# 1990 GMC PS6500 Build Log/Restoration



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I have a 1990 GM PS 6500 Step - Van that I have been working on for about 6 years. I bought it in 2008 from a salvage yard and it just sat in my yard for a year.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

cant wait to see what comes of this, I like big ol vans


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Here are some pics of the inside of the cab and cargo area.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Then I had the "Beast" Painted with a high build epoxy primer and sanded until smooth as glass. Finish coat was Emeron Airplane Paint. Made to last and apply on aluminum.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

A few more pics.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Mirror-like finish. Can see reflections of my old house.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

It had a Panasonic cassette player screwed to the ceiling and two 6x9's in the corners of the dash.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Lycancatt said:


> cant wait to see what comes of this, I like big ol vans


This is kind of a time capsule as I have been working on the truck for a few years and didn't log everything.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

As she looks today with new tires and rims and dual 4" stainless side pipes.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

The second sub box fabricated in the 1990's out of 1" Medium Density Fiberboard that came from a black television stand . Two separate sealed chambers about 1 cubic foot each. The inside seams are sealed with fiberglass cloth and resin. Added 1 1/4 pounds of fiberglass insulation on each side. Boston Pro Series 12" subs weigh 25 pounds a piece. Had to replace the surrounds a couple of years ago. Labor of love. That sub box is one of two sub woofer systems in the truck. It sits between the two seats and plays 40-80 Htz.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Here are some pics of the inside of the cab and cargo area.


Same angles after restoration.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

This is the second subwoofer system. New School Boston Acoustics 15" Dual voice coil subs playing from 20-40 Htz.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

10" Boston Acoustics Mid-Bases. 3/4" Plywood glued and screwed and covered with black carpet.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

I was wondering how your sig all broke down..how are you splitting frequencies for the 3 sizes of boston sub?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

and why..? seems pretty cool though


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Mid Range and Tweeter Pods. They are asymmetrical and aimed at the drivers ears. They are angled to match the windshield pillar as to not to obscure any visibility. Boston Pro Series 5 1/4" and 1" Neo Tweeters Generation one. Not quite finished yet. Have to move the tweeters up one inch and the mids up as close to the tweeters as possible. They are set on axis at ear level. Then they will be covered in the same black matching carpet. Can also see the mid-bases in the installed.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Lycancatt said:


> I was wondering how your sig all broke down..how are you splitting frequencies for the 3 sizes of boston sub?


Right now, I'm using the sub output on the head unit to send the signals to all three set ups. 

The JL Slash Amps have crossovers on them. To answer your question, i'm using the crossovers on the Slash amps.

Right now the 10's are running full range. ( later they will be on mid-bass duty from 80-200 or 400 ish or thereabouts. 

12's are running 40-80 Htz . 

15's are running 20-40 Htz 

Have an Alpine F#1 status system that is on the bench right now and will be installed later.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> and why..? seems pretty cool though


Because I have the room. lol And what is wrong with a 5 way?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Started with Alpine W910 and then tried Pioneer P99RS. Can see photos of both installed. Didn't care for the SQ of either one. Ended up with old school Alpine 
9835 for now. Sorry for the sideways pics.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

6 Amps in the back. 4 old school amps, and two new school. All running and being used. Class A and Class AB. Sorry for the messy wiring. Will straighten up when the F#1 gets installed.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

I'm surprised you didn't like the p99, it didn't seem to have a sonic signature that I could find..the alpine screen headunits do though.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Lycancatt said:


> I'm surprised you didn't like the p99, it didn't seem to have a sonic signature that I could find..the alpine screen headunits do though.


The Pioneer to me sounded too digital. Too harsh. Grating on my nerves. 

The Alpine touch screen had nice features. But it did so many things, like navigation, back up camera, video, phone, etc that I found the sound quality lacking. It sounded good, but not of the quality of the Alpine Head units of the late 1990's early 2000's.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Just some pics of the back. And how things are organized.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Last year had four 6x9's. Apologize for the sideways pics.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Audio aside, that is one straight body and great paint job. Beautiful old school van, gotta be the best looking vehicle at any jobsite. Kudos.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

FordEscape said:


> Audio aside, that is one straight body and great paint job. Beautiful old school van, gotta be the best looking vehicle at any jobsite. Kudos.


Thanks, those pics are from 4 years back. She is a little rough around the edges, now. But she does look good for her age for sure. Appreciate it.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Lycancatt said:


> I was wondering how your sig all broke down..how are you splitting frequencies for the 3 sizes of boston sub?




Just arrived in the mail. This will help with sending the proper frequencies to the front 3 way.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Used the ZAPCO crossover to separate frequencies for my front stage.

Tweeters 2500 HZs and up

Midrange 350 - 2500 HZs

MidBass 80 - 350 HZs


Using the Crossovers on the JL Slash amps to control frequencies on both stereo subwoofer systems. 

Sub system 1 40 - 80 HZs

Sub System 2 20- 40 Htz 

Got rid of the RCA in line crossover filters. 
Adding the Zapco added 9 Volt pre outs. Made a huge difference in sonic detail. Much cleaner signal that made itself apparent right away. Have the gains set about 1/2 way for all three. Pre outs running at about 4.5 volts.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Worked on the Pillar Pods. Moved the tweeters up a couple inches, and moved the mid-range up to ear level. Covered the pods with carpet to match the rest of the driver enclosures.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Here is a close up of the Passenger Pillar Pod and an image of it installed.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Also added a new amp for tweeter duty. New Old Stock Boston Acoustics GT-28. 250 watts per channel- two channel.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Next project took four full days. Removing the engine cover, sanding, wire-brushing all the corrosion, washing the soot, and installing layers of sound deadener and foam with a reflective foil layer over that. Then applying carpet over the sound deadener. Also replacing the gasket with new and adding/fixing up the attachment brackets. (No more bungie cords)


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Starting to sound deaden the passenger side fire wall and floor. Ordered carpet to install over sound deadening. Noticed 6 decibels quieter at idle. Was 95 decibels before treatment ( that big 500 cubic inch detroit diesel is very loud). Up to this point sound level quieted to 89 DB.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Something New. Thought I would try spinning Vinyl. An old Technics turntable that I stumbled on. It sounds pretty good with the Belari Tube Pre-Amp. Great dynamic range with new vinyl. Some of the older records sound dull and lifeless.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Sound clip from just an I phone. Cool to see it spin in a vehicle. The Pre-Amp does have a hum which you can hear in the back ground.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3UY0BG6HjY&feature=youtu.be


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

That is an insane (in a good way) build and install, I mean it gives OTT a whole new meaning . I would love to tune that setup, just to see what happens. How about you run the 15's from 20-60 and the 12" mounted above driver and passenger head from 60-300 and then the mid from 300 up. Just do away with the mid bass, two less drivers in the chain, make things simpler.

Any thoughts on adding a dsp?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> That is an insane (in a good way) build and install, I mean it gives OTT a whole new meaning . I would love to tune that setup, just to see what happens. How about you run the 15's from 20-60 and the 12" mounted above driver and passenger head from 60-300 and then the mid from 300 up. Just do away with the mid bass, two less drivers in the chain, make things simpler.
> 
> Any thoughts on adding a dsp?


The 15's are above my head and passengers heads.

the 12's are between the seats in a sealed box facing forward towards the engine compartment. They are blown right now.

The 10's are in the corners of the cab in front of and above the mid and tweet.

I right now i have the 15's playing from 20-80
and the 10's playing from 80-300

But I could try what you said and have the 15's play 20-60 and the 10's play 60-300.

The only issue I have now is that when I turn it up the vibrations from the 15's make the CD skip. I didn't have that issue with the 15's playing 20-40.

The head unit is mounted in a box attached to the ceiling. May move it to a box attached to the dash to fix that issue.

i do have an Alpine F#1 unit that I was going to bring into the system to replace the Alpine 9835. DVI 9990 and PXI 9990 as well as the TMI 9990.

I just can't get the software up and running. 

The Alpine 9835 has time alignment and 5 band parametric eq. And can be set up as a 3-way crossover. 

But I am using the Zapco to crossover frequencies.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> That is an insane (in a good way) build and install, I mean it gives OTT a whole new meaning . I would love to tune that setup, just to see what happens. How about you run the 15's from 20-60 and the 12" mounted above driver and passenger head from 60-300 and then the mid from 300 up. Just do away with the mid bass, two less drivers in the chain, make things simpler.
> 
> Any thoughts on adding a dsp?


Nick ( SkizeR ) said that you have very good tuning abilities and everything you suggested he tried and you seemed to be right on the mark with everything you suggested. 
I think that his vehicle is tuned perfectly. 

So if you don't mind, I will follow your advise and try what you suggest. I will change the crossover point from 80 to 60 and I'll report back to you the differences.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



Patrick Bateman said:


> OK, the truth is that I'll probably have a chance to listen to Gary's car back-to-back with mine, and I'm trying to prepare myself for that moment, because it's going to be really depressing to spend hundreds of hours on my car and have his car smoke mine.
> 
> To keep myself sane, I keep telling myself that Gary has a golden ear and I should focus on the fabrication side of this hobby.
> 
> ...


If you were interested, Patrick, I would like you to give a listen to my van. I have listened to Jon's van and I think my system is 3 to 4 leagues ahead of his, and mine is not yet finished. However, I know that preferences are subjective. My system compared to Jon's has far greater dynamics and impact. It sounds more live. With the magic bus, every CD that is played sounds good. My system shows dramatic differences in the quality of the recordings. A poor recording will be revealed, while a quality CD will sound phenomenal. The mid-bass punch actually beats you in the chest if you turn the knob far enough to the right.


Most who audition my van say several things:

A. " I've never heard a sound system like this before."

B. "It sounds like you are sitting front row with the musicians / instruments right in front of you. "

C. " I've heard a lot of stereo systems in my time including many home systems and this one beats them all. "

D. " This is the best car stereo I have ever heard "

E. " It's so clear. I hear details that I've never heard before"

"A", "B", and "D" being the most common.

A lot of this is owed to SqNut's tuning advise. I have to give credit where credit is due. There are hardly any reflections because the drivers are at ear level and on axis. With this system one is actually listening to the speakers instead of the stage that they throw, however, the speakers disappear if that makes sense. This is the major difference in my system. There is no EQ on the system except for a boost at 31.5 Htz, done with the amps.


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> If you were interested, Patrick, I would like you to give a listen to my van. I have listened to Jon's van and I think my system is 3 to 4 leagues ahead of his, and mine is not yet finished. However, I know that preferences are subjective. My system compared to Jon's has far greater dynamics and impact. It sounds more live. With the magic bus, every CD that is played sounds good. My system shows dramatic differences in the quality of the recordings. A poor recording will be revealed, while a quality CD will sound phenomenal. The mid-bass punch actually beats you in the chest if you turn the knob far enough to the right.
> 
> 
> Most who audition my van say several things:
> ...



WOW!


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



garysummers said:


> WOW!


i wonder how many levels it is above yours, Gary? wow is right.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



garysummers said:


> WOW!



For real.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



jtaudioacc said:


> i wonder how many levels it is above yours, Gary? wow is right.


Jon spent countless hours upon hours with fabrication, treatments, and tuning. He is an amazing guy, very humble and he's a most incredible fabricator. He knows frequencies and the technical side of things. His system is amazingly quiet, with no hums or hissing noise. With all the time and effort spent on his bus, I had an expectation to be blown away with the sound. There is no denying his skills with fabrication, integration, and tuning. 
Toted as the "World's best mobile sound system" by Absolute Sound magazine, I was expecting his system to be dramatically better than mine. Flying from Boston to California, mainly to audition the bus at The Show in Newport Beach.

He graciously allowed me to spend an hour in the bus by myself and I played a multitude of CD's that I brought with me as he was getting ready for the days events. To be the system was dull and lifeless. But a lot of audiophiles like that type of system. To be honest, 95% of the systems at THE Show Newport sounded " dull and lifeless " to me. Very few systems really got me excited. 
Of the 5% that were impressive to me, they were mainly the systems from Europe. GamuT Audio for one, which used Scan speak drivers. They advertise " Alive and Dynamic" and it's true. This is the type of system that I prefer.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> If you were interested, Patrick, I would like you to give a listen to my van. I have listened to Jon's van and I think my system is 3 to 4 leagues ahead of his, and mine is not yet finished. However, I know that preferences are subjective. My system compared to Jon's has far greater dynamics and impact. It sounds more live. With the magic bus, every CD that is played sounds good. My system shows dramatic differences in the quality of the recordings. A poor recording will be revealed, while a quality CD will sound phenomenal. The mid-bass punch actually beats you in the chest if you turn the knob far enough to the right.
> 
> 
> Most who audition my van say several things:
> ...


Wow says it all, but that's already been said. 90% of sound in any car/install is reflected energy and no car can sound awesome without TONS of eq to balance L/R response, dial in a base curve and then fine tune. I'm sure your car sound good, but the cars being mentioned in this thread are AWESOME. Some modesty may be required dude.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



sqnut said:


> Wow says it all, but that's already been said. 90% of sound in any car/install is reflected energy and no car can sound awesome without TONS of eq to balance L/R response, dial in a base curve and then fine tune. I'm sure your car sound good, but the cars being mentioned in this thread are AWESOME. Some modesty may be required dude.


With all due respect, where would the reflected energy come from? With the speakers on axis and nothing in between the listening position and speakers, where would the reflections come from?

The ceiling is sound deadened and with plywood under that and then carpet. The wall behind the driver and passenger is particle board, which absorbs sound. 

Some car audio guys who looked at my set up said that I'm cheating because it's like I have my living room in the cab.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> With all due respect, where would the reflected energy come from? With the speakers on axis and nothing in between the listening position and speakers, where would the reflections come from?


The reflections would come from the car. Even with the speakers close to you and on axis, sound would still get reflected off all the surfaces in the car. Below the beaming frequency, all speakers are omni directional they are radiating sound in ALL directions, now what you're hearing is the sum of direct and reflected energy. Furthermore no car will sound awesome without a ton of eq as I mentioned. 

If you have a 2ch at home, close your eyes and listen to a track you are very familiar with, then listen to it in the car. Hear a difference? If you don't, keep going till you do


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



sqnut said:


> The reflections would come from the car. Even with the speakers close to you and on axis, sound would still get reflected off all the surfaces in the car. Below the beaming frequency all speakers are omni directional they are radiating sound in ALL directions, now what you're hearing is the sum of direct and reflected energy. Furthermore no car will sound awesome without a ton of eq as I mentioned.
> 
> If you have a 2ch at home, close your eyes and listen to a track you are very familiar with, then listen to it in the car. Hear a difference? If you don't keep going till you do


I have Definitive Technology BP30's which I bought in the late 1990's. They are bipolar, which means that they have mid-range drivers and tweeters facing the listener and away from the listener. So I get both direct and reflected sounds in the house. They have a "d' appolito array" on the front and back. 
With your help, the system in the truck sounds better than my home system, which I never thought was possible. 

When comparing the system in the truck to any home system, there is a "live" quality that the truck has that is missing home systems. Especially with the drum set. Listening to drums in the truck sound like someone is playing them right in front of you. Especially with the new "WHO" CD I just bought.


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> If you were interested, Patrick, I would like you to give a listen to my van. I have listened to Jon's van and I think my system is 3 to 4 leagues ahead of his, and mine is not yet finished. However, I know that preferences are subjective. My system compared to Jon's has far greater dynamics and impact. It sounds more live. With the magic bus, every CD that is played sounds good. My system shows dramatic differences in the quality of the recordings. A poor recording will be revealed, while a quality CD will sound phenomenal. The mid-bass punch actually beats you in the chest if you turn the knob far enough to the right.
> 
> 
> Most who audition my van say several things:
> ...


i call that bold talk for a one eyed fat man,:laugh: of course i am kidding,dont hurt me too badly


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



sqnut said:


> The reflections would come from the car. Even with the speakers close to you and on axis, sound would still get reflected off all the surfaces in the car. Below the beaming frequency, all speakers are omni directional they are radiating sound in ALL directions, now what you're hearing is the sum of direct and reflected energy. Furthermore no car will sound awesome without a ton of eq as I mentioned.
> 
> If you have a 2ch at home, close your eyes and listen to a track you are very familiar with, then listen to it in the car. Hear a difference? If you don't, keep going till you do


Also, there is very little surfaces to reflect sound. Everything in the cab is either wood or carpet covered wood. It's like I have a mobile studio.


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> Also, there is very little surfaces to reflect sound. Everything in the cab is either wood or carpet covered wood. It's like I have a mobile studio.


Did you remove all the glass? If not you have reflections!


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

Must have taken them all out


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



garysummers said:


> Did you remove all the glass? If not you have reflections!


I do have lots of glass. The glass forms about 90 degree angle in the corners. The drivers are located away from the corners and at about a 30 degree angle so the dispersion pattern radiates into the cab, and there is not much for the sound to directly bounce off of. It's like a have a pair of bookshelf speakers in the corners of my rectangular cab.


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

I remember you from T.H.E. show. Don't you have 12" midbasses in your front ceiling?


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> I do have lots of glass. The glass forms about 90 degree angle in the corners. The drivers are located away from the corners and at about a 30 degree angle so the dispersion pattern radiates into the cab, and there is not much for the sound to directly bounce off of. It's like a have a pair of bookshelf speakers in the corners of my rectangular cab.


Sound reaches out sideways and around to the back of the speaker in the power responce below bimming. There's reflections. No way around it . The sound goes all around the speaker in all directions even behind it if it can.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



rawdawg said:


> I remember you from T.H.E. show. Don't you have 12" midbasses in your front ceiling?


Yes that's me. I got rid of the 12's between the seats. The 10" mid basses are in the front ceiling. 15" above drivers and passenger's heads. I got tuning help from sqnut regarding crossover frequencies and time alignment.

The system sounds so much more coherent with the phasing issues fixed.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

i know it's early in 2016, but this is the post of the year. from butt hurt, to no reflections, it has all that i need for entertainment this weekend.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



jtaudioacc said:


> i know it's early in 2016, but this is the post of the year. from butt hurt, to no reflections, it has all that i need for entertainment this weekend.


Don't misquote me. I didn't say there were no reflections. I said that there were not many. There's a big difference.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> With all due respect, where would the reflected energy come from?


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> Don't misquote me. I didn't say there were no reflections. I said that there were not many. There's a big difference.


never quoted anyone. there's a big difference.


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> If you were interested, Patrick, I would like you to give a listen to my van. I have listened to Jon's van and I think my system is 3 to 4 leagues ahead of his, and mine is not yet finished. However, I know that preferences are subjective. My system compared to Jon's has far greater dynamics and impact. It sounds more live. With the magic bus, every CD that is played sounds good. My system shows dramatic differences in the quality of the recordings. A poor recording will be revealed, while a quality CD will sound phenomenal. The mid-bass punch actually beats you in the chest if you turn the knob far enough to the right.
> 
> 
> Most who audition my van say several things:
> ...


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



oabeieo said:


> Sound reaches out sideways and around to the back of the speaker in the power responce below bimming. There's reflections. No way around it . The sound goes all around the speaker in all directions even behind it if it can.


I must be mistaken. I thought that the sound dispersion pattern was sort of like a funnel, starting from the source and radiating outward from there?

Tweeters being more narrow or directional. And getting more narrow with higher volume as they get close to beaming?


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

/\ /\ that exact same face...was like my own. Lol


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



ca90ss said:


>


That's a really cool image.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> I must be mistaken. I thought that the sound dispersion pattern was sort of like a funnel, starting from the source and radiating outward from there?
> 
> Tweeters being more narrow or directional. And getting more narrow with higher volume as they get close to beaming?


3k is about 2.65" long so a one inch some crossed at let's say 3k is already close to bimming. It's diffrent for a 15" or a 6.5" where it's entire oactaves away from bimming. 

That's why a tweeter is a dome. The dome radiates in all the directions of the dome. Hence helping the off axis responce. If a tweeter flat it would be extremely directional like a amt tweeter.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



oabeieo said:


> 3k is about 2.65" long so a one inch some crossed at let's say 3k is already close to bimming. It's diffrent for a 15" or a 6.5" where it's entire oactaves away from bimming.
> 
> That's why a tweeter is a dome. The dome radiates in all the directions of the dome. Hence helping the off axis responce. If a tweeter flat it would be extremely directional like a amt tweeter.


Nonetheless, there is way less things for the sound to bounce off in my cab. Less reflections in my cab than most vehicles. 

No center console, no glove box, no dash board, less angles, less reflective surfaces, ( the glass surfaces that I have are positioned out of the main radiation pattern of mid and high frequencies ). 

There is no space behind occupants ( basically a particleboard wall which will be covered in carpet at some point ). I think that this gives a tremendous advantage in reducing reflected sounds. 

Which is why I think that Time Alignment in my case has a far greater impact to sound quality vs frequency matching than most vehicles would.

Maybe I am wrong, and if I am, I could not even fathom having the system sounding more "live" than it already does.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*






i was listening with my sennheisers and this definitely is the most realistic system ever.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*




sqnut said:


> The reflections would come from the car. Even with the speakers close to you and on axis, sound would still get reflected off all the surfaces in the car. Below the beaming frequency, all speakers are omni directional they are radiating sound in ALL directions, now what you're hearing is the sum of direct and reflected energy. Furthermore no car will sound awesome without a ton of eq as I mentioned.
> 
> If you have a 2ch at home, close your eyes and listen to a track you are very familiar with, then listen to it in the car. Hear a difference? If you don't, keep going till you do











A speaker in a sealed box will radiate in all directions when the wavelengths are larger than the loudspeaker. For instance, here's a measurement of a Scanspeak 10F that Erin did. You can see that it radiates in all directions below 2000hz.










Here's the speakers in my car. I'm able to eliminate 95% of the sound that's radiated to the left, right, top and bottom.

This is the future - go listen to a Beolab 90.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*




High Resolution Audio said:


> Jon spent countless hours upon hours with fabrication, treatments, and tuning. He is an amazing guy, very humble and he's a most incredible fabricator. He knows frequencies and the technical side of things. His system is amazingly quiet, with no hums or hissing noise. With all the time and effort spent on his bus, I had an expectation to be blown away with the sound. There is no denying his skills with fabrication, integration, and tuning.
> Toted as the "World's best mobile sound system" by Absolute Sound magazine, I was expecting his system to be dramatically better than mine. Flying from Boston to California, mainly to audition the bus at The Show in Newport Beach.
> 
> He graciously allowed me to spend an hour in the bus by myself and I played a multitude of CD's that I brought with me as he was getting ready for the days events. To be the system was dull and lifeless. But a lot of audiophiles like that type of system. To be honest, 95% of the systems at THE Show Newport sounded " dull and lifeless " to me. Very few systems really got me excited.
> Of the 5% that were impressive to me, they were mainly the the systems from Europe. GamuT Audio for one, which used Scan speak drivers. They advertise " Alive and Dynamic" and it's true. This is the type of system that I prefer.


This is one of the conundrums of being an audiophile. Really low distortion systems can sound kinda boring.

Art Welter over at diyaudio did a fairly good study on this. Basically he built some low distortion subs, but noticed they didn't sound as good as the higher distortion subs he had before.

Anecdotally, here's a couple of times I've noticed this myself:

1) I saw Nine Inch Nails on an L'Acoustic system here in San Diego. It's the first time I've heard a concert that had real imaging. The system sounded fantastic. But...
It was kinda boring. I found myself yawning halfway through the set. I preferred the 'grungey' sound of Nine Inch Nails over Cerwin Vega horns, like I remembered in the 1990s.

2) I've seen Excision a couple of times. I played Excision on Jon's bus, because I think the bass in his bus is amazing. But the presentation was kinda lifeless.

I think it's the lack of distortion. In concert, *everything* is distorting. The speakers are pushed to their limits, your hearing system is at it's limits, etc. It's just not the same as listening on a low distortion stereo.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



Patrick Bateman said:


> A speaker in a sealed box will radiate in all directions when the wavelengths are larger than the loudspeaker. For instance, here's a measurement of a Scanspeak 10F that Erin did. You can see that it radiates in all directions below 2000hz.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who said eliminating reflections is the holy grail? The only audible effect of reflections is to increase the perceived loudness of the ~500hz+ range, something easily cured with an eq.......sure controlling directivity is one way to tackle reflections but the flip side imho is that it exaggerates the head in vice syndrome.


----------



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*




sqnut said:


> Who said eliminating reflections is the holy grail? The only audible effect of reflections is to increase the perceived loudness of the ~500hz+ range, something easily cured with an eq.......sure controlling directivity is one way to tackle reflections but the flip side imho is that it exaggerates the head in vice syndrome.


The founder of the forum used to have it in his sig. The room is the biggest problem in sound reproduction.

Here's a quote from Stereophile:

earfluff and eyecandy Â« a very irregularly-updated blog on random topics

_"The question I’ve been asked at every CES more often than any other is “Which sound system impressed you the most?” It’s a question that’s often difficult to answer. Typically, I’ve been impressed by several systems, often for different reasons, and it’s hard to say which was “the best.” That is, except at CES 2016. This time, I had no trouble answering this question: the BeoLab 90. The sound was utterly natural, effortless, with outstanding soundstage and imaging."_

Here's another review:

_"“So how did the BeoLab 90 make us feel? When we closed our eyes in Bang & Olufsen’s special listening room, the pair of master reference speakers (#2 and #3 ever made)—along with the room—seemed to vanish the instant a song played. We weren’t listening to sound emanating from two specific points; instead, the Weeknd was singing his heart out right in front of us. Benny Goodman’s band performed an intimate set, and you could picture where each musician was sitting. The BeoLab 90’s ability to create such a lifelike three-dimensional sound stage is unparalleled when you’re sitting in the sweet spot. It certainly brings up the question of whether a speaker can be “too” good for the music—some now-classic albums weren’t necessarily well-recorded and mastered (think of when the Rolling Stones turned the basement of a rented French mansion into a makeshift studio slash drug den). But when all the variables align perfectly, the music engulfs listeners entirely and hits the guts. The result of such incredible technology and engineering happens to be a very visceral human experience.”_

IMHO, eliminating the effect of the room is hugely important.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



jtaudioacc said:


> i was listening with my sennheisers and this definitely is the most realistic system ever.


LOL. Funny. That recording was done before sqnut gave me crossover frequencies and time alignment. Tons of background humming noise due to tube pre-amp. Before time aligning subs too!

Here is a better clip of Ron Tutt at about 115 DB while driving. after sqnut's tuning tips. Recorded with just an I-Phone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggkwZnZXo-c


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



Patrick Bateman said:


> The founder of the forum used to have it in his sig. The room is the biggest problem in sound reproduction.
> 
> Here's a quote from Stereophile:
> 
> ...


So if the room is such a huge factor then logically we should not be able to recreate a true 2ch experience in a car and yet you've heard and will continue to hear truly, blow me away cars where if you listen with your eyes closed, you're actually hearing a proper 2ch.......reflections affect perceived loudness, define hard boundaries and HF reflections make your image a little fuzzy. IMHO use the eq for the first and a dash mat + some basic treatment to reduce the 8khz+ range by even 10-15% and you're done worrying about reflections and the room. The car will never sound as big as a recording made the Royal Albert Hall, for that matter neither will your 2ch in a proper room.....the real magic is in getting the timing and response right.......based on what you're hearing.


----------



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*




sqnut said:


> So if the room is such a huge factor then logically we should not be able to recreate a true 2ch experience in a car and yet you've heard and will continue to hear truly, blow me away cars where if you listen with your eyes closed, you're actually hearing a proper 2ch.......reflections affect perceived loudness, define hard boundaries and HF reflections make your image a little fuzzy. IMHO use the eq for the first and a dash mat + some basic treatment to reduce the 8khz+ range by even 10-15% and you're done worrying about reflections and the room. The car will never sound as big as a recording made the Royal Albert Hall, for that matter neither will your 2ch in a proper room.....the real magic is in getting the timing and response right.......based on what you're hearing.


If you don't think the room is a problem, that's cool

Eliminating the effect of the room has always been at the heart of all of my projects. J Gordon Holt published a great article on this, called "why hifi experts disagree." In a nutshell, different things are important to different people.


----------



## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



sqnut said:


> So if the room is such a huge factor then logically we should not be able to recreate a true 2ch experience in a car and yet you've heard and will continue to hear truly, blow me away cars where if you listen with your eyes closed, you're actually hearing a proper 2ch.......reflections affect perceived loudness, define hard boundaries and HF reflections make your image a little fuzzy. IMHO use the eq for the first and a dash mat + some basic treatment to reduce the 8khz+ range by even 10-15% and you're done worrying about reflections and the room. The car will never sound as big as a recording made the Royal Albert Hall, for that matter neither will your 2ch in a proper room.....the real magic is in getting the timing and response right.......based on what you're hearing.


Pretty sure that Patrick is not attempting or even suggestion that _all_ reflections are eliminated. The attempt is to mitigate the very near reflections, that cause so many problems when you mount speakers next to hard boundaries, with pattern control.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



Orion525iT said:


> Pretty sure that Patrick is not attempting or even suggestion that _all_ reflections are eliminated. The attempt is to mitigate the very near reflections, that cause so many problems when you mount speakers next to hard boundaries, with pattern control.


Sometimes we overthink things a bit, that's all I'm saying.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



Patrick Bateman said:


> This is one of the conundrums of being an audiophile. Really low distortion systems can sound kinda boring.
> 
> Art Welter over at diyaudio did a fairly good study on this. Basically he built some low distortion subs, but noticed they didn't sound as good as the higher distortion subs he had before.
> 
> ...


I never heard of Excision before, but I had to make a demo video for you Patrick. They are similar to Skrillex, which my Girlfriend's son saw in concert. He said that the experience in the truck was way better than the concert. 
Anyhow, Excision in my truck would floor you. If you have a good set of headphones take a listen and tell me what you think. The recording was done with just an I-Phone, but in person it was one hell of an experience. Make sure you click 720P.


https://youtu.be/D7maKZjNPZ4


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

are you seriously still trying to give demos over youtube with phone recordings? smh


----------



## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> I never heard of Excision before, but I had to make a demo video for you Patrick. They are similar to Skrillex, which my Girlfriend's son saw in concert. He said that the experience in the truck was way better than the concert.
> Anyhow, Excision in my truck would floor you. If you have a good set of headphones take a listen and tell me what you think. The recording was done with just an I-Phone, but in person it was one hell of an experience. Make sure you click 720P.
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/D7maKZjNPZ4


thread closed, high res just dropped the mic...


----------



## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

Lololololo lololololo


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

Wow! That sounded like transformers having sex.
I watched the entire thing but there was no music, am I missing something


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



oabeieo said:


> Wow! That sounded like transformers having sex.


I guess that's what some of the younger crowds and Patrick Bateman listen to, lol.


----------



## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> I never heard of Excision before, but I had to make a demo video for you Patrick. They are similar to Skrillex, which my Girlfriend's son saw in concert. He said that the experience in the truck was way better than the concert.
> Anyhow, Excision in my truck would floor you. If you have a good set of headphones take a listen and tell me what you think. The recording was done with just an I-Phone, but in person it was one hell of an experience. Make sure you click 720P.
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/D7maKZjNPZ4


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



MacLeod said:


>


LMAO


----------



## Dalton (Feb 6, 2016)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



ErinH said:


> LMAO


Nobody ever wins a fight.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



Patrick Bateman said:


> If you don't think the room is a problem, that's cool
> 
> Eliminating the effect of the room has always been at the heart of all of my projects. J Gordon Holt published a great article on this, called "why hifi experts disagree." In a nutshell, different things are important to different people.


Room is a problem, but different people process roon reflections differently.
What sounds hollow for one sounds pretty dumped to another.

Any horn or waveguide is reflection as well but much more complicated one.


----------



## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

"I want you be nice, until it's time to not be nice"
HAHAHA HAHA HA


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



MacLeod said:


>


 This is garbage...
Is there anyone who actually call it music?
I`d rather listen to pink noise.


----------



## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

Damnit, now I'm phrasing stuff from Roadhouse now! Lol


----------



## Dalton (Feb 6, 2016)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

All you have to do is follow three simple rules. One, never underestimate your opponent. Expect the unexpected. Two, take it outside. Never start anything inside the bar unless it's absolutely necessary. And three, be nice.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



Victor_inox said:


> This is garbage...
> Is there anyone who actually call it music?
> I`d rather listen to pink noise.


I think it's called "DUBSTEP"


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

wow.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

Hi res . Can you post up images of said van? Just curious

I mean , it's in the best car I have ever heard thread. Let's see it !


----------



## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

Pain don't hurt.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



Dalton said:


> Nobody ever wins a fight.



You're too stupid to have a good time!


----------



## Dalton (Feb 6, 2016)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

It seems everywhere I go, I hear that same joke.


----------



## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



oabeieo said:


> Hi res . Can you post up images of said van?


I too would like to see some install pics, please.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



oabeieo said:


> Hi res . Can you post up images of said van? Just curious
> 
> I mean , it's in the best car I have ever heard thread. Let's see it !


Here is one quick pic.

And a link to the build log:


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...58-1990-gmc-ps6500-build-log-restoration.html


.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

sub'd


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> Here is one quick pic.
> 
> And a link to the build log:
> 
> ...


That looks like it has the potential to be magical.


----------



## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> That looks like it has the potential to be magical.


already 4-5 levels above magical.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> That looks like it has the potential to be magical.


I wish that I knew more about tuning. I've taken the system as far as I can. sqnut has made it beyond my wildest dreams by giving me Time alignment figures and crossover Frequencies. 

To me the system sounds incredible. But there is no EQ at all. A boost at 31.5 with the amps is all. 

I have no idea what my Frequency Response curve looks like now. 

It would be awesome to have the system tuned by someone that really knows what they are doing, as my skills are lacking. 

We all did it by ear years ago.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> Here is one quick pic.
> 
> And a link to the build log:
> 
> ...


It looks better than I immagined. 
I bet that turn table skips a bit driving. Not my choice for speaker locations , and I would carpet that metal up or something. But it does have potential from the looks of it . Have you thought about putting some better equipment in there and finishing it up? Did I see sundown midbass up top? 
Not too shabby ,....


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



oabeieo said:


> It looks better than I immagined.
> I bet that turn table skips a bit driving. Not my choice for speaker locations , and I would carpet that metal up or something. But it does have potential from the looks of it . Have you thought about putting some better equipment in there and finishing it up? Did I see sundown midbass up top?
> Not too shabby ,....


I can only use the turntable when parked. The whole interior will be deadened and carpeted. 34" motorized flat screen will fold down from the ceiling and lie in front of the windshield.

Almost all the equipment is old school and will stay that way in this truck. Boston Acoustics from the 1990's era.

The new truck will have all new school components.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> I can only use the turntable when parked. The whole interior will be deadened and carpeted. 34" motorized flat screen will fold down from the ceiling and lie in front of the windshield.
> 
> Almost all the equipment is old school and will stay that way in this truck. Boston Acoustics from the 1990's era.
> 
> The new truck will have all new school components.


You changed out from a dexp99 to a old alpine 1bitdac . Eek!!!


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



oabeieo said:


> You changed out from a dexp99 to a old alpine 1bitdac . Eek!!!


I will be changing the Alpine 9835 to an Alpine DVI 9990 and PXI H990 processor.


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> I will be changing the Alpine 9835 to an Alpine DVI 9990 and PXI H990 processor.


From where are you going to obtain an H990?


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I got rid of the 12" subs. 

The 15" subs now have one JL 600/1 v3 on each and play in stereo. They are Time Aligned and play 20 - 60 Hz

The 10" mid-basses play from 60-300 and I just threw a JL Audio 1000/1 v2 on one of them to see how I like it. I like it much better the PPI. Much more punch. Will be ordering another 1000/1. They are now time aligned. 

I think that the JL amp only plays up to 250 Htz, so the Mid-basses will play 60 - 250 htz.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> From where are you going to obtain an H990?


I bought the monitor, head unit and processor from a forum member a couple of years ago. Almost mint condition. I lucked out. Planning on installing it in this build. If I can get the software working.....lol


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

Jon's bus uses the same F1 gear. Better be careful, otherwise your system may sound dull and lifeless as well.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



ErinH said:


> Jon's bus uses the same F1 gear. Better be careful, otherwise your system may sound dull and lifeless as well.


I like to listen to my music at just under 100 Decibels and I like to have it pin me back against the seat when it does. Forgive me for being hyper critical. It has to be clean and distortion free when it does!


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> I like to listen to my music at just under 100 Decibels and I like to have it pin me back against the seat when it does. Forgive me for being hyper critical. It has to be clean and distortion free when it does!


Dosent the un equalized peaks just bug the crap out of you tho??? 



ErinH said:


> Jon's bus uses the same F1 gear. Better be careful, otherwise your system may sound dull and lifeless as well.


Lol.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



oabeieo said:


> Dosent the un equalized peaks just bug the crap out of you tho???
> 
> 
> Lol.


Maybe if I heard the before and after and I could compare the two, then I could not go back? In other words, I have no idea what I am missing. I guess I have to break down and get a microphone and REW. But that wont do me any good until I get the F#1 system up and running, so that I can do something about it. I have to have my computer genius brother-in-law figure out how to get the software going. I strongly dislike PC's.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> Maybe if I heard the before and after and I could compare the two, then I could not go back? In other words, I have no idea what I am missing. I guess I have to break down and get a microphone and REW. But that wont do me any good until I get the F#1 system up and running, so that I can do something about it. I have to have my computer genius brother-in-law figure out how to get the software going. I strongly dislike PC's.


Well a peak in a speaker will severely limit its performance. That is because once that peak band is maxed out the rest of the pass band is playing rather quietly. So when you crank it up with no eq, tho it may sound loud and sharp, the loudness only comes from a few diffrent frequencies. Not saying peaks can sound bad but they usually do.


----------



## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



fourthmeal said:


> thanks dude, don't leave or hold back what you want to say, people DO appreciate it.


 What he said, x 100 !


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



oabeieo said:


> Well a peak in a speaker will severely limit its performance. That is because once that peak band is maxed out the rest of the pass band is playing rather quietly. So when you crank it up with no eq, tho it may sound loud and sharp, the loudness only comes from a few diffrent frequencies. Not saying peaks can sound bad but they usually do.


Boston Acoustics Pro Series Drivers were specifically designed to have a perfectly flat frequency response. The first and second generations came with a matched set of tweeters that were numbered. With that being said, the only peaks I would have would be from the "room acoustics". 

I guess what I am saying is that I would have to be taught what to listen for.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> Boston Acoustics Pro Series Drivers were specifically designed to have a perfectly flat frequency response. The first and second generations came with a matched set of tweeters that were numbered. With that being said, the only peaks I would have would be from the "room acoustics".
> 
> I guess what I am saying is that I would have to be taught what to listen for.


Well, I have a set of audax speaker that are arguably one of the flattest as well and there peaky. The peak comes from the speaker, enclosure, room, distance to listener, a whole bunch of stuff. Unless you listen anechoecly , there's peaks. Dosent that one note that may make your midbass stop from sounding garbled or your tweet from sounding harsh or you mid to be too in your face. It's mostly a car audio problem , but still a problem


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> Boston Acoustics Pro Series Drivers were specifically designed to have a perfectly flat frequency response. The first and second generations came with a matched set of tweeters that were numbered. With that being said, the only peaks I would have would be from the "room acoustics".
> 
> I guess what I am saying is that I would have to be taught what to listen for.


Go look at Andys near field/far (?) Field measurements in a car. You have so much to learn, yet you claim your car sounds better than the magic bus with NO eq. I'm sorry but that's probably physically impossible in a car. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

That moment when you realize, with great clarity, who is drinking the water, and who is not.


----------



## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

From my first hand impression of the magic bus.... it wasn't overly dynamic, was kinda flat and during certain passages I could hear the midrange start to strain.... but even after all of that being said- the magic bus is a labor of love and an example of hundreds of hours of tuning ..... not too many people are willing to go to those lengths.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> Maybe if I heard the before and after and I could compare the two, then I could not go back? In other words, I have no idea what I am missing.


it's kinda like a retina display - once you see it, there's no unseeing it.

...or like when we went from non-hd to hd televisions years ago.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



SkizeR said:


> Go look at Andys near field/far (?) Field measurements in a car. You have so much to learn, yet you claim your car sounds better than the magic bus with NO eq. I'm sorry but that's probably physically impossible in a car.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


In my opinion, the system in my Van sounds different (imo better) than the system in my house and better / different than most home systems that I have heard. 

There is a "live" quality that hard to quantify with words. I'll give it my best try. The system in my Van sounds as if you were sitting right in front of people playing instruments. As if you were hearing the noise coming directly from a drum set, for instance, right in front of you.

Not like most systems that throw a stage and recreate in front of you an illusion of instruments and musicians laid out in front of you with a depth and left to right layout. 

I guess what makes my system different is that you are almost right in the music itself, if that makes any sense. Kind of like you were listening to headphones, maybe? 

Many people and are not use to hearing music this way. And at first, I preferred my home system to my Van's. But after tweaking it for the last year or so, and tuning it with help from sqnut, It has gotten so good, that I only prefer listening to music in the Van.

To me, my home system and any other sound system that I listen to now seems like it's just missing something. At first, I thought it may be that I have been listening this way so long, that now I am accustomed to hearing music this way. And that it is just what I am use to now. 

But everyone else who listens to the Van says that they have never heard a system that sounds like mine does. It is different. And, I'm guessing that some may prefer to not be "in the music" but would rather be "away" and enjoying it from a distance. 

And right now with practically no EQ it sounds amazing. It's kind of like you are right there sitting on the front edge of the stage. In with the musicians. Or at a front row at a concert. 

The last two people to audition the van both said,

" I have not heard anything like that before." 73 year old man and 58 year old man. They both said "it takes me back to the day."

At least I know it is different. Whether or not one would consider it better, that is subjective. I would gladly extend out an open invitation for anyone reading these words who would like to experience something different, and unique, to go back to the 1990's when Sound Quality was at its peak and experience the "Time Machine".


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> In my opinion, the system in my Van sounds different (imo better) than the system in my house and better / different than most home systems that I have heard.
> 
> There is a "live" quality that hard to quantify with words. I'll give it my best try. The system in my Van sounds as if you were sitting right in front of people playing instruments. As if you were hearing the noise coming directly from a drum set, for instance, right in front of you.
> 
> ...


You just discribed every set up with time alignment.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



DDfusion said:


> You just discribed every set up with time alignment.


I wont need time alignment when I put the bench listener's seat in and adjust aim all the speakers to the average ear height above the center of that seat. 

And with or without time alignment, my system still sounds different than any other system out there.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



ErinH said:


> Jon's bus uses the same F1 gear. Better be careful, otherwise your system may sound dull and lifeless as well.


Gee Wiz, I am running two H990's.
Mine must be twice as dull and lifeless!


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



garysummers said:


> Gee Wiz, I am running two H990's.
> Mine must be twice as dull and lifeless!


I have a second H990 as a back up. But I wont be needing it unless the first one craps out. 

Jon told me about your car. I missed the small informal Get Together in Scottsdale Last year. I was planning on attending, but one of the F#1 systems came up for sale and I had to purchase it, so that left me unable to afford the Round Trip flight from Boston. 

Jon also told me that you prefer your system over his and he giggled when he said it. lol He mentioned that I had to demo your system. He really respects your work.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

You're in Boston? I travel to Andover now and again. I'd like to grab a demo sometime if you're cool with that.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



ErinH said:


> You're in Boston? I travel to Andover now and again. I'd like to grab a demo sometime if you're cool with that.


I live on the Cape about 2 hours drive from Boston. But if you are going to Andover, I would't mind meeting 1/2 way or something like that. I would be more than happy to give you a demo. I really would like to share this system with someone that can appreciate and or critique it.


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> I wont need time alignment when I put the bench listener's seat in and adjust aim all the speakers to the average ear height above the center of that seat.
> 
> And with or without time alignment, my system still sounds different than any other system out there.


Send me what you're smoking on.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



Dalton said:


> All you have to do is follow three simple rules. One, never underestimate your opponent. Expect the unexpected. Two, take it outside. Never start anything inside the bar unless it's absolutely necessary. And three, be nice.


You don't have disagreements and arguments in your family? Where are you'll from? Mars? At the end of the day after we are done arguing with each other, we are still family. All of us have been around here for 7-10 years and more and at the end of the day we respect and and give each other space to vent now and then. 

It's funny that in your fourth post on the forum, you're preaching to us on forum etiquette.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



DDfusion said:


> Send me what you're smoking on.


My system sounds different. Everyone that has heard it has said so. Here is a quote from Turbo5upra who is an Iasca Judge who listened to my truck a few months ago before I made several changes: 

"Having listened to Benny's and your systems... Benny's was detailed and technical but slightly laid back... Yours was fun and new- it had some staging and tonal issues but was new and unusual for me. The stage height started above the dash and went up- which is backwards of what I typically run into. I could see yours being a very solid performer given the space you have to work with but in my personal opinion it is far too complicated at the moment- simplify and regroup and I feel you will be miles ahead in no time at all."

Since his review, some of the changes I have made are: Got rid of all my EQ , got rid of the 12's, Changed amps, added amps, Changed crossover frequencies, and Time aligned everything to the drivers seat. 

He did say that it was "new and unusual". "fun and new" In other words different. "New" means something existing for the first time. He used that term twice in his description. I got the stuff I'm smoking from Brian, It's good stuff, man!


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> My system sounds different. Everyone that has heard it has said so. Here is a quote from Turbo5upra who is an Iasca Judge who listened to my truck a few months ago before I made several changes:
> 
> "Having listened to Benny's and your systems... Benny's was detailed and technical but slightly laid back... Yours was fun and new- it had some staging and tonal issues but was new and unusual for me. The stage height started above the dash and went up- which is backwards of what I typically run into. I could see yours being a very solid performer given the space you have to work with but in my personal opinion it is far too complicated at the moment- simplify and regroup and I feel you will be miles ahead in no time at all."
> 
> He did say that it was "new and unusual". "fun and new" In other words different. "New" means something existing for the first time. He used that term twice in his description. I got the stuff I'm smoking from Brian, It's good stuff, man!


With that much midbass in your face, the size of the cab, the height of the dash mids. Take that and general knowledge that most systems can be set up with no eq to be "listenable " heck even my horns with no eq and almost no gain are "listenable" . I get what your sayin. I can tune my system to sound good with no eq and just level setting and some bass/treble controls. it's not a fact that no one believe you that it sounds good or not. But , do you really think it's at the level of Gary's car? Or some of these other rides.


----------



## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



sqnut said:


> You don't have disagreements and arguments in your family? Where are you'll from? Mars? At the end of the day after we are done arguing with each other, we are still family. All of us have been around here for 7-10 years and more and at the end of the day we respect and and give each other space to vent now and then.
> 
> It's funny that in your fourth post on the forum, you're preaching to us on forum etiquette.


It's a quote from a movie..... he was speaking in true "Dalton " form.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



oabeieo said:


> With that much midbass in your face, the size of the cab, the height of the dash mids. Take that and general knowledge that most systems can be set up with no eq to be "listenable " heck even my horns with no eq and almost no gain are "listenable" . I get what your sayin. I can tune my system to sound good with no eq and just level setting and some bass/treble controls. it's not a fact that no one believe you that it sounds good or not. But , do you really think it's at the level of Gary's car? Or some of these other rides.


I have not yet listened to Gary's car. With his extensive knowledge in sound and engineering, I would expect it to be mind-blowing. But I felt the same way when I read about Jon's van. 

I have heard sound systems from all over the world. I have created something truly unique and different. I believe this system has the potential to be as famous as the Buick Grand National, or Earl Zaussmer's Red BMW. Once I get the Time Machine sound deadened, The F#1 system installed and tuned, and the 34" flat screen in there it will be the "funnest" mobile entertainment center ever built. 

I have heard one system that I got in to listen and didn't want to get out. It was the girlfriend's car of forum member, Mike "Goodstuff" who installed a system in her Subaru? I think. 

I liked that system better than mine, but it was totally different. It sounded different, it staged different, there was a clarity and micro-detail that my vehicle does not have. But it was also made with all modern components and technology. 

So to answer your question, the Time Machine might not be a serious sound quality contender that would win in a competition. But it is definitively unique and different and makes for a listening experience that is fun as hell.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



DDfusion said:


> Send me what you're smoking on.


$30 for 1/8OZ


----------



## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

I got 5 on it...


----------



## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> I wont need time alignment when I put the bench listener's seat in and adjust aim all the speakers to the average ear height above the center of that seat.


Unless every one of those speakers is exactly the same distance from the listener's ears, you will still need time alignment. If the mid-tweeter arrangement even for a single channel has different distances, you WILL have a need for time alignment. There simply is no getting around that.

And then there's those big midbasses hanging 15" above your head... no way you're going to align those without some processing, my friend...



High Resolution Audio said:


> And with or without time alignment, my system still sounds different than any other system out there.


This is most certainly true.


----------



## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> I believe this system has the potential to be as famous as the Buick Grand National, or Earl Zaussmer's Red BMW.


with how Earl feel's about Jon's van, your system as it stands might be 8-9 levels above Earl's BMW.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



XSIV SPL said:


> Unless every one of those speakers is exactly the same distance from the listener's ears, you will still need time alignment. If the mid-tweeter arrangement even for a single channel has different distances, you WILL have a need for time alignment. There simply is no getting around that.
> 
> And then there's those big midbasses hanging 15" above your head... no way you're going to align those without some processing, my friend...
> 
> ...


All the drivers will be the exact same distance from the listener's ears. Didn't you read that. They will all be aimed at the same location. I guess the lower frequencies may have to be delayed somewhat. The mid-basses and subs, I presume.


----------



## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



sqnut said:


> You don't have disagreements and arguments in your family? Where are you'll from? Mars? At the end of the day after we are done arguing with each other, we are still family. All of us have been around here for 7-10 years and more and at the end of the day we respect and and give each other space to vent now and then.
> 
> It's funny that in your fourth post on the forum, you're preaching to us on forum etiquette.


https://youtu.be/-QJsljIDKkk


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



jtaudioacc said:


> with how Earl feel's about Jon's van, your system as it stands might be 8-9 levels above Earl's BMW.


Jon and Earl are very good friends. Jon introduced me to Earl at the Show in Newport. I had some good conversations with Earl. I'll leave it at that.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



jtaudioacc said:


> with how Earl feel's about Jon's van, your system as it stands might be 8-9 levels above Earl's BMW.


Earl's philosophy on sound was similar to mine. He wanted more of an "in your face" type of sound as opposed to the more laid back approach. I never had the privilege of listening to Earls BMW, but his philosophies for re-creating sound, for example, of using 15" subs in front of the listener, as opposed to behind, are congruent with mine.


----------



## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> I have heard sound systems from all over the world. I have created something truly unique and different. I believe this system has the potential to be as famous as the Buick Grand National, or Earl Zaussmer's Red BMW.


Go over to Richard Clark's forum and post this...

He'll shut you down in about 0.2 milliseconds... He's the best there's ever been... If you don't believe me, just ask him. 

(even though the GN was pretty much a turn-key when he bought it from Speakerworks)


----------



## Focused4door (Aug 15, 2015)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> My system sounds different. Everyone that has heard it has said so. Here is a quote from Turbo5upra who is an Iasca Judge who listened to my truck a few months ago before I made several changes:
> 
> "Having listened to Benny's and your systems... Benny's was detailed and technical but slightly laid back... Yours was fun and new- it had some staging and tonal issues but was new and unusual for me. The stage height started above the dash and went up- which is backwards of what I typically run into. I could see yours being a very solid performer given the space you have to work with but in my personal opinion it is far too complicated at the moment- simplify and regroup and I feel you will be miles ahead in no time at all."
> 
> ...


In the early 90's I got this "brilliant new idea" to put the midbass and subs in the ceiling, then somebody pointed out that it had been done before and showed me pictures. I never built such a setup, and never heard that particular vehicle. Highly likely they didn't have time alignment in that setup.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

The midbass above can work at that angle. Ears can't determine height as well and there is no dash for them to bounce off of before the listener, I like the up high midbass idea for that truck. I bet it puts you right next to the stage........speaker system


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



oabeieo said:


> The midbass above can work at that angle. Ears can't determine height as well and there is no dash for them to bounce off of before the listener, I like the up high midbass idea for that truck. I bet it puts you right next to the stage........speaker system


Did you have a change of heart? Yes it does. Right next to the stage speaker system. You got it. 

I'm going to use your Beyma's for my mid-basses in the new truck. Up high as well. Tweeter and mid-range up high above the windshield angling downward. I could have done it in this install, but wanted the mids and tweets right at ear level. .


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> Did you have a change of heart? Yes it does. Right next to the stage speaker system. You got it.
> 
> I'm going to use your Beyma's for my mid-basses in the new truck. Up high as well. Tweeter and mid-range up high above the windshield angling downward. I could have done it in this install, but wanted the mids and tweets right at ear level. .


If that's the effect your after you really do need a solid set of compression drivers. I'm thinking some 2"throat TADs or something hot. With a 25" jbl concert horn that drops to 300hz. 

Do it dood! Why not? If that's the sound your after **** it, do it right.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



oabeieo said:


> If that's the effect your after you really do need a solid set of compression drivers. I'm thinking some 2"throat TADs or something hot. With a 25" jbl concert horn that drops to 300hz.
> 
> Do it dood! Why not? If that's the sound your after **** it, do it right.


I do not even know what a compression driver is? Or what it does or what the benefits are. 

I bought the Flagship Scan Speak Tweeters for the new truck. I was going to stick with the Scan Speak for Midrange. I wanted to go pure SQ with the new truck. Get the Helix DSP pro. I'm not sure how to put together the new system, but I don't want a copy of the old one with new components. Maybe the Beyma's won't be the right fit for what I'm trying to achieve with the new truck?


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



oabeieo said:


> They will work fine . They are very nice sounding.
> 
> But you might go parts express , look at compression drivers , look at horns , all diffrent sizes and shapes. Google pics of concerts , look what there using. Find a set you like (go big) and hook that sh1t up. It will still be sq with a good compression driver and a good horn. But if you want a concert in your truck . You'll have to go big. Large format everything .


I have the concert experience in the Time Machine. It plays loud and clear full range up to about 115 DB + before it starts distorting. You can feel the mid bass punch you right in the chest as I have tripled + my power from 300 watts to 1000 this morning as a test. Getting a second one to power the other side in the next week or two.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



fourthmeal said:


> OK... I feel like this thread should be split by the mods or something. It has been thread-jacked to oblivion about talk of this _van_, and I feel like its almost trolling at this point.


Sorry, I will move this conversation over to my build log.


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...58-1990-gmc-ps6500-build-log-restoration.html


----------



## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



fourthmeal said:


> OK... I feel like this thread should be split by the mods or something. It has been thread-jacked to oblivion about talk of this _van_, and I feel like its almost trolling at this point.


Yep, but that's part of the entertainment value! 

Chill and enjoy!

I mean, seriously... This big ugly van is someone's dream-come-true... SO WHAT?

let him have his fun! I'm enjoying the read, personally...


----------



## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



fourthmeal said:


> OK... I feel like this thread should be split by the mods or something. It has been thread-jacked to oblivion about talk of this _van_, and I feel like its almost trolling at this point.


it looks like a duck, but amazingly, i don't think it's actually a duck. :laugh:


----------



## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

No I'm sure the van is cool, I mean if I had a van I'd make sure it was awesome. But I really was enjoying the spirit of the thread, not that which was hijacked. Make sense?


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



XSIV SPL said:


> Yep, but that's part of the entertainment value!
> 
> Chill and enjoy!
> 
> ...


That's the only reason I kept posting. He sincerely thinks this van is the hot ticket. I probably should have quit in respect to Andy n Gary. But it's fun. I don't think it's going to ruin there day.


----------



## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



jtaudioacc said:


> it looks like a duck, but amazingly, i don't think it's actually a duck. :laugh:





oabeieo said:


> That's the only reason I kept posting. He sincerely thinks this van is the hot ticket. I probably should have quit in respect to Andy n Gary. But it's fun. I don't think it's going to ruin there day.


Of course he thinks his van is the hot ticket... you probably did the same at an earlier time as well... he's also openly admitted to not really knowing what he's doing regarding tuning and TCR over the last 11 pages or so...

Don't you remember back when you first got excited about car audio and thought you possessed all the knowledge, and the right **** to be as "legendary" as some cars we've all heard of?

However, as time passes, the more we learn, the less we actually know...

This big ugly van is no different than your first (fill in the blank) system...

He's a bit proud, and may need some coaching, and I'm pretty sure this van needs lots of work before you or I might appreciate it, but it's what he has and he obviously thinks it's pretty special.

We shouldn't gather up and heap on him for his presumed ignorance, but reach out to him instead.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



MacLeod said:


> https://youtu.be/-QJsljIDKkk


I was talking to my wife about this and I got a withering look from her..."really Arun, you don't know Roadhouse?".....of course she's been fan girling over PS fan from Roadhouse and Point Break days.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*

I wouldn't be too hard on HRA, at the end of the day he's a nice guy.


----------



## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

All the sidetrack posts from the Gary Summers car thread has been moved here.

Old thread... http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...90-one-best-sounding-cars-ive-ever-heard.html


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

imjustjason said:


> All the sidetrack posts from the Gary Summers car thread has been moved here.
> 
> Old thread... http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...90-one-best-sounding-cars-ive-ever-heard.html


Thank you so much for fixing my mistake. My sincere apologies to any and all that I may have offended.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

1. I changed the front stage from on axis with my ears in the drivers seat to a point in the exact center of the cab against the back wall. Huge difference in staging and overall sense of realism. Stage depth is about 30 feet. 

2. Turned up tweeters and turned down mid-bass. Much more clarity and micro - detail. 

3. Adjusted crossovers slightly to get rid of nasal sounding female voice. Mid-basses were playing at 60 - 300 then 60 - 250 . Brought them down even further to 60 - 150.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



oabeieo said:


> With that much midbass in your face, the size of the cab, the height of the dash mids. Take that and general knowledge that most systems can be set up with no eq to be "listenable " heck even my horns with no eq and almost no gain are "listenable" . I get what your sayin. I can tune my system to sound good with no eq and just level setting and some bass/treble controls. it's not a fact that no one believe you that it sounds good or not. But , do you really think it's at the level of Gary's car? Or some of these other rides.


After the last few days improvements, I can guarantee that the Time Machine is at least the level of Gary's car. The two vehicles each may give a different experience, but if you are judging strictly based upon how close you can get to the live performance experience, the Time Machine will win hands down. Speakers disappear and its as if you were a live performance from the front row. Weather it be amplified or acoustic performance, depending on the recording. It must be due to the acoustics of the cab. Not many vehicles have this much free air space and perfect rectangular shape. 

I can also vouch that the Time Machine sounds more like listening to a live performance than 98+% of home Hi Fidelity systems. 
I've listened to hundreds of stereo systems at The Home Entertainment Show at Newport Beach and the New York Audio Show, from all over the world.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)




----------



## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

classic :laugh::laugh:


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

30 feet.. lol

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

You really can't believe what you are saying, you just can't....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

With the exception of the couple orchestras I've had the pleasure of listening to, every other live show gets loud and that about it. They sound like **** when it comes to what we actually strive for in sq car audio. 

So your assertion comparing your vehicle to a live performance is probably spot on. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

pocket5s said:


> With the exception of the couple orchestras I've had the pleasure of listening to, every other live show gets loud and that about it. They sound like **** when it comes to what we actually strive for in sq car audio.
> 
> So your assertion comparing your vehicle to a live performance is probably spot on.
> 
> ...



That's fantastic and sig worthy....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> if you are judging strictly based upon how close you can get to the live performance experience, the Time Machine will win hands down.


If that's the only criteria by which you judge I can guarantee my car is at least 10 levels above yours.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> 30 feet.. lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Track 14 of the IASCA disc. There is a drum set that sounds as if it were 30 feet in front of the listening position. The trumpet towards the left side seems as if it were 7 feet away. Piano on left side is about 20 feet. Trombone is about 12 feet away.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

chefhow said:


> You really can't believe what you are saying, you just can't....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Someone from this forum just needs to do one audition and post an honest review.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

pocket5s said:


> With the exception of the couple orchestras I've had the pleasure of listening to, every other live show gets loud and that about it. They sound like **** when it comes to what we actually strive for in sq car audio.
> 
> So your assertion comparing your vehicle to a live performance is probably spot on.
> 
> ...


The system sounds like you are in front of an orchestra live. Especially track 23 on the IASCA disc.


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Someone from this forum just needs to do one audition and post an honest review.



Bring it to College Station Texas this summer for an 8 judge run thru, it will be the most honest and unbiased review of your sound system you can have anywhere hands down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



ca90ss said:


> If that's the only criteria by which you judge I can guarantee my car is at least 10 levels above yours.


The reason being this sound system sounds so different is the vehicle that it is installed in. Have you heard any sound systems installed in a Step Van? The interior volume is huge, the ceiling height is huge, as you can stand up in the cab. In essence there is a pair of bookshelf speakers in the corners with the tweeters/midrange at ear level, with nothing but open space in between the listener and drivers. Of course this system is going to sound different than any other system installed in a car or pickup, or even a normal van. The interior of the cab is almost 7' wide, by 6' tall by 5' deep.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

chefhow said:


> Bring it to College Station Texas this summer for an 8 judge run thru, it will be the most honest and unbiased review of your sound system you can have anywhere hands down.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The vehicle gets 10 MPG Diesel. It would cost a fortune and take days of travel time. The truck is 26 years old. I use it for work every day. I would want to drive it that many miles. Maybe if I could trailer it, but then I would be worried about the electrical stock in the back. It would be cheaper to fly the judges to my location.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rton20s said:


>


I just want a little validation. There are so many doubters.


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> The reason being this sound system sounds so different is the vehicle that it is installed in. Have you heard any sound systems installed in a Step Van? The interior volume is huge, the ceiling height is huge, as you can stand up in the cab. In essence there is a pair of bookshelf speakers in the corners with the tweeters/midrange at ear level, with nothing but open space in between the listener and drivers. Of course this system is going to sound different than any other system installed in a car or pickup, or even a normal van. The interior of the cab is almost 7' wide, by 6' tall by 5' deep.


Yes, I'm familiar with the interior dimensions of step vans having driven them and having spent way too much time and money on the snap on truck. Unfortunately none of which had anything but a basic radio in them. Either way though, just because it sounds different doesn't mean it sounds better or even good. You like your stereo and that's really what it's all about but sitting here and trying to compare it to some of the best sounding cars out there is laughable.


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

The first minute of this video pretty much sums up why people have a hard time taking you seriously.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



ca90ss said:


> Yes, I'm familiar with the interior dimensions of step vans having driven them and having spent way too much time and money on the snap on truck. Unfortunately none of which had anything but a basic radio in them. Either way though, just because it sounds different doesn't mean it sounds better or even good. You like your stereo and that's really what it's all about but sitting here and trying to compare it to some of the best sounding cars out there is laughable.


I have spent about 4 1/2 years on this project, so far, and I have created something special and different. The sound is just plain unbelievable. I would like to share my passion with others who would be able to appreciate it. It seems as if no-one cares about music and sound anymore. 

I'm not trying to brag, and that video was hilarious. I am just trying to advertise. To pique interest. "Hype it up, they say."

Why do you think that it is laughable? What makes you doubt that the system in question is not one of the greatest ever put together? There is that possibility, right?


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> I have spent about 4 1/2 years on this project, so far, and I have created something special and different. The sound is just plain unbelievable. I would like to share my passion with others who would be able to appreciate it. It seems as if no-one cares about music and sound anymore.
> 
> I'm not trying to brag, and that video was hilarious. I am just trying to advertise. To pique interest. "Hype it up, they say."
> 
> Why do you think that it is laughable? What makes you doubt that the system in question is not one of the greatest ever put together? There is that possibility, right?


This is getting silly.
So you choose not to compete and validate your claims.
All that's missing from this scenario is big banner declaring it as the best ever.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

So we used to have to put up with the shameless self promotion of this...









Now the shameless promotion of this...


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

this is the type of install I'd love to listen to. weirder things have worked in ways the audio elite would hate to admit work.

I do agree that you should compete with a known knowegable judge, not to get **** on, which may happen, but to find out what the masses seem to like. for the record..what most on here like as "good sound" is boring and unengaging to me..but why fight it? its not worth it. remember, if it makes you happy, its great. if you want validation, go to some shows and give some demos. theres a vehicle called the magic bus that doesn't score very well but it sure sounds good..


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



High Resolution Audio said:


> Why do you think that it is laughable? What makes you doubt that the system in question is not one of the greatest ever put together? There is that possibility, right?


Sure, it's possible, it's also possible that if you rub my anus just right a genie will pop out and grant you 3 wishes. I'm really not trying to put you down but judging by some of your posts it seems you lack a lot of even the basic knowledge it takes to achieve a top tier system. There's nothing wrong with that, we're all here to learn and hell, there are people here who make me feel dumb on a daily basis. Best advice I can give is to spend less time posting and more time reading. There are a lot of very knowledgeable members here willing to share their expertise and given time there's no reason you couldn't have a system that can compete with the best, it's just highly doubtful that you've already achieved that level.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

pocket5s said:


> With the exception of the couple orchestras I've had the pleasure of listening to, every other live show gets loud and that about it. They sound like **** when it comes to what we actually strive for in sq car audio.
> 
> So your assertion comparing your vehicle to a live performance is probably spot on.
> 
> ...


fking savage :laugh:


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Track 14 of the IASCA disc. There is a drum set that sounds as if it were 30 feet in front of the listening position. The trumpet towards the left side seems as if it were 7 feet away. Piano on left side is about 20 feet. Trombone is about 12 feet away.


just like how my car was about 7 feet out each way.. got it 

(PS guys, mine reaches the barriers of the glass in terms of depth, width, and height  )


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

also guys, he has competed. or at least went to spectate. according to someone i trust, the van doesnt actually sound to bad. he said it might not score well, but it was fun to listen to. he is an iasca judge, but not sure if he was judging that day. maybe he can chime in


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Lycancatt said:


> this is the type of install I'd love to listen to. weirder things have worked in ways the audio elite would hate to admit work.
> 
> I do agree that you should compete with a known knowegable judge, not to get **** on, which may happen, but to find out what the masses seem to like. for the record..what most on here like as "good sound" is boring and unengaging to me..but why fight it? its not worth it. remember, if it makes you happy, its great. if you want validation, go to some shows and give some demos. theres a vehicle called the magic bus that doesn't score very well but it sure sounds good..


I've listened to the magic bus. One can describe it as smooth and buttery. Not engaging. That type of system seems to score well. I don't care for that type of sound.

My preference is more of an engaging, dynamic, lively, energetic, some notes can startle you, kind of experience. As if the drum set was in the same room with you. When you hear a piano, or saxophone, or trumpet, or guitar, it sounds like it is right there in front of you. But there is a fine balance that has to be achieved with some instruments such as horns or guitars that make it sound harsh if it is a hair too loud. Finding the level just under harshness is the tricky part. 

There are no shows in Massachusetts except SPL. Hardly any shows in the entire New England Region period. One SQ show in New York that takes 8 1/2 hours to drive there and 8 1/2 hours to drive back. I went to one show. Those guys like smooth and buttery. 

Other people don't know how to listen, anyhow. I've asked some people to give a listen and they are standing on the ground outside the vehicle. When I say that everything is timed to the drivers seat, they say, " I can hear it from here." 

Finding people that are knowledgeable about music reproduction are the ones that I would like to share my system with. Audiophiles, I guess. I even wouldn't mind being critiqued. That is how one learns.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

pocket5s said:


> With the exception of the couple orchestras I've had the pleasure of listening to, every other live show gets loud and that about it. They sound like **** when it comes to what we actually strive for in sq car audio.
> 
> So your assertion comparing your vehicle to a live performance is probably spot on.
> 
> ...


200% agree with that.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> also guys, he has competed. or at least went to spectate. according to someone i trust, the van doesnt actually sound to bad. he said it might not score well, but it was fun to listen to. he is an iasca judge, but not sure if he was judging that day. maybe he can chime in


The truck is totally different now. I scored 189. With the help from the judge, I learned that I had staging and tonality issues, which I fixed. But, back then everything sounded muddy and dull. Sqnut helped me clear those up with proper T/A settings. The system did not image, nor stage well at all. Aligning the speakers towards a center point on the back wall and T/A on the mid-basses and changing the subs to stereo by adding another amp and time aligning the subs as well all made vast improvements. 

Also switching the mid-range amp with the tweeter amps created a huge night and day difference. 

Lowering the crossover on the mid-bass fixed the tonality issues. I still haven't done any EQ.

Thank you, Nick for speaking up on my behalf. From some of the earlier comments, it seems like people thought I was a young kid with their first system that thought it was the **** and which actually sounds like garbage. 

Maybe they were just yanking my chain, and if so the got to me! lol

P.S. I also had the sub-woofer level set to 0. Normally it's set to +15. But I read in the IASCA rules, that the bass is not suppose to be overpowering.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> just like how my car was about 7 feet out each way.. got it
> 
> (PS guys, mine reaches the barriers of the glass in terms of depth, width, and height  )


What I'm talking about is the room that the recording was actually done in and how far the instruments were separated. In a studio recording, everything is done with the mixer. With a live recording, you can get a sense of space around which the instruments, how they were laid out and the size of the hall, or room, by the echos or reverberation.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

I'm lovin this thread. lol


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Victor_inox said:


> 200% agree with that.


I guess I wont be buying a tube pre-amp from you for my next build. Plus look at your post number . It's the sign of the devil. 6666


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

jtaudioacc said:


> I'm lovin this thread. lol


I love to provide entertainment. I'm so glad that you are here! Thanks for chiming in!


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I guess I wont be buying a tube pre-amp from you for my next build. Plus look at your post number . It's the sign of the devil. 6666


 I guess you wouldn`t. Your loss anyway, shows your character I guess. I wish I can keep post count that exact number. and it`s gone, damn it.
Or and to make it perfectly clear I never heard your bus, can`t comment on that. But life performance except for Jazz and classical sounds like ****, most of I being on at least. With exception of U2 2015 tour . Still same songs on Vinyl sounds light years better.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Victor_inox said:


> I guess you wouldn`t. Your loss anyway, shows your character I guess. I wish I can keep post count that exact number. and it`s gone, damn it.


Attack my character, are you learning that from Trump? That's fighting dirty.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Attack my character, are you learning that from Trump? That's fighting dirty.


dont play the victim.. he was agreeing with something that was very true. what does my post count say about me? (everyone, sign up here for your diyma post count horroscopes)


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Attack my character, are you learning that from Trump? That's fighting dirty.


 Me? i haven`t said anything bad about your bus, read it again.
Simply because I haven`t heard it. Life concerts mostly sounds like ****. that what I referred to.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Victor_inox said:


> I guess you wouldn`t. Your loss anyway, shows your character I guess. I wish I can keep post count that exact number. and it`s gone, damn it.
> Or and to make it perfectly clear I never heard your bus, can`t comment on that. But life performance except for Jazz and classical sounds like ****, most of I being on at least. With exception of U2 2015 tour . Still same songs on Vinyl sounds light years better.


U2 2015 ??????  I love the Music of U2, but most of their recording sound like doodoo. Thanks for the tip. What is the name of that particular recording, please?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Victor_inox said:


> Me? i haven`t said anything bad about your bus, read it again.
> Simply because I haven`t heard it. Life concerts mostly sounds like ****. that what I referred to.


You said this....."Your loss anyway, shows your character I guess."

But I will be buying a tube Pre-amp from you anyway.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> dont play the victim.. he was agreeing with something that was very true. what does my post count say about me? (everyone, sign up here for your diyma post count horroscopes)


Over 9000 posts. That says you love writing in this forum more than you like working on your build!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> You said this....."Your loss anyway, shows your character I guess."


how is that an attack? holy moly our country breeds the hell out of victim complex


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Over 9000 posts. That says you love writing in this forum more than you like working on your build!


ehh, 5 posts per day on average. thats not to much if you think about it. its just been years. the build, well you heard first hand that it only gets worked on on warm weekends. what about yours? you said yours has been in progress for 4.5 years? mine should actually look like a real install by 4.5 years


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> You said this....."Your loss anyway, shows your character I guess."


 If you base your desision based on previous post that exactly what it is, lack of character. See some of us unable to hold complete conversation in head, some need constant reminders. 
I say as I see it, always, not gonna tippy toe around to sell stuff I make for people who need it, making it if not profitable but sustainable.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> how is that an attack? holy moly our country breeds the hell out of victim complex


I was just joking, anyway. Get back to work on your build. It's only 15 degrees. Not too cold to be working on it. lol


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Victor_inox said:


> If you base your desision based on previous post that exactly what it is, lack of character. See some of us unable to hold complete conversation in head, some need constant reminders.
> I say as I see it, always, not gonna tippy toe around to sell stuff I make for people who need it, making it if not profitable but sustainable.


I was joking. I'm still buying one from you.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I was joking. I'm still buying one from you.



Well me too.... mostly.:laugh:


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I was just joking, anyway. Get back to work on your build. It's only 15 degrees. Not too cold to be working on it. lol


i actually did an install today starting at 8 am, and a tune for another guy in the afternoon for 4 hours.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> i actually did an install today starting at 8 am, and a tune for another guy in the afternoon for 4 hours.


beat that suckaaa..:laugh:


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Stage depth is about 30 feet.
> .


I've listened to the Speakerworks Buick and I've estimated that stage out to 12 feet. You're 2.5 times the level as that "has been".

Ignore the haterz & march to the beat of your own live drum set.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I've listened to the magic bus. One can describe it as smooth and buttery. Not engaging. That type of system seems to score well. I don't care for that type of sound.
> 
> My preference is more of an engaging, dynamic, lively, energetic, some notes can startle you, kind of experience. As if the drum set was in the same room with you. When you hear a piano, or saxophone, or trumpet, or guitar, it sounds like it is right there in front of you. But there is a fine balance that has to be achieved with some instruments such as horns or guitars that make it sound harsh if it is a hair too loud. Finding the level just under harshness is the tricky part.
> 
> ...



I have grown up around music, my father played violin for the Miami Symphony Orchestra, my Mother was a piano teacher, my brother was a studio drummer at the age of 13, my aunt played concert guitar(she lived with us most of my youth), and my uncle played just about every brass instrument you can imagine. I have been cursed with being ambidextrous and could never get my hands to do what they were supposed to, BUT I listened, I watched and learned. I spent weekends in studios listening to musicians play in closed rooms and open studios( I had to shuttle my brother to the studio), I spent time in music halls and I have seen more than my fair share of live concerts, and to be honest 90+% of them sound like ass. Its not about the sound, its about the experience of seeing your favorite band, the show, the spectacle and the pageantry. If you look at the spread sheet for your favorite artist that goes on tour the amount of money spent on sound is shockingly low, SHOCKINGLY, and this is where I have a problem with what you said....

You say you like a car that is *"My preference is more of an engaging, dynamic, lively, energetic, some notes can startle you, kind of experience"* and I say that translates to Harsh, Bright, in your face, fatiguing, brash, unbalanced....

You say that we as competitors like cars that are buttery smooth, but that isn't correct, we like to make our cars sound as life like as possible, and if you had an understanding of a score sheet then you would understand what we are trying to accomplish. 

Getting drivers to reproduce instruments as they sound in real life is much easier than getting them to sound listenable in the confines of a vehicle, that is where you are getting lost in my opinion. I would be willing to bet that if you were to give your van a fair evaluation against likes of Gary's, or Mark's, Steve's or Kirk's that you would be disappointed in what you brought to the table. These guys have spent years TUNING their cars, breaking down boundaries and changing the way we listen and build our cars. To think that in the time you have invested in tuning your current setup that you are light years ahead of them is laughable and quite honestly an insult to many of us who have heard them and have competed with and against them. Give your van an evaluation, go to the Regional event in Pottsville Pa in May, or a show in Syracuse and see what happens.

For the record my completely stock 2007 Dodge Charger scored a 199 with the same judge that you had in your car on the same scoring system.


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## capea4 (Sep 2, 2010)

i will catch up here, i swear. i live on the same island and have an rta with fft, ill meter the car so you guys can all "visualize" what he hears


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

chefhow said:


> For the record my completely stock 2007 Dodge Charger scored a 199 with the same judge that you had in your car on the same scoring system.


that's beautiful right there...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

chefhow said:


> For the record my completely stock 2007 Dodge Charger scored a 199 with the same judge that you had in your car on the same scoring system.


10 points higher than his van... ouch


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

chefhow said:


> For the record my completely stock 2007 Dodge Charger scored a 199 with the same judge that you had in your car on the same scoring system.


main reason I think scoring standards screwed. If 07 charger get 199 I surely don`t want to compete in such meaningless competition.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Victor_inox said:


> main reason I think scoring standards screwed. If 07 charger get 199 I surely don`t want to compete in such meaningless competition.


do you know what a 199 equates to? if not then your statement has no meaning as you have no context. At finals very, very few score under 200 with the exception of the Rookie class. At finals for example in amateur 9 of the top 11 scored over 200. I was one of the two with a 198, because I had system issues hampering judging somewhat.

The lowest score in pro/am was a 216, in a 16 car field.

The absolute top cars in the mid 240's region.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Thank you for educational explanation.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

capea4 said:


> i will catch up here, i swear. i live on the same island and have an rta with fft, ill meter the car so you guys can all "visualize" what he hears


Thank you Charlie. I have been patiently waiting for you to have time for a get together. I would really like to see what the curve is. I'm my own boss so if a weekday would work better than a weekend, I can schedule a day with enough prior notice.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rawdawg said:


> I've listened to the Speakerworks Buick and I've estimated that stage out to 12 feet. You're 2.5 times the level as that "has been".
> 
> Ignore the haterz & march to the beat of your own live drum set.


How do you estimate staging properly? 

It seems like it varies depending on the recording. With one track on the IASCA disc in particular, there is a drum set on that track in the background. It sounds as if it were 30 feet away from the listening position. But you can tell that the original recording was made in a concert hall and that the drum set seems as if it were 30 feet away from the microphone. Maybe that is called something different than staging? If so than how would one determine proper stage depth?


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

Interesting thread, and I kinda like the van...but I'm a bit off kilter anyway (ask anybody who's met me). But whatever happens, don't start asking people to sign it. :laugh:

If I had this van, I would go around blasting this


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

The theme from S.W.A.T is cool. 

I was actually thinking changing the name of my company when I get my Master's license to:

............S. pecialty
............W. orkers
electric A. l
............T. eam

But I think that if that I were to use the Time Machine to send a message, it would be more along the lines of the BIG BLACK VAN that the Black Eyed Peas used in the following video:

https://youtu.be/WpYeekQkAdc


.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

I would love to tune that truck. My only concern is that the woofers are physically higher than the mids and tweets. However for the frequencies they play the mounting height may not be such an issue. Just that I've just never seen a floor stander for instance where the woofer was at the top and mids and tweets below it. Either ways I'd love to tune it.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> I would love to tune that truck. My only concern is that the woofers are physically higher than the mids and tweets. However for the frequencies they play the mounting height may not be such an issue. Just that I've just never seen a floor stander for instance where the woofer was at the top and mids and tweets below it. Either ways I'd love to tune it.


I think that this unorthodox system came together by divine guidance as opposed to me actually knowing what I am doing. There is a "golden ratio" aka. the fibonacci ratio that I think may have come into play here by accident, regarding cab dimensions, speaker locations, reflection points. Having flat glass windshield with no curves may have helped in bringing this system together. I think that the lobes in the tweeter radiation pattern reflect off the windshield with just the right precision. 

Having those mid-basses above the tweets and mids actually work well. The mid bass punch actually punches you right in the heart chakra where you can feel it. 

Having the 15" subs slightly outbound, almost directly over head, and angled inward, allows the lowest frequencies to radiate directly through ones entire body. 

This is sort of what the "Masters of Sound" knew when designing the pipe organ layout in the Churches of long ago. I may have stumbled upon this by accident, because I can assure everyone, that my knowledge of sound has nothing to do with why this system works the way it does. 

When one listens to music on this system, it actually takes you to a higher dimension. One can say that the DNA pattern found in the human body is actually a complex antenna array system that picks up energy. That double helix pattern is the same pattern found in sound waves. 

Ancient societies knew that sound was so important and that the entire universe is made up of energy, which is in essence is just vibrational patterns of sound. From the smallest of atoms, to patterns of sunflowers, to the spiral shape of a nautilus shell, to the spiral pattern of seahorse tails, to the spiral of galaxies, all follows this same mathematical formula that our creator used when designing the universe. 1.618..........

This ratio can be found in art, nature, mathematics, and in music. It is called PHI. The pyramids were built with knowledge of PHI which seems to be no longer taught. The freemasons use this suppressed hidden knowledge in designing their grand lodges. 

Its interesting that our founding fathers were freemasons and that the layout of our capitol city of Washington DC was built using PHI. "In God We Trust" has even been stamped on money, because they knew that the God or the "Grand Architect" as they call our creator, used mathematical formulation when creating the universe. 

I'm not a freemason, nor associated with freemason groups, but I have done a lot of research. I did stay at a holiday in express once. 

So Arun, I would love to take you up on your offer. Without your help, the system would still be sounding just mediocre. What microphone would you suggest that I purchase to start this process?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> So Arun, I would love to take you up on your offer. Without your help, the system would still be sounding just mediocre. What microphone would you suggest that I purchase to start this process?


lol, I meant sit in your truck with a cd of PN tracks, a measuring tape and some electrical tape . 

Any decent mic with a calibration file will do and the Dayton UMM is fairly popular on here.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> lol, I meant sit in your truck with a cd of PN tracks, a measuring tape and some electrical tape .
> 
> Any decent mic with a calibration file will do and the Dayton UMM is fairly popular on here.


So, you live in India, right? I could pay to have you fly round trip from New Delhi to Boston and back. Could you figure out how to get the F#1 software up and running so that the D.S.P. could be integrated into the system? Can you get the time off work? My guess is that it would take at least a week and the good part of a couple of weekends. I could pay for your time off work. How would your family feel about you doing this?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> So, you live in India, right? I could pay to have you fly round trip from New Delhi to Boston and back. Could you figure out how to get the F#1 software up and running so that the D.S.P. could be integrated into the system? Can you get the time off work? My guess is that it would take at least a week and the good part of a couple of weekends. I could pay for your time off work. How would your family feel about you doing this?


Wow!! Are you serious? The first thought that comes to mind is, that for the amount that it will cost, you can get it tuned by one of the legends like KP /Matt Roberts et al. For sure they will be better than me. 

I am a retail consultant and with the right amount of planning ahead, it is technically possible, sure. It's a really generous offer and one I would love to take on.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

You should plan it for October and come to finals while you are stateside.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

For real. If you can afford to fly someone from India with no sort of credentials other than an Internet persona (no offense me to sqnut, since he's essentially acknowledged this) and put them up for a week while compensating them for their time then surely you can afford a drive to a major show where you can get quality feedback from judges and visitors alike and probably hire someone to meet you there and do the work for you. All while saving a lot of money.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

ErinH said:


> For real. If you can afford to fly someone from India with no sort of credentials other than an Internet persona (no offense me to sqnut, since he's essentially acknowledged this) and put them up for a week while compensating them for their time then surely you can afford a drive to a major show where you can get quality feedback from judges and visitors alike and probably hire someone to meet you there and do the work for you. All while saving a lot of money.



But then sqnut's forum cred wouldn't be amplified or crucified, yo


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> Wow!! Are you serious? The first thought that comes to mind is, that for the amount that it will cost, you can get it tuned by one of the legends like KP /Matt Roberts et al. For sure they will be better than me.
> 
> I am a retail consultant and with the right amount of planning ahead, it is technically possible, sure. It's a really generous offer and one I would love to take on.


Thank you for your suggestion, however, the legends did not contact me and reach out to me to try and help me. You did and for that reason, I would rather give you my money let you have the adventure, experience, and credit. To me, loyalty and principal are important. The system is yours to tune. Weather it be by computer or in person. Which ever is meant to be will happen.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Nick ( SkizeR ) said that you have very good tuning abilities and everything you suggested he tried and you seemed to be right on the mark with everything you suggested.
> I think that his vehicle is tuned perfectly.


Aww how did I miss this one, that's very sweet of him, very humbling. Nick is a smart young man who should get his butt in gear, finish his install and hit the lanes. He's kinda hooked, but needs to compete to take the addiction to a whole new level.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Is it just me or has DIYMA become the frickin' twilight zone lately?


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Is it just me or has DIYMA become the frickin' twilight zone lately?



Maybe hra is actually sqnut. 

And maybe Nick is actually Erin. 

Which would make you Andy.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> Aww how did I miss this one, that's very sweet of him, very humbling. Nick is a smart young man who should get his butt in gear, finish his install and hit the lanes. He's kinda hooked, but needs to compete to take the addiction to a whole new level.


its currently 15 degrees Fahrenheit right now.. i think mother nature needs to get her ass in gear first lol


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

benny z said:


> But then sqnut's forum cred wouldn't be amplified or crucified, yo


That's ok, I'm a Libran and used to wild swings on the scales.

TBH while I'm really excited by the challenge and flattered by the generous offer, for the cost of the adventure the value bar would be set really high and it's going to be a leap of faith to clear it. I mean I'd hate to spend that quantum of [edit]Gerald's[edit] money only to discover we couldn't clear the bar of expectation due to my tuning limitations. That thought is scary


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> its currently 15 degrees Fahrenheit right now.. i think mother nature needs to get her ass in gear first lol


I was talking to my son who is in Ottawa and he too was moaning about the cold. It's pleasant here though 55 at 1 am. Shorts and T shirt weather.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

maybe to save some travel expenses, you could do some tuning and evaluating using youtube videos?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

benny z said:


> Maybe hra is actually sqnut.
> 
> And maybe Nick is actually Erin.
> 
> Which would make you Andy.


Someones been smoking.....


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

and im about to be outside finishing up an install in this weather. i have to start another one tomorrow when itll be even colder -___-


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Is it just me or has DIYMA become the frickin' twilight zone lately?


You guy's wanted spice, right? To liven things up a little.....around here. Instead of the same ole' same ole'? 

Well, let me introduce myself. My name is Gerald "Go Big or Go Home" Costa.

Yes, I think different and I do things different than most.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

ErinH said:


> For real. If you can afford to fly someone from India with no sort of credentials other than an Internet persona (no offense me to sqnut, since he's essentially acknowledged this) and put them up for a week while compensating them for their time then surely you can afford a drive to a major show where you can get quality feedback from judges and visitors alike and probably hire someone to meet you there and do the work for you. All while saving a lot of money.


That is true, but where are these major shows? 

It is not very comfortable driving long distance in the Time Machine. She has a GVW of 21,500 pounds. The leaf springs are almost a foot thick. And the 500 cubic inch Detroit Diesel roaring along at 55 MPH makes for 90 Decibels in the cab. Going up steep hills, I almost go backwards. 

When it comes to car audio, money is not a major concern. 
But who I give my money to, is of more importance.

.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

jtaudioacc said:


> maybe to save some travel expenses, you could do some tuning and evaluating using youtube videos?


I guess I could film graph of the Frequency Response the computer screen while playing Pink Noise and get input that way???


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## erlebo (Jan 10, 2012)

Gerald, if you really like your van's sound more than any other vehicle you have heard then maybe you shouldn't hire an experienced tuner. The result might be something you don't like.

I'm not trying to be funny here. Get a mic and learn the techniques. There's a learning curve but you'll be able to get a sound that you like and you'll know how you got there.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> Maybe hra is actually sqnut.
> 
> And maybe Nick is actually Erin.
> 
> Which would make you Andy.


LMFAO!!!


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

erlebo said:


> Gerald, if you really like your van's sound more than any other vehicle you have heard then maybe you shouldn't hire an experienced tuner. The result might be something you don't like.
> 
> I'm not trying to be funny here. Get a mic and learn the techniques. There's a learning curve but you'll be able to get a sound that you like and you'll know how you got there.


I went to purchase a Daton UMM-6 microphone on amazon today, but they are out of stock for 2-3 weeks. Is there another one that may work as well?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Ok......I was gonna suggest coming to the upcoming n.c. spring meet and show this thing off......but I googled it, and it's 12 freaking hours, and I know you said it's a horrid travel machine.......a buddy of mine hosts a pretty awesome gathering down here, many great cars, if 12 hours is doable......you can look up the past threads to see the epic nature of his meets....


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

claydo said:


> Ok......I was gonna suggest coming to the upcoming n.c. spring meet and show this thing off......but I googled it, and it's 12 freaking hours, and I know you said it's a horrid travel machine.......a buddy of mine hosts a pretty awesome gathering down here, many great cars, if 12 hours is doable......you can look up the past threads to see the epic nature of his meets....


Thank you for making me aware of this gathering. It's just too far away. 

Someone mentioned Pennsylvania. That may be more of a doable journey.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Yea if you were able to make the NC meet there are a lot of good guys who could help you out and offer feedback.


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## erlebo (Jan 10, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I went to purchase a Daton UMM-6 microphone on amazon today, but they are out of stock for 2-3 weeks. Is there another one that may work as well?


You can get them from Cross·Spectrum, with a more accurate calibration than the one from Dayton.

Cross·Spectrum - Calibrated Dayton Audio UMM-6 Microphones for Sale


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

It could just be me, but have any of you actually seen sqnut and High Resolution Audio in the same place at the same time? Lois Lane would probably be hot for both of them...


----------



## Kellyo77 (Dec 5, 2009)

I just read all of this. Im just like, i dont


Thats enough internet for today.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I went to purchase a Daton UMM-6 microphone on amazon today, but they are out of stock for 2-3 weeks. Is there another one that may work as well?


About the same cost as the Dayton this one works well too.

http://www.amazon.com/miniDSP-UMIK-1-Measurement-Calibrated-Microphone/dp/B00N4Q25R8


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

erlebo said:


> Gerald, if you really like your van's sound more than any other vehicle you have heard then maybe you shouldn't hire an experienced tuner. The result might be something you don't like.
> 
> I'm not trying to be funny here. Get a mic and learn the techniques. There's a learning curve but you'll be able to get a sound that you like and you'll know how you got there.


I would like to correct the statement you made about me liking the Time Machine's sound more than any other vehicle that I have heard. 

I have heard a couple of vehicles systems that sound equally as good as mine.

1. A Tesla featured indoors at T.H.E. show in Newport beach sounded incredible.

2. Forum member Mike "Goodstuff" brought a car to the IASCA event in Rye Brook, New York. That day, I thought his car sounded better than mine. That system's presentation was different and blew me away. He didn't score highest in points that day with a 202. 

The winning car was Eric from Canada who scored a 212. 
To me Eric's car had a very similar presentation to the Magic Bus. Smooth and laid back. Buttery one might call it. 

I was very surprised that Mike's car scored lower than Eric's. After that day's experience, I would rather focus on making a presentation that sounds good to me rather than one that scores high in a competition.

I'm sure that there are many more "awesome" sounding vehicles. 
But I bet that each one makes for a different presentation, weather be it slight, or dramatic. And all of those vehicles probably sound equally as good.

My point was that the presentation that the Time Machine makes today, after fixing many issues since the IASCA event, makes for a presentation that seems as if there were actually no sound system at all. It really seems as if musical instruments were being played in front of the listener. Speakers just disappear. 

The system in the Time Machine doesn't have a precise pinpoint center image. The center image is wide. A piano's average length is about 7', but can range anywhere from 4 1/2' to 9 1/2'. 

To me, if I were listening to a piano being played in front of me live, and I wanted to recreate that experience, on a sound system, the center phantom image would have to appear equally as wide as the piano, or same same width as which ever instrument being played front and center.

This seems to go against the precise pinpoint center image that is required to score well in a competition.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> About the same cost as the Dayton this one works well too.
> 
> Amazon.com: miniDSP UMIK-1 USB Measurement Calibrated Microphone: Musical Instruments


Thanks. I just ordered it second day shipping.

Is there a safe web-sight to download Room EQ Wizzard for MAC ?


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Thanks. I just ordered it second day shipping.
> 
> Is there a safe web-sight to download Room EQ Wizzard for MAC ?


REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software


I cant download this version without doing a whole operating system upgrade. That scares me to death. Last time I did that, I had to purchase a whole new version of quick-books which still has glitches. And a customer of mine showed me that his computer ran incredibly slow after his "upgrade".

Is there another program that may work?


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Gerald/Arun(?) , et al...

Secret weapon here...

The IASCA official judging reference headphone set. Get some...listen to them often... Tune your system's tonality to them and you should score high in tonality.

Beyond that it's a matter of dialing in speaker placement, phase, and left/right response to create a wide, deep, and focused image. 

Get it all right and fix any noise/convenience issues and you should walk away scoring highly. And your system will probably sound amazing. 

*hint - these headphones are not "buttery". Take a listen. They're very lively and if anything the top end is elevated some. They've got just enough brassy character that I'd never refer to them as "buttery smooth". ...but not what I would call "bright" or "fatiguing". I would call them pleasantly revealing.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

benny z said:


> Gerald/Arun(?) , et al...
> 
> Secret weapon here...
> 
> ...


Thank you very much but I'm not going to change my reference and have to do everything over again, in the car 

But seriously, my ref is my 2ch+sub in my study, which I think sounds better tonally and more accurate overall than even the Scan floor standers in my living room. It's a simple Dali Concept 2 bookshelf + local 10" sub in a sealed box crossed at 50, running off Nad power. Man, that thing sounds incredibly detailed and dynamic, with pinpoint imaging. I've spent the best part of 7 odd years picking all the nuances and then trying to replicate them in the car. The ref sound is etched in my head and as long as I use familiar material while tuning, I don't have any issues dialing the sound in.

I would not call the sound buttery at all. To me the sound is very neutral, by that I mean its as close as I can get to the recording. So with something like this number by Sarah Mclachlan (I'm a sucker for female vocals) the guitar amp was turned up all the way to 10 while recording, so when you crank this number the guitar almost bites my head off and I hear the distortion from guitar amp.





My ref and car sound is very neutral, it's true to the recording. To me balance, dynamics and tonality are integral to good sound. Buttery to me is the Dynaudio sound. Most of their home speakers sound velvety smooth, interesting for a change but not very exciting. 

I'm not worried about my ability to dial in really good sound, my issue is the sum that's likely to be involved. If I factor in a weeks income based on last years tax returns, add the air fare to and fro and boarding / lodging there, I'm in the 4.5-5G ball park. For THAT kind of money Gerald can practically get anyone from the proven top 10-12 tuners in the world. It would be highly presumptuous of me to believe that I'm at par with them. If the sum involved was smaller, I'd probably already be in Geralds truck .


----------



## redit (Jan 14, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Just some pics of the back. And how things are organized.


Doesn't this stuff rattle like crazy with 1,200 watts pushing two fifteens?


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

redit said:


> Doesn't this stuff rattle like crazy with 1,200 watts pushing two fifteens?


There is a particle board wall 3/4" thick that separates the cab from the storage space. Those things get rattled around for sure, but its not from the sound system. The freaking truck is built like a tank as it was originally built as a newspaper delivery truck. The leaf springs are about a foot thick in the back. With a total GVW of 21,500 pounds, I put the truck on the scales and as it stands now, it weighs about 15000 pounds with all the tools and supplies and shelves in the back. The truck just rolling along the highway vibrates like hell. That's why everything is in cardboard, otherwise it would chaff against itself and leave groves and scratches on everything, even more than it does now. The cardboard helps quite a bit. 

The beast has air brakes and I put a train horn on it that blasts at 150 DB. Before partial sound deadening, the noise floor in the cab was 95 DB at idle. I got it down to 89 DB and hope to quiet it down even more before I finish.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> Gerald/Arun(?) , et al...
> 
> Secret weapon here...
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip. I didn't even know that those headphones were in existence. And the description of the sound is in tune with what I prefer.


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## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

Found a pair of the headphones on ebay yesterday at a good price and pulled the trigger. Interested in how they compare with my reference Westones or my other IEM's from Shure and ultimate ears. My build will be finished next month so I will log some time with the maestros prior to tuning.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

cool - let us know your thoughts.

coincidentally...

german maestro, as i understand it, is the company formed by the guys who originally built mb quart.


----------



## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

Interesting. I had a couple systems in the 90's with the Quarts. I loved the sound of those speakers. QM216 if I remember correctly.


----------



## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

Sorry HRA, didn't mean to go off topic on your thread.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rockinridgeline said:


> Sorry HRA, didn't mean to go off topic on your thread.


No worries, I actually like to learn about products and their history. And I try and absorb information like a sponge. And I found those posts about headphones very informational. Especially when it's about a quality product.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Here is a link to my next build log. If anyone has an interest or can provide any tips, comments or suggestions. It is a very unique build which may lend itself to many unique acoustics. The cab may act as a big reverberation chamber???

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ry/223401-2016-ford-e-450-cutaway-15-box.html


.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Since I self admittedly are not the best at tuning, I have been listening to some sound system test CD's and have learned some terminology. 

What my system does really well is sound transparent. I used the term "Live sounding" in previous posts, not knowing what the right term was, or how to explain it. 

At this point in time, my system may not have perfect tonality or perfect staging, however it hands down is the most transparent sound system I have ever heard. 

I gave another demo to someone on Thursday and he said " Your system sounds like a studio, where people who make music would pay to hear their music on to see if it sounds good." 

He turned me on to the music of Jeff Beck. We watched and listened to some You-Tube videos of Jeff Beck at the crossroads festival. Holy freaking molly! That guy can rock. 

I am giving serious consideration to make it to the get together in North Carolina in April. I was trying to convince SkizeR to join me as a second driver, but as of now he has not committed.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Hope ya make it! We have a great group down here and I know you'll have a helluva good time.....


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

claydo said:


> Hope ya make it! We have a great group down here and I know you'll have a helluva good time.....


It will be like a 15-16 hour drive, with stops for gas and food, It would be a long trip. If I could stop about 1/2 way overnight it may make for a more manageable journey. My best friend lives in Havertown, PA. That is about 1/2 way. It would make it 4 days of driving. A lot to consider.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I took measurements with a radio shack SPL meter "C" weighted and made the corrections the low and high end go get a true graph.

As one can see, I prefer a top end that is hotter as opposed to rolled off. 

It looks like my curve is pretty flat with no EQ. 

No major peaks, and a dip at 250 and 315 HZ.

Small boost in the 80-100 area and a boost in the 250 - 315 area may be all I need.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I took the Alpine F#1 system and 12 volt power supply and laptop computer and mounted it all to a piece of plywood, and wired it this morning at 5:00 A.M. 

On my way to my brother-in-law's house so he can fix the software issue.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Nice, great gear that f1 setup......should've never been discontinued.....market just isn't there anymore....


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Brother-in-law said that I need to find a working USB driver so that the computer can "talk" with the DVI H990. The computer can see that the H-990 is there, but cant communicate. Anybody know where I can get a working copy of the software needed?


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## capea4 (Sep 2, 2010)

Just got out of Gerald's truck.
We measured it with REW and I think with the F#1 stuff we can fix some of the responce issues. I would call it dynamic. 5's and tweets on axis at ear level do make a huge soundstage. It was insanely high and wide. There is definatly a phase issue between the 10's and the 15's, the highs were very hot. It's one of a kind that's for sure, and I hope to help him get rid of the major issues and get it flattened out a bunch.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Badass! Glad he found some tuning help. Bring it to Illinois this year!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Today I found no phase issue with the 10's and 15's. There was just too large of a gap between crossover settings. 

It's nice to see the problem areas with the Frequency Response Curve.....thanks Charlie!

On a side note, I got another computer guy to help with the F#1 software. Turns out it was very dirty USB port and a very old computer. 
A new laptop is on the way.


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## capea4 (Sep 2, 2010)

post the plot Gerald, theres lots of smart guys that can give us some pointers.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

capea4 said:


> post the plot Gerald, theres lots of smart guys that can give us some pointers.


I'm going to install the F#1 system first. My friend, Mike, an IT guy, got me a new laptop, got the software installed, and the Calibration file installed for the USB microphone. And installed REW.

After I install the F#1, I'm sure the curve is going to change. I'll record and post the new curve once I have the DSP and head unit installed.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So today, I made the DVI-9990 and power supply enclosure. I still have to sand all the corners and cover it in carpet. I put a slot underneath to hold the empty case of whichever CD/DVD is in the unit.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Lookin pretty good. 

Hey I have 1 bnib Beyma 10g40 . I will let go for a great price. You would only need buy a 2nd one from usspeaker


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Yesterday, I took the leaking front windows out, as well as the passenger side wiper pivot tube. Installed new rubber gaskets, and new tube. Took the entire day to re-install.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Today, my helper and I, stripped dash vents, and gauge pod, painted vents and "wood-grain" gauge cluster.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Applied vibration damper.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

And finally installed carpet and painted dash vents and gauge pods.


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## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

Cool to see you taking it.to another level. Keep it up! 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## capea4 (Sep 2, 2010)

Nice! F1 running?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rockinridgeline said:


> Cool to see you taking it.to another level. Keep it up!
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


Thanks for the positive reply. It's a lot of labor. 14 hour day and a 10 hour day. I have to do electrical work tomorrow. But will continue on Thursday.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

capea4 said:


> Nice! F1 running?


Not yet. Lots and lots of prep work.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Worked 1/2 day doing electrical and 1/2 day on system. Got F#1 head unit enclosure sanded and carpeted. Just quickly installed unit to take a photo. No wiring as of yet.


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## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

Beautiful head unit. Nice work on the enclosure. Is it vented in the back?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rockinridgeline said:


> Beautiful head unit. Nice work on the enclosure. Is it vented in the back?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


There is just a small opening about 1" x 2 1/2" in the far right corner. The corner that lines up with the channel that runs up between the windows. Both The DC to DC power supply and head unit are going to be housed in the enclosure. The head unit is dead......no on board amp.

Do you think I should make for more ventilation?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

It couldn't hurt, with such a beautiful piece, and parts being about gone.......I'd take every precaution.....I'd be a lil nervous about it being front and center on display too, thankfully with the little interest in car audio, thievery isn't as common as it once was, but with that piece you gotta worry about the folks who know what it is....and what's likely attached to it.


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## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

I don't think the unit creates a ton of heat, but I am more concerned about the heat from where it is positioned. Dashboards can get to 160 degrees on a hot summer day. You have a huge window that is going to let in all of the sunlight and things are going to get hot in the summer. If you start off at 160 degrees and there is no air circulation in there I would be concerned about heat damaging the unit.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rockinridgeline said:


> I don't think the unit creates a ton of heat, but I am more concerned about the heat from where it is positioned. Dashboards can get to 160 degrees on a hot summer day. You have a huge window that is going to let in all of the sunlight and things are going to get hot in the summer. If you start off at 160 degrees and there is no air circulation in there I would be concerned about heat damaging the unit.


Thank you so much for pointing that out to me. I was reading the manual and the DC to DC converter will get hot. I drilled 8 holes in the bottom of the enclosure. After turning on and taking temp readings, I may decide to move the converter to a place that will get more air. I appreciate the input.


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## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

No prob. I am guessing considering your profession that you might have a multimeter with a thermistor or something to get an idea of temperature buildup. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rockinridgeline said:


> No prob. I am guessing considering your profession that you might have a multimeter with a thermistor or something to get an idea of temperature buildup.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


I have a laser thermometer. That should work. I think the head unit will be ok, if I remove the power supply from the enclosure.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Good progress today. Got most of wiring done. Will finish the rest tomorrow and re-mount the driver enclosures. Should be firing up the system tomorrow for the first time, by afternoon.


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

rockinridgeline said:


> I don't think the unit creates a ton of heat, but I am more concerned about the heat from where it is positioned. Dashboards can get to 160 degrees on a hot summer day. You have a huge window that is going to let in all of the sunlight and things are going to get hot in the summer. If you start off at 160 degrees and there is no air circulation in there I would be concerned about heat damaging the unit.


Man that's a great point rockinridgeline! That's one big piece of glass and with that HU, I'd take it 1 step further. What about making another piece that floats around your enclosure that would absorb the heat off the glass. Leave a small gap and remove the carpet on the back 3/4 of the original enclosure. Shoot, if it gets super hot, buy yourself some heat resistant tape to lay on HU enclosure. I love the shiny gold version, used it on a couple charge pipes before.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

It took my helper and I all day to finish the wiring. Got the F#1 up running with just crossover settings. All I can say is WOW! The system sounds smoother than the Alpine 9835. Imaging is better, There is much more space around instruments, etc. The sound stage rivals some of the best home two channels I have ever heard. 

However, I cant figure out how to get the video working for the 32" flat screen, or adjust the settings to allow for the external input to be turned on. I would like to use REW to find the new Frequency Response graph. It's lower in the midrange and top end than I prefer. Probably closer to the waterfall curve right now with no eq.

I still have to have custom RCA interconnects made to length, just using cheap radio shack ones now, but the wiring is a lot cleaner now than before.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

i hope you drive that thing out to california for THE SHOW newport. just think, you could park next to Jon. that would be awesome!


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

jtaudioacc said:


> i hope you drive that thing out to california for THE SHOW newport. just think, you could park next to Jon. that would be awesome!


HOLD ON, is "Jon's" truck/van that has been talked about in this thread the one with a 3 way set in the A pillars and the attention to detail is so impressive that..... oh boy, now I get it.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

1FinalInstall said:


> HOLD ON, is "Jon/John's" truck/van that has been talked about in this thread, the insane build that's so impressive and over the top killer that just the thought of someone saying it's "ok" would be insane? Think the A-pillars held a 3 way set? Sorry if I'm a bit slow to the party. If so, oh boy.... now I get it.


Build


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I had a nice set of Interstate Batteries that lasted 6 years. Replaced with Napa Batteries about 3 weeks ago. 

Note. Don't buy Napa Batteries they suck. 

Replacing them with New Northstar Batteries that I picked up yesterday.

Here are some photos of the old and new batteries.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Two new upgrades to take it to the next level.......One is a Cadillac Limo center " sweet spot " seat. 

The other is a flat screen smart television. TV is not mounted yet. Seat isn't yet mounted yet. I have to build a new passenger compartment wall further back to allow for three new, larger seats. I'm going to make a solid wall instead of having a sliding door. The door hardware vibrates too much.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

The single windshield wiper motor, bracket and arms are in the way of where the flat screen is going. So I bought two wiper motors and am moving them outbound to allow for the screen. Had to get a new switch and wiring harness to control both motors simultaneously.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

jtaudioacc said:


> i hope you drive that thing out to california for THE SHOW newport. just think, you could park next to Jon. that would be awesome!


People would come up to my truck and try to order burritos. Lol


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## mirkinator (Feb 22, 2016)

The TV was the final straw. I had to subscribe. 

I hope the windshield won't cause distractions when you are driving and watching tv. 

Nice job man, I actually spit my drink.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

These seems completely practical. Perhaps you should flip it around and put your menu on there to make it easier for your customers to decide which burrito they want.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

mirkinator said:


> The TV was the final straw. I had to subscribe.
> 
> I hope the windshield won't cause distractions when you are driving and watching tv.
> 
> Nice job man, I actually spit my drink.


I can't believe you spit your drink! lol

I've decided to ditch the 32" 1080P and get a 42" 4k. 

Why not, right?

It will be hinged and fold up when not in use.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rton20s said:


> These seems completely practical. Perhaps you should flip it around and put your menu on there to make it easier for your customers to decide which burrito they want.


That actually works good. I have a friend that owns a pizza joint that has three televisions side by each with his menus on them.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

What was bad about the Napa batteries? 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> What was bad about the Napa batteries?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


The Napa batteries have lots of cold cranking power, but they have very little power to run the stereo for more than 5-10 min before they start to die. Sometimes not even being able to start the truck. They are cheap and weak. 

The Interstates could run an easy 20-30 min, have power to start the motor, and recharge in 10 min. Do it over and over with no problems for the last few years.


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

rton20s said:


> Build


Thanks rton20s! Yup, that's the one I've drooled over several times.


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## mirkinator (Feb 22, 2016)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I can't believe you spit your drink! lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Go touch screen? Why not?

https://www.cdw.com/shop/products/NEC-MultiSync-V423-TM-42in-LED-display/3221333.aspx


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

This...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3UvwRHqEFA


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rton20s said:


> This...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3UvwRHqEFA


Someone just told me about that product, yesterday. Too bad it's only clear when powered. Unsafe to use on front windows in case of failure, or dead battery. It's a cool product, though.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

mirkinator said:


> Go touch screen? Why not?
> 
> https://www.cdw.com/shop/products/NEC-MultiSync-V423-TM-42in-LED-display/3221333.aspx


That's a cool product too. It's nice to know that it is available. I don't think the touchscreen aspect would come in handy in this instance. Also it's just 1080.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

this thread just keeps getting better and better!!


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## erlebo (Jan 10, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I can't believe you spit your drink! lol
> 
> I've decided to ditch the 32" 1080P and get a 42" 4k.
> 
> ...


Have you considered installing an ultra short throw projector?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

erlebo said:


> Have you considered installing an ultra short throw projector?


I was thinking about using a projector on my next build (2016 Ford E-450 Cutaway). It would shine on the back side of the air deflector, that I can work on to make a mirror smooth white surface. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

This was difficult to do because I use the truck every day for work and it's going to be uncomfortable until I get it finished, but I took the sawzall to the back wall. Opened up the listening area a bit. lol

As you can see from the photos, the center seat extends way back past the old wall. I'm going to have to modify all the shelving on both drivers and passenger side to allow for the new wall making the passenger compartment larger.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Hey man, I know yer having fun and all.......but don't go too far and compromise the vans first purpose......yer work vehicle. I'd seriously consider ditching the center seat, and the tv....I mean, traveling from jobsite to jobsite the sound is gonna be enjoyed from the drivers seat, so I'd stick with that........maybe if it gets retired one day, you can get all crazy, but I just wonder if it might be spiraling a little bit on ya......lol.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

That's just me, over the top. The center seat makes for an incredible stage. equidistant from the speakers makes for a whole new listening experience. The center image is pinpoint now, centered on a point less than the size of a dime. 

The whole meaning of life is to enjoy the passing of time. The reason I work is to have the funds available and time available to enjoy the people and things I really love. 

I listen to music every day. It is my passion and what I enjoy. This build is not spiraling out of control. It has been my plan all along to create the most incredible sound system ever built. The screen is the only addition that I wasn't planning on ahead of time. 

But watching music videos takes it to a level beyond belief. It envelopes the listener and transports him/her to a different place in time. That's why the truck is called the "Time Machine".

Most electricians work out of a regular van. I have much more space than a regular van has. I can afford to lose a few cubic feet of space.....

After work, I listen to music for an hour or two most every day. It's my therapy. That's when the screen will come down and I will move to the center seat. Or when I am giving demos, on weekends or whatnot. Music videos on VEVO in high resolution is amazing. 

Not really interested in watching television or movies on the system. The whole system has been designed for listening to music and music videos. What's coming next is a Blu Ray player that up converts to 4K so that I can enjoy my entire collection (over 125) of music concerts on blue ray and dvd. 

One has only one life to live. I have no wife to answer to, and no children to support and I do not own my own house. I rent so that I can have the funds available to enjoy what I love the most. 

I have been passionate about music all my life. I will be listening to music until I die. You should see the system I am designing for my coffin.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Well, not much I can say to that but..... g'head den! Lol, if ya don't speak *******, that was encouragement. I hope you find a way to get this thing out to share it with folks, still headed down this way in about a month?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

claydo said:


> Well, not much I can say to that but..... g'head den! Lol, if ya don't speak *******, that was encouragement. I hope you find a way to get this thing out to share it with folks, still headed down this way in about a month?


I just may. It is a long trip. There is a IASCA and MECA event in New York the weekend before. I'm going to head to that event for sure. 

I think it may be worth it to make the long journey to North Carolina. Especially to meet up with all y'all. It looks like it's shaping up to be a good turnout.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Lol, yes a long trip on a normal vehicle, let alone one not designed with clicking the miles by coddled in comfort.......so, I understand yer hesitation, but hope ya make it work none the less.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

claydo said:


> Lol, yes a long trip on a normal vehicle, let alone one not designed with clicking the miles by coddled in comfort.......so, I understand yer hesitation, but hope ya make it work none the less.


I think that I'll regret it if I don't make it. Is it a once a year thing? Or one in the spring one in the fall ?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Usually twice a year, depending on our gracious hosts tolerance of our goofy group.....lol.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

claydo said:


> Usually twice a year, depending on our gracious hosts tolerance of our goofy group.....lol.


Well if I'm too tired from the prior weeks event, and I do not make it to the spring meet-up, I will definitely attend the one in the fall.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Well been busy today, cutting the passenger side shelving back a few inches to allow for new wall.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Mock up of passenger and center seating. Driver and passenger seating will be from a Jaguar "S" type.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

You should just bold a freaking lazy boy recliner in the middle lol!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> You should just bold a freaking lazy boy recliner in the middle lol!


The one I have is brown. It won't match.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Been working crazy hours on the build. Got the wall built with no help from Donald Trump.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

So curious... Why the wall?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Good way to isolate the front from the rear?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> So curious... Why the wall?


The wall separates the passenger compartment from the business end of the truck. The factory had installed a wall with a sliding door. This allowed the passenger compartment to be heated, and provided for a quieter and "more comfortable" cab. The factory actually sound deadened underneath the floor of the passenger compartment a little. 

With that said, the road/engine noise is about 95-97 Decibels at 55 MPH due to the 8.2 Liter Detroit Diesel 2 stroke engine. It's very loud. 

The cab had small, bare bones seating. It actually came with just a driver's seat. I added a fold down seat on the passenger side witch is not very comfortable to sit in for any length of time. My 21 year old helper doesn't mind, he said that he is use to it. 

In order to fit more comfortable, premium seating, and install the "sweet spot" center seat, I had to push the compartment wall back about a foot. I could have made a solid wall, but instead, I decided to make a niche for two reasons.

The first, to push the center seat back another few inches to allow more leg room as the engine cover protrudes into the center of the cab quite a bit. 

And the second, above the center seat, the niche will allow a couple of built-in shelves that will hold my collection of over 100 Blu-ray's and DVD music concerts. I purposely made the depth of the niche the same as a music DVD tilted at an angle backwards. Hopefully the angle will stop the DVDs from falling out during heavy braking. If not, I'll install a set of black bungee cords spanned across to help hold them in place.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

2 stroke DD? That thing must sound crazy when you are in the upper revs shifting.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

I see. If it's a daily use need, that makes sense. I just suspect it may take away from the sense of space, add difficult reflections, etc... 

Maybe treating it with acoustical treatments will help? That is, if it creates a problem.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

thehatedguy said:


> 2 stroke DD? That thing must sound crazy when you are in the upper revs shifting.


It's an automatic, but it does rev up quite a bit, yes. And it does sound crazy.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> I see. If it's a daily use need, that makes sense. I just suspect it may take away from the sense of space, add difficult reflections, etc...
> 
> Maybe treating it with acoustical treatments will help? That is, if it creates a problem.


I was just going to cover it with the black speaker carpet as I had done with the rest of the build. Even going to finish off the sides and above the windows, etc. Everything that was bare aluminum will be painted flat black or ply-wooded and carpeted.

It always had a wall. Just moved it back and eliminated the door, who's hardware vibrated to annoy me.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Word


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

For some reason, when the center seat is way back in the niche, the mids and highs loose their sharpness. I will use the niche to house not only my DVDs and blue rays, but from floor to ceiling shelving to house CDs. I'll hinge the center seat to gain access to the lower shelves.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I got the passenger pedestal mounted and the plate and spacers fabricated and bolted in place. 

1/4" Steel plate between the seat and top of pedestal as well as under the aluminum step. Jaguar Type S seat mounted. Still have to do cosmetics, but fab work complete.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Center windshield bracket and motor removed, holes plugged, and new motors tucked in behind mid-basses. New wiring to a new intermittent wiper dual motor controller. Prep work done for the screen installation.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Got the center seat base fabricated and installed, and got the flat screen installed by the skin of my teeth with just enough time to get a few hours good sleep and begin the journey to Syracuse for the competition. 

I have the capability now in the Time Machine to 

1. Play CD's, HDCD, SACD

2. DVD's, DVD audio, Blue Ray Concerts

3. Vinyl

4. And Stream Vevo From You-tube and 

5. Watch it on a 43" Vizio 4K flat screen.

The photos are the ceiling. The TV folds down in front of the front windows.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Wish we could teleport this to North Carolina for the meet this weekend


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bertholomey said:


> Wish we could teleport this to North Carolina for the meet this weekend


Yes, me too! Beam me down, Scotty! lol Really would like to meet all y'all.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Went to Syracuse Customs this weekend and competed in both IASCA PRO/AM and MECA EXTREME class. Lots of snow and met some good people. Got the system tuned by SkizeR on the way. With his great tune, was able to place first in both contests. And that was with the sub-woofers turned off.


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## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

awesome! must feel great after all of that work to get some positive feedback. Congrats!


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Got the system tuned by SkizeR on the way.


sweet, guess you got his address, he's been giving it out lately.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> sweet, guess you got his address, he's been giving it out lately.


Nah

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

Congrats on the wins, that's awesome!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rockinridgeline said:


> awesome! must feel great after all of that work to get some positive feedback. Congrats!


Thanks. It was nice to be able to get together with others that share the same passion for music. It was worth the long ride to meet up with a lot of nice folks.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

1FinalInstall said:


> Congrats on the wins, that's awesome!


Thanks so much. System is coming along nicely. But it was a team effort for sure. My IT guy that got the software running, my helper that spent hours working on the system with me, Nick (SkizeR), who tuned the system and having this forum to gain such valuable information. And I would like to thank the Academy......lol no just kidding.

The build is far from being done. I think that I still have many, many more months of work ahead of me.


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## capea4 (Sep 2, 2010)

I'm glad you guys were able to get it balanced out! I might have missed it, but did you get the dsp running?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

capea4 said:


> I'm glad you guys were able to get it balanced out! I might have missed it, but did you get the dsp running?


Yes, Got the Alpine F#1 installed and running, and much, much more. It is all in the build log.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I thought I might share a quick little snippet.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQV30BqegbI


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Who's That Girl?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRzlBMYuO6s


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I had the privilege to meet up with Gerald this evening for an extended demo. It was great meeting you and experiencing your system. We listened to a wide variety of music, and I was able to get a good evaluation of all of the system's strengths. Sitting in the center street and having the tweet and midrange on the far left and right was very cool. Extremely unique having the center image so incredibly high in the stage. The system was lively, dynamic with nothing offensive in the least bit. Again, that stage is incredibly wide and deep, and HIGH......hard to get used to. Extremely enjoyable system - especially with that John Mayer DVD. 

So.....get that mid bass / sub bass performance to match the highs and mids, and you will have that home system in a vehicle that will be completely amazing. 

Beautiful location for a demo! Under the Sagamore Bridge....on the canal.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

And.....thanks for the tip about the East Bay Grill! Would be perfect if I weren't sitting next to 2 divorcees griping about their X's......oh, almost forgot about the 2 stoners in the car next to us.....I seriously started feeling wonky


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bertholomey said:


> I had the privilege to meet up with Gerald this evening for an extended demo. It was great meeting you and experiencing your system. We listened to a wide variety of music, and I was able to get a good evaluation of all of the system's strengths. Sitting in the center street and having the tweet and midrange on the far left and right was very cool. Extremely unique having the center image so incredibly high in the stage. The system was lively, dynamic with nothing offensive in the least bit. Again, that stage is incredibly wide and deep, and HIGH......hard to get used to. Extremely enjoyable system - especially with that John Mayer DVD.
> 
> So.....get that mid bass / sub bass performance to match the highs and mids, and you will have that home system in a vehicle that will be completely amazing.
> 
> Beautiful location for a demo! Under the Sagamore Bridge....on the canal.


It was no nice of you to take the time to listen to the system. It was a pleasure to meet you and a nice spot to hang out watching the boats, the sunset, and that huge ship go by.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bertholomey said:


> And.....thanks for the tip about the East Bay Grill! Would be perfect if I weren't sitting next to 2 divorcees griping about their X's......oh, almost forgot about the 2 stoners in the car next to us.....I seriously started feeling wonky


I though there was a skunk that sprayed right next to us! 

I can recommend a good restaurant, but I'm not responsible for the other patrons that may be dining at said establishment. Eat at your own risk.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So I decided to do a driver upgrade. At first, I was going to go with all Scanspeak off the shelf units. I had already purchased a pair of the 2904 ring radiator tweeters which are amazing. 

But then I decided to go a step further. After getting blown away by a set of home speakers, I decided to go take it a step further, since I have the room to basically put in anything that I want. 

Ill be purchasing the tweeters and midranges on Friday and I'll post pics later.

I was considering using the Scanspeak 26w 10" woofer one on each side.

But I sat in a car recently that had some Brax 6.1 mid-basses and I was floored with the low end.

My dilemma is should I go with multiple 6.5's on each side or the single 10" scan on either side?

I have the ability to position the drivers so that they are all the exact same distance from each ear. 

Any thoughts?

I'm planning to cross the mid-range at around 300 if I can get away with the mid-bass playing up that high.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Well, I'll toss 2 pennies in there.....I've always thought the simplest option typically works the best.....which in the case (IMO) would be the single Scan 10 on either side (if you optimize the enclosure and the tune). 

I had mentioned that I have heard cars with phenomenal mid bass attack and timbre that had 6.5's implemented. But if you are going to use the mid range drivers you were considering when we spoke, you may want to anchor them with the larger woofer (Scan 10). Take with a grain of salt


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

bertholomey said:


> Well, I'll toss 2 pennies in there.....I've always thought the simplest option typically works the best.....which in the case (IMO) would be the single Scan 10 on either side (if you optimize the enclosure and the tune).
> 
> I had mentioned that I have heard cars with phenomenal mid bass attack and timbre that had 6.5's implemented. But if you are going to use the mid range drivers you were considering when we spoke, you may want to anchor them with the larger woofer (Scan 10). Take with a grain of salt


i 100% second this. you were planning on the scan 5's right gerald?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Bass update. So I got a Brax Matrix 10.1 to try. Crutchfield had one priced to sell open box, so I had to try it. I also got lucky and found some old school Boston 10.4's from Igor ( Mless5 ) here on the forum. I have one on each side right now. I found that the new mid-bases sound much better. I have a Boston Acoustics GT 28 powering one and a JL Slash 600/1 powering the other. I tried swapping amps and didn't notice much of a difference, but then I tried removing the fiberfill that I had in each enclosure and the bass came to life. So much so, that I had to totally re-tune and turn down the levels from 20 - 125 hz. 
Then I changed the crossovers, too. I had the 10's playing to 125 to 50 Htz, and subs playing from 50-20 Hz ). It's fun as the bass kind of beats ya up. But for sound quality I made the crossover point at 45 Hz and there is definitely less impact and more smoothness. 
I now have much more detailed bass and the thinner drivers articulate the fine string resonances that were muddy with the other drivers. 

Removing the stuffing in the 10" enclosures worked so well, I removed the fiberglass insulation from the 15" enclosures. This has helped tremendously in getting the 15's to come alive. The low bass came to the party and the bass in general has improved dramatically. The 15's actually move now. I had the sub amps boosted at 31.5 by 15DB The output rose so dramatically after removing the stuffing, that I had to dial back all the boost at that frequency. 

Went to a SPL competition in my area yesterday. I was hoping to convert maybe one person to change from SPL to SQ. I gave a few demo's, but most showed no interest in SQ. And of the few people that took the time to take a listen, they didn't really seem to grasp the concept of staging and imaging. The comments were that it sounded clear and clean. 

There was a young couple that let me listen to his truck. He had pro drivers, yet his truck sounded really good. When he turned up the bass he could get a spl of 155 DB, but when he turned it down, it blended well with the music. He put a Helix DSP to time align the mid-basses with the sub woofers and with 4 18" subs, it sounded and felt great. It was by no means overpowering. I guess that's where a bass controller can come in handy. 

I am looking forward to going to the next SQ gathering, hopefully on July 10th in NJ. Looking forward to meeting up with SQ enthusiasts.


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## vwguy383 (Dec 4, 2008)

Hey Gerald, just wondering if your going to use those Boston Subs you got from me? I have been looking for there debut, but haven't seen them yet? 

Thanks
Justin


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

vwguy383 said:


> Hey Gerald, just wondering if your going to use those Boston Subs you got from me? I have been looking for there debut, but haven't seen them yet?
> 
> Thanks
> Justin


Hello Justin,
It was my plan to use the subs that I got from you in this build. However, since purchasing them, I have realized that the Boston Competitor Speakers offer incredible mid bass punch, but due to their thick cone structure, they lack the fine detail that I was searching for in this build. The competitors are, a great sub, and worked well for me for a while. I'll probably list them for sale at some point.


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## Velozity (Jul 6, 2007)

Pure insanity. I cannot wait to hear this at the PANJNY meet next month. Nice job.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Velozity said:


> Pure insanity. I cannot wait to hear this at the PANJNY meet next month. Nice job.


For me, insanity is my normal......lol Thanks for checking out my build. Looking forward to meeting you and checking out your build as well. It's nice that you have a link to your build log with just two words in your signature. Not sure how you did that. 
you must be good with computers.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> For me, insanity is my normal......lol Thanks for checking out my build. Looking forward to meeting you and checking out your build as well. It's nice that you have a link to your build log with just two words in your signature. Not sure how you did that.
> you must be good with computers.


Hyperlinks. Look up "text to hyperlink" on google. That's what's also in my sig

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

High Resolution Audio said:


> For me, insanity is my normal......lol Thanks for checking out my build. Looking forward to meeting you and checking out your build as well. It's nice that you have a link to your build log with just two words in your signature. Not sure how you did that.
> 
> you must be good with computers.




......yes he is.....and with electronics......and many other things


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> Hyperlinks. Look up "text to hyperlink" on google. That's what's also in my sig
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Thanks........couldn't figure out how to use the two words but added the hyperlink to my signature. Thanks, Nick


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## Velozity (Jul 6, 2007)

bertholomey said:


> ......yes he is.....and with electronics......and many other things



Aww shucks, thanks Jason! :blush:

If you ever come up here I've got some nice BRZ's to show ya...


Gerald, below is the source code for my signature. Where it says "Build Log" is the hyperlink tag. Look for the same spot in your code and type whatever you want there. I added the asterisk in front of URL below so that it would post the actual code.

Project Big Tree v3.0 [*URL="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/137980-2008-toyota-sequoia-kiss-build-log.html"]Build Log[/URL]
Panasonic--MiniDSP--Tru--Audible Physics--Dynaudio--Image Dynamics--Raamat


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Couple of new things in preparation for the GTG this Sunday in Pennsylvania. 

Eliminated the small 3/4" Boston tweeters and installed the Scan Speak R2904 flagship tweeters. Located them below the mid-ranges to get the center image a little lower. 

Center image was about 4" above the windshield. Now it's a few inches lower. Close to the center of the television when it's lowered.

Filled the old holes with wooden plugs and covered them with carpet.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Cool, get that thing right for the road trip in the fall! There is also a northern va meet coming in august.......don't know how far that is for ya......


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I also painted the rims black. Looks more "badass". lol

I have to stop tomorrow on the way to PA and pick up more lug nut chrome covers. Drivers side is done. Passenger side is without as of today.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

claydo said:


> Cool, get that thing right for the road trip in the fall! There is also a northern va meet coming in august.......don't know how far that is for ya......


Are you making it to Gouldsboro on Sunday?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Sweet.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Are you making it to Gouldsboro on Sunday?


Gouldsboro.........nope, what there, a comp?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Oh......hold on....is that the gtg you mentioned?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

claydo said:


> Gouldsboro.........nope, what there, a comp?


There is an awesome cook out Get Together at Gouldsboro State Park in Pennsylvania. I'm leaving Massachusetts tomorrow and driving all day Saturday. A pavilion was rented on Sunday for us and the place even has electricity. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/12-volt-events-team-diyma/277186-de-nj-pa-ny-sq-meet.html


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

8 hours for me......being sunday, and have to work monday....that's a no go....lol.

I have to plan the travel well in advance......everything is subject to "old lady approval".....lmao.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

claydo said:


> 8 hours for me......being sunday, and have to work monday....that's a no go....lol.
> 
> I have to plan the travel well in advance......everything is subject to "old lady approval".....lmao.


About 8 hour drive for me too. I took Monday off. Priorities, ya know? lol


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So a few more changes: 

I was running one Brax Matrix 10 for mid bass and one Boston Pro. Now I have two Brax.

Moved the right Tweeter/midrange tower 3" to the right so that the towers are in symmetrical in the cab. 

Started another preset tune for center seat. Got rid of the L/R EQ (the response curve was different for each side as Nick had tuned for the drivers seat.

I also changed the crossover point from 125 to 300 Htz on the mid range / mid bass. This helped dramatically getting rid of the rainbow sound stage and brought up the images on the far Left / Right . 

Tuned the F#1 system to match the FR curve that I had with the ALPINE 9835. Ever since I replaced the 9835 with the F#1 system, I lost the transparency. The "it sounds like musicians are playing live" went away.

I also made L and R response curves match. 

Then I played around with another ALPINE Head unit and went back to the Zapco crossover, but added a couple Audio Control old school EQT units one for each side. 

Right now, the EQ is only controlling the towers so that I can time align the mid basses and subs on the head unit with the rear channel.

After tuning the curve to match the 9835 as best I could, I did final tuning by ear. Easier for me to hear the changes by using knobs than a computer. 

Impressions:

The system is taken to a whole new level.......

My system is now extremely focused. The center image is now pin point precise. My center image was always oval shape and unfocused. The rest of the imaging was not quite as focused either.

The imaging and focus overall has improved dramatically. This fine tuning has made a world of difference. Instrument locations can be placed with incredible precision. Sometimes when listening to on an instrument playing on Left of center, for instance, and another instrument starts playing Right of Center, it can come as an unexpected, startling shock.

Not only did the placement L to Right become more focused, but also height. Guitars appeared lower than vocals as they should. 

Listening to Chesky Records Ultimate Demonstration Disc on the system now has now let me hear what the disc is trying to explain with words. It makes so much more sense now. 

The sound stage has gotten wider and more enveloping/ immersive as well. The FAR Left and Right use to end at the towers or maybe slightly rearward on some tracks. 

Now, the Far Left/Right encompasses the whole door opening in some tracks almost if there were speakers on my immediate left and right. Akin to the QUAD Electrostatic speakers I listened to at T.H.E. Show Newport beach.

Another improvement are all the subtle micro details that have now come into play. Foot tapping, finger sliding on strings, breathing, audience commenting, even flaws in the recordings can be heard. For instance, John Mayer Where the Light is Blu Ray, on the louder tracks ( not acoustical tracks ) when he is singing and his mouth touches the microphone, one can hear it being over driven. When he pulls back a couple inches it gets much clearer. At first I thought it was my system, and upon further investigation, I realized it was in the recording. 

But the most dramatic difference is that the depth of the sound stage has increased. It is almost like music changed from two dimensional to three. I notice that the instruments fall in place from front to back, in layers, as opposed to all instruments falling the same vertical plane. 

What blows me away the most is the focus it has now. I've sat in a few cars that had amazing focus and did not think I would be able to attain focus as my van, as the speakers are wide apart. I read that as one increases L/R driver width, the center image loses focus. It definitely has laser center image focus now. 

If only I could figure out how to transfer what I have now in the center seat, to the drivers seat ??? What is more important for doing that ? Time alignment or L/R EQ?


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

That is a very impressive update Gerald! I'm really glad the changes you made have equated to improvements in what you are experiencing and the system is more enjoyable - those are the best kind of improvements!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bertholomey said:


> That is a very impressive update Gerald! I'm really glad the changes you made have equated to improvements in what you are experiencing and the system is more enjoyable - those are the best kind of improvements!


Thanks, Jason. I'm so happy with the improvements. The problem is, sometimes it's hard to stop listening to music. It's like re-discovering my favorite songs all over again. I put in a CD that I've heard hundreds of times in the past and it truly is like I am listening to it for the first time. I think I'm getting addicted. lol


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

We certainly want you to bring it down in the Spring so the NC crowd can get a listen!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> If only I could figure out how to transfer what I have now in the center seat, to the drivers seat ??? What is more important for doing that ? Time alignment or L/R EQ?


Both.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> Both.


Hello Arun,

Good to hear from you. It's been a while. I've been doing a little tuning....be it by ear, old school style. With knobs. lol I wish you could hear it now.....

How have you been?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Hello Arun,
> 
> Good to hear from you. It's been a while. I've been doing a little tuning....be it by ear, old school style. With knobs. lol I wish you could hear it now.....
> 
> How have you been?



Hi Gerald,

I'm doing good thanks. Glad to hear about your tuning journey and the detailed results. The only suggestion I can make is, to enter as many competitions around you as you can, so that you can get tons of feedback from judges. That will keep you moving in the right direction.

Good Luck!!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> Hi Gerald,
> 
> I'm doing good thanks. Glad to hear about your tuning journey and the detailed results. The only suggestion I can make is, to enter as many competitions around you as you can, so that you can get tons of feedback from judges. That will keep you moving in the right direction.
> 
> Good Luck!!


Thanks so much. I do appreciate the judges comments. They point out weak areas that can be worked on. Problem is closest venue is about an 8 1/2 hour drive. Next closest is 19, I think. lol. And I got it sounding almost as good from the driver's seat, now, ......so I can compete.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Could someone please make me a decent offer on the complete Alpine F#1 Status system with all three components. I paid $2400 for the set......asking $1900 or best offer.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Build update.

Spent the day removing the F#1 status and installing the Old School SQ head unit.

I never ever thought that RCA interconnect cables made much of a difference. I even expressed that to Nick (SkizeR) when I first met him in the fall of 2016.

Boy was I wrong. With the radio shack cables, I had the following tone controls:

Before cable swap Bass: 1 Treble 3 Media Xpander On

After cable swap Bass: 0 Treble -1 Media Xpander OFF

The 4 clicks on the treble totally surprised me. So did having to turn off the Media Xpander

But what was more interesting was the depth and realism that appeared out of no where.

I guess my listening skills are evolving or something cool is happening.

The stage got much deeper and more 3 dimensional. Instruments and sounds appeared to fall in place from front to back at many varying distances. It was if there were a defining space around each instrument.

In the last few weeks, as the imaging and focus evolved with the system, more left/right up/down became apparent to me. 2 dimensions.

Today, this 3 dimensional stage has appeared with a front and back and relative distances where instruments lie on that stage with varying distances becoming very apparent.

The system sounds unreal from the center. Not as good from the driver's seat.

I moved to the driver's seat, did some T/A and clicked the balance to the right 1. (before cable swap it was 2-3 to the right to get center where it was suppose to fall.)

I popped in the IASCA disk and put on the Imaging Track. The left side imaged fairly well, but there was some problems with the right. It appears that there are different L/R responses that need to be corrected for. ( Unless the cause it is the directional cable I noticed I installed backwards on the right side input ) It was too late in the day to change it and I didn't think it would matter. I'll flip it before I do any tuning, just in case.

Next time I have some time I'm going to hook up the audio control analog 30 band EQ units and see if I can correct the imaging on the right side. ( If it needs it after the cable swap )

Now I'm wondering if the sound is going to change once the cables get "burned in". I never believed in high end cables mattering, nor with "burning in" of equipment. Now I'm open to the possibility.

The good news is with the old school SQ head unit the overall FR curve is near perfect in my opinion. I guess this head unit has a built in 24 bit DSP.

At least that leaves me one less area that needs tuning.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I'm getting holographic staging on all the music I've listened to in the last two days. Doobie Brothers, Steely Dan, California Project, Dire Straits, for example. I do not listen often to new music. 


I had a friend listen to the system today. He has been following the progression of the build. The first words out of his mouth were,

"There is so much space around the instruments." 

I played few songs, his next comment was;

"I feel what the artist is trying to convey. I almost had a tear form in the corner of my eye." then he changed the subject.

It sounds Awesome, I think he said at least three times during our 20 min listening session. 

I here you talking about psychoacoustics coming into play. I have a photographic memory. My memory can also remember incredible details in music. 

I started out this quest, trying to recreate the sound I had back in my 1st SQ build back in the day. I finally succeeded, and then some. You see, back in the day, I had no idea what time alignment was. Nor did I understand a sound stage. Nor focus, or imaging.....it was all about the tonality.

So I have the tonality as well as all the new fun qualities for which to listen that I have learned over the last few months. 

I use to listen to music at 95 Db. I find that I'm enjoying listening to music at a lower volume level. 

Thank you again, Arun for teaching me about time alignment and for all your helpful tips and suggestions. And thanks to ErinH, for your informative writings, and tips and suggestions, and to help me with my perspective.


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

It's great to read your passion for the sound. I have to admit I'm jealous of how much room you have in your truck, the stage has to be huge!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

1FinalInstall said:


> It's great to read your passion for the sound. I have to admit I'm jealous of how much room you have in your truck, the stage has to be huge!


I'm in awe of the stage. I never really though about the stereo system when purchasing the van. It was perfect vehicle to use to start my own electrical business. Now I think step vans are the perfect vehicle for a SQ install. I'm happy with the way it turned out for sure.

Thanks for posting. I remember you commenting in the beginning of the build.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

*Re: One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard*



oabeieo said:


> You changed out from a dexp99 to a old alpine 1bitdac . Eek!!!


the Alpine unit is 24 bit, I believe.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Build update. Removed the Old SQ Alpine head unit and re-installed the Alpine 9835. 

Spent two hours smoothing out the response curve with REW and Microphone for the driver's position. I have it smoothed to within 1 to 1.5 DB right now. I will spend a full day soon and fine tune it to within .5 DB (in the middle of the desert with balloons later, lol.)

Also by adjusting L/R EQ using the Analog Audio Control EQT by ear playing 31 bands of tones and one at a time and finding center. ( Driver's seat )

In this install, L/R EQ is nearly identical. I had to adjust only one frequency to get it to center.

The 9835 has built in time alignment for 6 channels. I even have the Stereo Subs time aligned. 



Listening impressions: 

I've given 4 demos and even people that are not into sound quality notice that there is negative space around each instrument. 

The number one comment now is that every instrument and sound is separated from each other. 

With this system, this particular feature now seems obvious and very apparent, as non audio enthusiasts notice this right away.




I've joined both MECA and IASCA and am shooting for the finals this season. 

With these improvements, I hope to improve upon the last MECA score of 86.25 and IASCA score of 206

I'm hoping that the system may score higher as the improvements to the sound-stage and imaging, and bass tonality have been quite dramatic. This time around, I will have the sub-woofers turned on.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

erlebo said:


> Gerald, if you really like your van's sound more than any other vehicle you have heard then maybe you shouldn't hire an experienced tuner. The result might be something you don't like.
> 
> I'm not trying to be funny here. Get a mic and learn the techniques. There's a learning curve but you'll be able to get a sound that you like and you'll know how you got there.


This was the best advice on this thread.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> I would love to tune that truck. My only concern is that the woofers are physically higher than the mids and tweets. However for the frequencies they play the mounting height may not be such an issue. Just that I've just never seen a floor stander for instance where the woofer was at the top and mids and tweets below it. Either ways I'd love to tune it.


I just found an example of the inverted set up that I have in a floor stander. Check it out!

http://www.estelon.com/products/x-series/extreme/


.


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

What class does the van compete in?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

1FinalInstall said:


> What class does the van compete in?


In MECA - Extreme

In IASCA - Pro-AM

Just Curious as to why you ask?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gerald, now that your getting it to where you want, maybe start looking into acoustic diffusers for the wall behind the seats, or anywhere else you can really manage to get them without effecting driving


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> gerald, now that your getting it to where you want, maybe start looking into acoustic diffusers for the wall behind the seats, or anywhere else you can really manage to get them without effecting driving


True.......I have done very little sound deadening. Just Partial Vibration Damper I was going to carpet the back wall. Wasn't sure weather I needed to decouple the plywood since it's plywood. 


But I need to do it on all the metal surfaces for sure. Damper/ foam / rolled rubber roofing / Carpet

I might put the just the rolled rubber roofing over the plywood before carpeting.

P.S. Thank you for teaching me how to tune.


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

High Resolution Audio said:


> In MECA - Extreme
> 
> In IASCA - Pro-AM
> 
> Just Curious as to why you ask?


How about power class? I was curious what sort of power (total) you were running with your current setup. I just laid down sound dampening in my build and I HIGHLY recommend Soundskins!! It was incredibly easy to install and if your not familiar with the product, it's rubber butyle & acoustic foam all in one. It's amazing stuff.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

1FinalInstall said:


> How about power class? I was curious what sort of power (total) you were running with your current setup. I just laid down sound dampening in my build and I HIGHLY recommend Soundskins!! It was incredibly easy to install and if your not familiar with the product, it's rubber butyle & acoustic foam all in one. It's amazing stuff.


I have 7 amplifiers right now about 2800 Watts RMS. 

Thanks for the tip with the dampener. I was looking at the all in one product.

However, I wanted to have as few seams as possible. With the roll rubber roofing material, I can get really a really thick product 1/8" or thicker in a huge 10' roll. 

I was going to butt joints together and glue a 3-4" strip over the ones that I did have to make, ( like on the step wells ). 

Some may think it's unnecessary, but I want to try and contain all the sound I am producing. Rather than have it dissipate into the vehicle.

Underneath the rubber roofing material, I was planning on using Overkill Pro or Melamine from Second Skin.

I also need to try and quiet down the 95 DB at 55 MPH engine noise.

I may even spray a thick layer of line-x on the bottom side of the cab to try and help.

These things do come at a cost. If someone were to purchase my minty F#1 system, I would be installing the damping material right now. 

I do wish to install a second set of batteries, shore power charging system, Automatic Charging relay for the alternator to charge both banks of batteries. 

I'll get there eventually.....


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I have 7 amplifiers right now about 2800 Watts RMS.
> 
> Thanks for the tip with the dampener. I was looking at the all in one product.
> 
> ...


With that power is it considered a unlimited class? Have you listed your current amp setup in this thread?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

1FinalInstall said:


> Have you listed your current amp setup in this thread?


The rolled rubber roofing is 1/8" thick already. 

Over the seams it will be another 1/8" ( 1/4" total thickness ) about 4" wide (2" overlap ) laid on top and glued with contact cement designed for the purpose. 

The Overkill Pro is 1/2" thick of foam. 

Automotive carpet over that. 

Amps are soundstream, Boston Acoustics GT ( Made in Italy at Steg Factory ) and JL Slash.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

1FinalInstall said:


> With that power is it considered a unlimited class? Have you listed your current amp setup in this thread?


Right now there are no power classes that I know of. I believe they did away with them. But someone else may correct me if I'm wrong.


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

High Resolution Audio said:


> The rolled rubber roofing is 1/8" thick already.
> 
> Over the seams it will be another 1/8" ( 1/4" total thickness ) about 4" wide (2" overlap ) laid on top and glued with contact cement designed for the purpose.
> 
> ...


Got it, I thought you meant the roofing material that is rolled on, not glued.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

1FinalInstall said:


> Got it, I thought you meant the roofing material that is rolled on, not glued.


I see....the rubber roofing will be used in place of the mass loaded vinyl..

Do you have a build log on here?


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I see....the rubber roofing will be used in place of the mass loaded vinyl..
> 
> Do you have a build log on here?


Yup.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

1FinalInstall said:


> Yup.


How about a link?


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

High Resolution Audio said:


> How about a link? lol


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...04762-little-project-dad-84-c10-widebody.html


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Gave a demo today to a Bulgarian college student that is going to school to learn how to master recordings for live performances.

First, I played Dire Straits - Your Latest Trick Live from the Sultans of Swing Album, which is my new favorite demo track.

He commented that it was a nice track to demo as little by little instruments start coming in until a full rich sound takes over a little later in the recording.

I then played several tracks off the MECA Tantric Tuning Disc. 

Other than a couple of the usual "Wow!" comments, eventually he said that "listening to music in the Time Machine was equivalent to watching ping pong." 

The stage is so wide that if one looks in the direction every time a different instrument plays there is a lot of head turning involved. If there wasn't much content on one side of the stage, he found himself waiting in anticipation for what was coming next on the opposite side to balance things out. I guess the proper term for this phenomenon would be the term "engaging". We spent a good 1/2 hour enjoying ourselves before we had to head out to the next job. 

I'm not use to listening to music this way, and I find that it does take time to get use to it after a lifetime of listening to music with very little separation between instruments and really no realism or depth. 

But I find that I'm getting use to it now, and I find myself not wanting to vary content as much as music is now so interesting to listen. A lot of times, I find myself throwing in a CD and just letting it play through. 

Songs I've listened to my whole life, sound so different. I'm for sure happy with the results, but it's still a work in progress. I just bought a set of NEW Old Stock Old School SQ sub-woofers off e-bay. Will be installing them next week.......pictures will follow. 

Also ordered the replacement ScanSpeak 2904 to finally replace the left one that has been burnt out for several months. The Dayton Audio Air Motion tweeter I've been using as a replacement for $19 was a very close match as the tweeters have been mismatched for the last few months, and the replacement has sounded near identical. 

I haven't been lacking anything in the high end, it's just the 2904 plays smoother and is lacking the very slight harshness that the air motion exhibits. 

I tried calling Second Skin to order some deadening material to take advantage of the valentines sale, but I just got a recording. Hours ago, I left a message, but no one has yet return my call.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Eric from Second Skin called me back yesterday. He was nice enough to give me the discounted pricing because I had called to place an order before the sale was up. I placed a large order for vibration dampener and sound deadening material. I should see it the beginning of March.


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Eric from Sound Skins called me back yesterday. He was nice enough to give me the discounted pricing because I had called to place an order before the sale was up. I placed a large order for vibration dampener and sound deadening material. I should see it the beginning of March.


Awesome, you're going to LOVE their product! Good move.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

1FinalInstall said:


> Awesome, you're going to LOVE their product! Good move.


100 plus decibels in the cab at 50 MPH. If I can cut it down by 9 - 11 DB I will be happy. 

I'm still going to cover over all of it with 1/8" thick EDPM Rubber.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Second Skin or SoundSkins? You mentioned both...


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> Second Skin or SoundSkins? You mentioned both...


Thanks, Benny for making me aware. I wasn't aware of my mistake. 

It was actually Second Skin. 

The order was suppose to process today, but I didn't get a confirmation e-mail. 

They were out of 2mm vibration dampener, but said it should be in stock by today (Wednesday )


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I got the matching 2904 Scan tweeter from Madisound. The left channel is where I had the air motion. Man, the left side of the stage has so much more presence now that I installed the replacement 2904. 

Also got the SQ subwoofers. Have to modify the enclosure as the magnets are a little bigger than the Boston subs they are replacing.

Dual 4 ohm INVERTED SURROUND Old School Goodness. Here are a couple of pics. Don't see too many inverted surrounds. Pretty interesting. I remember them from back in the day. 

Got a pair of New Old Stock in Boxes. M.B. Quart Discus


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

More goodies came yesterday. 3 boxes from SecondSkin. 

I box of Damplifier Pro and 

2 boxes of Luxury Liner Pro.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Replaced the right side sub-woofer today. Had to chisel out the plywood behind the magnet to make room. Hopefully will have time tomorrow to do the left side. 

15" Boston G2 dual 4 Ohm voice coil replaced with MB Quart Discus. 15"


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Both Discus subs are installed. They look cool, kinda like upside down frizbees.

The sub bass is very powerful now and super clean. They only play 45 and down, so I didn't think it would make as much of a dramatic difference, but it does. 

I had to turn off the Media Expander due to the powerful output. 

These blend better with the mid-basses.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Great Looking subs Gerald - a bit more subdued without the graphics that the Boston's had....but wow....whole time I'm thinking......."I wouldn't want to be the one installing those above my head" hopefully you had other hands holding them up there


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bertholomey said:


> Great Looking subs Gerald - a bit more subdued without the graphics that the Boston's had....but wow....whole time I'm thinking......."I wouldn't want to be the one installing those above my head" hopefully you had other hands holding them up there


My electrical apprentice, Paul ( who is in his early 20's ) has helped me along with the whole project. Without his help, I wouldn't have been able to take on such a daunting project. On and off we have been working on the build for about 5 years now. We both had sore arm muscles after we finished.

Good news is that all the sound, including the bass is well outside the glass. Last time you sat in it, the bass was inside the cab and was muddy.

Sound stage has grown vastly in width and depth. Speakers disappear. 

I'm toying with the idea of making it to your GTG. I'm going to the Sqology competition that same weekend on Sunday, April 9 in Chantilly, VA. It would be 12 more hours of driving (6 each way) . If I feel up to it physically, I may consider it.


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## capea4 (Sep 2, 2010)

the thought of that ride would make me cry Gerald!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

capea4 said:


> the thought of that ride would make me cry Gerald!


Yeah, me too. The good news is I can schedule no work for when I get back and give myself a couple days to recover. lol


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Well, at least a couple guys from Pennsylvania are planning to make that show in Chantilly - so you would have company on the drive if you all convoyed.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bertholomey said:


> Well, at least a couple guys from Pennsylvania are planning to make that show in Chantilly - so you would have company on the drive if you all convoyed.


10-4 Rubber Ducky. lol


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## knifedag007 (Mar 14, 2011)

Very cool build, interesting read though all 18 pages. I love how reflective the paint job looks in the pics on page 1.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

knifedag007 said:


> Very cool build, interesting read though all 18 pages. I love how reflective the paint job looks in the pics on page 1.


Thanks for taking the time to read through the build. Paint job today is all scratched up from driving through the untrimmed tree branches in some of my the customers driveways. Very woodsy around these parts.

I'm excited to be going to my first serious competition Sunday April 9th in Chantilly, Virginia. It's about 550 mile drive at 50-55 MPH it should take about 10+ hours with stops for food and fuel. I'm looking to best my previous scores.

I will post the results.


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## D34dl1fter (Jun 23, 2016)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Thanks for taking the time to read through the build. Paint job today is all scratched up from driving through the untrimmed tree branches in some of my the customers driveways. Very woodsy around these parts.
> 
> I'm excited to be going to my first serious competition Sunday April 9th in Chantilly, Virginia. It's about 550 mile drive at 50-55 MPH it should take about 10+ hours with stops for food and fuel. *I'm looking to best my previous scores.*
> I will post the results.


unless its the same judge or judges that will be difficult

some score on the low side
some score on the high side 
all hear differently

don't be dejected if the scores are lower as the only judge that matters in the end is you...good luck at the show brother and have fun!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So I went to a competition and my scores were the following:

MECA : 75.75

IASCA: 181

This was with T/A and a 45 min quick tune

I placed third and took home a certificate for third and I got the PHAT Truck award as well

So, I bit the bullet and decided to do a full fledged tune. I used pink noise stereo and REW with a microphone. 

It first I stared with the JBL ( Harmon ) curve. I thought it sounded too mid-rangy and too bright.

So then I used the Whitledge ( waterfall ) curve, but I modified it following the fletcher munson ( equal loudness ) contour with the exception of rolling off the top end.

Then I tweaked every frequency by ear slightly until I got it to my liking. 15 hours later, here we are.

My bass tracked across the windshield lower than my mids/highs. I decided to correct that issue my redesigning my mid-bass enclosures. Every board has an angle cut which made getting everything to fit perfect a big PIA.

1. The Brax matrix 10.1 require 1.2 Cubic Feet. The old enclosures were .5 for the Bostons. Made new enclosures at a little over 1.2.

2. The angle of the baffle is now the same as the mid- tweet pillars. ( angled down before which made for the problem ).

3. The Drivers were pushed back as far as the windshield as possible while maintaining the required volume.

4. They are laser aligned with the mid range and tweeters on axis.

Tonight, I have to glue and screw the enclosures and sand the corners. 

Tomorrow, I hope to cover them with carpet and install. 

On a second note, I got a new amplifier. McIntosh 431 ( 4x 100 watts configurable to 3 or 2 channel as well )

Friday, I installed it on the mids and tweets. The sound is smoother and gives more depth. But I'm use to big power, so I'm going to re-install the Soundstream amps on the tweeters and bridge the McIntosh and run the mid-ranges with 200 Watts per Channel to see it it helps.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Nice work cutting and fitting all of the compound angles on that enclosure!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So I got the mid-bass enclosures built last night. I decided to try and reduce the cabinet resonances, so I added second skin vibration dampener to the inside of the enclosures.

Now I have to find 1/8" birch plywood to adhere to the second skin. I will use acetone to wipe clean the surface of the second skin to prepare it for the 3M Formula 77 spray adhesive. 

Will run a bead of silicone where the edges of the 1/8" ply meet.

Will cut the birch just shy of all edges. Then spray the vibration dampener and back side of birch ply with the adhesive. And press the two together, adhering the dampener to the 1/8" ply.

This will for the most part keep the cabinet resonances inside the cabinet where they should stay. 

I'll post more photos of the finished product before sealing it up and covering it with carpet.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I bought 1/8" luan. It didn't want to bond well. Too flimsy. I had to apply even pressure around the whole perimeter to get it not to lift. I did the front and back walls. 

Decided to get thicker material for the other 4 sides. 

1/4" Birch Plywood. Much stiffer material. 

4200 fast cure (24 hour) instead of Geocil silicone that takes 1 to 2 weeks to cure. 

used wedges for the bottom and clamps for the top edge. I think this will work better. 

1 Box waiting for glue to set up.....


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Other than making the enclosures out of a Soapstone countertop sheet material (Soapstone has been known for centuries as the "Quiet Stone" due to its combination of mass, density, and damping properties), the best way to reduce cabinet or enclosure resonances is with a good internal bracing system and mass-loading. Check out the bracing in the photos of these MDF "knock-down" subwoofer enclosures from Parts Express...

*Denovo Audio knock-down MDF Subwoofer Enclosures @ Parts Express*

I would also use a high-quality 13-ply cabinet- or marine-grade Baltic Birch plywood for my enclosures. These have individual 1.5mm thick plies of actual void-free Baltic Birch and not other generic "filler" woods with voids for the inner plies.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Ideally, you don't want _any_ resonances originating inside the enclosure either. This energy will be easily transferred to & through the speaker cone.

I think that lining the interior of the enclosure with CLD was a good idea, though I'm not so sure about adding the internal thin wood sheeting.

I would use dense 1/4"- to 1/2"- thick rubber sheeting instead. You can also buy liquid two-part "pour-able" urethane rubber (think of toy superballs) that will adhere to the panels.

I believe that Scott Buwalda used this pour-able liquid urethane rubber in the entire floor pan of his 240SX SQ Competition vehicle way back in the day.

When approaching these types of resonance issues, I tend to think about how I would best go about muting or killing the ringing/vibration of a large church or school bell.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bbfoto said:


> Ideally, you don't want _any_ resonances originating inside the enclosure either. This energy will be easily transferred to & through the speaker cone.
> 
> I think that lining the interior of the enclosure with CLD was a good idea, though I'm not so sure about adding the internal thin wood sheeting.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info! I do have 1/2" thick rubber that I could try. 

I was going to brace the inner box and I got the idea from a High End Speaker manufacturer. 

Nice plywood. 13 layers is awesome, with no voids. I wish I would get that stuff around here. I would have used it in a heart beat.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bbfoto said:


> Ideally, you don't want _any_ resonances originating inside the enclosure either. This energy will be easily transferred to & through the speaker cone.
> 
> I think that lining the interior of the enclosure with CLD was a good idea, though I'm not so sure about adding the internal thin wood sheeting.
> 
> ...



I love you and I hate you at the same time. 

I went to the shop this morning. First thing I did was pick up a piece of 1/2" rubber that I had laying on the shop floor. (Some one just happen to give me about 100 sq foot just a couple months ago )

I placed that piece of rubber on a scrap piece of 3/4" ply and wrapped on it. 

Dead as a door nail. Wow, that stuff works so well !

This morning, once I saw for myself how well that stuff works, I had to use it. 

So there goes several day's worth of work, and a couple hundred dollars out the window. I'll never get that time back, but I look it as the cost of education.

My "box inside of a box" design does work really well. I took the clamps and braces off tonight, and wrapped on it. It takes a lot of resonances out of the enclosure, and I would have been happy had you not mentioned the other option. 

But Wow! Totally dead and rock solid with the rubber. 

Now I have to redesign my boxes to allow for the volume of the rubber.

Luckily, I have about 2 1/2" between the flat screen and the existing enclosure, so expanding it's size will be not be a problem. 

I love you for telling me about this option, and sharing this great idea with me. But at the same time, I hate you (jk) because all my past labor went for not and now I have to re-do everything. 

Thanks so very much, again, for your helpful comments. It's so nice to have someone with experience and great advice make useful posts on my thread.

I appreciate it so much and will have to give you credit where credit is do. 

Like I have mentioned before on a facebook page, putting together a sound system is a group effort and there are many people that have given advice, tips, and tricks during this building process, both directly and indirectly (with videos and such) 

I think I'm going to apply this rubber to the plywood back wall of the cab. I was going to use luxury liner pro. 

Maybe I should use the LL Pro on the inside ( cab side ) and the rubber on the backside (cargo side) of the plywood wall? 

I even have enough ( of both materials ) to do the entire floor .


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Hey this is turning out to be pretty darn sweet...


Nice!


How ya been man? Long time ehh ???


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

oabeieo said:


> Hey this is turning out to be pretty darn sweet...
> 
> 
> Nice!
> ...


I wish I could afford to work full time on my system to just get it done and over with! lol

I hope to not get old before my system is finished. One more year before the Big 5-0

Good to hear from ya! Still running those Beymas?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bbfoto said:


> Other than making the enclosures out of a Soapstone countertop sheet material (Soapstone has been known for centuries as the "Quiet Stone" due to its combination of mass, density, and damping properties), the best way to reduce cabinet or enclosure resonances is with a good internal bracing system and mass-loading. Check out the bracing in the photos of these MDF "knock-down" subwoofer enclosures from Parts Express...
> 
> *Denovo Audio knock-down MDF Subwoofer Enclosures @ Parts Express*
> 
> I would also use a high-quality 13-ply cabinet- or marine-grade Baltic Birch plywood for my enclosures. These have individual 1.5mm thick plies of actual void-free Baltic Birch and not other generic "filler" woods with voids for the inner plies.


So the only lumber place around me with anything furniture grade was about 1:15 min drive. 2:45 min round trip with traffic and stopping to get the plywood. 

The only choice was a maple 13 layer. Holy cow is that sheet of plywood heavy. Probably twice the weight of the A/C under lay I was using. Man oh man. Super dense. And super expensive ($240 for the sheet with tax. )

Thanks for making me aware of this product, and the 1/2" rubber. Now do I use 77 spray adhesive or marine 4200 to bond the rubber to the wood? I also have Liquid Nails. Maybe, I'll try a small sample of each and try separating them after drying..........


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Contact Cement works best for adhering the rubber to the plywood. 


Some copper plated goodness just arrived.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Got both boxes version 2 built. These things are rock solid. Like furniture. 

Got the rubber cut out for one box. Cleaned with Acetone and ready for contact cement. Tomorrow, I hope to glue. Allergies are really bad, today.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

25 clamps later.........

made a sandwich to compress the rubber while the contact cement dries.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I love you and I hate you at the same time.


I seem to get that reaction a lot. :blush: 



High Resolution Audio said:


> Got both boxes version 2 built. These things are rock solid. Like furniture.
> 
> Got the rubber cut out for one box. Cleaned with Acetone and ready for contact cement. Tomorrow, I hope to glue. Allergies are really bad, today.


Hey Gerald, this is looking fantastic! Sorry I haven't checked back sooner. But, wow, I hope I haven't caused you too much strife by making my suggestions! For better or worse, a lot of my comments in build logs and in general seem to be polarizing. :blush: :surprised: It must be the Aussie in me just being straight-forward and speaking my mind, and expecting people to simply dismiss my input or ideas at their own discretion. I just like to pass on the many tips and tricks that I've learned over the years from the amazing members here and elsewhere, in addition to my own extensive research, and through LOTS of trial & error! This hobby would become boring and not much fun if you didn't learn some things along the way. 

And yeah, unfortunately that good, furniture-grade plywood is crazy expensive and hard to source, but IMO the other stuff offers no real advantages over using good quality MDF. Making custom fiberglass enclosures starts to become a viable option when you compare the expense of these expensive plywoods! But often times you can get decent size remnants or scraps from custom cabinet and furniture makers if you aren't in a hurry.

All-in-all though, I'm sure that you'll be pleased with the outcome of your new enclosures as long as they take into consideration the requirements of your specific speakers.  These enclosures are obviously going to be quite heavy now, so do be sure to secure them to the vehicle extremely well and don't cut any corners in that regard. No joke, these things could very easily become deadly projectiles.

Oooooooo...that Clarion HX-D3! Nice. I have always loved the looks and styling of those Head Units. Beautiful!

Looking forward to your progress. It's definitely inspiring. 

.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bbfoto said:


> I seem to get that reaction a lot. :blush:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My God I appreciate your tips and suggestions. It took a lot more effort and cost, but I'm already convinced that the end results will be well worth it. 

And the practice of building the first ones allowed for much tighter clearances. The angles and corners were so perfect, it's going to be a shame to cover everything with carpet. But it will fit in well with the rest of the build and like part of a cohesive system.

They will be attached super securely. I love to overbuild everything. During the mock up phase they looked like wings from an airplane fighter jet or something. Pretty cool. 

I'm happy with the sound of the Alpine 9835, but I've read that people who upgraded from the 9835 to the HX-D3 (DRZ-9255 SE, McIntosh MX-5000) found even better stereo separation and depth. 

I'll chime in later with my listening impressions, but for now, I'm focused on finishing the new enclosures, so installing the head unit will have to wait.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Well, I built the passenger box using the rubber, but I did not like the way it sounded when I wrapped on it. I guess the high end speaker manufacturer was right. So I cut more 1/4" birch plywood and lined the inside. Last night another night of clamping.

Today, I put together the box for the final time using construction adhesive and went over the inner box seams with 4200. 

Tomorrow Box 1 will be ready to be sanded and covered in carpet, but I'll probably work on box 2 and get that to the same point.

The first photo, the box wasn't screwed all together yet, so the top right corner looks off.

It kinda looks like a stealth fighter.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Both Enclosures finished, corners sanded, covered in carpet, installed and playing. 

Enclosures are very thick, very heavy, and very dead. The end result is a better sound-stage. 

Above the glass from far left to far right at it's highest.

As well as a smoother sounding presentation.

A lot of effort......I'm glad that part is finished.

Tomorrow, I will test the new head unit.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Which head unit will you be going with ?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Coppertone said:


> Which head unit will you be going with ?


There's photos of it in an earlier post (#446).

Clarion HX-D3


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Well the Clarion head unit does not play CD's, but I did use the tuner and listened to a few of radio stations for a while. It would seem like I would need to do a complete re-tune with this unit.

So the Alpine 9835 is still installed. And the Time Machine is finally dialed to my liking from the Driver's Seat. 

After about a year and a half or more of learning how to tune, I finally got the tonality the way I like it and the time alignment just right. 

It took a very long time to get the Drivers seat sounding very similar to the Center seat.

I'm looking forward to the Boston Area GTG this Saturday and next SQOLOGY in Virginia to see how she scores.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Curious as to why it doesn't play CDs.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bertholomey said:


> Curious as to why it doesn't play CDs.


It accepts a CD then tries to read it, fails, and turns on Tuner and spits out CD. I tried many CD's. I guess the unit is screwed up. 

No worries as the Alpine unit is Dialed*In!!!!!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So last weekend, I went to a SQ competition in Virginia. The Judge said "the volume.......Where is it?

I had the system playing 90-95 DB. I guess that's not enough.

So tonight I bumped up all the gains. It's now playing at 106-112 DB

Some tracks, like Lindsey Sterling average 111-117 and peak out my SPL meter which goes up to 120. Judge should be happy now.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

I must admit I am also a volume type of guy. Knowing that it is there and not hearing it bothers me. Glad to see that you had tons of head room for improvement.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So I bridged the McIntosh amp and put it on the mids. 

Re-installed the two Soundstreams on the tweeters.

Back to 7 Amplifiers.

Bumped up the gains on the Sub amps as well and boosted 20 Htz +10 DB on the Amps.

Now the van will give a "Claydo" type experience. Back to being extremely Dynamic. 

"Tusk" - Fleetwood Mac feels like you are in the ring with a heavyweight fighter.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So I've had this problem with my subs for a long time. I haven't been able too get my subs to blend with the mid-basses for quite a long time. It seems like if I crossed them at 50 or above, I could hear them. So I crossed them at 45 and it got better, but problem was still there. 

On the Alpine the Time Alignment was to the nearest tenth of a M/S, but no matter how much tuning I did, I could not get rid of it. 

I had 3 sets of different RCA cables traveling to the rear to carry the audio signal. Front, Rear, Sub......using the SUB output on the head unit allowed me to adjust volume as needed between recordings. 

I recently got a couple of new head units to try:

Alpine 7909 Anniversary Edition

Clarion HX-D2 ( DRZ -9255 )

The 7909 has no sub out so I had to ditch that RCA cable and use the Rear Channel routed to the Zapco 4 way Electronic Crossover and use that signal to split the signal to the sub amps.

Wouldn't you know, the subs blended in perfectly. I even crossed them much higher up ( around 80 ) and still so "sub pull".

So either the head unit, or RCA cables have been the problem all this time. Latentcy in the electronics or impedance in the cable have been driving me nuts for months.

As far as cables making a difference, I have been slowly Acquiring more AudioQuest Cables and implementing them in my system. When I had the time alignment (excluding subs ) dialed in, a simple 1 Meter cable swap from my crossover to my mid-bass amplifiers threw the T/A off.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I want to thank Klifton Keplinger for hooking me up with a Helix DSP PRO MK II and Director.

I got rid of my analog EQTs and electronic crossover. 

This was the tool I needed to help me to dial in my system. Everything is just so much more precise. 

When listening, the system is so much more balanced now, that I could hear a difference in the Left Channel. Because I had built the mid-range / tweeter towers asymmetrical as to block the least amount of view, the left mid-range and tweeter were about 1 1/4" and 1" closer from the side glass. 

I removed the tower and cut it at the same angle as the right tower, positioning the drivers within 1/16th of an inch symmetrical in the cab.

Immediately, there was more air around each instrument. There was a person tapping on a bongo in the right of center position of the sound stage. My helper and I noticed that the airspace around the bongo could be heard reverberating with the sound that the bongo was making.

I'm just beginning the fine tuning process, and learning as I go, but this DSP is definitely the correct tool that I have needed all along to get better focus and placement. 

Looking forward to learning how to tune properly and getting it dialed in.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

At the last two competitions in West Virginia, the heat in my truck was almost unbearable. With the doors open, there was a little breeze, but with the doors shut as to not bother anyone, it was hot. 

I've decided to add Air Conditioning to the Time Machine. I picked up a 13,500 BTU home portable AC/Heat Pump for a great price. 

Spent the day fabricating a shelf and wall to lift the unit up to get the vents to blow air above the chair and isolate the noise in the rear.

When at competitions, the Judges and casual listeners will be able to enjoy the system rather than wanting to exit the vehicle asap. 

I have a 3000 watt inverter that should be big enough to run the unit, when not near an electrical outlet.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So I wanted to open up the subwoofer boxes and let those dual overhead 15's breathe a bit. 

They require about 5 cubic feet and only have about one now. So I started adding additional volume to the existing box on the passenger side.

I had to install the vibration dampener and sound deadening material first in order to build the box off that.

Removed the passenger and center seat.

Took a hatch out of the floor and vibration dampened the underside and put some insulation on the underside. Then put a couple layers on the top side. 

Lots of wire brushing and wiping down with acetone. 

The expanded box goes across the roof to the back wall down the wall in the corner and ends up under the passenger seat.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Dude. You built a wall. Just run them IB to the back part of the truck on the wall.


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

Just curious, how many cuft3 will you be able to add to the existing sub enclosures?


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

benny z said:


> Dude. You built a wall. Just run them IB to the back part of the truck on the wall.


That's where I was going, too funny. Those poor subs need to breath.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> Dude. You built a wall. Just run them IB to the back part of the truck on the wall.


That's an idea. I was toying with that idea if I purchased a 24" Sub. I would move the AC up and put the 24 behind the center seat.

I prefer to have the clean, tight bass that an acoustic suspension box provides. More control over the driver, back to its resting position.

Besides......that idea would be too easy.....coming from a person that removes windshields and dashboards, cuts holes in cars, fabricates and modifies metal just to install speakers.....lol


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

1FinalInstall said:


> Just curious, how many cuft3 will you be able to add to the existing sub enclosures?


The specs say the speakers need 5.3 cubic foot.

I'm adding another 3.5

Existing enclosure is about 1 cubic feet. 

So I'll have about 4.5 cubes. 

The rear of the truck is 525 cubic feet minus shelving and tools etc.


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

High Resolution Audio said:


> The specs say the speakers need 5.3 cubic foot.
> 
> I'm adding another 3.5
> 
> ...


Ever tossed the idea of getting a sub that requires 1 cuft3? Your truck is so technically specific, it seems like the proper fit for it. I think a 12 would be perfect. I've personally always been told that the enclosure is everything, and it's better to have a smaller driver in the right box. I know my tiny 8's play surprisingly low, because of just that.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

1FinalInstall said:


> Ever tossed the idea of getting a sub that requires 1 cuft3? Your truck is so technically specific, it seems like the proper fit for it. I think a 12 would be perfect. I've personally always been told that the enclosure is everything, and it's better to have a smaller driver in the right box. I know my tiny 8's play surprisingly low, because of just that.


Right now, the Brax 10" mid basses are in rock solid enclosures that are 1.3 cubic feet.

I was toying with the idea ( wondering if the simpler the better ) that I might replace those Brax 10" with the 11" or 13" Scan Speaks and do away with the 15" subs. (Even thought about that when designing the 10" enclosures as I looked at the specs on the scans and made sure I had room. )

So your idea is on point. I have to see what the passenger 15 sounds like with the larger enclosure, before I commit to fabricating the driver's side.

Thanks for the suggestion. I might just do that and have a total of 6 drivers instead of 8. Food for thought......... These are both designed for 1.5 cu ft sealed boxes.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...-speak-32w/4878t01-revelator-13-woofer-4-ohm/

or this one:

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-11-woofers/scan-speak-28w/4878t-revelator-11-subwoofer/


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

benny z said:


> Dude. You built a wall. Just run them IB to the back part of the truck on the wall.


Agreed, however my concern is that all of that crap, errr, electrician's tools and parts etc in the back might rattle/buzz/clank.

Gerald, do you remove all of that stuff in the back during a meet or competition?

I'll try to reply to your PM soon...been a bit busy on my end.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bbfoto said:


> Agreed, however my concern is that all of that crap, errr, electrician's tools and parts etc in the back might rattle/buzz/clank.
> 
> Gerald, do you remove all of that stuff in the back during a meet or competition?
> 
> I'll try to reply to your PM soon...been a bit busy on my end.


I had to use my tools at a meet to fix the electricity so we could all use power. That crap ( stuff ) comes in handy at times!

The truck is built pretty solid. None of that stuff moves because of the sound system. 

It might vibrate due to traveling over the road. 

But it's very quiet in back during playback. The aluminum is about 1/8" thick almost everywhere.

Regarding the P.M. whenever you get a chance....


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I had a moving blanket hanging on the back wall to tame reflections. Adding the air conditioner and subwoofer enclosure caused me to remove the moving blanket. 

I have harsh reflections now, that I didn't have before. I was planning on covering the back wall with the black speaker carpet ( which happens to be 1/8" thick ).

My concern is that just using the carpet wont be enough to absorb the reflections. ( midrange and tweeter ) 

So I'm having a dilemma in choosing what, if any, material that I should put underneath the carpet.

At my disposal I have the following:

1. Vibration dampener
2. 3/8" rubber material
3. Mass Loaded Vinyl ( Luxury liner pro )

or I could order 

4. https://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-Sou...50&sr=8-2&keywords=sound+deadening+foam+black


My thoughts are the moving blanket did a great job of taming everything, I don't think that I would need to go to the extreme of adding the Foam Panels.

I'm having a hard time choosing which method to use. 

Does anyone have any thoughts, tips, suggestions, or ideas?

If I use the MLV, do I use the foam against the ply or the vinyl?

I guess I will have to do some experimentation. My thoughts are to use the MLV with the vinyl attached to the plywood side. That way the closed cell foam can absorb the mids and highs. Then I can cover it with the carpet. If that absorbs too much, my thoughts are to use the 3/8" rubber and then the carpet. 

I will do some testing and disclose my findings.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Got the passenger side sub enclosure box glued, screwed, and sealed. Re -installed passenger side sub-woofer. Fired up the system again. 

A ton of work....was it worth the effort? Here are my listening impressions:

The passenger side sub blends better as it disappears and the way low end is a little more pronounced. The bass is slightly more outside the windshield on that side.

The drivers side is a little more punchier and therefore when it is playing it is like the kick drum is a little closer to the listener at super high volume 100- 120 DB. Driver's side is slightly more localizeable. 

Since I rather have the subs blend better, I will now rip out the driver's seat and start the entire process on the opposite side. 

A lot of work for a slight gain in staging, but it looks as if it will be worth it in the end.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

With an extended listening period last evening, I also found that the bass notes carry longer ( more sustain - less decay ).

So that makes the system "well rounded" as my apprentice Paul noticed this morning. 

Both the highs and the lows match in duration.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I had a moving blanket hanging on the back wall to tame reflections..............I'm having a hard time choosing which method to use.


If you think the blanket did a good job, how thick was it? Chances are you don't need to go thicker. 



High Resolution Audio said:


> Got the passenger side sub enclosure box glued, screwed, and sealed. Re -installed passenger side sub-woofer. Fired up the system again.
> 
> A ton of work....was it worth the effort? Here are my listening impressions:
> 
> ...


Or if the subs are on independent channels that you can time and eq, if you're LP'ing the subs at say 50-70hz, cut the drivers side by 1db @ 60 to max @100 hz and beyond, that should stop the localization. Punchy bass is ~500-800 hz. Try raising 500 a bit on the passenger side. 



High Resolution Audio said:


> With an extended listening period last evening, I also found that the bass notes carry longer ( more sustain - less decay ).
> 
> So that makes the system "well rounded" as my apprentice Paul noticed this morning.
> 
> Both the highs and the lows match in duration.


Decay is something you shouldn't notice if its done right. If you're noticing it it could be an issue of timing between the drivers playing the fundamental and those playing the mid range harmonics. Happens when the fundamental is late and still playing after the harmonics have faded. Cut the delay on the drivers playing 50-100 hz in small steps and see if it goes away.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> If you think the blanket did a good job, how thick was it? Chances are you don't need to go thicker.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Arun,

Thanks for the replies. 

The moving blanket is padded, so it is thick. I'm going to experiment with the different materials to absorb reflections when I finish making the driver side sub-woofer box larger. See which method works best.

The difference in my bass is due to enclosure volume changing. The passenger side now has close to the recommended volume, so it plays really well. 

The drivers side ( as of now ) has the small enclosure, so the speaker is overly damped. The acoustic " suspension " is too tight as this speaker was designed for a 5.3 cubic foot box and is only in a 1 cubic foot box. Thus the driver returns too quickly to its resting position. Thus it does not vibrate as much, or as long as it should. ( which makes for the shorter decay in the bass notes )

The punch I have on the drivers side now is the 45 -50 Htz punch from the sub-woofer in the smaller than recommended box. Both Left and Right Subs are crossed at about 72 htz. Comparison was done in the center seat so distances and time alignment were identical. 

I turned up the volume on the subs to almost max in order to compare the differences in sound from the enclosure volumes being different. When the subs are playing at their normal volume, neither can be localized as they are both time aligned correctly. 

They are both on independent channels and in stereo. I was muting with my DSP the subs independently, alternating with playing them both and cutting one side on and off. 

Then muting both and turning one side on and off. 

I was sharing my findings with the recommended enclosure size vs. one that is 5 times too small. 

So my post was a listening comparison of enclosure volume size. Once I make the driver's side enclosure the same size as the passenger's, I will gain the benefit of having those subtle improvements in the bass frequencies, that I gained by enlarging the enclosure on the opposite side.

Great hearing from you Arun and I hope to see you if you ever come to the States ( or Canada to visit your son ).


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I like symmetry and I think it is very important when it comes to getting everything sonically balanced.

The Jaguar driver's seat and metal plate didn't allow for me to build a sub enclosure for the driver's side that was symmetrical to the passenger side due to clearances.

I had an air ride seat that came with another vehicle I purchased that didn't have on board air. 

So I decided to kill two birds with one stone. I added the air ride seat ( to make for a better plush ride to and from competitions ) and got the clearances necessary to make the driver's sub enclosure the same as the passenger side.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

nice!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Not much to look at, but spend the day removing the drivers seat and the bus heater under it. Had to join the heater hoses together underneath so that all the antifreeze didn't drain out. 

Removed old RCA cables, routed my final set of Audioquest RCA cables from the TV to the rear for input to the DSP. 

Wire brushed, vacuumed the floor, wiped all down with acetone, and installed 2 layers of vibration dampener and one layer of luxury liner pro under where the driver's side sub-woofer box will be located.

Ready now to start fabricating the driver's side sub box next time I have time to work on the truck.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Last week, it took my helper and I 1 full day ( 8 Hours ) to cut all the plywood with the table saw and chop saw to rough sizes.

Today, we uninstalled the driver's side sub, cut open the side of the box, sized and installed most of the nailer cleats, trim fit all the rough pieces to size.

Today, it also took us a full 8 hours. 

Next time we work on the truck, we should be able to put all the bracing in and glue and screw all the pieces together. Fingers crossed. 

That will take us another 8 hours. 

Lots of custom fabrication, none of it is quick or easy, many angles and weird bracing.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Looks great, G!

Did you decide on anything yet to treat the back wall in lieu of the mover's blankets/furniture pads?

Before your back wall/dividing wall became so complex, I was going to suggest to go ahead and use the mover's blankets if they seemed to be beneficial. You could simply cut them to size and screw them directly to your plywood wall with wood screws and large fender washers.

Keep the outer perimeter of the plywood back wall clear about 2" all around. Then build 1"x2" wood frames to stretch whatever color speaker grill cloth or other fabric you want over them...like stretching canvas over a frame for oil paintings. Spandex from your local sewing crafts/fabric store works extremely good for this as well.

The lightweight frames could then be "attached" to the back wall using strong neodymium magnets (Parts Express or Hobby Lobby) that are counter sunk and epoxied flush into the rear wall and the back side of the frames. This would eliminate any screws or fasteners showing on the face of your panels/frames in order to provide a clean look, and it would also make the frames easily removable to change/remove/swap the mover's blankets for other absorbtion material.

I made my own acoustic absorbing wall and ceiling "cloud" panels for my home recording studio/drum room using this same basic "frame" method, although I used 4"-8" thick batts of Roxul rock/mineral wool behind the speaker grill cloth. My frames were much heavier as they were deeper and stuffed with the Roxul, so I used screw eyes and hooks to hang the panels instead of magnets. I can basically change my drum/recording room from a very "live", reflective environment, to a very dry or dead-sounding room...or anywhere in between by selectively moving or removing the various panels.

Your frames would be very light weight since the mover's blankets would be attached to the plywood back wall instead of the frames themselves. If it would fit behind the frames, you might even try to "double up" the thickness of the mover's blankets on the back wall.

Ideally, these panels (and the absorption media) would be spaced out away from the back wall several inches. This allows the panels to absorb the sound that's entering the panel from the front side, and also absorb some of the energy that "bounces" back into the panel's backside off of the wall (reflected energy). This spacing also helps a bit to absorb slightly lower frequencies, but it's still only going to be effective in the upper midrange and treble frequencies. But even a slight reduction of reflected energy in this range can dramatically improve imaging cues and _slightly_ reduce crosstalk.

You might try attaching a mover's blanket to the back wall, and then also stapling one (tightly stretched into the wood frame itself, which could then be spaced out an inch or so from the back wall (_IF_ there is room/clearance to do that!).

Just remember that it's not _always_ beneficial to eliminate or reduce all reflections. 

Anyway, it's just an idea that may or may not work for you.

Have fun with it.

Oh, check out this interesting video...listen with headphones...and check out the difference especially between the big, "live" room, and that same room with the absorption panels placed somewhat closely around the drum kit.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bbfoto said:


> Looks great, G!
> 
> Did you decide on anything yet to treat the back wall in lieu of the mover's blankets/furniture pads?
> 
> ...



Thank you for taking the time to write out this awesome reply. You have such incredible ideas that are so creative, well thought out, easy to do, and work very well. 

Unfortunately, in order to add more inches in front of the back wall, I would have to move the wall location further back. When the drivers seat is moved as far back as possible, it hits the wall just before the chair slides to the end of the the track.

And of course as everyone knows, getting back as far as possible from the speaker locations for better imaging is preferable.



I've decided to adhere the 3/8" rubber applied the the entire back wall. The rubber will have two positive benefits. 

1. It will help tame the reflections in the mid-range and high end that make the sound slightly harsh and bright. 

2. It will help deaden the new sub enclosures cabinet resonances. 

So over the rubber, I will adhere more of the black speaker carpet that I have used everywhere else in the build for a cohesive, finished look.



That video was really cool. I did like the sound of the drums in the big reflective room best with the strategically placed panels. 

I'm definitely a fan of some reflections. Makes for a more life like, realistic sound. 

Again, you have inspired me and given me some great ideas. You are a great consultant. I wish we lived in the same state so I could run all my plans by you first in order to incorporate them into my build.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Today my helper and I spent the entire day on the build. Didn't get the enclosure totally glued and screwed, but got close. 

Photos show some of the custom detail that make the build not as straightforward as it might seem by just looking at the finished product.

Not to mention removing and re-installing shelving in the back to allow access to run screws through the wall into the new cabinetry.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Got the driver's side sub woofer box glued and screwed, New speaker binding posts installed in the wall and re-installed the subs. 

Got the system up and running again. After a quick polarity check and RCA swap I sat on a milk crate in the center position as there are still no seats on the floor.

Lindsey Sterling Crystallize happened to be on queue and started playing. 

The head unit volume goes up to 35 and I normally listen to music at about 18 which is near 100DB.

I started slowly raising the volume and at 19 I was saying to myself " Holy cow!!!! What an improvement. "

The low bass was significantly improved. I was extremely shocked as I noticed subtle differences with just the one enclosure enlarged. 

Now I began turning it up little by little, 20......21.....22......23 and I was blown away. 

I hit 24 and a huge smile came on my face. My helper was standing outside and said " I can feel the hair on my head vibrate"

Then I turned it up to 25 and I was moved to another dimension.

I got out and started to try to explain what I was feeling. It did something to my body that I couldn't put into words. I got out of the vehicle and I felt kind of euphoric.

I went next door to the plumber and got him to come over for a listen. He got out and said "that was awesome" " look the hairs are standing up on my arm" " I can feel the corners of my eyeballs vibrating."

The plumber told me that I have to let Jacob, his helper, take a listen.

Jacob came over climbed in sat down on the milk crate. I started the track over again from the beginning, and jumped out. It seemed as the volume knob had a direct relationship to the size of the smile on his face. He slowly crept the volume knob up to 25, but turned it down shortly, because he said it was almost overwhelming. 

Can you describe what you are feeling?

He said " It's like the music is penetrating my soul."

I said, " Yeah, that's what I was feeling earlier that I couldn't put into words."

Me and the plumber looked at each other and smiled. Plumber said to me,

" You should name this truck the "Soul Penetrator". When people ask you what that means you should just have them sit in the truck and play that song."


I didn't, for the life of me, expect such a dramatic difference in making the enclosures bigger, ( especially after listening with just one done as the differences were so subtle ) but I had the shock of a lifetime with both of them being symmetrical and firing and working in unison. 

I haven't taken any physical measurements, but I would imagine that the low bass 8-40 Hz has increased dramatically in volume.

The same Lindsey Sterling Track played at volume 32 gave me a constant reading of 117 with bass peaks at 120

Now, I would venture to guess that the system at volume 25 is playing 120 with peaks up to 125. It seems like I have to be very careful of damaging my hearing from now forward. 

I'm curious to see just how loud the system will play? I'll have to put a meter on it soon, but my next order of business is to install the driver's seat. 

Before I do that, I have to finish the deadening, rubber, and carpet. Never ending labor of love.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Driver's side sub box expansion and rear wall covered in 3/8" rubber and then speaker carpet.

Also put hook and loom black carpet on the floor over the luxury liner pro and mounted and installed the air seat. Forgot to take a photo of the air seat installed, but it is working!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Not a ton to look at, but proof that I am still working on the van. I got the entire back wall and ceiling carpeted and started working on the luxury liner pro for the passenger side.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Adding a little light on the subject, during the process of deadening and carpeting.

Ground control to major Tom.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Hah! That’s awesome. Kinda fitting for an electrician.


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

How much of an improvement did the sound deadening make Gerald? Looking good.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

1FinalInstall said:


> How much of an improvement did the sound deadening make Gerald? Looking good.


I'm predicting at least 20x 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Thanks, Ben....... I was never into multi-coloured lights in the past, but I had to fix the ugly seam where the old carpet and new met in the ceiling with something. Seems like a good idea. It's actually pretty cool. 


Jason, The deadening is not yet finished. I still have a small area on the firewall and drivers side kick to finish. Eventually, I'll remove the window track hardware and put fixed windows in, and deaden the doors. But mostly to quiet down road noise. 

But for the amount of work, I really didn't gain much improvement with regards to audio quality. Maybe because the van is made out of 1/8" thick Aluminum? 

But I did get a slight reduction in engine noise. In this install, not worth the time and expense, in my opinion. I have some extra LLP, so eventually, I may rip the carpet off the doghouse and apply the Luxury Liner Pro and re-carpet to that for some added engine noise reduction. Thanks for asking.


Nick, Funny....haha No audible improvement in sound quality with deadener. Least bang for my buck. Cable swap was an instant improvement, with regards to hardware installation/swap. 

Now it seems like I'll get most dramatic results by fine tuning with the external DSP. You were right. But I want to finish the floor and carpet install before I start the fine tuning process.


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Thanks, Ben....... I was never into multi-coloured lights in the past, but I had to fix the ugly seam where the old carpet and new met in the ceiling with something. Seems like a good idea. It's actually pretty cool.
> 
> 
> Jason, The deadening is not yet finished. I still have a small area on the firewall and drivers side kick to finish. Eventually, I'll remove the window track hardware and put fixed windows in, and deaden the doors. But mostly to quiet down road noise.
> ...


Do you happen to have dampening inside any of your enclosures? Sorry if you answered this in previous posts/pictures.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

1FinalInstall said:


> Do you happen to have dampening inside any of your enclosures? Sorry if you answered this in previous posts/pictures.


I made a mistake with my evaluation of the deadener. Tonight I hooked up the Television and Blu-Ray player and made a preset on the Helix ( with help from Kilfton). I put on music I've heard many times and again.

I do notice a difference, all around. But what stands out is the drum kit. Sounds like they are more "in the room". BBfoto posted a video of drums in different environments. Later, I'll listen to all the videos and pick a started as room and ended up room.

My midbass enclosures are essentially a box inside a box with 3/8" thick rubber in between so to answer your question they are very dampened. 

The sub enclosures have 3/8" rubber on all of the outside of the enclosure except for the ceiling. 

The description of the sound overall has changed to as if the listener is seated in the venue it was recorded in. I guess the technical term for that is it has more "ambience". 

Drums stand out for sure as they have changed the most.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Tonight I was the first time I hooked up the Oppo Blu Ray Player to the Helix.

After an extended listening period, I'm amazed by the separation of instruments. 

This is the first time I've heard music like this and it's going to take a while to get used to. Instead of everything blending as one cohesive unit, it is like each and every instrument ( including voices ) is unrelated and unique from everything else. 

I kind of like it.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

You’re running it in 2ch audio mode?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> You’re running it in 2ch audio mode?


That must be it. You picked up on that one right away. 

I tried switching back and forth between stereo and DTS and preferred the DTS on most music. 

When I played music in stereo mode, it was rather melded together cohesively.

Norah Jones was the only concert that sounded better in 2 channel mode.

It's funny because I only have two channels, but it almost sounds like more.

I get more of a spacious effect with the multi-channel modes. 

Good thinking, Ben!


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

You’ll be upmixing next! Lolol


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I don't know if my experience with source/Helix has anything to do with yours Gerald, but I'll post this anyway. 

Using the Pioneer P99 with CDs was very good through the Helix Pro2. When I connected the FiiO X5iii through coax, I experienced the separation of instruments, better layering of the sound, and a bit larger sound stage as well - especially playing higher resolution tracks. I don't believe it was simple psycho acoustics (I wanted it to sound better, therefor it did), I have played the same track being careful with the volume to have it matched, and several have remarked on it. 

So I'm glad you are enjoying the Oppo in this way, and if my observation was completely not relevant - then apologies  I need another work trip to Boston to get another demo!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> You’ll be upmixing next! Lolol


I had to look up what upmixing was! lol

I don't have enough channels left in my processor unless, I run the rear channels passively. 

Now I'm entertaining the idea. You had to plant a seed, didn't you! lol

How many channels does that new soon to be released Brax processor have?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

1FinalInstall said:


> How much of an improvement did the sound deadening make Gerald? Looking good.


Thanks for the compliment!

So I listened to the drum video ( bbfoto ) and I would say the drum sounds changed from Air Studio one to Air Studio one with panels in my best approximation.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bertholomey said:


> I don't know if my experience with source/Helix has anything to do with yours Gerald, but I'll post this anyway.
> 
> Using the Pioneer P99 with CDs was very good through the Helix Pro2. When I connected the FiiO X5iii through coax, I experienced the separation of instruments, better layering of the sound, and a bit larger sound stage as well - especially playing higher resolution tracks. I don't believe it was simple psycho acoustics (I wanted it to sound better, therefor it did), I have played the same track being careful with the volume to have it matched, and several have remarked on it.
> 
> So I'm glad you are enjoying the Oppo in this way, and if my observation was completely not relevant - then apologies  I need another work trip to Boston to get another demo!


Thanks Jason for sharing your experience with me. I appreciate input and feedback in any regards to sound systems. You guys have been doing this a lot longer than I have so I'm always open to learning new things.

I guess the oppo would be considered high resolution as is the bitrate and sampling frequency is higher than Redbook. ( Up to 24 bit 192 )

It's harder to go from blue ray and back to just CD quality for sure.

Your impression has me thinking of getting the add-on card for the helix. At first, I was thinking of getting the Bluetooth module so anyone could just link up to my helix and play their own music. 

Now you have me wondering if I should get the other card for the helix ( because one can choose one or the other) which will allow for High Res Files.

By the way, your Spring 2017 NCSQ Get Together demo CD has some of the most incredible quality tracks on them. The music on there is just phenomenal. I use that as my reference CD. As I'm going through the process of learning how to tune and keep making adjustments the music on your disk just keeps sounding better and better. I thank you so very much for putting so much time and effort into this hobby that you do.

With regards to another demo, I would love your input. The first time you heard my system, you told me that the bass was back here ( meaning the listening position.) Back then, I didn't even know what that meant. lol

Hopefully, if it works out with your work, and you make it up this way, I would love for you to lend an ear my way. If not, I'm hoping to attend your Spring 2018 GTG if all the chips fall into place. ( fingers crossed ) The one I attended goes down in history as a standout positive memorable experience.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I recently installed the USB / HEC adapter in the Helix Pro2, long usb cable in the car up to the console area, and I can plug the phone in now. I have only tried a few albums (CD Quality only) from the phone using USB output straight into the Helix. Some things sound a little tighter, a little more focused using the USB vs the coax out of the FiiO. It is a fun experiment. I'm looking forward to the possibility of the FiiO having USB output (they are working on the Firmware to accomplish that). A little more elegant presentation with the USB coming out instead of the bulky coax cable.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bertholomey said:


> I recently installed the USB / HEC adapter in the Helix Pro2, long usb cable in the car up to the console area, and I can plug the phone in now. I have only tried a few albums (CD Quality only) from the phone using USB output straight into the Helix. Some things sound a little tighter, a little more focused using the USB vs the coax out of the FiiO. It is a fun experiment. I'm looking forward to the possibility of the FiiO having USB output (they are working on the Firmware to accomplish that). A little more elegant presentation with the USB coming out instead of the bulky coax cable.


I didn't realize you could use the FiiO via coax and just use another set of RCA inputs in the helix, without purchasing the card for the helix. 

All these products, terms for types of inputs, different configurations, digital file types, etc make my head spin. 

I think I'm just going to use the turntable from now on........lol


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

A couple of big boxes showed up today, from Madisound.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I got the centre seat laser aligned and I have been noticing a slight imbalance for the last few months. The midrange was more prominent on the driver's side. I thought it might have been attributed to a shorter speaker wire.

However, a few months back when I realized that the midrange and tweeter towers needed to be symmetrical in the cab, I was so concerned with the distances between the side glass, as well as distance from the listening position, I realized that I never took into account the heights. 

My midrange/tweeter on the driver's side was a full 1 1/16" higher than the passenger side. 

I removed the passenger side tower and cut off the excess. Much better symmetry now. The stage was wider on the driver side, too. Now the balance is much better. 

I didn't realize height would be so critical when it came to frequency dispersion.


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## Dan750iL (Jan 16, 2016)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I got the centre seat laser aligned and I have been noticing a slight imbalance for the last few months. The midrange was more prominent on the driver's side. I thought it might have been attributed to a shorter speaker wire.
> 
> However, a few months back when I realized that the midrange and tweeter towers needed to be symmetrical in the cab, I was so concerned with the distances between the side glass, as well as distance from the listening position, I realized that I never took into account the heights.
> 
> ...


I hope my hearing is never good enough to detect something like that.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Dan750iL said:


> I hope my hearing is never good enough to detect something like that.


It's a blessing and a curse. lol 

I can turn my head about 1" and the centre image shifts as well towards the direction that I move my head.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Listening Impressions:


After sitting here for about 20 Min. or so I've noticed an improvement in overall depth and both depth and width on the passenger side. 

It seems like the midrange on the passenger side is now just as loud as the other side. I will sleep better tonight.

P.S. Everything sounds cleaner, crisper and more transparent, and real.

P.P.S. Brushes on the drum kit sound like brushes instead of static. Now I see why you guys state that install is very high up on the list when it comes to Sound Quality.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Replaced the 10" Brax 10.1 Mid-basses with the ScanSpeak 13" 32W woofers.

Changed one out and did a L/R comparison to see what the differences were.

That Brax is definitely a powerhouse. The magnet is almost the same size as the cone. It packs a nice punch and has a lot of grunt. The magnet easily controls the driver and no matter how much power you throw at it, it can handle it. 

With that being said, the Scan Blends much better with the other drivers. Its wimpy magnet doesn't have as much control over the driver at extremely high volume. Less intense punch, but plays so much lower. There is very little difference between having the subs on and having them off. I have the Scans playing all the way down to 20 HZ. 

The system now has a little less punch, so the fun factor has gone down slightly, however, I believe a much better improvement in SQ as the blending has significantly improved. The lack of a need for the sub-woofers is also pretty cool. 

The soundstage has grown even larger with these new drivers.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Today I put in the Helix HEC Bluetooth Card. It was pretty cool playing my songs on my phone in download library. 

Then I tried listening to videos on Youtube / VIMO. Some of those are extremely high-quality recordings and some not so much. 

Then I tried Pandora and compared to a CD same song. CD sounded better with more bass, more high end and more detail on the echos and reflected sounds in the background. The small details that take the recording to the lifelike level were on the CD but not on Pandora. 

My neighbour came over and brought his phone. We linked him up to the Helix. He has Spotify. He was in the centre seat, but I could tell that some of the recordings were incredibly recorded. One by Bread was especially memorable. 

Mounted the director, finally and am really looking forward to finishing this 6-year build. But I still have so much to do.

After putting in the ScanSpeaks, I no longer really need subs so the SI 24" IB sub I was planning on installing is no longer necessary. Sorry, Nick. 

I'll leave the Air conditioner/ Heater right where it is. 

Also, I happen to get a hold of a Victory Sonics Tube Pre-Amp. I've been experimenting with that and find that it works to smoothen out the sharpness in the top end, but it does add slight distortion. Kind of a compromise.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So earlier I stated that the there was very little difference with subs on vs subs off. I have to recant that statement. 

I turned up the gain for the subs from -5 on the Helix to 0 and some more tuning tweaks and now the subs add a substantial amount of low frequencies to the mix. 

There is now a big difference while playing music with the subs on. The basement foundation is solid. The biggest difference is while listening to music on the outside of the vehicle. The size of the van and the murmur of the bass now matches.

The low guttural growl that emanates from the belly of the beast demands that its presence is known. 

Got some more goodies to install.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Got back from a weeks vacation in Mexico. My Pandora commercial-free subscription expired. So I renewed it but thought I should give other services a shot. 

I downloaded the Spotify app. It had good sounding music and a nice format, but I was not blown away by the sound quality. I like the features, very much.

Then I figured I would try Tidal while I was at it. I signed up for the 30 Day free trial of Premium.

I am very very impressed with the sound quality of Tidal. My first impression is that it sounds as good as Redbook CD. I have not done a back to back direct comparison, but WOW!. 

It does not seem like CD's are needed to get great Sound Quality anymore. 

Because I wrote it, I just finished a back-to-back comparison. I used Bread-Guitar Man as it is very well recorded. Tidal sounds better than CD. I'm truly shocked. There are more dynamics, better stereo separation, a bigger soundstage, and more immersive sound. 

Mr Old School CD man has been converted. Tidal via Bluetooth may sound as good as a Blue-Ray recording. I'll do that comparison later.

More goodies came in the mail yesterday. A magnetic latching automatic charging relay from Blue Sea. This will help tie both battery banks together when charging and unlatch them when starting. I have yet to install the second battery bank as of yet but made room for it in the back by removing a set of shelving under the amplifiers.


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## Jaloosk (Jan 13, 2010)

Did you try Apple Music? What did you think?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Jaloosk said:


> Did you try Apple Music? What did you think?


No sorry, I did not try Apple Music, however, your comment got my curiosity up so I looked into it. It appears that Apple Music streams at the lowest bitrate when compared to Spotify and Tidal. 

Most listeners could not seem to tell the difference over headphones during the study. However, the system may not have been high resolution enough to show those differences. 

I know myself when I took did a comparison test of bitrate quality, with my last set of headphones, it was very difficult to discern differences. The same exact test I did this year with new headphones made for a much easier time picking out the better quality recording.

I would also venture to say that people need to be trained to discern differences in sound quality. Floyd Toole when he was working at JBL/Harmon did a comparison and proved this. 

https://www.theverge.com/2015/7/7/8872115/apple-music-tidal-spotify-audio-quality-test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Been working on the Van. Some new things I can show, others will be revealed in due time.

Power inlet installed today and MECA SQL Chrome sticker.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

High Resolution Audio said:


> No sorry, I did not try Apple Music, however, your comment got my curiosity up so I looked into it. It appears that Apple Music streams at the lowest bitrate when compared to Spotify and Tidal.
> 
> Most listeners could not seem to tell the difference over headphones during the study. However, the system may not have been high resolution enough to show those differences.
> 
> ...


For a very long time I've been wanting to write up a detailed post regarding training your ears and "how to listen", and what to specifically listen for (with downloadable files of specific tracks as examples) in regards to distortion (from bass, to mids, to treble), lossy compression artifacts, bit depth/sample rate differences, imaging/staging/focus, phase anomolies, and so on.

Once you hear and identify the various specific traits or artifacts, it's much easier to identify them in the future, in any system.

As far as overall realism and compression artifacts, these are easiest to hear with a small selection of acoustic instruments. Percussive instruments especially: HiHats, triangles, chimes, cymbals, shakers, etc. And also strings: acoustic guitar, violin/cello, some brass & woodwinds, and right-hand on the piano. One other very revealing test is a simple (but well recorded) recording of raindrops.

I've thought about this a lot, but it might be a bit difficult unless we all have a similar, or at least really good "reference" system. It's hard to discuss and compared as a community without a "standard reference". 

To isolate or eliminate external acoustic variables, I think that headphones would be the most ideal reference system, but that doesn't work for some of the multi-driver phase and/or XO issues, or speaker dependent distortion, etc.

I've been trying a bunch of different headphones lately to try and find a good "reference-quality" set that won't break the bank, but so far it seems like I haven't been satisfied with headphones that were less than about $300-$500+.  Of course, I can't try them all, so I'm just going by others' best recommendations.

So far, here's my short list:

1. Beyerdynamic DT-1990. I was really surprised by these. It's really fantastic. But it's a little above my chosen price limit. They seem like the pair that Beyer finally "got right". It comes with 2 sets of earpads: one is "Balanced" and offers a bit more low end, and the other is "Analytical"...really good quality bass, but without any area being over emphasized or exaggerated. Highly recommended for the $.

2. A toss-up between the new Sennheiser HD-660S and the OG HD-650. You can get the 650's for much less, and it's only a small tick behind the updated version (not all that much has changed with these). 

3. Audioquest Nighthawks. I really like these. They are really "easy" and enjoyable to listen to and the price is nice for what you get. But for me, for analytical use they didn't quite match the others. But again, overall they are very pleasing and enjoyable to listen to.

I was going to recommend a few of the HiFiMan sets based solely on SQ, but between their build quality issues and horrible customer service/support, I'm not going to recommend them.

I don't want to hijack Gerald's thread and make this another "headphone thread", but I'm just thinking "out loud" here regarding some type of semi-affordble reference system that we can all aquire. As I and many others have mentioned in other threads, the JBL LSR-305 Active Studio Monitors are an incredible bargain as an inexpensive reference setup, especially if you get them on sale. They won't cover the extreme low bass, but in all other areas they are fantastic.

Gerald, if you are still using the Audio-Technica ATH-M50x, I think you'll be blown away by the Beyerdynamic DT-1990. I guess you should be though because they are considerably more expensive.  The only caveat is that they are open-back headphones, so there's not much isolation either way.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Drove to Virginia for a 4X Meca weekend. Team Deadly Hurtz put on an SPL show at a racetrack. There were over 740 Vehicles that were involved and only 8 were SQ. I got to drive the Time Machine around the track. It was a good time. 15 hours driving time down and 12 back ( different route )


Came home with some awards and 20 points towards finals.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

After the great feedback, I got while at the competition, I installed Polyfil in the Left Mid-bass enclosure, because I had some laying around.

Ordered and installed Lambs Wool for the Right Mid-bass enclosure.

A careful comparison showed me that the Lambs Wool works much, much better for treating the cabinet resonance, so I ordered the wool for the other side to replace the PolyFil.

Did a retune to try and make a smoother response curve. The green ( not purple ) is the curve. I'm shooting for the Whitledge ( waterfall ) curve.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I found it very surprising that there is such a vast difference between Polyfil and wool. 

On the Polyfil side, the level setting on the Helix is -7.75

On the Wool side, the level setting is -2 to sound about even. 

With the wool side set to -7.75, it was barely audible. 

I was very shocked to learn this. 

The wool added to the enclosure makes the mid-bass blend better with the midrange and helps with the soundstage depth.

With the Polyfil side, the mid-bass is more inside the cab. 

The wool gets rid of all the cabinet resonances. Makes for much cleaner tighter bass. I can't wait to get the wool tomorrow and put it in the other enclosure. 

Will have to do a retune as it makes such a dramatic difference.

I'll probably end up putting some wool in the sub enclosures as well, as an experiment. 

Also may end up replacing the Polyfil in the midrange-tweeter towers as well to see if that makes any noticeable changes.


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I found it very surprising that there is such a vast difference between Polyfil and wool.
> 
> On the Polyfil side, the level setting on the Helix is -7.75
> 
> ...


*Car Stereo Review Magazine - March/April 1995 - Subwoofer Enclosures & Fiberfill by Tom Nousaine*

Old Post from DIYMA member _Chaos_: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/55500-post23.html

"This topic is covered thoroughly in the *Loudspeaker Design Cookbook by Vance Dickason*. 

I have yet to find a more comprehensive explaination of subwoofer enclosure design and the relative performance which results from employing different methods of construction & dampening techniques. Not to say that the information in that book is absolute, but it does help to clearly illustrate these issues for the serious DIY speakerbuilers."

Gerald, that's a good experiment. Yeah it's interesting how much of a difference these different materials can make. I've always tried "stuffing" my subwoofer enclosures with different amounts to see what difference it makes since I first read the Tom Nousaine article linked above and then Vance's Loudspeaker book (Highly Recommended for any DIY'er). 9 times out of 10 some type & amount of stuffing stays in the box.

I've also used various types of stuffing inside nearly all of my midbass and midrange enclosures as well. IME, this always helped to "clean up" or improve the overall clarity, fine detail, and dynamics, and usually required less overall EQ.

IMO, particularly in smaller or shallow enclosures, the fill material helps to diffuse the direct, reflected energy off of the rear panel of the enclosure surface from re-energizing the speaker cone, which would cause comb filtering/cancellations/nulls/peaks in the response and more energy storage or "ringing" of the cone.

I would be very interested in seeing more measurement results that show the Waterfall FR & Decay plots when using various "stuffing" materials just to control the reflected backwave energy, as opposed to nothing at all.

In many recording studios and control rooms, they will use a large panel of random-depth & sized wood blocks on the wall between the two studio monitor speakers and also attached to the back wall behind the listening position to diffuse and scatter the reflections to lessen their amplitude.

This is usually combined with absorbtion materials around the perimeter of the diffusor as well and is primarily effective between 1-4khz. Search for "Skyline Diffusor Panel" and also see below.

*Arqen - Sound Diffusers 101*

But in regards to Loudspeaker Enclosures, get the Vance Dickason book!


Did you also take measurements of the differences as well?

Are you still tuning to a target curve?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bbfoto said:


> *Car Stereo Review Magazine - March/April 1995 - Subwoofer Enclosures & Fiberfill by Tom Nousaine*
> 
> Old Post from DIYMA member _Chaos_: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/55500-post23.html
> 
> ...




Headphones I own are the Audio Technica MTX 40 ( not the 50's )

The measurement tools I use mostly are my ears. The microphone comes in handy when it comes to fine-tuning. 

I didn't get a chance to stuff the other mid-bass enclosure as I didn't make it to the shop this weekend. But I will do it on Monday. I will have to retune the bottom end for sure. 

The curve I'm shooting for is the Whitledge ( waterfall ) curve. (( SEE POST #520 second RTA photograph green not purple )) 

Last year, When I tuned to the JBL ( Harmon ) curve, the system sounded too harsh and bright. 

I didn't like having stuffing when the enclosures were on the smaller side as it restricted the output dramatically. The drivers barely moved and the sound coming out of them was very soft. 

Now that the midbass and subwoofer enclosures are larger and the right size, I have to say that I've changed my mind about the stuffing, for sure.

I was contemplating glueing different size chunks of wood inside the mid-bass enclosures to break up the waves ( Jason - One Final Install's idea ), but using the stuffing makes it so much easier and I'm so happy with the results.

Thanks for the tip on the book! I appreciate the information!

As far as getting rid of first reflections, I will be installing side curtains in the future. MECA allows them, IASCA doesn't.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I installed a Rail system and linear actuator that moves the Driver's seat to the center of the vehicle.

I also installed black velvet curtains to help block reflections on the sides and in front of the windshield.

I got a professional ( Nick ) to tune the system for both the center (MECA) and from behind the steering wheel ( IASCA). I have to say it's a night and day improvement.

I attended a MECA SQ competition in New York the day after the tune and the system did pretty well. The van took 1st place in Extreme class and Best in Show overall. 

I have to give props to Nick. He really knows his stuff and his tuning skills are on point! He's a whiz with the Helix. Without his help, there would be no trophies. Thank you Nick for bringing out the potential of the system. 

I would highly recommend his services to anyone that is in need of a good tuner. For the first time in 3 years, I can sit in the van and enjoy music without analyzing. It was about 14 hours of driving round trip, but well worth it.

I appreciate his help so much. Hats off to the Skizer 

I'm planning on attending Steele Valley Regionals this weekend and Finals in October. And then not competing in 2019.

I may just attend SVR next year and some local GTG. But the driving is just too much for me with that beast of a rig.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Congrats, man! You've worked long and hard on your system and it's great to be acknowledged for that officially.  

And hats off to Nick for sure for the awesome tune. He's been able to work on a lot great cars and systems, and what seems like his almost daily experience tuning with the Helix and other DSPs has obviously dialed-in his ears and his tuning skills.

And that linear actuator-driven rail system for the driver's seat sounds cool. 

Well, I can certainly understand how driving that beast long distances can take its toll, not to mention the fuel costs.

I drove one of my mid-size grip & lighting trucks up to Portland, OR from SoCal a few years back for an Acura shoot when diesel fuel was $5/gallon. Luckily it's a fairly quiet & comfortable truck for what it is, but it's a GMC/Isuzu Tilt Cab where you basically sit right on top of the front axle. That can be some rough riding at times on long hauls, and there's no vertical room in this particular truck for an air-ride truck seat.  At least you got that! 

But just the fuel invoice to the client was some crazy money. And I've done plenty of other trips in the trucks to the Grand Canyon and all kinds of other long hauls, and it does get tiring, so I completely understand.

Now that you've succeeded in the orgs with the big Time Machine, you need a smaller/more comfortable long-haul car to put a new system in. 

P.S. I love that the breaker panel is in the shot behind your trophies, haha. So apropos.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So I went to another competition in West Virginia. Steele Valley Regionals. Nice indoor venue. Air Conditioned. People came from California and Florida, and I travelled from Massachusetts. About 54 Cars. 

I competed in ISACA, MECA, and Top 30. 

IASCA and Top 30 from behind the steering wheel. Not a high score. 202 ( I believe ) 25th place in the Top 30.

MECA from center seating position....Extreme Class

3rd place Gerald Costa 

2nd place went to Steve Head 

1st place to Steve Weigner

I had inconsistent scores. 74, 75, 78, and 84

10 Points between lowest and highest. And I positioned each judge with their ears in the exact same position????? Oh well.

Stopped at Niagra Falls on the way home for a couple of days. Then broke down at the Mass/NY Border. A fuel leak and air leak.

The fixed the air leak in NY and I was able to head home. I just got the Van today out of the shop where the fuel leak was fixed and had the vehicle serviced.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

High Resolution Audio said:


> So I went to another competition in West Virginia. Steele Valley Regionals. Nice indoor venue. Air Conditioned. People came from California and Florida, and I travelled from Massachusetts. About 54 Cars.
> 
> I competed in ISACA, MECA, and Top 30.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear about the breakdown. That's never any fun. 

But Congrats on your 3rd Place! That's no small feat to place just behind the two veterans and extremely experienced "Steve's"!

The way that both of their vehicles are set up, they might as well be "center seat" vehicles. 

And the way that Klifton explained the scoring in the recent SQology Podcast made it seem that the variance in scores between the different judges wasn't as big of a factor as you'd think, but it still seems a bit odd to me. Perhaps both of the Steves had the same variance in their scores as well, IDK.

I don't compete and never have, but I might have some personal insight from experience with many of my own vehicles and with the installs that I've done for friends and family.

So I have several systems in several very different vehicles. One is more like both of the Steves...a bit narrow in width and long in length, with lots of open space front-to-rear and longer speaker location-to-seat distances, and this vehicle seems to always provide the best overall sound and is also the easiest to tune.

Then I have another vehicle (a classic 1961 Ford F-100 single cab P/U) that is fairly wide, with a very shallow front-to-rear listening space and where you sit quite a bit higher and more upright like in your work truck.

The P/U sounds really great as well, and I think that I've done about all I can tuning wise to optimize the system, and I've also tried to optimize the physical aspects of the speaker locations and the overall install as well. But it still has some issues when playing certain tracks that can't really be overcome unless I'd be willing to do some crazy customizations with the speaker locations (under the hood/in the engine compartment, a la Mark Eldridge's NASCAR, haha).

However, since it is still a very enjoyable system to listen to, my ears and brain have sort of learned to ignore the occasional "problems" that it has and I just enjoy the music. Tonality and dynamics are extremely good for the most part, but imaging and staging suffers in some regards.

But because I'm usually listening to music that I truly enjoy and just "jam" to, I don't really care about or notice these issues in the truck until I hop into one of the other vehicles or listen to the home setup and the same "problem" track(s) happen to play.

So it's kind of a matter of listening just to enjoy the music, or really remembering to concentrate and listen critically.

What I'm getting at is that most of the judges have probably heard all of these different types of setups in these very different types of vehicles many times. And for better or worse, some judges might "look past" _some_ of the deficiencies in certain types of vehicles because they have just come to expect them, while another judge may be more critical and judge irregardless of his/her past experience in that particular type of vehicle & setup, and just judge the vehicle "as per the score sheet".

This is sort of how I "judge" my own vehicles, and I can say to myself that, "[email protected], the system in my old pickup sounds amazing _given the install & acoustic limitations_ in this type of vehicle", while one of my friends that listens to it might say that, "it doesn't even come close to your setup in the other car".

I'm sure every judge has different experience overall and more or less experience listening to systems in specific types of vehicles.

Just my .02, enough mindless babble.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Thanks, Bbfoto for the congratulations on my finish at SVR. I had a great time.

Although the Scans blend better with the system, I miss the punch of the Brax 10.1s.

The hole in the new boxes is now 13" so instead of trying to fix that box, I went back to my first boxes that were almost finished which took me just a few days to finish. 

I got all the corners sanded tonight. Lined them with hardware cloth and 11 pounds of non-drying clay. 

Hopefully, tomorrow, I'll be able to cover them with speaker carpet.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Midrange enclosures and hangers are fabricated. They are made out of aluminium. I drilled and tapped the aluminium flange that was epoxied to the stock enclosure.

After purchasing two hole saws 7 1/4" and 5 3/4" to make rings. Lots of work but I had to close the holes on the sides of these custom Scan Midranges as they wouldn't seal because they have flat sides and are not round. 

I'm contemplating putting clay or liquid rubber inside any ideas or suggestions?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

WORD OF CAUTION!!!!

P.S. If anyone chooses to use sound deadener between layers or a metal mesh grid like I did for my midbass enclosures and wants to install speaker binding posts through the box, please remember that the Aluminum foil on the deadener will conduct electricity between the posts. Remember to cut the foil away near that area as well as the metal mesh. 

I did it, but I don't think I showed it in any of the photos.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Installing new Midranges and Tweeters. I purchased them a couple of years ago to install in this build. Finally getting around to putting them in.

They are custom made Scanspeak 7" midranges and custom made Raven R2 tweeters. 

It took a full day to fabricate Acrylic tweeter mounts. These needed to be super strong as my new Ribbon Tweeters weigh 13 pounds each.

I got the mounting aluminum flanges painted as well as the inside of the midrange enclosures lined with liquid rubber. 

I took the week off from electrical work to get this phase closer to completion.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Looks like something Steve would do. ??*♂


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I've wanted to try those Raven Ribbons for a long time. I can't wait to see how these turn out.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Installed the midranges and tweeters today. It was a ton of work, but the final result is worth all the effort, in my opinion. 

I did a quick tune on the system and its pretty breathtaking. The focus, crispness and clarity are unreal. 

I added lambswool to the midrange enclosures after applying a coat of liquid rubber, and the tweeters are fully exposed and on display in the clear Acrylic. It allows me to see the road through the mounts. 

I had mismatched amps on my midbass. Boston GT 22 on one and a GT 28 on the other. Levels had to be adjusted to get a balanced sound. 

I fixed that today as well. Have matching Boston GT 22 on each one.


I also decided to use my spare smaller Step van to do all my electrical work.

I will be ripping the passenger seat of this van as it absorbs some of the sounds and makes for an imbalance. It's been bothering me for a while now. It wasn't bad when I had the three seats, but when sliding the driver's seat to the middle it leaves a void on the driver's side. 

I guess at this point I can be considered certifiably nuts. lol.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> Looks like something Steve would do. ??*♂


Who do you think gave him the idea two years ago at the 2016 fall NCSQ event? lol


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rton20s said:


> I've wanted to try those Raven Ribbons for a long time. I can't wait to see how these turn out.


These are my absolute favourite tweeters bar none. Adds some SQ to the build for sure.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Who do you think gave him the idea two years ago at the 2016 fall NCSQ event? lol


----------



## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

BTW- I'm glad you finally got these in! I am looking forward to hearing them.


They are an older model -I believe from the late 90's, early 2000's (newer technology and design advances allow some improved performance) but they should still rock. 






Be careful with your crossover point and how much power you drive them with. They have high sensitivity so you shouldn't need much, but they don't have the kind of power handling of the RAAL's, so just be careful with them. I'm sure they are hard to repair/replace these days! Also, you may want to consider installing a quality protective cap on both tweeters to avoid any potential damage from turn on/off.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I guess I didn't even look that closely at the Ravens. I thought this was one of the newer models still available. Where did you even source an older model from Gerald?


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

Really came out nice Gerald... Can't wait to hear it with the changes.

Were you planning on going to NYS Finals 3x at the end of the month?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rton20s said:


> I guess I didn't even look that closely at the Ravens. I thought this was one of the newer models still available. Where did you even source an older model from Gerald?


I purchased them a couple years back from Aerial Acoustics here in Massachusetts. The Midrange and Tweeter are out of their discontinued Flagship Model.

https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/aerial_acoustics_20t_v2_loudspeaker/index.html


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Truthunter said:


> Really came out nice Gerald... Can't wait to hear it with the changes.
> 
> Were you planning on going to NYS Finals 3x at the end of the month?


Hi Ryan,

Thanks, I kind of threw everything together quickly. Not my usual perfectionist work. The Lyme disease makes for less energy.

No, I'm just going to World Finals in Louisville, KY in October. That will be enough driving for one year. lol


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

One Lonesome Seat!!!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

captainobvious said:


> BTW- I'm glad you finally got these in! I am looking forward to hearing them.
> 
> 
> They are an older model -I believe from the late 90's, early 2000's (newer technology and design advances allow some improved performance) but they should still rock.
> ...


Thanks for the tip. The Manufacturer recommended a crossover point of 3.5K with a -24 DB roll off. I have the Soundstream Class A 100 II powering each one bridged so I'm throwing 160 watts ( potentially on them ).

I actually blew one yesterday I had been playing at full volume from time to time for the last three days, but this time it didn't work out. Fortunately, snatched up a backup pair I purchased from France on E-Bay last year, so I'll have something to use while I have it rebuilt. 

I will be turning the volume setting on the Helix to -3.5 instead of zero. What size capacitor (which brands are Quality ) do I get for the tweets and where do I install them? In parallel or in series?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Some of the work that I did today, and yesterday. 

Blue Sea has some great products. Stereo finally has it's own battery bank. The Automatic Charging Relay is very cool. Made up all the battery leads both soldered and crimped.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Today, my helper and I spent an entire 8 hours ripping out the old speaker wires and installing them with all new. (Tweeter, Midrange, Midbass )

The old wires were a mixture of 12-2 and 10-2 landscape wire. All varying lengths. Some wires were 7-10 feet longer than the others and some had 12 gauge on one side and 10 gauge on the other. When I ran them a few years ago, I thought that wire was wire and things like this didn't matter. I compensated distance with the larger wire size, not knowing the implications. 

The new wires are all exactly the same length (26')and all 10-2 Landscape wire. I had to drill out the speaker terminals on the tweeters in order to accept such a large diameter wire. 

A lot of work including desoldering/soldering the wires on the midranges. Taking wires out of looms, removing/reinstalling the Flat screen, undoing tape, wire ties, etc etc. There is a lot of extra wire coiled up on the driver's side as that is the shortest physical distance. 

In the end, 16 man hours, proved well worth it. I gained lots of depth on the soundstage and had to adjust the time alignment by 1/100th of a millisecond to sound correct. From .96 to .97 on the midbasses. 

Changing the midrange/tweeters improved the focus and clarity, but having all the speaker wires symmetrical took the system to a whole new level. 

What I noticed right away was that my system now has depth for the first time ever. Both in the center and far left and right of the stage. 

It's easier to get midrange and tweeter levels correct as to make things deep in the stage ( like drum kits ) have all the sounds coming from the appropriate distance from the listening position. 

At first, my cymbals were in front of the rest of the drum kit, but with a slight level adjustment on the tweeters, I was able to bring the cymbals deeper in the soundstage to line up with the depth of the drums themselves. This was something I could never do before because I couldn't hear distances with the mismatched speaker wire. 

For the first time, I also have precision focus at the center image. The highs, mids and low frequencies all come from a sharp well-defined dime size location. 

Also, making small 1/4DB eq adjustments on the DSP made for a noticeable change in the sound. 

I highly recommend to anyone installing a car stereo system to measure all speaker wire runs and make them the exact same length even if it means a messy install due to the extra wire on the close runs.

The ambience and resolution have improved as I notice things going on in the recording studio that are non-musical such as chair squeaks and foot tapping. Banging noises twice in the first 30 seconds of Spanish Harlem actually startled me.

More changes are coming in the next few days, as new parts keep showing up.

Getting prepped for competing in the Sound Quality World Finals in Louisville, KY this October 13,14.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So the new goodies arrived on Wednesday and Friday. 

Yesterday, I replaced the Helix DSP Pro MKII with the ARC Audio PS8. 

The reason I did that is that the Helix has OpAmps that are soldered in place and very small, so swapping them out would be a big problem. I also heard a system at SVR that use to have a Helix and at the competition was Running an Arc. I heard something magical that I never have heard before so I had to get one for myself.

The ARC has sockets that the OpAmps fit in so rolling OpAmps will be an option.

At the same time, I ordered OpAmps from SparkoS Labs which are class A bias. 

I installed the ARC processor yesterday and stayed up till 1:30 A.M. doing some tweaking and listening. I have to admit that the system is more engaging with this new processor. 

I put in several Focal Disks that I burned from a link on a thread on this site. It was funny because I never believed in "burn in" but after a few hours of playing music after installing the new DSP, I could hear the sound begin to change.

At first, the sound wasn't super impressive, but a few hours later, the sound changed to very dynamic and more musical. I'm very impressed with the system and I can't wait to install the new OpAmps, however, there are two issues:

1. The OpAmps have to be oriented properly otherwise the both the Processor and OpAmp can burn up. The #1 pin is identified on the OpAmp, but not on the ARC board. So I have to wait until I found out which pin is the #1 on the board. Swapping OpAmps will void the warranty, but that doesn't bother me much.

2. These OpAmps are pretty tall. Im going to have to modify the cover of the Processor so it sits taller and put a layer of dielectric waxed cardboard or whatever they use to not have the metal short out on the circuit board. They have that paper on the bottom of the board to insulate it from the bottom of th e processor enclosure. I'll end up with a small gap, between but I have to drill and tap new holes and cut out the metal where the RCA's pass through the cover. Modifying the cover with tin snips is another thing I have to do or just run it coverless. 

There are a couple bugs with the ARC. Bluetooth on my I-phone doesn't locate the ARC. There is a software glitch that wont allow me to use the controller to adjust subwoofer level output. Also, the subwoofer boxes are greyed out so I can't check them and It all started when I tried entering Parametric EQ settings. 

I'll have to call ARC tech support tomorrow. 


With regards to the subwoofer, I like how it has my name on it. The back panel behind the center seat has regular plywood there now with carpet on it. I've got two furniture grade squares cut out and ready to install as baffles. 

I just have to cut out the proper size holes first. The Amp I will be using is a class AB Boston Acoustics GT 24. 

Right now, two JL Slash 600/1 amps ( class D ) are powering the dual 15" MB Quart Subs. 

Because the sealed box ( acoustic suspension ) dampens the bass notes somewhat, I'm hoping to get bass notes that sustain in duration and decay for as long ribbon tweeters have the highs hanging in the air. 

I have about 350 Cubic Feet of space in the back of the truck and if I take all the shelving out and gear there will be just over 500 cubic feet of space. That should be enough volume to work properly.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Thanks for the tip. The Manufacturer recommended a crossover point of 3.5K with a -24 DB roll off. I have the Soundstream Class A 100 II powering each one bridged so I'm throwing 160 watts ( potentially on them ).
> 
> I actually blew one yesterday I had been playing at full volume from time to time for the last three days, but this time it didn't work out. Fortunately, snatched up a backup pair I purchased from France on E-Bay last year, so I'll have something to use while I have it rebuilt.
> 
> I will be turning the volume setting on the Helix to -3.5 instead of zero. What size capacitor (which brands are Quality ) do I get for the tweets and where do I install them? In parallel or in series?



Bummer!! Were you using that crossover setting (3.5k @24db) when they blew? You may have to go higher in order to increase the power handling to reach the volume limits you want. That's the one drawback with those is that they aren't as big of a ribbon element and don't have quite the motor of the RAAL so they don't have as much power handling. [email protected] is probably the minimum they recommend and we are probably listening at levels a little louder than typical at times as well. If the midrange is capable enough (Not sure about those?) maybe you can push the xover up a little higher between the two...?


Glad you had a back up pair!


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Today, my helper and I spent an entire 8 hours ripping out the old speaker wires and installing them with all new. (Tweeter, Midrange, Midbass )
> 
> The old wires were a mixture of 12-2 and 10-2 landscape wire. All varying lengths. Some wires were 7-10 feet longer than the others and some had 12 gauge on one side and 10 gauge on the other. When I ran them a few years ago, I thought that wire was wire and things like this didn't matter. I compensated distance with the larger wire size, not knowing the implications.
> 
> ...



Do you also have some ocean front property in Arizona? 

How about some serpentes petroleum?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So the new Sub and Amp are installed and playing music. 

Two layers of 3/4" furniture grade plywood with the last layer chamfered. The framing on the sides is 2x6" so it's very solid. The sub is through-bolted with aircraft nuts. 

The Arc Audio PS8 is installed and in operation.

Bluetooth on my I-phone can't see the module?

Subwoofer volume won't work.

I like the sound of this processor as especially as it is burning in. The sound is opening up and less "digital" sounding than the Helix. 

I still have to mount the controller and fix the bugs, but impressed overall with the direction the system is headed.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

I feel like sqnut would love all the recent upgrade talk. Where’s he been?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> I feel like sqnut would love all the recent upgrade talk. Where’s he been?


I thought it was discussed earlier in this thread about DIYMA turning into the twilight zone and sqnut was really me?...............


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Ah. I thought maybe he fell off the edge of the earth.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

It's hard to see exactly because everything is black, but I made reflection absorbers for the front windows. 

I took 1/8" Lauan and covered it with black carpet. I have to unscrew the head unit box to install them, but after that, they slide right into place.

I made a strip for the center divider where the cables run down to just dress up and cover the wiring.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

You may want to do more than simple carpet on those panels if you want to actually absorb anything. That's not going to do much from an absorption standpoint.


See you in a week


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

captainobvious said:


> You may want to do more than simple carpet on those panels if you want to actually absorb anything. That's not going to do much from an absorption standpoint.
> 
> 
> See you in a week


Thanks for the tip. I might purchase acoustic foam and install later. Good for now. 

Looking forward to this weekend's great event. I hope to see you there if God lets the Van make it, lol!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

A different amplifier installed on the tweeters yesterday. 

Making final tweaks to the system today. 

Making last minute preparations before heading to Finals in Louisville, KY.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Had a chance to hear this last night. It works! And it works very well!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So I went to Car Audio Finals in Louisville, KY this past weekend. 

I was able to meet a lot of people I had been facebook and forum friends with but never met in person. And I got to sit in some great sounding vehicles. 

I had a great time. A lot of driving. ( 4 full days worth ) 

The tune on the van was done by ear by me and was geared towards how I like to listen to music. (More in your face than far away sounding. ) (Front row at a concert type of sound)

With that being said, I did manage to score an 83, 80, and 76. They average the scores, so the lower 76 kept me from getting a trophy by one position.

I placed 6th out of 11 in my class ( MECA Extreme SQL)

I did give practically nonstop demos both Saturday and especially on Sunday. I had waiting lines for a good part of the day.

Ben Zimmerman, Dave Clews, Rob Bess, Tim Smith, Mike Meyer, John Smith, Steve Cook, Scott Buwalda were just some of the people that auditioned the system. 

I had a bunch of positive feedback. Some described the sound as immersive, some like a home system, others said it was like wearing headphones. The consensus was that it was unique and that it was a listening experience. 

Overall a great memory for me, that I will cherish for the rest of my life. 

I'm pretty much done with the competition scene. Although I may go to Steele Valley Regionals once a year for the camaraderie. 

I've made some good friends who share the same passion with me for music. It was nice to see old friends and even make some new ones.

I will continue to experiment with the system with regards to head unit selection, I have a few choices waiting at the shop for me to experiment with.

Maybe a Mosconi A-Class amplifier (as I heard one in a vehicle at SVR and was blown away by the musicality. ) 

and maybe a processor experiment ( Mosconi 8-12 that I traded my Helix for), but I'm pretty much ready now just to enjoy listening to music. 

I've decided to work out of my smaller van and just use this one as my music chamber. 

I don't want to get into the costly home system game as that is way too pricey for me. I also like to listen at high volume (100+DB) so having a mobile system is the perfect solution.


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## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

It was great to meet you at Finals and put a face with the name. Every time I tried to come by and get a listen to your vehicle you were showing it to someone else. The more I heard other people talking about it, the more I wanted to hear it. Steve came away from his demo and said "that was amazing and immersive. I want that!". That is pretty high praise from a guy who tuned the World Champion vehicle! It is really cool to see that a guy who just took up the hobby a few years ago can create something that impresses guys that have been in the business for decades. I am sure you had fun doing it. Great job!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rockinridgeline said:


> It was great to meet you at Finals and put a face with the name. Every time I tried to come by and get a listen to your vehicle you were showing it to someone else. The more I heard other people talking about it, the more I wanted to hear it. Steve came away from his demo and said "that was amazing and immersive. I want that!". That is pretty high praise from a guy who tuned the World Champion vehicle! It is really cool to see that a guy who just took up the hobby a few years ago can create something that impresses guys that have been in the business for decades. I am sure you had fun doing it. Great job!


I'm sorry that we didn't get a chance to meet formally, and that we didn't get a chance to exchange demos. I did not enjoy the process of fabrication and installation and tuning. For me, it was a means to an end. 

Listening to music is what I enjoy most. And after work, I will usually spend a minimum of 20 min up to a few hours before I go home for dinner. 

I had a blast sharing my system with others who enjoy this hobby and passion of ours. As well as sitting in other vehicles as well. 

Thanks for the nice words. It was nice of you to take the time to write something positive. 

It was a very long build and I couldn't have done it without the help from everyone I've met along this journey. It seems like whenever I meet up or converse with car audio people, I learn something new that I can implement into my system to make it sound a little better. The help that I received along the way was a big part of it. 

This forum has so much useful information and great people that are willing to give tips and suggestions and useful advice.

Even Nick (SkizeR) had a chance to demo the van. He had nothing but praise to say to me about the system. I wasn't expecting that. For me, that was better than winning a trophy. Thanks, Nick.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> Had a chance to hear this last night. It works! And it works very well!


Thanks, Ben. It was due to your positive comments that my system got all the attention it did this past weekend. 

I enjoyed sharing my system with you and others more than I did the actual competition part. 

Thanks, again for everything. Nice finally meeting you in person as well.

Gerald


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Here's a link to an SQology Podcast where Steve Head is featured. He is a great guy, well liked, an amazing tuner, fun to be around funny as heck, and put together some amazing systems in his Aspen, Blazer, and even in the Trailer used to Haul his vehicles around. I had the pleasure of meeting him at SVR and then again at Finals. I was fortunate enough to hang out with him at both events and for dinner as well. First Class Act all the way. 

When we were all bringing in our vehicles inside at the Kentucky Expo Center and parking in our stalls at Finals, he had the trailer playing Hot Chocolate - " I Believe in Miracles" and I was Jamming to that sound coming out of that thing. Very impressive!

Also in this Podcast was some listening impressions of the Time Machine aka. " The Bread Truck " by Benny Z, Klifton K., and Erin H. 


https://soundcloud.com/sqology/feat-steve-head-sqologist-of-the-year



It was really neat to hear the listening impressions by all three of my peers. 
Unfortunately, Steve Head didn't get a chance to sit in the center seat. ( Nor did Steve Weigner ) 

I was hoping either Steve could have put a little "lotion" on the system and help tune the system to take it to the next level, but it wasn't meant to be this time around:


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Here's a link to Aerial Acoustics web sight in case anyone was interested in some of the best sounding speakers made in the world in my opinion. 


| Fine Loudspeakers Lovingly Created


The midrange and tweeters used in my install were custom made for Aerial Acoustics. All of their speakers sound incredible. Very well made and great sounding.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Benny Z happened to give impromptu interviews while at finals.

I happened to the last interview on this SQology Podcast sharing my experience at Finals.


https://soundcloud.com/sqology/2018-car-audio-championship-interviews


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Since finals, I have taken a hiatus from listening to music in my van. I suffered some temporary hearing loss from all the high volume demos and I just needed a break for a while. 

I went on a vacation to Texas and Arizona for a couple of weeks, got back and got sick. I'm starting to feel better and decided to work on the system again.

I before vacation, I acquired a preowned Mosconi A-Class Amplifier. Yesterday I replaced the McIntosh MC431 with the Mosconi which handles the Mid Range. did a short listening session and this is what I heard.

There as an immediate increase in Depth of the soundstage. The vocalist seemed set back further and the drum kit was set back further as well. What I noticed as well was more depth from instruments at the Extremities of the Stage ( Far L + R ). 

There was also more of a sense of "realism". It seemed almost as if I could reach out and touch the vocalist. Instruments had even more detail and had a sound that was slightly more true to life.

There is a button on the Mosconi labelled "Direct Input". Pressing that button in bypasses the internal pre-amp. 

I found that with the button in, the sound is slightly more immediate and direct.

With the button out, the internal preamp seems to tame the rough edges, smoothen out the sound, and push the soundstage back slightly.

After making these improvements, I find that the bass seems to be the weak link. It seems like the amplifiers that I have on the Woofers does not have the level of control when compared to the Midrange and Tweeters. 

I'll be getting a Mosconi amplifier to install on the Woofers soon to experiment and see if I can gain a better level of control on these drivers as well.

********NOTE********

The changes I'm making to the system at this point are ( to my ears ) slight and subtle improvements. There is a point at which I am going to be finished with experimenting, but I have several more experiments which I would like to do before I stop trying to improve upon this system.

I have head units, that I would like to experiment with and a Mosconi 8-12 Processor that I would like to audition. Right now, most of my experiments have been with an I-Phone, with a Bluetooth the signal to the processor from the TIDAL App. 

I have yet to try the OPPO BluRay player on the newest incarnation of the system.


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## knever3 (Mar 9, 2009)

Great to read all of your comments Gerald. I would enjoy listening sessions with you while swapping the equipment to give you a second opinion. You gave me an audition at world's finals in Kentucky. You mentioned that you were going to try a different Alpine deck. I'm sure that mosconi amplifier cut down on your hiss from your midrange you pointed out. If you are going to swap decks I tell you what the best sound quality deck I've ever owned was the Alpine 7965. I sold it because I thought there was a problem, but it ended up being my amplifier daughter boards. The most amazing realistic deck I've ever listened to.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

knever3 said:


> Great to read all of your comments Gerald. I would enjoy listening sessions with you while swapping the equipment to give you a second opinion. You gave me an audition at world's finals in Kentucky. You mentioned that you were going to try a different Alpine deck. I'm sure that mosconi amplifier cut down on your hiss from your midrange you pointed out. If you are going to swap decks I tell you what the best sound quality deck I've ever owned was the Alpine 7965. I sold it because I thought there was a problem, but it ended up being my amplifier daughter boards. The most amazing realistic deck I've ever listened to.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


Thank you for commenting and for listening to my system. I also appreciate your tip with the Alpine. 

The Mosconi did help with the hiss on the mid-ranges for sure. Bridging an amp always seems to add noise, in my experience.

The Mosconi also opened up my sound-stage boundaries slightly, as well as gave a touch more realism to instruments and vocals.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

After a long break after returning from finals I started working on the system again. Nothing new just mainly tuning, tuning, re-tuning, and then fine tuning.

As of a few days ago, I have finally taken the system to the limits of my tuning capabilities. Just in time for the New England Sound Quality Get Together tomorrow. 

I can say that the system is finally, fine tuned. What was interesting was that during the fine tuning process, adjusting each frequency one click up and down a 1/10th of a DB affected the overall sound.

For example, when I was adjusting a sub-bass frequency, and I got that one frequency just right, the mids and highs became clearer. 

And when I was adjusting the tweeter frequencies and got it just right, the bass became louder and more powerful. 

All this happened just by making 1/10 DB adjustment up or down ( from my base tune ) for each frequency one band at a time and listening. It was very surprising to me that low frequency adjustments would affect this highs and vice versa? Weird???

The system has been tuned totally by ear. I'm looking forward to tomorrow's GTG to get some feedback.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

The Get Together was a good turn out! 12 Vehicles showed up. We had a lot of fun and there was positive feedback. 

For fun, I had installed two Boston Acoustic weatherproof speakers on Friday in the rear of the truck that play along with the sub on a separate preset.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I decided to go to SVR ( Steele Valley Regionals ) at the end of July this year as a had such a great time last year. I renewed my memberships in both IASCA and MECA and will be competing in both plus the Top 30. 

Last year at SVR I had the old system. Between SVR 2018 and Finals 2018 I ripped out every component, speaker, wire, and amplifier and replaced them all with different ones.

When I went to Finals in 2018 I had a day and 1/2 to tune before leaving for Kentucky. 

For the last few weeks, I have been messing around with fine tuning and keep making improvements. 

The van sits in the back of my shop serving only as a listening chamber and for storage. I no longer do electrical work with the Beast anymore as it is so large and cumbersome. 

I have a smaller 1992 gasoline Stepvan that I use to do electrical work from. It is much easier to drive, park, maneuver, jump in and out of. 


During the past few weeks of listening and tweaking, I think I finally got the Time Alignment right. 

I also messed with crossover points and slopes which made an improvement in all areas.

This fine tuning by ear thing is pretty cool as making those 1/10th DB changes at any frequency effect the entire sound as a whole. 

The only issue is that changing weather conditions, such as humidity, and barometric pressure, temperature, and moon phase have a profound effect on the sound mostly in the bass and mid-bass area.

Re-tuning is required. It's very frustrating process, because I use to believe that once a system is tuned it was done. 

The fine tuning process has taught me otherwise. 

Hopefully, the Van will make the 30 hour Journey to West Virginia and back again with no troubles. I'm looking forward to this Get Together for sure. Seeing friends and sharing my system is my main purpose.

My Van will be open for demos, so say hello if you would like a listen. They say it is an "experience".


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Glad to hear you will be coming out to SVR with the van Gerald. Looking forward to hearing what you've been working on.


Cheers


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Good luck to you at SVR, Gerald.


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

Glad you're making it to SVR again. I'll see you there my friend. Steak is on me this time


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Thanks Guys,

I would really like for you Steve to give a listen if you have time. I'm striving to get it to sound more like the ole Pimp Wagon. LOL I always enjoy sitting in vehicles that you tune.

Erin, I appreciate the kind words. I just hope to make it there and back safely.

Ryan, I'm glad you are going to be there, too! Me you and Billy Guns have to create more memories!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So I installed studio foam on the front and in various locations locations throughout the cab. The sound became too dead. The carpet over wood alone in the front windows is the perfect amount.

The small foam adjacent to the tweeters will stay.

The foam along the side wall in front of the doors will stay. 

Foam on the ceiling in anywhere in front of me absorbs too much. ( even small amount ) 

Foam anywhere on the back wall absorbs too much. The back wall has carpet over rubber so it provides just the right amount of absorption.

Foam on the seat rails below me to the left and right absorbs too much bass.

The only place that seems to help is the corners behind and above my head. I'll have to experiment to get just the right amount of foam and exact positions. 

Also, possibly a very small about of foam to my immediate left and right of the sides of my head.

It's pretty amazing that one little section of foam can do so much.

It's also pretty neat that I'm able to customize the room to get optimal sound.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Drove 28 hours to West Virginia and back. Attended Steele Valley Regionals for the second time. 

Had a wonderful experience. Saw old friends and made some new ones. 

Tony ( RockinRidgeline ) was in the top 10 as well. He placed 7th. 

Ended up Taking home three trophies ( plaques ) 1st in IASCA, 3rd in MECA Extreme, and 3rd place in the top 30 ( which actually became the top 40) 

2nd went to Brian Mitchell in the Cadillac. 

1st went to Bill Gunzallus in the FJ


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Congrats! Gerald - I'm glad you made the trip, glad you had a great time, and I'm glad you had fantastic results! 

I really wish I could have hung out with you during this one - I had a great time last year - it is always a blast chatting with you, and I really wanted to hear the updates.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bertholomey said:


> Congrats! Gerald - I'm glad you made the trip, glad you had a great time, and I'm glad you had fantastic results!
> 
> I really wish I could have hung out with you during this one - I had a great time last year - it is always a blast chatting with you, and I really wanted to hear the updates.



Thanks for the kind words, Jason.

Sorry that you weren't able to make it. It wasn't the same without you. 

Now, I can do some really critical listening with your GTG disks. 

Ryan (Truthhunter) worked on my tune with a microphone on Friday and fixed some technical issues. If it wasn't for him, I wouldn't have done so well. Big thank you to him.

I'm going to Nick's Event in New York in August and then maybe just local GTGs after that. 

If I do only one competition a year, it will be at Nick's place due to the distance.


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

It was good seeing you and old friends again Gerald, I even met a few new friends, I didn’t get a chance to listen to your van but we’ll see each other at Nick’s show.Glad you made it back home with that crazy journey.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Mullings said:


> It was good seeing you and old friends again Gerald, I even met a few new friends, I didn’t get a chance to listen to your van but we’ll see each other at Nick’s show.Glad you made it back home with that crazy journey.


You had a really strong sounding vehicle. I was totally shocked that your system didn't place higher than it did. It was great hanging out with you at SVR. I'm looking forward to seeing you again at Nick's Event in 18 days. The van ran very smoothly on the 1500 mile round trip journey. Appreciate the nice words. See you soon!


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

Congrats Gerald! It was a great weekend indeed.

Thanks for giving me feedback with my system and I really appreciate you making a way for me to get into the Top 40 :thumbsup:

Looking forward to hearing your truck again at the NE 4X... Maybe get the mic out to see how it measures - should be interesting to see the changes and compare them to the SVR tune.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Truthunter said:


> Congrats Gerald! It was a great weekend indeed.
> 
> Thanks for giving me feedback with my system and I really appreciate you making a way for me to get into the Top 40 :thumbsup:
> 
> Looking forward to hearing your truck again at the NE 4X... Maybe get the mic out to see how it measures - should be interesting to see the changes and compare them to the SVR tune.


Thank you so very much Ryan for putting a microphone on my "by ear" tune and making the response curve much more smooth. If it wasn't for your help, the van wouldn't have scored as high as it did for sure. 

I appreciate your help immensely!!!!

I'm very glad that you were able to enter the Top 30 (40) and your placement was very strong! Congratulations !!!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Congrats, Gerald, on the finish!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

ErinH said:


> Congrats, Gerald, on the finish!


Thanks Erin so much! 

About 1/2 the judges (2 from MECA and 2 from the top 30) listened to my van with only one mid-bass playing ( and maybe a demo or two ). 

At some point the Left mid-bass amplifier went into protect mode. First and only time that's ever happened. I didn't realize that had happened till too late as I had a little brain fog that day. 

I just turned the key off and on and it came back to life. It kind of bummed me out that the system was not scored at it's maximum potential by all judges, but such is life. 

I had a great time this past weekend regardless and got to hang out with my car audio friends. 

Lot's of laughter, fun, and even more unforgettable memories. Your sense of humor and company was surely missed.


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Ended up Taking home three trophies ( plaques ) 1st in IASCA, 3rd in MECA Extreme, and 3rd place in the top 30 ( which actually became the top 40)


Congratulations, that's awesome.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

naiku said:


> Congratulations, that's awesome.


Thanks, Ian!!! It was a long, arduous trip, but I brought home a better sounding system then when I arrived, thanks to a few friends. I appreciate you taking the time to give me well wishes!!! Sorry that you and your son were not able to make it this time round.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So the passenger door still had the roll up glass, guides, chain, etc that was rattling from time to time. Removed all of that, vibration dampened the door and skin. 

Before putting the skin back, will apply that peel and stick hydrophobic Melamine foam. 

The sliding window now matches the driver's side.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Made a wood foot rest to go over top the metal one. Covered it with grip tape. 

Gives a non tactile place to rest my feet. That 18" I.E. subwoofer play's the 10 HZ note in "Genie in a Bottle" really well.


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## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

Man I can't believe I was with you all weekend at SVR and still never had a chance to hear your van. Congrats on the results! Maybe I will get a chance to hear it at Finals if you are there.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rockinridgeline said:


> Man I can't believe I was with you all weekend at SVR and still never had a chance to hear your van. Congrats on the results! Maybe I will get a chance to hear it at Finals if you are there.


Hi Tony,

I was looking for you throughout the weekend to jump in your ride and your son's, but I could never find you? Ryan C. pointed out to me your vehicles.

Anyhow, I appreciate the kind words and I would like to offer you Congratulations on your very strong finish as well, especially since there were 40 ( not 30 ) competitors.

My last competition will be at Nick Apicella's on the 18th of this Month. No Finals for me. Going forward, Nick's event will be the only event I attend on an Annual basis. ( It was going to be just SVR once annually, but even that is too far of a drive for me. )

Are you planning on attending Nick's event? 4X if you need points, plus a money round. I'm interested in exchanging demos if you can make it there!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

A quick photo of the Melamine foam on the inside of the outer door skin before covering it with the inner skin. It makes a huge difference in keeping out noise.


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## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

Thanks for the congrats. I wonder how I might have done had I not had issues with my tune. I had no low pass on my left midrange and both tweets had a low pass turned on in the crossover region. Both were issues with the bypass button on the helix being either on or on when it shouldn't have been. Steve Head listened to it after we found and corrected the problem and said that it cost me at least 2 points on his score sheet. Sadly it isn't the first time that I've made a mistake while tuning and didn't catch it. 

I won't be at Nick's event. Too far for me and don't really need any points. Maybe next year?

Good luck at the event and have fun. 

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Drove 28 hours to West Virginia and back. Attended Steele Valley Regionals for the second time.
> 
> Had a wonderful experience. Saw old friends and made some new ones.
> 
> ...


Congrats Gerald, I knew good things would come out of that vehicle. It sounded great when I heard it.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I rolled the OpAmp in my Arc Audio PS8 midrange position with a Burson Orange. 

So I have a few head units kicking around the shop to try and upon advise from some very well respected people in the car audio industry, I installed this head unit.

Nether changes did I like at first, but after about 5 hours of burning in, the Burson started opening up and I got a smoother sound, and the stage shifted from two dimensional more towards three. 

Same with the Sony CDX C-90. It has two 20 Bit Burr Brown Digital to Analog converters. 

I didn't like the sound at first, as it was flat, and dry sounding, but after about 5 hours or so, the focus and imaging became razor sharp. The soundstage starting expanding. And the placement of instruments became more defined. The room became much larger and open. 

After the Sony unit started opening up, it became easier to hear that my Time Alignment was off. The sound of my system always had a lack of focus and some reverberation. ( echo ). This was due to different drivers playing the same frequencies near the crossover points slightly out of time. It gave a surround sound mode kind of effect which was not ideal for sound quality but was kind of cool for fun listening. 

With the accuracy of the Sony, another change I was able to hear was that my midranges needed to be towed-in. It took about a half day to re-drill and re-attach the aluminum brackets, but the focus and depth of the center improved. 

The precision and accuracy of this Sony Head unit helped in figuring out the proper Time Alignment of all my drivers. 

So after 7 years or so, my time alignment is now locked in. Now with the TA correct, I could hear an imbalance in the mid-basses. They were on separate amplifiers and instead of playing test tones, and measuring voltage, I though it might be a good idea to put both woofers on a single amplifier. Since it worked well with the tweeters, I figured that it may work really well of the woofers.

With this one change, the system became a step closer to being balanced from left side to right. 

I also set the output levels on the DSP for the tweeters, mids, and woofers at the same exact level. This additional change made for a smoother overall sound from low frequency to high.

Now, since my system started out with 8 drivers and 7 amplifiers, and the simpler I made the system the better the sound, I decided to turn off the 18" subwoofer and allow the Brax 10.1 to play down to 20HZ. 

Now I have 6 drivers on three amplifiers. The system is starting to sound the best it ever has. 

With the T/A locked in, and crossovers set by someone who has been in the car audio world for many years, I see why everyone says get that crossovers, levels, and T/A set before trying to EQ. 

I set the EQ to flat, and I find it much easier to work on getting the tonality better with very tiny adjustments ( .01 Milliseconds )

What I am finding out is that I need a graphic EQ with about 100 bands with adjustments well below 20 HZ and well above 20KHz. 

I also need Time Alignment that has a resolution to 1/1000th of a millisecond to get this system really dialled-in.

I may go back to Analog crossover and EQ just to compare.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

That is a very cool thing to get to - less is more.......good stuff G - would love to demo. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bertholomey said:


> That is a very cool thing to get to - less is more.......good stuff G - would love to demo.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


It's funny that you were the one to make a comment, because I just so happen to have been re-listening to all of your disks during the last two days. 

I've been making notes as to which tracks were are my favorite.  And I was thinking to myself that you would be the one person to really get a kick out of hearing these familiar tracks with a different presentation.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

With the new Sony Unit, the accuracy is simply amazing. I'm in the middle stages of toeing in both the Midranges and the Mid-basses so they aim more towards the listening position.



Regarding needing T/A more precise than .01 Milliseconds, that issue still remains.



However with regards to more bands of EQ, I had been globally adjusting all 31 bands on all drivers simultaneously. I found that this is not a good idea whatsoever. 



The tweaking and tuning that I have been doing in the last couple of weeks has been with adjusting all 31 bands of frequencies only on (ONE) set of drivers at a time while playing music on all drivers.



For example, I adjusted all 31 bands one at a time on just the midrange drivers first while listening to music and listening for clarity in the top end and stronger, more pronounced bass.



It was weird to see that adjusting frequencies well outside the range that the drivers were suppose to be playing had a strong impact on the overall sound.



I then did the set of tweeters ( all 31 bands ) and then the Woofers ( all 31 bands). 



What shocked me is that adjusting 20Hz on the tweeters had significant effect of overall sound as well as adjusting 20,000Hz on the Woofers ( Midbass).



Adjusting all frequencies .1 DB at a time was not only audible, but at every frequency there was a correct setting for each of the 31 bands. When it's correct, overall clarity increases as well as bass strength and definition. 



I do not understand how this works, but I now have a system that plays with precision, razor sharp imaging, focus.



It also exhibits a three dimensionality that I only have ever heard in Scott Welch's Red Charger. 



I do not believe that the sound is proper for winning competitions as it is extremely immersive. 



Some demo's in the last couple weeks left people commenting that it sounded like " You are swallowed by the music ". 



Another person said today that " It sounds like you are listening to music from the inside of a boombox."



Yello is incredibly immersive and is my favorite music to demo my system. The sound is enveloping. 



A competition vehicle wants to be pushed well back from the sound stage. 



This system sounds almost like you are "inside" the music if that makes any sense. 





I have a lot more experimenting to do as there are some interesting old school products that I'm going to be implementing to the system that I was fortunate to find on E-bay as well as one item from Australia. They will be arriving in the next few days. I'll be posting photos once they all arrive.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

You’re nuts Gerald but that’s what I like about you. Looking forward to hearing that beastly machine again some day.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

AWESOME thread! Nice to see another Boston Acoustic GT amp out there!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

BP1Fanatic said:


> AWESOME thread! Nice to see another Boston Acoustic GT amp out there!


Thanks for the nice comment. I love Boston Acoustics. Their products were ahead of their time, especially with the Pro Series Speakers. They came with matched set of tweeters. 

Who does that today? No Car audio company that I know of. And I have not heard a modern car audio speaker that sounds as good as the Boston Acoustics Pro series. 

I'm not very sure how the Amplifier's stack up, but I know some of the GT amps were made in Italy in the Steg ( Mosconi ) factory and some were made in Malaysia.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

Here is a GT-28 dyno test.

https://youtu.be/-jPfz94TVz0


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I hung a ping pong ball from the ceiling with a string. Dead center of the cab, centered of the listening seat, right in front of my nose. The photo I took was really quick and the ball was swinging and the camera wasn't centered so it looks a hair off in the photo, but it's just parallax. 

This time, instead of aiming for a point behind my head using a framing square and string, I decided to use a laser level.

I made the drivers all aim directly at the string of that the ball was hanging from. The laser level lit up the entire length of the string. 

Enclosures were not only located the same distance from the string but symmetrical in the cab as well.

This one change made for the most dramatic improvement that I have ever done. The install is very, very important when it comes to getting imaging and transparency, and cohesiveness, as many of ya'll have tried to hammer in my head over and over. 

Of course I had to redo time alignment as all distances changed. I used Erin H's Tracerite.calc software to get me in the ball bark. The final delay settings were not very far off. Having only 6 drivers, and a center seat makes for only two delay figures.

LISTENING IMPRESSIONS:

I've been listening with the doors open, because I'm setting the system up for my enjoyment and not for competing. 

Hollow sounding character went away. Having the drivers aimed to a spot in front of my nose ( tip from Nick Apicella tuning video ) as opposed to a spot just behind my head made the hollow sound go away that no amount of tuning could fix.

DEPTH: The depth increased dramatically. This was one area I could not improve prior, no matter what I did with the DSP settings. 

Cohesiveness: All the drivers are now working in unison to create a unified sound. This caused the realism to increase along with transparency. 

RTA: The peaks were easier to locate and hear. I used a phone app RTA and made a few tweaks to my EQ settings got a relatively flat and smooth waterfall response curve for the very first time. I was shocked on how much easier it got to tune now that the speakers are all more accurately aimed to a better spot in front of the listening position.

The green peak lines in the RTA photos were before and after re-aiming of drivers with a handful small EQ tweaks. There was a dramatic increase in the smoothness of the response curve. This before/after ( re-aiming of drivers ) RTA measurements really shocked me. 

I still have some minor fine tuning EQ tweaks to do that are not far off from the major EQ work I did a few weeks ago. Even the problem areas I had around 100-125 Hz went away just by lowering 25 and 50Hz a tad. 
These same adjustments did not help earlier when I tried them. 

I learned that sometimes RTA issues that show up on the graph do so at a harmonic frequency and cannot be fixed by tweaking that harmonic frequency. 

The way the system sounds now, compared to any point in the past, it seems like the I had been competing with an un-tuned system. I'm surprised that I managed to do as well as I did. 

I had ordered a bunch of old school analog equipment that I was going to try and incorporate into the system, but at this time I am truly happy with the way the system sounds. 

I also ordered the matching Processor that goes with the Sony head unit to try as an experiment as well. It has four 24 bit D/A converters instead of the dual 20 bit D/A converters which in theory should give for even more precision.

Other than the fine tuning EQ tweaks that I have to do, I can't imagine the sound improving much from where it is at this point. 

I have learned a hard lesson about the importance of tuning and install. In the past, I was very hard headed and close minded.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I'm very much happy with the sound of the system. I've never been satisfied, or content in the past and always felt the system needed a professional tune because I wasn't able to get it quite right. 

But now, with the speaker relocation/re-aiming the tuning process is getting easier. I have to admit that having such large drivers that are made to fill up a room in a house make for a challenge when put into a relatively small space such as the passenger compartment of a step van. 

With a tip from a facebook group post, I learned that individual EQ of every pair of drivers and sub was necessary in order to get clean, focused, detailed, sound with the correct tonality. 

Last night I turned my AE 18" sub back on and now that the rest of the system is tuned properly, the sub added to the overall SQ of the system rather than detracting. I messed around with crossover point and it seemed to be most cohesive with the rest of the drivers when crossed at 50hz 4th order LR.

But I had to individually EQ all 31 bands on the Sub itself in order to get clarity and focus.

So now that I'm totally happy and satisfied with the sound after a long 7 1/2 year process of designing and fabricating and installing and learning how to tune, I've reached a point where I'm very much content and have something that I'm proud of. 

I really do not wish to touch the system as it stands, but I'm going to continue to do a couple more experiments.

The first is to install the matching Sony ES processor that is designed to be used with the Sony ES Head unit. The head unit has dual 20 bit DA converters and the processor has quad 24 bit. I'm going to be just passing the digital signal from the Sony CDX-C90 source unit via optical cable to the XDP-4000X and using it only for the DA converters which will output full range signal via a set of RCA cables to the ARC PS8 which will still handle all of the processing.

The second experiment will be to install and re-tune using all the analog gear in the photo below. I'll be using the settings I made in the PS8 and transferring those to the analog counterparts.

The Nakamichi will be used to cross the signal, the Audio Control EQT's will handle each set of Driver individual EQ, and I found some Precision Power phase shift controllers to dial in the time alignment.

At this point in time, I have no idea what I am in search for because I really don't want to change the way it sounds, however, I purchased this gear before I made the driver re-aiming and alignment so I'm committed to at least try the stuff out to satisfy my curiosity to see how going back to all analog compares.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Good stuff Gerald! I’m really interested in your evaluation of each experiment. 

The Sony piece before the PS8 - whether you can discern an improvement vs going from the HU directly to the PS8. 

And I’m very intrigued whether putting the same settings into the analog pieces that are in the digital piece will render a similar sound or a radically different sound. Pretty cool to see all the analog pieces that are needed to do the ‘same’ thing that the one digital processor can do. 

I’m glad you are willing to do all of this so we can get your impressions from these experiments - you will need to bring it down to NC so I can here the changes too! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Good stuff Gerald, can’t wait to heat it at your next get together


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bertholomey said:


> Good stuff Gerald! I’m really interested in your evaluation of each experiment.
> 
> The Sony piece before the PS8 - whether you can discern an improvement vs going from the HU directly to the PS8.
> 
> ...


I've been re-listening to all your disks in the last few days. Some amazing sounding tracks in the mix for sure. I was just thinking to myself that out of everyone I know, I feel as if you would enjoy listening to music the most on this system. 

So it is my goal to get you in the center seat, so a trip to NC may be in the future!!!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Mullings said:


> Good stuff Gerald, can’t wait to heat it at your next get together


I may try an throw a last minute GTG Sunday November 10th in Taunton, MA which is closer to you by about 1/2 hour from the last GTG, but I'm waiting to hear back from the host to see if it is ok with him.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I may try an throw a last minute GTG next Sunday in Taunton, MA which is closer to you by about 1/2 hour from the last GTG, but I'm waiting to hear back from the host to see if it is ok with him.


If my son doesn’t have a playoff game too late I’ll make an appearance Gerald for the GTG. That’s only an hour and 7 minutes from me. 

Also, as soon as you know for sure I can put it up on other places as well.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

JCsAudio said:


> If my son doesn’t have a playoff game too late I’ll make an appearance Gerald for the GTG. That’s only an hour and 7 minutes from me.
> 
> Also, as soon as you know for sure I can put it up on other places as well.


Hi John,

The thread for thr GTG is located here:

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...422829-2019-north-east-sound-quality-gtg.html


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I've been tuning by ear for a very long time. 

Every time I think that it sounds the best it ever has, I leave and come back, listen to the system again and I hear things I don't like.

So I decided to tune with a microphone, REW, and some pink noise. It took me just about 3 hours. 

The sound is different for sure. It's probably a good competition tune as music sounds as it is pushed far away from the listening position.

I guess this is the correct way to listen to music, but I'm not use to it. My normal is where the listening position is in the middle of the orchestra, or in the middle of the audience.

Having all the frequencies play at or near the same volume level sounds very smooth, but I feel like all the life or "as if you were there" quality has been removed. 

For example, there is a track where I was once in the audience listening to a guitar play. People were randomly hooting and hollering and I remember being startled when they yelled out as if someone was sitting right next to me and it shocked me as it sounded like a real person just randomly yelled out and it felt like they were in the van with me. 

That same track now sounds as if I'm positioned well back from the audience and that same hollering isn't as startling. Don't get me wrong, it still sounds like a real person, however, I'm seated further away from that person. 

The sound on the far Right and Left edges of the stage use to wrap back almost to my immediate flanks and made for a headphone like type of experience.

With this tune, the Far Left/Right stage boundaries are pushed further away towards the windscreen. 

I know when I first started learning how to tune, and heard all the instruments separated from one another, I didn't like it in the beginning. It took me a year 1/2 to two years to get use to listening to music that way. 

Today, listening to music in my personal vehicle without separation drives me crazy. 

Perhaps, I will get use to listening to music this way, only time will tell.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I also noticed something interesting. 

When my system was tuned by ear (or in essence not smooth response curve) small .01 DB adjustments made a noticeable change in the sound.

After using REW and a Microphone and getting the adjoining frequencies close to the same level, I figured that I would have to fine tune by ear each and every frequency for all 31 bands of every driver to dial it in as I had done many on past tunes. 

What surprised me is that making those small adjustments up or down in .01DB increments did not seem to have an audible effect?????

This might make sense to those that are more experienced than me, but I found it interesting.

The tune with the Response curve in the photo below has the top end slightly inclined. The next day this tune sounded slightly fatiguing, so I made the top end flat, which fixed that issue. 

Later today, I will take another listen and see if I'm happy with the tune as it stands.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Looks like your subwoofer is out of phase with your mids from that REW graph. Time alignment should be checked for that to make sure its correct or this can happen. Not knowing what DSP you have can you switch back and forth between tunes to compare them. This sometimes helps me figure out what I like best. I will often switch back and forth while listening to songs on my long drive to Boston to compare them. I learned a lot in the beginning on figuring out my personal preferences.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

JCsAudio said:


> Looks like your subwoofer is out of phase with your mids from that REW graph. Time alignment should be checked for that to make sure its correct or this can happen. Not knowing what DSP you have can you switch back and forth between tunes to compare them. This sometimes helps me figure out what I like best. I will often switch back and forth while listening to songs on my long drive to Boston to compare them. I learned a lot in the beginning on figuring out my personal preferences.


It took me a while to figure out how to figure out why I wasn't getting much sound from my woofers. I played test tones and from 50 hz to 80 hz there was nothing. 

I started testing everything and finally I checked my one parametric EQ setting. 

It was at 316 HZ so I didn't think it would have an effect on the sound, however I was trying to have a huge narrow cut at that frequency. -12.4 gain.

I got mixed up with Q. I had put a Q setting of .1 when I should have had it at 19.9

So I had a huge swath of frequencies that were cut out. 

I was wondering why I had such a huge suck-out. LOL!

Thanks for pointing that out to me!!!!

That problem is fixed however now I have to do a complete re-tune.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

With some technical help from a couple of friends ( as I'm not computer literate enough ) Installed the Sony XDP-4000 Processor last night. I thought I had all the necessary equipment but I had one wire too short.

I needed an optical converter for the back of the head unit, Optical cable, USB to serial Bus Adapter with driver software, Null cable, Windows XP laptop, and Uni-link cable to go between the head unit in the front and processor in the rear.

The Processor only came with a 6 foot Unity cable so I had to improvise in order to test the sound. Removed the air conditioner in order to pass the cable into the cab through one of the AC holes. Also had to remove the head unit form the enclosure in order to make things just reach as the power wires come from the front. I had to cut the head unit enclosure so that the 90 Degree optical adapter and cable would plug in and seat flush. 

I found a 19 foot cable on E-bay and ordered it last night, so it should be arriving in the next few days.


Listening impressions:

The digital to analog converters in the Processor make for a clearer, cleaner, crisper sound. I noticed the attack is quicker, and the micro details have gotten better. There is a bit more realism, as it sounds more like the listener is in the room with the musicians. 

The characteristic that would describe the change that occurred by adding this piece into the loop was more Precision. 

As a side benefit, by pulling the AC away from the wall and exposing the small passageways through the wall into the rear compartment of the van, the overall sound changed for the better in my opinion.

Allowing the air pressure created in the Cab to be able to escape to the rear compartment through those small vents allows the system to "breathe" better for lack of better terms. I kept listening to music and switching back and forth between plugging the vents with the AC and moving the AC back away from the vents. 

Having the vents open makes for a more natural, open and airy sound and it affects all frequencies. This was an interesting and surprising side benefit, that I was not expecting. I guess Ben Zimmerman's comment about having more air space has come into play in this scenario.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

The used 19' cable came and i hooked it up last night. It must have a short in it as my CD Drive would not play, the display would not light up, and the drive made weird noises, after installation.

So when pulling the head unit back out to disconnect the defective cable, I broke the all important/delicate Sony Optical cable adapter, which only comes in a 90 degree angle causing my demise.

I ordered a new Optical Adapter and set of New AI Net Cables which will be here in a few days. 

So for the get together on Sunday, I'll just be running off the head unit D/A's, not the Sony Processor 24 Bit D/A's. 

But the 20 Bit Sony C-90 happens to be more precise than all the 1 Bit Alpine units that I have run in all competitions since starting competing. 

It's a serious piece in itself.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Gerald, I see that you have the Sony RM-X9 wireless IR "candy bar" remote for CDX-C90. Do you also have the RM-X90 wired rotary commander remote?

Also, if your main source for music playback is still via CD discs, you may want to add one or two Sony 10-Disc CD Changers to your C90/XDP-4000X setup.

You can usually find the Sony 10-Disc CD Changers fairly cheap on eBay. Make sure the model that you purchase has the Toslink Optical Digital Output and includes the 2 mounting feet.

The Toslink digital output from the CD Changer plugs directly into the XDP-4000x processor, and you would need another Sony Uni-Link bus cable to connect the two as well.

The Sony CDX-828 was a popular 10-disc CD changer that has the Toslink optical output, and there are a lot of them out there. It was actually one of Sony's "ES" units even though that designation isn't in the actual model number. See this eBay auction for reference...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-CDX-C90-Sony-CDX-828-RARE-NEW/312534149071

There are a few other Sony CD changer models with the Toslink output as well, but the 828 was most popular.

And the interchangeable/swap-able #XA-10B 10-disc CD magazine/cartridges are plentiful on eBay as well.

The SQ when adding the XDP-4000X to the C90 is definitely a step up, and IMO still holds its own in comparison to more modern "DACs" in current DSPs.

Have fun with it.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bbfoto said:


> Gerald, I see that you have the Sony RM-X9 wireless IR "candy bar" remote for CDX-C90. Do you also have the RM-X90 wired rotary commander remote?
> 
> Also, if your main source for music playback is still via CD discs, you may want to add one or two Sony 10-Disc CD Changers to your C90/XDP-4000X setup.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the comment, I see that I have a lot of followers but not many people actually post. 

I actually purchased the C-90 Brand new in box last year, so I do have the RM-X90 wired remote, as well as the candy bar IR Remote. 
I'm using just the IR remote during listening sessions. 
As far as getting a CD changer, I've used them back in the day ( pioneer 6 disk ).

95% of the time, the van really just sits in my heated workshop and I use it to decompress after work to listen to music in before heading home in my personal vehicle . 
The front windows are blacked out and there is egg crate foam along the side windows to help tame reflections.
The other 5% of the time, I'm traveling with it to competitions or our semi-annual SQ Get together events. 

I like that idea of a changer or two as I could put many disks ( Jason Bertholomy's Disks ) in and not have to shuffle through disk after disk.
But at the same time, I was just thinking that maybe a simpler step up might be easier and possibly a step better.

I was thinking re-installing/using my Oppo Universal Disk player which can play Blu-Ray audio at a higher bit and sampling rate and sending the signal from that via RCA or maybe even better, Digital optical or digital coaxial directly to the ARC Audio PS8 which handles all the processing now. 

I am using the Sony XDP-4000X just for the D/A converters.

The Oppo Blu Ray player has dual 32 bit D/A converters, one for stereo and one for 7.1 channels. The SABRE32 Reference ES9018 from ESS Technology. Here is a link to the specifications for that chip: 
They market it as the world's highest performing D/A converter solutions.



ESS Technology :: SABRE DACs



It might sound like I keep changing gear on my system because I'm not happy with the sound. 
Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy and content with the sound, but when it comes to this system, I love experimenting and pushing the boundaries when it comes to gear. My goal is to squeeze every last bit of sound quality that I can out of this system. 

I have taken this system past my wildest expectations and every time I experiment with a new piece, I get shocked with the results. I'm sure at one point I'll reach that point of diminishing returns, but for now the experiment continues.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I just experimented with a tuning method that made a significant improvement with a dramatic jump in realism, detail, and separation.

For years, I was convinced that I could tune by ear and recently discovered that a microphone and pink noise yielded better results.

Just a few nights ago, I took my microphone REW tune and listened to test tones on an old school IASCA CD that someone had sent me as a gift when purchasing one of my Old School Phase Shift units. This was the same tune that took me 3 hours with REW and the UMIC 1 and Pink Noise. 

I noticed that when playing test tones that there were significant variances in volume levels both audibly and with the use of a phone RTA app. of many different frequencies between 20hz and 20Khz.

The differences surprised me as I though that Pink Noise was a close representation of all frequencies at the same volume level. But for some reason, it was way off. It reminds me of when I watched Kyle Ragsdale tuning video series on Youtube and he noticed the same thing.

So I made very significant cuts ( both with Parametric and Graphic and even used some global EQ ) and it took about an hour. This was done just using the phone RTA App. ( I-phone 7 in battery case ) 

All I can say is WOW!

Everyone should be tuning with 30 band test tones instead of Pink Noise 
( unless one can find corrected Pink Noise ). The Pink Noise I had used in the past was from Sheffield Labs - MY Disk as well as the Pink Noise from the same Old School IASCA test CD.

Besides the improvements that I listed above, what shocks me even more is that the system jumped up leaps in how revealing has become. 

I've been using Jason's Bertholomy's GTG disks as my reference material, as the music he chose is well recorded, is from many different Genres and interesting track selections. 

However, with this new tuning method, I found not only dramatic improvements in details in the music itself, but it seems like now the differences in recording methods that the recording engineer chose ( such as microphone quality choices, cable choices, microphone location distances from instruments and singers, mixer equipment selection, etc. ) vary significantly from track to track. Not to mention getting a much higher sense of the characteristics of the room in which the recording was made. 

It also reveals more so, the response curve that the recording engineer chose to Master the recording with. It seems as if when the levels are set evenly on one's system, more details become unmasked. 

Now I'm curious to see if I used the same test tones and REW with the Umik 1 and spend several hours getting the curve even smoother, if there will be another change?


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Glad to see you’re making strides towards nailing down a tuning process Gerald. I just redid the tune for my Sienna last night and I’m shocked at how much better it sounds now. I followed the same process I used on my CX5 which I’ve perfected over the last year on my Ford. 

I wonder how Jim is making out with what he learned at the meet. I haven’t heard from him. I was going to suggest that he disable his midrange in his DSP and tune the system as a two way active. If he still has the same issue than it’s not his midrange that is the problem.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

JCsAudio said:


> Glad to see you’re making strides towards nailing down a tuning process Gerald. I just redid the tune for my Sienna last night and I’m shocked at how much better it sounds now. I followed the same process I used on my CX5 which I’ve perfected over the last year on my Ford.
> 
> I wonder how Jim is making out with what he learned at the meet. I haven’t heard from him. I was going to suggest that he disable his midrange in his DSP and tune the system as a two way active. If he still has the same issue than it’s not his midrange that is the problem.


The vehicle that you brought to the GTG sounded really good, and your tuning skills are evolving as well. It's very neat to go to meet ups and competitions and hear other peoples systems. Every time that I go, I learn something from someone that I can implement for use on my system. 

A lot of people have an aversion to competitions because they do not want to feel the pressure of measuring up or think they have to have a really serious system. 

I found that the opposite is true. The first competition that I went to, in fall of 2015 in Syracuse, NY I had no idea what a sound stage even was. At every competition that I have attended I have met a bunch of great guys that have helped me along the way and some of which I would consider some of my best friends. 

Just from attending and hanging out at these places, and spending time with others that have been involved with I've learned tips and tricks from many people along the way, just from having conversations or from observing and listening to both vehicles and people engaged in conversation. 

I'm curious to see the outcome of Jim's dilemma. It was very nice of you to spend as much time as you did trying to help him out. It was a very generous gesture of your time and knowledge. 

Overall, I thought that this particular GTG was the best so far, because of how laid-back it was. We have a good group of guys and it was great to see both old and new faces. 

Thank you for promoting the event on the other forum. I enjoyed exchanging demos as well as our conversation. Already itching for Spring to roll around so I can attend more competitions as well as having our Spring Meet Up!


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Meets and comps very much enhance the hobby! It is a lot of theoretical, a lot of your own echo chamber until you can speak face to face, listen to other’s cars - and especially, have knowledgeable folks that can articulate what they hear - listening to your car. 

That is what I’m doing in Augusta today 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bertholomey said:


> Meets and comps very much enhance the hobby! It is a lot of theoretical, a lot of your own echo chamber until you can speak face to face, listen to other’s cars - and especially, have knowledgeable folks that can articulate what they hear - listening to your car.
> 
> That is what I’m doing in Augusta today
> 
> ...


Oh, man I'm jealous!!!!

Especially seeing all the meats that Jason Carter has in preparation for this Event. I wish that I could have made the long journey. 

Thanks so much Jason B. for chiming in. 
For anyone that isn't aware Jason B. hosts the biggest car audio GTG nationwide, I believe. But I'm sure most everyone on this forum already know about them. Jason hosts car audio events in North Carolina ( NCSQ). They are fun, relaxed and informal. As many as 30-50plus vehicles attend. I drove the beast all the way to N.C. to attend one of his events. 

It was at one of his events that I found out how great a tuned system can sound like. It really opened my eyes to the wonderful people involved with car audio.

Have fun today, Jason and tell Jason Carter that I said hello if you get a chance!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So I sealed back up the AC holes. Started listening again with the doors shut and the treatments up. 

I got a "New to me" Oppo Blu Ray player with a 32 bit D/A converter and put it up against the Sony C-90 / 24 bit 4000 Processor combo with all processing done through the ARC PS8.

I played the same CD track in the Sony, had me and my helper listen to the same track from the Center seat and switched to the Oppo and played the same track. Both of us heard an instrument separated from the rest that we didn't hear with the Sony. 

What I gained when upgrading installing the Sony 4000, I got a little more of when upgrading to the Oppo. 

The separation between instruments is what is noticeable most. 

CDs play at 16 Bit 44.1khz. 
The Blu Ray can play up to 24 Bit 196khz.

I played some concerts and forgot what I was missing all these months when I was more focused on getting the Audio right. 

The concerts are great. Especially Phil Collins live at Montreaux 2004. WOW!

Adding the picture just makes the Van sound system more engaging.

I still have to cover the box in black carpet, but got it built today.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Here's a link to a Blu Ray clip I took from the inside of the Van.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn0ByMy2_0U

Also put a few CD's in the back shelves.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So I've been experimenting with the old school audio gear. I thought that I would need just three EQTs for equalization, because I thought they were stereo but they are in fact mono. So instead of purchasing 3 more EQTs and putting one on each driver, ( as well as purchasing more interconnects ) I decided to experiment with what I have.

I hooked up two EQTs right after the Oppo and sent that signal to the back. That signal went right into the Nakamichi crossover which had the same crossover settings as I was using in the DSP. From the Nakamichi, the Highs went directly to the tweeter amp as there is no delay on those.
The mids went to a phase shift controller ( using cheap RCA cables ) and then on tho the mid-range amp. Same with the lows.

At first, I couldn't find a way to control volume through the Oppo, so I used a fader control in line between the Output of the EQT and the input of the Nakamichi.

The Sound:

I played some BB King on Blu-ray because I just had been listening to it using the ARC PS8 and the sound was fresh in my mind. What I immediately noticed, was that I had lost some separation between instruments. I didn't have more Audioquest cables to use between each piece of equipment, but I wanted to get a feel for the Analog equipment.

I then removed the fader control from the loop and the separation between instruments increased significantly but not quite up to the level of using all Audioquest interconnects. From that experiment, I validated my hypothesis that Richard Clark's Amplifier test as well as Ethan Winer Null test was incorrect as they both used a piece of equipment which acted as a filter in the loop.

The results of my experiments have shown that no matter how different the input signal may be, if one uses a filter in the loop, the resulting sound will be degraded to the same extent due to the filter. This experiment, (along with the others that I have made during the process of putting together this system), reaffirms my claim that I have been making since I've joined this forum that all parts of the chain in the electrical signal from the battery on through the entire electrical path which ends at the to speakers have an influence on the sound. Everything matters. Battery composition and quality, wire composition, size and quality, terminations quality, source unit selection, interconnects, wire length, size and type, and speaker selection.

What I was wrong about was that I didn't give enough credit to install and tuning, which everyone on this forum was trying to get through to me. The most dramatic change to my system was when I re-aimed drivers to the correct angle relative to the listening position, which allowed me to get depth for the first time as well as more cohesion and better staging characteristics as well as better focus and precision.

With regards to tuning, I will admit that for me, tuning is very difficult. I'm not very good at it, and I'm still learning as I go. I think it would take many more years and discipline for me to master tuning. My strength is in my brain's ability to process spacial differences and L/R information and notice subtle changes in sound.

Conclusion:

Just with my few days of messing around with the Analog gear, I'm fairly confident that if I were to purchase the additional EQT's, Interconnects, and one more phase shift controller for the 18" IB sub, that I could get my system with analog gear to sound nearly identical to the system with the Arc PS8 DSP. It almost does right now, but not quite.

I have no desire to invest more time, effort and money to take this experiment to its end just to demonstrate that it can be done.

For now, I need to invest all my effort into getting the tune using the ARC PS8 perfected. I would say that over the last few months, my tuning skills have improved. I feel as if I've taken my system to about 90 to 95 percent of it's maximum potential which has changed since the driver re-aiming and source unit upgrades.

Hopefully, over the next month or so, I can take the system to it's limit, but I'm thinking that I may need to reach out for help. Honestly, I don't think have enough experience, patience, or discipline to do it myself.

Future Plans:

I still have three experiments to try before I call it quits, though. I want to swap out my woofers, possibly my mid-range Amp, and to try out some Synergistic Research fuses and other products they offer. I do have an end goal in my sights. Hopefully, I'll be able to get these last few experiments done by the end of the 2020 Competition season.

One thing that I did miss out on was going to Finals in 2019. I'm glad that I worked on my system instead, and got it imaging better, but when I attended Finals 2018, it was so cool hanging out and seeing the entire car audio community there in one location. One thing that helped, was the ability to watch the awards ceremony via the internet, as well as watching some of Nick Apicella's Competitor Spotlight videos.

But if health and wealth allow, I'm planning on competing in the 2020 Season, mainly to share my creation with anybody that cares to give it a listen, but also to hang out with the gang of friends that I have made since entering this great hobby of ours.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

That is good stuff Gerald. I wish those pieces had been stereo so you could have used them for the entire system, but it sounded like it was an illuminating experience none the less. 

It is a good reminder of what is contained within these small black boxes called DSPs.....pretty amazing what they are capable of in such a small package. 

I’m looking forward to reading about the additional few things you have planned, and I’ll hopefully see you at one of the events next year. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So I've been listening to the system for the last few weeks and I feel that it's finally D.O.N.E. as far as tuning goes!!! It feels very strange and weird as I have been adjusting, swapping, re-aiming as well as tuning and tweaking things for the past 7 years and I've never been quite satisfied with the tune.

I always felt that the system could be improved upon in one way or another, but since I've done the test tone tune on November 16th I'm content as she sits now. I made a couple level adjustments in the Bass/Sub Bass and and adjusted one frequency by ear since. But with the addition of those couple of







changes, I'm totally happy.

Now I just need to get as many sets of ears critically listening to the system to get listening impressions. I welcome any and all feedback from beginner to expert, but I'm especially curious to see what the feedback may be from those who either have had many years experience in car and home audio or who have gone to Judges training school.

I finally have a system that I'm proud of and that I don't have to make excuses for ( in my own head ). I'm hopefully not going to hear the words "This system has the potential to sound really good." anymore, which I heard over and over from many different listeners. ( Fingers crossed ).

Now I have to work on an demo/evaluation disk that I feel highlights the strongest parts of the system.

I added an Tru Line Output Conditioner to bump up the juice. The home audio Oppo Player does not have the output voltage as high the car Audio Sony Combo has, but it is nice to be able to play Blu-Rays concerts as the audio can be of higher quality.

The audio alone stands on it's own merits ( IMHO) , but having the screen adds the visual cues that add a different flavor to the experience. I removed the screen for a very long time as to focus on just the sound. I'm wondering if having the screen in there detracts or diminishes the audio part of the equation or adds to and enhances it?

I'll include both audio only and audio/video in my demos and ask for feedback in order to make that determination.


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I'm hopefully not going to hear the words "This system has the potential to sound really good." anymore, which I heard over and over from many different listeners.


Haha the phrase you don't really want to hear after spending ages working on your tune and think it's great. 

Hope catch up with you at a meet somewhere next year and get an updated demo.


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Set the date for the next gtg Gerald as I have something interesting for you to listen to too


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

naiku said:


> Haha the phrase you don't really want to hear after spending ages working on your tune and think it's great.
> 
> Hope catch up with you at a meet somewhere next year and get an updated demo.


Hello Ian,
and thanks for the reply. If health and wealth provide, I will be making rounds in the competition circuit for 2020 and if you hold a GTG I might possibly attend that one. But I will be going to SVR for sure, and Nicks event if he plans one out. I'm going to try and gather enough points to go to Louisville in the fall. So I may be in Virginia or MD if need be. Maybe you can invite a judge or two to your event and make it into a Competition for anyone that needs points. ( Like Jason Carter did ) That might be a great idea????

It would be cool to see and hear the changes that you've done to your system as well.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Mullings said:


> Set the date for the next gtg Gerald as I have something interesting for you to listen to too


Hi Kevin,
I was hoping that the next GTG would be at your shop in the Spring. I put a bug in Nicks ear today. Hopefully he will plan something well ahead of time to give people a time period to get their systems ready. Unlike me who threw the last one together with just two or three weeks notice. ( lol ) 
I'm interested to listen to what you have cooking.


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Hello Ian,
> and thanks for the reply. If health and wealth provide, I will be making rounds in the competition circuit for 2020 and if you hold a GTG I might possibly attend that one. But I will be going to SVR for sure, and Nicks event if he plans one out. I'm going to try and gather enough points to go to Louisville in the fall. So I may be in Virginia or MD if need be. Maybe you can invite a judge or two to your event and make it into a Competition for anyone that needs points. ( Like Jason Carter did ) That might be a great idea????
> 
> It would be cool to see and hear the changes that you've done to your system as well.


All going well I should also be at SVR this year, I am not yet 100% certain on hosting a meet, spoke to Jason B last year and am thinking of just doing something in the Fall, instead of both Spring and Fall, we'll see though, depends on if I get enough interest to make a Spring one worthwhile. Inviting a judge could also be fun, but in some ways that pulls a little of the fun out of a meet, definitely worth thinking about though as well. I'm hoping there are a few more events in VA/MD next year, but not counting on it as there were virtually none this year (at least that I was aware of, despite regularly checking).


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

So I decided to try an experiment. Swapping my 10" Brax 10.1 for Raven 10XL Woofers. I'm very impressed with the swap. The Brax are designed as subwoofers and I was using them as mid-basses. The Ravens are called Subwoofers, but they play flat up to 1500hz. So they are a much better fit for my application. ( I have them crossed at 160hz ) The Brax are awesome subwoofer drivers but do not play well above 80hz. 
The speakers were installed today and are not even broken in. 

The results are just amazing. Much more depth, and realism. The system is far more cohesive and all the drivers blend better. 

The system is many, many times easier to tune. I'm very happy with these drivers. To date this is the best improvement and was much needed.

Included is a photo of the mid-bass EQ before and after the swap. Very little EQ is needed to get everything to blend better. 

Much easier to get the vocals to sound proper, both male and female. 

Later in the week ( Thursday ) a different amplifier will be installed to power these up. The manufacturer recommends a minimum of 800 watts and a maximum of 1600. So the Boston Acoustics GT will be replaced with a gently used Italian Powerhouse Mosconi Zero 1. 

I'll post my subjective impressions once that is installed.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

EQ before and after driver swap.


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Hey Gerald, it’s good to hear from you again, I was gonna call you last Sunday but decided not to until then corona **** pass, improvements are always good, can’t wait to hear it


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Mullings said:


> Hey Gerald, it’s good to hear from you again, I was gonna call you last Sunday but decided not to until then corona **** pass, improvements are always good, can’t wait to hear it


I know that you have some changes as well. I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing what you did with your system. We were planning a GTG in May, but we have to see what happens with this Planned demmic first.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

I was going to say those Raven subs look like the old Illusion Audio Carbon subs but the specs are definitely different with the Ravens designed to play deeper bass. A little low on sensitivity but can take some power. Glad you were able to reduce the amount of DSP used and that you like the sound. Enjoy!


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

May sounds good to me. I’m hoping this panic thing goes away quickly and we can get back to normal soon too. I made a ported box for two GB12 and it’s just way to much bass to tame for me. Thinking of either going back to the single design or run duel sealed setup in a more stealth fashion so I can gain back some utility. Also have drivers to go three way but time isn’t on my side lately and I’ve been spending my available time getting my Bass boat ready. Depending on where this GTG is this time I may bring a different vehicle this time. The truck sounds really good lately but does need some better tuning in the 80-350 Hz region in my opinion.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

dgage said:


> I was going to say those Raven subs look like the old Illusion Audio Carbon subs but the specs are definitely different with the Ravens designed to play deeper bass. A little low on sensitivity but can take some power. Glad you were able to reduce the amount of DSP used and that you like the sound. Enjoy!


You are correct. The design of the Ravens is very similar to the Illusion XL subwoofers. Both brands are owned by Orca. The 12" models have a lot more in common spec wise than the 10" models. I've been using the 10" models in my Scion for a while now and I am extremely happy with the Ravens.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

dgage said:


> I was going to say those Raven subs look like the old Illusion Audio Carbon subs but the specs are definitely different with the Ravens designed to play deeper bass. A little low on sensitivity but can take some power. Glad you were able to reduce the amount of DSP used and that you like the sound. Enjoy!


Thanks so much. I did some more tuning last night, changed the crossover points and now the EQ for the Ravens is set almost perfectly flat with maybe .1 or .2 DB variances. 

What an amazing driver. The first time that I heard illusion audio was in Erin H. civic and they were 10" drivers the the installed in the kicks.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

JCsAudio said:


> May sounds good to me. I’m hoping this panic thing goes away quickly and we can get back to normal soon too. I made a ported box for two GB12 and it’s just way to much bass to tame for me. Thinking of either going back to the single design or run duel sealed setup in a more stealth fashion so I can gain back some utility. Also have drivers to go three way but time isn’t on my side lately and I’ve been spending my available time getting my Bass boat ready. Depending on where this GTG is this time I may bring a different vehicle this time. The truck sounds really good lately but does need some better tuning in the 80-350 Hz region in my opinion.


 Our Spring GTG was going to be planned for May at Mike's place in Sandwich again. Mike agreed to host, and at that location, we did have one a great turn out. Thoughts on putting together a GTG with a "limit" of 10 attendees?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

The Ravens call for gobs of power ( 800 to 1600 watts ), so I decided to upgrade the amplifier powering them. Disconnected the Boston Acoustics GT-22 ( some of which were made in Italy at the Mosconi factory in Italy and some are made in Malaysia ) and install a gently used Mosconi Zero 1 which came in the mail on Friday. Boy is it a big and heavy amplifier. Shout out to Steve W. for hooking me up!!!

At first I didn't notice much difference, and I was unimpressed.........but then I realized it was a tuning issue. 
The E.Q. is very sensitive to changes. .1 or .2 DB level adjustments make the system either Extremely Dynamic or very weird sounding and dead. 
I ran out of tuning time last night but I'm very close. I have the smoothest waterfall Response curve that I've had to date and the system is the most dynamic it ever has been. But having one frequency incorrect by .1 DB messes up the entire dynamic impact. 

I don't understand how it works exactly, however, the way I would describe it is that all the speakers are working in cohesion or even a slight change at .1DB at any frequency causes mayhem and caos and all the drivers start to battle each other and the system looses impact. I must be getting close to having the tune correct?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rton20s said:


> You are correct. The design of the Ravens is very similar to the Illusion XL subwoofers. Both brands are owned by Orca. The 12" models have a lot more in common spec wise than the 10" models. I've been using the 10" models in my Scion for a while now and I am extremely happy with the Ravens.


Thank you Dustin for giving me the confidence in a PM to share with me your experience with your Ravens, and the confidence to make the leap and invest all that dough!!! Everything that you wrote about them is true and I have them crossed at 112 DB down to (34.5 Hz I think?) But they can play so smoothly at all frequencies ( up to 1500 ) that they make tuning so much easier. 

I appreciate your help and time, my friend.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I have spent the last several years trying to teach myself how to tune. It has been a quite frustrating battle to say the least. Many of times, I've wanted to throw in the towel and give up and hire a professional tuner that has years of experience and has spent the time learning all of the tricks of the trade. 
Maybe a seasoned tuner could have taken the system with the Brax drivers and done a work around to get them to work, but with the frequency range that I needed them to play, they just were not designed to play that high. It is my thought that making a work around would be limiting the systems potential.

With that being said, I still love them and would recommend them to anyone when used as strictly a sub-woofer crossed at 80 Hz or lower. They are powerhouses, have a huge magnet and provide impact and punch so much so, that I did not want to get rid of them and that is why I held on to them so long.

They Brax 10.1 are expensive drivers, coupled with the fact that the Ravens were even more expensive is what made me hold off for so long. It has been over two and 1/2 years since I considered experimenting with the Ravens but between the financial aspect and not wanting to throw money at a problem that could have just been a tuning issue, and not having the actual funds to make the purchase, it's been a long wait.

Knowing firsthand of how excellent of a driver they are, I would have purchased them much sooner. But having a difficult experience with trying to get the sound right, lead me down the alley of aiming drivers, which is a road I never would have gone down, had the system sounded better. I guess this is what Dave Wilson of Wilson Audio Home speakers stumbled across in his experience, as with the Flagship WAMM Master-Chronosonic and his experience with the time domain. 





__





Wilson Audio | WAMM Master Chronosonic






www.wilsonaudio.com





I spent about 1/2 of a day re-aiming my drivers last week. Earlier in the past, I had used a laser and made sure all my drivers were aimed vertically at a string hanging from the ceiling. That made such a dramatic improvement that I finally decided to throw a horizontal beam out and align the tweeters and mid-ranges symmetrical. This made for another improvement in depth, realism, and stage height balance from left side to right side. They weren't off my much, but slight imperfections make for audible imbalances.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Our Spring GTG was going to be planned for May at Mike's place in Sandwich again. Mike agreed to host, and at that location, we did have one a great turn out. Thoughts on putting together a GTG with a "limit" of 10 attendees?


We can limit the attendance per government guidelines but I think you’ll be lucky to get three people to attend. We’ll have to see where this virus thing goes in the next few weeks before anything else can be planned. It’s got everyone in lockdown mode as you know so if the GTG is too early I think the turnout will be very low to none. I went to the boat show a few weeks ago before all this was as serious as it is now and there was like three people in that huge place full of boats. Everyone I know is either out of work, working from home, or has severely reduced hours. Boston is a desolate place during the day now and my commute went from 1.5-2 hours on Friday‘s to 45 minutes with almost no vehicles around me. My job site is shut down and I’m literally the only person on site now from ~ 45 workers. I have never seen anything like this with the lack of people out there in and around the city of Boston.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

JCsAudio said:


> We can limit the attendance per government guidelines but I think you’ll be lucky to get three people to attend. We’ll have to see where this virus thing goes in the next few weeks before anything else can be planned. It’s got everyone in lockdown mode as you know so if the GTG is too early I think the turnout will be very low to none. I went to the boat show a few weeks ago before all this was as serious as it is now and there was like three people in that huge place full of boats. Everyone I know is either out of work, working from home, or has severely reduced hours. Boston is a desolate place during the day now and my commute went from 1.5-2 hours on Friday‘s to 45 minutes with almost no vehicles around me. My job site is shut down and I’m literally the only person on site now from ~ 45 workers. I have never seen anything like this with the lack of people out there in and around the city of Boston.


Good to know. We will have to just put the GTG on hold until further notice. Hopefully things will be better by the Summer.


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Yeah Gerald, as much as I would love to come show off my new iteration and listen to your van I’ll have to pass on any gathering now even if it’s 2 of us. I’m happy that you’re experiencing audio bliss as this journey is a never ending rabbit hole and this is the way that most of us figure out the difference between equipment regardless of how they measure as that can’t tell you how the actual equipment sounds. I don’t think mine is that dialed in but it’s pretty impressive, the only minute change that really throws my system off is any 1 shift with time alignment especially with the mids and tweets but I’m getting excited to come listen to your guys offerings once this thing passes.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Mullings said:


> Yeah Gerald, as much as I would love to come show off my new iteration and listen to your van I’ll have to pass on any gathering now even if it’s 2 of us. I’m happy that you’re experiencing audio bliss as this journey is a never ending rabbit hole and this is the way that most of us figure out the difference between equipment regardless of how they measure as that can’t tell you how the actual equipment sounds. I don’t think mine is that dialed in but it’s pretty impressive, the only minute change that really throws my system off is any 1 shift with time alignment especially with the mids and tweets but I’m getting excited to come listen to your guys offerings once this thing passes.


Maybe a summer GTG if things get back to normal ( fingers crossed ). 

I'm excited to see and hear what you did in your Prius. When the time is right, it will happen. How you could top the Sinfoni speakers is beyond comprehension. 

I'm not experiencing bliss quite yet, but these new additions are putting me a step closer in the right direction. I just hope that with the system being sensitive to .1DB changes that varying atmospheric conditions don't mess with the tune and throw it off. That would put a serious wrench in the works having to fine tune due to weather changes. I hope not..........time will tell. 

Headed back to the shop to see if the dynamics are still there and to try and finish the tune. Stay healthy.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

It will pass like it has in other countries that are further along. People will not stay locked down like this forever especially once the weather breaks and gets nice plus they’ll run out of money too.

Curious to know Mullings how this has affected the shop? Hope it doesn’t slow things down for you guys. The good thing is everyone will have more time to dial things in.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Finally Achieved Sonic Bliss. The Dynamic tune was super duper too dynamic. On one song it was perfect, but when I started playing normal music it was to bass heavy and muddy.

So I started over and did a near complete re-tune. Changed crossover points, added gaps between points ( I never tuned that way before ) left the levels the same, and flattened all EQ ( except midrange which had a smooth contour with the BBC dip ) Then I played the Competition CD that we were all handed at SVR 2019 and played a bit of all the tracks. She is finally dialled-in. 

The interesting part was that the speakers are so large and the room is so small in relation that I had a ton of overlap and I was trying to EQ the overlap which never worked quite right. Adding the gaps between crossover points fixed this issue which I have been struggling with for years. 

I played some tracks via bluetooth from Tidal and I'm really happy with it. Now Rona is around, and I can't share the system with anyone. 

Mentally and physically exhausted, but I was determined to get it done. 

Still have one more change to make next week......stay tuned.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

Whatchu gonna do with the BA GT-22?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

BP1Fanatic said:


> Whatchu gonna do with the BA GT-22?


I've got several Boston Acoustics GT amps kicking around. 22s, 24s, I think a couple 28s. They are great amps. I love em. They will probably just sit on a shelf in my collection unless someone wants them, in which case, I'll let them go.


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

we have some work plus there’s other long term projects here so there’s work, there also a lot of cancellations so hopefully this thing passes quick so everything can get back to normal. Now I can’t wait to hear that thing Gerald.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

If anyone is interested here is a link to our Summer GTG for the North East region of the country. 









2020 North East Sound Quality GTG July 26


It's that time of year again for a Summer GTG July 26 in Mashpee, MA 02649 start time 11:00 A.M. Please P.M. me for Address if interested in Attending. It will be the same address in Mashpee for those of you who attended last time we had it in Mashpee. John offered to lead up a safety...




www.diymobileaudio.com


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

A lot of work has been done on the van over the last few weeks, but I just haven't been posting. Finished the sound deadening and carpet ( which took several weeks). Added a Zapco 400.2 AP to control the Acustic Elegance Sub. Got a professional tuner who set the gain structure on my amps, (which had never been done) set levels and crossover points, and modded my mid-range enclosures which made for quite an improvement in depth, and did some other tweaks and tricks to enhance performance.  He gave me a really good SQ tune which should tick all the boxes at competitions.


Gaps in the crossover regions are ok on the low end, but seem to have a negative affect on phasing everywhere else. So the crossover gaps in the mid and high transitions are eliminated except for the Sub-bass - Mid bass.


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

High Resolution Audio said:


> A lot of work has been done on the van over the last few weeks, but I just haven't been posting. Finished the sound deadening and carpet ( which took several weeks). Added a Zapco 400.2 AP to control the Acustic Elegance Sub. Got a professional tuner who set the gain structure on my amps, (which had never been done) set levels and crossover points, and modded my mid-range enclosures which made for quite an improvement in depth, and did some other tweaks and tricks to enhance performance.  He gave me a really good SQ tune which should tick all the boxes at competitions.
> 
> 
> Gaps in the crossover regions are ok on the low end, but seem to have a negative affect on phasing everywhere else. So the crossover gaps in the mid and high transitions are eliminated except for the Sub-bass - Mid bass.


Really excited to hear this iteration, this is gonna make for a very interesting finals as everyone’s skills and builds are much better than before. BTW, is it possible to bring in a judge since there’s so much competitors attending and some of us “me for sure” don’t even have a single point since the start of the season?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Mullings said:


> Really excited to hear this iteration, this is gonna make for a very interesting finals as everyone’s skills and builds are much better than before. BTW, is it possible to bring in a judge since there’s so much competitors attending and some of us “me for sure” don’t even have a single point since the start of the season?


I just reached out to Klifton, and asked him if any judges may be interested in attending.

I've never heard a Focal set up in a vehicle, so I'm very anxious to take a listen to your creation. I think you'll like this iteration, it's like it was at Finals 2018, but has further refinement.


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