# portable music storage device that sounds good?



## ryan roberts

I'm looking for a portable music storage device with a control screen on it similar to an iPod, I wanna be able to transfer my CDs on to it as well as wav wma and other non compressed files.. I finally broke down and bought an iPod cuz I'm tired of carrying my 500 disc CD case around but I transferred my discs to the iPod in the non compressed fashion and I listened 2 it for 1 day, its been sitting in my drawer at home eversince...I don't wanna buy a sesperate dac or a bass restoration processor if I don't have to...thanks for any advise


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## rich20730

There are several products that will pull a digital signal out of an iPod, but I'm skeptical that the iPod's internal DAC would be the weak link in most people's systems. You definitely shouldn't need a bass restoration processor. Is this for a home setup? Car? Headphones?

If you really think the iPod is degrading the sound, if I recall correctly, people rave about the SQ of Cowon players, or you could try one of the older iPods which come with a Wolfson DAC.


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## edzyy

cowon makes nice stuff

[ Welcome to COWONGLOBAL.com ]


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## ryan roberts

we have a kid working at the shop with us who is very technically inclined and computer age savvy..but he ain't a damn bit of help on this! ..he swears the iPod sounds good in my car. but I dont know what the helllll he's listening to...I do think that for all its worth in convenience the iPod is great cuz it does sound pretty decent, but it doesn't sound as good as an original CD


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## ryan roberts

ill look into thanks.. I'm running it into a clarion drx9255 via 3.5 mm to RCA cord for whatever that's worth..I have a teac integrated home receiver that has a built in dac specifically for iPod, and it sounds great..


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## t3sn4f2

Apple iPod portable music player Measurements | Stereophile.com

First iPod ever, 10 years ago.

"*The iPod's measured behavior is better than many CD players*—ironic, considering that most of the time it will be used to play MP3 and AAC files, which will not immediately benefit from such good performance. But if you're willing to trade off maximum playing time against the ability to play uncompressed AIFF or WAV files, the iPod will do an excellent job of decoding them. Excellent, cost-effective audio engineering from an unexpected source.—John Atkin"

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/77343-iphone-3gs-unloaded-headphone-out-measurements.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/138160-iphone-5-analog-output-measurements.html

And from an audio engineer's perspective. Using laboratory grade test equipment. Please note that most these measurements are 'loaded' down with headphone loads, so performance is degraded slightly. He refers to his iPod 3G as his reference portable device.

NwAvGuy: Sansa Clip+ Measured

Just saying.......


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## ryan roberts

hmm.. very interesting! ..ill have to try it again and possibly do some level adjusting and figure out a new means of feeding the audio signal.. thank you for the fyi.


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## t3sn4f2

ryan roberts said:


> hmm.. very interesting! ..ill have to try it again and possibly do some level adjusting and figure out a new means of feeding the audio signal.. thank you for the fyi.


No problem. Also check out my sig link. It contains valid points that can explain your experience. Things we are all susceptible to.

And make sure that you have all sound processing off on the iDevice. EQ, soundcheck, etc.


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## robtr8

5th gen iPod was the last one with a Wolfson DAC if I remember correctly. Either way your best bet is to convert your WAV's to a lossless format like Apple Lossless (if your keeping in the Apple family). Decent trade off of storage capacity requirements and SQ. Then don't use the headphone jack, ever. You can use a 30 pin cable to get analog out like the RadTech cable but the best bet is to use an off board DAC. One of the reasons why the 80PRS is so cool.


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## t3sn4f2

Hhhmm the measurements I listed were off the headphone jack.


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## ryan roberts

I've been playing with level adjustments and I'm finding that around 60% volume on the iPod seems to be ideal.. of course I haven't found a solution for my audio signal yet, but this is working for now, thanks guys.


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## robtr8

t3sn4f2 said:


> Hhhmm the measurements I listed were off the headphone jack.


The facts will never win against belief and prejudice.


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## quality_sound

Yep, which is unfortunate. iPods, all of them now, are damned good.


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## ryan roberts

u two sound like acouple negative Nancy's..never say never, I started this post and I am starting to believe the facts..its a fact that u can prove anything factual with the facts..lol


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## t3sn4f2

Which iPod do you have? None that I've ever tested have come back with anything but a clean signal at full volume and -1dB test signal playing. If you are getting obvious degraded sound at just 60% it could be that you are clipping a very sensitive AUX input on the head unit. Most have a ~1 volt RMS rating to meet the typical max line out voltage you'll see on the majority of portable devices. But I dunno for the drx since it is an older model where they might not have put so much thought into the best line in rating.

All my test in the previous link where with the headphone volume maxed and/or from a line out dock which maxes it out to that automatically.


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## Hi-FiDelity

Corwon is your best bet for a portable media player that put's SQ above all else. It also supports a very wide array of file formats (name on and it'll probably be able to play it). Also most of their players offer more features than an Ipod could ever hope to dream have (like having a micro SD slot for extra storage for example) and all for the same price (if not a bit less at times) as a brand new Ipod. The only draw back is that most HU only have built in support for the Ipod.


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## Freedom First

robtr8 said:


> 5th gen iPod was the last one with a Wolfson DAC if I remember correctly. Either way your best bet is to convert your WAV's to a lossless format like Apple Lossless (if your keeping in the Apple family). Decent trade off of storage capacity requirements and SQ. Then don't use the headphone jack, ever. You can use a 30 pin cable to get analog out like the RadTech cable but the best bet is to use an off board DAC. One of the reasons why the 80PRS is so cool.


As a general rule, you can't get digital out of an iPod, so a DAC won't work with one. There's very few that have been licensed by Apple to tap a true digital output. And, as you mentioned, if you have a 5th gen (or earlier), why would you want or need an off-board DAC?

Using the dock simply bypasses the headphone amp. It's nothing more than a line-level out. There's a long-running thread on Head-Fi about modding (DIYmod) the line out path with better caps to improve the sound, a~la Red Wine Audio's mod. If you're using the stock HDD, the caps go into a custom LOD connector. If you swap in a mSATA drive and adapter, you can free up space inside the case for the caps.

For sheer capacity, iPod is still king, and can be modded for more capacity. I currently have a 5th gen with a 256gb mSATA in it. However, it will not (at the present) work with Rockbox. A 512gb mSATA may be possible, but there's questions about whether or not the iPod will recognize that much storage (and nobody has attempted it, yet). 

The Cowon players (I have 2 - J3 and Z2) have great sound, but no digital or analog line out. There's numerous EQ curves in addition to the BBE Jet Effect settings, and a user-adjustable curve. The largest card you can put in them (microSD) is 64gb, which the Z2 readily accepts, but the J3 is kind of finicky about. Still doesn't approach the sheer capacity of some of the iPods. Incidentally, the Z2 (which is Android based) has a battery life/play time (with screen off) of around 15 hours. The J3 is like 50+.


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## robtr8

By-passing the headphone amp is why I suggested never using the minipin. My understanding was that it was a weak link in the SQ chain of events.

Burr Brown over Wolfson over Cirrus. That's my belief system and it ain't likely to change just because you have the facts to prove otherwise. That's the beautiful thing about prejudice, it doesn't require intelligent thinking.

DEH-80PRS bypasses the iPod DAC. No?


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## t3sn4f2

Freedom First said:


> As a general rule, you can't get digital out of an iPod, so a DAC won't work with one. There's very few that have been licensed by Apple to tap a true digital output. And, as you mentioned, if you have a 5th gen (or earlier), why would you want or need an off-board DAC?
> 
> Using the dock simply bypasses the headphone amp. It's nothing more than a line-level out. There's a long-running thread on Head-Fi about modding (DIYmod) the line out path with better caps to improve the sound, a~la Red Wine Audio's mod. If you're using the stock HDD, the caps go into a custom LOD connector. If you swap in a mSATA drive and adapter, you can free up space inside the case for the caps.
> 
> For sheer capacity, iPod is still king, and can be modded for more capacity. I currently have a 5th gen with a 256gb mSATA in it. However, it will not (at the present) work with Rockbox. A 512gb mSATA may be possible, but there's questions about whether or not the iPod will recognize that much storage (and nobody has attempted it, yet).
> 
> The Cowon players (I have 2 - J3 and Z2) have great sound, but no digital or analog line out. There's numerous EQ curves in addition to the BBE Jet Effect settings, and a user-adjustable curve. The largest card you can put in them (microSD) is 64gb, which the Z2 readily accepts, but the J3 is kind of finicky about. Still doesn't approach the sheer capacity of some of the iPods. Incidentally, the Z2 (which is Android based) has a battery life/play time (with screen off) of around 15 hours. The J3 is like 50+.




80prs taps that azz. Among many many others, this isn't 2006.


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## Hi-FiDelity

Freedom First said:


> Still doesn't approach the sheer capacity of some of the iPods.


The biggest Ipod Touch on the market is 64GB and the Z2 is 32GB internal + 64GB external equals 96GB, also the Z2 costs significantly less even with a 64GB micro SD card. I know the Ipod classic has larger capacity but you run back into the issue of having to play by apples rules. Another thing to consider is since almost every HU has USB inputs and supports fat32 you can get 1TB HDD and tell Apple to **** Off all together.


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## t3sn4f2

Hi-FiDelity said:


> The biggest Ipod Touch on the market is 64GB and the Z2 is 32GB internal + 64GB external equals 96GB, also the Z2 costs significantly less even with a 64GB micro SD card. I know the Ipod classic has larger capacity but you run back into the issue of having to play by apples rules. Another thing to consider is since almost every HU has USB inputs and supports fat32 you can get 1TB HDD and tell Apple to **** Off all together.


How fast does it navigate the external memory compared to the internal? Something to thing about when simply adding up gigs.

Also idevice head units index and navigate idevices way wayyyy faster than other USB hard drives, memory stick, non apple products. Some so slow that they are useless.


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## Hi-FiDelity

t3sn4f2 said:


> How fast does it navigate the external memory compared to the internal? Something to thing about when simply adding up gigs.
> 
> Also idevice head units index and navigate idevices way wayyyy faster than other USB hard drives, memory stick, non apple products. Some so slow that they are useless.


I've not used the Z2 but every recent device I've used that supports expendable memory can read and write to it jsut as fast as the standard internal memory. Remember SD cards are flash memory and as such the scan time is negligible. Even with the Classics 160GB and 260GB offerings flash memory is advancing far faster than HDD miniaturization. You can already get 128GB and pretty soon 256GB micro SD cards. Another thing to consider as far as using a HU to navigate a HDD is the drives RPM the slower the drive the longer it takes to scan for data.


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## Freedom First

Hi-FiDelity said:


> The biggest Ipod Touch on the market is 64GB and the Z2 is 32GB internal + 64GB external equals 96GB, also the Z2 costs significantly less even with a 64GB micro SD card. I know the Ipod classic has larger capacity but you run back into the issue of having to play by apples rules. Another thing to consider is since almost every HU has USB inputs and supports fat32 you can get 1TB HDD and tell Apple to **** Off all together.


Anybody who's interested in SQ isn't using a Touch. And, good luck on finding a 32gb Z2+64gb card for less than you can pick up a good used high capacity iPod.


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## Hi-FiDelity

Freedom First said:


> Anybody who's interested in SQ isn't using a Touch. And, good luck on finding a 32gb Z2+64gb card for less than you can pick up a good used high capacity iPod.


Anyone interested in SQ is looking at other devices as well and not just the Ipod. You can still get new in box high capacity Zunes for less than a new Ipod Classic as well. You can also pick up and old Iriver H10 and a Hitachi Travel Star 160GB or larger drive for less than a new Ipod classic as well. I'm not attacking you or anyone else for liking/using an Ipod, I'm just saying that they aren't the end all be all in the SQ portable media player market or even the portable media player market in general for that matter.

Though as far as used players go don't forget that the high capacity Ipods are HDD based and as such are very susceptible to failure after a fall, and that they have integrated batteries. Most people get rid of there old Ipods after A. The battery won't hold a charge any more and in the case of HDD players B. It periodically locks up, which is usually a sign that it's met the floor a few to many times.


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## quality_sound

Hi-FiDelity said:


> The biggest Ipod Touch on the market is 64GB and the Z2 is 32GB internal + 64GB external equals 96GB, also the Z2 costs significantly less even with a 64GB micro SD card. I know the Ipod classic has larger capacity but you run back into the issue of having to play by apples rules. Another thing to consider is since almost every HU has USB inputs and supports fat32 you can get 1TB HDD and tell Apple to **** Off all together.


Why on earth are you basing your comparison on the Touch. The Classic is 160GB.


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## quality_sound

Freedom First said:


> Anybody who's interested in SQ isn't using a Touch. And, good luck on finding a 32gb Z2+64gb card for less than you can pick up a good used high capacity iPod.


The Touch sounds just as good as the other iPods now. All of the iPods measure virtually identical and use the same output path. This wasn't true in the mid-2000s though.


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## quality_sound

Hi-FiDelity said:


> Anyone interested in SQ is looking at other devices as well and not just the Ipod. You can still get new in box high capacity Zunes for less than a new Ipod Classic as well. You can also pick up and old Iriver H10 and a Hitachi Travel Star 160GB or larger drive for less than a new Ipod classic as well. I'm not attacking you or anyone else for liking/using an Ipod, I'm just saying that they aren't the end all be all in the SQ portable media player market or even the portable media player market in general for that matter.
> 
> Though as far as used players go don't forget that the high capacity Ipods are HDD based and as such are very susceptible to failure after a fall, and that they have integrated batteries. Most people get rid of there old Ipods after A. The battery won't hold a charge any more and in the case of HDD players B. It periodically locks up, which is usually a sign that it's met the floor a few to many times.


My iPod video locks up occasionally and it's never been anywhere near the floor. lol
All it's ever been used for is my car and running until I got my Shuffle. 

I think everyone's point is that there is no reason to look further than an iPod because nothing will sound better, equal, but not better, and iPod still has a MASSIVE lead in compatibility. 

At 160GB you'll have all the in-car storage you'd ever need. No really need for 1TB in a car.


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## Hi-FiDelity

quality_sound said:


> My iPod video locks up occasionally and it's never been anywhere near the floor. lol
> All it's ever been used for is my car and running until I got my Shuffle.


 I was just saying that buying a used HDD based Ipod is a crap shoot and there are some more appealing options if you choose the used route. 



quality_sound said:


> I think everyone's point is that there is no reason to look further than an iPod because nothing will sound better, equal, but not better,...


I'll disagree. I'm not saying that the Ipod doesn't sound fine at this point but I can honestly say I'd rather not have apple telling me what I can and can't do with my music library. Itunes is a piece of garbage and I like being able to share music easily with my friends in what ever format that I have it in. I also don't like having to have a bunch of proprietary connectors lying around just for one device (as some one mentioned earlier it's not 2005 any more). The Ipod is fine and it works but it's not the end all be all.



quality_sound said:


> ...and iPod still has a MASSIVE lead in compatibility.


I acknowledged before that main lead the Ipod has is the fact that it is widely supported and that's a big plus but at the same time it's not the only/best option. 




quality_sound said:


> At 160GB you'll have all the in-car storage you'd ever need. No really need for 1TB in a car.


True, but when I can get a 500GB or even a 1TB external for less than a new 160GB Ipod why not? Also no one even needs 160GB in the car either, 64GB with 320KBps Mp3's is more than enough.


Though seeing as no one has mentioned this yet, what about Google Music. You get space for 20,000 songs (whatever the format) and you can stream them to your android device over cellular data or Wi-Fi. I use it on my Motorola Photon Q and the SQ is around that of 320kbps Ogg Vorbis (which stores 8x the information of a 320kbps mp3). Hell I even use it at work.


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## quality_sound

If the classic came in a smaller size I'd go that route. My video is only 30 and it has all the space I need unless I start loading a ton of video on it. 

Sharing can be an issue but if you're using 320 mp3s you don't really have an argument. Even if you want to use FLAC you can always convert it to ALAC or the other way around. You can't do it in iTunes but its not hard. 

iTunes is the easiest music management program I've used, hands down. You don't get the some of the conversion stuff that you do in other program but for ease of you, you can't beat it, IMO. 

The problem with streaming is the low bit rate, it eats data on your plan, and required you to use your phone as a media player. I, for one, HATE doing that. I'd rather have my music player in my car all the time.


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## Hi-FiDelity

quality_sound said:


> If the classic came in a smaller size I'd go that route. My video is only 30 and it has all the space I need unless I start loading a ton of video on it.


That's the reason I would recommend a Z2 with a 64GB SD card, it may not have the same amunt of storage as a Classic but it still costs less and you'll probably not even use half of the space. 



quality_sound said:


> Sharing can be an issue but if you're using 320 mp3s you don't really have an argument. Even if you want to use FLAC you can always convert it to ALAC or the other way around. You can't do it in iTunes but its not hard.


I agree, for the most part it's pretty simple. Though why should I have to convert my FLAC files just to use them in a program. Especially when there programs out there that can read every file format known to man and penguin. 




quality_sound said:


> iTunes is the easiest music management program I've used, hands down. You don't get the some of the conversion stuff that you do in other program but for ease of you, you can't beat it, IMO.


Jriver and Media Monkey do everything it can do and more. if you like iTunes that's fine, I just don't like how restrictive it is when compared to some of the alternatives. Also just an FYI Media Monkey can sync with a stock iPod and I believe Jriver can as well. 



quality_sound said:


> The problem with streaming is the low bit rate, it eats data on your plan, and required you to use your phone as a media player. I, for one, HATE doing that. I'd rather have my music player in my car all the time.


If you set it to HQ streaming it's easily as good as mp3 (technically better but...). I'm on sprint's unlimited plan so I have no data cap and my phone is on me at all times so it's not that big a hassle for me.


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## quality_sound

I'll have to look at those programs. I hadn't heard of other before. I, unfortunately, don't have unlimited data but that may change shortly. My main gripe is having to pull it out, connect it, then remember to take it back with me when I exit the car. I'd also have to have the cord exposed and that's what bother me the most. It just looks sloppy to me. When it's hidden, like in my M3, I keep forgetting to take the phone with me.


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## Hi-FiDelity

quality_sound said:


> I'll have to look at those programs. I hadn't heard of other before. I, unfortunately, don't have unlimited data but that may change shortly. My main gripe is having to pull it out, connect it, then remember to take it back with me when I exit the car. I'd also have to have the cord exposed and that's what bother me the most. It just looks sloppy to me. When it's hidden, like in my M3, I keep forgetting to take the phone with me.


As I said personal preference, it's just pretty cool looking at all the options we have as far as portable music players know as apposed to even 4 years ago.


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## t3sn4f2

____


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## ryan roberts

thanks 2 everybody for taking the time to contribute 2cents...certainly gave me something to consider


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## Earzbleed

Samsung have some great media players. My old, old yp-whatever 2gb was twice as loud as my Sony and had a 7 band eq that actually worked properly. Google "ïpod not loud enough"(or substitute Sony or other brands) and you'll see why I mentioned the volume levels of the Samsungs. 
No more media players for me though. The car and home system both read flashdrives. For 10 bucks, you can have a 16gb portable music device as long as you have something to plug it in to.


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## tyroneshoes

Pioneer and alpine seem to have little issues of sound degradation even with the current gen of ipods.

For those who want one with the wolfson dacs, I have an Ipod photo 80 gig and two 20 gigs ipods. I was using the photo but it wasnt compatible with current pioneer receivers.


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## Mcnulty

is there a way to know if we are bypassing the ipods dac? yes the specs can say it does but how do we really know its true?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4


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## quality_sound

tyroneshoes said:


> Pioneer and alpine seem to have little issues of sound degradation even with the current gen of ipods.
> 
> For those who want one with the wolfson dacs, I have an Ipod photo 80 gig and two 20 gigs ipods. I was using the photo but it wasnt compatible with current pioneer receivers.


I use my photo on a current pioneer all the time. Works perfectly.


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## quality_sound

Mcnulty said:


> is there a way to know if we are bypassing the ipods dac? yes the specs can say it does but how do we really know its true?
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4


Other than the manufacturer saying so, not that I'm aware.


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## t3sn4f2

Mcnulty said:


> is there a way to know if we are bypassing the ipods dac? yes the specs can say it does but how do we really know its true?
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4


When all that connects it is the digital serial USB cable. Wiki USB pin out. Oh and if using a current IDEvice with a lightning to USB connector since they don't have an analog output on that connection.


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## tyroneshoes

quality_sound said:


> I use my photo on a current pioneer all the time. Works perfectly.


Mine came up with an error stating it wasnt compatible with this ipod.

Put in the current model with video capabilities and it worked no problem.


Probably because I bought the pioneer ipod cable that looks for video as well. Also you may not have a video playing double din? Probably would work fine if I just hooked it up USB direct.

If you look at the compatible ipod list, pioneer states the photo is not compatible with the deck (x930bt)


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## Justin Zazzi

t3sn4f2 said:


> And from an audio engineer's perspective. Using laboratory grade test equipment. Please note that most these measurements are 'loaded' down with headphone loads, so performance is degraded slightly. He refers to his iPod 3G as his reference portable device.
> 
> NwAvGuy: Sansa Clip+ Measured
> 
> Just saying.......


+1 for the Sansa Clip+

For about $30 you get a player that is smaller, lighter, has voice recording and fm radio, and does not require iTunes (you can sync it using any software you like). For another $20 you get 32gb of storage. For free, you can change the firmware to RockBox if you like, but the factory firmware is pretty good. It will play just about any file format you can find including flac, ogg, and other lossless formats.

And for the life of me, I cannot find anything to complain about. As an engineering student I also place faith in NwAvGuy's in-depth review, especially how he adds a load to the headphone jack while taking measurements, and he is very impressed too. Honestly, I don't understand why more people don't try the Clip+.


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## quality_sound

tyroneshoes said:


> Mine came up with an error stating it wasnt compatible with this ipod.
> 
> Put in the current model with video capabilities and it worked no problem.
> 
> 
> Probably because I bought the pioneer ipod cable that looks for video as well. Also you may not have a video playing double din? Probably would work fine if I just hooked it up USB direct.
> 
> If you look at the compatible ipod list, pioneer states the photo is not compatible with the deck (x930bt)


It was an app radio 2. Video playback worked fine too. Very odd.


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## quality_sound

Jazzi said:


> +1 for the Sansa Clip+
> 
> For about $30 you get a player that is smaller, lighter, has voice recording and fm radio, and does not require iTunes (you can sync it using any software you like). For another $20 you get 32gb of storage. For free, you can change the firmware to RockBox if you like, but the factory firmware is pretty good. It will play just about any file format you can find including flac, ogg, and other lossless formats.
> 
> And for the life of me, I cannot find anything to complain about. As an engineering student I also place faith in NwAvGuy's in-depth review, especially how he adds a load to the headphone jack while taking measurements, and he is very impressed too. Honestly, I don't understand why more people don't try the Clip+.


You can plug an iDevice into damn near anything and have full control while getting audio quality that's just about perfect. Sure, the entry cost is more but the ease with which I can go between home, work, my car, my fiancee's truck, or work out with can't be overlooked.


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## Justin Zazzi

Fair enough. If you already have a lot of iDevice compatible hardware then that makes sense. I'm not saying it is inferior or bad.

I don't have any, so the ubiquitous headphone jack plugs into everything I own and I can access and modify my music (and charge it) from any computer I want without requiring specific cables or software or accounts. I just love the portable simplicity of it.


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## tyroneshoes

I have 3 ipods and an iphone and love them but just bought a clip+ 8 gig for $30 on ebay for walking the dog, fishing, hiking... 

Just keep it in the car. At that price, theyre disposable and I wont freak if I drop it like my iphone


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## JohnVella

iPods, all of them now, are damned good.


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