

I was thinking of using the Beyma for mid- bass and not subs. or maybe going to 6 1/2's or 8's. An audiophile said that my mid - basses now are slow. I guess because of the size or the heavy cone and surround?


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Can you post some pics of your speaker configuration?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Slow is one of those audiophile jibberish terms for overhang or droning.....you know, when something causes the tone to continue reverberating .......could be a product of the enclosure, tuning, or the environment it's playing in.



Aaaaand yes...my interior is quite cramped. It's also a manual.....severely limiting the footwell space....dammit. Although the turbo and 5 speed is a nice combo....


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> Can you post some pics of your speaker configuration?


Here is a photo of the passenger side.

Sorry its sideways


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

High Res, curious if you just missed my post #178 as you and I posted right at the same time??


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Here is a close up of the mid- tweet combo.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

seafish said:


> High Res, curious if you just missed my post #178 as you and I posted right at the same time??


My reply was post #180

I'm going to try it this weekend.

Do you think bungi cords may work better than aircraft cable?

And thank you very much for the idea!


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## zapcozeff (Dec 17, 2015)

3 way hands down... if done correctly with the right crossover points the sound quality will be at least 100% better. 

I favor Morel and have since 1986. At that time using MDT 30 tweeter, MDM 75 - 3" Dome Mid (discontinued), MW 160 - 6" woofer and at first 2 - Cerwin Vega 12" then Emilar 12" using quantity 4 - Zapco 150 - 2pc amps and a PX and AEX... also the very first Disc Changer made by Sony. Also Audio Control EQL and Epicenter... and lots of those shiny silver discs (I forget what they are called but it was pretty CD-ious hauling them all around) in an 86 Jetta. Now I'm working on a system for my 2014 CR-V (to pick up soccer moms...lol). 

Morel CAT 308 tweeter in dash facing up under the side window defrost vent ... MDM 55 behind a/c vents still allowing for a/c to flow through... custom built Solen crossovers for tw and dm. CAW 638 6" in doors sealed in cylinder MDF enclosure with slot above allowing window to recess about 1" into it so the enclosure can be larger. All are 8 ohm (oh my he's using 8 ohm speaker? I heard they made them but thought it was just a fable)...2 TC Epic10s in sealed in spare tire area (MDF BOX). There is a couple of experimental things I am trying with the enclosures.

Driven by Pioneer DHE 80-PRS, Zapco ASP Q1 (running 3-way), and Zapco Z150.6 (First run 2012 serial number 007). Hope it sounds ok... Johnny Z


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

It might be a good idea to compete or take a judge class just to get more information and perhaps know something new to use when listening afterwards


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

claydo said:


> That beyma in a foot and a half ported is supposed to be wicked....lol, sounds like fun. Mine are peerless shallow subs, relatively high qts, nice xmax.....needed something to run somewhat ib in a door....they are pretty nice. I just wish I had room to floor mount them, but my cobalt is tiny.........


Could you cut them into the wheel wells like Earl Zausmer did in his red BMW? Have you heard of his build. It was famous years ago


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Really not enough room down there at all.....unless I went in the flat part under the pedals....lol. If I went kicks.....it would be a stretch to fit 8s........not to mention I'm a big fan of the dead pedal when storming the backroads......

But, the midbass tuning has been driving me crazy for a while.....not to mention the endless battle against the rattles....so I may end up revisiting the idea even if I have to put my 8s back in......


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> My reply was post #180
> 
> I'm going to try it this weekend.
> 
> ...


LOL…I guess that I missed YOUR reply. 

anyways, bungee cords will work just as well or even better…I only suggested aircraft cable because of the nice quality of your build and paint job……honestly, I figured that if I had said bungee cords, you would just laugh at the idea. Originally, I was thinking to suspend a plain shelf or pocket shelf from the overhead bin that the CD player is already in, that way all your wiring shouldd still reach it. That being said, you could simply experiment with the idea by running bungees or nylon cord underneath the cd player and up to hooks screwed into or holes drilled into the existing bin….so that the cd player sits in the bottom of the "U".

All that being said, eventually you will want to secure in a way that it does NOT become a missile aimed at your (or anyones' for that matter) head in the event of a sudden stop or collision.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> The 12's blew so I am running the 15's at 20-80. I can't turn up the system as the CD player will skip. The head unit is mounted in an enclosure that is mounted to the ceiling.
> 
> Didn't have that issue when the 15's were just playing 20-40


Hmm, with the 12's out of the equation, run the 15's to 50 and run the 8's down to 50. Do you get to choose the slope? If so put everything on 4th order slopes. This should reduce the vibrations while maintaining impact.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I can agree with High Res Audio's comment on a lot of audiophiles liking a buttery smooth system that can sound "dull". I hear it all the time at g2g's but that's a personal preference thing. They are by no means "wrong" and those types of tunes can sound INCREDIBLE when the staging is perfect. Ever since I got professional help at the last NCSQ meet my system has trucked on to the next level. I was simply given the knowledge needed to make it happen in a way that I could comprehend. At the meet in DFW a couple weeks ago people were saying my staging was way above the dash and "almost" too wide. In a wide land yacht like mine stage width out to the big mirrors can be a little unsettling if you're used to a narrow car that stages pillar to pillar and little more. Dynamics are pretty good and I choose NOT to let it roll off on the top end like a lot of people tend to do. I like a little more sizzle on top to add fun factor even if it's not "audiophile correct". The way I look at it is your tune should mirror your personality. I think I've finally found the magic equipment combo to properly represent who I am with the help of a good tune.

As for my favorite systems that I've heard recently, Strakele, Narvarr, captainobvious, and Southsyde are the ones that stick out.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I can agree with High Res Audio's comment on a lot of audiophiles liking a buttery smooth system that can sound "dull". I hear it all the time at g2g's but that's a personal preference thing. They are by no means "wrong" and those types of tunes can sound INCREDIBLE when the staging is perfect. Ever since I got professional help at the last NCSQ meet my system has trucked on to the next level. I was simply given the knowledge needed to make it happen in a way that I could comprehend. At the meet in DFW a couple weeks ago people were saying my staging was way above the dash and "almost" too wide. In a wide land yacht like mine stage width out to the big mirrors can be a little unsettling if you're used to a narrow car that stages pillar to pillar and little more. Dynamics are pretty good and I choose NOT to let it roll off on the top end like a lot of people tend to do. I like a little more sizzle on top to add fun factor even if it's not "audiophile correct". The way I look at it is your tune should mirror your personality. I think I've finally found the magic equipment combo to properly represent who I am with the help of a good tune.
> 
> As for my favorite systems that I've heard recently, Strakele, Narvarr, captainobvious, and Southsyde are the ones that stick out.


Imho the tonality issue comes down to how you set the two octaves from 5-20khz on your eq. Think of spectral balance for a bit, the balance between the lows / mids and highs. When the balance is right and recording contains some bite you should hear and feel that bite of brass instruments or the bass guitar, other times you should hear a very open, live sound. When you open up at the very top the vocals lose that last bit of pinched/stretched quality. 

The dynamics are also way better this way. Beyond 10 you're increasingly starting to cut only to balance L/R you are more or less progressively cutting levels less and less as you go towards 20, where you're only balancing a bit for L/R. If you don't tune by ear and you read this far you're probably thinking WTF, about now.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

sqnut said:


> you don't tune by ear and you read this far you're probably thinking WTF, about now.



This is all I need to know.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

seafish said:


> LOL…I guess that I missed YOUR reply.
> 
> anyways, bungee cords will work just as well or even better…I only suggested aircraft cable because of the nice quality of your build and paint job……honestly, I figured that if I had said bungee cords, you would just laugh at the idea. Originally, I was thinking to suspend a plain shelf or pocket shelf from the overhead bin that the CD player is already in, that way all your wiring shouldd still reach it. That being said, you could simply experiment with the idea by running bungees or nylon cord underneath the cd player and up to hooks screwed into or holes drilled into the existing bin….so that the cd player sits in the bottom of the "U".
> 
> All that being said, eventually you will want to secure in a way that it does NOT become a missile aimed at your (or anyones' for that matter) head in the event of a sudden stop or collision.


My plan was to build an enclosure for the Alpine F1 head unit and screen and mount it to the dashboard in the center of the dash at an angle towards the driver. ( once I learned about the CD skipping thing ) The ergonomics of operating the unit will be much better and I hope the issue of skipping CD will resolve itself. 

I'm not opposed to aircraft cable, as for now until I get the dash mounted enclosure designed and built, I just was concerned the transfer of vibration via steel cable as opposed to something may elastic may work better.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I just looked at some images of a Cobalt. Nice looking car. I looked at interior images too. You are right about finding room in there for speakers.
> 
> I was thinking of using the Beyma for mid- bass and not subs. or maybe going to 6 1/2's or 8's. An audiophile said that my mid - basses now are slow. I guess because of the size or the heavy cone and surround?



Again , and I can't stress it enough , the Beyma's are amazing. 
Yes it's 400$ for two speakers , but gosh dam they get the job done


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> An audiophile said that my mid - basses now are slow. I guess because of the size or the heavy cone and surround?


gotta watch out for those audiophiles. theyre crazy lol. what are you using now for a midbass? its almost always an issue outside of the speaker itself. im guessing hes a "home audiophile" so he wouldnt realize what problems a car introduces when trying to set up a quality system in one


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> Imho the tonality issue comes down to how you set the two octaves from 5-20khz on your eq. Think of spectral balance for a bit, the balance between the lows / mids and highs. When the balance is right and recording contains some bite you should hear and feel that bite of brass instruments or the bass guitar, other times you should hear a very open, live sound. When you open up at the very top the vocals lose that last bit of pinched/stretched quality.
> 
> The dynamics are also way better this way. Beyond 10 you're increasingly starting to cut only to balance L/R you are more or less progressively cutting levels less and less as you go towards 20, where you're only balancing a bit for L/R. If you don't tune by ear and you read this far you're probably thinking WTF, about now.


I've always tuned by ear, and I try and achieve a balanced sound. I do like my upper end opened up, and the harsh frequencies around 2.5K toned back. 

But, it would be nice to get a RTA done and see what my curve really look like. 

On a second note, I changed my amps last night and fed the tweeters with the Class A power, instead of the midrange. Each tweeter has its own 100 Watt amp.

The upper end detail was immediately noticeable. I the attack on the drumsticks hitting the symbols ( for example ) was the first thing I noticed. And with female voices, the "s"s were more pronounced and detailed as close to the edge of sibilance without being so. 

I was listening to the truck with the doors open inside my new garage for the first time ever. I could have sworn that I was listening to live music in a night club. The passenger tweeter and midrange went through the open drivers side door and bounced off a sheetrock wall and back and forth between the wall and truck. The truck was parked at an angle, so that the space between the wall and truck was funnel shaped with the wide part towards the rear of the vehicle.I was standing at the back of the truck in utter amazement.

Then I tried doing something stupid. With a sound pressure level meter, I was curious to see how high she would play without the 1000 watts and 2 12's running. With paper towel in my ears and a hood covering those, I got her up to 117 DB full range. Then I realized that I blew a 25 year old tweeter. Stupid mistake.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

I would not want an opinion of an extreme home audiophile that is used to listen to music in rooms with perfect acoustics and perfect seat positioning, and never really listened to a very good car sound system or experienced a centered stage in car before.





We need to see your youtube video with the new upgrade His Res A


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Alrojoca said:


> I would not want an opinion of an extreme home audiophile that is used to listen to music in rooms with perfect acoustics and perfect seat positioning, and never really listened to a very good car sound system or experienced a centered stage in car before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will have to find a better recording device. The Vinyl video is done with just an i-Phone. That particular video is not an accurate representation of how my system sounds in person due to the recording quality. With the I-Phone video, the bass is overpowering the midrange and high-end. 

I have a Cannon camera that is about 10 years old. The camera itself takes amazing photos, but I'm not sure about the audio side of it. I might give it a try and see how well it captures audio. In a best case scenario, it would capture audio like benny z's camera does.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

benny z said:


> This is all I need to know.


I had a print out of that in my glove box for a long time . After a while though it got kinda imprinted in the brain, and more importantly I got better at picking stuff instinctively, by the way things sounded. As you well know, beyond the chart one develops a strong correlation between the individual frequencies on the eq and what one is hearing......and the ability to call better or worse with every change. This bit is what the scientists struggle with.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

sqnut said:


> Imho the tonality issue comes down to how you set the two octaves from 5-20khz on your eq. Think of spectral balance for a bit, the balance between the lows / mids and highs. When the balance is right and recording contains some bite you should hear and feel that bite of brass instruments or the bass guitar, other times you should hear a very open, live sound. When you open up at the very top the vocals lose that last bit of pinched/stretched quality.
> 
> The dynamics are also way better this way. Beyond 10 you're increasingly starting to cut only to balance L/R you are more or less progressively cutting levels less and less as you go towards 20, where you're only balancing a bit for L/R. If you don't tune by ear and you read this far you're probably thinking WTF, about now.


I tune by ear, and do what feels right. I have a mono 7.9 db cut with a q of 1.0 at 7000hz and a carefully placed cut at 16000 on the left side to get rid of some skewing. That's it from 5k and up. And yes, my tweets really do need that big of a cut at 7k because I'm tuning for the room. Truth be told, I'm not a fan of getting too crazy with the eq. I take care of the room issues and just do a nudge here and there afterwards. The way I'm set up I do have 60 bands of peq at my disposal. I MIGHT be using 1/3 of those bands.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

There is a lot of useful information regarding tuning in the last few posts. 

The chart, for one, and the specific details of one tune regarding the high end tweaks in specific. 

Thanks for all your input, so far, on this thread. I have enjoyed reading about different perspectives.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I tune by ear, and do what feels right. I have a mono 7.9 db cut with a q of 1.0 at 7000hz and a carefully placed cut at 16000 on the left side to get rid of some skewing. That's it from 5k and up. And yes, my tweets really do need that big of a cut at 7k because I'm tuning for the room. Truth be told, I'm not a fan of getting too crazy with the eq. I take care of the room issues and just do a nudge here and there afterwards. The way I'm set up I do have 60 bands of peq at my disposal. I MIGHT be using 1/3 of those bands.


Cuts at 7-8 and 16 are common. How much you use the eq depends on how many defects you're hearing and how far you want to take the sound. In a car you can never correct for the room in any meaningful way without extensive eq. Minimal eq is a bit of a misnomer in a car, ymmv.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> gotta watch out for those audiophiles. theyre crazy lol. what are you using now for a midbass? its almost always an issue outside of the speaker itself. im guessing hes a "home audiophile" so he wouldnt realize what problems a car introduces when trying to set up a quality system in one


I'm using a Boston Acoustics 10" competitor on one side and a Boston Acoustics Pro Series 10.5 on the other. Both share the same exact cone and dust cap, but they have a different basket and magnet. The Cones themselves are very heavy and have a thick plastic feeling. They are made to take up to 1000 watts. They are designed to be a sub-woofer. Maybe that is my issue.

They hit hard with the kick drum and almost sound as if I were listening to real kick drum.

With the bass guitar you can hear tone of the note, but it is very muddy. Can't hear the actual string vibrating.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> With the bass guitar you can hear tone of the note, but it is very muddy. Can't hear the actual string vibrating.


You need TA and eq to clear up the sound.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> You need TA and eq to clear up the sound.


I have the Left tweeter and midrange delayed 2.3 mili-seconds 
I have the Left mid-bass delayed 2.1 mili-seconds

Does this sound about right? 

I can give you measurements from my ears to the drivers?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I can give you measurements from my ears to the drivers?


Yes please. Do you have any eq?


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Here's a prime example of the benefit of a 3-way vs 2-way and reason I want to go that route myself. 


















I'm told this is not uncommon for un-EQ'd door mid response.. These are 6.5" SB17 (NVX) mids.. Very decent and capable mids in a very non-optimum setting. Thus you can see even in a well-treated door, they have issues from 400hz and up but strong in the mid-bass region below that.

In a two-way, I'm crossing them at 2khz, so I must EQ out all that cheddar below 400hz to get a decent curve out of them. Were it a 3-way, I could have the mid handle all that business much much better from 350-400hz and up to a higher than 2khz crossover point.. Thus these door 6.5's would be able to boogie without gutting the life out of their midbass response, and the tweeters as well would be somewhere in the 3-3.5khz region so tweeters as well could sing.

Higher output, less EQ, better output balancing.. Win win win all around.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> Yes please. Do you have any eq?


I hung a roll of tape to the ceiling and positioned the roll at my left ear.

Measurements were as follows:

Left tweeter to left ear : 36 1/2"

left Mid-range to left ear : 36 1/2"

Left Mid-bass to left ear : 26 1/2" to top of surround
28" to bottom of surround

Moved the tape to hang centered on the right ear

Right Tweeter to Right ear : 65"

Right Mid-range to right ear : 65"

Right Mid-bass to right ear : 52" to top of surround
56" to bottom of surround

I adjusted the crossovers as you suggested

15" subs 20-60
10" mid bass 60-300
5" Midrange 300 - 3500
1" tweeters 3500 -

I'll check the EQ now


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> Yes please. Do you have any eq?


As far as I can tell:

100 Htz +1 1.0
400 Htz +4 1.0
1.6 Htz +2 1.0
5 Khz +1 1.0

Its hard to tell exactly as the interface is not user friendly.

here is a photo.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I hung a roll of tape to the ceiling and positioned the roll at my left ear.
> 
> Measurements were as follows:
> 
> ...


what about distance of subs?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

If the subs are less than 65" from you, we'll just factor in the delay on the subs once you give the measurements. Meanwhile try these settngs

Left Tweet: 2.1 m/s
Left mid: 2.1 m/s
Left Mid bass: 2.85 m/s

Right Tweet: 0 m/s
Right Mid: 0 m/s
Right Mid Bass: 0.95 m/s


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

sqnut said:


> If the subs are less than 65" from you, we'll just factor in the delay on the subs once you give the measurements. Meanwhile try these settngs
> 
> Left Tweet: 2.1 m/s
> Left mid: 2.1 m/s
> ...


That's the beauty of the Helix DSP tool.. I group the mains together so adjustments are relative to all drivers after their delays are applied to dial them all in, then extend the whole stage out until it matches up with the sub in phase and timed pretty well, as the sub is the farthest driver. So while the Helix thinks my sub is essentially in the car behind me, because of I assume low-pass phase-shift etc, it arrives on time with the front-stage, and in phase with the mids. 

May not be the ideal optimal or most correct way to to do it, but sure seems to get it done. I typically do it by the 180 phase shift at the sub and tuning to the audible point where sub and mids are completely out of phase 180 degrees, then flip the phase back to zero and bam, it's in the dash.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> If the subs are less than 65" from you, we'll just factor in the delay on the subs once you give the measurements. Meanwhile try these settngs
> 
> Left Tweet: 2.1 m/s
> Left mid: 2.1 m/s
> ...


I had dead batteries this morning. I had to put new ones in so all the settings in the memory reset.

I put the time correction that you gave me and the system sounds more coherent. The subs are playing mono, right now. 

They are about 17" and 53" from left and right ears. If you think that they would sound better in stereo, I can put an amp on each one. I have a couple spare JL 600/1 amps. 

The voice got a little more centered. Made an improvement for sure. Thanks for the tips.

EQ is now flat again.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Babs said:


> That's the beauty of the Helix DSP tool.. I group the mains together so adjustments are relative to all drivers after their delays are applied to dial them all in, then extend the whole stage out until it matches up with the sub in phase and timed pretty well, as the sub is the farthest driver. So while the Helix thinks my sub is essentially in the car behind me, because of I assume low-pass phase-shift etc, it arrives on time with the front-stage, and in phase with the mids.
> 
> May not be the ideal optimal or most correct way to to do it, but sure seems to get it done. I typically do it by the 180 phase shift at the sub and tuning to the audible point where sub and mids are completely out of phase 180 degrees, then flip the phase back to zero and bam, it's in the dash.



My plan is to use the Helix DSP Pro in the brand new build in the 2016 Ford E-450 Cutaway van. I kind of wanted to go with old school components and gear in this old truck (1990.) 

And then get all new components for the New truck.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I had dead batteries this morning. I had to put new ones in so all the settings in the memory reset.
> 
> I put the time correction that you gave me and the system sounds more coherent. The subs are playing mono, right now.
> 
> ...


If both subs are on one amp channel then you can't TA each sub separately. There isn't any stereo information down here, but putting the subs on separate channels will allow you time both for matching arrival times.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

High Resolution Audio said:


> EQ is now flat again.


i think i inferred from one of your images that you *don't* have separate left/right eq...correct?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> If both subs are on one amp channel then you can't TA each sub separately. There isn't any stereo information down here, but putting the subs on separate channels will allow you time both for matching arrival times.


I can't believe how much better the system sounds now that I'm sending the right frequencies to the appropriate drivers and have the time alignment better tweaked. 

I can describe the sound now as more tight and cohesive is the only words that come to mind. I can now hear the bass guitar strings vibrating more. The impact from the drums hits me at the same time from both sides and gets quiet simultaneously. Really neat to have this system dialed in better.

Again, I thank you for helping me with the tuning. Even with the EQ flat the tone sounds great. I no longer have the nasal male voices. 

I would like to separate the Subs to stereo, because with all of these time alignment improvements, I might as well !!!

Im going to put an amp on each sub and separate them into stereo. I have two spare JL 600/1.

Could you please give me the correct T/A figures for the subs?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> i think i inferred from one of your images that you *don't* have separate left/right eq...correct?


That is correct. I just looked into the owners manual and I only have EQ for both channels simultaneously. 

But I do have the Alpine F1 Status system, on standby, which has all of that. I can't get the software working as I'm not that good with computers.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

that's a shame.

i'm not sure how much better you'll get it without being able to left/right frequency match the mains.

getting time alignment set correctly gets everything in phase and gets things in the ballpark. but left/right frequency centering everything is what creates a pinpoint image.

get the helix running.


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## Regus (Feb 1, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I can't believe how much better the system sounds now that I'm sending the right frequencies to the appropriate drivers and have the time alignment better tweaked.
> 
> I can describe the sound now as more tight and cohesive is the only words that come to mind. I can now hear the bass guitar strings vibrating more. The impact from the drums hits me at the same time from both sides and gets quiet simultaneously. Really neat to have this system dialed in better.
> 
> ...


I'm probably stating the obvious here, but it sounds to me that your comment about the strings vibrating is referring to harmonics at multiples of the fundamental frequency which the bass guitar is playing - same thing with the kick drums, where a lot of the impact is at a higher frequency than people expect it to be. As you've noted, having everything happening at the right time as regards arrival at your listening position makes all the difference.

Really happy to see how this is working for you and only slightly jealous that you have room for all those sub's up front!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> that's a shame.
> 
> i'm not sure how much better you'll get it without being able to left/right frequency match the mains.
> 
> ...


I do not have the Helix yet. That is for project # 2 

But I do have the Alpine F#1 that has 31 Bands of EQ for each driver. I can't yet figure out how to get it working. 

Software installation driver was bad, but software worked. 

Got correct driver, but software didn't work.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Regus said:


> I'm probably stating the obvious here, but it sounds to me that your comment about the strings vibrating is referring to harmonics at multiples of the fundamental frequency which the bass guitar is playing - same thing with the kick drums, where a lot of the impact is at a higher frequency than people expect it to be. As you've noted, having everything happening at the right time as regards arrival at your listening position makes all the difference.
> 
> Really happy to see how this is working for you and only slightly jealous that you have room for all those sub's up front!


Thanks so much for the nice comment. Having everything on axis is a great help as well. If I could give you some extra room, I would. lol


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Could you please give me the correct T/A figures for the subs?


Left Sub: 3.55 m/s
Right Sub : 0.88 m/s

Also as suggested try and see if you can get the F1 up and running L/R eq will make a big difference. Download the 1/3 oct PN tracks and I will help you set up the L/R (at least get it in the ballpark).


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> Left Sub: 3.55 m/s
> Right Sub : 0.88 m/s
> 
> Also as suggested try and see if you can get the F1 up and running L/R eq will make a big difference. Download the 1/3 oct PN tracks and I will help you set up the L/R (at least get it in the ballpark).


Thanks again. In the next few days, I will separate the subs and input time alignment for the subs.

You have motivated me to get the F#1 up and running. 

I have to ask my brother-in-law to help me as he is a computer genius. It may take some time. I have to bring all the gear to his house which is tiny and 30 min away. I have it wired on the back bench. I'll have to get a sheet of plywood and mount everything and bring it over. 

I have a pink noise test tone CD that has the following frequencies:

25
31.5
40
50 
63
80 
100
125
160
200
250
315
400
500
630
800
1K
1.2K
1.6K
2K
2.5K
3.1K
4K
5K
6.3K
8K
10K
12.5K
16K
20K

Is this 1/3 Octave?

Or, better question....Will this test CD work to do what is needed?

I have a Radio Shack Sound Pressure Level meter.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Thanks again. In the next few days, I will separate the subs and input time alignment for the subs.
> 
> You have motivated me to get the F#1 up and running.
> 
> ...


didnt i give you a cd with the 1/3 octave pink noise tracks/ or did i give that to someone else?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> didnt i give you a cd with the 1/3 octave pink noise tracks/ or did i give that to someone else?


That must have been someone else. The one I have I got from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ffield test&qid=1450749800&ref_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

This just gave me a thought. Sq nut close your ears. With regards to the rta feature of the helix, I'm wondering if it might make the most sense to start with one side to match the baseline curve as much as possible. Then copy that curve as the new target curve and match the other side directly to it. Might work out to be a closer match than trying to tune each side to the starting target curve. 

Then verify with the band isolated pink noise, adjust as necessary, and link the two. 

From there, once linked, tune the overall curve by ear. 

Hmmm.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> That must have been someone else. The one I have I got from Amazon:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ffield test&qid=1450749800&ref_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2


ahh. if you want, PM me your email and i can send a bunch of test tones and whatnot


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Thanks again. In the next few days, I will separate the subs and input time alignment for the subs.
> 
> You have motivated me to get the F#1 up and running.
> 
> ...


Yes it is 1/3 oct and what we need. We can actually do the L/R balance w/o the spl meter and just use the meter to dial in the base curve.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> ahh. if you want, PM me your email and i can send a bunch of test tones and whatnot


Thank you very much for the offer, the problem is I use a Mac. 

I had to purchase a ****ty old laptop PC to be able to run the software for the F#1. 

I don't really even know how to use a PC LOL!

I had one about 15 years ago. It was too complicated and I spent most of my time figuring out how to fix the bugs and by the time I got that done, I forgot what I was trying to accomplish in the first place.

I'm wicked old school. Very Personal Computer Illiterate. And just know my way around my Mac to just get by. 

I don't even know how to do multiple "quotes" in one reply on this forum. Lol

But the test CD I have does have 1/3 octave test tones on it.

New question. If I wanted to record in high sound quality a recording of my system, In order to get really good sound quality, can I use my I phone with a high quality external microphone? 

My Cannon Camera has no input for external Microphone.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Thank you very much for the offer, the problem is I use a Mac.
> 
> I had to purchase a ****ty old laptop PC to be able to run the software for the F#1.
> 
> ...


i guess but there arent really any good mics out there that are powered and have a 3.5mm connector. usually professional mics are XLR. either way, youtube is going to compress the piss out of it. vimeo would be a better option, but still not ideal. the whole situation isnt ideal


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

How are we still on the video subject.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

benny z said:


> How are we still on the video subject.


i have no idea


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Lol!

But srsly, think this is any decent? Tempted to try it out. 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/search?N=11009303&InitialSearch=yes&sts=pi


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> How are we still on the video subject.


Post # 202 

I thought after I finished installing the F#1 and doing all the recommended EQ ing and tuning, that I would record a video and share it? Is that a stupid idea? 

You did it, and I thoroughly enjoyed it..........


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

benny z said:


> Lol!
> 
> But srsly, think this is any decent? Tempted to try it out.
> 
> Tascam TM-2X Stereo XY Condenser DSLR Microphone TM-2X B&H Photo


no idea. its all a gamble until you know its frequency response and its ability to separate left and right.

maybe a binaural mic might be better

Stereo & Specialty Mics | B&H Photo Video


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> You did it, and I thoroughly enjoyed it..........


he did it as a joke.. are you not seeing that?


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> he did it as a joke.. are you not seeing that?


The facebook sight was a joke and it was pretty funny. However, the two video recordings he made and posted had terrific sound quality. 

What about this mike?:

Apogee MiC 96k | Sweetwater.com


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> The facebook sight was a joke and it was pretty funny. However, the two video recordings he made and posted had terrific sound quality.
> 
> What about this mike?:
> 
> Apogee MiC 96k | Sweetwater.com


well you believe youtube videos are a good way to get an idea of how someones car sounds so im not even going to waste my time typing out a response


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> well you believe youtube videos are a good way to get an idea of how someones car sounds so im not even going to waste my time typing out a response


So what the hell am I suppose to do when I finish this amazing system? No one around here cares to listen to SQ car audio. Having spent all this time (4 1/2 years and counting ) and energy into this project, it would be nice to share it with people that have the same interest.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

I'd watch it


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> So what the hell am I suppose to do when I finish this amazing system? No one around here cares to listen to SQ car audio. Having spent all this time (4 1/2 years and counting ) and energy into this project, it would be nice to share it with people that have the same interest.


ummmm enjoy it? are you building the car for others or for yourself? 

im in the same boat. 2.5 years and thousands of dollars later (and still not done) and theres probably less than 5 people within driving distance of me who have the slightest idea of what we do and what were into, but who gives a ****. im not building the car for them


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> I'd watch it


Thanks , Ben


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> ummmm enjoy it? are you building the car for others or for yourself?
> 
> im in the same boat. 2.5 years and thousands of dollars later (and still not done) and theres probably less than 5 people within driving distance of me who have the slightest idea of what we do and what were into, but who gives a ****. im not building the car for them


I do enjoy it every day. I use the vehicle for work and I pretty much listen to the system at least 5 days per week probably for a minimum of 1 hour every day. Sometimes 1 1/2 - 2 hours depending how much travel time that day. 

Even more, when I drive to the beach after work and sit in the parking lot for an hour or two. 

You have to admit, that it was fun when I drove to your house just to meet you and give your car a listen.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I do enjoy it every day. I use the vehicle for work and I pretty much listen to the system at least 5 days per week probably for a minimum of 1 hour every day. Sometimes 1 1/2 - 2 hours depending how much travel time that day.
> 
> Even more, when I drive to the beach after work and sit in the parking lot for an hour or two.
> 
> You have to admit, that it was fun when I drove to your house just to meet you and give your car a listen.


it was fun. waking up at that time wasnt fun lol, but yeah, it is fun having others local who you can hang out with and work on each others cars together


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

D'awwwwe! FaceTime me next time!


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

benny z said:


> How are we still on the video subject.





SkizeR said:


> i have no idea


Well.......I'm kinda still interested in the topic.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> So what the hell am I suppose to do when I finish this amazing system? No one around here cares to listen to SQ car audio. Having spent all this time (4 1/2 years and counting ) and energy into this project, it would be nice to share it with people that have the same interest.


I share your pain. Seven years into this hobby and no one around here gives a damn. My wife thinks I'm afflicted by mid life crisis and my neighbours probably think I'm kooky.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

sqnut said:


> ...neighbours probably think I'm kooky.



...as do your forum friends.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

benny z said:


> D'awwwwe! FaceTime me next time!


What exactly is facetime? I know it's a chat thing on idevices, my daughter keeps reminding me of how dumb and old school I am cause I don't use facetime


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> The facebook sight was a joke and it was pretty funny. However, the two video recordings he made and posted had terrific sound quality.
> 
> What about this mike?:
> 
> Apogee MiC 96k | Sweetwater.com


That mic should be good. Before you get to the stage where you use the mic to record music playing in your car, you will need to use the mic with something like REW to chacke you have L/R balanced and to dial in your overall curve. So just ensure you can hook up that mic to your laptop and run it with REW.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> That mic should be good. Before you get to the stage where you use the mic to record music playing in your car, you will need to use the mic with something like REW to chacke you have L/R balanced and to dial in your overall curve. So just ensure you can hook up that mic to your laptop and run it with REW.


hes asking to make youtube videos i think. if thats the case fine, since its a youtube video and its not ideal from the start. but its not a good measurement mic at all


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> ..... but its not a good measurement mic at all


Shows how much I know about mic's. Why don't you recommend a good measuring mic so that he can get started. I'm really, really keen to tune that car....van....truck


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> Shows how much I know about mic's. Why don't you recommend a good measuring mic so that he can get started. I'm really, really keen to tune that car....van....truck


dayton/minidsp clone mic


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

benny z said:


> ...as do your forum friends.


et tu Brute?


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> dayton/minidsp clone mic


So this mic would be a good one to use to calibrate L/R EQ?

https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> That mic should be good. Before you get to the stage where you use the mic to record music playing in your car, you will need to use the mic with something like REW to chacke you have L/R balanced and to dial in your overall curve. So just ensure you can hook up that mic to your laptop and run it with REW.


Forgive me, but what is REW ?


----------



## Alextaastrup (Apr 12, 2014)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Forgive me, but what is REW ?



Room Acoustics Software

REW is free room acoustics analysis software for measuring and analysing room and loudspeaker responses. The audio analysis features of REW help you optimise the acoustics of your listening room, studio or home theater and find the best locations for your speakers, subwoofers and listening position. It includes tools for generating audio test signals; measuring SPL and impedance; measuring frequency and impulse responses; measuring distortion; generating phase, group delay and spectral decay plots, waterfalls, spectrograms and energy-time curves; generating real time analyser (RTA) plots; calculating reverberation times; calculating Thiele-Small parameters; determining the frequencies and decay times of modal resonances; displaying equaliser responses and automatically adjusting the settings of parametric equalisers to counter the effects of room modes and adjust responses to match a target curve.

REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Alextaastrup said:


> Room Acoustics Software
> 
> REW is free room acoustics analysis software for measuring and analysing room and loudspeaker responses. The audio analysis features of REW help you optimise the acoustics of your listening room, studio or home theater and find the best locations for your speakers, subwoofers and listening position. It includes tools for generating audio test signals; measuring SPL and impedance; measuring frequency and impulse responses; measuring distortion; generating phase, group delay and spectral decay plots, waterfalls, spectrograms and energy-time curves; generating real time analyser (RTA) plots; calculating reverberation times; calculating Thiele-Small parameters; determining the frequencies and decay times of modal resonances; displaying equaliser responses and automatically adjusting the settings of parametric equalisers to counter the effects of room modes and adjust responses to match a target curve.
> 
> REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software


Thank you for the link. I've heard the term " Room EQ Wizard " before in the past. It was the acronym that threw me for a loop. 

Now the question is can I use the mac version or is that going to make it more difficult for Sqnut to help me tune?


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

The mac version should be fine. Download it to your mac and see if it opens.


----------



## Alextaastrup (Apr 12, 2014)

You could even find a simplified version for room equalisation designed for PC, MAC and foobar2000, which is called Mathaudioroom EQ. For foobar2000 it is free. It is not so accurate and comprehensive as REW, but can help with some problems. Usefull for them who have carPC. Easy to use. Cuts the peaks over customer generated curve.


----------



## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

benny z said:


> This just gave me a thought. Sq nut close your ears. With regards to the rta feature of the helix, I'm wondering if it might make the most sense to start with one side to match the baseline curve as much as possible. Then copy that curve as the new target curve and match the other side directly to it. Might work out to be a closer match than trying to tune each side to the starting target curve.
> 
> Then verify with the band isolated pink noise, adjust as necessary, and link the two.
> 
> ...


To answer this question.. Yes certainly that's one way to do it. I had this discussion with Hanatsu about that and he eluded to that in a thread discussing how to match one side to another in Room EQ Wizard (REW). It's much much more precise in REW vs Helix RTA, though the RTA has it's merits for integrating within the Helix tool for one-stop-shop of sorts for tuning. However use REW.. It's just too easy.

But essentially yes, what you can do is match one driver, let's say left, to a curve, then match right to left. Or you can simply establish a curve in REW (or Helix RTA) and match both sides individually to the curve. Goal being the same.. Left = Right = Curve 

My setup is a POS old Dell laptop running Helix tool and REW with a UMIK-1 via USB port. Works great except I need an external solution because the old laptop's sound-card is borked so I can't generate sweeps. I'm forced to use pink noise and RTA averaging. Which is quicker so I use it.

So essentially I do this:
1. match left, then right, to the curve
2. verify left AND right together to the curve and EQ where needed
- This will help verify phase and timing.
- Some destructive reflections will still affect this.
3. verify all left stage, then all right stage and EQ where needed
- In phase will equal NO destruction typically in the cross bands
4. verify whole stage and EQ back to the curve

You should end up with a nicely pinpoint image and defined stage.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

^ cool!

will try it both ways tmrw.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

benny z said:


> ^ cool!
> 
> will try it both ways tmrw.


Or you can do what I do and not have to measure anything right till the end, when you're checking for L/R balance and dialing in the overall curve, I just measure to get in the tune by ear ball park.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So today, I separated the subwoofers with one JL Slash 600/1 on each 15" subwoofer.

Then I inputed all the time alignment figures Sqnut gave me into the head unit.

At this point in time, I am flabbergasted with the sound stage. 

I put in some CD's and compared it to Vinyl.

Then, I put on the IASCA competition disc. Holy Sh*$!!!

The soundstage with the orchestra playing was phenomenal. There was a huge increase in both depth and width that just blew my mind. So much air and space around each instrument. I noticed that the stage width was well outside the vehicle and the depth was like I was immersed in the orchestra itself. HUGE STAGE!!!

All I can say is sqnut has given me the best Christmas present that I could ask for. 

There are no words to express my gratitude...........


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Sweet! Merry Christmas!

Could you make a video?

Lmao


----------



## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Now you are ready to compete assuming they allow those big vehicles in SQL categories


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> Sweet! Merry Christmas!
> 
> Could you make a video?
> 
> Lmao


This one's for you, Benny. Make sure you use a good set of headphones!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS8teMaWe2o

Merry Christmas


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Alrojoca said:


> Now you are ready to compete assuming they allow those big vehicles in SQL categories[/QUOTE
> 
> I could, however, I think I might wait until I install the Alpine F#1 system first. The Signal to Noise Ratio on the F#1 unit is 115 DB. The unit I'm using now is 105DB.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> .......All I can say is sqnut has given me the best Christmas present that I could ask for.
> 
> There are no words to express my gratitude...........


Aww!! Merry Christmas and you're very welcome. Just think, we've just kinda dialed in TA and you are blown away. I wonder what will happen if we got L/R and spectral balance right.... Hope you enjoy the holidays with your family.



Alrojoca said:


> Now you are ready to compete assuming they allow those big vehicles in SQL categories


With the right tune his truck has the potential to be an absolute killer in the lanes. Just think how much bigger his room is compared to our sardine cans......HUGE advantage.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> This one's for you, Benny. Make sure you use a good set of headphones!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unfortunately the youtube recordings we make can at BEST only give an _idea_ of tonality, they aren't an accurate representation of the sound in your car. There are *no* staging of imaging cues on these recordings, which is where you've got the jump. Even for tonality, you'd be better off using a decent recording mic and making a lossless audio recording in something like audacity.


----------



## Aldaa (Feb 25, 2015)

High Resolution Audio said:


> This one's for you, Benny. Make sure you use a good set of headphones!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Could I get the name of the first song please?


----------



## Alextaastrup (Apr 12, 2014)

Aldaa said:


> Could I get the name of the first song please?


Andy Narell "Natty Stick"


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Aldaa said:


> Could I get the name of the first song please?


Alextaastrup beat me to the punch, while I was sleeping. lol


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

http://www.shure.com/americas/produ.../mv88-ios-digital-stereo-condenser-microphone

Wonder if this is any good.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> MV88 iOS Digital Stereo Condenser Microphone | Shure Americas
> 
> Wonder if this is any good.


Did you ever get a chance to watch/listen to the video I made for you using my I-phone ? 

Did you use headphones? or play it over your system? lol

My favorite part is the tapping sound of a wood block from 18-19. One can hear a large echo as if the recording was done in a large space.


----------



## Regus (Feb 1, 2011)

Not sure how much it costs or if it's any good but this might be of interest...

RØDE Microphones - i-XY


----------



## Aldaa (Feb 25, 2015)

Alextaastrup said:


> Andy Narell "Natty Stick"


Thank you!



High Resolution Audio said:


> Alextaastrup beat me to the punch, while I was sleeping. lol


Thanks for using this song, it's so good! I love that bass tone so much, and the steel pan sounds great too!


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Did you use headphones? or play it over your system? lol



In my car, with my reference headphones.


----------



## troutspinner (Nov 8, 2013)

After 8 months of a 3-way setup, I have gone back to 2-way and can say that I am truly happy with it.

I have learned that it just comes down to listening preference. My 3-way setup was very detailed and laser focused. Vocals were beautifully centered, instruments dynamic and I could pick where an instrument came from within inches. It was truly a neat listening experience but in the end was just too focused for my tastes.

It is hard to explain but let's say you are at the corner of a live stage and close to the guitarist's amp. You can hear the rest of the musicians but you actually have to "pay attention" to put it together in your brain. I've learned that I really don't like paying attention to music while driving, I just like to rock.

Going back to 2-way gave me the listening experience I wanted and now it just rocks. It is still dynamic enough to hear plucks and breaths from different directions at times but music and vocals are everywhere. I feel like I can just sit back, relax and enjoy a song, not listen to parts and mentally connect them.

Once again, it is just a preference. If I seen this topic 4 months ago, I would have probably preached 3-way but time has made me recognize my real listening preference. So if you like a very detailed experience, 3-way all day long. If you just want to rock, 2-way is very nice.


----------



## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

troutspinner said:


> After 8 months of a 3-way setup, I have gone back to 2-way and can say that I am truly happy with it.
> 
> I have learned that it just comes down to listening preference. My 3-way setup was very detailed and laser focused. Vocals were beautifully centered, instruments dynamic and I could pick where an instrument came from within inches. It was truly a neat listening experience but in the end was just too focused for my tastes.
> 
> ...




Maybe some 8's on the kick panels and some 4's on the pillars besides tweeters and a sub will bring a better 3 way experience.

I would agree that while driving and having to be distracted to be able to listen and enjoy it, could not only an issue for the driver but also the passengers 

Does your 2 way have 6.5's and 1.2" tweeters? 

Location and drivers brands and models?


----------



## troutspinner (Nov 8, 2013)

Alrojoca said:


> Does your 2 way have 6.5's and 1.2" tweeters?
> Location and drivers brands and models?


It is a 2014 Dodge Ram Crew Cab. I am running the 6 1/2" Woofer from a Focal AS set in the front doors, ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004/6020-00 Tweeter in the door sails and Dayton Audio RS75-4 in the dash. For now, I took the Dayton's out of the setup and applied those 2 channels of power to my rear doors that have Focal AC coaxials.


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

benny z said:


> MV88 iOS Digital Stereo Condenser Microphone | Shure Americas
> 
> Wonder if this is any good.


It's probably very good.

But here is one I can highly recommend, though it's not cheap...it's a Stereo USB mic with a built-in USB Audio Interface that you can use with or without its small "breakout/connector box" and it will plug into your iPhone, iPad, Mac, or PC. There are Free iOS recording apps and PC/MAC programs for it. It's the Lewitt DGT-650.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> In my car, with my reference headphones.


Dude, you need to shave.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

troutspinner said:


> After 8 months of a 3-way setup, I have gone back to 2-way and can say that I am truly happy with it.
> 
> I have learned that it just comes down to listening preference. My 3-way setup was very detailed and laser focused. Vocals were beautifully centered, instruments dynamic and I could pick where an instrument came from within inches. It was truly a neat listening experience but in the end was just too focused for my tastes.
> 
> ...


That is a very unique and different perspective. I'm glad that you shared that experience, here.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

troutspinner said:


> After 8 months of a 3-way setup, I have gone back to 2-way and can say that I am truly happy with it.
> 
> I have learned that it just comes down to listening preference. My 3-way setup was very detailed and laser focused. Vocals were beautifully centered, instruments dynamic and I could pick where an instrument came from within inches. It was truly a neat listening experience but in the end was just too focused for my tastes.
> 
> ...


That doesn't sound right, but if you're happy that's all that matters.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

sqnut said:


> That doesn't sound right, but if you're happy that's all that matters.



That is what I was thinking. 

Creating the image isn't something you should have to think about - unless something is off. It happens automatically in your head.

I have had a couple people tell me my car is almost "too focused" - never really understood that.

I've also heard that MECA prefers a less focused image - never competed MECA so just going on what people have told me. *shrug*


----------



## troutspinner (Nov 8, 2013)

benny z said:


> That is what I was thinking.
> 
> Creating the image isn't something you should have to think about - unless something is off. It happens automatically in your head.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I guess if I summed it up, that is exactly what I would say, it is too focused.

I've heard people here say that they want their car to sound like listening to headphones....I guess that is what I prefer. Not $300 headphones mind you, more like $100.


----------



## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

That doesn't make any sense. A few of the most focused cars I've ever heard do extremely well in meca. Kirk Profits car at finals was fantastic in that regard, IMO. Mark's nascar was the most focused its ever been this year. 

Perhaps by focused you mean small? Iasca cars tend to have small images and don't sound natural compared to most meca cars. Granted that is a tad generalization but most people I talk to agree. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## troutspinner (Nov 8, 2013)

pocket5s said:


> That doesn't make any sense. A few of the most focused cars I've ever heard do extremely well in meca. Kirk Profits car at finals was fantastic in that regard, IMO. Mark's nascar was the most focused its ever been this year.
> 
> Perhaps by focused you mean small? Iasca cars tend to have small images and don't sound natural compared to most meca cars. Granted that is a tad generalization but most people I talk to agree.
> 
> ...


My 3-way sounds rather wide and deep. I think if you guys heard it you would be impressed and proceed to tell me that I am crazy. LOL but I prefer to be engulfed in music and not so much up front.

I could see me going back to 3-way once I get a new DSP but rear fill will be a must.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

It's already been said that imaging is something that keeps on improving as you tune for tonal balance and timbrel accuracy. Of course, once you have covered the basics of timing and L/R response and dialed in the base curve. The more you focus on getting it to sound real, the better the imagining gets, and this accuracy and balance comes from tweaking both the eq and the TA, in the smallest possible increments. 

As it sounds more real the imaging keeps improving. So how should it image at the end of it all? Well imagine the upper 2/3 of your windscreen as a pitch black stage. Now imagine the recording has the bassist at the extreme left, the vocalist on an acoustic guitar at centre front, the percussion is placed behind and to the right of the vocalist, and back up vocals and a piano are placed at the right edge of the stage. 

Now when the music is playing you're seeing four spotlights showing the four performers while the rest of the stage stays dark. _You must see the darkness and space separating each performer. If the lights from the spots kinda merge at the periphery, or a whole entity merges with another, you've got L/R balance issues and / or delay issues between L/R *and* it will sound less real._ 

If the vocalist and percussion are going together, you must see the depth between them and with the vocalist under the far edge of your rear view, the drums should be further back and to the right, with the rest of the stage dark and blank. This is pinpoint imaging. But you won't have pinpoint imaging without the accuracy and balance. Tune for one and the other will fall in place.

I think one league preferring pin point imaging while the other leans towards tonality is maybe an mis understanding. What is possible is that one league has higher percentage of points for tonality while the other gives a higher weighting for staging and imaging cues. The comment of a car being too pin point visually, make no sense. Better accuracy and balance and real sound = better imaging and vice versa.


----------



## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

troutspinner said:


> My 3-way sounds rather wide and deep. I think if you guys heard it you would be impressed and proceed to tell me that I am crazy. LOL but I prefer to be engulfed in music and not so much up front.
> 
> I could see me going back to 3-way once I get a new DSP but rear fill will be a must.




Why not keep the 3 way, have a tune for Meca a tune for Iasca, a personal tune, and a 2 way tune also. It could be done with the right processor. 

One thing I would not miss is the rear fill but a 10 ch DSP can fix that


----------



## #1BigMike (Aug 17, 2014)

I am going to sub to this thread. There is to much good info spewing out of here.


----------



## Alextaastrup (Apr 12, 2014)

3 way against 2 way system - it's to my mind a challenge. Both have some good sides...
Just to mention few: Typically used 6,5' speaker below 500Hz has no directivity problems - meaning - easier to install in front doors (angles, etc.). Resonance frequency of mid can be easily kept out of the working range. Scene will be placed higher (especially at the sides).

But nothing is ideal for everybody. Psycho-acoustics and sound perception might play important role here. We listen differently due to a large number of reasons. That is why for some a specific install will be too bright, for some - scene deepness will be missing. It is also depends on our priority.

We could all agree that sound should be reproduced uncoloured. Are you sure that RTA, mic measurements and "the best tuning" can give a feeling that your criterias are fullfiled? First of all - which criteria? Based on emotions? OK, not bad, but it is hard to measure. Statistics is almost useless (famous Floyd Toole articles about evaluation of loudspeakers by professionals and amatures). Just put 100 hundred randomly selected persons in your car and give them chance to evaluate sound in the car. How will you interprate these results? 

Are we just egoists tuning systems only for ourselves? So many questions and they are not even technical...

Regarding recording - you could find some European standards describing how frequency responce should be devided for a recorded music. Are there any restrictions for audio-engineers for further mastering? Are you sure that all the parts were recorded at the same time, in the same room and without further compiling of different parts? Is that was intention of a composer/musicians? Are you happy with the dynamic range of the newest records?

And at last, how will you intend to listen music in your car? While driving or in a garage with the engine switched off? Do you have two sets of tuning parametres for these two cases? Are you still insisting that sound/noise ratio of 115 dB is so important to you? Have you ever measured the noise level in your present car?

Try to think of these things and many more... What we want, what is our goal - to satisfy our ears/brain? Do you know about sound imaging, which your brain should do (and normally does)? How much are you ready to invest for reaching of this goal? Where is a balance between investment and satisfaction? Is your wife supporting you in this? And if yes - until which level?

Tired of reading? OK. Just enjoy music. This should be the GOAL


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## troutspinner (Nov 8, 2013)

Alrojoca said:


> Why not keep the 3 way, have a tune for Meca a tune for Iasca, a personal tune, and a 2 way tune also. It could be done with the right processor.
> 
> One thing I would not miss is the rear fill but a 10 ch DSP can fix that


That is something I would like to do but I would need a new or additional DSP. Time, money and priority.... I need to hit the lottery.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

It must me hard to tune, and more with placement limitations.

Without A pillar modifications, I can put mids on the window sail panels and leave the tweeters on the dash bottom of the A pillars.

Will that work being about 8" apart from each other ? 

Will the order need to be reversed as the common midrange drivers I have seen are placed deeper or on the dash and the tweeters closer to the doors?


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## Alextaastrup (Apr 12, 2014)

Alrojoca said:


> It must me hard to tune, and more with placement limitations.
> 
> Without A pillar modifications, I can put mids on the window sail panels and leave the tweeters on the dash bottom of the A pillars.
> 
> ...


Should not cause problems as soon you are aware of beaming for each driver and know how to avoid its negative effect.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Ok, sounds good , yes the purpose was to fill the range of mid frequencies that the door drivers could not handle properly.


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## TheJesus (Oct 10, 2012)

turbo5upra said:


> A "stock" car can be easily forced into pro in Iasca... Is it common? No... But to expand the market I feel a little better transition between the 2 leagues is needed.


I'm getting the shaft in this regard for IASCA due to owning a SPL competition organization, thus making me an "industry member"despite not really making any real money from it. My build will be an Amateur build (almost Rookie, but I have a DSP) and I have very little experience in SQ, but I will be classed into Pro first show... This will likely encourage me to go to MECA because I can enter Street (strange that they basically have no industry member restrictions in any class, so a fully sponsored build can be in my class, lol).

I tried to bring this to Moe's attention that the Industry Member definition needs an update, but he didn't seem too interested in changing it (I had probably 10+ other SQC competitors on my side on the Facebook post too). Oh well, c'est la vie...


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

TheJesus said:


> I'm getting the shaft in this regard for IASCA due to owning a SPL competition organization, thus making me an "industry member"despite not really making any real money from it. My build will be an Amateur build (almost Rookie, but I have a DSP) and I have very little experience in SQ, but I will be classed into Pro first show... This will likely encourage me to go to MECA because I can enter Street (strange that they basically have no industry member restrictions in any class, so a fully sponsored build can be in my class, lol).
> 
> I tried to bring this to Moe's attention that the Industry Member definition needs an update, but he didn't seem too interested in changing it (I had probably 10+ other SQC competitors on my side on the Facebook post too). Oh well, c'est la vie...


There are industry restrictions in meca, it's called Master class. However, it only applies if you work for a 12v manufacturer, which in your case doesn't appear to apply. 

As for IASCA, yeah that ship moves VERY slowly. Having said that, Pro, Amateur, etc. are all misleading. The class names are a holdover from the old days when they actually meant something. Many of the top competitors in Amateur have been at it for many years, and their cars can compete with pro class cars, they just don't. So don't put much stock in the names of the classes being any indication at all as to the caliber of the cars. Except maybe expert 

In the end it will mostly come down to tuning anyway.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

pocket5s said:


> Many of the top competitors in Amateur have been at it for many years, and their cars can compete with pro class cars, they just don't.


i competed in iasca amateur this year. it was my first year ever competing in any league. i took 4th at finals by one point, and 1st in the 3x event that same weekend. i'll be back next year.


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## TheJesus (Oct 10, 2012)

New IASCA rules came out, now I'm Pro/Am with a Novice class build, lol.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

TheJesus said:


> New IASCA rules came out, now I'm Pro/Am with a Novice class build, lol.


I saw that on Facebook. That sucks 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## TheJesus (Oct 10, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> I saw that on Facebook. That sucks
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Better than Pro I guess, lol.

Sent from my LG-H901 using Tapatalk


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Idk. Pro/Am has a **** ton of competitors. I'd almost rather skip pro/am and go straight to pro. Unless, with the new class and rule structure, we see a lot of amateur and pro/am guys move to pro if they are in quest of the triple crown.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Triple crown is now only available if you are competing two seat. Read the asterisk, it says pro 1 'yes' but only if competing in both pro 1 and pro 2. Pro 2 is basically what Ultimate was. 

The triple crown change is a good thing to some extent. Having a single trophy for all single seat classes when those classes have different judges just never made sense to me. 

And they did away with expert solo. Guess that's their way of getting around the vote that happened at finals concerning expert class also competing in expert solo. A vote that was in the majority, including all the attending judges I might add.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

pocket5s said:


> A vote that was in the majority, including all the attending judges I might add.


heh, you mean that awkward public "raise your hand" vote where everyone kinda looked around to see who was doing what before raising their hand? lol

i was there. i voted the other way. it didn't really matter to me, but i just thought it was a bit unfair to allow that at finals when it hadn't been allowed all season. i know some guys who competed expert solo who would have prepared a 2-seat tune also had they known that was going to be an option.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

it had been allowed during the season


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## niko084 (Dec 16, 2009)

I love 3ways, I just honestly think by the time you have a cone capable of doing solid midbass it's no longer going to be as accurate playing midrange, thus the 3 way setup I prefer.

I'm a 2+ subs guys, I run 4 10" on my home theater (people think I'm nuts *apartment*), they never have to be driven hard and it helps equalize the bass response throughout the room.

More cone volume = less excursion for = SPL

I considered a single 12" for my new car over and over again, pondered a 15", think I've decided on doing 2 12", although I'm not a basshead like I used to be it should provide nice clean bass at low volumes with plenty of daily use SPL capacity.
_____________________
Years ago when I still did this for a living I loved selling people 4-6 cheap subwoofers with moderate amplifier power. It always blew peoples minds what $50-$75 subs and 500watts can do, even better when you blow someone's mind who spent 4x what you did.

Granted, this takes up some space.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

niko084 said:


> I love 3ways, I just honestly think by the time you have a cone capable of doing solid midbass it's no longer going to be as accurate playing midrange, thus the 3 way setup I prefer.


That's an over generalization. There are plenty of two-ways that do very, very well. I can think of 4 right off the top of my head that I've heard. 

There are many large cone drivers that will do midrange just fine, exceptional even. One look at pro-audio drivers will show that. 8, 10, 12 and 15" drivers doing midbass and midrange.


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## niko084 (Dec 16, 2009)

pocket5s said:


> That's an over generalization. There are plenty of two-ways that do very, very well. I can think of 4 right off the top of my head that I've heard.
> 
> There are many large cone drivers that will do midrange just fine, exceptional even. One look at pro-audio drivers will show that. 8, 10, 12 and 15" drivers doing midbass and midrange.


Capable yes, but with great clarity opens more debate, generally speaking the smaller the intended response the more easily/tuned the speaker can be.

Pro-Audio does loud primarily, I'm speaking in terms of sound quality.
(Studio reference gear being another topic, I have some and I feel the same there, granted good 3-way monitors...$$$)

There is a lot of debatable reasoning for either.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

niko084 said:


> Capable yes, but with great clarity opens more debate, generally speaking the smaller the intended response the more easily/tuned the speaker can be.
> 
> Pro-Audio does loud primarily, I'm speaking in terms of sound quality.
> (Studio reference gear being another topic, I have some and I feel the same there, granted good 3-way monitors...$$$)
> ...


You've probably never heard a well tuned 2 way, period.


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## niko084 (Dec 16, 2009)

sqnut said:


> You've probably never heard a well tuned 2 way, period.


That's a *BOLD* comment.
I've been in a number of studios, I have 2 pairs of studio monitors (2ways).

Sounds like we need to agree to disagree, you maybe happy with your 2-ways, I'll keep my 3s. 

I'm simply posting my opinion on the matter, based on my experience, nothing more anyone here can do unless you're a loudspeaker designer and want to go into some details.

Maybe... *YOU* haven't heard a well tuned 3 way.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

niko084 said:


> That's a *BOLD* comment.
> I've been in a number of studios, I have 2 pairs of studio monitors (2ways).
> 
> Sounds like we need to agree to disagree, you maybe happy with your 2-ways, I'll keep my 3s.
> ...


I'm talking about a 2 way + sub *in a car*. Studio monitors are a poor example because by and large they can't play the lowest octave and a half and even more importantly, the romm is totally different. If you think a 2 way can't reproduce sound as accurately as a 3 way in a car due to driver limitations, then you haven't heard a well tuned 2 way in a car.

My statement stands and as already pointed out, your original statement is the bold generalization.


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## niko084 (Dec 16, 2009)

sqnut said:


> I'm talking about a 2 way + sub *in a car*. .


And... if you want the ability to remove that sub and have a full range front stage?



sqnut said:


> Studio monitors are a poor example because by and large they can't play the lowest octave and a half and even more importantly, the romm is totally different..


Yes the room is totally different it's properly dampened, larger, controlled reflections, the point was in rebuttal to the pro-audio comment. Stating that there is a defined difference in sound from one driver to the next, even in reference monitors in properly setup rooms.
(So I've heard good 2-ways, in far better room situations than a street legal drivable car can produce, not to mention while going down the road)

What does the subbass response of a studio monitor have to do with its midrange...



sqnut said:


> If you think a 2 way can't reproduce sound as accurately as a 3 way in a car due to driver limitations, then you haven't heard a well tuned 2 way in a car.


I do think a 2way can reproduce sound as well as a 3 way!
(as far as flat response curves are concerned)

But I'm certain you'll be hard pressed to find a 2way that can produce the bass impact of a kicker midbass 8" and the midrange quality of a morel hybrid 4".

Impossible? Maybe not, but it will certainly limit your driver selection.
I'd be interested if you know of any actually, just for general product knowledge.


I hope that is not too generalized for this generalized topic.
__________
To clear this up again, I in no way at all believe you cannot have good clear wide range sound from a 2way setup.

However there is more to it, you probably know more than I, I'm sure you can see good reasoning in a 3way over a 2way in a given situation.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

niko084 said:


> And... if you want the ability to remove that sub and have a full range front stage?


Not unless you run min 8" or larger woofers in your door / kicks. Here too I could pair that woofer with the 2904 and cross them ~ 1.5 and it's still a killer 2 way




niko084 said:


> (So I've heard good 2-ways, in far better room situations than a street legal drivable car can produce, not to mention while going down the road)


Road noise doesn't care if you're running a 2 way or a 3 way.



niko084 said:


> What does the subbass response of a studio monitor have to do with its midrange...


It has to do with maintaining the overall balance of the recording across 10 octaves.





niko084 said:


> I do think a 2way can reproduce sound as well as a 3 way!
> (as far as flat response curves are concerned)


:Facepalm:  you don't want a flat response in a car, 2 way or 3 way.



niko084 said:


> But I'm certain you'll be hard pressed to find a 2way that can produce the bass impact of a kicker midbass 8" and the midrange quality of a morel hybrid 4".


There are plenty of options for both. 

In a 2 way with a sub, the ability to reproduce 60-100 hz with impact is down to how well integrated the sub is with the woofer with the sub and mids crossed at 50-60ish. It also depends on your overall response in the 300-5 khz and the timing between your sub, mid bass and tweeter.


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## niko084 (Dec 16, 2009)

So what would you recommend for such a solution in a 2 way?
We are off the topic of subwoofers, front stage must handle bass requirements.

I'm trying to be open, you seem locked into the concept that a 2way fits all, I have my doubts but I'm willing to learn if you have something to offer.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

niko084 said:


> So what would you recommend for such a solution in a 2 way?
> We are off the topic of subwoofers, front stage must handle bass requirements.
> 
> I'm trying to be open, you seem locked into the concept that a 2way fits all, I have my doubts but I'm willing to learn if you have something to offer.


personally, a good midrange capable of playing high and a silk/textile tweeter (though i reserve the right to add be to that list until i actually hear/play with a set in a car). i like to keep the midrange out of the tweeter, personally, but that goes against all the "omg beaming" stuff so i'm in a shrinking minority there, apparently.

get the placement right and this type of 2-way setup is proven to perform well.


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## niko084 (Dec 16, 2009)

benny z said:


> personally, a good midrange capable of playing high and a silk/textile tweeter (though i reserve the right to add be to that list until i actually hear/play with a set in a car). i like to keep the midrange out of the tweeter, personally, but that goes against all the "omg beaming" stuff so i'm in a shrinking minority there, apparently.
> 
> get the placement right and this type of 2-way setup is proven to perform well.


My curious part is, what midrange or midbass driver can handle a full sweep at high output? Say... 50hz-2khz while taking 150-200watts?

A smaller, lighter cone is "generally" better at midrange (correct?)
A heavier, larger cone is "generally" better at bass (correct?)
Bass from small drivers requires more excursion, excursion causes distortion (correct?)
---- We all know there is more to it, but these are some basic principles and TTBMK hold fairly firm ----

If this is true, how would it be possible for a 8" or 4" to do "both" jobs equally as well as the other? --- I'm sure there are some engineering marvels out there, some very high end speakers that perform great spans very well, but at what cost? And what do you lose out on?

I have been happy with previous 2 way setups, I've just always preferred the 3 ways that I've encountered. 
I'm on my first 3 way front stage personally and looking to modify it. 1"/4"/8".

I've done a few in others in the past with raving results, adding a 6.5" midbass to a 2way component set in the door. Some of these had separate subs, some didn't.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

niko084 said:


> My curious part is, what midrange or midbass driver can handle a full sweep at high output? Say... 50hz-2khz while taking 150-200watts?
> 
> A smaller, lighter cone is "generally" better at midrange (correct?)
> A heavier, larger cone is "generally" better at bass (correct?)
> ...


I get what you are arguing, but with the addition of more speakers you have other problems to worry about. In a car, when you can't mount all 3 speakers on the same baffle, you really have to worry about level matching, phase issues, and EQ much more than with fewer speakers. As you may know, the theoretical "best" stereo would be a pair of full-range, point source drivers. Unfortunately that isn't possible, so we start adding speakers to break up the bandwidth into more manageable ranges. This allows you to use speakers optimized for that bandwidth, but still causes phase issues. At some point you have to realize that both a 2-way and 3-way front stage are compromises in different areas.

Can a 2-way sound amazing? Yes. Can a 3-way sound terrible? Yes. Which one is better? That isn't a fair question because both have advantages and disadvantages. It's a matter of which combination works best in your situation. Have excellent drivers, install, and DSP might influence a person to compromise in one direction or another.

My point is: Neither 2-way nor 3-way are the ideal, but unfortunately the ideal stereo only exists on paper.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

If you go to hybrid audio's website, under downloads, and check out the guide for the Clarus set, it is chalk full of useful information. I really recommend giving it a read. It is pretty thorough in coverage and the explained concepts are applicable to a lot of installations.


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