# New gear I’ve picked up recently (Phass, Morel, Vais)



## ISTundra (Jan 3, 2009)

Not that I really need to be buying anything at the moment… but I’ve been looking for items to add to my build in my IS350. Here’s some stuff I’ve picked up recently.

First up… Phass MD0790. I believe this is the top of the line midbass offering from Phass. I got these from Buzzman (Don Gibson), who is the Phass distributor for NA.


















I thought I took pics of the driver before it was installed, but apparently not. It doesn’t look particularly beefy like an 18W or visually cool like an L6SE, and I couldn’t tell ya what kind of juju technology it has in its construction, other than an Alnico magnet and a plastic frame (which was a little surprising to me). Right now, they are paired (as a dedicated midbass) with L4SE’s, BP’ed from 60-500hz).

I hate to use subjective, openly-defined terms in describing a driver’s response, but I will say these are very “musical”. There’s nice amount of tonal warmth present, but it’s still natural sounding at the same time and not over-colored. Certainly, they don’t seem to get as muddy or boomy sounding with some low end boost as other mids I’ve tried in this vehicle. They don’t have tremendous midbass output like the 18W’s and the Pioneer Stage 4 mids that I also own, but maybe similar to an L6 in midbass output (but not tone). Overall, really nice-sounding detailed drivers. I’d say I have about 40 hours on them, so they may not be fully broke in yet.


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## ISTundra (Jan 3, 2009)

Next up… Phass DTM25 tweeter & pod. I won these as a raffle prize at a local GTG. I can’t say too much about them yet, as I only dropped them in my truck and only listened to them for about a week or so. I wasn’t sure how to implement these in my install, so the Buzzman set me up with these uber-cool tweeter pods. Turned aluminum construction, with a swivel mounting stem for some aiming adjustability. They’re a perfect fit for the tweeter. My only complaint is the thru-hole on the stem is pretty small, tight even for a pair of 16ga wires to pass through. I’ll probably get these re-done in black once I’ve had time to trial them in the system.


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## ISTundra (Jan 3, 2009)

Next… Morel Ultimo 12. Used, this came out of Buzzman’s Benz, where many have heard how great this sub can sound. I bought a vehicle specific sealed corner loaded enclosure from Boxology/Science of Sound Boxology to put this in. I first saw this enclosure getting rave reviews on Club Lexus, but Bing also appears to be a be a fan of it as well. It’s well-constructed, ~1.3 c. ft, fits perfectly out of the way, and frees my trunk from the hideous pre-fab box with 2 10-W3’s I’ve been rolling with for 4 years. The Ultimo fit perfectly into the mounting ring, so perfect that I couldn’t get the octopus grille to install over it, which was kind of a bummer. I just installed it today and only have 300w available to power it right now, so I’ll refrain from any evaluation at this time.


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## ISTundra (Jan 3, 2009)

Vais VML, Ipod/USB/HDD OEM integration unit for Toyota & Lexus vehicles.

I’ve actually had this for quite a while. It’s a nice unit, truly plug & play, with seamless OEM NAV integration and digital audio. It supports internal HDD, externa HDD (thru the USB),USB, IPOD audio, MP3, WAV, FLAC, etc. with tags. They have a newer version that now supports Ipod video as well, but it’s quite spendy.


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## UNFORGIVEN (Sep 25, 2010)

I must say i'm really diggin the equipment in this build. 
The shape of your stealth box is definitely unique aslo.... how does that maximo perform in it?


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

ISTundra said:


> Not that I really need to be buying anything at the moment… but I’ve been looking for items to add to my build in my IS350. Here’s some stuff I’ve picked up recently.
> 
> First up… Phass MD0790. I believe this is the top of the line midbass offering from Phass. I got these from Buzzman (Don Gibson), who is the Phass distributor for NA.
> 
> ...


Here is a stock photo of the MD 0790. 










Yes, it has an injection molded hard plastic frame. The designer determined that the plastic frame had much better anti-resonant properties than the cast metal frames that had been used with other midbasses. There is no "juju" technology, just attention to detail with the goal of reproducing music as accurately and naturally as possible. In addition to the use of an Alnico magnet, the cone is made from a special Japanese paper and the surround is made from a natural cotton fabric. It is quite efficient with a rating of 91db with a 1 watt input, so you should get quite a bit of output. And, yes, it does take a lot of playing time to properly loosen up the suspension and surround.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

ISTundra said:


> Not that I really need to be buying anything at the moment… but I’ve been looking for items to add to my build in my IS350. Here’s some stuff I’ve picked up recently.
> 
> First up… Phass MD0790. I believe this is the top of the line midbass offering from Phass. I got these from Buzzman (Don Gibson), who is the Phass distributor for NA.
> 
> ...


Very cool, they look awesome!

What more could you say about L6 vs. this woofer? How is the tone different?

I also wonder what the top end ability of this driver is but you have it playing so low, one cannot tell. 

BTW, Scan 18W has more midbass output than L6....really?

And just to clarify, is it more midbass or subbass output?


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Buzzman said:


> Here is a stock photo of the MD 0790.


That doesn't look like AlNiCo. It looks like a ceramic magnet with a blue rim.


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## ISTundra (Jan 3, 2009)

FG79 said:


> Very cool, they look awesome!
> 
> What more could you say about L6 vs. this woofer? How is the tone different?
> 
> ...


Again, I hate to use subjective descriptions… but the Phass has a nice amount of rich resonant warmth in the bass tones, not too overdone like the 18W can sound at times. I would not describe the L6 as warm sounding at all, compared to the other drivers I mentioned here. Accurate & detailed yes, but the L6 is bit emotionless as well. To be fair, I had the L6SE installed in this system before the Phass driver, so I’m comparing it more to that than the L6 (which I also had installed in this system a while back). 

The 18W has the most warmth & output of all of these; it kicks the **** out of the L6/L6SE in my opinion. 

I believe the MD0790 is a dedicated midbass (no phase plug) so I doubt it can play as high as an L6 or L6SE can. I have only run it up to 600hz or so.

I like the sound of all the mentioned drivers in this thread, for varying reasons. I’m not ready yet to give my order of preference if I were starting from scratch and looking to buy one over again, but I will say the Phass driver would be high on my list and the L6/L6SE would be near the bottom.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

ISTundra said:


> Again, I hate to use subjective descriptions… but the Phass has a nice amount of rich resonant warmth in the bass tones, not too overdone like the 18W can sound at times. I would not describe the L6 as warm sounding at all, compared to the other drivers I mentioned here. Accurate & detailed yes, but the L6 is bit emotionless as well. To be fair, I had the L6SE installed in this system before the Phass driver, so I’m comparing it more to that than the L6 (which I also had installed in this system a while back).
> 
> The 18W has the most warmth & output of all of these; it kicks the **** out of the L6/L6SE in my opinion.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the review, much appreciated.

My only concern with the 18W and Phass are that they cannot play high so for a 2 way they are probably out (unless it's 2 way with horns maybe), despite their tonal/midbass advantages. 

Phass seems very appealing based on its construction....it resembles the high end home system woofers I like more than anything else I've seen. 

Really would like to know how high they can play....Buzzman? I know they sell comp sets as 2 ways so they have to be able to play somewhat high. 

And then there's the issue of price....Hybrid and Scan Speak are similar, while Phass is significantly more I believe.


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## BurnOut956 (Sep 3, 2007)

Thats a cool looking tweeter pod.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> That doesn't look like AlNiCo. It looks like a ceramic magnet with a blue rim.


And the cone looks like aluminum painted to look like paper.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Buzzman said:


> And the cone looks like aluminum painted to look like paper.


Please think before you write next time, OK? 

Different magnet types look different in ways that cannot be altered as easily as the surface color/texture of a cone can be. AlNiCo magnets used by competent drive-unit makers (e.g. Tannoy, JBL, Altec, TAD, and so on) have two traits that this Phass driver doesn't:
1) They are potted to provide magnetic return path, with an air gap between motor and return structure; and
2) the slugs are much thinner than the top/bottom plates, because one doesn't need as much magnet to reach a given flux as one does with ferroceramic motors.

Some examples of cutaway diagrams showing what the motor structures of drive units known to use AlNiCo magnet look like:

Tannoy Monitor Gold








Comparison between a ceramic-motor driver (top) and an AlNiCo magnet JBL (bottom):









Altec 604:









TAD 1601a









Random smaller vintage AlNiCo magnet driver I found:









I could go on but I think the point is made.

Note that _none_ of the above drivers have motors that look like short and wide black ceramic disks that overhang the top and bottom plates and are finished off with a colored edge, as this allegedly AlNiCo-magnet driver does:










Can you find me *one AlNiCo magnet driver by a known competent maker* (a "high end" car-fi firm such as this "Phass" obviously does not count as a "known competent maker") that has an AlNiCo magnet so thick that it hangs over the top and bottom plates?

But let's assume _arguendo_ that the magnet is in fact AlNiCo. Given the thickness of the slug, that leaves two logical possibilities: (1) the gap is extraordinarily wide, or (2) there is so much magnetic force that the driver's Qes is extraordinary low, as in 0.0x region. As one would expect from such a vender, a search for "Phass AlNiCo Qes" on Google turned up zero information.

Note that I've taken no position on the relative sonic properties of AlNiCo vs. ferroceramic or neo motors. I could do so, but won't because that's out of the scope of this thread. Perhaps you would like to say a few words AlNiCo demagnetization under high heat, though...

I'm simply challenging a factual assertion that the above-pictured driver has an AlNiCo magnet. Based on the evidence presented, i.e. the above picture, that assertion is more likely than not simply incorrect. But, IF the assertion that the magnet in the above-pictured drive-unit is AlNiCo is in fact true, then what he have is a spectacularly expensive misuse of materials.


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## ~Spyne~ (Oct 17, 2008)

PHASS | About Phass | High -End Car Audio
Go about 3/4 way down and you will see a pic of the magnet on the left side of the page. I don't know if that helps at all, proves or disproves your argument?
Also, in response to your obviously negative insinuations about Phass not being a high-end car audio manufacturer, Phass have been making AlNiCo magnet speakers for a number of years and in Japan are considered at the VERY high-end of car audio manufacturers.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> Please think before you write next time, OK?
> 
> Different magnet types look different in ways that cannot be altered as easily as the surface color/texture of a cone can be. AlNiCo magnets used by competent drive-unit makers (e.g. Tannoy, JBL, Altec, TAD, and so on) have two traits that this Phass driver doesn't:
> 1) They are potted to provide magnetic return path, with an air gap between motor and return structure; and
> ...


During the time that I have been a member of this forum I have read many of your posts. Based on what I have read I have seen many signs of intelligence. However, I have found you generally to be obnoxious, pompous, self-aggrandizing and condescending, and as a result, not smart. There is a difference between being intelligent and smart, as I am sure you know. Your post above is prima facie evidence of my point. In your first sentence you suggest I “think before _ write next time.” But, you see, I always think before I write; ascribe it to my training as a lawyer. Clearly, you did not think before you wrote your specious post, and just as clearly you know nothing about Phass and even less about me. 

Phass has been in business since 1996, under the guidance of Shogo Kurokochi, its founder. Mr. Kurokochi is an honorable man who has built a successful company, and its products have been sold all over the world. Phass has used AlNiCo magnets in its top line speaker products since 2002. Never in the company’s existence has anyone accused Phass of fraudulently representing its products, nor has Phass ever been found to have fraudulently represented its products. Yet you, who do not own a Phass product (and I would venture to say have never owned one given (let me put this kindly) your frugal nature), and have never touched a Phass product to my knowledge, have the audacity to simply look at a photograph of one of our products and in a public forum, and without ANY substantive evidence, accuse the company of fraud. You show “cutaways” of other alnico magnet motor structures, but offer no such images of the Phass product as evidence that the described magnet structure is in fact not ALNiCo. Your perception or supposition is not evidence. You attempt to qualify your unfounded attack by (1) characterizing the images you show as products of companies you consider “known competent maker(s),” (2) characterizing Phass as not among those you consider “known competent maker(s),” and (3) suggesting that if the methodology used by these “known competent maker(s) is not used, that something is amiss. You then compound things by stating that if “arguendo” the magnet used in the MD 0790 is in fact ALNiCo (meaning that you were wrong in your assertion), that there must surely be some performance issues or even a gross misuse of materials, because no “known competent maker(s)” of which you are aware executes ALNiCo magnet structures the way you surmise that Phass does. So, you still find a way to disparage the brand (again on pure supposition) even if your initial allegation was wrong. I won’t debate with you which manner of motor system execution is “right” or “wrong” because all of these points are irrelevant and are secondary to the primary issue here: your accusation of fraud. 

Your unfounded accusation questions the integrity of Phass and all who represent the brand, and thus you have attacked me personally as well. I will not engage in a debate with you regarding how ALNiCo magnets are “supposed” to look, or how other manufacturers execute an ALNiCo magnet motor structure. Nor will I do research for you to produce evidence of a “known competent maker” that might execute an ALNiCo magnet motor structure similar to Phass. That too is irrelevant. (Actually, you might be wise to look at the latest ALNiCo offerings from Seas Exotics, assuming they are “known and competent” enough for you.) I own Phass ALNiCo based products and know what Phass represents. Phass could provide you a primer on the ALNiCo magnet motor structure used by the company and the rationale for such design, but under the circumstances I do not think that should be our burden. After all, it is you who have launched the missile without foundation. And as is customary in our judicial system, the burden of proof is on the accuser. So, I will make you a simple proposition instead: You purchase a pair of the MD 0790. The suggested retail price is $1,275 per pair. But, to make things easy for you and your apparently light wallet I will charge you dealer cost and pay for the shipping to you. Take the speakers apart and do whatever you deem necessary to properly examine them, and publish evidence that the magnet structure is in fact not ALNiCo. If you are able to do so, not only will we reimburse your money, but we will double it; no, we will triple it! However, when you conclude that the magnet structure is in fact ALNiCo, all we ask is that you agree to appear at a photo session I will set up, and during which I will drop my pants and drawers to reveal a Phass logo on my backside. You will place your lips against that logo and be photographed, and the photo will be published on this forum along with a public letter of apology and retraction from you. So, how about putting your money where your big, fat mouth is for a change? _


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

FG79 said:


> . . .
> 
> Really would like to know how high they can play....Buzzman? I know they sell comp sets as 2 ways so they have to be able to play somewhat high.


The MD 0790 have a very wide frequency capability. How high you wish to low pass them in an active system really depends on the tweeter you will use. In the HS 2.65AL-C 2-way system, they are low passed at 3.6 KHz with a 6 db slope. They can be low passed higher if you deem it necessary, or desirable.


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## jasonjordan584 (Apr 27, 2009)

Buzzman said:


> The MD 0790 have a very wide frequency capability. How high you wish to low pass them in an active system really depends on the tweeter you will use. In the HS 2.65AL-C 2-way system, they are low passed at 3.6 KHz with a 6 db slope. They can be low passed higher if you deem it necessary, or desirable.


whats the prices on the high end sets?


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

jasonjordan584 said:


> whats the prices on the high end sets?


Please send me a PM and we can discuss this further.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Buzzman said:


> During the time that I have been a member of this forum I have read many of your posts. Based on what I have read I have seen many signs of intelligence. However, I have found you generally to be obnoxious, pompous, self-aggrandizing and condescending, and as a result, not smart. There is a difference between being intelligent and smart, as I am sure you know. Your post above is prima facie evidence of my point. In your first sentence you suggest I “think before _ write next time.” But, you see, I always think before I write; ascribe it to my training as a lawyer. Clearly, you did not think before you wrote your specious post, and just as clearly you know nothing about Phass and even less about me.
> 
> Phass has been in business since 1996, under the guidance of Shogo Kurokochi, its founder. Mr. Kurokochi is an honorable man who has built a successful company, and its products have been sold all over the world. Phass has used AlNiCo magnets in its top line speaker products since 2002. Never in the company’s existence has anyone accused Phass of fraudulently representing its products, nor has Phass ever been found to have fraudulently represented its products. Yet you, who do not own a Phass product (and I would venture to say have never owned one given (let me put this kindly) your frugal nature), and have never touched a Phass product to my knowledge, have the audacity to simply look at a photograph of one of our products and in a public forum, and without ANY substantive evidence, accuse the company of fraud. You show “cutaways” of other alnico magnet motor structures, but offer no such images of the Phass product as evidence that the described magnet structure is in fact not ALNiCo. Your perception or supposition is not evidence. You attempt to qualify your unfounded attack by (1) characterizing the images you show as products of companies you consider “known competent maker(s),” (2) characterizing Phass as not among those you consider “known competent maker(s),” and (3) suggesting that if the methodology used by these “known competent maker(s) is not used, that something is amiss. You then compound things by stating that if “arguendo” the magnet used in the MD 0790 is in fact ALNiCo (meaning that you were wrong in your assertion), that there must surely be some performance issues or even a gross misuse of materials, because no “known competent maker(s)” of which you are aware executes ALNiCo magnet structures the way you surmise that Phass does. So, you still find a way to disparage the brand (again on pure supposition) even if your initial allegation was wrong. I won’t debate with you which manner of motor system execution is “right” or “wrong” because all of these points are irrelevant and are secondary to the primary issue here: your accusation of fraud.
> 
> Your unfounded accusation questions the integrity of Phass and all who represent the brand, and thus you have attacked me personally as well. I will not engage in a debate with you regarding how ALNiCo magnets are “supposed” to look, or how other manufacturers execute an ALNiCo magnet motor structure. Nor will I do research for you to produce evidence of a “known competent maker” that might execute an ALNiCo magnet motor structure similar to Phass. That too is irrelevant. (Actually, you might be wise to look at the latest ALNiCo offerings from Seas Exotics, assuming they are “known and competent” enough for you.) I own Phass ALNiCo based products and know what Phass represents. Phass could provide you a primer on the ALNiCo magnet motor structure used by the company and the rationale for such design, but under the circumstances I do not think that should be our burden. After all, it is you who have launched the missile without foundation. And as is customary in our judicial system, the burden of proof is on the accuser. So, I will make you a simple proposition instead: You purchase a pair of the MD 0790. The suggested retail price is $1,275 per pair. But, to make things easy for you and your apparently light wallet I will charge you dealer cost and pay for the shipping to you. Take the speakers apart and do whatever you deem necessary to properly examine them, and publish evidence that the magnet structure is in fact not ALNiCo. If you are able to do so, not only will we reimburse your money, but we will double it; no, we will triple it! However, when you conclude that the magnet structure is in fact ALNiCo, all we ask is that you agree to appear at a photo session I will set up, and during which I will drop my pants and drawers to reveal a Phass logo on my backside. You will place your lips against that logo and be photographed, and the photo will be published on this forum along with a public letter of apology and retraction from you. So, how about putting your money where your big, fat mouth is for a change? _


_

Bravo!!!_


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

Buzzman said:


> During the time that I have been a member of this forum I have read many of your posts. Based on what I have read I have seen many signs of intelligence. However, I have found you generally to be obnoxious, pompous, self-aggrandizing and condescending, and as a result, not smart. There is a difference between being intelligent and smart, as I am sure you know. Your post above is prima facie evidence of my point. In your first sentence you suggest I “think before _ write next time.” But, you see, I always think before I write; ascribe it to my training as a lawyer. Clearly, you did not think before you wrote your specious post, and just as clearly you know nothing about Phass and even less about me.
> 
> Phass has been in business since 1996, under the guidance of Shogo Kurokochi, its founder. Mr. Kurokochi is an honorable man who has built a successful company, and its products have been sold all over the world. Phass has used AlNiCo magnets in its top line speaker products since 2002. Never in the company’s existence has anyone accused Phass of fraudulently representing its products, nor has Phass ever been found to have fraudulently represented its products. Yet you, who do not own a Phass product (and I would venture to say have never owned one given (let me put this kindly) your frugal nature), and have never touched a Phass product to my knowledge, have the audacity to simply look at a photograph of one of our products and in a public forum, and without ANY substantive evidence, accuse the company of fraud. You show “cutaways” of other alnico magnet motor structures, but offer no such images of the Phass product as evidence that the described magnet structure is in fact not ALNiCo. Your perception or supposition is not evidence. You attempt to qualify your unfounded attack by (1) characterizing the images you show as products of companies you consider “known competent maker(s),” (2) characterizing Phass as not among those you consider “known competent maker(s),” and (3) suggesting that if the methodology used by these “known competent maker(s) is not used, that something is amiss. You then compound things by stating that if “arguendo” the magnet used in the MD 0790 is in fact ALNiCo (meaning that you were wrong in your assertion), that there must surely be some performance issues or even a gross misuse of materials, because no “known competent maker(s)” of which you are aware executes ALNiCo magnet structures the way you surmise that Phass does. So, you still find a way to disparage the brand (again on pure supposition) even if your initial allegation was wrong. I won’t debate with you which manner of motor system execution is “right” or “wrong” because all of these points are irrelevant and are secondary to the primary issue here: your accusation of fraud.
> 
> Your unfounded accusation questions the integrity of Phass and all who represent the brand, and thus you have attacked me personally as well. I will not engage in a debate with you regarding how ALNiCo magnets are “supposed” to look, or how other manufacturers execute an ALNiCo magnet motor structure. Nor will I do research for you to produce evidence of a “known competent maker” that might execute an ALNiCo magnet motor structure similar to Phass. That too is irrelevant. (Actually, you might be wise to look at the latest ALNiCo offerings from Seas Exotics, assuming they are “known and competent” enough for you.) I own Phass ALNiCo based products and know what Phass represents. Phass could provide you a primer on the ALNiCo magnet motor structure used by the company and the rationale for such design, but under the circumstances I do not think that should be our burden. After all, it is you who have launched the missile without foundation. And as is customary in our judicial system, the burden of proof is on the accuser. So, I will make you a simple proposition instead: You purchase a pair of the MD 0790. The suggested retail price is $1,275 per pair. But, to make things easy for you and your apparently light wallet I will charge you dealer cost and pay for the shipping to you. Take the speakers apart and do whatever you deem necessary to properly examine them, and publish evidence that the magnet structure is in fact not ALNiCo. If you are able to do so, not only will we reimburse your money, but we will double it; no, we will triple it! However, when you conclude that the magnet structure is in fact ALNiCo, all we ask is that you agree to appear at a photo session I will set up, and during which I will drop my pants and drawers to reveal a Phass logo on my backside. You will place your lips against that logo and be photographed, and the photo will be published on this forum along with a public letter of apology and retraction from you. So, how about putting your money where your big, fat mouth is for a change? _


_

Where's the handclap smiley when you need it?! 

LOL, don't worry Buzz...DS-21 is legendary for trying to be a whistleblower on "allegedly" misrepresented products. He does appear to be a smart guy, but for some reason has the need to be critical in this area. My KEF subs in his mind aren't genuine KEF despite the fact that they 110% sound like something they would make.

As for your offer, I see it all the time when the truth is undeniable. Unfortunately, I doubt DS will take you up on it....even if you gave them for free. 

The theory I'm told is mightier than the reality. 

;-)

With regards to Phass, I haven't heard them but my spidey sense tells me they probably are great. Among many other things, here's the biggest reason:

The US market doesn't seem to care for them. LMAO! 

If the market sweats the s**** out of something, most likely I'll pass. Been there, done that, have the Chapter 7 papers and disappointment to go with it!

My buddy and I actually take notice of what's unpopular and figure that they are good. Alnico magnets are the domain of the true esoteric high end, along with paper cones, low excursion, etc. The huge passive crossovers also are a hint of quality. 

Actually you know, I did hear Phass ONCE....back on a soundboard in NYC (Audio Designs) in 2003. Back then I didn't appreciate it as much as I would now but it was a very smooth sounding comp set._


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

FG79 said:


> Where's the handclap smiley when you need it?!
> 
> LOL, don't worry Buzz...DS-21 is legendary for trying to be a whistleblower on "allegedly" misrepresented products. He does appear to be a smart guy, but for some reason has the need to be critical in this area. My KEF subs in his mind aren't genuine KEF despite the fact that they 110% sound like something they would make.


They are of course genuine in that KEF licensed their name to Coustic, and Coustic designed and produced them pursuant to that agreement. Are they made by KEF Audio UK? No. Are the cone materials and some of the other stuff rooted in KEF Audio UK product, or were they subsequently adopted by KEF Audio UK for their own products? No. They were an evolution of Rich Coe's work at Infinity and Coustic.

Does all of that mean that they don't necessarily perform as well as KEF Audio UK made products? I never claimed that. In fact, I expressed _admiration_ for the KEF subs' actual predecessors, the Infinity Beta subs and the Coustic Design Reference subs. I wouldn't be surprised if the KEF-made KEF subs are in fact not as good as the CoustiKEFs!



FG79 said:


> As for your offer, I see it all the time when the truth is undeniable. Unfortunately, I doubt DS will take you up on it....even if you gave them for free.


You are correct. Now, if he wished to purchase my time at my standard rate, I could offer him an engagement letter and that process could proceed.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Buzzman said:


> During the time that I have been a member of this forum I have read many of your posts. Based on what I have read I have seen many signs of intelligence.


I, alas, cannot return the compliment to you. You seem obsessed with boutique brand names rather than actual sonic performance. Your petulant but vacuous word salad in response to my simple and direct inquiry goes to further my general impression of your intellect as it applies to audio. (Same applies to your feckless ass-kisser, Jerry.)

To remind you, my rather simple inquiry was: 

*Can you find me one AlNiCo magnet driver by a known competent maker (a "high end" car-fi firm such as this "Phass" obviously does not count as a "known competent maker") that has an AlNiCo magnet so thick that it hangs over the top and bottom plates?*



Buzzman said:


> In your first sentence you suggest I “think before _ write next time.” But, you see, I always think before I write;_


_

A reasonable and knowledgable person will see scant evidence of meaningful thought in either your replies to me in this thread. Or at any rate, one sees a simply inability to marshal sufficient meaningful thought to answer a very direct and simple inquiry. Which was, for reference:

*Can you find me one AlNiCo magnet driver by a known competent maker (a "high end" car-fi firm such as this "Phass" obviously does not count as a "known competent maker") that has an AlNiCo magnet so thick that it hangs over the top and bottom plates?*



Buzzman said:



ascribe it to my training as a lawyer.

Click to expand...

A competent attorney would know that what you just did with that statement is called, in FRE parlance, "opening the door." So now I'm going to walk through it!

If you do indeed have "training as a lawyer," you write like one who graded bottom-quartile from a TTT school, both in form and content. (And if you are indeed a lawyer, you will know what "TTT" means.) Pray tell, did you go to Thomas Cooley? 



Buzzman said:



Phass has been in business since 1996, under the guidance of Shogo Kurokochi, its founder.

Click to expand...

That information is, of course, utterly Irrelevant to the inquiry at hand, which is:

*Can you find me one AlNiCo magnet driver by a known competent maker (a "high end" car-fi firm such as this "Phass" obviously does not count as a "known competent maker") that has an AlNiCo magnet so thick that it hangs over the top and bottom plates?*



Buzzman said:



Never in the company’s existence has anyone accused Phass of fraudulently representing its products, nor has Phass ever been found to have fraudulently represented its products.

Click to expand...

Well, one could say that the people who pay attention to firms that sell four-figure plastic-basket 7" woofers with fetish-object magnets as a prime marketing point aren't generally going to be technically literate enough to dispute any claims about the product, but again, your comment is simply out of the scope of the inquiry. Which is, again, 

*Can you find me one AlNiCo magnet driver by a known competent maker (a "high end" car-fi firm such as this "Phass" obviously does not count as a "known competent maker") that has an AlNiCo magnet so thick that it hangs over the top and bottom plates?*

In fairness, I don't know if if you simply posted the wrong picture and are simply too inept to know it. (Your picture, it has been noted by someone else, differs from the one on the Phass website. 

Given your demonstrated competence, I would say the possibility of you simply having posted the wrong picture without realizing it is in fact quite high.

But regardless, one of those two points, supra, is almost certainly true. And my statements are reasonable inferences drawn from the proffered evidence. 

Furthermore, if you were a competent lawyer, you would've read my post in its entirety. Here's what I wrote, with emphasis added:

"Based on the evidence presented, i.e. the above picture, that assertion is more likely than not simply incorrect. But, IF the assertion that the magnet in the above-pictured drive-unit is AlNiCo is in fact true, then what he [sic] have is a spectacularly expensive misuse of materials."



Buzzman said:



Yet you, who do not own a Phass product (and I would venture to say have never owned one given (let me put this kindly) your frugal nature),

Click to expand...

Your first assertion is true. I do not patronize firms that lack the basic technical competence to provide measurements of their products, and my assumption is always either lack of competence or basic poor performance to explain a lack of available measurements. 

My frugality, or lack thereof, is again simply out of the scope of the inquiry. Anyone who has ever studied for the LSAT should understand that. Did you break 130 on the LSAT?

Your asinine resort to personal attacks in response to a technical inquiry is quite telling of the validity of your position.

Again, here is the relevant inquiry:

*Can you find me one AlNiCo magnet driver by a known competent maker (a "high end" car-fi firm such as this "Phass" obviously does not count as a "known competent maker") that has an AlNiCo magnet so thick that it hangs over the top and bottom plates?*



Buzzman said:



have the audacity to simply look at a photograph of one of our products and in a public forum, and without ANY substantive evidence, accuse the company of fraud.

Click to expand...

Careful, "counselor." A trigger-happy lawyer may find a defamation claim in your words. 

Besides which, you are, of course, simply wrong on fact. I did no such thing. I offered two alternative hypotheses that are reasonable based on the available evidence, supra. 

Reasonable inferences drawn from past practice in the field, any competent lawyer will know, is perfectly legitimate evidence.

But it is telling that you are unable to actually answer the relevant factual inquiry. Again, it is as follows:

*Can you find me one AlNiCo magnet driver by a known competent maker (a "high end" car-fi firm such as this "Phass" obviously does not count as a "known competent maker") that has an AlNiCo magnet so thick that it hangs over the top and bottom plates?*



Buzzman said:



You show “cutaways” of other alnico magnet motor structures, but offer no such images of the Phass product as evidence that the described magnet structure is in fact not ALNiCo.

Click to expand...

To use a fancy term that competent lawyers will know but you may have to look up, what I did by posting the available evidence of prior practice with AlNiCo magnets from known competent drive-unit makers is shift the burden of proof to you. To my knowledge, Phass does not have any such images available. 

If, in fact, Phass designed their driver with a "pot" that was designed to look exactly like a conventional ceramic disk magnet with a blue edge, obviously I would be wrong in my assumptions. But the burden of proof is not on me to show that. The burden lies with the party making the exceptional claim, which is in this case you. 



Buzzman said:



(1) characterizing the images you show as products of companies you consider “known competent maker(s),”

Click to expand...

Do you seriously want to challenge my assertion that Tannoy, Altec, JBL, TAD, etc., are "known competent makers? 

That is not what I "consider" so much as broad consensus of knowledgable people. 



Buzzman said:



(2) characterizing Phass as not among those you consider “known competent maker(s),”

Click to expand...

They are not. Compared to Tannoy, JBL, TAD, and so on, they are simply not in the same league.



Buzzman said:



You then compound things by stating that if “arguendo” the magnet used in the MD 0790 is in fact ALNiCo (meaning that you were wrong in your assertion),

Click to expand...

Actually, intelligent people know that "arugendo" means "for the sake of argument." You may not know that real lawyers use "arguendo" more often than not as a stand in for, "just for ****s and giggles." 



Buzzman said:



your accusation of fraud.

Click to expand...

Again, careful with the idiotically-applied conclusory language, "counselor."



Buzzman said:



I will not engage in a debate with you regarding how ALNiCo magnets are “supposed” to look, or how other manufacturers execute an ALNiCo magnet motor structure.

Click to expand...

IOW, you are incapable of providing reasonable proof for the claims asserted. That's all anyone needs to know, "counselor."



Buzzman said:



Nor will I do research for you to produce evidence of a “known competent maker” that might execute an ALNiCo magnet motor structure similar to Phass. That too is irrelevant. (Actually, you might be wise to look at the latest ALNiCo offerings from Seas Exotics, assuming they are “known and competent” enough for you.)

Click to expand...

The Seas exotics have a thick, short magnet with markedly wider diameter than the that of the top and bottom plates? Really? That's certainly not what anyone with reasonably acute vision will see here:










For reference, here's what a Seas driver with a ferroceramic magnet looks like. You will note that the magnet slug structure is short and thick, as on the Phass driver picture you posted, and that the magnet disk clearly has a larger diameter than the top and bottom plates. There is of course one major difference: the Seas driver doesn't have a blue rim around the magnet. 












Buzzman said:



So, I will make you a simple proposition instead: You purchase a pair of the MD 0790.

Click to expand...

Ah, the "mind" of a pathetic sales-hack at work. :roll eyes:

How about, instead, something not obviously stupid. Your words indicate to a reasonable person that you are in some sort of agency relationship with Phass. (The nature of it is unknown to me, because your posts are generally not interesting enough for me to read.) So, in your capacity as an agent for Phass, you send a midbass to Patrick at Red Rock Acoustics for Klippel analysis and post the results here. 

If the driver indeed demonstrates superior linearity of motor, suspension, and inductance that justifies the high tariff I'm happy to eat crow and congratulate the firm on their achievement. 

Also, how about you ask around about how AlNiCo holds up in high power, high heat situations, and think about whether "high power and high heat" may just define the conditions a car audio midbass will face._


----------



## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

Ahh Tannoy & TAD, JBL hmmm even Altec. 
Very musical drivers, some of my fav's!!! 

Maybe that's why I Love my PHASS 3 way setup ! 

Ds-21, please remind me - when was the last time you demo'd the PHASS drivers, When ? Where ? - One More Time, Exactly Where was that. 
I thought so !!!

Science and products change, you've compared PHASS to engineering develoments some nearly 50 & 60 yrs old. God forgive humanity if he continues to manufacture products that are exact duplicates of the past. But since your level of experience with the product is just a flat flunking ZERO, I too would compare the PHASS to the TAD, Tannoy's maybe even the sweetness of that now very very elusive & expensive alnico Coral driver. But can I legitmatly compare these , Yes, visually and sonically - I do own them, Having listened to several different set ups, I think you'll be very pressed to find a more musical driver in Car Audio. 

Given your level of experience, Maybe just maybe somewhere in the forum you can go & share some of your positive results and experiences with someone who will listened to your stories and tales.

PS - I think you have a little ass on your face 



DS-21 said:


> Please think before you write next time, OK?
> 
> Different magnet types look different in ways that cannot be altered as easily as the surface color/texture of a cone can be. AlNiCo magnets used by competent drive-unit makers (e.g. Tannoy, JBL, Altec, TAD, and so on) have two traits that this Phass driver doesn't:
> 1) They are potted to provide magnetic return path, with an air gap between motor and return structure; and
> ...


----------



## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

ISTundra - Good lucking setup going ! I'm liking the looks of the system !!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

FWIW, Eric Holdaway reviewed these Phass speakers about 5 years a go in Car Audio and Electronics...there was measurements as well. He too seemed to have thought alinco motored speakers looked different than the Phass.

Opps, he reviewed the A650 set.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> (Same applies to your feckless ass-kisser, Jerry.)


Really??? Feckless??? Wow!! Someone is trying to use big words to overcompensate for their tiny penis! :loser1:

Besides, if you actually took his challenge, I believe you would be the one kissing his ass. :laugh: I simply enjoyed his response to you, that's all!


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

xxx_busa said:


> Ds-21, please remind me - when was the last time you demo'd the PHASS drivers, When ? Where ? - One More Time, Exactly Where was that.
> I thought so !!!


How the hell is whether or not I've "heard" them or not relevant to a basic factual inquiry about their magnet?

No, I've not heard them. No, I don't care to hear them. I use better parts.

But frankly if you think _any_ three way component set sounds like a Tannoy Dual Concentric, you're either listening in an anechoic chamber (because then you'd only hear the on-axis response and not the total sound power, which can be EQ'ed to be the same for both) or you're deaf.



xxx_busa said:


> Science and products change,


There seems to be damn little science, and a lot of fetishization of vintage-style parts (AlNiCo magnets, allegedly) in these speakers. Do you see any publicly-available measurements of the drive units?

Combine the general Japanese fetish for antique American stuff, and some Americans' fetish for "JDM" stuff...and you have a recipe for some very profitable ****. Even if it means that the obsolete magnets (assuming _arguendo_ that the magnet on the posted driver is in fact AlNiCo) will shortly demagnetize to uselessness due to the conditions car-fi drivers face both in terms of environment and drive level (to overcome the noise floor of a moving automobile).


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

PS: Speaking of Phass and basic technical competence, anyone want to tell me what's obviously wrong with the configuration of this Phass passive crossover:










(HINT: think about the word "orthogonal.")

The firm seems about as competent as its agent on this forum...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It might have been before DIYMA time, but npdang tested the midbasses and/or the whole A650 set back in 03 or 04...around the same time Car Audio Mag tested the set. The review isn't online it seems, but from memory, the technical testing for that particular mid wasn't stellar.

A Google search of Phass A650 brought up some old discussion from Carsound.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It couldn't be the inductor placement...




DS-21 said:


> PS: Speaking of Phass and basic technical competence, anyone want to tell me what's obviously wrong with the configuration of this Phass passive crossover:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And before someone calls me a Phass hater, the little metal dome Phass tweeter npdang let me borrow to listen to was my favorite metal dome tweeter for the last 7 or so years. I couldn't tell you a model number on it though.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

My only issue with this whole thread is how incredibly off topic it has become. You would think a mod would intervene. DS-21, make your own hate PHASS thread and have a ball, but before you leave, you may want to apologize to the OP for your rude thread jack!


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## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

DS-21 said:


> You are correct. Now, if he wished to purchase my time at my standard rate, I could offer him an engagement letter and that process could proceed.



Wow, that was the most eloquent admission of a lack of testicular fortitude I have ever seen!


Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I still would like to have a few RE2s.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> I still would like to have a few RE2s.


Same here... 

Kelvin


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Niebur3 said:


> My only issue with this whole thread is how incredibly off topic it has become.


Actually, your "issue" is more likely that you fell for a line of swill from someone playing a second-rate lawyer on the internet, and got called out for it.

That said, if the mods want to split off the relevant parts of this thread into something along with a name something like: "Does this Phass driver actually have an AlNiCo magnet?" that does seem entirely appropriate to me. 

Just because either the magnet on the driver Buzzman posted is either not AlNiCo (except maybe a fractional part mixed into a ferroceramic magnet) or is spectacularly misused AlNiCo, that doesn't mean the OP can't and shouldn't enjoy his system with these drive-units in it. As we all should know - though people who sell expensive baubles may not want us to realize - parts quality, once they reach a certain level, is not really that important. What's done with the parts (install, voicing, etc.) is the more important factor.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> I still would like to have a few RE2s.


Why? 

Their claim is, "This extraordinary Japanese amplifier sounds tonally different where other amplifiers sound the same."

Which is snake-oil speak for "we build EQ into our amps."


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## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

Show me the research, PROVE IT, Infact prove all Alnico's discharge, "All" is the key word. Your a very poor excuse for a Man, insulting and degrading someone, you've been challenged to prove something, and you run and hide then begin name calling, Your disgusting, Try showing some facts, rather than acting out with childish remarks. Man up or move along. 




DS-21 said:


> Why?
> 
> Their claim is, "This extraordinary Japanese amplifier sounds tonally different where other amplifiers sound the same."
> 
> Which is snake-oil speak for "we build EQ into our amps."


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Just to have and add to my odd ball amp collection...Marantz 750As, Monolithic A501s, and the HSS HT230 get lonely sometimes.

Plus I want to think that amp is a constant current amp rather than a constant voltage (like nearly every thing else on the market). I'd like to hear one. Though I could build a Pass F1 or F2 for much less money.

The constant current type amps are the only amps that RC said that were not included in the ye old amp challenge.

But before I dropped 5 grand on an amp, I would do something more fun like turbo my IS300 or swap a LSx motor into it, But I would rather save that money for my daughter's education fund (speaking hypothetically as if I had 5 grand laying around).



DS-21 said:


> Why?
> 
> Their claim is, "This extraordinary Japanese amplifier sounds tonally different where other amplifiers sound the same."
> 
> Which is snake-oil speak for "we build EQ into our amps."


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I'm pretty sure Alinco over time will discharge. There are numerous home guys who will tell you to have your vintage alinco drivers regaussed.

And as far as the amp sounding different, that is easy...the RE2 is a constant current amp. They work and react to speakers different than your normal constant voltage amps.



xxx_busa said:


> Show me the research, PROVE IT, Infact prove all Alnico's discharge, "All" is the key word. Your a very poor excuse for a Man, insulting and degrading someone, you've been challenged to prove something, and you run and hide then begin name calling, Your disgusting, Try showing some facts, rather than acting out with childish remarks. Man up or move along.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> Actually, your "issue" is more likely that you fell for a line of swill from someone playing a second-rate lawyer on the internet, and got called out for it.


No, actually my only "issue" is with you! 

....................../´¯/)
....................,/¯../
.................../..../
............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
.........\.................'...../
..........\.......... _.·´
............\..............(
..............\.............\....


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## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

The Key word is "ALL" - I realize what drivers from the 40's 50's & 60's, are sometimes discharged. Its in the research, 





thehatedguy said:


> I'm pretty sure Alinco over time will discharge. There are numerous home guys who will tell you to have your vintage alinco drivers regaussed.
> 
> And as far as the amp sounding different, that is easy...the RE2 is a constant current amp. They work and react to speakers different than your normal constant voltage amps.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

*General Response to DS21*

I have now had the opportunity to read your most recent posts and the numerous attacks you have made against me personally, and the Phass brand. The factual, spelling and grammatical errors contained in your diatribe, which even a cursory reading will reveal, are too numerous to list and certainly would not be the work product of a truly intelligent person. I won't bother to reprint each of your comments here and would prefer not to dignify your vituperative, fallacious remarks with any response at all because my time is much too valuable to be spent responding to irresponsible rubbish. But, I feel compelled to point out and say a few things. 

My initial response to you was triggered by your unequivocal allegation that the magnet shown in the photo I posted was not ALNiCo. Contrary to your assertion, I did not post that photo as “evidence” that the magnet shown was ALNiCo, but rather in response to the OP’s statement that he did not have a photo of the speaker prior to it being installed. I posted that photo so readers could see the speaker outside of the doors in which they had been mounted. It was you who chimed in with your unsupported allegation that the magnet shown in the photo was not ALNiCo. I issued you a challenge to prove that the magnet shown is in fact not ALNiCo. You have not accepted my challenge. I should not have been surprised by your open field running because that’s what people who hide in the weeds and hurl invectives do. They run and hide from real challenges. 

You claim that the photo I posted of the MD 0790 was the “wrong” photo of the product, and cite the photo of posted by another member of this forum. Your claim undermines you. Had you bothered to do some modicum of research (which you have a penchant for not doing before hurling charges), you would have learned the following: 1) that the photo posted by the other forum member, which you believe to be the “correct” photo, was taken from the still live website of the now defunct former U.S. distributor for Phass, and 2)that the photo shown was of the MW 4415 midbass (as shown on the label on the back side of the magnet in the photo), which has been discontinued for several years. The MW 4415AL was the 5 1/4” version of the MW 6512AL. Here they are photographed side by side:

MW 6512AL







MW 4415AL











The MW 6512AL was replaced by the MW 6512AL-N pictured here:









Hmmmm. Where else we seen a similar magnet structure? 

That you have failed to accept the challenge I issued you to prove that the Phass magnet structure is not ALNiCo speaks volumes. Your transparent efforts to shift the discussion to such things as the sonic and electrical merits of ALNiCo magnets, or Klippel analysis, or to shift the burden of proof to me, or to claim that the only issue you raised was “Can you find me one AlNiCo magnet driver by a known competent maker (a "high end" car-fi firm such as this "Phass" obviously does not count as a "known competent maker") that has an AlNiCo magnet so thick that it hangs over the top and bottom plates?” fails badly. Your post speaks for itself and you cannot run and hide from your own words. In any case, questions such as whether any other manufacturer executes an ALNiCo magnet motor structure the way Phass does is irrelevant. Audi’s Quattro system is no less a four-wheel drive system if only Audi executes it that way. In this case, all that matters is whether the magnet structure that Phass uses in the MD 0790 and its other high end speaker systems is not ALNiCo as you have claimed. But, you are not man enough to step up and take a challenge to prove an allegation you so boisterously made. Your inaction conjures up for me images from one of my favorite TV commercials years ago, where the old lady ordering a hamburger looks at the tiny piece of beef on a large bun and shouts “Where’s The Beef?” I say to you: *“Where’s The Balls?”* My original challenge remains open.

You can call me a “second rate lawyer” and hurl all the other personal invectives you wish. I have pretty tough skin and harsh words from a sniveling minion like you will never hurt me. I have accomplished much in life of which I am proud and about which I have never found the need to boast. My accomplishments speak for themselves and I don’t suffer from the insecurity that you clearly have. Oh, I could post my resume (which will leave your head spinning with envy), but this isn’t DIY Lawyers and we have already gone far afield of the original intent of this thread, so I won’t go there. I have never professed to have the engineering knowledge that many on this forum have, nor do I pretend to have such acumen. You, on the other hand, offer subjective opinions on products you have never used or personally seen, profess to know everything and clearly believe that only what you believe is correct, is correct. So, let me issue you another challenge: List for us your professional accomplishments which will show that you are professionally and intellectually equipped to question the electronics design choices made by others who have been able to rise to such a level of accomplishment that they have actually produced a commercially available product. How about sharing with us, for example, the list of electronics and speakers that you have designed, when and where they have been commercially available, the patents, if any, you have obtained, and the electronics and related science journals in which you have been published? One of two things will happen: 1) You will decline to respond directly to the challenge and instead continue to hurl invectives, or 2) We will discover that like the football fan who sits in his lounge chair on Sunday and criticizes Tom Brady’s passing, but has never thrown a football in his life, or if he did, he did so very badly, that you are nothing but a failure who feels sorry for himself and can find personal satisfaction only in criticizing the work of others that they could only dream of accomplishing. You have devoted much time on this forum to attacking brands such as Morel and Dynaudio, and last I checked they both are thriving in a market that has seen the demise of many other "known, competent" brands over the past few years. I bet some of those brands now wish you had slammed the aptitude of their designers too. :laugh:


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Niebur3 said:


> No, actually my only "issue" is with you!
> 
> ....................../´¯/)
> ....................,/¯../
> ...


lol... Never thought you could do that.  


Learn something new everyday on DIYMA :laugh: 

Kelvin


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Wow! I never expected a new gear thread to be so dramatic.


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

xxx_busa said:


> Show me the research, PROVE IT, Infact prove all Alnico's discharge, "All" is the key word.


It's a simple materials science issue. AlNiCo does not hold its charge under heat.



Buzzman said:


> *General Response to DS21*


Because you're not capable of actually responding to any of my points. Fair enough. But I am glad that you reacted appropriately to my admonition about claiming to be a lawyer and using conclusory legal language in a public forum.



Buzzman said:


> The factual, spelling and grammatical errors contained in your diatribe, which even a cursory reading will reveal, are too numerous to list and certainly would not be the work product of a truly intelligent person.


Yes, I write quickly and I don't always copy edit when writing in an informal setting. That doesn't prove what you claim.

Your retort that of the mindless functionary type who might have finished mid-to-bottom pack at a TTT law school.



Buzzman said:


> My initial response to you was triggered by your unequivocal allegation that the magnet shown in the photo I posted was not ALNiCo.


Words have meaning. That's something any competent lawyer should know. 

I was not in fact "unequivocal." Anyone with half a brain will realize I laid out [edit] four [/edit] alternative hypotheses in my two replies to you:
(1) That magnet is not AlNiCo
(2) If it is, it is incompetently used
(3) You may have posted the wrong picture, and been too inept to realize it.
[edit](4) What to the naked eye looks just like a conventional ferroceramic magnet with a blue rim is in fact the pot structure for the internal AlNiCo magnet.[/edit]

Please in the future refrain from using words unless you actually know what they mean, OK?



Buzzman said:


> Contrary to your assertion, I did not post that photo as “evidence” that the magnet shown was ALNiCo, but rather in response to the OP’s statement that he did not have a photo of the speaker prior to it being installed.


True or false: the picture you posted is one you claim to be of a Phass drive-unit with an AlNiCo magnet. 



Buzzman said:


> I issued you a challenge to prove that the magnet shown is in fact not ALNiCo. You have not accepted my challenge.


Your "challenge" consisted of attempted to goad me buying some stupid piece of **** from you. Big effin deal.

All your challenge (and my response) proves is that you're a crappy salesman, and I don't fall for stupid lines from crappy sales-hacks.



Buzzman said:


> I should not have been surprised by your open field running because that’s what people who hide in the weeds and hurl invectives do. They run and hide from real challenges.


So, then you will be sending an example of this drive unit to Patrick at Red Rock Acoustics for a Klippel measurement, with instructions for him to post the data here no matter what the result?



Buzzman said:


> You claim that the photo I posted of the MD 0790 was the “wrong” photo of the product, and cite the photo of posted by another member of this forum.


Please learn to read at an adult level. Here's what I actually wrote:

"In fairness, I don't know if if _you_ simply posted the wrong picture and are simply too inept to know it. (Your picture, it has been noted by someone else, differs from the one on the Phass website.)"

That is NOT to anyone who can read English at a reasonably proficient level a claim that you did something, but rather conjecture about what _might_ have happened. "I don't know if..." is kind of an important phrase, no? 

I don't expect you to be smart enough to understand the distinction (perhaps you can have Jerry teach you the finer points of ASCII art while you ponder it) but I want to make sure other readers understand that you are showing yourself to be incapable of comprehending simple written English.



Buzzman said:


> Your claim undermines you. Had you bothered to do some modicum of research (which you have a penchant for not doing before hurling charges), you would have learned the following: 1) that the photo posted by the other forum member, which you believe to be the “correct” photo, was taken from the still live website of the now defunct former U.S. distributor for Phass,


You're not smart enough to try to put thoughts in my head. 

And "some modicum," seriously? Quit reaching for the thesaurus. To paraphrase, some means, in this context, "a little bit," and modicum means, well, "a little bit" So in trying to sound smarter than you are, you only added redundancy.

At any rate, I made no claim as to which picture is correct. I merely noted that they were different. (And I would make the same points about both pictured motor structures, for the record.)

And I don't, nor do I have any reason to, care what the history of that website is.



Buzzman said:


> and 2)that the photo shown was of the MW 4415 midbass


Wake me up when you write something relevant. 



Buzzman said:


> Your post speaks for itself and you cannot run and hide from your own words.


Well, we agree on something. Of course, you understand that I am not running and hiding from anything. I stand by everything I've written.



Buzzman said:


> Audi’s Quattro system is no less a four-wheel drive system if only Audi executes it that way.


I'm going to revise my estimate of your LSAT score from 130ish to 120ish. Why? Yet another scope shift.

A trademarked all-wheel-drive _system_ is of course out of the scope of a _materials choice._ 

Now, if you had said that an Audi engine that claims to have an aluminum block can sometimes be in fact iron, that would be within the scope of this discussion.



Buzzman said:


> Oh, I could post my resume (which will leave your head spinning with envy),


Judging by the quality of thought you present here, highly doubtful. You write like somebody who did poorly at a TTT law school, realized he could never hack it as a practicing attorney, so reasonably decided that hawking snake oil was the best bet to stay fed.



Buzzman said:


> You, on the other hand, offer subjective opinions on products you have never used or personally seen, profess to know everything and clearly believe that only what you believe is correct, is correct.


I make reasonable inferences based on available data.

When relevant data is unavailable, a reasonable inference is that the firm in question is either too incompetent to take it, or is embarrassed by what it would show.



Buzzman said:


> In this case, all that matters is whether the magnet structure that Phass uses in the MD 0790 and its other high end speaker systems is not ALNiCo as you have claimed.


Actually, _for the who-can-count-how-bloody-many-th time,_ that was not my claim. My claim was as follows:

"I'm simply challenging a factual assertion that the above-pictured driver has an AlNiCo magnet. Based on the evidence presented, i.e. the above picture, that assertion is more likely than not simply incorrect. But, IF the assertion that the magnet in the above-pictured drive-unit is AlNiCo is in fact true, then what he have is a spectacularly expensive misuse of materials."

So, to sum up, *Can you find me one AlNiCo magnet driver by a known competent maker (a "high end" car-fi firm such as this "Phass" obviously does not count as a "known competent maker") that has an AlNiCo magnet so thick that it hangs over the top and bottom plates?*


----------



## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> It might have been before DIYMA time, but npdang tested the midbasses and/or the whole A650 set back in 03 or 04...around the same time Car Audio Mag tested the set. The review isn't online it seems, but from memory, the technical testing for that particular mid wasn't stellar.
> 
> A Google search of Phass A650 brought up some old discussion from Carsound.


It might not have been stellar in technical tests but it doesn't say anything about how it sounds. 

If I had more money than I knew what to do with, I would buy replacement drivers for all of my favorite home speakers and send them to Red Rock for testing. 

It wouldn't surprise me if they didn't test the best for whatever reason, despite being significantly more efficient than Scan Speak Revelator or Seas Excel drivers, not to mention IMHO, more tonally accurate. 

I've seen this with amplifiers, so I'm extrapolating to speakers.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

True. The subjective reviews were pretty great from what I remember.

Like I said that little metal dome tweeter from the lower line sounded great to me.


----------



## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

Buzzman said:


> You have devoted much time on this forum to attacking brands such as Morel and Dynaudio, and last I checked they both are thriving in a market that has seen the demise of many other "known, competent" brands over the past few years. I bet some of those brands now wish you had slammed the aptitude of their designers too. :laugh:


What did he say about Morel and Dynaudio?

I'm actually inclined to agree with DS-21 for a change, lol.

My personal opinion on them is that they are good but overrated/overpriced. This extends to the home lines as well.

I'm sure their Engineers are good, but someone has taken their voicing in a direction I don't particularly like, at least for their flagship lines.

Also, the 3" voice coil has to go.

Curious which brands have disappeared?


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

FG79 said:


> It might not have been stellar in technical tests but it doesn't say anything about how it sounds.


That's just silly. The kind of postmodernist nonsense that only leads one into a ditch larded with snake oil.

The fact of the matter is, if a driver has a clean motor, linear suspension, and good control of resonances, it can sound however a competent tuner wants it to. 

If a driver is deficient in an area, by contrast, it is limited by those deficiencies.



FG79 said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if they didn't test the best for whatever reason, despite being significantly more efficient than Scan Speak Revelator or Seas Excel drivers, not to mention IMHO, more tonally accurate.


Measured performance would depend on what those drivers are. Keep in mind the Scans aren't that different motor-wise from a 1970s JBL Pro speaker, but they have a lot less cone area. (The cones are, obviously, different.)

FWIW, from reading "Voice Coil" for a few years, my general impression is that the driver line that consistently offers the highest performance right now based on Klippel measurements are the "pro" drivers by B&C. And, to be sure, none of the B&C drivers I've used personally have disappointed in any way.

Considering that in an earlier post you mentioned liking Tannoy, JBL, and Altec stuff, there's another factor that will likely lead to a _system_ sounding better than the typical Rev/Excel based system: narrower and perhaps more constant midrange directivity. A flush-mounted dome tweeter with a ≥5" mid invariably sounds spitty to me, both in sighted and blind conditions. And there is a measurement correlating to my perception: in the crossover region, such a speaker has a balloon of energy due to the differing directivities of the mid and tweeter. 



FG79 said:


> I've seen this with amplifiers, so I'm extrapolating to speakers.


That's a bad idea, probably based on sighted listening with mismatched levels. 

Consider that an amplifier just takes an input electrical wave and outputs a bigger electrical wave. It is a simple, well-understood, easily-measured process. The amplifier is the simplest, "dumbest" piece in any audio system. 

However, a loudspeaker converts an electrical signal into cognizable sound through mechanical processes, which is quite obviously a different and far more complicated undertaking. 
While at this point thanks to Klippel and others drive-units are pretty decently understood, the understanding of drive-units is not nearly as advanced as the understanding of the simple process of adding gain to an electrical signal. Also, the process of measuring a loudspeaker is considerably more complex than the process of measuring a gain block. That may probably the reason why less-competent "high end" firms tend not to provide useful measurements of their products.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> That's just silly. The kind of postmodernist nonsense that only leads one into a ditch larded with snake oil.
> 
> The fact of the matter is, if a driver has a clean motor, linear suspension, and good control of resonances, it can sound however a competent tuner wants it to.
> 
> ...


DS, two questions for you:

Where do you live?
How many home/pro systems have you actually heard?

Just trying to get an idea how many systems you've listened to in relation to how much studying you've done. Clearly you've done a lot of reading and studying on the topic which is nice, but it has to be matched or exceeded by how much listening you've done.

My friend with the high end store...most of his employees over the years know about 1/10th the theory I do (and probably 1/30th the theory you do), yet they have better trained ears and can tune better. The owner himself is on another level even. 

They understand fundamentals about sound reproduction but nothing with what I see here. 

What I'm driving at is the #1 asset to an audiophile/audio enthusiast is listening experience. The #2 asset, whatever it is, is a distant second. If we get caught up in just learning about something and never experiencing it, we will not only be shortchanging our learning, but also will RESIST being open to new ideas and things that *seem* worse.

I'd like to provide you with some listening experience if you're ever in Washington DC or Charleston, SC. Let me know.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

FG79 said:


> Where do you live?


Irrelevant.



FG79 said:


> How many home/pro systems have you actually heard?


Your premise is simply-speaking all wet. I'm not exactly an inexperienced listener. Which is why the snake oil ******** bothers me probably more than it bothers most people. 

I've been listening to "high end" systems (and discovering things with my own ears such as the fact that a $60 Samsung DVD player is indistinguishable a $4000 Meridian 508.20 factory upgraded to 508.24 spec when levels are matched and one doesn't know which is playing, and an Adcom GFA-5800 is indistinguishable under the same conditions from an equivalent-power Classe amp even when driving speakers with wicked impedance curves such as Martin-Logan reQuests) since about 1994. 

Because I've actively sought out listening experience, except for the Danley Synergy/Unity horn there's basically no type of loudspeaker I haven't heard, from 

the best of conventional cone-domes (Revel Ultima, KEF Reference), to
point-source dipoles (Audio Artistry Dvorak, recently Linkwitz Orion 4), to
exotic hybrid cardoid/dipoles (Gradient Revolution), to 
point-source electrostats (Quad ESL-63, supported by Gradient dipole subs), to
quasi-line-source electrostats (Martin-Logan, Sound Lab, Final), to
dynamic line sources (Selah Audio), to
Planar line sources (Eminent Tech, Apogee, recently Maggie), to
exotic omnis (mbl), to
horns with plasma-ion tweeters (Acapella), to
Dual Concentric type speakers (Tannoy, DIY with B&C drivers, DIY with Altec 605)
constant directivity waveguide-based systems (from my memory the best I've heard, using BMS dual-concentric compression drivers on giant 90x40 horns, with 15" Beyma woofers, and a giant 55cm Cabasse woofer I-B for sub-bass.)
generally crappy speakers that to my ear are praised more because they're expensive than good-sounding (several different Wilsons, Sonus Fabers, B&W Nautilus series, Shahinian Arc, etc. I also have to add the Tannoy TD12 here, unfortunately; the super tweeter ruins what's so great about the Dual Concentric to my ears.)

(Of those my favorites are the BMS/Beyma/Cabasse system, big Revels, big KEF References, big Tannoys, Gradient Revolution, and ESL63+Gradient subs. The Acapella Violon 2000 with a competently-tuned bass section would likely also be up there, but the generation I heard had a ported cab that was tuned too high. My least favorite are the big mbl's.)

That's probably why I find the snake oil ******** you're trying to be an apologist for right now especially odious. 

For the record, my home reference system, which I've assembled piece-by-piece since about 2005, is as follows:

Mains (LCR): Tannoy System 12 DMT II (12" Dual Concentric, ~96dB/W/m) in bespoke minimal-diffraction sealed cabinets built for me by Nathan Funk, each with ~130W based on third-party measurements of the gear I'm using.

Surrounds: 8" Tannoy Dual Concentrics, with ~130W each.

Multisub setup: 
M-Design Eleganza Godfather (Aurasound NS15-992-4A + 1kW amp), 
2x M-Design Eleganza Bella (Aurasound NS12-794-4A + 500W amp)
DIY 15L closed box with Aurasound NS10-794-4A powered by a 300W amp above the room centerline.

Processing: Audyssey MultEQ XT, dedicated DSP for the multisubs.

No offense, but there's frankly nothing you can have me listen to, unless you have access to Gedlee Summas or something like that with a top-tier multisub system underneath them, that is even going to _approach_ what I'm used to. Certainly, few "high end" stores will be able to match it at any price, because they don't have loudspeakers that are good enough for me.


----------



## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

Ive always found people who still own adcom amps like to compare and state there amp sounds just like Classe & better yet Plinius, Being a current owner of Adcom & Plinius, NO THEY DON'T!, NOT AT ALL. PERIOD


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

xxx_busa said:


> Ive always found people who still own adcom amps like to compare and state there amp sounds just like Class & better yet Plinius, Being a current owner of Adcom & Plinius, NO THEY DON'T!, NOT AT ALL. PERIOD


Have you listened under controlled conditions, or are you just blowing smoke based on sighted listening with unmatched levels?

That's what I thought.

By contrast, I've actually done the blind, level-matched comparison between a contemporary Adcom (GFA-5800) and Classe (CA-something. 300 maybe? It was big and silver with rack ears and "Classe" burned into the front-plate in a gaudy manner.). On Martin-Logans, which because of their tricky impedance curve are some of the best speakers to illuminate such differences. On my big Tannoys, with their high sensitivity and easy-to-drive impedance curve, neither amp would sound different from a 20W/ch. chipamp, unless the higher-sensitivity speakers revealed noise issues in one of the amps that would not be apparent with less sensitive speakers.

As for Plinius, I only recall one experience. I've heard two systems in the same room with Plinius preamp and amp, along with a similarly overpriced CD player from PS Audio. Before I helped my friend improve his system, he was using these absolutely horrible loudspeakers (Shahinian Arc). He had spent a fortune (this is in Berlin, so add the 16-odd % German VAT to what people pay in the US and then some!) but despite changing boxes and wires was never really happy with his system. I suggested the problem is probably the loudspeakers, which I knew from first listen sucked. Eventually we found a dealer who had Gradient Revolutions. Obviously, the dealer, being a typical sales-hack, told my friend that he needed not only the new speakers, but that they wouldn't have good "synergy" with his current electronics, though it may be better with some "anti-vibration" gizmo and new wires. But eventually he managed to get out with the speakers, and some "anti-vibration" snake oil thing. The system instantly went from horrible to excellent by simply going from crappy loudspeakers to excellent ones. And fixing the actual problem rather than going on a roller coaster of stupidity transformed my friend's audio buying habits. After having gone through a hamster wheel of trading out different electronics and even stupid stuff like wires, his system hadn't changed at all from ca. 1999 to last February when I last talked to him. Not one wire. (That's probably why sales-hacks are so terrified of actual good loudspeakers: they lead to customers who lose the urge to swap out new **** and instead just - gasp! - enjoy the music!) And the Shahinian Arcs are doing all they're capable of doing: providing background music in his restaurant.

So my experience with Plinius gear is that it's likely fine, and if there is a problem making it sound different from another amp then the likely cause is simple user incompetence.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> Irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting list....definitely off the beaten path which I respect, and knocking Wilsons and B&W Nautilus is thumbs up in my book. As for electrostats, Quad is good yes....Martin Logan....hmm.

Before you say you've heard everything you need to listen to Audio Note, SAP, and Western Electric on the speaker end....amps as well. That's the stuff I get turned on by, not Dynaudio, Wilson, Focal, B&W, and whatever else sells big $$$ ads in Stereophile and The Absolute Sound. Don't accuse me of pushing those yuppy LA/Miami show off brands, homey. 

To me, those are amongst the top 5. I promise you one of the best high end stores you'll ever find is in the Washington DC area. Your knocking of certain brands makes me believe you would like their stuff. 

While I believe you've heard good speakers, I get a strong hunch you haven't heard grade A amps. How do I know this?

Because no level matching of average amps will make them sound like a good Audio Note, SAP, or Western Electric amplifier. I've heard these amps in action and believe me if YOU can make most amplifiers sound like these, you could be a very rich man. I know quite a few well off guys who drop $10k-100k+ on this gear, so the DS-21 tuned amp at $1000 would be a sweet deal to anyone. 

This "amps that are level matched sound the same" s*** I will not buy in a trillion years. 

It's ok to be skeptical. A $1000 Jolida or $1700 Synthesis Ensemble amp sounds superior to an $80k Krell amp. If an amp the price of a 911 can sound like s***, I wouldn't blame someone for thinking amps are useless. 

As you know, there is a lot of expensive gear in home and car audio that gets taken down by cheaper stuff, no surprise there. Do know that investment in the right brands will pay dividends. 

And for the millionth time I will say this in front of a million people:

Amps are more important than speakers.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

FG79 said:


> As for electrostats, Quad is good yes....Martin Logan....hmm.


I agree with that. A couple years ago I heard a pair of M-L reQuests that when I was younger were used for a lot of blind tests...and let's just say the reality didn't hold up to the memory. BUT, they're still a good speaker to use for amplifier comparisons, simply because they present a much more demanding load for most, both in terms of impedance minima and impedance variation.



FG79 said:


> Before you say you've heard everything you need to listen to Audio Note, SAP, and Western Electric on the speaker end....amps as well.


What makes you think that I haven't? 

I've heard plenty of SET garbage. I prefer to listen to music, not audio gear.

(I've also heard Audio Note's tarted up obsolete Snell speakers.)



FG79 said:


> To me, those are amongst the top 5. I promise you one of the best high end stores you'll ever find is in the Washington DC area.


Which one? Chances are I've been there. I used to live in Glover Park, a block away from the Whole Foods and easy walking distance to Everard's Clothing/Sky Shoes/Field's Custom Tailoring. 

(And if you're talking about Deja Vu, I have a funny story about them...)



FG79 said:


> Because no level matching of average amps will make them sound like a good Audio Note, SAP, or Western Electric amplifier.


I agree that one cannot level match an amp designed to simply amplify the input signal and an amp that also messes up the input signal. One needs level matching as well as EQ to compensate for the ****ty FR of the obsolete amp, and possibly some added distortion components as well.



FG79 said:


> This "amps that are level matched sound the same" s*** I will not buy in a trillion years.


The assumption there is that both amps are designed for accuracy. When you have an amp that is basically low-fidelity, i.e. its output is not the input signal with gain, that assumption is invalid.



FG79 said:


> And for the millionth time I will say this in front of a million people:
> 
> Amps are more important than speakers.


No offense, but one simply cannot have functional hearing and any critical listening skills worth noting and believe that.


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## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

The Dude is just flapping his lips, He may have a $60 DVD player and an ADCOM, But my guess is, He is confined to his quarters, unable to get around maybe a quad.or confined to a ward with limited internet access. He may have listened to few speakers here and there and read plenty, But surely has no true experience in getting to know his ultra expensive gear. My system now would cook his mind, Gedlee does decent DIY projects, but its not the cream. It just another DIYER sharing his knowledge for those whom can't afford to play with the BIG KIDS !



FG79 said:


> Interesting list....definitely off the beaten path which I respect, and knocking Wilsons and B&W Nautilus is thumbs up in my book. As for electrostats, Quad is good yes....Martin Logan....hmm.
> 
> Before you say you've heard everything you need to listen to Audio Note, SAP, and Western Electric on the speaker end....amps as well. That's the stuff I get turned on by, not Dynaudio, Wilson, Focal, B&W, and whatever else sells big $$$ ads in Stereophile and The Absolute Sound. Don't accuse me of pushing those yuppy LA/Miami show off brands, homey.
> 
> ...


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The statement about Geddes is pure ******** plain and simple.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> I agree with that. A couple years ago I heard a pair of M-L reQuests that when I was younger were used for a lot of blind tests...and let's just say the reality didn't hold up to the memory. BUT, they're still a good speaker to use for amplifier comparisons, simply because they present a much more demanding load for most, both in terms of impedance minima and impedance variation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Again, I stand by everything I've said, experienced, purchased, etc. 

I'll hit ya up on PM, DS.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

xxx_busa said:


> The Dude is just flapping his lips, He may have a $60 DVD player and an ADCOM,


Actually, I current run neither. That Samsung SACD/DVD-A/DVD player died and was replaced with a variant of Lexicon's $3000 SACD/DVD-A/Blu-Ray player in a different case. 

[edit]for those who don't get the joke, I mean an Oppo BDP-83 - Lexicon busted passing Oppo off as a $3500 Blu-ray player
 [/edit]



xxx_busa said:


> Gedlee does decent DIY projects, but its nots the cream. It just another DIYER sharing his knowledge for those whom can't afford to play with the BIG KIDS !


Yeah, someone with who _wrote his Ph.D. thesis on small room acoustics_ and has more audio papers and patents than most people have ever even _read_ is sooooo much less competent in the field than some schmuck who writes about overpriced car-fi crap on the internet...


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

FG79 said:


> DS, two questions for you:
> 
> Where do you live?


43516 Scenic Lane, 
Northville, MI, 48167, 
(248) 305-9328
Contact: [email protected]


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

That's not where he lives. If you guys knew more about his background and some of the things he has participated in, you would begin to understand where he is coming from. I enjoy reading his posts on the various forums where he sometimes goes by a different screen name.


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## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

TUBES RULE !!! Long Live SET !!! 2A3 & 300B !!! TUBES RULE !!! 

Everyone knows That...................

Speaking of Patents, Does this make MACHINA DYNAMICA the best. Only becuase He's inteligent, or bybee quantum purifiers snake oil.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

snaimpally said:


> 43516 Scenic Lane,
> Northville, MI, 48167,
> (248) 305-9328
> Contact: [email protected]


LOL! I hope you're not serious.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> The statement about Geddes is pure ******** plain and simple.


Agreed.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I love tubes as much or more than anyone else...

But what patents do MD hold? Or Jack Bybee?




xxx_busa said:


> TUBES RULE !!! Long Live SET !!! 2A3 & 300B !!! TUBES RULE !!!
> 
> Everyone knows That...................
> 
> Speaking of Patents, Does this make MACHINA DYNAMICA the best. Only becuase He's inteligent, or bybee quantum purifiers snake oil.


----------



## rockytophigh (Apr 16, 2008)

I'm not reading through all that BS. Is bitchy/whiny guy going to take the butt kiss challenge or not? The gauntlet is down....time to shut up or man up. Someone loan him the $$$ to see if he can prove lawyer guy wrong!

Subscribed.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> LOL! I hope you're not serious.


I know, right?

It's certainly flattering to me, though. Unduly so.



rockytophigh said:


> I'm not reading through all that BS. Is bitchy/whiny guy going to take the butt kiss challenge or not? The gauntlet is down....time to shut up or man up. Someone loan him the $$$ to see if he can prove lawyer guy wrong!


You clearly read through the BS-laden portions of the thread, if you know about some "butt-kiss challenge."

However, the firm's second-rate "lawyer" (he does _not_ appear in Martindale-Hubble, FWIW) agent is clearly _afraid_ to send his precious plastic basket thing to Patrick at Red Rock Acoustics, an actual expert, for Klippel analysis...


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## dman (Dec 21, 2008)

Vintage DS


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

FWIW, the "bitchy/whiny" guy is too a lawyer.



rockytophigh said:


> I'm not reading through all that BS. Is bitchy/whiny guy going to take the butt kiss challenge or not? The gauntlet is down....time to shut up or man up. Someone loan him the $$$ to see if he can prove lawyer guy wrong!
> 
> Subscribed.


----------



## rockytophigh (Apr 16, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> FWIW, the "bitchy/whiny" guy is too a lawyer.


we are all screwed lol. Hey, at least it's a break from the norm. I still want to see how this plays out. We've got two, intelligent guys, who are outspoken and one of them is wrong. 

Cage match?


----------



## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

rockytophigh said:


> we are all screwed lol. Hey, at least it's a break from the norm. I still want to see how this plays out. We've got two, intelligent guys, who are outspoken and one of them is wrong.
> 
> Cage match?


:laugh: I am in! But, seriously, do you really think DS21 is capable of engaging in any type of masculine endeavor? And, I would have to drop down to the “featherweight” class and it still won’t be a fair match. 



thehatedguy said:


> FWIW, the "bitchy/whiny" guy is too a lawyer.


:laugh: I suspected as much, and I am certain that if he ever actually practiced law at a firm whenever the clients showed up he was sent to the library to do research so as not to embarrass the firm given his obvious personality deficiencies. 



DS-21 said:


> . . . You clearly read through the BS-laden portions of the thread, if you know about some "butt-kiss challenge."
> 
> However, the firm's second-rate "lawyer" (he does _not_ appear in Martindale-Hubble, FWIW) agent is clearly _afraid_ to send his precious plastic basket thing to Patrick at Red Rock Acoustics, an actual expert, for Klippel analysis...


Haven’t you learned by now that acting like a d_ _k won’t help you grow one? And, it’s about time you remove your head from your ass because the sphincter action is causing you to have too many delusions of grandeur. You are a supposed lawyer and you cannot even spell Martindale-Hubbell correctly. Oh, wait, I forgot, you don’t check your spelling when you make posts like this. But, the spelling you chose is quite illuminating. Was it a Freudian slip which affirms that you really do spend too much time looking into space through your telescope instead of experiencing real life here on Earth? And, as a lawyer you should know that listings in Martindale-Hubbell are placed by the attorneys listed. I have never chosen to have my name listed. Since it appears you have taken the initiative to do research about me, I must assume you know or believe you know my real name, and the State Bar of which I am a member. However, given the numerous incorrect facts upon which you have relied in this thread, let me make it easy for you: Don E. N. Gibson, State of California. Do a Google search for my name also, and include terms such as sports, baseball and basketball. Now you can find out how “second-rate” I am.  How about sharing with us your supposedly first class credentials? But, then again, a “first-rate” lawyer would not make the following assertion:



DS-21 said:


> A trademarked all-wheel-drive _system_ is of course out of the scope of a _materials choice._


Wow, you think you are so good you are rewriting trademark law. The all-wheel drive system is not subject to trademark protection. The *name *of the system (“Quattro”) is, but the system itself is subject to Patent law. 

You obviously recognize that your statements about the authenticity (or lack thereof) of Phass’ ALNiCo magnet representation are false, so you continue to try and shift the discussion to Klippel analysis. You really do think that the other members of this forum are so stupid that they can’t see past your transparent efforts to duck and hide from the central issue you raised. I have no need to send the speakers to Patrick at Red Rock for testing. Phass conducts its own research, testing and development, and I am extremely satisfied with the finished product. Of course, you are more than welcome to purchase the speakers and test them to your heart’s delight. But, of course, you won’t purchase them, and we all know why. 










One thing is certain: if you let a fool act like a fool long enough, everyone will realize he is a fool. For example:



DS-21 said:


> It's a simple materials science issue. AlNiCo does not hold its charge under heat.


What science have you been studying? If your statement were true, then none of Phass’ speakers that use an ALNiCo magnet structure would be functional. The blue color on the surface of the ring portion of the magnet is a powder coating applied to prevent the magnet from rusting. It is applied at a temperature of 220 degrees Celsius/428 degrees Farenheit. That sounds like high heat to me. But, since I am sure you will consider my statement not credible, here is other evidence to debunk your statement:

From www.coolmagnetman.com/magtypes.htm:

“Materials used for permanent magnets
There are four classes of permanent magnets:
Neodymium Iron Boron (NdFeB or NIB)
Samarium Cobalt (SmCo)
Alnico
Ceramic or Ferrite
This table gives us some of the special characteristics of the four classes of magnets. 

Br is the measure of its residual magnetic flux density in Gauss, which is the maximum flux the magnet is able to produce. ( 1Gauss is like 6.45 lines/sq in)
Hc is the measure of the coercive magnetic field strength in Oersted, or the point at which the magnet becomes demagnetized by an external field. ( 1Oersted is like 2.02 ampere-turns/inch)

BHmax is a term of overall energy density. The higher the number, the more powerful the magnet.

Tcoef of Br is the temperature coefficient of Br in terms of % per degree Centigrade. This tells you how the magnetic flux changes with respect to temperature. -0.20 means that if the temperature increases by 100 degrees Centigrade, its magnetic flux will decrease by 20%!

Tmax is the maximum temperature the magnet should be operated at. After the temperature drops below this value, it will still behave as it did before it reached that temperature (it is recoverable). (degrees Centigrade)

Tcurie is the Curie temperature at which the magnet will become demagnetized. After the temperature drops below this value, it will not behave as it did before it reached that temperature. If the magnet is heated between Tmax and Tcurie, it will recover somewhat, but not fully (it is not recoverable). (degrees Centigrade)

(please note that this data is from Welcome to Magnet Sales&Manufacturing's Digital Resource!)

Material____________Br________	Hc________BHmax________Tcoef of Br________Tmax________Tcurie
NdFeB____________12,800_____12,300________40____________-0.12__________150__________310
SmCo_____________10,500_____9,200________26_____________-0.04__________300__________750
Alnico_____________12,500_____640_________5.5_____________-0.02__________540__________860
Ceramic or Ferrite____3,900_____3,200________3.5_____________-0.20__________300__________460

Both the Neodymium Iron Boron and the Samarium Cobalt magnets are generally known as rare earth magnets since their compounds come from the rare earth or Lanthanide series of the periodic table of the elements. They were developed in the 1970's and 1980's. As can be seen in the table, these are the strongest of the permanent magnets, and are difficult to demagnetize. However, the Tmax for NdFeB is the lowest.

*Alnico is made of a compound of aluminum, nickel and cobalt.* Alnico magnets were first developed in the 1940's. *As can be seen in the table, this magnet is least affected by temperature*, but is easily demagnetized. This is the reason why bar magnets and horseshoe magnets made of alnico will easily become demagnetized by other magnets, by dropping it, and by not storing it with a keeper. *Its Tmax, though, is the highest.*

*Ceramic or Ferrite magnets are the most popular types of magnets available today. * The flexible magnets we use are a type of ceramic magnet, with the magnetic powders fixed in a flexible binder. These were first developed in the 1960's. This is a fairly strong magnet, not as easy to demagnetize as alnico, *but its magnetic strength will vary the most as its temperature changes*.” (Emphases Added.)

From Welcome to Magnet Sales&Manufacturing's Digital Resource!

“*Excellent temperature stability,* high residual induction, and relatively high energies *characterize Alnico materials,* composed primarily of alloys of Aluminum, Nickel, and Cobalt.” (Emphasis Added)

This whole thread deteriorated when you asserted as fact, that the magnet shown in a photo of the Phass MD 0790 I posted, was not ALNiCo. I challenged you to prove that assertion, and you have refused to do so. You now claim that your assertion “was not in fact ‘unequivocal’" and that you “laid out four alternative hypotheses in [your] two replies to [me]:

(1)	That magnet is not AlNiCo. 

[What can be more unequivocal than that?]

(2)	If it is, it is incompetently used. 

[Your attempt to qualify your prior statement, after it has been made, does not make it unequivocal. Notably, you also do not provide any facts to support your conclusions about incompetent use of the ALNiCo magnet. But since you do not even understand the properties of such a magnet (I would be shocked if you have ever even seen an ALNiCo magnet) as evidenced by your false statement about the magnet’s ability to withstand heat, how can you even opine on what would be a “competent” use of the magnet? In any case, Phass uses a magnet structure wherein the ALNiCo magnet is outside the voice coil. The reason for this is because given the relatively small size of the voice coil used in the Phass speakers (as compared to the large diameter (e.g., 15”), home/studio monitor speakers you previously cited), it is not possible to insert a magnet inside the coil that is large enough and sufficiently powerful to drive the cone assembly unless the magnet was quite long. This would make mounting of the speaker in a car door not possible or quite a challenge. By employing a wider, thinner ALNiCo magnet outside the voice coil, rather than a long, thin magnet inside the voice coil, Phass is able to build a speaker that can be utilized for its intended purpose – automobile installation. Also, Phass determined that having the magnet hang over the top and bottom plate helps the magnet hold its power.]

(3)	You may have posted the wrong picture, and been too inept to realize it. 

[As I have already shown, it was you who were too inept to realize that the picture posted by me was in fact one of the speaker model in question because you were so enthused to slam the product you never bothered to check the details of the photo posted by the other forum member upon which you relied.]

[edit](4) What to the naked eye looks just like a conventional ferroceramic magnet with a blue rim is in fact the pot structure for the internal AlNiCo magnet.[/edit] 

[I think you need better eyeglasses. Or, perhaps, you should learn how to ask about things you do not know. All of this caustic discourse could have been avoided if you had the ability to show some humility.] 



thehatedguy said:


> . . . If you guys knew more about his background and some of the things he has participated in, you would begin to understand where he is coming from. . . .


Well, I have asked him to provide that substantiation, and he ducked that challenge too. I know where he is coming from. It’s the path he chooses to get to his destination that bothers me. We all benefit when we have intelligent, enlightening, discourse. There is no need to belittle and attack people, and one should not make unsubstantiated allegations that are represented as fact. I admit that in this thread I ended up committing the same acts that I deplore. But, this was in response to gross disrespect, which I will not tolerate.


----------



## dman (Dec 21, 2008)

:lurk:


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Very unbecoming public behavior from an agent for an allegedly "high end" product, I must say.



Buzzman said:


> However, given the numerous incorrect facts upon which you have relied in this thread, let me make it easy for you: Don E. N. Gibson, State of California.


Without needlessly divulging your personal information, I will say that your background is far more blue chip than your sloppy reasoning in this thread would indicate. 

The question then becomes, what's worse, a lawyer from quite a good law school (who should take that donation, in my view) whose written work product (and since you're shilling for a firm for which you are apparently an agent on this thread, "work product" is the correct term) displays the kind of reasoning one would expect from a TTT law school graduate, or someone actually from a TTT school?



Buzzman said:


> Wow, you think you are so good you are rewriting trademark law. The all-wheel drive system is not subject to trademark protection. The *name *of the system (“Quattro”) is, but the system itself is subject to Patent law.


Your post to which I replied referred to "quattro," which was the trademarked term in question.

And in fact _several_ different systems have been used under the trademark "quattro," including the original Audi system and also systems designed by Haldex and others. 

Are you claiming, then, that just as Audi uses "quattro" to refer to several different types of 4 wheel drive systems on Audi cars, "AlNiCo" is being here used as a trademarked term and not to refer to a magnetic material?



Buzzman said:


> You obviously recognize that your statements about the authenticity (or lack thereof) of Phass’ ALNiCo magnet representation are false,


I stand by my statements. They are not false, but reasonable inferences based on the evidence you have provided here.



Buzzman said:


> so you continue to try and shift the discussion to Klippel analysis.


Which you're afraid of. Ultimately, whether the drivers use some fetish-object magnet material or not is irrelevant. (Though for the record I believe that if the driver you posted does indeed have an AlNiCo magnet, it makes poor use of the material.) What matters is the performance. 



Buzzman said:


> What science have you been studying? If your statement were true, then none of Phass’ speakers that use an ALNiCo magnet structure would be functional.


You're going beyond the scope of what I wrote.

But am I to infer from your post that you are denying that AlNiCo demagnetizes under high drive levels? (Not completely, perhaps, but partially and continuously, thus leading to permanent changes in the driver's motor force and thus fundamentally changing the performance of the speaker in question compared to its factory state?)



Buzzman said:


> From www.coolmagnetman.com/magtypes.htm:
> *Alnico is made of a compound of aluminum, nickel and cobalt.* Alnico magnets were first developed in the 1940's. *As can be seen in the table, this magnet is least affected by temperature*, but is easily demagnetized. This is the reason why bar magnets and horseshoe magnets made of alnico will easily become demagnetized by other magnets, by dropping it, and by not storing it with a keeper. *Its Tmax, though, is the highest.*


Hmm, AlNiCo will "easily become demagnetized *by other magnets* and [vibration, etc.]." (emph. added)

Let me ask you something: what does one call a coil of wire, wrapped around a permeable core, and fed (AC or DC) electricity from an external source
? 
This page may help you answer that question: HowStuffWorks "How Electromagnets Work"

How is that relevant here? Another website that may help you out: HowStuffWorks "How Speakers Work,"

Note that my claims were about demagnetization due to _drive level,_ though I did err in mislabeling the most important factor as heat rather than magnetic force. (IOW, I was wrong about the _source_ of the problem, but not the _effect_ nor its _relevance here._)

Also, your own source notes that AlNiCo magnets are quite fragile. Perhaps, then, not the smartest thing to use in a moving car...



Buzzman said:


> You now claim that your assertion “was not in fact ‘unequivocal’" and that you “laid out four alternative hypotheses in [your] two replies to [me]:
> 
> (1)	That magnet is not AlNiCo.
> 
> [What can be more unequivocal than that?]


That statement as one in a list of multiple alternative hypotheses separated by what any reasonable person would have recognized as an "and/or" between them, perhaps....


----------



## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> Note that my claims were about demagnetization due to _drive level,_ though I did err in mislabeling the most important factor as heat rather than magnetic force. (IOW, I was wrong about the _source_ of the problem, but not the _effect_ nor its _relevance here._)





DS-21 said:


> But am I to infer from your post that you are denying that AlNiCo demagnetizes under high drive levels? (Not completely, perhaps, but partially and continuously, thus leading to permanent changes in the driver's motor force and thus fundamentally changing the performance of the speaker in question compared to its factory state?)


Your never claimed ALNiCo magnets were subject to demagnetization due to “high drive levels,” and you know it. On more than one occasion you said that ALNiCo magnets could not hold their charge under “heat.” Now, you claim you “mislabel[ed]” your assertion. :laugh: You continue to try and worm your way out of positions into which you have dug yourself. Now, after your position has been shown to be wrong, you have contrived a new position. So, let’s take this new position of yours. Instead of just stating things in the abstract as you are prone to do, 

1.	Tell us what amount of magnetic force created by “high drive levels” is sufficient to demagnetize ALNiCo magnets.

2.	Tell us what amount of demagnetization is necessary to “lead[] to permanent changes in the driver's motor force and thus fundamentally chang[e] the performance of the speaker in question compared to its factory state.” 

3.	Provide us valid speaker test results that show “high drive levels” led to “permanent changes in the driver's motor force and thus fundamentally chang[ed] the performance of the speaker in question compared to its factory state.” 

You make this possible demagnetization issue appear catastrophic when it is not. It can be (and is) designed around, and if you were as knowledgeable as you pretend, you would know that. If you need proof of this examine those large diameter speakers made by the “competent drive-unit makers (e.g. Tannoy, JBL, Altec, TAD, and so on)” you so readily embraced in an earlier post. Or, will you now say that the engineers with these “competent drive-unit makers” were actually incompetent for designing a speaker that utilized a magnet structure which, as you put it, “demagnetizes under high drive levels” “leading to permanent changes in the driver's motor force and thus fundamentally changing the performance of the speaker in question compared to its factory state? So, which is it?

As you ponder which new position you will now take, consider that some of the speakers manufactured by these “competent drive-unit makers,” which you showcased earlier with great delight, are still being purchased and used by consumers today who, by all indications, are quite satisfied with the speakers’ performance decades after their construction. Phass also has examples of its original ALNiCo speakers (circa 2002) that perform to their expected levels. Oh, I forgot, you don’t consider Phass to be a “known competent drive-unit maker.” 



DS-21 said:


> Also, your own source notes that AlNiCo magnets are quite fragile. Perhaps, then, not the smartest thing to use in a moving car...


Are you kidding me?! So you think a cast ALNiCo magnet is more fragile than the drive mechanism in a CD player, or the printed circuit board in an amplifier, or vacuum tubes, all of which have been successfully used in the mobile audio environment for decades? Give me a break. Your stupidity is really starting to show. “Fragile” in this context refers to the machining process, during which appropriate care must be taken to prevent the magnet from chipping or cracking. 

Because you clearly believe you must have the last word, I am sure you will fire off another barrage of insults and fallacious assertions rather than put your tail between your legs and go away. But, I am no longer going to participate in your juvenile game. Feel free to continue making a fool of yourself and showing your true colors. In closing, all I have to say is:


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

I'm still curious as to what DS-21 is trying to prove here....

These discussions become so freaking theoretical that we lose sight over what we are arguing over. 

Even if DS-21 could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Phass drivers aren't Alnico....is that the end of the world for Phass??

I doubt that that's the case in part because I just can't believe any manufacturer would lie about such a thing, and the rather high price of the Phass drivers leads me to believe they'd have to be alnico.

Materials as great as they are, are not always the end all/be all. IMO, the best car audio speakers ever made....the Nakamichi SP line, had a polypropylene cone for their 5" SP-50 and 6" SP-60 woofers, not paper, but poly.

So while I feel that paper is generally the best cone material (and indeed all of my favorite home gear is paper for the most part), a very well engineered and tuned 2nd or 3rd rate material can be better. 

BTW, how easy is it to prove the Alnico magnet in person? It would be nice for a third party to settle this stupid thing.


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## Mr. Randy (Apr 21, 2006)

Thats a nice looking setup you have there ISTUNDRA...


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Buzzman said:


> Your never claimed ALNiCo magnets were subject to demagnetization due to “high drive levels,” and you know it.


You may wish to actually review the claims made before spouting off cluelessly next time. See posts 22 and 27 in this thread. The relevant portion of each is reproduced below, with emphasis added:



DS-21 said:


> Also, how about you ask around about how AlNiCo holds up in *high power,* high heat situations, and think about whether "high power and high heat" may just _define_ the conditions a car audio midbass will face.





DS-21 said:


> Combine the general Japanese fetish for antique American stuff, and some Americans' fetish for "JDM" stuff...and you have a recipe for some very profitable ****. Even if it means that the obsolete magnets [(]assuming _arguendo_ that the magnet on the posted driver is in fact AlNiCo) will shortly demagnetize to uselessness due to the conditions car-fi drivers face both in terms of environment and *drive level* (to overcome the noise floor of a moving automobile).


So, what do I "know," again? 

I know you had read post 27, because you made a silly comment about my use of the term _arguendo_. So, which is it: poor memory? laziness? willful misrepresentation and hopes that nobody will catch you at it?

(However, I was perhaps a bit hyperbolic with the term "uselessness." Yes, the drivers will still probably technically make sound after prolonged high-level use. So technically they're not "useless," even though they will more likely than not be wildly out of factory spec. Assuming there _is_ a factory spec. As is typical with fetish-object snake oil audio parts, no meaningful specifications are provided for these drivers. A google search of "Phass alnico bl qes" turns up zero relevant hits. So how is one to know when the BL value falls below of spec due to demagnetization? Very crafty way to avoid returns there!)



Buzzman said:


> 1.	Tell us what amount of magnetic force created by “high drive levels” is sufficient to demagnetize ALNiCo magnets.


So now, after falsely and idiotically (given that the record is there for all to see) claiming that I was moving the crosshairs, you want to slip and slide around. You're the one trying to say that AlNiCo is an appropriate material for car-fi driver magnets, after *your own source candidly admits that AlNiCo is "easily" demagnetized by nearby magnetic fields.* (See infra.)

I know that I've actually heard the effects of AlNiCo demagnetization. I used to think Tannoy Gold's were awful drivers with undefined bass, rolled-off treble and much lower efficiency than their ratings would suggest. Later on, after learning a bit more, I learned that more likely than not what I heard was due to demagnetizing. I told the owner, and he one of them re-energized. I didn't get to hear the difference, but he told me that they sounded like completely different drivers, and he agreed with my observations now on the control one. He then had that one done. I didn't get a chance to hear them in "like new" state, unfortunately, for he promptly sold them and invested the proceeds in a set of modern Tannoy Glenairs with ferrite magnets and the improved "Tulip" tweeter waveguide. Very good-sounding speakers.



Buzzman said:


> 3.	Provide us valid speaker test results that show “high drive levels” led to “permanent changes in the driver's motor force and thus fundamentally chang[ed] the performance of the speaker in question compared to its factory state.”


Are you really denying, against all the evidence, that it's a problem?



Buzzman said:


> You make this possible demagnetization issue appear catastrophic when it is not. It can be (and is) designed around, and if you were as knowledgeable as you pretend, you would know that. If you need proof of this examine those large diameter speakers made by the “competent drive-unit makers (e.g. Tannoy, JBL, Altec, TAD, and so on)” you so readily embraced in an earlier post. Or, will you now say that the engineers with these “competent drive-unit makers” were actually incompetent for designing a speaker that utilized a magnet structure which, as you put it, “demagnetizes under high drive levels” “leading to permanent changes in the driver's motor force and thus fundamentally changing the performance of the speaker in question compared to its factory state? So, which is it?


That is correct. Those drivers all demagnetize under high drive levels. I've heard it in Tannoy Golds as well as in JBL woofers and the ex-Disney World TAD compression drivers I bought a decade or so ago. In fairness, most of those drivers were designed before the onset of really high power amps. Note that now, except for the occasional limited-edition bauble intended for "high end" consumers (more specifically, Asian retro-fetishists) neither Tannoy nor JBL currently use such magnets in their home or professional speaker lines.

(And if one wants realistic dynamics in a car with pint-sized midwoofer, high power is required. With a 99dB/W/m 15, one may get away with lower power in a domestic setting)




Buzzman said:


> As you ponder which new position you will now take, consider that some of the speakers manufactured by these “competent drive-unit makers,” which you showcased earlier with great delight, are still being purchased and used by consumers today who, by all indications, are quite satisfied with the speakers’ performance decades after their construction.


True. As in the one example I know, the speaker declined in performance with age due to demagnetization, but the owner didn't recognize it until he heard one with proper charge and one as-aged. 



Buzzman said:


> Are you kidding me?! So you think a cast ALNiCo magnet is more fragile than the drive mechanism in a CD player, or the printed circuit board in an amplifier, or vacuum tubes, all of which have been successfully used in the mobile audio environment for decades?


I don't know. Your own source claims they're fragile. 



Buzzman said:


> Give me a break. Your stupidity is really starting to show. “Fragile” in this context refers to the machining process, during which appropriate care must be taken to prevent the magnet from chipping or cracking.


Well, here's what your source actually said, with some emphasis added.

"Alnico is made of a compound of aluminum, nickel and cobalt. Alnico magnets were first developed in the 1940's. As can be seen in the table, this magnet is least affected by temperature, but *is easily demagnetized.* This is the reason why bar magnets and horseshoe magnets made of alnico will easily become demagnetized by other magnets, *by dropping it, and by not storing it with a keeper.* Its Tmax, though, is the highest."

Is it unfair to call something "fragile" when your own source claims it can be demagnetized by being "dropped" when used in a finished part? 
(Yes, finished part, not something subject to "the machining process." The examples given in your source were a "bar magnet" and a "horseshoe magnet," not raw material.)



Buzzman said:


>


Very (and typically) professional of you.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> I know that I've actually heard the effects of AlNiCo demagnetization. I used to think Tannoy Gold's were awful drivers with undefined bass and much lower efficiency than their ratings would suggest. Later on, after learning a bit more, I learned that more likely than not what I heard was due to remonetizing. I told the owner, and he one of them re-energized. I didn't get to hear the difference, but *he told me that they sounded* like completely different drivers. He then had the other one done. I didn't get a chance to hear them in "like new" state, unfortunately, for he promptly sold them and invested the proceeds in a set of modern Tannoy Glenairs with ferrite magnets. Very good-sounding speakers.


Jay, as much as you and I are both sticklers of data, I find it a bit unprecedented you're willing to present the evidence of effects of demagnetization as word of mouth. You're often very dismissive of a sound 'test' by ear, so I'm surprised you're willing to take it on its face. Know what I'm saying? 

Measuring a loss in Bl would be EXTREMELY easy to do, though, and I would expect that to be a tale-tell sign of the issue at hand. All someone has to have is the desire and a woofer tester with a sealed box to measure Bl. Would have been great if your friend could have measured before and after effects of the magnetization (making up words for the process) he sent the woofer in for.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> Very (and typically) professional of you.


Seriously Jay, you are calling someone unprofessional??? You of all people who name call and thread jack have no right to even hint at someone else being unprofessional. FWIW


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> Jay, as much as you and I are both sticklers of data, I find it a bit unprecedented you're willing to present the evidence of effects of demagnetization as word of mouth.


Some effects are quite dramatic. I would never say, for instance, that one needs a blind test to hear a difference in the modal region between a stereo pair of speakers and a well-set up multisub system, because the differences are simply huge.

Here, published information suggests that the overall efficiency drop can exceed 2dB*, which one needn't do a blind test to hear. (And of course it won't be uniform with level, because the change is that BL is lowered/Qes is increased.) 

*one representative cite: http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/smith.htm
"Terry Sorenson was the key guy on the SFG redesign. Terry wasn't a system designer (crossover networks) to the extent that Greg, or even I, was. But he was better with regard to theory and had a Physics background. The SFG story was that the ferrite magnets structures were designed, as you know, because of the rising cobalt prices. Ferrite structures with the same parameters of gap dimensions and flux density were made up but when listened to they sounded different. Further measurements showed much higher second harmonic distortion. The flux modulation ring dealt with the 2nd Harmonic and the undercutting also helped the low frequency distortion due to the symmetry. Mark Gander's AES paper shows typical curves. *The potential demagnetization of Alnico was also noticed at the time. I distinctly recall Greg Timbers having fun with modifying the parameters of Alnico woofers at will during development: 'I think the Q is a little low on this one. Maybe a 2 dB drop in sensitivity would be about right. Lets give it full output for a second from the Crown DC600 [note: rated 200W/8Ω]....Brrrapp. Curve it again and, yes, that's about right.'*"

(Of course, there's no reason to expect that a second "brapp" wouldn't cause further demagnetization.)



bikinpunk said:


> You're often very dismissive of a sound 'test' by ear, so I'm surprised you're willing to take it on its face. Know what I'm saying?


We're not talking about subtle differences, but wholesale changes in driver parameters.



bikinpunk said:


> Would have been great if your friend could have measured before and after effects of the magnetization (making up words for the process) he sent the woofer in for.


I agree, though other published results of AlNiCo drivers have shown big losses due to loss of flux. 

Here, we're talking about someone an ocean away from my measurement gear, and at the time I'm not sure I had assembled the FuzzMeasure impedance jig anyway.



Niebur3 said:


> Seriously Jay, you are calling someone unprofessional???


I'm not a professional, an agent representing a car audio firm. I'm a hobbyist. 

And yes, I'm calling people who create middle-finger ASCII art and post "butt kissing" pictures on a car-fi forum, _who are agents of car-fi companies,_ unprofessional.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> I'm not a professional, an agent representing a car audio firm. I'm a hobbyist.
> 
> And yes, I'm calling people who create middle-finger ASCII art and post "butt kissing" pictures _who are agents of car-fi companies_ unprofessional.


So, you liked the middle finger thing then? I thought it was fitting with dealing with someone of your stature! For a hobbyist, you do seem to try to throw your "professional" occupation and eduction (having NOTHING to do with car audio) in our faces. 

Besides, you are the ONLY person I would ever resort to that with. Please feel free to hijack someone else's thread to confirm, we all know you will!


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> Measuring a loss in Bl would be EXTREMELY easy to do, though, and I would expect that to be a tale-tell sign of the issue at hand. All someone has to have is the desire and a woofer tester with a sealed box to measure Bl. Would have been great if your friend could have measured before and after effects of the magnetization (making up words for the process) he sent the woofer in for.


As an addendum, here's some comparative data I found on a Tannoy Gold, albeit not the ones I heard.

Factory spec: BL=11.2; Qes=0.26.

Measured data for two used woofers: BL=7.3, 7.9; Qes=0.7, 0.7.

(Note that the two drivers are pretty consistent, considering their age. That implies generally good parts/build quality to me.)

The author doesn't seem to think that demagnetization is the issue, but the fact remains that the motor is much weaker than the published spec.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Niebur3 said:


> So, you liked the middle finger thing then? I thought it was fitting with dealing with someone of your stature! For a hobbyist, you do seem to try to throw your "professional" occupation and eduction (having NOTHING to do with car audio) in our faces.


Where did I list my occupation or education on this thread?

I think your poor little brain is confusing me with this Buzzman fellow, who wrote the following:



Buzzman said:


> ***But, you see, I always think before I write; ascribe it to my training as a lawyer.***





Buzzman said:


> ***Oh, I could post my resume (which will leave your head spinning with envy), but this isn’t DIY Lawyers***


The only person whose education was ever discussed in this thread was this Buzzman fellow. And that was solely at his own insistence. After all, he posted the first quote long before anyone else discussed education or professional qualifications. Such a post "opens the door" to discussions on his education and professional background (but only his, note) one would otherwise not discuss.




Niebur3 said:


> Besides, you are the ONLY person I would ever resort to that with***


I don't know whether to be flattered or creeped the hell out. I'm leaning strongly towards the latter.


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> Where did I list my occupation or education on this thread?
> 
> I think your poor little brain is confusing me with this Buzzman fellow, who wrote the following:
> 
> ...


My "poor little brain" reasonably assumes that your constant attack of his law background, terminology you so often write with, and knowledge of the reference that he graduated from a "TTT" law school, would indicate, you in fact are a lawyer/attorney yourself. Are you not??






DS-21 said:


> I don't know whether to be flattered or creeped the hell out. I'm leaning strongly towards the latter.


Creeped out that I choose to simply "flip you off" rather then enter into meaningless after meaningless discussion where you attempt to fool some into thinking you are actually an intelligent person? Interesting!


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Niebur3 said:


> My "poor little brain" reasonably assumes that your constant attack of his law background, terminology you so often write with, and knowledge of the reference that he graduated from a "TTT" law school, would indicate, you in fact are a lawyer/attorney yourself. Are you not??


Irrelevant. 

My qualifications were never at issue, because I never brought them up and thus opened the door to them becoming an issue. By contrast, this Buzzman fellow _chose_ to make his primary occupation an issue in this thread, by attempting to use his professional qualifications as a cover to spread nonsense. Perhaps he hoped nobody would just assume that a lawyer would know what s/he's talking about and be careful with her/his words, so nobody would point out how piss poor his reasoning has been. That kind of backfired on him, didn't it? 



Niebur3 said:


> Creeped out that I choose to simply "flip you off"


Creeped out that
(a) you chose to spend the time and effort to make that graphic (or find it somewhere, same difference)
(b) you say that you would "ONLY" devote that much time and effort to me. 

I mean, thanks and all, but I'm not interested in having a stalker. Go bug someone else.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> I mean, thanks and all, but I'm not interested in having a stalker. Go bug someone else.


Quit commenting on every damn post I make and I will leave you alone. Quit trying to "bully" people by slinging insults and calling names and I will leave you alone. I have never bowed down to bullies and I sure as hell am not going to start now! 

Go away, your like that damn fly that keeps buzzing around when you trying to eat outside...wish I had a bug zapper.

BTW Jay, my Dynaudio Esotar2 Setup combined with ARC SE amps, Pioneer P01 HU/Processor, IXOS Gamma Speaker Wire/RCA Cables sounds absolutely stunning. If you are ever in the neighborhood, feel free to stop by for a demo!


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## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

He's more like a fresh pile of shat, The odor just wont go away,

Go back play with your home theater setup.

He has no credentials to comment really on anything here. 

I mean come on - I'll pay his way out for the cage match -


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Hey xxx_busa, wanna send me some more PM's asking me to quit pointing out your friend's errors?


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Niebur3 said:


> Quit trying to "bully" people by slinging insults and calling names and I will leave you alone.


This post falls squarely into the "tell a lie often enough and maybe it'll become the truth" strategy. Who's "bullying" whom, exactly. 

I asked a reasonable question based on a car-fi company's agent's picture that clearly showed a driver that was either

(a) not using the claimed AlNiCo magnet driver, or 
(b) demonstrated a stunningly inefficient and incompetent use of that material.

(Note also that this little nobody fetish company and their mighty agent have no interest in actually getting and publishing real data on their products.)

And he comes on trying to act like a bigshot with guns blazing and the attitude that mere facts are beneath him. It's that kind of greasy schmuck who makes lawyers look bad to the general public.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Somehow, the Phass speakers on the US website that claim to be AlNiCo look different to me:








The only thing in common with the pictured speaker on the first page of this thread is the color of the magnet, not the shape...
PHASS | Alnico Magnet Series Speakers | High -End Car Audio

However on the soundservice.it website:
PHASS MD 0790
This amazing mid bass driver consists of the light weight and durable natural fiber(paper) cone with the optimal internal loss
and the rounded natural fabric sorround which are produced by Japanese traditional skilled craftsman and the clean magnet field Alnico, CNC lathed precise metal parts. MD0790 features wide frequency band from tight clear bass range to the articulate high frequency range. It realize the true ability of expression for the detail of music organically. 


Technical specifications:
Music power: 120W;
Sensitivity: 91dB;
Frequency response: 60-8,000Hz;
Outer dimension: 165mm;
Fixing hole: 142mm;
Installing depth: 65mm;
impedance: 6ohm;
Made in Japan

http://www.soundservice.lt/en/katalogas/automobiliams/speakers/phass/14-4-46-3.html#

And more on the original phass.jp site:
http://phass.jp/neoclacompoen.aspx
Lot's of data sheets, just not (yet?) for these...

I think I'll stick with my cheap neodymium woofers for now...

It's a pity this thread got derailed but I have to say I'd like to know the answers to the questions/doubts/concerns DS-21 has brought up about these woofers.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Wesayso said:


> Somehow, the Phass speakers on the US website that claim to be AlNiCo look different to me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


FYI, the small magnet type (Focal style) is the old version. Small explanation on the Phass-Europe website: 
PHASS - Speakers 


Kelvin


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

Wesayso said:


> Somehow, the Phass speakers on the US website that claim to be AlNiCo look different to me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sir, as I clearly stated in post 43, *"the photo posted by the other forum member . . . was taken from the still live website of the now defunct former U.S. distributor for Phass, and . . . the photo shown was of the MW 4415 midbass (as shown on the label on the back side of the magnet in the photo), which has been discontinued for several years.* (Emphasis Added.)

The owner of what is called "Phass USA" has not had any official relationship with Phass since 2008. Unfortunately, his website, which does not feature any of Phass' newer products, is still live. We do not know his whereabouts and, therefore, we have been unable to get the website shut down. 



Wesayso said:


> It's a pity this thread got derailed but I have to say I'd like to know the answers to the questions/doubts/concerns DS-21 has brought up about these woofers.


It appears that you have not read my responses to DS-21 in this thread.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Buzzman said:


> Sir, as I clearly stated in post 43, *"the photo posted by the other forum member . . . was taken from the still live website of the now defunct former U.S. distributor for Phass, and . . . the photo shown was of the MW 4415 midbass (as shown on the label on the back side of the magnet in the photo), which has been discontinued for several years.* (Emphasis Added.)
> 
> The owner of what is called "Phass USA" has not had any official relationship with Phass since 2008. Unfortunately, his website, which does not feature any of Phass' newer products, is still live. We do not know his whereabouts and, therefore, we have been unable to get the website shut down.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that reply. However, I've read your responces and those of DS-21. I do feel DS-21 has made some strong points and have not seen a clear answer to those points. 
Most of us here are music lovers so if Phass is as great as it would seem from all the raving reports why not take up DS-21's suggestion and send one of those woofers to be tested to show why they are that special.
That's the part I am interested in. I'm not taking any sides in the derailed part of this thread. I must say I kinda enjoyed reading it as cheap entertainment but nothing more.
It would be more entertaining to learn more about these woofers though. That's why I googled for some information and posted about it.


If your points are right testing the woofer would not destroy it. If DS-21 is right though it might. Just trying to learn more about these woofers and their unusual use of AlNiCo magnets. Perhaps you can help make that happen, if the test shows why these speakers work that well it would not harm anyone right? Too bad Bikinpunk is having a break from testing if he ever resumes it.
I'm sure he would have been willing to test it.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

Wesayso said:


> Thanks for that reply. However, I've read your responces and those of DS-21. I do feel DS-21 has made some strong points and have not seen a clear answer to those points.
> Most of us here are music lovers so if Phass is as great as it would seem from all the raving reports why not take up DS-21's suggestion and send one of those woofers to be tested to show why they are that special.
> That's the part I am interested in. I'm not taking any sides in the derailed part of this thread. I must say I kinda enjoyed reading it as cheap entertainment but nothing more.
> It would be more entertaining to learn more about these woofers though. That's why I googled for some information and posted about it.
> ...


You and I obviously disagree about the merits of DS-21's points, which I have addressed and about which I will say nothing further. More troubling to me is your notion that I should send the speakers in for testing to "show why they are so special." I will repeat again: it is not my nor Phass' responsibility to send products out for testing of electroacoustic parameters to satisfy consumer curiosity. Phass conducts its own research, development and testing, and manufactures products that meets its standards and vision. As is the case with EVERY consumer product, ANY third party is free to purchase a product and have it tested in any manner they wish. That is how such "testing" gets done. If you have indeed read my posts in this thread, you should be well aware of the offers I have made to DS-21 in this regard. For many consumers, the only "lab" testing that matters is the testing they conduct in their vehicles with music playing. And they purchase the product in order to be able to conduct such testing. You are more than welcome to contact a Phass dealer in Europe regarding purchasing a product so you can conduct whichever form of testing you desire.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

You know it wasn't my idea to send in a speaker for testing. That was suggested by DS-21 earlyer in this thread. I'm sorry to read that won't be happening. Nowhere near me, I as a customer will be able to hear these speakers but they have a price point that triggers my rational side to want to know more about them before I would take a gamble and buy them.
I bought my current Hertz ML 1600 woofers after reading about them on this site and without hearing them first. All that based on user reviews and some testing done by one of this site's members (at that time owner actually). 
The testing part satisfied my rational side, the user reviews triggered my emotional side and combined I took a gamble that I did not regret.
I'm not in the market for new woofers, but if I was I would like to know more about them before jumping in. Hearing them would usually be enough but that's not always possible.

That said I have no doubts you believe in them and I wasn't trying to be sarcastic when I wrote the words: "show why they are so special."
But any woofer with a price point above say $ 300,- I'd have to be sure enough they could be that special. I'm just beeing honest here, no hidden agenda.
I subscribed to this thread early on before it got derailed just to learn more about Phass, as I have done in the past with a thread about for example: Pioneer Stage 4 speakers, Dynaudio, Hat etc. 
Just curious about different kind of speakers and their merrits.

Maybe the OP: ISTundra is the smartest of us all just enjoying his new speakers 
I sure hope he does and even hope he will bring this thread back on track with a great user review posted seperately (serious!)


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## ISTundra (Jan 3, 2009)

As the OP, I'm asking a mod to clean up this thread of all the dick-swinging & personal attacks, and to delete, or move the debate about the driver/magnet construction & merits to another thread if necessary.

This is goddamn ridiculous.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Buzzman said:


> More troubling to me is your notion that I should send the speakers in for testing to "show why they are so special." I will repeat again: it is not my nor Phass' responsibility to send products out for testing of electroacoustic parameters to satisfy consumer curiosity.


That is of course true. 

You may wish to only target ignorant consumers who are highly susceptible to snake-oil laden sales pitches and idiotic displays of senseless "kiss my ass" bravado on the internet.

That is a legitimate business decision. And in audio, as a business decision it is unimpeachable.

*After all, what are probably the two biggest and most profitable firms in the industry, Bose and Monster Cable, practice precisely that same approach of targeting ignorant consumers who are highly susceptible to snake-oil laden sales pitches.*
(Though their marketers generally display more tact than this Buzzman fellow does.)

However, be aware that others will draw reasonable inferences from that legitimate business decision about the actual merits of the product. 

After all, it is not in the self-interest of a firm or marketer of a high-performance product to willfully conceal data from potential consumers when that data will reflect well on the product. 

But obviously, if the thing is garbage it is a much smarter marketing technique to concentrate on the pitch and the mystique rather than the actual product performance. 

It works brilliantly for Bose, after all!


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## dman (Dec 21, 2008)

ISTundra said:


> As the OP, I'm asking a mod to clean up this thread of all the dick-swinging & personal attacks, and to delete, or move the debate about the driver/magnet construction & merits to another thread if necessary.
> 
> This is goddamn ridiculous.


brother, i feel for ya.. and i totally agree...


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## rockytophigh (Apr 16, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> That is of course true.
> 
> You may wish to only target ignorant consumers who are highly susceptible to snake-oil laden sales pitches and idiotic displays of senseless "kiss my ass" bravado on the internet.
> 
> ...


Wasn't this whole fiasco about the merits of the product from a 3rd party? Did he come on here to spread his snake oil or did you jump in the thread with full wrath & vigor? This has just gotten terrible IMO. 

Now I WANT to buy Phass speakers.....way to go lol


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

rockytophigh said:


> Now I WANT to buy Phass speakers.....way to go lol


Yeah, 

DS-21 is trying to discredit/question these speakers as a "concerned consumer" (based on a picture.....A PICTURE!!!). He is trying to enlighten people about the so called "snake oil" injected straight into these, and yet all he did was make himself look like an ass and made people want to buy them even more.

Way to go!!! I now see your vastly superior intelligence you always try to show us (dude either has stock in Phass and accomplished his goal using reverse psychology or is as dumb as a rock....I think the latter)!

Buzzman, you going to have enough stock to fill all these upcoming orders??? lol

BTW, I did state earlier that I felt sorry for the OP and personally asked DS-21 to move this to a thread of his own, but I guess he only cares to get the last word in. It is hard to allow him to post last when HE is the one making the false accusation!


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Niebur3 said:


> DS-21 is trying to discredit/question these speakers as a "concerned consumer" (based on a picture.....A PICTURE!!!).


A picture can tell a person capable of rational human thought quite a bit. 



Niebur3 said:


> BTW, I did state earlier that I felt sorry for the OP and personally asked DS-21 to move this to a thread of his own, but I guess he only cares to get the last word in.


You may recall that I seconded your request for _mods_ to move the thread. 



Niebur3 said:


> My only issue with this whole thread is how incredibly off topic it has become. You would think a mod would intervene***





DS-21 said:


> Actually, your "issue" is more likely that you fell for a line of swill from someone playing a second-rate lawyer on the internet, and got called out for it.
> 
> That said, if the mods want to split off the relevant parts of this thread into something along with a name something like: "Does this Phass driver actually have an AlNiCo magnet?" that does seem entirely appropriate to me.


Words mean things.



Niebur3 said:


> It is hard to allow him to post last when HE is the one making the false accusation!


What accusation is false? I mean, except for the accusations by this Buzzman fellow, you, and other like-minded snake-oil enforcers.


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## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Wow, some guy wanted to show off his new toys. And then some ******* comes in running his mouth. Then ran it some more, and some more. 

Someone is over compensating for something.....

What were we talking about, anyway? 

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk


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