# Why oh why did I ever use tweeters and mids?



## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

Start off... I've used and heard lots of mids and tweeters, tried more than a few combinations including DLS iridiums, Seas W180NX, BG NEO3's etc and never really been happy with the results... phase issues that time alignment can't fix, roaming frequency dependant imaging, the infamous rainbow effect, some weird reverse rainbow effect, etc. 

fast forward to last week... I decided to throw the Fostex FF85k 3 inch full range drivers that I bought almost a year ago onto my dash, just wrapped in a towel until I decide if I'm going to use them permenantly. so I fired up my EPX2, crossed things over so that my Seas W180NX's are playing midbass duty, and even got rid of my in-dash DVD in favour of my denford 8240....

So far I'm far more impressed with the quality of the sound than I thought I would be, Very detailed, with great high end, I think the high end will be tamed a little once I put them in an enclosure, but even the way they are, they kick complete ass.... I'm super impressed. The staging is rock solid and very coherent all over the frequency range.

I don't think I'll ever go back to mids and tweeters again.


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## dejo (Jan 3, 2006)

I made a set of t-lines with the fe106 and really liked them too. but for home audio


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Did you try mounting your tweets right next to your mids? Either way glad you found what works for you


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## bLG (May 1, 2009)

Seas has their exotic line of FR, nothing that small yet, I've seen them but no demo yet. 
Anyways, thanks for sharing and good luck with final enclosure build.


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

This is the PDF on the drivers... they're crossed over around 220 right now
http://www.solen.ca/pdf/fostex/ff85k.pdf


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## bLG (May 1, 2009)

I like the driver but... 20 mm is really a 3/4" vc and power handling seems a little low. Did you have any troubles cranking it up?


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

gets more than loud enough for anything close to reasonable listening levels. have you ever actually measured the power you're putting to your speakers? I have, and it was less than 1/4 of a volt, which into 4 ohms = 1 amp, times 1/4 = 1 watt.... 1 watt at a fairly loud volume.
,


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## bLG (May 1, 2009)

i'm in your camp, but some folks like to go beyond pain...


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

bLG said:


> i'm in your camp, but some folks like to go beyond pain...


I like to fill the cabin with low distortion sound where it's clean enough you don't realize how loud it is until you try to hear yourself talk. Takes a helluva nice response to prevent ear fatigue at really high volume.


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## bLG (May 1, 2009)

--assuming your ride is quiet to begin with... nice philosophy


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

bLG said:


> --assuming your ride is quiet to begin with... nice philosophy


I run allterrain tires on my truck so it's far from quiet while moving. Sitting still is when I do 90% of my listening


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Full-Range seems like the most logic way to go for the best staging and the easiest tuning.

At wich frequency do you cross those Fostex's? 
I'm going the FR way too and I've looked for 3" ones too, including Fostex's, but they all seam to have a very low x-max starting at less than half a millimeter and ending at barely one millimeter, wich is quite low I think.
I ended up checking 4" drivers. Most of them have a higher x-max *and* the cone area is bigger too, while there are still some nice 4" drivers out there that are able to play high without needing a tweeter. 

I haven't order mine yet, but unless something or somebody is able to confuse me a lot, I'll probably go with the titanium cone TangBand W4-1337's. According to WinISD, I can easily cross them as low as 125Hz with 45W a piece on them without bottoming them out (3mm x-max).
I'll probably end up crossing them somewhere around 200Hz (no need to let a driver reach it's x-max by crossing low when you want nice top-end response from the same driver) Linkwitz-Riley 18dB/oct (using an AudioControl 4XS).


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

I crossed the fostex's at 220 Hz, then midbass from 220 - 80, I'll probly lower that to 60 or so, and then sub below that. I'm constantly impressed by these.


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## J0ne (Aug 7, 2007)

Im going to run Midbass and full range too...have not decided on the driver.


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

give the fostex a serious look man... for the price, they're pretty amazing, even for more than double the price they're pretty amazing...


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## J0ne (Aug 7, 2007)

Sassmastersq said:


> give the fostex a serious look man... for the price, they're pretty amazing, even for more than double the price they're pretty amazing...


as previously asked, have you placed the drivers in the door near the midbass?

I wont place 3" driver\enclosure on my dash.


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

What about using an Coax instead of a Fullrange...


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## Infinity (Jun 28, 2005)

Megalomaniac said:


> What about using an Coax instead of a Fullrange...


That's actually my preferred setup- well, pointsource at least. It's tough to find high quality coax's at times


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

J0ne said:


> as previously asked, have you placed the drivers in the door near the midbass?
> 
> I wont place 3" driver\enclosure on my dash.



I havn't tried it, but as long as you can give the full range a seperate enclosure so that the VBA from the midbass won't overdrive it and thrash teh cone, it should be fine.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

I'm going to be doing the same thing, sort of. I'm going to run 8" midbass and decided that a normal 2 way won't cut it. I'm a little nervous that a full range won't have enough highend detail, so I'm looking at the Tang Band 3" point source coaxial.

I should say though though that my stock stereo in my Magnum has 3.5" full range in the dash, and 6x9" woofers in the door and rear hatch area, and the high end is decent, and I'm sure the stock Boston Acoustics don't measure very well, even though they sound ok so I can see where an actual good full range could satisfy in the high frequency department.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

The Fostex FF85s are the best 3 inch driver IMO. They do come at a cost of low end, but with a quality midbass driver this is a non-issue. Better then several I have personally owned, Including A few Tang Bands (including the 871), the Hivi B3S, Dayton RS100, and probably a few random ones I forgot...

The RS100 is the only one that really comes close, but still doesnt have the top end that the FF85s do. They literally sound like a mid-quality tweeter in the higher octaves.

Currently I run the dual RS100s in the kicks in a 1.5 way. No immediate need for EQ on the top end. And in sealed enclosures they easily have extension down to 150hz, and ~110hz with EQ. The cone movement is very controlled in sealed pods. As you might have guessed, I don't use midbass drivers with these. I let the IDQs do the work  This was originally intended as a temp setup since I don't have the time to do something right, but I am enjoying it quite a bit. I may add some tweeters in the higher octaves and go two way, but with a higher crossover point than normal.


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## cd300 (Mar 25, 2009)

"That's actually my preferred setup- well, pointsource at least. It's tough to find high quality coax's at times "

I run the Morel Integra Ovation xo's and they are the best speaker I have EVER used!! Low end is excellent, I just wish I had a tad more power on 'em instead of 50 rms . I have come to the conclusion that sometimes less is better and my current setup of the morel's, 1 10" sub, and 1 amp is much easier on the mind 

Chris


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## niceguy (Mar 12, 2006)

That sounds like a great little setup....I've been wanting to try a 2way for a few years now w/a small full range. In fact, I was contemplating the HiVi and TB 3"ers but due to lack of time haven't pulled it off. I'm still running some NorthCreek large format (4") tweets in dash. 

Sorry if I missed it but how much do the Fostex drivers run? I don't need or like ear piercing highs but would like to know cymbals,etc are being used when present in a track...

Pics?

Jeremy


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

niceguy said:


> That sounds like a great little setup....I've been wanting to try a 2way for a few years now w/a small full range. In fact, I was contemplating the HiVi and TB 3"ers but due to lack of time haven't pulled it off. I'm still running some NorthCreek large format (4") tweets in dash.
> 
> Sorry if I missed it but how much do the Fostex drivers run? I don't need or like ear piercing highs but would like to know cymbals,etc are being used when present in a track...
> 
> ...


Fostex FF85K 3" Full Range from Madisound

Quite a bargain IMO. I am running them in a home setup BTW. Open baffle spoils me rotten. Now the car is completely unacceptable


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

cd300 said:


> "That's actually my preferred setup- well, pointsource at least. It's tough to find high quality coax's at times "
> 
> I run the Morel Integra Ovation xo's and they are the best speaker I have EVER used!! Low end is excellent, I just wish I had a tad more power on 'em instead of 50 rms . I have come to the conclusion that sometimes less is better and my current setup of the morel's, 1 10" sub, and 1 amp is much easier on the mind
> 
> Chris


I very seriously looked at those morels, but I just couldn't bring myself to put them where I'm going to put these fostex (inside a sealed A pillar cabinet)


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## bLG (May 1, 2009)

This Tymphany FR 2.5" driver is pretty sweet, except for lowish sensitivity; give it a listen (I have-- now I need to go listen to Fostex...)

http://www.tymphany.com/files/products/pdf/830985.pdf


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## monkeybutt (Oct 1, 2005)

Fast1one said:


> Fostex FF85K 3" Full Range from Madisound
> 
> Quite a bargain IMO. I am running them in a home setup BTW. Open baffle spoils me rotten. Now the car is completely unacceptable


Hey Serg I think I can shoehorn those into my kicks. How does the high end detail sound on and maybe 30 degrees off axis?


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

monkeybutt said:


> Hey Serg I think I can shoehorn those into my kicks. How does the high end detail sound on and maybe 30 degrees off axis?


The detail is very good at the listening position, which equates to 30 degrees off axis (actually a bit less, they are toed in slightly). Doesn't really suffer much, if at all when compared to on axis under normal listening (music) conditions.

BTW, I forgot to mention the IDQs are playing and playing SOOO sweet. They are currently playing at an "unorthodox" 125hz crossover point. Blend extremely well with the front stage.


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## monkeybutt (Oct 1, 2005)

Fast1one said:


> The detail is very good at the listening position, which equates to 30 degrees off axis (actually a bit less, they are toed in slightly). Doesn't really suffer much, if at all when compared to on axis under normal listening (music) conditions.
> 
> BTW, I forgot to mention the IDQs are playing and playing SOOO sweet. They are currently playing at an "unorthodox" 125hz crossover point. Blend extremely well with the front stage.


Those FR Fostex sound very interesting for the car. Haven't had one since I ran some in a horn loaded system on a SET amp for home. Glad to hear you are enjoying the IDQs. Playing up a bit higher was one area that the 10s were a better than the 12.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Sassmastersq said:


> I havn't tried it, but as long as you can give the full range a seperate enclosure so that the VBA from the midbass won't overdrive it and thrash teh cone, it should be fine.


Yeah that VBA is a killer.


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> Yeah that VBA is a killer.


Actually, this is a very efficient driver with 1.1 mm of total excursion, the back pressure caused by even a modest midbass driver in the same cabinet would damage the suspension and ruin the accuracy of the speaker.


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## bLG (May 1, 2009)

the efficiency of this drive unit makes it pretty special


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

After seeing your open baffles I'm actually considering some type of open baffle A pillar arrangement. This could get interesting!


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

cd300 said:


> "That's actually my preferred setup- well, pointsource at least. It's tough to find high quality coax's at times "
> 
> I run the Morel Integra Ovation xo's and they are the best speaker I have EVER used!! Low end is excellent, I just wish I had a tad more power on 'em instead of 50 rms . I have come to the conclusion that sometimes less is better and my current setup of the morel's, 1 10" sub, and 1 amp is much easier on the mind
> 
> Chris


Do these have seperate speaker inputs for tweeter & mid?


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

Sassmastersq said:


> After seeing your open baffles I'm actually considering some type of open baffle A pillar arrangement. This could get interesting!


I considered it, but it would sound terrible with the early reflections. Need a lot more room from the nearest wall. 1/2 meter is bare minimum, Over 1m is optimal. 

Closest thing you can do is an aperiodic (sp?) enclosure.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Fast1one said:


> The Fostex FF85s are the best 3 inch driver IMO. They do come at a cost of low end, but with a quality midbass driver this is a non-issue. Better then several I have personally owned, Including A few Tang Bands (including the 871), the Hivi B3S, Dayton RS100, and probably a few random ones I forgot...
> 
> The RS100 is the only one that really comes close, but still doesnt have the top end that the FF85s do. They literally sound like a mid-quality tweeter in the higher octaves.
> 
> Currently I run the dual RS100s in the kicks in a 1.5 way. No immediate need for EQ on the top end. And in sealed enclosures they easily have extension down to 150hz, and ~110hz with EQ. The cone movement is very controlled in sealed pods. As you might have guessed, I don't use midbass drivers with these. I let the IDQs do the work  This was originally intended as a temp setup since I don't have the time to do something right, but I am enjoying it quite a bit. I may add some tweeters in the higher octaves and go two way, but with a higher crossover point than normal.


Hmmm interesting. 

I wonder how these

Fountek FR88-EX 3" Full Range from Madisound

would compare to the FF85's. I have been looking at them for sometime now, even before Madisound had them.

Looks like its time for me to do anther small driver test with the:

Fostex FF85
Fountek FR88-EX
Dayton RS100
Peerless 830986/87 (my favorite small affordable driver and they are really affordable now.)


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

A while back a guy told me to try the 3" Fostex, I figured I could run some tiny tweeter way high only if I needed to and a 7-8" midbass up to ~300Hz. But, I had put a set of ancient kenwood 4" comps in this car and thought why get 3s. Actually might go back or get 3s because the boston comps are not working as well in this car as the k-woods did. The 4" and tweeter made a sweet stage but no midbass by themselves so if I use them I'd have to solve that issue....but the 3s leave you some room to do a midbass even if I had to pod mount the 3 was my thoughts. Then I could aim them really nicely, and that would be the only thing exposed maybe a kick or semi-underdash mount. Then run 15s up to 40-50Hz IB, and if an 8 would work with the 3s I'd have some good midbass. The guy said aiming would be an issue with them if you wanted no tweeter, but I don't like a strong tweeter anyway.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

I never tried the Pearless, would be interesting indeed. 

The FF85K is the only one that I know of that can be considered a true tweeter, with the dust cap attached directly onto the voice coil. Dave at Planet 10 called it a "Tweeter with a really big cone area" and I think that description pretty much sums these up. Obviously, you can't beat physics and the off exis response will suffer. However, it really is not bad at all if you keep it at under ~30-45 degrees and I suspect this is due to the rising response in the upper octaves. 



Here-I-Come said:


> Hmmm interesting.
> 
> I wonder how these
> 
> ...


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

actually, I've got mine sitting at nearly 90 degrees off axis, and they sound great, the only EQing I've done is straight off the fostex FR graph to even out the response.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Sassmastersq said:


> gets more than loud enough for anything close to reasonable listening levels. have you ever actually measured the power you're putting to your speakers? I have, and it was less than 1/4 of a volt, which into 4 ohms = 1 amp, times 1/4 = 1 watt.... 1 watt at a fairly loud volume.
> ,


They would have to be very loud at 1watt cuz 5w is all they are rated for. It's pretty obvious you would get better imagining compared to a 2 way and if that's what ranks higher on you list than it's the way to go. 

To say if you want more you like pain it's a bit ridiculous, there is no way in heck you'd get even within 5 db of 100db with this driver even crossed as high as 200hz and not get a ridiculous amount of distortion.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> They would have to be very loud at 1watt cuz 5w is all they are rated for. It's pretty obvious you would get better imagining compared to a 2 way and if that's what ranks higher on you list than it's the way to go.
> 
> To say if you want more you like pain it's a bit ridiculous, there is no way in heck you'd get even within 5 db of 100db with this driver even crossed as high as 200hz and not get a ridiculous amount of distortion.


200hz is too low with this driver. I have a highpass of 320hz and excursion is very limited (fraction of a mm, barely see it) even in open baffle and ~40-50watts per side. In a sealed configuration, 250hz is the lowest I would go since you run out of response anyway below that point. They get PLENTY loud... You have to understand, 5 watt is the MECHANICAL power limit, not thermal.

As a side note, some people on this board need to start to take care of their hearing. 100db average is QUITE loud for anything more than 1-2 hours per day. I would venture to say less time would be suggestible. Invest in some barrier products and turn it DOWN 

http://www.diracdelta.co.uk/science/source/n/o/noise exposure limits/source.html

The top table reflects the OSHA standards, while the lower table is suggestions.


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## monkeybutt (Oct 1, 2005)

Fast1one said:


> As a side note, some people on this board need to start to take care of their hearing. 100db average is QUITE loud for anything more than 1-2 hours per day. I would venture to say less time would be suggestible. Invest in some barrier products and turn it DOWN
> 
> Noise Exposure Limits - DiracDelta Science & Engineering Encyclopedia
> 
> The top table reflects the OSHA standards, while the lower table is suggestions.


Hear, hear. I guess extreme volume goes w/ the hobby. I do tend to listen to my car systems a lot louder than my home stuff. However, the rare times that I do go to hear stuff at the car audio stores whether on the board or in a vehicle invariably the demo is done at near painful levels which I ask to have lowered or just duck out of. Guys who have been at this game for a while commonly seem to have high frequency sensitivity loss as the treble is often overemphasized and bright.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

monkeybutt said:


> Hear, hear. I guess extreme volume goes w/ the hobby. I do tend to listen to my car systems a lot louder than my home stuff. However, the rare times that I do go to hear stuff at the car audio stores whether on the board or in a vehicle invariably the demo is done at near painful levels which I ask to have lowered or just duck out of. Guys who have been at this game for a while commonly seem to have high frequency sensitivity loss as the treble is often overemphasized and bright.


Theres nothing wrong with cranking it, as long as it is done responsibly and care is taken to limit those loud passages on a daily basis...

The loss of high frequencies just comes with age. Imagine, when we reach our mid life crises, up to one or more octave will be lost forever


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

Well if you listen to dynamic music, it isn't going to go much above 100db for long ass periods of time. If you listen to highly compressed electronic or "modern" music with 110db peaks you may have to be worried since you'll be listening at a constant 104db (ish).

Lesson: listen to some dynamic music and crank it!


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Exactly! You get some good music on the road and you will want to crank it every now and then. A well recorded song played at an average of 95db which is what I often do will have peaks that sometimes extend out to 110db. If your driver is mechanically limited at 95db every exciting moment of the recording is going to sound like ass: half of the time you'll be outside linear output. 

My hearing is well within normal bounds, I got it checked at the end of last year


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

br85 said:


> Well if you listen to dynamic music, it isn't going to go much above 100db for long ass periods of time. If you listen to highly compressed electronic or "modern" music with 110db peaks you may have to be worried since you'll be listening at a constant 104db (ish).
> 
> Lesson: listen to some dynamic music and crank it!


Yeah but the post specifically said 100db, so I am assuming he meant AVERAGE SPL, not peaks  I don't listen to modern music so much... very selective. A lot of 90s, some 80s, lots of 60s 



cvjoint said:


> Exactly! You get some good music on the road and you will want to crank it every now and then. A well recorded song played at an average of 95db which is what I often do will have peaks that sometimes extend out to 110db. If your driver is mechanically limited at 95db every exciting moment of the recording is going to sound like ass: half of the time you'll be outside linear output.
> 
> My hearing is well within normal bounds, I got it checked at the end of last year


You are missing the point. The driver is mechanically limited at 5 watts WITH NO CROSSOVER. Trust me, I have PLENTY of dynamics crossed at 325hz, and its not even enclosed. It doesn't MOVE. Listening to Eric Clapton Unplugged right now


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## monkeybutt (Oct 1, 2005)

Fast1one said:


> Theres nothing wrong with cranking it, as long as it is done responsibly and care is taken to limit those loud passages on a daily basis...
> 
> The loss of high frequencies just comes with age. Imagine, when we reach our mid life crises, up to one or more octave will be lost forever


Actually age-related hearing loss or presbycusis occurs in 30 to 35% of persons 65 to 75 yrs of age of which high frequency sensitivity is ususally earliest affected. Of the people within this group hearing loss can start from the age of 20 or so.
Noise induced hearing loss (NIHL) can occur in a short period of time. If permanent hearing damage can occur after one exposure of 7.5 minutes at a 103db volume, 'cranking it' may needs be clearly defined for safety.
Dangerous Decibels: About Hearing Loss
Anyone listen at live levels in their car? Try 110 to 120db for a typical rock concert.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

monkeybutt said:


> Actually age-related hearing loss or presbycusis occurs in 30 to 35% of persons 65 to 75 yrs of age of which high frequency sensitivity is ususally earliest affected. Of the people within this group hearing loss can start from the age of 20 or so.
> Noise induced hearing loss (NIHL) can occur in a short period of time. If permanent hearing damage can occur after one exposure of 7.5 minutes at a 103db volume, 'cranking it' may needs be clearly defined for safety.
> Dangerous Decibels: About Hearing Loss
> Anyone listen at live levels in their car? Try 110 to 120db for a typical rock concert.


Nice link 

I hear you man, or wait what? :laugh:

I wear ear protection to concerts now...


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

Rock concerts can be a problem, but again, unless there are distorted guitars droning on above 100db, most of the really loud stuff is transients that last for a fraction of a second. Were this not the case, most people who have ever been to a rock concert without earplgs should be almost permanently deaf.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

br85 said:


> Rock concerts can be a problem, but again, unless there are distorted guitars droning on above 100db, most of the really loud stuff is transients that last for a fraction of a second. Were this not the case, most people who have ever been to a rock concert without earplgs should be almost permanently deaf.


Yes of course, but answer me this: Do you ever exit a 2+ hour rock concert and have ringing ears? I know I did, nearly every time. That my friend, is minor hearing loss  I go to a LOT of concerts, if I didn't wear ear protection I would definitely have hearing loss. Deaf? Of course not, but hearing loss nonetheless


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Fast1one said:


> Yeah but the post specifically said 100db, so I am assuming he meant AVERAGE SPL, not peaks  I don't listen to modern music so much... very selective. A lot of 90s, some 80s, lots of 60s
> 
> 
> You are missing the point. The driver is mechanically limited at 5 watts WITH NO CROSSOVER. Trust me, I have PLENTY of dynamics crossed at 325hz, and its not even enclosed. It doesn't MOVE. Listening to Eric Clapton Unplugged right now


Ha ha well that's probably why you can't see it moving. BTW I think at 5 watts 20hz it may last continuous but I doubt it's linear output. Anyway different strokes for different folks. With the right material and preferences you can use tweeters full range and get perfect imaging. 

I retain my position that dynamic music that's well engineered requires more mechanical output since transients are not likely to overheat the coil but will max out the suspension, even create damage at fairly low average output levels. 'Modern' music is likely to cause thermal damage more so than mechanical, especially since dynamic peaks are tame and expected you would have time to back off the volume if the coil starts to smell. With good music you want beefier setups to handle the short term mechanical demands.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> Ha ha well that's probably why you can't see it moving. BTW I think at 5 watts 20hz it may last continuous but I doubt it's linear output. Anyway different strokes for different folks. With the right material and preferences you can use tweeters full range and get perfect imaging.
> 
> I retain my position that dynamic music that's well engineered requires more mechanical output since transients are not likely to overheat the coil but will max out the suspension, even create damage at fairly low average output levels. 'Modern' music is likely to cause thermal damage more so than mechanical, especially since dynamic peaks are tame and expected you would have time to back off the volume if the coil starts to smell. With good music you want beefier setups to handle the short term mechanical demands.


You're missing the point. He's crossed at 320hz so he can probably send 50-75 watts to the fostex mids and still be linear. I have a pair of tweeters in my home setup that are rated at 10 watts FULLRANGE. If you think about it that's pretty impressive. I'll bet money they could cause permanent hearing damage even at the low 2khz crossover point LONG BEFORE the coil starts to smellSame thing goes for a midbass. For someone that listens to music above 80db a 6.5" mid has no business being crossed below 80hz. Sure you can get high output out of a 6.5" mid crossed fullrange but it's not going to sound good. I know you already know this considering you run large midbass drivers but you're acting like you don't know squat about fullrange power ratings, small cones and tweeters


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> You're missing the point. He's crossed at 320hz so he can probably send 50-75 watts to the fostex mids and still be linear. I have a pair of tweeters in my home setup that are rated at 10 watts FULLRANGE. If you think about it that's pretty impressive. I'll bet money they could cause permanent hearing damage even at the low 2khz crossover point LONG BEFORE the coil starts to smellSame thing goes for a midbass. For someone that listens to music above 80db a 6.5" mid has no business being crossed below 80hz. Sure you can get high output out of a 6.5" mid crossed fullrange but it's not going to sound good. I know you already know this considering you run large midbass drivers but you're acting like you don't know squat about fullrange power ratings, small cones and tweeters


Thank you, some one is getting it


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## kappa546 (Apr 11, 2005)

Fast1one said:


> I never tried the Pearless, would be interesting indeed.
> 
> The FF85K is the only one that I know of that can be considered a true tweeter, with the dust cap attached directly onto the voice coil. Dave at Planet 10 called it a "Tweeter with a really big cone area" and I think that description pretty much sums these up. Obviously, you can't beat physics and the off exis response will suffer. However, it really is not bad at all if you keep it at under ~30-45 degrees and I suspect this is due to the rising response in the upper octaves.


Actually, most of the peerless have the VC attached to the dustcap as well.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

I could care less about paper statistics...yes they have their merit, but until you put it in YOUR environment AND listen, what is the point. I have my 3's crossed at 160hz 24db slope. They barely move full tilt. Many people ask why I cross them so low. I ask them where they thought they were crossed? They normally don't have an answer.

And by the way, Cvjoint does'nt run small cone drivers, and never has since I've known him. His car sounds fantastic too


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

BigRed said:


> I could care less about paper statistics...yes they have their merit, but until you put it in YOUR environment AND listen, what is the point. I have my 3's crossed at 160hz 24db slope. They barely move full tilt. Many people ask why I cross them so low. I ask them where they thought they were crossed? They normally don't have an answer.
> 
> And by the way, Cvjoint does'nt run small cone drivers, and never has since I've known him. His car sounds fantastic too


Total agree. Trust me I was a bit worried running them open baffle at first. They don't complain whatsoever..

Nothing wrong with running small or large drivers. Its the process that matters and knowing the limitations of each. 

In my car, I have my RS100s sealed crossed over at 125hz and they move about 1-2mm P-P with very loud passages. They sound great, image great, don't beam in the telephone band. Like the OP, I have no need to go back to a traditional 2 way with a large midbass driver again. Smaller drivers are just better straight out of the box. Sure you can get larger drivers to sound just as good, just gotta work a bit harder. You can't beat physics 



kappa546 said:


> Actually, most of the peerless have the VC attached to the dustcap as well.


Nice! You got my curiosity going now. I would love to see that 3 inch driver comparison fore mentioned.


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## kappa546 (Apr 11, 2005)

Fast1one said:


> Nice! You got my curiosity going now. I would love to see that 3 inch driver comparison fore mentioned.


Yea, actually your OB thread got me researching the fostex and when I found out they did too my first reaction was "Hmmm, cool just like my peerless"


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

hmmmmm sounds like we need to have a comparrison day... now everyone bring their drivers and come to canada for the event!


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Ok.. subscribed.. So, with an a-pillar location like the civic sedan (big triangular area that screams "put a baffle and a driver in there")... That's one consideration... 

A mid 6.5 in the door and a little 3" of some flavor up top. 

The extended reach of a FR driver over just a tweet would certainly let the mid-bass do it's thing without having to reach way up in 2.5k-3k land.

Here's a thought.. Nope I haven't searched yet.. I wonder if any amps would cross high enough actively with a FR + 6.5 mid? ...talk about ghetto budget active 2-way.  Looks like just 1 glance, the JL's only reach to 200hz, so I'm betting it'd be tough if you had to cross at like 400-500ish. Eh, it was a thought. PDX's 30 Hz - 400 Hz ...


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## aznboi3644 (Jan 25, 2009)

If you want lots of linear excursion from a 3" driver...a little pricey but I'd get them if I had the money.

Parts-Express.com:Audience A3 3" Full Range Driver | Audience A3 3" driver Full Range Driver tang band line source line array point source xbl motor jordan module clairaudient


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

as little as 1 dB compression at up to 95 dB? sounds like it needs to be in an array to work, single drivers wouldn't have the response to sound good.

I don't need 12mm of xmax when I've got a midbass my full range barely move.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

aznboi3644 said:


> If you want lots of linear excursion from a 3" driver...a little pricey but I'd get them if I had the money.
> 
> Parts-Express.com:Audience A3 3" Full Range Driver | Audience A3 3" driver Full Range Driver tang band line source line array point source xbl motor jordan module clairaudient


That's some driver.. googled and found their site (I think)..
audience : loudspeakers

... Impressive Line Array with I think that very driver.. NO crossover. 








Hmmm.. $2500 per side just in drivers and you could build these bad boys.
Read a review.. The drivers are from Bandor.. http://www.bandor.com/products_frame.htm


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

that's a lot of tiny drivers... interesting! might even sound good


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

aznboi3644 said:


> If you want lots of linear excursion from a 3" driver...a little pricey but I'd get them if I had the money.
> 
> Parts-Express.com:Audience A3 3" Full Range Driver | Audience A3 3" driver Full Range Driver tang band line source line array point source xbl motor jordan module clairaudient


Hmmm, interesting driver.


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## Pseudonym (Apr 17, 2006)

just spitballing a few ideas, but what do u guys think about a fostex 3, sls 8, zuki combo? could the fullrange really make me say farewell to tweeters? hows the mounting options with the full range speakers? can they be mounted ib or do they need their own sealed pods?


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## dkh (Apr 2, 2008)

Because you once had sense?

hehehehe only kidding - or maybe, you wanted to split the frequencies to a driver that was able to handle the said frequencies with any real control?

Not many drivers can handle the entire frequency range or even say 500 - 20k?

And, those that say they can can't handle any real volume?


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

That's my concern..

Which of any of these small "full-range" or rather "extended-range" drivers can reasonably fill in the roll as a tweeter "REPLACEMENT" that basically extends low enough to work in a sweet door mid-bass 2-way setup, but still have good detail and air up high without adding a small tweet with it?

Wouldn't necessarily need to be a 3" I'd think.. Madisound for example has Peerless, Aura's and Hi-Vi's in the 2" catagory as well, and I'm sure PE has tons of similar.. Tang-band for example.

Also, how much rocket science is required for enclosure for these I wonder to fill in mainly as a low-reaching tweet role, not worrying too much lower than that?


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Ok here is a teaser picture of my prototype Scanspeak 4.5" 13F Fullrange or extend-fullrange driver, I was talking about in my Fountek Cone Driver thread.










Yes, sir Double stacked magnets


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## Inferno333 (Mar 29, 2006)

What about the FR125 from CSS?

I might give that one a whirl.


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

dkh said:


> Because you once had sense?
> 
> hehehehe only kidding - or maybe, you wanted to split the frequencies to a driver that was able to handle the said frequencies with any real control?
> 
> ...


why would I separate the vital 300-5k range into multiple drivers with inherent phase issues? These drivers will handle more than enough power to provide SPL levals that will damage hearing, let alone reproduce recordings at adequate volume.

Your comments are about as insightful and intelligent as if you were saying that 18 inch subwoofers are the only drivers needed in any car system, period.

please get some actual experience with full range or wideband drivers and listen for yourself to how accurate and controlled they can be.

To answer the other questions, they will operate absolutely fine in an IB situation, as long as they aren't sharing airspace with a woofer that will cause them to be mechanically overdriven in the lower frequencies. they don't require any rocket science or other advanced principals to make them sound good, right now mine are running wrapped in towels on my dash and sound great.

And they extend to 32khz, which should replace absolutely any tweeter out there. Honestly, I prefer the sound of these to the NEO3's, simliar sound, very detailed, but a little more robust.


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

**update** the output from my EPX2 died mysteriously the other day... SO

I eliminated the

CROSSOVERS!!!

the fostex are running completely full range, as well as the Seas W180NX in my doors... I relocated the fostex into a position in my pillars that put them the same distance as the door speakers from my ears, and pointed them so they are on-axis for the opposite seat... 

why did I ever make this complicated? this is super simple and sounds great, overall, this is very, very nice, imaging, staging, tonality are all there in spades.

no EQ, no crossover, no tweeters

simplicity pwns you!


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

Haha nice! One question though, do you still have a low pass on the midbass?


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

no low pass... the only crossover of any kind is on the sub amp. everything else is full range. all I'm using is splitters.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

Sassmastersq said:


> no low pass... the only crossover of any kind is on the sub amp. everything else is full range. all I'm using is splitters.


Interesting, where are your midbass drivers mounted? I suppose they do have a natural roll off, but I think you should at least add a lowpass to them


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

honestly, it sounds better this way... they're mounted in the doors, and they are a very capable midrange driver in their own right... it's just cool that things are working out this way, it may never happen for anyone else, but I'm loving this!


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Somebody on a diy home audio forum had a pair of TangBand W4-1337SA's laying around he was also planning to use in his car, but didn't because they're too big for his A-pillars. Normally, these things cost 77 euro's a piece + shipping. He was willing to sell the pair to me for 100 euro's, shipping included.
Saving more than a third of the price on stuff that's just as new as in the shop is always a good idea, so I transferred the money and I received the TB's this week.

Yesterday, I placed them on top of my home speakers, with something underneat the motor so they were playing pretty much on-axis, and I connected them to my amplifier. No enclosure, no baffle, no filtering, real full-range and really free air, so I wasn't expecting much...
The second I turned on my amp and played some music, I was shocked!
The wide-midrange-region sounds fantastic, open, detailed, realistic...
The very top-octave doesn't sound like the best tweeter in the world, but I heard 'high-end' tweeters do a lot worse.
The biggest surprise is in the lower notes. Remember, this is a 4" driver, built to sound great at midrange and top-end, playing free-air with no baffle at all... Well, it sounded 'full', off course it doesn't make the floor shake or slap in your face, but the midbass was there and sounded snappy but also full.

Ow, only after listening and putting them back away, I realized I just listened to 4" titanium-cone full-range speakers. When I was listening, I was sometimes wondering if I really disconnected my home-speakers and I would describe the sound I heard as coming of a set of 5.25" papercone's plus a pair of medium-end soft dome tweeters!

Off course there is a down side, but it shouldn't be an issue in a car system built to sound great for 1 person sitting in the drivers seat: you really need to listen on-axis to them. 
When listening off-axis, even only about 20° off, they start to sound like they've put a speaker inside a duck. I'm pretty sure a baffle or enclosure would help a bit, but they aren't made for off-axis listening, but I guess everybody knows beaming is very normal for a 4" driver playing up to 20kHz.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

Candisa said:


> Somebody on a diy home audio forum had a pair of TangBand W4-1337SA's laying around he was also planning to use in his car, but didn't because they're too big for his A-pillars. Normally, these things cost 77 euro's a piece + shipping. He was willing to sell the pair to me for 100 euro's, shipping included.
> Saving more than a third of the price on stuff that's just as new as in the shop is always a good idea, so I transferred the money and I received the TB's this week.
> 
> Yesterday, I placed them on top of my home speakers, with something underneat the motor so they were playing pretty much on-axis, and I connected them to my amplifier. No enclosure, no baffle, no filtering, real full-range and really free air, so I wasn't expecting much...
> ...


In bold is exactly my experience when moving to full range drivers. Mind you, 3-way setup are very similar in nature as well, but obviously its a bit more difficult to execute properly. I think this setup has potential because it allows those new to car audio to get stellar sound without much work. Before I became more knowledgeable in audio (lots of reading!) my first time going active was not very successful. I simply couldn't get the traditional two way active setup in my car to sound like a single, coherent point source. 

Yes a 4 inch driver has much more noticeable beaming than a 3 inch driver, which is expected obviously. I found that 3 inch speakers really are the magic size for full range, with decent off axis performance and enough extension to blend well with a midbass. This is both from personal experience and the experience of others. 

Most (not all mind you) 2 inch drivers simply don't have the response down low to blend well with a midbass. This is preference of course. If I use dedicated midbass, I like them crossed over no higher than 200hz.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

3" is indeed better against beaming, it's easier to put somewhere and top-end extension should be a little better than a 4", but I couldn't find a decent, affordable 3" full-range driver with a good x-max.

I want to cross them as low as possible, I'm thinking 150Hz, maybe lower (I'm using 6" TangBand subwoofers as 'midbasswoofers', all the way down to 20Hz), and for most music at normal listening volumes, most 3" full-range drivers will do that, but I like to listen to some metal once in a while, and off-course, that's not the kind of music to be listened at quietly.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

Candisa said:


> 3" is indeed better against beaming, it's easier to put somewhere and top-end extension should be a little better than a 4", but I couldn't find a decent, affordable 3" full-range driver with a good x-max.
> 
> I want to cross them as low as possible, I'm thinking 150Hz, maybe lower (I'm using 6" TangBand subwoofers as 'midbasswoofers', all the way down to 20Hz), and for most music at normal listening volumes, most 3" full-range drivers will do that, but I like to listen to some metal once in a while, and off-course, that's not the kind of music to be listened at quietly.


Don't be so concerned about x-max. In small sealed enclosures they have plenty of control at lower frequencies. You really shouldn't cross them over lower than 150hz as distortion becomes more apparent at that point. Just try them higher for metal, around 200hz is a good point IMO.

You are not in the US, so I have no idea what your options are as far as full range drivers go. The Dayton RS100 fits your needs if you can get it for an affordable price. Has plenty of extension and the distortion even down to 100hz is more than acceptable. In case you haven't seen them:

Parts-Express.comayton RS100-4 4" Reference Full-Range Driver 4 Ohm | Rs100-4 woofer 4 inch woofer midbass dayton loudspeaker dayton audio rs rs100 phase plug dayton reference reference-22008 daytonFullTweetRange030209


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Megalomaniac said:


> What about using an Coax instead of a Fullrange...


I was waiting for DS to come in and say that 

You beat him to it.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Babs said:


> That's my concern..
> 
> Which of any of these small "full-range" or rather "extended-range" drivers can reasonably fill in the roll as a tweeter "REPLACEMENT" that basically extends low enough to work in a sweet door mid-bass 2-way setup, but still have good detail and air up high without adding a small tweet with it?
> 
> ...


I wondered the same thing until I had installed L4's and L1pro's in my kicks. While tuning and testing, I kept raising the crossover, and eventually just shut the L1pro's completely off. I had the L4's crossed at 10Khz and they were extremely smooth and detailed. Honestly, I was shocked. You get the good low end of the midrange spectrum because of the 4" cone, yet they have great high end extension as well. Just an amazingly versatile driver.
I crossed them as low as 200hz and as high as 15K and they were SOLID.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Fast1one said:


> Don't be so concerned about x-max. In small sealed enclosures they have plenty of control at lower frequencies. You really shouldn't cross them over lower than 150hz as distortion becomes more apparent at that point. Just try them higher for metal, around 200hz is a good point IMO.
> 
> You are not in the US, so I have no idea what your options are as far as full range drivers go. The Dayton RS100 fits your needs if you can get it for an affordable price. Has plenty of extension and the distortion even down to 100hz is more than acceptable. In case you haven't seen them:
> 
> Parts-Express.comayton RS100-4 4" Reference Full-Range Driver 4 Ohm | Rs100-4 woofer 4 inch woofer midbass dayton loudspeaker dayton audio rs rs100 phase plug dayton reference reference-22008 daytonFullTweetRange030209


I already have those TB's and I'm gonna use them 
I rather have a speaker that is able to move an amount of air I'll never need, than a speaker that 'might' be strong enough but with the risk that it isn't.

I had a list of drivers that fit my needs (CSS FR125, Dayton RS100, a couple TB's, MarkAudio Alpair6...) and after searching for reviews and opinions, it seemed the TB titanium cone driver was the safest investment. Now that I have them and listened to them, I absolutely don't regret it. 
They sound like a great 5.25" papercone midwoofer + a good soft-dome tweeter to me and I'm a thousand percent sure they are strong enough for my needs.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Your thoughts on this little buyout?
Peerless 830983


















Specifications: *Power handling: 7 watts RMS/60 watts max *VCdia: 1" *Le: 0.2 mH *Impedance: 4 ohms *Re: 3.8 ohms *Frequency response: 150-20,000 Hz *Fs: 147.5 Hz *SPL: 82 dB 1W/1m *Vas: 0.07 cu. ft. *Qms: 3.06 *Qes: 0.7 *Qts: 0.57 *Xmax: 1.8 mm *Dimensions: A: 2.17" (2.56" diagonally ear-to-ear), B: 1.97", C: 1.31". 

.. hehehe.. at THAT price.. Two of them together in an array in my A-pillar spot!!!


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

With a 4" your a still going to have beaming issues unless you are almost perfectly on axis. At 7000hz a 4" will be down 10db 30 degress off axis.


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

Babs: looks like those might work well, try em out and see!


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

With such a small driver you MIGHT be able to get away with an array, but I would do a 1.5 way instead. This will give you BSC compensation without a loss in efficiency, which is vital for a driver with such a low efficiency as is. Crossed over low (200-500hz) the phase shift with a first order roll off ( inductor in series) wont be as audible as you may think. Currently I have a 1.5 way with my RS100s.... Thats going to change soon though


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## blamus (Mar 9, 2009)

10$ each? i might just have to try it.... damn u!


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

For that price I would look into something that has proven to be great sounding:

Zaph|Audio


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

82 db sensitivity!


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## dkh (Apr 2, 2008)

Sassmastersq said:


> why would I separate the vital 300-5k range into multiple drivers with inherent phase issues? These drivers will handle more than enough power to provide SPL levals that will damage hearing, let alone reproduce recordings at adequate volume.
> 
> Your comments are about as insightful and intelligent as if you were saying that 18 inch subwoofers are the only drivers needed in any car system, period.
> 
> please get some actual experience with full range or wideband drivers and listen for yourself to how accurate and controlled they can be.


Oh sorry, I should have added - I have no experience with any speakers...
Let alone know anything about how a door mounted speaker unless angled at your facial vicinity is not going to get anywhere near the 10k plus regional response or you going to have very compromised pathlengths...

Of course, you could build pods at the furthest corners of the front doors but then all that work and not knowing that you cant differeniate horizontal frequencies below non-tweeter frequencies.

Glad it works for you


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

Did he say they were door-mounted? Might better stick with your HATs...


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

yeah... thanks for the advice on doors... I'll keep that in mind while I'm building my A pillars.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Candisa said:


> 3" is indeed better against beaming, it's easier to put somewhere and top-end extension should be a little better than a 4", but I couldn't find a decent, affordable 3" full-range driver with a good x-max.
> 
> I want to cross them as low as possible, I'm thinking 150Hz, maybe lower (I'm using 6" TangBand subwoofers as 'midbasswoofers', all the way down to 20Hz), and for most music at normal listening volumes, most 3" full-range drivers will do that, but I like to listen to some metal once in a while, and off-course, that's not the kind of music to be listened at quietly.


I would suggest looking into how Creative Labs designed their THX PC speakers that use 3" full-range Tang Band drivers. My younger brother owns a set of good ones that use this Tang Band driver model: W3-871SC

It looks like a discontinued product on Parts Express.  But I heard these in my brother's computer room and they are quite good. The highs are really nice and the mids seem to lack a certain deep sound that you get on bigger mids, but I'm sure that can be cured with a a big midbass driver covering some of the lower midrange.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> I would suggest looking into how Creative Labs designed their THX PC speakers that use 3" full-range Tang Band drivers. My younger brother owns a set of good ones that use this Tang Band driver model: W3-871SC
> 
> It looks like a discontinued product on Parts Express.  But I heard these in my brother's computer room and they are quite good. The highs are really nice and the mids seem to lack a certain deep sound that you get on bigger mids, but I'm sure that can be cured with a a big midbass driver covering some of the lower midrange.


Of course this all depends on where and how you are mounting the drivers and where you are actually crossing them, but I do not recommend using your midbass driver for midrange frequencies. Especially if you were planning on mounting the midrange driver in the A pillars/dash. You're going to drag your soundstage down.
If all of the speakers were in one location, it would be better, but I'd still prefer to get those midrange frequencies from one driver, not two.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> I would suggest looking into how Creative Labs designed their THX PC speakers that use 3" full-range Tang Band drivers. My younger brother owns a set of good ones that use this Tang Band driver model: W3-871SC
> 
> It looks like a discontinued product on Parts Express.  But I heard these in my brother's computer room and they are quite good. *The highs are really nice and the mids seem to lack a certain deep sound that you get on bigger mids*, but I'm sure that can be cured with a a big midbass driver covering some of the lower midrange.


That's the reason why I chose 4" drivers.

TangBand 3" FR drivers all have an x-max of .5mm one-way, wich is enough for reproducing 500Hz and up, but not enough to play the 250-500Hz part with enough authority. A lot of 'warmth' and 'deepness' is in that octave. 
I probably could use my midbasswoofers (TB W6-1139) up to 500Hz, but then I have the risk of it sounding muddy, those things aren't made to go there, they are designed as subwoofers, small ones, but subwoofers...

The TangBand W4-1337SA drivers I have now have an x-max of 3mm and they have almost twice the cone area, they can move exactly 11 (eleven!!!) times as much air in 1 move compared to the drivers that are used in some Creative and Logitech speakersets (wich indeed sound great but 'small').
According to WinISD, with the power I'm giving them (8ohm driver on a Genesis Stereo 100 --> about 50W), I can cross as low as 100Hz LR4 without exceeding their x-max, while the 3" version gets close to it's x-max crossed at 500Hz LR4 with the same power applied!

Off course, 100Hz is very low for a 4" driver and the excursion needed to do that would mess up the top-end response and distortion, but 200ish Hz shouldn't be a problem, wich is low enough to get that warm low midrange sound, without having to let the minisubs play much higher than they're designed for.


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## dkh (Apr 2, 2008)

Sassmastersq said:


> yeah... thanks for the advice on doors... I'll keep that in mind while I'm building my A pillars.


:blush: missed the a-pillar bit...


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## DanWiggins (Jun 15, 2005)

Babs said:


> The drivers are from Bandor.. New Page 1


Quick correction... The speakers for 2008 and earlier were from Bandor; these new ones were designed all-new (every part - basket, cone, dustcap, surround, spider, motor) and purpose-built for this application. They're a VERY large step-up from the Bandors.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

ok.. Let's see some installs.  
(might be more appropriate in another thread.. if you like, I'll start one)

Show your unconventional or sorta-quasi-conventional a-pillar or dash full-range or ext-range tweeter-less installs. 
And your thoughts on how it turned out, x-over points if any, etc.
What you learned, etc... (hint: I'm tryin' to learn at this point).

Want me to start a thread and link it here?


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

ok I see "baffle step compensation" eluded to. 
What the heck is it?.. More than just the shape or frontal profile of the baffle?

... It's making me think screw it.. back to square one with the idea of 4" comps.. pvi 210 quarts or 100 focals maybe.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Well technically baffle step compensation can apply to any speaker mounted on a baffle, not just small full range drivers. I wouldn't let that stop you from experimenting with them.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I'm very much surprised to see the full range driver discussion on DIYMA!

For those of you who think some of these drivers wont have that "sparkle" or play to 20k you are dead wrong. Those of you who think they couldn't have response in the 200hz area...you are even MORE wrong!

Those of you who came to the DFW Brownieque at Foosman's house heard my full range cabinets using the MarkAudio CHR-70 drivers. NO crossover! Those things had balls down to 50hz and only off 5 watts from my T-amp!!! These things will really blow you away and they are the lowest end driver that Mark Audio sells! Maybe some of you who heard them can comment further on their sound. I've also built a pair of horns for the Fostex 126 that are just gorgeous. Sound that makes you wonder why tweeters were even invented. If I had the mounting space requirements for a full range driver in my vehicle I would use them; no question.

I loved these drivers so much I decided to become a Mark Audio dealer and a CSS dealer. If you guys are interested in any of these drivers let me know and I'll hook you up with the DIYMA forum bro discount  I carry their both CSS and Mark Audio's full lines.
Creative Sound Solutions - Loudspeakers, Parts and DIY Speaker Kits
Welcome to Markaudio | Markaudio

I myself have a pair of the FR125sr drivers from CSS in the mail on their way to me right now. I've been dying to try these guys. I have


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Babs said:


> ok.. Let's see some installs.
> (might be more appropriate in another thread.. if you like, I'll start one)
> 
> Show your unconventional or sorta-quasi-conventional a-pillar or dash full-range or ext-range tweeter-less installs.
> ...


I've got a TON of full range pictures but they aren't in a car...do you still want them?


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Sure.. I'll pm an email if you'd rather.

hmmmmm.... CSS and Mark Audio... (gears churning and grinding after one too many home-made margarita's) 

Q1: Would you consider the Alpair 5's an "upgrade" from the CHR70?

Q2: Your thoughts on a two way front-stage using Alpair or CHR either up-top, with an SDX7 in-door? 

.. Cross-able low enough to work with a typical 4ch amp active maybe. Th a-pillar enclosures would be pretty small typically.. A glassed in thing like bikinpunk pulled off with his scan-speaks, but possibly with one driver, baffle angled to fire closer to on-axis.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

I'm looking at small full range drivers too and have been researching them for some time. My install will have DLS Iridium 8's in the door and I have a factory 3.5" in the dash at the far corners and deep in the dash against the windshield. The Magnum has a very deep and wide dash which should help with stage depth and width.

I'm not sure what kind of response I'd get firing at the windshield though, but that's about my only option since I don't want to cut the car up. The CHR-70 is a little too big to fit unless I hacked up the dash some, but the Alpair 5 would fit no problem.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Babs said:


> Sure.. I'll pm an email if you'd rather.
> 
> hmmmmm.... CSS and Mark Audio... (gears churning and grinding after one too many home-made margarita's)
> 
> ...


Babs, I responded to your PM before I read this post.

A1: The Alpair 5 is definitely and upgrade. It has much better top end than the CHR70....and the CHR70 already has a good top end.

A2: My first choice would be the FR125 and the SDX7 paired up in a 2way front stage. If you know they will be off axis the Alpair 5 might be a better option.


89grand said:


> I'm looking at small full range drivers too and have been researching them for some time. My install will have DLS Iridium 8's in the door and I have a factory 3.5" in the dash at the far corners and deep in the dash against the windshield. The Magnum has a very deep and wide dash which should help with stage depth and width.
> 
> I'm not sure what kind of response I'd get firing at the windshield though, but that's about my only option since I don't want to cut the car up. The CHR-70 is a little too big to fit unless I hacked up the dash some, but the Alpair 5 would fit no problem.


The Alpair5 was my exact same thought. In the PM I sent babs I explained how the Alpair5 has a bit of a ramp up as it approaches 20khz. This would be PERFECT if they were off axis since it would work to your advantage. Both the Alpair5 and FR125 will work in tiny (and I mean that) enclosures and still have bottom end response. In fact, if you actually use/install either of these you should run them FULL range first before tuning just to see what I mean. They do damn well even down to 100hz. My CHR-70's in my home enclosures have flat response down to 50hz!


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## blamus (Mar 9, 2009)

now we're talking about larger, 4" drivers etc. I've been following your HT thread, and those CHR70s you used were put into beautifully designed and crafted floor standing cabinets, I can't imagine how they'd work just smacked onto the dash! 

Well, for me, the largest I can put on my dash are 3 1/4 inches (mounting holes corner to corner) anyway, so theFF85K would be the absolute largest.

I very much like the idea of putting a fullrange driver up high, but I can only put things onto my dash, firing up into the windshield. And I can see that off axis like this, these fullrage drivers suck on the top end. Having said that I'm now using crappy stock 3" cone tweeters on the dash (waiting to be changed) and I'm actually quite happy with the result.

I'll be using those 5.25 peerless HDS nomex in the doors, they dont play that low, but does quite well all the way up to 2K, and I saw the pluto speaker system by linkwitz, which uses those 5.25 nomex woofers and 2" aura whispers. I thought to myself, if this combo is good enough for linkwitz its good enough for me. They are crossed at 1k in the pluto design. 

And then I found the peerless 830983 2" fullrange on PE buyout for $8 each, and looking at the response graph (no distortion data unfortunately) I thought I might as well give it a shot. Apparently the minivanman has used these on his wife's santa fe, and he found the top end to be a bit fatiguing, and eventually added a tweeter passively. Thats not an option for me which is why I keep coming back to thinking about the FF85K, which, everyone seems to be happy with regarding the top end. But they are 4x more expensive! So i think for now I have set my mind on just trying the 2" peerless for cheap, cross them at 500-1k region and see how it goes. Crossing them higher allow the 2" to handle more power, and use my midbass in a wider range. Are there any advantages in crossing them low at 200 like most people here seem to be doing? Crossing the seas W18s at 200 just seems like such a waste.....

Obviously an alternative is to actually take full advantage of the low crossing point of these fullrangers and dump my 5.25: midbass and go for some 6.5" SLS and cross them at around 250, but then I don't even know where I can find the SLS anymore. Maybe its time to go back to think about those Mach 5s I never got.


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

The alpair5 made my very short list, but the FR graph didn't look as good to me as the FF85k, still a great driver, but didn't have the high end I was looking for... that said, it's still a very capable driver.


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## niceguy (Mar 12, 2006)

Pics anyone?

I may be getting rid of my Grand Voyager (large format tweets in dash) but am still interested in running some full rangers regardless...


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

blamus said:


> now we're talking about larger, 4" drivers etc. I've been following your HT thread, and those CHR70s you used were put into beautifully designed and crafted floor standing cabinets, I can't imagine how they'd work just smacked onto the dash!
> *and*
> Are there any advantages in crossing them low at 200 like most people here seem to be doing? Crossing the seas W18s at 200 just seems like such a waste.....
> 
> Obviously an alternative is to actually take full advantage of the low crossing point of these fullrangers and dump my 5.25: midbass and go for some 6.5" SLS and cross them at around 250, but then I don't even know where I can find the SLS anymore. Maybe its time to go back to think about those Mach 5s I never got.


Think about this for a second. The enclosure of a speaker, speaking strictly about interior volume and design, is really only meant to alter the low end frequency response. The box design and airspace doesn't really affect the mid to high frequencies. So why would it matter in this case if you are crossing at or below 250hz? 

Advantages include being able to use beefier midbass speakers like the SLS's you mentioned 
I thought that Madisound still had those available, do they not?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Sassmastersq said:


> The alpair5 made my very short list, but the FR graph didn't look as good to me as the FF85k, still a great driver, but didn't have the high end I was looking for... that said, it's still a very capable driver.


The Fostex is a very great driver as well but it has it's flaws too. I agree it has slightly better top end but there is a large valley in the response in the 1.5-2.5k region. It also doesn't play nearly as low, you can see the response starts to roll off around 250hz.

I'm not at all ragging on Fostex though. I actually have a pair of their FE126e drivers that were modified by Dave at Planet10-hifi. They are really something special.


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

I prefer a driver with a big dip to one with a small dip... big dips can usually be taken care of with one or more EQ bands... tiny dips are usually too small to properly be taken care of even with a single EQ band.


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## 240sxguy (May 28, 2009)

Wow, awesome stuff. So tempting having madisound 15 minutes from work. I have been looking at this full range business and even know where I would place them!

Evan


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

ItalynStylion said:


> The Fostex is a very great driver as well but it has it's flaws too. I agree it has slightly better top end but there is a large valley in the response in the 1.5-2.5k region. It also doesn't play nearly as low, you can see the response starts to roll off around 250hz.
> 
> I'm not at all ragging on Fostex though. I actually have a pair of their FE126e drivers that were modified by Dave at Planet10-hifi. They are really something special.


That dip that you speak of is not nearly as bad as it looks in real life, trust me. Nothing is missing or sticks out like a sore thumb when playing music. Granted, mine are modified by Dave as well. Also, since you are pairing them with midbass drivers I see no problem with having the response roll off at 200-250hz. Now if you were trying to cross to a subwoofer, that's a different story. 

I would love to compare them to the Mark audios though, rave reviews everywhere, I just see no reason to experiment with other drivers at this point. I am very happy with my home setup.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Well well well.... 
Hi-Vi A2S 2" Alum Driver speakers set of (4) unused - eBay (item 110397156503 end time Jun-07-09 16:15:00 PDT)

These are actually priced about right.. I'm concidering them. 
They're the previous version. PE blew them out at like $6/driver.

hmmm.. 4 2" hi-vi's..  Array? I'd take some serious nice work to get them on axis for sure.. and not sure even that fitting 2 together would be feasible.

Your thoughts?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

What's the response graph look like on them? Do they play all the way up to 20k?


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

Two drivers in an array doesn't sound good IMO. I have a 1.5 way right now with my RS100s and I decided to go full range for both of them for kicks. It just doesn't sound coherent whatsoever, with severe lobing at the higher frequencies. 2 inch drivers might be better, but I think we are simply too close to the speakers for it to work properly.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Eh, 15k... 









Hi-Vi A2S 2" Full Range from Madisound


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

^:surprised:....:worried:


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## blamus (Mar 9, 2009)

with shipping they'll be at least $25 for 4, assuming no one bids on them. Looking at the response graph, I can't see how the peerless 2" at PE for $8 each are inferior? Dont have any distortion data to compare though. And the sensitivity of the hi-vis are soooo much lower

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/830983.pdf

I'm really 10 min away from ordering 4 of these to try them out. I really dont think anything 15kHz + is going to be matter in a moving car..... I've also considered the well trusted B3S, aura whispers, the much more expensive fostex etc. Obviously all I have to compare are response graphs and price, and I just keep coming back to the peerless....


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## blamus (Mar 9, 2009)

btw I am very temped with those markaudio fullragers for a friend's HT project. But she doesn't like floor standers, she wants the front speakers to be next to the TV, so bookshelf size speakers will have to do, and surrounds that can be wall mounted. Whats the smallest and easiest (ported/sealed?) they can go into, used with the average sub and HT receiver?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

blamus said:


> btw I am very temped with those markaudio fullragers for a friend's HT project. But she doesn't like floor standers, she wants the front speakers to be next to the TV, so bookshelf size speakers will have to do, and surrounds that can be wall mounted. Whats the smallest and easiest (ported/sealed?) they can go into, used with the average sub and HT receiver?


I believe the Alpair5 fits into the smallest box. I know because I was modeling them in Unibox because I'll be selling a computer speaker system that incorporates them and the enclosures needed to be miniature. I don't have Unibox on the computer I'm posting from but I believe that they were good down to a little lower than 100hz. I think they could make some excellent surrounds. If you don't need a big bass from them in a surround application they will easily fit in a box that is less than .1 cubic feet.

The CSS FR125sr is also another great option. I opted to use them instead of the Alpair5 because they fit into an even SMALLER box. Since I was incorporating a sub into the system that would go under the desk the response was perfect to match together. The FR125's should be at my door by the end of the week. I might end up testing them in the tweeter review I'll be doing with some other guys this weekend. It would be interesting to see how they stack up against dedicated tweeters. The more and more I think about it that actually sounds like a really good idea!


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Fast1one said:


> In bold is exactly my experience when moving to full range drivers. Mind you, 3-way setup are very similar in nature as well, but obviously its a bit more difficult to execute properly. I think this setup has potential because it allows those new to car audio to get stellar sound without much work. Before I became more knowledgeable in audio (lots of reading!) my first time going active was not very successful. I simply couldn't get the traditional two way active setup in my car to sound like a single, coherent point source.
> 
> Yes a 4 inch driver has much more noticeable beaming than a 3 inch driver, which is expected obviously. I found that 3 inch speakers really are the magic size for full range, with decent off axis performance and enough extension to blend well with a midbass. This is both from personal experience and the experience of others.
> 
> Most (not all mind you) 2 inch drivers simply don't have the response down low to blend well with a midbass. This is preference of course. If I use dedicated midbass, I like them crossed over no higher than 200hz.


Your experience with full range drivers mirrors mine.

Some quick observations:

- Three is the magic number. Two inch drivers can't handle enough power unless you use a waveguide. Four inch drivers only sound good when you're on-axis, and that's not possible in a car.

- I tried a ton of the small drivers, and a lot of them are really crappy. Seems like 95% of the small woofers out there are junk. The 2inch Hi-Vi is particularly horrendous. I bought a pair, even though Zaph's review said they were junk. He was right.

- The Aurasound two inch is a quality unit. It's the best two inch I've evaluated. It is the one driver I've seen that can play for six octaves. (from 313hz - 20khz.)

- My order of Peerless two inch woofers should be here from Madisound any day now.

- Don't bother with an array in the car, they don't work. For an array to "sum" properly, you have to be ten times as far as their vertical height.  So if you're sixty inches from the kick panels, the maximum vertical height is six inches. I'm too curious for my own good, so I built an array that was 12inches tall using 3inch drivers, and it sounded completely mediocre. It wasn't terrible, but it was definitely worse than a single driver.


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## blamus (Mar 9, 2009)

> My order of Peerless two inch woofers should be here from Madisound any day now


So you have always felt that 2" wont have enough power handling and 3" is the best choice, yet you are going to go out of your way and try the peerless 2"


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

Just so you guys know, I would take the response above 15k with a grain of salt. Too many times I have been fooled by response graphs only to find that the response was fine above that point since our ears are not very sensitive to frequency fluctuations in that last half octave. In addition, many manufactures over inflate the performance in that area for several reasons. Some of them I have heard use microphones that are inconsistent up there. This is for full range drivers mind you, tweeters I have no experience with the quality of response graphs in the upper octave.

Besides, you can easily EQ that top octave to taste. A bit of boost that high never hurt anyone.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Four inch drivers only sound good when you're on-axis, *and that's not possible in a car*.


Why wouldn't that be possible in a car?


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

Patrick Bateman said:


> - Don't bother with a fullrange array or any other array up to 20khz in the car, they don't work.


Fixed.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Patrick Bateman said:


> - Don't bother with an array in the car, they don't work. For an array to "sum" properly, you have to be ten times as far as their vertical height. So if you're sixty inches from the kick panels, the maximum vertical height is six inches. I'm too curious for my own good, so I built an array that was 12inches tall using 3inch drivers, and it sounded completely mediocre. It wasn't terrible, but it was definitely worse than a single driver.



Mark's Elderigde's Nascar may beg to differ!


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## Stel (Mar 11, 2008)

From what I'm reading some of these full range drivers are used in alot of everyday products "Peerless full range drivers set the standard for quality audio in products including flat panel televisions and sound bars, MP3 and cell phone docking stations, and multimedia PCs. " I've never heard great sound out of any of those. We're they just not using decent drivers maybe?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Stel said:


> From what I'm reading some of these full range drivers are used in alot of everyday products "Peerless full range drivers set the standard for quality audio in products including flat panel televisions and sound bars, MP3 and cell phone docking stations, and multimedia PCs. " I've never heard great sound out of any of those. We're they just not using decent drivers maybe?


I think in that case you should consider a few things. Consider the quality of the source, alignment/enclosure, and amp in those cases. They work if you have VERY limited space but I think something a little bigger would provide MUCH better results.

I agree, mostly, with Patrick's statement about the sweet spot for full rangers. As a general rule that seems to be pretty accurate but I can tell you that there are a few exceptions to that rule. The Fostex FE126 is a good example of this. I'm confident that the FR125's I got in the mail yesterday will be a fantastic driver as well. Unfortunately one got mangled in the shipping process and the mounting flange broke between two of the mounting holes. I was shocked at what USPS had managed to do and even more shocked that the driver still tracked perfectly linear!!!

Also, is it REALLY hard to get something like these drivers on axis in a car? Yes.
Is it impossible? No. It just takes the proper amount of planning and execution skills!


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

Candisa said:


> Why wouldn't that be possible in a car?


x2. Obviously it would take some work, but far from impossible...


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Here-I-Come said:


> Mark's Elderigde's Nascar may beg to differ!


I appreciate that you quoted the whole post. As I noted in my original post, the vertical height of the array is critical. If your array is 12" tall, the minimum listening distance is about ten feet.

That's why arrays don't work in a car; you're too close to them.

Here's a pic of Eldridge's car; based on what I've read some of the drivers are _behind_ the firewall. With an install like that, the path lengths are going to be _extremely_ long.

But there's no way in hell I'm removing the firewall in my car to install speakers. Didn't he do this with the 4Runner too?










Also there are some tricks you can do with arrays to make them work better:

- You can use a very small array. For instance, an array of three Aurasound NS2 has a height of 6" and a minimum listening distance of five feet. That's doable in a car.
- Dynaudio uses a tweeter array in their Evidence speakers. The way they get around the "minimum distance" requirement is to filter one tweeter.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Candisa said:


> Why wouldn't that be possible in a car?


Because you're seated off-axis.

That's not a big deal for a tweeter, because their response doesn't narrow until 10khz or so. But for a 4inch driver, the response begins to narrow way too low, and that screws up the imaging big time.

A lot of manufacturers don't publish polar response charts, but it's pretty easy to predict when a driver will start beaming. Here's the equation:

(speed of sound/diaphragm diameter)

Here's an example.

A Vifa PL11 has a diaphragm that's 3.4" across. Based on that, we'd expect it to start beaming at 4058hz. *(13800 inches per second / 3.4 inches)*

Here's a pic of the actual polar response from Vifa. You can see it starts beaming at...










While it's always better to have actual polar measurements, this can get you "in the ballpark."


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Patrick, what a fantastic explanation of beaming. Thanks for taking the time. It looks like that Vifa starts around 4.5k and ends around 6k? Is that right?

I'm having a hard time understanding why you can't be on axis in a car. If you point the drivers directly at you isn't that on axis? I understand that one of them will more than likely be farther from your ear than the other but does that affect whether they are considered on axis or not? I suspect that in a car, even though you can point a speaker directly at an individual, it will vary about which axis is seen by the ear. How much does this affect things?


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

I am working on pods to put a couple TangBand W4-1337's on top of my dashboard, both laser-pointed directly at my ears, how would I be seating off-axis then?


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

You can be on axis in a car but... Most don't want to have 4" angled way over unless you do kicks or something. Even then anyone else in the car will not have the sound you do....but sure it will work if you aim them at you. On top of that most 4" do have a hard time getting really high, but that is preference.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

I tested those TangBands at home, just full range at normal volume level. I didn't miss any high's, knowing that I'm used to listen to B&W DM2a's that not only have a tweeter for 3.5kHz and up, but also an extra tweeter for everything above 13kHz.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

ItalynStylion said:


> Patrick, what a fantastic explanation of beaming. Thanks for taking the time. It looks like that Vifa starts around 4.5k and ends around 6k? Is that right?
> 
> I'm having a hard time understanding why you can't be on axis in a car. If you point the drivers directly at you isn't that on axis? I understand that one of them will more than likely be farther from your ear than the other but does that affect whether they are considered on axis or not? I suspect that in a car, even though you can point a speaker directly at an individual, it will vary about which axis is seen by the ear. How much does this affect things?


Thanks!

I'd actually say that it starts beaming at 3khz, based on the graph. We can "guess" that it wills start beaming at 4058hz, but that just gets us "in the ballpark." There are always other factors. In this case, I'd guess it's the surround. (Only part of the surround is included in the published SD spec.)

As for your question about aiming, sure you can aim both speakers at the driver, but that's not really fair to your passengers is it?

As I see it, there are two solutions to the imaging problem in the car:

#1 - The easy solution is just listen to BOTH speakers off axis. In other words, cross fire them. A lot of stock systems do this. The driver's speaker is aimed anywhere but the driver, and vice versa. Besides being easy and inexpensive, it also creates a sense of "spaciousness" in the sound field. The key to this arrangement is to use drivers that sound good off axis. The graph of the Vifa PL11 above is a good example.

#2 - The "ultimate" solution is to use waveguides. Take a look at my soundstage thread if you want to follow *that* adventure. Be prepared to spend a lot of time tweaking


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I looked at a lot of large dome mids for something closer to full range, but they can't really do it. Would have nicer dispersion I'd think.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

But who cares about the passengers?  I am not prepared to put a 15 inch diameter waveguide in my car just yet


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

sqshoestring said:


> I looked at a lot of large dome mids for something closer to full range, but they can't really do it. Would have nicer dispersion I'd think.


I just got a box of drivers from Madisound for my waveguide project.
I couldn't resist buying some new woofers to play with.
The Peerless 2inch drivers are absolutely gorgeous! They look like miniature versions of the old Aurasound 18" subwoofers!


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I just got a box of drivers from Madisound for my waveguide project.
> I couldn't resist buying some new woofers to play with.
> The Peerless 2inch drivers are absolutely gorgeous! They look like miniature versions of the old Aurasound 18" subwoofers!


It had been a wonderful evening and what I needed now to give it the perfect ending was a bit of the old Ludwig Van.

Oh bliss, bliss and heaven.

Oh it was gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flesh. It was like a bird of rarest spun heaven metal, or like silvery wine flowing in a spaceship gravity all nonsense now


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## blamus (Mar 9, 2009)

that is way to poetic for my little brain to understand 

which exact model is the 2" in the pic? did you take the back off or something?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I think that's actually a picture of the Aura sub. Look at how tiny the binding posts look. No way that's a two inch speaker.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

ItalynStylion said:


> I think that's actually a picture of the Aura sub. Look at how tiny the binding posts look. No way that's a two inch speaker.


ha ha yeah!

The Peerless and the Aura both use that funky looking motor, though it's more "pear shaped" in the Aura eighteen.

Check out the pics in the link I posted...


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## blamus (Mar 9, 2009)

LOL i got trickzed!


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

blamus said:


> LOL i got trickzed!


Dammit I thought the Peerless drivers from Parts Express and Madisound were practically the same driver.

They're not!!!

The PE ones are 2", the ones from Madisound are 3".

  

So the ones I bought have a nasty peak at 10khz. Lame!

830987 | Tymphany

They still look good everywhere else, but the two inch drivers are definitely better behaved...

Parts-Express.comeerless P830970 2" Full Range Driver 4 Ohm | Peerless P830983 2" Full Range Driver tymphany vifa danish speaker technology dst lat250

830970 | Tymphany


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## blamus (Mar 9, 2009)

oh looks like u got trickzed! I thought it was strange, on that nice photo with the 15" sub you posted, the aura definitely looks way smaller, i guess its actually the peerless thats bigger!!! and the madisound 3" is 2 times more than the PE 2"!!!


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Candisa said:


> I am working on pods to put a couple TangBand W4-1337's on top of my dashboard, both laser-pointed directly at my ears, how would I be seating off-axis then?


I have just done similar with some W3 TB's. I'd be very interested to see how your 'in-car' response various from L/R pods when measured at the listening position. I noticed that although pods 'pods' measured very similar outside the car, when they are put on the dash my 'farside' pod lost a lot of output in the region 400-800hz roughly when compared to the 'nearside' pod. In the order of 5-8dB variance.

If you have seperate L/R EQ this shouldn't be too hard to counteract though.


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## DanWiggins (Jun 15, 2005)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I'd actually say that it starts beaming at 3khz, based on the graph. We can "guess" that it wills start beaming at 4058hz, but that just gets us "in the ballpark." There are always other factors. In this case, I'd guess it's the surround. (Only part of the surround is included in the published SD spec.)


Hi Patrick,

Also note that the rule of thumb is that 45 degrees off axis is down 3 dB at the wavelength=diameter point. So from the graph above, that would be somewhere around 3500 Hz or so (the 30 degree off axis plot is 3 dB down at 4 kHz).

Another interesting distance to keep in mind is the near field; it is a frequency-dependent distance from the transducer (d^2/L, where d is the diameter of the transducer and L is the wavelength). Beyond that point, the SPL behaves as one would expect from a point source: spherical wavefront (out to the dispersion limitation), 6 dB per doubling of distance loss, etc.

Within that point, the SPL becomes non-linear, in that it is not spherical spreading, and you can get actual DROPS in SPL as you move closer to the transducer.

This effect is yet another reason why you should use as small a transducer as possible for your system, or cross over low, especially when you sometimes end up 16-20" from the speaker OR have major obstructions around the speaker.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

BMWturbo said:


> I have just done similar with some W3 TB's. I'd be very interested to see how your 'in-car' response various from L/R pods when measured at the listening position. I noticed that although pods 'pods' measured very similar outside the car, when they are put on the dash my 'farside' pod lost a lot of output in the region 400-800hz roughly when compared to the 'nearside' pod. In the order of 5-8dB variance.
> 
> If you have seperate L/R EQ this shouldn't be too hard to counteract though.


I have an AudioControl EQX so that's no problem. Any un-equalized install will have a different FR curve left versus right, that's why I think a L/R seperate EQ is a must in every serious car audio setup.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

DanWiggins said:


> Hi Patrick,
> 
> Also note that the rule of thumb is that 45 degrees off axis is down 3 dB at the wavelength=diameter point. So from the graph above, that would be somewhere around 3500 Hz or so (the 30 degree off axis plot is 3 dB down at 4 kHz).
> 
> ...


The nearfield calculation seems a bit optimistic; is that correct?

For an eight inch piston, your formula works out to 0.128" at 500hz.
For a 72" tall array, it works out to 10.36" at 500hz.

Using the formula from here, I get the following:
Near Field Calculation

For an eight inch piston at 500hz it works out to 0.58".
For a 72" tall array, it works out to 47" at 500hz.

For a 12" tall array at 4khz, it works out to 10.43".

To further complicate matters, the formula from the 2nd page indicates the near field for high frequencies extends further than it does for low frequencies. Which doesn't make sense; I thought it was the opposite?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Here's what wikipedia says:

Fraunhofer distance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Near and far field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks to Dan, it looks like my morning reading is going to be this 

Amazon.com: Master Handbook of Acoustics: F. Alton Everest: Books


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## DanWiggins (Jun 15, 2005)

It's from the reduction in "Acoustics" by Kinsler, Frey, Coppens and Sanders. The Fraunhofer distance is even more dismal (thanks to the factor of 2). Anyway, the d^2/L is a rule we use a lot in SONAR and ultrasound, and is very important given the wavelengths involved (mm or um) and the distance of objects being ensonified (millimeters away).

If you do the math on d^2/L, you'll see that, for a fixed piston diameter (or array length), the nearfield INCREASES with frequency! It's why you really need to sit quite a ways back from a line array to get them to integrate well; the nearfield is quite large. For example, the 72" line you referenced would have FOOT nearfield at 1 kHz, and even larger out beyond that.

This works fine for concerts and the like, and is why a line array has a 3 dB per doubling of distance fall-off (on average) for most of its range. However, the problem really becomes apparent in an enclosed space, where the nearfield and side reflections will affect the total perceived soundfield. For example, that line array above - 72" - would have a 3 foot nearfield at ~100 Hz. Meaning that at distances beyond 3 feet the 100 Hz (and lower) frequencies are falling off at 6 dB per doubling of distance. So at 12 feet, the bass is down 12 dB; at 24 feet the bass is down 18 dB. Yet the treble has only lost 3 dB!

Line (and circular) arrays... Fun stuff!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

In regards to Mark's Nascar...it has some processing behind the scenes to make use of that horizontal array that he is rumored to be using. Him and Dr. Doug worked on it for a while from what i understand.

And the 4-Runner. Last I heard it had 10" coaxs in the front and the JBL midbasses. But who really knows what was in it and when it was there.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

DanWiggins said:


> If you do the math on d^2/L, you'll see that, for a fixed piston diameter (or array length), the nearfield INCREASES with frequency! It's why you really need to sit quite a ways back from a line array to get them to integrate well; the nearfield is quite large. For example, the 72" line you referenced would have FOOT nearfield at 1 kHz, and even larger out beyond that.


That doesn't make sense; if the piston diameter is fixed, than that equation indicates the opposite. It indicates that the transition from nearfield to farfield occurs closer and closer to the loudspeaker as the frequency goes higher. (as the numerator is fixed, and the denominator gets larger and larger.)

As promised, I tried to find the equation in Everest's "Master Handbook of Acoustics", and it's not there. Looks like I need to buy some new books.

This one looks promising:

Amazon.com: JBL Audio Engineering for Sound Reinforcement: John M. Eargle, Chris Foreman: Books

Eargle references a formula from Ureda on pg 144 which promises to define the transition from near-field to far field.

So let's do the math again, but this time for a car-audio sized line array. Let's do it for a 12 inch array.

Using the formula you posted we get the following:

The transition at 100hz = D^2/L = 12"^2/100hz = 144"/100hz = *1.44"*
The transition at 1khz = D^2/L = 12"^2/1000hz = *0.144"*
The transition at 5khz = D^2/L = 12"^2/5000hz = *0.0288"*

Now here's the same calculation, but using Ureda's formula:

Transition = (D^2*L)/664 - 82/2L

This equation is in metric, so we convert 12" to 0.3M

The transition at 100hz = (0.3M^2*100HZ)/664 - (82/200) = (0.01M - 0.41) = *0*
The transition at 1khz = (0.3M^2*1000HZ)/664 - (82/2000) = (0.14M - 0.04) = *0.1M = 3.93"*
The transition at 5khz = (0.3M^2*5000HZ)/664 - (82/10000) = (0.68M - 0.01) = *0.67M = 26.77"*

A few years back I build a four-driver array for my car. It sounded mediocre. Based on these calculations, the high frequency output would be a lot more prominent than the low, as the low frequency output would be decaying at a faster rate. (As we're in the farfield for nearly the entire distance, but in the nearfield for just a few inches.)

This jibes well with my experience; it sounded a bit shrill. It also sounded "odd", which could be caused by the reflected energy being so inconsistent (since the reflections are in the nearfield.)

Just thinking out loud...

Just to double check my math, here's the calculations for a one-meter array. You can compare my calculations to the graph in "Line Arrays for Live Sound."

Transition = (D^2*L)/664 - 82/2L
Array Length = 1M

The transition at 100hz = (1M^2*100HZ)/664 - (82/200) = (0.15M - 0.41M) = *0* (the graph says this is null)
The transition at 1khz = (1M^2*1000HZ)/664 - (82/2000) = (1.51M - 0.04M) = *1.47M* (the graph says this is 1.25M - but the graph is a bit coarse.)
The transition at 5khz = (1M^2*5000HZ)/664 - (82/10000) = (7.53M - 0.01M) = *7.52M* (the graph says this is 7.5M)

Here's the paper I referenced.


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

This has been some great reading, good to learn these things... 

one consideration... high end extension in a car might not as mbig an issue with full range drivers because of the near/far field situation... the higher frequencies don't roll off as fast, making those frequencies louder, compensating for poor response curves.... at least somewhat


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## DanWiggins (Jun 15, 2005)

Patrick Bateman said:


> That doesn't make sense; if the piston diameter is fixed, than that equation indicates the opposite. It indicates that the transition from nearfield to farfield occurs closer and closer to the loudspeaker as the frequency goes higher. (as the numerator is fixed, and the denominator gets larger and larger.)


I see your error; you're dividing by frequency, NOT wavelength! The denominator is not f, it is 13560/f (if working in inches). Thus it is inversely proportional to frequency.

Now, take the case of a 12" woofer (assume D is 12). We get the following:

20 Hz -> L = 678" -> nf = 0.21"
160 Hz-> L = 84" -> nf = 1.7"
1280 Hz -> L=10.6" -> nf = 13.6"

So as you increase in frequency, the transition from nearfield to farfield increases. Holding D constant, as L decreases (F increases) you get a bigger nearfield.

Beyond the nearfield limit, you are in the farfield, and the radiator has the expected 6 dB/doubling of distance fall-off, it's monotonic, it's continuous, etc. Inside the nearfield limit, you are in the nearfield, and all bets are off.

So consider a line array that is 72" long:

At 160 Hz, the wavelength is 84.75", and the nearfield is 61" (5 feet) away. At 2000 Hz (a typical woofer-to-tweeter crossover point), the wavelength is 6.78"; the nearfield is 764 (63 feet) away.

Higher frequencies result in a further nearfield/farfield transition for a radiator.

Now, what happens is that as you move down in frequency, the line array has its non-linear to linear SPL loss transition happen closer and closer to the line! Let's say that, at 160 Hz, at 5 feet, the line array has 90 dB SPL (and it's perfectly flat frequency response). At 10 feet, it would be 84 dB SPL at 160 Hz. At 20 feet, it would be 78 dB SPL at 160 Hz. At 40 feet, we're at 72 dB SPL; at 80 feet, we're at 66 dB SPL. The typical "double distance quarter acoustic power" loss.

Now, what happens at 2 kHz? Well, we're in the nearfield. Let's say we'll average over a small distance such as to eliminate the nulls that occur, and we only get the average SPL in the nearfield. At 2 kHz, at 5 feet, let's say we have that same 90 dB (that was the design location for the crossover). At 10 feet, we're still at 90 dB - still in the near field! At 20 feet, 90 dB. At 40 feet, 90 dB. At 80 feet, we're finally past the nearfield, and may be at 88 dB SPL. That's a full 22 dB above the 160 Hz output!

Now go the other way, 20 Hz to 160 Hz. Let's say again that we've designed to be completely flat, DC to light, 90 dB at 5 feet.

At 5 feet, 160 Hz, we're at 90 dB. The nearfield starts there; at 2.5 feet, we're at 90 dB. At 1.25 feet, we're at 90 dB. At 0.625 feet, we're at 90 dB, and so on.

What about 20 Hz? Well, for the 72" line array, with a 20 Hz frequency, we're at 0.637 feet for the nearfield/farfield transition. So at 5 feet, we're in the farfield, and we have 90 dB. At 2.5 feet, we're in the farfield, and we're at 96 dB. At 1.25 feet, we're in the farfield, and we're at 102 dB. At 0.625 feet, we're barely into the nearfield, and around 108 dB SPL. A full 18 dB higher than the 160 Hz point.

Now, granted, this isn't an issue with single drivers in most situations; but if you have arrays of speakers, or sit very closer to the pistons, it should be kept in mind!


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## blamus (Mar 9, 2009)

My peerless 2" fullragers have arrived. I'll post some speaker porn later. They look sweet. I'm now playing them in the house free air to break in. Which brings me to wonder, do I need to put them into sealed enclosures to work? Granted they will be crossed at about 500Hz but are they going to work simply mounted on the dash, which is more free air or open baffle than sealed. Or do I have to make pods for them? Any guesses?


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

blamus said:


> My peerless 2" fullragers have arrived. I'll post some speaker porn later. They look sweet. I'm now playing them in the house free air to break in. Which brings me to wonder, do I need to put them into sealed enclosures to work? Granted they will be crossed at about 500Hz but are they going to work simply mounted on the dash, which is more free air or open baffle than sealed. Or do I have to make pods for them? Any guesses?


When you apply a high pass crossover at a frequency that is 2xFs or higher, you don't really need an enclosure, but I wouldn't recommend OB in a car, so do like I do with my 4" tangbands: make pods that vent into the dash. 
This way the speakers can breath free, but the back-waves are blocked, so you have an IB situation.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Put them in an enclosure if you can.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

MiniVanMan said:


> Put them in an enclosure if you can.


Agreed, since these speakers are so small they need all the help they can get. Putting them into small sealed enclosures increases the power handling substantially. Anything under 4 inch should be in an enclosure IMO


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Fast1one said:


> Agreed, since these speakers are so small they need all the help they can get. Putting them into small sealed enclosures increases the power handling substantially. Anything under 4 inch should be in an enclosure IMO


A properly designed dipole is 6db more efficient than a monopole. A lot of these tiny speakers have a very high QTS, so vented enclosures are out of the question.

Admittedly, your F3 is going to be quite limited, but that's what subs are for. I think people would be surprised how good dipoles can sound, and the efficiency bump is icing on the cake.

Am I the only person that's noticed that most speakers sound better when they're not in a box?


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Am I the only person that's noticed that most speakers sound better when they're not in a box?


You're not, but dipole in a car is impossible due to the size of the room and the positioning of the seats and speakers, that's why I recommend to create an Infinite Baffle situation.
As long as you crossover high and steep enough (and I think everybody knows you can't expect a 2" driver to play low, even in a box), you don't have to worry about excursion, you DO have to worry about reflections and box coloration...


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Candisa said:


> You're not, but dipole in a car is impossible due to the size of the room and the positioning of the seats and speakers, that's why I recommend to create an Infinite Baffle situation.
> As long as you crossover high and steep enough (and I think everybody knows you can't expect a 2" driver to play low, even in a box), you don't have to worry about excursion, you DO have to worry about reflections and box coloration...


Reflections are the whole reason you WANT to use dipoles. Dipoles have a big null on the sides. That's a huge plus in the car, where we get brutal reflections from the doors and the windows.

And I don't mean a db or two; we're talking six DB peaks. It's really harsh.

It's bad enough that it messes up the frequency response, at least we can fix that with an EQ. But those reflections destroy your image too.










Here's a measurement of an actual dipole speaker, not some idealized simulation, and you can see that we're getting a TWENTY decibel null over half of the passband. 

How great is that? That big fat null does wonders for the imaging and response of our speakers.

You don't need a mic to test this though -

Try this experiment sometime; get a small woofer and put it up near the window of your car, and play some music over it. Now repeat the experiment, but with the woofer in a box.

I guarantee you it's going to sound more natural without the box. YES it plays lower WITH a box, but it sounds more natural without one.

It's the reflections that make it sound unnatural, and dipoles have less.


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## blamus (Mar 9, 2009)

so..... you are suggesting that I should just mount the 2"fullrange straight onto the dash and let it play free air?


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

Interesting theory. I have always been hesitant to try dipole in a car. I tried it at home and will NEVER go back. I notice though that when I push my home dipoles too close the wall bass quality and midrange suffers. HOWEVER, we are dealing with flat, square walls with parallel surfaces galore. Perhaps in the car, with the different materials and crazy angled surfaces, it may not be so bad. 

Touché sir, I am going to do some experimenting. 

Cheers!



Patrick Bateman said:


> Reflections are the whole reason you WANT to use dipoles. Dipoles have a big null on the sides. That's a huge plus in the car, where we get brutal reflections from the doors and the windows.
> 
> And I don't mean a db or two; we're talking six DB peaks. It's really harsh.
> 
> ...


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

I wasn't talking about reflections of the side windows/doors, I was talking about the reflections of the windshield and dashboard behind the baffle...

If you know that a dipole speaker at home should be placed at least 1 meter (that's about 3ft.?) from the back wall, depending on the material of the wall, to dampen the (out of phase -> canceling and coloring!) reflections enough, you will not have good or even acceptable results in a car with the speaker only inches away from the glass and plastic back-wall...

You also have to know that a dipole speaker nulls at the sides because the sound of the front and the out-of-phase sound of the back sums up to a null. That also needs a certain distance to happen and requires a free path of the back-wave, not blocked by A-pillars, mounts...

Dipole just doesn't work in small environments. Even a single dipole speaker (mono rear-fill) in the back of a large van with a thick layer of foam on the walls won't work, it doesn't even work optimal in a small living room!


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Resurrecting... 

On the topic of a nice 3" full-range..... Being that the drivers are like silly inexpensive.. 

Has anyone ever considered or tried or have anything to share about DIY'ing some sperical enclosures ala Orb or Gallo? 

Then you've got your pick of drivers.. The Orb are like $250 a pair and Galla A Diva Ti's are a bunch as well. Just wondering for giggles.. Looks like a good potential fun diy even if it turned out mediocre. What the heck. Worst case scenario.. good computer speaks and conversation piece. 

I though of a few possibles:
1. glassing a sphere w/ front baffle.
2. diy sandwiched mdf (break out the wood-working talents)
3. find some cute spherical item that fits the bill, and do some mods to make it enclosure-worthy.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Babs said:


> Resurrecting...
> 
> On the topic of a nice 3" full-range..... Being that the drivers are like silly inexpensive..
> 
> ...


The Gallo speakers sound excellent. There's a ton of distortion, due to the limited power handling, but they rise above it. They're an excellent demonstration that a speaker can have limited bandwidth and lots of distortion, and still sound very good.

I agree with Geddes, that diffraction is a bigger problem than distortion. (Spherical enclosures have vanishingly low diffraction.)


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Why all the distortion? Poor driver choice? (Granted I'm sure they're sourcing economically advantageous drivers). Not-so-optimum enclosure material/geometry?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Babs said:


> Why all the distortion? Poor driver choice? (Granted I'm sure they're sourcing economically advantageous drivers). Not-so-optimum enclosure material/geometry?


It's just an engineering trade-off when you try to squeeze a lot of bandwidth out of a loudspeaker. It's all but inescapable. You can have narrow bandwith and low distortion, or wide bandwidth and high distortion. Take your pick. Shorting rings and an underhung motor will improve things.

Here's a plot of a 3" TB woofer, with the distortion:










Here's a plot of the midrange I used in my 2001 Accord, which is an 8".

http://s139.photobucket.com/albums/...action=view&current=THD_96-102dB_14inches.jpg

You'll notice a couple things:

#1 - Distortion on the prosound 8" is over 20db lower than on the 3".
#2 - Efficiency on the prosound 8"is over 10db higher.

Combine those two things, you wind up with a mid that can play at least 20db louder before hitting the same levels of distortion. In real life the difference would probably be larger, as you'd have to compare both at the same SPL level to make and apples-to-apples comparison.

Bottom line - the more bandwidth you try to squeeze out of one driver, the higher the distortion, everything else being equal. Have you seen my Unity project? I'm basically cheating, approximating a single driver with five woofers on a waveguide.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Thanks.. For the education. 
Looking for your project.. No I haven't seen it.

Edit after seeing your link below.. wow!


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Babs said:


> Thanks.. For the education.
> Looking for your project.. No I haven't seen it.


I'm using four 2" tang band midranges on a waveguide:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio/60146-creating-perfect-soundstage.html

On a waveguide, the efficiency goes WAY up. Having busted out the voltmeter yet, but it appears to be at least 10db higher than a single unit. (theoretically it should be 6db louder, but that's on a flat baffle.)


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## armed (Mar 13, 2008)

nice read...

i think i got some work to do this weekend



this will save me a lot of money, work and time...
i will post some of my pics when i get mine


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Who's brave??
Gallo A'Diva Ti pair

... I would freakin' love to throw these in the car and see if they would be good for a good laugh and a salute.


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## JMachan (Jul 3, 2008)

no...who's REALLY brave...plasma tweeter...


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I'm using four 2" tang band midranges on a waveguide:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio/60146-creating-perfect-soundstage.html
> 
> On a waveguide, the efficiency goes WAY up. Having busted out the voltmeter yet, but it appears to be at least 10db higher than a single unit. (theoretically it should be 6db louder, but that's on a flat baffle.)


I want pics of the inside of the car as proofs.


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## armed (Mar 13, 2008)

just got mine today...
out the box..hooked it up on my old school FM Tuner

im surprised!

it sounds pretty good!!

theyre getting a work out right now...
ill leave it there until monday...and ill start with my build...
one thing i found out about it is...
it sounds pretty damn good on-axis






























they all working out...


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

that looks like a nice setup there.... should sound very good!


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Wow!.

Those things have some serious magnet on them.

What size enclosure are you guy's running these in?


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## armed (Mar 13, 2008)

i still dont know how to mount it....
a pillar or dash.....

i think i should say...i dont know how to mount it


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

I'm running mine in the pillars... right now sitting inside a foam block, supported on another foam block to get the right height/position and they are really nice... I've pointed each driver to be on axis towards the opposite seat and it images pretty well for both seats (about 8" from center for each seat, and pretty focused)


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> I want pics of the inside of the car as proofs.


tons of pics in the thread... haven't posted much this week bcuz work has been crazy


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## armed (Mar 13, 2008)

Sassmastersq said:


> I'm running mine in the pillars... right now sitting inside a foam block, supported on another foam block to get the right height/position and they are really nice... I've pointed each driver to be on axis towards the opposite seat and it images pretty well for both seats (about 8" from center for each seat, and pretty focused)


any pics man?

i was gonna mount it on axis..
on the corner....where the a pillar ends and meet the dash


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

I've found that mounting them on the same plane ( equal distance to your ear to the full range and to the midbass) works really well, makes for some odd mounting places, but the sound is very much more natural. I'll get pics up soon, once I have the A pillar enclosures done.


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## armed (Mar 13, 2008)

pictures?


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## RyanM923 (May 12, 2007)

You guys might want to try these out as well: Parts-Express.com:Tang Band W2-852SH 2" Shielded Driver | full range driver 2" woofer extended range driver tang band tb speakers tangband-41108

I had 32 of these little things maybe 2 years ago. I was going to use them in a line array for my home, but never got around to it. I did however mock up a little 4 speaker array just to give them a listen. I was quite surprised with how well they played with no crossover whatsoever. I can only imagine how much cleaner the midrange would sound if they were crossed at ~250hz. They also have the dust cap directly connected to the VC, so the upper end was VERY nice. They can be had on ebay pretty cheap from time to time as well. Also, listed xmax is 1mm, but xmech is a good 8-10mm P2P, so it's pretty hard to bottom these things out.

The more I talk about it the more I want to run them...


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

I was looking at getting eight of those Tang Bands for a set of computer speakers in the same configuration you mentioned.

I'll more than likely high pass them around 250ish and add a sub.


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## RyanM923 (May 12, 2007)

GlasSman said:


> I was looking at getting eight of those Tang Bands for a set of computer speakers in the same configuration you mentioned.
> 
> I'll more than likely high pass them around 250ish and add a sub.


I was thinking about doing a cluster of 4 in a square pattern and run them low in my pillars where my tweets currently are. I'd cross them hard at 250-400hz and probably run an 8" or 10" midbass in my doors. I'm just afraid that my stage is going to suffer running multiple 2" fullranges...


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## brianalexander (Aug 2, 2009)

i keep asking myself the same thign with my golf. i'm not sure which way to go...bag the components or upgrade em.


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