# How to make tweeters less bright sounding?



## nperkins

Recently I did a stereo upgrade in my girlfriend's Acura RSX... Her factory speakers were shot.. So I picked up a killer deal on a set of Phoenix Gold R-Octane 6.5" components.. I installed them in factory location under the factory grille (tweeter on dash firing towards windshield), and didn't think much of it, as they are silk dome tweeters so I didn't think they would be bright sounding. 

They sounded awful... Then I realized, they wanted 75w RMS... So we upgraded the head unit from factory to a Pioneer AVIC-Z110... It got better, but wasn't loud enough for her... So I installed a Memphis 16-MCA3004 75x4 amp. It got alot better, but is still bright.. 

I'm looking for suggestions on how to make the tweeters more mellow without moving them to the pillars and cross firing. The crossovers for the components only have a 0dB and +3dB switch... it is on 0dB already.. I have some grille cloth that I am going to put over the factory tweeter cover to try and dull it down some, but I'm looking for other suggestions...


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## Candisa

I don't know what's the sonic signature of Memphis amps, but I would recommend using an amp with a warm sound to it.
This makes sense, since the amps of Phoenix Gold do have a warm sound to them and a manufacturer won't sell speakers that sound awful on their own amps.
Other amplifier manufacturers that build amplifiers with a warmer sound to them are: Audison, Audio-System, Kenwood, Sinfoni, Helix...

Maybe you can try to find an oldskool Phoenix Gold MS275 on eBay, this should match this component set well and the quality of the oldskool MS series amplifiers is a LOT better than their more recent products.

Isabelle


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## kyheng

Cross them higher or change the placement may help abit.


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## benny

aiming/installation and EQ are some things I'd try before randomly swapping out amps. You don't tune sound with amplification...


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## 86mr2

You can pad down the tweeter level as well.


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## reker13

When you say too bright do you mean too loud in relation to your mids? If so and you already have your tweeters to lowest setting on the xover and can't move the tweets more off axis, I'm afraid your only other choice is to go active and turn the gains way down to the tweets. Maybe find a less sensitive tweeter? The grill cloth is a good idea.

If you say bright at certain frequencies then try EQ'ing down 2k - 8k. Do you have an iPhone? There are some good RTA programs for like $20 that can help you identify where the frequencies are too low/too high. Our ears are very sensitive to these frequencies. You can download some good test tones on this forum at the top.


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## reker13

p.s. - if you need a good EQ I have an Audiocontrol DQS for sale. Guess it just depends on how good of a girlfriend she is right? :laugh:


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## nperkins

86mr2 said:


> You can pad down the tweeter level as well.


What do you mean pad down the level? 


reker13 said:


> When you say too bright do you mean too loud in relation to your mids? If so and you already have your tweeters to lowest setting on the xover and can't move the tweets more off axis, I'm afraid your only other choice is to go active and turn the gains way down to the tweets. Maybe find a less sensitive tweeter? The grill cloth is a good idea.
> 
> If you say bright at certain frequencies then try EQ'ing down 2k - 8k. Do you have an iPhone? There are some good RTA programs for like $20 that can help you identify where the frequencies are too low/too high. Our ears are very sensitive to these frequencies. You can download some good test tones on this forum at the top.


No iPhone, but iPod Touch... Will it work for the iPod touch? When I say bright, i mean somewhat tinny sounding. The EQ on the Z-110 just doesn't seem to hit the frequency when you try to lower it.. If i put a thick piece of cloth over top of the tweeters it helps alot, which is why I want to do the grill cloth. 



reker13 said:


> p.s. - if you need a good EQ I have an Audiocontrol DQS for sale. Guess it just depends on how good of a girlfriend she is right? :laugh:


lol.. its all her money, not mine... My money goes to bills & the rally car fund.. I haven't been into car audio in about 5-7 years.. Ballpark price? Don't know if she would be interested or not.

EDIT: Any way I can use a capacitor or something to change the crossover and maybe give more power to the woofer and less to the tweeter?


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## Candisa

benny said:


> You don't tune sound with amplification...


I'd prefer getting the sound as close to perfect as possible by finding out the perfect match of gear before tuning WAY over trying to tune the hell out of a bad match to make it sound good!

In a perfect world, an amplifier just amplifies... Guess what, we don't live in a perfect world and an amplifier DOES have its influence on the total sound!

Isabelle


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## benny

Not as much influence as EVERYTHING ELSE.


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## Bluto Blutarsky

L pad


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## Candisa

benny said:


> Not as much influence as EVERYTHING ELSE.


Trust me, I've had a Focal component set sounding great on a Kenwood amp (warmer sound) and a bit later sounding terribly harsh on a Steg QM amp (brighter sound) with about the same power, same install and nothing changed in the DSP...
I tuned the hell out of that install, but I never got it to sound like it did on the Kenwood amp!

Other example:
I have a pair of B&W DM2a speaker at home. On my Technics SA-5460 receiver (neutral sound) they sound great! I used to have trouble with that Technics amp, and at first sight it seemed to be beyond repair, so I bought a Marantz PM-7200 K.I. Signature amp...
Result: Those B&W's sounded dull and muffled!
I was VERY glad my Technics amp got repaired anyway!

Amps can make a HUGE difference in sound!


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## XC-C30

Candisa said:


> Trust me, I've had a Focal component set sounding great on a Kenwood amp (warmer sound) and a bit later sounding terribly harsh on a Steg QM amp (brighter sound) with about the same power, same install and nothing changed in the DSP...
> I tuned the hell out of that install, but I never got it to sound like it did on the Kenwood amp!
> 
> Other example:
> I have a pair of B&W DM2a speaker at home. On my Technics SA-5460 receiver (neutral sound) they sound great! I used to have trouble with that Technics amp, and at first sight it seemed to be beyond repair, so I bought a Marantz PM-7200 K.I. Signature amp...
> Result: Those B&W's sounded dull and muffled!
> I was VERY glad my Technics amp got repaired anyway!
> 
> Amps can make a HUGE difference in sound!


And the difference with the sansui, or a few cars we heard with different amps....

I guess we still got ears (wondering how long it's gonna take before anyone shouts: "blind test.... win 10K":laugh


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## ryan s

The tweeters are basically horn-loaded off the windshield and switching amps is the fix? Seriously?  I have hybrid tubes in my car, so we'll not go there unless you _really _want to. You'll definitely not like my opinion...

As already said...L-pad, EQ, move away from the windshield...pretty much in that order...if you have to buy stuff, that is. Taking a stab at it, I'd guess the "tinny" sound is in the upper frequency range (8k+) and the brightness is a little lower (3-4k)? What does that headunit have for EQ options?

I haven't been in an RSX for a few years so I can't remember exactly how the tweeters are set up, but I assume it's like most post-2003 Hondas with the tweeters toed in towards the cabin a little bit.


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## Candisa

If all amps sound the same or have barely influence on the sound, then why do you run hybrid tube amps instead of cheap junk?


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## The Baron Groog

Try the $2 dollar fix in the SQ stickies, a simple rounded baffle may help!


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## 89grand

Oh no, here is goes again. People can tell the difference between amps. I wish just once someone would offer even some degree of proof.

I've never swapped amps in an effort to tune or alter the systems sound. There's nothing an amp could do, even if they did sound different, that an eq could not do. Assuming amps of equal power and on board processing.


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## Candisa

You can't tune in some harmonic distortion without actually changing the frequency response with an equalizer. 

The warmth of the sound is partly determined by the harmonic distortions of the system and EVERY audio-device has it's own "signature" when it comes to harmonic distortions.

Maybe there are dsp's out there that can create harmonics, but I think swapping out an amplifier is a LOT easier than try to make a Genesis amp sound like a Sinfoni or (probably even harder) the other way around.

By the way, I have proof of my opinion, but I cannot offer this, since the proof is attached to either side of my head.

Isabelle


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## ryan s

Candisa said:


> If all amps sound the same or have barely influence on the sound, then why do you run hybrid tube amps instead of cheap junk?


(Started typing with numbers, but in no real order...)
1. Got them for what "cheap junk" amps would have cost
2. Something very few others have
3. Cool looking
4. Capable crossover sections
5. Heavy with thick heat sinks (they get pretty warm :surprised
6. They can run pretty much any config I'd ever want or could conceive (2-way front with widebands [did it], 3-way...)

Can I tell a difference between them and full solid states while parked? Ehh, kind of...can't really describe it. It might just be a function of no road/car noise  Can I tell a difference while driving? No way. Had I paid "market price" or MSRP I might be defending the sound more :laugh:

Thanks for playing 

Oh, and as of now, my headunit is handling all crossovers and processing...so the amps make even less of a difference. I run them _because I can_


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## Candisa

Well, to each their own, some people don't believe in the difference in sound of amplifiers, other people (like me) do.

I just can't stand non-believers trying to convince people that don't have a lot of experience with different amps that all amps sound the same. 
If one has tried a wide range of different amps and says to me he doesn't hear any difference in a further identical setup: fine with me.
But if somebody asks about a problem that can be solved by using a different amp according to "believers", I don't think all non-believers should jump on it and shout "no no no, that won't help, all amps sound the same!"
Let him try it if he's willing to try it, maybe he won't hear the difference and then he at least knows he's part of the non-believers group, but there's also the chance he *will* hear the difference and be happy with it and the problem is solved without having to install an extra equalizer/buy a headunit with a 2x6589625541-band built-in equalizer...

Isabelle


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## ChrisB

Dang it, what was that resistor trick to use on tweeters to reduce their output? I am getting old...


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## ryan s

To be honest, the "amp sound" discussion is neither here nor there with regards to the topic on hand. The tweeters are firing off the windshield! It doesn't matter if he's using the most expensive amp on the market...this is an install issue and needs to be dealt with as such.

I actually only replied to the thread because of the ridiculous suggestion of replacing a $100-200 Memphis amp (after using _stock headunit power_ initially, then upgrading to an aftermarket and using its internal 18 watts per channel amp) with an Audison, Sinfoni, Helix, or Audio-System (which we don't even get in America)...instead of addressing the issues caused by a tweeters-off-the-windshield install. 

LOLs were had :laugh:


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## 86mr2

Maybe it's speaker cables?














j/k


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## ChrisB

Candisa said:


> If all amps sound the same or have barely influence on the sound, then why do you run hybrid tube amps instead of cheap junk?


Because there's real gas in those tubes!

Acura : Excuses Tube Amp [video] | scaryideas.com


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## Candisa

That's why I also told him to find an oldskool PG MS275 on eBay!!! 

By the way, I had my Focal tweeters in the dashboard firing up against the windshield when I had no issues with harsh sounding tweeters using that Kenwood amp.
It actually sounded softer than I ever heard with the Steg QM amp on that same set with all kinds of tweeter-aiming and desperate trials to tune that sound I had with the Kenwood back in it...


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## XC-C30

ryan s said:


> To be honest, the "amp sound" discussion is neither here nor there with regards to the topic on hand. The tweeters are firing off the windshield! It doesn't matter if he's using the most expensive amp on the market...this is an install issue and needs to be dealt with as such.
> 
> I actually only replied to the thread because of the ridiculous suggestion of replacing a $100-200 Memphis amp (after using _stock headunit power_ initially, then upgrading to an aftermarket and using its internal 18 watts per channel amp) with an Audison, Sinfoni, Helix, or Audio-System (which we don't even get in America)...instead of addressing the issues caused by a tweeters-off-the-windshield install.
> 
> LOLs were had :laugh:


WOOPS audio-system america
WOOPS US helix dealer
yup you can select american audison dealer here


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## ryan s

Candisa said:


> That's why I also told him to find an oldskool PG MS275 on eBay!!!
> 
> By the way, I had my Focal tweeters in the dashboard firing up against the windshield when I had no issues with harsh sounding tweeters using that Kenwood amp.
> It actually sounded softer than I ever heard with the Steg QM amp on that same set with all kinds of tweeter-aiming and desperate trials to tune that sound I had with the Kenwood back in it...


I had an MS250. Guess what my analysis on it would be? :laugh: (Strong little amp that was...I was impressed. Didn't make a damn bit of difference on the sound, except for making more power than the amp I had at the time.)

I'm guessing the specs on the Kenwood and the Steg were identical? 100% the same? I'll answer my own rhetorical question with a "no" :laugh:


XC-C30 said:


> WOOPS audio-system america
> WOOPS US helix dealer
> yup you can select american audison dealer here


I know we have Helix and Audison, thanks anyway. Forgive me for not knowing about the _single _A-S dealer in the entire country (if it's even a dealer? It says "Orca Design & Manufacturing Corp" which doesn't sound like they sell stuff)


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## nperkins

ryan s said:


> As already said...L-pad, EQ, move away from the windshield...pretty much in that order...if you have to buy stuff, that is. Taking a stab at it, I'd guess the "tinny" sound is in the upper frequency range (8k+) and the brightness is a little lower (3-4k)? What does that headunit have for EQ options?
> 
> I haven't been in an RSX for a few years so I can't remember exactly how the tweeters are set up, but I assume it's like most post-2003 Hondas with the tweeters toed in towards the cabin a little bit.


Its 7 bands, but I don't recall what each band is on the EQ..

The RSX tweeters sit flush with the dash and fire straight up into the windshield. 



The Baron Groog said:


> Try the $2 dollar fix in the SQ stickies, a simple rounded baffle may help!


So put enclosures around my tweeters? I've been out of the car audio scene for quite awhile... I never remember putting my tweeters into their own enclosures... Does it really make that much of a difference?


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## XC-C30

ryan s said:


> I had an MS250. Guess what my analysis on it would be? :laugh: (Strong little amp that was...I was impressed. Didn't make a damn bit of difference on the sound, except for making more power than the amp I had at the time.)
> 
> I'm guessing the specs on the Kenwood and the Steg were identical? 100% the same? I'll answer my own rhetorical question with a "no" :laugh:
> 
> I know we have Helix and Audison, thanks anyway. Forgive me for not knowing about the _single _A-S dealer in the entire country (if it's even a dealer? It says "Orca Design & Manufacturing Corp" which doesn't sound like they sell stuff)


ORCA imports and is the main dealer, though not the only one, since I know a few people who bought them at their local shop 
You have to get better informed before you start to try and beat down people...

I guess the human ear is all identical with everyone, so yeah, you must be right


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## ryan s

nperkins said:


> Its 7 bands, but I don't recall what each band is on the EQ..
> 
> The RSX tweeters sit flush with the dash and fire straight up into the windshield.
> 
> So put enclosures around my tweeters? I've been out of the car audio scene for quite awhile... I never remember putting my tweeters into their own enclosures... Does it really make that much of a difference?


The enclosures are part of it. The other part was having a smooth transition from the tweeter dome to the surface it's mounted to. Any sharp edges, such as the inside of the speaker grille, could have an effect on the sound being diffracted. The diffraction would cause a ragged response, creating harshness or any kind of unwanted sound. That's where the flange comes in.



XC-C30 said:


> ORCA imports and is the main dealer, though not the only one, since I know a few people who bought them at their local shop
> You have to get better informed before you start to try and beat down people...
> 
> I guess the human ear is all identical with everyone, so yeah, you must be right


Because I don't know about the distribution of one brand of amps, whose site is copyrighted 2010 _only, _I'm uninformed? :laugh: That is hilarious! :laugh:

If ears are subjective (they are) then I'm no more wrong than you


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## 89grand

Candisa said:


> Trust me, I've had a Focal component set sounding great on a Kenwood amp (warmer sound) and a bit later sounding terribly harsh on a Steg QM amp (brighter sound) with about the same power, same install and nothing changed in the DSP...
> I tuned the hell out of that install, but I never got it to sound like it did on the Kenwood amp!
> 
> Other example:
> I have a pair of B&W DM2a speaker at home. On my Technics SA-5460 receiver (neutral sound) they sound great! I used to have trouble with that Technics amp, and at first sight it seemed to be beyond repair, so I bought a Marantz PM-7200 K.I. Signature amp...
> Result: Those B&W's sounded dull and muffled!
> I was VERY glad my Technics amp got repaired anyway!
> 
> Amps can make a HUGE difference in sound!


What I find most interesting is in each case, it only took one change both times.

I mean if amps all sound so much different (according to you), I expect that sometimes you might need to try 10 amps before finding the right combination, but oddly both times it only took one change for you. That seems highly unlikely to me.


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## nperkins

ryan s said:


> The enclosures are part of it. The other part was having a smooth transition from the tweeter dome to the surface it's mounted to. Any sharp edges, such as the inside of the speaker grille, could have an effect on the sound being diffracted. The diffraction would cause a ragged response, creating harshness or any kind of unwanted sound. That's where the flange comes in.


Flange? Did I miss something? 

I've got resistors, so i'm thinking about trying out an L-Pad.. How many dB should I start with for a drop? Suggestions?


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## goodstuff

They are going to stay bright until you move them away from the glass.


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## fuji6

Depends, the most offensive diffraction comes from very close reflections like off of the baffle and grill. At least according to the link I'm about to post.

OP read up on this.: (stickied in the SQ area)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio-sq-forum/65061-improve-your-soundstage-2-a.html

Long but good read.

Not sure I agree with swapping out amps. While it seems to have helped some people out, my main disagreement here is that the suggest was made without knowing the sonic signature of the OP's current amp. Since I don't have the benefits of years of experience I'd rather deal in knowns.


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## Candisa

89grand said:


> What I find most interesting is in each case, it only took one change both times.
> 
> I mean if amps all sound so much different (according to you), I expect that sometimes you might need to try 10 amps before finding the right combination, but oddly both times it only took one change for you. That seems highly unlikely to me.


That's because I didn't know back then what the sonic signature of an amp was. I WAS a non-believer back then

Now I know of most amps that are popular here in Belgium what to expect from them. I know which ones sound warm (Kenwood, Audison, Sinfoni, Helix, Audio-System,...), I know which ones sound neutral (Genesis, Tru, McIntosh, Clarion's with McIntosh technology inside,...) and which ones tend to sound bright (Steg, RF,...). 

And yes I know this because I've swapped out amps quite a few times in own and others installs...
So yes, now (because of my experience with amps in the past) I can say "swap this amp of brand Z with one of brand W, X or Y" and most likely be spot-on if it comes to creating a better match!


Ow, and that Steg amp was a "4x45W" amp that put out about 4x65W in real life and that Kenwood was a 4x65W amp and that spec was about right. Yes, I measured both of them!
The funny thing is: that Kenwood (the one that sounded better on that Focal set) had a bit more of that soooo baaaad THD...

Isabelle


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## Candisa

fuji6 said:


> While it seems to have helped some people out, my main disagreement here is that the suggest was made without knowing the sonic signature of the OP's current amp. Since I don't have the benefits of years of experience I'd rather deal in knowns.


I must admit I have no experience with Memphis amps, but I do know that most cheaper, especially USA-designed amps tend to have a more bright sound to them, so I assume this one won't be any different.

Yeah, yeah, I know, "Assumption is the mother of.....", but my opinion, based on my experiences says it's worth trying and I think it's rather rude to say this cannot be correct, or worse, laugh with it (it's not because I don't say anything that I'm not aware of what's going on in the baw, don't forget XC-C30 is my girlfriend and we're living together)!

Isabelle


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## nperkins

fuji6 said:


> Depends, the most offensive diffraction comes from very close reflections like off of the baffle and grill. At least according to the link I'm about to post.
> 
> OP read up on this.: (stickied in the SQ area)
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio-sq-forum/65061-improve-your-soundstage-2-a.html
> 
> Long but good read.
> 
> Not sure I agree with swapping out amps. While it seems to have helped some people out, my main disagreement here is that the suggest was made without knowing the sonic signature of the OP's current amp. Since I don't have the benefits of years of experience I'd rather deal in knowns.


Hmmm... maybe i should cut out some of the grille when I put the grille cloth on... I'm really starting to regret taking the tweeters apart when I mounted them to the undersides of the factory grilles... I'm almost wondering if I should just buy new tweeters, and make my own grilles for them... 

Also please remember... It was very bright BEFORE the amp.. So its not the amp. The amp actually helped ALOT. 

I think my first step will be trying to somehow get the $2 spheres under the tweeter to create an enclosure... Then the grille cloth, then go from there..


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## fuji6

Candisa said:


> I must admit I have no experience with Memphis amps, but I do know that most cheaper, especially USA-designed amps tend to have a more bright sound to them, so I assume this one won't be any different.
> 
> Yeah, yeah, I know, "Assumption is the mother of.....", but my opinion, based on my experiences says it's worth trying and I think it's rather rude to say this cannot be correct, or worse, laugh with it (it's not because I don't say anything that I'm not aware of what's going on in the baw, don't forget XC-C30 is my girlfriend and we're living together)!
> 
> Isabelle


I have never intentionally flamed anybody on this or any other forum. So please don't take my disagreement as an attack on your abilities or that I'm taking side in the OT argument going on about differences in amps. However, what I said and how I went about it was far from rude.


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## Candisa

It's not because it was already bright before the amp, that it cannot be the amp.
Those little IC amps inside a headunit tend to sound harsher and brighter than almost any external amplifier out there on the market, so I'm actually not surprised the amp was already a giant step in the right direction...
I'm positive that the *right* amp (one with a warmer sound to it) will be another step in the right direction.

If you're willing to do an experiment, you have nothing to loose by trying the PG MS275 I recommended.
Oldskool PG MS-series amps have a HUGE fan-club, so if you don't like it, you won't have any problem selling it again without loosing money. Maybe there's even some profit in it if you made a good deal!

Isabelle


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## ryan s

89grand said:


> What I find most interesting is in each case, it only took one change both times.
> 
> I mean if amps all sound so much different (according to you), I expect that sometimes you might need to try 10 amps before finding the right combination, but oddly both times it only took one change for you. That seems highly unlikely to me.


 :laugh:


nperkins said:


> Flange? Did I miss something?
> 
> I've got resistors, so i'm thinking about trying out an L-Pad.. How many dB should I start with for a drop? Suggestions?


Isn't the flange topic in the $2 thread? Maybe not :blush: Basically (as it seems you've found out ) you don't want a 90 degree angle right next to the tweeter dome. 


Candisa said:


> That's because I didn't know back then what the sonic signature of an amp was. I WAS a non-believer back then
> 
> Now I know of most amps that are popular here in Belgium what to expect from them. I know which ones sound warm (Kenwood, Audison, Sinfoni, Helix, Audio-System,...), I know which ones sound neutral (Genesis, Tru, McIntosh, Clarion's with McIntosh technology inside,...) and which ones tend to sound bright (Steg, RF,...).
> 
> And yes I know this because I've swapped out amps quite a few times in own and others installs...
> So yes, now (because of my experience with amps in the past) I can say "swap this amp of brand Z with one of brand W, X or Y" and most likely be spot-on if it comes to creating a better match!
> 
> 
> Ow, and that Steg amp was a "4x45W" amp that put out about 4x65W in real life and that Kenwood was a 4x65W amp and that spec was about right. Yes, I measured both of them!
> *The funny thing is: that Kenwood (the one that sounded better on that Focal set) had a bit more of that soooo baaaad THD...*
> 
> Isabelle


Ok, so the difference in THD is...?


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## nperkins

fuji6 said:


> Depends, the most offensive diffraction comes from very close reflections like off of the baffle and grill. At least according to the link I'm about to post.
> 
> OP read up on this.: (stickied in the SQ area)
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio-sq-forum/65061-improve-your-soundstage-2-a.html
> 
> Long but good read.
> 
> Not sure I agree with swapping out amps. While it seems to have helped some people out, my main disagreement here is that the suggest was made without knowing the sonic signature of the OP's current amp. Since I don't have the benefits of years of experience I'd rather deal in knowns.


Hmmm... maybe i should cut out some of the grille when I put the grille cloth on... I'm really starting to regret taking the tweeters apart when I mounted them to the undersides of the factory grilles... I'm almost wondering if I should just buy new tweeters, and make my own grilles for them... 

Also please remember... It was very bright BEFORE the amp.. So its not the amp. The amp actually helped ALOT. 

I think my first step will be trying to somehow get the $2 spheres under the tweeter to create an enclosure... Then the grille cloth, then go from there..


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## passtim

A little trick I used years ago for tweeters firing into the front windshield that were way to bright was to us a small peice of non backed enclosure carpet between the grill and the tweeter. It helps pad down the harshness and if you use matching carpet can look quite nice. This is only if you can't eq the issue though.


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## Candisa

ryan s said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Isn't the flange topic in the $2 thread? Maybe not :blush: Basically (as it seems you've found out ) you don't want a 90 degree angle right next to the tweeter dome.
> 
> Ok, so the difference in THD is...?


The Kenwood was something like .1 or .2%, while the Steg was more something like .01-.02...


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## ryan s

XC-C30 said:


> I guess we still got ears (wondering how long it's gonna take before anyone shouts: "blind test.... win 10K":laugh





Candisa said:


> The Kenwood was something like .1 or .2%, while the Steg was more something like .01-.02...


I wonder if RC will pay twice or $10k only once...cause you guys are claiming to hear _exactly that which Clark is betting $10gs you cannot_ (nor anyone has so far) 

Should be the easiest $10,000 ever...right? Or is it easier to call his challenge "********" because you can't really qualify your opinions? 

Prove it. Don't expect that the forum is going to sit back and let it fly. Also look at the recent HAT L6 thread about the guy whose speakers defy physics! :laugh: "Just *do*...don't *know*" doesn't go over well at DIYMA.


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## Candisa

Like I said before, some people don't believe in the different sound of amps, other people (like me) are convinced of it.
The problem with most non-believers is they think they are god and are allowed to be rude and laugh with people that are convinced of something they don't believe in.

I'm not planning to go that low. 
All I can say about this is that the behavior of most non-believers makes me think they are afraid people will try it out and might be convinced of the opposite of what they want people to believe.
All I know is that I am glad I did try it out and pretty much everyone I've convinced to try it agrees with me on this.
Yes, I actually did the double blind test on people and let other people do the double blind test on me.
I guess I'm very unlucky with my great hearing...

Isabelle


----------



## ryan s

So the people who don't believe (like myself, having used multiple Class A/Bs over the years and running tube front ends on my current amps...which should, by all accounts, make them warmer than _anything_ short of a full push-pull setup) have delusions of grandeur? :surprised: 

Bring your ears along and pay RC a visit...let's make it official  

Saying that others have a God Complex is stooping to "our level," if you will. Elitism at its finest.


----------



## Candisa

Whatever


----------



## 94VG30DE

Candisa said:


> I guess I'm very unlucky with my great hearing...
> 
> Isabelle


Yeah that sounds pretty awful. I can't imagine having hearing that good, and having to buy equipment accordingly. Luckily I have been turning a wrench for long enough that the difference in detail of my amps is lost somewhere between the impact gun and the air hammer. It keeps the hobby cheaper  

So can you tune a system by ear off pink noise? B/c I only know a few people that I have heard that can do it, and that is the most awesome thing ever to me.


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## Candisa

I can't tune by ear on pink noise, but I can tune buy ear with help of a couple songs I really really know and then check with pink noise + RTA and see I've got everything in a smooth line with a maximum of about 1.5dB between a frequency and a frequency that is 1/3 octave further/earlier in the spectrum.

I guess I should listen to some pink noise more (but why would I do that?) and maybe then I could use my ears as an RTA 

Isabelle


----------



## The Baron Groog

nperkins said:


> Also please remember... It was very bright BEFORE the amp.. So its not the amp. The amp actually helped ALOT.


So amps don't sound different? How were they powered "BEFORE the amp"

Perhaps you're confusing harshness with distortion caused by lack of power? If the volume is the same, the speaker is the same and the install is the same how could it be anything other than the amp that has changed the sound?

RE the baffle the tweeter is mounted in-a friend tried the "$2" trick and made no audible difference to him in his set up, using HAT tweeters (never heard it myself)

RE the amps I agree with Candisa:

I've replaced my old directed 5ch with an Audison SRX4.300 and the difference in tone was immediately noticable. I'd never been unhappy with the Directed's performance (for what it was) but the Audison is in a different league-much warmer and smoother in the HF range with less harshness. That comparison was carried out on stock 6x8s in my old Ford Mondeo (never bothered changing the mids as wasn't keeping the car but couldn't cope with the mediocre standard system) Yes, the Audison is more powerful-but at the same volume the Audison kicked the DEI's ass and never pushed things that far as I wanted to sell the car with the stock speakers still in it.

If all amps sounded the same then power would be the only distinguishing feature.

RCA's make a difference too-and they're just wires! And yes, I did a blind listening test on those-myself and a dozen colleagues could tell the difference immediately between a budget RCA and a Chord set(and no, I don't sell Chord)

Speaker wire you'd have a hard time convincing me of....in a car environment anyway!


----------



## Candisa

I'm glad I'm not the only one here that does hear the difference in tone between amps and that I'm not the only one that finds an Audison amp has a warmer, smoother sound than most cheap USA-designed amps.

I totally agree you won't hear the difference in speakercable (as long as it's thick enough), especially in cars, but if there are people out there that are convinced they do hear the difference, good for them and great for economy.

I partially agree that RCA-cables can make a difference in sound. IMO you shouldn't hear the difference in 2 different good-quality RCA-cables, but a lot of cheap and even not so cheap ready-made RCA-cables out there are just crap. That's why I bought over a 100ft. of great double-shielded RCA-cable, a bag full of metal RCA-plugs and a soldering station, so I can build my own RCA-cables the next few years.
All of this stuff together, including the soldering station, was cheaper than buy the same amount of good-quality (and by that, I don't mean super-expensive snake-oil stuff you have to keep away from the ground with special stands) ready-made cables.

Isabelle


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## kyheng

^Soon I will be the next fellow that will say Audison amps are warmer(joining the group).....
As for speaker cables, it is very subjective to say there's difference. What I will see is, metal compositions used. If a person is comparing copper to copper, I doubt he can really hear there's difference. But if were to compare silver plated copper with copper, it may have difference. This same goes to RCA cables.


----------



## The Baron Groog

People believe what they want to-as the old saying goes: "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink"


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## The Baron Groog

kyheng said:


> ^Soon I will be the next fellow that will say Audison amps are warmer(joining the group).....
> As for speaker cables, it is very subjective to say there's difference. What I will see is, metal compositions used. If a person is comparing copper to copper, I doubt he can really hear there's difference. But if were to compare silver plated copper with copper, it may have difference. This same goes to RCA cables.


Hope you find that to be true

Speaker cable is only about current carrying and installation flexibility, silver plated or not it won't make any difference if the current capacity is the same (ignoring minor inductive/capacitive differences-which are generally so much smaller than driver effects so can be considered neglidgable) I have read about a blind test comparing coat hanger wire to expensive speaker cable-the 5 home hi-fi "audiophiles" couldn't tell the difference. Electron in one end and another out the other...

RCA's is more to do with noise rejection in a car environment IMHO-couldn't be arsed making my own and got some decent stinger's knocking around so will use them-also have some not so decent stingers-will have to do a test


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## Candisa

It's because I want to be sure about the noise rejection that I make my own RCA-cables with good quality cable and full metal plugs.
For the price I paid for all this stuff, you get crappy cable with plastic plugs...


----------



## Austin

Candisa said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one here that does hear the difference in tone between amps and that I'm not the only one that finds an Audison amp has a warmer, smoother sound than most cheap USA-designed amps.
> 
> I totally agree you won't hear the difference in speakercable (as long as it's thick enough), especially in cars, but if there are people out there that are convinced they do hear the difference, good for them and great for economy.
> 
> I partially agree that RCA-cables can make a difference in sound. IMO you shouldn't hear the difference in 2 different good-quality RCA-cables, but a lot of cheap and even not so cheap ready-made RCA-cables out there are just crap. That's why I bought over a 100ft. of great double-shielded RCA-cable, a bag full of metal RCA-plugs and a soldering station, so I can build my own RCA-cables the next few years.
> All of this stuff together, including the soldering station, was cheaper than buy the same amount of good-quality (and by that, I don't mean super-expensive snake-oil stuff you have to keep away from the ground with special stands) ready-made cables.
> 
> Isabelle



So you are saying my system isn't to its full potential since i am using "ready made" rcas? I got them from monoprice:

For only $0.74 each when QTY 50+ purchased - 2 RCA Plug/2 RCA Plug M/M Cable - 6ft | 2-RCA Audio Cables <From crossover to amps
For only $3.58 each when QTY 50+ purchased - PREMIUM 2 RCA Plug/2 RCA Plug M/M 22AWG Cable - 15ft | 2-RCA Audio Cables <for sub to crossover

And i am using another rca from a cheap amp kit...

No i have not changed them out with fancy ones with big names on them because but my system sounds perfectly fine to me. I will not change them out because i think it is stupid to try to get some better sound out of a cable. Now if i had some interference then yes i may try to reroute them or possible if i was given an expensive cable i would try that but i would not spend money on something so lucrative. I would first try to change my install or speakers. In this topic the OP needs to take the tweets out and set them on a towel on the dash firing away from the windshield to see if it fixes it. Which Most likely will. It's not the goddamn amp, and trying the different position is FREE.

EDIT: now i am looking into making my own rcas but not to better my sound, so i can make them correct lengths and make them look better. Also so i can say i made them and that is about it. I wouldn't venture out to make my own to try and make my sound better.

I have read through this whole thread and everytime you argue against people who say you can't hear a difference you say "I know that these amps sound more harsh and these warmer". That right there is influencing your ears and what you hear. When you know X amp that sounds "warmer" is in your car, you make yourself hear the sound that way. Same goes for all other amps.

Also, hearing the difference between .1 or .2 percent thd and .01 is pretty impossible IMO. I would love to have two amps or even five with different thd's to see if you can tell the difference and tell me which has higher or lower distortion.

Another interesting experiment would be to have an amp that you think is "warmer" put inside an amp that sounds harsh to see if you think it sounds harsh just because it is X amp when it really isn't.


----------



## XC-C30

She's not saying that. She's saying that the chance of noice-induction is greater with cheaper/single shielded cables, and that you can make your own better qualite for the same money, since there can be a huge difference in the quality of the materials being used by manufacturers.


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## Candisa

Indeed, there is NOWHERE I've said changing out RCA cables *will* improve sound quality or change the sound.
I DO say, if you use cheap RCA-cables with plastic plugs and low quality cable, and you have noise-issues, there's a chance a set of better RCA-cables ran in the exact same places might solve the issue.

And yes, I actually did double-blind tests (so I don't know to what I'm listening) between 2 amps I said I would hear the difference between, and I have actually proven my point with a 9/10 rate. I had the first one wrong since the system already sounded reasonably warm with the harsher amp, so I tought I was listening to the warmer amp. If I knew the speakers before I did the test, I would have gotten 10 out of 10.


You admit YOU don't hear the difference between a .2% and a .01% THD amp. It's not because YOU don't hear it, that nobody hears it. THD is easily measurable, so if a mic can pick it up, why wouldn't my ears can?

Isabelle


----------



## Austin

Candisa said:


> so if a mic can pick it up, why wouldn't my ears can?
> 
> Isabelle


Because no human ear can equate to a microphone and the human ear, no matter how well it can hear, cannot hear such tiny differences. 

Here is a good read:



> Everest quotes research indicating that amplitude distortion has to reach a level of 3% to be audible. However this varies greatly depending on the distortion harmonic products, and on the sound source. More on this below. Good CD players, amplifiers and pre-amplifiers typically have distortion levels of 0.1% or less. (Tube amps typically have higher distortion). Loudspeakers are the weak link regarding distortion. It is hard to even get information on loudspeaker distortion since it looks embarrassing compared to the values advertised for electronics. I measured 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion of my sound system end-to-end using my CLIO sound measuring system. Since speaker distortion dominates, this is essentially a measurement of speaker distortion. The measurement was made using one speaker; with two speakers the distortion would be the same, but the SPL levels would increase 6 dB for the two lower frequency bands, and 3 dB for the upper bands. The entire measured distortion curve at the higher power level is shown in the section on final system measurements.


Source: Music and the Human Ear


----------



## Candisa

And your point is...?

The human ear is an 'enclosure' with a membrane that picks up vibrating air and sending that signal to the brain that converts it into what we experience as sound.
Just like a measuring mic is a tube with a membrane that picks up vibrating air and sending it to a computer that converts it into a plot...

Isabelle


----------



## 89grand

It took me forever to try and find the right combination of amplifiers, speakers, RCA's, power wire and speaker wire. With numerous brands of each item, there were thousands of possible combination's. Finding the right one was not only exhausting, but stupid expensive.

Every time I thought I was getting close, I'd realize that the particular speaker wire I had already ran didn't jive with the power wire I already ran. So I'd try to swap out amps instead hoping that would work, but then I'd realize that while the speaker wire, power wire and amp now grooved, the speakers were wrong for that set up. So I'd swap out speakers only to find now that the power wire caused an increase of .000243% distortion that wasn't present before, also 25khz was down .013db. Then, I'd switch out the power wire and distortion would improved by .00624%, but 25khz would be down .00372db. I finally said "**** it" and sold the **** and put back in the stock system. I just couldn't find the right combination. And when I did, I wondered if it could be better still, and then would screw it up again.


----------



## Candisa

-sigh-


----------



## ErinH

Candisa said:


> You admit YOU don't hear the difference between a .2% and a .01% THD amp. It's not because YOU don't hear it, that nobody hears it. THD is easily measurable, so if a mic can pick it up, why wouldn't my ears can?
> 
> Isabelle


0.2% and 0.01% THD is miniscule. Have you proven to yourself you can hear the difference? 

There's a THD test you can take online. I suggest giving it a whirl. I think you'd be very surprised at how insensitive your ears are to THD levels.


----------



## Candisa

I did double-blind tests with different amps and yes, I heard the difference very easily. I don't know for sure if it was the THD that's responsible for the difference in sound, but I can't think of something else that could cause this difference in sound between amps (maybe the dampening factor*?)

*(uh oh, I think I just started another discussion )

Isabelle


----------



## ErinH

Candisa said:


> I did double-blind tests with different amps and yes, I heard the difference very easily. I don't know for sure if it was the THD that's responsible for the difference in sound, but I can't think of something else that could cause this difference in sound between amps (maybe the dampening factor*?)


Well, one thing for sure that could cause a difference is frequency response.
I'd bet any differences you heard could trace back to that instead of THD, given that THD at that level is intelligible (according to the research I've seen/read). 

Amplifiers can easily have a different frequency response. I'm sure you've seen some of the frequency range spec'd as "xhz-xhz, +/- xdB". I'm sure other factors could be included as well. 
IOW, I wouldn't say that THD levels were the sole (if any contributing) reason you heard a difference.
Unless you're able to measure and show data that supports only the THD levels changing, I wouldn't base my claim on that test.


----------



## Austin

89grand said:


> It took me forever to try and find the right combination of amplifiers, speakers, RCA's, power wire and speaker wire. With numerous brands of each item, there were thousands of possible combination's. Finding the right one was not only exhausting, but stupid expensive.
> 
> Every time I thought I was getting close, I'd realize that the particular speaker wire I had already ran didn't jive with the power wire I already ran. So I'd try to swap out amps instead hoping that would work, but then I'd realize that while the speaker wire, power wire and amp now grooved, the speakers were wrong for that set up. So I'd swap out speakers only to find now that the power wire caused an increase of .000243% distortion that wasn't present before, also 25khz was down .013db. Then, I'd switch out the power wire and distortion would improved by .00624%, but 25khz would be down .00372db. I finally said "**** it" and sold the **** and put back in the stock system. I just couldn't find the right combination. And when I did, I wondered if it could be better still, and then would screw it up again.



^ This here just made my day so much better. :laugh:



Candisa said:


> And your point is...?
> 
> Isabelle


That it wasn't the worse thd that made the kenwood sound better than the steg or w/e you had. You knowingly switched out the two amps and knew what amp was in the car when you were doing critical listening, therefore you have no technical standing to say this amp is better with these speakers than the other amp. End of story. I don't care how many tests or amp swaps you have done, it needs to be proven, not just said by you typing it. No one here will believe you until you provide authentic test data that you have performed exceptionally in a double blind test. Not something you did in your basement with a buddy. (now i know you havent said how or where you did your tests, i am just making a point)


----------



## 89grand

Candisa said:


> I did double-blind tests with different amps and yes, I heard the difference very easily. I don't know for sure if it was the THD that's responsible for the difference in sound, but I can't think of something else that could cause this difference in sound between amps (maybe the dampening factor*?)
> 
> *(uh oh, I think I just started another discussion )
> 
> Isabelle


Maybe you heard some on board processing in the amp, you certainly did not hear THD below the threshold of human hearing, or damping factor, or slew rate, or frequency response out side 20-20,000hz, or channel separation unless you had one faulty amp.


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## Candisa

Maybe, but I know I tuned the hell out of my Focal-Steg combination back in 2005 and I wasn't able to get the warm sound of the Focal-Kenwood combination that I had before out of it, so I'm still convinced the sonic signature of an amp can do things with the sound that can't be easily tuned...

Isabelle


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## Dangerranger

If there were any difference then it was either an extreme power difference/one being driven into clipping, or a frequency response issue. focal tweeters aren't exactly renowned for power handling. Or low distortion for that matter. Most of their car audio tweeters are junk, no offense to your prior setup.

If your hearing were able to hear the difference in THD, then you'd be fully capable of hearing a difference in the amplifier with just a turn of the volume knob as distortion is lowest just before overloading the output devices.


----------



## Candisa

The power of both amps was about the same.

I know those Focal caraudio tweeters aren't very good, no offence taken. I even hate the Utopia Be's. 
It didn't take long for me to go active and replace the tweeters by a pair of Dynaudio MD100s


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## Dangerranger

Candisa said:


> The power of both amps was about the same.


That really depends. On paper maybe, in reality that will depend on how tightly each amplifier is regulated, how the amp is rated in itself as many are underrated..

I'm not here to claim that there aren't certain situations that could make an amplifier sound "different" than another. A lot of amplifiers use a lot of negative feedback, or bipolar output devices, which are very linear but when they clip they clip HARD. Power output is pretty self explanatory realistically and an oscilloscope is key if you want to test what said amplifiers really put out. Some (but very few) amplifiers have an "equalized" output for a signature sound.

What I will say is that if you put yourself in a situation to hear said differences, it's not because of a golden ear or anything along those lines. Far from it. There is a point that all people can easily hear a difference. In your final setup you're not going to want to create the conditions that make a difference in "amplifier sound", because at that point you're going to be driving the amplifier into extreme levels of clipping and your speakers aren't going to thank you much for it. And if someone designs an amplifier with a set EQ curve, I'm simply leaving it on the shelf to collect dust. There is no "x factor" to amplifier, any differences are measurable and can be interpreted easily.

Any difference in amplifiers such as SET tube amps can be designed into a solid state, but why would you want the lack of damping realistically? some SET amps have such a low damping that it can affect the overall sound of the final system. Great. But why the hell would anyone want it? 

Nothing about this hobby is a production. It's all REproduction. In other words, it's science. You can't evaluate speakers, amplifiers, or anything else like you could a photograph or painting. A reproduction is judged solely by it's accuracy compared to the original production Get the lowest distortion products you can afford that fit the application and be done with it.


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## Candisa

I must disagree with your opinion that sound is pure science and cannot be evaluated like a photograph or painting.

I've heard many installs, and I haven't heard 2 installs that sound exactly the same. Does this mean there's only 1 of them, or even none them sound "right"?


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

Candisa said:


> Maybe, but I know I tuned the hell out of my Focal-Steg combination back in 2005 and I wasn't able to get the warm sound of the Focal-Kenwood combination that I had before out of it, *so I'm still convinced the sonic signature of an amp can do things with the sound that can't be easily tuned...*
> 
> Isabelle


I have to agree with you. I'm not sure why many don't understand to that the sonic signature of an amp can be tailored to what the manufacture whats it to be.


----------



## kyheng

How about comparing the first generation full range class D with a class AB amp, different amps playing the same speakers? 
But really, comparing different company's amps with different classes is a dumb. Like someone like to compare his Zapco(which most of the line ups are class AB) to a JL Audio.....


----------



## Dangerranger

Candisa said:


> I must disagree with your opinion that sound is pure science and cannot be evaluated like a photograph or painting.


That depends on what you're evaluating. If you're evaluating the reproduction compared to the original reference material, you can evaluate subjectively and objectively. 

But if you're doing nothing but evaluating equipment to give this reproduction, subjectivity poses a LOT of problems if not combined with objective data. Those that don't measure simply do not know. A lot pretend to, a lot will claim that the right measurements do not exist to properly evaluate performance, but those people are usually the ones that either can't measure properly, can't interpret the measurements properly, or simply don't want to know the ugly truth about a driver or piece of equipment in question because it doesn't tell them what they want to hear.

Things such as amplifier sonics: You can't answer a question with roots in objective results using democracy as the deciding factor. The question of whether an amplifier has an inherent sonic signature isn't answered any more definitively based on a deciding vote. Just as if 80% of people said the tooth fairy and easter bunny exist, it's not magically going to create a creature that puts quarters under your pillow or brings chocolate to you in April. There have been many controlled scientific tests conducted over the last few decades on the biggest self proclaimed golden eared snobs in many different settings and the answer has always come out exactly the same.

The fact of the matter is if anyone COULD prove that they can hear such differences, they'd be the subject of so many tests, written up in so many magazines, making so much money and getting so many offers to review equipment subjectively that they'd make a very good living off of it.

But audiophiles take too much pride to accept it I suppose. They want to believe they're a step above and convince themselves or others that they are in fact different. Or they just want the status of justifying owning expensive equipment or at least equipment exclusive to their social network. More often people hear with their eyes. Whatever it is, I do know it costs people a hell of a lot more money and costs them a whole lot of time that could have been spent on something that makes a difference, and they're making the manufacturers very happy, rich people in the process.



Candisa said:


> I've heard many installs, and I haven't heard 2 installs that sound exactly the same. Does this mean there's only 1 of them, or even none them sound "right"?


That's exactly what I'm saying. And none would be the correct thing to state. What I mean by that is that no install in a car, or even a home, offers a perfectly accurate reproduction of the original content. Some are more convincing than others, but even the best systems only give the occasional "wow, that sounded just like I was there" and that's about it. Probably the best I've heard in that sense would be dipoles in a home such as the Linkwitz Orion design or similarly, electrostatic panels when in the sweet spot. But even then they don't offer the dynamics of live music like you get from a well designed horn system.

That's not to say a lot of systems don't sound good, or pleasant. Far from it. You can certainly build an enjoyable audio system despite a vehicle's garbage acoustic environment. but sometimes you've just got to be a realist and admit the limitations of the environment itself and live with them and make the most out of what you have to work with. Throwing money at it on equipment that's proven not to make a difference isn't going to help the fact that you're trying to reproduce accurate sound in an environment that isn't much better than a telephone booth.


----------



## Dangerranger

H-Audio - AKA - Here-I-Come said:


> I have to agree with you. I'm not sure why many don't understand to that the sonic signature of an amp can be tailored to what the manufacture whats it to be.


If they tailor to a certain "sound" then that manufacturer is pushing dogshit across the counter. And I can't think of a solid state amplifier on the market that is tailored any way other than the way it's been done for the last 20-30 years, with the exception of a few amplifiers with a built in EQ curve such as the older RF punch amps. Manufacturers are not often innovators in this area, they mostly use a cookie cutter board from Asia and simply encase it in something with their logo on it and be done with it. the better manufacturers recruit engineers that have done numerous other products.

And realistically, what exactly are they tailoring unless it has a signal processor built into it? The linearity of the amplifier itself? Such as the MOSFET transistor approach vs using more Bipolar transistors as they're more linear such as Zeff uses in his designs? The endless debate over using negative feedback? Please enlighten


----------



## 89grand

I agree 100% with Dangerranger. Other than some processing in the amp, basically some pre built in eq, which would make the amp a piece of **** in my opinion, how exactly would one tailor the sound? Granted, and extremely poor design could alter the sound, but it surely isn't "voiced" it's just a ****ty design. Other than that, a certain brand of caps, diodes or resistors is not going to effect the overall sound, and certainly not in anyway that a designer could predict before hand.


----------



## Candisa

So you guys say either Genesis or Audison makes crappy amps?
I definitely hear the difference between those 2, especially in the higher-end lines (Series 3 vs. VRx), so since those do NOT sound the same (use your f***ing ears people!), at least one of them has to be ****ty?

If you guys WANT to believe every amp sounds the same, fine by me...
All I know is that listening and analyzing the sound of different gear actually SAVED me money.
If I'd have chosen to remain deaf, I'd probably still be shopping at the store I used to untill a year or 4 ago and now have way too expensive speakers on way too expensive amps and STILL not be happy without knowing why!

Now, I'll be running $10 tweeters, $60 mids and $95 midbasswoofers (that are able to do subless with authority, if I didn't need that, I would have bought <$50 midbasswoofers) on $325 (Genesis Dual Mono's) and $200 (Clarion APA4300HX) used amps.

If I were a "snobby audiophile", I'd probably spent that entire budget on an overpriced component set or a single amplifier alone!

What's next? All speakers can be tuned to sound exactly the same? :laugh:


----------



## subwoofery

Agreed... I can hear the difference between higher end amplifiers. 
I have a Genny DMX, a Sinfoni Prestigio, a US Amps TU-4360 (modded) and a Milbert BaM-235. 
They are all class A/B. I can hear a difference between those. I had extensive listenning with each one. 

Maybe it's because I'm using Horns that are 107dB efficient - or maybe not. 
Maybe it's because I'm used to my system - or maybe not. 
Maybe coz I'm using good cooper RCAs - or maybe not. 
Maybe I have good ears - humm... can't be that. 

Come on people, anyone can hear a difference between a Genny and a VRx (both are at the extremes of the spectrum) 

If I really wanted, I would send my Milbert to Richard just to prove that his challenge doesn't always work... And yes, Milbert is also class A/B 
There are some harmonics that can't be created with an EQ. 

Kelvin 

PS: if I'm wrong then I'm happy I have audiophile ears


----------



## kyheng

Tolerence level of each components will make some difference, like lower end models using +-20% while higher end using +-3%.
That's why certain high end amp really cost a human body parts......


----------



## 89grand

I don't believe most here could pick out speakers either, if they are playing within their intended pass band. If amps and speakers were easy to tell apart, wouldn't all of you supposed "audiophiles" have finally reached an agreement on what amps and speakers to use?

Install and tuning are so much more important than the brand of gear. I don't put much if any stock in it, but since many here do I'll ask how it is, that so many different brands of equipment have won sound quality competitions. 

One the idea of component tolerance, with resistors, you're only likely to see 5% and 1% tolerances, and most 5% parts don't deviate anywhere near that amount, in fact they are often nearly spot on. I measured many of them to know. The only difference is a 5% part could deviate up to 5% and not be considered a reject by the manufacturer. It also very much depends on what the resistor is doing in the circuit. It's quite possible that a +/- 5% difference makes no difference. Capacitors are mostly 10 and 20%, but the same thing applies there too. 

Take a look inside an amplifier, it almost guaranteed to be built to Class 2 IPC standards, all of them regardless of who's name is on it, but rarely do you see an amp where every component is on the fringe of failing Class 2 standards. Most modern circuit board equipment is easily capable of exceeding Class 3 and military specs. I could sell amps and claim they are built to Class 3 standards and some people would assume that they are better, but they'd be exactly the same as an amp built to Class 2. That is the same as believing the lower the tolerance of a part assures it's actually better, it doesn't.


----------



## Candisa

I don't think you can say Genesis Series 3 amps, Audison VRx amps, Sinfoni amps, Milbert amps... are low-end?

subwoofery: there's indeed a HUGE difference in sound between Audison VRx and Genesis Series 3, that's why I gave this example, that's like comparing a clay-oven to a freezer 

Isabelle


----------



## MarkZ

Candisa said:


> I did double-blind tests with different amps and yes, I heard the difference very easily.


How, exactly, does one perform a double blind test with in-car amplifiers? That's no easy feat without the right equipment or setup...


----------



## MarkZ

Candisa said:


> What's next? All speakers can be tuned to sound exactly the same? :laugh:


Don't let Andy hear you mock him.


----------



## MarkZ

89grand said:


> One the idea of component tolerance, with resistors, you're only likely to see 5% and 1% tolerances, and most 5% parts don't deviate anywhere near that amount, in fact they are often nearly spot on. I measured many of them to know. The only difference is a 5% part could deviate up to 5% and not be considered a reject by the manufacturer. It also very much depends on what the resistor is doing in the circuit. It's quite possible that a +/- 5% difference makes no difference. Capacitors are mostly 10 and 20%, but the same thing applies there too.


^^^ this

Let me add to what 89grand is saying. Why don't component tolerances matter much? Because most of the components are chosen to have _arbitrary values_. Haven't you guys ever noticed that resistors and capacitors come in prepackaged values? You can get 47k ohm resistors, but not 48.3k ohm resistors. So, do manufacturers put 3 resistors in series to create 48.3k ohms? No. Because in most parts of the amplifier, it's only necessary to be within a range of values. So they round to 47k. Especially in the small signal stages. Ironically, precision is especially useful in the crossover stage of the amp -- the part where most of you purists want to get rid of anyway. 

If you want to build a better amplifier (lower THD, lower noise, and flatter FR), component tolerances would be the last place you'd turn to. In fact, the best designs make it so that component tolerances are unimportant (with the possible exception of matching output devices/drivers).


----------



## kyheng

^^^^Well said and thanks to clear my doubts on this. I have a fellow when doing his DIY tube amp, he want a capacitor that only have +-3%.... And he insisted that it will make alot of difference....


----------



## ErinH

89grand said:


> I don't believe most here could pick out speakers either, if they are playing within their intended pass band.


I disagree entirely.
Speakers have their own characterisitics that give them a certain sound. If you are a/b'ing speakers, and keeping everything else the same, I'm quite certain most everyone here could tell that they're listening to different drivers. Could they tell you which is which? Maybe not. But they most certainly could tell a difference. Hell, look at the 3-4" midrange shootout. Blind testing, and they could tell a difference. 

Certain gear I've ran have had unsatisfying traits and therefore I traded them out. I'm sure you've done the same. Have you not ever traded out another speaker because it didn't 'sound' right/good? We've been around a while, so I figure you have. Maybe not, though.



89grand said:


> If amps and speakers were easy to tell apart, wouldn't all of you supposed "audiophiles" have finally reached an agreement on what amps and speakers to use?


Nope. Because we're all still basing our choices on subjectivity. 
I think the proper statement would be "if we could all agree on what a system is supposed to sound like, wouldn't we all agree on what speakers and amps to use". 
As you've seen, the topic of 'what should it sound like' is hot debate. 





89grand said:


> Install and tuning are so much more important than the brand of gear. I don't put much if any stock in it, but since many here do I'll ask how it is, that so many different brands of equipment have won sound quality competitions.


Car audio competitions are based on much more than tonality. There are many technical aspects (width, height, focus, center, etc). Tonality is the biggest difference a driver can make, IMO, yet it's only given a possible 5 points, IIRC on the scoresheet.. At least, that's the one I attribute to not being able to be tuned as easily as some other aspects. For example, some say certain speakers image better. I believe, at least in a car, that can be remedied by the DSP we use. I don't feel the same way about a speaker mainly based on it's IMD. Not all drivers are created equal. 





89grand said:


> One the idea of component tolerance, with resistors, you're only likely to see 5% and 1% tolerances, and most 5% parts don't deviate anywhere near that amount, in fact they are often nearly spot on. I measured many of them to know. The only difference is a 5% part could deviate up to 5% and not be considered a reject by the manufacturer. It also very much depends on what the resistor is doing in the circuit. It's quite possible that a +/- 5% difference makes no difference. Capacitors are mostly 10 and 20%, but the same thing applies there too.


Hate to sound argumentative, but I disagree here, too. Capacitance tolerance can make _quite_ a difference. Say you choose a 10uF cap for a crossover of around 4000hz. You get a cap that has an actual value of 9uf (10% tolerance). That puts the crossover at 4500hz. On its own, it's not a big deal. In a system it is. If your other cap was the value it was supposed to be then you have 500hz difference. I've noticed 'walking' stages because of this in the little setups I've toyed around with. The first time I noticed it, I didn't even think about the cap tolerance. After some reading and measuring my own, I realized that it was likely the contributor. I haven't a/b'd it, but it's simple enough to test: go outside to your car and set your tweeter/mid crossover points about 500hz apart between left and right and keep the same slope. See if you notice the difference. Surely you'll notice some pull to one side.
Now, just imagine that the other cap had the 10% going the other way. Now you've got 3600hz and 4500hz points. Nearly a 900hz difference. It's a numbers game. At this band, it's very possible to hear the differences. 

Now, how does this fare for the amplifier sonics discussion? I have no idea. I do, however, see the case that tolerances could make a difference. My example was simply a 1st order crossover; a case where hearing the difference is quite easy. In an amp, with hundreds of parts?... I can see where it'd be much harder to hear a difference. Especially when you're not even comparing the same thing as you are with a 1st order slope on left/right speakers and varying crossover point effectively be ~500hz+.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

Question: Does quality of parts make a difference or should I ask is there a difference in the Quality of parts such as Caps, resistors, Coils and the such?

Is there a difference in the quality of op amps?

If you agree there is a difference in Quality of of these parts do you think changing them out for the same values will change the sound of a given unit, no matter amp, head unit, or processor or even passive crossover.

If you are saying the quality of parts does not make a difference. Then way we do modify our units. The changing of my .50 JRC op-amps in my BitOne.1 to some really nice Analog Device op-amps and better coupling caps did some really nice things for my BitOne.1. I'm here to tell you it did and in a noticeable way. And yes it was test on the same amps, with the same speakers with the same settings. Same thing with my Modded DRX9255, this thing is like the David Banner (stock) and the Incredible Hulk (modded unit), it just no comparison. 

I'm no EE, but I do know what i hear. And I can tell you this, the *ARC 2075SE* I've been testing sounds nothing like my *Sinfoni Allegro* on in the same system on the same drivers, No matter what I do to the system. Both are amazing amps and both sound outstanding, but different. In my test system, for the drivers I'm using the Sinfoni suite my taste better.

Believe me, wish there wasn't a difference in the sound well built amps, I truly do. I would save me a ton of money. But over the years I have test just about very amp budget amp that has been recommend and use just about every high-end amp I could get my hands on for testing. And I here to tell you all well built amps are not created equal. There are many budget amps out there that are super nice and can be used to build great sounding systems. I for one am very taken by the Aura RPM Stage2 amps, these are some really nice amps and if you can find them they are about the best budget amps I have found, also the Clarion APX amps also. But neither are my sinfoni amps. All are solid designs, but way is it when the Sinfoni's are add to the system there is a more detail, a richer, and open sound add to the same system, why is thing a little more 3D and a tad more focused on the stage.

I could built an amazing sounding system with the Aura and i plan to do just that, but they are no Sinfoni or Arc Audio SE. But please don't get me wrong here, amps are by no way the end all of the way a system will sound. But I have done to many tests on amp speaker combos and the right amp/speaker combo Does make a difference in the way things sound.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

bikinpunk said:


> I disagree entirely.
> Speakers have their own characterisitics that give them a certain sound. If you are a/b'ing speakers, and keeping everything else the same, I'm quite certain most everyone here could tell that they're listening to different drivers. Could they tell you which is which? Maybe not. But they most certainly could tell a difference. Hell, look at the 3-4" midrange shootout. Blind testing, and they could tell a difference.
> 
> Certain gear I've ran have had unsatisfying traits and therefore I traded them out. I'm sure you've done the same. Have you not ever traded out another speaker because it didn't 'sound' right/good? We've been around a while, so I figure you have. Maybe not, though.


Totally agreed. This one shouldn't even be a debate on speakers sounding different. I don't think many if any can tell you what brand of drivers are being use, if a blind change was made, but just about anyone who has listen to a stereo can here the difference in differently designed drivers. For that fact same design drivers with different cone materials. 





bikinpunk said:


> Nope. Because we're all still basing our choices on subjectivity.
> I think the proper statement would be "if we could all agree on what a system is supposed to sound like, wouldn't we all agree on what speakers and amps to use".
> As you've seen, the topic of 'what should it sound like' is hot debate.


Totally agree again. But you and I know and most everyone here knows this one will never happen. To many different listening tastes.




bikinpunk said:


> Car audio competitions are based on much more than tonality. There are many technical aspects (width, height, focus, center, etc). Tonality is the biggest difference a driver can make, IMO, yet it's only given a possible 5 points, IIRC on the scoresheet.. At least, that's the one I attribute to not being able to be tuned as easily as some other aspects. For example, some say certain speakers image better. I believe, at least in a car, that can be remedied by the DSP we use. I don't feel the same way about a speaker mainly based on it's IMD. Not all drivers are created equal.


No comment as I know how a lot of people fell about audio competitions. 





bikinpunk said:


> Hate to sound argumentative, but I disagree here, too. Capacitance tolerance can make _quite_ a difference. Say you choose a 10uF cap for a crossover of around 4000hz. You get a cap that has an actual value of 9uf (10% tolerance). That puts the crossover at 4500hz. On its own, it's not a big deal. In a system it is. If your other cap was the value it was supposed to be then you have 500hz difference. I've noticed 'walking' stages because of this in the little setups I've toyed around with. The first time I noticed it, I didn't even think about the cap tolerance. After some reading and measuring my own, I realized that it was likely the contributor. I haven't a/b'd it, but it's simple enough to test: go outside to your car and set your tweeter/mid crossover points about 500hz apart between left and right and keep the same slope. See if you notice the difference. Surely you'll notice some pull to one side.
> Now, just imagine that the other cap had the 10% going the other way. Now you've got 3600hz and 4500hz points. Nearly a 900hz difference. It's a numbers game. At this band, it's very possible to hear the differences.
> 
> Now, how does this fare for the amplifier sonics discussion? I have no idea. I do, however, see the case that tolerances could make a difference. My example was simply a 1st order crossover; a case where hearing the difference is quite easy. In an amp, with hundreds of parts?... I can see where it'd be much harder to hear a difference. Especially when you're not even comparing the same thing as you are with a 1st order slope on left/right speakers and varying crossover point effectively be ~500hz+.


Yep see my post above.


----------



## MarkZ

H-Audio - AKA - Here-I-Come said:


> Question: Does quality of parts make a difference or should I ask is there a difference in the Quality of parts such as Caps, resistors, Coils and the such?
> 
> Is there a difference in the quality of op amps?
> 
> If you agree there is a difference in Quality of of these parts do you think changing them out for the same values will change the sound of a given unit, no matter amp, head unit, or processor or even passive crossover.


I'm gonna pull a werewolf here and say: if it sounds different, it will measure differently. 

In general, no, there's not really such a thing as "quality" capacitors and resistors and diodes and transformers and inductors, etc. "Quality" for these items can be almost entirely boiled down to tolerance (which I already discussed) and longevity. The electrical parameters for a resistor, for example, are incredibly simple (LCR properties plus thermal describes everything you want to know about a resistor).

In fact, when designers are putting together circuits, they use what's called a spice model. This spice model contains a set of parameters for each part that fully describes that part's behavior. We can predict whether a part will sound differently from another part based on the measurements of these parameters for a given device.

You said you're not an EE. I'm just telling you that this is how EEs approach things. When folks put together circuits, they're not chefs in a kitchen or artists with a canvas. 

I won't comment on the rest of your comments because they're obviously subjective, so I have nothing to add.


----------



## ErinH

MarkZ said:


> I'm gonna pull a werewolf here and say: if it sounds different, it will measure differently. .


agreed.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

MarkZ said:


> I'm gonna pull a werewolf here and say: if it sounds different, it will measure differently.
> 
> In general, no, there's not really such a thing as "quality" capacitors and resistors and diodes and transformers and inductors, etc. "Quality" for these items can be almost entirely boiled down to tolerance (which I already discussed) and longevity. The electrical parameters for a resistor, for example, are incredibly simple (LCR properties plus thermal describes everything you want to know about a resistor).
> 
> In fact, when designers are putting together circuits, they use what's called a spice model. This spice model contains a set of parameters for each part that fully describes that part's behavior. We can predict whether a part will sound differently from another part based on the measurements of these parameters for a given device.
> 
> You said you're not an EE. I'm just telling you that this is how EEs approach things. When folks put together circuits, they're not chefs in a kitchen or artists with a canvas.
> 
> *I won't comment on the rest of your comments because they're obviously subjective, so I have nothing to add.*


I can somewhat agree with you on the above, well on everything but the statement in bold.

Hearing a difference in 5 different units in not subjective! 

Saying one is better then the other is subjective.

Saying that the way one unit sounds is the way things should sound is subjective, but not that there is a difference in the sound. 

Not only did I hear the difference, but some people who know nothing about the price or who the companies or much about audio all heard the difference. For whatever the reason is/was they sound different, they do/did. If it is built in eqing, class A bias, tweaking it so it rounds off earlier or later, enter clipping smoother etc.... they sound different. 

If you say all amps with the same design sounds the same I would be more inclined to agree. But that is just not the case.


----------



## MarkZ

H-Audio - AKA - Here-I-Come said:


> I can somewhat agree with you on the above, well on everything but the statement in bold.
> 
> Hearing a difference in 5 different units in not subjective!
> 
> Saying one is better then the other is subjective.
> 
> Saying that the way one unit sounds is the way things should sound is subjective, but not that there is a difference in the sound.


Sorry, I should have expanded on that. There was no description in your post about your testing procedure, and what you were testing exactly, to be able to comment on that part of your post. When someone says, "I listened to X and Y and I heard a difference", I call it a subjective comparison because most people don't take the time to control the variables they _think_ they're testing.

Let me put it this way. It's usually pretty difficult to conduct scientific experiments. I usually assume that people do it wrong.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

MarkZ said:


> Sorry, I should have expanded on that. There was no description in your post about your testing procedure, and what you were testing exactly, to be able to comment on that part of your post. When someone says, "I listened to X and Y and I heard a difference", I call it a subjective comparison because most people don't take the time to control the variables they _think_ they're testing.
> 
> Let me put it this way. It's usually pretty difficult to conduct scientific experiments. I usually assume that people do it wrong.


I agree.


----------



## 89grand

bikinpunk said:


> I disagree entirely.
> Speakers have their own characterisitics that give them a certain sound. If you are a/b'ing speakers, and keeping everything else the same, I'm quite certain most everyone here could tell that they're listening to different drivers. Could they tell you which is which? Maybe not. But they most certainly could tell a difference. Hell, look at the 3-4" midrange shootout. Blind testing, and they could tell a difference.
> 
> Certain gear I've ran have had unsatisfying traits and therefore I traded them out. I'm sure you've done the same. Have you not ever traded out another speaker because it didn't 'sound' right/good? We've been around a while, so I figure you have. Maybe not, though.


Wait a minute. I wasn't suggesting that all speakers sound exactly the same. I meant that I don't believe anyone could pick out which speaker they were hearing in a system that was tuned to the particular speaker. In other words, I don't think anyone would know whether they were hearing a Dynaudio vs a Focal midbass, just by listening, even if you thought they sounded different, I doubt anyone could tell which one was which. I think most speakers can be tuned to sound good. The thing here is that people are saying that different means better when they want it to. It's odd that rarely does anyone change gear, whether it be speakers or amps, and say "Wow, it sounds much worse now". The odds of that never happening are next to 0. 

I've swapped out gear myself, usually hoping the system would magically sound better. It was probably my tuning skills, or lack of them, that made me give up on something.:surprised:



bikinpunk said:


> Nope. Because we're all still basing our choices on subjectivity.
> I think the proper statement would be "if we could all agree on what a system is supposed to sound like, wouldn't we all agree on what speakers and amps to use".
> As you've seen, the topic of 'what should it sound like' is hot debate.


That's true, but at least the "audiophiles" should have been able to say "Here's a list of amps not to use because of higher THD, or whatever specs they think they have an issue with".



bikinpunk said:


> Car audio competitions are based on much more than tonality. There are many technical aspects (width, height, focus, center, etc). Tonality is the biggest difference a driver can make, IMO, yet it's only given a possible 5 points, IIRC on the scoresheet.. At least, that's the one I attribute to not being able to be tuned as easily as some other aspects. For example, some say certain speakers image better. I believe, at least in a car, that can be remedied by the DSP we use. I don't feel the same way about a speaker mainly based on it's IMD. Not all drivers are created equal.


My point was that many combination's of amplifiers and speakers have proven to be able to be tuned to sound great. The install and tuning again being at least 90% of it rather than gear.



bikinpunk said:


> Hate to sound argumentative, but I disagree here, too. Capacitance tolerance can make _quite_ a difference. Say you choose a 10uF cap for a crossover of around 4000hz. You get a cap that has an actual value of 9uf (10% tolerance). That puts the crossover at 4500hz. On its own, it's not a big deal. In a system it is. If your other cap was the value it was supposed to be then you have 500hz difference. I've noticed 'walking' stages because of this in the little setups I've toyed around with. The first time I noticed it, I didn't even think about the cap tolerance. After some reading and measuring my own, I realized that it was likely the contributor. I haven't a/b'd it, but it's simple enough to test: go outside to your car and set your tweeter/mid crossover points about 500hz apart between left and right and keep the same slope. See if you notice the difference. Surely you'll notice some pull to one side.
> Now, just imagine that the other cap had the 10% going the other way. Now you've got 3600hz and 4500hz points. Nearly a 900hz difference. It's a numbers game. At this band, it's very possible to hear the differences.
> 
> Now, how does this fare for the amplifier sonics discussion? I have no idea. I do, however, see the case that tolerances could make a difference. My example was simply a 1st order crossover; a case where hearing the difference is quite easy. In an amp, with hundreds of parts?... I can see where it'd be much harder to hear a difference. Especially when you're not even comparing the same thing as you are with a 1st order slope on left/right speakers and varying crossover point effectively be ~500hz+.


I was talking about amplifier design only and not crossovers as this discussion is about amplifiers sounding different, just their amplification circuits. I've already said that onboard processing can certainly contribute to a difference, and a crossover is on board processing. Passive crossovers could easily deviate by the amount you mentioned, with voice coils heating up, components heating up etc and I doubt most people can tell when the crossover points shifts, but anyway, I was saying component tolerances within the pre amp and amp stage makes no difference.


----------



## ErinH

89grand said:


> Wait a minute. I wasn't suggesting that all speakers sound exactly the same. I meant that I don't believe anyone could pick out which speaker they were hearing in a system that was tuned to the particular speaker. In other words, I don't think anyone would know whether they were hearing a Dynaudio vs a Focal midbass, just by listening, even if you thought they sounded different, I doubt anyone could tell which one was which. I think most speakers can be tuned to sound good. The thing here is that people are saying that different means better when they want it to. It's odd that rarely does anyone change gear, whether it be speakers or amps, and say "Wow, it sounds much worse now". The odds of that never happening are next to 0.


Yea, I misunderstood what you were trying to say then. I thought surely you didn't believe one couldn't tell the difference in speakers.
I agree, and said above, that I doubt someone could name which speaker was playing, however, one surely could tell a difference in speakers.



Everything else you quoted... agreed. I think we just repeated each other.


----------



## Candisa

89grand said:


> Wait a minute. I wasn't suggesting that all speakers sound exactly the same. I meant that I don't believe anyone could pick out which speaker they were hearing in a system that was tuned to the particular speaker. In other words, I don't think anyone would know whether they were hearing a Dynaudio vs a Focal midbass, just by listening, even if you thought they sounded different, I doubt anyone could tell which one was which. I think most speakers can be tuned to sound good. The thing here is that people are saying that different means better when they want it to. It's odd that rarely does anyone change gear, whether it be speakers or amps, and say "Wow, it sounds much worse now". The odds of that never happening are next to 0.


I actually said "F*ck this sucks" when I put my Steg amps in, after being used to the Kenwood amps!


> That's true, but at least the "audiophiles" should have been able to say "Here's a list of amps not to use because of higher THD, or whatever specs they think they have an issue with".


There are only 2 parameters than can be an issue for me:
SNR: must be at least 95, experience has proven to me I cannot accept the noise coming from an amp that does about 90dB of SNR in a car, unless I turn them down so much, you can't hear a damn thing when driving 75mph!
Damping factor: Must be at least 100. Pretty much any caraudio amp has no problem multiplying this rate...

But I know one thing for sure: I will NEVER buy an amp again if I already have a particular use and speakers for it, without actually trying it in that setup.
If a speaker-amp combo just sounds terrible without any tuning, then why would I buy that amp and spend a lot of time trying to tune it right, instead of just getting an amp that matches better with the speakers and already sounds better to start with?

I will never just buy some speakers I don't know (unless they're cheap enough to take a risk) or amps (dito) I don't know, throw it together in a car and think "Let's tune this **** until it sounds good"...

Isabelle


----------



## XC-C30

Candisa said:


> I actually said "F*ck this sucks" when I put my Steg amps in, after being used to the Kenwood amps!
> 
> There are only 2 parameters than can be an issue for me:
> SNR: must be at least 95, experience has proven to me I cannot accept the noise coming from an amp that does about 90dB of SNR in a car, unless I turn them down so much, you can't hear a damn thing when driving 75mph!
> Damping factor: Must be at least 100. Pretty much any caraudio amp has no problem multiplying this rate...
> 
> But I know one thing for sure: I will NEVER buy an amp again if I already have a particular use and speakers for it, without actually trying it in that setup.
> If a speaker-amp combo just sounds terrible without any tuning, then why would I buy that amp and spend a lot of time trying to tune it right, instead of just getting an amp that matches better with the speakers and already sounds better to start with?
> 
> I will never just buy some speakers I don't know (unless they're cheap enough to take a risk) or amps (dito) I don't know, throw it together in a car and think "Let's tune this **** until it sounds good"...
> 
> Isabelle



That almost made me think of someone we both know very well....:laugh:
edit: by the way: that person's car has won several EMMA contests this season already. And yes, It sounded like crap! So, NO, sq competitions certainly are NOT a reference to good sound!


----------



## chipss

I deal with this in tube amps a great deal, do coupling caps or resistors make a difference? most EE's so no, out put x formers and power do make a big difference, almost as much a speakers, but for sure speakers can change the voicing of an amp big-time.

Power supplies, make a difference, some sag, and are great for blues, some are super clean, 

*Guitar amps are different and the voicing of distortion is what makes these amps sound way different.*

A clean fender is not like a Marshall super lead, and a Marshall sl is not like a mesa boogie, I can tell these amps apart in a blind test, its would be very hard to eq amps like this to sound the same, the diodes in the Marshall, or the cascaded gain stages of a mesa.
But I think it’s the whole sum of parts used that voice the amp.

I buy into the the mojo of resistors sorting many carbon comps to get the right value, and $30 coupling caps from the 60’s does it make a difference? Nos RCA tubes from the 60’s at $100 a pop? Times nine? 

Its nostalgia, and maybe some ignorance, and a little pride of workmanship doing things the way they used to long ago…
but ill put any amp I build up to the same exact circuit, say a fender reissue, and there is no comparison, I do this every time I see a guy playing a reissue, done it about 6 times now and sold an amp 5 out of 6 

What does this have to do this this thread? Nothing I am just bored.

I say change the tweeters, a less efficient tweeters will take things down a notch, and tweeters are cheep.


----------



## MarkZ

Apples and oranges. Guitar amps are not hi fi amps. They have different design goals in mind, often with the intent of adding significant (>20%) distortion to the signal and high gain structure to saturate early and often. _Especially_ mesas.


----------



## chipss

ahh but it did not start out that way,its not what leo fender was thinking at the time, think guitar amps are at the extream of pleasing distortion, 

then there is morel? not so diffrent my freind, see a distortion plot on one of there drivers?


----------



## MarkZ

Well, it's not all that fair to compare old guitar amps to today's hi fi amps. Even when companies tried to do "clean", and were capable of doing "clean", ... they didn't. Think 60s era Hiwatt. Or Sound City. Clean for guitar amps, still dirty.  And they sure don't bother today. Ever run a guitar or synth directly into your pc and then amplify it with your playback? Sounds like ass.  Even when you correct for the whacked impedance/voltage of the pickups in the guitar.


----------



## chipss

have not tried that mark, but think i will...lol

It’s said that when we do hear even-order harmonic distortion, we tend to like it

this runs from guitar amps to mixing boards, mics, mic pres,compressers, speakers.....IE "warm" sounding

but not car audio amps?

like said....Iam bored


----------



## Dangerranger

Candisa said:


> So you guys say either Genesis or Audison makes crappy amps?


A good amplifier is determined by things other than it's "sound". Namely the engineering put into it and the quality of the parts used. No, Genesis and Audison aren't crappy amps, but they aren't qualified as good amps based on their "sonic signature"



Candisa said:


> I definitely hear the difference between those 2, especially in the higher-end lines (Series 3 vs. VRx), so since those do NOT sound the same (use your f***ing ears people!), at least one of them has to be ****ty?


Again, we come to the point where a controlled test ran by someone with the correct equipment to eliminate variables is necessary, not a slap it in and go scenario. And if we're getting into subjectivist horseshit with amplifiers, why would one be ****ty just because someone didn't like it? What if "their ears" as golden and shiny and good as they've been to them over the years, tell them something that yours simply do not? What if *gasp* their ears are superior to yours? Can't you HEAR that? they taunt you. Or is it just mental masturbation? You could beat a dead horse over a SEAS Excel vs Scanspeak Revelator all day but both are well performing drivers with completely different characteristics and design goals, just because one person didn't like one over the other doesn't make the other one comparatively "****ty". And no, an amplifier isn't designed in the same manner nor does it have those kinds of drastic differences.



Candisa said:


> If you guys WANT to believe every amp sounds the same, fine by me...


If you WANT to argue against literally decades of scientific research on numerous test subjects in controlled tests where there was no agenda, no manipulation, a competent testing environment and methods where variables were eliminated by people much more intelligent than 99% of the people on this forum, feel free. Just as easily as you could point a finger at these people and call them incompetent or ignorant they could say the exact same thing about the subjective crowd that believes they can in fact hear a difference in a *controlled* test. The problem is the odds are against you and you'll find that you're the one that has to climb uphill to prove your point. And until you prove it in a test conducted by someone other than yourself or close friends, someone qualified to conduct such a test, the comments simply will not hold water and will never hold water. Keep in mind to this day NO ONE, not a single person, has proven that they can hear a difference when variables were eliminated. So again I'm not going to argue the end result or that there weren't differences when all was said and done, but I will say that if it were so then you can rest assured the testing methods WERE in fact faulty and probably on many different accounts.

That's not to say that certain things can't affect the sound. That's not to say an amplifier CAN'T sound different. But the design decisions to accomplish this compromise the performance of the equipment to the point that the equipment should be undesirable and written off entirely, and luckily very few such garbage designs exist. And beyond the design, the conditions that do create a difference in said sonics are beyond the limitations of the amplifier to do it's job which is to produce clean power. It would be like evaluating a vehicle based on how it performs after the fact that it's thrown a rod out the side of the engine block. Eventually both are going to leave you on the side of the road if driven to that point.




Candisa said:


> Now, I'll be running $10 tweeters, $60 mids and $95 midbasswoofers (that are able to do subless with authority, if I didn't need that, I would have bought <$50 midbasswoofers) on $325 (Genesis Dual Mono's) and $200 (Clarion APA4300HX) used amps.


Ok. So we're arguing amplifier sonics and bragging about how little we spent on components that produce 20+ times the distortion that any competent amplifier design produces? Really? That's not knocking the equipment or it's abilities but that in itself is pretty damn telling right there.



Candisa said:


> What's next? All speakers can be tuned to sound exactly the same?


That's really apples to oranges because a speaker has so many different aspects that actually do affect the final performance in a very noticeable way even to a toddler or anyone that doesn't give a damn about audio to begin with. It's not difficult at all to drive a speaker past the audible threshold. those midbasses you're using that can go "subless" with authority will be producing large and very noticeable amounts of distortion in the process. it's just a given considering the size of them as well as the non-linearities of the driver as well as things like power compression, inductance and inductance variation, BL linearity, and the sum of the soft parts. In fact at real world volume levels I can all but guarantee you'll be listening to a speaker that's producing well over 10% distortion at certain frequencies if you do decide to go subless. An amplifier has a very simple task that's made out to be one hell of a lot more complicated than it really is and should be.


----------



## chipss

If you WANT to argue against literally decades of scientific research on numerous test subjects in controlled tests 


but who runs there amps in a lab? 

controlled test? a competent testing environment and methods where variables were eliminated

all of these very things are in fact manipulation...a car amp is not intended to be ran in a lab, set up to sound the same as everthing else.... 

who doesnt at times run there amp at some level of clipping? be supprised how many do I bet, 

we dont have golden ears at all, and yes we drive are amps into slight clipping and dont know it .....

I say build an amp that clips real nice, people will call it a warm amp, it will sell like crazy...

yep still bored....

the op's qestion has been thrown out the window while we mentaly masturbate.....DIYMA at its finest...muhahahaha


----------



## The Baron Groog

89grand said:


> I don't believe most here could pick out speakers either, if they are playing within their intended pass band. If amps and speakers were easy to tell apart, wouldn't all of you supposed "audiophiles" have finally reached an agreement on what amps and speakers to use?


If that's the case most of the people on here are wasting their time and money.

I've done various "blind tests" over my years in the car audio industry, I don't claim to have golden ears but I could easily tell one set of speakers from another! I did a blind test with 12 other Pioneer dealers when Pioneer UK launched the PRS range (it was initially launched into just 12 dealers who were deamed skilled enough to sell/install it) and we were all able to pick from the Pioneers and some DLS Iridiums. The test was done in Pioneers listening room at their EU head quarters in Antwerp off a home amplifier. About 10/11 of us prefered the Pioneers-all of us could tell a difference.

Sound is subjective so no one will ever agree on a "perfect" speaker or amplifier.

To be so pig-headed as not to accept people can tell a difference is absurd. I don't profess to know everything and love to learn something new-hence my pressence on this sight-but if there were only one solution to creating the perfect sound everyone would be using it....


----------



## 3fish

passtim said:


> A little trick I used years ago for tweeters firing into the front windshield that were way to bright was to us a small peice of non backed enclosure carpet between the grill and the tweeter. It helps pad down the harshness and if you use matching carpet can look quite nice. This is only if you can't eq the issue though.



I think that application of attenuating materials to surfaces is very interesting to the extent that I've never heard anyone speak of the experimenting or application of various glass glazing to windshield such as used to tint cars and buildings in general which were designed not only to block UV but also attenuate sound ingress or even the application 3M chip guard as sort of "glass dashpad"...

My monkey brain is whirring...


----------



## 89grand

The Baron Groog said:


> If that's the case most of the people on here are wasting their time and money.
> 
> I've done various "blind tests" over my years in the car audio industry, I don't claim to have golden ears but I could easily tell one set of speakers from another! I did a blind test with 12 other Pioneer dealers when Pioneer UK launched the PRS range (it was initially launched into just 12 dealers who were deamed skilled enough to sell/install it) and we were all able to pick from the Pioneers and some DLS Iridiums. The test was done in Pioneers listening room at their EU head quarters in Antwerp off a home amplifier. About 10/11 of us prefered the Pioneers-all of us could tell a difference.
> 
> Sound is subjective so no one will ever agree on a "perfect" speaker or amplifier.
> 
> To be so pig-headed as not to accept people can tell a difference is absurd. I don't profess to know everything and love to learn something new-hence my pressence on this sight-but if there were only one solution to creating the perfect sound everyone would be using it....


God I get sick of arguing non-sense. 

My point was that I bet you couldn't pick the Pioneers over say JBL if they were both tuned to a particular system. You can't just get in any car and name the speakers by listening to them.


----------



## 3fish

Candisa said:


> And yes, I actually did double-blind tests (so I don't know to what I'm listening) between 2 amps I said I would hear the difference between, and I have actually proven my point with a 9/10 rate. I had the first one wrong since the system already sounded reasonably warm with the harsher amp, so I tought I was listening to the warmer amp. If I knew the speakers before I did the test, I would have gotten 10 out of 10.
> 
> 
> You admit YOU don't hear the difference between a .2% and a .01% THD amp. It's not because YOU don't hear it, that nobody hears it. THD is easily measurable, so if a mic can pick it up, why wouldn't my ears can?
> 
> Isabelle


Isabelle, I know for sure that one can train oneself to hear distortion. My hearing acuity has diminished for sure, uh, ac/dc too loud has left ringing in hears, BUT this site with repeated listening and testing has increased my ability to hear this distortion. In some frequencies, I don't measure up to some standards but in others i exceed! But, why is that that in all areas my hearing acuity has improved? Well, because I've used that site to improve my listening.

It seems to me that we who spend so much time on audio should spend quality time learning to listen to/for distortion as much as we learn/train our hearing for tuning purposes - then we can have serious discussion amongst ourselves regarding what one can and can't hear. 

Finally, the carver challenge teaches me that all amps do not sound the same. Period. End of Discussion.


----------



## chipss

in the 80s I worked selling audio in so-cal, we had all are home speakers set up so you could cycle though them, in a big well prepped room, I could blindly pick out my top two favs every time, but that room was my baby, I took care of it and was in there every work day for over a year, ya a sales man I am not…lol

In blind tests most picked the same set, funny thing was most always picked the loudest set. and they were huge Kenwood’s that had great sensitivity and both tweeter domes pushed in and were all beat up, last pair..
they were still there when I left….imaged like crap to me.

I don’t get why one would set up an amp to sound just like the other? Its just not real world car install to me. More a self fulfilling prophecy, with guys in lab cote who use big words, this does not always make them right. 

Blind testing I for sure agree with, each amp set up to sound its best, into clipping, 
And used in the manner …they will be used daily. Not under any restraints,. 

If I had some time with said speakers, bet I could pick em out, I so wish there was a speaker exchange, like a used cd store, I think ya gotta spend some time with gear. Getting the most you can out of it, and that just takes time. The x pro mids I hated right off the bat, but they have been making me smile as of late, not sure if the glue dried, the speakers are broke in, or the phase/x-over/EQ/TA work ??? All the above…??? But they are sounding good. It just took some time.


----------



## chipss

I find this so very true, learned hearing....
my ears ring all the time now, yet my hearing tests are better than they were back in my youth, 

and I belive this is due to playing guitar a bunch, I can key in on a tone better, even though my ears are wasted....





3fish said:


> Isabelle, I know for sure that one can train oneself to hear distortion. My hearing acuity has diminished for sure, uh, ac/dc too loud has left ringing in hears, BUT this site with repeated listening and testing has increased my ability to hear this distortion. In some frequencies, I don't measure up to some standards but in others i exceed! But, why is that that in all areas my hearing acuity has improved? Well, because I've used that site to improve my listening.
> 
> It seems to me that we who spend so much time on audio should spend quality time learning to listen to/for distortion as much as we learn/train our hearing for tuning purposes - then we can have serious discussion amongst ourselves regarding what one can and can't hear.
> 
> Finally, the carver challenge teaches me that all amps do not sound the same. Period. End of Discussion.


----------



## MarkZ

3fish said:


> Finally, the carver challenge teaches me that all amps do not sound the same. Period. End of Discussion.


No, but it seems to demonstrate that amps can be made to sound the same, does it not?


----------



## MarkZ

chipss said:


> in the 80s I worked selling audio in so-cal, we had all are home speakers set up so you could cycle though them, in a big well prepped room, I could blindly pick out my top two favs every time, but that room was my baby, I took care of it and was in there every work day for over a year, ya a sales man I am not…lol
> 
> In blind tests most picked the same set, funny thing was most always picked the loudest set. and they were huge Kenwood’s that had great sensitivity and both tweeter domes pushed in and were all beat up, last pair..
> they were still there when I left….imaged like crap to me.
> 
> I don’t get why one would set up an amp to sound just like the other? Its just not real world car install to me. More a self fulfilling prophecy, with guys in lab cote who use big words, this does not always make them right.
> 
> Blind testing I for sure agree with, each amp set up to sound its best, into clipping,
> And used in the manner …they will be used daily. Not under any restraints,.
> 
> If I had some time with said speakers, bet I could pick em out, I so wish there was a speaker exchange, like a used cd store, I think ya gotta spend some time with gear. Getting the most you can out of it, and that just takes time. The x pro mids I hated right off the bat, but they have been making me smile as of late, not sure if the glue dried, the speakers are broke in, or the phase/x-over/EQ/TA work ??? All the above…??? But they are sounding good. It just took some time.


I agree with just about everything you said, but I don't think you get the rationale of the amp testers.  

The implication from the whole discussion is that if one amp sounds different from another amp, and if it's because they're both being driven into clipping, then the point shouldn't be to find the one that clips the least objectionably... it should be to find the one that isn't going to clip at all. So when people come here and say, "These $1500 amps sound better than my $300 amp, so I think I'm gonna save up for that one," ... our response should be: "Instead of $1500, spend $500 on a high powered amp that isn't going to clip in your application." I think people are losing sight of the best way to tackle their problem when they talk about buying amps with special "sonic signatures" instead of just buying BIGGER amplifiers!

Granted... some people like clipping, and as you pointed out before, distortion can sometimes be pleasing. But I think people need to figure this one out for themselves.


----------



## Dangerranger

3fish said:


> Finally, the carver challenge teaches me that all amps do not sound the same. Period. End of Discussion.


So you're going to instantly trust a bunch of snobs sitting in a circle that blatantly said in that same article:

"We made no effort to do A/B testing, since we feel it does not replicate normal listening conditions, and there is still insubstantial evidence that A/B testing reveals small differences as well as does prolonged listening to each unit under test."

We're back to subjectivism, this time as a "wolf in sheeps clothing" claiming a test being fair and objective.

So now the snobs are sitting around claiming that one sounds "veiled", "dull" the bass sounded different...etc. and after tons of useless verbage end up at the conclusion:

"we now had what sounded like two absolutely identical amplifiers. No matter what speakers we used, every "difference" we thought we had isolated turned out to be there, in equal quantity, when we swapped amplifiers."

"What about the audible differences between transistors, capacitors, internal wiring—all the things that we know contribute to the superiority of no-holds barred amplifiers? What about all the things that amplifier designers have learned during the past 20 years, which enable them to build better amplifiers (at whatever price) than have ever been built before? How could all of these things have been factored into the relatively quick and painless transformation of an average amplifier into a world-beater?"

"It is true that there were no "controls" here—no double-blind precautions against prejudices of various kinds. But the lack of these controls should have, if anything, influenced the outcome in the other direction. We wanted Bob to fail. We wanted to hear a difference. Among other things, it would have reassured us that our ears really are among the best in the business, despite "70dB nulls." "

So in essence, there was no objective test BEFORE these amplifiers were tweaked, to verify that the testers did in fact hear a difference to begin with, it simply automatically assumed the testers did in fact hear what they claimed to...just useless verbage....and in the end, there STILL were no objective test results given and they STILL came to the conclusion that there was no difference to be heard...

Yet this test is credible? It's a bunch of snobby dickbeaters trying to stroke their egos to make themselves somehow sound more interesting and credible than they really have the capacity to be.


----------



## 89grand

All I know is I can hear and taste colors and no one hear can prove I can't, so you have to believe me.


----------



## Dangerranger

MarkZ said:


> The implication from the whole discussion is that if one amp sounds different from another amp, and if it's because they're both being driven into clipping, then the point shouldn't be to find the one that clips the least objectionably...


Exactly. Everything has to be turned into some "all or nothing" type of discussion when it just isn't so. 



MarkZ said:


> I think people are losing sight of the best way to tackle their problem when they talk about buying amps with special "sonic signatures" instead of just buying BIGGER amplifiers!


couldn't agree more.



MarkZ said:


> Granted... some people like clipping, and as you pointed out before, distortion can sometimes be pleasing. But I think people need to figure this one out for themselves.


Yep. Just like people that percieve lots of distortion on the low end as "good bass" when in reality it's just a lot of bass due to the levels of the harmonics produced. After a while it's extremely fatiguing.

Distortion IMO is pleasing in very small doses. Like the above posts mentioning guitar amplifiers. That's well and good, but listen to an amplifier producing 20% distortion for 3 hours on a road trip and see just how much you enjoy the experience. And a guitar amp is intended for musical production, not REproduction.

There's a common metric in manufacturing comparing first pass yield versus second pass yield. First pass is your raw material and what percentage of that is actually in your finished product. The first pass product that ends up being trashed becomes your second pass. The second pass is stuff that is regurgitated back through (in manufacturing, it's simply to recover your losses in an effort to not lose money)..

Live music, the recording itself is your first pass in the distortion chain. ideally as much of this contributes to the finished product as much as possible. It's your clean, raw material. Any of your first pass that's "distorted" by the process becomes scrap which is 2nd pass once you introduce it into the process again.

The second pass is the distortion your equipment produces. The "scrap" in the finished product. Ideally kept to an absolute minimum. Scrap from the first pass is still scrap regardless and it ****s up the finished product. Garbage in, garbage out.

Whatever trash is in the second pass, one may not be as severe as the other. Having dirt in the product may not feel as much as sin as having sulfuric acid in there. Just like whether in "amplifier sonics" is "more pleasing, 2nd order distortion" versus high order harmonics, you'd still be better off having neither one corrupting the finished product.


----------



## chipss

agreed for sure, 

usaly two camps, clean as a whistle to some is sterile to others.
Warm to some is an unacceptable distortion to others. 


Seas/ morel
Ebony/soul

Or I could be full of it,

But this same thing plays out over and over in audio 

Ultra Clean mics or the lowly sure sm58 whole records have been cut with both types. mic preamps in another area same thing two camps, the mix down boards, same thing, compressors, all the way back to the musical instruments them selves. Guitar pick ups ….drum shells the list goes on and on.

I don’t think either camp is right or wrong, I just know what I like, a little warmth ..second order flavor, in my car it makes it fun to listen to, at the mixing/master board, clean clean clean is good, but not a sound I want in my car….


----------



## MarkZ

Yeah, I can appreciate where you're coming from.


----------



## Dangerranger

chipss said:


> agreed for sure,
> 
> usaly two camps, clean as a whistle to some is sterile to others.
> Warm to some is an unacceptable distortion to others.
> 
> 
> Seas/ morel
> Ebony/soul
> 
> Or I could be full of it,
> 
> But this same thing plays out over and over in audio


Very true. I don't know that I'd call a Morel driver "warm" in the sense of 2nd order distortion warm as much as I'd just call it a driver with a ****load of distortion in general. I've seen $10 woofers that have lower 4th and 5th order distortion than their most common stuff on the market




chipss said:


> I don’t think either camp is right or wrong, I just know what I like, a little warmth ..second order flavor, in my car it makes it fun to listen to, at the mixing/master board, clean clean clean is good, but not a sound I want in my car….


True. It's a never ending debate between the crowd of metal vs paper/poly cones and such..a broad, large increase in even order harmonic distortion in the lower midrange and bass or sharper but narrow band odd order harmonic distortion in the upper treble? It's one of the few places subjectivity has a solid place. Measurements tell the truth about a driver but they won't tell you what you like. 

But realistically I see that one as a type of distortion thing moreso than a TOTAL distortion kind of thing. If you compared two similar "warm" drivers that have mostly even order distortion, most people would still prefer the one with less distortion overall. 

A Revelator and a Mag Cone Excel driver are very similar in terms of overall distortion, the excel being a good bit cleaner on low end where above 500-600hz or so the revelator is a bit cleaner and has more even order distortion versus the Excels rise in 3rd and 5th order distortion...I'd still say they'd be preferred over drivers with similar characteristics but more overall distortion.


----------



## The Baron Groog

89grand said:


> God I get sick of arguing non-sense.
> 
> My point was that I bet you couldn't pick the Pioneers over say JBL if they were both tuned to a particular system. You can't just get in any car and name the speakers by listening to them.


Then stop talking it! 

So you're now say that any speaker can be "tuned" to sound the same? So we're now all wasting our money on high end speakers when we could just "tune" some sh!t ones? lol


----------



## chipss

Dangerranger said:


> Very true. I don't know that I'd call a Morel driver "warm" in the sense of 2nd order distortion warm as much as I'd just call it a driver with a ****load of distortion in general. I've seen $10 woofers that have lower 4th and 5th order distortion than their most common stuff on the market
> 
> 
> _killer post, care to name a few lower distortion woofers of the 10" flavor?
> my views I know are slanted, I worked on distortion tuning, a great deal, tube amps for guitar and 9 volt distortion boxes that do nothing but make distortion, its not as easy as one would think to get a err nice sounding pleasing distortion...
> _
> True. It's a never ending debate between the crowd of metal vs paper/poly cones and such..a broad, large increase in even order harmonic distortion in the lower midrange and bass or sharper but narrow band odd order harmonic distortion in the upper treble? It's one of the few places subjectivity has a solid place. Measurements tell the truth about a driver but they won't tell you what you like.
> 
> But realistically I see that one as a type of distortion thing moreso than a TOTAL distortion kind of thing. If you compared two similar "warm" drivers that have mostly even order distortion, most people would still prefer the one with less distortion overall.
> 
> _now this is truly intersting to me, and somthing I did not know, this is somthing you have found more times than not? take the whole morel crowd ?
> in a blind test does this still ring true? _
> 
> A Revelator and a Mag Cone Excel driver are very similar in terms of overall distortion, the excel being a good bit cleaner on low end where above 500-600hz or so the revelator is a bit cleaner and has more even order distortion versus the Excels rise in 3rd and 5th order distortion...I'd still say they'd be preferred over drivers with similar characteristics but more overall distortion.


_two drivers some day I will own for sure, my first upgrade will be the L6 due to finding a great used price on them, and liking the specs on the driver, 

kind of blowing my idea out of the water, I would think 3rd and 5th order to be clearly worse to the ear, being a tone not related to the fundamental, just like playing or singing a song out of key…. yet have read of a few choosing the seas over the rev, stating it had more punch...
so many other things are happening with speakers as well, its qts, its x max, on off axis, and car it self and the install, speakers are for sure a sonic signature item, and I still for sure don’t understand it all at this point._Still I wish there was a speaker exchange…lol try buy sell I suppose…


----------



## MarkZ

The Baron Groog said:


> Then stop talking it!
> 
> So you're now say that any speaker can be "tuned" to sound the same? So we're now all wasting our money on high end speakers when we could just "tune" some sh!t ones? lol


This is funny. When Andy said practically the same thing last week, nobody called him on it. When 89grand says it, everybody crawls up his ass. :laugh:


----------



## chipss

mark 
did you miss the post that said this whole week was crawl up 89grand's ass week?

muhahaha j/k


----------



## The Baron Groog

MarkZ said:


> This is funny. When Andy said practically the same thing last week, nobody called him on it. When 89grand says it, everybody crawls up his ass. :laugh:





chipss said:


> mark
> did you miss the post that said this whole week was crawl up 89grand's ass week?
> 
> muhahaha j/k


I hope crawling up someones ass means something else in the states


----------



## MarkZ

Hahaha I forgot DIYMA was international. Do you guys have something like, "bust his bollocks"?


----------



## chipss

was going to say its like "giving him a hard time", but in this case that sounds all wrong as well ......muhahaha


----------



## 89grand

The Baron Groog said:


> Then stop talking it!
> 
> So you're now say that any speaker can be "tuned" to sound the same? So we're now all wasting our money on high end speakers when we could just "tune" some sh!t ones? lol


I'm not even necessarily saying that either, but they could be tuned so that you didn't know what speaker you were listening to.

Like I said earlier, maybe on a sound board you could pick out a certain speaker, but not in a car once it was tuned.

Some of you here and making the case that the gear is the number one factor, and it's not. It's the install and tuning.

We've all heard good sounding systems, and they were made up of a variety of different gear. Those cars sounded good because of the install and the tuning, and very little because of the amps and speakers.


----------



## chipss

for the record, I feel it is the sum of many things, and admit some of it I dont understand...lol


----------



## The Baron Groog

MarkZ said:


> Hahaha I forgot DIYMA was international. Do you guys have something like, "bust his bollocks"?


lol-not quite but close enough-we'd use the American term "busting his balls"-what you've come up with sounds like an American script writer trying to write an Englishman's part ! (no offense):laugh:

"crawling up someones ass" would be the opposite-"sucking up" "brown nosing"


----------



## MarkZ

Weird. So in the UK, people _like_ it when someone crawls up their ass?


----------



## Dangerranger

chipss said:


> killer post, care to name a few lower distortion woofers of the 10" flavor?
> my views I know are slanted, I worked on distortion tuning, a great deal, tube amps for guitar and 9 volt distortion boxes that do nothing but make distortion, its not as easy as one would think to get a err nice sounding pleasing distortion...


Woofers or midbasses? Midbass wise if I went 10" I'd go pro audio such as B&C, they have a lot of really nice drivers in that range. Highly efficient, great motors with plenty of linear excursion, low distortion and the distortion is "pleasing" in the sense of even order harmonics which seems to be what you prefer.



chipss said:


> now this is truly intersting to me, and somthing I did not know, this is somthing you have found more times than not? take the whole morel crowd ?
> in a blind test does this still ring true?


I suppose that depends on what the end user's criteria may be. A blind test isn't as useful when you're dealing with something subjective such as that IMO, aka what they "like". Just as people in a soundroom tend to not pick what will in the LONG TERM be a pleasing sound, the ears tend to deceive and they usually initially pick what is loudest or what has a "different" sound. Good IASCA competitors know this and cater to the reference material. Bose sells speakers on the same principles, set up a dedicated sound booth and play tracks/videos that cater to their speaker's abilities in order to sell more speakers. They may make garbage equipment but the marketing effort is there.

I'd really say that, in the long term, if one were to listen to reference material for a timeframe similar to what they'd experience in the real world, they'd 9 times out of 10 pick the lower distortion driver. 

Objectively, if you look at the claims of the Dyn/Morel crowd, it makes perfect sense objectively. Many herald them as the "midbass kings" where really they're far from it. They have poor linear output. They're not efficient. They're not even anything approaching clean in that region. But having a LOT of harmonic distortion means it sounds like more bass than it is. More bass via harmonics is not better bass. 



chipss said:


> kind of blowing my idea out of the water, I would think 3rd and 5th order to be clearly worse to the ear, being a tone not related to the fundamental, just like playing or singing a song out of key…. yet have read of a few choosing the seas over the rev, stating it had more punch...


Well really the 3rd and 5th order distortion of the SEAS is not by any means bad in it's intended range. It's very low distortion, it's just that the distortion that IS there tends to be more biased to odd order. The Excel is a lot cleaner than most metal or kevlar cone drivers, such as their L18 model in the prestige lineup.

I tend to prefer the Excel over the Revelator. Mostly because of bass performance. Where sure, the Excel isn't as clean as the Rev above 500-600hz, it's still very good and below 500-600hz it's cleaner than the Revelator. And bass is where most of your distortion is and is the hardest thing to get "right" as few speakers can perform like a piston in that region and I feel that the very slightly higher distortion in the upper midrange is a very fair tradeoff, as volume goes up and excursion increases, it's the midbass that will suffer most where the midrange doesn't require a lot of excursion or linearity to begin with. most 7" drivers without severe issues still have very low distortion in that region where low midrange and midbass a lot of drivers struggle, especially as volume level increases and more demand is placed on the driver in general.


----------



## The Baron Groog

MarkZ said:


> Weird. So in the UK, people _like_ it when someone crawls up their ass?


Depends who's doing the crawling


----------



## The Baron Groog

89grand said:


> I'm not even necessarily saying that either, but they could be tuned so that you didn't know what speaker you were listening to.
> 
> Like I said earlier, maybe on a sound board you could pick out a certain speaker, but not in a car once it was tuned.
> 
> Some of you here and making the case that the gear is the number one factor, and it's not. It's the install and tuning.
> 
> We've all heard good sounding systems, and they were made up of a variety of different gear. Those cars sounded good because of the install and the tuning, and very little because of the amps and speakers.


Would depend on the speaker-you can't polish a turd! Also no reason why mixing and matching products shouldn't work. As Candisa said if you want a warm amp buy Audison, neutral buy Genesis Bright speakers buy Jap, smoother Euro and so on...



chipss said:


> for the record, I feel it is the sum of many things, and admit some of it I dont understand...lol


As above you need to start with some decent equipment-either stuff you've auditioned (preferably) or feel comfortable of the specs/reputation.

I agree installation is key to a good sound-but if you could build a competition SQ car with Sony XS-GT drivers (assuming they're the same pile as the XS-F drivers are over here and a quick example) why isn't everyone using the $40 drivers, budget amps and a Bit1/MS-8 etc to build champ SQ systems? Back to my answer above-you can't polish a turd!


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## MarkZ

The Baron Groog said:


> I agree installation is key to a good sound-but if you could build a competition SQ car with Sony XS-GT drivers (assuming they're the same pile as the XS-F drivers are over here and a quick example) why isn't everyone using the $40 drivers, budget amps and a Bit1/MS-8 etc to build champ SQ systems? Back to my answer above-you can't polish a turd!


Some people are doing exactly that.


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## Candisa

The Baron Groog said:


> Would depend on the speaker-you can't polish a turd! Also no reason why mixing and matching products shouldn't work. As Candisa said if you want a warm amp buy Audison, neutral buy Genesis Bright speakers buy Jap, smoother Euro and so on...
> 
> As above you need to start with some decent equipment-either stuff you've auditioned (preferably) or feel comfortable of the specs/reputation.


Exactly my point.
Why in earth would somebody pick a combination of materials that sounds super smooth and rather warm and then tune it to sound very studio-like?

I don't care if all amps sound the same or not in a lab, eq'ed to have exactly the same frequency response and everything. A car amplifier is made to use in a mobile audio install, in a car, and in that situation, you WILL hear a serious difference in sound if you replace f.e. Genesis Series 3 amps by f.e. Audison VRx amps.
Can you make that install with the Audison amps sound exactly the same as with the Genesis amps?
Maybe, with a LOT of work, but why would you do that?
If you like the sound with Genesis amps, then just use Genesis amps...

A different, but very related example:
I own a pair of TangBand W4-1337 fullrange speakers. Now Xenia needed something similar, but she tought about giving the bamboo coned W4-1320's a try.
We compared those drivers with eachother. Not in a lab or something, just connected a W4-1337 to the left channel of my Technics home-audio amp (which has a very neatral sound, so very comparable to my Genesis amps and the McIntosh amps Xenia was planning to use back then) and a W4-1320 to the right channel, played some music with the "mono" button of the amp enabled.
Nothing very scientific or lab-like, but very easy to compare by simply turning the balance knob of the amp...

Apparently, the bamboo-coned W4-1320's sounded too smooth, too ambient and not detailed enough to the both of us.
Could the bamboo-coned W4-1320's be tuned to sound exactly the same as the titanium coned W4-1337's? I highly doubt it, but I won't say it's impossible...
But why the hell would we do such a thing?
Instead of tuning the hell out of them, we just traded them in for another couple of titanium-coned W4-1337's.

I've heard several installs that sounded awful in the beginning (because of bad mixing and matching of the gear), but then was tuned to sound good...
Well, I haven't heard a single one of that kind of installs that actually sounded natural!
I feel the sound of an install where there was enough research and time spent on mixing and matching to be a LOT more natural than the sound of an install where all that time (or even some more) was spent on processing the hell out of it.

Isabelle


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## MarkZ

Candisa said:


> Exactly my point.
> Why in earth would somebody pick a combination of materials that sounds super smooth and rather warm and then tune it to sound very studio-like?
> 
> I don't care if all amps sound the same or not in a lab, eq'ed to have exactly the same frequency response and everything. A car amplifier is made to use in a mobile audio install, in a car, and in that situation, you WILL hear a serious difference in sound if you replace f.e. Genesis Series 3 amps by f.e. Audison VRx amps.
> Can you make that install with the Audison amps sound exactly the same as with the Genesis amps?
> Maybe, with a LOT of work, but why would you do that?
> If you like the sound with Genesis amps, then just use Genesis amps...


One reason why someone might try to make one piece of equipment sound "like" another piece of equipment is because they can't afford to buy that other piece of equipment. If I can get a $10 speaker to sound indistinguishable in my install from a $1000 speaker, you better believe I'm gonna do it. 



> I've heard several installs that sounded awful in the beginning (because of bad mixing and matching of the gear), but then was tuned to sound good...
> Well, I haven't heard a single one of that kind of installs that actually sounded natural!
> I feel the sound of an install where there was enough research and time spent on mixing and matching to be a LOT more natural than the sound of an install where all that time (or even some more) was spent on processing the hell out of it.


What does "natural" mean?


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## 89grand

I'm just glad my ears are obviously jacked up (although I never realized before now that they were), so I don't have to try 7 amps before I find the right one that works with the 15th speaker I installed that I finally accepted that met my standards. I can take any known decent speaker and any known decent amp and make the system sound good to me and I don't have to buy $1000 amps and $700 speakers.

I agree with Mark, as I have more time than money, I'll go the cheaper route too when possible.


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## Candisa

MarkZ said:


> One reason why someone might try to make one piece of equipment sound "like" another piece of equipment is because they can't afford to buy that other piece of equipment. If I can get a $10 speaker to sound indistinguishable in my install from a $1000 speaker, you better believe I'm gonna do it.


But if there's a $13 speaker out there that sounds already a LOT better before tuning, will you still tune the hell out of that $10 speaker, or just go with the $13 ones?


MarkZ said:


> What does "natural" mean?


Well, that's already hard to explain in my own language, but I'll give it a try...
When I say "natural sound" I mean that the sound give all the information of the music there is, without sounding flat, thin or pushed too hard.

When somebody tries to make an awful sounding system sound great by "tuning in" some warmth or detail, it always sounds... well, wrong.

Isabelle


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## Dangerranger

Candisa said:


> I don't care if all amps sound the same or not in a lab, eq'ed to have exactly the same frequency response and everything. A car amplifier is made to use in a mobile audio install, in a car, and in that situation, you WILL hear a serious difference in sound if you replace f.e. Genesis Series 3 amps by f.e. Audison VRx amps.
> Can you make that install with the Audison amps sound exactly the same as with the Genesis amps?
> Maybe, with a LOT of work, but why would you do that?
> If you like the sound with Genesis amps, then just use Genesis amps...


The only real differences between both of those amplifiers is that the Genesis amps are completely unregulated where the Audisons are very tightly regulated with one of the most sophisticated PWM chip and IC setups I've seen for car amps. The power is consistent on supply voltage, where the Genesis being unregulated will vary greatly and the capacitors aren't particularly robust. The Dual Mono varies as much as 45W per channel comparing 12V versus 14.4V. It makes a hell of a difference even when you're comparing the amplifier to itself, really depends on the car's charging system. But that's not the fault of amplifier sonics, it's just the result of the design decision. We all know that power makes a difference but it would be a problem regardless of whether you were comparing the amps or simply trying to make the best of the Genesis whether it were being compared or attempting to idealize it.. But honestly I think a fully unregulated amplifier in the vehicle environment is a poor design decision to begin with considering the vehicle's charging system. As I said before, there are few innovators in terms of amplifier design in car audio, that actually cater to the conditions particularly well. Most are adapted home audio types of designs because those principles are what sell to self proclaimed audiophiles, not necessarily what actually works well in a vehicle. Manufacturers after god knows how many years are finally stepping up to the plate with something that makes perfect sense in a car: full range class D and other PWM controlled designs, both from a packaging, efficiency, and requirement standpoint in the vehicle environment. The technology has been around for years.

The other aspect of the Genesis amps vs the Audison is a lack of output inductors. Capacitive loads will cause it to oscillate like crazy because of no inductor to isolate them from the output or the feedback loop. With most drivers it'll do fine, but something like an electrostat or ribbon or piezo tweeter would be a no-no.


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## chipss

What about a unregulated power supply’s effect on the efficiency of car amps? Vs. a tightly regulated power supply? 

Then the amp efficiencies effect on the cars charging system?

I think there are trade offs both ways…


Again I must give my tube amp tainted ramblings, power supply sag in guitar amps tend to give a warm sound, I have built a few with selectable switched diode/tube rectifiers and there is a difference. 
Does this have anything to do with car amps? I don’t know but it does make me wonder….


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## Dangerranger

chipss said:


> What about a unregulated power supply’s effect on the efficiency of car amps? Vs. a tightly regulated power supply?


As linear power supplies are increasingly rare (for good reason), modern switched mode power supplies are generally a good bit more efficient and due to their nature they're always regulated. They allow you to get away with smaller transformers and don't require a large mains transformer as a linear supply or fully unregulated supply does. They also run a LOT cooler and require less heatsinking.

Realistically most of the efficiency of an amp is determined by the nature of the output devices though, as most of even A/B designs for car audio rely on regulated power supplies (and are still inefficient) as they're already having to use a PWM and IC chip feeding a bank of MOSFETs to convert DC to AC to begin with. Unregulated supplies are usually either for cost savings or tradition. Most home designs use unregulated supplies, but the home doesn't offer supply voltage that's varying all over the place either. The main advantage of unregulated is when the supply runs at a lower frequency and you have a lot more capacitance due to that (because it's necessary), which tends to give a bit more headroom for extreme transients. but if your power supply doesn't operate at a low frequency (like 60hz: common for most homes) the advantages of unregulated just became negated.



chipss said:


> Then the amp efficiencies effect on the cars charging system?


A/B amps are pretty bad efficiency wise. The more one tries to get it to perform more like a class A output stage, the less efficient it gets. You might get 60-65% efficiency out of an A/B amplifier at max output, with it being in the 30-35% range at 1/3 power. Modern Class D designs are over 90% efficient, with them also being very efficient at lower power levels. They're substantially less taxing on the charging system.




chipss said:


> Again I must give my tube amp tainted ramblings, power supply sag in guitar amps tend to give a warm sound, I have built a few with selectable switched diode/tube rectifiers and there is a difference.
> 
> Does this have anything to do with car amps? I don’t know but it does make me wonder….


I suppose it could if that were desired from a design standpoint but I haven't seen any that have tried it in anything other than guitar amplifiers. There are plenty of circuitry designs attempting to replicated the sound of vintage amps with saggy power supplies, where older amps had 20% sag most modern amps are more like 2%. Adding solid state or tube rectifiers tend to yield sag rates of anywhere from 5% and 15%.

I see why people prefer sag, as from a musicians standpoint it does give a lot of flexibility such as if you're playing guitar. With lots of Sag, strumming your guitar lightly will still produce a clean tone; while hammering on it would cause a lot of harmonic distortion and modify/articulate the sound in a way that can be very desirable to get a certain sound. 

That said, I don't see much use for it in a reproduction. Just because of the nature of recorded music nowadays. Where with a guitar you control the dynamics and there's plenty of potential in terms of dynamic range, with music nowadays recordings are so compressed that you'd be overdriving the crap out of the amp very often. Think of it like when you're watching your favorite TV show, volume up and you're getting into it, then it goes to a Shamwow infomercial and it sounds like the speaker cones are about to blow out of the TV screen at the same volume setting. That's how bad compression in recordings has gotten these days. Your guitar is the TV show, compressed recorded music is the Shamwow commercial of the world. It's one thing to have that much distortion on one musical instrument to get a certain sound out of it, and another when it's screwing up every aspect of a recording and Norah Jones' voice in the process.


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## 86mr2

chipss said:


> Again I must give my tube amp tainted ramblings, power supply sag in guitar amps tend to give a warm sound, I have built a few with selectable switched diode/tube rectifiers and there is a difference.
> Does this have anything to do with car amps? I don’t know but it does make me wonder….


It is so hard/impossible to compare the lovely sound of power tubes clipping to the clipping behaviour of any sort of semiconductor. Consider even the difference in character in an all-tube guitar amp between clipping the input tubes vs clipping the outputs. Or, as you have pointed out, the differences between tube amp topologies. The fact that the higher order harmonics are attenuated by the output transformer and the big, old, cardboard-coned woofers also makes the comparison not apples to oranges, but flowers to pine cones.

In semi-conductor amps, warmth - if it exists, will be destroyed by sagging supply rails. Any efforts that have been made to "soften" the clipping behaviour in the amp will simply be overwhelmed by the odd-order harmonics thrown out by the increasingly sharp shoulders of the waveform. Then we pass the resulting hash through generally low inductance, relatively undamped and small cones. Even better, the most undamped cones have breakup modes that will actually emphasize the higher order harmonics.

Where does this all get us? Right back to your point about voicing distortion in guitar amps. I think this principle may be involved with psychoacoustics in these interminable threads about certain amps being "suited" to certain speakers. 

Given that we are always clipping our car amps, people may sometimes find a "system" of amp and speaker that have a set of distortion characteristics they find pleasing. 

The battle starts when people try to take the one or two cases they have found and draw broad conclusions regarding the brand of amp that should be paired with a particular brand of speakers. Or that they can hear the differences between inaudible levels of rated distortion when actually the differences they are hearing are in the system response to fairly high levels of distortion from clipped outputs.

This makes my head hurt. Anyway, my guitar amp preferences are dumb old Marshall heads through four or eight big, dumb cardboard-coned twelves.


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## Dangerranger

86mr2 said:


> Given that we are always clipping our car amps, people may sometimes find a "system" of amp and speaker that have a set of distortion characteristics they find pleasing.


Which doesn't bother me to hear someone say when the acknowledge that this is what they're hearing, or that they chose an amplifier due to this. what bothers me is the claims of "x" amplifier being warmer than "y" amplifier inherently due to some x factor sonic signature that they feel can't be measured or predicted prior to and get into audiophile subjective power words like "veils have been lifted" and "pace rhythm and timing" nonsense. Granted, few amplifier objective tests show the nature of an amplifier clipping, but it's understandable why they wouldn't. I doubt many manufacturers would want such a thing posted in a review.



86mr2 said:


> The battle starts when people try to take the one or two cases they have found and draw broad conclusions regarding the brand of amp that should be paired with a particular brand of speakers. Or that they can hear the differences between inaudible levels of rated distortion when actually the differences they are hearing are in the system response to fairly high levels of distortion from clipped outputs.


Very well put.


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## Guy

So... Some of us agree, not all amps sound the same in real world use.
Good job bringing both camps together, Dangerranger!


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## chipss

great post, and insight...

paper speakers are just plain had to beat, but I must say voicing a guitar tube amp is much more than just using old gear, some people go to great lengths voicing there x-formers, and speakers, Ted Weber spent most of his life on guitar tube amp speakers, mercury is doing the same with x-formers...and there are the legends, like Howard Dumble.

how ever guitar distortion boxes are doing pretty much the same thing, voicing distortion, and using silicon , there are differences in the way these clip based on many things, were clipping diodes are placed , what type of diodes are used, buffered in outs, of not, the list goes on and on, it’s a never ending quest for tone, that is pleasing. I have etched more than a few boards that went right in the trash, and a few that I am very proud of…

it may be true no one intends to design a car amp voiced at clipping levels, much in the same way Leo fenders guitar amps were never designed to run on 10 and a tube screamer pushing it well over the top, but being humans and doing what humans do, someone started cranking it up….well out of design specs. 

I tend to think human nature has a way of repeating itself…

still think softer clipping amps people find pleasing and warm, at clipping levels, weather they know they are clipping the amp or not, few set gains correctly. And I would venture to say more do it wrong than right….

In my mind I find these things linked together, but again my views are tainted in chip-world, not only with glass but silicon …..







86mr2 said:


> It is so hard/impossible to compare the lovely sound of power tubes clipping to the clipping behaviour of any sort of semiconductor. Consider even the difference in character in an all-tube guitar amp between clipping the input tubes vs clipping the outputs. Or, as you have pointed out, the differences between tube amp topologies. The fact that the higher order harmonics are attenuated by the output transformer and the big, old, cardboard-coned woofers also makes the comparison not apples to oranges, but flowers to pine cones.
> 
> In semi-conductor amps, warmth - if it exists, will be destroyed by sagging supply rails. Any efforts that have been made to "soften" the clipping behaviour in the amp will simply be overwhelmed by the odd-order harmonics thrown out by the increasingly sharp shoulders of the waveform. Then we pass the resulting hash through generally low inductance, relatively undamped and small cones. Even better, the most undamped cones have breakup modes that will actually emphasize the higher order harmonics.
> 
> Where does this all get us? Right back to your point about voicing distortion in guitar amps. I think this principle may be involved with psychoacoustics in these interminable threads about certain amps being "suited" to certain speakers.
> 
> Given that we are always clipping our car amps, people may sometimes find a "system" of amp and speaker that have a set of distortion characteristics they find pleasing.
> 
> The battle starts when people try to take the one or two cases they have found and draw broad conclusions regarding the brand of amp that should be paired with a particular brand of speakers. Or that they can hear the differences between inaudible levels of rated distortion when actually the differences they are hearing are in the system response to fairly high levels of distortion from clipped outputs.
> 
> This makes my head hurt. Anyway, my guitar amp preferences are dumb old Marshall heads through four or eight big, dumb cardboard-coned twelves.


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## Dangerranger

Guy said:


> So... Some of us agree, not all amps sound the same in real world use.
> Good job bringing both camps together, Dangerranger!




I'm of the camp that says if the amplifier is pushed to the point that it doesn't sound as it should or it clips like crazy, don't blame the amp unless it is faulty. Blame and fix the conditions. it's no different than blaming a good performing set of speakers due to the car's crappy acoustic environment. Quit throwing money at the problem, or at least spend money on the right things and fix the real problem and be done with it.

If the conditions are crappy, fix the conditions. If the "differences" are caused by a plethora of variables, the logical solution isn't to cater to those variables, the first step is to eliminate or minimize as many variables as you can. If your charging system fluctuates terribly or doesn't provide sufficient current at all levels, then don't blame the amp. Do what it takes to make sure it gets necessary power. High output alternators aren't that expensive. Transistorized voltage regulators are getting better and better at regulating for a car's charging system. If you're going for big power, don't blame the amplifier when you made the decision to go with an amp that peaks out at 60% efficiency when you could have gone class D and had much less current draw. If it's still that damn bad then consider getting more efficient speakers.


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## audiocollector24

try the damping down for a cheap fix, then if that doesnt work like others have mentioned you could buy a cheap good eq and melow the sound. good luck bud


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## 89grand

audiocollector24 said:


> go online and talk to patrick at robot underground, he will be able to help you reconfigure your crossovers to tune down the harshness for cheap. you could change the tweeter section to 8 ohm and it will lighten the load. tell him ryan the tube amp guy sent you


I hope that is a joke, because Fatrick (yes, I ****ing spelled it right) is a joke on this site.:laugh:


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## chipss

oh my, op stay well clear of RU, 

every body stand back another new guy talking about fatrick....just like a a mathematical constant



audiocollector24 said:


> go online and talk to patrick at robot underground, he will be able to help you reconfigure your crossovers to tune down the harshness for cheap. you could change the tweeter section to to lighten the load. tell him the tube amp guy sent you


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## ChrisB

audiocollector24 said:


> go online and talk to patrick at robot underground, he will be able to help you reconfigure your crossovers to tune down the harshness for cheap. you could change the tweeter section to to lighten the load. tell him the tube amp guy sent you


The last thing I would recommend is taking system advice from someone who stated that a 1 ohm amplifier would make the same amount of power at 2 ohms if one just turned the gain up higher in their subwoofer advertisements.


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## DasBot

You can go several different ways but if you're stuck / want to use those tweeters, I'd get a pair of stereo 8 ohm L-pads from MCM or Parts Express. Just get the 15W because you'll be wiring each stereo pad in parallel to work as a 4 ohm Lpad. You don't have to use two, but I like to so that I can adjust each tweeter individually. (Lots of factors for this.) Yes you can buy 4 ohm Lpads but they're really big and more expensive than doing it this way.. Potaytoh, Pohtahtoe.

You can keep the L-Pads in line and adjust or once you have it wired where you want the level. Remove the Lpad out of circuit and measure both the series and parallel resistance. This will give you the resistor values you'll need to put in the tweeter circuit. 

When you just pad the tweeter, this changes the whole circuit and moves your crossover point. It's crude but effective. The Lpad process I describe is the proper way to do it. You can read more about the process in The LoudSpeaker Cookbook as well as other good works from Audio Xpress like SpeakerBuilder Magaine.. My fave.


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