# 2-Way Setup? What is best 8" Woofer + Full Range/Tweeter



## bradesp (Feb 21, 2009)

Guys,

I'm in a miata with an 8" door speaker and an A-Pillar full range . I have an Audisound Bit Ten for doing a custom cross-over / Setup.

I currently have an Dayton 8" speaker + 2" (Aurasound Whisper) now, but "at volume the Aurasound get's nasty. 

Wondering about two-way setups using the NZ3 (or other less expensive full range drivers) + a "musical" Mid-Range 8" Woofer.

Thoughts anyone?

Brad


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

What 8" are you using? Xover points? The Whisper is a nice lil driver.... should be pretty clean once you tame any peaking.


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## jowens500 (Sep 5, 2008)

I’ve never heard a system with one Whisper per side that worked. They just don’t have the output needed.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

A 2 way with an 8" is tough to pull off. An 8" will not play particularly high, cleanly, and most tweeters don't play low enough to pair with an 8". People try to get around this by using a "full range" midrange, but they tend to have poor sensitivity, and they will not play up high like a true tweeter will. How large of a speaker can you use in the pillar, and can you get it on axis? If you can get a fairly large tweeter (or one that can be crossed lower than most), or small midrage (2"-3") on axis then you'll be ok.

The Dayton RS225P, for example starts to tank at 1khz, and above 2khz it gets pretty useless off axis. To make this work you want a tweeter that can play cleanly down to about 1khz, ideally. This isn't easy to do. Most tweeters can't play this low while still giving you high volume output. Most of the ones that can are large which could cause installation difficulties. If you use a midrange, you'll still have the size issue, and you'll need to get them on axis or you'll lose the top octave. A 2 way with an 8" is doable, but careful attention needs to be given to the speakers used, there is a reason why the typical 2 way only has a 6.5" mid, they play higher and pair with standard size tweeters much better in a car.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

If you don't have extra channels to spare a real midrange with good sensitivity paired with a Dayton nd16 on a simple passive might work. That would require research and trial and error to pull off though.


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## mrichard89 (Sep 29, 2016)

I’ve heard several vehicles with a 2-way setup with an 8” mid and tweeter. The illusion c8 set is great, but my favorite is the Audio Development w800neo with the MM1 tweeter crossed around 3,200 hz at 24db.


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

You could always consider using a 3” component set with a passive crossover, and using the 8” as a dedicated midbass. If the mid and tweet are kept next to each other they can be time aligned and EQed as a single channel. Even a coax like the Illusion C3 flax with the passives would work well in your setup.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

jowens500 said:


> I’ve never heard a system with one Whisper per side that worked. They just don’t have the output needed.


I would imagine that is the case as OP stated. Even with using a 2.5" or so fullrange there comes a point to where output of all drivers are limited by the weakest link... the small fullrange with it's low reference efficiency. You can cross it higher and pump extra power to avoid some issues, but I have to question where I've seen some cross at 1khz to gain more output. Seems you're losing some of the midrange attributes for more output. Definitely can't see crossing the Whisper low enough to be of use in the lower midrange area unless you're willing to sacrifice upper volumes, but I suppose those who have or continue to use it are willing. If you need more output and need to use a small fullrange as the midrange (due to room), probably best to step up to a 3-way.


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

I might have some 8" that would work well for you...

Eton 8-472/32

Used them for a few months in a 2016 Challenger, powered by a Zapco DC360.4

Have a pair of those Zapco DC360.4 and a DC500.1 for sale too


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## jowens500 (Sep 5, 2008)

Or do more than one Whisper per side, if room allows it.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

The pairing of Whispers would cause comb filtering, no? There is/was someone that did two per side, but rolled one off earlier. Slipping my mind early this morning, but I did like the way they were set in the pillars. Very neat.


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## jowens500 (Sep 5, 2008)

They are in an array and time delayed appropriately.


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## Dan750iL (Jan 16, 2016)

CDT Audio ES-02 might do the trick. You'd definitely want to cross it as high as the Dayton will play but it should work.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

If you have room for a large diameter tweeter (and the cash to pay), then I'd recommend a Dynaudio MW172, and Esotar 110 combo. 
Cross them over at about 2,500hZ:

https://www.dynaudio.com/car-audio/aftermarket/esotec/esotec-mw-172-woofer

https://www.dynaudio.com/car-audio/aftermarket/esotar/esotar-110-tweeter


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## bradesp (Feb 21, 2009)

To those that have suggested using two Aura Whispers, I'm a bit tight on space, so I'd prefer to use a single, even slightly larger full-range / tweeter if possible. I'd also prefer to stick with a two way setup, using the BitTen to control the cross-over and do EQ to tweak the final sound.


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## bradesp (Feb 21, 2009)

BTW, while I said I have plenty of room in my doors for the woofers, I have a feeling the Dynaudio MW172 at 3" deep may be a bit too deep. I'll double check my clearance and report back. If they do fit, these look VERY interesting.

And regarding budget, I can go as high as $1,000 "all in" for all four speakers.


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## bradesp (Feb 21, 2009)

I suppose I could down-size the mid-woofer to 6.5"... but I'm worried I'll give up much needed lower end... I have NO room in the miata for even a small sub-woofer, so I'm assuming an 8" is the better "compromise" if I want to maintain some low-end "thump"


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## TomT (May 19, 2005)

How much power are you feeding the midbasses?


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## bradesp (Feb 21, 2009)

I'm providing 260Watts at 4ohms, 130watts at 8ohms using a SoundStream 4 channel Class D amp.. I'm bridging the two channels supply power two the two woofers.

I'm using the exact same amp, bridged in the same way to supply similar power to the tweeters.

PN4.520D | Soundstream




TomT said:


> How much power are you feeding the midbasses?


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

bradesp said:


> BTW, while I said I have plenty of room in my doors for the woofers, I have a feeling the Dynaudio MW172 at 3" deep may be a bit too deep. I'll double check my clearance and report back. If they do fit, these look VERY interesting.
> 
> And regarding budget, I can go as high as $1,000 "all in" for all four speakers.


If 3" may be too deep, then what Dayton 8" are you running?


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

What about the Stereo Integrity mids and tweeters? I've heard from quite a few people that they have very impressive midbass and seem to mate up well with that tweeter.


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## TomT (May 19, 2005)

bradesp said:


> I'm providing 260Watts at 4ohms, 130watts at 8ohms using a SoundStream 4 channel Class D amp.. I'm bridging the two channels supply power two the two woofers.
> 
> I'm using the exact same amp, bridged in the same way to supply similar power to the tweeters.
> 
> PN4.520D | Soundstream


With that amount of power at 4 ohms you have lots of options. I'm partial to the Audio Development ESA Bass 6.5s which are what I run. With 250w they will play extremely clean and they definitely can get low.

You haven't mentioned your subs, how low are you wanting the doors to play?


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Please mention price when suggesting $1500 mid bass


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## Vx220 (Nov 30, 2015)

Could we see a pic of your whisper mounting? Thinking of something similar in an MRS/MR2 Roadster. Also, where do you cross the whisper?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

After modeling a ton of different 8" woofers, without a subwoofer to reinforce the bottom end, my "go to" would be the Illusion Audio C8-W. Of course, if you were to buy brand new at $800 retail, that eats up the lion's share of your $1,000 budget. You might find a local dealer to make you a better deal, or find someone looking to sell some gently used C8s. (A pair sold recently for $600 on Facebook.) 

I would pair those with something like a C3CX passive if you can't get really on axis, or a full range/wideband driver like the AP NZ3ALBE, or Ram 2. Just keep in mind that a smaller diameter driver would likely need to be crossed higher (as previously mentioned) to maintain higher listening levels without getting stressed.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

rton20s said:


> After modeling a ton of different 8" woofers, without a subwoofer to reinforce the bottom end, my "go to" would be the Illusion Audio C8-W. Of course, if you were to buy brand new at $800 retail, that eats up the lion's share of your $1,000 budget. You might find a local dealer to make you a better deal, or find someone looking to sell some gently used C8s. (A pair sold recently for $600 on Facebook.)
> 
> I would pair those with something like a C3CX passive if you can't get really on axis, or a full range/wideband driver like the AP NZ3ALBE, or Ram 2. Just keep in mind that a smaller diameter driver would likely need to be crossed higher (as previously mentioned) to maintain higher listening levels without getting stressed.


What other 8's did you model?


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## bradesp (Feb 21, 2009)

Mea Culpa! I've had a senior moment... I just checked my original purchase list of materials and discovered that the 8" woofer is a Peerless SLS 8...it's 100mm deep, so I clearly have room for a 3" deep woofer.. in fact the Peerless is 3.8" deep.

Regarding budget, If it really makes the difference between smooth/unstrained music and shrill, I'm willing to push the budget to $1,500.

Don't know if it matters, but bear in mind that I also am using the Audison Bit Ten DSP unit to control EQ and cross-over.

Lastly, several have asked about EQ crossover... right now it's in the 400-500hz range.


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## bradesp (Feb 21, 2009)

You bet... I'll take and post a pic of my A-Pillar Tweeter Pods tomorrow.



Vx220 said:


> Could we see a pic of your whisper mounting? Thinking of something similar in an MRS/MR2 Roadster. Also, where do you cross the whisper?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

bassfromspace said:


> What other 8's did you model?


Might be easier to list those I didn't model.  But, here are 8" midbasses I know that I have modeled. There were probably more (including some shallow "subwoofers").

Illusion C8-W
JL ZR800-CW
Audio Development W800 Neo
Stevens Audio MB8-2
Dayton DC200-8
Dayton RS225-4
Dayton RS225P-4
Silverflute W20RC38-4
FaitalPRO 8FE200
Beyma BR40/N
PRV 8MB500-NDY
Scanspeak 22W/4534G-00
Morel MW 266-8
Morel MW 266-4
Satori MW19P-4
Audison AP 8


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## bradesp (Feb 21, 2009)

The C3CX look like the most frequently recommended wide-bander, but I do have a question. Why are most of the recommendations accompanied with advice to run it "passive" ? Is there a disadvantage of some kind in running this speaker with active cross-over in a two way setup?


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Hmmm.... 400-500hz is going to be a stretch for most small drivers 2.5" and under at higher volumes. That SLS 8" is a pretty stout driver. Graph shows it dropping off at 850hz. Don't know about real world, but if it can play that high should be no problem finding something that can take off from 600-800hz.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

bradesp said:


> The C3CX look like the most frequently recommended wide-bander, but I do have a question. Why are most of the recommendations accompanied with advice to run it "passive" ? Is there a disadvantage of some kind in running this speaker with active cross-over in a two way setup?


No. The C3CX is not a wideband driver. The C3CX is a coincident mount (coaxial driver). Most call it a "point source" but some would argue that based on tweeter position and transition to the mid's cone. The advantage to a driver like the C3CX over a wideband driver is that you are dealing with the beaming of a 14mm dome tweeter rather than a 3" cone driver on the top end. That means you can run the driver more "off axis" than you can most wideband/full range drivers. 

The recommendation for passive, probably stems from the fact that you list 2-Way and we all assumed you are running subwoofers. But, if you have 6 channels of amplification and no subwoofers, the Bit.Ten should allow you to actively process the C3CX tweeter, midrange and C8-W (or other) midbass independently. That is the route I would take with a simple cap on the tweeter for protection.


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## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

Bayboy said:


> Hmmm.... 400-500hz is going to be a stretch for most small drivers 2.5" and under at higher volumes. That SLS 8" is a pretty stout driver. Graph shows it dropping off at 850hz. Don't know about real world, but if it can play that high should be no problem finding something that can take off from 600-800hz.


From what I can remember, I think it was “captainobvious” who used the SLS8 as dedicated midbass and recommended keeping them under 400Hz. There is his thread in the Reviews forum about them. I think it’s a couple years old now.


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## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...risons/43235-peerless-sls-8-quick-review.html

Found it


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## Vx220 (Nov 30, 2015)

bradesp said:


> You bet... I'll take and post a pic of my A-Pillar Tweeter Pods tomorrow.


Cheers


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## jowens500 (Sep 5, 2008)

You could also use the Stevens Audio MB8. They are designed to match with his horns, but would work fine in this application too. Another plus for them is price, $200 a pair.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Those MB8 will go low?


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## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

Bayboy said:


> Those MB8 will go low?


From what Eric says, they should. I got mine installed yesterday, and with a little listening at lower to medium volume, they took a 63Hz HP @24 dB without flinching. And, that’s with having maybe 20 minutes playing time on them. I’m sure they’ll be even better after about 10 hours.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Low? Depends on your definition. Subless? Not a chance. Eric might say otherwise (I doubt it), but when I modeled the MB8-2 with any kind of power, you needed a higher crossover. They are dedicated midbasses, not at all intended for sub-bass from what I can tell.


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## jowens500 (Sep 5, 2008)

Yeah, they won't play low enough to go subless. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T377A using Tapatalk


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

rton20s said:


> Low? Depends on your definition. Subless? Not a chance. Eric might say otherwise (I doubt it), but when I modeled the MB8-2 with any kind of power, you needed a higher crossover. They are dedicated midbasses, not at all intended for sub-bass from what I can tell.




That's what I figured. I think the lowest Eric suggests is 60hz @ -24, but also states that it is a sacrifice at that point.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

One other option that you may want to look into for the 8s is using a high quality 8" shallow subwoofer. BUT, if you're even going to consider it, know that you are going to have to put some serious work into the doors. Dead and sealed like nothing else. Or better yet, sealed or vented door enclosures. Also understand that many of the shallow "subwoofers" are more like oversized and under-performing midbasses. Especially in the 8" variety. 

If this sounds like something you would consider tackling, I would take a look at subs like the Audiomobile Elite 2208 and Image Dynamics IDQS8. If you do this, depending on the sub, you're most likely going to need something up top that can dig pretty deep.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

rton20s said:


> One other option...
> 
> If this sounds like something you would consider tackling, I would take a look at subs like the Audiomobile Elite 2208 and Image Dynamics IDQS8. If you do this, depending on the sub, you're most likely going to need something up top that can dig pretty deep.


The scanspeak Wu18 is only 7" but says it has an F(3) of 70-Hz in a sealed box and 40 Hz in a ported box. (I did sealed.)


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## bradesp (Feb 21, 2009)

Thanks guys for all the helpful guidance... right now the Illusion Audio 8” mid bass and the C3CX 3” are the combo I plan to pursue... I may have to wait awhile... there don’t appear to be very many that go up for sale.


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

I had good results with Hybrid L8’s and L1 Pros in one of my past trucks.


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## bradesp (Feb 21, 2009)

I just looked at the spec sheet on the C3CX and it looks to be a coax speaker.. a mid range and tweeter... how did I miss this detail? Won’t that mean I can’t use my helix dsp to drive my system as a true 2 way... using the C8 mid bass and C3CX up on the pillars.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

bradesp said:


> I just looked at the spec sheet on the C3CX and it looks to be a coax speaker.. a mid range and tweeter... how did I miss this detail? Won’t that mean I can’t use my helix dsp to drive my system as a true 2 way... using the C8 mid bass and C3CX up on the pillars.


The C3CX being coax/pointsource, is exactly why it's being recommended. You will have a hell of a time finding a tweeter that will play low enough, and you'll have a hell of a time finding a midrange that will play high enough. The C3CX will cover that entire frequency range. You don't need to have separate channels for the mid and tweet since they don't need separate processing. You don't need to TA them, you won't need a crossover for both. Essentially, the C3CX gives you a bigger range than you'll get with any wideband speaker.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Just as gijoe said. You can still use the C3CX in a "2 way" with the C8s. You'll just need to make use of the C3CX passive crossovers. If you have additional processing and amplification channels available, then you can run them fully active with each of the tweeters processed and driven independently from the mids.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

rton20s said:


> Just as gijoe said. You can still use the C3CX in a "2 way" with the C8s. You'll just need to make use of the C3CX passive crossovers. If you have additional processing and amplification channels available, then you can run them fully active with each of the tweeters processed and driven independently from the mids.


I like the idea of active. But unless one already has extra channels on the amp, then running passive like GIJoe suggested seems the way to go. IMO.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Holmz said:


> I like the idea of active. But unless one already has extra channels on the amp, then running passive like GIJoe suggested seems the way to go. IMO.


Isn't that literally what I posted? In the post you quoted, no less?



rton20s said:


> Just as gijoe said. You can still use the C3CX in a "2 way" with the C8s. You'll just need to make use of the C3CX passive crossovers. If you have additional processing and amplification channels available, then you can run them fully active with each of the tweeters processed and driven independently from the mids.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

rton20s said:


> Isn't that literally what I posted? In the post you quoted, no less?


Yeah, and it is why I quoted it.
GI Joe also said something I agreed with.

Sometime if it gets said via two channels It will seem like they hear it inside their head. 

Basically I could,not agree with you more.

If you want an argument then go ahead and post something moronic. But I have noticed that you usually do not... so I am left to argeeing with you.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Holmz said:


> If you want an argument then go ahead and post something moronic. But I have noticed that you usually do not... so I am left to argeeing with you.


Oh, I say plenty of moronic things. Just ask my wife...


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Brother my wife also agrees with your's, as my wife's husband is a moron.

(So I am two for two.)


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

jowens500 said:


> You could also use the Stevens Audio MB8. They are designed to match with his horns, but would work fine in this application too. Another plus for them is price, $200 a pair.


They would work if getting to 60 Hz will make you happy. I would go ported if I was going to do it which will increase the low end performance.

All depends on how oud you want it on best way to proceed. If you want to have loud clear music at speed with the top down you will have to sacrifice some low end and go with higher sensitivity so you have the volume needed in which case the MB8 might be candidate. If you listen with the top up mostly and are after 8" 2-way monitor type of sound you need an 86 to 88 dB 1w/1m type driver that will play cleanly to 2500 Hz or higher and pair it with a good tweeter.


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## Vx220 (Nov 30, 2015)

bradesp said:


> You bet... I'll take and post a pic of my A-Pillar Tweeter Pods tomorrow.


Did you get the chance to take a pic?


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