# Erin's Audio Corner... (my new site/YouTube review page)



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Update 02/28/2020:*

Good news! I got a quote from them this morning. As expected, however, it’s not cheap. Regardless, I’m moving forward and will be sending payment shortly. But I would really appreciate any donations from the community that I can get to help me offset those costs and, namely, to help fund some of the other things I would like to purchase to help me make my testing more efficient and accurate.

If you don’t mind helping out, you can use the link below to contribute to via PayPal (they take 3%, I’m OK with that):



https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/contribute/





If you don’t care about the rest of the details then there’s no need to read any further. However, if you’re interested in what your donations would be going toward, keep on reading…

I want to provide as much accurate information as I can about drive units, speakers and whatever miscellaneous ‘tasks’ I take on. IMHO, Klippel products will provide far more depth of knowledge than anything else and that’s why I’ve chosen their product(s). But I also want to keep my hobby/family balance. Testing takes up a good deal of time; but it's not so much the "test" as it is the setup/takedown time: cutting baffles, setting up the measurement rigs, getting the cabling out and running all the wires, fixing the driver/speaker to the test stand, and then writing up the report. In the time it takes to get prepped for a test I can complete another test cycle.

To help with accuracy and efficiency, I also hope to build a dedicated "test" space in my attic. I have about 11x17 feet that I'll need to floor, wall, and insulate to make it a test room. The reasons this is important to me are:
1) Scientifically speaking, the space would be large enough to push the first reflection out another 1 or 2 milliseconds which may not sound like much but is another 200hz or so of accuracy in my measurements. 200hz is a lot when you're expanding that over multiple octaves.
2) It gives me a fully repeatable environment to work within whereas my garage is a state of constant flux with temperature, humidity and ... stuff. Having a dedicated area means that the ambient conditions are within reason throughout the year but also it means that I won't have to spend hours setting up gear and taking it down to complete a couple tests which would help me complete more tests over time.
3) If I were to go this route I could also build an ‘infinite’ baffle to help with drive-unit testing.

Another thing that would help immensely is a small, tabletop, CNC. For raw driver testing I use a large baffle which has a cut-out for inserting smaller baffles. These smaller baffles are the pieces that the raw drivers are attached to. In my previous years of testing I didn't have the ability to surface mount complex drivers or oversized flange drivers. This was a detriment to my results (I always noted when that was the case). Surface mounting is the proper way to test drivers. I do own a router but the time it takes to cut flush-mount surfaces for some drivers … well, it adds up over time. Therefore, I would also like to purchase a small, table-top CNC router so I can cut my baffles to the exact dimensions needed for a driver cut-out. I've got my eye on an item that is just large enough to cut the baffle templates I need.

The third thing is having an automated turntable for polar measurements (on/off-axis frequency response). Now, I can build one from wood … I’ve done it before. But it’s a manual turning system which consists of: measure speaker, go turn speaker, measure speaker, go turn speaker… doing that in 5 to 10 degree increments over 90 to 180 degrees takes time. So, it would be really nice to use one that’s automated and works with the Klippel where I could click the run button and let it measure and rotate automatically. Again, this helps with repeatability and accuracy. But these are not cheap, either. I’ve gotten a couple quotes back > $3k. So, this is probably more of a pipedream at this point.

Obviously I wouldn’t be doing this if I didn’t enjoy it and feel like I’m learning from it as well so I’m not about to cry “woe, is me” here. But presenting data to the masses requires an extra level of accuracy and robustness that throwing together a simple test setup in my spare bedroom and caveating to the nth degree cannot provide; I know this from experience. So anything you can donate to help me with that would really and truly be appreciated.
Thanks again,
- Erin

















*Original Post:*
Many of you know that I used to do speaker/driver testing for a number of years for DIYMA before moving on to creating my own site (medleysmusings). I took the last couple years off due to personal reasons. But I'm gearing back up to do something big, at least for me. I’ve been itching to change things up and move my review format to YouTube and also expand out of raw driver testing and instead provide a wider range of information. So, that's what I'm doing.


The core of my efforts will focus on product reviews and tutorials (i.e., how to use a DSP, how to tune, what to listen for, etc) along with some other miscellaneous things. I will continue to provide objective data when I can/where it makes sense and I plan to do that as a supplement to the YouTube format; providing the data via a new website. I have a long list of ideas that I’ve collected over years. I think I have a few ideas for my reviews you all will really dig.


I have created a Facebook Group page for those who want to follow it. This page will be a way for me to update everyone on progress I make toward completing reviews. If I get a new piece of hardware to test I’ll share it. Links will be posted to reviews. That sort of stuff. It’ll be an extension of my YouTube review page because, frankly, it’s easier to support conversation here than it is on YouTube. Here’s the link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/607627396679113/


To be entirely transparent, I hope to be ad-driven at some point and also do some affiliate marketing (i.e., Amazon, Parts-Express, etc) so I can use some of the advertising revenue toward purchasing new test equipment and products to test/review. I don’t see me ever actually making money; breaking even would be nice. I’ve already sunk nearly a grand in to what I need to get going. In order to get to the point where I can monetize videos through YouTube, however, I’ll need to hit 1k subscribers, and some crazy number of hours viewed per month. So, I ask you all, if you are interested in any of the stuff I’ve done in the past or you just want to support what I’m doing, go ahead to my YouTube page and click the subscribe button. I don’t have anything out there at this moment in the way of reviews but I’m already working on some really, really cool stuff. And if you are interested in the items I review in the future, feel free to click any links I provide to my affiliate advertisers so I can get a small percentage of the purchase fee (hey, you were gonna buy it anyway). All that helps me keep this thing rolling and keep me from going in debt in the process.


Here’s a link to my YouTube page:
Erin's Audio Corner

And that’s it… I just ask you to bear with me. I’m not a video editor so I don’t expect to knock this stuff out of the park my first few attempts. But over time, with your feedback, I will hopefully improve the final product and provide an entertaining and educational set of videos. 
Thanks,
Erin


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Subscribed! Looking forward to the content!

I'm sure I can't provide much in the way of technical help, but if you need someone to help "proof-read" some content to make it more accessible for your target audience send me a PM, I'd be happy to help.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I appreciate the offer. I may need help with pulling my head out of my butt now and again... too bad that can't be done electronically. lol.


----------



## carlthess40 (Aug 21, 2018)

Erin. If you need and test gear or drivers to help with your YouTube project. Send me a message, I have scopes, meters ESR meters
And all kinds of stuff. Never know what I have that you could use. I also just bought a large 3d printer. Can print 300mm x 300mm x 400mm tall. Learning how this stuff works
Good luck on this. I’ve been thinking about doing something like this as well, but with my poor health, I’m not very reliable and consistent on a time fashion with doing things


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Where do I go to ask stupid questions about what midbass setup to use. Lol? Looking forward to it. Medley Musings was awesome and this sounds like it will be even better. And just today I was thinking people like Erin are going to start dropping since they have a great system and no reason to continue playing with car audio.


----------



## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

I liked the BMX videos on your YouTube channel... brings back memories (waaaay back for me)


----------



## locoface (Nov 9, 2016)

Sweet following.


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

jimmydee said:


> I liked the BMX videos on your YouTube channel... brings back memories (waaaay back for me)


Back in the Bikinipunk days, haha


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Have always appreciated your work....just subscribed to your youtube channel!!!

Also have equipment for you to test if you ever want...DRZ9255 and various sound "enhancer"processors, including the RFQ5000, Fosgate Gavotte, and an ESP3


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Wow! Awesome news, Erin! 

I can't think of a better person to do this. I've enjoyed watching some of Nick Apicella's videos as well as Peter @ _PSsound_, Dean & Fernando @ _Five Star Car Stereo_, some of Pete K's vids on _HexiBase_, and some of Danny Richie's vids on the _New Record Day_'s "Tuesday Tech Talk" series, etc.

But I'm most excited because I know you'll bring a lot of great knowledge and especially objective info to the topics & reviews. You've obviously had a lot of first-hand experience with a lot of different products and setups, so that will add heaps of value to your content.

I think that your first video should be an "introductory" video (like your OP here), basically letting people know who you are, where you come from, and what your experience and background is, so that new subscribers in particular have a reference point.

Also outline (as you did here) what the main focus and topics will be, your M.O. and/or your mission statement...and where you'd like to take it in the future.

The most difficult part of creating and producing video content is the actual video and audio EDITING. It can be a huge time sinkhole. I think you'll find that the easy part is actually recording the content. 

And I'm sure it's obvious, but one of the most important things in producing _video_ content is the _audio quality_ of dialog, etc... especially when your YouTube channel will be audio-centric in content. I've watched plenty of extremely knowledgeable "audio" guys get "burned at the stake'' and lose a lot of credibilty for having poor quality audio in their presentations and video content. :/

A great channel for reference & information in this area is the _Curtis Judd_ YouTube channel.

I'll head over in a moment and subscribe to your YouTube channel and try to spread the word whenever I can. 

Looking forward to your success! THANKS!

EDIT: We need to start a GoFundMe campaign to get you an Audio Precision APx. 
.


----------



## Blu (Nov 3, 2008)

Subscribed to YouTube channel and requested to join FB group.

Looking forward to seeing how this project develops!


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> I think that your first video should be an "introductory" video (like your OP here), basically letting people know who you are, where you come from, and what your experience and background is, so that new subscribers in particular have a reference point.
> 
> Also outline (as you did here) what the main focus and topics will be, your M.O. and/or your mission statement...and where you'd like to take it in the future.


Yep. That's the plan. Been working a script. I like shooting from the hip a lot but I am going to try to script some of these where necessary.



bbfoto said:


> And I'm sure it's obvious, but one of the most important things in producing _video_ content is the _audio quality_ of dialog, etc... especially when your YouTube channel will be audio-centric in content. I've watched plenty of extremely knowledgeable "audio" guys get "burned at the stake'' and lose a lot of credibilty for having poor quality audio in their presentations and video content. :/


My mic(s) should be here tomorrow. Don't wanna give anything away there, though. 



bbfoto said:


> EDIT: We need to start a GoFundMe campaign to get you an Audio Precision APx.


Dude. You have no idea. Over the past 10 years I have spent _countless hours_ researching cost-efficient alternatives. Every two years I come back around to the idea but always wind up exiting it with the same result: no freaking way I can afford to do what I want to do. I see people making crude measurements but IMHO if you can't provide quality measurements then there's no sense bothering. As you seem to know, the AP units are an easy $4k _used_ and most of those don't necessarily have the full suite of what I want. And the good ones are still in the thousands. Unfortunately, some of the options I thought would be more feasible are either still too limited (desktop DAC with software) or the quality just isn't there (QA), or there's no support (HP 8903 units). And that isn't even getting in to the power supply and resistor banks. I'm not gonna break myself for this hobby. I just wish I had a connection nearby that I could go to and conduct tests and then provide the data. I also looked in to the amp dyno but that's $3500 and doesn't even provide data such as FR, %THD over frequency, etc which would be nice to have if I'm paying that much. But, I do like that's it easy to set up and repeatable. I'd use one if I could afford it.

All this is just the tip of my brain dump. Just trust me when I say that if it were feasible for me to do it, I would. I'll leave it up to the team at AudioScienceReview to do that kind of stuff.

Edit: And TBH, the speakers and the room are infinitely more important than amplifiers when it comes to the playback system. I'd prefer to put my time in to areas that will be more beneficial to the community at large. I just don't see a legitimate benefit to plotting FR of an amplifier. Power tests, sure, to verify mfg specs. But. like speaker drivers, you learn who the legitimate companies are and you trust their specs. If they don't provide it then it's time to consider something else.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

BUT.....

You're absolutely more than welcome to start one for me. I've got a lot of speakers I want to test that I can't come close to affording.


----------



## carlthess40 (Aug 21, 2018)

Well if you need a Dayton test mic and a scope for stating out I’ll send you mine to get up and running, but I’m sure you have those anyway
GL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

carlthess40 said:


> Well if you need a Dayton test mic and a scope for stating out I’ll send you mine to get up and running, but I’m sure you have those anyway
> GL
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the offer. Very kind. 

I do have a mic. However, I don't have a real scope. I do have the SMDD-1 thing and that works OK. But a scope with a voltage display is something I'd like to have at some point.


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

ErinH said:


> Yep. That's the plan. Been working a script. I like shooting from the hip a lot but I am going to try to script some of these where necessary.
> ...
> My mic(s) should be here tomorrow. Don't wanna give anything away there, though.
> ...
> ...


??

I assume you have the new DATS v3? A CLIO rig would be nice as well. 

If you haven't seen them already, check out the new Danish audio company, _*Purifi Audio*_. It's headed up by a serious group of engineers in both transducers/acoustics & amplifier electronics.

I'm looking forward to trying their new 6.5" (7") and 4'' drivers. Fairly impressive review with measurements on the *PTT6.5W04-01A* in _HiFi Compass_.

Purifi Audio Tech & Blog

HiFi Compass Test Review - Purifi PTT6.5W04-01A


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

ErinH said:


> Edit: And TBH, the speakers and the room are infinitely more important than amplifiers when it comes to the playback system. I'd prefer to put my time in to areas that will be more beneficial to the community at large. I just don't see a legitimate benefit to plotting FR of an amplifier. Power tests, sure, to verify mfg specs. But. like speaker drivers, you learn who the legitimate companies are and you trust their specs. If they don't provide it then it's time to consider something else.


Thanks for this, I couldn’t give a damn if an amp makes 109 watts or 98 watts, or if there is a slight fluctuation in frequency response. Measuring amps would be a waste of your time and wouldn’t provide any real useful information, unless some particularly unique amps come into play.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> ??
> 
> I assume you have the new DATS v3? A CLIO rig would be nice as well.
> 
> ...


Nope. I don't have the v3. I have the v2, though. They're OOS on the v3 right now.

The CLIO is nice but I don't have the funds to buy it. Plus, I'd have to learn a new piece of hardware and software. I'll be using the UMIK-1 & REW for my purposes. It's sufficient. The OmniMic would be a nice-to-have from a simplicity POV. Shouldn't have sold my last one. I've also reached out to another manufacturer about some of their gear but most likely I won't be doing raw driver testing for a long time. If ever. It's a pain in the butt. I must have tested well over 100 drive units and the put-up/tear-down process for the whole measurement rig was a royal pain in the butt. 

You mentioning the CLIO and DATS v3 and the part about the CLIO rig being nice ... are you doing driver tests as well? If so, and if you want a hand, shoot me a PM and I can give you my number and do a brain dump... everything from IEC baffles to measurement conditions and calculations; I'd be happy to hook you up with some stuff if it would help you. It would be cool if someone else wanted to take that over. There's only one site that does raw driver testing anymore. Been a few people to talk about it but no one has taken the mantle yet, though.

I saw your thread about the 6.5" but didn't know they were making a 4". I'll have to check that out. Looks promising.


----------



## 01LSi (Jul 27, 2012)

I’ll loan ya my mini DSP ears if you do a step by step tutorial on it if that sounds interesting to you. 

I wanna understand how you create your own house curve based off it and specific gear. Haven’t had the time to really dig into it myself and confirm I’m even approaching it the best way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

ErinH said:


> Nope. I don't have the v3. I have the v2, though. They're OOS on the v3 right now.
> 
> The CLIO is nice but I don't have the funds to buy it. Plus, I'd have to learn a new piece of hardware and software. I'll be using the UMIK-1 & REW for my purposes. It's sufficient. The OmniMic would be a nice-to-have from a simplicity POV. Shouldn't have sold my last one. I've also reached out to another manufacturer about some of their gear but most likely I won't be doing raw driver testing for a long time. If ever. It's a pain in the butt. I must have tested well over 100 drive units and the put-up/tear-down process for the whole measurement rig was a royal pain in the butt.
> 
> ...


You mean you didn't preorder the DATS v3? I've already tossed mine in a corner because it's so inconsistent from one sweep to the next. By not preordering, you may have to wait until all the bugs are worked out.


----------



## Buffboy (Nov 11, 2015)

I'm in for both Erin. Awhile back you helped me with some questions I had about the P99RS, so looking forward to the new data and insights you'll be sharing with us in the future! Appreciate what you do for our hobby. Chris


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I appreciate that.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

ckirocz28 said:


> You mean you didn't preorder the DATS v3? I've already tossed mine in a corner because it's so inconsistent from one sweep to the next. By not preordering, you may have to wait until all the bugs are worked out.


haha. Nope. What's funny is when they first announced it the targeted release was November. I was going to pre-order but then I figured I'd just wait it out. Two days later they pushed it back a month. 

I am hopeful for it, though. I truly believe the DATS v2 is an invaluable tool. The v3 adds a couple things I like so at some point I probably will get it. Just not anytime soon.


----------



## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Erin, I applaud you on your new venture to help educate the rest of the world on home and car audio speakers and equipment. You have been doing this for many years from the sidelines and I look forward to seeing what new information you can provide for all of us. I have followed many of your previous product reviews and just like Peter @PSSound, Dean and Fernando @5STAR, Richardo Rangel, Mark @CAF, Steve @SteveMeade, and of cource Nick @ Apicella your videos will be on point.

Best of Luck.... Subscribed


----------



## jackk (Dec 27, 2010)

ErinH said:


> Many of you know that I used to do speaker/driver testing for a number of years for DIYMA before moving on to creating my own site (medleysmusings). I took the last couple years off due to personal reasons. But I'm gearing back up to do something big, at least for me. I’ve been itching to change things up and move my review format to YouTube and also expand out of raw driver testing and instead provide a wider range of information. So, that's what I'm doing.
> 
> 
> The core of my efforts will focus on product reviews and tutorials (i.e., how to use a DSP, how to tune, what to listen for, etc) along with some other miscellaneous things. I will continue to provide objective data when I can/where it makes sense and I plan to do that as a supplement to the YouTube format; providing the data via a new website. I have a long list of ideas that I’ve collected over years. I think I have a few ideas for my reviews you all will really dig.
> ...


Subbed the utube channel. thanks for the effort mate! 

Cheers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

For those who don't "do" Facebook...


One of the things I want to do for my speaker reviews is to record the stereo sound like you are actually _in_ my room or car, hearing it first hand. I have binaural mics but they aren't good for higher SPL recordings and the setup to make sure I get repeatable measurements is a pain. Repeatable is key. So this is what I‘ve settled on: 

Zoom H3-VR





Amazon.com: Zoom H3-VR 360° Audio Recorder, Records Ambisonics, Binaural, and Stereo, Battery Powered, Records to SD Card, Wireless Control, for VR & Surround Sound Video, Music, and Streaming: Musical Instruments


Buy Zoom H3-VR 360° Audio Recorder, Records Ambisonics, Binaural, and Stereo, Battery Powered, Records to SD Card, Wireless Control, for VR & Surround Sound Video, Music, and Streaming: Musical Instruments - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



amzn.to





I will place it at the seated position and use its built-in binaural processing to record the sound system. The audio will be published to a link and most likely my YouTube page. The idea is that, over time, I will have amassed enough of these “virtual system recordings” that people can coNo are characteristics of the speakers. It will not replace a speaker in your room but it should give a reasonable baseline to draw some conclusions about the performance; especially in regards to interaction with the room when it comes to speaker directivity (I.e., a highly directional waveguide vs an omnidirectional speaker). Additionally, it’ll be an easy way to discuss things to listen for in songs as well as compare differences in DSP settings (think: room correction vs without). 

The listener will have to listen back with headphones to get the desired effect. But ... it's pretty dang awesome. 

I’ve attached one of my test files from last night. I’m still learning this tool to determine the best balance between mic sensitivity and recorded SPL capability. But it’s very promising. Give it a listen. But remember: *use headphones*. 

200109_012.WAV

I will test this device out in my home theater tonight, where I expect the difference between left and right to be more apparent (in a car, the soundstage is limited in width by the physical dimensions of the car; you can't get wider than about 15 degrees on the left and the right side is as wide as 45 degrees so it's a very asymmetrical stage, even with using time alignment and level matching to help center up the vocalist between the two sides).


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Count me in! This is going to be great!

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Very cool and really interested to see how the Zoom H3-VR recorder works out.  Will listen to the test file this evening.

And I wish I had the time & dedication to do serious speaker testing. Like you mentioned, to do it properly it takes A LOT of setup and time. I also don't want to dedicate an exclusive space at home in order to do it right without the constant setup/breakdown...I'd want things to be as consistent as possible, and I'd quickly lose my desire to perform the tests if I didn't have a dedicated, 24/7, "ready-to-go" area and setup.

As much as I've learned about the process from you and others, at this point in time my brain isn't quite ready for the true deep dive into the technical aspects. Seems as if my brain is shrinking as I get older. :-/ 

I also have several other hobbies and time sinks (family & friends), so it would be difficult to find the necessary time. In addition, I might be moving back to Oz, so that might throw a wrench in lots of things, haha!

Well, I've obviously presented as many excuses as I could possibly come up with, so I guess the true desire just isn't there. 

But I'm excited for your new project and journey, and AS ALWAYS, greatly appreciate your time and effort in sharing your journey and educating others.




P.S. Oh, Claus Neesgaard from Purifi got back to me regarding the availability of the upcoming 4" midrange. Preliminery specs can be seen HERE, but Claus said they will be releasing a lot more details on the website in just a few weeks, and production should start very soon after. I had hope that the magnet/motor would be significantly smaller like your Dyn e430, but understood given the +/-10mm linear xmax for a 4" driver! :O

I will be ordering the 6.5" very soon. Planning to build small, sealed kickpanels or door enclosures, and wouldn't mind trying their SPK5 DIY Home Bookshelf  design. Might try to see if others here or elsewhere are interested in ordering the PTT6.5W04-01A as well since there's a decent savings even when ordering 4 units as oppossed to 2-3. There's about a 4 week lead time from order to shipment.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> I don't want to do any testing.



There. Fixed it for you. LOL.


And, yea, I get it. I just typed up a long reply about what I've gone through in the past and the hurdles I'm about to have to jump but I won't waste the time. It's sufficient enough to simply say: Speaker/driver testing isn't entirely easy. It's a big undertaking to do it and do it right.


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

ErinH said:


> There. Fixed it for you. LOL.
> 
> 
> And, yea, I get it. I just typed up a long reply about what I've gone through in the past and the hurdles I'm about to have to jump but I won't waste the time. It's sufficient enough to simply say: Speaker/driver testing isn't entirely easy. It's a big undertaking to do it and do it right.


Perfectly succinct, as usual.  Thanks Erin.

So I listened to your recording in the Civic with the H3-VR and here are my quickly jotted notes:

Panel Resonance in left channel on Norah Jones track at ~6:06 along with a few others scattered throughout.

Substantially increased noise floor & hiss only during playback of the tracks. When you are speaking with no music playing the noise floor is fairly low, but still noticable.

Right channel is quite a bit louder, skews center of stage from just Right of Center to Right Center. This is true even when you are speaking. Are you sitting in the passenger seat?
When you play the Left Channel/Right Channel verification dialog track, the voices are roughly Left Center and Right Center, not extreme Left or Right. Soundstage is quite diffuse in general.

Ultimately, does not accurately capture the true Focus, Width, and Separation of the soundstage.

On the "Let It Whip" track, the system volume was oversaturating the microphone capsules at the beginning. It was much better when you turned it down and said "I'm speaking at a normal level".

IMO this recording technique is capturing too much of the "room". This typically happens when the microphone(s) are not placed close enough to the source. It's the Inverse-Square-Law coming into play. The focus, imaging, and soundstage are much too diffuse. I know that there are almost a limitless amount of settings and "polar pattern" or mixing adjustments within the H3-VR software, so you need to explore this further. I think that a more traditional ORTF might work better.

Having said all this, it is still discernable that your system is well-balanced and highly-resolving of fine details, and JAMS! It is mostly the soundstage accuracy that is not being represented well because of too much "room" and too much crosstalk.

As a reference, I listened to this using the AKG N5005 universal IEMs which do a great job regarding clarity, accuracy, tonality, and soundstage presentation.

Have you recorded your home setup with the H3-VR yet?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I recorded my home theater system yesterday. So here you go:








Test 2.flac


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





Don’t get bogged down in analyzing the sound system. I'm really only concerned about the quality of the recording. It is fun to listen to music on but it's purpose built for home theater and there are definitely difference between this and my car. The HT recording has less room interaction. The directional horns play a part. And the room is about 17 ft wide x 22 ft deep with 8 or 9 foot ceilings. It is also treated with absorption panels on the sides, a fiberglass filled riser for second row seating which acts as a bass trap, the speakers are about 3 feet off the back wall and the false 'wall' is entirely covered in 2" thick foam wedges. So the room is treated well and the speakers have controlled directivity down to about 500hz with these horns.

And, yes, binaural recordings in a car are tough. When i did this with actual binaural mics and me sitting in the car the result was roughly the same in regards to the diffuse soundfield. A car system is by far the hardest environment we have to get right. Heck, it takes some time for our actual ears to "calibrate" to the car. I've seen people get poor scores from judges because the judges get in expecting a certain soundfield and when they get something else it throws them off. They have to listen to the system for at least a few minutes to kind of get re-calibrated to the system. Mark Eldridge's NASCAR is a fine example; it does so much stuff a normal car can't do that it seems odd at first. But after a minute you realize it's like listening to nothing you've ever heard before.

Also of note is Zoom says this: "To minimize reflections, we recommend placing the H3-VR as far from walls and the floor as possible when recording". So, yea, a car recording is tough.

Now with all of that said, I’m actually very happy with how this recording turned out. I spent a good hour taking a few samples and going back-and-forth with the recording method and namely mic sensitivity to make sure I wound up with a result that conveyed what I actually hear but without being noisy and saturated. This checks those boxes quite well based on what I’m hearing through the playback of the recording versus what I hear as I sit in the seat it was recorded from. I do wish I had the funds to do a proper dummy head but after talking with a couple guys on a binaural Facebook group, they seem to share the same concerns that I’ve had with their own set ups. So it seems nothing is perfect. A fellow who does similar testing but with binaurals has noise issues with his mics as well. Someone on diyA also suggested ORTF but I'm not sure I see that being any better. Maye it would provide a benefit in the car but as good as this home theater recording turned out, I'm inclined to stop spending money and go with the Zoom H3 as my recording device.

Edit: Found this about ORTF from a producer:
"As an aside, I have recorded several live concerts using an ORTF configuration in as space very close to the space of the mannequin head (bit taking care to be above it or below it so as to not be influenced by the shadow of the head) and the differences range from enormous to significant, but this depoends upon many factors including the volumke (in cubic meters) of the hall, its acoustics, source material, etc) but never is the ORTF version, whien listened to over headphones, never is it anywhere near as realistic as the binaural version."


Also, I did give these _heavy_ consideration. I have literally had these guys' products in my safari browser since July 2018 (I remember looking at them the day I did the 2018 SVR SQology podcast). But, I just can't bring myself to spend $700+ on this. And I'm not sure it would really be any better than what I already have now. 


B1-E Dummy Head with BE-P1 Binaural Microphones + XLR Adapter – Binaural Enthusiast


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Before this goes down in to the rabbit hole (as I am always guilty of), I have to reel this back in and remember _my_ goal with these recordings: to provide a sense of what a speaker is capable of in a somewhat typical listening space.

The objective data will show what the speaker does anechoically. The recording(s) are intended to show the listener how the speakers behave in my room for comparison purposes against other setups. For example, cases where directivity is high vs low (minimal interaction vs lots of room interaction). It will never replace someone listening to the speakers in their own home. That should be a given. And this will all be in my own room which, again, is not the same listening space others use. If anything this is just a "for fun". And I can't justify a lot of money "for fun".

I feel pretty good about how this H3 works and think it will be as good a solution as I can find short of spending a lot of money on a production quality rig. I'm not 100% set on it just yet. But I'd say I'm 90% sure this is what will be implemented in my test tool kit.

If I were more concerned with just getting the speaker itself then I would probably do testing in mono, per Toole's writings.


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

ErinH said:


> Before this goes down in to the rabbit hole (as I am always guilty of), I have to reel this back in and remember _*my*_* goal with these recordings: to provide a sense of what a speaker is capable of in a somewhat typical listening space.*
> 
> The objective data will show what the speaker does anechoically. The recording(s) are intended to show the listener how the speakers behave in my room for comparison purposes against other setups. For example, cases where directivity is high vs low (minimal interaction vs lots of room interaction). It will never replace someone listening to the speakers in their own home. That should be a given. And this will all be in my own room which, again, is not the same listening space others use. If anything this is just a "for fun". And I can't justify a lot of money "for fun".
> 
> ...


Cool, Erin, I get it. I think I understand your M.O. better now. It seems that your techinque will concentrate more on the "sound of the room" and how particular speaker designs interact with and sounds "in that room" to find out what works best for a desired result. I understood this better upon listening to your second test recording in your home theatre setup. It's all about the bas....uh, I mean "room interaction". It's great that you have a dedicated listening space and playback setup for consistency.  And Layla (sp?) was an awesome addition. ?

*EDIT: I moved my "In-Car Recording" topic with Downloadable Sample File to a new thread HERE.

Erin, feel free to cleanup whatever else you'd like to here! I won't be too butthurt. *

SIDE NOTE:

Erin, regarding my suggestion of the ORTF setup, I wasn't really thinking "binaural recording" exclusively at the time, sorry. A binaural "head" apparatus such as Neumann's "Fritz" would absolutely be better. ORTF can work extremely well for traditional stereo recording, but still depends a lot on the source(s) and the room...and their interaction.

I don't know why I didn't realize sooner that you are focusing exclusively on Binaural Capture (I think!?). Obviously this will restrict listeners to headphone listening for accurate playback and evaluation. But, I "got it" now, LOL.

Regarding the Producer's comments on ORTF, you certainly can't place an ORTF (or any other unique mic setup) in the same position as a Neumann "Fritz" or other specialized binaural head microphone apparatus and expect better or even remotely the same results. Each mic technique requires vastly different positioning, and often some specialized post processing.

A Blumlein mic setup would most likely produce much better results, but still would require completely different placement, and is more suited to reproducing the natural soundstage and room ambience over loudspeakers, not headphones.

With all of these different types of microphones AND mic'ing techniques, we need to keep in mind that each type of mic has vastly different polar pick-up patterns. Each setup will require unique placement and consideration for the room AND the source(s), in addition to the relationship between them.

Just some more filler for thought, ha.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Re: Recording 

Since you mentioned the Neumann head I thought you might find this interesting.

A fellow on another forum told me this 
“I have used these before: 3Dio: Professional Binaural Microphones the cheaper version and the Neumann head (really expensive!) when I was recording professionally. But I found the Soundprofessionals mics to record the most realistic binaural audio I have heard.”


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

ErinH said:


> Re: Recording
> 
> Since you mentioned the Neumann head I thought you might find this interesting.
> 
> ...


THANKS!

You might want to talk with Justin Zazzi about his recording setup. He uses something similar to a Jecklin Disc microphone setup, but it's a modified DIY thingy...can't remember the name of it. I'll post a link if I find it.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Yea, I built a jecklin disc setup a few years back. The binaural setup (with me using binaural phones and sitting in the MLP) was much better, IMHO, so I stopped there.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Anyway, I don't want to derail this in to a binaural thread. You've got some really good info on this topic which is appreciated. I think there's some great info here so I can split it off if you want me to and we can keep it going elsewhere. But I wanna try to wrangle this sucker back in before we go any further off the tracks. LOL


----------



## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

bbfoto said:


> ??
> 
> I assume you have the new DATS v3? A CLIO rig would be nice as well.
> 
> ...


I went to check those drivers - specs on the paper are impressive


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

LBaudio said:


> I went to check those drivers - specs on the paper are impressive


Yeah Lojze, they do! But let's keep that discussion in that Purifi thread please. I've already derailed Erin's thread too much with "off topic" info.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I finally got started on the site. Have only had time to get one of my old reviews brought over to the new site so far. It’s gonna take a while to get all the others moved but it’s a start. ?
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/drive…/kef-q100-drive-unit/

Major thanks to Robert McIntosh for helping me understand an entirely new format.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

After wavering a bit on what to use for measurement hardware/software, I leaning hard toward going back to using Klippel products. I plan to do what I did before which was provide standard data such as impedance, FR, Distortion, Compression, linear xmax, etc. The sweet thing is... this time I hope to be using a laser to more accurately measure T/S parameters and notably linear excursion; something too many manufacturers spec incorrectly. I am currently awaiting the final quote from Klippel, though I fear seeing the bill. LOL. I have toiled over creating a gofundme and as much as I hate to appear needy, in order to do what I think most people will want to see and what I think is most useful, I'm probably going to have to.

I have also started writing up scripts in Matlab using some of the data available here that I will use to create graphs in the way that I deem most useful (some of the Klippel default outputs in the past were not up to my standard). You can see a couple examples of what I'll be providing below (I used some loudspeaker data posted on another forum).


----------



## VegasStereo (Jan 22, 2020)

ErinH said:


> Many of you know that I used to do speaker/driver testing for a number of years for DIYMA before moving on to creating my own site (medleysmusings). I took the last couple years off due to personal reasons. But I'm gearing back up to do something big, at least for me. I’ve been itching to change things up and move my review format to YouTube and also expand out of raw driver testing and instead provide a wider range of information. So, that's what I'm doing.
> 
> 
> The core of my efforts will focus on product reviews and tutorials (i.e., how to use a DSP, how to tune, what to listen for, etc) along with some other miscellaneous things. I will continue to provide objective data when I can/where it makes sense and I plan to do that as a supplement to the YouTube format; providing the data via a new website. I have a long list of ideas that I’ve collected over years. I think I have a few ideas for my reviews you all will really dig.
> ...


Subscribed
?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

More progress. Starting to take shape. Trying to get reviews up and also get the template stuff squared away. But slowly checking items off the list. Let LS50 test was ported over tonight.





Erin's Audio Corner


The Sound of Science




erinsaudiocorner.com


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Erin's Audio Corner


The Sound of Science




www.erinsaudiocorner.com


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I just ported over 3 reviews from the old site:
Scanspeak 12m Midrange
HAT L1-Pro R2 Ring Radiator Tweeter
Tectonics 2" BMR Speaker

Links below. Enjoy!






ScanSpeak Revelator 12M/4631-G00 4.5″ Midrange Driver Review


ScanSpeak Revelator 12M/4631-G00 4.5″ Midrange Driver




www.erinsaudiocorner.com










Hyrbrid Audio Technologies L1-Pro-R2 Ring Radiator Driver Review


Hyrbrid Audio Technologies L1-Pro-R2 Ring Radiator Driver




www.erinsaudiocorner.com










Tectonic Elements TEBM35C10-4 Miniature BMR® Driver Review


Tectonic Elements TEBM35C10-4 Miniature BMR® Driver




www.erinsaudiocorner.com


----------



## CDT FAN (Jul 25, 2012)

Thank you. I checked out your site and saw that you have the KEF Q100 driver review on there. Coincidentally, I just bought a set to try out in my car. Hopefully, I can get the drivers out of the cabinets without damaging anything.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Where do you plan on installing them? The motors are huge on those so I'm guessing the kicks, unless you have a lot of empty space somewhere on the dash. I had the r-series driver in my pillar and it barely fit even with all the "dead" space I had in the little window pocket area.


----------



## CDT FAN (Jul 25, 2012)

I am not sure yet. Either in the kick panels on axis or make pods on the front of the dash. It's an older car that I won't have to worry about reselling, so I don't have to worry about cutting it up to make room for some baffles and maybe see how they work in infinite baffle.. I may cut into the dash a little to make room for the motor assemblies. They don't need to operate down to the bass frequencies because I already have mid-bass in the doors. I think that will give me room to play with the tuning. I'll admit that I don't have the same skill or knowledge level as a lot of you guys, but I enjoy experimenting.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

JL ZR800-CW 8" midbass data posted. Though it's been discontinued, it's still a great dedicated midbass and worthy of sharing the data so people know what made it such a good choice for midbass.





JL Audio ZR800-CW 8″ Midbass Review


JL Audio ZR800-CW 8″ Midbass




www.erinsaudiocorner.com






Gladen Aerospace 28mm tweeter review. Quite a stellar tweeter that I hardly, if ever, see talk about.





Gladen Aerospace 28 Tweeter Review


Gladen Aerospace 28 Tweeter




www.erinsaudiocorner.com






Gladen Aerospace 20mm, small format tweeter. Incredible performance. 





Gladen Aerospace 20 Tweeter Review


Gladen Aerospace 28 Tweeter




www.erinsaudiocorner.com






Okay, I'm done for the night. Scan 1" Illuminator (D3004/602000) dome tweeter. Enjoy!





Scan-Speak Illuminator D3004/602000 Tweeter


Scan-Speak Illuminator D3004/602000 Tweeter




www.erinsaudiocorner.com


----------



## FlyingEagle (Sep 22, 2017)

Sub'd. 1 month and more than half your intended minimum subscribers to start it off. Bravo! Carry on ...


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

JL Audio C5-400cm 4 inch midrange review.





JL Audio C5-400cm 4-inch Midrange Review


JL Audio C5-400cm 4-inch Midrange




www.erinsaudiocorner.com





ScanSpeak Illuminator 12MU/4731T-00





ScanSpeak Illuminator 12MU/4731T-00


Scan Speak Illuminator 12MU/4731T-00




www.erinsaudiocorner.com





Seas W18NX-001 Review





Seas W18NX-001


Seas W18NX-001




www.erinsaudiocorner.com


----------



## ambesolman (Feb 5, 2018)

Subbed! And thanks for all the hard work. I’d love to see the illusion audio c3cx reviewed if you haven’t already. Hope to have these in my dash soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk?


----------



## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

Subbed! Thanks, Erin. This is awesome. If you could review the SB29RDNC-C000-4 that would be great as I likely will install it soon. Thanks again!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

For those who aren't part of the Facebook group or YouTube pages I've started in tandem with my website, I thought you might like to see this video. It gives you some insight in to my background, why I'm testing and why 80's music is my love.


----------



## VegasStereo (Jan 22, 2020)

ErinH said:


> For those who aren't part of the Facebook group or YouTube pages I've started in tandem with my website, I thought you might like to see this video. It gives you some insight in to my background, why I'm testing and why 80's music is my love.


Been sub'd now for a few days. Great reviews. ?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

VegasStereo said:


> Been sub'd now for a few days. Great reviews. ?



Thanks, man.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

I have unused Stereo Integrity M3 midranges to send for testing if your interested.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I'm not testing just yet. I have talked to Nick about getting some of his stuff to test, though. So I think I'm good there. I appreciate the offer, though.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

As many of you probably know by now, I run a review/test site. I've been posting about it a bit over in my thread (here). I quit testing for a number of years but recently started back again. I used to use Klippel products for my tests so I reached out to them again. 

Well, I got a quote from them this morning. As expected, however, it’s not cheap. Regardless, I’m moving forward and will be sending payment shortly. But I would really appreciate any donations from the community that I can get to help me offset those costs and, namely, to help fund some of the other things I would like to purchase to help me make my testing more efficient and accurate.

If you don’t mind helping out, you can use the link below to contribute to via PayPal (they take 3%, I’m OK with that):



https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/contribute/





If you don’t care about the rest of the details then there’s no need to read any further. However, if you’re interested in what your donations would be going toward, keep on reading…

I want to provide as much accurate information as I can about drive units, speakers and whatever miscellaneous ‘tasks’ I take on. IMHO, Klippel products will provide far more depth of knowledge than anything else and that’s why I’ve chosen their product(s). But I also want to keep my hobby/family balance. Testing takes up a good deal of time; but it's not so much the "test" as it is the setup/takedown time: cutting baffles, setting up the measurement rigs, getting the cabling out and running all the wires, fixing the driver/speaker to the test stand, and then writing up the report. In the time it takes to get prepped for a test I can complete another test cycle.

To help with accuracy and efficiency, I also hope to build a dedicated "test" space in my attic. I have about 11x17 feet that I'll need to floor, wall, and insulate to make it a test room. The reasons this is important to me are:
1) Scientifically speaking, the space would be large enough to push the first reflection out another 1 or 2 milliseconds which may not sound like much but is another 200hz or so of accuracy in my measurements. 200hz is a lot when you're expanding that over multiple octaves.
2) It gives me a fully repeatable environment to work within whereas my garage is a state of constant flux with temperature, humidity and ... stuff. Having a dedicated area means that the ambient conditions are within reason throughout the year but also it means that I won't have to spend hours setting up gear and taking it down to complete a couple tests which would help me complete more tests over time.
3) If I were to go this route I could also build an ‘infinite’ baffle to help with drive-unit testing.

Another thing that would help immensely is a small, tabletop, CNC. For raw driver testing I use a large baffle which has a cut-out for inserting smaller baffles. These smaller baffles are the pieces that the raw drivers are attached to. In my previous years of testing I didn't have the ability to surface mount complex drivers or oversized flange drivers. This was a detriment to my results (I always noted when that was the case). Surface mounting is the proper way to test drivers. I do own a router but the time it takes to cut flush-mount surfaces for some drivers … well, it adds up over time. Therefore, I would also like to purchase a small, table-top CNC router so I can cut my baffles to the exact dimensions needed for a driver cut-out. I've got my eye on an item that is just large enough to cut the baffle templates I need.

The third thing is having an automated turntable for polar measurements (on/off-axis frequency response). Now, I can build one from wood … I’ve done it before. But it’s a manual turning system which consists of: measure speaker, go turn speaker, measure speaker, go turn speaker… doing that in 5 to 10 degree increments over 90 to 180 degrees takes time. So, it would be really nice to use one that’s automated and works with the Klippel where I could click the run button and let it measure and rotate automatically. Again, this helps with repeatability and accuracy. But these are not cheap, either. I’ve gotten a couple quotes back > $3k. So, this is probably more of a pipedream at this point.

Obviously I wouldn’t be doing this if I didn’t enjoy it and feel like I’m learning from it as well so I’m not about to cry “woe, is me” here. But presenting data to the masses requires an extra level of accuracy and robustness that throwing together a simple test setup in my spare bedroom and caveating to the nth degree cannot provide; I know this from experience. So anything you can donate to help me with that would really and truly be appreciated.

Thanks again,
- Erin


----------



## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Is there not a Chinese knockoff, like a Kleppel? My Sany DVD player is boss.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

FWIW, this is a list of everything I got:

1 DA2 - Distortion Analyzer 2
Item No.: 2000-002 processor unit for all modules (incl. cable set) Refurbished unit Revision 2.1

2 LPM - Linear Parameter Measurement 
Item No.: 1000-400 identification of linear electrical and mechanical parameters

3 LSI Woofer + Box - Large Signal Identification Woofer + Box for DA2 
Item No.: 1000-230 identification of linear, nonlinear and thermal parameters of woofer drivers in free air, sealed and vented enclosures

4 LSI Tweeter - Large Signal Identification Tweeter for DA2 
Item No.: 1000-220 identification of linear, nonlinear and thermal parameters of tweeters, micro speakers, compression drivers in free air

5 TRF Pro - Transfer Function Measurement Professional 
Item No.: 1000-910 measurement of transfer function, harmonic distortion and rub & buzz

6 DIS Pro - 3D Distortion Measurement Professional 
Item No.: 1000-810 DIS features + measurement of HI2 and amplitude intermodulation distortion

7 TBM - Tone Burst Measurement 
Item No.: 1001-109 peak SPL measurements using tone burst signals (CEA2010)

8 PWT Pro - Power Test Professional 
Item No.: 1000-700 power testing with temperature measurement and transducer identification

9 Pro Driver Stand
Item No.: 2211-002 transducer fixture with laser and microphone positioning (incl. laser calibration spacer), Rev. 1.5

10 Laser Set ANR 1282 
Item No.: 2102-010 +/- 20mm, for woofer + midrange (incl. Controller ANR 5132)

11 Mic 17 IEPE 1/4" 
Item No.: 2400-103

12 Cable; BNC - BNC, 2m 
Item No.: 2300-106 Microphone cable, BNC male to BNC male, 2m, low capacitance coaxial cable type, blue

13 Mic Holder; MK10, for 1/2" Mics, fixed 
Item No.: 2400-206 fixed Mic Holder for 1/2" mics, made of plastic, 1/4" mounting thread

14 Manufacturer Calibration DA, PA, PM8 
Item No.: 6000-001 DA, PM8 or PA calibration with formal certificate, recommended every 2 years


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

The one thing I'm excited to have is the Pro Test Stand. It has connection points for the mic and laser and will fit various size drive units.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

And since I know I'll be asked at some point what this stuff costs, here's the price list.
https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/kl...em/PDF/KLIPPEL_Analyzer_System_Price-List.pdf

Some of the things I purchased aren't on the price list as they have since been updated so you would have to get a quote. My contact at Klippel was able to locate me a couple used parts to help me pad my costs a little. But FWIW, overall list price is ~$45,000 USD (41k EUR) for everything. So, yea....  :/


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

ErinH said:


> The one thing I'm excited to have is the Pro Test Stand. It has connection points for the mic and laser and will fit various size drive units.


That’s pretty sweet, but wouldn’t something with a baffle provide much more “real world” results?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

gijoe said:


> That’s pretty sweet, but wouldn’t something with a baffle provide much more “real world” results?


This is used for getting T/S parameters and namely linear xmax. Not for Frequency Response related measurements. A baffle will be used for FR measurements of drive-units like I've always done. I edited my post. Don't want to confuse anyone.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ErinH said:


> And since I know I'll be asked at some point what this stuff costs, here's the price list.
> https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/kl...em/PDF/KLIPPEL_Analyzer_System_Price-List.pdf
> 
> Some of the things I purchased aren't on the price list as they have since been updated so you would have to get a quote. But overall list price is ~$45,000 USD (41k EUR) for everything. So, yea....  :/


Jesus ****.. are uh, you sure about this? Lol

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> Jesus ****.. are uh, you sure about this? Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Well, my contact at Klippel was able to locate me a couple used parts to help me pad my costs a little. I won't get in to my exact costs because, frankly, that's not information I want out on the internet. But people always ask what the stuff costs so you have the list price to tell you.


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Holy crap, I guess Warkwyn has some serious competition now, LOL! 

And I thought that you weren't going to concentrate on doing driver testing.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> Holy crap, I guess Warkwyn has some serious competition now, LOL!
> 
> And I thought that you weren't going to concentrate on doing driver testing.


Haha.
Well, Warkwyn sells a service. I just test and review and share the results with everyone. So really different ends of the spectrum.

The Klippel will be used for loudspeaker and driver testing. I really wanted to do loudspeaker reviews like I did this subwoofer review:





Rythmik Audio F12G Direct Servo Subwoofer In-Depth Review


Rythmik Audio F12G Direct Servo Subwoofer In-Depth Review




erinsaudiocorner.com





I did that review nearly 7 years ago and, if I can brag on myself, I have yet to see someone offer as comprehensive a review yet.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Forgot to post this link here…








Updated Time Alignment Calculator and explanation video


I recently updated my site to include the Time Delay calculator previously on tracerite.com and added both Temperature and Humidity inputs so you can get time delay values with ambient conditions. In order to kick that off I made a short(ish) video on Time Alignment, what it is and how to use it...




www.diymobileaudio.com






I updated my Time Alignment site. It now includes the ability to correct for Temperature and Humidity. I also included a short video on what time alignment is and also how to use the calculator (with an explanation on what the various options are such as “crossover method”, “moving the stage”, etc.

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/timedelaycalc/



The site is currently set up for standard units. But you can easily use google to convert between that and metric if needed.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Also, JHuston was nice enough to start a gofundme for the Klippel fees and Nick shared the post here. If you guys can help out, it would definitely be appreciated. But if you cannot, that's understandable. 









Help Our Very Own ErinH Help You


Alright, getting right to the point here. We all know Erin. We all know he is a bad ass mo-fo who is largely responsible for keeping this place as good as it was while it was. We all know he is a bit weird sometimes and likes to wear wigs in his car. But most importantly we all know that he is...




www.diymobileaudio.com


----------



## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Being relatively new to the hobby, I'm not very familiar with Erin, but I have used his time alignment calculator and I'm sure the info he provides will be beneficial to EVERYONE at some point.

So please accept my $50 donation to help cover some of the crazy costs involved with everything that you have done and are going to do (that new equipment is NOT cheap!!).  I know it's not a lot, but I'm sure that every lit bit helps. 

Thanks Erin. Look forward to seeing you around on the forums as I continue to learn about this hobby.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Dude, that helps a lot! Thanks!


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Posted the review of the Audiofrog GB15 to my site.






Audiofrog GB15 1.5 inch Dome Tweeter


Audiofrog GB15




www.erinsaudiocorner.com







https://erinsaudiocorner.com/images/Reviews/Drivers/Audiofrog/GB15/IMG_2215.jpg


----------



## Lex_audio (Jul 19, 2019)

***
Hello Erin!
My name is Oleg! I'm from Russia! I have been following your posts for a very long time!  What you do is wonderful! I think you yourself do not realize how important and interesting information you provide to us! Many thanks! I read all your driver tests! Objective inormation is very useful. However, I would like to have a little more expressed their opinion about the device under test! That is, subjectively! It is your opinion!
Good luck to you!
Oleg
PS... Please forgive my English!


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I appreciate the kind words and feedback. 


I have had people ask me for subjective opinions in the past. It's incredibly hard to give subjective impressions on just a tweeter, or just a midrange or just a midbass. You need it playing as part of a system. Plus, with all the different ways something can be used (i.e.,crossover at 3khz vs 5khz for another person) the value of a subjective opinion is pretty meaningless. The data is meant to tell you a good operating range for a driver. I don't see the need in messing that up with my subjective opinions that may or may not be at all useful to someone else's application.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Baffle wall construction for drive unit testing has begun. In lieu of using a portable test rig like before, I decided to do something different. I made a 14.5”x13” cutout between my garage partition. Like others do, I’ll use swappable inserts for each new driver tested. Driver hole cut out on insert, attach insert to wall, test, remove insert. Done. And when not in use a painted blank will be placed back over the wall so I don’t have to have a window between sides.  This will be large enough for 12 inch drive units to be tested. I figure anything larger than that and I'm not really worried about frequency response since it's more than likely a subwoofer and frequency response in to the mid 100's won't really matter at all.

The wall itself is about 17ft x 10ft. The center of the DUTs (devices under test) will be placed about 5 ft off the floor and about midway on the wall. With the garage door down, this puts the first path length of reflection at about 5 ft. Which is good enough to keep the first null above about 225hz. For testing this is actually quite good. Most people’s test setups are closer to 3 ft; 330hz. The further the distance the better. And thanks to the very large baffle there will be no diffraction effects to remedy once I’ve merged nearfield and farfield responses.

Blah, blah, blah... what this all means is I’ll have highly repeatable and accurate testing on as good a setup a dude testing drive units at his house could hope for.

PS: If you don’t hear from me again after this post, tell the cops my wife is responsible.


----------



## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Nice!


----------



## Lex_audio (Jul 19, 2019)

[QUOTE = "ErinH, должность: 5801796, участник: 1891"]
Я ценю добрые слова и отзывы. 


У меня были люди спрашивают меня о субъективных мнениях в прошлом. Невероятно сложно давать субъективные впечатления только на твитере, или на среднем, или на мидбасе. Вы должны играть как часть системы. Кроме того, при всех различных способах использования чего-либо (например, кроссовер в 3 кГц против 5 кГц для другого человека) ценность субъективного мнения довольно бессмысленна. Данные предназначены, чтобы сказать вам хороший рабочий диапазон для водителя. Я не вижу необходимости смешивать это с моими субъективными мнениями, которые могут или не могут быть вообще полезны для чужого применения.
[/ QUOTE]
***I heard you! You are probably right!


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Made some updates to the website. Added a logo. Changed the theme colors. I like it more now.

I also opened up a little Spreadshirt store where I posted some shirts for sale if any of you guys have an extra $20 burning a hole in your pocket and you want to nerd out and support the page. 


https://shop.spreadshirt.com/erins-audio-corner/men?q=D1


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Klippel unboxing video is up!


----------



## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Thanks for the video but I think it could have been 5 min shorter if it wasn’t for that knife. That has got to be the dullest razor knife ever. Next time you are at HD, pick up a Milwaukee folding razor knife. Bonus it strips wire. 

Owning a Klippel. So incredibly cool.


----------



## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Man, tough crowd here (regarding the dull utility knife!).  I saw a similar comment on the "other" forum. 

You do have to be careful when opening stuff - so that you don't cut the actual product _inside_ the package while trying to open the package.

I'm going to say that Erin was just using an "abundance of caution" (my new catch-phrase as a result of all of the COVID-19 coverage) - and just assume that he was just being careful not to damage any of the package contents and that it wasn't really a dull blade. 

Oh yeah - and the equipment looks awesome! I can tell that Erin is like a kid in a candy store right now!!


----------



## Blu (Nov 3, 2008)

Thanks for sharing Erin, it must have felt like Christmas came early as you were unboxing all of that Klippel sweetness!

Also... Rosie is adorable!!!!


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

jtrosky said:


> Man, tough crowd here (regarding the dull utility knife!).  I saw a similar comment on the "other" forum.
> 
> You do have to be careful when opening stuff - so that you don't cut the actual product _inside_ the package while trying to open the package.
> 
> I'm going to say that Erin was just using an "abundance of caution" (my new catch-phrase as a result of all of the COVID-19 coverage) - and just assume that he was just being careful not to damage any of the package contents and that it wasn't really a dull blade.


Indeed. You'll even notice I said specifically that I didn't want to cut too deep since I didn't know what was inside one of the packages:


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Blu said:


> Also... Rosie is adorable!!!!


She's an awesome pup! Definitely my buddy. I'm pretty sure I'm her favorite, though my wife and kid might disagree. lol


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

https://shop.spreadshirt.com/erins-audio-corner/music+add-A5e9745f21cbf3a302c428cd6?productType=812&sellable=N0rQ9xxwyNI9B0N25Yxb-812-7&appearance=1



For as long as I can remember, I've joked that I have "Music A.D.D." because I can only get through a few seconds of a song before feeling the urge to go to the next one; no matter how much I like it.

Today I made it in to a fun t-shirt design and posted it to my Spreadshirt store. If any of you folks have the "skipping songs within 10 seconds" affliction and want join me in wearing it proudly (pun intended) please use the link below and pick what you want. Plus, I get a few bucks off each shirt's sale which I can use to help pay for review-related stuff.

... and, no, not mothers against drunk driving. Hopefully the MTV logo made that distinction.


----------



## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Mothers Against Drunk Driving are going to sue you! ;-)


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Just an update...

I purchased a mic stand over a month ago. After 2 shipping issues, I finally got the 3rd one and it was good to go. I also ordered some speaker stands and planned to use one for speaker testing. But after doing some testing I realized that was a no go. The stand was a bit shaky at above 6 feet. Plus, I wanted something a bit easier for takedown and set up. So I cannibalized my basketball goal (I need a new one anyway







). I buried the pole about 2 feet in the ground and rigged up a platform from HDPE and Plywood (to be sealed soon). The platform can also be swapped out to accommodate larger speakers (floorstanders laid on their side to capture vertical response). The pole is very sturdy and can be removed from the ground and placed in my storage area between tests.

The speaker stand is now at 8.5 feet off the ground and 9 feet away from the patio cover. Nearly everything I test will be reflection free to 9 feet. Which puts the first reflection at about 12 ms; or about 80hz. Doubling that means good resolution above 160hz. That’s good. _Real_ good. More than adequate when you consider I will be using a ground-plane measurement for LF response and "stitch" that to the FF measurement. As for external noise; I live in out in the country. So it's mostly quiet. The software/hardware is smart enough to ignore most noises and multiple sweeps will help keep them from sneaking in to my measurements. IOW, I don't have any concerns here.

I tested hoisting up a 50# bag of sand. That wasn't easy. But was do-able. I'm gonna need a crane, though, if I ever test a floorstander that has significant weight to it. But I'll burn that bridge when I get there.  

Here's a few pictures with my 6 foot ladder and myself as a reference. 

The last picture is of the mic stand. This sucker is a beast. Can be stood to almost 8 feet tall and the mic can reach higher when the boom is angled. 
Here's a link if anyone is wanting to see more info.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

FINALLY!!!!! I have finally completed my review of the Buchardt S400. I have spent countless hours... literally months worth of working through test methods and configurations, writing MATLAB scripts to post-process the data... it's been crazy. But now I have something to show for it.

Buchardt Audio S400 Bookshelf Speaker Review

One thing I have done differently from what I've seen is my polar spectrograms. We typically see spectrograms for a speaker "linearized" in to a rectangular shape. I was thinking, it would be neat to actually represent the data the way it comes from the speaker; in a 360° manner. Or occasionally we will see a polar plot with a single line representing a frequency, maybe with a few lines to represent multiple frequencies overlaid. But nothing that is really intuitive. So, I created these new polar plots for horizontal and vertical spl mapping of the speaker's radiation pattern both vertically and horizontally. Two versions of each. One is absolute output and the other is relative to the 0 degree axis. Not sure if anyone here will appreciate it as much as I am proud of it. And I'm sure someone will have something to say about how they prefer a different color or whatever... but dangit, I'm proud and I'm leaving it as is because it looks good to me. I think it's a better way of viewing the data. Some may not prefer it. But that's why I've offered the standard versions as well. Anyway, make sure to use the legend in the top left to get your bearings on the speaker direction relative to the radiation pattern.

I plan to make a video review but that's gonna be a bit. For now, this written review will have to do.

I hope you guys get as much out of this as I have put in to it. I need a friggin' break now...


----------



## naiku (May 28, 2008)

ErinH said:


> For as long as I can remember, I've joked that I have "Music A.D.D." because I can only get through a few seconds of a song before feeling the urge to go to the next one; no matter how much I like it.
> 
> Today I made it in to a fun t-shirt design


I'm exactly the same with songs, if it's one I like, my brain tells me maybe the next one will be better and so I skip it. Then skip another and another and end up not actually listening to anything. I'll have to pick up a shirt, although I can't find the link.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

naiku said:


> I'm exactly the same with songs, if it's one I like, my brain tells me maybe the next one will be better and so I skip it. Then skip another and another and end up not actually listening to anything. I'll have to pick up a shirt, although I can't find the link.


Yea, I see it's no longer there. I'll have to see why. Guessing the logo being the MTV knock-off got it taken down. But no big deal.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

ErinH said:


> FINALLY!!!!! I have finally completed my review of the Buchardt S400...
> ...
> Buchardt Audio S400 Bookshelf Speaker Review
> ...


Erin,
Can you say a few words as to how you come to select the SPL that you used for the music you played?
I think there is some general value in understanding that.


----------



## naiku (May 28, 2008)

ErinH said:


> Yea, I see it's no longer there. I'll have to see why. Guessing the logo being the MTV knock-off got it taken down. But no big deal.


Ah well, At least nice to know I'm not the only one who struggles to actually listen to an entire song.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Holmz said:


> Erin,
> Can you say a few words as to how you come to select the SPL that you used for the music you played?
> I think there is some general value in understanding that.


You mean why I chose the volume range I listen to? It’s just my typical listening volume.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

ErinH said:


> You mean why I chose the volume range I listen to? It’s just my typical listening volume.


Yeah, but more in the context of loudness... maybe even qualitatively how loud is it?
The numbers you posted jumped out at me... I thought, "yeah, I know what that is."
(In the Haus-Boss's car I am usually ~85-90, which is loud enough and it sounds bad after 90 dB anyhow)

There seems to be a lot of thought that people need systems that play at 105-110dB... but you numbers struck me very typical of what many people that listen critically use for an SPL.

Maybe a better question I should have asked is, "do often listen at higher SPL? And if so then how high is that?


----------



## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

My (nerdy) feedback on your evaluation of these speakers. 

I really liked the Forward - you may think about this as something you offer for all of your speaker write ups…..it is something I have struggled with as I’ve read the multiple posts on AV Forum and DIYMA…..the ‘show me the measurements’ crowd vs the ‘use your ears’ crowd. This was very useful for me as I prepare to evaluate what you wrote about the product. 

I really like the pictures as well - great way to see the product - especially with the spinning view. If you do additional bookshelf speakers, it may be useful to have a stand - to show relative size / aesthetic on a stand, but may not be worth the investment. 

I have always loved your way of writing - comfortable and smart - excellent way of communicating technical information but keeping the interest of the reader. Hard decision - write it so a 15 yr old person could understand everything or write it so only a ‘Floyd Toole’ could understand it - you have struck a very good center point that was very helpful for me - a non-technical, but very interested reader. 

Excellent explanation of the graphs, etc. Being non-technical, a little on normalization may have been helpful, but likely not needed for most who read this. Of course, I really enjoyed the subjective portion - list of songs, notes prior to the measurements, and then correlation of what you heard to the objective data. Added bonus….was the Dirac part - one of the things I have thought about, but I haven’t made up my mind…….am I a purist who wants my single 1st order crossover 2-way bookshelf…..or do I want a tool to ‘fix’ issues with the room without the use of a tremendous amount of treatments. It was helpful as well to show that some EQ can enhance the overall experience without being detrimental to your goals. 

I also thought it was the perfect length…..there is a lot of substance - with good links to more info if the reader wants / needs it - something to explore upon a 2nd / 3rd reading, but one can get through the entire write up in one sitting. Great job my friend! I have a better understanding of the method, the product, and what I could expect to experience if I purchased a pair of these speakers.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Thanks for the feedback and kind words, Jason.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I ordered this speaker last week in hopes that it would be a diamond in the rough and that if it were, people might be interested enough to buy it through my Amazon affiliate link and I could use that money to get some real cool speakers to test. Well, that isn't gonna happen. You can read my review in the link below:
Jamo Audio S807 Floorstanding Speaker Review


Some highlights (or lowlights, really):


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Bayboy is going to find you and take you down for this one..

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> Bayboy is going to find you and take you down for this one..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


LOL. He won't be the only one. I saw other reviewers giving these 4/5 stars. I question anyone's hearing who would recommend these speakers. My ears told me they were terrible. My measurements (made after listening) confirmed it.


----------



## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Ever heard these?





S20 | Bookshelf Speakers | Polk Audio


Shop our bookshelf speaker collection to learn more about the S20 Bookshelf Speakers from the Signature Series. Expect Great Sound™.




www.polkaudio.com


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I've been busy. Posted a few video reviews of loudspeakers to my YT channel which you can watch if you're interested. 

But I know no one here seems to care about loudspeakers... everyone wants to know how far they can push a 3.5 inch midrange. Right? 

A forum member here is sending me a set of the AD W800NEO to test as well. So don't worry, I am still testing drivers. I've just been focusing more on loudspeakers because that's where my real interest lies. Since the W800NEO has received a lot of praise lately and the owner was nice enough to offer, I thought it worthwhile to see how the performance actually stacks up.

And in other news, Klippel released their new build along with some updated modules overnight. I am now using their latest Multitone Distortion module (MTON) with In-Situ Room Compensation (ISC) module to get _true_ distortion performance in the farfield. Why is this special? Because measuring in the nearfield reduces noisefloor (reflections, mainly) but it isn't far enough to get the true speaker summation of a multi-way speaker. Meaning, in the nearfield you are biased toward one speaker or another. It's an OK way to get performance but it's not as accurate as gathering the data in the farfield.

With MTON I am able to use an IEC or CEA-2010 standard to determine the maximum SPL It takes some time to set this up but having the ability to provide a real actual max SPL based on a real standard (rather than a method that everyone disagrees with and is not accepted) is worth it in the end. Here's some discussion on one standard: https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/klippel/Files/News/Electrical and Mechanical Measurements of Loudspeakers and Sound System Equipment.pdf

There are short signal max SPL versions as well as long-term max SPL (my favorite). There are, naturally, some caveats to the testing. Such as little bookshelf speakers are being sent 20-20kHz signal but I can alter that. I am currently re-running a test on the Neumi BS5 with an 80-20kHz signal and it's (obviously) able to take more voltage before it hits the max long-term SPL than it can with a 20-20k signal. So, I may wind up performing a dual-test in these cases. But we will see.

Either way, it took some time for Klippel to deliver the latest update but I am on top of it and already getting some excellent information from the modules.

I just made this short video to give you an idea of what these modules allow me to do.

First... Turn down your volume! I play a multitone signal twice in this video and it’s gonna be pretty loud.


----------



## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

ErinH said:


> I've been busy. Posted a few video reviews of loudspeakers to my YT channel which you can watch if you're interested.
> 
> But I know no one here seems to care about loudspeakers... everyone wants to know how far they can push a 3.5 inch midrange. Right?
> 
> ...


Awesome! I am really wondering about the linear Xmax on that W800Neo, and I know I'm not the only one. That's quite an expensive pair of 8's if it doesn't measure up to the manufacturer's claims (19 mm Xmax), but if it does measure up, maybe it's worth the price.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

ckirocz28 said:


> Awesome! I am really wondering about the linear Xmax on that W800Neo, and I know I'm not the only one. That's quite an expensive pair of 8's if it doesn't measure up to the manufacturer's claims (19 mm Xmax), but if it does measure up, maybe it's worth the price.


I haven't looked in a while, but I am almost 100% certain it is physically impossible for the W800 Neo to have 19mm of one way Xmax. Certain enough that I would be willing to place a significant wager with anyone who thinks otherwise. 

Looking at the drivers and the spec sheet, I wouldn't be surprised if that 19mm figure was a 2-way number (9.5mm of Xmax is still at the top of top tier performance). It might even be a 2-way Xmech number, considering how shallow the driver is. I'm certainly looking forward to Erin's test so we can find out. 

Regardless, based on my own listening experience, the W800Neos are excellent drivers. Even if the Italians do get a little funny with their spec sheets.


----------



## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

rton20s said:


> I haven't looked in a while, but I am almost 100% certain it is physically impossible for the W800 Neo to have 19mm of one way Xmax. Certain enough that I would be willing to place a significant wager with anyone who thinks otherwise.
> 
> Looking at the drivers and the spec sheet, I wouldn't be surprised if that 19mm figure was a 2-way number (9.5mm of Xmax is still at the top of top tier performance). It might even be a 2-way Xmech number, considering how shallow the driver is. I'm certainly looking forward to Erin's test so we can find out.
> 
> Regardless, based on my own listening experience, the W800Neos are excellent drivers. Even if the Italians do get a little funny with their spec sheets.


If it's only a 2-way measurement, then they are damn expensive compared to their competition (AudioFrog, Stevens, etc.).

Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I don't know what they cost... what is retail on them?


----------



## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

ErinH said:


> I don't know what they cost... what is retail on them?


They used to be $900 a pair, it looks like they're down around 350-500 Euros, but I can't tell if those are single or pair prices (one site is German, the other Italian).

Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


----------



## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

I am guessing its a 2 way Xmax.
If they sound excellent the price is probably more bc of their sound, than their Xmax.
I had a chance to buy a used set cheap recently but was just too late.😣
But also calculated (Q 0.7) in a 21 liter closed box; 82hz was a bit too high for me.. bc I want to use them in kickpanels... and would like the 8" as low as possible. (And my enclosure would be less than 21 liters) Or do you all boost it with a dsp? 

Erin is that your BMX hanging on the wall? I still have mine from the 80's...
have great memories of that freestyling period 😊


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I tested the Philharmonic BMR speaker here. 





Philharmonic BMR Bookshelf Speaker Review


Philharmonic BMR Bookshelf Speaker Review




www.erinsaudiocorner.com


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Don Camillo said:


> Erin is that your BMX hanging on the wall? I still have mine from the 80's...
> have great memories of that freestyling period 😊


Yep! It's my buddy's prototype signature Hoffman BAMA frame from 2005. I haven't ridden hardly at all since 2006 because I had to quit due to back issues (had surgery in 2007). It still runs in my veins, though. I don't drive past a handrail or gap that I don't look at and think "man, I'd love to bomb that".


----------



## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

ErinH said:


> Yep! It's my buddy's prototype signature Hoffman BAMA frame from 2005. I haven't ridden hardly at all since 2006 because I had to quit due to back issues (had surgery in 2007). It still runs in my veins, though. I don't drive past a handrail or gap that I don't look at and think "man, I'd love to bomb that".


Nice!! Yeah its a joy to ride and play with it (feeling free and stuff)... I got wayyy to tall after puberty so cant ride it anymore unfortunately...


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Would be nice to get a pair of these in to listen to and test...







Mesanovic Microphones & Studio Monitors

.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Few more videos posted. Make sure to subscribe and hit the notifications bell so you will be alerted when I post more videos. 

Bose 901 speaker review:









Philharmonic BMR DIY speaker review:









And an upcoming driver test teaser of the Audio Development W800NEO.


----------



## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Is there a max size/weight limit for a speaker you can test? Ie: a subwoofer


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Enclosure subwoofer? Or drive unit? I can fit up to about 15 inch subs in the test stand. Larger probably. If you're talking enclosure subwoofers (like a powered sub you buy from crutchfield, etc) then the limits are within me toting it around.


----------



## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

ErinH said:


> . I haven't ridden hardly at all since 2006 because I had to quit due to back issues (had surgery in 2007). It still runs in my veins, though. I don't drive past a handrail or gap that I don't look at and think "man, I'd love to bomb that".


I remember the bmx video you posted many moons ago. 

Thanks for the reviews. I rather enjoy them.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

W800NEO review is done. Follow this thread:








Audio Development W800NEO Drive Unit Review


Full review here: https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/driveunits/audio_development_w800neo/ YT version:




www.diymobileaudio.com


----------



## DoubleCrown (Jun 26, 2019)

You could actually ride Erin. I’ll pay that. Have you considered a cruiser?
You could still do some rad skids at least


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

ErinH said:


> W800NEO review is done. Follow this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


5mm one way is more in line with everyone else’s take... at a push you could say they’d labelled it as xmech p-p or as you found 9.3mm one way due to compliance limit... but even then it’s a stretch as it says xmax... depends how they measured... but doing it a way that’s dissimilar to everyone else throws doubt on other stats 🙈 I’ll stick with my hybrid audio U69v2


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

dumdum said:


> 5mm one way is more in line with everyone else’s take... at a push you could say they’d labelled it as xmech p-p or as you found 9.3mm one way due to compliance limit... but even then it’s a stretch as it says xmax... depends how they measured... but doing it a way that’s dissimilar to everyone else throws doubt on other stats 🙈 I’ll stick with my hybrid audio U69v2


Deriding Audio Development for inaccurate Xmax claims and then lauding Hybrid as if they are a shining example of accuracy in the same category might not be the wisest of decisions. Hybrid claims 8.5mm Xmax on the L6SE and it was klippel tested by Erin and shown to be distortion limited to 3.2mm of Xmax.🤷‍♂️


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

rton20s said:


> Deriding Audio Development for inaccurate Xmax claims and then lauding Hybrid as if they are a shining example of accuracy in the same category might not be the wisest of decisions. Hybrid claims 8.5mm Xmax on the L6SE and it was klippel tested by Erin and shown to be distortion limited to 3.2mm of Xmax.🤷‍♂️


I’m not deriding anyone, merely explaining how they may have come to there conclusions... albeit incorrectly labelled

do you have a link to the L6se test... much prefer the L65 as a midbass 👍🏼 The u69 fits my space available though 👍🏼


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

dumdum said:


> I’m not deriding anyone, merely explaining how they may have come to there conclusions... albeit incorrectly labelled
> 
> do you have a link to the L6se test... much prefer the L65 as a midbass 👍🏼 The u69 fits my space available though 👍🏼


Hybrid Audio L6SE Klippel Testing


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

I thought it was interesting that Technics entered the concentric/coaxial driver game with their high-end $5,000 SB-G90 home tower speakers.

Technics SB-G90 Tower Speakers



















I don't know how you would be able to remove the individual drivers for testing with their unique cabinet design.

The literature does mention copper and aluminum shorting rings in the driver design.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Interesting.


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

ErinH said:


> Interesting.


Well, keep in mind that Technics is just a division of Panasonic, so there's that.  I've never been seriously impressed with anything from them except for their iconic SL-1200 series direct-drive turntables, of course.

And I haven't heard these speakers, and while I would expect them to sound "really good" to the general public, I wouldn't be surprised if they exhibited some objective and subjective performance issues.

There's really not much information in either regard out there that I could find, and that of course could be an indicator of performance, good or bad, haha.

I was just intrigued because they seem to have developed this proprietary MF/HF concentric driver just for their high-end line of loudspeakers.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Dyn MW172 review/discussion here:









Dyn Audio MW172 Midwoofer Review


Dyn MW172 Test/Review is complete. This is a car audio product by a well-regarded company. I have provided a brief version of the review below (tables removed, some photos not shown here for one thing) but the full review can be found here: Dyn Audio MW172 Drive Unit Review For those who would...




 www.diymobileaudio.com


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

When I decided to start testing again early this year my intent was to provide data through my website and use my YouTube page to provide a wrap-up of the reviews and explain the data. I didn’t know how it was going to pan out but I was hopeful it would work. So far, people seem to be quite receptive of this method.

Since most comments I get are in relation to the video reviews, I’m working hard to get my YouTube channel off the ground and gain more visibility in that outlet. There’s been a pretty steep learning curve but I have really been happy with the progress thus far and I am continuing to learn what works and what needs improvement not only in the videos but the subject matter as well.

My hope is that the channel will be a resource for consumers so they understand what they are getting and understand the importance of objective data and how it correlates with subjective listening impressions. Aside from that, however, I want it to be a means of accountability in the community. There are many YouTube “reviewers” who prey on their viewership by providing disingenuous reviews to make a few bucks off Amazon affiliate links or getting free gear in return for a positive review. There are manufacturers who have the means to provide us with specifications so we can make an informed purchase decision but they don’t do that. I want to use my platform to educate the consumer that we can and should expect more from reviewers and manufacturers. Unfortunately, I’m just a little fish in a big pond right now and I can’t achieve these goals without your help.

*If there is a video I've created that you think your friends might be interested in, please take the time to share it to your social media page, forums, etc. Or you can share the link to my channel below: *









Erin's Audio Corner


Welcome to my little corner of the internet. This is where you can find objective testing of a wide variety of audio gear with a dash of subjective feedback....




www.youtube.com





And let me be clear… as far as monetization goes, I am >2400 view-hours away from generating ad-based revenue. And, for that matter, I believe YT only pays 2 cents per view. So, there are no hopes or crazy dreams of me making this thing a means of income. I mean, enough views might buy me lunch now and again but that’s about it. This isn’t about money. I have a good paying day job that I enjoy. This is about passion. My love for audio. My love for understanding how it works. And my passion for educating us all (myself included; always learning) so we can be better informed. If it weren't, I wouldn't spend the 10+ hours it takes for me to complete a review. That said, if Mcintosh ever offers to send me an amplifier to test out you guys will never hear from me again because I will pack up the amp, my family, dog and swim trunks and fly straight to a coastal country that does not extradite to the US. 

So, please share with your friends if you think they'll be interested and let's see if we can't kick off something different in the audio community. Thanks again for your support.

- Erin


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

^THIS is exactly what the YouTube "Audio Reviewer" community needs!

I think that a lot of the general public are slowly becoming a bit smarter by actually buying and hearing these products, and then realizing that 99% of the "popular" YouTube audio product reviews are highly subjective "poetic wordsmithing", and are just an engine for the reviewers to obtain "audiophile notoriety" and/or free gear or discounts on gear.

I'm sure many of them are obviously passionate about music and audio, but so much of the subjective information is just worthless and a waste of time.

I believe that heaps of viewers will gladly welcome actual objective data that will provide a true "measuring stick" for the comparison of performance and quality of these products, and that they are interested in exactly what data or specs truly correlate to achieving good sound, or not.

There will always be audiophoolery, but I welcome the day when a lot of the audio myths and misinformation can be dispelled!

Thanks for being a true pioneer and pushing towards that goal.   

I believe your YouTube channel and web site will grow exponentially as the word gets out.

I'm trying to share your tests & reviews as much as possible on other popular YouTube channels.

Unfortunately, I'm not big on using many of the other social media platforms...I simply don't have the desire or time.

But I will continue to spread the word when & where I can.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

bbfoto said:


> ...
> There will always be audiophoolery, but I welcome the day when a lot of the audio *myths and misinformation can be dispelled!*
> ...


Well the flat earthers, young earthers, maskers antimaskers, peaceful Antifa, antivaxxers, the 5G afflicted, and others may take offence.


----------



## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

Love that you’re doing this, Erin. It reminds me a bit of the stuff on AudioScienceReview.com. Some objective data, correlated with subjective experience is much needed in the car audio world...even just reliable third party tested objective data is often lacking. 

I don’t know if you could do it, but I’m sure you’ve seen the DAC reviews by Amir in the home audio world. Something like this for DSPs (and why not head units?) would be so interesting to see. I feel like Amir’s reviews help push the industry and consumers win when that happens. I think you’re doing the same so thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Another speaker that is garbage yet gets tons of praise via the various YT “influencers”.

Slowly chipping away at their credibility...

If you don't mind, make sure to share the heck out of my video to every facet that you can. I'm trying to shake the review scene up; expose the salesmen who hock crap just so people will buy them through their affiliate links... but I can't do that without help.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> ^THIS is exactly what the YouTube "Audio Reviewer" community needs!
> 
> I think that a lot of the general public are slowly becoming a bit smarter by actually buying and hearing these products, and then realizing that 99% of the "popular" YouTube audio product reviews are highly subjective "poetic wordsmithing", and are just an engine for the reviewers to obtain "audiophile notoriety" and/or free gear or discounts on gear.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Billy. And I 100% agree with you. I appreciate the support, man!


----------



## DoubleCrown (Jun 26, 2019)

“When I decided to start testing again early this year”
Is this because Nick said you used to be cool when you tested?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

DoubleCrown said:


> “When I decided to start testing again early this year”
> Is this because Nick said you used to be cool when you tested?


who is Nick?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Review coming soon. Make sure to go hit the 'subscribe' and notifications button on my YT channel so you will be notified when it drops.








Erin's Audio Corner


Welcome to my little corner of the internet. This is where you can find objective testing of a wide variety of audio gear with a dash of subjective feedback....




www.youtube.com










PTT6.5X04-NFA-01 (PTT6.5W04-01) - PURIFI transducer loudspeaker


Negligible Force Factor Modulation and Surround Radiation Distortion Low Magnetic Hysteresis Distortion “Real” long-stroke performance: distortion remains low over full excursion Uncompromised midrange performance Designed and Manufactured in Denmark KEY SPECIFICATIONS Driver size 6.5” DC...




purifi-audio.com


----------



## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Dang, they’re worse than Dynaudio with the packaging messing up the surround.  I’m looking forward to this one with all of the new technology that supposedly went into it. Good stuff Erin. Thanks!


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

excited for this one!!!!


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

ErinH said:


> Review coming soon. Make sure to go hit the 'subscribe' and notifications button on my YT channel so you will be notified when it drops.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Holy ****. Look what this guy does to speaker surrounds during testing! And he blames mine on packaging???
. Just kidding. I hope...

Ge0


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Ge0 said:


> Holy ****. Look what this guy does to speaker surrounds during testing! And he blames mine on packaging???
> . Just kidding. I hope...
> 
> Ge0



I"m just glad you didn't pack them. Otherwise they'd have come with the box on the inside and the speaker stuck to the box on the outside.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Purifi Audio PTT6.5W04-01A 6.5 Inch Woofer Review


This just confirms what most of knew already based on HiFiCompass' review. This is a special drive unit. But, now we have some more and different data to give us more insight. Here's the link to my original review because some of the tables and such won't easily translate here: Purifi Audio...




www.diymobileaudio.com


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Moved to review thread.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

AudioFrog GB60 Review


https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/driveunits/audiofroggb60/




www.diymobileaudio.com













Dyn Audio MW182 8-Inch Woofer review


Dyn Audio MW182 8-Inch Woofer review is up! https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/driveunits/dyn_mw182/




www.diymobileaudio.com


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

About two weeks ago I decided I wanted to add IMD testing back in to my portfolio (I used to conduct IMD years back but quit when I no longer used Klippel products). I also figured while I was at it I would do my harmonic distortion and multitone testing a bit different. 

After _countless_ hours, I finally have completed and updated the first of my re-tests. I am sharing it here to see if you guys are cool with the GIFs I am using for HD and IMD. I also have readjusted my parameters for the maximum SPL testing; I used to test a much broader bandpass region so I was lax on the thresholds but now that I am testing a more typical bandpass region I have tightened the thresholds up (from 10% distortion to 3% distortion and from 3dB compression to 2dB compression).

Go check it out. LMK if the gifs are cool or if you'd rather have the still images. I prefer the gifs, myself. I don't really want to provide 6 images for HD and 6 more for IMD. The gifs make things simpler. If we are cool with it then I'll work on getting the other drivers' new data posted and I can finally get back on track with other tests. 


Dyn Audio MW172 8-Inch Mid/Woofer Review


And if you have no idea what IMD is, don't worry. I plan to make a video explaining this stuff so you will know what to look for. At least, as best I can.


----------



## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

I like it. Takes a bit to get bearings but I think it helps to be able to determine how the driver reaches its limits. I wouldn’t like multiple images per as it would be hard to visualize the differences between the output levels and would clutter up the review.

I also like the reduced passband as I personally didn’t perceive as much value from the larger bandwidth tests.

Love seeing the growth and maturation if your testing methodologies. 

Like I said previously, I think it would be phenomenal if you could setup a comparison table of drivers like Data-Bass has done with subwoofers. But it seems you might be headed that way. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

dgage said:


> I like it...
> ...
> 
> ..., I think it would be phenomenal if you could setup a comparison table of drivers like Data-Bass has done with subwoofers. But it seems you might be headed that way. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.


What DATA-Bass table?
Is there a link?


----------



## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements







data-bass.com





Click on Systems to see the output capability at different frequencies. They also have a small but very knowledgeable group of people on their forums related to subwoofers for home or professional use.


----------



## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

dgage said:


> I like it. Takes a bit to get bearings but I think it helps to be able to determine how the driver reaches its limits. I wouldn’t like multiple images per as it would be hard to visualize the differences between the output levels and would clutter up the review.
> 
> I also like the reduced passband as I personally didn’t perceive as much value from the larger bandwidth tests.
> 
> ...


YES. Totally agree on the comparison / ranking in different parameters (distortion, how linear the frequency response is, etc). A table that could be sorted by different parameters would achieve this. Would be very cool. Filter by desired passband, (maybe price at time of review?) see list of drivers that perform best regarding lowest distortion, frequency response..

Sweet 

Thanks, Erin!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I like what Data-bass has done. But I think that's easier because what they have is a limited bandwidth speaker (subwoofer) with just T/S. I am providing all sorts of stuff. I can provide T/S. But that doesn't really seem useful for a midrange. What you want there is senstivity, +/-1.5dB region and then distortion parameters (which can vary wildly from one frequency to the next). I'd have to think that through. It can be done. I just don't know what use it is for something that isn't a subwoofer and can be used any number of ways wrt bandpass regions.


----------



## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Wasn’t think T/S. More so the levels in the different bandpasses you’ve selected. You’ve essentially come up with a range more applicable to midbass use and another one for midrange use. Having the output ratings of these bandpasses would allow a person to easily compare speakers for their particular usage. It wouldn’t be the final decision point but would be a great piece of information to include when making a decision between two speakers you’ve tested.

But I want to be clear, you’re providing a hell of a lot of good information with what you’re doing now and it is very, very appreciated.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Alrighty. I have just updated the following reviews with the latest data. All now include HD, IMD and a revised Multitone distortion method. With the IMD testing please read how they were conducted. There are two methods. One is testing with the bass tone at 80Hz. The other is with the bass tone at Fs. So, if you want to compare apples to apples, you'll have to compare the one with the bass tone fixed at 80Hz. The others, due to varying Fs between drive units, are less comparable (but are still usable to understand what happens when you play the speaker near Fs). Hope you all enjoy! I am planning on making a video soon to help explain some of these new data points. 






Purifi Audio PTT6.5W04-01A 6.5 Inch Woofer Review


Purifi Audio PTT6.5W04-01A 6.5 Inch Woofer Review




www.erinsaudiocorner.com










AudioFrog GB60 6 Inch Midwoofer Review


AudioFrog GB60 6 Inch Midwoofer Review




www.erinsaudiocorner.com










Dyn Audio MW182 10-Inch Woofer Review


Dyn Audio MW182 10-Inch Mid/Woofer Review




www.erinsaudiocorner.com


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

AudioFrog GS8ND2 and Audio Development SW800 reviews are now up.

Videos soon. Hopefully. If I am still alive after all the heat I'm about to catch...









AudioFrog GS8ND2 8-Inch Woofer Review


https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/driveunits/audiofroggs8nd2/




www.diymobileaudio.com














Audio Development SW800 8-Inch Woofer Review


https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/driveunits/audio_development_sw800/




www.diymobileaudio.com


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)




----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

rton20s said:


>


LOL. Seriously, I told my friends that if they don't hear from me again they will know why.


----------



## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

I’m surprised but here’s the deal, the speaker designers have control of the parameters but this is also why Audiofrog chose to make this a GS driver instead of a GB. As you pointed out, for the use case for which it was designed, it will do well without breaking the bank. A GB version of the 8” would have been every bit of $1200 though arguably worth it if it extended on the GB60 capabilities (as a midbass, not suggesting midrange of GB60). But AD, definitely a disappointment but then again, they had full control of the design.

I see no reason to shoot the messenger though your tests are definitely stringent but I’m pretty sure we all agree they are equally stringent for all drivers.

And really want to thank you for all of the drivers you’ve been testing as I was considering some of them, I’m going to try to find time in the next couple months to put in my system and I have the ZR800, the Dyn MW182s, which would both take door customization or I may just take the ErinH easy button and go with the GB60s. Your tests have helped me understand that the larger drivers, without more excursion aren’t such a huge step up. Well maybe the ZR800 but that would be a beast to fit and tame door issues with that monster playing.


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Where's that video of the MW182? I almost forgot what it looks like 

Ge0


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Ge0 said:


> Where's that video of the MW182? I almost forgot what it looks like
> 
> Ge0


YouTube banned it. Apparently butt cheeks are frowned upon. I’ll have to recreate it with clothes on this time.


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

ErinH said:


> YouTube banned it. Apparently butt cheeks are frowned upon. I’ll have to recreate it with clothes on this time.


Oh sh!t. You got me !!!

Ge0


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

ErinH said:


> YouTube banned it. Apparently butt cheeks are frowned upon. I’ll have to recreate it with clothes on this time.


I like your sarcastic / joking style Bikinipunk (bringing back the dead). It is very close to mine 🤪

Ge0


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

ErinH said:


> YouTube banned it. Apparently butt cheeks are frowned upon. I’ll have to recreate it with clothes on this time.


I'm betting it had less to do with the butt cheeks per se and more to do with what you were doing to that poor driver.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)




----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I got my review pair of the Revel F226Be speakers in today. $7k pair speakers. 

I made a quick unboxing video. Which isn't typical of me. But, this was too cool not to share.

I will be conducting a full review. Not sure when the review will be done. But stay tuned. Until then, here you go...


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

ErinH said:


> I got my review pair of the Revel F226Be speakers in today. $7k pair speakers.
> 
> I made a quick unboxing video. Which isn't typical of me. But, this was too cool not to share.
> 
> I will be conducting a full review. Not sure when the review will be done. But stay tuned. Until then, here you go...


Nice!

But did you post this as a private video on YouTube?

I'm signed-in to DIYMA & YouTube, but I don't see this video in your listed videos on YouTube. And when I click on the video here, it shows up as "null, If the owner of this video has granted you access, sign in."


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

fixed


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

ErinH said:


> fixed


Thanks, Erin. It's definitely an interesting speaker! 👍

I also just noticed that the new *KEF LS50 META* speakers were announced using the 12th Generation of the Uni-Q driver.

The "Meta" moniker refers to a "back wave absorber matrix" or circular/concentric maze-type chambered disc that is mounted directly to the back of the driver.

It is described as being effective in reducing the back-wave energy and resulting cabinet & cone resonances/IMD down to ~600Hz.

Of course the midwoofer driver & tangerine waveguide are also said to be improved, along with better internal enclosure bracing and resonance control.

Because you have so much first-hand experience with these Uni-Q drivers, I'd be very interested in your impressions and objective tests of these new speakers & drivers, especially in comparison to the original LS50.

Curious as to how much of the overall improvements are due to the improved cabinet/enclosure vs. the actual driver improvements and Meta technology?

I've read that Yamaha uses something similar in their NS5000 as well.

There's certainly no shortage of interesting loudspeaker tech for you to explore!

Excellent video that explains the "META" absorber technology...


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> Thanks, Erin. It's definitely an interesting speaker! 👍
> 
> I also just noticed that the new *KEF LS50 META* speakers were announced using the 12th Generation of the Uni-Q driver.
> 
> ...



yea, I saw when the rumors started coming out. I watched that video when Doug posted it on ASR a couple days ago. Interesting. The "material" tag is misleading, at least to me. To me this is a helmholtz resonator rather than the traditional "material" (cloth, foam, etc). Apparently the white paper has a lot of great info in it. I just haven't read it. I'm too lazy/disinterested at this moment.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

ErinH said:


> yea, I saw when the rumors started coming out. I watched that video when Doug posted it on ASR a couple days ago. Interesting. The "material" tag is misleading, at least to me. To me this is a helmholtz resonator rather than the traditional "material" (cloth, foam, etc). Apparently the white paper has a lot of great info in it. I just haven't read it. I'm too lazy/disinterested at this moment.


I had the same gut reaction to the use of the word material. I guess by the use of the term "meta" they are implying that through engineering they are able to use non-traditional materials and design/engineering to perform the same task as another material. In this case, the claim is that they can take the place of traditional materials (cloth, foam, etc.) and design (tapered horn) and actually provide superior performance with a more compact design. They claim up to 99% absorption of the target frequencies.

I read through the white paper yesterday, and while I am nowhere close to an engineer and won't pretend to have even attempted to understand the formulas, I believe you are correct in your assertation that the disc is a helmoltz resonator. A series of them actually, covering the full audio spectrum from 620 Hz up.


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Yeah, same reaction to the "Meta material" moniker here. Since when did common polymer plastics become "meta"?

And yeah, on first glance, it's obviously some type of multi-chambered, tuned resonator device.

But hey, they gotta have some type of sensational new marketing term to make it seem revolutionary and significantly superior to the previous model...and unique to anything else on the market as well.  The original LS50 was a hit, and now they can sell it all over again...preying on our insatiable upgrade-itis. 

I do believe that the new model will "sound better", as well as measure better. But I'm curious as to how much better, and in what aspects?

So yes, I am interested in a direct objective & subjective comparison with the OG LS50, even though I've never owned or extensively listened to it. But I'm not immediately compelled to rush out and buy either of these. More real-world info or hearing them in-person might change that.

I also gotta admit that I'm too lazy to read the white paper at the moment.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

If these measure well, I am cutting the chambers off of my tweeters and gluing one of these to the back.


----------



## 218625 (Jun 18, 2020)

I have a new pair of Dyn Esotar 650s here, and I've been wondering how they stack up against the MW 172 (and others).

Would you be interested in testing these?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I appreciate the offer but frankly, I'm overwhelmed. I have 10+ speakers/drivers/subwoofers to test. I won't be asking or taking any additional speakers for at least a month. If not longer.


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

McLovin said:


> I have a new pair of Dyn Esotar 650s here, and I've been wondering how they stack up against the MW 172 (and others).
> 
> Would you be interested in testing these?


Look for an older article named "midbass shootout". A few guys on this forum got together and tested midbasses subjectively quite extensively a few years back. Your Esotars took one of the top prizes.

Ge0


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

McLovin said:


> I have a new pair of Dyn Esotar 650s here, and I've been wondering how they stack up against the MW 172 (and others).
> 
> Would you be interested in testing these?


You can always bribe Erin with donations 

Ge0


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I have tested so many speakers I literally forget them... 

Turns out I tested the Esotar 650 in 2012:








Dyn Esotar 650 Midwoofer Testing


Thanks to Matt (BuickGN) for donating the driver to test. Dynaudio - Authentic Fidelity




www.diymobileaudio.com


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

ErinH said:


> I have tested so many speakers I literally forget them...
> 
> Turns out I tested the Esotar 650 in 2012:
> 
> ...


I was gonna say, you've been there and done that, LOL.

Of course, I hate to potentially add to your backlog (not really  ), and they might be a bit tricky to source here, but I would seriously try to put one of the Børresen Acoustics 01/02/03/05 speakers in your que to test if at all possible. Some interesting driver technology as well.









Hi-Fi | Amplifiers, Loudspeakers & Accessories - Audio Group Denmark


Want the absolute sound? Ansuz, Aavik and Boerresen manufactures hi-fi audio equipment such as power switches, amplifiers and loudspeakers.




borresen-acoustics.com





Gotta admit I'm considering saving up for these for their beauty and aesthetics alone (the GF approves as well, saying..."Billy, I think you should get THESE!" wink wink). But Oh My Gawd, sonic bliss.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

bbfoto said:


> Hi-Fi | Amplifiers, Loudspeakers & Accessories - Audio Group Denmark
> 
> 
> Want the absolute sound? Ansuz, Aavik and Boerresen manufactures hi-fi audio equipment such as power switches, amplifiers and loudspeakers.
> ...


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

rton20s said:


>


Yup, Dustin, that pretty much sums up my reaction to them as I listened to them over the weekend at my cousin's house, AND my reaction again when I learned the price, LOL!

That's why I inserted the "winks" to my GF's suggestion that I should get them, haha. She was only half joking tho'...SHE wants them, haha.

My cousin and her husband who is a doctor recently moved back to their house in Laguna Niguel, CA that they had rented out for 10 years while they moved to Oregon to be closer to their kids.

I hadn't seen my cousin in about that same amount of time, and she wanted to meet my GF as well, so we went down there over the weekend to catch up.

This particular cousin and my sisters and I spent a lot of time together when we were growing up as her father/my uncle died suddenly from a heart attack when she was 11 and she stayed with us for most of that summer, so she's more like a another sister to me.

Anyway, her husband, Roger, has been an audiophile for as long as I can remember. When I first met him and visited their new house after they got married, he had an entire floor-to-ceiling wall of Vinyl LPs, a pair of huge McIntosh tube monoblocks, and the legendary Dalhquist DQ10 speakers. That was at least 20 years ago. He's upgraded just a bit since then, LOL.

He said that he decided to get the Børresen 03's when they knew that they were moving back down to SoCal. He and my cousin have also tastefully done a lot of acoustic treatment to the room.

Living in L.A., I've had the opportunity to listen to some fairly impressive home audio systems over the years. And I _previously_ _thought_ that I had a fairly decent setup at home as well...until I heard these, haha.

I honestly have never experienced such an effortless and "You Are There in the room with the performers" system...EVER. When the system started playing, my GF & I looked at each other on the couch just like your Sarah Jessica Parker meme, haha.

When we got home and I looked into the price, I turned to my GF and said something like, "Well babe, I guess you're gonna haveta decide whether you really want that new car, OR these new speakers". 

She hesitated for a long moment, mumbled "Que Coisa, Billy?!" under her breath...then continued loading the dishwasher in silence, haha. And I think she's still actually contemplating it because she still hasn't said anything one way or the other. She's a bit of a quirky Italian-Brazillian and probably loves music more than I do! I could sense the internal dilemma from her crinkled brow and nose twitch, haha.

Gotta admit, I want them BAD as well! But Fuug, they are spendy! 

Apologize for the derail, Erin, but you REALLY SHOULD check these out if possible!


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Thanks for the derail Billy. I appreciate the story. And forget the choice between the car and the speakers. Where I live, some of those options would be the choice between having and not having a house to put them in. 😬


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

rton20s said:


> Thanks for the derail Billy. I appreciate the story. And forget the choice between the car and the speakers. Where I live, some of those options would be the choice between having and not having a house to put them in. 😬


For reals, mate!  Being Californians, we both know that a decent home in even a "just safe enough" area (along with CA taxes) are freakin' ridonculous! 

If I wasn't fortunate enough to already have my home, yeah, there wouldn't have even been a millisecond of contemplation. The Børresen's are honestly just a pipe dream at this point in time. But the dream _is_ there, and it's a vivid one for both of us, ha!

My parents just left here this morning and headed back home. They've been staying down here with us for the last several weeks due to the threat of the Creek Fire in Bass Lake/Oakhurst. The smoke alone was too much for them. Ironically, the Bobcat fire was starting to become a threat to our place. :/ It's under control and no longer a threat, but fook, man!

But it's been a nervous few weeks for my parents, wondering if they would even have a home to go back to as the fire was within ~2.5-3 miles of their house. Makes you realize how much there is to lose in the blink of an eye. So thankful.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Billy, if you wind up getting a pair and want to send them to me, you're welcome to do so.


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

ErinH said:


> Billy, if you wind up getting a pair and want to send them to me, you're welcome to do so.


or me ... JK/LOL


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

ErinH said:


> Billy, if you wind up getting a pair and want to send them to me, you're welcome to do so.





seafish said:


> or me ... JK/LOL


Erin, you can send me that pair of Purifi drivers to cover the shipping cost.  

Wait...scratch that, I probably couldn't even afford the _insurance_ for the shipment to cover the value of the louspeakers! 

Honestly, it would be _at least_ a few years of saving my pennies and doing the ramen noodle diet before I could even think about purchasing these. 

And these are speakers that I would be very reluctant to ship for fear of even the slightest damage.

Honestly, these are the type of High-End loudspeakers where the dealer spends at least a full day and personally comes to your home with several staff members to deliver them, set them up, connect them to your system, take measurements, and precisely position them for you in your listening room for best performance.

If you really want to hear them, your best bet is to contact the distributor (Next Level HiFi in Chicago) to see if a nearby dealer has them available for demo in their showroom. If so, they most likely will only have the #01 2-way stand-mount monitors, but from my further research, even those are next level.

Or attend one of the major High-End Audio shows that has a Børresen/Ansuz/Aavik demo room, which is unlikely to happen for a while due to COVID-19. 

In the meantime, here's a YouTube video I found of an interview with Michael Børresen describing the bespoke driver technology he developed for this speaker line. IMO it's legit tech and not the typical snake oil you see from other High-End brands.

Skip to 01:08 in the following video...


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I do have a set of the Dutch & Dutch 8C coming my way. I spoke with co-founder Martijn Mensink via skype back in July about my site, my goals and his speaker. He was more than willing to send me a pair to review. COVID is causing shipping delays right now and the US rep's 2 review pairs are in reviewer's hands. I actually just touched base with him this morning and he's hoping to get them to me soon, though. 









8c


8c. Accurate. Adaptive. All-in-one. Overview. Completely accurate music reproduction requires more than a thoroughly optimized speaker. It requires a speaker that works together with the acoustics of the listening room. The 8c is more than just a loudspeaker. It is a unique acoustic concept...




dutchdutch.com


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

ErinH said:


> Well, if it makes you feel any better, I do have a set of the Dutch & Dutch 8C coming my way. I spoke with co-founder Martijn Mensink via skype back in July about my site, my goals and his speaker. He was more than willing to send me a pair to review. COVID is causing shipping delays right now and the US rep's 2 review pairs are in reviewer's hands. I actually just touched base with him this morning and he's hoping to get them to me soon, though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*NICE!*

I'm definitely looking forward to your analysis. 

I've been aware of them for a while now, but for whatever reason have overlooked them and haven't investigated further. Thrilled that you will be putting hands and ears on them.  

Man, it's such a great time for advancements in the tech & design of transducers and loudspeakers...and for audio in general. 

For everything else in 2020, not so much!


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Thanks, Erin! Awesome review and data!!!












Erin's Audio Corner


The Sound of Science




www.erinsaudiocorner.com


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

What a well done review ... succinct but so complete !!!


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

seafish said:


> What a well done review ... succinct but so complete !!!


I would urge everyone to read the full review on Erin's website.  There is A LOT more data and details that he needed to skim over in order to keep the video at a reasonable length.

Personally, I don't mind long videos, especially when they contain valuable information such as this. But I know that a lot of people don't have the time and just want the quick & dirty answers.

It would also be great to directly compare the *Dutch & Dutch 8C* to the *Kii Audio Three* since they use similar solutions/ideologies.






Kii Audio :::







www.kiiaudio.com


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

@ErinH I'm sure you have a whole list or products in your queue for testing, but I would be curious to see how the 6.5" Bold North (Misco) XBL^2 drivers stack up. I saw on Misco's site that they had them Klippeled by their Warkwyn division, but the data they provide from the testing is pretty thin. Xmax seems compliance limited (75%) to 6.0mm and 9.5mm respectively.

For those not familiar, these are the two drivers I am referring to...
6.5” (165 mm) XBL^2 High Excursion, Ultra Low Distortion Woofer
6.5” (165 mm) XBL² High Excursion, Low Distortion Woofer


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

rton20s said:


> @ErinH I'm sure you have a whole list or products in your queue for testing, but I would be curious to see how the 6.5" Bold North (Misco) XBL^2 drivers stack up. I saw on Misco's site that they had them Klippeled by their Warkwyn division, but the data they provide from the testing is pretty thin. Xmax seems compliance limited (75%) to 6.0mm and 9.5mm respectively.
> 
> For those not familiar, these are the two drivers I am referring to...
> 6.5” (165 mm) XBL^2 High Excursion, Ultra Low Distortion Woofer
> 6.5” (165 mm) XBL² High Excursion, Low Distortion Woofer


Confused. They advertise the heck out of being klippel tested / verified but they don't offer up the data...

Ge0


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Ge0 said:


> Confused. They advertise the heck out of being klippel tested / verified but they don't offer up the data...
> 
> Ge0


Rockford has done the same sort of thing for years. They use the Klippel logo as a sort of "you can trust our specs" badge without providing the buying public any of the actual data. This isn't all that surprising for a car audio brand, but I would expect more from Misco. (Especially considering Misco = Warkwyn.)

What I could find on the spec sheet pdfs was a table listing the limiting factors for Xmax (force factor, compliance, inductance, IM distortion). This is better than most companies which might give you a calculated Xmax based on overhang. But, it only begins to scratch the surface compared to the volume of data Erin provides and the excellent ways he presents it.


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Ge0 said:


> Confused. They advertise the heck out of being klippel tested / verified but they don't offer up the data...
> 
> Ge0





rton20s said:


> Rockford has done the same sort of thing for years. They use the Klippel logo as a sort of "you can trust our specs" badge without providing the buying public any of the actual data.


Alpine did this with their #F1 Status drivers as well as the Type-X SPX17PRO & 13PRO.

And all of the higher-tier Kicker components and subwoofers are Klippel-tested in-house as well. But they don't publish that data, most likely because it would be lost on the general car audio public.


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Erin, I know that you already have your list of "Go-To'' demo music/test tracks, but I wanted to suggest just a few very short tracks that are great for testing Depth, Height, and the Dynamics for your subjective listening impressions.

It seemed that you didn't have many tracks that distinctly revealed the depth perception of the Revels.

All of these tracks can be found on the
*Stockfish Records - Are You Authentic? (AYA) Authentic Audio Check SACD*

The DEPTH (+ Height & Width) Track is *#15. "Djembe Walk"*:

This track is a single African Djembe Drum that is being played with a succession of double-strikes (kind of like a heartbeat) while walking in a large circle in front of a stereo Blumlein microphone pair. You can also perceive the placement of the footsteps along with the drum.

It is similar to the popular "7 Snare Drum Track", except that it adds the dimensions of Depth and Height because it is not a single microphone recording of a snare drum that is simply "panned" across a 2-dimensional stage.


The *"Dynamics"* tracks are *#18. "Percussion Ensemble - Glockenspiel"*, and *#20. "Fireworks"*

Track #18 is a solo Glockenspiel. That's a percussion instrument that is in the same family as the Xylophone and very similar.

The dynamics of each initial strike are simply incredible on a system that is dynamically capable of reproducing them without compression!

This track also presents the individual percussive strikes with _pinpoint accuracy and focus_ in the sound stage. You can visually imagine the placement in space of each strike the musician makes.

The individual strikes also exhibit that Low-Frequency Percussive Impact & Detail similar to Madonna's "Borderline". It's a very short and simple track, but _extremely_ revealing in many ways.

As with the cymbal crash in Winwood's "Higher Love", you hear the sensation of the decay of each of the Glockenspiel's bars after its initial strike as it reverberates in the "air" and space around each of the particular bars, and each is definitively and naturally placed across the stage, in its own individual space.

This simple Glockenspiel track is one of my absolute favorites to very quickly evaluate the capabilities of any system.


Track #20 of the Fireworks is what you would expect...Dynamic. And as you experienced with the Revels, you should be able to perceive the fireworks' "impact'' and clarity even at lower listening levels. Of course, a subwoofer is necessary for the full experience, but this track will reveal the dynamic capability or limits of any full-range loudspeaker (as will the firing of the Cannons in the better recordings of the 1812 Overture!).

Justin Zazzi's Fireworks track is excellent as well. 

Anyway, all of these tracks are relatively short and will not add much time to your subjective evaluation. But each are extremely revealing. Worth a listen IMO.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> *NICE!*
> 
> I'm definitely looking forward to your analysis.
> 
> ...


Tyner (co-owner) is coming to my house Saturday to set them up! 


rton20s said:


> @ErinH I'm sure you have a whole list or products in your queue for testing, but I would be curious to see how the 6.5" Bold North (Misco) XBL^2 drivers stack up. I saw on Misco's site that they had them Klippeled by their Warkwyn division, but the data they provide from the testing is pretty thin. Xmax seems compliance limited (75%) to 6.0mm and 9.5mm respectively.
> 
> For those not familiar, these are the two drivers I am referring to...
> 6.5” (165 mm) XBL^2 High Excursion, Ultra Low Distortion Woofer
> 6.5” (165 mm) XBL² High Excursion, Low Distortion Woofer


Did you look at the FR? 10-15dB rise in response between 1-3kHz. So 2-way is out. Midbass only.


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

ErinH said:


> Tyler (co-owner) is coming to my house Saturday to set them up!


Very cool! 

It'd be really interesting to get Tyner's quick impressions on the system in your Civic.  Maybe have him bring a USB thumbdrive, or I'm sure he'll have his iPhone with his own demo music or Tidal, etc.

If he agrees, don't tell him what equipment you have in the system or how it's setup, or make any comments about it ahead of time that might allow him to pre-form any opinion or expectation bias.

Just say, "Hey man, if you have a moment, I'd really like to get your honest impressions and feedback on my car audio system with a quick song or two of your choice".

It'd also make a great impromptu or "casual interview" video for your YouTube channel with a unique perspective from someone outside of the "car audio scene". Something like what Peter @ PSsound videos with his customers in their car when they first hear their new system that he's installed, or Nick Apicella's comp car competitor interview videos.

Obviously, with the 'Rona virus concerns, his impressions could be video'd with your iPhone after the demo with you two guys just sitting out in lawn chairs on the grass or on your patio 6ft apart in your backyard casually "shootin' the sh!t" style.

I really think it'd be great to get "impressions on custom aftermarket car audio" interviews from some of the better known home audio professionals in the industry.

It'd still be interesting for you and good to get his feedback even if he isn't cool with being on camera and it's just a private convo.

Just a thought.

Either way, I'm looking forward to your rundown on the 8C's. 👍


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

ErinH said:


> Tyler (co-owner) is coming to my house Saturday to set them up!
> 
> 
> Did you look at the FR? 10-15dB rise in response between 1-3kHz. So 2-way is out. Midbass only.


I did. I was looking at them both as more for a midbass application, based on exactly what you saw. Efficiency also isn't the best. A double strike when you consider they are both 8 ohm drivers.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> Very cool!
> 
> It'd be really interesting to get Tyler's quick impressions on the system in your Civic.  Maybe have him bring a USB thumbdrive, or I'm sure he'll have his iPhone with his own demo music or Tidal, etc.
> 
> ...












That's gonna be a hard no from me, Billy. Asking him if he wants a demo is something I considered but no way am I gonna ask him to review my system on video for my channel. No offense, man, but to me that just comes off as very weird to ask a guy I don't know if he minds jumping on camera to talk about my car audio system... that's something Jon Whitledge does and it was always super cringe-worthy when he would post those videos in SQ groups. If this was a buddy it would be different. But I have literally only talked to him once for about 15 minutes. So, I'll have to pass on that idea at least for now. 

On the flip side, I had a manufacturer ask me to do this with them and I turned them down for the same reason. I asked if they would be willing to loan me some speakers. They said they're in Chattanooga and they offered to let me come up and demo them at their friend's apartment and "record my reaction". I told them that sounded weird and I'll pass. Haven't talked to them since. Their loss.


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

LOL, perfect meme, and I get it. And you're absolutely right. 👍 If Tyler was someone you've known for a good bit, then maybe. I don't follow Jon _at all_, and that is one of the main reasons as well.

I do think that Tyner would probably be interested in hearing your Civic system tho'. To be honest, I've never known an audiophile that doesn't like to check out other's "high level" systems. Sure, they usually don't expect much, roll their eyes, or lose interest when "car audio" is mentioned, but most home audio guys don't have a clue what is possible in a car system these days.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Yea, I'll mention the car. Not sure if we will have enough time, though. He's coming early to set them up, and gotta be out by 10:30am. 

BTW, his name is Tyner... I misheard it when he left a message. First time I've seen that name but I'm sure he was wondering why "Erin" sounded like a guy when I answered the phone, too. LOL


----------



## naiku (May 28, 2008)

ErinH said:


> "Erin" sounded like a guy when I answered the phone, too. LOL


Better hope he's never seen your hair trick videos 🤣😂


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I took delivery of the incredible Dutch & Dutch 8C today to review. For those not familiar with these speakers, I encourage you to check out the website, because these are not your everyday bookshelf type speaker. Also, @napilopez reviewed these in this thread here.

Tyner Strub, President of D&D USA hand delivered these (he was kind of passing through my area) and helped me get them set up and walked me through some of the integration with REW for room correction purposes. I've got other fish to fry before I can start measuring these so I'll be doing a couple weeks' of listening. But I wanted to share because I'm excited.

Oh, and Happy Halloween, everyone!!!!


----------



## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Wow! They pack a lot of awesomeness in those enclosures! Happy Listening! Looking forward to your impressions!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Well, these are the first set of speakers I've busted out iZotope's Imager to verify that was I was hearing wasn't wrong... the stage on the two songs listed in the photo below have things in them that stood out enough to make me question if what I was hearing was on the track or if the speaker/room was causing something to be incorrect. Spoiler alert: The speakers/room are not at fault. The tracks are just played back at a higher fidelity in terms of imaging than I am simply used to. And it threw me off enough to look at an actual "stage map" of the tracks through editing software.

For example:
On Chord Overstreet's cover of We've Got Tonight, when the vocalist starts singing his voice starts sharp to the left-of-center. I thought maybe this was a room issue caused from the asymmetrical shape of the room wrt to the speakers' position. But, it's actually on the track that way. I've heard this song quite a few times and haven't caught that before. Doesn't mean it was never there on other setups. Just means that it caught my attention.

Another example is: The sax on the Superette track (from Phil Woods' Here's to My Lady) is about 6 to 7 feet to the right of the speaker and according to the imager. I thought maybe it was some artifact or something... surely these speakers don't throw an image _that_ wide. But, turns out, that's correct because the content is about 90° out of phase and should pan hard right. These speakers _do_ throw an image that wide. Paint me very impressed.















If you wanna demo the tracks, here they are. Very good songs.


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

^Nice. 

And I LOVE just about everything iZotope makes. 

To be fair, even my desktop computer speakers reveal the position of the vocal in We've Got Tonight. His voice images fairly high in the stage as well.

And they will "get halfway there" on the sax in the Phil Woods track if I toe-out the speakers about 10°. My home and studio monitor setups reveal this fully.

And surprisingly, the little built-in speakers in the Windoz laptop I use for tuning will actually reveal most of those Way Left or Right phased images. It's a 15" screen and I've had it image those elements in the mix at least another 15" off to each side.

Try that "Djembe Walk" drum track with the 8C's.  Also try Tears For Fears "Woman In Chains".

And have you heard imaging from completely behind you yet on a 2-channel setup?


----------



## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

bbfoto said:


> And have you heard imaging from completely behind you yet on a 2-channel setup?


Living Dead Girl by Rob Zombie.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Just about anything mastered with Q-sound will do that as well. Pretty neat stuff.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> To be fair, even my desktop computer speakers reveal the position of the vocal in We've Got Tonight. His voice images fairly high in the stage as well.
> 
> And they will "get halfway there" on the sax in the Phil Woods track if I toe-out the speakers about 10°. My home and studio monitor setups reveal this fully.


To be fair, it also helps when you know exactly what to listen for. Would you have noticed it if you weren't listening for explicitly, or would it have just been a casual observance? That's an unanswerable question at this point. So, like I said in the post, "I've heard this song quite a few times and haven't caught that before. Doesn't mean it was never there on other setups. Just means that it caught my attention."

These speakers just do it to the extent that it stands out enough to make me go "is that right?".


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

ErinH said:


> I took delivery of the incredible Dutch & Dutch 8C today to review. For those not familiar with these speakers, I encourage you to check out the website, because these are not your everyday bookshelf type speaker. Also, @napilopez reviewed these in this thread here.
> 
> Tyner Strub, President of D&D USA hand delivered these (he was kind of passing through my area) and helped me get them set up and walked me through some of the integration with REW for room correction purposes. I've got other fish to fry before I can start measuring these so I'll be doing a couple weeks' of listening. But I wanted to share because I'm excited.
> 
> Oh, and Happy Halloween, everyone!!!!


Looks like there's more speakers on the back side huh? Or are those just passive radiators LOL ?

Ge0


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Ge0 said:


> Looks like there's more speakers on the back side huh? Or are those just passive radiators LOL ?
> 
> Ge0


(2) 8-inch subwoofers on the back.








8c


8c. Accurate. Adaptive. All-in-one. Overview. Completely accurate music reproduction requires more than a thoroughly optimized speaker. It requires a speaker that works together with the acoustics of the listening room. The 8c is more than just a loudspeaker. It is a unique acoustic concept...




dutchdutch.com


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

ErinH said:


> (2) 8-inch subwoofers on the back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude, I read up on those last week when they were first mentioned. I was just being an idiot. An idiot who can't afford those speakers 

Ge0


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Erin, regarding stage Depth and Soundstage + ambience or "hearing into the room", I have to suggest yet another demo/test track for your subjective evaluations. 😊

I know that we all like to use tracks that we are intimately familiar with, but I believe that we should also become familiar with "new" music that has proven to be well-recorded and revealing, and/or enjoyable.

I also realize that you're probably not much of a regular jazz listener, but since you posted about the unique qualities of the Phil Woods track, I figure that you might be expanding your horizons a bit from your 80's- & 90's-skewed playlist.  Don't fret, I wouldn't (and couldn't afford to) sue you for this, as I'm also a huge 80's, and to a lesser degree, 90's music fan.

If you don't have it, download trumpet player, *Jon Hassell's *_*Fascinoma*_ album from HDtracks (up to 24/88.2, on Water Lily Acoustics, Catalog #WLA-CS-70-CD).

It was recorded in a largish church in Santa Barbara, CA. I've sought out and listened to countless interpretations of the classic jazz standard, "Caravan", and there are many very good performances and recordings of this.

However, the Hassell recording stands out for its soundstage and "hearing into the room". (The recording may not be an easy listen for most, as it's bit on the eclectic side, and fittingly was produced by Ry Cooder).

But focus on the PIANO. It is DEEP in the stage, and in my studio monitor setup I've actually perceived the piano as being outside of my physical room boundaries...IOW, on the opposite side of the front wall, WELL behind and beyond the speakers and wall.

IME, only a select few recordings do this convincingly, and this is a good example. Give it a listen when you are seeking depth perception of the soundstage, and "experiencing the room" or "space" of the venue.


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

A fairly revealing "Live" listening test between 3 High-End speaker systems including the *Dutch & Dutch 8C*...






They use some of my favorite test tracks as well...






Bach: Little Fugue in G minor, BWV 578 by Jacques Loussier Trio on Amazon Music - Amazon.com


Check out Bach: Little Fugue in G minor, BWV 578 by Jacques Loussier Trio on Amazon Music. Stream ad-free or purchase CD's and MP3s now on Amazon.com.



www.amazon.com











^PLEASE DO NOT COMMENT about this HERE.

Though I feel it is relevant, I fear I've already contributed too much in mucking up Erin's thread! 😊 Luckily he's a moderator and can clean it up or use the "ban" hammer at will. I promise I won't be too butthurt.


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Erin, since Peter Gabriel's "Sledgehammer" is in your demo music playlist, I thought you might be interested in this excellent breakdown and dissection/analysis of this amazing and iconic track...


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

For the audio/dialog production of your YouTube channel...just released...and includes a lavalier microphone...







Or look into the "TRACK E" from Tentacle Sync...excellent review on the ''Gerald Undone" YouTube channel.


----------



## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> Erin, since Peter Gabriel's "Sledgehammer" is in your demo music playlist, I thought you might be interested in this excellent breakdown and dissection/analysis of this amazing and iconic track...


I really enjoyed that - I’ll be watching more of those. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

bertholomey said:


> I really enjoyed that - I’ll be watching more of those.


 There are some similar videos to this on the *Rick Beato* YouTube channel as well.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

FWIW...


Tomorrow 12/30 at 6PM Central I'll be live with my good friend and SQ wizard, Steve Weigner (maybe it should be Steve Wizard?). 

If you have any car audio related questions you'd like him/us to discuss post them here and we will try to get to them. Tips on tuning, favorite amps, favorite hair gel,... whatever you would like. Or join us live in the chat at the link below and ask there! Give us something to talk about... otherwise we will be forced to discuss what is is like being adults and that is laaaaame.


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

ErinH said:


> FWIW...
> 
> 
> Tomorrow 12/30 at 6PM Central I'll be live with my good friend and SQ wizard, Steve Weigner (maybe it should be Steve Wizard?).
> ...


Wait, you use hair gel? LOL!!!

I'll be sure to watch. Hmm. What time is that EST ?

Ge0


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

OK. Here are a few questions to fuel the inbox:

1.) At what stage in tuning should you perform time alignment? 
2.) After fidgeting with stuff like cross-overs and EQ should you go back and re-check time alignment?
3.) Steve always has such nice hair. What products does he use?
4.) Think of a typical factory location install. Say I have midbasses and midranges mounted in my doors, midbasses are down low and midranges are up high. Tweeters are tucked in the far corners on each side of the dash. After tuning my stage is well focused, has excellent tonality, but is narrow. There seems to be little to no content far left and right. What tricks could be used to stretch it out?
5.) How do you properly incorporate a center channel speaker so it enhances the sound stage vs. collapses it?
6.) How do you properly set subwoofer timing? I can't do the tape measure trick due to obstructions.
7.) What measurement method do you use to obtain accurate / repeatable results when checking system frequency response? Equipment? Software?
8.) How far do you go to correct response anomalies vs. just letting it go? This goes for peaks as well as dips.
9.) Do you believe Elvis is still alive and living in Kalamazoo MI?

Ge0


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Bump

Why has nobody else replied to this thread? Seems like a great opportunity to ask some questions. Or, just to harass Erin and Steve 

Ge0


----------



## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

1. Proper distance to mic speakers when using RTA (REW) for most accurate response?
1a. Doors vs dash? 
1b. Subwoofer?
2. How to tell the difference between a null due to phasing and response variations? 
3. Best practice for recognizing comb filtering reflections versus primary phase cancelation? 
4. Can you get correct phasing if you overlap a sub into the midbass front stage?
5. When to use crossover slopes other than 4th LR and why? 
6. When to worry about edge diffraction if your tweeters are behind factory or custom covers? 
7. Best practice for dealing with comb filtering when dash speakers are aimed at the windshield? 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

There we go. Get your questions in to give Erin and Steve time to prep. 

Ge0


----------



## SloVic (Oct 1, 2016)

Would you care to test a BMS 5S117? About to order a pair and wanted to offer, I'd pay shipping obviously.

I also have a pair of B&C 8BG51 that I can send out.


----------



## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

1) are there any particular tricks to getting doors to be a better enclosure?
2) Is there such a thing as using too much EQ while tuning?
3a) what are the pros and cons of different measuring methods when using REW/RTA? (Moving ear to ear, multi sweep per ear and average, single point, ect)
3b)Do different methods work better for certain areas of the spectrum? 
4) When using mids or tweets in the corner of the dash, what are the things that need to be overcome when tuning?


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

69.) Beyond flipping my speaker leads, what the heck is this phase thing all about? How do you measure and correct it if its buggered up?

Ge0


----------



## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Ge0 said:


> 69.) Beyond flipping my speaker leads, what the heck is this phase thing all about? How do you measure and correct it if its buggered up?
> 
> Ge0


And is it possible to correct phasing issues with the sliding phase adjustments in the Helix DSP like using an All Pass filter or will that create more problems? 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## bnae38 (Oct 3, 2015)

Two seat tune with center tips please!


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

OK kids. Have your beer and popcorn ready. Just over an hour and counting...

Ge0


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Good ones, guys! I'll add them to the list and we will answer what we can. Not sure how long we will do the live stream but jump in and feel free to chat in the YouTube link if you want.


----------



## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Ge0 said:


> 69.) Beyond flipping my speaker leads, what the heck is this phase thing all about? How do you measure and correct it if its buggered up?


I’ll let Erin or someone discuss phase but you fix it or align it with All-Pass filters. I’ve used it in the past to align sealed and ported subs.


----------



## RyuTsuiSen (Jan 26, 2018)

Thanks again for the live stream! Mobile youtube is dumb and didn't notice the chat until the end when I switched to desktop 

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Great stream. Love the format, and would love to see you do more of them in the future!


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

thanks for joining, everyone. I had to put the video to "unlisted" while it finishes processing the live stream (otherwise it's not in HD quality) but you should still be able to see it, without comments. Once it's complete I'll open it back up to public and share it again here.


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Erin, awesome idea and thanks! A great opportunity for us all to chat and maybe learn something about car audio and each other. I would also love to see this series continue. Did you happen to catch my comment about Patrick Bateman while you were closing .

Ge0


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Thanks. I would like to continue it as well. I have a few guys already in mind and I would like to have Steve back again if he has the time. I also would like to do this for the home audio side if I could get some of the bigwigs there (Dr. Jack Oclee-Brown from Kef, Martijn Mensink from Dutch & Dutch and Andrew Jones from Elac to name a few).


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I created a new thread for the video from last night here. 


For those who missed it, here is the link. If you dig it, "like" it and leave a comment so I'll know to keep doing more in the future. And make sure to subscribe and hit the notifications bell for future episodes. Thanks for watching and enjoy!


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Well, after months of back and forth, looking at expenses and trying to predict the future, I finally did it…

*I have acquired a Klippel Near Field Scanner!!!!*



As some of you have seen me say before, it takes me 10+ hours; sometimes literal days. The NFS will cut that time down significantly and provide even higher accuracy data. I should be receiving it hopefully within a few weeks. I am awaiting a shipping date from Klippel but I just sent payment for shipping/import fees this morning.



It's going to take me a long time to pay this off... at my current YouTube revenue rate it may be 10-15 years (I have literally been averaging $10/day; which is nice but it is nowhere near enough to make a living from). So, it should be apparent (if it wasn’t already apparent) this isn’t about money for me but about passion. Frankly, if I were in this stuff for the money then I would just throw up subjective reviews like so many of the other reviewers and knock out a review per week. That’s not a knock against those guys… plenty of people watch and appreciate that content. But that’s not my goal with my channel/site. For me it is about gathering evidence (data) and using that to help draw meaningful conclusions about what we as listeners like and prefer and then use that knowledge along with future data to help inform in order to make purchase decisions that make more sense for us. I am trying hard to do my best to provide objective and subjective; that's my real goal. And I think I do a good job but the NFS will allow me to take it to a new level. This isn’t my full time job but I work just as hard at it as I do my day job.


As I've said before... if I can just break even, this is a great way for me to pass the time in a meaningful way. I get to play with cool toys. I get to make more friends. I get to learn. I get to grow. And, maybe, if this passion doesn't wane (it hasn't in my last 15 years) then it'll be a hobby for me after I retire from my real job. And the community benefits with great data. The data can never replace hearing something yourself (because tastes can change, etc). But I am a proponent of good data to help us build a better understanding and filter out the junk from the "maybe" pile.


Now, I’m all in on this and payment is being taken care of on my end. _However_, I have started a PayPal contribution page for those of you who have the means and have found my efforts useful enough to warrant contributing to the cause in order to help me at least offset some of my costs. I know times are tough for everyone so if you can’t or simply don’t want to contribute, hey, I get it. Like I said, it’s already a done deal. But if you are able to help just know that I am extremely grateful for anything you can help with.

*If you want to help contribute to the cause the link is below:*
Erin's Audio Corner Klippel Near Field Scanner Fund


----------



## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

At $900 now. 16 contributors.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

schmiddr2 said:


> At $900 now. 16 contributors.


You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. 



And a total hunk.


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

dgage said:


> I’ll let Erin or someone discuss phase but you fix it or align it with All-Pass filters. I’ve used it in the past to align sealed and ported subs.


Unless you are measuring phase an allpass is a very delicate thing to put on... it’s like listening to a track and putting a single eq band on... but you also have to guess the Q, level and freq of the boost or cut based on listening instead of looking at an rta for example

How many people could guess a parametric filter and apply it perfectly... not many I’m guessing if any... well phase is even harder to hear than x/y/z freqs... so there are even less that could have a guess at applying an all pass filter

If you have something like smaart (live analysis), or rew (sweeps) to view phase and then apply the all pass it becomes so much easier to do... but even then it takes a fair few goes at applying, moving freq and Q but the more you use it the easier it gets

FIR filters are far better for fixing phase and impulse response


----------



## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Can't you "see" phase issues in the frequency response when multiple speakers are playing together so that you know where to apply an allpass filter? I've done that with my midbass, for example. They both have the exact response that I want when playing on their own, but when played together, there is a big dip at a particular spot. So I use an allpass filter in that spot and the 6dB dip just goes away without requiring any EQ whatsoever. I'm sure it's not "perfect", but surely the resulting response is better than having the huge dip, right?

I think I learned this from one of Skizers videos about identifying phase issues when remote tuning, using just pink noise measurements. It's worked wonders for my measured response without any obvious "cons".


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

jtrosky said:


> Can't you "see" phase issues in the frequency response when multiple speakers are playing together so that you know where to apply an allpass filter? I've done that with my midbass, for example. They both have the exact response that I want when playing on their own, but when played together, there is a big dip at a particular spot. So I use an allpass filter in that spot and the 6dB dip just goes away without requiring any EQ whatsoever. I'm sure it's not "perfect", but surely the resulting response is better than having the huge dip, right?
> 
> I think I learned this from one of Skizers videos about identifying phase issues when remote tuning, using just pink noise measurements. It's worked wonders for my measured response without any obvious "cons".


You can see an issue... but how much of one... how wide do you need the q to be, second order... first order, what is the phase actually doing? Which side do you need to apply the all pass on... (hint... not the side with the phase issue when trying to match sides... Ever! If you have it’s wrong and not doing much of anything apart from adding delay to that channel above the all pass freq to anyone else reading)

You can’t correct a phase issue with all pass, anything you do to the one side will be replicated in the reflected sound as well as the direct... net gain or loss... zero benefit! you can make the opposite side match the timing and phase of the measured side providing you can see exactly what the issue is and match it on the opposite side, you have clearly been lucky and midbass/subs are very easy to correct

It’s like me saying I have a bump on frequency response at 1k... what parametric eq do I need to use to correct it... that’s all the information you have, you couldn’t possibly design or implement a parametric eq with so little information... at least with frequency response you can see the width of the bump, freq, level etc...

Put in black and white you’re guessing what and where it needs to go off nothing but the frequency... it seems you have been lucky in your midbass... but I am also talking mids, tweeters etc to correct for arrival times and crossovers 👍🏼

By all means have a play... but just because it doesn’t work doesn’t mean you can’t sort an issue in one way or another


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

This Thursday (Jan 28th) at 7pm Central time I'll go live to answer your questions about my reviews/measurements or anything else you're curious about as it relates to this channel. I figure it beats trying to make an FAQ. So, if you have specific questions feel free to join and ask.


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Good Morning Erin ...sent ya a PM.


----------



## Michal (11 mo ago)

Hi Erin,
At the outset, sorry to write here, but I cannot send you a private message.
I recently got a KEF KHT3005SE set as a gift. While searching the internet for some information about these speakers, I found your test from 2013 "Kef’s HTS3001SE… I cracked the Egg! _ Medley's Musings". When I saw the crossover in the photos, I immediately decided to modify it. Unfortunately, it is not so easy to replace electrolytic capacitors with foil ones, so I would like to check in Vituixcad how it will look like. To perform the simulation, it is necessary to make a loudspeaker model based on the Thiele-Small parameters from the batch file, you cannot do it manually by entering the parameters. As I do not have the appropriate equipment and do not know how to measure the Thiele-Small loudspeaker, I have a great request to you. I know it's been a long time since 2013, but maybe you still have a batch file with this data. If it is possible and it is not a problem for you, I am asking you to share such a file with me. I am convinced that this crossover has done a great deal of harm to these wonderful loudspeakers.
Best regards
Michal


----------

