# I don't get sensless brand bashing.



## Hi-FiDelity

I can get the idea of bashing a brand that actively makes complete garbage and tries to pass it of as quality to prevent people from getting screwed over but the idea of bashing a formerly respected brand on the simple grounds that they have bought out by a larger company kind of confuses me. I’m not saying that this is specific to these forums. I've seen it on many car audio boards and it's always kind of bugged me. I mean do you really thing that a company is going to buy them for the sole purpose of running them into the ground. I don't see the business sense in that at all. 

For example; In 2002 Alphasonik got bought out by the Anaba Group who a few years earlier bough up MA audio and Audiobahn both low to mid level companies in the mobile audio field. The shop I was working at was an Alphasonik dealer and I remember a bunch of people grumbling about how Alpha was gone now and they were just gonna be slapping the Alpha badge on cheaper MA or Audiobahn gear. Needless to say that wasn't and from what I can still tell hasn’t been the case. If anything Alphasonik amps have continued to be well designed and well assembled. I've seen the same thing when people discuss PPI, MB Quart, Infinity, JBL and to a lesser extent Soundstream and Hifonics. 

So why the bashing then, well the main issue I see that people had was the amps were no longer "Proudly Made In The USA". They were designed here and assembled in Taiwan, Malaysia or China and we all know that there is no such thing as a quality manufactures in Asia right. While it's true that Asia and China in particular has gotten a lot of attention for shoddy and questionable build quality you can find many products made in the region that have as much effort put into them as any "MADE IN THE USA" products of the past. While yes a ZED built Alphasonik may have a slightly higher build than a later one I still don't see a massive disparity. It's not like we’re going from McIntosh to Pyle in quality. Again that wouldn't make any kind of business sense; you would lose more money due to the massive drop in customers than you would save in cutting assembly cost. 

Also it would be rather unfair to compare amp that sells for around $300 to an amp that cost around $1,200 and yet this is something I've seen happen on multiple occasions. A favorite wiping boy seams to be MB Quarts Onyx series for some reason, I've seen people post internal shops of a 4-channel Onyx amp and almost immediately the next post is someone bashing the amp sand saying the old Q or DCS series look so much stouter on the inside. They prefer to ignoring the fact that both those lines retailed for 2-4 times the amount that even the most expensive Onyx amp costs. What is also funny with this is a lot of times the guys bashing the Onyx amps are running another Maxxsonic's product (Autotek, Hifonics, and Crunch). My question is what makes those brands immune to cost cutting when they are owned by the same parent company, nothing that’s what. 

Yes this was a bit of a rant if you want to ignore it go ahead I don't care but I would honestly like to hear some opinions of fellow enthusiast on this topic.


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## Hillbilly SQ

Haters gonna hate. All part of human nature. Some are just more vocal than others. I'm VERY guilty of senseless bashing but have since grown up. For me the proof is in how a product performs in a real world install.


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## Bayboy

Hillbilly hit it on the head, and unfortunately many are not going to admit being snobbish & bashing anything beneath what they have. The fact remains in you get what you pay for.... ummmm I should hope so. It would be robbery if I paid for something and didn't get to take it with me. 


The problem remains in who sets the standard in "what you pay for"? Surely not anyone does that for me except me & common sense. Almost all brands of the past have taken a step back, but major changes have happened over the years as well. Still, when you see someone constantly saying "my____ , my_____, my_____" in almost every thread they participate in, then it becomes apparent. When you see that same person almost become offended that someone prefers a certain brand or piece of equipment over their gear, then it is apparent. You see it all the time and they are very noticeable. It's rather comical as it sometimes alludes to some sort of "bigger penis" contest. 

The key to it is ignoring them just as much as you ignore those who make exaggerated claims with known inferior gear. I put them in the same bag. I am here to learn and spread what little knowledge I have. It's definitely not brand specific either. If it works, then it works. If you can make it look good (the install) that's a plus.


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## fast4door

fear of the unknown and ignorance I am sure have a role in why.


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## chad

My favorite form of basing is how certain brands suck, sound like ****, etc... But ironically have the best sales and win the most comps.... 

Liam Lynch: United States of Whatever - YouTube


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## 1996blackmax

At times people regurgitate what they hear from others, instead of speaking from experience. When it comes to your gear, it's your money. Having gear that works for you is what matters.


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## D-Bass

chad said:


> My favorite form of basing is how certain brands suck, sound like ****, etc... But ironically have the best sales and win the most comps....
> 
> Liam Lynch: United States of Whatever - YouTube



For example, most of us know that Maxxsonics(Hifonics/Autotek/Crunch/MBQ) aren't considered high end by any means, but their top-end stuff certainly does rated power+. The crunch line I consider flee market material. But for example a few years ago, the Crunch GP3000.1d-Pro was rated for [email protected], but we were able to clamp about 5kW at 1.2ohm/16V, and 3900W+/13v. Team Maxxsonics was one of the most winning crew in the history of competition with titles and SPL records.
I don't really sell their gear through the shop, although I have access to it through distribution, and several friends who are big with the company. Most of their products are a price-point seller, but I will tell you though, the guys who work there REALLY care about the product they are pushing, not just saving 0.3 Cents per unit sold.


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## Oliver

If it says "Proudly made in __________ !" Japan, Mexico, Indonesia, Korea, China, India, etc..,

*I'm good !*


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## papacueball

What about the other side of the coin? Senseless brand loyalty. It seems like one often feeds the other, especially on car audio forums.


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## Bayboy

Brand loyalty is somewhat controversial. It is not necessarily a bad thing as everyone has their tastes and specific reasons. It's when we try to push those reasons onto others including the putting down of other gear in the process.

If we went back through the history of car audio and could name all the single products that were just even hidden gems from various brands that no one could deny what would we wind up with? Pretty much the basis for this site....


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## Bayboy

I always look at products in the same fashion as any other..... never jump on the first ones as it may take a while before the bugs are worked out. At the same time, some products are not given a fair trial simply because of supposed notoriety, but I can attest to having used several products that were actually surprising in performance & value despite. 

The Cadence F100-5 is one of them and is still going strong to this day. It has been auditioned on various drivers (Peerless, Dayton Reference, Jamo, JBL, Polk) and not one time has it overheated, shut down, hiccuped, farted, etc.. There was also a semi review speaking of how dysfunctional the remote bass control was. Come to find out that it works perfectly fine as long as you have the low pass xover engaged! That part was was probably omitted in the manual, but overall the amp is a heck of a deal (well it was... it's a memory now). Now how many would have thought of that? How many turned their nose up to it? Yet, how many will admit to it's older version (FXA series) being somewhat of a forum boner years ago? It's a bit of a beast in size, but it's final price was also a beast of a deal.

It boils down to someone has to be the guinea pig eventually. It's when others denounce the legitimacy of such trials by throwing in all sorts of points that doesn't even matter. 

We tend to forget car audio isn't really all that complex. The tools are there for us to manipulate it and a lot more than it used to be. One day we all will lament over even the little brands that have disappeared. I love quality products, but I also love finding hidden gems and that means I can not overlook or bash any particular name.


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## Hi-FiDelity

Oliver said:


> If it says "Proudly made in __________ !" Japan, Mexico, Indonesia, Korea, China, India, etc..,
> 
> *I'm good !*


So your bassicly saying it doesn't matter where it's made as long as it does what you expect it to do for the price.


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## RNBRAD

Who was it back in the mid 90's took an entry level brand (Orions Cobalt line) used everything Cobalt and won his class at Iasca finals? It was a point to show it wasn't necessary to use the "best" equipment to compete among the best. Probably plenty of people bashing the brand, then got bashed by the brand. :laugh:


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## Bayboy

Hi-FiDelity said:


> So your bassicly saying it doesn't matter where it's made as long as it does what you expect it to do for the price.




That is exactly the point (within reason). You have to keep in mind that engineering & actual production may take place apart in location. It is up to quality control to insure specs are adhered to at that point. Any 3 of those can be a failure no matter what location or name is attached. Also it helps to have consumers using the equipment in a proper manner. If it's a piss poor design then none of the latter will matter. That's where things differ.


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## Hi-FiDelity

Bayboy said:


> That is exactly the point (within reason). You have to keep in mind that engineering & actual production may take place apart in location. It is up to quality control to insure specs are adhered to at that point. Any 3 of those can be a failure no matter what location or name is attached. Also it helps to have consumers using the equipment in a proper manner. If it's a piss poor design then none of the latter will matter. That's where things differ.


My sentiments exactly. I've seen some pretty bad gear lauded as Top Tier because of a attached brand name, some of the latter model Pioneer Premeir gear come to mind. On the flip I've seen some pretty well made underdog gear that get's poopoo'ed because it's not from "brand X", clarion's more recend gear is an example of this. I mean yeah it's not Mcintosh or Zed quality but it's not trying to be.


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## Oliver

Hi-FiDelity,

We all would rather pay $69.00 for our amps 

*But, when we drive em like we stole em *>>> they break 

So, just drop down the $$$$ one time, on a great amp, instead of replacing the shoddy one 2,3 ,4 ,5 times


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## Hillbilly SQ

papacueball said:


> What about the other side of the coin? Senseless brand loyalty. It seems like one often feeds the other, especially on car audio forums.


I'm loyal to the brand I run but wouldn't call it "senseless". I'm sure certain people do think I'm suffering from senseless brand loyalty. I personally don't care what everyone else runs as long as they're happy. As for why I'm so loyal to the brand I run, they're great speakers that fit my needs. And the man behind it all doesn't get offended if I say I didn't care for something in his lineup. He understands that what one person loves someone else might hate. "It's all about what sounds right". Take my truck for example...some have loved it and others hated it. I don't get offended in the least bit unless someone says the way they think something is supposed to sound is right and everyone else doesn't know anything about car audio.


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## Oliver

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Take my truck for example...some have loved it *and others hated it.* I don't get offended in the least bit unless someone says the way they think something is supposed to sound is right and everyone else doesn't know anything about car audio.


*Whatcha think they might be sayin* 

:laugh:


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## decibelle

Bayboy said:


> *I always look at products in the same fashion as any other..... never jump on the first ones as it may take a while before the bugs are worked out. * At the same time, some products are not given a fair trial simply because of supposed notoriety, but I can attest to having used several products that were actually surprising in performance & value despite.


*I learned this the hard way twice. Never again...* I like this post of yours. 


I don't understand what the gripe is with MB Quart Onyx series. I beat the crap out of mine and it didn't give me any sass. Maybe I'm just lucky though. My Q-series, however... either hit or miss. One I had was a hit, the other a sorry miss, and I know I'm not the only one to have that experience.

I don't have brand loyalty but I do have team loyalty, so I can understand it to a point. Supporting the people who support you, that's fair. What I don't get is the nuthuggers who whore themselves out to the next big thing just cause it's there and they wanna be with the in-crowd. Or the fellas who buy a product because its price is 4 digits instead of 3, and not much else. If we spend big bucks on a new amp from any given big-name company and it sucks, we're going to justify the hell out of it to ourselves because it's almost taboo to be the guy who's first to say that this new high-end product isn't what it's cracked up to be. It's like it's the ultimate sin in car audio, and it's just silly.


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## Melodic Acoustic

Here is my thing about loyalty to Brands/Companies.

I represent my own Brand/Company and I 199% loyal to it, but that does not mean I will bash other products to make my product seem better and i'm against anyone that represent my products doing it also. I love many different products on the market and I will admit it any day of the week. If it is a nice or good or great or outstanding or amazing product no matter the cost or company, then it is.

Thing is, so much of it is subjective and that is just fine as we have the right to like what we like. The things is, just like the more affordable brands the more costly brands have their share of issues all so. But any day I would spend the extra money for a product that i know has higher quality parts that is well built and as a track record of success and quality. So therefor, we have a somewhat better feeling of knowing there is less of a chance there will be an issue and *knowing you will get exactly what is advertised.*

When we spend our money we want what is advertised, plan and simple. Now here come that human subjective part and the build quality part. Some will have amazing luck with it then others will have the worst experience that have ever had with it. And this has happen with the low end companies as well as the High-end companies. Now here come the brand bashing by some and loyalty by others. Now, what is the ratio of the two? You know there is saying; Hear it once, ya right - Hear it twice, hmmmm - Hear it 3 times, ok maybe it is the truth!

Here is where my loyalty is. My loyalty is in the people or person that represent said brand or company. Now it helps when the products are as advertised and like anyone else, I do not want to have loyalty to a brand that is not as advertised.

I am loyal to people/brands that have gone out their way to support me or my Team even when they did not have to. 

I am loyal to people/brands because when I have input, i can voice my opinion and it is taken into account. 

I am loyal to people/brands because their products is as advertised. 

I am loyal to people/brands because if something goes wrong I and my team knows it will be resolved as quickly as humanly possible.

So I am loyal to the people that represent the company/brand therefor i have brand loyalty, one in the same. 

I do have an issue with people who want to ride the fence with a brand that supports them to no end, your in or your not. I do have a problem with people who just try to get what they can because they know said company will go out their way to make the customer happy. I do have a problem with people that will not stand by a company that support them, does that mean you can not like or use other brands. IT SHOULD NOT MEAN THAT, but some companies feel like it should!

I say be loyal to the companies/brands that support you and the ones that produce great products affordable or costly* (even that has its levels, as what is costly to one person, maybe affordable to the next)*. I say be loyal to the companies/brands that are as advertised.


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## Bayboy

Very well said!


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## branocalo

+1 ...

and I have 2 alpha 8" subs that were post buy-out that are in my wifes car and I cannot say enough about those litle monsters!
Fantastic for what what I paid for them.


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## 07azhhr

Hi-FiDelity said:


> I mean do you really thing that a company is going to buy them for the sole purpose of running them into the ground. I don't see the business sense in that at all.
> .


I would not think any company would have the intent of running the purchased companyies into the ground BUT it is very very common for a company to buy a big name company just for the name. Sometimes they try their hardest to keep the perceived quality of the purchased company but cannot afford to as they watch the profits disapear. This happens in many industrys. I live in AZ now insted of CA because of this. My company at that time ran our site for as long as it made a profit and then transfered all the product to another build location and shut that site down. 

So what I am getting at is that yes many of these bought out companies suffer from a downgrade in quality from the origional quality level. Some get bought out yet again and finally land in the hands of a company that wants to get back to the origional quality levels. 

When Hifonics and Autotek were bought by Maxxonics they instantly all became the same amp and started showing up in Fry's electronics. At the time Autotek had started to climb to a very respectable level too. It was a shame. Now Autotek seems like it is even lower then Crunch.


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## Bayboy

cajunner said:


> nuthugging is a vice, not a virtue.
> 
> being loyal to a brand, is a foreign concept to me. I understand it, I can appreciate when others do it, but it's never been a mode I operate around.
> 
> I've never had a system built from one brand's parts, and matching anything with anything is a gesture of vanity, some minds need that symmetry, I don't.
> 
> I'll slap 3 amps into an aesthetic based on their availability more than their "cohesive" quality, and mismatch just as easily, because I have no illusions about function over form.
> 
> does this mean I'm wrong?
> 
> I think it's just a pragmatic approach, superseding the fanfare of show builds and dropping down one step to what works, above anything else.


I can agree with this and have done so for many years although now I must admit that I've become a bit anal about aesthetics. This brings about a conundrum especially when trying to utilize a neat amp rack. Now I'm into matching looks, but can not always find the power ranges or features wanted especially when desiring staggered power for a 4-way setup.

Sometimes sacrifices has to be made in what brand or tier is opted for. Perfect example is the JL XD series with the 600/6 plus 600/1. Love the looks, but wanted more power to the midbass channel for better flexibility so that option got scratched. Going the route of a 5 channel with a separate higher power 2 channel seems to be the best fit, but of course most 5 channel amps seem to lack on the sub's output. 

There's always some sort of sacrifice that can push you into other directions beyond loyalty. Is that a bit anal? Perhaps, but I think it is well justified unless you don't mind constantly switching amps to suit each different set of drivers you want to try.


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## Bayboy

07azhhr said:


> I would not think any company would have the intent of running the purchased companyies into the ground BUT it is very very common for a company to buy a big name company just for the name. Sometimes they try their hardest to keep the perceived quality of the purchased company but cannot afford to as they watch the profits disapear. This happens in many industrys. I live in AZ now insted of CA because of this. My company at that time ran our site for as long as it made a profit and then transfered all the product to another build location and shut that site down.
> 
> So what I am getting at is that yes many of these bought out companies suffer from a downgrade in quality from the origional quality level. Some get bought out yet again and finally land in the hands of a company that wants to get back to the origional quality levels.
> 
> When Hifonics and Autotek were bought by Maxxonics they instantly all became the same amp and started showing up in Fry's electronics. At the time Autotek had started to climb to a very respectable level too. It was a shame. Now Autotek seems like it is even lower then Crunch.




I think this thread has revealed more truths than most are willing to admit any other time. There is no doubt in my mind that some companies simply scooped up others in hopes to profit off of nothing more than a past reputation without a care to further or increase the quality. I dare not name those who I am alluding to, but I'm sure most already have the same in mind.

There was an earlier thread naming such companies that have fallen from grace and when looking at the numbers you can't help but wonder at this point who is next to fall prey. With only a few remaining that have held out, you have few choices in what to stick with unless you don't mind researching or being a guinea pig to find what's left or has slipped through the cracks.


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## Bayboy

cajunner said:


> it is a side issue, this brand loyalty extending into the product selection.
> 
> I can understand wanting an aesthetic as you optimize other aspects of a build, some people will buy things on the shallow, and as long as it works and they get satisfaction, pride of ownership ensues.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is that this forum is driven with builds that have matching amps, matching speaker brands, etc. and rarely does anyone see a build with several different brand products with vastly differing aesthetics and appreciate the product selection on the basis of sound quality.
> 
> we see with our eyes, but we hear with our ears.
> 
> pretty hard to prove that our brain should shut down what comes into the visual cortex and give credit to what the auditory centers are getting.



True... but I'm not going to deny that one of the best sounding setups I've had also contained the ugliest mismatch of amps. :laugh: I've improved or at least have a known target sound that can be reproduced consistently. If I can only find a suitable matching amp setup to complete my happiness. If it were in a trunk instead of a suv then I wouldn't care as much. Which brand of amps that will get chosen, I have no stringent preference on that except to be able to fit them in the desired space.


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## thomasluke

cajunner said:


> I've been guilty of viewing a build thread where someone had a bunch of product and none of it matched brands or even finishes, and thought "that looks like something a teenager might put together"
> 
> when in fact it may have been a well-thought out design based on sound principles and just looked unruly.
> 
> I think it takes a bit of a mental jump to hurdle the aesthetic compromise, and see the value as it is presented.
> 
> I bet judges think the same way even if they are trained not to do that, we can't help what we like, on a visual perspective.


I'm guilty of this myself. I use to to not care or think twice about running two, three different amps from three different company's. 
But somewhere along the line I decided that my gear needed to match.
Now I find myself in a new truck with a Pioneer hu a set of JL comps, an Alpine sub and two JBL amps.
Now all of this worked GREAT before but what do I do? Sell most of it take a pretty substantial hit on the resale and dump more money into a set up that is most likely going to be nothing but a side step And may not be as easy to get to the level of sound that i was at to start with.
But at least it looks better.


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## Bayboy

Some of that is not that far fetched in being justified though. There's nothing wrong with aesthetics else manufacturers wouldn't try to add cosmetic appeal to their products. Like said, it's when aesthetics supersede functionality & performance does it become silly.


I agree HAVING to match everything from front to back often serves no advantage beyond eye candy, but matching/symmetrical amps should be a given. After all, we may be audio heads but most do take pride in their vehicle so that presents an extra challenge: looking natural/stock while sounding good. I don't think that is too much to ask of any company. In fact I've looked at several company's offerings and lots of them make no sense in design continuity within a line. When you don't offer flexibility, or you add pieces that don't really fit the equation of your usual consumer's needs or even what is common beyond a basic install then it becomes quite asinine. There's a lot that fall under that so I won't name any names. Basically a lot of companies are simply being complacent in what they offer and consumers are just settling for it.

When you add all that up, it's not hard to see how loyalty can be built towards companies who do give a damn. So I don't think it's as simple as a black & white issue and I won't label it an absolute negative. There's many shades of gray in there and even as aficionados we tend to demand such attributes (low distortion power, compactness, flexibility, symmetry, dependability, etc). A good company should offer these things without cost being a major factor, but that is subjective so we can leave that out for now because that is not really a whole lot to ask for when you think about it.


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## Bayboy

cajunner said:


> But that's a few degrees off of the OP topic.




I would say you're still on point. Mcintosh is the epitome of why some still hold value vs brands simply riding off of a past name gone bad in current times. Can everyone afford it? No, but should they be given less credit than other high class companies with less time on the market? Heck no! There's quite a few miniscule companies that while even though have been compromised, they are still flourishing & putting out decent products (at a lesser level than before) and with far more market time than some of these boutique brands. MB Quart is one for example... Considering that, it's not easy to bash just any company without an in-depth look at them as a whole.


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## Hi-FiDelity

cajunner said:


> MB Quart is a case in point, I believe the engineers who built the first break-through products in their auto speakers, made such a profound impact because they put a premium on the actual product, and marketing was a second-tier motivator on their bottom line.
> 
> then, years later they moved into the mainstream when they busted out their Discus, Premium, Reference, and Q lines.
> 
> This was a weakening of the core that they arrived on the market with, and McIntosh hasn't done this.
> 
> But, McIntosh (car audio) might be done for, so if sustainability is the capitalist penultimate, we may never see that design aesthetic again.
> 
> apparently, the consumer demands a luxury good to increase one's own cachet in show-off-manship, rather than the performance of the good.
> 
> Or, keeping up with the market means McIntosh will need to revamp their entire legacy of bigger than necessary audio components, and succumb to the increasing pressures of a marketing of the small.


McIntosh's car audio division is in no danger of dying or getting bought out. The company as a whole are part of the D&M holdings company, there home audio division covers the bills. For them car audio is the little bit of cash on the side. That and in recent years they've been doing custom OEM premium systems for various car manufacturers. 

While it's true that when MB was bought out by maxxsonics the perceived level of quality did drop drastically but the actual quality didn't drop as much as people thought. People started ragging on them cause they were now a "mainstream" manufacturer but that doesn't mean they stop trying to adhere to the companies original beliefs. To offer a respectable quality product that would be competitive in the market and I think they continue to do that. It also seems that most of are in agreement on that. I mean you can't compare a $300 4-channel MB Quart Reference to a $1,200 4 channel Helix Competition series and call it a fair comparison.


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## RNBRAD

Good info. I've always thought McIntosh has a name and a niche I can't see will ever die. With their home audio gear following, their car line is just one of those weekend part time jobs for a little extra spending money. 




Hi-FiDelity said:


> I mean you can't compare a $300 4-channel MB Quart Reference to a $1,200 4 channel Helix Competition series and call it a fair comparison.


A fair comparison would be in a double blind ABX study, then their virtues would become indiscernible.


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## bigaudiofanatic

I am guilty of bashing pioneer. Simply because of my multiple past experiences with their products.


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## Bayboy

bigaudiofanatic said:


> I am guilty of bashing pioneer. Simply because of my multiple past experiences with their products.


Everyone will have their preference regardless what reasons they give. No one will convince me past using what I deem good enough for myself. Some will swear by Alpine, Pioneer, Clarion, etc.... I use what suits the system I have in mind.


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## EliteEmerz

I only bash the brands I've used.

Sony xPlod for example, for me at least, have done exactly that, and exploded.

There are a few brands I swear by. Now I feel like old school is the only way to go if you want real power from an amplifier.

I feel like all brands have their ups and downs. For example Alpine. I LOVE their head units. Clear sound quality and a million options. I'm alright with their amps, I've heard their amplifiers out do my expectations, and at the same time some I am surprised how mediocre some of them perform. Their subwoofers/speakers on the other hand, total garbage. I've blown almost every level of subwoofer made by them and have had speakers **** the bed only being powered by the head unit. So, I'll use their head units, and a select few amps, but I'd almost rather have sony subwoofers in my trunk


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## Bayboy

The problem with a lot of it is it's clearly subjectively based though many will not admit it. I don't care what who measured because it's been proven over & over that people clearly like some level of distortion! At that point, numbers only tell so much and we have to admit to ourselves it's more or less rather just preference. Then if it's preference, who are we as individuals to claim we are the standard for everyone else?! I keep having to remind myself of that. 

That does not include junk gear that is gross in performance.

Also, I have even seen some give regurgitated reviews on gear they haven't listened to. I mean really now?!  If you don't know then you don't need to talk as if you do because how another likes their sound my not be what you prefer but I digress....


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## Oliver

Oliver said:


> If it says "Proudly made in __________ !" Japan, Mexico, Indonesia, Korea, China, India, etc..,
> 
> *I'm good !*


If it is just some piece of crap rolled out from a factory, it won't say: "Proudly Made in Our Country!"


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## Bayboy

cajunner said:


> I'm guilty of this too.
> 
> for instance, I'll accept an esteemed someone's review of Silver Flute products, without having ever heard them or had them.
> 
> I will rank Silver Flute mids below the higher cost options on Madisound or Parts Express, based simply on regurgitated opinion and I believe I'm not the only one.
> 
> I shouldn't do it, and not having heard Esotar product, I shouldn't automatically expect the Dyn product to outperform Silver Flute, but I do.
> 
> I was accused of having a bias towards "my" drivers, when I didn't even own or have even heard those drivers in a recent test by some sensitive members here, and it's not even what I was doing, I had not given any review but I was assumed to have a favorite in the field.
> 
> I'd say the internet is filled with opinions based on extrapolation, based on wishful thinking and assumptions, based on a lot of things other than actual experience with the products. I've heard plenty of product over many years and in some possibly narcissistic way, I prefer to believe that qualifies me to have an opinion, but if I have no experience with something, I'll put that in, in disclosure.


I commend your honesty! I think we all are guilty of that. Here's a recent example of mines:

With all the talk of how weak & clinical sounding the Dayton HO is in a sealed enclosure, I fell prey to that and sometimes repeated to others knowing all the while I still had some nice sounds that could not be easily repeated from other subs. Just recently I decided to put it back in, ran off of a an even lesser amp and what do you know..... I like it. In fact, I missed it's clinical character.  I have become used to the tonal character of the Reference series and can say I have acquired an ear for that sort of sound in this particular vehicle. I should simply embrace & capitolize upon it!

Like stated earlier, sometimes we have to admit it is all about preference in some ways. If not, you could wind up chasing a dragon when the real thing was up under your nose the whole time. And to boot, downing something in ways that isn't deserving of such criticism.


----------



## Bayboy

cajunner said:


> and a moving goal line.
> 
> I know I am hard-pressed to not submit to the infinite wisdom of the "no rear fill" crowd, when I prefer it.
> 
> the use of "lossy 256K bitrate Mp3" as a source, because everyone can immediately tell how much material is missing from their memory of the song, even if they haven't heard it in months off their CD.
> 
> how an extra A/D, D/A conversion is automatically susceptible to causing a loss of focus and putting the dream of high fidelity out of reach of the average car audio enthusiast.
> 
> getting all excited because someone claims their 2 channel system without processing, or DSP at the least, makes them happy, because we all know that in a car you CANNOT be happy without time alignment and at least 16 bands of left-right equalizer.



Say mannnn..... are you trying to get us jumped on & booted out of here?! You can't say those sort of things!


----------



## Bayboy

cajunner said:


> well, it was a tangential, brand-love is akin to feature-fanboi types, who need the latest gadget to attempt entry into the vaunted airs of competitive car sounds.
> 
> sponsorship aside, what good reason does anyone have to bash a brand, anyway?
> 
> I can understand a little vendetta over some loss of self-deluded ideas, or the promise of manufacturer tweaks not living up to hype, but most products in the market perform to a level today, that it's actually hard to find obviously flawed product.
> 
> That's a curse, when people are determined to force their allegiance in a direction, as all roads lead to Rome now, some might be more scenic but it's not because the same land is not covered.


Sounds like justification for a stringent, but fun contest based upon a very limited budget & requiring all BNIB gear at retail cost. Wish they had that sort of thing here....


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

I'm guilty of needing time alignment and 16 bands of l/r eq in my land yaught of a vehicle to be happy. Otherwise coherence just isn't there in my stealth install using stock locations. My 880 bit the dust last night and less than an hour I had ordered the new p80 to go in its place. I burn all my cd's in lossless because every time I do mp3's in the typical 256kbps my stage gets squashed into a pancake. Sucks the dynamics right out of it. Or maybe my software just sucks donkey? Oh, autotune processors make me wanna pull my hair out! I can do a better job myself! Well Imprint seemed to do an OK job imo.


----------



## Bayboy

Double post


----------



## Bayboy

Here's a key to a lot of this... many have been on here for quite some time. Years ago (I won't say how many ) I remember perusing through and seeing some of you while I was just a guest, but a member elsewhere. A lot of the ways & mentality from back then has been lost due to brand bashing, fan boying, snobbing, etc... Of course there has been the discovery of various boutique brands that are quite alluring, but in the process the use of raw home audio drivers, hidden gem budget amps, etc has gone a bit wayside.

How do we get some of that back without the mass criticism and prejudice based upon name & cost?


----------



## Ultimateherts

I think people bash brands based on what's going on in their life... Example they get divorced the first time they heard JBL, then they would link the sound of JBL to the memory of getting divorced.


----------



## Bayboy

Ultimateherts said:


> I think people bash brands based on what's going on in their life... Example they get divorced the first time they heard JBL, then they would link the sound of JBL to the memory of getting divorced.


ROTFLMAO!!!


----------



## subwoofery

Ultimateherts said:


> I think people bash brands based on what's going on in their life... Example they get divorced the first time they heard JBL, then they would link the sound of JBL to the memory of getting divorced.


If I buy me some Magico Q7, I might/surely get a divorce but I'm not sure I'm gonna hate Magico  

Kelvin


----------



## RNBRAD

Ultimateherts said:


> I think people bash brands based on what's going on in their life... Example they get divorced the first time they heard JBL, then they would link the sound of JBL to the memory of getting divorced.


Wonder if that idea will work in reverse? I'll listen to a set of Boss components while having sex. Ehh nevermind, that would ruin the sex and be back in the same boat.


----------



## Bayboy

cajunner said:


> we need a captain that has a Klippel, and uses it to make objective measurements and the occasional shootout threads.
> 
> this ship hasn't carried much weight since the old days when it made sense to expect a better product out of Denmark than China, or even Japan.
> 
> 
> nowadays the Japan product is pretty good, and the rising tide that carries all ships, means that even mid grade is pretty well listenable stuff.
> 
> I guess I've gotten less judgmental in my maturing views on things like brand fascism and TEAM this vs. Clique that..
> 
> it's all car audio and what's left of the aftermarket is being pinched so tight we all need to band together and make a ginormous smiley face in the face of stiff competition from the OEM premium rackets that Bose and JBL started, back in the day...


One thing is for sure, the heydays of car audio has long peaked and has been in the decline for quite some time. Even raw drivers are slowly disappearing. As you brought out, with the demise of both it is imperative that we lose a bit of the snobbery else all that will be left is pure junk or extreme high dollar offerings that are merely beyond what used to be basic.

As this cycle continues, it's important to discover other means & sources for the DIY hobby to thrive in the form most here admire. The battle has long begun in a war that is pretty much futile since some of the reputable names have either dropped out altogether or crossed over into OEM premium systems that will be hard to beat unless you spend a bunch in pretty much rehashing the system or driving older model vehicles. This you have spoke of already and some are starting to realize just how difficult it is. 

In another thread it was already listed the countless amount of good companies that eventually died off or fell from grace. Some even going poof before reaching their peak which is sad. I'm sure some will object and they are more than welcome to do so, but one thing all can not deny is the narrower the market, the worse it will be. While some companies are struggling to make a comeback, it should be just as much as important to give all a fair trial & review with usefulness for each tier in mind. Before Boston Acoustics bailed out, I'm sure not many took notice of their mid to lower tier products. Now look how many scrambled to buy up the remainder knowing that it was too late for such support. Pretty much ass backwards IMO.


----------



## Ultimateherts

I get the feeling like manfacturers pay people to register on forums like this just to do this exact thing. If you really don't like the brand let them know via their twitter or facebook account. Least wise then they will give you something for it. 

It goes back to the 40's and 50's during election time. Where someone would put a bumper sticker on their car of the canidate they hated the most. Then they would go driving around like an ass cutting people off so that they would see the bumper sticker and say "I'm not voting for him look at his supporters!"


----------



## Bayboy

Ultimateherts said:


> I get the feeling like manfacturers pay people to register on forums like this just to do this exact thing. If you really don't like the brand let them know via their twitter or facebook account. Least wise then they will give you something for it.
> 
> It goes back to the 40's and 50's during election time. Where someone would put a bumper sticker on their car of the canidate they hated the most. Then they would go driving around like an ass cutting people off so that they would see the bumper sticker and say "I'm not voting for him look at his supporters!"



Funny that you mention it..... I have to admit at times it does seem as if some are actually paid not only to bash, but highly promote just a certain brand as if it is the bee's knees when we all know damn well the hobby itself urges most to periodically try new things. Just the nature of the beast unfortunately, but that cycling of gear is also a good thing as that is how new ideas & products are found. Even when we think we have found a suitable setup worth keeping, the bug kicks in and we want to go another route. The cycling of gear is also a win situation for those who aren't willing or can't afford to pay retail get decent deals.


----------



## Ultimateherts

I've been around a while, but you used to see this on termpro forums all the time. To me it seemed like the SPL crowd had more negative opinions than the SQ crowd. I don't know if that was because they had actual hard data in the SPL numbers they were doin and with SQ it's more subjective? 

Let's face it when something is louder you notice it right away and this is coming from a person that sat in a 150DB CRX where the windsield was flexing almost an inch. After hearing that vehicle I vowed that my hearing was more important!


----------



## EliteEmerz

Ultimateherts said:


> I've been around a while, but you used to see this on termpro forums all the time. To me it seemed like the SPL crowd had more negative opinions than the SQ crowd. I don't know if that was because they had actual hard data in the SPL numbers they were doin and with SQ it's more subjective?
> 
> Let's face it when something is louder you notice it right away and this is coming from a person that sat in a 150DB CRX where the windsield was flexing almost an inch. After hearing that vehicle I vowed that my hearing was more important!


While I do love systems, I agree there. Some people go a little to big. Local guy put 22 12s in an s10 blazer. No reason for that.

Sent from my A500 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Bayboy

EliteEmerz said:


> While I do love systems, I agree there. Some people go a little to big. Local guy put 22 12s in an s10 blazer. No reason for that.
> 
> Sent from my A500 using Tapatalk 2




If he is trying to compete then perhaps it is justified. 


The thing is with all this is no matter what brand (including Pyramid, Legacy, Pyle, etc) you have to know of the limitations beforehand in order to properly implement it. I don't care if the numbers are off from what it states as that's fairly expected with lower tiers. In fact, if you want to know what it really does then clamp, bench, meter, etc it! What's more important is the actual value and usefulness for what you are wanting to use it for. No one should be willing to pay gobs of money for something that doesn't produce what it states, but I'm sure many can & have built a "el cheapo" system for a girlfriend, buddy, etc that performed well when all were taken in consideration.

IE, can I get a couple of flea market amps to play decently enough to use? I'm confident that I can! Will it be of quality compared to something considerably more in cost? Maybe not and I wouldn't expect it to be. Will it have limitations? Doesn't all systems??? I've used amps from Boss, Cadence, US Acoustics, to RF, to Hafler and I can tell you this.... every system I have took the time to match & install sounded just the way I expected. That is the key! I didn't expect something that I know wasn't possible from the gear being used and the cost of such accompanied my choices as well. Therefore I have no reason to bash a certain brand. If I bash one, then that means it was my dumb ass that chose wrong for my application in the first place.


----------



## EliteEmerz

Yea I don't think he was competing. If he was he must have lost because he had no trophies!!! Tried to sell it on craigslist with the sentence "I need to have the doors rewelded and fixed because the bass has rattled them off." Gave me a good giggle :thumbup:

Sent from my A500 using Tapatalk 2


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## rgiorgio

I used to run nothing but Alphisonc Amps back in the 80's. Loved them. You telling me they are still the same amp? They used to be mainstream and sold by Sound Advice back in the day plus every other car audio store.


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

rgiorgio said:


> I used to run nothing but Alphisonc Amps back in the 80's. Loved them. You telling me they are still the same amp? They used to be mainstream and sold by Sound Advice back in the day plus every other car audio store.


My direct experience with them was post 2002 buy out (2002-2004) and was primarily with their amps and subs. While they may not have been in the same league as some of the ultra high end brands we sold but they were defiantly a solidly made product. From what I've heard on their current offerings (primarily amps) they seem to be on par with MB Quart's reference/onyx, Infinity's Kappa/reference, and PPI's Black Ice/Power Class lines. So while they may not be world beating amps they seem to still be a pretty solid product.


----------



## Bayboy

Hi-FiDelity said:


> My direct experience with them was post 2002 buy out (2002-2004) and was primarily with their amps and subs. While they may not have been in the same league as some of the ultra high end brands we sold but they were defiantly a solidly made product. From what I've heard on their current offerings (primarily amps) they seem to be on par with MB Quart's reference/onyx, Infinity's Kappa/reference, and PPI's Black Ice/Power Class lines. So while they may not be world beating amps they seem to still be a pretty solid product.


You can't say things like that! It's not a high brand name anymore.... we don't care if it's been tested or not. Don't even care if there was never a fair review. If it's not produced by the illuminati then it is not deserving of any sort of recognition, praise, hell..... not even a trial!


----------



## EliteEmerz

rgiorgio said:


> I used to run nothing but Alphisonc Amps back in the 80's. Loved them. You telling me they are still the same amp? They used to be mainstream and sold by Sound Advice back in the day plus every other car audio store.


I recently got an Alphasonik 2 channel off craigslist, 90's model. I cant remember exact model number, maybe 2075E or similar, but man did it impress me for its size, both in power and in performance. I had it driving 2 10" subwoofers and couldn't believe how it performed against a friends fosgate 220.2 (which technically claims more power but certainly didn't sound as good or go as loud). Right now I run an 05ish model 5 channel amplifier (PMZ12005A), and recently put a Q2150 in a buddys car. While they're probably not the most high end amps, they've impressed me so far, at least at the average consumer level of car audio.

After all, I'm driving a car worth 4000$, so I'm not looking to put 4000$ into my audio quite yet :laugh:


----------



## Bayboy

That's something to note, are we getting good use out of what we chose & properly implemented? It really doesn't matter what the specs say (within reason), almost all goes out the door when put in a car & playing music. Of course there's a certain level to stay above, but if we're as knowledgeable in this hobby as we claim, then why so much insecurity?!


----------



## therapture

cajunner said:


> and a moving goal line.
> 
> I know I am hard-pressed to not submit to the infinite wisdom of the "no rear fill" crowd, when I prefer it.
> 
> the use of "lossy 256K bitrate Mp3" as a source, because everyone can immediately tell how much material is missing from their memory of the song, even if they haven't heard it in months off their CD.
> 
> how an extra A/D, D/A conversion is automatically susceptible to causing a loss of focus and putting the dream of high fidelity out of reach of the average car audio enthusiast.
> 
> getting all excited because *someone claims their 2 channel system without processing, or DSP at the least, makes them happy,* because we all know that in a car you CANNOT be happy without time alignment and at least 16 bands of left-right equalizer.



I have been happy for a long time with no DSP or EQ, but now that I started down the road to SQ, I see no end in sight. There's always _SOMETHING MORE_ to do. I guess I was happy, but ignorant, before. I used to always snub at the DSP crowd, thinking those guys were just wasting money, when in fact I was just ignorant of the reality. When I heard my first DSP rig, with some of my fave tunes, I about jizzed my boxers 



edit: I was even going to change my Crunch amps out, but some forum members here (respected ones at that!) told me not to yet. Get deeper into the install. Get deeper into tuning. The old mantra "cheap parts put together correctly, will sound far better than expensive parts put together wrong" has alot of truth to it.


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## Bayboy

Part of the problem with that is while you have experienced a vast improvement in certain aspects, knowing when to stop becomes the next problem. We listen & compare other systems to ours and immediately want to attain the same sound or level. Next thing you know you're on a perilous venture of switching gear for lateral moves of sonic signature that constantly taps into your wallet.


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## therapture

Yep, I can see that. Since I already have plans to change my two amps to a single big mother one day...after I spend a few weeks playing with what I have added recently.


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## cleansoundz

Subscribed.


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## therapture

I did change my two Crunch anniversary series amps out, for a single Alpine PDX-V9.

Did I notice much difference in sound? Not alot....if any, maybe a touch brighter...and maybe not.

What I did gain was footprint area...and since I re-did all the wiring, correctly and neatly, I got a lower noise floor. Install, install, install....



NOBODY bashed the sound before with the Crunch amps...or after...i.e., 99% of people CANNOT tell the difference.


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## Hi-FiDelity

therapture said:


> ..., 99% of people CANNOT tell the difference.


That's true for the most part but the bashing I was talking about was more the "I dislike this brand for Reason X, regardless if it's true or not. So if any one use one of there products they are using crap and are a noob/idiot/uneducated". It's not as terribly common on here as apposed to some other sites but it's a mentality I've never quite under stood.


----------



## therapture

Hi-FiDelity said:


> That's true for the most part but the bashing I was talking about was more the "I dislike this brand for Reason X, regardless if it's true or not. So if any one use one of there products they are using crap and are a noob/idiot/uneducated". It's not as terribly common on here as apposed to some other sites but it's a mentality I've never quite under stood.


Oh yeah bro, I understand what you are saying. Like the guy in the stereo shop saying that Kenwood amplifiers suck to every customer in sight, he had one once, and his pair of 12's distorted badly, but now he got a Rockford amp and it's the next best thing since fake titties.


----------



## Bayboy

The next best thing since fake titties..... LMAO!!!


----------



## soundcontrol

Every one has opinions and many are based off of something other then facts or experience. If you have worked in retail at all you SHOULD know better then to bash another brand to promote yours. At any given time you may one day be selling that brand and will look like an idiot trying to back pedal on your previous statements.

No matter what it is or where it is made everything has a price point and purpose. Yes there are some very cheap products that are not good. In amplifiers it isn't as cut and dry sometimes as speakers, head units or other items.

Subs can be a bit hard to tell as well. When it does sound bad you know. When I worked at circuit city they would run a special where you would get a pair of free Baja Subs with amp purchase. You could keep them or upgrade them. Most got upgraded but some were installed. I was very impressed with the few pair of 12s in a sealed box we did that had around 200-500 watts on the pair. Sounded great.

Another place they worked amazing was in the Dodge quad cab boxes that were up firing into the rear seat. Small air space that most other subs just sounded like poo. The two best subs we had that worked in that setup were the Bajas and the MTX Road Thunders.

Everything can have a place and a purpose. Proper install and application are what play a huge roll.


----------



## [email protected]

It's hard to judge most brands across the board. Soundstream for example still have well made products at the upper end but the entry level TRA series are pretty shoddily built and have a lot of crossover distortion so sound harsh too. Not really what SoundStream are known for, SQ was always their USP. 
Where product is built is also arbitrary, a lot of good quality product is built in China alongside a lot of junk. It's as much down to decent design, good specifying and decent assembly. Some manufacturers manage to pull this off very well such as JL and Rockford. Some others buy on price and one or more of the factors mentioned above suffer and affect reliability.


----------



## 14642

If you're a retailer, brand bashing is just lazy selling. If you're a fanboy, you've been had.


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

[email protected] said:


> It's hard to judge most brands across the board. Soundstream for example still have well made products at the upper end but the entry level TRA series are pretty shoddily built and have a lot of crossover distortion so sound harsh too. Not really what SoundStream are known for, SQ was always their USP.


Playing devil's advocate here (slightly anyways), take a look at the Trantula lines target demographic. It's mostly young SPL "bass heads" not the group that is looking for amazing SQ nor are they looking to spend lots of cash on an amp. This is the demographic that the current amps from BOSS, Pyle, Legacy, and Lanzar are going after and honestly it's a profitable market and when you compare the Picasso and Trantula amps to these guys it starts looking like a much better option. This goes for pretty much every company out there, they have there cheap lines for the "kids" and they have the higher end lines for those who want better. While some of SS entry level lines may leave something to be desired their Rubicon line definitely makes up for that. They may not have the same QC level as the Reference and XXX lines but they cost a fraction of the price and yet offer a good amount of clean power. So while you can't really judge them broadly across the board you also can't let some of there cheaper entry level lines taint you'r opinion of all there products. 





[email protected] said:


> Where product is built is also arbitrary, a lot of good quality product is built in China alongside a lot of junk. It's as much down to decent design, good specifying and decent assembly. Some manufacturers manage to pull this off very well such as JL and Rockford. Some others buy on price and one or more of the factors mentioned above suffer and affect reliability.


Exactly if Company A take a solid class A/B design and looks for a manufacturer in China that stands behind there product and has high QC standards (and there are plenty of them) and does there own random spot check for QC than country of origin doesn't matter. Though on the other side if they go with the lowest bidder who doesn't or fakes QC checks and uses counterfeit/cheaper parts (so they can pocket some extra cash on the side ) and use a cheap copy of an already cheap Class D amp than yeah the product will suffer. 

There are far more variables involved than where is it made and who owns the company.


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If you're a retailer, brand bashing is just lazy selling. If you're a fanboy, you've been had.


This 100xYES. I can't stand sales people that actively bash brands they personally don't like or don't carry. I personally don't like MSI, Foxconn, or Biostar parts and I will suggest people go with something from AsRock, Asus, or Gigabyte. What I won't do is list of every reason why MSI is **** and every way Asus is good. I let the products do the talking.


----------



## [email protected]

I guess I'm looking at it through an older guys eyes too, wanting something that sounds good and lasts. 
The TR series probably last long enough as the first step on the ladder as young guys develop their systems, and SQ isn't as high a priority as big power.
I do notice the difference in build quality between the SS TR and say JL J2 amps which are also built as entry level products. 
I don't know if they compete head on price wise or are sold through the same channels, (suspect not) but the extra dollar or two makes them much better to work on and more comfortable for me to offer a warranty on the repair.


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

[email protected] said:


> I guess I'm looking at it through an older guys eyes too, wanting something that sounds good and lasts.
> The TR series probably last long enough as the first step on the ladder as young guys develop their systems, and SQ isn't as high a priority as big power.


Not arguing with you at all, in fact I agree. Though if you want to build a system for real cheap and just want "POWER!!!!!!" a class D Trantual should fit the bill and do it better than a BOSS or a PYLE. Now If your a young kid on a budget and want something that will get loud but will also sound pretty good that will last longer than a year I'd say get a SS Rubicon, PPI Black Ice, or JL JX. 



[email protected] said:


> I do notice the difference in build quality between the SS TR and say JL J2 amps which are also built as entry level products.
> I don't know if they compete head on price wise or are sold through the same channels, (suspect not) but the extra dollar or two makes them much better to work on and more comfortable for me to offer a warranty on the repair.


Though you're missing one key difference between the two that has a big impact on the quality of entry level offerings. Soundstream has 8 different amp product lines (Picasso, Tarantula, Rubicon, Stealth, D-Tower, Reference, X^3, XXX) JL has 4 (HD, Slash V3, XD, JX). So Souindstream has to do more cost analysis and determine how much money is needed to make a competent competitor and also what demographic and sub demographic each line has to aim for. This has the effect of allowing massive swings in QC and design among the lower end lines which when compared to other entry level offerings may make them look under matched. Do I think Soundstream needs all those lines? No not really, I'd say role the X^3 and XXX into the same line and do the same with the Trantula and Picasso lines. Hell you could even make the Stealth and D-tower lines sister products (since they appeal to similar markets) and bring the number down to 5.


----------



## Mike Bober

I just get a kick out of the arguing as entertainment! And especially the guys that complain about only buying USA made products when they drive a foreign car daily, and so many here in the states drive foreign made cars that they now manufacture them here because its cheaper for them because of the governments taxing regulations. I just enjoy the show best i can!:laugh:


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Hi-FiDelity said:


> I can get the idea of bashing a brand that actively makes complete garbage and tries to pass it of as quality to prevent people from getting screwed over but the idea of bashing a formerly respected brand on the simple grounds that they have bought out by a larger company kind of confuses me. I’m not saying that this is specific to these forums. I've seen it on many car audio boards and it's always kind of bugged me. I mean do you really thing that a company is going to buy them for the sole purpose of running them into the ground. I don't see the business sense in that at all.
> 
> For example; In 2002 Alphasonik got bought out by the Anaba Group who a few years earlier bough up MA audio and Audiobahn both low to mid level companies in the mobile audio field. The shop I was working at was an Alphasonik dealer and I remember a bunch of people grumbling about how Alpha was gone now and they were just gonna be slapping the Alpha badge on cheaper MA or Audiobahn gear. Needless to say that wasn't and from what I can still tell hasn’t been the case. If anything Alphasonik amps have continued to be well designed and well assembled. I've seen the same thing when people discuss PPI, MB Quart, Infinity, JBL and to a lesser extent Soundstream and Hifonics.
> 
> So why the bashing then, well the main issue I see that people had was the amps were no longer "Proudly Made In The USA". They were designed here and assembled in Taiwan, Malaysia or China and we all know that there is no such thing as a quality manufactures in Asia right. While it's true that Asia and China in particular has gotten a lot of attention for shoddy and questionable build quality you can find many products made in the region that have as much effort put into them as any "MADE IN THE USA" products of the past. While yes a ZED built Alphasonik may have a slightly higher build than a later one I still don't see a massive disparity. It's not like we’re going from McIntosh to Pyle in quality. Again that wouldn't make any kind of business sense; you would lose more money due to the massive drop in customers than you would save in cutting assembly cost.
> 
> Also it would be rather unfair to compare amp that sells for around $300 to an amp that cost around $1,200 and yet this is something I've seen happen on multiple occasions. A favorite wiping boy seams to be MB Quarts Onyx series for some reason, I've seen people post internal shops of a 4-channel Onyx amp and almost immediately the next post is someone bashing the amp sand saying the old Q or DCS series look so much stouter on the inside. They prefer to ignoring the fact that both those lines retailed for 2-4 times the amount that even the most expensive Onyx amp costs. What is also funny with this is a lot of times the guys bashing the Onyx amps are running another Maxxsonic's product (Autotek, Hifonics, and Crunch). My question is what makes those brands immune to cost cutting when they are owned by the same parent company, nothing that’s what.
> 
> Yes this was a bit of a rant if you want to ignore it go ahead I don't care but I would honestly like to hear some opinions of fellow enthusiast on this topic.


I don't work in audio engineering, I work in software engineering. But here is something that I have observed in my line of work, which likely happens in all fields of engineering:


Basically, when I was in college I always assumed that the people that got to work at the most dazzling companies were absolutely the cream of the crop. I never felt that my level of aptitude was particularly high, and when I was 20 years old I figured if I got lucky I'd end up working in I.T. for local government or something like that. My perception was that I wasn't talented enough to run with the big dogs. I thought I'd basically be that nerd that works in the basement of some bleak government office, making sure that the computers didn't melt down or catch on fire, basically the I.T. equivalent of a janitor.

Years later I moved to the state of Washington, where they hand out engineering jobs like they're candy. And I ended up working in the engineering departments of some very large and well known firms.

Much to my surprise, 95% of the engineers at these world class firms were nothing to write home about. I am not saying that they were outright inept; it's just that they were *just* good enough to get the job done, and no better. So the next time you're cursing at a piece of software, and wonder why it's completely boneheaded, or slow, or buggy, *that's why.* It's because a lot of engineers get their gigs because they happened to live in the right city. No more, no less.


BUT...

There's that five percent, maybe even that one percent, that's just EXCEPTIONAL. You meet these guys, and they just light up a room. I've probably met and worked with a thousand engineers, but I can count maybe five or ten who were just AMAZING. Sometimes the fortunes of a multi-billion dollar software company can depend on two or three guys that are just BRILLIANT. An example of this is that there's a dude that did the software for the Danger Sidekick, the Palm Pre, and played a big part in the Google Android. So this ONE dude basically influenced literally billions of phones across the world. I met the guys that did the software for the original iPod, and it was a team of something like four people. (Never spent enough time with them to determine which one was 'the wizard.')


Where I'm going with this is that these guys are typically incredibly fickle, and they typicaly jump ship when a company is sold. So when people complain that Fosgate ain't what it used to be, or Alphasonik ain't, I think a lot of that has to do with the 'brain drain' of engineers that occurs when the company is sold/bought/merged. The smartest guys in the room are the first to leave.

I really think this applies to nearly every engineering company by the way.  It's the reason that Microsoft lost it's mojo in the 90s. It's the reason that Apple computer is a shell of it's former self since Jobs died.

There are some occasional exceptions to the rule. For instance, I think the reason that Harman has consistently produced incredible products is that they've done an incredible job retaining people for a looooooong time. Some of Harman's engineers have been doing work for them in one facet or another for 20 or 30 years.

You can also follow these guys, and see how everything they do is magic. For instance, there's a comic book writer named 'Frank Miller' who's worked for half a dozen different places, and he's hit home runs at every one of them. (I think that artists and engineers have a lot in common. I'm an art school dropout, and a lot of engineers that I meet have degrees in fields like english and music.)


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## Hi-FiDelity

Patrick Bateman said:


> Where I'm going with this is that these guys are typically incredibly fickle, and they typicaly jump ship when a company is sold. So when people complain that Fosgate ain't what it used to be, or Alphasonik ain't, I think a lot of that has to do with the 'brain drain' of engineers that occurs when the company is sold/bought/merged. The smartest guys in the room are the first to leave.




Very true but most companies become the owners of property designed by there employees. So even if said Wizard left Alphasonik/Fosgate/whatever the company still has the plans and designs. They can continue to make a good product using those designs and maybe refine and tweak them or they can sell them for some quick cash and just slap together a product. It all matters who the owners are and what they want the company to do. This is where the who perception V reality comes into play and I think it seams to be a popular perception that once a company changes hands it instantly becomes crap. 




Patrick Bateman said:


> I really think this applies to nearly every engineering company by the way. It's the reason that Microsoft lost it's mojo in the 90s. It's the reason that Apple computer is a shell of it's former self since Jobs died.


I'd say they've been a shell since Woz left, I mean he was the real brains behind the tech. I don't remember reading about how jobs spent all night in his parents garage soldering IC's, Transistors, Capacitors, ect onto a PCB to make the first APPLE I's. Though you do have a point, if the power in charge change (be they in R&D or even management to an extent) it can cause major problems. 



Patrick Bateman said:


> There are some occasional exceptions to the rule. For instance, I think the reason that Harman has consistently produced incredible products is that they've done an incredible job retaining people for a looooooong time. Some of Harman's engineers have been doing work for them in one facet or another for 20 or 30 years.[/font]


Personally I think that speaks more about how the treat there employees . People like to feel valuable and if you can do that you get low turn over rates.


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## [email protected]

Sometimes looking at it as I do from an engineering perspective will miss the retailing and marketing nuances. I'm aware that some companies move different product lines through different channels, or use separate branding of otherwise identical product to do this.

I'm curious to know why people feel Rockford quality has taken a dive, it's not what I see when repairing their products that have come my way. 

Amps like the T series make way over rated power and are really nicely designed and built, as an example a T2500-1 I repaired recently made around 3300 watts (at 1% THD, 100Hz) which I'd consider to be nicely under rated. 

Haven't worked on the cigarette packet sized things, but everything else I've seen has the same build quality as the older product.


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## subwoofery

[email protected] said:


> Sometimes looking at it as I do from an engineering perspective will miss the retailing and marketing nuances. I'm aware that some companies move different product lines through different channels, or use separate branding of otherwise identical product to do this.
> 
> I'm curious to know why people feel Rockford quality has taken a dive, it's not what I see when repairing their products that have come my way.
> 
> Amps like the T series make way over rated power and are really nicely designed and built, as an example a T2500-1 I repaired recently made around 3300 watts (at 1% THD, 100Hz) which I'd consider to be nicely under rated.
> 
> Haven't worked on the cigarette packet sized things, but everything else I've seen has the same build quality as the older product.


Great to have you back Gordon... 

We need more technical people around here 

Kelvin


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## Defaalarm

It has probably been said a couple of times already, but my problem is those who jump on the new thing. 

A couple of years ago it was Hertz that was the thing, now it seems to be Mosconi. 

I have nothing against these products, and I have actually tried Hertz and sort of liked the Mille speakers, though they were not to my taste. 

What I have an issue with is the people who only gives, for Example, Mosconi as an option when someone asks what to buy, and then there are 10 posts of people that just answer: yes, its a good buy, go with Mosconi, etc. (this happens a lot on a norwegian forum I frequent) The few times I bother to give an recomendation, I always try to give multiple options, and why I liked them. Instead of just saying, DLS, 'nough said.

(If the post is incoherent, it is because I do not use English as my first language, and it all sound better when your rant on your first language.)


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## BuickGN

Defaalarm said:


> It has probably been said a couple of times already, but my problem is those who jump on the new thing.
> 
> A couple of years ago it was Hertz that was the thing, now it seems to be Mosconi.
> 
> I have nothing against these products, and I have actually tried Hertz and sort of liked the Mille speakers, though they were not to my taste.
> 
> What I have an issue with is the people who only gives, for Example, Mosconi as an option when someone asks what to buy, and then there are 10 posts of people that just answer: yes, its a good buy, go with Mosconi, etc. (this happens a lot on a norwegian forum I frequent) The few times I bother to give an recomendation, I always try to give multiple options, and why I liked them. Instead of just saying, DLS, 'nough said.
> 
> (If the post is incoherent, it is because I do not use English as my first language, and it all sound better when your rant on your first language.)


Your English is better than most who speak only English. It seems like many people educated abroad with English being their second language have better grammar skills than the average American. 

Back on topic, I agree with you. I don't know how many times I see on this board and on some of the automotive forums I visit, people just throw out a product name with no reason. It's more like a popularity contest instead of recommending the best product for a particular install. Even if I'm not well educated on the subject I still try to explain my thought process, how I got there so others will know that either I know what I'm talking about or I'm wrong, probably wrong more often than not.


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## Defaalarm

BuickGN said:


> Your English is better than most who speak only English. It seems like many people educated abroad with English being their second language have better grammar skills than the average American.
> 
> Back on topic, I agree with you. I don't know how many times I see on this board and on some of the automotive forums I visit, people just throw out a product name with no reason. It's more like a popularity contest instead of recommending the best product for a particular install. Even if I'm not well educated on the subject I still try to explain my thought process, how I got there so others will know that either I know what I'm talking about or I'm wrong, probably wrong more often than not.


You were much better at explaining my point than me


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## adam_rostron

my 2 cents worth.

First of all, I have been guilty of being a fanboy but I have never been scared to try something new based on recommendations of other peoples experiences. For example. I was in the market to purchase some new amps and a processor to go with. I decided to go with the Mosconi processor and I spoke to a few people who used it in person and was sold, not once did I hear them tell me why it was better than another companies, just that it did what I wanted it to do. The more I played with it the more I fell in love and ultimately it drove me to purchase the Mosconi AMPS (as200.4 and as200.2). So you could say I am a fanboy here. 

I didn't buy these off the wing of they were "better than focal FPS amps or better than audison voce series amps" I bought them because they fitted my requirements, aesthetically are very pleasing to the eye and I had a good experience with the brand.

Working in an Industry that sells primarily large companies, Alpine, Pioneer, Clarion, Kenwood and Kicker, most of our customers come in looking for gear and nothing frustrates me more than someone who says "My mate, has such and such brand and it's **** and I don't want it". I almost want to reef these people by the collar of their shirt out of the front door. 

I have no problem with people coming in and wanting a brand specific solution but when they come in bagging out other brands before they've even considered the options really frustrates me. 

I personally will try and sell them a solution to fit their needs and is within their budget. For example I offer a package to people with limited space (utes, small hatches, etc) a pioneer DEHX4650BT unit, Focal FPS-165F speakers, Alpine MRX-F65(Before it was discontinued) and either an alpine 8" type r sub in the box or the kicker comp r slimline sub. This system was $1399 or $1599 installed. The questions I get asked are, "why is it all different brands?" "do I need to keep the brands the same?" ... I simply explain to them that no, it doesn't have to match and I feel each of the items I have selected are the best for your needs that suits your budget.. I've installed probably 8-9 of these setups and the customers have all been over the moon with them. 

tldr; there isn't really anything wrong with wanting to match brands or wanting a specific brand, but 9 times out of 10 there is a product more suited to your needs if you don't mind missmatching brands. Brand bashing is not acceptable tool to use as a sales technique.


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## Nismo

I'm no salesman, and have never been employed in this industry. I've been in audio for 20 years now (and I'm 32 now).

I do product bash those products that will not hold up (Pyle, Pyramid, et al), and those that claim power ratings based on WLS (when lightning strikes).

I do try and dissuade people from these pieces of equipment, but I bash products MORE based on how the company services customers. This is not something that is subjective.

I also try to find products that are either brand new and from those I've known directly (I've known a lot of start-up guys from my forum time), BEFORE they become a forum boner. I also like finding the 'old school' gems that are forgotten.

Just because something is mainstream doesn't make it bad, but it doesn't make it necessarily good either.

Solid performance (rated vs. measured and reliability), good service, and reasonable prices are all I expect if I'm going to leave a product alone...because my experience in most cases has shown that you get what you pay for, and there are few exceptions.

I've found that I cannot tell a difference in amps given a similar power level...so as far as I'm concerned you can't go too far wrong with the mid-level gear and up.

Eric


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