# 2009 MkV VW Jetta GLI



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

While this could have been a "System Design" thread, I figured I would post it as a build log because that is what it will ultimately be. That way, if someone is interested, they could see the entire process. 

Saturday we picked up the replacement for my wife's 2005 Scion xB. The vehicle of choice is a 2009 VW Jetta GLI. I think the car is a pretty nice example of the MkV Jetta and after a few days of ownership we're pretty pleased with it. 

This is the car parked at her new home between my wife's soon to go 2005 Scion xB (silver) and my 2004 Scion xB (white). 









The car has a few modifications, but is mostly stock. It is an Autobahn Edition and has factory options including Bi-Xenon headlights, moonroof, leather interior and the rubber GLI mats. The car currently sits on VW "SevenX" 17s but also came with a set of VW "Omanyt" 18s (from the R32) with mismatched tires (still decent tread). According to the previous owner the original VW "Detroit" 18s are "long gone." Other modifications include an APR Stage I and Stage II tune and Carbonio Intake. We currently have it on the Stage I tune, with no plans to use the Stage II. The only other non-stereo modification is the Neuspeed adjustable rear sway bar. 

Now, about that stereo modification... The previous (second) owner stated that the head unit in the car came with it when he got it. So either the previous owner (a lease) installed the head unit, or the dealership did. I am thinking it was the former. Why? I will never know. The head unit installed is a Rosen. I don't have the actual model number in front of me, but it doesn't matter. It is garbage. The absolute worst head unit experience I have ever had. It is supposed to be a Nav unit, but the navigation does not work (black screen) even though the SD car from Rosen is installed. Beyond that, the radio will randomly jump stations and reprogram presets. I don't trust the CD player to not eat CDs either. We received one of the previous owner's burnt CDs with the car, likely because he couldn't get it to eject. It took us quite a few tries. And while we were fortunate enough to get the HU to pair with my iPhone to stream music, the connection was not reliable. Still, the bluetooth streaming proved to be our best option. Needless to say, replacing the head unit is priority #1!

So, what is the plan you might ask? Or maybe you're asking yourself why that "introduction" was so long? Either way, now you get the plan. 

Unlike my car, there are no current plans for the GLI to enter competition. That doesn't mean that it will never see the lanes. But, I've seen firsthand that it takes a special kind of crazy... I mean, commitment, to travel all over the state with multiple vehicles and two kids to compete. (Papasin's you rock!) What we are looking to do is upgrade the 3 way front stage in factory locations with the best driver options possible while maintaining a pretty low budget. DRTHJTA has proven just how well a reasonable budget and stock locations can do in a similar platform. I'll probably be taking more than a few cues from him. For the subwoofer, it looks like we will go corner loaded on the driver's side of the trunk. As much as I would like to try IB, the wife's response was, "No way. You are not compromising my trunk space." (This was also in reference to losing the ability to fold down the back seats for storage. There are no plans at this time for rear fill or using the factory dash vent for a center. Though, nothing is outside the realm of possibilities. 

This is where I hope to get some feedback. Here is the list of equipment I have right now that will either be sold, or could be used within the vehicle...

*Head Units*
Pioneer AVH-P4000DVD
Alpine CDE-147BT

*Processors*
None

*Amplifiers*
Elemental Design NINe.2 (100x2 @ 4 Ohms / 200x2 @ 2 Ohms @ 12.5V)
Eclipse XA5000 (50x4 + 300x1 @ 4 Ohms / 75x4 + 450x1 @ 2 Ohms @ 14.4V)

*Component Speakers*
Illusion Audio Electra E6
Sundown SA-2.75FR

*Subwoofers*
Elemental Designs 11Kv2 D2
JBL W15GTi MkII

Technically, I have enough there that with the addition of a processor, I could piece together a 3-way + Sub active system. Though, I am sure a much better system could be put together by selling off what we've got now and buying specifically for this build. 

So, now I'm open to feedback from *YOU!*

If this was your ride, what would you be looking to install? 

Head unit? It will probably be the Alpine we currently have for now, but possibly a move to an OE or aftermarket DD unit. Which would you do?

Processor? My 6to8 V8 has been great so far, but do I look elsewhere? DSP-88R or a MiniDSP to keep it cheap? Alpine H800 to keep the possibility of a future center channel viable? 

Amplifiers? I'll need at least 7 channels. What we have now could work, but I would love something more stealth. I'm not opposed to class D, but have to keep the budget in mind. Do I consider a DSP equipped amp like the Mosconi and Audiotech-Fischer offerings?

The image below will provide some reference for speaker locations. The tweeters are in the sails, aimed across at each other. They may be angled back slightly, but they'll still be fairly off axis. The midranges are toward the front of the doors just above the arm rest. The passenger side has a handle just aft of the mid, the driver's side does not. The midbass (barely visible in the lower corners) are set toward the rear of the door at about your hip. I WILL NOT be considering SIS style pods at the front of the doors. 










I hope to find drivers that I can optimize in the stock locations to play below their beaming frequencies. (Save for the tweeters, of course.) And I'll probably be asking the most out of the midrange, since I'd like it to play solid down to at least 300 Hz, possibly as low as 200 Hz. 

Tweeters? Seems like a small format 20mm (3/4") is about the max size in the stock location. What is small, reasonably priced and works well off axis? 

Midrange? Seems the factory is a 4" driver, but it will need to be pretty shallow. Maximum depth seems to be somewhere around 44mm (1.75") which will be somewhat limiting. It would be nice to find something that could be crossed fairly low. What would be your "go to" in this case?"

Midbass? It seems that an 8 is pretty easy to get in there, so long as it isn't TOO large. I don't think a 9" or 10" driver will fit. I'd like something that can dig really deep, and really drop the sub crossover low. 

Subwoofer? With a corner loaded enclosure, the volume would probably fairly limited as would the mounting depth. I'd still want it to be solid all the way down to 20 Hz. 

So that's about it. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Especially if you come up with something that I haven't even thought about. If you're familiar with some of my other threads, don't be too surprised if you end up seeing some screen caps of a multi-tab Excel spreadsheet or frequency response plot overlays for driver comparison.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Are opinions from "a special kind of crazy" allowed?


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## eling23 (Oct 13, 2014)

Seems like this car utilizes similar driver dimensions as the BMW's. The shallow 4" drivers i looked at that would fit without modification were the morel hybrids, hybrid audio, and the car specific DLS/FOCAL/GLADEN speakers. I looked at the scans but it was really close. I wonder if the scans 3004 tweets will fit.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

papasin said:


> Are opinions from "a special kind of crazy" allowed?


Not just allowed, but encouraged. I have my own preconceived notions of what might work best and keep a reasonable budget. But I didn't want to say anything like that in the initial post and would prefer to see what others have to say first. Especially if they have information on products I might not even be aware of! 

I haven't even started any spreadsheets or photoshops yet.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

I've got some ideas.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

eling23 said:


> Seems like this car utilizes similar driver dimensions as the BMW's. The shallow 4" drivers i looked at that would fit without modification were the morel hybrids, hybrid audio, and the car specific DLS/FOCAL/GLADEN speakers. I looked at the scans but it was really close. I wonder if the scans 3004 tweets will fit.


I was thinking the same thing about the midrange whenever we picked up the car. Thanks for your input on the shallower 4s and vehicle specific drivers. I'm not sure, but I think that Scans might have to be modified to remove the flange.  I'm not sure I'd really want to go through that. :worried:



cobb2819 said:


> I've got some ideas.


I bet you do, but let's focus on the GLI for now. I think I know what your prevailing idea is.


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## craiggus365 (Apr 5, 2009)

I work for car dealers for a living and see quite a few Rosen (Dealer installed 'upgrade' units.)
High priced junk is an understatement!
The only advantage they have is the faceplates are designed to work in a factory position w/o mounting kit.
I LOL'ed the second I saw your post.


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## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

i also have a jetta MKV, I'm in the process of getting rid of my current trunk set up for some MUCH smaller footprint amplifiers. looking particularly at the ARC Xdiv2 6channel and the mono. and i will also be getting rid of my HU in lieu of a dash mounted iPad plus processor, either BitOne or Mosconi DSP 6to8 V8. I'm curious to see what you come up with and will definitely take cues from you. 

always subed for jetta builds!


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## oscardillo (Nov 16, 2010)

I have a golf mk5, and the door panels are the same.

I put the kit specific active Gladen Audio amplifiers VRX audison, origin and source of JBL MS-8.

I will follow your progress attentively.


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

Watching this one....


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

craiggus365 said:


> I work for car dealers for a living and see quite a few Rosen (Dealer installed 'upgrade' units.)
> High priced junk is an understatement!
> The only advantage they have is the faceplates are designed to work in a factory position w/o mounting kit.
> I LOL'ed the second I saw your post.


I'm glad my pain can bring you some amusement.  I've also been a bad husband. My wife has been driving the car every day and I haven't paired her phone to the Rosen yet. 



vwjmkv said:


> i also have a jetta MKV, I'm in the process of getting rid of my current trunk set up for some MUCH smaller footprint amplifiers. looking particularly at the ARC Xdiv2 6channel and the mono. and i will also be getting rid of my HU in lieu of a dash mounted iPad plus processor, either BitOne or Mosconi DSP 6to8 V8. I'm curious to see what you come up with and will definitely take cues from you.
> 
> always subed for jetta builds!


Do you have a build log? I might already be subscribed, but if not a link would be great. I keep telling myself to do this build "on the cheap," even though I am sure it will be a slow process. But, I wouldn't be surprised if it did snowball a bit into more expensive gear. In a higher end class D, I would probably end up with Focal FPD. 



oscardillo said:


> I have a golf mk5, and the door panels are the same.
> 
> I put the kit specific active Gladen Audio amplifiers VRX audison, origin and source of JBL MS-8.
> 
> I will follow your progress attentively.


The vehicle specific Gladen 3 way components are one of my considerations. And probably the very simplest thing to implement. How do you like the Gladen drivers?



hot9dog said:


> Watching this one....


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## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

no sir, no build log.


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

When did I turn into Rockwell? "It always feels like, somebody's watching me" lololololo


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

vwjmkv said:


> no sir, no build log.


You should put one together for your revisions. 



hot9dog said:


> When did I turn into Rockwell? "It always feels like, somebody's watching me" lololololo


Good to see I wasn't too vague.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Nice car, I have a 2008 GTI with Autobahn and APR Stage II which has been a huge pleasure to own.

Thankfully mine came with the double din stereo/nav unit and I was able to swap out the factory amp under the driver's seat for a 10 channel Dynaudio amp with custom DSP. They designed it for the Passat but it plugged right into my system and dramatically improved the sound by giving the stock speakers as much power as they can take. I've seen some people replace the Jetta/Golf speakers with the Dynaudios from the Passat option but am not sure what quality level those are compared to Esotecs.

I am saving up for a full aftermarket system install but adding that Dyn amp has made the wait much more bearable compared to what the original stock amp sounded like. The head unit I ended up buying is a Kenwood designed specifically for VW that drops right in. They're recently discontinued but can still be found:

http://www.amazon.com/Kenwood-DNX-719VHD-Volkswagen-DVD-Bluetooth/dp/B00GM6Y5IY


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> Nice car, I have a 2008 GTI with Autobahn and APR Stage II which has been a huge pleasure to own.
> 
> Thankfully mine came with the double din stereo/nav unit and I was able to swap out the factory amp under the driver's seat for a 10 channel Dynaudio amp with custom DSP. They designed it for the Passat but it plugged right into my system and dramatically improved the sound by giving the stock speakers as much power as they can take. I've seen some people replace the Jetta/Golf speakers with the Dynaudios from the Passat option but am not sure what quality level those are compared to Esotecs.
> 
> ...


Upgrading to the OE Passat amp is definitely an interesting stop gap approach. Thanks for the feedback!


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Upgrading to the OE Passat amp is definitely an interesting stop gap approach. Thanks for the feedback!


It sure is, the part number to look for is 3C0-035-456 and you want the -C revision or later. I found a 3C0-035-456-H but the earlier versions are more common.


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## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

I suppose I'll subscribe. 

The only thing I would say when it comes to the equipment is do your best to stay away from the OE head units... They seem to clip pretty early and are slow as molasses.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

DRTHJTA said:


> I suppose I'll subscribe.
> 
> The only thing I would say when it comes to the equipment is do your best to stay away from the OE head units... They seem to clip pretty early and are slow as molasses.


Good to know! I was actually going to contact some of the other members here that have removed the OE units to see if they were interested in selling. I think I might be better served to find an aftermarket DD unit that has all of the features my wife wants. And no, I don't think we'll be looking to go for an iPad in the dash. As tempting as that may be. 

I guess one nice thing is that with the Rosen already installed, I'm hoping any required aftermarket adapters are already installed as well. I guess I'll find out soon enough when I attempt to drop in the CDE-147BT that is currently in my wife's xB.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

FYI, the 4" midrange mounting depth is only 46mm but you may be able to get a bit more by removing the plastic cup. Here's a photo I took of the back when installing CLD on my outer door skins:


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Thanks for the info in the midrange. DRTHJTA had given me some information and I had estimated that 44mm / 1.75" would be my maximum depth. Nice to know a May have a couple mm more if necessary.


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## oscardillo (Nov 16, 2010)

I could still hear them in my car, I have finished installation.

If I could hear in a BMW, and I were very nice. Meet great for the price they have, it depends the level of demand for each.

I see easy to install, easy to amplify and easy listening.

Regards.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

*look up OPSODIS for the midbass speakers and the frequencies to look for each driver.*

I would go active 3-way front stage due to the midbass location and the 3-way OEM speaker locations if I were you.

i would think that you are going to want something with at LEAST time correction for sure. 


look into the *fatial pro 4" midrange*, it is very small and I think it would fit in the OEM speaker location. the *vifa ot19 3\4"* tweeter is inexpensive and would most likely fit in your location and is a nice directional ring radiator driver to help avoid reflections. 

as far as midbass maybe check out *the beyma 8BR40 that strakele got. he raved about in his build log that seems to be a solid performer*, coming from his praise I would consider it and I don't think it will break the budget.

if you're still *interested in infinite baffle and don't want to piss off the wife, you could always put the speakers in the rear deck* and not even have to fiberglass and take up minimal space in the rear deck. from what I recall, jettas have quite a bit of space there - but im not super familiar with the MKV.

im subscribed, a little biased, so I look forward to see what you do with your build 

feel free to look through my two VW build logs in my signature.


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

Some 8's on the rear deck panel would look nice. I'm not sure if the rear deck dimensionally would accommodate them. That would help out with keeping trunk space.


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## oscardillo (Nov 16, 2010)

rton20s said:


> Thanks for the info in the midrange. DRTHJTA had given me some information and I had estimated that 44mm / 1.75" would be my maximum depth. Nice to know a May have a couple mm more if necessary.



Are you sure about this? 44mm seems too little.

Watch this video (10 minutes) places 3½ "Gladen audio, its depth is 86mm.

I imagine that the panel is the same as the Jetta Golf MK5.

Gladen Audio HG-80 SQX-3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDtMhHVmQIU


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

hot9dog said:


> Some 8's on the rear deck panel would look nice. I'm not sure if the rear deck dimensionally would accommodate them. That would help out with keeping trunk space.


I don't think I want (nor would the wife allow me) to cut this up...









It appears that there might be some pre-fabbed sealed enclosures available for the corner of the trunk. This is what I was going to build anyway, so I might see if one of those options is any good.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

oscardillo said:


> Are you sure about this? 44mm seems too little.
> 
> Watch this video (10 minutes) places 3½ "Gladen audio, its depth is 86mm.
> 
> ...


I haven't opened up my doors yet. I am going by what others with experience have told me. And for reference, the Gladen Zero 80 Pro has less than 42mm mounting depth. None of the 80mm drivers from Gladen are anywhere near 86mm in depth. Diameter, yes. But not depth.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

req said:


> *look up OPSODIS for the midbass speakers and the frequencies to look for each driver.*
> 
> I would go active 3-way front stage due to the midbass location and the 3-way OEM speaker locations if I were you.
> 
> i would think that you are going to want something with at LEAST time correction for sure.


Thanks for the link. I skimmed through that OPSODIS thread again, though I remember reading through it a couple of years ago. 

The car will definitely be fully active. We'll just need to decide which processor to use, or if an amplifier with built in DSP will be the best solution. 




req said:


> look into the *fatial pro 4" midrange*, it is very small and I think it would fit in the OEM speaker location. the *vifa ot19 3\4"* tweeter is inexpensive and would most likely fit in your location and is a nice directional ring radiator driver to help avoid reflections.


Thanks for providing some driver recommendations. I have received a few outside of this thread, but not much within it yet. FaitalPro has been one of my considerations for the midrange. However, I'm not sure the 3FE25 would fit. Luckily the neo-motor 3FE22 and 4FE32 look to be shallow enough to fit in the stock location. 

I was wondering how long it would take someone to recommend the Vifa ring radiator as well. I know the XT25 has seemed to be the "go to" cheap tweet around these parts in the past. I saw the OT19 myself and thought it could be a viable option. Appears that it will fit and the measures response at 30 degrees seems decent. I still haven't measured how many degrees I am off axis from each of the tweeter positions. 



req said:


> as far as midbass maybe check out *the beyma 8BR40 that strakele got. he raved about in his build log that seems to be a solid performer*, coming from his praise I would consider it and I don't think it will break the budget.


I hadn't looked at the Beyma, but I will take them into consideration. I am really wondering though whether a good 6.5"/7" driver or an 8" driver will work better in this location. I don't want the 8s to be choked, but I also don't want a 6.5 that runs out of steam on the bottom end. 



req said:


> if you're still *interested in infinite baffle and don't want to piss off the wife, you could always put the speakers in the rear deck* and not even have to fiberglass and take up minimal space in the rear deck. from what I recall, jettas have quite a bit of space there - but im not super familiar with the MKV.


As I mentioned in one of the other responses, I just don't think IB (even in the rear deck) is going to be an option. Especially when two out of the three car seat retention hooks will be utilized 99% of the time. I think corner loading is where it will be at. 



req said:


> im subscribed, a little biased, so I look forward to see what you do with your build
> 
> feel free to look through my two VW build logs in my signature.


Will do. I'm already pretty familiar with your 03 build log.


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## glidn (Apr 21, 2007)

will be interested to see what you come up with?
I took much time to try and find a midrange driver to fit. I personally ended up with using Hertz HSK163.4 (3 Way components) for my GTI.

here is my build log from last year sometime.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...gallery/160779-2007-golf-gti-mkv-semi-sq.html

with some luck there maybe something useful for you to use I hope?

None the less, you can get small enough amps and EQ's these days so that the amplifiers could be located under the front seats. So the Sub only occupies the cavity in the side of the boot?

Well just a thought anyway.
like the color and option choice indeed. If we had those specs in a white Jetta here in NZ. 
I would most certainly have owned a Jetta instead of a Golf.


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## oscardillo (Nov 16, 2010)

rton20s said:


> I haven't opened up my doors yet. I am going by what others with experience have told me. And for reference, the Gladen Zero 80 Pro has less than 42mm mounting depth. None of the 80mm drivers from Gladen are anywhere near 86mm in depth. Diameter, yes. But not depth.


Sorry for the confusion


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

glidn said:


> will be interested to see what you come up with?
> I took much time to try and find a midrange driver to fit. I personally ended up with using Hertz HSK163.4 (3 Way components) for my GTI.
> 
> here is my build log from last year sometime.
> ...


Thanks. I'll take a look through your build. I haven't really scoped out where we will put the amps yet, but they will surely be hidden away somewhere. That will probably drive us toward compact Class D options. 



oscardillo said:


> Sorry for the confusion


No problem. Just wanted to clarify.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Just a comment/update on the space available for tweeters. I still haven't opened up the doors yet, but in looking at other installs online, it does seem that a larger tweeter than 3/4"/20mm could be an option with some mild modification of the sail panel. I would still need to look at small format due to the limitations of the sail panel tweeter housing. Tweeters with integrated grills would also likely be a better option due to how the tweeter will be mounted. The smaller tweeters may not need a grill, if the housing doesn't need to be modified. 

With what I have seen, it would appear that small format 1" or possibly even 1 1/8" tweeters could be an option.


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## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

i have some 8 inch Daytons in my doors, too some pretty think baffles but they work and fit well. i make go after the 3 inch Dayton mids like Darth did also, they will be a tough fit. 

i wis i could fit some Dyns there, that would be audio heaven i think.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

No real updates to report as life has been pretty busy. Too busy really to even do much more research. But I do have more questions! 

Before that, I do think I'm leaning toward picking up one of these enclosures. It could end up saving me quite a bit of time and/or money depending on whether I built it myself or had a shop build it. 









Wicked C.A.S. VW - Jetta 2005-2010 Magicbox Subwoofer enclosure

1.1 cubic feet with plenty of depth for a standard 12" subwoofer and it isn't too intrusive. It might just be perfect for a C12XL. :worried:

Now, on to the questions... Talk to me about center channels! 

Processing? 

As I see it there are essentially three main options. JBL MS-8, Alpine H800, MiniDSP C-DSP 6x8. Each handles center channel differently, as I understand it (which isn't all that well). Without doing a ton of research, the MS-8 handles the processing of center channel the best, but is the most limiting in terms of ability to custom tune. The Alpine isn't quite as good at processing the center channel, but provides much more tuning flexibility. And the C-DSP can create a simple L+R mono channel through the software matrix, which is least desirable, and the tuning ability is somewhere between the Alpine and JBL. 

Anyone have a really good understanding of how these processors develop the center and why one method is advantageous over another? I wish there was a way I could tag Andy and Gary to get their feedback. 

Drivers? 

If I do decide to experiment with a center, what are your thoughts? This is a single channel, but I have a bit of a wild idea about using a pair of drivers (series or parallel). The driver would be a "widebander" with an Fs below 140 Hz and solid on-axis performance from 200 Hz - 20 kHz. 

Would a pair like this work? Aiming? CTC distance? Comb filtering? Waveguide(s)? And on and on... I was tempted to post some questions in PB's 28 Weeks Later thread, but I go cross-eyed as it is reading in there. Better to go with a single driver? Widebander, coax, point source, midrange + tweeter?

Outside of the center channel question, I am still thinking 3-way in the stock locations.


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

rton20s said:


> Anyone have a really good understanding of how these processors develop the center and why one method is advantageous over another? I wish there was a way I could tag Andy and Gary to get their feedback.


I have heard the Logic7 center channel steering that the MS8 uses is more optimized for a car environment, though I'm not really sure what that means. The Dolby ProLogic II that the Alpine uses is fairly widespread and does a good job too. The simple L+R matrix that the MiniDSP is capable of is certainly not the best you can get, and will result in a narrow soundstage from what I understand of it.

Between the MS8 and the Alpine, the ability to fine tune yourself is likely more significant than the small difference in processing ... in my limited opinion.



rton20s said:


> Drivers?
> 
> If I do decide to experiment with a center, what are your thoughts? This is a single channel, but I have a bit of a wild idea about using a pair of drivers (series or parallel). The driver would be a "widebander" with an Fs below 140 Hz and solid on-axis performance from 200 Hz - 20 kHz.
> 
> ...


What problem do you hope to solve by using a pair of identical drivers? If you can't answer that question with a solid answer, then I think it's a bad idea. The install becomes so much more complex too.

I would opt for the midrange/tweet as your left/right to keep your timbre matched across the front stage, and mount them facing directly rearwards to give driver and passenger equal off-axis listening. Then I would try to mount your left/right speakers in a similar fashion.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Jazzi said:


> I have heard the Logic7 center channel steering that the MS8 uses is more optimized for a car environment, though I'm not really sure what that means. The Dolby ProLogic II that the Alpine uses is fairly widespread and does a good job too. The simple L+R matrix that the MiniDSP is capable of is certainly not the best you can get, and will result in a narrow soundstage from what I understand of it.
> 
> Between the MS8 and the Alpine, the ability to fine tune yourself is likely more significant than the small difference in processing ... in my limited opinion.


First, thank you Jazzi, I really appreciate the feedback. If I do attempt a center, I was leaning toward Alpine simply because of the greater flexibility. The center is as much a matter of experimentation for me as anything. I had a feeling that something more complex than a simple L+R might be necessary, but I really don't know. I don't know the intricacies of the matrixing performed by the different Dolbly/DTS surround formats in order to derive a center channel from stereo recordings. Much less whether or not current car audio DSPs might have the ability to replicate this manually without having the licensed formats built in (or switched on). 



Jazzi said:


> What problem do you hope to solve by using a pair of identical drivers? If you can't answer that question with a solid answer, then I think it's a bad idea. The install becomes so much more complex too.
> 
> I would opt for the midrange/tweet as your left/right to keep your timbre matched across the front stage, and mount them facing directly rearwards to give driver and passenger equal off-axis listening. Then I would try to mount your left/right speakers in a similar fashion.


The thought behind the pair of drivers (remember, I am quite ignorant on this subject) is that with a pair of drivers I could achieve more output especially on the bottom end without stressing the drivers as much. The thought also crossed my mind that if the drivers were on-axis with the driver and passenger it may be possible to provide similar listening experience for both people. On-axis, primarily because I know how that the widebanders may perform well up top on-axis, but the further off-axis you get the more that top end goes away. Of course, the drivers at different angles got me thinking about all of the issues I listed in my previous post (comb filtering, wave guides, etc, etc, etc.)

If the top end isn't as critical on the center, I think aiming straight back as you mentioned is an easier to implement option. I was also considering using the same driver as my midrange in the 3-way in the door. I'm sure it could also be an option to run a matching midrange+tweeter in the center, but then I would either require an additional channel of processing/amplification or building a custom passive crossover. As far as the L/R 3-way speakers, those will all be mounted in the factory door location. 

Yes, I do realize how crazy some of this sounds. Especially when the car doesn't have an actual center speaker location. Just a vent that looks like it was designed for just such an application. And I am fairly certain that there are at least a couple or people who will read through this and just want to slap me. (I know who you are.) "K.I.S.S." or "Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD." Sometimes I just get an itch and I have to follow the trail to see where it ends, even if it is just a research exercise. Hopefully you never catch me plunging into the never ending prototyping depths of a Patrick Bateman or the philosophical depths of a cajunner. If I do, I hope one of you guys do slap me.


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

rton20s said:


> The thought behind the pair of drivers (remember, I am quite ignorant on this subject) is that with a pair of drivers I could achieve more output especially on the bottom end without stressing the drivers as much. The thought also crossed my mind that if the drivers were on-axis with the driver and passenger it may be possible to provide similar listening experience for both people. On-axis, primarily because I know how that the widebanders may perform well up top on-axis, but the further off-axis you get the more that top end goes away. Of course, the drivers at different angles got me thinking about all of the issues I listed in my previous post (comb filtering, wave guides, etc, etc, etc.)
> 
> If the top end isn't as critical on the center, I think aiming straight back as you mentioned is an easier to implement option. I was also considering using the same driver as my midrange in the 3-way in the door. I'm sure it could also be an option to run a matching midrange+tweeter in the center, but then I would either require an additional channel of processing/amplification or building a custom passive crossover. As far as the L/R 3-way speakers, those will all be mounted in the factory door location.


If the goal is to get more bottom end *and* more top end out of your center channel, why not use a tweeter and a beefier midrange driver? You'll still end up with two speakers to install, though you can simply line them up along the car's long axis and the installation should be more simple than a pair of larger speakers.

Actually, why not go for small coaxial speaker? The Illusion 3" comes to mind. That would come with a passive crossover so you don't have to worry about additional amplifier channels and processing, plus it should play high and low enough for your needs, and be easy to install. I don't see any more simple option than that.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Jazzi said:


> If the goal is to get more bottom end *and* more top end out of your center channel, why not use a tweeter and a beefier midrange driver? You'll still end up with two speakers to install, though you can simply line them up along the car's long axis and the installation should be more simple than a pair of larger speakers.
> 
> Actually, why not go for small coaxial speaker? The Illusion 3" comes to mind. That would come with a passive crossover so you don't have to worry about additional amplifier channels and processing, plus it should play high and low enough for your needs, and be easy to install. I don't see any more simple option than that.


I don't disagree at all. I did spend some more time looking into running a center channel, and I'm just not sure I'm willing to go through the effort. Without some of the more advanced processing/signal steering built into PLII or Logic 7, running a center just doesn't make sense. I could certainly go for the H800 or MS8 to address that side of things, but I still have to consider the drivers. 

Like you, I think the C3CX would/could be ideal. In fact, I'm sure a C4CX could fit. As much as this car is _not_ about competition, that thought is always lingering at the back of my mind. The wife has already said that she wouldn't campaign the car, but would be willing to take it to some of the closer comps. Because of this, I had in mind the rules in Street which would allow additional tweeters to be installed on the dash. The drivers I had been considering are technically tweeters, and while they can play crazy low for a tweeter, I'm just not sure they would be up to the task of a dedicated center channel and so, not worth the effort. 

So, I've probably convinced myself to get back to K.I.S.S. Or, at least as simple as a 4-way active system with a fairly discreet install is. Thanks again for the feedback!


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

I have an idea...but you're not gonna like it!!!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> I have an idea...but you're not gonna like it!!!


There he is. 

Go ahead. Speak your mind. :worried:


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## BumpinJetta (May 17, 2013)

I have owned the MKv and overhauled the audio portion of the car, several times. Few things i learned.

1: deaden the door cards and buy new door clips when you remove the doors. you can find them cheap from ECSTuning.com. 
2: dont be afraid to cut the rear deck. i cut mine for a 10x8 blowthrough. sounded amazing. used 2 Hertz Mille ML2500's. 
3: go 3 way active if you can. tweets up in the a pillars. plenty of room up there.
4: replace the top vent above the radio with the shelf kit off ECSTuning.com, it will eventually start to rattle. they get brittle from the sunlight beating on it. 
5: drive the f$%!k out of the car. definitely miss mine.
6: post more pictures


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

BumpinJetta said:


> I have owned the MKv and overhauled the audio portion of the car, several times. Few things i learned.
> 
> 1: deaden the door cards and buy new door clips when you remove the doors. you can find them cheap from ECSTuning.com.


Thanks for the tips. I still have quite a bit of Knu Kolossus, MLV, CCF and denim insulation left from my xB build. 



BumpinJetta said:


> 2: dont be afraid to cut the rear deck. i cut mine for a 10x8 blowthrough. sounded amazing. used 2 Hertz Mille ML2500's.


Not happening. This is the wife's ride and I don't think I would want to cut anyway. There is always the ski pass. I'm pretty sure we'll end up with the enclosure I showed above with a single 10 or 12. 



BumpinJetta said:


> 3: go 3 way active if you can. tweets up in the a pillars. plenty of room up there.


3-way in the stock locations is the plan. 



BumpinJetta said:


> 4: replace the top vent above the radio with the shelf kit off ECSTuning.com, it will eventually start to rattle. they get brittle from the sunlight beating on it.


I'll have to take a look at that. Some CCF would probably help. And it might be worth looking to see if someone makes a decent dash mat. 



BumpinJetta said:


> 5: drive the f$%!k out of the car. definitely miss mine.


The wife is a bit of a lead foot. She has been disappointed that people don't seem to mind nearly as much that a VW passed them compared to our little xBs. 



BumpinJetta said:


> 6: post more pictures


Will do, once there is something worth posting.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

As I have had time, I have been looking at driver options, starting with tweeters. There are a couple of 3 way kits that I am keeping in mind, but until I finalize what I'm going to do and have the coin up to do it, I might as well see what is out there in raw driver land. So far my (pretty exhaustive) spreadsheet list consists of 16 tweeters. Next up, I'll start doing some frequency response plot overlays. 

I'm still not certain on how much depth I have for the tweeters (I know you can fit at least 19mm behind the stock sail panel) but my list of options fall into two categories. The first is tweeters that I would try to fit behind the factory sail panel. The second is tweeters that would mount on or through the sail panel, most likely with an integrated grill. A fairly small diameter tweeter would have to be used behind the sail panel. Certainly smaller than 1". Mounted on or in the sail panel, I think the maximum total diameter will be somewhere around 55mm. 

I did some eyeball "measurements" in the car to see where I would be in terms of on/off-axis for the stock tweeter locations. It seems that on the driver's side I'll be about 60 degrees off axis, whereas the passenger side I'll be about 30 degrees off axis. If I do something that isn't behind the factory sail panel, I might see if I can angle them in about 15 degrees on each side to meet in the middle with similar off-axis response on from both. I'll perform some actual measurements in the future.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I finally got around starting the tear down on my wife's xB. I went ahead and posted a couple of items for sale on local FB pages tonight. I've got a bit of interest and I'll be meeting a guy to unload the AVH-P4000DVD tomorrow. 

I was planning to use the money from these sales to go toward the stereo in the GLI. The Alpine CDE-147BT that was pulled out should be going into the GLI shortly. The wife started in with some crazy talk about putting the money into a savings account.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

As mentioned in my post above, I have been going through the exercise of data collection and comparison of a lot of different drivers. Keep in mind, this is more as a learning opportunity for me than anything. Trying to gain a better understanding of how different T/S parameters or design aspects affect how a driver _should_ perform. Looking strictly at raw drivers in this case, since most car audio manufacturers do not provide similar data. I've looked at two different size midbasses (<7" & 8"), three different size midranges (2", 3" & 4") and two different tweeter mounting styles (surface & hidden, both at the sails). 

Here is a sample of just the 8" midbass information. 

The spreadsheet information includes pricing, T/S parameters, construction and dimensional information. It also includes some derived information such as estimated max. output (in my installation), displacement within Xmax, and the power required to reach Xmax with a given high pass (LR4 @ 60 Hz), some of which is calculated and some through WinISD. 









Here are the four 8" midbass drivers modeled in a 1.75 cf sealed enclosure (my estimate for a leaky door) using the same pass band (LR4 60 Hz - 250 Hz). Each driver was given enough power to reach Xmax. (This is where the figures at the bottom of the spreadsheet come from.)









And then there is the overlay of manufacturer supplied frequency response graphs. There is a baseline graph from 10 Hz - 40 kHz and 50 dB - 120 dB. The graphs for each driver were adjusted to match this baseline graph. The first time I did this it was incredibly revealing for me. The selected "window" a manufacturer uses for a response graph makes a HUGE difference in what the curves look like. An overlay like this is the only way to come anywhere close to an apples to apples comparison. Even then, you have to take into account how much smoothing a manufacturer may or may not have applied to the graph. That information is rarely supplied, but some assumptions can be made when you look at the graphs one on top of another. You also have to assume that a manufacturer actually understands how to take proper measurements. We've seen in other threads around here recently what kind of "discussions" can result from a manufacturer doing a poor job of taking measurements. 

Again, these are the 8" midbasses. The gray bars on either side are just a rough indication of the extremity of the pass band. I also can't stress enough how important it is to look at the off axis measurements of the graphs, especially when you will be listening to the drivers off axis. 









And just for fun, this is what 50+ drivers (midbass, midrange, tweeters) look like in a single overlay.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

And while they would put a serious hurt on my budget, I just had to throw the arguable king of 8" car audio midbasses, the ZR800-CR, into the mix to see how they compare. Way more potential for output, but they require power to do so. Given all of the positive feedback that I have heard on the Z800-CR and ErinH's objective testing, I think if budget wasn't an issue, the ZR800-CR would be all but a foregone conclusion. 

The spreadsheet...









The frequency response overlay...









Also worth noting, the lower you high pass, the more the ZR800 appears to shine over the other options. I would almost be tempted to try a 3-way setup in the doors off of my DEH-80PRS with no sub. Just to see how it could work out. My wife doesn't care for the 80PRS though, and we'll ultimately want to go double DIN.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I decided Saturday to be a good husband and get the Rosen pile of garbage pulled out of my wife's car and drop in the Alpine CDE-147BT. Or at least, that was my hope. I had no idea how the Rosen connected with the factory harness, or what products might have been used. Once I dug in, I learned that I just wasn't going to get the head unit in that day. 

I ended up practicing some of my lacking soldering skills instead, repairing the board on our garage door opener which had been out of commission for weeks. So, even though she is still stuck with the Rosen, at least she can park the car in the garage again. 

What I have learned so far is that there is a vast difference in how VW puts the Jetta together and how Toyota puts together the xB. I've known from the start just how simple everything was to work on in the xB, but I'd only read about working in VWs before Saturday. Way more clips on the VW side of things, which is a blessing and a curse. The dash seems much more solid in this car than in mine, but it did prove to be a bit of a pain. More on that later. 

After watching a couple of short YouTube videos to see where all of the fasteners and clips were, I went at it. It was a pretty straight forward procedure, but I did try to exercise caution through the entire process to prevent damage. One of the upper vent panels had some metal retainer clips that popped off when I removed it, but it was easily located and put back into the correct position. 

Upon removal of the Rosen this is what I was left with. On the left side of the opening was what appeared to be the OE quadlock with the Rosen harness pinned into the side that would have connected to the OE head unit. 

OE Harness Side:









Rosen Harness Side:









On the right side were the two OE antenna wires as well as some sort of adapter box and cables for an iPod and GPS for the Rosen. 









Not having traditional adapter harnesses made me throw my plan for the day of cutting and splicing harness our the window. And I don't have any of the ridiculously expensive electrical terminal pin removal tools to try and repin the OE harness. Nor do I have the terminal pins on hand that I would have needed. 

Rather than spending the money for the tools just to remove the pinned harness, I'll probably try to modify some hair pins to work as I've seen described on other sites like VW Vortex. *If anyone has any advice on this front, I'm all ears. *

I plan to call Crutchfield this week to order the needed adapter harness, antenna harness and steerwheel control harness for the car. I purchased the CDE-147BT from them, and I'm hoping they'll give me a decent price for everything since I am moving a head unit I purchased from them to a new car. *Any brands/part numbers to steer clear of on this front (Metra(Axxess)/PAC)?*

Knowing that I wouldn't be completing the job that day, I decided to put everything back in place for my wife to suffer through the Rosen torture for a while longer. I was almost done putting the very last vent grill on top of the dash when I realized it wasn't sitting down flush like it should be on one side. I began removing those upper panels and I heard it. Two clearly spring loaded pops. Both of those two little metal retainer clips were gone, nowhere to be seen. I completely disassembled everything again and found on clip wedged near the side of the radio opening. I found the second when I was pulling out the the driver's side lower panel for the center console. 

Not wanting to deal with the problem again, I put a couple dabs of super glue on each metal retainer clip to try and keep them in place since I knew I would be digging back into the dash very shortly. These are the troublesome little pieces here...









Before moving on to the garage door, I decided to install the radio into the American International dash kit. Not bad looking, but I haven't seen it in the car yet. Supposed to be one of the nicer options for this model. Quality_sound apparently has a Connects2 dash kit which are supposed to be the best available that I might pick up.


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## Skinnarbox (Sep 26, 2015)

Great stuff, I am working on a build in a mk6 gti thats going to get posted here soonly.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I wasn't going to post this, but I just couldn't help it. So my wife sends me a message this morning with a picture of the Rosen head unit from her drive in to work. 










I think it knows what is coming.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I decided to go ahead and model some subs just to see how they compare. All of these were modeled in the same 1.1 cf Wicked CAS sealed enclosure, adjusted for specific driver displacement. These are all 12" drivers and they range from under $100 all the way up to $1000. Qtc ranges from 0.604 to 1.061. Power required to reach Xmax for the specific driver ranges from 575W to 1350W. 

I know there is a lot more to a driver than how it models, but does anyone have any thoughts or feedback just looking at the plots?









I also traded the Sundown SA-2.75FRs for these little guys. I don't see these ever ending up in the car, but you never know. 









And to close out the post, I have been reconsidering running a center channel again. I spend way more time in the passenger seat of this car than I do the driver's seat. I know I could always program a preset that is tuned for the passenger seat, but it would be nice to have it good in both seats. Having a chance to hear Andy's Audiofrog demo car really got that idea running through my head again.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I finally got all of the harness pieces together to get the head unit in the car. (Thank you cobb2819!) Last night I got everything soldered up and zip tied on the harness. Some TESA tape would have been nice, but I didn't have any on hand. Maybe I'll order some before I get this into the car. Hopefully soon. 

Stock class here she comes!


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## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

rton20s said:


> Stock class here she comes!


Just in time for state!!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

DRTHJTA said:


> Just in time for state!!


There should be enough events between now and then that we could get her car qualified. :laugh: Assuming the car won't get at least third in Monterey to qualify there.


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## mcnaugcl (Apr 23, 2013)

rton20s said:


> Some TESA tape would have been nice, but I didn't have any on hand. Maybe I'll order some before I get this into the car.


I have a roll of 3/4" Tesa tape you can have. Text me when you're in Fresno if you want it.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

mcnaugcl said:


> I have a roll of 3/4" Tesa tape you can have. Text me when you're in Fresno if you want it.


Thanks. I appreciate the offer. 

I already ordered a roll off of Amazon and it should be here today. I wasn't planning to try to get the head unit in until this weekend.


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## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

rton20s said:


>


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Kazuhiro said:


>


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

rton20s said:


>


Nope, he dropped a .gif.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> Nope, he dropped a .gif.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

rton20s said:


>


A picture of Bender isn't a widespread cultural idea, it's a pic of Bender...just saying...carry on.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Out with the old...









In with the new...


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Looks good. Tuned up yet?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

papasin said:


> Looks good. Tuned up yet?


Nope. I got it done while the boys were napping. Right when I was getting it buttoned up, my one year old decided his nap time was over. The extent of my tuning consists of setting it on a default EQ and some basic high pass crossovers. I'm hoping to have some time tomorrow. We drove the car tonight and it is still hot in the 1-2 kHz range.


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## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

build looks good! can't wait to get mine started. im having issues with the HU. im thinking its the wiring harness and module. the HU shut down after a day and half of it being installed. i took the HU out and tried a different wiring suggested by the shop. reinstalled th HU and again shut down after a day. i had the shop order me a new Harness (PAC RP4-VW11) in hopes that a new one will fix the issue. if not do you guys have any idea as to what may be causing the HU to shut down?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

I am driving a 2006 Jetta TDI and was gathering up equipment to buy a 2016 TDI Passat before DieselGate happened. So I am in a holding pattern waiting on someone to sell me a diesel car with a bunch of equipment begging me to install it somewhere.

I am also wanting to follow Andy's pattern on my install. Center channel, front speakers, rear door speakers and rear deck fill speakers. JBL MS-8 as my processor.

So if I couldn't easily install a 4" or bigger center channel in the top of the dash, I bought an Alpine SBS-05DC as my back up plan.

Alpine SBS-05DC 1 Din Center Channel Speaker at Crutchfield.ca

I am also going to try to shoehorn four BNIB old school Coustic BassPumps on the rear deck to save some trunk room. Or three on rear deck and three on the back of the rear seats.

Not my picture just to give you an idea Coustic Basspump Dr 330 | basspump, coustic, dr330 | hifi-forum.de Bildergalerie

If the BassPumps don't work, as a backup plan I also bought two AudioFrog GB10D2. Btw, the AudioFrogs look to be some very high quality subs, I can't wait to hear them! The Frogs are either going in my new car or my old truck.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

vwjmkv said:


> build looks good! can't wait to get mine started. im having issues with the HU. im thinking its the wiring harness and module. the HU shut down after a day and half of it being installed. i took the HU out and tried a different wiring suggested by the shop. reinstalled th HU and again shut down after a day. i had the shop order me a new Harness (PAC RP4-VW11) in hopes that a new one will fix the issue. if not do you guys have any idea as to what may be causing the HU to shut down?


I wish I could help you out, but I really have no idea. I do know that everyone I asked about harnesses and dash kits, etc. for the VW suggested using products from Connects2 out of the UK. I'm not sure if it would fix your issue, but it could be worth a shot. The Connects2 kit in my wife's car hasn't had any issues. You can order them from overseas, and I think Enfig Car Stereo here in the US carries them as well. Perhaps Cobb might have some idea. Knowing him though, he'll probably just tell you to order a Connects2. 



KillerBox said:


> I am driving a 2006 Jetta TDI and was gathering up equipment to buy a 2016 TDI Passat before DieselGate happened. So I am in a holding pattern waiting on someone to sell me a diesel car with a bunch of equipment begging me to install it somewhere.
> 
> I am also wanting to follow Andy's pattern on my install. Center channel, front speakers, rear door speakers and rear deck fill speakers. JBL MS-8 as my processor.
> 
> ...


We were originally looking at new GTIs and GLIs before we bought the MkV. We decided to go used and saved quite a bit of money in doing so. We still like the styling of the new VWs, but we've been quite please with the MkV so far. 

I have gone back and forth on whether or not I would add a center channel speaker up on the dash in place of the factory vent. Primarily because I am usually the passenger in the car. But, because I do plan to keep this car on a fairly tight budget, I think we will forego the center channel speaker and I'll just have a few different presets on the DSP (Driver, Two Seat, Passenger, etc.). The Alpine unit is certainly interesting. I wonder how well it will actually perform as a center. 

Are you planning to run those Coustic Bass pumps under the rear deck IB or on top of it? Can't say that I had ever seen those before. For her car we'll be taking a more traditional approach. I just couldn't convince her to go IB with the pair of W15 GTI MkIIs that I had. Instead, it will probably be a single 12 on the left side of the trunk. Most likely a Wicked CAS Magic Box.

And as long as I am responding on this thread, I should probably provide and update. After a little time tuning on the CDE-147BT powering only the OE drivers we took the car to the MECA comp in Marina (Monterey) back in August. We entered the car in the SQL Stock class. The car scored a 67.5 landing in second place. Given the limitations of the equipment/install and the short time tuning I was quite pleased with the results. One thing I discovered with the Alpine HU is that you can actually program presets for all of your audio settings (Crossovers, EQ, Time Alignment, etc.) similar to a DSP. That allowed me to do a couple of different tunes to choose from depending on if I want single seat or two seat. 

My wife accepting her trophy at Marina Auto Stereo (Richard and Linda in the background)...









In terms of the plans moving forward, I am still not dead set. I had been looking at a lot of options, and was actually leaning pretty heavily toward the Gladen One 200 Golf 5 kit. However, with some pretty significant changes coming on my own build, it looks like I may have some pretty nice "hand me downs" for the GLI that won't cost me anything. Namely the Illusion C6 midbass (I do wish it was an 8") and Illusion C3 midrange. Still undecided are the selections of the subwoofer, amps and DSP. I don't plan on running rear fill and as I mentioned, adding a center is probably out. So, it will likely end up being a three way plus subwoofer system. Amplifiers and DSP will likely be mounted under the rear deck.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

And just like that, she is open to the idea of infinite baffle. After I have sold a pair of W15GTi MkIIs, of course. I suppose I owe a thank you to the CA GTG & comp crew for being a consistent "bad influence." A certain Domani owner, in particular.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)




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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

rton20s said:


> And just like that, she is open to the idea of infinite baffle. After I have sold a pair of W15GTi MkIIs, of course. I suppose I owe a thank you to the CA GTG & comp crew for being a consistent "bad influence." A certain Domani owner, in particular.


aren't a pair of w15gtis ideal for infinite baffle?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Consider this build thread, if you can call it that, closed. After some very poor treatment by VWoA and our nearest dealership with an ABS recall issue, my wife refuses to keep the car and has sworn off ever owning another VW or Audi product. 

She still loves the car and had planned to move into an Audi next. However, she will not own a car or support a brand (even an older used model) of a company that treats their owners with such little regard. 

Time to start prepping the car to sell and shopping for whatever is next. I'll be on the look out for an OE head unit to drop into the dash, as well as taking care of a couple of maintenance issues I'd been putting off.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Their dealers suck. From an installer's standpoint, they are the worst when it comes to servicing a car with aftermarket equipment on it. And that's saying something.

Jay


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

rton20s said:


> Consider this build thread, if you can call it that, closed. After some very poor treatment by VWoA and our nearest dealership with an ABS recall issue, my wife refuses to keep the car and has sworn off ever owning another VW or Audi product.
> 
> She still loves the car and had planned to move into an Audi next. However, she will not own a car or support a brand (even an older used model) of a company that treats their owners with such little regard.
> 
> Time to start prepping the car to sell and shopping for whatever is next. I'll be on the look out for an OE head unit to drop into the dash, as well as taking care of a couple of maintenance issues I'd been putting off.


Damn! Pretty much the same reason I just rid of my Jetta. My wife put her foot down too


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

rton20s said:


> Consider this build thread, if you can call it that, closed. After some very poor treatment by VWoA and our nearest dealership with an ABS recall issue, my wife refuses to keep the car and has sworn off ever owning another VW or Audi product.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Take it to a different dealers. The dealership is NOT VWOA. Vowing to not own a brand because of how the dealership treated you in like vowing to not buy Nikes because Foot Locker treated you poorly. It's a pretty ridiculous and emotional decision to come to. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

That said, is it a manual? The pics take forever to load here and I may be interested in it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> That said, is it a manual? The pics take forever to load here and I may be interested in it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's a DSG.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

cobb2819 said:


> It's a DSG.








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

quality_sound said:


>


DSG is more fun!!!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

JayinMI said:


> Their dealers suck. From an installer's standpoint, they are the worst when it comes to servicing a car with aftermarket equipment on it. And that's saying something.
> 
> Jay


I've let my wife handle this entirely, and despite the outcome I think she has handled the issue well. I will say, we did not have any issue having the car at the dealership for this recall issue even though it has an APR tune and intake.



I800C0LLECT said:


> Damn! Pretty much the same reason I just rid of my Jetta. My wife put her foot down too


My wife actually still loves the car. She doesn't want to get rid of it due to dissatisfaction with the car, but with the company (VWoA) and the nearest dealership.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> Take it to a different dealers. The dealership is NOT VWOA. Vowing to not own a brand because of how the dealership treated you in like vowing to not buy Nikes because Foot Locker treated you poorly. It's a pretty ridiculous and emotional decision to come to.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So the long and (not so) short of the issue is that we received a letter from VWoA that we needed to bring the car in to address a recall issue with the ABS system. They needed to flash the ABS module with new firmware. (Being a VW guy, you may be familiar.) 

Our closest dealer is Clovis VW which is 50 miles away. Their service department is open Saturday, but they would not schedule service for Saturday for the recall work as the firmware has been known to brick the entire ABS module, requiring replacement. (This should have been hint number one.) So, we scheduled service for a Friday and my wife took the car in. 

Surprise, surprise... the firmware update bricked the ABS module. A part they do not stock and CAN NOT ORDER until they have a failure for a specific VIN. That part would not be in until Monday. The dealership also only had two loaner vehicles, both of which were already out on loan. (We were told by VWoA that it is policy for all dealerships to have 6-8 loaner vehicles.) When she asked the service department what she was supposed to do to get home without her car and no loaner they had no answer. She called the other near by dealer (the largest dealer network in Fresno) and was told they carried ZERO loaner vehicles. When pressed the dealership offered their rate on a rental car which would net a whopping $6 in savings over three days. 

My wife rented the car herself and sent a request for reimbursement through the proper channels (according to the paperwork she received) and was denied. She called VWoA after receiving the denial and was told that there was nothing they could do as they were following policy. She reached out to the dealership service department and their response was that there was nothing that they could do as they followed policy. The dealership did offer a $100 credit toward a future service, which I do appreciate, but service at a dealership 50 miles isn't very convenient when we have a very capable VW specialist right in town. 

Finally, my wife reached out to VWoA one last time to try and get it resolved. The customer service rep kept repeating the same line about following policy. She asked the CSR twice what VWoA and their dealership would have done if we weren't in a position to pay for our own rental and she was left stranded 50 miles from her family. Both times she was met with dead air. They had no response. 

That was the proverbial straw that broke the camels back for her. We understand that this is an older car that Clovis VW had nothing to gain by aiding us in our situation. We understand that as the third owners, we shouldn't expect ANYTHING from VW in terms of performance and reliability of the car. However, we also understand that it wasn't us, the current vehicle owners, that created a LIFE SAFETY issue with one of the parts of the car. And it wasn't us that required the work be done only through their dealer network and excluded regular service days that could have eased the burden. And it wasn't us that put policies in place that prevented additional KNOWN problems from being preemptively addressed. And it wasn't us who selectively chose which of VWoA's policies both they and their dealerships would follow. 

Lastly, my wife still loves the car and does not want to sell it because she is dissatisfied with the vehicle. It is strictly because she is beyond dissatisfied with how VW and their dealership handled the situation that they created. You'd think after Dieselgate, they would be more apt to take care of current vehicle owners.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> That said, is it a manual? The pics take forever to load here and I may be interested in it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Like Jacob said. We looked for manuals as well, but this was the best deal at the time and she has enjoyed the DSG.



cobb2819 said:


> It's a DSG.


Yep.



quality_sound said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know. My boring little box on wheels is a manual. My preference.



cobb2819 said:


> DSG is more fun!!!


She has been happy with it. I know a lot of people have had issues, but hers has performed flawlessly. Much better than most autos I've driven.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

cobb2819 said:


> DSG is more fun!!!


Having owned one previously, I will disagree. Also, this would be fo rmy daughter and her first car will be a manual.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

rton20s said:


> So the long and (not so) short of the issue is that we received a letter from VWoA that we needed to bring the car in to address a recall issue with the ABS system. They needed to flash the ABS module with new firmware. (Being a VW guy, you may be familiar.)
> 
> Our closest dealer is Clovis VW which is 50 miles away. Their service department is open Saturday, but they would not schedule service for Saturday for the recall work as the firmware has been known to brick the entire ABS module, requiring replacement. (This should have been hint number one.) So, we scheduled service for a Friday and my wife took the car in.
> 
> ...



First, dieslegate was a snow job by the EPA. Literally EVER manufacturer of diesel passengers IN THE WORLD not only did the same thing, but polluted even more. Chevy is under investigation for it right now. 

Second, while I feel for your situation, it is a single instance. VWOA can not force a dealership to do anything. They can pressure them and make phone calls, but at the end of the day, their only power is to pull their license. I understand it was inconvenient, but at least you don't live in Clovis, NM, like I do. A state where dealerships aren't even allowed o provide loaner vehicles. 

Third, this is not indicative of a problem with VW specifically, but dealerships in general. I can tell you flat out that the dealership absolutely could have had the ABS module in stock. It is not tied to a specific VIN and can be ordered and stocked at any time. They don't because it's a very low-failure part and is very expensive. Dealerships don't want to maintain that kind of overhead for parts they won't sell often. It's good business. Bad customer service, but good business.

If you're expecting perfect service form every dealership, all the time, you're going to be disappointed a lot, no matter the brand. They all have stories like this. Literally all of them.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

rton20s said:


> Like Jacob said. We looked for manuals as well, but this was the best deal at the time and she has enjoyed the DSG.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because it's not a true auto. There is no torque converter. A better description is "automated manual." I don't like it for a few reasons. First, low speed drivability blows goats. In all of them whether they be VW, BMW, Ferrari, whoever. They all lurch and hunt at low speeds, like stop and go traffic. Also, and this isn't a problem for most people, but on a track you lose a lot of the sensation of speed, the tactile feedback. On the Ring I constantly went into corners too hot. I know this is more my failing than they cars but I always had better lap times in a manual. Lastly, the maintenance on them is outrageous and can only be done with a VW-specific tool and dealer software. Luckily, I know where to get that tool and I have software that will allow me to service the DSG. 

I do like the transmission, however. I just won't own one, given the option.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> Second, while I feel for your situation, it is a single instance. VWOA can not force a dealership to do anything. They can pressure them and make phone calls, but at the end of the day, their only power is to pull their license. I understand it was inconvenient, but at least you don't live in Clovis, NM, like I do. *A state where dealerships aren't even allowed o provide loaner vehicles.*


Except there are a ton of dealerships that do provide loaner vehicles in NM...so...there is that. I used to work with a lot of dealerships in ABQ and Santa Fe, and even had access to many of the dealership's loaner fleets.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> Having owned one previously, I will disagree. Also, this would be fo rmy daughter and her first car will be a manual.


I can appreciate that. My wife's first car had a manual transmission. It wasn't until I picked up a used Prelude Type SH that I got into my first manual equipped car. 



quality_sound said:


> First, dieslegate was a snow job by the EPA. Literally EVER manufacturer of diesel passengers IN THE WORLD not only did the same thing, but polluted even more. Chevy is under investigation for it right now.
> 
> Second, while I feel for your situation, it is a single instance. VWOA can not force a dealership to do anything. They can pressure them and make phone calls, but at the end of the day, their only power is to pull their license. I understand it was inconvenient, but at least you don't live in Clovis, NM, like I do. A state where dealerships aren't even allowed o provide loaner vehicles.
> 
> ...


First, I understand the Dieselgate issue. And I know that the net that is being cast will ultimately catch a whole lot more than VW. But, I also know you are intelligent enough to understand that for John Q. Public, perception is reality. We test drove a car this weekend at Toyota of Clovis. In speaking with the salesman, you could sense his relief when we told him we were not planning to trade in the GLI, but sell it ourselves. He said that they can't move any of the VWs (even those with gas engines) they currently have on their lot and aren't wanting any more to have to unload. All because the public that they deal with (of course it will be different at a VW dealer) is very gun shy about VW right now. Even after they explain that the issue is only on vehicles equipped with diesel engines. 

Second, I also understand that this is a single instance, but it is OUR single instance. In our case, it is the only one that matters. Either the dealer, or VWoA could have stepped up to make the situation right. WE did absolutely nothing to put ourselves into the situation. Even a small portion of what Clovis VW has sitting in petty cash could have resolved the whole thing. It isn't the money that we take issue with, it is the principal.

Third, the biggest problem I see is both VWoA and Clovis VW are hanging their hat on "policy." We don't do recall work on Saturdays, because of policy. We couldn't stock the part, because of policy. It is our policy that we do not provide any of the used car inventory as a loaner. It is not our policy to provide rental vehicles who are in for service. We can't reimburse you for your rental car expenses, because of policy. Yet, when we are told it is VWoA policy that all dealers maintain a fleet of 6-8 loaner vehicles, policy doesn't mean squat. If they were true to their mantra of always following policy, there would be no issue. It is fine that this selective following of policy is good for business, but it is bad for their reputation with us and everyone that we know. 

And I most certainly do not expect perfect service from any dealer, all of the time. I've had my share of great service and service I have had to fight for with the vehicles I have owned. In some cases with the same dealer and same vehicle. My issue, really more my wife's, is that every opportunity was provided to Clovis VW to do the right thing before, during and after the service. When that failed, and she attempted to reach out to VWoA, her experience there was more of the same. 

And to make matters worse, we have discovered that since the service, the auto-leveling function of the headlights has stopped working. I don't know for sure that this was an issue caused by the dealership, and even if I did, I have zero confidence that the Clovis VW would do anything to make it right. At this point, I will take the car in to our local VW specialist in hopes that he can track down the issue. 



quality_sound said:


> Because it's not a true auto. There is no torque converter. A better description is "automated manual." I don't like it for a few reasons. First, low speed drivability blows goats. In all of them whether they be VW, BMW, Ferrari, whoever. They all lurch and hunt at low speeds, like stop and go traffic. Also, and this isn't a problem for most people, but on a track you lose a lot of the sensation of speed, the tactile feedback. On the Ring I constantly went into corners too hot. I know this is more my failing than they cars but I always had better lap times in a manual. Lastly, the maintenance on them is outrageous and can only be done with a VW-specific tool and dealer software. Luckily, I know where to get that tool and I have software that will allow me to service the DSG.
> 
> I do like the transmission, however. I just won't own one, given the option.


#humblebrag 

So far we like the DSG, and our local VW specialist will be able to handle the service when the time comes. IF we still have the car. We have begun shopping for a replacement and once one is found, the GLI will go.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Sorry to hear about the issue with the dealer.

Do what it takes to make your wife happy, family is more important.


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## barkeater (Nov 8, 2017)

rton20s said:


> I can appreciate that. My wife's first car had


I apologize for the response to a thread that has gone dark for a few months, but I just wanted to say sorry to hear of your experience. 

I had been following this build as I also own a VW Jetta (albeit a 2010 S auto). 

I also pretty frequent lurker over at VWVortex forum and was surprised when I read about what you and your wife went through as I was not aware of the ABS module recall. Seems that many VW owners have also experienced similar treatment as you have which is pretty crappy. I know you have likely already moved on from the GLI but there is much information as to how to arm oneself when approaching VW . 

Fortunately I've not received the letter nor have I had any of the symptoms of the issue but I do have the model year for which I could have been affected.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

barkeater said:


> I apologize for the response to a thread that has gone dark for a few months, but I just wanted to say sorry to hear of your experience.
> 
> I had been following this build as I also own a VW Jetta (albeit a 2010 S auto).
> 
> ...


We actually still have the car, because we have a new check engine light. This time, it is for the intake manifold issue. Pretty common, as I understand it. Enough so that our warranty is extended to 2019 and 119k miles or something like that. We have talked to the dealership and plan to take it in. 

Unfortunately because her car has an APR tune, the service manager can not guarantee VWoA will honor the extended warranty. We have already had our local VW specialist scan the car and confirm the code, but the local dealership has to do the same to put in the warranty request. If VW denies the request because of the tune, the dealership (same one) is going to charge us $175, just for the scan. If it is denied, we'll have our local specialist perform the repair. 

At this point, we're just trying to determine what works best for our schedule, and trying to pre-plan with the dealership to make sure that they will have a loaner car available this time if the warranty work is approved. Once everything is resolved, we'll be selling the car.


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## barkeater (Nov 8, 2017)

well, sounds like you have got a plan. Good luck.

FWIW, I just had my TB replaced under warranty due to a cel. Again, we have different trims (and years) but both are mkv's and within a year model wise. However, I have all stock engine so I understand that that can play into it as well. Good luck with that as well.


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

my fuel pump, intake manifold, and fuel injectors are warrantied to 100k as well (i found out this week)


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