# Mids Don't Sound Very Good



## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

I've been working on the system in my car for about 2 years and I've never been very happy with the mids in the doors and I'm starting to think it might be the car so I'm trying to find out if there might be a possible solution that won't cost me an arm and a leg. I think the best word to describe my problem is that they sound muffled. I'm going to list where I started and where I am in case it helps figure this out, hopefully it doesn't get too long winded.

I originally used a Dynaudio System 222 and Digital Designs D5.1000 amplifier with the passive crossovers and it sounded terrible. So then I decided to get an Arc Audio PS8 and bi-amp the speakers and do away with the passive crossover. It sounded much better but still not great. I put more sound deadening in the door and Ensolite foam behind the door panel and it made no difference. Then I installed Speaker Tweakers behind the speakers which I had to cut in half and put on either side of the impact bar that runs directly behind the speakers that I can't do anything about. They made a pretty big difference. I lived with it for over a year untuned because I didn't have a microphone. I thought it sounded muffled then as well to the point where I didn't want to listen to any live Joe Bonamassa or Joe Satriani which I love. I figured it was just bad live recordings or that it wasn't tuned at all.

At this point I bought a truck and I wanted to put a system in it also. I robbed the DD amp from my car and replaced it with an Audison 5.1k and bought a set of SI M25 tweeters and two sets of TM65 MKII for the truck but the second set was for my car because I always wanted to upgrade to 6.5" speakers. I bought a microphone to tune the system in the truck because it didn't sound that great and I did a quick tune to it before a trip and haven't touched it since. I liked the TM65's so I went ahead and installed them in my car and while it doesn't sound worse than the Dyns, it certainly doesn't sound better. The more I drive both vehicles I think the truck sounds so much better than my car. Today settled it for me because I was listening to a live Bonamassa album I haven't listen to in a while cranked and it sounded so good where in my car it wouldn't have been very enjoyable. I have retuned the car trying different things in REW probably 10 times but still can't rid the muffled sound.

Do I just need to keep trying different speakers and hopefully come up with something that sounds better? I get the feeling the best choice would be a three way setup but that doesn't help me not spend and arm and a leg and I really don't have anywhere to mount a 3" speaker. I am not willing to cut up my door panels or dash because all the panels are very expensive and are already becoming hard to come by due to this car being made in Australia. I have the tweeters mounted in pods made by valicar-stuttgart on eBay that are mounted to the a-pillars. Is there maybe another tweeter I can consider that plays lower? I have the crossover set to 2500 Hz at the moment (same as the truck) and I was going to try lowering it to the 2200 Hz (this is where the FR starts to drop off according to REW) and see if that helps but I kinda don't feel like that will help the muffled sound.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

1. Are the speakers sealed to the door, and is the normally huge hole in the door covered up?

Any rear wave sound escaping through holes in the door will cancel out sound from the speaker.

2. Can you add mass to the door around the speaker? Maybe the door panels are more flimsy in the car than the truck and energy is lost to the panel. I have like 2lbs of duct sealant molded around the mounting ring to add mass.

Both make a significant difference and are cheap.







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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Yes, they are sealed to the wood baffle and the baffle is sealed to the door. I made the baffles from left over Baltic birch and I made all four (two for each vehicle) at the same time and sealed with the same strip caulk. The doors are sealed up pretty well I think. I did cover up all the holes that I could but especially the big holes.

There isn't much room between the speaker and door panel but I did think about getting those Fast foam rings to seal the speaker to the door panel. The door panel in the car seems much more rigid in it's construction and the way it attaches (it has screws at the bottom that the truck doesn't have) and the car is also 3 years old where the truck is 12 years old.


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

I can tell you a story. I had the same set up in my 4Runner. 25/65ii combo. I had nick tune it and I kept playing with it, but had a hard time getting it just right. I was at stereo integrity on day and stole a pair of the m3s and put hem in and that was a game changer. (I didn’t really steal them). However it changed everything. The tm65iii will be the 2 way beast. It simply plays higher and doesn’t require the tweet to play so low. My 4Runner is a pain in the whoha to get things to sound right in and I am finally happy. I have spent a lot of unnecessary money. It may be your car, but finding a way to add a mid will probably do the trick. 
I also had to change the placement and direction of my tweets and that made a big difference as well. It could also be the tune in the car. 
I know your pain. Could be your crossover points and a phase issue in the car. What crossover points are you using and what slopes are you using. Also, have you checked the polarity of the speakers and or tried flipping the polarity of one of the mids?


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

What make and model car is it?


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Iamsecond said:


> I can tell you a story. I had the same set up in my 4Runner. 25/65ii combo. I had nick tune it and I kept playing with it, but had a hard time getting it just right. I was at stereo integrity on day and stole a pair of the m3s and put hem in and that was a game changer. (I didn’t really steal them). However it changed everything. The tm65iii will be the 2 way beast. It simply plays higher and doesn’t require the tweet to play so low. My 4Runner is a pain in the whoha to get things to sound right in and I am finally happy. I have spent a lot of unnecessary money. It may be your car, but finding a way to add a mid will probably do the trick.
> I also had to change the placement and direction of my tweets and that made a big difference as well. It could also be the tune in the car.
> I know your pain. Could be your crossover points and a phase issue in the car. What crossover points are you using and what slopes are you using. Also, have you checked the polarity of the speakers and or tried flipping the polarity of one of the mids?


I was hoping I was just missing something in the tuning! That same company makes a pod for the SI M3 but I'm not sure I will like two pods being on my a-pillars since that will force the pod for the tweeters to be even higher and might be a distraction while driving. I have zero fabrication skills so making something custom is out of my wheelhouse. Here's a picture of what I have right now.

I was planning on playing with the corssovers more just to see what happens because maybe I could live with a dip in FR around the crossover point more than I can deal with what I have now. I haven't tried changing polarity but that's a simple option in the DSP so I can try that as well. That is another thing I forgot to mention that's different between the car and truck is the tweeters are on axis in the car and in the truck they're mounted pointing toward each other but slightly down (didn't realize they were going to be slightly down until after they were installed).


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Mullings said:


> What make and model car is it?


Oops, it was in there and I accidentally deleted it trying to make the post less wordy. It's a 2016 Chevrolet SS sedan. If the radio makes any difference, it is the older MyLink radio like in the 5th generation Camaro, it isn't the radio with all the separate modules and MOST.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Do you have an aftermarket radio or portable music player to plug directly into the processor to see how that sounds? Could be your factory radio is sending a crap signal.


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Where are you getting your audio signal from? Pre amp from the radio or after the factory amplifier?


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Do you have an aftermarket radio or portable music player to plug directly into the processor to see how that sounds? Could be your factory radio is sending a crap signal.


I can look through my spare wire boxes and see if I have a 3.5mm to RCA cable still and I might be able to do that.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Mullings said:


> Where are you getting your audio signal from? Pre amp from the radio or after the factory amplifier?


I removed the factory amplifier so the inputs to the DSP are straight from the factory radio.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

I'm thinking about going tweeterless. I've done a little research on them and I realize I might loose some in the 18k-20k Hz range but I'm honestly not even sure I'd notice that as much as what I notice now. The HAT Legatia L3SE looks like it could be a good option and I could probably come out even after selling the MD102's and the rest of the Dynaudio System 222 where adding a midrange to what I have even if I use the cheaper SI M3 will probably cost in the neighborhood of $600.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Subbing...curious how this all plays out.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

At the recommendation of multiple people I decided not to go tweeterless and I bought Audiofrog GB60's and I installed them last night and the problem persists. And the Stereo Integrity's I removed already sold... When it rains, it pours. I also did try connecting my phone straight to the DSP's RCA connectors and it might have sounded slightly better but nowhere near where it should be. I'm really at my whits end with this and considering ripping everything out but the sub and putting it back to the crappy stock Bose. 

The only install issues I can think of are not having the speaker sealed to the door panel with foam (I'm planning on getting something foam at Home Depot tomorrow) or maybe getting some of those black hole blocks Skizer uses regularly but they aren't cheap and even he said won't make crap into gold.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

This entirely sounds like a tuning issue. Get a mic and start posting graphs. Throwing money at the wall till something sounds better, isnt going to help. 

Mic. Graphs. Tune with science.

Also if u want to know if its your doors panels. Just take them off and play music. 

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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

I have a mic. A quick tune made it somewhat better but not a whole lot. I had a use pink noise from Dynaudio's "Meter" iPhone app because my car has decided it refuses to play WAV files from my flash drive now... I'm new to the tuning so I could have screwed it up but I'm basing this again off of the fact that I did my truck first just to make it listenable to go on a trip and haven't touched it since and I'm happy with it but I've messed with this car over and over. I guess pulling the door panels back off is worth a try. I've attached the graphs I have.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Make your y axis between 0-65. Its wayyy wayyyyy too big to be useful right now

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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

What he^^ said. There should be no more than a 5 db difference in the scale, between horizontal lines. It looks like you have it at 10 or 20 db, it's too flat looking.


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

Just realized your problem. It’s how your tweets are aimed. They are in a great place but need to be aimed up not low. . Fix that and your golden. I had the exact same issue. I just reread this and saw your comment on you tweets. If you move your head down it should brighten up. Slide down in your seat. Not while driving of course. Lol. 
I tuned my set up, which was the 25/65 combo, and I had the same issue. I would tune to Andy audiofrog house curve and it sounded muffled and dull. However,, I reaimed the tweets and it was gone. The brightness was there with the same tune. I pointed my tweets at the dome light. Your tweets are playing very low and the dullness is from them. I am also assuming you have the time alignment correct and the crossovers at 24lw. This should clear it up.
Also I can’t tell but looks like something is strange with your rew graphs. Your tweet graph should not stay flat beyond the crossover slope it should dive. 
Also your mid graph should not go out to 20k like that either.


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## jrwalte (Mar 27, 2008)

I'd sample it at a higher volume too so you reading 70+ as your avg. Make sure you are far enough away from the noise floor. It should be at a moderate listening level.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Turn up your volume some when doing measurements, then make it so the y axis is 0-65. Then post graphs. We can help you then.

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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Make your y axis between 0-65. Its wayyy wayyyyy too big to be useful right now
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk





ckirocz28 said:


> What he^^ said. There should be no more than a 5 db difference in the scale, between horizontal lines. It looks like you have it at 10 or 20 db, it's too flat looking.


Alright, I will try and do that. I left it at whatever the default was because I've been using AutoEQ since I didn't believe my skills were up to doing it on my own yet.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Iamsecond said:


> Just realized your problem. It’s how your tweets are aimed. They are in a great place but need to be aimed up not low. . Fix that and your golden. I had the exact same issue. I just reread this and saw your comment on you tweets. If you move your head down it should brighten up. Slide down in your seat. Not while driving of course. Lol.
> I tuned my set up, which was the 25/65 combo, and I had the same issue. I would tune to Andy audiofrog house curve and it sounded muffled and dull. However,, I reaimed the tweets and it was gone. The brightness was there with the same tune. I pointed my tweets at the dome light. Your tweets are playing very low and the dullness is from them. I am also assuming you have the time alignment correct and the crossovers at 24lw. This should clear it up.
> Also I can’t tell but looks like something is strange with your rew graphs. Your tweet graph should not stay flat beyond the crossover slope it should dive.
> Also your mid graph should not go out to 20k like that either.


I will try that. I've gone back and forth thinking the tweeters could be the problem and thinking the woofers could be the problem. The tweeters in the truck are completely off-axis so that is a difference between the two. I was planning on doing something different with the tweeters first and then I was talked out of doing tweeterless and told the TM65's were garbage in no-so-many words and I had wanted the Frogs from the beginning but didn't want to spend the money.

I haven't messed with time alignment because I thought I needed to have everything else squared away first. The crossovers are at 24 and the LR.

I thought it was odd that it didn't drop off as much because I took those measurements with the crossovers on (previously I had taken measurements with the crossovers off except for a HP on the tweeters). I believe I had the crossover at 2500Hz in those measurements. Unless there's something wrong with my DSP. Both vehicles are Arc Audio PS8's but I bought both used.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

You may as well set time alignment. The Tracerite time alignment calculator works really well.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

jrwalte said:


> I'd sample it at a higher volume too so you reading 70+ as your avg. Make sure you are far enough away from the noise floor. It should be at a moderate listening level.





Jscoyne2 said:


> Turn up your volume some when doing measurements, then make it so the y axis is 0-65. Then post graphs. We can help you then.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


Will do. I'm not sure why I took them with it quieter this time, maybe because it was late and I was tired.

Should I take the base measurements with the crossovers set or take them off? 

Is the pink noise from the Dynaudio Meter iPhone app ok? I don't know why my car won't play the WAV files from the flash drive all the sudden. They'd probably work if I converted them to MP3 but that will degrade the quality. It doesn't have a CD player so I can't use a disc.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Are you sure your crossovers are set? Your graphs indicate they might not be.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

They were supposed to be. I realized I hadn't turned them off before I did the measurements after I had put everything away.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

You're not supposed to turn off your crossovers when doing rta work. You have to protect the speakers somehow and you need to know how the speakers behave in the passband.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

That wasn't the right word to use, they weren't completely off. I had a HP on the tweeters at 1950Hz when doing measurements previously (they're fs is 1300Hz) but the HP on the woofers at 20Hz maybe? I can't remember now (that was with the SI's since I didn't change it this time). I guess I should leave the HP on the woofers at the 60Hz or 70Hz that the LP for the subwoofer is set at. I will take new measurements this afternoon when we get errands done. I think it looking like the crossovers weren't set was due to the graph on REW, I changed it to 0-65 and you can clearly see the drop off.


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

If someone told you the 65 were garbage I’m not so many words they are crazy. I will freely admit they are better for a 3 way but I already posted about that. But, I will almost guarantee it’s the tweeter aim that’s causing your issue. 
Not sure about your truck but they may be aimed off the windshield or crossed in front of you bouncing off the opposite side window glass. Point is. If the tweets are aimed at the dash or down as you described they are not bouncing off glass but hitting a deadened dash or leather seats. Try aiming them at the opposite window, or the dome light or even the rear view mirror, or the opposite headrest. This will fix the problem. 
Also, keep your crossovers on. You can measure each speaker individually or measure a side with tweet, mid and sub. This will probably help you to level match as well.


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

And yes, time align and set crossovers and level match BEFORE you mess with eq.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

compuwiz1937 said:


> Will do. I'm not sure why I took them with it quieter this time, maybe because it was late and I was tired.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does it have an aux in?

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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Only USB in. No 3.5mm. It’s really annoying. Some people do still use them! I could connect the laptop straight to the DSP with the 3.5mm to RCA cable but I thought that might cause a levels mismatch and skew the readings.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.di...timers-guide-measuring-your-system.html?amp=1

Use your computer

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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

I just finished tilting the tweeters up and it made a HUGE difference. It looks a bit odd to my eye now but I'll probably get used to it. I was able to increase the output to them from -8.5db to 0 db and a little bit more might even be desirable now (I have room in the amp gains so I can turn it up a tad there if necessary after I tune it better).

I also realized that I bent up the lock rod by accident on the passenger door so I had to take the door panel back off anyway to fix that so while it was off I tested it and it might have made it sound a little better but not a huge amount. I'm starting to think now this might actually be fixable with tuning. I'm also thinking the side to side levels could be off since I didn't have the graph set correctly in REW so I will double check that as well. I need to charge the laptop and see if I can find my longer 3.5mm to RCA cable and then I'll set the microphone back up. I need to take one off one of the a-pillar trims because the nut came loose while I was tilting the tweeter so I need to make sure it doesn't move before I tune again.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Good deal. Now you can stop spending money on the problem you just fixed.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

It isn't totally fixed, certain electric guitar notes and vocals are still a bit ear piercing but I believe that could be fixed by the tuning.


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

That is a tuning issue. Get the ta, crossover, and levels matched and most of that will go away and clean up. Then use eq. 
Also, I never realized how awesome those ss are. Didn’t know anything about them until I ran across the ss forum. I want one, but I guess I’ll have to settle for a charger or camaro


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Would using the RTA function in REW and looking at the average dB while it's recording be an accurate way to set the levels?


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Here's what I got at the moment using the time alignment calculator and setting the levels with RTA and pink noise vs. comparing the graphs visually like I did previously.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Here's everything together. The sub to woofer crossover is 70Hz and Woofer to Tweeter is 2250Hz.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Iamsecond said:


> Just realized your problem. It’s how your tweets are aimed. They are in a great place but need to be aimed up not low. . Fix that and your golden. I had the exact same issue. I just reread this and saw your comment on you tweets. If you move your head down it should brighten up. Slide down in your seat. Not while driving of course. Lol.
> I tuned my set up, which was the 25/65 combo, and I had the same issue. I would tune to Andy audiofrog house curve and it sounded muffled and dull. However,, I reaimed the tweets and it was gone. The brightness was there with the same tune. I pointed my tweets at the dome light. Your tweets are playing very low and the dullness is from them. I am also assuming you have the time alignment correct and the crossovers at 24lw. This should clear it up.
> Also I can’t tell but looks like something is strange with your rew graphs. Your tweet graph should not stay flat beyond the crossover slope it should dive.
> Also your mid graph should not go out to 20k like that either.


this is not at all the problem

EDIT: now that i see the higher res graphs, i stand behind my statement even more. nearly 25db swings in the passband of the mids. Thats a _huge_ problem. Its a tuning, or lack thereof, issue. Those wide dips centered at 600hz really arent doing you any favors.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> this is not at all the problem
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: now that i see the higher res graphs, i stand behind my statement even more. nearly 25db swings in the passband of the mids. Thats a _huge_ problem. Its a tuning, or lack thereof, issue. Those wide dips centered at 600hz really arent doing you any favors.


Do you have huge frequency cuts in that area?
If not, you need to figure out if this is a signal issue or cabin response issue.

Unmount one of the drivers, connect a long speaker cable to it and set it on the ground outside the car. Take a measurement (change no settings) with the mic 1 meter in front of the driver and see if the huge 600hz dip is still there.

Make sure you use the 0 degree calibration file that came with the mic if you point it directly at the driver.

Maybe I missed this, but what mic do you have and do you have calibration files for it?

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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> Do you have huge frequency cuts in that area?
> If not, you need to figure out if this is a signal issue or cabin response issue.
> 
> Unmount one of the drivers, connect a long speaker cable to it and set it on the ground outside the car. Take a measurement (change no settings) with the mic 1 meter in front of the driver and see if the huge 600hz dip is still there.
> ...


1) taking a measurement in a very wrong way wont give much useful info. Measuring drivers is not as simple as just putting it on the ground and running a sweep

2) Its not the drivers. The GB60's have a flat response up to 5k. Its pretty much physically impossible to have a normal 6" driver with dips that crazy at 600hz. Its most likely cancellation from reflection from the center console. Theres nothing you can really do about it besides try to eq it, or go 3 way and move the problem areas to a different driver/location where it wont have those issues.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> 1) taking a measurement in a very wrong way wont give much useful info. Measuring drivers is not as simple as just putting it on the ground and running a sweep
> 
> 
> 
> 2) Its not the drivers. The GB60's have a flat response up to 5k. Its pretty much physically impossible to have a normal 6" driver with dips that crazy at 600hz. Its most likely cancellation from reflection from the center console. Theres nothing you can really do about it besides try to eq it, or go 3 way and move the problem areas to a different driver/location where it wont have those issues.


I know it's not the drivers. And even if it was the drivers, this test wouldn't prove/disprove anything.

I agree the measurement outside will never sound even close to the response in the car, but that's exactly my point.

If something in the signal chain is causing the 600hz dip, it will still be there in some fashion while measuring outside the vehicle.

If it's a cabin response / reflection / any environmental issue caused by the install, the huge dip will disappear.

I also want to confirm it's not related to an issue with the measurement process / equipment itself .
If it is, the dip will still be there.

I think the test will provide valuable insight.

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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> I know it's not the drivers. And even if it was the drivers, this test wouldn't prove/disprove anything.
> 
> I agree the measurement outside will never sound even close to the response in the car, but that's exactly my point.
> 
> ...


Ah I see what you were getting at now. For that, use the rta in a more useful and accurate way and measure the electrical signal

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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> Ah I see what you were getting at now. For that, use the rta in a more useful and accurate way and measure the electrical signal
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


Ok yeah, if he has that ability that would be much better. I guess I don't know how that is done.

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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> Ok yeah, if he has that ability that would be much better. I guess I don't know how that is done.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Instead of connecting and xlr cable to a mic, connect it to the signal wire. 

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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

I have a MiniDSP UMIK-1 and am using the calibration file. Could I maybe just open the door all the way and place the microphone outside the car and take a measurement and see if the dip is still there? I don't know if this helps at all but here's the measurements I have saved from my truck with TM65's.

I can try raising the crossover on the woofers to try and help with the dip at the crossover point. I was trying to keep it on the low side because I thought it sounded less ear piercing that way but maybe I can take care of that with the EQ. The crossover that low on the tweeters is really pushing them because they started falling off around 2750Hz if I remember correctly when I took measurements with the crossover set at 1900Hz to protect them. Going to a three-way setup just isn't possible in this car for multiple reasons so I've just got to get it as best I can and hopefully it's good enough.


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

If the audio frogs are flat and clean to 5k, I would move the crossover up to 4K. My 25s sound better when crossed over at 4K. Just a thought. 
I didn’t realize you had the af until slider pointed it out.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Iamsecond said:


> If the audio frogs are flat and clean to 5k, I would move the crossover up to 4K. My 25s sound better when crossed over at 4K. Just a thought.
> I didn’t realize you had the af until slider pointed it out.


He has the gb60's


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Alright, I raised the crossover to 3500Hz and used AutoEQ just to see what would happen and the result looked pretty decent to my untrained eyes. The 600Hz dip is still there but at least it isn't as massive as before. My ears only got a brief listen because the battery was getting a bit low. I do believe the "high spot" in the right mid from 950Hz-1500Hz is what was ear piercing. I was going to try 4000Hz as well and see how that worked but that'll have to wait. I'm fixing to drive it and see how it sounds. I also took a measurement of the left front woofer with the door open and microphone outside, I forgot I was supposed to do that first with no EQ on but it is what it is. I also attached that graph with the door closed graph for comparison.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

looks much better. Work on getting a proper crossover response now (looks like they overlap way to much right now). match acoustic crossovers for tweeters and mids. dont overlap


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

How do I do that? I have the LP on the mids and the HP on the tweeters both set at 3500Hz in the DSP. Do you mean have space between two in the DSP?


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## CDT FAN (Jul 25, 2012)

compuwiz1937 said:


> Alright, I raised the crossover to 3500Hz and used AutoEQ just to see what would happen and the result looked pretty decent to my untrained eyes. The 600Hz dip is still there but at least it isn't as massive as before. My ears only got a brief listen because the battery was getting a bit low. I do believe the "high spot" in the right mid from 950Hz-1500Hz is what was ear piercing. I was going to try 4000Hz as well and see how that worked but that'll have to wait. I'm fixing to drive it and see how it sounds. I also took a measurement of the left front woofer with the door open and microphone outside, I forgot I was supposed to do that first with no EQ on but it is what it is. I also attached that graph with the door closed graph for comparison.


What were the variables between those 3 graphs?


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

First graph is the mids before tuning with a 3500Hz crossover, the second is the same but tuned with AutoEQ, and the third is a comparison of the LF mid with the door open and microphone outside the car and the measurement from the LP.


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

Graphs look good. It looks like your crossing at 3db down instead of 6db with 24 lw crossover. Have you verified your crossover settings? Also there seems to be a dip as well. Just wondering.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Iamsecond said:


> Graphs look good. It looks like your crossing at 3db down instead of 6db with 24 lw crossover. Have you verified your crossover settings? Also there seems to be a dip as well. Just wondering.


I’m not sure I know what crossing 3db or 6db down means? I think the only place I’ve seen that is the measurement screen in REW for the sweep? I did do 3db there because I’m pretty sure that’s what the first timer’s guide to REW said. In that graph the mids are crossed at 70Hz and 3500Hz and the tweeters at 3500Hz and 20,000Hz.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

What slopes are you using? That'll answer his question


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

I800C0LLECT said:


> What slopes are you using? That'll answer his question


Yes, 24db per octave is a good start, as 2 of them between drivers will result in phase alignment. 

My suggestion would be to try 24db of that's not what it's set to currently.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

I800C0LLECT said:


> What slopes are you using? That'll answer his question


I'm almost positive they're all LR 24 db per octave. I'll double check but there's where I put them all unless the DSP reset something somewhere I didn't notice.

On another note, when I drove it yesterday it sounded significantly better. The main thing I noticed that was even though RTA said the levels are the same, the right side sounds a bit louder than the left. I "fixed" this by using the fader in the factory radio and moving it to the left but would the better way be to lower the level maybe a db on both right speakers or use the "moving the stage" on the tracerite calculator? I put my head over the center console and it still sounded the same but I'm not sure if that's what they mean by " if you still feel the stage is skewed so that the center is toward the right some distance."


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

All are 24db.


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

Yes, lower the output on the right side. 

Just out of curiosity. When you measure the tweets what spl are you getting, and what spl are you getting when you measure the mids. I’m talking about level matching. 
The left tweet should be lower than the right and the mids the same. But, what is the difference between tweets and mid. Adjusting the crossover like skizer suggest can affect things but also the difference between mids and tweets. 

This is a pain isn’t it. I’ve been messing with mine for over a year slowly changing and adjusting for the ever elusive sonic Xanadu. (Can’t help it, I’m a rush fan)


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

You are placing the mic where your head is right?

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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Iamsecond said:


> Yes, lower the output on the right side.
> 
> Just out of curiosity. When you measure the tweets what spl are you getting, and what spl are you getting when you measure the mids. I’m talking about level matching.
> The left tweet should be lower than the right and the mids the same. But, what is the difference between tweets and mid. Adjusting the crossover like skizer suggest can affect things but also the difference between mids and tweets.
> ...


Honestly, I can't remember. I should have written it down. ~85db for the mids and ~75db for the tweeters comes to mind but I could be way off base, I can check it again. Sometimes I think my left hear can hear better than my right (I don't feel like paying for a hearing test that will probably just confirm what I already think) so that could be a situation where I have to move away from the measurements and do what sounds better as far as the left to right levels.

I'm still confused on what Skizer meant about the crossover overlapping too much, how do I fix that? Put a gap between the LP and HP in the DSP? What am I looking for in the graph?

It would be less of a pain if I knew exactly what I was doing! Plus, I'm a perfectionist and perfection isn't possible so that isn't helping either.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> You are placing the mic where your head is right?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Yes.


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## hdrugs (Sep 7, 2009)

Man, honestly i moved mids in and out of doors atleast 4 times in different cars 

There was one time i deadened the door that it felt heavy to open/close 

And still rattles somewhere plus rearwaves bounce everywhere creating all different nuances 

A sealed box even at minimum would take 7l litres which take alot of leg room

More recently i've moved on to aperiodic enclosures and its a charm. I vent underseat its not too complicated to tune and opens a range of mids to choose from


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Iamsecond said:


> Just realized your problem. It’s how your tweets are aimed. They are in a great place but need to be aimed up not low. . Fix that and your golden. I had the exact same issue. I just reread this and saw your comment on you tweets. If you move your head down it should brighten up. Slide down in your seat. Not while driving of course. Lol.
> I tuned my set up, which was the 25/65 combo, and I had the same issue. I would tune to Andy audiofrog house curve and it sounded muffled and dull. However,, I reaimed the tweets and it was gone. The brightness was there with the same tune. I pointed my tweets at the dome light. Your tweets are playing very low and the dullness is from them. I am also assuming you have the time alignment correct and the crossovers at 24lw. This should clear it up.
> Also I can’t tell but looks like something is strange with your rew graphs. Your tweet graph should not stay flat beyond the crossover slope it should dive.
> Also your mid graph should not go out to 20k like that either.



Linkwitz-Wiley? :-D j.k.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

I haven't messed with this any more since I can actually drive my car and not want to just turn the radio off and I've also decided I want to save my pennies for the GB15 tweeters. I like a brighter tweeter than the MD102's are and then I can cross the mids lower and still get good frequency response. I wish my TM65's hadn't sold so fast because I bet it would have sounded great with the TM65's and the GB15's. Not that I don't like the GB60's but for monetary reasons since the GB15's are cheaper than the GB60's and I lost a little money selling the TM65's (I was surprised they sold so quick, I would have rather the Dynadio stuff sell quickly!). I occasionally had the feeling my problem was more with the tweeters than the mids but I think having the level on the tweeters so low before I changed the angle made the mids sound worse than they actually were. At least I learned more through this.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

I can understand your thoughts about how much those GB60s set you back. But they have enough throw to equal the output of most 8" mids. Plus the clarity of mid-range. They really are a no compromise mid. That's why they have such a good following on here.

I think you good get equal performance from a dedicated midbass and mid-range/3-way setup. But for 2-way, you should just save your pennies. I'm running GB15 with my GB60's now and have no regrets

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

oabeieo said:


> Linkwitz-Wiley? :-D j.k.


lol, my fingers have a lisp. They have always had a hard time using the r properly. it comes out w most of the time.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

I800C0LLECT said:


> I can understand your thoughts about how much those GB60s set you back. But they have enough throw to equal the output of most 8" mids. Plus the clarity of mid-range. They really are a no compromise mid. That's why they have such a good following on here.
> 
> I think you good get equal performance from a dedicated midbass and mid-range/3-way setup. But for 2-way, you should just save your pennies. I'm running GB15 with my GB60's now and have no regrets
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


I’m definitely not discounting their abilities. They’re very nice speakers indeed. The TM65’s didn’t sound good in my car crossed any higher than 2000Hz and I’ve got the GB60’s crossed at 3500Hz and changed nothing else, they’re even in the same baffle (and in the same screw holes).


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

I've got the GB15's now and they are much more to my taste. I'm working on the tuning. I'm still confused about the crossover's overlapping too much and how to fix that? I thought the idea was to have no dip in the FR at the crossover point. Or do I only look at that when I measure the system as a whole (or L to R) rather than putting all the individual measurements on the graph at the same time?


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

The goal is to measure flat at the crossover point when measuring one side at a time, while measuring tweeter and mid together.

You will see a dip when measured separately, but that's not how you listen to speakers.

Most people use 24db slopes because the phase shifts cancel each other out at the crossover point, which usually makes it easy to get a flat FR, but if another option or mixing slopes gets you flatter, go with that.

You'll have issues at the crossover point if the drivers are not both time aligned and in phase, so keep that in mind.

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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Alright. I was going to try the 12db slopes Audiofrog recommends in their suggestions just to see what that would do. Also, the electrical crossovers I enter in the DSP should always be cascading, correct? Like the LP for the mid should be the same thing entered for the HP of the tweeter?


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

compuwiz1937 said:


> Alright. I was going to try the 12db slopes Audiofrog recommends in their suggestions just to see what that would do. Also, the electrical crossovers I enter in the DSP should always be cascading, correct? Like the LP for the mid should be the same thing entered for the HP of the tweeter?


Sure, try both and see what happens.

Starting with 24db on both sides (tweet hpf and mid lpf) is the best starting point for the following reasons:

1. You don't want to use too shallow of a slope on the tweeter, depending on where it is crossed. If you cross it low (like 2k) and have a shallow slope, you risk sending frequencies too close to the fS and damaging the tweeter. 

2. Phase alignment, as mentioned above.

3. Beaming. The mid will start beaming around 3k so using a 24db slope will cut down on the frequencies sent to the mid that start to beam.

4. All else being setup properly, and time aligned, in a perfect environment, a 24db slope on each side (set at the same freq) should sum flat. It will electrically, but the response is another matter.

If matching the slopes at 24db (at the same freq) nets you a flat response, that's ideal. 

If you get a dip at 24db, try 12db on both sides.

"Cascading" to me, refers to stacking the same crossover on the same driver in multiple places.
You should never do that.

In other words, you should not have a mid lpf on the dsp and another mid lpf on the head unit, or the amp. Only one device (dsp) should have an active crossover.

But generally yes it is good practice to make the slopes identical on both sides, unless you have a specific reason not to.

If you get a dip on one side of the crossover point, you could try a more shallow slope for that driver.

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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

The phase could be wrong, I possibly don't understand how to set it. I've been reading this: https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...ssentials-sound-quality-imho.html#post2107539 and I'm still not sure I'm getting it. Seems like it says to set it by ear and see what sounds best.

Also, another thing I just noticed was that even with the GB15's the frequency starts dropping off about 13k Hz like my MD102's did but I didn't think it was a problem with the Dyn's because the FR graph on their web site does show a drop off toward the high frequencies in that area. The graph on AF's web site shows the GB15's holding out to 20k Hz which is part of the reason I bought them. I had a 24 db slope set on the low pass crossover in the DSP and I'm guessing I should really have that set on pass. I'm betting that's been screwing up me trying to use AutoEQ in REW since it was trying to bring everything down to match.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

Accoustical phase is the end result of several things.

If all speakers are in the same polarity (wired POS to POS, NEG to NEG) AND they are all time aligned correctly, AND (electrical) phase is set to 0 on any devices that have it, all speakers will be in perfect accoustic phase at the listening spot.

If you have time alignment, there is no reason to wire a driver in reverse polarity (NEG to POS) or have phase on any equipment set to anything but 0, except for testing or while tuning.

Flipping polarity on drivers and messing with phase settings are Band-Aids for systems without time alignment capabilities.


The FR dropping off after 13k may be how the tweets are mounted. If they're not on-axis, or pointed right at you, you will get drop off at the higher end at some point, same with the mids.

The further off axis they're aimed, the more they'll drop off. Try measuring a tweeter with the mic pointed right at it, from right in front of it, while using the 0 degree Cal file for the mic, and see if you get a flat response. 

If you still see the problem, it could be something not set right on the dsp.

The good news, Is that most people prefer some sort of downward slope in the high end anyway, so only worry about it if it sounds bad to you.

I myself can only hear up to around 16k so it would matter little to me.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Ok, that makes a heck of a lot more sense. I'm hoping I can spend more time with it later.


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## 1sty (Jun 24, 2009)

One of the things I noticed about the SS is Chevy literally aimed all front speakers in the worst ways possible. I actualyl felt bad for Bose on this one. Total no-win scenario with tweeters forced to be 90 degrees off axis.
Both the doors and the tweeters fire slightly down and toward the front of the car. In other words, completely away from anyone's ears.

I have had the SAME issues you have with this car. I can put $5000 worth of gear in it and it sounds like dirt. The $40 pair of replacement speakers in my F150 sounded better until I really dialed in the EQ.

I did what you did with the tweeters, re-aiming them and am going to get into the doors and redo those soon. I am guessing these mids need to get re-aimed as well.
I have a major dead spot on each mid, left was at 300hz and the right was at 800hz. Way to big and deep to complete EQ out.

At least you don't seem to have the steady state background hiss/hum and turn off pop I do. That drives me nuts. Put the factory amp back in and it all goes away. Any aftermarket electronics in the signal path and there it is. The weird digital oscillation the TWK88 gives me on and input voltage setting of 5.6V is somewhat cool though. Very trippy.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Yeah, the car being the issue is what I figured a while ago. Really sucks. Especially when I used the same Stereo Integrity TM65 speakers in my truck and in this car and they sounded great in the truck and terrible in this car. This car really needs a three-way setup but I have zero fabrication skills so I can't make custom a-pillars that would look good and I don't want four of the Valicar pods in my line-of-slight, especially since a 3.5" one would be pretty large. I kinda wish I had tried going tweeterless with widebands but I just don't have the money to tie up on any more experiments. I'm not going to ruin any of the expensive and on the verge of being discontinued interior panels to mount speakers to (the a-pillars was the only thing I was willing to "ruin"). The GB15 and GB60 combo sounds the best of everything I've tried so far and I think tuning can make it work. I need to try tuning it manually but I'm not sure when I'll have a few hours to set aside to do it since I've never done that before.

What are you going to do to change the angle of the speakers in the doors, like an angled baffle? If it's something you can make a second set of, I might be interested in buying a set for mine.

I did have some turn off pop I was able to fix changing the turn off delay times in the PS8. I didn't have any noise until I switched to the GB15's because they're 4 ohms and the MD102's were 8 ohms, which seemed to help keep the noise down. I can only hear the noise when I turn the car off before the PS8 turns off the amplifier so I don't think I'm going to spend time chasing it down. I had huge noise issues in my truck that I had to deal with and part of my solution there was to solder in-line resistors for the tweeters to increase them from 4 ohms to 8 ohms which did help quite a bit.


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## 1sty (Jun 24, 2009)

Starting with some angled baffles on ebay. Search:
Universal Car 1.5" Angled Beveled Depth Extender Spacer for 6.5" Speaker


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Ah, nice. The GB60's should fit in there. Maybe it's worth a shot for $10.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

I ordered the beveled speaker brackets and I'm going to give that a try. I figure it's worth a shot before I give up and say a three-way is the only way this car will sound good.


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## 1sty (Jun 24, 2009)

Where this will put them out of parallel with the door speaker opening I am thinking some fast rings may be useful as well. Although RTA-ing to see the change without the door panel might be best.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Yeah, I did think about that. Part of me thinks it may not even be worth the time investment and I should just suck it up and go three-way and be done or just pull the plug entirely and maybe put the GB60's in my truck because they'd probably sound incredible in there.

I've been alternating between the car and truck this week listening to the same songs and I think I'd like to change my description of my car and say that the mids in the truck sound much more "full" than in the car. I listened to a good quality live recording and I feel like I'm there in my truck but I definitely do not get that in my car.


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## WannaBBurly (Dec 20, 2009)

Man, just stumbled across this thread. Glad I did, I’m about to put some gear in my 2017 SS. Much lower budget than your gear though. I’ll keep an eye on this and see what comes of it.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

The angled baffles came into today and the Fast rings will be in tomorrow. The weather isn’t supposed to be agreeable tomorrow so maybe I can try Monday.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

The weather moved out early so I tried to install the angled baffles and they won't fit without reinventing my original baffle with something much thinner (which I'm not opposed to as the current ones are made of wood and it'll have to be done eventually) so that's on hold for now.

I did notice a new "feature" in one of the latest versions of REW that has a "speaker" option under the EQ menu that lets you put in what the crossovers are to make the "target response" match much more closely and I bet that will help with the AutoEQ function.


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## 1sty (Jun 24, 2009)

I gave up with all of the auto tuning and settings with REW as something always seemed off about it. I got a much better result using a two monitor setup with my tuning software (JL) on one screen and REW running RTA on the Other. I still EQ'd one driver at a time but I can see the result live and make little adjustments as I go including my crossovers which ended up rather different for the left vs the right due to the cancellation issues in the car.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

I do plan on attempting a manual tune at some point, I just don't know when I'll have the time to devote to it. Since I don't really know what I'm doing I'm sure it'll take hours of playing with it to see what happens. I will say though, that new selection of "speaker driver" did make quite an improvement in the way both vehicles sound.

Interesting on the crossover. How did you determine that? Played just one side mid and tweeter together and found a dip in the FR at the crossover point? The crossover selection using REW is still something I'm a little fuzzy on and I still don't understand what skizer meant about too much overlap in the graphs I posted and how to correct that. I've just been using my ear to see what sounds decent and then made the LP of one the HP of the next up.

I also snagged a used set of GB25's I found just in case it comes to that. I'm kinda curious if I can even find a place to mount them and if I can I may just go ahead and use them. I'm wondering if I can find some way to mount them down by the kick panels or something where they won't be in the way. I might try them in my truck as well since I already have two available channels of amplification from adding the second amplifier for the tweeters because of the noise issues.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Well, it looks like I’m an idiot and was mostly the problem all along. I’ve been using the 90* mic calibration file all this time and setting the microphone flat on top of the headrest because it was easier to get it at the same location as my head... I don’t have any clue where I got this idea from but for some reason I was thinking the 90* file was for when the speakers were 90* from the microphone not that the microphone was 90* from the ground. This makes halfway sense for the door speakers but not for the tweeters (which is what got me thinking about it). I never even downloaded the 0* file! I remeasured last night and did a quick retune using the auto eq and the difference is astounding. It isn’t perfect but I can actually turn it up and not grimace. I bet the TM65’s would have sounded a lot better if I had been using the right dang calibration file. I really feel dumb. 

I’m not sure if I’ll still go for the three way setup or not, I’ve already got the GB25’s and the 2 channel amplifier is on the way so all I’ve got to do is something for mounting. Or I could just resell it all. Or use the GB25’s in my truck where I already have 2 extra channels. If I do a three way setup in the car I’ll probably still swap the GB60’s and the TM65’s so I can enjoy the GB60’s so their fullest since they can play much higher than the TM65’s. Hmm.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

Interesting.

The 90* Cal file is to be used when the mic is pointed at the ceiling, or about 90* from the speakers, as you first thought.

The 0* Cal file is for when you aim the mic directly at one driver and measure it by itself.

Maybe they swapped the Cal files around by accident?

Edit:

Oh I get it, you were aiming at the speakers.
I usually tilt the mic down a bit so it is aimed so 90* is at the center point between mids and tweeters, since mids are in stock door location and tweets are above the dash.

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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

Whoops, dup post.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

interesting, because the difference should be extremely minimal, especially if this is for your mids and not your tweeters. I would more so relate it to taking single point measurements and not spatial averages. Could also be that auto tune did a better job this go around because you had different settings. Auto tune can be done better or worse. its not as "auto" as you think.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

Perhaps your head is part of the problem.



You may get deconstructive interference at the listening point with the troubled frequencies, but your head blocks the window reflections from your right ear, and the right side interference from your left ear.

Try sitting in the car and hold the mic 90* right next to each ear and take a couple measurements on each side, then average the responses.

Either way, you'll get more accurate results this way. You have two ears to listen, not an Omni mic floating in space.

Edit:

Average left side together and save, average the right side together and save.

Then work on left EQ and right EQ separately to get them to match as close as possible.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> Interesting.
> 
> The 90* Cal file is to be used when the mic is pointed at the ceiling, or about 90* from the speakers, as you first thought.
> 
> ...


Minidsp’s web site says use the 0* when turning a stereo system with the microphone pointed toward the speakers and the 90* when the microphone is pointed at the ceiling for tuning surround sound setups. When I tuned my truck originally I used the microphone in the little tripod it came with and stuck the legs between the headrest and seat so it actually was pointed almost straight up. When I returned the truck after I changed to the Audiofrog subwoofer, I set the microphone on top of the headrest like I’d been doing my car and it didn’t sound as good as it did the first time but still listenable and I was more worried about my car.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> interesting, because the difference should be extremely minimal, especially if this is for your mids and not your tweeters. I would more so relate it to taking single point measurements and not spatial averages. Could also be that auto tune did a better job this go around because you had different settings. Auto tune can be done better or worse. its not as "auto" as you think.


I understand multiple measuring points is more desirable, I think I was figuring I’d do single point to save time until I figured out what my issue was and then go back and do it better. I guess my line of thought was that it should at least sound decent with a decent tune and it didn’t. 

I drove my car today to training which is twice as far away as work and the difference is massive. If it had sounded like this the first time I would have been happy. The levels need a little adjusting and I’ll probably redo it measuring from both ear areas. 

One thing I can think of is that the tweeters in the truck are pointing across the truck so maybe the 90* file didn’t hurt because of that.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> Perhaps your head is part of the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m not convinced my hearing isn’t part of the problem. 

So I can actually hold the microphone next to my ear and measure? That’s interesting. I guess that would provide a more accurate reading with what my head blocks.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

compuwiz1937 said:


> So I can actually hold the microphone next to my ear and measure?


Absolutely, do several measurements per ear and average them together, do this for each speaker. There's a guide around here somewhere.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

I haven't played with the EQ any more because I've decided I'm going to go ahead and use the GB25's since I already have them, I got them at a good price, and I also already have the 2 channel amplifier to run them so all I have to do to use them is figure out how/where to mount them. So I will also be swapping the GB60's into the truck so I can use them to their fullest and use the TM65's in the car, they should sound fine just doing 100Hz-400/500Hz. I haven't 100% decided yet but I may go ahead and swap the GB15's into the truck as well and use the M25's in the car for now and keep an eye out for a set of GB10's (I _just_ missed the set that popped up in the classifieds the other day). This way both vehicles should get an upgrade in SQ.


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Well, I was all set to start swapping stuff around this weekend and then I listened to a particular song the other day that made me realize the tweeters were too loud. So I adjusted them a bit and it sounds pretty darn good. And that’s still with the AutoEQ tune so it could likely sound better whenever I can sit down and give it a go myself. So now I’m not sure I want to go through all the trouble of adding the GB25 to the car, which I already wasn’t sure where I was going to put them where it wouldn’t annoy me while driving (my pods haven’t arrived yet so that’s why). Hmm. So I can still go ahead with it, leave both as they are, or use the GB25 in the truck instead (which would be less work since I already have 2 extra channels available)... decisions decisions. 

This does lead me to a question: does a smaller midrange driver like the GB25 need to be on-axis and up on the pillar area or can they be down lower on the door panels or maybe even under the dash/kick panel area? And if I did use them in the pods on-axis attached to the a-pillars would that create an issue if I left the tweeters off-axis pointing at each other across the truck?


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

6.5" mids start beaming around 3k, so they can be mounted 45-60 degrees off- axis without too much trouble. But I think a midrange playing much higher than that needs to be closer to on axis to perform well.

If both mid and tweeter are mounted close together off axis, that can work well.

Yeah the auto EQ on my 80prs also makes the tweeters way too bright.

Honestly no auto EQ out there even compares to careful manual EQ setup.

Until you've gone through that with painstaking detail, and then have a specific issue you can define that will be solved by a specific driver, there's no reason to try different drivers.

The install and tune makes up a majority if the final result.

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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> 6.5" mids start beaming around 3k,


6" diaphragm will start rolling off just around 600hz. 13500 (inches per second)/6 is 2250. Beaming *starts* at about a quarter wavelength the diameter of the cone. 

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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> 6" diaphragm will start rolling off just around 600hz. 13500 (inches per second)/6 is 2250. Beaming *starts* at about a quarter wavelength the diameter of the cone.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


Well, I stand corrected.
And crap, it's worse than I thought.

EDIT:

I think I found where I saw this incorrect info.
It was an article explaining beaming from 4" up to 8" drivers.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Beaming.htm

In the explanation of the charts, it says 6" driver clearly shows a suckout at 3k.

But if you zoom in on the chart, it is actually much closer to 2k.

Just had to clear that up, the last thing I want is to provide bad / false data.

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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> 6.5" mids start beaming around 3k, so they can be mounted 45-60 degrees off- axis without too much trouble. But I think a midrange playing much higher than that needs to be closer to on axis to perform well.
> 
> If both mid and tweeter are mounted close together off axis, that can work well.
> 
> ...


I'm not really trying different drivers any more. I was just going to make my two-way a three-way.

I was under the false impression until I tried the other calibration file for the microphone that the speakers should at least sound decent and then the EQ can make them sound great. I guess sometimes it works out that like and being that my truck sounded so good with so little effort I guess that sort of drove that home and that's when I started trying different speakers (I also kinda wanted to anyway for some reason so I guess that didn't help).


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> 6" diaphragm will start rolling off just around 600hz. 13500 (inches per second)/6 is 2250. Beaming *starts* at about a quarter wavelength the diameter of the cone.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


I suppose that's why so many people say a three-way sounds better and cross the woofers to mids around 400Hz-600Hz.


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