# Help! New sub sounds awful / "hollow"



## teoulennon (Dec 5, 2012)

Well I got a box built for my sundown SA-10 today.
I've always preferred the sound of sealed boxes so I got them to build one at the recommended .50ft^3. I've got it running off of a massive audio N3 around 600rms.
The crossover for the sub is set at 80hz and the crossover for the speakers are set at 100hz.

The sub sounds awful - "hollow" and boomy, like it's missing something - not tight and responsive. This is especially the case with rock music.
Before this I had a 12" kicker shallow mount sub that came in a sealed box straight from Kicker and I can honestly say that it sounded MUCH better!
Kicker 10TCVT122 Compact Single 12" 2 ohm Comp VT Loaded

Any ideas on what I can do to make it sound better?
Surely this isn't the way this sub is supposed to sound!


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## ceri23 (Aug 10, 2012)

Make sure your crossovers are set correctly. You might be high passing it at 80 instead of low passing, or it might be set lower than you intend. Any time a sub sounds goofy I always start by looking at the crossovers first. Is it being double crossed (once on the deck and again on the amp)? If it's intentionally being double crossed, then that's okay (in some situations), but if it's not intentional, that would be your problem. After that, check the box for leaks and double check your connections. You can also try wiring it out of phase (switch positive and negative) to see if that improves it.


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

I think your sub just doesnt sound good in a sealed enclosure. Either that or the recommended box is just way too small.

Recommended Box Specs (Ported): 1.0ft^3 (Tune to 35Hz, *yields F3 of 29Hz*) 
Recommended Box Specs (Sealed): 0.5ft^3 (*Yields F3 of 51Hz*)


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## teoulennon (Dec 5, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestions ceri, I'm a complete novice when it comes to adjusting things such as crossovers but I do know what a properly tuned subwoofer sounds like.
I'm going to take the car back to the shop and tell them what's going on.

It sounds as if the notes being played by the sub are playing higher than they should be. (not to be confused with the sub playing notes the speakers should be playing)


Rich - thanks, I hope that's not the case. Jacob (owner of sundown) has said that he thinks they sound fine in sealed enclosures.

Would poly-fill be a possible solution?


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

I would use half a pound of poly fil for sure to see it if brings the tuning down. If that does in fact lower the tuning and make it sound better I would jump up to a 1 cu ft box.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

F3 of 51hz is SPL tuning, it will sound very boomy and you will not hear much low bass (< 40Hz). If you can get the specs for your old sub you can model that and tune the new one the same or lower/higher whatever you rather.

Another way to figure it out is play tones on it at the same volume, then note where it gets loud or quiet.


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## teoulennon (Dec 5, 2012)

Wow, so you're saying it's the enclosure and the only thing I can do is build a new box that yields a different F3 value?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Yup. Bass is much more about the enclosure than the sub. Particularly with vented subs.


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## teoulennon (Dec 5, 2012)

The output of it at different frequencies seems to be all over the place.
When I listen to a rock song like Evans Blue - In A Red Dress and Alone all I get is boomy, muffled bass, with no punch or tightness; Eddie Money - Take Me Home Tonight has hardly any output at all; dubstep, trance, and house music sounds boomy and with there being such a wide variation of frequencies at times, some of them will be twice as loud as the others (we're not talking crazy high or low frequencies here)
This is frustrating to say the least - I thought for sure that I was going to avoid boomy unresponsive bass by going with a sealed enclosure.


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## teoulennon (Dec 5, 2012)

I can handle having a different box built, but I don't know what dimensions this SQ box you guys are speaking of needs to be to make it sound better - it was built to have the recommended .50ft^3.
I'm furthermore limited to a space of about 30"w x 12"h x 8"d

Cajunner, by saying that it's a "bass pump" are you saying that it's just in the nature of the sub to sound boomy and loud?

I feel like I have a fartbox behind my head, not something that will thump me in my chest with tight bass


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## teoulennon (Dec 5, 2012)

Here are the t/s parameters for the kicker sub:
Revc= 2.200 Ohm
Fo= 38.928 Hz
Sd= 50.671m M≤
Krm= 5.940m Ohm
Erm= 0.822
Kxm= 44.854m H
Exm= 0.655
Vas= 41.470 Ltr
Cms= 113.743u M/N
Mmd= 140.401m Kg
Mms= 146.960 g
BL= 10.192 T∑M
Qms= 8.305
Qes= 0.761
Qts= 0.697
No= 0.311 %
SPLo= 86.942 dB

How I take those numbers and tune a new box to sound more like the factory enclosure from kicker is beyond me!:uhoh:


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

Based on the mid level qts and the absolutely tiny Vas of the SA-10 I'd say a tiny sealed box won't give you the deep bass you want. Too many factors damping out the lower frequencies at that point.

It definitely has an overbuilt motor with a sky high BL. But it also has a very stiff suspension so that makes for a high fs. But it has a rather high Le which would limit midbass response. This is kinda a finicky sub to try to stuff into a sealed box and my own instincts tell me if you wanted sealed and deeper bass extension you'd have to go with a bigger sealed box .75-1.0 cubic foot.

I'm not sure why Sundown is so adamant about not putting it in a bigger box, perhaps to cover their butts for people who put it in too big a box and simultaneously try to feed it it's max rated power. It certainly has the Xmax to push decently deep bass and a motor well capable of keeping the cone in control.

But one thing you might consider, build the 1.0 cubic foot box and put a round port in it. If you don't like it you can always stuff the port with a foam plug. The sub should work sealed in 1.0 cubic feet just fine as long as you're not trying to push its max rated power into it.


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

sqshoestring said:


> F3 of 51hz is SPL tuning, it will sound very boomy and you will not hear much low bass (< 40Hz). If you can get the specs for your old sub you can model that and tune the new one the same or lower/higher whatever you rather.
> 
> Another way to figure it out is play tones on it at the same volume, then note where it gets loud or quiet.


Huh? F3 ≠ Fb. That was a sealed enclosure.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

With the Qts at .697 an enclosure right at its Vas should be pretty good. That's 1.46cf. It's a good starting point.


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## teoulennon (Dec 5, 2012)

Ringing bass is exactly how I would describe what I'm getting - on certain bass notes it sounds hollow and the notes sound "higher" than they should be playing.
I know a sub won't give me the thump of woofer bass that you speak of, but I'm talking about the general tight thump a sealed sub should be able to produce.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

teoulennon said:


> Ringing bass is exactly how I would describe what I'm getting - on certain bass notes it sounds hollow and the notes sound "higher" than they should be playing.
> *I know a sub won't give me the thump of woofer bass that you speak of*, but I'm talking about the general tight thump a sealed sub should be able to produce.


Yes it will.


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## teoulennon (Dec 5, 2012)

Well I discovered part of the problem.

The box was originally turned so that the sub was facing the back of the car (porsche 911).
When I turned it around to face the front it sounded MUCH better but the output of most songs wasn't nearly as loud as it had previously been - probably less than it had been with the 400rms shallow mount kicker, which I also had facing the front in an F-250.

I'm beginning to think I just chose the wrong sub for the job


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## NucFusion (Nov 28, 2010)

Honestly, that sub probably would sound better in a ported enclosure. You could go with a larger sealed box like others have suggested. You will probably lose a little spl and power handling in the larger enclosure, but better low end and overall sound quality should improve. This is just the wrong sub for a small sq sealed enclosure, imo.


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## teoulennon (Dec 5, 2012)

I guess the next step is to try a ported box.

I'm just worried I won't get tight, punchy bass while also having it sound nice across the board with all different genres of music - I don't like the idea of a box that sounds good with only certain genres.

The recommended specs for a ported box are 1.0-1.25 ft^3 @ 35hz.
How would I go about designing a box that can have tight bass but also sound decent with other genres?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Model it in WinISD and make sure it doesn't have a huge peak.


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## Prophecy (Jan 16, 2013)

With the tight suspension and good motor I think it will still be able to keep up with the punchy bass


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Why has no one suggested trying a lower crossover point. It seems to me that 80hz is too high for what you're looking for. I'd drop to ~65hz and reset your gains.


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## cyberdraven (Oct 28, 2009)

Before you change your box, play with phase. Try reversing the polarity and see what happens. If it comes louder, thats the correct phase. If it still sounds too boomy or bottoming-out, add a wood to the box to make it somewhat smaller. If your lacking on the punch, add some fiberfill or easier, lower the levels of your frontstage to match the sub.

Thanks
paeng


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

We do heavily suggest not going over 0.5 sealed on the SA-10 ; the motor is quite powerful and we've found that customers tend to cause mechanical damage in larger enclosures. I've ran one in this box spec in my own car and found it to be very smooth; so I'd check over your EQ settings as well and make sure there is no "hidden feature" in your HU boosting up the higher frequencies.

95% of customers do ported them and almost everyone is happier that way.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

sundownz said:


> We do heavily suggest not going over 0.5 sealed on the SA-10 ; the motor is quite powerful and we've found that customers tend to cause mechanical damage in larger enclosures. I've ran one in this box spec in my own car and found it to be very smooth; so I'd check over your EQ settings as well and make sure there is no "hidden feature" in your HU boosting up the higher frequencies.
> 
> 95% of customers do ported them and almost everyone is happier that way.


True, make sure there is no bass boost, loudness, MX, or other feature turned on...


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

Im guessing the sub sounds horrible sealed if 95% of the people run them ported.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Why has no one suggested trying a lower crossover point. It seems to me that 80hz is too high for what you're looking for. I'd drop to ~65hz and reset your gains.


I would go even lower if he has the ability to use a shallow LP (12dB) 
My girlfriend's car has a subwoofer in too small of a box and a 40Hz 12dB/oct LP works well in order to tame the giant peak I had  (and the not enough low end I was missing...)

Kelvin


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## teoulennon (Dec 5, 2012)

Thank you for all the suggestions guys, your input is invaluable!
I've gotten it to sound much better now, but there is still more tweaking that can be done I'm sure.

Phase has been correct and there were no hidden "features" on the deck turned on that may have been boosting higher frequencies.

I have the amp boosting it at 6db because if I turn this off I get no output no matter what I do. I'm not sure if this is detrimental or not.
I put some poly-fill in the box, which helped with cone noise and seemed to have improved the low end a bit.
I lowered the crossover point to 63hz which helped tremendously! Unfortunately I don't have the ability to choose a shallow LP, just the hz.
What is the idea behind resetting the gains after doing this?

I have no doubt in my mind that the sa 10 is a fantastic sub, but probably just not the best choice for my application. Jacob is also an absolute standup guy.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

When you change the xo point you've also change the output relationship between the mid and sub. You have to adjust the gains to match the levels at the xo again.


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## GLN305 (Nov 2, 2007)

teoulennon said:


> Well I discovered part of the problem.
> 
> The box was originally turned so that the sub was facing the back of the car (porsche 911).
> When I turned it around to face the front it sounded MUCH better but the output of most songs wasn't nearly as loud as it had previously been - probably less than it had been with the 400rms shallow mount kicker, which I also had facing the front in an F-250.
> ...


That's exactly what happened, wrong sub for sealed. I was messing with an SA-8 and it just didn't cut the mustard sealed. In a ported enclosure it sounded awesome, was really loud and clean. No room for ported in my car at that time, so I sold it. I would recommend either moving to ported or sell it and get something more suited for your application.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

teoulennon said:


> Thank you for all the suggestions guys, your input is invaluable!
> I've gotten it to sound much better now, but there is still more tweaking that can be done I'm sure.
> 
> Phase has been correct and there were no hidden "features" on the deck turned on that may have been boosting higher frequencies.
> ...


What do you mean by "phase is correct"? Even if you have it wired with all the polarity correct, it may sound better with the phase reversed. This is due to the distance between your sub and your midbass drivers and the phase relationship between them. 

Phase is often written off as just wiring polarity, but it actually has much more to do with pathlength differences between the drivers.

Try wiring your sub backwards and see if it helps further with the midbass blending. 

If possible, turn off that 6db boost. Bring the gain up to compensate for the loss... and you should have a much smoother performing sub.


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## teoulennon (Dec 5, 2012)

By phase is correct I mean I tried reversing the phase and have it set so that it sounds better.

Naturally I'd like to have the 6db boost turned off but the output is pathetic when I do.
I'll try turning the boost off and turning the gain up but I'm pretty close to having the gain turned all the way on my 700rms amp.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

teoulennon said:


> By phase is correct I mean I tried reversing the phase and have it set so that it sounds better.
> 
> Naturally I'd like to have the 6db boost turned off but the output is pathetic when I do.
> I'll try turning the boost off and turning the gain up but I'm pretty close to having the gain turned all the way on my 700rms amp.


There is no downside to turning it all the way up if that's what it takes to get good output. Gain is related to input signal from your deck, not related to output capability of the amp.


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