# Comparison: Knu Kolossus VS. WireAndSupply Excelene Welding Cable



## toylocost (Jul 4, 2011)

I saw someone on here recommend getting heavy gauge cable from WireAndSupply, sorry I can't remember who.

Well I ordered some 1/0 and 4awg, was going to get some 8awg but I could not find any on their website, probably too small for welding applications. The smallest they sell seems to be 6awg which would probably be similar in comparison with other 8ga. Since I have all this stuff here I thought I'd take some comparison pics and throw them up...

First off Knu Kolossus 1/0 vs. WireAndSupply Royal Excelene 1/0...
Knu looks a lot bigger from the outside, the actual difference in the amount of copper looks to be negligible. If you are going to really be using it for all it's worth I would stick with the Knu but if you have some headroom the cheap stuff looks fine. Although, if you are worried about this being enough maybe you better just step up to the Wire and Supply 2/0 which is still cheaper than the Knu 1/0. Knu is noticeably more workable but the Excelene will do fine and since the jacket is thinner it will be easier to get into smaller spaces. The biggest and best difference by far is Knu = $3.95/ft vs Excelene = $1.85/ft!



















The differences in sizes are fairly consistent so here are the rest...

Knu Kolossus 4ga @ $1.55/ft VS. WireAndSupply 4awg @ $0.90/ft



















And just so you can see the difference here is Knu 8ga VS WireAndSupply 4awg...



















And here is everything together...


----------



## chucko58 (Feb 7, 2015)

I'm generally skeptical about "premium" wire products. Especially in power supply cables. I could see the added flexibility of the Kolossus as an advantage in tight installations, but IME (battery relocation for weight distribution purposes) welding cable is pretty flexible to start with.


----------



## mrstop (Dec 15, 2009)

Thanks for the comparison. From the pics, the Kolossus doesn't appear to be pure copper like the Excelene. Maybe Kolossus is copper clad steel?


----------



## toylocost (Jul 4, 2011)

mrstop said:


> Thanks for the comparison. From the pics, the Kolossus doesn't appear to be pure copper like the Excelene. Maybe Kolossus is copper clad steel?


Yeah it looks weird in some of the pics but it's copper. From their site...



knukonceptz.com said:


> Kolossus Fleks Kable 1/0 Red Power Wire features 5145 Tinned Strands of Pure Oxygen Free Copper and a new Ultra Fleks Matte PVC Jacket.


----------



## Krank (Dec 2, 2014)

mrstop said:


> Thanks for the comparison. From the pics, the Kolossus doesn't appear to be pure copper like the Excelene. Maybe Kolossus is copper clad steel?


The Kolossus is tinned pure OFC. The tinning is added to the outside of each strand to prevent oxidation of the copper, but it is, for all intents and purposes, still pure oxygen free copper wire.

You can find lots of resources on the net comparing the differences of non-tinned and tinned OFC. For the most part, if i am wiring my boat, tinned is required, otherwise, I will use whatever is available in my garage at the time.


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

Car audio cable is generally oversized. Welding cable is based on strict regulations on sizing, jacket, and current capabilities. Welding cable is true American wire gauge (awg). General consensus is if you want equal to car audio 1/0, get welding 2/0 for half the price. I've seen 2/0 pure ofc copper for under $2ft. You won't find Knu ofc under $3.75ft. But knu is great stuff. Welding cable has stronger jackets though. Chemical, heat, and environmental resistant.


----------



## toylocost (Jul 4, 2011)

nineball76 said:


> Car audio cable is generally oversized. Welding cable is based on strict regulations on sizing, jacket, and current capabilities. Welding cable is true American wire gauge (awg). General consensus is if you want equal to car audio 1/0, get welding 2/0 for half the price. I've seen 2/0 pure ofc copper for under $2ft. You won't find Knu ofc under $3.75ft. But knu is great stuff. Welding cable has stronger jackets though. Chemical, heat, and environmental resistant.


Good info, I might have bought 2/0 if I had know that before. I did notice that the welding cable all used the "awg" term while car audio usually just says "gauge".


----------



## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Krank said:


> The Kolossus is tinned pure OFC. The tinning is added to the outside of each strand to prevent oxidation of the copper, but it is, for all intents and purposes, still pure oxygen free copper wire.


Without oxygen there is no oxidation so how does Oxygen Free Copper corrode if it's oxygen free ??

Good question huh, you can forward to that to Knu Koncepts and send my regards, perhaps they can backpedal away from their marketing hype long enough to offer you a logical explanation on why their oxygen free cable is oxidizing..


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

gstokes said:


> Without oxygen there is no oxidation so how does Oxygen Free Copper corrode if it's oxygen free ??
> 
> Good question huh, you can forward to that to Knu Koncepts and send my regards, perhaps they can backpedal away from their marketing hype long enough to offer you a logical explanation on why their oxygen free cable is oxidizing..


It's not that great of a question.... the oxidation doesn't start from the middle and work it's way out, it starts at the ends where the wire is exposed, unprotected if you fail to properly crimp or solder (whole nother argument right there), then correctly heat shrink.


----------



## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

It could have been cut and sitting around?

Also without calipers how do you visually do this test when you have the thickness of the coating in the measurement?

If you take calipers to it in a tight stretched fixed sides, stripped of the coating, you can make measurements.

In this pic Kolosus looks thinker...


----------



## What? (Jun 5, 2008)

toylocost said:


> Good info, I might have bought 2/0 if I had know that before. I did notice that the welding cable all used the "awg" term while car audio usually just says "gauge".


While not the least expensive, JL Audio and Stinger are AWG.


----------



## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

at the risk of sounding pedantic, wire gauge differences between most welding wire will be negligible.

wire gauge differences between car audio cables, will vary.

the point where people can see what they are paying good money for, is here in this thread.

2/0 is very large. It's a lot of copper, it's usually not found in the car audio, (yes, I know a few carry it, but on the whole 1/0 is where most lines max out) so you're dealing with a welding application which means the durability of the jacket makes it less pretty, the copper is all "there" with assurances as to how heavy (read: consistent) the wire inside is, based on industry standards that mean one cable over a 100 ft. run shouldn't suck out 20 amps more on one company than another, it's a stringency thing.

car audio? The truth of the wind, is that you can place a lot of fluffy copper inside a jacket and it'll bend to the bejesus, but weight is where it's at. Copper weighs an exact amount, and Pure Copper, and OFC Copper, are basically the same thing.

car audio cables that purport extra flexibility, actually can contain less mass, less density, less current carrying capacity.

so just looking at a wire from the end, is not the way to judge copper.

it's "alright" if that sort of thing works well enough for you, but it's not right if the performance of a cable is in question.

The more copper there is in a wire, the heavier that wire gets, and the only way to get the actual AWG standard in a super flexible car audio wire, is to over stuff it, or make it a little bigger.

The use of strand counts are a great way to separate the chaff from the wheat. But you have to expect that at <30 AWG each strand, the variance can be a lot. As that can also be fudged to look like a superior wire is in play. It's funny all the way around to go so technical on copper because if the wire is at least 4 gauge, it'll usually run well in applications that call for 1/0, in car audio charts for amplification.

Now, if they are selling you fluffy 4 gauge, it's possible to have 6 gauge or less amount of actual wire in the cable, which is another argument.

Just remember that if the cable is fluffy and big, it probably will do the work as long as it's copper, and not some variant of CCA that car audio is marketing deceptively.

And if it's welding cable and you got it for half the price, and you can still bend it into your distro block without serious strain on the jacket, you are a WINNER!


a winner. How often do you get to say that...


----------



## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Knu looks like it has more copper Than the welding wire, and that does not mean that the welding wire is not true gauge. What happens is that Knu wires have about 10-12% ( just a guess) more strands, years ago they marketed the extra copper, now for some reason they don't.
P


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

Alrojoca said:


> Knu looks like it has more copper Than the welding wire, and that does not mean that the welding wire is not true gauge. What happens is that Knu wires have about 10-12% ( just a guess) more strands, years ago they marketed the extra copper, now for some reason they don't.
> 
> P



Read my first comment? Knu isn't true awg and isn't held to the strict regs that welding cable is. Car audio cables are generally oversized to try to put them ahead of the next car audio cable maker. Knu 1/0= welding 2/0, but for twice the cost.


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

And Knu 1/0 has what, 5000+ strands of 36awg, welding 2/0 is 1200+ of 30awg.


----------



## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

nineball76 said:


> Read my first comment? Knu isn't true awg and isn't held to the strict regs that welding cable is. Car audio cables are generally oversized to try to put them ahead of the next car audio cable maker. Knu 1/0= welding 2/0, but for twice the cost.



Not sure I buy the " car audio cables are generally oversized"

Knu is larger compared to any wire including car audio wire like TSP, streetwires, stinger, and very noticeably.

Will a regular stinger, TSP )tsunami) look larger than welding cable? 

I doubt it, and if it is, it will be hard to tell. That is what I was trying to say, unless some specs and measurements can verify it. And sometimes more thinner strands may look bigger than less thicker strands.


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

Not my picture but a simple googled returned: 

From left to right: Metra 1/0, Stinger 1/0, Knu Kolossus 1/0, 2/0 Trystar Welding Wire, 2/0 Welding Wire.


----------



## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

looks like the Trystar uses more copper in the strand, unless someone managed to tint metals a darker more copper color. *The KnuKolossus looks too bright*...maybe its silver/Not! They are not using a full copper strand.

Stinger looks good too. Metra looks bad. 

It looks like the order of good to less than is...
1-Trystar
2-Welding Wire
3-Stinger
4-KnuK


----------



## jbeez (Aug 20, 2013)

Thought you guys might appreciate this thread I came across on another forum a while ago, it seems to be a fairly comprehensive analysis of wire

Wire Comparison

including caliper measurements and weights, KNU did well


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> looks like the Trystar uses more copper in the strand, unless someone managed to tint metals a darker more copper color. *The KnuKolossus looks too bright*...maybe its silver/Not! They are not using a full copper strand.
> 
> Stinger looks good too. Metra looks bad.
> 
> ...



The Knu is silver tinned ofc. The only reason Trystar looks better is that insane jacket. The Knu and welding cable look identical size. Which it pretty much is. Mentioned it before, car audio cable is over sized, welding cable has regulations to follow and adhere to. Save your money, welding cable is half the cost and just as good.


----------



## Sine Swept (Sep 3, 2010)

I tend to judge wiring kits by weight. If the weight isn't there, I stay away.


----------



## TaylorFade (Nov 9, 2014)

Good "Car Audio" 1/0 is generally accepted to be closer to 2/0 AWG. That's just how it is.

2/0 is really only minimally more capable than 1/0 anyway (~ 20A). I think some are under the assumption it's twice the ampacity. But whatever.

I use welding cable almost exclusively and have for years. It's made in the USA and I know what I'm getting. And bonus... it's cheaper and available locally. Win-win.


----------



## TaylorFade (Nov 9, 2014)

Here's a few different brands and sizes.



In case you're wondering... the big **** is Sky High "2/0" next to legit 4/0 structural grounding cable.

There's a couple 1/0 and 2/0 welding in there too.


----------



## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

the weight of the wire is as important as strand count, and strand count between say, 29 gauge to 36 gauge, is a lot more important than a few numbers apart.

the reason you see the "big" car audio cables have trouble maintaining their winding dimension after being cut, is because they are fluffy!

fluffy.

fluffy makes it possible to bend the cable easily, fluffy makes it look like the business, fluffy is the way they market car audio cables.

because car audio cables are really a tangential market, they don't have to produce specs that count because car audio is a subjective business.

if it looks good and a car audio brand is legit enough to put their labels on it, then it's probably going to be high enough in quality to do the job. Brand wire like JL and Audison, even Rockford Fosgate, all make quality wire that can be compared to each other.

Brands like DB Link, or Raptor, Scosche, Metra, Stinger, even Streetwires, can vary based on the brand's lines, and some of them are cheaply made to fit a price point.

you can't magically create a copper wire that is built with the same mass as a true welding AWG spec, put it in a fancy clear jacket and build it with a lot of flex in the winding, without it being bigger than the stuff you get at the welding supply.

And some people who techflex their stuff anyway, could purpose their savings on the welding wire, to pay for the techflex. A win-win.

Supporting Knu is great and all, and they do appear to put a little more money in your pocket over the higher end brands, but it's still too high a price for what you get over welding wire.


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> *The KnuKolossus looks too bright*...maybe its silver/Not! They are not using a full copper strand.


The KK is tinned copper. The tinning helps prevent corrosion and oxidation in moist environments and does not effect the conductivity in any negative way.


----------



## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

the general color of the wire even with tinning, might not be that bright though.

I know that once you alloy copper, it begins losing it's conductivity and when you bring it to brass or bronze, it's down quite a bit.

I don't know if it's feasible to make wire out of alloy that costs less, by adding zinc or lead or some other silvery looking metal to copper, based on how much all those added metals cost.

I believe it's possible to source out cheaper wire in Chinese factories, where you don't know how pure the copper is and if someone like KnuConcepts, were to take advantage of that fact, and nobody ever assays the copper in the wire they are selling, they could be making up the short end price-wise, by using less than pure copper.

Generally, car audio might not be an authority, there is probably no CEA-2006 spec that regulates wire and the metal content found in it, so if the wire appears brighter than pure copper, it might be just that.

I know copper does tarnish and it's usually quite bright, and not all that red, or pink for that matter.

But when you cut into a tinned copper wire that claims "OFC" then it shouldn't have tinning at all, it should be pure in my opinion.

after all, OFC just stands for Oxygen Free Copper, which doesn't really mean Oxidation free either.

and Copper doesn't rust, it corrodes and tin is more inert, not going to corrode in normal atmosphere.

After seeing copper wire turn green inside it's clear plastic jacket, I think tinned copper is better for any purpose, not just marine environments.


----------



## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

The brighter silver tone may be a different material used, not tin plated but nickel plated.

Some of the car power wires use nickel instead of tin, I believe streetwires is one of them


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Cajunner, it is true that I have no real idea, other then what KK claims, what copper alloy (if any) is actually in the wire they make. That being said, them many times that I have cut tinned OFC with regular wire cutters, the tinning being soft, is often squished/pulled over the ends of the cut wire, making it appear silver instead of copper colored.


----------



## johnbooth3 (Feb 26, 2008)

Sub'd


----------



## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

gstokes said:


> Without oxygen there is no oxidation so how does Oxygen Free Copper corrode if it's oxygen free ??
> 
> Good question huh, you can forward to that to Knu Koncepts and send my regards, perhaps they can backpedal away from their marketing hype long enough to offer you a logical explanation on why their oxygen free cable is oxidizing..


hey now...

don't take this the wrong way, man.

but OFC copper just means that they reduced the amount of oxygen in the copper through a process of purifying it, it's still 100% copper but the alloy designation is that it is a more refined product.

they aren't claiming corrosion resistance from the process.

OFC copper is a higher electrical grade, it's purpose is to make a better conductor of electricity. Some solid copper items don't need this refinement, like copper cookware or roofing products.

The difference between 101 copper and 110 copper, isn't all that much but there are some specialized applications where it makes sense.


In a car audio cable, using pure copper, is all that really matters and paying extra for the OFC cable is actually a marketing thing, for at least a couple reasons. One, the manufacturer can use pure copper but not OFC grade, and you and I won't ever be able to tell the difference. Two, the supposed bump in quality that allows the manufacturer to charge more for essentially the same product, means that we are paying for profits to the manufacturer, more than we are getting in better wire. Unless of course, the copper that the Chinese plant uses is so inferior in quality that upgrading to an OFC specification, increases the quality of the wire to a measurable extent.

And don't you want to believe that OFC grade wire is better? And don't you want it in your car if you have the chance to get OFC wire for the same price as "plain" copper?

I would, since I'm vain and all, but also because the chances of that wire being better than the normal Chinese factory output based on manufacturer claims, might indicate that is where pure copper is being used and not some inferior alloy that dilutes the copper base with alloy ingredients that are cheaper and make the wire less conductive.


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

johnbooth3 said:


> Sub'd



There's a button that'll do that without posting


----------



## johnbooth3 (Feb 26, 2008)

nineball76 said:


> There's a button that'll do that without posting



Correct. I forget about that. I shouldn't be looking at forums when I should be sleeping. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I just wanted to add it might have been me that was pushing the "wireandsupply" place but that's only because I learned it here long ago. That said, I found something better. I placed a big (for me) order of 75ft each of 1/0, 4, and 6 gauge from another company online, that sells Radaflex. This stuff is much more flexible than Royal Excelene, and it comes from using higher gauge copper and much more of it. This stuff has now become my absolute number one go-to. It is amazing. Cableyard was the place, now that I remember.


----------



## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Amazing comparison. I took this picture today. AAA battery is exactly the same size OD as standard quality 4 gauge car audio power wire. Pictures are deceiving 

And the black 1/0 wire on the first post is also identical in OD as a AA battery


----------



## Pariah Zero (Mar 23, 2016)

Alrojoca said:


> Amazing comparison. I took this picture today. AAA battery is exactly the same size OD as standard quality 4 gauge car audio power wire. Pictures are deceiving
> 
> And the black 1/0 wire on the first post is also identical in OD as a AA battery



There's something to be said about the difference between AWG and "gauge"

It's kind of like comparing "horsepower" to "horseys".

One is a legally protected term, with regulations, standardization, etc.

The other is marketing, having no actual standard.

I'll take AWG wire, thanks.

I actually just got a "sample" order of royal excellene. I like it.

The real surprise is that my cat seems to prefer the Royal Excellene over catnip. I'm not sure if I should be happy or worried about that.


----------



## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

I got a welding wire called Toughflex, very similarto excellene, smaller OD
And I use this Chart to verify the conductors are accurate for the proper gauge.

Knu wire may be better but it's oversize, the zero gauge is more like 2/0, bigger an harder to fit in some areas


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

It would be interesting to cut identical lengths of each sample, pull off the jacket and weigh the strands. I've always used welding wire. Some of it has been in vehicles for 10 years + with no issues.


----------



## Pariah Zero (Mar 23, 2016)

Rudeboy said:


> It would be interesting to cut identical lengths of each sample, pull off the jacket and weigh the strands. I've always used welding wire. Some of it has been in vehicles for 10 years + with no issues.




There are videos of that on YouTube.
Short version: car audio cable has a lot of air in it. (As was said earlier in the thread - it's "fluffy"). Welding cable has more copper, which means less resistance, and more current capacity.

So while the car audio stuff is physically larger, it has the same (and often less) copper inside. It's more flexible, and looks bigger, so people think it's worth paying more.

The whole reason many car audio wire you see calls itself 1/0 _gauge_ instead of 1/0 AWG is because it doesn't meet the standard to have AWG stamped on it. (The diameter, copper content, and current capacity of AWG wire is strictly regulated; you get none of those guarantees by using wire marketed as 1/0 _gauge_.)

As far as having tinned copper (vs plain copper) - it's a mixed bag. You might get better corrosion resistance with tinned wire, but you will also get tin whiskers that can grow through and pierce the insulation; potentially causing a plasma arc that might start a fire before the fuse blows. Pure copper will conduct better than tinned.

Oddly enough, one of the virtues of aluminum wire is that it still one of the best electrical conductors (though not quite as good as copper, silver, or gold), but is far more resistant to corrosion than copper or silver. Gold isn't used for wire for obvious reasons- copper is better & far cheaper)


----------



## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Interesting, I thought the car wire was actually bigger in OD and conductor diameter.

I have always been a fan of less strands, less mess and easier to work with. It makes sense the more strands, the more separation between them and the bigger it may appear to be.


----------



## Pariah Zero (Mar 23, 2016)

Alrojoca said:


> Interesting, I thought the car wire was actually bigger in OD and conductor diameter.
> 
> 
> 
> I have always been a fan of less strands, less mess and easier to work with. It makes sense the more strands, the more separation between them and the bigger it may appear to be.



Car wire *is* bigger in OD and conductor diameter. Diameter itself means nothing if it isn't filled with solid metal.

Fluffy air-filled gaps take up space, and car audio wire has much thicker insulation - insulation is cheap and looks bigger.

Neither air nor insulation carry current, but it's great for marketing to the crowd that looks only at the diameter of the insulated wire.

Which is why actual AWG wire can do a better job and be thinner as well. The copper is much more dense, and it's the copper (not air) that carries the current.

The whole reason AWG wire has tight standards and is regulated is so Engineers know exactly what they are getting, because people's lives may depend on it.


----------



## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Maybe Knu is the only car wire with accurate or equivalent AWG since all their wires are like 15-20% bigger On both conductor and insulation although they have 2/3 if not more strands the welding wire.


----------



## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Another I would have liked in this discussion.. I've been rather pleased with JSC wire from PE.. Has served me very well without much corrosion at all.


----------



## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Still voting for Radaflex as the best cable I've used, the stuff just does its job so well. I can get some comparison shots if you want/need but trust me, this is the best welding cable (and thus some of the best wire) available, at least that I've found.

Cableyard still sells it for a good price, especially in bulk. I still have about 1/3 my inventory, but it is getting used up quick!

I upgraded most of the vital wiring on this C5 Vette I've been doing. Here's a shot of their sad ground wire from battery to frame, vs. my Radaflex 1/0 AWG










This is 4 AWG vs. the piddly stuff GM used to run from the battery to the main fuse/relay box nearby.









What I really like is the dual sheathing. That internal sheath is really slick so when you bend this stuff, it accepts a fairly tight bend and holds it fairly well by slipping the external insulator against the inner, near as I can tell. I like how this copper is much finer gauge inside, but there's a ton of it so the cross section is right on point but you're not fighting that sensation of wiring solid-core ****. You know, where you're bleeding from needle pokes of copper, or where you can't twist the wire down into its proper receptacle. 

They have a 6 AWG wire which I use in place of 8 gauge, and that is some nice simple stuff too.


----------



## Pariah Zero (Mar 23, 2016)

fourthmeal said:


> What I really like is the dual sheathing. That internal sheath is really slick so when you bend this stuff, it accepts a fairly tight bend and holds it fairly well by slipping the external insulator against the inner, near as I can tell.


I like double sheathing too. The internal sheath is probably PFTE (Teflon), as it's a great insulator and can tolerate a lot of heat without melting.



> ...but you're not fighting that sensation of wiring solid-core ****. You know, where you're bleeding from needle pokes of copper, or where you can't twist the wire down into its proper receptacle.


I somehow doubt you've run 4 gauge solid copper, or else you'd _never_ compare welding cable to solid. Welding cable is very flexible by design. Sure, you won't tie it into tight knots, but you should respect the bend radius of the cable in any install.

The National Electrical Code (in the US) defines minimum wire bending radius for all wire. If you bend the cables tighter than the bending radius, then you're risking the long term safety and reliability of the cable.


----------

