# MS-8 Tips and Tricks Thread



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

In an effort to help others by not having to scroll through the thousands of posts in the ms-8 thread, I'm hoping we can get a collection of issues and tricks/tips to fix it.

If you don't mind, try to follow the same format just so it's easy for people to scroll through and search for their problem more easily. 
Also, feel free to add to anything you see posted here. There are multiple solutions to various problems, I'm sure.

Hopefully we can help people out with their issues.


Here we go...



*Problem: Image to the left of center for your tastes*
This is something a lot of people have complained about, even myself. The problem in these cases is that the image, while focused, is not where you feel it should be in regards to the center. 
One solution is to try to use the ms-8 or your headunit's balance controls and balance the audio to the right. Every balance that I've ever used are nothing more than a leveling/volume adjustment to the right/left. The ms-8 is seemingly the same. The problem with this, if you are familiar with the rules of ILD & ITD, is that with level adjustments, you're effectively only moving the the top end image (2khz+) to the center, which doesn't do jack for the midrange except for make it diffuse. This really messes things up more than helps. 

*Proposed solution:*
So, today I finally tried out my idea for fixing this: sit to the left a couple inches of where you'd normally sit while listening/driving and run the calibration in this location. BINGO! Center image is now dead center. All the other stuff is there; the image simply moved to center. Width/height/depth/etc is pretty much the exact same. 
So, to those of you having some issues with the center being too far to the left or right, I suggest simply running the auto calibration with your head moved a couple inches over to the same side at which you feel the image is to the center of. IOW, if your center is to the left, move your head to the left. If your center is a bit right, move your head to the right. Trial and error here. But, it might take care of your problems.​


*Problem: Signal input "none" or "low"*
When running the input setup, the ms-8 display says the input signal is low or none or balanced to the left/right.

*Proposed solution:*
In the one case I've had this problem, the screen would act hectic. It would say that the input signal was 'balanced left' at volume 25/35, but would tell me "signal none" at higher volumes. 
The problem in this particular case was simply a bad RCA. I ran a new set of RCAs and the problem was solved entirely. It might be a fix for you, too.​


*Problem: Setup results in overly loud subwoofer or fronts*
Just as I said, sometimes the results yield an overly powerful subwoofer or front end. Fill in the blank here.

*Proposed solution:*
Level match your drivers _before_ having the ms-8 run through the setup. It doesn't have to be an exact science, but if you can, try to level match your drivers to each other as best you can either by ear or with an RTA. Level matching at the amp is an option, but don't forget to factor in the drivers' sensitivity into this equation because simply setting all output voltages to the same may not give you a suitable level match. 
In a few cases, I have found doing this works. I don't care to get into why I think it does, but the fact is that it does.

Alternatively, the ms-8 cannot fix install issues such as small enclosures or rattles. This seems like a 'no duh', but it's not always thought of. In one case, a box was too small and resulted in a peak in its output that the ms-8 couldn't fix. 

Edit: I also found out earlier, that if you turn on the Low Pass on your sub amp and run the sweep using the amp's low pass in addition to the ms-8's setup, the results are worse. I know I've seen talk of not low passing a driver when taking measurements. This must be another case for that. So, if you're having issues, double check to make sure your amplifier's crossover isn't used as well. Make sure it's set to off (or 'all pass').​


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## funkalicious (Oct 8, 2007)

Excellent idea! Subscribed.


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## Ovalevader (Jun 21, 2010)

Its been covered in the MS8 thread, but I figure it deserves to be here... 

Unplug the microphone after running the calibration!


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

great idea erin, this is helpful... sub'd


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Problem:

Center image is not centered even with a center channel installed.

solution:

Reverse the phase of your center speaker
make sure your left and right mid/tweet are not out of phase
make sure your rears are not out of phase (if you have them)

Problem:

I install the MS-8 and everything sounds beautiful and perfect, but I still have the itch to play with crossover points, time alignment settings, and amplitude between speakers:

Solution:

Get some therapy
Tune somebody else s car that doesn't have an MS-8
Sell your MS-8 and go back to what you had


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## tintbox (Oct 25, 2008)

BigRed said:


> Problem:
> 
> Center image is not centered even with a center channel installed.
> 
> ...


LOL. Perfect and well put.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

OMG. Thanks Erin for starting this page. This will make my job much easier. I owe you one.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Problem:

Your center is small, wanders and diffuse.

Solution:

Use the rear speakers.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Problem: Something sounds weird up front but you can't put your finger on it. You've listened to a couple tracks and it seems like there's a phasing issue.*
For those of us running no center, you may have noticed something odd and seemingly a phase issue. 

*Solution: Turn Logic 7 off*
Try it. 
If you're running a center you need it on. If not, turn L7 off.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> *Problem: Something sounds weird up front but you can't put your finger on it. You've listened to a couple tracks and it seems like there's a phasing issue.*
> For those of us running no center, you may have noticed something odd and seemingly a phase issue.
> 
> *Solution: Turn Logic 7 off*
> ...


is that when running rears as well?


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> *Problem: Something sounds weird up front but you can't put your finger on it. You've listened to a couple tracks and it seems like there's a phasing issue.*
> For those of us running no center, you may have noticed something odd and seemingly a phase issue.
> 
> *Solution: Turn Logic 7 off*
> ...


Especially if you have no rear speakers. With L7 on and no center, the cente steering is turned off (basically).


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OMG. Thanks Erin for starting this page. This will make my job much easier. I owe you one.


Put 'em on the payroll.

Great idea, hopefully there's not enough issues with the MS-8 to make this a 10 page thread.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> is that when running rears as well?


I can't say for sure. I haven't tried rear fill yet.

Part of me would say yes, but then part of me says no. 

Andy might be better served to field this. But, I suggest giving it a shot. You can toggle L7 on/off with a push of a button.
The track that caused me to notice it was "Live to Tell" by Madonna. The track that makes it stand out like a sore thumb is the Fender Bass Guitar track.

I can try to upload an MP3 of the track just so you can hear what I'm talking about. I would imagine any 'in phase/out of phase' track will give you the same results. Trust me, you'll know it when you hear it.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

The out of plase information will steer rear. If you have no rear speakers, it'll disappear. 

L7 works great with stereo recordings and recordings designed to reproduce a space. If the mixologist used a bunch of processing because he fancies himself an artiste and wanted to create some cool effect, then that cool effect will be made even cooler by L7. 

If you want to test this for yourself, download audacity and make a pink noise track. Then, reverse the phase of one channel in the track, burn it onto a CD or load it onto your iPod and play it back. The noise will steer rear. 

Then, record your own voice (or someone else's) and switch the phase of one channel. The voice will appear in the back. You can build a track where the voice will rotate around the car. You have enough info to do that. 

Or, if someone has a place i can upload a track like that, I'd be happy to.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I don't know if my tip is actually a tip or not.

Andy, can the rears reinforce the front like that?


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> I don't know if my tip is actually a tip or not.
> 
> Andy, can the rears reinforce the front like that?


I've played with the rears with both no center and center and I'll definitely say the rears in any situation has helped with center image as well as stage depth in any configuration (obviously more on some recordings than others)


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I know of a few people not using the rears and are saying the center wanders, is diffuse, etc. I haven't heard that in my car...but I have never ran the MS-8 system without the rears. I can run the seat from a normal driving position to heavy reclined all the way back, and nothing in my car changes.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I'll be installing my MS-8 later this week and will be experimenting with rears but no center. Mine is another horn setup, with a pair of 2426H and a pair of 2118H sealed in the kicks. I'm eager to see how the MS-8 does with horns, and how the rears will integrate. Now I just need to pick which drivers I'm using for rears.


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## alachua (Jun 30, 2008)

*Problem: Display unit shows the message "Please Wait" for an extended period of time.*

Solution: The display cable is not securely plugged in on either the main unit or display unit.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

if we can keep it on topic, guys, I'd appreciate it.
I'd prefer this thread to be a 'quick look' for anyone who has any issues.

Thanks to all who have contributed.


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## Technic (Oct 10, 2008)

alachua said:


> *Problem: Display unit shows the message "Please Wait" for an extended period of time.*
> 
> Solution: The display cable is not securely plugged in on either the main unit or display unit.


... and be careful on how hard and straight you push that display cable plug in or the unit jack will break.


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## blackreplica (Mar 14, 2005)

If using high level inputs from a factory amp, remember to wire the subwoofer high level signal to channel 7 or 8 of the MS-8

In doubt with amplifier gain setting? Set it to 2V initially then run calibration


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Problem: The screen stays stuck in "select language"
Answer: Change the battery in the remote.


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## SoundChaser (Apr 3, 2009)

Thanks Erin, but I wish you posted this earlier. Just installed the MS8 on Sunday. Had a hard time getting an OK signal level. Balance said right, but I had to go a few clicks to the left on my head unit. Driving to work yesterday left speaker started crackling. Pulled over and switched left and right input rca’s on the MS8. Problem went away but came back 15 minutes later this time on the right side. Also display unit was getting a rainbow effect on the screen.

After work checked the voltage on the rca’s running a test tone. Left side was reading half of what the right side was reading. I figured if the front output on the head unit is bad I’d use rear out. However it was just a bad cable. How the hell does an RCA go bad anyway? 

Started calibration and this time no problem getting an OK signal level or a balance message. Halfway through the process the remote stopped working. Tried repositioning remote and screen but no go. Took out the battery and it tested fine. Put it back in and the remote was operational again.

I’m running 3 way active up front. *When the MS8 runs autotune it does not match levels?* My mids sound a little hot compared to the rest of the system. On my previous processor the levels on my mids were 2 steps lower from the tweeters and 1 step from the midbass. I could have adjusted the gains on the amps but it was easier at the processor since I was midway on most channels.


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## SoundChaser (Apr 3, 2009)

DS-21 said:


> Problem: The screen stays stuck in "select language"
> Answer: Change the battery in the remote.


The MS8 came out not that long ago. Battery should not be dead. Check it with a meter first.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

I had a battery problem too, took it apart and re-tightened it and started workin


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## M&MBlue (Jan 16, 2009)

Here's a really simple fix for something that I'm a little OCD about... I like to be able to use my volume control to maximum.... but when doing the input setup it was too high of a signal

Easy solution... I used the headunit's fader... and faded to the rear until I had the "OK"

Simple and Easy... now I don't have to worry about remembering my max volume on the headunit


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Disable any form of Active Noise Cancellation that your car might come with. This feature will cause a feedback loop making the MS-8 sound worthless. ANC can not be turned off in a menu and will need to be disabled be either unplugging the mic or mics found somewhere in the cabin or by removing dedicated ANC hardnesses on the back of the OEM head unit. See your vehicles specific instructions on how to disable it properly.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

BTW, you cna buy unlimited access to information about your vehicle online from www.alldata.com. It won't tell you what the signals are on the audio lines, but it will tell you where to find connectors, what the wire colors are and as a side benefit, you'll be able to look up tech service bulletins that your dealer is too lazy or stupid to tell you about.


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## xr4tic (May 8, 2008)

*Problem:* You hook up your stock HU to the speaker-level inputs on the MS-8, but during the setup you only get:
Signal OK
Level Low

Cranking the HU volume knob to max has no effect, or causes the Signal to distort.

*Proposed solution:* Hook up your HU to the RCA inputs on the MS-8, if you're worried about the signal voltage being too high, then make sure you don't turn the volume up too high on your HU, and set the MS-8 volume higher.​
I ran into this issue on my 2001 BMW M5, even though it could supposedly provide 5V balanced signal, I could not get it to work using the speaker level inputs.


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## joo89 (Jul 2, 2010)

is this better then the clean sweep as far as sound quality goes? Also how does it compare to audiocontrol products? anyone?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

joo89 said:


> is this better then the clean sweep as far as sound quality goes? Also how does it compare to audiocontrol products? anyone?


this is covered in MANY other threads. Please search and do not look for an answer here as it takes this thread severely off topic.

Thanks


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## joo89 (Jul 2, 2010)

Alright, sorry to disturb your focused conversation.


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

from my experience, instead of looking forward... looking at the center of the windshield during the calibration helped with centering the image..


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## Gary Mac (May 12, 2009)

Any suggestions on the best method to use to set gains with the MS8?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I haven't done this except on the sub amp since everything is on MS-8 power...

But I would go through the channel verification where it plays the white noise and make everything roughly the same volume.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

^ yep, that's what I do. That way the crossovers will be active and you won't have to worry about blowing a tweeter.
Wait until you set the drivers up, and level match your drivers based on the channel verification. Doesn't matter what volume you choose to do this at.

You can do it by ear or with an RTA. By ear is pretty quick and dirty and should work.


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## kkant (Feb 3, 2008)

When going active on the tweeters, on/off thumps are sent full-range to them. I've blown a few tweeters that way. If running them active, best to put a cap in series: a cap that is much lower than your xover freq, so it doesn't really affect the tweeter's active slope. Like say a 47 uF cap.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

kkant said:


> When going active on the tweeters, on/off thumps are sent full-range to them. I've blown a few tweeters that way. If running them active, best to put a cap in series: a cap that is much lower than your xover freq, so it doesn't really affect the tweeter's active slope. Like say a 47 uF cap.


Yes, this is right. You shold ALWAYS protect your tweeters from damage with an additional cap. I've used 20uF, but 47uF will work too.


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## Gary Mac (May 12, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> ^ yep, that's what I do. That way the crossovers will be active and you won't have to worry about blowing a tweeter.
> Wait until you set the drivers up, and level match your drivers based on the channel verification. Doesn't matter what volume you choose to do this at.
> 
> You can do it by ear or with an RTA. By ear is pretty quick and dirty and should work.


This suggestion is helpful, when I run set up, say at a MS8 volume of -40, I notice my center channel volume is much lower than my fronts. Would this affect the end sound? Would it be beneficial to use a DB meter to gauge the loudness/

However, how do you account for the individual driver gains of an active front between the mid and tweeter because the white noise is coming through both front speakers?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Gary Mac said:


> However, how do you account for the individual driver gains of an active front between the mid and tweeter because the white noise is coming through both front speakers?


Simple. Listen. 

you can hear the difference in levels between tweeters and mids. when you play the left side, you'll notice that either the top end sounds low compared to the mid or vice versa. Adjust accordingly.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I find it funny that the MS-8 is _forcing_ people to relearn basic tuning and it's wiggin folks out. lol


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## mastermind (Jul 11, 2010)

Add me to the list of people that got a remote with a basically dead battery. Might as well stop by Radio Shack and pick up a CR2032 on your way to install an MS-8.


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

Sorry for the OT buy:

Where can I buy a unit? 
Thanks!


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## SoundChaser (Apr 3, 2009)

mastermind said:


> Add me to the list of people that got a remote with a basically dead battery. Might as well stop by Radio Shack and pick up a CR2032 on your way to install an MS-8.


Your battery is probably good. Check it with a meter. Seems that taking it out and putting it back in fixes the issue. The battery contacts are solid, so my guess is that when the battery protection slip is removed it gets scratched and leaves behind some residue. Clean the contacts before you insert the battery back in.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Mine didn't have a battery protection slip from the factory.


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## bose301s (Dec 8, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> I can't say for sure. I haven't tried rear fill yet.
> 
> Part of me would say yes, but then part of me says no.
> 
> ...


Erin, I had to do this since you mentioned listening to Madonna.


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## SoundChaser (Apr 3, 2009)

If you see a rainbow on the screen, take off your polarized sunglasses. I tried several different pairs of shades and they all do the same thing.


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## raadkins16 (Apr 21, 2005)

Is the MS-8 display cable standard or proprietary? With my install, I would like to have a cable that inserts into the MS-8 at a right angle or can swivel.


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## nrubenstein (Sep 4, 2008)

If you're getting harsh treble and/or the AM radio sound, I recommend not turning your head so much during the sweeps. In my car, this works vastly better.


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## bilydkid1970 (Jul 29, 2008)

Gary Mac said:


> Any suggestions on the best method to use to set gains with the MS8?


Using an appropriate test tone, adjust your source until you measure 2.8vac on the RCAs

This is your MAXIMUM source volume setting.

Go here:

Pro-Audio Calculators. Calculator page

Plug in the Total RMS wattage per channel of the amplifiers and the Speaker Sensitivities into this Calculator and keep track of the calculated SPL for each speaker. 

The speaker with the lowest SPL will determine the SPL the rest of the speakers should not exceed.

Plug in the other Speaker Sensitivities again and enter lower "desired" RMS wattages per channel until you find the wattage rating for that speaker that matches the "desired" SPL of the quietest speaker.

Then go here:

Ohm's Law Calculators

Plug that desired/calculated wattage rating and the speaker impedance to determine the voltage settings to be measured while adjusting gain settings at the amplifier's speaker output using a 0db 2.8vac test tone as your input.

That's my plan anyway.

-BdK


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

If you don't like the way the MS-8 sounds get an RTA. :rimshot:


I'm one of the ones that has excessive Bass. :shame:


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

^^^^ or your mids and highs are'nt loud enough


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

BigRed said:


> ^^^^ or your mids and highs aren't loud enough


Ha Ha


The fat Sub makes this old fat man seem thin. 

I'm too old to appreciate thump and bump.


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## m3gunner (Aug 6, 2008)

Hey... should I be nervous about opening my MS-8? Did anyone else notice this flaw on the face of the unit?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/88884-jbl-ms-8-a.html


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## NOFATTYS (Jan 5, 2009)

I have the same blemish, couple of people do, doesnt affect anything so i dont care


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

That's a rare beauty mark. Andy will autograph it for you if you ask.


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## rockondon (Jan 18, 2008)

m3gunner said:


> Hey... should I be nervous about opening my MS-8? Did anyone else notice this flaw on the face of the unit?
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/88884-jbl-ms-8-a.html





NOFATTYS said:


> I have the same blemish, couple of people do, doesnt affect anything so i dont care


Me to ,but not as pronounced. 
It doesnt bother me personally.


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## RangOH (Jul 25, 2009)

Problem: Blemish on face of unit.
Solution: Meguires Ultimate Compound or any type of fine scratch or swirl remover for cars.


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

To use Logic7, you always needs a center or it was ok just with fronts and sides?
THX!


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

this seems like it could be a fairly innocent mistake, so thought i would share this with anyone who cares. when plugging in your inputs to the ms8, make sure they match :blush: i had my left HU out going into the right ms8 input, and vice-versa. this screws with the sound. don't do it. ever.


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## TexZen (Jul 4, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> this seems like it could be a fairly innocent mistake, so thought i would share this with anyone who cares. when plugging in your inputs to the ms8, make sure they match :blush: i had my left HU out going into the right ms8 input, and vice-versa. this screws with the sound. don't do it. ever.


That sounds like something I would do...at least you figured it out, right?


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> this seems like it could be a fairly innocent mistake, so thought i would share this with anyone who cares. when plugging in your inputs to the ms8, make sure they match :blush: i had my left HU out going into the right ms8 input, and vice-versa. *this screws with the sound.* don't do it. ever.


How so? You got a mirror image of the stage?


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## rockondon (Jan 18, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> How so? You got a mirror image of the stage?


Yup!!! ^
And yea I did it also. But the balance control worked right. Just like you said
I got a mirror image.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

i definitely didn't have a mirror image of the stage. think about all the processing the ms8 is trying to do to get the sound of the right speakers to really come from the left and vice-versa. that's what happens when the inputs are wrong, unless you put on the headphone's wrong too


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## rockondon (Jan 18, 2008)

Using the JBL controller to go left or right worked correctly. [L was L/R was R]
But playing the Focal disk hard L or hard R was wrong sided. [mirror image]
We swaped the inputs ,and that fixed it.:blush:

Except I rolled around for a day that way just jammin. It was my buddy that caught it.
But in my defense ,I do not have any well recorded disks.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> i definitely didn't have a mirror image of the stage. think about all the processing the ms8 is trying to do to get the sound of the right speakers to really come from the left and vice-versa. that's what happens when the inputs are wrong, unless you put on the headphone's wrong too


Not that much processing at all. Exactly the same amount really since the MS-8 does not have a reference to know left from right. It just processes it as it is given. 

Try this. Switch the left and right inputs again. Then switch the left and right amp inputs. See how it sounds. A complete 360.


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

Just for the initial setup you can fool the processor and use all 4 seat position as the drivers seat position. 
It works and you can switch from all them with just one touch on the remote.
You can experiment with different levels, how it sounds looking to the front or to to the rear mirror, etc, and the compare.


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## ashman5 (Aug 30, 2009)

alachua said:


> *Problem: Display unit shows the message "Please Wait" for an extended period of time.*
> 
> Solution: The display cable is not securely plugged in on either the main unit or display unit.


Thanks for this post and I can reiterate it enough.

I felt as though the display cable was securely plugged in to the main unit and it appeared to be pushed in far enough, but in fact it wasn't.

DOUBLE CHECK both ends of the cable.


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## alachua (Jun 30, 2008)

Hernan said:


> Just for the initial setup you can fool the processor and use all 4 seat position as the drivers seat position.
> It works and you can switch from all them with just one touch on the remote.
> You can experiment with different levels, how it sounds looking to the front or to to the rear mirror, etc, and the compare.


Holy Audiobahn, that is brilliant!



ashman5 said:


> Thanks for this post and I can reiterate it enough.
> 
> I felt as though the display cable was securely plugged in to the main unit and it appeared to be pushed in far enough, but in fact it wasn't.
> 
> DOUBLE CHECK both ends of the cable.


Glad to hear it helped someone else. I knew when I saw it in the main thread it would come up a few more times!


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

This is very useful thread, i really like this very much. Thank You Erin. 

Best Regards

Wendo


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## mrstangerbanger (Jul 12, 2010)

Mic10is said:


> I had a battery problem too, took it apart and re-tightened it and started workin


I also had a battery problem


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## phy1708 (Jan 21, 2010)

*Problem*: On the remote, some keys worked OK, other keys sometimes failed....after a few days all the keys stopped working....heard something moving inside when shaking the remote..

*Solution*: Thought it was a battery problem at first. Opened the back cover and found out that the screw fastening the PCB to the front cover was not where it was supposed to be. Couldn't retighten the screw since the screw hole had been worn out and was now wider than the screw thread. Replaced the screw with another one with a bigger diameter....now the keys work....it wasn't the battery, it was the floating(back and forth) PCB.

Since there's only one fastening screw on an upper part of the PCB, it seems that the screw hole will finally, sooner or later, be worn out after many pushes on the lower buttons(menu, mute). I put some small pieces of compressed sponge tape between the PCB and the back cover (on both upper and lower sides) so that the PCB would stay put aganist the button pushes.


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## Duper (Sep 11, 2010)

If the CD that came with your MS-8 doesn't work during the initial setup or you lose the CD and need to run setup again, here's a link to download the missing file: 
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11655918/MLS Setup Track Small.wav 

Burn this wav file to a CD and you'll be good to go.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

mrstangerbanger said:


> I also had a battery problem


Did you find out what the problem was? Nevermind, I thought you were referring to the car battery.


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## geniusnouman (Aug 24, 2010)

So I have my tweeters running active from the ms-8. Do I need a cap to protect my tweeters from the on/off thumb as someone here mentioned. Can someone tell me how the cap works and how to connect it. Would this get the job done?

Dayton DMPC-20 20uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor | Parts-Express.com


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## kkant (Feb 3, 2008)

Sure. Or you can pick one up at radio shack for 30 cents, that will work just as well.

Hook it up in series. That means you connect one speaker wire to one terminal of the cap, and the other terminal of the cap to one of the tweeter terminals, and then you hook up the other speaker wire to the other tweeter terminal.

A cap blocks low frequencies and DC current.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Found this. Havn't read through it completely.

Protection capacitor for tweeter in active speaker - diyAudio


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## unemployedconsumer (Sep 24, 2010)

does the distance between the cap and the tweeter matter?


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## kkant (Feb 3, 2008)

Not in this case.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

alright, this might sound negative... but don't try the ms8 if you are using horns... it doesn't work.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I thought it did a pretty good job in Mic's car at ESN.


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

I imagine it's effectiveness with horns would completely depend on the treatment of the horn body itself as well as the aiming. The MS-8 (or any auto-tuner for that matter) isn't going to compensate for resonances or anything of that nature. It may knock out some of the side effects, but that's the extent of it. Add that the auto-tune is geared more toward conventional speakers with good off axis response. The response curve was created to compensate for the effects of reflections off of surfaces like the windshield, dash, etc, whereas a controlled dispersion design such as a horn will be a whole different animal.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

We need Mic to tell us what has he done before calibrating (matching gains, etc...) and after (if he did change something). 

Kelvin


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

cajunner said:


> if anything, the objection was that it tamed the raw power of the horn, and made them sound too much like normal drivers. That is what I got out of the criticism.
> 
> I think that maybe the MS-8 simply worked "too well" on horns for this one user, and several people have noted success in their horn systems because of a preference for smoother output.
> 
> Some people like horns as they present their sound, "in your face" and all that, and when the MS-8 makes them sound less like horns, the end result is an unhappy MS-8 owner.


they didn't sound too much like normal drivers, not even as good as normal drivers. everything was tinny, lifeless. 

what, may i ask, is the purpose of installing horns if you want a high output, aggressive attack and detail, and then pop in the ms8 and it takes all that out. before gutting the ms8 i was considering replacing the horns with some high output tweeters to see how that would effect the sound. i didn't, and that will be a question in my head now. My guess that it is not an installation issue, as mentioned above, but rather an application issue, and the ms8 simply doesn't take into account something that horn does, and absolutely processes the crap out of it. 

i am curious though, who, out of all the horn users, reported positive results. I would say that Mic could be one, although he is not using the MS8 either now... Everyone else that I know of haven't had much success at all. Results seem to be synonymous. 

i made a flat out statement with no exceptions. if you have horns, don't use the ms8. I'll stand by it too. As anyone that will go though all the effort of aiming and hanging horns simply don't want a laid back experience. If that's the case, buy some tweeters and be happy. The ms8 did everything technically right. Staging was unbeatable. But there was no life, and in my case, tonality was a bit questionable. Oh, and I'll add - zero midbass.


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

I imagine the MS-8 would tame horns even more than conventional drivers perceptionally. Just because with a horn, you don't have the reflecting surfaces etc contributing to the overall "sound" as much as with conventional drivers. That's most of the reason that the MS-8's autotune rolls off so much in the upper midrange and treble region. You put a tweeter beside the dash and windshield and it's going to need to be EQ'd down. A horn you need to go with a flatter response technically because what you are hearing is a higher ratio of direct to reflected sound.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

The target curve for MS-8 is remarkably similar to the frequency response of a speaker with an ideal directivity index for listening in small rooms. So, if that means that it's designed for a reflective environment, then so be it. Horns don't eliminate reflections, but they do eliminate SOME high frequency reflections from boundariesadjacent to the horn's mouth. 

MS-8 is definitely designed to flatten the midrange and the transition from bass to midrange is designed to locate the bass in the front of the car. If you like tons of midbass, you can always put that back with the 3rd octave EQ.

One thing is for certain, if the sweeps are too loud, what you've described as no midbass will certainly be the case. If the first set of sweeps are too loud, there won't be a center image. The first set of sweeps set the channel delays. If the second set of sweeps are too loud, the system won't EQ properly. So, if you have a good center image, that indicates that the first set of sweeps (without the subwoofer) were at an appropriate level. If you have a good center image and a bad EQ, then the subwoofer sweep is too loud. This is a common mistake, because the sweeps shouldn't be loud at all. 

The attack that you like so much from horns is, in fact, usually a result of big, high-Q peaks in the midrange and better dynamic performance from the compression driver. There's nothing in MS-8 that will diminish the dynamic range--there's no compression used in the algorithm. MS-8 will tame those peaks, but depending on thier distribution, it may group some of them together and tame them with a single lower-Q filter. This may be what you don't like. Additionally, if you're not using additional tweeters with the horns, MS-8 won't provide the huge boost at high frequencies that is necessary to have highs in the car without additional tweeters. 

MS-8 was definitely NOT designed with horns in mind, since the vast majority of cars don't use them. Many horn implementations require a different solution to the standard compromises that are part of building good sounding cars. Depending on your setup and yor tuning abilities, a horn-based system may be better served by a manual EQ.


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## RangOH (Jul 25, 2009)

So if the subwoofer is too loud, then you should cut the gain on it? or should you reduce the overall volume of the sweep? 

Im having a hell of a time getting a good tune. Must have tried a hundred different things. I know im doing something wrong. I think my subs motor cover is resonating and causing problems too. (too whoever on here who owns ID, remove that damned plastic cover off the ID series please...)

It would be awesome if the ms-8 included a speaker-output (or mic input) level-checker, like it does for the headunit setup. my dumbass could really use it.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

RangOH said:


> So if the subwoofer is too loud, then you should cut the gain on it? or should you reduce the overall volume of the sweep?


I think Andy said to raise the gain on the Sub. I tried lowering the gain on the Sub and it didn't help the Sub was still way to loud.


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## chauss (Sep 20, 2009)

Try setting the subsonic filter on the JBL at or slightly above the resonant frequency of the subwoofer and see if that helps-


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

michaelsil1 said:


> I think Andy said to raise the gain on the Sub. I tried lowering the gain on the Sub and it didn't help the Sub was still way to loud.


First of all, turn your amp gains up!
The gains structure inside the MS8 are about SLP relation between drivers.
It has a relative large window for gain matching but it becomes not so large when the EQ does it thing. Proper gain matching is crutial to get unclipped clean and balanced results.
its not rocket science but neither plug and play.
Andy...


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## Gary Mac (May 12, 2009)

Hernan said:


> First of all, turn your amp gains up!
> The gains structure inside the MS8 are about SLP relation between drivers.
> It has a relative large window for gain matching but it becomes not so large when the EQ does it thing. Proper gain matching is crutial to get unclipped clean and balanced results.
> its not rocket science but neither plug and play.
> Andy...


Ive have one of the original pre-sales and still have not gotten this right... My best result was to level match the "output diagostic" fuzz to the center speaker since the center was running off the MS8. I feel like the fronts and rears match, but the sub is always way off, regardless of how much gain I give it. I ended up using the graphic eq to tame the sub, I think comparatively off of the MS8 tune, 40hz was at like 91 db and incrementially dropped to 68db @ 160hz and was realitively flat from there. To balance, I dropped 40 to -7.5 db and tappered it to 0 @ 160hz. It sounds ok now.

Anyone else do this or am I completely off here?


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Long time no see/hear Gary!! Mic spent countless hours working with the MS8 and when he was done it was nothing short of amazing. Not to put words in his mouth I think the reason he went back to the 700 was flexibility and more tuning options, he's a tweaker. Give him a call, I bet he could steer you in the right direction.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

chefhow said:


> Long time no see/hear Gary!! Mic spent countless hours working with the MS8 and when he was done it was nothing short of amazing. Not to put words in his mouth I think the reason he went back to the 700 was flexibility and more tuning options, he's a tweaker. Give him a call, I bet he could steer you in the right direction.


yes please dont put words in my mouth, especially when you use words like amazing to describe how my car sounded w/ MS8
Post MS-8 maybe on a good day, w/ Ms-8 not so much IMO


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## MikeF (Aug 21, 2010)

based on what I heard pre Cockeysville show, I'd have to agree with both chefhow's (he's a tweaker) and Mic's (not so much) comments. Trying to sort mine out now.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

IF you're having trouble getting a good tune and the bass is what doesn't sound right to you, turn the sub amp gain DOWN.


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## Duper (Sep 11, 2010)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> IF you're having trouble getting a good tune and the bass is what doesn't sound right to you, turn the sub amp gain DOWN.


Before you do the sweeps, not after, correct?


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## MikeF (Aug 21, 2010)

How about hearing from those who have deviated from the recommended x-over settings/slopes/etc. Not looking for 50 pages of "the manual recommendations work fine for me", but maybe some insight as to what deviations +/- from the manual have done, both good and bad. Some added info such as "2-way" or "3-way" fronts, brands, other interesting *things* you may have stumbled upon that have benefited the overall staging/imaging/presentation. I'm sure the hard-core tweakers on here have played with this thing, and this thread would be as good as place as any to record their findings, no?


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## douggiestyle (Apr 29, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> IF you're having trouble getting a good tune and the bass is what doesn't sound right to you, turn the sub amp gain DOWN.


Andy (or anyone else), Spent all night trouble shooting, so I'm hoping for some clarification here.

2 way front + sub, no centers or rears. 20/80/2250 for xover

Imaging is fine but it's bass heavy and mids are barely audible (had to put my ears next to the speakers)

I tried turning the sub gain DOWN nearly all the way before recalibrating, but the problem persists. Wondering if I'm doing something wrong here. Just 300W to an inf. perfect and it's overwhelming.

While I'm at it, can we confirm that turning processing OFF still leaves xover settings intact? Just want to make sure it wouldn't send full range signals to all drivers.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

douggiestyle said:


> Andy (or anyone else), Spent all night trouble shooting, so I'm hoping for some clarification here.
> 
> 2 way front + sub, no centers or rears. 20/80/2250 for xover
> 
> ...


I also have the same problem so you're not alone.


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## Salami (Oct 10, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> if we can keep it on topic, guys, I'd appreciate it.
> I'd prefer this thread to be a 'quick look' for anyone who has any issues.
> 
> Thanks to all who have contributed.



It is amazing how many posts in this thread are questions rather than tips and tricks. 


Folks FYI there is another thread for questions/problems/etc. Please use it instead. Use the search function.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

If the mids are inaudible and the bas sis too loud, there are two possible problems. 1. Midrange speakers are conected out of phase, 2) all the sweeps are too loud. What volume setting are you using on MS-8 during acoustic calibration and is there an additional amp driving the mids and tweeters?


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Andy, if there is ever a flash upgrade, maybe you can have the ms8 determine how loud the volume should be considering it controls the sweeps output and you have stereo headphones to pick up the sensitivity. it would verify on the screen just like it does with the head unit output. just a thought.


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## Gary Mac (May 12, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If the mids are inaudible and the bas sis too loud, there are two possible problems. 1. Midrange speakers are conected out of phase, 2) all the sweeps are too loud. What volume setting are you using on MS-8 during acoustic calibration and is there an additional amp driving the mids and tweeters?


What is the optimal loudness of the sweeps? ie, if I use a db meter, what range should I shoot for? Should the loudness of the sweeps be the same for each speaker, relatively speaking?


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

I think he said around 85db


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Gary Mac said:


> What is the optimal loudness of the sweeps? ie, if I use a db meter, what range should I shoot for? Should the loudness of the sweeps be the same for each speaker, relatively speaking?


Salami said it, please use the other threads for questions... 

Kelvin


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## avpman (Sep 15, 2010)

Gary Mac said:


> This suggestion is helpful, when I run set up, say at a MS8 volume of -40, I notice my center channel volume is much lower than my fronts. Would this affect the end sound? Would it be beneficial to use a DB meter to gauge the loudness/
> 
> However, how do you account for the individual driver gains of an active front between the mid and tweeter because the white noise is coming through both front speakers?


Sorry to be such a NOOB, but what exactly is meant by "_Wait until you set the drivers up, and level match your drivers based on the channel verification_". I have a factory head unit and separate amp combo. I removed the factory amp and am using the HU's low level outputs. I'm asking this because I'm having a difference in output between the speakers on the MS8 and the Subwoofer on a separate amp.


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## Gary Mac (May 12, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> Salami said it, please use the other threads for questions...
> 
> Kelvin


Well forum muscles, if you notice, my question was asked in this thread as a follow up for clairification of another member's statement.. Are you implying I should seek clairification of a person's statement in a thread different from where it originated?

Anyway, regarding the loudness of the calibration tones for set up, I dont think 85db was the right number, here is why: I searched through the main ms8 thread, the only post that really references loudness of the tones was 3565, and the follow up posts never really mentioned an optimal db level. I think 85 is too loud because when I measured the loudness with MS8 volume at -30, the tones were at like 67db, now my gains were kind of low @ about 1/3, but even after I set my gains higher to about 1/2 and put the ms8 volume @ 20, the tone's level was about 77db or so. So Im thinking 85db would be too high because Andy consistently recommends set up to occur between -35 and -20 and uses the statement "if you think its too low (in terms of volume), its probably correct," 85db would be pretty loud and I dont think anyone would percieve that as being too low. 

The good news is, my midbass and low end of my mids was much improved with the increased gain and higher volume calebration over the lower-volume calebration, however the front image is less focused.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Gary Mac said:


> Well forum muscles, if you notice, my question was asked in this thread as a follow up for clairification of another member's statement.. Are you implying I should seek clairification of a person's statement in a thread different from where it originated?
> 
> Anyway, regarding the loudness of the calibration tones for set up, I dont think 85db was the right number, here is why: I searched through the main ms8 thread, the only post that really references loudness of the tones was 3565, and the follow up posts never really mentioned an optimal db level. I think 85 is too loud because when I measured the loudness with MS8 volume at -30, the tones were at like 67db, now my gains were kind of low @ about 1/3, but even after I set my gains higher to about 1/2 and put the ms8 volume @ 20, the tone's level was about 77db or so. So Im thinking 85db would be too high because Andy consistently recommends set up to occur between -35 and -20 and uses the statement "if you think its too low (in terms of volume), its probably correct," 85db would be pretty loud and I dont think anyone would percieve that as being too low.
> 
> The good news is, my midbass and low end of my mids was much improved with the increased gain and higher volume calebration over the lower-volume calebration, however the front image is less focused.


lol, if you read a couple of posts up, you'll see Salami's post. I'm just quoting what he's saying. 
For follow ups or clarifications, you can PM the poster or as stated earlier, create another thread. 

Sorry for this Erin... Please continue with this thread. 

Kelvin


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Gary Mac said:


> Well forum muscles, if you notice, my question was asked in this thread as a follow up for clairification of another member's statement.. Are you implying I should seek clairification of a person's statement in a thread different from where it originated?
> 
> Anyway, regarding the loudness of the calibration tones for set up, I dont think 85db was the right number, here is why: I searched through the main ms8 thread, the only post that really references loudness of the tones was 3565, and the follow up posts never really mentioned an optimal db level. I think 85 is too loud because when I measured the loudness with MS8 volume at -30, the tones were at like 67db, now my gains were kind of low @ about 1/3, but even after I set my gains higher to about 1/2 and put the ms8 volume @ 20, the tone's level was about 77db or so. So Im thinking 85db would be too high because Andy consistently recommends set up to occur between -35 and -20 and uses the statement "if you think its too low (in terms of volume), its probably correct," 85db would be pretty loud and I dont think anyone would percieve that as being too low.
> 
> The good news is, my midbass and low end of my mids was much improved with the increased gain and higher volume calebration over the lower-volume calebration, however the front image is less focused.


that's an iindication that the sweeps are too loud--time alignment isn't set roperly because of aclipped mic. I'm sorry guys, I haven't had tiime to determine the appropriate level of the sweeps. 

All of this midbass discussion suggests to me that the target curve may not include enough midbass for people who compete or who are used to competition cars. Just add some with the 31-band EQ.


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## kunstmilch (Aug 1, 2009)

Subscribed.


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## Jpandes (Nov 12, 2010)

THANK YOU all for posting your knowledge about the MS-8 here. I will be installing mine as soon as I find the time...

John


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

here's a retarded question: although i think most of us hook the speakers up as + positive - negative (or red pos, black neg, etc.), is anyone actually testing the speakers for phase and polarity? i seem to remember that at least in diy audio, there were a number of manufacturers or individual drivers that did not always follow this method. i looked into getting a phase tester (just to make sure) and they are really hard to find, and using the battery test is potentially damaging (and it's nearly impossible to see a tweeter move).


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## kenikh (Jan 17, 2011)

This is fantastic - I just picked mined up and I am willing to guess that this is going to save me a LOT of hair puling.


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## FREQBOX (Jun 25, 2007)

when I first put the ms8 in I had little to no midbass output compared to my previous setup.
So at the suggestion of a friend I tried a much lower xover point than I would think to use between my midbass and sub, [email protected] and the midbass output and upfront bass is back.
It is a lot like my previous set up and that was sub [email protected] and midbass [email protected]


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## Vitty (Feb 26, 2011)

*Problem:* You hook up your stock amplifier(Bose or the likes) to the speaker-level high inputs on the MS-8, but all you get is Signal NONE or an occasional Signal NOISY

Cranking the HU volume knob to max has no effect. You've quadruple checked your input connections and placed the MS-8 install cd in another player to be sure you hear output. If you skip the input signal detection and you hear audio out of your speakers....

*Proposed solution:* Double check you car's audio settings menu's and look to be sure your HU is not set to output surround sound. It must be set to 2 channel (stereo).


I had this problem in my 2007 Cadillac Escalade. There were two buttons in the settings menu that said 2 ch and 5.1 ch. The 2 ch button was clicked. However, down at the bottom of the menu there were buttons that said normal and surround. Surround was clicked. The instant I clicked Normal mode the MS-8 registered Signal OK and all was good.


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## sniper5431 (Dec 8, 2009)

Here is my tip for this topic. DO NOT USE A RELAY. I was using a relay before the remote turn on for the MS-8. What was happening was the MS-8 was randomly cycling on and off. Which also caused my amps to power down for a few seconds. What appeared to be causing this was the sound pressure in my trunk where the relay was installed. Thanks to My subs they must have been causing the relay to lose proof of closure for very brief time period. Thus, causing a chain of events of power cycling. Moral of story is its probably best to run the remote from head unit straight to the MS-8. (atleast in my case). This was never spotted when I used a Zapco DSP-6 processor. The Relay was only switching on amps. They must have been riding through the brief loss of closure. Thanks to 
Andy's dedication of trying to make his new products customers happy. He sugested over the phone I remove the relay from the loop. Problem solved. 

Rich


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## Jprice2708 (Feb 12, 2011)

kkant said:


> Sure. Or you can pick one up at radio shack for 30 cents, that will work just as well.
> 
> Hook it up in series. That means you connect one speaker wire to one terminal of the cap, and the other terminal of the cap to one of the tweeter terminals, and then you hook up the other speaker wire to the other tweeter terminal.
> 
> A cap blocks low frequencies and DC current.


Ok, just bought two 22uF caps for my two tweeters, but they have a positive and negative terminal on them. I know I solder one wire from the cap onto the positive speaker terminal, and then hook the positive wire from the amp to the other wire on the cap, but does it matter which direction the cap is? Should I place the negative wire on the cap closer too the amp or the speaker? Thanks


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Jprice2708 said:


> Ok, just bought two 22uF caps for my two tweeters, but they have a positive and negative terminal on them. I know I solder one wire from the cap onto the positive speaker terminal, and then hook the positive wire from the amp to the other wire on the cap, but does it matter which direction the cap is? Should I place the negative wire on the cap closer too the amp or the speaker? Thanks


Electrolytic caps?


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## Jprice2708 (Feb 12, 2011)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Electrolytic caps?


Yep, pretty sure they are. Is there a better type to use? These are the only ones the electronics store in my town sells large enough...


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## Joker_927 (Feb 18, 2011)

*Problem:* Your after-market HU says "Disc Error" or similar when you put the setup CD in.

*Solution* Read the manual again. After-market head units using pre-amp outputs don't need to do the initial signal calibration (they don't need the CD at all). Select skip and move on.


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## Jprice2708 (Feb 12, 2011)

I've been reading up on capacitors for the last three days while waiting for someone to reply, and it sounds like Polypropylene caps would be much better as they aren't as temperature sensitive, but in all the reading it says the type of capacitor is critical, so am I on the right track or should I be using electrolytic, or another kind of cap? Also anyone care to tell me if I'm right in thinking the negative pole goes on the amp side and positive to the speaker?


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## bilydkid1970 (Jul 29, 2008)

Joker_927 said:


> *Problem:* Your after-market HU says "Disc Error" or similar when you put the setup CD in.
> 
> *Solution* Read the manual again. After-market head units using pre-amp outputs don't need to do the initial signal calibration (they don't need the CD at all). Select skip and move on.


I used the CD and performed calibration on my aftermarket Eclipse several times. With my higher voltage preamp outputs being matched to the MS8's lower voltage rated inputs, doing so allowed me to set the output level "just right" using the lcd readout to identify too little/too much volume. And utilizing the calibration to the head unit to make "extra sure" that the output was flat as far as the MS8 is concerned is something I paid for. There may be some cheap decks with preamps that may not be outputting a flat signal. It should work. Mine does.

I'd Buy a new CD from JBL if warranty service won't replace it for free.

-BdK


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Are will need nonpolarized electrolytics if that is what you are using.

Film like a metalized polypropylene will sound better than electrolytics. Film caps are not polarized. But a 22uf film will be sort of large. It doesn't matter where they are placed- at the amp or at the speaker. Doesn't matter on positive or negative leg of the speaker, most put them on the positive leg.




Jprice2708 said:


> I've been reading up on capacitors for the last three days while waiting for someone to reply, and it sounds like Polypropylene caps would be much better as they aren't as temperature sensitive, but in all the reading it says the type of capacitor is critical, so am I on the right track or should I be using electrolytic, or another kind of cap? Also anyone care to tell me if I'm right in thinking the negative pole goes on the amp side and positive to the speaker?


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## Jprice2708 (Feb 12, 2011)

Ok, so non polarised is the key , thanks.


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## evilbass (Apr 19, 2011)

*JBL MS-8 Tips and Tricks....*

I know there is a thread on the JBL website, but no one has really said anything on it....

I spoke to Andy and Gary about this, and thought I would share a couple things, and in reply, hope to get more tips and tricks that you guys have used.

Tip 1) When selecting your gain (factory -20db), before going into the acoustical adjustment, set your gain as low as possible, for a better overall outcome. (ie: -30db or even -40db) - Andy

Tip 2) During the acoustical adjustment, while the headphone Mics are one, try moving your head left or right to help collapse your center image. Try doing this on both driver and passenger side. - Gary

Tip 3) When doing the "look at driver mirror" and "look at passenger mirror" part of the test, try looking PAST the mirror. I have found that this helps widen the sound stage. - Chad

What all have you guys come up with?!?!?!


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## acidbass303 (Dec 3, 2010)

*Re: JBL MS-8 Tips and Tricks....*



evilbass said:


> I know there is a thread on the JBL website, but no one has really said anything on it....
> 
> I spoke to Andy and Gary about this, and thought I would share a couple things, and in reply, hope to get more tips and tricks that you guys have used.
> 
> ...



a little explanation on that please?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You can shift the center image more towards the center of the car by moving your head towards the center of the car. Some people say their center is too far to the side. This is a way to put it more in the physical center of the car.


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## acidbass303 (Dec 3, 2010)

But isnt the physical center of the car ia where the acoustic center will be if there is no TA or processing applied? (assuming symmetrical install)

And isnt the purpose of ms8 or any dsp to make the acoustic center right at the center of listening position?


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## CraigE (Jun 10, 2008)

acidbass303 said:


> And isnt the purpose of ms8 or any dsp to make the acoustic center right at the center of listening position?


NO !!! 

But there are a few that prefer that.

Edit; But we're getting off topic.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

acidbass303 said:


> But isnt the physical center of the car ia where the acoustic center will be if there is no TA or processing applied? (assuming symmetrical install)
> 
> And isnt the purpose of ms8 or any dsp to make the acoustic center right at the _*center of listening position*_?


BIG NO!!!!! 

Where do you usually install a center channel? In front of your steering wheel? Don't think so... 

HOWEVER, there's a lot of people on this board that like their center stage right in front of them. That's all preference there 

Kelvin


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> You can shift the center image more towards the center of the car by moving your head towards the center of the car. Some people say their center is too far to the side. This is a way to put it more in the physical center of the car.


I have MS8 with center channel and sometimes my center image is 'to the right' not extremely off...but not quite bullseye centered. Do these same adjustment methods apply if using a Center Channel?


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## acidbass303 (Dec 3, 2010)

subwoofery said:


> BIG NO!!!!!
> 
> Where do you usually install a center channel? In front of your steering wheel? Don't think so...
> 
> ...


*confused*

Preferences aside, i would like to know whats the proper acoustic center of the stage? All this time i have been trying to get the stage centered right in font of me.( with success too )

Just wondering, if the acoustic center has to be the physical center of the car, then whats the purpose of having multiple positioning presets? Since with every selected position will yield the exact same center...

Looking for some more valuable input..


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

The center of the car should be the where the center of the image is and here's why. When you go to a live show and sit off-center, does the band move so that they're right in front of you? Nope. If they're to your right, they're to your right. Same thing applies in a car. You're not seated in the center of the car, unless you own a McLaren F1, so the image should not be right in front of you. 

Also, even with a symmetrical install, the image is rarely dead center of the car. It needs to be symmetrical AND the speakers need to be positioned so make that happen. Simply dropping speakers in the doors is symmetrical but without T/A and EQ I don't think I've ever heard a basic door install image well.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

acidbass303 said:


> *confused*
> 
> Preferences aside, i would like to know whats the proper acoustic center of the stage? All this time i have been trying to get the stage centered right in font of me.( with success too )
> 
> ...


Here's a good read. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/62466-where-exactly-should-center-located.html

To be honest I was like you at first, trying to get the center right in front of me. Then I realized that it doesn't sound right coz the left side soundstage is squashed compared to the right hand side. 

Kelvin


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## acidbass303 (Dec 3, 2010)

Very nicely put by both of you sirs, makes sense.
Thank you for the link to a very good post mr Kelvin.

Just need a little more information on what do the different "seating positions" on ms8 do? And should i try to get my head with the mic on as much as in the center of the car ( between the two front seats) only during the first set of sweeps or should it stay there through all four of them?

Just finished reading Mr Patrick Bateman's excellent post on physcoacoustics stuff regarding that radical tweeters placement, good food for thought!


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

The different seating positions just give the MS-8 more info to correct the sound. I would start with sitting in the normal seating positions and see how that goes then adjust from there if you need to.


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

*Re: JBL MS-8 Tips and Tricks....*



evilbass said:


> I know there is a thread on the JBL website, but no one has really said anything on it....
> 
> I spoke to Andy and Gary about this, and thought I would share a couple things, and in reply, hope to get more tips and tricks that you guys have used.
> 
> ...


Evilbass, I went out and tried step No.3 by looking 15-20 degrees 'beyond' the ends of the Left and Right of the side view mirrors and I must say that it has made a significant improvement to the sound-stage and overall dimensionality of my set-up. I just wanted to say thanks for posting that tip - I had scoured everything I could read re: MS8 on this forum but overlooked No.3. It's amazing to me how you can get so many different results with the MS8 auto-tune! I think I will be keeping this for a while


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## evilbass (Apr 19, 2011)

No problem buddy!  I'm glad I was able to help at least one person! )


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## acidbass303 (Dec 3, 2010)

evilbass said:


> No problem buddy!  I'm glad I was able to help at least one person! )


no mate, you helped me too 
so did subwoofery and quality_sound 

thank you all, and thanks to JBL for the MS-8 

now my center is "proper" i.e. center of the dash/windshield and the stage is as wide as it can get with in the physical boundaries of the car. (the first time i really enjoyed listening to chesky's demo disc)

i was wondering if any of you can tell me about a track or two to check my staging/imaging with regards of instrument placement over the stage along with a "key" to where the instruments etc should be located in a properly setup stage?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

acidbass303 said:


> no mate, you helped me too
> so did subwoofery and quality_sound
> 
> thank you all, and thanks to JBL for the MS-8
> ...


When speaking of "chesky's demo disc", do you mean: "Chesky Records - The Ultimate Demonstration Disk 2"? 

If not then this is a really good CD to own. 

Kelvin


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## acidbass303 (Dec 3, 2010)

subwoofery said:


> When speaking of "chesky's demo disc", do you mean: "Chesky Records - The Ultimate Demonstration Disk 2"?
> 
> If not then this is a really good CD to own.
> 
> Kelvin


Sir its Chesky Records - Ultimate Demonstration disk that i have ( perhaps volume 1, the one that starts off with spanish harlem)


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## n_olympios (Oct 23, 2008)

There are 5 in total demo/promotional disks from Chesky:

1) Chesky Records - Sampler & Audiophile test cd vol 1 (1990)
2) Chesky Records - Promotional Sampler (1991)
3) Chesky Records - Promotional Sampler (1993)
4) Chesky Records - The Ultimate Demonstration Disk 
5) Chesky Records - The Ultimate Demonstration Disk Volume II
6) Chesky Records - 20th Anniversary 2cd set (2006)

Of those, #1, #4 and #5 also include test signals and instructions on how to make your sound better. But #5 is a SACD disk.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Be careful about deciding your center image is off simply because the singer isn't always in the center. This depends a great deal on the recording. Singers aren't always in the center. 

MS-8 is designed to place the center at the mid-point between the two front speakers. That means "in the center of the dash". If you want to check this, download audacity from www.sourceforge.net and make some test tracks. Filter some pink noise between 100Hz and 3kHz and make it mono. If that seems to come from the the center, then it's correct. 

Finally, this turning of the head more or less simply alters the amount of high frequency in the final tuning. Turning your head more causes more high frequency to be masked in the measurement taken by the microphone that's more off axis. That removes high frequencies from the average of the 6 measurements, which will cause the EQ to add more high frequency to the correction filter. 

Nothing magic here boys...move along, please.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Be careful about deciding your center image is off simply because the singer isn't always in the center. This depends a great deal on the recording. Singers aren't always in the center.
> 
> MS-8 is designed to place the center at the mid-point between the two front speakers. That means "in the center of the dash". If you want to check this, download audacity from www.sourceforge.net and make some test tracks. Filter some pink noise between 100Hz and 3kHz and make it mono. If that seems to come from the the center, then it's correct.
> 
> ...


That's odd. It seems my "center" is above my steering wheel with the MS-8(which I actually prefer it to be).


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

rain27 said:


> That's odd. It seems my "center" is above my steering wheel with the MS-8(which I actually prefer it to be).


Well...then you're lucky.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

If you ONLY want to optimize the drivers seat, should you still measure the other seating positions, or does it not matter?


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## acidbass303 (Dec 3, 2010)

i find that doing all seats does help
especially in the sub / mid blending and stage width, i might be wrong though.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I thought Andy said it didn't work that way.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

acidbass303 said:


> i find that doing all seats does help
> especially in the sub / mid blending and stage width, i might be wrong though.


I've noticed the same but I didn't want to say anything because I thought it didn't work like that.


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## evilbass (Apr 19, 2011)

hmmmm.... what if you have a two seater sports care like me?!?!? LOL should you just re-do the rear seats as the front seats?!??!


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## evilbass (Apr 19, 2011)

and btw... WOOHOOO, I helped two people!!! I'm on a roll! ;o)


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well...then you're lucky.


Actually, my car is fairly cramped. Over the steering wheel and the center of my dash is only separated by a few inches. So my ears could be playing tricks on me. Either way, it sounds great and there's no other processor I'd rather have at the moment.


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## RedCode (May 7, 2011)

Thx for this tips.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

The best tip I've found with the MS8 that gave huge SQ improvements was to half ass level match your amps and use crossover points that put the speakers in their most efficient zone. By raising the low pass on my subs from 63hz to 95hz, the midbass to 950hz and the mids to 6khz, the system came alive. Before that, tunes were inconsistent. There was distortion at low volumes. Now the tunes are very consistent, much cleaner, and SQ has improved tenfold.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Probably because it isn't trying to EQ something to death to make it work.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

One more tip. If you are wanting to cross your center over really low, like say 50 hertz (the lowest you can go), you better have an 8 or even better a 10 in the center because that's where most of the bass is at. I have (IMO) a pretty badassed high excursion 7 in the center and it can get a bit over driven going down to 50.


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## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

Here's a tip I finally learned. You DON'T HAVE TO POINT THE REMOTE AT THE DISPLAY! Everyone else probably already knows that and I feel like a real idot, but figuring this out was a big deal for me. I was getting really sick of digging the remote and display out of the center console to increase/decrease the bass level from song to song. Now I leave the display in the center console and have the remote mounted on the side of the console in a very ergo location. I also set my default screen to "acoustic adjustment" and I can adjust the sub level up and down just by feel now. How this helps someone from the same frustration.


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## radarcontact (Oct 28, 2010)

Problem:
"SIGNAL NONE"

Possible Solution:
Check to see that you haven't inadvertently shorted a couple of the MS-8's high-level input wires. They are pre-cut for easy stripping; be careful when "stashing" the unused ones. From what I understand, the input and output wires are always hot, whether they are set up to be used or set up to be unused.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## radarcontact (Oct 28, 2010)

Not really an 8 trick, but this may be of use to those trying to set up an 8 system. The 8's manual says to set amp gains at 2v. This was an area of great stress to me because I had no idea how to do that...mine weren't marked per se, so I had know idea where to set them initially.

Here's what I've deduced since that time:
Most amps have an electrical gain setting range of around 200millivolt (or .2v) up to around 4v, from my experience.
Most amps have a physical "knob range" that goes from 8 o'clock around to 4 o'clock. 
Usually it will start at 8 o'clock/4v and rotate clockwise to end at 4 o'clock/.2v
Usually straight up/12 o'clock will be 1v
Therefore 2v will be about 10 o'clock

If your amp remotely resembles what I have described here, you can feel confident putting your amps at 10 o'clock and moving on from there.












Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## duro78 (Dec 24, 2011)

That def helps

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## nick650 (Feb 7, 2011)

I put my gains at .35 /right before audible distortion as this helps make sure you don't use to much ms-8's gain and your headunit.

Note: Moving yourself over a few inches to the center helps move the stage over and DOES work FYI.

Also, if you have tweeters pointing at you, make dam sure each one hits your ear correctly because it will really throw your stage off and sound weird. I had the left more off axis and the right off axis. You need to have the right one EXACTLY at your ear and the left slightly off axis as you want the right to hit you with the same info/ intensity as the left and this helps with that.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

nick650 said:


> Also, if you have tweeters pointing at you, make dam sure each one hits your ear correctly because it will really throw your stage off and sound weird. I had the left more off axis and the right off axis. You need to have the right one EXACTLY at your ear and the left slightly off axis as you want the right to hit you with the same info/ intensity as the left and this helps with that.


While you may have experienced better sound in your car after aiming the tweeters, this is usually not necessary unless the tweeters are really big--like 2" tweeters (is there sich a thing?)


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## radarcontact (Oct 28, 2010)

Another thing that I did was to have the wife come do the calibration for the passenger seat -- I stayed in the driver seat, motionless, and she ran the calibration movements for the passenger seat. Here's why: There are times when I am the only one in the car, BUT, you can't drive from the passenger seat, so if you are trying to impress the passenger using the PASSENGER setting, most likely you will be in the driver's seat, so why not let the MS-8 compensate for your body mass and possible speaker obstruction?


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

Bump for all the $130 sales and new owners.


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## jdsoldger (Feb 14, 2012)

1fishman said:


> Bump for all the $130 sales and new owners.


and old owners! I need to read through this!

My new one will be replacing my slightly scratched up unit (since it will be on display in the next instal.) The old one will go to live (at the cost of the new one) in a friends car.


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## Blackbeard (Nov 19, 2014)

What $130 sales?


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## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

Found this the other day on another site.


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## jdsoldger (Feb 14, 2012)

Blackbeard said:


> What $130 sales?


Sold out now. Harmon had a coupon code for factory refurbished units at $130.


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## Blackbeard (Nov 19, 2014)

Noooooo.........


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

*Problem, *
you prefer visual instructions over reading the manual or...

*Solution,*
*Go to Youtube, and Look for Erin's three JBL MS-8 videos.*

JBL MS-8 system setup and auto-tune #1 (2 & 3)

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_yl...eo&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=chr-yo_gc&type=888596

(It really makes getting started less a chore, thanks Erin)


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## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

Andy is pretty explicit about basic beginning setup in this thread: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/117276-amp-gain-ms8-calibration.html

I have had my MS8 for about 2 months but have been waiting to install it until I had the rest of my speakers and new amp. Today finally bought the last of it so hopefully I can get it installed in the next couple weeks. I am stoked. I really have no idea what to expect though. I have never listened to a tuned system with time alignment and all that jazz.

I'll definitely be partaking in these vids.


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