# What ever happened to Old-School Low Power Competition Systems ?



## Allan74 (Jun 17, 2010)

_As I am 36 now, I remember when growing up and building systems 20 years ago and obviously more recently than that, my friends and I that were into Car Audio back then all seemed to have a common goal:_

*To build the best sounding/hardest pounding system we could, using the least amount of power.* To me, THAT was what made Car Audio fun, back in the day.

What ever happened to competition classes like the 0-50w, 51-100w, 101-150w etc ? and purpose-built hardware like Dead-Head Units ? super-hi current low wattage amplifiers capable of the constant doubling of power at half impedances ? ....right down to stupid/LOW impedances (.5 and .25 ohm ?)

I used to get excited to run out and buy a 12.5w or 25w/channel @ 4ohms amplifier that could produce near tripple-digit numbers at extremely low loads. Orion HCCA Amps, for me anyways, used to be the things that dreams were made of.

Now, everyone just runs out, buys a 100-150w x 4 to power their front stage and a 1,000w monoblock for their sub and calls it a day. Where is the fun in that ?

Obviously now, being 36, I don't have a close group of friends that I hang out with that are all into Car Audio, whom I would or could compete against friendly-like.....so like everyone else, I just buy big and call it a day. I feel like a sell-out.

I had a difficult time trying to figure out what had changed (for me) and why Car Audio was not as much fun anymore after taking a break from it all for nearly a decade....and it came down to simple bragging rights and being able to do THE MOST using THE LEAST.

I figure, if you are running a system that, on paper, claims itself as being 1000+w RMS @ 4ohms total unbridged/regular configuration power.....IT BETTER SOUND GOOD. Otherwise, what's the point ?

I own nearly 2,000w of that same _'on-paper-4ohm-power' _with all my Audison gear and I can tell you for certain......I remember having FAR MORE FUN with some of my previous systems 10-15+ years ago that were only a small fraction of that advertised 4ohm RMS power.

I have built more than a few 6-10 speaker/2-amplifier 100w systems (_25 x 2 amps, 2-4 subs, 2 or 3-way front stage_) in my time, *that I was far more proud of*, than the recent gear that I am getting prepared to install into my car....which is supposed to be my LAST/FINAL big-dollar system ever.

*So, back to the topic.....*
Does anyone compete in low power classes anymore ? does this style of competition even exist anymore ?

Cheers,
Allan


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## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

Almost 20 years ago I ran two Orion 425HCCAs and an Orion 225HCCA to 30 speakers. For 250wrms total "at 4 ohms on paper" it was damn loud and sounded good.

Now I run about 20X the power, and only 8 speakers, and it's damn louder and sounds even better.

Stuff's just different now.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I remember a buddy of mine having a bandpass enclosure that was roughly NINE cubic feet for one Savard 12" subwoofer back in the day. Sure it was loud off 180 paper watts RMS from a Punch 150, but NINE cubic feet...

How about needing roughly 3 cubic feet just to run a single 10" subwoofer ported OR 6 to 7 cubic feet to run a single 15 ported? 

I'll take a less efficient subwoofer that gets loud with a ton of power since power is cheap and space is hard to find these days. Conversely, back in the day, power was EXPENSIVE and space varied depending on the vehicle chosen. Back then 1,000 watts RMS was a big deal and cost several dollars per watt. Now, I have 1050 watts RMS in my vehicle and it cost me a whopping $375.


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## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

Good point about enclosure size, Chris.
That setup I mentioned above had two Cerwin Vega LE12Ds in about 5 cubes. 
Now I run twice as many 12s in 4 cubes. With WAY more output. 
The LE12s claimed something like 98db sensitivity, so box size was the tradeoff. The cones also buckled inside out if you ran 500w to them. LOL. I think they were rated at 250w. Fortunately Cerwin Vega was local to me at the time and recones were like $40.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

How could it be more "fun" to set up an entire system using 100 watts?

The only thing that would be great about using low power is to not have to do electrical upgrades. Though I run less than 1000 watts and haven't needed to do so


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## Allan74 (Jun 17, 2010)

Cruzer said:


> How could it be more "fun" to set up an entire system using 100 watts?


You completely missed the point.......

It was in fact quite a bit MORE than simply 100 watts.

Anyways, doing ALOT with very LITTLE is fun....alot more fun than unlimited budgets and thousands of watts of power. I bought the best drivers from a certain manufacturer without a second thought....not fun.


AAHhhh....
Back in the day when high current/low impedance stable USA Made amplifiers were priced like Bikinis. LESS cost a whole lot more


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## freemind (Sep 11, 2008)

I do miss my little Soundstream A50II and MTX MTA 225.

That said, I really do like running only 5 drivers in the car w/1060 watts and still have all kinds of room in the back.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

Allan74 said:


> You completely missed the point.......
> 
> It was in fact quite a bit MORE than simply 100 watts.
> 
> ...


Guess I don't get it even tho I had a small budget and am not running 1000 watts and I did a diy setup 2 way and nothing is of the same brand.

I wish it was still dirt cheap to build a setup and I wish I had the budget to run best of the best


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

Cruzer said:


> Guess I don't get it even tho I had a small budget and am not running 1000 watts and I did a diy setup 2 way and nothing is of the same brand.
> 
> I wish it was still dirt cheap to build a setup and I wish I had the budget to run best of the best



Do you have any idea at all what this thread is about? And why on Earth are you taking it so personally? (that's a rhetorical question, btw)


Allan: I know where you're coming from; there used to be something deeply satisfying about watching the display on an SPL meter climb when you were 'only' running 100 watts on your subs, and the highs were ear-bleeding loud with 37.5 watts/side. Everybody says that power was expensive back then, and it was, but it felt like you were getting much more for your money (or at least you should be) when a $500 amp was only rated 25 x 2.

As much fun as it was, amps aren't the showcase pieces they were back then anymore. Personally, these days, I find well integrated installations that are meant to be heard and not seen much more impressive - both for the work that went into them and the SQ they produce. My first question isn't: how much power are you running? Instead, I want to know: what's the PLD on your midrange? Know what I mean?


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

Chaos said:


> Do you have any idea at all what this thread is about? And why on Earth are you taking it so personally? (that's a rhetorical question, btw)


how am i taking it personally? what is up with you guys, this is the internet, none of u could say something to literally upset me.

i already stated i guess i dont understand the point of the thread. did u read that? clearly not.



cajunner said:


> the deception is the fun.
> 
> knowing that amplifier maker "A" has a line of amps that put out several times their rating, was really cool because you could walk over to the regular amp'ed of the world and say, "wow, that's pretty loud, what you got there, 500 watts running them 15's?" and then they walk over to your ride and you say, "yeah, I don't know how they do it, but ain't that loud for 50 watts?"
> 
> and a smug little smile comes over your face, as they twist, scratch an ear, and walk off slowly..



anyways i agree with cajunner here, now this is what would make me want/enjoy running low wattage.

perhaps thats what the OP meant, but it threw me off as im not old enough to know about some 12.5w amps, or a competition class that maxed out at 50 watts.


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## stills (Apr 13, 2008)

i'm running a SS ref 3.0 & 300 in one car. that's 100 watts

a jbl bp150.1 and punch 40x2 in another. 155 watts


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

As people have already stated, there never was a true "low power" class. It was a "low advertised power" class. 

Every system is a low power system--when you don't turn the volume up. Seriously, there is no difference between a 10k watt system and a 100 watt system if you are playing both at 80dB. It only matters if you like it loud. If you really want to get fanatical, yes you probably could build a system with drivers of 94dB or greater sensitivity, but that severely limits which drivers you can use. I'd rather build my system around my drivers than around my amp. Amps are cheap and readily available. High sensitivity drivers are not. 

I had a "100 watt" system in my car. It was two 25 watt Linear Power 2.2HVs and a 50 watt Soundstream Class A 6.0. You wouldn't believe how good a "100 watt" system can sound, especially when the actual measured output is more like 1,450 watts. What's the point of calling it a low power system? It's not. Yes, you could drive some of the old cheater amps into 1/4 ohm loads, but they'd get so hot they would desolder themselves. Why bother? You can get the same output at 4 ohms for not much money these days.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

I'm still running Lanzar Sound red ring's and PPI Art's, ......*you're* the crazy one's. 

OP you will enjoy the scans:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/no-question-dumb-forum/90788-ampguts-ca-e-july-1992-a.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...guts-auto-sound-security-november-1992-a.html


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Technically, I have a low power amplifier that I want to put into my install.... A Zuki Eleets 4 rated at 5 watts per channel.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

2 years ago I ran a MPS2240 at 1ohm to a iDQ10v2 (in a small sealed box) and was made to SPL at a sq show and it did 136dB which made everyone's mouth drop when I told them my amp had 24x2 watts! It was REALLY fun!


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## ncv6coupe (Oct 25, 2009)

This is easy, breaking the sound barrier of the windshield and driver and passenger window with the sound is where the SQ fun is buddy. That comes down to Install. And 130db subbass is "VERY FUN"


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

I still run PPI Pro Mos 50's in my daily driver. Crossover is a Sony XEC-700. Unfortunately, due to age and abuse there isn't alot of great 'old school' subs and components out there to go with my retro amps. I would LOVE to find a couple of first series Kicker 10" or 12" Competition subs in excellent condition to use and maybe some Rockford Punch Plates, ADS or Quarts as components. 

I remember the 'cheater amp' wars well! PPI vs. Rockford vs. Orion vs. Linear Power, etc. Mostly Orion HCCA's vs RF Punch 75's and Power 1000's in my area. I have seen guys do some amazing things with Orion HCCA 225's too. 
Some guys ran Epicenters, some ran 'exotic' boxes with Orion XTR DVC's and mirrors/plexiglass, serious competitors ran PA-1 pre-amps and either OEQ-1's or Audio Control EQ's.
I gotta agree with the OP, much more fun back then. Maybe it's time for a nostalgia class of car audio competition?


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

PPI_GUY said:


> Maybe it's time for a nostalgia class of car audio competition?


I am staying away from being nostalgic because the last time I went down that road, I found that my memory wasn't quite as good as I remembered it. Plus, I don't want to dedicate the space required to make a low power handling subwoofer play loud.


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## A-Ron (Feb 12, 2010)

My most memorable system was my old Kicker XPL's powered by a Audio Art 100HC.
That was a beast!!


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## lashlee (Aug 16, 2007)

I don't compete with that car, but the Fit has 50x2 and 100x1 for the sub.

I think it's a great sounding car for still kicking on low power!!


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## tanakasan (Sep 8, 2007)

ChrisB said:


> Technically, I have a low power amplifier that I want to put into my install.... A Zuki Eleets 4 rated at 5 watts per channel.


LOL!

Just don't run it @ 1/4 ohm!

Robert


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

4 ohms or higher

Pat will make more


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## IXspeed (Sep 18, 2010)

Very interesting discussion. Which speakers were folks using with the lower rated amps? I mean, an amp rated at 12.5w @ 4 Ohms pushed a bit more than that, but it still wouldn't equal to the megawatts of today. I'm asking, because I'm trying to find some sensitive comps for my own system.


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## FLAstrongman (Sep 22, 2010)

I feel ya op. I've messed with the huge power setups, and it just does not seem as fun as the lower power "bang for the buck" type setups. The most fun I have is using small subs on small amps. But the real fun for me comes with building the enclosures. About a year ago I built a box for 2 old JL W3 8's. Threw it in my wife's mazda protege, in the trunk, running off an old RF 360a2. Did a 141db legal. That was fun. Just got some ED 6" subs to play with. I'm going to try to get close to 140 with one of them.


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

Mc245 Is the only Soundstream I have left,... GREAT little amp, 

But I likes me a Class A 5.2 or 10.2.... .25watt x 2.... lol


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## Allan74 (Jun 17, 2010)

I remember one time during an install, a BIG-ass 6.5" midbass (_can't recall, MTX or kicker, but magnet, power handling and excursion that rivaled most subs_) hit the cement floor and locked up SOLID - basically garbage after that.

After that, what to do with the remaining single 6.5" ?

We built a badd-ass bandpass box for it and needless to say, it was more than simply a conversation piece when everyone seen (or rather listened) to what it could do....
THAT was one of those satisfying moments in my Car Audio past.......doing SOMETHING with next-to nothing


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## macutty (Nov 10, 2010)

Allan74 said:


> _As I am 36 now, I remember when growing up and building systems 20 years ago and obviously more recently than that, my friends and I that were into Car Audio back then all seemed to have a common goal:_
> 
> *To build the best sounding/hardest pounding system we could, using the least amount of power.* To me, THAT was what made Car Audio fun, back in the day.
> 
> ...


What happened? Well the manufacturers wanted to get their products out to more than just the slim "enthusiast" crowd and inevitably numbers sell better than quality.

I had this debate some time ago on the Rockford forums with one of their techs desperately trying to defend their then current line of amps (maybe 2-3 years ago). 

The problem with newer equipment is that the industry got together and decided to change the standard for rating power in order to meet this goal of putting a huge number on the box of their amps.

Back in the day most quality amps (PPI, RF, Orion, Soundstream, etc.) underrated for competition which everyone here seems familiar with. Power was always conservatively rated and at THD levels unheard of today (no one sold an amp that made more than 0.001% THD at RMS rated power from 20-20k Hz). The result was amps that had major headroom for over powering and cutting resistance....like running an HCCA at .25 OHM (show me any amp available in your local shop that can run 1/4 OHM stable these days....much less at reasonable THD levels).

Then....in the early 2000's there was a push for revenue growth and the industry got together and created the new rating standard (apologies, I forgot the name of today’s rating system....I've not been paying that close attention for a while now). The new system allowed them to take an amp that would have otherwise been rated at, say, 50x2 under the old regime and call it a 200x2. And big numbers, just like sex, sells.

They really didn’t care at the time that they were pushing lower quality product out the door, because, to be honest, they were targeting the consumer that either didn’t know about quality or care about quality. They wanted the guy who buys an iPhone because its an iPhone.....I want to be cool and impress other "don’t-know-any-betters" with my huge power rating regardless if my system pumps so much distortion at 70% volume that you can’t hear the music.

They were successful for a while and sales spiked, revenues were up and execs gut some nice bonuses. but while doing this they alienated the enthusiast who found it difficult to find good quality product on the shelf of the local car audio shop. These were the bread and butter customers for the industry, those that had the cash, and spent it, to get the top notch gear and kept coming back year after year for upgrades, new projects, etc.

But after a while many consumers just got out of car audio, and picked up other hobbies and interests. Then largely, all the industry had left to sell to (for the most part) was the uneducated mass-market consumer (excluding those hear of course  ).

The enthusiast market then shrank to a fraction of what it was and those mass market consumers are a fickle bunch who take up other interests on a whim....computers, game consoles, mobile electronics, etc.) which made it ever harder to push product and the same strategy continued in desperation.

Throw in a couple recessions, car manufacturers getting away from standard DIN sized head units and you have the struggling market of today which doesn’t present a lot of choice for those of us who worked months delivering pizza as teens in the 90's to scrape together the $600 it cost for that Punch 60 (2x30 RMS).

Now much of what I've posted hear is less than scientific but I think you'll find the basic scenario proves accurate. Reality is for those of us who reminisce over the days of pushing 4 12's with an amp rated for 200 RMS are relegated to Ebay to find that jewel that may have been financially out of reach in our more youthful days.....I love my new, I mean old PPI A1200


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## macutty (Nov 10, 2010)

What happened? Well the manufacturers wanted to get their products out to more than just the slim "enthusiast" crowd and inevitably numbers sell better than quality.

I had this debate some time ago on the Rockford forums with one of their techs desperately trying to defend their then current line of amps (maybe 2-3 years ago). 

The problem with newer equipment is that the industry got together and decided to change the standard for rating power in order to meet this goal of putting a huge number on the box of their amps.

Back in the day most quality amps (PPI, RF, Orion, Soundstream, etc.) underrated for competition which everyone here seems familiar with. Power was always conservatively rated and at THD levels unheard of today (no one sold an amp that made more than 0.001% THD at RMS rated power from 20-20k Hz). The result was amps that had major headroom for over powering and cutting resistance....like running an HCCA at .25 OHM (show me any amp available in your local shop that can run 1/4 OHM stable these days....much less at reasonable THD levels).

Then....in the early 2000's there was a push for revenue growth and the industry got together and created the new rating standard (apologies, I forgot the name of today’s rating system....I've not been paying that close attention for a while now). The new system allowed them to take an amp that would have otherwise been rated at, say, 50x2 under the old regime and call it a 200x2. And big numbers, just like sex, sells.

They really didn’t care at the time that they were pushing lower quality product out the door, because, to be honest, they were targeting the consumer that either didn’t know about quality or care about quality. They wanted the guy who buys an iPhone because its an iPhone.....I want to be cool and impress other "don’t-know-any-betters" with my huge power rating regardless if my system pumps so much distortion at 70% volume that you can’t hear the music.

They were successful for a while and sales spiked, revenues were up and execs gut some nice bonuses. but while doing this they alienated the enthusiast who found it difficult to find good quality product on the shelf of the local car audio shop. These were the bread and butter customers for the industry, those that had the cash, and spent it, to get the top notch gear and kept coming back year after year for upgrades, new projects, etc.

But after a while many consumers just got out of car audio, and picked up other hobbies and interests. Then largely, all the industry had left to sell to (for the most part) was the uneducated mass-market consumer (excluding those hear of course  ).

The enthusiast market then shrank to a fraction of what it was and those mass market consumers are a fickle bunch who take up other interests on a whim....computers, game consoles, mobile electronics, etc.) which made it ever harder to push product and the same strategy continued in desperation.

Throw in a couple recessions, car manufacturers getting away from standard DIN sized head units and you have the struggling market of today which doesn’t present a lot of choice for those of us who worked months delivering pizza as teens in the 90's to scrape together the $600 it cost for that Punch 60 (2x30 RMS).

Now much of what I've posted hear is less than scientific but I think you'll find the basic scenario proves accurate. Reality is for those of us who reminisce over the days of pushing 4 12's with an amp rated for 200 RMS are relegated to Ebay to find that jewel that may have been financially out of reach in our more youthful days.....I love my new, I mean old PPI A1200


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## Loudy (Nov 10, 2010)

I remember being king **** (or so I thought) among my group of friends when I mated my Orion NT12 to an old Punch 200 in a big ass ported box running with some cheap Infinity's from a Nakamichi head unit. I still have all of the parts but unfortunatley just killed the 12. I have two more Orion 2 NT12's but they aren't the same as that old carbon NT!

My buddy just GAVE me his old Orion HCCA 225 and I am still contimplating what I plan to do with it!

Love the old stuff!


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## SullyTT (Jan 6, 2010)

Orion killed the power classification competitions with the Concept amplifiers.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Allan the answer is very simple, power is cheap today. 20 years ago a ProMos 25 or HCCA225, Audio Art 100hc...cost $300+ today you can get 500 watts for the same money.


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## TXwrxWagon (Sep 26, 2008)

well I will contribute to the "nostalgia"

my license plate was "OHM MY! 75" for my 1975 mustang II coupe. All MTX amps/speakers. 7"/4"/1" for each of (4) passengers, 7/4/1 center channel (with Audio control ESP-3) & (2) 10" subs. All off one MTA 250 with a custom passive network for the entire enchilada. 

Pioneer Premier M800 Cassette/ M70 Changer Combo with DEH-P300 2nd controller mounted in the trunk. An extra set of MTX components in the trunk lid for shows.\

All of 1 "lil" 50x2 amp ;-)

So YES I remember those days.

Rob


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## dapert (Feb 22, 2006)

I still have all my old stuff from the early 90's so I can still keep it old school.


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