# Bluetooth sucks! SSD for the win :)



## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

I've been using flash drives for the past couple years and they either tear up or have some weird pop sounds in between songs. I only upload flac files. I tried that app Tidal but flak files coming from a USB drive sound so much better. I just ordered a crucial x8 portable SSD. I've never used these for car audio. I'm sure I will not see the data speeds what you would get from a MacBook Pro but I imagine they have to be faster than a flash drive. 

what do y'all use to the USB drive of your head unit? I have a Sony AV 7000 double din... paired up with a JL audio twk that has an optical out. for the type of music I listen to which is mainly metal, I find that if I can get ahold of some good flak files for my favorite bands this sounds a hell of a lot better than anything from a streaming app. I've also considered media players from Fiio. But I like the convenience of this USB configuration from my head unit. I've seen where some of you have recommended the Samsung t5 portable SSD. It seems like it's pretty reliable but it's not as fast as the crucial. The Samsung t7 looks pretty solid however that fingerprint scanner seems like it could possibly be an issue in used with car audio. I'm not even certain if my head unit puts out enough power to activate this crucial x8 SSD. Only one way to know, it'll be here this Thursday. 

Between flash drives and ssd drives... will you notice any sound differences?


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## spwath (Apr 7, 2020)

There should be no sound difference between a flash drive and SSD.

Also, my old cheap pioneer head unit only supported 32gb drives, plugged in a 120gb SSD and didn't work. Though I would assume the more expensive Sony might work, but should probably double check.


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

My DAILY . 











Why? 





































Do you SEE the Pollen and dust? This is why every other month or so, I clean my deck with Electronic cleaner and detoxify. 










These little things can make all the difference. 


Now do FLASH drives sounds the same? As a Data Forensics pro? Yes they can. But it has to do with if the Firmware. Its out of the scope of this. But yes, it CAN... But only if there is a PROBLEM.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Usb drives... what is this 2002? People are using lossless streaming services nowadays.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## Mr. Electric Wizard (Oct 30, 2017)

For those of us that like to actually own our music.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

opekone said:


> Usb drives... what is this 2002? People are using lossless streaming services nowadays.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


Yes, some of us like to own our own music and support the bands that we enjoy.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I've tried all of the streaming sources, including Tidal - and none of them compare to the sound quality that I get with "local" music on a USB drive, whether it be 320k .mp3 or .flac.


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## Mr. Electric Wizard (Oct 30, 2017)

I’m with you there!


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

I contacted Sony they said my head unit will accept an SSD drive... there's no limit on memory capacity but it will only read 20,000 files.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

jtrosky said:


> I've tried all of the streaming sources, including Tidal - and* none of them compare to the sound quality that I get with "local" music on a USB drive, whether it be 320k .mp3 or .flac.*


For someone who has no idea about these digital things and uses the simplicity of phone, A.A. and TIDAL, how do you go about doing that? Getting those files onto a USB drive. 
I just bought a 32GB US3.0 Flash drive (DTIG4/32GBET) so I am ready!

This might be a silly question but what is "local" music? Thanks for your help.


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## blammo585 (Feb 1, 2020)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> For someone who has no idea about these digital things and uses the simplicity of phone, A.A. and TIDAL, how do you go about doing that? Getting those files onto a USB drive.
> I just bought a 32GB US3.0 Flash drive (DTIG4/32GBET) so I am ready!
> 
> This might be a silly question but what is "local" music? Thanks for your help.


Local music just means music that you actually have in your possession on a drive or disc. It's music you're not getting from a streaming service.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> For someone who has no idea about these digital things and uses the simplicity of phone, A.A. and TIDAL, how do you go about doing that? Getting those files onto a USB drive.
> I just bought a 32GB US3.0 Flash drive (DTIG4/32GBET) so I am ready!
> 
> This might be a silly question but what is "local" music? Thanks for your help.


When I say "local" music, I just mean .mp3 and .flac files that I store "locally" on a USB thumb drive - and I keep that thumb drive plugged into the factory USB port in my car at all times. So I have thousands of albums available at all times - and don't need to rely on my phone for anything. 

I personally use these "stubby" USB drives, like this 128GB thumb drive from SANDisk ($18.35 for a 128gb thumb drive):

SanDisk 128GB Ultra Fit USB 3.1 Flash Drive - SDCZ430-128G-G46:Amazon:Computers & Accessories

I don't use that specific one, but the previous generation. They are so small that they don't "stick out" too far and cause issues.

In terms of where to get the music - I got most of them by ripping the music from CD's that I already had. Although, I'll be honest, I also just downloaded some from ThePirateBay - simply because it was faster than ripping the CD myself.  You can also buy the files from Google Play, Amazon, Apple, etc, etc, etc. Lots of ways to obtain them.

Like I said, I greatly prefer playing my "local" music, simply because it sounds better than any of streaming services. No delays if in a bad cell phone reception area - no worry about the phone battery level, no worrying about data caps, etc, etc, etc. Also - I find it a LOT easier to find the music I want with my "local" music. Sometimes, the streaming services are a pain to find what you want.

Also, I saw an app that allows you to create .flac files from downloaded TIdal music. Don't know the name of that software off-hand though - so you could technically obtain music files that way as well.


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## CBS13WRX (Mar 5, 2013)

opekone said:


> Usb drives... what is this 2002? People are using lossless streaming services nowadays.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


Streaming servies are only good if you have cell service and when you live in the mountains it is like only 20% of the time.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

jtrosky said:


> When I say "local" music, I just mean .mp3 and .flac files that I store "locally" on a USB thumb drive - and I keep that thumb drive plugged into the factory USB port in my car at all times. So I have thousands of albums available at all times - and don't need to rely on my phone for anything.
> 
> I personally use these "stubby" USB drives, like this 128GB thumb drive from SANDisk ($18.35 for a 128gb thumb drive):
> 
> ...


this is what will be showing up at my house tomorrow. This will be cool plugging in a fast ass SSD hard drive to my head unit. 









X8 - Crucial Solid State Drives (SSDs)


Crucial X8 solid state drives (SSDs) can make a huge difference to system performance. Shop our extensive range of Crucial solid state drives online now.




www.crucial.com


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

CBS13WRX said:


> Streaming servies are only good if you have cell service and when you live in the mountains it is like only 20% of the time.


Not true. The good ones like Tidal allow for off-line listening. You simply download whatever albums, or songs that you want, and even with no service you can listen to those songs as much as you want. It's great to explore new stuff when you're at home on wifi, then download a couple of new albums that you like here and there. When I use Tidal via Carplay, I turn off all of the streaming features and just play the albums that I've downloaded.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

gijoe said:


> Not true. The good ones like Tidal allow for off-line listening. You simply download whatever albums, or songs that you want, and even with no service you can listen to those songs as much as you want. It's great to explore new stuff when you're at home on wifi, then download a couple of new albums that you like here and there. When I use Tidal via Carplay, I turn off all of the streaming features and just play the albums that I've downloaded.


I don't care how good the quality of the stream is it will never be as good as a CD or flac file uploaded to a USB drive


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Kountz said:


> I don't care how good the quality of the stream is it will never be as good as a CD or flac file uploaded to a USB drive


Can you back that claim up?


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Can you consistently tell the difference between 320kbps mp3s, and lossless?









How Well Can You Hear Audio Quality?


A hi-def test for your ears (and your audio equipment): Listen to these songs and see if you can tell the difference between an MP3 and an uncompressed audio file.




www.npr.org


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## Alain93 (Mar 6, 2017)

I downloaded few playlists on my phone from Spotify, in 320. Played wired to HU, same song, not as good than USB SSD. it's why I stuck with SSD. Through the phone wired, it's not as punchy, something is missing. Maybe it's because of my phone or Spotify. I've never tried Tidal.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

gijoe said:


> Can you back that claim up?


My ears can back that claim up and I'm sure with the proper measuring instruments it would show that lossless audio format on a SSD vs. Streaming device would be much better


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## nhtunes (Jul 31, 2016)

I listen to mostly live Jam band stuff. The streaming service is pretty much useless for that, + where I live cell is awful. Got a portable hard drive in the trunk, plugged into the RaspiPi. I should work on streaming to find new bands to expand my collection.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

jtrosky said:


> When I say "local" music, I just mean .mp3 and .flac files that I store "locally" on a USB thumb drive - and I keep that thumb drive plugged into the factory USB port in my car at all times. So I have thousands of albums available at all times - and don't need to rely on my phone for anything.
> 
> I personally use these "stubby" USB drives, like this 128GB thumb drive from SANDisk ($18.35 for a 128gb thumb drive):
> 
> ...


Thank you for your explanation. 

TIDAL sounds so good in my system in A.A.. Songs I know well sound pretty much the same as in my home reference system..I can't imagine it sounding better. At least for my 60 year old ears.... The sub is punchy and tight, everything sounds so right. That being said, you're saying that if I were to burn Jeff Beck Wired or Pink Floyd Animals CD onto a thumb drive, that that would sound better than TIDAL/A.A.'s version? 

If so, I guess it has to do with the bit rate? Is there more compression on TIDAL then with CD's? Or these FLAC files you guys speak of?

I'm definitely game to try anything though for sure though....


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

CBS13WRX said:


> Streaming servies are only good if you have cell service and when you live in the mountains it is like only 20% of the time.


I live pretty deep in the mountains and get great service! YMMV


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Thank you for your explanation.
> 
> TIDAL sounds so good in my system in A.A.. Songs I know well sound pretty much the same as in my home reference system..I can't imagine it sounding better. At least for my 60 year old ears.... The sub is punchy and tight, everything sounds so right. That being said, you're saying that if I were to burn Jeff Beck Wired or Pink Floyd Animals CD onto a thumb drive, that that would sound better than TIDAL/A.A.'s version?
> 
> ...


Follow the NPR link that I posted earlier. This will show you how much, if any, difference you can hear. A file directly from a flash drive should not much different at all from a high quality stream from Tidal. One problem with comparing the 2 is that they need to play back at exactly the same SPL, if one plays back a tiny bit louder then as you switch back and forth you will almost certainly pick the slightly louder one thinking it sounds better.


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

There's actually a Sandisk SSD drive that looks like a thumbdrive (easy to carry/lose or is really compact).








SanDisk 256GB Extreme PRO USB 3.1 Solid State Flash Drive - SDCZ880-256G-G46, Black : Electronics


Buy SanDisk 256GB Extreme PRO USB 3.1 Solid State Flash Drive - SDCZ880-256G-G46, Black: USB Flash Drives - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com




Normally an SSD drive looks like a rectangular box with a USB cable hanging out, but this SSD looks like a thumb drive. At first glance we'll even think and argue it's a regular USB thumb drive lol but it's really a USB SSD drive (the description/literature points it out as an SSD). I bought one about 2 years ago to robocopy some files (super fast).


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## Dremgragen (Jul 14, 2008)

CBS13WRX said:


> Streaming servies are only good if you have cell service and when you live in the mountains it is like only 20% of the time.


I get a little better than 20%, but when I have service it's never stellar. I'll get pauses in the music if it's not pre-downloaded. I use Tidal and download playlists. Tidal will often refuse to play even my downloaded songs sometimes until I let it see an internet connection to verify my subscription or whatever. Really pisses me off. If I knew how to complain to them about it, I would. I've considered downloading that program that lets you pirate your downloaded stream songs, and I consider it a little more each time this happens.

I like to own music too, have about 800 CDs. Problem these days is I like a lot of songs that do not get released to CD. I'd have to convert it and burn it myself. My car's center console doesn't hold enough CDs either. I'm slowly moving to files and Tidal more, but I still prefer CD over all of them. I discount Tidal master tracks since there aren't enough of them.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

Dremgragen said:


> I get a little better than 20%, but when I have service it's never stellar. I'll get pauses in the music if it's not pre-downloaded. I use Tidal and download playlists. Tidal will often refuse to play even my downloaded songs sometimes until I let it see an internet connection to verify my subscription or whatever. Really pisses me off. If I knew how to complain to them about it, I would.
> 
> I like to own music too, have about 800 CDs. Problem these days is I like a lot of songs that do not get released to CD. I'd have to convert it and burn it myself. My car's center console doesn't hold enough CDs either. I'm slowly moving to files and Tidal more, but I still prefer CD over all of them.


I'll tell you something else that Tidal will do you have to go through a lot of bulshit to cancel your subscription to them. I signed up my nephew for services and he was supposed to only be charged $9.99 a month they charge them that the first month and then the next month they charged him $19.99 even after he provided the transcripts to them. They refused to issue a refund and then turn around and cancel his services after they charged him so he got charged and they cut his ass off. I don't respect this company at all. I've emailed them a bunch and they still refuse to cooperate


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## blammo585 (Feb 1, 2020)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Thank you for your explanation.
> 
> TIDAL sounds so good in my system in A.A.. Songs I know well sound pretty much the same as in my home reference system..I can't imagine it sounding better. At least for my 60 year old ears.... The sub is punchy and tight, everything sounds so right. That being said, you're saying that if I were to burn Jeff Beck Wired or Pink Floyd Animals CD onto a thumb drive, that that would sound better than TIDAL/A.A.'s version?
> 
> ...


I don't think you will notice a difference. I have some songs on a USB in FLAC, and I've played the same song on YouTube Music, and I don't hear a difference. "In theory" if you rip a CD to FLAC, then yes it should be better than streaming it. In reality, I doubt you'll hear a difference. If you hear a difference, it's probably because you know the FLAC should sound better.

I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say if you test this, especially since we have the same HU.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

gijoe said:


> Follow the NPR link that I posted earlier. This will show you how much, if any, difference you can hear. A file directly from a flash drive should not much different at all from a high quality stream from Tidal. One problem with comparing the 2 is that they need to play back at exactly the same SPL, if one plays back a tiny bit louder then as you switch back and forth you will almost certainly pick the slightly louder one thinking it sounds better.


I just went on the NPR link and all my pics were "wrong". Reasons- Age? Not focused properly?

I have 3 months left on my $1/mo TIDAL promotion so I'll stick with it for now. I like the fact that I can choose, or can discover, music I don't own and it sounds very good. And is super convenient.

TIDAL HiFi is 44.1 kHz /16 bit. I guess there is better with FLAC etc... The TIDAL Masters MQA is typically 96 kHz / 24 bit. There is better than that?

For fun sake, I would not mind having a thumb drive full of music I know well that is supposed to be the best sound to compare and see if I can tell the difference.

@blammo585 I've never burned a CD onto a thumb drive. Likely easy.... But then I have to figure out how to ensure it's in a FLAC file?


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I don't now Tidal very well, but I know that most steaming services will lower the quality if the cell data service is slow for whatever reason (poor reception areas, crappy cell providers, etc). So to me, this is more about streaming vs. local - not .flac vs .mp3... I know that I can't hear the difference between "local" .flac and 320k .mp3 files - but I _can_ easily hear the difference between the streaming services and my "local" music files.

At least with my phone, in my car, in my area, "local" music sounds significantly better than streamed music. I mean it's a pretty obvious difference. Could be a car-specific thing, a phone-specific thing and/or a cell-provider thing. Really not sure, but there is a significant difference for me.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> I just went on the NPR link and all my pics were "wrong". Reasons- Age? Not focused properly?
> 
> I have 3 months left on my $1/mo TIDAL promotion so I'll stick with it for now. I like the fact that I can choose, or can discover, music I don't own and it sounds very good. And is super convenient.
> 
> ...


No, it's not because of age. It's because even perfect ears have a really hard time distiguishing lossless from a good quality file. Use as high quality as practical, but understand the limits of our hearing, and don't pay for gimmicks. I subscribe to the high quality version of Tidal, but in reality the difference is very small, and if you add the background noise of the car environment to the mix, you'll never hear the difference between lossless and a good quality mp3. Be skeptical of people who claim otherwise, something as simple as a couple dB SPL difference will ruin the comparison.


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## Dremgragen (Jul 14, 2008)

This is older, but still applies for the tested services afaik. I see countless "audiophiles" talk about their Spotify playlists and when I say something they downvote every time.


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## Dremgragen (Jul 14, 2008)

gijoe said:


> if you add the background noise of the car environment to the mix, you'll never hear the difference


This is a tired and overused argument from the 70s and 80s when engines, tires, and mufflers were loud and obnoxious. Those have all improved dramatically here in 2020. Audio equipment has all vastly improved from battery to trunk also. Dynamat popped up in 1989.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Dremgragen said:


> This is old, pre-master tracks on Tidal, but still applies for the tested services afaik. I see countless "audiophiles" talk about their Spotify playlists and when I say something they downvote every time.


That was interesting. The guys reactions are funny.

I have been asking myself, why am I able to turn up the volume higher on my home system with YouTubeMusic vs. TIDAL before ear fatigue. Now I know why.

Good to know about his TIDAL findings. But he asks a good question. If 4K signals can be sent, why can't lossless. I'd sign up...

Neil Young was quoted as liking Qobuz but I don't know if there is a significant different to TIDAL HiFi/MQA.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Dremgragen said:


> This is a tired and overused argument from the 70s and 80s when engines, tires, and mufflers were loud and obnoxious. Those have all improved dramatically here in 2020. Audio equipment has all vastly improved from battery to trunk also. Dynamat popped up in 1989.


Oh come on. Even a quiet car is going to have enough road, tire, wind, engine, and exhaust noise to prevent you from hearing the difference between a lossless file, and a 320kbps MP3. If you can't hear the difference in a quiet room, with good headphones (take the test on the link I posted), then you certainly aren't going to hear the difference at 50mph. Sure, cars are quieter, but they aren't silent. 

Dynamat does nothing for low frequency road noise. Do you think that thin piece of foil and butyl are blocking a 19 foot, 60hz sound wave?


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## spwath (Apr 7, 2020)

gijoe said:


> Oh come on. Even a quiet car is going to have enough road, tire, wind, engine, and exhaust noise to prevent you from hearing the difference between a lossless file, and a 320kbps MP3. If you can't hear the difference in a quiet room, with good headphones (take the test on the link I posted), then you certainly aren't going to hear the difference at 50mph. Sure, cars are quieter, but they aren't silent.
> 
> Dynamat does nothing for low frequency road noise. Do you think that thin piece of foil and butyl are blocking a 19 foot, 60hz sound wave?


Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say.

Sure, a lossless file is better quality, and you might notice the difference with headphones or on a quality home stereo. But with the amount of background noise in a car, you really wont. Sure a 128kbps mp3, but if its decent enough, it should be good.
I have decided for myself spotify premium at high quality is good enough for me, convenient, and $5 a month because I am a student


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## blammo585 (Feb 1, 2020)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> I just went on the NPR link and all my pics were "wrong". Reasons- Age? Not focused properly?
> 
> I have 3 months left on my $1/mo TIDAL promotion so I'll stick with it for now. I like the fact that I can choose, or can discover, music I don't own and it sounds very good. And is super convenient.
> 
> ...


I use a program called Exact Audio Copy. It wasn't the most intuitive software I've ever used but I figured it out. FLAC is Free Lossless Audio Codec. My understanding is it still uses compression, but is lossless which seems like a contradiction to me.

In my opinion if you can listen to 96khz/24 bit streaming it's going to sound better than a normal mp3 rip to flash drive. I don't think you can make a blanket statement that anything local USB is going to sound better than streaming. My DVDs don't look better than a 1080p stream.

Eventually I'd like to do all my CDs to FLAC and have them with me because sometimes I do lose signal.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

blammo585 said:


> I use a program called Exact Audio Copy. It wasn't the most intuitive software I've ever used but I figured it out. FLAC is Free Lossless Audio Codec. My understanding is it still uses compression, but is lossless which seems like a contradiction to me.
> 
> In my opinion if you can listen to 96khz/24 bit streaming it's going to sound better than a normal mp3 rip to flash drive. I don't think you can make a blanket statement that anything local USB is going to sound better than streaming. My DVDs don't look better than a 1080p stream.
> 
> Eventually I'd like to do all my CDs to FLAC and have them with me because sometimes I do lose signal.


Think of FLAC as a zip file. All of the data is there, it's just rearranged, or "folded" up. It takes a bit more processing power to unfold the files that it takes to play other lossless files, but the data is there, bit for bit.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Ha - I just checked my Tidal app (I signed up for that 4 months for $4/month deal a while back) and found that my "Cellular" streaming quality setting was set to "Normal". I set it to "Master" and will see if that makes a difference.

When I initially tried Tidal, I was pretty happy with the sound quality. But lately I've found that the quality wasn't so great compared to my local files. I'm thinking one of the many Tidal app updates (they've been updating the app like crazy lately) may have reset the Cellular quality setting at some point....

Does Tidal automatically lower the streaming quality if the cell service can't keep up, like some of the other streaming services do?


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## RunUp (Nov 26, 2013)

blammo585 said:


> I don't think you will notice a difference. I have some songs on a USB in FLAC, and I've played the same song on YouTube Music, and I don't hear a difference. "In theory" if you rip a CD to FLAC, then yes it should be better than streaming it. In reality, I doubt you'll hear a difference. If you hear a difference, it's probably because you know the FLAC should sound better.
> 
> I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say if you test this, especially since we have the same HU.


But have you listened to 96hz/24bit FLAC, from DVD-Audio and/or SACD ?


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

Mr. Electric Wizard said:


> For those of us that like to actually own our music.


I found a FREE way to store and back up all my music a long time ago. 

So like.. I put it in this file... and I share it to the server.... And I just keep it there and it saves _Millions of copies_. Its really great. * Free and unlimited storage. *


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

> Kountz said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, some of us like to own our own music and support the bands that we enjoy.
> ...


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

I think anyone who have invested a lot of time, energy, and source material on private trackers (RIP what.cd) reflects very kindly on Tidal, which can provide bit for bit output to your DAC. I think people are using the word streaming to mean a few different things in this thread: pulling data from cloud storage then sending it via digital cable to DAC, wifi streaming of a local file from DAP to DAC or DAC to amp, or similar bluetooth streaming of a local file, or wifi or bluetooth streaming of a file pulled from cloud storage. Phew!


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## blammo585 (Feb 1, 2020)

RunUp said:


> But have you listened to 96hz/24bit FLAC, from DVD-Audio and/or SACD ?


I've listened to DVD-Audio itself. I ripped 2 of my DVD-Audio discs to FLAC, but my HU would not play it in 96khz. I had to re-do it.


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## Petererc (Dec 28, 2016)

nhtunes said:


> I listen to mostly live Jam band stuff. The streaming service is pretty much useless for that, + where I live cell is awful. Got a portable hard drive in the trunk, plugged into the RaspiPi. I should work on streaming to find new bands to expand my collection.


Yea man, I have spindles, binders and a hard drive full of shows shn and flac. Spent yesrs of my life in front of a computer downloading torrents and burning cd’s to flac then converting to wav and burning again. 
i got Pandora a few years ago and enjoyed listening to various artist. Then Spotify, which is way better. Still finding new tunes to jam on from artists I never heard of, if they come around I am going.
Going from live recordings mostly soundboards unless super clean audience with tape hiss, cuts splices, patches blah blah. recordings on Spotify sound pretty damn good. Sometimes I wish i could go back to not knowing and crank up those old shows thinking they sound awesome. I hardly listen to them and havent burned cd’s in a while.
And just for the record the “audiophile” playlists on Spotify sound really good, only problem is I have no desire to listen to most of the material


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## nhtunes (Jul 31, 2016)

Petererc said:


> Yea man, I have spindles, binders and a hard drive full of shows shn and flac. Spent yesrs of my life in front of a computer downloading torrents and burning cd’s to flac then converting to wav and burning again.



I forgot all about .shn files. and the 4 hours to download a show back then (still dial up). Didn't Al Gore invent .shn ?


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## blammo585 (Feb 1, 2020)

I have a WD MyCloud ethernet hard drive with music on it. There's an app for it for your phone where you can stream your music (and videos). Of course, you still have to have a good cell connection and a decent upload speed at home. Well, I only have a 1 Mb upload, and it's fine. I haven't used the app in a while though.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Does a phones data connector have any effect on the data speed and the sound? Some phones have have USB 2.0 connectors and some have USB 3 or 3.1 data connectors. I imagine they would use a USB cable with similar similar data speed. I assume there are reasons some of the more expensive phones do not use a USB 2.0 connector?



https://www.gadgethacks.com/compare/



Also, a poster was discussing TIDAL and he said this:
"Tidal Master is worth listening to if you have an iphone and a Dragonfly Dac to do the final code unpacking which ios cannot . The result is worth the cost in fidelity improvement and sonority ."

Is an external DAC better than a good head units DAC and worth considering? Or is the limiting factor the head units DAC and overrides an external DAC.


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## blammo585 (Feb 1, 2020)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Does a phones data connector have any effect on the data speed and the sound? Some phones have have USB 2.0 connectors and some have USB 3 or 3.1 data connectors. I imagine they would use a USB cable with similar similar data speed. I assume there are reasons some of the more expensive phones do not use a USB 2.0 connector?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.gadgethacks.com/compare/


I don't pay much attention to a phone's USB type or speed. Now, USB flash drives or external hard drives...then I want the fastest available because I'm likely transferring files back and forth. I very rarely plug my phone to a computer so it just doesn't matter much to me. I'm sure all newer phones are getting faster ports but I wouldn't necessarily pick a phone with USB 3.0 over one with USB 2.0 just based on that.

I don't think USB type has any effect on sound.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

blammo585 said:


> I don't pay much attention to a phone's USB type or speed. Now, USB flash drives or external hard drives...then I want the fastest available because I'm likely transferring files back and forth. I very rarely plug my phone to a computer so it just doesn't matter much to me. I'm sure all newer phones are getting faster ports but I wouldn't necessarily pick a phone with USB 3.0 over one with USB 2.0 just based on that.
> 
> I don't think USB type has any effect on sound.


Any thoughts on what that poster opined about an external DAC. Or does the H.U.'s internal DAC override any external DAC.


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## blammo585 (Feb 1, 2020)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Any thoughts on what that poster opined about an external DAC. Or does the H.U.'s internal DAC override any external DAC.


Refresh my memory on this post.

It depends on what we're talking about. If something is going out of the HU from a digital output and into the digital input of an external device and that device is in turn sending out an analog signal, then the quality is really going to depend on the DAC of that external device.

If we're talking about something coming into the HU digitally, then to me it's on the HU's DAC to do the work. UNLESS, we go back to my first paragraph and the HU has a digital output with an external DAC. Then it's going to stay digital all the way through the chain until it gets to the end device that outputs analog.

I think it was in your thread about sound quality of phones where someone said something about the phone doing the digital-to-analog conversion and then sending it to the HU through USB. I don't think so. If that was the case then the HU would be accepting an analog signal through USB, and I don't know that that's possible. If it is I've learned something new.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

blammo585 said:


> Refresh my memory on this post.
> 
> It depends on what we're talking about. If something is going out of the HU from a digital output and into the digital input of an external device and that device is in turn sending out an analog signal, then the quality is really going to depend on the DAC of that external device.
> 
> ...


It was included in the post you replied to. Here is the quote:
"Also, a poster was discussing TIDAL and he said this:
"Tidal Master is worth listening to if you have an iphone and a Dragonfly Dac to do the final code unpacking which ios cannot . The result is worth the cost in fidelity improvement and sonority ."

Is an external DAC better than a good head units DAC and worth considering? Or is the limiting factor the head units DAC and overrides an external DAC."


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## blammo585 (Feb 1, 2020)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> It was included in the post you replied to. Here is the quote:
> "Also, a poster was discussing TIDAL and he said this:
> "Tidal Master is worth listening to if you have an iphone and a Dragonfly Dac to do the final code unpacking which ios cannot . The result is worth the cost in fidelity improvement and sonority ."
> 
> Is an external DAC better than a good head units DAC and worth considering? Or is the limiting factor the head units DAC and overrides an external DAC."


I just watched a YouTube video on that Dragonfly. It gets confusing nowadays because a lot of people aren't using head units any more. They're just using a phone to a DSP or to an amp that has Bluetooth, etc. It has a 3.5mm jack on the opposite end of the USB. With an adapter, you plug the USB to your phone's USB and then headphones on the other end (or 3.5 to RCA adapter). That way instead of using the phone's DAC, you'd use the Dragonfly's.

In that scenario I would concede the sound might be better. (Edit: I'm talking about with headphones or to powered speakers from the Dragonfly's analog out vs the phone's own analog out) But if you're talking about using it with your phone and sending an analog signal to your head unit rather than just feeding a digital connection from phone to head unit, a la USB, then I'm not so sure it would make much difference. I'd have to hear it to be convinced.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

TIDAL Masters MSQ will not "cast" onto Chromecast for my(or anyones) home system. Only HiFi will cast....TIDAL Masters will work only through a hardwired connection from a phones TIDAL app to a head unit or through the desktop TIDAL app and computer. Is there a way to hook up a phone directly to a processor so one can unfold the MSQ to get Masters? 

I have a Classe SSP-800 and I can't figure out a way to make it work. My phone would have to be connected right into my Classe. Or connect a device into my Classe and then my phone into that.

Anyone have an idea? Or experience where they were able to get MQA and TIDAL Master songs on their home system?

Thanks.


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## blammo585 (Feb 1, 2020)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> TIDAL Masters MSQ will not "cast" onto Chromecast for my(or anyones) home system. Only HiFi will cast....TIDAL Masters will work only through a hardwired connection from a phones TIDAL app to a head unit or through the desktop TIDAL app and computer. Is there a way to hook up a phone directly to a processor so one can unfold the MSQ to get Masters?
> 
> I have a Classe SSP-800 and I can't figure out a way to make it work. My phone would have to be connected right into my Classe. Or connect a device into my Classe and then my phone into that.
> 
> ...


I just checked on my Nvidia ShieldTV, and there is a Tidal app for that. Do you have any kind of streaming box that is connected to the Classe that gets the Tidal app? I just looked up the Firestick and Roku, and both have Tidal. I assume you could play MQA and Tidal Master songs on those hooked directly to your preamp.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

blammo585 said:


> I just checked on my Nvidia ShieldTV, and there is a Tidal app for that. Do you have any kind of streaming box that is connected to the Classe that gets the Tidal app? I just looked up the Firestick and Roku, and both have Tidal. I assume you could play MQA and Tidal Master songs on those hooked directly to your preamp.


If you are using a dac that can't unpack mqa (most of them) you need software that can unpack the mqa. tidal sends you what is essentially a double badnwidth flac file that needs yto be unpacked by the dac or a software player. Uapp does this in addition to offering bit for bit output to your dac. 

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

opekone said:


> If you are using a dac that can't unpack mqa (most of them) you need software that can unpack the mqa. tidal sends you what is essentially a double badnwidth flac file that needs yto be unpacked by the dac or a software player. Uapp does this in addition to offering bit for bit output to your dac.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


I believe you had mentioned uapp previously,,,,This is all Greek to me so let me ask a few things. As far as home stereo use, I've read that due to MQA licensing issues, TIDAL is not allowed to allow anyone to cast Masters into Chromecast as it bypasses the TIDAL app. and therefore only casts in HiFi mode... So it seems like I would need a hardwired connection from my phone to my processor like it is in my car. My processor has an HDMI slot and associated source channel I could use. I probably have RCA inputs as well.....

As far as in my car, I have a Motorola G4 Play(but once I get my protective case) I'll be using a Motorola G Power phone. My head unit is the Sony XAV-AX5000. Are you saying that my phones DAC, or my head units DAC, is unable to unpack Masters even though my phone shows a Master version of the song?

I am not averse to get the $8 uapp if it is necessary but I'm not sure I understand if I actually need that or a USB C to HDMI cable for my phone to pkug into my processor. Or both?

TIDAL has a list of home players that let you listen to TIDAL in a home system but I don't know if I need an expensive player. Unless it allows for Maters play and that is my only choice:





Home Audio Players – TIDAL


Check the list for your Home Audio Player, and learn how you can integrate TIDAL on your system.




support.tidal.com





Thanks.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> I believe you had mentioned uapp previously,,,,This is all Greek to me so let me ask a few things. As far as home stereo use, I've read that due to MQA licensing issues, TIDAL is not allowed to allow anyone to cast Masters into Chromecast as it bypasses the TIDAL app. and therefore only casts in HiFi mode... So it seems like I would need a hardwired connection from my phone to my processor like it is in my car. My processor has an HDMI slot and associated source channel I could use. I probably have RCA inputs as well.....
> 
> As far as in my car, I have a Motorola G4 Play(but once I get my protective case) I'll be using a Motorola G Power phone. My head unit is the Sony XAV-AX5000. Are you saying that my phones DAC, or my head units DAC, is unable to unpack Masters even though my phone shows a Master version of the song?
> 
> ...


UAPP is just a not so fancy way of overcoming the specific limitations of android OS. When you connect an android device to an external DAC there is bandwidth limit placed on the USB connection. Fortunately on your home PC when you plug into your DAC the only limit on audio processing is the DAC. 

When Tidal send you an MQA it gets unpacked into a giant flac file which is then decoded as normal. Naturally the Windows 10 Tidal app can unpack the MQA and send the flac file to your DAC. So, play MQA from the windows 10 app and you're there. This takes care of the vast majority of masters files on Tidal. 

Unfortuantely (fortunately?) some MQA files are of such high bandwidth that they can't be contained in the "double flac". In this cases a second unfold is performed by the DAC. Only an MQA enabled DAC can do this second unfold and reveal the "true power" of those files.

I don't know much about casting, but what you are saying about chromcast makes sense. If it skips Tidal completely then I presume it's trying to send an unpacked MQA to a device which more than likely your device can't handle it. I wonder if you can cast MQA to an MQA enabled device?

We got a little bit of the blind leading the blind, here.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

opekone said:


> UAPP is just a not so fancy way of overcoming the specific limitations of android OS. When you connect an android device to an external DAC there is bandwidth limit placed on the USB connection. Fortunately on your home PC when you plug into your DAC the only limit on audio processing is the DAC.
> 
> When Tidal send you an MQA it gets unpacked into a giant flac file which is then decoded as normal. Naturally the Windows 10 Tidal app can unpack the MQA and send the flac file to your DAC. So, play MQA from the windows 10 app and you're there. This takes care of the vast majority of masters files on Tidal.
> 
> ...


*We got a little bit of the blind leading the blind, here.* "
For sure but great explanation....Chromecast dongle(plugged into an HDMI processor port) picks up a WiFi signal and can play anything audio or video through the processor sent to it through WiFi. An amazing thing for $35......

So if I understand you correctly, when I'm playing TIDAL through its app in my car, even though it indicates "Master" on my phone, my Sony H.U. DAC is not really getting the second and third unfolded files Is that correct? And by using uapp, my H.U. WILL get them? I've read that uapp has an MQA add on? Is that correct or is it included.

I'm wondering why TIDAL doesn't state this upfront and readily seen so subscribers can do what it takes to get the best sound they offer.

If uapp DOES do the second and third unfolding, then my home system would still be prevented from getting Masters as my Classe processor(from 2008), it's DAC is not MQA enabled?
But it can play DTS 96kHZ/24 bit and high resolution audio(I'm emailing Classe about MQA files) so maybe it needs an outside unit that is MQA certified.
An $8 app is fine but an outside decoder is a big expense just for one thing-TIDAL MQA.

Thanks again for your help.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Two things to clear up:

1. I keep talking about UAPP and it's only making things less clear. UAPP only applies if you are using your android phone as a source and using a USB cable to connect your android phone to your DAC. The android phone's USB output is bandwidth limited. UAPP overcomes this and lets you send full bandwidth signal to the DAC. This is not an issue with other devices (apple, home theater PCs, DAPs, etc.).

2. There is only one unfolding. MQA - unfolds into FLAC - decoded normally. For a select few MQA files, if you have an MQA enabled DAC, there is a second unfolding. 


For my considerations and from what I've read about MQA DACs that are available (in my price range), I didn't see anything worth grabbing that would offer the comparable fidelity to something like an inexpensive Topping DAC. It doesn't seem like there are any truly "hi fi" MQA DACs out, yet. And considering the price to performance ratio of something like a Dx3 Pro or a D50, I just can't see the improvement in the extra unfolding being worth a loss in the fidelity of the DAC. But that's, just like my opinion, man.


As for how your HU interacts with Tidal that's a great question. What kind of phone or DAP/phone are you using and how are you interfacing with your head unit?


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

opekone said:


> Two things to clear up:
> 
> 1. I keep talking about UAPP and it's only making things less clear. UAPP only applies if you are using your android phone as a source and using a USB cable to connect your android phone to your DAC. The android phone's USB output is bandwidth limited. UAPP overcomes this and lets you send full bandwidth signal to the DAC. This is not an issue with other devices (apple, home theater PCs, DAPs, etc.).
> 
> ...


No, you are making it clear....I think I understand the car audio situation....I am currently using a Motorola G4 Play phone. But I just bought the Motorola G Power. 4GB Ram 64 GB with expandable memory. I will transfer everything to that phone and begin to use it once the protective case and glass screen protectors arrive next week.

So, either way I AM using an Android phone in my car with a USB cable to connect to the USB of my Sony XAV-AX5000 head unit and its DAC....

Question- What bandwidth do Androids normally put out. 44.1/16Bit? And uapp increases that to 96/24 Bit? I looked over uapp and could not find the answer to what it does.

Did you buy a Topping DAC?

I remember asking my installer about getting a Topping DAC as I saw some guys at IASCA using one. I did not understand why they were or why I'd need it. But the installer didn't know what I was talking about with the Topping because the Sony had a DAC so the conversation ended there.


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

The link below has a comprehensive list of home audio hardware (streamers, preamps, etc.) that can unfold MQA.






What is MQA audio?


What is MQA audio? Why is MQA audio so special and how can you listen to MQA? Learn more about the breakthrough audio technology here.




www.mqa.co.uk


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

jriggs said:


> The link below has a comprehensive list of home audio hardware (streamers, preamps, etc.) that can unfold MQA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. One thing I'm considering is exchanging my just received Motorola phone for the LG V40thinq that is an MQA device with upgraded DAC's....

But the roadblock is going to be my Sony AX500 head unit. I have been unable to determine the DAC's ability in it. I know it's not MQA(are there any?) but I still wonder if it is even 44.1/16bit.

It seems like no one can get MQA through their conventional head units. Unless it is strictly a music controller. Or you hook up through Aux jacks. But at 30+ mph, I wonder if you can even hear the difference. Esp in a very well tuned system.

Now on a home audiophile system, that's a different story.


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

I don’t know about a head unit that can play/process hi res audio. The Sony GS9 does but I don’t know of others. You’ll probably need to consider a DSP that can process hi res like the Mosconi Aerospace and several of the Helix offerings. Then you need a source that can fully unfold MQA and output optical/ digital to the DSP. 

Personally I wouldn’t worry to much about MQA, especially in the car. In my home set up, I also can’t fully unfold MQA, but I don’t feel like I am missing anything. I use a Mac mini for Roon core and stream bit perfect music to a Cambridge CXN V2 streamer. The Cambridge then sends signal to a Yamaha CX-A5200 and then Parasound amps to Kef LS50 and dual subs. Sound is phenomenal.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

jriggs said:


> I don’t know about a head unit that can play/process hi res audio. The Sony GS9 does but I don’t know of others. You’ll probably need to consider a DSP that can process hi res like the Mosconi Aerospace and several of the Helix offerings. Then you need a source that can fully unfold MQA and output optical/ digital to the DSP.
> 
> *Personally I wouldn’t worry to much about MQA, especially in the car.* In my home set up, I also can’t fully unfold MQA, but I don’t feel like I am missing anything. I use a Mac mini for Roon core and stream bit perfect music to a Cambridge CXN V2 streamer. The Cambridge then sends signal to a Yamaha CX-A5200 and then Parasound amps to Kef LS50 and dual subs. Sound is phenomenal.


I've come to that conclusion............. Nice set up...I've always been a fan of Yamaha. They make great gear that lasts.

I think the Sony AX5000 HU supports 96/24 files. I need to confirm. But I think it's of a benefit to exchange the G Power phone I just received for the LG v40ThinQ which has upgraded DAC's and supports MQA. More for the home but maybe I can squeeze a little better sound out of the phone in my car.

I need to figure out what is the minimum I can do in my house system to get the most out of TIDAL Even in HiFi mode, a lot of the music sounds great..Sometimes even YouTube Music does too.....
I have a Classe SSP-800 processor. The Classe is not an MQA device but its DSP can process 96/24 and higher bit rates. Classe advises digital gear like CD and DVD/Blu Ray players be connected to HDMI to accomodate higher bit rate processing...I have an HDMI port open so I'm wondering if a USB C to HDMI cable that let's me connect the LG directly to the HDMI port will allow for MASTER MQA since the phone is an MQA device. I won't get fully unfolded files but maybe 96/24 and Master?

I don't need fully unfolded MQA either(2 out of 3 ain't bad) but do you think that would work to allow Master files? Or would I need something in between the phone and the processors HDMI for Master MQA. I currently have a Chromecast dongle in one of my HDMI ports but TIDAL will only cast in HiFi mode.


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

Not really sure. Have you tried Roon? They offer a 14 day trial for free. It integrates all of your digital music files and streaming services like Tidal,etc. into a complete music catalogue, among other great features. It is amazing software. You do need a Roon ready device to stream to in order to get the highest quality bit perfect stream, otherwise it can use chrome cast or Apple AirPlay which down samples. The Bluesound Node 2i is probably the least expensive Roon ready device that can also fully unfold MQA, then you send this out to the Classe, no HDMI though. You would send unbalanced out to maximize the on board DACs abilities. Refurbs can be had for around $465. Bluesound NODE 2i Wireless Multi-Room Hi-Res Music Streamer Factory RefurbishedBlack


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

jriggs said:


> Not really sure. Have you tried Roon? They offer a 14 day trial for free. It integrates all of your digital music files and streaming services like Tidal,etc. into a complete music catalogue, among other great features. It is amazing software. You do need a Roon ready device to stream to in order to get the highest quality bit perfect stream, otherwise it can use chrome cast or Apple AirPlay which down samples. The Bluesound Node 2i is probably the least expensive Roon ready device that can also fully unfold MQA, then you send this out to the Classe, no HDMI though. You would send unbalanced out to maximize the on board DACs abilities. Refurbs can be had for around $465. Bluesound NODE 2i Wireless Multi-Room Hi-Res Music Streamer Factory RefurbishedBlack


Your advice is solid but a bit involved...I don't play have digital music files or play TIDAL at home a lot...I may not have a choice but to reconsider if I want better sound than the down sampled Chromecast in HiFi. ...

You said something that is making me think....That is, where is the proper connection from phone to processor...Looked at the manual...... It says- The SSP supports 4 digital audio inputs. The Coaxial Digital Audio inputs accept PCM data streams up to 24 bits and up to 192kHz sampling frequency. They recommend using 75 ohm cables that are optimized for digital audio signals. I think my phone idea is DOA.

I emailed Classe support to see if they can help. Thank you for your recommendations.


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

No worries. I have been figuring all of this out for my own own systems, car and home, Over the past couple of months so it’s all fresh in head.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

jriggs said:


> No worries. I have been figuring all of this out for my own own systems, car and home, Over the past couple of months so it’s all fresh in head.


It's good stuff...I'm learning something.......


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## K-pop sucks (May 28, 2018)

I'll stick with cassettes instead.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

There is some mis information in here...

the android audio layer doesn’t bandwidth limit audio output, what it does do is up/downsample everything to 48khz so you play back a flac file at 44.1khz it’s then resampled (losing quality) to 48khz

If I then use UAPP to control my dac the device is taken over by the driver in UAPP so no other apps can use the topping D10 in my case, it does however output whatever the file input sample rate is, so 44.1khz cones out as 44.1khz, 96khz cones out as 96khz and my dsp pro can then playback anything that goes in... the downside to UAPP is that if you use downloaded files in tidal you can’t play them due to DRM in UAPP... so for me android was a pain in the ass as I do use downloaded files a lot due to signal issues where I live in the U.K.

Edit… the previous upsampling of everything was only when using Amazon music, that resamples everything to the maximum the connected dac/spdif converter can resolve, which may be too high for the end destination to handle, in my case it made everything 384khz so the dsp pro 2 wouldnt play it back even over coax

onto the next point I will raise...

I compete in Emma sq and as such a high quality source is a very good start!

so at one point I was using an alpine 178bt, not a cheap unit by any stretch, I was using my iPhone via Bluetooth and also usb, and I had a Bluetooth hec and also a topping D10 via coax into my dsp pro 2...

tests happened, both listening and with measurements

what I found which may surprise some of you is that I could not tell the bt and usb I’m apart, not could a friend who runs two of them in two cars for Emma sq competition, he is a judge so is used to listening to high level cars and sources a fair bit

so I then noticed that the bt hec was superior to the alpine in both detail and also bass ends of the spectrum

The topping was next level above all three of the other sources

I was then curious as to what the difference actually was, maybe it was frequency response to explain the extra detail...

the result was all four of the sources were pretty much identical between 80hz and 19.5khz

usb should be superior to Bluetooth Due to a direct digital connection... however the freq response is identical from one end to the other, so in effect alpine have dulled down the freq response of the usb to match the Bluetooth effectively, sound was not able to be differentiated from the other, this saddens me as a wired connection should be better due to more bandwidth

so onto the bt hec, the response was similar between 80hz and 19.5khz but the bass end was 6db up curving up from 80hz down to 20hz, detail levels were better and it was more dynamic given the exact same levels vs the alpine from either bt or usb

then onto the topping, the stage height jumped up about 4”, the frequency response through the middle of the freq range was pretty much identical yet again, but detail is next level, sub bass was from memory up about 12db by the bottom end of the audio spectrum again from being identical at 80hz, the difference is remarkable

what do I attribute this to? Basically the DACs in a modern headunit are ok, even the Sony gs-9 has a dac with a dynamic range that’s approx 87db from audio science review vs the topping that is approx 109db... so I somehow doubt that a budget deck will have better DACs than the Sony

so if you’re comparing a usb stick to a phone through a headunit you probably won’t notice a difference, I can tell a difference between 320kbps and a flac file from my phone using the same source, however only at higher volumes where the differences become more apparent

the topping with my iPhone as a source via optical or coax is the best source I have heard in my car, even using the topping analogue isn’t as good when level matched perfectly, perhaps due to an extra two stages of conversion

someone up above mentioned usinga dac like a dragonfly and went on to mention the headunits dac, I will assume they are using the aux in to the headunit, this then passes the audio through the dac in the dragonfly and also the headunit, this then basically adds extra levels of conversion as it will be made digital from the aux in for sound processing, time alignment etc and then through the headunits dac, you would be far better off using an rca to 3.5mm jack lead direct into your dsp to avoid the limiting factor of the hu dac

I would recommend using bit perfect audio from an iPhone (it’s bit perfect via usb digital) or an android device using UAPP (This can then get you bit perfect only if you tick the correct boxes!) into a device like a dragonfly or a topping D10 (I find the latter lots better by digital to avoid two conversions I presume!) for the best sound quality 👍🏼

sorry for the long post, but I feel able to talk about this due to the levels of testing and research I’ve done over the last year

I have posted the frequency responses in my build thread for those who care (look for sexual intercorsa in build logs)

now I shall go do some work!


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

dumdum said:


> There is some mis information in here...
> 
> the android audio layer doesn’t bandwidth limit audio output, what it does do is upsample everything to the maximum level of bitrate an external dac can’t reproduce, so if you have a topping D10 connected with a maximum of 384khz sample rate whatever you put into the audio layer will then be upsampled to that rate, so you play back a flac file at 44.1khz it’s then resampled (losing quality) to 384khz, this then results in my dsp.3 not playing the file as it’s max sample rate is 96khz...
> 
> ...


So you preferred the sound and had better meaurements going into the dsp's adc from the topping.

That's unsurprising and disappointing 

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

opekone said:


> If you are using a dac that can't unpack mqa (most of them) you need software that can unpack the mqa. tidal sends you what is essentially a double badnwidth flac file that needs yto be unpacked by the dac or a software player. Uapp does this in addition to offering bit for bit output to your dac.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


MQA's website states that "LG smartphones deliver a fully decoded MQA experience."





MQA Explained | How MQA Audio Technology Works | MQA


MQA audio achieves the seemingly impossible by delivering studio-quality sound in a file that's small enough to stream. Founder, Bob Stuart explains the science here.




www.mqa.co.uk





Therefore, you think an LG phone such as the LGv40ThinQ would make an appreciable difference to the sound with the Sony XAV-AX5000 H.U. since the LG does all the MQA unpacking? 

Or is the upgraded DAC's and MQA unfolding in LG's really made for, and best with, headphones. Seems like the joyous sonic reviews for that phone all involve headphone reviews. Nothing about a car audio experience.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

You're really splitting hairs here. You just kind of have to make a decision about the different DACs, how they are integrated, the quality of that integration and what that means to you versus a higher bitrate file. No matter what you do you'll get something good. Audiosciencereview is a forum that might help you waste some time if you want some fiddly numbers to help influence your decision. Digital Audio Converters (DACs)


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

opekone said:


> You're really splitting hairs here. You just kind of have to make a decision about the different DACs, how they are integrated, the quality of that integration and what that means to you versus a higher bitrate file. No matter what you do you'll get something good. Audiosciencereview is a forum that might help you waste some time if you want some fiddly numbers to help influence your decision. Digital Audio Converters (DACs)


Thanks man. Yeah, when I'm not dialed in to a subject I spin wheels. My take away is I guess for the car, which phone doesn't matter. 

What is interesting is I think the LG would act as a streaming device for TIDAL Master/MQA for my home stereo since it can deliver a fully decoded MQA experience. 
My processor is a Classe and I asked support if I could plug the LG with the right cable into an HDMI port and get TIDAL MQA since it is an MQA device and does all the unfolding.... They replied "Your suggestion connecting your phone directly with a USB C to HDMI seems like workable solution. We would suggest contacting LG or other smartphone manufacturer to confirm first.
Lastly if the smartphone plan does not work you may want to look into a streaming pre amp source device that support hi res audio such as a HEOS Link by Denon, etc."

I wonder if it would work.


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

Yeah man, like I suggested before, invest in a hi res streamer. It’s worth it. The Classe you have is nice, and it is very old tech. I would not bother trying to chase the phone to HDMI idea. Might as well be a high quality Bluetooth adaptor instead if you just want to use the phone as a source in home. Audioengine B1 is very nice.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

jriggs said:


> Yeah man, like I suggested before, invest in a hi res streamer. It’s worth it. The Classe you have is nice, and it is very old tech. I would not bother trying to chase the phone to HDMI idea. Might as well be a high quality Bluetooth adaptor instead if you just want to use the phone as a source in home. Audioengine B1 is very nice.


Ok...I'll look into it. Maybe I'll PM you for an idea or 2 if that's ok. I'd likely buy a new streamer instead of a rebuild.... But the hook up looks tricky. For me anyhow. 

In the meantime, I can listen to TIDAL HiFi and YouTubeMusic and watch YouTube videos casting on WiFi to the Chromecast plugged into my Classe. It all sounds pretty good but I'm curious about hi res music that might be close(r) to vinyl.

Thanks guys for your patience!


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

Going to send a PM now.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

I real


opekone said:


> So you preferred the sound and had better meaurements going into the dsp's adc from the topping.
> 
> That's unsurprising and disappointing
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


I really don’t know where you got that snippet from as I definitely said...

“the topping with my iPhone as a source via optical or coax is the best source I have heard in my car, even using the topping analogue isn’t as good when level matched perfectly, perhaps due to an extra two stages of conversion”

so no I didn’t find that one bit...


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> MQA's website states that "LG smartphones deliver a fully decoded MQA experience."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your limiting the sound by inserting a Sony headunit into the signal chain... why would you want to do that when using a very good dac like the one in an LG (they use a quad dac which needs to be enabled in software in the phone to be utilised to its fullest degree)


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

dumdum said:


> I real
> 
> I really don’t know where you got that snippet from as I definitely said...
> 
> ...


Where do you send the analog signal after the topping dac? Is it just funtioning as a clean usb to spdif converter?

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

opekone said:


> Where do you send the analog signal after the topping dac? Is it just funtioning as a clean usb to spdif converter?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


Usb to spdif currently via optical to my dsp.3, it is also a dac but I don’t use it as one as the dac in the helix functions better with two less conversions in its path, but it is also an excellently measuring dac 👍🏼


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

dumdum said:


> Your limiting the sound by inserting a Sony headunit into the signal chain... *why would you want to do that when using a very good dac like the one in an LG (they use a quad dac which needs to be enabled in software in the phone to be utilised to its fullest degree)*


Good question. At the time of my install, I did not know that all head units limit sound. Or the world of TIDAL and hi res streaming..I only knew vinyl and home stereo.....Knowing what I know now, I still think I'd go with the head unit. Too bad there isn't a processor/DAC device to connect to a head unit to supercede the H.U.s DAC...........There'd likely be a fertile market for head units with hi res DAC's if the price wasn't prohibitive. 

I have a new Moto G Power in the box right now. I'm contemplating exchanging it for the LG. But the LG won't change things with my Sony it seems. It might make a difference with streaming hi res at home though. 

Thank you for chiming in and educating me on the subject.


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