# Troubles with My Setup!?



## DaCid (Oct 17, 2010)

Okay, so maybe some of you guys can help me figure out what is going on with my system.....

So I have been running Eric Steven's Ultras and ID X-65's for my front stage for the last year and a half. When I first finished the install I remember how impressed I was with the horns and they're amazing detail. I thought the X-65's sounded okay, although I wished for more mid-bass punch. I have hardly driven the car (always driving my motorcycle or a work vehicle), but lately I have noticed that things are not sounding right. The mid-bass seems non-existent, I reversed the phase which helped a bit, but they are still very disappointing to me (in general, not just from the lack of punch). Now I am noticing that the horns do not seem to have that same detailing that I remember from the first listening. They seem muffled and lacking. Overall my front stage sounds hollow and unemotional (like there's no richness), that's the best way I can describe it..

My stage is low on the dash, more like at my stomach/chest level. I know that's to attribute to the fact my horns are not completely paired to my dash. On my next free weekend I am going to attempt to remount them and correct this issue, but that doesn't correct the issue of the 'muddy' sound.

I have the same amps as when I first installed them. I am looking into getting new amps right now, but finding a set of amps that will give me the power I need for everything to keep up with the horns is tough. I have found some, but if I ever went back to a typical component system they wouldn't work so well.....

Any advice would be much appreciated. I don't know if I should hope that adjusting the mounting of the components and replacing the amps would give me the results I am looking for, or if I should trade in my horns and X-65's for a set of Dynaudio's I've always wanted..... :/


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

First I would suggest inspecting the X65 remove the phase plug by unscrewing it and inspect the gap for debris. The X65 cone can deform and as it does it pulls the voice coil and spider upwards which really messes with the output. Inspect and get them replaced if this has happened.

You can also inspect the compression drivers to make sure that no Beria has found it's way into the voice coil gap. Remove the four screws on the rear of the driver and visibly inspect the gap and also drag masking tape folded for two sticky sides out through the gap and reassemble. 

When you change phase of a driver it will affect everything from stage height to image focus and position in the sound stage to the tonal balance. You will need to reset to original setting and then relisten after inspection and cleaning/replacement. If still not right maybe it needs some simple adjustments. Do the inspections first because if there is a problem you will only be chasing a moving target.

Eric


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## rockin (Sep 13, 2012)

Don't know if this will help, but I had a very similar situation with similar setup. I had more than one problem. First was 2 way setup w/ 6.5s in doors. They got moved to kicks. Next my 2 way setup never got a high stage in the car. Vocals were always pulled down by the 6.5s. I corrected this by adding 3.5s to my dash to cover frequencies from 750 - 250. My stage height SHOT up. I have never been able to get a high stage w/ 2 way horn setup. At the last show even Jeremy Daniels who went on to win IASCA SQ in amateur this year, commented on the high stage height when he listened to it. 

Muddiness was actually from a bad EQ in my case on the 6.5s. Had to cut freq's between 150 and 300, and since horns have poor high freq response, boosted 12k-20k progressively. 

I also upgraded my processing. Using Bit 1 made everything easier and better. 
I really enjoy tweaking, and spend hours doing it. Recently I've gone from 4th order slopes on all points (except subs) to 2nd order slopes and made a few x-over point adjustments. Also my local shop has an RTA and they are nice about letting me use it (I pay them) but its cheap and they let me use it as long as I like. That resource can really cut your troubleshooting / tweaking time if you can find one to use. Good luck - don't get frustrated, try and enjoy tuning challenges.


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## DaCid (Oct 17, 2010)

Eric, thank you for the words of advice. I checked the phase plugs on the x65's today during my lunch break, and I didn't see any kind of debris stuck in there and the coil didn't look warped or damaged in any way. I did not get to check the horns today, but I will when I remount the horns over my next free weekend. The horns did sound cleaner today though (I don't know if I'm losing my mind, or if maybe the cold weather or something from last night was affecting the amps), but I'll keep playing with them.

Rockin, thanks for sharing your experience! I will definitely keep this in mind as I move forward. What did moving the 6.5s from the doors to the kicks achieve for you? I will remount the horns and see where my stage is at then, and if I can't get it up with that, then I will contemplate adding a dash-mounted midrange. That is assuming I don't add a midbass to cure my lacking front "punch". 

I enjoy tuning, typically.. And an RTA is on the wishlist after new amps and installation supplies!  The only real 'tuning' I ever used my DRZ for was setting xovers, T/A, and cutting gain on the horns. However when I cut the gain it made the horns sound extremely muddy and cloudy, I removed the attenuation and it was 100x better! So I'm a little concerned with whether I should use the DRZ to EQ my system, or if I should give my dust-collecting Mini-DSP a shot with the tuning responsibilities. Any thoughts?


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

You need to remove the speaker to see if the cone is warped. And pulling the voice coil upward. This would really limit the amount of midbass.

Eric


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## rockin (Sep 13, 2012)

DaCid said:


> What did moving the 6.5s from the doors to the kicks achieve for you? I will remount the horns and see where my stage is at then, and if I can't get it up with that, then I will contemplate adding a dash-mounted midrange. That is assuming I don't add a midbass to cure my lacking front "punch".
> 
> I enjoy tuning, typically.. And an RTA is on the wishlist after new amps and installation supplies!  The only real 'tuning' I ever used my DRZ for was setting xovers, T/A, and cutting gain on the horns. However when I cut the gain it made the horns sound extremely muddy and cloudy, I removed the attenuation and it was 100x better! So I'm a little concerned with whether I should use the DRZ to EQ my system, or if I should give my dust-collecting Mini-DSP a shot with the tuning responsibilities. Any thoughts?


Moving the 6.5s moved my stage and bass forward. The Diamond Hex's also sound a lot better to me on axis instead of off axis.

Don't know enough about the DRZ (that's Clarion's bad boy right?) processing functions to help there I'm afraid. I want that HU for its converter, though. 
I've been through a slew of outboard DSPs and landed on the Bit 1 (although I have a PS8 I'm getting ready to install on another project) Ditched the 3sixty.3 and Alpine pxa h800, wasn't impressed by them. I've had horns in 3 cars and this setup has given me the only high stage I've ever had with them.


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## jpeezy (Feb 5, 2012)

sounds like file compression on the source,or if the vehicle has sat and battery died lost settings,i know processors these days are non-volatile memory,but you never know.what are you using for source media? ipod(i every so often get my settings on itunes or ipod messed up by my kids) or hard disc,make sure you are using the highest bit rate settings you can.anytime i have old customers come in and they complain about the same symptoms that you have, i go and get my "magic restorer cd"(store bought no file compression cd) and pop that in there and bam wow "what did you do it sounds amazing",then i explain file compression and its ill effects. good luck hopefully it is something simple.


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## DaCid (Oct 17, 2010)

I will have to remove the speakers some time when I get a little more free time and check for any warping.

I never have tried the x65's on-axis from the kicks. I have a clutch, so I know making functional kicks could be a pain in the @$$, but we'll see about that a little later.

Yeah, the DRZ is Clarion's masterpiece. This deck is amazing!  I love it, and it'll be hard for me to ever give it up (if ever!!)! I just don't have much experience with it's EQ. I am going to be moving over to Soundstream Reference amps here soon... When I get those I think I will compare the xovers on the amps to those on the DRZ and see which sounds better. Maybe if it can't handle the processing duties, then I'll try out the Soundstream Synthesis possibly.

I am a true CD person. I rarely own a song and not the CD it came from, so I know that I am getting the most out of the DRZ's 96kHz sampling.


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## DaCid (Oct 17, 2010)

Alright, so today I took your advice Eric. I pulled the x65's and inspected them closely. The cone didn't appear to be warped and the voice coil looked fine. I couldn't find one thing wrong with either woofer.

After inspecting them I played with my setup with the help of my brother, and we just couldn't get things to sound right.....  We played with the phases of all of the drivers, adjusted the xovers between 1.25kHz and 2.5kHz and their slopes (6, 12, 18dB), and nothing helped! The horns seemed 'grainy' at times and the rest of the time they were still less than spectacular. Those x65's have NO midbass, and in-turn the front stage seems completely hollow. We finally saw a minimal amount of midbass after dropping their hpf down to 40-50Hz, and it was still weak! 

Maybe there's a secret to tuning them that will bring them to life that one of you can enlighten me on..... Otherwise I think I am going to have to swap them out for something else..


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## jpeezy (Feb 5, 2012)

do you have another head unit you can swap in, sounds crazy, but i have seen head units with messed up pre-amp circuits that will cause these problems, and i've seen amplifiers do the same thing. if you have a decent bookshelf speaker disconnect all your speakers from your amps, use the known good bookshelf spkr and see if you get the same hollow sound you speak of.hate to see another defector from the horns camp, but ultimately your happiness is what is important.Good luck.


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## DaCid (Oct 17, 2010)

I don't have another head unit that I could sub in, but I do have a set of Focal woofers laying around my garage somewhere. Maybe I will try those out and see what happens later this week. I am not a big fan of the Kenwood amps that are powering the front stage, so maybe if the focal woofers don't help with things, I will sub in another amp and see what happens.

Thanks for the ideas! Like I said, I'll try these things out this week and let you know what I find out!


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## bitperfect (Oct 1, 2010)

It could be many things...I actually have a pretty similar set up as you DRZ-9255, ES ultras and ID CX62. 

I had a problem one time where I could hear a weird noise from my midbass. It was very annoying and difficult to track. While playing a song with good midbass I pressed the phase plug with my finger the the weird noise went away . Apparently I pressed it hard enough to move it a millimeter or so just enough so the debris would not rub and produce the awful sound. Later I stuck a piece of tape along the phase plug to remove the debri. 

Don't give up...and Good luck ! IMOHO horns sound amazing when set you properly !


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## DaCid (Oct 17, 2010)

Alright, sorry for not updating this thread, been really busy with work and school. Anyway, I have a couple things going on...

The other day I bought a new amp, Soundstream Reference 2.640, after hours of researching and comparing other amps. When I received it in the mail I hooked it up to the mids to see if it was just an amp issue, however it sounded worse. When I turned on the stereo, it sounded as if the speakers were only playing within the door and not into the cabin. It also sounded muddy and very attenuated, and while adjusting my xovers the fuse for the amp popped. I checked the wiring to the amp again and double checked that I had my speaker polarities correct (I did), so I grabbed a new fuse for the distro and as soon as the fuse completed the power circuit I heard the amp make an odd humming noise (similar to that of a small fan), and POOF. White smoke everywhere.  I opened it up and I don't know what the component is called (not amp savvy) but here's a pic with the problem units circled.









So tomorrow the amp is going back for warranty, and in the mean time I won't have any new amps to play with. :blush: 

I know that there isn't anything physically wrong with the woofers, no debris, warping, etc. But the other day it occurred to me, "Could I have a cancellation issue?" Is it possible that the back waves from the speaker are cancelling out my bass at the lower frequencies? I got some ensolite from RAAMmat that I was going to place behind the speaker and see what effect that played on things.

I really think my horns performing sub-par has more to do with my shotty install more than anything, so I'll be addressing that over the next few weeks.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

how do you have the horns setup? Other than physical install, there is not much to do here. Put an xover on it and go. I assume you have an EQ or DSP (with EQ) to help null out some of the peaks inherent in horns.

As for the amp, hard to say if it was defective or not. Have you checked to see if the speakers wires are shorted? Shorted to each other, shorted to Chassis ground?

the polarity of how you connected them will not make any difference electrically, although it can effect how it sounds. The amplifier wont care.


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## DaCid (Oct 17, 2010)

minbari said:


> how do you have the horns setup? Other than physical install, there is not much to do here. Put an xover on it and go. I assume you have an EQ or DSP (with EQ) to help null out some of the peaks inherent in horns.
> 
> As for the amp, hard to say if it was defective or not. Have you checked to see if the speakers wires are shorted? Shorted to each other, shorted to Chassis ground?
> 
> the polarity of how you connected them will not make any difference electrically, although it can effect how it sounds. The amplifier wont care.


There's a small gap between the mouth of the horns and the dash (which would explain my stage being at my waist), and they aren't pushed back very far or very wide. I'm hoping next week to retry installing them while I lay my ensolite and MLV. I have a 5 band EQ on the DRZ, but I haven't messed with it yet, I'll start playing with that once the horn mounting is better. 

I'm not sure why the amp went bad, but the smoke and overwhelming smell of an electrical fire makes me feel certain that it is toast. I don't believe there's a short in my speaker wires, I ran them about 2 years ago and they worked fine with my amp for quite some time. I don't have them running under anything that could smash them or wear through their insulation either.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

DaCid said:


> There's a small gap between the mouth of the horns and the dash (which would explain my stage being at my waist), and they aren't pushed back very far or very wide. I'm hoping next week to retry installing them while I lay my ensolite and MLV. I have a 5 band EQ on the DRZ, but I haven't messed with it yet, I'll start playing with that once the horn mounting is better.


I have my minihorns at the leading edge of the dash, no gap, but right at the front. Imaging and staging are both very good. Sometimes takes me by surprise. People have asked me if the tweeters (stock) in the doors are playing, because it dose sound like treble is coming from above the dash.

Guess my point is that it should sound good now. Installing them better might get that last 10% of goodness, but it shouldnt sound bad. my guess is that you have a harshness around 2.5khz and a slight peak around 6khz. In my car I have my EQ for the horns setup like this.

1.5khz -3db
2.5khz -9db
4khz -6db
6.8khz -4db
10khz +4db
16khz +6db
20khz +10db

not saying yours will be exact, but might give you somewhere to start.


> I'm not sure why the amp went bad, but the smoke and overwhelming smell of an electrical fire makes me feel certain that it is toast. I don't believe there's a short in my speaker wires, I ran them about 2 years ago and they worked fine with my amp for quite some time. I don't have them running under anything that could smash them or wear through their insulation either.


ok, its possible it was just defective. worth 3 minutes to grab a DMM and poke 2 wires in my mind


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## DaCid (Oct 17, 2010)

minbari said:


> I have my minihorns at the leading edge of the dash, no gap, but right at the front. Imaging and staging are both very good. Sometimes takes me by surprise. People have asked me if the tweeters (stock) in the doors are playing, because it dose sound like treble is coming from above the dash.
> 
> Guess my point is that it should sound good now. Installing them better might get that last 10% of goodness, but it shouldnt sound bad. my guess is that you have a harshness around 2.5khz and a slight peak around 6khz.


I see what you're saying.. Since I have my amps disconnected at the moment, I will try to at least flush the horns to the dash, then reconnect the speakers and play with the EQ and see how it sounds. 



> Ok, its possible it was just defective. worth 3 minutes to grab a DMM and poke 2 wires in my mind


Wait, maybe I misunderstood you. What were you suggesting I try on the amp? Sorry if I came off arrogant.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Oh nothing now, its cooked. Just poke your speaker wires to make sure you dont have a short. Dont want to damage another amp

sent from my phone using digital farts


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## DaCid (Oct 17, 2010)

Oh I gotcha.. Sorry, just misunderstood you. I did check that, but I'll double-check it tomorrow just to be safe.


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