# fabrication opinions



## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Hey guys let me ask your opinion on these 2 fabrications just installed in my car. 1st of all they were super expensive The sub enclosure was 2500 and I think the pillars are a little sloppy especially the tweeters. Am I right or am I just expecting too much?


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

sort of like asking a guy if the hooker you just banged was quality or not...

I mean, it's a personal decision.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Thanks I guess


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## Ryanu (Dec 1, 2012)

Finishing is quite decent, although I see some minor flaw on the tweeter pods. As for the sub enclosure, I wonder what have been done to get 2.5k?


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## ben54b (May 30, 2014)

Looks like their was a LOT of work in that subbox.


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## ccapil (Jun 1, 2013)

Looks good from the pics, but 2500 for a sub enclosure?!! Really


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Especially when I asked for a fiberglass enclosure that contoured the sides of my hatch. Don't get it. You guys will get the big picture later as soon as I have my car back just don't want to give details yet.


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## Ryanu (Dec 1, 2012)

Just would like to share how mine was done. The price is 2.5k total... but it is in Ringgit Malaysia.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Raynu you must have found an incredible bargain for that quality work for 2.5k. Unfortunately I spent a little over 8k for mine. I had a very popular and talented installer do mine just goes to show that the best isn't always the best.


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## BoomHz (Apr 20, 2007)

Did the 2500 include the subs,if not, I don't see it. If so then yeah. I've seen worse for A pillars, but what did you pay for that.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

No sir I paid for the subs separately from the box. price for all of it 3600. A-pillars cost 1100 without the focals.dont believe all the hype you hear about high end installers.


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## mires (Mar 5, 2011)

Can you take some better pics of the pillars? Looks like there may be something weird going on above the tweeter but it is hard to tell with that angle. The box looks like there is a lot of work in it but I definitely don't see $2,500 in it. Mind sharing who did the work?


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

8K for a system is up there, I think you could have got a lot less expensive work done but the fabrication might not have been as involved.

if you ask 10 installers to come in with a bid for what we see in the pics, I'd bet publicly they'd quote under 8K, but at the shop in a "consultation" the price goes up before you take your keys back from the dealer.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

I can't take more pics since I still haven't received my car back. I will give info about the installer but not until I get my car back. Believe it or not the shop has had my car going on 7 weeks now.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

You see my description of the box I wanted was easy it was to be a composite enclosure that was contoured to my hatch like it belonged from the manufacturer don't like big, boxy wooden enclosures. I would also like the subs to be faced slightly toward each other. Anyway this what I got. This started in November if you count all that I bet I'm up over 14k.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

poker11788 said:


> You see my description of the box I wanted was easy it was to be a composite enclosure that was contoured to my hatch like it belonged from the manufacturer don't like big, boxy wooden enclosures. I would also like the subs to be faced slightly toward each other. Anyway this what I got. This started in November if you count all that I bet I'm up over 14k.


you'll get some sympathy, it's why DIY is so popular, we as a buying public don't want 14K to slip out of our hands just to get what we want.


however, shaming the shop that did this to you, may not go over that great either.

shops on here, and there are quite a few, have each other's back and will definitely provide justification for price and time spent, it's the nature of the business end of it.


in a way, I'm glad threads like this come along once in a while, as it gives people the bump they need to get a saw and some MDF and start cutting, and by watching a few tutorial/videos, make their own version.


personally, I wouldn't spend 500 bucks on a box like that, if it was sitting on a showroom floor ready to drop in place.

but I'm as cheap as they come, too.


maybe you'll let your decision to get a top tier install override your now hesitation at the cost, later on down the line.


I'd get used to it, more than ***** about it, but that too, is a personal choice.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Agreed makes sense no more complain maybe I should just let it slide even though it's still a hard pill to swallow


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## yogegoy (Feb 11, 2011)

I hope it's sounds good, I don't know how much would sound perfect.


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## butterMilk (Jan 27, 2014)

2500$ is a lot for a sub box. But there is a lot of detail going on there. Looks like you asked for something close to show quality. 

Whats a high end installer charge per hour? Probably around 100$. So that like 2-3 days work, sounds about right.

Did you not ask for a quote before hand? Looks like on the sub box they could have put less detail and cut the price in half?

And for the A pillars, they always look kind of funny (sloppy) to me. I guess usually there isn't much room for speakers there.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

butterMilk said:


> 2500$ is a lot for a sub box.


Hell yeah it is!!! especially since a box is a 6 sided device with all right angles. Now $2500 for a show quality fiberglass sub woofer ENCLOSURE..... Thats about right.


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## butterMilk (Jan 27, 2014)

theoldguy said:


> Hell yeah it is!!! especially since a box is a 6 sided device with all right angles. Now $2500 for a show quality fiberglass sub woofer ENCLOSURE..... Thats about right.


Oh no he didn't!


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

i think that most shops would charge 500~1000 dollars for a pair of pillars anywhere. add the fact that they wrapped it, and they had to do tweeters and mids - i can see why. it looks like its on the top end of the cost scale, but for a shop that sells focal im sure they think you can afford it too.

as for the sub enclosure, personally i dont like it that much. so $2500 would make me upset if i had asked for something and presented with nothing like what i had asked for, as it seems in your case. be that as it may, it does look like a LOT of time went into building that enclosure. it is not a simple box with some trim panels, it looks to be made of wood\composite. it looks like it was vinyl wrapped in two colors, it looks like it conforms to the car.

i mean, 7+ weeks is kind of a long time for an install... and $14k+ is _a lot for a car audio install_... i hope that is the total cost including speakers and everything.

i could not fathom spending more on the audio install than i did on the entire car (my car costed 12k when i bought it)... but i guess if you have the money they will know it.

if you dont have the money, you do DIY like the rest of us lol.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

$2500 isn't bad for that enclosure. Many shops do not even begin to get into custom fabrication work for less than $1k. Most people on here would say it is steep, but most people here DIY to save money that a shop would've charged or to allow quality control be in their hands. Any one that has truly worked in the industry has probably sold an enclosure like that for $600 - $3k... A lot depends on the customer. If you come in saying you've got a 10k budget, most sales guys will try to come in just under it... The will discount an item or two to make you feel good about the deal, but the bottom line is they need to get cars in and out to make money... The best strategy is to research, negotiate, and clearly set expectations when dealing with a shop... If you are not happy, any decent shop will work to make it right... But if the did eveything you asked and you just have buyers remorse, then tough cookie.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

OK I'm not not a master by any means, but I know composite when I see it and I see none on this enclosure. It's simply wood with a little bond on the edges to smooth it out and does not conform to my car and I sure don't have buyers remorse. Just like everyone has been saying stop complaining. All in all when everything boils down, the joke is on me.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

poker11788 said:


> Hey guys let me ask your opinion on these 2 fabrications just installed in my car. 1st of all they were super expensive The sub enclosure was 2500 and I think the pillars are a little sloppy especially the tweeters. Am I right or am I just expecting too much?


$2500, as in dollars? is it made of gold? I wouldnt let anything go at that price.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

I don't have a ton of cash but I've been saving for a couple years and I don't mind spending if I love it. Like I said I haven't picked it up yet. When I do I'll try to explain the way I feel and see if he takes it back.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

I've never had shop work done so I can't speak about price, but I can say that for that kind of money you should certainly get what you want. If there are things you are not happy with bring it up to them, they should be willing to accommodate you.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

was there a drawing or design plan in writing before work began? Verbal contracts will be hard to argue here. Just trying to think of thigns you might face when confronting the shop.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

No drawing, but tons of emails back and forth explaining what I wanted. The only pic I received is after the enclosure was finished about 3 weeks after the 1st pic was requested.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Just to let you know the 14k purchased this setup.
Stinger spp1500d, dc power 270 amp alt, pioneer 8500bhs, audison voce av 5.1k, audison voce due, audison bit ten d, 2× jl 10th version 3 and focal krx's.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

I'm sorry I meant jl 10 w6v3's


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## mklett33 (Dec 7, 2009)

Im familiar with the way these kind of shops handle business and Im sure that 2500 is not only for the box, but the rest of the hatch build. So we are talking about amp rack mods, fabrication, lighting, the works. Not just that box shown on the table. 

In regards to the box, from someone that has an idea how it was built, that's not an ordinary box, that is an absolute master piece and I would give my left nut to have that in my car. You're getting something wayyyyyy more involved and intricate in that box than what you would have got with a box thats molded to the side panels with slight angles to the sub orientation. There are like no hard corners on that box! It is gorgeous! I would actually be pretty stoked man because it looks like they are hooking you up. I have never seen anything like that, but I have seen a million side molded enclosures.

In regards to the A Pillars pictures can be funny, I don't really see the "imperfections" at all though! Those look gorgeous too! 

Idk man, I think you are getting a pretty sweet deal, and that build is AWESOME.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

I agree with what Mark said above, there's a lot more to that box than you think. I could easily start to add up how much materials cost for that box between the MDF, duraglass, glue, vinyl, etc. To build a box like that takes specialty tools and training which all costs money. Shops have to charge a premium to cover their own out-of-pocket expenses to create artwork for the customer like that. I do think you got a beautiful enclosure, one of the nicest MDF ones I've seen on this site ever. You should find a lot of comfort in that last comment, I've been around and I'm not easily excited. Wait to see it in person and in the car before you feel let down... lighting in the pics may be the real issue you see...


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

Its also pretty crappy that you are judging them based on pictures and came crying right to the forum without seeing the results first. It also doesnt sound like you have talked to the fabricator/installer at all about your concerns. What is the purpose of this thread exactly? Is it to say "look at me I have money to spend" or is it something else?


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

To tell you the truth I'm not sure what's your reason here. Maybe to tell me I'm wrong about the box. To tell me there's duraglass on that enclosure that i dont see. Also to be kind of a d*ck to me because I'm I'm trying to rub people's faces in that I'm spending money no one gave me anything I saved up by breaking my ass at work. I've also had the decency not to mention or hint about the shop or it's owner because I'd like to see it installed. The last post either knows this person or is this person with all the details that were mentioned in the last post that I never talked about in this forum.


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## mklett33 (Dec 7, 2009)

poker11788 said:


> To tell you the truth I'm not sure what's your reason here. Maybe to tell me I'm wrong about the box. To tell me there's duraglass on that enclosure that i dont see. Also to be kind of a d*ck to me because I'm I'm trying to rub people's faces in that I'm spending money no one gave me anything I saved up by breaking my ass at work. I've also had the decency not to mention or hint about the shop or it's owner because I'd like to see it installed. The last post either knows this person or is this person with all the details that were mentioned in the last post that I never talked about in this forum.


I dont think this post I quoted was really directed at me, but your thread is in fact titled "fabrication opinions". Again my opinion is you are getting one hell of a build dude, I'd be excited.  Stay positive! I would venture to say there is definitely some "Duraglass" (Actually its probably Matter or Mass, similar to duraglass, but a way better product) on that box. 

Again though, you asked for opinions, you're going to get them! Mine are positive though I'd say your getting something to be proud of that is worth that hard earned coin! No doubt you spent that money, I don't really think you're trying to brag, just giving all the details, but I think you are getting your moneys worth.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

poker11788 said:


> To tell you the truth I'm not sure what's your reason here. Maybe to tell me I'm wrong about the box. To tell me there's duraglass on that enclosure that i dont see. Also to be kind of a d*ck to me because I'm I'm trying to rub people's faces in that I'm spending money no one gave me anything I saved up by breaking my ass at work. I've also had the decency not to mention or hint about the shop or it's owner because I'd like to see it installed. The last post either knows this person or is this person with all the details that were mentioned in the last post that I never talked about in this forum.



I have no idea what shop you used nor do I know any installers. But I am aware how the business works. As already mentioned by someone else, there is a lot more that you are paying for than just an enclosure. factored in to the price of everything sold at the store/install shop are lease/rent, materials, training provided to the employees, install materials (glue, razor blades, tape, fiberglass, resin, etc...), tools and tool accessories (bits, templates, etc) and many other items. If you felt the price was too high, it should have been negotiated before agreeing to any work performed. 

Definitely not trying to be a dick here but this type of thing is very out of place for the forum. You came to a DIY (do it yourself) forum and are talking about how you arent pleased with the end result (that you havent even seen in person yet) after dropping 14 large. Just seems to me like you are trying to "brag" a bit that you have a large amount of money on a nicety. You have to remember that the majority of people on this site are looking to save money by performing the work themselves.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

This industry is very small when it comes to the level of fabrication required to pull off your box... It didn't take me much to quickly pin point who did the build. I know for sure I've never met him, talked to him, or anyone at the shop, ect... And yes someone else has chimed in that has more details, because he knows the builder. You've basically confirmed that the $2500 was not just for this, that it included lights, panels, ect... Basically you said I paid $2500 for the box... You left out pretty important details, like what else the $2500 covered. People formed opinions based on the limited info you provided... The duraglass thing cracks me up, to quote you "I know composite when I see it"... What exactly were you expecting to see? MDF is technically a composite... Composites in layman's terms means "made up from a bunch of elements".


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## Fronty2011 (May 19, 2012)

If that enclosure was built like I think it was then $2,500 is justifiable to me. The pillars look good to me, what flaws exactly are you guys seeing? And if the build is not done then how can we give you an honest opinion on the end cost? We cant!


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## mklett33 (Dec 7, 2009)

Fronty2011 said:


> If that enclosure was built like I think it was then $2,500 is justifiable to me. The pillars look good to me, what flaws exactly are you guys seeing? And if the build is not done then how can we give you an honest opinion on the end cost? We cant!


Wheres the "like" button? epper:


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

this thread is going better than I first expected.

the thing with artistic license, is that you are putting your trust in an installer's ability to transform materials into your vision, and yet you hand him a blind fold while you are dictating what that vision consists of.

I wouldn't say a joke has been played here at all, I would say that at the upper scale of installs by top tier shops, you will be dealt their version of your idea, and deciding after the fact that their version is not your idea, is too late.

I may not ever be in a position where I feel like 2 years of saving equates to a 14K system, that's not how I go through life.

but you entered the big-boy world of higher end installs, and it sounds like you're closer to the mean, average by second-guessing the work, or the detail, or the price.

big-boy world of high end is not so concerned with price, as long as there's some value to the consumer along with profit to the shop.

did you shop your install to more than one place?

if you just went to your shop and had basically no other viable alternative in your town, that's one thing but when you spend the kind of money you did, it makes sense to get a second opinion before the surgeon starts cutting.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

I just saw this box posted on instagram when it was being built. I think it looks good


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

If you want people to agree with you about the flaws in your pillars, you're going to have to learn how to take a better picture than that. The pillars look fine to me, but your pic looks like an Impressionist painting of a tree. 

I watched your enclosure come into being, I know what's into it, I know the quality in it, so you're not getting any agreement from me at all about how "simple" it is. It's a gorgeous and high-quality enclosure, and if you had posted it on here without the complaining, you would have had a lot of forum members telling you how badass it is.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

ccapil said:


> Looks good from the pics, but 2500 for a sub enclosure?!! Really


No. Not really. He's using the figure for the trunk build and applying it only to the sub enclosure in the pic.


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## Iancredible (Sep 29, 2009)

poker11788 said:


> To tell you the truth I'm not sure what's your reason here. Maybe to tell me I'm wrong about the box. To tell me there's duraglass on that enclosure that i dont see. Also to be kind of a d*ck to me because I'm I'm trying to rub people's faces in that I'm spending money no one gave me anything I saved up by breaking my ass at work. I've also had the decency not to mention or hint about the shop or it's owner because I'd like to see it installed. The last post either knows this person or is this person with all the details that were mentioned in the last post that I never talked about in this forum.


What do you care what's "on the enclosure" ... it looks awesome. That's not a run of the mill box. That's not a run of the mill install. 

Judging a box sitting on a table is somewhat silly. Once its in the car you might feel like a total ass for posting this stuff. 

Did you have the shop make just the pillars and the enclosure or did they do the entire car? Wiring, full install etc? 

Its the internet; Ill bet you the cost of the box that the Installer your "questioning" knows this post exists. 

How many hours do you think he has in that install? I would estimate at least 25 in just fabrication. My old shop charges $100/hr .. IN LABOR ONLY. Not counting on materials, paint etc


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

OK you guys are way off your mark. I never said my installer was a profiteer or bad at his job or a bad person. It seems to me that most of you are trying stand behind or protect him. Can't you see there's nothing to protect him from. I never said a.bad word about him if I was trying to mess up his reputation I would've mention him by name. On top of it all he's an artist and I respect him. This thread wasn't supposed to be about questioning someone's integrity. I simply wanted to know if the community had an answer for "is this enclosure worth 2500 bucks" coming in I knew it was beautiful, a piece of art for sure. My question was this is what I wanted and this is what I got, is it worth it or not. As far as mdf technically being a composite. So is fiberglass also mdf as well? Kind of a smart alec of a question. I was simply for glass on the enclosure. Now shedding some light on the I've left out important details it's all included for 2500 I was under the impression that I was charged separately for the modification of the rack if it's changed then happy day. My last thought was brought to my attention that nobody can afford to have my system on this forum and I shouldn't tell people that I can. I am definitely an idiot since I didn't realize that diy stood for do it yourself I just thought this forum was comprised of cool, interesting audio heads sharing their stuff.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Iancredible said:


> What do you care what's "on the enclosure" ... it looks awesome. That's not a run of the mill box. That's not a run of the mill install.
> 
> Judging a box sitting on a table is somewhat silly. Once its in the car you might feel like a total ass for posting this stuff.
> 
> ...


The reason I asked about the fiberglass is because that's what I wanted? Good enough?


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Listen bottom line if I get the car and the install gives me a holy **** whack to the head, then you have my word I'll be back to kiss some serious ASS!!!!


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

poker11788 said:


> Listen bottom line if I get the car and the install gives me a holy **** whack to the head, then you have my word I'll be back to kiss some serious ASS!!!!


I think you were fine in your questioning the price of the system and it's parts.

You're not in the business of fine-tuning price/performance/materials/labor costs, that's for the shop to decide, you just wanted some honest opinions on your outlay.

and that's where we all differ to some extent, I can value a system's parts logically but I've never been in the "here's a check, do it" crowd, and I think this place is as you've described, people who like to discuss audio, however...

it's not a place where most people are handing over checks, it's a place with plenty of people doing the work and there's a huge shop element that peppers our imaginations with fine work, but the focus is still mostly on DIY.


there's been quite a few discussions of shop "work" and disappointment, so your thread falls naturally in the category, even if it doesn't quite match up with a complainer directive.


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## Fronty2011 (May 19, 2012)

I have seen the progress of many builds and I stand there looking at it and cant for the life of me picture the end result. When I see the end result I'm like "holy ****" that is bad ass. It's never a good idea to judge before the job is done because you might end up with your foot in your mouth. Dont rush perfection either, there is alot that goes into a build like that and when you complain about the time its taking then you rush the installer and might miss out on some details that can make a big difference. Most installers of this caliber go above and beyond your expectations and dont like you to see anything untill its done so they see that look on your face when you pick it up. I had some audio upgraded in my car before and it was at a shop for three months 

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## Iancredible (Sep 29, 2009)

poker11788 said:


> The reason I asked about the fiberglass is because that's what I wanted? Good enough?[/QUOTE
> 
> Just by looking at it I can tell there is fiberglass used. But its not 100% fiberglass. The sheer man hours to get some of the straight lines to well be straight while using fiberglass and FIBERGLASS alone is pretty hard.
> 
> ...


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Thanks for understanding me. It's funny you said top installers don't wanna let you see what they have until it's completed so you are completely in awe. Since its been a long time coming I always call and ask for progress pics but he always says the same thing " I wanna surprise you just trust me" I guess I better start.


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## Fronty2011 (May 19, 2012)

poker11788 said:


> Thanks for understanding me. It's funny you said top installers don't wanna let you see what they have until it's completed so you are completely in awe. Since its been a long time coming I always call and ask for progress pics but he always says the same thing " I wanna surprise you just trust me" I guess I better start.


I know how hard it is to wait and not see the progress but its better to be surprised. And like I mentioned before, I have looked and builds in progress and could not picture the end result and they looked blah to me. Then I see the finished build and am in awe. Thats part of the reason most fabricators whether it be a car or an audio install dont want you to see an unfinished product.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

But Again asking "is $2500 right for this" and only showing pictures of a pillar and a box on a workbench is asking for either a flame war or misinterpretation of your intent. 

Yes I know the shop that did it, yes I know the guy, yes I work in the industry, yes I have his back, yes he is one of the FEW people I would trust with any project I am working on.[/QUOTE]

It's not me misrepresenting my intent it's you. I've already stated my intent. I just wanted to know if this enclosure was worth it or not. I surely did not start talking crap about my guy or anything like that. You guys surely don't have to shove your opinions down my throat and try to make me feel stupid that I don't anything about installing I know a bunch of broad strokes and trying to beat me into submission is not gonna work. As soon as I realized that this might be considered to be an insult or attack toward him I immediately wrote him an email apologizing repeatedly for not thinking it through before I posted half finished pics in the forums and that i did feel like an ass So just stop over reacting. Oh yea no idea what a flame war is either.


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## Iancredible (Sep 29, 2009)

poker11788 said:


> It's not me misrepresenting my intent it's you. I've already stated my intent. I just wanted to know if this enclosure was worth it or not. I surely did not start talking crap about my guy or anything like that. You guys surely don't have to shove your opinions down my throat and try to make me feel stupid that I don't anything about installing I know a bunch of broad strokes and trying to beat me into submission is not gonna work. As soon as I realized that this might be considered to be an insult or attack toward him I immediately wrote him an email apologizing repeatedly for not thinking it through before I posted half finished pics in the forums and that i did feel like an ass So just stop over reacting. Oh yea no idea what a flame war is either.


No ones is over reacting here; Im trying to help you have a deeper understanding of what you did. Especially if you dont understand the terminology "flame war"


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

poker11788 said:


> As far as mdf technically being a composite. So is fiberglass also mdf as well? Kind of a smart alec of a question. I was simply for glass on the enclosure.


I'm not going to try to educate you on the erroneous nature of your above comment or illogical thought process... 

In all seriousness, what acoustical, cosmetic, structural, ect advantages do you know of that made you insist of having a fiberglass enclosure? Maybe you can educate all of us, we do love to learn things here. 

Bottom line here, yes the box was well worth what you paid. Give him time to finish before you question any of it. Quality work only comes from quality people. This guy is not a hack.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Your right I don't know what a flame is war why don't you enlighten me. I know you think this was a huge personal attack against a well established and artistic installer and if it was thought as such my apologies. Like i said i wrote him letting him know that i posted pics asking if people thought it was worth it and if i insulted him then i sincerely apologize. But if this forum doesn't want any questions regarding an install from an impartial audience. Then I'll never bring it up again.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

fact - there is way too much misinformation in this thread

fact - this thread is useless


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Old guy I appreciate your honesty and I couldn't agree more. I had a simple idea to start with and it triggered a ridiculous thread.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

i want to remain fully objective here...so i will say this one thing.

fiberglass is NOT somehow a better or more advanced or complicated or more time consuming task than MDF. it is simply another way to do things, sometimes it works better, some times mdf is better.

a lot of people think mdf and then think a square box or something similar, advanced MDF fabrication is extremely time consuming and requires a TON of time and precision to pull off correctly. Infact, my favorite shop build of all time was a SL done by the crew of advancedaudiodesigns in MA that was almost entirely out of MDF...

the ability to shape and contour mdf to create an organic design and shape is very complex and something i have really yet to master.

so all i ask is that you dont see mdf and think, well that was so easy. 

its like this...back when i was in college, we had a class called "advanced Algera I", and all my computer science and engineering friends were complaining how hard it is...i was like...for real??!? algebra? i learned that in Highschool! then they showed me a book and it read like Egyptian to me (and i had a 800 on my math sat)... 

truth is, no one can tell you if its worth it except yourself, unless its a horrible hack job in which case we can all tell you no amount of savings is worth it.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

well to be fair, the ridiculousness occurred because of the misinformation that was provided to us from you. You cant ask if something is worth a price and then down the line say that other things were included in the price. It also isnt fair to state that you arent happy with something that you havent even seen yet. Hence the uselessness of the thread. 




/thread


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

simplicityinsound said:


> its like this...back when i was in college, we had a class called "advanced Algera I"



good thing it wasnt advanced English 

But yes, couldnt agree with you more. to add, it takes a lot of MDF to get complex. Lots of wasted MDF when getting created. Not wasted in the sense that mistakes were made, but wasted when having to use multiple layers to build a profile and keep certain curves or shapes.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

theoldguy said:


> good thing it wasnt advanced English


you mean advanced engrish? i aced that!!!


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

simplicityinsound said:


> you mean advanced engrish? i aced that!!!


I thought maybe youd say it was slang for Aljazeera.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

You got it no more misinformation from me. I'm all out of uselessness. I know when I'm beaten' maybe we'll talk down the road on a different subject.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

Poker, you did the right thing by getting a hold of your builder early on and have done the right thing by trying to diffuse things on here. Kudos to you for handling this volatile situation well. 

Just to recap, the price is fare if you understand what it really took to craft that thing and you are happy with the end result.

And from a spectators POV, that is a sexy enclosure.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

here is another photo, stolen from the CAF/porsche9901 instagram account.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

That's a pretty badassed install so far. That enclosure is pretty sweet. I will have to go and see if I can find the build pictures of it.

I'm not seeing any problems with the pillars either.

And Bing, you are right...that SL build was sweet. Maybe we could find some pictures of it to show folks what you are talking about?

I would much rather have something tasteful, well built, and well finished than a fiberglass volcano in the trunk...anyone can build volcanos, but what you have is soooo much more than that. It probably is so much more than what you think you are seeing. without having a back ground in fabrication, not to slight you, you probably don't really know what exactly you are looking at.


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## Fronty2011 (May 19, 2012)

TheDavel said:


> here is another photo, stolen from the CAF/porsche9901 instagram account.


Oh hell yeah! That definitely took some time to build, and a lot of wasted MDF to do it. And that thing is probably more solid the a fiberglass enclosure.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## Iancredible (Sep 29, 2009)

poker11788 said:


> I can't take more pics since I still haven't received my car back. I will give info about the installer but not until I get my car back. Believe it or not the shop has had my car going on 7 weeks now.


Hard to get a car back, or complain about the time it takes to get finished when 

You know the alternator *you ordered* hasn't arrived yet. 

Dominic you need to tell the whole story or remove this post


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## Fronty2011 (May 19, 2012)

Iancredible said:


> Hard to get a car back, or complain about the time it takes to get finished when
> 
> You know the alternator *you ordered* hasn't arrived yet.
> 
> Dominic you need to tell the whole story or remove this post


Lol, this just keeps getting better.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Now that I've read back into the early parts of this thread I am embarrased. I realize now what an a**hole I was, putting the info out there with sarcasm. It did sound like an attack. Didn't know I actually put down the man. There's just a very high stress level involved in this whole process. I keep 2nd guessing everything. Don't make an opinion of me based on this thread alone.


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## Iancredible (Sep 29, 2009)

poker11788 said:


> Now that I've read back into the early parts of this thread I am embarrased. I realize now what an a**hole I was, putting the info out there with sarcasm. It did sound like an attack. Didn't know I actually put down the man. There's just a very high stress level involved in this whole process. I keep 2nd guessing everything. Don't make an opinion of me based on this thread alone.


Dude my opinion is based on this response right here

you admited a mistake ... your legit dude

no one is perfect everyone makes mistakes. Ive been building since I was 14 and have learned alot and made plenty of mistakes. 

Trust me dude, Youll be all smiles when you pick it up. Id trust your shop choice with any of my customers


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

I can only assume that's you calling me dominic. You know we've had a rough time with the alt part of this build. This is the 3rd alt ordered and mistakes we're made. I believe you would be just as frustrated. Can you remove it I don't know how. Sorry Jon talk to you soon.


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## Iancredible (Sep 29, 2009)

poker11788 said:


> I can only assume that's you calling me dominic. You know we've had a rough time with the alt part of this build. This is the 3rd alt ordered and mistakes we're made. I believe you would be just as frustrated. Can you remove it I don't know how. Sorry Jon talk to you soon.


I'm not Jon, I'm not Affiliated with that shop at all 

Do I know and trust the shop you hired ... 100% without a doubt


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

Admitting mistakes makes u a great guy in my book... I think this thread should stay... A lot can be learned from it.


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## J.novak (Jan 18, 2014)

If there are more picture of this build, I'd sure like to see them. Everything I've seen so far looks of a very high quality.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Then why use my name when I never mentioned his. Now when you mention my personal name and know ALL the intimate details of my build you would think I might assume that's him. When is this gonna stop I've already apologized to no end. I've stopped complaining about it. I don't know what else to do. Brow beat me if it makes you feel better. I already have my answers to my original questions. Let me know how to remove the thread and I'll get right on it.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

I can't say everyone is like me, but if I had saved for, and committed 14K to a car audio install my inclination would be to wonder if I was a little crazy, and put unnecessary scrutiny on the build as it went along.

because I have no business now spending 14K on a car system, I've lived long enough to know that other parts of my life would suffer, other people would suffer.

Maybe there was a moment or two, over the 3 decades of driving life where I could have absorbed it, but even as a single person(in a relationship) and no offspring, not happening.

So the teachable moment of this thread, may be to dissuade those who at first blush, get excited over the prospect of a custom jam, to reconsider their commitment. Installers like getting work, sales people work on commission, shop owners' job is to get people to commit to a frivolity, a non-necessity.

IOW, make sure you're in it for the right reasons, and aren't possibly going to regret it later on.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Kinda goofy but my wife calls it my mid crisis


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

poker11788 said:


> Kinda goofy but my wife calls it my mid crisis


you must do okay if your wife knows you're blowing 14K on a system and still talks to you...

but yeah, I think the thread may have reached a plateau.

And it kinda pains me to see you want the thread gone, because there aren't enough like it here.

Usually the dissatisfaction with an install is more visible, here it appears you're square in line with what the industry expects to charge for this level of install.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

She's the coolest wife in the world!! Unfortunately the fun has to end sometime. Please help me delete this thread. Any directions please?


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

poker11788 said:


> She's the coolest wife in the world!! Unfortunately the fun has to end sometime. Please help me delete this thread. Any directions please?


there may be too much usable content to help others, for an admin or moderator to allow you to erase the thread, but you could have it closed, possibly.


then it just goes away gracefully, and doesn't make an appearance unless someone is reminded of it, which is pretty good too.


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## Iancredible (Sep 29, 2009)

poker11788 said:


> Then why use my name when I never mentioned his. Now when you mention my personal name and know ALL the intimate details of my build you would think I might assume that's him. When is this gonna stop I've already apologized to no end. I've stopped complaining about it. I don't know what else to do. Brow beat me if it makes you feel better. I already have my answers to my original questions. Let me know how to remove the thread and I'll get right on it.


Becuase I called and asked him who that enclosure was for, I knew the minute you posted it who built it. Jon's response was "a local customer named Dominic"

That's the extent of information I have 

Like I said dude, it's all good you "manned up" no harm no foul you have my respect (if that means anything to you)


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

It does mean something. I only hope i can gain his respect back. Let's put this thread to rest I'll be back to show the finished build.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

Just a heads up to lock a thread, you may e-mail a mod/admin or use the report post icon that looks somewhat like a yield sign over to the left there... or you could do it the worst way and violate a forum rule, but I am not suggesting that.


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## Fronty2011 (May 19, 2012)

poker11788 said:


> Then why use my name when I never mentioned his. Now when you mention my personal name and know ALL the intimate details of my build you would think I might assume that's him. When is this gonna stop I've already apologized to no end. I've stopped complaining about it. I don't know what else to do. Brow beat me if it makes you feel better. I already have my answers to my original questions. Let me know how to remove the thread and I'll get right on it.


 most of us have the know how to look at other threads you have started about this build and see his name mentioned. He only said your first name and its not like your some high profile person that everybody is going to know and this story will end up on TMZ. Good on you for admitting you jumped the gun though.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

TheDavel said:


> Just a heads up to lock a thread, you may e-mail a mod/admin or use the report post icon that looks somewhat like a yield sign over to the left there... or you could do it the worst way and violate a forum rule, but I am not suggesting that.


Already texted administration no one has gotten back to me yet. It's been awhile. If you can shoot me a private message when you can.


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## leepersc (Sep 23, 2009)

poker11788 said:


> Already texted administration no one has gotten back to me yet. It's been awhile. If you can shoot me a private message when you can.


Hey Poker, you have all the respect I can possibly give someone that I don't personally know! You have repeatedly attempted to explain your reasoning for the thread and many have continued to "brow beat" you. You did what more than the average would do and attempted to apologize for others hurt feelings and judgements about you. I respect you highly for your approach. You have spent a **** load of cash on this install and, in my opinion, deserve the right to question things. Afterall, you are a customer of a business that you are paying money for a product. I am on your side completely. To answer your original post, I personally would not be able to pay $2500 for the box you showed. Whatever the rest of the details are, oh well. It's your post on a forum to which you are a member. Your right to have free speech etc. Long post I know, I just had to chime in after reading all of the other responses. You have handled yourself as a respectable MAN and I applaud that. That is all, good luck to you!


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

Update: Here is the amazing install!
Kudos to Jon Webb for knocking this out of the park!


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## THEDUKE (Aug 25, 2008)

Just saw the built pics on Facebook and I would say you paid too little.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

I told myself that I would never right on this thread again. It didn't feel good to get smashed into oblivion by members who wouldn't really listen to my story but I just can't let the above post go unanswered. Look I'm not gonna say anything about Jon's skills their probably masterful but what do I know is that people have been saying that it's show quality. The huge problem that I had was that I didn't want a show build. I explained over and over and over that I wanted an install that contoured to my hatch and a plexiglass floor for the amps lighted so you can see it.That's it! So davel when your done kissing Jon's butt why don't you come by my house take out the show quality box which you can keep and build me the box that I want. I understand your a exceptional fabricator.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

We will never know what was said between you and the builder. Communication would seem to be the issue you had with the build and I think we can all agree that its a two way street. It sucks you didn't get the vision that was in your head.

But you did get a very sick install!!!


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

I'm decent, but not as good as Jon. Sorry to hear it's not what you wanted. If it's not and you stressed your expectations up front, then that just sucks and you should work with Jon to resolve. Seems like both parties lost on this build. I don't know Jon, I have nothing to gain from kissing his ass, I just try to protect fabricators and installers in the industry. Forums get out of hand and think that a business is out to screw people, when in reality they are just people trying to get by. I hope you the best in resolving this and in the mean time hope at a minimum you are happy with the sound.


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## Fronty2011 (May 19, 2012)

I think it looks classy and one of a kind but It sounds like you wanted some fiberglass enclosure from the 90's. Plus, fiberglass and lighting is usually show quality.


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## The ///Man (Oct 6, 2014)

How does it sound? I mean, its an audio system.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Well like I said the tweeters pop while the music is playing. Also when I was driving home the whole thing crapped out. All the components turned off. However I did not try to contact them as of yet I'll call and talk to them Monday. It really could be anything. Some thing faulty or perhaps a battery I only have 1.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

If you have a full/da Audison system I know what is causing your tweeters to pop. It's product related, not install. The whole thing crapping out sounds suspect . It may be your fuses or your vehicles charging systems inability to manage the load. Can you give a little more info about it crapping out? What exactly did it do?


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

yes I have a full/da setup supposed to be active but I haven't checked that yet. Ok I was driving home and all of a sudden the sound turns off. I push the pause play button and it plays for 5 seconds. Then my drc kept turning on and off. Weird thing is when the drc had power to it there were no words a\b bass treble nothing. The last thing that went is the head unit went completely black I couldn't even power it up to take it out of the car.


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## rayray881 (Jul 15, 2013)

not bashing anyones work and don't know what the discussed plan was, but I don't like how the box integrates with that layout either. Just looks out of place to me. If there is an issue with it not playing, take it back to them and let them figure it out!


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Amen! The stand alone looks way out of place doesn't look like it belongs. Does anyone think the stand alone kinda looks like Wall-e from the cartoon?


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Does anyone have pic's of an off axis installation krx3's I'd like to see a couple of them.


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## Pirate01 (Aug 19, 2011)

Looks and sounds to me someone has a little to much buyers remorse.
The install is clean neat and detailed.Maybe just to excellent of an install for your car,might be time to upgrade the car to suit the install then you maybe happy.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Yea buyers remorse ok. You can talk when you pay premium price pick up the car and on the way home it dies. My car is now in my driveway completely dead. Unless your in my situation you have no right to say I have buyers remorse. I don't think everybody understands my point im not complaining about the work I'm complaining about the total disregard of any direction that was given about my build. I'm not here to give him a bad name. That's all I have to say. I just want my car fixed.


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## Pirate01 (Aug 19, 2011)

Should talk to your installer not go on to forums and get opinions if you do not like the answers.Yes you may have paid premium and yes you got a premium build and the installer would have done the job to what you requested unless you gave him free a pass do as he wanted.Either way he would have built to your request.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

I'm a little tied up today, I wanted to try and help you with your issues and will when I get more time... Maybe as a starting point just check your battery terminals to see if everything is tight, also check your fuses... Start small and work your way from your power sources to the back...


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Davel you are a stand up guy. Unfortunately their policy is that no one can touch the build at all including me or my warranties will be void. That maybe common practice in the fabricating business I don't know. I'll just have to hope they call back within a reasonable time frame. Thanks anyway.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Upon reading this from the beginning to the end I can't wait to see what comes about from this. I am hopeful that it works out for you, and that you start to enjoy what you've obviously worked hard to pay for.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

poker11788 said:


> I'm not here to give him a bad name. That's all I have to say. I just want my car fixed.


I dont wanna comment on what happened since I am just a third party...but I kinda feel that this thread...especially since the reboot..doesnt really help you get your car fixed and is more likely to give the shop a bad name...have you contacted him about all these issues u have posted on here?

Maybe I missed it...but r u saying u contacted him about these issues and hes ignoring u so as a result u r airing them out on the forums?


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Thank You for all your posts. I agree that nothing good can come from this post at this time however when this crazy ride is over I will let everyone know the outcome. Thanks


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## Fronty2011 (May 19, 2012)

Checking your battery terminals will not void a warranty. If my car died because it was not getting power I would check the terminals, if one was loose I would tighten the damn thing and be on my way. The popping noise is probably product related, It happens especialy with these full DA systems. I would advise you to call the installer and let him know yourself the problems you are having. If I was him and seen this thread before you even spoke to me about it, I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about helping you.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

The install/fabrication from the surface looks to be absolutely top tier, and after piecing together the information regarding all of the products and fabrication that went into this build, I believe it was reasonably and competitively priced.

HOWEVER, if I had given this installer (or any installer) a very clear directive from the beginning, with clear details regarding the type, style, placement, and features of the build, and the installer deviated IN ANY WAY without consulting me for approval first, then you bet I would be upset, and rightly so. The installer should agree to redo any work that does not conform to the original agreement, PERIOD.

And although the finish work does look exceptional, and the color-matching looks perfect, I can't say that I care much for the overall aesthetic, design, or placement of the subwoofer enclosure and false floor in that vehicle, but that is entirely personal preference.

In addition, there is absolutely NO EXCUSE for the shop allowing this build out the door with potential problems such as the DSP/Tweeters popping, and Power System/Failure issues, UNLESS these specific, potential problems were identified and disclosed to the customer well before releasing the vehicle! At the same time, I realize that sometimes sh!t just happens and is completely unpredictable, but so far the discussion here indicates that this build may have been headed for a train wreck in some regards.

I'm in the creative business myself, and even though I might have a specific style, am imaginative, and would like to have full creative license when creating my work/products, my client's wants and needs must be my first priority. They are paying top dollar for quality, aesthetically-pleasing work, but also for a product that conforms exactly to their unique specifications, requirements, and desires.

If a customer has given the vendor full artistic license to create whatever they please, and has agreed to pay a set price for that creative work, to be completed within a certain time frame, then that is another matter entirely. But generally, I find that many artists/fabricators assert too much creative freedom on these types of projects, thinking that they know what is best for the client regardless of their previous communication. WTF?!

In some ways I understand...it is MUCH easier for the artist to work without restrictions and/or without having to conform to a set of limitations, and it entirely does away with any extra or extensive planning/consultation time with the customer. Yes, time is money, but in my book, the Best-of-the-Best can pull off both a top-quality, aesthetically-pleasing install, while at the same time meeting specific requirements and design goals of the customer!

The most important thing that I've learned when communicating with a client, is to ask a very specific series of questions (a lot of them) regarding the physical and aesthetic requirements and desires of the final work. There are an incredible amount of variables that need to be ironed-out and specified when taking on these types of projects! And quite a few clients/customers haven't even considered or given much thought to most of these variables/possibilities.

Regarding custom car audio installs, here are some specific questions that I would need answers to:

1. Will you be wanting/planning to do any type of upgrades to this system in the near or distant future? If so, what exactly? Source units (possible digital sources), Speaker components or subwoofer(s), DSP, Amplifiers, rear fill, interior and/or seats, etc?

2. Do you want to maintain the spare tire (if there is one) and its original placement?

3. Do you want to maintain as much cargo and/or trunk space and usability as possible, or are you willing to give up some or all of these to accommodate the audio install?

4. Do you want to have a high-end system, but also maintain the OEM appearance or a "stealth" install? Or do you want a full-on show car install that highlights obvious custom interior elements. Perhaps you'd like a bit of both...say a custom false-floor subwoofer/amp/DSP/power distribution system viewable under lighted Plexiglass panels, that can all be covered with an OEM-looking cargo mat/carpet?

5. Do you want or need extended music playing time with the engine off...e.g. a secondary/auxillary battery with starting battery isolation? And will that require an updated alternator?

6. What types of surfaces and finishes do you prefer for each custom panel or fabricated part? Specify any preferred Colors, OEM or designer fabrics, cloth, suede, leather, vinyl, color-matched painted surfaces, etc.

These are just a few questions to get started. In addition, no matter what type of install is performed, IMO, the design should allow all products such as Speakers, Subwoofers, Amplifiers, DSP, Power Distribution & Fuses/Circuit Breakers, to all be easily accessible for quick repair or replacement. And the same goes for the Spare Tire & Jack, if they are being retained.

Sorry for my extensive rambling, but perhaps this information will help prospective customers AND installers when considering a new custom car audio project. As a customer and forum member, you have been completely up-front and admitted fault despite being bashed on this forum extensively, and I can respect that.

I sincerely hope that you are able to resolve any and all issues regarding this install and the installer and are able to enjoy your system and your favorite music ASAP!

Best of luck!


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

Too busy to get deep into this, but everyone remember there are two sides to evere story. The installer wouldn't have ever been named installer of the year without having a high level of credibility. I know his side and the vehicle owners. I'm staying out of the details, but would say aside from the overall design issue between customer/installer, everything was absolutely installed in a top notch fashion. I can produce about 15 build pics, but I'll just give you the amp rack/wiring shot. No short cuts or hack jobs here.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

I'm familiar with the installer and his level of work and reputation...and obviously this customer knew his reputation before releasing his vehicle into said installer's hands...no question there. Just wondering where the disconnect happened between what was requested by the customer, and what was delivered? And why the almost instant problems (tweeters popping/DSP) and failure of the electrical system? Gremlins, me thinks.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

Gremlins in the form of 1's and 0's indeed. I'll say that I still have digital pops with my full D/A system & that's after swapping 5 BitOnes and 3 AV BitIn's. The latest equipment has been virtually problem free. I'd probably have to swap everything to include the car and start 100% fresh to get rid of them. I'm blame my car... Because I hate it.


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## Fronty2011 (May 19, 2012)

How can you let a build like this go this far and then say "its not what you wanted". This is typical Las Vegas ********, lots of half ass crooks here that dont know left from right. You obviously had no idea of what you wanted if the build got this far and you are not happy with it. YOU should have been very clear in what you wanted when spending that kind of money. Is this installer part of the mob or what because I would have a total say in what I spent 16k on. And you have seen pics of the enclosure and still let the build continue. I honestly dont know what to say. You drove off with the vehicle right? So it looked good right? Do you need your mom to come do the deciding for you? I think what really happened was, somebody said "why are you puting a $16,000 system in a Hyundai Santa Fe thats only worth $2,500" and you said "****" what did I do?


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## Fronty2011 (May 19, 2012)

Bottom line is that you do not even think he did an active set up for you or you just do not know untill you check it out, how do you have the know how to check that and you cant even check a battery terminal. Just give it up mother ****er, I deal with your type every day and your only making yourself look like a fool.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

If you don't mind me asking. Where is your place of business in las vegas?


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Perhaps west sahara?


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## Fronty2011 (May 19, 2012)

why do you care who I work for? I do not do anythng related to cars or car audio.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

I just figured that if you called me a foolish mother ****er who couldn't figure out how to tighten loose battery terminals or check if a system is active or not. I'd only assume that you would be in car audio or something to do with cars to have such a strong opinion of the subject.


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## Fronty2011 (May 19, 2012)

Self taught here. It just sounds like your playing dumb.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

No hard feelings here. Maybe your right I could be dumb. We'll know soon enough.


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## Fronty2011 (May 19, 2012)

And your from Huntington so what made you come here for this install


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

I lived in Huntington when I joined but I've lived in Vegas awhile. I went to the installers shop because it was the only shop that dealt with audison products.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

Any updates? Was the shop able to resolve/diagnose? Low voltage can cause all the issues you're having and I remember you were upgrading your alternator... Make sure all the connections are nice n snug.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Well it turned out that my serpentine belts were shreaded. The culprit was that the alternator had a 6 groove pulley system and the belts were 4 grooved so they didn't fit together. My installer talked to Mike they figured a plan of attack and ordered a 4 groove pulley system. I must say Jon was pleasant, patient and accommodating which made a crappy situation into an easy going day.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

I'm glad you guys managed to keep cool heads about the situation. ****ty that the alternator shop did you wrong. Hope fixing it, fixes the other issues.


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## Fronty2011 (May 19, 2012)

Interesting.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

Fronty2011 said:


> Interesting.


I feel you are here just to troll the op... just saying


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## Fronty2011 (May 19, 2012)

REGULARCAB said:


> I feel you are here just to troll the op... just saying


I just want to know the facts. Seems he keeps bashing the installer before he has any of those "facts" and has to put his foot in his mouth.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Hey guys, just wanna make sure I make this clear. Mike had givin' me an alternator that was top notch as a matter of fact it was benched at 296 when it was sold as a 240. It was just a misunderstanding that is an easy fix. Part will arrive tomorrow and it'll be done. His alt definitely lived up to his name.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Look frosty, I've already said it a million times. I don't like the build it wasn't what I wanted there should have been progress checks as it went on. I 100% expressed my opinion before it was even finished and still the install continued that's what I was bitching about not the installers talent or work ethic. I am simply venting about how unhappy I am with the work not the quality of the build. I don't know why your trying to stir up **** when this was a civilized conversation.


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## Fronty2011 (May 19, 2012)

poker11788 said:


> Look frosty, I've already said it a million times. I don't like the build it wasn't what I wanted there should have been progress checks as it went on. I 100% expressed my opinion before it was even finished and still the install continued that's what I was bitching about not the installers talent or work ethic. I am simply venting about how unhappy I am with the work not the quality of the build. I don't know why your trying to stir up **** when this was a civilized conversation.



Did you pay up front? If It was not what I asked for I would not have paid.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Good for you, and yes it was paid up front. Except for a few odds and ends that had to be paid for on delivery.


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## Fronty2011 (May 19, 2012)

Did you tell him that you were not happy with the design?

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

A bunch of times but does it matter? I'm unhappy and it's done. The only reason I posted today is because Davel wanted to know updates.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

many of us are monitoring the progress of this thread, as it encapsulates the idea that money can buy happiness, as a faulty premise.

it would appear to many to be well constructed and without technical faults, but the aesthetic design details were not negotiated to the extent that both parties understood what was expected.

this is why both parties now feel like they should be allowed to vent but the misunderstanding is the fault of the sales department, who didn't clear the proposed design before the installer fabricated it.

if the installer was doing the sales guy bit, he needs to create more transparency and not trust the customer to love his aesthetic approach.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

OK let's wrap this up. The moral of the story is learn from my mistakes on your next build. Never pay upfront for anything, ask for copies of any receipts that have to do with money, whatever build you agree on get it on paper then approve it and sign it and get weekly progress reports on the progress of the build. OK I have said a few words here that could be misconstrued as a personal attack on him. So let me clear this up. My installer is a grade A fabricator and has vision of what the end product will look like. He's a hard worker and I have no complaints on his work ethic I just wish that my build was geared to my ideas and specifications.


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## Jack Meoff (Oct 16, 2014)

OK so what I have gotten from this is that the customer is unhappy with the build cuz the builder didn't do what the customer wanted from the start. I feel the builder needs to rectify this. customer comes first. especially after spending as much as he did. I see nice work in the build but I don't like the box not because of craftsmanship but cuz it does not fit the vehicle. and yes it does look like Wall-E. as for the popping im sure it will get sorted out. what it all boils down to is the customer spent a lot of money on a build he doesn't like. it also sounds like the builder didn't communicate very well at all. customer needs to be kept in the loop. telling the customer to trust him is only asking for a problem cuz now he has built something completely without any input and with a completed piece its hard to go back cuz of time involved. alternator seems to be failure on both sides the alternator builder for sending with wrong pulley and system builder for not seeing the problem while installing the unit.


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## Jack Meoff (Oct 16, 2014)

Curious if there has been any updates. Has there been any resolution to the problems?


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

What exactly is wrong with the tweeter pods to the OP? There's kind of a lip on top of the tweeter but that might look great when actually IN the car.


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## upgrayedd (Apr 19, 2011)

Stuff like this is impossible for those that weren't there to judge. Does the work justify the cost.....I think so. If the OP wasn't very clear about what he wanted and not involved in the build, then things like this can easily happen. If he was very clear about what he wanted then it reminds me of

Family guy tattoo scene - YouTube


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

I'm sure we will get the full story once all issues are resolved. I have issues with the OP stating the alternator builder is top notch, based on the bench testing of the alternator, but not considering that the pulley was wrong and it shredded a serp belt. A bad charging system can cause all of the issues you had at the time of pick up. You were quick to blame the installer that did the audio portion, yet not the alternator builder. Even if the installer did put in the alternator, he is an installer/fabricator, not an electrictian or mechanic.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

TheDavel said:


> I'm sure we will get the full story once all issues are resolved. I have issues with the OP stating the alternator builder is top notch, based on the bench testing of the alternator, but not considering that the pulley was wrong and it shredded a serp belt. A bad charging system can cause all of the issues you had at the time of pick up. You were quick to blame the installer that did the audio portion, yet not the alternator builder. Even if the installer did put in the alternator, he is an installer/fabricator, not an electrictian or mechanic.


From my understanding, the shop personnel and/or installer in question did in fact install the alternator. So are you honestly saying that the personnel at any car audio shop (and especially an "Installer of the Year") do not need to understand 12-volt electronics and the basics of automotive charging/electrical systems??? 

The vehicle was released to the customer with the alternator/charging system completely untested (not wired properly and not charging the battery) and obviously with the wrong alternator pulley for the vehicle/type of belt (HELLO?!?!...common sense just by visual inspection by the installer)!

In addition to the high likelyhood of being left stranded on the side of the road with a dead battery, and discharging the battery beyond recovery ($$$ money for a tow truck, new battery, new alt belt, and potentially late to work/missed work/boss NOT happy), this could have potentially damaged more than just the installed audio equipment, and could have affected OEM electronics.

Again, I'd say there was absolutely no excuse by the shop/installer for the vehicle being handed off to the customer with these issues. Yes, the pulley supplied by the alternator company was incorrect, but a quick and simple visual inspection/comparison to the OEM pulley should have been easily caught by the installer BEFORE installation! And the installer should have hired a qualified 12v electrician/mechanic to test everything if he and/or his personnel didn't have the knowledge to do so. Ten minutes at any decent auto shop could have prevented this...at a "drop in the bucket" cost-wise as compared to the overall cost of the build.

I am not on anyone's side here...I don't personally know the customer or the installer. I'm just basing my response according to the information posted here, as if I were the customer and as if it was my vehicle. I'd be more than a bit frustrated and discouraged.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

bbfoto said:


> From my understanding, the shop personnel and/or installer in question did in fact install the alternator. So are you honestly saying that the personnel at any car audio shop (and especially an "Installer of the Year") do not need to understand 12-volt electronics and the basics of automotive charging/electrical systems???
> 
> The vehicle was released to the customer with the alternator/charging system completely untested (not wired properly and not charging the battery) and obviously with the wrong alternator pulley for the vehicle/type of belt (HELLO?!?!...common sense just by visual inspection by the installer)!
> 
> ...


So your playin the rolls eyes game... Cool, not needed. Let's keep this civil. Look over my post, then over your post. You're obviously a smart guy, but there are holes in your logic and the points you are trying to make off of my comments and I never said anything about personnel needing or not needing to know the basics of a 12v system.

I will admit that I shouldn't have said "at the time of pick up", my understanding is that it left without any notable issues, but they came up after driving (for obvious reasons).

If the customer took off the alternator, sent it out to be rebuilt or even brought in a new one, the installer shouldn't be responsible for bench testing, or comparing especially if it bolts right up. Yes he could've/should've compared the pulleys, but that mindset is based on him having the factory one to compare it to or thinking of looking at the other pulleys in the system, which isn't a step 99% of people would follow if it bolts right up and the electrical harnesses are plug and play without issue. Understanding the basics of a serpintine system would cause you to look at pulleys, there is no excuse for the alternator having the wrong pulley in the first place IMO, but it obviously happens.

You say it wasn't wired correctly, can we get some proof of this? Seems like you know something that hasn't been presented.

In response to your claims of it damaging more items a creating additional issues... This is a risk anytime you modify a car. Cars have issues right from the factory all the time, obviously modifying them from their factory form comes at a risk.

Trying to make someone out to be the bad guy, like he could've cost the OP his job is a stretch. Life happens, a good employees boss would understand if something came up... If said employee had a bad track record with the boss, then yes, I could see some issues.

If the guy was concerned with being stranded and needing a tow, why would he have authorized his amps be placed where his spare used to be? Seems like he must have towing coverage, roadside assistance, or some great walking shoes.

Let's just keep things fair here... The alternator was an issue on the alternator builders end for months... The installer should have been more critical when installing it. If I were in the installers shoes, I would've been doing everything I could to get the OP on his way. After dealing with the OP starting this thread and having his car at my shop for months, I'd just want it gone and I likely would missed it too.

Bottom line, the customer asked for modifications, there is always risk with this... Audio or not. If an issues comes up, the installer should try to remedy it.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Hi Davel. I just saw that there were a few posts since I've been here last. I'm gonna answer all your questions with the facts only with no embellishment.

1)As far as fabrication being installed over my spare it is not. I have a functional spare so as far as free towing or good walking shoes without making you feel embarassed so lets just make believe you didn't say anything.
2)When I did break down 15 minutes after I picked the car up it was not a flat tire it was a snapped serp belt and a dead battery obviosly due to the alternator not charging the battery.
3)Yes the alternator was sent with a 6 groove pulley and was installed to a 4 groove serp belt. So as far as your comment about he's not a mechanic so he's not to blame well maybe he's not but maybe I should have been told that they didn't do alternator work let me recommend someone who does.
4)When I did get the car towed to the shop he diagnosed the problem and I called Mike to get the 4 groove pulley. When that arrived it was installed. That adventure cost me over 300 bucks and none of it was parts.
5) Lets discuss Mike, I did not judge him on the alternator benching better then he originally said. I judged him on his customer service. Every time I needed something for the alt it was sent overnight no charge to me as well as always taking my calls. Was he partly at fault? Absolutely.
6)Yes we are very motivated to part ways as I'm sure he doesn't want me around and I would be happy to leave as long as I can leave with a functional system. I will say this he's been REAL unlucky with the components. Since I picked it up in mid September he has replaced the 
bit 10d twice, 2 of the avbit in's, the audison due had to be replaced and now very likely the av 5.1k will need to be replaced do to the shutting down or just having the speakers barely audible. The tweets, mids and subs are all powered by the av 5.1k. I hope this answers all of the questions that everybody has been looking for.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

I have to say this he is really trying to remedy the parts situation.


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## McKinneyMike (Jul 24, 2014)

REGULARCAB said:


> I feel you are here just to troll the op... just saying


It would make you wonder.......... Maybe a close friend or a neighbor? Maybe a good customer? What ever it sure looks fishy to me how you have chosen to rag the OP given that he has tried to be fair in most of his postings here (We will never know exactly how this all went down). 

I agree that there needs to be a detailed plan on how a design is implemented with design checks at specific points during the build to make sure that everyone is in agreement. Two peoples visions are often not exactly the same. 

I would never pay up front(other than for equipment being installed and accessories). I might never get to have a top tier installer do my work either if they demand this type of arrangement. I always felt that if there is a carrot out there people work to please more than if they have a full stomach. Just my take on life.

I hope that the OP can get the install all sorted out to where it is totally functional and that both parties learn something of value here. Best wishes to all.


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## Wheels_78 (Oct 15, 2014)

After reading this whole thread this morning I'm left with re-affirmed beliefs in DIY whenever possible, amusement at the absurdity of multiple mentions of the cost of glue and knife blades in the context of a $14000 build, and most keenly felt.... That people will happily tell you not to complain until you've seen the finished product, then explain that you should have said something earlier if you don't like the finished product.


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

For $14000 any good store should provide simple concept sketches, even badly hand drawn ones but still true to the fabricator's idea, to review/approve before cutting the first board or wire.

(For big commercial projects people want to see 3 to 6 concepts/drawings followed by 3 bids and endless rounds of signatures lol.)


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Wheels_78 said:


> After reading this whole thread this morning I'm left with re-affirmed beliefs in DIY whenever possible, amusement at the absurdity of multiple mentions of the cost of glue and knife blades in the context of a $14000 build, and most keenly felt.... That people will happily tell you not to complain until you've seen the finished product, then explain that you should have said something earlier if you don't like the finished product.


Spot on, IMHO.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

diy.phil said:


> For $14000 any good store should provide simple concept sketches, even badly hand drawn ones but still true to the fabricator's idea, to review/approve before cutting the first board or wire.
> 
> (For big commercial projects people want to see 3 to 6 concepts/drawings followed by 3 bids and endless rounds of signatures lol.)


If I gave a drawing to any of my customers before hand..theyd likely all back out hahaha I am super horrible.at drawing anything...but I can 3d model in my head well..down to the last ziptie.sometimes


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

Can always practice with paper and pencil with a big eraser in the beginning  Then it'll be easier and can use a smaller eraser. The first time I had to draw on the white board in a conference room with everyone looking it wasn't easy either. A few times later it becomes too easy like anytime anywhere will do. The young people can probably sketch it with tablets (haven't gotten there yet lol), but probably just go straight to the tablet method


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

I know this post is very old however a lot of people wanted to know how this fiasco turned out. Now I don't know the rules of the forum for posting correspondence about an installer but I'm going to give it a shot. Now I know there are a bunch of people out there who will POUND me into the ground no matter what I say. This is for the people who are genuinely curious about how it all went down. 
The best way to navigate through this mess is to look at documents as their mentioned
To start I'm going to show how our communication was intact and that he knew exactly what I really wanted (please look at reminder 1-3, Jon understands job and build instructions.) This is the ONLY time I ever approved a bigger budget (see increasing budget). No matter what I did emailing or calling I could never get a progress report on my car (see no progress check ). Now this might explain why I couldn't get pics of my car. Leonardo da Vinci wouldn't allow it (see mona lisa). I would love to answer his question. Yes I would LOVE to see the Mona Lisa half painted as long as it would get me some freaking’ pic's of my car like the ones he showed all his friends. If I had seen the pics at that point I would’ve shut it down and cut my losses but unfortunately that would mean he would have had to give me a lot of my money back. Not likely. (see still no pic's). Now according to mom he was very busy working on my car to meet his super high standards (see hundreds of hours and build pics ). Now we both agreed that a second battery would be optimal so now I needed to get measurements of the battery to purchase it. I had a battery in mind so I sent the specs of it but unfortunately it wouldn't work. I guess the smart thing to do was to ask him for measurements that would fit. I asked for the measurements and got a response from his mother that he was just TOO busy for my needs. I did not know there was actually a way to take over a week to measure a battery. Nonetheless I never received the measurements anyway. (see 86 2nd battery). This is how she explained it (see idle waiting) he is simply working WAY too hard to deal with me. So I responded (see my response). Of course my real appointment date was June 2nd. Was it September 30th already? OK now I'm at my wits end I've tried everything including royally kissing his ass, appealing to his pride by telling his mother he's a genius and artist, saying I understand things happen and still no delivery. So of course I lost my **** and tried all that kissing ass again. I finally came to realize that if I royally kissed his ass things started to happen as soon as I complained or got angry things screeched to a halt. (see plead to get my car back). I’ll make this alternator story short and sweet. Earlier in this thread there were a couple people who stated it’s not his fault due to the fact that he’s not a mechanic. I bought into that for a while and after a few day’s I realized just how absurd that comment really was. Yes the alternator was shipped with wrong pulley system but it should have never been installed in the first place. Jon blaming the alternator guy for all the bad stuff that happened on my way home is just crazy it’s like Jon jamming a square peg in a round hole and then blaming the hole for being round (see alt warranty). The night before I was supposed to pick up my car I asked his mom for a total amount that was owed she told me she would get back to me. Late that night she left a message that the amount owed was $3,800.00. I almost fell over I had a receipt that said I owed $600.00 (see final deposit). I called and told her the discrepancy and asked her to PLEASE make copies of the original receipts for when I got there. I arrived at Jon’s around 4 PM. His girlfriend handed me this invoice for around $11,000.00 showing that I had a balance of $3,800.00. I asked for the original receipts to compare everything. She apologized and said sorry we shredded them earlier in the day. WHAT?? That meant I would need to trust that every little amount on the originals were copied to the final invoice correctly. Here’s the kicker, I had asked why did the bill go up so much and I was told that I wanted a lot of upgrades. The enclosure was the only upgrade that I approved (see upgrade). Her response was “Jon had to put a lot more labor into it than he thought,” I immediately asked for Jon, and here it comes the million dollar answer. Jon worked soooo hard earlier that day that he had to go home and go to sleep. It was 4 o’clock in the middle of the workweek and he’d rather sleep then deliver an $11,000.00 install. No choice but to pay to get my car back. I then was handed my keys and I left. THE END!
I’ve posted some of the build pic’s that I’ve run across while taking stuff apart for my new install. Just keep in mind that I paid for all new wiring.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Here are the rest of the pic's


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## SHAGGS (Apr 24, 2011)

Well, that's interesting.

FWIW, you may want to cover up your last name and number from your invoice.


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## ben54b (May 30, 2014)

This is terrible all round. As a tradie I don't know how I feel about email being posted but I can understand your position and how you must feel. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

funny how people fall sick on Saturday and Sunday, I mean of all the days.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)




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## leepersc (Sep 23, 2009)

Wow, just wow! I guess I would finish this whole deal in small claims court. Only problem, $11,000 is a little over the statutory limits I'm sure. You would have been better of paying for and attending installer schools on your own. Probably would have been cheaper. Thank god for DIY. Good luck man!


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## CRUNK (May 9, 2013)

poker11788 said:


> OK I'm not not a master by any means, but I know composite when I see it and I see none on this enclosure. It's simply wood with a little bond on the edges to smooth it out and does not conform to my car and I sure don't have buyers remorse. Just like everyone has been saying stop complaining. All in all when everything boils down, the joke is on me.


Composite box like that i would charge $1300-1600 people think 14k is high for a sq build, did not compete in the hay days $50-100k ez plus a tow rig


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Dang! Installer of the year huh? Smh


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

The saga continues. I am not siding with anyone, but everything is one-sided here. After meeting Jon while in Vegas for CES and discussing this situation at length, I will say I completely understand why things went the way they did. I will not bash either person, but rather say that communication/expectations on both ends were lacking.

Jon could respond here, but what is there to gain? Maybe he could defend his credibility, but he is taking the high road. A true professional doesn't get involved with internet drama or bickering, however, a true professional will make things right... but we all reach a breaking point. Mine would've likely been reached with all the games the OP has played regarding pricing, bad mouthing an unfinished install, not having the alternator ready at the time of install, and just having a poor attitude/lack of maturity in dealing with these situations. 

You can't make everyone happy and he certainly has had more positive experiences and customer feedback than this. 

This is a DIYMA site, we are not exactly the customers that go to his store and look for him to do work or any other store for that matter.


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## rayray881 (Jul 15, 2013)

"a true professional" that has his mom and girlfriend handle the issues! I see nothing wrong with bashing a person/shop when they refuse to remedy a bad situation. Just my opinion, carry on!


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

One thing the owner of my shop said the other day resonated with me. Lady came in with a bad Bose amp in her Tahoe. We sent it for repair twice, the repair place could never replicate the issue so of course they did nothing. Turns out it probably wasn't the amp but some sort of sensor (can't remember what). Anyway, he said, "She came in here for tunes. Did she leave with tunes?" Sales guys said, "No". Owner said, "Well, then we didn't do our jobs."


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

rayray881 said:


> "a true professional" that has his mom and girlfriend handle the issues! I see nothing wrong with bashing a person/shop when they refuse to remedy a bad situation. Just my opinion, carry on!


I must have missed this in the text, but I'll say that it is a family run business and his dad helps run the store front, so I am not surprised if his family got involved. Is this a crime?


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

sirbOOm said:


> One thing the owner of my shop said the other day resonated with me. Lady came in with a bad Bose amp in her Tahoe. We sent it for repair twice, the repair place could never replicate the issue so of course they did nothing. Turns out it probably wasn't the amp but some sort of sensor (can't remember what). Anyway, he said, "She came in here for tunes. Did she leave with tunes?" Sales guys said, "No". Owner said, "Well, then we didn't do our jobs."


I like this a lot! Pretty basic logic.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

TheDavel said:


> The saga continues. I am not siding with anyone, but everything is one-sided here. After meeting Jon while in Vegas for CES and discussing this situation at length, I will say I completely understand why things went the way they did. I will not bash either person, but rather say that communication/expectations on both ends were lacking.
> 
> Jon could respond here, but what is there to gain? Maybe he could defend his credibility, but he is taking the high road. A true professional doesn't get involved with internet drama or bickering, however, a true professional will make things right... but we all reach a breaking point. Mine would've likely been reached with all the games the OP has played regarding pricing, bad mouthing an unfinished install, not having the alternator ready at the time of install, and just having a poor attitude/lack of maturity in dealing with these situations.
> 
> ...


Davel,

You are so full of crap. You have no clue what you're talking about. Just because you meet a guy at a trade show and he shmoozes you to death telling you that he's an innocent fabricator who tried to do his best but his client was so mean and immature that he just couldn't take it anymore what a joke. First of all you spent the first couple lines of your post saying that you weren't gonna bash anyone maybe I'm dreaming but the second paragraph felt like bashing to me, actually I'm still sore from it. I'm gonna address all your points, but I just want to drive 1 point home once and for all. There are no lies being told, there is no embellishing going on, everything I've said has been documented. Of course there will be a bunch of different ways for people to view those facts but there has been no out and out lying taking place.

As far as playing games. What games? According to you I played games with pricing. How is that even possible? When the freakin' thing was paid up front. I posted my receipt (on the fabrication opinions thread )which said I owed $600 at the time of pick up. The only thing that I upgraded was that enclosure (which was so far away from what I wanted it makes me sick.) and the agreement was put on paper. At no other times did I approve any other upgrades and I challenge ANYBODY to produce them! Emails or ANYTHING! 

So can you please explain to me where the other charges came from. You know, the ones that equaled $1,700 on top of what I really owed. I guess we could've exchanged invoices and notes who knows maybe I forgot something but we'll never know since all the originals invoices where shredded before I got there, the reason being, there were too many of them to keep up with. I don't want to go through all this scanning stuff we've all have seen it before, but I will post 2 pic's just to show that I'm not lying about the extra charges.

I misplaced all my original invoices, I'm like that what can you do.
However after all these problems I was able to round up a couple, let me show you what I mean about invoice tampering. I was assured that great care was taken to copy over all those charges from the shredded invoices over to the final invoice. You'll see that the old invoice.(white one) I rounded up says differently. The original invoice says I would be charged $170.00 for my big 3 install. Now look at the final receipt (yellow one) 
Abra Cadabra the $170 magically changed to $340, now only after yelling and getting super pissed off they saw their way to honor the original price of $170. Well that's great but if she can't tell $170 from $340 I think we need someone else to copy the figures. I mean stuff like that makes it impossible to settle this in a civil way. How can I trust anyone over there. Is everyone with me so far or am I still a babbling idiot who want's to bash his poor fabricator. I can't make this any more believable than I already have.

As far as the alternator crap that you so regularly throw up in my face on your posts. It's real simple, I put up with that alternator hasn't arrived bullsh*t for 5 freakin' months and when I got SO SICK and TIRED of the excuses. I went ahead and ordered one myself and the correct one arrived in 3 weeks (it did come with the wrong pulley but mike overnighted the correct one so it was a 1 day turn around). All it would've taken is just a little effort on their part, for god sakes they ordered it from the same company 4 times and got the wrong one every time! 

What else did you bring up that I can address? Oh yes taking the high road not caring about my yammering since he has nothing to justify. I'll tell you what, if he can post, not call, but post a reasonable reason with proof of why my bill went up $1,700 the day of my delivery. I will strip down naked and post pic's right here and if they wont let me I'll figure out a way to get them to you. The reason why this would be humiliating is because I am a big fat ugly man who's balding and has a rug on his 
chest.  

To this day the only excuse that I've received is that Jon put more hours into the install than he originally thought it was gonna take. 

As far as the games and all that crap you brought up. YES I called every friggin' day, day in and day out and got absolutely nowhere I was a BIG, FAT, ROYAL PAIN in the ASS. It's very true there is NO love loss between us, and I don't mean that we don't care for each other, we down right dislike each other. 

Now I wan't to make sure I understand what I think I'm seeing in your post.
I'm understanding that you're saying that a professional would try to make right the things that were wrong but since I was such a pain in the ass that he had reached his breaking point and you in fact, would've reached it sooner? Correct? 

You should really think about this question before you answer it because if your answer is yes. Your saying that when a professional custom fabricator gets fed up with a client's bullsh*t it's basically ok to not follow through, use shortcuts and up charge a couple extra grand. If that's how you honestly feel there's a problem. 

Now this is all hearsay and cannot be proven. So I apologize in advance if it hurt's somebody's feelings.

It's my personal opinion that there was NO slumber taking place on that wednesday at 4pm. Jon was not present because he knew I was getting the shaft and couldn't look me in the eye when they charged me an extra 2 grand AND the last thing in the world he wanted to do is deliver a $14,000 install to a guy he already knew hated it, but that's just me.

Look I have written this all before and obviously everyone is getting tired of it but I will not be taking ANY ******** when it comes to this subject. I have proven everything that I've posted in black and white. I have nothing to hide.

Davel,

You think I"m here to post ******** and abuse someone, use your head man. I have a daughter whose time is precious to me and I also have a full life. Do you actually believe I'm spending hours on this crap just to bash Jon. What I'm doing is not a game to me I believe it is important. I'm posting this for other people to see what I received for my money, and to basically warn them that entering into a contract with this company it is possible for it to end up being a horrible experience. I know your correct about his work he has hundreds of followers who all got AMAZING systems for a fair price, unfortunately I wasn't one of them.

If Jon would've made just 1 call to me after the first thread was posted and expressed his understanding and just offered a few bucks back or even 3 or 4 hours in labor or just SOMETHING to say I'm sorry we have had our differences what can we do to make this right. I would've apologized on the spot in every forum that I was able to. I would firmly express how professional he was so on and so forth.
Instead we've had a 4 month period of exhausting posts of this garbage. I've been writing this garbage for over an hour now. 

Davel,

I'm sorry we don't see eye to eye, but I can't take crap. I did on fabrication opinion's because I was nervous and all the bashing got to me. At this point that's not gonna happen, unless it can be proven. I'm tired I'm gonna post this and go watch Vikings.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

who charges 340 bucks for a big 3 upgrade?

isn't that like, pretty standard even if it did include 1/0 OFC wire and a few terminals/techflex/heat shrink?

even at 170, that seems high to me.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

cajunner,
Your losing sight of the big picture my friend. It's not an issue of it's over priced it's an issue of the price doubling on the final invoice. It was an obvious attempt to change the prices to get more cash, simply because they thought that I no longer had the originals. It's the same thing on the door panels. They were done that way because I was never expected to open the panels and see it.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

poker11788 said:


> cajunner,
> Your losing sight of the big picture my friend. It's not an issue of it's over priced it's an issue of the price doubling on the final invoice. It was an obvious attempt to change the prices to get more cash, simply because they thought that I no longer had the originals. It's the same thing on the door panels. They were done that way because I was never expected to open the panels and see it.


I see what you're saying.

I wouldn't have accepted that invoice with all of the crossed out and changed figures on it.

I remember back in the eighties when I was young and dumb and had some invoices from a stereo store, they were very clear about me understanding the charges and that there were no mistakes on the invoice.

This appears to be one of those classic instances of a mom and pop shop being run by non-professional people and they choose to hose whoever they feel deserves it, just going by the information given here.

Completely disrespecting the premise of a customer's right to good service, and a demonstrated lack of ethical practices/corruption and a culture of favoritism/bias that discriminated against you, the high-ticket buyer of luxury goods...


just a really poor showing. I certainly wouldn't accept things as they sit, and would make a case for fraud based on just the big 3 ticket changes.

the evidence is plainly viewed and needs no further "lawyering" to understand what happened there, I don't believe I'd take that, and not from someone who soured my hobby happiness.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

As I said in a previous post I'm done with all this.The only reason I popped my head up again is to respond to Davel.

I've posted everything I have pertaining to this subject, all the pic's, email and invoices. There is no more to add. I've accomplished what I set out to accomplish, which was to let the forum know my experiences during the course of this build. All the rest is pure opinion. 

Time to move on.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

poker11788 said:


> Davel,
> 
> You are so full of crap. You have no clue what you're talking about. Just because you meet a guy at a trade show and he shmoozes you to death telling you that he's an innocent fabricator who tried to do his best but his client was so mean and immature that he just couldn't take it anymore what a joke. First of all you spent the first couple lines of your post saying that you weren't gonna bash anyone maybe I'm dreaming but the second paragraph felt like bashing to me, actually I'm still sore from it. I'm gonna address all your points, but I just want to drive 1 point home once and for all. There are no lies being told, there is no embellishing going on, everything I've said has been documented. Of course there will be a bunch of different ways for people to view those facts but there has been no out and out lying taking place.


My apologies for coming off as bashing you. That was not my intent. I will say I am not full of crap, but will not give your comments about me or my character any more attention than I already have. 


poker11788 said:


> As far as playing games. What games? According to you I played games with pricing. How is that even possible? When the freakin' thing was paid up front. I posted my receipt (on the fabrication opinions thread )which said I owed $600 at the time of pick up. The only thing that I upgraded was that enclosure (which was so far away from what I wanted it makes me sick.) and the agreement was put on paper. At no other times did I approve any other upgrades and I challenge ANYBODY to produce them! Emails or ANYTHING!
> 
> So can you please explain to me where the other charges came from. You know, the ones that equaled $1,700 on top of what I really owed. I guess we could've exchanged invoices and notes who knows maybe I forgot something but we'll never know since all the originals invoices where shredded before I got there, the reason being, there were too many of them to keep up with. I don't want to go through all this scanning stuff we've all have seen it before, but I will post 2 pic's just to show that I'm not lying about the extra charges.


Do you mind sharing all the e-mail correspondence between you and Jon with us? I’ve seen all of the correspondence and I’ve seen where you’ve confirmed that you liked what he was doing and where additional items were added/where “scope creep” took place in your project. When this happens, it comes at a price.


poker11788 said:


> I misplaced all my original invoices, I'm like that what can you do.


This seems awfully convenient, but it is what it is. I won’t hold it against you. 


poker11788 said:


> However after all these problems I was able to round up a couple, let me show you what I mean about invoice tampering. I was assured that great care was taken to copy over all those charges from the shredded invoices over to the final invoice. You'll see that the old invoice.(white one) I rounded up says differently. The original invoice says I would be charged $170.00 for my big 3 install. Now look at the final receipt (yellow one)
> Abra Cadabra the $170 magically changed to $340, now only after yelling and getting super pissed off they saw their way to honor the original price of $170. Well that's great but if she can't tell $170 from $340 I think we need someone else to copy the figures. I mean stuff like that makes it impossible to settle this in a civil way. How can I trust anyone over there. Is everyone with me so far or am I still a babbling idiot who want's to bash his poor fabricator. I can't make this any more believable than I already have.


If these documents were intentionally manipulated, forged, falsified, then you need to take them to court. The forum is not the correct avenue for resolving these issues, but it would be great to know the outcome of a legal case to see how the courts view where the fault lies.


poker11788 said:


> As far as the alternator crap that you so regularly throw up in my face on your posts. It's real simple, I put up with that alternator hasn't arrived bullsh*t for 5 freakin' months and when I got SO SICK and TIRED of the excuses. I went ahead and ordered one myself and the correct one arrived in 3 weeks (it did come with the wrong pulley but mike overnighted the correct one so it was a 1 day turn around). All it would've taken is just a little effort on their part, for god sakes they ordered it from the same company 4 times and got the wrong one every time!


The alternator situation could be viewed many ways, say that I side with you and agree that he should’ve caught the pulley… that does not negate the fact he stored your car at no charge for 5 months due to this issue. Now from the start I was told that your ordered all these alternators, not Jon… if this isn’t the case, then the storage of your vehicle is a cost he has to “eat”. The way I see it, is if a customer of mine had issues getting a product and I was “storing” his car, I would have strict parameters, i.e., the first 30 days is free, anything after that and I would have to start charging for storage. Your car would be taking up potential income space and is an unnecessary liability that ultimately would be costing me money. Just my perspective and any business owner would likely see it the same way.


poker11788 said:


> What else did you bring up that I can address? Oh yes taking the high road not caring about my yammering since he has nothing to justify. I'll tell you what, if he can post, not call, but post a reasonable reason with proof of why my bill went up $1,700 the day of my delivery. I will strip down naked and post pic's right here and if they wont let me I'll figure out a way to get them to you. The reason why this would be humiliating is because I am a big fat ugly man who's balding and has a rug on his
> chest.


I’ll reach out to Jon and see if he will respond, though I doubt he will. No nudes needed, but I like the humor here…


poker11788 said:


> To this day the only excuse that I've received is that Jon put more hours into the install than he originally thought it was gonna take.


If that happened as a result of poor planning on his part, then you shouldn’t pay for it period. If it happened because you added equipment/services, then he should be compensated. The way he explained it and the e-mail traffic he showed me indicated that the “scope” changed along the way.


poker11788 said:


> As far as the games and all that crap you brought up. YES I called every friggin' day, day in and day out and got absolutely nowhere I was a BIG, FAT, ROYAL PAIN in the ASS. It's very true there is NO love loss between us, and I don't mean that we don't care for each other, we down right dislike each other.


Changing your approach and killing them with kindness and understanding is usually a better way to get what you want and will keep prices and tension down. The more kind you are, the more the other person will feel like they need to get their things straight and at some point the dynamic will shift to his mindset changing and perhaps “hooking you up” on pricing vs being unpleasant. When someone is unpleasant with me, why would I cut them any breaks? If you are a cool guy that understands problems that arise with high end systems, I will hook you up all day long… that’s just me though.


poker11788 said:


> Now I wan't to make sure I understand what I think I'm seeing in your post.
> I'm understanding that you're saying that a professional would try to make right the things that were wrong but since I was such a pain in the ass that he had reached his breaking point and you in fact, would've reached it sooner? Correct?
> You should really think about this question before you answer it because if your answer is yes. Your saying that when a professional custom fabricator gets fed up with a client's bullsh*t it's basically ok to not follow through, use shortcuts and up charge a couple extra grand. If that's how you honestly feel there's a problem.


You are missing what I was saying and taking things out of context.


poker11788 said:


> Now this is all hearsay and cannot be proven. So I apologize in advance if it hurt's somebody's feelings.
> It's my personal opinion that there was NO slumber taking place on that wednesday at 4pm. Jon was not present because he knew I was getting the shaft and couldn't look me in the eye when they charged me an extra 2 grand AND the last thing in the world he wanted to do is deliver a $14,000 install to a guy he already knew hated it, but that's just me.
> Look I have written this all before and obviously everyone is getting tired of it but I will not be taking ANY ******** when it comes to this subject. I have proven everything that I've posted in black and white. I have nothing to hide.


I could speculate all day long why he wasn’t there, but I wont.


poker11788 said:


> Davel,
> You think I"m here to post ******** and abuse someone, use your head man. I have a daughter whose time is precious to me and I also have a full life. Do you actually believe I'm spending hours on this crap just to bash Jon. What I'm doing is not a game to me I believe it is important. I'm posting this for other people to see what I received for my money, and to basically warn them that entering into a contract with this company it is possible for it to end up being a horrible experience. I know your correct about his work he has hundreds of followers who all got AMAZING systems for a fair price, unfortunately I wasn't one of them.
> If Jon would've made just 1 call to me after the first thread was posted and expressed his understanding and just offered a few bucks back or even 3 or 4 hours in labor or just SOMETHING to say I'm sorry we have had our differences what can we do to make this right. I would've apologized on the spot in every forum that I was able to. I would firmly express how professional he was so on and so forth.
> Instead we've had a 4 month period of exhausting posts of this garbage. I've been writing this garbage for over an hour now.
> ...


At the end of the day, it’s simple to me. You are not happy with the product and services. If you feel you have tried to resolve the issue with Jon cannot reach a point of satisfaction, you need to report this to the BBB and initiate legal action.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

TheDavel said:


> Do you mind sharing all the e-mail correspondence between you and Jon with us? I’ve seen all of the correspondence and I’ve seen where you’ve confirmed that you liked what he was doing and where additional items were added/where “scope creep” took place in your project. When this happens, it comes at a price..


but is this the buyer's fault, or is it the stereo shop's fault?

I think the fault lies with the stereo shop for backfilling charges into an agreed-upon price.

The charges for "scope creep" should be renegotiated at the moment they are introduced, as changes in the project require revision of the original contract and must be agreed upon by both parties, otherwise the stereo shop that agrees to modify the original work is on the hook for the extra costs in labor and materials, and lost profit from mark-up that wasn't introduced into an agreement originally.

This didn't happen, I suppose because it's a big ticket install, the person acting in the shop's interests decided to waive additional costs until the moment the customer came for his car, at which point the customer is now forced into compliance to take his vehicle home, and also the point at which the shop becomes liable for fraud and dishonest business practices.

And it doesn't matter if "scope creep" was agreed on in emails, unless a new contract states the increases in cost and is agreed to, the only valid contract for services is the original one, and that one got peppered by the scratch-out lady pretty good...


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## etroze (Dec 24, 2013)

Most emails won't hold up in court because they can be altered. Pretty much if its stated in an email it is as good as a verbal agreement.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

cajunner said:


> but is this the buyer's fault, or is it the stereo shop's fault?
> 
> I think the fault lies with the stereo shop for backfilling charges into an agreed-upon price.
> 
> ...


In theory, I agree with what you have stated. The shop should have been fully transparent and stated the specific increase in cost for each change the customer requested/added... or that the installer added.

From a legal stance, they agreed to terms without boundaries. Neither party wins when this happens.

Business ethics are an issue through out this entire situation without question. Does that mean Jon is not an ethical guy or a bad guy, no. Does that mean that he will be the next Bill gates, yes. He like many other small business owners has a lot to learn. We all have to start somewhere and learn from these issues.


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Man I'd love to hear the other side of this story! I run a service business myself and I go to great lengths to make sure my clients don't feel like Poker here, even to the extent of losing money on a job. I know not everyone has my mentality but the way I look at business is that if I make a client very happy they will potentially return to me for further work and/or they will tell friends and family about my services. It's the Information Age and I've found that sometimes you have to bend over backwards to make people happy just to keep your name clean (not saying that's the case here.) It sucks when transactions end this way and I hope there is some restitution and reconciliation between you two.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

TheDavel said:


> In theory, I agree with what you have stated. The shop should have been fully transparent and stated the specific increase in cost for each change the customer requested/added... or that the installer added.
> 
> From a legal stance, they agreed to terms without boundaries. Neither party wins when this happens.
> 
> Business ethics are an issue through out this entire situation without question. Does that mean Jon is not an ethical guy or a bad guy, no. Does that mean that he will be the next Bill gates, yes. He like many other small business owners has a lot to learn. We all have to start somewhere and learn from these issues.


but the business is who should suck up the fees of education, here.

the stereo shop only creates goodwill when it agrees to changes that are absorbed by the original contract. If the "scope creep" became an actual negative to the shop's bottom line, they were incumbent to say so and refuse the changes, and risk losing the customer's business and fighting for what work was already done by then in court if need be.

trying to collect by falsifying the contract and presenting an altered invoice at the time of payment, is completely against the rules of business and totally on the shop, the buyer is innocent of those charges...


which does kind of suck, if the OP thought that the design process of a 14K build happens to be "change as you please" without any extra charges.


that would be the flawed understanding by the customer, that wasn't addressed in the original contract.

A stereo shop shouldn't be so eager to get a 14K install that they compromise their integrity doing "scope creep" as a way of keeping the work, then renegging on the deal at the time of payment by upcharging for the changes.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

cajunner said:


> but the business is who should suck up the fees of education, here.


I don't agree completely, but I respect your perspective. There is a difference in custom audio systems/fabrication and ordering a modified BigMac, however the process for changes along the way should mirror. If a customer orders something, pays for it and the transaction is complete. Then adding something like "cheese" after the fact is a new transaction, the customer should expect a charge, but the business owes it to the customer to state the charge and to solidify the transaction at that point.



cajunner said:


> the stereo shop only creates goodwill when it agrees to changes that are absorbed by the original contract. If the "scope creep" became an actual negative to the shop's bottom line, they were incumbent to say so and refuse the changes, and risk losing the customer's business and fighting for what work was already done by then in court if need be.


Completely agree with you here, but feel this could also be handled in other ways, but like I said I am on board with your thoughts.



cajunner said:


> trying to collect by falsifying the contract and presenting an altered invoice at the time of payment, is completely against the rules of business and totally on the shop, the buyer is innocent of those charges...


There are two sides to this... if a customer says I want "X" and pays for "X" the invoice will reflect that, but if the customer changes his mind over the phone or e-mail and "X" becomes "Z", then the invoice could end up looking like this one does. Maybe Jon lied to me, I am not ruling it out, but from what I understand, the customer changed his mind a few times resulting in the documentation being altered. The customer didn't change his mind in person and it was decided that things would be squared up when the vehicle was picked up. Jon had to document the changes somewhere, and it is obvious that he needs to work on his accounting skills.



cajunner said:


> if the OP thought that the design process of a 14K build happens to be "change as you please" without any extra charges.
> that would be the flawed understanding by the customer, that wasn't addressed in the original contract.


I'm sure the customer knew that changes come at a price, but Jon should've stated it and the customer should've demanded it if he didn't. I see some fault in both areas, but you know... "the customer is always right", to an extent at least.




cajunner said:


> A stereo shop shouldn't be so eager to get a 14K install that they compromise their integrity doing "scope creep" as a way of keeping the work, then renegging on the deal at the time of payment by upcharging for the changes.


I agree, but don't think that this is actually how it played out.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

Ok davel I just need to say a couple of things. NO changes were requested by email or phone, and certainly had no reason to expect any addition charges. The only thing I did via email which might be confused as a change in plans was the fact that I emailed them everyday trying to push my vision on him because he obviously wasn't listening. The only thing that I approved in person was an hour or two extra for that damn alternator and the only reason I did that is because he kept whining and whining and whining about how hard it was to install The damage ended up being12 hours in labor and I gladly paid it.

Davel you seem very intelligent to me and I believe no matter how you slice it doubling the amount of hours on an invoice tells me that there's alot more going on than poor accounting skills. Again I welcome any correspondence that shows that I've changed my mind enough to warrant extra charges to occur.


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## gregerst22 (Dec 18, 2012)

TheDavel said:


> I don't agree completely, but I respect your perspective. There is a difference in custom audio systems/fabrication and ordering a modified BigMac, however the process for changes along the way should mirror. If a customer orders something, pays for it and the transaction is complete. Then adding something like "cheese" after the fact is a new transaction, the customer should expect a charge, but the business owes it to the customer to state the charge and to solidify the transaction at that point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not picking sides here but you seem to be contradicting yourself a bit. At the beginning you say the business should owe to the customer to start a new transaction if "cheese" was added to the BigMac. Then later on you say that the customer should demand to be charged for the changes. Really? So if I go into Mcdonalds and order a hamburger and then ask that cheese be added it's then my responsibility to make sure that they charge me for it? Sound's like I'd be doing their job for them at the point. If they can't properly manage their own transactions that's frankly their problem not mine.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

gregerst22 said:


> Not picking sides here but you seem to be contradicting yourself a bit. At the beginning you say the business should owe to the customer to start a new transaction if "cheese" was added to the BigMac. Then later on you say that the customer should demand to be charged for the changes. Really? So if I go into Mcdonalds and order a hamburger and then ask that cheese be added it's then my responsibility to make sure that they charge me for it? Sound's like I'd be doing their job for them at the point. If they can't properly manage their own transactions that's frankly their problem not mine.


I see where the confusion may be... I try to keep a high level of integrity and never take advantage of a situation. I am apparently the exception, if a person gives me incorrect change and I notice it on the spot, I fix the error. I don't walk away smirking thinking a got a freebie. 

I look at life and acknowledge it for what it is, people aren't perfect, the system isn't perfect. I don't believe in capitalizing on someone's shortfalls in business or personal relationships. 

In my perfect world, they both have a responsibility to address price/services.


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## gregerst22 (Dec 18, 2012)

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for honesty but it shouldn't be my responsibility as a customer to make sure that the business charges me correctly. If I have to do that then I want a discount for doing their job.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I see the selection of a shop (car audio or otherwise) and what they charge as much different than buying a cheeseburger. When looking for "the right shop" there should be a lot of factors to take into consideration, cost is not the least of which. I doubt very many of us are going from restaurant to restaurant requesting a quote for a burger made just the way we like before making our lunch selection. 

I look at this much akin to getting bids for a construction project (something I'm pretty familiar with). If a contractor fails to bid correctly and doesn't discover this until it is too late to back out, that is on them. We go through this bidding process for a reason, and we expect those that we get quotes from to be competent in all aspects of their business (that includes estimating). 

If you have an understanding client, a compromise for additional cost can be reached when a contractor underbids. If they want to play hard ball, that is a tough lesson for the contractor to learn. On the flip side, if a client continues to add scope to a project, they shouldn't expect these changes or additions to be done without cost. Scope creep can be a very dangerous thing for both parties. If there is a likelihood of scope changing throughout a project, there should be a clear understanding of the process to address that change up front. 

And just to share one experience that is somewhat similar to Poker's. I had a shop that specialized in custom suspension fabrication and body work doing work for me years ago. I went to the shop because of one particular fabricator (I know some on this site would know him by name). When he jumped ship, my truck went with him because there was no one at the first shop that could complete the work he had started. Constant delays, changing stories, and continued added cost ultimately led me to give up on the entire situation. I gave warning to get the truck rolling, and drove 4 hours one way the next day with a trailer to pick it up. I waited all day for the truck to get to that point and paid an additional $500 just to get the truck back. (Essentially ransom.) 

When all was said and done, I was well over my original budget (with no additional scope added) and the truck was no where near what I had paid to have done. That was over 12 years ago and the truck has sat unable to be driven, ever since. Why share this? Because sometimes you just have to cut bait and call it a day. Even when it means learning a hard lesson. Poker, not to trivialize your situation, but, it could have been much worse. At least your truck still drives.


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## lsm (Mar 11, 2009)

This reminds me of a a story from about 30 years ago... when my Dad paid to have his Corvette repainted. The paint job itself looked incredible, too bad it was the wrong color. 

I hope you're able to get this resolved somehow.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

TheDavel said:


> I see where the confusion may be... I try to keep a high level of integrity and never take advantage of a situation. I am apparently the exception, if a person gives me incorrect change and I notice it on the spot, I fix the error. I don't walk away smirking thinking a got a freebie.
> 
> I look at life and acknowledge it for what it is, people aren't perfect, the system isn't perfect. I don't believe in capitalizing on someone's shortfalls in business or personal relationships.
> 
> In my perfect world, they both have a responsibility to address price/services.


I've been reading a lot about myself in these posts lately, the subject that keeps coming up is, should I the customer be ethical and not try to get away with not paying for charges and taking advantage of an installer because of an honest mistake that was made by the shop.

Sounds good, I agree

I've noticed that the term scope creep has come up on more than one post.
I can only assume that scope creep is when someone adds multiple little upgrades over time which ultimately results in a bunch of unanswered labor that the client doesn't wanna pay for. Correct?

Ok, I'm not an invoice specialist but wouldn't a remedy for a legit scope creep simply be solved with an entry on the invoice that read something like "additional upgrades requested by customer... labor 5 hours" or something like "misc. requests by customer... materials $240 labor 3 hours". Or at least "I did a sh*t load of work and I wan't an insanely amount of additional money... labor $1,700? The truth is if the invoice said any of those things, I would've reached into my pocket, pulled out $1,700 and gladly handed it over. I'm not gonna go over my invoices again and continue to point out their discrepancies.
Their posted it's easy to figure out. As far as I'm concerned my posts here reflect that I am not a cheap ass who is always looking to save a dollar at someone else's expense. 

I'm indeed an ethical person and most likely trusting to a fault and I would surely give the overage of change back to the clerk.


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## poker11788 (May 4, 2014)

TheDavel said:


> My apologies for coming off as bashing you. That was not my intent. I will say I am not full of crap, but will not give your comments about me or my character any more attention than I already have.
> 
> Do you mind sharing all the e-mail correspondence between you and Jon with us? I’ve seen all of the correspondence and I’ve seen where you’ve confirmed that you liked what he was doing and where additional items were added/where “scope creep” took place in your project. When this happens, it comes at a price.
> 
> ...


Davel, 

Just go to page 7 #155 and seriously read all of it. I really believe almost everything your talking about will be covered OR you can come to Vegas, we can go to a trade show (I believe the woodworking show is out). I'll take you to lunch, then we can go back to my office and read all my emails between Jon and I. 

Just a joke man. 

Really though, post all the emails that your referring to (Me asking for upgrades that require additional payment and such). I'll read over them and that will be that. 

It's funny you remind me of Al Pacino in Godfather 3 when he says "Just when I thought I was out. They pull me back in". 

Just when I thought I was done with this, I read one of your posts and can't help but writing back. Don't know why, but maybe your opinion matters to me.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

A installer should generate between 500-1000 in labor a day to a shop. Custom work almost always leads to shortcomings in overall gross profit dollars. I will almost never take in big jobs unless I have an installer that's willing to lose a lot of money, because he is passionate about a build and wants to do it. I honestly believe unless your ready to pay a private installer that is NOT part of a shop that has big business costs attached to it and a slew of other business distracting any given Installer on all the little jobs coming in. I think going to a stereo shop that does most it's buisness in basic deck n speaker jobs and hoping for a high end install is a thinking error many have falled into, I'm sorry about your install. I hope it turns out ok I strongly recommend you do the work yourself or stop being so picky or find a free lance installer that only does high end work . .02c


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

oabeieo said:


> A installer should generate between 500-1000 in labor a day to a shop. Custom work almost always leads to shortcomings in overall gross profit dollars. I will almost never take in big jobs unless I have an installer that's willing to lose a lot of money, because he is passionate about a build and wants to do it. I honestly believe unless your ready to pay a private installer that is NOT part of a shop that has big business costs attached to it and a slew of other business distracting any given Installer on all the little jobs coming in. I think going to a stereo shop that does most it's buisness in basic deck n speaker jobs and hoping for a high end install is a thinking error many have falled into, I'm sorry about your install. I hope it turns out ok I strongly recommend you do the work yourself or stop being so picky or find a free lance installer that only does high end work . .02c


Wow. Just wow! Maybe part of the problem is shops have installers with basic skills that try to take on custom jobs, high-end jobs and have no idea what they are doing!


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## SHAGGS (Apr 24, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> Wow. Just wow! Maybe part of the problem is shops have installers with basic skills that try to take on custom jobs, high-end jobs and have no idea what they are doing!


I didn't want to be the one to say it, so thank you.


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## mikechec9 (Dec 1, 2006)

oabeieo said:


> A installer should generate between 500-1000 in labor a day to a shop. Custom work almost always leads to shortcomings in overall gross profit dollars...I honestly believe unless your ready to pay a private installer that is NOT part of a shop that has big business costs attached to it and a slew of other business distracting any given Installer on all the little jobs coming in. I think going to a stereo shop that does most it's buisness in basic deck n speaker jobs and hoping for a high end install is a thinking error many have fallen into...


This has unfortunately been my experience as well. Sounds like you made or made up for someone's quota, intentionally or unintentionally. I've been in a similar situation. With mine it was the manager pulling the installer away for those high frequency jobs. Even put mine in the back of the store to be worked on. Ended up with a half behind product months overdue with a sub enclosure made of particle board lol. I can laugh about it now but at the time (quite a long time ago) it was closer to like Al Pacino coming back from the restroom in Godfather. 

This lead to me finding a different shop with an installer equally passionate but with a manager a bit more openminded. I would drop by and actually work with him on my project, oftentimes after the shop was closed. I learned a great deal about the art of installing that year. It was a more palatable continuation from the lesson at the first shop. So, I know that sick feeling. To me, your candor is appreciated. Even when your lesson was considerably more expensive than mine.


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## bobby23 (Jan 9, 2015)

Ryanu said:


> Just would like to share how mine was done. The price is 2.5k total... but it is in Ringgit Malaysia.


nice sound system


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Niebur3 said:


> Wow. Just wow! Maybe part of the problem is shops have installers with basic skills that try to take on custom jobs, high-end jobs and have no idea what they are doing!


Absolutely, yes ! Huge problem !, like I siad I usually won't even take them on. As much as I want to dive in there myself and sick out a ride , I know I work for a big box company that is not intrested in someone's soundstage, my skills are going to waste 99% of the time , any of my installers I would let them take on some basic Fiberglas boxes kicks pods but a entire system with all high end gear lets just say it would have to be the right customer and the right job or its a no! I would not get my self into the customer service nightmare , no thanks , but to the point , yes more talent please!!!! I would say with a gray deal of confidence I am the only one in my bay that really understands even a basic thing like time alignment , and all my guys can do fiberglass work , it's a shame.

Around our market we are known as the leaders in car audio, we don't have any specialty shops and the little ones that pop up from time to time are a joke, maybe in Cali or like this guy from Vegas you might find a shop or think you found a shop, but my point still stands unless you dig and look at pics and get more than one referral I would trust a shop unless I know dam well it's a high end shop , but than there in it to make money if it's a brick and mortar building and high end work is not profitable at least in my experience people don't want to pay what it's worth and in the rare case a guy will pay you know he's going to be picky why wouldn't he it's alot of money and you can never get what the coustomer envisions and the end product right without a lot of experience in it and going way beyond there expectations, that's a skill in it self , bottom line find the right guy not shop or do it you self

I'm not saying these shops don't exist either cause they do just finding them is the hard part in most cities


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