# Soundstream Rubicon rub4.600 Gut Pics



## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

OK, so I got the Rub4.600 in today. Opened her up and took some pics. Now before this goes the way I think it will, remember this is a $200 dollar amp so please keep that in mind when trying to compare it.

So what I was told is that this is the lil wonder for the states. Europes are called little wonder and they have been out for alittle over there and have been well recieived. 

looking at the board you see that it is labeled LW3G, and it states it was designed in America. These amps are coming out of China and not Korea 










I was touching the connections on the board just to see if they were secure, they all were but you can notice this is alittle crooked but the connection is fine.











Not as nice as the old stuff but for the price it might not be bad at all. I wasnt expecting dual power supplies or anything in an amp this price. So here are the rest of the pics I took.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Now I dont know how it performs yet but tomorrow is supposed to be close to 60 degrees out so I am gonna try to get it hooked up in the car for alittle listen. I am still trying to find a power supply for a cheap price to test it out with the stingray scope and see how much power it puts out before clipping

Definetly looks alot better than soundstreams previous stuff or atleast fro the past couple years


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Not bad.

What urged you to take the risk?


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Just wanted to see if what I was hearing was true, and the fact that I think I am done with all the expensive gear I used to use, if these are decent with the output I can use 3 of these for less than the price of one of my other amps. I am gonna focus more on the installation that the components. The specs look good as far as thd and SN, just need to see what kinda power they put out


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## kcdonahue (Sep 27, 2008)

Thanks for the pics man!

Looking forward to your opinions on how it sounds.

KC


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## dave_damage (Jul 9, 2008)

Looks good. I cant wait for the review. This amp is called a Lil Wonder III LW4.620 over seas.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

dave_damage said:


> Looks good. I cant wait for the review. This amp is called a Lil Wonder III LW4.620 over seas.


Dave is the one that told me about the newer cheif engineer Karl Cummings and the new line, thanks for the info Dave, I hope to know how she performs tomorrow


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## King Nothing (Oct 10, 2005)

So what are the opinions on the guts. I dont know what Im looking at


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## dave_damage (Jul 9, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> Dave is the one that told me about the newer cheif engineer Karl Cummings and the new line, thanks for the info Dave, I hope to know how she performs tomorrow



This was the last amp line he designed for Soundstream. Not that it matters, but Carl is Afro American. Just bringing that up because I think its cool lol


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## dave_damage (Jul 9, 2008)

Grizz Archer is the man responsible for turning around the quality @ Soundstream.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

thanks for the info Dave


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## dave_damage (Jul 9, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> thanks for the info Dave


This is a pic from 2009 CES


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

That thing looks like a power acoustik board; some crooked stuff and no SMD, soldered jumpers. On the other hand some old school amps look nasty inside too, it really depends on the design and components used. Is very hard to tell by looking, at least for me. The new alpines made in China some have four layer boards like a PC and lots of SMD, but hard to repair. They are made mostly by machine. IMO how fast they break is about the most important factor.

Is it [email protected]? A lot of 2x120rms at 4 ohm amps have the same number of transistors as that, but it depends on how good that parts are as to what they will take.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

sqshoestring said:


> That thing looks like a power acoustik board; some crooked stuff and no SMD, soldered jumpers. On the other hand some old school amps look nasty inside too, it really depends on the design and components used. Is very hard to tell by looking, at least for me. The new alpines made in China some have four layer boards like a PC and lots of SMD, but hard to repair. They are made mostly by machine. IMO how fast they break is about the most important factor.
> 
> Is it [email protected]? A lot of 2x120rms at 4 ohm amps have the same number of transistors as that, but it depends on how good that parts are as to what they will take.


The manula says 100 x 4 at 4 ohms, I got it hooked up over the weekend, I think its alittle under powered which is what i was hoping wasnt the case, it puts out clean power as far as I can tell. i was hopping to get it benched but dont have all the gear I need to, to do it. I might send it off to the guys at Zed to get it benched if I have the time, or I might just sell it.

I moved my DLS nobelium 8.2 active with it and I am not getting the 8" to move as far as before or have as much output, considering it was runnign off an old school Kicker zr240 which is probably putting out 90-100rms per channel thru the passives.

All in all I think its a decent amp for the price. I will probably not end up using it as its not up to the standards I am used to with the expensive amps I usually run.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

Sorry to hear that. The construction looks pretty cheap, but sometimes you can still get a good amp. Cosmetically it's beautiful. I'd buy a couple heat sinks and drop some nice boards in them.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Mooble said:


> Sorry to hear that. The construction looks pretty cheap, but sometimes you can still get a good amp. Cosmetically it's beautiful. I'd buy a couple heat sinks and drop some nice boards in them.


Ya I guess that the way it goes sometimes, i kinda figured it wouldnt be what I was used to, but there is always wishful thinking

Im probably just gonna bridged it and put the passives back in for now and that should help out alittle, or I might just toss the zr240 abck in till my Zuki gets here.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I just bought a rack of resistors to test properly but not got it going yet. I've found that with other cheaper amps, they just rate them on fire. If you get one that is larger than you need (more or less) then they can work well. A lot of them sound good, though some freak out more when they go into distortion like my kicker does...and I was told kicker was middle of the road not junk amp. I don't like it whatever the case (for my use) but then again my favorite amps were likely more expensive. A better amp tends to be you can use all of its power where cheaper ones you can't. I do have a 2x200rms super cheap amp I'd like to try in my car though, but its huge. I bought it slightly used for <$40 tmd! I think it was rated 2000 peak and 1x500rms bridged. Where this SS here has 4x2 outputs/ch this has 2x6 output transistors. I find only the larger class AB have 2x6, also have a hifonics 600 zeus and an giant ultra linear like that. Given transistor qualities vary, that is only a very basic way to judge an amp's capabilities. In fact I have a SS 880 that is larger yet but I'd rather use class D for subs not sure that would work well for highs and again its huge. Really cheap amps can have other issues too like misbalanced channels and noise floors, etc., even brand new. Hard for me to test for that kind of stuff but have seen obvious examples. That said I have used lots of cheap stuff with success over the years, kind of fun IMO but a lot of trial and error and some things you just can't like say an external xover or EQ, or likely a HU. Most of those put noise in and you lose out. If I have enough 12v power I've just kept some of these amps around to test when get the time.


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

dave_damage said:


> Grizz Archer is the man responsible for turning around the quality @ Soundstream.


Has he said anything about where he would like SS to be in the near / distance future? Which product lines will we see the quality change, if there not already out.


BeatsDownLow thanks for the pics. I was on the fence also but change my mine. SS interior design department did a nice job on the looks thou.


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

I'd say it would be good for ~75 watts x 4 @ 4 ohms based on the parts count in the amp assuming it has the "typical" parts used.


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

The Lil Wonder III LW4.620 puts out 80 x 4 @ 4ohm and supposed to be the same board and the Rubicon? SS rates the Rubicon at 100 x 4 @ 4ohm.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

sundownz said:


> I'd say it would be good for ~75 watts x 4 @ 4 ohms based on the parts count in the amp assuming it has the "typical" parts used.


Thats what I was thinking, it defiently deosnt feel like its putting out 100 watts per channel but I wouldne venture to say it 50 watts either. I am gonna bridge it on my midbass and see what she is like.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Blazemore said:


> Has he said anything about where he would like SS to be in the near / distance future? Which product lines will we see the quality change, if there not already out.
> 
> 
> BeatsDownLow thanks for the pics. I was on the fence also but change my mine. SS interior design department did a nice job on the looks thou.




i was talking to [email protected] the other day and he said they will be available here in the first quarter of the year.


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## dave_damage (Jul 9, 2008)

Blazemore said:


> Has he said anything about where he would like SS to be in the near / distance future? Which product lines will we see the quality change, if there not already out.
> 
> 
> BeatsDownLow thanks for the pics. I was on the fence also but change my mine. SS interior design department did a nice job on the looks thou.



Well the first thing he did was get rid of the entry level Xtream line. His main focus has been on the Reference line. He says he is mare than pleased with the end result of the line, and that believe it or not, blows the originals away. The new Tower and Stealth Series will be 1 and 2 steps above 2008's High line Tarantulas. This is the order from bottom to top. Picasso, Rubicon, Tarantula, Stealth and D-Tower, the Reference and Human Reign Unleashed. I know I will be getting a 4 channel Reference as soon as they are availble. He said they are in rout to Soundstream as of yesterday.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

dave_damage said:


> Well the first thing he did was get rid of the entry level Xtream line. His main focus has been on the Reference line. He says he is mare than pleased with the end result of the line, and that believe it or not, blows the originals away. The new Tower and Stealth Series will be 1 and 2 steps above 2008's High line Tarantulas. This is the order from bottom to top. Picasso, Rubicon, Tarantula, Stealth and D-Tower, the Reference and Human Reign Unleashed. I know I will be getting a 4 channel Reference as soon as they are availble. He said they are in rout to Soundstream as of yesterday.


Sewwt, so it looks like sooner than later. I guess he gave me the first quearter as a time frame, incase he said a month and they didnt hit the market.

I will be getting some Ref's when they are available.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

BeatsDownLow said:


> Sewwt, so it looks like sooner than later. I guess he gave me the first quearter as a time frame, incase he said a month and they didnt hit the market.
> 
> I will be getting some Ref's when they are available.


So I take it that the Ref's should be better than the Rubicon? Or at least I hope that it will as the new Rubi's don't seem to be anything to write home about.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

ya the refs are suposed to be better than the old ref, dont know exactly what will be better, maybe just the power supply? I will pick one up on wishful thinking when they are released.

I wouldnt have cared that the rubicon I have makes less power than stated, if it wasnt stated as more 

I am going back to my DLS amps for now, and will try a ref when they are available.

I think I am gonna sell the rubicon I got, if someone is interested.


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

dave_damage said:


> Well the first thing he did was get rid of the entry level Xtream line. His main focus has been on the Reference line. He says he is mare than pleased with the end result of the line, and that believe it or not, blows the originals away. The new Tower and Stealth Series will be 1 and 2 steps above 2008's High line Tarantulas. This is the order from bottom to top. Picasso, Rubicon, Tarantula, Stealth and D-Tower, the Reference and Human Reign Unleashed. I know I will be getting a 4 channel Reference as soon as they are availble. He said they are in rout to Soundstream as of yesterday.


Xtream line was a waste of money at the start for anyone. I hate to know what the return rate on those were.

The whole new line up has some of the old known SS names messed up to what they use to be. Picasso was always on top for their SQ amp. Rubicon wasn't no where near a budget amp and should be above the Reference (IMO (biased)). Rubicon as a mid / budget amp is really a kick in the pants. Human Reign in a sense was a Rubicon. Tarantula I never really cared about. 

I think it's going to mislead some people who remember the past and end up not getting what they expected. People who know, know the names of the amps that made the company, same a PG fans. 

Hope Grizz can change SS but there seems to be a lot of product lines he has to watch over from semi-new start. Thanks for the info.

BTW Grizz needs more Russia :2thumbsup:


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

does anyone know if the Stealth series is going to be class a/b or full range class d?


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## dave_damage (Jul 9, 2008)

Blazemore said:


> Xtream line was a waste of money at the start for anyone. I hate to know what the return rate on those were.
> 
> The whole new line up has some of the old known SS names messed up to what they use to be. Picasso was always on top for their SQ amp. Rubicon wasn't no where near a budget amp and should be above the Reference (IMO (biased)). Rubicon as a mid / budget amp is really a kick in the pants. Human Reign in a sense was a Rubicon. Tarantula I never really cared about.
> 
> ...



I'm drunk at the moment, so Ill just ring in real fast. The Picasso name was destroyed before he got there. He cant take a name that is now known as subpar and make it a top of the line class A product, he has to work with what he has. Thanfuly the Reference name was never anymore tarnished that the Soundsteam of old made it by majing the S and SX amps. He will make things right, but also says if you are looking for real real real high end stuff, look at the new PPI stuf they have coming out. Some of the stuff was going to be under the Soundstream name, but now that they have the PPI name, its going under that. Drunk... Out...


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## dave_damage (Jul 9, 2008)

also, the only thing good that came out of the S, SX amps was the 1002.


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

ahh the stealths are A/B
http://www.soundstream.com/manuals/2009/SS09 web.pdf


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## bighitter6 (Jan 17, 2009)

BeatsDownLow, how much do you want for the 4.600? I'm looking for an amp to run a set of ID components in active mode (front channels running the tweeters and rear running the mids). 

How do you think it would do in that role? 

Ryan


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

dave_damage said:


> I'm drunk at the moment, so Ill just ring in real fast. The Picasso name was destroyed before he got there. He cant take a name that is now known as subpar and make it a top of the line class A product, he has to work with what he has. Thanfuly the Reference name was never anymore tarnished that the Soundsteam of old made it by majing the S and SX amps. He will make things right, but also says if you are looking for real real real high end stuff, look at the new PPI stuf they have coming out. Some of the stuff was going to be under the Soundstream name, but now that they have the PPI name, its going under that. Drunk... Out...


If that is the case then the Rubicon got the short end then. See what PPI has comes to table with.


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## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

That is news to me, I didn't know that PPI was a part of Soundstream.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

I talked to the main rep at ces, and he stated to me that soundstream will be coming out with an old school class a/b that is built in the u.s. He said it ain't gonna be cheap, but would be worth it. None of the products at ces are what he was referring to. just my .02 about the matter


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

bighitter6 said:


> BeatsDownLow, how much do you want for the 4.600? I'm looking for an amp to run a set of ID components in active mode (front channels running the tweeters and rear running the mids).
> 
> How do you think it would do in that role?
> 
> Ryan


pm'd


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

WOW....new refs better than old ref??? I cant wait to see that....I hope they put nuts on the rca jacks to prevent rca inputs from getting broken...thats one of my quirks..I hate stressing a rca thats held on by a tiny screw into a plastic post


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

gentlejax2 said:


> WOW....new refs better than old ref??? I cant wait to see that....I hope they put nuts on the rca jacks to prevent rca inputs from getting broken...thats one of my quirks..I hate stressing a rca thats held on by a tiny screw into a plastic post


I was just thinking the last amp I saw with those RCA was an audiobahn intake, how strange is that. I tested a few and they seemed to work good, but never used one in a car. Yeah, they had to be repaired too.

Old SS are great amps. I ran a little early 300 rub on a few different singe 12s, man that thing put out.


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## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

*Nice to read that they are trying to return their designs to top notch levels.*


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

The '09 catalog is posted to look through. Keeping my eye on the Human Reign Unleashed...another nice looking looking amp.
http://www.soundstream.com/manuals/2009/SS09 web.pdf


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## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

For me, please restore PPI to were they should be and I will be a very happy camper.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

hmm...I liked the specs on some of them.....wonder if they are going to materialize...


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

from what some of the guys at soundstream told me is that they are on the boat on the way over to the states right now and they will be available to buy late next month, if everything is ok


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

The new References and Human Reign Unleashed (price tag ) are for sale now Onlinecarstereo.Com - Wholesale Car Audio/Stereo Deals At Bargain Prices

Now we need some gut pics...again. Testing some waters.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Wow, expensive is right why not make them here for that price. 140rmsx4 sounds pretty stout.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

160 x 4 I like, who is gonna buy the first one? if i could get rid of the rubicon I have I would buy one or 2


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

BeatsDownLow said:


> 160 x 4 I like, who is gonna buy the first one? if i could get rid of the rubicon I have I would buy one or 2


Hoped that would be you again guinea pig


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

i would, but I just dropped $800 on 2 DLS amps last week, let me see what I can do, if I do get one I will probably wait till I get paid so after the first

I am betting they are overrated still, but by how much is the question


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

BeatsDownLow said:


> I am betting they are overrated still, but by how much is the question


And that's the biggest issue for me. They are likely overrated like the new Rubicon's. And with a price tag like that, why in the hell would you even buy one to try out? There are known good amps with more power than that for less money. If Sound Stream wants to make a come back, they need to get things in order. The price would actually be fine with me, if the amps were as good as the OS Ref's.

However, if the power ratings and THD are correct on the Human Reign amps those should be little power houses. The price tags are really high though.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Boostedrex said:


> And that's the biggest issue for me. They are likely overrated like the new Rubicon's. And with a price tag like that, why in the hell would you even buy one to try out? There are known good amps with more power than that for less money. If Sound Stream wants to make a come back, they need to get things in order. The price would actually be fine with me, if the amps were as good as the OS Ref's.


I agree 100% with ya boosted, thats why I went back to my tried and true DLS amps, I have never been let down by them before, just didnt have the right configuration for the 3-way I wanted. 

I dont get why the rubicon was rated at 100rms per channel and the lil wonder was at 80 per channel, same board and guts just alittle different heatsink. I wish i had a big enough power supply to really see what the rubicon is putting out but it cant be more than 75-80 maybe alittle less. I got one of those stingray o-scopes, just not enough juice to do it on the house and its to cold to do it outside here


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

And with that logic, the Ref's could very well be overrated. If I paid $520 for an amp that's supposed to have 160 X 4 only to find out that it's doing 130 X 4, I'd be heated to say the very least. It's a shame too, the new Ref's look GREAT!!!! I miss the OS Sound Stream gear.


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

Wonder if Grizz would show some gut pics?


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Blazemore said:


> Wonder if Grizz would show some gut pics?


write them, they will, i asked about the rub before I bought it, it only took them like 5-6 weeks to respond, by the time they did it was to late I already bought it and opened it up


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

BeatsDownLow said:


> write them, they will, i asked about the rub before I bought it, it only took them like 5-6 weeks to respond, by the time they did it was to late I already bought it and opened it up


Good to know at least that hasn't changed Wanted to buy a shirt and it almost took an act of God for any info. Too bad God wasn't on my side, still don't have a shirt.


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## dave_damage (Jul 9, 2008)

Online Car Stereo is the only authorized on line dealer. Thats why the price is so high. Wait till they hit ebay. A lot of money and time has went into the new Ref's. I dont think they will be anything but perfect!


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

dave_damage said:


> Online Car Stereo is the only authorized on line dealer. Thats why the price is so high. Wait till they hit ebay. A lot of money and time has went into the new Ref's. I dont think they will be anything but perfect!


The price would have to drop by about 50% before I would even entertain the thought of the new Ref's. Sound Stream can think the overrating mistake of their Rubicon line for that. As much as I've always loved/lusted after the old school SS gear, they just been crap for such a long time that it's hard to automatically put faith back into the name. It would be nice to see a return of the old school companies though, so I hope that they've done right by the Reference line.


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## King Nothing (Oct 10, 2005)

Question is this. Will these be .5 ohm stable like the old refs and make tons of power into low impedances? If not, as far as Im concerned you have a good looking run of the mill big 4 channel. If I had to choose between one of these and a zuki it would be zuki every time. Hell, for the difference in price I might even go with one of the big planet audios over the SS. It looks great though


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## dave_damage (Jul 9, 2008)

King Nothing said:


> Question is this. Will these be .5 ohm stable like the old refs and make tons of power into low impedances? If not, as far as Im concerned you have a good looking run of the mill big 4 channel. If I had to choose between one of these and a zuki it would be zuki every time. Hell, for the difference in price I might even go with one of the big planet audios over the SS. It looks great though


No these are not .5 stable. But I dont think they need to be. They have 2 MONO amps if thats what you are looking for. I dont think a high current amp is need in this day and age. who needs a .5 ohm stable 4 channel? Not I.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

+1, I'm with Dave on that one. 4 or 8 ohm loads all around for me thanks.  I don't even need a 2 ohm stable amp. LOL!


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

and to tell you the truth, I can say that they are under rated for sure without getting them on the scope which I havent been able to do, and coming from using amps with alot more power, that may be just the reason I thought it was underrated alittle. 

I would have to think that if they are truely tryin to change things to be better that the ratings should be close.

I will pick up a new ref once they hit Ebay, and by then I will go out and get a huge power supply to test them

So i guess what I am saying is that we cant conclude anything without the proper evidence


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I'm guessing they will be a good amp, you are moving into another market at that price with a lot of good amps in it.


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## dmazyn (Apr 29, 2008)

I would try one out but no imfo on 4ohm power on onlinecarstero. I'm looking for s sub amp to to match my Rubi 202 and Rubi 702 but will just find an 1002/702 on ebay for these prices.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I wish someone had a 4 ohm only 4ch amp, that is the only thing I would use one for anyway. I'd really like a kicking and not huge 4ch to run four 4 ohm speakers at once. Or be able to kick up the rail voltage for 4 ohm use.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

sqshoestring said:


> I wish someone had a 4 ohm only 4ch amp, that is the only thing I would use one for anyway. I'd really like a kicking and not huge 4ch to run four 4 ohm speakers at once. Or be able to kick up the rail voltage for 4 ohm use.


That exact amp is already in production sir. Shoot me a PM if you'd like because I don't want to take this thread off topic.

Zach


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Boostedrex said:


> That exact amp is already in production sir. Shoot me a PM if you'd like because I don't want to take this thread off topic.
> 
> Zach


I am sure I know what that is your refering too....


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## tofmik (Feb 7, 2009)

hey can anybody tell me the difference cause I dont understand that difference. Over here in europe is soundstream rubicon 600-4 put like the high end amp and new cost about 900 euro here some link (Translated version of http://www.zesiky.com/?62,soundstream-rubicon-rub-600-4)

so whats the different? how is possible that the same amp you have like the good amp for start for just 200 $ and over here is put like high end and new cost about 900euro?  thx for reply and answer


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## dave_damage (Jul 9, 2008)

tofmik said:


> hey can anybody tell me the difference cause I dont understand that difference. Over here in europe is soundstream rubicon 600-4 put like the high end amp and new cost about 900 euro here some link (Translated version of http://www.zesiky.com/?62,soundstream-rubicon-rub-600-4)
> 
> so whats the different? how is possible that the same amp you have like the good amp for start for just 200 $ and over here is put like high end and new cost about 900euro?  thx for reply and answer



That is a Rubicon amp from 2002 The amp this thread is about if from 2009. The link you have is of a higher quality item than the 2009 Rubicon. I personally have 2 of the ones you linked us to. If you want one I will give you a good deal. 1 is brand new. and one is used.


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## tofmik (Feb 7, 2009)

ou great. I just bought one and I just found this out and it wasnt good reading . Better dont say the price cause should be a lot more cheaper and I'll be just mad on myself  thx for answer


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## dave_damage (Jul 9, 2008)

Anyone get a new reference yet?


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

dave_damage said:


> Anyone get a new reference yet?


Nope, I have been watching ebay but they arent on there


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

I haven't been on here much in awhile, but was very interested to see that SS was maybe trying to turn their business around. However, that being said, I was really, really disappointed to see that they would sell something with the Rubicon name on it that looked and performed like that. Like others have stated earlier, Rubicon used to be one of SS’s better badges, and to now place it on something that is more or less an entry level wanna be is just plain sad. The casing looks pretty, for what it is, but it is a really old design that was usually reserved for lower class amps, with only a few exceptions.

I was a little hopeful when I saw the post regarding the Euro Rubicon model (hoping that at least the Euro’s were getting some decent models), but really disappointed again to learn it was an earlier model, and more so that they would downgrade the badge name so soon after having made what looked like and probably was a great amp. The overall design and look, during the original Rubicon days, were probably the best SS’s ever built. They went downhill fast about the time they started building those stupid 'Lil Wonder' amps. I mean, what the h*ll was that about?! An amp with no ratings or specs! And while I could appreciate some of the specs from their later 'weird' lines like Human Reign, Tarantula, etc., I really hated the casings and wouldn't have used one if you gave it to me for free. And who the h*ll really needed amps that were stable down to .5 ohms?! Those were pretty much nothing but cheap tricks to gain points at sound-offs, when the rules should have been rewritten to do away with such stupidity. Unlike the early original series such as the D's and Rubicons, which were simple clean, beautiful, rock solid, and built for easy installation, the later models looked like something out of a bad Japanese animation film, and were more complicated to install as well, due to their weird casing designs.

I hope SS does get it together as I have owned their amps since the birth of the company, and have really hated seeing what they have gone through over the last couple of decades. I currently have an original Rubicon 204 and 502 (I am their original owner), which work beautifully together and have been bullet proof. I also have, since their birth, a pair of D200II's (never installed and still in their boxes), which I have been saving for just the perfect classic install, and which might finally take place soon. Here’s hoping SS gets it together and doesn’t screw everything up all over again.


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

Sorry, put this in the wrong place


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

BeatsDownLow said:


> Dave is the one that told me about the newer cheif engineer Karl Cummings and the new line, thanks for the info Dave, I hope to know how she performs tomorrow


FYI - Karl Cummings has not been with us for amost 2 years, maybe a bit more.


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

Chill, nobody has one, but I think my new manuals that were finished yesterday goto print today so amps can ship Monday!!! What a feat! I think I need to celebrate! Anybody around here drink real beer, not the yellow fizzy piss ****?


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

I swear, if the Reference shows up on Ebay, I got a slew of psychos, like Dave Damage that are going to join me in a country wide tour beheading the idiots that try to ruin our industry. You ready Dave. I buy the first round. You still got my sickle?


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Grizz Archer said:


> Chill, nobody has one, but I think my new manuals that were finished yesterday goto print today so amps can ship Monday!!! What a feat! I think I need to celebrate! Anybody around here drink real beer, not the yellow fizzy piss ****?


I'll gladly join you for a beer so long as it's nothing "weaker" than a nice IPA or double IPA.  And if you happen to like Lagunitas, I'll buy the first round!


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Grizz Archer said:


> FYI - Karl Cummings has not been with us for amost 2 years, maybe a bit more.


I was going by what Dave_Damage


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Grizz Archer said:


> I swear, if the Reference shows up on Ebay, I got a slew of psychos, like Dave Damage that are going to join me in a country wide tour beheading the idiots that try to ruin our industry. You ready Dave. I buy the first round. You still got my sickle?


I hope they do, that will be the only way I buy one myself, and they will be there soon after they start shipping


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

sqshoestring said:


> That thing looks like a power acoustik board; some crooked stuff and no SMD, soldered jumpers. On the other hand some old school amps look nasty inside too, it really depends on the design and components used. Is very hard to tell by looking, at least for me. The new alpines made in China some have four layer boards like a PC and lots of SMD, but hard to repair. They are made mostly by machine. IMO how fast they break is about the most important factor.
> 
> Is it [email protected]? A lot of 2x120rms at 4 ohm amps have the same number of transistors as that, but it depends on how good that parts are as to what they will take.


The LWIII and Rubicon boars are brand new and not based of of any other products. However, we will use this platform for possible new projects due to it's success...


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

Love Lagunitas IPA. But You;re to far north. i used to live in Rocklin before moving back down to SoCal. If you were closer I would have you come try my home brew IPA and my Maibock. I am heading to Germany next Friday. There is really only one place that makes the true Maibock. It is a small "microbrewery" called the Vetter which is located behind the chursh in downtown Heidleberg by the castle. I have been trying to master their recipe for 8 years! I go there every to refresh my memory! :^)


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

BeatsDownLow said:


> I hope they do, that will be the only way I buy one myself, and they will be there soon after they start shipping


Why would you want that? Do you realize that Ebay is one of the key factors that destroyed many of the high end products. We all have to make products cheaper for guys who refuse to pay appropriate prices for high end equipment. For example. A badass amp back in the day cost $500. It ends up on Ebay for $300. Now the manufacturer has to make it cheaper and lower quality just so they can make money. Do you realize that at CES for 2010, Audiobahn is obviously out of business, Rockford has not been there for 3 years, Kicker is going to debut their home audio and will not even be in the hall with the car audio guys, JL probably will not show, etc... 

Eventually, if Ebayers and transhippers keep doing their thing, all high end brand will come to and end and all you'll get is nee crap coming out until Ebay ruins it and it becomes no longer profitable.

Alpin just went into Future Shops in Canada. Also in Best Buy and Audio 2001. Every person I talked to during my last trip said that they cannot make more than 18 points, typically 8-10 points. Soundstream is one of the only companies that is not sold at Crutchfield, at Best Buy or any other mass marchant. We have stayed true to our customers and are the only company that can offer hot source units with the same ARM9 chip that is in the iTouch and iPhone and our customers can make 40-45 points!

We are doing everything we can to help the industry,not hurt it. I can tell you this, while I am okay with our couple of online customers, if it does end up on Ebay, brand new for dirt cheap, I will kill the line and close it all out! If people want high end, then they need to support the manufacturers for making it.

Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate you wanting a good price, but the new ones are less than a 10th of the old model on a $ per watt ratio. I like a good deal too and wish I could buy a new Jeep online for cheap, but the ones online really are not that great of a deal.

After a decade of being out of production, I really hope people can appreciate the painstaking measures we went through to bring everybody a new Reference series that is light years better than the originals! Yes, BETTER!!! It would be a shame to watch it be ruined by the very people that wanted it. But that is the American way, right?

I hope you find a great deal, but I pray it is not on eBay. Our contract with Net Enforcers is in full effect and they have been advised that this is the most critical of all of our products. 

Cheers


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Grizz Archer said:


> Why would you want that? Do you realize that Ebay is one of the key factors that destroyed many of the high end products. We all have to make products cheaper for guys who refuse to pay appropriate prices for high end equipment. For example. A badass amp back in the day cost $500. It ends up on Ebay for $300. Now the manufacturer has to make it cheaper and lower quality just so they can make money. Do you realize that at CES for 2010, Audiobahn is obviously out of business, Rockford has not been there for 3 years, Kicker is going to debut their home audio and will not even be in the hall with the car audio guys, JL probably will not show, etc...
> 
> Eventually, if Ebayers and transhippers keep doing their thing, all high end brand will come to and end and all you'll get is nee crap coming out until Ebay ruins it and it becomes no longer profitable.
> 
> ...



By buying off ebay we still support the manufacturers, we just dont support the brick and mortar stores.

So how do the people online get it for cheaper than one of the brick and mortar stores? I dont think they do, as long as you keep selling it for the same prices to whoever turns around and sell it for whatever profit margin, what do you care? Your company will still make the same money and sell the same amount of products. 

Now if you came in here and was talking about protecting your dealers thats one thing, but to say that the manufactuers are hurting because of online sales I dont believe it especially when the vast majority of sales comes form online nowadays.

I would love to try out one of the new ref amp, I had the new rubicons and wasnt impressed with them, maybe the ref will be different, I think with the rubicons I bought into the hype which I always try not to do becuase it never works out


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

BeatsDownLow said:


> By buying off ebay we still support the manufacturers, we just dont support the brick and mortar stores.
> 
> So how do the people online get it for cheaper than one of the brick and mortar stores? I dont think they do, as long as you keep selling it for the same prices to whoever turns around and sell it for whatever profit margin, what do you care? Your company will still make the same money and sell the same amount of products.
> 
> ...


The brick and mortar sore are what keep us in business, not the few harmful sales on Ebay.

When a $500 amps sells for $300 on Ebay, a store will not buy it for $250 since they will not make any money. So a few people get a great deal, but then the line disappears.

So you really think everything should be whored out online? I guess if a person is an enthusiats, they do not wany topay retail prices. Nobody does. But it this reason that so many company have come and gone. Look at Directed. They killed PPI. We bought it and I an working hard on it now. They dropped video which is a bad sign, but good for us. Orion is not what is used to be. I hope you can respectfully appreciate my point of view and I can with yours.

Sorry to hear that you did not like the Rubicon. The fact is that the nerws oness have better specs that the old ones, regardless of ratings. If you do not like the new technologies, don;t spend your money on a new Reference. I doubt you'll like that either as it is truly light years more advanced thanthe originals. They are smarter, WAY CLEANER, and all of the stupid BS is gone...


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## simplyclean (Jan 23, 2009)

BeatsDownLow said:


> By buying off ebay we still support the manufacturers, we just dont support the brick and mortar stores.


Word! But sometimes I will support a brick and mortar store if I see value in it if it's not that much more or I want warranty/receipt and serial numbers. A lot of us don't care about service or support from a dealer because we'd either 1) figure it out ourselves if we have a problem or 2) go directly to the manufacturer. I don't need a demo or be to be sold on it or even look at one. just give me the box. Most of the time the salesperson can't even remember the model number. 



Grizz Archer said:


> The brick and mortar sore are what keep us in business, not the few harmful sales on Ebay.
> 
> When a $500 amps sells for $300 on Ebay, a store will not buy it for $250 since they will not make any money. So a few people get a great deal, but then the line disappears.


What? By selling to brick and mortar stores, the manufacturers get their money. So how is your product ending up on ebay? It's not Ebay's fault or the fault of an enthusiast or hobbyist who sees no value in going to pay msrp when they are doing their own install, of which is where your dealer is making money. In most instances, that $500 amp selling for $300 on ebay (that was transshipped by one of your own dealers for a quick buck) will probably be sold over the counter for a quick sale at your local brick and mortar for $400. 

It's the once American amp companies (except Zapco) that whored out their brand by building crappy lower price point products and building everything under the sun. They destroyed the brand, not Ebay.


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

if people would not buy off ebay the point would be mute. You roll the dice to save a few bucks instead of spending your money locally which is a big fault in our economy and makes it "ok" for all the bad cheaper everything makes. In a race to 0 noone wins even though you think you the consumer are in reality over time youu are just asking for more junk.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I'm sure it is a tough game for amp makers today, but I too can't agree with all of the stuff said. I think people are happy to pay for a good amp, and happy to see the manufacturer make money on it...but not happy to see a brick store make much more on it. Retail has gone the way of either mass retailers like Best Buy/Home Depot/Walmart or online to cut costs and lower the markups. People know better, they don't want to pay some store 100%+ markup. Now if a store really adds enough value, that is fine, but for many of us here at DIY we don't need their expertise if they actually have any. I also buy online because I don't want to go to a store, don't have time, don't need anything from them but the product. I would buy something else online to not have to go to a store for certain products. 

For that same reason, I don't see why companies don't sell their stuff online to the people who can't get or don't want to go to a store. You have to figure out how to protect the area of a store, so pay them a spiff for a purchase in their area or something...but that way you can reach every customer even if the price is the same. There are too many players out there to be exclusive and think you will get some volume/profit in sales.

Maybe now that virtually all amps will be made in China the playing field will even out.


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## simplyclean (Jan 23, 2009)

The brick and mortar can definitely add value by installing it. Anyone who goes to a brick and mortar store and asks questions, gets a demo and then goes on Ebay to buy it is a dirtbag. If they bring the Ebay'ed product back for an install the shop should be charging extra for labor or bench check fees to make up for it, imo.


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## couchflambeau (Apr 18, 2006)

> if people would not buy off ebay the point would be mute.


Not to be a prick but points are MOOT not mute... 



BeatsDownLow said:


> By buying off ebay we still support the manufacturers, we just dont support the brick and mortar stores.


Ya know every time I hear someone write something like that it makes my blood boil... why? I read this board intermittently and the hipocracy of that statement slays me. On one hand people like you claim to be audiophiles and so concerned about the direction of the industry, how outsourcing and moving the manufacturing overseas has killed sound quality and by extension the car audio industry. When I hear statements like the one made above, I'VE GOT ZERO SYMPATHY FOR YOU...

When you cut out the value of the product (i.e. internet/ebay sales), soon the local dealers won't carry the stuff because there's no profit in the product. So begins the downward spiral until a product is whored out the door at obscene low price, but to make that cheap price the product is made overseas and uses a heatsink/PC board that's used in half a dozen other brands/models. 

This failure model has been seen time and again... PPI, Soundstream, Orion, MB Quart, a/d/s.... 

So when you say you don't support local retailers... don't cry when all you can find is SoundStorm, Xplode, Kenford, or whatever other knockoff brand populates the internet. Or when your favorite manufacturer craps the bed and no longer offers high end product with the features you came to expect. After all, by buying off the internet you had a hand in making the industry what it is.

Mr. Archer... as a "life long" Soundstream enthusiast I wish you nothing but the best in trying to breathe some life back into your product line. Though I'm a bit disappointed that the new Ref series isn't the same 1 ohm stable stuff I STILL run after ~15 years, I'm hoping that some of the halmarks of the brand might still come back... sandwiched outputs, mil spec boards, overbuilt power supplies, etc... The new stuff looks a lot like what I remember, but what I'm really looking forward to are some internals pics to see if some of the old techniques are being revived. 

As for internet sales, I hope you have better luck at trying to keep your product out of the gray market. A few other brands are doing their best, but with all the scum bags out there ready to trash a brand to make a dollar, you've got your work cut out foru you.....


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

simplyclean said:


> Word! But sometimes I will support a brick and mortar store if I see value in it if it's not that much more or I want warranty/receipt and serial numbers. A lot of us don't care about service or support from a dealer because we'd either 1) figure it out ourselves if we have a problem or 2) go directly to the manufacturer. I don't need a demo or be to be sold on it or even look at one. just give me the box. Most of the time the salesperson can't even remember the model number.
> 
> Agreed and I am the same way.
> 
> ...


Ebay destroyed the nothing, the qeust for cheap prices and great product did. I have the same quest and am not arguing with you. Ebay sales cannot keep a manufacturer in business. By "whored out", you mean selling the cheap products to Crutchfield, Circuit City, Best Buy, Tweeter, Good Guys and even Wallmart, right? That ****ed everybody. RF was the worst offender and it hurt them desperately. I mean, look at them today! It is sad to see a monster company like that doing so poorly. Know this though... Soundstream never went to those places. And yes, you're right, we do offer less expensive parts now than we did in the day. We have to in order to be competitive in the marketplace. Enthusiasts like you and I don't like retail prices. But imagine if the new Reference amps were $5-$8 per watt like theye were originally! They would never sell in a retail store on even on Ebay. The enthusiast market demands alot these days - High End products at dealer cost! Which is my point - enthusiasts cannot keep a manufacturer in business. We rely on retailers.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Ebay is great place to find used amps of all kinds....stuff you cant find new or at the bm store but I understand the effect it has when it comes to new ones...

I dont know how they get their hands on new amps so how can I blame them for trying to sell them? 

Mr. Archer seems like a good guy to me who cares about the heritage of the old SS ..I am going to see what the new ones bring.


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

simplyclean said:


> The brick and mortar can definitely add value by installing it. Anyone who goes to a brick and mortar store and asks questions, gets a demo and then goes on Ebay to buy it is a dirtbag. If they bring the Ebay'ed product back for an install the shop should be charging extra for labor or bench check fees to make up for it, imo.


Agreed. But I just had a dealer pick up another tiny line bcause he did what you just said and broght the subs bac to install. He won't do it anymore because there is no warranty on products sold online. So if there is ever a problem, he has to eat it. Don't blame him I guess...


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

Over time, and after having worked at brick & mortar stores, I try to support them when I can, but that is limited as I will explain later. I also try to honor the first sales person to help me out, if they are working on commission, as I know what it's like to have spent hours with someone and then have them return for 5 minutes and buy everything from the first salesperson they see.
That being said, I used to (and still do to a degree) dread going anywhere near the stores as a customer, simply because so many of them had (and still do) staff that were pushy, unknowledgeable, scavengers. It was the owners and managers who hired these people, for a quick bottom line dollar, that were to blame. This was by far the biggest turnoff for me, and one that made it easy for me to convert to making online purchases. This all started happening about the time stores started charging obscene amounts for the extended warranties. Wow, what a rip-off. I used to buy them originally, when the prices were quite reasonable. Then someone decided that they could use them to bring up their profits and they started working with the warranty industry to control the prices. I couldn't bring myself to push the things on people, when I worked in the business, because of this and the bad reputation over priced warranties had already developed. That is one reason why I left the business.
I will use authorized online retailers, but avoid ebay ones except as a last resort. I want as much protection as possible for most of my purchases, and I don't blame manufacturers who protect their products and their authorized dealers by limiting warranty protection to units only sold by them. We live in a time when a lot of people don't think twice about buying stuff from the cheapest source out there, pirated or other, and don't really care, or think about for that matter, what effect it has on the manufacturer and their dealers.
If brick and mortar dealers would only clean up their act and make visiting them a more pleasant experience, I would gladly return to them. But there is probably very little chance of that.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Ebay is great place to find used amps of all kinds....stuff you cant find new or at the bm store but I understand the effect it has when it comes to new ones...but I do also agree the reason people buy online is to avoid a 200% markup...I think part of the reason is people have decided they can get more for their money online in most cases ...maybe not 100%

I recall all too well paying 2x what a set of speakers were worth just cause it was supposed to be high end ....same speakers new can be had for 1/4 of what I paid 

I dont know how they(internet sellers ) get their hands on new amps so how can I blame them for trying to sell them? 

Mr. Archer seems like a good guy to me who cares about the heritage of the old SS ..I am going to see what the new ones bring.


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

gentlejax2 said:


> Ebay is great place to find used amps of all kinds....stuff you cant find new or at the bm store but I understand the effect it has when it comes to new ones...but I do also agree the reason people buy online is to avoid a 200% markup...I think part of the reason is people have decided they can get more for their money online in most cases ...maybe not 100%
> 
> I recall all too well paying 2x what a set of speakers were worth just cause it was supposed to be high end ....same speakers new can be had for 1/4 of what I paid
> 
> ...


Mr.?! Buddy, I am not 60 nor do I deserve to be called Mr. or Sir. How about just Grizz, or baldy, or psycho, or Irish beer drinking troll, or anything buy Mr. I'm just another tatooed audio junkie who is working on turning 41... :^)


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

Q-Authority said:


> Over time, and after having worked at brick & mortar stores, I try to support them when I can, but that is limited as I will explain later. I also try to honor the first sales person to help me out, if they are working on commission, as I know what it's like to have spent hours with someone and then have them return for 5 minutes and buy everything from the first salesperson they see.
> That being said, I used to (and still do to a degree) dread going anywhere near the stores as a customer, simply because so many of them had (and still do) staff that were pushy, unknowledgeable, scavengers. It was the owners and managers who hired these people, for a quick bottom line dollar, that were to blame. This was by far the biggest turnoff for me, and one that made it easy for me to convert to making online purchases. This all started happening about the time stores started charging obscene amounts for the extended warranties. Wow, what a rip-off. I used to buy them originally, when the prices were quite reasonable. Then someone decided that they could use them to bring up their profits and they started working with the warranty industry to control the prices. I couldn't bring myself to push the things on people, when I worked in the business, because of this and the bad reputation over priced warranties had already developed. That is one reason why I left the business.
> I will use authorized online retailers, but avoid ebay ones except as a last resort. I want as much protection as possible for most of my purchases, and I don't blame manufacturers who protect their products and their authorized dealers by limiting warranty protection to units only sold by them. We live in a time when a lot of people don't think twice about buying stuff from the cheapest source out there, pirated or other, and don't really care, or think about for that matter, what effect it has on the manufacturer and their dealers.
> If brick and mortar dealers would only clean up their act and make visiting them a more pleasant experience, I would gladly return to them. But there is probably very little chance of that.


I can relate. I ued to love to go to Circuit City or Good Guyd 15-20 years ago and ask the gusy questions because I knew they didn't know ****. Made me feel good in my immature days. Man, I guess that was kind of dick-headed of me. Oh well, I studied hard to learn what I know today...

I agree again. I never buy extended warranties exceopt for cell just phones. You never know when you'll get drunk after a jam session and jump off the rook into the pool with you phone! Or maybe have it drop into a big stein of beer, or... Umm, errr, not that I ever did those things! ;^> But what do you do if you do need warranty service? We will not warranty anything not bought from a retail shop, and I know most other manufacturers are the same way.

It will be interesting. Here is how I see it... Circuit City went under. That's $500m in industry. Tweeter went under which is another $250m or so. Best Buy is cutting back on car audio to try their luck at musical instruments across the country. If it works well, they will go deeper. This is probably about another $150M or so. Vehicle manufacturers confirmed that at least 10 models will be avalable within the next year "stripped". Duh! Stupid asses want to sell more vehicles but do not realize that not everybody has the luxury of being able to afford very expensive stereo systems, power window, power locks, power sindows, powers seats, cruise control, etc, etc. These cars will be able $60 or more less cost per payment! So, all-in-all, there is a billion dollars of industry that is being thrown straight into the independent retailers! I have been training all over the states and Canada and nobody is going out of business. It will never get back to the way it was when I was a kid, but it will get better...

Just my $.02


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

Grizz Archer said:


> I can relate. I ued to love to go to Circuit City or Good Guyd 15-20 years ago and ask the gusy questions because I knew they didn't know ****. Made me feel good in my immature days. Man, I guess that was kind of dick-headed of me. Oh well, I studied hard to learn what I know today...
> 
> I agree again. I never buy extended warranties exceopt for cell just phones. You never know when you'll get drunk after a jam session and jump off the rook into the pool with you phone! Or maybe have it drop into a big stein of beer, or... Umm, errr, not that I ever did those things! ;^> But what do you do if you do need warranty service? We will not warranty anything not bought from a retail shop, and I know most other manufacturers are the same way.
> 
> ...


I was lucky that I got into car audio just as it was being developed (I won't even say how long ago that was!). There were some really knowledgeable shops back then, not a lot of bs, and it was a really exciting time. I lived in San Diego, and as the industry developed I had to endure the likes of Mad Jacks (some of the most annoying commercials of all time), etc. There were some larger high end stores that were actually pretty good, but they faded as competition got worse and more generic stuff came out. There was some really beautiful equipment then. I owned a Harmon Kardon CA-260, which was one of the most beautiful car amps ever made, and which I would probably still have it if it hadn't been ripped off. It used to be really fun to make an occasional trip to a store just to see the new equipment that had come out. Things got developed very fast for awhile. Good times. Now I just sit around in my rocking chair and sip milk of amnesia coolers.
Wow, so Tweeter bought the farm. Can't say that it surprises me. They took over Dow Stereo/Video in San Diego, where I used to work, and redeveloped the stores into unholy, big empty space, freakish monstrosities.
By the way, I am the original owner of and still have two uninstalled SS D200II amps, still in their boxes, with manuals (that’s how long I’ve been around and how lazy/picky I can be about installations). They were to replace a SS D50 and the HK CA-260 that got ripped off, but I decided I couldn’t cut up the car, or amps to make them fit. But they may yet have their day, as I am considering a nostalgic installation, in an ’89 MR2 SC that I now have (same era as the gear). They’ll get matched up with an Alpine 7390 cassette/tuner cd controller, and the matching Alpine 5952s cd changer. And yes, I am the original owner of those, and both are still in the box and have never been installed. I am a living time capsule.


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

I remember Circuit City selling D series Soundstream amps and velvet hammers when they first opened. I remember them selling excelon, premier, and several other brands that were "protected territories" at the time. All brands that stabbed the local retailer in the back.

I guess I'm jaded from being in the industry back in the day but I rarely trust anything a company rep tells me about "integrity" honor" or "promises"

Sales are sales. Period. I'll take my chances on the internet.

Show some gut pics, list some device part numbers, show me more than a pretty extrusion and I might believe you're trying to improve. Nothing personal, just my experience.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

W8 a minute said:


> I remember Circuit City selling D series Soundstream amps and velvet hammers when they first opened. I remember them selling excelon, premier, and several other brands that were "protected territories" at the time. All brands that stabbed the local retailer in the back.
> 
> I guess I'm jaded from being in the industry back in the day but I rarely trust anything a company rep tells me about "integrity" honor" or "promises"
> 
> ...


I agree 100%, it is gonna take alot more than talk to bring back soundstreams "quality" that was (<--- key word there), associated with its name back in the day.


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## simplyclean (Jan 23, 2009)

Grizz Archer said:


> Ebay destroyed the nothing, the qeust for cheap prices and great product did. I have the same quest and am not arguing with you. Ebay sales cannot keep a manufacturer in business. By "whored out", you mean selling the cheap products to Crutchfield, Circuit City, Best Buy, Tweeter, Good Guys and even Wallmart, right? That ****ed everybody. RF was the worst offender and it hurt them desperately. I mean, look at them today! It is sad to see a monster company like that doing so poorly. Know this though... Soundstream never went to those places. And yes, you're right, we do offer less expensive parts now than we did in the day. We have to in order to be competitive in the marketplace. Enthusiasts like you and I don't like retail prices. But imagine if the new Reference amps were $5-$8 per watt like theye were originally! They would never sell in a retail store on even on Ebay. The enthusiast market demands alot these days - High End products at dealer cost! Which is my point - enthusiasts cannot keep a manufacturer in business. We rely on retailers.


I picked up my first CA&E magazine back in 1989ish. I remember when Soundstream was one of names known for making the best amplifiers here in the USA and used in high end car audio systems. Then they "whored" themselves out by making all this cheap crap at every single price point could be sold at flea markets. They killed their own brand. Rockford "sold out" to the chains AND their product went to crap. What's wrong with chain box stores? They sell at retail, and take care of customers. The product is authorized and likely product from them is going to end up on Ebay. You can claim Rockford sold out to Best Buy . How about JL since you can get it at Crutchfield now?. You can also say they whored out because they make everything now at every price point, like all the other manufacturers, but at least they still make good stuff. I am glad they are still around and considering one of their products for a future install. Other than Zapco, there isn't any other brand from back then I would really consider buying because it's all junk now. Manufacturers killed themselves by selling everything under the sun, loosing their brand identity and over saturating the market. 


I used to work in 12V. I sold it for a living. I did what I could for volume and felt I was pretty honest and straight up with people. I didn't sell them more than they needed. I checked over basic installs. On bigger ones, I planned it out for the installer and never had any problem with getting enough time or labor. I kept stuff at msrp and overcame Ebay. I did okay, but the people who were making the real money were the selling people as much stuff as they could to be installed in the least amount of time and dropping their pants on price. I can't justify paying retail because I don't need the extras. I'm willing give to someone a small markup to cover their expenses and give them a small profit by pushing me a box. I know what I want, I have an idea of the margin, that's it. I also spent some time working for a manufacturer and one of my duties was to help people who purchased product from an authorized brick and mortar dealer and where told to go screw. 

But going a little bit back on topic, the OP is interested in a new SS amp. Who cares where he buys it. If it's on Ebay, it's Soundstream's fault they can't control their distribution. Really, what would Soundstream rather have in this guy's vehicle? a Soundstream amp off Ebay or another manufacturers amp?


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

simplyclean said:


> .....l. Other than Zapco, there isn't any other brand from back then I would really consider buying because it's all junk now. Manufacturers killed themselves by selling everything under the sun, loosing their brand identity and over saturating the market.



Zed Audio is about to start production this year on their next line and it will be bad ass..and made in USA....fyi


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

Just no more chrome spiders, please.


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

benny said:


> Just no more chrome spiders, please.


Amen to that!!

Regarding Zapco, when they came out they were really unique, extremely interesting, innovating, and quite good, if not a bit weird in comparison to everyone else. I must say, that of all the manufacturers out there, I thought they would be one of the first ones to go under because of their unique high-end line. I have to give them a lot of credit for sticking around and more or less staying true to their original goal. I'm not sure that they are as truly unique as they used to be, but probably not that far from it, in some respects.
If they had not used such proprietary connections, from day one, I might have become a dedicated Zapco user. I just always had a bit of an issue with companies that did this. Pioneer actually had one, with a very early sleek silver plated cassette/super tuner amp combo, which I once had. It was a great sounding and unique combo, but I soon got fed up with the proprietary connection idea after one piece died and the other became useless, when the whole proprietary connection line was dropped. So, as much as I liked Zapco, I wasn't going to fall for that again.


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

Q-Authority said:


> Amen to that!!
> 
> Regarding Zapco, when they came out they were really unique, extremely interesting, innovating, and quite good, if not a bit weird in comparison to everyone else. I must say, that of all the manufacturers out there, I thought they would be one of the first ones to go under because of their unique high-end line. I have to give them a lot of credit for sticking around and more or less staying true to their original goal. I'm not sure that they are as truly unique as they used to be, but probably not that far from it, in some respects.
> If they had not used such proprietary connections, from day one, I might have become a dedicated Zapco user. I just always had a bit of an issue with companies that did this. Pioneer actually had one, with a very early sleek silver plated cassette/super tuner amp combo, which I once had. It was a great sounding and unique combo, but I soon got fed up with the proprietary connection idea after one piece died and the other became useless, when the whole proprietary connection line was dropped. So, as much as I liked Zapco, I wasn't going to fall for that again.


Yea, they make a great product. They are a small company so they can still get away with opperating like one. We're too massive to do that unfortunately. I respect Zeff's work...

Dude, I remember the 3-piece amps with 1/4" phono plugs on top! Would kill to have one of those in my collection...


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

Grizz Archer said:


> Yea, they make a great product. They are a small company so they can still get away with opperating like one. We're too massive to do that unfortunately. I respect Zeff's work...
> 
> Dude, I remember the 3-piece amps with 1/4" phono plugs on top! Would kill to have one of those in my collection...


But do you remember when such players as Grundig (I had two of their eq's), were part of the car audio scene, and Radio Shack actually made a very popular underdash cassette/radio unit. Good times!:laugh:


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

Grizz Archer said:


> Yea, they make a great product. They are a small company so they can still get away with opperating like one. We're too massive to do that unfortunately. I respect Zeff's work...
> 
> Dude, I remember the 3-piece amps with 1/4" phono plugs on top! Would kill to have one of those in my collection...


BTW, I'm going after Zapco at SBN next year. They do well there. I sent the first SQ guy in many years, He took 2nd for his very first event and with Tarantula amps. Not even Refs. Zapco is one of the top companies at SBN. Very respectful. Now I have the toys to do it...


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

Q-Authority said:


> But do you remember when such players as Grundig (I had two of their eq's), were part of the car audio scene, and Radio Shack actually made a very popular underdash cassette/radio unit. Good times!:laugh:


Oh hell yeah! Ok old guy, do you rememeber Craigh Power Play or Jet Sound Electronincs? How about Deltasonik? :^)


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

Grizz Archer said:


> BTW, I'm going after Zapco at SBN next year. They do well there. I sent the first SQ guy in many years, He took 2nd for his very first event and with Tarantula amps. Not even Refs. Zapco is one of the top companies at SBN. Very respectful. Now I have the toys to do it...


Just to point out that for SBN 2009 most of the top Zapco guys did not attend. In fact I don't know of any Team members that competed this year. Most went with MECA for finals and that was it. BTW the Zapco Ref. amps have done well at SBN in Matt R. truck over the years at SBN.

So you guys had a car this year at SBN and if so who was it that took 2nd? or Is this at some other show other than SBN, DSN, Tulsa or one of the other major shows.

Was the car running SS speakers also?
Are you guys trying to bring back or put together an SS Team now?

BTW-I stand corrected Steve McIntyre and Kick Proffitt were there. Steve is running REF amps and finished 4th in Pro for INAC, 2nd in Pro for SBN23, 7th in MECA modified and 2nd in modified install MECA. Kirk placed 1st MECA stock street, 1st in install street MECA.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Grizz Archer said:


> Yea, they make a great product. They are a small company so they can still get away with opperating like one. We're too massive to do that unfortunately. I respect Zeff's work...
> 
> Dude, I remember the 3-piece amps with 1/4" phono plugs on top! Would kill to have one of those in my collection...


IIRC, Zeff doesn't design for Zapco anymore. But their gear is still very solid and I dig it!

A possible Team SS resurrection huh? That could be interesting.....


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

Genxx said:


> Just to point out that for SBN 2009 most of the top Zapco guys did not attend. In fact I don't know of any Team members that competed this year. Most went with MECA for finals and that was it. BTW the Zapco Ref. amps have done well at SBN in Matt R. truck over the years at SBN.
> 
> So you guys had a car this year at SBN and if so who was it that took 2nd? or Is this at some other show other than SBN, DSN, Tulsa or one of the other major shows.
> 
> ...


Yeah, alot of people did not want to spend the cash to go this year. But Zapco had guys there. Not sure if they were on the team per say, but they were there. My guy was Jeff Moolevliet. It was his first competition, so he was in the SQi class. lost a point for his registration issue and more points for not having his reverse mounted sub wire tied down close enough to the woofer. I had no idea this was a rule, but I do not know the rule book well anyway. He was up against a $20k system in a Skyline GTR I believe. He was using all Soundstream speakers. RW subs, and some prototype 3-way components I am working on for later release either under Soundstream or PPI. For a first time out, I was stoked! My SPL guys are tearing it up, but yes, I am really focusing on building a SQ team this year for Soundstream and PPI next year...


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

Grizz Archer said:


> Oh hell yeah! Ok old guy, do you rememeber Craigh Power Play or Jet Sound Electronincs? How about Deltasonik? :^)


Ha, ha, ha! I think Deltasonic was the really cool brand that I always have a hard time trying to remember their name. One of my favorite privately run shops in Kearny Mesa had them, but I was too poor at the time to get any of their stuff. From what I remember, their catalog had some of the neatest really unusual car audio gear I have ever seen. I really used to drool over the stuff. This was about the time a speaker company by the name of Magnum, was making really decent, if you can believe it 6"x9" component sets, of which I had a couple of sets. Hell, I even had a pair or two of Jensen’s original triaxial 6"x9"s at one time, maybe even their quadaxials.:laugh:
Regarding Craig, oh hell yeah! I actually believe they made one of the very first separate amps, of all time (about 25 watts a channel), and it looked a lot like a transformer (sort of like the original Jacobs Accuvolt). This was back in the day when Vons/Safeway actually had electrical/camera departments, sort of like K-Mart. I bought one of these in a Safeway/Vons in San Diego, and was way, way cool.
Ooops, time for my medication, I can see the nurse on her way. Ahh, the cool relaxing grip of thorazine!


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

Q-Authority said:


> Ha, ha, ha! I think Deltasonic was the really cool brand that I always have a hard time trying to remember their name. One of my favorite privately run shops in Kearny Mesa had them, but I was too poor at the time to get any of their stuff. From what I remember, their catalog had some of the neatest really unusual car audio gear I have ever seen. I really used to drool over the stuff. This was about the time a speaker company by the name of Magnum, was making really decent, if you can believe it 6"x9" component sets, of which I had a couple of sets. Hell, I even had a pair or two of Jensen’s original triaxial 6"x9"s at one time, maybe even their quadaxials.:laugh:
> Regarding Craig, oh hell yeah! I actually believe they made one of the very first separate amps, of all time (about 25 watts a channel), and it looked a lot like a transformer (sort of like the original Jacobs Accuvolt). This was back in the day when Vons/Safeway actually had electrical/camera departments, sort of like K-Mart. I bought one of these in a Safeway/Vons in San Diego, and was way, way cool.
> Ooops, time for my medication, I can see the nurse on her way. Ahh, the cool relaxing grip of thorazine!


Yeah, Deltasonik and Alphasionik came out at the same time more or less. But poor Delta was forgotten. Magnum?! Actually, that was a subsidiary of MTX way back in the day. Do you remember M&M Godfathers?! Whoa, pulled that one out of my ass!

Oh yeah, and when you were done dreaming about buying the amp, you could get a triple scoop of ice cream for abour $0.60. I always chose Chocolate Malted Crunch! :^) Well you proved it, you're at least my age or close... Too bad! ;^>


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

Grizz Archer said:


> Yeah, Deltasonik and Alphasionik came out at the same time more or less. But poor Delta was forgotten. Magnum?! Actually, that was a subsidiary of MTX way back in the day. Do you remember M&M Godfathers?! Whoa, pulled that one out of my ass!
> 
> Oh yeah, and when you were done dreaming about buying the amp, you could get a triple scoop of ice cream for abour $0.60. I always chose Chocolate Malted Crunch! :^) Well you proved it, you're at least my age or close... Too bad! ;^>


Oh sure, I remember Alphasonik as well. A friend of mine had one of their amps in his Vette. They made some decent stuff from time to time, but I never cared for any of the brands that placed their connections on the ends of the amps and used molex plugs.
I believe Deltasonik was a European brand, at least the one I am thinking of, and had components, the likes of which, I have never seen duplicated, even to this day.
So, an old fart in kid's sheep clothing, hey!


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

Q-Authority said:


> Oh sure, I remember Alphasonik as well. A friend of mine had one of their amps in his Vette. They made some decent stuff from time to time, but I never cared for any of the brands that placed their connections on the ends of the amps and used molex plugs.
> I believe Deltasonik was a European brand, at least the one I am thinking of, and had components, the likes of which, I have never seen duplicated, even to this day.
> So, an old fart in kid's sheep clothing, hey!


The Deltasonik we had was nothing too special and was not as elaborate as what you are describing. Hmmm... I'll have to thinkabout that one. I leave Germany Friday, so I'll grab every car audio mag like I normally do and will look to see if I can find out something...


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

Grizz Archer said:


> The Deltasonik we had was nothing too special and was not as elaborate as what you are describing. Hmmm... I'll have to thinkabout that one. I leave Germany Friday, so I'll grab every car audio mag like I normally do and will look to see if I can find out something...


It must be another brand then, but the 'sonik' part seems to ring a bell, and it might have been German as well, but not sure? Thyey were quite rare over here. I have tried to remember their name for years, but have failed. They had a really big catalog of component parts, at the time, way ahead of everyone else, and also priced above almost everyone else, but worth it. They were, I believe, only add-on components, not head units or even speakers, just unbelievably cool eq's and stuff that was so complex at the time, I can't recall exactly what they did (sort of like a European Zapco, but even more strange). H*ll, I'd be happy to have a system comprised of their stuff today. It would compare to the really great home audio amps, etc. of the 60's and 70's.


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## simplyclean (Jan 23, 2009)

Q-Authority said:


> Regarding Zapco, when they came out they were really unique, extremely interesting, innovating, and quite good, if not a bit weird in comparison to everyone else. I must say, that of all the manufacturers out there, I thought they would be one of the first ones to go under because of their unique high-end line. I have to give them a lot of credit for sticking around and more or less staying true to their original goal. I'm not sure that they are as truly unique as they used to be, but probably not that far from it, in some respects.
> If they had not used such proprietary connections, from day one, I might have become a dedicated Zapco user. I just always had a bit of an issue with companies that did this. Pioneer actually had one, with a very early sleek silver plated cassette/super tuner amp combo, which I once had. It was a great sounding and unique combo, but I soon got fed up with the proprietary connection idea after one piece died and the other became useless, when the whole proprietary connection line was dropped. So, as much as I liked Zapco, I wasn't going to fall for that again.


I last bought amps 10 years ago. (I lost interest in car audio shortly after until just recently) I didn't consider Zapco at the time. I was considering back then PPI power class, Phoenix ZX, but ended up with Xtant A series. More recently, I wanted something new and keep my new system nostalgic using a brand from back in the day when american amps were king. I ended up with some DC Refs. It's interesting how with their PITA connections, they are still around and it's still sort of confusing figure out how to connect them and the extras you need to buy.

Grizz, Sorry if it looks like I'm crapping on Soundstream. I'm not trying to. I'm just ranting about how things aren't the way they used to be and trying to get my post count up so I can post in the classifieds. I used to droll over their stuff years ago in magazines before I could even drive. MC140s, SS-10s, D100s, MC300s, TC-308s, those are model numbers I'm randomly typing out off the top of my head. It would really be nice to see if a premium company from the past could make a comeback.

I'm getting back into this hobby after loosing interest years ago. I can't believe how many hours I've spent here in the past few months. I'm stoked to have a fresh new system in my new car soon. Thanks for the and civilized intelligent conversation guys, it's such a nice change to from the kids in the Honda forums where I have wasted so much of my life.


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

simplyclean said:


> I last bought amps 10 years ago. (I lost interest in car audio shortly after until just recently) I didn't consider Zapco at the time. I was considering back then PPI power class, Phoenix ZX, but ended up with Xtant A series. More recently, I wanted something new and keep my new system nostalgic using a brand from back in the day when american amps were king. I ended up with some DC Refs. It's interesting how with their PITA connections, they are still around and it's still sort of confusing figure out how to connect them and the extras you need to buy.
> 
> Grizz, Sorry if it looks like I'm crapping on Soundstream. I'm not trying to. I'm just ranting about how things aren't the way they used to be and trying to get my post count up so I can post in the classifieds. I used to droll over their stuff years ago in magazines before I could even drive. MC140s, SS-10s, D100s, MC300s, TC-308s, those are model numbers I'm randomly typing out off the top of my head. It would really be nice to see if a premium company from the past could make a comeback.
> 
> I'm getting back into this hobby after loosing interest years ago. I can't believe how many hours I've spent here in the past few months. I'm stoked to have a fresh new system in my new car soon. Thanks for the and civilized intelligent conversation guys, it's such a nice change to from the kids in the Honda forums where I have wasted so much of my life.


Its all good man. The new REFs are as good as it is going to get as far as brining back the old stuff, for now. Don't think we can do any better! Know what you mean about forums. I got away from them in 98 when I left MTX and stayed away until last week. I hate the primadonna little ***** kids whop think they know everything. After 26 years, and studying under one of the last living gurus of audio, I realize that I know jack ****! if it gets like that around here, I'm gone! But you'll alwasy know where to find me for some cool "old guy" talk! ;^)


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## rockytophigh (Apr 16, 2008)

simplyclean said:


> I last bought amps 10 years ago. (I lost interest in car audio shortly after until just recently) I didn't consider Zapco at the time. I was considering back then PPI power class, Phoenix ZX, but ended up with Xtant A series. More recently, I wanted something new and keep my new system nostalgic using a brand from back in the day when american amps were king. I ended up with some DC Refs. It's interesting how with their PITA connections, they are still around and it's still sort of confusing figure out how to connect them and the extras you need to buy.
> 
> Grizz, Sorry if it looks like I'm crapping on Soundstream. I'm not trying to. I'm just ranting about how things aren't the way they used to be and trying to get my post count up so I can post in the classifieds. I used to droll over their stuff years ago in magazines before I could even drive. MC140s, SS-10s, D100s, MC300s, TC-308s, those are model numbers I'm randomly typing out off the top of my head. It would really be nice to see if a premium company from the past could make a comeback.
> 
> I'm getting back into this hobby after loosing interest years ago. I can't believe how many hours I've spent here in the past few months. I'm stoked to have a fresh new system in my new car soon. Thanks for the and civilized intelligent conversation guys, it's such a nice change to from the kids in the Honda forums where I have wasted so much of my life.


As a teen, I actually saved and bought a MC500 brand new back in the day.


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

rockytophigh said:


> As a teen, I actually saved and bought a MC500 brand new back in the day.


Damn, what did you do?! Beat up other kids and take their lunch money? ;^) Hey desperate desires require desperate measures, right?


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Grizz Archer said:


> Damn, what did you do?! Beat up other kids and take their lunch money? ;^) Hey desperate desires require desperate measures, right?


That's what I'm sayin'! I had to save for FOREVER back in my high school days just to afford the 2 PPI black Art Series amps that I was lusting over for my install.


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

Boostedrex said:


> That's what I'm sayin'! I had to save for FOREVER back in my high school days just to afford the 2 PPI black Art Series amps that I was lusting over for my install.


So you wwere one of those kids I hated and tried to keep up with using less-than equipment!


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Grizz Archer said:


> So you wwere one of those kids I hated and tried to keep up with using less-than equipment!


Nah, I used the same less than equipment for forever and a day. Those PPI's were the only noteworth piece of gear in my truck back then. Everything else was used and I was typically the 3rd or 4th owner of it. I just had a couple of REALLY good mentors that were involved with IASCA SQ stuff back then and they helped me to "see the light" as it were. 

Actually, most of what they instilled in me is still there. Take my system for example, taking budget drivers and focusing on a quality install/tuning in order to get the level of sound I want instead of throwing tons of money at high end gear and having a crap install. Though I do have some pretty nice gear in my hu and amps.  Everything else is pretty inexpensive though.


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## simplyclean (Jan 23, 2009)

Grizz Archer said:


> Its all good man. The new REFs are as good as it is going to get as far as brining back the old stuff, for now. Don't think we can do any better! Know what you mean about forums. I got away from them in 98 when I left MTX and stayed away until last week. I hate the primadonna little ***** kids whop think they know everything. After 26 years, and studying under one of the last living gurus of audio, I realize that I know jack ****! if it gets like that around here, I'm gone! But you'll alwasy know where to find me for some cool "old guy" talk! ;^)


lol, my was stint shorter, but I think it was pretty decent experience. I spent some time @ Quart when they were still Quart and then did retail at one of the original Tweeter stores before they went under. We had Sound In Motion and Rich's Car Tunes around the corner and I got some of their customers once in a while which was felt like an big achievement. I'm looking though this forum and realize I know jack **** too, but that's okay because it's a hobby again and it will just help be build a better system. It's a lot more fun when you don't do this stuff for a living that's for sure.


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## rockytophigh (Apr 16, 2008)

Hell no.....not unless they deserved it. I worked 3 jobs, 7 days a week. I made $6 a hour at one, got off and waited tables at night, and on off days worked construction for a friend's dad for $8 a hour. Big money back in the day, lol. Isn't it weird how I actually had money back then, now after college, a good paying job, I struggle all the damn time?


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

rockytophigh said:


> Hell no.....not unless they deserved it. I worked 3 jobs, 7 days a week. I made $6 a hour at one, got off and waited tables at night, and on off days worked construction for a friend's dad for $8 a hour. Big money back in the day, lol. Isn't it weird how I actually had money back then, now after college, a good paying job, I struggle all the damn time?


Ah, the good old debt to income ratio. LOL! It gets the best of us my friend.


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## rockytophigh (Apr 16, 2008)

Boostedrex said:


> Ah, the good old debt to income ratio. LOL! It gets the best of us my friend.


Well, that and a divorce....new wife, and a kid add to the good ole ratio. Private school isn't cheap and apparently someone needs shoes every week.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Exactly why I told my wife that there are MUCH cheaper alternatives than divorce. And we don't have any kids. LOL!


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## ___H (Apr 9, 2009)

Grizz Archer said:


> Oh hell yeah! Ok old guy, do you rememeber Craigh Power Play or Jet Sound Electronincs? How about Deltasonik? :^)



Absolutely! My first install was a Craig Power Play AM/FM/cassette with the matching surface-mount speakers. In my purple 1973 AMC Gremlin.  Circa 1981.

Also installed JSE stuff in quite a few cars in the mid to late 80's. Think I may still have some of it laying around my garage somewhere..


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

___H said:


> Absolutely! My first install was a Craig Power Play AM/FM/cassette with the matching surface-mount speakers. In my purple 1973 AMC Gremlin.  Circa 1981.
> 
> Also installed JSE stuff in quite a few cars in the mid to late 80's. Think I may still have some of it laying around my garage somewhere..


Holy crap! You rock dude! I would kil to have that purple Gremlin!! I have a Pioneer 8-track player that I took out of a very old boat that is great condition. Even got the 8-track to cassette adaptor for it as well. The owner was high tech baby!


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## billw (Jun 30, 2008)

I know I'm a few days late, but try this example for anyone who doesn't see how ebay devalues products and ruins companies.

Let's say SS has 10 dealers selling 10 amps per week. That's 100 amps per week. Now, a dealer starts seeling the same amps on ebay for 35% less. Because of the lower price, he sells 30 amps per week, by himself.

Now, the 10 dealers stop selling the amps because they cant make money on them. So, instead of selling 100 amps per week, SS sells 30 amps per week. Then, SS decides to discontinue the amps because they lost 70% of their business. And now the ebay dealer has no amps to sell either. And the consumer has none to buy.

Get it now?


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

when there is nothing left to ho out and the only way to get it is via the net prices will go up because they can actually make money andbecause the costs on not so massed produced items will go up....


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

billw said:


> I know I'm a few days late, but try this example for anyone who doesn't see how ebay devalues products and ruins companies.
> 
> Let's say SS has 10 dealers selling 10 amps per week. That's 100 amps per week. Now, a dealer starts seeling the same amps on ebay for 35% less. Because of the lower price, he sells 30 amps per week, by himself.
> 
> ...


Nope dont get it, the way I see it is he sells 30 amps on ebay, so instead they just sold 120 instead of 100, or option 2 the other dealers see this and they each sell 30 amps on ebay or the internet so now you got 160 instead of 100, and that only if 2 more sell this supposed number on ebay


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> Nope dont get it, the way I see it is he sells 30 amps on ebay, so instead they just sold 120 instead of 100, or option 2 the other dealers see this and they each sell 30 amps on ebay or the internet so now you got 160 instead of 100, and that only if 2 more sell this supposed number on ebay


no proffit no reason to sell. there is not as infinate amount of car audio buffs as you think..race to zero is bad..not only is it bad is spells extinction regardless if you believe it or not.


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## billw (Jun 30, 2008)

Not if only 30 people on ebay want to buy them. It doesn't matter if one dealer or ten dealers are selling them. It's still only 30 amps sold.

And once ebay erodes the price, SS loses the first 100 amps in sales. Furthermore, when dealers stop selling and recommending the amps, the ebay dealer sells fewer as well, since his sales were dependent of buzz created by the b+m dealers. 

And the line/company goes out of business. No comapny can lose 70% of their business and survive.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I think you have two customers: one has to go to a dealer because they can't install it and/or they want the service/install. Second is people who don't need any help or just plain don't have the coin to pay much, and they will buy online or used no matter what. You can try to service both or one group. A company can choose to do whatever, but ebay and other online sales are there to stay you take advantage of them or you don't. This is the USA, we have a retarded government that screws everything up but I have confidence in the people and business....they can find a way if they want to.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Audiolife said:


> no proffit no reason to sell. there is not as infinate amount of car audio buffs as you think..race to zero is bad..not only is it bad is spells extinction regardless if you believe it or not.


Can any of you give me the names of companies that had to close down because of internet sales? Then can you prove to me it was because of internet sales and not being run bad internally, if you can you then I would change my opinion on it, until them I wont.

Soundstream went to crap because somebody got greedy and most likely figured they could make cheaper amps overseas and sell them on the reputation they once had, someone made the choice, not the masses


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## couchflambeau (Apr 18, 2006)

Suppose you'd probably have to SEE God to believe in him too....

I hope your favorite car audio manufacturer goes out of business....


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> Can any of you give me the names of companies that had to close down because of internet sales? Then can you prove to me it was because of internet sales and not being run bad internally, if you can you then I would change my opinion on it, until them I wont.


Easy ask any retailer or manufacturer if the market has been getting larger or smaller over the last 20 years. Where are all the magizines at now? how big was CES this year? Where are all the retailer news mags? Not only are they leaving they no longer have websites and IF they do no longer update them! Eventually you will just have cookie cutter amps with 90% of the same parts on them rebadged as someone elses. :laugh:


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## couchflambeau (Apr 18, 2006)

When Car Audio Mag bit the dirt a year or two ago they pretty much indicatied that the internet was the cause of the downfall of their print copy magazine... the online barely keeps a spot on the internet. Just waiting for the day that it's T-U as well...


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

billw said:


> Not if only 30 people on ebay want to buy them. It doesn't matter if one dealer or ten dealers are selling them. It's still only 30 amps sold.
> 
> And once ebay erodes the price, SS loses the first 100 amps in sales. Furthermore, when dealers stop selling and recommending the amps, the ebay dealer sells fewer as well, since his sales were dependent of buzz created by the b+m dealers.
> 
> And the line/company goes out of business. No comapny can lose 70% of their business and survive.



so your telling me the other guy who sells 30 of them isnt making anything ..he is doing it for shots and giggles? if he can do it then so will someone else....there is always multiple people selling same thing on ebay or anyone else..

I know your just trying to make a simple example but ...if dealers didnt overprice their stuff to begin with then more people would buy direct as they could go in and get it in their hand instant and not have to wait..

there is a so called high end dealer here in town..sold me 2 pairs of speakers years ago..like I said...ripped me off cause they could.....

I wont go in that store for anything and only idiots or people with too much money and no sense still keep that place open...

I went into another place recently and saw a set of Diamond Hex comps exactly like the ones I had gotten off the net...they wanted more than 3 times what I paid....I honestly think it was more than retail...why ? I guess they had the idea that a dumb punk is born every minute...

I talked a few minutes with the owner about some old school stuff and left....and I will not support him...so that he can ride around in his $40K car and live in a $300K house on my back..

If local stores want to stay in business they need to be competitive or find ways to give more value for the buck....

I wouldnt mind paying more than ebay prices but not 300% more or whatever they want..

I am not a slave to the brick and mortar guys....

thats just my take...and I have been in retail and I know what it takes to compete with the giants like Walmart...it takes hard work and better prices no matter what it is


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

couchflambeau said:


> When Car Audio Mag bit the dirt a year or two ago they pretty much indicatied that the internet was the cause of the downfall of their print copy magazine... the online barely keeps a spot on the internet. Just waiting for the day that it's T-U as well...


more than 1 mag has bit the dust over the last 3 years


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

couchflambeau said:


> When Car Audio Mag bit the dirt a year or two ago they pretty much indicatied that the internet was the cause of the downfall of their print copy magazine... the online barely keeps a spot on the internet. Just waiting for the day that it's T-U as well...


all print media is on the downfall.....look at how many papers and magazines are folding....yeah...I contribute that to internet.....


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## couchflambeau (Apr 18, 2006)

That was the only one I really followed after Car Stereo Review closed up eons before.... Seems when CSR shut down, the industry has been all down hill since, then along came Ebay.... yeay!! :/

And there has not been a single publication that came close to the info value that came out of CSR IMO, other than perhaps forums like these. When the likes of RC, Navone, and Mark Eldridge printed something in CSR it was pretty dependable. No knock on forums like this, but it just isn't the same as a paper magazine in the hand. 

So is life on the interweb... but that facet of life sucks.

Meanwhile... I think it's a proven fact that internet sales, mass market, poor management, AND poor support of retailers has all played into the demise of some good product.... But I really think you'd have to be obtuse NOT to think that graymarket product like you find on EBay haven't played a huge role in that demise.


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

gentlejax2 said:


> so your telling me the other guy who sells 30 of them isnt making anything ..he is doing it for shots and giggles? if he can do it then so will someone else....there is always multiple people selling same thing on ebay or anyone else..
> 
> I know your just trying to make a simple example but ...if dealers didnt overprice their stuff to begin with then more people would buy direct as they could go in and get it in their hand instant and not have to wait..
> 
> ...


most ebay prices are near, AT or BELOW what a dealer pays for it and IF a net dealer sells 30 of an item I bet they make far less than what you think. Those net dealers rely on a distributor or a store front that buys in quantity when there are less and less stores out there they buy less quantity and the price either goes up or the QUALITY goes down....
I also bet IF you actually are in retail you are so at a tangent of the product they sell. If not unless you can BUY as much as an entire wal mart warehouse you will always lose the race to 0 because you pay more for the EXACT samething


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Audiolife said:


> most ebay prices are near, AT or BELOW what a dealer pays for it and IF a net dealer sells 30 of an item I bet they make far less than what you think. Those net dealers rely on a distributor or a store front that buys in quantity when there are less and less stores out there they buy less quantity and the price either goes up or the QUALITY goes down....
> I also bet IF you actually are in retail you are so at a tangent of the product they sell. If not unless you can BUY as much as an entire wal mart warehouse you will always lose the race to 0 because you pay more for the EXACT samething



I was in retail...for the last 12yrs...I am not now....

but I worked for a small family company from the ground up and we were consistantly able to keep up with any retail store in our market which was multi state wide....we were out in public 6 months out of the year ...the rest of the time we were preparing and shopping and busting but to get our product together....

my salary was paid for a year in advance along with the rest of the personal because we had a strict business model and knew how to do it....we blew everyone else out with our prices...yes it had to do with volume and yes it had to do with selection

it wasnt car audio....no....

but anyhow....not going to sit here and argue with you over it....

fact is plenty of brick and mortar stores are over priced and get what they deserve by being stupid...look at CC .....

if you take the 2 examples I gave then you shouldnt have any reason to support any business who is purposely overpricing themselves out of peoples pockets....


I would rather sell 100 of something and make 20% profit than try to sell 25 and make 100% ....you must realize every day costs money.....


anyhow...I already said if a company local has more reasonable prices then I would buy local


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## couchflambeau (Apr 18, 2006)

CC really isn't your typical model high overhead brick and mortar high end car audio retailer... that's what we refer to as Mass Market... I don't really think they relate to the context of this discussion...


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

of course magazines go out, thast a given and its a good thing if you ask me, we dont need to use all that paper when there is a wealth of knowledge at our finger tips, and more than any magazine ever published.

I thought we were talking about car audio manufacturers here


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

couchflambeau said:


> That was the only one I really followed after Car Stereo Review closed up eons before.... Seems when CSR shut down, the industry has been all down hill since, then along came Ebay.... yeay!! :/
> 
> And there has not been a single publication that came close to the info value that came out of CSR IMO, other than perhaps forums like these. When the likes of RC, Navone, and Mark Eldridge printed something in CSR it was pretty dependable. No knock on forums like this, but it just isn't the same as a paper magazine in the hand.
> 
> ...



Still havent seen any proof of this


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## couchflambeau (Apr 18, 2006)

They were part of the industry... and when many of the high end mfgrs started going under, they were casualties... but I suppose back to the arguement at hand... lol!


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## caver50 (Sep 2, 2007)

Just thought I would let yall know that, I have that exact amp (Rub4.600) In fact it came from beatsdownlow and I'am completely satisfied. It runs the TBI tweets and the RS100's... sweet Thanks again Scott.


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

What a bunch of crap. Internet sales do nothing but HELP the manufacturers. People buy from the internet because they're smart enough not to pay the B&M price. These people, like me, would have NEVER paid the retail price. I've spent several thousands on ebay car audio for NEW items from Boston, Pioneer, Stinger, AudioControl, Alpine, and Kicker. If it wasn't for the internet these companies would have received exactly ZERO dollars from me. After I quit installing there were several years I did without any new car audio because I was not going to pay the retail price. And I was fine with that and would have been for the rest of my life. Then I found the internet and I'm back.

The absolute smartest thing companies could do is create relationships on car related forums. Give out a few freebies to people to test and evaluate and watch the word spread. Hell, THIS site has a Klippel for God's sake. If you have a good product you should do well. Although I think the companies should pick who gets to evaluate instead of just handing them out in a contest. No telling what kind of douche could be installing and evaluating your product. Look what the big 12" shootout did for the retailers that scored well.

How many Kicker products do you see on eBay? TONS. Do you really think Kicker doesn't know where these items are coming from and know how to stop it? They do, but they got paid so why bother? And honestly, I haven't been let down by a single Kicker product I've purchased from eBay. It might not be audiophile equipment but for the average buyer it performs well and sounds pretty good if installed correctly. They've managed to maintain some sort of QC and I think the reputation is still intact. The internet didn't kill them. In fact, if I was Kicker I'd be on this forum (or another, or all of them) running my own technical training threads. (they could pay me sort through or field questions since I'm here so often anyway  Hint Hint)

Also, look at how many companies that have started in the last 5 years or more that are, or were, internet only companies?

The internet door has been opened and there's no way to close it. So either embrace it or die. This is almost as bad as the record companies trying to stop downloading. Good luck with that.

On the other hand Grizz. I hope you do bring the Soundstream name back, but I'll have to wait until it hits eBay before I'll try it.


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## couchflambeau (Apr 18, 2006)

Riddle me this then... if Internet sales didn't affect the manufacturer... why would high end marques like JL, Zapco, etc so rigidly enforce their attempts to curtail ebay sales of their products? Why would Soundstream be so concerned that their new models not end up on the ebay chopping block? 

I think you need to talk to the likes of Manville Smith from JL, I'm sure he could explain the error of your thought process.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

couchflambeau said:


> Riddle me this then... if Internet sales didn't affect the manufacturer... why would high end marques like JL, Zapco, etc so rigidly enforce their attempts to curtail ebay sales of their products? Why would Soundstream be so concerned that their new models not end up on the ebay chopping block?
> 
> I think you need to talk to the likes of Manville Smith from JL, I'm sure he could explain the error of your thought process.


I dont really know why they think about supporting the brick and mortars, you got me there, but with every company that you listed there, their **** is all over the net and ebay, so to me they dont care that much about it not being there. Most likely so they can make more money because the brick and motar buys in small quantity so the manufacturer charges them more making a higher percentage of profit. Or maybe they say that to the brick and mortars so they can have a piece of mind that they really care about them so they dont drop their line

How the hell do you think these other people get the products, do they just fall out the sky? Nope the manufacturer sells them

So Soundstream is just somehow come along and stop people from selling their products huh, how they gonna do that, this is america, if I buy 200 pieces of product, no one has the right to come tell me I cant sell them where ever I feel like it, I didnt sign a contract when I bought them


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## couchflambeau (Apr 18, 2006)

I don't think you really understand how that stuff comes to ebay then... or why they typically have SN#'s removed.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

couchflambeau said:


> I don't think you really understand how that stuff comes to ebay then... or why they typically have SN#'s removed.


So they cant trace it back to the people who sold it, I havent seen that much stuff on Ebay without serial numbers anyways, thats the people that have contracts with the company that says they cant sell on the net. What about the couple of hundreds of thousands of products on there with the serial numbers intact? I have always bought my gear from Ebay, hundreds of item for car audio, I never received an item without the serial number, every major brand you can think of.

I am done here, if no one can give me solid proof of the claims at hand I wont change my thinking, so it pointless


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

couchflambeau said:


> Riddle me this then... if Internet sales didn't affect the manufacturer... why would high end marques like JL, Zapco, etc so rigidly enforce their attempts to curtail ebay sales of their products? Why would Soundstream be so concerned that their new models not end up on the ebay chopping block?
> 
> I think you need to talk to the likes of Manville Smith from JL, I'm sure he could explain the error of your thought process.


Profit percentage Period. They're still trying to make 200% profit on a single amplifier, and only selling a single amplifier. Instead of making 50% on a single amplifier and selling four of them.

And don't forget the part about consumers being kinda dumb and buying something just because of a name, or the exclusivity associated with it. Are Nike Shox any better than Reeboks? I doubt it, but the hype sells more product. And there's nothing wrong with Nike Shox but if you can find $120.00 worth of material in them I'll kiss your azz. I bought a pair from ebay a few years ago and my friends and I stared at them for hours trying to find the difference. The only thing we could find was the color combination was not offered by Nike, at least not in this country.

Have you ever wondered why, in a capitalistic society, protected territories are even legal? Why is it illegal to buy drugs from another country that sells them cheaper when they are the exact some drugs made by the same manufacturer? Profit.


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## billw (Jun 30, 2008)

gentlejax2 said:


> so your telling me the other guy who sells 30 of them isnt making anything ..he is doing it for shots and giggles? if he can do it then so will someone else....there is always multiple people selling same thing on ebay or anyone else..


Bt it doesn't matter if 1 guy sells 30 or 10 guys sell 3, there's still only 30 being sold. When you take products out of stores and sell them only online you will probably fail. Online sales alone simply can't generate the quantities needed for companies WITH QUALITY PRODUCTS to survive. 

How many big companies can you name that rely on the internet for 100% of sales? I'm not talking AE. They're a tiny company. I'm not talking Zed either. I'm positive that car audio is nothing more than a side business and most of their income comes from other areas. 

If all brick and mortar stores closed tomorroe, the quality manufacturers would be soon to follow. And then, there will be few or no good products left to buy.


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

A few more comments and I'm done:

I keep hearing that internet sales are not enough to support a business yet they are enough to wipe out an entire brick and mortar industry. That's doesn't make mathematical sense. The people that used to buy at the brick and mortar are now buying on the internet. They didn't just disappear.

I think we are overlooking the biggest killer of sales: The factory system. Back when I got into this hobby it wasn't hard to upgrade my Delco radio and the 3.5" and 4X10" speakers in my 1978 Cutlass. My boom box sounded better sitting on the passenger seat. Now days the factory system sounds pretty damn good to 90% of the people who buy the vehicles. The amount of money you would need to spend to notice an improvement has increased dramatically. 

Then factor in crappy-mass-produced-american-idol-mixed with lil wayne music that only has highs and lows but nothing in between, the ****ty mixing and production skills of the music industry, the ipod, and the complete lack of musical education lately.... I can't think of too many CD's lately that DESERVE to played on a good system. In fact, many of them might sound worse if you did.


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

gentlejax2 said:


> I was in retail...for the last 12yrs...I am not now....
> 
> but I worked for a small family company from the ground up and we were consistantly able to keep up with any retail store in our market which was multi state wide....we were out in public 6 months out of the year ...the rest of the time we were preparing and shopping and busting but to get our product together....
> 
> ...


I have been a customer/competitor/installer/salesman/purchaser/shop owner/distributor owner/and worked as a manufacturers rep...IN car audio.Ebay devalues equipment. In the early 90's we were paying $400+ for 50x4 amplifiers and now a shop may charge $120 less that it was back then but now are not competitive because HIGH VOLUME movers leak out their sides to pad sales. Why? to keep sales volumes up. Local shops invested to be IN your community what about the sideways ebay guy? Local shops actually have overhead and more than likely pay a working wage than just teenage after school packers. Also if you worked retail in anytype of capacity I think you would have have a different set of numbers to work with rather than saying 100% profit...:laugh: Electronics are not food and they are not a necessity in life and should not be priced as such. You may complain about its REAL price but I can pretty much bet if you knew the real costs of other things you would see that the retail prices of car audio are a "better value" than what you might think...


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Look....I am not going to sit here and go round and round and round about wether it should be or not....IT IS,....that is life....wether its cars or dildos...........

Point is retail stores have to deal with it and re-think their strategy or fail....

sitting here telling its wrong isnt changing.....

if the price was more competitive then I WOuld buy local....as long as Zapco is as they are about online sales yet still charges what they want tells me they need to maybe change something....maybe? 

I am not focused on car audio in my thoughts I am speaking in general terms from my own personal experience not just my opinion...it is just that...its not the gospel....

If you want to support the brick and mortar stores so much then I guess I wont be selling anything to you on this forum heh? 

really I must do what I must do to be able to enjoy what I want...thats the bottom line


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Look....I am not going to sit here and go round and round and round about wether it should be or not....IT IS,....that is life....wether its cars or dildos...........

Point is retail stores have to deal with it and re-think their strategy or fail....

sitting here telling its wrong isnt changing.....

if the price was more competitive then I WOuld buy local....as long as Zapco is as they are about online sales yet still charges what they want tells me they need to maybe change something....maybe? 

I am not focused on car audio in my thoughts I am speaking in general terms from my own personal experience not just my opinion...it is just that...its not the gospel....

If you want to support the brick and mortar stores so much then I guess I wont be selling anything to you on this forum heh? 

really I must do what I must do to be able to enjoy what I want...thats the bottom line


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

W8 a minute said:


> Profit percentage Period. They're still trying to make 200% profit on a single amplifier, and only selling a single amplifier. Instead of making 50% on a single amplifier and selling four of them.
> 
> And don't forget the part about consumers being kinda dumb and buying something just because of a name, or the exclusivity associated with it. Are Nike Shox any better than Reeboks? I doubt it, but the hype sells more product. And there's nothing wrong with Nike Shox but if you can find $120.00 worth of material in them I'll kiss your azz. I bought a pair from ebay a few years ago and my friends and I stared at them for hours trying to find the difference. The only thing we could find was the color combination was not offered by Nike, at least not in this country.
> 
> Have you ever wondered why, in a capitalistic society, protected territories are even legal? Why is it illegal to buy drugs from another country that sells them cheaper when they are the exact some drugs made by the same manufacturer? Profit.


most lines I see in stores have from between a 35%-60% markup what you people do not understand is MANY of those prices on ebay are under,right at or barely over what a shop pays for an item. 
Would you spend $200 to get $220 back? 
How many visitors do shops get?
How many E-tailers are local to you?
Does E-tailing have a boundry advantage/disadvantage compared to a B&M shop? What about overhead?
Would you drive 2 hours one way to visit a shop? How about across the country?
Did it ever make sense that maybe some of those ebay stores profit a different way than what you think? Maybe they work hand in hand with a large volume mover and they are used to keep the main sources initial costs low? Who is going to get a better deal a shop/shops laying out $2,000,000 for a line or a shop that lays out $10k? What do you think happens to the prices of the $2,000,000 buy in shop IF their next order is 50% of what last years was? Think maybe it goes up a bit? a 5% increase on a 2,000,000 dollar order is 100k....that could be a good salary for 2 or 3 people especially IF they can bring in a little profit for themselves moving some product sideways.
Thing is what happens when there is no B&M shops and no large companies marketing car audio? Whose coat tails are the little guys going to use if they can't get a product out to you for you to actually see and worse yet have nothing to compare it to that you can see locally? This isnt mp3 vs CD's sooner or later when the race is close enough to 0 where the bottom falls out people could be getting sub quality swap meet equipment at a premium price at that time and they wouldn't know any better because they have nothing to compare it to.........UNLESS the know someone with 10 year old good equipment LOL


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

billw said:


> I know I'm a few days late, but try this example for anyone who doesn't see how ebay devalues products and ruins companies.
> 
> Let's say SS has 10 dealers selling 10 amps per week. That's 100 amps per week. Now, a dealer starts seeling the same amps on ebay for 35% less. Because of the lower price, he sells 30 amps per week, by himself.
> 
> ...


Thanx Bill. Some people understand and some people don't. I admit to being an offender for misc things on ebay as well so I am no better. But you hit the nail right on the head. Plus, who would not want the warranty. We just started logging how many people call for warranty and are rejected due to ebay purchases. Ought to be interesting...


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

BeatsDownLow said:


> I dont really know why they think about supporting the brick and mortars, you got me there, but with every company that you listed there, their **** is all over the net and ebay, so to me they dont care that much about it not being there. Most likely so they can make more money because the brick and motar buys in small quantity so the manufacturer charges them more making a higher percentage of profit. Or maybe they say that to the brick and mortars so they can have a piece of mind that they really care about them so they dont drop their line
> 
> How the hell do you think these other people get the products, do they just fall out the sky? Nope the manufacturer sells them
> 
> So Soundstream is just somehow come along and stop people from selling their products huh, how they gonna do that, this is america, if I buy 200 pieces of product, no one has the right to come tell me I cant sell them where ever I feel like it, I didnt sign a contract when I bought them


Just one point to make... Manufacturers do NOT sell the sleezy online stores! They buy it from a distributor like everybody else and try to make a buck, literally, buy whoring it out on the net. Serial tracking helps but we cannot stop it 100%, only try. Back in the day, only **** lines were at distributors, nothing respectable. The net changed that forever and has already killed many companies. That will not change either. More companies will die and more new **** companies will emerge. It's been that since the beginning of the www. 

I amnot here to argue about this since there will always be business-minded people who get it, and cheap asses who don't. I happen to be both of those guys...


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Grizz Archer said:


> Just one point to make... Manufacturers do NOT sell the sleezy online stores! They buy it from a distributor like everybody else and try to make a buck, literally, buy whoring it out on the net. Serial tracking helps but we cannot stop it 100%, only try. Back in the day, only **** lines were at distributors, nothing respectable. The net changed that forever and has already killed many companies. That will not change either. More companies will die and more new **** companies will emerge. It's been that since the beginning of the www.
> 
> I amnot here to argue about this since there will always be business-minded people who get it, and cheap asses who don't. I happen to be both of those guys...


Thast funny I guess I am cheap but thats better than retarded for paying double for the same product.

I dont care about a warranty, if you cant design and qc a product not to fail I dont want your cheap crap anymore, so if something fails then I would move on, but it doesnt in my case cause I only but higher end stuff that is well designed, tried and true.


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

If everything you people say about cheaper products was true then Pyramid would have been the only company left standing 20 years ago.

Companies that survived have managed to create a product that delivers on quality as well as price. People will always be willing to pay a little more for a better product. Companies that will flourish in the future will be the ones that provide the best bang for the buck and not necessarily the cheapest product. 

The only thing the internet did was eliminate the middle man or the "local rep" who needlessly marked up the product before the B&M store did. People got wise to that and now try to buy for "cost" instead of "msrp." This includes everything from toothpaste to automobiles. 

Warranties on car audio equipment are worthless. If my "authorized" amplifier goes up in smoke I have to make an appointment to have it removed, then have it shipped away, then wait for God only knows how long for it to return, then I have to have it reinstalled. Now the amp is not only used, but repaired, which makes it worth even less. Not to mention the fact that I've seen dealers try to stick the labor and the shipping to the customer.

Or, I could buy it on ebay for half and take the gamble that it will not go up in smoke. If it does go up in smoke I can still buy another one and have it shipped to my house before I can even make the appointment to have my authorized amp removed let alone shipped and repaired. My cash outlay is still the same and I have my music back sooner. I can even purchase a warranty from most ebay stores if I felt the need.

Warranties should be an over the counter exchange, not a repair. At least for the first 6 months or a year. So add "poor customer service" to your list of reasons why B&M stores failed.

I do find it ironic that so many companies are telling me to stop buying on the internet and support my local B&M store when truth be told, they are the ones that ditched the B&M stores to swing on the nuts of Best Buy and Circuit City who are responsible for killing off more B&M specialty retailers than the internet ever will.


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

W8 a minute said:


> If everything you people say about cheaper products was true then Pyramid would have been the only company left standing 20 years ago.
> 
> Companies that survived have managed to create a product that delivers on quality as well as price. People will always be willing to pay a little more for a better product. Companies that will flourish in the future will be the ones that provide the best bang for the buck and not necessarily the cheapest product.
> 
> ...


Large companies still have sales reps sorry to say LOL and what you are complaining about over the counter warranty is a manufacturers deal not the B&M shop. BB and CC upheld retail pricing...Lets say you eliminated the reps a large company would have to hire more people to take orders and those people wouldn't be going to the shops like most good reps do..more labor for said manufacturer more cost to end consumer either way. Same thing can be said for distributors...they save costs in shipping in some cases price/warranty time and again the labor in sales and service.


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

You're right. We are all bad consumers. We should all pay more. My bad.

Anyone wanna take up a donation to bailout the next car audio company on the brink of bankruptcy?

Large companies might have held up pricing (not really, but let's assume they did) but the manufacturers did NOT honor thier protected territories. Circuit City opened up right next to several of our local B&M stores. In fact I could look out my install bay and throw a wrench at thier installers. Large companies have local "reps" they can work with, or call if they have issues, but they are NOT purchasing product through them like the local B&M. They are buying direct from the manufacturer. See, CC and BB eliminated the middle man just like the internet does. This allowed more profit per unit so they could offer free installations or free accessories, and other free items to offset the MSRP. So while they "might" have held pricing they gave away everything else to sweeten the deal and still made a profit because they skipped the middle man.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Well if we all had to pay b&m prices for the gear we wanted then quite a few of us would be running nothing at all or old stuff due to cost. Say everyone stopped buying off ebay. That still doesn't garantee anything in todays economy. You can't compare prices on amps from the 90's to ones now as a lot of variables in the cost have changed. If I could even buy a new amp local I would consider it but most of my choices are entry level or sky high. Sorry no can do. Why pay as much for a mtx local as a arc online? I buy lots more used stuff than new so its really irrelavent except for fact that I am not out at local ripoff bm place getting screwed. If manufacts don't want net sells then stop the net sellers. Don't blame me for buying it. Grizz your still a nice guy and I wish you an ss the best. Really.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

Am I missing something? Appears to me that any company that wanted to get rid of ebay/internet sells almost entirely or make a huge dent could just not sell/release product to a distributor.

Company sells direct to dealer/B&M only. Product leaves company shipped direct to authorized dealer shops only, no large distro company but only the B&M shops. 

Would this stop ebay/online sells completely no but IMO it would sure make a dent.

Also if we are not worried about only the all mighty dollar then we limit the amount of certain products available if you want to keep them off the .com. This also keeps the cost of that product higher or less of a discount because it is not flooding the market place and readily available at the click of a mouse.

Things can be done to limit or greatly reduce .com sells of products. However by doing this it is going to affect the profit margin. 

Also if we look at companies like ARC, Zapco, ID, ZED, Sinfoni, Audison, Hertz, TRU, Dynaudio, Morel, Rainbow ect. how much of their products are on ebay compared to everyone else. Then ask why is this? Is it they are only fill a nitch in the market place? They are smaller companies? Because they cost more? 

There are companies like Crutchfield that can sell the products authorized. Crutchfield is 99% of the time full retail which helps protect the B&M and territories still. JL went that route but you can get JL cheaper at the B&M. I would speculate though Crutchfield has helped their sales and to get products to people with no B&M close to them.

Woofersect.com has many of these listed brands on their site but many times if you call they do not have the product. Can they get it, I have no clue. 

There are a lot of companies talking great games and this and that. There are very few that appear to be actually backing this up or at least honestly trying to. Many of the companies above seem to be trying to do it and appear to be somewhat successful at pulling it off.

I agree with the above that the large retail stores took a huge toll. However, with CC gone one of me very good friends shop has now gone into Home Audio and is doing good with it now that CC is gone. 

I think both the companies and the B&M still have a lot of learning to do to overcome the .com and big retails. Companies need to learn to protect territories better and get back to the good old relationship of yester years with the B&M. They also need to take a closer look at a B&M before they decide to let them sell their products. Does the shop actually a have clue what they are doing or they are hack operation trying to make a buck. Selling product to hack shops also hurt the Companies and other reputable B&M shops.

This is my observation of it all watching, personally knowing shop owners and after being interested in car audio for 20 years.

Well there is my IMO statement.


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

W8 a minute said:


> You're right. We are all bad consumers. We should all pay more. My bad.
> 
> Anyone wanna take up a donation to bailout the next car audio company on the brink of bankruptcy?
> 
> Large companies might have held up pricing (not really, but let's assume they did) but the manufacturers did NOT honor thier protected territories. Circuit City opened up right next to several of our local B&M stores. In fact I could look out my install bay and throw a wrench at thier installers. Large companies have local "reps" they can work with, or call if they have issues, but they are NOT purchasing product through them like the local B&M. They are buying direct from the manufacturer. See, CC and BB eliminated the middle man just like the internet does. This allowed more profit per unit so they could offer free installations or free accessories, and other free items to offset the MSRP. So while they "might" have held pricing they gave away everything else to sweeten the deal and still made a profit because they skipped the middle man.


CC is gone and BB is not selling things at dealer cost. I assure you someone gets paid from selling to BB.....Nothing is free at BB. Free installs just ment that tou paid 20+ for a dash kit and 18 for a wire harness and 10 for an ant adapter LOL and more than likely one or 2 advanced labor charges and a misc parts fee.:laugh:.....Love how you tried to flip it into a "us customers vs them car audio guys...Its pretty funny just remember 1 thing bussinesses only operate when they make $ as thats why they are in bizz. Take the $$ out that takes away from everything right down to the R&D. Lets put it another way Nissan and TATA are comming out with SUB $3000 dollar cars, does this mean they are super nice and better than other new cars?


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## billw (Jun 30, 2008)

Guys, its a pretty simple fact that as internet sales go up, overall slaes go down. You are thinking about yourself and your own situation only. Manufacturers have to think about the big picture. Who buys more in car entertainment: soccer moms or DIYers?

A lot of people shop in stores, get advice and recommendations, and then buy online. But, the sale was only made because of the trip to the store. If the store goes away, how do you shop online and tell the difference between products? And I don't really mean you, the educated enthusiast. How does Joe Consumer tell the differnce between SS, Audiobahn, Pyramid, etc? None of them are household names. The specs all look the same. 

A lot of big companies got big because the B&M stores. Now, as the internet sales grow, they see sales falling off. Internet dealers take orders but they don't believe in and recommend products. They make the same $10 no matter what amp you buy. They don't care if it breaks. They just want to move boxes and make room for the next shipment of transshipped or gray market gear.

A lot of people complainbout the reduced quality in equipment today. Why do you think that is? Because the manufactures are trying to make things cheaper and cheaper.

It doesn't matter if its car audio or toys either. Why do you think there were toys with lead paint on shelves last year? Because they were cheaper than safer paints!!

You can't have low prices, high build quality, and cater your business to the 5% of the industry that posts on boards like this. Manufacturers have to protect their dealers, since that is where the vast majority of their market share and sales come from.


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

Genxx said:


> Am I missing something? Appears to me that any company that wanted to get rid of ebay/internet sells almost entirely or make a huge dent could just not sell/release product to a distributor.
> 
> Company sells direct to dealer/B&M only. Product leaves company shipped direct to authorized dealer shops only, no large distro company but only the B&M shops.
> 
> ...


How big are Zapco and Morel compared to the companies in distribution? Almost all the companies once started as direct only but once they get so big for so long in a SHRINKING market there comes a time to either go into distribution or shrink themselves. There used to be a time when a car audio company went under another stepped in even if they were only in business for 2-3 years but the way it is anymore you do not see as many new sell direct to B&M shops only companies anymore. Distributors are not bad or evil they also help the little shops as mentioned before. You would also be suprised at how different the processes are from the east coast to the mid west to the west coast....


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

Just for the record customers are not evil, just letting you know to some degree where when and at least partly why things are on ebay, me personally I bought 2 15" kicker L5's off ebay once and I will never do it again. After shipping out an order and sending it back 2 times to get the right voice coils I ended up spending as much as I would have just buying it local. I do not have issues with a business (B&M) making money as in my history of being in car audio those people have my respect.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

Audiofile-I agree with 99% of what you are saying and understand how things are now, even Clarion recently went to distro. What I am getting at is the companies complaining about there stuff being on ebay or internet. 

If they don't want it there then they have to do like other's have done. If they want to be a large mass market company then they are going to have to live with the internet sells and ebay. If not its time to look at the company mission and either follow other models or come up with a new one. Which may include downsizing, filling a nitch in the market, higher prices better products ect.

I don't know of any large mass companies that can keep themselves only at the B&M, authorized sales, protect territories and stay in business.IMO

IMO you just can't have your cake and eat it too.


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

Genxx said:


> Audiofile-I agree with 99% of what you are saying and understand how things are now, even Clarion recently went to distro. What I am getting at is the companies complaining about there stuff being on ebay or internet.
> 
> If they don't want it there then they have to do like other's have done. If they want to be a large mass market company then they are going to have to live with the internet sells and ebay. If not its time to look at the company mission and either follow other models or come up with a new one. Which may include downsizing, filling a nitch in the market, higher prices better products ect.
> 
> ...


Comes a point where they are darned if they do and darned if they don't. What if where they were at was the best alternitive and it still happened?


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Anyone know what happened to Lightning Audio? I have seen both Strike dealer amps and Bolt Walmart amps...there is a difference for sure, but then RF bought them.

I guess if your B&M are selling you so much product, you need to pay them to do it. You still have to service two customers; the ones that buy at the store and the ones that don't. Seems to me one needs install/sales help and the other does not or only needed sales help and got it at the store but buys online.

However I would still say you are missing a lot of customers if you don't sell online, and those people expect at least a break for no install/sales services they don't want.

I also agree manufacturers need to get online and sell the product! They need to get on forums and have good websites with more info about the product. I mean really, one person can run a website for the whole world that is a pretty low cost sales tool. I don't look that often but how many manufacturers are posting video/photos of show cars with their equipment, other events, spreading the word on the forums/etc? I have seen some smaller companies do it, but most don't. How about featuring B&M installs from your stores, even a few photos could work, it is the same thing people would want to see if they went to that store. Or require they have a site/page with their own stuff. Just ideas, but that kind of stuff would interest me more if I were shopping and not so diy. Frankly I need those savings to support all my other non audio diy things, lol.


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

sqshoestring said:


> Anyone know what happened to Lightning Audio? I have seen both Strike dealer amps and Bolt Walmart amps...there is a difference for sure, but then RF bought them.
> 
> I guess if your B&M are selling you so much product, you need to pay them to do it. You still have to service two customers; the ones that buy at the store and the ones that don't. Seems to me one needs install/sales help and the other does not or only needed sales help and got it at the store but buys online.
> 
> ...


once there is NOTHING to compare to at a local shop where you can see it, hear it, touch it things will go downhill even faster. I have bought things that could only be bought over the net and to say I was happy with the end results would be a lie.:worried:


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Audiolife said:


> once there is NOTHING to compare to at a local shop where you can see it, hear it, touch it things will go downhill even faster. I have bought things that could only be bought over the net and to say I was happy with the end results would be a lie.:worried:


but then again listening it in a listening room is not anywhere near hearing it in car, although you can get an idea of what it sounds like, especially with components that are housed in a sealed enclosure on a listening board


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> but then again listening it in a listening room is not anywhere near hearing it in car, although you can get an idea of what it sounds like, especially with components that are housed in a sealed enclosure on a listening board


not only listening rooms but in actual peoples cars and to actually see the speakers themselves. Reason some people are so comfortable buyig off the net is for the most part they can go to a local shop see it hear it press buttons then go home and buy it online....take away the comfort zone and I bet it shrinks buy a good margin. Once people get ripped doing it that way where they can't see it in person it ruins a lot of the trust issue.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I havnt been to a B&M audio store in years to actually look at something or buy....I went in one recently to get a cage for my Alpine deck.....

AND THEY SOLD ME THE WRONG ONE........even though I told them what deck it was....

yeah...so much for knowing what they were selling.....I do believe it was their installer that got me the wrong cage as well....

I was in a hurry and didnt look at it...but still.....

I havnt had the need to touch or hear most of the stuff... can make **** sound good with correct install...

I have no use for BM store cause they seem to stick it to me every time or try to


so see I did give my $12 to local BM and their installer obviously knows nothing unless it has to do with subs and bass...all I needed was a cage and I do believe its still sitting in my office somewhere....


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

gentlejax2 said:


> I havnt been to a B&M audio store in years to actually look at something or buy....I went in one recently to get a cage for my Alpine deck.....
> 
> AND THEY SOLD ME THE WRONG ONE........even though I told them what deck it was....
> 
> ...


I am not saying everyone will run away from it but IMO most will..if not most a good percentage will as well as most youngsters who potentially could be getting into the hobby at that point. And with better marketing and local shops the field has shrunk about every year over the last 20 anyway for a few reasons.


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

Audiolife said:


> CC is gone and BB is not selling things at dealer cost. I assure you someone gets paid from selling to BB.....Nothing is free at BB. Free installs just ment that tou paid 20+ for a dash kit and 18 for a wire harness and 10 for an ant adapter LOL and more than likely one or 2 advanced labor charges and a misc parts fee.:laugh:


I'm not sure what your point is? In fact, you have little to no points at all. The manufacturers jumped in bed with the chain stores several years ago. That started the ball rolling and it's been downhill for them since then. It's the natural evolution. BB and CC killed the B&M's on price and price alone. I was there, I remember. People were willing to pay less for less service and they would be willing to pay even less for no service. In fact NO service might even be better than BAD or POOR service. If you can't help me correctly then don't help me at all. And that's what the internet provides. No hype, no checkout lane, no traffic, and no pimply faced kid salesman with bad advice and misinformation.

Or my friend had another point (expanding on my above comments):
BB and CC proved that the local B&M's weren't providing enough service to warrant the higher prices. Now the internet is proving that BB and CC didn't provide a deep enough discount to warrant their poor service.



Audiolife said:


> just remember 1 thing bussinesses only operate when they make $ as thats why they are in bizz. Take the $$ out that takes away from everything right down to the R&D. Lets put it another way Nissan and TATA are comming out with SUB $3000 dollar cars, does this mean they are super nice and better than other new cars?


How much R&D do you need on a class A/B amp (or even a class D amp)? It's not exactly new technology. In fact, most R&D seems to go into making things cheaper, not better. Or maybe because a patent expired. Crack open an old D series amplifier or an old Linear Power amp. They look like a high school science project on the inside. But there are not many parts and they seem to work just fine. Simple and functional. I never asked Soundstream to completely redesign their amplifiers. I was happy with the old ones. Do those 3000 dollar cars get you to work everyday? Then new amplifiers should amplify just as well. Those new cars are cheaper because they come with almost no options. Can I get a Reference series amp without all the catch phrases like Hawkins, RUBI, etc? 

How about something like a nice thick circuit board with heavy traces, quality components, a minimal parts count, no middle man markup, and rock solid proven design? This might be the idea Jacob Fuller tapped in on with Sundown. I can't speak for him but IIRC he simply chose a proven design from a Korean build house and specified that higher quality components be used and then sold them on the internet through these forums. Then to sweeten the deal he backed them with an awesome warranty. No R&D needed because there has been plenty of R&D on a/b amps for over two decades.


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

W8 a minute said:


> I'm not sure what your point is? In fact, you have little to no points at all. The manufacturers jumped in bed with the chain stores several years ago. That started the ball rolling and it's been downhill for them since then. It's the natural evolution. BB and CC killed the B&M's on price and price alone. I was there, I remember. People were willing to pay less for less service and they would be willing to pay even less for no service. In fact NO service might even be better than BAD or POOR service. If you can't help me correctly then don't help me at all. And that's what the internet provides. No hype, no checkout lane, no traffic, and no pimply faced kid salesman with bad advice and misinformation.
> 
> Or my friend had another point (expanding on my above comments):
> BB and CC proved that the local B&M's weren't providing enough service to warrant the higher prices. Now the internet is proving that BB and CC didn't provide a deep enough discount to warrant their poor service.
> ...


LOL so more shops selling within retail to MAP (minimum advertised price) pricing is a bad deal? Explain this to me because the only type of sense that would draw anything away from that is too common of an item?? I worked at a large chain and at a large independant dealer that both sold RF. The independant shop sold 5 times as much RF than the big retailer, actually it was more than likely more than that.
I find it VERY hard to believe every stereo shop provides little to no service.
Are you saying large companies don't have any R and D? INTRESTING.

Wonder what happens when build houses start releasing their own brands?


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

Audiolife said:


> LOL so more shops selling within retail to MAP (minimum advertised price) pricing is a bad deal? Explain this to me because the only type of sense that would draw anything away from that is too common of an item?? I worked at a large chain and at a large independant dealer that both sold RF. The independant shop sold 5 times as much RF than the big retailer, actually it was more than likely more than that.
> I find it VERY hard to believe every stereo shop provides little to no service.
> Are you saying large companies don't have any R and D? INTRESTING.
> 
> Wonder what happens when build houses start releasing their own brands?


I'm not sure how to respond because I don't know how you concluded this from anything in my post? 
1) I never said they provided NO service. Just not enough to justify the higher prices.
2) I never said large companies DON'T have R&D. I just said it wasn't needed. There are plenty of good, working designs out there already.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

W8 a minute said:


> How about something like a nice thick circuit board with heavy traces, quality components, a minimal parts count, no middle man markup, and rock solid proven design? This might be the idea Jacob Fuller tapped in on with Sundown. I can't speak for him but IIRC he simply chose a proven design from a Korean build house and specified that higher quality components be used and then sold them on the internet through these forums. Then to sweeten the deal he backed them with an awesome warranty. No R&D needed because there has been plenty of R&D on a/b amps for over two decades.


You read my mind..... I would love some retro amps, updated of course. If a Soundstream I'd like a D200R. Nice dual mono with high grade components, SMD long as you keep it large so it can be repaired. No special parts or driver boards, use common high quality parts like IR/etc and good caps. No crossovers at all they are in my dash, I'd like a gain and a balance or mini-gain on one channel to balance if needed (I just don't like gain per channel as I rarely have to balance them). In fact it does not even have to be bridgeable so it can be true mono, someone can run a DVC if they have to use it on subs. Put a 4/2 ohm switch on it so I can get full power at 4 ohm where I will use it the most. 

Make it look like the old D200 with big anodize fins and no guards/feet/screws that can fall off the amp or get lost. Some cool features would be a hidden thermo fan for tight installs, some kind of foot/pad/grommet so you don't screw on the aluminum would be nice but nothing that breaks/falls off/disables mounting. If they could connect or be mounted end to end that would be nice but not required. Minimize case parts/hardware/connectors/etc., clamp transistors with long bars and big screws, mount the board and make it last like the old amps, and keep the transistors away from the board. Try to make it clip gracefully and try to make it US made. Oversize the transistor sets and make it good for 100+rms 20-20K @ 12v. I'm thinking if you could do it for what, $200-300? That would be an amp I would want bad. A 4ch, a 2x50, and a good class D in a matching case would round out a line of great amps, and maybe a larger 2ch for midbass. Lean and mean tanks like the old ones, I am surprised nobody is selling an amp like that...and is sold on those points. I mean under a name that made those kind of amps back in the day.

I would try to sell them online outright or through select places, then give the dealers restricted amounts at a discount so they can't dump many at lower prices, if they choose to dump them, but they can make their money. That way everyone could get one and the price would be controlled.


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## Audiolife (Dec 19, 2008)

W8 a minute said:


> I'm not sure how to respond because I don't know how you concluded this from anything in my post?
> 1) I never said they provided NO service. Just not enough to justify the higher prices.
> 2) I never said large companies DON'T have R&D. I just said it wasn't needed. There are plenty of good, working designs out there already.


1.Simple cause and effect...in person service > over the net/ups/phone service as a company grows it becomes more so as there are simply more customers and potential issues just by shear volume

2. So companies should get left in the dust as far as technology and prices go? Also what happens when companies start to grow? They get more and more dealers so they stop selling direct and prices all go up...plus if they don't sell enough to keep Mr buildhouse happy what is to stop Mr buildhouse from releasing their own? It has happened before history repeats itself no matter what spin anyone wants to put on it We can keep going round and round about it but comes a point where it becomes more and more obvious where you are talking about staying the same vs adjusting adapting and growing.


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## dave_damage (Jul 9, 2008)

SOUNDSTREAM REF4.760 760W 4-Channel REFERENCE AMPLIFIER - eBay (item 200332797493 end time May-17-09 11:30:39 PDT)


Looks like they made it to ebay rather fast.


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

Audiolife said:


> We can keep going round and round about it but comes a point where it becomes more and more obvious where you are talking about staying the same vs adjusting adapting and growing.


Then why are people willing to pay more for the old designs? 

Don't worry, eBay will be peppered with them soon enough.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

dave_damage said:


> SOUNDSTREAM REF4.760 760W 4-Channel REFERENCE AMPLIFIER - eBay (item 200332797493 end time May-17-09 11:30:39 PDT)
> 
> 
> Looks like they made it to ebay rather fast.


I knew they would they cant stop them, to think they can thats funny


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Cheaper than this old Alpine 300306909448	

I'd like to see a gut pic. Sink looks nice I'll say that.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

so...who is going to test one first??


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

gentlejax2 said:


> so...who is going to test one first??


I might in a few months and use it as a wall hanger afterwards.


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

gentlejax2 said:


> so...who is going to test one first??


If it was the bigger version I would. Not a bad price for this version if it's a quality piece of equipment like Grizz claims.


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

BeatsDownLow said:


> Thast funny I guess I am cheap but thats better than retarded for paying double for the same product.
> 
> I dont care about a warranty, if you cant design and qc a product not to fail I dont want your cheap crap anymore, so if something fails then I would move on, but it doesnt in my case cause I only but higher end stuff that is well designed, tried and true.


Wow, you seem pretty pissed of about something. First, I never asked you to run my cheap crap. Second, if it were crap we would not be in business. Third, if it were cheap, we woud not have been talking about internet sales. I hope you find whatever it is that you are looking for.


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

dave_damage said:


> SOUNDSTREAM REF4.760 760W 4-Channel REFERENCE AMPLIFIER - eBay (item 200332797493 end time May-17-09 11:30:39 PDT)
> 
> 
> Looks like they made it to ebay rather fast.


Finally I get to laugh about this whole topic. I got $1000 that says they don't have one. I know they don't because they weren't shipping when they did this ad. Anyway, this has been a monumental wast of everybody's time. Some people get it, some don't. I love to buy on eBay. For some things it does not matter. What kills me is that some people want studio grade amplifiers and they want to buy them next to nothing. I understand the desire, but they don't know **** about business. Oh well, on to another topic...


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

Anyone have pics of Jeff Moolevliet install? Grizz maybe a gut pic of the new Ref's?


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## whoinow (Jul 13, 2009)

So this thread got pretty hijacked. Has anyone actually bought one of these by now and opened it up? Hell, I would take a review at this point.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

whoinow said:


> So this thread got pretty hijacked. Has anyone actually bought one of these by now and opened it up? Hell, I would take a review at this point.


Search, there is a thread showing the guts of the 4-ch ref amp


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

FYI - Next month, PAS Magazine will have a review on the REF4.760...


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

Grizz Archer said:


> FYI - Next month, PAS Magazine will have a review on the REF4.760...


Have any pics of Jeff Moolevliet install?


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

I am working on getting some pics now. His dash pods are hard to photo, but should have good shots soon!!!


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

I stopped reading about page 7...

I think there's one thing people fail to realize. The consumer of today would rather pay $200 for a purse and $25 for a computer. Today's consumer does not value the quality of a product...just the fact that they can say they own it.

With that said...the typical BB audio kid is only buying for looks and the most attention which happens to be "bump". So mono amps and subs are what sell today. They match these with "good enough" speakers from the factory. If anybody has failed anybody, it's the consumer and their ability to demand high quality and spend money appropriately.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

How are these amps turning out? People like them?


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

Dude, you hit the nail on the head! My wife will pay $200 for a purse or pair of jeans, but expects 20" tires for our truck to be $49.99, or anything that requires engineering to be dirt cheap. Man I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you stating that. That is why myself andf most other manufacturer guys do not waste our time here. There are guys who get it like your self, and there are a bunch of young, stupid idiots that think they know everything and want it all for dirt cheap of F'n eBay.

I'll let other tell you if they liek them or not. I am not here to propagate. I just loved your statement and wish the rest of the people on here got it. If they did, car audio forums could be fun again like they were in the 90s...


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Grizz Archer said:


> If they did, car audio forums could be fun again like they were in the 90s...


They had car audio forums in the 90s? All I remember from back then was rec.audio.car


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

Rec.audio.car was the main one but look whop was on there. Guys from JL, Stinger, Directed, MTX and many more. But they all bailed. In the mid 90s the Term Pro sorums started up as well and got huge fast... There were a few I monitored daily back in the day...


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Grizz Archer said:


> Dude, you hit the nail on the head! My wife will pay $200 for a purse or pair of jeans, but expects 20" tires for our truck to be $49.99, or anything that requires engineering to be dirt cheap. Man I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you stating that. That is why myself andf most other manufacturer guys do not waste our time here. There are guys who get it like your self, and there are a bunch of young, stupid idiots that think they know everything and want it all for dirt cheap of F'n eBay.
> 
> I'll let other tell you if they liek them or not. I am not here to propagate. I just loved your statement and wish the rest of the people on here got it. If they did, car audio forums could be fun again like they were in the 90s...



Consumerism in America blows. We blame anybody and everybody for our economy but it's our spending habits that created a "bubble" in retail and everything else. Consequently, the only thing that can really stand on two feet are trends. The see-saw action of our spending habits forces industries to explode and then fall apart as they lose fanfare.

Unfortunately, car audio is basically dead for anybody thinking large scale markets. You have to go to Europe or Asia for that. If anybody wants to compete in America you cater to small markets or BB customers. Try to cater to both and it's gonna eat you alive.

I really hope that Sound Stream makes a come back. My brother is going to open a car stereo side shop as part of his business. We're looking at products and if the Reference series is a good one it's easier to sell products that ring a bell.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I can't fully agree with that, I think many people will purchase from the net or ebay just because it is fast and easy. Seems to me if you have a higher quality amp your main customers will be ones that go to a shop for a full install, and the people like us BB readers/audiophiles/etc. I would figure to sell to dealers and internet to service all of them, and a proper price structure to make it work. Then I'd put plenty of info out on the amps. But, I am not in this market and don't know reasons why it would not work well that way. To me it is a matter of time, I will _not_ buy a product I can't get on the net and dealers here are limited anyway. Plenty of dealer only products are not available here, one I checked their locater and it told me to drive 90 miles one way, yeah right. I've been doing this a long time and have no interest in talking/dealing with a shop for equipment, or rather wasting my time with it when UPS/etc will drop it at my door...let alone driving to the other side of the state for an amp.

People expect cheap China goods because they are used to them, and now near every amp is one of them. That is another issue....just the same a lot of people will pay more for a better product if it is really better.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I'll actually owe Grizz an apology if Soundstream returns to quality. I know I poked fun at you for that, but I have been through this before with another company.

[Begin Short Story made LONG]
You have to remember, John Durbin @ DEI said told me the new Orion amplifiers were built much better than the old ones and IMHO they ARE NOT. He was angered real quick when I asked him why Orion amps from the 90s are still running, even though many were abused, whereas DEI produced Orions will be lucky to make it one year without an RMA. Naturally, rather than answer my question, he said I need to go back and live in the past with skeletons, legends, ghosts, and high school heroes.

Don't even get me started on DEI's customer service, or lack thereof.
[/Begin Short Story made LONG]


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

Well at lease your off the LP trip


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Blazemore said:


> Well at lease your off the LP trip


Yep... So which manufacturer/marketer wants be my next victim?:evilgrin:


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Haha. I still eagerly await results


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

The fact is that if we as consumers want innovative quality products, it costs money to develop them. The interwebs hasn't changed the game, but it has changed some of the rules. Those manufacturers who can adapt to this reality successfully will thrive, and those who don't will not. There's no sense in b!tching about it.


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## marchel (Dec 15, 2008)

Any gut pic of the reference yet?

I noticed that the Ref. 4 channel is much longer than the Rub 4.600, So there must be more output transistors on each channel.

Another questions, Does the new Ref. amps uses 1% resistors like the old Refs? Is the board used on the Ref. Better in quality than the Rub. Like thicker and stronger kind?


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

I hope to add some first hand experience here soon on the ref. 2.940 I just ordered two of them from a local (1hr away and I got what I feel a very good deal) I am running a three way active set from the xovers on the amp and a 12" sub bridged off two of the channels. I have spoken to Grizz and he has been very helpful in my choices. I had narrowed the ref. down from about 4 others. It will be replacing my Mcintosh's so that will be my comparison. I do not usually order from online and ignore ebay mostly. Never had good luck selling and just dont trust most sellers. I believe in getting what I pay for and if these are half as good as the old ones then I feel like I got a great deal. The xovers seem really nice on them as well. I am very anxious to try them out. I think they will be in late next week. I know people have good luck online, I just dont trust my odds and like Grizz and so many others have said it only hurts the production of higher quality items being funded by companies because people just wont pay for them. (general population) I know this forum is kinda based on bang for buck etc... and that is just absolutely awesome and has been a great resource for me for a while now but I do feel like a ton of people on here (not this thread, just forum in general) are wicked friggin cheap.... They want everything for nothing. Just my 2cents. I hope I have a great review ahead of the new ref... I was willing to try and be the test subject!


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

cant wait to see what you think......


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## Audiophyle (Aug 8, 2009)

So many haters, I for one would love to see Soundstream come back to what it used to be and will most def be picking up one of these new ref amps to play with.

Having worked for many years in retail stores & working as a distributor, I got a pretty good laugh from those who think they have it all figured out. 
From what I have read, I believe Grizz Archer has a pretty solid grasp on what needs to be done for SS.


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

Audiophyle said:


> So many haters, I for one would love to see Soundstream come back to what it used to be and will most def be picking up one of these new ref amps to play with.
> 
> Having worked for many years in retail stores & working as a distributor, I got a pretty good laugh from those who think they have it all figured out.
> From what I have read, I believe Grizz Archer has a pretty solid grasp on what needs to be done for SS.


I would love to see it happen also, but I think the average consumer is far more caught up in quantity over quality these days, and quite frankly does not have the discriminational abilities to differentiate between real quality products. They are far too removed from the manufacturing processes to even remotely understand what it takes to construct most of the items they use in everyday life, and are now also far too easily swayed by advertising that tells them what they need.
Humanity can be somewhat judged by the quality of its art, and one quick look in that department would tend to make one a quick believer in devolution.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

well.............REX....whats up??? guts ???


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum.../63148-sounstream-reference-4-920-review.html
Review has been up for a little while now. I am actually going to be adding the new ref4.400 running my helix 801 tweets, 802 midrange, and idq 8s next week. I will be using an alpine 650imprint with it. I am going to set the xover on the imprint and on the amps (I wont get into details but because of rca inputs I have to do this till I get my BLT's) I have not got my sub in yet, I have to test it to make sure the bridged channels of the 4.920 will be ok with a 3ohm load. I do not do gut pics.....Its not something I really care about, and hate to fiddle with stuff like that (sometimes bull in china shop I will say they are super super clean, powerful and versitile so far!


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

The Rubicon is not intended to be our top notch series, but in all honesty, I like them better than the Tarantual which cost more. The preamps section I designed is perfect for other anal freaks like myself that love more control and active xovers. I have regular blue ones in my wife's car, custom white ones in my show truck and a new custom annodized orange 5-channel in my new orange Jeep. That is all I use. I like the size, appearance, performance and affordability. I would even ditch the Picasso and Tarantula series in favor of just the Rubicon. But the Spider Lovers around the world won't let that happen... ;^)


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

so when we going to see the internal of the new Refs? Soon as I get done with current amps these new SS amps are next on my list to try out.....well...that and the new Zed line but....they are going to cost more....SS is on my list..


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...m-reference-4-920-long-awaited-guts-pics.html


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

when we gonna see the 5-ch ref?


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

gentlejax2 said:


> so when we going to see the internal of the new Refs? Soon as I get done with current amps these new SS amps are next on my list to try out.....well...that and the new Zed line but....they are going to cost more....SS is on my list..


I already posted pics. Can;t remember what the thread was. Try searching and if you can't find it, I'll take some more...


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Grizz Archer said:


> I already posted pics. Can;t remember what the thread was. Try searching and if you can't find it, I'll take some more...



no problem..I found them..thanks


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## takurofromjapan (Oct 19, 2009)

Hi , I just joined , and have some questions regarding to newer rubicon amp. 

It looks like I need to reply to a thread before I get to post my own ...so here I am . 


I think I have spoken to Grizzy over the phone once, and finding you , and your posts here makes me really feel like I have come to a right place. 

Thanks guys for all your sharing of knowledges.


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## vincywiz (Oct 21, 2009)

Grizz Archer is the man? I thought Tony Macrini had it all locked-up until they pulled the rug! but anyway; the key to SS succes does not rest with a single individual but ironically enough, failure is the default in the absence of a solid plan for forward and THAT can be done by an individual...

BTW, the design that karl Cummings was responsible for is NOT the new LW or any other look-alikes, Karl's design is in the VAN GOGH series. Unfortunately, politics killed the best and probably only chance soundsteram had at recovery to the top.


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## tential (Jun 26, 2010)

Sorry to resurrect an only topic but is Grizz Archer still around and how did those reviews go of the new REF series?


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## vincywiz (Oct 21, 2009)

...I am not sure what Grizz is up to these days or even whether he's still around, but since I'm sure he monitors this forum, he'll probably put in a word for himself. As far as I know* Tony Mc. Rini *is the man who set the stage at SS; but when he was torpedoed...Grizz came along and 'drank his milk shake'...LOL.

As for the new REFEREENCE series;* I *haven't seen or heard much about it; maybe they are selling better in SA? one thing is this; when there's a good amp. on the market, word get's around...so keep watching for blogs.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

There is a review on the 4.920 on here although not a great one. There is a great one in pasmag.com or one of those magazines. Just google soundstream ref. 4.760 review and it will show up. I sold my 4.920 and 4.400 a little while ago. I regret it more then when I sold all my mcintosh stuff  Absolutely awesome amps!!!! I just ordered a pair of Human Reigns HRU.4 to run my whole system off of. If I didnt get the HRU I would have bought two more ref amps. You can email Grizz or send him a PM. He is one of the nicest and honest guys you will ever run into anywhere. The guy just cares about audio! He will give you honest answers about any of there products, and is extremely approachable.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

rexroadj said:


> There is a review on the 4.920 on here although not a great one. There is a great one in pasmag.com or one of those magazines. Just google soundstream ref. 4.760 review and it will show up. I sold my 4.920 and 4.400 a little while ago. I regret it more then when I sold all my mcintosh stuff  Absolutely awesome amps!!!! I just ordered a pair of Human Reigns HRU.4 to run my whole system off of. If I didnt get the HRU I would have bought two more ref amps. You can email Grizz or send him a PM. He is one of the nicest and honest guys you will ever run into anywhere. The guy just cares about audio! He will give you honest answers about any of there products, and is extremely approachable.



human reigns...cant wait to hear about them


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## tential (Jun 26, 2010)

Wow I bet those cost quite a bit. How you planning to run all your speakers of the HRU since I thought you had more than 4 speakers? Nice to hear of companies coming back with competitive products though, I hate things being sold on name only.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

They should be a lot of fun! I will have two 8" new ppi art sq subs ported in my center console off two channels. The other two will run my jbl gti608 seperates (I am going to try out the ppi 3ways soon though for ****s and giggles).
I loved the reference amps and can only imagine what the HRU will do. I will be sure to update


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

PPI products are already out/shipping? hrmmm.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Some of them.....The 8s are probably gonna be a little while. I put an order in but dont really know when there gonna be in. I think the 3ways are available, the powerclass amps and sedona amps. The powerclass subs are out (pretty decent review recently of the 15) I like the direction they are heading with there subs, low power/high efficiency! Nothing new I know, but it worked great years ago no reason why it wont work great now. Its budget friendly too, you wont need tons of $$$$ in power to reach high volumes. I love the old school foam surrounds and paper cones, I always have and always will. My current sub is semi-new school and rare but is absolutely my favorite sub of all time. Oddly enough it has foam surround and pressed paper cone (nakamichi sp-w1200d) It just cost a decent amount retail years ago!


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## kai-wun (Oct 5, 2009)

interested .... 24db xOver slope?
think it'll be enough to run PPI 356Cs passive?


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

cancel that.....I just got my ppi art sq 8s today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are nice looking, I will do a full review when I can stop and catch my breath long enough to build my enclosure...One of my two human reign amps will be here thursday.....Im hoping by mid next week I can have all of it in.


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## james911s84 (Sep 30, 2010)

Hi, I am from Singapore. Will be interested to purchase the 6 big capacitors in the Soundstream Rub4.600. Any idea where can I get it? I can't find it in Singapore. Capacitor with such rating is common in Singapore but for such size, I have not seen any yet.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

james911s84 said:


> Hi, I am from Singapore. Will be interested to purchase the 6 big capacitors in the Soundstream Rub4.600. Any idea where can I get it? I can't find it in Singapore. Capacitor with such rating is common in Singapore but for such size, I have not seen any yet.


Whats the value, volts and physical dimensions of them? Also what brand are you wanting?


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

james911s84 said:


> Hi, I am from Singapore. Will be interested to purchase the 6 big capacitors in the Soundstream Rub4.600. Any idea where can I get it? I can't find it in Singapore. Capacitor with such rating is common in Singapore but for such size, I have not seen any yet.


Call our parts department at 323-724-4600. Ask for Vicente...


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