# Tell me more about those Sundown SA 12"s



## BigGeorge (Sep 25, 2010)

As the title states, I was wanting to know about those Sundown SA 12"s. How do they sound? Sql/Spl? Would 500 watts be sufficient? Box? Anybody who is running them should chime in.


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## BigGeorge (Sep 25, 2010)

????


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## kvndoom (Nov 13, 2009)

BigGeorge said:


> ????


Patience dude! You can't assume an SA-12 owner is online at any particular time. 

I've only had mine in the car for 2 or 3 days now and not really a lot of listening time. I will get more time with it this weekend.

Box: 1.0 cube sealed and stuffed. I need space over bass.
Amp: Alpine PDX-M6, 600W

Impressions:

Sound quality, it is VERY accurate. Excellent note separation... I am quite impressed with how it sounds.

Application wise? Honestly (and my opinion might change once I get some time with it) I think this sub isn't ideal for my particular use. 600W realistically is just foreplay. My Phoenix Gold RSDC is rated at 600 watts, and it is a true 600 watt sub. The Sundown, not so. This baby is made foremost for a large ported box. It sounds great the way I have it, but I can tell I need more juice to run it this way and get the same level of output, and that's the total opposite of the route I'm taking (planning to sell the PDX amps and go to a 300/2 + 500/1 setup). If my impressions don't change I'll either keep it for a future home theater sub or sell it. I only bought it on a whim, not out of necessity. I was kinda looking for the SQ of the SSA DCON but with more power handling. This IS what the SA12 offers, but not for the box and power I am limited to.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

sealed filtered at 50 or 60hz its gonna sound decent, but so many better options especially for the price if ur going sealed

but its truly built to be an SPL sub, for a ported box(1.75) and best on around 1000 watts. not built for SQ, just built to be loud and not sound like butt


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## BigGeorge (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks you guys. You're right I was a little anxious. I was afraid my measly 500/600 watts would not be enough. Well then, what would be some better sealed box subs?


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Here are some subwoofers that can be used sealed, can take at least 500WRMS, and have at least pretty good SQ. They are not in any particular order. These are not the only options around, but hopefully they'll help you out.

Exodus Audio Shiva-X2
Stereo Integrity Mag v4 (out of production)
Acoustic Elegance AV12/AV15 (hard to find right now, but they should be back)
Dayton RSS315HO-4 (single 4 ohms, not ideal for some amps)
Dayton RSS315HO-44 (the difference is that it's DVC, can run at 2 or 8 ohms)
Image Dynamics IDQv3 12 (not my favorite, but not bad, a lot of people here like it)
JL Audio 12w6v2 (overpriced though)
DLS Iridium 12i (I personally haven't heard it but it's recommended by many. It's expensive.)
...


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

dayton
image dynamics id/idq
shiva-x2
AE AV


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Honestly OP,

There's not one person's opinion I'd listen to who has posted thus far in this thread. If you're still looking, find a user by the name of treetop and ask his opinion.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Xeon266 said:


> I’ve got one SA12 D2 in a sealed box (1ft^3)
> 
> “It's a boomy one-note sub that sounds like ass”
> - very accurately remarked
> ...



+2... this comes from hands on experience

It really needs a large ported enclosure


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Wow. Not sure what we did different.

Son's friend has one in his car. 1.5 cu.ft internal dimensions sealed 1lb of poly fill. Box was built so he could use it. He couldn't wait untill he gets his second one. So that is why the box is sealed.

JBL BPX500 powering the thing. crossed over ~80 hertz

Fantastic sub. When set up correctly, the natural roll off of the box/sub combo meshes very nicely with the cabin gain of his bonneville. Rock is fantastic. Great on kick drum. Accurate bass guitar. Rap gets deep. No distortion that I could hear. I based my recommendation off Treetop's experience with the 4 he has.

This spring when the boy gets a second sub and new amp it will be going in a ported enclosure.

One note SPL subs? Not hardly.


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## Xeon266 (Mar 8, 2011)

cubdenno said:


> Wow. Not sure what we did different.
> 
> Son's friend has one in his car. 1.5 cu.ft internal dimensions sealed 1lb of poly fill. Box was built so he could use it. He couldn't wait untill he gets his second one. So that is why the box is sealed.
> 
> ...


when I read reviews like this, I decided to buy SA12...

rockford fosgate bd, crossed over ~50 hertz, strong sealed box with 1 cu.ft internal dimensions ("clean")

"Great on kick drum. Accurate bass guitar."
-I tried it and now I do not believe

perhaps this is absurdly
but if you turn off the subwoofer, you will not find a difference

In any case I am very glad that your installation is successful (as someone said - "this comes from hands on experience")


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

cubdenno said:


> No distortion that I could hear.


I'm so glad that your hearing is above the physics at work in an overhung motor. Glad you're happy with your SPL sub. Nobody said anything about one-note except for the trolls who make up garbage because they can't stand a differing opinion from their own.

Liking the SA-12 is perfectly fine, but to come in and say "I don't hear distortion, this sub is awesome" and expecting someone to thus buy something is a little iffy. I know how you're going to respond to that, but a one-word response "overhung" already provides FAR more information than the fact that you - who are you? - like the sub.

I never said it sucked, but it is NOT AN SQ SUB. Why do people need to argue? "BUT I LIKE MINE!" Good for you, and that's not even sarcastic. It is STILL NOT AN SQ SUB.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

dragonrage said:


> I'm so glad that your hearing is above the physics at work in an overhung motor. Glad you're happy with your SPL sub. Nobody said anything about one-note except for the trolls who make up garbage because they can't stand a differing opinion from their own.
> 
> Liking the SA-12 is perfectly fine, but to come in and say "I don't hear distortion, this sub is awesome" and expecting someone to thus buy something is a little iffy. I know how you're going to respond to that, but a one-word response "overhung" already provides FAR more information than the fact that you - who are you? - like the sub.
> 
> I never said it sucked, but it is NOT AN SQ SUB. Why do people need to argue? "BUT I LIKE MINE!" Good for you, and that's not even sarcastic. It is STILL NOT AN SQ SUB.


Am I reading your post wrong or are you saying that all overhung motor subs are high distortion and only good for SPL?

I'm heard 3 different setups running the SA-12 and all 3 of them sounded just fine to me. Is the SA-12 an all out best of the best SQ sub? No. But will it work quite well in an SQ setup if the install and tuning are done competently? You better believe it.

I've seen SQ setups using DD 9515's, DC Audio 15's, low end Infinity subs, etc... All sounded great. It's more about the tuning and implementation of the driver than it is the driver.


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## kvndoom (Nov 13, 2009)

My second post was extreme sarcasm in response to Captain BL Curve up there.  Sorry if anyone actually took me seriously.

Anyway, the guy who bought it from me checked the DC resistance with a multimeter (something I never did when I had it) and was getting a hair over 3 ohms per coil. So I wonder if it was actually a dual-4 instead of a dual 2... so wired in series I had it at 8-ohms. Damn it, I never really got to see what it would do. Oh well, milk under the bridge now.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Boostedrex said:


> Am I reading your post wrong or are you saying that all overhung motor subs are high distortion and only good for SPL?
> 
> I'm heard 3 different setups running the SA-12 and all 3 of them sounded just fine to me. Is the SA-12 an all out best of the best SQ sub? No. But will it work quite well in an SQ setup if the install and tuning are done competently? You better believe it.
> 
> I've seen SQ setups using DD 9515's, DC Audio 15's, low end Infinity subs, etc... All sounded great. It's more about the tuning and implementation of the driver than it is the driver.



You're definitely reading it how you want to read it, and not how the English language dictates it be read.

Installation is very important and most commercial subwoofers can be made to sound decent within their design parameters (Xmax, power handling, etc.) but yes, an overhung subwoofer is always going to be inferior in sound quality.

*I NEVER said that it always sounds bad, and I never said anything about one-note*. But just because you and even I can think they sound okay does NOT mean that something is SQ-oriented. It means it's an SPL driver that sounds okay, not that it's some sort of SQ driver because it's not one-note crap. Is that what we're going to call criteria for SQ subs now? Because there are an a LOT of SQ subs on the market if so.

Show me this sub properly installed and I will show you a Shiva-X2 properly installed. The Shiva-X2 will always win on sound quality. *Always*. Now, compare a SA-12 properly installed to an improperly installed Shiva-X2, and the SA-12 may very well win.


What good does it do to sit there and argue the facts? BL curve matters. Maybe you think it matters very little, or maybe you mistakenly think it doesn't matter for SQ. It does matter. This is not an SQ sub and even Jacob will admit that (possibly in a beat-around-the-bush manner). It is a good subwoofer for what it is, but it's not built for SQ.

This is my last post in this thread, because I know people are going to want to continue arguing based on "But *I* think it sounds good," trying to turn that into some kind of fact that refutes physics. If you like the SA-12 then you made a wise choice for yourself, but don't go and tell everyone else that it's the right choice for them just because you like yours.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Dragonrage, I would suggest being a little more respectful to your fellow forum members. You can argue your point, but when you start to cross the line and be insulting to other members violations can and will be issued.

Lines like these are what I'm talking about. You're a grown man so please conduct yourself as one.
- "You're definitely reading it how you want to read it, and not how the English language dictates it be read."
- "I'm so glad that your hearing is above the physics at work in an overhung motor. Glad you're happy with your SPL sub."

Now to counterpoint your last post. Overhung motors are inferior to designs such as XBL^2. I agree with you there whole heartedly. But because the motor is not as advanced and does not perform as well as the better designs doesn not mean that it's not capable of performing well. It just won't best the more advanced motor designs. I personally run XBL^2 motor'd subs in my setup and swear by them. But I realize that tastes differ from person to person.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ou-think-subs-really-sound-all-different.html

While I understand what Dragonrage is trying to say, he has to remember that his blanket statements are as useless as my saying the SA series are good sounding subs. I get the whole coil configuration. but honestly as long as the kid does not overdrive the sub (good luck getting that to happen!) and is just using the system to listen to music and not make a statement (playing the sub sensibly within it's range of play) the odds of being able to pick the SQ of this sub against another is really unlikely. It's just a fookin sub for gods sake. And since SQ is entirely 100% subjective, I will say it can be used as a SQ sub. But of course this same line of reasoning is why I am not a judge at ice skating comps.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

I think it was Neil who had a thread discussing the merits of the different coil designs. I am looking. Here is one I subscribed to as i am a TC Sounds user and have several of their subs. Granted this is not a Sundown sub. but just wanted the overhung vs underhung thing explained a little more. he touches upon it a bit here.



Neil said:


> *LMT (Linear Motor Technology) or LMS (Linear Motor System)*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

Tc is overhug but they have a motor design to provide better sq while the sundown sub is a standard motor. While the tc subs will sound better than a sundown sub it still is inferrior to underhung, xbl2, etc etc so I have read anyways


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> Tc is overhug but they have a motor design to provide better sq while the sundown sub is a standard motor. While the tc subs will sound better than a sundown sub it still is inferrior to underhung, xbl2, etc etc so I have read anyways


Can you honestly state that you could hear the differences between two motor designs at say 100 db or lower in a car?Especially when we are talking just the subs. I hate to get on a all subs sound the same sort of thing here but come on.

I will agree that finding the best sub for the money should be on the top of everybody's list but come on. Apples to apples comparison. hell I love my sub set up and each enclosure design makes it (GASP) sound a bit different. But I can honestly say that when you are playing at lower volumes (say around reference level listening ~90-95 db) whether it was a TC or a Dayton or a Boston G5,SPG, 8.4,10.4 and 12.4lf pro seriesor an IDQ or Sundown (E8, SA12,) DD9012, DD1510, Kicker L5 and L7, Rockford Fosgate audiophile 12's, MTX blue thunder triple 10 sealed and probably a bunch more, I can say that the sub was last item that one would be able to attribute to SQ. Your enclosure will dictate the SQ way more than a coil design.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Neither sub motor topology is superior or inferior to another. It's the implementation of the motor within an entire package (it's called a sub) that determines this.

For an example of a superior overhung topology, see the w7.

In the end, however, none of this matters, because subs are high distortion drivers period that boom. Pick one and be done with it.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

bassfromspace said:


> Neither sub motor topology is superior or inferior to another. It's the implementation of the motor within an entire package (it's called a sub) that determines this.
> 
> For an example of a superior overhung topology, see the w7.
> 
> In the end, however, none of this matters, because subs are high distortion drivers period that boom. Pick one and be done with it.


Wrong. Comparing implementations of a technology cannot be considered the same as comparing the technology itself. There are laws of physics behind this. If you want to argue that you hear no difference, that's one thing, but overhung IS worse for distortion.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

dragonrage said:


> Wrong. Comparing implementations of a technology cannot be considered the same as comparing the technology itself. There are laws of physics behind this. If you want to argue that you hear no difference, that's one thing, but overhung IS worse for distortion.


So I pose a challenge to you.......

Please find AND post a Klippel of the W7 and any other sub of your choosing, and tell me which is superior.

The ball is in your court.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Aren't you guys out of piss yet....LOL


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

Guess I missed this one 

The SA line was not designed for reference sound quality but they are NOT an SPL driver that is incapable of sounding good. We actually had a Klippel done recently to demonstrate the linear capabilities :

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-specs/106726-sundown-sa-12-klippel-test.html

You really cannot argue with that... as I said, it's not a reference SQ sub but does have a healthy linear x-max of 19mm, a suspension that supports this excursion within linear boundaries, and a low inductive distortion to top it off.

Had we been going for reference SQ we would have went with a technology like XBL or under-hung on the motor and I would have went with a more linear spider. The design goal was a rugged, affordable driver that also sounds good -- I believe we nailed it.


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## Dukenut (Nov 10, 2008)

sundownz said:


> The design goal was a *rugged, affordable driver that also sounds good* -- I believe we nailed it.


This is the exact reason I recommended, just 2 days back, 2 SA12s to my son's friend wanting to buy subs for his car.


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