# what benifits do a bigger voice coil have for a midbass driver



## mark620 (Dec 8, 2010)

What effect does voice coil size have on speaker....

I am looking for a new mid my choices are-
seas u18rnx-39mm voice coil-8 ohm
seas rw165- 39mm voice coil 4 ohm
morel mw166-75mm voice coil 4 or 8 ohm

What is the bigger voice coil going to do for sound vs small voice coil drivers...


I have another thread in "help me choose eqt" (help me choose a new mid

It has all the spec of these woofer...Thanks


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## thomasluke (Jun 10, 2011)

Heat dissipation.


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## Sine Swept (Sep 3, 2010)

Power handling


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Everything else being equal, the driver with the larger voice coil will have higher power handling. One thing I like about small voice coils is that the driver generally has wider bandwidth and lower distortion, because big voice coils increase inductance and inductance goes hand in hand with distortion. 

Basically, I prefer to use a driver with a voice coil that's big enough but not too big.


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## thomasluke (Jun 10, 2011)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Everything else being equal, the driver with the larger voice coil will have higher power handling. One thing I like about small voice coils is that the driver generally has wider bandwidth and lower distortion, because big voice coils increase inductance and inductance goes hand in hand with distortion.
> 
> Basically, I prefer to use a driver with a voice coil that's big enough but not too big.


So for a 6.5" driver in a two way configuration, How big of a voice coil would like?


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Don't get caught up in the marketing gimmicks. The diameter of the coil does not fully characterize the voice coil performance in full. The Morels merely have a larger diameter, but in return they are shorter, 2 layers and who knows how well they are put together. The Seas at least have IEC ratings, as problematic as these standards are at least they are a lot better than the unknown quality of the Morel. 

Personally I stay away from Morels, they are overpriced, overmarketed, and mediocre in quality at best. That same woofer you are looking at died in my car in a few minutes. It's the only woofer I destroyed almost instantly. The coil unwound itself in the gap. 

Seas on the other hand builds its coils like Patrick wants, just big enough. I've overheated many Seas coils, you can smell the coil as it nears the edge, but they never burned on me. I just backed off the knob. One Prestige 10" did unwind the coil too, but after a month or so of beating, they were not built as well as the Excel units. This was obvious is craftsmanship too. They may export labor for the Prestige overseas, I don't know. 

Neither of your choices are really beefy coil wise. Danish drivers seem really good at keeping cool and inductance low. The SLS 6.5" probably has the beefiest coil I've seen, and it is rated at 50W, go figure. I have 320w on tap for each and I've bottomed them out with a 80hz 24db filter, which means they were getting loads of power, no smell, no stress, no obvious power compression. 

I've come to really like underrated speakers like the Danish ones and hate the stupidity of 1000w ratings and efficiency claims to fool the customer. Morel is not getting any of my money ever again.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

I've read in some midbass drivers with huge coils like my Dyns, the purpose is not so much power handling but to attach the coil closer to the center of the cone instead of the bottom (or whatever terms you would use to describe the attachment location). They take tons of power with ease, I've run 300w to each and they never missed a beat and sounded great but I don't think that's the sole reason for the large coil. The magnet is also placed in the center of the VC which might help in packaging.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Does it help with packaging? The coil is 3" plus the cup, plus spokes on the outside. It seems at least 4" wide. By comparison look at the Seas Hexadym motors, less than 2" in diameter:









That huge dustcap also needs to decompress which make a pole vent a necessity, which adds more space to the depth requirement. 

The only reason Dyns or Morels may be shallower is because they don't have that much excursion. Otherwise something without a pole vent and reversed motor would maximize depth, and a neo motor with a small diameter coil would maximize width. Quite the opposite of what a Dyn or Morel is. Here's a motor that minimizes depth, purpose built, and you still get good excursion:


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## mark620 (Dec 8, 2010)

^^cvjoint Thanks for the breakdown PPl like you are the reason why we should all ask more questions....Its nice to hear from someone who used the drivers...I see your using the sls what are you crossing it at...I am guessing your happy with it looks like you have played witha few drivers...


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

I'm crossing at 80hz 24db now. Every now and then it does get near the limit but it does well enough not to raise it further. I started with 63hz, it sounds better at low power but runs out of excursion too often this low. I am now trying out the Scan Speak Illuminator and the Tympany LATs as a replacement.


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## Jonny Hotnuts (Mar 15, 2011)

On the negative of larger VC would be decreased efficiency due to higher mass of coil and former....I run Dynas that have a 3" coil on a 4.5" cone on the 6.5" drivers. I personally feel that with the selection of higher watt SQ amps out there along with a driver that can take 500+watt snaps are a better choice then small amp/small coil with less power handling. Even if it means loosing a few DB in efficiency. 

~JH


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

mark620 said:


> ^^cvjoint Thanks for the breakdown PPl like you are the reason why we should all ask more questions....Its nice to hear from someone who used the drivers...I see your using the sls what are you crossing it at...I am guessing your happy with it looks like you have played witha few drivers...


Cvjoint hates Dyns, it's a known fact around here. The bad will be pointed out, the good will be ignored, there will never be any credit when it's due. It's just the way it is so take that into consideration when getting advice. He's very knowledgeable, much more so than myself but extremely biased when it comes to some brands. It was my fault, I never should have mentioned the name but it probably would have been brought up eventually when talking about large voice coils.




cvjoint said:


> Does it help with packaging? The coil is 3" plus the cup, plus spokes on the outside. It seems at least 4" wide. By comparison look at the Seas Hexadym motors, less than 2" in diameter:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was not aware that air space behind a midbass which is likely getting mounted in a door is an issue. The Dyns are only 2.6" deep, I think most of us can spare that air space behind the driver and I doubt there is any car on the planet that would accept one of these speakers but have a flat surface directly behind them that would block the vent. IMO, it's a non issue. There's only 1.8" of speaker hanging out into the door with the baffle.

Seas rw165- 145mm mounting diameter 
78mm deep 
110mm magnet diameter. 
Le-.45
Xmech- 9.5mm
88.5 2.83v

Seas u18rnx- 145mm mounting diameter 
76mm deep
99mm magnet diameter. 
Le-.25
Xmech- 11mm
88db

Morel- 160mm mounting diameter 
85mm deep 
88mm motor diameter, smaller than both of the small coil Seas despite it's large 3" VC.
Le-.61
No Xmech listed but xmax is right there with the others.
86db 1w/1m

Dyn 650- 136mm (5.35") mounting diameter
67mm (2.6") deep. 
No dimensions for the motor diameter but it's considerably smaller than the mounting hole, likely less than the Seas mentioned.
Le-.33
Xmech- 10.5mm
89db 2.83v

I'm not seeing anything that shows the large coil has a higher inductance. 

I'm not seeing how the Dyns and Morels are shallow because they're "low excursion". They have just as much throw as 90% of the other midbasses have. 

I'm not seeing how the 3" coils take up more space, in fact, the opposite seems to be true.

I'm not seeing a loss in efficiency.


I hate to have to do this in this thread but every time these speakers are brought up, you impose your opinions and misinformation. Why is it not possible to stay on the topic of the potential positives and negatives of a larger VC without the bias dictating the direction of the thread? You post up a shallow sub and a midbass that's purposely built for a small profile, not representative of what most of us use and smaller than just about ANY other midbass. Hell, my old Infinity Kappa 6.5s had the smallest, lightest motor assembly I've ever seen. It doesn't make them a great speaker. I merely suggested that having the magnet inside of the VC *might* help with packaging. After comparing the Dyn and Morel 3" VC drivers to the Seas listed, I might be right *when talking about non purpose built small profile drivers*.


So back to the topic at hand, it's been said that attaching the VC in the middle of the cone instead of the bottom or center can reduce cone modes. If anything it would seem like there is less stress with the VC having a ton more surface area to attach to. 

Heat dissipation.. 

I see many of the speakers with exceptionally large voice coils list a transient power handling as well, usually very high, around 1,000w. I have no idea if this is marketing or if the large VC allows it to absorb large spike of power without damage. Could it add to the potential dynamics?

Packaging lol.

From Dyn:

The voice coil diameter is exceptionally large at 75 mm, but by using
extremely light aluminum wire wound on a Kapton former, the coil remains
extremely lightweight to enable ultra-fast movement. The large
coil enables the magnet to be positioned inside the coil, *allowing for a
larger and more homogenous magnetic field to be utilized*. In conjunction
with the incredibly powerful, high-efficiency neodymium magnet,
this low-mass driver construction provides excellent transient response,
incredible speed and unmatched precision.

Any comments about the bolded part? Is it sales BS or is there something to it. The magnet seems quite large for a neo. 

This post caught my eye:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/161657-post12.html

*This is a very key advantage. If you drive a dome or cone at its center or edge, you can set up flex modes. Kinda like ringing a bell. If you drive the dome/cone at one of its nodal points, flexure and "bell modes" are greatly reduced.*

*Focal, Audax, and others have been using this technique for years on tweeters. The voice coil is sized to match the nodal points on the dome or cone.

Matthew *

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/162322-post16.html

There is an active thread right now about hi-vi 9" *
Hi-Vi 9" D8.8+

*Where the vc is 100 mm or 4" and they say: The large voice coil diameter allows more uniform cone excitation, thus improving phase and transient characteristics of the driver , resulting in clear and accurate reproduction.

*Look in the specs *

From Morel:

External Voice Coil (EVC): Morel’s voice coil is three times larger than those found in conventional speakers with the same cone
diameter. The extremely light and efficient voice coil optimizes the translation from electrodynamic energy to acoustic energy.

Shallow drivers: As a result of the use of a large coil, Morel is able to deploy especially flat cones. This is significant for reproducing
a flat and transparent sound as well as for maximum dispersion of sound, resulting in a remarkably shallower speaker that
is essential for audio installations.

I'm guessing this is Jacob from Sundown:
sundownz

Re: Advantages to a 3" voice coil on a mid woofer?

Morel, Dynaudio, Hi-Vi, and several other companies use larger coils on midgrange speakers. It certainly helps thermal power handling as I have really slammed on some Morel speakers without issue. It also supposidly helps put more uniform pressure on the cone, which it would, but whether that is audible I'm not sure. I do know that all the speakers I have heard with 3" coils sound excellent 

Another one:

"In speakers designing with them... Increses power handling, dealing with compression and helps keep the movement of the cone linear and assist in keeping a wider area of the cone stiffer through its movement. I agree with HH, it tends to have its shortcommings in the upper midrange detail department on a wide band speaker." 

If the upper midrange detail thing is true, maybe that's why Dyn went with a slightly more normal (but still on the large side) coil for the 430 midrange.

I've also heard that the larger dustcap molded as one piece with the cone helps dispersion off axis.

For illustration, let's look at the one 3" coil in the picture compared to the rest... From Bikinpunk's photos:


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

BuickGN said:


> Cvjoint hates Dyns, it's a known fact around here. The bad will be pointed out, the good will be ignored, there will never be any credit when it's due. It's just the way it is so take that into consideration when getting advice. He's very knowledgeable, much more so than myself but extremely biased when it comes to some brands. It was my fault, I never should have mentioned the name but it probably would have been brought up eventually when talking about large voice coils.
> 
> I hardly care about Dyns, they are not high end enough to be any use to me. Their tags can be annoying from a price/perfomance point of view but it's a free world they can ask whatever they want for them.
> 
> ...


In body of text.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

cvjoint said:


> There is a difference between speaker design and the realization of a design. Most of my points require one can distinguish between the two.


Your point? 


cvjoint said:


> See the pic you posted at the end. Notice the depth of the three drivers and how the linear excursion matches the order Scan>AT>DYN. Why do you care about the 90% of the drivers anyway? If the Scan can outdisplace the DYN 3 to 1 who cares about the 90%. I don't even care about the 99%. Clearly you recognize yourself by now how mediocre the Dyn is.


I don't come close to using all of the displacement the 650 has to offer, why would I care about the speakers that have even more. For some setups, you need the displacement. The point being the Dyns and Morels offer just as much xmax and xmech as any other 6.5 with few exceptions. This of course was in reply to your statement that the two drivers mentioned were only shallower due to limited excursion which is completely false. Read the dimensions, look at the excursion. I know you're capable of such a simple task.

Show me how mediocre Dyn is. You can look at measurements all day but which one unanimously won the double blind listening test? I've heard the Illuminators, how many e650s have you heard?


cvjoint said:


> Perhaps you missed my proof: the hexadym motor is less than 2". Proved.


And? The 3" coil's purpose is not to save space, I never inferred such, though it seems to do an ok job. It's fairly compact compared to other 6.5" speakers with the same xmax. It's typical you would compare them to a driver specifically designed to save space. Again, this was in response to your suggestion that I was wrong in saying having the magnet inside of the coil *might* save space. It was a suggestion, that's all.

I'm waiting on you to google "shallowest 6.5 speaker in the world" and post up how much shallower it is than the Dyns and Morels.


cvjoint said:


> Misinformation? Please do tell. I was on topic for your info. You brought the Dyns in because you are a fanboy. I only mentioned Dyn because you brought it up. By now I think the entire board knows you are using Dyns. Congratulations.


Am I supposed to be ashamed I'm using Dyns? I don't belittle you for all of the cheap junk you swap out every other week. I brought the Dyns in this conversation because...... drumroll......... they have a 3" VC. You're so blinded by your hatred for anything nice that your IQ goes right out the door.

Whoa, the Scanspeak whore is calling ME a fanboy? LOL! Let's see, I was called an ID fanboy until I went to Dyn. I was called a JL fanboy (still get called that from time to time even though I don't own a JL sub) until I went with AE. Yeah, I'm really concerned with titles.

Yes, misinformation. You gave the impression that the Dyns and Morels are only shallow because of limited excursion. I posted actual dimensions of all drivers in question and *gasp* the Dyns are the shallowest and are tied for most excursion. Do you have a response for this? Some people mentioned higher inductance of a larger coil, some mentioned lower efficiency. I posted the numbers taken from the manufacturer's websites, nothing more. I put the facts out there so if people choose to read them, they will see that with the speakers chosen by the OP, the inductance/efficiency is not a valid one.


cvjoint said:


> Are you ever going to give me an argument of your own or just copy and past other people's thoughts and ask me to break them down for you? This is not how you win arguments, despite how much you obviously want to. I will refuse to comment on some things because I can or because there really ISN'T anything there. Prove that any of these things are true, people write a lot of crap on the forums.


None of that was for you, get over yourself nerd. You're not that important. I was throwing ideas out there relating to the topic of this thread for anyone to comment on.


cvjoint said:


> Or maybe the 430 is smaller than the 650 so the coil is sized appropriately. Why must there always be DYN magic lurking behind the the most basic speaker attributes? How you do not see you are biased is beyond me.


Congrats Einstein, you repeated the same thing I said. I was commenting on the quote above where the poster mentioned the large coil can hurt upper midrange performance. Dyn went with a more normal sized coil (in relation to the size of the driver) in their dedicated midrange so his statement might have some validity. 

How would my comments on VC size vs driver size make me bias anyway? You're really stretching reality.

I didn't realize throwing ideas out there was against the rules. I do however suggest you watch your attitude.


cvjoint said:


> I hardly care about Dyns, they are not high end enough to be any use to me. Their tags can be annoying from a price/perfomance point of view but it's a free world they can ask whatever they want for them.


Oh you care about Dyns, you're like an annoying Chihuahua that has to pop off whenever they're brought up and I usually ignore your ankle biting but I had a few minutes to spare tonight. I'm suuuure they're not high end enough for you lol. That's why you don't use them lol.


cvjoint said:


> So now required depth is not an issue because YOU can spare the space. Are you interested in packaging or not? Decide.


Who said depth is not an issue? You're not even good at twisting words around. Mounting depth _is_ an issue. However, how many times have you ever heard of a driver physically fitting in the door of a car but sealing off the vent? I bet the answer is less than one.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

BuickGN said:


> Your point?
> 
> You stated that coil size is not related to inductance. The evidence you posted is anecdotal and here is why. You posted a bunch of drivers with varying inductance and coil sizes. What you did not take into account is that the techniques used to control inductance varies from model to model. One would need to design an experiment to eliminate the bias from these shorting ring implementations or what have you. Aka you need to grab the same driver and make the smallest changes needed to increase coil and check inductance in both samples. Aka the only thing that changes is the topology, not brand, not shorting rings etc. Every implementation of different coil sizes you posted varies in many other ways that bias your estimate. This is just one of many examples in your posts.
> 
> ...


You don't have to worry about me anymore, I won't be answering your posts from now on. Congratulations, you just joined a very exclusive club of 2. Guess what list that is? It's such a shame you waste everybody's time, it's not what you know but rather your character flaws.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

cvjoint said:


> You don't have to worry about me anymore, I won't be answering your posts from now on. Congratulations, you just joined a very exclusive club of 2. Guess what list that is? It's such a shame you waste everybody's time, it's not what you know but rather your character flaws.


I'll get with you when I have a few minutes after class. Again, watch the attitude nerd. You make it personal, we'll have this conversation in person at the next meet.


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## Dr.Telepathy SQ (Nov 17, 2007)

@CVjoint. Ignore him, bro. He is looking for a fight, as he does so often in OT. Nothing but negativity with him. Somewhere he is not content in his own life, therefor looks to offer himself as a sacrificial lamb. 

Enough with the negativity and thread jacking.

Continue on with setting the minds free with knowledge,CVjoint.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Dr.Telepathy SQ said:


> @CVjoint. Ignore him, bro. He is looking for a fight, as he does so often in OT. Nothing but negativity with him. Somewhere he is not content in his own life, therefor looks to offer himself as a sacrificial lamb.
> 
> Enough with the negativity and thread jacking.
> 
> Continue on with setting the minds free with knowledge,CVjoint.


The cheeleading squad has arrived. You don't know the history here, you obviously have no reading comprehension skills to see who started this mess. You're still butthurt from the Zimmerman thread, try to keep it on topic. The negativity starts whenever Dynaudio is mentioned as it did in this thread. I was on topic until the little guy went on his anti-dyn rant once again. Try to stay out of things you know nothing about.


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## mark620 (Dec 8, 2010)

Ok so am I better using boss audio 6.5....................LOL

I did not realize asking about voice coil size could start a mid-lidical debate........

Carry on and thanks for all the info...


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Dr.Telepathy SQ said:


> @CVjoint. Ignore him, bro. He is looking for a fight, as he does so often in OT. Nothing but negativity with him. Somewhere he is not content in his own life, therefor looks to offer himself as a sacrificial lamb.
> 
> Enough with the negativity and thread jacking.
> 
> Continue on with setting the minds free with knowledge,CVjoint.


Thanks! Will do. :beerchug:


Typically the coil I would say is not that central in speaker design, at least not from an importance point of view. The topology comes first. Hi quality designs could use the usual overhung design but something like underhung can linearize the parameters of interest. Underhung designs need a short length to materialize, so the topology would dictate the length and the builder can then specify layers and width to taste to meet the dissipation requirements.

Therefore, the actual size of the coil often times gets dictated by topology and not the other way around. There still usually other ways of increasing the metal count. I would prefer a larger coil usually but in a high quality driver I would expect either a good shorting ring implementation or exotic materials to prevent inductance from going up. It's a balancing act but typically you can specify lots of aluminum or copper in the coil and offset the eddy currents through other means. The shorting rings themselves help in cooling too.


If I had my way, underhung for linearity (not the most linear but hard to **** up), neo magnets to bring static motor force back up, full copper sleeve (like AE), and finish it off with an open spoke design where the frame acts as a heat sink. The Illuminator does all, so it's no small wonder it works so well as a midbass.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

mark620 said:


> Ok so am I better using boss audio 6.5....................LOL
> 
> I did not realize asking about voice coil size could start a mid-lidical debate........
> 
> Carry on and thanks for all the info...


It just stirred up old stuff with a guy who takes himself way too seriously. 
I don't think VC size is all that important in the grand scheme of things, it's the parts as a whole that make the speaker. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages. Some high end speakers like Morel and Dynaudio use a 3" coil, many do not. I wish I could help more but the only speakers I've heard in your list is the Morels and I really liked them.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

the only features it gives you that I'm aware of are:
better thermal handling due to easier dissipation
some ability to control cone breakup*

though, it's relative and there is no steadfast rule that a larger voice coil makes a better behaved cone. it's an art of trade offs.
would be nice to see a company that has developed the same driver but one with a larger voice coil and provide data on the behavior of the driver's modal characteristics.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

ps: Matt, I still need your addy. Sent you two pm's last week and didn't get a reply. Not sure if you saw them or not. 

/OT


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## mark620 (Dec 8, 2010)

BuickGN ..Thanks for the straight up answer I was looking for the ppl who have heard the speakers I was looking into.. I have a budget..I have expectations ..I am not doing a show car..And I am using class d amps..I was in car audio for a long time growing up. A freind had a shop in NJ where I live and I help him over the years with builds that were top comp cars in IASCA.. We played with everything from Oz to Zapco in the 90's so thats where I left off in sound..Half the companies I used in my car back then are gone....I know the dyna's sound great but there out of my range..In the next couple of years when my kids get bigger I will get my Audi rs5 I want and build a comp worhty system...I am going to a ms-8 and 3-way up front now so I am not happy with the mid and that needs to go..I was looking at the cost, sensitivity, qts and vc size trying to find a happy medium. The morel and the seas u18rnx are quality and value as far as I can see...Am I missing some others..?


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

I had the Morel Hybrid Ovation 6 comps in my truck for a while, and they are, to date, my most favorite mid.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

cvjoint said:


> You stated that coil size is not related to inductance. The evidence you posted is anecdotal and here is why. You posted a bunch of drivers with varying inductance and coil sizes. What you did not take into account is that the techniques used to control inductance varies from model to model. One would need to design an experiment to eliminate the bias from these shorting ring implementations or what have you. Aka you need to grab the same driver and make the smallest changes needed to increase coil and check inductance in both samples. Aka the only thing that changes is the topology, not brand, not shorting rings etc. Every implementation of different coil sizes you posted varies in many other ways that bias your estimate. This is just one of many examples in your posts.


Whoa. Back up a second. I never stated that coil size could not affect inductance, I showed specs, (facts lol) of the drivers the OP was comparing. You know, the ones related to the original topic, the thing you forgot about the second you heard the word Dynaudio... I showed that in *the drivers in question*, inductance and sensitivity did not follow VC size. I'm not here to get into the science behind it, I'm here to help the OP by presenting the facts taken off the manufacturer's websites. If you don't like it, call Morel, Dynaudio, and Seas and complain.



cvjoint said:


> You don't care whether a midbass has more excursion than another because you own a DYN - fact. 7" drivers in doors can always benefit from increased linear excursion - fact. Just because you don't care for an increase in performance it doesn't mean we shouldn't -fact. The picture you posted of the three drivers refute all your arguments in this paragraph - fact. That is in every way... The Scan has the most linear excursion claimed, followed by AT followed by Dyn. The Scan has the highest linear excursion tested, followed by AT, followed by Dyn. The Scan has the highest claimed xmech, as does the AT, again followed by the Dyn. And guess what? The depth matches these stats PERFECTLY. You couldn't be more wrong.


Why would I care if one midbass has 40mm excursion and one has 10mm when I'm not even close to using all of it's displacement? I posted the picture to show how small the Dyn is in relation to the others. You're infatuated with the Scan as I said you were earlier, a fanboy if you will. The Scan has more excursion than 99% of all midbassses by a long shot, even Erin admits it's a bit of a freak in that department. Once you get past the infatuation with this one 4" deep driver, look at the depth vs xmech of the two Seas, Morel, and Dynaudio drivers I mentioned, 3 of which were in the OP. You'll see that your statement "The only reason Dyns or Morels may be shallower is because they don't have that much excursion" (you were comparing to the Seas) is false. I proved you wrong with simple numbers, how can you possibly dispute that. Like me or hate me, all anyone has to do is look at the numbers to realize I'm right. Good try at twisting things around again.

I've heard the Illuminator, they sound great. If I thought it sounded better than my Dyns I would have sold my Dyns and used the money to buy the Illuminators with money to spare.

Show me how mediocre Dyn is. You can look at measurements all day but which one unanimously won the double blind listening test? I've heard the Illuminators, how many e650s have you heard?


cvjoint said:


> The way you show, aka prove something in the contemporary world is through careful scientific implementation. You never posted a test of your own that has any merit and therefore I can ignore your tidbits.


Uh, no. The end result is what matters (that would be the sound as it reaches your ears). Scientific implementation is just a means to try and understand it and get there but it's by no means the most important. I've donated a pair of $1,600 midranges and a pair of $1,000 midbasses for Klippel testing and I'm about to send the $1,000 midbasses off again for the double blind listening test. What have you contributed? Let's clarify one thing. Are you saying the double blind midrange shootout has no merit? Dude, wake up and look around, come back to reality, numbers aren't everything.

You're not getting out of it that easy though. Have you ever heard the Dyn e650 or are you talking out of your ass? Answer the question.



cvjoint said:


> You claimed Dyn's method of fitting the magnet in the coil might save space-fact. We were talking about designs that could save space, I simply showed the Dyn doesn't do such a thing and presented an example of a design that can. You generally want me to analyze your suggestions, it's just that this one didn't end up good for the Dyn and there you go...


I don't want nor need you to analyze anything, once again you think you're more important than your really are. Get over yourself. I've always been very polite toward you and even offered you money to help tune my system because you know your ****. I even politely nodded when you were talking out of your ass about drag racing vs road racing. However, you can be the most knowledgeable guy out there but your attitude sucks. I've bitten my tongue for a long time because you were a decently nice guy face to face and let's face it, you're a bit of a nerd but when you come across with this condescending attitude like you're better than me, we're going to have problems. I could only feel sorry for you for so long. I can't imagine getting a superiority complex over something as meaningless as car audio but whatever it takes to make you feel good.



cvjoint said:


> Yes you are! Ding Ding!


Pot, kettle, black. The difference here is I have no dislike for any brand in particular, I keep an open mind. In fact I've talked to several people about trying the Scans out in the GF's car. 

Yes, misinformation. You gave the impression that the Dyns and Morels are only shallow because of limited excursion. I posted actual dimensions of all drivers in question and *gasp* the Dyns are the shallowest and are tied for most excursion. Do you have a response for this? Some people mentioned higher inductance of a larger coil, some mentioned lower efficiency. I posted the numbers taken from the manufacturer's websites, nothing more. I put the facts out there so if people choose to read them, they will see that with the speakers chosen by the OP, the inductance/efficiency is not a valid one.


cvjoint said:


> Are you delusional? The Scans are rated for 9mm xmax, they test for 9.2 to 10mm, 16mm xmech. How does Dyn even get close to that? That's my response, you are delusional.


Get the 4" deep Scans off you mind, I know it's hard when that's all you eat, sleep, and breathe. If you take the time to read, I was comparing the drivers the OP mentioned, not the oddball Scan. It should be obvious to anyone who reads the above paragraph.



cvjoint said:


> You don't have to worry about me anymore, I won't be answering your posts from now on. Congratulations, you just joined a very exclusive club of 2. Guess what list that is? It's such a shame you waste everybody's time, it's not what you know but rather your character flaws.


I can only hope you're serious. In fact, the next time you have a "revelation" or feel the need to twist my words around, write it down and mention it to me at the next meet so we can keep your anti-Dyn agenda BS off of this board. The only time wasted is the time it takes me to go back and correct your blatant mis-info due to your hatred of Dynaudio. You started with the attitude, just take a look back and see.

Saying "fact" after each statement does not make it so lol.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> the only features it gives you that I'm aware of are:
> better thermal handling due to easier dissipation
> some ability to control cone breakup*
> 
> ...


I can totally accept that. The only thing I've had a problem with in this thread is Joint's attitude. I would love to know the reason behind some manufacturers using the large VC.

I actually meant to mention the larger VC in the 650 Klippel thread to ask if you saw anything out of the ordinary in any of the tests that could be attributed to the larger than normal coil. 

You can keep/throw away/sell the speaker. I had some people that wanted to buy it but once you figure in the cost of shipping and the hassle, it's not worth it. Thanks though. I hope I didn't cause any trouble. I thought I saw a PM from you and then it was gone, I need to clean out my inbox.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

mark620 said:


> BuickGN ..Thanks for the straight up answer I was looking for the ppl who have heard the speakers I was looking into.. I have a budget..I have expectations ..I am not doing a show car..And I am using class d amps..I was in car audio for a long time growing up. A freind had a shop in NJ where I live and I help him over the years with builds that were top comp cars in IASCA.. We played with everything from Oz to Zapco in the 90's so thats where I left off in sound..Half the companies I used in my car back then are gone....I know the dyna's sound great but there out of my range..In the next couple of years when my kids get bigger I will get my Audi rs5 I want and build a comp worhty system...I am going to a ms-8 and 3-way up front now so I am not happy with the mid and that needs to go..I was looking at the cost, sensitivity, qts and vc size trying to find a happy medium. The morel and the seas u18rnx are quality and value as far as I can see...Am I missing some others..?


I'm not that technical savvy but I wouldn't even pay attention to the vc size. As it took me a long time to learn, you just have to listen to your choices to find the one you like. You can see trends in certain brands. Morels tend to have a nice warm sound (if that's what you want). Dyns have great life-like vocals. Infinties are harsh, etc, but some people like the harsh sound of Infinities and some don't like the warm sound of Morels. 

I finally heard some DLS Gothias and I loved them. Not sure if they're in your range or not but they're worth considering. Scan Speak makes some great drivers as well.

Just a word of advice, the MS8 isn't a bad processor but don't expect to be able to install it, calibrate, and have a perfect tune. It requires work and experimentation. It served it's purpose well for me since it was my first processor and I knew nothing about time alignment, eq, or even what a crossover slope was. I feel that eventually many outgrow it. On the flip side, once you learn to manipulate it, it gets easier to get what you want out of it. I'm not saying not to buy it but it's just something to think about.


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