# Sound Deadener Showdown has closed its doors



## Chris12

I’ve been trying to get ahold for of Don from SDS to no avail and noticed today that his website was “down for maintenance”.

Well Don finally emailed me back:

*“Chris,

I've retired and SDS will not be selling any more materials. Sorry. I'll refund your payment.”*


Looks like the provider of the best CLD tiles out there has gone out of business.


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## ToNasty

I lust put an order in on Saturday. Damnit


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## Serieus

Interesting...I placed an order last week and received it Friday. Wish I would've ordered more.


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## bassace

Man, I wish he gave a heads up of a few months. I wonder what happened?


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## Chris12

I asked him who the manufacturer of his CLD is, but he hasn't responded. 

I wonder if he'll tell us so we still have access to it. For those that don't know, its been tested to show that it's the best CLD (formerly?) available.


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## DavidRam

That sucks... Another victim to the decline of our beloved hobby, imho.


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## ToNasty

I sure hope he sent out my order before he closed up

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Truthunter

:surprised: 

SDS was a special resource for us DIYers. Thank you Don for all the great info, service and product over the years!

Glad I still have like 2 boxes of CLD left to do the rest of my car when I get around to it.


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## Chris12

Truthunter said:


> :surprised:
> 
> SDS was a special resource for us DIYers. Thank you Don for all the great info, service and product over the years!
> 
> Glad I still have like 2 boxes of CLD left to do the rest of my car when I get around to it.


Seriously. Just the SDS website itself had a huge amount of information. I'm just realizing now that I'd been referencing it (the website) as I move around the car to see how much of each material he recommended.


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## leepersc

Wow. I'm very shocked by this to be honest. I'm certain there's got to be more going on than we would be privy to. 

Don, good luck to you. You've been an invaluable resource, knowledge base and provider to this community and to the audio world as a whole. Thank you and good luck in your future endeavors. What you've provided to this hobby will be definitely missed.


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## bmiller1

That sucks. Don is awesome.


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## naiku

Truthunter said:


> SDS was a special resource for us DIYers. Thank you Don for all the great info, service and product over the years!


100% agree, I only bought a couple things over the years, but Don was always great to deal with and the website had a great amount of info.


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## SkizeR

Yeah, found this out on saturday. He sent me an email right after he shipped my order. Been trying to get ahold of him to possibly purchase the brand from him and keep it going, but havent had any luck reaching him.


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## Jscoyne2

For future reference to the site. I give you. The site as of Feb 1st, 2019

https://web.archive.org/web/20190129013346/https://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/

As for materials.

Cld: Was rated 2nd or 3rd on the CLD test.

Kno Knoise - Kolossus Edition Sound Deadener

MLV: You can find other sizes and lengths on ebay as well.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Soundsulat...5-100-sf-roll-Soundproofing-MLV-/121596772331

Hydrophobic Melamine Foam: Known as Mega'Zorbe. Amazon has different choices of sizes.

https://www.amazon.com/MegaZorbe-Hydrophobic-Melamine-Foam-Stick/dp/B01N2497HN

Closed Cell Foam: Bought this stuff, its 90% the same stuff.

https://www.foambymail.com/NE-HQ/neoprene-high-quality-foam-sheets.html

Everything else can be found at a local hardware store.


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## rton20s

I heard about this from Skizer the other day, just after he got the news. Whether Nick or someone else purchases the brand, I do hope someone will continue to carry the torch. So, long as that someone is looking to keep the high quality and reasonable pricing on the product. Even if it is just the CLD. 

As far as the testing that Jscoyne2 mentioned, Knu Kolossus probably ISN'T your best alternative to SDS. And this is from someone who has it all over his car and provided the product for TooStubborn2Fail's testing. Chris (TS2F) has said himself, that if he couldn't get SDS Tiles from Don, he would likely go to Dynamat based on his test results.


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## Stycker

I have used products from this site for my last two builds. Very easy to use and works great.
RAAMaudio - Automotive sound deadening products


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## Jscoyne2

rton20s said:


> I heard about this from Skizer the other day, just after he got the news. Whether Nick or someone else purchases the brand, I do hope someone will continue to carry the torch. So, long as that someone is looking to keep the high quality and reasonable pricing on the product. Even if it is just the CLD.
> 
> As far as the testing that Jscoyne2 mentioned, Knu Kolossus probably ISN'T your best alternative to SDS. And this is from someone who has it all over his car and provided the product for TooStubborn2Fail's testing. Chris (TS2F) has said himself, that if he couldn't get SDS Tiles from Don, he would likely go to Dynamat based on his test results.


Run it in my cars. Had no complaints.


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## Bayboy

rton20s said:


> I heard about this from Skizer the other day, just after he got the news. Whether Nick or someone else purchases the brand, I do hope someone will continue to carry the torch. So, long as that someone is looking to keep the high quality and reasonable pricing on the product. Even if it is just the CLD.
> 
> As far as the testing that Jscoyne2 mentioned, Knu Kolossus probably ISN'T your best alternative to SDS. And this is from someone who has it all over his car and provided the product for TooStubborn2Fail's testing. Chris (TS2F) has said himself, that if he couldn't get SDS Tiles from Don, he would likely go to Dynamat based on his test results.


Which Dynamat? They have several, no? I did use a door pack of Xtreme though it seemed to be rather thin for a CLD. The Kolossus didn't seem too bad, but if there's better....

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## ManBearPig

Dang, now where do I get CLD from?


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## Jscoyne2

1 - KnuKonceptz Kolossus - $5.42-$4 per square foot, for normal amounts. 
2 - SDS CLD Tiles - $6.36-$5.40 per square foot, for normal amounts.
3 - Silent Coat 4mm - $5.47 per square foot*

I've listed Silent Coat as third, because they only seem to have one price point at this time, and in order to do a whole car, their price point is higher than SDS. Buying 16.6 square feet of SDS gets you to $5.40 per square foot, where 15.36 square feet of Silent Coat is $5.47. Anything over that is still $5.47.

The pro's of SDS is direct customer service from the owner and original CLD tester, along with a killer no frills website that is the only sound deadening website that I have found from any company not to have at least one lie, stretch of the truth, or statement of ignorance, along with the best overall product when considering the requirements of a CLD designed for car use. It's also the lightest of the top 3 products, by at least 25%. The only con I can come up with is price, but as far as I'm personally concerned the price is justified. As said earlier, this is what I'll personally be using. (Previously, I would have listed difficulty in ordering as a con as well, as some people had reported issues, but, now that SDS has a fully working cart system implemented, that is a non issue anymore) 

The pro's of Silent Coat 4mm are slightly better damping (and by slight I mean right at the edge of this test's tolerance). The cons are again, price, as well as a lower heat tolerance level, highest weight of the top 3, and a weak constraining layer. Some might remember, that Silent Coat is the product I had issues with using the stamper to cut out, as the stress caused the constraining layer to tear on the edges. This is the only product I've had do this. I would not use this in an area where heavy rubbing or sliding might take place.

The pro for Kolossus is price. Its the lowest priced, high performing product, performing just under SDS in damping (performing below SDS by right at the tolerances of the testing). The cons, well, slightly less damping performance, a flammable plastic coating on the aluminum the second highest weight of the top 3, and significantly less heat stability. I don't think the product performs low enough in heat testing to fall off, but I do think SDS would perform measurably better in summer conditions. Likewise, I don't think the flammable coating is going to cause an issue (its also not the only product that has this), but it does need to be mentioned.






If you are building a car that needs to be light weight, but still want a damping material, Dynamat Xtreme is the only way to go. It is the lightest weight to performance material out there, period. It performs, in my tests, as well as Damplifier Pro, and almost as well as STP Silver, which are both heavier. It also performs significantly better than Raamat BXT2, the other lightweight product.


I would stay away from anything from GTMat. None of their products had the combined performance and heat resistance to convince me to use them in any way shape or form in a vehicle.

Peel N Seal is an obvious no, as is Fatmat.

Alphadamp is discontinued (and performed just under Damplifier Pro) and Murdermat has discontinued their best product, and has supply issues.

I would not personally use Silent Coat 2mm or 5mm, the first due to the performance, the second due to smell and heat resistance.

I would not use Raamat BXT2, Memphis Mojo Mat, KnuKonceptz KnoKnoise Resonance Control, Stinger Roadkill Expert, or STP-Atlantic Vizomat due to low performance.

I would not use STP-Atlantic Bomb due to poor heat resistance. 

I would not personally use Second Skin Audio's Damplifier Pro. The product itself has nothing wrong with it, its just that there are better products out there based on my testing for the same cost. It performs around the same level as Dynamat Xtreme in my testing, and holds up to heat fine.


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## ToNasty

I would not personally use Second Skin Audio's Damplifier Pro. The product itself has nothing wrong with it, its just that there are better products out there based on my testing for the same cost. It performs around the same level as Dynamat Xtreme in my testing, and holds up to heat fine.[/QUOTE]

I use second skin but i buy the b stock works great for me and they always have some


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## Flash69

Not good news. I need to order Velcro. Anyone know what Velcro he was selling?


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## ToNasty

Flash69 said:


> Not good news. I need to order Velcro. Anyone know what Velcro he was selling?


I ordered some from sds Saturday. Not sure if it will come or not but i ordered extra if it shows i can send you some

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Jscoyne2

Flash69 said:


> Not good news. I need to order Velcro. Anyone know what Velcro he was selling?


https://www.amazon.com/VELCRO-Brand-Industrial-Strength-Superior/dp/B00006IC2T

at home depot/lowes/hardware store as well.


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## Weigel21

This really sucks, I was going to be in the market for a new(er) car this year and was planning on doing a proper audio build. Guess I'll just have to go with some of the other products that performed fairly well.


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## SkizeR

Jscoyne2 said:


> https://www.amazon.com/VELCRO-Brand-Industrial-Strength-Superior/dp/B00006IC2T
> 
> 
> 
> at home depot/lowes/hardware store as well.


This is not even close to the velcro he sells. I cant for the life of me find it anywhere besides his store. 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## ToNasty

SkizeR said:


> Jscoyne2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/VELCRO-Brand-Industrial-Strength-Superior/dp/B00006IC2T
> 
> 
> 
> at home depot/lowes/hardware store as well.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not even close to the velcro he sells. I cant for the life of me find it anywhere besides his store.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Well when you find it tell me becsuse i need some ?


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## Chris12

Jscoyne2 said:


> 1 - KnuKonceptz Kolossus - $5.42-$4 per square foot, for normal amounts.
> 2 - SDS CLD Tiles - $6.36-$5.40 per square foot, for normal amounts.
> 3 - Silent Coat 4mm - $5.47 per square foot*
> 
> I've listed Silent Coat as third, because they only seem to have one price point at this time, and in order to do a whole car, their price point is higher than SDS. Buying 16.6 square feet of SDS gets you to $5.40 per square foot, where 15.36 square feet of Silent Coat is $5.47. Anything over that is still $5.47.
> 
> The pro's of SDS is direct customer service from the owner and original CLD tester, along with a killer no frills website that is the only sound deadening website that I have found from any company not to have at least one lie, stretch of the truth, or statement of ignorance, along with the best overall product when considering the requirements of a CLD designed for car use. It's also the lightest of the top 3 products, by at least 25%. The only con I can come up with is price, but as far as I'm personally concerned the price is justified. As said earlier, this is what I'll personally be using. (Previously, I would have listed difficulty in ordering as a con as well, as some people had reported issues, but, now that SDS has a fully working cart system implemented, that is a non issue anymore)
> 
> The pro's of Silent Coat 4mm are slightly better damping (and by slight I mean right at the edge of this test's tolerance). The cons are again, price, as well as a lower heat tolerance level, highest weight of the top 3, and a weak constraining layer. Some might remember, that Silent Coat is the product I had issues with using the stamper to cut out, as the stress caused the constraining layer to tear on the edges. This is the only product I've had do this. I would not use this in an area where heavy rubbing or sliding might take place.
> 
> The pro for Kolossus is price. Its the lowest priced, high performing product, performing just under SDS in damping (performing below SDS by right at the tolerances of the testing). The cons, well, slightly less damping performance, a flammable plastic coating on the aluminum the second highest weight of the top 3, and significantly less heat stability. I don't think the product performs low enough in heat testing to fall off, but I do think SDS would perform measurably better in summer conditions. Likewise, I don't think the flammable coating is going to cause an issue (its also not the only product that has this), but it does need to be mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are building a car that needs to be light weight, but still want a damping material, Dynamat Xtreme is the only way to go. It is the lightest weight to performance material out there, period. It performs, in my tests, as well as Damplifier Pro, and almost as well as STP Silver, which are both heavier. It also performs significantly better than Raamat BXT2, the other lightweight product.
> 
> 
> I would stay away from anything from GTMat. None of their products had the combined performance and heat resistance to convince me to use them in any way shape or form in a vehicle.
> 
> Peel N Seal is an obvious no, as is Fatmat.
> 
> Alphadamp is discontinued (and performed just under Damplifier Pro) and Murdermat has discontinued their best product, and has supply issues.
> 
> I would not personally use Silent Coat 2mm or 5mm, the first due to the performance, the second due to smell and heat resistance.
> 
> I would not use Raamat BXT2, Memphis Mojo Mat, KnuKonceptz KnoKnoise Resonance Control, Stinger Roadkill Expert, or STP-Atlantic Vizomat due to low performance.
> 
> I would not use STP-Atlantic Bomb due to poor heat resistance.
> 
> I would not personally use Second Skin Audio's Damplifier Pro. The product itself has nothing wrong with it, its just that there are better products out there based on my testing for the same cost. It performs around the same level as Dynamat Xtreme in my testing, and holds up to heat fine.



If you boil this all down it seems that he would use SDS or Dynamat, right?


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## rton20s

Chris12 said:


> If you boil this all down it seems that he would use SDS or Dynamat, right?


Correct. I've already talked to Chris. Now that SDS is gone, his exact words were, "I guess dynamat all the things after I run out of cld tiles." The Dynamat Xtreme had one of the highest performance:weight ratios of any of the products he tested. I believe it also did well in heat testing. 

Now, of his old Top 3, Knu Kolossus is still the top performer left. However, it did not perform nearly as well in his heat tests. I also had one piece (out of an entire car) fail on me due to heat. I still have several sheets left and will likely use all of those up before I move on to any other CLD.


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## Jscoyne2

SkizeR said:


> This is not even close to the velcro he sells. I cant for the life of me find it anywhere besides his store.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


You have to click the coin, strip, tape symbols. That link just takes you to the strip page.

Unless you mean something else.


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## SkizeR

Jscoyne2 said:


> You have to click the coin, strip, tape symbols. That link just takes you to the strip page.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you mean something else.


I mean something else. Nothing i have found (including that exact link you sent that I have tried before) sticks and holds like the stuff don sells. 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## Chris12

rton20s said:


> Correct. I've already talked to Chris. Now that SDS is gone, his exact words were, "I guess dynamat all the things after I run out of cld tiles." The Dynamat Xtreme had one of the highest performance:weight ratios of any of the products he tested. I believe it also did well in heat testing.
> 
> Now, of his old Top 3, Knu Kolossus is still the top performer left. However, it did not perform nearly as well in his heat tests. I also had one piece (out of an entire car) fail on me due to heat. I still have several sheets left and will likely use all of those up before I move on to any other CLD.


Thanks for posting this.

I had been using dynamat, but I was going to try the KNU stuff as I didn't realize that it had heat issues.

I just canceled my order for the KNU on amazon, I'll just stick with dynamat.


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## bmiller1

SkizeR said:


> I mean something else. Nothing i have found (including that exact link you sent that I have tried before) sticks and holds like the stuff don sells.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


Totally agree. I just got some last month to hang MLV in my doors. That velcro is frustratingly strong.


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## rton20s

Jscoyne2 said:


> You have to click the coin, strip, tape symbols. That link just takes you to the strip page.
> 
> Unless you mean something else.





SkizeR said:


> I mean something else. Nothing i have found (including that exact link you sent that I have tried before) sticks and holds like the stuff don sells.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


I think Don was probably using something else. Direct quote from the Velcro site on their 90199 2"x4" Industrial Strength Heavy Duty Stick On Strips. 

"Note: Recommended for temperatures between 0°F to 150°F. Not recommended for fabrics, dashboards, flexible vinyl or underwater use. Continued exposure to full sunlight can damage fastener. May not adhere well to certain types of brick – testing is recommended."

It may well be that he ordered large rolls of 2" wide Hook 88 and Loop 1000 from their Professional line and cut it to 4" lengths. That product is recommended for use with vinyl and rated for use between -30°F to 140°F.


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## Mad Scientist

SkizeR said:


> This is not even close to the velcro he sells. I cant for the life of me find it anywhere besides his store.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


Nick - If you haven't already tried this, give the 3M dual lock a try. Most velco's use a felt-based type of loop, but 3M doesn't. It's a much stronger mechanical connection that any "industrial" velcro I've tried. Link below.

https://www.uline.com/BL_6418/3M-Dual-Lock


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## Mad Scientist

Also, for the most aggressive attachment, you can purchase the version that is backed with VHB tape. 

VHB tape is commonly used as a substitute to mechanical fasteners. In some cases, it actually bests mechanical fasteners. Many high-rise buildings actually used VHB tape as the bond to hold windows in place. It handles temperature extremes very well, and holds up well to moisture. 

VHB version is below. 

https://www.itapestore.com/3m-dual-..._mL0ki2J7e2wD0TudEnPDm7U4bg0v54xoCk5YQAvD_BwE


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## Blu

Damn.

Really sorry to hear this... my experience, with both Don and the Products he sold via SDS, was top notch and I would have gladly bought from him again when I needed more.

Wishing him all the best in his future endeavours.


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## JCsAudio

Ahhhh crap, I was about to order some stuff from them for two of my vehicles. Now where can I get similar quality for that price? 

Dammit!


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## Weigel21

Blu said:


> Damn.
> 
> Really sorry to hear this... my experience, with both Don and the Products he sold via SDS, was top notch and I would have gladly bought from him again when I needed more.
> 
> Wishing him all the best in his future endeavours.


Agreed, I wish him the best as well.

As with most things that were designed to work well AND last, the company and/or products eventually disappear. It's a real shame, but there's just no money in making a product that works well and lasts.


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## OGJordan

So I've not ordered any in a while, but notice a lack of SecondSkin Damplifier Pro recommendations. Has something changed? I used SDS tiles on one car and went back to the Damp Pro, just seemed like a better quality product.


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## SkizeR

OGJordan said:


> So I've not ordered any in a while, but notice a lack of SecondSkin Damplifier Pro recommendations. Has something changed? I used SDS tiles on one car and went back to the Damp Pro, just seemed like a better quality product.


how they treat potential customers was a major turn off for me and many others


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## ToNasty

SkizeR said:


> OGJordan said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I've not ordered any in a while, but notice a lack of SecondSkin Damplifier Pro recommendations. Has something changed? I used SDS tiles on one car and went back to the Damp Pro, just seemed like a better quality product.
> 
> 
> 
> how they treat potential customers was a major turn off for me and many others
Click to expand...

For second skin? Damn theyve always been awesome for me. Maybe its like me and hybrid audio. I wont use hybrid purely becsuse they were assholes on the phone to me. But a lot of other people like them


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## SkizeR

ToNasty said:


> For second skin? Damn theyve always been awesome for me. Maybe its like me and hybrid audio. I wont use hybrid purely becsuse they were assholes on the phone to me. But a lot of other people like them


go through their post history on here.


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## GreatLaBroski

NOOOOOO I was about to order CLD. DAMN


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## GreatLaBroski

SkizeR said:


> go through their post history on here.


Yep, prepare for a major oof if you read through their past posts.


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## captainbuff

Chris12 said:


> I’ve been trying to get ahold for of Don from SDS to no avail and noticed today that his website was “down for maintenance”.
> 
> Well Don finally emailed me back:
> 
> *“Chris,
> 
> I've retired and SDS will not be selling any more materials. Sorry. I'll refund your payment.”*
> 
> 
> Looks like the provider of the best CLD tiles out there has gone out of business.


I remember coming across the SDS website a decade or so ago and amidst piles of confusion, misinformation and straight up lies it was the first site that made some sense to a weekend warrior like myself. 
In my former line of work there was always a massive void (that was never filled completely) when a top manager (that really knew his thing) took off for whatever reason. 
Maybe I need my anti-pessimism pills - but sometimes it saddens me to see lot of older guys (said with respect!) with a lot of GOLD knowledge fade away and disappear.

...and take that knowledge with them.

Peace


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## GreatLaBroski

So what's everyone's take on a high-temp resistant CLD tile substitute for SDS? I have a black car and it gets 120+ degrees where I live. The panels can literally get 170F+.

Dynamat Extreme and Second Skin don't seem so hot here. They both come off extremely easily: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWBzhEUG-LI


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## JCsAudio

I wonder how cascade sound deadening products do/hold up?

SkizeR might know? I like their power supplies.


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## Pb82 Ronin

V8toilet said:


> I wonder how cascade sound deadening products do/hold up?
> 
> SkizeR might know? I like their power supplies.


I'll let you know shortly. I have two VB2 kits and two VB4 kits ready to go in. Just waiting on the rest of my gear to show so i can install in one fell swoop. 

EDIT: They tried to tell me to get a VB3 kit for the trans tunnel area, but I don't think they realized that the trans is in the rear of the car in the corvettes. So I will just use the VB4 for all the flat areas and the 2 for the doors...on top of the CLD tiles and Knu Kolossus I've already installed.


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## Chris12

GreatLaBroski said:


> So what's everyone's take on a high-temp resistant CLD tile substitute for SDS? I have a black car and it gets 120+ degrees where I live. The panels can literally get 170F+.
> 
> Dynamat Extreme and Second Skin don't seem so hot here. They both come off extremely easily:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWBzhEUG-LI


Thanks for posting that video.

I skimmed through and watched as he removed the dynamat as well as some of the others.

I’ve had to remove sections of dynamat before (in milder temperatures) and I have had it come off clean like that. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s been designed to come off clean like that, though I have no data to back that up.

Basically, I wouldn’t rule dynamat purely on its performance in that video.


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## Mad Scientist

Did anyone happen to copy and paste the content of his website text to a Word doc before the site went down? 

Don provided a lot of insight regarding theory, application, and strategy to combat vehicle noise. It would be unfortunate to lose the knowledge he has to father time.


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## customtronic

V8toilet said:


> I wonder how cascade sound deadening products do/hold up?
> 
> SkizeR might know? I like their power supplies.


FYI.....Iota build the power supplies for CAE as well as a couple of other car audio specific companies. You can find them on Ebay at a much better price than what CAE sells them for. Just my two cents.


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## nyquistrate

Sigh. I had a cart built but didn't pull the trigger. If Skizer or another obtains the company, I'm in for an order.


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## GreatLaBroski

Mad Scientist said:


> Did anyone happen to copy and paste the content of his website text to a Word doc before the site went down?
> 
> Don provided a lot of insight regarding theory, application, and strategy to combat vehicle noise. It would be unfortunate to lose the knowledge he has to father time.


https://web.archive.org/web/20190201074104/https://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/


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## ToNasty

I sent an email about my prder i placed and still havent heard back yet


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## GreatLaBroski

Chris12 said:


> I’ve had to remove sections of dynamat before (in milder temperatures) and I have had it come off clean like that. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s been designed to come off clean like that, though I have no data to back that up.
> 
> Basically, I wouldn’t rule dynamat purely on its performance in that video.


It’s possible that it goes hand in hand with high-heat resistance. But, I also remember a thread on here that showed the OP weighing 2 different boxes of Dynamat Xtreme in the middle of an install, where his new box was way thinner (lower quality).

So I’m not sure Dynamat Xtreme is still the same quality those recommending it think it actually is.


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## K-pop sucks

Damn! They had the best CLD tiles compared to the competition. 

I used there tiles in my doors. I need to finish up my car floor, should I go Dynamat Extreme or Second skin diamplifier pro?


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## Aaron Clinton

*This is very sad news. I would be highly interested in getting a group together that wants to revive it.*


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## SkizeR

V8toilet said:


> I wonder how cascade sound deadening products do/hold up?
> 
> SkizeR might know? I like their power supplies.


not bad, but i tried calling them last night. I think they dont really exist anymore either


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## GreatLaBroski

I have a feeling a vendor here would be very smart to buy up SDS’s brand / IP / sourcing information and continue to sell their products. (Ahem Nick..)

I’ve done business buyouts like this in the past and it’s very common for people to pay off the business from operating profits for 2-3 years after the acquisition without any/very little upfront expenses. If the business is losing money then it’s common to do a small, very low 5-figure buyout of the sourcing info.


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## SkizeR

GreatLaBroski said:


> (Ahem Nick..)


like i said, i'm trying but apparently a few others are also, and don doesnt seem to want to sell :/


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## GreatLaBroski

SkizeR said:


> GreatLaBroski said:
> 
> 
> 
> (Ahem Nick..)
> 
> 
> 
> like i said, i'm trying but apparently a few others are also, and don doesnt seem to want to sell :/
Click to expand...

So Don is content on just taking the business with him to the grave? That sits wrong with me. Hopefully it doesn’t work out that way.


----------



## SkizeR

GreatLaBroski said:


> So Don is content on just taking the business with him to the grave? That sits wrong with me. Hopefully it doesn’t work out that way.


idk, i have a feeling thats not the case.


----------



## GreatLaBroski

SkizeR said:


> GreatLaBroski said:
> 
> 
> 
> So Don is content on just taking the business with him to the grave? That sits wrong with me. Hopefully it doesn’t work out that way.
> 
> 
> 
> idk, i have a feeling thats not the case.
Click to expand...

I see. I think I know the game that’s being played here.


----------



## Grinder

GreatLaBroski said:


> I see. I think I know the game that’s being played here.


It's really quite simple:


Weigel21 said:


> ...there's just no money in making a product that works well and lasts.










/sarc


----------



## rton20s




----------



## GreatLaBroski

rton20s said:


>


If you have an equal quality alternative I’m all ears.


----------



## rton20s

GreatLaBroski said:


> If you have an equal quality alternative I’m all ears.


We all know, that based on objective testing, there isn't. However, when I say "we all" that makes up an extremely minute percentage of the industry. I'd love to see some legitimate data regarding market share for CLD companies. Anyone want to guess what percentage of the market SDS held? 

When you look around at the industry as a whole, CLD products tend to go in waves, just like everything else. When John Schwartz brought in Soundskins, you couldn't escape it. It was "the best deadener ever" regardless of how it actually performed. It was marketed well, and it was everywhere. This will continue, whether SDS is around or not. 

Having said all of that, I am/was a huge proponent for SDS. You can look at my post history here and on FB if you care to check. I also sincerely hope that Don passes the company (or at least his proprietary information) along to someone else who will pick up the mantle and carry on providing top level products at a reasonable price. If that doesn't happen, the DIYers will find the next best thing (Knu Kolossus? Dynamat Xtreme? SkizerMat? Frogskin?) and the industry will move on to the next hot ticket.


----------



## Mad Scientist

Has anyone tried this CLD? 

https://www.pyroteknc.com/products/decidamp/decidamp-cld/

If I understand the technical data sheet correctly, then this product has an operating temperature of -14 F thru 212 F, and the force needed to remove it from base metal is 5.39 lbs at a 180 degree angle. Assuming this data is correct, that's more than sufficient. 

Here's an excerpt from their product page:

_"Vibration is reduced by allowing the visco-elastic layer to flex, which creates shear strains between two rigid substrates, hence noise-creating energy is lost."_

Looks like their concept is not to necessarily just make the panel stiffer by using a metal backed foil with adhesive, but to make the panel more rigid _and_ absorb vibration in the process via the visco-elastic layer.


----------



## GreatLaBroski

Mad Scientist said:


> Has anyone tried this CLD?
> 
> https://www.pyroteknc.com/products/decidamp/decidamp-cld/
> 
> If I understand the technical data sheet correctly, then this product has an operating temperature of -14 F thru 212 F, and the force needed to remove it from base metal is 5.39 lbs at a 180 degree angle. Assuming this data is correct, that's more than sufficient.


I’d try it if there was a place that sells it.


----------



## GreatLaBroski

The specs look really good on that Pyroteknc Decidamp CLD though, if it comes down to it we might be able to arrange a group buy to reach the minimum order quantity to buy direct.


----------



## seafish

Mad Scientist said:


> Has anyone tried this CLD?
> 
> https://www.pyroteknc.com/products/decidamp/decidamp-cld/
> 
> Here's an excerpt from their product page:
> 
> _"Vibration is reduced by allowing the visco-elastic layer to flex, which creates shear strains between two rigid substrates, hence noise-creating energy is lost."_
> 
> Looks like their concept is not to necessarily just make the panel stiffer by using a metal backed foil with adhesive, but to make the panel more rigid _and_ absorb vibration in the process via the visco-elastic layer.


LOL!!!! ...might well be a good product, I have no clue, but that being said, by definition that is EXACTLY what a Constrained Layer Damper is SUPPOSED to do!!! ??

https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.4800606


----------



## GreatLaBroski

seafish said:


> LOL!!!! ...might well be a good product, I have no clue, but that being said, by definition that is EXACTLY what a Constrained Layer Damper is SUPPOSED to do!!! ??
> 
> https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.4800606


The interesting part isn’t that. It’s the rated operating temperature range of 0-100 c, with burst ratings of 120c. That’s really good. Plus it has little/no VOCs so it won’t smell.


----------



## preston

Its hard to understand why he would just fold up and quit without trying to sell it or at least pass it on. I'm sure he feels a sense of pride in his baby after working it all this time. Maybe he's afraid if someone else buys it they might let people down. But if he doesn't want to sell it, it would be nice to let someone know his supply chain or something. I mean I know he doesn't owe us anything, but it seems a company is like your child, you would want something to continue on after wards in the community you supported so well all these years. 

On the topic of CLD, I read recently in someone's build thread that AudioX (Steve Cook) uses a product called Vibraflex. Not sure if this is the product or not
Ampere Audio Vibraflex | 80mil/160mil Sound Dampening


----------



## rton20s

I was looking at the Pyrotek product yesterday. If you're really interested, I would try contacting the vendor linked below about an order. I have no idea what pricing looks like, or how well it actually performs. It appears that Pyrotek can provide product to your exact specification (within a given range) with a large enough Minimum Order Quantity. 

https://www.sonic-shield.com/soundproofing-products/decidamp-cld

There are also a ton of other products designed for other industries if you're willing to do the leg work. Just keep in mind that most of it has never been tested in an automotive environment, and the one thing Chris stressed multiple times after his testing that the single biggest determining factor for performance was butyl formulation. Not the weight, not thickness of the constraining layer, not the thickness of the viscoelastic layer, and not the logo on the packaging. Good luck trying to determine the performance of the product based on a technical data sheet.


----------



## Truthunter

Mad Scientist said:


> Has anyone tried this CLD?
> 
> https://www.pyroteknc.com/products/decidamp/decidamp-cld/





rton20s said:


> I was looking at the Pyrotek product yesterday. If you're really interested, I would try contacting the vendor linked below about an order.


Did anyone else click around their other products? This stuff may be the perfect solutioin for sealing off the larger holes on inner door skins:

https://www.pyroteknc.com/products/soundsteel-mpm/


----------



## SkizeR

preston said:


> On the topic of CLD, I read recently in someone's build thread that AudioX (Steve Cook) uses a product called Vibraflex. Not sure if this is the product or not
> Ampere Audio Vibraflex | 80mil/160mil Sound Dampening


ive used a small piece of it once, and also worked on a car that had it installed. Do not recommend. All of the pieces fell off and were just sitting in the bottom of the guys door.


----------



## GreatLaBroski

rton20s said:


> I was looking at the Pyrotek product yesterday. If you're really interested, I would try contacting the vendor linked below about an order. I have no idea what pricing looks like, or how well it actually performs. It appears that Pyrotek can provide product to your exact specification (within a given range) with a large enough Minimum Order Quantity.
> 
> https://www.sonic-shield.com/soundproofing-products/decidamp-cld


My google-foo isn't bad, I did see that site already. It is a "request to purchase" type of situation, which implies sales reps, which means that they're expecting high dollar / high volume orders. Not something you can just add to cart. I'll redirect you to my comment about possibly doing a group buy direct from the manufacturer if there is interest and if SDS doesn't end up changing hands to a new owner.



rton20s said:


> There are also a ton of other products designed for other industries if you're willing to do the leg work. Just keep in mind that most of it has never been tested in an automotive environment, and the one thing Chris stressed multiple times after his testing that the single biggest determining factor for performance was butyl formulation. Not the weight, not thickness of the constraining layer, not the thickness of the viscoelastic layer, and not the logo on the packaging.


If you actually read the spec sheet you'd see that it is rated for Automotive floors, firewalls, doors, ceilings, and trunk panels.



rton20s said:


> Good luck trying to determine the performance of the product based on a technical data sheet.


Actually technical data sheets are very useful when they're standards compliant. Industrial supplies are typically standards compliant. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that data sheets are not useful for determining performance, as that's actually exactly what they do. They define a performance specification based upon generally accepted testing practices (such as ANSI / ISO standards) so as a professional, you can look at different products and know where they stand.

The issue with other audio-specific CLDs is that they DON'T comply with any standardized testing nor do they put out technical spec sheets. I have yet to see a car-audio-oriented CLD manufacturer who puts out technical data sheets, have you? There's SDS's out there, but that's obviously not the same thing at all.


----------



## rton20s

GreatLaBroski said:


> My google-foo isn't bad, I did see that site already. It is a "request to purchase" type of situation, which implies sales reps, which means that they're expecting high dollar / high volume orders. Not something you can just add to cart. I'll redirect you to my comment about possibly doing a group buy direct from the manufacturer if there is interest and if SDS doesn't end up changing hands to a new owner.


With industrial products of this nature, that is the best you're likely to find. To purchase in quantities for individual use, you'll likely need to find someone who already met an MOQ and is likely relabeling or repackaging on their own. You seem to understand that. A group buy would likely be possible, but a nightmare to organize and execute. 



GreatLaBroski said:


> If you actually read the spec sheet you'd see that it is rated for Automotive floors, firewalls, doors, ceilings, and trunk panels.


I should have been more clear. I meant it has not been tested to see how it compares to competing products in an automotive environment. Referring to testing like that which was done by both Don @ SDS and Chris (TS2F). I have no doubt it will work as well or better than many of the car audio branded stuff, but at this point, it is all a gamble. 



GreatLaBroski said:


> Actually technical data sheets are very useful when they're standards compliant. Industrial supplies are typically standards compliant. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that data sheets are not useful for determining performance, as that's actually exactly what they do. They define a performance specification based upon generally accepted testing practices (such as ANSI / ISO standards) so as a professional, you can look at different products and know where they stand.


Believe it or not, comparing products, technical data sheets and writing technical specifications is part of what I do for work. Analyzing products for standard test performance, code and legal compliance is almost a daily occurrence for me. Usually, this is a straight forward task in the architecture/construction industry. Much less so when it comes to the automotive aftermarket side of things. And even more difficult when you aren't necessarily able to correlate standard testing data for an industrial product to our specific use case.

ASTM E756 seems to be the primary testing standard by which CLD products are measured. Even looking at products at an industrial level, that information isn't easy to find. Now, try finding it for the automotive aftermarket. Some (very few) provide it, most don't. Kind of hard to make an apples to apples comparison when the data just plain isn't available. 

A cursory look shows that both Dynamat Xtreme and Secondskin Damplifier Pro exceed the performance of the Pyrotek Decidamp CLD based on the ASTM E756 standard. IF, they're (all brands) published data is accurate. Especially as temperature increases. But, this testing only occurs at 200Hz from what I understand. 



GreatLaBroski said:


> The issue with other audio-specific CLDs is that they DON'T comply with any standardized testing nor do they put out technical spec sheets. I have yet to see a car-audio-oriented CLD manufacturer who puts out technical data sheets, have you? There's SDS's out there, but that's obviously not the same thing at all.


Yes, some data is out there from a few of them, hence my comment above comparing the three options. If you dig a little deeper, you can find data for Dynamat Xtreme (I doubt it is for the newer black faced product) as well as Damplifier Pro. (Assumption of steel substrate for comparison below.)

TEMP (C) | Pyrotek Steel | Pyrotek Aluminum| Dynamat | Second Skin
-20 | 0.140 | 0.270 | _.___ | _.___
-10 | 0.180 | 0.350 | 0.081 | 0.224
000 | 0.190 | 0.380 | 0.240 | 0.374
010 | 0.140 | 0.280 | 0.257 | 0.437
020 | 0.090 | 0.180 | 0.417 | 0.224
030 | 0.060 | 0.110 | 0.259 | 0.271
040 | 0.040 | 0.090 | 0.194 | 0.155
050 | 0.040 | 0.070 | 0.140 | 0.102
060 | _.___ | _.___ | 0.094 | 0.071

And I will again state that while the ASTM E756 seems to be the standard for testing, it is a controlled test with specific parameters that may or may not translate to a typical car audio install. This is one of the reasons I appreciated Chris' testing and something he went over quite a bit in his testing thread. While not perfect, it gave us a much closer approximation to how the products would perform in a typical car door.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Truthunter said:


> Did anyone else click around their other products? This stuff may be the perfect solutioin for sealing off the larger holes on inner door skins:
> 
> https://www.pyroteknc.com/products/soundsteel-mpm/


Wonder if this is similar to the DynaPlate product? Dynamat doesn’t really clarify a lot of info on what the DynaPlate product is exactly.

But I too also would like to know more info about those Velcro pieces Don was selling. I loved those things!


----------



## Theslaking

I think conjecture about Don (and his business) is apprehensible. For a guy that has been consistently overly helpful and no nonsense abruptly stopping a business in this fashion indicates some type of serious problem. He has been nothing but up front and forthcoming in business, especially with this forum. I'd expect he'll come out in time and let us know what he can.


----------



## GreatLaBroski

rton20s said:


> With industrial products of this nature, that is the best you're likely to find. To purchase in quantities for individual use, you'll likely need to find someone who already met an MOQ and is likely relabeling or repackaging on their own. You seem to understand that. A group buy would likely be possible, but a nightmare to organize and execute.


I agree it'd be a pain in the ass. Whether it'd be worth it or not would be dependent on the pricing and the volume for the MOQ / total group buy order and whether there's margin to make it worthwhile. I suspect that there wouldn't be much margin there, which is what you're intimating.

I'd have to reach out and see what kind of MOQ we're talking about.

As far as the rest of your post goes, I agree really with everything. I didn't quote it because I don't want to add multiple huge walls of text to this thread.

I tend to trust industrial products more (I've worked in manufacturing a decade ago), simply because it's harder to run a business where you rip off customers who are purchasing 6-7 figure quantities of a product on 30-90 day terms. QA will figure it out then the manufacturer is left with a disputed accounts payable to recover, or a lawsuit. Customer facing businesses have a much easier time of cutting corners, or at least can do so less severe immediate repercussions.

I should reach out to their sales guys and see if they sell sample quantities. I'd love a homegrown test versus Dynamat Xtreme and Second Skin.


----------



## rton20s

GreatLaBroski said:


> I agree it'd be a pain in the ass. Whether it'd be worth it or not would be dependent on the pricing and the volume for the MOQ / total group buy order and whether there's margin to make it worthwhile. I suspect that there wouldn't be much margin there, which is what you're intimating.
> 
> I'd have to reach out and see what kind of MOQ we're talking about.
> 
> As far as the rest of your post goes, I agree really with everything. I didn't quote it because I don't want to add multiple huge walls of text to this thread.
> 
> I tend to trust industrial products more (I've worked in manufacturing a decade ago), simply because it's harder to run a business where you rip off customers who are purchasing 6-7 figure quantities of a product on 30-90 day terms. QA will figure it out then the manufacturer is left with a disputed accounts payable to recover, or a lawsuit. Customer facing businesses have a much easier time of cutting corners, or at least can do so less severe immediate repercussions.
> 
> I should reach out to their sales guys and see if they sell sample quantities. I'd love a homegrown test versus Dynamat Xtreme and Second Skin.


Something tells me their sales guys are going to be hit with an inordinate amount of car audio people asking about purchasing samples.


----------



## GreatLaBroski

rton20s said:


> Something tells me their sales guys are going to be hit with an inordinate amount of car audio people asking about purchasing samples.


:laugh: I can do it through my company but I feel like a scumbag.


----------



## K-pop sucks

Now that SDS is gone. What is the next best thing? Dynamat Extreme or second skin diamplifier pro? What causes second skin CLD to smell? Vocs?


----------



## dgage

Theslaking said:


> I think conjecture about Don (and his business) is apprehensible. For a guy that has been consistently overly helpful and no nonsense abruptly stopping a business in this fashion indicates some type of serious problem. He has been nothing but up front and forthcoming in business, especially with this forum. I'd expect he'll come out in time and let us know what he can.


I agree and I think most would agree with you. Don built a business based on consumer information and service so he deserves the benefit of the doubt. First and foremost I hope Don is alright and healthy. Secondly, I do hope he gets to a point where he can/will share some information with the community but the information is his to do with as he wants. Back to #1, the primary concern is our hope that Don and his family are healthy.


----------



## preston

> Originally Posted by Theslaking View Post
> I think conjecture about Don (and his business) is apprehensible. For a guy that has been consistently overly helpful and no nonsense abruptly stopping a business in this fashion indicates some type of serious problem. He has been nothing but up front and forthcoming in business, especially with this forum. I'd expect he'll come out in time and let us know what he can.





dgage said:


> I agree and I think most would agree with you. Don built a business based on consumer information and service so he deserves the benefit of the doubt. First and foremost I hope Don is alright and healthy. Secondly, I do hope he gets to a point where he can/will share some information with the community but the information is his to do with as he wants. Back to #1, the primary concern is our hope that Don and his family are healthy.


I didn't see anybody being negative or "apprehensible" pondering what happened. 

My feeling is everyone commenting on this thread feels the same way as you guys do. There is of course curiosity because we care.


----------



## Grinder

preston said:


> I didn't see anybody being *negative or "apprehensible"* pondering what happened.
> 
> My feeling is everyone commenting on this thread feels the same way as you guys do. There is of course curiosity because we care.


It seems you've misunderstood. 

Apprehensible means capable of being understood or perceived.


----------



## dgage

preston said:


> I didn't see anybody being negative or "apprehensible" pondering what happened.
> 
> My feeling is everyone commenting on this thread feels the same way as you guys do. There is of course curiosity because we care.


There were some statements that could be construed as presumptive and negative such as the one that stated, “I see what is going on here”. Hard to say what was meant there exactly and one interpretation is a negative one. I just want to be clear that the service Don provided both with his products but even more so with the information was greatly appreciated. It would be nice if the information and products don’t disappear completely but that ending has yet to be written.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Thanks to all for the Support*

The site will remain up for a year - takes a lot of people that long to get to their projects. Just won't be selling products any longer.


----------



## Jroo

I wonder why there was not some form of going out of business sale or clearance? No idea what was going on behind the scenes but this did seem so sudden, but have seen a business close over night. 

I recently used a lock smith and went in on Friday to have a key made. Talked to the guy and he told me if you have any issues with the key come back on Monday and I will re-cut it. Used the key over the weekend and had to jingle it to work so took it back on Monday. The place was cleared out and a sign on front door saying after 15 years I am done. So basically on a Sat and Sunday, the guy cleared the whole shop down and shut it down. 

Either way sad to see another car audio focused company gone.


----------



## Alrojoca

Sad to hear the news. 

Don't rule out, a buy out. Many businesses are bought to simply make them disappear. Or a new name or company may appear. The buyer can't simply justify selling or manufacturing the product for a low profit margin, or payroll to stay profitable. Or costs go up and the market won't allow to stay profitable.


----------



## Elektra

Jscoyne2 said:


> 1 - KnuKonceptz Kolossus - $5.42-$4 per square foot, for normal amounts.
> 
> 2 - SDS CLD Tiles - $6.36-$5.40 per square foot, for normal amounts.
> 
> 3 - Silent Coat 4mm - $5.47 per square foot*
> 
> 
> 
> I've listed Silent Coat as third, because they only seem to have one price point at this time, and in order to do a whole car, their price point is higher than SDS. Buying 16.6 square feet of SDS gets you to $5.40 per square foot, where 15.36 square feet of Silent Coat is $5.47. Anything over that is still $5.47.
> 
> 
> 
> The pro's of SDS is direct customer service from the owner and original CLD tester, along with a killer no frills website that is the only sound deadening website that I have found from any company not to have at least one lie, stretch of the truth, or statement of ignorance, along with the best overall product when considering the requirements of a CLD designed for car use. It's also the lightest of the top 3 products, by at least 25%. The only con I can come up with is price, but as far as I'm personally concerned the price is justified. As said earlier, this is what I'll personally be using. (Previously, I would have listed difficulty in ordering as a con as well, as some people had reported issues, but, now that SDS has a fully working cart system implemented, that is a non issue anymore)
> 
> 
> 
> The pro's of Silent Coat 4mm are slightly better damping (and by slight I mean right at the edge of this test's tolerance). The cons are again, price, as well as a lower heat tolerance level, highest weight of the top 3, and a weak constraining layer. Some might remember, that Silent Coat is the product I had issues with using the stamper to cut out, as the stress caused the constraining layer to tear on the edges. This is the only product I've had do this. I would not use this in an area where heavy rubbing or sliding might take place.
> 
> 
> 
> The pro for Kolossus is price. Its the lowest priced, high performing product, performing just under SDS in damping (performing below SDS by right at the tolerances of the testing). The cons, well, slightly less damping performance, a flammable plastic coating on the aluminum the second highest weight of the top 3, and significantly less heat stability. I don't think the product performs low enough in heat testing to fall off, but I do think SDS would perform measurably better in summer conditions. Likewise, I don't think the flammable coating is going to cause an issue (its also not the only product that has this), but it does need to be mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are building a car that needs to be light weight, but still want a damping material, Dynamat Xtreme is the only way to go. It is the lightest weight to performance material out there, period. It performs, in my tests, as well as Damplifier Pro, and almost as well as STP Silver, which are both heavier. It also performs significantly better than Raamat BXT2, the other lightweight product.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would stay away from anything from GTMat. None of their products had the combined performance and heat resistance to convince me to use them in any way shape or form in a vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> Peel N Seal is an obvious no, as is Fatmat.
> 
> 
> 
> Alphadamp is discontinued (and performed just under Damplifier Pro) and Murdermat has discontinued their best product, and has supply issues.
> 
> 
> 
> I would not personally use Silent Coat 2mm or 5mm, the first due to the performance, the second due to smell and heat resistance.
> 
> 
> 
> I would not use Raamat BXT2, Memphis Mojo Mat, KnuKonceptz KnoKnoise Resonance Control, Stinger Roadkill Expert, or STP-Atlantic Vizomat due to low performance.
> 
> 
> 
> I would not use STP-Atlantic Bomb due to poor heat resistance.
> 
> 
> 
> I would not personally use Second Skin Audio's Damplifier Pro. The product itself has nothing wrong with it, its just that there are better products out there based on my testing for the same cost. It performs around the same level as Dynamat Xtreme in my testing, and holds up to heat fine.




Have you tested Vibe? UK brand about half the price of Damplifier Pro and Dynamat Extreme.... 

I suppose if one sheet is slightly lower performance to say Dynamat and Damplifier Pro then you could double it up and the net result could be slightly better - albeit at a weight penalty? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jscoyne2

Elektra said:


> Have you tested Vibe? UK brand about half the price of Damplifier Pro and Dynamat Extreme....
> 
> I suppose if one sheet is slightly lower performance to say Dynamat and Damplifier Pro then you could double it up and the net result could be slightly better - albeit at a weight penalty?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I didn't do the testing. Just quoted it

Google, cld showdown. Go to the very last post.

And anyone else asking "have you tried?"

The point of the testing was to show the massive difference between products that felt and looked nearly identical. Lets stick to whats been show and proven and is still available.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## K-pop sucks

I wonder why he would just close up shop and retire without doing a fire sale or going out of business sale? Does that mean he has just enough product for the existing orders in the system?


----------



## zscarlson1

*Re: Thanks to all for the Support*



Rudeboy said:


> The site will remain up for a year - takes a lot of people that long to get to their projects. Just won't be selling products any longer.


Any insight with pending orders that were placed say end of last week?


----------



## GreatLaBroski

dgage said:


> There were some statements that could be construed as presumptive and negative such as the one that stated, “I see what is going on here”. Hard to say what was meant there exactly and one interpretation is a negative one. I just want to be clear that the service Don provided both with his products but even more so with the information was greatly appreciated. It would be nice if the information and products don’t disappear completely but that ending has yet to be written.


I'm fairly sure that was directed at me. To clarify, I've sold a business before and I know how this works. That's what I was referring to as "the game". Nothing negative.

Some people just love to be offended and go out of their way to find a reason.


----------



## rton20s

People will continue to speculate if they want to, but we know that Don is aware of this thread since he has now posted. I'm sure if he wants to share any details, he will share when and what he deems pertinent.

And I would be remiss, if I didn't take this opportunity to express my sincere gratitude to Don. What he did for the car audio community and sound treatment is without parallel. I wish you nothing but the best as you end this chapter and move on to your next.


----------



## GreatLaBroski

rton20s said:


> And I would be remiss, if I didn't take this opportunity to express my sincere gratitude to Don. What he did for the car audio community and sound treatment is without parallel. I wish you nothing but the best as you end this chapter and move on to your next.


I want to second this. I really appreciate the multitude of quality information that you put out there Don. You've done a lot for the car audio community and helped cut through a lot of the marketing BS out there. Thanks for putting out a quality product for so long. Your work was clearly appreciated, based upon the responses in this thread.


----------



## jonah1810

Well that explains why i couldn't make an order of mlv these past few weeks. I've yet to find any salesperson of car audio goods who was as helpful as Don. They're all just trying to sell you something. 

You will truly be missed.

Now with that being said can anybody explain to me why Toots recommended against the kno knoise resonance control? It looked like the same in dampening to dynamat and damplifier pro to me. But he said it was ineffective. 

Would be nice to be able to use what i have instead of spending more.


----------



## rton20s

jonah1810 said:


> Well that explains why i couldn't make an order of mlv these past few weeks. I've yet to find any salesperson of car audio goods who was as helpful as Don. They're all just trying to sell you something.
> 
> You will truly be missed.
> 
> Now with that being said can anybody explain to me why Toots recommended against the kno knoise resonance control? It looked like the same in dampening to dynamat and damplifier pro to me. But he said it was ineffective.
> 
> Would be nice to be able to use what i have instead of spending more.


Knu Resonance Control did not perform as well as Dynamat Xtreme or Damplifier Pro. If you want the best bang for your buck, it is still Knu Kolossus. Though, if you live in a really hot climate, there is potential for failure. (Failed at 300F whereas I believe SDS didn't fail at all up to the max testing temp of 400F.) At this point though, it is the current king of the hill for performance in the US since SDS is closed and Silent Coat is no longer available. 

I know TS2F has stated his new "go to" will likely be Dynamat Xtreme now that SDS is leaving the market. I reached out to him and it also didn't fail up to 400F, just like SDS.


----------



## jonah1810

rton20s said:


> Knu Resonance Control did not perform as well as Dynamat Xtreme or Damplifier Pro. If you want the best bang for your buck, it is still Knu Kolossus. Though, if you live in a really hot climate, there is potential for failure. (Failed at 300F whereas I believe SDS didn't fail at all up to the max testing temp of 400F.) At this point though, it is the current king of the hill for performance in the US since SDS is closed and Silent Coat is no longer available.
> 
> I know TS2F has stated his new "go to" will likely be Dynamat Xtreme now that SDS is leaving the market. I reached out to him and it also didn't fail up to 400F, just like SDS.


I just wish there was better options in Canada. I just want to deaden my doors right now but the shipping on kollosus is more than the product itself.

Dynamat i can get cheaper but i have a 7" dedicated midbass and want the best dampening i can get. And i just couldn't see any big difference on the graphs between the three i mentioned. 

On another note do we have guidelines for how hot your car metal will get? I never even considered thermal thresholds. My cars black and in the summer it can get 40C. Is 300f not enough?


----------



## Weigel21

I have a difficult time believing my car's sheet metal exceeds 300*F.


----------



## rton20s

Weigel21 said:


> I have a difficult time believing my car's sheet metal exceeds 300*F.


It doesn't. But 160-180F over a long period is not uncommon. This of course depends on ambient temp and paint color. Products that maintain adhesion at higher temperature can be an indication of higher quality butyl formulation and better stability/performance at higher temperature. The higher the temp, the less effective CLD becomes. 

For those wanting a simpler comparison of graphs, I can put together something like this. The same could be done for waterfalls.


----------



## Angrywhopper

rton20s said:


> We all know, that based on objective testing, there isn't. However, when I say "we all" that makes up an extremely minute percentage of the industry. I'd love to see some legitimate data regarding market share for CLD companies. Anyone want to guess what percentage of the market SDS held?
> 
> When you look around at the industry as a whole, CLD products tend to go in waves, just like everything else. When John Schwartz brought in Soundskins, you couldn't escape it. It was "the best deadener ever" regardless of how it actually performed. It was marketed well, and it was everywhere. This will continue, whether SDS is around or not.


Great post. People on here tend to 'forget' the business side of things.

There are a ton more competitors in this category, many of which are from large corps. Metra Electronics, AAMP, Rockford, Focal; All large car audio companies that are now pushing Sound Dampening heavily. They're able to purchase in huge quantities and sell/distribute easily to all their existing dealers. Then you've got companies like SoundSkins who are excellent marketers and got all the top installers to use their products. You can probably guess that doesn't leave a whole lot for SDS. There's only so much you can do serving the very small hobbyist market.


----------



## Weigel21

rton20s said:


> Weigel21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a difficult time believing my car's sheet metal exceeds 300*F.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't. But 160-180F over a long period is not uncommon. This of course depends on ambient temp and paint color. Products that maintain adhesion at higher temperature can be an indication of higher quality butyl formulation and better stability/performance at higher temperature. The higher the temp, the less effective CLD becomes.
> 
> For those wanting a simpler comparison of graphs, I can put together something like this. The same could be done for waterfalls.
Click to expand...

True, and I could see how deadener that is continuously heating up to nearly 200* and cooling down could begin to degrade the effectiveness of adhesives and even the effectiveness of the product to perform as intended. So, the wider range the temperature tolerance, the longer the product is likely to last and perform as intended.


----------



## Pb82 Ronin

CLD, Kolossus, Dynamat...none of them DEADEN anything. This has been discussed a great deal on these boards.


----------



## Weigel21

Damper if you will then, but deadener is a universally used term as well.


----------



## ToNasty

Well i made my order Friday or Saturday. And i just got it in right now so he is shipping out final orders


----------



## Chris12

ToNasty said:


> Well i made my order Friday or Saturday. And i just got it in right now so he is shipping out final orders


Glad to hear.

Don refunded my order and emailed me within an hour of its placement (which was the beginning of this thread).

I’d bet that anyone who placed their order on or before last weekend, and didn’t receive a refund, will receive their orders.


----------



## nyquistrate

*Re: Thanks to all for the Support*



rton20s said:


> And I would be remiss, if I didn't take this opportunity to express my sincere gratitude to Don. What he did for the car audio community and sound treatment is without parallel. I wish you nothing but the best as you end this chapter and move on to your next.





GreatLaBroski said:


> I want to second this. I really appreciate the multitude of quality information that you put out there Don. You've done a lot for the car audio community and helped cut through a lot of the marketing BS out there. Thanks for putting out a quality product for so long. Your work was clearly appreciated, based upon the responses in this thread.


^^^ Both of these ^^^




Rudeboy said:


> The site will remain up for a year - takes a lot of people that long to get to their projects. Just won't be selling products any longer.


Don, I had a cart built and was about to place an order. I have benefited 
from and appreciated your work. If things change with your situation it would be great to have you back as a vendor. The website now is mostly "under maintenance". Do you still have those pages and pictures so the site could continue?


----------



## jonah1810

Earlier in the thread somebody posted an archived SDS website.


----------



## Aaron Clinton

*I am going to try out some Silencer 3-in-1 soon to see how it stacks up.

*get it, stacks* *


----------



## rton20s

Aaron Clinton said:


> *I am going to try out some Silencer 3-in-1 soon to see how it stacks up.
> 
> *get it, stacks* *


I guess it is a good thing you're an approved vendor.


----------



## ToNasty

Aaron Clinton said:


> *I am going to try out some Silencer 3-in-1 soon to see how it stacks up.
> 
> 
> 
> *get it, stacks* *


What is this? Ive never heard of it

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## rton20s

ToNasty said:


> What is this? Ive never heard of it
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I'll give you one guess where you can find it. :laugh:


----------



## ToNasty

rton20s said:


> I'll give you one guess where you can find it.


(Rolls eyes)

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## rob feature

Wow, really sad to hear this. SDS will be missed. As others have said, thanks for your contributions to the community Don - and best wishes in your future adventures.


----------



## lampinlance

Thank you Don for sharing your knowledge and providing great products. Good luck!


----------



## mulagain

Wow - guess I should have come back to the ICE game about 1-2 weeks earlier (been MIA a while). 

I am shocked that Don/SDS is calling it quits. *Best of luck to you, Don!*


So it seems Kolossus is now the tip choice esp where budget is a factor, correct? 

I'm getting ready to deaden my Model 3 and have always liked Knu's products, but weight is a consideration this time around. I also found a 36sq/ft pack of Dynamat Extreme for $169.99 shipped (vs ~$155 for Kolossus) so I'm weighing the two before purchasing... no pun intended.

Kolossus has the advantage overall damping but at nearly 2x the weight. Its not clear to me if the damping improvement would be worth the weight sacrifice. I guess I'd be willing to slap on another 17+ lbs for a 35-36 sq/ft kit if the resonance control was significant/audible.

What about you guys - what would your choice be in this situation?

Kolossus: .93lb/sqft (33.48lb total)
DM Extreme: .45lb/sqft (16.2lb total)


----------



## Lanson

rton20s said:


> Knu Resonance Control did not perform as well as Dynamat Xtreme or Damplifier Pro. If you want the best bang for your buck, it is still Knu Kolossus. Though, if you live in a really hot climate, there is potential for failure. (Failed at 300F whereas I believe SDS didn't fail at all up to the max testing temp of 400F.) At this point though, it is the current king of the hill for performance in the US since SDS is closed and Silent Coat is no longer available.
> 
> I know TS2F has stated his new "go to" will likely be Dynamat Xtreme now that SDS is leaving the market. I reached out to him and it also didn't fail up to 400F, just like SDS.



Just wanted to say:


Kolossus is all I use now, and here in Vegas I've not had a moment of concern with it falling off. In fact, with the Durango, I had it installed on the outside sheet metal of the spare tire well area, mostly because of the need to deaden more aggressively than the inner area would allow. In the 3 years that I had the vehicle, I saw no sign of the deadener releasing in any way at all. Also, Knu is the best stuff I've ever used besides SDS. I liked SDS when I used it, but I got a version that didn't stick so good (early version I think), so I never really re-upped after that. Knu, there's usually a box or two in my possession at all times.


----------



## JCsAudio

mulagain said:


> so I'm weighing the two before purchasing... no pun intended.


You might like this https://www.parts-express.com/sonic-barrier-lightweight-vinyl-sound-damping-sheet-27-x-40--268-035
I used it on the first go around for my truck and it works very well and it the lightest sound deadening product I have ever used. It compared well to the Second Skin Damplifier I also used at the time.


----------



## SkizeR

V8toilet said:


> You might like this https://www.parts-express.com/sonic-barrier-lightweight-vinyl-sound-damping-sheet-27-x-40--268-035
> I used it on the first go around for my truck and it works very well and it the lightest sound deadening product I have ever used. It compared well to the Second Skin Damplifier I also used at the time.


that stuff is sorta like the cascade product i used in the cadillac build. wasnt to bad. Only problem was installation was much more of a hassle vs cld, but it did have some pretty good end results. cant speak on how it holds up to heat though


----------



## JCsAudio

SkizeR, It’s been in the doors of my truck for three summers now and when I took the door panels off recently to swap speakers it was all still there.


----------



## SkizeR

V8toilet said:


> SkizeR, It’s been in the doors of my truck for three summers now and when I took the door panels off recently to swap speakers it was all still there.


well thats good that it didnt up and walk away


----------



## seafish

Im going to chip in something about the KnuKonceptz Kolossus. 

While SDS has been my go to for CLD and other prducts, simply do the quality of the material and Don's customer service, I have also used KKK to good effect with quick and easy shipping from Amazon.

More importantly, I believe that the KKK can ALSO serve as a sound barrier and enhance the effects off MLV simply because it weighs almost as much per sq foot as 1#/SF MLV. The KKK weighs in at .89#/SF, which means that it is ALMOST as dense as 1#/SF MLV or sheet lead. DENSITY, in addition to structural isolation, is the OTHER most important ingredient to blocking sound wave travel. 

I mean, material DENSITY is EXACTLY why both MLV and sheet lead work as well as they do to block sound..they are both extremely dense materials that can be applied in a relativelyy thin, relatively continuous layer in order to block sound. Concrete also works, but it is nether thin or easy to apply in a car...LOL!!!

What I am suggesting is that while clearly the KKK works as an effective CLD (albeit with the caveat that it might not have the top temp resistance as SDS or Dynamat Xtreme does, it ALSO has a fairly high density that the other CLD do not necessarily have. Of course to take advantage of its density as a sound blocker, you WOULD need to use 100% coverage with it , just like the MLV you are applying, but unlike it's use as a CLD where Don and others correctly pointed out about the loss of cost efficiency gains using more then 30% CLD coverage simply in order to reduce panel resonance. 

That being said, if the KKK in fact functions like MLV or sheet lead simply due to its density, and I have little doubt that it would, and one can afford the extra weight, coverage and expense of using it at 100%, I do believe that it will nearly double the sound blocking effects of using MLV alone. Or one could use it at 100% coverage and then apply only 1/2#/SF MLV in order to save some weight and thickness to make reapplying panels easier but still have MORE then effectiveness if using 1#/SF MLV with another type of CLD.

Just some food for thought!!!


----------



## SkizeR

Just a reminder, weight doesnt do much if it isnt isolated from vibration. I'm sure it does something, but not nearly as much as decoupled mlv

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## K-pop sucks

I'll go KKK for my next CLD binch. I've covered most my car with the 30% panel coverage for rule of thumb. Is there honestly much loss in noise absorbtion by not doing full coverage with CLD as a shield?

Current setup minimum coverage: 30% SDS CLD + SS ultra luxury MLV+ melamine foam 1/2" - 1"+ thinsulate 600L.


----------



## seafish

SkizeR said:


> Just a reminder, weight doesnt do much if it isnt isolated from vibration. I'm sure it does something, but not nearly as much as decoupled mlv
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


You are correct, but I am not talking about weight, but instead MASS or DENSITY, which by definition is weight/volume. And mass alone DOES block sound...think concrete wall next to a freeway.

Furthermore, though ISOLATION is not its primary purpose, CLD does in fact have some isolation properties due to its elastomeric butyl rubber layer. That is another reason wy I feel that KKK as a CLD, will also lend itself to blocking sound...it isolates and is dense, though not quite as dense as 1#/SF MLV and of course it would still need to be used in %100 coverage in order to utilize a sound blocking effect.


----------



## preston

There is only one answer - you must test it and let us know the noise transmission of it versus MLV.


----------



## SkizeR

preston said:


> There is only one answer - you must test it and let us know the noise transmission of it versus MLV.


thats what im getting at. i think layering up a bunch of cld could work to help block noise, but even at the same weight and coverage i dont think it would be nearly as effective as decoupled mlv, due to the cld not being as decoupled as the MLV with ccf


----------



## K-pop sucks

I'm interested in how much of a measurable difference there is by doing 100% CLD coverage vs 30% CLD coverage with CCF/MLV on top.

Are the noise absorbtion of partial CLD on par or better than full coverage when paired with melamine foam or thinsulate.


----------



## rob feature

seafish said:


> You are correct, but I am not talking about weight, but instead MASS or DENSITY, which by definition is weight/volume.


The difference in mass and weight is that you factor in a gravitational constant for weight. Mass is the same no matter where you go. Weight will depend on gravity. Density = mass over volume.


----------



## Lanson

There are a bunch of new brands on the scene, some not-so-new but now on Amazon. Now, personally, every time I try a new brand I end up going back to Knu, but brands like Vibro catch my eye. 



Recent brands to skip - Noico (all of it) and Reckhorn


----------



## seafish

rob feature said:


> The difference in mass and weight is that you factor in a gravitational constant for weight. Mass is the same no matter where you go. Weight will depend on gravity. Density = mass over volume.


OK, thanks for clarifying the terminology, but I do not think that it changes the basic relationship between a material's density and its ability to block sound transmision nor the fact that KKK is almost as dense as MLV, at least when used at the same altitude at the same time, right??


----------



## seafish

SkizeR said:


> thats what im getting at. i think layering up a bunch of cld could work to help block noise, but even at the same weight and coverage i dont think it would be nearly as effective as decoupled mlv, due to the cld not being as decoupled as the MLV with ccf


But Justin did recently post his technical research paper showing that decoupling MLV with CCF did NOT make an effective difference from using MLV with simply an airspace between it and the CLD, or rather just loosely hanging it. Of course, that is not ways possible un a vehicle, especially on the floor. 

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...ight-material-decouple-mass-loaded-vinyl.html


----------



## seafish

preston said:


> There is only one answer - you must test it and let us know the noise transmission of it versus MLV.


For sure, that is one of the ways to test the idea.
I was hoping that JZ might step up to the plate again!! LOL.


----------



## seafish

K-pop sucks said:


> I'm interested in how much of a measurable difference there is by doing 100% CLD coverage vs 30% CLD coverage with CCF/MLV on top.



Just to be clear, I am not trying to confuse the issue between using CLD as a resonance inhibitor and MLV as a sound blocker, but am wondering if using a more dense CLD at 100% coverage will also help to block more sound transmission as well. My gut feeling is that it will!!!


----------



## ManBearPig

I dont understand why some people still go with 100% coverage when it's been proven 25% is just as effective


----------



## SkizeR

ManBearPig said:


> I dont understand why some people still go with 100% coverage when it's been proven 25% is just as effective


Not just as effective, but its where diminishing returns starts

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## K-pop sucks

seafish said:


> K-pop sucks said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm interested in how much of a measurable difference there is by doing 100% CLD coverage vs 30% CLD coverage with CCF/MLV on top.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just to be clear, I am not trying to confuse the issue between using CLD as a resonance inhibitor and MLV as a sound blocker, but am wondering if using a more dense CLD at 100% coverage will also help to block more sound transmission as well. My gut feeling is that it will!!!
Click to expand...

I am wondering if there is a large difference with covering a panel fully in CLD with the usual materials on top vs only 30% CLD with the same dampening on top.


----------



## rob feature

seafish said:


> rob feature said:
> 
> 
> 
> The difference in mass and weight is that you factor in a gravitational constant for weight. Mass is the same no matter where you go. Weight will depend on gravity. Density = mass over volume.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, thanks for clarifying the terminology, but I do not think that it changes the basic relationship between a material's density and its ability to block sound transmision nor the fact that KKK is almost as dense as MLV, at least when used at the same altitude at the same time, right??
Click to expand...

Nope would not matter. I kind of doubt you'd even be able to tell any difference among elevations anywhere on earth assuming a uniform temperature.


----------



## Lanson

SkizeR said:


> Not just as effective, but its where diminishing returns starts
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk



Yeah I subscribe to this as well. Sometimes you have to layer up, like when an 18" subwoofer is downfiring into the spare tire well. LOL.


For me, my target is 25-30% of the straight metal. Curved and otherwise creased sections get less attention.


For a topper of CLD, I use all sorts of things but I have an affinity toward the 1/4" and 1/8" Neoprene mentioned earlier from Foam Factory. I get the B-stock stuff since it is invisible once installed.


----------



## captainbuff

mulagain said:


> Kolossus has the advantage overall damping but at nearly 2x the weight. Its not clear to me if the damping improvement would be worth the weight sacrifice.
> 
> Kolossus: .93lb/sqft (33.48lb total)
> DM Extreme: .45lb/sqft (16.2lb total)


Simple answer: How important is the weight of the car vs the sound isolation/deadening/whatever TO YOU.

I don't want to sound like an an ******* but at MORE THAN double the weight (not nearly) is there any real surprise that it wins out in terms of overall damping? IMHO I would say hell no and get Dynamat (et al). That's just me though 

Peace


----------



## captainbuff

rob feature said:


> The difference in mass and weight is that you factor in a gravitational constant for weight. Mass is the same no matter where you go. Weight will depend on gravity. Density = mass over volume.





rob feature said:


> Nope would not matter. I kind of doubt you'd even be able to tell any difference among elevations anywhere on earth assuming a uniform temperature.


I love passive aggressive patronising one liner's.


----------



## rob feature

captainbuff said:


> I love passive aggressive patronising one liner's.


wft?


----------



## seafish

captainbuff said:


> Simple answer: How important is the weight of the car vs the sound isolation/deadening/whatever TO YOU.
> 
> I don't want to sound like an an ******* but at MORE THAN double the weight (not nearly) is there any real surprise that it wins out in terms of overall damping? IMHO I would say hell no and get Dynamat (et al). That's just me though
> 
> Peace


The first part of your answer seems correct to me but also incomplete.

You are correct in that each person must decide for themselves how much money and time they want to spend deadening their vehicle in order to enhance it as a mobile SQ "listening room". Weight of materials used to both damp and quiet a vehicle is important to some people as it ALSO directly effects mpg, suspension ride, door hinge longevity in addition to the quietness and betterment of the vehicle as a listening space.

In terms of there being no surprise as to the weight and/or density of KKK as being more effective then other CLD, I believe you may be wrong as I am ALSO suggesting that it will contribute to the effects , or even partly replace the need for, 1#/SF MLV as long as it is used at 100% coverage

That being said, further experiments need to be done to actually determine if 100% coverage of KKK CLD is not only effective in reducing panel resonance, as we already know that it is, but also effective in also quieting the vehicle as MLV does, thus either reducing the need for using a thicker MLV, or PERHAPS even eliminating the need for it altogether given that it has near the same density as MLV and the importance of density in BLOCKING sound.


----------



## captainbuff

seafish said:


> The first part of your answer seems correct to me but also incomplete.
> 
> In terms of there being no surprise as to the weight and/or density of KKK as being more effective then other CLD, I believe you may be wrong as I am ALSO suggesting that it will contribute to the effects , or even partly replace the need for, 1#/SF MLV as long as it is used at 100% coverage


OK...yeah got you. Just as a side note what I said was a statement designed to elicit some discussion...the mention of it being incomplete was based on assuming what you have put forward is correct.



seafish said:


> I believe you may be wrong


Prove me wrong! 
A really interesting topic and I look forward to any further discussion mate 

Definitely agreed in terms of the weight factor. To me (personally) that just rules it out straight away. To guys with bigger 4WD's and stuff that is likely not such a concern 

Peace


----------



## captainbuff

rob feature said:


> wft?


Hmm...a reasonably well disguised riposte aimed to undermine the stated sentence and thereby entice more direct aggression. Didn't work and comment stands.

Peace.


----------



## zacjones99

GreatLaBroski said:


> So what's everyone's take on a high-temp resistant CLD tile substitute for SDS? I have a black car and it gets 120+ degrees where I live. The panels can literally get 170F+.
> 
> Dynamat Extreme and Second Skin don't seem so hot here. They both come off extremely easily:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWBzhEUG-LI


I've had zero issues with Raammat BXT over the years in Sacramento where it gets over 100 every year, and I park my car outside in the sun.


----------



## Chris12

ManBearPig said:


> I dont understand why some people still go with 100% coverage when it's been proven 25% is just as effective


Does anyone know of any testing done to show the difference in NVH when using 25% CLD vs. 100%.


----------



## rton20s

Chris12 said:


> Does anyone know of any testing done to show the difference in NVH when using 25% CLD vs. 100%.


Not necessarily for NVH, but Chris (TooStubborn2Fail) did test varying coverage of CLD to see how it affected panel resonance. He also determined that single contiguous pieces are more effective than multiple pieces providing equal coverage. Here is his original post comparing partial vs "full" coverage. 

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1945907-post277.html


----------



## Chris12

rton20s said:


> Not necessarily for NVH, but Chris (TooStubborn2Fail) did test varying coverage of CLD to see how it affected panel resonance. He also determined that single contiguous pieces are more effective than multiple pieces providing equal coverage. Here is his original post comparing partial vs "full" coverage.
> 
> https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1945907-post277.html


I had always wondered about using one large piece vs covering the same amount of area with separate pieces. I didn’t realize he had also tested this.

I’ll re-read through the link you provided.

Thanks!


----------



## TheLex

rton20s said:


> Not necessarily for NVH, but Chris (TooStubborn2Fail) did test varying coverage of CLD to see how it affected panel resonance. He also determined that single contiguous pieces are more effective than multiple pieces providing equal coverage. Here is his original post comparing partial vs "full" coverage.
> 
> https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1945907-post277.html


Am I reading that graph correctly when I say it looks like the part that's most affected is the energy between 70-100 Hz?

That means that for the doors with most mid-bass drivers having little energy below 100 Hz, it's not that big of a difference?


----------



## rob feature

captainbuff said:


> Hmm...a reasonably well disguised riposte aimed to undermine the stated sentence and thereby entice more direct aggression. Didn't work and comment stands.
> 
> Peace.


Jesus dude, get a grip. You read into something that just wasn't there. Your comment can stand all it wants. IDGAF. 

Seafish, if what I wrote came across in that way, that was not the intention.


----------



## rton20s

TheLex said:


> Am I reading that graph correctly when I say it looks like the part that's most affected is the energy between 70-100 Hz?
> 
> That means that for the doors with most mid-bass drivers having little energy below 100 Hz, it's not that big of a difference?


The peak resonance in the panel was at ~85Hz. Adding 28.5% CLD widened the "Q" of the resonance and changed the peak frequency to ~73Hz and reduced it by ~14dB. 95% coverage pretty much entirely removed that peak resonance as well as reduced overall resonance below that peak beteen 5-6dB. 

And I am not sure where you cross your midbasses, but I can't count the number of times I have seen people trying to push the crossover lower and lower on their door mounted mids. Including people (and some manufacturers) running "full range" or with very low (<30Hz) high pass filters. If I had to guess, most people have their door mounted midbasses crossed between 60-80Hz. Want to guess what frequency range is creating the most energy in the door in that case?


----------



## seafish

rob feature said:


> Jesus dude, get a grip. You read into something that just wasn't there. Your comment can stand all it wants. IDGAF.
> 
> Seafish, if what I wrote came across in that way, that was not the intention.


Nope your comment only clarified the equation b/w weight, mass and density (I was smart enough to ignore the part about gravity), which I appreciate, even though it did not change the nature of what I was saying!!! IMO, it still ADDED to the actual conversation at hand, unlike some other poster's comments, some of which actually seem to be confrontational without even adding much at all...LOL!!!


----------



## TheLex

rton20s said:


> The peak resonance in the panel was at ~85Hz. Adding 28.5% CLD widened the "Q" of the resonance and changed the peak frequency to ~73Hz and reduced it by ~14dB. 95% coverage pretty much entirely removed that peak resonance as well as reduced overall resonance below that peak beteen 5-6dB.
> 
> And I am not sure where you cross your midbasses, but I can't count the number of times I have seen people trying to push the crossover lower and lower on their door mounted mids. Including people (and some manufacturers) running "full range" or with very low (<30Hz) high pass filters. If I had to guess, most people have their door mounted midbasses crossed between 60-80Hz. Want to guess what frequency range is creating the most energy in the door in that case?


Hmmmm.....I think you have a valid point. 80Hz is a very common crossover point. 14 dB is significant, but you get the whole enchilada with full coverage. 

I hope we all have robust door hinges!


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Don’t mean to sidetrack the CLD dialogue

But has anyone figured out the Velcro Don was selling. I tried the 3m Dual Lock product (both 250/400 and 400/400 versions) but it doesn’t come close to the strength of the Velcro from SDS.


----------



## zscarlson1

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Don’t mean to sidetrack the CLD dialogue
> 
> 
> 
> But has anyone figured out the Velcro Don was selling. I tried the 3m Dual Lock product (both 250/400 and 400/400 versions) but it doesn’t come close to the strength of the Velcro from SDS.


I dont think anyone has been able to find it.

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## RRWWS

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Don’t mean to sidetrack the CLD dialogue
> 
> But has anyone figured out the Velcro Don was selling. I tried the 3m Dual Lock product (both 250/400 and 400/400 versions) but it doesn’t come close to the strength of the Velcro from SDS.


I was trying to figure out the same thing. Here is a older screenshot saying what type of Velcro works.

I found the same stuff here- https://www.itapestore.com/velcrotapehookloopacrylicadhesive.aspx

I ordered it, but haven't tried it yet


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## Bnlcmbcar

Cool thanks. Looks promising!


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## Elektra

Can the lux liner pro work inside a door? It’s pretty heavy... but if you use the correct adhesive I think it can work? 

Or is there a better product to use? 


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## Derek_PNW

I found this forum and thread after going to SDS this weekend to place an order for a personal project. I've never ordered any of this type of product before, so unfortunately I don't have any experience for comparison. But, I like doing projects right the first time, regardless of cost, so SDS seemed like the right place to go. I'll be pausing my project until a general consensus is found regarding comparable alternatives. It seems to me that some of the products are easily replaced (MLV/CCF/HMF) but the CLD tiles and velcro were the best available on the net.

I'm hoping this thread can stay on topic and focused on finding comparable alternatives to SDS so we can press on with our projects. On that note, perhaps this for the velcro:
High-Heat Acrylic 3M Brand Hook & Loop (PSA)

Unfortunately I have nothing for comparison so there's no point in me purchasing it. If anybody is willing to sell me a few pieces of velcro and/or 1 CLD tile so I can have something for comparison, please PM me and I'll start purchasing possible alternatives for testing.

Thanks


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Guys, I'm working on getting testing again.

Here is the thread for that.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/415165-cld-testing.html


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## Derek_PNW

RRWWS said:


> I was trying to figure out the same thing. Here is a older screenshot saying what type of Velcro works.
> 
> I found the same stuff here- https://www.itapestore.com/velcrotapehookloopacrylicadhesive.aspx
> 
> I ordered it, but haven't tried it yet


RRWWS: So how did that Velcro compare?


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## ToNasty

Derek_PNW said:


> RRWWS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was trying to figure out the same thing. Here is a older screenshot saying what type of Velcro works.
> 
> I found the same stuff here- https://www.itapestore.com/velcrotapehookloopacrylicadhesive.aspx
> 
> I ordered it, but haven't tried it yet
> 
> 
> 
> RRWWS: So how did that Velcro compare?
Click to expand...

I ordered the resonix velcro from nick. And its just as strong as thr SDS stuff


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## Derek_PNW

ToNasty said:


> I ordered the resonix velcro from nick. And its just as strong as thr SDS stuff


Thanks for the info, greatly appreciated.


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## SkizeR

ToNasty said:


> I ordered the resonix velcro from nick. And its just as strong as thr SDS stuff


i probably shouldnt be saying this for one reason or the other but whatever.. but its the exact same stuff that SDS sold.


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## ToNasty

SkizeR said:


> i probably shouldnt be saying this for one reason or the other but whatever.. but its the exact same stuff that SDS sold.


I figured that but some people wouldn't be able to get that through their head. 

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## krisfnbz

What ever happened to SDS?

I actually met Don at his house way back in the day and we added all of his products on my old del sol. Such a great guy.



Honda del Sol Roadster 1992-1998 Build Log | Sound Deadener Showdown


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## rton20s

Don closed up shop/retired from the sound treatment industry.


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## Theslaking

I don't believe it was ever said out loud. Don stated that he retired.


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