# 150wrms x 4, should i bridge it an buy a small amp for the horns?



## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

Hey guys,

I have zapco 1000.4 (150wrmsx4 @ 4 ohms), a pair of seas w18nx's (8 ohms) and i just purchased a set of eric stevens' full body horns with the ultra drivers (used). I'd love to not have to purchase another amp but i'm concerned about pushing ~75wrms to the horns. should i bite the bullet and get a smaller (zapco 200.2 -- 50w rms x2 @ 4 ohms) amp? 

thanks,

scott


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Just be smart with your gains and you'll be fine. I've run plenty of 150wpc amps to horns and they never saw close to that. Assuming your xover is set properly and you're not listening to clipped signals, it will be unbearably loud before you ever approach damaging them.


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

thank you for the quick reply. i was more concerned about how well they'll blend more than damaging them. I'm running an older pioneer DEH-P800PRS


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

scott_fx said:


> thank you for the quick reply. i was more concerned about how well they'll blend more than damaging them. I'm running an older pioneer DEH-P800PRS


I can't remember if that deck has level control or not on each pair of channels. With the gains down low on the amp, coupled with levels down on the deck, you should be ok. I would be more concerned with getting them to blend with a lower efficiency mid like the SEAS in general rather than because of the amp constraining level matching capabilities. Lots of guys run horns with conventional mids with good results though; just not my cup of tea. 

Another thing to keep in mind is the lowest HPF on that deck is 1.25khz, which is fine for those horns but that's the lowest you'll be able to cross them.


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## squeak9798 (Apr 20, 2005)

scott_fx said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I have zapco 1000.4 (150wrmsx4 @ 4 ohms), a pair of seas w18nx's (8 ohms) and i just purchased a set of eric stevens' full body horns with the ultra drivers (used). I'd love to not have to purchase another amp but i'm concerned about pushing ~75wrms to the horns. should i bite the bullet and get a smaller (zapco 200.2 -- 50w rms x2 @ 4 ohms) amp?
> 
> ...


Personally, I would. You would have to really dial down the amp/system for the horns on that amp, been there done that. Had my H701 set at like -20 or something crazy with 50w or 75w on horns (been a few years), it was close to being muted on the channels...LOL. And frankly I would rather have the extra power on the mids where it's needed than on the horns where it's not. 

I vote small 2nd amp for the horns and bridge that amp to the Seas


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

another bridged 4 channel for headroom & dynamics


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Yep, 1000.4 on the mids and 750.2 on the horns (turned way low to supress any noise an amp might have) 

Kelvin


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

750.2? isn't that crazy power for horns and will just leave me in the same spot? it'll put out 175 x2 (4ohms) i was thinking more along the lines of a zapco 220.2 (50 x2 ). I have read that 25 wrms is more than enough.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

scott_fx said:


> 750.2? isn't that crazy power for horns and will just leave me in the same spot? it'll put out 175 x2 (4ohms) i was thinking more along the lines of a zapco 220.2 (50 x2 ). I have read that 25 wrms is more than enough.


Leaving your gain at the minimum (and lower it even more with the processor) will really annihilate any noise you might have in your system through the really sensitive horn. 

That's what I'd do but that's just me though  

Or at least get the 350.2 one. 

Kelvin


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

hmm. the size of the 200.2 is kind of ideal (for my budget as well). would it be a mistake to go with that one? the ultras have 107db sensitivity where as the w18nx's have an 87db sensitivity.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I think you'll be happier (and get more out of the horns) if you spent the extra money on some more efficient mids and kept the one amp. I'm all about headroom, but anything more than 50-75w for a horn seems a bit wasteful- especially when you're trying to pair them with small format mids that have a 20db efficiency deficit, that you'll never make up no matter how hard you drive a bridged 1000.4 to them. They're 87.5db sens at 2.83V, so closer to an 84-85db sensitivity at 1w/1m. You'd have to run 125-150w to a mid to reach 107db, where your horn will be using 1w. Doesn't sound like the best match, although again, I know lots of guys do this. 

If you can fit an 8, I would look into a pair of JBL 2118H, B&C 8NDL51, 18Sound 8MB420, or something similar, which are far better suited to be paired with horns and would allow you to run the single amp. Just my $.02.


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## Diezel10 (Dec 22, 2010)

EXACTLY what Mikey7182 said:


Those 2118's Brutal when Dialed in.


Mikey I'm trying to design a very stealthy doorpanel/Pod for 12" Beyma 12P80Fe


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Diezel10 said:


> EXACTLY what Mikey7182 said:
> 
> 
> Those 2118's Brutal when Dialed in.
> ...


That will be badass! Looking forward to seeing it. 

Jon from Handcrafted is about finished up with my newest little experiment- custom 0.6cf ported enclosures tuned to 70hz for 10" Ciare NDC10-2.5 in the front doors. Here's a sneak preview:


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## Diezel10 (Dec 22, 2010)

You think he could do something for the Dodge Truck?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Diezel10 said:


> You think he could do something for the Dodge Truck?


He can do anything for anything.  Very talented. Shoot me a PM so we don't derail this thread any more.


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## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

I have the perfect amps for a set of horns. They were modded with the intent of running horns but never got the horns installed in my old car. They are the image dynamics q700.2s. I got them when Matt and Eric were still with image. 

Pm me if interested in them


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## Diezel10 (Dec 22, 2010)

YES...I am interested!

Sorry for Hijacking this thread......

I have Zed Audio Leviathan for Horns and Mids...but they are very finicky...if you understand what I am saying.


Thanks 

Diezel10


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## Diezel10 (Dec 22, 2010)

Scott_FX....don't know whats wrong with me, sorry man...got carried away....by all means....I heard ID and 700.2 for horns and forget it.....I went crazy....Matt was suppose to mod some 700.2's for me (For my Horns) but we never got around to it.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't put that much power on the horns...and I wouldn't mate those midbasses to them either.

You will never get the gain structure right IMO.

I had a LP 2.2 on my horns, a 3.2 on some PHL 2540 8" midranges, and a 3.2 on some 8" midbasses...the gain on the amp was all the way down and I was still doing A LOT of cutting of output on the processor for the horns.

I know people have done and do use that kind of power on the horns, but I wouldn't if I didn't have to. You would be better served getting some more efficient midbasses...and/or a smaller amp for the horns.


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

Diezel10 said:


> Scott_FX....don't know whats wrong with me, sorry man...got carried away....by all means....I heard ID and 700.2 for horns and forget it.....I went crazy....Matt was suppose to mod some 700.2's for me (For my Horns) but we never got around to it.


haha.. go for it. it's a free market  i kinda want a matching set of amps so i'll stick with the zapcos.



thehatedguy said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't put that much power on the horns...and I wouldn't mate those midbasses to them either.
> 
> You will never get the gain structure right IMO.
> 
> ...


That was my concern and i think a smaller amp is more of a suitable option for me than trying to get an 8" mid in a classic car. :\




Diezel10 said:


> EXACTLY what Mikey7182 said:
> 
> 
> Those 2118's Brutal when Dialed in.
> ...


I don't think i can get a 8" into the door, did i make a poor choice going with a horn and using the seas?


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## Diezel10 (Dec 22, 2010)

To my understanding to run horns "efficiently" ideally it is required or favored to run a midbass or midrange that has a sensitivity of 95db or better.

The gurus on here will chime in soon......theHatedguy, Mikey7182, etc.


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

Diezel10 said:


> To my understanding to run horns "efficiently" ideally it is required or favored to run a midbass or midrange that has a sensitivity of 95db or better.
> 
> The gurus on here will chime in soon......theHatedguy, Mikey7182, etc.


that breaks my heart! was really looking forward to running the seas. are there any high efficiency 7" that compare to the sq of the seas?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Lots of guys have run more traditional/conventional midbass like the SEAS with horns, and enjoyed the results. So don't feel totally discouraged against doing it. 

The problem you run into with running them is the efficiency discrepancy, as has been mentioned. It makes them really difficult to pair/level match. The issue in going to higher efficiency drivers is you lose xmax and low end response. This is why some of us switch to 8" mids or larger- you get the higher efficiency, plus the bottom end response and excursion. The tradeoff typically is being willing to do the fabrication, or give up the space.

There are some 6-7" PA drivers out there that would work, but they aren't going to do well below about 100hz, so you'd need to run your sub a little higher than you may have been planning on. 

If you absolutely can't fit an 8" (or don't want to), give your SEAS a shot and get a smaller amp for the horns.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It's not like when you hook everything up you will create a small black hole and the world is going to implode. One of my good friends and member here Mic10is uses JL ZR6s with his horns and does really well in MECA. In fact I don't ever recall him wining any of his World titles with high efficiency mids while using horns. It's just another way of doing things.

My main thing would be getting the horns in there and seeing how you like them coming from dome tweeters. The only "problem" would be getting your gain structures right with the sensitivity mismatches. That's where a smaller amp for the horn would come into play. You just don't need a ton of power for the horns, and realistically 25 watts on them is going to be plenty.

So hook them up, see how you like things first. If you decide the mids are the weak link, there are a lot of really really nice 6.5s-7s out there that are more sensitive if you decide you want to change them out. And like Mikey said above, you'll loose bottom end extension for the additional sensitivity.

Some brands and models to be looking at if you want to change in the future would be:

JL Audio ZR 650
B&C 6NDL38
B&C 6NDL44
B&C 6PS38
B&C 6PS44
18Sound 6ND430 (can get in 4 ohm)
Beyma 6P200FE (or Nd)
BMS 6N160
BMS 6S117
Oncore UM6 (Eric's new company and speaker).

Just something to think about.


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

thank you guys! this is a new learning experience for me. I've always wanted to get into horns and it's been kind of intimidating. I'll go ahead and bit the bullet on a zapco 25 wrms x2 @ 8 ohm amp and give them a solid try. if that fails then i'll start exploring other alternatives to the seas.


this forum is a awesome!


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

Ciare 6.38NdW too


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

As you are looking around at higher efficiency mids, there are typically 3 T/S parameters to look for- Fs, xmax, and Sensitivity. An Fs higher than about 90hz isn't going to be great as a midbass, and you'll notice an inverse relationship between Fs/sensitivity and xmax (as Fs and/or sensitivity rises, xmax lowers). So a 7" 87db efficient mid might have 6mm of xmax and an Fs of 53hz, whereas a 7" mid with 100db efficiency may have 1mm of xmax and an Fs of 132hz, and would serve better as a midrange. You just have to find a balance between the specs that allows it to work with your application.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeah I hear that is pretty nice too.



edzyy said:


> Ciare 6.38NdW too


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeap.

Generally if you want any sort of "low end" from the pro 6s, a Fs around 92 for a 6-7 is going to be about as high as you are going to get without getting a pure midrange.



mikey7182 said:


> As you are looking around at higher efficiency mids, there are typically 3 T/S parameters to look for- Fs, xmax, and Sensitivity. An Fs higher than about 90hz isn't going to be great as a midbass, and you'll notice an inverse relationship between Fs/sensitivity and xmax (as Fs and/or sensitivity rises, xmax lowers). So a 7" 87db efficient mid might have 6mm of xmax and an Fs of 53hz, whereas a 7" mid with 100db efficiency may have 1mm of xmax and an Fs of 132hz, and would serve better as a midrange. You just have to find a balance between the specs that allows it to work with your application.


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

mikey7182 said:


> That will be badass! Looking forward to seeing it.
> 
> Jon from Handcrafted is about finished up with my newest little experiment- custom 0.6cf ported enclosures tuned to 70hz for 10" Ciare NDC10-2.5 in the front doors. Here's a sneak preview:


Where'd the rest of that build....? 

Josh


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

JoshHefnerX said:


> Where'd the rest of that build....?
> 
> Josh


It'll be done Tuesday.  Then I'll have the car back and can start working on the IB wall, amp rack and wiring.


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## squeak9798 (Apr 20, 2005)

mikey7182 said:


> They're 87.5db sens at 2.83V, so closer to an 84-85db sensitivity at 1w/1m.


The Seas is 8ohm. 2.83V *is *1w on an 8ohm driver.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

squeak9798 said:


> The Seas is 8ohm. 2.83V *is *1w on an 8ohm driver.


D'oh. Good catch.  Too bad 2.83V isn't 0.125W on an 8 ohm driver...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I forgot...Dyns do go pretty well with horns. Some 170s or 172s would be a nice combo.


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> I forgot...Dyns do go pretty well with horns. Some 170s or 172s would be a nice combo.


good to know, i'm a fan of dyn's warm laid back sound. i'll keep that in mind

thank you


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

For non pro speakers, I would personally be really happy with the Dyns and the JBLs...now Eric's new 6s should rock too.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

mikey7182 said:


> I think you'll be happier (and get more out of the horns) if you spent the extra money on some more efficient mids and kept the one amp. I'm all about headroom, but anything more than 50-75w for a horn seems a bit wasteful- especially when you're trying to pair them with small format mids that have a 20db efficiency deficit, that you'll never make up no matter how hard you drive a bridged 1000.4 to them. They're 87.5db sens at 2.83V, so closer to an 84-85db sensitivity at 1w/1m. You'd have to run 125-150w to a mid to reach 107db, where your horn will be using 1w. Doesn't sound like the best match, although again, I know lots of guys do this.
> 
> If you can fit an 8, I would look into a pair of JBL 2118H, B&C 8NDL51, 18Sound 8MB420, or something similar, which are far better suited to be paired with horns and would allow you to run the single amp. Just my $.02.


If you want to save a few bucks, Peavey and QSC sell OEM versions of the B&C woofers. I have a 12" B&C sitting here that looks suspiciously like the same one that Parts Express sells for $200. I bought it from Peavey's eBay store for about half that.

I heard the Peavey 'house' woofers are Celestion re-badges. (The B&C stuff actually says B&C on the label, it's not re-badged, just uses a strange model number.)

QSC and Peavey also sell eights.

If you're in CA I think you can even pick them up in person. (I live on the same street as Peavey lol, I just walked over.)


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

scott_fx said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I have zapco 1000.4 (150wrmsx4 @ 4 ohms), a pair of seas w18nx's (8 ohms) and i just purchased a set of eric stevens' full body horns with the ultra drivers (used). I'd love to not have to purchase another amp but i'm concerned about pushing ~75wrms to the horns. should i bite the bullet and get a smaller (zapco 200.2 -- 50w rms x2 @ 4 ohms) amp?
> 
> ...


I wouldn't. The voice coil on a compression driver is rather huge really; something like 2", depending on the model. That's bigger than the voice coils on most 8" woofers. Basically you're going to give yourself tinnitus before you melt the voice coil.

I use some weird hybrid xovers, and I frequently run my woofers and tweeters on the same channel, with my mids on a dedicated channel. I've documented how to do this in the main forum here. Resistors are your friend.


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