# Success with Small Midrange in Sail Panels?



## FunkPnut (May 16, 2008)

I'm curious for those that have tried putting a small midrange in their sail panels, what were the main challenges and ultimately how they sounded there?

I have a pair of GB25's and they don't require much airspace, so I'm thinking it might be a doable thing.

Basically my main thought is try to to eek out an additional bit of width compared to a-pillars.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

I thought the A-Pillar and the sail panel were the same thing?

And if you want a lot of width, just do crosstalk cancellation. You can get an image much wider than the car with that.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I thought the A-Pillar and the sail panel were the same thing?
> 
> And if you want a lot of width, just do crosstalk cancellation. You can get an image much wider than the car with that.


sail panels and a pillars arent the same. is the crosstalk cancellation refering to the thread you made a while ago with two drivers per side, but one playing an out of phase opposite side signal? yeah sounds interesting and all, but extremely inconvenient and impractical. 


as far as a traditional sail panel install, yes they can work very well. main challenges are getting them to fit. some cars have large sail panels, others dont.


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## FunkPnut (May 16, 2008)

I'd have to build mine out a bit, but I think I could make them still look pretty decent for what they are.

Seems the main trade off would probably be losing some depth.


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## FunkPnut (May 16, 2008)

Patrick Bateman said:


> And if you want a lot of width, just do crosstalk cancellation. You can get an image much wider than the car with that.


For right now I want to focus on getting the front stage positioned and dialed in as best as possible first.

But I have read your thread on Crazy Wide Soundstage. Interesting read. Keep it up!


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

SkizeR said:


> sail panels and a pillars arent the same. is the crosstalk cancellation refering to the thread you made a while ago with two drivers per side, but one playing an out of phase opposite side signal? yeah sounds interesting and all, but extremely inconvenient and impractical.
> 
> 
> as far as a traditional sail panel install, yes they can work very well. main challenges are getting them to fit. some cars have large sail panels, others dont.


You can do crosstalk cancellation with extra speakers, like Polk does.
Or you can do it with a processor, like miniambio does.

Either one works.

The advantage of what I did in that thread is that it doesn't screw up the bass very much. (When you do crosstalk cancellation, you get a crazy wide stage, but you also lose bass, because you're mixing in an inverted signal.)



Probably the optimum solution would be some type of knob that would allow you to 'dial-in' the cancellation. Plus, fiddling with knobs is fun.









Something like this, but a physical device, not a piece of software. I suppose you could achieve it with a Windows touchscreen tablet, though sliders are easier to manipulate on a tablet than knobs.


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## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

The biggest improvement for my setup was it raised my sound stage. I don't want where I sit to be center sound stage, but I want it at the center of the dash. This works well for me.


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## olDIY (Dec 9, 2015)

OP, I've been wondering almost the same thing. I'm wondering if a 3" or even 2" full range modded into the sails on axis might be a good move. (My understanding is sails are in the doors, where mirror hardware is blanked out.) It's where Honda put my CR-V tweets. 

I now have an extra set of sail trims and feel a modding project coming on! Can I run tweeterless with a driver like this Vifa NE65W?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

olDIY said:


> OP, I've been wondering almost the same thing. I'm wondering if a 3" or even 2" full range modded into the sails on axis might be a good move. (My understanding is sails are in the doors, where mirror hardware is blanked out.) It's where Honda put my CR-V tweets.
> 
> I now have an extra set of sail trims and feel a modding project coming on! Can I run tweeterless with a driver like this Vifa NE65W?


Looking at the frequency response of the Vifa NE65W compared to other similarly sized and priced drivers, I think it makes an excellent choice for on axis full range. 

I've done some modeling and comparisons with that driver and it does well in a small sealed enclosure (200 cc). I'm not sure how the distortion is down low, but ~45 watts with a 250 Hz LR4 HPF will get you just past Xmax. Bump the HPF up to 300 Hz and you can almost double the power. Again, this doesn't take distortion into account, so use your ears (or a good mic) to make sure distortion is in check.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

rton20s said:


> Looking at the frequency response of the Vifa NE65W compared to other similarly sized and priced drivers, I think it makes an excellent choice for on axis full range.
> 
> I've done some modeling and comparisons with that driver and it does well in a small sealed enclosure (200 cc). I'm not sure how the distortion is down low, but ~45 watts with a 250 Hz LR4 HPF will get you just past Xmax. Bump the HPF up to 300 Hz and you can almost double the power. Again, this doesn't take distortion into account, so use your ears (or a good mic) to make sure distortion is in check.


Here's something to consider:

















The NE65W has flat response on-axis, because it's well damped

















The SB Acoustics SB65 has a rising response, caused by that fabric dustcap that behaves like a tweeter or a whizzer at high frequency.

Basically the SB65 behaves like it has a whizzer attached to the cone, which causes a rising response at high frequency. This comes in handy with a full range, gives you some extra 'sparkle' up high, particularly if you're listening off-axis.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Best location I've tried in my car. Stage width and center focus is as good as it gets mounted like this.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Here's something to consider:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What is funny is that even before I posted that, I thought about the slightly more expensive SB65 specifically because of your posts about it. And especially your post regarding the behavior of the dustcap. Just for fun, here is a corrected manufacturer frequency response overlay between the NE65 and the SB65. 

NE65 On-Red, 30-Blue, 60-Green | SB65 On-Blue, 30-Green, 60-Red









For on axis response, I would probably choose the NE65, For power handling and output, I would probably go with the SB65. The SB65 might be better off axis as well, though tuning the dip at 10-15kHz preceding the peak at 15-20 kHz could prove fun.  In a similar 200cc enclosure, the SB65 is capable of probably an additional 4 dB of output due to the higher Xmax (2.6mm vs 1.7mm) but will need more power to do so. The NE65 has efficiency on its side, but once you pour on the power, the SB 65 should shine.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Note that the SB Acoustics is significantly cheaper. I don't know how they sell these drivers this cheap.

My only real gripe with the SB65 is that it's ridiculously fragile, I destroyed both of my mine. It's so fragile, it's borderline useless, and I'm wondering if the current prices reflect that. (It used to sell for nearly twice as much.)


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Note that the SB Acoustics is significantly cheaper. I don't know how they sell these drivers this cheap.
> 
> My only real gripe with the SB65 is that it's ridiculously fragile, I destroyed both of my mine. It's so fragile, it's borderline useless, and I'm wondering if the current prices reflect that. (It used to sell for nearly twice as much.)


Whoa! No kidding. The pricing I had in my database is obviously WAY out of date. I had the NE65 at $28.00 ea and the SB65 at $33.50 ea. Pretty much a push, so choose the one that works best. Now the NE65 is out of stock at PE (due in tomorrow @ $32.95) and $33.15 at Madisound, while the SB65 is only $19.95 at Madisound. :surprised:

Do you think the fragility of the SB65 would be an issue for a typical DIYMA install? Someone mounting these in a door, on an A pillar or sail panel? IE, someone not going to the length of a Patrick Bateman and trying the same driver in 14 different iterations of horns and sausalito lenses?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I just took a look Vance Dickason's tests of both the SB65 and the NE65. Having done that, I would probably take the SB65 over the NE65 if you plan to play these things any lower than 1 kHz. 3rd Order distortion reaches more than 11% at 1 kHz at 88 dB at 1m on the NE65! Meanwhile, the SB65 doesn't exceed 6% THD all the way down to 200 Hz at 94 dB at 1m. And 3rd Order distortion doesn't exceed 2-3% below 1 kHz and is even better above 1 kHz on the SB65. It will probably be easier to EQ the top end frequency issues than deal with the higher distortion of higher crossover on the bottom end.


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## FunkPnut (May 16, 2008)

Hanatsu said:


> Best location I've tried in my car. Stage width and center focus is as good as it gets mounted like this.


Thats it, I'm building some pods! I dunno if you have any build pics?


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## FunkPnut (May 16, 2008)

What do you guys think of a completely sealed vs venting a bit into the door card to reduce overall physical size if need be?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

FunkPnut said:


> Thats it, I'm building some pods! I dunno if you have any build pics?


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## craiggus365 (Apr 5, 2009)

Hanatsu, those build pics are beautiful. Nice work sir!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Hanatsu said:


> Best location I've tried in my car. Stage width and center focus is as good as it gets mounted like this.


I bet those midranges are like listening to a symphony.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

rton20s said:


> Whoa! No kidding. The pricing I had in my database is obviously WAY out of date. I had the NE65 at $28.00 ea and the SB65 at $33.50 ea. Pretty much a push, so choose the one that works best. Now the NE65 is out of stock at PE (due in tomorrow @ $32.95) and $33.15 at Madisound, while the SB65 is only $19.95 at Madisound. :surprised:
> 
> Do you think the fragility of the SB65 would be an issue for a typical DIYMA install? Someone mounting these in a door, on an A pillar or sail panel? IE, someone not going to the length of a Patrick Bateman and trying the same driver in 14 different iterations of horns and sausalito lenses?


Here's what happened to me:

I soldered the terminal on the first one, and *poof*, the heat from the soldering iron melted the frame.

I spent about an hour repairing the damn frame with fiberglass and epoxy, cursing that stupid frame.

For the next one, I used terminals, to avoid melting the frame. As soon as I pushed the terminals on, the frame cracked in half.

It's seriously just a stupid stupid design. In twenty years of building speakers I've had this happen four times, and two of them were the same driver on the same day.

If you understand that the frame breaks with zero effort, it's a great driver, but if you don't...

I have a feeling they're blowing them out because they're probably getting a ****-ton of them RMA'd


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

rton20s said:


> I just took a look Vance Dickason's tests of both the SB65 and the NE65. Having done that, I would probably take the SB65 over the NE65 if you plan to play these things any lower than 1 kHz. 3rd Order distortion reaches more than 11% at 1 kHz at 88 dB at 1m on the NE65! Meanwhile, the SB65 doesn't exceed 6% THD all the way down to 200 Hz at 94 dB at 1m. And 3rd Order distortion doesn't exceed 2-3% below 1 kHz and is even better above 1 kHz on the SB65. It will probably be easier to EQ the top end frequency issues than deal with the higher distortion of higher crossover on the bottom end.


This has been my experience too. I literally have ten or twenty different drivers like this, and the only one that really sounds decent by itself is the Fostex FF85WK. I think it's "edge" is that it's a bit more sensitive than the competition; it's basically as loud as a pair of the competition.

For me, I don't think I could live with one of these drivers by themselves. Just too congested/colored at average listening levels. In an array they'd be fine.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Ouch. Good to know Patrick. So... spend double on a pair of Wavecor FR070WA01s? 

Power handling and Xmax fall right between the two and the testing in Voicecoil makes them seem pretty well sorted. Lower distortion like the SB65, but what appear to be even better waterfall plots. 

Or just spring for some GB25s like the OP.


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

Hanatsu, Those look great.
How do you remove the foam after you glass the pods? Is there some kind of solvent you use to melt it, or something?

OP, I just picked up some GB25's last week. I plan on putting them (sealed) along with some very small Dayton Audio ND16FA-6, both in my sails, but minivans have fairly good size sails. My concern with heavier drivers in the sails is how the inevitable door slams would effect the pod's strength and integrity. 

Side note, I wonder why they made the GB25 *2ohm* speakers, and the GB60 and GB10 are 4ohms?


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

Ive yet to see any of the gb25's in a 2 ohm version. I have only come across the 4 ohm versions?


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

Lorin said:


> Ive yet to see any of the gb25's in a 2 ohm version. I have only come across the 4 ohm versions?


I see they call it 4ohms nominal, but when i put a ohm meter on them i get 2.1 ohms. Their specs say the GB25 Revc: 2.3 Ω and the GB60 REvc is 3.4 ohms. I must be misunderstand how to measure something.


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## FunkPnut (May 16, 2008)

1fishman said:


> OP, I just picked up some GB25's last week. I plan on putting them (sealed) along with some very small Dayton Audio ND16FA-6, both in my sails, but minivans have fairly good size sails. My concern with heavier drivers in the sails is how the inevitable door slams would effect the pod's strength and integrity.


If the pod is built strong and attached securely... I don't _think_ its going to be a problem. But yes that is of some concern.

I'm thinking a rivnut to screw into.

I'm definitely interested in pics.


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## FunkPnut (May 16, 2008)

Hanatsu;3813833[URL=http://s1204.photobucket.com/user/Hanatsu2/media/Passat%20_%20NEW/20140927_163752_zpsbe088f75.jpg.html said:


> [/URL]


Those turned out very nice!


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

My old setup was mounted in the sails....but with a 4 inch driver I had weight worries.....so I mounted them on aluminum discs protruding through the plastic, bolted to the door metal.....


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## FunkPnut (May 16, 2008)

And how did you like those like that?


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## nstaln (Feb 11, 2009)

How small can one go sealed with a GB25? I would like to use pods.


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## FunkPnut (May 16, 2008)

nstaln said:


> How small can one go sealed with a GB25? I would like to use pods.


0.2 liters

pretty small


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## nstaln (Feb 11, 2009)

FunkPnut said:


> 0.2 liters
> 
> pretty small


Wow...that is tiny!

Podz it is.

Thanks.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

FunkPnut said:


> And how did you like those like that?


Pvc end caps, 4" and 1", mdf bracket, aluminum bar stock cut to depth into discs to clear trim, then threaded for machine screws......all wrapped up in stretchy cloth.....

Oops, didn't read close enough.....thought you asked how I did it......my bad, they were very good. Only reason I changed it up was boredom, and I was tired of my paper mids being exposed to rain while entering and exiting. The sound tho......I loved it.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I bet that German pod maker would love to have a conversation going on in this thread. He uses Delrin plastic or Aluminum, and can make them almost any size. Seems perfect for what you're talking about.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

My plan is to mount my BG planars in a similar manner. What type of mounting hardware did you guys use?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

nstaln said:


> How small can one go sealed with a GB25? I would like to use pods.


You can make sealed boxes really really small.
For my Aurasound Whispers I'm using an enclosure that's about the size of a marble, and it works fine. Naturally, there's a tradeoff, you lose low frequency output. But if you want to make it really really tiny, go for it.


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## FunkPnut (May 16, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> I bet that German pod maker would love to have a conversation going on in this thread. He uses Delrin plastic or Aluminum, and can make them almost any size. Seems perfect for what you're talking about.



Yeah I saw those. Look nice, but I like fabbing stuff up.


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## FunkPnut (May 16, 2008)

I had time over the weekend to finish and install my pods.

Hopefully have time to finish the tweeter pods this week.


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## Blu (Nov 3, 2008)

^^ Those look really nice! Well done. :thumbsup:


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## FunkPnut (May 16, 2008)

Thank you. A lot of sanding...


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

FunkPnut said:


> I had time over the weekend to finish and install my pods.
> 
> Hopefully have time to finish the tweeter pods this week.





Wow! Those turned out awesome!


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

I get enraged when I see people make these beautiful speakers that are beyond my skillset


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

FunkPnut said:


>


did this shape come about from pulling cloth or some other means? I really like how that shape turned out.


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## frontman (May 1, 2013)

Those look awesome - very inspiring!


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## Socalstangman (Sep 20, 2011)

Hanatsu, mad skills!!! I so wish I could learn to do this kind of work. Great job.


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## FunkPnut (May 16, 2008)

pocket5s said:


> did this shape come about from pulling cloth or some other means? I really like how that shape turned out.


Thanks!

I initially tried pulling cloth around the edges, but there's a part of the sail panel that gets pinched in the door when closed... I just couldn't get it to work.

I don't have any additional pictures because I was trying to get these done pretty quick. But here's the gist:

After setting the mounting ring in place with dowels, I used HVAC tape on the outside to get a shape.

I mixed resin, body filler and fiberglass mat powder (my local fiberglass shop took remnants of mat and grinded into a powdered sugar consistency).

That got dumped inside and swooshed around, just enough to create a hard skin (more was dumped in later to build additional strength).

HVAC tape removed and left an extremely sticky and ugly exterior (think shriveled up hotdog).

Smoothed out with body filler.

These really sucked to make, but I think they're unique and rock solid.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Nice. Thanks 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

1fishman said:


> Hanatsu, Those look great.
> How do you remove the foam after you glass the pods? Is there some kind of solvent you use to melt it, or something?


I was curious about this as well. Doesn't look like the outside was glassed(?). Maybe just filler on the outside to solidify the shape, then clear out enough foam and milkshake the inside?


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

I'm qurious as well. My tweeters have been sitting on my dash on top of rags for months. This is the first method that I feel like I may have a chance of being able to do. I'd love details.


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

FunkPnut said:


> I had time over the weekend to finish and install my pods.
> 
> Hopefully have time to finish the tweeter pods this week.


Boy that really looks great! what kind of finish is on that? bet it looks great with the grills on them.


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## FunkPnut (May 16, 2008)

Thanks!

Yeah I still haven't put the grills on!

The finish is SEM texture spray lightly sanded with 400 grit and finished with SEM Satin Black and some low luster clear.


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