# Old School bias, why???



## Hi-FiDelity

Now I can get the idea of wanting to build a setup using components that you've always dreamed about but could never afford back in the day. Hell, I can even get the idea of buying them based on pure nostalgia (I do the same thing with video games). What I don't get is the notion that if you want anything that's any good at a "fair" price you have to buy old school cause anything new aside is complete junk. I just don't get this mentality, just like I don't get the mentality that all american cars are junk and you have to buy foreign to get a "real" car. Now before any one get's there jimmies rustled I'm not anti old school gear, I fully enjoy looking at all the photos of you guy's old school collections and builds. 

What's your guys take on this and why do you think this mentality persists.


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity

No no, you have it all wrong. You buy O/S gear because price depreciation. Anything new isn't junk (vaguely speaking), it's just more expensive. 

I only buy O/S power amplifiers. If they've been running this long, then hell why not. NOT TO SAY THE CURRENT AMPLIFIERS WON'T "RUN LONG" AS WELL. MY GOD LEAVE ME ALONE. I CAN'T TRAVEL FORWARD IN TIME, & if I could, it wouldn't matter. O/S amplifiers are STILL cheaper (relatively)


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## Hi-FiDelity

MinnesotaStateUniversity said:


> Because price depreciation.
> 
> "Old school"
> 
> ^Old.
> 
> Old = price depreciation
> 
> price depreciation = cheap ...in comparison to a "new" amplifier


As I mentioned price is a big factor but I've seen far to many old school amps sold for much more than they are worth or even sold for new and for the cash they spent they could have bought a new amp of equal quality. I mean a PPI Art series is nice but when it starts selling for the same price that a Helix A4 goes for new I have to say I'll take the Helix. 



MinnesotaStateUniversity said:


> & because college student.


Join the club. 



MinnesotaStateUniversity said:


> & because if they've been running this long, then they must be built correctly. NOT TO SAY AMPLIFIERS NOW AREN'T BUILT CORRECTLY. MY GOD LEAVE ME ALONE. I'M JUST ASSUMING. WHY? BECAUSE I CAN!


No ones judging you dude no need to shout, use what you want. As I said I'm not anti old school. I just wanted to open a dialog as to why there is a bias against the idea there being new gear that is just as good if not better. 

Though you also have to factor in that they due use components that have a shelf life, which in most cases they are approaching quickly. If you paid $350 and then you have to pay another $100-$200 due to damage caused by cap failures I ask the question of why not spend the $450-$550 up front and cut out the middle man. 



MinnesotaStateUniversity said:


> Wait another 10 yrs & see if the current amplifiers are still up n running. If they are, then good for you. Don't hold me against it. I'll even buy you a cookie.


I have no doubt that in Ten years a new SS, PPI, Audison, Helix, CDT, or JL amp will still be going strong. Though I can't say the same for the new BOSS and MTX amps of the world.


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## Hi-FiDelity

MinnesotaStateUniversity said:


> No no, you have it all wrong. You buy O/S gear because price depreciation. Anything new isn't junk (vaguely speaking), it's just more expensive.
> 
> I only buy O/S power amplifiers. If they've been running this long, then hell why not. NOT TO SAY THE CURRENT AMPLIFIERS WON'T "RUN LONG" AS WELL. MY GOD LEAVE ME ALONE. I CAN'T TRAVEL FORWARD IN TIME, & if I could, it wouldn't matter. O/S amplifiers are STILL cheaper (relatively)


No one is shouting at you or telling you that you are wrong.


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity

Hi-FiDelity said:


> As I mentioned price is a big factor but I've seen far to many old school amps sold for much more than they are worth or even sold for and for the cash they spent they could have bought a new amp of equal quality.
> 
> Here's the nostalgia you were talking about.
> 
> 
> Though you also have to factor in that they due use components that have a shelf life, which in most cases they are approaching quickly. If you paid $350 and then you have to pay another $100-$200 due to damage caused by cap failures I ask the question of why not spend the $450-$550 up front and cut out the middle man.
> 
> EE student. Cap replacement for this guy probably ran about .05% of your quote.
> 
> I have no doubt that in Ten years a new SS, PPI, Audison, Helix, CDT, or JL amp will still be going strong.
> 
> That may be, but I still can get X amplifier for this value. Again, price/value. You define your own value. You can go ahead & quote me on this & take your stand. I've heard PLENTY of amplifiers, both new & old. I just picked up a PG M44 for $175 ...which is fair. This was a power amplifier of almost 1k MSRP back in the day. Doesn't matter though. Show me where I can buy a "new" amplifier for less than $200 that'll be up to par w/ an OS tripple darlington?


I gots da colours.


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## Darth SQ

I bought my o/s amps because there's nothing like them made today.
I did also recondition all of them just like you stated but preemptively as to not take a chance on catastrophic failures.
Between the initial cost of each amp and then the cost of reconditioning, it became quite expensive when compared to brand new PPI amps.
But they're just no comparison.

Here's a link to that 30 month process. 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...eries-2-amplifier-reconditioning-repairs.html



I look at them the same way I look at my 67 convertible Mustang; classic!


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Hi-FiDelity

MinnesotaStateUniversity said:


> Here's the nostalgia you were talking about.


As I said I can *respect* that, I don't quite *understand* paying more than it's original MSRP, but I won't rain on your parade if thats what you choose to do either. 



MinnesotaStateUniversity said:


> EE student. Cap replacement for this guy probably ran about .05% of your quote.


Not every one is an EE student or knows there way around a soldering iron well enough to want to play tech with there amp. I've worked on home and mobile amps before and yeah you can save so big bucks if you can do it you're self but as I said not every one can. Also remember if a cap fails it may not just be the cap you have to replace it may take out diodes and transistors as well, that's were the real labor starts if you have to take it to a tech. 



MinnesotaStateUniversity said:


> Show me where I can buy a "new" amplifier for less than $200 that'll be up to par w/ an OS tripple
> darlington?


I can't, though I never said you could get an amp for $200 that would compete with a $500+ amp of the past.


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## Hi-FiDelity

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I bought my o/s amps because there's nothing like them made today.


Visually no, thankfully 

No seriously, the Arts are real nice amps internally, I've just never understood or cared for the "art" on the white ones . The black with the red circuit diagram on the other hand.  



PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I did also recondition all of them just like you stated but preemptively as to not take a chance on catastrophic failures.


Better to spend a bit up front than to spend twice as much latter. That's also a philosophy you can use when buying a new amp as well, just an FYI to any one else that's reading. 



PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Here's a link to that 30 month process.
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...eries-2-amplifier-reconditioning-repairs.html


I saw that thread. Was a massive under taking and while it's not something that I would have done. I completely respect your desire to do so.


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## Darth SQ

Hi-FiDelity said:


> Visually no, thankfully
> 
> I kid the Arts are real nice amps internally, I've just never understood the white ones "art". The black with the red circuit diagram on the other hand.
> 
> 
> 
> Better to spend a bit up front than to spend twice as much latter.
> 
> 
> 
> I saw that thread. Was a massive under taking and while it's not something that I would have done. I completely respect your desire to do so.


The white Arts are the Dallas Cowboys of the car audio amplifier industry.
You either love 'em or hate 'em. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Darth SQ

One other point I would like to mention is that out of the 12 amps you see on the table, eight of them had hidden issues requiring additional repairs and five of those eight were represented by the sellers as to be in excellent working order.

Just something to think about when going o/s.



Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity

Hi-FiDelity said:


> Not every one is an EE student or knows there way around a soldering iron well enough to want to play tech with there amp.


You got it all wrong. EE is just 4 yrs of math & other theory.

2 years in & have not touched a circuit. I'm not even kidding.

EET is a different story. Who wants to be a tech anyway? Theory is where it's at:laugh:


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## Heterosapian

I think people pay what they pay for old school tech for all the nebulous reasons that other people buy one piece of art or another. There are plenty of objective justifications for sure, but every reason is weighted differently person to person. Who am I to tell someone - especially an enthusiast - that a given painting, car, or amplifier isn't worth what they're willing to pay for it.


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## Hi-FiDelity

MinnesotaStateUniversity said:


> You got it all wrong. EE is just 4 yrs of math & other theory.
> 
> 2 years in & have not touched a circuit. I'm not even kidding.
> 
> EET is a different story. Who wants to be a tech anyway? Theory is where it's at:laugh:


I believe it. I'm finishing up my last year as a Computer Information Systems student most of the time was spend on talking as apposed to doing. Though as I said you gotta feel confident enough in your abilities to undertake a task as involved as repairing/restoring a 15-20 year old amp. Hell some people aren't even confident enough to check their own cars washer fluid let alone even think about opening an amp.


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity

Hi-FiDelity said:


> I believe it. I'm finishing up my last year as a Computer Information Systems student most of the time was spend on *talking as apposed to doing.* Though as I said you gotta feel confident enough in your abilities to undertake a task as involved as repairing/restoring a 15-20 year old amp. Hell some people aren't even confident enough to check their own cars washer fluid let alone even think about opening an amp.


Nailed it.

CIS? This look familiar (bottom right)?


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## Hi-FiDelity

MinnesotaStateUniversity said:


> Nailed it.
> 
> CIS? This look familiar (bottom right)?


 
Is that a Raspberry Pie? 

Nice soldering iron by the way.


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity

Hi-FiDelity said:


> Is that a Raspberry Pie?


Close. Arduino. 

I like to think of it as an Ardraino. ...draining your money away. They're on par w/ car audio as far as being a rabbit hole. You get this, you need 11 other things


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## Hi-FiDelity

MinnesotaStateUniversity said:


> Close. Arduino.
> 
> I like to think of it as an Ardraino. ...draining your money away. They're on par w/ car audio as far as being a rabbit hole. You get this, you need 11 other things


I've been tempted to try and make a custom DSP out of either a Raspberry Pie or an Arduino, I'm just not that hot at programming. As far as the rabbit hole goes I understand completely. I've been obsessed with PC hardware and tech ever since I built my first PC back in 02, I'm always looking at new parts for a future build.


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## ATOMICTECH62

Boss and MTX are in no way in the same ball park.
MTX and Rockford Fosgate were like the Coke and Pepsi of U.S made full Mosfet amps.


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## Hi-FiDelity

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> Boss and MTX are in no way in the same ball park.
> MTX and Rockford Fosgate are like the Coke and Pepsi of U.S made full Mosfet amps.


Is MTX still any good, I was under the impression that they've gone down hill drastically since 2000. If I'm wrong that I apologize for the comparison.


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## ATOMICTECH62

The are starting to go that way.
The new Jackhammer series is the same Chinese stuff as all the rest.
RF is going that way also.


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## Hi-FiDelity

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> The are starting to go that way.
> The new Jackhammer series is the same Chinese stuff as all the rest.
> RF is going that way also.


Aside from the Prime line I though RF still had some real solid amps.


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## ATOMICTECH62

I think all but the power series is made over seas.
All the MTX stuff is made in China.They made the switch right around the time the TA series and the Elite line came out about 3 years ago.

The new line of amps are the same thing as the Massive n series,Critical Mass,Audio pipe etc...


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## Hi-FiDelity

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> I think all but the power series is made over seas.


That'st not necessarily a bad thing, some of the most loved amps were/are made in Korea, Japan, Taiwan, or even China. It all comes down to the design and how much effort and money a company wants to put into there product. 



ATOMICTECH62 said:


> All the MTX stuff is made in China.They made the switch right around the time the TA series and the Elite line came out about 3 years ago.
> 
> The new line of amps are the same thing as the Massive n series,Critical Mass,Audio pipe etc...


I've heard pretty good thinks about the Massive Audio N series, so I don't know if being related to them is a bad thing unless they are skimping on parts. I've also heard that one or more American Bass amps use that design as well.


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## ATOMICTECH62

Its not that there bad,just not what they use to be.And the price should reflect that.Which it does,for the most part.
Except for the Critical Mass.


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## Ray21

I like the older stuff mostly because of nostalgia... and I know they're solid.


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## NightScreams

Love the mtx elite amps, very nice. Still got mine but can't use it anymore in my new car, no room for big amps. Family owned and they own the factories in China, they still under rate their amps by 10%. Can't say about their other stuff, but the Elites are awesome.

I never thought much of MTX nor Orion in the 90's other than MTX's blue thunders which back then just sounded so clean and natural.

Honestly though, most of the old amps I still have, sound like crap by today's comparison imo. . I hooked up one last year and that hissing in the tweets reminds me of cassettes. Well the Soundstream Reference isn't bad but my Alpine MRV beats clarity out of all the old amps I have. IMO, audio is very subjective, more than some realize.


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## Hi-FiDelity

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> Its not that there bad,just not what they use to be.And the price should reflect that.Which it does,for the most part.
> Except for the Critical Mass.



What, you wouldn't pay $4,000+ for this:


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## ATOMICTECH62

That is the same EXACT amp as the Audio Pipe 1500.
I have repaired both amps in the last few months.

Yes the Elites and the TA's are good amps.They are the same EXACT amps with different covers.
TA7801=Elite 1501
TA92001=Elite4000


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## Darth SQ

NightScreams said:


> Love the mtx elite amps, very nice. Still got mine but can't use it anymore in my new car, no room for big amps. Family owned and they own the factories in China, they still under rate their amps by 10%. Can't say about their other stuff, but the Elites are awesome.
> 
> I never thought much of MTX nor Orion in the 90's other than MTX's blue thunders which back then just sounded so clean and natural.
> 
> *Honestly though, most of the old amps I still have, sound like crap by today's comparison imo. . I hooked up one last year and that hissing in the tweets reminds me of cassettes.* Well the Soundstream Reference isn't bad but my Alpine MRV beats clarity out of all the old amps I have. IMO, audio is very subjective, more than some realize.


Cap degradation.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Hi-FiDelity

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Cap degradation.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Bingo

Yeah there is no reason for a quality amp to sound like crap ever as long as it's up to factory spec.


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## ChrisB

I went through an old school nostalgic phase and boy am I glad that chapter of my life is now over with. If you like turn on/off pops, hiss, and huge amplifiers, then old school is for you. If you don't mind putting a 10" sub in a 1.5 cubic foot sealed enclosure because it is more "efficient," then old school is for you. If you like component speakers with foam surrounds that will dry rot and break, then old school is for you!


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## NightScreams

Anyone remember the MMATS 1200d? I think it was the first class D amp, rated down to 1/4 ohm load. Worst interference of my life but I fell for the marketing. Not sure if it works but certain I still have it somewhere.

One oldschool thing I always wanted to play with was the Phoenix Gold Cyclone, it was weird, a tube with what looked like the blades inside a washing machine. I assume it does sub 20hz like what those fan looking transducer's do that some rich people have for their Home Theaters.
I also still have some Aura Bass Shakers...remember those lol?


PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Cap degradation.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Hiss, turn on pops..etc is what i'm referring to, those amps always did that. Todays seem more akin to home recievers. Some old ones like my Soundstream get way ridiculously hot, like coffee scalding hot, actually most of them did or get close but that Reference amp was the worst for heat imo. I also think the Punch ix and kicker amps I have from early 90's were sound colored, like Bose tricks or something is what they sound like to me. Not that I really care much, it's just music in a fcking car



ChrisB said:


> I went through an old school nostalgic phase and boy am I glad that chapter of my life is now over with. If you like turn on/off pops, hiss, *and huge amplifiers*, then old school is for you. If you don't mind putting a 10" sub in a 1.5 cubic foot sealed enclosure because it is more "efficient," then old school is for you. If you like component speakers with foam surrounds that will dry rot and break, then old school is for you!


Some are impressively small considering their time,imo. Like the punch 45/60ix I have a silver kenwood amp smaller than my wallet in the garage, rated at 20 watts x2 if I recall. Dunno why I traded a NES game for it back then considering HU's put out the same power. lol
Also another silver kenwood rated 100wx2 that is smaller or as small as my MRV Alpine amp rated at 60x2...assuming any of them do rated.


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## Navy Chief

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> One other point I would like to mention is that out of the 12 amps you see on the table, eight of them had hidden issues requiring additional repairs and five of those eight were represented by the sellers as to be in excellent working order.
> 
> Just something to think about when going o/s.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


This is important to remember is you want to go old school, even great amps wear over time. I just had my Phoenix Gold Outlaw and Bandits that were "brand new" started up on the test bench just in case. the Outlaw blew a FET after getting power for the first time. Even though the amp was a 9.9 cosmetically it needed $150 in repairs. However at 14.4 volts the M100 put out 287 watts per channel @ 4 ohms that is almost 200% above rated power, what new amp is putting out numbers like that.


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## RNBRAD

Nostalgia is hard to equal. It's like classic cars. Sure they don't have blue tooth, satellite radio, ultra quiet interior. It's having a major piece of car audio history and something not very many people have and something you just can't go out and buy. You just don't expect to see a guy running a Punch 150 on his subs with a Power 100 on his fronts. To me, that's priceless. Also old equipment has been tried and tested an we know what are the "gems" and we can cherry pick the products with known quality and performance. The stuff today your rolling the dice on what will last and what won't.


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## Darth SQ

RNBRAD said:


> Nostalgia is hard to equal. It's like classic cars. Sure they don't have blue tooth, satellite radio, ultra quiet interior. It's having a major piece of car audio history and something not very many people have and something you just can't go out and buy. *You just don't expect to see a guy running a Punch 150 on his subs with a Power 100 on his fronts. To me, that's priceless.* Also old equipment has been tried and tested an we know what are the "gems" and we can cherry pick the products with known quality and performance. The stuff today your rolling the dice on what will last and what won't.


^^^
If I saw that at a car show, car audio comp, or by happen stance, I would stop and beg for a listen! :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## RNBRAD

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> ^^^
> If I saw that at a car show, car audio comp, or by happen stance, I would stop and beg for a listen! :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


After I picked my jaw up off the ground I would demand the same.


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## SaturnSL1

RNBRAD said:


> Nostalgia is hard to equal. It's like classic cars. Sure they don't have blue tooth, satellite radio, ultra quiet interior. It's having a major piece of car audio history and something not very many people have and something you just can't go out and buy.


This is it for me. It's nostalgia and the idea of keeping something alive that's been in so many peoples hands, like an old house or car. I was born in 93 and got into car audio way too late in my opinion, I'm more interested in reliving the glory days that I missed out on.

If these old amps could talk I'd want to hear all their stories. You never know what you're holding, or who owned it back in the day.


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## Hi-FiDelity

SaturnSL1 said:


> ...I was born in 93 and got into car audio way too late in my opinion, I'm more interested in reliving the glory days that I missed out on.


I can dig it, though there are still quite a few manufactures releasing excellent gear at fair prices (though you're not gonna get a Helix Blue,Pioneer PRS, SS REF, PPI PC, CDT, or Candace United for under 200 bones). I also wouldn't say you got in "too late" or that you "missed out", honestly I think you've gotten in a a pretty good time. Old school gear can still be had for fairly cheap (though that's starting to change) and there is quite a bit of quality gear appearing on the market one more. The mobile audio took a big down turn in the early 2000's but there seem to be more companies making more quality products than there were even 5 years ago. I think the mobile audio market is maturing, kind of like the home audio market did in the mid 90's. Yeah there are lots of cheap pieces of junk, though go back to 90's or even the 80's and I'll bet you will see just as much crap than as now. The thing is that just like now the cheap **** don't last so it's off to the landfill with in a year, so it doesn't surface as often as the products of higher quality. 




SaturnSL1 said:


> If these old amps could talk I'd want to hear all their stories. You never know what you're holding, or who owned it back in the day.


This right hear is a statement I can get behind, I get the same feeling from collecting vinyl, old school home audio gear, video games, ect.


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## Ampman

I've done work on both new and old school amps, but there's no comparison in build quality to an old school amp. And also how an old school amp sounds verses new and I'm referring here to class AB not D. For example and I think it's rite funny by the way  I've got an old school RoDEK RA230E it's small in size but hook that thing up to a 10 or 12 inch sub and if you didn't know there was a mere 60 watt into 4 ohm amp pushing them you'd swear it was something really big so yeah old school has my vote all the way. Not knocking those whose use new by any means but to me it just don't get any better than old school just my opinion and mine don't count


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## a-minus

SaturnSL1 said:


> This is it for me. It's nostalgia and the idea of keeping something alive that's been in so many peoples hands, like an old house or car. I was born in 93 and got into car audio way too late in my opinion, I'm more interested in reliving the glory days that I missed out on.
> 
> If these old amps could talk I'd want to hear all their stories. You never know what you're holding, or who owned it back in the day.


I know just what you mean...I feel robbed when I compare most new amps to o/s amps. To me, it's similar to how cars have gone. Anyone who has worked on newer cars can attest to the fact that they just don't make them like they used to. And sure, if you pay for it, you can get high quality stuff, but you can't trust equipment to be nice just because it's name-brand.


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## Jroo

I think one can have an augument for both cases. There are some things that I just prefer old school. Some people buy old school for build quality and the fact that most was US made. In the case of decks, I prefer old school. Yes there are very good new school decks and they have great features like TA and EQ, but I can really tell the sound difference in the old school SQ decks. Take and alpine for instance and again I am not talking about the features part. If you take a mid 90's early 2000's alpine and A/B against some of the newer alpines, you can hear the difference right away. The new stuff doenst have the warpth that the older Alpine have. I have a few older Eclipse decks that I run simply because I hear the difference. There is a reason why people will still cut off an arm or sell a kid to get their hands on a 7909 today. Does the Pioneer 99 do everything a way more, yes. If you A/B both decks who would win, dont know! There is just something to be said for the simplicity and SQ that the old 7909 still has. 

I personally have heard the difference in an old school amp vs a new school amp. I know we have arguments that people say you cant tell the difference, but I am here to say that isnt correct. I have been in cars where somebody simply swapped out the new school class D amps and put in some old school A/Bs just to compare. Mind you nothing else changed other than things like gains, and you could hear the difference. This is not to say that we dont have some incredible new school amps today that have qreat SQ, because we certainly do. 

For speakers I think new school can equal and surpass old school but you then have to factor in price point. For instance, I love the old Infinity Beta line and the Infinity Kappa ribbon tweeters. They are just excellent sounding speakers and IMO just hard to beat. Yes I can find new school speakers that sound as good or better, but I now have to factor in price point. I can get lucky and find a set of Betas for lets say 200 buck or go to a store or online and buy new product "x" at 500 or more to get that same sound quality. For instance Hertz has a ribbon tweeter but I know I have to pay "X" to get it. I can get real lucky and I mean real lucky and get another set of Infinity Ribbons for a lot cheaper when they come up for sale. 

With subs, I think that new school wins here. Sub tech has gotten to the point where 8" subs in super small boxes do what many of the old schools subs can do in boxes that took up your whole trunk. Unless you tell my that you found a Velodyne servo sub or something along those lines, new school wins here.


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## Hi-FiDelity

I have to say I'm rather happy with the way this thread has turned out. Despite the divisive question of New School V Old School the comments and responses have remained respective. I mean yeah I disagree with some comments but again they all boil down to personal opinions and I could care less if your opinion is different than mine or anyone else's for that matter, it the fact that everyone can respect everyone's opinions even if they disagree.


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## CDT FAN

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Cap degradation.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Which caps need to be updated? (power supply, input, preamp, etc)


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## roduk

I'm into old cars and old car hifi. 

Tyre technology has moved on, so I run modern rubber on my 1973 classic car because it improves performance...

Much the same as old school gear, I run a modern source (MX5000) but old school amps (SS Picassos & 10.2) BUT I wouldn't want to rely on old school speakers to get the sound to my ears - speaker tech has moved on too, so I use modern speakers. I LOVE old school amps though... Can't beat them imo (and they look so darn cool in an old school car  )


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## msdosp1mp

Although not true old school, I run late 90's eclipse amplifiers in my 626. They are bullet proof and have incredible crossover networks. Have two 3424's and one 3321 installed. American made of very high quality components.


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## msdosp1mp

Jroo said:


> I think one can have an augument for both cases. There are some things that I just prefer old school. Some people buy old school for build quality and the fact that most was US made. In the case of decks, I prefer old school. Yes there are very good new school decks and they have great features like TA and EQ, but I can really tell the sound difference in the old school SQ decks. Take and alpine for instance and again I am not talking about the features part. If you take a mid 90's early 2000's alpine and A/B against some of the newer alpines, you can hear the difference right away. The new stuff doenst have the warpth that the older Alpine have. I have a few older Eclipse decks that I run simply because I hear the difference. There is a reason why people will still cut off an arm or sell a kid to get their hands on a 7909 today. Does the Pioneer 99 do everything a way more, yes. If you A/B both decks who would win, dont know! There is just something to be said for the simplicity and SQ that the old 7909 still has.
> 
> I personally have heard the difference in an old school amp vs a new school amp. I know we have arguments that people say you cant tell the difference, but I am here to say that isnt correct. I have been in cars where somebody simply swapped out the new school class D amps and put in some old school A/Bs just to compare. Mind you nothing else changed other than things like gains, and you could hear the difference. This is not to say that we dont have some incredible new school amps today that have qreat SQ, because we certainly do.
> 
> For speakers I think new school can equal and surpass old school but you then have to factor in price point. For instance, I love the old Infinity Beta line and the Infinity Kappa ribbon tweeters. They are just excellent sounding speakers and IMO just hard to beat. Yes I can find new school speakers that sound as good or better, but I now have to factor in price point. I can get lucky and find a set of Betas for lets say 200 buck or go to a store or online and buy new product "x" at 500 or more to get that same sound quality. For instance Hertz has a ribbon tweeter but I know I have to pay "X" to get it. I can get real lucky and I mean real lucky and get another set of Infinity Ribbons for a lot cheaper when they come up for sale.
> 
> With subs, I think that new school wins here. Sub tech has gotten to the point where 8" subs in super small boxes do what many of the old schools subs can do in boxes that took up your whole trunk. Unless you tell my that you found a Velodyne servo sub or something along those lines, new school wins here.


I run an eclipse 8053 head unit active and it sounds better than anything "new" I've ever heard. Just so smooth.


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## Ampman

msdosp1mp said:


> Although not true old school, I run late 90's eclipse amplifiers in my 626. They are bullet proof and have incredible crossover networks. Have two 3424's and one 3321 installed. American made of very high quality components.


Those eclipse amps are stout, I've got a 3321 and SQ is top notch


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## BadSS

I guess I’m old school bias by default,, not necessarily by choice - lol. 

My first “high-end” amp (for me) was an Odin HiFonics IV purchased around 1987. I later traded $60 of work for a used Thor HiFonics IV around 1989. I ran both those amps in three other cars until 2006 or 2007 until I swapped them out for the new-old-stock HiFonics Gen X amps I bought around 2000. I had bought the Gen X amps after hearing they were the last of the USA made amps and squirreled them away thinking sooner or later the old IVs would give it up. 

After 6 - 7 years of storage,,, I got tired of waiting and used the Gen X amps in my last car around 2006/2007 and have one of them and a like new Gen X Goliath I bought last year in my new car now. If they last as long as the Series IVs,,, it’ll be 2026 before I get tired of waiting for them to fail and get something new. 

I will say this,,,, I helped a buddy install a coupe of the new JL HD amps a few months ago. The thing I really like about the Gen X is their noise floor rivals any of the high-end home receivers I’ve heard. I’m not sure if the noise floor on the JL HDs is better than the Gen X,, but it is super low as well. Low enough that I hope they’re making something that good in 2026. If not,, I guess I’ll be cruising e-Bay and the forums trying to buy old school JL HDs.


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## soundhertz

I love these threads about old vs new school. All I can say is, I've tried the latest class d Jl Hd amp and was thoroughly disappointed. I am keeping my Orion NT amps. They are not only cleaner but much more linear in the whole audio spectrum. No bias here, I have owned many amps and this is fact.


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## Sine Swept

One thing I would also like to note about an OS radio, is actually the radio tuner. I installed a basic Eclipse deck for a guy and I was blown away at how many stations AM/FM that I could pull with this thing. My radio with an antenna booster can hardly get stations that are within an hour and a half of me.


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## Ampman

I've got an old Panasonic car radio/cassette deck that will pull in stations in most cases without an antenna connected to it. And clear at that.


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## Ampman

I'm currently using an OS Sony Mobile ES head unit an processor with all Zed made amps in my vehicle. It's got a good clean sound. The OS Orion amps are pertty nice amps. I've got an OS first gen 280GX with the moon an star logo on its heat sink. I was real impressed with how clean it sounds as well.


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## justicepool

Love this thread, and it is very timely. I am getting ready to do a new system and I am very much "old school biased". I think there is a certain amount of nostalgia involved with the desire for old school products. I started in car audio in 1985. I do remember when PPI and RF sold out to a larger company (was it DEI?) and I thought the build quality of the products dropped off immensely. I guess I have had that same mindset all these years. 

LOVE The PPI art pictures in this thread, I still have a PPI Art series amp in the closet. 

So, does it seem like one can get a "new school" amp that puts out the same power as an old school huge amp? That would be nice!


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## Hi-FiDelity

My opinion is yes you can and it's not as costly as some may think. You won't be getting them for flea market prices but you won't have to take out a loan to get an amp. On the subject of PPI. It appears that they have made a definite stride toward quality since they got snatched up by the Epsilon Group, they seem to be a company that is run by/hires true enthusiast. The new Power Class amps seem to be a worthy modern successor to the old PC line and their class D phantoms get a lot of respect here on the forms. 

Also I don't believe that RF was ever owned by DEI or anyone for that matter. I think they are one of the few from the early days that has managed to stay profitable and independent. Their Power line amp are nothing to scoff at either from what I've heard.


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## justicepool

Any suggestions on a good solid 2 channel amp? 

I've got a BK Butler TDB2150 that I was going to use, but have to send it off for repair and would certainly consider something else. That amp is fairly large. 

I guess with RF I am thinking about when they moved manufacturing from Arizona to overseas. At least, I think they did that....this was a long time ago. 

I put another thread about speakers here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...mponent-audiophile-grade-speakers-advice.html

It relates to the old school bias. Any advice is greatly appreciated. 




Hi-FiDelity said:


> My opinion is yes you can and it's not as costly as some may think. You won't be getting them for flea market prices but you won't have to take out a loan to get an amp. On the subject of PPI. It appears that they have made a definite stride toward quality since they got snatched up by the Epsilon Group, they seem to be a company that is run by/hires true enthusiast. The new Power Class amps seem to be a worthy modern successor to the old PC line and their class D phantoms get a lot of respect here on the forms.
> 
> Also I don't believe that RF was ever owned by DEI or anyone for that matter. I think they are one of the few from the early days that has managed to stay profitable and independent. Their Power line amp are nothing to scoff at either from what I've heard.


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## Hi-FiDelity

I think RF still assembled the Power Line in the US , though I could be wrong. As far as suggestions go, I'm a bit partial to the higher end offerings from Soundstream and PPI (Mainly the Reference and Power Class lines, which are similar but not the same). I don't think you could go wrong with a PPI 650.2 or a SS REF 640.2 though they do take up some space they are far from being "monsters". Though if you're looking for SQ amp that has a small footprint and good power I've heard some real good things about Clarions new class D XC line. They also appear to be fairly well made.


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## lakersfan1

Old amps were better for competition because the good competition brands like MTX, PPI, Phoenix Gold, or Orion were all ridiculously underrated. I would buy an MTX amp rated at 25x4watts that would make 5 times that amount on the birth sheet.

Newer amps are better in the real world just because the efficiency has gone up, so install size is much smaller now. Older amps had an assload of built in capacitance, though.

Personally, I can deal with the newer amps just fine. Noise levels are much lower on newer amps that they were back in the day. Easy to install. Newer cosmetics. Easier to install since most old amps required ring terminals on every single power and speaker connection, whereas newer ones usually have the easier allen head clamp style.

However, given the chance (and money), I'd get a McIntosh MC4000 just to be completely ridiculous. 3 foot wide amp built with brushed aluminum and glass. Gotta love it.


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## Hi-FiDelity

If people weren't demanding obscene amounts of green for one I would get a Nakamichi PA-2004 to match my 2002 but at the current $600-$1000 going price I'll spend $300-$450 and get a new Soundstream Reference series that not only has the same power out put but the same THD, SNR, and Crosstalk. Plus they've got old school looks with new school guts.


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## amalmer71

lakersfan1 said:


> Old amps were better for competition because the good competition brands like MTX, PPI, Phoenix Gold, or Orion were all ridiculously underrated. I would buy an MTX amp rated at 25x4watts that would make 5 times that amount on the birth sheet.


Keep in mind, that is when IASCA rules were starting to change and the amplifier manufactures took advantage of a loop hole.

In the beginning, the rules used to state, in outlaw competition, the car could not be running. Because of that, the voltage drop was huge, dropping as low as 11vdc, so the manufactures you mentioned would rate their amplifiers around that voltage. 

Then IASCA changed the rules to allow you to have the car running, but never changed how the amplifiers had to be rated. Those same amplifiers now went from 50 watts RMS x 2 @ 4 ohms rated at 11.5vdc to 100 watts RMS x 2 @ 4 ohms with 13.8vdc, but IASCA still recognized them as being 100 watt amplifiers.

That's how they became known as "cheater" amps.

Personally, I appreciate old and new. I have a lot of both. LOL

I have a couple of RF DSM Punch 200ix amps, a Punch 60 DSM, an old Alpine 3527V, and even an old RF Power 150a monoblock. I also have a couple of Powerbass and newer JBL amplifiers. Nothing wrong with either old or new, but I think it revolves around the whole "wow" factor of the old stuff. Especially since it helps some of us recapture our youth and reminisce about "the good old days".

But there does come a time when money over nostalgia wins. One of the amps I have is an original Punch 100 DSM (before the ix series) that I bought brand new in 1991 for just under $400. It no longer works, and I'm too cheap to have it fixed, but I can assure you I'll never sell it. It's the first brand new RF amp I ever bought. That's saying a lot, because like many of you, that was back when I was a starving college student with a part time job pumping gas and patching tires at the local Shell station. $400 was about 3 weeks pay for me.


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## SilkySlim

My Bias is purely based on sound quality and performance. I actually wanted new. I tried a couple of newer amps and speakers and was very disappointed they had some power and got loud but didn't sound good. Really bright, boomy on low end, not linear, and felt cheap. 
I have different priorities than the direction of many of the consumers today. Many companies not all have shifted priorities to smaller more efficient, lower price points and profitable designs. When your design goals change many things change. Old school designs were very exposed you could not cover up design shortcuts as well as you can today. Most systems then were more simplistic in design. Even most competition vehicles had an active crossover and maybe an EQ if that. Many were using passive crossover and as few amps as possible to drop into the lower classes. So the more natural sounding and linear your amp was full range the better. Competitions were on fire, magazines were booming plenty of product reviews done well, very little processing available to tune and mask flaws in product design. Look back though at speaker works and the adapted pro level phase/time alignment into some the most successful vehicles in IASCA history. That said still the most successful cars have the best tuning. 

I tried as many amps as i could get ahold of for a/b testing and as a whole most OS just sound more linear, natural, and some sound warm. If you want more reasons with a much more tech. Explanation go to pass labs website (sorry haven't figured out how to post a link but he has great tech explanations of amp designs and sound caracteristics.

Where I have seen a major improvement is in processing and head unit features and integration. A very welcome change. Now tuning is much more effective, affordable, and you can make up for some of the newer drawbacks. I have also seen some improvements in speaker driver designs. Sub motors and overall sub design has improved. Tweeter design and price you can get a morel tempo tweeter for the price of a polymid tweet OS and the Tempo will out perform or on par with many OS high end soft dome tweets. Glues surrounds, and suspensions have improved. There is still junk out there. 

I am old school though do as little to the signal and system as possible and tune out the little things no matter how much power you have. If you have a major room or location challenge then just tune out as much as you can. The new processors give us so much tuning power that it is very tempting to just tune, tune, tune and make up for design flaws. 

The source units are going through software and hardware growing pains. You have to reboot. Things lock up etc. that is annoying but that is life now everything is digital and trying to integrate so many different tech. With very little control on standards. When it works it's fantastic but when it fails you just wish you had your 7909 and it would just just play your favorite cd very well I might add. That is a universal problem these days though and look at the rapid pace tech is growing. We just accept it and keep buying it. 

There is a certain value to the higher end OS amps. You can pick up some great power for $125-$400 and even if you add $65-$200 getting them reconditioned with new caps and gone through and tested. You still will have a hell of an amp to last another 10-20 years. So I get it. I also get the nostalgia guys that remember the glory days of car audio and remember when things just worked too. Most of your high end SQ amps today Genisis, Brax, Mosconi, JL Audio, Arc Audio, Zapco, Linear Power, Zed, etc. hit the higher price points where most OS amps started out 20yrs ago. That's with inflation pretty impressive. If you notice though that what many considered crap amp brands (ie. pyramid, boss, etc.) back in the day were the profitable amps and the companies that survived and own many OS high end amp names now. 

I accept that my Bluetooth may be a little buggy and it may lock up sometimes for the better D/A converters on the deck, the convinence of hands free, the time/phase alinement (done in the digital domain for less side effects), and high voltage outputs for $200. Do I wish it would work as reliably as the old school yes! I get it though. 

Anyway I hope I didn't bore you but that is my take. Thanks.


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## 14642

I've worked in this industry for nearly 30 years and I can say without a doubt that the best products today are FAR superior to the best old school products. The worst products today are far worse than the worst products of yesteryear. That's what happens when an enthusiast category becomes mainstream. Lots of companies making garbage to cash in.


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## BFYTW

I have two PG MS-275's hanging on the wall in my garage, guts exposed. Caps are dead, and I have contacted AAMP about reconditioning them but im cheap. not to mention i feel like i SHOULD be able to buy something new for the same $ that would be better, but i dont believe that in my mind. I cant.

is it a placebo effect?

then i think.. ya know what??? it doesnt matter if I can or cant... because nothing.. nothing out there today is as sexy as these old school beast, and it seems a shame for them to be just wall art now.....

a sad reminder of the car audio explosive birth in the early 90's.

P.S. did anyone else use any of those old power slide Kenwoods? those things were MEAN. very impressive amps.. not my old class A Soundsteams but wow... for a Kenwood...


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## RNBRAD

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I've worked in this industry for nearly 30 years and *I can say without a doubt that the best products today are FAR superior to the best old school products.* The worst products today are far worse than the worst products of yesteryear. That's what happens when an enthusiast category becomes mainstream. Lots of companies making garbage to cash in.


That's a very broad statement and it's just not that simple. I think if that statement were true across the board, we wouldn't be talking about it and old school gear just would not have any consumer intrigue or desire whatsoever. But quite the contrary. It is very sought after for the performance, longevity, and overall product quality. 

The nice thing about old school products, they have been tried and tested and we know what to buy. New products just have not been put to the test and consumers are skeptical, they are not convinced of the "far" superiorness of anything about these new products, cause it just isn't convincing enough. I do believe they are throwing more features at us and many products are better, but as an industry, I don't see the overall quality as being anything close to "far" superior. I think people today have been far more dissapointed in the car audio and electronics world than they were some 10 to 20yrs ago. Like I say, I think time will tell to see how good todays stuff is. Performance means nothing if it can't last. I have OS amps going on 20yrs old and still perform as good and mostly better than the best high end amps money can buy today and have most of 20 years. 

I don't think those in the industry and the consumers have been seeing eye to eye for quite some time and probably scratch their heads as to why we like our old school stuff and the entire time these manufacturers assure us their products are "far" superior than anything they produced before. I first experienced this exact scenario when competing for Kicker for many years. As I used their newer products and they wanted feedback I continually argued they were going backward in SQ. They were appauled and said the speakers made today are far superior than anything manufactured before. I quit using their new stuff and went back to OS stuff, and this is the sentiments of the majority of SQ competitors and consumers as a whole. You won't convince Kicker that though, and their words will sound like Andy's. They have thier heads burried in the sand, and what do we know, were just consumers that use the products day in and day out year after year. My .02.


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## DonH

Here is my take on the OLD vs NEW products. The industry is not that old honestly. Old school products hit home on those of an older generation. The saying "its not built like it was back in the day" is an ever occurring statement. The same goes as antiques. Whats its worth to some, may not be worth to others. I like some old school equipment, but love new school that is worth purchasing! Im in my 20's, so i am nowhere near some folks age in the industry. Now the fact that majority is made overseas is another argument. Why is it made there? because the consumers drove it there. you can point a finger at a greedy / capitalist owner, but really the blame is solely on the consumer. The industry is racing to zero. why? because consumers push it there. Most people are extremely cheap and want the "best bang for their buck." With that said I hope more and more US audio companies begin to shift manufacturing in house.

-Don


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

RNBRAD said:


> That's a very broad statement and it's just not that simple. I think if that statement were true across the board, we wouldn't be talking about it and old school gear just would not have any consumer intrigue or desire whatsoever. But quite the contrary. It is very sought after for the performance, longevity, and overall product quality.
> 
> The nice thing about old school products, they have been tried and tested and we know what to buy. New products just have not been put to the test and consumers are skeptical, they are not convinced of the "far" superiorness of anything about these new products, cause it just isn't convincing enough. I do believe they are throwing more features at us and many products are better, but as an industry, I don't see the overall quality as being anything close to "far" superior. I think people today have been far more dissapointed in the car audio and electronics world than they were some 10 to 20yrs ago. Like I say, I think time will tell to see how good todays stuff is. Performance means nothing if it can't last. I have OS amps going on 20yrs old and still perform as good and mostly better than the best high end amps money can buy today and have most of 20 years.
> 
> I don't think those in the industry and the consumers have been seeing eye to eye for quite some time and probably scratch their heads as to why we like our old school stuff and the entire time these manufacturers assure us their products are "far" superior than anything they produced before. I first experienced this exact scenario when competing for Kicker for many years. As I used their newer products and they wanted feedback I continually argued they were going backward in SQ. They were appauled and said the speakers made today are far superior than anything manufactured before. I quit using their new stuff and went back to OS stuff, and this is the sentiments of the majority of SQ competitors and consumers as a whole. You won't convince Kicker that though, and their words will sound like Andy's. They have thier heads burried in the sand, and what do we know, were just consumers that use the products day in and day out year after year. My .02.


IMHO, its not really that broad of a statement. I believe (don't want to put words in his mouth) that Andy is stating that the best products of today, are without a doubt better than the best older products. Comparing new kicker products to old ones doesn't fit this bill, as kicker hasn't made the best products in a long long time. They seem to have focused more on power handling for mass consumer use in small boxes. Now, compare something like the JBL 660's to anything made back in the day in that size, and the JBL's will kill them in distortion and frequency response. They will go louder, cleaner, and more accurate than the older speakers will. Or compare the Scanspeak Illuminators to anything considered "old school" and tell me that the old speakers are better in any way other than efficiency.


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## RNBRAD

If we were talking solely speakers, I'd say those statements may be slightly more accurate as a whole. However, I don't think those JBL's would kill a Q series or a 1st gen Utopia.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Speaking subjectively, depending on how loud and low you want them to play, you are right, since frequency response is the main subjective determining factor, and old school speakers could get that right (as can good new school speakers). However, I would bet my whole system on the JBL's playing lower and cleaner than either one of those options, and at a higher output. I would also bet that even below the linear excursion limits, the JBL's would be cleaner, distortion wise.


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## todj

Old school vs new school varies a lot on what type of products we are discussing. 

Amps are now commonly being swapped from class A/B of the old to class D of the new. When class D first came along it wasn't perfect and probably got a bad reputation. Class A/B of the old was often 60-70% efficiency rating. It also generated a lot of HEAT due to it's inefficiency and increased the likelihood of failure. Class D is more like 70-80% efficiency sometimes even higher. This translates to less strain on your electrical system. This trade off comes with a cost. Although most people cant tell class D vs Class A/B I am sure that some people can. 

Old school subs and speakers are great to a point but I think our present selection of them has really maximized their potential (subwoofers especially). Over the years we have learned how to maximize power handling, cooling. How to minimize failures (better surround material like rubber vs the old foam, bigger spider diameter and better spiders with sewn in leads to prevent tinsel slap, higher level of layers on voice coil windings as well as the option for Aluminum instead of only copper). We also have different coil and motor designs today. Old school subwoofers were always either overhung or underhung. Now we have alternative options such as JBL dual gap differential drive, TC Sounds LMS, Resonant Engineering/RE Audio's split gap coil, Adire's creation of XBL2 which is/has been used in several of today's woofers. These new approaches to design have shown the promise of reducing distortion while still offering great output.


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## todj

I do also believe that we are all guilty of buying the wonderful pleasures that we "always wanted" later on in life. We have all wanted something that we couldn't afford (like that really fast sports car). Before we know it we are rolling around with 2 minivans and 17 kids. When that part of our life ends......its time to buy that Corvette!


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## todj

It is widely true that a lot of car audio enthusiasts of the newer generation want it cheaper. They want the best deal/value. Companies realize that. To stay afloat they have all been forced to adopt a specific business model for success. They find themselves getting everything built in China and Korea to keep the product cost down. They also commonly go Internet Direct because they don't have to worry about dealers and a storefront. A lot of Quality Control is lost in foreign countries. Build materials are often inferior to parts we utilize in the US. I also feel like as Americans we tend to hate products not stamped "Made in USA"


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## SilkySlim

todj said:


> It is widely true that a lot of car audio enthusiasts of the newer generation want it cheaper. They want the best deal/value. Companies realize that. To stay afloat they have all been forced to adopt a specific business model for success. They find themselves getting everything built in China and Korea to keep the product cost down. They also commonly go Internet Direct because they don't have to worry about dealers and a storefront. A lot of Quality Control is lost in foreign countries. Build materials are often inferior to parts we utilize in the US. I also feel like as Americans we tend to hate products not stamped "Made in USA"


I have many different friends in many industries and they all have had problems with distance and language barriers when moving overseas. Thats a whole other conversation. Yes QC, batch consistency, and various other issues but cost do go down overall.

I think everybody wants "cheaper performance" but also kids today have many more expenses than we had at that age. Speaking for the ancients. Now they have to have smart phones, mobile data, mobile phone, etc. back when most of these audio companies were in there hay day very few parents had cell phones most permanently install in cars (I even had an alpine phone couldn't afford service but I had crystal clear 911 baby), some had pagers and gas was around $1. Few kids even had pagers. LOL 

The new cars and younger gen has pushed the industry in a different direction. They have so many bills tugging at that wallet, they have to have cheaper solutions or they won't buy. Not to mention we are a Walmart/Costco society now. Cheaper, little support, no experts to help you make your purchase. The main concern is that it rang up as the right price. We all want to pay as little as possible and get the best absolute performance but most times that means spending more! I remember selling/installing in the 80's&90's and a good part of our money & volume were because of a crappy factory system with 3-5 watts at best. People knew if they bought a car new or used (that cared at all about sound) we were the next stop it had to be replaced. Even the car dealers new and used helped keep us in business between alarms/keyless entry and radio replacements. New cars with better factory systems not to mention more integrated, cut out a big chunk of the market. The mid market average Joe sound guy that was happy with a deck and 4 speaker upgrade. Then maybe a sub. 

Let's face it most of the talent and brightest minds are going to be recruited by the most profitable industries and the big money if it really ever had that big of money left town awhile ago. No one to blame but ourselves.

Enough of the market analysis. The topic, yes, I agree that things have progressed in many ways but from a purely SQ point of view I'm not convinced. 

Integration much improved. Flexibility much improved. Size and efficiently cost much improved. Parts with better longer lasting specs improved. Speakers decent brands and up, on the whole much improved yes subs a big part of that. Processing power and cleanliness by reducing phase distortions doing the processing in the digital domain. It also improved by combining three or more boxes into one for less noise and possible grounding issues. So yes improved. 

Amps verdict still out on best vs. best and worst vs. worst great designs from both eras. Many old amps can be outfitted with closer better components not to costly and does further improve performance. 

There is some crap from both eras for sure. If I were to make a general blanket statement about both eras and what they've got right SQ wise overall. This is not taking into consideration size or efficiency. 

I would say tech and processing (ie, EQ, TA, XOver) and speakers goes to New products. Hmm that probably is the most profitable parts of the industry.

I would give the amps category to Old school product overall though. Its easy to make up for the lack of crossover flexibility with the aforementioned processors. The market just seams flooded with crap now and the really good brands it's hard for them to get good exposure. I think I could count on both hands how many good brands now. Where as I could only count on two hands the crap old school amps. Not including the home made flea market knockoff crap actual brands.


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## SilkySlim

Hi-FiDelity said:


> I have to say I'm rather happy with the way this thread has turned out. Despite the divisive question of New School V Old School the comments and responses have remained respective. I mean yeah I disagree with some comments but again they all boil down to personal opinions and I could care less if your opinion is different than mine or anyone else's for that matter, it the fact that everyone can respect everyone's opinions even if they disagree.


Ditto


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## Mcnulty

SilkySlim said:


> My Bias is purely based on sound quality and performance. I actually wanted new. I tried a couple of newer amps and speakers and was very disappointed they had some power and got loud but didn't sound good. Really bright, boomy on low end, not linear, and felt cheap.


That's exactly what happened to me....
I'm 32 years old, and i appreciate new stuff, but like most have said, today is not about SQ it's about anything else.....

I have here my old cda-7894 and i put it next to my new cdehd 149bt....
boy the new one feel like a toy... in EVERY aspect! if you compare the plug in the back the cables are so cheap tiny , and don't give me that **** about oh yeah new thing are smaller and lighter bla bla bla....

This new deck has a 24bit dac... so what? the 7894 had 1 bit and it sounded GREAT! wt. im supposed to do with the other 23bits? 

Nothing because it does not sound as good as the old one it just don't

Why would i need FB notifications on my HU???????

Im maybe to old but i appreciate some O/S stuff.

Also i remember back in the day where almost every sub had paper cone, the sound of the paper cone it's richer than pp cone IMO, i could say new school JL subs still have my vote in SQ at least, wich is what im looking for...


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## jmacdadd

amalmer71 said:


> Then IASCA changed the rules to allow you to have the car running, but never changed how the amplifiers had to be rated. Those same amplifiers now went from 50 watts RMS x 2 @ 4 ohms rated at 11.5vdc to 100 watts RMS x 2 @ 4 ohms with 13.8vdc, but IASCA still recognized them as being 100 watt amplifiers.
> 
> That's how they became known as "cheater" amps.


I thought the "cheater" amps the era were considered as such because IASCA only used an amp's 4ohm ratings for competition and some of these "cheater" amps such as the Orion HCCA, MTX MTA, and PPI Pro Mos/Pro Art amps were capable of putting out significant power down to 1ohm (or lower)..not because of a voltage rating differential...this where the regulated and unregulated power supplies came into play during competition use...

If memory serves me, the HCCA 225 was labeled as a 50w competition amplifier by IASCA standard (2x25w @ 4ohm) but could put out 2x200 @ 1/2ohm or 1x400 @ 1ohm...


----------



## 14642

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Speaking subjectively, depending on how loud and low you want them to play, you are right, since frequency response is the main subjective determining factor, and old school speakers could get that right (as can good new school speakers). However, I would bet my whole system on the JBL's playing lower and cleaner than either one of those options, and at a higher output. I would also bet that even below the linear excursion limits, the JBL's would be cleaner, distortion wise.


Well...they did beat the Utopias and the Hertz Mille for an EISA award in Europe.


----------



## 14642

I'm not buying the suggestion that the old school stuff is better, because it isn't. Maybe you like it better because you're more familiar with it, or because it's what you're used to. 

I think a 1966 Jaguar XKE is much more beautiful with much more character than a new Jag, but by every performance and longevity measure, the new one smokes the old one. 

That doesn't mean that all new stuff is better than all old stuff, but as I said, today's best is much better than yesterday's best. I've bought products, installed products, developed products, explained how products work, tested products, and tested products to destruction alongside some of the best engineers in the industry for nearly 30 years. My opinion counts.


----------



## jmacdadd

As for the amps of old, I'd say IMHO it's because of the following 2 statements:

1. Made in the USA
2. Built to military specifications/standards and/or built with military grade components

Aside from the sheer quality of the build and output, the components do have a shelf life, but the last two statements I have regarding old school amps are:

1. Built to last (not be thrown away)
2. You paid for it (expensive) and got what you paid for

These amps are investments in our audio future...and, from a quality perspective, I would rather buy a 15 year young old school amp for a fraction of the original price even if it costs more than something on the market today that was made overseas.


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

jmacdadd said:


> 1. Made in the USA


Not always a good thing. i can name some real **** products that carry the 'Made in the good old US of A badge".




jmacdadd said:


> 2. Built to military specifications/standards and/or built with military grade components


I can name quite a few "lesser' brands that advertise that they use Mil spec pcb's and components. I can also name quite a few revered old school favorites whose gear doesn't use mil spec parts. 



jmacdadd said:


> 1. Built to last (not be thrown away


You can still find that. Not everything new is meant to be thrown away in a year. The components I bought to assemble my PC will last a decade easy. Most of them come with a 2 or 3 year warranty against defect. 

Also while these aren't pure ****. I bet they were made to make a quick buck as apposed to a quality product to last a lifetime.




















jmacdadd said:


> 2. You paid for it (expensive) and got what you paid for


So I guess when you pay 2K on a new Helix A2 Competition you don't get what you pay for? 



jmacdadd said:


> These amps are investments in our audio future...and, from a quality perspective, I would rather buy a 15 year young old school amp for a fraction of the original price even if it costs more than something on the market today that was made overseas.


If that's your opinion then great but that doesn't make the old stuff better than new. Far from it, it just makes it a better fit for you.


----------



## jmacdadd

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm not buying the suggestion that the old school stuff is better, because it isn't.
> 
> That doesn't mean that all new stuff is better than all old stuff, but as I said, today's best is much better than yesterday's best.


For the sake of this argument, I don't believe we are trying to compare today's best against yesterday's best...it's more like comparing yesterday's 1,200w amp (say an A/B PPI A1200 at $1,299) to today's 1,200w amp (say a Class D Audio Technix 1200.1 at $259).

Both amps are built well for their class but the A1200 was built better. Period.

Will the Class D put out the same power at a fraction of the price? Sure. Will it sound better? Debatable...it will be louder due to on board processing and bass boost, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a better amp. Would I rather spend twice the retail on this Class D to buy a beat up A1200? Definitely.

The real question for me, from a value perspective, will the Class D amp last 15 or more years? Probably not.

Back in 1992 I was making $4.25 an hour slinging roast beef sandwiches at Arby's and I bought a pair of $99 Craig MA2160 amps to run mono to each my JBL 15s because I couldn't afford an A600...today, those MA2160 amps are only $35 new shipped (1/3 of new in 1992) when you can find them but I have seen PPI A600s pull near full retail because they're quality amps...and they're beautiful to look at (thank you to Carolyn Hall Young for being so creative and ahead of her time).

I still have about 20 each of the PPI Mosfet and Art Series amps in my collection as well as multiple signal processors...none of them mint as those were sold during harder times...I have thought about selling them all off so that others can enjoy them as none of mine have seen power since 2007...


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

jmacdadd said:


> For the sake of this argument, I don't believe we are trying to compare today's best against yesterday's best..it's more like comparing yesterday's 1,200w amp (say an A/B PPI A1200 at $1,299) to today's 1,200w amp (say a Class D Audio Technix 1200.1 at $259).


No, just no. Yes a 15-20 year old amp that cost over $1K will probably perform better than a $300 amp today. That's not an apples to apples comparison and that's not what I was getting at when I started this thread.



jmacdadd said:


> Both amps are built well for their class but the A1200 was built better. Period.


 That's arguing that a 88 Testarossa had better craftsmanship and performance than a 93 Metro. No ****, I'd hope it would. Though does that same 88 Testarossa have higher built and performance than a 2013 458 Italia, you bet your ass it doesn't.

Same for that Art series. Yeah it will beat a cheap budget amp but will it beat an equally as pricy amp made today, that is the question.


----------



## jmacdadd

Hi-FiDelity said:


> No, just no. Yes a 15-20 year old amp that cost over $1K will probably perform better than a $300 amp today. That's not an apples to apples comparison and that's not what I was getting at when I started this thread.
> 
> Same for that Art series. Yeah it will beat a cheap budget amp but will it beat an equally as pricy amp made today, that is the question.


You're absolutely correct...you started this thread looking for the opinions of old schoolers as to why the old school is better mentality persists. If you don't like what I have to say, then don't ask for my opinion, and definitely don't argue with me about yours. That's pointless. Just read it, shake your head, and move on to the next post.

Rebutting my 1,200w rms to 1,200w rms amp comparison against a Testarossa vs a Metro was ludicrous. At least my comparison was an rms to rms comparison and not a 1,200w rms amp to a 1,200w "rated amp" (that really puts out 100w rms). There's an apples to oranges comparison.

For an apples to apples comparison, is a Helix A2 Competition amp a thing of beauty? Absolutely. Is that a fair comparison against an A1200? Not really, IMHO as the Helix A2 offers a Class A 8V input as well as on board signal processing. If I was going to compare the two, I would do it on my Clarion Pro Audio CD7770 with a 1.8V preout and add signal processing to the A1200 to balance the equation...would the Helix win the battle? I just don't know...


----------



## jmacdadd

Hi-FiDelity said:


>


I have one of these amps in my basement (an Art Series knock off)...I can send it you if you would like to have it.


----------



## RNBRAD

Old school quality was pretty deep, today it's rather shallow. Manufacturer fraud in the industry has been and is rampant, non compliance in the industry is at an all time high. I can no longer buy 99% OFC advertised wire, I have no clue what I'm getting. Same thing with amp ratings, reason they came out with CEA compliance. The capacitor ratings today are rediculous and these company's should be sued for fraud. So much fraud and over rating in the industry. Consumer confidence has waned, we no longer know what is good today. We see that example here on this forum all over the place. Tons of collectors and users of OS gear like no other type of electronic products I have ever seen. We've been inundated with crap that use to be very good to high end gear. Unfortunately this has effected buyer confidence on the entire car audio industry. What good brands are still good? Not everyone knows that. That was me just a few years ago. I had no clue the industry flipped.

I still use new stuff when applicable, but I am here cause I've learned the hard way and feel these newer car audio offering require much more scrutiny than what was required in the years past, as reasons stated above. I've never bought so much crap in this industry as I have in the last few years. Highly disappointed in products that were once good are a fraction of the quality they once were. An industry living on a name once sought after. Old school bias? The industry created it. Not everyone is to blame, but everyone has been a victim. Old school bias are those going with a safe bet. A product that will deliver as expected. Why play Russian roulette when you don't have to?


----------



## 14642

Hmmm...so the real attraction for some appears to be that OS gear is cheap. That I can live with.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^that, and no end user efforts required in the way of research.


----------



## ChrisB

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hmmm...so the real attraction for some appears to be that OS gear is cheap. That I can live with.


When I was in my nostalgic phase, that is exactly why I went for the old school gear. I remembered all those amplifiers that I lusted over in high school, yet couldn't afford, so I purchased them. I think I paid $50 for a Zapco Z100S2, and I purchased most of my Orion amplifiers for less than $100 each. 

The only old school amplifiers that weren't a bargain were made by Linear Power. Even though, I did get a good deal on some of them locally from friends who left them in their closets or attics for the last 10 years.


----------



## 14642

Anyone want to buy an old Motorola Brick phone? It's big and sturdy.


----------



## ChrisB

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Anyone want to buy an old Motorola Brick phone? It's big and sturdy.


Don't laugh at this, but my grandfather (may he RIP) ran a bag phone until the cell company FORCED him to switch. Want to know why? Because he did a lot of fishing in remote areas and his bag phone ALWAYS had a signal when all of our phones couldn't even pick up a tower. He was pissed the day he had to give that phone up.


----------



## RNBRAD

One mans junk is another mans treasure.


----------



## Darth SQ

jmacdadd said:


> For the sake of this argument, I don't believe we are trying to compare today's best against yesterday's best...it's more like comparing yesterday's 1,200w amp (say an A/B PPI A1200 at $1,299) to today's 1,200w amp (say a Class D Audio Technix 1200.1 at $259).
> 
> Both amps are built well for their class but the A1200 was built better. Period.
> 
> Will the Class D put out the same power at a fraction of the price? Sure. Will it sound better? Debatable...it will be louder due to on board processing and bass boost, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a better amp. Would I rather spend twice the retail on this Class D to buy a beat up A1200? Definitely.
> 
> The real question for me, from a value perspective, will the Class D amp last 15 or more years? Probably not.
> 
> *Back in 1992 I was making $4.25 an hour slinging roast beef sandwiches at Arby's and I bought a pair of $99 Craig MA2160 amps to run mono to each my JBL 15s because I couldn't afford an A600...today, those MA2160 amps are only $35 new shipped (1/3 of new in 1992) when you can find them but I have seen PPI A600s pull near full retail because they're quality amps...and they're beautiful to look at (thank you to Carolyn Hall Young for being so creative and ahead of her time).
> 
> I still have about 20 each of the PPI Mosfet and Art Series amps in my collection as well as multiple signal processors...none of them mint as those were sold during harder times...I have thought about selling them all off so that others can enjoy them as none of mine have seen power since 2007...[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> ^^Above in bold^^
> 
> 
> Ditto.
> Thanks CHY!
> You did some amazingly beautiful work on the heatsink designs and graphics.
> Thank god the engineers were able to meet the same level of your talents internally.
> Here's another thought.
> When I finally do finish my 3+ year project, I guarantee many that are following my build will come to see it just for the amps alone.
> When installed using the factory spacers, endplates, and component shrouds, they make and incredible visual statement.
> Details make the difference and PPI knew this.
> I can't remember anyone at an event ever stating that about a Mosconi, Arc, etc....
> 
> Show me one amp company today that is providing accessories like OS PPI did. :shrug:
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## RNBRAD

Another aspect of old school...Anyone can build a system with ARC or Mosconi, but build a system with complete OS PPI. It's like being passed on the road by a 2013 Mustang Shelby GT versus a 67 Mustang Shelby GT. The 1st I don't take a second look, the second I crap my drawers.


----------



## Darth SQ

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hmmm...so the real attraction for some appears to be that OS gear is cheap. That I can live with.


My personal experience with that statement is no.
Almost every one of the PPI Art amps that I purchased was stated to be in excellent working condition by the seller.
All but two needed actual repairs.
Then there was the cost to recondition all twelve of my Arts back to top operating condition with new caps and other components that deteriorate with time.

Here's a link to my recondition thread if you're interested in seeing what that entails.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...eries-2-amplifier-reconditioning-repairs.html


So here's the actual costs in my experience:

1-Initial cost of the used amp plus shipping.
2-Repair cost to failed or failing components.
3-Reconditioning costs to weak/old components.
4-Expenses getting the amps back and forth from my OS technician.
5-Two full years to complete the above tasks.

In retrospect, I must be nucking futs.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

ChrisB said:


> Don't laugh at this, but my grandfather (may he RIP) ran a bag phone until the cell company FORCED him to switch. Want to know why? Because he did a lot of fishing in remote areas and his bag phone ALWAYS had a signal when all of our phones couldn't even pick up a tower. He was pissed the day he had to give that phone up.


5 watts output compared to today's 1.5 watts.
Big big difference.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## 14642

FWIW, I get the old school thing. I have a POS 77 VW bus in my driveway that will run, one day. By the time I get it finished, it'll have cost me as much as buying a 5 year old Honda Odyssey. It'll get worse gas mileage, be far more difficult to drive, break down more often and be much more expensive to maintain. 

I would NEVER attempt to make the argument that it's a better car than the Odyssey, just that I like it better because it has more character. 

I also live in a house built in 1895 that requires constant upkeep. Why? Because it has character and i get the impression that whoever built it cared a great deal about how it was made. That makes me feel good because I care how things are made. My house couldn't be built with today's materials and methods and I'd bet that there aren't very many people left who even know how to build a house like mine. That doesn't make it better.

It isn't reasonable to say that new products are crap simply because you like the old ones better.


----------



## miniSQ

i think a lot of it is nostalgia...i doubt you see many tweens or 20 somethings looking for old school gear. Its similar to the muscle car thing.


I will admit that there would be zero SQ difference between a soundstream class A amp and say a decent amp built today, but if i have a choice...i am going to "enjoy" the soundstream better. 

Also part of it IS price...i can afford just about any of the old school amps out there if i want, but i am not sure i am going to drop a G on a mosconi amp. Although 15 years ago i had no problem dropping that on an xtant amp. 

IOW...its different reasons for different people.


----------



## GlassWolf

Hi-FiDelity said:


> Now I can get the idea of wanting to build a setup using components that you've always dreamed about but could never afford back in the day. Hell, I can even get the idea of buying them based on pure nostalgia (I do the same thing with video games). What I don't get is the notion that if you want anything that's any good at a "fair" price you have to buy old school cause anything new aside is complete junk. I just don't get this mentality, just like I don't get the mentality that all american cars are junk and you have to buy foreign to get a "real" car. Now before any one get's there jimmies rustled I'm not anti old school gear, I fully enjoy looking at all the photos of you guy's old school collections and builds.
> 
> What's your guys take on this and why do you think this mentality persists.


I prefer products made in the USA for one. I also prefer the style of a lot of older amplifiers like the old Orions compared to the overly chromed out, LED filled junk from China on the market today. Modern technology is great in some aspects, and in others, it hasn't really advanced all that much. Class D? Sure. A/B amps? Not that different these days, especially if you don't need a built-in crossover etc because you're running fully active with a DSP.
Also, I just like old, solid-state TTB design. It's a lot easier for me to repair if I have problems than newer SMD boards are.


----------



## SaturnSL1

miniSQ said:


> i think a lot of it is nostalgia...i doubt you see many tweens or 20 somethings looking for old school gear. Its similar to the muscle car thing.
> 
> 
> I will admit that there would be zero SQ difference between a soundstream class A amp and say a decent amp built today, but if i have a choice...i am going to "enjoy" the soundstream better.
> 
> Also part of it IS price...i can afford just about any of the old school amps out there if i want, but i am not sure i am going to drop a G on a mosconi amp. Although 15 years ago i had no problem dropping that on an xtant amp.
> 
> IOW...its different reasons for different people.


I'm 20 and I love old school amps, pre-WWII cars, and all kinds of old **** 

Something about the past that allures me.


----------



## dealer

miniSQ said:


> i think a lot of it is nostalgia...i doubt you see many tweens or 20 somethings looking for old school gear. Its similar to the muscle car thing.
> 
> 
> I will admit that there would be zero SQ difference between a soundstream class A amp and say a decent amp built today, but if i have a choice...i am going to "enjoy" the soundstream better.
> 
> Also part of it IS price...i can afford just about any of the old school amps out there if i want, but i am not sure i am going to drop a G on a mosconi amp. Although 15 years ago i had no problem dropping that on an xtant amp.
> 
> IOW...its different reasons for different people.


Ditto, 
Only two things on the Soundstream reference (no pun intended). They had no clue on powersupply building, but they did have a bypass built into the preamp that would eliminate the phase flip for bridging purposes, this was good for the signal path.


----------



## dealer

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> FWIW, I get the old school thing. I have a POS 77 VW bus in my driveway that will run, one day. By the time I get it finished, it'll have cost me as much as buying a 5 year old Honda Odyssey. It'll get worse gas mileage, be far more difficult to drive, break down more often and be much more expensive to maintain.
> 
> I would NEVER attempt to make the argument that it's a better car than the Odyssey, just that I like it better because it has more character.
> 
> I also live in a house built in 1895 that requires constant upkeep. Why? Because it has character and i get the impression that whoever built it cared a great deal about how it was made. That makes me feel good because I care how things are made. My house couldn't be built with today's materials and methods and I'd bet that there aren't very many people left who even know how to build a house like mine. That doesn't make it better.
> 
> It isn't reasonable to say that new products are crap simply because you like the old ones better.


Judge each on it's own merits, strengths and weaknesses.

Intrigued with what your sig says about upcoming announcements, always liked your work Andy, good luck.


----------



## BFYTW

Hi-FiDelity said:


> No, just no. Yes a 15-20 year old amp that cost over $1K will probably perform better than a $300 amp today. That's not an apples to apples comparison and that's not what I was getting at when I started this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> That's arguing that a 88 Testarossa had better craftsmanship and performance than a 93 Metro. No ****, I'd hope it would. Though does that same 88 Testarossa have higher built and performance than a 2013 458 Italia, you bet your ass it doesn't.
> 
> Same for that Art series. Yeah it will beat a cheap budget amp but will it beat an equally as pricy amp made today, that is the question.


OK I can see where your going with that but I think the problem that most of us old schoolers have is this. If you want to use cars as comparison it would be like saying Ferrari went from making an 88 Testarrosa to building cardboard boxes with a Yugo 3 cylinder engine. WTH? Yes. there are still quality products out there but "Ferrari" doesn't build um like that anymore. This is true with about 95% of the old school brands. U can't get an AMC Javelin anymore. but u can get a new Subaru STI.. If u follow me. Would never say the older stuff is necessarily better. but its a true statement that "they just don't build them like that anymore"


----------



## BFYTW

miniSQ said:


> i think a lot of it is nostalgia...i doubt you see many tweens or 20 somethings looking for old school gear. Its similar to the muscle car thing.
> 
> 
> I will admit that there would be zero SQ difference between a soundstream class A amp and say a decent amp built today, but if i have a choice...i am going to "enjoy" the soundstream better.
> 
> Also part of it IS price...i can afford just about any of the old school amps out there if i want, but i am not sure i am going to drop a G on a mosconi amp. Although 15 years ago i had no problem dropping that on an xtant amp.
> 
> IOW...its different reasons for different people.


^^^^ AGREED.. way different priorities at 40 than when I was 20. I want a nice setup but not willing to hock the family to get it anymore.


----------



## djPerfectTrip

It could be because the old school stuff has withstood the test of time and there is also more information for research than new stuff. Personally, I'm really apprehensive about buying used electronics, or even refurbed really...Just one of my things, so I will most likely buy new on all my stuff.


----------



## GlassWolf

djPerfectTrip said:


> It could be because the old school stuff has withstood the test of time and there is also more information for research than new stuff. Personally, I'm really apprehensive about buying used electronics, or even refurbed really...Just one of my things, so I will most likely buy new on all my stuff.


That's where being an electrical engineer really helps. Old stuff was almost all solid state. No SMD boards, so opening one up that you got for cheap because it didn't work becomes an easy flip or fix and keep.. usually you just swap out some darlingtons or transistors in the finals, re-cap the amp, and you have one probably better than new.n If you don't know your way around a circuit board though, I can understand the apprehension entirely. It's not unlike buying a "fixer upper" car or house if you're not a mechanic or contractor.


----------



## coolmind

I love American cars for the muscle character they have(size and engine!!).
I am a computer technician and i am in computers and video games from my 9 years(thats 33 years).I play some times with ZX Spectum witch was my second computer ,(the first was a commodore vic 20)that a friend owns,but honestly i prefer to play crysis or something like that in a modern console or Pc.
In sound there are some old school masterpieces that sound far away better than the new staff and you want them.The owner knows that, and as you know the hobby has no limits.They think if you don't want to buy it somebody else will do.


----------



## scoobysmak

I have been reading a few threads on here but this seemed the best "topic" to post under about my feelings towards OS gear. 

Overall I think the use of cheaper parts has had a significant impact on the newer stuff, it affected the older designs as well but maybe not as much. Now that everything is digital, if its broke you won't get any output. Before you might have had a component that had failed or was weak but the unit still worked, maybe just not liked designed. Some people might not have noticed it was defective because the rest of the system was thrown together just to make a loud noise. 

As a whole here are my thoughts:

Head Units, newer head units have many more features than I care to have (note I do not have a Facebook account so having the option on my head unit is just plain silly) but it does bring some great advances like having a built in DSP and navigation into the unit. It also helps that some of these self tune themselves, the option to look online also helps Vs the trained ear back in the day or the RTA that you couldn't find. Overall I think they are better if you buy a quality unit, many more features and stuff that will save you time in the long run. 

Signal Processors, this area is way bigger than when I saw my first audio control EQL. Now you have units that time delay, many today have features that I won't use but understand why they are there, like line level inputs. Again I think we have advanced if in the long run if you buy a quality unit.

Speakers, I am a bit on the fence with this. I remember going into my local audio dealer and selecting a head unit, amp and speakers. I won't forget the first time I listened to a set of MB Quart's two way component speakers, then to set in an MB Quart equipped car was just that much better. Because most local dealers have gone buy the wayside the best I can do is best buy. I just don't get the same effect in the best buy showroom that I did in my local dealers showroom (much less the car). This is not really fair but stating my opinion. I do believe speakers today might last longer due to the materials used, this could also give better power handling as well. I will have to say I will run new speakers mainly because the old ones have fallen apart due to old age (one day it will happen to me so I guess I can't complain too much).

Amps, well here is my opinion, to me OS is better. Some of this is based on that same experience that I referenced in the speaker section. Maybe this is why the old speakers have sounded better to me, the amp they used. Unfortunately Best Buy doesn't always stock high quality equipment so unless I know someone that has the gear I am interested have to mail order something and send it back if I don't like it (overall I have a problem with this but I can only blame people not willing to pay the markup for having a location and installation shop that wants to provide a valuable service, that rant is for a different thread). I like the fact with my OS amps if it breaks I can get most of it fixed and be like new. Not drop another $750 and higher for a new unit that the warranty expires in 90 days. Amps were rated differently back in the day, my Orion HCCA and XTR series are based I think off either 11 or 12V, not the 14.4V as of today (I think most cars I have seen only put out around 13.9 so you already took a hit if that is the case). I would love to say my old school stuff sounds better but honestly each person is different so what is an apple like taste to some might be more like an orange.

Overall this personal difference I think changed the car audio industry to have a lower level of sound quality but higher SPL. Someone just enters competition for the first time and gets graded lower than someone he thinks he should have beaten. Now he thinks the judge is out of his mind but likes car audio and wants to win, the SPL meter overall doesn't lie and everyone knows that the RTA meter tune sounds a little flat to most people. They now complete for SPL bragging rights. Needless to say if this is what people want the companies will give it to you. I can make an amp that puts out 1200 Watts for a short burp but since they don't have to maintain this I won't worry about upgrading the rest of the amp to handle it for extend periods of time. Kinda like buying a motor for a race car. You need to be specific to its use. An 800 HP drag motor probably wouldn't last very long in a NASCAR race running for around 4 hours. Many people might not even notice the sound quality difference since they downloaded something on a memory stick at 64 KBits/sec and head to the car to play it.

I think some of the old school mentality is coming back but until sound quality is the primary reason to install a quality system the industry has to keep working at it . This is just my opinion but my plan is to run new everything but my amps.


----------



## cajunner

aww, man..

not this thread..


okay, here's a guess:

old school amps are the ancestral spirits of today's "careful" amp designs. 

if it's being produced in China, it's not a part of that ancestry. And I don't want to get in that debate of parts are all made in China today, you just assemble elsewhere, etc.\

the point I'm making is that old school stuff is the anti Audiobahn, the anti-bling, the anti-chromed out, plasma ball, blue LED display being spread out on a plate for the buying public.

old school represents a time when the baubles and the bling, were inside the case, and not all over the cheaply made exterior.

shiny objects being delivered for their "pop" are cutting the corners on the part that counts, and they deliver their "poop" as a result.


and yes, part placement machines and tested SMD bits notwithstanding, the old school is filled with through hole components that were graded to a percentage decimal point, not a percentage point.

.5% metal film resistors, military spec, love the buzzwords, seeing gold bands or blue in the pre-amps, maybe a lot of square caps don't do anything for others, but for me, WIMA meant something better...

oh well, there I go agains.


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## CIGARGUY

It's a little bit of nostalgia and a little bit of experience for me. I had amps from all of the major players back in my 20's. There were tons of great companies doing things right back then. Today, now that I'm almost 40 (how the heck did that happen), I still want a nice sounding system but it's not a too priority for me. I do have good memories of using the old Orion HCCA amps and Oz Audio speakers. They were awesome! But, I do realize technology changes and progresses. Sometimes that's for the betterment of the industry. Sometimes it's not. I'm looking at newer technology now simply because I live in Florida and can't have amps that produce lots of heat or take up much space. I've got my eye on a handful of the micro class D pieces that will run cool in an already hot car and allow me to transport my daughters stroller and 73 other things we have to take everywhere we go. Would I prefer some old school stuff? Yes. I know it. I like it. Will I use it? Highly unlikely.


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## 1996blackmax

I agree on the nostalgia, & what I grew up with. Now I am actually looking into the micro class d amps to have more room & more channels to work with.


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## cleansoundz

Old school all the way around is fun but technology keeps on improving and quality is improved with the higher end companies. Tru, Mcintosh, Mosconi and other companies give you that old school quality. Full range class D has come a long way. Today's amps are high efficiency, small size, lower noise floor and excellent sound quality. Those qualities do not make old school look so attractive anymore.


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## SilkySlim

cleansoundz said:


> Old school all the way around is fun but technology keeps on improving and quality is improved with the higher end companies. Tru, Mcintosh, Mosconi and other companies give you that old school quality. Full range class D has come a long way. Today's amps are high efficiency, small size, lower noise floor and excellent sound quality. Those qualities do not make old school look so attractive anymore.


I agree that class D has come along quite a ways and it is efficient. 
I don't feel like it has kept improving. I wish I could say that. I think that they have improved on price, manufacturing cost but when you factor total cost of ownership it's just not close. The list goes on over inflated numbers, crappy warranties, no support, when something breaks its practically disposable, propriety components with no support, little support from dealers and manufacturers sorry I don't see the massive improvements. There are a few exceptions! JL audio, Zed, Linear Power, Morel, Dynaudio, Image Dynamics, Audio Control, Zuki, Zapco, Arc, Helix, Mosconi and a few others. To me these guys are the exception not the rule. 
I usually don't do this but I will put some on blast highly disappointed in earthquake and mmats. Mmats had the worst customer service I have ever seen or experienced in over 25yrs of in and out of the electronics industry. It was truly unbelievable not just from a powerless employee ether. 

It has become commoditized and the industry has lost passion. There is very little difference between gear. The industry has lost the passion for innovation and excitement to create new levels of product/performance. Marketing has suffered you have to really search for good products. The market size has shrunk because of more integrated stereos and better basic factory options. There isn't much choice, knowledge, or support from local dealers when you can find one. Even best buy's car audio section is more GPS and accessories than amps and speakers. When something becomes a commodity the customer loses. It becomes a race to make a few pennies on the way to zero. 
I am sorry other than efficiency, size, and cost I haven't seen or heard the improvements. Even the better brands other than speakers must things sound very similar. Neutral, bland, dry lifeless, clinical etc. With one exception processors the computing power and software algorithms were not available digitally with old school so tuning has made a massive leap ahead in ease, options, power, compact, etc. You can mask many things with this power!!! When used correctly. 
From the outside looking in it doesn't seem that it's so much better or improved. 
I can put old school in it usually works and if it doesn't I can have it repaired even if I can't do it myself. I love audio and I want the industry to be there and thrive so I can enjoy music and a concert where ever I am. I just want them to give me something that works and works for a long time, something to enjoy and wow me when I hear it. I want that OMG factor. That wow my reference point had completely changed. I have never experienced anything like that before! like wow why should I buy a concert ticket it is better here feeling. 

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## SilkySlim

cleansoundz said:


> Old school all the way around is fun but technology keeps on improving and quality is improved with the higher end companies. Tru, Mcintosh, Mosconi and other companies give you that old school quality. Full range class D has come a long way. Today's amps are high efficiency, small size, lower noise floor and excellent sound quality. Those qualities do not make old school look so attractive anymore.


Sorry to rant but what class D have a much lower noise floor? Most I've seen haven't and don't come close to old school? Just s/n alone is usually 10-20db more signal than noise in old school. You rarely see new amps in the low 90's if trust them most are in the low to mid 80's. Where as most quality old school amps are in the low 100's - to low/mid 110's. I not saying this is the end all be all spec and that it means everything. Please tell me I may want to try it if I haven't already. 

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## RNBRAD

SilkySlim said:


> Sorry to rant but what class D have a much lower noise floor? Most I've seen haven't and don't come close to old school? Just s/n alone is usually 10-20db more signal than noise in old school. You rarely see new amps in the low 90's if trust them most are in the low to mid 80's. Where as most quality old school amps are in the low 100's - to low/mid 110's. I not saying this is the end all be all spec and that it means everything. Please tell me I may want to try it if I haven't already.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk


My experience with old school amps s/n were around mid 90's, like the RF stuff and anything above 100 was rare. You could find some 105 to 110 in Alpine and Mcintosh. Current well made class D's are mid 90's with exceptional distortion ratings rivaling the best A/B amps ever made. Example Alpine PDX line. 

It's kinda like LCD versus tube technology in televisions just a decade ago. Sure when LCD first came out it was smaller more efficient yet lacking in picture quality of the best tubes. Today LCD technology is the "gold standard" in television technology. Soon class D will be the same and in some cases already is and class A/B will be substandard OS technology. You will always have manufacturers that will take a superior technology and make it substandard but we shouldn't look at that, take the best example of a class D and compare it to the best example of a class A/B. If you want a class A/B amp, better hang onto what you got. Having used arguably the best class D technology in Alpine and arguably the best class A/B technology in McIntosh, I still will never go back to class A/B just like I will never go back to a tube television. Too many benifits to a class D and the benefits keep improving.


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## Ultimateherts

RNBRAD said:


> My experience with old school amps s/n were around mid 90's, like the RF stuff and anything above 100 was rare. You could find some 105 to 110 in Alpine and Mcintosh. Current well made class D's are mid 90's with exceptional distortion ratings rivaling the best A/B amps ever made. Example Alpine PDX line.
> 
> It's kinda like LCD versus tube technology in televisions just a decade ago. Sure when LCD first came out it was smaller more efficient yet lacking in picture quality of the best tubes. Today LCD technology is the "gold standard" in television technology. Soon class D will be the same and in some cases already is and class A/B will be substandard OS technology. You will always have manufacturers that will take a superior technology and make it substandard but we shouldn't look at that, take the best example of a class D and compare it to the best example of a class A/B. If you want a class A/B amp, better hang onto what you got. Having used arguably the best class D technology in Alpine and arguably the best class A/B technology in McIntosh, I still will never go back to class A/B just like I will never go back to a tube television. Too many benifits to a class D and the benefits keep improving.


Not to go off topic, but LCD tv's are not the gold standard! OLED with trample it in every category. Plasma even beats it in every category, but power use.

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## Ultimateherts

RNBRAD said:


> It's kinda like LCD versus tube technology in televisions just a decade ago. Sure when LCD first came out it was smaller more efficient yet lacking in picture quality of the best tubes. Today LCD technology is the "gold standard" in television technology.


Not to go off topic, but LCD tv's are not the gold standard! OLED with trample it in every category. Plasma even beats it in every category, but power use.

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## RNBRAD

Ultimateherts said:


> Not to go off topic, but LCD tv's are not the gold standard! OLED with trample it in every category. Plasma even beats it in every category, but power use.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk


Oled is really not affordable and of course it's even a newer technology than LCD or plasma which it may replace both in the long run, such as my point in class a/b versus class D. As for LCD vs plasma, long debated but the tide just changed as Panasonic will tell you their new 4k LED is better than any Plasma ever made and they are the leader in Plasma technology.


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## Ultimateherts

Double post

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## Ultimateherts

RNBRAD said:


> Oled is really not affordable and of course it's even a newer technology than LCD or plasma which it may replace both in the long run, such as my point in class a/b versus class D. As for LCD vs plasma, long debated but the tide just changed as Panasonic will tell you their new 4k LED is better than any Plasma ever made and they are the leader in Plasma technology.


1) There is nothing broadcasted in 4K.

2) There are very few movies in 4K for the home consumer. Even Sony's download service is very limited.

3) LED can not match the black levels of Plasma, which Plasma can not OLED's black levels.

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## SuperDaveAPK

I miss my GX280 and external bridging module with the special DIN cable. Had it running 2 ohm mono into a pair of 15" Lanzars. Ahhh, loved the 80s.


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## RNBRAD

Not sure the black level comparison statistically speaking, I've only heard the new LED panel with controlled lighting is really close almost equal to the best plasmas. Panasonic was the 1st plasma to supersede the quality of the Pioneer Elite Plasma, now they are telling us their 4k LED is better than their plasma which was the best in the world. Go argue your point with the manufacturer, cause I'm sure they will tell you there is a lot more to TV then just black levels.

Just like SACD and DVD-A is the best audio format regardless of availability to the consumer. Almost non existent in many cases but doesn't negate it's ability or potential, same as the 4k. When 1080p came out there wasn't much broadcasted or blu ray available. Look at potential just like class D. I'm not going to count OLED out as possibly the standard if prices drop and LCD can't match the quality in time. But doesn't matter how you slice it, as of this year LCD is superior to the best plasmas ever made and that's from the horses mouth, not just a consumer opinion.

If were sharing opinions I have a TOTL Panasonic plasma but think my Sharp Quatron is better, rating wise maybe not but for me yes. I just like the brightness if an LED display but the plasma was for my bedroom I watch at night.


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## CIGARGUY

Some of it for me is also just nostalgia. When I was in my 20's and very into the hobby I made lots of good memories when I had certain components. Some of the appeal of these old school pieces is just reliving some of those good memories. Also, there are a few of those "out of reach" pieces from back then that are now affordable. Those are just a matter of filling a long-term desire for a "golden cup" item.


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## mmiller

It's the same reason why people collect and restore classic cars.....


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## cleansoundz

Agreed. I will not part with my 300ZX even though the car is 23 years old. I am not sure it is even about performance as it is nostalgia.


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