# 2013 Mazdaspeed 3



## captainobvious

Now that the previous car is sold and tha tbuild log chapter is done (link below), It's time to move onto the next vehicle. A 2013 Mazdaspeed 3. 

Old Install Build Log on 2005 Mazda 3 hatchback:
(http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...129245-2005-mazda-3-hatchback-sq-install.html ) 


To start off, here's some pics of the new ride:


----------



## captainobvious

And some interior shots to see what I'm working with...


----------



## captainobvious

The 2013 Mazdasped 3 has 263 horsepower and 280lb-ft of torque. It has a 6 speed manual and good bolstered seats. Comes with 18" gunmetal grey wheels and a sporty suspension. Overall a very fun car to drive. It has a stock Bose system which is "ok" by factory standards, but far from acceptable for an SQ enthusiast. The doors likely have the same size/orientation speakers as the older model which was a 5x7/6x8 in the doors with tweeters on the sail panels. I've got a bunch of equipment here and some ideas brewing. Let's see where it takes this vehicle...

EDIT: first up, she's in the shop today to get some tint installed. The last 2 vehicles didnt have any and I was getting abused by the sun in my daily commute. So as to stave off sunburns and skin cancer, time to darken it up a little.


----------



## chefhow

Congrats on the new ride!
You coming to Syracuse to hang out?


----------



## bertholomey

Great looking vehicle! I'm looking forward to seeing what the mad scientist has in store for it


----------



## captainobvious

chefhow said:


> Congrats on the new ride!
> You coming to Syracuse to hang out?


Thanks Howard!
Hmmm, not quite sure yet. Would be great to hang out and see some of these great cars. Hopefully I can get some work done on mine too. I'll certainly update in the meet thead if I think I'll be able to get out there.



bertholomey said:


> Great looking vehicle! I'm looking forward to seeing what the mad scientist has in store for it


:laugh:

You and me both!


----------



## Kellyo77

Really cool car, looks good! I'm curious where this goes.


----------



## fast4door

looking good I cant wait to see what you do with it..


----------



## mattyjman

sub'ing for this... looking forward to your build. nice car


----------



## kelrog

Subbed. I have a few albums I can share with you for what I've done on mine so far. 

Blacked out A-Pillars with Plexidip - link

Full *NC legal* tint around, with *not so legal* windshield tint with Llumar Air Blue 80 - link

Spare Tire Sub and Lighweight Amp Rack - link


----------



## captainobvious

kelrog said:


> Subbed. I have a few albums I can share with you for what I've done on mine so far.
> 
> Blacked out A-Pillars with Plexidip - link
> 
> Full *NC legal* tint around, with *not so legal* windshield tint with Llumar Air Blue 80 - link
> 
> Spare Tire Sub and Lighweight Amp Rack - link


 
Thanks!

I just got the tint job done on mine too. I didn't do the full windshield, just a bar at the top to keep the sun out of my eyes. I think it was 35%. Yours looks good, not too dark.


----------



## kelrog

I would have gone darker if I would have stayed in FL, but I knew I was moving to NC, and didn't want any issues with the state inspection (none in FL). 

The tint guys didn't want to put two layer of tint on the windshield, but I found that you don't need much more than the visors in this car compared to my RSX.


----------



## clix`g35

Good luck with you build, I just finished installing Peearless Nomex 6.5 mids in the doors of my friends 2012 Mazda 3. 

Let me say this, when you open the doors you will be surprised, there is no metal to mount the speakers on, they are mounted to the plastic cover. If its a beefy mid you will need to fabricate your own mounting solution and its not easy. Behind you will find a square hole that is not flat, so making a ring out of wood is out unless you have great carving skills, and the small black bar that holds the door when open, makes its way out to the surface in the middle of the awkward sized hole when you close the door, so after you mount the speaker you might find the magnet hits it and you cant close the door. 

Most people just make a speaker ring and mount it to the plastic. What ever you do just test fit first, and test fit + close the door to make sure its not hitting the speaker.


----------



## mrmill

nice car, the MS3 was on my radar before I went back to minitrucks. 

in for more pics.....


----------



## marshdrummer

Interested in how this goes! I have a skyactive hatch that I've been throwing idea's at. Now that clix chimed in with that great news....

Kelrog, what's the volume of your spare tire box? Nice job BTW....


----------



## captainobvious

clix`g35 said:


> Good luck with you build, I just finished installing Peearless Nomex 6.5 mids in the doors of my friends 2012 Mazda 3.
> 
> Let me say this, when you open the doors you will be surprised, there is no metal to mount the speakers on, they are mounted to the plastic cover. If its a beefy mid you will need to fabricate your own mounting solution and its not easy. Behind you will find a square hole that is not flat, so making a ring out of wood is out unless you have great carving skills, and the small black bar that holds the door when open, makes its way out to the surface in the middle of the awkward sized hole when you close the door, so after you mount the speaker you might find the magnet hits it and you cant close the door.
> 
> Most people just make a speaker ring and mount it to the plastic. What ever you do just test fit first, and test fit + close the door to make sure its not hitting the speaker.


 
Thanks for taking the time to let me know. I actually did a build in a 2005 Mazda 3 before this car and it was very similar construction to what you just stated. Same issues to overcome. I'm not sure yet how I want to approach the midbass in this car. I could try to go smaller with a 6.5"-7" (I had to do custom work to get 8"+ drivers in there last time) which I may end up doing to save myself from tons of extra work. I will likely work the kick panel area and/or the a-pillars for this car for mid/highs. I have to do some test fitting and see what kind of space I have available for the drivers in mind. I also just ordered a set of replacement factory plastics for the kicks and a pillars so I can chop away 

FYI- for other mazda owners looking to do similar things, you can find replacement parts for your car here: https://mazda-parts.com/partscat.html
You can find any of the interior panels and clips needed. This will allow me to work on the custom units and keep the car looking good while I fabricate some things. Also lets me put it back to stock very easily.

Replacement a-pillars are about $35-40 each and kickpanel covers are about $9 each. Not too bad. You could also look for junk yards and scrap them out of a wrecked car.


----------



## kelrog

The SI BM MK3 calls for .5 cubes, I think this came out to be .6 don't remember if I even measured it, as I wasn't going to put anything else in there. Initially I was going to make it isobaric, as I have 2 subs, but I didn't like how much room it was going to take up. I still need to make a nice trunk floor in there, but it's been cold.


----------



## kelrog

Btw, in case you guys need them. 

Mazda 3/Speed3 WorkShop Manual 07-09  2010+ - Interior Trim Manual 2010+

Bose Pinout 2010-2012, Not 100% on the 13.


----------



## captainobvious

Okay, Here are my initial thoughts about the installation for this vehicle. 

First up- the environment I'm working with. It's very similar to the previous car which was a 2005 Mazda 3 hatchback. These cars have fairly large pillars as well as about average space in the kick panel region. On both the drivers and passengers side kick well areas there are several wiring harnesses behind the plastic beauty panels. If I decide to mount drivers in these areas, I may have to do at least some minor relocation of some of these harnesses. Whether they can be moved easily, or will require soldering and extending remains to be seen. 
The doors have similar construction to the previous model with a plastic composite inner door skin that the factory speakers currently mount to. These are actually fairly solid and have alot of curvature which reduces resonance and increases strength. I think I can work with these although the factory speaker cutouts can accomodate a 6.5"...MAYBE a 7" max without major surgery.
The A pillars have a good amount of width which can accomodate a good sized driver. I could see a 3" plus tweeter, maybe even a 4" plus tweeter in the dash corners/a pillars being very doable.

Here are a few pictures of the interior areas and what I'm working with:

Drivers side kick 























































Pillars:


----------



## captainobvious

Passenger side:










Doors:


----------



## captainobvious

I took a few minutes to check basic fitment for the BG NEO10 and BG NEO3 pdr.

Checking pillar install:


























And a few options for NEO10s in the kicks:


----------



## captainobvious

And NEO3's in the pillars...?


----------



## captainobvious

I'm also going to attempt to do a 10" front sub in the passenger footwell. I've got a TC Sounds epic 10" to use and they have a very small airspace requirement. Should hopefully work nicely in a small sealed box up there.

In the doors, I'm looking at options for a 6.5-7" dedicated midbass driver. Open to suggestions! Right now on the list are the Dayton reference, Usher 8945A 7", Peerless SLS 6.5, Jordan JX125 and Exodus anarchy 6.5".


----------



## subwoofery

I could see it much closer to the door panel like so: 









Kelvin 

PS: don't mind the super photoshop skills I have


----------



## captainobvious

Lol Kelvin- no worries, my photoshop skills are about equal 

Yeah, I think the neo10's can be sunken in a bit more even without moving wiring harnesses as the enclosures would be integrated into the kickpanel cover. If I want to go deeper though, they orientation would have to change from more on axis horizontally and vertically, to more off axis on both accounts. I could remove the dead pedal to push them back a bit further, but here's my concern- If I build out the front sub enclosure, the passenger side neo10 wont be able to be sunk as deep into the kick as the drivers side will be. So what I'd end up with is one driver more on axis on both planes than the other. I would probably need alot of EQ to correct frequency response differences there.

What are your thoughts on kickpanel vs a pillars for the neo10's? Cosmetically, they would look much better down low of course.


----------



## kelrog

oh btw, forgot to tell you, not sure if the 05 had this but, if you look behind the glove box, there is a very large space to put a small amp, dsp, or cpu.


----------



## phxdemon

In for this build! What is you opinion on the neo10s vs the neo8s?


----------



## captainobvious

kelrog said:


> oh btw, forgot to tell you, not sure if the 05 had this but, if you look behind the glove box, there is a very large space to put a small amp, dsp, or cpu.


Yup! The 2005 had it too. That's actually where I located the DC-DC converter for the DRZ9255 

Thanks!

Ive got dsp's and line drivers available here too for this install so thats a good spot to mount some of those things if needed.


----------



## captainobvious

phxdemon said:


> In for this build! What is you opinion on the neo10s vs the neo8s?


I'm of little use in that department unfortunately. I havent gotten any significant listening time in on either. Once I get these tested out, I'll be sure to give my thoughts though.


----------



## subwoofery

captainobvious said:


> Lol Kelvin- no worries, my photoshop skills are about equal
> 
> Yeah, I think the neo10's can be sunken in a bit more even without moving wiring harnesses as the enclosures would be integrated into the kickpanel cover. If I want to go deeper though, they orientation would have to change from more on axis horizontally and vertically, to more off axis on both accounts. I could remove the dead pedal to push them back a bit further, but here's my concern- If I build out the front sub enclosure, the passenger side neo10 wont be able to be sunk as deep into the kick as the drivers side will be. So what I'd end up with is one driver more on axis on both planes than the other. I would probably need alot of EQ to correct frequency response differences there.
> 
> What are your thoughts on kickpanel vs a pillars for the neo10's? Cosmetically, they would look much better down low of course.


If you don't mind going with pillars, then I suggest you hook them up and take a listen  Yeah, I'm sure you were waiting for that  

Suggest you contact George too (CVJoint), since he has extensive use of the BG 10s. I thought that the BG planars needed aiming and looking closer to a home setup but George said otherwise...

Kelvin


----------



## captainobvious

subwoofery said:


> If you don't mind going with pillars, then I suggest you hook them up and take a listen  Yeah, I'm sure you were waiting for that
> 
> Suggest you contact George too (CVJoint), since he has extensive use of the BG 10s. I thought that the BG planars needed aiming and looking closer to a home setup but George said otherwise...
> 
> Kelvin


From what I understand, they have poor vertical off axis response, but excellent horizontal. That is why they may end up performing better for me in the kickpanel area because I can get them very on-axis in both planes. From an aesthetics standpoint, They should also lookmuch better down there where they wont make noticeable bulges in the pillars and decrease visibility.

I've read up on George's threads (here and elsewhere) on his experiences with the NEO10 and they have been really helpful. I remember him saying his response was still excellent even when they were off axis quite a bit in the kicks. I'm going to go back and read up on it again. Of course, that is all dependent on the environment since were driving completely different cars too.


----------



## Sea Shadow

captainobvious said:


> In the doors, I'm looking at options for a 6.5-7" dedicated midbass driver. Open to suggestions! Right now on the list are the Dayton reference, Usher 8945A 7", Peerless SLS 6.5, Jordan JX125 and Exodus anarchy 6.5".


I have been slowly installing a system in my 2010 MZ3 sedan and I was able to BARELY fit the Dayton RS 180s in the front doors. I used my 3D printer to make custom rings for the speakers and I still had to cut out a tiny piece of sheet metal on the car door. For some reason the speaker cutout in the plastic panel doesn't match up with the sheet metal behind it... This is only an issue for the front doors, the rears have no sheet metal obstructing the factory speaker locations.

When all is said and done, I have ~2mm clearance to the window from the rear of the driver (with rubber boot) and the front face of the speakers is just shy of an internal lip of plastic on the door panel. Which I'm sure you remember from your last Mazda (I noticed both generations have that lip when I was installing some speakers in my brothers 1st gen hatch).

I still need to set up a buildlog for my project but hopefully that gives you a general idea for clearance. I'm currently debating cutting up the door panels so I can fit the RS 225's, but I can confirm that the 180's will barely fit behind the factory panels (at least on the sedan, but I imagine the hatch isn't too terribly different).

EDIT: This picture from when I was deadening the doors shows that blasted sheet metal I am talking about. It is that awkward little loop at the bottom left of the shot. That hole (sort of) lines up with the stock speaker location but the right edge of that hole obstructs the speaker cutout in the plastic panel. I had to cut a piece out that was ~.75" wide and 3.5" tall from that loop so that the magnet would even fit on my RS 180.


----------



## captainobvious

Seashadow- Thanks!

I havent seen any pics of the door metal that lies beneath the plastic-composite inner door skin on the 2010-2013 Mazdas yet. The previous model didnt have that little cross section you show above so there was even less metal to mount to.

Check this out:
You can see inside of the speaker baffle/ring where the door metal would need to be trimmed out to allow for the new driver.









Snip snip...


----------



## clix`g35

at the top left corner of the small square whole where the speaker would be mounted, when the door is closed, there is a small black rod that is used to keep the door from swinging open, that when the door is closed protrudes into that space, and it has a pretty large plastic triangle as the end cap. 

Just a heads up, I mounted the doors on this car before only to find out we cant close them because this crashes into the speaker magnet. 

Good luck.


----------



## Grimm

Watching this thread as I did your last one. I've got an 08 speed3 that I'm piecing together components for, nothing crazy just need to dump the factory garbage for something that actually has decent range.

Especially interested in the rear door speakers, as I'm thinking of putting a set of low profile 6.5" subs in mine to fill in a little midbass but I haven't had the panels off yet to see how it will work. 




kelrog said:


> Btw, in case you guys need them.
> 
> Mazda 3/Speed3 WorkShop Manual 07-09  2010+ - Interior Trim Manual 2010+
> 
> Bose Pinout 2010-2012, Not 100% on the 13.


Cheers for this post! I needed that 07-09 workshop manual. 2900+ pages though? Guess I'll just print it up 100 pages at a time at work and hope nobody notices.


----------



## captainobvious

clix`g35 said:


> at the top left corner of the small square whole where the speaker would be mounted, when the door is closed, there is a small black rod that is used to keep the door from swinging open, that when the door is closed protrudes into that space, and it has a pretty large plastic triangle as the end cap.
> 
> Just a heads up, I mounted the doors on this car before only to find out we cant close them because this crashes into the speaker magnet.
> 
> Good luck.


Yup I noiced that with the 2005 model as well. Once I get the door panel off, Ill measure it out and make sure I have the clearance needed. 
Thanks.


----------



## kelrog

Grimm said:


> Cheers for this post! I needed that 07-09 workshop manual. 2900+ pages though? Guess I'll just print it up 100 pages at a time at work and hope nobody notices.


Glad to help. Don't forget to do double sided.


----------



## kelrog

captainobvious said:


> Yup I noiced that with the 2005 model as well. Once I get the door panel off, Ill measure it out and make sure I have the clearance needed.
> Thanks.


I'm sure you'll post some good pics of that too.


----------



## captainobvious

OK. I've got some of my supplies in (power and speaker wire, sound deadening supplies, etc) so today I took a more in depth look up front to see what I'm working with.

Under the carpet:




The foam footrest block





...and under the foam...


----------



## captainobvious

This is a good representation of how much space is actually down there...This is an M&K Peerless SLS 8.







Plenty of clearance between the clutch pedal too.


----------



## captainobvious

I'll need to get the wheel off and see how much clearance there is from that wall to the wheel well. If I'm able to cut into that area, I could fit a 9-10" driver in there. I probably wouldn't need an up front sub with 10" midbasses. If not, I can fit 8"ers in there fairly easily. That's great news as it means I could keep the mids and midbasses in the kicks and not have to fight the doors and the resonance issues they would pose with a large woofer in there.
It will of course require some work. I'll have to move the wiring in the kick panels and fiberglass some custom panels to accomodate the drivers. Hell, that's not even a daunting task considering the work it would have taken for a full on door build.


----------



## edouble101

Nifty cubbie hole there for a midbass driver!


----------



## subiemax

Subscribed! 
Just bought a new 2013 Mazdaspeed3 today.
Also have a set of Intimid8rs coming in soon. Be following closely.


----------



## 3MPS23

subiemax said:


> Subscribed!
> Just bought a new 2013 Mazdaspeed3 today.
> Also have a set of Intimid8rs coming in soon. Be following closely.


+1
I'v got a 2010 3 MPS (Australian Mazdaspeed3), so very keen to see where this goes. 
Good luck mate.

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk HD


----------



## captainobvious

subiemax said:


> Subscribed!
> Just bought a new 2013 Mazdaspeed3 today.
> Also have a set of Intimid8rs coming in soon. Be following closely.


Hey that's awesome! Congrats on the new MS3  What color did u go with ? My second choice what the white pearl- really nice looking.

Hopefully my build thread can offer some insight for you when you work on yours. That is, if you plan to !


----------



## captainobvious

edouble101 said:


> Nifty cubbie hole there for a midbass driver!


Yeah I was surprised how much space was available. Even more if you have an automatic mazda 3 as you wouldnt have a clutch pedal. The doors on these have a full plastic inner door insert just like the last model so making a large driver fit is very tricky and extremely labor intensive. And that's for "ok" results. The kick panels should hopefully work much better.


----------



## captainobvious

3MPS23 said:


> +1
> I'v got a 2010 3 MPS (Australian Mazdaspeed3), so very keen to see where this goes.
> Good luck mate.
> 
> Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk HD


Thanks!


----------



## subiemax

captainobvious said:


> Hey that's awesome! Congrats on the new MS3  What color did u go with ? My second choice what the white pearl- really nice looking.
> 
> Hopefully my build thread can offer some insight for you when you work on yours. That is, if you plan to !


Definately plan on a system. Got the silver. LOved the white, but the only one they had was loaded and I wanted a base.
Good car so far. The seats kind of suck tho, maybe its just that the FRS I came from were awesome.


----------



## quality_sound

Why would you go from an FR-S to an MS3? Space?


----------



## subiemax

quality_sound said:


> Why would you go from an FR-S to an MS3? Space?


Yes. 2 kids in seats. THought I could do it. Fought the good fight, but it just drove me crazy. The FRS/BRZ is a special car, and ive had quite a few, just not a good time in my life for it. The MS3 aint bad tho, and I have missed torque.


----------



## benny

Looking good so far Steve! *jealous of your kicks*


----------



## captainobvious

subiemax said:


> Definately plan on a system. Got the silver. LOved the white, but the only one they had was loaded and I wanted a base.
> Good car so far. The seats kind of suck tho, maybe its just that the FRS I came from were awesome.


I actually like the seats. I also liked the FRS seats as well, so maybe they'll just take you a bit of getting used to.


----------



## captainobvious

benny said:


> Looking good so far Steve! *jealous of your kicks*


Hey thanks Benny! Been a while bud 

They look like they should work nicely. I'll know better once I figure out the clearance in that panel.


----------



## quality_sound

subiemax said:


> Yes. 2 kids in seats. THought I could do it. Fought the good fight, but it just drove me crazy. The FRS/BRZ is a special car, and ive had quite a few, just not a good time in my life for it. The MS3 aint bad tho, and I have missed torque.


Yeah I hear that. I sold my JCW Clubman after my divorce because my dog wouldn't fit in it. Kids were fine though. lol


----------



## subiemax

After driving it a bit, I don't think I could get rid of the dead pedal. My foot is just always there.
I'm thinking a front sub in the passenge wheelwell and a mid_bass crossed over kind of high in the door. Maybe a mid and tweet in the pillar.
Any ideas how bad the stock hu is?


----------



## captainobvious

subiemax said:


> After driving it a bit, I don't think I could get rid of the dead pedal. My foot is just always there.
> I'm thinking a front sub in the passenge wheelwell and a mid_bass crossed over kind of high in the door. Maybe a mid and tweet in the pillar.
> Any ideas how bad the stock hu is?


Ditching the dead pedal just takes some getting used to (foot positioning while driving). I did it in the old Lancer as well.

Your option for midbasses in doors and a front sub was my initial thought too. Seeing how much space I have available in the kicks though is what has changed my mind on that one. Doing doors is a pain and ridding them of resonance is almost impossible.


----------



## subiemax

Oh, I hate doors for sure!. Looking at it, the dead pedal could be moved to the right a good bit and narrowed some. I need a dead pedal on track and autocross. Really helps to brace yourself. 
Tons of space in this car for to do just about anything. Excited!
So have you built the pods yet.....lol


----------



## captainobvious

subiemax said:


> Oh, I hate doors for sure!. Looking at it, the dead pedal could be moved to the right a good bit and narrowed some. I need a dead pedal on track and autocross. Really helps to brace yourself.
> Tons of space in this car for to do just about anything. Excited!
> So have you built the pods yet.....lol


:laugh:

That's gonna take some time 

I planned a few days off next week though so that's likely when I'll begin the teardown and rebuild. I just ordered my fiberglass supplies today so they should be here in plenty of time.


----------



## subiemax

Might be picking up a set of Morel cm88 and mt250 to go in either pillars or a pod in the dash corners. The mt22s I had were my favorite tweets I ever had, so hopefully the 250s are even better. And a sealed dome would be great as it doesnt need any space. And I have the AP 8s on preorder. Dont know if I want to go that big in the kicks, so I'll be watching your build closely. 
Going to start off with the stock deck and the 120.4dsp. Might go with a processor and amps if I decide to ad a sub.


----------



## quality_sound

captainobvious said:


> Ditching the dead pedal just takes some getting used to (foot positioning while driving). I did it in the old Lancer as well.



That depends on how you drive your cars. I NEED my dead pedals.


----------



## captainobvious

subiemax said:


> Might be picking up a set of Morel cm88 and mt250 to go in either pillars or a pod in the dash corners. The mt22s I had were my favorite tweets I ever had, so hopefully the 250s are even better. And a sealed dome would be great as it doesnt need any space. And I have the AP 8s on preorder. Dont know if I want to go that big in the kicks, so I'll be watching your build closely.
> Going to start off with the stock deck and the 120.4dsp. Might go with a processor and amps if I decide to ad a sub.


I also have the AP Intimid8r on preorder. Just not sure if thats the ticket for me yet. Realistically, I'll probably end up having to do 8's in the kicks to fit the large mid's so Ive got several choices swimming around in the head right now. I want lots of SD and xmax to move some air.
I love the features of the stock deck for sure. I just don't know if I can live with that sacrifice of sound quality from the source. I hope it works out well for you.




quality_sound said:


> That depends on how you drive your cars. I NEED my dead pedals.


True, it's a personal thing. I can get this car moving just fine though without using the deadpedal


----------



## captainobvious

Yeah, it looks like I'm not going to be able to fit both a 10" and the massive NEO10's in the kicks. My options are to either go with an 8" midbass and neo10 in kicks, or do a 10" in the kicks and neo10s in the pillars...
If I went with a 10" in the kicks alone, I'm looking at the Scan 23W 9" aluminum "sub", Scan 26W Aluminum cone 10", and Seas magnesium W26FX-001 10"


Scanspeak 23W/4557T-02 9" Aluminum cone revelator SUBWOOFER
FS 21hz
QTS 0.47
SD 232 cm2
XMAX 13mm linear [232x13mm=3016]
OD 10.04"
Depth 5.32"
Cutout 9" 

Scanspeak 26W/4867T 10" Aluminum cone Revelator woofer
FS 18hz
QTS 0.29
SD 320 cm2
XMAX 9mm linear [320x9mm=2880]
OD 10.24"
Depth 4.9"
cutout 9.2" 

Seas Excel W26FX-001 (E0026) 10" Magnesium cone woofer
FS 20hz
QTS 0.35
SD 330 cm2
XMAX 7mm linear [330x7mm=2310]
OD 10.6"
Depth 4.31"
Cutout 9.13"

EDIT: That is, unless I place the 10" about 90 degrees off axis. Not sure how that would play out though...


----------



## bassfromspace

captainobvious said:


> Yeah, it looks like I'm not going to be able to fit both a 10" and the massive NEO10's in the kicks. My options are to either go with an 8" midbass and neo10 in kicks, or do a 10" in the kicks and neo10s in the pillars...
> If I went with a 10" in the kicks alone, I'm looking at the Scan 23W 9" aluminum "sub", Scan 26W Aluminum cone 10", and Seas magnesium W26FX-001 10"


My plan for my planars is to mount them dipole onto a piece of smoked plexiglas and to attach them to the sail panel via a movable home audio speaker mount. I got this idea after reading Andy's posts in the huge ms-8 thread.


----------



## quality_sound

captainobvious said:


> I just don't know if I can live with that sacrifice of sound quality from the source.


Might not actually be a sacrifice.



> True, it's a personal thing. I can get this car moving just fine though without using the deadpedal


Getting it moving isn't the issue. Having a stable place to propery place your foot on a track is.


----------



## captainobvious

bassfromspace said:


> My plan for my planars is to mount them dipole onto a piece of smoked plexiglas and to attach them to the sail panel via a movable home audio speaker mount. I got this idea after reading Andy's posts in the huge ms-8 thread.


What size are your planars?


Regarding the space in kicks, here's what I mean...

This is a full sized 10" sub with a 5.6" mounting depth. Its also butting up against the wiring harnesses in the kick area which would be relocated so that would free up another 2 inches or so.


----------



## quality_sound

holy ****


----------



## captainobvious

quality_sound said:


> Might not actually be a sacrifice.
> 
> 
> 
> Getting it moving isn't the issue. Having a stable place to propery place your foot on a track is.


Yeah I could see that. For me it's not an issue as I'm not tracking this car, but if you are, I'd take the function as well.


----------



## captainobvious

quality_sound said:


> holy ****


----------



## bassfromspace

captainobvious said:


> What size are your planars?
> 
> 
> Regarding the space in kicks, here's what I mean...
> 
> This is a full sized 10" sub with a 5.6" mounting depth. Its also butting up against the wiring harnesses in the kick area which would be relocated so that would free up another 2 inches or so.


Neo 8's.


----------



## kelrog

yup, that isn't fitting under the seat. 

ever thought about putting it up under/behind the glovebox? maybe cut into the cavern from the bottom, and do a plexiglass front piece that you could see the sub in there.


----------



## captainobvious

kelrog said:


> yup, that isn't fitting under the seat.
> 
> ever thought about putting it up under/behind the glovebox? maybe cut into the cavern from the bottom, and do a plexiglass front piece that you could see the sub in there.


Well it could certainly fit in the footwell of the passenger side. That was the original plan before I decided to go with midbasses in the kicks


----------



## mattyjman

quite a bit of space there....

how much do you value your dead pedal though?? 

in my last car with 10" mids I didn't have a dead pedal, and although it was an auto, after getting into my camaro now, i realize how much i missed having the ability to stretch out my left leg a bit rather then keeping it bent... 

just something to consider, although i'm sure you have already thought about it. 

looking forward to seeing what you do here


----------



## kelrog

captainobvious said:


> Well it could certainly fit in the footwell of the passenger side. That was the original plan before I decided to go with midbasses in the kicks


oh. from the size of those, didn't see you were going to use them as midbasses. sheesh. talk about ankle spl.


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks Matt. Yeah I'm actually totally ok with it. I mean it's getting stretched out everytime it's on the clutch anyway 

I'm thinking 10" mids are outski on this build now. There just won't be enough space for both the massive neo10 and a 10" driver down there unless its a really shallow 10 with a small magnet. I would have considered using the SB Acoustics 10" shallow sub actually, but its outer diameter is basically that of a damn 12".





mattyjman said:


> quite a bit of space there....
> 
> how much do you value your dead pedal though??
> 
> in my last car with 10" mids I didn't have a dead pedal, and although it was an auto, after getting into my camaro now, i realize how much i missed having the ability to stretch out my left leg a bit rather then keeping it bent...
> 
> just something to consider, although i'm sure you have already thought about it.
> 
> looking forward to seeing what you do here


----------



## captainobvious

I've also looked at these though too:

10W500 - LF Ferrite Driver

http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product_simple&pid=326


----------



## Boostedrex

I've liked every driver I've heard from both 18sound and Faital Pro. Hard to go wrong there.


----------



## bassfromspace

Check into the B&C 10cl51 (I think that's the model number) on P.E.


----------



## captainobvious

bassfromspace said:


> Check into the B&C 10cl51 (I think that's the model number) on P.E.


Thanks!

Yeah there's a few really nice pro woofers between B&C 18Sound, etc.
Some of the better pro woofers will have a good advantage over the Seas/Scan drivers in the 70hz and up range at 1w input. I just have to model them to see if the additional sensitivity will offset the lower xmax and quicker roll off (higher FS).


----------



## bassfromspace

captainobvious said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Yeah there's a few really nice pro woofers between B&C 18Sound, etc.
> Some of the better pro woofers will have a good advantage over the Seas/Scan drivers in the 70hz and up range at 1w input. I just have to model them to see if the additional sensitivity will offset the lower xmax and quicker roll off (higher FS).


Yeppers.

I happened across them while browsing for mid bass. Will your mid bass' be vented to the outside.?

Please post your models when completed.


----------



## captainobvious

bassfromspace said:


> Yeppers.
> 
> I happened across them while browsing for mid bass. Will your mid bass' be vented to the outside.?


I'm thinking yes. Once I model a few of the options up, I'll have a better idea.



bassfromspace said:


> Please post your models when completed.


Will do !


----------



## edouble101

If you are still contemplating a 10" sub in the kicks (I would do it!!) check out the Tang Band WT-1427G 10" Neo Subwoofer. I think this driver would be perfect for your install.


----------



## edouble101

Note the low le, low fs, high bl, decent xmax, it's enclosure requirement s super tiny and uber flat freq response beyond 200hz.


----------



## captainobvious

Why are high QTS drivers always recommended as the best for an IB application? Can low QTS bass/midbass drivers be used effectively in infinite baffle installations? If so, what characteristics must they have? Is it simply a matter of running out of xmax before they achieve a desired SPL because of suspension compliance? In trying to select a driver or two for testing in my own installation, I've tried to simulate the differences to see what happens. 

I know that alot of this info has been covered in one way or another in different threads, but I'm trying to understand it in my application and in theory so I can make more informed decisions down the road as well. I'd like to post what I'm seeing and what I *think* is happening, and then hopefully some of you guys with more knowledge than me will be willing to chime in to correct my mistakes or point out some things I may be missing/haven't considered. 
This mainly came about because of my curiosity with pro audio drivers and trying to benefit from the high sensitivity.

Let's look at 3 different drivers:


A proaudio woofer. Low QTS, high sensitivity
B&C 10NW64
QTS 0.26
QMS 4.50
QES 0.27
VAS 26.9L
FS 50 hz
Le .47
xmax 8mm one way
SPL 96db

A low Qts/ Low FS driver
Scanspeak Revelator 22W8857T-00
QTS 0.30
QMS 4.90
QES 0.32
VAS 87.7
FS 23Hz
Le 0.35
xmax 9mm one way
SPL 86db

A high QTS driver
JL Audio ZR800
QTS 0.662
QMS 11.667
QES 0.702
VAS 22.29
FS 46.27
xmax 9mm one way
SPL 87db


Let's model these and start with the baselines. 
Here is the 1Watt/1Meter SPL graph of each of the three drivers in their .707 Q modeled sealed enclosures:
YELLOW = Scanspeak 22W
GREEN = B&C
BLUE = JL ZR


Here is the F3 rolloff graph for each of these drivers in their .707 Q sealed enclosures:



And their 1W/1M cone excursion (in mm) in their .707Q sealed enclosures...



What I see off the bat without changing the enclosures to simulate IB, and without adding additional power to the equation is that the JL and Scanspeak roll off at a much lower frequency (lower FS) and the B&C has considerably more output above about 120hz due to the higher sensitivity. Cone excursion is not a factor even without a filter at this low power.

Now lets increase the enclosure size to 40 cubic feet to simulate infinite baffle for these drivers.

SPL:



F3:



Simulating 40 cubic feet of airspace makes the drivers roll off at a much slower rate allowing for more low frequency extension, however it removes the acoustic spring that a sealed box provides which would help to limit excursion. This means that the driver is relying on its motor and the stiffness of it's suspension to control excursion.

So what happens then if I add some power to the equation? 

Here's the cone excursion at 50 watts:




And here it is at 100 watts:



The red line is at 9mm xmax. In this IB simulation with no filters applied, here is how it models:

At 50 watts, the JL reaches xmax first at about 44hz. The Scan follows next at about 38hz at and the B&C runs out at about 22hz.

At 100 watts, the JL hits xmax at about 59hz, the Scan at 52hz and the B&C at 33hz.

Of course once you apply crossover filters, this changes a bit...

If I apply a 60hz 24db (LR) high pass filter on each, here's how it shakes out:

The JL will reach xmax at 380 watts input power, however it's rated for 125 watts continuous.
The Scanspeak will reach xmax at about 560 watts input power, however it's rated for 170 continuous.
The B&C will reach xmax at 1000 watts input power, however it's power rating is 300 watts continuous.

Each of these are modeled at their continuous power handling in these graphs:

SPL:



Cone Excursion:




I know what you're thinking, yeah the B&C is a larger 10" driver and has better thermal properties- very true. To be more fair, here is a look at some B&C pro audio 8" competition:

In RED is the B&C 8BG51. It has 250 watts continuous power handling, and is rated for 6.5mm xmax. 

In WHITE is the B&C 8NDL51. It has 200 watts continuous power handling and 7mm xmax. 

In ORANGE is the B&C 8MDN51. It has 200 watts continuous power handling and 6mm of xmax.

SPL:



Cone Excursion:


----------



## captainobvious

Since the pro audio drivers have a higher FS and begin rolling off sooner, their low frequency response (Maybe 80hz and down) compared to a low FS home driver is close to a wash in this case because of either thermal limitations or xmax. You can still get more output from the B&C 8BG51 than the excellent JL ZR800, but you have to have significantly more power to achieve it. At 125 watts input power (The JL's rating) it bests the competition here.

What I found interesting is that these higher FS and lower QTS drivers still modeled well in this application. Are there any other issues that arise from a a higher FS or lower QTS that I haven't considered here?


----------



## bassfromspace

interesting.


----------



## bbfoto

Thanks for the comparisons. Got to digest it all now to interpret the results.


----------



## subwoofery

Won't write big post coz there's a nice explantion here... please read: SIDEBAR: SYSTEM “Q” 

Usually a driver with a Qts of less than 0.35 is better suited for vented while a Qts above 0.35 is better suited for sealed alignments... 
That's just a generalization coz what's really important is the EBP (efficiency bandwidth product) 

I once read that a driver with a Qts below 0.35 can still work in a sealed enclosure as long as you cross it 2 times above FS with a 12dB/oct slope - crossing 2 times above FS = don't worry about the Qts of the driver 

Meaning, that B&C 10" driver can work great sealed if you cross it @ 100Hz 12dB/oct slope (50Hz x 2) 
My guideline usually is that you can go 1/3 octave lower per 6dB/oct slope - so 100Hz 12dB/oct, 80Hz 18dB/oct & 63Hz 24dB/oct are all good 

Kelvin


----------



## captainobvious

subwoofery said:


> Won't write big post coz there's a nice explantion here... please read: SIDEBAR: SYSTEM “Q”
> 
> Usually a driver with a Qts of less than 0.35 is better suited for vented while a Qts above 0.35 is better suited for sealed alignments...
> That's just a generalization coz what's really important is the EBP (efficiency bandwidth product)
> 
> I once read that a driver with a Qts below 0.35 can still work in a sealed enclosure as long as you cross it 2 times above FS with a 12dB/oct slope - crossing 2 times above FS = don't worry about the Qts of the driver
> 
> Meaning, that B&C 10" driver can work great sealed if you cross it @ 100Hz 12dB/oct slope (50Hz x 2)
> My guideline usually is that you can go 1/3 octave lower per 6dB/oct slope - so 100Hz 12dB/oct, 80Hz 18dB/oct & 63Hz 24dB/oct are all good
> 
> Kelvin


Kelvin-

Thanks for the link. The section on system Q was very helpful. I have a couple of questions for you though about your comments above.

Why should a speaker be crossed well above its FS? What happens at its resonant frequency that would be "bad"? Is it simply the impedance spike? What does that translate to in frequency response? The drivers above were modeled in an essentially infinite baffle scenario. Does FS really make a difference at that point since there's no change in Q from an enclosure?

I guess what I'm saying is, looking at the graphs posted above, check out the B&C 10NW64 (green lines on graphs). It has an FS of 50hz. When simulating the driver in IB like the others, it still had very usable looking bass response despite its higher FS and lower Qts. Now, with the *same* input power as say the JL, it doesnt have as much output in that 100hz and down range, but it also has higher power handling so can yield more output if the power is available. (as you see in the graphs with 300 watts applied)
Couldn't it be used in the same range (60hz HPF applied) with no adverse effects or am I missing something else?

Thanks for taking the time to respond. 

Edit: Duh, you're last sentence is basically the way I have it modeled. 60hz -24db slope...


----------



## subwoofery

captainobvious said:


> Kelvin-
> 
> Thanks for the link. The section on system Q was very helpful. I have a couple of questions for you though about your comments above.
> 
> Why should a speaker be crossed well above its FS? What happens at its resonant frequency that would be "bad"? Is it simply the impedance spike? What does that translate to in frequency response? The drivers above were modeled in an essentially infinite baffle scenario. Does FS really make a difference at that point since there's no change in Q from an enclosure?
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is, looking at the graphs posted above, check out the B&C 10NW64 (green lines on graphs). It has an FS of 50hz. When simulating the driver in IB like the others, it still had very usable looking bass response despite its higher FS and lower Qts. Now, with the *same* input power as say the JL, it doesnt have as much output in that 100hz and down range, but it also has higher power handling so can yield more output if the power is available. (as you see in the graphs with 300 watts applied)
> Couldn't it be used in the same range (60hz HPF applied) with no adverse effects or am I missing something else?
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to respond.
> 
> Edit: Duh, you're last sentence is basically the way I have it modeled. 60hz -24db slope...


Again, better explanation from someone more knowledgeable than me (who's first language isn't French like myself ): 


Tendean17 said:


> Andy Wehmeyer :
> Raise the crossover frequency between the midbass and the sub and work on the EQ between 60 and 160Hz. Sounds counterintuitive, but it works. THe rule here is NOT to drive speakers (other than subwoofers) at or near their resonance.
> 
> it doesn't matter that frequencies above 100Hz are direectional, what matters is that between 80-200 Hz, a 6" speaker radiates the sound in all directions. Aiming doesn't matter at all--not one bit--zip--zilch--nada. THe problem is the difference in distance from each to your ears (arrival times) and the frequency response at the ftansition from bass to midbass
> 
> Raise the other one to 80 Hz too. Then adjust time first, then level, then EQ, then you may have to readjust level.
> __________________________________________________ ____________
> 
> Lycan:
> I'll second that : a 6" speaker has no choice but to radiate frequencies below 200Hz uniformly, in ALL directions. So up to 200Hz, it does NOT matter how the speakers are aimed. Note well : this is NOT the same thing as saying it doesn't matter how you aim your 6" speaker You really gotta understand the difference between these two statements.
> 
> And I'll elaborate on Andy's point about operating a midbass well away from it's resonant frequency (Fs, in enclosure). The reason has little to do with its amplitude response, but lots to do with its phase response. Any driver in a sealed enclosure (including leaky ones, and IB) has a 2nd order high-pass response, phase included, so it's PHASE at the crossover to the sub will dramatically impact it's "acoustic summation" with the sub. The closer you operate the midbass to its resonance, the more its phase will be deviating from zero degrees. So the PHASE response of the midbass-in-enclosure, near the crossover to the sub, needs to be comprehended. This means one of two things :
> 
> 1. Be prepared to measure & equalize appropriately (with linkwitz transformer ... yes, on the midbass ... or all-pass phase eq, or combination of both). Remember, we're not equalizing the amplitude so much as equalizing the phase ... so your 31-band graphic or parametric ain't gonna cut it.
> 
> 2. OR ... simply operate the midbass well above its resonance, to avoid phase problems at xover to sub
> __________________________________________________ ____________
> 
> Andy Wehmeyer :
> Ahhh...but the real reason not to operate a speaker near its resonance is because that's where it produces the most distortion and at multiples of resonance. That distortion cannot be filtered electrically (yet), and it's high-frequency content that makes localizing the speaker easier. Couple that with all the turbulent air movement when the cone has to move a long way and it's a recipe for winning the "Where's Waldo" game.
> 
> Seriously, minimize the excursion and the system will get well fast.
> 
> I have all kinds of all pass filter capability in my car and i've never used it successfully to blend the sub and midbass. It's always more hassle than it's worth. I don't use any delay between subs and midbass either. It's all about amplitude and smooth response froom 60-160Hz. Any phase problem will show up as a frequency response problem too--since the car is small and the wavelengths are long. Just focus on amplitude, remembering that phase problems will present in the frequency response domain too. Start with the midbass, midrange and high frequency speakers first and be sure that right and left sum for a good center image and then add the sub. Start with the midbass crossover at 80Hz, no matter the size of the speaker and add the sub. Adjust the level until you have the amout of low stuff that you require and then plug in the RTA and smooth everything so it's flat from 20-60 and then a gradual and smooth slope down to 160Hz.


Then if you want to read more about it: 


Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well...sigh...sort of...but it isn't easy to parse the useful info from the nonsense.
> 
> Start here:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum.../129299-designed-sealed-ported-explained.html
> 
> Here's a little more:
> 
> The rule of thumb in systems engineering for speakers is that we try to avoid using them at their resonance, because that's where distortion is highest--that IS resonance. look at the distortion curves of any good speaker and you'll see a big bump at Fs, followed by what should be a deep and wide dip in distortion through the mid band followed by a rise at high frequencies. So, cross a speaker over above resonance and below where the cone shape distortions cause a rise in the distortion and you have a good, low distortion system. It's helpful and coincidental that the rise in distortion at high frequencies often happens at or above the frequency where dispersion starts to narrow. The use of "widebander" break this basic rule of system design and the engineers who use them often use them in systems where cost doesn't allow for a tweeter. (OK...I'm not going to rant anymore here about widebanders as full range drivers).
> 
> It isn't practical to develop woofers that have a resonance frequency below 20Hz for many applications and fortunately, it isn't necessary. We don't hear distortion at low frequencies easily. So, subwoofers are almost ALWAYS used at and below resonance. In fact, resonance (Fs or Fc) is often right in the middle of the band of frequencies over which we use a sub.
> 
> Thiele and Small parameters were developed to make modeling the performance of the subwoofer AT AND SLIGHTLY ABOVE RESONANCE possible. It's all based on high pass filter design and the analogous nature of mechanical and electrical parameters. The suspension of the speaker is analogous to capacitance (stores energy in the from of voltage). The mass of the speaker is analogous to inductance (stores energy in the form of current) and mechanical loss (like friction) is analogous to resistance.
> 
> The Fs of a speaker, just like an electrical filter is the frequency at which capacitive reactance and inductive reactance are the same. In a speaker, lots of energy is stored in the mechanical system which causes the cone to move when the signal goes away. The movement of the cone (and voice coil) creates a voltage in the motor and current flows. Energy is also stored in the coil's inductance and the dissipaton of that energy through the coil's DCR also causes the speaker to move when the signal goes away. We recognize that energy dissipation as resistance and that's why there's a big peak in the impedance of the speaker at resonance. We call it resistance but the resistance is caused by the flow of current FROM the speaker.
> 
> The speaker is a resonator (mechanical) and analogous to an oscillator in the electrical domain. Q (which stands for "quality"--don't mistake that for an indication of good or bad when we're talking about speakers) is an indication of the damping of the system. Electrical filters are often used to select a frequency at which something will operate. A high Q filter is designed to have a very narrow band of frequencies over which the filter operates. For a radio tuner, a high Q filter provides higher selectivity--we can tune the frequency of a high Q filter to better hone in on a certain frequency (thus the "high quality" or high Q moniker). A low Q filter is less selective and operates over a wider band of frequencies.
> 
> Since T&S parameters were developed to make modeling the low frequency roll off of a speaker possible using an electrical filter analogue, Q is also important. The analogue for Q is more complicated. In a speaker, the electrical response isn't as important as the mechanical one. In a speaker we're not concerned with selectivity of a filter, we're concerned about the damping in the circuit. Damping is an indication of how quickly the energy stored in the speaker's mechanical and electrical components is dissipated. More damping means the energy is dissipated more quickly so the speaker comes to rest when the signal goes away--it better tracks the electrical signal that's sent to it. Less damping (higher Q) means the energy is dissipated more slowly (remember that the energy is dissipated through the voice coil's DCR and current flowing through the coil causes movement and that keep the woofer moving after the signal from the amp stops).
> 
> OK, so low Q woofers are much better than high q woofers because they're more accurate, right? No. Confused yet?
> 
> If we extend the range of flat response, we get more low bass that sounds good. Since we're using our woofer at resonance, we're using it in a range of frequencies where its magnitude (frequency) response is rolling off--it's what makes the analogue possible. So, the lower the Q, the shallower the rolloff. The higher the Q, the steeper the rolloff. Additionally, the higher the Q the more ringing we get which adds bass at resonance and flattens the shape of the rolloff.
> 
> .707 is the Q for a second order (12dB/octave) high pass filter that offers the best compromise between low frequency extension and flat response, which is why that value of Q is often the target for enclosure and speaker designs. Got it so far?
> 
> OK, so if .707 is our design goal, then we have to do something to raise the Q or to boost the bass from our system to get there. If we're going to do it after the amp, then there are two possibilities. We change the parameters of the woofer by changing the mechanical and electrical parts to get to .707. If we can't use an infinite baffle and a woofer that already has a Qts of .707, then the woofer goes in a box.
> 
> Here's where this gets easier:
> 
> The air inside the box is a spring, just like the speaker's spider. The additional springiness is analogous to a REDUCTION in compliance which raises the mechanical Q of the system and causes the woofer to continue playing when the signal goes away. That steepens the rolloff and provides more output at and above resonance. That causes more bass at and above resonance and less far below resonance.
> 
> So...Q is essentially the parameter that defines the SHAPE of the speaker's low frequency rolloff and we use the box to modify that shape. The springiness of the air in the box acts on the compliance of the woofer (or the capacitance in the electrical analogue). Changing the volume of air in the box is how we change it's springiness--the amount of push-back that it provides in opposition to the movement of the cone caused by the motor.
> 
> A vented box is MUCH more complicated. Essentially, we design a sealed box to provide a specific response shape (a lower Q than a sealed box for the same woofer which is why vented boxes are bigger). Then, we add an additional resonator with its own Q and frequency reponse--that's the port. We design the port to resonate at a frequency that is added to the output of the sound of the woofer when we hear both of them play.
> 
> At the frequency where the box is tuned, the pressure in the box is very high--the mechanical or radiation impedance is high. The woofer can't move and fortunately doesn't have to in order to produce output from the port. If the woofer doesn't move, it doesn't make sound. The woofer is responsible for sound above and below the frequency where the box is tuned, but not at the frequency where the box is tuned.
> 
> OK, so Q determines the shape of the response of the sealaed part of the system and the port determines the response at resonance. The sum of the shapes determine the response between the frequency that the port plays and the response of the woofer.
> 
> Most of the suggestions in the post above are way oversimplified and much information about the design goal is left out.That's why it isn't so useful.
> 
> Here's some more info:
> 
> If your design goal is a tiny box, then you need a woofer with a very low Q, so you can add a bunch of springiness to the spider's suspension. In this case, it's helpful to have a woofer with a high Vas because then our tiny box (low Vab) will take over the duties of the speaker's spider--the box becomes the suspension. this is how a Kicker Solobaric works and why they used to specifically state that the warranty coverage is only applicable if you use their box recommendation. Qts of .3 or below.
> 
> If you have more space to devote to a subwoofer and desire better efficiency, then a vented box is the way to go. A woofer with a VERY low Q (like .3or below) can be used for a vented enclosure, but the enclosure will have to be huge to accommodate the port tha will be required to tune the box to a frequency low enough to provide that right sum of port output and speaker output to achieve the classic Max-flat alignment. In this case, it's helpful to have a higher Q.
> 
> If infinite baffle is your application, then you can't rely on a box for help, so you ought to choose a woofer with a Qts that's close to your target alignment (likely .707).
> 
> If you're a subwoofer manufacturer or deisgner who wants to provide a woofer that sounds about the same no matter which size sealed box will be used with the woofer and want a woofer to work in vented boxes too, then a Qts of somewhere between .4 and .55 is good and it's helpful to use the motor to mostly define the Q rather than the suspension. That often means a higher Qes and a lower Qms. That's how I usually do it and some other companies do too.
> 
> The MS woofers are an example of a different design goal--essentially opposite the way to approach the design compared to the Kicker L7 design. The goal for MS woofers as replacements for the power series woofers was similar output over the same narrow band of frequencies (below 80 Hz in the car) without the HUGE basket, Giant heavy cone and long and heavy coil when used with a smaller amplifier.
> 
> In MS-BassProSQ, I got to spec ALL of the parts of the system and it's designed to make tons of great sounding bass in a medium sized box at a value. Since I could eliminate a bunch of stuff required to accommodate an installers desire to spec parts of the system, we were able make a level of performance available at a price that's pretty hard to match with components not specifically designed to work together.


Got it now?  

Kelvin


----------



## captainobvious

subwoofery said:


> Got it now?


That's excellent info.

Here is exactly what I was finding with the modeling of these different drivers:



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So...Q is essentially the parameter that defines the SHAPE of the speaker's low frequency rolloff and we use the box to modify that shape.


This was an "a-ha" moment I had in modeling these. The FS determined the area of the rolloff and the QTS determined the shape of that roll-off. The higher Q drivers (like the JL ZR800) rolled off quicker. 
Example: The B&C10NW64 had a similar FS as the JL, but a much lower Qts, so it began rolling off much sooner, but at a less steep rate which (depending on input power) made them have similar response in the 50-60hz range, with the added sensitivity of the B&C taking over little by little as frequency increased.

So I guess my question is answered in that, YES a low qts woofer can still be used in an IB application and with fine results. The things I need to make sure of are that the potential driver must:

-Be able to cross above its FS and remain in the intended operating frequency range of the application.

-Have enough xmax and compliance to handle the additional cone excursion that an IB application will subject it to.


.
Thanks for hanging in there with me


----------



## captainobvious

And so it begins...

First up is the prep work. I worked most of today working on stripping the car down. For those that have Mazda 3's, these pics should help.


Here's the hatch with trim pieces removed.



Seats out










That's up for debate...


----------



## captainobvious

The Bose amp is under the passenger seat


----------



## captainobvious




----------



## bertholomey

What did your wife think about your progress? Mine tried to not enter the garage for an entire week when I was getting my new car installed.


----------



## captainobvious

Tomorrow I'm hoping to get some mounting rings cut out and begin construction of the kick panels. It's looking like 10's are out of the question unless I ditch the Neo10 mids and move to a standard 4". Or unless I move the mids to the pillars. I really want to keep them in the kicks though to maximize my PLD's and keep the drivers as close together as possible.
8" midbasses is it...


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> What did your wife think about your progress? Mine tried to not enter the garage for an entire week when I was getting my new car installed.


She joked that I should have just bought the car at a discount UNASSEMBLED.  :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## bassfromspace

captainobvious said:


> Tomorrow I'm hoping to get some mounting rings cut out and begin construction of the kick panels. It's looking like 10's are out of the question unless I ditch the Neo10 mids and move to a standard 4". Or unless I move the mids to the pillars. I really want to keep them in the kicks though to maximize my PLD's and keep the drivers as close together as possible.
> 8" midbasses is it...


Have you ever thought of floor mounted or underseat midbass?


----------



## subiemax

Long shot, but has anyone seen a plug for the Bose amp harness. To keep from having to hack the stock one to add a processor.


----------



## captainobvious

bassfromspace said:


> Have you ever thought of floor mounted or underseat midbass?


I considered under seat and floor mounted, but that would involve a lot of cutting and they may be asked to run up to 300-350hz so I want them mounted as close to the mids as possible.


----------



## captainobvious

It was a long day, but I didn't get as much done as I wanted to. The resin wasn't curing as fast as it should have, even with almost double the MEKP recommended 
Oh well...I got the kicks masked off and applied a couple of layers of resin and chopped mat. 



While that was curing, I layed out the wiring and got it techflexed.









After the first couple of layers, I mixed up a hot batch of resin and added talc to thicken it to the consistency of oatmeal, add mass and then added some chopped strands for strength.



Looks like ****, but it's a great mixture and works very well.





I also went ahead and cut out the mounting rings for the drivers. These will hold the mids and midbasses going in the kicks.




Off tomorrow and then I'll be back at it on Monday...
.


----------



## benny

ACRES of room there! Lookin' sharp :thumbsup:


----------



## mattyjman

i know not everyone is okay with cutting a brand new car like me, but wouldn't you have quite a bit more room by opening up the kicks a bit more ... (sorry if you covered this already)...

progress is good - all of a sudden i feel like eating oatmeal


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks Benny! Yeah there really is quite a bit of space to work with there. If I had mids/tweeters mounted in the doors or pillars, I could have put in a big 10"...maybe even a 12" in there (IB of course).


----------



## captainobvious

mattyjman said:


> i know not everyone is okay with cutting a brand new car like me, but wouldn't you have quite a bit more room by opening up the kicks a bit more ... (sorry if you covered this already)...
> 
> progress is good - all of a sudden i feel like eating oatmeal


 
Hahaha just throw some raisins in it and go to town 

I'm like you- not afraid of some cutting 

Behind those panels in the corner is the wheel well though. There's really no more room to expand back there. I do plan on using the hole saw and making plenty of breathing room for the midbasses though as those will be infinte baffle. In the A frame area there is a good void between the inside metal and the quarter panel. Its only about 4 inches wide though, so I can't fully drop a driver in there- only use it for additional airspace.


----------



## mattyjman

Word


----------



## bbfoto

Sorry, double post.


----------



## bbfoto

[/URL][/QUOTE]

That's one HAPPY car!  It's smiling because it's getting a [email protected] audio install. 

Looking good, captain. I'm pretty impressed with those cars.

I was lucky enough to work on the 2010 Mazda MX-5/Miata ad campaign/photoshoot at Laguna Seca. Championship Grand Prix driver Jonathan Bomarito was there as a MazdaSpeed consultant and what we call a "precision driver" in motion picture and photo shoot lingo.

On one of the shoot days during our break he offered to take us for a lap around the track in a completely Stock Mazda3 4-door. I was like, "this is gonna be BOOOOORING!". 

So I wasn't expecting much, and the first lap I thought that he kinda took it a bit easy to make sure we were all okay. So then he says, "okay, I'm gonna do another one, but this time I'll push it a bit". LOL, he wasn't kidding!...The second lap he went BALLS OUT and we were all giggling like schoolgirls, LOL! It was AWESOME! I couldn't believe what he could make that stock Mazda do!

So he's like, "let's do ONE more...". So the third lap he freakin' DRIFTED the whole way! We literally almost sh!t our pants, but it was a BLAST! I was impressed with that little sedan to say the least.

So on our last shoot day, as part of our "wrap party" he says he's got a treat for us.  Had to sign a release of liability, but he took us around the track in THIS! ...










I've never been so scared in all my life, but the adrenaline rush was amazing!

Looking forward to more of your install in this awesome little car!


----------



## captainobvious

A couple of updates. Today I worked on getting the shells removed and mounting rings aimed and secured to the shells. I also got the 1/0 gauge power cable run from the back of the car to the engine bay. Ran the speaker wires as well as the rca's. I had to button the car back up when I was done as it's back to work tomorrow. I wont get a chance to do more work on it until the weekend.

Some pics:

I treid to get them as identical as possible.





I figured, since there's space there I may as well fiberglass in a mount for the BG neo3's as well. I was able to get a nice high soundstage with tweeters in the kicks of a previous car so I'll see how it goes with this install. If I don't like it, I can always do the tweeters in the pillars.




Next, a few pics of the wiring. I used different techflex for thr speaker wiring, remote wire and power wire runs.















Here's the power wire run up into the engine bay. I plan to mount a circuit breaker there.



Oh, and I also removed the hvac vents that went under the front seats. They're pretty much pointless and take away from the flow of the main vents. I capped off the vent tubes with duct tape and open cell foam to keep them from rattling/vibrating.





And carpet back in...


----------



## subiemax

Nice, I can't wait to see those kicks done.
Is the only way through the firewall on the passenger side. I might need to order some new power wire if so.


----------



## bbfoto

Wow, you've made a lot of progress. And those kickpanel enclosures are looking fantastic so far. I feel your pain having to work on your daily driver like that. I'm impressed with your work, and am looking forward to seeing the rest of your build. Great pics, too.


----------



## mattyjman

nice progress... did you get any pictures of a test fit in the car... ? looks like a lot of area to work with, but also some big equipment

tubs look good


----------



## captainobvious

subiemax said:


> Nice, I can't wait to see those kicks done.
> Is the only way through the firewall on the passenger side. I might need to order some new power wire if so.


Well, the firewall on the drivers side is reeeally tight and I couldnt see any existing holes that would be suitable. On the passenger side, if you look in the engine bay to the left and behind the heat shield, you'll see a large (4" or so) black rubber grommet. You can go through that. There are no wires running through it. Its plastic on the inside and rubber on the outside.

I can't wait to see the kiccks done either  It's a long ways away though as I know there's a hell of a lot of labor to go yet. Would be nice if I had a garage still with a workspace. I used to be able to work out there till whenever I wanted to and I could get alot done.


----------



## captainobvious

bbfoto said:


> Wow, you've made a lot of progress. And those kickpanel enclosures are looking fantastic so far. I feel your pain having to work on your daily driver like that. I'm impressed with your work, and am looking forward to seeing the rest of your build. Great pics, too.


 
Thanks for the kind words. Hopefully they'll turn out close to the way I envisioned them.


----------



## captainobvious

mattyjman said:


> nice progress... did you get any pictures of a test fit in the car... ? looks like a lot of area to work with, but also some big equipment
> 
> tubs look good


You know, I cant believe I didnt. I had them in and out of the car multiple times today to check and recheck. 

bummer...


----------



## mattyjman

well, there's always next time  :laugh:


----------



## subiemax

captainobvious said:


> Well, the firewall on the drivers side is reeeally tight and I couldnt see any existing holes that woulI be suitable. On the passenger side, if you look in the engine bay to the left and behind the heat shield, you'll see a large (4" or so) black rubber grommet. You can go through that. There are no wires running through it. Its plastic on the inside and rubber on the outside.
> 
> I can't wait to see the kiccks done either  It's a long ways away though as I know there's a hell of a lot of labor to go yet. Would be nice if I had a garage still with a workspace. I used to be able to work out there till whenever I wanted to and I could get alot done.


I don't think I could live without my garage. Have you considered moving? Lol
As for my car, I am leaning toward the original plan of mids in the doors, tweets in the sails. And a sub in the footwell. Right now i have some arians, intimid8rs and some piccolos. I don't think I am willing to mess with my dead pedal, so I might have to move the 8s to somebody else. But I am curious of your comments on running a 10"+ in the passenger kick IB. Never ran IB before, but I think it would be awesome to save some foot room, as I have a car that my wife will actually ride in now. You plan on drilling holes somewhere to vent to the outside?


----------



## captainobvious

subiemax said:


> I don't think I could live without my garage. Have you considered moving? Lol
> As for my car, I am leaning toward the original plan of mids in the doors, tweets in the sails. And a sub in the footwell. Right now i have some arians, intimid8rs and some piccolos. I don't think I am willing to mess with my dead pedal, so I might have to move the 8s to somebody else. But I am curious of your comments on running a 10"+ in the passenger kick IB. Never ran IB before, but I think it would be awesome to save some foot room, as I have a car that my wife will actually ride in now. You plan on drilling holes somewhere to vent to the outside?


I could have definitely put a 10" in the kicks by themselves. Probably would have rocked some Revelator 10"ers or the B&C proaudio midbasses.
As for venting, you can use a hole saw on a couple of areas for that purpose. The frame rail that the conectors mount to (behind the kick panel) is expansive and will provide a ton of airspace. Not to mention it has plenty ofholes that vent to the underside of the car as well.
There's also the corner in the kicks where the inside pan and the outer pan have a void in between them. I can't tell how large it actually is or if it vents outside from underneath, but that would be another option.

The way I mounted/aimed these drivers in my build will provide the Neo10's with plenty of backspace to include the recommended sealed area with acoustic damping material to break up the back wave, as well as providing a seperate enclosure for the midbasses which will vent right through that frame rail described above. I'll use the hole saw to open up some good access to that large airspace for IB operation.

Of note about the Mazda 3's- it is a serious pain in the balls to get speaker wiring into the doors on these- especially the drivers side. The fact that I wouldnt have to deal with that, or rebuild door panels again was wha treally pulled me to build out the kicks. The pillars are fairly easy though if you decide to mount tweeters up there.

RE The garage-
I envy you 
And yes, we actually considered moving and were going to look at a house nearby, however my wife just found out she lost her job (corporate downsizing) so that's on the back burner now.


----------



## subiemax

From what I've seen the doors look a lot like my rx8. They were not fun getting 2 runs of 12ga through the factory boots, but I did it. I also remember spending hours trying to get the window motors back together. There was a trick that I have forgotten of course. 
Will be starting in about a week.


----------



## captainobvious

Best of louck to you! In the older Mazda 3, the passenger door wasnt too bad. I was able to ge tmy hands up there and get a wire through the existing molex and rubber boo tinto the door after removeing the glovebox and kick panel. On the drivers side, there's so much wiring and mechanical pieces in the way that it's extremely difficult to get the wiring through. Your best bet would be to remove the door bolts and set it aside to get easy access. That will actually SAVE you time, believe it or not


----------



## 1990tsi

can't wait to see how this turns out, I just picked up a speed3 tonight and need to fix what bose did


----------



## captainobvious

1990tsi said:


> can't wait to see how this turns out, I just picked up a speed3 tonight and need to fix what bose did


Yeah seriously. I love the features of the system with the blue tooth handsfree, steering wheel controls and voice activation, but the sound pretty much sucks.

Pics of the MS3?


----------



## kelrog

it only sounds decent when you turn it past 35 (intown) up to 45 (highway)


----------



## subiemax




----------



## subiemax

I like the idea of keeping the stock hu also. Features are good and like the stock look. So I picked up a 360.3 for a pretty good deal and plan on sticking it where the stock Blose amp is. Hopefully I will be happy with that. Should start the install Tuesday.


----------



## kelrog

subiemax said:


> I like the idea of keeping the stock hu also. Features are good and like the stock look. So I picked up a 360.3 for a pretty good deal and plan on sticking it where the stock Blose amp is. Hopefully I will be happy with that. Should start the install Tuesday.


I've been wondering what it would sound like on the stock system, let us know. 

Man I like the darker wheels on the 13's. I need to plasti dip mine.


----------



## subiemax

I wont be using any of the stock speakers if that's what it sounded like I said. Only thing stock that is staying is the hu.


----------



## captainobvious

Yeah I think thats what he was saying. Consider me interested as well.

So weve got a pearl white, the red and the silver now  

What are both of your plans for speakers and locations?


----------



## subiemax

I'm all over the place. Piccolos in the pillars or on axis in a pod in the corner of the dash? Arians in the doors and a sub in the passenger kick or Intimid8rs and a3.5" in kicks? 
I'm still not sure. lol


----------



## subiemax

I dont want to add a rediculous amount of weight, as I will be autocrossing and tracking the car. I NEED my dead petal. I dont need a ton of bass. I really havnt run a sub full time in 2 years.
One amp under the seat is for sure. The Leviathan fits


----------



## 1990tsi

captainobvious said:


> Pics of the MS3?


Looks the same as yours but white 

did you ever hear hissing from the stock system? I've only listened to my usb stick, but I hear a lot of 'noise' between tracks and in quiet parts, that wasn't in my old car.


----------



## captainobvious

Nope, I havent experienced any noise from the system. I will say this though...My rear seat is still removed still as I'm still working on stuff back there. There is a nice amount of high frequency wine that changes pitch/frequency with other actions like hitting the gas and turning the steering wheel. It sounds like its coming from under the rear seat area which would be the gas tank. Tells me that the fuel pump is a noisy little bastard. You'll notice it on startup. It takes about 5-10 minutes for it to start to quiet down. Sometimes it continues to make some noise, sometimes it goes away. I think I'm going to add some MLV or something in that area to block that out. In addition to the seat, that should help to keep it from being audible.


----------



## captainobvious

subiemax said:


> I dont want to add a rediculous amount of weight, as I will be autocrossing and tracking the car. I NEED my dead petal. I dont need a ton of bass. I really havn't run a sub full time in 2 years.
> One amp under the seat is for sure. The Leviathan fits


If that's the case, I doubt you'll be doing the Intimid8r's in the kicks. You'll either need to remove the dead pedal, or block some of it if those go in the kicks.


----------



## captainobvious

A few updates. I had alot going on this weekend but had a chance to get some work in. 

I tried to do a stretch and resin, but the spray adhesive I used broke down and didn't do such a hot job. Oh well, it's workable.





Here's the deal...This kick enclosure is going to have the neo3 in a sealed section, the neo3 is in it's own sealed back enclosure/cup and the woofer will be used infinite baffle with the remainder of the airspace being vented into the a frame rail. What I wanted to avoid was any resonance in the large space inside the enclosure, and to increase overall strength and mass. I filled the open area with expanding foam. This fills up any open gaps and will help to keep the kick enlcosure more "dead". After the fact I thought about something like concrete which would make these incredibly heavy and solid, but it would be very tricky to get them filled just right and there's no correcting any mistakes with that stuff...







I had to trim areas and clean up some spots. Now time to start filling.






I wanted to make sure I had a solid base before I finish the mold here. I still need to mold the rest of the midbass enclosure. These need to blend into the kick panel plastic piece/side sill transition. The next step is to test fit what's here now and then mask off that area and glass them in. So far, so good. I should be able to make these look pretty good with (a LOT of) time.




.


----------



## mattyjman

too bad about the material lifting. that happened to me with my first experience glassing... decided i'll never do that again... the resin just eats that glue away. 

looks like it created quite the problem for you. do you think using the expanding foam is going to serve your needs in this install?


----------



## JayinMI

You'd have probably been better off to start over. I usually use staples or CA glue around the edges...doesn't break down with resin. Looking forward to more progress.

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

mattyjman said:


> too bad about the material lifting. that happened to me with my first experience glassing... decided i'll never do that again... the resin just eats that glue away.
> 
> looks like it created quite the problem for you. do you think using the expanding foam is going to serve your needs in this install?


I like that it is very dense and takes up the extra space between the drivers to keep them more isolated. I dug channels around the baffle rings and have filled them with the resin filler so these will certainly be heavier and solid when done. The most crucial part is the midbass portion and that still needs to be resin'ed and blended into the kick panel plastic and side sill so that will be very beefed up as well. I actually like what I'm seeing/feeling with these so far. When knocking on the enclosures in various parts they are very "dead" sounding with the foam fill.


----------



## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> You'd have probably been better off to start over. I usually use staples or CA glue around the edges...doesn't break down with resin. Looking forward to more progress.
> 
> Jay


Yeah I could have ripped out the material and did a new stretch, but I have a feeling this is actually going to work out better. These will be quite solid when I'm done with them.


----------



## edouble101

Looks like a lot more sanding then you expected! I hate sanding 

When at all possible I use staples to hold down my cloth. It seems to be the best option for me and the staples are easily removable afterwards. I also cut channels on the outside edges of mounting baffles to help the rein grab on to the mounting surfaces.


----------



## edouble101

Looks like a lot more sanding then you expected! I hate sanding 

When at all possible I use staples to hold down my cloth. It seems to be the best option for me and the staples are easily removable afterwards. I also cut channels on the outside edges of mounting baffles to help the rein grab on to the mounting surfaces.


----------



## trevordj

JayinMI said:


> You'd have probably been better off to start over. I usually use staples or CA glue around the edges...doesn't break down with resin. Looking forward to more progress.
> 
> Jay


Ya, I think Jay is right but I'm sure you will get it sorted. I like the shape of the enclosure though, it will definitely be cool when you get it done.


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks


A few more pics. Didnt get much done this weekend with the rain. Resin doesn't like to cure as well/fast in the moist, cool weather... Had to put off more work until later in the week.







I used a posterboard to cut out the shape needed and then resin'ed them. After that cured to tack, I laminated it with chopped mat on the inside and outside with more resin.


----------



## subiemax

Any good forums for this car? Looking around Mazdaspeed Forums makes me want to run my car into a light pole. 
Never seen a forum so anti- car audio. Just read the thread where you defended the guy with the up front sub. What a waste of time. Not a fan of that site.


----------



## captainobvious

subiemax said:


> Any good forums for this car? Looking around Mazdaspeed Forums makes me want to run my car into a light pole.
> Never seen a forum so anti- car audio. Just read the thread where you defended the guy with the up front sub. What a waste of time. Not a fan of that site.


Yeah, the vast majority are teenage twat keyboard commandos. Theres some great info to be had there in their FAQ and guide about the cars though, only problem there is really the ******* user base of internet tough guys. You can also try mazdas247.com
And here's a grea tsite for OEM parts https://mazda-parts.com/partscat.html

I got replacement kick panel and a pillar plastics from them for reasonable prices.


----------



## subiemax

May hit up Mazda parts before too long. Hit the local pull-a-part and it was useless. Didn't have one Mazda 3 of any year.


----------



## 3MPS23

subiemax said:


> Any good forums for this car? Looking around Mazdaspeed Forums makes me want to run my car into a light pole.
> Never seen a forum so anti- car audio. Just read the thread where you defended the guy with the up front sub. What a waste of time. Not a fan of that site.


Not from the us, but you can try the australian one ozmpsclub.com, bit nicer than mazdaspeed forum. Not a heap of audio info, but none of the hate. Lol


Sent from my evil apple using TapaCrash


----------



## mnjordan

*captainobvious*, thanks for sharing this. I have a 2011 3S five door that I'm looking to put my first system in. 

I'm a total noob - would it be ok if I emailed you with questions about my ideas, gear selection, placement, etc?

Or I can start a new thread if you prefer.


----------



## subiemax

mnjordan said:


> *captainobvious*, thanks for sharing this. I have a 2011 3S five door that I'm looking to put my first system in.
> 
> I'm a total noob - would it be ok if I emailed you with questions about my ideas, gear selection, placement, etc?
> 
> Or I can start a new thread if you prefer.


Where in Louisiana are you?


----------



## mnjordan

subiemax said:


> Where in Louisiana are you?


Northeast LA - Monroe area. You?


----------



## subiemax

Not close. In between Nola and BR.


----------



## captainobvious

mnjordan said:


> *captainobvious*, thanks for sharing this. I have a 2011 3S five door that I'm looking to put my first system in.
> 
> I'm a total noob - would it be ok if I emailed you with questions about my ideas, gear selection, placement, etc?
> 
> Or I can start a new thread if you prefer.


No problem, ask away. You can send me a PM too if youd like.


----------



## subiemax

Any suggestions on matching carpet for my kicks?


----------



## captainobvious

I havent tried sourcing any yet, but black should be pretty easy to be close enough not to stand out. You can always bring one of your floormats into a fabric/carpet supplier to get a close match. I have some here at the house from another project. Ill check it against the MS3 interior and let u know.


----------



## captainobvious

I got some more FG work done on the kick pods Monday since there was no rain. This project is slow going right now with work, school and weather 

I put about 4-5 layers of chopped mat and fiberglass resin in for the midbass section and I also glassed the kick area where they meet the factory metal where the door meets. Next up will be to build out that area (I'm going to shape it in place of the factory plastic kick panel), finish trimming them up fit-wise, and then get to bondo and sanding, sanding, sanding...

Sorry, no pics yet. I had to boogie through it yesterday as I had family plans in the afternoon as well. More to come...


----------



## bbfoto

Cool. Glad you're making progress at least!


----------



## captainobvious

I trimmed up the drivers side enclosure to allow for foot room. Then I started with the filler.I did one round of sanding just to get a beginning for the form. I still have to build out a few areas on both. In particular, the area where the enclosure meets the door sill. 



























I need to order up a few things including some rage gold and I have to relocate the wiring harnesses where these will sit. That's all for now...




.


----------



## wdemetrius1

It's taking shape nicely!


----------



## mnjordan

Looking great. I can't wait to see this one come to life.


----------



## subiemax

I'm starting to "see" it now. Honestly the first pics I couldn't tell what was going on. Lol


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks guys.

Unfortunately I wont have my rage gold and wiring for the relocation of the factory harnesses until next week sometime. In the meantime, I need to start brainstorming on how to do the hatch area/amp mounting/wiring and sub enclosure.


----------



## mnjordan

captainobvious said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> Unfortunately I wont have my rage gold and wiring for the relocation of the factory harnesses until next week sometime. In the meantime, I need to start brainstorming on how to do the hatch area/amp mounting/wiring and sub enclosure.


What gear is going back there?


----------



## captainobvious

mnjordan said:


> What gear is going back there?


Good question 

What actually makes it into the install is still up in the air. Here's the equipment list though:

(2) Arc 4150cxlr amps
(1) Arc 2500cxl amp
TC Sounds/Audiopulse EPIC 10"
TC Sounds/Ausiopulse EPIC 12"
(2) Vifa NE325 12" neo subs
JL 13TW5 shallow subwoofer
Acoustic Elegance SBP 15" IB subwoofer

I'm going to either do a sealed/ported sub in the spare tire well or I'm going to cut a large hole in the bottom of it and do an IB setup. I'm undecided right now on it.

Plus I have power distribution and termination hardware to consider as well in the layout.


----------



## mnjordan

captainobvious said:


> Good question
> 
> What actually makes it into the install is still up in the air. Here's the equipment list though:
> 
> (2) Arc 4150cxlr amps
> (1) Arc 2500cxl amp
> TC Sounds/Audiopulse EPIC 10"
> TC Sounds/Ausiopulse EPIC 12"
> (2) Vifa NE325 12" neo subs
> JL 13TW5 shallow subwoofer
> Acoustic Elegance SBP 15" IB subwoofer
> 
> I'm going to either do a sealed/ported sub in the spare tire well or I'm going to cut a large hole in the bottom of it and do an IB setup. I'm undecided right now on it.
> 
> Plus I have power distribution and termination hardware to consider as well in the layout.


Nice! I want that JL shallow sub for my install. If you decide to sell it, I'm your guy.

I haven't tried it yet, but my idea is to go with a full size spare (if it will fit diameter-wise), and put a circular shallow box under the spare. A false floor will be required, but I think that it will anyway no matter what I do.


----------



## captainobvious

mnjordan said:


> Nice! I want that JL shallow sub for my install. If you decide to sell it, I'm your guy.
> 
> I haven't tried it yet, but my idea is to go with a full size spare (if it will fit diameter-wise), and put a circular shallow box under the spare. A false floor will be required, but I think that it will anyway no matter what I do.


 
I'll let you know if it goes up for sale


----------



## captainobvious

Started working on the lighting kit yesterday. It's a Morimoto 55w HID kit with slim ballasts and a wiring harness. This kit was more expensive than some others but it is very nice quality, even the wiring which comes with heat shrink tubing and techflexed wires.

I also installed the Morimoto angel eyes LEDs inside the headlamp housings. I didn't have time to get the wiring run to the dash for a rocker switch which btw is not included (wiring or switch). So pictures on these lit up will have to wait.

In order to get the headlamp assembly's out of the Mazda 3, you have to remove the front bumper 












*I had to whip up some metal mounting brackets for the HID relays as well as the circuit breaker for the audio system.*



*Sprayed in rubber coating:*



*Mount for the circuit breaker:*



*And the one for the HID relays:*



*Wiring and ballasts:*






*And a few pics of the lights after installation of the Xenon H11 bulbs:*


----------



## captainobvious

Here’s the installation of the LED angel eyes. The 2 piece headlight housings are held together by a few screws and a bunch of black silicone/tar like material. You have to heat up the material and then slowly pry apart the 2 pieces. It’s a messy, tedious pain in the ass.











The headlights have an orange insert which is quite large and takes away from the look of the piece. The actual turn signal bulbs are orange and don’t require this piece to function properly. So…I decided to change the color.









Here I installed the LED halos. I used hi temp clear silicone to secure them to the inner housing, then drilled a hole in the back of the housing for the wiring to poke through. I sealed the hole back up with silicone.


----------



## mattyjman

nice work on the lights so far... looking forward to seeing the end result


----------



## subiemax

You gotta bake them lights. 200 degrees in the oven and they come right apart! Done a couple other cars before.
Curious what the light pattern is with the HIDs. Put some on my WRX and just blinded the Hell out of everyone.


----------



## captainobvious

subiemax said:


> You gotta bake them lights. 200 degrees in the oven and they come right apart! Done a couple other cars before.
> Curious what the light pattern is with the HIDs. Put some on my WRX and just blinded the Hell out of everyone.


Surprisingly enough, they have a very similar dispersion to stock bulbs except they have a little more width and a much fuller brighter envelopment of light.
I wasnt flashed at all yesterday evening with them on.
I have heard baking does the trick but these are apparently too large for some ovens.


----------



## subiemax

Cool. I will probably try some down the road.
Been working on more power. Have a Cobb AP, intake, turbo inlet and catless DP on the way. Can't wait!


----------



## trevordj

Lights look REAL good. I'm going to start fiddling with my lights after the stereo is finished.


----------



## captainobvious

subiemax said:


> Cool. I will probably try some down the road.
> Been working on more power. Have a Cobb AP, intake, turbo inlet and catless DP on the way. Can't wait!


Sweet! Let me know how they work out for you. Oh also, most people recommend going with a set of replacement engine mounts too as a first upgrade since the stockers are very squishy.

What instake?



-Steve


----------



## captainobvious

trevordj said:


> Lights look REAL good. I'm going to start fiddling with my lights after the stereo is finished.


Thanks Trevor. Wait until I get the wiring and switch done for the halos. Those should look really sweet.


----------



## bbfoto

Steve, the wiring and headlights look great. Bummer that you had to pull the bumper.  But you got to know your car a bit better. 

Lets us know if you have any noise in your audio system with the HIDs burning. Aftermarket ballasts are known to cause problems there. The ballasts can introduce all kinds of noise/nasties back into the electrical system, like a lot of class D amps do, but worse. It might help to put a filter cap in-line.

Inducted noise can be a problem, too. You can test them by running a long pair of RCA interconnects outside the car near the ballasts. Hopefully you will not have a problem, but if you experience noise Gremlins, check that first.

Nice list of gear, too. I run the 4150cxlr/2500cxl combo in one of my cars as well. No complaints. Looks like you're covered on the subwoofer front as well.  I really like those wheels, too! Keep it up!


----------



## captainobvious

bbfoto said:


> Steve, the wiring and headlights look great. Bummer that you had to pull the bumper.  But you got to know your car a bit better.
> 
> Lets us know if you have any noise in your audio system with the HIDs burning. Aftermarket ballasts are known to cause problems there. The ballasts can introduce all kinds of noise/nasties back into the electrical system, like a lot of class D amps do, but worse. It might help to put a filter cap in-line.
> 
> Inducted noise can be a problem, too. You can test them by running a long pair of RCA interconnects outside the car near the ballasts. Hopefully you will not have a problem, but if you experience noise Gremlins, check that first.
> 
> Nice list of gear, too. I run the 4150cxlr/2500cxl combo in one of my cars as well. No complaints. Looks like you're covered on the subwoofer front as well.  I really like those wheels, too! Keep it up!


 
Thanks bud, I'll keep that in mind about the HID ballasts. I'm banking on the high quality construction and seperate relay/voltage regs keeping the noise out but we'll see... 

I love the Arc cxlr amps. The best I've used for sure.


----------



## 3MPS23

Nice work on the hids. Very keen to see the angel eyes when they are done.

Re engine mounts, even just a stiff rear engine mount on its own makes a huge difference to shifting and reduces wheel hop, plus probably takes less time to install than it took to make those brackets. 

Awesome build so far 

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk HD


----------



## subiemax

captainobvious said:


> Sweet! Let me know how they work out for you. Oh also, most people recommend going with a set of replacement engine mounts too as a first upgrade since the stockers are very squishy.
> 
> What instake?
> 
> 
> 
> -Steve


Picked up a used Cobb. Going to pick up a CPe stage2 rmm before the power goes in.


----------



## OSN

Nice work on the headlights, Steve!


----------



## captainobvious

3MPS23 said:


> Nice work on the hids. Very keen to see the angel eyes when they are done.
> 
> Re engine mounts, even just a stiff rear engine mount on its own makes a huge difference to shifting and reduces wheel hop, plus probably takes less time to install than it took to make those brackets.
> 
> Awesome build so far
> 
> Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk HD


Ive heard the same. My only concern is ive heard they cause vibration. Do u have any experience with them? Any recommendations?


----------



## 3MPS23

captainobvious said:


> Ive heard the same. My only concern is ive heard they cause vibration. Do u have any experience with them? Any recommendations?


I tried a cpe 60 duro with pretty minimal vibes, particularly after a few weeks (apparently the cpe stage 2 is good with even less vibes, but more expensive). I now have a sure r3 track which is much harsher, but i hardly notice it anymore, plus it transmits more engine noise under load which sounds good 

For side mounts, jbr seems good (my next purchase) and apparently the design reduces vibes compared to others quite a bit.

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk HD


----------



## subiemax

I've been trying to read up as much as I can on the mounts. I'm willing to pay a bit more for the CPe to get less nvh. Hopefully I can get away with just the rear for a while. If I was doing all of them, I'd go JBR 70 all around.
I have to say Mazda dropped the ball on the shifter in this car. Hands down the worst I've had.


----------



## captainobvious

Yeah the wheel hop and and drifting engine/tranny are annoying. I may need to look into an RMM. What does the CPE 60 durometer unit run $ ? I'm assuming that's on the low side of the hardness scale as I see others in the 70-90 and above range. Isn't the stock one something rediculous like 10 or below?


----------



## 3MPS23

The stock one actually has great big holes in it! Im sure it makes it a more comfortable ride for all the 82yr old grandmothers mazda seem to think will buy their mazdaspeeds 
I found upgrading to a better transmission oil made a big difference too, especially on cold starts.

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk HD


----------



## captainobvious

3MPS23 said:


> The stock one actually has great big holes in it! Im sure it makes it a more comfortable ride for all the 82yr old grandmothers mazda seem to think will buy their mazdaspeeds
> *I found upgrading to a better transmission oil made a big difference too, especially on cold starts.*
> 
> Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk HD


Realllly? Hmmm, what kind did you use? Does it simply make it a litle smoother/quieter or what?


Thanks


----------



## captainobvious

Oh and a few pic updates from the halos and HID's. 

Here's the deliniation of the HID's. There's pretty good separation there considering the lens wasn't designed for these bulbs. I may need to make a small tweak as it looks like the right side is aimed a tick higher than the left...but you get the idea.





Now for the Halo lights. These things are crazy bright. In all seriousness...it looks like it's a pair of HID rings. They are about the same color temp as a 6K hid. The brightness is phenominal. So much so that the pictures can't even get a clean shot of them in low-mid level lighting conditions. This is a lit parking garage (albeit dimly lit) and they still look fuzzy. I'll try to take some outside in the daylight to see if that will yield a better result. These things look absolutely SICK. An upgrade that was definitely worth the trouble. I leave my parking lights and these on for a little color contrast and it looks fantastic.


----------



## quality_sound

The right side is supposed to be higher. 

If you're running HIDs in halogen housings PLEASE take them out.


----------



## subiemax

Right is supposed to be higher. That pattern actually doesnt look bad at all.


----------



## captainobvious

quality_sound said:


> The right side is supposed to be higher.
> 
> *If you're running HIDs in halogen housings PLEASE take them out*.


 
Why's that?


----------



## subiemax

Most cars that you add HIDs to have really awefull light patterns. My WRX would blind all traffic, it was really terrible. Had to take them out. Thats why I said yours dont look bad.


----------



## captainobvious

Ok, I was thinking it was either for that reason, or heat reasons in the housings which I don't think is an issue here. As for the HID's, I haven't been flashed at yet and by the beam pattern, I doubt I will be. These are far less intrusive than the HIDs I had in the old lancer.


----------



## quality_sound

captainobvious said:


> Why's that?


Even though the cutoff looks ok on a wall, I promise you that it's projecting a ton of light upward. 

Are there OEM projector housings you can swap out?


----------



## captainobvious

quality_sound said:


> Even though the cutoff looks ok on a wall, I promise you that it's projecting a ton of light upward.
> 
> Are there OEM projector housings you can swap out?


In all honesty, The cutoff is excellent and it appears to me that the light is actually a bit lower than it was stock  I was thinking to myself initially that they may need to be slightly adjusted upward actually :surprised:


They make custom projector housings for the previous model MS3 but not this one unfortunately. At night I'm really not seeing light upward of normal. I'll keep attention for any flashers though and use that as my guide. 


Thanks for the heads up QS, I'll keep it in mind. I don't want to blind other drivers, but so far, I don't think these are a problem. I'll continue to monitor...


----------



## Sea Shadow

Awesome build!

A few thoughts:

1 The motor mounts are a must, the local Mazda crew that I associate with swear by them. Also look into a shifter bushing kit, I have yet to get one for mine, but my friends who have swapped them out are very happy (quick install too!).

2 As far as the HID conversion goes the projector assembly has a tiered cutoff assembly. In my 3 sedan there are 3 distinct "levels" of light for the cutoff. The shield shaping the light has a cutout in it that drops the level for each headlight. The left and right each have the low's and high's, with the middle sections blending to make your entire beam projection. This reduces glare and prevents blinding light from bothering oncoming drivers. So the one side being higher than the other is normal. If you try to adjust it you will see the central area of the beam dispersion break up into 2 separate lines.

That having been said there is also a "squirrel finder" that you may want to consider playing with in the headlight assembly. There are these tiny rectangular holes punched into the shield for the projector assembly that have light reflected through them via another metal tab. (I'm sure you have noticed the odd rectangular projection when you face a wall EDIT: Actually you can see them in your first picture) This is supposedly there to help cast light up so that you can see signs and such. IMO it just puts up an annoying glare for any oncoming driver (HID or OEM bulbs) and the light reflected from the road is more than enough to see signs at night. So I bent up my squirrel finders to obstruct that hole, less glare and a cleaner projection, it's a win/win in my book.

3 These things have huge tuning potential. It all depends on how far you want to go, but just as a bit of inspiration: we have a 1st Gen MS3 owner in the greater Salt Lake City area who has re-done his intake/exhaust/fuel pump internals/and bolted on a bigger turbo who is pushing 470 WHP to the ground (of course he has an AP). Amazingly enough he is still running stock internals (he hasn't opened his engine block yet) and a stock clutch. He can brake his wheels free while already cruising at 80 MPH.


----------



## ecbmxer

subiemax said:


> Most cars that you add HIDs to have really awefull light patterns. My WRX would blind all traffic, it was really terrible. Had to take them out. Thats why I said yours dont look bad.


I'm surprised you say that. I thought you had one of the newer gens. I know my HIDs in the OEM projector housing has pretty darn good cutoff with minimal glare above. I have never been flashed, ever. I think you would get more light into oncoming drivers' eyes from a stock truck or SUV.


----------



## subiemax

I have the bushings, light shifter weight and a lightweight Derlin shift knob. 100% better than stock, which brings it up to acceptable. Had the short shifter plate and hated it.


----------



## 3MPS23

captainobvious said:


> Realllly? Hmmm, what kind did you use? Does it simply make it a litle smoother/quieter or what?
> 
> Thanks


Yeah, the stock mount is fairly soft rubber with gap to absorb more vibes. Nice and smooth, but get someone to rev your car and watch how much the engine bucks up. Like a rodeo :S

I'm using Castrol VMX 80 which helps cold shifts(on winter mornings i used to literally not be able to get the car into second gear, had to jump straight to 3rd until it warmed up), makes downshifting from 3-2 much easier, and clears up that 'wong wong' differential whine some cars have on slow sharp turns (think carpark).
There is apparently a better one too, Castrol Syntrans Synthetic 75W-80, that i want to try next.


Have a look here if you want more info http://www.ozmpsclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8322




subiemax said:


> I have the bushings, light shifter weight and a lightweight Derlin shift knob. 100% better than stock, which brings it up to acceptable.


Lol so true 



subiemax said:


> Had the short shifter plate and hated it.


I love my JBR shift plate. They do take a lot of fiddling to get right. Did you try adjusting the shifter cable under the dash? Made a huge difference when i finally found the 'sweet spot'

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk HD


----------



## captainobvious

Damn, that's awesome that we have a nice contingent of MS3 guys here. Thanks for all of the info fellas!


----------



## 3MPS23

captainobvious said:


> Damn, that's awesome that we have a nice contingent of MS3 guys here. Thanks for all of the info fellas!


No worries. Audio + modding.....Hope you have deep pockets 

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk HD


----------



## captainobvious

3MPS23 said:


> No worries. Audio + modding.....Hope you have deep pockets
> 
> Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk HD


Sadly, no  

A piece at a time!


----------



## sbeezy

quality_sound said:


> The right side is supposed to be higher.
> 
> If you're running HIDs in halogen housings PLEASE take them out.


all mazda 3's share the same projector bulb for halogen/xenon... its fine. But the squirrel finder mod is awesome.


----------



## captainobvious

Just a small update here. I am working on relocating/extending some of the factory wiring in the kick areas to make room for the new enclosures.













Soldered and shrink wrapped up. I'll also wrap them and then secure them with anchors and tie wraps and then they'll be concealed under the carpet. Still have to do the other side as well.




.


----------



## captainobvious

Oh and relocating wiring is a real pain in the balls...


----------



## mattyjman

pain in the butt, huh... i wouldn't do it again unless i absolutely needed to.


----------



## subiemax

Yes. Ef that. Maybe because I am just aweful at soldering.
Installed my AP and intake today. Car now makes loud F&F turbo noises.


----------



## captainobvious

mattyjman said:


> pain in the butt, huh... i wouldn't do it again unless i absolutely needed to.


And I also had a hard time finding any decent wire to use for it. The stuff I ended up with is not ideal. It's solid wire and is too stiff. (It was supposed to be stranded when I ordered it).

I mean, you could do multiple cables of 4 wires each or so, but when you have to move a harness with a **** ton of wires, that's just not convenient. What did you use for yours?


----------



## captainobvious

subiemax said:


> Yes. Ef that. Maybe because I am just aweful at soldering.
> Installed my AP and intake today. Car now makes loud F&F turbo noises.


Nice! what did you go with?

I want to install a blow off valve so I can get that cool turbo whoosh  Are you putting one in ?


----------



## subiemax

Cobb AP and Cobb short ram intake. The stock bypass valve and turbo are plenty loud with the open intake. Pretty sure you can run the intake without the tuner.
Would not reccomend a non-recirculating BOV without tuning for it.


----------



## kelrog

Did you consider any of the JBR stuff?


----------



## subiemax

Honestly just got a good deal on a used combo with the intake and AP. $550 for both. Don't think there will be a whole lot of difference with other intakes, I'm just being cheap. Also picked up a CS TIP for $75. 
I have the JBR shifter weight and bushings and like them. Did not like the feel short shift plate.


----------



## kelrog

Sounds like a good deal. Enjoy.


----------



## subiemax

Any updates?
Got a 360 in yesterday. Plan on sticking it on the stock front stage and rear pillar speakers. Also have a 500watt kenwood sub amp that ill stick on something to hold me over for a while. 
Curious to see how it sounds. I don't think the stock system is terrible. Pretty airy and clear. Lacks high treble and bass pretty bad. Some cheap tweeters in the pillars might be a quick mod, but most of my money is tied up in power mods at the moment.
Speaking of power, Catless DP, TIP, SRI and AP are going in Thursday. I have a tuner I'm working with on line. Expecting first and second to be useless soon


----------



## captainobvious

Haha, that's sick!

As for my build, I ran into a snag on the enclosures. I think I had some warping because the drivers aren't fitting in them. I'm scrapping and starting over with something else in mind. I'll post up more once I get started.


----------



## subiemax

Ouch! You probably learned something and come back better than before.


----------



## captainobvious

Yeah, I'm not too bent on it either. I'm thinking that I want a cleaner, more compact look anyway. I've got some things in mind


----------



## captainobvious

Working on the rebuild of the kick panels, one at a time. Cutting metal in the car is not fun...tight spaces and very time consuming.


I cut out some new baffles/rings, glassed a new back plate and began the fitment process to get the right angle lined up. Did a little more glassing to secure the rings and give some structure, and next up on this one is filler and sanding to shape.


----------



## captainobvious

Trimmed up
















Also began working on another project (S2000)


----------



## papasin

Nice work. Midbass in those kicks look familiar .


----------



## Mixerdriver

Subscribed


----------



## bbfoto

Looks good, Steve! Glad you're still at it.

What are you using for body filler on those kicks? Looks like frosting on a cake. Yum 

I was also gonna say to chamfer that back inside edge of your mounting rings for the ZR800s but I guess I'm too late. 

S2000 as well, eh? Nice.


----------



## bertholomey

Very nice update! Those kicks are going to be violent. I see the makings of a ZR8 club  I'm sure it has been mentioned, but I'm a bit lazy this morning - venting to the outside?


----------



## captainobvious

papasin said:


> Nice work. Midbass in those kicks look familiar .



Ahhh, have you done them as well? I'll have to go back and check your build log


----------



## captainobvious

bbfoto said:


> Looks good, Steve! Glad you're still at it.
> 
> What are you using for body filler on those kicks? Looks like frosting on a cake. Yum
> 
> I was also gonna say to chamfer that back inside edge of your mounting rings for the ZR800s but I guess I'm too late.
> 
> S2000 as well, eh? Nice.


Thanks! The "body filler" is actually a mix of FG resin, talc and chopped strands. That's why it looks the way it does. But it's very strong stuff. I used it for structural strength of the piece. I'll be using rage gold as the filler for building out and smoothing them up. As for the chamfer, I don't think it will be necessary. There are two rings, but one of them is used to give a more flush mount look. The midbass is actually attached to the bottom one. There's no significant air blockage that I see so I think it will be fine.

The S2000 is actually my dads toy. The family went in together (through me) to source a bunch of pieces to install a nice system in it. I'll be doing the bulk of the installation on that myself too so I try to get a little done on both while Im over there working.


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> Very nice update! Those kicks are going to be violent. I see the makings of a ZR8 club  I'm sure it has been mentioned, but I'm a bit lazy this morning - venting to the outside?


Thanks Jay! Yessir, they are venting to the outside through the footwell. I modeled quite a few midbasses. In the 8" size, the ZR's appear fantastic on paper so we'll see how they do. They also have very nice mounting specs (shallow depth) and come with a grill system which is great. I have a few other drivers here to test out as well (Intimid8rs included)... if they can fit the enclosure 


Oh, btw I saw a door tag yesterday when I got home :surprised:


----------



## papasin

captainobvious said:


> Ahhh, have you done them as well? I'll have to go back and check your build log


I thought you knew since you said this .



captainobvious said:


> Richard- The install looks fantastic. It takes a vision of two so congrats to you and JT. I don't think I'll ever get the chance ot hear this one but it sure looks fine
> 
> I'm also working on 8's in the kicks, but in my mazda. Wish I had some of the fab skil of JT right about now...I'd save myself a boatload of time.
> 
> 
> -Steve


Anyway, post 301 on mine if it helps . Mine is not vented to the outside...but works well.


----------



## captainobvious

papasin said:


> I thought you knew since you said this .
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, post 301 on mine if it helps . Mine is not vented to the outside...but works well.



Ahhh, the JT install. Yep, now I remember them. What a fantastic install you have there. I'll never match that level of craftsmanship as a weekend hacker, but hopefully they'll come out nice enough to not be an eye-sore 
How much air volume do they see if they're not vented? How is their performance in this configuration? BTW- I love the pillar job on your install. Looks amazing.


----------



## papasin

Not vented to the outside, but not sealed either. IIRC, JT said it's vented up and behind into my dash. So not true IB like yours, but semi IB .


----------



## captainobvious

Ahh, ok. Better than sealed!

BTW- you're daughter is adorable. Does she come out to all of Dad's shows? That's really cool!


----------



## papasin

captainobvious said:


> Ahh, ok. Better than sealed!
> 
> BTW- you're daughter is adorable. Does she come out to all of Dad's shows? That's really cool!


Hehe, when I spoke to JT, I told him I was ok with it venting externally if that is what he recommended (so be it if that meant I moved up a class). I wanted the best SQ possible . He assured me he has built several 8s in kick panels where he focused the backwave out but without necessitating venting externally. IIRC, his previous builds he did so by venting them into the frame rails. It comes down to the car, and he said in mine the frame rails weren't the best solution but he was able to go behind my dash. Someone asked me about it in my thread and I have to admit I have given up creative control on that portion of my build and let the pros handle it so don't know all the details . I haven't even opened up the kick, to see how it is plumbed back there. But it rocks .

Thanks for the compliments on my daughter. Whenever there was a MECA 2x or higher where there was a MECA Kids, she actually came out and drove an MK1 Smart into the lanes (SPL). Even my wife competed her car in SQ, so it was a family affair. A few shows ago, there was some controversy and without reliving that whole ordeal, let's just say we're taking a break from competition.

We're still down for GTGs though. My daughter was caught napping at the last one :laugh:.










http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...iyma/149833-so-california-june-15-2013-a.html


----------



## captainobvious

That's awesome 

RE the 8's- Yeah I would have also vented to the frame rails, but the mounting location makes that more difficult in this particular installation. If I had gone with a 6.5"-7" driver, I could have fit them in easier and had room left for a 4" mid on the frame rail portion. In this install, I have to either move to a 3" mid or go to the pillars.
Decisions, decisions...


----------



## papasin

I'd be curious to get your impressions comparing the JL with the Intimid8er .

EDIT: Even with the JL, you should be able to mate it with a good mid on the pillar. I am pretty happy with how mine came out .


----------



## captainobvious

I had about 2 hours to do some work today so here's the latest update.

I worked on the kick enclosure some more. I decided to really add some strength and heft to these. I mixed up a hot batch of resin and chopped fibers, layed it into the areas between the ring and the back mold and then poured in resin to fully soak and bond. After that, I started in with the Rage Gold filler...



Here you can see where I was laying in the resin mixture





RAGE!!







and more...



And after a ha;f hour or so of sanding...







These things are REALLY solid now. They are also quite heavy considering their size. I allotted three spots to be used for anchoring these to the body metal. I still have a little more to go on it but my plan is to have these completely covered/hidden using a built out stock kick panel. We'll see how that goes.

I'll try to get some pics snapped tomorrow with a driver in it in the kick location.

.


----------



## JayinMI

Dude, looking much better than the last ones. When using Rage Gold, wait til it tacks up but isn't fully hard and shape it with a body file. Then sand with 40grit. WAY faster to get your shape smooth. You gonna wrap them in vinyl?

Something else...for adding mass I've used milkshake and added bb's to it. Then some Duct seal. Works GREAT.

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

Oh, and regarding the IB sub...Houston- we have a problem...

Here is the spare tire well. Fairly flat and quite large.







and here is what sits literally 2 inches below the floorpan area:




This shows the exhaust can and the bottom of the trunk floor. Not much room there...






With the exhaust canister in the way, it's going to make cutting a hole and doing the 15" a bit tricky. As in, I'll have to raise the floor height inside the vehicle since I can't really allow the driver to protrude from the cutout opening in the floor now. (I was hoping to do this to conserve space).



The AE SBP15 is in the neighborhood of 8" total depth. In order to accomodate it, I'll have to raise the floor height about 2-3 ". Not too bad I suppose.

The other question is where to mount the amps and wiring terminations. I was thinking on either side of the trunk as I'd like to retain the ability to fold down the rear seat for utility.


----------



## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> Dude, looking much better than the last ones. When using Rage Gold, wait til it tacks up but isn't fully hard and shape it with a body file. Then sand with 40grit. WAY faster to get your shape smooth. You gonna wrap them in vinyl?
> 
> Something else...for adding mass I've used milkshake and added bb's to it. Then some Duct seal. Works GREAT.
> 
> Jay


Thanks Jay. Since the plan is to have them hidden, I'm going to either paint them black with a little texture or cover with black carpet. They'll be behind framed out grill cloth so I want to make sure they aren't seen underneath.


----------



## JayinMI

If you're going to IB a sub to actual atmosphere, I hope the heat of the muffler being less than 10" away won't be an issue.

Jay


----------



## quality_sound

JayinMI said:


> Dude, looking much better than the last ones. When using Rage Gold, wait til it tacks up but isn't fully hard and shape it with a body file. Then sand with 40grit. WAY faster to get your shape smooth. You gonna wrap them in vinyl?
> 
> Something else...for adding mass I've used milkshake and added bb's to it. Then some Duct seal. Works GREAT.
> 
> Jay


THIS!!!! A cheese grater will be your absolute best friend and will make the sanding process SO much faster if you wait until it's tacky but not hard as Jay suggested. This will save you all kinds of time, especially on large pieces.


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks guys. I'll keep that in mind for my bigger pieces.

As for the heat of the muffler, directly above it is a thin heat shield. It rests between the bottom of the floor and the muffler.


----------



## Rokusek

Holy Jeebus! looking good, I like what you have done so far, I used to have an 06 NA that i built up a few years back. But this is nice. curious to see where you go from here.

Have you thought about maybe getting an aftermarket exhaust so you can cut the spare tire well out? 

Corksport has the two tone Catback that might help open up that space a little underneath the car as well as give your Speed some nice sound 

Mazda Cat Back Exhaust

Just a thought, this was something that I have been considering as well but I do not want to lose the hatch space because of a miassive sub. 

Looking good though!

EDIT: Also, what about mounting the amps to the roof? since there is no sunroof that could be done nicely. also something I am considering as well.


----------



## captainobvious

Rokusek said:


> Holy Jeebus! looking good, I like what you have done so far, I used to have an 06 NA that i built up a few years back. But this is nice. curious to see where you go from here.
> 
> Have you thought about maybe getting an aftermarket exhaust so you can cut the spare tire well out?
> 
> Corksport has the two tone Catback that might help open up that space a little underneath the car as well as give your Speed some nice sound
> 
> Mazda Cat Back Exhaust
> 
> Just a thought, this was something that I have been considering as well but I do not want to lose the hatch space because of a miassive sub.
> 
> Looking good though!
> 
> EDIT: Also, what about mounting the amps to the roof? since there is no sunroof that could be done nicely. also something I am considering as well.


 I hadn't considered mounting to the roof area. I'll look into that, Thanks!

As for the catback exhausts, do they eliminate the big single muffler? I'll have to find some pics to see if that's a viable option as well.


----------



## Rokusek

captainobvious said:


> I hadn't considered mounting to the roof area. I'll look into that, Thanks!
> 
> As for the catback exhausts, do they eliminate the big single muffler? I'll have to find some pics to see if that's a viable option as well.


Yea the roof is something I think would be super cool!

Corksport makes this Axelback exhaust that completely eliminates the muffler all together. 

http://www.corksport.com/corksport-2010-mazdaspeed-3-axle-back-exhaust.html










A little spendy but what exhaust isn't, this would def make your life a little easier and help out in achieving your goal here. 

Where as the Catback (my bad here) still has a muffler.


----------



## subiemax

I installed the Cork Sport rear motor and transmition mount inserts. Very happy with the results so far. No noticeable increase in NVH and wheel hop/ torque steer is almost completely gone. And my car is making a lot more power than stock. A hard 1st to 2nd gear shift will still upset it, but at least it will go into second. For under $100, I think it's all you will need unless drag racing or hard track use. Install takes about an hour for both.
Downside is I've heard people say they need to be changed after 15-20k miles. Guess I'll find out.


----------



## captainobvious

subiemax said:


> I installed the Cork Sport rear motor and transmition mount inserts. Very happy with the results so far. No noticeable increase in NVH and wheel hop/ torque steer is almost completely gone. And my car is making a lot more power than stock. A hard 1st to 2nd gear shift will still upset it, but at least it will go into second. For under $100, I think it's all you will need unless drag racing or hard track use. Install takes about an hour for both.
> Downside is I've heard people say they need to be changed after 15-20k miles. Guess I'll find out.


That's awesome, thanks for sharing the update! Why would they need to be changed out so soon? Are they liquid/oil filled units? Seems very unusual to me. Also, Has in made handling any better? I notice that you can feel a little "floatyness" when transitioning in turns because of the motion of the engine/tranny changing direction. Have you noticed that as well and has the mount upgrade resolved that? What durometer are the Corksport RMM and transmission mount?

Oh, and how many bolts are they and how difficult are they to install? Do you need to support the engine or tranny in some way when installing the new mounts? I'm limited in tools and don't have a lift available, fyi.

Thanks!


----------



## captainobvious

More updates from this weekend and some questions regarding the install. I'll start off with the updates...


As you know, the last update was working on building out the drivers side kick enclosure. This update shows the building of the passenger side kick enclosure. First off though, a couple pics of the drivers side enclosure as I realized I didn't post it up.





This was painted with black rustoleum on the front and sprayed with rubber undercoating spray on the back side and inside.

Here's a view from in the car:







And on to the passenger side work...

I cut the hole for the midbass. Still need to cut the back vent to the outside.



Masked off and started fiberglassing the back shell


----------



## captainobvious

Secured the ring to the shell and glassed it in



Time to fill and shape. Just like the drivers side, I layed in a ton of fiberglass and chopped matt in the inside contours to make the structure extremely strong and heavier.







Sanded...





And test fitted in the car...






Sprayed like the other unit, rustoleum on the front and rubber undercoating on the back and inside...


----------



## captainobvious

These may or may not be seen depending on the clearances available for a trim panel. Either way, I decided to go ahead and wrap them in black carpeting to better match the interior.


----------



## captainobvious

I went ahead and sprayed the cavity and cutouts with rubber undercoating as well to prevent any rust issues and reduce hard surface contact.



I taped up the wiring runs and cleaned it up a bit.


----------



## bertholomey

Wow! That looks fantastic! Very nice work indeed! Can't wait to hear it!


----------



## subiemax

captainobvious said:


> That's awesome, thanks for sharing the update! Why would they need to be changed out so soon? Are they liquid/oil filled units? Seems very unusual to me. Also, Has in made handling any better? I notice that you can feel a little "floatyness" when transitioning in turns because of the motion of the engine/tranny changing direction. Have you noticed that as well and has the mount upgrade resolved that? What durometer are the Corksport RMM and transmission mount?
> 
> Oh, and how many bolts are they and how difficult are they to install? Do you need to support the engine or tranny in some way when installing the new mounts? I'm limited in tools and don't have a lift available, fyi.
> 
> Thanks!


They are not new mounts, just inserts that stiffen the stock mounts. The stock mounts have been known to go out as early at 20k miles. Completely stock the car has bad wheel hop and torque steer, mainly because of the ridiculously soft mounts. The inserts are the cheapest and least invasive mods to help this. To completely get rid of the slop, you need stiffer mounts. But the inserts have done a good enough job for me. I don't want to add crazy NVH.
As far as install, the rmm is 5 bolts and takes 15 min. You will have to jack up the car, I used jack stands also. The TMM requires the rmoval or the intake, battery, battery box and a floor jack under the oil pan to hold it up. 45 min tops. No special tools needed.


----------



## captainobvious

Sort of thinking out loud, and also want to bounce something off of you guys. My original plan was to use B&G neo10's in the kicks along with the midbasses. That didn't pan out because of clearances for those massive neos. Now that the 8" ZR's are finding a home in short order, I turned my attention to the location of the NEO8S (which was ordered as a replacement for the neo10). Below is a view of the a pillar in relation to the kick panel area.





What I tried to show here is the relation vertically between placing the midrange in the kick area vs the a-pillar. While the midbasses have the deepest and furthest forward location available in this car (the most "ideal" position for the midrange), the space available just next to them will still yield a much better PLD between the left and right side drivers. In addition, I can mount them with a slight angle up toward the listening position which will help to avoid issues with the planar's very narrow vertical dispersion. I also think that this location will avoid problems with hard reflections off of the windshield that the a-pillar area would cause. The only downside here is the legs being in the way of direct sound. (Unless there are others you can think of that I'm forgetting about that is)

Any arguments for going a-pillar vs kick? Thoughts/opinions?


----------



## captainobvious

I also have doubts about how well a rectangular driver installed on an angle like that would work. It would make sense to me that if you have an 8" long diaphragm mounted at an angle vertically and horizontally, that the edge closest to you will have sound arriving to your ears at a different time then the sound radiating from the bottom of the element.


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> Wow! That looks fantastic! Very nice work indeed! Can't wait to hear it!



Thanks Jay! Still much to do even with just the midbass and kick area but I'm making headway at least. Might even have a little surprise or two when I arrive for the meet


----------



## papasin

I like where this is going...looking good .

As for kicks vs. a-pillars for mids, maybe wire it up and see what you like better?


----------



## req

those kicks are impressive.

interested to see what you are going to do to finish off the kick area in the door jamb.

very cool!


----------



## captainobvious

req said:


> those kicks are impressive.
> 
> interested to see what you are going to do to finish off the kick area in the door jamb.
> 
> very cool!


Thanks Andy! They are also plenty heavy as well. They don't take up much space because they don't really provide a large enclosure space, more of a mounting solution. They weigh in at almost 5lbs a piece without any deadening or driver loaded up. They feel quite substantial, that's for sure  Once they are bolted to the chassis, I think they will kick some ass.

As for finishing off the kick area, here's what I have in mind. I know for sure I can make it happen for the passenger side, but the drivers side is where I really have to look at clearances because with this being a manual, that clutch pedal needs to be unobstructed.

Have a look (and these aren't in the exact position of course, but you get the idea...).







What I'd like to do is mold the mount for the neo drivers into the factory plastic kick panel and then extend that panel out to cover the midbass. I would then cut out the section over the midbass so it breathes through and use a grille material to cover it up. Does that make sense?

With the angles involved, I could get it really close and not take up much more space.

Here's another view from the angle the cover piece would be at:





And my amazing artistic rendition :blush:








Something like this:


----------



## captainobvious

papasin said:


> I like where this is going...looking good .
> 
> As for kicks vs. a-pillars for mids, maybe wire it up and see what you like better?



Thank you sir!

Yeah, I suppose I could do something to at least get a taste. I just don't have any amps in and none of the other drivers in so I'm more basing it on what should technically work better :surprised:


----------



## papasin

captainobvious said:


> Thank you sir!
> 
> Yeah, I suppose I could do something to at least get a taste. I just don't have any amps in and none of the other drivers in so I'm more basing it on what should technically work better :surprised:


For me, I'm (almost always going to be) a pillar guy. From a "technical" standpoint, it works better for me in my seating position. While it may suffer in PLD, gains are had in lack of obstruction. My $0.02 FWIW, and of course YMMV.


----------



## chefhow

Call me crazy Steve but have you thought about across the front of the dash in the defroster area?


----------



## captainobvious

papasin said:


> For me, I'm (almost always going to be) a pillar guy. From a "technical" standpoint, it works better for me in my seating position. While it may suffer in PLD, gains are had in lack of obstruction. My $0.02 FWIW, and of course YMMV.


Yeah, I hear ya. I've done both in past cars (kicks and pillars) and to some extent I think the car plays a big role in what will sound better. I had a kick panel setup in the old Lancer that was aimed off axis and looked like utter crap. The vocals were center stage and midway up my windshield. When a buddy got in the car to listen he swore that the sound was coming from tweeters I had in the sails (which weren't even connected up). 
And there was plenty of obstruction in that one too.

I guess it comes down to a few things. I can get the mid/tweets slightly wider and a good amount further forward in the kicks. That should provide the best PLDs and give me the best width and depth that I have available in either location. 

*Kicks* -The *downsides* would be less output (so more power needed for equal volume compared to a-pillar install) and maybe some interference because of the legs in the way. This could also affect higher output performance if I'm pushing the neo8S..remains to be seen.
The *upsides* would be more equal PLD's for less processing, wider and deeper mounting locations for better staging, less visual intrusion, close mounting of midbass/midrange/tweeter for easier crossover and tuning flexibility.

*A-Pillars* - The *downsides* would be mounting location yields poor vertical response, lots of hard surface reflection, especially with the wide horizontal response of the planars, some visual distraction, possible safety questions with airbag deployment.
The *upsides* would be better sensitivity per watt with shorter distance to listener, unobstructed clear vocals, higher location ensures sound-stage height.


----------



## captainobvious

chefhow said:


> Call me crazy Steve but have you thought about across the front of the dash in the defroster area?


Only in passing- as in "I wonder what that might sound like". I can't imagine the headache that it would be to remove the dash and modify it to integrate these things. I know I *could* do it, but I don't know how eager I'd be :laugh:

Have you ever heard planar's in a configuration like that? In theory, I would think it would control the dispersion to a degree, similar to a horn. They already have poor vertical response so that would be a benefit in that configuration. Although...turned to the side they would now have great vertical response in relation to the listener closest to them, but I'm not sure how that would affect the listener on the opposite side... That would be fun to experiment with sometime. Maybe I'll try the 'quickie' version by laying them on towels up at the dash corners and see what happens.


----------



## Rokusek

First off... I need to check this forum more often so I dont need to mass respond lol. KICKS LOOK BA!!!



captainobvious said:


> That's awesome, thanks for sharing the update! Why would they need to be changed out so soon? Are they liquid/oil filled units? Seems very unusual to me. Also, Has in made handling any better? I notice that you can feel a little "floatyness" when transitioning in turns because of the motion of the engine/tranny changing direction. Have you noticed that as well and has the mount upgrade resolved that? What durometer are the Corksport RMM and transmission mount?
> 
> Oh, and how many bolts are they and how difficult are they to install? Do you need to support the engine or tranny in some way when installing the new mounts? I'm limited in tools and don't have a lift available, fyi.
> 
> Thanks!


The stock motor mounts are oil filled and are pieces of crap. If you arent into performance modifications i would not even think about getting the mounts. It will stiffen up the motor for sure but might cause you headache in NVH if you get the full replacement mounts compared to the inserts.

I have James Barone Racing motor mounts all around and it is a HUGE difference from stock. Installing them is susper easy and can be done in a few hours with a few hand tools and a jack to support the motor from undernearth (at least with the two side mounts).

JBR has Duros in 70/80/88 and they are very well made. I track my car all the time and have no issues with them whatso ever. 



subiemax said:


> They are not new mounts, just inserts that stiffen the stock mounts. The stock mounts have been known to go out as early at 20k miles. Completely stock the car has bad wheel hop and torque steer, mainly because of the ridiculously soft mounts. The inserts are the cheapest and least invasive mods to help this. To completely get rid of the slop, you need stiffer mounts. But the inserts have done a good enough job for me. I don't want to add crazy NVH.
> As far as install, the rmm is 5 bolts and takes 15 min. You will have to jack up the car, I used jack stands also. The TMM requires the rmoval or the intake, battery, battery box and a floor jack under the oil pan to hold it up. 45 min tops. No special tools needed.


20K miles if you beat the crap out of the car. I know guys that have 90k+ miles on their cars and the stock motor mounts are still completely intact.



chefhow said:


> Call me crazy Steve but have you thought about across the front of the dash in the defroster area?


THIS--^^^^ 

Also something Req and I have considered in my car for the mids and highs. Though on the 2nd gen3's the dash is a little more complecated compared two the 1st gen3's. I think the time invested in doing so would be well worth it, if and ONLY IF, the speakers fit. Good thinking chefhow!




captainobvious said:


> Only in passing- as in "I wonder what that might sound like". I can't imagine the headache that it would be to remove the dash and modify it to integrate these things. I know I *could* do it, but I don't know how eager I'd be :laugh:
> 
> Have you ever heard planar's in a configuration like that? In theory, I would think it would control the dispersion to a degree, similar to a horn. They already have poor vertical response so that would be a benefit in that configuration. Although...turned to the side they would now have great vertical response in relation to the listener closest to them, but I'm not sure how that would affect the listener on the opposite side... That would be fun to experiment with sometime. Maybe I'll try the 'quickie' version by laying them on towels up at the dash corners and see what happens.


I think laying them up there would be a good test to see how the would sound. 

I am super intregued by your build as I have only seen one other Speed3 build and it was not impressive at all. In fact it made me sick. I am curious to see where you go with the Planar's. I may have to take a road trip up and see this in person once you are done. 

All and all good work man! I know Andy is impatient and really wants to get to work on my car as am I. still looking for some goodies. 

-PJ


----------



## mnjordan

I'm considering building some kicks for my car, which is the same as yours. What was the biggest obstacle to overcome? Anything behind the factory panels that would get in the way?


----------



## Pseudonym

are you focusing around the kick panels because of the molex in the doors?


----------



## mnjordan

Pseudonym said:


> are you focusing around the kick panels because of the molex in the doors?


No, I was able to drill through parts of the molex to run 14 gauge wire into the doors. I just wonder if I could get better sound buy building a set of kicks to house my 6.5" Focal K2 midrange. I could definitely get them more on-axis that way. The stock door location is angled down and away, towards the floor. 

I'll be running the K2 tweeter and 3" midrange either both in the A-pillars, or an A-pillar/sail panel combo. 

These kicks for those JL 8's look awesome, and it's got the 'ol gears turning.


----------



## edouble101

Your midbass are tucked into the kick panels nicely. Good job


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks PJ!

I'll definitely give the planars a listen in the dash area first to see what I think of it. It would definitely require serious modification of the dash to cut out the openings and fabricate mounts. Plus I dont know what's lurking under there clearance-wise.

You're more than welcome to check it out when I'm done 




Rokusek said:


> First off... I need to check this forum more often so I dont need to mass respond lol. KICKS LOOK BA!!!
> 
> 
> 
> The stock motor mounts are oil filled and are pieces of crap. If you arent into performance modifications i would not even think about getting the mounts. It will stiffen up the motor for sure but might cause you headache in NVH if you get the full replacement mounts compared to the inserts.
> 
> I have James Barone Racing motor mounts all around and it is a HUGE difference from stock. Installing them is susper easy and can be done in a few hours with a few hand tools and a jack to support the motor from undernearth (at least with the two side mounts).
> 
> JBR has Duros in 70/80/88 and they are very well made. I track my car all the time and have no issues with them whatso ever.
> 
> 
> 
> 20K miles if you beat the crap out of the car. I know guys that have 90k+ miles on their cars and the stock motor mounts are still completely intact.
> 
> 
> 
> THIS--^^^^
> 
> Also something Req and I have considered in my car for the mids and highs. Though on the 2nd gen3's the dash is a little more complecated compared two the 1st gen3's. I think the time invested in doing so would be well worth it, if and ONLY IF, the speakers fit. Good thinking chefhow!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think laying them up there would be a good test to see how the would sound.
> 
> I am super intregued by your build as I have only seen one other Speed3 build and it was not impressive at all. In fact it made me sick. I am curious to see where you go with the Planar's. I may have to take a road trip up and see this in person once you are done.
> 
> All and all good work man! I know Andy is impatient and really wants to get to work on my car as am I. still looking for some goodies.
> 
> -PJ


----------



## captainobvious

mnjordan said:


> I'm considering building some kicks for my car, which is the same as yours. What was the biggest obstacle to overcome? Anything behind the factory panels that would get in the way?


There are wiring harnesses directly behind the plastic kick panels. Depending on how large your speakers are and where exactly they are positioned, you may need to extend some of the wiring to move it out of the way.


----------



## captainobvious

edouble101 said:


> Your midbass are tucked into the kick panels nicely. Good job


Thanks, it took two iterations and alot of thinking to do it the right way, but they are certainly taking shape nicely.


----------



## Pseudonym

mnjordan said:


> No, I was able to drill through parts of the molex to run 14 gauge wire into the doors. I just wonder if I could get better sound buy building a set of kicks to house my 6.5" Focal K2 midrange. I could definitely get them more on-axis that way. The stock door location is angled down and away, towards the floor.
> 
> I'll be running the K2 tweeter and 3" midrange either both in the A-pillars, or an A-pillar/sail panel combo.
> 
> These kicks for those JL 8's look awesome, and it's got the 'ol gears turning.


the question was directed at the OP.


----------



## Rokusek

captainobvious said:


> Thanks PJ!
> 
> I'll definitely give the planars a listen in the dash area first to see what I think of it. It would definitely require serious modification of the dash to cut out the openings and fabricate mounts. Plus I dont know what's lurking under there clearance-wise.
> 
> You're more than welcome to check it out when I'm done


IIRC, there shouldnt be much of anything up there except for ducting for the defrost vents. But all that should be in the middle of the dash not on the outside. But when looking at this picture your entire dash is one solid piece... ugg thats scary










I always think of the first gen in this situation and wish they made the dash in several pieces.


----------



## captainobvious

Pseudonym said:


> are you focusing around the kick panels because of the molex in the doors?


If that was for me, the answer is no. Although door molex is usually a pain in the ass no matter the vehicle, I chose floors over doors for the midbasses for several reasons. First, I wanted to limit vibrations/resonance typically associated with door mounted drivers. It's very difficult (and sometimes impossible) to eliminate those buggers. Second, I wanted a very solid mounting solution. The baffles/pods I've created are quite substantial in there mass and strength and can be bolted to the strong metal of the body- far better than anything I could have done in a door. Third, I wanted to mount them more on axis and farther forward to get PLDs as close to equal as possible. In their current location, the left midbass is a good 12 inches further forward (center ot center distance) so that's pretty good. Fourth, I figured it would allow me enough space to mount the full three way of midbass/midrange/tweeter in the same location which is always desireable if possible.

I'm excited to see the difference I'll notice with the floor install vs the door.


----------



## mnjordan

Pseudonym said:


> the question was directed at the OP.


Sorry about that! 



captainobvious said:


> If that was for me, the answer is no. Although door molex is usually a pain in the ass no matter the vehicle, I chose floors over doors for the midbasses for several reasons. First, I wanted to limit vibrations/resonance typically associated with door mounted drivers. It's very difficult (and sometimes impossible) to eliminate those buggers. Second, I wanted a very solid mounting solution. The baffles/pods I've created are quite substantial in there mass and strength and can be bolted to the strong metal of the body- far better than anything I could have done in a door. Third, I wanted to mount them more on axis and farther forward to get PLDs as close to equal as possible. In their current location, the left midbass is a good 12 inches further forward (center ot center distance) so that's pretty good. Fourth, I figured it would allow me enough space to mount the full three way of midbass/midrange/tweeter in the same location which is always desireable if possible.
> 
> I'm excited to see the difference I'll notice with the floor install vs the door.


This is why I am so interested in kicks, even though I'm not running an 8" driver up front. I feel like I can get better performance with the rigidity of the floor versus the door. That, and papasin keeps strongly suggesting to never go door.  

Thanks so much for posting this build, I'm learning a ton.

On another note - do you find road noise to be a little out of control as the car comes from the factory? I drove a Mk. IV VR6 Jetta for nearly a decade, and that ten year old car is _much_ quieter than my nearly brand new Mazda 3.


----------



## captainobvious

mnjordan said:


> This is why I am so interested in kicks, even though I'm not running an 8" driver up front. I feel like I can get better performance with the rigidity of the floor versus the door. That, and papasin keeps strongly suggesting to never go door.


It's really not 'necessary' to run an 8" or larger midbass driver, but the logic there is that a larger driver should be able to move more air with less stroke. Benefits could be less stress on the driver and lower distortion. Good performance in doors isn't unobtanium, but it is very difficult and can be very vehicle specific. Door construction techniques and materials vary and don't always work out well. There are typically lots of moving parts with windows/tracks, locks and handles, wiring and all sorts of things that can make unwanted noise in there. Outside of all that, just as you said, the floor/kick area can provide a much more solid mounting solution as well.





mnjordan said:


> Thanks so much for posting this build, I'm learning a ton.
> 
> On another note - do you find road noise to be a little out of control as the car comes from the factory? I drove a Mk. IV VR6 Jetta for nearly a decade, and that ten year old car is _much_ quieter than my nearly brand new Mazda 3.


My pleasure! I've learned tons from all of the other guys who have posted up their builds and pictures, shared their knowledge, and taken time to answer my questions. I'm a hack compared to many of the fellows on this site. I just enjoy the build process and listening to the results of the different variables.

As for the noise- yes the Mazda 3 (both the previous model and the newer ones) suffer from a slightly higher than average amount of road noise. Culprit areas are the wheel wells, and oddly enough I've found that the fuel pump is a high pitched noise maker too. I think I'm going to add some MLV and other sound treatments in areas to bring down the overall level a bit. In addition, tire choice makes a large difference as well. I specifically targeted a highly rated (for low noise) tire for the previous Mazda. When the stock rubber wears down on this one, I'll be doing the same.


----------



## timbo2

Im loving being a fly on the wall here! great work so far.


----------



## captainobvious

Still working on the kicks. I still have to make the coverplate and finish these up to look more like the picture mockup.


























**


----------



## captainobvious

Their not much to look at currently, but once I'm done with them, they should cover up nicely and not be very noticeable.


----------



## bbfoto

Looks great to me. Nice work. But some of the kick panel build pics made me hungry...and thirsty, LOL.


----------



## bertholomey

bbfoto said:


> Looks great to me. Nice work. But some of the kick panel build pics made me hungry...and thirsty, LOL.


Win! 

Fantastic work Steve - getting even more excited to hear this. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


----------



## captainobvious

bbfoto said:


> Looks great to me. Nice work. But some of the kick panel build pics made me hungry...and thirsty, LOL.



Hahaha pizza boxes and red solo cups will do that to ya


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> Win!
> 
> Fantastic work Steve - getting even more excited to hear this.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2



Thanks bud  Still a lot to do with these kicks, but I'm making great progress now. Really trying to push to get this done. The kicks are the most complicated part for sure. After they are wrapped up, it will be time to focus on the trunk. I need to start thinking about amp and equipment layout design.


----------



## JayinMI

captainobvious said:


> **


Your fab skills have come quite a ways since the Lancer. Those kicks look great. The big thing that always keeps me from doing kicks, is that my GF and friends don't pay attention to their feet. Bad enough with "normal" speakers, but I'd be super paranoid with Electrostats. As I understand it, they are SUPER delicate. I am planning to do midbasses in the kicks this time, damn the feet. lol

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> Your fab skills have come quite a ways since the Lancer. Those kicks look great. The big thing that always keeps me from doing kicks, is that my GF and friends don't pay attention to their feet. Bad enough with "normal" speakers, but I'd be super paranoid with Electrostats. As I understand it, they are SUPER delicate. I am planning to do midbasses in the kicks this time, damn the feet. lol
> 
> Jay


Thanks Jay, that means a lot coming from you. I still have a ways to go on these to really blend them into the interior down there but they are definitely coming along. I think with the way these planars are constructed, the actual elements sit behind an aluminum frame that leaves them fairly well protected. I know that's not the case with all of them (or with ribbons) though. As long as they arent being exposed to moisture, I don't think they should be much trouble.

Midbasses are very doable. All you need is a good grill and some material to cover them (even a thin carpet should work fine and keep them hidden). Go for it !


----------



## captainobvious

Just a short list of some things learned from my previous builds up to this point. (It's amazing how much you learn about these processes as you get your hands dirty). I have a real respect for you pro installers that do this all the time. It takes a lot of thinking and careful work to get a nice finished product. Makes me wonder about all of the other things I'm missing that could help me produce a better, quicker and more efficient installation.

-You've heard the old adage "measure twice, cut once". I'd even add to that "think about it 3 times before measuring". I've had it happen several times where I think I have a good idea in my head and begin working only to realize that I should have done it a different way, or totally forgot about some other step that was 8 steps ahead of where I'm at. Think like an engineer (or a chess player). Envision how each part works with the other and how each layer adds up to the finished piece your working on. I probably look like a slacker sitting around the garage staring into space for extended periods of time but that's what I do.

-Lay up layer after layer of FG as soon as it begins to cure. I used to put down a single layer of chopped mat and soak it, then walk away for 30-45 mins until I came back to do another. I find that it's much quicker and easier to apply a hot first application, wait until it starts to "heat up" and then go in with successive layers. This is especially true of filler as well. When you mix it up hot, the pieces literally get hot to the touch and speed up curing of each successive layer you put on top. The midbass kick pod pieces are a case-in-point. Previously, they would have each taken me several days to fabricate, but with this method- I cranked out the second one (including sanding) in about 5 hours.

-A good router > a jigsaw 7 days a week. I wish I still had mine and the space to use it. Speaking of space...

-A workshop or garage to build your projects in makes the work much easier, quicker, and more comfortable. I waste 30% of my time traveling back and forth between my place and the parents house right now (they graciously allow me to use their garage to work out of) and in time cleaning up after every day. You can just accomplish so much more in fewer days with a proper work area.

I'm sure there will be many more to come...


----------



## captainobvious

A small update for today. I cut the hole for the passenger side venting to outside and then fabricated up the screens. They are made from concrete lathing mesh and covered with thick grill cloth that has been treated with Scotchguard.


Up first though, I decided to wrap the mid/tweet enclosures in black carpet to better match the interior materials down there and make them less noticeable.








And a quick look at the neos...


----------



## captainobvious

The old grill making technique...










These are the covers for the holes venting to the outside.


----------



## captainobvious

I sprayed undercoating on the cutout areas for protection.








The screens were screwed into the metal, then all seames were covered with aluminum tape, then followed up with rubber undercoating for extra protection.


----------



## Pseudonym

I am so envious of you. I couldn't even imagine midbass where yours are with the nest of wires in my ms6. I was even just gonna drill holes under the factory molex but can't for the life of me find a place to drill that isn't flowing with layer after layer of wiring. I've thrown my hands up and am seriously considering taking this thing to a shop and paying them to deal with it.


----------



## JayinMI

How did you determine what size to make your hole? I see a few other people who have vented to atmosphere make their holes either (a minimum of) 3/4 Sd, or equal to Sd. Or was it more of a "This is where it has to go, I hope it works" kind of deal?

Cutting up new cars is fun, huh? Can't wait to see what you do with the sub.

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

Pseudonym said:


> I am so envious of you. I couldn't even imagine midbass where yours are with the nest of wires in my ms6. I was even just gonna drill holes under the factory molex but can't for the life of me find a place to drill that isn't flowing with layer after layer of wiring. I've thrown my hands up and am seriously considering taking this thing to a shop and paying them to deal with it.


It's very tedious and takes a lot of time, but relocating the wiring is really what you may have to do. I had to on the drivers side with 2 harnesses. Then the wires can be routed however you want to leave you room for installation.


----------



## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> How did you determine what size to make your hole? I see a few other people who have vented to atmosphere make their holes either (a minimum of) 3/4 Sd, or equal to Sd. Or was it more of a "This is where it has to go, I hope it works" kind of deal?
> 
> Cutting up new cars is fun, huh? Can't wait to see what you do with the sub.
> 
> Jay



I just went with the biggest holesaw size that didn't interfere too much with the mounts for the wheel well plastic inserts and without cutting into the frame rails. I could open up more space to the top or bottom by a bit, but not the either side of the current hole. The cutout for the pods is about 6"+in diameter and empties into a cavern about .3-.5 cubes by the eyeball estimate, and then the 4" cutout to outside from there.
So basically, it's a "lets see how it goes" situation. I don't want to cut more material then absolutely necessary so I started here and can expand if needed. 

Yeah, cutting up new cars is intimidating :blush: (Well at least for a weekend hack that is!) I'm sure you don't sweat them too much. Have you had many/any customer installs that required this kind of construction with holes in the kicks? If so, what method do/would you use for the vent?

Thanks Jay


----------



## JayinMI

captainobvious said:


> I just went with the biggest holesaw size that didn't interfere too much with the mounts for the wheel well plastic inserts and without cutting into the frame rails. I could open up more space to the top or bottom by a bit, but not the either side of the current hole. The cutout for the pods is about 6"+in diameter and empties into a cavern about .3-.5 cubes by the eyeball estimate, and then the 4" cutout to outside from there.
> So basically, it's a "lets see how it goes" situation. I don't want to cut more material then absolutely necessary so I started here and can expand if needed.
> 
> Yeah, cutting up new cars is intimidating :blush: (Well at least for a weekend hack that is!) I'm sure you don't sweat them too much. Have you had many/any customer installs that required this kind of construction with holes in the kicks? If so, what method do/would you use for the vent?
> 
> Thanks Jay


Nah, my salesguy wouldn't know how to sell something like that, my customers aren't exactly "SQ" oriented, anyway. lol

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

Yeah I can understand that


----------



## captainobvious

I have some interesting developments with the install and some cool updates down the pike... Here's the proposed new layout. It doesn't affect my current progress to this point either so all's good.


----------



## bertholomey

Wow! you alluded to some of this, but Wow!!!!!

It will certainly be dynamic.......all frequencies covered........should be unique compared to most of the cars I have heard - with the Neo drivers and the complement of JL drivers - can't wait to hear it in September!


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> Wow! you alluded to some of this, but Wow!!!!!
> 
> It will certainly be dynamic.......all frequencies covered........should be unique compared to most of the cars I have heard - with the Neo drivers and the complement of JL drivers - can't wait to hear it in September!


Yep, it should provide more than enough "headroom" for the install  And in 2 amplifier chassis' instead of 3 which is great. I just need to ensure that they provide the same dynamic sound I'm used to from the Arc's. Once I've got everything else lined up, I can A/B them and see what difference I hear.

In the configuration I'm looking at, each neo3 and neo8 would be powered off of single channels, while each ZR800 and each sub would get a pair of bridged channels. Here's the specs on the amps:



6 Channel H-E SQ Full range class A/B
RMS Rated Power @ < 0.05%THD
Power @ 4Ω: 6 x 150 watts
Power @ 2Ω: 6 x 230 watts
Bridged @ 4Ω: 3 x 450 watts

I figure it's worth trying the JL 13TW5 out first while I have it. If it provides plenty of bottom end for me, then I can avoid cutting a big hole in the spare tire well for the AE SBP15 to do IB duty. We'll see...


----------



## OSN

Lookin' great Steve! It's hard to keep up with you; both because I don't get many emails to alert me of your updates, as well as on the highway getting home from work. :laugh:


----------



## captainobvious

Hah, thanks D. It's coming together slowly, but very nicely so far. I'll have to have you sit in during the tuning stage


----------



## mnjordan

I'm interested to see how you mount your head unit. I got the Metra kit with my double din Pioneer, and it is hot garbage. There is no clip at the bottom to secure the kit/head unit, so it sticks out nearly an inch, and just bounces around.

I really don't want to have to fabricate something, but we'll see. Like I said, I'm curious to see your solution.


----------



## JayinMI

I've never run across that with the Metra kits for the 3's I've worked on (which is like 2 or 3)...not sticking out that far for sure. I've gotten several Metra kits, however, with tabs broken off in shipping...so perhaps they are supposed to be there, but aren't? Did you check the instruction manual? Do you need to cut out the area behind the HU to get it to sit properly?

Jay


----------



## ecbmxer

Build is coming along! I'm guessing that TW3 sub will be mounted up front somehow? And why the line driver? I'd figure the Mosconi has decent preout voltages?


----------



## JayinMI

The Mosconi 6to8 I installed wasn't anything to write home about, voltage-wise. Should be better with the line driver.

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

ecbmxer said:


> Build is coming along! I'm guessing that TW3 sub will be mounted up front somehow? And why the line driver? I'd figure the Mosconi has decent preout voltages?





JayinMI said:


> The Mosconi 6to8 I installed wasn't anything to write home about, voltage-wise. Should be better with the line driver.
> 
> Jay


Yup, exactly why I'm planning on using one- thanks Jay.


----------



## mathematics

would be nice if at least some of the pics were actually viewable and not the photobucket bandwidth reached logo


----------



## captainobvious

mathematics said:


> would be nice if at least some of the pics were actually viewable and not the photobucket bandwidth reached logo



I agree...sorry. Photobucket is great as a free tool, but it can be frustrating when the pics aren't viewable.


----------



## quality_sound

Imageshack is also free, I've never had a bandwidth issue, and it renders properly on mobile devices without photobucket's annoying ass ads.


----------



## mathematics

sorry if it sounded like i was being rude. that wasn't my intention. i just want to see the pics =)



captainobvious said:


> I agree...sorry. Photobucket is great as a free tool, but it can be frustrating when the pics aren't viewable.


----------



## captainobvious

quality_sound said:


> Imageshack is also free, I've never had a bandwidth issue, and it renders properly on mobile devices without photobucket's annoying ass ads.


Thanks, I'll look into hosting some stuff with them as well.



mathematics said:


> sorry if it sounded like i was being rude. that wasn't my intention. i just want to see the pics =)


No problem, I didn't take it as rude at all. I share your frustration :blush:


----------



## captainobvious

Pics are back up.


----------



## Mic10is

Is this thing gonna play music by Sunday?


----------



## captainobvious

Mic10is said:


> Is this thing gonna play music by Sunday?


Is that a rhetorical?


----------



## captainobvious

I used some of the Butyl Rope from Don's SDS site to provide a good seal and some additional dampening between the midbass pods and the sheet metal. Then, I pre-drilled osme holes and used sheet metal screws to secure the pods to the metal. You can see the butyl squeezed through in some areas. It forms a nice seal there. I also ran the speaker wires from the enclosures to the termination point and added a screw down for the midrange pods to secure them. Pics are a little out of order, but you get the idea.


----------



## captainobvious

I started turning some attention to the trunk. Here's where I left off as I only had a few hours to do anything today...

Glued, clamped and screwed 






















The material you see stuck to the panel pieces is open cell foam with a PSA backer. It's being used to decouple the base floor panels from the metal floor pan as well as the next layer on top of it. My goal in using it in this way is to reduce transmitted tactile energy from the subwoofer which could excite other trunk panels.


----------



## captainobvious

The box being made is to house a JL 13TW5 sub. JL recommends a 0.8 cu ft enclosure for this driver which gives a QTC of 0.94. The internal volume of this enclosure is 0.958 and the sub only displaces about 0.05 cubic feet so I'll net about 0.91 cubic feet internal airspace and will lower the overall system Q a bit. The hole cut in the bottom is to allow the spare tire mount to pass through. I will be using this factory mounting point to secure the sub box/structure and will use another wood piece to cover and seal this hole. The baffle size is 16x18 so I still have room to upsize to the 15" AE down the road if I decide I want to go that route.


----------



## bertholomey

Very good work - I certainly like the design - I can't wait to see that beautiful JL in there.


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> Very good work - I certainly like the design - I can't wait to see that beautiful JL in there.


Which one ? 

Thanks! Yeah, me too. From what I have read, the TW5 should be very nice. It's depth allows me to build up the false floor and only have it raised a small amount more than stock.

I'm not sure yet about the mounting location/display of the distribution, processor and line driver yet as space is a little tight back there, but I have a few ideas. I may end up actually mounting both the processor and line driver up front (hidden) between the transmission hump and the dash/console. this would allow me to drive the signal before the run to the back for maximum noise rejection as well as leave me space in the rear to display the wiring. Plus I could have a very short USB run for the programming interface of the processor. 

I have been thinking about the power/grounding for the system though lately and would like to get some feedback. I have traditionally just run the source unit to a body ground and the amps have been grounded in the trunk area. I have read that grounding all of your audio devices in the same location prevents ground loops. I've also read that having to much current pass through a similar ground can cause issues as well...


I want to avoid noise issues from the start if possible. It's more work, but I can certainly run power wires from the trunk area up to the dash so that everything shares a common ground. Recommend ?


----------



## JayinMI

It's a practice I've gotten into more often in the past few years. When I started in this business we had cheap wire, super cheap RCA cables, etc at the shop I worked at. You could run them all together down one side and never had noise. 

Around the middle of my career it became a better practice to run power/signal down opposite sides of the car. I don't know if it has to do with power supply design, or what, but noise was more prevalent, even sometimes when you did everything "right."

Nowadays, it's gotten to the point where you almost have to run a reference ground of some kind from the HU to the amp. 

Not sure if it's because everything is made in China, or the electrical systems in cars are crappier or because there are more computers in cars, but it's certainly worth the small amount of effort.

On the vette I just did, I ran 12ga power and ground directly from the battery to the HU harness. 

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

Sweet, thanks for the feedback Jay, I appreciate it. I have half of the interior out anyway so it's not a big deal to get it done. I just wasn't sure if this was the better way to do it or not at this point. Now I know


----------



## ecbmxer

Those kick panels really turned out great. I like how you really can barely notice that 8" driver back there!


----------



## captainobvious

ecbmxer said:


> Those kick panels really turned out great. I like how you really can barely notice that 8" driver back there!


Thanks! I actually still have a cover piece to fab up, but they are almost complete.


----------



## captainobvious

Still working on putting the trunk together, piece by piece. I screwed in thick gauge metal supports to attach the base floor piece to the sub enclosure. (The enclosure will be bolted to the factory spare tire mount to secure the whole piece). I also used more ensolite foam to ensure this structure is resonance free and decoupled from the metal floor. I cutout a sub baffle and mounted that as well. You'll notice that I used ensolite on the back of the baffle as well. I could have used standard wood glue or butyl, but I want this piece to be removable in case I want to mount a different driver in the box at some point. 28 wood screws lock the baffle in place so it's not going anywhere 
Another thing you'll notice (and I'm surprised noone mentioned it yet) is that the sub box is offset quite a bit to the right side of the trunk area. The reason for that is that the actual spare tire well is shifted to the right side of the vehicle. In order to keep the end result looking as symmetrical as possible, I decided to mount the sub with as much offset to the left as I could afford. In the picture, you'll see 2 amps mocked up. While the sub box is quite obviously closer to the right amp, the distance from the center of the sub to either amp (left or right) remains very consistent. The subwoofer sits about 1.5" higher than the amps, and the distribution block is even shorter. I want all three to look like they are on basically the same plane visually once the cover piece is on, so I'm raising the amps and distro to produce that effect. I will also use ensolite on the mount for the subs to ensure their chassis' are decoupled from and vibrations of the subwoofer enclosure. These amps are huge so it's going to be a tight squeeze. I should have just enough clearance for power/speaker connections on the far end and rca's on the near end. I wish these had the same input/output layout as the DC Ref series where they are all on the long side.


----------



## captainobvious

Yesterday I got a couple hours in and worked on some of the front
wiring. The way I've set this up is to have a junction point
at the front of the vehicle for speaker wires where the feed from 
the back will terminate. I will then connect any of the front speakers 
to these runs via terminal blocks. The reason I chose to do this is in
case I decide to edit the configuration of the system down the road. I 
want to keep things as easy as possible for making changes should I 
decide to do so.

The bundles from the back are in the striped black and white techflex. I
started by relabeling them close to the cut point to avoid any mis-steps.
Next, I stripped and crimped spade ends on each cable. I then soldered the
connectors as well for a better, more solid connection. I followed that up
by using some heatshrink tubing over the connection points and then screwed
them down to the terminal blocks. One is for the left side speakers, and
one is for the right side. There is also an open terminal for a spare.











These strips also include a protective plastic cover over the terminals, a 
nice feature.


----------



## bassfromspace

Looks great and thanks for the great deal on the speakers!


----------



## captainobvious

No problem bud! Glad you'll be able to get some use out of them


----------



## captainobvious

Continued...

More work on the trunk. I used ensolite foam on the mounts for the amps and the wiring distribution piece. 
Also painted the base and enclosure, and then sprayed rubber undercoating on the inside of the enclosure.


Pieces drying





Amps will just fit






These things are massive, heavy and quite pretty 



Foam backer on the amp mount pieces. This should help decouple them from the energy produced by the sub.







In place and screwed down



Shown in the trunk



Working on the cover piece measurements. I still havent decided if I want to do plexi cutouts or perforated metal. What do you guys think? One
one hand, it would be great to be able to show off the amps a bit. On the other hand, the perforated metal allows for better ventilation
and cooling...


----------



## bertholomey

Looks great Steve - those are huge! 

Would plexi scratch or haze over time - especially if you are using the hatch for storage? Would you eventually put perfed metal in there to replace the scratched plexi?


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> Looks great Steve - those are huge!
> 
> Would plexi scratch or haze over time - especially if you are using the hatch for storage? Would you eventually put perfed metal in there to replace the scratched plexi?


Plexi does scratch over time if theres alot of contact there, but you can use a plastic polish for it as well. But I wouldnt be so worried about that because there would be foam backed inserts that cover the plexi panels when not being shown, as well as a full carpet trunk mat/liner I'm going to fab up regardless of which option is used.


----------



## Pseudonym

whatre your go-fast mods?


----------



## captainobvious

Pseudonym said:


> whatre your go-fast mods?


My right foot.

:laugh:


No speed modifications as of yet. If I do anything, I'll start off with some motor/trans mounts to clean up the slop and work from there.


----------



## Mic10is

captainobvious said:


> *My right foot.*
> 
> :laugh:
> 
> 
> No speed modifications as of yet. If I do anything, I'll start off with some motor/trans mounts to clean up the slop and work from there.



im totally stealing this 

not your right foot, bc that would just be weird...but the whole speed mod thing


----------



## bertholomey

captainobvious said:


> Plexi does scratch over time if theres alot of contact there, but you can use a plastic polish for it as well. But I wouldnt be so worried about that because there would be foam backed inserts that cover the plexi panels when not being shown, as well as a full carpet trunk mat/liner I'm going to fab up regardless of which option is used.


Well crap Cap'n, of course there would be foam backed inserts over the plexi....hadn't considered that when I made my hasty post, but I should have, considering who is doing this install


----------



## captainobvious

Admittedly, I think wayyy too much and for too long about how this thing is going to piece together. I "waste" a lot of time going over the same things in my head again and again to try to step through this build. So, to save my sanity and to get a good layout plan, I mocked up a little model on paper today to give me a good template for how to wrap up the trunk. It's Bing/JOey- esque in design visually, but will certainly not compare to the level of finish those gentleman are able to achieve. I tried to go for a layout that is pleasing to the eye and somewhat symmetrical. Of course, this isn't completely to scale and some of the hand drawing parts are a bit off, but hey it gets me in the ballpark.

I've decided to go ahead and do the perforated steel. The 'industrial' look suits the amplifiers and should provide both good protection as well as good ventilation for the equipment below.

I layed this out in layers so I'll even know which boards to cut in which manner. 




Starting from the bottom, or the very first cover piece that will sit above the amps and subwoofer. This piece will have a channel routed around the inside edges of the cutouts to allow the perforated steel mesh to sit flush with the surface. The BOLDED lines just show me visually where the full lengths and outside edges of the amps and sub sit below this initial cover board. Assume the entire board is solid, except for the mesh cutouts.




Next is the second layer board which trims out the mesh areas and gives nice edges. This will only need to be a 1/4 or 3/8 board so not much to it.





Next up is the third (and final) layer board. This will provide a designed cutout and the board and the cutout will be carpeted. I will also have a flushed metal mesh section integrated into this piece to allow venting (covered by the carpet).





And this one just gives an idea of the look after, but it should look basically like a carpet trunk  (excuse the missing bottom piece)





On top of this will be a full floor trunk carpet mat that I'm going to make which will keep everything completely hidden and very stock looking. (Except for the fact that these don't have a nice cargo mat or carpet mat stock


----------



## captainobvious

Picked up a router! I need it for the beauty panels in the trunk.

Just a few initial cuts before I moved onto the wiring in the car.





New signal cables. They are RG6U coax and well constructed. You can find these on Monoprice.com 
at great prices. They have excellent shielding and should make for great, noise free signal
cables. I will warn though that these are fairly stiff because of the cable type.








Working on getting the signal feed from the front to the back of the car. Here are the 
processing/line driver units which are located at the front of the vehicle.





Secured to the DSP with a layer of foam in between to prevent any vibrating.



The industrial strength velcro will be used on the bottom to secure it in it's final 
resting place (glove box).


----------



## captainobvious

wiring up the power distribution between the accessories and HU.
















The ground location for the front electronics. It was wire brushed down to bare metal 
and a solid bolt and washer used at the connection point. 




The ground cable. Techfelxed, shrink wrapped and prettied up.


----------



## bertholomey

Wow! You weren't kidding with your post in the meet thread. That is a lot of work completed, and there is a bit more to go  I would be completely stumped - staring dumbfounded - at wiring the line drivers. I'm looking so forward to hearing this car!


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> Wow! You weren't kidding with your post in the meet thread. That is a lot of work completed, and there is a bit more to go  I would be completely stumped - staring dumbfounded - at wiring the line drivers. I'm looking so forward to hearing this car!



Hahaha, it's not as complicated as it looks 

Still plugging away at the build. Here's the latest photo's...

Under the hood power wiring/routing. Everything is techflexed/heat shrinked. Plenty of tie wraps to keep things neat.













What a mess...




All processing and power in the glove box. The door does close 



wire routing




I started installing the P99RS. I wanted to make a quick note that I shrink wrapped the rca connectors (both the ones connected together and the ones not used). This will keep them from shorting on any metal they could have contacted in the dash.


----------



## captainobvious

And on to the trunk wiring. Not complete, but I'm making good progress. I'm taking a flyer from Bing/Joey's builds and I've used terminal/barrier strips on the main backboard. This helps to keep my wiring neat, makes for easy troubleshooting and best of all- allows me to wire almost everything up on the board outside of the car.


Clean slate



Amps rested in place to help me measure out the right lengths of cable.





Even though the speaker wires are basically "jumpered" to the amps, I used matching techflex to keep things consistent.


----------



## captainobvious

Close up. This is where the wires inside the car will connect in.




Streetwires CBR44, a fantastic piece. Makes for easy ground and power distribution in a single unit.


----------



## captainobvious

Working on the sub box...


----------



## req

ooooh up front bassss!


----------



## ecbmxer

Wow mad progress!


----------



## captainobvious

Haha thanks!

I should have some updated pics later today. Got it test fitted last night. It secures to a pair of factory bolt threads that pass through into the box.


----------



## captainobvious

I spent hours yesterday troubleshooting noise issues (as well as installing a new battery and wires). I kept getting a clicking sound with some static and some whine which was engine speed dependent (increasing in frequency with engine rpm). The clicking happens in the accessory position and while running. I would normally associate this with a ground loop, but figured I had done pretty well heading that off in the initial installation by running a separate 4 gauge to battery positive and a 4 gauge ground to chassis as shown in some previous pics. After investigating, the noises are actually audible as well in the engine compartment (and each comes from a different component). I'm not sure where they are originating, but I've found that the line driver will exacerbate the noise if the gain level is increased, rendering it useless. Using the head unit alone, I don't find the issue audible. I tried moving the ground to a different location, tried grounding the source and line driver in the same location as the amps and also tried grounding the head unit separate from the line driver and amps. None of those made a difference.
In the end, I just connected up the head unit direct to the amps and I don't get any noise...  

As for the battery, my wife's car had a stock battery that was leaking battery acid and had some of the most corroded terminals I've ever seen. Conveniently for me, I replaced her battery with my stock battery (it's basically new since it's a 2013) and replaced mine with the meatiest one I could fit in the stock tray- a Kinetik KHC2000. MUCH more power than the stock unit. While I was at it, I ran 2 new ground wires including a new chassis ground at a better location on the frame. Would still like to do the ones to the alternator at some point to see if that helps at all with noise issues, but that will wait for another day. 

Outside of cosmetic pieces, everything is in. I think now I'll focus on the details and the tuning and then work on the cosmetic items last so I can make sure I bring a decent sounding vehicle to the PA state finals show next weekend.

First up, a few pics of the front sub (no cover piece fabricated and installed yet).










Next are some pics of the under hood wiring and battery:

The mess once I got the stock battery, battery box and air intake removed-



Found a new grounding point for the chassis. The stock one is a thin piece of metal welded to the drivers side shock tower. Not ideal.



Close up. Wire brushed and sanded for a clean connection.



New ground cable techflexed, crimped, soldered, and heat shrinked.




New Kinetik going in...


----------



## captainobvious

Also, a couple more pics I didn't post. These show some of the trunk wiring work, including my grounding spot for the amps (wire brushed, sanded).


----------



## JayinMI

So, it looks like adding a 10TW3 (or the occasional Illusion Carbon 12) up front is the new forum boner. lol Everybody's doing it. lol

LOL

Jay


----------



## Serieus

your sub enclosure looks great, and there's still a tonnnn of room for passenger legs too. didn't realize how roomy the passenger side footwell was  what range is the front sub going to be playing?


----------



## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> So, it looks like adding a 10TW3 (or the occasional Illusion Carbon 12) up front is the new forum boner. lol Everybody's doing it. lol
> 
> LOL
> 
> Jay


I had ordered mine before I got the opportunity to hear the one in Bertholomey's BRZ, and Im glad I did. They are very capable drivers. I wanted/needed something very shallow to keep footspace and there are only a few good candidates that fit the bill. These new TW3's are terrific 

The Illusion gear is too expensive for me to take a look at it


----------



## captainobvious

Serieus said:


> your sub enclosure looks great, and there's still a tonnnn of room for passenger legs too. didn't realize how roomy the passenger side footwell was  what range is the front sub going to be playing?



Thanks ! I haven't settled on a range yet as I haven't started any serious tuning, but I'm thinking the 80hz range down to the trunk sub for the lowest frequencies. 
I tried to get it as far back into the footwell as I could and it sits pretty deep so I'm happy.


----------



## quality_sound

With a front sub I'd run it WAY high, like up around 150Hz. Let it so most of the midbass as well since it won't be localizable and running it that high will clean up the sound and greatly improve dynamics. You'll be able to play it MUCH louder while being cleaner.


----------



## Mic10is

quality_sound said:


> With a front sub I'd run it WAY high, like up around 150Hz. Let it so most of the midbass as well since it won't be localizable and running it that high will clean up the sound and greatly improve dynamics. You'll be able to play it MUCH louder while being cleaner.


except when its mounted on one side like that its extremely localized above 80hz or so.
160hz starts getting into staging and imaging information for lower midrange.
Depending on the realistic enclosure size volume, it may not really even go that low and will just be a giant bass driver. not a sub and not a midbass

ZR800 in IB can be run really low as well like to 35 or 40hz, but they dont do well for midrange. above 600hz or so, if that they are rather Meh...not very transparent at all.

my guesstimate on what could work best is to Use each sub basically for an Octave.
Rear sub 20-40hz.
Front sub 40-80hz
Midbass 80 or 100hz ish....to whatever


----------



## captainobvious

Mic10is said:


> my guesstimate on what could work best is to Use each sub basically for an Octave.
> Rear sub 20-40hz.
> Front sub 40-80hz
> Midbass 80 or 100hz ish....to whatever



This is actually very close to what I'm initially testing it at.


----------



## quality_sound

Mic10is said:


> except when its mounted on one side like that its extremely localized above 80hz or so.
> 160hz starts getting into staging and imaging information for lower midrange.
> Depending on the realistic enclosure size volume, it may not really even go that low and will just be a giant bass driver. not a sub and not a midbass
> 
> ZR800 in IB can be run really low as well like to 35 or 40hz, but they dont do well for midrange. above 600hz or so, if that they are rather Meh...not very transparent at all.
> 
> my guesstimate on what could work best is to Use each sub basically for an Octave.
> Rear sub 20-40hz.
> Front sub 40-80hz
> Midbass 80 or 100hz ish....to whatever


In my Mk V GTI I had no problems with my midbasses, running up to 250Hz, being localized and they were firing into the driver and front passenger's ass cheeks. 150Hz should be fine. True that the low end extension may not be there, but I don't think running the front sub that high will cause any issues.


----------



## Mic10is

quality_sound said:


> In my Mk V GTI I had no problems with my midbasses, running up to 250Hz, being localized and they were firing into the driver and front passenger's ass cheeks. 150Hz should be fine. True that the low end extension may not be there, but I don't think running the front sub that high will cause any issues.


He may not have issues--but speaking from alot of experience with a 10" sub mounted in the exact same location, just a different car--even at 80hz LP bass becomes more localized to the right side instead of being more centered.
Results in alot of EQ balancing etc...ie alot of work to make it stay centered and not drift.


----------



## The Senator

The pods for the B&G's look amazing. Im going to be doing a similar set up in my 06 F150, so Ive been watching your install and waitting patiently for your review of the Neos.


----------



## captainobvious

The Senator said:


> The pods for the B&G's look amazing. Im going to be doing a similar set up in my 06 F150, so Ive been watching your install and waitting patiently for your review of the Neos.


Thanks for the compliment! It's not nearly as nice as a professional would do, but they look decent enough I suppose.

I'm working on tuning the system so I should reserve any serious comments until that's done, but the BG neo drivers have a very nice, articulate sound.


----------



## thebookfreak58

captainobvious said:


> I spent hours yesterday troubleshooting noise issues (as well as installing a new battery and wires). I kept getting a clicking sound with some static and some whine which was engine speed dependent (increasing in frequency with engine rpm). The clicking happens in the accessory position and while running. I would normally associate this with a ground loop, but figured I had done pretty well heading that off in the initial installation by running a separate 4 gauge to battery positive and a 4 gauge ground to chassis as shown in some previous pics. After investigating, the noises are actually audible as well in the engine compartment (and each comes from a different component). I'm not sure where they are originating, but I've found that the line driver will exacerbate the noise if the gain level is increased, rendering it useless. Using the head unit alone, I don't find the issue audible. I tried moving the ground to a different location, tried grounding the source and line driver in the same location as the amps and also tried grounding the head unit separate from the line driver and amps. None of those made a difference.
> In the end, I just connected up the head unit direct to the amps and I don't get any noise...


I am also in the process of finishing an install in a BL Mazda 3 (not a speed 3) and I have similar noise issues. I am using a 80PRS and even when I was just using the internal amp and no RCA's I was getting track skip and pop noises (nothing engine dependant though). The H/U is powered/grounded from the internal harness. I previously had the same H/U in a Corolla and it was a silent night.

Now that the system is pretty much complete (will do a build log soon) I still have track pops and I have a very slight turn on/off pop. But the strange thing is, I also have a big pop when engaging the electric mirrors!

Seems like these cars are filled with noise...


----------



## captainobvious

thebookfreak58 said:


> I am also in the process of finishing an install in a BL Mazda 3 (not a speed 3) and I have similar noise issues. I am using a 80PRS and even when I was just using the internal amp and no RCA's I was getting track skip and pop noises (nothing engine dependant though). *The H/U is powered/grounded from the internal harness.* I previously had the same H/U in a Corolla and it was a silent night.
> 
> Now that the system is pretty much complete (will do a build log soon) I still have track pops and I have a very slight turn on/off pop. But the strange thing is, I also have a big pop when engaging the electric mirrors!
> 
> Seems like these cars are filled with noise...


I'm sorry to hear that 
The first thing I would absolutely recommend doing is grounding that headunit directly to the chassis at a solid metal area. Don't use the factory harness for the ground. Now, of course there are other things that could be causing your issue, but that's the first thing I would change. Did you run any other new wires in the car or are you using the stock speakers and wires as well?


----------



## thebookfreak58

captainobvious said:


> I'm sorry to hear that
> The first thing I would absolutely recommend doing is grounding that headunit directly to the chassis at a solid metal area. Don't use the factory harness for the ground. Now, of course there are other things that could be causing your issue, but that's the first thing I would change. Did you run any other new wires in the car or are you using the stock speakers and wires as well?


Oh I totally agree. It is on the to-do list. My point is that the Mazda 3 seems to be quite noisy from factory 

Yeah all new wire has been run for speakers, RCA's, power etc etc


----------



## captainobvious

Yep I agree. Good luck with your and be sure to keep a build log here with your progress!


----------



## Doc69

You build looks fantastic!! I am also fixing to install a Zapco 150.6 and run my highs a mids and then have a Zapco 2-KD for my sub...I was curious what gauge power wire you ran to that distribution block and what gauge out of it directly to your amps? This info would help me out tremendously as Im confused on largest gauge you can actually run to the amp itself. Thanks


----------



## captainobvious

Doc69 said:


> You build looks fantastic!! I am also fixing to install a Zapco 150.6 and run my highs a mids and then have a Zapco 2-KD for my sub...I was curious what gauge power wire you ran to that distribution block and what gauge out of it directly to your amps? This info would help me out tremendously as Im confused on largest gauge you can actually run to the amp itself. Thanks



Nice! You'll like the Zapco's, they are plenty powerful and sound great. I ran 1/0awg wire to the distribution block and 4awg out of the distro to the amps. I would recommend doing 1/0 from the distro to the amps as it is a better fit for the amplifier compression connection. (The amps accept 1/0 at their power input terminals). The speaker connections can fit 10awg for sure.


----------



## Doc69

captainobvious said:


> Nice! You'll like the Zapco's, they are plenty powerful and sound great. I ran 1/0awg wire to the distribution block and 4awg out of the distro to the amps. I would recommend doing 1/0 from the distro to the amps as it is a better fit for the amplifier compression connection. (The amps accept 1/0 at their power input terminals). The speaker connections can fit 10awg for sure.


Ok this is what I was wondering for sure...I cant seem to find a distribution block that has 1/0 in and 2-1/0's out though. And I am going to need a 100 amp fuse for the 150.6 and a 200 amp fuse for the Z 2-KD. Plus a 300 amp fuse next to the battery terminal as well. Looks like I can get that Stinger 6201 package to run from my battery but I still need a good distribution block. Do you or anyone know where I can find one with 1/0 in and 2-1/0's out with a 100 amp and a 200 amp fuse like an all in one type? Thanks


----------



## Thunderplains

Hey CO.. LOOKS AWESOME.. I did the RG6 thing with my setup too and I have to say, even though they are bulky, I *BELIEVE* noise is greatly reduced from my old cables..
Looking forward to seeing the end product..


----------



## hiroman_77

Doc69 said:


> Ok this is what I was wondering for sure...I cant seem to find a distribution block that has 1/0 in and 2-1/0's out though. And I am going to need a 100 amp fuse for the 150.6 and a 200 amp fuse for the Z 2-KD. Plus a 300 amp fuse next to the battery terminal as well. Looks like I can get that Stinger 6201 package to run from my battery but I still need a good distribution block. Do you or anyone know where I can find one with 1/0 in and 2-1/0's out with a 100 amp and a 200 amp fuse like an all in one type? Thanks


Knukonceptz product detail for KONFUSED 2/3/4 WAY DISTRIBUTION POWER & GROUND BLOCK

I haven't seen any reviews but from the diagrams they provide it'll do what you are asking. Best of luck on your build.


----------



## captainobvious

Doc69 said:


> Ok this is what I was wondering for sure...I cant seem to find a distribution block that has 1/0 in and 2-1/0's out though. And I am going to need a 100 amp fuse for the 150.6 and a 200 amp fuse for the Z 2-KD. Plus a 300 amp fuse next to the battery terminal as well. Looks like I can get that Stinger 6201 package to run from my battery but I still need a good distribution block. Do you or anyone know where I can find one with 1/0 in and 2-1/0's out with a 100 amp and a 200 amp fuse like an all in one type? Thanks



Fusing and power/ground are no issue with the Streetwires CBR44 distribution block. It accepts ring terminal in's (so any input gauge you want) and does 4gauge outs. You really don't NEED anything larger than that for such short runs. I just think it would look a little cleaner with the larger gauge going into the amp terminals is all. Doesn't look bad by any stretch though with 4 gauge.


----------



## Doc69

hiroman_77 said:


> Knukonceptz product detail for KONFUSED 2/3/4 WAY DISTRIBUTION POWER & GROUND BLOCK
> 
> I haven't seen any reviews but from the diagrams they provide it'll do what you are asking. Best of luck on your build.


WOW that is exactly what I was looking for!! Thanks so much


----------



## captainobvious

A few pics of the dash and a-pillar area:


----------



## captainobvious

papasin said:


> I like where this is going...looking good .
> 
> As for kicks vs. a-pillars for mids, maybe wire it up and see what you like better?



Rich-

I'm actually messing around with this currently. I think I get very good sound and good tonality with the kick setup, but I do find it frustrating that the imaging gets diffused when I'm driving around and my leg is blocking the mid. 
I think it's even more exaggerated due to the fact that they are very on-axis. The old setup I used in a previous car in kicks was a HAT L4 and L1pro and I didn't notice any of that deflection. I think it was due to the orientation of the drivers. Those were very of axis, basically cross firing at each other almost 90 degrees off axis. Because the sound propagating to the ears was mainly indirect/reflected sound, this seemed to work quite well. I also had a stage centered high (mid windshield) which was pretty interesting, and unexpected.

Anyway, I'm playing around with a few ideas to see if I like the result any better. Of course, these are just layed in there so there's not much back wave isolation for the mids (Tweeters have a sealed back cup anyway) but it at least gives me an idea of the potential.










I have also tried the reverse configuration (mids in pillars, tweets on dash). Industrial strength velcro rocks btw.



.


----------



## bassfromspace

captainobvious said:


> Rich-
> 
> I'm actually messing around with this currently. I think I get very good sound and good tonality with the kick setup, but I do find it frustrating that the imaging gets diffused when I'm driving around and my leg is blocking the mid.
> I think it's even more exaggerated due to the fact that they are very on-axis. The old setup I used in a previous car in kicks was a HAT L4 and L1pro and I didn't notice any of that deflection. I think it was due to the orientation of the drivers. Those were very of axis, basically cross firing at each other almost 90 degrees off axis. Because the sound propagating to the ears was mainly indirect/reflected sound, this seemed to work quite well. I also had a stage centered high (mid windshield) which was pretty interesting, and unexpected.
> 
> Anyway, I'm playing around with a few ideas to see if I like the result any better. Of course, these are just layed in there so there's not much back wave isolation for the mids (Tweeters have a sealed back cup anyway) but it at least gives me an idea of the potential.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have also tried the reverse configuration (mids in pillars, tweets on dash). Industrial strength velcro rocks btw.
> 
> 
> 
> .


How are you liking the Neo 8's lying flat, specifically as it relates to the low end?


----------



## captainobvious

I think they have very good lower midrange detail. Male voices sound full. In fact, because they are up closer to me and not down near the legs, I think I get a little better resolution/detail. They're actually a little fuller sounding in that range, and there are some peaky areas of course (expected with them firing into the windshield area), but that is without any eq to flatten it out, and in a very rough temporary setting. 

These are excellent drivers 

They also sound very good in the pillars cross firing with the neo3s placed on the dash way up in the corners.


----------



## bassfromspace

Great to hear!

BG Radia's got some interesting mounting configurations with their drivers. I'm thinking of mounting my Neo 3 on top of the Neo 10, as a way to conserve space.

Check out their website.

bgcorp.com


----------



## captainobvious

bassfromspace said:


> Great to hear!
> 
> BG Radia's got some interesting mounting configurations with their drivers. I'm thinking of mounting my Neo 3 on top of the Neo 10, as a way to conserve space.
> 
> Check out their website.
> 
> bgcorp.com



Yeah I've seen some of those. Interesting for sure


----------



## bassfromspace

BTW, where'd you pick up your dash mat at?


----------



## subiemax

Does anyone know what kind of signal is coming from the stock HU to the Blose amp? My amp doesn't take speaker level inputs and wondering if I need a line out.


----------



## marshdrummer

subiemax said:


> Does anyone know what kind of signal is coming from the stock HU to the Blose amp? My amp doesn't take speaker level inputs and wondering if I need a line out.


I have a 12....There was a test over on Mazda Revolution - HU to amp is a flat signal. Great to tap into if you're using a sound processor or LOC. I only added a sub/amp combo. I unplugged the bose sub in the hatch and used a high level input to run my amp (alpine MRP-m50 I think is the model number)


----------



## captainobvious

bassfromspace said:


> BTW, where'd you pick up your dash mat at?


Sorry, totally didn't see this ! I got my dash mat from dash designs. It's very nice.


----------



## subiemax

I have a Kenwood X4R, which has processing, but but doesn't take speaker level inputs. Do I need a LOC, or a line driver? Wondering what kind of signal it puts out.


----------



## subiemax

Brain fart here. Somehow I got it in my head that there one set of inputs going from the hu to the Blose amp and was trying to figure out if they were high or low level. There are front and rear.
Just ordered the Pac p&p LOC. See how that goes.


----------



## JayinMI

How does being front and rear determine if they are low level or high level? Usually* the asian cars that use Bose use a low(er) level signal between the HU and the amp. It's pretty typical that you would tap a signal right there, w/o a LOC. At least that's been my experience.

I know there are a couple of Mazda3 and 6 builds on here, maybe check those out and see who did what.


*YMMV

Jay


----------



## subiemax

JayinMI said:


> How does being front and rear determine if they are low level or high level? Usually* the asian cars that use Bose use a low(er) level signal between the HU and the amp. It's pretty typical that you would tap a signal right there, w/o a LOC. At least that's been my experience.
> 
> I know there are a couple of Mazda3 and 6 builds on here, maybe check those out and see who did what.
> 
> 
> *YMMV
> 
> Jay


Good point. That's why I was asking. 
I have a plug and play LOC coming already and will use it for convenience. See what the noise is like and go from there.


----------



## captainobvious

It's been quite a while since I've had any updates here as I haven't been able to do much during the winter months with no garage  I've decided to change up some things in the install and part of the reason was the inconsistent sound stage due to the tweeters and mids being on axis in the kicks. They could certainly be integrated in a different manner and still sound excellent (and I still have them in the closet), but I have chosen to move to a different setup for this season and we'll see how it works out. I'm switching to some different drivers, different amplifiers and a different layout, so quite a bit of change going on here.

Plans are to use the following:

Hybrid Audio L1pro tweeter
Hybrid Audio L3pro dome mid
Hybrid Audio L8v2 midbass

The midbasses will go in the kicks and the mids and tweeters will be installed up high in the pillars/sails. In testing in my vehicle, I felt I got the best width with the tweeters in the sail panels, so that's where they will make their home. The mids will be recessed as deep as possible into the pillars to again, retain good width.

Although the cold weather and lack of garage is keeping me sidelined right now, I'm outsourcing some of the work for the totally revamped install to legendary installer extraordinaire Mark Worrell. If you haven't seen Marks work yet, a small sampling of his genius can be found here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...w-mark-worrell-audiomasters-charlotte-nc.html
Mark is currently working on some pillars for me and they are looking quite good so far. They aren't in my hands as of yet, but we're getting closer...

Teaser:






More to come...


----------



## ecbmxer

Looking good! I definitely gained some width when I added tweeters to my 3" wideband/mids that are in the pillars.


----------



## Notloudenuf

Yeah......ummm......that's pretty badass

#Doctor

If fiberglass cured cancer this guy would win the Nobel Prize


----------



## casey

Looking great Steve. Those pillars are looking amazing so far


----------



## bertholomey

I've seen them in person ? they look even better, live and in color! I'm super excited to see the finished product with those fantastic domes mounted!


----------



## captainobvious

Me too Jay! Thanks guys  Did you get to see them wrapped/stitched yet Jay?


----------



## Black Rain

I look forward to seeing the finished product. Mark is an awesome installer/fabricator. Hope to see you andvyour upgrades at Spring Meet.


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks Juan!


----------



## bertholomey

captainobvious said:


> Me too Jay! Thanks guys  Did you get to see them wrapped/stitched yet Jay?


I saw them pre-covered.....but I was blown away by the pics of the wrapped/stitched finished product!


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> I saw them pre-covered.....but I was blown away by the pics of the wrapped/stitched finished product!


Speaking of...here's a couple for the mob


----------



## subiemax

Sexy!!!

Whats going in the holes??


----------



## casey

oh ****!


----------



## captainobvious

subiemax said:


> Sexy!!!
> 
> Whats going in the holes??


There are so many ways that could be answered.... :laugh:


Here's the explanation... The cutouts serve two purposes...the first is that I have the ability to install tweeters behind the panels in the future should I choose to do so. However, the main purpose of these cutouts was to reduce early reflections by removing a section of the hard plastic and replacing it with acoustic treatment behind the panel and a grill cloth grill covering it. Part of the mid would have been firing off the plastic so this should help. I'd like to take credit, but The Doctor had the brilliant idea and I was totally on board. Can't wait to get these pillars test fitted and see them with that beautiful machined aluminum Hybrid Audio L3pro dome mid seated in there


----------



## captainobvious

casey said:


> oh ****!


----------



## OSN

captainobvious said:


> Speaking of...here's a couple for the mob


That will be fantastic with the interior theme.


----------



## captainobvious

Here's one more updated pic with the grill section completed. Mark Worell is a master of his craft.




I have a show coming up in 2 weeks and the car is totally stripped right now. I need to just get this system slopped together however possible so that I have something working to try to earn some points to kick off the season at the Syracuse Customs IASCA event on April 5th.

The real meat of this build will be taking place late in April before the Spring NC meet.


----------



## kelrog

Yeah, those are hot.


----------



## papasin

Very nice Steve.


----------



## diy.phil

that's like some designer stuff


----------



## Blown Mustang GT

Looking good. Can't wait to see & hear it on the 5th.


----------



## edouble101

Shwweet!!! 

I am anxious to see how well they blend in with the rest of the interior.


----------



## bertholomey




----------



## captainobvious

edouble101 said:


> Shwweet!!!
> 
> I am anxious to see how well they blend in with the rest of the interior.



Well, some of the interior is out right now  But here you go...


----------



## quality_sound

Those. Are. Siiiiiiiick. 

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


----------



## dgr932

"Behold the gifted one has produced the 8th and 9th wonders of the world" 

Zeus' thunderbolt, Hades' pitchfork, and Poseidon's trident were used to create these but Mark would never admit this


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks guys. I'm pretty excited to see whats next in this car for Mark now 

On my side, I'll be running all new power, speaker and signal cabling in the car before my trip to NC. I have some sweet new custom signal cables coming from SounDrive (WestCo) http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...bles-high-fidelity-great-noise-rejection.html
and I'm upgrading the main power run to a 2/0 copper welding cable to supply power to the mighty Zed amplifiers I'm going to be running. Since this will be a very high power system, speaker wire will be 14 gauge to all front speakers and 8 gauge to the sub. (Only because I have nothing larger than 14awg outside of some 8awg I have laying around)
Of course all wiring will get my usual techflex, heatshrink treatment. I also still have to work on the kick enclosures a bit as well since they will now be housing a HAT L8v2 which has a slightly larger outer diameter than the previous JL ZR800's. Plenty of stuff in the works for sure!


----------



## kelrog

Since your looking into larger power cable runs with the welding cable, you may want to consider new copper terminals. They aren't very pretty, but getting as much copper inline was my goal. 

This is one of my wants when I follow that path eventually.












> ANCOR Marine Grade™ lugs are manufactured from heavy duty annealed tinned copper, providing for maximum current flow.100% tin plated copper resists corrosion from salt and moisture.Seamless barrel design allows for maximum strength when crimped.Closed end design seals out moisture so cables stay dry and corrosion free.
> Lead VS. Tinned Copper Terminals
> Ancor Battery Terminals are 100% tinned plated and do not come loose or lose conductivity like lead terminals.
> Lead terminals are much softer and can loosen due to “cold flow” of the metal and are more subject to oxidation which leads to dangerous power losses.
> Tinned copper terminals are up to 40% more conductive than lead terminals for optimum performance, especially with high amperage devices like inverters and windlasses.


Product Link

defender.com product link

amazon.com


----------



## captainobvious

kelrog said:


> Since your looking into larger power cable runs with the welding cable, you may want to consider new copper terminals. They aren't very pretty, but getting as much copper inline was my goal.
> 
> This is one of my wants when I follow that path eventually.


Thanks Kelrog. Here are the Battery terminals I have and planned to use:

The Streetwires BC2P (positive) and BC2N (Negative) terminals. They include 2 ring terminal connections and are much thinner/lower profile than most terminal connections. They look fantastic.


----------



## casey

Steve those pillars look amazing!! I couldnt picture what was going on 100% without the tweeter covers but now I see the light


----------



## kelrog

Since you like changing your equipment around, maybe you'll try those terminals out and let us know.  

You would think there would be more options for full copper terminals, but there aren't. 

Those streetwires are much prettier though.


----------



## JayinMI

I love the Streetwires stuff I have. Well thought out, nice looking and functional. I used the compression fit 1/0 ends where they connect to my combo distro block, and wanted a waterproof fuse holder that worked the same way...and they don't make one! I went with a Tsunami instead.

I plan to use the same terminals when I switch in my S1200 XS Power battery.

So, the little grille cloth sections are tweeter grills and the other is a mid? Or do I misunderstand? They look freakin' awesome.

Jay


----------



## bertholomey

Kelrog.....I'm in Raleigh this week  

Are you going to the NC Meet in April?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...nc-meet-26-april-2014-near-greensboro-nc.html







.


----------



## TREOSOLS

Steve, I known I told you Christmas was coming,but I didn't know you still had your tree up!


----------



## papasin

TREOSOLS said:


> Steve, I known I told you Christmas was coming,but I didn't know you still had your tree up!


That's a sign of a good installer right there. Doesn't miss the smallest of details.


----------



## Brian_smith06

Those pillars are gorgeous!!!


----------



## Tsmith

I agree with the others. Those pillars look awesome!


----------



## kelrog

bertholomey said:


> Kelrog.....I'm in Raleigh this week
> Are you going to the NC Meet in April?


Wife just had our second baby last week. I'm not going anywhere anytime soon.  

I really want to make it to one of these one day, and check out SQ speed3.


----------



## Notloudenuf

kelrog said:


> Wife just had our second baby last week. I'm not going anywhere anytime soon.


A whole week, geez you need a break. :laugh:


----------



## Coppertone

^^^. Congratulations on the birth of your second child.


----------



## captainobvious

TREOSOLS said:


> Steve, I known I told you Christmas was coming,but I didn't know you still had your tree up!


:laugh:

I was waiting for someone to notice that. Yeah I took the pics of the new terminals back in december but apparently never posted them up.


----------



## kelrog

Notloudenuf said:


> A whole week, geez you need a break. :laugh:


41 hours of induction. Yeah it was pretty much the whole week.


----------



## kelrog

captainobvious said:


> :laugh:
> 
> I was waiting for someone to notice that. Yeah I took the pics of the new terminals back in december but apparently never posted them up.


See did you a favor by mentioning them


----------



## TREOSOLS

#Doctor


----------



## captainobvious

TREOSOLS said:


> #Doctor



You're being paged for surgery on my trunk


----------



## bertholomey




----------



## casey

captainobvious said:


> You're being paged for surgery on my trunk


you dont even wanna see the mess he made of mine :

you will have to wear 

#doctor


----------



## bertholomey

casey said:


> you dont even wanna see the mess he made of mine :
> 
> you will have to wear
> 
> #doctor


There's that dig


----------



## TREOSOLS

bertholomey said:


>


ROSSI ....Well played sir


----------



## bertholomey

TREOSOLS said:


> ROSSI ....Well played sir


He took 2nd at Qatar - V & I were pysched!!!!


----------



## Weightless

Hey Captain,

What's your take on the L3pros?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## captainobvious

Weightless said:


> Hey Captain,
> 
> What's your take on the L3pros?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



My take is this: They are badass. 

Beautiful in both looks and sound. 

What sort of application would you have in mind for them? You really need to have a midbass capable of clean lower midrange and mate them up with a tweeter for the best response. 

The L3pro dome mids have excellent extended midrange sound but I am complimenting them with the L1pro in the same black machined aluminum finish. The plan is to install those in custom sail panels. I did a lot of testing/demoing in this car with various locations and the sail panels really help to extend the width. Midbasses will still be located in the kicks ( I need to tweak them to fit the new L8v2's) as I enjoy having no resonance from door plastics








The location and aiming of the mids and tweeters (combined with the xover points I'll use) are specifically to achieve a balanced power response. While many smaller drivers _*can*_ be used without a tweeter (L3SE), even when aimed on axis you have other issues to battle. Beaming!
As frequency rises, the speaker will begin to beam at a certain point which is dependent on the diameter of the radiating surface. Dispersion continues to narrow as frequency increases beyond that point. When you have your drivers mounted on axis, the _*direct*_ sound may still sound very good to you, however in a car we deal with tons of reflections, especially with drivers mounted near hard surfaces. When a speaker is played into its beaming range, the direct sound and reflected sound will have very different frequency responses because of the hole in the high frequency content off axis. By integrating your drivers properly (driver choice and installation/aiming) and choosing the correct crossover points, you can keep your speakers playing within their beaming range for even response both on _and _off axis. This means that your direct and reflected sound both have a very similar frequency response. In addition, your equalization becomes more effective as well because you're not fighting significant differences between direct vs reflected sound.

Here's another reason why this is important if you're a competitor- Judging. No 2 judges are of equal proportions.


----------



## Black Rain

Everything seems to be coming along great. Look forward to seeing all these new changes and sound in person at the GTG. Keep it up, awesome work.


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks Juan!


----------



## Weightless

I'm wanting to run a mid in between my 8" and tweet. I have 5 pairs of 8's that are sitting on a shelf in my garage, so filling in the bottom end is not going to be a problem. I'm also not worried about the tweeter right now, I have plenty to choose from. It's the mid that is where I am stuck.

The L3Pro will be mounted high toward the front of the door and the tweeter will either be mounted slightly above it or in the A-pillar. The main reason why I am looking at the L3Pros is because of the rear chamber. And the looks of course...the black machined aluminum is pure sex. I'm just unsure about the sound.

I've tried finding someone near me who has them installed, but no luck. Any chance on coming down to DC Metro any time soon? 

BTW, I agree with quality_sound, your A-pillars are sick.

Good job.





captainobvious said:


> My take is this: They are badass.
> 
> Beautiful in both looks and sound.
> 
> What sort of application would you have in mind for them? You really need to have a midbass capable of clean lower midrange and mate them up with a tweeter for the best response.
> 
> The L3pro dome mids have excellent extended midrange sound but I am complimenting them with the L1pro in the same black machined aluminum finish. The plan is to install those in custom sail panels. I did a lot of testing/demoing in this car with various locations and the sail panels really help to extend the width. Midbasses will still be located in the kicks ( I need to tweak them to fit the new L8v2's) as I enjoy having no resonance from door plastics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The location and aiming of the mids and tweeters (combined with the xover points I'll use) are specifically to achieve a balanced power response. While many smaller drivers _*can*_ be used without a tweeter (L3SE), even when aimed on axis you have other issues to battle. Beaming!
> As frequency rises, the speaker will begin to beam at a certain point which is dependent on the diameter of the radiating surface. Dispersion continues to narrow as frequency increases beyond that point. When you have your drivers mounted on axis, the _*direct*_ sound may still sound very good to you, however in a car we deal with tons of reflections, especially with drivers mounted near hard surfaces. When a speaker is played into its beaming range, the direct sound and reflected sound will have very different frequency responses because of the hole in the high frequency content off axis. By integrating your drivers properly (driver choice and installation/aiming) and choosing the correct crossover points, you can keep your speakers playing within their beaming range for even response both on _and _off axis. This means that your direct and reflected sound both have a very similar frequency response. In addition, your equalization becomes more effective as well because you're not fighting significant differences between direct vs reflected sound.
> 
> Here's another reason why this is important if you're a competitor- Judging. No 2 judges are of equal proportions.


----------



## captainobvious

Once the install is done (after NC spring meet) we can hook up. I think they are actually perfect for what youre doing.


----------



## MiloX

Awesome work! Those pillars are siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick!!


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks!



I'm working on a temporary mounting solution for the amps so I can get things up and running for the show next weekend, and to get me through until late April. I'll utilize the existing sub enclosure and bolt this in next to it to secure the amplifiers.


----------



## alyks

+1 great. awesome work)


----------



## splaudiohz

sub'd


----------



## captainobvious

In the trunk... slow but steady progress. Sorry for the poor pics.


----------



## captainobvious

Waiting for my RCAs to arrive so until then, I'm trying to knock out some of the other work to be done to get me by until late April. 
The mids have found a home in the beautiful pillars by Mark, so I'm working on fabbing up some temporary sail panel enclosures for the tweeters. Hole saws and some patience...


----------



## Black Rain

I like rings. I need to build me a couple of those for my CDT ES-02s.


----------



## MiloX

That's some mighty fine hole saw work. So tedious.


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks Brian 

I cut the sail panels last night and rough sanded them. The taped and sprayed some expanding foam. Once that cures, I'll be able to sand to a rough shape and apply some bondoglass (short fiber reinforced) and get cracking on getting these things sanded and finished out. (hopefully tonight as time is running out)


----------



## captainobvious

More work on the sails...












And working on trying to make the source mount/adapter a little nicer and able to accommodate the RA. Still rough but getting there.


----------



## captainobvious

A few more pics. I tried to at least pretty the pieces up a bit so they wouldnt stick out.
The dash bezel was being sanded by hand and I had some rip out, oh well. I could have taken 3 times as long and made this piece perfect, but I'm on limited time and this is a temporary solution so I can live with it. I have a ton to do still to get ready for the show Saturday.


----------



## captainobvious




----------



## splaudiohz

captainobvious said:


>




Oh that flaw on bottom left of the RA mount is killing me.. fix it...  

You did all this awesome work too !!!


----------



## TREOSOLS

Snickers candy bar + laser pointer.... what are you making!?


----------



## captainobvious

TREOSOLS said:


> Snickers candy bar + laser pointer.... what are you making!?



A mess ? 
:laugh:

Laser guided snicker bombs?



My wife will be happy when I stop tinkering around and get this completed by the #Doctor


----------



## captainobvious

splaudiohz said:


> Oh that flaw on bottom left of the RA mount is killing me.. fix it...
> 
> You did all this awesome work too !!!



I know ! 

I just wanted something to get them mounted in there without looking like total crap to just hold me over until later this month. If I spent 2 hours on it, I could make it look perfect and do it the right way...just didnt have the time so I was crunching to get it done. Same with the sail panels. Just a temporary piece.


----------



## casey

steve that stuff looks great as well, glad to see it coming together!


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks Casey!


----------



## captainobvious

Some great updates to add. Just got done a week in North Carolina working with legendary installer Mark Worrell and we made some fantastic progress on this car. (More like me holding stuff and watching him do his thing  )

First up, a new dash bezel


----------



## captainobvious




----------



## captainobvious

Wiring:

Power wires run through the stock plastic/rubber grommet.









Door wiring...not fun to get wires into these doors.





Drilled out an open area in the factory molex connector to pas through the wires



Wire is channeled then through the rubber boot and along with the factory wires into the door


----------



## Notloudenuf

We want demos!
We want demos!
We want demos!

:crowd gets pepper sprayed:


----------



## captainobvious

Speaker wiring run



With the RCAs









RCAs


----------



## captainobvious

Trunk Ground



Under the car picture. bolted securely to the body metal.



removed paint and secured to a clean surface. This is 2/0awg wire 



Speaker wires all techflexed and heatshrinked nicely.



Under the Hood:



2/0awg was run for the main power wire and the other one shown is a direct run to power the head unit. Techflex and heatshrink as usual.



Connected tat the battery with a Streetwires BC2P terminal which provides 2 lugs for ring terminals. A very nice piece.


----------



## casey

everything looked awesome Steve. I just saw Erins pics of the trunk in low lighting. Ridiculous! Good to meet you in person, and cant wait to hear it at the next gtg


----------



## bertholomey

Notloudenuf said:


> We want demos!
> We want demos!
> We want demos!
> 
> :crowd gets pepper sprayed:


AWESOME! That is hilarious!!!!

Awesome build Steve - you and Mark did a fantastic job this past week.


----------



## captainobvious

As seen previously in the build log, I had made up some kick panel enclosures to house the 8" midbasses. I never got around to integrating them into the factory kick plastic for a cohesive look however. Mark and I had some ideas and this is what he came up with:

First, the existing enclosures, after Mark took the time to widen the openings to allow for the larger L8v2 (previously housed a JL ZR800) and freshly carpeted.





They fit the L8v2s now perfectly



The enclosures sit very tightly into the corners of the kicks and we installed SDS butyl rope to anchor them in. I had used it previously on these as well and it was incredibly difficult to remove them from the car. That SDS butyl rope is AWESOME stuff. You can use it for a number of different applications. Check out his site to read up about it: Welcome to Sound Deadener Showdown | Sound Deadener Showdown







Wired up and techflexed



Fresh plastic kick panels were trimmed up and then scuffed up with 40 grit to provide a good surface for adhesion of the resin. We also cut out some carboard templates to make our final shapes in wood.



Here are the cutouts Mark made based off of the templates


----------



## captainobvious

Test fitting and adhering to the plastic panels





The pieces were tacked together with screws and CA glue and then resin was applied by Mark to the pieces to seal them up and weatherproof them. He then layed up the pieces with a couple layers of 1.5 ounce fiberglass mat.









Wrapping!


----------



## captainobvious

Enclosure installed and waiting for the new cover piece:













Beautiful press fit grill pieces installed as well


----------



## WestCo

Looks really outstanding Steve!


----------



## captainobvious

And on the other side. Now I need to make some custom mats to keep up with the awesome pieces Mark made!





.....
.....
.....

And onto the highlight of this build- the trunk 

In the mazdaspeed 3, the spare tire well is extremely large in diameter, but very shallow as well (2-3" deep). Mark came up with a fantastic design for the trunk and executed it flawlessly.

Fiberglassing the spare tire well (We used up to 12 layers of ounce and a half in spots to make the shell for the enclosure. It's EXTREMELY strong, yet fairly light weight as well.

The bare trunk:



Deadened with some high quality SDS CLD tiles. This part of the trunk is thinner metal and prone to resonance. I had to use more than the typical treatment amount to get rid of the issues in this area.



Masking off the trunk...Sorry for the low light pics



Mark sprayed in some 3m adhesive and layed in aluminum foil for more protection and to make removal of the shape easier. He covered the entire surface (this shot just shows the beginning of that work)



Boom



After several layers of double 1.5 ounce


----------



## captainobvious

The shell is out (and shown bonded with the back piece)





Mark began working on the top of the enclosure and the sub cutout







Rounded edges and then he installed T nuts for a more secure fit.



Sealing the top and bottom pieces up





Mark added extra fiberglass in the sections of the trunk where there are dips/ridges to provide an even mounting surface for the top piece as you can see here after he flush trimmed the piece to take off the extra edges. Really nice work.


----------



## captainobvious

Building out the top section. Mark included cutouts for the wiring to pass through as well as integrating vents for fans.







The distribution block and switches needed to find a home, so Mark came up with this little diddy. One of my favorite pieces of the install. It's made of HDP and is routed with smooth rounded edges allowing for connection of the power and accessory wires.









All of the holes were tapped and threaded- Mark is a true professional.


----------



## captainobvious

The wiring was neatly routed to the proper locations





Vinyl was applied to the sub baffle front



Glued up



And let the stretching begin! Carpet time



Test fitting



Notice the LED accent lighting around the top edges inside the piece 

Setting the mood...


----------



## captainobvious

The sub cover with perforated stainless steel mesh insert for protection and breathability.





Top cover panel is being routed and then had the edges shaped with some fiberglass filler to make a higher quality look to the finished piece.



Amps and wires connected to the amps and test fit.


----------



## WestCo

Get's better and better!


----------



## captainobvious

Notloudenuf said:


> We want demos!
> We want demos!
> We want demos!
> 
> :crowd gets pepper sprayed:


Hahaha! I know I felt badly too. I really wanted to be able to get people in there. (For those that weren't there, one of my new midbasses had a rubbing coil out of the box, so demos werent really possible).
I'll be back down for the Fall meet, assuming Jay puts one on again though, so no worries.



casey said:


> everything looked awesome Steve. I just saw Erins pics of the trunk in low lighting. Ridiculous! Good to meet you in person, and cant wait to hear it at the next gtg


Same here Casey, it was nice to finally meet you. That Civic of yours is going to be pretty epic when Mark is finished with it. REALLY nice work going on in there.



bertholomey said:


> AWESOME! That is hilarious!!!!
> 
> Awesome build Steve - you and Mark did a fantastic job this past week.


Thanks Jay! And thanks for hosting a terrific GTG- as usual. I look forward to these events and really enjoy hanging out with you and the NC crowd.
Oh, and I did a nice job of holding things while I gawked at Marks awesome work  



WestCo said:


> Looks really outstanding Steve!


Thanks Joe! Everyone was impressed by the extremely nice looking RCAs !


----------



## casey

that trunk is just awesome Steve. I know you are stoked. You heard me laugh and say oh my gawwd when I came over and you had the covers off.


----------



## captainobvious

You know it! Mark is one hell of an installer. I had an idea of what direction I wanted to go and he made it _*significantly *_better.


----------



## req

got dang!

that looks awesome.

kick panel grills - A+ 
subwoofer\amprack - A+ (ive always liked "floating amps" with the cables going under them)
new dash bezel - A+
distribution panel - A+

really, over all - awesome.

the thing that i like the most, was the small detail of adding filler to the amp rack where it meets with the hatch opening. i really like that a lot.

and i will use his trick of covering things in aluminum foil when fiberglass - thats a great idea i never thought of to keep stuff clean. thanks mark lol.


----------



## BlueAc

That looks amazing. I'd love to hear it some time *hint hint*. Once I get my new radio installed maybe we can meet up to sample each other's stereo.


----------



## captainobvious

req said:


> got dang!
> 
> that looks awesome.
> 
> kick panel grills - A+
> subwoofer\amprack - A+ (ive always liked "floating amps" with the cables going under them)
> new dash bezel - A+
> distribution panel - A+
> 
> really, over all - awesome.
> 
> the thing that i like the most, was the small detail of adding filler to the amp rack where it meets with the hatch opening. i really like that a lot.
> 
> and i will use his trick of covering things in aluminum foil when fiberglass - thats a great idea i never thought of to keep stuff clean. thanks mark lol.



Dude...I learned so much awesomeness from a week hanging with Mark. The guy is a freaking wizard. The foil trick was just one of the many lessons learned. That's what 30 years installing does for you I guess. I laugh when I think about how we would discuss how to approach building one piece or another. I would build to "good enough" standard whereas Mark settles for nothing less than perfect. That's the difference between an average installer and an elite level installer. I'd say there might be 10 guys in the whole country who can fab like Mark Worrell does. 





BlueAc said:


> That looks amazing. I'd love to hear it some time *hint hint*. Once I get my new radio installed maybe we can meet up to sample each other's stereo.



Sure thing!


----------



## req

i know that if i had the time and tools i could prolly pull of some neat stuff.

sigh... ill have to stick to looking at build threads like this, JT, stuff from simplicity in sound, and roblop amongst others haha.


----------



## Black Rain

I have to say, that after seeing it on Saturday. .. Wow. Now when you look at the work you and Mark put into it, its amazing. Thats one of the best break downs of how you built out your AP kicks and their cover panels. Steve and Mark keep it up. I'm trying to get my skill leve and knowledge there. Hopefully it'll be ready by the next GTG. Gots to get me a Demo.


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks Juan (and Andy). There are so many little intricate things you don't notice at first glance and then you look closer and say "oh sh--" ! Like the elevated mounting of the amplifiers. The install incorporates 2 fans for cooling of the amplifiers, which are signaled by the remote lead (and relays) and are in a push/pull configuration to keep airflow circulating. The amplifiers are actually sitting on steel standoffs to raise them off the floor 3/4". This not only allows the wiring to enter the structure in a clean, hidden way- it also allows for cooling air across all surfaces of the amplifiers- genius design.


----------



## JayinMI

captainobvious said:


> RCAs


Interested in those RCA ends. What brand are they and where did you get them? Also, how long are they? They looks very nice!

Jay


----------



## TREOSOLS

looking around for my apprentice....its fun playing with the cool kids


----------



## sirbOOm

ZED AMPS!!! YEAH!


----------



## captainobvious

And the shots of what the trunk looks like when you open it up:










I wanted a stock appearance and Mark nailed it. You'd never know what awesomeness is lurking below


----------



## captainobvious

TREOSOLS said:


> looking around for my apprentice....its fun playing with the cool kids


hahaha! It was a blast !


----------



## captainobvious

Sail panels were completed by Mark and sent out my way. The texture came out awesome. They look like a factory installed piece.




















I'm also changing out the source to go all digital and use an ipad mini. More to come on that...


.


----------



## thehatedguy

Mark doesn't fiberglass without aluminum foil.

Wish I could have came and hung out some...but mad engine troubles with my car right now. Putting a big slow down on getting the Tannoys in the car.


----------



## Notloudenuf

The #Doctor has been hard at work.


----------



## dgr932

Awesome tweeter pods, he makes it look so easy yet amazing. 

Nice work Mark!

Enjoy Steve


----------



## bertholomey

These really look amazing - pretty much stock....but so much better than stock. Will sound amazing as well.


----------



## req

the only question is what on earth is that big speaker grill in the a pillar?











i cant figure this part out lol.


----------



## Notloudenuf

captainobvious said:


> There are so many ways that could be answered.... :laugh:
> 
> 
> Here's the explanation... The cutouts serve two purposes...the first is that I have the ability to install tweeters behind the panels in the future should I choose to do so. However, the main purpose of these cutouts was to reduce early reflections by removing a section of the hard plastic and replacing it with acoustic treatment behind the panel and a grill cloth grill covering it. Part of the mid would have been firing off the plastic so this should help. I'd like to take credit, but The Doctor had the brilliant idea and I was totally on board. Can't wait to get these pillars test fitted and see them with that beautiful machined aluminum Hybrid Audio L3pro dome mid seated in there


See above


----------



## Bluenote

This is beautiful! How much power are the L3 Pros getting?


----------



## captainobvious

Bluenote said:


> This is beautiful! How much power are the L3 Pros getting?


Well if we were to get technical, it would be much less that's *actually *being used, but as far as potential from the amplifiers (RMS rated power)... here is the layout:

L1pro's: 600w each
L3pro's: 600w each
L8v2's: 600w each
JL 13TW5: 1000w

Basically there's enough "dynamic headroom" to cause a 4 alarm'er


----------



## casey

i feel like you may be under powering, but im no expert


----------



## Coppertone

^^^^. Lol, too funny.


----------



## crea_78

captainobvious said:


> Well if we were to get technical, it would be much less that's *actually *being used, but as far as potential from the amplifiers (RMS rated power)... here is the layout:
> 
> L1pro's: 600w each
> L3pro's: 600w each
> L8v2's: 600w each
> JL 13TW5: 1000w
> 
> Basically there's enough "dynamic headroom" to cause a 4 alarm'er


WOW, that is some serious front end power!

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Bluenote

captainobvious said:


> Well if we were to get technical, it would be much less that's *actually *being used, but as far as potential from the amplifiers (RMS rated power)... here is the layout:
> 
> L1pro's: 600w each
> L3pro's: 600w each
> L8v2's: 600w each
> JL 13TW5: 1000w
> 
> Basically there's enough "dynamic headroom" to cause a 4 alarm'er [/
> 
> Yes, that's headroom for sure...it would be cool if you could post a review on the L3 Pro.


----------



## captainobvious

casey said:


> i feel like you may be under powering, but im no expert


:laugh:



Bluenote said:


> Yes, that's headroom for sure...it would be cool if you could post a review on the L3 Pro.


I'll certainly do that after it's all rockin' and tuned up


----------



## captainobvious

Got a little work done today. Not quite up to "#Doctor" quality level, but I'm happy with the beginnings considering I'm working out of my living room...

It's official. The P99RS is out and the new digital setup is on its way in. First up, I had to disassemble the trunk in order to reconfigure some wiring and to find a suitable home for the processor. The board was carpeted and pre-drilled for Hex cap bolts and lock nuts all around. To mount the panel to the trunk, I used (3) 1/4-20 bolts and lock nuts to secure it to the chassis.


----------



## casey

nice Steve! I go to Mark because I have no skills. Looks like you can hold your own. Now stop changing stuff so you can get this beast playing and tuned


----------



## captainobvious

Hah! Yeah I'm getting there  I'll never have the ability Mark does, but if I can make it look good enough to not muck up what he's done, I'm good to go


----------



## captainobvious

Now that the dsp is mounted and digital signal cables have been routed, I had to get some RCAs from the dsp over to the amps. I had these purdy SounDrive cables from Westco installed before the Mosconi was a consideration, and the fact that they are 17 footers would make for a messy re-installation- can't have that 

So I spent some spare time the last few nights completely tearing down the rca cables and then remaking them to the proper lengths needed. I decided to switch up the RCA connectors as well. The larger ones are a bit bulky and make for a tough connection in the tight quarters where I have the 6to8V8 installed.
I already had 20 of the Monoprice pieces at the house and they are very nice quality as well, so I went with those. (link to these is near the bottom) Cables are made from Canare star quad and dressed up with heatshrink and techflex. I'll also explain how they were made so anyone else interested in making their own cables can see how I did mine.

To start things off, I had to cut the old cables and de-solder the RCA ends:



That's a lot of RCA hardware...



For my system, I use a bridged pair of channels on each speaker. What this means is that I needed to either use Y adapters on the end of a single RCA to split it to 2 inputs on the amp, OR simply make my cables into exact length Y cables. I chose to go the second route to make a cleaner cable and reduce any series resistance of multiple connections along the signal chain. So my cables for the front 3-way setup are all single RCA male to dual RCA male.

I started by measuring out the lengths needed and cutting my pieces. I then applied the techflex covering and used some electrical tape to keep the ends from fraying.



In Canare star quad, there are 4 conductors (2 white, 2 blue) and a braided shield. For lowest resistance, I used all 4 conductors tied together for the tip and the braid for the shield. You could certainly do it other ways as well.

I pulled the shield portion through the little hole provided, soldered and trimmed, then I filled the solder cup for the tip with solder and soldered the 4 conductors to it. After that, I used hot glue between and around the connections to keep them from moving or grounding together, and then followed that up with a piece of clear heatshrink over the connections. It's probably overkill to go to this length, but I didn't want any issues.





Next, I slid the ends on and screwed them on tightly.



I followed that up with some heatshrink over the ass end of the rca barrel and part of the cable. This helps to offer a little strain relief and looks good IMO.





Repeat for the remaining, and wha-la






I've still got one more pair to make for the subwoofer amp as I ran out of RCA connectors (ordered some more up from Monoprice). 
Link to the Monoprice RCA barrels: 
Premium RCA Plug - Monoprice.com

They have discount pricing in volume and they are very reasonably priced. You may want to consider the Neutrik Rean rca connectors as well in this price range as they are hard to beat for the money. I went with the Monoprice units because I already had 20 of them, otherwise the Reans would have been the choice.


Anyway, once I make the last cable up I can start re-assembling the trunk and focus on the exciting plans for things going on up front


----------



## kelrog

Yeah.... All I saw was reeses pieces..... now I want some. Thanks. 









Those rca barrels look really nice from monoprice. I love black heat shrink, but a few pops of color would make installing a bit easier. Are you going to label them as well?


----------



## captainobvious

kelrog said:


> Yeah.... All I saw was reeses pieces..... now I want some. Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those rca barrels look really nice from monoprice. I love black heat shrink, but a few pops of color would make installing a bit easier. Are you going to label them as well?



Yeah, I'm a fan of the "pieces" 

Yeah, the monoprice RCAs are actually quite nice. I also always order my speaker wiring from them too. You cant beat their price and its very good quality ofc copper wire too.
The only real pop of color on these cables is the red piping on the techflex. As for making it easier during installation- yes I'll be labeling them. I have plenty of clear heatshrink and a labeling device- just have to get a fresh spool of the label maker tape.


----------



## captainobvious

I already tested the AMAS streaming inside the house by hooking up the 6to8 to my test bench rig. Connected easily via bluetooth to the ipad and walked around the house streaming hi res songs, adjusting volume, etc. This is really slick. Since I'll have the hard (optical) connection for the ipad in the car, the bluetooth will be an excellent solution for anyone who may get in the car and want to play something from their collection. I'm thinking meets/GTGs where someone hops in with their iphone, syncs up and plays their favorite tests songs all without connecting a wire or loading in a cd 

The way the AMAS bluetooth works on the 6to8v8 is this: You have your source (RCA in or optical/coaxial in) playing...then your synced device begins to play audio. It switches over to whatever the bluetooth source is. I'm thinking this may work for basic cell phone usage for me as well if I sync the iPhone with it for daily driving. I hadn't really found a solution for answering calls while driving yet but this may work. I still need to test that out.


----------



## captainobvious

Next Phase- Motorization 101

Have a look at the dash section so you can see what I'm working with:






I have the following to mount: ipad mini, 1/2din cd/dvd drive and the Mosconi DSP controller. As you can see, there is limited space for all of this gear. The ipad mini and cd drive both use optical digital out direct into the DSP so I need the RCD controller for digital volume control. Because of that, I want the controller mounted in an ergonomically convenient way. I also don't want to have to insert cds under the seat, in the glove box, etc so I want everything up front and easily accessible. To that end, I'm going to give motorization a try and this will be my first foray into it.
My concept is to have the ipad mini slide up to reveal the controller and cd drive *behind *it.

Here is a concept drawing so you can visualize what I'm looking to do:








My original thought was to try a basic linear actuator:



The problem with these units is that they are more than double the length in size for the amount of travel you need. For example, I want about 4" of travel for my piece. This amounts to a linear actuator with a body length of around 8". Much too large for the application unfortunately. Next I considered a linear rail and motor but those too are a bit too bulky. What I decided to try was a basic rack and pinion system utilizing a DC gear motor, an attached pinion toothed gear and a length of toothed rack. The DC gearmotors can be speed controlled by limiting input voltage using resistance and their forward/reverse motion is controlled via reversing the polarity of their power input. 

DC gearmotors: 3-12V Gear Motors

Rack and pinion:







The ipad mini will need to be housed inside of a frame which then has the ability to be pushed up and down a slide system by the motor. What I came up with is a very short pair of ball bearing drawer slides. Something similar to this:




The rack length would be attached to the back of the ipad mini frame offset far to one side (so as to leave plenty of room in the space behind it). The drawer slide rails would be attached on one side to an outer frame that makes up the structure and provides a mounting space for the motor, and on the other side to the ipad frame. As the motor turns and raises the ipad frame, it needs to hit a point where it stops. To force the motor to "stall" at a point, I will use simple stainless nuts/bolts on the slide track at the stop points. By selecting a motor with the proper torque, I should have enough power to raise and lower without having too much torque for the structure. I'll utilize a momentary DPDT switch to control the up and down motion of the slide so the motor is only energized while the operator is holding the button in. This eliminates the need for a very complex controller system and reduces the part count.



I finally got some parts in and will hopefully have some time to try to mock something up to test this week/weekend. Stay tuned...


----------



## dgr932

Pretty big plans. some of what i had in plan for the future but to a lesser extent. Curious to see you began fabrication. please don't hold back on the pictures.

Keep up the good work Steve,


----------



## JayinMI

I wonder if, doing it this way, the weight of the iPad will cause it to slide back down. 

You could also use some magnetic reed switches to stop the motor at the end of the run. What about using a power window switch to control it. If you used something like a GM 5-wire reversing polarity switch, you wouldn't need relays.

You might be able to use something like a Pac TR-7 to control timing if not.

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> I wonder if, doing it this way, the weight of the iPad will cause it to slide back down.
> 
> You could also use some magnetic reed switches to stop the motor at the end of the run. What about using a power window switch to control it. If you used something like a GM 5-wire reversing polarity switch, you wouldn't need relays.
> 
> You might be able to use something like a Pac TR-7 to control timing if not.
> 
> Jay



You're on the right track Jay  A power window switch is exactly what I will be using. It's a momentary DPDT switch, no relays. By wiring it up properly, Up and Down are opposite polarity for the direction of the motor. As for the weight of the piece, it's really a matter of using the correct rated motor size. They come in different speeds and torque settings. They also lock in place when no power is applied so no need to worry about it slipping back down


----------



## kelrog

This Mini Track Actuator looks promising too. 
5" Stroke Mini Track Actuator 2" / Sec Speed and 35lbs Force - RobotShop


----------



## captainobvious

kelrog said:


> This Mini Track Actuator looks promising too.
> 5" Stroke Mini Track Actuator 2" / Sec Speed and 35lbs Force - RobotShop



Yeah, I've looked into those and other actuators as well. The problem with them is their length. It may provide 5" of linear travel, but at rest it's 10" in length from mounting hole to mounting hole so they simply won't fit in the space there


----------



## kelrog

Have you looked at a stepper motor? https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9238


----------



## captainobvious

kelrog said:


> Have you looked at a stepper motor? https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9238



Yep. They are pretty slick as well, but would require the same hardware as far as gears/rack, etc and they come with the added bonus of being able to have amazing control of the motor, however they require controller boards, etc which further complicate the process :blush:


----------



## captainobvious

I started mocking up the test piece to see if it's feasible. I got about half way there, but need to pick up some nuts and screws to finish the structure assembly. Then it's on to wiring it up with a switch and testing her out.


Pics of current progress:


First I cut out an ABS plate and drilled out mount holes to mate up with the drawer slides. The I cut out an MDF back plate which would theoretically be the face panel for the cd drive and DRC controller behind the ipad.





It moves freely up and down to its locked positions





Note the space between the two plates. The black one is where the ipad is mounted and underneath is the cd drive. The extra space allows for the DRC knob and for the gear rack.


----------



## captainobvious

The motor and rack/pinion gears:






Here you can see the motor coupling mount which is a hub mount piece. This allows gears of various sizes to be able to be mounted to the motor. 








This geared rack would mount to the back of the enclosure that the ipad mini is mounted in. 




The motor and gear would mount to the back side of the faceplate for the cd drive. A routed cutout section would allow for a portion of the gear to pass through the board and mate up with the rack gears.


----------



## kelrog

nice, looks very promising. where did you find those short drawer rails?


----------



## captainobvious

kelrog said:


> nice, looks very promising. where did you find those short drawer rails?


You can find them on Amazon and searching google. Just look for 6" drawer slides and you'll get some good hits


----------



## captainobvious

OK...the "beta" proof of concept is complete...


Motorized sliding ipad mini panel

(VIDEO)





Pics:












Video (with temp mounted ipad mini- Front View)





Rear View:


----------



## JayinMI

Just a thought...it looks like it drags a little on one side. Could you maybe add something like an axle and another gear/rack on the other side to keep it more level, I guess? I'm pretty impressed. Now is the time when all of us armchair people come out of the woodwork and offer suggestions for the next round. lol

#physiciansassistant ?

lol

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> Just a thought...it looks like it drags a little on one side. Could you maybe add something like an axle and another gear/rack on the other side to keep it more level, I guess? I'm pretty impressed. Now is the time when all of us armchair people come out of the woodwork and offer suggestions for the next round. lol
> 
> #physiciansassistant ?
> 
> lol
> 
> Jay


haha, suggestions are always welcome 

Good catch, yes it does drag a little on the left side (non motor/rack side) which is basically due to two things. The first is that the backboard which the ipad mount is connected to is 1/8" ABS so it's not the most solid substrate for this application. The flex throws things off a bit. The second issue is that the drawer slides I used are the more resistant of the two models that I had sitting here. My other pair are much smoother operation, especially at the extension point. 
On the "production" model, I will almost certainly fore go the drawer slides all together for a more compact variation which provides similar linear motion. I'll likely use something like steel or ideally aluminum for the back plate for excellent strength and light weight.


----------



## JayinMI

Have you given any thought to moving the gear/rack more toward the center, or will there be clearance issues with the DVD and 6to8 Controller? -- (edit...nevermind, I see why it wouldn't work)

Another thought I had was maybe using aluminum c-channel on the sides, and maybe using something like Delrin to make pieces that fit into it to make a slide of sorts. Or maybe some bearings that fit in the c-channel, and sort of bolt to some aluminum angle stock? Lots of ideas going through my head at the moment. 

Really impressed with your build so far. 

Sadly, there is little to no interest in SQ in Michigan where I am. I might have to drive down NC or something to get to check out some nice cars on vacation.

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks, much appreciated!


You and I are on the exact same page. I had the same idea of using some aluminum U channel with bearings (if I find some that fit) or I thought of making some makeshift ones using a few stacked washers. They also make compact linear slides, but they are pretty pricey. A piece of 4 ft 1/2" aluminum U channel is like $6 





JayinMI said:


> Have you given any thought to moving the gear/rack more toward the center, or will there be clearance issues with the DVD and 6to8 Controller? -- (edit...nevermind, I see why it wouldn't work)
> 
> Another thought I had was maybe using aluminum c-channel on the sides, and maybe using something like Delrin to make pieces that fit into it to make a slide of sorts. Or maybe some bearings that fit in the c-channel, and sort of bolt to some aluminum angle stock? Lots of ideas going through my head at the moment.
> 
> Really impressed with your build so far.
> 
> Sadly, there is little to no interest in SQ in Michigan where I am. I might have to drive down NC or something to get to check out some nice cars on vacation.
> 
> Jay


----------



## kelrog

how about ditching the far side drawer rail and replacing it with a tooth/gear rail like on the back. keeping one drawer rail as a guide?


----------



## captainobvious

If I keep one, then I still have the same depth issue. I need to replace the drawer slides (which are nearly 2" deep in their mounted configuration) with a more shallow alternative. I'm thinking some simple aluminum U channel will do the trick. I can save about 1.25" of depth by going with that solution


----------



## captainobvious

Found these:

Sugatsune MRS Linear Rail

and these:

Sugatsune MRS20 Mini Guide Block & Rail Anodized

One of those ought to work well for me. Very compact. I'll just have to trim the metal rail to my needed length and I should be good to go


----------



## captainobvious

Well, the new rails arrived. They are REALLY nice, especially for the crazy low price. Highly recommended! The action is also much smoother and faster than the drawer slides so this should work out brilliantly. As for shoring up the whole assembly, I ordered and will be using a combination of 1/4" and 1/8" solid aluminum extruded plates for construction. By using aluminum, I can go light weight and have very high rigidity as well as use the minimum amount of material space while retaining great strength. I haven't ventured into welding yet, so I'll likely use a combination of drill/tap/screw and bonding adhesive where needed.


A few pics of the new rails as compared with the drawer slides. There are two models of the rails here. I'll be using the smaller of the two.














They are less than half the width of the drawer slides and thinner as well. The slide is made of polymer and has threaded stainless inserts. 


I envision something like this. I drew it up, but I think I may reverse the slide/rail so that the slide mounts to the ipad and the rail mounts to the frame.








.


----------



## sirbOOm

Welding AL-U-MIN-EEE-UM is actually kind of difficult. I go to a local Harley/Hot Rod shop to have welding done if I need it.


----------



## captainobvious

sirbOOm said:


> Welding AL-U-MIN-EEE-UM is actually kind of difficult. I go to a local Harley/Hot Rod shop to have welding done if I need it.


I watched a couple ewe-tube videos and it looks difficult. Plus, I don't have any of the equipment to do it either which is expensive. Tapping threads and using quality hardware along with adhesive if needed should do a fine job though I think. It's a smaller piece and it wont be under much stress.


----------



## req

wow man very cool. im interested to see what its going to look like. its hard to imagine a flat piece over the front of the OEM radio there because of its curvature and shape.


----------



## captainobvious

req said:


> wow man very cool. im interested to see what its going to look like. its hard to imagine a flat piece over the front of the OEM radio there because of its curvature and shape.


Yeah exactly. The *top *of the dash opening is about 2-3" wider than the _bottom _of the dash opening so it has a slant in as well as curvature to the surface with the dash sloping back toward the windshield. I'm trying my best to get the entire frame to *just* fit inside of that lower opening width dimension so that I can build off of the sides of it to meet the dash in some sort of aesthetically pleasing way. It's going to protrude for sure, but less is better and shaping the sides to meet nicely with the dash is going to be key.
I should hopefully have the rest of the pieces arriving this week so I can begin the assembly of the structure, then I can work on building it out


----------



## JayinMI

Making any progress?

Jay


----------



## Yawar538

You really have come a long way with all those DIY efforts along with delicious choice of equipment.


----------



## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> Making any progress?
> 
> Jay


Thanks for continuing to follow along  

I was awaiting a shipment with the proper linear slides and rails to arrive as the site I ordered them from botched the 1st attempt and then the actual units were back ordered. I just received them before the holiday so it's time to get back to work 



Yawar538 said:


> You really have come a long way with all those DIY efforts along with delicious choice of equipment.


Thanks, much appreciated. I still have a little ways to go, but it's getting there!


----------



## captainobvious

Damn these things are so sexy. Much better pics with the new camera.


----------



## crea_78

Nice looking amps!


----------



## casey

awesome pics Steve! If I ever get a chance I will let Mark do mine like that, Im jealous


----------



## sirbOOm

I spy a Leviathan!!!


----------



## JayinMI

Any progress on the motorization?

Jay


----------



## bertholomey

captainobvious said:


> Damn these things are so sexy. Much better pics with the new camera.



Those are great shots - can't remember - did you decide on the 6000?


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> Those are great shots - can't remember - did you decide on the 6000?


Yessir! The Sony A6000 is quite a nice camera. I got some great shots of Philadelphia at night about a week ago. I'll dig them up and post them for you.

Welcome back btw


----------



## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> Any progress on the motorization?
> 
> Jay


Jay-

I have all the parts now. It's "in the works"


----------



## captainobvious

casey said:


> awesome pics Steve! If I ever get a chance I will let Mark do mine like that, Im jealous


White LEDs inside the amp make such a big difference. Really makes it stand out and highlights the beautiful internals. It would look outstanding on those Elites for sure.


----------



## machinehead

Love the way the build is turning out! Both of your build logs will be helpful when I tear down my Mazda 3.

I bought a 2012 skyactiv hatch two and half years ago. I do about 30k miles a year and needed something more efficient after my poor 97 Prelude died(Right in the middle of the audio build up too!!). I searched the build logs and found both of your Mazdas which I just finished reading. I do have some decent equipment laying around: Avalanche 15, Seas Performance 6.5" kit(From 8 years ago) and some Monitor1 amps, however, due to a very strict "NO NEW PROJECTS UNTIL U FINISH YOUR CURRENT ONES" rule and a lack of funds I haven't put thought into installing them yet. I most likely will go from a tablet to minidsps to the amps and get rid of the headunit all together.


----------



## captainobvious

machinehead said:


> Love the way the build is turning out! Both of your build logs will be helpful when I tear down my Mazda 3.
> 
> I bought a 2012 skyactiv hatch two and half years ago. I do about 30k miles a year and needed something more efficient after my poor 97 Prelude died(Right in the middle of the audio build up too!!). I searched the build logs and found both of your Mazdas which I just finished reading. I do have some decent equipment laying around: Avalanche 15, Seas Performance 6.5" kit(From 8 years ago) and some Monitor1 amps, however, due to a very strict "NO NEW PROJECTS UNTIL U FINISH YOUR CURRENT ONES" rule and a lack of funds I haven't put thought into installing them yet. I most likely will go from a tablet to minidsps to the amps and get rid of the headunit all together.


Well if you have any questions as you go through the process, just let me know. Thanks for following along on the builds. I'll be interested to see your progress on your 2012


----------



## machinehead

captainobvious said:


> Well if you have any questions as you go through the process, just let me know. Thanks for following along on the builds. I'll be interested to see your progress on your 2012


Thanks! My main priority with the vehicle right now is some body work due to a hit and run in a parking lot and a deer dodging incident. Taking the opportunity to swap out the stock front and rear valences for aftermarkets and I will add some sides as well. 

This build will present some challenges since the sub requires 2.5 cubes and has an 8" mounting depth. Toss in the mandatory spare tire thanks to my 30k miles a year and my desire to make keep the hatch usable


----------



## DLO13

captainobvious said:


> Damn these things are so sexy. Much better pics with the new camera.



I am typically not a fan of this kind of style (plexi/LED), but Holy Awesomeness. Those are beautiful!


----------



## captainobvious

Finally getting around to working on the tuning of this thing.

This is the RTA result after setting gains with some overlap via oscope and then employing basic crossovers. NO eq or other adjustments as of yet. Just dropping these in here to show the start and then where it goes with some tuning and tweaking.


Full Left and Right + summed response. Left= green, right=blue, Full Response= RED



Tweeter response. Left= Purple, Right=Gold



Midrange response. Left= Green, Right= Purple



Midbass response. Left=Purple, Right=Blue



Sub response:


----------



## captainobvious

These are all at 1/12th octave smoothing and using REW.

Initial thoughts before tuning were that I had some upper midrange peakiness and that is certainly confirmed. I actually really like the mid/sub bass but could use a little more snap. Overall, I need to tame some peaks and even up the Left vs Right side response and then it will be looking pretty good. Might also want to put in a subsonic on the sub at like 10hz -6db/-12db to retain more control and more efficient power as well as to flatten out the response from 40hz down.

This system has some good potential for sure and can be extremely dynamic. Looking forward to seeing where this takes me


----------



## casey

awesome Steve, glad youre finally getting a chance to start getting it dialed in!


----------



## sirbOOm

I am confused by these graphs. Why does the tweeter graph, for example, show more dB response at subwoofer-area Hz ranges than it does in the tweeter range? I'd expect something more like the plots that manufactures on Parts-Express provide with their tweeters that show them tweeter naturally cutting off as the Hz get lower (after a certain point) not decreasing from a high on the left (0 Hz) like these are.

What am I not understanding?


----------



## captainobvious

sirbOOm said:


> I am confused by these graphs. Why does the tweeter graph, for example, show more dB response at subwoofer-area Hz ranges than it does in the tweeter range? I'd expect something more like the plots that manufactures on Parts-Express provide with their tweeters that show them tweeter naturally cutting off as the Hz get lower (after a certain point) not decreasing from a high on the left (0 Hz) like these are.
> 
> What am I not understanding?



Subs were probably on as well during the measurement :blush:


----------



## Black Rain

I am not good at these graph but I was going tk ask the same question. If the sub was on also, I could see why they would appear on the graph.


----------



## captainobvious

Unless I got the high xmax version of HAT L1pro's that play from 10hz-20khz.... ??


----------



## casey

captainobvious said:


> Unless I got the high xmax version of HAT L1pro's that play from 10hz-20khz.... ??


Link?!?!


----------



## captainobvious

So, a few changes to update...

First, I had to do some slight modification to Marks beautiful work on the trunk to accommodate some new power. A little longer length and narrower width. 









I then also removed the white leds and installed the RGB version and wired them all up.









`











The amps will still be elevated off of the floor base with steel standoffs which allows for both neater wire routing as well as better cooling.


----------



## Coppertone

Wow one of those amps looks really familiar lol. Great job as usual Steve, and I'm glad that you've shared it with us.


----------



## captainobvious

Now onto the amps themselves...While I like the look of the carbon vinyl, I don't think it fits well with this build so I made the decision to refinish the amplifiers. The choice was either paint, or polish. Since I don't have my giant compressor and paint supplies anymore- and since I have never attempted an aluminum polishing job before, I decided to go with the latter option. So, that meant it was time to strip the amp and begin the process.

Cover removed:









.

As you can see, it's pretty heavily scratched up and will need a lot of work to look like a nice, polished piece. I believe Matty stripped the paint from these prior to doing the wrap job, so for anyone following along that may want to attempt this themselves, that's a step that would need to be completed as well.


----------



## captainobvious

Coppertone said:


> Wow one of those amps looks really familiar lol. Great job as usual Steve, and I'm glad that you've shared it with us.


Thank you, sir ! 

Still a long way to go, but it's getting there


----------



## captainobvious

Here's the plan- Start with a rougher grit (220) to level out the surface and remove any really deep scratches. move on up to 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1500, then finish with 2000 and some Mothers aluminum polish. Unless of course I get to a point where I think it looks fantastic already and no more additional sanding is necessary.
Some notes about the process-

1. This is all WET sanding. 
2. Add dish soap to a bucket of water and dunk your sandpaper frequently to keep it clean. The soap helps to keep things sanding smoothly and helps keep the paper from getting clogged
3. You should sand in the same direction with one grit, then for the next grit up, change the direction. (For example, with 220 grit I sanded left and right. When I upped it to 400, I sanded up and down). The reason for this is that you want to use each next finer grit to remove the scratches from the previous coarser grit, working your way up to very fine micro scratches. This helps to avoid swirls too.
4. When the sandpaper or workpiece start showing black residue, wipe it off and dunk the sandpaper so your working with clean paper.
5. This is messy business. Wear a pair of latex gloves and have plenty of old towels available.


The back of the amp before starting





After the first round of 220 grit wet:

















What you'll notice first is that this really cleaned up the whole piece pretty well and removed those really deep scratches. Also notice the left to right scratches left by the 220 grit.








.


----------



## captainobvious

Here we are, doing 400 grit and you'll notice I changed direction. I'm using a heavy rubber sanding block (found at your local hardware store) with my paper attached. It is an absolute hand saver and ensures that you are sanding level and not putting any grooves in the piece by using your bare hands. With some pieces of course, this would be necessary, but not for this particular amplifier as its very flat and straight.












And here is the piece after 600 grit (again, changing sanding direction).










That's where it's at for right now. That was about 5-6 hours of work to get it to this point. It's already looking quite a bit better and should be MUCH nicer after I get the next steps done. I'm waiting on my higher grit papers to arrive so progress will resume hopefully late in the week or this weekend.



.


----------



## sirbOOm

My vote: gunmetal gray gloss with red flake. 

Oh wait, you're polishing. Haha. Doy...


----------



## Notloudenuf

captainobvious said:


>


----------



## casey

looks awesome Steve. I know how much work that is and I dont envy you. Ive done a few sets of wheels, a header, and a few other things. I would get a good aluminum sealant or even clear them once youre done so you dont have the pleasure of re polishing down the road.


----------



## bertholomey

I find it pretty cool that many have modified these amps to their own preference. I haven't seen pics of polished ones before, so I'm really looking forward to seeing the final product - especially in the car with the lights, etc. 

I'm kind of feeling that I wish I had gone this route.....wouldn't have had my amp sitting in the paint shop for over a month  Something to be said about putting in a lot of elbow grease and doing it yourself versus dropping it off and picking it up. Great job Steve!


----------



## casey

bertholomey said:


> I'm kind of feeling that I wish I had gone this route.....*wouldn't have had my amp sitting in the paint shop for over a month*


Mark Worrell does paint work on amps?  OOOOFF Im going to get it for that.

But I agree with you on customizing these amps. The covers make it convenient, they arent acting as a heat sink, and they look better customize than the stock finish IMO.

I think its going to look killer under those LED


----------



## claydo

Oof, the capn putting in some elbow grease! While I'm sure the forearm fatigue sucks, I have to agree with Jason and Casey in thinking this is gonna be SICK under lights!


----------



## bertholomey

casey said:


> Mark Worrell does paint work on amps?  OOOOFF Im going to get it for that.


Ouch......slamming Mark on Steve's build thread.......Ban! 

Especially coming from someone who may need further assistance from #The Doctor.......


----------



## captainobvious

Hahaha!

Thanks guys. Yeah, I don't think I've seen any polished/chromed Mosconi AS amps yet either so maybe that will be a first. The carbon vinyl wrap looked okay as well, but they were totally lost in the light and dark grey carpet material that my trunk setup is finished in. With the new lighting setup and some highly polished AS amps, I think it will look really slick.
Doing this polishing process is not really as bad as I had expected. It's a little time consuming, but not overly difficult. And rewarding as well to see it progress with each step.

Jay, I'd love to see some A class amps done up like this too 


Casey- Any recommendations for an aluminum sealer? Clear coating is not very likely so that would be the preferred method.


----------



## casey

bertholomey said:


> Ouch......slamming Mark on Steve's build thread.......Ban!
> 
> Especially coming from someone who may need further assistance from #The Doctor.......


Ah yes the #doctor may be assisting me yet again. He knows Im busting his chops


----------



## Shane

captainobvious said:


> Hahaha!
> 
> Casey- Any recommendations for an aluminum sealer? Clear coating is not very likely so that would be the preferred method.


I have used this stuff in the past with awesome results.

Wizards Products

Its the Wizards Power Seal product. I had an aluminum Harley engine block (aluminum) polished like a mirror and I used the Power Seal and after two years in a very harsh environment (I live at the beach in LA), there wasn't one trace of any oxidization. If you are looking for something, this is it...


----------



## casey

That stuff sounds good that Shane mentioned, another option is wolfgang(high end detailing products)

Wolfgang MetallWerk™ Concours Metal Sealant, aluminum sealant, metal protectant, chrome sealant

With the amps being in a trunk out of the elements, you arent going to have to do hardly any upkeep at all, Id bet you could put some of this stuff on once a year and be just fine. Itll just make sure you arent doing work twice. I had some BBS LM on my TSX that had a polished lip. The snow/salt from a couple years ago really took their toll and I was kicking myself for not doing a sealant.


----------



## strakele

Did I miss the reason for the amp switch?


----------



## captainobvious

strakele said:


> Did I miss the reason for the amp switch?


A reason is never required when moving to Mosconi AS 

I had an opportunity to get a pair at a very reasonable price and have always wanted to give them a shot. I like the top mount controls which makes setup and tuning much easier, especially in a false floor type install where end mount controls are a real pain. They are uber flexible with impedance loads as well which is also a bonus.

I had a small issue with a Leviathan amp that is being looked at by Steve Mantz currently, so I wanted to ensure I had something working and tuned up for finals. I could have run off of one Leviathan and one Minotaur (did it at the last IASCA show with good success), but figured I have them here and may as well have at it while I can


----------



## Black Rain

I think this look is better than the Carbon. What will you placing in the middle where your 3rd amp was?


----------



## captainobvious

Black Rain said:


> I think this look is better than the Carbon. What will you placing in the middle where your 3rd amp was?



The new processor 


Oh and I hit the case with a cutting compound/polish to see where it's at. This is after just the 600grit wet sanding step.








.


----------



## Coppertone

Looks good Steve.


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks Ben!

The additional wet-sanding with higher grits will really put the stamp on these.


----------



## Notloudenuf

Most people (i.e. me) would stop there. Steve won't let it just be ok, he's gonna make it amazing. Keep up the great work.


----------



## captainobvious

Notloudenuf said:


> Most people (i.e. me) would stop there. Steve won't let it just be ok, he's gonna make it amazing. Keep up the great work.


Thanks Bro, I appreciate that. I'll never be on a level like the Mark Worell's, Joey's and JT's out there but I at least try to make the extra effort to do it right so it's not *totally *ghetto


----------



## captainobvious

A small update- I got my sandpaper and supplies in to continue on with the amp polishing efforts. Had some time to work on one of the cases yesterday a bit. These pictures show the difference between the 800 grit and the 1000 grit wet-sanding stages. (Neither piece is buffed)



Up close to show the difference in the depth of the scratches each leaves on the piece:









When polishing, each next finer level of sanding is done to remove the scratches from the previous step. As you get higher in grit level (like 1000+), they become micro fine scratches and eventually they will be easily buffed out.







Really noticeable here:






And one with the flash:


----------



## Coppertone

My gosh Steve, you really will need to wear your sunglasses after doing this lol.


----------



## Black Rain

Thats some serious attention to detail


----------



## captainobvious

Coppertone said:


> My gosh Steve, you really will need to wear your sunglasses after doing this lol.


Yeah, I'm thinking the LEDs are going to be pretty bright when reflecting off of these things :laugh:



Black Rain said:


> Thats some serious attention to detail


Thanks Juan!


----------



## captainobvious

A sneak peek...


Foreground




And the background


----------



## Bluenote

Immaculate! How how many hours are you into this polishing job? I truly applaud your efforts...


----------



## captainobvious

Bluenote said:


> Immaculate! How how many hours are you into this polishing job? I truly applaud your efforts...


Thanks!

I'd say probably 12-15 hours on each case. That's what you get when you hand sand/polish though, it's very time consuming. I could have also just dropped them off at the local chrome shop and had them polished by the pro's for $100-150 and it would take them probably 2 hours 
There's something to be said though for learning something new and doing it with your own two hands.


Recap- BEFORE:





AFTER:






.


----------



## bonesmcgraw

Those are absolutely beautiful and look even better under the glow of the led's


----------



## casey




----------



## strakele

Looks awesome Steve - great job. I'd love to see your car in person again, and actually hear it this time!


----------



## Bluenote

12-15 hours isn't bad at all, especially when your seeing results like this! Looking forward to the finished product  On a side note I wonder if replicating the brushed anodized finish that's on the Zero's is just as much work ( for an AS / Zero combo ) ?


----------



## bertholomey

Absolutely stunning! I knew you would come up with something that would provoke shock and awe! Will be a show stopper anywhere you go 

You are right about the pride as well......sometimes it feels a bit weird when someone compliments me on the car.....I bought a bunch of stuff and someone installed it......but doing something totally unique with the amps, and doing it all yourself is a serious achievement. Well Done! Looking forward to seeing it soon in person


----------



## bertholomey

casey said:


>


Love that Casey!


----------



## captainobvious

Bluenote said:


> 12-15 hours isn't bad at all, especially when your seeing results like this! Looking forward to the finished product  On a side note I wonder if replicating the brushed anodized finish that's on the Zero's is just as much work ( for an AS / Zero combo ) ?


It can certainly be done, it's just tricky. You'd also not have to go nearly as high in grit as I did here which is great.


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> Absolutely stunning! I knew you would come up with something that would provoke shock and awe! Will be a show stopper anywhere you go
> 
> You are right about the pride as well......sometimes it feels a bit weird when someone compliments me on the car.....I bought a bunch of stuff and someone installed it......but doing something totally unique with the amps, and doing it all yourself is a serious achievement. Well Done! Looking forward to seeing it soon in person



Thank you, my friend! I really enjoy just learning some new things as I work through the build as well.


----------



## captainobvious

casey said:


>



:laugh::laugh:




strakele said:


> Looks awesome Steve - great job. I'd love to see your car in person again, and actually hear it this time!


Thanks Gray! It will definitely be playing and ready to demo next time


----------



## casey

I always get a kick out of that .gif 

But really, looks awesome Steve. Interested to to see if it makes any difference sonically to you over the old setup. Neither is lacking power, thats for sure!


----------



## captainobvious

casey said:


> I always get a kick out of that .gif
> 
> But really, looks awesome Steve. Interested to to see if it makes any difference sonically to you over the old setup. Neither is lacking power, thats for sure!


One thing I'll say about these amps...They have a very low noise floor, and plenty of power. Well, that's actually 2 things, but ok. Oh and they look really slick too. So yeah, 3 things. 

On my test bench setup and compared to one of the Diamond D7 amps it was noticeable the lower noise floor. Then again, we're talking about a 200wpc amp vs a 50wpc amp. I'll test it against the D7152 and the Zed Leviathan for a better comparison.

I have some really nice changes/upgrades going on with the system overall. Once a few things arrive from my DOCTOR, I'll have some good updates to share...or maybe I'll pull a Bertholomey or Papasin and keep you guessing...  :laugh:


----------



## Coppertone

I like the guessing part lol.


----------



## bertholomey

captainobvious said:


> I have some really nice changes/upgrades going on with the system overall. Once a few things arrive from my DOCTOR, I'll have some good updates to share...or maybe I'll pull a Bertholomey or Papasin and keep you guessing...  :laugh:


Hey.....I resemble that remark.......This will no longer be a 'Full Disclosure Thread'.......oh wait, that is Erin's thread


----------



## Notloudenuf

captainobvious said:


> One thing I'll say about these amps...They have a very low noise floor, and plenty of power. Well, that's actually 2 things, but ok. Oh and they look really slick too. So yeah, 3 things.
> 
> On my test bench setup and compared to one of the Diamond D7 amps it was noticeable the lower noise floor. Then again, we're talking about a 200wpc amp vs a 50wpc amp. I'll test it against the D7152 and the Zed Leviathan for a better comparison.
> 
> I have some really nice changes/upgrades going on with the system overall. Once a few things arrive from my DOCTOR, I'll have some good updates to share...or maybe I'll pull a Bertholomey or Papasin and keep you guessing...  :laugh:


Having never heard the D7 amps I am still surprised that there is a noticeably higher noise floor in them compared to the Mosconi. Learn something new everyday.

No guessing games. o:


----------



## papasin

captainobvious said:


> One thing I'll say about these amps...They have a very low noise floor, and plenty of power.


Of the amps I've had a chance to use, I agree with respect to the very low noise floor of Mosconis. On my A-class, with the button engaged that caused Mark's O-scope to go ouch and even with the Zero3's gain pretty high, there is no hint of noise. Lots of clean power...I've been very impressed with them.



captainobvious said:


> I'll have some good updates to share...or maybe I'll pull a Bertholomey or Papasin and keep you guessing...  :laugh:





Coppertone said:


> I like the guessing part lol.





bertholomey said:


> Hey.....I resemble that remark.......


Hmmmm, wonder what it could be...but I'm with Coppertone and bertholomey, guessing games are fun, but I do resemble that remark.


----------



## captainobvious

Notloudenuf said:


> Having never heard the D7 amps I am still surprised that there is a noticeably higher noise floor in them compared to the Mosconi. Learn something new everyday.
> 
> No guessing games. o:


Well to be fair, they are used amps and certainly a bit older than the Mosconi's. So I can't be 100% sure that they don't need a little refresher either.


----------



## captainobvious

Non audio related, but I'm horribly lazy about cleaning my car at times. I decided to do a basic underhood cleaning. Here are some before and after shots:













I know...I know- disgraceful!


----------



## captainobvious

I don't use a hose or pressure washer. I basic bucket with warm water, 2 different scrub brushes, a foaming spray and a diluted bottle of citrus cleaner as well as one of plain warm water. Spot spray areas with warm water to soak, spray on the diluted citrus power cleaner, let sit for a couple minutes and then use the scrub brushes. After scrubbing up spray with warm water to rinse and then spray foaming cleaner. Scrub again and then spray rinse, and use old rags to wipe everything down. 
I also follow up with a vinyl/plastic shine and then wipe down. Looks much better now.


----------



## JayinMI

Any Progress on the tablet motorization?

I used to clean my engine by (leaving it running) and spraying it with foamy soap at the DIY car wash, then rinsing it off. Shut off, wipe down the horizontal areas with a rag and spray the whole thing with tire foam. Works great, looks great...then attracts dirt like glue! lol I don't do that anymore. 

Jay


----------



## diy.phil

^^ ooooooh look at that clean engine compartment!!!


----------



## kelrog

Your after pictures are a bit dark  But looks clean.

I found that simple green works wonders under the hood btw.


----------



## casey

looks good Steve. Im usually pretty good about cleaning mine and let it go over a month recently without a wash. Was driving me nuts.

clean interior = better sq


----------



## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> Any Progress on the tablet motorization?
> 
> I used to clean my engine by (leaving it running) and spraying it with foamy soap at the DIY car wash, then rinsing it off. Shut off, wipe down the horizontal areas with a rag and spray the whole thing with tire foam. Works great, looks great...then attracts dirt like glue! lol I don't do that anymore.
> 
> Jay



Jay thanks for checking back in. No new progress there as of yet. I'm going down to see Mark before finals and we are going to try to nail it down then. I sent my supplies down to him to play around with ahead of time.  


Yeah, the cleaners and shining sprays really need to be oil free products, otherwise they will attract dirt and dust and you're right back where you started. I'm also leary about using the pressure washers because if you get any water in some of these sensitive areas, it's going to ruin your day


----------



## captainobvious

kelrog said:


> Your after pictures are a bit dark  But looks clean.
> 
> I found that simple green works wonders under the hood btw.



Yeah, I started in late afternoon and it was closer to dusk when I wrapped up so it's a little darker.


Simple Green works great as well, although I'd dilute it in a spray bottle.


----------



## casey

simple green is great, def dilute, it can be tough on paint. For a dressing, this is the best Ive ever used. I use it on the bay plastic and rubber, tires, and interior dash/door panels.

It doesnt get slimy like petroleum based products and will get a nice satin shine that doesnt look like you clearcoated your plastics lol.

sorry to go OT just like sharing stuff that works 

Chemical Guys TVD_109_16 - Silk Shine Sprayable Dressing (16 oz)


----------



## sirbOOm

I clean my engine bay once or twice a month... yet my garage like... never. Ug.


----------



## captainobvious

casey said:


> simple green is great, def dilute, it can be tough on paint. For a dressing, this is the best Ive ever used. I use it on the bay plastic and rubber, tires, and interior dash/door panels.
> 
> It doesnt get slimy like petroleum based products and will get a nice satin shine that doesnt look like you clearcoated your plastics lol.
> 
> sorry to go OT just like sharing stuff that works
> 
> Chemical Guys TVD_109_16 - Silk Shine Sprayable Dressing (16 oz)



And it's appreciated, thanks! Yeah Chemical Guys stuff seems to be well regarded, although I've never used their products before.

I like the Wizards line of products myself.

Wizards Products

I just ordered a bunch of stuff from them including their Mist & Shine, polish, vinyl/plastic cleaner, wash soap, etc. They make a nice product too.


----------



## JayinMI

captainobvious said:


> Jay thanks for checking back in. No new progress there as of yet. I'm going down to see Mark before finals and we are going to try to nail it down then. I sent my supplies down to him to play around with ahead of time.
> 
> 
> Yeah, the cleaners and shining sprays really need to be oil free products, otherwise they will attract dirt and dust and you're right back where you started. I'm also leary about using the pressure washers because if you get any water in some of these sensitive areas, it's going to ruin your day


Are you competing at Finals? I'm trying to figure out if I can get down there. It's a 9hr drive and I know some of the West Coast people will be there, and 9hrs is a much shorter trip than 30hrs+. lol I'd like to see some of the DIYMA people in person.

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> Are you competing at Finals? I'm trying to figure out if I can get down there. It's a 9hr drive and I know some of the West Coast people will be there, and 9hrs is a much shorter trip than 30hrs+. lol I'd like to see some of the DIYMA people in person.
> 
> Jay



Yep, in IASCA. 

Make the trip. I'm sure you'll be glad you did. I've got quite a long drive myself as well and have a few stops along the way.


----------



## casey

no winking. that means mark will be busy


----------



## crea_78

Steve, I heard from Mark you will be in the CLT area Wed/Thursday before finals. I would love to hear your system and vise versa. I have that Thursday off so I can be at Audiomasters in the morning.


----------



## captainobvious

crea_78 said:


> Steve, I heard from Mark you will be in the CLT area Wed/Thursday before finals. I would love to hear your system and vise versa. I have that Thursday off so I can be at Audiomasters in the morning.



Hmm, not sure if it will be ready for demos yet as we'll be doing some work right before finals, but if it is, you're welcome to take a listen.


----------



## captainobvious

Wasn't very satisfied with the finish of the polishing job.


I stopped at a metal polishing shop to see what else could be done to make it better and their tech told me I wouldn't get it any better than where it's at due to it being a large flat panel. He said I'd have some visible scratches from whatever surface was being used to polish it.

Well, I got it looking much better now. I used the DA polisher with an orange hexlogic pad (all I had for cutting) along with some mothers aluminum polish. Then followed up with a white pad and some M205 just to take the haze away from the previous step. Much, much better now. Not perfect, but definitely a big improvement.

It was very reflective, but had very visible scratches, more or less depending on the light and angle.








To show progress-
Before:




After:






Before:




After:





l



.


----------



## casey

good work. Shops that do the same work you do on you own are going to tell you what you need to hear to let them get paid to finish it. Glad you stuck to your guns and did another step of final polishing.


----------



## bertholomey

Absolutely Stunning!


----------



## GLN305

I have done quite a bit of polishing of aluminum and what worked great for me is Meguiar's PlasticX. It is a diminishing abrasive polish, so it really leaves a nice finish on aluminum even though it's made for plastic. I used a foam applicator pad as well as a foam buffer pad for application.


----------



## bertholomey

I didn't notice the red lettering until I opened DIYMA on the Mac - that looks fantastic!


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> I didn't notice the red lettering until I opened DIYMA on the Mac - that looks fantastic!



Why thank you, sir!

Believe it or not, I did it using colored nail polish and clear nail polish on top. Came out pretty good actually.


----------



## bertholomey

Vicki loves that - said You Are The Man!


----------



## GLN305

captainobvious said:


> Why thank you, sir!
> 
> Believe it or not, I did it using colored nail polish and clear nail polish on top. Came out pretty good actually.


It does look rather nice!


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> Vicki loves that - said You Are The Man!



If she loves that she should see my toes 


:laugh:


----------



## crea_78

It was nice meeting you today at Audiomasters Steve. Even though there was still alot to do when I got to the shop, I know you and Mark will finish it in time tonight. The Mosconi amps are gorgeous and truly looks like a mirrored finish.

Good luck at finals and hope you place in the top 3


----------



## Coppertone

Wow, the deadline is tonight ? I wish you the best on this Steve.


----------



## crea_78

Steve has to go to Audio Salon (Scott Buwalda's shop) to do the final tune tomorrow.


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks fellas. Lots of driving...


----------



## papasin

Trade ya


----------



## captainobvious

papasin said:


> Trade ya



:laugh:

Ok, I'll quit complaining...


----------



## bertholomey

Wow! What an amazing sounding car! I've heard this car in the various stages, and it is absolutely stunning! Your recent work on the installation and the tune are incredibly impressive! I'm hoping to get more demo time with additional material in November.........this is a car that needs to be heard by as many people as possible!


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks Jason, its nice to finally be able to enjoy the fruits of all the labor that went into the vehicle. Between Mark Worrell and myself, theres a lot of time and attention invested and I couldnt be happier with all he's done on this vehicle. Everything he touches on this car is made improved by an order of magnitude. 

I also owe a big thanks to Scott Buwalda for taking time out of his busy schedule Friday to put a great competition tune on the system- it's first since being completed just the night before with Mark. It definitely sounded great for the show and got a lot of positive feedback.
My favorite point of a build is tuning as well so i cant wait to get my hands dirty and tweak away on my own to learn the H800 and try to wrangle every ounce of performance out of her.

Jason- thanks for letting me " shack up" with you for finals weekend. I was impressed as always by the BRZ, but even moreso by your graciousness. Im lucky to be blessed with friends like you and Mark. Get that BRZ in the lanes this season as i think youll make some serious noise for finals 2015 

Ill have some updates and pics to show off here a little later so stay tuned...


----------



## Coppertone

Congrats Steve as it sounds like all went well. That H800 sounds like it will be the piece that takes things to the next level. We will be meeting soon and then I can also hear what others have been speaking highly of.


----------



## papasin

Steve, good to finally meet you. I wish I had a chance to listen to your car, but with everything going on, I was probably only able to hear 2 or 3 and regret yours was not one of them. Gives me incentive to come to one of Jason's meets. 

Look forward to the next time.


----------



## captainobvious

Coppertone said:


> Congrats Steve as it sounds like all went well. That H800 sounds like it will be the piece that takes things to the next level. We will be meeting soon and then I can also hear what others have been speaking highly of.


Thanks Ben. It will be nice to finally be able to give you a demo lol.



papasin said:


> Steve, good to finally meet you. I wish I had a chance to listen to your car, but with everything going on, I was probably only able to hear 2 or 3 and regret yours was not one of them. Gives me incentive to come to one of Jason's meets.
> 
> Look forward to the next time.


Regrettably, i also didnt get to hear the Smart either, so were even 
It was great to meet you, Linda and the kids and spend a little time together. Hopefully the Mazda will be even better at that point after i get plenty of time to listen, tune and tweak.


----------



## ErinH

Finally got to listen to this car after missing the opportunity in April.

It sounds really, really good. You've done a great job on the tune and the install, man. I look forward to hearing it again.


----------



## BlackHHR

What up bro?


----------



## casey

Cant wait to see pics of the changes and install at this point.

Congrats on getting it in the right direction in such a time crunch Steve. I am anxious to hear it as well


----------



## claydo

This car is proper sweet, let me tells ya.....hope you can make it down in a few weeks.......despite yer killer schedule.....I'm afraid I'm gonna have to take a closer look at that sub in the dash.......still not so sure all that bass is coming from there......lmao!


----------



## ErinH

claydo said:


> This car is proper sweet, let me tells ya.....hope you can make it down in a few weeks.......despite yer killer schedule.....I'm afraid I'm gonna have to take a closer look at that* sub in the dash*.......still not so sure all that bass is coming from there......lmao!


Steve, you have a sub in the dash? For some reason I thought you had it in the trunk?


----------



## Coppertone

From my understanding, his playing subwoofer is mounted behind his glovebox. Hopefully when we meet up, I can actually see the goodness for myself.


----------



## claydo

But you can't see it at all! It's the least intrusive front sub you'll never see.......


----------



## captainobvious

ErinH said:


> Steve, you have a sub in the dash? For some reason I thought you had it in the trunk?


You mean because it looked like this in Nashville? 






Coppertone said:


> From my understanding, his playing subwoofer is mounted behind his glovebox. Hopefully when we meet up, I can actually see the goodness for myself.



You would be correct, sir!

Mark was able to somehow squeeze a 12" subwoofer INSIDE the dash without sacrificing ANY footwell space. The sub is hidden completely from view and really adds that extra kick of up-front bass. I'll post up some pics and such a little later, but it's badass for sure.


----------



## sirbOOm

I hope to have Mark make me a center console with at least one if not two SI 12"s... I just don't have three billion dollars right now. Hahah. Guys making a name for himself making front side sub boxes huh


----------



## captainobvious

sirbOOm said:


> I hope to have Mark make me a center console with at least one if not two SI 12"s... I just don't have three billion dollars right now. Hahah. Guys making a name for himself making front side sub boxes huh


Hah, Marks already a legend  He's just living up to it with each build he does.

BTW- a center console with one (or two) mkIV's would be sa-weeeet!


----------



## JayinMI

This was one of my favorite cars I got to hear this weekend. I don't know how much of it was the tune and how much was the dome mids, but it sounded amazing. I'm glad I got a chance to hear it. 

I had a great time this past weekend, and if possible, I'll be back next year.

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> This was one of my favorite cars I got to hear this weekend. I don't know how much of it was the tune and how much was the dome mids, but it sounded amazing. I'm glad I got a chance to hear it.
> 
> I had a great time this past weekend, and if possible, I'll be back next year.
> 
> Jay


Thanks Jay, I really appreciate that! I'm glad you were able to make it down there and especially that you got a chance to get some seat time in the Mazda. It was nice to finally meet you bud !


-Steve


----------



## captainobvious

So now that things have finally settled down a little bit, I have some time to get some pics up of the awesome work Mark Worrell did on the subwoofer enclosure for the car. I wanted to get excellent bass up front to eliminate any localization of a sub to the rear as is typical. With my kicks already housing 8" midbasses, this was going to be a huge challenge, but I knew Mark was up to the task. After popping some panels and taking a look at the available space he was confident he could make it happen. 
The sub to be installed was the Stereo Integrity BM mkIV and the location was IN the dash. That's right, a 12" sub in the dash. If anyone could do it, Mark could...right?

Mark came up with an excellent plan for the construction of the sub enclosure, including building an intricate mold, using 12+ layers of ounce and a half mat for the fiberglassing and including steel brackets for 3 separate mounting locations to the chassis metal. This sub enclosure is extremely rigid and is mounted incredibly solid. In addition, he made his own terminal posts with brass hardware, nylock nuts and ring terminals. The subwoofer is fed signal through a pair of 8awg speaker wires.


Without further ado, here are a few pics:

Building a mold:






Test fitting in the location:





Laying up some 'glass:




Mold popped












Terminals




BM mkIV





and the view from behind the glove box door...


----------



## crea_78

Wow, excellent work once again!!


----------



## Weightless

Stunning work. 

Its great that your going to sbow it off down here in Frederick this weekend at the meet.


----------



## sirbOOm

And the dash doesn't rattle?! I mean... wow.


----------



## MiloX

Truly fantastic work.


----------



## Golden Ear

Very impressive! I would love to hear it


----------



## casey

Lol wow. I knew I liked Mark for some reason. That's impressive


----------



## teldzc1

Amazing! How does it sound?


----------



## captainobvious

sirbOOm said:


> And the dash doesn't rattle?! I mean... wow.


Nope. Mark and I were both surprised that spot treatments weren't needed. We attributed it to the extremely solid steel mounting at 3 separate points.


----------



## captainobvious

teldzc1 said:


> Amazing! How does it sound?


Like a full size 12" sub in an enclosure more than a cube. And then cleaner too. 

This one is in the recommended 0.5 cubic ft airspace and plays surprisingly deep. Deeper and cleaner than the JL 13TW5 I have in the trunk in a box half the size. Remarkable.


----------



## tjswarbrick

Wow. That is awesome. Would love to hear it one day.


----------



## JayinMI

So, are both subs still used? Can you switch back and forth or ???

Jay


----------



## Coppertone

I had the chance to listen and be bathed in this system yesterday. All I can say without being too in awe is WOW. This system really takes it yo the next level followed by the fact that the gentleman who owns it is a great guy. If I were to adopt a son, he would be on my short list...


----------



## bertholomey

Coppertone said:


> I had the chance to listen and be bathed in this system yesterday. All I can say without being too in awe is WOW. This system really takes it yo the next level followed by the fact that the gentleman who owns it is a great guy. If I were to adopt a son, he would be on my short list...


I agree on ALL points!


----------



## bbfoto

Steve & Mark, that is schweeeet! Can't believe you guys were able to massage even a 12" shallow sub in there! Do you still have all of your HVAC system installed and working? Otherwise, it looks like the only thing lost was the small glove box storage. Awesome!


----------



## Notloudenuf

That's insane! I love it!
The #Doctor pulls off another upset.


----------



## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> So, are both subs still used? Can you switch back and forth or ???
> 
> Jay


Just the BM Jay. The JL is still installed in the back, but is not powered or used currently


----------



## captainobvious

Coppertone said:


> I had the chance to listen and be bathed in this system yesterday. All I can say without being too in awe is WOW. This system really takes it yo the next level followed by the fact that the gentleman who owns it is a great guy. If I were to adopt a son, he would be on my short list...


Thanks Ben (is it too soon for Dad?)


----------



## captainobvious

bbfoto said:


> Steve & Mark, that is schweeeet! Can't believe you guys were able to massage even a 12" shallow sub in there! Do you still have all of your HVAC system installed and working? Otherwise, it looks like the only thing lost was the small glove box storage. Awesome!


Yessir, the HVAC is completely functional. We had to account for clearance of the HVAC circulation vent when planning the install. By "we" I mean Mark and me kicking back enjoying the show as usual...



There were some slight modifications to be made for the fitment (move a piece here and there, trim a bit to fit, etc) and Mark made one heck of an enclosure here. The mounting is so solid, it's ludicrous.


----------



## rton20s

Wow. Pretty impressive. Does it rattle the crap out of the dash?


----------



## Coppertone

Upon being in the car I can say from my perspective that it does not. You actually can't tell where the bass is, all that you know is prolonged use requires oxygen lol. That's a good thing, as the system simply takes your breath away. By the waySteve, it's never too soon to call me dad.


----------



## captainobvious

rton20s said:


> Wow. Pretty impressive. Does it rattle the crap out of the dash?



Not at all


----------



## claydo

I can attest to the silence of the dash. Also to the lack of any cues as to where the damn sub is......lol. The sub just melds into the front stage......I've heard a couple of these up front, and either the location, or the butter smooth response of the driver makes them blend effortlessly........I'm actually looking forward to hearing one of these in the rear of a car, just to see how much of the whole blending thing is purely sub response, or more location and tuning! Hope to spend a little more time in this thing one day steve, as I really enjoyed my demo at finals.......


----------



## OSN

Dude....you know that dash sub is right up my alley, I call dibs if you change your layout again. :laugh:


----------



## captainobvious

claydo said:


> I can attest to the silence of the dash. Also to the lack of any cues as to where the damn sub is......lol. The sub just melds into the front stage......I've heard a couple of these up front, and either the location, or the butter smooth response of the driver makes them blend effortlessly........I'm actually looking forward to hearing one of these in the rear of a car, just to see how much of the whole blending thing is purely sub response, or more location and tuning! Hope to spend a little more time in this thing one day steve, as I really enjoyed my demo at finals.......


Thanks for the kind words Clay. I think this vehicle will continue to progress over the course of this season as well. Speaking of demo's, your SS with the SS front end is already sounding excellent. It's a big improvement over the previous build which was impressive in its own right!


----------



## captainobvious

OSN said:


> Dude....you know that dash sub is right up my alley, I call dibs if you change your layout again. :laugh:


Hah! Good luck getting it out of the car :laugh:


----------



## casey

Really want to get a demo in this beast. Itll have to wait till the spring meet though 

Did you end up with a shallow slope like Nick recommends or something steep?


----------



## captainobvious

casey said:


> Really want to get a demo in this beast. Itll have to wait till the spring meet though
> 
> Did you end up with a shallow slope like Nick recommends or something steep?


The tune on the car right now is Scott B's tune from finals. That has the sub with a very steep slope. It blends very well either way, because it is a very clean driver.


----------



## casey

definitely. I had mine pretty steep too with no problems. Im jealous that you got one up front, and killer that you got it in the dash


----------



## Electrodynamic

captainobvious said:


> So now that things have finally settled down a little bit, I have some time to get some pics up of the awesome work Mark Worrell did on the subwoofer enclosure for the car. I wanted to get excellent bass up front to eliminate any localization of a sub to the rear as is typical. With my kicks already housing 8" midbasses, this was going to be a huge challenge, but I knew Mark was up to the task. After popping some panels and taking a look at the available space he was confident he could make it happen.
> The sub to be installed was the Stereo Integrity BM mkIV and the location was IN the dash. That's right, a 12" sub in the dash. If anyone could do it, Mark could...right?
> 
> Mark came up with an excellent plan for the construction of the sub enclosure, including building an intricate mold, using 12+ layers of ounce and a half mat for the fiberglassing and including steel brackets for 3 separate mounting locations to the chassis metal. This sub enclosure is extremely rigid and is mounted incredibly solid. In addition, he made his own terminal posts with brass hardware, nylock nuts and ring terminals. The subwoofer is fed signal through a pair of 8awg speaker wires.
> 
> 
> Without further ado, here are a few pics:
> 
> Building a mold:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Test fitting in the location:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Laying up some 'glass:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mold popped
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terminals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BM mkIV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and the view from behind the glove box door...


Wow, just wow. Awesome install!


----------



## REGULARCAB

I keep skipping over your build log because the pics just don't fly with the hospital computers filter. That is one sexy dash sub box.... I'm all over it!!!


----------



## thehatedguy

Mark is a total newb when it comes to working with fiberglass


----------



## captainobvious

Electrodynamic said:


> Wow, just wow. Awesome install!



Thanks Nick! I'm definitely loving it.


----------



## WestCo

JayinMI said:


> Interested in those RCA ends. What brand are they and where did you get them? Also, how long are they? They looks very nice!
> 
> Jay


Those were made by SounDrive.


----------



## reaper7534

This thread is going to make me puke.



From its sheer awesomeness. The quality of work is unreal.

Thread is helping me immersively since I'm in the process of installing a system in my 2011 3, sadly not a Speed. I'm collecting components, now at least I know how to rip the car apart.

Thanks !!


----------



## captainobvious

reaper7534 said:


> This thread is going to make me puke.
> 
> 
> 
> From its sheer awesomeness. The quality of work is unreal.
> 
> Thread is helping me immersively since I'm in the process of installing a system in my 2011 3, sadly not a Speed. I'm collecting components, now at least I know how to rip the car apart.
> 
> Thanks !!


Glad it's of use to you. The 3's are great little cars (Speed3 or regular). If you have any questions along the way, feel free to ask here or shoot me a pm.


-Steve


----------



## captainobvious

BlackHHR said:


> What up bro?



Sorry, must have missed this post amidst all of the action!

It was great to finally meet you and hang out with you and the Hybrid fellas in Nashville. Fun times!
I'm anxious to get a chance to hear the HHR again after all of the wonderful new additions/updates. That's going to take it to the next level for sure.


-Steve


----------



## captainobvious

So I realized I never posted up anything about the scores from finals 2014. I know a lot of people follow the build and I figured it would be good to show how the car performed.
I competed in IASCA INAC world finals, and in the INAC triple points event. The triple points event is run at the same show and is basically the kickoff to the 2015 season with points earned for 2015. Its judged separately and by different judges.

Attached are my 2 scorecards. The first one (scored 231 by Travis) is from the world finals event. The second (scored 239 by Ben) is from the 3x portion of the event.


I got dinged for noise due to a relay click in the rear (I have/had one installed for the remote signaling to power the amps and LEDs) so I'll address that soon. I also got dinged a point by one judge for ergonomics, but I'm not entirely sure why. I'm thinking it's just an interpretation of the rule thing.
Tonality scores in midbass and subbass were a little lower than I hoped for, but I think those are easy fixes with a little tuning. It was a tad bit hot in one area and could use a little more sub compression from the low stuff in the throne room track. The midrange and high frequencies are very good, but overall I felt they were just a tad too forward, despite that not being noted by the judges. Listening position is also a concern as the front of the stage starts a little closer than I'd like. I'll have to play around with tuning for this one. I think and adjustment to the crossover setting and tuning will help to get a little more depth as well as width, and also help with the concerns for linearity at high volume. (Some of this was due to a low crossover point on the midrange and on the midbass- both easily corrected).

Overall though, these are nitpicks and we're talking about a few small tweaks. The car is sounding quite good (the best Ive been fortunate to have in one of my vehicles) and I'm excited to see what 2015 brings.


----------



## SPAZ

Excellent work from start to finish! Is the glove box on the 2013 mazda 3 similar to the older model?


----------



## captainobvious

Yep. They both have a deep glove box.


----------



## captainobvious

Some exciting changes coming to this build log. 

Well, exciting for me at least. The trunk is going to be completely redone. Some have known this was coming for a little while, but the gears have started turning toward it now. I LOVE the BM mkIV I have in the dash. It provides exactly the bass response I'm looking for- uber clean and extremely low frequency output ability. The only thing lacking for my tastes is a little output. I'm quite sure I'm not going to get _*better*_ output with another sub in my application, but I _can _get *more *output.

My plan is to remove the JL Audio 13TW5 that is currently housed in the trunk (and not connected or used because of the front sub) and to install in its place a pair of new SI BM mkIV's. This will add some reinforcement and give me that compression and output I'm looking for on the street.

One problem I had to figure out though was space. I want to keep a false floor install as I like the stealthy looks and retained utility of the hatch. This creates a bit of a problem with the large Mosconi amplifiers, especially when another one would need to be squeezed in there. To that end, I'll be moving to these bad boys:












I'm going with (2) HD900/5 amplifiers for the front 3-way, an HD750/1 on the front BM mkIV, and an HD1200/1 on the rear pair of BM mkIV's. This will take up less space, be more efficient on the electrical system and allow me to add the additional cone area desired.

That means this season will be a combination Team Hybrid Audio/JL Audio lovefest 

I owned and tested an HD amplifier before and I have supreme confidence that they will easily fill the shoes of the Mosconi's. They are hands down the best class D mobile amplifiers available and they come with customer service that is class-leading.

As for plans for the existing Mosconi AS amps, I have (2) of the polished AS200.4's, a regular AS200.4 and an AS300.2 that will all be available. I may end up using the pair of AS200.4's in the wife's car unless I decide to go with something a little smaller and cheaper. (Maybe some HDs or XDs for her)


----------



## ErinH

I have pretty much the same setup (sans the up front sub, so no 750/1) and have always been completely happy. I'm sure you will be, too.


----------



## Coppertone

I lubs me some HD amps.....


----------



## ImK'ed

Good choice with the JL HDs i miss my 900/5


----------



## Babs

Wow! Sounds like crazy impressive to that next level I'd say. Can't wait to see it.


----------



## tjswarbrick

Sounds awesome! Think you'll cross all subs the same, or use front for upper sub-bass and rears for lower sub-bass?


----------



## bertholomey

Maybe ignorant, but will you be able to place the JL's in the same spots that the Mosconi amps were, or will you be starting from scratch on the trunk build?


----------



## Black Rain

I would assume that he'd be redoing the entire back considering the HDs size. I think maybe subs near the lift gate and subs stacked towards the seats, maybe.


----------



## deeppinkdiver

I like the idea of 3 subs Steve.. Perhaps leave the front to low end duty crossed a fuzz lower and the 2 rear in their recommended .5 each enclosure with subsonic set around 30 handling massive impact.


----------



## captainobvious

ErinH said:


> I have pretty much the same setup (sans the up front sub, so no 750/1) and have always been completely happy. I'm sure you will be, too.


Thanks for chiming in Erin. I'm glad to hear they've been working out very well for you too. I'll miss the top mount controls for initial setup and tuning, but once they're done I don't have to worry about it.


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> Maybe ignorant, but will you be able to place the JL's in the same spots that the Mosconi amps were, or will you be starting from scratch on the trunk build?


Well, the problem isn't the size of the amps, but the space needed for a pair of 12" subs in the floor. I'm envisioning 2 amps on either side and two subs positioned in a vertical line in the center of the trunk. Unfortunately, this would require a total rebuild of the trunk.


----------



## Black Rain

I'm curious, why add the dual sybs in the rear of the hatchback if you already have all the upfront bass needed? Is it for the occasional extra thump?


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Thought he was happy with what he has so far but looking for more output. Plus he had scored a little low on bass in his runs in the lane and wanted to do better in 2015 on his score card.. That was my take on it anyhow


----------



## captainobvious

Yup, what Steve said. Add more output for fun on the street and have a little extra if needed for comps.


----------



## captainobvious

Planning out the new amp rack to house the new equipment....This is to scale.






Still have to design the cover piece to display them.




.


----------



## Coppertone

Great look you've got going there.


----------



## bertholomey

Fantastic looking set up - that is going to be amazing once you get it done!


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks fellas. The previous JL sub had been sunken lower than the height of the amplifiers. I'll need to raise the baffle board height up a few inches to accommodate the pair of BM mkIV's, but this should be a good fit for the stacked JL HD amps. I'll basically end up with a floor just about the same height as previously.


----------



## captainobvious

OK...the new layout with beauty panel. Amps moved to the bottom.

Thoughts? 







.


----------



## BlackHHR

Show off !! 
Looks great. See you soon


----------



## tjswarbrick

Looks great. Hi-tech.


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Looks good, bet it will look even better made of wood and filler..lol. Sweet design


----------



## Golden Ear

Looks sick


----------



## Coppertone

I say step it up a notch and make it out of all acrylic. I of course am bias and an pushing Steve to be the best that he can be.


----------



## JayinMI

Make it out of both, and router a 45 on all the edges.


----------



## captainobvious

BlackHHR said:


> Show off !!
> Looks great. See you soon





Thanks bud


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks fellas!




JayinMI said:


> Make it out of both, and router a 45 on all the edges.




Interestingly enough, this is the plan


----------



## JayinMI

Mark who? lol

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> Mark who? lol
> 
> Jay


:laugh:

Thanks Jay. I learned quite a bit from him in the couple of times he worked on my vehicle. Being able to see it up close made me gain a little more confidence to try my hand at some of this stuff. 

That said, if you (or anyone else) sees things that could be potential issues or might be done a better way, I always welcome that feedback  Improving the process and learning better ways to work are always big positives.


----------



## JayinMI

Looks like you have a handle on it. Just remember to make those inner radii big enough to wrap. That's the most common thing I see (and still ocassionally do.)

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> Looks like you have a handle on it. Just remember to make those inner radii big enough to wrap. That's the most common thing I see (and still ocassionally do.)
> 
> Jay



Yup, that's the plan as well. 1/2" flush at minimum. I also tried to avoid any tight corner angles on this one for that very reason too.


----------



## Coppertone

It's looking very good Steve.


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks Ben


----------



## captainobvious

Changing some things up, and finally getting the other JL HDs installed. For a while now, I've been using (2) HD900/5's to power the whole system with the mono amps on the shelf waiting for me to update the install.

Now, the proposed configuration:

HD900/5- bridged to left tweeter, bridged to left mid, sub channel on left midbass.

HD900/5- bridged to right tweeter, bridged to rightt mid, sub channel on rightt midbass.

HD750/1- To front sub

HD1200/1- To rear sub




I wanted some more low frequency output for competition and on the street. To that end, I'm adding a 15" sub to the trunk and still trying to retain a false floor layout.


Construction of the sub box and amp rack began with reusing the existing spare tire well fiberglassed enclosure and modifying it for the new driver.








I glue and screw and then line the inside seams with a thick bead of black silicone. Then follow that up with lining the inside with CLD.


The amps and dsp get mounted to a board via threaded inserts and bolts, with standoffs.









This assembly then drops down into the space next to the sub as seen in the first 2 pics. It is secured with threaded inserts and 1/4-20 bolts as well to keep everything locked together tightly.


----------



## kelrog

Looks good, and what I wanted to do way back when i got the car. lol. Just didn't have the coin for the other 9/5's. My BM MK3 has loved its 750/1, so I'm sure you'll love them as well.


----------



## Coppertone

Steve if you wanted a 15" sub you should have contacted me as I have one sitting in its crib in one of my rooms.


----------



## Lanson

Steve just wanted to say, sweet Jesus you change up your gear like some people change their shorts. J/k.

No really, I've been pouring over your thread page by page, line by line in great detail for months prior, as I consider this thread the best reference for this era of Mazdaspeed 3. 

My brother in-law recently got out of the Navy and had his 2013 MS3 shipped to me to build him "the ultimate audio build" at least by our meager, budgeted standards. The "ultimate" part comes from, for once, not having to rush to make a system fully built and ready to go in a weekend or thereabouts. Basically the car sits in my garage until it is done to my standards, and he'll get it when I'm done. 

Anyway, I found a little "trick" to the doors, and it allowed me to run some decently beefy wire through, without ever touching the Molex. Turns out that little rubber plug under the Molex connector can be popped out, and wire (protected, sheathed wire for the sharp edges inside) can be carefully pushed through the door sills to the inside of the car, EVEN on the driver's side. Sure there's some cussing involved but compared with the insanity of drilling through the Molex and the limits that places on a build, I was amazed how well going through the plug worked. Just thought I'd share that with you.

I followed your path through the plastic doohicky behind the glovebox for power (easiest ever), even with monster Radaflex 1/0 in techflex there's tons of room to spare. I pulled every panel in the trunk, pillars, and anything else that would lift to deaden and install radiant barrier and the car is super dead now inside, which is awesome. 

For gear we're using his Alpine MRX and MRV-F amps (3 of them) opting for TM65's in the doors and the group buy xbl tweets in the sail panels, and mids in the pillars are a maybe but I wanted to see how it faired in 2-way mode before breaking out "the glass". For the sub, we're going with the bad-ass Mag V3 reproduction Nick did, a seriously deep sub so we're likely going the semi-false floor route like you're doing now...maybe flush something in the left side where the jack goes if I get the balls to cut up that $150 panel. Anyway, thanks a bunch for the detailed build log, it has made a big difference to the way we've attacked this car and so far it has saved lots of heartache and time.


----------



## captainobvious

Coppertone said:


> Steve if you wanted a 15" sub you should have contacted me as I have one sitting in its crib in one of my rooms.



Hahaha Just too rich for my blood 

And I think the mounting depth on that sucker is too big for me too.


----------



## Coppertone

Now you know between us price is not a concern considering all that you've done for me. I think you should get creative and try and make it work. Trust me, you won't regret it....


----------



## captainobvious

fourthmeal said:


> Steve just wanted to say, sweet Jesus you change up your gear like some people change their shorts. J/k.
> 
> No really, I've been pouring over your thread page by page, line by line in great detail for months prior, as I consider this thread the best reference for this era of Mazdaspeed 3.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad the build log has been useful for you during the course of the build. 

Glad to hear about the door wiring trick in case I ever need to do it again. Lets hope not!

It sounds like you have a great plan for the system and a nice selection of drivers too. IF you end up deciding to go with a dedicated mid, I would HIGHLY recommend doing the Scanspeak 10f/8414G. It has excellent response and is easy to mount with its small mounting dimensions. I imagine it could almost be sunken _into _the pillars with very little aesthetic detraction.

Interestingly enough, there is almost no sound deadening in my mazda. The only place I put some was in the trunk spare tire well because that metal is very thin and resonant. Nothing elsewhere. I thought I'd need it but really haven't. Then again I dont have midbasses in the doors either which would have required it I'm sure.

Looking forward to seeing your progress!


----------



## captainobvious

Coppertone said:


> Now you know between us price is not a concern considering all that you've done for me. I think you should get creative and try and make it work. Trust me, you won't regret it....


Thanks bud, much appreciated.

I have some updates from yesterday that I didn't get pics for yet (was dark) so I'll try to get them up later today. Already got the sub installed


----------



## Babs

Lookin good Steve


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## captainobvious

Babs said:


> Lookin good Steve
> 
> 
> Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk



Thanks!



Here are a couple I had on my phone. I was building the cover panel which needs a vent area for the subwoofer to play through. I routed out a recess and trimmed perforated steel then set in place with CA glue and high strength adhesive.


----------



## Coppertone

Steve it's really great to see you with a house being able to work on both of your cars in leisure. I have a question though. Since you have no mids in your doors, what's in there now ?


----------



## captainobvious

Coppertone said:


> Steve it's really great to see you with a house being able to work on both of your cars in leisure. I have a question though. Since you have no mids in your doors, what's in there now ?



The factory Bose speakers are still in place in there 


My HybridAudio L8v2 midbasses are tucked into the kicks...


----------



## benny z

Hey! Nice kicks!


----------



## Coppertone

Just was wondering as when I had your car I knew about the kicks, just wasn't aware that you had never replaced the factory speakers in your doors.


----------



## captainobvious

Coppertone said:


> Just was wondering as when I had your car I knew about the kicks, just wasn't aware that you had never replaced the factory speakers in your doors.



Yup. After all of my headaches with door speakers in the past, I knew when I bought this car that kicks were the only option for me. The only time I took the door skins off was to run wiring up for the tweeters


----------



## benny z

Which class are you competing in at finals?


----------



## captainobvious

benny z said:


> Which class are you competing in at finals?


Iasca ProAm 
Meca ModEx


----------



## benny z

Sweet. I am hoping to make it there. Would love to see and hear the car if I happen to have the opportunity.


----------



## captainobvious

If you make it, you're welcome to a demo.


----------



## benny z

I look forward to it!


----------



## captainobvious

Michelle worked with me on getting the top panel carpeted. We simply used a matching carpet and spray adhesive, then used an upholstery air stapler to secure it from the backside. The trunk floor sits up slightly higher than before, but it's not an eye catcher and doesn't really stick out visually unless you're looking for it. All 4 amps are in and wired up, dsp is in and the new 15" is in. MUCH more output than previously in the below 40hz department.

Pics coming in a few...


----------



## captainobvious

Pics:


----------



## Babs

Nice!!!
Zoom Zoom!


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bertholomey

That looks FANTASTIC my friend! I can't wait to hear it! Michelle is so talented! I have a few things in my car that she can work on


----------



## Lanson

Trying to stay under the factory floor height has been difficult for me as well. Since I'm waiting on a new DeWalt saw to ship to me before I try to cut a straight line again, I decided to "build" in Sketchup and managed to make a very convincing, accurate rendition of the Speed 3's trunk floor and walls. Since doing that, I've spent hours in front of that screen trying to get the sub to fit under the factory floor height. In the end, I may fail that mission, because I need ~1.5 cubes of airspace (not hard to get) but I also need a HUGE vent port area and volume, like sewer pipe dimensions. Very frustrating to try and build for. I ended up with a non-false floor option but again, the space consumption is aggravating. 

I think it stems from the shallow-ish spare tire well area.


----------



## Bluenote

Nice, what 15" sub is this?


----------



## benny z

agree - looks great.

also, i am now confirmed as being able to go to huntsville next weekend, so i will definitely be able to meet you/hear the car. looking forward to an audition!


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> That looks FANTASTIC my friend! I can't wait to hear it! Michelle is so talented! I have a few things in my car that she can work on


Hah, thanks!

She was having a blast using the air tools for the first time. She was loving the upholstery stapler


----------



## captainobvious

fourthmeal said:


> Trying to stay under the factory floor height has been difficult for me as well. Since I'm waiting on a new DeWalt saw to ship to me before I try to cut a straight line again, I decided to "build" in Sketchup and managed to make a very convincing, accurate rendition of the Speed 3's trunk floor and walls. Since doing that, I've spent hours in front of that screen trying to get the sub to fit under the factory floor height. In the end, I may fail that mission, because I need ~1.5 cubes of airspace (not hard to get) but I also need a HUGE vent port area and volume, like sewer pipe dimensions. Very frustrating to try and build for. I ended up with a non-false floor option but again, the space consumption is aggravating.
> 
> I think it stems from the shallow-ish spare tire well area.



Yeah, you can definitely get it close, depending on the depth of the sub. This sub is in 2.5 cubes sealed right now, so I feel pretty good about the floor height considering that fact. 

I need to get a table saw sometime as well. Would make life a lot easier when building things. :blush:


----------



## captainobvious

Bluenote said:


> Nice, what 15" sub is this?


It's the Dayton Titanic mk4 TS400D 15". 
Dayton Audio TS400D-4 15" Titanic Mk 4 Subwoofer 4 Ohm

Has more xmax (19mm) and a smaller box requirement compared to the previous generation.



benny z said:


> agree - looks great.
> 
> also, i am now confirmed as being able to go to huntsville next weekend, so i will definitely be able to meet you/hear the car. looking forward to an audition!


Congrats! Well be sure to introduce yourself down there. Should be easy to find my car


----------



## Lanson

captainobvious said:


> Yeah, you can definitely get it close, depending on the depth of the sub. This sub is in 2.5 cubes sealed right now, so I feel pretty good about the floor height considering that fact.
> 
> I need to get a table saw sometime as well. Would make life a lot easier when building things. :blush:


The fact you do badass work without one just makes me more impressed. I'll let you know how the DWE7491RS works. It apparently is highly portable but has huge ripping capability, and the fence always stays square due to how it moves with a rack-and-pinion instead of being something you have to lock and unlock all the time. It sounded brilliant so I ordered one right away when I realized my saw wasn't getting back into alignment anytime soon.

Oh, when you were using a more simple router table, what table did you buy, and would you recommend it for basic, beginner use?

I'm working with an SI Mag v3, which has 7" of mounting depth and a huge amount of port requirement (and should be ported.) Whether I get it in a false floor or not remains to be seen. It might end up being a behind-the-seat type design instead.


----------



## benny z

captainobvious said:


> Congrats! Well be sure to introduce yourself down there. Should be easy to find my car


will do! my car will be an older beat up silver bmw 325xi with kick panels that look eerily similar to yours. :blush:


----------



## captainobvious

fourthmeal said:


> The fact you do badass work without one just makes me more impressed. I'll let you know how the DWE7491RS works. It apparently is highly portable but has huge ripping capability, and the fence always stays square due to how it moves with a rack-and-pinion instead of being something you have to lock and unlock all the time. It sounded brilliant so I ordered one right away when I realized my saw wasn't getting back into alignment anytime soon.
> 
> Oh, when you were using a more simple router table, what table did you buy, and would you recommend it for basic, beginner use?
> 
> I'm working with an SI Mag v3, which has 7" of mounting depth and a huge amount of port requirement (and should be ported.) Whether I get it in a false floor or not remains to be seen. It might end up being a behind-the-seat type design instead.




I didn't really have a router table before the one I'm using now. My current one isn't really "portable", but it is fairly solid and damn cheap.
Shop our T10432 - Router Table with Stand at Grizzly.com

You can buy it direct from Grizzly or search the web for it. For the price, it's one hell of a bargain. I use a Dewalt DW618 router and I have the fixed and plunge bases. You simply get the table and lineup your routers mounting holes on the insert that comes with the table, drill and countersink some screws and you're all set. It's a great beginners table.

Now if you want something portable, the two models they have on their page look very solid. Shop Tools and Machinery at Grizzly.com


7" mounting depth is very workable if you're using the spare tire well as part of the space. You can doo eeet!


----------



## JayinMI

The Titanic was a big improvement (in my mind) from last year. Seemed like there was much more authority this time. Still love the sound of those dome mids!

Congrats on the trophy!

Jay


----------



## benny z

Dude! Your car sounded fan-freaking-tastic! It was a pleasure to meet you and I'm happy to be a part of your extended HAT family.


----------



## ErinH

^ agreed. 

on. point.


good job, brother!


----------



## Lanson

Steve I managed to get zero deck height on my sub w/ a steel grille. It was like mm's from not working but check it out (work in progress, all that)


























I ended up using a big piece of perf steel at 12 gauge ('bout 1/8"), it could hold a gorilla when cut to a size like this.


oh and for router and table and such, I went with a JessEm lift, a Bosch router, and a JessEm table top and built everything underneath it from a craftsman stand re-purposed.


----------



## captainobvious

fourthmeal said:


> Steve I managed to get zero deck height on my sub w/ a steel grille. It was like mm's from not working but check it out (work in progress, all that)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I ended up using a big piece of perf steel at 12 gauge ('bout 1/8"), it could hold a gorilla when cut to a size like this.
> 
> 
> oh and for router and table and such, I went with a JessEm lift, a Bosch router, and a JessEm table top and built everything underneath it from a craftsman stand re-purposed.


Sweet ! im looking forward to seeing the continued progress. It's lookinggreat so far!


----------



## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> The Titanic was a big improvement (in my mind) from last year. Seemed like there was much more authority this time. Still love the sound of those dome mids!
> 
> Congrats on the trophy!
> 
> Jay





benny z said:


> Dude! Your car sounded fan-freaking-tastic! It was a pleasure to meet you and I'm happy to be a part of your extended HAT family.





ErinH said:


> ^ agreed.
> 
> on. point.
> 
> 
> good job, brother!



Thanks a bunch fellas. I was honored to make the podium in both Iasca ProAm and meca modex. Both classes are absolutely loaded with outstanding vehicles and it was humbling to have mine do as well as it did. I had some great tuning help from Davy Hay and Scott B to really help realize much of the potential of the install.

Erin- your car was excellent- dont make any major changes as that thing is killer.

Ben- it was a pleasure to meet you and thanks for the kind words about the mazda. Your bmw was damn impressive and i was convinced you'd be on the stage in your class for inac. im glad to see you snagged 2nd in the 3x. Your car is terrific and will give hell to the amateur class next year especiallywith even more time to do some fine tweaks to the tune. Youve got a good one there bud 


i had a great time hanging out with friends over the weekend, catching up with lunches and dinners at some local spots too. My friend Bill from Pa came away world champ in his class this year too which was really cool to see, especially for such a truly nice guy.


----------



## turbo5upra

Congrats again!
Even though it is a Mazda


----------



## turbo5upra

Oh... And "nice wheels"


----------



## helmetface00

turbo5upra said:


> Congrats again!
> Even though it is a Mazda


Haha, even though it's not some dick-swinging contest...I had to defend him, as I used to have the same car!

Here's a low 11's run, still fail-wheel drive...not even the MS3 record 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJlJtiG225c


Great stuff Steve, congrats!


----------



## turbo5upra

helmetface00 said:


> Haha, even though it's not some dick-swinging contest...I had to defend him, as I used to have the same car!
> 
> Here's a low 11's run, still fail-wheel drive...not even the MS3 record
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJlJtiG225c
> 
> 
> Great stuff Steve, congrats!


I know- we bought a '16 cx5 for a week... Had several issues with it and dropped it back off- 2 of the 3 issues were dealer prep inflicted... 3rd one was a radio/phone/navi issue that other ones on the lot didn't have so they ended up trading us out and giving us a deal we couldn't refuse- we miss it in several ways... 
In other words- I don't mind Mazda but it's Steve- I have to pick on him 

And nice wheels has been said many times before but used last night also... "How's my car" well... It's got nice wheels...


----------



## helmetface00

turbo5upra said:


> I know- we bought a '16 cx5 for a week... Had several issues with it and dropped it back off- 2 of the 3 issues were dealer prep inflicted... 3rd one was a radio/phone/navi issue that other ones on the lot didn't have so they ended up trading us out and giving us a deal we couldn't refuse- we miss it in several ways...
> In other words- I don't mind Mazda but it's Steve- I have to pick on him
> 
> And nice wheels has been said many times before but used last night also... "How's my car" well... It's got nice wheels...


Hahaha gotcha on the wheels.

Hope you guys are happy with the Cx5! We were looking at them last year, but ended up going with a Subaru Crosstrek for the misses...like any new vehicle, we have our gripes.


----------



## captainobvious

turbo5upra said:


> Congrats again!
> Even though it is a Mazda



Bastad...


:laugh:



Thanks bud. Was great to see you out there. I was hoping to get a lunch in with you but with you being a JUDGE and all  :surprised:


Great job and I'll see you soon up here in our neck of the woods.


----------



## bertholomey

I concur......great to see the Mazda 'finished' and super tuned......the car sounded fantastic! Amazing even. I really enjoyed my demo - Congrats on your results - they were earned! 

And....thank you for your hospitality and generosity. It was great hanging out with you again my friend!


----------



## Notloudenuf

So it plays AND I might actually get to hear it??? Oh goodie!!!!


----------



## captainobvious

Notloudenuf said:


> So it plays AND I might actually get to hear it??? Oh goodie!!!!


I can only guarantee one of these two statements at any given time...

:laugh:



Yeah it's sounding pretty darn good right now. The late season additions made a nice improvement


----------



## GLN305

captainobvious said:


> I can only guarantee one of these two statements at any given time...
> 
> :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah it's sounding pretty darn good right now. The late season additions made a nice improvement


It's a damn nice sounding car, impressed me more than most I have heard. You have it all figured out!


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> I concur......great to see the Mazda 'finished' and super tuned......the car sounded fantastic! Amazing even. I really enjoyed my demo - Congrats on your results - they were earned!
> 
> And....thank you for your hospitality and generosity. It was great hanging out with you again my friend!





GLN305 said:


> It's a damn nice sounding car, impressed me more than most I have heard. You have it all figured out!


Thank you for such kind compliments guys. I had a great time hanging out with my friends this weekend. Wish we all got to see each other more.


----------



## Babs

Hope to finally see the sexy speed3 at Jason's.. and hear it of course. Looking forward to Mazda bringing it back I thought I read.


----------



## captainobvious

Not sure yet if I'll be making it Scott. Just got back from finals and were taking a vacation next week for our anniversary so it might be tough to make it down there. We'll see what the lady says...


----------



## Babs

captainobvious said:


> Not sure yet if I'll be making it Scott. Just got back from finals and were taking a vacation next week for our anniversary so it might be tough to make it down there. We'll see what the lady says...


Gotcha.. Yeah I remembered you mentioning that now duh. 
Yep. Anniversary here as well. I need to put some imagination into it. Currently we're selling popcorn with our Webelo scout. woo hoo


----------



## Babs

Glad you made it to the meet Sir. One of the top three cars I've ever heard. Ironically, it's a mis-statement to say it's a nice sounding car. The car gets out of the way and simply gets out of the way of the music. The install and tune was that spot on I think. The fruits of much smart labor on it for sure.

That install is a work of art. Nice to see a Director in person and like how you have it mounted for chillin' down the road with the Director at easy length at the console.

THANK YOU for all your great info and getting some significant sets of ears in my car for feedback. My tune was/is screwy at present enough for me to question a hardware bug somewhere but not sure, but the feedback was great help in assessing where to direct some efforts. And big thanks for the power supply to try with some optical to DSP hardware. And big thanks again for the ideas for the trunk, and what a great idea on mounting up that 30A supply in-car for straight plug in A/C for meets or possibly comps, should I ever get the courage.

Safe journey back to PA my friend.


----------



## captainobvious

Babs said:


> Glad you made it to the meet Sir. One of the top three cars I've ever heard. Ironically, it's a mis-statement to say it's a nice sounding car. The car gets out of the way and simply gets out of the way of the music. The install and tune was that spot on I think. The fruits of much smart labor on it for sure.
> 
> That install is a work of art. Nice to see a Director in person and like how you have it mounted for chillin' down the road with the Director at easy length at the console.
> 
> THANK YOU for all your great info and getting some significant sets of ears in my car for feedback. My tune was/is screwy at present enough for me to question a hardware bug somewhere but not sure, but the feedback was great help in assessing where to direct some efforts. And big thanks for the power supply to try with some optical to DSP hardware. And big thanks again for the ideas for the trunk, and what a great idea on mounting up that 30A supply in-car for straight plug in A/C for meets or possibly comps, should I ever get the courage.
> 
> Safe journey back to PA my friend.


Thanks Scott. Was great to see you again as well. Thanks for the fine compliments on the Mazda. Your Civic was no slouch itself- sounded great!

Let me know if you need any ideas when doing the trunk amp rack


----------



## Babs

Thank you. I figure if she improves with each meet by 20% in oh 5 or six years she'll be where this Mazda is. Lol. 

Will do. I'm definitely rolling with that stand up idea on the rack I think. Great idea. Trunk space with some bling behind the seat. Was my main goal for the meet to get your eye for amp work on it. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Notloudenuf

So this car actually plays now AND I missed it? 
<----- Fail


----------



## Babs

Notloudenuf said:


> So this car actually plays now AND I missed it?
> <----- Fail



Oh man. You gotta find a way to hear it too before anything changes. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## captainobvious

Notloudenuf said:


> So this car actually plays now AND I missed it?
> <----- Fail



Yep. And to think I came to the meet just for you to hear it...


:surprised:



No but I was happy to finally be able to get the NCSQ crowd some proper demos with the car setup well. It needs a few _minor _tweaks to the frequency response curve and it will be right where I want it to be. It's about 90% of the way right now to "ideal system" for me so that's wayyyyyyy further than I've ever been with one of my systems before. Bummer you weren't able to make it out.
The weather actually didn't dampen anything and it really cooperated for us which was great.


----------



## crackinhedz

Steve, your Mazda is the first car Ive ever heard that had the sound stage literally out on the hood. Such a surreal experience. And gets nice and loud.


----------



## Bluenote

Steve, kinda late with this, but was there a reason for dropping the ZR800 for the L8v2? Both looked great in the kicks btw!


----------



## captainobvious

crackinhedz said:


> Steve, your Mazda is the first car Ive ever heard that had the sound stage literally out on the hood. Such a surreal experience. And gets nice and loud.



Thanks! 

I'm glad you liked it. Hopefully you'll be back at more of Jason's meets and you'll get to get more seat time.





Bluenote said:


> Steve, kinda late with this, but was there a reason for dropping the ZR800 for the L8v2? Both looked great in the kicks btw!


I was already running the Hybrid domes and tweeters and felt the L8v2 would be a better choice for playing higher up to the dome mids, matching sensitivity and providing similar tonality. They've done a great job for me for sure. The JL's are also excellent midbasses. Really can't go wrong with either.


----------



## Bluenote

Thx! after more research I see the idea for the move. Matching sensitivity is something I honestly hadnt considered. Thx again!


----------



## Babs

crackinhedz said:


> Steve, your Mazda is the first car Ive ever heard that had the sound stage literally out on the hood. Such a surreal experience. And gets nice and loud.


Truly.. That stage was as lovely and deep as it was precise. I was in "imaging" mode a lot so that image was the thing that blew me away in Steve's and Jason's cars both, but the stage in this Mazda is a thing to behold. I kinda sorta became a bit of a HAT fan as well with those dome mids. Nothing like getting a nice mid driver to fit in a space as thick as a handheld calculator.


----------



## benny z

Babs said:


> I kinda sorta became a bit of a HAT fan...


ain't no shame in that! :blush:


----------



## Babs

Babs said:


> I kinda sorta became a bit of a HAT fan as well with those dome mids.





benny z said:


> ain't no shame in that! :blush:


I should clarify I've always loved the gear. It's just the drivers I'd want to use are beyond the budget because I'd have to go Legatia Pro.


----------



## captainobvious

All started for me with the L4 and L1 pro many years ago. The L4 is still one of my top midrange drivers at any price. The L3pro domes just have a little something special there. And they look incredible too.


----------



## subwoofery

What Xover did you settle on for your dome midrange? 

Kelvin


----------



## captainobvious

subwoofery said:


> What Xover did you settle on for your dome midrange?
> 
> Kelvin


Ill have to check for exact, but its around 400hz, @24db.


----------



## Coppertone

Alright for those of us not able to make the meet due to medical problems, can I see some pictures of The Director installed please ?


----------



## captainobvious

The Director was installed in a housing I built as a temporary solution for finals. It's not the prettiest, but it got the job done. I'll be doing something prettier and more permanent in another couple months after things settle down at the house with getting it put together.


Speaking of...
We bought a foreclosure in rough shape in an awesome neighborhood about 5 months ago and have been working quite a bit over that time to get everything repaired and put back together. When I say rough shape, I mean water damage, (already remediated)half the drywall was missing, no flooring (subfloor only everywhere), stucco issues, roof, windows, plumbing, electrical, etc etc. It's been quite a project!

We had a fairly crappy fireplace and surround that came in the house. Basic, builder grade slop and the mantle was hanging out of the wall. Not surprising when we pulled it off and it was held onto the wall with about 4 nails! Somebody got lazy...





Anyway, in building out the new family room, we wanted to have some decent sound, but a small footprint so we could maximize the space in the room. Here's what the room looked like before:





In the second pic, you're looking at the back corner. There was a wall there that separated the kitchen and the family room. We knocked that down and ran a beam about 20ft across to carry the load and open up the space.



From the hall (through the missing drywall  ) you can see the wall separating the rooms. It was a pantry closet.


----------



## captainobvious

And with the wall removed and beam in place:






Anyway...We started working on getting the new surround designed and built out and finally wrapped it up this weekend. We did a nice stone tile around the fireplace insert and then decided to integrate the audio for a sleek look and to keep plenty of space (More on that later). I searched a bunch of designs and eventually just drew up my own and went with that. We built the surround out of pine and MDF and trimmed out nicely with some 1x3, crown, etc.














Unfortunately, I didn't get more pics after I painted the whole thing up and put the finishing touches on. I'll snap a few later tonight and post them up so you can see the finished product. Came out pretty good! The speakers used are a Dayton LCR mtm in wall for the center and the Speakercraft AIM Cinema One for the mains.
In addition, we ran wiring when the walls were open for ceiling speakers for house audio. I installed a zone audio system with controls in each of the downstairs rooms that allow you to select an independent source and control volume in each room. I'll get some pics of those as well.


----------



## bertholomey

That is an awesome job! Very cool to now see the context pics of the before / after - even more impressive. This is like what we see on Fixer Upper - love the idea of opening up that wall! I can't wait to see updated pics when things are done....even better - to see it in person  I'll have to show V this pics!


----------



## Babs

Very cool! Congrats and good luck!


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Golden Ear

Another kind of diy, sweet! 


Sent from my mind using telekinesis


----------



## benny z

love it!


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks guys. I'll post up some more of the house transformation later tonight or tomorrow as well. Pretty crazy where it was 5 months ago vs now.


----------



## turbo5upra

Looks great... Not to rain on your parade but did you check code on the new "mantal" height?


----------



## turbo5upra

I'm not sure if this pertains to all types of fireplaces (gas,wood,pellets) but this is what I was referring to: Fireplace Mantel Clearances


----------



## captainobvious

turbo5upra said:


> I'm not sure if this pertains to all types of fireplaces (gas,wood,pellets) but this is what I was referring to: Fireplace Mantel Clearances



Thanks for the info. I'm having a fireplace guy come out to inspect the fireplace, check gas line, etc so I'll have him check out the mantel/surround to see what he thinks. The surround housing sits about 4" off the height of the tile from the wall, and is about 16" or so up from the opening of the fireplace doors. The actual top mantle is about 9" off the wall and sits about 30" up from the fireplace door opening. I think I'm good for the mantle piece, but I'm not sure about the "box" for the center channel speaker above the tile work. We'll see what he has to say.


----------



## Lanson

Hey Steve I finally got my build thread up for the MS3 I'm working on

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...lery/233282-2013-mazdaspeed3-brother-law.html


----------



## captainobvious

fourthmeal said:


> Hey Steve I finally got my build thread up for the MS3 I'm working on
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...lery/233282-2013-mazdaspeed3-brother-law.html



Sweet! Will check it out.


----------



## SQLnovice

Not sure if i miss it, but did you give your impression of the L3PRO. If not, may we have a little review? 
Thanks


----------



## captainobvious

Edit: Double post


----------



## captainobvious

SQLnovice said:


> Not sure if i miss it, but did you give your impression of the L3PRO. If not, may we have a little review?
> Thanks



The L3Pro is terrific dome mid. The car has gotten fantastic scores and comments from competition judges about the midrange/high frequency performance of the vehicle- particularly the detail. They both look AND sound terrific. Installation is made easy because they have a sealed back chamber so no need to provide an enclosure space for them.
There is a caveat though- dome mids (these included) typically need to be crossed over higher than a cone mid of the same size due to being more fragile and having lower xmax. I posted the specs below. They have an FS of 249hz free air. I've used these with crossovers in the 350hz-500hz range. Steeper slopes the lower you go though obviously.
These domes just have a bit of a different sound to them than the cone mids I've used in the car. I'd certainly recommend them.


Speaking of competition, the Mazda took 4th in its class in Meca this year and 3rd in Iasca- both arguably the most stacked classes as well. I'd argue the midrange is the most important driver in a system as well, so it performed really well. 





Overall Diameter f99 mm (3.9-inch)
Mounting Depth 44 mm
Mounting Hole f85 mm
Mounting Methodology Surface-mount midrange with standard-pitch M99 X
4mm thick knurled thread aluminum adapter to
secure the midrange body from the rear
Construction Solid machined aluminum with integrated
polypropylene rear cap and push terminals
Distortion <5% max at rated power input, no crossover
Magnet Diameter and Construction 49.5 X 5mm H NdFeB
Recommended Minimum Crossover Frequency 400 Hz at 24 dB/octave highpass
Pnom Rated Power Input (No Crossover) 30 watts (AES Standard)
Pmax Rated Power Input (No Crossover) 60 watts (AES Standard)
Pmax (With Recommended Minimum Crossover) 80 watts
Frequency Range 249 Hz – 13,000 Hz, +/- 3 dB
Sensitivity 94 dB at 2.83V/1meter
Mms 5.8 g
Cms NA
BL NA
Voice Coil Diameter 50.5 mm (2-inch)
Impedance 4 
DC Resistance 3.0 
Fs 249 Hz (free air)
Qms 2.349
Qes 0.657
Qts 0.513
Xmax 2 mm (one way)


----------



## bbfoto

Great info, Steve. Thanks for posting. In your experience, what should the top-end XO be on these before they get funky? And it might not seem like much, but 4mm Peak-to-Peak Xmax is very respectable for this size and type of driver. I can see the need to lean towards higher-order slopes though.

I think Scott B has always had a "thing" for dome midrange drivers.  He used and promoted/sold the DLS Ultimate Iridium 3 Dome Mids before he started H.A.T. and had a good bit of success with them.


----------



## SQLnovice

Thank you very much. These are not common, at least to me. I'm building my front stage around a pair of ZR800 i already have and these might work. I like that they are dome and would be easier for me to install. Thanks again for your time and all the great info provided in your response. Contemplating the ones in the classified.


----------



## bbfoto

SQLnovice said:


> Thank you very much. These are not common, at least to me. I'm building my front stage around a pair of ZR800 i already have and these might work. I like that they are dome and would be easier for me to install. Thanks again for your time and all the great info provided in your response. Contemplating the ones in the classified.


The ZR800's are obviously great drivers. But I think Steve was probably smart to trade the ZR's supreme mid-bass low-end extension for the HAT L8v2's so that the upper end of the midbass would blend better and be more timbre-matched to the dome mids. In order to wail on these dome mids you typically need to have a fairly high LPF frequency as Steve mentioned above. So it might be a challenge to achieve both a good XO/blend and also have the dynamic capability as well when using the ZR's with these domes. Obviously it will still work great with the ZR's, but with competing, I'm sure that Steve wanted to optimize every aspect of his front stage.


----------



## SQLnovice

bbfoto said:


> The ZR800's are obviously great drivers. But I think Steve was probably smart to trade the ZR's supreme mid-bass low-end extension for the HAT L8's so that the upper end of the midbass would blend better and be more timbre-matched to the dome mids. In order to wail on these dome mids you typically need to have a fairly high LPF frequency as Steve mentioned above. So it might be a challenge to achieve both a good XO/blend and also have the dynamic capability as well when using the ZR's with these domes. Obviously it will still work great with the ZR's, but with competing, I'm sure that Steve wanted to optimize every aspect of his front stage.


That was my concern with the ZR. They will not play high enough to mate with the L3PRO. Thanks.


----------



## Lanson

I'm thinking they will go great with some CSS mids/tweets though, that's my goal.


----------



## captainobvious

bbfoto said:


> Great info, Steve. Thanks for posting. In your experience, what should the top-end XO be on these before they get funky? And it might not seem like much, but 4mm Peak-to-Peak Xmax is very respectable for this size and type of driver. I can see the need to lean towards higher-order slopes though.
> 
> I think Scott B has always had a "thing" for dome midrange drivers.  He used and promoted/sold the DLS Ultimate Iridium 3 Dome Mids before he started H.A.T. and had a good bit of success with them.


Yep, 2mm xmax linear xmax is very respectable for a pair of domes indeed. Top end LPF is a matter of preference and what you're trying to do so it's tough to say a specific number. If you're trying to avoid beaming and keep a consistent power response in the system, then you may want to keep these crossed in the 3-4k range. If you're trying to either (a) use beaming to narrow response off of reflective surfaces nearby (I don't really buy into this), or if you're trying to produce as much content from the driver for whatever reason, you could take these up to 6-8K with a steep slope.
Personally, I prefer to cross speakers over close to, or below their beaming point (and always when used off axis) to get a more even power response in the car and avoid the "pinpoint" sweet-spot that causes it to sound quite a bit different dependent on head position.

I like these from 400hz-3.15khz LR4.


----------



## captainobvious

SQLnovice said:


> That was my concern with the ZR. They will not play high enough to mate with the L3PRO. Thanks.



I think you'd be just fine with the ZR800 at 400hz 24db mating to the dome mid.  I found the ZR800's to do pretty darn well playing to that point actually. I just prefer the response (especially above 250hz) of the L8v2 and the way it complements the rest of the system. It gives me a lot of flexibility with playing around with crossover points in the system. The ZR800 is an outstanding driver though in its own right.


----------



## JayinMI

I've told Steve on a few occassions, but I think his mids are my favorite part of his system. Although, the new sub is pretty sweet, too.

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

I haven't made any updates here in quite a while. I have a few new changes to the system and some in the works and it's been making it's way to Iasca and Meca competitions throughout the season to work towards finals. Although it's not yet in it's final stage of install/tuning for the 2016 season heading into finals, it's still doing well at shows and continuing to improve.


----------



## Babs

Haha.. Love how your car just kinda smiles at ya.. Looks like a red Herbie proud behind his trophies.


----------



## Coppertone

Lol it may smile on the front, but this thing is a beast torque steering wise. If I were into front wheel drive cars, and about 100lbs lighter, this is what I would rock.


----------



## Black Rain

Well glad to see that you are competing regularly and having success. Would love to see those new changes.


----------



## Babs

Coppertone said:


> Lol it may smile on the front, but this thing is a beast torque steering wise. If I were into front wheel drive cars, and about 100lbs lighter, this is what I would rock.


I can vouch for that.. I got dusted by one on a long uphill. He saw the scoop on my wife's Forester and figured I'd want to race. Uh, nope.. No hanging with that.


----------



## captainobvious

Stock they have 263hp and 280lb-ft of torque. They get up and go


----------



## captainobvious

Black Rain said:


> Well glad to see that you are competing regularly and having success. Would love to see those new changes.


Part of the new philosophy with the changes is that you don't "see" them 


I don't want visual distractions that make the eyes hear the locations for the listener/judge. None of my speakers are visible in the new configuration. My kicks are there and noticeable, but with the grills on they don't pull your eye to the area and say "hey look over here". 


I may also totally rework the trunk to look much more presentable in the future. I'd like for it to look and sound great and I may try my hand at install next year in competition. Need to keep honing the skills.


----------



## danno14

Babs said:


> Haha.. Love how your car just kinda smiles at ya.. Looks like a red Herbie proud behind his trophies.


I just had vision of it with teeth, and darn near blew a dring out my nose!

I'll try to load a pic later..... photo won't upload from the plane 





Sorry Steve, I don't mean to 'dis your car!


----------



## captainobvious

Winter is coming...




This should keep the toes warm.















.


----------



## Babs

It's like a short teaser trailer for a new Star Wars movie. 
The suspense.. Oh the suspense!


----------



## Black Rain

Awesome new setup. Looks like you have moved to AF subs and Matrix amps? Loved to see what has been done on the dash.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


----------



## captainobvious

Dash is not yet done. I have to mold in some pieces and see where I'm at. 

I'm going to be testing out and comparing the DSP Pro and PS8 with new updates in the car. Both have strengths and weaknesses and I think the best way to make a decision on the 2 is to get them connected up and tune the car up and see how they do.

Helix DSP Pro strengths vs PS8:
-Adjustable phase in increments
-10 outputs vs 8
-20 presets vs 4
-Slightly larger display and touchscreen on controller

PS8 strengths vs DSP Pro:
-better resolution on EQ (0.1 increments) 
-deeper xover slopes available
-Controller allows full programming of dsp
-Deeper EQ boost/cut ability
-Higher voltage output 8v vs 6v


I also find the one page control view of the Helix software to be much easier to program, but once you get familiar with the gui of any of these dsp's, it's not a big deal.


Really the big deal is the PS8 controller allowing dsp configuration. Noone else does it except Alpine and the PS8 is far more robust. Downside is the controller screen is tiny. Big drawback is the adjustable phase not being in the featureset of the PS8. I think that's a useful feature, but we'll see how needed it is in my application. I think I can manage without.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

captainobvious said:


> Dash is not yet done. I have to mold in some pieces and see where I'm at.
> 
> I'm going to be testing out and comparing the DSP Pro and PS8 with new updates in the car. Both have strengths and weaknesses and I think the best way to make a decision on the 2 is to get them connected up and tune the car up and see how they do.
> 
> Helix DSP Pro strengths vs PS8:
> -Adjustable phase in increments
> -10 outputs vs 8
> -20 presets vs 4
> -Slightly larger display and touchscreen on controller
> 
> PS8 strengths vs DSP Pro:
> -better resolution on EQ (0.1 increments)
> -deeper xover slopes available
> -Controller allows full programming of dsp
> -Deeper EQ boost/cut ability
> -Higher voltage output 8v vs 6v
> 
> 
> I also find the one page control view of the Helix software to be much easier to program, but once you get familiar with the gui of any of these dsp's, it's not a big deal.
> 
> 
> Really the big deal is the PS8 controller allowing dsp configuration. Noone else does it except Alpine and the PS8 is far more robust. Downside is the controller screen is tiny. Big drawback is the adjustable phase not being in the featureset of the PS8. I think that's a useful feature, but we'll see how needed it is in my application. I think I can manage without.


Arc has better op amps than burr brown and you can use others than the factory TI models (IIRC)
This imho impacts resolution and 3D realism the most.


----------



## thehatedguy

The PS8 has 5532s stock on the outputs. I wouldn't say they are exactly state of the art. And some quads that aren't socketed on the inputs. So unless you are going digital in, those output opamps are still being hamstrung by the inputs.

I don't know what is in the DSP Pro...probably can pop mine open tonight to see.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

thehatedguy said:


> I don't know what is in the DSP Pro...probably can pop mine open tonight to see.


BurrBrowns


----------



## AVIDEDTR




----------



## thehatedguy

BurrBrown is just, or was just a brand name. TI bought them a while back. You can get BB/TI from everything from a TL072 to an OPA 627.

But I don't see any TI opamps in the picture.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

Isnt this a TI chip?


----------



## thehatedguy

Yeah but it's not an op amp...that's the CODEC.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

ok gotcha!!


----------



## thehatedguy

That does the ADC/DAC conversion.


----------



## thehatedguy

Plus, are you sure that is the DSP Pro?

My DSP Pro has a few more plugs on the side of the controller plug.


----------



## thehatedguy

Just opened my DSP Pro up, and the picture is the regular DSP,

The DSP Pro has 5 of the ST MC33078s for the outputs where the DSP has 2 MC33079 quads on the outputs.


----------



## captainobvious

The new build begins....


Starting with wiring. There are some things I wanted to do differently which necessitated some new speaker wiring runs as well as some (maybe not necessary) power wiring. But if I'm going to rip out the interior to do some wiring, I may as well do it up matching and right and get it the way I want it.


All wiring was done up in this pretty carbon techflex and heatshrink.




You can find it on ebay through userid furryletters. Also available at Wirecare.com


Because of the planned upgrade to amplification in the vehicle, I decided to up the supply power wiring and I also wanted to re-route things so that it looks better under the hood as well. 

First, I decided on a location for the fusing and circuit breakers. I decided to run (2) 1/0awg power wires to the rear for distribution to the amplifiers and accessories. Stinger Pro wiring was used. I chose to mount the circuit breakers in the same location as the stock fuse box under the hood due to available space and distance to the battery. I traced out the stock fuse box cover and made a template to match the contour, then routed out a piece of 1/4" HDPE with a 1/4" spiral flush trim bit. These are super handy in fabrication with many uses. You can find them through Joey at 12vtools at his website or on facebook.
I then installed nutserts into the stock fuse box lid and secured the mounting plate with allen bolts. I also used t nuts in the hdpe along with allen bolts to mount the new pair of Stinger circuit breakers.




Since I use a battery much larger than the stock size, the stock wiring also needed to be modified and provided with a fuse. Since there is limited space, a piece of abs was routed out by my friend Dave (TheDavel) and we heat bent it to the angle needed for the new piece. This would allow the abs to trim the top of the battery out and provide a mounting point for the distribution. I installed a Streetwires FBXS20 fused distribution block and secured it to the abs with T nuts and allen bolts.


----------



## captainobvious

The wiring runs were routed up through the shroud this time around for a much cleaner look. Previously, they were run around the front of the engine area which requires more wire length, but also is a bit of an eye-sore. 

Here are the wires roughed through the holes through the shroud.




Grommets used for safety and to make it look nicer.








New signal wiring (Stinger) and speaker wiring was run and secured in the vehicle neatly.












Wiring to the engine compartment passes through a stock plastic grommet.




...and into the shroud area through a grommet I installed.




This time around, I decided to try a method shown by Mark of CarAudioFabrication. He has a youtube channel and a website- both of which are excellent for instructing DIYers on how to do all things car audio install/fabrication related. These are called wire ferrules. It's a thin metal piece that slips over your wire before inserting into a set screw type terminal. When you tighten down the set screw, it compresses this thin ferrule around the wire extremely tightly and makes for an even more secure connection. Pulling hard on the wire offers no movement- these work great.




All techflexed and heat-skrinked up.



Connections made to the battery. (Note that the cable connection from the battery to the Streetwires unit is temporary and will be replaced to match the others shortly)


----------



## BlackHHR

Nice !!


----------



## Coppertone

Oh wow, you've really stepped up your game their friend.


----------



## ErinH

Nice!

I really dig the wire ferrules. I may need to get some of those myself!


For the engine bay grommet, I know it may be 'too late' but just in case it's not, I thought I'd recommend something I feel is a bit safer and also provides an airtight seal around the wire that protects against water and wind noise:
http://amzn.to/2aKiEFv

It's Stinger's grommet and they come in a variety of sizes. 

Like I said... just a suggestion in case you weren't already aware of them.


----------



## ErinH

side question...

with all the upgraded wiring it's obvious you're 'concerned' (for lack of better word) about the current draw from your new amps. new big battery certainly helps... but are you also considering a HO alternator for driving while jamming?


----------



## bertholomey

Looks fantastic as always!!!


----------



## captainobvious

ErinH said:


> Nice!
> 
> I really dig the wire ferrules. I may need to get some of those myself!
> 
> 
> For the engine bay grommet, I know it may be 'too late' but just in case it's not, I thought I'd recommend something I feel is a bit safer and also provides an airtight seal around the wire that protects against water and wind noise:
> http://amzn.to/2aKiEFv
> 
> It's Stinger's grommet and they come in a variety of sizes.
> 
> Like I said... just a suggestion in case you weren't already aware of them.



Thanks!

Yeah I thought about them but they would be too big of a protrusion to work well for this application unfortunately :blush:

Great for typical firewall stuff though for sure!


Here is where to get the 1/0 ferrules without having to buy them in the 100+ qty.

1 0 GA Ferrules 0 71" Pin LG Pack of 25 | eBay


I got all of mine from ebay. Got a bunch in smaller sizes as well and will use them for the remote and speaker wire connections to the amps as well.


----------



## Babs

Coppertone said:


> Oh wow, you've really stepped up your game their friend.



Was my first thought as well, even though I'd seen some seriously nice work before from this fellow. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## captainobvious

ErinH said:


> side question...
> 
> with all the upgraded wiring it's obvious you're 'concerned' (for lack of better word) about the current draw from your new amps. new big battery certainly helps... but are you also considering a HO alternator for driving while jamming?



I haven't yet looked into sourcing one, but I have considered it. I'm not sure if I want to get into the expense of having one built and installed. It's not an easy task for me as I don't have experience doing it, it's located in a tough spot and I'd also need to get access to it via a lift or jack stands I suppose.

I figure it will be a very rare occasion (if ever) that I actually end up drawing the type of current that would *require* the upgraded alternator, but I guess I'll just have to see after I get things buttoned up.


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> Looks fantastic as always!!!


Thanks Jason!


----------



## captainobvious

Babs said:


> Was my first thought as well, even though I'd seen some seriously nice work before from this fellow.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Thanks Scott. I'm always trying to get better (both with the fabricating and the tuning). Both are very difficult :blush:


----------



## Babs

captainobvious said:


> Thanks Scott. I'm always trying to get better (both with the fabricating and the tuning). _*Both are very difficult*_ :blush:


Which is why we do it huh.. Because it's not easy.


----------



## benny z

Very nice, Steve. Can't wait to see more!


----------



## Babs

- Aristotle


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cmusic

Nice job on your wiring. Since you said you might do some install competitions, remember this for wiring:

1. Read the rules or the organization you plan to compete in. Do your wiring according to the rules.
2. You are scored basically on the worst wire the judge sees, either by eye-sight or in your install book pictures. Don't let the judge see any bad looking wires.
3. Go though the rulebook and learn what wiring is actually judged. Then either show in your install presentation speech or your install book that every wire in your system should earn the top score in every category. 
4.Take pictures of _all_ wiring connections to each speaker and system components if the judge can't see them by eye sight.
5. Read the rules.
and
6. Read the rules again.

Generally USACi and MECA has harder install judging than IASCA, but the real big difference is how you are scored. IASCA scores each system to the rule book. USACi and MECA scores each system to the previous systems judged at the event. I started out in IASCA and was a trained IASCA judge, so I prefer their scoring method, but either method is valid and fair.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

Worst wire seen. Not if I'm judging. all wires need to be accounted for and properly terminated secured and if any are hidden,has to be in the photos books and or explain why it's hidden

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mic10is

as mentioned...all system wires must be accounted for in the install log. All speaker terminations should be accounted for as well. a common problem is people only show one set of speaker termination. 

Wires should be secured every 8" as per the last rules revision. IASCA rulebook also very specifically states that tape cannot be used to secure wiring. 

I am very big on wiring when I judge install. I've found many things others have overlooked and found many discrepancies between what was presented and what was shown.
when I judge and how I trained judges was to listen to what the competitor is saying and then look to see if the install log represents what was just said or are there big differences.

I had a competitor tell me that all wires were loomed and secured every 8", but pictures of remote wire and rca's were clearly showing they were loomed or secured in the same picture they were trying to show how the speaker wire was loomed and secured.
When asked about it...it was a true facepalm moment for the competitor.


----------



## rton20s

cmusic said:


> Generally USACi and MECA has harder install judging than IASCA, but the real big difference is how you are scored. IASCA scores each system to the rule book. USACi and MECA scores each system to the previous systems judged at the event. I started out in IASCA and was a trained IASCA judge, so I prefer their scoring method, but either method is valid and fair.


Not that I am a seasoned judge, but I have judged install in MECA a few times now. For the most part, I am judging each car against the categories and point tables outlined in the rule book. Where the other competitor cars *MAY* come in to play is where there is a point range allotted within a particular subjective category. This is usually in the Creativity and Presentation. In some cases it can bleed into the other categories as well, but is always secondary to the rule book.


----------



## rton20s

Mic10is said:


> I had a competitor tell me that all wires were loomed and secured every 8", but pictures of remote wire and rca's were clearly showing they *were* loomed or secured in the same picture they were trying to show how the speaker wire was loomed and secured.
> When asked about it...it was a true facepalm moment for the competitor.


Just to clarify... did you mean to say "*weren't* loomed or secured"?


----------



## AccordUno

cmusic said:


> Nice job on your wiring. Since you said you might do some install competitions, remember this for wiring:
> 
> 1. Read the rules or the organization you plan to compete in. Do your wiring according to the rules.
> 2. You are scored basically on the worst wire the judge sees, either by eye-sight or in your install book pictures. Don't let the judge see any bad looking wires.
> 3. Go though the rulebook and learn what wiring is actually judged. Then either show in your install presentation speech or your install book that every wire in your system should earn the top score in every category.
> 4.Take pictures of _all_ wiring connections to each speaker and system components if the judge can't see them by eye sight.
> 5. Read the rules.
> and
> 6. Read the rules again.
> 
> Generally USACi and MECA has harder install judging than IASCA, but the real big difference is how you are scored. IASCA scores each system to the rule book. USACi and MECA scores each system to the previous systems judged at the event. I started out in IASCA and was a trained IASCA judge, so I prefer their scoring method, but either method is valid and fair.


This!

I will tell you, back in the day before meca competitors doing all three, I had to change up my install a little to meet IASCA rules. So I took pictures of all my connections, wire shielding, had to clean up the power wire connections, etc.. based off the rule book and judges that I know in IASCA, really entertaining..


----------



## Mic10is

Yes. Wires that were not loomed and secured. Just laying there


----------



## thehatedguy

It used to be if you did your install by the USACi rules, you were more than good for the other organizations.

Though probably showing how long it's been since I competed...lol.


----------



## captainobvious




----------



## Coppertone

Very nice, now it's time for me to ship mine over to be installed lol.


----------



## captainobvious

...and all done on that piece.

Process: removed ash tray, bonded in place, sanded and then applied filler, sanded/spot filled/sanded more. Hit it with some poly primer, sanded smooth and then hit it with SEM texture coat. After that I used a scotch pad to knock down any high spots and then followed it up with SEM Trim Black. I also did the cup holder piece that it butts up against to keep a uniform look.


----------



## carlr

Looks awesome!


----------



## dgr932

Perfection.


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks fellas 

Have to work out the design on the source unit piece now.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

captainobvious said:


> Thanks fellas
> 
> Have to work out the design on the source unit piece now.


What did you decide on for Source Steve ?

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


----------



## captainobvious

P99RS


----------



## Black Rain

Excellent Controller mod. That came out really smooth.


----------



## Babs

captainobvious said:


> P99RS


Keepin' it classy! 
That's going to look sharp I bet, and compliment the controller.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

Looks good, ps8 controller turned out great

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


----------



## captainobvious

AVIDEDTR said:


> Looks good, ps8 controller turned out great
> 
> Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk



Thanks 

I need to get crackin' on this system and get it all wired up and going as we have some big events coming up shortly.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

Come up to my place and finish mine when you're done

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


----------



## captainobvious

Hahaha no problem...


----------



## captainobvious

Made some progress on the dash piece for the source unit. 

Typically, these kits are a boring plastic piece with a double din cutout and if you want to use a single din unit, you get an ugly pocket to be the piece that takes up the extra space. I wanted something a little nicer, so I rebuilt the piece.


----------



## captainobvious

Suede wrapped...









Press fit





.


----------



## tjswarbrick

So clean.
I have no idea how you do that...


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks


It still needs a little work. Plus, I hadn't checked the fitment of this dash kit (I have 2 others from a different manufacturer and they fit absolutely perfect. This one, no so much.... sigh.

I may have to re-work one of the other ones. 


Too much to do right now though to get ready for the Syracuse Customs triple point event and money round. Going to be a big show so I need to get this thing playing and can work on the cosmetics a little later.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

captainobvious said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> It still needs a little work. Plus, I hadn't checked the fitment of this dash kit (I have 2 others from a different manufacturer and they fit absolutely perfect. This one, no so much.... sigh.
> 
> I may have to re-work one of the other ones.
> 
> 
> Too much to do right now though to get ready for the Syracuse Customs triple point event and money round. Going to be a big show so I need to get this thing playing and can work on the cosmetics a little later.


Don't forget Best Demo win's a free pair of speakers valued at $1500.

The car is looking awesome steve.


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks brother


----------



## captainobvious

Well, still more cosmetic things to tackle and some more fine tuning to do before the Hybrid GP and Finals...but the car fared pretty well at the NY state finals show over the weekend. I got some nice feedback and some things to work on. On the right track I think... 


I was honored to receive 1st in Iasca Amateur, 1st in Meca Modex, SQ/SQL best of show and 1st in the money round. 

Still plenty of room for some improvement though and things to work on. Thanks to the judges for the valuable feedback!


----------



## naiku

Congratulations!! That's pretty awesome.


----------



## SkizeR

congrats again steve!


----------



## Babs

Can't wait to hear it.. If better than last meet holy moly I can't imagine.


----------



## Coppertone

I'm not sure which is smiling harder, you or the front of your car lol.


----------



## Babs

Coppertone said:


> I'm not sure which is smiling harder, you or the front of your car lol.



I know right. That body speed3 is certainly my fav. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ugnlol

Keep up the good work (and pictures )!


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks fellas!


----------



## Coppertone

No need to thank us as you are the one with the skills who is sharing.


----------



## Black Rain

Congrats Steve, I know you have putting some work in trying to redesign you install and its good to see that it is paying off.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

Steve, it was a pleasure for me to judge your car this past weekends money round.

I wish you best of luck at finals and I hope my feedback provides what you need to conquer your class in Indy.



Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


----------



## TheDavel

I know you're still dialing everything in, but how'd the brax/audio frog stuff end up sounding?


----------



## Coppertone

^^^. I'm also curious as to how you felt that combo was.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

Steve, what was your sub score I gave you? 

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


----------



## captainobvious

TheDavel said:


> I know you're still dialing everything in, but how'd the brax/audio frog stuff end up sounding?



Well, that combined with the tune I put on it combined for my highest tonality scoring I've received and I was pretty happy with the tune. I only got about 2 hours into it, but it was pretty solid I felt. It still needed a couple of little tweaks but it was very close.

The subs performed excellent. Plenty of low end extension and output. They are very clean and do a great job.

As for the Brax amps- tons of power. They are on absolute minimum gain and I have plenty of volume available. My dsp still has 10db of output headroom that I didn't even get into. I think Julian got it to a point where he wanted a little more so I'll adjust the dsp output, but yeah- those amps are pretty crazy.


----------



## captainobvious

AVIDEDTR said:


> Steve, what was your sub score I gave you?
> 
> Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk




Sub score (Iasca) was 18.5 

Overall tonality was 91.5


----------



## AVIDEDTR

Did I give you the same?

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


----------



## captainobvious

AVIDEDTR said:


> Did I give you the same?
> 
> Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk



Sorry, yes I meant that was your.


Larry's scoring of tonality was a few points lower overall but he had remarks of excellent tonality.


----------



## BowDown

captainobvious said:


> Sub score (Iasca) was 18.5
> 
> Overall tonality was 91.5


How did you get a .5 in IASCA? lol


----------



## captainobvious

That was for the (Iasca style) money round. Julian's rules


----------



## LBaudio

congrats Steve!


----------



## cmusic

Congrats Steve, and can I get a demo listen of your car on Saturday of Finals next month?


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks guys.

Car is always open for demo's- assuming I don't have a judge in it or waiting to get in


----------



## benny z

come to illinois to demo it sunday!


----------



## chefhow

Its ok I guess. ;-)


----------



## ErinH

really, really wish I could hear this soon(er rather than later). 'til next Spring, my bro!


----------



## #1BigMike

Thats great Steve... I can not wait to hear this beast next weekend...


----------



## captainobvious

chefhow said:


> Its ok I guess. ;-)


:laugh: Yeah, it's getting there...



benny z said:


> come to illinois to demo it sunday!


Wish I could have Ben- had too much going on and already had some plans to head to VA.



ErinH said:


> really, really wish I could hear this soon(er rather than later). 'til next Spring, my bro!


Yeah I'm bummed you won't be making NC or finals. Priorities man- priorities!!!! 



#1BigMike said:


> Thats great Steve... I can not wait to hear this beast next weekend...



And same for your awesome beetle as well! It's going to be a tough run competing with you AND Bill at finals this year.  Not to mention the other ridiculously good cars.


----------



## captainobvious

AVIDEDTR said:


> Steve, it was a pleasure for me to judge your car this past weekends money round.
> 
> I wish you best of luck at finals and I hope my feedback provides what you need to conquer your class in Indy.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk



Sorry- somehow missed this.

Thanks again for the valuable feedback. It will be difficult to make the podium again this year with so much excellent competition but I'll do my best again and see what happens. Win or lose- I'm looking forward to having a good time, getting to hear some excellent vehicles and catch up with friends. That's what it's all about


----------



## AVIDEDTR

Get Scott Welch to give it a listen. 



Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


----------



## captainobvious

Yep will do. I'll see him this weekend I think. If not, then Thursday before finals I will.


----------



## Notloudenuf

Your car sounded amazing today. Thanks for reminding me again why I like car audio!

If you have a chance to hear this you absolutely have to.


----------



## TheDavel

Notloudenuf said:


> Your car sounded amazing today. Thanks for reminding me again why I like car audio!
> 
> If you have a chance to hear this you absolutely have to.


His car always make me want to tune mine and get better at this whole science of sound thing!


----------



## AVIDEDTR

Hybrid Results??? 

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Black Rain

Looking over the new modifications you have made to your ride and they are astounding. Looks like you are running AF 12s now in the back with new Matrix amps....awesome. Who did you get to do the amp and sub build or did you do it yourself? I know that your fabrication skills have excelled but was curious. Also, what new mods did you do to the front stage, if any?


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks guys! Good to see you again Kendal





Black Rain said:


> Looking over the new modifications you have made to your ride and they are astounding. Looks like you are running AF 12s now in the back with new Matrix amps....awesome. Who did you get to do the amp and sub build or did you do it yourself? I know that your fabrication skills have excelled but was curious. Also, what new mods did you do to the front stage, if any?



The fella above Dave (TheDavel) did the trunk fabrication work. I did the work up front (speakers/installation), molded the dsp controller and did the source unit piece, did the wiring and the tune. Dave did an outstanding job.

Mods to the front stage include a different mid and locations/aiming of the mid and tweeter. I think it works extremely well.


----------



## Black Rain

Well Dave did an exceptional job on the amp/sub build. I look forward to hearing this new setup when I get back into the States. I wish you the best at finals.


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks buddy


----------



## knifedag007

Nice progression from 1st car to 2nd.
I read both builds, Nice work


----------



## captainobvious

knifedag007 said:


> Nice progression from 1st car to 2nd.
> I read both builds, Nice work



Thanks for that.

It's all a learning process. I'm slowly getting there, but still have much to learn.


----------



## captainobvious

Mazdaspeed- now powered by Brax Matrix. 


Here are some updated pictures of the trunk. Excuse any dust...


----------



## Coppertone

You need to grace us with photos of what's underneath her skirt lol.


----------



## cmusic

Nice trunk!! Are those MX or NOX amps? I had a X2400 back in 2003-2004 and up to this point it was the best amp I ever owned. 

Speaking of dust on your install, back in 1997 my first IASCA event of the year was held at a grass/dirt lot next to the shop hosting the show. My car was super clean inside and out. As I was instructed where the park, the head judge was asking everyone to have their doors and trunks open to display their systems to other competitors and spectators. It was in March and was moderately windy. Near the end of the day the same head judge judges me for install. I get second in my class, loosing by 3 points. I get my scoresheet and see the judge knocked off 5 points for having a dusty interior. I confront him about he being the one asking for all competitors to have their vehicles open on a grass/dirt lot. "I just go by what the rules say, and the rules say the competitor has to have all areas of the vehicle that will be judged clean." he says. That day I figure out that some judges will knock points off for anything they want just because they can.


----------



## Coppertone

^^^. Wow now that guy would have made a great drill sergeant as that's all I used to hear.


----------



## benny z

Beautiful trunk!


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks gents


----------



## JayinMI

This is a fair portion of why I'm driving down for Finals. lol
TheDavel ... you going to be there?

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> This is a fair portion of why I'm driving down for Finals. lol
> TheDavel ... you going to be there?
> 
> Jay



Thanks brother. Will be good to see you. I spent hours on in this weekend further tuning to dial it in. This is without a doubt the best the car has ever sounded.


----------



## Black Rain

Steve, I wish you the best of success at Finals. Hope all these mods true payoff in the lanes. Hope to hear it before the next changes take affect.


----------



## TheDavel

JayinMI said:


> This is a fair portion of why I'm driving down for Finals. lol
> TheDavel ... you going to be there?
> 
> Jay


It's currently not in the forecast, but the weather is unpredictable this time of year


----------



## BlackHHR

Steve-o, could you call me tomorrow when you get a change. Like to go over some logistics with you.


----------



## captainobvious

Black Rain said:


> Steve, I wish you the best of success at Finals. Hope all these mods true payoff in the lanes. Hope to hear it before the next changes take affect.


Thanks Juan! I'll give it my best 



BlackHHR said:


> Steve-o, could you call me tomorrow when you get a change. Like to go over some logistics with you.


No problem brother- will do.


----------



## NCspecV81

Nice I have a white onelephant. I rmember seeing your posts on msf with the zeds.


----------



## captainobvious

NCspecV81 said:


> Nice I have a white onelephant. I rmember seeing your posts on msf with the zeds.


Yeah it's come a long way over the last 2 years. It's sounding pretty killer right now. 

You should try to get out ot one of the North Carolina SQ get together's that Bertholomey hosts. BBQ, nice cars, good sound systems and awesome people. I make it down typically for at least one each year. He has traditionally done one in the spring and one in the fall.


----------



## captainobvious

Ready for finals. I'm pretty excited both about how the car is sounding and for the event in general- to get to spend some time with friends, geeking out over our hobby and hearing some world class cars. If you make it to Louisville, be sure to swing by and say hello and ask for a demo.


-Steve


----------



## #1BigMike

:afro: Hell yeah bro... :afro:


----------



## JayinMI

How did you do?

I was about to leave, stopped to say bye to Linda, and ended up talking to a guy for about 2 hours. I ended up rolling out of the parking lot around 5:30 and got home a little after midnight. 

I wish I didn't have sinus issues every time I got to a stereo event. Car sounded very good (tho I really like the dome mids you used to have...lol) and even with a plugged ear the staging was well focused.

The new install looks killer.

I'm really going to have to make a PA show this upcoming season...ever make it to western PA? I forget how wide that state is.

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks Jay- was great to see you again too.

Ended up getting 1st place in Iasca Amateur 3x TKE event.

Also got:

Pennsylvania State Champ- Meca Modex
National Points Champ- Meca Modex
National Points Champ- Iasca Amateur
Meca SQL SPIRIT award - really jazzed up about this one.


Thanks !


----------



## SkizeR

congrats on the awards and finishes steve. im pretty bummed that i waited till it was to late for me to get a demo. i heard it was sounding really good. but oh well. thats what i get for procrastinating lol


----------



## captainobvious

SkizeR said:


> congrats on the awards and finishes steve. im pretty bummed that i waited till it was to late for me to get a demo. i heard it was sounding really good. but oh well. thats what i get for procrastinating lol



No problem buddy- you'll get plenty of chances next season I'm sure!


----------



## SkizeR

captainobvious said:


> No problem buddy- you'll get plenty of chances next season I'm sure!


i definitely will be making it to more shows now that i have a car to compete with


----------



## Black Rain

Steve, congrats on your success at Finals. Hope the 2017 season brings just as much.


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks Juan!


----------



## benny z

i loved your car, steve! i think you already know that tho.


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks buddy and congrats on the successes!


----------



## robolop

Congrats on your wins at finals. dude.


----------



## captainobvious

Thank you, sir!


----------



## BigAl205

You got a nice looking back end, Steve!


And congrats on finals.


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks Al


----------



## NCspecV81

Hey man, I'm posting here simply b/c I can't find your post about your p99rs giving you noise issues. I've been fumbling over the cause of my noise since last Saturday and I ran across your thread yesterday here about having a bad harness. Well sure as shat, I also have a loose ground causing scratching and bad alternator whine. If I would have read your post last weekend it would have saved me major grief lol. I tore my car apart, bought 3 different GLI's, used 3 different headunits, thought my amp was bad and was contemplating another amp, and alls it was I had to do was read your post and test my power/ground harness on my p99rs.


----------



## captainobvious

NCspecV81 said:


> Hey man, I'm posting here simply b/c I can't find your post about your p99rs giving you noise issues. I've been fumbling over the cause of my noise since last Saturday and I ran across your thread yesterday here about having a bad harness. Well sure as shat, I also have a loose ground causing scratching and bad alternator whine. If I would have read your post last weekend it would have saved me major grief lol. I tore my car apart, bought 3 different GLI's, used 3 different headunits, thought my amp was bad and was contemplating another amp, and alls it was I had to do was read your post and test my power/ground harness on my p99rs.



Oh man...sorry to hear that. Noise issues can e extremely frustrating, especially when you feel like you've done everything properly to avoid them. I'm glad to hear you figured it out though!


----------



## NCspecV81

were you able to save the other harness btw?


----------



## captainobvious

NCspecV81 said:


> were you able to save the other harness btw?


In mine I had two issues- the first was the ground wire did not have a good solid contact in the harness. The second was that on the RCA output harness, the wires looked like they were scored lightly by a razor blade or sharp metal fairly close to the plastic harness connector. I went ahead and just replaced both the main wiring harness and the RCA output harness with new pieces direct from Pioneer and no more issue. I should note that that particular unit was used so I wouldn't expect issues like that from a new one. I've had 2 others since and no issues there either


----------



## strakele

Hey Steve just wanted to say the car and install both look fantastic and I'm sure it sounds even better. Hope I get to hear it some day after all these years!


----------



## captainobvious

Yeah, it's been too long buddy! We haven't seen you guys in forever. Hope you're both doing well and hopefully we can hookup for a big GTG soon.

Jason is doing his in April this year...not sure if it's feasible for you guys to make that but I'll be driving down for it.


----------



## Elgrosso

captainobvious said:


> Why are high QTS drivers always recommended as the best for an IB application? Can low QTS bass/midbass drivers be used effectively in infinite baffle installations? If so, what characteristics must they have? Is it simply a matter of running out of xmax before they achieve a desired SPL because of suspension compliance? In trying to select a driver or two for testing in my own installation, I've tried to simulate the differences to see what happens.
> 
> I know that alot of this info has been covered in one way or another in different threads, but I'm trying to understand it in my application and in theory so I can make more informed decisions down the road as well. I'd like to post what I'm seeing and what I *think* is happening, and then hopefully some of you guys with more knowledge than me will be willing to chime in to correct my mistakes or point out some things I may be missing/haven't considered.
> This mainly came about because of my curiosity with pro audio drivers and trying to benefit from the high sensitivity.
> 
> Let's look at 3 different drivers:
> 
> 
> A proaudio woofer. Low QTS, high sensitivity
> B&C 10NW64
> QTS 0.26
> QMS 4.50
> QES 0.27
> VAS 26.9L
> FS 50 hz
> Le .47
> xmax 8mm one way
> SPL 96db
> 
> A low Qts/ Low FS driver
> Scanspeak Revelator 22W8857T-00
> QTS 0.30
> QMS 4.90
> QES 0.32
> VAS 87.7
> FS 23Hz
> Le 0.35
> xmax 9mm one way
> SPL 86db
> 
> A high QTS driver
> JL Audio ZR800
> QTS 0.662
> QMS 11.667
> QES 0.702
> VAS 22.29
> FS 46.27
> xmax 9mm one way
> SPL 87db
> 
> 
> Let's model these and start with the baselines.
> Here is the 1Watt/1Meter SPL graph of each of the three drivers in their .707 Q modeled sealed enclosures:
> YELLOW = Scanspeak 22W
> GREEN = B&C
> BLUE = JL ZR
> 
> 
> Here is the F3 rolloff graph for each of these drivers in their .707 Q sealed enclosures:
> 
> 
> 
> And their 1W/1M cone excursion (in mm) in their .707Q sealed enclosures...
> 
> 
> 
> What I see off the bat without changing the enclosures to simulate IB, and without adding additional power to the equation is that the JL and Scanspeak roll off at a much lower frequency (lower FS) and the B&C has considerably more output above about 120hz due to the higher sensitivity. Cone excursion is not a factor even without a filter at this low power.
> 
> Now lets increase the enclosure size to 40 cubic feet to simulate infinite baffle for these drivers.
> 
> SPL:
> 
> 
> 
> F3:
> 
> 
> 
> Simulating 40 cubic feet of airspace makes the drivers roll off at a much slower rate allowing for more low frequency extension, however it removes the acoustic spring that a sealed box provides which would help to limit excursion. This means that the driver is relying on its motor and the stiffness of it's suspension to control excursion.
> 
> So what happens then if I add some power to the equation?
> 
> Here's the cone excursion at 50 watts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here it is at 100 watts:
> 
> 
> 
> The red line is at 9mm xmax. In this IB simulation with no filters applied, here is how it models:
> 
> At 50 watts, the JL reaches xmax first at about 44hz. The Scan follows next at about 38hz at and the B&C runs out at about 22hz.
> 
> At 100 watts, the JL hits xmax at about 59hz, the Scan at 52hz and the B&C at 33hz.
> 
> Of course once you apply crossover filters, this changes a bit...
> 
> If I apply a 60hz 24db (LR) high pass filter on each, here's how it shakes out:
> 
> The JL will reach xmax at 380 watts input power, however it's rated for 125 watts continuous.
> The Scanspeak will reach xmax at about 560 watts input power, however it's rated for 170 continuous.
> The B&C will reach xmax at 1000 watts input power, however it's power rating is 300 watts continuous.
> 
> Each of these are modeled at their continuous power handling in these graphs:
> 
> SPL:
> 
> 
> 
> Cone Excursion:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know what you're thinking, yeah the B&C is a larger 10" driver and has better thermal properties- very true. To be more fair, here is a look at some B&C pro audio 8" competition:
> 
> In RED is the B&C 8BG51. It has 250 watts continuous power handling, and is rated for 6.5mm xmax.
> 
> In WHITE is the B&C 8NDL51. It has 200 watts continuous power handling and 7mm xmax.
> 
> In ORANGE is the B&C 8MDN51. It has 200 watts continuous power handling and 6mm of xmax.
> 
> SPL:
> 
> 
> 
> Cone Excursion:


If only I spent a more time in here... I remember your thread that I read at time!
So yeah I have the exact same question, too bad some pics are gone.
But I see at that time you finally went for the JL, but didn't see the reasons why, I read many pages but maybe missed it.

As an illustration for me:


All in a small box of 8 liters, just to compare here, max power and minimal HP possible before excursion limits:
blue = 8mbx51 at 200W
green = 10NW64 at 375W (Q around 0.7)
orange = 10MWNd at 375W (Q around 0.5)
Not much gain, only 3 to 4db with the 10s at 80Hz, but the good thing is that they’re half their excursion limit at 80Hz! When the 8 is at max.
That gives some room, with a slightly bigger box or different filters etc.


And:


subwoofery said:


> Again, better explanation from someone more knowledgeable than me (who's first language isn't French like myself ):
> 
> 
> Then if you want to read more about it:
> 
> 
> Got it now?
> 
> Kelvin


What, subwoofery is french? 
Very good readings on following posts (#83) thanks!


----------



## captainobvious

Elgrosso said:


> If only I spent a more time in here... I remember your thread that I read at time!
> So yeah I have the exact same question, too bad some pics are gone.
> But I see at that time you finally went for the JL, but didn't see the reasons why, I read many pages but maybe missed it.
> 
> ...
> 
> All in a small box of 8 liters, just to compare here, max power and minimal HP possible before excursion limits:
> blue = 8mbx51 at 200W
> green = 10NW64 at 375W (Q around 0.7)
> orange = 10MWNd at 375W (Q around 0.5)
> Not much gain, only 3 to 4db with the 10s at 80Hz, but the good thing is that they’re half their excursion limit at 80Hz! When the 8 is at max.
> That gives some room, with a slightly bigger box or different filters etc.



Hey bud! 


I ended up going with the JL because providing the sealed airspace was still a challenge for me with a driver of that size in the kicks of a manual transmission, compact car and I decided to vent it to the exterior. 

Yeah I agree, if you can fit the 10's I would definitely do that. You're already playing the midbass into it's FS where distortion is highest and then if you're pushing the limits of xmax you may have some audible mechanical noise. 

Are you sure you don't have the colors mixed up for the 10NW64 and the 10MWnd? The orange one exhibits behavior of a higher Q than the green one in that graph. (slight peak, extended response and sharper roll off angle). Or are you saying that the Q you listed is the T/S params measured Qts free air?
Looks like the orange one is in a box that is raising its qtc about the .71 mark and the green has a more natural roll off for a Qtc closer to .71



Cheers,


Steve


----------



## captainobvious

That should read that the orange one looks like it's enclosure volume is raising its Q ABOVE the .71 mark.

Edit is not working (nor is quoting- I had to do it manually).


----------



## Elgrosso

captainobvious said:


> Hey bud!
> 
> 
> I ended up going with the JL because providing the sealed airspace was still a challenge for me with a driver of that size in the kicks of a manual transmission, compact car and I decided to vent it to the exterior.
> 
> Yeah I agree, if you can fit the 10's I would definitely do that. You're already playing the midbass into it's FS where distortion is highest and then if you're pushing the limits of xmax you may have some audible mechanical noise.
> 
> Are you sure you don't have the colors mixed up for the 10NW64 and the 10MWnd? The orange one exhibits behavior of a higher Q than the green one in that graph. (slight peak, extended response and sharper roll off angle). Or are you saying that the Q you listed is the T/S params measured Qts free air?
> Looks like the orange one is in a box that is raising its qtc about the .71 mark and the green has a more natural roll off for a Qtc closer to .71
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> Steve


Oh yeah my bad it's a typo! Colors are right but Q are inverted you're right.
I’ll probably use bigger box and after processing Q will change a lot so I focused on the headroom in the 60-120hz area, and I like the little bump provided by the 10MWnd here.
And being 4 ohms, it will also have more headroom, can accept a little more watts on peaks of the 750W available from the JLhd. 
In extreme comparison, with all available & acceptable power before excursions limit, the 10MWnd can have +6db.
But in more moderate use both 10s look very close.
And volume change itself doesn't have a dramatic effect, between 8-14liters (reasonable max I can find) it's around 1db variation here and there.
Of course all this might change with real T/S, I'll do that this week end.

Also tested the JL quickly, in both cases 8L or IB, he's still below, even with a little more power than spec (and he's bigger/harder to fit).
But I will try more drivers soon. 

Thanks Steve!


----------



## subwoofery

Elgrosso said:


> What, subwoofery is french?
> Very good readings on following posts (#83) thanks!


Heh... Yes I'm french, live in Tahiti and have chinese origin  

Kelvin


----------



## Elgrosso

subwoofery said:


> Heh... Yes I'm french, live in Tahiti and have chinese origin
> 
> Kelvin


That's seems an ok cocktail for this century 

(Was just surprised because I didn't see much more of my compadres here)


----------

