# Fiesta-ja vu? 2015 Fiesta ST simple SQ build - Arc, Mosconi, Stereo Integrity



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

some of you may read this log and swear you have seen it before...and that isnt necessarily false  we did indeed do a system for a 2015 fiesta ST not too long ago that featured virtually the same arrangement. there are some subtle differences though so here is the log for this one. 

goals:

1. achieve a nice level of sound quality while maintaining a low key appearance on the interior

2. take up zero usable cargo space in the trunk

3. retain spare tire and still allow easy access to it with the system components.

first up a coupla pics of the car 



















the signal source on this one is slightly different than the previous fiesta build. while the stock signal source is indeed retained, but instead of an amas2, we added a digital output box for his iphone as his second, more pure, source. due to that, we had to also integrate a mosconi dsp controller to act as master volume control when he is using his phone as his primary signal source. so jesse fabricated a similar controller mount as i did in the other fiesta. it takes up the little pocket direct behind the shifter and is finished in factory matching vinyl. here is the finished product, within convinient reach from the front seats:



















a few quick pics of what the controller mount looks like. it is a combination of MDF and acrylic that secures the controller to the mount, and then the mount press fits into the space:























































moving onto the front stage. the customer provided me with a set of Stereo Integrity TM65 dual voice coil midbasses. these were installed in the factor lower door location.

first, a matter of taking care of the wiring. since the fiesta has no empty slots in the door molex, we soldered onto the factory speaker wires right before and right after the door, keeping the factory run as short as possible:










nex, the outer door skins were sound proofed with blackhole tiles, while the inner door received some focal BAM composite damper. 










then i fabricated a set of speaker adapter plates for the SI midbasses, and coated them with several layers of truck bedliner to protect them against the elements:










this adapter was then bolted to the door using oem hardware:










and these cool DVC midbasses were wired up and installed, the gaps around the mounting baffle sealed with butyl














































the outer door card also got some CLD damper to help with resonance and vibrations:



















the same procedure was then repeated on the passenger side:









































































for the tweeter the customer supplied me with a set of the new KAXBLTWT tweeters. these are relatively large tweeters and after some playing around, we came up with a mounting pod that takes place of the tiny pillar windows. the pods were finished in matching vinyl:























































lets go to some build pictures by Jesse. This may look simple but actually involved a bit of work. because of the shape and angles in the A pillar, we couldnt actually just bold a singular pod...as if it was attached to the pillar, there is no way the pillar can flex and fit back into the car, like wise, there is no room for hte entire pod to slide into the window opening if the pillars were snaped on first. so what jesse came up with is a two piece design that allowed a smaller mounting pod to be mounted to the pillars after it has been snapped into the car.

first, these are the two pieces, a back plate with spacers and a front plate with its own inter spacer legs and the tweeter ring aimed and mounted:










the front tweeter pod then had mold cloth pulled, resin applied, and then reinforced from the inside via a duraglas/resin mixture:




























then several repeat processes of filler and sanded, resulted in a smooth shape ready for upholstery:


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

the back plates were then covered in a black material we like to call "simpliciflock"  and the front pods got wrapped in black vinyl:



















so here are the finished products test fitted to the car. right now, the front pods are just press fit in the space to show what it will look like:





































and here are these large tweeters with the long alphabet name 










so basically, what happened next was that the pillars, with only the back plates attached, were reinstalled back into the car, then the front portion is pressed in, and two screws lock the two pairs of mounting legs together, locking the front pod in place. the tweeters were then wired up and installed:



















so thats it for the front stage, moving onto the wiring pics. so this is the digital converter output box that is installed under the center arm rest area, the wire is routed upfront, to the center console and then back towards the passenger side:





































this bundle, which includes the power and ground for the converter box and the toslink cable, joins the passenger side speaker wires and is ziptied to the factory bundle every few inches. anywhere there is a stock conduit, it was opened, the new bundle laid down, and then closed back down over it:





































the driver side received the same speaker wires and the main 4 gauge power cable:














































the driver side bundle crosses over under the back seat and they all go to the hatch area via the passenger side. with the power and signal wires separated:


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

so thats it for wiring, lets take a look at the hatch, and here, its going to be virtually identical to the other fiesta as it utlizes the same gear.

so normally, with the stock floor in place, it is 100 percent oem:










but lift up the floor and you see a single sealed enclosure of about .5 cubic foot housing a stereo integrity BM MkIV 12" sub, along side in the empty place, is an arc audio xdiv2 1100.5 powering hte front stage with 4x150 watts rms, while sending 500 watts to the BM, and a mosconi 4to6SPDIF that provides signal processing and received the signal both from the stock HU, and the digital converter box. everything is finished in an industrial manner using spray on bedliner:





































now, if you want to remove the spare, you simply have to undo these four bolts:




























and you can then lift up the enclosure via the two handles on either side, and slide it out of the way:










a final shot of the hatch:










onto the build pics of the back:

one of the key difference between this car and the other fiesta is that this one had the space saver spare in it. as a result, i was able to dip down into the space a bit more and build a slightly shallower enclosure: so here is the bottom half of the enclosure:










and then the top mated to it, along with the handles on either side for easy removal:



















it was then coated with truck bedliner, and the SI subwoofer wired up and installed. while the bottom of the enclosure received foam treatment during contact spots to reduce any kind of buzzing:



















and here is the amp/dsp board before and after truck bedliner and foam treatment:




























and then i prewired the amp and dsp on the board:










a total of six rivet nuts were installed onto the floor to provide firm anchor points for the bolts:










and tahts it, things were bolted in place and wired up...and you end up with what you see above. 

simple, stealthy and functional. 

so how does it sound.

from most aspects, it sounds similar to the other fiesta.

the imaging and staging is very good, with good height, width and depth. the TM65s provides a ton of impact and is very very linear even at high volumes. i was quite impressed with these guys. the KAXBLTWTs also did decently well, though there were some irregularities in the response, some spikes and brightness that i wasnt able to dial down completely. it had very good detail but just slightly on the hot side for me (but i have a very laid back listening taste) at certain frequencies. i am not going to pass any judgement on them as i am honestly not that great of a tuner, and the customer is going to sit down with our own lycancatt, who is a master tuner, to see if they can smooth it out a bit more. the ability of these tweeters to go low though, had a decent effect on the staging and imaging compared to the other fiesta using focal flax.

the SI BM provided great output and extension at all volumes, and is such a great fit for this car given its limited space.

really enjoy working on these cars and with this type of build, the owner gives us very very little daily usability and appearance while able to enjoy a level of sound much higher than stock. win win! 

until next time,

Bing


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

Great job - as always. Simple, clean and effective. 

How do you like those woofers for a 2 way, do they play decently up high and how how can they go?

Thanks.


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## colaroaster (Apr 3, 2006)

I wish I lived in your area and had the money, i'd have my car at your shop today! Keep up the great work!!!


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

haha you posted this build log literally while I was tuning the car..

the car overall is quite fun, lively midbass, desent sub (a single 12 is never enough for me) and these..tweeters..

has anyone done independent fr graphs on these? they are beautifully made, go low as advertised, but I had to do some serious eq work and feel I will soon be doing more as we ran out of time. I don't feel that I should have to do this much eq work to any speaker, although I know no speaker sounds great right out of the packaging when installed in the car environment.

the tm65s did exactly what I wanted them to do, I ended up lowpassing them at 1500 hz because any higher and I had some serious peaks in response, and that's the area where the human ear starts to get sensitive to harshness. if I could, I'd rather have them crossing in at 1.2 k..but that left a pretty narly hole in response.

I love working on bings installs, they just..work..i don't have to take them apart, set gains, correct phasing issues, its a pleasure to get in and just tune without troubleshooting.

I've suggested the customer look into the aura whispers as they are very close in size to these tweeters, and for the cost of entry, would be a worthwhile experiment and an easy drop in.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

i swear i didnt coordinate with the customer to post the build log while you were tuning hahah i thought you guys had been done with for a while. 

it humbles me to see that a true master like you hears some of the same thing i heard while using my own very limited tuning skill set. 

b


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## PorkCereal (Nov 24, 2009)

Very clean. 
I keep hoping you get your hands on one of the 'upgraded' sound systems to see how you deal with the stock MFT+Sony amps.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

PorkCereal said:


> Very clean.
> I keep hoping you get your hands on one of the 'upgraded' sound systems to see how you deal with the stock MFT+Sony amps.


hey maybe you would know this...but does the fiesta actually come with a system that has a separate amp like the focus does? both times i think i was told these were the upgrade systems and both times it only out of HU. my database also does not list a amplifier option for any version of this car. 

but if its the sony systems like on other fords, its not unlike many that we have dealt with in the past, requires a lot of summing, input eqing and other related work. and wed likely recommend a secondary signal source like this car as well


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## PorkCereal (Nov 24, 2009)

Maybe if it comes with the hd Sony plus nav. That adds an 8 speaker system. But have no idea, I have the focus st3. I had to have damn heated seats.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

yeah if its anything like the ford edge premium system, summing is a nightmare because some channels can be summed without issue and some cant..and sadly I forget which now. but basicly summing creates weird loads on the factory amp which on certain channels causes problems.


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## GoMax (Mar 2, 2015)

This is actually my car, and it has been a pleasure having Bing do the install, and Lycancatt work with me on the tuning. I'm amazed at the skill of both, and feel fortunate to live in the area.

I'm on the fence about the KAXBLTWT, to be honest. They look amazing, and I was hoping for them to sound amazing, but in this application, with this car, they are not behaving like I want them to. I'm going to listen to them more (after our tuning session), and decide the next step.

I'm expect I'll end up trying other tweeters (that will fit my current enclosure), and see if I can find a better match for my TM65's.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

keep in mind I'm quite happy to go extreme on the eq if need be, I like to keep all cuts less than 6 db and all boosts less than 3 but lets be honest..that doesn't always work. so, listen for a few days, then call me.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Nice smooth work and finish as usual! 

Mmm, maybe in a few hours of play time those tweeters will sound better.

Where were they crossed at? 



Wouldn't the NVX XSPTW, fill the gap also? just a bit bigger than KAxbl


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

considering the car and install location of the tweeter, i can see why (at least on the drivers side) why the response seems messed up. tons of places for reflections in such a tight area


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

yeah that gauge cluster is doing us no favors, I was hesitant to go crazy with eq, trying to minimize all the fun problems that causes.


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## TaylorFade (Nov 9, 2014)

Bad ass.

I miss my little FiST.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

If it doesn't sound right, if it sounds harsh, it's a tuning issue way before its a driver issue. 1.6 khz is *way *too low a xover for that tweeter, heck even my Scan tend to get a touch harsh down at 1.6. Reflections off instrument clusters don't make the sound harsh .


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Fantastic work once again by Bing and the dream team. 

I recently completed an install with my buddy in his '14 Fiesta ST and we used the NVX XSP6ACT comp set which includes the XSPTW (SB29) tweeters. These tweeters are a fantastic value at $120 for the pair if purchased separately. And this midbass/tweeter combination gave us excellent imaging, staging, depth, and tonality right out of the box with plenty of midbass as well. Most of the work with tuning this particular system revolved around integrating the midbass to subwoofer transition.

I will reiterate that the OEM Ford SYNC My Touch/Sony system (there's no OEM amp) is a complete PITA to integrate and it's nearly impossible derive a clean, problem-free source signal from this HU.

We also decided to future-proof by installing both a set of RCA interconnects and a Toslink cable which were run from the front dash/center console area to the RF 360.3 in the rear hatch. This allows the use of a Pure i20 with iPod Classic/iPod Touch, or the digital Toslink output from select Sony Discman portable CD players, or practically any other digital or analog source, including the Amazingly Clean Analog "audiophile quality" Headphone Output of the iPhone 6/6+ as a source (see link below!).

Apple iPhone 6 Plus Review


The NVX XSPTW tweeters are just $90 a pair and the complete NVX XSP6ACT Comp Set is just $234 right now at SonicElectronix with the promo code, "NVX25OFF".

And the NVX JAD900.5 amp is just $224 as well. This would provide you with a top notch system at an entry-level price that'd be similar to Being's install, minus a DSP.

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_68822_NVX-XSPTW.html


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## germanyt (Aug 29, 2015)

Very impressed with the tweeter pods. I have a 14 Focus hatch that I'll be taking up all the cargo area in but I've been thinking of different ideas for incorporating more than just what factory locations will allow. I'm even considering full door pods for more midbass and using the factory mid and tweeter locations in a 3 way setup with no or minimal rear fill. I dunno, still getting ideas but I like what I see here.

My factory locations are up there by the side view mirrors.











I could use them and do a second set somewhere in the a pillar.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

I got a huge bump with my cluster, HUGE! and my left tweeter is in the lower left corner, just aiming up above the hill towards the ceiling part behind the front seats.

It has not been a major issue with sound or tuning, and I don't even have separate EQ per channels or a better DSP.


I keep hearing the TM65's work only in a 3 way, even crossing them at 2k, there should be a way to EQ those peaks to make them work with tweeters crossed just above 2khz.

I thought those NVX components were out of stock, those tweeters went up $20, maybe after Xmas, they will be cheaper. With that bump I have, no way I can keep them on the dash corners having almost 3" OD, on the door sail panels will be ok, but not sure I want to loose the stage I have now, or how it will change with my tuning limitations.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

sqnut said:


> If it doesn't sound right, if it sounds harsh, it's a tuning issue way before its a driver issue. 1.6 khz is *way *too low a xover for that tweeter, heck even my Scan tend to get a touch harsh down at 1.6. Reflections off instrument clusters don't make the sound harsh .



so your saying reflections don't present a problem? again with the blanket, and absolutely wrong! statements.

no tuner "worth there salt" is going to fight a driver that has major fr issues, you should know all about fr as that's all you seem to use to derive an opinion..so when theres better options out there, why shouldnt we look for them? why tune around inherent issues and create tons of phase issues with -10db cuts on the eq?


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## JBThompson (Oct 3, 2013)

simplicityinsound said:


> hey maybe you would know this...but does the fiesta actually come with a system that has a separate amp like the focus does? both times i think i was told these were the upgrade systems and both times it only out of HU. my database also does not list a amplifier option for any version of this car.
> 
> but if its the sony systems like on other fords, its not unlike many that we have dealt with in the past, requires a lot of summing, input eqing and other related work. and wed likely recommend a secondary signal source like this car as well


I'm a tech at a Ford dealer, if you like I can do some digging and see what I can come up with. If it's like the Mach system (at least in my Explorer) the head unit houses the amp for the front and rear, and the sub has its own amp. I haven't really torn into a Sony system yet so I'm kinda curious myself.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Lycancatt said:


> so your saying reflections don't present a problem? again with the blanket, and absolutely wrong! statements.
> 
> no tuner "worth there salt" is going to fight a driver that has major fr issues, you should know all about fr as that's all you seem to use to derive an opinion..so when theres better options out there, why shouldnt we look for them? why tune around inherent issues and create tons of phase issues with -10db cuts on the eq?


Any tuner 'worth their salt', much less a 'master tuner' will know the following do and don'ts:

1. Don't: Other than maybe 4-5 tweeters you don't HP a tweeter in a 2 way at 1.6khz.

2. Do: Everything that defines good sound, correct timing, balance, tonality etc etc is all *in the response*. So yes FR are kinda important.

3. Don't: If you have timing on each driver with reasonable resolution, say +/- 0.05ms, you don't need to flip polarity on any driver. It always hurts the overall cause.

4. Do: Cut what is required to get it sounding right. Sometimes it takes a 10 db cut to cut a 6 db measured peak. 

5. Don't: Don't tune with mindsets, 'I will not cut more than 6 db', 'I will always flip polarity of X driver'.......

6. Don't: Won't tell the client to listen for some time to see if it gets better. If the tune is bad to start with it's not going to get better over a week .

Should I go on?


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

the clients musical taste in this case lends itself to a livelier response than your average sq tune, so why shouldn't he listen to his own car to find what he likes and doesn't like? also, your ignoring the fact that when you do huge cuts in the eq, you sometimes create phase issues do to how the filters react to each other, yes even in digital.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Lycancatt said:


> also, your ignoring the fact that when you do huge cuts in the eq, you sometimes create phase issues do to how the filters react to each other, yes even in digital.


So what do these phase issues sound like?


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

they sound like phase issues, they smear imaging, they reek havock on tonal response and they should be avoided when you can.


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## GoMax (Mar 2, 2015)

sqnut said:


> If it doesn't sound right, if it sounds harsh, it's a tuning issue way before its a driver issue. 1.6 khz is *way *too low a xover for that tweeter, heck even my Scan tend to get a touch harsh down at 1.6. Reflections off instrument clusters don't make the sound harsh .


Just as a data point, Mark Kravchenko (the KAXBLTWT creator) said these tweeters should easily go down to 1.8khz with 24db slope. 

He's also had another customer who has had similar issues with them sounding harsh, and has been very helpful (and forthcoming) about what he knows, and suggestions on how to get to the root of the issue. 
His suggestion was to turn down the gains (it helped with the other customer), and indeed, that was something we've done as well. 
He also thought that we should cross over the mids at around 1800 with a 12db slope, to better blend the mids to the tweets.

During tuning, I let Lycancatt do his thing, and he (without being told the above from Mark), came to a similar setup. Just FYI.

After the tuning, they sound a lot better, quite detailed, and they now seem to work with the mids, rather than playing over the top of the mids (if that makes any sense)!


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

My Focus ST build is on the focusst.org forum, under my main username "Lanson".

You can definitely use my thread to see the important pieces if you want.



germanyt said:


> Very impressed with the tweeter pods. I have a 14 Focus hatch that I'll be taking up all the cargo area in but I've been thinking of different ideas for incorporating more than just what factory locations will allow. I'm even considering full door pods for more midbass and using the factory mid and tweeter locations in a 3 way setup with no or minimal rear fill. I dunno, still getting ideas but I like what I see here.
> 
> My factory locations are up there by the side view mirrors.
> 
> ...


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

This build is great, I have the exact same front stage going together in a Mazdaspeed 3. I'm still trying to figure out how to properly mount the tweeter since it has that weird ring thing going on. I'm probably just going to make simple pods on the sail panels, and just press-fit them in. 

Great work as always, Bing. Very inspirational as always, as well.


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## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Looks fantastic as always. Very nice integration work.

Once you guys get the tune sorted I need to hear this car.
Other than adding a set of mids to make a 3-way, those are the exact speakers I bought for my car but had to sell due to fitment issues.
Not that I'm in any way unhappy with what I ended up with - I think it's quite awesome - but I'd like to see (hear) "what might have been."


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

GoMax said:


> Just as a data point, Mark Kravchenko (the KAXBLTWT creator) said these tweeters should easily go down to 1.8khz with 24db slope.
> 
> He's also had another customer who has had similar issues with them sounding harsh, and has been very helpful (and forthcoming) about what he knows, and suggestions on how to get to the root of the issue.
> His suggestion was to turn down the gains (it helped with the other customer), and indeed, that was something we've done as well.
> ...


Just as an experiment try crossing mid and tweet at ~ 2-2.5khz on 24 db slopes all round.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

I actually am using 12 db slopes to smooth out responses and create frequency response holes on purpose to be able to use less eq to get rid of the harshness around 2 2.5 k. think the mids are lowpassed at 1500 hz? 

and, I've got a 12 db highpass on the tweeters at 1800 hz, but another one higher up at 2800 hz to again smooth out the harshness, and its still not enough lol. the ability to use different filters on the mosconi is really nice.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

So adding multiple HP filters is not creating phase issues? .


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## germanyt (Aug 29, 2015)

JBThompson said:


> I'm a tech at a Ford dealer, if you like I can do some digging and see what I can come up with. If it's like the Mach system (at least in my Explorer) the head unit houses the amp for the front and rear, and the sub has its own amp. I haven't really torn into a Sony system yet so I'm kinda curious myself.


Bro could you answer a question for me? I need to know the crank pulley diameter on a 2014 Focus SE 2.0L. And it also would be great to know if the alt casing for a 12 focus is the same as a 14. I work at a Ford store but my service department has no idea and I can't exactly go borrow a rack to check underneath with a tape measure.


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## germanyt (Aug 29, 2015)

fourthmeal said:


> My Focus ST build is on the focusst.org forum, under my main username "Lanson".
> 
> You can definitely use my thread to see the important pieces if you want.



Awesome man thank you.


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## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

simplicityinsound said:


> for the tweeter the customer supplied me with a set of the new KAXBLTWT tweeters. these are relatively large tweeters and after some playing around, we came up with a mounting pod that takes place of the tiny pillar windows. the pods were finished in matching vinyl:
> 
> [IMG]http://simplicityinsound.com/images/FTP/maxfiesta/max31.JPG
> 
> ...


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

Bing, do you or J0ey make templates for your fabrications? Like, for the mosconi controller in the center console. For the cars you have done before, have you created some templates that could speed up the process of the custom touches?

Don't know why I am asking, just curious I guess.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

SQ Audi said:


> Bing, do you or J0ey make templates for your fabrications? Like, for the mosconi controller in the center console. For the cars you have done before, have you created some templates that could speed up the process of the custom touches?
> 
> Don't know why I am asking, just curious I guess.


we have a template for the CUTOUT around the controller, but we dont believe we have one for this car. this one, being that the pocket is a tapering shape, means even with a template, a bunch of backfilling has to go on to make it sit correctly.  but there are a few other ones we do have templates on, though it seems they do sit a while as we dont get to do the same thing on the same car again


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

haha i figured the whole tweeter thing would cause a lot of responses.

as i said, i am not SQ master, or high level tuner...so i can only offer what personal experiences i have.

so over the years, I have installed thousands of tweeters in a **** load of vehicles, and with our client base, often they are NOT in ideal locations. so basically, we have had tweeters in all sorts of stock and aftermarket locations, aiming every which way. 

my opinion is that reflections off an instrument cluster shroud doesnt cause harshness like this, this is hardly the first time that this aiming result, forced by one issue or another in the car, has resulted in some reflection off the cluster. its not ideal but to me, it plays with the imaging more so than causing harshness.

so for me, i can honestly say, its been a very very long time since i havent been able to iron out some wrinkles in a tweeter at least to a satisfactory level...and again, this is across so many tweeters in so many locations, many of which are probably far worse than this one. there will be other issues associated with less than ideal aiming and locations, but this one really kinda stood out to me. and when i had it, it would happen on certain freqs at certain volumes.

i also placed a towel across the entire dash when i was tuning, and it didnt seem to make the issue get that much better. 

so again, this for sure could be the car, as it is the 2nd fiesta i have ever done, the first being one with the flac set with the tweeters more on axis. so it could be, it was just odd because i felt like i have heard tweeters in far less ideal places, and i could also adjust and make some kind of difference, with this set, i felt like i was going around in circles. 

but hey, in the end, we can all sit here and debate this topic over words and keyboard for an eternity and never resolve the issue. I think for Max, the only way to fully figure this out is do a two step process:

1. pop the tweeter out of the pod and place it on a towel at a different angle and see if that makes a big difference. though due to the size of the window and the tweeter there really isnt a whole lot more angle to be put on the thing before it wont go back in and secure to the pillar.

2. try a different tweeter in the same location and see if it changes. 

maybe we will do that and report back. 

off to the city to celebrate my wedding anniv!


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## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Happy Anniversary, Bing! Enjoy the time away.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

I'd press non-hardening modeling clay all up in those nicely finished seams around the tweeter until there was a flat plane surrounding the tweeter flange staring out at me, then I'd press a piece of 1/4" thick felt on the clay.

then I'd see how that sounds.


and then I'd rip the pretty little volcano/eyeball mount out, and sink the Kravchenko to the glass, and do a reverse volcano, or a pit mount.

Of course I'd have to shape it to force a wave-guide situation, because that makes it harder to do and looks a little funny but you know, while I'm spilling all this internet advice on my armchair, flexing my biceps, I gotta say I hope this isn't a tip of the iceberg sort of thing on XBL tweeters or just the Mark version, alas...

because I sort of want to look at the provided graphs and believe, you know...


better than CSS LD25X, improved everything, etc.


The possibility that the mild horn loading from the face flange on the KAXBLTWT is disrupting normal install maneuvers is disconcerting, since you can't just pull the grills and swap them out. I figure there's something about playing these down below 2 Khz that is making an issue, too bad in this install the distance and the mid bass aren't as suitably chosen for synergy in the low-crossing sweepstakes.

looks great though, very nice work on the fab and may be a teaching moment if the consensus is to skin this cat a little different with sunken tweeter mounts instead of the raised, natch..


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

i could be wrong, but iirc, the tweeter can only go down b maybe another 1/4 to 3/8" before the back edge of the tweeter chamber actually make contact with the back plate that covers the glass. so it would still stick out instead of being recessed, just a bit less.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

simplicityinsound said:


> i could be wrong, but iirc, the tweeter can only go down b maybe another 1/4 to 3/8" before the back edge of the tweeter chamber actually make contact with the back plate that covers the glass. so it would still stick out instead of being recessed, just a bit less.


good call, that jello cup sitting behind the dome is a bit large...

and I'd look closely at those tweeters, since other reports have them being smoooth...

maybe they are harsh because something is rubbing, the suspension on the flange or something..

otherwise, I can't see how the install is faulty.

or, I can't see how the install is faulty. <indicates period...


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

sqnut said:


> So adding multiple HP filters is not creating phase issues? .


god you have no idea what you are talking about, do some research on closely set eq filters effecting phase, then do some research on crossover slopes and how they effect phase.

crossover slopes are absolutely predictable in how they change phase, and very easy to compensate for if you need to.

just admit people do things differently and that you got called out on being wrong, its not that hard, in fact its probably good for you.


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## GoMax (Mar 2, 2015)

Great comments from all, and I appreciate the "vigor" of the discussion. 
As Bing said, these tweets, in this car, stood out to him as though something just wasn't quite right. 

My plan is to do some more tuning, and also try some well regarded tweeters (Audio Frog GB15's or the Scan Speak D2004), and see what happens. 
Any other suggestions?? 

It may be the case that I should have gotten different mids (that worked better above 2000hz), but I actually think with the right tweeter, this system will be amazing. 

More info later....


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

GoMax said:


> Great comments from all, and I appreciate the "vigor" of the discussion.
> As Bing said, these tweets, in this car, stood out to him as though something just wasn't quite right.
> 
> My plan is to do some more tuning, and also try some well regarded tweeters (Audio Frog GB15's or the Scan Speak D2004), and see what happens.
> ...



Not sure if you can score them as they are Italian, but I have excellent sound quality with Audio Development W600 mids in my doors in my FoST. I had to deaden the door 3 times over (meaning, I tore in the door and deadened, installed and then still had resonance, etc. x 3) because the W600's were just so darn powerful. They don't play super-high up but they are pretty happy crossed around 2.25kHz or so. I'm running the big NVX tweets in that particular install, but exploring other options in the future (probably Audiofrog or Scans.) The NVX are "fine" but not mind-blowing. The mids ARE.

edit: stupid auto-underlining of the word "audio", it was supposed to be capitalized. The brand is also known as AD. "Showtime" website is gone from the internet, I'm pretty sure they aren't paying for the word-linking so I'm pretty sure that should be fixed from the site. It is also a hella low-brow way for a website to generate income.


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## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

GoMax said:


> Great comments from all, and I appreciate the "vigor" of the discussion.
> As Bing said, these tweets, in this car, stood out to him as though something just wasn't quite right.
> 
> My plan is to do some more tuning, and also try some well regarded tweeters (Audio Frog GB15's or the Scan Speak D2004), and see what happens.
> ...


Bing can get you a REALLY nice set of Morels.


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> haha i figured the whole tweeter thing would cause a lot of responses.
> 
> as i said, i am not SQ master, or high level tuner...so i can only offer what personal experiences i have.
> 
> ...


All I heard was Jessy is a ****ty installer and screwed up the sound of the tweeters with his crappy pods.


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## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

DLO13 said:


> All I heard was Jessy is a ****ty installer and screwed up the sound of the tweeters with his crappy pods.


I don't see a smiley but do hope you're kidding. Nothing crappy about it - just a million ways to do an installation, each with its own set of compromises.
Irrespective of that, when I thought 2" tweeters in the sail window, I envisioned something rather like the coaxes in your sig.


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

tjswarbrick said:


> I don't see a smiley but do hope you're kidding. Nothing crappy about it - just a million ways to do an installation, each with its own set of compromises.
> Irrespective of that, when I thought 2" tweeters in the sail window, I envisioned something rather like the coaxes in your sig.


I think Bing knows that i'm a smart-ass.  Forgive me for not including the smileys. :laugh::laugh:

Those aren't 2" coaxes, they are 5" lol.

I actually found this to be a really cool log... Mike can tune, and its kinda cool to have a veteran tuner discuss the sound and tuning of a build.


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## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

DLO13 said:


> I think Bing knows that i'm a smart-ass.  Forgive me for not including the smileys. :laugh::laugh:
> 
> Those aren't 2" coaxes, they are 5" lol.
> 
> I actually found this to be a really cool log... Mike can tune, and its kinda cool to have a veteran tuner discuss the sound and tuning of a build.


It's all good!
I know your speakers are larger - I just respect the layout. That's how I dreamt of putting the KAXBLTWT's in a Mk VII GTI. Then I drove one. Then I drove a 135. So, no wing windows for me.

It is really cool getting insight in to how other people tune. Especially when you can enlist their help in person!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Jesse doesn't get humor...and he also moonlights as the shot caller for the nortes crime syndicate...I'm horrified for your safety daniel!  they've been known to smash car windows and replace quality pillar speakers with boss units!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## mino922 (Oct 8, 2010)

How do you prevent moisture from entering the vehicle after inserting a rivet nut?


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

just did what might be the final tune on this car, but we shall see as I'm not the one to live with it daily.

some serious eq work just happened, theres nothing over a -7 db cut anywhere, but that's in an area where a huge gap was left in the crossovers, we are talking mids lowpassed 12 db at 1250 hz and tweeters highpassed at 2800 at 24 db, and as bass ackwards as that sounds, it takes care of the mid beaming at 2000 and smearing the stage, and it takes care of the tweeter being massively efficient at 2000 2500 hz. so now you hear detail at the top end that the lower range of the tweeter being hot was masking.

all in all, I'm happy with it, but less than impressed that so much needed to be done with this mid/tweet combo. I really think the specs on the tweeter are misleading and that's unfortunate because the guy who makes them is super nice and the build quality is excellent.


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## GoMax (Mar 2, 2015)

What an interesting experience this has been... (longish post)

After the initial tune with Lycancatt, I headed off to listen to my tunes for a week or so. It really gave me time to go back over a lot of songs, listen to them on headphones, and then listen to them in the car. Often I sat in the car, listening to the headphones, and then the car.... it really allowed me to better understand what I felt was happening in the car (as I could directly compare the two sounds), so that I could communicate that to Lycancatt.

I'm a nerd, so I also used some EQ software on my PC to try to replicate what I was hearing in the car, while listening with the same headphones. That was helpful, as I wanted to have a common language with Lycancatt (2000Hz is muddled, 6000Hz is way too bright for example) rather than try to describe things with hand gestures etc. What I ended up learning was that the tweeters were still not detailed enough (or loud enough) - and sometimes still harsh - and at the same time, there was a really big hole in the 1600 - 2000Hz range. (or around there). 

Another tuning session began, and I shared my approach, and what I felt was wrong. 
Lycancatt nodded sagely, and we got to work.

Now, I was operating the PC, and I while I am great at following directions, when he crossed the mids at 1200, and the tweets at 2800, I was ready to ask him where the real tuner went? Didn't I just tell you about the HOLE in the vocals @ 1600????? Honestly, it was so counter-intuitive what he was doing, but as things got tweeked and tweeked again, that GIANT gap in freq started to fill in. Many of the problems started to disappear, and the system started sounding better and better. Read Lyncancatt's post above to get the details.

Just as a side note, we never boosted any freq's. They were all cuts. Sometimes a lot of cuts. It's because these speakers, in this car, need to be tamed to bit to work together. I would not have expected to put a big hole in the XO, and still do more cuts!!! One great thing was (as the customer) he explained what he was doing, and WHY he was doing it. It helped settle my nerves, and allowed me to listen as things got adjusted.

How is it NOW?

Wow. The front stage is really detailed, and is easily above the dash, and WIDE. Surprisingly airy and detailed. The mids have a lot of authority, and are nicely balanced against the tweets. Looking at the XO and cuts, you probably would think it would sound wierd. But amazingly, it sound really nice. That hole in the vocals is gone, and the tweeters are brilliant compared to the initial install.

Should you live in the area, and have the time, I highly encourage you to contact Lycancatt. Great guy, friendly, and has honestly changed my system into something I really enjoy, vs something I was contemplating changing the components to fix. This is the first time that I have dealt with either Bing or Lycancatt, and as a customer, I'd highly recommend them both. 

-- Max


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## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

I'm really glad to hear that you were able to get it sorted.
Now we need to arrange a local GTG to I can give it a listen.


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

I'd love to hear the car too. I've been following those mids and tweets since they were first introduced and I know a few people bought both with the intent to mate them as you have. That gap is CRAZY! Im glad it all worked out and you like the final product. Congrats!


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## mwmkravchenko (Oct 6, 2009)

Lycancatt said:


> just did what might be the final tune on this car, but we shall see as I'm not the one to live with it daily.
> 
> some serious eq work just happened, theres nothing over a -7 db cut anywhere, but that's in an area where a huge gap was left in the crossovers, we are talking mids lowpassed 12 db at 1250 hz and tweeters highpassed at 2800 at 24 db, and as bass ackwards as that sounds, it takes care of the mid beaming at 2000 and smearing the stage, and it takes care of the tweeter being massively efficient at 2000 2500 hz. so now you hear detail at the top end that the lower range of the tweeter being hot was masking.
> 
> all in all, I'm happy with it, but less than impressed that so much needed to be done with this mid/tweet combo. I really think the specs on the tweeter are misleading and that's unfortunate because the guy who makes them is super nice and the build quality is excellent.


As I am the guy who builds these, what would you suggest? You have my attention.

I know the tweeter well. I have measured many of them myself. Posted the raw on a baffle response. Any placement in a car is hugely different from the standard measurement conditions on a flat IEC baffle. So I'm at a bit of a loss as to what more I can divulge about the frequency response characteristics of the tweeter?

The tweeters are within plus or minus 1.5 db of flat on a baffle. They are not that tight in a car cup. And with the type of corner loading you are forced into using in a real life car installation what suggestion can you make to "improve" the tweeters response? A quick bit of math will show you that there will be quite a large peak in the response at a few locations. You have located these points in your statement. And none of the peaks will be due to your mounting method.

I like the mount. Beautiful job.

Trouble is that I can make a tweeter have a flat response. But I have to do it under a controllable repeatable measurement condition.

Tell me a vehicle that has the same reflection and absorption pattern as another vehicle?

So I can't tailor drivers to vehicle acoustics.

In a home audio screw mount faceplate with a slight cup, this tweeter can fall within a plus or minus 1 db window. That I have measurements of as well. And they will be posted in application notes on my website in a week or so.

So hit me with your best shot. I am seriously interested in any idea that could improve this driver for car audio use. It has been almost perfectly optimized for home audio use.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

the problem I had with the specs given was that it was suggested we cross as low as 1800 hz 24 db/oct. I'd absolutely love doing this in a home audio speaker, mating this with a large excursion eight inch driver for a seriously potent bookshelf speaker. and as you say, I think it'd work beautifully there. what I'd suggest is realize the efficiency between 2 and 3 kHz your tweeter has, and since you agree I pinpointed the problem areas as being right around there, tell people to cross them higher, knowing that acousticly they will still play lower and sound good doing it.


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## mwmkravchenko (Oct 6, 2009)

Here is the raw no faceplate, no tweeter mounting cup. It's the raw response of the tweeter. It's measured on axis on an IEC baffle. The baffle is roughly 4 feet wide by five feet tall. There is no smoothing what so ever.









Same driver. On an IEC baffle with the faceplate designed for home use.



I have a raw response chart posted in the first part of the thread for the group buy. Nothing hidden.

As for the crossover recommendations. They are made on the basis of what the driver is capable of. Not the frequency response alone.

This is basically the reasoning and measurements behind the design of this tweeter. I have comparative measurements taken in identical conditions of some very expensive drivers. I'm happy to say that this little tweeter holds up very well.

I'm working on a much smaller foot print version. And I could introduce a notch filter into the specs sheet that could help in the taming of the extra efficiency in the offending region. The main problem is that not every vehicle will require it. And many of them are being tune din using DSP. If I had to choose between DSP tuning and a passive filter, well DSP wins hands down.

I failed to say that I really respect your build work. Top notch. I learned a few tricks looking at the tweeter pods.

Seriously, if anyone has questions about the tweeters contact me. I don't bite. Product improvement is all about listening to knowledgeable clients.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

sorry, I cant see your graphs as I'm totally blind, so I go off what I hear rather than what I see. I appreciate you posting them though, as others will like to see them and how you achieve the specs that you do.

if I were building a high output bookshelf right now I'd be very likely to mate your tweeter with something like a scanspeak 26w 10 woofer, using a gapped crossover point to avoid the 10 beaming..though I'd mostly be on axis so it wouldn't really be an issue. once tuned in, I really did like the tweeter, I'm a fan of tweeters that can play low, but in this particular car, it behaved like a 1 inch compression driver on a constant directivity horn, very efficient from 2000 to 3000 hz which masked the detail it is capable o up top. what was strange to me is I've worked with a few other "large format" tweeters, or tweeters that were quite happy playing low like yours can, but they didn't need nearly the taming that this one did.

curious, am I alone in this? have you had any other complaints of harshness, and in what environment did you find them? having a tweeter capable of an 1800 hz crossover point is pretty bad ass imo, but I wish I could see the graphs to know what its doing right around there on each baffle.


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## mwmkravchenko (Oct 6, 2009)

Being totally blind explains the good ears!

So now that I know that let me do a bit of explaining.

To describe the response.

With no mount at all only placed on a large flat baffle.

Take a base line of 85 db describing the overall efficiency in a halfspace measurement.

The peak is starting at 1500 hertz. It rises 7.5db by the time you hit 1780 hertz. Stays almost flat to 3500 hertz and then drops rapidly to 85 db at 4000 hertz. So you have a hump, a little wider than one octave that you have tamed. There is a 12500 hertz small peak of 5 to 6 decibels it starts at 10 000 hertz peaks at 12 500 and dives at about 13 500 hertz. 

On the mount some of this changes. But I have to design with an acoustical loading that is the same for every driver. Hence an IEC baffle gets used.

If I had a few different cars to measure I'm certain that I would find a few different response curves for every different car I measured.

And no you are not alone in your characterization of the sound. One other gent had similar problems until I helped him iron out the response.

The rest of the campers appear to be happy.

One last note.

I have an 8 that will make you cry.

The finesse of the Scan Speak with 89db per watt efficiency and a meager 14mm X-max 17 mm mechanical.

Right now it is tooled for home audio.

But the 8 and the 6.5 is getting tweeked for shallow mount, flat diaphragm car application.

Won't be ready until the new year. But ready it will be.


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## truckguy (Sep 2, 2013)

Lycancatt said:


> some serious eq work just happened, theres nothing over a -7 db cut anywhere, but that's in an area where a huge gap was left in the crossovers, we are talking mids lowpassed 12 db at 1250 hz and tweeters highpassed at 2800 at 24 db, and as bass ackwards as that sounds, it takes care of the mid beaming at 2000 and smearing the stage, and it takes care of the tweeter being massively efficient at 2000 2500 hz. so now you hear detail at the top end that the lower range of the tweeter being hot was masking.


I recently installed the TM65s and appreciate the tuning info in here. Do you remember where you have them high passed. I know the sub is supposed to blend really well so I was wondering where you have them meeting up at. 

Great install Bing! You always have great builds on here.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

I'm happy to hear that the graphs matched my ears..because I kid you not, I think before I highpassed at 2800, I had a -7 db cut at 2000 hz! wow that's some close results for both of us!

I'm currently using quested monitors model vs3208 so I cant quite justify another speaker build..my secondary speakers use an old electrovoice tweeter that has a flange so big a 5 inch speaker grill hides it perfect, think the diafram is 1.25? this crosses at 2k 12db/oct and is lovely! but if it breaks its unfindably old, like 1990 or so old. I only say this to let you know, I'm a big fan of playing a tweeter low.


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## mwmkravchenko (Oct 6, 2009)

Good to know you are not crazy right!

Problem is in that car, with that location that is the response that we get. For me it really good to listen to and learn from the end user. 

I value all types of comments as long as they are reasoned out, and constructive. Be they for me or against me.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

truckguy said:


> I recently installed the TM65s and appreciate the tuning info in here. Do you remember where you have them high passed. I know the sub is supposed to blend really well so I was wondering where you have them meeting up at.
> 
> Great install Bing! You always have great builds on here.



I had a lot of door resonences so I ended up doing a 130 hz highpass but with a 12 db slope. this tamed the resonences and since these midbasses are very good down low, didn't lose any output, well it did but that was to compensate for the door being a poor midbass enclosure on most cars. if I didn't have to make them play up high I would have done 80 hz 24 db as I have in the past with them, but they really are midbass drivers, and are quite laid back in the midrange area until beaming.


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