# Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"



## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

Wondering about keeping my HAT Imagines, which I have had for years, as I switch vehicles. The Imagines have always sounded a touch cold to me, so I've been considering Morels, which have a reputation for being warm, or another speaker with a similar sound. It could be all kinds of other factors that led me to think the Imagines are cold and it isn't the speaker's fault. But my experience in other audio is that the material/design of the speakers and electronics disposes them to either on the cold (Infinity, Klipsch, solid state) side or warm (Boston Acoustic, Vandersteen, tubes) side. 

I've never heard a DSP, so I wondering if it can "warm up" a cold sound. I realize that it can change the output at various frequencies, and likely what I imagine is cold vs warm is somehow a product of that. But I'd guess that the effect of, say, a metal dome vs. fabric dome is more complex and subtle than can be overcome with electronics.

If the Imagines can be transformed to warm speakers with a good DSP, I'd keep them. Otherwise, I'll sell them. Thanks in advance for replies -- it really helps someone in my position.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

this should be a very fun thread!

my thoughts are this. you are correct in that cold vs warm is a frequency response thing..warmer is said to have more midbass and less upper mid and lower tweeter range..and because of that a dsp can certainly do that. I think people will have a ball arguing this point, but lets see if theres some reasoned opinions about this, because I know what I've done to make this work by boosting certain frequencies and cutting others, but others may have ideas better or just different..which is interesting too.


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

Lycancatt said:


> this should be a very fun thread!
> 
> Thanks. I'm just picturing the way that a sound wave is generated by one kind of material vs. another. There have to be all sorts of artifacts in the way the vibration emerges from one material and different artifacts for another. I am guessing that it would be hard, or even impossible, to account for these differences with a DSP, which can only adjust the volume of various frequencies, not fundamentally transform their complex shapes.
> 
> A rough analogy: You can make a lemon taste sweeter with sugar, but it's never going to taste like an orange. Or maybe I don't know enough about either food science or audio to make such a claim.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

mr.gone said:


> Lycancatt said:
> 
> 
> > this should be a very fun thread!
> ...


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

Pretty much what Lycancatt and SkizeR have mentioned.

If you're 1) starting with decent equipment that doesn't have a fundamental flaw and 2) you're using it as intended (like not trying to use a typical 6" driver full-range without a tweeter) then you can do quite a bit with a DSP. There are tons of things you cannot do with DSP, but changing the overall warm/cold impression that a speaker gives you is absolutely possible if you keep in mind the two caveats I mentioned earlier (which I think Lycancatt and SkizeR were hinting at too too).


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

In a musicians deffinition WARM describes the midbass area, 100-220hz area. 


Nick is the material don't matter why give me such crap about the aluminum cone? 
Btw you got me wanting to drop a grand on some dyna or morels now. Thanks bud


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> mr.gone said:
> 
> 
> > That's not exactly how it works. But first things first, yes you should be able to eq your speakers to sound like most adjectives people use to describe speakers. Thing is, minus eq the cars interior and install has more of an effect on the overall sound than the speaker itself does. As for the material.. while they're still in their pistonic range they will sound the same all else being equal. They start to sound different when cone modes kick in. The stiffer the material, the later/intense the cone breakup is. Vice versa for softer material. Long story short, up until frequencies that are higher than the particular speaker should be playing, don't worry about the cone material. There is MUCH more to a speaker than that. The analogy doesn't exactly work like your thinking it does
> ...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

mr.gone said:


> SkizeR said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting. Thanks. I can picture that with a woofer, but a tweeter is harder to picture. I guess they have "excursion," but I don't think of them sounding different only when hitting some maximum volume. They seem to sound different than one another even at very low levels.
> ...


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

With high frequencies the car plays a big role. Reflections. I get a 3db bump on my drivers side from the steering column. And it reflects it into the plastic on my sun visor.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I doubt many people could identify a speaker by its coloring. Heck I have a hard time hearing 10% THD with music.


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> mr.gone said:
> 
> 
> > I'm saying that when eq'd to the same response, speakers will sound very similar. The differences you would hear would just be the different distortion profiles.
> ...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

mr.gone said:


> SkizeR said:
> 
> 
> > So as long as you're not playing them louder than they're designed to handle or the amp can support, different speakers can be made to sound alike, right?
> ...


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> I doubt many people could identify a speaker by its coloring. Heck I have a hard time hearing 10% THD with music.


I've spent a lot of time auditioning home speakers in setups where they're getting the same signals and they sound vastly different. I'm pretty sure I could tell you whether something was a Paradigm or a B&W or a Cerwin-Vega blindfolded.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

*Re: Can a DSP make &amp;quot;cold&amp;quot; speakers sound &amp;quot;warm?&amp;quot;*



DC/Hertz said:


> In a musicians deffinition WARM describes the midbass area, 100-220hz area.
> 
> 
> Nick is the material don't matter why give me such crap about the aluminum cone?
> Btw you got me wanting to drop a grand on some dyna or morels now. Thanks bud


Read the rest of my post. I've also told you a few times already. I guess nothing sticks 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

mr.gone said:


> SkizeR said:
> 
> 
> > So as long as you're not playing them louder than they're designed to handle or the amp can support, different speakers can be made to sound alike, right?
> ...


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> mr.gone said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, but there's other factors that make different speakers better than others for various applications
> ...


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

*Re: Can a DSP make &amp;quot;cold&amp;quot; speakers sound &amp;quot;warm?&amp;quot;*



SkizeR said:


> Read the rest of my post. I've also told you a few times already. I guess nothing sticks
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I'm old and drugged up on pain killers... but I do also know how bias you are.
You also shot yourself in the foot often.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

The jargon associated with this hobby can be a nightmare, since things like "warm," "bright," "cold," etc. don't have an objective meaning, we need to define them before we start talking about them. 

One common description of "warm" is a frequency response that favors low frequencies more than high frequencies. This can absolutely be changed with DSP. However, another common description of "warm" comes from distortion, like SkizerR has mentioned. This cannot be changed with DSP. So, it's important to understand what a person means by "warm." 

By the way, people like distortion. even order distortion is what makes tube amps sound so pleasing. Many people dislike low distortion subwoofers because they don't sound as loud. The extra harmonics give a sound that is perceived as fuller, and louder.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

*Re: Can a DSP make &amp;quot;cold&amp;quot; speakers sound &amp;quot;warm?&amp;quot;*



DC/Hertz said:


> I'm old and drugged up on pain killers... but I do also know how bias you are.


Your right. Aluminum made fun of me as a kid so now I never suggest it for a 2 way 6.5

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Music can also have distortion recorded or played into it. 
But warm only means one thing, midbass.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

*Re: Can a DSP make &amp;quot;cold&amp;quot; speakers sound &amp;quot;warm?&amp;quot;*



SkizeR said:


> Your right. Aluminum made fun of me as a kid so now I never suggest it for a 2 way 6.5
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


You have to say it with a British accent or it don't count.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

DC/Hertz said:


> Music can also have distortion recorded or played into it.
> But warm only means one thing, midbass.


Oh really? So, by your definition there is no such thing as a warm, or bright tweeter, since they don't play midbass.

None of this jargon means anything. Frequency response graphs mean something, "warm" and "bright" are ambiguous.


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

gijoe said:


> The jargon associated with this hobby can be a nightmare, since things like "warm," "bright," "cold," etc. don't have an objective meaning, we need to define them before we start talking about them.
> 
> One common description of "warm" is a frequency response that favors low frequencies more than high frequencies. This can absolutely be changed with DSP. However, another common description of "warm" comes from distortion, like SkizerR has mentioned. This cannot be changed with DSP. So, it's important to understand what a person means by "warm."
> 
> By the way, people like distortion. even order distortion is what makes tube amps sound so pleasing. Many people dislike low distortion subwoofers because they don't sound as loud. The extra harmonics give a sound that is perceived as fuller, and louder.


I guess this is what I meant by "artifacts" -- something less than a pristine signal that can affect our response to what we're hearing. I know that tube amps are favored by many for their distorting effects. And I seem to recall articles that talked about how two pair of speakers can have very similar graphic outputs but sound different. 

All of this leads me to think that DSPs can be very effective in taming the undesirable elements of a speaker and its interactions with a car's environment, but they can't create the pleasing distortions that a speaker lacks because of its design.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> But warm only means one thing, midbass.


not really.. but then again, thats whats wrong with subjective terms


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

mr.gone said:


> All of this leads me to think that DSPs can be very effective in taming the undesirable elements of a speaker and its interactions with a car's environment


thats the point of them




mr.gone said:


> but they can't create the pleasing distortions that a speaker lacks because of its design.


you dont want that. and if you do just get a tube preamp or even the head unit that i have


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

gijoe said:


> Oh really? So, by your definition there is no such thing as a warm, or bright tweeter, since they don't play midbass.
> 
> None of this jargon means anything. Frequency response graphs mean something, "warm" and "bright" are ambiguous.


It's not my definition. It's what it is. 
The rest is somebody trying to describe something wrong.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> It's not my definition. It's what it is.
> The rest is somebody trying to describe something wrong.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Crap


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

SkizeR said:


>


I sent it to you on facebook


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

im aware of what photo it is and what it says. problem with that photo is that boosting 200 wont just go and make my setup sound warmer. theres more to it


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

DC/Hertz said:


> It's not my definition. It's what it is.
> The rest is somebody trying to describe something wrong.


That little chart that you pulled from google images is nothing more than one person's way of describing how we perceive different frequencies, it is by no means a definition.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Agree. Just emphasising the real deffinition. 
Bright tweeters are not warm. I think that would fall under piercing.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

gijoe said:


> That little chart that you pulled from google images is nothing more than one person's way of describing how we perceive different frequencies, it is by no means a definition.


So you are trying to dismiss it? Or how about actually studing it and understanding it... you will find out it is quite valid with musician terminology.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

DC/Hertz said:


> Agree. Just emphasising the real deffinition.
> Bright tweeters are not warm. I think that would fall under piercing.


Tweeters cannot be warm, ever, according to your logic.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gijoe said:


> according to your logic.


thats the problem here.. your assuming derek uses logic


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

You can argue it all you want. In a musical deffinition no they can't be warm. They can be something else that fits thier bandwidth. But it's not warm.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> You can argue it all you want. In a musical deffinition no they can't be warm. They can be something else that fits thier bandwidth. But it's not warm.


so your saying that chart is end-all-be-all?


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I have personally done some research on it and yes it has been verified.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

that actually made me laugh


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

How about this. Cheeky ultimate demo cd. He talks about warmth he is referring to the bass guitar. Check that out and come back and laugh some more. One day y'all will start listening to me.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> One day y'all will start listening to me.


no we wont.


either way, at the end of the day the term is still subjective. there is no real "tangible" definition to it


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## CSEmoses (Dec 15, 2010)

holy ****, DC/Hertz and Skizer you two need your own forum where only you two can post back and forth arguing about threads that are created in the general forum. Every thread that seems like it will be interesting seems to turn into you two arguing. You must be really good friends IRL or something.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

DC/Hertz said:


> How about this. Cheeky ultimate demo cd. He talks about warmth he is referring to the bass guitar. Check that out and come back and laugh some more. One day y'all will start listening to me.


Again, all you are doing is referencing someone's personal definition. The point is that a lot of ambiguous jargon gets thrown around in this community, and we need to understand what is meant. 

How would you the sound of a tube amp with a lot of even order harmonic distortion? I can find you a bunch of links with people referring to the sound as "warm" if you'd like.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm pretty sure David Cheesky is a good resource of information when it comes to this subject. 
Btw about the tubes. I can find you plenty of links that show they sound the same as any other amp.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

DC/Hertz said:


> I'm pretty sure David Cheesky is a good resource of information when it comes to this subject.
> Btw about the tubes. I can find you plenty of links that show they sound the same as any other amp.


My god you are dense, and completely missing the point. Or, maybe you get the point, but won't admit it. If we can find claims of tube amps sound "warm" and other claims saying they sound the same as any other amp, wouldn't that make it obviously subjective?

I've made my point, no sense taking this any further. Audiophile jargon is ambiguous and there is no single definition for most of the terms that get thrown around.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm dense. Ok. Maybe one day you will meet knowledgeable bass player and they will be able to explain it to you. And you can turn around and tell them they are full of crap.

It's only jargon if you let it be.


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

gijoe said:


> Again, all you are doing is referencing someone's personal definition. The point is that a lot of ambiguous jargon gets thrown around in this community, and we need to understand what is meant.
> 
> How would you the sound of a tube amp with a lot of even order harmonic distortion? I can find you a bunch of links with people referring to the sound as "warm" if you'd like.


Here's what I mean by "cold" and its related property, "harsh:" Trumpets that squeal and bite and attack relentlessly. Synthesizers that scratch your eardrums. Vocals that seem to come only from the mouth, not the entire body. Guitars in which you can hear the string pluck more than the underlying harmonic. Violins that seem shrill.

Here's what I mean by "warm:" Trumpets that pop but don't offend. Synthesizers that gurgle pleasantly. Vocals that are full and human. Guitars that give you a sense of the way their bodies resonate with the vibrating strings. Violins that are sweet.

Of course, warm can go too far and turn into "muted" or "mush." And "cold" can have elements of "detailed" that are appreciated. 

I really don't care what the graphics look like to convey warm -- weather it's a midrange bump or a reduction in overextended highs or whatever. I just want a system that I can play music through and not feel within 15 minutes that it's time to switch to a podcast because I am suffering that all-too-familiar response to cold/harsh speakers: listener fatigue.

Is that clear enough?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

mr.gone said:


> Here's what I mean by "warm:" Trumpets that pop but don't offend. Synthesizers that gurgle pleasantly. Vocals that are full and human. Guitars that give you a sense of the way their bodies resonate with the vibrating strings. Violins that are sweet.


WRONG! warm only means a peak in the 200hz area as already stated by our friend :laugh:


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Instead of talking crap why don't you dig in and try to define what he is saying accurately. Maybe that will start to advance the jargon


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Maybe fatiguing and realistic.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> Instead of talking crap why don't you dig in and try to define what he is saying accurately. Maybe that will start to advance the jargon


advanced jargon is even worse than basic jargon.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I don't know what you guys are on about? Frequency response? Distortion profiles? 

His Imagines will NEVER sound warm. Dude is in Minnesota!


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

It has to start somewhere. There was a time when everyone thought the earth was flat. 
People thought 8s are faster then 18s. 
And some still do think the earth is flat.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

so, we learned 2 things today. we can for the most part change frequency response to give us almost any desired sound signature, and opiates are bad


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Bruh. I feel like I did during my crazy teenage years. They have me on freaking percs and morhpine patches. I'm a hyper zombie.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> Bruh. I feel like I did during my crazy teenage years. They have me on freaking percs and morhpine patches. I'm a hyper zombie.


really? you dont seem very different


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Well thanks. You are just as adorable as always.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

*Re: Can a DSP make &quot;cold&quot; speakers sound &quot;warm?&quot;*



DC/Hertz said:


> It has to start somewhere. There was a time when everyone thought the earth was flat.
> People thought 8s are faster then 18s.
> And some still do think the earth is flat.


Now the world is round... Wrong!

It's a geoid  That'll throw those flat thinkers 

Threads are more fun with you and Skizer in them. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

I came in here to see what the experts are saying and this what what I find?? Sad day on DIYMA.

OP, can you post a Frequency Response of your system from the drivers seat? 1/6 octave would be helpful. You can use the crappy phone mic or invest $50-100 in something decent. You would need this equipment to set a processor properly anyway. Post a pic of your frequency response and maybe then help will come as far as what you can do to shape/fix it. 

However, keep in mind that fixing frequency response with a DSP will not negate reflections, distortion from the speakers or bad installation of the speakers....all which could be causing in part what you are hearing.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> I came in here to see what the experts are saying and this what what I find?? Sad day on DIYMA.
> 
> OP, can you post a Frequency Response of your system from the drivers seat? 1/6 octave would be helpful. You can use the crappy phone mic or invest $50-100 in something decent. You would need this equipment to set a processor properly anyway. Post a pic of your frequency response and maybe then help will come as far as what you can do to shape/fix it.
> 
> However, keep in mind that fixing frequency response with a DSP will not negate reflections, distortion from the speakers or bad installation of the speakers....all which could be causing in part what you are hearing.


Using context clues, I highly doubt he will even know where to start to get a halfway acceptable measurement.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

^^^You are probably right......

OP, contact me and I'll sell you some Dynaudio speakers....they classified by many as warm!


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

Since this discussion has spiraled into nonsense ....

Have you tried switching the air in your speakers to summer air? If you leave the winter air in there from earlier this year, they can certainly sound cold. Your local mechanic can help you with this when you change the air in your tires to summer air, it's the same idea.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

is this thing on?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

swap rca's for audioquest. theyre heat treated and are much warmer


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Having read this thread for about the 3rd time, I have to say the same that's been mentioned already. "Warmth" is nothing more than a slightly vague description of response that can apply to _*ALL DRIVERS*_ whether intrinsic or manipulated through EQ or adding harmonics preferably through vacuum tubes. Doesn't make a difference of the passband and it surely doesn't apply strictly to the midbass region. You can definitely get a "warmer" sound from manipulating the system with a dsp if you know what you're doing. However, if it is the sound of tubes that you might desire, no DSP will add that.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Well you can also argue that with music producers and David Cheesky. I'm sure both would love your opinion.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I think you've harped on that enough, stressing only the 100-220hz area, but failing to ignore what can be, and perhaps must be done to other areas because it can and most likely will be the sum of all. True, you can add some "warmth" in the midbass region, but that isn't limited to the range you listed. You can also thicken up the bass region by manipulating the 50-60hz creating a little bit of mud. Rolling off the highs some to help with amplitude in the 500-800hz area can help as well. So you see, just fiddling with one area isn't always the answer. All of this is outside of the scope of adding harmonics.

As for your reference to music producers.... 

EQ Frequencies — Songstuff


But I'm a fair person and will admit that this of course is not an end-all be-all.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

If it's outside of that range then it has a different name. If not then it's as said before, useless jargon that nobody knows what it really means. 
I swear if I say the sky is blue y'all would twist it to yellow.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Then swear at the author that wrote this:


"200-400Hz
Boost: To add warmth to _*vocals*_ or to thicken a guitar sound"

"400-800Hz
Boost: _*To add warmth to toms.*_" 

That's two different octaves, 3 different instruments if you will. No one is arguing with you just to be arguing. You think too highly of yourself if you even consider that which means it's time to check yourself if that's the case.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

I feel like the op was hoping this thread would go a different way










Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

You are quoting a article that doesn't tell you what warmth is. 
I'm quoting Cheesky that shows you what it is.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Saying I think to highly of my is the same as you thinking the same for yourself. 
Calling the kettle black.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Here. Try it for yourself. I'm not talking out of my ass. I showed proof to back my claim. 
Nobody else has said anything to describe it. 
I bet if one of the so called "respected" members said it y'all would agree. 
90368099525 |


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

DC/Hertz said:


> Saying I think to highly of my is the same as you thinking the same for yourself.
> Calling the kettle black.




:laugh: Really?? Can you point out anywhere on this forum where I even stated that everyone is arguing or even debating with me just because like you just have? I can't even take you seriously at this point. That's pretty childish to even attempt that. I'm aware of *Chesky* by the way. Jargon is jargon... I think you know that.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Pathetic. Truly pathetic. 
Let's just keep naming things we have no idea what it means. Audiophile BS is always audiophile BS. If you can except that then go for it. 
Or you could try to figure out what someone is saying and apply the proper term. 
I give up. I don't know why I even waste my time. Stubborn will be stubborn even when presented a sensible solution.


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

I haven't gone away, but I have to admit as a newcomer that this discussion has gone in directions I didn't expect. For the record, I find it useless to be told over and over again that "warmth" can only apply to a very narrow range of frequencies. How does that address the issue I've raised and detailed? I have described what I am hearing and it is much more in line with the points made in the link that shows engineers how to equalize frequencies to compensate for warmth and harshness issues. (FYI, the items have been removed from the original vehicle and not installed yet in the second, so no EQ curve to show.)

I was interested in the idea of warmth, EQ curves, materials, electronics, etc., and have learned a thing or two along the way. I don't think I have a good idea about what to do with the HAT Imagines and whether I should use them in the Acura, though. My inclination is to sell them, buy some speakers that are generally described as warm and musical as well as detailed (Morels, Dynas, various DIY options) and some kind of DSP to deal with the car's environment and be done with it. 

If anyone has a line on some speakers that meet those requirements -- 6.5-inch woofer, probably about a 1-inch tweeter -- let me know. Thanks.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

For the ones using the term cold or warm. YOU ARE WRONG!


Instead it is referred to the whole sound picture or character.

Smooth or unpleasant, harsh or the opposite of smooth. 



The sound differences among brands in home speakers, have to do with types of tweeters being used, silk domes, radiators horns, ribbons, titanium etc.
Some home speaker manufacturers may emphasize in midrange while others on bass, then you have the acoustic suspension versus ported or bass reflex type bass, a car is a different situation, doors sizes, reflections, positioning and the DSP will help even the cheapest speaker, but cheaper bad drivers will have their limitations at loud levels.


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## CSEmoses (Dec 15, 2010)

i've never seen a graph of a warm sound. 

Is "warm", on a graph, a dip or plateau for a substantial amount of the higher frequencies, then?

I mean, this must have been done. "this tweeter sounds really warm" "lets take a sweep!" and same goes for a "bright" tweeter.

Do folks complain of 'bright' mid-bass drivers? i don't think I ever have. The only time i've noted something "bright" was when a tweeter clearly was trying to melt my ear drums.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

If you would have looked at the graph I posted(the one everybody is calling BS) it would tell you all this. But screw it.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

DC/Hertz said:


> If you would have looked at the graph I posted(the one everybody is calling BS) it would tell you all this. But screw it.


Nobody is calling the chart BS, we're saying that it's just one guys way of describing frequencies, it is not proof of anything (I don't think you know what that word means). There is no objective definition of most of the terms that get thrown around. "Warm" is not strictly 200hz like you insist it is. The chart isn't BS, but it is just as subjective as any other description out there.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

It's not valid because some don't want to accept it is valid. You not accepting it as fact does not make it not fact. It's the most valid point made in this entire thread. Something that has meat to actually descride things.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

DC/Hertz said:


> It's not valid because some don't want to accept it is valid. You not accepting it as fact does not make it not fact. It's the most valid point made in this entire thread. Something that has meat to actually descride things.


Do you know what the words "fact" and "proof" mean? Because 3 pages of nonsense suggest that you don't.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Warm or cold is about temperature


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I showed proof. What did anyone else say? Oh yeah they said it was jargon. 
I don't have time. This place reminds me of Fox News.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

A color can be hot or cold like red or black 


Applied to sound or music it's just a wrong term


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Notice where the term warm comes in and also includes the terms "Rich", "Round", "Warm highs means sweet highs".... ? 

9.14 What do they mean when they say "It sounds warm?"

But all of this back & forth is besides the point of helping the OP decide what to do. Better help would be examining the response (as stated many times) and figuring out what needs attention to get the sound desired. The fact is, many have stated in the past that they can just about get all setups to sound very similar by the time they're done tuning. It's just a matter of how much work each one takes and I have noticed that myself. I have a certain tune that pleases my ears or am used to rather (not necessarily a good thing). No matter how many driver swaps, I wind up close to the same sound with just some variance in performance. Anything else will take training my ears through extended listening & acceptance. That is the norm.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

mr.gone said:


> I haven't gone away, but I have to admit as a newcomer that this discussion has gone in directions I didn't expect. For the record, I find it useless to be told over and over again that "warmth" can only apply to a very narrow range of frequencies. How does that address the issue I've raised and detailed? I have described what I am hearing and it is much more in line with the points made in the link that shows engineers how to equalize frequencies to compensate for warmth and harshness issues. (FYI, the items have been removed from the original vehicle and not installed yet in the second, so no EQ curve to show.)
> 
> I was interested in the idea of warmth, EQ curves, materials, electronics, etc., and have learned a thing or two along the way. I don't think I have a good idea about what to do with the HAT Imagines and whether I should use them in the Acura, though. My inclination is to sell them, buy some speakers that are generally described as warm and musical as well as detailed (Morels, Dynas, various DIY options) and some kind of DSP to deal with the car's environment and be done with it.
> 
> If anyone has a line on some speakers that meet those requirements -- 6.5-inch woofer, probably about a 1-inch tweeter -- let me know. Thanks.


Op...

Generally, anything within a time frame, (20ms from initial sound I think?) Is averaged together by our brain. Inherently, that includes everything in your vehicle. Your vehicle is a big speaker. Swapping the initial starting point (your speakers) isn't going to change the response of the panels, structure, and individual parts of your car.

A DSP is a big step in the right direction. Perhaps you could manipulate the response of your speakers and be happy. If not... You can start treating the environment. However, changing one doesn't necessarily change the other. That's the long hard confused lesson that everybody is arguing about. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

mr.gone said:


> I haven't gone away, but I have to admit as a newcomer that this discussion has gone in directions I didn't expect. For the record, I find it useless to be told over and over again that "warmth" can only apply to a very narrow range of frequencies. How does that address the issue I've raised and detailed? I have described what I am hearing and it is much more in line with the points made in the link that shows engineers how to equalize frequencies to compensate for warmth and harshness issues. (FYI, the items have been removed from the original vehicle and not installed yet in the second, so no EQ curve to show.)
> 
> I was interested in the idea of warmth, EQ curves, materials, electronics, etc., and have learned a thing or two along the way. I don't think I have a good idea about what to do with the HAT Imagines and whether I should use them in the Acura, though. My inclination is to sell them, buy some speakers that are generally described as warm and musical as well as detailed (Morels, Dynas, various DIY options) and some kind of DSP to deal with the car's environment and be done with it.
> 
> If anyone has a line on some speakers that meet those requirements -- 6.5-inch woofer, probably about a 1-inch tweeter -- let me know. Thanks.


Like I said, I can help you with Dyns is that is what you are wanting to try.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> If you would have looked at the graph I posted(the one everybody is calling BS) it would tell you all this. But screw it.


Oh so now your interested in graphs? Of course only when it helps your argument though 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

You can't be comparing the two. One is black and white the other has tons of variables associated with it. I don't know why you care so much about response graphs. The scan tweeters you love so much look like crap on them.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

This thread just keeps getting better.












DC/Hertz said:


> You can't be comparing the two. One is black and white the other has tons of variables associated with it. I don't know why you care so much about response graphs. The scan tweeters you love so much look like crap on them.


Which Scans exactly? Compared to which tweeters?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

rton20s said:


> This thread just keeps getting better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


r3004 maybe?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> r3004 maybe?


I'm curious to see what DC/Hertz has to say. I want to see his examples of a good tweeter frequency response graph and a bad tweeter frequency response graph (ScanSpeak).


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

rton20s said:


> I'm curious to see what DC/Hertz has to say. I want to see his examples of a good tweeter frequency response graph and a bad tweeter frequency response graph (ScanSpeak).


look at em. terrible for their designated uses..


https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...2904/7100-02-wide-surround-silver-face-plate/


https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...tor-r3004/6620-00-1-tweeter-black-face-plate/


https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...2904/7000-00-tweeter-silver-face-silver-plug/


https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...ator-d3004/6600-aircirc-tweeter-textile-dome/

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...-r3004/6020-00-1-tweeter-small-ring-radiator/

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...luminator-d3004/6020-00-tweeter-textile-dome/


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## DejaWiz (Sep 20, 2007)

Have you considered an AudioControl DSP with the input/output RTA and Auto Adjust features? It will apply some clever Auto EQ'ing to help "normalize" things...and if it doesn't do the job after 2-3 RTA passes, then you can go in and adjust the individual EQ frequency points where you feel it's either too mellowed or too brightened.

...all that's needed is some pink noise (play it as an input to the DSP), available at the bottom of the DSP product pages:

DM-608 - AudioControl

DM-810 - AudioControl


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DejaWiz said:


> Have you considered an AudioControl DSP with the input/output RTA and Auto Adjust features? It will apply some clever Auto EQ'ing to help "normalize" things...and if it doesn't do the job after 2-3 RTA passes, then you can go in and adjust the individual EQ frequency points where you feel it's either too mellowed or too brightened.
> 
> ...all that's needed is some pink noise (play it as an input to the DSP), available at the bottom of the DSP product pages:
> 
> ...


why would anyone want that when you can get a more powerful dsp for half the price? only does mono eq. joke of a processor


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Does it matter what I say? Nope. I don't want to upset your little click. Don't want the DIYMA groupies getting butt hurt.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> Does it matter what I say? Nope. I don't want to upset your little click. Don't want the DIYMA groupies getting butt hurt.


**clique 

but yes, good rebuttal there derek.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I try. I need to practice my keyboard *******


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

DejaWiz said:


> Have you considered an AudioControl DSP with the input/output RTA and Auto Adjust features? It will apply some clever Auto EQ'ing to help "normalize" things...and if it doesn't do the job after 2-3 RTA passes, then you can go in and adjust the individual EQ frequency points where you feel it's either too mellowed or too brightened.
> 
> ...all that's needed is some pink noise (play it as an input to the DSP), available at the bottom of the DSP product pages:
> 
> ...


Uh oh. This is about to go from bad to worse.



SkizeR said:


> why would anyone want that when you can get a more powerful dsp for half the price? only does mono eq. joke of a processor


Too late.



DC/Hertz said:


> Does it matter what I say? Nope. I don't want to upset your little click. Don't want the DIYMA groupies getting butt hurt.


I'm legitimately curious. You made a claim. ScanSpeaks are widely recognized as some of the best drivers on the planet, regardless of price. They are also recognized as one of a select group of manufactures that does not take steps to fudge their frequency response graphs with excessive smoothing or broad scaling. 

So, I'll ask again. Which specific ScanSpeak tweeter are you referring to and what would you consider a tweeter with a superior frequency response graph?


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## DejaWiz (Sep 20, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> why would anyone want that when you can get a more powerful dsp for half the price? only does mono eq. joke of a processor


Didn't they recently release a new firmware to allow individual channel EQ'ing? I could be wrong, but I thought I just read that somewhere...


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Uh oh. This is about to go from bad to worse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The off axis roll off is horrible. Not everyone wants to fab giant tweeters pointed at your face. I prefer to keep my drivers hidden. 
Just my opinion that's backed up by the posted graphs.


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> I try. I need to practice my keyboard *******


I don't know you, DC/Hertz, but I would kindly ask you to stop commenting on my thread. I'm not a member of any clique, so I can tell you as an outsider that you are not providing anything of value. And now you're just insulting people. Please go away.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

He does have a unique perspective and it's good to hear at times

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DejaWiz said:


> Didn't they recently release a new firmware to allow individual channel EQ'ing? I could be wrong, but I thought I just read that somewhere...


i dont think it was released yet. i downloaded the one from their site 2 days ago and its still mono. the reason they are actually releasing an update to do left/right is because of me and ken ward saying how silly they were for releasing a product like that and and audiocontrol manager(?) happened to see. audiocontrol is convinced that all installers are brain damaged (just try calling them, you will see), therefor they watered down their processor


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> The off axis roll off is horrible. Not everyone wants to fab giant tweeters pointed at your face. I prefer to keep my drivers hidden.
> Just my opinion that's backed up by the posted graphs.


Off axis response of the ScanSpeak isn't all that different from most other tweeters of similar size. There are a couple of exceptions (Vifa/Tymphany come to mind) that may show slightly better off axis roll-off, but the difference isn't THAT significant. And there may or may not be other performance trade offs that come with that "improved" off axis roll off. 

I can understand wanting to keep drivers hidden, and that can be done with just about any driver while keeping it near on-axis if you want to put in the work to make it happen. Tweeters are the only drivers (unless you run tweeterless widebanders) where I would even be concerned about keeping a driver on or near on-axis. That would be a case by case basis though depending on driver response and how it interacts with the installation location and environment. 

I am still waiting for you to show me the specific ScanSpeak and competitors graphs that demonstrate the inferior performance of the ScanSpeak. Or are we to assume that you really are just here to spread hyperbolic steer feces?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Off axis response of the ScanSpeak isn't all that different from most other tweeters of similar size. There are a couple of exceptions (Vifa/Tymphany come to mind) that may show slightly better off axis roll-off, but the difference isn't THAT significant. And there may or may not be other performance trade offs that come with that "improved" off axis roll off.
> 
> I can understand wanting to keep drivers hidden, and that can be done with just about any driver while keeping it near on-axis if you want to put in the work to make it happen. Tweeters are the only drivers (unless you run tweeterless widebanders) where I would even be concerned about keeping a driver on or near on-axis. That would be a case by case basis though depending on driver response and how it interacts with the installation location and environment.
> 
> I am still waiting for you to show me the specific ScanSpeak and competitors graphs that demonstrate the inferior performance of the ScanSpeak. Or are we to assume that you really are just here to spread hyperbolic steer feces?


your wasting your time. 

what i find funny about this whole thing is that less than 24 hours ago he says hes considering large format scanspeak drivers for his a pillars. there goes his "i want mine hidden" argument along with the fact that he knows theyre more than adequate regardless of off axis response


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Dayton ND20FA-6 FTW!!!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Bayboy said:


> Dayton ND20FA-6 FTW!!!


I don't have the ND20FA-6 in my database, but I do have the ND20FB-4. The little ND Daytons punch way above their weight class. For the price you pay, they are an outstanding choice for a three way install where you can cross your tweeters fairly high.

For comparative reference:

*Dayton ND20FB-4 @ 20 kHz*
15*: -2.5 dB
30*: -9.5 dB
45*: -17.5 dB
60: N/A

*ScanSpeak D2004-6020-00 @ 20 kHz*
15*: N/A
30*: -4 dB
45*: N/A
60*: -27 dB

I've got graphs as well, if you prefer.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Off axis response of the ScanSpeak isn't all that different from most other tweeters of similar size. There are a couple of exceptions (Vifa/Tymphany come to mind) that may show slightly better off axis roll-off, but the difference isn't THAT significant. And there may or may not be other performance trade offs that come with that "improved" off axis roll off.
> 
> I can understand wanting to keep drivers hidden, and that can be done with just about any driver while keeping it near on-axis if you want to put in the work to make it happen. Tweeters are the only drivers (unless you run tweeterless widebanders) where I would even be concerned about keeping a driver on or near on-axis. That would be a case by case basis though depending on driver response and how it interacts with the installation location and environment.
> 
> I am still waiting for you to show me the specific ScanSpeak and competitors graphs that demonstrate the inferior performance of the ScanSpeak. Or are we to assume that you really are just here to spread hyperbolic steer feces?


As always some have thier head to far up thier own ass to get a simple point. 
I'm sure they do sound great. They look very well made. But judging by the graph they barely cover 2 octaves before falling on thier face. 
I personally don't care what a near field 1w graph looks like. I will never use them like that so what do I care. With people giving a hard time about DD not showing graphs I don't care. I personally trust they wouldn't put thier name on crap. But it don't fit the DIYMA vocabulary. That's how all this started. 
I disgress. This is all fun until it turns into a argument. There is nothing to be gained from that. Y'all go back to helping OP and his imaginary terminology. 
I'm sure y'all will tell him what he wants to hear. 

And yes, yesterday I was thinking about doing pillars. Today I'm not. It's kind of hard to plan to fix what isn't broken. But I should be trying hard to get rid of my so ****ty Hertz drivers that still make me smile after 5 years of abuse.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

rton20s said:


> I don't have the ND20FA-6 in my database, but I do have the ND20FB-4. The little ND Daytons punch way above their weight class. For the price you pay, they are an outstanding choice for a three way install where you can cross your tweeters fairly high.
> 
> For comparative reference:
> 
> ...




I've got them in the sails so they're pretty off-axis and slightly pointing downward, but I couldn't believe the response before EQ when I took a measurement. I've ran them before, but didn't take a measurement. They're crossed at 7khz though they could go down to 5khz easily.


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## HOIRiIZON (Apr 3, 2016)

mr.gone said:


> Wondering about keeping my HAT Imagines, which I have had for years, as I switch vehicles. The Imagines have always sounded a touch cold to me, so I've been considering Morels, which have a reputation for being warm, or another speaker with a similar sound. It could be all kinds of other factors that led me to think the Imagines are cold and it isn't the speaker's fault. But my experience in other audio is that the material/design of the speakers and electronics disposes them to either on the cold (Infinity, Klipsch, solid state) side or warm (Boston Acoustic, Vandersteen, tubes) side.
> 
> I've never heard a DSP, so I wondering if it can "warm up" a cold sound. I realize that it can change the output at various frequencies, and likely what I imagine is cold vs warm is somehow a product of that. But I'd guess that the effect of, say, a metal dome vs. fabric dome is more complex and subtle than can be overcome with electronics.
> 
> If the Imagines can be transformed to warm speakers with a good DSP, I'd keep them. Otherwise, I'll sell them. Thanks in advance for replies -- it really helps someone in my position.


A DSP can make your system sound like crap as well no matter how hi end the DSP is, be careful out there, when buying one. I have heard more systems that suck with a dsp trying to make a speaker something it is not.


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## CSEmoses (Dec 15, 2010)

HOIRiIZON said:


> An *ignorant installer/tuner* can make your system sound like crap as well no matter how hi end the DSP is, be careful out there, when _*choosing an installer*_. I have heard more systems that suck with *an ignorant tuner* trying to make a speaker something it is not.


I corrected that for you. Blaming the dsp is... silly. Unless you're pressing the 'auto' button or something.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

CSEmoses said:


> I corrected that for you. Blaming the dsp is... silly. Unless you're pressing the 'auto' button or something.


good man


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## DejaWiz (Sep 20, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> i dont think it was released yet. i downloaded the one from their site 2 days ago and its still mono. the reason they are actually releasing an update to do left/right is because of me and ken ward saying how silly they were for releasing a product like that and and audiocontrol manager(?) happened to see. audiocontrol is convinced that all installers are brain damaged (just try calling them, you will see), therefor they watered down their processor


I see. Hopefully they get it out soon...they should absolutely know better, given the state of the industry nowadays. Especially at the prices they are demanding for them.

And a big thanks to you and KW for pushing them to do so.

Admittedly, I have very little experience with mobile DSPs, and I have generally had an affinity with AC products in the past, so I naturally try and recommend them. I find it a shame that their DSPs were released with such limited scope. Fingers crossed that they can pull off the new firmware without any hitches, and soon.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DejaWiz said:


> I see. Hopefully they get it out soon...they should absolutely know better, given the state of the industry nowadays. Especially at the prices they are demanding for them.
> 
> And a big thanks to you and KW for pushing them to do so.
> 
> Admittedly, I have very little experience with mobile DSPs, and I have generally had an affinity with AC products in the past, so I naturally try and recommend them. I find it a shame that their DSPs were released with such limited scope. Fingers crossed that they can pull off the new firmware without any hitches, and soon.


thing is, they will still be super limited for how much they cost vs whats out there


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> As always some have thier head to far up thier own ass to get a simple point.
> I'm sure they do sound great. They look very well made. But judging by the graph they barely cover 2 octaves before falling on thier face.
> I personally don't care what a near field 1w graph looks like. I will never use them like that so what do I care. With people giving a hard time about DD not showing graphs I don't care. I personally trust they wouldn't put thier name on crap. But it don't fit the DIYMA vocabulary. That's how all this started.
> I disgress. This is all fun until it turns into a argument. There is nothing to be gained from that. Y'all go back to helping OP and his imaginary terminology.
> ...


werent you asked to leave by the OP?


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Was I? I didn't know he owned this place. 
I was asked a question and it would be rude to not answer. 
There needs to be a ignore button on here. You're one annoying person.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> werent you asked to leave by the OP?


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> Was I? I didn't know he owned this place.
> I was asked a question and it would be rude to not answer.
> There needs to be a ignore button on here. You're one annoying person.


I don't "own this place," but I am the one who sought answers to my question. A convention of social media is that those who respond try to honor the original poster's intent. They do so by providing answers that are germane to what is being asked. 

Being told that your answers are not helpful by the original poster would cause most people to rethink their position. They might even apologize for previous answers. 

If the original poster has invited you to stop commenting because it is undermining the thread of discussion, the social norm is to honor that request and stop. I have the impression that you are not acquainted with these conventions. Now that I have laid them out for you, I would ask that you follow them rather than continue to attack me and the others on this thread.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

So the one person that made a post that would truly help him answer his questions gets shunned? 
No. That's more like I wasn't telling him what he wanted to hear. 
All he had to do was apply what I gave him to what he was hearing. Easy day. 
If that doesn't happen then nobody can help him because they don't know what he is talking about.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> So the one person that made a post that would truly help him answer his questions gets shunned?
> No. That's more like I wasn't telling him what he wanted to hear.
> All he had to do was apply what I gave him to what he was hearing. Easy day.
> If that doesn't happen then nobody can help him because they don't know what he is talking about.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm so glad you have so many amazing pictures. And I'm the one that's not helpful. Clowns.


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## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> werent you asked to leave by *everyone*?


fixed?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

nineball76 said:


> fixed?


everyones thoughts, OP's quote lol


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> I'm so glad you have so many amazing pictures. And I'm the one that's not helpful. Clowns.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Poast


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## DejaWiz (Sep 20, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> thing is, they will still be super limited for how much they cost vs whats out there


Would you mind listing some recommended alternatives that would fall in the same (or lower) price ranges of the AC units?

I'd like to learn as much as I can while I'm still in the planning stages for my own audio system, as well as he able to perpetuate the knowledge to others that come to DIYMA seeking it.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DejaWiz said:


> Would you mind listing some recommended alternatives that would fall in the same (or lower) price ranges of the AC units?
> 
> I'd like to learn as much as I can while I'm still in the planning stages for my own audio system, as well as he able to perpetuate the knowledge to others that come to DIYMA seeking it.


helix (used), or JL twk are the two i recommend. anything with parametric eq is going to be much easier and more flexible than the audiocontrol.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

The JL. The software is very easy to use, I haven't messed with the 2.0 but I doubt it made it complicated. Being under $500, it's a huge value with amazing tech support. 
But don't listen to me, I'm a idiot that never helps anyone.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

X2 on a used Helix. If you don't need any of the fancy stuff, the regular DSP (not DSP.2) can be had for cheap. Loved it enough to buy a second for my other vehicle.


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## DejaWiz (Sep 20, 2007)

Thanks for the help, everyone!


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