# is it better to run your subs up, down, or back



## jblw10gtimk11

some subs like the orion hcca say that you can only run the subs facing up or down. would this be better for all subs. you would think it would be better, being theres no so called side drag from the weight of the coil and cone when facing straight up or down. just my 2cents any opinons.


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## ryan s

DriverOrientation.pdf (application/pdf Object)


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## HondAudio

ryan s said:


> DriverOrientation.pdf (application/pdf Object)


Good link. What's your beef with Harbor Freight?


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## ryan s

How much time you got? :laugh:

They just make ****ty tools, across the board...not worth wasting money there. Even throwaway products like their paint brushes are worthless...


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## HondAudio

ryan s said:


> How much time you got? :laugh:
> 
> They just make ****ty tools, across the board...not worth wasting money there. Even throwaway products like their paint brushes are worthless...


<peter_griffin> Go on... </peter_griffin>


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## Sarthos

If you wanna get into it... it is a matter of physics and multivariable calculus to decide which way is best to fire your subs. I'm not familiar with the term "side drag" though.

Multivariable calc is the fun part... figuring out distances to different points on the body and how strong the soundwave will be when it reaches that point, then how strong the reflected wave will be and how far out of phase it will be with the incident wave. That's how you determine cancellation issues at least.

As for how you can mount it, unless the sub has an extremely weak frame, I have no idea why you couldn't mount it any direction you want.


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## trojan fan

ryan s said:


> How much time you got? :laugh:
> 
> They just make ****ty tools, across the board...not worth wasting money there. Even throwaway products like their paint brushes are worthless...



Such a blanket statement, I have 3 year old battery tender, that I paid $6 for, that still works as good as the day I bought it But you can't be too picky when you shop there


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## jblw10gtimk11

i was just wondering why orion says to only run there subs up or down, but then ive read a few forums say that some subs cant run up or down due to cone sag over time. i have jbl w10gtimk11 subs and i was wondering if there is a better way for say my sub to fire. is there a actual difference, will fireing a sub a certain way make it last longer, or not last as long. im not talking about orientation of a sub and how it sounds fireing in a certain direction. thanx for the replies though


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## OSN

The better question is why does Orion sell subs that are called High Current Competition Amplifier.


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## fish

jblw10gtimk11 said:


> i was just wondering why orion says to only run there subs up or down, but then ive read a few forums say that some subs cant run up or down due to cone sag over time. i have jbl w10gtimk11 subs and i was wondering if there is a better way for say my sub to fire. is there a actual difference, will fireing a sub a certain way make it last longer, or not last as long. im not talking about orientation of a sub and how it sounds fireing in a certain direction. thanx for the replies though


I'd PM Andy W. & see what he has to say.

Plus, I think woofer sag happens over a long period of time, so if you plan on changing out your sub in the near future then I don't think it matters much.


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## ryan s

HondAudio said:


> <peter_griffin> Go on... </peter_griffin>


A "discarded" Matco impact could do in 30 seconds (with 50-60psi in the tank) what a "Central Pneumatic" gun couldn't do in 10 minutes with 90psi in the tank...33 gallon compressor, so this isn't a tiny one for pumping up tires.

I also absolutely despise "Tool Shop" stuff from Menard's. The $10 Skil jigsaw I picked up from a garage sale is a Bosch compared to the Menard's one :mean:


trojan fan said:


> Such a blanket statement, I have 3 year old battery tender, that I paid $6 for, that still works as good as the day I bought it But you can't be too picky when you shop there


It's a blanket statement since I've used a good portion (and cross-section) of their tools...and seen some fail quite spectacularly :laugh: Ever had a car jacked up with the blue and silver aluminum "racing" jack...and had the handle break? That's a good time...

And I hooked up that same battery tender on my dad's tractor battery...it's trickling even now 


fish said:


> I'd PM Andy W. & see what he has to say.
> 
> Plus, I think woofer sag happens over a long period of time, so if you plan on changing out your sub in the near future then I don't think it matters much.


I think what the OP was getting after (not only cone sag) was what if the voice coil had a more "even" magnetic field...like if gravity wasn't pulling on the lower half of a vertical driver's coil? As if: Flip a driver on its back, and gravity would be even all the way around.

But that's what the magnetic gap is for...keeping the coil centered.

Well that was just a general observation, not really meant towards anyone in particular :laugh:


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## jblw10gtimk11

A couple people on youtube ran there orion hcca subs facing the rear of the car, and next thing they knew the top finned pole piece above the topplate flew right threw the front of there cone. literally blew a hole right threw the cone. I know this wont happen to my jbls, but is there a better way to run your subs. whats best for a sub to fire, up, down, or regular. just something ive been thinking about. Thanx for your replies guys. ps. harbor freight tools are ok for certain light duty jobs, and a occasionally make some good stuff. There is prolly more junk than good. Everyone cant afford snap on, or even craftsman tools sometimes, but then again you always pay for what you get.lol


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## HondAudio

I bought a doweling jig at Harbor Freight a couple of weeks ago. It cost about 13 bucks. The [visually] identical unit at Woodworkers' Source was 50 bucks. I'm not going to pick that one up in order to do a comparison, and, frankly, I don't need to.

I buy certain tools at Harbor Freight when I can't find them anywhere else. An 18-piece hole saw set for $9.99? That is IMPOSSIBLE to find anywhere else at that price.

I know they're not military- or industrial-grade, and I don't expect them to be - I'm looking for value.


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## Cruzer

i love habor freights. i use the $20 nail gun to do my sub boxes, best $20 i spent. bam bam done, wait for it to dry


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## Niebur3

Is this a thread about Harbor Freight or sub orientation??? lol


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## edouble101

I never heard of this sub mounting issue.


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## jblw10gtimk11

take a look at this video. YouTube - HCCA Blew Up its the orion sub i was talking about, that blew the pole piece heat sink, right threw the front of the cone. Orion says this is 1 of the reasons they say to rub there sub up or down.


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## n_olympios

jblw10gtimk11 said:


> take a look at this video. YouTube - HCCA Blew Up its the orion sub i was talking about, that blew the pole piece heat sink, right threw the front of the cone. Orion says this is 1 of the reasons they say to rub there sub up or down.


This sounds like a poorly designed sub to me.


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## OSN

troof


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## subwoofery

n_olympios said:


> This sounds like a poorly designed sub to me.


^ second that. Can't believe that happens when the sub is not facing up or down. Seems stupid to me. 

Cone sag can be calculated (see the driver oriantation .pdf) but I don't see this to be a problem for "most" subs. 
I feel that driver orientation is mostly vehicle related. Hatchback, SUV, Trucks, Sedans, etc... Fun thing is you can't guess, you have to experiment. 

Kelvin


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## jblw10gtimk11

My twin bro was wanting to get 2 of the new oriom hcca 10in with the black cone, which are the same as the subs in the video, only with the blacks cones. Since i i got my 2 new jbl w10gtimk11 subs, my brother wants to out do me, and wanted the orions, but now hes changed his mine. thanx for da replies. i still want to know if there is actually a way to mount a sub , thats better for it.


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## jblw10gtimk11

Hey andy from jbl, can you chime in on this. Thanx fo da info guys. Just want to know, so i can put another wrinkle in my brain lol.


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## Hillbilly SQ

My Harbor Freight heat gun is awesome Other than that I only use them for hand tools that are big and bulky that won't be use more than a couple times. My little 2 ton jack stands are handy too.


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## asawendo

OSN said:


> The better question is why does Orion sell subs that are called High Current Competition Amplifier.


Maybe for matching with their HCCA Amps or maybe just for marketing reason 

Best Regards

Wendo


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## Gary S

The Orion subs are very high quality for the price... they were probably pushing the sub beyond it's limit.

Some sub spiders can sag over time if mounted up or down. others won't.

If there are differences in the forward or backward throw of a woofer, mounting one forward and one reverse might cancel that type of distortion where you have a pair of woofers installed.


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## papabearsc

I thought HCCA was High Current Competition Audio? 

oh well...harbor freight sucks!!


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## jblw10gtimk11

I know orion are very high quality subs. The question is, why does orion say in there manual not to run there subs any other way but facing up, and is there actually a better way to face your sub so it has less strain on the sub, and will last longer.


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## The Baron Groog

From my understanding:

Firing towards rear of the car gives better low output due to increased path length (lower the freq the longer the wavelength)

Firing across the car gives best SQ-though unsure why

Firing towards front of car best SPL-though again unsure why

Up-can use the roof/rear screen of the car to load the woofers off and give a "horn like effect"

Down-loads the woofers against the floor

In the "spider sag" thread there is a link to a site that allows you to work out whether your driver's compliance is high enough to mount it face down/up using the T/S parameters


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## bendow

but what about in a boat? no cabin gain. I'm going to install my ported sub under the console firing at the fiberglass hull. Under the console is enclosed on 3 sides...I'm not sure how well this will work


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## sgayol

I can say that every vehicle and installation has benefited from different firing directions. What I usually do is find a cheapie box and place it in different places firing in different directions and just listen. This is much easier for my feeble mind to deal with than multi-var calc that I haven't touched since high-school! Every installation has its nuances that make a universal recommendation useless I think imo


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## Brian10962001

Looks to me like Orion needs to spend a little more money on their glue, not skate out of warranty work by saying "they have to aim up or down, sorry". That's like selling a car and saying "You can't drive it on the interstate sorry".


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## speakertime

I can't imagine that it matters...JL sells their stealth boxes with subs up, down and sideways. I think box design is more crucial...that's my $.02


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## Tweeky

I've heard that you want your port to fire the same direction as your drivers. Not sure if true, but I built a box with subs firing rearward and ports upward and it sounded like hammered crap.


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## GlasSman

Tweeky said:


> I've heard that you want your port to fire the same direction as your drivers. Not sure if true, but I built a box with subs firing rearward and ports upward and it sounded like hammered crap.


Did you verify that the enclosure was tuned to whatever the sub is happy with?

Thats the most important thing in ported enclosure performance.


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## Brian Steele

jblw10gtimk11 said:


> I know orion are very high quality subs. The question is, why does orion say in there manual not to run there subs any other way but facing up, and is there actually a better way to face your sub so it has less strain on the sub, and will last longer.


From the Orion manual: "Please Note: Due to the extremely long excursion and high temperature possibilities of this woofer, it is recommended that when the woofer is installed it be positioned so that the cone either faces upward or downward only."

I'm not sure what temperature has to do with it, but perhaps the concern is around the weight of that long coil pulling it out of alignment, which may lead to it hitting the pole or another part of the magnet structure and getting damaged.


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## GlasSman

Brian Steele said:


> From the Orion manual: "Please Note: Due to the extremely long excursion and high temperature possibilities of this woofer, it is recommended that when the woofer is installed it be positioned so that the cone either faces upward or downward only."
> 
> I'm not sure what temperature has to do with it, but perhaps the concern is around the weight of that long coil pulling it out of alignment, which may lead to it hitting the pole or another part of the magnet structure and getting damaged.



My understanding is that those instructions are for when the sub is used in an SPL type install.....that absolute extremes of the subs usage.


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## Brian10962001

They have a bullet like heat sink at the top of the pole piece. When the sub sits sideways this thing slides off and slams out of the dustcap. They should just bolt it in there and it would never be an issue. If you look it up on Youtube you can find guys who have had that piece come off and bust out of their dust cap, these are in daily driven installs (which I honestly think often take as much or more abuse as SPL cars  )


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