# First SQ Install, 2009 Honda Civic SI Sedan Redline Orange Pearl



## papasin

Hi,

This is my first post on this forum but wanted to share regarding my first SQ install. I’ve worked on a few different cars over the years as a hobby since I was a teen (not for a shop, but mainly just DIY on family members cars). This is my first SQ install on my own car. I wasn’t able to take as many pictures as I probably should have but wanted to share my experience since I have learned a lot from others on this forum. I realize after looking at the other builds that what I’ve done definitely is not up to par with some of the top-notch work by others, but I had to start somewhere ☺.

Anyway, onto some of my goals:

1. Achieve a decent level of sound quality. This is my daily driver and I don’t intend to enter any competitions.
2. Stealth is priority, show not at all.
3. Utilize the stock navigation head unit that came with the car. I paid for it after all and might as well utilize it. Had I to do it over again, would have probably gone aftermarket as I did with our other cars.
4. Minimize loss of trunk space and retain the spare tire and have the ability to access it.
5. Re-use speakers from a previous car.

I’ll get started with some pics of the car:


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## papasin

*Headunit and input/output of stock amp*

As stated, the signal source comes from the stock navigation unit on a 2009 Honda Civic SI sedan:










There are numerous articles about this HU in the 8thcivic forum and many believe this is an Alpine HU of some sort.

This HU connects to a 350W amplifier (per Honda’s specs) that resides under the driver’s seat in an SI sedan (the amp is under the center console for SI coupes). The 8thcivic forum has some information on this factory amp (some believe it is a Pioneer amp), but the short and sweet on it is that there are two harnesses that are connected to it. I left the amp where it is, but unplugged the two harnesses. One harness comes from the HU, and the other harness breaks out to the 7 speakers in the stock locations:

2 tweeters in the dash
2 mids in the front doors
2 rear fills in the rear deck
1 “sub” (really a mid-bass) in the rear deck


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## papasin

*Speakers (front stage and rears)*

I decided to remove all the stock speakers. I lined the outer door skin of each door and the trunklid with Dynamat Extreme (left over from another install - more to come on that other car ☺). I realize I need to go back and take care of the outer door skin and seal the doors completely, but that’s for another day, when I get more time and materials.

I replaced the stock speakers with a set that I pulled from a previous car. Here’s what I had on hand that went into the stock locations:

Front stage: 2-way Infinity Kappa 60.7cs
Specs from its manual: 6-1⁄2" 2-Way Component set (did not utilize passive crossovers since I'll be going active)
Kappa Woofers that went into the doors:
Speaker Impedance: 2 ohms
Power Handling: 90W RMS, 270W Peak
Sensitivity: 95dB @ 2.83V, 1m
Frequency Response: 45Hz – 25kHz
Mounting Depth: 2-3⁄ 16" (56mm)
Cutout Diameter: 5" (127mm)

Kappa Tweeters that went into the dash:
Speaker Impedance: 2 ohms
Power Handling: 50W RMS, 150W Peak
Sensitivity: 94dB @ 2.83V, 1m
Frequency Response: 3.5kHz – 25kHz
Mounting Depth: 3/4" (19mm)
Cutout Diameter: 1-7/8" (48mm)

Rear fill: 3-way Infinity Kappa 63.7i (went into the rear deck)
Specs from its manual: 6-1⁄2" 3-Way
Speaker Impedance: 2 ohms
Power Handling: 75W RMS, 225W Peak
Sensitivity (2.83V, 1m): 95dB
Frequency Response: 45Hz – 25kHz
Mounting Depth: 2-3⁄16" (56mm)
Cut-Out Diameter: 5" (127mm)

The stock sub was removed and the opening was left “open” to allow sound to come into the cabin from the new sub.

To expedite wiring the speakers, I purchased a “Honda integration adapter” from Crutchfield and this connected to one of the harnesses coming out of the amp (Item #120701728). Again, “for another day”, I’ll probably replace the speaker wires to 14 or 12 gauge since the adapter utilizes what look to be 16 gauge at best, perhaps even 18 gauge.


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## papasin

*Processing and Wiring*

Processing for this install is done by a JBL MS-8.










I think most on the forum is familiar with this unit. There's a massive 200+ page thread on the MS-8 in this forum:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/8257-jbls-ms-8-processor.html

but the threads I found quite useful are these ones:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/bikinpunks-product-review-forum/83066-jbls-ms-8-a.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html

To get the signal from the HU to the MS-8, a custom harness was utilized. The signal from the HU (before going into the amp) is, as I understand, differential-balanced output. Because of this, I decided not to tap from the speakers for hi-level input into the MS-8 as the stock amp probably does some filtering, and utilizing the differential-balanced output direct from the HU is going to be superior. I bought the harness from “Mercman” from 8thcivic and this plugged into the harness coming from the HU. Mercman’s harness outputs 4 RCAs (2 RCAs for front and 2 RCAs for rears) and a remote turn on. Only the 2 RCAS for the front + remote turn on is utilized and connected to the MS-8. Pictures of the adapters/harnesses connected under the driver seat are below (hard to get a good shot since I didn’t remove the front seat for the install).










Someone else on the forum is selling this harness (and is identical to the one I used).

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...c-acura-tsx-others-factory-premium-sound.html

This is the newer of the two types that Mercman produced, the other one looked like this:

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa140/duce2k/Harness.jpg?t=1213972882

So basically two wiring bundles went from under the driver’s seat into the trunk. Wire ties were used every 6-8 inches.






































For power, wiring from the battery was quite easy, many thanks to a nice write-up from another 8thcivic member (giving credit where credit is due):

Running power wire to trunk - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum

This makes for a super clean power run and I don’t think my pictures do it justice. No drilling, or altering any metal or material in the car except making a hole in an existing grommet.



















I ran the power wire along the driver side all the way to the trunk.

Ground for the amps and the MS-8 was under the back seat, on an existing bolt, sanded down to the metal:


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## papasin

*Amps and sub*

The amps and the MS-8 are mounted behind the back seats, and the amps used for this install are:

Alpine PDX-F4 (powers the front stage, birth sheet indicates 129Wx4 RMS at 4ohm)
Alpine PDX-M6 (powers the sub, birth sheet indicates 650Wx1 RMS at 4ohm)
The MS-8 powers the rear fill

For the sub, I used a JL Audio 10W3V3-4 and a fiberglass enclosure from Audio Integrations (Perfect Fit Enclosure).

06 Honda Civic Sedan 10 Inch Perfect Fit Enclosure

Here’s a pic before installing the trim ring:










and a couple after:



















The enclosure blends very well with the carpet in the trunk, and the trim ring provided by Audio Integrations along with a JL Audio speaker grill purchased separately matches nicely. This entire setup is ideal for us since we have to carry a stroller in the trunk a lot. I would be very worried about hitting the sub without a grill. I had to trim the Honda Civic trunk mat so that it is not stuck under the enclosure, since it bolts straight down. It is subtle and only noticeable if you look very closely. This makes it easy to remove and the spare is still quite accessible with this setup.


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## papasin

What’s next?

1. Install and wire up a backup camera.
2. As stated above, I want to seal the doors completely.
3. Will probably re-wire the speakers to thicker ones (14 or 12 gauge) rather than utilize the Crutchfield adapter. I wired the sub with 12 gauge already straight to the M6 since they are both in the trunk vs. using the sub wire that came with the Crutchfield adapter.
4. Sound deaden the car a bit more (perhaps line the floors and trunk with 25% CLD + CCF + MLV)
5. Upgrade the speakers for my front stage.
6. Install tweeters in the A-pillars.
7. Move the amps under a front seat (since they are stackable) and move the MS-8 under the other seat.
8. Center speaker?

I know and realize, as I stated from the beginning, that my install is not up to par with many other folks in the forum, but for my first SQ install, I’m quite happy how everything turned out and came together. I’m happy to get any feedback, suggestions, and thoughts.


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## PottersField

I like that you integrated with the factory head and kept everything hidden. Curious, since you're going completely stealth, where did you mount the control/display for the MS-8?


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## strong*I*bumpin

Nice so far,wanted one of those AI enclosures but they dont make them for the Accord(so made my own).GL with the rest of the build.


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## papasin

Mr. T. said:


> I like that you integrated with the factory head and kept everything hidden. Curious, since you're going completely stealth, where did you mount the control/display for the MS-8?


Thanks! I decided not to mount the display at all. I have the cable for it running from the back to the center console and don't leave the display in the car. When I want to tune or adjust settings on the MS-8, I plug in the display, but in general, I only "tweak" the MS-8 when I'm parked in my driveway or garage. I control volume from the HU.


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## SiR_Dave

Outstanding job so far...!! 

I would love to see more pictures of how you mounted the tweeter's whn you have a chance...

BTW outstanding color ROP ... My Civic Coupe is the same color.... . 

You might have seen it if your on 8th Civic


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## papasin

SiR_Dave said:


> Outstanding job so far...!!
> 
> I would love to see more pictures of how you mounted the tweeter's whn you have a chance...
> 
> BTW outstanding color ROP ... My Civic Coupe is the same color.... .
> 
> You might have seen it if your on 8th Civic


I used wire ties (probably not the ideal solution, but it's on there pretty solid and I did not want to use hot glue where others have). I'll have to upload a couple pics when I have a chance. There's another member on the 8thcivic where I got the idea from. Here's his build:

Complete Stereo Install [Sedan Si] - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum


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## Cablguy184

Very clean and detailed ... Great work ...


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## SiR_Dave

Thanks for the Link


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## papasin

veritasz34 said:


> Nicely done..I plan on not mounting the MS 8 display either..


Thanks. I contemplated putting it in the glovebox as I've seen others do, but my thoughts are that's not much different than just leaving the wire nicely hidden and plugging in the display whenever you need to adjust/tune. Also, IMHO, it's less distracting when the screen is not visible/accessible as this makes sure you don't fiddle with it while driving. Safety 1st!


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## timbo2

are you sure you want to use the infinity speaker? after all that money spent on the ms8 i'd use better one and defiantly go active. my experiences with the kappa's is not one i like to remember.


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## papasin

timbo2 said:


> are you sure you want to use the infinity speaker? after all that money spent on the ms8 i'd use better one and defiantly go active. my experiences with the kappa's is not one i like to remember.


As stated, the Kappas are a set that I'm re-using from a previous car. I'm already running the front stage active with the Kappas. I've used JL Audio C2s, Polk DBs, and a few others in previous installs and the Kappas aren't bad compared to those (I'd say better). I admit I have not used some of the higher-end speakers others use in this forum like Seas Lotus, HAT, Hertz, etc., but it is on my todo list per my previous post..



> 5. Upgrade the speakers for my front stage.


Just a function of time, and obviosly money. I had the Kappas available, and definitely can be easily swapped out when the time comes.

Do you have suggestions on what works well on an 8th gen Civic? From my experience, the Kappas I am using (which are almost 10 years old since these aren't the current version) sound decent. Happy to get suggestions on what works well for you or others.


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## veritasz34

WE'll try this again..I like what you have done..Being a first attempt makes it even better.. Like previously stated I too plan on not mounting the MS 8 display and yes too much bling while driving is not a good thing..Keep up the good work..


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## papasin

veritasz34 said:


> WE'll try this again..I like what you have done..Being a first attempt makes it even better.. Like previously stated I too plan on not mounting the MS 8 display and yes too much bling while driving is not a good thing..Keep up the good work..


Thanks! Haven't had much time for the other portions on my "what's next" list as I've been busy the past few weekends. Have some time coming up and will update over the next couple of weeks.


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## simplicityinsound

make sure you come out to our regional finals, would love to take a listen, we used to have the same car and i always wanted to hear what a sq install in a sedan sounds like 

love the car!


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## papasin

simplicityinsound said:


> love the car!


Bing, thanks, I do too! 



simplicityinsound said:


> make sure you come out to our regional finals, would love to take a listen, we used to have the same car and i always wanted to hear what a sq install in a sedan sounds like


Seeing some of your installs, I must admit I'm a little gun shy since I'm an extreme novice compared to what I've seen of your work. Also not sure what is involved in "coming out to regional finals". I don't think I'm ready for that (nor is my car ). If you can elaborate a little (and perhaps when and where) you may be able to talk me into it .

Otherwise, I'm only a zip code or two away and we can probably arrange a time when you're not too busy.


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## FLYONWALL9

I REALLY like the sub enclosure, better yet, I REALLY REALLY 
like the finished look of the grill and ring! NICE, I've never seen
this product.

cheers,
Scott


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## Babs

papasin said:


> Bing, thanks, I do too!
> 
> 
> Seeing some of your installs, I must admit I'm a little gun shy since I'm an extreme novice compared to what I've seen of your work. Also not sure what is involved in "coming out to regional finals". I don't think I'm ready for that (nor is my car ). If you can elaborate a little (and perhaps when and where) you may be able to talk me into it .
> 
> Otherwise, I'm only a zip code or two away and we can probably arrange a time when you're not too busy.


I think you should go.. Represent some 8th Civ' goodness. Who cares if you're a newbie.. Put a sticker on the wind-sheild that says "novice rookie amatuer here for the helluvit" and have fun. I'll bet you'll be surprised at how well your tunes are received and if someone doesn't care for it, big whoop. 

Counting the days until the kids split so I can break into my 08 FA5. Tweeter grills are in the mail so I can butcher them, and more power distro stuff from sonic. I got a little hasty though on the dist block.. I'll be trying to cram parts-express 4g into an 8g output.. May work, may not, oh well. DYING to tear out the interior and doors to get it going. Redemption for years of trolling with no build of my own. Such is parenthood. Time for retribution.. Sweat, pain, tears, cuts, bruises, yay!


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## simplicityinsound

papasin said:


> Bing, thanks, I do too!
> 
> 
> Seeing some of your installs, I must admit I'm a little gun shy since I'm an extreme novice compared to what I've seen of your work. Also not sure what is involved in "coming out to regional finals". I don't think I'm ready for that (nor is my car ). If you can elaborate a little (and perhaps when and where) you may be able to talk me into it .
> 
> Otherwise, I'm only a zip code or two away and we can probably arrange a time when you're not too busy.


there is NOTHING involved to come to regionals, just come and have fun, you dont need a spectacular install...if you feel comfortable, then compete, if not, just come and demo other cars and have people listen to yours 

there is not always something special about comp cars that some how requires a special kind of build, almost none of my builds are what you would call comp builds save one or two...they are just guys who want good sound and i talk them into coming out to compete to have some fun and learn


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## papasin

FLYONWALL9 said:


> I REALLY like the sub enclosure, better yet, I REALLY REALLY
> like the finished look of the grill and ring! NICE, I've never seen
> this product.
> 
> cheers,
> Scott


IMHO, it looks even cleaner in person . I can't say anything but great words about Audio Integrations. They were great to work with and answered my questions very promptly (at even weird hours). Even though my enclosure wasn't anything "special" that they had to do, they took the extra time to address any questions or concerns. Without the grill, it would probably look something like this (the enclosure pictured below is for a different car though):










They have grills for some of their other enclosures, but not for an 8th gen Civic. It looks quite different though. Here's one for a TL:










I am happy to advertise for them since they were so great to work with. They have enclosures for quite a few vehicles. Here's their product list:

Audio Integrations Perfect Fit Solutions order page for Subaru wrx sti rs,Honda civic,Mitsubishi evo,Toyota fj cruiser,Mini Cooper,Ford mustang

For my application, the grill was something I got from JL Audio directly. I was contemplating getting an Alpine Type R or IDQ10 sub (although quite hard to find), but I could not figure out one that would look as clean as this came out...other than possibly moving up the line even with JL and getting a W6 .


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## papasin

simplicityinsound said:


> there is NOTHING involved to come to regionals, just come and have fun, you dont need a spectacular install...if you feel comfortable, then compete, if not, just come and demo other cars and have people listen to yours
> 
> there is not always something special about comp cars that some how requires a special kind of build, almost none of my builds are what you would call comp builds save one or two...they are just guys who want good sound and i talk them into coming out to compete to have some fun and learn


I'll seriously consider it. Where and when? It may give me incentive to progress on my "what's next" list depending on when .


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## FLYONWALL9

Thanks for the info. I spent a couple hours looking around at their site, really nice stuff. 
I like your enclosure far better than the other posted. Its grill, that is to say the second 
photo is something anyone can get; I've seen them. However, yours is much more custom 
looking and far cleaner. 

Its true competing is a great deal of fun! I loved it, however, back when I did it folks had 
the idea that once a car showed up that won all the time they could just write off other 
cars. They tend to think because it won so much that the others must sound like it or they 
aren't correct. I really hoped that aspect has changed, its one of the main reasons why I 
gave it up. I hoped that as it evolved and the judges were better educated I may revisit
my old days. 

No doubt anyone that really likes audio will enjoy and SQ event. LOTS of great people, some 
not so much so; but if you are at the same event as Bing I feel your in the right place......

Cheers,
Scott


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## GS3

very nice install indeed. very clean too!! i'm in the same zip code. lol would love to check out your install and have a listen to it if all possible


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## simplicityinsound

sat sept 24, in SJ  keep and eye on the 12volt events section.


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## papasin

GS3 said:


> very nice install indeed. very clean too!! i'm in the same zip code. lol would love to check out your install and have a listen to it if all possible


Thanks! As far as I'm aware, Cupertino only has one zip code. If you're in SF, then it's a little bit of a drive, but not too much. PM me if you like. I'm going to the "what's next" portion over the next 1-2 weeks, so I plan to update this thread extensively.

For the component upgrades and sound deadening portion, probably will tear the entire car down, so if the timing is right, it may be good to hear "before" and "after". My take is it will be "good" SQ with Kappas vs. "better" SQ with... [stay tuned]


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## simplicityinsound

i am only 20 mins from cupertino...should stop by hahaha


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## papasin

simplicityinsound said:


> i am only 20 mins from cupertino...should stop by hahaha


I'll PM you the location. If you're available, you are welcome to swing by. Otherwise, just let me know.


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## papasin

SiR_Dave said:


> Outstanding job so far...!!
> 
> I would love to see more pictures of how you mounted the tweeter's whn you have a chance...


Going to take out the tweeters in a week or two and test fitting new tweeters (stay tuned  ). Per request, here's a couple pics of the Kappa tweeter in the stock location with the current install.


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## SiR_Dave

Thanks...


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## papasin

*Floor/trunk sound proofing*

Sorry for the lack of updates. Like many others, things got busy, and the "what's next" section took a bit of a back seat. Actually, I was able to accomplish a few of these a couple months ago now, just didn't get around to posting them. If you recall I had the following on my "what's next":



papasin said:


> What’s next?
> 
> 1. Install and wire up a backup camera.
> 2. As stated above, I want to seal the doors completely.
> 3. Will probably re-wire the speakers to thicker ones (14 or 12 gauge) rather than utilize the Crutchfield adapter. I wired the sub with 12 gauge already straight to the M6 since they are both in the trunk vs. using the sub wire that came with the Crutchfield adapter.
> 4. Sound deaden the car a bit more (perhaps line the floors and trunk with 25% CLD + CCF + MLV)
> 5. Upgrade the speakers for my front stage.
> 6. Install tweeters in the A-pillars.
> 7. Move the amps under a front seat (since they are stackable) and move the MS-8 under the other seat.
> 8. Center speaker?


Some of these lend themselves to be done together. I decided to tackle 1 and 4 at the same time. Enough with my excuses and on to some pics.

I'm sure everyone's seen them before, but first, the obligatory tear down photos.

Front and rear seats, center console, radio, and trim panels removed.










Here they are in one big box 










with the exception of the center console along with the rear seat pictured here










With everything taken out, I went ahead and put some Dynamat Xtreme in the trunk and on the floors, roughly a little over the 25% method.




























Next went down a layer of 1/4" CCF and 1/8" MLV. I purchased this (CCF and MLV fused together):

Mass Loaded Vinyl 48"W w/Closed Cell (per foot)-Super Soundproofing, Co.

Since I am in CA as is the company, shipping came out to be reasonable. Here it came at my doorstep.










First thing I realized, wow this stuff is HEAVY! I needed to use a hand truck to cart it from my front door to the garage. I believe the packing slip indicated 46lbs. Here it is unpacked










and unrolled.










I ordered 40 sq feet and nearly used all of it. I put it down in pieces across the floors, under back seat, and trunk area. Unfortunately, in my haste, I didn't take any pics of it in the car before putting the carpet and the seats back (eeek). But trust me, it's there, and wow! Now don't get any hopes of it being Lexus quiet, since we are talking about two VERY different cars. Also keep in mind that an SI is a car that has a redline of 8000 rpm and sounds pretty sweet at high revs. But the before and after is worth it in my opinion. Some might wonder about the weight penalty. For my purposes, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I usually carry a stroller in the trunk, but to be even more specific, couple that with two car seats, two kids, and two adults, the sound proofing weight penalty becomes very negligible. It's much more pleasant to keep the cabin noise fairly quiet to hear the conversations and enjoying the music at any speed.


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## papasin

*Backup Camera*

While I had the center console taken out from the above post, I also ventured in installing a backup camera. There are numerous choices for a camera, and I elected going with the following:










However, since I chose the route of retaining the factory navigation unit, it wasn't as simple as plug in the RCA cable, power, and reverse lead. After doing some web searching, I ran across the following module:










The manual the unit came with is actually quite good. For those interested, here's a soft copy:

http://www.pac-audio.com/PACProductData/VCI-HON2/1_Instructions/vci-hon2_instructions_022508.pdf

I followed everything through, and was able to get the backup camera to operate as expected. I consider myself a fairly handy and technical person, but this must have been one of the biggest PITA portions of any install or DIY activity I have undertaken. There were moments where I was seriously wondering if I was going to brick my "$2k" upgraded nav option on the car, since this involved literally taking apart the radio to replace and rewire ribbon cables. But alas, everything came back together, and the end result really does seem "factory"-like. The one major advantage I see comparing it with after-market units is that it is available "instantly", whereas, several of the after-market ones I've used has a sizable delay before the backup camera becomes available.


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## Babs

Interesting how you give three guys the same problem with a twist, they'll come up with three different solutions..

Your tweet mount solution in stock location. Gets it done with that Infinity tweet nicely:









My tweet solution with slightly smaller odd-shaped tweet, same spot:
(wire-ties vs hot-glue)
To be honest, I completely STOLE the idea from Erin's install same tweet, same location.

















Wish you weren't a continent away.. I'd love to hear it if you go with the speakers you mentioned.


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## papasin

*Update (front stage)*

Recall



papasin said:


> What’s next?
> 
> 5. Upgrade the speakers for my front stage.


Well, had some time last weekend. The mids will be upgraded with a set of Image Dynamics X65 and the tweeters to a set of Image Dynamics XS28.

First, some comparisons. The mids, from left to right: Stock, Infinity Kappas, Image Dynamics X65



















Depth of the X65 mid as you can see is a bit deeper, not to mention won't fit in the stock door location without modifications. The hole needed to be enlarged by cutting into the sheet metal, and a half inch wood baffle was cut to offset the depth. As I've learned from this forum, one of the things good to do is to protect against the elements, so the baffle was coated in truck bedliner. Here's the final result.

Driver's side:










Passenger side:










The door card needed a little trimming, and was treated with vibration dampener to prevent buzzing.










Finally, comparison of the tweeters to go into the stock location. From left to right: Stock, Infinity Kappas, Image Dynamics XS28










Spent time retuning the MS-8. At first, I had a center image that was off to the left. I tried various things, including adjusting the crossover frequency, moving the EQ curve around. I checked the speaker polarity and made sure things were wired correctly. I also played around with the tweeter locations just for the heck of it. Wow, everything sounds amazing with the tweeters off-axis just sitting at the little window. Maybe another upgrade for later? .

Anyway, I restored the tweeters to the stock location, and retuned with the MS-8. After about 5 days now, and a bit of a break-in, I can definitely say there is a significant improvement. Midrange/midbass is much crisper, and the highs are so much more detailed, without being harsh or bright compared with the Kappas. I was also able to get a better center image, but can't say exactly what I did to get there since I tried a variety of things and not sure which step got me to the final result. Overall, I'm quite happy with the outcome. Probably need to fully seal the doors next to get maximum impact with the mids.


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## Babs

I meant to ask over at 8thcivic... Did you cut out and flush those much larger ID's into your tweet grills? I'd love to see pics of that for reference if you took any. I ended up using my D26's in the rear deck instead of front because I was afraid I wouldn't have enough grill to frame around the larger diameter tweet but suspect it's superior to the OX I have in there now.


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## SiR_Dave

Nice updates ...


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## papasin

*Tweeter mounting*



Babs said:


> I meant to ask over at 8thcivic... Did you cut out and flush those much larger ID's into your tweet grills? I'd love to see pics of that for reference if you took any. I ended up using my D26's in the rear deck instead of front because I was afraid I wouldn't have enough grill to frame around the larger diameter tweet but suspect it's superior to the OX I have in there now.


After much debate as to how to permanently mount the tweeters in the stock location, I decided perhaps the stock location isn't the best place. For one, I could not come up with a good way to mount it. With the XS-28 grill cover on, it will sit flush in the stock location, but leaves very little clearance against the windshield (probably less than an inch). It's also impossible to aim it, not to mention I was getting nasty imaging issues as I mentioned previously. Often times, the stage was off to the left even after recalibration with the MS-8.

So that got me to thinking and decided to do a little research where others mount their tweeters in the 8th gen Civic. After looking at the various options (thanks to many others on this forum!), I decided to mount the XS-28s in the kicks. If for anything, if I change my mind later, I can replace both kick panels for less than $10!

With the right tools (a 2" hole saw for the case of the ID XS-28), the entire process took less than an hour.

See below.

Kick pulled out with tweeter mounted:









Driver's side:









Passenger's side:









I went ahead and retuned the MS-8. I was initially worried that the stage would be very low and it would be obvious to the listener that the tweeters were down at the kicks vs. up high in the stock location or the pillars for many others that mount tweets up there. Suffice it to say I was pleasantly shocked! It appears to me that there are tweeters actually in the dash, when there isn't. Stage isn't as high as when the tweets were in the stock location, but the stage is wider, the center is much better, and things aren't as bright as they were (no surprise since I'm not getting the on-axis reflections off the windshield).

Will spend some time listening more carefully and tweaking. My initial thought is that if I'm going to make another change on the front-stage, it will probably be considering getting the Audible Physics XR Duo set, and mounting the XR3M in the little windows on the sides .


----------



## simplicityinsound

now some people may understand why i mount tweeters in this location on some passive setups 

with your interior though...i think you will still get some rainbowing...


----------



## Babs

"Rainbowing" ??

Yeah this is making me want to pull my grills and place the tweets in different spots just to see what happens. Looks like I managed to pop one of the OX's (only fain't output), so I'm now thinking tweets again myself in an Si sedan.

I've often looked at the face of the kicks below the hood release (more on-axis), and thought about a flush-mount there. Seen it done only once though strangely.


----------



## papasin

simplicityinsound said:


> now some people may understand why i mount tweeters in this location on some passive setups
> 
> with your interior though...i think you will still get some rainbowing...


After a couple weeks listening, I see what you mean. I can reduce it by adjusting my seating position before and after calibration. With this set of speakers though, probably the best tradeoff I could come up with other than possibly putting the tweeters where the small windows are. If I am going to go through with that, might as well go the next step, which is...

Over the next month or two, I have some down time at work and my plan is to install a set of Audible Physics XR3Ms in the small windows in fiberglass enclosures, and changing out the ID X65s with a set of Audible Physics XR6.5Ms. I'm counting the days, stay tuned... .


----------



## papasin

*Wideband Audible Physics XR Duo front-stage upgrade*



papasin said:


> Over the next month or two, I have some down time at work and my plan is to install a set of Audible Physics XR3Ms in the small windows in fiberglass enclosures, and changing out the ID X65s with a set of Audible Physics XR6.5Ms. I'm counting the days, stay tuned...


Out went the Image Dynamics X-65 and XS-28s (will be re-used for our other car) and in went a set of Audible Physics XR Duo. A set of XR6.5Ms were placed in the front doors in the stock location.










The XR6.5Ms are band passed to handle 70Hz-280Hz crossed at 24db.

A set of Audible Physics XR3M-LEs went into fiberglass pods that sit within the small windows up front in an 8th gen Civic sedan. The pods were purchased from this forum's own Babs, but as I understand was glassed by bikinpunk. Many thanks to both, definitely putting them to good use! :thumbsup:

Here's the build pics of the pods. How I got them:










First order of business, need to cut some baffles for the XR3Ms since these are 3" drivers and the pods look to be designed for 4" mids. So a little measuring and cutting.










and a test fit.










Next step is to take off the tan cloth since I have a Civic SI and my pillars are gray and the dash is black.










Also needed to cover the tweeter hole, so decided to cut a little Damplifier Pro to "patch" it and tested it on the window with the baffle and speaker.










I then painted the entire pod black, and wrapped it in black grill cloth.

Some pics of how it turned out.



















Here's a wide-angle shot of the current and hopefully final (knock on wood) front-stage.










I'm still contemplating covers for the XR3M-LEs. A co-worker of mine saw them today and said he likes it the way it is. My install thus far has been focused on stealth, so to be consistent with the theme, I'm debating whether to cut out some rings and wrap them in black grill cloth and use speaker grill pegs, or some other solution. The phase plug definitely is opposite to stealth as it jumps out at you with it being wood, but I have to agree with my co-worker that it does add a little bit of flair. 

As for how the XR Duo sounds in my interior, I think they are fantastic with the XR3M-LEs up high. I noted that the XR6.5Ms midbass is superior compared to my previous front stage 6.5 choices, and the XR3M-LEs midrange resolution is...WOW. I don't notice a lack of sparkle at the top end despite not having a tweeter which is my preference. I was first a little worried as it seems to be a concern by a couple folks using MS-8s and AP XR Duos that I've read about in the forum. I think they were using stock locations though, and I think the pods and the aiming of the XR3s make a huge difference. I've only had a chance to do a quick auto tune with the MS-8, and an hour or so of listening. So far I am very pleased!


----------



## azngotskills

Why fire the midrange directly into the dash? it would seem like dealing with reflections would be killer


----------



## subwoofery

azngotskills said:


> Why fire the midrange directly into the dash? it would seem like dealing with reflections would be killer


Was actually wondering why nobody said anything yet... 

Kelvin


----------



## papasin

azngotskills said:


> Why fire the midrange directly into the dash? it would seem like dealing with reflections would be killer


There is a bit of angle to them, and they're not directly into the dash...but I went with a solution that was within my skills at this time. That is, the pods weren't something I glassed per the post above and the directionality of the mid openings was already that way...so kind of working with what I got. Perhaps there's an easy solution to change the angle to them given the constraints. I'd be happy to hear suggestions.


----------



## subwoofery

papasin said:


> There is a bit of angle to them, and they're not directly into the dash...but I went with a solution that was within my skills at this time. That is, the pods weren't something I glassed per the post above and the directionality of the mid openings was already that way...so kind of working with what I got. Perhaps there's an easy solution to change the angle to them given the constraints. I'd be happy to hear suggestions.


Even if they are not directed directly into the dash, the instrument cluster hump WILL mess with your mids creating peaks and dips in the freq response... 
Of course I can't tell from the pics how it sounds but I would try to find a way to go over that hump... or away from it (more on-axis with the listener)  

Angled rings should work great although you might have to clear the dash since the pods are so close to it already. 

Kelvin


----------



## papasin

subwoofery said:


> Was actually wondering why nobody said anything yet...
> 
> Kelvin
> 
> 
> 
> papasin said:
> 
> 
> 
> The pods were purchased from this forum's own Babs, but as I understand was glassed by bikinpunk.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you guys should ask Erin .


----------



## papasin

subwoofery said:


> Angled rings should work great although you might have to clear the dash since the pods are so close to it already.
> 
> Kelvin


Thanks, I'll have to look into this. Appreciate the constructive feedback.


----------



## papasin

subwoofery said:


> Angled rings should work great although you might have to clear the dash since the pods are so close to it already.
> 
> Kelvin


I think you astutely pointed out that the dash would pose a problem with angled rings because of how close the pods are to the dash. So I tried making the "angled" portion of the ring inside of the pod. I haven't dressed the rings yet, but thought I'd solicit yours (and others) opinion on this approach. Here's what it looks like:










Sorry, it's hard to capture the actual angle the ring is providing, but the XR3 is definitely pointing a lot less toward the dash. When I sit in the driver's seat, the XR3 from the passenger pod is almost facing directly towards me. There's still a small angle down to the dash, but I couldn't angle it any further up because the back of the XR3 is butting up against the pod with the angle.

Question I have is whether you (or others) know if there are any adverse effects with the angled portion toward the inside? Is there some negative sideffects that you know off with the speaker being in sort of a "tunnel" for about half an inch to an inch, especially towards the upper part? Not sure if that makes sense, so please let me know if it's unclear. Thanks in advance...


----------



## south east customz

If I were you I'd make some rings and then some spacers and test the best angle. 
Let your ears decide. U can fill gaps with dreading material temporarily and go from there.
I just mount the 3's in the kick


----------



## papasin

south east customz said:


> If I were you I'd make some rings and then some spacers and test the best angle.
> Let your ears decide. U can fill gaps with dreading material temporarily and go from there.
> I just mount the 3's in the kick


Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what's dreading material?


----------



## south east customz

damn auto corrrect. u can use DEADENING material to seal the make shift baffles till u get the one u want.


----------



## papasin

south east customz said:


> damn auto corrrect. u can use DEADENING material to seal the make shift baffles till u get the one u want.


Ok, thanks for the clarification. Should have put 2 and 2 together but for some reason thought dreading was some sort of unobtanium material I did not know about .


----------



## Frank Drebin

Looks like your build will do those speakers more justice than mine. Very nice install.


----------



## papasin

*Switched out the amps*

I'm working on another build (our minivan) and decided I want to move the Alpine PDX F4 and M6 to it and get new amps for this one. A package showed up at the door last week.










Unboxing...


















Specs as some of you well know (although pretty sure there's a typo on the second line and should read 225x4 @ *2* OHM)









Mounted the amps on an amp rack









and into the car and wired up




































Speakers are wired up as follows...

1 amp handles the left front stage, bridged to 450x2, each bridged channel handling the left midbass and the left XR3M-LE
1 amp handles the right front stage, bridged to 450x2, each bridged channel handling the right midbass and the right XR3M-LE
1 amp handles the sub and rears, with 450x1 to the sub and 225x2 to the rears (rear speakers are 2ohms)

I know, that's a lot of power. I still need to adjust the amp gains as they are all set at the minimum at the moment, but will definitely take advantage of as much power as I can especially to the XR3s. As I learned from a couple of you, the XR3s love power and more power brings out the dynamics in them. I think this setup is not going to be short on headroom .


----------



## sinister-kustoms

Wow, that's a lot of grunt! Awesome install man


----------



## trumpet

You should pull the plastic off the tops of the P900.4s.


----------



## scooter99

Nice work! Love seeing the 8ths on here!


----------



## papasin

sinister-kustoms said:


> Wow, that's a lot of grunt! Awesome install man


Thanks. Have to give some credit to Ryan (slade1274) as the idea/inspiration of this combo was after reading about his BMW 135i build. I was contemplating getting a trio of Hertz HPD 4s much like he had since I'm using the same XR3s, a pair of mid basses that could also benefit from the added power, and a 4ohm sub in a FG box in the trunk corner, etc. The main reason I ended up going with the PPI trio actually had to do with the form factor. The HPDs are almost a full .25" wider than the PPIs (and that would be x3), and if you guys note in the install, getting the 3 amps side by side to fit in the "60 portion" of the fold down seat is already quite a tight fit. Also looked at the Polk Audio D4000.4 and those were also a shade wider. The price point that the PPIs came in was a pleasant bonus, but that wasn't the primary factor. I've read quite a bit of back and forth as to whether these amps are "the same" under the hood across the forum, and don't want to get into that but just want to set some context as to my thought process for choosing the PPIs .



trumpet said:


> You should pull the plastic off the tops of the P900.4s.


Thanks, but already did that before powering up the amps. I took the pics beforehand as I chose to keep the plastic while setting them on the amp rack, and mounting them...just as an extra layer of protection .



scooter99 said:


> Nice work! Love seeing the 8ths on here!


Thanks...been following your build which I'd have to say is quite a bit more impressive than mine. Good luck with yours!


----------



## scooter99

Thanks! I don't know about the impressive as far as work goes, cause I'm just now starting to work on it. But either way, I love to see more civics on this site. I'm about to go work on mine now matter of fact. Gotta get that head unit extension thing figured out! C-ya!


----------



## papasin

scooter99 said:


> Thanks! I don't know about the impressive as far as work goes, cause I'm just now starting to work on it. But either way, I love to see more civics on this site. I'm about to go work on mine now matter of fact. Gotta get that head unit extension thing figured out! C-ya!


Ok, maybe more complex. Some of the things you're doing I know is definitely not in my comfort zone...so definitely more props to you. :thumbsup:

As for more civics on this site, with yours, bikinpunk, amitaF, less (to name a few of the more notable builds), people probably think there are already too many .


----------



## papasin

Just wanted to share my experience from the NorCal meet yesterday. Was sandwiched between Se7en CTS, and Bing's latest Hyundai masterpiece...so glad this wasn't a competition, but nonetheless felt a bit intimidated given the two cars surrounding me .

Anyway, met a bunch of really cool guys, and had a fair bit more people listen to my car than was able to listen to others unfortunately since I wasn't able to stay past 1pm. But overall, glad I went and appreciate the many compliments from folks. May just enter a comp thanks to some very kind words from jtaudioacc, BigRed, and Bing (whose words below humble me given the cars he's worked on).



simplicityinsound said:


> Papasin...your car was the biggest surprise for me out oft he entire meet, it really is exactly the way i would like a car to sound ona daily basis, so smooth, warm, silky...wow...


This by no means is intended to be a one-sized fits all recipe, but for my car and equipment, after the MS-8 auto tune, here's what I have the EQ set at:

40Hz -3.5dB
160Hz -2db
200Hz -3db
250Hz -2db
630Hz -1.5db
800Hz -3db
1kHz -2.5db
1.25kHz -1dB

Want to send my kudos to Bing for organizing the event. Will try to be there for the whole time if there's a next one!


----------



## BigRed

Papasin, you car is very smooth and your imaging is spot on. I would have no problem feeling good entering a competition with it. I hope the sub eq I did sounds like an improvement to you after listening to it for a while. Great meeting you at the meet.


----------



## papasin

BigRed said:


> Papasin, you car is very smooth and your imaging is spot on. I would have no problem feeling good entering a competition with it. I hope the sub eq I did sounds like an improvement to you after listening to it for a while. Great meeting you at the meet.


Jim, the pleasure was mine and thanks again for taking the time to listen, and of course spending the time with JT to drive up. As I mentioned to JT, I lived in LA for 5 years when I went to school down there (over 15 years ago now - Go Bruins) and have frequented that drive many times...not necessarily the nicest drive if you went up I-5.

I do not have a trained ear, so I would trust yours well beyond mine. Speaking of that sub eq cut, I wonder if it has something to do with when I ran the MS-8 sweeps. I can't recall for sure, but I may have had a loaded trunk when I did so and don't know if the auto tune boosted the sub eq. My car first and foremost is a daily driver and almost always commute with wife and 2 kids, typically having 2 car seats (you only saw it with one so that folks like you could move back and recline the driver's seat). Anyway, my typical trunk looks like this, with the first pic...including child's school backpack, lunch coolers, diaper bag, work computer bag(s), etc.










Second pic after loading all the bags...with a Peg Perego P3 stroller (for the stroller buffs out there, probably have at least heard of this - we love it and has lasted through both kids).










I don't know if a loaded trunk would have made an effect, but in any case, will need to do a bit more listening to see how my novice ears feel with your adjustment. Great meeting you as well, and hope to see you again...coming up in August?


----------



## jtaudioacc

don't lie, you just like the cars, the cars that go boom!! 

Great sounding car, you know what we thought. 




papasin said:


> Jim, the pleasure was mine and thanks again for taking the time to listen, and of course spending the time with JT to drive up. As I mentioned to JT, I lived in LA for 5 years when I went to school down there (over 15 years ago now - Go Bruins) and have frequented that drive many times...not necessarily the nicest drive if you went up I-5.
> 
> I do not have a trained ear, so I would trust yours well beyond mine. Speaking of that sub eq cut, I wonder if it has something to do with when I ran the MS-8 sweeps. I can't recall for sure, but I may have had a loaded trunk when I did so and don't know if the auto tune boosted the sub eq. My car first and foremost is a daily driver and almost always commute with wife and 2 kids, typically having 2 car seats (you only saw it with one so that folks like you could move back and recline the driver's seat). Anyway, my typical trunk looks like this, with the first pic...including child's school backpack, lunch coolers, diaper bag, work computer bag(s), etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Second pic after loading all the bags...with a Peg Perego P3 stroller (for the stroller buffs out there, probably have at least heard of this - we love it and has lasted through both kids).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if a loaded trunk would have made an effect, but in any case, will need to do a bit more listening to see how my novice ears feel with your adjustment. Great meeting you as well, and hope to see you again...coming up in August?


----------



## papasin

jtaudioacc said:


> don't lie, you just like the cars, the cars that go boom!!


Honestly, as far as cars that go boom, I actually don't. I get lots of flack from forum guys on 8thcivic that I run one dinky 10 sealed (someone commented that it probably just "tickles"). So I'm actually surprised by the observation, but neutral with it. Personally, I'm much more concerned with the front stage (midbass on up)...which I'm glad you guys liked .



jtaudioacc said:


> Great sounding car, you know what we thought.


Yes, and am truly grateful and am genuinely humbled; and currently at a loss for words. With you, Jim, and Bing saying what you have, I really don't know what to say :surprised: ...maybe can you guys think of something I should improve?

EDIT: Was great to meet you too JT. Speaking of theme parks, have you gone to Cedar Point? If you haven't, go there, not Great America...I've been there more recently and it's no comparison . I definitely agree with Bing though, you really need to expand your food choices, and Panda Express does not count .


----------



## jtaudioacc

papasin said:


> EDIT: Was great to meet you too JT. Speaking of theme parks, have you gone to Cedar Point? If you haven't, go there, not Great America...I've been there more recently and it's no comparison . I definitely agree with Bing though, you really need to expand your food choices, and Panda Express does not count .


Cedar Point, oh how I miss it. I went 3 years in a row in the 90's. If I can find someone to go, I'm there. So many new rides I haven't been on.

As far as food, Bing suckered me. He said Fried Chicken...then added as we were about to get in the car, the Korean part.  My Super Bird from Denny's on the way back today was gooooood! :laugh:


----------



## simplicityinsound

My favorite comment was when jt was following us to dinner and my wife was driving looked in the rear view mirror and said "that mofo drive slooowwww!" Hhahha well not the mofo part lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## papasin

jtaudioacc said:


> As far as food, Bing suckered me. He said Fried Chicken...then added as we were about to get in the car, the Korean part.  My Super Bird from Denny's on the way back today was gooooood! :laugh:


He and I talked a little before you guys got there, come on, McDonalds? As for Korean food, you really should try Gal-bi. I'm far from being adventurous, but living in CA, you have so many options and it's a crime not to exercise it!


----------



## simplicityinsound

He's a lost cause....hehe...but yeah. No need to be modest ur car rocks!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## papasin

jtaudioacc said:


> don't lie, you just like the cars, the cars that go boom!!





simplicityinsound said:


> No need to be modest ur car rocks!


Because it goes boom, right?


----------



## jtaudioacc

simplicityinsound said:


> My favorite comment was when jt was following us to dinner and my wife was driving looked in the rear view mirror and said "that mofo drive slooowwww!" Hhahha well not the mofo part lol
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2


that wasn't driving slow, that was looking around for something else to eat! but everything around there had that circle writing on the signs. :laugh::laugh:


----------



## papasin

BigRed said:


> Papasin, you car is very smooth and your imaging is spot on. I would have no problem feeling good entering a competition with it. I hope the sub eq I did sounds like an improvement to you after listening to it for a while. Great meeting you at the meet.


Jim, I had a chance to listen to it with the sub EQ change for a little over a week now. Let's just say I don't hate it. 

In all seriousness, the balance is even better with that change and thanks again for listening to the car and giving me the tip. Hope to see you again in August and perhaps I can get a listen to that famed truck of yours .


----------



## IBcivic

:lipsrsealed:


----------



## papasin

^ :laugh:...I take it you got the packages.


----------



## IBcivic

Early AM tomorrow, I'll drive over and pick em up


----------



## JayinMI

Papasin, did you send him magnets, or destroy a planet?

Lol

Jay


----------



## papasin

LMAO. No, I believe that was Erin who was looking for magnets.

But...no planets planned for destruction, but probably come winter, some minor tremors...but here in CA, have them all the time


----------



## IBcivic

Got the packages across the border....you're right! That "CHRONIC" is some goood sh*t!



J/k on the chronic...in case any puritans are reading this.


----------



## papasin

Just got back from this:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...rena-san-jose-ca-8-25-12-a-3.html#post1701368

Modified SQ score: 77.75

As I indicated in the post above, I actually got exactly what I was aiming for, 3rd! 

In all honesty, I was pleasantly surprised actually how close top 3 were, and to be 3rd to John's (badfish) 4-runner and Lars' (hummspeed) Genesis is an accomplishment IMHO...especially with JT and Bing installs respectively!


----------



## JayinMI

Wow. You had to compete in the same class as that Genesis?!? 
That makes 3rd pretty impressive.

Jay


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> Wow. You had to compete in the same class as that Genesis?!?
> That makes 3rd pretty impressive.
> 
> Jay


The 4-runner (installed by jtaudioacc) was no slouch itself (running Dyns, Morels, and a pair of IDQ12v2s and Tru amps) - see the video build above.

Placing 3rd was exactly what I was shooting for, and a point away from second wasn't too shabby IMHO .

Made a rookie mistake...I'm 5'5" and my car is tuned for me as my daily driver. You guys should have all seen Fred trying to cram himself into my seating position .


----------



## JayinMI

LOL. How tall is Fred?

Jay


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> LOL. How tall is Fred?
> 
> Jay


The judge was Fred Lynch (aka insane01vwpassat) of Arc Audio if I'm not mistaken, with the highest scoring SQ car at the comp. Let's just say he's not 5'5" and was not only a matter of height . My biggest regret to be honest is not getting a chance to listen to his car!


----------



## IBcivic

Thats impressive! Congrats "R"


----------



## trojan fan

papasin said:


> Just got back from this:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...rena-san-jose-ca-8-25-12-a-3.html#post1701368
> 
> Modified SQ score: 77.75
> 
> As I indicated in the post above, I actually got exactly what I was aiming for, 3rd!
> 
> In all honesty, I was pleasantly surprised actually how close top 3 were, and to be 3rd to John's (badfish) 4-runner and Lars' (hummspeed) Genesis is an accomplishment IMHO...especially with JT and Bing installs respectively!


Was there more than 3 cars in your class


----------



## papasin

IBcivic said:


> Thats impressive! Congrats "R"


Thanks! "M"?



trojan fan said:


> Was there more than 3 cars in your class


There were 5 (read the link I posted above to see the others, not to mention all the 18 cars in the comp). Actually, had I moved up a class to MODEX, I would have placed 1st (same judge)...so that goes to show how stacked modified was...


----------



## ErinH

Posted a reply on 8th. 

Congrats man. 

Modex is STACKED this year.


----------



## papasin

bikinpunk said:


> Posted a reply on 8th.
> 
> Congrats man.
> 
> Modex is STACKED this year.


Not as much at this comp . Coming 3rd to John's 4-runner (jtaudioacc install) and Lars' Hyundai Genesis (recent mega-install by Bing)--and both of those with Jim (BigRed) tuning, placing 3rd I was pleasantly surprised. The one point differential between 2nd and 3rd, with 1st not too far off, I entirely attribute to Jim, since he suggested 3.5dB cut in my 40Hz EQ band, that Fred later told me was "lacking"  (it's a conspiracy).  (Jim, hope you know I'm entirely playing and I personally prefer the cut).


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

papasin said:


> Not as much at this comp . Coming 3rd to John's 4-runner (jtaudioacc install) and Lars' Hyundai Genesis (recent mega-install by Bing)--and both of those with Jim (BigRed) tuning, placing 3rd I was pleasantly surprised. The one point differential between 2nd and 3rd, with 1st not too far off, I entirely attribute to Jim, since he suggested 3.5dB cut in my 40Hz EQ band, that Fred later told me was "lacking"  (it's a conspiracy).  (Jim, hope you know I'm entirely playing and I personally prefer the cut).


Congrats on the great finish sir.

You have a PM.


----------



## papasin

Audible Physics said:


> Congrats on the great finish sir.
> 
> You have a PM.


Mark, good talking to you. You sir have fully succeeded in enticing my interest. Will be in touch via PM...


----------



## jtaudioacc

I can't take full credit for john's 4Runner. I haven't redone everything, yet. :O

Good to see you again Mr.Papasin!


----------



## papasin

jtaudioacc said:


> I can't take full credit for john's 4Runner. I haven't redone everything, yet. :O
> 
> Good to see you again Mr.Papasin!


Mr. Papasin? Anyone older than me isn't allowed to do that .

Good to see you again JT and appreciate your guys' willingness to drive up. Can't believe I haven't been to socal for a few years now...back in the early/mid 90s, I made that drive at least 10 times a year...I-5 gets boring real quick! I'll have to schedule a Disney vacation and bring the kids around one of your meets JT...problem is we typically bring the Odyssey on roadtrips instead of the Civic .


----------



## JayinMI

Guess you'll have to put a system in the Odyssey, then. LOL

Jay


----------



## quality_sound

JayinMI said:


> LOL. How tall is Fred?
> 
> Jay


I've known Fred since the mid-90s and he's been shopping in the "husky" section as long as I've known him. :laugh: He's 6'2" or 6'3" and not an underwear model by any stretch of the imagination. lol


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> Guess you'll have to put a system in the Odyssey, then. LOL
> 
> Jay


Actually, that build is in progress. Bret (PPI-Art Collector) was bugging me non-stop during the comp to post it so he could get ideas since he roughly has the same one (a couple years newer). Ours is a 2000 model, but I'm borrowing a center console idea from Shinjohn, and will definitely give him the props/credit when I get to writing the thread. I finished sound deadening it a couple months back, and was the biggest sound deadening project I've ever done. Those early year minivans were tin cans and took almost 4 full days with a few hours here and there in the evenings. Full treatment of CLD, CCF, and MLV for doors, floor and sidepanels where I could. Planning on keeping that thing forever as it's a great family hauler. 

EDIT: It will be getting the ID XS-65/28 that I pulled from this car in the earlier incarnation, and an IDQ10v3 integrated into the center console with an MS-8 since I suck at tuning (but I guess ok enough to get 3rd). Should be interesting as an all ID build...maybe ready by mid/late Fall...



quality_sound said:


> I've known Fred since the mid-90s and he's been shopping in the "husky" section as long as I've known him. :laugh: He's 6'2" or 6'3" and not an underwear model by any stretch of the imagination. lol


He was a trooper though. Like I said, it was my rookie mistake, and he was game to try to squeeze in. He brought his son along...should have let him judge since I bet the golden ears run in the family.


----------



## trojan fan

quality_sound said:


> I've known Fred since the mid-90s and he's been shopping in the "husky" section as long as I've known him. :laugh: He's 6'2" or 6'3" and not an underwear model by any stretch of the imagination. lol


When did you make back home(USA)?


----------



## quality_sound

papasin said:


> He was a trooper though. Like I said, it was my rookie mistake, and he was game to try to squeeze in. He brought his son along...should have let him judge since I bet the golden ears run in the family.


His daily driver is a Saturn (which, BTW, might be the best sounding car I've ever heard and that includes Jon's Bus and Mark's NASCAR) so he can't complain TOO much. lol He's a good guy though. 



trojan fan said:


> When did you make back home(USA)?


Mid-May. Now I'm stuck in the middle of Texas.


----------



## papasin

quality_sound said:


> His daily driver is a Saturn (which, BTW, might be the best sounding car I've ever heard and that includes Jon's Bus and Mark's NASCAR) so he can't complain TOO much. lol


Yes, saw the car. Only sign from the outside of a great sounding car is his license plate ("PURE SQ"). Otherwise, completely unassuming car and you'd think a normal car... I didn't get a chance to listen as I already said and was my "biggest regret".



papasin said:


> The judge was Fred Lynch (aka insane01vwpassat) of Arc Audio if I'm not mistaken, with the highest scoring SQ car at the comp. Let's just say he's not 5'5" and was not only a matter of height . My *biggest regret* to be honest is not getting a chance to listen to his car!


----------



## badfish

Hey Papa thanks for the kind words on the 4runner. Your Honda sounded pretty dam good to me. Really glad I made the drive up had great time. See you at finals john


----------



## papasin

badfish said:


> Hey Papa thanks for the kind words on the 4runner. Your Honda sounded pretty dam good to me. Really glad I made the drive up had great time. See you at finals  john


Thanks John. I may have a couple things up my sleeve and hopefully will be ready by then .


----------



## Justin Zazzi

badfish said:


> Hey Papa thanks for the kind words on the 4runner. Your Honda sounded pretty dam good to me. Really glad I made the drive up had great time. See you at finals john


Was the 4Runner with piccolo/dyn/supremo yours? If so, I too really enjoyed listening to it. Thanks again for the demo!


----------



## badfish

Would that be your ill goten gains that you made the trade for; or did you tune it for a adult sitting position lol I made change too droped in new head unit. Yes Jazzi thats me and thank-you anytime John


----------



## papasin

badfish said:


> Would that be your ill goten gains that you made the trade for; or did you tune it for a adult sitting position lol I made change too droped in new head unit. Yes Jazzi thats me and thank-you anytime John


Aww, shucks. Since I did share with a couple folks, I figure you and others can see it as well, though not sure if I'll use this config for state finals (in the planning stages though, maybe for next season  ).





































but after another forum member astutely pointed out, need some room for the RCAs for the MS-8, so will probably go with the layout below instead (stinking puny spare tire well on the Civics, and most Hondas as I understand):



















A-class will power widebanders
Zero3 will power the midbasses
Alpine PDX gen 2 going under driver's seat for the sub

Updates to speakers also in the planning stage... (stay tuned)

But on the other topic, for tuning for the different seating positions, I did research that a little. Took me a bit to wade through the giant MS-8 thread. Unless I misunderstood the discussion, while the MS-8 has "presets", that seems to only store different EQ curves, but does not account for different time alignment settings for different seating positions.

However, I believe there is a workaround. The MS-8 stores multiple settings when calibrating for different seating positions when recording the initial set of sweeps (records from four seats) and then has 5 configs, namely:

1. driver
2. passenger
3. front
4. rear
5. all

After reviewing the discussion in the MS-8 thread, I think what I can do is calibrate the MS-8 for my seating position for driver. Then, I can push the seat all the way back, raise the seat for you tall folks, and run some sweeps for rear *while still sitting in the driver's seat*. For my daily listening, I can set the MS-8 for driver. For comps, I can set to rear for you taller folks with the seat pushed back.

If someone has other thoughts/suggestions, I welcome them.


----------



## JayinMI

Now all you need are the new AP speakers and AMT's, LOL.

Jay


----------



## papasin

Jay - see excerpt below.



papasin said:


> Updates to speakers also in the planning stage... (stay tuned)


But you guessed it, the Arians and Nz3-A/AMT (aka NZA Duo) are on the way for the updated front stage, but with an additional twist .


----------



## JayinMI

Sweet. I wish I was in a position to pop for a new front stage...I just found out a friend of mine is the HAT rep for our state a few days ago....So, I'd have a ton of options (Arc Black, HAT L3/L6) from him. Or AP (on my own)

Guess we'll see what I can do with what I have for now.

Jay


----------



## papasin

*NzA Duo unboxing*

I'll let the pictures speak for themselves.




































































































I'll update with some comparison pics when I get the XR Duo out. Kids are in bed, see if I can get these things installed.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

Nice pics. Don't push them to hard right off back; Let burn in a bit.

Now get off here and get to work


----------



## papasin

*Comparison Pics of XR3M-LE vs. Nz3-A*


----------



## papasin

Audible Physics said:


> Don't push them to hard right back now; Let burn in a bit.


Will do.



Audible Physics said:


> Now get off here and get to work


Slave driver.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

*Re: Comparison Pics of XR3M-LE vs. Nz3-A*



papasin said:


>


Wow baby got back!!!:laugh:


----------



## papasin

*Re: Comparison Pics of XR3M-LE vs. Nz3-A*



Audible Physics said:


> Wow baby got back!!!:laugh:


Which one? 

Seriously though, if I never saw an XR3M, I would think the Nz3-A is already a monster widebander. I should put both side by side with an L3SE .


----------



## IBcivic

*Re: Comparison Pics of XR3M-LE vs. Nz3-A*



papasin said:


> I should put both side by side with an L3SE .


Shhh....big brother is watching


----------



## IBcivic

*Re: Comparison Pics of XR3M-LE vs. Nz3-A*



Audible Physics said:


> Wow baby got back!!!:laugh:


MMMM , I luv back!

Nice pics, Richard, Thanx for posting. 
Like Mark said ...get er dun!


----------



## papasin

*Midbasses*

Did some prepwork on the Arians, but didn't finish and didn't want to fire up the router and jig in the middle of the night to cut a new baffle. So soldered some speaker wires to them, used color coded shrink tubing, and tech flex (appropriately, orange like the car). I may go back and tech flex all the audio-related wiring to orange at some later date 




























Now, comparing the XR6.5M to the Arians:





































and comparing the last 3 midbasses I've used


----------



## papasin

*Re: Comparison Pics of XR3M-LE vs. Nz3-A*



IBcivic said:


> Like Mark said ...get er dun!


Can't you see I'm working, all the way to 3:30am PST? 

Ok, off to bed, but more work to follow in the AM...

Speaking of getting er dun, funny who's talking  .


----------



## IBcivic

*Re: Comparison Pics of XR3M-LE vs. Nz3-A*



papasin said:


> Speaking of getting er dun, funny who's talking  .


I knew that I was setting myself up, when I wrote that:laugh:


----------



## JayinMI

What's the midbass on the left? ID?

Looking forward to seeing more. Are you making new pods for the NZ3/AMT?

Jay


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

JayinMI said:


> What's the midbass on the left? ID?
> 
> Looking forward to seeing more. Are you making new pods for the NZ3/AMT?
> 
> Jay


Yes it is an ID. I have always loved the looks of that ID driver. I owned a set for awhile very nice driver and light weight, but not in sound.


----------



## Guest

Very impressive collection of equipment !

This should be very nice....


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> What's the midbass on the left? ID?
> 
> Looking forward to seeing more. Are you making new pods for the NZ3/AMT?
> 
> Jay


Yes, ID X65. Plan for them is to go into our Odyssey with the XR3.5M-LEs...the one you were razzing me about a few posts up .

Yes on something new for the Nz3-A/AT. While the current pods I was able to get to sound good and do well in the last comp, the aiming could be improved. Rather than pods, I'm looking to get something built directly into the pillar. Want to come by and help? 



SQ_MDX said:


> Very impressive collection of equipment !
> 
> This should be very nice....


Thanks, and I was not looking at your sig when I selected mine! :surprised:


----------



## tintbox

*Re: Comparison Pics of XR3M-LE vs. Nz3-A*



IBcivic said:


> Shhh....big brother is watching


That's PERFECT!


----------



## Guest

LOL....

As I stated, man with good taste


----------



## JayinMI

papasin said:


> Yes on something new for the Nz3-A/AT. While the current pods I was able to get to sound good and do well in the last comp, the aiming could be improved. Rather than pods, I'm looking to get something built directly into the pillar. Want to come by and help?


Sure, if you cover plane tickets (round trip), lodging, and materials, I think something could be worked out. LOL Of course it would probably be cheaper to have Bing build you some at that point...airfare is expensive.

Jay


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> Sure, if you cover plane tickets (round trip), lodging, and materials, I think something could be worked out. LOL Of course it would probably be cheaper to have Bing build you some at that point...airfare is expensive.
> 
> Jay


Hehe, you'd be surprised at what lengths I would be willing to go (you know who you are subscribed on this thread  ).

Alas, while it would be great to get Bing's help, not in the cards given his wait list and I'm shooting to get these in for state finals. I have a temporary plan for them, and if the stars line up, a longer term plan come December.


----------



## JayinMI

December...the perfect time to come to California. LOL

Unfortunately, it's also Remote Start season and the part of my year when I make most of my money.

Jay


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> December...the perfect time to come to California. LOL
> 
> Unfortunately, it's also Remote Start season and the part of my year when I make most of my money.
> 
> Jay


No, not flying anyone out .

I don't think you'd do well with remote starts in CA :laugh:.


----------



## JayinMI

I find it funny that people in warmer climates don't want the ability to cool their cars off before they get in. Must be all those damn tree huggers. LOL

Jay


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> I find it funny that people in warmer climates don't want the ability to cool their cars off before they get in. Must be all those damn tree huggers. LOL
> 
> Jay


Grew up in the Silicon Valley Area, and in this part of CA, I would argue AC is optional. The house my parents have in San Jose didn't have AC in the years I grew up there. In the 25 years they've owned it, I could probably count only a handful days where it would have really been worth it.


----------



## papasin

papasin said:


> Ok, off to bed, but more work to follow in the AM...


Didn't get as much done today as I had hoped. Was expecting things to be slow at work and could come in late or sneak out early, but that didn't happen.

For those that have the XR6.5Ms and moving up to the Arians, as Mark probably have told you, the Arians are just a shade bigger and need to open up your baffle by a couple mm.

For those that have Hondas, many of you know the tiny opening they have in the doors with the funky shape...and looks like I need to get the Jigsaw's metal cutting bit out to shave things down even more. I'll probably just cut new baffles while I'm at it, as I'm worried shaving the current ones may be more work than just cutting out new ones. More to come...


----------



## papasin

*Not build/install related, but cool!*

Been a bit busy at work, but this is definitely worth noting since for me this is work-related . Just flew over work (NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA) on its way down to LA.


----------



## papasin

Arians are installed.


----------



## papasin

*Nz3-A/AT Aiming and Listening*

First, a disclaimer. I'm far from someone who has trained ears...so please take any of what I'm about to say with a grain of salt as certainly YMMV.

With that said, I spent a good 2-3 hours this evening/early AM aiming various configurations and listening with the Nz3-A/AT combo. In researching how to aim the speakers, I read through and found this thread quite informative:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...off-axis-better-front-stage-hybrid-audio.html

Some observations:

1. With the driver's seat set at the lowest and all the way back I found that aiming the Nz3-A/ATs toward the opposite B-pillars just at the top of the seat belts to give what my ears what was thought to be most pleasing.
2. In my seating position, being just a tad over 5'5" and needing to be able to reach the pedals, aiming the Nz3-A/ATs at the back part of the handle right above each seat seemed to work well.
3. I did not do a straight side by side or A/B test with the XR3Ms, but after listening to the XR3Ms for a year or so now, and my limited listening with the Nz3-A/ATs, I second Mark's response to my question comparing these speakers. Mark, I hope you don't mind me sharing, but I second this observation after listening to things with my ears and couldn't have said it better ("in quotes" from Mark Brooks):

"Simply put and i hate to say it as I love the XR3M and still say it is the best small format wide-band ever built, but from the upper midrange to top-end the XR3M can not compete. Mid mid-range they are I would say even. Where the XR3M has the edge is in the lower midrange 200-400, it has a little more body at the bottom end. But that is why we made the Arian to match the Resolution of the Nz3-A. Dynamics in are amazing with the Nz3-A/AT"

This is how I configured for my listening:

Nz3-A/AT: 300Hz on up, 24dB slope
Arians: 65-300Hz, 24dB slope
Sub: Subsonic filter set at 20 (and unfortunately, as many of you know this is undefeatable with an MS-8.

Anyway, some pics...

Driver's side:









Passenger's side:









Both sides:


----------



## Bluenote

Niiiiice!!!!


----------



## papasin

Bluenote said:


> Niiiiice!!!!


Thanks. Be interested to take a listen to your MS-8-based car with a center sometime .


----------



## bbfoto

Looks like you're going to have a sweet setup.  Thanks for all of the pics and notes on your speaker angling impressions. I'm about 5'-5" tall (or short, lol) as well, so I have the same issues when trying to install, angle, and tune for my daily driving seat position, and for taller listeners that demo my systems (even though I don't compete). For mids and tweeters that are mounted at or above dash level, I've generally found that if you can aim them to minimize the early reflections off of the opposite-side front window glass, it will help to achieve the best staging, imaging, and depth. Try opening the driver- and passenger-side windows to compare the difference while trying different angles or positions.

I'd like to give the Arians a shot in my new install as well, but am going to test it with a bunch of drivers that I already have first. If none of them do it for me, I might give the Arians a shot, but 8"-9" midbass drivers are usually my preferred M.O.

Normally I wouldn't have any issues cutting sheetmetal or door panels to achieve the best results, but this latest install will be in a brand new vehicle with warranty, etc., so I'd like to avoid it if possible and stick to 6.5"-7" midbass drivers in the OEM lower door locations.

My OEM tweeters are in the sail panels, but I think I can fab some sail panels to fit ~3" mids and small format tweeters with about 0.5L enclosures for the mids. How much airspace is optimum for the Nz3-A's? Reasons above are why I'm really interested to hear your future impressions after you've got a good tune on your civic. 

Curious about one thing regarding the Arians, however... It seems that a copper or aluminum phase plug (as opposed to the wood phase plug) would help to dissapate more heat and reduce power compression. Did Mark offer any reason for implementing the wood P-P other than just aesthetics?

Awesome install! Will be following your progress for sure, and hope to hear your car at a future show or GTG!


----------



## papasin

bbfoto said:


> How much airspace is optimum for the Nz3-A's?


0.5-1.0L, or IB, as listed here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1720511-post65.html



bbfoto said:


> Curious about one thing regarding the Arians, however... It seems that a copper or aluminum phase plug (as opposed to the wood phase plug) would help to dissapate more heat and reduce power compression.


If your interest is in exclusive midbass duty, you can PM Mark in trying to get the version with the dustcap. Slightly lower Fs, and slightly bigger cone area.


----------



## Bluenote

papasin said:


> Thanks. Be interested to take a listen to your MS-8-based car with a center sometime .


Thanks! It is an absolute necessity that I hear yours as well. I will PM you about some potential times to meet up. Somehow, I think I missed the opportunity to meet you at the comp in SJ last month. Looking forward to more of your build.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

Ok guys here we go.

first the dust cap over the phase plug is not going to make any noticeable differences in midbass performance. The more cone area thing is next none. What you have to look at is the cone profile of the Arian. The phase plug take up very little space. 

Now look at the dust cap. It only looks larger because the dust blends in with the color of the cone. But what your missing the dust seats upward on the cone, So the lower area/center of the cone is covered. The slightly lower Fs 56hz vs 59hz is most do to the add mass the dust cap adds to the cone. 

The reason for the use wood and not metal is sonic benefits. The Arian is a Ultra Wide-band the Asian hard wood gives a smoother and more natural sound in the upper range. I simply wanted a driver to could give the midbass of the Ebony design and the resolution of the XR6.5M. So you have the Arian. It simply is a do it all transducer and do it all at a high level. 

So I asked this question if a dust cap is added Do any driver, how then is the heat dispersed?


----------



## papasin

Bluenote said:


> Thanks! It is an absolute necessity that I hear yours as well. I will PM you about some potential times to meet up. Somehow, I think I missed the opportunity to meet you at the comp in SJ last month. Looking forward to more of your build.


My Civic is hard to miss with the color...not your typical silver, white, or black Civic . Was definitely around at the comp, and too bad you weren't able to take a listen to give the before and after impressions. Depending on how far I can get with the Nz3s, but will definitely get something together by state finals.


----------



## papasin

Audible Physics said:


> Ok guys here we go.
> 
> first the dust cap over the phase plug is not going to make any noticeable differences in midbass performance. The more cone area thing is next none. What you have to look at is the cone profile of the Arian. The phase plug take up very little space.
> 
> Now look at the dust cap. It only looks larger because the dust blends in with the color of the cone. But what your missing the dust seats upward on the cone, So the lower area/center of the cone is covered. The slightly lower Fs 56hz vs 59hz is most do to the add mass the dust cap adds to the cone.
> 
> The reason for the use wood and not metal is sonic benefits. The Arian is a Ultra Wide-band the Asian hard wood gives a smoother and more natural sound in the upper range. I simply wanted a driver to could give the midbass of the Ebony design and the resolution of the XR6.5M. So you have the Arian. It simply is a do it all transducer and do it all at a high level.
> 
> So I asked this question if a dust cap is added Do any driver, how then is the heat dispersed?


Mark, thanks for clarifying.


----------



## Bluenote

papasin said:


> My Civic is hard to miss with the color...not your typical silver, white, or black Civic . Was definitely around at the comp, and too bad you weren't able to take a listen to give the before and after impressions. Depending on how far I can get with the Nz3s, but will definitely get something together by state finals.


It's funny you say that! I've been to 2-3 comps total-ever! So, when I'm walking around waiting to hear a car, it usually the ones that everyone is crowding around. Never realizing that there are a lot of sleepers so-to speak with nice set-ups present! Live and Learn I guess


----------



## FLYONWALL9

It almost looks as if this car was designed with 3" speaker 
pods on the dash in mind. How cool is that?

NICE shot of the shuttle. I was bummed to see HOUSTON 
did not get one. They sure did disserve it more than freaking 
NY.... WHAT A RAW DEAL!


----------



## papasin

Bluenote said:


> It's funny you say that! I've been to 2-3 comps total-ever! So, when I'm walking around waiting to hear a car, it usually the ones that everyone is crowding around. Never realizing that there are a lot of sleepers so-to speak with nice set-ups present! Live and Learn I guess


No worries, newbie here! Been to 1 DIYMA meet and 1 comp. 

My car was already the sleeper at the Norcal DIYMA meet back in June:



simplicityinsound said:


> Papasin...your car was the biggest surprise for me out oft he entire meet, it really is exactly the way i would like a car to sound ona daily basis, so smooth, warm, silky...wow...


and placing 3rd at the August San Jose comp next to badfish's 4-runner (2nd) and Bing's massive Hyundai install (1st) in modified was another pleasant surprise...with the top 3 separated by less than 3 points...and that was with the previous gear/install and people complaining (I mean constructively commenting) on the aiming of the XR3s.


----------



## papasin

FLYONWALL9 said:


> It almost looks as if this car was designed with 3" speaker
> pods on the dash in mind. How cool is that?


Yep, but can't take ANY credit for the idea as many others have definitely paved the way for the 8th gen Civic sedan owners (note the coupe's - i.e. IBCivic ) don't get this feature.

bikinipunk (with a 4"!):









FrankstonCarAudio:









I will never buy another car without considering install potential, and definitely stumbled onto this one .



FLYONWALL9 said:


> NICE shot of the shuttle. I was bummed to see HOUSTON
> did not get one. They sure did disserve it more than freaking
> NY.... WHAT A RAW DEAL!


Might as well link this while I'm at it (video of it going by at Moffett Field)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5BQ1m7uBi_0


----------



## badfish

The aiming was fine It's the seating position It's like getting into my ex wife's car she is vertically challenged too lol ! Saw the plane on my to Redding almost recked my car doing 90 rubber necking. Your car is looking good. See you at finals. John


----------



## papasin

badfish said:


> The aiming was fine It's the seating position It's like getting into my ex wife's car she is vertically challenged too lol ! Saw the plane on my to Redding almost recked my car doing 90 rubber necking. Your car is looking good. See you at finals. John


Wait 'til I redo my wife's Smart! She's 5'1" and can't wait to see some of you guys take a demo/judge with her seating position.


----------



## bbfoto

papasin said:


> 0.5-1.0L, or IB, as listed here:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1720511-post65.html
> 
> 
> If your interest is in exclusive midbass duty, you can PM Mark in trying to get the version with the dustcap. Slightly lower Fs, and slightly bigger cone area.


Nice shot of Endeavour, Papasin! I was lucky enough to see it fly by as well, just not quite as close as your flyby.

Thanks for the info/link on the Nz3-A's. Looks like they could work in my install if my current drivers don't pan out.  I could probably squeeze in a .75L fiberglass enclosure that extends below the sail panels and under the door card to gain a bit more airspace.

Thanks for the info on the non-Phase Plug version of the Arians as well...I had no idea this was an option! 

Mark, I really appreciate your reply, too. Thanks for the schooling. I understand regarding the phase-plug cooling effect. It would probably be minimal compared to the normal coil-to-air and motor/basket/pole vent heat dissipation, but I remember seeing a proprietary Alpine/Scan-Speak phase-plug that Jason Kemmerer designed mostly for this reason. But they were using Neo magnets that are much more sensitive to heat IIRC.

Also regarding the Phase Plugs, I didn't think they contributed to the actual sonic signature of the driver. I thought that would be determined entirely by the cone material, cone shape, and associated surround/dampening. Maybe you should design interchangeable phase-plug's made out of different woods (balsa, oak, koa, pine, hickory, rosewood, walnut, ash, etc.) so that users could fine tune the drivers to their taste. Could be a money maker...accessorize your speakers if you will. 

Thanks again everyone for your replies. I'm looking forward to hearing these drivers one way or another.


----------



## rugdnit

bbfoto said:


> Nice shot of Endeavour, Papasin! I was lucky enough to see it fly by as well, just not quite as close as your flyby.
> 
> Thanks for the info/link on the Nz-3a's. Looks like they could work in my install if my current drivers don't pan out.  I could probably squeeze in a .75L fiberglass enclosure that extends below the sail panels and under the door card to gain a bit more airspace.
> 
> Thanks for the info on the non-Phase Plug version of the Arians as well...I had no idea this was an option!
> 
> Mark, I really appreciate your reply, too. Thanks for the schooling. I understand regarding the phase-plug cooling effect. It would probably be minimal compared to the normal coil-to-air and motor/basket/pole vent heat dissipation, but I remember seeing a proprietary Alpine/Scan-Speak phase-plug that Jason Kemmerer designed mostly for this reason. But they were using Neo magnets that are much more sensitive to heat IIRC.
> 
> Regarding the Phase Plugs, I didn't think they contributed to the actual sonic signature of the driver. I thought that would be determined entirely by the cone material, cone shape, and associated surround/dampening. Maybe you should design interchangeable phase-plug's made out of different woods (balsa, oak, koa, pine, hickory, rosewood, walnut, ash, etc.) so that users could fine tune the drivers to their taste. Could be a money maker...accessorize your speakers if you will.
> 
> Thanks again everyone for your replies. I'm looking forward to hearing these drivers one way or another.


Perhaps I am speaking out of turn here, but all those different woods may not react well to the heat of the car environment. My XR3MLE's had one of the phase plugs come loose and now wobbles around and the other split.


----------



## bbfoto

rugdnit said:


> Perhaps I am speaking out of turn here, but all those different woods may not react well to the heat of the car environment. My XR3MLE's had one of the phase plugs come loose and now wobbles around and the other split.


DOH! Bummer. Your probably right...another bad idea from bbfoto! :blush:

I'm sure Mark would take care of you and send you replacements, right? I mean, that shouldn't happen with any decent driver, especially one made to be used in the car environment, no? And you live in NorCal? I can't imagine it getting too hot anywhere up there...it's not like you're in AZ or TX. Maybe it's due more to day/night hot/cold cycles, but still, shouldn't happen with a speaker made for car use.

Hmmm...what kind of wood are they made out of? I was thinking of having some type of small threaded stud/insert to attach the different phase plugs to the pole piece, but if the wood itself split in half, I suppose that wouldn't work out too well either.


----------



## papasin

Just sketching out the layout of the Nz3 and AT, and thanks to oca123's template from his Nz3 review thread, looking to position the pair as follows:










Comments, critiques are welcome.


----------



## rugdnit

bbfoto said:


> DOH! Bummer. Your probably right...another bad idea from bbfoto! :blush:
> 
> I'm sure Mark would take care of you and send you replacements, right? I mean, that shouldn't happen with any decent driver, especially one made to be used in the car environment, no? And you live in NorCal? I can't imagine it getting too hot anywhere up there...it's not like you're in AZ or TX. Maybe it's due more to day/night hot/cold cycles, but still, shouldn't happen with a speaker made for car use.
> 
> Hmmm...what kind of wood are they made out of? I was thinking of having some type of small threaded stud/insert to attach the different phase plugs to the pole piece, but if the wood itself split in half, I suppose that wouldn't work out too well either.


*Sorry to derail the thread*. It's a good point. Even though I just publicly did so I am generally against open complaining. I almost always go to the mfg if I have a problem. Since I just yanked everything out of my car it wasn't high on my priority list to bring it up with Mark. As it stands I am on Bings list for an install in my Touareg TDI ( no time and want a killer job done ) and even though he handles AP-- Due to this experience the new product is not on my short list for the front stage.


----------



## bbfoto

papasin said:


> Just sketching out the layout of the Nz3 and AT, and thanks to oca123's template from his Nz3 review thread, looking to position the pair as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comments, critiques are welcome.


 
rugdnit, hey the squeeky wheel gets the oil.  You paid good money for them...no reason to not expect better. Good luck with your new install. Apologize for getting off-topic in Papasin's build log as well! :blush: Back to the awesome Civic!

So Richard, this layout/template shows how they will go into your A-Pillar window pocket locations? The 3" and AT will be arranged horizontally with the AT's closest to you, or closer to the windshield?

If there is room, you might want to try it with the AT's centered directly above the mids (vertically). This has the added benifit keeping the path lengths the same between the mid and AT's, though that is not really critical. Bury the AT's on-axis (or pointed slightly behind you/more towards the back of the car) and place them as deep as you can in the A-Pillar pocket so they are positioned as wide as possible.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

First you have to know I post nothing and i mean nothing without testing and testing some more. I do not sell hype sir. Well I can tell you this about phase plugs and i have test this. 

The wood or material use dose make difference as those profile (shape) of the phase plugs. the XR3M used to different woods, One was Rosewood and the other was Ironwood. The sound different the upper range. Just like dust caps, profile and how it is attach makes a difference in the sound of the driver. Why do you thing all small drivers are not wide-band? Why do you thing all metal or paper cone list just say 6.5" can not play up to 12-16khz. It is more then just the cone. Now the cone is a very important part of it but not the only part. 


*rugdnit:*
Next that is the first I have heard of a dust cap becoming loose. They are hard enough to plug out when I try to on the XR drivers. I have use the XR3M as has others for going on 2 years now and no issues of that kind or any other kind. Things happen just like any other product. And 1 out of 50-60 that I sold is not bad. Not to mention the hundreds sold elsewhere in the world. I have have like 3 to get small spit in them which was an easy fix also. It was un-coated Asian Ironwood that the LE used. So it You could have easily connected me and I would have fixed the issue for you! 

Hope your new install does well as i know it will with the Man Bing doing it.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

Sorry papasin for getting off topic.


----------



## rugdnit

Audible Physics said:


> First you have to know I post nothing and i mean nothing without testing and testing some more. I do not sell hype sir. Well I can tell you this about phase plugs and i have test this.
> 
> The wood or material use dose make difference as those profile (shape) of the phase plugs. the XR3M used to different woods, One was Rosewood and the other was Ironwood. The sound different the upper range. Just like dust caps, profile and how it is attach makes a difference in the sound of the driver. Why do you thing all small drivers are not wide-band? Why do you thing all metal or paper cone list just say 6.5" can not play up to 12-16khz. It is more then just the cone. Now the cone is a very important part of it but not the only part.
> 
> 
> *rugdnit:*
> Next that is the first I have heard of a dust cap becoming loose. They are hard enough to plug out when I try to on the XR drivers. I have use the XR3M as has others for going on 2 years now and no issues of that kind or any other kind. Things happen just like any other product. And 1 out of 50-60 that I sold is not bad. Not to mention the hundreds sold elsewhere in the world. I have have like 3 to get small spit in them which was an easy fix also. It was un-coated Asian Ironwood that the LE used. So it You could have easily connected me and I would have fixed the issue for you!
> 
> Hope your new install does well as i know it will with the Man Bing doing it.


We can take this offline. I would be happy to send them back for you to look at. My mind is certainly not as closed as I may have stated. Didn't really mean for it to take a wrong turn. Your new offerings look outstanding.


----------



## papasin

Wow, lots of discussion, but no harm in my build thread. Just to comment since it is my build thread  and to put it out there, the XR Duo set (XR3M-LEs and XR6.5M), are not straying very far. They will be repurposed into other cars in the family.

As mentioned previously, the XR3M-LEs will be mated to the Image Dynamics X65s and will go in our Honda Odyssey, matched to an IDQ10. I'll get to that probably sometime this winter.

As for the XR6.5Ms, they will actually go in the Smart, paired with HAT ring radiators, with an XR3M-LE center for a 2-seat car. I'm going to try to drag my wife out to compete and force judges to sit in her seating position :laugh:.

I have nothing but good things to say about the AP drivers, have had zero issues with them for a little over a year. As with anything, I do believe that there will always be some issues or imperfections, and the key IMHO is two things:

1. the yield and how many of these happen/take place (there will always be an exception and hopefully not the rule)
2. what the vendor/manufacturer will do to make things right, and as far as my experience (and I'd venture to say many others) with Mark and Audible Physics, I don't know of too many that have not gotten things sorted out

As for the horizontal vs. vertical stacking of the Nz3-A with the AT, thanks for the feedback and thoughts bbfoto. I will certainly consider it, but given the range the AT plays, the sense I get is that vertical vs. horizontal will likely yield negligible difference, if any. My goal is to definitely keep them as close as possible, and the current layout I posted has them at less than 0.125" from each other from Nz3 edge to AT. I suppose we are talking about a couple inches if we're dealing with the driver center. Mark, care to comment on perhaps any suggestions and recommendations on "optimal" placement of AT relative to Nz3-A? From what I've read, the main thing is to ensure they are within 6" of each other.

Again, no harm no foul with respect to things being OT. I can understand wrt having a bad experience with a product, but as is my take, it also is important to consider the 2 points above.

- Richard


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## wdemetrius1

Subscribed.


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## jdmferio13

Can u please make me some a-pillar pods for my civic please.I'll pay


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## JayinMI

He didn't build those. lol. He bought them from another guy on here and modded them. 

Jay


----------



## papasin

jdmferio13 said:


> Can u please make me some a-pillar pods for my civic please.I'll pay





JayinMI said:


> He didn't build those. lol. He bought them from another guy on here and modded them.
> 
> Jay


Correct. But when I get the new setup squared away, can buy these ones as they seem to get passed around lol.


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## IBcivic

papasin said:


> Correct. But when I get the new setup squared away, can buy these ones as they seem to get passed around lol.


Pass it to the left!


----------



## XaznKewLguyX

IBcivic said:


> Pass it to the left!


Lol... ?


----------



## papasin

Back to the install...mocking up the drivers (using oca123's template) on cardboard, and lining things up.


----------



## bbfoto

Looks good! But for the reasons that I stated in my previous post, I would start by aiming them more towards where the dome light typically is, or between the two front seats just behind your head. Do some more listening with the different angles you've chosen to try, and just for S&G's, try each angle with the front windows up and then all the way down.

You can try aiming the driver's side mid & tweet more towards your left ear if you're just setting it up for one seat. I'm sure you'll find the best angles, and probably the exact opposite of what I suggested, lol. You've just got to put in the time and do some listening before you start to fab anything up.

It's obviously impossible to eliminate all of the reflections, but the reflections off of the driver's side window from the passenger side mid & tweet usually wreak havoc on your staging and focus. At least you don't have a large hump over your I.P. to worry about. 

Maybe take a second look at Erin's Civic build log. He's revised his midrange aiming several times to get it right.


----------



## papasin

bbfoto said:


> Looks good! But for the reasons that I stated in my previous post, I would start by aiming them more towards where the dome light typically is, or between the two front seats just behind your head. Do some more listening with the different angles you've chosen to try, and just for S&G's, try each angle with the front windows up and then all the way down.
> 
> You can try aiming the driver's side mid & tweet more towards your left ear if you're just setting it up for one seat. I'm sure you'll find the best angles, and probably the exact opposite of what I suggested, lol. You've just got to put in the time and do some listening before you start to fab anything up.


Thanks for the suggestions bbfoto, but I have tried quite a few different positions, and as I indicated in my previous post, I found various things "pleasing" to my ears depending on the seating position. Recall:



papasin said:


> With that said, I spent a good 2-3 hours this evening/early AM aiming various configurations and listening with the Nz3-A/AT combo.:
> 
> 1. With the driver's seat set at the lowest and all the way back I found that aiming the Nz3-A/ATs toward the opposite B-pillars just at the top of the seat belts to give what my ears what was thought to be most pleasing.
> 2. In my seating position, being just a tad over 5'5" and needing to be able to reach the pedals, aiming the Nz3-A/ATs at the back part of the handle right above each seat seemed to work well.


I also tried your suggestion about rolling windows down vs. up. Maybe my ears aren't trained enough, but it wasn't much of a discernible difference for me. Also as indicated previously, I have tried moving the speakers more on-axis, but this only sounded better if I was sitting all the way back. I'm not knowledgeable enough on the science as to why this might be, so I'll let others comment if they know and care to. But the more on-axis I put them in my seating position, was a bit too "in my face" for me. Also, this may be a 2-seat car in the future, so I don't want to move away from symmetrical aiming.



bbfoto said:


> At least you don't have a large hump over your I.P. to worry about.


Actually, there is a hump on the 8th gen Civics with the digital speedo, but fortunately, it is forward of the window locations where I'm putting the speakers.



bbfoto said:


> Maybe take a second look at Erin's Civic build log. He's revised his midrange aiming several times to get it right.


Trust me, I've looked at his and a few others quite a few times and definitely appreciate their experience in paving the way for someone like me. But as I believe many have said, YMMV and why it's important to try for yourself various permutations, which I assure you I am. Appreciate the feedback. I certainly will continue to welcome them from you and others.

Thanks,
- Richard


----------



## hippopotamus

looking forward to see the finishing of the pillars..


----------



## quality_sound

papasin said:


> Thanks for the suggestions bbfoto, but I have tried quite a few different positions, and as I indicated in my previous post, I found various things "pleasing" to my ears depending on the seating position. Recall:
> 
> 
> 
> I also tried your suggestion about rolling windows down vs. up. Maybe my ears aren't trained enough, but it wasn't much of a discernible difference for me. Also as indicated previously, I have tried moving the speakers more on-axis, but this only sounded better if I was sitting all the way back. I'm not knowledgeable enough on the science as to why this might be, so I'll let others comment if they know and care to. But the more on-axis I put them in my seating position, was a bit too "in my face" for me. Also, this may be a 2-seat car in the future, so I don't want to move away from symmetrical aiming.
> 
> 
> Actually, there is a hump on the 8th gen Civics with the digital speedo, but fortunately, it is forward of the window locations where I'm putting the speakers.
> 
> 
> 
> Trust me, I've looked at his and a few others quite a few times and definitely appreciate their experience in paving the way for someone like me. But as I believe many have said, YMMV and why it's important to try for yourself various permutations, which I assure you I am. Appreciate the feedback. I certainly will continue to welcome them from you and others.
> 
> Thanks,
> - Richard


A good spot to aim for is a few inches below and in front of the ear closest to the opposite window. So you'd sit in the seat where in your driving position and have someone look through the window and mark where your ear is. Then measure 2-3" in front of and below the original mark and that's the aiming point for the pass side speakers. Then switch seats and do the driver's side speaker. 

This was a great method for kicks. For dash pods I'd try the location I mentioned above and the one that's only in front of, but not below, your ear.


----------



## papasin

*Mosconi A-class and Zero 3 wired up*

Some updates...

I spent the last couple evenings wiring up the Mosconi A-class, Zero3, and MS-8 onto the amp rack previously shown. I decided to tech-flex all wires orange (to be consistent with the car) with the exception of the RCAs which were already tech-flexed out of the box. Each wire is properly terminated with color-coded heat shrink and the wires are zip-tied and anchored using cable tie mounts to the rack. 

I don't usually go to this level, but you guys probably know and would be the first to say this takes a fair amount of time...or maybe I'm just slow at this.
It certainly took more time than I expected. Snaking wire through tech flex, crimping, using heat-shrink, etc. is not necessarily the most exciting thing to do and requires time and patience. I'm not sure the pictures give you a good sense, but it was really tight to cram all the wires into such a small space and required lots of mounting/unmounting of components to readjust things to get everything to fit.

Some pics.


















































































Too tired tonight, but tomorrow, I hope to power it up and see how these Mosconis compare.


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## Melodic Acoustic

Looks great sir, Direct mode, Direct mode


----------



## Guest

Interested to see your thoughts on the Mosconi....

Mark, direct mode !!!


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## papasin

Audible Physics said:


> Looks great sir, Direct mode, Direct mode





SQ_MDX said:


> Interested to see your thoughts on the Mosconi....
> 
> Mark, direct mode !!!


Just to confirm, "direct drive" is button up or button down?


----------



## quiet

hey papasin where did you get all your wiring/supplies?(pm if you want to keep your thread clean) great looking install btw, I am about to start on my first SQ build with AP and Mosconi hope to have an install on a similar level as yours.


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## Melodic Acoustic

Down if i remember correctly, You will know, as it will more then like get much louder and the gain will no longer work.


----------



## papasin

quiet said:


> hey papasin where did you get all your wiring/supplies?(pm if you want to keep your thread clean) great looking install btw, I am about to start on my first SQ build with AP and Mosconi hope to have an install on a similar level as yours.


Combination of parts-express and Amazon. I'm sure there are better places though. As for a "similar level", there are others on here I would suggest you pattern instead of mine, as my skills are far from good. I can name several dozen .


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## papasin

Audible Physics said:


> Down if i remember correctly, You will know, as it will more then like get much louder and the gain will no longer work.


Yep, confirmed. I found the manual on the European website.


----------



## papasin

Amp rack, etc. in the car! Some pics...























































Next up, wire up sub and sub-amp with sub-amp to go under my driver's seat...but now I've reclaimed the back of the passenger seats and can fold them back down, if I needed to carry any long items (i.e. snowboards/skis, etc.).

BTW, in case anyone's interested, to secure the amp rack, I searched and searched and found on an 8th Civic, can use an M8-1.25x90mm hex bolt direct to the spare tire mount. Much easier than using the spare tire bolt since this took up much less space and can use a 14mm socket than my fingers. Also wasn't ready to drill into the car.


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## simplicityinsound

holy crap now i know what you did all day lol


----------



## papasin

simplicityinsound said:


> holy crap now i know what you did all day lol


Hehe, getting the amp rack in there with all the amps and MS-8 pre-mounted didn't take long, as you probably know better than anyone, wiring them up outside the car was what took some time which I did the past few evenings.

But the day isn't done yet! 

For those of you who have listened to my tune, I often get the complaints on the sub-bass. I must be a SPL guy/bass head deep down lol.

So let's fix that with a bass knob 

Popped out an empty blank










A little Dremel action










Secure the bass knob board (after taking apart the chassis)



















And bass knob installed










Sub-amp goes in tomorrow, and power everything up!


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## jtaudioacc

papasin said:


> Sub-amp goes in tomorrow, and power everything up!


be careful not to try any spl bursts with them macaroni amps, we've seen what happens when you do. :laugh::laugh::laugh: j/k


----------



## papasin

jtaudioacc said:


> be careful not to try any spl bursts with them macaroni amps, we've seen what happens when you do. :laugh::laugh::laugh: j/k


No worries. I'm not using a Mosconi for my sub-amp. No way I can fit a Zero under my seat!


----------



## IBcivic

****... guess I should get my ass in gear

Nice job, man!


----------



## papasin

IBcivic said:


> ****... guess I should get my ass in gear
> 
> Nice job, man!


Thanks, but wish I had a fraction of yours, Bing's, JT's, Jay's, Ryan's, Mark's, etc. to name a mere few's install skills. For "quiet", these are some of the guys you need to look up and pattern, not me.

I may switch gears actually during the weekend to my wife's Smart, or maybe both, we'll see. Will try to also get my wife to help me with some soldering, not because I can't, but because she's better. I mean, she solders on Mars rover hardware for crying out loud. 

IBCivic, see, I have two car-related projects too!


----------



## simplicityinsound

papasin said:


> Thanks, but wish I had a fraction of yours, Bing's, JT's, Jay's, Ryan's, Mark's, etc. to name a mere few's install skills. For "quiet", these are some of the guys you need to look up and pattern, not me.
> 
> I may switch gears actually during the weekend to my wife's Smart, or maybe both, we'll see. Will try to also get my wife to help me with some soldering, not because I can't, but because she's better. I mean, she solders on Mars rover hardware for crying out loud.
> 
> IBCivic, see, I have two car-related projects too!



to achieve a fraction of JT's skills, all you have to do is eat at Chipotle and Mcdonalds all day.


----------



## simplicityinsound

on the serious side, i do wanna see if you hear a difference in sound right away, since all you did was change amps


----------



## papasin

simplicityinsound said:


> on the serious side, i do wanna see if you hear a difference in sound right away, since all you did was change amps


Will report back, but I can see an amp topology debate waiting to happen .


----------



## IBcivic

simplicityinsound said:


> to achieve a fraction of JT's skills, all you have to do is eat at Chipotle and Mcdonalds all day.


I knew I was on to something:laugh::laugh:


----------



## papasin

simplicityinsound said:


> to achieve a fraction of JT's skills, all you have to do is eat at Chipotle and Mcdonalds all day.





IBcivic said:


> I knew I was on to something:laugh::laugh:


Bing goes for Korean BBQ. I just need to know what Ryan, Jay, and Mark eat then. :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## quiet

Do you already have or have decided on which sub amp? Im in the same boat, not much room for another amp with the as 200.4 and whatever dsp I end up with.


----------



## papasin

quiet said:


> Do you already have or have decided on which sub amp? Im in the same boat, not much room for another amp with the as 200.4 and whatever dsp I end up with.


I'm going to be using the Alpine PDX-M6 from page 1 for now.


----------



## Fantaxp7

Hey Papasin, nice thread.

I'm curious on your overall impressions with the ID XS65 component set you had awhile back. I just bought these but after lurking through threads like this I have been gaining curiousity with Audible Physics mid range woofers. I have my ID's just sitting around as I am still planning out my install...But how would you compare the ID's with the Audible Physics mid ranges you have had?

Thanks


----------



## papasin

Fantaxp7 said:


> Hey Papasin, nice thread.
> 
> I'm curious on your overall impressions with the ID XS65 component set you had awhile back. I just bought these but after lurking through threads like this I have been gaining curiousity with Audible Physics mid range woofers. I have my ID's just sitting around as I am still planning out my install...But how would you compare the ID's with the Audible Physics mid ranges you have had?
> 
> Thanks


When I was using the IDs for this car, my main challenge was placement of the tweeters. The XS28 as you probably know are pretty large. So I ended up mounting those in the kicks. They worked ok, assuming you are sitting all the way back...but even so, the stage height suffered a little. As you've probably read, I'm not the tallest of folks and so sitting all the way back is not an option for me and be able to reach the clutch ...so in my seating position, let's just say the ID set was far from optimum. Also, as Bing pointed out with my interior, I did get some rainbowing. YMMV on your car and your interior and the XS65 might work well for your application.

As for an A/B comparison between the IDXS65 and the Audible Physics set(s) I've used and using, that IMHO is an apples and oranges comparison. When you mention "mids", keep in mind that the ID set is relying on the woofer to play a good deal of the mid-range frequency, whereas both my Audible Physics setups are relying on the 3" widebanders to play roughly 300Hz all the way up while being mounted in the small window locations. I have chosen to use the XR6.5Ms and Arians to perform strict midbass duty, but that's not to say that they are not capable of playing the higher octaves. In fact, both of these are "super-widebanders", so these will play from ~65/70Hz all the way up. So what it boils down to (in my not so expert opinion) is your install. Having all the vocal frequencies in the 3" though is something you will not be able to do with the XS65, so for my $0.02, I would give the AP the nod (and one of the main reasons I'm using them  ).

Hope that helps.


----------



## Fantaxp7

papasin said:


> When I was using the IDs for this car, my main challenge was placement of the tweeters. The XS28 as you probably know are pretty large. So I ended up mounting those in the kicks. They worked ok, assuming you are sitting all the way back...but even so, the stage height suffered a little. As you've probably read, I'm not the tallest of folks and so sitting all the way back is not an option for me and be able to reach the clutch ...so in my seating position, let's just say the ID set was far from optimum. Also, as Bing pointed out with my interior, I did get some rainbowing. YMMV on your car and your interior and the XS65 might work well for your application.
> 
> As for an A/B comparison between the IDXS65 and the Audible Physics set(s) I've used and using, that IMHO is an apples and oranges comparison. When you mention "mids", keep in mind that the ID set is relying on the woofer to play a good deal of the mid-range frequency, whereas both my Audible Physics setups are relying on the 3" widebanders to play roughly 300Hz all the way up while being mounted in the small window locations. I have chosen to use the XR6.5Ms and Arians to perform strict midbass duty, but that's not to say that they are not capable of playing the higher octaves. In fact, both of these are "super-widebanders", so these will play from ~65/70Hz all the way up. So what it boils down to (in my not so expert opinion) is your install. Having all the vocal frequencies in the 3" though is something you will not be able to do with the XS65, so for my $0.02, I would give the AP the nod (and one of the main reasons I'm using them  ).
> 
> Hope that helps.


Thanks, that definitely helps.

I ordered a single Nza for center channel duty and I am afraid once I got my setup complete that I will like it too much and want all Audible Physics . 

But I am sure the ID's will work out well, just gotta wait and see I guess.


----------



## JayinMI

papasin said:


> Bing goes for Korean BBQ. I just need to know what Ryan, Jay, and Mark eat then. :laugh: :laugh:


McDonalds, Gang Gai (Thai Curry Chicken), Tubby's subs (local place), Little Caesars, etc. LOL

Jay


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> McDonalds, Gang Gai (Thai Curry Chicken), Tubby's subs (local place), Little Caesars, etc. LOL
> 
> Jay


LOL. So far, McDonalds seems to be the common one...with the exception of Bing who has expressed his disdain for them :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## simplicityinsound

the only thing i will eat at MCD is breakfast which is pretty tasty...but tahts it.


----------



## req

nice progress from the start dude,

but if i were you i would NOT use that particle board wood for an amprack. i know it has a cool laminate white top, but you will be sorry that you did. the screws will rattle out and it will just fall apart - and if there is any moisture its going to wick it up like bread and pasta sauce, then fall apart in a mess.

in order of best to worse (off the top of my head, and my opinion) regarding moisture\strength

marine grade birch plywood
regular build grade plywood
MDF (medium density fiberboard)
OSB (oriented strand board)
particle boardpressboard

get a piece of birch plywood. screws bite really well, glue works really well, and it is highly moisture resistant, and waaaay stronger.

i would hate to see those amps come loose after a weeks driving on bumpy roads and get damaged


----------



## papasin

req said:


> nice progress from the start dude,
> 
> but if i were you i would NOT use that particle board wood for an amprack. i know it has a cool laminate white top, but you will be sorry that you did. the screws will rattle out and it will just fall apart - and if there is any moisture its going to wick it up like bread and pasta sauce, then fall apart in a mess.
> 
> in order of best to worse (off the top of my head, and my opinion) regarding moisture\strength
> 
> marine grade birch plywood
> regular build grade plywood
> MDF (medium density fiberboard)
> OSB (oriented strand board)
> particle boardpressboard
> 
> get a piece of birch plywood. screws bite really well, glue works really well, and it is highly moisture resistant, and waaaay stronger.
> 
> i would hate to see those amps come loose after a weeks driving on bumpy roads and get damaged


Thanks. Wish you or someone said something earlier (say post #106 or even #172).


----------



## IBcivic

simplicityinsound said:


> the only thing i will eat at MCD is breakfast which is pretty tasty...but tahts it.


I admit to have taken a liking to the steak n cheese, mornin' bagel(un-available in Canukistan)


----------



## JayinMI

The McD's near my work has Egg and Cheese mcmuffins/mcgriddles/biscuits...for like $1.29 So, I usually get those and then put a hashbrown on them. They're pretty good.

Jay


----------



## req

papasin said:


> Thanks. Wish you or someone said something earlier (say post #106 or even #172).



sorry dude! i just read the whole thread for the first time when i posted that!

i just hope you are not too far along in your build that its not something that is too difficult to change at this point. but i would not wait too long. i had an amprack for my false floor with two memphis amps, a h701, power and ground distros, techflex, tiedown straps, the whole 9. after i had it in for a year or so i was cleaning the carpet for a show and noticed screws all over the place. this was with 1\2" MDF, and the screws were 1\2". it turns out that the screws pulled through the wood and the screw holes were stripped. little piles of sawdust wherever the screw hole was. i guess the vibration from driving around did its work. so now i only use hardwood or plywood for amp racks... moisture and vibrations with MDF or lower grade wood just do not hold up to my standard of time.

i just hope this helps you in the long run dude 

this is a good read for you i think!

http://americanwoodworker.com/blogs/shop/archive/2009/02/18/mdf-and-particleboard.aspx


----------



## quiet

Nice article req. Im glad I read it before I start on my rebuild. My current amp rack was messed up pretty bad from a leaking third break light, and I think that may have helped with the death of my amp.


----------



## simplicityinsound

the one good ting about here is how dry it is, very low humidity, so your PB might be okay short run. sorry i didnt spot it, i was looking at the amps 

b


----------



## papasin

simplicityinsound said:


> the one good ting about here is how dry it is, very low humidity, so your PB might be okay short run. sorry i didnt spot it, i was looking at the amps
> 
> b





req said:


> sorry dude! i just read the whole thread for the first time when i posted that!
> 
> i just hope you are not too far along in your build that its not something that is too difficult to change at this point. but i would not wait too long. i had an amprack for my false floor with two memphis amps, a h701, power and ground distros, techflex, tiedown straps, the whole 9. after i had it in for a year or so i was cleaning the carpet for a show and noticed screws all over the place. this was with 1\2" MDF, and the screws were 1\2". it turns out that the screws pulled through the wood and the screw holes were stripped. little piles of sawdust wherever the screw hole was. i guess the vibration from driving around did its work. so now i only use hardwood or plywood for amp racks... moisture and vibrations with MDF or lower grade wood just do not hold up to my standard of time.
> 
> i just hope this helps you in the long run dude
> 
> this is a good read for you i think!
> 
> MDF and Particleboard - The Woodworker's Shop - American Woodworker


Thanks folks for the feedback. So I get why PB is not the best and not trying to defend that, but curious to get opinions (say from the McDs eating/breakfast crowd) on MDF for amp racks. Unless I'm mistaken isn't this what many of you use in your installs for both yourselves and your customers? I note sometimes with threaded inserts, but also in some cases with screws.


----------



## req

personally i find that screws just dont hold into mdf well over time. i am almost positive that bing uses something similar to MDF, i cant think of the name of the stuff off the top of my head though. i may be wrong.

either way, particle board is super weak and screws will tear out of it really easy. all that super cheap furniture is made of MDF and particle board these days. it is really hard to find hard wood based stuff that will last more than a few years anymore... i saw a guy use MDF on his amp rack a few years back, predrilled the holes, used glue and everything. it was a basic thing with one amp on the floor and a rack built above it on a platform of mdf, and the mdf just cracked at the screw holes and the amp rack collapsed due to the lateral forces and the vibrations of driving down the road after a few months.

use metal reinforcement where you can - L brackets are you friend.
predrilll all your holes
use long screws if you can
always use wood glue where wood-wood contact is made
t-nuts and threadded inserts\hurricane nuts are also really awesome
i would not recommend using MDF at all in a door speaker installation

im sure bing has more tips as well


----------



## Justin Zazzi

I will second all of req's tips and add:

-fiberglass resin or other sealers can help prevent moisture from saturating mdf or other porous materials in a moist environment (if used as a baffle in a door for example)
-I've found particle-based materials like mdf or particle board are good with compressive loads, but cannot handle much tension (one reason why screw holes routinely strip out)
-sheet metal screws, drywall screws, and generally most other very coarse thread screws if installed and removed more than a couple times will fit more and more loosely and eventually fail. This is true for fastening to wood, sheet metal, drywall, etc. Threaded machine screws and threaded nuts or inserts are best for anything that may need to be serviced in the future
-Screw size #4-40 is great for small items like tweeters or small midrange drivers, #8-32 has plenty of strength most things like midbass drivers, subwoofers, processors or amplifiers, and #10-32 if you need extra strength for especially heavy components or subwoofers)

As for MDF use in amp racks, you are right that lots of people use it as a construction material. However not all MDF is the same and there are countless stories of people discovering their local Home Depot or hardware store's sheets are lightweight, leak air, or have some other glaring flaw. I do not ask a lot from the wood I purchase and find the local hardware store variety works alright _for what I do_, but I bet Bing and other installers could elaborate on this more.


----------



## FLYONWALL9

So, I have been thinking about this and to say using one material or another after someone has already made it to the stage you have IMHO is wrong. I do see the points that have been made, and I for one know what it means to building on a budget. Honestly for building an amp rack that likely may not get wet, I've used MDF many times with no issues at all. If you do have an issue steps can be taken to fix a pulled screw in wood aside from fiberglass or other suggestions. Woodworkers have done it for hundreds of years, sure on hard woods or various other woods. But I think you are fine, I would by no means redo what you have already done until you have an issue. Don't fix what isn't already broken. Even then you can fix a pulled out screw with something as simple as a toothpick or threaded inserts.

What is done, let it be done and move on. IF and its a big if, you have an issue you can then worry about it. If you lived in an area where it is VERY wet like where I live sure I would redo it.


----------



## req

i can agree with that flyonwall.

if it is super dry where you live and the amp rack holds tight - keep it... but i would keep a close eye on the fasteners for the amplifiers.

maybe if they do start to have problems look into T nuts before you rebuild it. but next time, i would at least never use particle board again. in the future i would at least stick to MDF or a good plywood.


----------



## simplicityinsound

yeah there are definetly different grades of MDF...home depot mdf is pretty porrous so i only get it from western lumber.

now to prevent screws from backing out of mdf...basically its the same reason why screws back out of anything, vibrations cause the head to turn and once it gets past a certain point, the whole thing will tear out. so for me, the best way is to prvent the initial turning of the head...and you can do 3 things:

1. use only pan head or truss head screws on a flat surface, if you use a standard wood screw, use a flush bit and put that into the mdf first, you want maximum contact area.

2. you can use a lock washer but what i have found to be most effective is a single lil drop of CA glue (superglue if you wish) onto the screw head where the head meets the wood, thats it. its strong enough to hold the head so it doesnt turn, ye4 never gonna stand up to a powered screw driver turning it.

3. threaded insert / tnut etc of some type, but again, very time consuming.

my own car is mdf and screws (no inserts, no bolts except one), and the system was 5 years old when i sold it...not a single thing was loose as anyone who has seen it and seen me shake the whole car by grabbing the amp and pulling  never had to tighten a singl screw.

b


----------



## req

you do need to factor in the humidity of the area though bing. where you live its warm+dry. where i live is very humid and the temperature fluctuates quite a bit and sometimes there can be condensation on the amplifier or speaker motor in the morning if it got real warm the night before.

that condensation will soften up that wood. my whole deal is mostly about making sure you pre-drill your holes and making sure there is no moisture intrusion.


pre drilling!














this is what i mean by particle board failing.












particle board water damage


----------



## papasin

Thanks everyone for the constructive feedback, but message heard the first time and nothing like :dead_horse:  .

I'll keep an eye on the current amp rack but already have thoughts/ideas that should address the concerns expressed. The PB if anything will serve as a working template  (EDIT: assuming it doesn't disintegrate , but it will probably be ok as previously pointed out in the short-term...car is garaged and weather here already pointed out).


----------



## FLYONWALL9

papasin said:


> Thanks everyone for the constructive feedback, but message heard the first time and nothing like :dead_horse:  .
> 
> I'll keep an eye on the current amp rack but already have thoughts/ideas that should address the concerns expressed. The PB if anything will serve as a working template  (EDIT: assuming it doesn't disintegrate , but it will probably be ok as previously pointed out in the short-term...car is garaged and weather here already pointed out).


Rock on....


----------



## Sound Suggestions

Sub'd! Definitely some nice work here


----------



## IBcivic

Stay tuned for more...
It's all I can say w/o violating the gag order.


----------



## papasin

IBcivic said:


> Stay tuned for more...
> It's all I can say w/o violating the gag order.


Hehe, yes, some updates this coming fall/winter. Some you don't even know about .


----------



## scooter99

Why would I not be surprised that you have one of those Martin? LOL!


----------



## bertholomey

I'm watching this build with nervous anticipation as well....the equipment list is extremely impressive, and these items appear to be in the hands of someone who knows how to use them....(of course that is not a reference to the gag ball)


----------



## IBcivic

scooter99 said:


> Why would I not be surprised that you have one of those Martin? LOL!


It's not mine..... (a la Austin Powers)

Richard threatened to put it on me, if I talked:blush:


----------



## papasin

ROFL. You guys are hilarious.

Jason, I consider myself a novice in comparison to many others on DIYMA...but one thing I have learned from the wizards around here is that an impressive equipment list won't guarantee great sound. A great install and tune will often trump even the best equipment. I'm also not shy in getting help as this car will not just be "my build" this fall/winter and will be getting some assistance from folks that have install and tuning skills far beyond my abilities. So the ball gag has been loosened ...but not removed. That's all I will say for now.


----------



## papasin

*Big 3, XS Power D3400*

Nothing too exciting, but this took longer than expected.

Out with the old battery.










Obligatory comparison of OEM ground with 1/0 OFC.



















And how things came together. Using XS Power D3400, with EFX Delta D Clamp by Scosche for battery terminals, and everything covered in split loom and color-coded heat shrink.


----------



## E46 M3 Studmuffin

Subscribed. looking to do something like this to the m3 . Good luck


----------



## mitchjr

I just recently bought an '09 lx sedan, and I'm starting on my install slowly. I was wondering what you did to seal up your doors. The huge holes with the window motor in them look like they are gonna suck. I'm gonna have a sort of similar front stage, but with fountek fr-88 widebanders in the little windows. They look very similar to the audible physics drivers?


----------



## papasin

mitchjr said:


> I was wondering what you did to seal up your doors. The huge holes with the window motor in them look like they are gonna suck.


Mass Loaded Vinyl 48W w/Closed Cell (per foot)-Super Soundproofing Store


----------



## mitchjr

Oh, I see. You basically draped the MLV over the whole door.


----------



## papasin

mitchjr said:


> Oh, I see. You basically draped the MLV over the whole door.


Can't take credit for the technique. See here:

ftp://ftp.sounddeadenershowdown.com/tutorials/doors.pdf

I have CLD on both the outer and inner skin as well. The MLV I used is 1/8" fused with 1/4" CCF. I know there's a debate of whether to do it separately or not, I chose the fused route as it saved me quite a bit of time. Trick is to get it to close up .


----------



## mitchjr

Ya, on my last car I covered the holes with some 1/4 wood and I was wanting to completely seal off the holes again, but I don't think I can achieve that with these doors. The hole is way bigger on the civic and with that window motor right in the center. And the motor sticks out past the door metal a little bit. I have a bunch of 1/8 sheet metal plates that I had planned to use, but it doesn't look good.


----------



## co_leonard

*Re: Big 3, XS Power D3400*



papasin said:


> Nothing too exciting, but this took longer than expected.
> 
> Out with the old battery.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obligatory comparison of OEM ground with 1/0 OFC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And how things came together. Using XS Power D3400, with EFX Delta D Clamp by Scosche for battery terminals, and everything covered in split loom and color-coded heat shrink.


Very nice build! 

Just curious, the XSPower battery is bigger in some dimensions compared to the stock battery. Did you have to put something under the battery so that it doesn't rock around?


----------



## papasin

*Re: Big 3, XS Power D3400*



co_leonard said:


> Very nice build!
> 
> Just curious, the XSPower battery is bigger in some dimensions compared to the stock battery. Did you have to put something under the battery so that it doesn't rock around?


Thanks, your build is quite impressive.

Depends which battery. A D5100R is a drop-in replacement. D3400 (what I'm using) requires some slight modifications. I bent back the battery tabs, bought a wider tie down, and removed the battery cover and plastic holder. Nothing major though. There's a good DIY on 8thCivic that I patterned for the battery install portion.

DIY: Upgrade Your Battery.....By:07mugencivic (no56k) - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum


----------



## co_leonard

*Re: Big 3, XS Power D3400*



papasin said:


> Thanks, your build is quite impressive.
> 
> Depends which battery. A D5100R is a drop-in replacement. D3400 (what I'm using) requires some slight modifications. I bent back the battery tabs, bought a wider tie down, and removed the battery cover and plastic holder. Nothing major though. There's a good DIY on 8thCivic that I patterned for the battery install portion.
> 
> DIY: Upgrade Your Battery.....By:07mugencivic (no56k) - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum


Oh yeah, from the guy who likes to "take a break!"


----------



## papasin

*Some updates...*

As the title says, some updates. Quite a few of these were done a couple weeks back and just getting around to posting the pics. Thought I had more, so apologies in advance if something was left out.

First, here's the run of OFC 1/0 AWG from the Stinger circuit breaker under the hood going to the trunk, tech-flexed the whole run in red for main power. Along side is run of 4 AWG from trunk to sub amp under driver's seat to be shown later. This is all parallel to a giant split loom already in a nice channel under driver's seat. I chose to run it here to prevent "bulging" up the 1/0 while running under the carpet.










And up through the side of the back seat on the driver's side.










Some wiring for the sub-amp under driver's seat.



















Out with the MS-8 and in went a 6to8. This helped with the room on the amp rack, and of course, manual tuning for a manual car.  Sorry in advance for the lighting.


----------



## papasin

*More updates...*

Before getting to the sub amp, I took the plunge and upgraded to the 10W6v2 from the 10W3v3. I looked at a few different subs, including the Morel Ultimo, SEAS Lotus SW-250/1, Illusion Audio Carbon C10 XL, and the 10W6 among others. I decided to stick with the JL for a couple reasons.

1. Some of the aforementioned subs had a cutout diameter larger than the Audio Integrations enclosure I'm using, and I did not want to mod the enclosure.
2. I really like the integrated grill and how it seamlessly blends with the enclosure's trim ring.

Some comparison pics.



















While I was at it, I replaced the Polyfill that was included in the Audio Integrations enclosure with Focal Blackhole Stuff.










Finally, some pics of the sub-amp. Way back from page 1, it's the same Alpine PDX-M6 that I used. Works great, efficient, 650W RMS on the birthsheet at 14.4V, and perfect form factor to go under the seat.

With the seat pushed all the way forward.










For you folks with OCD, it's shifted to the left on purpose to give the heating duct some room. Here's a pic with my normal seating position.










For you taller folks (and some of you know I'm not a tall person), the amp completely "disappears" with the seat pushed all the way back.

So with the two Mosconis for the front stage in the spare tire well, and the sub amp under the driver's seat, I've claimed my passthru back! I also realized I have A (ok, hybrid A, A/B) for the Nz3s, A/B for the Arians, and D for the sub...basically a different topology/class for each stage. My flame suit is ready for the amp topology war. 

More to come over the next couple weeks!


----------



## Justin Zazzi

You could call it B/A/D ... or BAD topology for short.

Can't wait to see this completed!


----------



## papasin

Jazzi said:


> You could call it B/A/D ... or BAD topology for short.
> 
> Can't wait to see this completed!


Silly, you know it's never done .


----------



## co_leonard

Love the amps!
Love the DSP!
Love the way you labelled the RCA terminals!
Love the barrier strip!


----------



## papasin

co_leonard said:


> Love the amps!
> Love the DSP!
> Love the way you labelled the RCA terminals!
> Love the barrier strip!


Maraming salamat po.


----------



## wdemetrius1

Looking Good!!!


----------



## papasin

Just a few more pics...

New subwoofer installed with the Audio Integrations enclosure. Minimal change in look (very subtle difference, which is exactly what I wanted).

Before with 10w3v3:



















After with 10w6v2:



















Some pics of the amps powered on. Hard to capture the amps glow/lighting and best witnessed in person .


----------



## bkjay

Looks good man. How do you like the w6 vs the w3?


----------



## papasin

bkjay said:


> Looks good man. How do you like the w6 vs the w3?


Not enough time yet to form a solid opinion. I'll let you and others know in a few weeks.

Up next, turning this over to a pro to get new pillars fabricated for the Nz3/ATs. Stay tuned...


----------



## badfish

I think I saw some pillars at someone's house we were playing fetch with the neighbours dog. Lol


----------



## papasin

Dropped off the car while I'm off for a mini vacation before kids go back to school.



badfish said:


> I think I saw some pillars at someone's house we were playing fetch with the neighbours dog. Lol


Pillars looked fine to me John. I think you're mistaken and the dog gnawed at your doors. At least that was what those looked like to me.


----------



## badfish

No the dog ate half the door panels


----------



## papasin

Been on vacation the past few days at the wonderful world of Disney in SoCal. But along with that vacation, came an ulterior motive . Before taking a solid 3 days at Disneyland and CA Adventure Parks (with the new Carsland, which is pretty impressive btw), I dropped off the car to JT (jtaudioacc) to get pillars professionally done since I don't trust my fabrication skills at this level!

Anyway, I can't say enough about how happy I am as to how they turned out. Many thanks to JT for his patience and willingess to take my side seat driving . The pictures are ones I got via my phone from JT, but I think they are good representations and IMHO even more impressive in person.



















JT will be the first to tell you that these pillars are more of a PITA as some people probably think. I'll let him comment if necessary, but let's just say they aren't the easiest things to get in and out!

Also, many thanks to BigRed for the tuning time. He'll be the first to admit that there's some more work to be done, not to mention a couple things that I need to address...but I think it's a good start. Tonality is excellent IMHO. Staging is also quite good (and yes, there's one preset for me and one for the people who are much taller  ).

I am also looking forward to getting other trained ears to take a listen, but overall, I think it's the start of something that can be improved upon as time goes by.

EDIT: I'll take additional pics when I return to the Bay Area. I'm still down in SoCal and driving back up tomorrow...but quite ecstatic with the pillars that I didn't want to wait to post .


----------



## bbfoto

Those look awesome. I'm sure you'll enjoy the drive home even more now.


----------



## JayinMI

Nice. Those give a nice example of how small the AMT's really are. 
It took me a couple of days to get used to not being able to look out the little windows on my car...but I think more of that was the fact that I was doing it on purpose...I never looked through them before I built my pods.

I certainly hope you will be able to exceed the quality of the previous iteration. But I can't see how you wouldn't. 

Great...now I need to go to FL, GA, AL, AND CA! When I win the lottery...lol

Jay


----------



## papasin

bbfoto said:


> Those look awesome. I'm sure you'll enjoy the drive home even more now.


Thanks!

As for an enjoyable ride, unfortunately I'm not going to be listening to what I necessarily want. I'm driving up with my two kids in car seats in the back and they'll want to listen to the audio being piped in from their headrest monitors...so what I'll be listening to most of the way up isn't going to be my kind of music .



JayinMI said:


> Nice. Those give a nice example of how small the AMT's really are.
> It took me a couple of days to get used to not being able to look out the little windows on my car...but I think more of that was the fact that I was doing it on purpose...I never looked through them before I built my pods.
> 
> I certainly hope you will be able to exceed the quality of the previous iteration. But I can't see how you wouldn't.
> 
> Great...now I need to go to FL, GA, AL, AND CA! When I win the lottery...lol
> 
> Jay


If you recall, I had pods in there previously and that was there for over a year. I can't even recall looking out those little windows in the years they've been blocked off now lol.

As for making the trip out to CA, you're welcome to take a listen Jay if you make your way out here, but definitely don't make the trip on my car's account. There are quite a few cars out here that you should seek out long before mine. I could name at least half a dozen cars. Just take a look at this thread:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/140145-who-heavy-hitters-now.html

So the CA cars from this list that I spot are:

Fred Lynch's Saturn
Brian Mitchell's Cruze
Vince Miranda's Scion
Jim Becker's Big Red

IMHO, I would add to that list these two cars: SQHemi's Charger (3-time consecutive MECA MODEX CA champion) who just edged out in 2012 CA state championship Gary Summer's Mercedes (2010 MECA MODEX World Champion)

Here's what Erin (bikinpunk) had to say after figuring out who Gary is 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1150472-post190.html

...so my car is a long long way from being at the level off some of these!


----------



## ErinH

As long as I've had pods I've never missed the window or had issues seeing out. We sedan owners got lucky! 


Good looking job on those pillars!


----------



## papasin

bikinpunk said:


> As long as I've had pods I've never missed the window or had issues seeing out. We sedan owners got lucky!
> 
> 
> Good looking job on those pillars!


Thanks Erin, but kudos on the pillar job definitely goes to JT! I should also add a shout out and thanks to you regarding the pillars. Let's just say JT and I referred to your build log a little bit .


----------



## ErinH

papasin said:


> JT will be the first to tell you that these pillars are more of a PITA as some people probably think. I'll let him comment if necessary, but let's just say they aren't the easiest things to get in and out!


Curious what issues you had here. I probably ran in to the same thing. Had I known you guys were going to look at my build log, I would've offered up my phone # if it would have helped. lol.


----------



## papasin

bikinpunk said:


> Curious what issues you had here. I probably ran in to the same thing. Had I known you guys were going to look at my build log, I would've offered up my phone # if it would have helped. lol.


I appreciate it Erin. I unfortunately was of little help as I was at Disney with the wife and kids and let JT do all the hard work . JT just mentioned the clearance and the angles on the driver side were especially tight. The pillars are fully sealed with pods formed around the little window. But to get them back in, JT skipped and completely removed the little vent piece to get them to contort into place. I maybe explaining this wrong, so I'll let JT chime in when he gets a chance. I have no complaints with the end result though .


----------



## rdubbs

Pillars look amazing! As always I wish I lived in Cali so I could come take a listen! JT did some incredible work as usual!


----------



## IBcivic

rdubbs said:


> I wish I lived in Cali


Me too


----------



## ErinH

papasin said:


> I appreciate it Erin. I unfortunately was of little help as I was at Disney with the wife and kids and let JT do all the hard work . JT just mentioned the clearance and the angles on the driver side were especially tight. The pillars are fully sealed with pods formed around the little window. But to get them back in, JT skipped and completely removed the little vent piece to get them to contort into place. I maybe explaining this wrong, so I'll let JT chime in when he gets a chance. I have no complaints with the end result though .


No worries. I was at WDW last month. We're huge Disney nuts. Was my daughters first time at the ripe age of two and she had a blast. We're already planning our trip back in October. Growing up is for the old!


----------



## papasin

bikinpunk said:


> No worries. I was at WDW last month. We're huge Disney nuts. Was my daughters first time at the ripe age of two and she had a blast. We're already planning our trip back in October. Growing up is for the old!


This is my daughter's first time as well and she turned two just last Saturday....but a few months makes a huge difference as we took our son when he was about 2 years and 5 mo. He's nearly 7 now so was a big helper already . In contrast, her patience for wait times was 20 mins tops. Fortunately, we fast-passed the one ride we really wanted to go on, and the main rides with long wait times we pretty much hit between 7-10am (we were able to go into the park an hour early with our passes as the park was open to the general public at 8am). That extra hour made a world of difference to keep our longest wait time at 25 mins.

Been to WDW a couple times, but SoCal is the place to go if you want the JT Disney special. He knows how to make magic happen. And I'm not just talking about the pillars . Thanks again JT!


----------



## LovesMusic

Jt did an absolutely incredible job with those pillars papa...I always had a thing for hondas sporty 4drs!

Nice job with the build. quality...and keepin it classy.


----------



## wdemetrius1

I agree the pillars look great!!!


----------



## jtaudioacc

papasin said:


> Been to WDW a couple times, but SoCal is the place to go if you want the JT Disney special. He knows how to make magic happen. And I'm not just talking about the pillars . Thanks again JT!


that doesn't sound good.  :laugh::laugh:


----------



## papasin

jtaudioacc said:


> that doesn't sound good.  :laugh::laugh:


Get your mind out of the gutter...sheesh 

EDIT: Not to mention, I'm not the one who said "this is where the magic happens" and that other Disney reference....


----------



## BigRed

jtaudioacc said:


> that doesn't sound good.  :laugh::laugh:


Sounds like a reach around party. Hahaha


----------



## papasin

BigRed said:


> Sounds like a reach around party. Hahaha


Hmmm, I'm not the one there frequently, so if that's what is going on during your tuning sessions, I'm not going to be the one to rat you out. Remember, I wasn't there.  :laugh:


----------



## BigRed

You're the one expressing "magic" at jt's


----------



## papasin

BigRed said:


> You're the one expressing "magic" at jt's


Except I wasn't the one who said the quote below :surprised:.



papasin said:


> "this is where the magic happens"


Anyway, let's clean this up please in case my wife ever goes on the forums .

Back on track, as soon as the sun comes out (it's raining and colder up here in NorCal), I'll snap some additional pics of the pillars and front stage. But cold is relative...JT was complaining about how cold SoCal has been, while Martin was asking me about wanting to switch places .


----------



## IBcivic

I'll keep my snow


----------



## papasin

Sigh. I guess I'm never going to hear the end of this either. First the whole particle board discussion, now this :worried:. BTW, the PB has been fine thus far .


----------



## bigbubba

I spent most of yesterday outside working on the pillars for my truck, trying to add this same speaker set. Was trying to figure out were I was going to put the transducer. Then I came in while I was letting the fiberglas dry and saw this pic. Perfect! 

Great looking system so far and love the pillars.


----------



## BigRed

Jt did a fine magical job


----------



## papasin

More pics as promised...


----------



## Justin Zazzi

Those look really, really nice. Well done JT.


----------



## papasin

Was getting some resonance in my doors. A dose of deadener, CCF, and foam stuffed in the cavities did the trick.


----------



## IBcivic

Nice n clean door treatment. When all else fails...I use duct seal putty(home depot or lowes) and put a layer between the 2 surfaces and press the door trim into the putty. (works best in the summer time).

Did you find the magnets, yet?


----------



## papasin

Good tip Martin. I had the foam lying around from a Pelican case, and it's great as I can separate it out into strips as needed.

My apologies as I have not even opened the package yet. Between work, the kids activities, and the other builds, been tough to find time...but round grills are on the list for an initial solution. I have additional updates I am working on for the upcoming comp on this car, as well as the two others so it's definitely a juggling act .


----------



## IBcivic

No rush...the midget in box probably suffocated, by now.


----------



## papasin

The things you will do to get someone to CA .


----------



## simplicityinsound

papasin said:


> Was getting some resonance in my doors. A dose of deadener, CCF, and foam stuffed in the cavities did the trick.


yes! someone else agreed with my assessment of putting cld and ccf on the door cards  I used to have big debates with peeps about it hahaha


----------



## papasin

simplicityinsound said:


> yes! someone else agreed with my assessment of putting cld and ccf on the door cards  I used to have big debates with peeps about it hahaha


The foam was my idea after looking around in my garage what I could use to stuff in those crevices ...but I take no credit for the CLD and CCF as I borrowed the idea from the door card below.










You know, the guy you and your wife complain about that drives slow and only eats at McDonalds and Chipotle  :laugh:.


----------



## JayinMI

I usually put the most CLD type materials on the panel (if I only have a certain amount to work with). I feel the plastic is more likely to rattle and vibrate than the metal (unless it's a Honda or something, ).

I'd be more inclined to do the recommended 25-50% on the door itself, and 50% or more on the door card. I've had good results with this.

Jay


----------



## Golden Ear

Just finishing reading the thread. Great job on everything!

I've had that exact same sub/amp combo JL/Alpine for almost 2 years now and I love it. I just built a 1 cubic foot box for it and it sounds great. How are you liking it in your car? Any chance to listen and tune it yet?

Keep up the good work! I hope to get to meet you and more of our areas car audio enthusiasts.


----------



## papasin

Golden Ear said:


> Just finishing reading the thread. Great job on everything!
> 
> I've had that exact same sub/amp combo JL/Alpine for almost 2 years now and I love it. I just built a 1 cubic foot box for it and it sounds great. How are you liking it in your car? Any chance to listen and tune it yet?
> 
> Keep up the good work! I hope to get to meet you and more of our areas car audio enthusiasts.


The AI Civic fiberglass box is listed to have an internal airspace of .85 -.90 cubic feet. As mentioned, I re-stuffed it with Focal Blackhole Stuff, so should be comparable to a 1 cubic foot box. The bass is locked up front which I am quite happy with, and my general impression on the W3 vs. W6 is that the latter is less boomy. Of course, there are a few other variables that have changed in my set-up, so take that assessment with a grain of salt.

I'm working on the tune some today but have to admit I'm a novice so we'll see how more well trained ears rate it at Autorama. Speaking of that, have less than 7 days and I still have the other builds to get ready too and it's been slower than expected .


----------



## papasin

Fired up the router, cut some rings, and covered with grill cloth.










Personally, I think I like the look better without the grill, but will try this out for a bit at least for daily use to keep hands from playing with the cone...as Mark says .

Thanks for the magnets Martin!


----------



## JayinMI

Nice. I haven't made grilles for mine yet, though I planned for it in the design. I like the way they look w/o them, but eventually they will probably get a set. 
Unless I redo the pillar pods for something else...if I rumor I heard was tru, that may actually happen. If not, then grilles it is!

Looks kind strange with the mid covered and the "tweeter" showing, but covering it would have made the grille more complicated.

Jay


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> Looks kind strange with the mid covered and the "tweeter" showing, but covering it would have made the grille more complicated.


Yep, right there with you. I'll call this v1, and a possible v2 is on the horizon...where a CNC might be involved .


----------



## JayinMI

A CNC might be a little excessive (but convenient if you have access to one). You could probably do it with a router and a few pieces of 1/8" or 1/4" mdf to make a pattern.

What kind of magnets did you use? I was planning to use magnets on mine (when I get around to making them) that attach to the screws I used to mount the speakers since the tweeter body seems to be plastic.

Jay


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> A CNC might be a little excessive (but convenient if you have access to one). You could probably do it with a router and a few pieces of 1/8" or 1/4" mdf to make a pattern.
> 
> What kind of magnets did you use? I was planning to use magnets on mine (when I get around to making them) that attach to the screws I used to mount the speakers since the tweeter body seems to be plastic.
> 
> Jay


No no, I'm not getting a CNC just for that lol. But as for being excessive, isn't that the nature of this hobby .

Check with Martin (IBCivic) on the magnets as he sent them to me (post 273). Heck, you guys are in the same timezone and you can probably just cross the border and pick some up from him . But I attached them to the screws too. 

Also, better pics later tonight...and maybe some other updates .


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

Looks good sir, but glad I see how it looks now with the grille just over the mid.


----------



## JayinMI

papasin said:


> No no, I'm not getting a CNC just for that lol. But as for being excessive, isn't that the nature of this hobby .
> 
> Check with Martin (IBCivic) on the magnets as he sent them to me (post 273). Heck, you guys are in the same timezone and you can probably just cross the border and pick some up from him . But I attached them to the screws too.
> 
> Also, better pics later tonight...and maybe some other updates .


Martin is up near Quebec, so it's not exactly just a hop, skip and a jump. It's not like he's in Windsor. I'd have to ask him to bring French Toast Crunch and some Campbell's Scotch Broth.

Jay


----------



## Golden Ear

papasin said:


> Also, better pics later tonight...and maybe some other updates .


It's been an hour, bring on the pics!


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> Martin is up near Quebec, so it's not exactly just a hop, skip and a jump. It's not like he's in Windsor. I'd have to ask him to bring French Toast Crunch and some Campbell's Scotch Broth.
> 
> Jay


Certainly closer than CA lol .


----------



## papasin

Golden Ear said:


> It's been an hour, bring on the pics!


Slavedriver.

Without:










With:


----------



## Golden Ear

Very nice. Did you leave the aat uncovered so as not to muffle the sound?


----------



## subwoofery

papasin said:


> Fired up the router, cut some rings, and covered with grill cloth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think I like the look better without the grill, but will try this out for a bit at least for daily use to keep hands from playing with the cone...as Mark says .
> 
> Thanks for the magnets Martin!


You might prefer the look without the grill because the pillar weren't designed with a grill <-- might be the reason, who knows  
Personally, I think you did a really good job :thumbsup:

Kelvin


----------



## co_leonard

Very nice! How much volume do you have behind your full-rangers?


----------



## papasin

Golden Ear said:


> Very nice. Did you leave the aat uncovered so as not to muffle the sound?


Grill cloth is transparent, so there should be no muffling for mid or highs. 

It's uncovered at the moment because a circle jig cuts circles quite easily .


----------



## papasin

subwoofery said:


> You might prefer the look without the grill because the pillar weren't designed with a grill <-- might be the reason, who knows
> Personally, I think you did a really good job :thumbsup:
> 
> Kelvin


Very well could be. If it's just me then I'm not too worried leaving them uncovered. But with a 2 and 7 year old, and when I have passengers, having grills definitely gives a little extra peace of mind.


----------



## papasin

co_leonard said:


> Very nice! How much volume do you have behind your full-rangers?


They are in about 0.7L sealed enclosure.


----------



## Golden Ear

papasin said:


> It's uncovered at the moment because a circle jig cuts circles quite easily .


You don't have an oval jig? You need to get one.


----------



## papasin

Literally just got back from the Autorama competition...with highest score ever for my Civic with a 78 which is the good news. The bad news is that Modified in CA is OMG crazy this year. A 78 was only good enough for 5th (out of 7), with top 3 cars all low 80s. And no, they are no kidding good since same judge for modified on up, and best sq score was a master class car with an 88.

It's looking to be a really good year for Modified on up in CA despite some of the discussions in the rules thread .


----------



## wdemetrius1

I really like the look of the AAT without a grill.


----------



## papasin

*Updates...*

Been a little bit since my last post on this build log. So about time for some requisite updates .

First, I have now tried 4 processors with the combo of the OEM HU+Mercman harness+processor, namely:

1. JBL MS-8
2. Mosconi 6to8
3. Rockford 3Sixty.3
4. Alpine H800

In this processor hunt, I also wanted to achieve a couple additional goals, namely incorporate rear fill, and have the ability to easily and quickly change input sources and also tweak EQ, T/A, etc. from both a laptop OR a controller.

With these various considerations, I settled on the H800 as this of the 4 above is the only one that allowed me to achieve all these goals. The 3Sixty.3 comes with a controller, but allows you to only switch presets and adjust subwoofer level and a couple other things. 6to8 controller is pretty similar in function as the 3Sixty.3, albeit a little more elegant. Here is a pic of the Alpine controller mounted under the little pocket under my HVAC controls (sorry for the crappy iPhone pic):










Works great and perfect spot IME.

As mentioned, also wanted to incorporate rear fill. I had a couple Polk dB series speakers lying around, and with the range my rear fill is set up for (~300Hz to 7kHz), I didn't really need anything too over the top. Quick pic:










Here are pics of the H800 in the trunk.





































Also a couple more pics of the controller.



















The second part, let me start off by saying this "upgrade" has been on my mind for almost two years. And before someone makes a comparison to another SQ-oriented Civic located in AL , even though he got his 8s in his car first, I've been thinking about this when he still had his Scans before swapping to the JLs .

Also, before I knew what I do now, I was silly enough to actually use one of these as a replacement to essentially perform midbass duty for the OEM sub in the SI to hold me over before I picked up the AI enclosure and a "real" sub.

Regardless, I knew I needed to do something quite a bit different than other kick or floor installs I've seen in Civics given much tighter constraints since the SI is not an automatic . With 8" midbasses in an 8th gen Civic SI sedan, doors are next to an impossible option given the glovebox (coupes are not necessarily easy, but more feasible with their doors). Kicks are quite challenging for stick shift 8ths...with one person hinting to forget about it in these Civics and is pretty much a non-starter with the clutch. Other things worth noting that would need to be done include likely relocating a few things such as the hood release, possibly fuse boxes, and the ECU (which for this car is behind the right kickpanel).

I did not dismiss this idea though, but definitely knew it was something I wanted to take to someone who would do it right, and to make it look as if it rolled out of the factory that way. So I went back and talked to JT who you guys very well know built my A-pillars. I don't have the car back yet, but want to give everyone a preview of how it was (and CAN) be done.

Pics below and ALL the credit go to JT's amazing work!

Here is the JL ZR800 midbass with a routered ring










Next up, the entire area taped off ready for fiberglass mold










Test fit of the midbass and ring into the stock kick panel










and finally, without further ado the finished kick panels with the JL ZR800s














































I have not seen or heard these in person yet as I won't be picking up the car until next weekend, but I can't wait!


----------



## Bluenote

Awesome! Id like to hear your impressions of the H800 as well, once you have it all dialed in. Congrats!


----------



## rdubbs

Again, looks totally amazing! Obviously you don't use the dead peddle to rest your foot in that California traffic 

Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'm assuming you're ditching having the Arians in your doors for the JL's, or are you running a 3 way system now?


----------



## mattyjman

those are great looking kicks... very well done. 

do you have any additional venting for the amps? doesn't the A Class get really hot without additional venting in that area?


----------



## papasin

Bluenote said:


> Awesome! Id like to hear your impressions of the H800 as well, once you have it all dialed in. Congrats!


There should be some opportunity for some meets (i.e. Bing's grand opening for example) that you can form your own opinion .



rdubbs said:


> Again, looks totally amazing! Obviously you don't use the dead peddle to rest your foot in that California traffic


Hehe, actually, that is one of the things JT and I discussed for some time. I knew going this route I'd lose it...but I do (and I guess did) use it a lot... especially during the drives from Norcal to Socal. I guess I'll experience it first hand on the way back next weekend! :surprised:



rdubbs said:


> Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'm assuming you're ditching having the Arians in your doors for the JL's, or are you running a 3 way system now?


Arians are out of the doors, but will make its way into one of my other cars .



mattyjman said:


> those are great looking kicks... very well done.


Thanks, all the credit goes to JT! 



mattyjman said:


> do you have any additional venting for the amps? doesn't the A Class get really hot without additional venting in that area?


Not at this time, but have had it in there that way since December and haven't had any issues. The A Class does get warm to the touch, but it doesn't go into protect and probably because it doesn't get as hot here in CA as it does there in AZ . I may add some fans to add some additional circulation, but need to think of a way to vent the hot air out or get cool air in given the fully sealed off area and don't want to compromise the layer of MLV .


----------



## papasin

I am always open to suggestions. PM away .


----------



## papasin

delete


----------



## BigRed

the zr800's sound great in your car as is Richard...don't trip  very nice sounding midbass


----------



## papasin

BigRed said:


> the zr800's sound great in your car as is Richard...don't trip  very nice sounding midbass


Thanks Jim. Coming from you that means a lot. Don't worry, not tripping...especially as I have yet to hear the car and I'll definitely form my own opinion, and knowing JTs install skills, I have little doubts . See you guys Saturday.


----------



## papasin

Got some extended listening time over the last few days. To sum it up in one word: WOW. I can unequivocally say this is the best the Civic has sounded.

EDIT: Where are my manners...got a little too excited with how great the car sounds . Many many thanks to JT for the awesome front stage both in form and function, and equally to BigRed for the great tune!


----------



## Golden Ear

I concur, the car sounds GREAT!


----------



## BigRed

Congrats on your strong placement over the weekend at the MECA comp.

Any complaints on the midbass? hehehe


----------



## req

yeah man, those kicks look fantastic!


----------



## papasin

BigRed said:


> Congrats on your strong placement over the weekend at the MECA comp.
> 
> Any complaints on the midbass? hehehe


Still recovering from the long drive back, but yeah, had its strongest showing with a score of 81.5. The midbasses (and for that matter the entire system) rocked . The key comments were "Nice and real. Only very little things."

Thanks to you and JT for all the help! You guys have made the post below come to fruition. Now the secret is out .



papasin said:


> A great install and tune will often trump even the best equipment. I'm also not shy in getting help as this car will not just be "my build" this fall/winter and will be getting some assistance from folks that have install and tuning skills far beyond my abilities. So the ball gag has been loosened ...but not removed. That's all I will say for now.


----------



## papasin

req said:


> yeah man, those kicks look fantastic!


Thanks! Yep, again, all the credit goes to JT. They look and work great! No hint of choking the driver or rattling/resonance.


----------



## bbfoto

Nice work on those kicks, JT! Does the extended lip at the bottom of the driver's side kickpanel enclosure cover the carpet where the dead pedal used to be? ...wondering why it's not more like the passenger side kick (I prefer the shape of it more.)

So Richard, did you end up missing your dead pedal on your drive back home? The sound is probably worth the sacrifice, though, right? 

Congrats on your showing at the comp, too. Very nice.

Were you running the rear fill for the comp? Wondering why you HP'd them so high? Mine usually work best overall around ~160Hz & up, and I'm using 3.5" coaxials mounted about about shoulder-level in my rear hatch (couldn't get them higher due to the rear glass).

Anyway, I can see why you are pleased with the new setup.  Wish I could hear it...gonna try to make it to Bing's opening, but I kind of work on an "on-call" schedule, so can't guarantee it.

Enjoy your system, man!


----------



## jtaudioacc

bbfoto said:


> Nice work on those kicks, JT! Does the extended lip at the bottom of the driver's side kickpanel enclosure cover the carpet where the dead pedal used to be? ...wondering why it's not more like the passenger side kick (I prefer the shape of it more.)


yeah, both sides are very different. drivers side yes, to cover the dead pedal.

both 8's are positioned to fit without interfering with dash, or pedals. oh, and also to keep structural integrity.


----------



## DAT

Congrats Richard on the excellent job

:thumbsup:


----------



## wdemetrius1

I'm Loving the 8's install!!! I wish I could get a listen.


----------



## papasin

wdemetrius1 said:


> I'm Loving the 8's install!!! I wish I could get a listen.


If req starts now, he can pick you up on the way, and you guys should just make it for Bing's open house  :laugh:.


----------



## papasin

bbfoto said:


> So Richard, did you end up missing your dead pedal on your drive back home? The sound is probably worth the sacrifice, though, right?


Yes, JT and I discussed this several times as I mentioned a few posts up. Still getting used to it, but I'll live .




bbfoto said:


> Wish I could hear it...gonna try to make it to Bing's opening, but I kind of work on an "on-call" schedule, so can't guarantee it.


I plan on being there. If you make it, just look for my car...the color is hard to miss .


----------



## wdemetrius1

papasin said:


> If req starts now, he can pick you up on the way, and you guys should just make it for Bing's open house  :laugh:.



^^

Req, PM me when your're on your way!!!


----------



## papasin

wdemetrius1 said:


> ^^
> 
> Req, PM me when your're on your way!!!


D, I hope you realize I was kidding. It's only because req posted this:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1877607-post39.html

.


----------



## papasin

*New grills for the Nz3-A/AT*

Forgot to post these. New grills for the Nz3-A/ATs in the A-pillars (also fabricated by JT).


----------



## Justin Zazzi

The Civic with JT's brilliant pillar and midbass fabrication and Jim's help tuning is - what is the word - deadly? I am really impressed with the results and more inspired to step up my game because the bar has been raised.

Well done.


----------



## Golden Ear

papasin said:


> They look and work great! No hint of choking the driver or rattling/resonance.


I concur with this  The car sounds great!


----------



## bbfoto

Lovin' the new pillar grills, too. 

Any more build pics of the kickpanel enclosures? I need some tips from the master for my install...gotta step it up now, too!


----------



## Bluenote

The system in this car really exemplifies a great execution of design and performance. I heard it a Bing's Grand Opening and was really pleased with how it all came together. The kicks and pillars are practically OEM and sounds great. Papasin thanks for the demo.


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

I heard Richard's car at Bing's yesterday as well. Very impressive. No location cues whatsoever. Very nice!


----------



## papasin

Thanks guys! Your cars are very well executed and appreciate you letting me take a listen.


----------



## jtaudioacc

bbfoto said:


> Lovin' the new pillar grills, too.
> 
> Any more build pics of the kickpanel enclosures? I need some tips from the master for my install...gotta step it up now, too!


here's one...


----------



## bbfoto

jtaudioacc said:


> here's one...


Awww man, c'mon! Such a tease! 

I like the bright yellow tape tho'.  Actually, looking back, Richard already posted enough of the kickpanel build photos to put together the pieces. Thanks. Looks great, just jealous, that's all.


----------



## jtaudioacc

it's fairly straightforward, full fiberglass back...ring...some special shaping and marglass.


----------



## SiR_Dave

Man this car has really come along!! Looks Outstanding..

also looking to get the PXA-H800 for my Civic as well  the PXA H701 has seen better days


----------



## bbfoto

jtaudioacc said:


> it's fairly straightforward, full fiberglass back...ring...some special shaping and marglass.


Thanks. Yeah. My problem mostly comes when it's time to finish them. I SUCK at vinyl wrapping, but it's probably because I end up using crappy vinyl that doesn't stretch. Plus I'm sure that I don't do this as often as you.  They look great.


----------



## DAT

Kinda late, but just noticed your grills, JT does great work...


----------



## papasin

DAT said:


> JT does great work...


Yes he does


----------



## Rishi S

Congrats very nice install. Good job


----------



## edouble101

Kick panels look great!

How do they sound sealed?


----------



## papasin

Thanks everyone...things have come together quite nicely and enjoy how everything complements each other, both in form and function. I'll say it again, many many thanks to JT and BigRed for the help in taking this to the next level.

As for how everything sounds, I really like it, and so do the MECA judges that have heard it . Had excellent success the last couple of comps. My daughter has taken a liking to the recent hardware we brought home from only a couple days ago .


----------



## JayinMI

Stop letting your daughter wear Crocs, right now! What are you trying to do to her? LOL

Jay


----------



## mitchjr

Haha, my daughter's wear those, and I always say "what's that piece of foam on your feet?, put on some shoes.


----------



## papasin

You guys can take that up with my wife. Good luck with that one. BigRed can tell you how tough and competitive she is .

EDIT: Oh wait, he already did. 




BigRed said:


> His wife is more competitive than him. Believe that


----------



## MrsPapasin

This is the wife. What's wrong with Crocs? Didn't realize the fashion police reads this thread or that the type of shoes you wear has anything to do with car audio. How does that affect SQ? Is this better?


----------



## ErinH

my daughter wears crocs. 

if you have a problem with that, PM and I'll provide my address.

PS: please bring me some pizza.


----------



## quality_sound

MrsPapasin said:


> This is the wife. What's wrong with Crocs? Didn't realize the fashion police reads this thread or that the type of shoes you wear has anything to do with car audio. How does that affect SQ? Is this better?


It's called "ribbing". It's what guys do. It's not personal at all. Relax, it's fine. 



bikinpunk said:


> my daughter wears crocs.
> 
> if you have a problem with that, PM and I'll provide my address.
> 
> PS: please bring me some pizza.


See, Erin gets it.


----------



## ErinH

actually, I DO have a problem with the Dora crocs.

I mean, Mickey Mouse... Pluto... Minnie... that's great. I'm down with it. But... Dora? Come on, Mr & Mrs Papasin. Where does your loyalty lie? Nickelodeon? Really!?


----------



## MrsPapasin

You "GUYS" clearly don't get it. Chicks can "rib" too. . We're just much more subtle about it.

I have no loyalties to Nickelodeon. I'm an equal opportunity buyer of Crocs.  How do you like these "GUYS"?


----------



## Golden Ear

Hahaha The Mrs ftw!


----------



## quality_sound

MrsPapasin said:


> You "GUYS" clearly don't get it. Chicks can "rib" too. . We're just much more subtle about it.
> 
> I have no loyalties to Nickelodeon. I'm an equal opportunity buyer of Crocs.  How do you like these "GUYS"?


Ya got me! Ya gotta use those smileys!!!


----------



## astrochex

MrsPapasin said:


> You "GUYS" clearly don't get it. Chicks can "rib" too. . We're just much more subtle about it.
> 
> I have no loyalties to Nickelodeon. I'm an equal opportunity buyer of Crocs.  How do you like these "GUYS"?


Where are the Misters?


----------



## papasin

astrochex said:


> Where are the Misters?


I pick my own shoes Paul, thanks.


----------



## BigRed

Richard wears smart mk1's


----------



## MrsPapasin

astrochex said:


> Where are the Misters?


Oh you just gave me an idea what to get Richard for Father's Day!

Honey, make sure to wear them to the next comp. They'll be in redline orange pearl color to match your car. . I'm sure that'll get you extra points!


----------



## papasin

MrsPapasin said:


> Oh you just gave me an idea what to get Richard for Father's Day!
> 
> Honey, make sure to wear them to the next comp. They'll be in redline orange pearl color to match your car. . I'm sure that'll get you extra points!


Uh, sorry dear, I don't compete in install, but last I checked, you did and got the 1st place trophy .



BigRed said:


> Richard wears smart mk1's


Honey, maybe you should wear what BigRed mentioned to get those extra install points .


----------



## MrsPapasin

papasin said:


> Uh, sorry dear, I don't compete in install, but last I checked, you did and got the 1st place trophy .
> 
> 
> 
> Honey, maybe you should wear these to get those extra install points .


Sure. Whatever gives me the most competitive advantage. . I'll have special smart mk1 crocs made for the family. .


----------



## papasin

MrsPapasin said:


> Sure. Whatever gives me the most competitive advantage. . I'll have special smart mk1 crocs made for the family. .


Jay, this is all your fault!


----------



## Golden Ear

As long as we don't catch Richard wearing them its all good


----------



## captainobvious

Richard- The install looks fantastic. It takes a vision of two so congrats to you and JT. I don't think I'll ever get the chance ot hear this one but it sure looks fine 

I'm also working on 8's in the kicks, but in my mazda. Wish I had some of the fab skil of JT right about now...I'd save myself a boatload of time.


-Steve


----------



## papasin

captainobvious said:


> Richard- The install looks fantastic. It takes a vision of two so congrats to you and JT. I don't think I'll ever get the chance ot hear this one but it sure looks fine
> 
> I'm also working on 8's in the kicks, but in my mazda. Wish I had some of the fab skil of JT right about now...I'd save myself a boatload of time.
> 
> 
> -Steve


Thanks Steve! Bing already commented on the secret on how to get JT's fab skill (post 187 or so). See below.  :laugh:



simplicityinsound said:


> to achieve a fraction of JT's skills, all you have to do is eat at Chipotle and Mcdonalds all day.


In all seriousness though, JT's work is fantastic. I see a new build coming out this summer to add to the ones I've posted already. Stay tuned...


----------



## JayinMI

papasin said:


> Jay, this is all your fault!


Who? Me?

LOL


Jay


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> Who? Me?
> 
> LOL
> 
> 
> Jay


Uh, yeah.










Still waiting for an explanation of what you have against Crocs... 



JayinMI said:


> Stop letting your daughter wear Crocs, right now! What are you trying to do to her? LOL
> 
> Jay


----------



## JayinMI

It's like Black and Tan. It's a crime of fashion...


and they look silly. Especially on grown ups. I give my GF crap about hers all the time. lol

(BTW, I literally LOL'd...and it was a bad day, so I needed that. haha)

Jay


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> It's like Black and Tan. It's a *crime of fashion*...
> 
> 
> and they look silly. Especially on grown ups. I give my GF crap about hers all the time. lol
> 
> (BTW, I literally LOL'd...and it was a bad day, so I needed that. haha)
> 
> Jay


So my wife was right. You are the fashion police!   :laugh:


----------



## JayinMI

It was a Psych reference. lol
Actually, I've also heard they have terrible arch support that might be bad for small children.

Jay


----------



## quality_sound

There is ZERO arch support. It's just foam, and soft foam at that.


----------



## MrsPapasin

Oh wow, this forum is so cool! One stop shop! It has fashion experts, Drs. of podiatry, and SQ enthusiasts. Where else in the world can I get advice on all three?

Should I wear my Manolo's or Kuru's to my next comp with my Street Class winning Smart car? What's the priority? Fashion or arch support? What gets me more points?

Also in your expert opinion Drs. Jay and Paul, since my eclectic collection of Crocs are frowned upon by both fashion and podiatry standards, should I use them as CCF for my car since they are just foam and soft foam at that? Wow that's so cool. I guess Crocs do have something to do with SQ!


----------



## MrsPapasin

Oh I forgot the smiley's.     

I forgot that you guys can't tell when I'm "ribbing."

Hah hah! Take that!


----------



## papasin

Walk away. Trust me, just walk away .


----------



## Golden Ear

Hahaha!!! Please wear the Manolos to the next comp but only if they are the Bloniks(hopefully I spelled that wrong in order to appear somewhat manly). When the kids outgrow the crocs I'll stuff them in my doors 

But seriously, at least grown men should not wear crocs...it's just wrong.


----------



## slade1274

JayinMI said:


> It was a Psych reference. lol
> Actually, I've also heard they have terrible arch support that might be bad for small children.
> 
> Jay





quality_sound said:


> There is ZERO arch support. It's just foam, and soft foam at that.


...._supporting_ the arch defeats its purpose.


sorry for continuing the tangent and giving additional unsolicited podiatry opinions, but there it is.


----------



## astrochex

papasin said:


> Walk away. Trust me, just walk away .


It may be too late.


----------



## beaster24

Read through your build and all I can say is wow. Great job with the build papasin. I have a 2012 civic si sedan and i'm looking at all of my options for what I want to do. I might have to ask you a few questions with your 8th gen bc I know they are somewhat similar.


----------



## papasin

^ yeah, feel free to PM me. Happy to help, and my mom has a 9th gen EX sedan so know that body style decently well. U won't have the cool little windows though. The stock tweeter locations seem pretty nice however.


----------



## beaster24

Sounds good. Yeah the stock tweeter location isn't too bad, but i know most people have had to modify the location bc the aftermarket tweeters are larger which wouldn't be too big of a deal. I do wish it had the small window like the 8th gens so I could do something similar to what you have, but I guess I have to work with what I have.


----------



## papasin

beaster24 said:


> I do wish it had the small window like the 8th gens so I could do something similar to what you have, but I guess I have to work with what I have.


The sail area of the 9th gen has a little section that you might be able to do something like this.


----------



## beaster24

papasin said:


> The sail area of the 9th gen has a little section that you might be able to do something like this.



Yeah it does, but I was wondering how well that would work with the way the door opens. Where did you find that build? I would be interested to see how he did that


----------



## papasin

beaster24 said:


> Yeah it does, but I was wondering how well that would work with the way the door opens. Where did you find that build? I would be interested to see how he did that


That was done in a Toyota Prius C. It was done by JT (same person that built my pillars and kicks). You can check out his work on Facebook . https://www.facebook.com/jtaudioacc

Here's another example in a Honda Accord where you can see the door open.


----------



## beaster24

Yeah those look good. If only I trusted myself to attempt that yet and I don't have the tools with living in an apartment right now. Does he do this work for fun or does he own a shop?


----------



## quality_sound

He has a shop in SoCal.


----------



## papasin

quality_sound said:


> He has a shop in SoCal.


Actually, he works out of his garage, ex-Bing style .


----------



## eddieg

papasin said:


> The sail area of the 9th gen has a little section that you might be able to do something like this.


Hi there - I have a question regarding the volume behind the speaker. 

Shouldn't there be some volume in order to let that driver play correctly at its low frequency range? 

Where it is being xovered? 

Thanks!

Eddie


----------



## jtaudioacc

eddieg said:


> Hi there - I have a question regarding the volume behind the speaker.
> 
> Shouldn't there be some volume in order to let that driver play correctly at its low frequency range?
> 
> Where it is being xovered?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Eddie


this one plays down into the door cavity. crossed at around 300-350, i don't remember exactly. whatever the bit ten freq is in the 300's.


----------



## eddieg

I see - but is there just a air way passage towards the door or is it a sealed enclosure? 

Just to understand how these are usually built. 

Thanks! 

Eddie


----------



## wdemetrius1

Looks great Richard!!!


----------



## jtaudioacc

it's not sealed. the bottom is open venting into the door panel


----------



## eddieg

Nice - just gave me something to consider for my L3SE's 

Thanks!


----------



## papasin

wdemetrius1 said:


> Looks great Richard!!!


My install is the same. The ones above are just examples of JT's work


----------



## quality_sound

papasin said:


> Actually, he works out of his garage, ex-Bing style .


Same same. lol


----------



## iScream

jtaudioacc said:


> it's not sealed. the bottom is open venting into the door panel


I'm confused about this. Bikinpunk recommended the ZR800 to me and suggested I check out this thread. But I'm not following how the kick panel enclosures vent into the door panels.

Could you please explain the kick panel enclosures a little better?

Thanks,
Chris


----------



## papasin

iScream said:


> I'm confused about this. Bikinpunk recommended the ZR800 to me and suggested I check out this thread. But I'm not following how the kick panel enclosures vent into the door panels.
> 
> Could you please explain the kick panel enclosures a little better?
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris


You are confusing the mid/widebander pods I linked above which are for a Prius C. I used these as an example of JT's work for the other fellow looking for a way to mount a fullrange driver in a 9th gen Civic.


----------



## papasin

quality_sound said:


> Same same. lol


Hehe, yeah, and so do most DIY guys . Just that Bing now has a nice shop with Joey .


----------



## iScream

papasin said:


> You are confusing the mid/widebander pods I linked above which are for a Prius C. I used these as an example of JT's work for the other fellow looking for a way to mount a fullrange driver in a 9th gen Civic.


OK, so your ZR800's are in sealed kick panel enclosures? Do you know the volume by any chance?

Very nice build, by the way.


----------



## papasin

iScream said:


> OK, so your ZR800's are in sealed kick panel enclosures? Do you know the volume by any chance?
> 
> Very nice build, by the way.


Thanks. Sorry, don't know the volume. One thing for sure is that they are not vented externally like Erin's (bikinpunk) or Todd's (highly) builds. They work reasonably well for folks that have heard it .


----------



## iScream

papasin said:


> Thanks. Sorry, don't know the volume. One thing for sure is that they are not vented externally like Erin's (bikinpunk) or Todd's (highly) builds. They work reasonably well for folks that have heard it .


No problem. It's interesting to see them used in a fairly small sealed enclosure. I thought JL marketed them as most suitable for IB.

I'm assuming you're bandpassing them. Mind if I ask where you have the low pass filter set, to hand things off to your mid range?


----------



## BigRed

They are not sealed. Maybe Richard can chime in on the band pass. I don't remember


----------



## papasin

Chris, sorry for any confusion. I only answered your question about not knowing the volume but didn't mean to lead you to believe they are sealed. Sorry about that.

Jim is right, pretty sure they aren't sealed...but haven't actually opened up the kicks as I am too gunshy since I essentially gave up creative control when I turned the build over to the pros . The grills are on there pretty good, and I don't really want to pull them unless I have to (i.e. if I have to replace a bad driver). I spoke to JT about them, he mentioned venting them behind and up towards my dash, but not externally thru vents nor to the outside world...hence what I meant not knowing the volume and indicating they are not the same as bikinpunk or highly. Unlike theirs, mine aren't "true IB", but to be clear apparently are not sealed either.

As for the bandpass, I have a few different presets depending on how I'm listening, etc. But for the most part, they are running between 50-200ish, and the widebanders are picking up at around 250 and letting cabin gain do the rest.

Hope that helps.


----------



## Rishi S

very nice install


----------



## mnjordan

Man I love this install!


----------



## Golden Ear

mnjordan said:


> Man I love this install!


If you think the install is great you should hear it. It sounds amazing!


----------



## papasin

Rishi S said:


> very nice install





mnjordan said:


> Man I love this install!





Golden Ear said:


> If you think the install is great you should hear it. It sounds amazing!


Thanks guys! Countless thanks to jtaudioacc and BigRed for their fabrication and tuning help, as well as the many others on here that have helped me along the way. But as we all know, we're never done, so a might see some updates in the not too distant future  .


----------



## JayinMI

jtaudioacc said:


> yeah, both sides are very different. drivers side yes, to cover the dead pedal.
> 
> both 8's are positioned to fit without interfering with dash, or pedals. oh, and also to keep structural integrity.


JT, can you kind of expand on how these kicks are vented into the dash?
I'm considering running 7's or 8's in the kicks and I'm not real keen on the idea of cutting holes to the outside of my car (at least not until I've got some idea if they will perform how I want). The only other option I see is to remove the wiring plugs in the kick, and sort of seal them into the kick/rocker area. I'm looking at options.

Thanks.


----------



## papasin

Since Erin nudged me lol...some non-audio updates.

Been looking for a good rear-entertainment solution for the two kids...and no, rear-fill isn't gonna cut it .

With a couple iPads readily available, I went on a hunt for sleek headrest mounts. Honestly, there are a lot out there but not very many that I liked. I finally settled on this one:










What's good?

It basically acts as an integrated case with a kickstand for the iPad that easily slides in and out of the headrest mount. The headrest mount is a very slim piece that clamps onto the headrest and powers and charges the iPad. When the iPads are not docked/mounted, hardly notice that is there. I bought a couple extra headrest mounts for our minivan to easily transfer the iPads from vehicle to vehicle. Some pics.
































































What I don't like?

Well, only one thing so far, and this could easily fall under the what is good if you want to get wireless headphones. The case comes with a built-in fm transmitter for the wireless headphones...and if you note in the rear shot, there is an a/b switch for two separate channels. What I don't like is that when you slide the case into the headrest mount, it defaults the sound to be muted and only go through the fm even if a wired headset is plugged into the iPad. There is a key sequence (pause, play like 4 times over 3 seconds) to get sound active vs. fm transmission, but this has to be done every time the case is plugged in, or car powers the case. Our 7.5 year old can do this, but the 2.5 year old not so much and have to do it every time for her.

Other than that one con...more for me, have very happy passengers .


----------



## papasin

Been a little bit since the last update, so a couple additions to the boot .



















and to protect against cargo










Had a great time and lots of fun at the 2013 MECA CA State Finals. Modified was the most competed class with 6 cars IIRC with stiff competition where IMHO anyone could have won as all 6 of us have podiumed at one time or another during the season. Honestly, I was not expecting to finish as well as I did and would like to congratulate everyone in my class and John (badfish) for edging me out. Even though I have enough points, I will not be making the trek to Worlds this year. Good luck to those in my class headed to Worlds. Will be rooting for you guys to represent CA well!


----------



## captainobvious

Wow, nice job Richard! Congrats on the second place finish at state finals as well! I don't see the results up yet on the MECA site  What were your three scores?


As for the latest update, I assume those are the 12" XL version? Please give us your thoughts on them. They look terrific 


-Steve


----------



## BigRed

The only sub that I had to turn 20hz down


----------



## wdemetrius1

Congratulations on winning 2nd place in your class!!!


----------



## JayinMI

Congrats!!! Great job.

Are the subs sealed or IB?


Jay


----------



## papasin

Sealed


----------



## Golden Ear

Congrats Richard! 

If I may, the subs sound incredible. Obviously there's going to be a big difference between 1 10" and 2 12"s, but the sound quality difference is apparent. The bass just sounds so good. Definitely the best sub I've ever heard and my new favorite. Good call going with the C12xl!


----------



## Golden Ear

Dare I say it sounds more like a drum when it's supposed to rather than a subwoofer.


----------



## papasin

captainobvious said:


> I don't see the results up yet on the MECA site


Scores are now posted for MECA CA state finals. 3 out of the 6 cars in modified from CA will be headed to Worlds, so if you're able to get to listen to them I encourage you to do so. They're a good bunch of guys and are happy to let folks listen to their cars, and I'm rooting for them! 

Meanwhile, updates from me upcoming...


----------



## badfish

Ssshhhh


----------



## badfish

Someone needs to back to work!!


----------



## papasin

badfish said:


> Someone needs to back to work!!


I'd be so much happier if I could go back to work. If you can get the federal government to un-furlough me and about 800,000 others, I'm sure we'd be more than happy to!


----------



## ErinH

Aren't you guys getting back pay? 

NASA, I take it? Just going off your location. I had a few years' stint with them on Ares I US MPS 'til Obama and Bolden shut that show down.  Much happier where I am now, though, so it worked out well for me, thankfully. 

Anyway... Good luck with all that BS. Hopefully you guys will get back to work soon so I can feel like my tax dollars are actually going to something. I have a lot of friends in the same boat as you right now here in Huntsville. Commercial seems to be where it's at anymore. :/


----------



## papasin

bikinpunk said:


> Aren't you guys getting back pay?


Not yet. Last I checked, it passed the House, but the Senate hasn't...

Back Pay Bill in Senate Limbo - Pay & Benefits - GovExec.com

IIRC, they did backpay folks in 1995 and I was already working for them then, albeit as an intern, so at that time all this wasn't so "important".



bikinpunk said:


> NASA, I take it? Just going off your location. I had a few years' stint with them on Ares 'til Obama and Bolden shut that show down. Much happier where I am now, though, so it worked out well for me.
> 
> Anyway... Good luck with all that BS. Commercial seems to be where it's at anymore.


Yes, both my wife and myself are NASA civil servant federal employees (vs. govt. contractors). A large part of the staff that are still working are the contractors, many who are supporting the ISS in orbit, a satellite we have orbiting the sun (IRIS), one we just sent to the moon (LADEE), rovers we still have on Mars, etc. There are civil servant folks in my branch that I authorized to work. Of the 60 people in my branch that I manage, I authorized 4 of them to be "essential" since they work on these missions.

Personally, I'm not looking for handouts, and I'd much rather work and plan my vacation accordingly than be forced not to work and just wait and figure out when we should go back.

As for commercial vs. govt., the Silicon Valley certainly has plenty of opportunities, but we've made a commitment in our careers to work for NASA and we are quite happy there. We have an ethics clause that we can't work in similar fields even through this furlough, so it's not like we can moonlight for Apple or Google for the time being.


----------



## papasin

bikinpunk said:


> Hopefully you guys will get back to work soon so I can feel like my tax dollars are actually going to something.


Believe me, many I know in this situation would rather work...and I personally really enjoy my work. I worry a bit to figure out how to go back and get "caught up" since a lot of things don't really stop... Plus, it's not like we're tax exempt as we pay tax dollars too, so I guess we can all feel collectively the same that our tax dollars are going to pay some that are still getting their pay checks, like the ones on the Hill and the White House based to the 27th amendment .


----------



## badfish

papasin said:


> I'd be so much happier if I could go back to work. If you can get the federal government to un-furlough me and about 800,000 others, I'm sure we'd be more than happy to!


I know Richard


----------



## t3sn4f2

edit: posted in wrong thread


----------



## papasin

It's seemed forever now, but it was about two years ago that I got my hands on my first pair of Audible Physics drivers...namely, the XR Duo which included the XR3M-LE. To this day, those are some of my favorite 3s, with good weight at the lower midrange for a 3 that is hard to match.

Fast forward to this past year, and I've thoroughly enjoyed the Nz3-A/ATs. Been quite happy with the resolution at the midrange all the way to the top end.

Gosh, I've kept wondering what if I could have both those attributes combined, basically the best of both worlds .

Mark got a hold of me and I'm now using his new offering: the Melodic Acoustic Ascension 8.9AT Limited Edition. So here it is:










Compared to the Nz3:



















...a tight fit with the larger magnet, but was able to shoehorn them into my pillars:














































How do they sound? As I had desired, they have more weight in the lower midrange than the Nz3's did. Towards the top, they are actually a bit smoother, and with some EQ, I am able to get the same amount of sparkle as I had with the Nz3s. A very nice set of drivers and was great to be able to just drop them in .


----------



## bertholomey

Very cool-thank you for the description of the sound characteristics of each set of drivers. I can echo your feedback on the comparisons between the XR, NZ, and Ascension drivers. I have really been enjoying mine.

Also - very cool that they can drop in where the NZ's were mounted.


----------



## piyush7243

papasin said:


> It's seemed forever now, but it was about two years ago that I got my hands on my first pair of Audible Physics drivers...namely, the XR Duo which included the XR3M-LE. To this day, those are some of my favorite 3s, with good weight at the lower midrange for a 3 that is hard to match.
> 
> Fast forward to this past year, and I've thoroughly enjoyed the Nz3-A/ATs. Been quite happy with the resolution at the midrange all the way to the top end.
> 
> Gosh, I've kept wondering what if I could have both those attributes combined, basically the best of both worlds .
> 
> Mark got a hold of me and I'm now using his new offering: the Melodic Acoustic Ascension 8.9AT Limited Edition. So here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compared to the Nz3:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...a tight fit with the larger magnet, but was able to shoehorn them into my pillars:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do they sound? As I had desired, they have more weight in the lower midrange than the Nz3's did. Towards the top, they are actually a bit smoother, and with some EQ, I am able to get the same amount of sparkle as I had with the Nz3s. A very nice set of drivers and was great to be able to just drop them in .


Well these are AP RAM 3. Is Mark getting them from Rishi or he has some old stock left

Sent from my Find 5 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## papasin

piyush7243 said:


> Well these are AP RAM 3. Is Mark getting them from Rishi or he has some old stock left
> 
> Sent from my Find 5 using Tapatalk 2


I'll let Mark and/or Rishi answer that one.


----------



## Bluenote

And...they match the Subs...that counts for something


----------



## piyush7243

papasin said:


> I'll let Mark and/or Rishi answer that one.


I think I have the answer now 

Sent from my Find 5 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## papasin

What did I get myself into .


----------



## BigRed

thats what unemployed people do


----------



## JayinMI

What *are* you doing? lol

Jay


----------



## piyush7243

How do you find the sub?

Sent from my Find 5 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Rishi S

piyush7243 said:


> Well these are AP RAM 3. Is Mark getting them from Rishi or he has some old stock left
> 
> Sent from my Find 5 using Tapatalk 2


It is the Ram 3 Driver and Mark will be distributing these exclusively in the USA are under Melodic Acoustic.I have decided to support Melodic Acoustic / Mark create a new line of car audio drivers.More details will be provided by Mark.


----------



## papasin

I'm sure many know this already, but for those looking for a way to twist wires together, here's a little trick and all you need is a drill .


----------



## JayinMI

That was one of the best tricks I ever learned for wire organization. But since I'm trying to move on up, I had my GF braid me up some wire to get analog signal from my HU to the BitOne in the back. lol
But she's higher maintenance than a drill, so it's a trade off. lol

Jay


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> That was one of the best tricks I ever learned for wire organization. But since I'm trying to move on up, I had my GF braid me up some wire to get analog signal from my HU to the BitOne in the back. lol
> But she's higher maintenance than a drill, so it's a trade off. lol
> 
> Jay


I'll double check with the wife who's an expert at this stuff, but she and her mentor at NASA actually advises against braiding wires together for their rovers, twisting-yes, braiding-no. I'll see if I can get her on here to provide the theory on why...


----------



## t3sn4f2

Braids are less electrically symmetrical than the drill twist method. Which is the principal when trying to cancel out induced noise in a balanced wire run. And removing the shield lead from the twist or braid helps as well. Making it a true shield around the other two positive and negative conductors is best.


----------



## papasin

^ I'm looking for the thanks button, but consider the invisible one clicked.


----------



## t3sn4f2

papasin said:


> ^ I'm looking for the thanks button, but consider the invisible one clicked.


I've been yearning for that thanks button to come back as well.


----------



## MrsPapasin

t3sn4f2 said:


> Braids are less electrically symmetrical than the drill twist method. Which is the principal when trying to cancel out induced noise in a balanced wire run. And removing the shield lead from the twist or braid helps as well. Making it a true shield around the other two positive and negative conductors is best.


Great explanation! You want the twist to be consistent and in the same direction for proper noise cancellation. Anyway, when I started as an intern at NASA, my mentor told me to braid some wires together and I did like a girl! He laughed at me and told me that was wrong. I never did it that way ever again. Hah hah hah!


----------



## JayinMI

That's almost exactly the opposite to what I had heard before. I was told the idea was to have the positive and negative cross at an angle as close to 90 degrees as possible to cancel the electrical fields out. Typically it's easier to use a third conductor to get them to cross at the correct angle. IXOS RCA's (600 series) were like this, and I've heard this for years.

I probably shouldn't tell my GF about this then. lol

Jay


----------



## JayinMI

BTW, I got to hear the Melodic Acoustic drivers in Strakele's car and was EXTREMELY impressed. They may be in my eventual upgrade plans after new amps.


----------



## t3sn4f2

JayinMI said:


> That's almost exactly the opposite to what I had heard before. I was told the idea was to have the positive and negative cross at an angle as close to 90 degrees as possible to cancel the electrical fields out. Typically it's easier to use a third conductor to get them to cross at the correct angle. IXOS RCA's (600 series) were like this, and I've heard this for years.
> 
> I probably shouldn't tell my GF about this then. lol
> 
> Jay


The more conductors you have inter-weaved means the lower the cross angle. So naturally two not three (ie shield included and only possible way to make a "braid") is going to yield a nearer 90 degree crossing.

(Sorry for all the edits, long day.)


----------



## JayinMI

t3sn4f2 said:


> The more conductors you have inter-weaved means the lower the cross angle. So naturally two not three (ie shield included and only possible way to make a "braid") is going to yield a nearer 90 degree crossing.
> 
> (Sorry for all the edits, long day.)


Yeah, you'd think so, but when I've tried it it ends up being more like 60*. I added a third piece of wire and it came out very near 90*. I suppose it might depend on how tight the braid was. 

Although, it's all academic, because I doubt the way you twist/braid the wires carrying speaker level signals would make any audible difference.

Jay


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> BTW, I got to hear the Melodic Acoustic drivers in Strakele's car and was EXTREMELY impressed. They may be in my eventual upgrade plans after new amps.


I saw that in your thread. You were halfway to CA, you should have kept going and auditioned mine. :laugh:


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> What *are* you doing? lol
> 
> Jay


Finally gotten around to posting this, but what I've done (at least for now) probably isn't as drastic as what it initially looked. With most of the car ripped out, what I actually ended up doing was cleaning up a lot of the wiring that had accumulated over time, basically general house keeping and making one small, but significant (at least to me) update.

For example, I still had the extension mic cable and the display cable of the MS-8 running from the front to the back of the car, a bunch of RCA runs, etc. that I no longer was intending to use. Instead, I cleaned things up to just have the following going from the front to the back:

1. One AI-net cable
2. The RUX-C800 remote cable
3. Alpine KWE-610A cable
4. Remote turn-on
5. And kept 1 pair of RCA run from the front to the back (just in case)

In went an Alpine W910



















I know, I know, some of you that know me have been bugging me about this "upgrade" for a long time...saying things like: "why the heck don't you get rid of that OEM HU"? My response was that probably because I'm stubborn. :laugh:

One thing that I would have really missed is the steering wheel controls, but thanks to a PAC SWI-RC, I was able to map all 9 steering wheel buttons pretty much to whatever I wanted. 

Now, to be perfectly honest, I'm kicking myself for not doing this sooner. While the OEM HU didn't restrict the ability to get really good sound given how some of you have heard my car, especially as it is probably one of the better OEM HUs out there, with balanced output, etc., I cannot dismiss how I believe things are much better now. I'm not going to debate the general merits of optical vs. analog, but for my case, going from OEM HU with it's low-level balanced output to the H800 vs. the W910 via optical straight into the H800...to my ears has made a noticeable difference.

Go ahead, tell me "I told you so!"


----------



## badfish

Told you so!!  Looks good Richard
John


----------



## Justin Zazzi

but but but.... I thought you had the best OEM head unit ever made?


I find it hard to imagine any noticeable improvement over what you had previously, it was pretty amazing the last time I remember it!


----------



## papasin

Jazzi said:


> but but but.... I thought you had the best OEM head unit ever made?
> 
> 
> I find it hard to imagine any noticeable improvement over what you had previously, it was pretty amazing the last time I remember it!


Haha, yeah, you said that too lol. I mean for what it was, with the backup camera resolution (I think a couple of you were relatively impressed), it was pretty darn good. Swing on by and take a listen . Oh wait, Chico isn't as close anymore lol.


----------



## wdemetrius1

Congratulations on the upgrade.


----------



## papasin

While I was at it, I scoured around for an Alpine CD changer, but not just any of the Alpine changers, but one with an optical output. I was fortunate to find one on eBay from a guy who didn't label the model accurately and ended up paying less than $30 shipped. Normally, I think these go for a bit more. 

Alpine CHA-S624 went under the driver's seat.





































Happy Halloween everyone!


----------



## Golden Ear

Happy Holloween buddy! Glad we got to meet up on Tuesday. The headunit looks perfect in the car. It sounds very good and plays VERY loud very cleanly. I'm jealous I can't play mine so loud. Guess I'm gonna have to get an H800 and an A-Class


----------



## Sound Suggestions

Where's the Diyma "like" button when you need one!


----------



## bertholomey

Love the costumes!!!!!!!


----------



## papasin

Just want to wish a Merry SQ Christmas to everyone and may the New Year bring more SQ bliss to all!


----------



## bertholomey

Very Beautiful Family!!!!

Merry Christmas!


----------



## DonH

Merry Christmas! great looking family!


----------



## rdubbs

Merry Christmas!


----------



## captainobvious

A merry Christmas to you and your family as well Richard!


----------



## Golden Ear

Merry Christmas and Happy SQ Year! The pics of the fam look great Richard & Linda!


----------



## Rishi S

Very nice family photo


----------



## papasin

Thanks everyone for the Christmas wishes and hope everyone had a good one as well.

Couple minor updates. I mentioned this in the SoCal gtg thread, but also wanted to mention it here. Since we've been going to more and more GTG, wanted to have a good way of charging so picked this up.










I cut off the eyelets and wired it directly with the included 15A fuse to my battery terminals.



















Note that this is not a full blown power supply. It's also not the fastest charger, but in our experience, does a better job than others. Currently less than $90 from Amazon, Prime too. 

CTEK Multi US 7002 12V Battery Charger : Amazon.com : Automotive

Also got a new shift knob as a Xmas present.


----------



## mitchjr

I love that shift knob, I want a 5speed one. Do you you know where u got it?


----------



## papasin

mitchjr said:


> I love that shift knob, I want a 5speed one. Do you you know where u got it?



Sister got it for me as a Xmas present. Believe she ordered it from Amazon. The link below I believe.

http://www.amazon.com/GENUINE-TYPE-...=1388245745&sr=8-16&keywords=Honda+shift+knob


----------



## papasin

I really like this.






Saw the original on JT's Facebook page. Definitely looks like another JT work of art! 

http://www.facebook.com/jtaudioacc


----------



## cobb2819

papasin said:


> I really like this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saw the original on JT's Facebook page. Definitely looks like another JT work of art!
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/jtaudioacc


I really like this too!!!


----------



## casey

looks great Richard! I almost went that route. Glad I didnt now, cant copy everything you do right


----------



## captainobvious

Very niiiiice. Still like yours better, but definitely nice work there.


----------



## casey

haha I am thinking it is Richards, Steve. Dash mat and the habi red paint


----------



## jtaudioacc

*Re: Wideband Audible Physics XR Duo front-stage upgrade*



papasin said:


> Here's a wide-angle shot of the current and hopefully final (knock on wood) front-stage.













^^^ Maybe this is finally it? ^^^ lol


----------



## bertholomey

I love the way these pillars look!


----------



## rdubbs

I've been wondering what kind of updates you had been hinting at  Figured it was this but it's far more beautiful than I could have imagined.


----------



## papasin

captainobvious said:


> Very niiiiice. Still like yours better, but definitely nice work there.





casey said:


> haha I am thinking it is Richards, Steve. Dash mat and the habi red paint


Funny...technically, they are both mine, so glad you like them both Steve. And Casey, not habi red (that's 2006-2008 model). Redline orange pearl that was a limited run for 2009-2010.


----------



## papasin

*Re: Wideband Audible Physics XR Duo front-stage upgrade*



jtaudioacc said:


> ^^^ Maybe this is finally it? ^^^ lol


I've learned to never say finally at this point. There's always the 5s. :laugh:


----------



## cobb2819

*Re: Wideband Audible Physics XR Duo front-stage upgrade*



papasin said:


> I've learned to never say finally at this point. There's always the 5s. :laugh:


You mean the Carbon 8" in the kicks right?!?


----------



## Tsmith

Really nice! I love the way the pillars look also.


----------



## james2266

Richard, another member posted about wanting to know which front end you liked best basically comparing the new Illusion and the many diff. AP drivers you have ran in there. I would like to know too and probably others would be interested too. 

PM incoming too


----------



## brett

as instructed, i was going to ask the same thing but was beat to the punch. and yes, very curious about your impressions, please

and/or, jt's as well; he probably at least listened to them i would imagine


----------



## papasin

Will post something tonight or tomorrow as I said in the other thread. Taking MrsPapasin out to a live concert. One thing I wholeheartedly recommend to SQ enthusiasts...live performances. As good as we might be able to make a car, and then possibly a home studio, then listening in a recording studio, a live performance is one of the best (if not the best) form of reference.


----------



## james2266

papasin said:


> Will post something tonight or tomorrow as I said in the other thread. Taking MrsPapasin out to a live concert. One thing I wholeheartedly recommend to SQ enthusiasts...live performances. As good as we might be able to make a car, and then possibly a home studio, then listening in a recording studio, a live performance is one of the best (if not the best) form of reference.


Very well said and I couldn't agree with you more.


----------



## shutmdown

may i ask where did you get that battery tie down? Looks like an adjustable piece if im not mistaken.


----------



## Babs

Wow Papasin you've really kept the enthusiasm. Good for you. A far cry from first doing the Si initial install. I don't mess around in the forums much but glad to see how you've progressed with your civic. 

I agree on the coaxials. The big a-pillars do call for a good quality coax driver don't they? Thought about it often. Something small enough to integrate well in a custom pillar and good enough for a solid clean front stage. Not too many such high end 3" two-ways out there. Wish SEAS made one that small maybe. Not familiar at all with illusion but those do look lovely.


----------



## papasin

shutmdown said:


> may i ask where did you get that battery tie down? Looks like an adjustable piece if im not mistaken.


Yes, it's adjustable. IIRC, got it at a local Autozone. Less than $10.


----------



## papasin

brett said:


> as instructed, i was going to ask the same thing but was beat to the punch. and yes, very curious about your impressions, please
> 
> and/or, jt's as well; he probably at least listened to them i would imagine





james2266 said:


> Richard, another member posted about wanting to know which front end you liked best basically comparing the new Illusion and the many diff. AP drivers you have ran in there. I would like to know too and probably others would be interested too.


Come to think of it, this car has gone through 7 different front stage combos.

1. Starting from the hand me down Infinity Kappa front stage (which for what it was, surprisingly ok with processing).
2. ID XS-65
3. AP XR3/XR6.5
4. AP Nz3/Arians
5. AP Nz3/JLZR800-CW
6. AP RAM3/JLZR800-CW
7. Illusion C4CX/JLZR800-CW

Let me discuss 4-6 a little, and reserve 7 until the car comes back from its first comp. With other competitors and judges who peruse this build thread, I'll comment more on the thought process and how it sounds at a later date.

But let's focus on the question of the Nz3 and the RAM and how they performed in *MY* car. As many of you know, install and tuning are going to play a very big part of how these drivers sound in everyone's vehicle. I was very fortunate to have a masterful JT install and expert tuning help from BigRed...something I am not shy to share. With their talents, I believe the most out of these drivers were able to be brought out, and I would summarize them as such:

1. The Nz3 (not counting the C4CX yet) gave *MY* car the most detailed midrange AND top-end, and that's including the incarnations with tweeters. For *MY* car including the other combos used, the Nz3 was not at all lacking sparkle, and often times, I actually found cars with real tweeters more laid back than these drivers with the prevalent tune I ran. It was nice and airy. Piano passages were very "real" (IIRC JT commented on that as well in a fairly early BigRed tune even for Combo 4), and it just got better and better. Strings, vocals, were very detailed. Swapping to the JL mid basses just anchored the entire front stage even more. The one drawback on the Nz3s that I highlighted in the comparison testing we did against other AP drivers is the lower midrange could be a little better (see here - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2012059-post183.html). But there are ways around that like raising the mid bass crossover points or adjusting EQ a bit. Many others have heard my car with these drivers as I used them predominantly in 2013 that weren't disappointed .

2. I don't have as much run-time with the RAMs, but my quick assessment are that out of the box, they are smoother than the Nz3s. They have the edge over the Nz3s on the lower midrange. The tradeoff is a bit less top-end, but with EQ, that was able to be compensated. IMO, these are the culmination of AP's best of both...that is, taking the lower midrange strengths that the AP XR3 had, and combining them with the AP Nz3...a very very solid all-around driver.

Hope that helps.


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

Who was singing in that YouTube video? Awesome build!


----------



## JayinMI

I had to watch the video to see, also. 

Eva Cassidy. You can read the screen right at the beginning.

Jay


----------



## rockytophigh

Whew....just finished all 20 pages! Incredible progression from start to....well, I would say finish but it doesn't look like there's a finish lol. I will say this, you apparently married the coolest girl in the world. Beautiful family, beautiful install....and I'd be proud to meet you at Freezefest. Hope I get the chance.


----------



## papasin

rockytophigh said:


> Whew....just finished all 20 pages! Incredible progression from start to....well, I would say finish but it doesn't look like there's a finish lol. I will say this, you apparently married the coolest girl in the world. Beautiful family, beautiful install....and I'd be proud to meet you at Freezefest. Hope I get the chance.


This build has definitely taught me quite a bit about this hobby. I just looked back at the first few pages and makes me wonder what I was thinking.  :laugh: But in hindsight, I'm glad it's there as a reminder that we all have to start somewhere, and while I would do things differently now that I know what I know, I also realize there's still a lot I don't know and am very appreciative of continued opportunities of things I can learn.

Yes, MrsPapasin is awesome.  Thank you for the kind words as well about my family. I count my blessings everyday.

All our arrangements are made (again, thanks to the awesome MrsPapasin) and we indeed intend to be at Freezefest. I look forward to meeting you too.


----------



## DLO13

I had the awesome opportunity to hear the car today....

Let me just say that Ignorance is Bliss, because having never heard something like this before, I was kind of happy with what I thought good sound quality was...

The imaging is ridiculous. It almost hurts your head to look at a speaker and have the sound coming from somewhere else. My mind was saying "Record a video and show people this", but obviously my mind is crazy, because that isn't possible.

Oh, and Richard, thanks again for taking the time on father's day to show me!


----------



## papasin

DLO13 said:


> I had the awesome opportunity to hear the car today....
> 
> Let me just say that Ignorance is Bliss, because having never heard something like this before, I was kind of happy with what I thought good sound quality was...
> 
> The imaging is ridiculous. It almost hurts your head to look at a speaker and have the sound coming from somewhere else. My mind was saying "Record a video and show people this", but obviously my mind is crazy, because that isn't possible.
> 
> Oh, and Richard, thanks again for taking the time on father's day to show me!



Glad you liked it. It's improved a bit since others last heard it, so I am glad you approve. Hope the blind judge agrees in Huntington Beach.


----------



## james2266

papasin said:


> Glad you liked it. It's improved a bit since others last heard it, so I am glad you approve. Hope the blind judge agrees in Huntington Beach.


I wonder what you could have done on the tuning to make it better? The imaging was amazing when I heard it. I also would like to change what I said before now that I have had more time to learn the frequency spectrum better with my own vehicle. I did not think your vehicle was a little bright in the treble like I once told you earlier and I really truly hope you were not offended by that. The issue I had was in the midrange around 1.2-2.5 kHz or so. Maybe my ears are just overly sensitive in this range too. I know I have a ***** of a time with this range in my vehicle anyways and when it is too hot it sounds like nails on a chalkboard to me. Yours was just barely noticeably irritating to my virgin ears:blush:


----------



## papasin

james2266 said:


> I wonder what you could have done on the tuning to make it better? The imaging was amazing when I heard it. I also would like to change what I said before now that I have had more time to learn the frequency spectrum better with my own vehicle. I did not think your vehicle was a little bright in the treble like I once told you earlier and I really truly hope you were not offended by that. The issue I had was in the midrange around 1.2-2.5 kHz or so. Maybe my ears are just overly sensitive in this range too. I know I have a ***** of a time with this range in my vehicle anyways and when it is too hot it sounds like nails on a chalkboard to me. Yours was just barely noticeably irritating to my virgin ears:blush:



When you heard my vehicle, IMHO, it was the opposite of bright. A few others noticed it also and considered it a bit laid back...but not in a way that it lacked detail. That was a function of the way I had things set up. I will elaborate as I get more run time, but let's just say the laid back nature was more so to do with how I had things configured and now have a bit more flexibility. And as always, many thanks to BigRed for his ears and magic touch on the tune.


----------



## james2266

papasin said:


> When you heard my vehicle, IMHO, it was the opposite of bright. A few others noticed it also and considered it a bit laid back...but not in a way that it lacked detail. That was a function of the way I had things set up. I will elaborate as I get more run time, but let's just say the laid back nature was more so to do with how I had things configured and now have a bit more flexibility. And as always, many thanks to BigRed for his ears and magic touch on the tune.


Interesting. I just wish I had a 'Big Red' up here at my disposal. I do feel quite lost at times. I am trying a different way of tuning now; or rather different order. I am trying not to touch the eq at all and get it as good as I can with just using, crossovers, levels and ta currently. It is still early as I have only about 1 hour into it. I will say those AP drivers are impressive; even more than I originally thought. With a pretty large crossover adjustment, I have them completely flat from 350 Hz up to 5 kHz and I have used zero eq. I killed that giant peak centered about 500 Hz by moving the crossover from 315 to 560 Hz (if memory serves). I was shocked that it totally flattened that peak and still played like the cross was at 315 Hz or so. I have 'subwoofery' to thank for that suggestion even if it was a couple years ago I got it. Sometimes I am a little dense I guess. :laugh:


----------



## papasin

^ that is awesome James! Yes, electronic vs acoustic...very important. Glad Kelvin was able to help you out.


----------



## sirbOOm

Since you're doing front stage changes often, I encourage you to try these. They sound awesome. Building speakers in cigar boxes with them but I did throw them in my truck to see how they'd sound... I wish I could fit them without obstructive fiberglass pillars! Might do it later on. 

New Vifa 3 5" Speakers M K Miller Kreisel MP6 Coaxial MK Full Range Monitor 8ohm | eBay


----------



## papasin

sirbOOm said:


> Since you're doing front stage changes often, I encourage you to try these. They sound awesome. Building speakers in cigar boxes with them but I did throw them in my truck to see how they'd sound... I wish I could fit them without obstructive fiberglass pillars! Might do it later on.
> 
> New Vifa 3 5" Speakers M K Miller Kreisel MP6 Coaxial MK Full Range Monitor 8ohm | eBay



Lol. No front stage change...yet.


----------



## DLO13




----------



## subwoofery

james2266 said:


> Interesting. I just wish I had a 'Big Red' up here at my disposal. I do feel quite lost at times. I am trying a different way of tuning now; or rather different order. I am trying not to touch the eq at all and get it as good as I can with just using, crossovers, levels and ta currently. It is still early as I have only about 1 hour into it. I will say those AP drivers are impressive; even more than I originally thought. With a pretty large crossover adjustment, I have them completely flat from 350 Hz up to 5 kHz and I have used zero eq. I killed that giant peak centered about 500 Hz by moving the crossover from 315 to 560 Hz (if memory serves). I was shocked that it totally flattened that peak and still played like the cross was at 315 Hz or so. I have 'subwoofery' to thank for that suggestion even if it was a couple years ago I got it. Sometimes I am a little dense I guess. :laugh:


Thanks but I'm only spreading what I learned on the forum  

It's hard to help someone tune over the internet though. I don't feel that I have golden ears (far from it) but I've trained my listenning skills by playing the "which freq is this?" 

Make a CD with test tones (80Hz on up) and play it on your system (desktop speakers are fine too). 
First try to guess if it's below 1kHz, between 1kHz and 5kHz or above 5kHz 
Then try to guess if it's between 80Hz and 320Hz, 320Hz and 1.25kHz, 1.25kHz and 4kHz, 4kHz and 8kHz or 8kHz to 20kHz 
When your skills get really better, try to guess which tone that is. 

Not really a fun game but it does help with tuning especially when you listen to a song. 

Have fun, 
Kelvin


----------



## MrsPapasin

subwoofery said:


> Thanks but I'm only spreading what I learned on the forum
> 
> It's hard to help someone tune over the internet though. I don't feel that I have golden ears (far from it) but I've trained my listenning skills by playing the "which freq is this?"
> 
> Make a CD with test tones (80Hz on up) and play it on your system (desktop speakers are fine too).
> First try to guess if it's below 1kHz, between 1kHz and 5kHz or above 5kHz
> Then try to guess if it's between 80Hz and 320Hz, 320Hz and 1.25kHz, 1.25kHz and 4kHz, 4kHz and 8kHz or 8kHz to 20kHz
> When your skills get really better, try to guess which tone that is.
> 
> Not really a fun game but it does help with tuning especially when you listen to a song.
> 
> Have fun,
> Kelvin




Actually I find that to be a fun game.  I play the Quiztones app on my iphone. You can play in three different modes: tones - test your knowledge of fundamental frequencies, EQ - identify frequencies being changed from source material, and Gain - identify the change in gain from source material. It's set up to be like a game where it quizzes you on each and you get a score.


----------



## [email protected]

MrsPapasin said:


> Actually I find that to be a fun game.  I play the Quiztones app on my iphone. You can play in three different modes: tones - test your knowledge of fundamental frequencies, EQ - identify frequencies being changed from source material, and Gain - identify the change in gain from source material. It's set up to be like a game where it quizzes you on each and you get a score.


Cool app, I am checking it out now! Thanks! I had frequency identification training in a little different way.. In other times I was a sound engineer one summer for an indie tour. We did about 100 shows that summer. Some days it was from 10am to 10pm. I ran the board for each show, all day. We were in a wide range of venues so I got to experience every range of feedback possible (it seemed). Feedback is frequency dependent, so if you can pick out the frequency that is hot and eq it down, the feedback will go away. Doing it on the fly during an event is super fun! hahaa...


----------



## [email protected]

So, does my hearing drop off at 15.5k or does my iphone/headphones? 

16k in the game is easy. When I hear nothing, its that! hahha.


----------



## MrsPapasin

[email protected] said:


> So, does my hearing drop off at 15.5k or does my iphone/headphones?
> 
> 16k in the game is easy. When I hear nothing, its that! hahha.



Lol, glad you're having fun, Joey. I can hear 16k even with the iphone headphones but you're right that one is easy to identify.


----------



## james2266

Thanks so much Linda. I know what I will be looking for when I get home. I only hope that it has been made for Android as well. Well... I guess I could grab my old iphone 4 and get the app that way if needed too. Sounds like a great app to play around with. I think I am pretty good at knowing what frequency is which when we are talking test tones but I have difficulty with picking out the trouble frequency in music and also have issues figuring out which tone has more gain. I think this one might really help in that. I just hope I can find my headphones for my iphone still


----------



## BigRed

Another app for in the car when playing real music is equ. Basically u can play a song, and if u hear a frequency that is bothering u, U can adjust the eq sliders with your fingers to figure it out. Really helpful when tuning


----------



## ErinH

I was going to jump in and say that I'm really excited to see how Richard has progressed over the years. I remember when he started out, he pinged me on a lot of things because we have the same car and I think he was just trying to save himself the headaches I went through with mine. Now he and Linda are doing well on the competition scene and are active members in MECA as judges as well. Cool to see the progression.


As for apps, there's a free Denon app that has a lot of EQ features in it. That one is cool to play around with and see how EQ changes affect the sound.


----------



## subwoofery

MrsPapasin said:


> Actually I find that to be a fun game.  I play the Quiztones app on my iphone. You can play in three different modes: tones - test your knowledge of fundamental frequencies, EQ - identify frequencies being changed from source material, and Gain - identify the change in gain from source material. It's set up to be like a game where it quizzes you on each and you get a score.


Anything for android users?  

Kelvin


----------



## MrsPapasin

James and Kelvin, you're in luck. They have Quiztones for Android too!  Jim's suggestion for EQu is really cool too. I like that app too. Erin, thanks for the compliments and for Denon app. Gonna go check that one out.


----------



## rton20s

Time to download some more apps!


----------



## sqgodz

Wow. Great build. You have almost convinced me to build some pillars for my fusion. 

Great work. I wish I could hear it some time.


----------



## papasin

sqgodz said:


> Wow. Great build. You have almost convinced me to build some pillars for my fusion.
> 
> Great work. I wish I could hear it some time.



Thanks, but the pillar fabrication credit goes to jtaudioacc as that is way beyond my skillset. If you are ever in the area, you are more than welcome. Good luck with your fusion.


----------



## papasin

Nothing has changed with the setup. But MrsPapasin's pics encouraged me to take a few of my own, so yesterday I took out the DSLR and snapped a few. 
































































I've been quite happy with everything. Thanks again to jtaudioacc for the fantastic fabrication, and to BigRed for helping with the tune.


----------



## DLO13

my favorite sounding car. Too bad the owner is a jerk


----------



## papasin

^ care to elaborate? If trying to help and be constructive translates to being a jerk, then I guess...but not sure how many would want to be called that on their build thread without an explanation on an open forum. Thanks for the compliments on the car though and glad you like it.


----------



## BigRed

I think dlo was being funny and using antonyms to describe u


----------



## papasin

^ hope so. But then does he hate the tune on the Civic?


----------



## ErinH

He put a  at the end. So he's clearly kidding. Come on, Richard, get with the emoticon!

Edit:


----------



## cobb2819

DLO13 said:


> Too bad the owner is a jerk


Truer words have never been spoken!!!


----------



## bertholomey

This is becoming a Roasting


----------



## edouble101

The pillars look fantastic!


----------



## DLO13

Oopsie. I'll have to use a better sarcastic font next time. 
To clarify... The owner is one of the kindest, most encouraging and helpful people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing. We'll crap. Now I feel bad

my reaction when I read that sarcasm was missed


----------



## Golden Ear

DLO13 said:


> The owner is one of the kindest, most encouraging and helpful people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing.


Truer words have never been spoken!! 

I caught the sarcasm and I'm surprised you didn't, Richard. I can't imagine anyone having any kind of ill feelings towards ya! Or the car


----------



## MrsPapasin

quality_sound said:


> Ya got me! Ya gotta use those smileys!!!


I was taught by the ribbing experts, Dr. Paul, Dr. Jay, and ErinH (the SQ enthusiast formerly known as bikinpunk) that generous usage of smileys and emoticons are very important for ribbing. It is sage and wise advice. Lol!!! :laugh::lol::rockon::drummer::idea3:


----------



## papasin

Point taken guys and girl that have replied, and I actually did get the sarcasm from the post that started all this...but I'm gonna get on a soap box...so indulge me. 

Everyone should take a half step back. I know and realize many on here "do know me", but think for half a second for everyone else who might not, has never met me in person, etc. Not saying that there was any mal-intent on DLO's post and I never read it as such (as some of you may have been thinking). But to leave it that way without me responding at all, emoticon or not to get further clarification, would have been IMO a bit of a mistake.

Just a couple weeks ago, someone on this forum said: "When dealing with the internet and forums, perception is reality."

And to follow upon that quote, I read a good article recently:

Perception is reality in the Internet age | Reputation.com

I have no issues or concern with people joking around. Heck, I don't even care if people call me a jerk if it's warranted. I'm a big boy and I manage over 50 engineers on a daily basis and have been called worse.  The thing I care about is if I did do something that warrants it or any other less than flattering term, I would gladly accept the comment and learn from it to find out what and how I can improve upon myself.

I don't pretend to be an expert at any of this car audio stuff. Heck, if I can contribute 1% back from 99% of what I've learned from many more much knowledgeable, I'd be a happy guy. Ok, off my soap box.


----------



## Babs

MrsPapasin said:


> ..the SQ enthusiast formerly known as bikinpunk



She wore a Raaaaasberry Beret....
Prince reference there. 

C'mon!  Even I got that sarcasm. I've talked to you enough to know it hadda be sarcastic. hehehehehehe

I dislike that your car is on the other side of the continent from my ears. Not much chance of emailing how it sounds over here.


----------



## plcrides

i talked to the guy and i thought he was a real class act…..hmmmm well i guess he's okay.kidding he's a good dude.hey is that a orange pearl or orange peel?


----------



## HardCoreDore

I think it's called orange pearl metallic, if I'm not mistaken. I drive an '07 Fiji blue pearl coupe myself. 

I find the coupe a somewhat daunting car achieve good sound in. I never really thought about using that extra bit of "windshield" in a sedan as a place to mount speakers. Fantastic idea! 

I do wonder about blind spots though. I've noticed my coupe has a blind spot on both a pillars. It's not very big obviously, but large enough to hide someone standing in front of the car. I've almost hit someone before in a parking lot. Sacred me to death. 

Doesn't this mod increase the blind spot somewhat, or is this not an issue in the sedan?


----------



## papasin

Redline Orange Pearl (abbreviated as ROP in 8thcivic) is the actual paint code and was only available in SI trim in model years 2009-2010. It was slightly different (Habanero Red) for 2006-2008 and the color was discontinued in 2011 IIRC.

I never found those side windows helpful or hurtful wrt blindspots...at least in my seating position, I have no noticeable issues reducing what I see. I've had several 3s up there in two different configs, and now a set of 4s up there in this most recent one. ErinH may have been one of the first to utilize them in his 06 8th sedan and he has a set of 5s in his.

EDIT: I found a discussion on the window in my thread sometime back and ErinH commenting on his also.



ErinH said:


> As long as I've had pods I've never missed the window or had issues seeing out. We sedan owners got lucky!


----------



## HardCoreDore

Isn't it sad how bad 8thcivic is now compared to when it first started? I met the original owner at one of the dragon meets, and prior to him selling it, it was more like a family than a forum. I rarely go over there anymore.


----------



## Babs

HardCoreDore said:


> Isn't it sad how bad 8thcivic is now compared to when it first started? I met the original owner at one of the dragon meets, and prior to him selling it, it was more like a family than a forum. I rarely go over there anymore.


I've not noticed but yeah it seems the site isn't what it used to be for sure. I guess I kinda expected that as the car went bye bye, folks sold and bought them and they all started getting some age on them. The new wore off I guess. Mine's pushing 80ish k miles I think, last I checked, and paint chips and scratches, and needs new stuff (shocks, etc) But I love her. 




papasin said:


> I never found those side windows helpful or hurtful wrt blindspots...at least in my seating position, I have no noticeable issues reducing what I see.


I find the pillar itself can be a blind spot, rather than the little window potentially. On tight curvy's I find myself doing the head bob to see around the A-pillar itself, but hardly ever look through the little windows. The blind spot is the upper section of the pillar itself. 

I suspect 'WHEN' I get mine done, I won't miss the tiny windows. I only hope to not obstruct into the dash too much. Papasin, judging by yours here, even with the Illusion mid/tweets, it doesn't appear to get infront of your vision through the windshield.


----------



## casey

HardCoreDore said:


> Isn't it sad how bad 8thcivic is now compared to when it first started? I met the original owner at one of the dragon meets, and prior to him selling it, it was more like a family than a forum. I rarely go over there anymore.


pretty much every honda site unfortunately :/

ive been on 8th gen a couple years and notice that since the cars are older they are usually on their 2nd, 3rd, 4th++ owners which are generally younger. It happens. Been on honda-tech.com since 01 and the same trend there as well. 

I dont attend import alliance any more (saw that youre from nashville). Last one I really enjoyed was the last summer one in nashville in 2011.

On topic:

I have no loss of visibility on mine either with pods. The stock pillar itself is the blindspot for me as well.


----------



## ErinH

HardCoreDore said:


> Isn't it sad how bad 8thcivic is now compared to when it first started? I met the original owner at one of the dragon meets, and prior to him selling it, it was more like a family than a forum. I rarely go over there anymore.



OT: I see you're in Nashville; I'm in Decatur, AL. About 2 hours from you. I don't know if you are aware, but there's a pretty big car audio comp this weekend in Lebanon. Spectators are always welcome and it's a great chance to meet some of the folks here from around your area. More info is here:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...nny-july-13-2014-meca-3x-show-lebanon-tn.html

If you decide to come out track me down and I'd be happy to let you demo my setup.


----------



## papasin

It feels like an 8th reunion in here, nice! 

You all have different screennames on 8th though, but I think I know them . I agree with pretty much what has been said about 8th. The car is now a bit older, and a lot of the guys on there, especially in the ICE section, ask to find what they should run for a $300 budget SQ build. Not to say that there is anything wrong with a low budget build, but it's gonna be tough to get even a decent build done when you factor in some key components like sound deadening, wires, etc.

There are a couple good tutorials on there that I have found very helpful for this car that I would be negligent to not mention, and believe have done so on this build thread. Things like getting a group 34 in this car vs. the OEM 51R, running the power wire from the front to the back, how to take all the panels off, and even interfacing the OEM handsfree controls in a navi equipped car with Bluetooth and mapping them to specific functions to my W910 was all very easily found on 8th and were things I would have had to start from scratch but glad others paved the way and appreciative of 8th for being relatively organized. 

My biggest gripe though is when they dropped Tapatalk support, and only carried that onto 9thCivic.


----------



## papasin

Babs said:


> Papasin, judging by yours here, even with the Illusion mid/tweets, it doesn't appear to get infront of your vision through the windshield.


Correct sir. Very little protrudes from the OEM pillar surface onto the dash. I don't know too much about the EMMA rules, but I bet with the "paper test" that they use in front of the windshield glass, it would be pretty minimal.

I think even Erin's KEF's aren't much also. I sat it in it once, but didn't really measure the distance but IIRC was not bad at all. As he indicated in the quote previously, "we sedan owners got lucky".

My mom has the 9th gen sedan, and after looking at her OEM pillars, they now stick a tweeter where we have those little windows, so even the designers realized those windows aren't doing much good and are better served for putting a speaker directly on it.


----------



## Babs

papasin said:


> It feels like an 8th reunion in here, nice!


Careful or we'll start talking Injen CAI's or springs, turbo kits, cat-backs, HID's and hondata reflashes. 



papasin said:


> There are a couple good tutorials on there that I have found very helpful for this car that I would be negligent to not mention, and believe have done so on this build thread. Things like getting a group 34 in this car vs. the OEM 51R, running the power wire from the front to the back, how to take all the panels off, and even interfacing the OEM handsfree controls in a navi equipped car with Bluetooth and mapping them to specific functions to my W910 was all very easily found on 8th and were things I would have had to start from scratch but glad others paved the way and appreciative of 8th for being relatively organized.


Absolutely!!! I couldn't agree more. Showing my ignorance, it's the first place I ever heard the term "Big Three" and it's value, or how to do it and why to do it. But you and Erin and a bunch before really paved the way with a truck load of 8th Civ specifics that ya can't put a price on. And can we all have a round of applause to Mercman!! That harness rocks. I'm keeping it to sell with the car unless I do what you recommended and put the 80PRS in the Tacoma. 



papasin said:


> My biggest gripe though is when they dropped Tapatalk support, and only carried that onto 9thCivic.


Go get AutoGuide.com Free app. It's there. A tapatalk variant. Works nice.


----------



## Babs

papasin said:


> I think even Erin's KEF's aren't much also. I sat it in it once, but didn't really measure the distance but IIRC was not bad at all. As he indicated in the quote above, "we sedan owners got lucky".


Yes, though 'some assembly required'.


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> It feels like an 8th reunion in here, nice!
> 
> You all have different screennames on 8th though, but I think I know them . I agree with pretty much what has been said about 8th. The car is now a bit older, and a lot of the guys on there, especially in the ICE section, ask to find what they should run for a $300 budget SQ build. Not to say that there is anything wrong with a low budget build, but it's gonna be tough to get even a decent build done when you factor in some key components like sound deadening, wires, etc.
> 
> There are a couple good tutorials on there that I have found very helpful for this car that I would be negligent to not mention, and believe have done so on this build thread. Things like getting a group 34 in this car vs. the OEM 51R, running the power wire from the front to the back, how to take all the panels off, and even interfacing the OEM handsfree controls in a navi equipped car with Bluetooth and mapping them to specific functions to my W910 was all very easily found on 8th and were things I would have had to start from scratch but glad others paved the way and appreciative of 8th for being relatively organized.
> 
> My biggest gripe though is when they dropped Tapatalk support, and only carried that onto 9thCivic.


Your 8th Gen Civic site sounds very much like ClubxB these days. It used to be all you could do to keep up with the posting. Now, not so much. And we get the same exact questions about $300 builds. Along with endless links to local CL ads asking if the beat to death subwoofers and enclosure are any good. 

And then there is Scionlife. That place is an absolute ghost town.


----------



## Babs

rton20s said:


> ..the same exact questions about $300 builds. Along with endless links to local CL ads asking if the beat to death subwoofers and enclosure are any good.


Yeah you have to get pretty handy with the search tool, but once I find it, I've started bookmarking like mad in browser for future reference for those few threads of awesomeness and wisdom among the masses. And they're spread in DIY sections, tech sections and ICE, so you have to be patient with searches.


----------



## HardCoreDore

papasin said:


> It feels like an 8th reunion in here, nice!
> 
> You all have different screennames on 8th though, but I think I know them . I agree with pretty much what has been said about 8th. The car is now a bit older, and a lot of the guys on there, especially in the ICE section, ask to find what they should run for a $300 budget SQ build. Not to say that there is anything wrong with a low budget build, but it's gonna be tough to get even a decent build done when you factor in some key components like sound deadening, wires, etc.
> 
> There are a couple good tutorials on there that I have found very helpful for this car that I would be negligent to not mention, and believe have done so on this build thread. Things like getting a group 34 in this car vs. the OEM 51R, running the power wire from the front to the back, how to take all the panels off, and even interfacing the OEM handsfree controls in a navi equipped car with Bluetooth and mapping them to specific functions to my W910 was all very easily found on 8th and were things I would have had to start from scratch but glad others paved the way and appreciative of 8th for being relatively organized.
> 
> My biggest gripe though is when they dropped Tapatalk support, and only carried that onto 9thCivic.


I sure wish I had read this post a few hours ago. I just laid out $100 for another 51r battery. It's the third one in 7 years (including stock). To add insult to injury, the yellow top duralast I took out had only been out of replacement warranty for a month. 

It's awfully convenient that the thing craps out right after they'd have to replace it. They were going to give me a whopping $30 prorated. I told them to stick it and bought a cheap exide battery instead. 

So a group 34 will fit? What are the advantages?


----------



## HardCoreDore

I forgot to mention, my username over at 8th is hiphopaddict. 

Did any of you meet, or remember the original site owner? I don't remember his name, but he was a super cool guy. He drove a fit. He also had leukemia I think.
I've always wondered if dude made it or not. He had a bald head from chemo the last time I saw him.


----------



## papasin

Babs said:


> Go get AutoGuide.com Free app. It's there. A tapatalk variant. Works nice.


Yeah, I've had it since 8th dropped Tapatalk support. The annoying part is I used to not need it and now need two separate forum apps. All the forums I care about were all available via Tapatalk.


----------



## papasin

HardCoreDore said:


> I sure wish I had read this post a few hours ago. I just laid out $100 for another 51r battery. It's the third one in 7 years (including stock). To add insult to injury, the yellow top duralast I took out had only been out of replacement warranty for a month.
> 
> It's awfully convenient that the thing craps out right after they'd have to replace it. They were going to give me a whopping $30 prorated. I told them to stick it and bought a cheap exide battery instead.
> 
> So a group 34 will fit? What are the advantages?


Flashback... 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...sedan-redline-orange-pearl-9.html#post1759136

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...edan-redline-orange-pearl-10.html#post1778392

DIY: Upgrade Your Battery.....By:07mugencivic (no56k) - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum

Group 34 will give you more capacity vs. 51R.


----------



## JayinMI

casey said:


> pretty much every honda site unfortunately :/
> 
> ive been on 8th gen a couple years and notice that since the cars are older they are usually on their 2nd, 3rd, 4th++ owners which are generally younger. It happens.


It's not just Honda sites. The Neon site I was very active on has gone by the way side...same thing happened. People had the cars for years, sold them or gave them to the kids and then you just end up with a forum full of idiot kids who can't use the search function and all the most useful members left. Most of the active group on Detroit Neon Owners from my era all drive more "grown up" cars now. lol

Jay


----------



## HardCoreDore

JayinMI said:


> It's not just Honda sites. The Neon site I was very active on has gone by the way side...same thing happened. People had the cars for years, sold them or gave them to the kids and then you just end up with a forum full of idiot kids who can't use the search function and all the most useful members left. Most of the active group on Detroit Neon Owners from my era all drive more "grown up" cars now. lol
> 
> Jay


SRT4?


----------



## JayinMI

No. Let's see...in our group there is now a Subaru owner (for like 8 years now), a '13 GTI owner (who is on here now), an Envoy owner, and a Wrangler Unlimited owner. One guy is building an old Duster Pro Touring car, that kind of thing. We've all moved on tho I still really like the cars. They were great cars as long as you took care of them.


Jay


----------



## Babs

JayinMI said:


> No. Let's see...in our group there is now a Subaru owner (for like 8 years now), a '13 GTI owner (who is on here now), an Envoy owner, and a Wrangler Unlimited owner. One guy is building an old Duster Pro Touring car, that kind of thing. We've all moved on tho I still really like the cars. They were great cars as long as you took care of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jay



And.... My baby! The reason I got no cash for car audio..


----------



## papasin

Babs said:


> Careful or we'll start talking Injen CAI's or springs, turbo kits, cat-backs, HID's and hondata reflashes.



Meh, not my cup of tea. I initially wanted the LX-S for simplicity. Linda wanted the SI for the color and the power. In retrospect, probably a smart move, and I really didn't want to add any of those as most of those mods would add to overall noise levels detracting from SQ. 



Babs said:


> And can we all have a round of applause to Mercman!! That harness rocks. I'm keeping it to sell with the car unless I do what you recommended and put the 80PRS in the Tacoma.



The Mercman harness definitely was one of the first things in the upgrade path (first page of the build thread) and finally came out when I bit the bullet and went with the W910 to go optical and AI-net into the H800. But the avg. 8th user would not be able to take advantage of it unless having an SI or an EX coupe with premium HU...so Erin is probably thinking we are nuts and wondering what the heck we are talking about.


----------



## SouthSyde

Nice build...


----------



## papasin

SouthSyde said:


> Nice build...


Thanks Chad. Come on out and take a listen.


----------



## Beckerson1

papasin said:


> Correct sir. Very little protrudes from the OEM pillar surface onto the dash. I don't know too much about the EMMA rules, but I bet with the "paper test" that they use in front of the windshield glass, it would be pretty minimal.
> 
> I think even Erin's KEF's aren't much also. I sat it in it once, but didn't really measure the distance but IIRC was not bad at all. As he indicated in the quote previously, "we sedan owners got lucky".
> 
> My mom has the 9th gen sedan, and after looking at her OEM pillars, they now stick a tweeter where we have those little windows, so even the designers realized those windows aren't doing much good and are better served for putting a speaker directly on it.


Lucky for sure. Poor Mark has quite the challenge ahead of him with my pillars. Be interesting to see what he comes up with.


----------



## SouthSyde

papasin said:


> Thanks Chad. Come on out and take a listen.


I will come out. ONe day....


----------



## ErinH

papasin said:


> The Mercman harness definitely was one of the first things in the upgrade path (first page of the build thread) and finally came out when I bit the bullet and went with the W910 to go optical and AI-net into the H800. But the avg. 8th user would not be able to take advantage of it unless having an SI or an EX coupe with premium HU...so Erin is probably thinking we are nuts and wondering what the heck we are talking about.


Oh, I know... I can't tell you the number of threads and PMs I've seen/answered that involved that harness. :laugh:


----------



## Babs

ErinH said:


> Oh, I know... I can't tell you the number of threads and PMs I've seen/answered that involved that harness. :laugh:


At least 3 or 10 from me, I imagine over the years. 

Thing worked great though.. I have to admit the lowly stocker clarion sourced (I think) premium head unit actually put out a pretty clean signal. I'd run one of those Helix or other processors off of it in a heartbeat, except now I want bluetoof's, digital input direct to dac's (USB) and better dac's (burr-bownies). :laugh: Plus, one less box. 

But from an install perspective, going the mercman harness with OEM is a silly easy thing compared to steering wheel adapters (PAC ControlPro) and a relay so the antenna doesn't possibly fry the head unit circuit. Waaahhh  If it were a nicer Acura, i'd stay stock and go the harness route to processing.


----------



## HardCoreDore

ErinH said:


> OT: I see you're in Nashville; I'm in Decatur, AL. About 2 hours from you. I don't know if you are aware, but there's a pretty big car audio comp this weekend in Lebanon. Spectators are always welcome and it's a great chance to meet some of the folks here from around your area. More info is here:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...nny-july-13-2014-meca-3x-show-lebanon-tn.html
> 
> If you decide to come out track me down and I'd be happy to let you demo my setup.


Did you reply to me on 8th regarding this? There's a guy with elite PG amps in his build that I've been speaking with. He will be in Lebanon as well.


----------



## casey

HardCoreDore said:


> Did you reply to me on 8th regarding this? There's a guy with elite PG amps in his build that I've been speaking with. He will be in Lebanon as well.


im the guy with pg amps if youre referring to the guy with the elites and discussing the elite.5 failing. I wont be in lebanon unfortunately though


----------



## ErinH

HardCoreDore said:


> Did you reply to me on 8th regarding this? There's a guy with elite PG amps in his build that I've been speaking with. He will be in Lebanon as well.


I'll shoot you a PM so we don't drag down Richard's thread.


----------



## papasin

@Babs - the Clarion OEM HU was for the non-NAV. IIRC, the OEM NAVI was Alpine. 09 and higher has Bluetooth, and USB, and I was able to do the backup camera retrofit like for the CRVs and it worked really well.

@HardCoreDore - that was me who replied to you on 8th. You asked whether finals was in Lebanon. Finals is in Nashville in October and the event at Lebanon coming up is "The Vinny". Erin can give you more details.

@ErinH - no worries. I think it's been a catch all thread and I don't mind. If it got too OT I would have asked you to clean it up, but I guess I can't anymore.


----------



## HardCoreDore

papasin said:


> @HardCoreDore - that was me who replied to you on 8th. You asked whether finals was in Lebanon. Finals is in Nashville in October and the event at Lebanon coming up is "The Vinny". Erin can give you more details.


Now I'm really confused I was thinking the dude w/ the PG amps @casey, was the dude who I was talking about Lebanon with.... 

Oh well, I get it now so thanx. 

What's the name of that forum app that you can use over there now? I haven't tried installing it due to the fact that it's terms and conditions are imho somewhat invasive. 

As long as it's safe, I'll give it a shot. I do miss usingTapatalk on The Ocho, though...


----------



## papasin

HardCoreDore said:


> Now I'm really confused I was thinking the dude w/ the PG amps @casey, was the dude who I was talking about Lebanon with....


That was indeed casey's thread, I just replied in his thread about the comp(s). That's why you guys need to keep your screen names the same on 8th.  There's a guy over there who's screen name is bikinpunk, so hopefully that's not too confusing.   



HardCoreDore said:


> What's the name of that forum app that you can use over there now? I haven't tried installing it due to the fact that it's terms and conditions are imho somewhat invasive.
> 
> As long as it's safe, I'll give it a shot. I do miss usingTapatalk on The Ocho, though...


Autoguide. Not my favorite, lots of ads. There's a non-free version to get rid of all the ads, but not interested personally since 8th is the only forum I use that app for.


----------



## HardCoreDore

*Re: Update (front stage)*



papasin said:


> Recall
> 
> 
> 
> Well, had some time last weekend. The mids will be upgraded with a set of Image Dynamics X65 and the tweeters to a set of Image Dynamics XS28.
> 
> First, some comparisons. The mids, from left to right: Stock, Infinity Kappas, Image Dynamics X65
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Depth of the X65 mid as you can see is a bit deeper, not to mention won't fit in the stock door location without modifications. The hole needed to be enlarged by cutting into the sheet metal, and a half inch wood baffle was cut to offset the depth. As I've learned from this forum, one of the things good to do is to protect against the elements, so the baffle was coated in truck bedliner. Here's the final result.
> 
> Driver's side:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Passenger side:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The door card needed a little trimming, and was treated with vibration dampener to prevent buzzing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, comparison of the tweeters to go into the stock location. From left to right: Stock, Infinity Kappas, Image Dynamics XS28
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spent time retuning the MS-8. At first, I had a center image that was off to the left. I tried various things, including adjusting the crossover frequency, moving the EQ curve around. I checked the speaker polarity and made sure things were wired correctly. I also played around with the tweeter locations just for the heck of it. Wow, everything sounds amazing with the tweeters off-axis just sitting at the little window. Maybe another upgrade for later? .
> 
> Anyway, I restored the tweeters to the stock location, and retuned with the MS-8. After about 5 days now, and a bit of a break-in, I can definitely say there is a significant improvement. Midrange/midbass is much crisper, and the highs are so much more detailed, without being harsh or bright compared with the Kappas. I was also able to get a better center image, but can't say exactly what I did to get there since I tried a variety of things and not sure which step got me to the final result. Overall, I'm quite happy with the outcome. Probably need to fully seal the doors next to get maximum impact with the mids.


*I know this is an old post to this thread but as you know it's relevant to my car. I have a pair of Boston Pro 6.5 comps in the front and they've never really sounded punchy in the mid bass area. The decline of Boston Acoustics could be to blame, but I've ofter wondered whether a proper wooden baffle would make all the difference. 

As you know the bracket thingy in the door makes door speaker installation a bear. I ended up using Dynamat to seal up the "excess space", creating a baffle of sorts. I assumed that since Dynamat is so good at damping, that it would be a perfect option, but alas I probably didn't know what the hell I was doing. *


















*Any thoughts? I've never really cared for how that component set sounds, btw and it cost well over $400 back in '07.*


----------



## Babs

HardCoreDore,

If I may way in and advise you'd want a good and solid baffle.. Think of it this way..

Any movement of the actual frame of the speaker in any areas of it's frequency range is technically translated as distortion, and resonates into the door panel also as a big beacon of distortion resonance. Bad. 

So, ideally you want the driver frame and surrounding baffle and enclosure perfectly still and isolated from the driver resonances.. As a "rock" supporting the cone being driven by the voice coil. 

This is why higher end home speakers have quite inert non-resonance front baffles and rather heavy enclosure materials and inner bracing, even for smaller floor-standers or stand-mounted (bookshelf) speakers. The 200+ lb B&W 800 speakers are a great example.. Massive layered laminate non-flat enclosure material, bracing and baffles. Yes I love them. Yes I will have a set some day. 

For your application, I'd definitely try a better baffle, even for your Boston Pro's.  Also since the door face is obviously not flat, I used butyl rope between baffle and door surface. 

And be careful you don't deform the driver by screwing it down tightly to a baffle that's warped by being mounted to an imperfect door face.

Tying it into the thread, I particularly like Richard's baffles seen above, as he gave them ample liberal amount of extra MDF material around the outside, which structurally I'd imagine gives them better inertness around the driver to some amount. I may redo mine like that actually, or slather CLD to them possibly.

Speaking on our Civic door panels. How'd you guys like that weld seam that goes right through the speaker hole? Nice huh! Ah the challenges of car audio.


----------



## HardCoreDore

Babs said:


> HardCoreDore,
> 
> If I may way in and advise you'd want a good and solid baffle.. Think of it this way..
> 
> Any movement of the actual frame of the speaker in any areas of it's frequency range is technically translated as distortion, and resonates into the door panel also as a big beacon of distortion resonance. Bad.
> 
> So, ideally you want the driver frame and surrounding baffle and enclosure perfectly still and isolated from the driver resonances.. As a "rock" supporting the cone being driven by the voice coil.
> 
> This is why higher end home speakers have quite inert non-resonance front baffles and rather heavy enclosure materials and inner bracing, even for smaller floor-standers or stand-mounted (bookshelf) speakers. The 200+ lb B&W 800 speakers are a great example.. Massive layered laminate non-flat enclosure material, bracing and baffles. Yes I love them. Yes I will have a set some day.
> 
> For your application, I'd definitely try a better baffle, even for your Boston Pro's.  Also since the door face is obviously not flat, I used butyl rope between baffle and door surface.
> 
> And be careful you don't deform the driver by screwing it down tightly to a baffle that's warped by being mounted to an imperfect door face.
> 
> Tying it into the thread, I particularly like Richard's baffles seen above, as he gave them ample liberal amount of extra MDF material around the outside, which structurally I'd imagine gives them better inertness around the driver to some amount. I may redo mine like that actually, or slather CLD to them possibly.
> 
> Speaking on our Civic door panels. How'd you guys like that weld seam that goes right through the speaker hole? Nice huh! Ah the challenges of car audio.


I've got an amplifier issue to resolve right now, but eventually I'm going to fix this. Before I even read your post, I worried that maybe the baskets were warped from their precarious mounting position. It's not exactly flat, as you say. 

I honestly can only think of a few cars that are worse "car audio cars" than our 8th gen civics. The odd speaker holes, the ridiculous dash, the stock "premium audio system" and it's integration issues... I know the Windows on the dash of the sedan are pretty nice for speaker pods, but that's more than most people know how to do.


----------



## Babs

You can booger up a speaker pretty quickly, especially stamped frame drivers, by warping when mounting to a non-flat baffle.

I'm finding, and Richard and Erin I'm sure can attest to this, like many cars, our Civ's appreciate simply being stripped down completely, seats AND carpet as well. Mine is still very much naked, waiting on me, but makes work sooooo much easier.

Yeah I'm about to find out about those A-pillars.


----------



## ErinH

Agreed. It's much easier to strip a car down and do an install rather than routing wires and installing gear around the seats, console, trim, etc.


----------



## captainobvious

x1000

And it's fairly quick and easy once you've done it once or twice.


----------



## JSM-FA5

Not to backtrack to far, but how deep is the fiberglass kick for the ZR800?
I'm strongly considering the new SI 6.5 for the door in mine like we discussed, but I would love to be able to do 8's in the floor if it's not to much $


----------



## papasin

JSM-FA5 said:


> Not to backtrack to far, but how deep is the fiberglass kick for the ZR800?
> I'm strongly considering the new SI 6.5 for the door in mine like we discussed, but I would love to be able to do 8's in the floor if it's not to much $


Not sure what you mean by how deep the fiberglass is. IMO, the kicks with the 8s are probably the best investment I made in this build. It just anchors the midbass and something I will likely never change.


----------



## JSM-FA5

Sorry, It was midnight on the east coast haha. I should have added "enclosure" to the post. Like a sub is a cubic foot, how big is the enclosure your the mid?


----------



## papasin

JSM-FA5 said:


> Sorry, It was midnight on the east coast haha. I should have added "enclosure" to the post. Like a sub is a cubic foot, how big is the enclosure your the mid?


The kick panels where the 8s reside are hard to gauge in terms of "enclosure" size, as they are vented into the frame. They are not pure IB though as they are not vented to the outside, but there is no issue with them digging low.


----------



## casey

JSM-FA5 said:


> Not to backtrack to far, but how deep is the fiberglass kick for the ZR800?
> I'm strongly considering the new SI 6.5 for the door in mine like we discussed, but I would love to be able to do 8's in the floor if it's not to much $


Youre going to be better off in the door with the 6.5 or even an MW172 like mine price wise. Not to speak for Richard as I dont know the price, but the amount of labor involved with his kick enclosures is enough to make your head spin lol.


----------



## papasin

casey said:


> Youre going to be better off in the door with the 6.5 or even an MW172 like mine price wise. Not to speak for Richard as I dont know the price, but the amount of labor involved with his kick enclosures is enough to make your head spin lol.


It comes down to what the priorities are...as it certainly is a tradeoff. It will be very difficult to play 50 or lower in a door unless you box them like garysummers, jon w, or badfish did in their vehicles. @63, even with a very solid install, things like door latches and little things could still rattle a bit at volume if you are listening for those things critically. Personally for me, unless I have an up front sub, I will never put midbasses in a door, and even then, I will try to avoid door speakers like a plague.  

EDIT: and if you think labor prices on kickpanels are high...you should shop around to find out how much fiberglassing a door costs.


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> EDIT: and if you think labor prices on kickpanels are high...you should shop around to find out how much fiberglassing a door costs.


I've heard rumor.


----------



## casey

papasin said:


> It comes down to what the priorities are...as it certainly is a tradeoff. It will be very difficult to play 50 or lower in a door unless you box them like garysummers, jon w, or badfish did in their vehicles. @63, even with a very solid install, things like door latches and little things could still rattle a bit at volume if you are listening for those things critically. Personally for me, unless I have an up front sub, I will never put midbasses in a door, and even then, I will try to avoid door speakers like a plague.
> 
> EDIT: and if you think labor prices on kickpanels are high...you should shop around to find out how much fiberglassing a door costs.


I dont even want to know pricing on glassing a door lol. Youre right there are positives and negatives to both. I have some buzzing from the outer door handle on drivers side, but its not audible in the car. Plus the door skins actually flex back and forth enough to see, which is more humorous than anything.


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> I've heard rumor.


Hehe, yeah, if you're talking about Gary's doors, let's just say he specifically said he doesn't drive the car anymore in fear of being T-boned...so he tows the Benz to meets.


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> Hehe, yeah, if you're talking about Gary's doors, let's just say he specifically said he doesn't drive the car anymore in fear of being T-boned...so he tows the Benz to meets.


Among others.  As I understand it, he has other reasons for not driving the Benz as well.


----------



## JSM-FA5

papasin said:


> The kick panels where the 8s reside are hard to gauge in terms of "enclosure" size, as they are vented into the frame. They are not pure IB though as they are not vented to the outside, but there is no issue with them digging low.


Vented into the frame just went past my area of fabrication haha. I would be fine glassing a kick panel, but I don't like to mess with the frame.



casey said:


> Youre going to be better off in the door with the 6.5 or even an MW172 like mine price wise. Not to speak for Richard as I dont know the price, but the amount of labor involved with his kick enclosures is enough to make your head spin lol.


I'm going to give those 6.5's a shot with the AP 3". But I'm probably going to have to steal your idea of the 8" in the door. I have said it before, but I would take your set up with no sub, over mine with a sub. So clean sounding


----------



## papasin

Thank you very much MrsPapasin!!


----------



## casey

custom fitted windshield drape? Ballin! Are those magnets holding it to the metal?

Its crazy what kind of difference a drape can make. Listening to my car at night with nothing in front takes all distractions away


----------



## ErinH

This is what I use. 
Gila PB78 Privacy Residential Window Film, Black, 36-Inch by 6-1/2-Feet https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HE57JS/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_AUPaub0CF4TNH


Thanks to my buddy Mike for cutting it for me. Static cling. Toss it on and peel it back off. Should've seen the looks I got at Finals last year when I drive through the building to go outside where I had to be judged. People actually stopped me to ask if that was permanent tint. Lol. 

I'll have it on at finals this year. Been using it at shows since then. Helps keep the car cooler inside, too.


----------



## JayinMI

papasin said:


> Thank you very much MrsPapasin!!





casey said:


> custom fitted windshield drape? Ballin! Are those magnets holding it to the metal?
> 
> Its crazy what kind of difference a drape can make. Listening to my car at night with nothing in front takes all distractions away


Now...here's a crazy idea...what if you had a picture on the inside of that of say, a band with the vocalist in the center or something, for those who "judge with their eyes." Like the whole thing where people added tweeters to tweeterless installs. lol

(BTW, I'm copyrighting that idea, so if I see it used somewhere, someone owes me a beer, lol)

Jay


----------



## Golden Ear

JayinMI said:


> Now...here's a crazy idea...what if you had a picture on the inside of that of say, a band with the vocalist in the center or something, for those who "judge with their eyes." Like the whole thing where people added tweeters to tweeterless installs. lol
> 
> (BTW, I'm copyrighting that idea, so if I see it used somewhere, someone owes me a beer, lol)
> 
> Jay


This:lol::lol:

Erin, thanks for posting that. I think I'm gonna order one of those as no one in my family has the skills to sew one up like Richard and Lindas


----------



## papasin

casey said:


> Are those magnets holding it to the metal?


Yes, although the ones pictured are smaller ones that MrsPapasin only use for test fitting. For GTGs/comps, the ones we use is on the Smart's build thread which are a bit larger magnets to prevent the cover from flying off.



JayinMI said:


> Now...here's a crazy idea...what if you had a picture on the inside of that of say, a band with the vocalist in the center or something, for those who "judge with their eyes." Like the whole thing where people added tweeters to tweeterless installs. lol
> 
> (BTW, I'm copyrighting that idea, so if I see it used somewhere, someone owes me a beer, lol)
> 
> Jay


What makes you think this cover isn't already set up like that Jay, with marks for where center, left center, right center, etc. are to "help" the judge?  

In all seriousness, the idea of blacking out the windshield is far from original and there are definitely different ways to do this. A few others like garysummers have been doing this for some time, so we absolutely don't take any credit for it. Just to give other ideas, I've seen a couple use vinyl that is traced for their windshield. I've seen others just use their sunshade, and tape it down to their windshields. In the last competition when I judged over a dozen cars at Bing/JOey's shop, there were several doing this even though I was judging the cars in the install bay. When I got out of a couple cars, one of the competitors asked me whether I found this helpful or hurtful. To be honest, I find that for some cars, it actually makes things more difficult. Some definitely helped, and a couple, it didn't seem to matter whether there was a cover or not. Just depends I guess.


----------



## ErinH

Golden Ear said:


> This:lol::lol:
> 
> Erin, thanks for posting that. I think I'm gonna order one of those as no one in my family has the skills to sew one up like Richard and Lindas


John Pionke had the idea to use something more transparent. And the reason why is something we had discussed at Finals in 2012: when I sit in a car that's totally blacked out I feel like I lose sense of space. Yea, it's less distracting because you don't see people walking around, but it feels like there's a physical wall put up between you and the windshield which really messes with me psychoacoustically. The stage just doesn't seem as expansive anymore. I know you should listen with your eyes closed, but first impressions are everything. If I sit down in a walled off box, I feel like I'm in a walled off box. John said he was going to get some tint that he could use to cover up the windshield. And when I asked our buddy Mike Stills (Tintbox; who owns a tintshop), Mike suggested I use that static cling stuff. So, I use the tint cling because it's easy to peel on and off, provides some privacy/seclusion, but doesn't totally knock off my sense of environment when I get in a car. Best part is you can buy it at Home Depot for about $15 and still have plenty left over from covering your windshield.

Additionally, I've heard stories where people (a particular member of this forum, actually) used something to cover up his windshield at a meet/show in the summer. He kept the A/C on. When it was time to leave, his windshield actually cracked from the differential. Crazy stuff. So, the tint stuff helps to cool the car off but isn't a complete buffer between the sun and the windshield. 


This isn't a slight at Mr/Mrs Papasin or anyone else who uses a different method such as carpet/vinyl. I've done it before for years myself as have others so some people obviously get usefulness from it. I just personally feel like it messes with my sense of space; it's totally subjective. I'm just sharing another alternative that my buddy came up with and I found works well for me for a few different reasons.


----------



## papasin

ErinH said:


> John Pionke had the idea to use something more transparent. And the reason why is something we had discussed at Finals in 2012: when I sit in a car that's totally blacked out I feel like I lose sense of space. Yea, it's less distracting because you don't see people walking around, but it feels like there's a physical wall put up between you and the windshield which really messes with me psychoacoustically. The stage just doesn't seem as expansive anymore. I know you should listen with your eyes closed, but first impressions are everything. If I sit down in a walled off box, I feel like I'm in a walled off box. John said he was going to get some tint that he could use to cover up the windshield. And when I asked our buddy Mike Stills (Tintbox; who owns a tintshop), Mike suggested I use that static cling stuff. So, I use the tint cling because it's easy to peel on and off, provides some privacy/seclusion, but doesn't totally knock off my sense of environment when I get in a car. Best part is you can buy it at Home Depot for about $15 and still have plenty left over from covering your windshield.
> 
> Additionally, I've heard stories where people (a particular member of this forum, actually) used something to cover up his windshield at a meet/show in the summer. He kept the A/C on. When it was time to leave, his windshield actually cracked from the differential. Crazy stuff. So, the tint stuff helps to cool the car off but isn't a complete buffer between the sun and the windshield.
> 
> 
> This isn't a slight at Mr/Mrs Papasin or anyone else who uses a different method such as carpet/vinyl. I've done it before for years myself as have others so some people obviously get usefulness from it. I just personally feel like it messes with my sense of space; it's totally subjective. I'm just sharing another alternative that my buddy came up with and I found works well for me for a few different reasons.


Thanks for sharing your rationale Erin. TBH, when I judged your car at Lebanon, I found the tint a bit distracting FWIW. Maybe it was the time of day (or rather by the time your car was being judged, night), or maybe it was the fact that putting tint on unless perfectly applied perfectly could have some bubbling effect. You're right in that it's probably entirely subjective. Having judged over 50 cars this season, for me, it seems to be dependent car to car and on what the situation is. YMMV.


----------



## MrsPapasin

Hey Erin, appreciate the alternative suggestion. We'll let everyone decide for themselves what works for them. Personally I am not worried about any issues you mentioned. I have gotten very good depth scores even getting compliments from the judge that my car had the deepest depth of the competition that day even when using the cover. This is in a competition with 16 other cars. Also temperature differential I doubt is an issue since if that were the case we'd all have cracked windows in our homes. The material I use is black out curtains. And finally IMHO I like the look of what we're doing here over tinted film. The thing to point out here is that neither is a wrong solution. Both keep the car cooler and minimize distractions. It's simply a personal choice.


----------



## MrsPapasin

Golden Ear said:


> This:lol::lol:
> 
> Erin, thanks for posting that. I think I'm gonna order one of those as no one in my family has the skills to sew one up like Richard and Lindas



Golden Ear, I can make one for you just bring your truck on by for a fitting.


----------



## ErinH

Agreed. Different strokes for different folks. 

Back to the temp thing... You don't put blackout curtains outside your house. Ryan had a cover of some sort over his windshield and when he left for the day I'm told his window cracked. The theory was the dramatic swing in temp on the glass caused the crack. You'd have to ask him for details if it matters.


----------



## Golden Ear

MrsPapasin said:


> Golden Ear, I can make one for you just bring your truck on by for a fitting.


Done! Let me know when you guys are available and I'll be there


----------



## jtaudioacc

i put these on the windshield cover. gives a real sense of "space". fools the judges every time! well, unless their blind.


----------



## HardCoreDore

jtaudioacc said:


> i put these on the windshield cover. gives a real sense of "space". fools the judges every time! well, unless their blind.


I had a bunch of those on my ceiling in HS. They really looked cool with my blacklist posters and lava lamp.


----------



## captainobvious

I like the cover and would love to have one myself. I just use a big piece of leftover auto carpet currently.

I find it to _always _be more beneficial to blackout the front, and even better if you can keep the whole cabin as dark as possible. Less to see means your eyes aren't telling you what you're hearing or distracting you from being able to really focus.


----------



## ErinH

jtaudioacc said:


> i put these on the windshield cover. gives a real sense of "space". fools the judges every time! well, unless their blind.


you should patent that!


----------



## BigRed

Put one of these in the front passenger seat for the judges to see


----------



## sqnut

Just curious, do some judges listen with eyes closed? Or do they have to listen with eyes open so that they can locate L&R edge of stage? Maybe Richard can give some input...


----------



## ErinH

sqnut said:


> Just curious, do some judges listen with eyes closed? Or do they have to listen with eyes open so that they can locate L&R edge of stage? Maybe Richard can give some input...


I've been competing off and on for only about 5 years now but IME there's only been one time a judge listened with his eyes open. And he defined the boundaries as the physical boundaries because he saw them... that's how I knew he listened with his eyes open and I verified it when I asked him. Every other judge has listened with eyes closed, as they should and my width/depth scores have almost always been at least 5 out of 6. The guy who listened with his eyes open that one time gave me a 4.

I'd imagine most have had the same experience.


----------



## Serieus

ErinH said:


> Agreed. Different strokes for different folks.
> 
> Back to the temp thing... You don't put blackout curtains outside your house. Ryan had a cover of some sort over his windshield and when he left for the day I'm told his window cracked. The theory was the dramatic swing in temp on the glass caused the crack. You'd have to ask him for details if it matters.


he told us this story at one of Jason's meets, if i remember correctly it cracked from someone blasting cold ac through the defrost. may be wrong though.


----------



## sqnut

ErinH said:


> Every other judge has listened with eyes closed, as they should


Thought as much and hence covering the windshield might just be a case of psychoacoustics. I mean, if the judge has his eyes closed, he's not going to be distracted by the PYT walking around in tight jeans, in any case.


----------



## bertholomey

This has been an interesting discussion that has spawned from a picture of a windshield cover  I do love the cover that Richard and Linda are using (so this is a relevant post )

Richard's build thread is probably not the ideal place for this discussion, but it might be ridiculous to start a new thread about this.......For fear of causing a 'debate / discussion' on this issue, I'm not going to further litter this build thread with a different perspective on the 'eyes closed while listening' thing......but I might find a place for it somewhere


----------



## papasin

No worries Jason. I said it before, seems like my build thread tends to been a catch all, from discussion of what is the favorite food places of various installers, to now this most recent discussion that started from a single pic. :surprised:

My quick perspective on the process that I use when I judge...so that I don't get a flurry of comments, knowing that other local competitors follow my own thread... 

I judge the imaging portion of the MECA scoresheet with my eyes closed, but the tonality portion with my eyes open. I don't pretend to speak for all judges, and I don't belittle any judge for doing it differently. There is NO requirement that I am aware off that necessitates a judge to have their eyes open or closed in MECA. Might be different for the other sanctioning bodies, so I defer to others trained in those formats. Personally, I've come up with this as my own methodology to do it in this manner since it helps expedite things. Not saying this is the right or wrong way to do it and the only way to do it correctly. In my case, pretty much every comp that I've judged, I've had to judge double digit cars in the same day (often only half a day), and every minute I can save helps. Also, since I have to write scores down, I often have to open my eyes, so don't bash me for opening my eyes and get on my case if or when they are open...as I tend to write comments right away so I don't forget, so need my eyes for that...unless competitors want the wrong scores in the wrong section and don't care for comments. :surprised:

Also, I know one particular judge that keeps his eyes open the whole time. I wonder if that makes it wrong...seeing he's blind.


----------



## ErinH

I think you guys should have custom windshield covers for the judges who keep their eyes open. Stitch their name on it so it's more personal. Problem solved.


----------



## ErinH

It should be worth noting for people who don't compete, not everyone uses windshield covers. Most people do it here to block the sun from setting their car on fire. 


You guys want to get in to further discussion?... consider this: Some people who don't use windshield covers also won't park in front of a wall at a show for the same reasons mentioned before. I don't deny there's an air of audiophoolery going on ... but admitting it is the first step, no?


----------



## MrsPapasin

Just say it Erin, I know you want a windshield cover. All you had to do was ask.  It's real easy too since I already have a template with Richard's car. :laugh:


----------



## bertholomey

Cool.....what I was going to say is very similar to what Richard just posted......For me.......(and I'm weird)......the center image drifts when I close my eyes......for some reason, I get disoriented spatially.......as soon as I open them, the center snaps back into place. So.....I tend to always listen with my eyes open (except when I'm listening to my headphones ). I feel like I can discern the width of the presentation without being biased with regards to speaker placement - I either hear it that way or not. 

So, as Richard said, just because you notice someone judging or listening to your car with their eyes open doesn't make them wrong......doesn't make them a bad judge......and if they mark your width as less than stellar......that might not be because they listened with their eyes.....might just be that your width isn't stellar.


----------



## ErinH

MrsPapasin said:


> Just say it Erin, I know you want a windshield cover. All you had to do was ask.  It's real easy too since I already have a template with Richard's car. :laugh:


Well, heck, if I had known that!.... 

Before this gets too far, let me again state what I said in my original reply:
This is a very subjective area. What I think/feel about the topic is obviously understood as just an opinion based on my own crazy psychology. Just as we all have a crazy synapses-firing issue in this hobby (some more than others... you know who you are ). 

I've used carpet, towels, etc to block the view from the car. And, TBH, the reason was a mix of: keep hooligans from making googly eyes at a listener while they're in the car, lessen distraction for a judge from said googly eyed spectator, and to block the heat. 
It's worth noting that I'm often a googly eyed spectator as well. 

I'm not knocking carpet/vinyl/man-made clouds used on the windshield. The whole topic is kinda silly, if we're being honest. Think... we have a debate that someone doesn't like the material we have over our windshields. LOL. Again, use what works best for you for your own crazy reasons... I sure do. Sometimes I don't even bother with it because I'm that lazy. 





bertholomey said:


> Cool.....what I was going to say is very similar to what Richard just posted......For me.......(and I'm weird)......the center image drifts when I close my eyes......for some reason, I get disoriented spatially.......as soon as I open them, the center snaps back into place. So.....I tend to always listen with my eyes open (except when I'm listening to my headphones ). I feel like I can discern the width of the presentation without being biased with regards to speaker placement - I either hear it that way or not.
> 
> So, as Richard said, just because you notice someone judging or listening to your car with their eyes open doesn't make them wrong......doesn't make them a bad judge......and if they mark your width as less than stellar......that might not be because they listened with their eyes.....might just be that your width isn't stellar.


I'm the opposite. When I drive, I feel like the center loses focus and the point where center was goes left. When I close my eyes, things seem to sound better. It's friggin' crazy, man. Drives me willy. 

As we've discovered in the last day, everyone does their own thing. Heck, I can't TELL you the number of demos I've given where people actually lean TOWARD the speakers ... it's really awkward because I want to say "dude, you gotta lean back" but at the same time, I don't wanna sound like a crazy audiophile. So, I just let them do their thing. 

I think what's important, though, in all seriousness, is that we at least recognize this craziness. Instead of saying "oh, dude, it's totally the amount of UV you're seeing that causes it", we just admit our brains are funky. I wish more of that honesty could be applied to the rest of the hobby where psychoacoustics are dominant.


----------



## casey

ErinH said:


> I'm the opposite. When I drive, I feel like the center loses focus and the point where center was goes left. When I close my eyes, things seem to sound better. It's friggin' crazy, man. Drives me willy.
> 
> As we've discovered in the last day, everyone does their own thing. Heck, I can't TELL you the number of demos I've given where people actually lean TOWARD the speakers ... it's really awkward because I want to say "dude, you gotta lean back" but at the same time, I don't wanna sound like a crazy audiophile. So, I just let them do their thing.
> 
> I think what's important, though, in all seriousness, is that we at least recognize this craziness. Instead of saying "oh, dude, it's totally the amount of UV you're seeing that causes it", we just admit our brains are funky. I wish more of that honesty could be applied to the rest of the hobby where psychoacoustics are dominant.



pretty interesting how everyone has their own experiences. Im wondering if its car and similar driver placement, but mine does the EXACT same while driving, I definitely get my center pulled left. 


I seem to enjoy listening to mine in low light, with a candle lit at the beach. Well, at least the low lighting part.


----------



## bertholomey

Now, to be clear......I typically always have my eyes open when I'm driving ?


----------



## ErinH

where's the fun in that? :shrugs:


----------



## casey

Live a little, geez.


----------



## bertholomey

Fuddy Duddy!


----------



## papasin

Ok, back on topic lol...made some changes. As I said in the other thread...



papasin said:


> there's my Civic, and that is still going and will likely continue to evolve since, well, I can't seem to help myself.


I have to admit, I thought long and hard how to approach these changes and I can honestly say I am really really happy with the thought process, execution, and end result. IMHO, these are some of the biggest improvements that have been made to my car. Don't get me wrong, the previous iterations were very good. But some of these changes have just taken the car to the next level.

With state finals next weekend, I'm going to wait to fully disclose the updates until after the event. So for those that have seen the changes in person, please keep them to yourself for now. But here is a sneak peek. 




























Also, please don't be too harsh on our limited DIY skills as all these updates were done in true DIY fashion. While we were at it, we had a chance to make a new panel for the trunk to make it a little easier to get to the amps (and let them breathe better). The previous panel was also quite flimsy, and it required removing the sub enclosure to fully access the amps. Thanks to Linda for helping stretch the carpet on this panel. She'll tell you how much work that is, whew! Thanks sweetie.  The carpet isn't a perfect match, but it's "good enough" for me and we are happy how it turned out.



















Subs still remain as those aren't going anywhere. 



















Linda and I spent some time last week in tuning the car to get it pretty close. I would like to acknowledge and thank Jim (aka BigRed) for his time this weekend to get the car really dialed in, and as I hinted at, very very happy with these updates. For me, the end result and the car has never sounded better. Can't wait to get feedback from the judges at CA state finals this year.


----------



## rton20s

Wish I could have been around to hear the final tune that Jim was able to achieve. I enjoyed the few minutes I did get to hear before Jim got his hands on it. I'll definitely need to carve out some time for another demo in your car next weekend. 

I'm looking forward to state finals! I think some folks are going to be surprised.


----------



## bertholomey

Awesome! Next weekend will be very REVEALING! ?


----------



## james2266

Wish I could be there as usual. Hmmm.... Carbon C3 set now by chance. Tuned in for the full unveiling.


----------



## rton20s

james2266 said:


> Wish I could be there as usual. Hmmm.... Carbon C3 set now by chance. Tuned in for the full unveiling.


If that were a set of C3s, I don't think they would have been in his car after Friday night and I would be feverishly thrashing to update my build before this weekend.


----------



## james2266

rton20s said:


> If that were a set of C3s, I don't think they would have been in his car after Friday night and I would be feverishly thrashing to update my build before this weekend.


lol, ok, maybe true. Still, will be interesting to see what exactly the man has done. Sadly, this venue is the closest I will get to hearing/seeing what that is.


----------



## captainobvious

Hmmm...Love the mystery game. Especially the out of focus mystery pic 

Looks like a fine carpeting job by Mrs Papasin on the trunk panel. Looking forward to the big reveal!


----------



## casey

good luck this weekend, sounds like you have your ducks in a row!

Also interested to see what changes have been made


----------



## JSM-FA5

I'm with Casey. Good luck and looking forward to the update


----------



## DLO13

rton20s said:


> If that were a set of C3s, I don't think they would have been in his car after Friday night and I would be feverishly thrashing to update my build before this weekend.


I think Richard has some other 3" drivers he likes better than Illusions.


----------



## rton20s

DLO13 said:


> I think Richard has some other 3" drivers he likes better than Illusions.


Understandable. Considering the Illusions aren't available yet.  A bird in the hand... and all of that.


----------



## papasin

casey said:


> good luck this weekend, sounds like you have your ducks in a row!
> 
> Also interested to see what changes have been made





JSM-FA5 said:


> I'm with Casey. Good luck and looking forward to the update


Thanks guys, really appreciate it. Still working on a couple last minute things...and helping MrsPapasin with her build as well. We've got a couple more surprises in store. :surprised:


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> Thanks guys, really appreciate it. Still working on a couple last minute things...and helping MrsPapasin with her build as well. We've got a couple more surprises in store. :surprised:


Should we all be packing tools to help you guys work on the cars on Saturday night?


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> Should we all be packing tools to help you guys work on the cars on Saturday night?


We're making progress. Check out MrsPapasin's latest post.


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> We're making progress. Check out MrsPapasin's latest post.


Yeah... we should all bring tools. The way things are going, you guys will be bringing a whole suitcase dedicated to backup and/or optional drivers.


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> Yeah... we should all bring tools. The way things are going, you guys will be bringing a whole suitcase dedicated to backup and/or optional drivers.


We have a well stocked toolbox that we bring to comps and typically bring spare drivers when we are able. You should have seen MrsPapasin having to make some adjustments at the Torrance comp (and I don't mean just tuning adjustments) right up until Mike had to judge. 

Always better to be prepared...as anything can happen. :worried:


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> Always better to be prepared...as anything can happen. :worried:


It certainly can.


----------



## papasin

casey said:


> good luck this weekend, sounds like you have your ducks in a row!
> 
> Also interested to see what changes have been made






JSM-FA5 said:


> I'm with Casey. Good luck and looking forward to the update



Wow, what a weekend. There were 14 SPL competitors and 25 SQ cars. Definitely the biggest CA state finals I have been to and we didn't get out of there until after midnight! Not complaining one bit and my hats off to everyone responsible for the event (coordinators, hosts, sponsors), the judges that powered through it, and all the competitors. It was very competitive in all the classes and I'll comment more when I get a chance in the respective threads.

I will disclose the updates as soon as I am able when I return home as we ended up spending an extra night that we weren't planning on, but suffice it to say, the updates did very well. The Civic scored an average of 82.08 across three judges in the MODEX class and there were 5 cars in that class. The comments were very valuable and consistent. The 82.08 was the 3rd highest score out of the 25 cars, with the two scores higher by cars in the Extreme class (and there was a tie at the very top so actually 3 cars edged the Civic for top honors in SQ).

Still very proud of the evolution, and the result.










More to come...


----------



## REGULARCAB

Grats!


----------



## shutmdown

i spy Limited Edition Zapco amps...


----------



## piyush7243

Congrats Richard!! Another feather in the cap.


----------



## crea_78

Congrats on another win!!


----------



## rton20s

Congratulations Richard! I really wanted to get some seat time in the Civic and Smart, but I figured after the minivan incident I didn't want to risk it before judging.


----------



## bertholomey

Awesome job Richard! Congrats!


----------



## captainobvious

Way to go, congrats Richard (and Linda)! You both had a great season and what a fantastic finish at State's.

Looking forward to the "update" pics


----------



## shinjohn

Nicely done. Congrats on the win!


----------



## MrsPapasin

Congratulations, Mr. Papasin!  So proud of you!


----------



## JayinMI

Awesome, Richard! Congrats!
So, are the Civic and Smart going to Tenessee? I might have to look into going to the finals. (Yeah...fat chance.) lol

Jay


----------



## astrochex

Congrats on your victory Richard!

You guys must have a trophy room with the hardware you accumulate.


----------



## ErinH

looking forward to hearing another civic at finals.


----------



## papasin

Thanks everyone. Sorry for the delay. Just getting back into the swing of things trying to get back to life after a great event Sunday. As another competitor mentioned and I fully concur, I think everyone who attended won. It was a great experience, but was a very long day and I'm still on the road to recovering from the event. I can only imagine for the judges who powered through it with that many cars. Anyway, so on to the updates...



papasin said:


>





shutmdown said:


> i spy Limited Edition Zapco amps...


Maybe it was a little too obvious? Lol

So yes, I installed some new power for the Civic. Don't get me wrong. I LOVE the Mosconis. The A-class is probably the best amp I ever owned and not sure if I will ever let it go. And using a pair of Zero3s for mid bass and sub duty were just incredible. All the amps were ultra clean, ultra low noise floor, just did what they were designed to do and amplify. I also loved the aesthetics, the way all the controls were top mounted, and were ultra reliable even through multiple long trips including through the AZ desert and many jaunts back and forth between NorCal and SoCal.

But to achieve some of the goals I wanted, I needed a solution with more channels, and while I'm at it, also decided to go with more power. You can probably call me a sucker also for "anniversary edition" amps.  If you recall, the Mosconi Zero amps were "Dedicated to 150th Anniversary of the unification of Italy".

So, why not. 40th anniversary Zapco LE amps it is.  A little package arrived in the mail not too long ago. Opened up the first box...










Pull out all the bubble wrap, and here is the second box...










Open that second box, and voila.










Let's check out one of these



















Gut shots




























More info on these Limited Edition 40th Anniversary Zapcos can be found here: http://zapco.com/images/imageready/Product/z/LE.pdf

Some notable features (just to name a few):


Tiffany style bolt through RCA connectors
Separate left and right channel gain controls for every channel and all other preamp controls are eliminated (no crossovers or filters and designed for a full active setup)
Analog Devices OP 275 Op-amps
Mica caps and Elna Simlic ll Eletrolytics
Twin power supplies on the 150.4-LE, so basically has all the power of its 2 channel version


The pair side by side...hmmm. 










So while setting gains with an O-scope, I also noticed that these amps are very much underrated. For the pair I received, I would say they easily achieve 210Wx4 to a 4 ohm load before any hint of clipping.

So with these amps, I'll be able to power the tweeters and mids active at 150x4 and bridge a pair of channels at 500x2 for the mid basses. So how I have them configured is essentially one amp handles the left side, and the other amp handles the right side.

I reworked the trunk layout a little, and this is what I came up with.










Then I cut a quick beauty panel and covered it with vinyl.




























Lesson learned...wrapping vinyl around a round hole is a PITA. The wrinkles are less noticeable in person and in different lighting, but this is something I will look to redo in the future. But since I don't compete in install, this was "good enough" for the show and at least makes the amps presentable.  

But for the most part, the amps are covered up and this is how you see the trunk.


----------



## papasin

And a little addition to the back.


----------



## bigbubba

Wow, Richard that came out nice and those amps look awesome. I have also looked into those amps but the funding isn't there. Congrats!


----------



## JayinMI

So, are you still running the sub with the Mosconi?

Jay


----------



## Babs

Richard and Mrs, a huge congrats from the east coast! To think I remember a guy just tearing into his Civic and throwing in some tweets, mids, MS-8, amps and sub and callin' it done.  You guys have really come along. I stand lurking in the shadows as a mere observer of greatness with the likes of Erin and Richard in the 8th Civic tunes department. 

Richard, I need to search back when I have time on that sub box setup.. That's pretty hot diggity. My wittle Dayton HO 10 is still sitting in a box. It's shameful.


----------



## rton20s

JayinMI said:


> So, are you still running the sub with the Mosconi?
> 
> Jay


I was wondering if someone was going to ask that question.


----------



## quality_sound

rton20s said:


> I was wondering if someone was going to ask that question.


It was the first thing that popped into my head too.


----------



## papasin

Getting to the rest of the updates...but for the subs, a single Zero3 works great. The question is, would you guys really know the difference if I did swap it?


----------



## papasin

So moving right along, I decided to go a different direction with the mid/tweeter in this car. Make no mistake, the Illusion Audio C4CX are great drivers, and I am confident would work very well in other vehicles because of the ease afforded with the mid/tweet integration, and also evidenced by MrsPapasin's success with her C5CX set for the bulk of the season. I have no reservations in making the recommendation with the CX drivers.

In fact, the direction I went isn't far. I went with the Illusion Audio C4 midrange, largely because these were a direct drop-in to my current pillars. I was finally able to take some pics of them yesterday when I wasn't rushing to get the install done for state finals. 



















Pics are taken from the driver seat and they look right at home.


----------



## rton20s

More, more, more! Do I sense some "strategery" in the framing of those photos?


----------



## JayinMI

So...where are the tweeters? haha

Jay


----------



## Babs

JayinMI said:


> So...where are the tweeters? haha
> 
> Jay


That was my thought, though yes those mids are lovely.


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> More, more, more! Do I sense some "strategery" in the framing of those photos?





JayinMI said:


> So...where are the tweeters? haha
> 
> Jay





Babs said:


> That was my thought, though yes those mids are lovely.


I can't get a break with this crowd (sigh). Maybe I should just close the build thread. :mean: :worried: 

Didn't you guys ever learn?


----------



## papasin

papasin said:


>





james2266 said:


> Wish I could be there as usual. Hmmm.... Carbon C3 set now by chance. Tuned in for the full unveiling.





rton20s said:


> If that were a set of C3s, I don't think they would have been in his car after Friday night and I would be feverishly thrashing to update my build before this weekend.





DLO13 said:


> I think Richard has some other 3" drivers he likes better than Illusions.


So going back to a few previous posts, while 3" drivers have a place in some installs, I personally am not going down in cone area for the midrange in this car...at least not in the foreseeable future.  Been there, done that. 

Anyway, tweets are coming guys, getting there, I promise.


----------



## rton20s

I'm just giving you a hard time Richard. I look forward to the complete reveal. Besides, now that state finals have come and gone, it is "old news" for some of us.  Just having some fun torturing the folks not on the West coast.


----------



## JayinMI

I just saw that the Finals is only 9 hours from me. If the Smart and the Civic were going to be there...might be worth the drive. lol Since I don't live on the West Coast. 

Jay


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> I'm just giving you a hard time Richard. I look forward to the complete reveal. Besides, now that state finals have come and gone, it is "old news" for some of us.  Just having some fun torturing the folks not on the West coast.


Torturing is NOT the intent lol. Talk to JOey and ask him how he likes putting up build logs.  It takes time to do such things, and when you're trying to scramble to get pretty much a mini rebuild done in time for a big event like state finals, taking pictures, uploading them to a hosting site, etc. is not at the top of my list of things...not to mention getting enough time tuning, getting kids to school, tennis practice, Japanese school, gymnastics, etc. You'll know soon enough Dustin...


----------



## rton20s

I know. Trust me I know. Well... not the Japanese school.  

There are many stages of my own build log that are not well documented.


----------



## Golden Ear

Congratulations on the big win Richard!! What a day that was. I couldn't be happier for you!

I was lucky enough to hear the car a few days before finals and it truly does sound incredible. The changes made a huge difference and it shows! I can't wait to hear it again.


----------



## papasin

Thanks Golden Ear, appreciate the kind words.

Ok, so onto the tweeters. People were quick to guess on the amps. And on Linda's Smart thread, her Scans. But no guesses on my tweeters?  



papasin said:


>


Or is it too exotic? 

I guess someone would have spoiled it by now if they knew (or weren't sworn to secrecy) . I suppose if it were some of the usual suspects, maybe it would have been more obvious. Anyway, first time I heard the tweeters I went with was when I listened to pionkej's vehicle when I judged it at Freezefest. Of course, it's hard to gauge and ultimately make a decision on speakers when you just listen to them in a car...since knowing people's ability to tune often times makes it difficult to make a decision on speakers. Even "ok" speakers in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing can often be made to sound great. Also, my car and his are very different vehicles, so what works in his may not work in mine. But ultimately, I had a fair level of confidence in where this would be headed, and I am very very happy that I took that "leap". I purchased pionkej's spare set first, and evaluated them. I ultimately bought a BNIB set by sourcing a pair and am keeping what I got from pionkej as my "spares". 

So the tweeters I went with are the Alpine DLX-F30T.

http://www.alpine.co.jp/caraudio/speaker/dlx-f30t/

Some pics of the BNIB set.














































All the instructions in Japanese, but I know someone who can help me with that if needed. 










Mounting hardware included if flush mounting is desired










In addition to the response of these tweeters (and make no mistake, these tweeters are big), the other reason that I chose them is for their mounting capabilities. In my car, I don't have sail panels. But I wanted to put these tweeters outside of the mids and aim them on-axis. So the mounting scheme is great and worked out quite nicely.



















and a view from the outside










Wiring wasn't overly difficult. Since I no longer have door mid bass speakers, I was able to utilize the wire that I ran into the doors over a year ago now (good thing I left it there) and use them for the tweets. It worked out very very well, not just because the judges said so, but to my ears, there is a lot of content at the upper octaves that this tweeter is capable of that most tweeters start rolling off on. Many tweeters I've tried, to give that extra sparkle, a slight boost at 12 and 20k is often necessary. Not with these...they have that tip top extension out of the box. Looks great too!


----------



## papasin

So overall, pretty happy with the updates as I said prior to even this weekend. Parting pics of the trunk under different lighting.


----------



## Bluenote

Richard congratulations on the win, and for your contributions to the art and science of this craft. Yep!


----------



## papasin

Bluenote said:


> Richard congratulations on the win, and for your contributions to the art and science of this craft. Yep!



Thanks Thomas! Hope to see you at the next meet/gtg. Missed you at the last one.


----------



## papasin

Babs said:


> Richard, I need to search back when I have time on that sub box setup.. That's pretty hot diggity. My wittle Dayton HO 10 is still sitting in a box.



Scott, it's a prefab box from supercrewsound.com. I think Zenclosures also makes one, and they may even be related. Here's the one I got.

http://www.supercrewsound.com/06civicsedan.html

I believe you are able to specify the size of the enclosure, so long as it's not larger. For mine, I specifically asked for a single large chamber, and I even dispensed with the terminal cup they include and asked them to keep it as a sealed box. I drilled my own holes for a pair of 10 gauge speaker wire into the box and sealed it. The enclosure is actually quite shallow, and let's me keep quite a bit of trunk space.


----------



## shinjohn

I just keep wondering whether the 12M would fit in those pillars......


----------



## Golden Ear

shinjohn said:


> I just keep wondering whether the 12M would fit in those pillars......


I was thinking the same thing! He says nothing is changing for a while but we all know how long that lasts:laugh:


----------



## papasin

shinjohn said:


> I just keep wondering whether the 12M would fit in those pillars......






Golden Ear said:


> I was thinking the same thing! He says nothing is changing for a while but we all know how long that lasts:laugh:



^ Bad influences!


----------



## ErinH

do it, man. if you're not using coaxial, the scan 12m (or 15m as your counterpart almost uses) would be great options as well.

*nudge, nudge* 





I swear, the more I watch your build log, the more it makes me remember my previous setups. and if you go with the 12m, I'm just gonna fall back to my 2010 install. lol.


----------



## captainobvious

Really nice updates Richard, I'm digging it!

When you redo the trunk beauty panel, would you consider doing the cutout as a rectangle (with rounded edges) from top to bottom over the amps? I think it might make for an even prettier framing of those amps and might make it easier to get both badges in view in a symmetrical fashion.
Great work as always. Those new Alpine tweeters look very interesting.


-Steve


----------



## casey

lol kind of laughing at my email to you last night now Richard  

I think 12ms can be squeezed in there with a little work


----------



## Golden Ear

papasin said:


> ^ Bad influences!


Correction, Good influences


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> ^ Bad influences!


Look who's talking!


----------



## Dodslobber

I just went back to read your original post in this thread, and literally LOL at your goals! I'm sure glad you threw those out the window!


----------



## papasin

captainobvious said:


> When you redo the trunk beauty panel, would you consider doing the cutout as a rectangle (with rounded edges) from top to bottom over the amps? I think it might make for an even prettier framing of those amps and might make it easier to get both badges in view in a symmetrical fashion.


Yeah, I mentioned doing that exact thing to Golden Ear when he stopped by three or four days before state finals. Then I realized, it's only three or four days before state finals, and there were other things I needed to do that would matter more in terms of SQ lol. Maybe in November or December.


----------



## papasin

Dodslobber said:


> I just went back to read your original post in this thread, and literally LOL at your goals! I'm sure glad you threw those out the window!


Yeah, those went out the window by rebuild #2 or #3.


----------



## shinjohn

Golden Ear said:


> Correction, Good influences


x10000

We are merely just trying to get you where you needed to go in the first place.... faster. LOL!

Seriously, the thing I miss most about my prior system was the midrange those 12Ms can put out. Unlike anything else out there. Hands down my favorite midrange driver.

Just do it!


----------



## Babs

Richard, you have no idea how absolutely angry I am that those awesome Alpine pods exist.. All this suffering coulda been avoided. Oh well, I learned a bunch anyway and sanded out a lot of frustration. 









































































^ camera skills... lacking.


----------



## Golden Ear

papasin said:


> Yeah, I mentioned doing that exact thing to Golden Ear when he stopped by three or four days before state finals. Then I realized, it's only three or four days before state finals, and there were other things I needed to do that would matter more in terms of SQ lol. Maybe in November or December.


Truth. We probably could have knocked it out if I could have stayed longer. I'll help out in nov/dec if it works out.


----------



## JSM-FA5

Loving the updates! Honestly reading and seeing all this makes me jealous haha.
So I missed something I'm sure. You have the 4 channels powering the tweeters and mids. Bridged the other amp to power the midbass. What is powering the subs? I only saw two amps.


----------



## papasin

JSM-FA5 said:


> Loving the updates! Honestly reading and seeing all this makes me jealous haha.
> So I missed something I'm sure. You have the 4 channels powering the tweeters and mids. Bridged the other amp to power the midbass. What is powering the subs? I only saw two amps.



Even with the previous setup, I could only fit two amps in the spare tire well (a-class powered the C4CX or fullrangers and Zero3 for the midbass). My sub amp is behind the subs.


----------



## papasin

Not the greatest pic, but this was an in progress pic of wiring things up behind the subs.


----------



## REGULARCAB

I can't believe you have that beauty hidden


----------



## papasin

REGULARCAB said:


> I can't believe you have that beauty hidden



Yeah, I know. With the A-class and Zero3 before in the tire well, I didn't have a good way of displaying those actually. Maybe in a future build.


----------



## Bluenote

I'm loving the new Zapco direction you took, even though the Zero 3 is stunning to look at.


----------



## papasin

Bluenote said:


> I'm loving the new Zapco direction you took, even though the Zero 3 is stunning to look at.



Thanks Thomas. Yes, for my application, the 150.4-LEs work better with the additional channels. Also, I think Zapco's decision to drop the crossovers on this line is a good one IMHO. For SQ enthusiasts, most are using a processor so the crossovers are pretty much unnecessary. Can just be a cause for user error or added complexity in the design that could lead to noise or other issues. Maybe if a monoblock LE comes about, that may sway me to switch.


----------



## Babs

Haven't seen so much of zapco at least that I've paid attention to lately.. Nice to see. I imagine you'd say the sound quality rivals the mosconi's. At the level you're at with either of those, clean output is a given, it then becomes the level of the tune for the particular characteristics of the amps, regardless which.


----------



## Babs

papasin said:


> More info on these Limited Edition 40th Anniversary Zapcos can be found here: http://zapco.com/images/imageready/Product/z/LE.pdf


Off topic, but was reading the link you posted on these amps, and of course it brings a tear.  Wow.. Zapco and Mosconi are kinda the Krell and Levinson of car amps it appears.

But did anyone else notice a familiar Civic guy in one of the trophy photo's on the last page? All I'm gonna say.  Who win's the cookie? Unless I'm blind and it's just someone that looks like him, and yes my eyes are going.


----------



## ErinH

Babs said:


> Off topic, but was reading the link you posted on these amps, and of course it brings a tear.  Wow.. Zapco and Mosconi are kinda the Krell and Levinson of car amps it appears.
> 
> But did anyone else notice a familiar Civic guy in one of the trophy photo's on the last page? All I'm gonna say.  Who win's the cookie? Unless I'm blind and it's just someone that looks like him, and yes my eyes are going.


ha! that was Finals 2012 when I got 5th. Surprised I even got that. It was a VERY bad weekend. Literally 2 days before I left for Finals I blew a midbass and had to get it overnighted the next day, so it showed up at 11am on Friday. I also had a bad DSP and fought it all week. Finally gave up on it and put my p99 back in on Thursday. So I spent practically the _entire _weekend trying to tune the car while everyone else was having fun. I was stressed out... I honestly wouldn't have even competed had I not paid the dues already. Since then my motto has been "no changes a month before". And to always have spare parts on hand. Which is good, because a couple days ago I took out one of my Kefs when I shorted my volume knob out and sent the system in to total disarray.


----------



## Babs

Yikes! Yeah definitely good to have spares.


----------



## Babs

papasin said:


> Scott, it's a prefab box from supercrewsound.com. I think Zenclosures also makes one, and they may even be related. Here's the one I got.
> 
> Honda Civic Sedan 06 - 12 Subwoofer Enclosure
> 
> I believe you are able to specify the size of the enclosure, so long as it's not larger. For mine, I specifically asked for a single large chamber, and I even dispensed with the terminal cup they include and asked them to keep it as a sealed box. I drilled my own holes for a pair of 10 gauge speaker wire into the box and sealed it. The enclosure is actually quite shallow, and let's me keep quite a bit of trunk space.


Holy cow! Who'da thunk it. That's awesome.. I'm starting to think now, maybe a couple Dayton HO 10's side by side maybe, since I have one now. I'll have to get crackin' and model what'd be good for two of them somehow. I know one 10" HO loves a .7 30hz tuned ported box, so I don't know about two.. I imagine all bets are off on running two drivers.


----------



## papasin

*2014 Car Audio Championship*

Steve asked me to share this yesterday, so I figure I'd throw it here on my build log. Apologize for just getting around to doing so since been pretty busy getting ready for the long drive. Anyway, see link below. 

Nashville to Be the SoundOff Capitol - October 18th & 19th - 12 Volt News - Delivering Fresh 12 Volt News Since 199412 Volt News – Delivering Fresh 12 Volt News Since 1994



JayinMI said:


> So, are the Civic and Smart going to Tenessee?





ErinH said:


> looking forward to hearing another civic at finals.


Sorry guys, but the Civic is gonna sit this one out. It was just too difficult logistically. The Smart is definitely going though, and actually, along with 4 other Team WCA cars in SQ. That's 5 SQ cars in 5 different classes, so that's pretty cool considering it's the team's first year. We'll also be bringing our kids MK1...so 6 Team WCA entries! 

I'll be going to support my teammates, and I look forward to seeing folks there that I've only conversed with here on DIYMA.


----------



## ErinH

understandable. I figured as much, though you already know this from my PM. 

You guys be safe on your way here. Hopefully the weather is kind to you.


----------



## papasin

Decided last minute to go to CES this year. While I am at it, stopped by the CES 2015 SQ GTG/COMP and Basshead meet.

Was a long drive and a bit tired, so didn't take as many pics as I would have liked but was able to snap a few.























































Decided to compete while I was there and got some excellent feedback from Steve Stern.


----------



## captainobvious

Nice score. How was CES? Did you make your way to Andy's Audiofrog suite nearby?


----------



## papasin

captainobvious said:


> Nice score. How was CES? Did you make your way to Andy's Audiofrog suite nearby?


Not yet Steve. I made the 8+ hour drive yesterday and barely made it to the comp. I just picked up my badge a few minutes ago. Will hit the show floor today and a few select suites.


----------



## captainobvious

Awesome. Enjoy it my friend!

Definitely take some time to hit Audiofrog in my stead since I can't be there. Andy has the site location posted on their FB page.


----------



## Babs

Fun! Enjoy!
And nice scores!

Some interesting items I've seen are a Bit One HD processor and Andy's got some interesting coaxials that size depending might have 8thcivic potential. Also a slick Sony 1-din and new Parrot 2-din.


----------



## papasin

Babs said:


> Fun! Enjoy!
> And nice scores!
> 
> Some interesting items I've seen are a Bit One HD processor and Andy's got some interesting coaxials that size depending might have 8thcivic potential. Also a slick Sony 1-din and new Parrot 2-din.


Illusion has a new coax too. 

(Photo courtesy of JT but I plan on hitting their suite as well)


----------



## shutmdown

Richard any plans on hitting up the Zapco suite?


----------



## Golden Ear

Congrats on the score!


----------



## papasin

captainobvious said:


> Awesome. Enjoy it my friend!
> 
> Definitely take some time to hit Audiofrog in my stead since I can't be there. Andy has the site location posted on their FB page.





Babs said:


> Andy's got some interesting coaxials that size depending might have 8thcivic potential.


Stopped by yesterday evening at the Palms where the AF suite was located. It was a little bit of a drive, but got some time to chat with Andy and other folks there. Definitely some neat products. Andy had the GB series in home audio enclosures for demos. I'm looking forward to hear them in a car and dialed in for that environment.

The AF coaxial is a 4" and are in the GS line. It's a little different than the offerings from Morel or Illusion, in that these don't allow you to drive the tweeter and the midrange separately.





















shutmdown said:


> Richard any plans on hitting up the Zapco suite?


If there is one, I'm not aware of it. The only display was the one JT posted about in the CES thread as part of the Atrend booth.



Golden Ear said:


> Congrats on the score!


Thanks. Can't wait to hear your new beast.


----------



## captainobvious

Man those AF coaxials look super well built. Shame they don't allow bi-amp.


----------



## papasin

captainobvious said:


> Man those AF coaxials look super well built. Shame they don't allow bi-amp.


I was warned by an AF employee that the GS line may not look exactly like what they had to show as these are just the samples.


----------



## Babs

papasin said:


> Stopped by yesterday evening at the Palms where the AF suite was located. It was a little bit of a drive, but got some time to chat with Andy and other folks there. Definitely some neat products. Andy had the GB series in home audio enclosures for demos. I'm looking forward to hear them in a car and dialed in for that environment.
> 
> The AF coaxial is a 4" and are in the GS line. It's a little different than the offerings from Morel or Illusion, in that these don't allow you to drive the tweeter and the midrange separately.


Thanks Richard. Yes appears to be a single channel connection only, which if done well, would probably be fine if I were to attempt a "Papasin/Bikin A-Pillar" hehe.  The little 4" looks like a snazzy nice speaker with waveguide tweet. Given the tweeter is placed conventionally rather than true 'point source' such as the Illusion, depending on axis mounting, it may not be an issue, and Andy may have encorporated something in the design somehow addressing this.


----------



## papasin

I posted the items below in the CES thread, but thought I would add them here too. Hmmm, maybe some sub upgrades for the Civic.  



papasin said:


> I still have quite a few pics to sort out, but here are some that people haven't posted/talked about...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I understand it, these are from the home audio line that were in Orca's suite. These are upgraded versions of the current Illusion Audio C12XL and C10XL (if IIRC, only the basket is the same but everything else has been enhanced). Had a very good conversation with Alan regarding these and other offerings from Illusion and Mosconi. While not specifically designed for a car, has that stopped many of us before...?


----------



## shutmdown

papasin said:


> If there is one, I'm not aware of it. The only display was the one JT posted about in the CES thread as part of the Atrend booth.


I believe they were also at the Palms in the King Pin suite.


----------



## papasin

shutmdown said:


> I believe they were also at the Palms in the King Pin suite.



Unfortunately, had I known sooner (or if they had been listed in the guidebook), I would have checked out the suite when I stopped by AF. Some of the hotels take a bit to get to each other whether driving or taking a shuttle due to the crowds.

I was able to make my way to the Venetian toward the end to see a pretty impressive home audio setup. That "midbass" sure looks familiar.


----------



## gregerst22

Awesome. sounds like AF is another solid high end offering.


----------



## papasin

I decided to head south to Phoenix after CES before heading home to participate in the triple pointer below:

2015 MECA Southwest Regional Soundfest

Was an excellent turn out with participation from AZ, CA, and NM. I was able to catch up with a couple old friends and make many new ones. I was fortunate to take home a few things since there were a few really good cars both in my class and at the whole show.










A fairly good start to 2015, and I received excellent feedback and have a few tweaks in mind.


----------



## Babs

Wow Congrats Richard, once again!


----------



## rton20s

Congratulations on the new hardware!


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> Congratulations on the new hardware!


Wait, what, you been spying on the new and unreleased setup already??  :surprised: 

But in all seriousness, thanks. It's a little better than when you heard it last, and I really am liking how it sounds at the moment and probably the best it's been...but I have some ideas which may lead to some relatively big changes, again. :worried: :blush:


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> ...but I have some ideas which may lead to some relatively big changes, again. :worried: :blush:


Somehow, I am just not surprised. 

I'm hoping to find some time and motivation myself to get some work done on mine. :worried:


----------



## DLO13

MrsPapasin said:


> You "GUYS" clearly don't get it. Chicks can "rib" too. . We're just much more subtle about it.
> 
> I have no loyalties to Nickelodeon. I'm an equal opportunity buyer of Crocs.  How do you like these "GUYS"?


Karisa and i enjoyed this way too much.


----------



## ECLIPSEsqfan

Congratulations Richard!


----------



## papasin

ECLIPSEsqfan said:


> Congratulations Richard!



Thanks Mario!


----------



## astrochex

papasin said:


> A fairly good start to 2015, and I received excellent feedback and have a few tweaks in mind.


Fairly good start? You must be part British with a knack for understatement. Congrats!!


----------



## plushterry

I just read through pretty much this whole thread. Good work Papasin you've really got the hang of this stuff! Congratulations on all your wins!


----------



## papasin

astrochex said:


> Fairly good start? You must be part British with a knack for understatement. Congrats!!


Thanks Paul! No British in me...I think. 



plushterry said:


> I just read through pretty much this whole thread. Good work Papasin you've really got the hang of this stuff! Congratulations on all your wins!


Thank you! The start of this thread to where it is certainly has evolved, including footwear choices, fast food discussions, to window covering debates. I hope you found it helpful, and if not at least mildly entertaining.  

I can't say enough though about how much I've learned from countless folks, many here on this very forum. While it may seem that I have "got the hang of this stuff", I'll be the first to admit that there is still so much to learn, and that's what keeps this hobby interesting for me.


----------



## plushterry

No sir, thank you for sharing.

Like you say, it's the learning that keeps it fun! Love it.


----------



## papasin

Nothing to update on the build or install (at least not yet  ). Just wanted to add a couple pics of the car after a nice bath, clay treatment, wax/polish/sealant. Good to see the luster is as good as the day I bought it and am pleased how she's held up in the last 6+ years. Some pics.


----------



## JayinMI

BTW, are you up to 6 wins now? lol

Car looks great. You're the second person I've seen who has done a full detail. I really ought to (and redo the vinyl on my roof) before the GTG, but I'll probably just run it through the car wash.

Jay


----------



## HardCoreDore

Car looks good. What kind of wax did you use @Papasin ? I clayed, and waxed back in the fall. I'm probably just going to wax this time.


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> BTW, are you up to 6 wins now? lol
> 
> Car looks great. You're the second person I've seen who has done a full detail. I really ought to (and redo the vinyl on my roof) before the GTG, but I'll probably just run it through the car wash.
> 
> Jay


Lol Jay, not for this season. I judged the first event this year in CA and will be running one next month, so just trying to do a little competing when I can. This year, I've been trying to have as much fun when I can and get involved in the community and this hobby. On the competition side, I've been fortunate so far, but know everyone is getting better. At the last show it was really close so I know everyone is working hard.

As for my car's detail, it was probably the first time I really spent the effort, but I'm nowhere as experienced as casey (I assume it's his car you're referring to). I don't have anywhere as many steps in my process. 



HardCoreDore said:


> Car looks good. What kind of wax did you use @Papasin ?


Thanks. Nothing fancy.

Amazon.com: Meguiar's G12718 NXT Generation Tech Wax 2.0 - 18 oz.: Automotive


----------



## HardCoreDore

The NXT 2.0 is a great wax. I like it over that expensive Zaino's crap any day b/c it's so easy to apply and remove. I think they are discontinuing it though. I haven't been able to find it in stores lately. Their new top line wax is the Ultimate. I've heard it lasts longer but is harder to apply and remove.


----------



## DLO13

HardCoreDore said:


> The NXT 2.0 is a great wax. I like it over that expensive Zaino's crap any day b/c it's so easy to apply and remove. I think they are discontinuing it though. I haven't been able to find it in stores lately. Their new top line wax is the Ultimate. I've heard it lasts longer but is harder to apply and remove.


Nope. I used it before i got some of my chemical guys stuff and it is easy.


----------



## casey

Looks great! I love that color.

Don't talk crap! My paint was prob in worse shape, hence maybe one extra step!

Really can't go wrong with a clay, Polish and sealant


----------



## papasin

casey said:


> Don't talk crap! My paint was prob in worse shape, hence maybe one extra step!



I think you misunderstand lol. Detailing a car I'd say on a scale of 1-10, 10 being pretty experienced I imagine you're probably on the 8-9 level and I'd put myself at 2-3 lol. In the 6+ years this was probably it's first detail as I have been neglecting it, not to mention I probably didn't do it right. I think I just got lucky.


----------



## casey

papasin said:


> I think you misunderstand lol. Detailing a car I'd say on a scale of 1-10, 10 being pretty experienced I imagine you're probably on the 8-9 level and I'd put myself at 2-3 lol. In the 6+ years this was probably it's first detail as I have been neglecting it, not to mention I probably didn't do it right. I think I just got lucky.


lol im just giving you a hard time  you cant take anything i say online seriously. 

It really did come out great though


----------



## DLO13

All i know, The paint on my civic and subi looked WAYYY better than my Prius does... and its 2 years old. 

Honda paint is great and despite what Richard is saying, I am sure he takes better care of his car than most people  The paint looks wet and ready for some more first place finishes. 

Now that you finished the civic, take care of all that hardware in your entry way.


----------



## papasin

casey said:


> lol im just giving you a hard time  you cant take anything i say online seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> It really did come out great though



What would be great is if you're ever in the area, you can drop by and give me some tips. I honestly don't know much about this stuff. I'm always looking to improve. You can come take a listen too. In that area, it's also evolving. 



DLO13 said:


> despite what Richard is saying, I am sure he takes better care of his car than most people  The paint looks wet and ready for some more first place finishes.
> 
> Now that you finished the civic, take care of all that hardware in your entry way.



Giving me too much credit. Really, it's dumb luck, honest. As far as I can recall, this is probably only the second (maybe third) this car has ever gotten a clay treatment. I've also been pretty bad at waxing (maybe 4 or 5 times total).

Finished the civic?? You know better than that. Don't think it's ever finished.


----------



## DLO13

papasin said:


> Finished the civic?? You know better than that. Don't think it's ever finished.


I meant the detail!


----------



## papasin

Guess it's time for a little update........



shinjohn said:


> I just keep wondering whether the 12M would fit in those pillars......





Golden Ear said:


> I was thinking the same thing! He says nothing is changing for a while but we all know how long that lasts:laugh:





ErinH said:


> do it, man. if you're not using coaxial, the scan 12m (or 15m as your counterpart almost uses) would be great options as well.
> 
> *nudge, nudge*





casey said:


> lol kind of laughing at my email to you last night now Richard
> 
> I think 12ms can be squeezed in there with a little work


^ I blame all of you bad influences!   




























In all seriousness, I've actually been testing these off and on since about mid March. I finally decided to bite the bullet. They've been in the pillars permanently for over a month and a few folks got to listen to them during the Torrance GTG/comp in May. Last week, MrsPapasin helped me retune it for the show last Saturday in Fresno and we think it sounded pretty darn good. Glad Brian had a good impression. 










I'd like to thank Jim though for lending us his ears after the Fresno show. He made a couple minor tweaks, and I think it's better than ever. So like my better half, wish me luck this Saturday. It should be a great show. Hope to see some of you there. Anaheim, here we come. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...gtg-angel-stadium-anaheim-ca-6-20-2015-a.html


----------



## rton20s

You know, I didn't notice it on Saturday, but I am disappointed that the orientation of the mounting screws on the mids don't match that of the tweeters.  

I have to give you a hard time about something. The car seriously looks and sounds incredible. Sitting in Papasin's car and listening on Saturday was both very discouraging and motivating at the same time. Just when I think my install is finally coming along, I get to listen to his car back to back with my own. While I still think my car is the best it has ever sounded, hearing a car like his really reveals just how much farther you can take it. 

The Civic is capable of getting incredibly loud, without ever breaking a sweat. I don't know anyone but the most hardcore bassheads that wouldn't be happy with the volume Richard's car achieves. The best part though, is that it does so without losing composure. You don't hear any rattles from the car, you don't hear any distortion from the drivers, the stage doesn't get fat or start to wander. It just gets louder, and louder and louder and the focus and clarity never wane. 

Well done, and I look forward to hearing Jim's subtle adjustments. Hopefully someone will come out of the woodwork so you can have some competition in ModEx soon!


----------



## Babs

Stop or I'm gonna book a flight!

Well see this is why I don't have a build log. I was really excited about these a few minutes ago, then saw this thread update. LOL











Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> You know, I didn't notice it on Saturday, but I am disappointed that the orientation of the mounting screws on the mids don't match that of the tweeters.


Lol. There's a reason for that actually, and I had to make a choice whether I wanted to make them the same orientation or keep the terminal leads on the bottom portion and thus keeping most of the weight on the lower part of the driver. I guess I opted for the latter, but I debated for quite some time which route to go. 



rton20s said:


> The car seriously looks and sounds incredible. Sitting in Papasin's car and listening on Saturday was both very discouraging and motivating at the same time. Just when I think my install is finally coming along, I get to listen to his car back to back with my own. While I still think my car is the best it has ever sounded, hearing a car like his really reveals just how much farther you can take it.
> 
> The Civic is capable of getting incredibly loud, without ever breaking a sweat. I don't know anyone but the most hardcore bassheads that wouldn't be happy with the volume Richard's car achieves. The best part though, is that it does so without losing composure. You don't hear any rattles from the car, you don't hear any distortion from the drivers, the stage doesn't get fat or start to wander. It just gets louder, and louder and louder and the focus and clarity never wane.
> 
> Well done, and I look forward to hearing Jim's subtle adjustments. Hopefully someone will come out of the woodwork so you can have some competition in ModEx soon!


Thanks for the kind words Justin! :surprised:  lol

In all seriousness though, the previous iterations were also quite good but it has definitely been evolutionary and this version is pretty darn solid.



Babs said:


> Stop or I'm gonna book a flight!
> 
> Well see this is why I don't have a build log. I was really excited about these a few minutes ago, then saw this thread update. LOL


Come on out Scott. Anaheim will have quite a few impressive cars to listen to. 

Be curious to hear your impressions on the 10F. The Illusion C4 and the Scan 12m have nearly identical cone area, so I didn't want to go down and the fit in the pillars were just too good, so I decided to give it a shot as foreshadowed by a good number of members, and almost as if JT thought ahead with he design.  The 12m literally dropped in and fit perfectly with no modifications to the previous pillars.


----------



## gregerst22

That's pretty sweet that the 12m's dropped right into your existing a-pillars. They're some seriously capable midrange drivers. If you get the chance to try the 18wu for midbass do it they're awesome as well. the midbass is phenomenally clean and distortion free.
Oh and good luck this weekend but I'm sure you'll do well.


----------



## astrochex

Good luck, Richard!


----------



## JSM-FA5

It's hard to believe all the changes you have made. I've been in on this build since the simple ms-8 portion. The progress is phenomenal! Really hope I get to hear it some time.


----------



## james2266

Scanspeak 12m. Richard.... Now we talking. Of all the vehicles I have heard to date the best midrange I have heard (imo of course) is from a vehicle I heard in Florida and it had these exact drivers. I actually purchased a pair and that was the intention for my midrange originally. An accidental slip of the screwdriver killed that idea tho. I am still pissed at myself for that one. Honestly, I have been thinking more and more all the time about making a new set of pillars and my orientation would be virtually identical to your setup. Well, the midrange would be even more on axis in my plans however. Now, I just need to find cash for a new set of these again and of course another set of apillars. The latter of which is probably an even greater challenge for me. 

Anyways, wish I could hear your setup now. Coming to Canada anytime soon? Ya got a place to stay if you decide.


----------



## papasin

gregerst22 said:


> If you get the chance to try the 18wu for midbass do it they're awesome as well. the midbass is phenomenally clean and distortion free.


Appreciate the suggestion on the 18wu, but for my install the JL ZR800 have worked very well and not looking to swap them. They are the set of speakers that have not changed in my car for quite some time (been in there circa April 2013). That's saying something. 



gregerst22 said:


> Oh and good luck this weekend but I'm sure you'll do well.





astrochex said:


> Good luck, Richard!


Thank you both.



JSM-FA5 said:


> Really hope I get to hear it some time.





james2266 said:


> Anyways, wish I could hear your setup now.


You both are always welcome to come take a listen. Just book a flight like Scott is.


----------



## Babs

papasin said:


> Come on out Scott. Anaheim will have quite a few impressive cars to listen to.


Man that would be a blast! Wish I could.



papasin said:


> Be curious to hear your impressions on the 10F. The Illusion C4 and the Scan 12m have nearly identical cone area, so I didn't want to go down and the fit in the pillars were just too good, so I decided to give it a shot as foreshadowed by a good number of members, and almost as if JT thought ahead with he design.  The 12m literally dropped in and fit perfectly with no modifications to the previous pillars.


I have heard the combo in CaptainObvious's wife's car in a conventional off-axis pillar install. I found it to be a terrific combination. It would certainly not leave you wanting for detail and air. Spot on pin-point image in that particular build. The D3004 is easily more than enough tweeter for the 10F, and the smaller D2004 would also be a good fit. The 10F seems to be a gem among 4" mids at it's price-point, so looking forward to it. I do think I really lucked out with how the humble 2-way SB setup turned out, so I'm at a cross-roads, thinking of leaving well enough alone in the Civic, and saving the scans for the truck. Can't decide. That would be certainly easier than tearing out the Civic again, but suffering for sonic bliss as you know far more than I, has it's rewards.


----------



## mrpeabody

Thanks a bunch for the demo last weekend. Car sounded fantastic. One of my favorites so far. I concur with Dustin's comments on the volume and composure. Great stuff.

Good luck this weekend. Wish I could go but have to work.


----------



## papasin

mrpeabody said:


> Thanks a bunch for the demo last weekend. Car sounded fantastic. One of my favorites so far. I concur with Dustin's comments on the volume and composure. Great stuff.


You're very welcome and glad you enjoyed it. Definitely has evolved over the years, hasn't it?


----------



## shinjohn

Richard, big props to you, Linda, Jim and JT! I gotta say after listening to it today, it's quite a bit better than it has ever been. The Scan mids (and incredible fabrication work by JT) plus the new tuning by you, Linda, and Jim is phenomenal. Such a fun system to listen too. The midrange has such presence and body; detail, warmth, purity. Such an engaging system to listen to, and it's just technically amazing. Best of luck this weekend, though I don't think you need any!


----------



## papasin

shinjohn said:


> Richard, big props to you, Linda, Jim and JT! I gotta say after listening to it today, it's quite a bit better than it has ever been. The Scan mids (and incredible fabrication work by JT) plus the new tuning by you, Linda, and Jim is phenomenal. Such a fun system to listen too. The midrange has such presence and body; detail, warmth, purity. Such an engaging system to listen to, and it's just technically amazing. Best of luck this weekend, though I don't think you need any!



Thanks for swinging by and taking a listen. As usual, really enjoyed the company and really do think you would be a great SQ judge as I have said a few times now since you have great ears and a knack for really dissecting a system and providing critical feedback. This truly has been a team effort, and thanks for the props. But at the end of the day, we both know what your favorite car is.


----------



## sqnut

Just curious, have you tried putting the tweeters further out past the mids, your A pillar is really good for placement. If you have tried that, whats the difference between them further out and closer in like they are? Sorry about the derail


----------



## tjframe

Your setup is bad ass. Too bad we can't all share the experience of hearing award winning installs in their full glory over the internet. 

I love the look of those tweeter pods. I think something like that would fit in well with my FX35. 

Right now I have 3.5's in the dash so no need for extensive A-pillar fabrication, but somehow the treble feels lacking to me. Not sure if the missing zing I'm looking for is just my imagination since I know, in the back of my mind, that dedicated tweeters are missing.

I'm supposed to meet with JT soon for the first time, and I guess I'll get his take on the whole thing then.. but as of now I'm really tempted to order those Alpines.


----------



## DLO13

They do look really good! And not just for prefab DIY. 

I know I debated keeping my AP mid and midbass and just adding the Alpines, as they are right there with Scans. They aren't that easy to get, but if you can get them, i recommend them and I don't think you will regret it. 

Prior to the Scan mid upgrade, this was by far my favorite car to listen to and absolutely what I modeled my build after. 

I had previously heard one other car that was considered a "true SQ" car, before hearing JT's Scion. That car didn't impress me, but JT's Scion blew me away and made me wonder what the hell I had been doing in my previous 3 installs. 

When I heard Richard's Civic shortly after, with the C4CX in the pillars, my mind was blown. The pin point focus, wide stage and overall dynamics were something I had previously only heard while auditioning B&W, 15,000 Towers in Magnolia Theater. The car was so engaging and so much fun. 

I heard Linda's Smart shortly after and that thing is Surgical!!! I have never heard ANYTHING like it! I must say though, I still liked Richard's Civic more... Something about the Fun aspect of exactly how i like to listen to my music. 

The next time I heard the civic, it had the Alpines and C4 mids. I didn't get to listen to the street tune, just his competition tune, but the car was much more "Surgical" than previous. I definitely enjoyed the top end more and it didn't take away from the previous focus and precision that the car had with the point source. 

I highly recommend people in other states take a trip out and hear the Civic. I really hope that when my build is complete, I can achieve something similar. 



Can't wait to hear it with the scans!




tjframe said:


> I love the look of those tweeter pods. I think something like that would fit in well with my FX35.
> 
> Right now I have 3.5's in the dash, but somehow it feels lacking to me. Not sure if the missing zing I'm looking for is just my imagination since I know, in the back of my mind, that dedicated tweeters are missing.
> 
> I'm supposed to meet with JT soon for the first time, and I guess I'll get his take on the whole thing then.. but as of now I'm really tempted to order those Alpines.


----------



## papasin

Thanks guys. tjframe, JT definitely knows his stuff, whether car audio, rollercoasters, or go-kart racing.  My car doesn't have sail panels, so why I went with the Alpines but check out xxx_busa's build thread for another example of what JT fabricated for his tweeters in a similar location.

Also, I stop by SoCal often enough. I'll try to remember to PM you when I'm in town if you are interested in taking a listen.


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> Also, I stop by SoCal often enough. I'll try to remember to PM you when I'm in town if you are interested in taking a listen.


Truth. This guy is in SoCal more than some of the SoCal locals.


----------



## tjframe

papasin said:


> Thanks guys. tjframe, JT definitely knows his stuff, whether car audio, rollercoasters, or go-kart racing.  My car doesn't have sail panels, so why I went with the Alpines but check out xxx_busa's build thread for another example of what JT fabricated for his tweeters in a similar location.
> 
> Also, I stop by SoCal often enough. I'll try to remember to PM you when I'm in town if you are interested in taking a listen.


Yea for sure


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> Truth. This guy is in SoCal more than some of the SoCal locals.



I imagine so will you when the kids are ready for the theme parks. 



tjframe said:


> Yea for sure



Might be back down there in August. I'll shoot you a PM.


----------



## james2266

papasin said:


> I imagine so will you when the kids are ready for the theme parks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Might be back down there in August. I'll shoot you a PM.


But sadly, no visits up north


----------



## tjswarbrick

What, Great America isn't good enough for you?

Civic looks great, Richard.
I need to give it a listen now that you have the Scan mids in place. I've always loved those. If I remember right, you put 'em in right after my last visit...


----------



## papasin

james2266 said:


> But sadly, no visits up north


Maybe a trip to Whistler when snow season hits up again, but we'll likely fly up. You have to come down James, easier for you to hear more cars again. 



tjswarbrick said:


> What, Great America isn't good enough for you?
> 
> Civic looks great, Richard.
> I need to give it a listen now that you have the Scan mids in place. I've always loved those. If I remember right, you put 'em in right after my last visit...


Re: Great America, TBH, not really. Same goes for Gilroy Gardens, and a few other local attractions. I moved into this area since the early 80s, and Linda was born in San Jose. For both of us, Magic Mountain trumps Great America by a long shot and we both loved going there when I was going to college at UCLA (a few moons ago now  ). And when "kid-friendly" attractions come into play, Legoland, Knotts,, Disneyland, Universal, etc. are far superior. They all suck though when looking at the checkbook, but I guess you have to pay to play. :surprised:

I guess maybe it's time for another local GTG. I'll check with Linda on a date...summer is quickly going by. Would love to check out your new ride as well Tom, but you gotta put 8s in though...that car is just begging for it.


----------



## james2266

papasin said:


> Maybe a trip to Whistler when snow season hits up again, but we'll likely fly up. You have to come down James, easier for you to hear more cars again.
> 
> 
> 
> Re: Great America, TBH, not really. Same goes for Gilroy Gardens, and a few other local attractions. I moved into this area since the early 80s, and Linda was born in San Jose. For both of us, Magic Mountain trumps Great America by a long shot and we both loved going there when I was going to college at UCLA (a few moons ago now  ). And when "kid-friendly" attractions come into play, Legoland, Knotts,, Disneyland, Universal, etc. are far superior. They all suck though when looking at the checkbook, but I guess you have to pay to play. :surprised:
> 
> I guess maybe it's time for another local GTG. I'll check with Linda on a date...summer is quickly going by. Would love to check out your new ride as well Tom, but you gotta put 8s in though...that car is just begging for it.


Once you go 8 you never go back... :blush: So true tho at least for me. 

Richard, would love to come back down for a visit again someday soon. Wife needs to get working again before we can go anywhere. She wants us to go to Colombia next year however so don't know when we could fit in another trip to your awesome Cali. It is certainly on the to-do list tho.


----------



## tjswarbrick

papasin said:


> Re: Great America, TBH, not really. Same goes for Gilroy Gardens, and a few other local attractions. I moved into this area since the early 80s, and Linda was born in San Jose. For both of us, Magic Mountain trumps Great America by a long shot and we both loved going there when I was going to college at UCLA (a few moons ago now  ). And when "kid-friendly" attractions come into play, Legoland, Knotts,, Disneyland, Universal, etc. are far superior. They all suck though when looking at the checkbook, but I guess you have to pay to play. :surprised:
> 
> I guess maybe it's time for another local GTG. I'll check with Linda on a date...summer is quickly going by. Would love to check out your new ride as well Tom, but you gotta put 8s in though...that car is just begging for it.



I know. I've been going to GA since it opened. Went the 20th for 7 hours with just one daughter and between lunch, getting a swimsuit for the terminally uprepared, and waiting in atrocious lines even though it wasn't that busy I think we got 5 rides in. Big disappointment.
My sister went to MM, KBF, and DL for her high-school trip. My high school did no such thing, and I have yet to make it to Magic Mountain or Knotts. Disney is fun, but too expensive and crowded for my taste.

Luckily I can get that roller-coaster feeling on every highway onramp (and the occasional other place) now!

I got the TM's hoping they'd give me the impact of 8's in a slim 6.5 package (and for less dough than the SQ thin 8's on the market). I guess we'll find out.
We need another GTG though I doubt I'll have a system in the new ride before summer closes. July is pretty much booked for me and August is filling up fast. At least the Hi-Fi system doesn't blow as badly as some!


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> I imagine so will you when the kids are ready for the theme parks.


After Anaheim a couple of weeks ago, my wife swears we are going back soon to take the kids to Disney Land. She was already plotting with the friends we stayed with down there. 

So far, we have only taken our oldest to "Mickey's Neighborhood" aka Downtown Disney. Even that was difficult to pry him away from.


----------



## tjframe

DLO13 said:


> They do look really good! And not just for prefab DIY.
> 
> I know I debated keeping my AP mid and midbass and just adding the Alpines, as they are right there with Scans. They aren't that easy to get, but if you can get them, i recommend them and I don't think you will regret it.



I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the Alpine Dlx-f30ts. 

Did I most likely overpay a bit? yes. 
Do I care? no  
Am I excited to add them to my system? hell yea!


----------



## piyush7243

tjframe said:


> I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the Alpine Dlx-f30ts.
> 
> Did I most likely overpay a bit? yes.
> Do I care? no
> Am I excited to add them to my system? hell yea!


Trust me, you won't be disappointed. I have used them n they are really good.

Sent from my X9076 using Tapatalk


----------



## OMGOrangeSi

papasin said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is my first post on this forum but wanted to share regarding my first SQ install. I’ve worked on a few different cars over the years as a hobby since I was a teen (not for a shop, but mainly just DIY on family members cars). This is my first SQ install on my own car. I wasn’t able to take as many pictures as I probably should have but wanted to share my experience since I have learned a lot from others on this forum. I realize after looking at the other builds that what I’ve done definitely is not up to par with some of the top-notch work by others, but I had to start somewhere ☺.
> 
> Anyway, onto some of my goals:
> 
> 1. Achieve a decent level of sound quality. This is my daily driver and I don’t intend to enter any competitions.
> 2. Stealth is priority, show not at all.
> 3. Utilize the stock navigation head unit that came with the car. I paid for it after all and might as well utilize it. Had I to do it over again, would have probably gone aftermarket as I did with our other cars.
> 4. Minimize loss of trunk space and retain the spare tire and have the ability to access it.
> 5. Re-use speakers from a previous car.
> 
> I’ll get started with some pics of the car:


Bruh, I have the same exact car! I currently have Pioneer TS G1644R 's all around from the previous owner. And The stock tweeters were disconnected/removed? I recently, won a 12" sub at HIN 2015 in San Pedro, CA so I'm looking to get a new amp for the current speakers & another amp for the sub. Finally, I'll build my own ported sub enclosure, and upgrade the Pioneers to Rockford Forsgate, maybe.

But great write up man. :cwm15:


----------



## papasin

OMGOrangeSi said:


> Bruh, I have the same exact car! I currently have Pioneer TS G1644R 's all around from the previous owner. And The stock tweeters were disconnected/removed? I recently, won a 12" sub at HIN 2015 in San Pedro, CA so I'm looking to get a new amp for the current speakers & another amp for the sub. Finally, I'll build my own ported sub enclosure, and upgrade the Pioneers to Rockford Forsgate, maybe.
> 
> 
> 
> But great write up man. :cwm15:



Cool! There's actually another ROP sedan where I work.  I haven't made many changes since my last update, although I'm experimenting on a couple things. I'm down in SoCal often enough and would be cool to meet up.


----------



## OMGOrangeSi

papasin said:


> Cool! There's actually another ROP sedan where I work.  I haven't made many changes since my last update, although I'm experimenting on a couple things. I'm down in SoCal often enough and would be cool to meet up.


Indeed. There's so many car shows, meets, and other events down here. I've gone to several of them this summer. More than i usually do. I went hams this year.

Next year I'm just going to go to a few. Eibach Honda meet, Formula Drift, Long Beach, & SPOCOM Anaheim. The wife likes SPOCOM cause of all the dance crews that perform.

You should come to the Eibach meet next year.


----------



## JSM-FA5

papasin said:


> Cool! There's actually another ROP sedan where I work.  I haven't made many changes since my last update, although I'm experimenting on a couple things. I'm down in SoCal often enough and would be cool to meet up.


Working on a couple things huh? Any idea when we might see a change up?


----------



## bertholomey

JSM-FA5 said:


> Working on a couple things huh? Any idea when we might see a change up?



Or possibly hear a change up 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## papasin

JSM-FA5 said:


> Working on a couple things huh? Any idea when we might see a change up?






bertholomey said:


> Or possibly hear a change up
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Here's a hint.


----------



## shinjohn

Wait, where's the pictures of the gear it's replacing?


----------



## papasin

shinjohn said:


> Wait, where's the pictures of the gear it's replacing?



Who said anything about replacing? Zapco LEs aren't going anywhere.


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> Who said anything about replacing? Zapco LEs aren't going anywhere.


Come on now Richard... We all know you're going to one up the SiS guys and put 12 Picos in the Civic.


----------



## Babs

papasin said:


> Here's a hint.


 That thing is tiny! I want 5 of em!


----------



## OMGOrangeSi

What if I can't get my hands on Mercman's custom harness? Would JL Audio CL441dsp CleanSweep be a good substitute? 

If so, I don't see where the factory harness from the HU would plug into... I want to capture that Balance separate inputs that the factory HU puts out.


----------



## papasin

OMGOrangeSi said:


> What if I can't get my hands on Mercman's custom harness? Would JL Audio CL441dsp CleanSweep be a good substitute?
> 
> 
> 
> If so, I don't see where the factory harness from the HU would plug into... I want to capture that Balance separate inputs that the factory HU puts out.



Do you have a sedan or a coupe?


----------



## OMGOrangeSi

papasin said:


> Do you have a sedan or a coupe?


I have the same exact model as yours. 2009 Civic Si Sedan (FA5)


----------



## papasin

OMGOrangeSi said:


> What if I can't get my hands on Mercman's custom harness? Would JL Audio CL441dsp CleanSweep be a good substitute?
> 
> 
> 
> If so, I don't see where the factory harness from the HU would plug into... I want to capture that Balance separate inputs that the factory HU puts out.



Look under the driver's seat. You should find the factory amp there. If you can't find a Mercman harness, you should be able to tap into the signal wire(s) going into the factory amp and effectively build your own harness. I don't see a reason to use a Cleansweep, since the signal coming from the OEM HU is flat and all you need to do is intercept the signal before the OEM HU and feed those into either a DSP that accept balanced inputs or an amp that does the same.


----------



## OMGOrangeSi

papasin said:


> Look under the driver's seat. You should find the factory amp there. If you can't find a Mercman harness, you should be able to tap into the signal wire(s) going into the factory amp and effectively build your own harness. I don't see a reason to use a Cleansweep, since the signal coming from the OEM HU is flat and all you need to do is intercept the signal before the OEM HU and feed those into either a DSP that accept balanced inputs or an amp that does the same.


Ok, so just tap into the wires coming from the factory HU, throw out the crappy OEM amp, and connect new amp into an amp that accepts balanced inputs. Got it. Where go i go to start to construct my own harness? (I took electronics (radio/TV repair) in highschool, so I'm clueless.) Hopefully Mercman will respond to my msg on the 8thgen forum, and maybe he can tell me where he gets his supplies.

Thanks in advance...


----------



## JayinMI

.1 pts behind Kirk Proffit. Pretty good, Richard. Pretty good. lol

Hope you guys make your flight on time!

Jay


----------



## MrsPapasin

JayinMI said:


> .1 pts behind Kirk Proffit. Pretty good, Richard. Pretty good. lol
> 
> 
> 
> Hope you guys make your flight on time!
> 
> 
> 
> Jay



Such a huge accomplishment! I'm so proud of you, Richard!

Jay, it was so nice to see you again and glad I got to listen to your car!


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> .1 pts behind Kirk Proffit. Pretty good, Richard. Pretty good. lol
> 
> Hope you guys make your flight on time!
> 
> Jay





MrsPapasin said:


> Such a huge accomplishment! I'm so proud of you, Richard!
> 
> Jay, it was so nice to see you again and glad I got to listen to your car!


Thank you both. Jay, we actually missed our flight, but Linda was able to make some adjustments and we got home a little after 2am last night.

Regardless of the finish, and I told quite a few folks this during the weekend even before even getting the results, I'm very very happy with the setup right now and how everything works and sounds. I won't be making any changes for some time. I know, famous last words, but I do mean it. I'll be focusing on other things and working on other projects. Should be fun.


----------



## JayinMI

Thanks, Linda! I appreciate the feedback. I'll turn my midbasses back down to where I had them. 

I had a great time. Enjoy Hawaii, oh, wait...it's work. TRY to enjoy it? lol

Jay


----------



## Babs

OMGOrangeSi said:


> What if I can't get my hands on Mercman's custom harness? Would JL Audio CL441dsp CleanSweep be a good substitute?
> 
> If so, I don't see where the factory harness from the HU would plug into... I want to capture that Balance separate inputs that the factory HU puts out.





OMGOrangeSi said:


> I have the same exact model as yours. 2009 Civic Si Sedan (FA5)





OMGOrangeSi said:


> Ok, so just tap into the wires coming from the factory HU, throw out the crappy OEM amp, and connect new amp into an amp that accepts balanced inputs. Got it. Where go i go to start to construct my own harness? (I took electronics (radio/TV repair) in highschool, so I'm clueless.) Hopefully Mercman will respond to my msg on the 8thgen forum, and maybe he can tell me where he gets his supplies.
> 
> Thanks in advance...


Just so happens...

























Sitting on my kitchen counter right now in fact.\
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/170330-mercman-harness-8th-civic-premium-head-unit-outputs.html

Someone else was looking to buy it, but he's not entirely sure it'll work in his Honda (Accord). I used it in my 08 Si Sedan. Had it squirreled away for quite some time just in case.

I could ask the other fellow if he's ok giving it up since we don't know if it'll fit.

Sorry Richard, un-hijacking now. 
Congrats again by the way!


----------



## captainobvious

FINALLY got the opportunity to hear this car. Richard- The civic is truly exceptional. A lovely installation and a lovely tune. I was highly impressed.
I would agree with you- don't change anything! I feel fortunate to have made the podium with you.


----------



## bertholomey

To follow on with this statement......

I also finally had the opportunity to listen to the Civic - truly exceptional. I really enjoyed the demo! Congrats on your accomplishments!


----------



## JayinMI

Well, when you have 2 8's and 2 twelves, what do you expect? lol

I also got to hear it, so glad you guys brought both cars.
I've wanted to he ar it for some time.

Jay


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> I'll be focusing on other things and working on other projects. Should be fun.


Are you sure you'll have enough other projects to keep you occupied? 

Congratulations again. I look forward to hearing this latest iteration. If it lasts until I get to see the car again.


----------



## captainobvious

Figured you and Mrs. Papasin would like this one.

World Champion for Meca kids


----------



## bertholomey

captainobvious said:


> Figured you and Mrs. Papasin would like this one.
> 
> World Champion for Meca kids


Dude....you didn't blacken out that license plate


----------



## Kazuhiro

captainobvious said:


> I would agree with you- don't change anything! .


And so went enter...endgame


----------



## captainobvious

bertholomey said:


> Dude....you didn't blacken out that license plate



:laugh:

My bad


----------



## bertholomey

captainobvious said:


> :laugh:
> 
> My bad



J/K (for some reason I have a real aversion to lol, reason I used that smiley instead). I don't think that vehicle is street legal  - just giving you a hard time.


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> I look forward to hearing this latest iteration. If it lasts until I get to see the car again.


Too late. Time for some upgrades...

New power planned:

















Should be ready for you when you put on your judge hat!


----------



## erikson

Lol

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Beckerson1

This came to mind


----------



## Golden Ear

Your cars level of sq is going to go thru the roof! Your stage is going to be so much deeper and wider just by switching to those amps. Hahahaha


Sent from my mind using telekinesis


----------



## Kazuhiro

I really hope at least someone here does a high end install with those, just to trigger everyone.


----------



## teldzc1

What amps are those? Don't see them on their website.


----------



## Babs

teldzc1 said:


> What amps are those? Don't see them on their website.


^ Should we tell him?

Naaaaahhhh


----------



## piyush7243

teldzc1 said:


> What amps are those? Don't see them on their website.


Look closely to check the name . you will know the Amps  



Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## HardCoreDore

teldzc1 said:


> What amps are those? Don't see them on their website.


They are Power Acoustic amps that completely stole the look of the high end Mosconis. They are garbage. No one here is considering using them.


----------



## Babs

HardCoreDore said:


> They are Power Acoustic amps that completely stole the look of the high end Mosconis. They are garbage. No one here is considering using them.




What's scary is how many they'll probably sell.


----------



## slade1274

HardCoreDore said:


> They are Power Acoustic amps that completely stole the look of the high end Mosconis. They are garbage. No one here is considering using them.


How do you know if the're garbage? Have you tried them to see if they induce any coloration or noise?


----------



## teldzc1

Lolz! I read the power acoustic piece and for some reason I just thought it was like the next level Mosconi. Nice April Fools there!


----------



## HardCoreDore

slade1274 said:


> How do you know if the're garbage? Have you tried them to see if they induce any coloration or noise?


Trust me. He's ****ing with us. April Fools...


----------



## slade1274

HardCoreDore said:


> Trust me. He's ****ing with us. April Fools...


I get Richard is having his fun day, I was questioning your "garbage" claim as it may impact a budget minded individual that may find them quite agreable. But, I digress- no need to muck up his build thread with another amplifier debate.


----------



## HardCoreDore

slade1274 said:


> I get Richard is having his fun day, I was questioning your "garbage" claim as it may impact a budget minded individual that may find them quite agreable. But, I digress- no need to muck up his build thread with another amplifier debate.


They are from Epsilon right? Epsilon that decided that they wanted to make some decent mid-grade SQ amps & then abandoned ship almost immediately? I can have my opinion, & my opinion is screw Epsilon!


----------



## papasin

I'm glad everyone (except David) knows what day it is. 

No worries Ryan, doesn't matter to me, debate away if you guys like. It doesn't bother me. 

For those that may have missed it, I did take my run with Epsilon amps on this build already (back on post 57 or along those lines). It worked pretty well. I had to keep the gains pretty low to avoid floor noise, but with how much power was available, I was able to get away with it.

The Zapco amps aren't going anywhere...been installed for over a year and a half now approaching two. Subs almost three, H800 and midbasses over three now.

I did make a change to the build though right before finals. I'll wait to post on that until at least after today....since perhaps nobody would believe me if I talked about it now.


----------



## Kazuhiro

Epsilon have a bad rep but i cant help liking what has been the most reliable ss ref amp to date haha


----------



## HardCoreDore

Kazuhiro said:


> Epsilon have a bad rep but i cant help liking what has been the most reliable ss ref amp to date haha


That's my biggest problem with them. Those amps were great. But they weren't willing to market them properly. Then they just pulled the plug and went back to being mediocre. 

There's a gigantic thread about this very topic on this forum. There were even several posts from one of their corporate apologists aka employees. 

Regardless, as I said earlier it was officially a joke. Carry on...


----------



## rton20s

Richard, if you make the switch to those new amps, you may very well end up with the highest scoring car in MECA history!


----------



## quality_sound

Kazuhiro said:


> Epsilon have a bad rep but i cant help liking what has been the most reliable ss ref amp to date haha




That's because they were based on the last REAL SoundStreams, the original Rubicons.


----------



## champion

Nice build log. Keep it up!


----------



## b2okane

great set up and build log.. looking forward for updates


----------



## lucas569

nice build, is that a ZEnclosure sub box?


----------



## papasin

lucas569 said:


> nice build, is that a ZEnclosure sub box?



I got mine from supercrewsound but believe they are similar.


----------



## Babs

papasin said:


> I got mine from supercrewsound but believe they are similar.



Same I think. I had talked to that guy once I believe. If memory serves correctly he makes them for the other company. 

I'm going a slightly different route if I can ever get it done.











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

Nice work!!!


----------



## Mashburn

Stumbled back across this thread since I have a new account. Bringing it back from the grave it looks like! Has anything changed in the car, or do you still have the vehicle?


----------



## nadams5755

Mashburn said:


> Stumbled back across this thread since I have a new account. Bringing it back from the grave it looks like! Has anything changed in the car, or do you still have the vehicle?


yeah, he's still got it. i heard it today.


----------



## papasin

Mashburn said:


> Has anything changed in the car



Changed the amps.










Retuned it a bit. Car still sounds ok.


----------



## JCsAudio

papasin said:


> Changed the amps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Retuned it a bit. Car still sounds ok.


Curious to know if you think there is a perceptible difference with the new amps? My opinion based on my own extensive amplifier testing is no unless you went up significantly in power or changed the tune.


----------



## papasin

V8toilet said:


> Curious to know if you think there is a perceptible difference with the new amps? My opinion based on my own extensive amplifier testing is no unless you went up significantly in power or changed the tune.



Definitely. I tried to gain match each channel of the two newer amps with each of the two older ones (8 channels total as each channel has independent gain controls). Upon doing so they were not sonically the same, and hence why I indicated I had to adjust the tune. The newer amps also have a lower noise floor, but also require the gains to be opened up a bit more than the previous ones.


----------



## JCsAudio

Awesome! I tried to look up those Alpine tweeters you have, but it seems they are not available anymore. I was just curious about their cost and availability. You have such a simple implantation with the tweeter pods, which is what I would like to try in my CX5. No amount of EQ makes up for having the tweeters in the right place in my opinion; something I noticed with my Ford and the tweeters in the A pillars vs my CX5 with the tweeters in the dash corners. 

All you need now is a signature displaying all that beautiful equipment you have. Nice install and love what you did with it. Keep up the great work!


----------



## papasin

V8toilet said:


> Awesome! I tried to look up those Alpine tweeters you have, but it seems they are not available anymore. I was just curious about their cost and availability. You have such a simple implantation with the tweeter pods, which is what I would like to try in my CX5. No amount of EQ makes up for having the tweeters in the right place in my opinion; something I noticed with my Ford and the tweeters in the A pillars vs my CX5 with the tweeters in the dash corners.
> 
> 
> 
> All you need now is a signature displaying all that beautiful equipment you have. Nice install and love what you did with it. Keep up the great work!



You could go with pods such as these perhaps:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Scan-Speak...-Speak-Illuminator-R3004-602000-/273541918490

and some Scanspeak R3004 or D3004s

As for my sig, I kept the equipment in this car constant for probably 3+ years. But since I haven’t been driving it that much recently since we have quite a few other cars now, it may turn into a project car and now I can swap some things out.


----------



## captainobvious

papasin said:


> Definitely. I tried to gain match each channel of the two newer amps with each of the two older ones (8 channels total as each channel has independent gain controls). Upon doing so they were not sonically the same, and hence why I indicated I had to adjust the tune. The newer amps also have a lower noise floor, but also require the gains to be opened up a bit more than the previous ones.



I agree. Gain matched, the system still sounded different in a car I did with them as well. This newer revision is a nice step forward in my opinion. Lower noise floor and very smooth sound to them.
Are you and Linda done with competing at finals? Considering coming back out at some point? I haven't seen/heard either of your cars in several years 




cheers


----------



## papasin

captainobvious said:


> Are you and Linda done with competing at finals? Considering coming back out at some point? I haven't seen/heard either of your cars in several years



Hey Steve,

You can always travel west and hear our cars...in addition to the Civic and Smart, we have quite a few others as well now with systems in it that sound ok. 

As for competing at Finals, I would never say “done” but unlikely in the near future. We enjoyed competing, but also enjoy what we are doing now in both hosting west coast events and judging Finals. Seeing how it has also grown (nearly double), as you know MECA Finals now requires at least two sets of three judges for both upper and lower. It works out quite well with one of us to be one of the three for one half and the other for the other half.


----------



## Mashburn

That’s awesome man! I didn’t realize you were doing all that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## papasin

Mashburn said:


> That’s awesome man! I didn’t realize you were doing all that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yeah, even went to SE Asia (Indonesia and Philippines) a few years ago to train and certify judges there, and judge an event with nearly 30 cars in one day.


----------



## OMGOrangeSi

I may have bought the wrong equipment for my application. I need advice... I wanted to retain my Honda Premium HU because the Navigation still works quite well, and I like my steering wheel controls. 

I thought that the Audio Control LC7i could take my HU signal and send it to any aftermarket amplifier. Turns out that the LC7i needs the factory amplifier's signal to clean up and retain the bass. That's it. 

I know that the HU produces a clean balanced differencial signal, and I've been Googling solutions, and I've came to two solutions:

1) I'm in contact with Mercman and his services of making a harness. So, i would either use his custom harness, and find an Amplifier that accepts balanced differential inputs. Problem is, the only amps that advertise that accept them are JL Audio, and they cost over $500 for the 5 channel. (Only want 5 ch)

2) Buy an aftermarket HU that might not be functional as my current HU, and use it with the LC7i and Alpine MRV-V500 5 channel amp that I have.

What does anyone suggest I do? Just want guidance....


----------



## JayinMI

Responses in body, bold.




OMGOrangeSi said:


> I may have bought the wrong equipment for my application. I need advice... I wanted to retain my Honda Premium HU because the Navigation still works quite well, and I like my steering wheel controls.
> 
> I thought that the Audio Control LC7i could take my HU signal and send it to any aftermarket amplifier. Turns out that the LC7i needs the factory amplifier's signal to clean up and retain the bass. That's it.
> 
> I know that the HU produces a clean balanced differencial signal, and I've been Googling solutions, and I've came to two solutions:
> 
> 1) I'm in contact with Mercman and his services of making a harness. So, i would either use his custom harness, and find an Amplifier that accepts balanced differential inputs. Problem is, the only amps that advertise that accept them are JL Audio, and they cost over $500 for the 5 channel. (Only want 5 ch)
> 
> *$500 is very reasonable for a quality 5 channel amplifier.*
> 
> 2) Buy an aftermarket HU that might not be functional as my current HU, and use it with the LC7i and Alpine MRV-V500 5 channel amp that I have.
> 
> *You wouldn't need the LC7i with an aftermarket HU.*
> 
> What does anyone suggest I do? Just want guidance....


----------



## papasin

OMGOrangeSi said:


> I may have bought the wrong equipment for my application. I need advice... I wanted to retain my Honda Premium HU because the Navigation still works quite well, and I like my steering wheel controls.
> 
> I thought that the Audio Control LC7i could take my HU signal and send it to any aftermarket amplifier. Turns out that the LC7i needs the factory amplifier's signal to clean up and retain the bass. That's it.
> 
> I know that the HU produces a clean balanced differencial signal, and I've been Googling solutions, and I've came to two solutions:
> 
> 1) I'm in contact with Mercman and his services of making a harness. So, i would either use his custom harness, and find an Amplifier that accepts balanced differential inputs. Problem is, the only amps that advertise that accept them are JL Audio, and they cost over $500 for the 5 channel. (Only want 5 ch)
> 
> 2) Buy an aftermarket HU that might not be functional as my current HU, and use it with the LC7i and Alpine MRV-V500 5 channel amp that I have.
> 
> What does anyone suggest I do? Just want guidance....



I’ve done both options in this car at various stages of my build with success. For option 1 though, I ended up using a DSP that takes in balanced inputs (both MS8 and Alpine H800 accept balanced inputs) and hence the amp didn’t matter.

My preference in this car however is option 2, and I used a PAC unit to maintain steering wheel controls. In addition to track and volume, I am able to use the controls for Bluetooth calling. In my build I added a cd changer (yeah I know, who uses CDs these days let alone multiple) and was even able to map the changer functions (like change disc) to the steering wheel controls. An aftermarket HU would also be able to take advantage of newer features like Apple CarPlay or Android auto and would be able to provide higher quality maps than the OEM HU. Jay is correct that when using an aftermarket HU no need for the LC7i.

In any case, OMGOrangeSi, PM me if you are interested in the PAC module as I have one stashed as a spare.


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## rton20s

papasin said:


> In any case, OMGOrangeSi, PM me if you are interested in the PAC module *as I have one stashed as a spare.*


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