# Need assistance RTAing my system



## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Hey all, been working on learning to tune my system with an rta app on my iphone using a Dayton mic. This is what it looks like so far 




Just wondering if I should be boosting the dips or cutting the frequencies around the dips. Have a little headroom in terms of amp power so if I only need to boost 1 or 2 db I should be ok. Been using the parametric eq on my alpine h800. should I be using the graphic? Main complaint right now is I find my bass too boomy and muddy. So far I've cut 50hz -6db with a Q of 2.0 and it still seems like too much. any suggestions as to what you guys would do would be great thanks! If you need more info on my system/install just ask.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Use "real" software. I can't really read what's going on in that plot.

Download RoomEQ (REW), REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software

Measure left and right side individually using swept sine method instead.

There's more than just a FR plot you need to analyze to get a full picture. Dips can be caused by destructive interference of multiple speakers playing the same range while not being in phase. Those dips will show up if you measure left and right side at the same time, they won't however, represent what you hear.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok I have REW but I just don't have a mic to use with my laptop. Any budget solutions for a half decent mic to use with my laptop?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Can't you use the Dayton mic for the phone?

OmniMic, MiniDSP's UMIK-1, Behringer ECM8000 (this one needs a preamp).

All quite good if you want a "proper" mic.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

In that smartphone app, ain't it possible to fix the scale? Set it between 15-55 instead so you get more resolution... that's the main problem here.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I haven't found any way in the app to fix the scale and the iPhone Dayton mic wont work on my laptop because it's a 4-conductor 3.5mm plug which is specificly for apple products. I guess I'll have to get a mic that'll work on my laptop to rta properly


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

tgotovac said:


> I haven't found any way in the app to fix the scale and the iPhone Dayton mic wont work on my laptop because it's a 4-conductor 3.5mm plug which is specificly for apple products. I guess I'll have to get a mic that'll work on my laptop to rta properly


The 4 conductor is common in a lot of products, not just Apple. Have you actually tried it on your laptop? If it has separate mic/spk jacks, the mic should still work, you just won't get the aux output from it.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Bring 50 back up. Cut as follows:

80hz on a narrow Q cut by 2db

200 on a wide Q ~4 cut by 4-5db This region is making the bass boomy.

800 on a narrow Q = 2 cut by 2-3db

2 khz on a Q = 4, cut 4-5 db

8 khz on a Q = 2, cut 5-6 db

16 khz on Q = 2 cut 2-3 db

Now how does it sound? Interested in your feedback. Get a mike for better measurement and resolution as already suggested.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok ill give that a try today and post back. Thanks!!

As for my laptop I did try the mic on it and it does have separate mic/speaker plugs, but it didn't pick the mic up unless I held it half unplugged. Is there any adapter to make this work? Or maybe I need a new better mic?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

A 20 db resolution on your rta is very coarse to be giving eq setting, that too fairly severe. I probably jumped the gun while dishing out the numbers.

Try the cuts in two steps. In step 1 cut 50% of what I mentioned and if it gets better then try the balance 50%. Cut at 3 instead of 2 khz.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Haha ok sounds good. Ill try it soon and report back. Really hoping this cleans up the mud and gets rid of the boom


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I think I just fixed the scale. It goes in 3db steps now would it be better if I posted up another reading with the better scale ?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Yes please.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok I'll post it up shortly.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> Really hoping this cleans up the mud and gets rid of the boom


It should do more than that.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Also quick question about the Q. I think with my dsp a Q of 5 is the most narrow and a Q of .5 is the widest. So when you said 800hz on a narrow Q = 2 did you mean wide Q? Or narrow which on my dsp would be 4 or 5?


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

-----StarTech MUYHSFMM 3.5mm 4 Pin to 2x3 Pin 3.5mm Headset Splitter Adapter----

Available on amazon. I'd link it but my phones dumb atm. I use one of those and a normal trs extender cable to attach the imm6 to my laptop. Works wonders for me.

And remember spatial averaging is your friend.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Awesome !!! Thanks a lot I've been trying to find something like that so I can use my mic on my laptop. I'll be sure to order it. Also...spatial averaging ? I don't think I've heard that term before


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> Also quick question about the Q. I think with my dsp a Q of 5 is the most narrow and a Q of .5 is the widest. So when you said 800hz on a narrow Q = 2 did you mean wide Q? Or narrow which on my dsp would be 4 or 5?


Fixed it below



sqnut said:


> Bring 50 back up. Cut as follows:
> 
> 80hz on a narrow Q 5 cut by 2db
> 
> ...


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok perfect. I made the changes already sounds better. I'll take another reading and post back


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok so this is what it looks like with better scaling. 3db scale if I'm not mistaken 




Let me know what you think!


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Alright... I give it a shot then, take it with a grain of salt, the plot resolution is still limited.

70Hz -3dB, Q5
125Hz -5dB, perhaps a Q 4-5
250Hz -3dB, Q2-3
1kHz -3dB Q5
6.3kHz -5dB Q4

You got problems at 600-700Hz / 3000Hz / 8000Hz+, which leads me to believe you got issues with female vocals and presence. The lack of highs could result in a more "laid-back/darker" tonality. 

Could be measurement errors from doing both sides in the same measurement.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I do have the tweeters attenuated quite a bit because I was finding them too loud maybe I need to turn them up and just cut the problem frequencies. It could also be because I have them in the dash firing towards the windshield. I'll try what you suggested and report back on how it sounds. Maybe I should take separate left and right readings?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I need some sort of extension for my mic so I can set it up like you do in the last picture and leave the car. I ordered the adapter for my laptop so ill beable to use REW soon


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Measure while seated. It's all about what happens when you're in the seat, right?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

You have to qualify how it sounds when we talk about how it measures. At the end of the day it has to sound right. So some input on whats good what isn't, balance between low / mid / high, anything that jars etc, would help in us giving you better input. Focus on vocals, how real do they sound? Do you hear the change in pitch in vocals or are the vocals at one pitch, i.e. stretched vocals etc. Start listening qualitatively. 

Get your overall response to a rough measured house curve and use that as a base for tuning by ear where you will tweak specific frequencies /areas for things like correct tonality and timbre with great dynamics. So it's a two step process. At the end of the day you will end up with a measured curve that follows the downward slope of the curve you started with but a somewhat bumpy ride wherein you can have swings of +/- 3-4 db swings over any given octave. An overly smooth cure seems to limit dynamics now matter what one does. 



tgotovac said:


> Let me know what you think!


Is this after implementing the suggested cuts? 

Cut 125 a couple db's on Q= 4. The 200-250 range needs to come down a bit more say 2-3db. 500-1 khz is about clarity and presence (are vocals submerged in the sound or do they stand out) of vocals it is also the region that makes the sound thin, tinny, hollow, hornlike, etc. So need some input from you first.

Cut 4 khz by 1-2 db. 7-8 khz is still too hot, like 4-5 db too hot. This will make vocals sound stretched, make the sound grainy and give sibilance. This range also seems to negatively highlight whatever is wrong elsewhere. You can smooth out the edges from this range. You don't want too smooth but you also don't want sharp jagged edges on everything.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok thank you for the input so far. I'll go make the suggested cuts and see how it sounds. So far my biggest complaint is the bass. Like I said i found it was too boomy and too muddy. After I made the first changes you suggested it did sound better so its working so far. I'll make those changes and measure again. In terms of vocals I find they sound pretty good(to me anyways) not really much to complain about there. Some vocals though do sound a little thin almost? Or grainy? It's tough to explain but it's only on some songs


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I need some sort of extension so I don't have to hold my phone up. I need to beable to see the screen so indeed to find and extensions. A basically 3.5mm trs won't work for this will it?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok perfect thanks. That's exactully what I've been trying to find!


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok so this is what the full system looks like
Now 




This is the right side on its own




And the left side on its own




Something looks wrong on the right side


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

gregerst22 said:


> It's interesting how much difference the sound will measure with the mic basically at your ear canals. Certain frequencies get boosted quite a bit.


Yes, ~ 4khz or so the ear canal boosts this range so that you have better intelligibility when you're hearing sound. 3khz+ decays the further it travels. It's almost as if some knew that when designing our ear. When you're in your room and the speakers are 14 feet away, the highs attenuate more than the lower frequencies, so your ear is amplifying those a bit. This range is important for us to comprehend words and a lot of timbre related information. 

It is also the range where our ear is the most sensitive. In a car drivers that produce these frequencies are much closer to us, so little decay. To compound things, this range is prone to tons of reflections in the car. Frequencies prone to reflections make our ears feel that this range is louder than it what you measure. Set a 400 hz, 1 khz and 3 khz to the same level say 80db. Now play the tones one after the other and see which is louder. 

In a car perceived loudness and measured loudness are two different things......


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

This is some great info. I find it strange how different the right and left sides measure in my car. Maybe this is why it's so hard for me to get a flat response or closer to flat


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> Ok so this is what the full system looks like
> Now
> 
> 
> ...


Cut Left @ 80 hz by 2 db
Cut left @ 160 2db raise left @ 160 1 db Reduce fatness while balancing L/R
Cut left @ 200-250 hz by 3 db reduce bloat while balancing L/R
Cut right @ 1.6-3 khz by ~ 2db
Cut L&R @ 5 by 2 db
Cut L&R @ 8 khz by 3 db


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok I've made the changes. Wondering if I should be using the graphic eq or parametric. So far I've been using the parametric


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So this is what the fully system playing looks like now


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> So this is what the fully system playing looks like now


How does it sound now? If we divide the sound into three ranges low / mid / high, do you have a good balance? Or does any one range seem to dominate? Listen with your eyes closed. The sound will start getting better once you learn to pick what's wrong with it. 

Pick any material you are familiar with and go back and forth between hearing it on a 2 ch or a good pair of cans. Go back and forth a few times and listen with your eyes closed. After a few tries you should start to notice that the 2 sounds are different, keep going till you can pick specific things. Do voices and instruments sound different in the car?

My instinct is to use graphic cause that's what I use. Use what you are more comfortable with.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So the mud and boom I was getting before is not more or less gone. it sounds a lot cleaner and clearer to me. Bass seems to sound better now for sure. In terms of highs I'm still finding it a little louder then id like but I can just turn the tweeters down another DB. The songs that were sounding the worst in the mid bass area were John maters belief and vultures. Just over powering and muddy sounding bass. If I had to describe it in one word I would say it sounds fuzzy. Much better now. I still find myself turning my sub down to almost 0 for those songs though.
only thing I wish I had a little more of is impact and distinction on the drums. a little more punch would be nice but i have a feeling that's my mids fault


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

tgotovac said:


> So the mud and boom I was getting before is not more or less gone. it sounds a lot cleaner and clearer to me. Bass seems to sound better now for sure. In terms of highs I'm still finding it a little louder then id like but I can just turn the tweeters down another DB. The songs that were sounding the worst in the mid bass area were John maters belief and vultures. Just over powering and muddy sounding bass. If I had to describe it in one word I would say it sounds fuzzy. Much better now. I still find myself turning my sub down to almost 0 for those songs though.
> only thing I wish I had a little more of is impact and distinction on the drums. a little more punch would be nice but i have a feeling that's my mids fault


"Punch" might be much higher up in frequency than you think. It might be due to the dip around 500-800Hz.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I ordered the cables needed to use my mic with my laptop. I plan on taking more readings using REW to hopefully get more accurate results. I'm not sure how much I trust this iPhone app


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> So the mud and boom I was getting before is not more or less gone. it sounds a lot cleaner and clearer to me. Bass seems to sound better now for sure. In terms of highs I'm still finding it a little louder then id like but I can just turn the tweeters down another DB. The songs that were sounding the worst in the mid bass area were John maters belief and vultures. Just over powering and muddy sounding bass. If I had to describe it in one word I would say it sounds fuzzy. Much better now. I still find myself turning my sub down to almost 0 for those songs though.
> only thing I wish I had a little more of is impact and distinction on the drums. a little more punch would be nice but i have a feeling that's my mids fault


I will normally attenuate the tweeters by -5/6 db from the mids. More than that makes the sound dark and less than that makes the sound sharp and brittle. 

Is a drum attack a snap or a thud? Does a piano note sound full and do you get a sense of its harmonics or is it a touch thin / dull? Do you get a sense of snap and attack here or is that lacking a bit? 

Like Han pointed out try raising the 500-800 by like 1db for better clarity, be careful to avoid a horn like sound. 600 hz is very important for snap on a drum. Use a graphic eq in this range. Raise 1khz by 1 db for more dynamics. Cut at 2 khz on a Q = 1 by 2-3db to reduce the bite in the sound. IIRC we had cut some at 16khz, bring that up a bit.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I the tweeters down 5db right now. The drum sounds more like a snap then a thud. It sounds like I'm missing the low end of the drum. the highs seem a tad brittle too though. Also piano seems to sound a little dull


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> I the tweeters down 5db right now. The drum sounds more like a snap then a thud. It sounds like I'm missing the low end of the drum. the highs seem a tad brittle too though. Also piano seems to sound a little dull


Take the tweeters down to -6. Can you post a screen shot of your L/R eq? I'd like to compare how the eq is set vs how it's measuring vs how its sounding to you......


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok so you want a screen shot of everything at once? Or seperate left and right ?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Just the L/R eq


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

FYI, this is a link to the TRRS TS TRS splitter that I use. I didn't get to the thread early enough to be the first person to mention it though  
Amazon.com: StarTech MUYHSFMM 3.5mm 4 Pin to 2x3 Pin 3.5mm Headset Splitter Adapter - F/M: Electronics


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So doing some more listening today, so far I think it's sounding really good. My mic adapter should be here today so I might beable to take a reading with REW. I'll post up a picture once I get it all up and running


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> So doing some more listening today, so far I think it's sounding really good. My mic adapter should be here today so I might beable to take a reading with REW. I'll post up a picture once I get it all up and running


What a difference a day makes .


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Yea really haha. Wonder if the nicer weather today made a difference! I'll be sure to post up and graph later today. I've noticed I've lost some output too. I'm assuming because of all the cutting ?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Yes you will lose some output with all the cutting, that's normal. Would still like to see your eq settings if you get a chance. Look forward to the graphs once you can use the mic.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Yea I'm currently at school but after class ill be sure to post another graph and list all my eq settings(they're what you suggested more or less). Any solution for the reduced output? Or is that just part of tuning and making cuts?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Increase amplifier gain


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

lol oh yess


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Got my mic working with REW, heres a quick reading i just took. still trying to figure out how to make it look nicer. 5db scale is all i could figure out how to do and i dont remember how i did that even


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

seems no matter how much I cut the tweeters I cant tame them enough. im still finding them a little too sharp


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Might be non-linear distortion. Highpass settings?


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

Go through the sound card calibration and enter the mic calibration file and run a test sweep or measure some pink noise. That should give you some good results to work with. And once you start, you can't stop, it will be so much fun!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> Got my mic working with REW, heres a quick reading i just took. still trying to figure out how to make it look nicer. 5db scale is all i could figure out how to do and i dont remember how i did that even


I am not an expert at measuring, so first of all check with Han and others if you measured correctly. Maybe run another set of measurements after calibration etc if you haven't done that. If the new reading is still similar to this we can take it from here.

Tweeters / highs are sharp? Notice on this curve how 1.6 khz to 2.5 khz range is as loud as the 30-60 hz range? Well, the 1.6-2.5khz range needs to be a good 6-7 db lower. That is why the highs are bright. Too much bite in the sound. Despite all our cuts here I'm surprised this range is still hot. It would really help if I could see the eq .

As a general approximation, 4 khz needs to be ~ 3-4 db lower than 1 khz. You need to raise the 400-1khz range a bit and bring the 1.25-4 khz range down. Widen the Q on the 8 khz cut so that it lowers the 6-7 khz peak. 

What is the xover point and slopes between the mid and the tweet?

P.S. did you measure at normal listening volume?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

That measurement is most likely invalid. Level is way too low, use sine sweep instead of noise if possible.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Yeah, raising the level will bring up the low end cause that is what we loose most by turning the volume down. But the upper midrange is still sizzling hot .


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Cross overs for mids/tweeters are 4k hpf 24db slope on the tweeter and 4k 24db slope lpf on the mids. I thought that REW reading might be off as the level was very low. I have the mic calibration file in place, but I probably need to do the sound card calibration. Also yes I did do it at normal listening levels but on REW it showed up very quiet. Ill have to play around with it a bit more. Ill post up again once I think it's right. But one things for sure, instill finding the tweeters too sharp


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> But one things for sure, instill finding the tweeters too sharp


While you figure out the measurement bit, using a graphic eq or a parametric on narrow Q, start by cutting 1.25 khz by 2.5 db and at each 1/3 oct, cut an additional 0.5 db. So -2.5db at 1.25, -3db at 1.6, -3.5 db at 2khz and so on, all the way to 4khz. Better? It feels like the tweeters are too bright, but actually the upper midrange is too hot. Will figure out more once you get the measurements up.

The xover and slopes are fine.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok I'll try that thanks.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I took another measurement just now with my iPhone app again after making some more cuts. This is what I've got now



Maybe I cut too much off 8k?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

How does it sound?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Well. I've a had a feeling something wasn't right. I've noticed a lack of mid bass recently and the rta shows it. Just now I lost my right mid completely. I had a feeling it was on its way out but now it's fully dead. I placed my DMM to it. 1.6ohms. That confirms its toast. Just shy of a year old and its done. The shop I bought it from is pretty good(least I think so) and they should warranty it for me no problem. Looks like tuning is done for the time being. Very annoying as I won't beable to pull it out till tomorrow. Wondering if I should leave it unplugged ? That 1.6ohm load cannot be healthy for my amp


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I should add this is the first time I've ever had a speaker that being a sub, mid, or tweeter fail on me.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

That sucks!! Hope you're able to put everything right with the shop. Don't worry we will still be here once you get your new mid in .


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Haha ok thanks a lot. I just called the shop. They said to just bring the mid in and they'll swap it for a new one. I wonder how much measurements will change with a nice fresh mid installed


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Measurements shouldn't change much, maybe a bit in the low end due to break in. We will know tmrw for sure .


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Yea I was wondering if I should give it time to break in before taking any measurements?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

The difference will be nominal. So yeah you can measure and we can play  If the bass increases slightly down the line, you will hear and we can correct it then.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok perfect. I'll be sure to get the new mid in tomorrow and measure again as I have the day off.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So new mid is installed and sounding pretty sweet. I actually drove to the shop with the door panel off and installed my new mid in the parking lot lol. I'm not very patient and the shop is about an hour away from me. 



There she is all ready to go just before I put the door panel back on. Was nice having the panel off watching it play on the way home. Now we can get back to tuning. Going to take some measurements and ill post them up soon.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So this is what my rta measurement looks like now with the new mid



Sounds a lot better too


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Your eq snapshot please, pretty please with strawberries. Congrats on the new mid.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

i did all the tuning so far via the controller for my dsp so ill have to go through the controller to list all the eq settings. not a problem, ill have time later today to do so. would be nice if there was a way i could load my current settings off my dsp onto my laptop but i dont think thats possible


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

My current eq settings 



Left eq
3.2k Q4.0 - 3db
80hz Q5 +2db
630hz Q5 +2db
200hz Q 2.5 -4db
400hz Q5.0 +2db
1k Q5.0 -5db
800hz Q5.0 +3db
7.1k Q2.0 -5db
8k Q3.0 -5db 


Right eq
3.2k Q4.0 - 3db
80hz Q5 +2db
630hz Q5 +2db
200hz 0db
400hz Q5.0 +2db
1k Q5.0 -5db
800hz Q5.0 +3db
7.1k Q2.0 -5db
8k Q3.0 -5db


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

am I drunk, or are those frequency values not in ascending order?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Yea those aren't in order at all lol. That's just how I have them ordered in my dsp


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> So this is what my rta measurement looks like now with the new mid
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds a lot better too





tgotovac said:


> My current eq settings
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Based on the above this is what comes to mind first. Save your current settings so that if none of the below works, you have something to come back to.

*40-60 hz :* Looks good no issues here.

*80-125 hz :* This range gives you your low end. Yes, 80 hz makes the sound thick, but in every car I have tuned, 80 has been cut a fair bit, else the bass is just too fat and bloated. Plus, the near side is almost always louder than the far side in the 80-300 range with fairly radical swings, compare your L & R readings to see what you need to correct, on which side and by how much. Let's get a solid base and then build the tonality on it. It would be interesting to see separate L/R graphs, you will probably find the near side is hotter between 80-160ish. 100 is the energy in your mid bass. Try and keep 100 hz a db or so above, or even at par with 80. 125hz is definitely a couple of db below 100hz.

*160-400* This is a tricky range. For one, 160 itself will be much hotter from one side, you will need to correct for all that. I will keep 160 about 1-2 db below 100. 160 is also tricky because 0.5db more and the sound is too thick and fat, 0.5 db less and the sound is paper thin. I might first try to raise 160 by 0.5 db and then cut 200-250 by 1-1.5db makes the sound boomy. You want the low end 60-250 to be TIGHT and TAUT. That comes from two things, how you set 80-250 _and_ 500-1khz. You want right amount of low end combined with the tightness, dynamics, snap that come from the harmonics of the low end fundamentals. 

When music is recorded, the engineer uses 300 hz to give a boost to vocals. This frequency can bloat vocals if too hot. Cut a bit here and see how it sounds, now un-do the cut. Which way does it sound better? . The bottom end for most male vocals is 125-160hz and females bottom out at 300. 

Try cutting 400 hz back to 0 and see what happens. Not sure you need a boost here. There are some frequencies that add chaff to the sound ie make the sound less 'clean' so to say. If I have chaff in the sound I will typically look at 400 / 800 / 4khz / 8khz. So I'm extra careful with these frequencies.

*500-1khz* This is much better. Not sure if the earlier dip here was on account of the driver or what, but that dip was not normal. This range is CRITICAL for clarity in your vocals and dynamics and vibrancy in your sound. When it's over done, the sound is thin stretched and hornlike. If both this range and 200-300 hz are hot, you'll have chesty sounding male vocals. EQ this range using a graphic eq. This range is best set by ear. try cutting a bit in the 500-800 range, if you cut too much the sound will be dull and vocals will sound immersed in the rest of the mix. 1 khz is great for dynamics. 800 along with 500 hz, 600 is good for the snap on drums. So try cutting 500-800 one at at time then un-do the cuts. Which way does it sound better? 

*1.25-4khz:* This range is giving your sound its bite. I'd cut 1.6 and 2khz by about 1.5 db.

Now how does it sound? How does it measure after these changes? Let's hear and see.................BTW are you hooked to this by now.


[edit] Re-written for better clarity[edit]


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Lol yes I am defiantly hooked. Ill make those changes after work tonight and post up my results. it's getting better for sure, still a few things I'm unhappy with but the bass is getting cleaner without a doubt. Ill post seperate L/R tonight as well. Thanks for all the help so far!


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Also wondering if I should switch to the graphic eq? Seems the 10bands of parametric I have is not enough?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Switch to graphic. That gives you 31 bands a side so that you can correct for L/R and tonality. Wanted you to settle into using the eq, but yeah I would take 31 band graphic over 10 band parametric.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

How's the tuning going?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Switched to graphic eq. Everything is flat now and I need to start over. I'm going to take a measurement with all eq off and see where that leaves me. My new mid should be broken in by now right ?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Parametric is more powerful but can be more complicated to setup. If you've reset filters do fresh measurements L/R separately. Preferably with computer software...


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Filters all are the same there's just no eq applied now. I've been trying to use REW but it doesn't seem to be working with the mic I have so for the time being ill have to use the phone app. Ill do seperate L/R measurements though that's not a problem


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Left side reading. All eq settings off 




Right side all eq off. This mid may still be breaking in as its new 




Full system


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Dunno if I missed it but is this a 2-way or 3-way front?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Oh yea this is 2-way front plus sub


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Good, let's start from scratch. 

There's a a quick and easy way to get the L/R response balanced, without going into the whole measuring/correcting cycle. Take some tape and mark a small X just under your rear view mirror. Now play the pink noise track and get all frequencies centred at the X, or as close to it as possible. 

If you have a 2 way up front with the woofer down low and the tweeter on dash/sails/pillars, the low end frequencies may image up a bit below the X, at or just above dash level. That is fine. Just ensure that it is vertically aligned with the X. If a track images up left of the X cut the left side etc. Once you centre a frequency move your head a bit to ensure the image doesn't move. 

You'll find frequencies in the 1-4 khz range tough to centre. Some may not respond much to eq and in almost all cases a slight head movement will make the sound jump from side to side. Centre these frequencies while looking forward, cause that's how your head will be placed most of the time. Frequencies that don't move with eq can be made to move with a click or two on the TA. So lets say 2 khz pulls left and is not responding to eq, add one click of delay to the far mid and tweet (with a xover of 3 khz both mid and tweet are playing 2 khz audibly, at 1 khz you'd only tweak the mid). Conversely you can reduce the delay a click on the near side, same effect. 

Don't be afraid to make big cuts. When I eq, if I need to cut 160 hz on the near side by 4 db, I'll cut the far side by 1 db and then cut the near side by 5 and so on. It should take you about 20 mts to do this. Then Measure L/R and see how close you get.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So you recommend I do this with pink noise vs just playing a tone at every frequency I have on my eq?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Use the 1/3 oct pink noise tracks. Play the 200hz track and centre next 315 hz, 400 hz and so on. It corresponds to the 1/3 oct frequencies on your eq.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok perfect ill give that a go today. Should help center everything


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So here's what I got now after try what you mentioned


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

How does L/R look now? Do you hear / see any difference? Did you get all the frequencies centred? How does it sound? Are the vocals submerged in the rest of the sound? 100-400 still looks hot. Try some cuts here, but now since you have balanced L/R, if you want to cut 1 db at 125, make sure you cut 1 db on both sides.....

P.S It would be great if you could share some details on how it sounds, don't worry about how you describe the sound. Let's try and go by how you're hearing the low/mid/highs, balance, tonal accuracy etc


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So far it sounds like the vocals are mostly if not all coming from the rear view. It's pretty cool. In terms of sound it seems like the vocals need some work though. I have yet to measure left and right separately again but I will do that. Some of frequencies I had a hard time centering it sounded like it was just coming from everywhere


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> S Some of frequencies I had a hard time centering it sounded like it was just coming from everywhere


Were these frequencies between 2-5 khz? That's normal. Cut both sides and try to centre again.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok I'll try again. In terms of how it sounds, the tweeters seem to be on level with the mids now. Not overpowering them anymore. vocals sound a little lacking or thin almost. And it seems like I'm missing some mid impact on drums. Bass is a lot more tame now but I'm missing detail in the bass line of some songs


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Is it just a sweep from 20hz-20khz ?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok I'll try that. Seems ill have to make a spotify account


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

The sweep and warble tracks are good to check if you did centering properly. Keep in mind that the sweep covers all frequencies between 20-20k, of which you can center only 31. The eq is at 1/3 we can tell L/R imbalance at ~ 1/6 octave. 

What I'm saying is that even if you have done the L/R correctly, don't expect the sweep to be entirely from one spot. With your two way, the sweep location will start lower and rise with higher frequencies, that rise should be vertical and not at an angle. There may be a slight shift left/right in the sweep at frequencies you can hear but not set. That is fine.

What you don't want is the sweep starting way on one side with major left / right shifts. That definitely means you need to redo the L/R.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> So here's what I got now after try what you mentioned





tgotovac said:


> Ok I'll try again. In terms of how it sounds, the tweeters seem to be on level with the mids now. Not overpowering them anymore. vocals sound a little lacking or thin almost. And it seems like I'm missing some mid impact on drums. Bass is a lot more tame now but I'm missing detail in the bass line of some songs


I'm assuming the RTA is after you did the L/R. 

If the vocals are lacking raise 600 & 800hz by 1/2 db on both sides. Cut 1 khz 1 db on both sides. Cut 1.25 and 1.6 khz by 1.5 db on both sides. Cut 2khkz 1 db both sides. Cut 8khz 3-4db on both sides, basically cut here till you loose the graininess in the sound. 

Is the thin sound better? Cut 100 hz by 1 db both sides cut 125hz by 2 db on both both sides. Cut 200 by 1.5db both sides, 250 by 1 db both sides and 300 by 1/2 db both sides.

How does it sound now?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

tgotovac said:


> Left side reading. All eq settings off
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Left

Hz/dB

200 -8
250 -6
315 -3
800 +2
1k -2
1,2k +1
1,6k +1
2k -3
2,5k +1
3,2k -2
4k + 2
5k -6
6,3k -7
8k -10

RIGHT

125 -5
160 +1
200 +1
400 +3
500 +3
800 -3
1k -4
1.2k -4
1,6k -3
2k -3
2,5k -6
3,2k +2
4k +1
5k -5
6,3k -5
8k -5


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Hard to know if EQing the dips will make any difference. It might be destructive interference, EQ there will result in distortion. Again, these graphs are limited.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> Left
> 
> Hz/dB
> 
> ...


You have a lot more patience than me. I saw the L/R and got the OP to try and centre everything using that X trick. He's done his L/R balance but has yet to post the revised L/R RTA.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sqnut said:


> You have a lot more patience than me. I saw the L/R and got the OP to try and centre everything using that X trick. He's done his L/R balance but has yet to post the revised L/R RTA.


I was doing it over the phone xD 

Still curious was causes those huge dips, a MLS/Sine-sweep would reveal it...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

gregerst22 said:


> sqnut / hanatsu, can you post rta graphs?


An example you mean? Not using RTA, it's useless to troubleshoot a system with as it doesn't contain time/phase information. Much better to extract data from an impulse response via FFT.

Here's a detailed FR plot over my sub/mids. Notice the resolution compared to the phone app RTA.



With phase data you can detect non-minimum phase regions (areas where EQ won't work)


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

i will post both L and R eq today after class. im curious as to what is casuing my dips as well. so far the vocals seem to be staying center alot more then they were before. sorry to keep you guys waiting!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

The curious thing about that 400-600 dip is that it is on the passenger side. The drivers side seems top be much better. Sometimes when the mids are low in the door and there is a big/prominent centre console you get this issue. On the combined reading its better. 

If you have a big centre console measure from the far mid to the console is it ~ 22"?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

It's strange because my center console is pretty low. Really shouldn't be in the way of the speaker at all. Buy looking at it I would say its over 22" away but ill measure when I have a chance. There must be something strange going on here


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sqnut said:


> The curious thing about that 400-600 dip is that it is on the passenger side. The drivers side seems top be much better. Sometimes when the mids are low in the door and there is a big/prominent centre console you get this issue. On the combined reading its better.
> 
> If you have a big centre console measure from the far mid to the console is it ~ 22"?


Yeah... it's usually the driver side that looks crappy.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

im wondering what volume i should be taking my measurments at? ive been trying to consistantly get around 60db everytime. should it be louder? or quieter?


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

I've always tried to do all my tuning at 90db. Aren't meca judgings done at 90? It seemed reasonable. Tho I will admit i haven't actually calibrated my measuring setup correctly. I have my volume set where I would listen to it while driving and told rew it was 90db.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

90 is a good benchmark. 95-97 is cranked for me. So that's where I set things. If it sounds good I'm gonna crank it and it shouldn't fall apart. So I just tune at that level. 

Other times I'll tune at 65-70. For me tonality is the balance between the mids lows and highs while timbre is the accuracy of sound. By turning the volume down if I loose that sense of balance then I know somethings wrong. It works the other way as well. If it sounds great at 70 but falls apart at 95, again the balance is out. I think the MECA score sheet classifies this as linearity.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

so maybe ill take my next measurments at max volume i listen to my music at?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> so maybe ill take my next measurments at max volume i listen to my music at?


On your RTA screen shot, the top left corner displays 'Headset Mic Low', is this a setting that you can change? Scroll through the menu and see if you can change this...... I'm just guessing. If you're listening at 90-100 db and measuring it shouldn't show up as 60db.

It's not such a big deal though. You can continue to use these readings till you figure out the glitch and/or you get a mic. You're still putting too much emphasis on measuring. You should give an equal focus to how it sounds and be writing long posts on whats good/bad, what were the changes you heard when you made all the eq corrections etc. You have to hear your way to good sound measurements are just a tool to get you in the ball park.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok I'll start writing more about how I think it sounds. I'm heading home now. Ill have L/R measurements soon


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Alright guys here's left and right after trying to do it by ear using pink noise and making the minor adjustments sqnut suggested. 



Left side 




Ride side


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sqnut said:


> 90 is a good benchmark. 95-97 is cranked for me. So that's where I set things. If it sounds good I'm gonna crank it and it shouldn't fall apart. So I just tune at that level.
> 
> Other times I'll tune at 65-70. For me tonality is the balance between the mids lows and highs while timbre is the accuracy of sound. By turning the volume down if I loose that sense of balance then I know somethings wrong. It works the other way as well. If it sounds great at 70 but falls apart at 95, again the balance is out. I think the MECA score sheet classifies this as linearity.


95? Whot... I think 130-140dB is more like it xD xD


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Hanatsu said:


> 95? Whot... I think 130-140dB is more like it xD xD


LOL. Thats good!


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sqnut said:


> You're still putting too much emphasis on measuring.


Hm... where have I heard that before......

Again if we learn how to interpret all relevant data, measurements are kinda awesome you know. Car audio would be kinda dull without the techno-babble


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

tgotovac said:


> Alright guys here's left and right after trying to do it by ear using pink noise and making the minor adjustments sqnut suggested.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like you managed to pull up those dips a bit. Sound good or?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I feel a long post describing what it sounds like to me is in order. It's strange because I only boosted 630hz and 800hz by 1db. Interms of sound vocals seem way more centered. I'm not getting much sharpness in the higher areas anymore. Still slight Silibance but I feel that's because of my tweeters firing into my windshield. I plan to relocate those in the near future. Everything's sounding alot better but I need to do more critical listening today before I get into real detail. Any specific tracks you recommend for this?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Pick any track that is well recorded and one that you are familiar with. If you have a 2ch at home use that as your reference sound, you can also use decent cans and a flac file to set up the ref sound. 

Once you have picked the track, listen to it on the ref setup then listen to it in the car. You will have to back and forth 5-6 times before the differences start to stand out. Keep going back and forth between the ref setup and the car to pick the differences and make notes. The more differences you can pick the more we can correct the sound.

Not sure if you listen to Floyd, but 'Great Gig In The Sky' from DSOTM could be one possible example. BUT its more important for you to pick something you are familiar with and have heard a lot . Good Luck!!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> 95? Whot... I think 130-140dB is more like it xD xD


lol...........I guess kids will be kids. Flexing cars isn't my thing

If I max out my volume, I get 110 db on my phone spl meter and it's ear splitting loud (considering how loud it is it still sounds decent) Of course, God only knows how accurate that spl app and the mic on my droid is. Also 99% of music I listen to is stuff that isn't recorded very loud so maybe that makes a difference too. 

I can turn the gains up to make it louder, but that just seems to add some distortion that I can't clear out with the eq. 95-100db is plenty loud for an older fuddy-duddy like me.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> I feel a long post describing what it sounds like to me is in order. It's strange because I only boosted 630hz and 800hz by 1db. Interms of sound vocals seem way more centered. I'm not getting much sharpness in the higher areas anymore. Still slight Silibance but I feel that's because of my tweeters firing into my windshield. I plan to relocate those in the near future. Everything's sounding alot better but I need to do more critical listening today before I get into real detail. Any specific tracks you recommend for this?


For sibilance cut 6 & 8 a lot. Cut a touch at 16. Tweeters in the corner of dash firing into the windshield are great locations, as counter intuitive as it seems. Great for depth once you get the right roll off in the highs. The location isn't causing sibilance.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok I'll cut a little more 6 & 8. I really like pink Floyd and I usually use hey you or comfortably numb as I know those songs best. Ill do some more listening today and mention what I don't like.


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## Sencheezy (Feb 2, 2014)

Lots of good info here.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> Hm... where have I heard that before......
> 
> Again if we learn how to interpret all relevant data, measurements are kinda awesome you know. Car audio would be kinda dull without the techno-babble


Measurements are great for resolving the basics, arrival times, L/R balance, dialing in the house curve etc. Beyond a point whatever you measure, correction is only possible using arrival times, response and to some degree absorption, although that too is also response shaping. We don't have a another way. 

So its a given that it will come down to shaping the response. Now when you're measuring you're doing one or a few things at a time. Measuring, correcting for it and trying to associate a linkage between the correction and change in sound. Too many things to measure, the ideal response curve is not defined and what you think measures ideal may not sound perfect. To get it to sound really great, you've got to be listening to it more than measuring it. That's my reasoning.

OTOH, when you're listening you're hearing everything, the good the bad and the ugly. The first thing one needs is the ability to tell the three apart. Then just use timing/xover/slopes/ eq to correct whats wrong. Once you get the first three done, 80% of the work is on the eq. Figuring out what each frequency does to the sound. So now you hear a defect, make an estimate of what needs correction and let your ears decide better or worse. But even here you are picking and correcting one thing at a time. You correct something and you'll hear something else that is wrong..... Over time this becomes intuitive and one doesn't feel the need to measure again. 



You have to hear your way to good sound.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> Ok I'll cut a little more 6 & 8. I really like pink Floyd and I usually use hey you or comfortably numb as I know those songs best. Ill do some more listening today and mention what I don't like.


Perfect!!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

gregerst22 said:


> sqnut / hanatsu, can you post rta graphs?


I'm sorry, I missed this post. Frankly I haven't measured in years and I don't know where my mic is. The best I can do is take an RTA screen shot on my mobile with music playing, if that is of any help....


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Measurements are great for resolving the basics, arrival times, L/R balance, dialing in the house curve etc. Beyond a point whatever you measure, correction is only possible using arrival times, response and to some degree absorption, although that too is also response shaping. We don't have a another way.
> 
> So its a given that it will come down to shaping the response. Now when you're measuring you're doing one or a few things at a time. Measuring, correcting for it and trying to associate a linkage between the correction and change in sound. Too many things to measure, the ideal response curve is not defined and what you think measures ideal may not sound perfect. To get it to sound really great, you've got to be listening to it more than measuring it. That's my reasoning.
> 
> ...


And that right there is what I've come to learn while working with sqnut for my setup. Along with many other things. Using the how to listen software has really helped me in more accurately pin point problem areas. System is sounding better then ever. Depth (driver locations and the wa my dash is) isn't the best but focus and width are awesome.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I've Done a lot of listening today, and will do some more tomorrow. I've picked out a few things I'm not happy with but over all its improving for sure. Ill have a longer post tomorrow describing what it sounds like and we'll take it from there!


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I can recommend listening to; Murray Head - one night in bangkok / and one - speicherbar (verifying center staging). Abba - chiquitita (any harshness in the midrange will be revealed easily). Eagles - hotel california_unplugged (bass performance, L/R boundaries)


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok. I will listen to those as well thanks!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Beckerson1 said:


> Using the how to listen software has really helped me in more accurately pin point problem areas. System is sounding better then ever.


I'm glad you brought that up. Would be great if you could share some of your experiences with the tool for the OP's benefit.



Beckerson1 said:


> Depth (driver locations and the wa my dash is) isn't the best but focus and width are awesome.


Depth is elusive. Some things essential for depth perception imho. [edit]

1. It's got to be there in the recording. Only about 30-40% recorded content has any semblance of depth.

2. Even the slightest smearing will detract from depth. The sound has to be totally still.

3. Physical distance of the drivers helps, the further away from you, the greater the perception of depth. If you have a mid and tweet up on the dash, try to get them physically further from you. Even if it means pushing them against the windshield.

4. You need the correct roll off in your highs above ~ 5khz. That helps create the sense of distance. 
[edit]


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

While you are doing your listening this is just something to try later. 

To get the car to sound right around 80 % of your efforts will be devoted to using the eq. You'll get the maximum out of the eq when you're instinctive with what each frequency does to the sound. Over time you want to get to a point where you can listen to the sound, feel that it is too grainy and instinctively know if you need to cut 400, 1.25 or 4khz and be right 8/10.

This Harmon How to Listen is a good place to get started. The band ID training is a great way to familiarize yourself with what each band on the eq does to the sound. Break up the 20-20khz range into the following four ranges

Low 20-200hz
Mid 300-1khz
Upper Mid 1.2-4 khz
Highs 5khz+

For a start try and see if you can place each cut/boost in the right range. Don't worry about the actual frequency being chnaged. Once you get the range right 80% of the time then move on to picking a frequency within that range, then try and get within +/- 1/3 oct of actual frequency and so on. Here is the link. Harman How to Listen

If you have a desktop with decent 2.1 speakers, this is a fun thing to try. Try and spend 10-15 min a day with this, see how it goes. I hope Beckerson1 chimes in with his experiences as well.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ill need to learn how to do that. I feel I can pick out some frequencies that cause problems now that I've seen what my system looks like on an rta but I'm still not 100% sure and I don't like just cutting randomly. I thought all of the mud I was getting was coming from my sub when really it was around 200hz


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> I thought all of the mud I was getting was coming from my sub when really it was around 200hz


Which is precisely why _you_ should eventually learn to associate what you're hearing with the relevant frequency range. _That_ is when the real big bang changes will come. That Harmon app will over time help you get intuitive with your eq.

Looking at the RTA and then eq is only a start. Beyond a point only your ears will tell you if you need to raise or cut 800hz by 0.5db. What you have experienced thus far is only the tip of the iceberg. 7/8 is still hidden.

How did the listening sessions go?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

There's another way of doing it aa well. If you hear a sound in any song that sound 'off' - just load the song in audacity and do a spectrum analysis of that portion of the song. You will then see the frequency content and you'll know what's wrong.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Alright guys, its time for me to talk about what ive heard over the past few days of listening. First off, it seems my midbass mud is more or less completely gone. Listening to hey you, I did notice a few things I didn’t like. It seems im lacking in the impact area a little bit interms of how the drums sound. The bass line is there, and its fairly loud(I love nice bass lines) but it seens to diminish as the song goes on. this may just be how it way intended to sound in which case this isn’t a problem. the drum roll seems to start near the right a pillar, and work its way across the dash to the left a pillar. is this right? or should it be in the center and just stay in the center of the dash? I feel its lacking some detail and life/sparkle up high. Maybe too many cuts in the tweeter area? My tweeters are sounding great though, all sharpness, harshness , and silibance is gone. Im having some issues with tweeter location being too localized as I can almost everytime pick out what is coming from which tweeter and im pretty sure its just due to their location. In terms of stage height, EVERYTHING(almost) is above the dash. This I really like. Bass/midbass sounds like its all coming from the windshield in the same general area. Vocals are centered but I feel im lacking some focus. The voice sounds like its coming from mid windshield(slightly below the rearview mirror) but if I close my eyes and listen it seems a little smeared and unclear where exactly its coming from. Its better then it was before, as before it was centered way too far to the right. I went through a lot of material, all uncompressed apple lossless files, no low bitrate mp3s so I know the source is good. I went through some of the more SQ stuff I listen to. The police, rage against the machines self-titled album, john mayer, pink Floyd, genesis and for female vocals I went to adel, evanescence, and Mariah carey. I found all the material I listened to fell short in the same areas as pink floyds hey you. Evanescence’s voice use to kill in the upper range, where now that’s no longer an issue. Basic things id like to fix would be the focus, lack of impact and adding some more life to the sound. ive also noticed it seems to fall apart just a little as max listening volume. perhaps my gaisn need adjustment?


i hope that wasnt too long! if you want more just ask!


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

The "Impact" from drums etc. you refer to, is very likely the lower midrange that too attenuated. In the whereabouts of 400-800Hz (where you had issues at one side) is probably the reason. "Sparkle" is above 8k and related to the tweeter placement... you need it on-axis (or angle it carefully against the windshield). Idk if your DSP can add shelf filters? Shelfing 300-1000Hz a bit might do the trick.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

What's shelfing filters? I've never hear that term. I need to reposition my tweeters. I would like to place them on my a pillars I feel the stock location is no good faint straight into the windshield. I use to have amazing impact and midbass was great but over the past month or 2 I've noticed a decrease in both output, and impact. I don't think it's related to the eq cuts either as they've helped a lot in reducing unwanted sound. I'm finding(past 2 months) I have to turn my volume knob up higher to get the same output I was getting at at lower volume before


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

A shelf looks a bit like a crossover filter but the rolloff kinda stops at some point (the dB gain you set) and become flat after that again.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS0uWcQWojpqnfQf8p_ByPJOrb2SRkuYbkJ0UA1BVxbj4f7VYjKZ62kKkHH


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

my DSP doesnt have anything like that in it. i think i need to go over my gains and figure out whats going on with this massive loss of output in the mid area


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network

Dunno if this was posted before but here you got a frequency chart over instruments etc.

It's still much much better to troubleshoot a system with measurements, especially over a forum. Subjective thoughts can be misinterpreted quite easily. (IMO^^) 

"Midrange" is quite a large area. It's basically frequencies from the low 200's to 4000-5000Hz. Getting the midrange right is probably the most common issue within car audio, even in home audio to some extent. Fundamentals and harmonics must share the right amplitude ratio, otherwise it will sound off. Generally you want the low midrange above the high midrange in a car, for reasons already mentioned.

Here's a full system average of my system, mostly downward tilted. It sounds very neutral, pretty close to my home audio system.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> First off, it seems my midbass mud is more or less completely gone.


Hold that thought.



tgotovac said:


> Listening to hey you, I did notice a few things I didn’t like. It seems im lacking in the impact area a little bit interms of how the drums sound. The bass line is there, and its fairly loud(I love nice bass lines) but it seens to diminish as the song goes on. this may just be how it way intended to sound in which case this isn’t a problem.


Tighten up the drums by cutting 160 by 0.5 db both sides, 200 and 250 on the near side 2 db. 



tgotovac said:


> the drum roll seems to start near the right a pillar, and work its way across the dash to the left a pillar. is this right? or should it be in the center and just stay in the center of the dash?


If that section is close mic'd then you will get that panning effect. If the drums stay at a fixed location during the rest of the song, it's fine. The 200-250 cuts on the near side mentioned earlier, should help as well. 



tgotovac said:


> I feel its lacking some detail and life/sparkle up high. Maybe too many cuts in the tweeter area?


Raise 5khz by 0.5 db on both sides. We will do a separate post on the sparkle, but there's something else I want to address with the tweets. 



tgotovac said:


> My tweeters are sounding great though, all sharpness, harshness , and silibance is gone. Im having some issues with tweeter location being too localized as I can almost everytime pick out what is coming from which tweeter and im pretty sure its just due to their location. In terms of stage height,


Play only the tweets, do they localize at the two corners? Cut the near side tweet at 8, 10 and 16 about 1.5 db each. Still pulling apart? That's probably because there is too much delay between the tweets. Cut the delay on the near tweet. With the eq changes and the TA you should get a nice centred image from the tweets. 



tgotovac said:


> The voice sounds like its coming from mid windshield(slightly below the rearview mirror) but if I close my eyes and listen it seems a little smeared and unclear where exactly its coming from.


You should have better focus on the vocals with the suggestions thus far.



tgotovac said:


> Basic things id like to fix would be the focus, lack of impact and adding some more life to the sound. ive also noticed it seems to fall apart just a little as max listening volume. perhaps my gaisn need adjustment?


Hopefully the focus is better now and for more snap, pull up 800 on the near side and 600 on the far side0.5-1 db. See what sounds best. 




tgotovac said:


> i hope that wasnt too long! if you want more just ask!


Keep it coming.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

That would be an ideal measurement I think. If I could get mine to look like that I think it would sound perfect but I'm wondering what's causing my dip around 400-800hz and I really want to try and avoid boosting unless absolutely needed


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I will try all you recommendations tonight after work sqnut. Thanks for all the help so far guys!! I will most certainly keep it coming


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So I made the suggested changes and so fa it's made quite the difference I'm really liking how its sounding so far. Ill do more listening today and tomorrow and write another post on how it sounds to me now


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Did you do the thingy with the tweets? Is the focus better? The Interactive Frequency chart that Han posted is a very good reference to understanding what frequency you need to play with for a specific issue.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Just did it. Focus is much better vocals are just a litlle to the right from center. Once I turned my mids back in it shifted to the left a little bit. Maybe my mids were causing the issues? I have t/a set to what I think is ok but maybe it needs to be tweaked


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I still haven't looked at the chart but I will when I have a little more time


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Here's a quick and easy way to get the TA set. See if it works.

Put on some bass heavy music and play only your near mid and the sub. The two drivers are in phase when you hear _all the low end_ as if it's coming from the mid. There is a range of delay where this will happen. Within that you are looking for the point where you have the best clarity. Too little delay on the mid and the bass will be thinner, too much delay and it will feel like the low end is clouding out the clarity. Now do the same with the sub and the far mid. Once you have got both sides done play the two mids together, you should have them in phase. If you need to move it slightly left add a click of delay on the near side, if you want to move it to the right add a click of delay to the far side. Now the two mids and the sub are TA.

Play the near mid and the near tweeter. You want the sound to image up at the near sail or A pillar (the low end will pull down a bit that's fine). To get it there add/reduce delay on the near tweeter only. Again you're looking for clarity. Now do the same on the far mid and tweet and try to image the sound at the right sail / pillar. This will put the mid and tweet on each side in phase with each other. It should also put the tweets in phase with each other. Play only the tweets and you should have them centred. If you need to move it a touch left add a click of delay on the near tweet. If you want to move it right add a click of delay on the far side.

The centre with L/R mids playing will image lower than that with L/R tweets playing that is fine. BUT the two should be vertically aligned. If one images slightly left and the other to the right, its going to mess with focus and cause smearing.

Done.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I've done that before but I don't think I did a very good job. Ill try this again. Is it easier to put TA at 0 and increase it or start with TA maxed and decrease it?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Where is the sub located? Is it the furthest driver?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Sub is in the trunk. I've got a 4 door car. I'm wondering if I should remove the speakers in the rear deck to allow bass to pass through the openings? Rear speakers have been unplugged since I got the car


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

I have a pair of 6x9 mounted on the rear shelf that I haven't used for the last six years, that I've thought about removing but was too lazy to and ones that I had forgotten about till your post. 

In real world terms, as long as you run a low xover on your sub with steep slopes it shouldn't really matter. If however your sub runs upto 100 then yes the wave from the sub would excite the rears and create another point source and you would have problems of timing and the low end could pull back. Removing the rears would make the sub louder yes.

Keep the sub at 0 and add delay to the other drivers. It doesn't make a difference if you keep all drivers at 0 and then add delay or set everything at max and then work back. What matters is the relative delay between the drivers. Just trying to figure out why you would want to set everything to max and work back?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Wasn't sure if maybe it made a difference starring at 0 or not. Ill give it a try again after work but I think my mids and tweeters are not aligned properly


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

With you in the drivers seat get someone to measure distance from your ear to each driver. Drivers on the left to your left ear and drivers to your right to your right ear. You can measure the sub along the outside of the car. Let's say you come up with these readings

Sub - 78"
Near Mid - 44"
Near Tweet - 48"
Far Mid - 54"
Far tweet - 60"

Set the sub to 0
Set near mid to (78 - 44)/13.5 = 2.50 ms
Set near tweet to (78 - 48)/13.5 = 2.22 ms
Set far mid to (78 - 54)/13.5 = 1.78 ms
Set far tweet to (78 - 60)/13.5 = 1.33 ms

This will bring you 90% of the way there. Now play the sub and near mid and go a couple of clicks up and down on the mids TA and look for that point of max bass and clarity, the do the same for the far mid, then play the two mids and center and so on.

From the above example notice how the relative delay falls in place when you align everything with the furthest driver. Eg path length difference between near and far mid is 54-44 = 10" which is 10/13.5 = 0.740 ms. You've set near mid at 2.5 ms and the far mid at 1.78 ms for a relative delay of 0.72 ms, you're within a couple of clicks to get it dialed in.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So I did a little testing just now as something was really bothering my about the lack in the 500hz range on my chart. I wanted to rule gear out as a possible issue. What I did was play a 500hz tone at max volume with my DMM plugged into my amp. It read 10volts and that's with 4db off boost from my dsp. I also realized I have the imprint eq feature turned on on my alpine dsp. I turned it off for testing purposes and the voltage jumped to 23volts. That seems where it should be. Now I'm starting to think I've got an issue with my dsp maybe?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

This is what my rta looks like as of right now with all the suggested so far settings and a boost at 500hz 



Sound is getting a lot better but I plan to try and get some better TA settings


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

I'm not familiar with the H800 but you want the auto tune / imprint turned off. You want full manual control over the unit disable any presets, do the TA and then take a left, right and combined measurement.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

My impression with imprint is that it did a good job with the T/A part. The measurement looks pretty decent now.

Try lower 250, 315 and 1kHz by 1dB or so.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> Try lower 250, 315 and 1kHz by 1dB or so.


^^ and cut 125 by ~ 2 db while you're at it. Try the TA as suggested, make sure mids and tweets centre on the same vertical line and then listen and see if focus is better. Another detailed post on how it sounds would be great too.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I've had luck with T/Aing tweets (by intentionally lowering HPF temporarily) till the acoustic center (all other speakers off). Then mute them and T/A the mids (with the same HPF as tweets) to the same spot. Voila! Perfect center


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> I've had luck with T/Aing tweets (by intentionally lowering HPF temporarily) till the acoustic center (all other speakers off). Then mute them and T/A the mids (with the same HPF as tweets) to the same spot. Voila! Perfect center


That works because you have 200hz physically on the dash. With mids and 200hz down low, it's tough to get the same spot, hence the vertical alignment.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok so I still need to trying to get the TA better. Ill make the changes you guys suggested and then try to TA better. Ill write another post with L/R measurements when it's all done


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Do you find yourself thinking about it even when you're not tuning?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Lol yes. All the time. It's a problem


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> Lol yes. All the time. It's a problem


You're doing good. Instead of repeatedly going back and forth between TA and EQ every time we want to solve something, its best to settle the TA so that the focus can be on EQ.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok that sounds good. Focus on one thing at a time. Been busy the past few days with work. Ill have some time tomorrow to work on the t/a but I must say everything is sounding much better!!


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So I feel I've got my right mid and sub pretty well aligned but I'm having a hard time getting my left mid and sub aligned. Any tricks or tips for this? Is the driver side usually harder?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

tgotovac said:


> Is the driver side usually harder?


Yes... It's usually modal issues, cancellations related to the distance you sit from the speaker, the speaker location related to the interior "walls". Issues at 70-90Hz and 140-180Hz is quite common, driver side.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Perhaps I should sit in the passenger seat while trying to align driver mid and sub ?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> So I feel I've got my right mid and sub pretty well aligned but I'm having a hard time getting my left mid and sub aligned. Any tricks or tips for this? Is the driver side usually harder?


The quickest way is to measure the distance to the near mid and sub and start from there. The sweet spot will always be within a few clicks of the measured distance. If you're having modal issues like Han pointed out, then one way is to raise the xover point when you're aligning the sub and the near mid. Eg lets say your normal xover for sub to mid is 60hz. Raise that to ~100-125hz and then try. Once you have dialed the timing bring the xover back to 60. Timing doesn't change with xover points.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok that sounds like it'll work! Ill give it a shot tomorrow and hopefully i get it
Aligned well. I think tweeters to mids will be even more difficult though


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

The tweeters to mid should be simpler. Don't get wrapped up and go around in circles wondering if you nailed it 100%. It will come over time, when you're fine tuning and once your ears start picking subtle differences. Getting it 95% there is a great place to start.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Hopefully I can get it there. Ill report back tomorrow and hopefully I can get it at least 90% of The way


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

.....So, how did it go?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ill be finishing up my attempt at TA today. Still dealing with the drivers side. Ill let you know how it goes and ill be sure to use your tip about raising the xover


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

so i think i may have finally gotten the TA dialed in pretty close to perfect. was a little struggle but its sounding pretty good! thanks for the help so far


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Is the focus better now? How does it sound? Wanna share something on the process what worked and what didn't?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

focus is alot better, stage depth and height are there for sure but width...this is where i feel i have an issue probably due to the location of my drivers side tweeter. what i found worked nicely(even for a noob like me) was to find a rap song or any song with a louder CONSISTANT bass line that comes through both the sub an mids. i say consitant because alot of songs have a bass line that is in and out and all over stoping at starting again. this made it really hard for me until i found a rap song where the bass is more or less the same throughout the entire song. passenger side was easy but for the drivers side i had to raise the lpf on my sub and i actually sat in the passengers seat. i felt that made it alot easier. basically just dialed up the TA till the bass from the sub sounded as if it was coming from the mid.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> focus is alot better, stage depth and height are there for sure but width...this is where i feel i have an issue ...............and i actually sat in the passengers seat. i felt that made it alot easier. basically just dialed up the TA till the bass from the sub sounded as if it was coming from the mid.


By sitting in the passenger seat you're aligning the drivers side mid to passenger seat distance.....now with you back in drivers seat that timing is off. Just use measured distance to near mid and calculate delay and use that. Getting the correct delay between L/R will help you get better width perception. If it pulls to the sides there's too much delay between L/R if it all collapses in the middle there's not enough delay between the sides.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok I didn't think of that. Ill use the measured distance then report back. Thanks


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Using measured distances these are the values I got

Left tweeter (82-42)/13.5 = 2.96ms
Left mid (82-41)/13.5 = 3.03ms
Right tweeter (82-51)/13.5 = 2.29ms
Right mid (82-52)/13.5 = 2.22ms

Does this seem right ? I just did it and am doing some listening now before work. I'm noticing so far everything seems too far right towards the passengers side


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Play the tweets only and mark the center with a X. Now play the mids only and mark where the vocal images up. Where are the two X's viz a vis each other and the rear view?

Play the 1/3 oct pink noise frequencies to check that they are centred.


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

Where are you getting the 82 from, sub distance? If you are sure the distances are right you can then use relative intensity to adjust left and right a bit. It could be like hat the right is too high. Make sure L and R start at the same dB level to begin with.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

82 is sub distance yes. Ill measure more accurately tomorrow but as of now my currently measured distances are centering everything too far right. It seems I can't really hear the left side with the settings I'm currently using based off my measurements


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Add two clicks of delay to the [edit] far [edit] mid and tweet or reduce two clicks on the near mid and tweet. See if that pulls the vocals back towards the rear view.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So after some more tampering I think I got it PRETTY close to perfect. went for a drive with a friend in her corolla and was listening to some music. I couldn't handle the stock system. Rear speakers were killing me. Listening to my system now it sounds absolutely incredible!!!
The detail the staging/imaging and the impact. Listening to some supertramp at high volumes is amazing I've never heard my system sound like this. The Drums, the bass, the vocals all so powerful and at no point did it fall apart even at max volume. I can't believe it. Big thanks to you all for the help. I plan to do more critical listening tomorrow but as of now I'm very happy. There's a few things that still need addressing but ill post up again tomorrow. It's like having a brand new system!!! I didn't think my setup was capable of such levels of both sq(being my first goal always) and just pure clean output


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Curious about the details of tampering. 

You started the thread three weeks back and you are where you are, in three weeks. The difference in sound quality is night and day, right? Now imagine where you can be 3 months from now or a year down the line. Along the way you will have many jumps like the one you just experienced and the sound will keep getting better and every time you will feel, 'this is it, I've arrived'. It's all about the journey and not a destination per se. To keep improving the sound you just need to focus on what can be better, while enjoying what is good. This is the essence of tuning.

I look forward to the result of your critical listening at the current tune. Can you post a combined and separate L/R measurement as well?


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## percy072 (Feb 13, 2014)

tgotovac said:


> So after some more tampering I think I got it PRETTY close to perfect. went for a drive with a friend in her corolla and was listening to some music. I couldn't handle the stock system. Rear speakers were killing me. Listening to my system now it sounds absolutely incredible!!!


Interesting that the Alpine DSP has made such an improvement over using just the 80prs...I've thought about it (MS-8) etc, but this thread has me really considering adding one...I think what I've got now sounds pretty great but who knows how much I'm leaving "on the table", for all I know maybe it still sounds like ****...har!

Now that your a tuning expert...I'd be interested in taking a run up to TO someday and see


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

percy072 said:


> Interesting that the Alpine DSP has made such an improvement over using just the 80prs...


31 eq bands per side is a big step up from 16 a side. Resolution of +/- 0.5 db on the H800 is better than the +/- 1 db on the p-80. I think better resolution the TA as well. All in all, a totally different level of dsp.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> 31 eq bands per side is a big step up from 16 a side. Resolution of +/- 0.5 db on the H800 is better than the +/- 1 db on the p-80. I think better resolution the TA as well. All in all, a totally different level of dsp.


Beat me to it. 

Fully agree. The fact that you can control more l/r over the 80prs is a plus.


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

sqnut said:


> Bring 50 back up. Cut as follows:
> 
> 80hz on a narrow Q cut by 2db
> 
> ...


So assuming we are looking at a reproduction graph of what his phone is measuring with the source being pink noise. It doesn't indicate that. I am guessing the reason for the dramatic roll off in the top end is like the mics inability to capture that frequency range but what we do see is a drop at 16Khz. Why are we suggesting to diminish 16Khz further? The human ear hears equal energy at every octave (AKA Pink Noise) as the most even full spectrum sound. I noticed that car audio thinks that higher frequencies are the enemy or something because in the rest of the audio world we try to make what we are hearing as even across the entire usable audio spectrum. This isn't just a question specific to this post but in general. I noticed that most manufacturers incorporate a -3db switch on many tweeter crossovers. It makes sense that the manufacturers have tested their speakers anechoic and determined that where the emitted spectrum is flattest on their speakers that is what they are calling the "0" db point. It necessarily follows that they are making the -3 with the input being diminished so that the output is generally 3db lower in output compared to the average measured levels carried by the other drivers. Why on earth does it seem the standard in car audio is to have that kind of uneven frequency response? Could that be why the first thing folks do when they get in their car is reach for the treble and bass knobs to boost them. (low because their rigs don't produce anything below 80hz) Is this a way of subduing harsh tones which by the way are more typically a product of upper mid range (2khz-8khz) and typically nothing to do with anything beyond 12khz. Diminished higher frequencies will however cause what we hear to sound smoother albeit far less intelligible. It is kind of a psychoacoustic trick. Are we trying to compensate for reflections caused by the glass?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

RobERacer said:


> Are we trying to compensate for reflections caused by the glass?


Partly yes. Higher frequencies are more prone to reflections. In a car, 10-12% of sound we hear is direct sound. The rest is all early reflections. The ton of early reflections make the incident sound louder. In a car there is a big difference between measured loudness and perceived loudness ~500 hz and up. Extra content at 16khz makes the sound brittle.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

percy072 said:


> Interesting that the Alpine DSP has made such an improvement over using just the 80prs...I've thought about it (MS-8) etc, but this thread has me really considering adding one...I think what I've got now sounds pretty great but who knows how much I'm leaving "on the table", for all I know maybe it still sounds like ****...har!
> 
> Now that your a tuning expert...I'd be interested in taking a run up to TO someday and see


honestly, I bought the pioneer 80 because I needed a new HU and got a great deal on one brand new, I also wanted to learn about active setups and set one up myself. it was great for learning the basics and a cheap way to go active but I always wanted more DSP power so I saved up for an h800.more control over the system with a dsp for sure id say but im new to this still so im just learning! where abouts in Canada are you?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

went on a long drive today and did more listening to a bunch of different material. ive noticed the nicely recorded stuff sounds amazing while the not so well recorded music...well I can hear a difference. I basically only use apple lossless files so I know its not because of low bitrate or compression but just a poor recording. so far im still really enjoying the way everything is sounding right now. a lot of punch, snap, and kick to the sound and everything seems pretty well blended/balanced. in terms of sound only, its sounds very good but im still working on getting the vocals more centered. also I find my sub struggles a little bit with quicker more technical bass lines. I think that's an issue with the box though. ill post up some L/R and complete RTA measurements as soon as I have a little time to take some


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Higher frequencies are easily absorbed. 16kHz and above is of little importance with most music content, there's not much up there. Also these frequencies will be highly directional, even with a 1" driver. It's usually good to keep everything above 12kHz somewhat attenuated when sitting so close to the speakers as we do in cars.


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## percy072 (Feb 13, 2014)

tgotovac said:


> where abouts in Canada are you?


Grew up in Markham...but now I live in a small town South of Brantford.



tgotovac said:


> in terms of sound only, its sounds very good but im still working on getting the vocals more centered.


IDK...I've had things pretty centered with the 80prs but it always seemed to pull my attention to the right  seem to prefer the vocals a little more in front but I'm probably showing my inexperience on that one. Have an Alpine dealer in town and may just stop in.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

percy072 said:


> Grew up in Markham...but now I live in a small town South of Brantford.
> 
> 
> 
> IDK...I've had things pretty centered with the 80prs but it always seemed to pull my attention to the right  seem to prefer the vocals a little more in front but I'm probably showing my inexperience on that one. Have an Alpine dealer in town and may just stop in.



Brantford isnt too far form me. About 45 min away I'm actually in the Milton area if you know where that is. I've always found with the pioneer 80 auto tune it sets everything too far right and loves to boost frequencies. The imprint auto TA and auto eq actually did a much better job then the pioneer but its the fine tuning adjustments I made thanks to the help I've gotten from the guys on this thread that really helped dial it in.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> Higher frequencies are easily absorbed. 16kHz and above is of little importance with most music content, there's not much up there. Also these frequencies will be highly directional, even with a 1" driver. It's usually good to keep everything above 12kHz somewhat attenuated when sitting so close to the speakers as we do in cars.


Good point. There isn't much information in the 12-20khz range. It only contains the top end harmonics of the mid and upper midrange, there are no fundamentals here. 

There are two reasons why we roll off the highs say above ~ 5khz in the car. One is because of the effects of reflections as explained earlier. The second reason is that even in a room when you sit 14-15' from speakers, if you measure the FR at speaker level and then again at ear level, you will notice a roll off above ~ 8-10khz at the ear level response. These high frequencies are prone to absorption with materials like soft furniture, curtains, carpets etc and the fact that these hiogh frequencies are prone to a natural decay over the distance they travel. IIRC its something like 2-3 db for every 3 feet. Our barin uses this roll off in the highs to evaluate distance from the source of sound. 

In a car which has little or no absorption and where you sit 2-3" from the source of these frequencies, you aren't getting any absorption or natural roll off. That is why you taper this range. I hope that satisfies RobERacer .


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> went on a long drive today and did more listening to a bunch of different material. ive noticed the nicely recorded stuff sounds amazing while the not so well recorded music...well I can hear a difference. I basically only use apple lossless files so I know its not because of low bitrate or compression but just a poor recording. so far im still really enjoying the way everything is sounding right now. a lot of punch, snap, and kick to the sound and everything seems pretty well blended/balanced. in terms of sound only, its sounds very good but im still working on getting the vocals more centered. also I find my sub struggles a little bit with quicker more technical bass lines. I think that's an issue with the box though. ill post up some L/R and complete RTA measurements as soon as I have a little time to take some


A well setup system will highlight the difference between good and poor recordings. Centering the vocals is about centering 300-4khz using the L/R eq and the TA. Try lowering the mid to tweet xover a bit. I think you have it ~ 4khz, try 3khz. It will help a bit in raising the stage height. For the sub integration, what xover point are you using for the sub/mid and at what slope. IME integration of sub and mid is 40% timing and 60% getting a smooth response transfer between sub and mid in the octave above and below the xover point. To try something different, try the sub in a sealed box.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Current xover settings
Sub lpf- 80hz 18db
Mid hpf - 71hz 18db
Mid lpf - 4k 18db
Tweeter hpf - 4k 18db 

You recommend I bring my tweeters and mids down to 3k?
Also really considering the sub sealed. I can get the JL sealed box on its own for 150$ just wondering if its really worth it


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> Current xover settings
> Sub lpf- 80hz 18db
> Mid hpf - 71hz 18db
> Mid lpf - 4k 18db
> ...


Try the following and see how it sounds.

Sub LP and Mid HP at 60hz both drivers on 24db slope, you can even try 36db on sub and 24 db on mid

Mid LP and Tweet HP at 3khz both drivers on 24 db slope. This is something we should have done right at the start. See if this:
1. Tightens up the bass.
2. Raises stage height a bit.
3. Helps with focus.

By changing the xover points and slopes you are changing the response slightly around the xover points. Listen for what changes.

If you have the tools and the skill I'm sure it would be cheaper to make one. You can make 2-3 options of slightly different sizes and see which sounds best. Manufacturers boxes are normally on the smaller side. For a 12" I find a sealed box 1.25-1.4 works the best, depends a bit on driver specs too.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Currently running a 12" w7. Ill try those settings and report back. Just heading into work so it'll have to wait till tonight. If I had tools I could Probably figure out a sealed box pretty easily. Would it make a big difference? I know there a loss of output but I'm not too worried about it as this sub is too loud as is. Also I should mention this ported box isn't the greatest. At least I don't think it is


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Yes, keeping everything else constant the sub output will fall a little in a sealed box. You'll just need to give your ears a couple of days to settle into the new sound.


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

tgotovac said:


> honestly, I bought the pioneer 80 because I needed a new HU and got a great deal on one brand new, I also wanted to learn about active setups and set one up myself. it was great for learning the basics and a cheap way to go active but I always wanted more DSP power so I saved up for an h800.more control over the system with a dsp for sure id say but im new to this still so im just learning! where abouts in Canada are you?


Toronto. I see you are as well.


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

sqnut said:


> Partly yes. Higher frequencies are more prone to reflections. In a car, 10-12% of sound we hear is direct sound. The rest is all early reflections. The ton of early reflections make the incident sound louder. In a car there is a big difference between measured loudness and perceived loudness ~500 hz and up. Extra content at 16khz makes the sound brittle.


Hmm. Are you sure it is that frequency zone causing the problem? It is usually not!


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

Hanatsu said:


> Higher frequencies are easily absorbed. 16kHz and above is of little importance with most music content, there's not much up there. Also these frequencies will be highly directional, even with a 1" driver. It's usually good to keep everything above 12kHz somewhat attenuated when sitting so close to the speakers as we do in cars.


I love this theory and that was exactly what I thought it was. One of the most renouned audio engineers in the world today is this guy Rupert Neve. He is a pro audio equipment designer. He has published much regarding his findings regarding this very subject. His theories are commonly adhered to by most of us in the pro audio community. Why don't buoy check out some of what he has to say. You might change your mind.


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

Brittle sound. I would suggest to you that if things sound Brittle or gritty the problem is not likely frequency dependant. That zone of frequencies (+15khz) is where sound is vibrating at the highest rates that we can hear. With that minute details regarding sonics are most notably apparent in the highest range of human hearing. What does that mean? Well things that are not noticeable that are full spectrum will be most noticeable there. As an example if you ever get to hear the difference between a high end analogue recording and a high end digital recording you Will probably need to listen to it on a system that reproduces frequencies flat to at least 18khz. That isn't to say it can't be heard at lower frequencies but it is much less obvious. Same with certain types of distortion. Also that fully explains why it is not important to car audio enthusiasts to not lower their bit rates by doing multiple da/ad conversions. If you listen with full frequency responce these conversions become very apparent and consiquently are often why things would sound brittle (distortion in this case). Not having full frequency responce is a good way to hide these deficiencies though so I will give you that. The only thing is it negates the need to spend the money on high end audio when you will get virtually equal performance from some of the cheapest stuff.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

RobERacer said:


> I love this theory and that was exactly what I thought it was. One of the most renouned audio engineers in the world today is this guy Rupert Neve. He is a pro audio equipment designer. He has published much regarding his findings regarding this very subject. His theories are commonly adhered to by most of us in the pro audio community. Why don't buoy check out some of what he has to say. You might change your mind.





RobERacer said:


> Brittle sound. I would suggest to you that if things sound Brittle or gritty the problem is not likely frequency dependant. That zone of frequencies (+15khz) is where sound is vibrating at the highest rates that we can hear. With that minute details regarding sonics are most notably apparent in the highest range of human hearing. What does that mean? Well things that are not noticeable that are full spectrum will be most noticeable there. As an example if you ever get to hear the difference between a high end analogue recording and a high end digital recording you Will probably need to listen to it on a system that reproduces frequencies flat to at least 18khz. That isn't to say it can't be heard at lower frequencies but it is much less obvious. Same with certain types of distortion. Also that fully explains why it is not important to car audio enthusiasts to not lower their bit rates by doing multiple da/ad conversions. If you listen with full frequency responce these conversions become very apparent and consiquently are often why things would sound brittle (distortion in this case). Not having full frequency responce is a good way to hide these deficiencies though so I will give you that. The only thing is it negates the need to spend the money on high end audio when you will get virtually equal performance from some of the cheapest stuff.


:bowdown: there you go we bow down to your superior knowledge. Seeing that your posts are voluminous while being tough to decipher and understand. Hence, you must be right. BTW response has a 's' not a 'c'.


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

Righ. So not explaining oneself and not making any spelling errors makes one more knowledgeable then. Cool!!!


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

Btw. Just so we understand the reason for detail in a logical debate is because it leaves the door more open for ones logic to be questioned. It reveals ones thoughts far more clearly and doesn't leave as many opportunities for one to "backtrack" on their statements. In short I am being open an vulnerable with this just as much as I am talking about this the way I understand it. You will notice I asked questions before I said anything. Your diversionary statement about my spelling is a clear indication that you are offended at what I had to say and does not show an intent for you to share on a non malicious level. Was that what you intended?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

RobERacer said:


> You might change your mind.


Regarding what? That 16kHz and up isn't as important?

On a side note... I remember a fullrange driver I had which had enormous amounts of 3rd order distortion at 5,6kHz with the volume pumped up a little. The distortion propagated as directional 16.8kHz sizzle, it was probably the most annoying thing I've listened to in years.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Here's a few samples of random music from different genres;


















Even if you don't have any hearing damage, human ears have very low sensitivity above 16kHz. The distance to the sound source also matters, it's common knowledge that we want to tilt the response curve downwards in a small space such as a car.


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

Hanatsu said:


> Regarding what? That 16kHz and up isn't as important?
> 
> On a side note... I remember a fullrange driver I had which had enormous amounts of 3rd order distortion at 5,6kHz with the volume pumped up a little. The distortion propagated as directional 16.8kHz sizzle, it was probably the most annoying thing I've listened to in years.


Exactly. The problem wasn't 16khz. It was distortion which in this case was caused by the driver. If your car is lacking in power due to a clogged fuel filter you could help the problem by adding nitrous but wouldn't it be better to change the fuel filter? Reducing the spl of a frequency set in order to disguise a problem isn't eliminating the problem it is just hiding it and as a side effect at great cost to overall fidelity. As a last resort sure but it's not really an ideal situation.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

RobERacer said:


> Exactly. The problem wasn't 16khz. It was distortion which in this case was caused by the driver. If your car is lacking in power due to a clogged fuel filter you could help the problem by adding nitrous but wouldn't it be better to change the fuel filter? Reducing the spl of a frequency set in order to disguise a problem isn't eliminating the problem it is just hiding it and as a side effect at great cost to overall fidelity. As a last resort sure but it's not really an ideal situation.


...and that wasn't the point at all. I was referring to having 16kHz too high will cause listening fatigue in a small space. The same distortion while I tried them out in my home audio system was barely audible due to the room absorption.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

RobERacer said:


> Righ. So not explaining oneself and not making any spelling errors makes one more knowledgeable then. Cool!!!


I think both Han and I explained our position adequately. If however there is some part you don't understand, ask.



RobERacer said:


> Brittle sound. I would suggest to you that if things sound Brittle or gritty the problem is not likely frequency dependant. That zone of frequencies (+15khz) is where sound is vibrating at the highest rates that we can hear. With that minute details regarding sonics are most notably apparent in the highest range of human hearing. What does that mean? Well things that are not noticeable that are full spectrum will be most noticeable there. As an example if you ever get to hear the difference between a high end analogue recording and a high end digital recording you Will probably need to listen to it on a system that reproduces frequencies flat to at least 18khz. That isn't to say it can't be heard at lower frequencies but it is much less obvious. Same with certain types of distortion. Also that fully explains why it is not important to car audio enthusiasts to not lower their bit rates by doing multiple da/ad conversions. If you listen with full frequency responce these conversions become very apparent and consiquently are often why things would sound brittle (distortion in this case). Not having full frequency responce is a good way to hide these deficiencies though so I will give you that. The only thing is it negates the need to spend the money on high end audio when you will get virtually equal performance from some of the cheapest stuff.


Brittle and gritty are two different things. Brittle is when you have too much transparency in the sound, it's too open at the top end. Definitely centred around 15-16khz. Gritty is when the sound has too much chaff in it typically too much at 800, 1.25 and 4 khz.

Distortion will be most audible in the 1-4khz range where the ears sensitivity is the highest. NOT at 15-16khz where the sensitivity is falling off a cliff. When I talk about brittle sound I am NOT talking about distortion. 

You are taking home audio nomenclature and blindly applying it to a car. In your living room you want a system that can play flat to 20 khz. But even here the response will be flat when measured AT SPEAKER LEVEL. With you 12-14 feet from the speakers, if you measure the response at your ear there will be a roll of in the highs for reasons already explained. A car is a totally different room and you're sitting 3' from the speakers. In a car, a flat response up to 16 khz means the sound will the thin, tinny and crappy. Time to pump up the sub and you now have the classic two note wonder sound......boom chick, boom chick.


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

Hanatsu said:


> Here's a few samples of random music from different genres;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These are snap shots of musical pieces. Yes, often we like to hear bass but if you played that back on your system with the 3db depleated tweeters the graph that you are looking at actually changes to reflect that. The waveform would show as everything above the crossover point for those tweeters would be 3db less than that. More than that we need to add to that the fact that your head unit is probably lossing a decibel after 16k and so is your amp and oh btw your speakers usually start rolling off after 12khz and oh btw you are running unbalanced signal cable which is loosing some too. What's left? You need to take more away? Really? That is what we think is fidelic? I think it kind of sounds a lot like listening with my hands over my ears. Why would I pay thousands of dollars for that?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

RobERacer said:


> His theories are commonly adhered to by most of us in the pro audio community. Why don't buoy check out some of what he has to say. You might change your mind.


Consider the following room dynamics.

1. Pro Audio:
Size of room - Huge to infinite
Revebrant Room - No
Distance to Speakers - Far Field
Early reflections - low
Late Reflections - low to med depending on venue

2. Home Audio:
Size of Room - Med to large
Revebrant Room - Largely No
Distance to speakers - 12-15' i.e. far field
Early reflections - Some
Late Reflections - Some

3. Car Audio:
Size of room - Sardine can
Revebrant Room - YES!!!
Distance to Speakers - 2-4 feet i.e. near field
Early Reflects - TONS! 90% of the sound in a car is from early reflections
Late Reflections - Whats that?

Basic common sense would tell you that what applies in Pro Audio or even home audio may not apply in car audio.


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

It is true that high frequency energy looses it's energy I air. The more the distance the more air and consiquentially the more energy is absorbed so the farther away you are the less high frequencies you actually hear. I actually equate this more to studio control rooms than living rooms and flat to 20khz is the measure not just 16khz. 16khz would be considered inadequate. When one is sitting behind a console listening to the speakers sitting on the meter bridge in a studio the high frequency loss is virtually no different than what it would be naturally in a car. If the speakers
actually sounded flat with the 3db attenuation then I would have to agree but that is not the case.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

RobERacer said:


> It is true that high frequency energy looses it's energy I air. The more the distance the more air and consiquentially the more energy is absorbed so the farther away you are the less high frequencies you actually hear. I actually equate this more to studio control rooms than living rooms and flat to 20khz is the measure not just 16khz. 16khz would be considered inadequate. When one is sitting behind a console listening to the speakers sitting on the meter bridge in a studio the high frequency loss is virtually no different than what it would be naturally in a car. If the speakers
> actually sounded flat with the 3db attenuation then I would have to agree but that is not the case.


In the studio:

Is the ceiling 12 inches from the top of your head?
Are the walls / boundries 2-3 feet from your ears?
Are walls made of glass?
Are the speakers at different axis to your ears?
Is the studio highly reflective?
What is the ratio of direct to reflected sound?

We can go on and on.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

RobERacer said:


> ...running unbalanced signal cable which is loosing some too. What's left? You need to take more away? Really? That is what we think is fidelic? I think it kind of sounds a lot like listening with my hands over my ears. Why would I pay thousands of dollars for that?


Seriously? Now you talking about HF loss in cables? It will simply not happen. You're still missing the point, car audio is much different than pro audio. 16kHz in my car will sound about equal in volume to that of 12kHz, the measured response will show 16kHz attenuated though. This is due a small ROOM. Same trending in headphones. With home audio in large rooms you want a flat response all the way to 20kHz. 

It's not like I'm inexperienced with this, neither is sqnut.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

RobERacer said:


> When one is sitting behind a console listening to the speakers sitting on the meter bridge in a studio the high frequency loss is virtually no different than what it would be naturally in a car. If the speakers
> actually sounded flat with the 3db attenuation then I would have to agree but that is not the case.


Not the same. At all.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sqnut said:


> In the studio:
> 
> Is the ceiling 12 inches from the top of your head?
> Are the walls / boundries 2-3 feet from your ears?
> ...


Please do xD


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Not even my headphones sound very attenuated at 16kHz and look at the response;


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Double post...


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

sqnut said:


> Consider the following room dynamics.
> 
> 1. Pro Audio:
> Size of room - Huge to infinite
> ...



Actually in pro audio unless the performance is outdoors sonic reflections can very much be problematic and we have very expensive high tech tools that we regularly employ to deal with that. Consider a recording control room with the glass walls so one can see the recording floor. Also the console it's self is more reflective at high frequencies than many of the surfaces in a car. Reflective glass isn't new either however by the time.the reflection arrives at your ear there isn't much at 16 or 18khz to concern themselves with. That energy dissipates real easy. 12khz is yet another storey. In cars we often have cloth seats, headliners, door panels and carpeted floors that all aid I. Absorption of stray high frequencies. What I tend to hear more than anything are resonance problems in the mid and low mid range that are far more problematic because in order to attenuate their energy one.usually has to take very wide groupings of frequencies and attenuate those because eq seems largely limited in most car audio systems. Of course the general loss of energy in that range after trying to fix that problem is going to make the largely flat frequency responce in the top end seem accentuated when the real problem is the loss of other parts of the spectrum. Also I am sure it is different for almost every car but has there ever been a study into what frequencies are actually resolved at the head of the occupants after they are reflected (and refracted) off of the various surfaces of a car's interior? Why I ask is this. If someone is sitting next to you talking what do you hear? Their voice is less directional than any speaker. Do they sound thin and crappy? You are in fact exciting the air in the same space with an acoustical source instead of a more synthetic source. Hmm.


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

Hanatsu said:


> Seriously? Now you talking about HF loss in cables? It will simply not happen. You're still missing the point, car audio is much different than pro audio. 16kHz in my car will sound about equal in volume to that of 12kHz, the measured response will show 16kHz attenuated though. This is due a small ROOM. Same trending in headphones. With home audio in large rooms you want a flat response all the way to 20kHz.
> 
> It's not like I'm inexperienced with this, neither is sqnut.


Really? Yes they in fact do sir! More so with unbalanced than balanced lines which is in part why balanced is such a huge upgrade.


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

Hanatsu said:


> Not even my headphones sound very attenuated at 16kHz and look at the response;


Are these reference phones?


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

We were talking about high end audio. My point was that it includes 18 and 20khz and you have told me nothing that shows validity of needing to negate it in car audio in general. Yes, acoustical treatment to deal with as much stay high frequencies as possible is obviously in order but negate them at the source? My finger hurts so cut it off. Why not just take out the sliver?


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

sqnut said:


> In the studio:
> 
> Is the ceiling 12 inches from the top of your head?
> Are the walls / boundries 2-3 feet from your ears?
> ...


A small issue but audio is audio. What you hear is what you hear. Doesn't matter where you are. The challenges are different. Yes, but it isn't foreign. What I heard when I got my car from the installer was that the high frequencies that I was hearing were not even with the rest of the audio spectrum. Much to my dismay I eq'd them back in but it was sounding forced. Becuase I actually know what I am looking at (unlike the average car audio purchaser) when I look at processor settings I noted some serious attenuation of the output to the high frequency amp. of course it is going to require less power than lower frequencies but it was suspect. It did not sound even close to right. The sad part is that this is normal for the entire car audio industry and this seems what folks think is what it should be. I have since gone through all of the settings and 're eq'd the entire thing. Now it sounds natural. Similar to myTannoy dual concentric reference monitors that I take with me to various jobs. I did the same things I would have done setting up any sound system I ever have. I have done hundreds! I didn't expect them to do any fine audio adjustments that we could consider artistic but it should have been pretty close to flat and not sound like an AM radio with hyped low end. Focal KRX2'S. I am sure focal's engineers would have been floored.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

RobE I think most of us understand where you are coming from, but can we cut down on the overly-technical pissing contest? This thread was and incredibly productive tuning journey for 9 pages; please don't rabbit trail it into oblivion. The OP was really making headway and learning by listening along the way.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

RobERacer said:


> Really? Yes they in fact do sir! More so with unbalanced than balanced lines which is in part why balanced is such a huge upgrade.


Balanced is good for canceling out external induced noise together with cables using TP configs. It's not a "huge" upgrade unless you got noise issues, it's not widely used within car audio either, even if it would be a good idea in a car. There exist no HF loss below 20kHz if you haven't coiled up your RCA like an inductor, even if you manage that, the effect would be neglectable.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

RobERacer said:


> Are these reference phones?


AKG Q701. A great deal of headphones looks like this.

Edit; Sorry to the OP, the thread got completely derailed. I'm not arguing any more here ^.^


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Don't worry about it. still learning tons here


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

sqnut said:


> Try the following and see how it sounds.
> 
> Sub LP and Mid HP at 60hz both drivers on 24db slope, you can even try 36db on sub and 24 db on mid
> 
> ...


I'm just worried about how well my mids would do being crosses at 60hz with the power that's on them. Is that something to worry about? And if I went 24 on mids and 36 on the sub would I have a phase issue there?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

tgotovac said:


> I'm just worried about how well my mids would do being crosses at 60hz with the power that's on them. Is that something to worry about? And if I went 24 on mids and 36 on the sub would I have a phase issue there?


No you won't have a phase issue

Much steeper slopes then where your at now.


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

94VG30DE said:


> RobE I think most of us understand where you are coming from, but can we cut down on the overly-technical pissing contest? This thread was and incredibly productive tuning journey for 9 pages; please don't rabbit trail it into oblivion. The OP was really making headway and learning by listening along the way.


It was very disheartening that it was automatically assumed that I was just being belligerent. I was actually making an honest attempt to bring understanding to some very specific, important and Oh BTW totally relevant points that actually address the fact that some practices are actually based on methods developed from working with the functionally outdated and specificationally inferior equipment of the past. It only starts with why the Full Audio Spectrum is important and what that reveals. For me I have the level of sonic that I kind of tried to explain at home as well as at work. Of course I want that level of sonic in my car and it is COMPLETELY possible and relatively easily doable but not using outdated methodologies. That was where I was going with this. In order to make my car work I had to undo some of what was done "The old way" (now that I figured out why they did it that way that is) by my more than well meaning installers. By the way they have won many awards for their work over the years. These aren't just any installation guys and I wouldn't just go to anyone otherwise I would be negating my own level of knowledge and expertise. I went to them because they knew about stuff I didn't. The actual installation side that is. Oh, It looks stock but is far from it. Of course I was going to include an understanding of who, what, where and why so that we weren't treating people like idiots. In effect telling them "here it is, so do it just because I say so". Information empowers folks to do their own research and understand for themselves. If they are this deeply involved they aren't stupid and can understand. Where I come from that is just how we function. "Don't just believe me. I might have it wrong (even if only in part). Check it out for yourself."


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

Beckerson1 said:


> No you won't have a phase issue
> 
> Much steeper slopes then where your at now.


You're just shifting your 3db down point lower and allowing less low mid to be produced by the subs. If anything it should make it more phase coherent because you are separating them more. If you bump your level on your subs though it will make that more pronounced as there is little overlap driver to driver.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok perfect ill try the recommended xover points tomorrow. Also RobE what shop did you get your install done at?


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

KHF Markham


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So you know Alan then. That's where I got my dsp. He really knows his stuff.


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

I should point out that the tone they got was very similar to what the head unit natively does on its own. When you weed through all of the added adjustments it undoes most of the stuff that I found odd. As an example when I turned the "Position" adjustment off. The crossover gains went to balanced and it was right where it belonged. It engages that feature automatically too so you actually have to defeat it after the fact. Flat eq was in fact pretty flat but unless you knew that about the DEH 80prs you would be wondering what is up for sure.


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## RobERacer (Sep 15, 2014)

Great guy. He does and like I say they do great work. We will probably be doing Dsp in the spring. I want to find a head unit with digital outputs on it though. Converting to analogue and back is going to make it harsh sounding. Also I want to ditch the digital amp on the mid highs. Not sure if we can fit the Focal under the seat though. Also I don't have the cash right now so that has to wait too.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I've talked to him plenty about the focal amps and he honestly told me straight up they're not worth the cash. Biggest difference is the dsp. Made a huge difference to me. I've heard plenty of cars he's done and they all sound great but I'm more of a DIY kinda guy. His work is good though probably the best in the gta by far


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> I'm just worried about how well my mids would do being crosses at 60hz with the power that's on them. Is that something to worry about? And if I went 24 on mids and 36 on the sub would I have a phase issue there?


No there won't be a phase issue, at least not an audible one. I have my sub on 36db and the mid on 24 db with both drivers crossed at 50hz. It is very common to drive the mid bass through it's Fs point. The Fs on your mid is 65 so crossing it at 60 is fine. Even with the electronics xover set at 60 the acoustic crossover will be higher.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

sqnut said:


> No there won't be a phase issue, at least not an audible one. I have my sub on 36db and the mid on 24 db with both drivers crossed at 50hz. It is very common to drive the mid bass through it's Fs point. The Fs on your mid is 65 so crossing it at 60 is fine. Even with the electronics xover set at 60 the acoustic crossover will be higher.


Ok perfect! Ill give it a shot tomorrow and do some listening. I was mainly worried about crossing them below the fs but you've reassured me! Ill report back and let you know how it's sounding. Ill also take an rta measurement and post up. Stay tuned. And thanks for the help so far


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

RobERacer said:


> I should point out that the tone they got was very similar to what the head unit natively does on its own. When you weed through all of the added adjustments it undoes most of the stuff that I found odd. As an example when I turned the "Position" adjustment off. The crossover gains went to balanced and it was right where it belonged. It engages that feature automatically too so you actually have to defeat it after the fact. Flat eq was in fact pretty flat but unless you knew that about the DEH 80prs you would be wondering what is up for sure.












When you turned the Position off, you disabled TA and maybe you got back the holy grail of balanced lines but you just tossed any hope of getting staging in the car cause now you're listening to speakers at different distances with the entire sound being smeared to your side. Does that sound right to you?

If you want your car to sound like your Tannoys learn to tune, that is the bottom line. Like others have mentioned this thread is about the OP's journey let's not crap it up. Why don't you start another thread and we can have all the discussions there.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

gregerst22 said:


> One thing that I've learned is that Active tuning car audio is NOT easy, especially 3-way. If it was we'd all be experts. I see a lot of guys give up and go back to passives or worst. Myself I kept plugging away at it even through all the frustration when I thought I would never get it right.


I guess you don't wanna tune my 10ch active system then? xD

Having measurement gear will make everything easier, optimizing a 3-way front by ear takes time...


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

RobERacer said:


> A small issue but audio is audio. What you hear is what you hear. Doesn't matter where you are. The challenges are different. Yes, but it isn't foreign. What I heard when I got my car from the installer was that the high frequencies that I was hearing were not even with the rest of the audio spectrum. Much to my dismay I eq'd them back in but it was sounding forced. Becuase I actually know what I am looking at (unlike the average car audio purchaser) when I look at processor settings I noted some serious attenuation of the output to the high frequency amp. of course it is going to require less power than lower frequencies but it was suspect. It did not sound even close to right. The sad part is that this is normal for the entire car audio industry and this seems what folks think is what it should be. I have since gone through all of the settings and 're eq'd the entire thing. Now it sounds natural. Similar to myTannoy dual concentric reference monitors that I take with me to various jobs. I did the same things I would have done setting up any sound system I ever have. I have done hundreds! I didn't expect them to do any fine audio adjustments that we could consider artistic but it should have been pretty close to flat and not sound like an AM radio with hyped low end. Focal KRX2'S. I am sure focal's engineers would have been floored.


It was a fun discussion until I read that sentence: 
"I did the same things I would have done setting up any sound system I ever have. *I have done hundreds!*" 
You lost me then... 

Kelvin


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> Having measurement gear will make everything easier, optimizing a 3-way front by ear takes time...


Which is why one would measure to set up the basics and then optimize by ear.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

question regarding the recommened crossover points, will i need to reverse the phase on any drivers as with my current xover settings i have the mids reversed 180degrees(using all 18db slopes) but switching to all 24db slopes should i keep all my phase settings to 0 or will i need to reverse my mids or anything?


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

The only way to know that is to try it and find out. In-car phase is going to be different than paper design, so you will have to listen/measure.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok sounds good ill try it. I guess I'll be listening for lack of mid bass/ sub bass? And it would probably look really weird on my rta app?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> question regarding the recommened crossover points, will i need to reverse the phase on any drivers as with my current xover settings i have the mids reversed 180degrees(using all 18db slopes) but switching to all 24db slopes should i keep all my phase settings to 0 or will i need to reverse my mids or anything?


For now keep the polarity like you had it when you did the TA. For later we will re-do the TA, only this time with all drivers in same polarity. That's my bad. 

Just move the xover points and slopes, don't worry you won't drown......don't over think the issue.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok so I'll leave all my phase as is then with the mids reversed


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So upon changing my slopes to 24db and crossing my mids/tweeters at 3.2k(I don't have 3k so it was either 3.2k or 2.8k) I've noticed right away my top end became more bright. Is there a reason for this?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Messing with crossovers without knowing how the acoustic response looks isn't recommended. The electrical crossover settings doesn't equal the acoustic crossover points/slopes most of the time. 

You must have altered the relative phase of the drivers and therefore affected the summing around the crossover. A 24dB/oct Linkwitz-Riley will sum flat and they are often recommended for that reason. Again it's how the acoustic response looks that matters, not the electrical settings. I've said it a million times; optimizing crossovers fully by ear is almost impossible. Having said that, there's no reason why you can't experiment with the settings, doing it with measurements would be a lot easier though.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> Messing with crossovers without knowing how the acoustic response looks isn't recommended. The electrical crossover settings doesn't equal the acoustic crossover points/slopes most of the time.
> 
> You must have altered the relative phase of the drivers and therefore affected the summing around the crossover. A 24dB/oct Linkwitz-Riley will sum flat and they are often recommended for that reason. Again it's how the acoustic response looks that matters, not the electrical settings. I've said it a million times; optimizing crossovers fully by ear is almost impossible. Having said that, there's no reason why you can't experiment with the settings, doing it with measurements would be a lot easier though.


There's a method to my madness......hiopefully Let's see.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> So upon changing my slopes to 24db and crossing my mids/tweeters at 3.2k(I don't have 3k so it was either 3.2k or 2.8k) I've noticed right away my top end became more bright. Is there a reason for this?


Cut 0.5 db at 2.5, 1.5 db at 3.2 khz and 0.5 db at 4khz. The roll off from the tweeter is starting lower with the xover at 3.2 i/o 4. Listen to it after making the cuts. How the change of xovers affect the lows? 

24 db slopes are good from a phase standpoint. I'm not much of a believer of phase coherence in a car, but I will grant that 24db slopes sound the 'cleanest'.

Normally one would do the xover / slopes right at the beginning, but I jumped straight into eq. The acoustics of the car can change the xover points that you set electronically. So with your xover set at 3.2 the actual (acoustic) xover point could be above or below this. I am explaining this cause Han brought it up and I don't want you over thinking things for now.

For now you don't have any way to measure this, so don't fret it. Just focus on the sound for now. If something is wrong you should hear it when you pit the cars sound vs your ref sound. 

Eventually it's about improving each part so that the whole is better.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

ok ill give those cuts a try tonight and report back. ill also take a measurment and post it up and compare it to my most recent measurement with my 18db slopes. interms of how the new slopes nd xover points have affected my low end, im noticed a slight decrease in bass, most likly because my sub is down at 60hz now vs 80 but the sound is alot tigher in the low area which i really like.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So this is my most recent measurement using the new slopes and xovers. It seems from 5-8k I have quiet the increase. I've cut it down a bit more but I think I need to turn the tweeter level down a 1db or so. 




The sub is extremely well blended. Best I've gotten so far. I can't hear it at all coming from behind me. It's awesome


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Don't know how much you've cut the 5-8khz range after you did the rta. Based purely on the RTA I would cut 5 and 6 khz by 2 and 2.5db, then cut 8 in 1 db steps. As you cut at 8 the 'shouty' vocals will start sounding more natural. It is the frequency that has the deepest cut on my eq and on all cars that I've tuned. Keep cutting 1 db at a time and listening. Keep going till the vocals lose the 'shouty' edge. Now if you go further you will lose dynamics in the sound, back up a half db and you should be good. Post a rta reading after you do this to see how much you had to cut to get it sounding good. 

After you do the above see if you still feel the need to cut the tweeter level.

[edit] If you can't seem to get the cut at 8khz just right, its either too much or not enough, go back and cut 6khz by 0.5-1db and then try 8 again. 6-8khz is to tame shouty vocals [edit]


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

ok ill give that a try today and do some more listening


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

A question about my sub xover. So it's lpf'd at 60 with a 24db slope but I also have my subsonic on at 30hz 24db. Seems like my sub isn't doing a whole lot. Should I lower my subsonic down to 20hz maybe? Or is it ok as is?


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

Is it possible that dip at 63 is cancellation at the crossover between sub and mid? I saw a similar thing that was corrected by TA. It might help to move the lpf higher to 70 or so. How do you get two "63"'s on that scale?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Lol that's strange just noticed that. Should say 32. Just opened the app up and it has 32 there. Must have been some glitch when I took the screen shot or something


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> A question about my sub xover. So it's lpf'd at 60 with a 24db slope but I also have my subsonic on at 30hz 24db. Seems like my sub isn't doing a whole lot. Should I lower my subsonic down to 20hz maybe? Or is it ok as is?


Bring the sub sonic down to 20. Turn it off and see how that sounds. The sub isn't supposed to do much. Me thinks you're missing some of the bass you had earlier. When you trim out the 5-8khz you'll get a slightly greater perception of low end.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

iamstubb said:


> Is it possible that dip at 63 is cancellation at the crossover between sub and mid?


I think the dip is at 80 and it's eq that way on purpose.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

ive noticed a slight decrease in bass output for sure but my sub is also alot more blended now almost cant even tell its there but the lows are being filled in for sure. really liking how blended it sounds now


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

sqnut said:


> I think the dip is at 80 and it's eq that way on purpose.


I was looking at it on my phone so I missed one bar. Why would you want to de-emphasize 80? Isn't that a strong point or perception for "bottom", Cello, bass and low percussion? Thinking about the ELC curves.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

iamstubb said:


> I was looking at it on my phone so I missed one bar. Why would you want to de-emphasize 80? Isn't that a strong point or perception for "bottom", Cello, bass and low percussion? Thinking about the ELC curves.


50-60hz is the rumble and mass on the bottom end of a stand up bass for example. 100 hz gives the bass its energy or fizz. Harmonics up around 600-2khz give it the 'snap'. You need these three ranges in the right balance. Keeping the ELC in mind the response at 50-60 to 200 will be a downward slope. 

Within this there are some frequencies like 80 and 200 that make the low end heavier yes, but also make it fat and bloated. Without suitable cuts here that low end which should have a slightly tactile rumble with fizz and snap, will sound dull and fat. 

If you have an eq try cutting at 80 and 200hz and see what happens.


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

I have miniDSP. I will try that suggestion for kicks. I was thinking of re-doing my EQ using an appropriate ELC as a house curve to target just to see what would happen. Right now it came out quite "warm" because I am high in the 200-1K range. But I don't want to hijack so I'll hit you guys up at another time. Just listening, learning and asking a few questions here.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

It's a tuning thread and I don't mind some banter if you have any questions. But It's the OP's thread and his call


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

We've had plenty of drama already!:fireman:


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

iamstubb said:


> I was thinking of re-doing my EQ using an appropriate ELC as a house curve to target...


Imo, not a good idea. Tried that and it was horrible, thinking mainly of everything above 4-5kHz. You want that on a downward slope by approximately 3-5dB/oct. The mastering have already been done in the recording that takes this into account. We mainly use these tilted target responses because of the environment.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

The ELC is a good ref till about 4khz imho.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

iamstubb said:


> We've had plenty of drama already!:fireman:


....lol


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

OK, I'll bite,

Here is what I am working with at the moment. You can almost guess how it sounds.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

iamstubb said:


> OK, I'll bite,
> 
> Here is what I am working with at the moment. You can almost guess how it sounds.


Whops... A little "warm" eh?


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## Old Skewl (May 30, 2011)

Excuse the ignorance, but what is ELC. I've seen it posted in the target curve thread and now this thread. I googled it and I still can't figure it out.


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

Sound levels that are perceived as equal in loudness to the listener. It reflects how sensitive we are to different frequencies. (Edit: A Phon is the dB reading at 1K. You can see how it changes based on overall loudness.)


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## Old Skewl (May 30, 2011)

Ok! Thanks! I have seen that reference before, just didn't realize that was ELC.


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> Whops... A little "warm" eh?


Sure is, but it also seems that the car absorbs a lot of sound. The front staging and sound of vocals is real nice to me, and I was trying to work around from there and this is where I ended up. But I changed some things around so I am going to start over, back with re-setting gains on the amps, stripping away all the EQ but keeping the TA. When I get to it, I'll start another thread with before and after shots.

Also my hearing is not that great above 15K so I think that may have something to do with it as well.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

sqnut said:


> It's a tuning thread and I don't mind some banter if you have any questions. But It's the OP's thread and his call


Everyone should feel free to ask questions!! This thread was started so I could learn something new and I don't mind if others would like to learn as well!


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

iamstubb said:


> Sure is, but it also seems that the car absorbs a lot of sound. The front staging and sound of vocals is real nice to me, and I was trying to work around from there and this is where I ended up. But I changed some things around so I am going to start over, back with re-setting gains on the amps, stripping away all the EQ but keeping the TA. When I get to it, I'll start another thread with before and after shots.
> 
> Also my hearing is not that great above 15K so I think that may have something to do with it as well.


In my experience, if something looks bad on an FR plot and the one posted it says it sounds good anyway, it's always room for improvements 

Let me just begin with asking, how are you measuring? Full system? Noise/RTA or Sweep? By looking at the graph I'd lower everything from 200-1000Hz by 8dB and "boost" everything 1500-8000Hz by the same amount. Dunno if you mentioned it but how are your system setup?


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> In my experience, if something looks bad on an FR plot and the one posted it says it sounds good anyway, it's always room for improvements
> 
> Let me just begin with asking, how are you measuring? Full system? Noise/RTA or Sweep? By looking at the graph I'd lower everything from 200-1000Hz by 8dB and "boost" everything 1500-8000Hz by the same amount. Dunno if you mentioned it but how are your system setup?


Sounding good is relative to what it came from, and better is where it will go.

I have both TrueRTA and REW on a PC with the Dayton IMM6 mic. In REW I calibrated the sound card using loopback, then used the mic with calibration file loaded to send a test sweep through the aux input on the HU. But I didn't calibrate with an SPL meter.

I tested each driver individually and tried to smooth using REW EQ and parametric filters loaded into the miniDSP. Then looked at overall measurements and used the pre-crossover parametric filters to try to smooth the overall sound. But I got carried away working on each driver without paying much attention to the entire sum. So this is where it ended up. I think I can use a shelf filters to make your recommended adjustments.

Sub band-passed @30-70 Hz, Door 6x9 band passed @70-250 Hz, Dash Coaxial HP @250 Hz. Rear deck, HP @70Hz, almost inaudible from the front because I didn't like the distraction, but I have kids in the back that like music too.

I have been playing with grounds and using high versus low level inputs on the amps to deal with some odd noise and non-linear volume control that is traced to the PAC adapter. It isn't alternator/electric power steering or AC. Just some weird, occasional sound. The PAC adapter isn't the best, but it lets me bypass the OEM amp. I think I have that cured now so I will re-tune.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

iamstubb said:


> OK, I'll bite,
> 
> Here is what I am working with at the moment. You can almost guess how it sounds.


I'm gonna spectate this one with interest. Save this setting and then go with what Han suggests. See where you land up. Then A/B between this setting and the re-tuned one.


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

Hopefully this weekend, but I got a lot on my plate. But that's the plan.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So I'm finding my right side is still a bit sharp. A seperate left/right measurement will probably be inorder to figure out what's going on there ?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Yes do the L/R comparison. You may be supprised


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

To the OP, after you're done cutting 5-8, check to see if the vocals are fatter and thicker.

Listen to Tracy Chapman or any female contralto with a deep voice. Listen when she hits the really low notes. Does she for an instant sound like a guy? I think 200-250 on your last RTA was a bit hot, but you're probably not hearing it that way because the excess at 5-8 would mask out some of that. Cut a db each at 200, 250 and 315. Listen again. Now cut each by another 0.5 db, keep listening to the same specific part of the song. Cut till she stops sounding like a guy.

How's it going so far for you?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Cut till she stops sounding like a guy.


Now why can't this be applied in the real world?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I'd say so far so good really liking the sound I've got nice minus the Silibance I've got happening on the right side. I think at high volumes having the tweeters firing into the windshield is not ideal but its getting much better! Learning alot thanks to you guys. Seems like my thread is great for alot of people who have questions


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

What song would you recommend by Tracy chapman for this test?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> So I'm finding my right side is still a bit sharp. A seperate left/right measurement will probably be inorder to figure out what's going on there ?


Yes!! Do it the same way. Once you feel you've done it, skip through the tones quickly giving short bursts at each. Do this from ~ 200 and up. Do it a couple of times. You'll start to pick which frequency jumps left / right and you can go back and correct. 

L/R and timing are two bases on which you build everything. You're not going to get it right in a few times, the idea is to make it slightly better every time. So going back and re-working them from time to time is always a good idea. Eventually you'll hit a spot where both are stable and you can focus solely on tonality. I know this is obvious but it should be mentioned, after one has balanced for L/R, to cut a frequency by 1 db cut both sides by 1.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok sounds good ill give it another go some point today or tomorrow then post up some measurements and do some listening


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> What song would you recommend by Tracy chapman for this test?


Try Fast Cars. Tracy sings in that low range and most of her numbers will have some part where she digs deep. 160-300.

If we could play lossless in the car I would recommend this song. Getting the low end right on this one means I can play pretty much any recording and the low end will be deep and a touch tactile, have tons of energy energy and snap. Above all she shouldn't sound like a guy, specially with the first few notes she sings. Considering most of you'll are young, this is probably wuss music for you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL14sti4KZE


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> I think at high volumes having the tweeters firing into the windshield is not ideal but its getting much better!


One day you will get over that thought and be really glad you have those locations.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Haha hopefully these locations are ok. Ill give that song a try. Ill try to find a lossless version I really really hate playing anything off YouTube in my car. I basically don't allow it! Even if my friends want to. Not allowed!


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sqnut said:


> Cut till she stops sounding like a guy


Rofl, I thought Chapman actually was a guy until now. Ridiculous xD


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sqnut said:


> One day you will get over that thought and be really glad you have those locations.


As a quick side trip, I have been following this closely as well. I am about to embark on another tune cycle and I am considering moving my tweets to the far outside dash locations, I have a horrible reflection off my left window that seems not fixable at all. With the tweets in the sail panel I just can't find a position to cure the reflection, plus I still have some comb filtering issues.

I realize the dash may also have some comb filtering going on, but from experience with the stock tweets before my audio build, it isn't bad. At least the reflections from the dash locations would be somewhat the same for each tweet. My left tweet suffers from a large steering column as well.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> Rofl, I thought Chapman actually was a guy until now. Ridiculous xD


Hey, hey, you making fun of tuning by ear?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> Haha hopefully these locations are ok. Ill give that song a try. Ill try to find a lossless version I really really hate playing anything off YouTube in my car. I basically don't allow it! Even if my friends want to. Not allowed!


LOL, there's no way I can play YouTube in my car. But yeah I don't play any ripped CD's in the car, unless my daughter wants to play one of the cd's she ripped (can't say no). As I get older, crankier and more senile (jk:blush, I don't seem to like music that isn't well recorded or music that doesn't use real instruments. I find myself avoiding music that excessively uses stuff like drum machines, synthesizer keyboards etc.

The reason you feel the tweets location is a problem has more to do with the tuning than the location per se. Eventually when you get the tune right, you'll stop thinking about it. Those locations are great for depth, once everything falls into place.


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

Well I am back with my 2 cents, trying to avoid thread jacking, but since I got an OK, here it is.

Went through another cycle of tuning because of changes from low to high input and re-did some ground to chase down some system noise. Got that pretty much fixed so I started from scratch again. This time I tuned targeting a JBL house curve, I thought this would be tough but if you see the above FR I posted above, I had a pretty funky tune going on. Here's the new result in progress. Other details: *Sub *HP at 30, LP at 70. *Mids *HP at 70, LP at 300, *Dash Coaxial *HP 300, LP 15,000 6dB/Oct. All others at 48 dB/Oct.

The earlier tune was basically the same without the 15,000 LP and the door/dash were crossed at 250.

What you are looking at is a 1/3 smoothed FR of the whole system averaged from three measurements at the headrest.



What I can say that is different right now is that that the sound has really opened up. I can compare the two tunes as a bit like "Unplugged" to great venue. What I liked about the old tune was the male vocal and lower female, like Adele. I use Johnny Cash's American Recordings for reference and he was great on that old tune, but there is not a lot of music going on. So I miss some of that excessive warmth, but I can say that things like percussion changed quite a bit and revealed a lot more detail.

REW gave me an odd EQ for the sub so I may work with that. I have a sealed 10" but I might want more at 40 Hz. The transition is very smooth. I am undecided about the 300 Hz crossover, as I may want more depth up front. I will work on pre-crossover parametric filters to bring down the 800-7K range. I think I can use a high shelf filter for that.

Critique away!


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Place a low Q (0,5-1) EQ band at 500Hz and bring it up by 3dB. That bring some of the warmth back.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sqnut said:


> Hey, hey, you making fun of tuning by ear?


LOL. No comments ;P

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> Place a low Q (0,5-1) EQ band at 500Hz and bring it up by 3dB. That bring some of the warmth back.


OK, boost that 250-1k than cut the 800-7k. Makes sense to me. I just saw that REW put a broad negative Q near 500 on the passenger side. So I will re-do that region. Haven't listened to it much yet. I will do that on my commute in 6 short hours!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hindsight is 20/20. One can go back and see exactly where one went wrong. Post 288 and I should have requested a separate thread, it wasn't my thread to take that call before the OP. The problem with multiple journeys in one thread is that it robs the thread of continuity. I think each journey is unique and deserves its own thread. Sorry everyone:blush:

iamstubb: I have some thoughts on the revised curve.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> Place a low Q (0,5-1) EQ band at 500Hz and bring it up by 3dB. That bring some of the warmth back.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


500hz is for clarity, good to boost if sound is dull. Although raising 500 by 3 db may thin out the sound and make it honky. Warmth generally is 50-200 and based on how that sits on the revised curve, boosting a bit at 500 may well work for better clarity.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Nah. I just said 500Hz because it's right in the middle of 200-800Hz which he should bring up a bit imo. The low Q filter will see to that 

60-200 is what I refer to as 'midbass' more or less. Boosting the lower midrange (200-500Hz - vocal fundamentals) is what I call "adding warmth". This is why I try not to use subjective terms, people often refer to different things and it just brings more confusion into the discussion. Measurements are more... definitive, if we measure and derive the data in the same way that is. Otherwise it might as well be as confusing as the audiophile vocabulary xD

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> Otherwise it might as well be as confusing as the audiophile vocabulary xD


You gotta learn the vocabulary/words, then the construction rules before you learn a language. But then you're a scientist and speak a totally different language

Warmth applies to the whole sound, vocals and instruments. Drums will sound different in a warm mix. The sound will be heavier, thicker and fatter.They will be more prominent in the fundamental range ~ 50-200. 

The base of female vocals is ~ 300 and male ~ 125. Boosting the 80-250 range will make the vocals more lush and thicker. In a neutral mix the same drums will sound a lot drier, tighter and not as heavy. [edit] Forgot to add this in the original post. In a warm mix the vocals will sound thicker than in a neutral mix. All in how you set 80-200. Warmth carried to an extreme gives lush vocals and Tracy Chapman will sound like a guy. [edit]

To get the warmer mix to sound somewhat right, you'll have to have more in the 500-2khz range. With the neutral mix you'll have less in the low end and the mid range.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I leave the fancy words to you, you're way better than me understanding subjective terms lol

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I feel like I still need to cut a little from 160-315. I'm assuming my doors resonant frequency is probably around there causing all the peaks in that area. Also my right tweeter still need some cutting to get the higher frequencies more tame. I've had a busy weekend(thanks giving weekend for us in canada) so I didn't have too much time to play around with my car but its certainly getting better


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Post a waterfall of your system - 500ms range.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> I feel like I still need to cut a little from 160-315. I'm assuming my doors resonant frequency is probably around there causing all the peaks in that area. Also my right tweeter still need some cutting to get the higher frequencies more tame. I've had a busy weekend(thanks giving weekend for us in canada) so I didn't have too much time to play around with my car but its certainly getting better


Play the PN tracks from 80-300 and check for stuff like panels buzzing, resonating etc. I would cut more at 200 & a little less at 250. Try that before cutting 160. After cutting 200-250 if you still feel the sound is fat, then think about cutting 160. Look at your last RTA, 160 is much lower than 200-250. 160/200 should be close. 

When balancing L/R first do only the mids. 50hz-2khz with pink noise. Then do only tweets 2khz on wards. Make sure the two centres match. Then come back and re-do 1.25-5khz with all drivers playing. Now do 200-20khz in sharp bursts to ensure you have a stable centre with very little movement from one frequency to the next. 

[edit] When doing the tweets, listen to them one at a time. Do they sound about equally loud or is one side louder?
Now do the L/R balancing. Then come back and listen one at a time. More even but one side still stronger? *Cut* a click or two of delay to the side that's weaker, or lower the level of the louder tweet by 1db. [edit]

Hope you had a good Thanksgiving with the family. I know Canada has Thanksgiving on a different day. My son is at Carlton U.


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

I can see this can turn in to a mess.

I will start a new thread with some comments. I'll post the before and after and a sum of your comments so far. Cheers to a gracious OP.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

How's the tuning going?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Sorry for no post in a while been very busy with school the past week(exams) and with work. I feel like I've gotten it to a point where it's sounding better then it ever did before thanks to your help. I'm still fighting a little with my right tweeter in trying to cut some of the higher frequencies down. I recently picked up some home audio gear and have been comparing and it seems my car actually sounds better which was a shock to me


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Hey all, I'm planning to start my tuning again as the weather starts to get nicer. I had to put a hold on tweaking and tuning for the winter as in Canada, it gets real cold real quick. Just wondering if anyone would be interested in assisting me further with this. I've learned a few things this winter about my dsp, and my system overall and I've been pretty happy with it but there are a few things I'd like to improve on. Did alot of listening this winter and I think I've got an ok plan of attack. Any help from you pro's would be great!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Good to have you back! So what are your thoughts on what you're hearing and whats the plan in your mind to make it better?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I feel like my tweeter positioning is the biggest issue. At low to moderate levels they seem great but I do crank it up often and they seem to fall apart at that point. they don't distort, or break up, but any sort of imaging or staging goes away completely more or less. They are mounted in the stock locations in my 05 doge neon. Basically pointed straight into the windshield. Also the stock locations are not in the same spot on the dash. The drivers side is right in the corner. Far away. The passengers side is further from the windshield closer to the passenger seat. It's really weird how they did it that way. I think before I get some good sound at ALL levels I need to dash mount these in their little cups and try to angle them in such a way that they don't hit the windshield at all. Maybe I'm wrong? I just feel like the louder I turn it up the more shrill? They sound, harsher would be a better way to put it. When trying to rta it's tough for me to turn the volume to my listening max as its stupid loud at that point and hurts my ears. I feel that's the biggest issue. As well as some resonance in the drivers door. Probably going to pull the panel off and get some more deadener on the panel to kill that off.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Also I have the tweeters turned down quite a bit. -5db on both of them. Measured with my dmm at max volume they receive 46 watts each. Doesn't seem like too much power does it ?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Ok, let's put some numbers to what you're saying. At what level does it sound good and at what levels does it fall apart. An SQ setup generally sounds best in the 85-100 db zone. The average setup will start falling apart a bit past 100. With top level competition cars this can go up to ~110. That is frickin loud .

Tweeters are meant to be 5-6db down from the woofer, that's normal. As long as you have TA for each speaker and EQ L/R separately, the locations are not why the sound starts falling apart. Just a wild guess, but I'd try to lower the gains on the amp a bit. How are the gains set?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I set the gains using a dmm as I have 150 watts on tap for the tweeters so I tried to limit it down to about 80rms or so then further decreased the gain with my dsp. Maybe they are too loud? Ill have to take a measurement and see if they're overpowering everything else. In terms of loud, I'm not sure I'm over 100db but I really don't think so. It's loud to me, very loud but I'm not sure if this is considered loud to everyone else


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Download the sound meter app for your phone. You'd be surprised how easily you can hit 100db. A well tuned setup should mostly hold it's composure at ~ the 100 mark. It's all down to timing and response. I'm pretty sure all the issues you're having are down to these two simple things. It's unlikely that the issues are related to equipment or location etc. 

You're not reducing reflections from the windshield by mounting the tweets on the pillars. Like all speakers, tweeters are also omni directional below their beaming point ~14-16khz depending on the size of the tweeters. Below that they are radiating in all directions, so you're still getting a ton of reflections off the wind shield.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So changing tweeter location is not going to help much? I'm in the process of taking some measurements ill post those up shortly


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Left side 


Right side 


Both sides


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Use the L/R readings to balance out each side. For instance 200 hz is much hotter on the left and 125 is hotter on the right. Write down your estimated L/R for each frequency. That will give you an idea of what you need to cut, by how much and on which side.

On the combined response, you have a peak at 6-8 khz which you can cut. Also 200-300 seems hot. The mid bass will be bloated not tight. After you have cut 6-8 try raising 5khz a bit see if the sound gets clearer. You don't want it to thin out, but you do want better clarity. 100 and 125 hz have their roles reversed. See if you can correct that.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok ill give that a shot and report back


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So I haven't done much tuning over the past day or two as its been stupid cold. I did however get into my drivers side door and take care of the resonance and vibration I was getting. Something very stupid was vibrating in there and I took care of that. It really helped clean the sound up. I also have a question. I've noticed for a while that the sound moves left to right alot depending on if my window is up or down. Is that normal? With the window up everything shifts to the left pretty heavily. With the window down its shifts right more towards center. Is that a time alignment issue? If so what's the fix ?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

When you sit in the drivers seat you are already skewed left of the acoustic centre. Now while looking straight ahead if the centre is directly in front of you, i.e. also skewed to the left, the sound from the left speakers is hitting your ears before that from the right. 

Play one set of drivers at a time. Start with L&R woofer only. Where does the sound image up? If it is skewed to the left, add delay on the left and reduce delay on the right. Keep repeating in small steps till you get the image centred between the Left and right boundaries of the car. Use tape and mark that spot on the windscreen with an X. Now play the mids / tweets only and repeat. Again, you want the centre at that X.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Now what about the output of each driver? Should the right side be any louder or quieter? Should I play will the volume of each side ?


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

Adjusting the level works hand-in-hand with TA. You can balance by ear/RTA or you can use the inverse square law to calculate what the theoretical difference is and use that as a starting point. This is a good guide to give you a starting point. Basically you calculate the theoretical loss of sound in dB based on the dB and distance from the reference (closest) speaker. The you can either add that to the furthest speaker, remove that from the closest speaker, or split the difference to equalize intensity. It is theoretical though so it might need adjustment.

For example, my dash left speaker is 48" away, my dash right is 68 away from me. That calculates to a dB difference of 2.36dB. So I can boost the right front 2.36 dB. Try it, it really works and for me, with TA it really pinpoints an image.

The window thing means you are dealing with a lot of reflections. I think every car would show that same effect to some extent. If you use REW as your RTA software you could probably work on that.


Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers

or here

Extron Electronics - Audio Calculators


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

And I believe this is best applied to overall SPL measurements. Interestingly, I found my car was thoughtfully designed as the dash and door speaker placements are almost identical in distance from the driver's headrest.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So I used that calculator and its showing a 2db difference between my left side and right side. That's seems ok. My left tweeter and left mid are almost the exact same distance from my head. Same with the right side


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Would you guys suggest working on TA first, or EQ first ?


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

It doesn't seem like much but if you compare with and without it is noticeable. I did the adjustment after TA in both my car and in my truck with components and it made a difference. I always wonder about the best order of things, EQ, T/A, Level. Maybe SQ has an opinion on what the best order is.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Yea sqnut will beable to clear the order up I'm sure. I cut 2db on my drivers side and seems to have helped a little. My TA so far has just been done using my h800's auto TA fuction. The values seem crazy but the manual says that's normal. I'm sure some tweaking is needed but ill wait till I know what I should focus on first TA or EQ. Killing that stupid resonance/vibration in my drivers side door has really made a difference in the way the mid sounds


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

I'm using the miniDSP so I have to input everything manually so I keep a spreadsheet with all the basic settings and measurements. I don't know if it is any better, but it makes you try to learn the stuff! Of course I end up messing with things anyway after getting them "perfect" by software, etc.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I too find myself messing with stuff after I get it "perfect" haha it'll never be perfect but I'm learning which I like.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

It doesn't matter what you do first. I set TA before EQ, just so that I get the speakers 'equidistant' before addressing the response issues. Some Eq for L/R before they TA. In any case neither TA nor EQ is a one time exercise. So it really doesn't make a difference what you do first.

The only levels I set are on the tweeters. Here I will typically set the tweeters 5-6db below the mid / woofer. Once I have equalized for Left / Right the two drivers are normally within ~ a db or so of each other so I don't need to cut any side. EQ is a much finer control over balancing L/R than cutting levels on either side.

You have to do the TA manually, I've always been underwhelmed by all auto TA solutions. Measure the distance to each speaker and calculate delay. Make that your starting point and then tune by ear to get the centre you want. 90% of where the centre stage images up is down to TA. 90% of L/R balance and stability of the image (no smearing) is down to EQ. If the stage is skewed one way its a TA issue. If the sound jumps around on your stage its a L/R EQ issue.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

^^^^^ Read this. Absorb it. Implement it.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok so I will try doing TA manually. Do I just measure the distance from each driver to my head? Or distance from the sub to myself, then subtract the distance of each driver from the sub distance? I've heard there are a few ways of doing this. My dsp shows the values in ms, and in inches. Also I bought some CDs today and did a little listening. They sound fantastic. I can tell my mids are still a little too "thick?" I guess that's cause by 250hz area? I really like bass lines and a nice strong mid sound but in some songs I can hear its too bloated almost. Since I took care of vibration and reasonace issues I've noticed a decrease in overall "thickness" but it seems there's still a tad too much. I really love a good mid kick or drum and bass line. My acdc cd I bought today really sounds amazing so I think I'm heading in a good direction here thanks to you!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

If your dsp takes measurements in inches then just measure left side driver to left ear and right to right and enter that. You can measure the sub along the outside of the car from the subs location to about where your ears would be. With the sub, you're measuring arrival times for really long wavelengths. Even if you're six inches out from the 'exact' distance, it is not going to make a big difference. 

With the mid and tweet you have to be a little more accurate. If you hold one end of the tape to your ear and you measure to different points on the cone, you will find that the difference can be as much as 5-6". You are looking for the *shortest* distance from the cone to your ears.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok so am I entering a value for my sub? I always thought the sub stayed at 0?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> Ok so am I entering a value for my sub? I always thought the sub stayed at 0?


If the sub is the furthest speaker it is normally set at 0 delay. Since you are entering actual distances, yes the sub will have a value.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Well I can't actually enter distances. I have to enter ms and it shows what I guess it calculates for distance given the ms I enter


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> Well I can't actually enter distances. I have to enter ms and it shows what I guess it calculates for distance given the ms I enter










 

Measure the physical distances and calculate delay. Let's say the speakers are at the following distances:

Sub 72"
Left Midbass 45" Right Midbass 57"
Left Tweeter 47" Right Tweeter 54"

Since the sub is the furthest speaker delay = 0

Left Mid bass: (72-45)/13.54 = 2 ms delay.
Right Mid bass: (72-57)/13.54 = 1.1 ms delay
Left Tweeter: (72-47)/13.54 = 1.85 ms delay
Right Tweeter: (72-54)/13.54 = 1.33 ms delay


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

fantastic thread!

I used this tool as a baseline for my ta and it matches you math perfectly. Also helps with shifting center.

http://theguitarforum.net/ta/

Will be implementing suggestions in this thread today.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I was hoping this thread would help others as well as myself!! Seems like it is!
I will do the calculations for my TA tonight after work and see how the results compare to the auto TA! Will report back with results. Thanks!


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## Extended Power (Jun 8, 2014)

Why would you enter a value for the sub?
I thought subs are "Felt", not "Heard", therefore no distance required.:shrug:
-should not be able to tell where the sub is located...


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I haven't entered a value for my sub and don't plan to. But my dsp does give the option to


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

wow

just cut 150-250 and bass bloat was significantly improved and bumped up 600hz and snare hits have nicer impact. Great advice.

Also went to also 24db slopes, (had to reverse sub phase)

Previously it was 80hz lp subs 24db, Mids bp 80-2k 12db both sides, tweets hp 2.5k 12 db. set to 24db at 2.5k tweet hp and mid lp. Slight difference. Seems more coherent. Went a little lower with the sub mid crossover to 63 but I prefer 80 due to rattles and loud voldme listening.

Also had 16k boosted 3 db but Im right on axis so I knocked it down 2. 

Again great post.

RTA is looking like it should and Im using just the headunit and dsp on the kenwood x4r.


Nice super fast improvement.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I'm glad my thread is helping! Sq has been a great help so far. Progress has been slow due to work, school, and canadian weather haha. I plan to start working a little harder on it this summer but so far I'm pretty happy with how my system is sounding. Really impressed by these components as well specially since I got a nice deal on everything


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Extended Power said:


> Why would you enter a value for the sub?
> I thought subs are "Felt", not "Heard", therefore no distance required.:shrug:
> -should not be able to tell where the sub is located...


The Pioneer units require you to enter distances. If the sub is the furthest then the system sets delay at 0. 'Adding delay' to the sub is fine as long as you factor that in while calculating the delay on the other drivers. It's not about the absolute numbers but the relative delay between the drivers that's important.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

this tool calculates delay in ms or in pioneer's format. You just need to measure distance.

http://tracerite.com/calc.html


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I used the tool you first mentioned and redid my TA just now and all I can say is damn. Never had the vocals so centered. This is amazing! 

One thing I am noticing more now is that different frequencies tend to pull left or right. I guess this is where left and right EQ comes into play?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> One thing I am noticing more now is that different frequencies tend to pull left or right. I guess this is where left and right EQ comes into play?


Yes. Use tap and mark a small X under your rear view. Now play the PN tracks. If a frequency images to the left of that X, cut the left side and vice versa. Run through this a couple of times. Be careful with frequencies from about 1-3khz. The slightest movement of the head will cause them to jump around from side to side.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok I will try that. Also doing more listening it seems mostly to pull to the right. I can't even hear the left side playing at all basically just sounds perfectly blended. Another thing I've noticed is my sub seems to have disappeared. It's blending so well. Better then ever before


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So I went into my local shop today where I know the owner pretty well and had a talk with him. He dug out an old audio control rta and is giving me a chance to come by tomorrow and put my system on it. Hoping to take care of my left and right EQ and balance it out. Wondering if this old beast of an rta would be more accurate then my Dayton mic and iPhone app. This is the unit, it's older then me I'm pretty sure 



It's an audio control SA-3050A. 
What are your thoughts on this? Surely it couldn't hurt ?


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

That could be helpful, but if you have a laptop available, using REW and even the inexpensive Dayton imm6 mic might give you a lot more information and understanding of what is going on. But test that sucker out and show us what you get.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Problem with the imm6 mic is it won't work on a laptop or I would use rew for sure. I'm going to give this rta a test for sure as it won't cost me anything so why not right! I plan to do left and right readings and make some adjustments. Going to play some pink noise and hope for the best. I plan to place the mic on a tri pod and sit outside of the car. See what the response looks like.


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

tgotovac said:


> Problem with the imm6 mic is it won't work on a laptop or I would use rew for sure. I'm going to give this rta a test for sure as it won't cost me anything so why not right! I plan to do left and right readings and make some adjustments. Going to play some pink noise and hope for the best. I plan to place the mic on a tri pod and sit outside of the car. See what the response looks like.


I use it on a laptop no problem. If needed you can get a Y adapter. Do you have a single headphone/mic output or separate mic and headphone jacks?

If you have two jacks, this adapter works.

Amazon.com: StarTech MUYHSFMM 3.5mm 4 Pin to 2x3 Pin 3.5mm Headset Splitter Adapter - F/M: Electronics

Either way you can use an extension cable to run your signal from the mic through your door to the laptop. My system has Aux in so I use REW to send a sweep through the mic's aux output. I calibrate it using a loopback as described in the "HELP". Would work the same with double-jack system and calibration is even easier.

These pics show the door open, but it is closed when testing. I measure from Left,, Center, and Right on the headrest and average the three.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I have/had(lost it by now) that adapter. I ordered it so I could use the mic on my laptop but my laptop wouldn't see the mic at all. I even tried the mic on my girlfriends laptop which has a single mic/headphone combo port and still no luck. Neither machine would detect the mic. All drivers up to date as well. Device manager wouldn't show the mic, and the sound options didn't detect any external mic.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

The response with you in the car and you outside are two different things. So you balance L/R while outside the car. Now when you sit inside the response will change........


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So I guess I should stay in the car while measuring. Ill have to get some ear plugs that pink noise is loud. I did a spl test with an app and my max clean volume is around 106db while
I'm comfortable listening around 100db


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

sqnut said:


> The response with you in the car and you outside are two different things. So you balance L/R while outside the car. Now when you sit inside the response will change........


Correct. I did test that. It's too darn loud to do a whole session like that, so I checked after initial round and measured from ear/ear. I was mainly worried about the mid base down by my left leg running 70-300 Hz. This gets cut a little as I recall. That and my large spongy head cuts down on reflections off the window, but that didn't change too much. I don't remember what I ended up adjusting up there but it was definitely in the "fine tune" category. Maybe around 2K.


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

tgotovac said:


> I have/had(lost it by now) that adapter. I ordered it so I could use the mic on my laptop but my laptop wouldn't see the mic at all. I even tried the mic on my girlfriends laptop which has a single mic/headphone combo port and still no luck. Neither machine would detect the mic. All drivers up to date as well. Device manager wouldn't show the mic, and the sound options didn't detect any external mic.


That's a bummer. I do manually point the OS to use the mic and headset by default using the "playback devices" and "recording devices" from the taskbar in Windoze. My laptop has built in mic and speakers it is always trying to default to instead so I disable those.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Yea I've tried that! I played around with tons of settings and no luck. I couldn't get windows to see the mic it just wanted to use the built in one and if I disable the built in it picks up no sound from anything. Very annoying. I would love to have rew working with that Dayton mic


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

tgotovac said:


> Yea I've tried that! I played around with tons of settings and no luck. I couldn't get windows to see the mic it just wanted to use the built in one and if I disable the built in it picks up no sound from anything. Very annoying. I would love to have rew working with that Dayton mic


Sux! Time to get a new girlfriend with a better laptop!


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Haha yea really. I'm not sure why it doesn't work. Either way I'm gonna play with that rta tomorrow and post up my results. Hope to get some good tuning done


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

As long as you don't come back with L/R balanced but RTA flat. 

Yes, using that RTA has a lot of fun and cool factor and I hope you share your experience. But to me it seems a bit time consuming and cumbersome compared to what can be done in 5 min while sitting in the car and just using ones ears. I mean at the end of the day our ears have to tell us if it's right or not. May as well use them at the start. 

Get it balanced for L/R using the RTA, now set up the X and listen to all the 1/3 oct Pink noise tracks. Do they all centre at the X or do some still jump left and right. Now correct based on what you're hearing. There's a reason why this happens.

Doing the RTA will make a huge difference, like night and day from how you have it now. Give your ears a couple of days to settle in and then try the X exercise. Come back and tell us if you made another equally big jump.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I'll report back when it's all done! Ill take some pictures of the response. I'm heading to the shop now so hope all goes well.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So I had a pretty good time today with that old school rta. I managed to really tame the top end of my system which is what bothered me the most. I managed to flatten them out nicely. I took this reading with my phone/Dayton mic after. 


The sound is extremely smooth up top now and I'm really liking it. In terms of balancing left and right, I managed to get it a little better but I'm noticing now the vocals seem to come from center more or less, but they're still a little wide? As in not 100% focused. Also one thing I've been wondering is how can I bring my sound stage up? Currently vocals/bass appear about 3-4 inches above the dash and I always thought it should maybe be higher? I'm assuming this is due to the high cross over point on my tweeters/mids? Anyways I'm pretty happy with the sound thus far. I pulled a little more 200-280hz and brought up 500-800 and the vocal clarity I have now is a huge improvement!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> In terms of balancing left and right, I managed to get it a little better but I'm noticing now the vocals seem to come from center more or less, but they're still a little wide? As in not 100% focused.


Where and how the vocals image up is down to _both_ correct TA and L/R balance. You want the vocals placed at or just under your rear view mirror and from an area approximately the size of a golf ball. Chances are you need to adjust both TA and L/R eq to cure your issues. The PN and X technique is lo brow but it works. Try it.



tgotovac said:


> Also one thing I've been wondering is how can I bring my sound stage up? Currently vocals/bass appear about 3-4 inches above the dash and I always thought it should maybe be higher? I'm assuming this is due to the high cross over point on my tweeters/mids?


You want the vocals placed as explained above. Where are your drivers located and what xover point and slopes? If your mids are in the doors and the tweets on the pillars / dash / sails, you should have no issues on height. Lets see if working the xover and slopes helps.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I'm going to try the X technique when I have a little free time. My tweeters are on my dash firing to the windshield. I think the height is OK but could be a littl higher. Tweeters are crossed at 4k with a 18db slope. Maybe I just need to dial in the TA a little more. Bass lines seems to be above the dash about 2inches while vocals appear 3-4 inches above the dash which would be about 6 inches below the rear view mirror


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

After hearing a few cars at the NC meet, the idea of center placement really struck me.. Personally, I think my center is way damn too far right, however, it's smack dab center-dash. So apparently my tune may be good and proper but maybe my tastes aren't?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Doing some more listening I'm finding my stage a little too far right. Should I delay the right side more? Or the left side left less? This is still way better then what I had before.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> I'm going to try the X technique when I have a little free time. My tweeters are on my dash firing to the windshield. I think the height is OK but could be a littl higher. Tweeters are crossed at 4k with a 18db slope. Maybe I just need to dial in the TA a little more. Bass lines seems to be above the dash about 2inches while vocals appear 3-4 inches above the dash which would be about 6 inches below the rear view mirror


Lower the xover between the mid and tweets to 3khz, put all four drivers on a 24db slope, put the sub on a 36db slope...... Now do you feel the stage rise? Magic


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I will defiantly give that a try tomorrow and report back as its pretty late right now. I Wonder what the difference will be like!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Babs said:


> After hearing a few cars at the NC meet, the idea of center placement really struck me.. Personally, I think my center is way damn too far right, however, it's smack dab center-dash. So apparently my tune may be good and proper but maybe my tastes aren't?





tgotovac said:


> Doing some more listening I'm finding my stage a little too far right. Should I delay the right side more? Or the left side left less? This is still way better then what I had before.


Once you are used to having the vocalist in front of you (no dsp setup or dsp with incorrect TA), It feels weird to have the vocalist skewed to the right ie towards the rear view mirror. 

Ideally you want to give equal space to left and right stage. The only way you can do this in a car is to align the centre stage around your rear view and that gives you equal space on left and right. This is the way it's supposed to be.

TLDR : Give yourselves a few days, you'll get used to it.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok will do. Ill leave the TA alone for now. Play with the slopes and cross over points and report back.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Question about measuring sub distance. Since I used that to calculate all the ms for my front setup how accurate do I have to be when measuring sub distance ? Should I be measuring from the back of the box or the front of the box? If I measure from the front the distance will be further of course. Which was is best?


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

Measure from the sound source, center of the speaker. Is it firing backward or corner loaded? Not such an obvious thing for back firing, but whatever it is it should be consistent with the TA settings.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

It's firing away from me so I guess backward firing? So should I measure from the surround, over the depth of the box to my head, or from the back of the box?


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

I'd measure from the sub driver face. Keep in mind it's going to be moved anyway.. Don't be afraid to play with that T/A distance entry for the purpose of getting your timing and phase right, to pull your bass up into the front-stage as much as possible.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok sounds good. Bass is pretty upfront with my most recent TA settings but I just wanted to make sure I measure the sub right since I think it's pretty important as I used it to calculate all my delays. So far so good.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

With a sub you don't have to worry about accuracy in fractions of inches. Why? Because an 80hz wave has a wavelength of 14 feet, a couple of inches here or there are not going to matter. Yes you are calculating all delays from the sub distance, but its much more important to be accurate on the measurements for mids and tweets. Measure the shortest distance to the source of the wave i.e. to the cone. So if the sub is firing backwards then yes, you would include the width of the box. However I think TA is not your issue right now. Focus on one thing at a time

Did you manage to play with the xover and slopes or are you overthinking there as well?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Haha yea maybe a little over thinking. Just want to make sure I did everything as accurately as possible. I haven't had a chance to change the xovers and slopes yet. I will tomorrow. Will I have to worry about changing the phase of anything ? As it stands now I'm using all 18db slopes with only my mids reversed in phase. Going all 24db will I have to worry about phase ?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> Haha yea maybe a little over thinking. Just want to make sure I did everything as accurately as possible. I haven't had a chance to change the xovers and slopes yet. I will tomorrow. *Will I have to worry about changing the phase of anything ?* As it stands now I'm using all 18db slopes with only my mids reversed in phase. Going all 24db *will I have to worry about phase ?*


How did I know that you are over thinking the change in xovers / slopes and that's why you were holding out on it. In your mind, there is a conflict between what I'm suggesting and what the filters in your head are telling you. So we are at an inflection point. I'm not sure I have the energy or patience to run down multiple alleys chasing ghosts with you every time we want to try something. I've done my share of that. 

Seven years ago I was in the exact same position as you and I started a thread over at Polk Audio. My head filled with these wonderful SQ terms but the sound was way worse than what you have. I wanted to make it better and so I started that thread. 

Someone I consider my mentor was helping me out in that thread. Every thing he said went through my filter and and as a result little was absorbed. He would make simple suggestions but my head was filled with a 100 different thoughts. I think he gave up after a few months, brave dude MacLeod. It took me a good 4 years of going around in circles after that before the penny dropped and then it took two years to dial the sound in. 

In a highly reverberant environment like a car phase coherence is nothing more than correct timing on drivers and using 4th order slopes. Beyond that thinking about phase is a complete and utter waste of time, it's just another ghost to chase. 

Let me put it another way. Assume for a minute that changing the xover points and slopes screws up the phase, how are you going to know that? What does messed up phase sound like? How will you know if the phase coherence is better or worse with the change? So we know everything there is to know about phase and what changes it but we don't know what phase coherence sounds like .

Which brings us back to the inflection point. We can continue down the same road and you can have your 4 years of going round and round, being a scientist and maybe end up in equipment swapping mode. Or you can block out everything and just focus on how it sounds and you will make slow but steady progress over time. 

Consider this, everything that is wrong with the sound in your car is down the response at your ears. Currently you're hearing about 20-30% of those issues. The rest you're hearing but they aren't registering yet. So I would focus on thinking about how you can start hearing them before I thought about issues like phase, or if the signal from the hu clips at max volume, or if boosting a frequency on the eq by 2db clips the amp and whatever else. Eventually your ears should tell you if you're hearing a clipped signal. 

The flip side of 'everything that's wrong is in the response' is that the only way you have to change that response is through TA on the drivers and xover/slopes and the eq. That's it, that's all you have to work with and all that you need to focus on. I can help you all you want on this path but I'm not a ghostbuster.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So first I would like to thank you for your continued help. The amount of patience you've shown this far is great and I'm very thankful for that. I'm sorry for getting side tracked with every little thing but this is my first system of this caliber and the first time I've had gear capable of such sound. I feel I've made some good progress so far but I really want to dial this in. I've also been driving around today with the slopes and xovers you suggested and listening. And I have noticed a rise in stage height for sure. In terms of how it sounds...good still, but different the my previous settings. Not sure how to describe it but it's different for sure. I'm sorry for the over thinking on this but I feel it's better sounding then ever before and I just don't want to mess that up which I really shouldn't worry about as I have various presets so its easy for me to switch back and forth on the fly to hear the differences. 

I understand if you would like back out from this thread I'm sure it's rather frustrating for you. Your help so far has been fantastic and I really hope I can get this sound dialed in the way id like it.


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## peenemunde (Aug 31, 2013)

When there's something STRANGE, livin in your hood 
Who ya gonna call?¿
SQNUT!!!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> I understand if you would like back out from this thread I'm sure it's rather frustrating for you. Your help so far has been fantastic and I really hope I can get this sound dialed in the way id like it.


The tone has changed. I'm a push over dad of a 13 year old girl and a 25 year old son. I'm blessed that 99% of the time they are gems. My fatal flaw is that in that 1% I sometimes snap, which is at total variance with the dad they know. As kids they would just clam up and then they started telling me, dad your tone has changed. I think that's what happened in my last post. Like I do with them I'll start by apologizing and admitting that quite a few of my comments were out of line. 

Tuning threads are few and far between on the forum. Most people lose interest after a while and accept wherever they are. Only handful of folks like you and a couple of others want to persevere and that's when we have a tuning thread. I enjoy posting in your thread cause you're willing to experiment, you're picking up issues in what you're hearing and hence have a natural inclination to becoming a really good tuner one day. Also becuase you're probably my sons age and a nice guy like him. Although once in a blue moon both of you'll need tough love. 




tgotovac said:


> I've also been driving around today with the slopes and xovers you suggested and listening. And I have noticed a rise in stage height for sure.


I told you, magic. Height cues are ~ 1khz and up. By lowering the xover points and using a steeper slopes, you're now getting more of 2khz and up from a driver thats mounted higher and less from the driver that's mounted lower Makes sense?



tgotovac said:


> In terms of how it sounds...good still, but different the my previous settings. Not sure how to describe it but it's different for sure.


Keep going, you're doing good on qualifying what you're hearing. Now flip back and forth between the preset of how you had it earlier and then with 24 db slopes all round. Go back and forth between the two a few times. Listen carefully, is the sound cleaner with 4th order slopes? Is there less chaff and graininess?



tgotovac said:


> I'm sorry for the over thinking on this but I feel it's better sounding then ever before and I just don't want to mess that up which I really shouldn't worry about as I have various presets so its easy for me to switch back and forth on the fly to hear the differences.


I just want you to focus on how it sounds for a bit and like you said one can always go back by saving presets.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Haha thanks for the ongoing help and the tough love. Much needed. I'm a little younger then your son and I'm sure your children keep you plenty busy. I really want to learn how to tune so in the future ill be able to figure this all out on my own! 

What I've noticed after a few hours of listening with the new slopes and xover points. Cleaner, yes!! Stage higher?? Yes!! But I've noticed my tweeters have become louder? harsher is probably a better word for it. Seems they are a little over powering now. Maybe because they're covering more frequencies now? I've also noticed a decrease in sub bass so I brought up the lpf from 70hz to 80hz. Imaging has changed, shifted slightly right I have a strong feeling my right tweeter needs to be turned down and I'm going to do that now and take some rta measurements and see what's going on now. Thanks for all the help and patience so far. I'm very dedicated to this and will keep following your direction.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

The tweeter sounds slightly harsher cause its playing lower. Crossed at 4 on 18 db slopes you could audibly hear it down to ~ 2khz. Now with it 3khz, you're probably hearing it down till ~ 1.6khz. Use your eq to make small cuts between ~1.25-2.5 khz. That should solve the harshness issue. I normally keep the tweeters 5-6db lower than the mids. After you have made the eq cuts, try cutting the level by a db or so. 

Once again I apologize for the rant, but its tough for a dad to see a kid making the same mistakes he did.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Haha, don't worry about it. I get where you're coming from and it makes total sense. Yea I figured its harsher cause I'm hearing more from the tweeters. Tomorrow after work I'm going to make those cuts you mentioned. Ill pull out my phone rta setup and see what's going on there. But the stage height is fantastic now bass lines are clear across the dash. Very controlled. I notice the difference in slopes right away. Everything seems...cleaner cut. Once I smooth out the tweeter response it'll back to working on TA as I feel it's changed a bit with the new settings. So far so good though!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> I really want to learn how to tune so in the future ill be able to figure this all out on my own!


Keep this thread going and we will turn you into a maniacal tweaker in a couple of months. All you'll be doing is tweaking and listening and then tweaking some more. Like me, along the way you will feel like you have 'arrived' a few hundred times, keep going. Enjoy what's good but always 'hear' what's wrong. That's the only way to keep getting better.



tgotovac said:


> I've also noticed a decrease in sub bass so I brought up the lpf from 70hz to 80hz.


By putting your sub on 36db slope @ 70hz, what you're losing out on are the _mid bass_ frequencies that the sub was playing. The mid bass should be done upfront from your 6.5". 

So one way is to raise the xover point like you did, another way is to keep the xover at 70 and on your eq raise 60 and 100 like 0.5-1 db each while cutting 125 by 1 db. That should improve your mid bass a bit. You can try this crossed at 80 too. 



tgotovac said:


> Imaging has changed, shifted slightly right I have a strong feeling my right tweeter needs to be turned down and I'm going to do that now and take some rta measurements and see what's going on now. Thanks for all the help and patience so far. I'm very dedicated to this and will keep following your direction.


If the sound pulls towards the right tweet,play only the tweeters and listen. Now flip back and forth between L & R tweet. Do they sound equally loud or is the right one much louder? Check each one on your phone app to verify.

If both are about equal but it still pulls right, past the rear view then it's a TA issue. Sound from the right is arriving before that from the left. Add delay to the right and reduce delay to the left in equal steps. 

The right tweet is much louder, mark the X and run the PN tracks from ~1.6khz up and use the eq to centre each frequency. If it images to left of X cut the left side and vice versa. 

It could be a combination of both timing and L/R response in which case EQ or TA alone will only improve things a bit but not cure the problem. So once you've done one, you'll know you have to do the other as well.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I plan to keep this thread alive with your help of course!! I will make the suggested changes tonight after work and do the X. I feel there will be alot of cutting going on here. I can use the sound meter app I have to determine how much louder my right tweeter is then the left. Left tweeter is turned down 3db so far. Right tweeter is down 4db but it'll probably need more cutting. Ill pull out the rta app and see what's going on. I feel upper mid bass, above 100 is pretty strong will which is probably good right? Ill get into tweaking and report back.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> I feel upper mid bass, above 100 is pretty strong will which is probably good right? Ill get into tweaking and report back.


Try the tweeter thing as one project and if you feel you are somewhat lacking in the low end try this as a second project.

Play only the mid bass and if they are dialed in you should not feel like you're lacking for low end. If they sound thin playing together 99% it's down to a delay issue between the two. I am assuming that both mids are in reverse polarity and delays are set based on measured distances. 

Put both your mids in normal polarity. Put on some bass heavy music and play only the the sub and the near MB. When the timing between the sub and the mid is correct, it should feel like the entire low end is coming from your mid without any loss of clarity, this is what you're aiming for. It should not sound thin and it shouldn't sound like the low end muffles out the clarity. 

Now add delay on the mid in 0.1ms increments in about 5-6 steps. Do you get that point? If not go back to the starting point and this time reduce delay in 0.1 ms step again 5-6 step. Chances are you will find that swett spot in this range. Now play the far mid and the sub and repeat. Once you have the bass flowing from both mids w/o sacrificing clarity. The mids are in phase with the sub and with each other. 

Now play the two mids together. Are you getting more of the lower end? Now add the sub. Try these two mini projects see how it goes.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Hanatsu said:


> Use "real" software. I can't really read what's going on in that plot.
> 
> Download RoomEQ (REW), REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software
> 
> ...












I just learned this little lesson. I just THOUGHT my mids were in phase. I noticed playing together they had a nasty dropout at 155hz. Playing with right mid phase at 33-45 degrees I got the blue plot. So back to square one on the measurements and trims. I'm perplexed though because delays are setup by distance measurements. 

I now suspect all drivers. Time and phase alignment are absolutely paramount. Otherwise you're only applying EQ to drivers that aren't playing together at your ears. I've obviously not mastered it. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

That's a pretty interesting discovery. I don't think I have any huge issues like that, although I have others haha. Guess ill know once everything is dialed in nicely.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So I went to town tonight working away at the tweeters. Just finished up tuning for the night. Had to make ALOT of cuts in the exact areas you said I would have to. Got 3 measurements as the night progressed. 

First round



Second round 



Third round



I tried my best to mellow out my tweets. Took a combo of turning them down and cutting. I also noticed a huge dip at 400hz so I brought that up by 1db. Spent a good amount of time tonight listening to pink noise, left, right, all, just tweets, just mids. Everything you suggested. I think I should give it a listen now and see what it sounds like with music!!
Also I found it a little difficult listening to pink noise for left and right centering. Maybe my ears are just tired from a night of playing around with PN. I'm going to give some music a go tonight and get back at it tomorrow night. I think I mellowed out the tweets but we'll see after some music. It's still a little hot at some bands, 2k, and 6.3k. Also some weird dips at 1.25k. But again time for a listen. One thing I also did was lower the right side by 1db as it was pulling too much


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

so I did a little listening so far. First impressions, MUCH smoother up top now. Still a little bite from the right side(assuming that's either 2k or 6.3k) but NO where near as bad as before the changes even at my max volume it didn't hurt the ears. Everything kept its composure. Bass is pretty clean and clear, both mid and sub. Imaging its much better, a little pull still but not as bad. One stupid thing I found in my dsp just as I got home, there's apparently an output attenuation for the left and right side. For some stupid reason, left was cut 1db and right was raised 1db. No wonder my left side seemed louder. That's a 2db difference there right? I set both sides to 0 and called it a night. Tomorrow more listening. Ill be awaiting further instructions on how to proceed but I think 2k and 6.3 will get another cut. Also, is the top of the snare around 1.25k by any chance? Sounds like its lacking.


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## chasinbass (Jul 23, 2014)

Good Googly Moogly ! Lol I started reading this thread at 3:00 this afternoon and its about 11:15 now and I am just getting through it ! I have been strugling to get my PRS 80 to sound right for a year ! So much great info here ! Thanks for giving out so much knowledge. I am kinda a bass head at heart and most of the time SQ doesn't even matter in my truck -7000 watts on a single FI Team 18 in 7 [email protected] 30hz but there are alot of times driving without it as one of you said "flexin body panels and i gotta say it sounds awful at times. I am going to try to use some of what I have picked up here to try and get it sounding a little better. I wont be able to tune to the extent you at as I don't have dsp yet anyway. But it cant hurt to try and improve it.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

A 4 db swing between L&R tweeter would definitely pull the mids and highs to the right. Which is why you struggled while balancing L/R and with the X thing. I'm sure you wound up cutting the right side a lot from 1.6khz up and then right at the end there, you discovered what was wrong and you leveled out tweets. Now guess what happened to all balancing that you did earlier....no, don't go back and change tweeter levels again. We will work from here. It might be a good idea to start from scratch and set the foundation of all drivers in phase and L/R is balance. 

Tune in short bursts of 15-20 mts if you're tuning with music and 3-5 minutes if you are working with PN. Do a session and then step away for a bit to give your ears some rest. If your ears get overloaded you lose all accuracy in the ability to tell a difference, 'better/worse', 'left/right', 'louder/softer' etc.

Dialing in phase with music like I mentioned earlier is a little difficult if you're starting out. One needs to know exactly what one is looking for. So let's try this with PN but this time lets focus on how we do it. 

Say your sub to mid xover is 80hz. Play only the near mid and the sub and play the 80hz tone. Now add delay on the mid in the 0.1 db steps as mentioned earlier. From your starting point add delay in 5-6 steps then reduce delay and come back to the starting point. Do this a few times. You're trying to figure out which way its getting louder and which way is softer. Once you have done this, take a break for a couple of minutes. Now go back and verify the result and then you're looking for the loudest point. Align each mid to the sub this way. Remember 3-5 min bursts only. This gets the mids in phase with the sub and with each other.

Next step is to get the mid and tweet on each side are in phase. With your xover at 3khz play that PN track with only mid and tweet on one side. This time add/reduce delay on the tweet in 0.05 ms increments. Again you're trying to find out which way is louder and which is softer and then highest point. Now play music with the mid and tweet on one side. With your mid down in the door and the tweet up on the dash, with the drivers in phase the sound should image up just forward of the sail panel. Do the mids and tweets on both sides and now all five drivers are in phase. 

Do this and then we will work on getting the L/R balanced.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok sounds good. I will attempt this tonight/tomorrow and report back. Using measured distances seems to be ok but not 100%. As it sits now my mids are the only drivers with the phase reversed. I feel like I have pretty good mid bass output. That 80hz point is low though. Mids and sub are crossed at 80hz.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Put the mids in normal polarity and then tune.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok will do


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So I tried the time alignment by ear tonight. I used a 80hz tone and followed your steps. Doing left mid and sub seemed ok. I could hear when it got louder but it wasn't easy. I then tried the right mid and it seemed more difficult. I just couldn't hear as much of a noticeable difference like I did on the left side. I played around for a while tonight and at the end the bass seemed to be very much to the left. Guess I got it more or less perfect on the left side. Right side not so much. Is my left mid maybe that much louder then my right? Would it help if I lowered the xover on my right mid for this so it will play 80hz louder so I will notice the difference more ? This is really driving me crazy! I tried the 3k tone between my tweeters and mids and that was alot more difficult. Sounded as if it was coming from all over the place. Reflections? Is there anything I can do to aid me in this? Maybe use my phone rta or something? I feel very unsuccessful. At the end the bass was very left, vocals were right, everything was very seperated if that makes sense? left side seemed louder almost even though i didnt touch levels at all? weird i think. sounded less then ideal. Maybe I'm just too tired its very late(or early morning actually) and I'm pretty tired. Maybe not ideal for something like this. I shall give it another go tomorrow as I have the day off to go at it.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Any advice before I try this again? I must be doing something wrong


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

There will be days like this where nothing works out. There will be good days too. On days where it's not happening just listen to music.

Go back to the measured distances but keep the mids in normal polarity. If you're setting the delay of all drivers based on measured distance and then reversing the polarity of the mids you are changing the timing of the mids vs the tweets and subs. How does it sound with the mids in normal polarity?

With the PN the idea is to do two things, locate the source of sound and then tell a difference between louder / softer . It's new skills that you are teaching your brain. Let's move in small steps and do this one thing at a time. So no real tuning for the day but let's try some fun exercises to see if we can use music and then PN to locate sound.

Play music but play mids and tweets on one side only. Where is the sound coming from? Does it seem to come from a diffused area like shown in the attachment? Now close your eyes and listen, in that diffused area can you pinpoint the origin? See that black core in the pic? That is what I'm trying to get you to locate. Now open your eyes do you still see that core? Close your eyes again and listen. When you're starting out its easier to see it with the eyes shut. Go back and forth between eyes shut and open. The objective here is to see that core with your eyes open.

The reason you 'see' a diffused area is because of reflections The dark core area that we are trying to pick represents the direct sound and the fuzzyness around it are the reflections. We are only interested in the location of that direct sound. Once you are able to pick the core with the eyes open, let's try moving this area and see if we can track it. Keep reducing the delay on the tweeter, do you feel the sound move towards the tweeters. Go back to the starting point and this time keep adding delay on the tweet. Do you hear the sound move lower towards the woofer? Each time can you pick that core area?

Go back to the normal settings. Once you are able to do this with music play a full range PN signal pick the diffused area and the core? Once you can do it with pink noise, play all drivers play the PN tracks from about 300hz up. At each frequency try and locate the core area. Try it first with your eyes closed and then open. When you're doing it right you will find that some frequencies image up lower than others some are skewed to the left and some to the right. You may have to go through this a few times, but once you can pick this we will be ready to balance L/R.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok I will take a break and give your exercise a try! Also when doing the 80hz tone TA by ear thing, am I to be using an 80hz tone? Or 80hz pink noise ?

Also with the mids in normal polarity it sounds...like the mids are a little stronger almost? Not a HUGE noticable difference but yea I think mid bass from 100hz up is pretty strong. Actually, listening to it now it sounds like I have a ton more sub. I've actually turned the sub down now and it seems damn loud. Little bit muddy though in the lower end. Also in case this matters, I do have the sub sonic filter on at 30hz with 24db slope.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

For 80 hz you can use either but above ~300 sse only 1/3 oct PN tracks, its just easier to use PN for everything. With the mids in reversed polarity you had a dip at your xover frequency of 80hz. Now with the drivers in phase and correct polarity 80 will get bumped up. That is the extra mid bass you are feeling. Cut 80hz a bit if it sounds bloated.

I'm not sure how loud you listen to the PN. It doesn't have to be very loud 80-85 db is enough, Don't play the PN too loud, you'll just tire out your ears faster.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok thanks for the tip! Will cut 80hz as I had it bumped up 1db and listen for the day.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

so I went for a nice long drive today listening to all kinds of different music. using the measured distances is actually pretty good in combo with the xover settings and slopes, as well as the so far made EQ settings you recommended me. one thing I noticed big time, not sure if this is due to the mid phase being changed, or the half decent TA but the sub, or just bass in general, is HUGE now. very loud. I find myself running the sub much lower then I use to. I kept it at about 6 out of 15 on the sub control in my dsp, tonight I found myself turning it as low as 2, sometimes 0!! it sounds like I have PLENTY of midbass. some cutting will need to happen down there, and maybe lower the xover on the sub from 80 to 71. bass lines/bass guitar is very pronounced, and at times a TAD muddy, im assuming this is 100-250hz? stage is nice and high, id say about perfect. image is not bad either actually, maybe slight drifting but not as bad as before. sub blending...not bad either actually other then when its playing too loud. I think the biggest thing bothering me right now is the mid bass(100-250??) but otherwise these measured distances seem to be pretty good. maybe more accurate measuring will bring even better results? I still plan to try the PN method either tomorrow or day after but right now Im enjoying music! also as of now my sub has 0 EQ applied to it. not sure if thatll come after we take care of the front or if its not needed? anyways I really enjoyed my music tonight and just wanted to share!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

With the mids at measured distance and in correct polarity they are now in phase with the sub and hence you would have a lot more of the low end. Try the following cuts to cut the fatness/bloat.

Cut 80 hz 2 db
Cut 125 hz by 1.5 db
Cut 200 by 2.5 db
Cut 250 hz by 1.5 db

[edit] Listen to the same music, if its still fat cut 0.5 db at 160. If the cuts have thinned the sound out too much, raise a bit at 160. If you feel the sub is still too loud then lower the xover point to the 60hz region. 

Now one knows that having the mids and sub in phase means one will be looking at cutting the low end for it to sound balanced. If on the other hand one needs to raise sub levels or boost in the 50-200 region to get some impact, there's a good chance that the mids and sub are out of phase.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Will apply those cuts tomorrow and report back. I assume having too much is better then not enough right! It really made a huge difference changing the mid phase and adding correct TA. If I lower my sub to 60hz with the 36db slope, and my mids are at 80hz with the 24db slope won't I have a gap? Between my mids and sub? I'm going to apply the cuts first and hopefully that fixes my current issue.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> I assume having too much is better then not enough right! It really made a huge difference changing the mid phase and adding correct TA.


Your measurements were good and yes the flip in polarity put all drivers in phase and hence the gain. If the sounds still pulls towards the right tweeter just add 0.02-0.04 ms delay on it. I would say that for now your TA is pretty solid.



tgotovac said:


> If I lower my sub to 60hz with the 36db slope, and my mids are at 80hz with the 24db slope won't I have a gap? Between my mids and sub? I'm going to apply the cuts first and hopefully that fixes my current issue.


So bring your mids down to 60, it's not going to hurt them. Unless you try and crank them to 120db. My mids and sub are crossed at 50hz at the same slopes for the last 5 years. Most of the time it's playing around 95-100 db with transients hitting 105db. You'll probably find 50 too low, 60 is a good via media, if you do decide to lower the xovers.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I was considering lowering my mids down to 70hz for a trial like that. Does the fact that my mids fs is 68hz matter? I've always heard you want to cross above the fs ?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Don't worry about the fs on a woofer. On a tweeter sure, you don't want to go anywhere near the fs both for the fear of damaging the driver and the fact that you would get a ton of added distortion in the range where your ears are most sensitive. Use 70 if you're more comfortable with it. Not much of a difference between 60 and 70 anyways.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Tendean17 said:


> Andy Wehmeyer :
> Raise the crossover frequency between the midbass and the sub and work on the EQ between 60 and 160Hz. Sounds counterintuitive, but it works. THe rule here is NOT to drive speakers (other than subwoofers) at or near their resonance.
> 
> it doesn't matter that frequencies above 100Hz are direectional, what matters is that between 80-200 Hz, a 6" speaker radiates the sound in all directions. Aiming doesn't matter at all--not one bit--zip--zilch--nada. THe problem is the difference in distance from each to your ears (arrival times) and the frequency response at the ftansition from bass to midbass
> ...


Kelvin


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So I've made the cuts you suggested and it seems to have helped a bunch. I still think some can be cut more but I really don't want to lose any off the bass guitar that I love oh so much. Maybe my sub could use some EQ? Or is that not really needed? So far I'm pretty impressed with overall mid bass out put. Phase really makes a huge difference!! Still a tad bloated I feel. I didn't touch 160hz yet though so maybe that's needed as well? So far so good though. 

Also not really sure how to feel about that big fs post from subwoofery. On one hand it makes sense, on that other you have 5 years expirence with it and have had 0 issues. Tuning makes the difference I'm assuming yea??? Haven't lowered my xovers to 70 yet but I probably will tomorrow. I guess that's good for the sub right? And bringing the bass even MORE upfront ?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> Kelvin


Thanks for sharing, but there's no way that I would use a sub/mid xover in the 80-160hz range. BTW can you explain what high order HD sounds like? How about the phase issues from a low xover between sub and mids, what does that sound like?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> So I've made the cuts you suggested and it seems to have helped a bunch. I still think some can be cut more but I really don't want to lose any off the bass guitar that I love oh so much. Maybe my sub could use some EQ? Or is that not really needed? So far I'm pretty impressed with overall mid bass out put. Phase really makes a huge difference!! Still a tad bloated I feel. I didn't touch 160hz yet though so maybe that's needed as well? So far so good though.


Cut some more at 80/200 and make that small cut at 160.



tgotovac said:


> Also not really sure how to feel about that big fs post from subwoofery. On one hand it makes sense, on that other you have 5 years expirence with it and have had 0 issues. Tuning makes the difference I'm assuming yea??? Haven't lowered my xovers to 70 yet but I probably will tomorrow. I guess that's good for the sub right? And bringing the bass even MORE upfront ?


The quick and simple way to test that is to try both xover points. Try it crossed at 70-80 like you have it and then at 100-125hz. Let your ears decide.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Wow haha I feel like 100-125 will be WAY too high. Ill defiantly try 70hz though. Ill take some rta readings tomorrow and post up. See what my Mid bass area is looking like. Probably will cut more at 80 and 200. And a little at 160. Really curious as to what the rta will show! Ill post it up tomorrow night and we'll see. So far so good though


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

sqnut said:


> Thanks for sharing, but there's no way that I would use a sub/mid xover in the 80-160hz range. BTW can you explain what high order HD sounds like? How about the phase issues from a low xover between sub and mids, what does that sound like?


My post wasn't directed @ you since we know you won't change your way of thinking... We've been there already  

Using @ high Xover point is not the devil - it can also win World Titles (check BigRed win against Eldridge with his way too high 125Hz Xover point ) 
I know you think it's not possible to hear distinct L & R information with a Xover point too high. 

If you're so smart, answer your own question first and I'll tell you if it does sound like something I've heard or not. 

Kelvin


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

*Q*



subwoofery said:


> My post wasn't directed @ you since we know you won't change your way of thinking... I know you think it's not possible to hear distinct L & R information with a Xover point too high. We've been there already


lol yeah, you had me worried there for a bit, that you'd forgotten and yes, I still don't like to listen to my mid bass in mono.



subwoofery said:


> Using @ high Xover point is not the devil - it can also win World Titles (check BigRed win against Eldridge with his way too high 125Hz Xover point )


BigRed has his sub upfront, plus the kind of attention and detailing that went into building, deadening, isolating and tuning that install, is well beyond the purview of the normal, put in the right sized box and toss it in the trunk kinda install that most of us have. Just from a tuning point alone, integrating a sub with a high xover points means that you need a seperate eq for the sub and the mids, something the OP's H-800 doesn't do. So to take a part of BigReds equation and make a general statement about xovers, may not be totally accurate. 

I'm not saying you can't integrate a sub above 80, just that the kind of effort it takes to make it work may not be worth it, in a typical install. It's much easier to integrate the sub with a lower xover. If I want to scratch my right ear lobe, should I just use my right hand or swing the left behind my head and then do it?




subwoofery said:


> If you're so smart, answer your own question first and I'll tell you if it does sound like something I've heard or not.
> 
> Kelvin


So you're saying you know a low xover point gives higher order HD and phase issues, but you don't know what it sounds like. Here's my take

1. HD : So if the fs on my mid is 60 and I'm crossing it at 50, I'm adding some HD of fundamentals at 40,50 etc right? 120hz is the 3rd order for 40 and 150hz for the 50 fundamental. Thanks to the effect of the car most installs will have a huge hump in the 80-200 range, (assuming your drivers are in phase). This is a range you will cut a lot in any case. But wait, HD does not respond to eq so what %ofHD do we have in any case and how many dbs down is it in the overall mix? Trust me if I had something happening at 120/160 which was not responding to eq, it would stand out like a sore thumb. A response peak at 120 adds bloat and at 160 the sound would be unbearably fat. No issues on either front.

2. Phase: After SQ, phase is perhaps the most used word on the forum. Imho phase in a car is nothing more than timing the drivers, normal polarity on drivers, 4th order slopes and some response tailoring. I know I have phase issues if:

- The sound pulls towards the drivers. If I can't locate the drivers based on what I'm hearing or if I can look at a driver not 'feel/hear' the sound from it, I know I don't need to worry about phase.

- I know I have phase issues if the vocals sound stretched and no amount of eq helps.

- I know I have phase issues if I have a weak low end which I need to correct with boost on the sub and in the mids in 70-200 range. Both of which will stand out like a sore thumb. I know the mids and subs are in phase when I have too much low end for a start.

It takes about 2 seconds to pick drivers that are out of phase.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> Wow haha I feel like 100-125 will be WAY too high. Ill defiantly try 70hz though.
> 
> Don't be intimidated by the dsp and don't think too much about what will happen if you make changes. Remember you control the dsp not the other way round. So playing around with xover / slopes etc is fine to understand how the changes on the dsp affect what you're hearing. If you don't like what you hear just go back to the previous setting, at least you'll know what it sounds like.
> 
> ...


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Hmmm that's some good points you make there. Very interested to see my graph. I guess I could try the 125hz xover. Wouldn't hurt at all! Ill put up some results today. Stay tuned!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

This thread started off with you wanting a solution to a boomy and muddy low end. So even eight months ago you were 'hearing' the issues. I'm sure by now that ability to pick whats right and wrong has only improved by leaps and bounds. Frankly, eight months ago you were ahead of where I was when I started out. It took me about six months to realize how horrid and bloated my mid bass really was. 

Tuning is about hearing the defects and then knowing how to resolve them using timing and response, cause those are the only two tools you have. It's very important to have a reference sound. Take music that you are very familiar with and listen to it on your 2ch at home or even on a good set of cans. That is the sound you're aiming for in your car. As another little exercise to try when you have the time, pick a song that you are very familiar with. Now pick any one part of it, could be the vocals, the bass lines, the drums etc and just focus on that. Now listen to it on your ref setup and then listen to it in the car. Go back and forth between the two and see if you can list 5 ways in which the two sounds are different, remember just focus on one area.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I will most defiantly do that. I have an ok pair of speakers at home I listen to pretty often. Also sorry for no recent update it was my birthday yesterday had alot of running around to do, family stuff and whatnot as well as work. Ill try to post up the rta reading tonight and ill pick a few songs to use for the test you mentioned just now.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Belated birthday greetings, hope you had a great time!! :thumbsup:


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Hey thanks! I did have a great time. 

So down to business now. Here is my new curve on the rta. Before I had 80hz boosted by 1db. It measured 43db on the rta. Now with the changes I have 80hz cut by 1db, and this is where I'm at



Not bad right? 5db gain by phase correcting and more accurate TA. Looking ok so far yea? Sure sounds great! Still need to do some more dedicated listening but so far so good! What are your thoughts on this? compared to my previously posted RTA results, this one looks the nicest so far I think


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Yep that dip at 80 is now less pronounced. Based on what you're hearing, see if you need to cut some bloat at 200 and 250, 200 specifically. Try the following small changes and see how it goes. With each change try to see what part of the sound is changing and how.

Raise 500 by 1 db - This should give better clarity on vocals and should give your lower end more presence. Too much at 500 and the sound will get honky and telephone like.

Raise 1khz by 0.5 db, this will give the sound more dynamics and the mid bass will have more snap. Then try raising another 0.5db. Too much of 1 khz and the sound will get thin and horn like.

Cut 1.25khz 0.75 db, this should help in cleaning up the sound.

Cut 1.6 khz by 1 db. This will take some of the extra bite out of the sound.

Cut 2.5 khz by 0.5 db, cut 3 khz by 1 db and cut 4 khz 2 db - This should make the sound cleaner and will reduce any tinniness in the sound.

Raise 5 khz in 0.5 db steps. 5 khz adds transparency to your sound it also brings the stage a bit closer to you too much at 5 and the sound will get thin and you will start losing the low end. You have a big dip at 5 so you'll need to play here a bit.

Cut 6 and 8 khz by 2 db, this will reduce the shouty edge on vocals.

GL with the suggestions above.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok i will give those suggestions a go tomorrow. I think the dip at 5 may be due to a cut I made while trying to tame the tweeters. 6-8k seems to always be too hot. Ill try cutting more 6-8 and bring up the 5k as well as everything else mentioned. Then I think it'll be time for a day of listening. Ill try to get this done tomorrow night then do some listening and report back.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Make all the other changes first and do 5 at the end. That will give you better sense of how much you need to raise here. Raise it by 0.5 listen for 5-10 mts then step away for a couple of minutes. Come back and listen to it, now raise it another 0.5 and so on. Your ears will tell when you get there.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Made the suggested changes just now before I go into work. I will do some listening after work, and throughout the weekend. I do have a busy weekend ahead but I should have some time to listen more at some point. Ill report back once I have time to listen well. Also I just thought about it, but alot of what needs cutting is up in my teeters. Perhaps I should drop them another 0.5db? Help take care of all the frequencies up there maybe? Also I do have a heavy cut at 5k. No wonder it has such a dip


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

First impressions? I normally keep the tweeters 5-6db below the mid bass. Do the eq first and if you still feel the tweets are sharp then cut each by 0.5-1 db. Also as and when you get the time it would be interesting to see the screen shots of L&R eq, just to see how you're getting to your response. Let your ears tell you how much you need at 5. You don't want the sound to get thin while chasing clarity and transparency in the sound. If it thins out and you start losing the low end, or if the sound feels like it is in your face, back up a bit.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok ill keep note on that 5k bit. I'm not finding the tweeters overly sharp any more. They sound pretty nice lately since I toned them down. Ill try and get the Left are right graph up tonight after work. Im curious as well. The reason I cut 5k so heavy is because when I was found my L and R before it looked way too high but when playing together now it's been cut too much for sure. First impressions? Not a huge difference. Tonight ill go on a drive and go through my test songs, as well as some randoms to see if I can pick out anything. I usually find the differences are more pronounced when the volume goes up a bit. That's usually how I listen. Loud


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Haven't done a ton of listening yet tonight but here is my left and right and full system measurements after the most recent changes. Still sounding pretty nice. Need to listen more though and I will and when I do I will post up what I'm hearing. 

Right side 


Left side 


Full system


Edit: did some listening now. One thing I seem to be missing is impact. Everything is nice and smooth. Detail seems nice. Hearing some effects on bass guitar in songs I've listened to plenty of times yet never noticed such a small detail. But it sounds as if everything might be too smooth? If you get what I mean. Sounds like I'm missing some impact or snap on snare and drums, like they're too soft yet the bottom sounds pretty full.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Save the settings that you had before post # 440 as you baseline. As you tune you will hit points where everything is messed up and you feel lost. Go back to the baseline and start over. As the sound gets better so will the baseline. 

Remember I'm not sitting in your car and listening so suggested cuts are only approximations based on the fairly rough rta. Your ears are telling you cut something a bit more than you should have and lost that bite. What frequency do you think that is? You also need more dynamics, what do you need to raise? Hint: the answer is on this page. 

When you cut or boost on your eq do it one frequency at a time. So if I've suggested a cut of 0.5 db at say 3khz, first raise that frequency 1db and then cut it by 2 db and then come back to the starting point. do this a few times and then make that 0.5 db cut. Try to make an aural picture in your mind how a cut and boost at this frequency affects the overall sound, what part of the sound changes and how.

You want to build a strong aural picture of what a boost or cut at each frequency does. Once you have this it's easy to pick whats wrong and then correct accordingly, but this takes time.

TLDR : So what do you think you need to do to get more dynamics and bite?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I'm thinking, based on what I read I should raise 1-1.6k to get that little extra bite in the sound?? It's strange because the rta shows I have plenty at 1k, and no huge dips between 1.2-1.6k. I assume this is where trusting my ears is important? It would be really nice if you could hear my car haha but even still I think the tuning is going nicely. Ill go back to my most previous preset and work that 1-1.6k area over and report back. Hopefully that's all that's needed. Left and right side isn't looking as bad as it was before though. Guess that a good thing right?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Notice how 1.6 when measured for L or R is very different from combined? Combined is what you're hearing. Leaving aside the absolute numbers from the rta, I would say that you have a 4-5db drop from 1-1.6. 

You need a 4-5 db roll off from 1-4 khz so your response should have a downward slope here. What the rta does show is that 90% of that drop is happening under an octave. When tuning for a slope try and keep response at adjacent 1/3 oct within a db of each other. 

Save your current settings and go back to the PN tracks. Listen to the tracks between 1-4 khz. You will probably notice a sharp drop from 1-2khz and then flat (equally loud) to 4. Cut 1 khz by 0.5 db but leave 4 unchanged. Now use the eq to get get a smooth roll off from 1-4. So try boosting 1.25 by 0.5 db, 1.6 by 1 db, 2 & 2.5 by 0.5. Now listen is it smoother? If you still notice a sharp dip somewhere, raise that frequency a bit.

You have to do this by ear, keep in mind you're working in the region where our ears are most sensitive so a 0.5 db cut or boost is going to sound like a lot. Keep taking breaks every 5 mts or so. Oh and keep your head position fixed when you do this. Movement of the head will cause the sound to to jump from side to side and you will lose track of louder/softer. Flip through the tracks with a still head, listen to the change, make adjustments on the eq, listen again. 

Once you feel you have a smooth transition go back and listen to music. How does it sound now? If you now start hearing another defect, chances are you've resolved the bite issue for now.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Did a little playing, is this what you mean buy roll off? It seems ok from 2.5k till 6.3-8k. Really struggling to knock that down. It's the left side that's playing that so loud. I brought up 2-3 a little bit and its really showing on the rta


Going to go for a little drive and listen see how it sounds

Edit: after listening, sure sounds mellow uptop. Harness is at a minimum but to describe how everything's sounding, dull would be the word. Sounds like i EQ'd the fun out of my system. One thing I'm really noticing is female vocals are tending to drift alot more then male vocals. I am noticing the more vocal range the singer has, the more drift I have. Singers who keep it in a specific range tend to be more center. I assume that'll be fixed when L and R EQ comes into play but I don't think I'm ready for that one. One step at a time right! I tried PN from 1-4 but I find it hard to hear a noticeable difference going 1/3 octave with the PN it sounds very similar across the board. Not a good tuning day.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Raise the following

800 hz + 0.5 db
1.25 khz + 0.5 db
1.6 khz + 1 db
2 khz + 0.5 db
5khz + 1 db

If it improves the sound try playing in the 1-2 range some more. If you overcook the 1-2 khz range the sound will get tinny. Vocal loose focus because of L/R issues. Will add address that when you feel you are ready.

PS - You are doing a great job in describing how it sounds, keep going.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok I will try those tomorrow and report back. It's nice to hear im doing something right, even if it is just describing the sound! Good motivation thanks! Hopefully those changes help get some life back into the sound.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Can you also post the screen shots of the L and R eq on your H800?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Sure No problem. I can do that tonight. One problem I think I'm going to run into, I'm running out of EQ bands. I've been using the 10band parametric instead of the graphic. I've always heard parametric is better but all bands are in use now


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Oh man I feel so stupid for not asking you earlier what you were using. Yeah, put it on GEQ. There's much love for the PEQ on here but imho in a car a 31 band GEQ is better than a 10 band PEQ. A geq gives you better control and flexibility when you're looking at 1/3 oct resolution. It's more time consuming than a PEQ but well worth the effort.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok GEQ it is!! But i will lose all the current EQ adjustments. I guess starting fresh is never bad right??


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Save the settings and lets start a fresh with geq. Can you list out what peq filters you're currently running? Frequency, Q and how much you've cut. Let's see if we can translate this into a rough geq map and then go from there.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So with the most recent EQ changes it sounds like I got some life back into my system!! It's sounding really nice again. More snap and tight punch. Anyways here are my current PEQ settings 

PEQ settings 
left side
80hz -1db Q=5
125hz -2db Q=5
220hz -2.5db Q=5
400hz +1db Q=5
1.2k +1.5db Q=5
2.2k -3.5db Q=3
5k -2.5db Q=5
8k -6db Q=3
6.3k -6db Q=5

Right side 
80hz -1db Q=5
125hz -2db Q=5
220hz -2.5db Q=5
400hz +1db Q=5
1k -1.5db Q=5
2.2k -3.5db Q=3
5k -4.5db Q=5
8k -6db Q=3
6.3k -5db Q=5

I will switch to GEQ when you give me the word to based off seeing my current EQ settings. So for now I will enjoy what I currently have. 

Went on a drive tonight, listened with the most recent settings and so far I'm liking this alot. Much more dynamic! Can't wait to see how dialed in I can get this with using the graphic EQ!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Most of the Q's on your PEQ are at 5, which means you're practically using a GEQ. It also makes it easier to make a GEQ map which you can then input. Ok, give me sometime and I should have something for you by this evening my time i.e. Monday morning your time.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Once you switch to GEQ enter the following settings and that should bring you to the ballpark of where you are currently. Once you have dialed in these settings measure the system and lets see if there are any major deviations from the previous readings. Frequencies not given below are set to 0.

*EQ Left*

80: -1 
125: -2 
160: -0.5
200: -2.5
315: +0.25 if you can, 0 if you can't.
400: +1
1k: +0.5
1.25k: +1.5
2k: -1.5
2.25k: -3.5
3k: -1.5
5k: -3
6k: -6
8k: -6
10k: -1

*EQ Right*

80: -1 
125: -2 
160: -0.5
200: -2.5
315: +0.25 if you can, 0 if you can't.
400: +1
1k: -1.5
1.25k: -0.5
1.6k: -0.5
2k: -1.5
2.5k: - 3.5
3k: -1
4k: -1
5k: - 5
6k: -6
8k: -6
10k: -1

In case someones wondering how I got to the above, here's the link


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok I have entered those settings now. Time for some listening and measuring. Ill post up my findings tonight. Curious as to how this will sound and look on the rta


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So this is what the rta is looking like after the switch to GEQ and entering the settings you mentioned 



How does it sound? Well pretty good actually. I haven't had a ton of time to listen as I entered the new settings just before work and only listened a bit now but first impressions, it doesn't sound bad that's for sure. After some more detailed and in depth listening I will have more for you. That 6.3k seems to be sticking out still. I think the only way to kill that would be to drop the tweeters 0.5db or so each. Must have something to do with where they're installed. One thing ill note, it seems I may be lacking a little snap, or crack coming from the tips of drums and the snare. The bottom end is definitely full though. Also I'm not noticing sharpness from the high end anymore. Guess that's all been EQ'd away!! Finally. For now anyways.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Now that I have control on your eq, are you up for a tuning road trip? 

I will make the first lot of changes, take a listen and take a reading. From there on I will keep suggesting changes based on what you're hearing and the rta. Along the way we will also address some L/R issues without your having to listen to PN, I know how much you love that.

But first, can you do something about the resolution on the rta? See how it's in steps of 9 db (36-45db etc) can you make that 3 or 5 from the settings menu? If you need to buy an upgrade it would be a good investment.

If you're up for it, lets start with a L / R / Combined reading at the best resolution you can manage.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

SQnut, Ive been following this thread and learning and quietly tweaking according to your suggestions and his curve and not to derail, but do you think you can suggest some tweaks to my curve as well? I took this with my sub half volume because it was late.










I dont have a 31 band eq, I have a parametric 9 band on my deck and 3 variable parametric adjustments for the tweeter section and 3 for the woofer section on my kac-x4r. I do not have l&R EQ abilities. Delay is pretty dialed in.

Thanks in advance and I do not mean to hijack, just curious.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

How's this for res? 



I'm very eager to get tuning. Can't wait to see what you have in store for me!
This is also the best I could get it on my phone. I hope it's good enough. If my mic worked on my laptop I'm sure that would be more ideal but will this be ok? It's in 1db steps. I was also thinking I might turn the sub down or off while we work on the front end cause with this scaling it's hard to fit everything on with the sub going through the roof and my high end being alot lower. Would that be a good idea?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tyroneshoes said:


> SQnut, Ive been following this thread and learning and quietly tweaking according to your suggestions and his curve and not to derail, but do you think you can suggest some tweaks to my curve as well? I took this with my sub half volume because it was late.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's OP's thread, I'm just the gopher here.

My $0.02, if anyone wants to participate in the discussion or ask questions, go right ahead. But posting RTA's can diffuse OP's thread. Start a thread and I'll be gald to help if I can.

Ref your rta, how does it sound? Cut 250 by 1.5 db at Q=2. Raise 600 1 db at Q=2. How does it sound now? A little less fat and clearer?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> How's this for res? This is also the best I could get it on my phone. I hope it's good enough. If my mic worked on my laptop I'm sure that would be more ideal but will this be ok? It's in 1db steps.


Now we're talking!! That's great.



tgotovac said:


> I was also thinking I might turn the sub down or off while we work on the front end cause with this scaling it's hard to fit everything on with the sub going through the roof and my high end being a lot lower. Would that be a good idea?


If you are boosting the levels on the sub from the h800 back it off to 0. There's way too much bass happening in that RTA.



tgotovac said:


> I'm very eager to get tuning. Can't wait to see what you have in store for me!


We will move in small steps. That will give your ears time to slowly settle into the new sound. I'll give one set of changes, listen to it for a day and post your thoughts. I'll come back with mini tweaks, again listen to it for a day and then we will repeat. After 1-2 cycles you will begin to realize where we're headed. 

With the same resolution post L and R as well. Post L, R, and combined in one post. More than the rta, I'm counting on your ears. Remember that exercise about hearing the difference between ref sound and the car? Whenever you have 15 mts to spare pick a song and go back and forth between your home speakers and the car and pick any 5 differences. I'd be interested to see what differences you pick. You will have to go back and forth between the two sounds a few times before things start standing out, but it should be easier than listening to PN differences.


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## scotiach (Apr 5, 2015)

Just wanted to say I'm loving this process and it's really helping me to start tweaking my own still basic set-up. Thanks sqnut.

tgotovac - I might have missed it but what phone app are you using? I can't change the db scale on the one I grabbed.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I don't have the sub boosted at all it's volume is at 6 out of 15 for sub volume control on my h800. Ill turn it down for the next measurement. Ill post up left and right, and a better full system measurement later tonight and we can go from there. 

Scotiach- I'm using the studio six app called audio tools. It's not free but it's pretty good. Even allowed me to use the mic calibrate file for my Dayton mic which is cool.


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## scotiach (Apr 5, 2015)

Thanks. I have grabbed that suite - it's only 5 bucks more than the one I bought before, and has a load more features. 

Keep at it tgotovac - I'm sure there are others like me that are learning from your pain


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I plan to keep at it! With the help and guidance of mr. Sqnut I'm sure thins will be sounding fantastic eventually. Really like how this is going so far and am very excited to continue on!


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So I took some more measurements just now with the sub at 0 out of 15. It still plays but it's very quiet. 

Left 



Right


Full



Looking at these curves with the high res on the rta is making my curve look very ugly. The sound is still pretty good though other then what I mentioned before. Tops of drums could be a little more full. Little more snap to snares. And a little more punch would be nice. Long bass notes are no issue, and of course sub bass is NO issue. I have plenty of that it seems. So now I will await further instructions on how to continue on! 

So after a little listening tonight I've noticed something about vocals. They seem to be sounding slightly...grainy? Or hallow maybe? It's hard to describe the sound exactly but it's as if something is missing from the vocals? Maybe something from the top? As reference and incase this helps, both mids are receiving around the same power and set at 0db in my dsp, left tweeter is down -4.5db, right is down -5db. Just thought you should know that


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

No suggested tweaks for today?? I will continue to listen on and update back with anything else I notice!!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

There's something funky going on in those rta readings. Could be a measurement thing too.

I'm just going to go with the combined response above 2khz. Below 2khz I am correcting for for overall tonality and L/R balance in these settings. I am assuming that the eq is as we set it was when we switched to geq.Apply the settings below to whatever is already applied. So if 5khz on the left is set to -3 and I suggest + 1 below, just raise it to -2. Frequencies not mentioned are set to 0.

EQ Left

60: +1
100: +1.5
125: -1
160: -2
200: -2
250: -2
300: -1
400: +1
500: -1
600: -1
800: +1
1k: +1
1.25k: -1
1.6k: 0
2k: -0.5
2.5k: -1
3k: -1
5k: +1

EQ Right:

60: +1
100: -0.5
125: -2
160: +1.5
200: +1
250: -0.5
300: -0.5
400: +1
500: +2
1k: -1
1.25k: -1.5
1.6k: -1
2k: +0.5
2.5k: -0.5
3k: -1
4k: -0.5
5k: +2.5

Try that, how does it sound? I can't do anything above 5 khz cause I have noting to go on. I guess we will handle it after I figure once you tell me how it sounds. Bump up the sub volume for a little more low end.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I will apply those settings tonight and give it a listen. I too am noticing how strange left and right are looking. One question, when measuring L and R, should I be moving the mic to the side that's playing, so if playing left only should the mic be at my left ear? Or should I be holding the mic center at all times?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Typically, measure left side at left ear and vice versa. But if you measured both sides at one point that's fine for now. Will await your feedback.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok that is how I've been doing it so far. Made the changes. First impressions after a short listening session, it sounds way better vocals are nice and clear, bass lines have cleaned up, snap and impact on drums is better. Measured again. Still looks funny though. 

Left



Right



Full


The high end has really filled up. Right side is looking a little strange though for sure but it does sound good. There's a nice sizzle on cymbals and they've been brought out alot more. Not noticing any harshness which is good! Sounds pretty full in the vocal department but after further listening I'm sure ill be able to detect more defects. 


More listening tonight: mid bass mud has been reduced significantly!! At all volumes even the highest the bloat seems to have decreased alot. Really liking that. Vocals sound nice and full and very pronounced. As mentioned before, cymbals are far more present, very upfront. No harshness detected from the top end(yet). One thing about the sizzle in the cymbals, although it sounds good I don't think it's proper. Its hard to describe but almost like there's too much tsssstssstsss sound if that makes sense? Only way I can describe it haha sorry if that's no good. I have noticed a big difference in overall sound though and it's great. Awaiting further instruction!


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So after some serious playing around tonight...I managed to actually get my Dayton mic to fully work with REW on a laptop. Would it maybe be more ideal to use that setup for measuring or is the phone app working ok for you?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> So after some serious playing around tonight...I managed to actually get my Dayton mic to fully work with REW on a laptop. Would it maybe be more ideal to use that setup for measuring or is the phone app working ok for you?


:thumbsup: Let's switch to the Dayton and REW.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

tgotovac said:


> So after some serious playing around tonight...I managed to actually get my Dayton mic to fully work with REW on a laptop. Would it maybe be more ideal to use that setup for measuring or is the phone app working ok for you?


Go to youtube and check out one by one video's by Kyle Ragsdale... It got me off the block learning REW. Indispensable! I owe Kyle a cervesa of his choosing for these vids.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok thanks ill look that up. 
Since we'll be using rew now is there anything I need to know about it? I got my mic calibration file in there, I have the resolution to go in 2 db steps, and I have the graph showing bars instead of the line. Any other tricks or tips for me?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

I haven't measured in a very long time but Han has a a few good threads on measuring. Maybe someone can chime in......


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Yea I went through his first timers guide and it helped me set everything up. I should be good to go with REW!! Will take some measurements tonight and post up for you. Should be nice having a proper rta setup! I am very excited


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

so after measuring with REW tonight, this is what I have to show for it. I think I set everything up properly. this is what its looking like

left



right



full


do these measurments look proper? to me they look very different then when using the app. either rew is wrong, or the app was off, or I didn't do something properly in rew. either way should I continue using rew? or go back to the iPhone app I have been using?


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

Admittedly, I'm late to respond here, but why oh why would anyone ever rely on an RTA to tune a system?

Loudness perception of the ear is SO different from the results of a calibrated microphone...

Over the years, my RTA gets less and less use...

I tune with test tones and music which I am familiar with...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Did you select the bar or line option? Try selecting the line. For some reason it's not measuring anything over 7k, you may want to check the settings for this. The measurements look ok since they are fairly consistent with what you measured with the phone app.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I give it another go tonight. Not sure why there's nothing above 7k. One thing I noticed is there's alot of jumping around when I measure with rew. The bars tend to move up and down alot and don't really settle


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Your graphs are smoothing at 1/48 oct. Set this to 1/6 octave. Are you measuring with normal music or full range PN? Use the line option i/o bar. The fluctuations are accounted for when you average the readings. Moving a mic even over a small area will give fluctuations.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ill try and figure the smoothing out. I've been using full range pink noise and trying to keep every measurement as consistent as possible with mic placement. Ill try again tonight and hopefully it's proper this time. Wanting to get some tuning done haha 

Question, when measuring left and right, I'm supposed to be muting the opposite side right? Ie. if measuring left mute right and if measuring right mute left correct?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> One thing about the sizzle in the cymbals, although it sounds good I don't think it's proper. Its hard to describe but almost like there's too much tsssstssstsss sound if that makes sense? Only way I can describe it haha sorry if that's no good. I have noticed a big difference in overall sound though and it's great. Awaiting further instruction!





tgotovac said:


> Wanting to get some tuning done haha


While you figure out the mic and measurement here's your daily tuning fix. You still have a bit of bloat in what you're hearing. Notice how 200-250 on the combined reading is hotter than 100. 200 needs to be at least 2 db down from 100 db for a low end that is clean and not bloated. So, I'm going to try and fix that. Get ready to lose some more bloat. 

125hz: cut left -2.5 db
160hz: cut right side -1 db
200hz: cut left -2.5 db
500hz: +1 db on both sides. Be careful with 500, if the sound gets ****** or telephone like, you know you've over cooked 500.

Cymbals have presence which is the tssssttssst you're hearing around 3khz. Try cutting 0.5 db both sides at 3khz if it gets better cut another 0.5 and evaluate.

Cut both L&R 1 db at 16khz and 0.5db at 20khz. That should make the sound less brittle and help a bit with the low end that's gone.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> Question, when measuring left and right, I'm supposed to be muting the opposite side right? Ie. if measuring left mute right and if measuring right mute left correct?


That's right.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

The Interactive Frequency chart is very good when you want correlate what you're hearing with a particular frequency of range. http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok thanks for my daily fix! Will enter those settings and report back as well as get rew figured out


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

so I applied those changes, and ive noticed the low end has really lightened up. its even cleaner now down there! one thing ive noticed is the high end has become more present, the sizzle on the cymbals has come down a bit but I feel like there might still be too much of something uptop. I didn't do very much listening yet so I don't have too much to describe just yet. I took more measurements with rew tonight but it still isn't picking up past 7K it just steady drops down to -10db or so when compared to everything else. I don't think theres any limits set within the program, and im using the same PN ive been using the whole time so im not sure whats going on here. very strange. this is what the graph is looking like with the lines instead of the bars. is this better for you?


left



right



full


what do you think about this ?

Edit: I think I maybe have fixed the issue I was having above 7k. Will measure tomorrow and put up some hopefully proper graphs!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> so I applied those changes, and ive noticed the low end has really lightened up. its even cleaner now down there! one thing ive noticed is the high end has become more present, the sizzle on the cymbals has come down a bit but I feel like there might still be too much of something uptop.


Cut 10kz by -0.5 db on both left and right
Cut 12khz by -1 db left and right
Cut 16 & 20khz by -0.5db left and right

That should help with some of the excess up top. I think you attenuate the sub when you measure. Keep the sub at normal listening levels while measuring. You can play with the sub levels a bit just to ensure that you have about a 10db roll off from ~ 40hz to 200hz. 



tgotovac said:


> Edit: I think I maybe have fixed the issue I was having above 7k. Will measure tomorrow and put up some hopefully proper graphs!


I think we are getting there with the graphs..........almost there. Will await the new reading before proceeding. Keep listening and picking stuff. You're doing good.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I've applied those settings. Listening will commence after work! I will measure again, and this time I should have past 7k up as well!! As long as that line is ok for you, and the resolution is ok I think I have rew setup nicely


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

hey, so nightly update but I don't have any graphs today as I didn't get a chance to measure since I got rew working(I hope anyways). I did however have a chance to get some more listening done today. biggest difference: reduction in mid bass mud!! the difference is huge compared to what I was dealing with before, id even go as far to say that im not getting any mud at all!! I was always worried id loose bass guitar lines buy cutting that 160-250hz range but it seems bass lines have become more detailed and clearer for sure. high end is sounding great as well. not noticing any harsh at all really. cymbals while still present and upfront seem to have lost that brittle tsssss sound that they had. the sound overall is much...lighter id have to say. less bass heavy yet bass is still there. one thing id have to complain about though is that with the mids more controlled, it seems the sub blending has been lost a tad, perhaps do to the issue I think Im still having at 80hz, either phase issue or TA needs more dialing in but I think we should leave sub issues till later(unless you suggest otherwise). I like moving in small steps like this. focusing on front end, then L and R EQ and everything else. I think TA is dialed in pretty well but could probably use further tweaking but I don't want to mess with that anymore...for now! also on a positive note, imaging seems to have improved a bit, maybe its in my head but It does seem better since the most recent few EQ changes. im sure it could be even better. Vocals are sounding pretty good, full, less grainy, but airy for sure. that's a word I could use to describe my current sound, airy. I don't dislike it, but im not sure its right either. perhaps the cutting in the lower end is giving more to the high end? if that's possible. either way for now id say im pretty happy with the sound. I will try to have some graphs up tomorrow and I shouldn't have any issue getting them up. so far so good id say!! will be awaiting further directions, unless of course you're still awaiting more graphs. will have those tomorrow. I feel like good progress is being made!!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Getting a sub to integrate with a mid bass means you're hearing the sub from above your dash (upfront) and that the entire low end is a seamless part of the whole sound you're hearing. In tuning terms the former is down to timing and the latter is down to the response around the xover point. Say if you're crossing sub and mid at 70 then you're looking at response between say 50-100. It depends on the slopes you're using, we're on steep slopes so this zone isn't very wide. 

Let's look at this zone from all three drivers that are playing it, your sub and the two mids. Let's look at them one at a time and then see what's happening in the combined response. Before you do the next set of measurements, set the sub level to where you normally have it when listening to music, now measure. Measure the following:

1. sub only 
2. left mid only
3. right mid
4. Left - sub+mid+tweet
5. Right- sub+mid+tweet
6. Combined response all drivers playing

This may take some time and I'm sorry to inconvenience you, but it will give me and you a solid base to understand what's happening and therefore what we need to do.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

I'm not sure what airy sound means. The term is used so often and most times with different meaning. To me airy sound just means that you're hearing the space the recording was made in. Good recordings done in large studios will give you a sense of space, that is what I know as airy sound. 

Firstly it has to be there in the recording and in a car if you hear that 'air' then your response and timing are right. We're just starting off but someday you will get there. I know that for a fact because you're hooked to the incremental improvements, just like I was. 

Listen to the vocals carefully, do you hear a touch of 'aahhh'? That is not airy sound. See, you getting good at picking defects. Keep using your ears and keep doing the ref sound vs car sound thingy.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok I will continue to listen on!! And yes I am getting very hooked on the incremental steps. I really like how this is going. I will measure everything as you've instructed me to. I have tonight and all day tomorrow so that shouldn't be a problem. It's no inconvenience. Gotta do it for great sound so I will do it!

Space!!! That's a good way to describe the sound. I feel like my stage is wider and like there's space between the vocals and the instruments playing. Not sure if this is good or not but it sounds nice that's for sure. The sound is no longer bloated and weighed down. I will continue listening to my reference sound vs my car. Really curious as to how my measurements will look. Should have plenty of graphs for you tomorrow. Until then I will listen on!!! I am enjoying this learning/tuning process


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Tried to take some more measurements just now. All the ones you asked for. Still having that dip after 7k. No idea how but it's very hot and humid right now so sitting in the car and measuring I'm just melting here. Will wait till it cools off a bit tonight for more measurements. I tried my app again and it too showed a steep roll off after 7k. Maybe that 6db cut at 8 is too much? I'm not sure the issue is with rew anymore. I played pink noise and an 8k tone out of my phone a rew picked up the 8k. It's picked up till about 9.5k which is probably where my phone speaker rolls off. I'm going to try it on my home speakers. If they show above 7k then I know it's not rew. Sub and mid measurements should be accurate though. Ill post up everything today so you can see what's going on.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

so this is what I measured today. im hoping this is ok for you to see whats going on. for reference I measured my home speakers and they played WELL above 7k. I guess its something to do with how much I cut at 8k which is -6db on both sides. one thing im continuing to notice is the decrease in bloated mids. they're sounding really good. listening at home vs in the car I notice the car is lacking some sparkle uptop compared to my home system, but at home cymbals sound very brittle compared to my car. something must be going on above 7k in my car causing such a huge drop. anyways heres what I have for you today:

Sub Only


left mid



left side



right mid



right side 



full


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Any tweaks for me today or do you want some more measurements first? I'm going to try a measurement with my defeat on in my dsp to see if the 8k and up area fills up again. See what's going on there.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

On Your H800 make sure you haven't band passed your tweeters. The tweeters should only have a HP. If the rew measured ok at home, then it's got to be something in the way the H800 is setup. Just something to check.

The charts are at 1/6 octave resolution? Can you post the screen shot of the L & R eq on the H 800? Just to see where we are on the eq.

125hz: R -2
160 hz: R -1
300hz: R -1
400hz: L&R -1
600hz: L -1, R -0.5
1.25khz: L & R -0.5
2khz: L -1.5 R -0.5


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

So I tried to take some more measurements tonight, but my mic seems to be having issues lately. It's being extremely inconsistent and is showing a massive dip at 1.2k-1.6k which is strange cause that range was very full before. I haven't applied the most recent changes you've posted as I've been trying to trouble shoot these measurement problems. I'm having a strong feeling the mic is to blame at this point. I plan to do some further testing but as of now I think this mic is dead or at least malfunctioning. Even on my phone app it's measuring strange. Sub range seems to be extremely high while everything past 160hz isn't showing up at all or it shows up very very low when I'm playing my PN track. I'm going to investigate further tomorrow but as of now I'm pretty annoyed with this. I felt some good progress was being made now this stupid mic. Maybe it's time I suck it up and drop the cash on a decent USB mic, maybe the Dayton umm6?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Yes the readings are very inconsistent. I noticed that last night, that's why my tweaks were limited. I'll wait till you find a solution. Meanwhile, did you check to make sure your tweeters are HP and not band passed?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Yea I checked my tweeter settings and there's no LPF on them, only the HP. I think maybe the mic has been on its way out for a little while now. I'm pretty sure it's dead so I've started looking at other options. The Dayton umm-6 is looking to be my best bet. It'll probably work best with REW and be alot more consistent then the little phone mic.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Maybe until my new mic arrives we can work on one issue I picked out just going by my ears? Or do you need the graph as well?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

What's the issue?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

I'm noticing vocals seem to have a slight hollow sound. Almost like the singer is singing in a tin can room or something.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

tgotovac said:


> I'm noticing vocals seem to have a slight hollow sound. Almost like the singer is singing in a tin can room or something.


Cut 0.5-1 db in the 500-800 zone. First try 0.5 db cut one frequency at a time see which frequency helps most, cut that by 1 db now try cutting the others by 0.5db.

Fill in a little in the 300-400 zone maybe +0.5 to 1 db. How does that sound?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Did it help?


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Yes it did!!! I did some listening the past 2 days. Not as much as I would have liked but I did listen. I found dropping 800hz about 0.5db helped the most. Pretty happy with how my setup is sounding as it stands. Few other things that need work though. Really want to get my new mic in ASAP. I was listening to some stuff today with a buddy, who also has an ok setup(that I installed and "tuned") which is pretty basic but sounds nice, and even he mentioned that my system is sounding like a whole other level of SQ compared to his, and even mine before. I like the positive feedback!! We must be doing something right!! I will listen some more tomorrow, and hopefully my ears are ok for the time being till I get my new mic. Then we can get some hopefully very accurate measurements!!


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Question regarding tuning, what is it most people are lacking when they say "I need more treble"? Is there a specific frequency range that people consider treble? I had a friend ask me the other day if I could turn the treble up a bit in his car. EQ is very limited on that setup. 3 band parametric is all. What is considered treble?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

On your typical amp or receiver the bass and treble are frequencies decided by the manufacturer. Typically bass is somewhere in the 50-100 hz range and treble is ~10 khz.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok perfect thanks!!

Been doing lots of listening and really liking how my system is sounding. This is probably the best I've ever had it so far thanks to your help!


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