# Big 3 Fanatics..... Something to ponder.



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Here's the schematic for the charging system for my civic:










In red I added the "battery to alternator" part of the "3"










Do you see the "penny in the fuse box" here?

Ever thought about that?

Chad


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## elminster (Jan 9, 2007)

you guys make me feel so stupid sometimes


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## LiquidClen (Dec 27, 2005)

chad said:


> Do you see the "penny in the fuse box" here?
> 
> Ever thought about that?
> 
> Chad


Definition please?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

LiquidClen said:


> Definition please?


Fuses used to have a screw in base like a light bulb, Darwin candidates would place a penny in there behind the fuse to complete the circuit when they ran out of fuses or it kept blowing 










Chad


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

I understood the penny reference but am still lost on how it relates to the diagram.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

CMR22 said:


> I understood the penny reference but am still lost on how it relates to the diagram.


What if the battery fuse blows for a good reason?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

i don't see it.


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## circa40 (Jan 20, 2008)

I think all cars have fused alternators, I hope. 

Good point on "what if the fuse blows" Maybe fuse the upgraded alt cable


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## CGG318 (Apr 9, 2007)

circa40 said:


> I think all cars have fused alternators, I hope.
> 
> Good point on "what if the fuse blows" * Maybe fuse the upgraded alt cable*


That's what I was thinking.


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

The big 3 cable in mine is certainly fused but not with the same size fuse as the OEM uses...hence the penny reference.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

My alt->bat is fused for the rating of the wire itself. Now I'm starting to second guess that.


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## jrouter76 (Dec 21, 2005)

chad said:


> Here's the schematic for the charging system for my civic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes I see the shunt(red wire), you will need to fuse it with the same size fuse or a little bigger fuse other than that you make a good point.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

Well, what i'm seeing is you grounded out your battery to your alt, in THAT diagram... you ran from + to the alt ground.... bad mojo...

And IIRC you ALWAYS want to fuse that wire... and the alt "should" be fused with a fusable link..?? Yes?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> Well, what i'm seeing is you grounded out your battery to your alt, in THAT diagram... you ran from + to the alt ground.... bad mojo...
> 
> And IIRC you ALWAYS want to fuse that wire... and the alt "should" be fused with a fusable link..?? Yes?


What in the hell choo talkin' about Willis?


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

IDK...!!!! Loud NOISES....


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

......


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> IDK...!!!! Loud NOISES....


Then rock it


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

yup, wire should be fused.

my dad (gm mechanic for forever) is helping me do mine, and we're putting a fusable link.

and we're only using a *gasp* 8 gauge wire. the reason for it is the factory wiring runs the alt positive through every bit of fuse and relay boxes before it gets back to the battery for charge, so we're just adding a 2nd path so it can get there more directly. it'll be fused and run parallel with the factory wire.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Thumper26 said:


> yup, wire should be fused.
> 
> my dad (gm mechanic for forever) is helping me do mine, and we're putting a fusable link.
> 
> and we're only using a *gasp* 8 gauge wire. the reason for it is the factory wiring runs the alt positive through every bit of fuse and relay boxes before it gets back to the battery for charge, so we're just adding a 2nd path so it can get there more directly. it'll be fused and run parallel with the factory wire.


I just upgraded the factory wiring to 4Ga  Maybe not ideal but certainly stealthy.



















Halfway done


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## Turborusty (Aug 7, 2007)

I've thought about this every time I see pics with a big fat wire directly between the alt. and batt. 


The guys who put a fuse there are helping, but a fuse is not the same a a fusible link, which is what's supposed to be there. it's a safety measure.


I've personally never upgraded my big 3, but plan on it soon with my Durango. I've yet to look into what might be available to fill my needs for a fusible link..........something that will integrate with 4ga cable.

Any ideas?


Turborusty


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## MuTT (Apr 4, 2007)

Mine also uses a fusible link, but the fusible link is matched to the wire it's attached to, so when I ran an extra wire I fused to the size of that wire, if theres a problem with the batt or alt that is bad enough to burn, the fuse is there to protect the wire and not what its running to...so let it burn was my view....its toast anyway.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Are you guys swapping the factory wire or piggy backing it? I just piggy backed it a few years ago with no fuse or link or anything. :blush: 

So am I gonna loose dee beez now or start a fire or somethin?? :blush:


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

piggyback, and fuse that wire accordingly.

if it shorted somehow, things could be bad.


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

The fuseable link made my amps sound more chesty and forward but also tight with a hint of airy.


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## Turborusty (Aug 7, 2007)

CMR22 said:


> The fussy dink made my humps sound more *chesty and hairy*.


Those don't really mix well, now do they?




Turborusty


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

CMR22 said:


> The fuseable link made my amps sound more _*chesty *_and forward but also _*tight *_with a hint of airy.


I need a blueprint and detailed instructions on that!


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## Turborusty (Aug 7, 2007)

I'll peek at chesty pics as well



Turborusty


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

FoxPro5 said:


> I need a blueprint and detailed instructions on that!


To scale.


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## dodgerblue (Jul 14, 2005)

do not rely on fusable links to protect as a fuse ,prior to us building the new at that time chevy impala 4dr for a prototype police build gm sent a one of their ee,s out to help us with some of the initial planning , funny he showed us with a 16 ga fusable link how much current it took to break, it was rediculous , it was about 3 times its rated cap, i wish i could find my notes !we also asked him about the new impalas that were dropshipped by train to our local to build were having problems with the a-c and alt,s seizing , he mentioned gm made the decision to go with 300 deg. instead of the high heat 500 deg. grease in those locations to save pennies per car ,hence the bearings burning up quickly , 105. deg heat, sparks ,no a-c and burnt belts was not a fun situation to deal with !!


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## Turborusty (Aug 7, 2007)

A simple voltage spike can cause a fuse to pop. A fusible link works on a different principle.






> NOTES about Fusible Links Only a serious short will cause a Fusible Link to burn–it disconnects a circuit from power just before the rest of the wiring in a circuit would be damaged. Momentary overloads will not burn out a Fusible Link–such as arcing a wrench between ground and an exposed terminal.



Piggybacking is better because it leaves the original fusible link in place. Replacing the original with only a fuse or without a fuse can leave you exposed to possible safety issues.

I think having a properly sized link in your new wire would be best. The circuit was designed to be robust enough to see it through minor hishaps......yet still keep the car from burning itself to the ground.


Turborusty


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

dodgerblue said:


> do not rely on fusable links to protect as a fuse ,prior to us building the new at that time chevy impala 4dr for a prototype police build gm sent a one of their ee,s out to help us with some of the initial planning ,


What do you do? Police car builds? Juss wonderin'


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## dodgerblue (Jul 14, 2005)

chad said:


> What do you do? Police car builds? Juss wonderin'


from 03-06 ,we did police-gov. builds for az. sandiego ,new mex . cars were drop shipped by train by manu. and we would build to spec comms- computers video -data all lighting etc. not a glam. job ,fun, but tough work as we were paid per veh built - the motorcycles were a biatch !!!!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

dodgerblue said:


> from 03-06 ,we did police-gov. builds for az. sandiego ,new mex . cars were drop shipped by train by manu. and we would build to spec comms- computers video -data all lighting etc. not a glam. job ,fun, but tough work as we were paid per veh built - the motorcycles were a biatch !!!!


I stumbled into doing that via [cough]Community Service Work[cough] and really enjoyed it. This was before the computer and data systems though. I still will help out i have a few officers demand that I at least be present because i set them up the way THEY want them, and a happy cop... is a good cop  I recently helped the county go to digital, that was a learning expierience


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Yeah , community service had me flattening the bottoms of freshly dug graves in my younger days


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## CBRworm (Sep 1, 2006)

Good point on the big 3. I have not ever done it. 

In my cars case, the alternator is the weak link, not the wire running to it. 

I am relying mostly on the battery for my transients (and my non-transients). My system will hold the car voltage (measured from the dash) down below 12 volts on the highway with long bass notes (without kw's of output power), the voltage drop measured between the alternator and the battery is negligible (in my particular case) so I don't see any advantage to doing it. If I had a high power alternator I would. I did upgrade the factory ground wire from the battery to the frame.

My electrical system is so weak that if I have the midbass turned up loud, the sub amp will go into protect just from the midbass amp pulling current. I have had this problem with every sub amp I have had in this car except the XXK2500. It never went into protect. The PDX 1.1000 would go into protect when the midbasses hit even if the sub wasn't playing at the time. 

I wonder if the automatic cars have bigger alternators?


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## CBRworm (Sep 1, 2006)

Oh, for part of my community service I had to serve food and do dish duty at a high school in Polk County.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Anyone realize that all this equates to parallel fusing. So if you had a single cable with an 80 amp fuse and you add a thicker cable next to it with an 80 amp fuse as well, you get a really thick cable with a 160amp fuse on a system that still requires an 80 fuse?  

The solution is to run the new cable from the alternator to the OEM fused side and upgrade the other end of the fuse while always leaving one cable from main B+ post to main fuse. 

Which is pointless since the alternator cable would have been spec'd for the most current that the alternator will put out.


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## Turborusty (Aug 7, 2007)

But you're forgetting that the fusible link is not there to protect the alternator........it's there to protect the car from catching fire if something shorts out. 

So basically you're fusing the wire in relation to it's current capabilities. Thus, parallel fusing is just fine.


If you run only a quick-blow fuse and no link, if you get a current spike that blows the fuse, the car keeps running but you've just severed the connection between your alt. and battery. The battery has a very big job of shoothing out the voltage delivery to the vehicle. If the Alt is running and the battery is disconnected, you can experience severe voltage spikes or dips that could potentially damage components in the vehicle. Yesm there is a voltage regulator, but they are designed to deal with the relatively stable voltage delivered by the battery, It would have a difficult time handling the fluctuations caused by not having the battery in the circuit.

Thus, as has been said......the fusible link is not meant to protect the alt or battery, it's a last-ditch failsafe to sever the wire in the event of some other catastrophic event that could overheat the wire and set it on fire.

The OEMs could get away without the fusible link, but what happens in the event of an accident where the power lead gets pinched or battery terminal grounded out? that's what the protection is there for. A standard fuse will protect, yes, but it could lead to other potential problems if it blew prematurely.


Turborusty


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Anyone realize that all this equates to parallel fusing. So if you had a single cable with an 80 amp fuse and you add a thicker cable next to it with an 80 amp fuse as well, you get a really thick cable with a 160amp fuse on a system that still requires an 80 fuse?
> 
> The solution is to run the new cable from the alternator to the OEM fused side and upgrade the other end of the fuse while always leaving one cable from main B+ post to main fuse.
> 
> Which is pointless since the alternator cable would have been spec'd for the most current that the alternator will put out.


Egg-Fekin Zachary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm liking the way this is headed!


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> Egg-Fekin Zachary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I'm liking the way this is headed!


explain it to me then, big 3 good or no


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## Turborusty (Aug 7, 2007)

See my above post.....I was in the middle of my diatribe when I was sniped not once, but twice.





Turborusty


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Hic said:


> Yeah , community service had me flattening the bottoms of freshly dug graves in my younger days





CBRworm said:


> Oh, for part of my community service I had to serve food and do dish duty at a high school in Polk County.


I was washing cop cars, sweeping floors, and kissing ass when they REALLY kacked up putting radios, lights, and sirens in the "new Caprice." I asked if they wanted me to take a crack at it and they said no. I had been pulled over several times for, um, "audio." I said much of what they are doing was nothing more than what I did for fun. I helped out, and we cracked them out fast. I did county cars, then state, and on out. It gave me an interest in RF and now I have a ham license, I met a TON of friend that are good to have, if you know what I mean. I dig it, I like doing it the way they want the radios set up on an individual basis, and they like it too  A tall guy does not want his primary moto up front int he console, as a short gut does not want to reach behind him. Ergonomics! One of the few examples of the judicial system that worked. I learned my lesson in speed, met good people, established a bit of a gig, and above all made people happy. Community service the way it should be.

BTW.. I also recommend volunteer work at the animal shelter for service work, it's wonderful, and helpful!

Chad


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## green99_svt (Dec 4, 2007)

Turborusty said:


> But you're forgetting that the fusible link is not there to protect the alternator........it's there to protect the car from catching fire if something shorts out.
> 
> So basically you're fusing the wire in relation to it's current capabilities. Thus, parallel fusing is just fine.
> 
> ...



still your allowing double the current flow into the regulator if it was to short to ground wich could burn before the fuses do


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## Turborusty (Aug 7, 2007)

green99_svt said:


> still your allowing double the current flow into the regulator if it was to short to ground wich could burn before the fuses do



Not true....the alternator only puts out so much current...adding more wire will not increase the alternator output. 

That's like saying if you replace your 12ga speaker wire with 8ga, then your 500 watt amp will push 900 watts to your speakers.

if there was a short, the regular fast-blow fuse would blow immediately.......if the short did not resolve itself....the fusible link would slowly disintegrate until it no longer completed the curcuit.

The fusible link is not there to protect the regulator....in fact, in many cases the regulator is built into the alternator.



Turborusty


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## QtrHorse (Oct 17, 2007)

I thought everyone fused the Big 3 power wire, I did. I completely removed my factory charge cable, so no worry about the wire being double fused (one for the small and one for the big). I fused my system for the alternator, not the wire (200 amp, not 350).


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## ///Audience (Jan 31, 2007)

So im understanding the concepts discussed, but im a little slow on what yalls big 3 advice is. 

Are yall recommending upgrading all the wire as of standard BIG3 guidelines, but KEEP the stock wire from the alt to the fusebox?


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## Exalted512 (Jul 23, 2006)

HA! Fuses limit current. I dont run a fuse in my big 3 setup. When I start running dual alts I will.
-Cody


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Turborusty said:


> But you're forgetting that the fusible link is not there to protect the alternator........it's there to protect the car from catching fire if something shorts out.
> 
> So basically you're fusing the wire in relation to it's current capabilities. Thus, parallel fusing is just fine.
> 
> ...


K, got that part now. Fusing that cable would be ok but a waste of a fuse since you would be fusing a high current rated cable that doesn't _need_ a fast blowing fuse since it does not protect a device. What you would need is something like a fuasable link to protect the cable. Which you already have. Just connect it to the fused side. 

Again upgrading that cable is pointless since the alternator is _giving_ a set amount of current which the OEM cable is rated for, nothing on the other end is going to pull more amps then the alternator is rated to supply. Only the battery can do that, which is why we upgrade those cables. The battery gives what the device wants, the alternator gives what it wants to give no matter if a device wants more.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Power begins at the alternator, this is the beginning of your soundsystem.

If your alternator is not up to the task, then we read post like "weird.....",
my system was fine for awhile....now I need another amp , battery needs to be replaced , etc..,

work gets harder over time , things heat up and the load is increased.

Everyone quotes stock alternator [ 60 , 80 ,etc.., ] like it is being sent to the soundsystem .

Then when the alternator can't keep up with what is being asked of it , everything in the path suffers.


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## dodgerblue (Jul 14, 2005)

chad said:


> I was washing cop cars, sweeping floors, and kissing ass when they REALLY kacked up putting radios, lights, and sirens in the "new Caprice." I asked if they wanted me to take a crack at it and they said no. I had been pulled over several times for, um, "audio." I said much of what they are doing was nothing more than what I did for fun. I helped out, and we cracked them out fast. I did county cars, then state, and on out. It gave me an interest in RF and now I have a ham license, I met a TON of friend that are good to have, if you know what I mean. I dig it, I like doing it the way they want the radios set up on an individual basis, and they like it too  A tall guy does not want his primary moto up front int he console, as a short gut does not want to reach behind him. Ergonomics! One of the few examples of the judicial system that worked. I learned my lesson in speed, met good people, established a bit of a gig, and above all made people happy. Community service the way it should be.
> 
> BTW.. I also recommend volunteer work at the animal shelter for service work, it's wonderful, and helpful!
> 
> Chad


thats great chad , aquire some comm. service ,wind up helping-showing those guys how to get thier job done and become a fav. over there ! like you mentioned that veh. is there home daily so the details matter a ton ,from how the console and computer dock fits to protecting 25,000 dollars worth of elec. gear , there is some fun gear to install these days ,the bait truck builds were a fav. of mine ,interesting you mentioned volunteer work at animal shelters ! very noble of you , my wife started a non-profit dog rescue in 2000 with 40-60 volunteers and now invests time with many diff. rescues , naturally ive been involved also and will say it feels great to find great homes for these dogs , the family benefits as the dog does and cost is minimal compaired to going out and spending 8-hundo - thousands on a new pupp !!! very cool bro !


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## green99_svt (Dec 4, 2007)

Turborusty said:


> Not true....the alternator only puts out so much current...adding more wire will not increase the alternator output.
> 
> That's like saying if you replace your 12ga speaker wire with 8ga, then your 500 watt amp will push 900 watts to your speakers.
> 
> ...



i think you may have misunderstood what i was saying. if the voltage regulator was to short to ground it would no longer be feeding power from the alternator to the battery and the battery will have a dead short to ground with a double fuse the regulator will possibly burn from the current prior to the fuses.

ive seen regulators short numerous times and it can start an electrical fire quite easily. mid 80'a ford cars were known for the connector at the alternator shorting the cable to ground as the plastic deteriorated from time and heat. causing alot of sparking smoke and heat.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Hic said:


> Power begins at the alternator, this is the beginning of your soundsystem.
> 
> If your alternator is not up to the task, then we read post like "weird.....",
> my system was fine for awhile....now I need another amp , battery needs to be replaced , etc..,
> ...


which explains all the dead hifonics bx1500d's a few years back all those tools did the big 3 in 1/0 for a hamster alty


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Hic said:


> Power begins at the alternator, this is the beginning of your soundsystem.
> 
> If your alternator is not up to the task, then we read post like "weird.....",
> my system was fine for awhile....now I need another amp , battery needs to be replaced , etc..,
> ...


I think its the other way around. The alternator will never be fast enough or have the output potential to supply the 2 or 3 hundred amps that a high power system uses. It is designed to supply enough contant current _at idle_ to run all things that came on the car at once. The battery helps to supply the turn-on current peaks of those devices and to start the car. 

Once you install a device in your car that has a decent current pull rating then your alternator stops being an alternator and becomes more of an alternator/battery charger. 

Take a look at the idle current rating of HO alternator that you would replace your stock one with. It has nearly the same rating at idle engine speed when hot.


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## sporty_drew (Dec 7, 2007)

From what I'm reading the big three would be pointless on a stock alternator since that cable is already rated for what the alt can put out under load. 

When you put a HO alt on would a fuse rated at what the HO alt is rated at be sufficient? Or would one of these fuseable links be better for that?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

http://www.wranglernw.com/ShowCategory.aspx?categoryid=770

The most important modification you can make to your vehicle is to add a Wrangler NW Power Products high-output alternator, since most stock alternators produce only about 60-amps – tops - of power and require about three-fourths of that to run the car. 



Wrangler NW high output alternators are designed to work with your vehicle's on-board electronics and memory systems to deliver the required power levels without compromising the OEM computer controls. But our high output alternator kits take up where OEMs take a break.



These alternators are custom built to deliver higher output at idle than other alternators. They feature:


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## QtrHorse (Oct 17, 2007)

Those Wrangler NW alternators are very nice but also very pricey. A 200 amp alternator for my vehicle is $600. They do have a lot of the parts custom machined for better tolerances and they produce high amps at idle.


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## sporty_drew (Dec 7, 2007)

They don't have one Listed for my car. I'll have to stick with my Excessive Amperage one for those prices tho. They look like they have really nice idle outputs.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

a$$hole said:


> http://www.wranglernw.com/ShowCategory.aspx?categoryid=770
> 
> *The most important modification you can make to your vehicle is to add a Wrangler NW Power Products high-output alternator*, since most stock alternators produce only about 60-amps – tops - of power and require about three-fourths of that to run the car.
> 
> ...


I have to kindly disagree. Before the alternator, comes a capacitor style battery like a Kinetic and nessecery wiring where needed. All the upgraded alternator will do is keep your battery from dying out as fast while running the car and listen to loud music for a long time. Its not going to give you peak current demands of several hundreds of amps that some systems call for. 

Most amps now are regulated so the rated power that you design your system around will still be there if you have you car on or off. Upgrade the battery and the wiring and go by the rated power at 12 volts (which would be the same as it is with 14.4 volts when the car is on) and you'll never notice a difference in sound between the car off versus the car on and a HO alternator.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

t3sn4f2 said:


> I have to kindly disagree. Before the alternator, comes a capacitor style battery like a Kinetic and nessecery wiring where needed. All the upgraded alternator will do is keep your battery from dying out as fast while running the car and listen to loud music for a long time. Its not going to give you peak current demands of several hundreds of amps that some systems call for.
> 
> Most amps now are regulated so the rated power that you design your system around will still be there if you have you car on or off. Upgrade the battery and the wiring and go by the rated power at 12 volts (which would be the same as it is with 14.4 volts when the car is on) and you'll never notice a difference in sound between the car off versus the car on and a HO alternator.


I agree, the battery is the real power source, the alternator is part of the charging system.



t3sn4f2 said:


> Before the alternator, comes a capacitor style battery like a Kinetic.......



That almost makes me as nutty as Blue LED's. Lets just say a battery with a very low internal resistance shall we? That's what it's essentially all about


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

chad said:


> I agree, the battery is the real power source, the alternator is part of the charging system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats even better  . But how do we know an easy way of knowing that without learning how they work (in other words how do we know what is low enough). Are battery like Optimas or your Stinger functional in that way or at least good enough to serve peak current demands?


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

chad said:


> What in the hell choo talkin' about Willis?


Exactly what I was thinking. He's smokin some weed up there in the stix...

Ge0


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Thats even better  . But how do we know an easy way of knowing that without learning how they work (in other words how do we know what is low enough). Are battery like Optimas or your Stinger functional in that way or at least good enough to serve peak current demands?


The Stinger and odyssey baterires are esentially the same, as with a couple other brands. it's an AGM battery in a layered flat config as opposed to a spiral config.

There's a dB drag guy on a civic forum that really summed it up (and he's not an idiot and believe it or not we REALLY respect one-another's views)

Optima's are OLD TECHNOLOGY whereas the newer AGM designs are far superior in terms of power density per cubic inch.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Do you want major output at a stoplight ?

Put a smaller pulley on  [ Do not take the vehicle up to high revs after this mod, stay off the freeway ]

It's all tradeoffs


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## Lumadar (Sep 28, 2007)

chad said:


> The Stinger and odyssey baterires are esentially the same, as with a couple other brands. it's an AGM battery in a layered flat config as opposed to a spiral config.
> 
> There's a dB drag guy on a civic forum that really summed it up (and he's not an idiot and believe it or not we REALLY respect one-another's views)
> 
> Optima's are OLD TECHNOLOGY whereas the newer AGM designs are far superior in terms of power density per cubic inch.


Chad-

Any idea where I could find a good replacement battery (ie using 1 battery for the car and system) for my Focus locally at a half decent price? Is there a brand or type that is best? I was going to go for the best battery I could fit from Autozone, which is only like $80-90. I would be willing to go higher though if you think it would be worth it.


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## AUr6 (Apr 10, 2007)

So hopefully I'm getting this straight... the battery is what runs everything. The alternator just keeps the battery charged, and if a high power system uses energy faster than the alternator can recharge it, you get headlight dimming, etc. The Big 3 could arguably be applied minus the alternator to battery because the cable is already sized to handle the max the alternator can be pushed, but if you want to upgrade, go for it and it won't hurt. (the rest of the big 3 type stuff i'm sure is discussed ad nauseum elsewhere) Either way, the line between the alternator & battery should be protected by fusing it using the link (can't recall the name at the moment) and not using a normal fuse (but a quick blowing fuse is still better than no fuse). The "fuse" protects the cable, not the alternator.

does that sum it up? 

Oh yeah, and make friends with cops, do (mandatory) community service, and save puppies...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Lumadar said:


> Chad-
> 
> Any idea where I could find a good replacement battery (ie using 1 battery for the car and system) for my Focus locally at a half decent price? Is there a brand or type that is best? I was going to go for the best battery I could fit from Autozone, which is only like $80-90. I would be willing to go higher though if you think it would be worth it.


Honestly I had no issues with a test run of an Autozone duralast gold, but it would not fit properly, I needed power density. What size battery is in the Focus? If it would have fit I probably would have rolled that one


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

a$$hole said:


> Do you want major output at a stoplight ?


I don't ever forsee myself needing major power at a stoplight, I have much better ways of annoying people than my music 



AUr6 said:


> So hopefully I'm getting this straight... the battery is what runs everything. The alternator just keeps the battery charged, and if a high power system uses energy faster than the alternator can recharge it, you get headlight dimming, etc.


Correct, does you system work with the car off? if you play it too long do you need to recharge the battery? I know it's a chicken/egg thing but it's how I see it. As for dimming, yes and no. Sometimes a battery cannot supply the current at the speed needed for audio, this is when you see dimming, the battery sags then catches back up. The lower the internal resistance the faster it can supply power, not necessarliy MORE but faster. 2 batteries may have the same Ah capacity but the one with the lower internal resistance will have less dimming and sag less under stress. BUT after the exact same amount of time and consumption they will need the same amount of power (Ah) to recharge them.



AUr6 said:


> The Big 3 could arguably be applied minus the alternator to battery because the cable is already sized to handle the max the alternator can be pushed, but if you want to upgrade, go for it and it won't hurt. (the rest of the big 3 type stuff i'm sure is discussed ad nauseum elsewhere) Either way, the line between the alternator & battery should be protected by fusing it using the link (can't recall the name at the moment) and not using a normal fuse (but a quick blowing fuse is still better than no fuse). The "fuse" protects the cable, not the alternator.
> 
> does that sum it up?


Pretty much, there IS the voltage loss per foot thing which is the main reason I upgraded the alt to fuse box run, at some point you will be splitting hairs though. I believe mine was less than or right at 8GA so it was on the ragged edge of "proper" in my eyes. And by all means I am a proponent of upgrading the grounding from the battery to the body/engine. Nothing meakes me more sick then seeing a 0Ga wire coming off the positive and 2 measily stock grounding wires at 8-10Ga going to the fender and starter bracket.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Lets call a alternator [ Gas ]
Lets call the battery [ Motor ]

What happens to a motor when it runs out of gas?

Why do batteries need to be recharged, why do amplifiers have capacitors in them?

Everyone knows capacitors are worthless, right!


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

a$$hole said:


> Everyone knows capacitors are worthless, right!


Not on the bipolar rails


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## Lumadar (Sep 28, 2007)

chad said:


> Honestly I had no issues with a test run of an Autozone duralast gold, but it would not fit properly, I needed power density. What size battery is in the Focus? If it would have fit I probably would have rolled that one


It's relatively small, but I have test fitted a Duralast Gold in the past that was a size larger and it would fit with minimal modifications. I ended up returning it because at the time I decided not to put a system in this car, and now things have changed


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Lumadar said:


> It's relatively small, but I have test fitted a Duralast Gold in the past that was a size larger and it would fit with minimal modifications. I ended up returning it because at the time I decided not to put a system in this car, and now things have changed


Is it this small?





















I thought only Honda would be stupid enough to try and pull that one off


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

a$$hole said:


> Lets call a alternator [ Gas ]
> Lets call the battery [ Motor ]
> 
> What happens to a motor when it runs out of gas?
> ...



Sum up what you are saying, I'm not following......


----------



## Lumadar (Sep 28, 2007)

Haha, no not quite that small. I would say maybe 1.5 times the size of the Stinger. It's not as skinny and tall, a little wider.


----------



## AUr6 (Apr 10, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Sum up what you are saying, I'm not following......


I think he's taking the opposing view of chad on the "chicken/egg " issue. Both are necessary. One needs the other to complete the system. The alternator can't power the vehcle and companents, but it can keep the battery charged so the battery can run everything without dying on you. (Enter high power sound systems and you have to figure out where the bottlenecks in the system are, unless you just want to spend gobs of money and upgrade everything regardless of where your money might be most efficiently spent.)

this thread started with a discussion on fusing and morphed into the alternator/battery topic.. interesting.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

AUr6 said:


> this thread started with a discussion on fusing and morphed into the alternator/battery topic.. interesting.


I started it so let it wander  Like I've never weandered off topic  

I'm going to go out on a limb and say....... at least for my purposes...... If your stock alternator cannot keep your battery charged then you are listening WAY too loud it have a heinously inefficient system. Lets say in terms of AVERAGE power with AVERAGE listening material.

Has anyone really looked to see what their system pulls on an average, not playing tones? If you have, then ever wondered why you need a coal generation facility under your hood?

Chad


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

chad said:


> Has anyone really looked to see what their system pulls on an average, not playing tones? If you have, then ever wondered why you need a coal generation facility under your hood?
> 
> Chad


My fused distribution block shows both volts and amps passing through it to the amplifiers. I realize it is certainly not a sophisticated piece of measuring equipment but it does give you an idea of how few amps are being used to maintain ~13.5v.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

CMR22 said:


> My fused distribution block shows both volts and amps passing through it to the amplifiers. I realize it is certainly not a sophisticated piece of measuring equipment but it does give you an idea of how few amps are being used to maintain ~13.5v.


Hell of a revelation isn't it?

Early on into touring sound I clamped onto a 200A per leg feeder to realize a 100KW sound system was averaging 20A per leg and really cooking along! Now peaks are another story 

BUT in car audio..... that's what the low internal resistance at the battery is for! Remember a peak is just that, a short burst the alternator should top it off in short order!


----------



## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Lets throw in another one here. Can we assume that a _bad_ ground connection in the trunk can be like putting an 8 gauge cable between your required 0 gauge ( if that gauge is your particular systems need) and the body? It can be seen this way since a bad ground is still grounded but just offers unwanted resistance only when pushed past its current carrying limits the way a thinner cable in between would.

No if that is true how can I use a multimeter to check my ground, if a 0 and an 8 gauge have no significant difference in resistance at install lengths? The bad ground would have to be TERRIBLE for you to be able to use one, if not then you will get a good reading but when the current is cranked up it will no be a good ground anymore.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Lets throw in another one here. Can we assume that a _bad_ ground connection in the trunk can be like putting an 8 gauge cable between your required 0 gauge ( if that gauge is your particular systems need) and the body? It can be seen this way since a bad ground is still grounded but just offers unwanted resistance only when pushed past its current carrying limits the way a thinner cable in between would.
> 
> No if that is true how can I use a multimeter to check my ground, if a 0 and an 8 gauge have no significant difference in resistance at install lengths? The bad ground would have to be TERRIBLE for you to be able to use one, if not then you will get a good reading but when the current is cranked up it will no be a good ground anymore.


That's no **** man, a DMM is not good at measuring ground resistance but a milliohm meter is. But as that is said, the next caveat is that neither will tell you the resistance UNDER LOAD. 

IT's a total "do it overkill and hope for the best" approach. 

Good you bring that up because I imagine it's often overlooked.

Chad


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

chad said:


> That's no **** man, a DMM is not good at measuring ground resistance but a milliohm meter is. But as that is said, the next caveat is that neither will tell you the resistance UNDER LOAD.
> 
> IT's a total "do it overkill and hope for the best" approach.
> 
> ...


Do you think that an undesirable level of resistance could be detected with one of those infrared thermometers. On a cool morning, you get a base reading on all connection points then you leave the system blasting for a little while then recheck and compare. Assuming you points are on known well conducting points on your car like the frame or something.

There should be no change in temp at all right?


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

MMMM I dunno, there's a lot of variables there. BUT you could measure to the car body and at the amp ground and look for voltage difference when she's hammering.


----------



## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

chad said:


> MMMM I dunno, there's a lot of variables there. BUT you could measure to the car body and at the amp ground and look for voltage difference when she's hammering.


Oh yeah, that would be an easier way. And use a bass sine wave in case the meter used is not that fast to catch the drops on fast transients.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Oh yeah, that would be an easier way. And use a bass sine wave in case the meter used is not that fast to catch the drops on fast transients.


Sounds like a plan, now begs the question, is the voltage drop in the wire or the actual ground bond?


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

I'm reading all this, and one of the things that comes to mind is.. what if they picked the wire they did from alternator to ground that size not just to cut costs, but for safety measures? Like if they handed out smaller straws when you went to the burger joint to ensure you don't get a brain freeze? What if they use the size of wire as another way of limiting the amount of juice the alternator can put out? Just a thought.

Juan


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

OldOneEye said:


> I'm reading all this, and one of the things that comes to mind is.. what if they picked the wire they did from alternator to ground that size not just to cut costs, but for safety measures? Like if they handed out smaller straws when you went to the burger joint to ensure you don't get a brain freeze? What if they use the size of wire as another way of limiting the amount of juice the alternator can put out? Just a thought.
> 
> Juan


Well since mine, stock, is bundled with other wiring I would see that as a GREAT safety hazzard.

BUT Damn, the smaller straw idea to prevent brain freezes is absolutely brilliant!


----------



## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

Side note: [comedy post]

People building high SPL [bass] car audio systems
are 'safety hazzards', a human can be physically harmed.

But, people are not worried about human safety, they
are worried about fusing their installs to protect the car
instead ? 

See the funny in this?


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

thylantyr said:


> Side note: [comedy post]
> 
> People building high SPL [bass] car audio systems
> are 'safety hazzards', a human can be physically harmed.
> ...


Not only funny but true  

I've said it before and I'll say it again. before I get back to being funny.....  

I would be GREATLY saddened to come in one morning and read a post titled. "I suffered a house fire, it started in the garage"

And man, that's just property damage, it would tear me up to no end to hear of the injury or loss of a family member.

When I had a kidney stone......... back to entertainment......

I learned of it from high SPL bass, it would vibrate the kidneys and cause lower back pain, eventually it knocked it loose, and lemme tell you what, tha taint fun!

chad


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## avaxis (May 23, 2006)

so er, do we do the big 3 or not? i still don't follow.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

avaxis said:


> so er, do we do the big 3 or not? i still don't follow.


Do you at least have your ground from the battery to the body larger than stock? If not do that, then check back


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

avaxis said:


> so er, do we do the big 3 or not? i still don't follow.


Do the BIG 1 . Upgrade the B- cable accordingly going to your frame. Mount your trunk ground to the same continuous or welded together piece of thick metal you connected your new ground to in the front. Cars have isolation mounts for the body and metal body panels that might be glued together so the path to the frame might not be clean. If you will be drilling a whole in the trunk to mount the ground to on the frame, then use one of those compression threw wire mounts that stop water from leaking in.


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## syd-monster (Jan 7, 2008)

One of the things I like to do (when time & $$$ allow for) is the big-3, but remove the factory cables and replace with similar size (but with more strands). I don;t see a need to go crazy oversized, but more strands helps cary on those electrons. To me cable size is a factor, but the same CSA (cross sectional area) for any 2 given cables, the higher (thus more smaller strands) the strand count the better. Most OEM cables are thick but use large strands, of which there is less for any given CSA. Hence my preferance to same size, more strands.
The other thing is to really clean the bolts and sufaces that these cables make contact on. The chassis rail, bolts, washers, the contact patch, cable lugs etc, and apply some dyalectric grease.
So going back to the original diagram Chad posted, I would remove and replace that factory wire, (yes very time consuming) and replace it with a cable of similar CSA but high-strand count, use new cable lugs, clean and grease all the terminals.


ps, all of this only applies if you beleive in the part of physics that supports that electrons move on the surfaces of the conductors (ie conventional current or electron fow).


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

syd-monster said:


> One of the things I like to do (when time & $$$ allow for) is the big-3, but remove the factory cables and replace with similar size (but with more strands). I don;t see a need to go crazy oversized, but more strands helps cary on those electrons. To me cable size is a factor, but the same CSA (cross sectional area) for any 2 given cables, the higher (thus more smaller strands) the strand count the better. Most OEM cables are thick but use large strands, of which there is less for any given CSA. Hence my preferance to same size, more strands.
> The other thing is to really clean the bolts and sufaces that these cables make contact on. The chassis rail, bolts, washers, the contact patch, cable lugs etc, and apply some dyalectric grease.
> So going back to the original diagram Chad posted, I would remove and replace that factory wire, (yes very time consuming) and replace it with a cable of similar CSA but high-strand count, use new cable lugs, clean and grease all the terminals.
> 
> ...


That's exactly what I did, I removed the factory wiring and replaced it with 4Ga welding cable designed to take the heat and stresses. It really was not THAT much more time consuming as I like to run any add-on's as if the maker did it anyway. So I would have had to un-clip the harness anyway. Honda was nice enough to leave me room in the loom so as I pulled the old stuff out I laid the new stuff in. It really was not THAT bad, honestly. and the peace of mind is present. It's wired JUST LIKE THE FACTORY DID IT, but only with larger diameter wire, and not huge, just 4 Ga.

Chad


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## speakerboy (Oct 2, 2007)

chad said:


> I learned of it from high SPL bass, it would vibrate the kidneys and cause lower back pain, eventually it knocked it loose, and lemme tell you what, tha taint fun!
> 
> chad


Huh, huh...you said "taint".


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

speakerboy said:


> Huh, huh...you said "taint".


It taint the..... and it taint......

Wow, been a long time since I've seen that


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## avaxis (May 23, 2006)

chad said:


> Do you at least have your ground from the battery to the body larger than stock? If not do that, then check back


ok, done that, checking back  what's next?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

quoting Chad:

And by all means I am a proponent of upgrading the grounding from the battery to the body/engine.


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## syd-monster (Jan 7, 2008)

chad said:


> That's exactly what I did, I removed the factory wiring and replaced it with 4Ga welding cable designed to take the heat and stresses. It really was not THAT much more time consuming as I like to run any add-on's as if the maker did it anyway. So I would have had to un-clip the harness anyway. Honda was nice enough to leave me room in the loom so as I pulled the old stuff out I laid the new stuff in. It really was not THAT bad, honestly. and the peace of mind is present. It's wired JUST LIKE THE FACTORY DID IT, but only with larger diameter wire, and not huge, just 4 Ga.
> 
> Chad


 When were after that OEM look, that is perfect. Good work, and glad to hear I taint the only one.
What car was this in Chad? Civic right?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

syd-monster said:


> When were after that OEM look, that is perfect. Good work, and glad to hear I taint the only one.
> What car was this in Chad? Civic right?


Yes, it really was not that bad, it's not like it's mission critical so get your ducks in a row and do one chunk a wire an evening with your son next to you and show him how it's done. Take your time and do it right, it's easier and less stressful that way


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

avaxis said:


> ok, done that, checking back  what's next?


So you have upgraded your ground from the battery to the chassis/body. Do you have any issues you are uncomfortable with?


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## avaxis (May 23, 2006)

well when i turn up the volume (25 on Alpine HU) my lights are dimming when the bass hits. afaik my car has a 40A alternator, NS40 battery (40A i guess). amps are a PDX 4.150 and JL 500/1.. high efficiency ones since i know i don't have that much power..

would upgrading to a 60-series battery help? if any?


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

avaxis said:


> well when i turn up the volume (25 on Alpine HU) my lights are dimming when the bass hits. afaik my car has a 40A alternator, NS40 battery (40A i guess). amps are a PDX 4.150 and JL 500/1.. high efficiency ones since i know i don't have that much power..
> 
> would upgrading to a 60-series battery help? if any?


Wow  

Battery has 240CCA and 36AH capacity... and a 40A alternator!

What kind of car?

May be wise to look into an AGM battery like a Odyssey or another in that type of line-up.


----------



## kkant (Feb 3, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Which is pointless since the alternator cable would have been spec'd for the most current that the alternator will put out.


Yup. No point in a big alt-battery cable, IMO. Unless you have an aftermarket alt.

Just do the big ground straps and big battery-amp power cable. And make sure the connections are solid.


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## SteveLPfreak (Sep 26, 2005)

avaxis said:


> well when i turn up the volume (25 on Alpine HU) my lights are dimming when the bass hits. afaik my car has a 40A alternator, NS40 battery (40A i guess). amps are a PDX 4.150 and JL 500/1.. high efficiency ones since i know i don't have that much power..
> 
> would upgrading to a 60-series battery help? if any?


I've always thought that the best way to see if a HO alt is beneficial to your install is to pull up another running car next to your's, use some heavy duty jumper cables and connect the two electrical systems.


----------



## kkant (Feb 3, 2008)

OldOneEye said:


> I'm reading all this, and one of the things that comes to mind is.. what if they picked the wire they did from alternator to ground that size not just to cut costs, but for safety measures? Like if they handed out smaller straws when you went to the burger joint to ensure you don't get a brain freeze? What if they use the size of wire as another way of limiting the amount of juice the alternator can put out? Just a thought.


I don't think they would do this, because this actually makes it somewhat more unsafe. If the wire is too small it could heat up. The fuse (fusible link, or whatever) is enough of a safety factor.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

kkant said:


> Yup. No point in a big alt-battery cable, IMO. Unless you have an aftermarket alt.
> 
> Just do the big ground straps and big battery-amp power cable. And make sure the connections are solid.


I can't agree more. I did the alt to fuse box out of having the car in the garage and the little wrench monkey wanting to get dirty. I noticed no difference in the end. But that ground to chassis from the battery... yeah.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

chad said:


> I can't agree more. I did the alt to fuse box out of having the car in the garage and the little wrench monkey wanting to get dirty. I noticed no difference in the end. But that ground to chassis from the battery... yeah.


That ostrich avatar looks just like a person.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

t3sn4f2 said:


> That ostrich avatar looks just like a person.


Had to change it up again, the collection is growing


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

SteveLPfreak said:


> I've always thought that the best way to see if a HO alt is beneficial to your install is to pull up another running car next to your's, use some heavy duty jumper cables and connect the two electrical systems.


Good one, been there done that, [ in the trenches  ].


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

chad said:


> Had to change it up again, the collection is growing


All right, THAT does it Chad, I'm not sending any more of my family album pics


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

OldOneEye said:


> I'm reading all this, and one of the things that comes to mind is.. what if they picked the wire they did from alternator to ground that size not just to cut costs, but for safety measures? Like if they handed out smaller straws when you went to the burger joint to ensure you don't get a brain freeze? What if they use the size of wire as another way of limiting the amount of juice the alternator can put out? Just a thought.
> 
> Juan


try and explain to a women you don't want to hurt her


----------



## avaxis (May 23, 2006)

chad said:


> Wow
> 
> Battery has 240CCA and 36AH capacity... and a 40A alternator!
> 
> ...


sadly, nobody stocks AGM batteries in my country.. least not yet.
the car is a Perodua Myvi, local Malaysian made. 1.3L engine.. a small compact and cheerful car but highly lacking in dampening.. used 2 boxes of dynamat xtreme on it to have at least a decent conversation at cruising speeds.












SteveLPfreak said:


> I've always thought that the best way to see if a HO alt is beneficial to your install is to pull up another running car next to your's, use some heavy duty jumper cables and connect the two electrical systems.


thanks for the tip, not looking to a HO alt. if a larger battery is beneficial then i'll get that else i guess i'll just live with it...


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## LordZeal (Dec 13, 2007)

I've seen alot of talk about the Alt to Battery + and the Batter - to ground upgrades, what about the Engine to Chassis ground? 

Also, I agree totally that upgrading your Alt to battery + wire with a stock alternator is not going to get you much if any gain. What about when I just upgraded my stock 120 amp alternator to an Iraggi 200 amp alternator? Whats wrong with running a 4 or 0 gauge wire from the new alternator to the Battery +, with a fuse, and leaving the stock wiring?

Thanks for the good info in here!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I used 4 GA and replaced the stock wiring, using the stock fusing and stock location, you would never tell, and I did not notice a damn difference for the record 

I am a big fan of updating grounding though as in most situations I have seen it seems to be the most anemic point if you are running aftermarket accessories.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

To go along with this topic, I have two wires connected to my batt neg. One goes to the engine block and the other, smaller, wire goes to the fender. Is the combination of those my batt- to chassis ground, or would one be my batt to chassis and the other the engine to chassis? I guess, in my impreza I don't know where the chassis to engine ground is.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

LordZeal said:


> I've seen alot of talk about the Alt to Battery + and the Batter - to ground upgrades, what about the Engine to Chassis ground?
> 
> Also, I agree totally that upgrading your Alt to battery + wire with a stock alternator is not going to get you much if any gain. What about when I just upgraded my stock 120 amp alternator to an Iraggi 200 amp alternator? Whats wrong with running a 4 or 0 gauge wire from the new alternator to the Battery +, with a fuse, and leaving the stock wiring?
> 
> Thanks for the good info in here!


I believe I can answer your first question (someone please correct me if I'm wrong):

The engine -> chassis ground is for the alternator since the alternator is typically grounded to the engine block. Soo... if upgrading the alternator "+" wire is pointless...


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

gijoe said:


> To go along with this topic, I have two wires connected to my batt neg. One goes to the engine block and the other, smaller, wire goes to the fender. Is the combination of those my batt- to chassis ground, or would one be my batt to chassis and the other the engine to chassis? I guess, in my impreza I don't know where the chassis to engine ground is.


Never mind, I found my missing wire going from my tranny to the firewall. I'm amazed how small it is, 10 gauge at best


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

A dumb question, but here goes...

Is the factory chassis ground on the fender near the battery tray a good location? I've piggybacked the original ground with an upgraded 4 ga. in the factory location, but I'm wondering if the sheetmatal is sufficient, or if I should have tried to attach directly to the frame somewhere.

I'm guessing this will be sufficient since this is where the factory ground is located (and sheetmetal is usually sufficient for amps, themselves).


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

BEAVER said:


> A dumb question, but here goes...
> 
> Is the factory chassis ground on the fender near the battery tray a good location? I've piggybacked the original ground with an upgraded 4 ga. in the factory location, but I'm wondering if the sheetmatal is sufficient, or if I should have tried to attach directly to the frame somewhere.
> 
> I'm guessing this will be sufficient since this is where the factory ground is located (and sheetmetal is usually sufficient for amps, themselves).


I'd say its mainly for lights and stuff around there. If you are looking to upgrade a stock one I'd say your best bet is the thickest one aside from the one the goes to the engine block. But testing is the only way to know for sure what is best.


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

The only aux ground on my truck is a single 12 inch 10ga. or 12ga. wire attached to the fender... that's it. I wasn't overly impressed, to say the least.


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## nplarkin (Aug 20, 2009)

I redid a few of the ground wires in my car with 4 gage wire and it seemed to smooth the voltage output


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## emperorjj1 (Sep 10, 2008)

would the alt ground be helpful? batt ground is already done


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## Austin (Mar 12, 2009)

emperorjj1 said:


> would the alt ground be helpful? batt ground is already done


That is basically your engine to chassis ground. If could be beneficial but it really depends. When i put an amp in my sisters 04 mustang i upgraded the engine to chassis ground and it felt a bit more responsive afterward (The engine not the amp ). So go ahead and do it with some 4 gauge and you will be all set.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Austin said:


> That is basically your engine to chassis ground. *If could be beneficial but it really depends.* When i put an amp in my sisters 04 mustang i upgraded the engine to chassis ground and it felt a bit more responsive afterward (The engine not the amp ). So go ahead and do it with some 4 gauge and you will be all set.


x2. The electrical path from the alt. housing to where it mounts on the engine has to be sound.


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## emperorjj1 (Sep 10, 2008)

cool ive been thinking of grounding my stock alt to the same place ive grounded my 2nd alt.... as long as running a ground from the alt/alts to the batteries in the back. 

i think the grounding situation in my car is my weak spot even thou other then ^^^ ive done as much as i can to make sure the grounds in my car are good as with as big of wire as possible


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## DaPhenom07 (Dec 12, 2009)

hey chad, i have a 1999 civic and i've heard about that "big 3" thing and it seems to work and i was wondering if your layout would also work in my car. looking foward to some feedback. thanks


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## tulse (Mar 16, 2010)

This was a fantastic little read. I skimmed it; don't recall if the below was answered or not, so..... 

A fusible link is designed to separate at a certain temperature and does not necessarily require heat produced from the circuit it's in. Do I have that correct? 

So why are they used b/w the alternator and battery specifically over a "normal" fuse?


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Just for reference, I thought I would post the info below about an OEM battery/charging/wiring system on a newer vehicle.

I have a 2012 vehicle that came with an OEM alternator that is rated at 170 amps.

The OEM (+) wire between the alternator and the fuse box is 4-gauge.

In the fuse box there is an isolated 170-amp ANL fuse exclusively for the alternator. The ~12" long (+) wire from the alternator fuse to the (+) battery terminal is also 4-gauge. There is a second 4-gauge (+) power wire from the fuse box to the (+) battery terminal. This is the main (+) supply wire to all of the fused circuits in the fuse box.

There is a single ground wire from the (-) Battery terminal that is connected to the inner fender sheet metal with an ~16" long, 4-gauge wire. The engine block to chasis ground is also 4-gauge.

I haven't checked the OEM schematics yet, but I'm pretty familiar with fusable links from working on dozens of vehicles that have had them, and I don't believe there are any in this charging/power system.


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

Your missing the most important one. What about your (-) battery to chassis?


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## sszyma (Feb 7, 2013)

Correct me if I am wrong: there is concern over fusing the wire from the alt to the battery for safety reasons. Isn't the wire from the battery to the starter motor unfused? So in terms of safety you still will have a several foot section of ~4ga wire that is unfused.


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## emperorjj1 (Sep 10, 2008)

if you add an additional power from the alt to the batt you should fuse it eliminating said concern. With the starter wire im sure that's going to depend on the vehicle your driving, but if that is the case for your vehicle doing the big 3 isn't going to affect that at all... your stock battery has enough power to do whatever damage you are thinking of so increasing the battery size and or alternator charging abilities (which is the goal of the big 3) you wont be making the car any more hazardous then it was prior


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## Schizm (Jun 12, 2011)

joms said:


> thanks for the reply. another concern im facing right now is tht ive learned recently that scans dont do too good with moisture. in this regard, im somewhat looking at the genesis absolut or the alpine F1.
> 
> would you know if the seas lotus can handle moisture? is the lotus designed for in car use?


I did 8 hours of rolling pennies, and about 32 hours of scrubbing the walls of a nursing home that allowed residents to smoke. Nothing like scrubbing tar off the walls and going home smelling like an ashtray. Ugh


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