# wiring one speaker out of phase



## antikryst (Feb 26, 2011)

been reading about wiring one speaker out of phase to make it in phase when the sound gets to your ears.

i believe the installer wired it physically right (+ to +, - to -) and im planning to see how it would change if i wire one out of phase.

what changes should i look for to know which setting is better? say everything is set to flat on the HU. balance flat. fader, all to the front isolating just the front speakers, and no sub (i dont have one yet).

im new to car audio so some objective tell tale signs on what it should sound like would be helpful.... in phase, vs out of phase... acoustically speaking (not physical wiring).

did i use the right terms? lol.


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## b&camp (Jan 27, 2011)

What you're looking for is a solid, defined center image. Out of phase will sound "diffuse and difficult to locate." 

btw, I wouldn't call this a dumb question. Better than sub fights.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isn't phase only needed if you have speakers in different places from each other, but really far apart?

Care to elaborate on where exactly the speakers will be placed?


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## antikryst (Feb 26, 2011)

i have the IASCA cd where theres a track for checking phase. its a voice track with a female saying "my voice is in phase now" and "my voice is out of phase now". i can tell the difference and how unnatural the "out of phase" voice is using headphones. 

would the difference be this drastic if i rewire the phase of one of my speakers? i just wanna ask this now since its going to be my first time doing this... its gonna take a bit of effort since i need to take out the seat to get access to the amps wiring. then i also plan to buy torx screwdrivers so i can open up my door and see how its physically wired.

my speakers are in the stock locations now. woofers are a bit low on the door a bit forward, then tweeters are a bit high on the door, in the middle, which makes it closer to the ear. maybe a foot and a half apart (estimated). 

upping my question... how centered should it sound when its acoustically in phase vs acoustically out of phase? with everything set flat, without any form of time alignment... how centered should the image be? i know what i centered image should sound like on home audio with just a 2.1 setup... so im curious on how centered it can really sound with just a pair of speakers inside a car with them being on the sides vs up front on a good 2 speaker home setup where the listener is actually in the sweet spot.

i also just have the built in stock head unit (ford fiesta hatch) with a lot of things integrated so im keeping that one for now. it also has an "optimize driver" setting that, when turned on, really centers the image. im gussing this is time alignment because i turned it on... sat on the passenger side, and the image was all to the right side (left hand drive car). with it on, while seated on the drivers side, image is centered.... a LOT more centered with it on vs off (time alignment?).

im asking about phase since im curious if i can get a better centered image without using what i think is time alignment (optimize driver)... so the passenger wont get sound thats seemingly coming from one side only.


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## antikryst (Feb 26, 2011)

ok... using the IASCA cd for testing phase here are my results:

in phase track: 
without TA: it says voice should be centered... i dont hear it centered but more towards the left as that speaker is nearest me. can you really get a more centered stage by just adjusting the phase? 

with TA: voice indeed gets centered

out of phase track:

without TA: says it shouldnt be coherent and diffused. not sure about this one.. almost the same as the in phase track. says should be hard to locate. check. 

with TA: says that sound should be hard to locate. check. says sound should be diffused. check.

any thoughts what my actual acoustical phase is now? am i in phase or out of phase? confused.


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

what i've learned about phase is that it's more then just the speaker wiring that makes it "in/out" of phase. xover slopes and the way the soundwaves couple with the car makes alot of difference


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## antikryst (Feb 26, 2011)

Horsemanwill said:


> what i've learned about phase is that it's more then just the speaker wiring that makes it "in/out" of phase. xover slopes and the way the soundwaves couple with the car makes alot of difference


thats pretty much my question. how do i get to configure my speakers to be acoustically in phase in my car, on my specific install? my ears are not trained for this... so i just posted my observations from playing the IASCA in phase/out of phase test track.

cross over slopes have an effect on this? running my fronts full pass for now, using the passive crossovers of the focal v30 set.

basically i want to get the best soundstage possible by just playing with phase first... given that the stock speaker locations were used... with the HU not having tuning capabilities apart from the stock time alignment preset (which may or may not work right, my ears are not trained well enough to tell if it works right... but maybe it does since its the HU that came with the car)


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## Moon Track (Mar 10, 2011)

It’s like I have another release of the IASCA and there was a mail voice.
There should be separate tracks for mid-woofers and twitters. Sometimes the mid can be in phase and twitter not, or in reverse order. The crossover slope will affect on the phase balance if you use different settings for left and right channel. In this way, with phase shifted on 90deg, it will be hard to determine a difference between on phase and out of phase tracks.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

antikryst said:


> i have the IASCA cd where theres a track for checking phase. its a voice track with a female saying "my voice is in phase now" and "my voice is out of phase now". i can tell the difference and how unnatural the "out of phase" voice is using headphones.
> 
> would the difference be this drastic if i rewire the phase of one of my speakers? i just wanna ask this now since its going to be my first time doing this... its gonna take a bit of effort since i need to take out the seat to get access to the amps wiring. then i also plan to buy torx screwdrivers so i can open up my door and see how its physically wired.
> 
> ...


Good read and good info Where exactly should center located 

From your test with the IASCA cd, it seems like you can benefit from wiring 1 side out of phase (try the driver's side) - putting both mids in phase in the midrange frequencies. Hearing phase above 5kHz is really difficult. You'll have to play with your tweeters polarity in order to know if you have both in phase. What I like to do is try to determine if my tweeter is in phase relative to its mid. 

Kelvin


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## antikryst (Feb 26, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> Good read and good info Where exactly should center located
> 
> From your test with the IASCA cd, it seems like you can benefit from wiring 1 side out of phase (try the driver's side) - putting both mids in phase in the midrange frequencies. Hearing phase above 5kHz is really difficult. You'll have to play with your tweeters polarity in order to know if you have both in phase. What I like to do is try to determine if my tweeter is in phase relative to its mid.
> 
> Kelvin


ok. so i was able to get a copy of that IASCA disc with the male voice. still couldnt figure out if i got the phase right. time to play with my wiring soon then.

with my stock HU's TA (which i assume works since it was made specifically for the car.. plus it gets the vocals centered when i turn it on)... passenger is screwed but the driver benefits from the sound being centered. if it does any worse apart from centering... im not quite sure.

so you can get a pretty centered sound stage with just phasing and no TA? or is there still a compromise for having a centered sound stage for BOTH front passengers?

thanks for the link... more reading for me.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

antikryst said:


> ok... using the IASCA cd for testing phase here are my results:
> 
> in phase track:
> without TA: it says voice should be centered... i dont hear it centered but more towards the left as that speaker is nearest me. can you really get a more centered stage by just adjusting the phase?
> ...


If I read your test results I'd say leave the speakers wired up + to + and - to -.
Your Head Unit T/A will adjust the phase and if you would change one speaker out of phase that T/A setting wouldn't work as expected.
Both of the "with TA" results posted above seem spot on. In that case you can't win any more by wiring one side out of phase.
Just use the T/A on the HU and adjust the fader to have the volume levels left/right balanced as well. It should provide you with a nice centered image. Just play a mono pink noise track and center it where the TA puts the center voice.

Where did the centered voice come from? If I use the auto tune fron my Pioneer HU i get an image right in front of me. I can simulate that without TA by wiring the near side speakers out of phase. After experimenting with all kind of settings I prefer an image centered between the right in front and center of dash. Like when you look at the front bonnet in the middle of the car. But with one pre set TA you wouldn't have that choise.

You could try the speakers wired in phase and TA on the HU engaged compared to TA setting off and the near side wired out of phase?


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## antikryst (Feb 26, 2011)

Wesayso said:


> If I read your test results I'd say leave the speakers wired up + to + and - to -.
> Your Head Unit T/A will adjust the phase and if you would change one speaker out of phase that T/A setting wouldn't work as expected.
> Both of the "with TA" results posted above seem spot on. In that case you can't win any more by wiring one side out of phase.
> Just use the T/A on the HU and adjust the fader to have the volume levels left/right balanced as well. It should provide you with a nice centered image. Just play a mono pink noise track and center it where the TA puts the center voice.
> ...


im asking these questions since i actually want to avoid the TA setting of my HU if i can as i dont have any control over it. the HU is stock and built in and not easily user replaceble... but it does have TA or what seems like TA. i also dont have auto tune... but i did use the stock speaker locations of the car.

voice is on the middle of the dash with it on. dead center from what my untrained ears tell me. ill try wiring one speaker out of phase and see where that takes me. hopefully in the next couple of weeks i can take the time to take out my seat and open my doors up. amp is under the seat and its hard to access the controls or wiring without taking the seat out.

really no budget for a processor yet. but i want be able to make the best of what i have now... and learn a lot in the process. still dont have a sub even... so im asking all these questions as i think my HU's built in TA will not work at all when i add a sub since the car didnt come with one lol.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

I guess the reason it works is because of those stock locations. I wouldn't write it off just yet . No harm in trying to get better results yourself though. But there's only so much you can do with wiring out of phase. Check out the threads:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/33740-simple-way-tune-courtesy-cmusic.html
and
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-truth-myths-industry-dogma/104273-you-can-achieve-proper-imaging-without-use-digital-processing.html
The first post on that last thread has a link to wiring the speakers on one side in series but it would require front and back speakers I guess. But it migh be another way to play with phase?


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## antikryst (Feb 26, 2011)

Wesayso said:


> I guess the reason it works is because of those stock locations. I wouldn't write it off just yet . No harm in trying to get better results yourself though. But there's only so much you can do with wiring out of phase. Check out the threads:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/33740-simple-way-tune-courtesy-cmusic.html
> and
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-truth-myths-industry-dogma/104273-you-can-achieve-proper-imaging-without-use-digital-processing.html
> The first post on that last thread has a link to wiring the speakers on one side in series but it would require front and back speakers I guess. But it migh be another way to play with phase?


been reading the cmusic link over and over... and thats one of the reasons why i made this thread lol.

the other one... $20 for the diagram? any clue what that says?

ok... so more results for me. with that comes more questions. 

listened to the IASCA setup cd again just now on my home from work. looks like my setup becomes acoustically in phase with the preset TA. at least with the 200hz-2khz "my voice is in phase/out of phase track" with the male voice. couldnt really say how it is with the 2khz-20khz track. then theres the 20hz-20khz clicking polarity check track. that sounds centered as well with TA. anything that should be centered with TA off... is.. well way off to the left.

then theres the spectral balance part of the disc... playing that... its pretty centered... then slowly drifts to the right when the frequency goes up.

then on the other IASCA disc... theres a track with 7 drums that should sound equally apart. its pretty equal to me with TA on.

so pretty much TA delays the speaker nearest you to make the music arrive to your ears at the same time like how it should on a stereo setup?

By delaying the sound of the speaker nearest you... it makes you perceive it as acoustically in phase? is this right or am i mixing it up?

by reversing the absolute phase of your wiring on 1 speaker... it can act like TA and help center your image? are there other ways of adjusting phase? digital processing? can this be done non-digitally? switching wires just flips it 180 right? 

wow thats a lot of questions. learning a lot though. for those who dont know... im just about 8 weeks into car audio haha.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

antikryst said:


> been reading the cmusic link over and over... and thats one of the reasons why i made this thread lol.
> 
> the other one... $20 for the diagram? any clue what that says?


My guess would be they wire one side front speaker and rear speaker in series and the other side paralel. And use the fader to compensate for differences in load (ohms). It said in the article you'd lose the fader functionality with this wiring, hence my suspicion. I wouldn't buy their schematics though, I'm sure there are some wise members on here that could explain this idea. 



antikryst said:


> ok... so more results for me. with that comes more questions.
> 
> listened to the IASCA setup cd again just now on my home from work. looks like my setup becomes acoustically in phase with the preset TA. at least with the 200hz-2khz "my voice is in phase/out of phase track" with the male voice. couldnt really say how it is with the 2khz-20khz track. then theres the 20hz-20khz clicking polarity check track. that sounds centered as well with TA. anything that should be centered with TA off... is.. well way off to the left.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you got the right idea and your TA preset is working. Now try and use your left/right balance/fader to get the upper frequencies to center as well. Higher frequencies are more dependant on volume to be centered and TA does less for those shorter waves. See this thread:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/81192-sound-quality-fundamentals.html (about half way down the first post is a nice write up about human perception of sound)




antikryst said:


> by reversing the absolute phase of your wiring on 1 speaker... it can act like TA and help center your image? are there other ways of adjusting phase? digital processing? can this be done non-digitally? switching wires just flips it 180 right?
> 
> wow thats a lot of questions. learning a lot though. for those who dont know... im just about 8 weeks into car audio haha.


You're right about changing the wiring on 1 speaker. I don't know of any other method yet apart from the processors and TA Headunits. I'll let others chime in on this one....

I'm into this game for allmost one year so very much a newbee as well and have learned most by reading this forum (and other articles on the net) but also by trying different things myself. I can't count the times I removed my door panels and chairs to try something out . And that's on my daily driver so I need it to be back and functional as soon as possible. 

Maybe even more important than great imaging: how does your system sound with your favorite music? Imaging is great but tonal balance might even be more important to enjoy great tunes. I'm trying to get both and it's a long road (lol). A lot of the songs I liked before I started all this don't image as well as I would like. They can be quite boring on that part but if the tonal balance is there it should sound good anyway.

Another good thread is this one:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/65061-improve-your-soundstage-%242.html

I'm not suggesting you should stick your tweeters in a ball shape but it might give you some ideas to look at your current setup and reduce diffraction.
It is working for me, but I had to choose my own places to mount my tweeters as there weren't any OEM locations to use.
Just look at it this way: Anything you can do to lessen diffractions or early reflections will help your setup. Got any pictures of your ride?


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## antikryst (Feb 26, 2011)

Wesayso said:


> Got any pictures of your ride?


thanks for the inputs. nope no pictures. will try to take some tomorrow.

cant change the grills of the stock locations though without a lot of modding. maybe thats what ill change last.

in general... im really happy with how my system ended up now. i got the clarity and detail i wanted in speakers already. but the more i read here... the more i want to improve on it. now its onto getting the stage and imaging right. the best it can be with what i have, and learning in the process... given the limitations of using the stock locations and no processing.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

A lot is possible these days, I used 3D printing for my tweeter mount:


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