# Thinking about trying Horns



## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)




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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

This is what my dash looks like. Lots of Hard plastic... But tones of depth under the dash, obviously width as well. I could mount them two feet back from the front of the dash... With a plasma cutter and a helluva lot of work I could put a 10-12" mid in the kicks... And 3-18's IB in the rear deck... The only advantage to driving a boat I suppose..lol

So... Long body's, short body's? I already have a kickass set of pillars for the car mid and tweeter in them, but thinking about separating myself from the herd I guess.

Thoughts/suggestions?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The big bodies if you could fit them and if you were serious about doing big midbasses.


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

You do need to have some big,efficient midbasses if you're going w/ horns.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

JoshHefnerX said:


> You do need to have some big,efficient midbasses if you're going w/ horns.


So far from the truth.
Hundreds and hundreds of people have run horns with regular old car audio drivers for decades. the trend toward using PA speakers is fairly new.

There are some definite advantages to using an efficient driver like a PA driver and having more cone area is never a bad thing--but it certainly isnt a requirement.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> So far from the truth.
> Hundreds and hundreds of people have run horns with regular old car audio drivers for decades. the trend toward using PA speakers is fairly new.
> 
> There are some definite advantages to using an efficient driver like a PA driver and having more cone area is never a bad thing--but it certainly isnt a requirement.


I guess it depends on how you interpret "need." You could run horns with just about any driver you want, but the trend toward PA mids is far from new. The Grand National was doing in 25 years ago and lots of guys have done it since. I suppose the trend for traditional companies to start producing and marketing PA mids is fairly new, but they've been in circulation among the die hards for a long time.

While you can pair horns with some normal mids, and hundreds of guys might have done so, I've never seen the point. You have to gain the horns down so hard to level match some low-80s efficiency bloaty mid bass that you lose what is in my mind the entire point of running horns: efficiency. It's not that it can't be done, but it's far from ideal and seems to me, a waste of product for the most part. To each their own.


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## tRidiot (Jun 29, 2006)

JoshHefnerX said:


> You do need to have some big,efficient midbasses if you're going w/ horns.


Agreed, far from the truth. Adequate processing, power and tuning will do the trick.

Let's face it, folks, you can gain the horns down quite a bit. Hell, my ID horns are mated with (8-ohm) Exodus Anarchys in my Tahoe and a number of folks who listened to them in OKC commented that they were impressed with the balance between the two and didn't think they would have mated well at all. The system wasn't tuned in the least, and I'm running a PG Xenon 200.4 bridged on the horns and another bridged on the Anarchys. Just have the horns gained down quite a bit with my Behringer... they even scale well together up to stupid loud volume. 

One of these days I'm going to sit down and really tune the thing, but I think it will probably be once I put my Zapco Z8 processor in, hopefully this spring.

Super-efficient midbasses are probably nice, but not a necessity by any means.

I love my horns almost as much as my wife!  If I could find a way to fit them in the 370, I'd definitely do it, but alas, I can't seem to find a way!


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

I have a Spanish harlenish comp car that I've had for a few years, that's done ok in the lanes... It just doesn't get loud and rock enough for me... Unfortunately things always seem to come up when it comes to finals, or shows for that matter... Wife almost killed in a bike accident, me pissing kidney stones the year after that... 

All of us in Ontario boys have to leave the country to NY at Syracuse customs. I can't just up and leave the country4-5X weekends in the summer, I have my daughter and a family member at home that I need to help care for. 1-2x a year I can, not 5-6.

So, I want to get something in my DD instead of having thousands of dollars worth of equipment doing nothing... I want dynamic, I want loud, the holy **** this is loud factor but I also want nose picking imaging, and tonality like I'm a custom too.

I don't know any other way to achieve that, than running Horns.

I appreciate all the info and ideas guys keep them coming!


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

Ok, I'll revise my statement.. You don't "need" big efficient midbasses. But if you have to turn your horns down 20-30db to match up, you're kinda loosing some of the benefit of having horns..

Josh


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> The big bodies if you could fit them and if you were serious about doing big midbasses.


To do unobtrusive horns in my car would take 50-60 hours I'm guessing if we're talking about cutting into the floor/firewall and doing it properly. I have access to a hoist, but after cutting there's going to be a lot of metal/fibreglass fab work.

But yes, if I commit to putting horns Id want to add as big a woofer as I can. So yes I am committed.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I wouldn't put horns with some mid 80s sensitive speaker...but that's just me.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I'm not saying it can't work or sound good...just it wouldn't suit me. The pro drivers have more impact, dynamics, and output...and a different sound to them- to me.

I just wouldn't want to but 110 dB horns with some 83 dB mids. Just me.


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## silence (Dec 20, 2014)

This might be a stupid question, but it's coming from a place of experience and what I've run that has worked well before. Isn't what matters here the output of the mid vs. the output of the horn? If you have that (from surface area, power, sensitvity, whatever) it should work, no? Obviously, that is easier to do with a more sensitive midbass and there are other benefits to running higher sensitivity midbass as well but what exactly prevents a more traditional car audio mid from working if the output is there?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Power compression.


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## silence (Dec 20, 2014)

That would prevent them from reaching the volume needed to properly pair with the horns. In my hypothetical the mid setup is acheiving the volume needed. Or is the point here that within the confines of almost any car it becomes impossible to reasonably create enough volume to pair well without using a high sensitivity midbass?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It can be done to certain degrees. But IMO it is easier with the pro speakers, but you can't run your front midbasses to 50 with the pro speakers unless they are 10s or 12s.


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

Or ported


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

You could also pull out a stump with a Chevy Colorado, but a Ram CTD 3500 is going to get the job done more efficiently.

A mid with an efficiency of 83db needs ~500w to level match a 110db horn getting 1w. Can it be done? Sure. Why would you want to when plenty of high efficiency PA mids exist? I don't get the appeal...


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## silence (Dec 20, 2014)

Got it and I agree. I just thought maybe I was missing something. 

Fwiw- I run cd1 pro on 35 watts and the xs65 mids on 200 in my last setup.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

silence said:


> Got it and I agree. I just thought maybe I was missing something.
> 
> Fwiw- I run cd1 pro on 35 watts and the xs65 mids on 200 in my last setup.


Kinda had the same setup, moved from an X65 to a 6ND430 and the system is now sounding better than ever - just couldn't fit a bigger driver without cutting metal (wife wouldn't let me do that lol). However, I now have an upfront subwoofer (10") and it's priceless now. 

Lended the car to my dad but he's not thinking of giving it back anytime soon 

Kelvin


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## silence (Dec 20, 2014)

I am moving to a sealed enclosure for the xs65 (hopefully large enough for them to get low- otherwise will modify as needed), a 10" up front and 8" JBL 2118H rear fill. I was tempted to move the JBL up front, but think I'll get more of what I want from what I am doing. My new setup also uses the 90s GTi 15s.

I am lucky that I get to cut whatever I want- the perks of being stuck in high school (when it comes to the vintage of my vehicles, not that I had them then).


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

6.5 upfront and 8s in the rear for fill sounds like a recipe for disaster


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## silence (Dec 20, 2014)

I know what you are saying!


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

I'd be looking at using a 10-12" Pro Audio woofer... With 2-3 18's IB on the rear deck. What I'm most concerned about is running long or short body Horns because of the console, and how far they can be pushed towards the firewall, without affecting imaging,stage height ect.


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## enigma (Jul 5, 2008)

mmiller said:


>


Curious as too what kinda car is this?


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

mmiller said:


> *I'd be looking at using a 10-12" Pro Audio woofer... With 2-3 18's IB on the rear deck*.


That ought to be interesting!



mmiller said:


> What I'm most concerned about is running long or short body Horns because of the console, and how far they can be pushed towards the firewall, without affecting imaging, stage height ect.


 I originally started with mini horns and I was able to push them pretty far back and wide but an issue that does not get brought up much is safety. The further back I moved the horns the closer they came to my brake pedal. My size 13 foot had a big issue with catching the edge of the horn instead of the brake if I was not careful. I switched to the full body which pushes the horn to the front edge of the dash where it transitions up. My foot is behind the horn and no longer an issue. After doing this and modifying my console I felt the imaging became better as well. 
Now this may not be an issue with your car but it should be something to keep in mind.


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks, I had a look at your thread, nice job! You could make a fortune on those parking Brake brackets! &#55357;&#56832;


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

JoshHefnerX said:


> Ok, I'll revise my statement.. You don't "need" big efficient midbasses. But if you have to turn your horns down 20-30db to match up, you're kinda loosing some of the benefit of having horns..
> 
> Josh


As crazy as this sounds, I routinely have to pad down my *midranges* because their efficiency is so high.

I think it's hard for people to appreciate how small a midrange horn can be. Even a horn that's less than seven inches deep will load a midrange down to 500hz!

In my last design I was using a fifteen inch midbass, an array of 3" woofers and a Vifa tweeter. The 15" midbass had the highest distortion! The only way to keep up with the 3" midranges would be to use dual fifteens :O









Cookiemonster at diyaudio posted this design which could really take this to the next level, a really clever use of space.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

bigbubba said:


> That ought to be interesting!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One time I was on a first date, and my underdash horn fell down. The weight of the horn hitting the brake pedal caused the car to brake suddenly and I nearly caused a pile-up :O

Not the best way to impress a girl


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

My horn on the driver side has just enough room behind the body for the brake pedal lever to clear, but I definitely could kick it.


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## wanderer1 (Dec 22, 2014)

So the basically it's pro level 8's and up to run with horns? A good pair of 6 1/2's in a door wouldn't cut it?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

edzyy said:


> Or ported


or horned...


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Patrick Bateman said:


> As crazy as this sounds, I routinely have to pad down my *midranges* because their efficiency is so high.
> 
> I think it's hard for people to appreciate how small a midrange horn can be. Even a horn that's less than seven inches deep will load a midrange down to 500hz!
> 
> ...


 I like that quadhorn design, very interesting. Is there a picture of the throat of that horn.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Victor, that is a unity/synergy horn...lots out there on it.

Hard to initially design, but once they are right, there is nothing else like it IMO.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I see that I thought quadhorn name fits. Just wanted to see inside of the throat, sharp edges would not make it sounds good.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Most of those horns have some rounding from the compression driver to the mid tap/ports. After that there is no rounding. The lack of rounding is good for this kind of horn because the pressures in the corners is lower which makes it easier for the midrange taps to work.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

wanderer1 said:


> So the basically it's pro level 8's and up to run with horns? A good pair of 6 1/2's in a door wouldn't cut it?


The 6.5" will work just fine, the 8" will just do it better.


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