# Technical review CDT ES-02 MidTweeters (Wideband speakers)



## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

*Technical review CDT ES-02 MidTweeters (Wideband speakers)*

Hello DIYMA members,
I would like to post this review and personal opinion which was done by my self on my daily ride.
It is fur sure not a speaker official test and it was done by me, an amateur and they were done in the car during normal listening mode showing “real life” measurements and results based on daily music listening.
Shall we begin then? 

*The Car – Toyota Avensis 2006 model and make.*

The engine is a quiet (very quiet) 2.0 liter petrol engine and the tires are Dunlop DZ101 which are as well proving to be quiet tires (for which I see as the main noise introducer to the driving experience) 

*The car is sound proofed the following way: *

Stinger road kill carpet all over the floor including trunk.
Butil sheets on all four doors, hood, trunk cover and trunk floor and side skirts.
Hoodliner covering the entire hood cover.
CCF (Dynaliner and other un-named brands) on all four doors both internal and external walls.
CCF on the entire trunk and trunk cover.
CCF on the entire a-pillars

*System current setup (as the signature changes every now and then):*

HU: Nexus 7 tablet + Sabre DAC 
DSP: Audison BitOne 
AMP: Zed Audio Leviathan modified due to being first generation.
SundownAudio SAE-1000D
Speakers: HAT L6v1 + CDT ES-02
Subwoofer: Digital Designs LE-08

*Listening Test, measurements and methods:*

Using an OBD scanner verified the overhaul electric system voltage and it was steady at 13volts motor at idle revs. 

Using a DSO (Mini Scope) I’ve checked that I have no evident clipping at 60hz, 3500hz and 5000hz frequencies.

The DSO showed voltage on the ES-02 around the 600mv – not sure if I’ve done something wrong there to get this reading. 

The test equipment is a MDSP UMIK-1 microphone and REW 5.0 free software on a S10e Lenovo notebook PC calibrated for the original OEM soundcard (which is rubbish) 
*
The test was performed at two main stages:* 

1.	RTA test done at 76 and then at 82 db using pink noise from 20hz to 20Khz

2.	Sweep test 40hz to 20Khz

*Further explanations and details regarding the tests: *

The RTA phase was done while the nexus it self is running as the source entering the bit one showing the system real results. 

The black line seen at the RTA shots is the internal voice card calibration of the laptop it self, it gives a very nice reference to how linear the RTA reading is on pink noise (after eq was done listening to my reference music) in conjunction to a fully straighten internal card calibration. 

Take in mind that what you see is a result of tuning both on pink noise and selected frequencies only – which did not sound very well until tuned over daily listening reference music and that is what is shown. 

The 82db readout is just to show how the reading is kept when the volume goes up. 

*The sweep test: *

This test can be done only when the laptop it self is the HU that is entering the signal in to the DSP.

The difference between the internal volume measured to that of the UMIK had a big margin there for take in mind that at real life the echo and reverb reflected should be worse than what is shown. 

What you will see are results of SPL and Phase showing the read in a deeper resolution than third octave.

A waterfall and a spectrogram overview. 
Looking at the waterfall the xover point is clearly noticed at around 1.2Khz that is due to pod volume limits for the ES-02 and the best point after the L6 sounded worsen and mal performed. 

Any attempt to set a different xover point or to straighten that pit ended up with a worse result, in order to fix that I need to change the volume the ES-02’s are seeing but for me that is good enough and it reveals the true 

nature of these elements – I do believe I can provide an honest review about them, now that they are past the break in point and are tuned correctly.

As for the distortion – I would really like the experts opinion about this but for what I understand the THD line shows well below the fundamental and first harmonic readings as well must take in mind that there are other elements which might be vibrating in the car such as the rear sunshade, key chain etc. 

*Pictures from the tests: (readings and results)*

SPL and Phase










THD










Waterfall:










Spectograph: 










RTA at 76db:










RTA at 82 db:










*Personal thoughts and my review about the CDT Euro Sport 02*

My last setup was based on the Hybrid Audio Legatia series L6+L4SE+L1R2 full kick panel install and now I moved to a 2way front active setup when most of the music is played above the dashboard.

The major differences are the overhaul system volume for which now has a much lower potential as I have gone from a 4.5inch mid and a tweeter to just a Mid-Tweeter widebander at total diameter of 2inches only.

But the fact that I had moved the focus from the kick panels to the dash area compromises that volume loss greatly, in fact the impression is that now the sound system is actually louder!

As for the “nature of sound” surprisingly it did not change much at all, the sound system is warm and yet still clear enough so that I can say that I do not lack the clearness of the ring radiators I’ve had before nor do I miss any other part of the spectrum. 

The L1R2 were definitely clearer on the higher end than the CDTs yet I was never a highs loving person and the margin really isn’t that far apart. 

But I am comparing apples with oranges as if the HATs would have been above dash I would have been blown away by them – I see them as by far superior potential.

Nevertheless, the CDT’s are more to my personal taste at sound and I prefer them at the moment as my daily choice.

They remind me greatly of the CDM54 I’ve had (Morel) but with the noticed addition of the high end as there is really no need to add a tweeter to the ES02 for basic listening.

If I really had to compare them as midranges I would for sure compare them with the Morel CDM line. 

*The positive side about them: *

Considerably cheap to buy and provide great value for money – outstanding I may say.
Small diameter and depth – easy to install.
Very warm sounded and ear pleasing. 
Surprisingly clean and detailed for elements which are best used as midranges.
Do not require much power, though they are seated on a Zed leviathan so… 

*The negative side about them: *

They do operate better as midranges.
When used as a wide bender there is no escaping from full on axis install – some people do not like that the system build is not symmetrical for example so considered a down side in my view.
Diameter limited and therefore not as powerful as other midranges. 
In order to play lower towards the 500hz or so the volume needs to be much greater than I’ve used – CDT recommend a volume of 0.1cf for sealed and 0.3cd for ported which is a lot in a standard vehicle. 
According to CDT then can play down to 150hz – I would say not even in my biggest expectations would I even dare trying something like that with a 2 inch. 

*Technical specs and contents*
•	1 pr 2” hybrid mid/tweeter driver
•	Dome diameter: 2” (52mm)
•	Frequency response: 200Hz-19.000Hz
•	Sensitivity: 86.2dB
•	Power handling w/xover: 90W-140Watt HP
•	Magnet: Neodymium
•	Voice coil: 1.0” (25mm)
•	Surround: Rubber
•	Frame: Cast aluminum
•	Frame OD 2 11/16” (70mm)
•	Mounting hole: 2 7/16”
•	Mounting depth:1.26” (32mm)
•	Cone: Fabric/paper carbon reinforced
•	Impedance: 4 Ohm
•	Cone surround: rubber
•	Mounting depth: 1.26” (32mm)

*A little bit about the reference music I’ve used to tune the system:* 

To test echo and reverb I usually like female voices that tend to get very loud based on their voice only for example “Ancora Qui” from Django sound track






And Souad Massi – Raoui (the thousand nights and a night story) 






To tune the suboowfer against the midbass and as well phase setup between the mid-tweeter and the woofer I’ve used the famous Chinese drums poem (not this specific recording though) 

A bit of electronic music that has some good guitars and bass in it: 






It is absolutely brutal! O-Daiko by Kodo Japanese drums!






And finally multiple tracks played by Norah Jones… a little bit of metal tracks for distortion and several others. 

I hope that this review is good enough to be considered accountable.

Thank you!

Eddie 

As well the build log I keep to update my system development can be seen here: 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ta-avensis-now-then-build-log-might-slow.html


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## MetricMuscle (Sep 16, 2013)

Where are they mounted? I may have missed where you listed that.

They are crossed over at 1.2KHz to the L6V1? 
How steep of a slope?


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Hello Eddie,

You have setup a pretty nice review of the CDT ES 02. I personally have this set in my truck and play awesome. Just like you, I have a 2way front + sub. I have them playing from 250+ @80w currently. They take it all in and to me and some of my other fellow friend and enthusiast are above board. 

I do admit that they will sound a bit better in a sealed chamber. I had tested mine out originally in 2" pvc endcaps and they performed better than expected. I currently have them flush mounted in my sail panel, plan on giving it an enclosure and giving it 150-200w. 

I did do a quick test on them with greater power and they had no problems with it. I currently am feeding rhem off a Hifonics ZXi80.4, which is 80×[email protected] and 320×[email protected] I did a small test on them with the 320w @325hz and the clarity to me was all still there. Now I dont have any fancy test equipment to do the spectro or waterfall test on them, I'm pretty sure that when I do test them with the 200w @250hz sealed, the test will uncover their greater performance.


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Also, from my small testing abilities, I do agree that the ES-02 are better suited to operate in the 200-19k range. I have tried to run them at lower just to see how they do and to me they seem to be more crackly. With 200hz+ and seated above the dash, they will give you a wider front stage and highs are not as harsh as some tweeter might give you.

I believe the ES-02 widebanders are a bit underrated for their performance. They can handle more than they are listed, but they require more tuning and practices. Maybe I can acquire a mic and some testing software to do a better review on these. But for now, I am in agreeance with you Eddie on your current test results of them.

Their size and performance ability is above par, and I for see more car audio enthusiast going to them.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

2inch with 1mm of xmax. You are crazy running it that low.


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Thank you guys!

Not crazy at all - they are in my setup in a seald pods which are way to small so therefore the higher xover poing of 1.2Khz 

As well at these xover points and 12db slopes they are perfectly clean and the midbasses are still not beaming and sound widely opened. 

I've put them more in to the dash board in order to move them away from the windows as they are reflecting surfaces and the entire dash is covered with a thick fleece cover so it also absorbs much of the high notes. 

MetricMuscle - look at the bottom of my review - I've added the post to my build log so you can see exactly how they are mounted. 

Eddie


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

I have mine set at [email protected] xover with 80wrms fully active off a AudioControl DQXS and Hifonics amp. They are this good. Many people have been underrating this little widebander. It has a lot to offer in such a small package, and they are inexpessive considering how much the 3" widebanders go for these days.


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## dgr932 (Mar 31, 2011)

AAAAAAA said:


> 2inch with 1mm of xmax. You are crazy running it that low.


I know it is hard to fathom 2 inches of diameter and only 1mm of excursion but I am a believer after sitting in BlackRain's Car when they were installed. If you did a blind test without knowing the driver was so small most enthusiast would say "the lower mid-range spectrum was wonderful".


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

It would sound better if it was crossed over in a way that made sense.


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

What does it mean "make sense"? Are you saying this because its not bigger? Size doesn't always make it sound better or perform a certain way. These widebanders freq spectrum is 115-20k hz, which is the same as an Hybrid L3. So I'm not understanding what is meant by it. It can be used as an oversized tweeter or it can be setup to run as a widebander. To me a 2" tweeter would seem to be out of place. Please explain.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm. Saying that playing that thing that low is asking for trouble. I'm also saying it is to small and doesn't have enough throw to play that low with any kind if authority. Have you model it to see how, power it takes for it to reach Xmas down to 250hz? When you push a driver outside of its limits you are getting way more distortion throughout its entire frequency spectrum that it is playing. Most three inches can't play that low well anyways. A 2 inncher with limited Xmas...that is even marketed more as a tweeter won't do well that low.

And yes these should sound better in axis since they start beaming around 5ish k.


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

For me at least they are in a volume which is to small to allow them to go low and indeed I do think that a 2inch diameter would mal perform in compare to a bigger diameter at any frequency below the 600-700 hertz 

I've had the L3SE's (I still do) and then can go very low, but does it mean they would play below the 700hz better than the 7.1inch L6? I don't think so - and even if they do - how loud can they take it?

Does it worth the amplifier strain on extra frequency range? 
Does it worth the expense of the dynamic range? 

Don't think so

So, if my woofers perform better up to the 1.2Khz and they are not beaming - why should I over load and stress my mids? 

That is the logic that lead me thinking that pods are alright for me.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Exactly eddieg, no point in playing a 2inch mid that low for those reasons.


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Well I believe that a speaker no matter how small can be taken to its limits with power and frequency in the right enclosure. I understand that every speaker especially the smaller ones have a good and decent beaming point, but these play just as good as a Pioneer TS-S0662PRS (2 5/8"). Of course they are no L3 in size and performance but they can really do this with the right tuning and enclosure. Even its power can be maximized for clean high-output


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## ansuser (Dec 18, 2011)

Is it only me who thinks these speakers are identical to Tang Band W2-852SH?


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Yeah I've seen that comparisson already and it does seem that this is what they are based on. 

It is nothing new to car audio industry to have speakers based on home audio speakers - especially high end market products.

The Genesis absolut and the Alpine F1 are basically Scan-Speaks right? 

Just as well many of the Rainbow and as much as I know Dego-Master are actually Usher's modified

And For what I know Audible physics which were Hustler Audio in the past mids are based on the well known founteks 88s... and so on and so on


The fact that you can take a small driver low - does not mean that you should nor is it smart to.


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## MetricMuscle (Sep 16, 2013)

Parts Express carries the TangBand W3-1053SC 3" fullrange neo driver. It is exclusive to PE so in other words, TangBand makes it just for them in that particular configuration. CDT could easily have TangBand make the ES-02 for them an it be based on another driver TB already makes. From a cost effective approach, this is a great idea and lots quicker to bring to the market.

I'm sure diymobileaudio.com could have TB make us a custom driver to our specs, just takes the right amount of green.  ....as does just about anything in this world.


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

did these go up on price? $180 for the black ones is a little more than I thought they were.

Juan, I defnitely want to hear yours. I am going to be doing a setup for a friend and am interested in possibly using these.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

ansuser said:


> Is it only me who thinks these speakers are identical to Tang Band W2-852SH?


Thanks for letting me know about these. I was interested in the es-02s, but for the cost I will try these out first. Even used, the es-02s cant touch the cost of these new.


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## MetricMuscle (Sep 16, 2013)

I have considered the ES-02 also. I'd love to see a comparison to the TangBand.
It's important to factor in the differences.
The CDT come with nice grills and maybe some other accessories.
If you are able to duplicate this or don't need what comes with them then the added cost makes them not really worth it.
I think some of the specs are different because CDT and TB use a different FR when measuring. Many small fullrangers have very low power handling specs because they are tested with fullrange signal. If they are tested more like how they would realistically be used then the power handling can go way up and they sound lots better.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

They do look very similar...the specs are almost dead on too. The only difference I have noticed is that the voice coil is bigger on the CDT one. A bit better at power handeling perhaps.


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## Rishi S (Aug 22, 2012)

eddieg said:


> And For what I know Audible physics which were Hustler Audio in the past mids are based on the well known founteks 88s... and so on and so on.


Will have to disagree... Audible physics is independent and was/is never based on any fountek drivers. Its all original design. 


Hustler Audio is totally under different management


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Black Rain said:


> Well I believe that a speaker no matter how small can be taken to its limits with power and frequency in the right enclosure. I understand that every speaker especially the smaller ones have a good and decent beaming point, but these play just as good as a Pioneer TS-S0662PRS (2 5/8"). Of course they are no L3 in size and performance but they can really do this with the right tuning and enclosure. Even its power can be maximized for clean high-output


A sealed enclosure will allow the driver to take more power because it applys a breakiing mechanism to the cone making it need more power to move... it won't make it play any louder though... it becomes less efficient. I will have time tonight to model it for you to see. You can't just make anything work how you want it just because you want to and have an enclosure.


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

> did these go up on price? $180 for the black ones is a little more than I thought they were.
> 
> Juan, I defnitely want to hear yours. I am going to be doing a setup for a friend and am interested in possibly using these.


Casey, you can have a demo of the CDTs at the NC Spring GTG.



> A sealed enclosure will allow the driver to take more power because it applys a breakiing mechanism to the cone making it need more power to move... it won't make it play any louder though... it becomes less efficient. I will have time tonight to model it for you to see. You can't just make anything work how you want it just because you want to and have an enclosure.


I see what you are saying AAAAAA. I would love to see what your model tells us about their performance. There is no shame in being corrected and educated. Though, I have never worked with any modeling software and do not understand fully what how to read them. I would really to see if it allows to input certain parameters (ie.. enclosure type, FR, power). 

If I purchased a Mic and say REW software and did some testing, would that allow me to test them to tell how they perform like Eddie did?


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

If these sound as good as my pioneer 62prs did id be very impressed. w

where did you hear a set? may want to pick them up if the owner is selling


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

I don't recall the exact CDT set I last purchased, I do recall they were 600$ for a 3 way set (ES tweeter, 4'' extended mid range, and 6.5 ES-o6+) and were in my vehicle for 2 months (normally I run drivers for at least 8months -1year before trying something new). 

I try not to bash but give my honest impressions. 
Based on my experience with CDT; I feel that they are SPL drivers. They do well at high volumes.

The draw back is that they lack clarity (nearly across the board) and can sound somewhat dull. The plus side is at higher volumes they aren't harsh, but that is the trade off.

They should be marketed for SPL, and in that respect they should do very well. 
I am not alone in that thinking. 

I would hate to have someone drop 600$ for CDT components for a SQ setup and be disappointed. No experience with Audible physics but have heard good things.


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Casey, I am running them on in the sail panels of '04 Kia Sorento.


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

sorry I meant who has the Pioneers? I sold a set online a few months ago and want to get some for a rainy day


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Oh no, my apologies... I was just naming them for reference that was all. Sorry for the confusion.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

OP: When you post measurements, you need to fix the scaling first off. 

In the plots you posted change the scaling to:

SPL; 70-125dB would be more suitable
Distortion: 25-125dB
Waterfall: 0-4ms / 70-125dB

Second, you can't measure a driver inside the car (I assume you did that). The driver must be mounted on a flat baffle outside the car. Then you must gate the impulse response to make the measurement free from reflections from roof/floor/walls. Harmonic distortion plots must be made with a fixed input voltage, or an acoustic SPL @ x meter. I normally measure at 90dB/1m equivalent, if you measure nearfield (which you should) then SPL should be ~108dB at 12,5cm (inverse square law). Plot 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th harmonic, it's usually enough and makes the graph more readable. Waterfalls should be posted using CSD mode in 1/12 smoothing, 4ms range and ~0,1-0,2ms risetime, measure it reflection free in nearfield. 

In RoomEQ you can gate the IR, from the IR Windows tab.

I'm not trying to be an ******* here but the measurements are useless unless you go through these steps to provide accurate and repeatable results. I also find aRTA to be better suited for speaker measurements


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

A harmonic distortion plot should look something like this:


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

I need to purchase a Mic and get some software, but this is good to know when your taking your measurements. Especially if you intend on posting your results. No sense in doing it and having questionable data.

What software is that?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

RoomEQ / REW

aRTA is better for driver measurements, it's free to use as well.

Tapaaatalk!!


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Thank you. I will give them a try.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Black Rain said:


> Casey, you can have a demo of the CDTs at the NC Spring GTG.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So after modeling, in it's optimal sealed enclosure at around 250hz it is
10db down from it's comfort range of 800hz and above. It can handle all of 20watts before reaching xmax. 

For 250hz to play as loudly as 20 watts would at 1khz it would need something like 160 watts. It just won't work...

800hz seems like a sweet spot for this guy. Can take lots of power from there onwards without breaking xmax.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

WestCo said:


> I don't recall the exact CDT set I last purchased, I do recall they were 600$ for a 3 way set (ES tweeter, 4'' extended mid range, and 6.5 ES-o6+) and were in my vehicle for 2 months (normally I run drivers for at least 8months -1year before trying something new).
> 
> I try not to bash but give my honest impressions.
> Based on my experience with CDT; I feel that they are SPL drivers. They do well at high volumes.
> ...


Well the ES-06+ are subs. Their comp sets don't come with subs for the mids. So yes your miss match set would be as you described...


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

What do you mean it won't work to run them [email protected] 250hz+? What if they were run free-air at the same 150w/250hz? Or even say if they were vented, just like the L3s run best?


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## MetricMuscle (Sep 16, 2013)

AAAAAAA said:


> So after modeling, in it's optimal sealed enclosure at around 250hz it is
> 10db down from it's comfort range of 800hz and above. It can handle all of 20watts before reaching xmax.
> 
> For 250hz to play as loudly as 20 watts would at 1khz it would need something like 160 watts. It just won't work...
> ...


I don't wanna thread hijack but.....

Any chance you could model this driver?

Tang Band W3-1053SC 3" Full Range Driver | 264-880

It seems to be the easiest to fit in my upper door location without relocating an electronic door/window/lock module that doesn't wanna be relocated. Magnet diameter is also a real deal breaker for me not to mention the added ease of using a neo motor with no magnetic properties to mess with stuff around it.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

If you not playing the driver near resonance the enclosure doesn't matter much. Most 3" widebanders usually fits in very small enclosures without any impact on their usable range. 

Tapaaatalk!!


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Black Rain said:


> What do you mean it won't work to run them [email protected] 250hz+? What if they were run free-air at the same 150w/250hz? Or even say if they were vented, just like the L3s run best?


Ok so for a driver to either play lower or louder it will need to move more, it will need more excursion. So if it runs out of xmax at 20watts at 250hz then giving it more power will make it play outside of it's "comfort zone" meaning it won't sound as good and will be stressed and will most likely be bottoming out as it runs out of "movement"..it would be pushed past its mechanical limits.

I am saying that it plays 250hz to 500hz too quietly compared to the rest of it's bandwith and that you can't EQ it\give more power at that level to compensate and fix it because it will
-not sound as good
-brake it

There is no reason to run such a small driver that low basically. It's like trying to play a 6.5inch down to 30hz.


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> OP: When you post measurements, you need to fix the scaling first off.
> 
> In the plots you posted change the scaling to:
> 
> ...


Hi Hanatsu -

You are not being any where close to beeing something negative - not at all! 

I even stated my own that I would like the opinion of people who know what they are doing unlike my self. 

But as well note that I stated that by no means I am testing the drivers as a bench mark test nor a klipel test, not even by far

I've stated clearly that I am measuring the car response and not really the speakers but am reviewing "real life" results in conjunction to the ES-02 and how they sound (forgive me for the bold letters) IN MY CAR. 

So I am sorry if I had you mistaken thinking I've tried to measure the ES02 only - the review is about them mainly but it is based on the current system and car and this is why I've stated all the data about my car (even the tire type) etc. etc. 


Rishi - from Audible Physics 

I've stated that it is for the best of my knowledge and thank you for correcting me - but just as a question - there really is a connection between hustler and audible right? or is that wrong as well? 


Black Rain 

The MIC I use is a UMIK-1 by MiniDSP - you can buy it for 75USD + shipment from their website at Welcome to the world of miniDSP | MiniDSP 

REW5 is free of charge but you need to register to a home audio forum as it can only by downloaded from there -google it and you will find it on the first run. 

The thing is that I'm not sure I've used the correct callibration when I've done the swipe test and as well the PC sound card is CRAP! but it is enough for me to get an impression and at least know what I am doing.

The RTA ability is a real life changer in tearms of tuning my system. 

One more thing - in order to do the sweep test you need to have the PC at which the REW running as your source - I am able to do that as I have a DSP in my car with several source entrances.

As for the TB they are very nice but I wanted a car audio product and simply since a long time wanted to try out CDT drivers - I don't think that a 2inch driver can be counted at any sort of way for SPL when it is a paper cone wide bander, there is a miles away difference between them to drivers such as the M6+ which is built like a SPL driver just by looking at it. 

They are indeed lacking a bit of clarity but it makes them "warm" to the ear and this is exactly what I like about them.


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## Rishi S (Aug 22, 2012)

eddieg said:


> Rishi - from Audible Physics
> 
> I've stated that it is for the best of my knowledge and thank you for correcting me - but just as a question - there really is a connection between hustler and audible right? or is that wrong as well?


Fountek, Hustler and Audible Physics are connected ,as we are part of the same group.But each company has a different theory on design and operation.So it all depends on who wants what.


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

AAAAAAA said:


> Ok so for a driver to either play lower or louder it will need to move more, it will need more excursion. So if it runs out of xmax at 20watts at 250hz then giving it more power will make it play outside of it's "comfort zone" meaning it won't sound as good and will be stressed and will most likely be bottoming out as it runs out of "movement"..it would be pushed past its mechanical limits.
> 
> I am saying that it plays 250hz to 500hz too quietly compared to the rest of it's bandwith and that you can't EQ it\give more power at that level to compensate and fix it because it will
> -not sound as good
> ...


Ok, so you say that playing 250-500hz on it, your modeling says that the tones are at -10dB on them. Which essentially is too low for anyone to adjust with a processor. But why raise the xover of it to 800, why not just raise it to 550? Thats only moving 1 octave into the midbass instead of 2 octaves by bumping it up to 800. And now wouldn't the 150w run them and stay more efficient?


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Thank you Eddie for the review on these drivers. I'm glad you found the 'right sound' - the sound that appeals to you (from mounting them above the dash to the sound based on your tune coming from these drivers). 

I have heard fantastic kick installs, but there are a lot of factors in play to make them as good as they were. As you mentioned, you could potentially mount the Hybrid 3 and tweeter in the pillar and be blown away.....but then you would have a 3 and tweeter in your pillar......and you may enjoy the aesthetic of the CDT 2" much better where you have mounted it.....car audio......factoring in the multiple variables to achieve the desired affect.....enjoyment of the music. It sounds like you are enjoying this set 

I have always been wary of posting graphs in my 'reviews'  I don't have the necessary equipment or know-how to do it correctly, but when I explain that and provide just my impressions, folks politely thank me for 'another' subjective review  So kudos for giving it a try - thanks to the guys in this thread for providing very useful and helpful feedback that we all can learn from. 

Juan....I missed your truck at the last meet - I won't miss it at this meet  We will be having our simple tuning tutorial during the meet, so the folks that are there can help with some of these questions / realities of speaker performance in person - might be easier to discuss in person and see these things in real time.


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Thanks Jason. I look forward to our GTG and the tuning tutorial. With Erin's teachings and the ability of having the right test equipment available, I will be able to post a more comprehensive and more accurate subjective review on them. Also, I look forward to hearing everyone elses thoughts and views on this driver.

Being that there aren't many of these being used and they haven't gotten as much traction in popularity, it will be helpful to get as many people at the GTG to sample them out and critique them and their performance. Knowing that car audio has a pretty good baseline for being a "Word Of Mouth" industry. The more people that are aware and have demoed them, maybe the better they will be if all works out. And by no means am I try to sell CDT products, just believe they make pretty good drivers.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Black Rain said:


> Ok, so you say that playing 250-500hz on it, your modeling says that the tones are at -10dB on them. Which essentially is too low for anyone to adjust with a processor. But why raise the xover of it to 800, why not just raise it to 550? Thats only moving 1 octave into the midbass instead of 2 octaves by bumping it up to 800. And now wouldn't the 150w run them and stay more efficient?


You got it partially right for 250hz ...also factor in the fact that it just can't phisically play loud that low.

Same thing at 550hz, the cone needs to move to much to keep up with the rest, it can't...and you are stressing out the driver and maxing it's capability on the low end..and this affects the entire range above it, when 500ish hz is distorting because it's playing past it's xmax then the other frequencies playing at the same time also suffer. There is no reason to do it. It seems comfortable playing starting at 800hz but might be more comfortable playing higher still...like 1000 or 1500.


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## oscardillo (Nov 16, 2010)

WestCo said:


> I don't recall the exact CDT set I last purchased, I do recall they were 600$ for a 3 way set (ES tweeter, 4'' extended mid range, and 6.5 ES-o6+) and were in my vehicle for 2 months (normally I run drivers for at least 8months -1year before trying something new).
> 
> I try not to bash but give my honest impressions.
> Based on my experience with CDT; I feel that they are SPL drivers. They do well at high volumes.
> ...


I'm not agree with its findings. 

Long ago I owned a cdt audio kit: 
Qes Subwoofer 10 "
midwoofer es06igold 
media ES03 
Drt 26 Silk Tweeter 

Active configuration, a pioneer and p99 genesis III series amplifiers. 

I can say they are great speakers with a fantastic crisp midrange and precise 

A terrible midbass, and in general a lot of cleaning in the middle. To my opinion definitely a great kit for sq. 

I would like you to know that your kit conditions proved to be so unhappy. 

Thank you very much.


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

I am a little confused in your posting. I can't tell whether you are telling how good they sound or how disappointed you are with their performance. Can you elaborate more on you comment, please.


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

bertholomey said:


> Thank you Eddie for the review on these drivers. I'm glad you found the 'right sound' - the sound that appeals to you (from mounting them above the dash to the sound based on your tune coming from these drivers).
> 
> I have heard fantastic kick installs, but there are a lot of factors in play to make them as good as they were. As you mentioned, you could potentially mount the Hybrid 3 and tweeter in the pillar and be blown away.....but then you would have a 3 and tweeter in your pillar......and you may enjoy the aesthetic of the CDT 2" much better where you have mounted it.....car audio......factoring in the multiple variables to achieve the desired affect.....enjoyment of the music. It sounds like you are enjoying this set
> 
> ...


Thank you! 

I can say that after utilizing HAT speakers for the past 6 years or so they are amazing technical speakers - they perform in a unique manner.

But I was missing something about them I did not miss in the Morel's speakers for example or to give you a much better picture of it - the speakers you are using right now - the Audison Thesis orchestra 

The CDTs ES-02 have this ability that I am speaking of and it is to simply be on the "emotional" side of sound! 

I don't know why that is but when ever I hear a good warm recording on a morel or thesis or scan speak speakers It speaks better to my heart than to my brain. 

They are not as detailed as other brands such as HAT or Focal, they are not as powerful as other brands I've heard but they have a sound I simply melt from when they play. 

Any one with a good experience would understand that - without talking about watts and THD and so on and so on - it is all about FUN - > and they deliver!


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

Thread revival ALERT.

Just adding my .02 here. I love my CDT ES-02! I'll link to my own thread as well to save posting double info 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...5-change-plans-2-dedicated-wideband-dash.html

Using them as a widebander mated to my Imagine 6.5" and a single 12" sub, all 3 stages match well and with level matching I am impressed they keep up nicely when I go to loud but clean listening levels.

Mounted in my dash, fully active from 400hz HP/24db slope - I am very happy. Took a few tuning sessions to dial in but nothing crazy. They were VERY hot without a tune session. Now they are smooth and detailed.

I do agree that the power ratings are a bit excessive. Even at 400hz I had to dial back the levels quite a bit, my 360.3 DSP set them way too loud for my normal head unit volume. My PDX-V9 amp is capable of well over 100w to each of these drivers, but I bet they are taking half of that or less to get the output I need. I bet a clean and tuned 30w would do quite well with these drivers.

SPL drivers? Not to me. I say SQL.


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Hey Rapture, 

Well this is something to think of - a few points actually. 

The fact that they CAN play down to 150hz does not mean they do that well and as well they need an enclosure of about 0.3cf in order to do so. 

Most people are saying that they excell as a midrange starting at 500hz until 4Khz or so. 

The diamater of this element is very small and in most cases a 6.5 inch would perform much better up to 800hz than the ES02.

Take as well in mind more things such as: 

1. up to 800hz directivity is not an issue and you can easily make your 6.5 midbass sound as if they are playing up on the dash height instead of the floor level. 

They will "connect" or interact seamlessley with the CDT ES02

2. Most 6.5 inch drivers would steal not be beaming up to 2khz (thanks Andy).

So why put so much stress on the CDTs form the first place if the Imagine would do it better? 

I noticed in my case that they do not sound well below 900hz but that is also much to do with the tiny enclosure they are located in, I believe that in a more roomy space they could as well sound well at 500-600 hz but really up to 700-800hz I really do not see a reason why not to let it come from the midbasses in the doors.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

I totally understand those points. I did try mine crossed higher, all the way from 400 to 1000, and I really do prefer them at 400, the vocals are more "present". Depending on power input and listening levels I can see the need to go higher. I certainly don't think 150hz out of a 2" driver is feasible. Mine also have a fair amount of space, really IB since the 2" pvc caps would not fit in the location I have them in without metal cutting (not for me in the dash haha). I DO NOT like distortion, and can easily tell when they are over driven, plus I observed them in action and the excursion is proper and not hurting.

I am very impressed with them and certainly do not regret my purchase.






eddieg said:


> Hey Rapture,
> 
> Well this is something to think of - a few points actually.
> 
> ...


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

I want to try and get my ES02s all the way down to 500hz sometime but in the current enclosures they are in - they do not have enough volume of air space to go any lower than 900hz 

After several tests I got to a final Xover point btween them to the L6SE's in the doors to be as follows: 

L6SE is cut from 90hz till 1200hz at 6db slope 
ES02 is cut from 1200hz till 20Khz at 12db slope 

So the CDTs are still playing at some noticeable level at 600hz and the sound has a good volume (not is in meaning of power but in the way it fills the sound stage) to it - a lot of presence 

The way I tune the speakers is first I find the best electrical polarity they sound at and then I fine tune using TC measurements - the end result is a solid sound stage which has a fixed height above the dashboard level. 

The depth is good but the width needs some improving and I plan on adding HAT L1 (the 8ohm version) in the doors mirror covers.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

eddieg - I moved my xover to 600hz today...and it solved ALOT of issues. And to be frank, I cannot tell a difference in stage height, but I know the vocals cleaned up tremendously. I was driving them too hard, and I really like the volume level I listen to so turning them down to stay at 400 is not an option.

My settings are at:

sub 24db slope, @85hz
midbass 24db slope, bandpass from 85-600
extended mid 24db slope, 600 and up

All are on Linkwitz alignments.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

therapture said:


> eddieg - I moved my xover to 600hz today...and it solved ALOT of issues. And to be frank, I cannot tell a difference in stage height, but I know the vocals cleaned up tremendously. I was driving them too hard, and I really like the volume level I listen to so turning them down to stay at 400 is not an option.
> 
> My settings are at:
> 
> ...


Very cool to read that through some feedback between you all, you have been able to make some improvements. 

I got the chance to hear these in Juan's vehicle at the NC Spring Meet - great drivers!


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

I would recommend bringing it up higher still into what I could call "safe zone". I have said before 800hz should pretty much be it's limits.

I really doubt you would hear much of a difference in stage height and such.


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## CDT FAN (Jul 25, 2012)

therapture said:


> eddieg - I moved my xover to 600hz today...and it solved ALOT of issues. .


What issues did it fix?


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

CDT FAN said:


> What issues did it fix?


I was having a perceived issue of harsh S, F, and T sounds...which I tracked to the cd I was listening to because it wasn't as bad on known good quality recordings.

But also, my focus was a little poor and I was getting some "pull" on certain vocal sounds to one side or the other, or the focus would get fuzzy. Basically I was driving them too hard and the distortion was pinpointing the driver.

After moving the xover up, everything cleared/tightened up. Major improvement.


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

therapture said:


> eddieg - I moved my xover to 600hz today...and it solved ALOT of issues. And to be frank, I cannot tell a difference in stage height, but I know the vocals cleaned up tremendously. I was driving them too hard, and I really like the volume level I listen to so turning them down to stay at 400 is not an option.
> 
> My settings are at:
> 
> ...



Try the following things: 

ES02's at 1200hz either slope 6 or 12 (try slope 6 first) and the midbass at 600 or 900 or 1200hz at slope 6 

Let me know which one out of these setups sounded best for you and how much were you able to cranck up the volume. 

Thanks, 

Eddie

By the way "rapture" I've submitted a reply on your thread - let me know the results when you can


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

ansuser said:


> Is it only me who thinks these speakers are identical to Tang Band W2-852SH?












That is, without a doubt, a TangBand W2.

So you're paying $40 for the drivers, $30 for the box, $90 for the dealer's markup, and $20 for the flanges


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

The CDT driver's shown are HD-2, not ES-02. The main difference between the two drivers is the cast plastic frame and bezel as opposed to an aluminum bezel, available in either a black anodized finish or bare polished finish. 

Consider a comparison of parameters.
http://cdtaudio.com/pdf/ES-02_07.pdf
Tang Band W2-852SH 2" Shielded Speaker Driver


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

hey Eddie !

do you still have the ES2 ? i'm looking for a data : the mounting diameter WITHOUT the stock ring. 
I will make a steel ring on which the ES2 will fit directly. It will let more space behing the cone
thanks


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Hey Werner, 

Yeah I still keep'em - I will have to check it when I can and get back to you, might be at your sline thread.


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## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

I used several cdt drivers. People here bash them. No clue why. They aren't exactly hifi but the price point they are worth every penny. I paid 400 for my es6s and drt 26s
I'm a big Dynaudio fan and for the price the cdts impressed me. I'd bet in the proper install they are comparable with sets much more expensive.


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Yes they are, in fact many many cheap speakers when turned right, install correctly - provide jaw dropping results. 

As for the ES-02 the mounting hole diameter is 52-53mm or so (measured with a ruler - did not have a caliper on hand) I had kept at my work desk the ES-02 outer ring


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

Wow, memories  and thread digging.

Funny thing is I am using these drivers AGAIN in my 2015 F150. 

To be honest, in my last install which was used for 4 years with no hardware changes, the CDT ES-02 ended up crossed at 1200hz on a LR xover and these things performed like a champ. The 6.5" midbass I was running played well up to that range with no beaming issues.

Anything under 1000 is too low for any real volume in my opinion.

They are going to get a workout, they will be mated to an bandpassed Alpine 6x9 this go around. Probably going to end up around 1200 again.


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

therapture said:


> Wow, memories <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Razz" class="inlineimg" /> and thread digging.
> 
> Funny thing is I am using these drivers AGAIN in my 2015 F150.
> 
> ...


Glad i found this thread. Ill be using mine in a 3 way in the dash firing up from about 1200-3500ish at a 24 db slope.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

AAAAAAA said:


> So after modeling, in it's optimal sealed enclosure at around 250hz it is 10db down from it's comfort range of 800hz and above. It can handle all of 20watts before reaching xmax.
> 
> 
> 800hz seems like a sweet spot for this guy. Can take lots of power from there onwards without breaking xmax.


Spot on, and confirmed by my usage of this driver for several years now. 800 is about as low as I would dare play them, for MY particular usage. 1000 is where I have them now, and quite honestly, I like them very much. 

Not saying I won't try that Dayton Audio 2" with twice the excursion...that seems like it might play very nicely down into the 500-600 range. https://redirect.viglink.com/?forma...www.parts-express.com/dayton...4-ohm--295-582


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

therapture said:


> AAAAAAA said:
> 
> 
> > So after modeling, in it's optimal sealed enclosure at around 250hz it is 10db down from it's comfort range of 800hz and above. It can handle all of 20watts before reaching xmax.
> ...


Im going to try mine again. What would you cross them at in an IB setting and what slope?


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