# How much to tune a system?!?!



## uglypedro (May 2, 2008)

Finding an installer that actually knows how to turn a system isnt easy. Oh sure, if asked, most say, "sure, I can turn your system." Except they don't have access to an RTA, if they even know what one is. Really, how is it a dumbass like me knows more about car audio then _more then a couple_ shop owners I've met. Why do they smile and nod when I say I'm driving my front stage active, then have to explain 3 or 4 times why I don't have seperate crossovers!
Obviously, not every shop is run by knuckleheads, but it really seams finding a good shop next to impossible. I realize 75% of their costumers just want a new HU, maybe some 2 way speakers thrown in the door, and sometimes even an amp.

I guess I don't understand at least trying to understand everything you can about your chosen profession. I'm not saying I'm some audio wiz....that's why I want someone to tune my system, I'd even pay extra if I could watch and ask questions.

Here in Sacramento a well known place is Paradyme. I'm sure they know what they're doing, but.....ready for this? 

$120 hr/ 3 hour min to tune a system!!! Thats $360!!! Does anyone else think that's alittle much? I would think about half that much is reasonable. Even $200, maybe alittle more. 
But $360?!?!
Anyone within an hour or so of Sacramento that could do the job? Or point me toward a shop that could?

-Uglypedro
(steve)


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## Austin (Mar 12, 2009)

I think that is a bit much. But it also depends on your system. Is your front stage two way or three way? Three way would be much more because it is tougher to tune.


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

I've seen competition level tuning done on the high end at about 200+ dollars an hour. I've also seen the same level of tuning done for some beer and a pack of crunchy tacos.

If you have the ability to save various tunings on your processor, a good way to get a tune is to go to car audio get togethers or comps and demo your system. It is the equivalent of popping the engine cover on an old school VW bug. Sooner or later, a group will gather and opinions will be thrown, arguments will ensue and tinkering will commence. It is the nature of the SQ Beast.


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## pat_smith1969 (Feb 17, 2010)

when I first got into car audio several installers in the area (mid 90's) swore up and down that all a tweeter did was go "tttsssssss" and that any old tweeter would work. 

Of course at the time Bobby Brown was having "My Perogative", UB40 was singing about some Red Red Wine, and Bobby Mcphearon was telling us to "Don't worry, Be Happy". So perhaps at that time all they did was go "ttttssssss". 

They had no answer for me when I asked them if it sounded the same if a drummer hit a tophat, or if he hit a triangle.


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## uglypedro (May 2, 2008)

I don't think it made a difference, 3 way or 2, it was "$120 per hour with a three hour min". He "seemed" like he really knew his ****, but for $360?......maybe it comes with a happy ending?


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

uglypedro said:


> I don't think it made a difference, 3 way or 2, it was "$120 per hour with a three hour min". He "seemed" like he really knew his ****, but for $360?......maybe it comes with a happy ending?


I sure hope so, i'd ask to make sure  tell him, no happy ending, no go. but really...with google and a credit card...you can learn anything


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## deesz (Feb 1, 2010)

matbe you should go there right this min. theres a meca show as we speak and you could talk to guys and show what you have and they tell you what to improve. tuning is half the fun and if your into this and its your car you have all the time in the world to sit and play with everything. your willing to pay 200 for a couple of hours well why not pay yourself. you dont have to have an rta to tune yes to get best results but you dont have to have one.


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## OGJordan (Sep 26, 2006)

What everyone HAS to understand is that you are NOT the norm. The amount of people who really car about a high quality sounding setup are outnumbered at least 10,000 to 1 by people who don't know or care; they just want to know if their iPod will work with their new deck.


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## deesz (Feb 1, 2010)

but if he isnt the norm why not just buy an rta? you can find them for not to much more than the price of paying someone to tune..


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

deesz said:


> ...why not just buy an rta? you can find them for not to much more than the price of paying someone to tune..


Zackly!

Just because someone tunes your car w/ an RTA doesn't mean they'll measure accurately, or that they'll tune it to your liking. IMO, it makes more sense (and cents) to invest the time and money and do it yourself.


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## uglypedro (May 2, 2008)

So, right after my last post I left to run some errends and ended up driving past Paradyme and sure enough, they were having a stereo contest in the parking lot! Of course, I arrived just after they handed out the trophies and everyone was packing up and leaving. I made an attempt to talk to the guy that won for SQ, but he seemed in a hurry and split, as did everyone else. Damnit! If only I'd known this morning! I told the guy running the show he needs to advertise and he said he did.....at DIYMA.com!! Where the hell was I?

I need new Karma.....


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## uglypedro (May 2, 2008)

Actually, I've been keeping an eye out for a used RTA for the last month or so. Going rate seems to be around $200 on fleabay.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

uglypedro said:


> Actually, I've been keeping an eye out for a used RTA for the last month or so. Going rate seems to be around $200 on fleabay.


You can put a PC based setup together for less than $100 if you have a laptop.

Search around the site. There's info.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-tutorials/41223-speaker-aiming-tips-cmusic.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-tutorials/33740-simple-way-tune-courtesy-cmusic.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...888-help-my-soundstage-ate-my-windshield.html


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## Lucky_713 (May 23, 2020)

uglypedro said:


> Finding an installer that actually knows how to turn a system isnt easy. Oh sure, if asked, most say, "sure, I can turn your system." Except they don't have access to an RTA, if they even know what one is. Really, how is it a dumbass like me knows more about car audio then _more then a couple_ shop owners I've met. Why do they smile and nod when I say I'm driving my front stage active, then have to explain 3 or 4 times why I don't have seperate crossovers!
> Obviously, not every shop is run by knuckleheads, but it really seams finding a good shop next to impossible. I realize 75% of their costumers just want a new HU, maybe some 2 way speakers thrown in the door, and sometimes even an amp.
> 
> I guess I don't understand at least trying to understand everything you can about your chosen profession. I'm not saying I'm some audio wiz....that's why I want someone to tune my system, I'd even pay extra if I could watch and ask questions.
> ...


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## Lucky_713 (May 23, 2020)

Come to Houston I aint no Profesional don't even got a shop but danm if tats how much they charge im switching professions


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

I firmly believe that individuals with expertise in any field should be well paid for their work. I am in the process of having a new system put together for my car as well. I do think that $360 for 3 hours worth of work is a bit much. If you check that hourly rate against other professions, it's way up there; and that's even compared to people who have huge overhead.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

so let me get this straight, spending $2000 and up for a nice music system is fine but spending $300-$350 to maximize it is BS and ripping people off. thats totally absurd IMO. its like me saying im not going to spend the money on supreme gas cause its an extra dollar, need to save that dollar and put regular gas in my GT3 and Twin Turbo knowing its not going to perform at its maximum level


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## DiamondFanatic (Dec 26, 2007)

Only so many people have been really far down the rabbit hole in car audio... shops bread and butter is CarPlay upgrades, swapping blown speakers, and maybe doing some subs. $120 and hour in CA doesn’t seem out of line given the hourly rate at my Dodge dealer is over $100 at this point.

It’s also great that this thread is from 2010 😂


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

If your "profession" doesn't require a (basic) degree your service is probably not worth more than 25 hr.


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## DiamondFanatic (Dec 26, 2007)

Gump_Runner said:


> If your "profession" doesn't require a (basic) degree your service is probably not worth more than 25 hr.


Couldn’t disagree with this more.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Gump_Runner said:


> If your "profession" doesn't require a (basic) degree your service is probably not worth more than 25 hr.


That's bogus. Craftsmen and tradesmen like plumbers, cabinet makers, etc. don't need degrees to master their skills.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Gump_Runner said:


> If your "profession" doesn't require a (basic) degree your service is probably not worth more than 25 hr.


thats BS/absurd and arrogant. you don't have to have a PHD or 10 years of college to charge for your profession and time. many people/companies invest in training, classes, etc to better the "average" worker and if they do there job properly and efficiently they are worth whatever one is willing to spend


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

I don't think $120/hr is excessive if the tuner actually knows what they are doing, and can lay down a really good sounding tune. The problem is, many shops will claim to know how to tune, but have very elementary skills. I do think the first hour should be much less since all it involves is getting gains leveled correctly, measuring for TA, resetting headunit settings to flat, off, zero, etc. After that though, more legit skill and knowledge are required that would justify $120.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I personally think that $120 is a bit much for a "car audio tech", but at the same time, there is an easy solution for those that don't want to pay it.... Learn to do it yourself.  For the most part, it's not rocket science - just like anything else (plumbing, electrical work, car mechanical repairs, etc), it just takes time, some basic equipment and the desire to learn.

Unfortunately, what someone does and what they get paid don't always line up. For example, teachers and first-responders make squat and "professional sports figures" make millions. Go figure....


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Porsche said:


> thats BS/absurd and arrogant. you don't have to have a PHD or 10 years of college to charge for your profession and time. many people/companies invest in training, classes, etc to better the "average" worker and if they do there job properly and efficiently they are worth whatever one is willing to spend


Who said anything about a PHD or "charging for your profession"? Your "average worker", and "do their job properly" is semantics.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

gijoe said:


> That's bogus. Craftsmen and tradesmen like plumbers, cabinet makers, etc. don't need degrees to master their skills.


See the word "probably". The market dictates those few exceptions.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Porsche said:


> so let me get this straight, spending $2000 and up for a nice music system is fine but spending $300-$350 to maximize it is BS and ripping people off. thats totally absurd IMO. its like me saying im not going to spend the money on supreme gas cause its an extra dollar, need to save that dollar and put regular gas in my GT3 and Twin Turbo knowing its not going to perform at its maximum level


My thoughts exactly. This place continues to blow my mind. The one thing that will make the biggest difference once everything is said and done and they think a small fraction of what they paid for the gear is too much.. funny

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Gump_Runner said:


> If your "profession" doesn't require a (basic) degree your service is probably not worth more than 25 hr.


Congratulations, you just posted the dumbest thing ive seen on here this week. Now THAT, is an impressive feat.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

I was going to make a detailed post about tuning, pricing, and a shops cost of operation, but then I remembered that it's not worth the effort.. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> My thoughts exactly. This place continues to blow my mind. The one thing that will make the biggest difference once everything is said and done and they think a small fraction of what they paid for the gear is too much.. funny
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk





SkizeR said:


> I was going to make a detailed post about tuning, pricing, and a shops cost of operation, but then I remembered that it's not worth the effort..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk





SkizeR said:


> Congratulations, you just posted the dumbest thing ive seen on here this week. Now THAT, is an impressive feat.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Calm down snowflake. There are a (very) few that will still pay your con-man prices/services.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Gump_Runner said:


> Calm down snowflake. There are a (very) few that will still pay your con-man prices/services.


Lol. Id love to hear your car 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I've spent only hundreds on my gear (I can't afford the high tier stuff ), but I also lack tuning skills beyond wiring everything up and getting it to turn on. I'd be willing to offer an indecent proposal to someone that can tune it. 

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

######


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## blammo585 (Feb 1, 2020)

I think the point about spending thousands on gear is valid. If you spend thousands on equipment, what's another $300 or $400 for proper tuning? However, the less you spend on your equipment I think the less it makes sense to spend a lot on the tune.

I just put some $28 component speakers in my Beetle this morning with a $72 Toro 4 channel amp and my 20 year old Kicker Solobaric sub. It wouldn't make sense to pay for an expensive tune.

I once paid $300 for an extended 3 year warranty on a $2500 Toshiba 50" HDTV in the early days of HDTVs. Now that TVs aren't that expensive I would not spring for an extra warranty unless it was really cheap.

Fortunately for me I'm satisfied with turning on a high pass and low pass filter, setting the gains, and calling it a day. In most vehicles I've messed with that's been good enough. My son's Lancer is the exception.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

I was kind of hoping this thread wouldn't lead to a mini-brawl....hahaha....but maybe it's time for a reality check....I had this from a project last year so I'll post it....no need to go through each profession unless you're interested, but there are only 2 professions that earn more than the hourly rate asked of the OP (_they are highlighted_)....information was current as of last year...have a great weekend my friends!


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Knobby Digital said:


> Zackly!
> 
> Just because someone tunes your car w/ an RTA doesn't mean they'll measure accurately, or that they'll tune it to your liking. IMO, it makes more sense (and cents) to invest the time and money and do it yourself.


Not sure what that video is but the link is dead...just a quick fyi


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

I just noticed this error in the image....my ex was a nagger who got paid more than that....lmao....the profession is highlighted here....


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

IRONY:

Attacking an individual that doesn't see the value in a labor rate to perform a specific function on a website that promotes a do-it-yourself mentality. Like....it's literally in the name.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Def!ant said:


> IRONY:
> 
> Attacking an individual that doesn't see the value in a labor rate to perform a specific function on a website that promotes a do-it-yourself mentality. Like....it's literally in the name.


Ummm... the real irony is spending grands on a system then devaluing the cost of tuning it. After all, DIYMA was originally founded on using raw drivers and other gear of lesser cost vs the big names and especially aristocratic brands because the most important aspect is..... wait for it.... tuning! 

That's not to say anyone using such high tiers is snobbish, but surely at that cost there's nothing debatable about getting the best out of it. However, that same route should be given to anything installed regardless of cost. Surely, you can't expect to cross the finish line when shooting yourself in the foot is part of the process?

So, if you can't or refuse to afford someone's skillset, learn it yourself and don't rag on others that choose to pay. 

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

There's a difference between a shop charging $120 an hour for tuning, and that shop owner making a salary of $250k per year. You are paying what the shop has determined what it needs to bill to be profitable.


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## DiamondFanatic (Dec 26, 2007)

I’m assuming people in this thread recognize that a shop hourly rate or other charges for services are not equal to the employees hourly or salary pay.... but then again there is some really stupid stuff posted on here.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

I'm not sure why the debate has gone wide. I don't think anyone disagrees with _*the principle of good tuning*_. And even though this is a very old thread, I don't think this topic will ever be retired. I believe that originally the question was *how much to pay for that service*. The guy said that he was willing to pay over _*$200 *_for the labor. That is in excess of *$67 an hour*. Not enough? I can't say for sure. It is such a limited service that you can't really do significant research or comparison shopping. In a large metropolitan city, there are typically a handful of good shops. I found one place that is a 3 hour drive from me that charges significantly less than the couple of shops near me. Based on the amount of work required, I doubt they would finish in a day so I have to make the decision if spending the money on transportation and lodging is worth the difference.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

DiamondFanatic said:


> I’m assuming people in this thread recognize that a shop hourly rate or other charges for services are not equal to the employees hourly or salary pay.... but then again there is some really stupid stuff posted on here.


I agree with you and hopefully nobody is unclear on that. But that doesn't really change the equation very much because we are talking about what they charge you as the customer. Same thing as a doctor, lawyer, or many other professions. They charge you, the consumer, a given rate and then they deal with their own overhead. Most, if not all the QUALITY shops I know consist of a few guys and often they are at least, part owners. That doesn't really compare to the guy at Best Buy who's making 10 bucks an hour. But perhaps it's different in other locations; I don't know. I prefer to use a small shop where the guys are skilled rather than going to a place that sells refrigerators next to audio equipment. Again though, the question is "how much" and not "if" the work should be performed.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

its a silly debate and everyone has there opinion which is 99% BS unless they are in the same business and understand how the numbers work. there should not be a going a rate for a technician/installer/tuner, its absurd. everyone is different, have different abilities and are not equal in there skills. than you have to figure the overhead, etc

every technician at my work has a different charge/hourly rate, you have to look at what you pay an individual to get an accurate value on them to charge for.

if you have 4 technicians and ones salary is $35k, another at $40k, another at $47k and another at $51k how the hell can you charge a flat rate unless you are charging the max possible to pay for that $51k tech across the board


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## DiamondFanatic (Dec 26, 2007)

I figured I would mention it because your chart shows hourly pay...



The Italian said:


> I agree with you and hopefully nobody is unclear on that. But that doesn't really change the equation very much because we are talking about what they charge you as the customer. Same thing as a doctor, lawyer, or many other professions. They charge you, the consumer, a given rate and then they deal with their own overhead. Most, if not all the QUALITY shops I know consist of a few guys and often they are at least, part owners. That doesn't really compare to the guy at Best Buy who's making 10 bucks an hour. But perhaps it's different in other locations; I don't know. I prefer to use a small shop where the guys are skilled rather than going to a place that sells refrigerators next to audio equipment. Again though, the question is "how much" and not "if" the work should be performed.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Porsche said:


> its a silly debate and everyone has there opinion which is 99% BS unless they are in the same business and understand how the numbers work. there should not be a going a rate for a technician/installer/tuner, its absurd. everyone is different, have different abilities and are not equal in there skills. than you have to figure the overhead, etc
> 
> every technician at my work has a different charge/hourly rate, you have to look at what you pay an individual to get an accurate value on them to charge for.
> 
> if you have 4 technicians and ones salary is $35k, another at $40k, another at $47k and another at $51k how the hell can you charge a flat rate unless you are charging the max possible to pay for that $51k tech across the board


Well, you are entitled to your opinion of course. I think "every" profession should have "typical" rates. We can look at the world under the premise that we are all "unique individuals" but that's something that comforts children. It doesn't apply in business. You can run your business however you like; I'm just saying that consumers should not be expected to know each of your technicians and choose accordingly. I'm sure your faithful ones do, but any new customer will want to know how much they will have to pay without going into the bio of each employee.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

DiamondFanatic said:


> I figured I would mention it because your chart shows hourly pay...


The image is only applicable to small shops. I've never seen an independently owned shop charge $120 an hour and pay their techs $10/hour. Only my own experience as I said, but every shop I've dealt with, in multiple locations, has either been employee owned or the techs earned a pretty good cut of what the customer was charged. And I just threw it in here for a quick reference; it was never meant for this discussion in particular.


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

Bayboy said:


> Ummm... the real irony is spending grands on a system then devaluing the cost of tuning it. After all, DIYMA was originally founded on using raw drivers and other gear of lesser cost vs the big names and especially aristocratic brands because the most important aspect is..... wait for it.... tuning!
> 
> That's not to say anyone using such high tiers is snobbish, but surely at that cost there's nothing debatable about getting the best out of it. However, that same route should be given to anything installed regardless of cost. Surely, you can't expect to cross the finish line when shooting yourself in the foot is part of the process?
> 
> Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


I'm not debating the merits of the topic. It doesn't apply to me so therefore I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't reside so high on a pedestal that if someone disagrees with me I become aggressively offended & **** all over the platform. If the OP, or anyone for that matter, doesn't find paying a minimum of $360 to tune his car valuable, it doesn't chap my ass; he's entitled to his opinion just like the rest of us. His mistake isn't thinking it's too much, it's that he brought such an opinion into a rather toxic community, exacerbated by anonymity, thinking he'd find himself like minded people.

I am merely highlighting that the spirit of this forum is dead. DIYMA has become an echo chamber for those with shrines built to the Audiofrog & Helix gods in their closets, & those who challenge those ideals are swarmed with remedial behavior. I've been very consistent on this & this thread only verifies my speculations.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Porsche said:


> its a silly debate and everyone has there opinion which is 99% BS unless they are in the same business and understand how the numbers work. there should not be a going a rate for a technician/installer/tuner, its absurd. everyone is different, have different abilities and are not equal in there skills. than you have to figure the overhead, etc
> 
> every technician at my work has a different charge/hourly rate, you have to look at what you pay an individual to get an accurate value on them to charge for.
> 
> if you have 4 technicians and ones salary is $35k, another at $40k, another at $47k and another at $51k how the hell can you charge a flat rate unless you are charging the max possible to pay for that $51k tech across the board


I agree with almost everything, but I see no reason why the rate should change depending on the tech.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> I agree with almost everything, but I see no reason why the rate should change depending on the tech.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


simple, everyone has there own skill set and there own salary, therefore they should have there own rate based on there skillset. i know what works for me and its worked somewhat well for over 20 years. its all in how you structure your business and manage your business, but hey, thats my opinion

like i said earlier, if you can charge the premium for what it takes to pay your $51k tech and say that hourly rate is $135hr and you can charge that for ALL techs, even the lesser ones that only make $32500 and capable of only installing a radio and some basic speakers that more power to you and i am 100% for it


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## blammo585 (Feb 1, 2020)

I would like to hear some of these people's systems that say they need "tuning". 

The way that tuning is talked about on here it's like it's a mystic art. Unfortunately, it seems a lot of people want their car tuned properly but think they're going to be charged a lot of money and end up with a result that equals Disney's "The Emperor's New Clothes", if anyone knows what that's about.


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

blammo585 said:


> I would like to hear some of these people's systems that say they need "tuning".
> 
> The way that tuning is talked about on here it's like it's a mystic art. Unfortunately, it seems a lot of people want their car tuned properly but think they're going to be charged a lot of money and end up with a result that equals Disney's "The Emperor's New Clothes", if anyone knows what that's about.


There is no art.

It's simple economics. RTA's cost money, techs costs money, tools cost money. Tuning is a very time consuming process. The real question is, what is YOUR time worth. There are things in life that I know I COULD do; I just don't want to. That's why I am about to pay some gardener $3500 to plant some bushes around my house. I mean, I could do it, but I've got other **** I'd rather do..


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Def!ant said:


> I'm not debating the merits of the topic. It doesn't apply to me so therefore I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't reside so high on a pedestal that if someone disagrees with me I become aggressively offended & **** all over the platform. If the OP, or anyone for that matter, doesn't find paying a minimum of $360 to tune his car valuable, it doesn't chap my ass; he's entitled to his opinion just like the rest of us. His mistake isn't thinking it's too much, it's that he brought such an opinion into a rather toxic community, exacerbated by anonymity, thinking he'd find himself like minded people.
> 
> I am merely highlighting that the spirit of this forum is dead. DIYMA has become an echo chamber for those with shrines built to the Audiofrog & Helix gods in their closets, & those who challenge those ideals are swarmed with remedial behavior. I've been very consistent on this & this thread only verifies my speculations.


Oh stop with the snide ********. Seriously, you stated something that was only partially correct and just like many, have tried to twist what the place is or isn't to suit your point. 

Fact is, nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything. Do it yourself or it's whatever. But you obviously have a chip on your shoulder about certain gear or perhaps a certain person though you appear to lack the balls to say it. I own no audiofrog so this isn't about me.  I'm not offended or have any penis envy from what others own or do with their gear. I could care less if someone bought a $10,000 tweeter and shoved it up their ass.. its just not that serious. 

Sheesh

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I have a new place on FB where no one can hide their identity and every member uses the same gear. Also, any services used must be within strict cost guidelines. Come join me...


SOCIALIST AUDIO!

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Yea, well you guys keep repeating the "$120 an hour".... But this was a very old thread.
In 2020, here in Sacramento, that same place in the OP quoted me $200 an hour, and said it would likely take a couple hours.
Im sorry, but I just think $200 an hour is excessive.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> I agree with almost everything, but I see no reason why the rate should change depending on the tech.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


agreed...i look at it that if you have 4 techs making between 40 and 50k, then that reflects on the labor pool and the longevity of your employees. Bottom line is you need to factor all that into the flat rate you charge to the public. I am assuming when i go into get a hair cut and it costs $30 that not everyone cutting hair is making the same hourly rate. But i don't expect to get a discount if i get a haircut from the new person making $12 an hour. I expect that everyone in the store can provide an acceptable service.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Yea, well you guys keep repeating the "$120 an hour".... But this was a very old thread.
> In 2020, here in Sacramento, that same place in the OP quoted me $200 an hour, and said it would likely take a couple hours.
> Im sorry, but I just think $200 an hour is excessive.


Then decline the service. But they have set that as a rate they need to make to offer the service.


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

Bayboy said:


> Oh stop with the snide ********. Seriously, you stated something that was only partially correct and just like many, have tried to twist what the place is or isn't to suit your point.
> 
> Fact is, nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything. Do it yourself or it's whatever. But you obviously have a chip on your shoulder about certain gear or perhaps a certain person though you appear to lack the balls to say it. I own no audiofrog so this isn't about me.  I'm not offended or have any penis envy from what others own or do with their gear. I could care less if someone bought a $10,000 tweeter and shoved it up their ass.. its just not that serious.
> 
> ...


Yes, I can clearly see you're completely devoid of all phallic shaped desires & not channeling ones inner Karen in any way. How could I have failed to notice that in your 10 years of tenure that you alone possess the sole knowledge of the true purpose of this forum. Stupid me to assume such as place that carries the name "do it yourself" in its title wouldn't encourage & suppose ones desire to expand their skill set. 

Since you speculated, allow me to clarify, I carry no chips on my shoulders. Only in my belly & often pickled in flavor. If you want to deep dive into my physique have at it, Sport, but stick to your day job because your evaluation is about as out of touch as your delusions of you not being triggered by my comments. Regardless of how snide and/or ******** my comment may have been, it doesn't make them any less true and you're only proving my point with your remedial behavior.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Gump_Runner said:


> If your "profession" doesn't require a (basic) degree your service is probably not worth more than 25 hr.


Tell that to your mechanic next time he works on your brakes.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ckirocz28 said:


> Tell that to your mechanic next time he works on your brakes.


"I dO mY oWn BrAkEs"

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Def!ant said:


> Yes, I can clearly see you're completely devoid of all phallic shaped desires & not channeling ones inner Karen in any way. How could I have failed to notice that in your 10 years of tenure that you alone possess the sole knowledge of the true purpose of this forum. Stupid me to assume such as place that carries the name "do it yourself" in its title wouldn't encourage & suppose ones desire to expand their skill set.
> 
> Since you speculated, allow me to clarify, I carry no chips on my shoulders. Only in my belly & often pickled in flavor. If you want to deep dive into my physique have at it, Sport, but stick to your day job because your evaluation is about as out of touch as your delusions of you not being triggered by my comments. Regardless of how snide and/or ******** my comment may have been, it doesn't make them any less true and you're only proving my point with your remedial behavior.


You're welcome. 









Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Gump_Runner said:


> Who said anything about a PHD or "charging for your profession"? Your "average worker", and "do their job properly" is semantics.


Using the word semantics improperly is a sign of arrogance. It does not mean "What you said is wrong because I'm properly educated and you're not". It means this:








Definition of SEMANTICS


the study of meanings:; the historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words or forms viewed as factors in linguistic development; semiotics… See the full definition




www.merriam-webster.com


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> "I dO mY oWn BrAkEs"
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Hey! I'm on your side of this argument! I think.


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

ckirocz28 said:


> Using the word semantics improperly is a sign of arrogance. It does not mean "What you said is wrong because I'm properly educated and you're not". It means this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"the historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words or forms viewed as factors in linguistic development"

I've always thought "semantics" was how a person interpreted the meaning of a word or phrases...i.e. Janitor vs Custodial Engineer. 

I think I was correct.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ckirocz28 said:


> Hey! I'm on your side of this argument! I think.


It was sarcasm lol

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

miniSQ said:


> Then decline the service. But they have set that as a rate they need to make to offer the service.


I've had to decline. But I still find it hard to believe that at $200 an hour, they are getting so much business that it would take them 4-6 weeks to "squeeze me in". I have to believe they would just rather do something else to make money, rather than tune stereo systems.... Or, if you haven't already spent a couple grand having them put in a big system for you.


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

If you didn't know how to tune and didn't want to take the time to learn, $350 for a good tune would be the best bargain in the whole system and you'd be thanking that guy for years.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Patriot83 said:


> If you didn't know how to tune and didn't want to take the time to learn, $350 for a good tune would be the best bargain in the whole system and you'd be thanking that guy for years.


Not sure of you were replying to me directly.... But for some people's systems that are all out of whack, this could be totally true. 
But I have quite a bit of control over my system as it is, and I am not expecting a huge difference. Just tame down the cabin gain, and smooth the rest out a little, because that's all it needs. I've already seen my frequency response graph, and it's really not bad. Honestly, I think I could still tweak it even a little better, without a DSP.... But since I have one sitting on my dresser already, I'm going to go on and give it a shot.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Def!ant said:


> "the historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words or forms viewed as factors in linguistic development"
> 
> I've always thought "semantics" was how a person interpreted the meaning of a word or phrases...i.e. Janitor vs Custodial Engineer.
> 
> I think I was correct.


Are you also Gump_Runner?
Definitions don't change when someone disagrees with you, or when you think you're the smarter person.
The market value of car audio tuning services is not determined by the existence of a curriculum that teaches this skill and hands out diplomas, degrees, or doctorates for it. No such program exists, tuning is an acquired skill. The market value of tuning is determined by the amount of time required for tuning, the amount of skill required, and the time and effort such a service saves the customer. If a customer/enthusiast wants to learn to tune their own system, on their own, that's free.


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Not sure of you were replying to me directly.... But for some people's systems that are all out of whack, this could be totally true.
> But I have quite a bit of control over my system as it is, and I am not expecting a huge difference. Just tame down the cabin gain, and smooth the rest out a little, because that's all it needs. I've already seen my frequency response graph, and it's really not bad. Honestly, I think I could still tweak it even a little better, without a DSP.... But since I have one sitting on my dresser already, I'm going to go on and give it a shot.


No I wasn't. Just saying $350 seems good to me.


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

ckirocz28 said:


> Are you also Gump_Runner?
> Definitions don't change when someone disagrees with you, or when you think you're the smarter person.
> The market value of car audio tuning services is not determined by the existence of a curriculum that teaches this skill and hands out diplomas, degrees, or doctorates for it. No such program exists, tuning is an acquired skill. The market value of tuning is determined by the amount of time required for tuning, the amount of skill required, and the time and effort such a service saves the customer. If a customer/enthusiast wants to learn to tune their own system, on their own, that's free.


Down boy. I am in no way affiliated with Gump. I was replying directly to what I've always thought semantics meant. Independent to the topic of the thread. 

I understand this whole thread is argumentative so I get that you're on your toes. I'm literally curious if I've misunderstood what semantics has meant. 

That's it.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Patriot83 said:


> No I wasn't. Just saying $350 seems good to me.


You must make more $ than me. For me, $350 is a good chunk !


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> You must make more $ than me. For me, $350 is a good chunk !


perhaps it is, however it doesn't mean its overpriced or out of line. everyone has a budget, nothing wrong with that but it sucks when people make comments that something is over priced. its all relevant to ones income.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> I agree with almost everything, but I see no reason why the rate should change depending on the tech.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


For the same reason you are saying your skills are so valuable. Why would i want to pay your appreciate the same rate when i could have you?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

dcfis said:


> For the same reason you are staying your skills are so valuable. Why would i want to pay your appreciate the same rate when i could have you?


My employee can tune probably just as well as I can. But he has his pros and cons, while I have my pros and cons. We tag team cars, we don't assign projects to certain installers 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> You must make more $ than me. For me, $350 is a good chunk !


Well you're not just paying for their time. You're paying for their knowledge and experience also.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> My employee can tune probably just as well as I can. But he has his pros and cons, while I have my pros and cons. We tag team cars, we don't assign projects to certain installers
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


If that's true then you are absolutely correct. That is a valuable service. But you know most aren't on your level. If you hired one of them then they would not be worth your tuning rate. It would effectively bring yours down


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Btw i will gladly pay 360 for a pro to tune my car to the best of his abilities


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

dcfis said:


> Btw i will gladly pay 360 for a pro to tune my car to the best of his abilities


Hell, I'd pay $1000... If I made $200k a year. It's all relavent.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

True enough, solid gear that's applicable to install means a lot, but I wouldn't be surprised if the lot of you use gear of higher cost/standing than me. I'm a rather cheap bastard. 

You've made an investment in that you've trusted, possibly sacrificed to spend more to have better gear. Yet, if you say that income is relative to the cost of maximizing such gear, isn't that putting the cart before the horse somewhat?

A good tune with a powerful processor really makes that much of a difference. Most swap not because of piss poor drivers, but unknowingly have not maximized what the drivers were capable of. At least spend some time in the seat doing the job yourself. You might find that you can achieve good results on your own. You might also come to understand the reason for such costs. 

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> My employee can tune probably just as well as I can. But he has his pros and cons, while I have my pros and cons. We tag team cars, we don't assign projects to certain installers
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


key word is employee, when you are small, 2-3 workers it makes sense to charge a flat rate, you work on everything together, my comments reflect multiple workers that sometimes you are looking to keep busy if ya catch my drift


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Def!ant said:


> Down boy. I am in no way affiliated with Gump. I was replying directly to what I've always thought semantics meant. Independent to the topic of the thread.
> 
> I understand this whole thread is argumentative so I get that you're on your toes. I'm literally curious if I've misunderstood what semantics has meant.
> 
> That's it.


Ok, then. Semantics is, in laymans terms, the study of language, more specifically the study of the meaning of a part of language (a word, phrase, sentence, paragraph). It is not a "polite" way of saying "you're too stupid to understand what I'm saying". This is also a word that "triggers" me everytime someone uses it. Don't use it unless you're talking about the study of language.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Porsche said:


> key word is employee, when you are small, 2-3 workers it makes sense to charge a flat rate, you work on everything together, my comments reflect multiple workers that sometimes you are looking to keep busy if ya catch my drift


Tbh, I probably wouldn't know. My business owning experience doesn't extend beyond a specialized 2 man car audio shop a one man e-commerce store lol

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

ckirocz28 said:


> Ok, then. Semantics is, in laymans terms, the study of language, more specifically the study of the meaning of a part of language (a word, phrase, sentence, paragraph). It is not a "polite" way of saying "you're too stupid to understand what I'm saying". This is also a word that "triggers" me everytime someone uses it. Don't use it unless you're talking about the study of language.


It "triggers" you? Tough **** snowflake. Now get to work copying and pasting more definitions.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Bayboy said:


> True enough, solid gear that's applicable to install means a lot, but I wouldn't be surprised if the lot of you use gear of higher cost/standing than me. I'm a rather cheap bastard.
> 
> You've made an investment in that you've trusted, possibly sacrificed to spend more to have better gear. Yet, if you say that income is relative to the cost of maximizing such gear, isn't that putting the cart before the horse somewhat?
> 
> ...


Ya know BayBoy, I feel like I need to say this again.... 
A good tune "can make a huge difference with some systems that are in sure need of it", but on other properly set up systems with lots of control, not so much. Honestly, I'm not expecting a lot of improvement in my own system... Enough to spend $150 on a Dayton 408 ? Probably. At least I hope so.
I've already seen my frequency graph, and it's really not too bad.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Gump_Runner said:


> It "triggers" you? Tough **** snowflake. Now get to work copying and pasting more definitions.


It's called linking, dipshit liberal.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Gump_Runner said:


> It "triggers" you? Tough **** snowflake. Now get to work copying and pasting more definitions.


is that all you got, "snowflake", yawn, grow up


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Ya know BayBoy, I feel like I need to say this again....
> A good tune "can make a huge difference with some systems that are in sure need of it", but on other properly set up systems with lots of control, not so much. Honestly, I'm not expecting a lot of improvement in my own system... Enough to spend $150 on a Dayton 408 ? Probably. At least I hope so.
> I've already seen my frequency graph, and it's really not too bad.


I will go on the record & say that I do subscribe to the thought that a quality DSP & a tune are the most important things you can get/do to improve your sound quality. This isn't something I would have said a month ago, in fact, I would've argued the inverse, admittedly from a place of ignorance. Personally, I invested in a Audio Control DM RTA & spent roughly 10 hours clicking buttons & the improvements blew my mind.

To your point, Fish, even with a set of Hertz Mille Legend 3 ways (which I don't consider cheap/bad) I had a massive peak in my mid range that needed a lot of smoothing.

Am I suggesting that you will only achieve premium sound quality with top tier equipment only? Absolutely not. I feel like most recreational enthusiasts will benefit from a $150 Dayton 408 & a competent tune. I'd rather see a guy throw $600 at a DSP & a tune before upgrading any other component in their setup.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Def!ant said:


> I will go on the record & say that I do subscribe to the thought that a quality DSP & a tune are the most important things you can get/do to improve your sound quality. This isn't something I would have said a month ago, in fact, I would've argued the inverse, admittedly from a place of ignorance. Personally, I invested in a Audio Control DM RTA & spent roughly 10 hours clicking buttons & the improvements blew my mind.
> 
> To your point, Fish, even with a set of Hertz Mille Legend 3 ways (which I don't consider cheap/bad) I had a massive peak in my mid range that needed a lot of smoothing.
> 
> Am I suggesting that you will only achieve premium sound quality with top tier equipment only? Absolutely not. I feel like most recreational enthusiasts will benefit for a $150 Dayton 408 & a competent tune. I'd rather see a guy throw $600 at a DSP & a tune before upgrading any other component in their setup.


Well, here soon, I'll install my DSP, and I will post my honest opinion.


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## krisfnbz (Apr 30, 2008)

I personally believe $120/hr 3 hr minimum is too much. That's only because my systems generally fall within the $400-700 range. Just like adding a subwoofer to a factory system is the largest value, for me the equipment always takes first priority. Amplification, speakers, wires, install etc. I would rather spend $700 on a system and no professional tune @ $360 vs $340 on gear and a tune. Maybe I'm wrong. Then again, I have never had a professional tune. Same for DSP. I'd rather have the gear then DSP, vs DSP and less to spend on gear. Then again, I probably lean more on the SPL side of things vs SQ.

If I spent significantly more money, say $1500+, my mind would be more open to paying $360. Even thought that still seems a bit much, I feel that's more value. However, I would almost never trust a random shop. Ideally I would rather try and find someone on a forum like this, and give them a side job, and hope for a better rate by cutting the middle man out. I would rather give my money to a person in cash vs a company that needs to make a profit. For instance, I have a close friend who is a mechanic. Anytime I need work on my vehicle I am not able to do, I offer him the side job. I would rather give him $120~ cash on the side vs go to his work and pay the shop $200~, and he only sees $30. It's a win for both of us. Plus we get to hang. 

With that being said, if anyone is in reasonably close in the DC/Maryland/Virginia area, I would be open to paying for a tune... to learn. I would be willing to pickup a DSP. I would be shocked if a DSP & tune really made THAT much of a difference...I know many of you swear its necessary...im just being honest. I would love to be shocked!


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Ya know BayBoy, I feel like I need to say this again....
> A good tune "can make a huge difference with some systems that are in sure need of it", but on other properly set up systems with lots of control, not so much. Honestly, I'm not expecting a lot of improvement in my own system... Enough to spend $150 on a Dayton 408 ? Probably. At least I hope so.
> I've already seen my frequency graph, and it's really not too bad.


I definitely won't argue on your setup doesn't sound good as is or that every system needs DSP. For years, many have gone without and never batted an eye. So I can see that point. 

Aside from what normally gets preached, my first realization in how powerful some tools can be was the use of an old school Audiocontrol DQX, a mic,and TruRTA. The first setup I had with a wide range of crossover points and 30 bands of EQ (actually more than that if left & right plus a couple of parametric bands are considered). Mannn.... I was hooked just with that and there wasn't even any time alignment in that system. What I thought was pretty good before was night and day afterward. It's amazing how uncontrolled peaks and deviations from a desired curve, no matter how small, can affect a system. 

Now, it's hard for me to use anything less though I have setup such for others with decent results (Pioneer network decks with 13 band EQ). If you happen to have read any of my ramblings over the years, you might notice that I don't use expensive gear at all. Most are just hand chosen drivers, reliable amplification, and a DSP of some sort. Heck, I still have the 80prs in my daily driver from when it first came out though it's been retired to standard mode and a first gen Helix controls the signal now (got it used for about $300). If the Dayton had been out back then, it would probably still be heading up things.

Hopefully, you're not taking any of this in a negative way. Surely, the point wasn't to degrade or come across with narcissism. Tuning aides are inexpensive now to where many should at least try it once to see how much better their investment can be regardless of tier. 


Keep us updated on your results



Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Ever since I first replaced the Alpine KTP-445U amp with a Kicker KEY180.4 amp/self-tuning DSP, I realized just how important DSP can be. I was shocked how it moved the vocals up to the windshield (time alignment) and how the auto-EQ made the whole system sound better. And that is just with a very inexpensive amp with a VERY limited auto-tuning DSP (only auto-tuning - can't modify anything manually). A real DSP is _so_ much more powerful than that.

I've found that what someone thinks sounds good is very relative to what they've experienced.  I thought the very basic system in my 2012 Impala sounded awesome (plug-and-play aftermarket DVD/Navigation radio, Pioneer D-Series speakers and a Kicker KEY180.4 amp/DSP). Now, that system sounds horrible compared to the JL Audio/Helix/AmpPro/Illusion Audio setup in my current car.

Everything is relative.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

I'm just impressed that someone took a thread that was started in 2010, which got less than a page of original responses... and *10 YEARS LATER*; turned it into a 5 page ****show.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Bayboy said:


> I definitely won't argue on your setup doesn't sound good as is or that every system needs DSP. For years, many have gone without and never batted an eye. So I can see that point.
> 
> Aside from what normally gets preached, my first realization in how powerful some tools can be was the use of an old school Audiocontrol DQX, a mic,and TruRTA. The first setup I had with a wide range of crossover points and 30 bands of EQ (actually more than that if left & right plus a couple of parametric bands are considered). Mannn.... I was hooked just with that and there wasn't even any time alignment in that system. What I thought was pretty good before was night and day afterward. It's amazing how uncontrolled peaks and deviations from a desired curve, no matter how small, can affect a system.
> 
> ...


Thank you BayBoy. I didn't take your post in a negative way at all. But like I say, I think you would be surprised how good my setup sounds without a DSP. I am kind of anxious to get some 31 band control going though 🙂


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## HRLTim (Sep 20, 2019)

Anyone got some links or pointers to updated solid guides?

Saw these from 9 years ago, but I'm guessing there's more effective ways of doing it with modern DSP capabilities & REW- thank you individual 31 band EQs, phase/gain/polarity adjustment, etc. all without pulling a panel again.

Speaker aiming tips by cmusic
A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......
Help!! My soundstage ate my windshield! 

Seems like a decent way to go would be using REW to measure individual channels, then export compensated EQs, and manually transfer those to the DSP (assuming REW doesn't export compatible file types).


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

I pretty much lost interest in this thread when it turned into a pissing contest but it came up in my feed for some reason so I will make one comment. Hopefully it won't reignite anything. 

The notion of paying more for the same service because someone's income is higher is just off-base. You're just saying that you'd be willing to throw money away because you're in a higher tax bracket. The cost of a service should not be based on the customer's income.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

The Italian said:


> I pretty much lost interest in this thread when it turned into a pissing contest but it came up in my feed for some reason so I will make one comment. Hopefully it won't reignite anything.
> 
> The notion of paying more for the same service because someone's income is higher is just off-base. You're just saying that you'd be willing to throw money away because you're in a higher tax bracket. The cost of a service should not be based on the customer's income.


who said they charge more depending on customers wealth/income


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Porsche said:


> who said they charge more depending on customers wealth/income


No, it was the other way around. Someone said they would pay more.


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