# Most people don't like loud music ???



## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Really ? Ya' think ?

We went to a Christian rock concert last night and it was freaking phenomenal !  Zach Williams... who is basically Southern Rock, and Country influenced (since Christian is not really a Genre.. I've heard Christian music that was too heavy metal for me  lol)
So it was in a church that seated about 1000. Were were center stage, about 6 rows back. The crowd was all age groups from kids, to 70's.. maybe even a few 80's ! More 20-30's though.
Now, as I said, the sound was fantastic. Great separation, and lots of clean power. The thing that really got me though, was that being a guy that sits in the cab of a vehicle with an 18" sub and 3Kwts on a regular basis, even to me, that bass was LOUD and solid ! I kept looking at the gray haired folks in front of me and couldn't believe they could handle it ! 

And another thing... Why won't my GF let me play my truck stereo that loud when she's with me ? 

I wanted to ask all these people, "Now come on, why wouldn't you want this in your car" ?  lol THIS is why _everyone_ who loves music needs a high powered car audio (or home) stereo system 

BTW, Zach Williams lives and records in Nashville, the Music Capitol of the US. And his recording are _fantastic_ as well. Great for demo's 

That was SO awesome !
Still stoked


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## Muu (Jan 22, 2020)

Dynamics i suppose, the loudness war meant lots of compression in mastered music. Live stuff tends to have lots of transients, so you can get a high SPL kick to the chest from the bass drum without the fatigue of an overall loudness.


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## vic1184 (Oct 11, 2021)

Muu said:


> Dynamics i suppose, the loudness war meant lots of compression in mastered music. Live stuff tends to have lots of transients, so you can get a high SPL kick to the chest from the bass drum without the fatigue of an overall loudness.


There's this weird flex that when everything is loud, nothing is. So you end up turning the volume knob up more and more to get the "kick", but you end up listening to a massive wall of sound that doesn't sound good nor loud.


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## figgie (May 19, 2010)

Not while driving.. i like to hear what is going on with my car from road noise, engine and turbo.

I usually hear stuff while cruising that no gauge will pick up like a speed dependent flutter that was not there, which on new cars that are sealed pretty good, means a wire hanging out the door and the little USB cable letting air in.


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## Muu (Jan 22, 2020)

There is a guy on YouTube called Dan Worrall who covers loudness from a mix / mastering engineer perspective.

People crafted louder and louder mixes at the expense of dynamics / transients / headroom. The ubiquitous radio mix.

I work in TV and it was a big issue with adverts during drama & films especially where the adverts would be hideously loud. The old weighted VU meter didn't cut it, so we defined the LU (loudness unit) measured from full scale - lufs for short. This gives you a value that's better aligned to the perceived loudness.

The joke now is most streaming services normalise to -14lufs so you can pump your mixes to like -8lufs but you'll just get 6db docked by the streaming provider and all you've done is reduced your true peak by 6db. Mastering engineers know this, and aim for -14 now.


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## Jheitt142 (Dec 7, 2011)

Muu said:


> There is a guy on YouTube called Dan Worrall who covers loudness from a mix / mastering engineer perspective.
> 
> People crafted louder and louder mixes at the expense of dynamics / transients / headroom. The ubiquitous radio mix.
> 
> ...


ok but what does it all mean basil? what do us humans do? 

i find my over all volume is lower then before but everything is better. its still loud, just not noisy?


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## Muu (Jan 22, 2020)

Step 1 - get a decent source like Tidal, you'll be shocked how much deeper the music is over Spotify etc

Step 2 - get it cleanly out of the source ideally at the max bit rate and bit depth you can. Android for example resamples everything to 48k, so you might want to look at tidal native player / DAC.

Step 3 - get your gain structure right, plenty of headroom in there.

My 2c, it's a pretty universal set of rules though... Clean signal, keep it clean


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## Jheitt142 (Dec 7, 2011)

Muu said:


> Step 1 - get a decent source like Tidal, you'll be shocked how much deeper the music is over Spotify etc


how many bloody subscription services to i need? spotify, tidal, netflix, amazon, disney plus, crave.


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## Muu (Jan 22, 2020)

Trade Spotify for Tidal hi-fi


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## Jheitt142 (Dec 7, 2011)

Muu said:


> Trade Spotify for Tidal hi-fi


hold on i'll ask my wife 🤣 💀


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## PaperLion (Aug 15, 2019)

Even Tidal HiFi has a lot of loudness variance. There is even a volume leveling option, but I don't like it.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Jheitt142 said:


> how many bloody subscription services to i need? spotify, tidal, netflix, amazon, disney plus, crave.


None (if you want truly uncompressed bit perfect audio.) My kids use Apple Music cause they're Apple snobs who can't break their iPhone addiction and don't care about quality. My wife and I use Amazon cause it's free with Prime and better than Sirius XM. For demos and critical listening all my music is downloaded from HDTracks in WAV format at 24/48 or better. 

As with most things in life - you get what you pay for - music is no different. 

As for the OP - having worked in large scale live audio for 3 decades and either contracted, advised, worked in production or participated in live Progressive Christian Music for the last decade - and let me preface this with; its been my observation that people will tolerate live music with the energy associated with a live performance much more than the recorded version. If you get involved in the new Christian Praise Music Scene there's been a prevailing sentiment that's coming from the Pastoral/Clergy level who are mostly in their 40s and 50s like us who grew up with a friend or family member who had 2 x 15s in their hatchback that the overall average SPL be limited to a certain OSHA managed exposure level that's measured from an A-Weighted (ignores bass) perspective. They don't care what you do with the "Bass Knob" (and yes - I've been asked to setup Churches with that very thing) and the result is chest crushing, vision blurring, bass levels that most National Touring Acts would never allow simply due to the fact that it can get hard to distinguish the vocals (but then most Churches scroll the lyrics as well) with that much bass. 

The new digital consoles with their automixes and built in effects/ compression mean that you rarely get a fully uncompressed concert unless you're at a mega church with a full time production crew and audio engineer but it's still much less compressed than the studio version and not subjected to the vagaries of digital compression and format conversion. Then the self powered, full dsp built in, PA speakers that have their own protection means you can't drive them into distortion unless the signal you're sending them is distorted before hand and it all adds up to a much higher SPL capability for transients and energy than the old days where you got killed by feedback way before you got to those levels. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Muu (Jan 22, 2020)

Interesting insights on the live church world, not something I've ever experienced


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Jheitt142 said:


> how many bloody subscription services to i need? spotify, tidal, netflix, amazon, disney plus, crave.


How about just using lossless files on a usb drive? Everyone seems to forget about the "old" way that works without needing the internet and all of the compromises that come with internet dependence.


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## Jheitt142 (Dec 7, 2011)

ckirocz28 said:


> How about just using lossless files on a usb drive? Everyone seems to forget about the "old" way that works without needing the internet and all of the compromises that come with internet dependence.


I guess just that i never use a computer, aside from WINISD.


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Really ? Ya' think ?
> 
> We went to a Christian rock concert last night and it was freaking phenomenal !  Zach Williams... who is basically Southern Rock, and Country influenced (since Christian is not really a Genre.. I've heard Christian music that was too heavy metal for me  lol)
> So it was in a church that seated about 1000. Were were center stage, about 6 rows back. The crowd was all age groups from kids, to 70's.. maybe even a few 80's ! More 20-30's though.
> ...


if you are ever near McClellan on Dudley during the day, turn your system up and drive by core and main, that is where I work, Its across the street from the runway, I wanna hear your system


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Lou Frasier2 said:


> if you are ever near McClellan on Dudley during the day, turn your system up and drive by core and main, that is where I work, Its across the street from the runway, I wanna hear your system


I'd be glad to swing by there sometime, and give you a demo  Shoot me a PM. I think the truck sounds good... but not really that loud. I mean, it depends on the recording, but I'm a stickler for backing off at the first red flicker on my clip indicator.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

I think a lot of it has to do if you are really like the songs. My GF and I both love live music.

She says that I listen to the same songs mostly from the 80s and 90s. She rarely lets me get the volume over 10 out of 40.

But she listens to newly recorded Alternative Indy Rock that most of the songs are very poorly recorded that I can't stand to listen to them. So we are back down to 10 out of 40 on the volume knob & on some of her songs, I would really like to just turn the system off.

When it is a song that we both like then magically the volume quickly goes up to concert level volumes.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

KillerBox said:


> I think a lot of it has to do if you are really like the songs. My GF and I both love live music.
> 
> She says that I listen to the same songs mostly from the 80s and 90s. She rarely lets me get the volume over 10 out of 40.
> 
> ...


Well I'm sure their is some truth to that. But my GF and I enjoy a lot of the same music, so typically when we are out in the truck together (as we were earlier) I switch the Bluetooth to her phone and let her pick the music. When it's a song I really like, or a cool sounding recording, I'll crank it up to 20 or 24... But certainly never the 32-34 I'll crank it to when I'm out by myself 😄


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Can't ever get my lady to listen to my volume levels. She will, but she gets that reflexive grimace that shows she's trying to let me be happy, but it's bothering her. Can't really let that go on. I love that girl.


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

y wife does not like music loud, so when she is not with me I like listening to my horns,8 inch mid bass and my 18 at a fairly loud volume,of course d.r.i needs to be listened to at high volumes


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Muu said:


> Step 1 - get a decent source like Tidal, you'll be shocked how much deeper the music is over Spotify etc
> 
> Step 2 - get it cleanly out of the source ideally at the max bit rate and bit depth you can. Android for example resamples everything to 48k, so you might want to look at tidal native player / DAC.
> 
> ...


On Android devices, you can install the *USB Audio Player Pro* app by *extreamsd*. It is a self-contained music player app, but you can stream Tidal HiFi from _*within*_ this app. This is significant because *UAPP* has developed its own bit-perfect NOS audio kernel for Android which bypasses and replaces the stock Android audio kernel that normally downsamples or resamples everything to 48kHz (for compatibilty with video).

With *UAPP* you can play your Hi-Res or Standard music files at their native bit depth and sample rates through an Android device that is connected to a USB DAC (by using a USB "OTG" cable) connected to the Android smartphone or tablet's data/charging port.

Some portable DAPs that use the Android OS also have their own proprietary music player apps that do the same thing as *UAPP*, but Tidal streaming is done through the normal Tidal app. On most of these DAPs you can also install *UAPP *if the DAP supports the Google Play store or by "side-loading" the app via an *apk* (Android application package) file.

Regarding our tolerance for high listening levels, it all depends on the type of music, and your personal tolerances for loudness and SPL, along with the "environment" or circumstances under which you are listening.

For instance, if one of your neighbors has a weekend party with a live band or DJ that continues to get louder and louder as the night goes on, well, the party goers are obviously loving it and having a good time! But depending on if you like the music that is being played or not, and it might be rattling your windows, you may love it and easily tolerate it.

But, if you really don't like the music, AND you aren't immersed in the same festivities or experience that party goers are, it is most likely going to bother you or drive you nuts and you'll be reaching for the phone to call the police, LOL.

So our toleration of the music or "noise" levels is situation-dependent. Naturally, if you like let's say, RATM, you're going to crank it up and enjoy it, while your neighbor or the car next to you might be like, WTF Man, Turn it DOWN !!!???

Regarding amplified/PA system Live music, your tolerance is usually higher because you are immersed in the real-world "experience" along with your other senses, and the "energy" of the people and music at the venue. This is especially true if you really like the artist and music, and the house/venue system is "clean" and balanced, especially in the midrange and treble...i.e. a really good FOH engineer. Intense bass isn't all that offensive to us unless it is obviously fully distorted, but some people (especially women) are more sensitive to high SPL, especially bass. But of course these high levels can still cause hearing damage.

Both of my sisters are very sensitive to bass, and high SPL in general, even though it may not bother them when they are the ones producing it, LOL. One plays classical piano, which can get very loud, especially when combined with a large orchestra that is playing a "heavy" piece of music that has lots of _fff_. My other sister is a classical and folk guitarist, and she is the most sensitive, particularly to loud bass, but also excessive treble...and also sensitive/annoyed by me playing the drums when I was a kid.  LOL.'

And they are both sensitive to and able to detect distortion very early on. I think that they may have developed more of an ear for pleasing natural harmonics, and they can easily tell when those harmonics are not right. Whereas for me, I would most likely not begin to hear the distortion until it is well into the fundamental tones.

For reference, here is a chart of average hearing loss with age. You can see why older people at the concert might not be so bothered by the high SPL...especially when taking the Fletcher-Munson curve into consideration.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Hey, speaking of loud music... We went to our local theater (its a new one, which for other movies we have seen, has fantastic sound, and BASS!) 
It was kind of a cross between a regular movie, and a musical, with a bunch of the Christian artists we listen too. The mids were loud, but SO clean, and smooth.... but it definitely needed more treble, and a LOT more bass ! I was kind of surprised, as the groups that did a lot of the music, have freaking awesome recording with TONS of treble and LOUD bass too ! Anyway, the mids were plenty loud, and could not have sounded nicer. Hmmm. I know the sound system in this theater is capable of it. What do you think happened here ?


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