# surrond speakers



## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

how important does it matter that these match the center and the fronts for the HT?

I ask because, Ive finally decided I'm going to do a MTM w/ SS 18 rev and SS 6600 ported for the fronts and MTM w/ a SS 6600 and SS 15w sealed for the centers. I honestly dont fell like spending a grand on some SSs surrounds that will only be on when watchign TV, movies, video games ect.
I was thinking of just using the peerless 3" full range w/ the aura NS mini tweet in a dipole set up...

thoughts???


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## Abaddon (Aug 28, 2007)

I personally feel that your rears should be as small as possible... they don't need to make any real bass.. and they are just there for that odd little "thing" that happens in the background. They aren't involved in the SQ battle either.

I feel you will be very happy with what you are thinking about.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

^ that's pretty much what I've gathered. That the surrounds are there for the effects but not as important as your l/r/c speakers.

OT...I'm jealous of your current setup. I take it that you've decided not to sell those drivers?


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> ^ that's pretty much what I've gathered. That the surrounds are there for the effects but not as important as your l/r/c speakers.
> 
> OT...I'm jealous of your current setup. I take it that you've decided not to sell those drivers?


No one wanted them for those killer prices...so now they are going into this set up.

Time to find a killer three channel amp


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

bdubs767 said:


> Time to find a killer three channel amp


Let me save you the trouble and learn from my weeks of wasted time. Buy a 5.1 and call it a day. lol


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> Let me save you the trouble and learn from my weeks of wasted time. Buy a 5.1 and call it a day. lol


I have a Denon 2808ci receiver...I want to beef up the fronts with an amp.

Scans deserve real power, not receiver power


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## Abaddon (Aug 28, 2007)

bdubs767 said:


> I have a Denon 2808ci receiver...I want to beef up the fronts with an amp.
> 
> Scans deserve real power, not receiver power


I agree. Plus it will look a LOT cooler with more pieces of equipment on the rack.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Abaddon said:


> Plus it will look a LOT cooler with more pieces of equipment on the rack.


Truly made me lol.


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## Ultimateherts (Nov 13, 2006)

The rear surrounds make much more of a difference then you might think! Look at it this way, no manfacturer that sells a HTIB sells the fronts and rears in different sizes. They all match for a reason. Also, when or if you decide to do 6.1 or HD-dvd/ Blu-ray lossless 7.1 your be able to here the difference!


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## kappa546 (Apr 11, 2005)

there will be little to no benefit with dipole surrounds, plus they would have be well behind you in the room so they're relatively on axis (see dipole radiation). otherwise i think it's a wise plan... zaph already has a design for aura ns3 and dayton nd20.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

Ultimateherts said:


> The rear surrounds make much more of a difference then you might think! Look at it this way, no manfacturer that sells a HTIB sells the fronts and rears in different sizes. They all match for a reason. Also, when or if you decide to do 6.1 or HD-dvd/ Blu-ray lossless 7.1 your be able to here the difference!



so are you saying spending $2000 on SS surrounds and rears are worth it?


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

Is it a problem having 5 1/4" woofers for the center and 6 1/2" drivers for the center???


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

Main thing is, to find drivers with similar tonality. They don't need to match exactly, and MANY manufacturers don't make all matching speakers.

As to whether or not to do dipole, it depends on the rear speaker locations. If you cannot located the driver far enough behind you, then dipole may be beneficial.


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## Ultimateherts (Nov 13, 2006)

backwoods said:


> Main thing is, to find drivers with similar tonality. They don't need to match exactly, and MANY manufacturers don't make all matching speakers.
> 
> As to whether or not to do dipole, it depends on the rear speaker locations. If you cannot located the driver far enough behind you, then dipole may be beneficial.


All but the center. The fronts and rears almost always use the same size driver. As far as 5.25 or 6.5's I' would say go for what ever your budget allows. In my setup my center has dual 4" drivers, but considering the size of the room it works very well. That is another thing too, in a large room you would benefit with larger drivers. In a small room like my HT room you can get away with smaller driver. Also as far as speaker placement you would want the demensions of the room so thata you can properly place the speaker at the correct angle for surround purposes...

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/s...ome-theater-speaker-layout-an-essential-guide


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## dBassHz (Nov 2, 2005)

Doesn't really answer your questions but this is a very good read on Surround sound speakers: http://users.d-web.com/dbrown/htdesign/htdesign.htm


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## Xander (Mar 20, 2007)

Ultimateherts said:


> ...no manfacturer that sells a HTIB sells the fronts and rears in different sizes. They all match for a reason. Also, when or if you decide to do 6.1 or HD-dvd/ Blu-ray lossless 7.1 your be able to here the difference!


That's not true. Many of the HTiB setups have smaller surrounds. Many have MTMs for LCR and MTs for surrounds. And upgrading to lossless will not make that huge of a difference just because your surrounds match...

But I do think that you could just get some Seas drivers for the surrounds. Zaph has some Seas Excel designs.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

Xander said:


> That's not true. Many of the HTiB setups have smaller surrounds. Many have MTMs for LCR and MTs for surrounds. And upgrading to lossless will not make that huge of a difference just because your surrounds match...
> 
> But I do think that you could just get some Seas drivers for the surrounds. Zaph has some Seas Excel designs.




Seas and Scan speak dont mix well at all...well at least the Revs and Excel two very very different sounds. Cant say which I prefer...love them both.


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

I would not mix scans and seas...

Maybe for a cheaper rear surrounds, go with the usher drivers


Most of your use of surround speakers will be movies/games then it isn't as critical, but similar tonality is good.

The ushers have a little warmer sound like the revs, and not as sterile as the seas...


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## SQKid89 (Feb 22, 2007)

from what i've seen/read/heard/etc, it seems while the rears are not as important as the center or fronts, i do believe in the idea of matching the tonality of all the speakers. If you're a gamer, you'd be surprised how important the rears can be, especially in FPS's.


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## Rbsarve (Aug 26, 2005)

Hmm, just dropped in to do some lines on my evening project. it has now turned into a night project, since I can't bring myself to stop playing this disc.

I slapped together a new pair of surrounds. I actually have matching divers laying around, but I wanted to try something different. I happened to have a pair of 8"drivers that at one time was hand built at the Peerless factory exclusivly for me . They where originally specified to work in a really small box so they are really low Qts, but to a really good work in a 16 litre vented box. I mated these with a pair of Tec Surface MD to bring out a lively top end. 

The general school of thought when doing surronds is to voice match them with the fronts. (Which in Bdubs case means pretty mellow drivers, doubt the ND20's will be a great match from the reviews) this is to be able to do seamless front to rear pans. (as when a plane flies over one)

My thought with these where a little bit different. The 8's are a kin to the 5's I use which also are custom Peerless drivers (for Jjaz) but the "tweeters" are nothing like the modified Scan 9700's I'm useing. 
By going with an 8" i can use it as a Full size in the speaker setup, giving nice low frequency ambience, which is more common than you'd think in movies. (The jump scene in Star Wars IV comes to mind).
The ribbons where chosen because I figured that no-one will buy a pair of them to put into a car and i was curious if they wouldn't be perfect as "ambience-enhancers" on a surround speakers. I want to make them dissapare, which is hard while beeing rather close to the ears. 

I wasn't far off. 

Using the opening sequence to Toy Story 2 (a long time HT demo favorite of mine) i checked that the pan effects where ok. They do suffer somewhat compared to a perfectly matched system, but it is still very good.

Then I clued up the disc I can't stop playing. 

Norah Jones - Live in New Orleans. 

This is just a perfect example of how you should do a music 5.1 recording. Everything is where it ought to be. And everything sounds right. It's like beeing there. I might not leave this sofa ever again. I just have to get a charger for the phone so I can call in food.


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## Rbsarve (Aug 26, 2005)

Ok, I had to leave the sofa and go in and do some work. 

But I remembered you discussed surround amplification. Check out Emotiva. They do seem like real bargains to me.


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

Abaddon said:


> I personally feel that your rears should be as small as possible... they don't need to make any real bass.. and they are just there for that odd little "thing" that happens in the background. They aren't involved in the SQ battle either.
> 
> I feel you will be very happy with what you are thinking about.


Couldn't disagree more. Should be the same speaker if that is at all possible. If not, at least the same company/driver material. Sure, not all movies or music take advantage of surround, but some really do. Lucas ranch and several other major producers use B&W towers all the way around, the same tower including the center channel. Movies like Spider-man 2 & 3 even have a rear sub track built in because of all the action going on in the background. My Flaming Lips DVD audio and Buddy Guy SACDs take MAJOR advantage of rear channels.

Don't skimp on the rears, thank me later. 

Think of it like this, you are watching a movie in space (star wars lets say) and a huge Star Destroyer flys over you on screen. You really want huge sound as it approaches, and barely anything on the flyover or as it leaves the background? Not I.


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

bdubs767 said:


> I have a Denon 2808ci receiver...I want to beef up the fronts with an amp.
> 
> Scans deserve real power, not receiver power


You can bi-amp the fronts with that receiver which will help a bit. Still not amp power, but better than not bi-amping.


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## Ultimateherts (Nov 13, 2006)

no one though is mentioning what I mentioned earlier which is that the placement of the speakers play just as much of a role as the speakers themselves. Would you place the rear surrounds in front of you? Of course not! You really have get the demensions of the room and take the time setting up and placing the speakers at the correct angle in order to get the best out of your equipment.


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

Ultimateherts said:


> no one though is mentioning what I mentioned earlier which is that the placement of the speakers play just as much of a role as the speakers themselves. Would you place the rear surrounds in front of you? Of course not! You really have get the demensions of the room and take the time setting up and placing the speakers at the correct angle in order to get the best out of your equipment.


 
There are many ways around this. Time delay for instance. Dipole designs, and even just changing the elevation of the speaker and adjusting the angle can make.

All you need to do, is have an idea before hand of where the placement will be, then design accordingly. 

It's really not as much of an issue as many HT guys make it out to be. 

I just think so many HT guys are limited in their understanding of total system design, that they don't know how to make up for less then perfect locations...


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