# Tweeter Capacitor - calculations and questions.



## ARCuhTEK (Dec 22, 2008)

So I learn something new every day even after almost 9 years of reading on car audio subjects. Today, for some reason, tweeter capacitors caught my attention. No idea how I missed anything and everything to do with tweeter capacitors, but into the rabbit hole I go. I was highly influenced by this article by Andy W. at HAT:

To Cap or Not to Cap? Tweeters in Systems with Active Crossovers – Tech Tips – ForumsAudiofrog Â» designed in California for audiophiles everywhere

So I decided to do my own calculations, primarily based on this forum thread:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/323786-capacitor-protect-gs10-tweeter.html 
specifically post #36 by DIYMA member GEM592 where he provides a formula to be used for deriving the proper specs for determing which capacitor to install/purchase. 

His post sates the following:

_"For capacitor Farad value, you can use the formula

C=1/(2*3.14*f*R)

where f is frequency in Hertz, and R is "nominal" impedance in Ohms. A microfarad (uF) is one millionth a Farad, so multiply the above result by a million to get a uF value.

For voltage rating, I use at least

V=square root of (2*P*R)

where P is your amp rms power.

For frequency I try to go one octave below (half of) where you are crossing over before the amp (through deck or dsp or other), this frequency should be above the fs spike for the driver (again check mfr. datasheet)."

_

So here are my calculations and my questions:
_Calculations for Hybrid Audio Legatia L1 Pro tweeter:_
Fs:700Hz
Recommended min. crossover point: 2,000 Hz
(note I use 700 as the “f” in the formula even though the instructions say one half octave below the Fs. I did so because I my xo is set at 2,000 in my DSP set up). Is this the correct approach?

C=1/(2*3.14*f*R)
C=1/(2*3.14*700*4)
C=1/17,584
C=.00005687
.00005699*1,000,000 = 56.87 uF

_For Audison Lrx 300.4 amplifier:_ 65w x 4 rms
V=square root of (2*P*R)
V= sr(2*65*4)
V=sr(520)
V=22.80

Therefore the result is a capacitor similar to:
56.87 uF at 22.80 VDC

Questions:
1. On Parts Express, I found capacitors that were rated at 50 uF or 68 uF. I know NOTHING about capacitors so, do I chose the one rated lower than my result or higher?

2. I know I install this in line between the amp and the driver. But how? Meaning...
2a. Do I put it as close to the amp as possible?
2b. Do I need four (L+, L-, R+ and R-)? I suspect I just need one per driver. 

It may sound silly to the electrical gurus around here, but I honestly do not know how or where to install these capacitors. They seem like such simple things, yet, I also know if anyone can **** something up, it is me and electronics. LOL

Thank you ahead of time.
Kevin


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## ARCuhTEK (Dec 22, 2008)

PS I found these as a potential solution:
https://www.parts-express.com/68uf-100v-electrolytic-non-polarized-crossover-capacitor--027-356

and of course the expensive ones (referred to in Andy W's article as being the expensive version. He states the expensive ones are no better than the cheap ones).

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/claritycap-csa-capacitor-250vdc/claritycap-68-mfd-csa-copperconnect-poly-cap-250v/#tab-3


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## GEM592 (Jun 19, 2015)

ARCuhTEK said:


> 1. On Parts Express, I found capacitors that were rated at 50 uF or 68 uF. I know NOTHING about capacitors so, do I chose the one rated lower than my result or higher?


It probably doesn't matter much. The larger-valued one will put the corner a little lower than 700 Hz. People use even bigger values also, the idea being you guard against turn on/off pop/DC only and minimize the effect of the cap on your listening range. So the bigger one.



ARCuhTEK said:


> 2. I know I install this in line between the amp and the driver. But how? Meaning...
> 2a. Do I put it as close to the amp as possible?


I would say be consistent. Putting any passive crossover closer to the amp is probably better where possible to cut down on losses.


ARCuhTEK said:


> 2b. Do I need four (L+, L-, R+ and R-)? I suspect I just need one per driver.[/COLOR]


You just need two, one for each channel. Connect speaker + to one side of cap, and other side of cap to amplifier output +. Speaker - connected as usual (directly to amplifier output - for same channel.) Same on the other side. You can also substitute "-" for "+" above but again same way both sides is probably best. In electrical jargon, the capacitor is in series with the driver.


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

Looks good so far ARCuhTEK.

GEM592 has some good advice too.

The 68uF capacitor with 100v rating you chose from parts express (part# 027-356) seems to be just fine.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Whether one has the cross over up front, in the back or just RCAs and no crossover the noise into the RCAs will be the same. So near the amp is dandy, and if you have front and rear, the cross over front to front amp, and rear to rear amp is easier from a cabling perspective.

The 700-Hz seem a bit low. If the tweeter runs down to 1500-Hz do you care at all if you are crossing it over at 3000-Hz?
So basically bigger is never worst except for cost and weight. But we are not designing the space shuttle, so it is mostly cost and size.

The other thing potentialy lost in the equation is that 45W into the midrange is foreseeable, but there is less energy at higher frequencies, so voltage will be lower. (Headroom is still nice to have.)

It may still be reasonable to run the tweeter x-over at 2k if the goal was to ease life for the midrange, but you may likely be running it higher than 2k. So it will never see 45-W unless you are listening music that is mostly flutes and violins.

That ~60 uF will be fine, and usually the recommendation is 20-uF... 40-uF also makes sense. If you really want to run it down to 2K or are pushing the midrange power up to 200-W then you could end up really being in 60-uF territory.

Depending on the amp it is possible that there is DC protection at power up. You would need a scope to test it, or something in the documentation. Safer to use it, but not using one alleviates some sonic dramas at the possible expense of smoke dramas.

Baisically the head unit could pump out DC, but an active cross over should not, so it is whether there is an amp "thump" at power-up that is what needs to be looked at.


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## jbeez (Aug 20, 2013)

Would a ptc be more appropriate on an active setup than a capacitor?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

These are a good option, without the complex math or formulas, although if you Google tweeter cap value calculator, you will find some and simply input impedance, frequency and you get th cap value.


These may be a better option, since it takes care or filters what really matters without interfering with slopes, phase or frequencies.

https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-crossover-tweeter-protector-lamp--260-231#lblSimilarProduct


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

jbeez said:


> Would a ptc be more appropriate on an active setup than a capacitor?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


I do not think so. Either:
1) a capacitor, or
2) your amp has it built in.

I am in the same boat finding out if my amp does it for me... Otherwise I will go a 20-40 uF.


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## ARCuhTEK (Dec 22, 2008)

Thank you everyone. It seems that the 68 is fine, although there were a couple of suggestions on different products, including the tweeter crossover protection lamp, which I have not previously heard of, or read about.

Some of the above conversation starts getting into crossover talk. Fill me in here....is that essentially what these capacitors do? It is my understanding that they are not crossovers per se, but rather an electrical filter (meaning blocking energy not frequency ranges) that may potentially and erroneously enter the signal path prior to hitting the tweeter. So in other words, why do crossovers come into the discussion at all once the proper cap has been calculated for purchase? (not sure I am asking the question properly to be honest).

If you wish you can see my newly updated system diagram in my signature. The install is completed as of last weekend. It should be stated that, in my noob opinion, the system sounds great but no tuning has been done. Why is that important here? Because when the system is in idle or on pause, there is ZERO noise. Does that mean my noise floor is really zero? Likely not, but I suppose I could measure it although to my taste it is perfect so IM good to go on any whine or induced noise. Moving forward, the crossovers are set, and seemingly in a good spot for my taste although with the Helix DSP the sky is the limit with settings and control. I have high quality RCAs that are directional also. So that helps (although there was no noise with the best buy cables I was using either (same system). I cannot honestly quote off the cuff if my three amps have DC protection. I know they have fuses, and I know they are delayed at start up by the DSP design. I have never heard a start up pop in this system. I am VERY VERY careful when I exit the car to mute the volume so that upon starting it up again, there is not abrupt introduction of high volume. Above that, the DSP remote (Helix Director) has the ability to program the start up volume on the system (just in case I forget to mute at exit).

In summary, I think they system and its components are pretty darn solid. I just unearthed the tweeter cap discussion and decided they were a great idea for almost zero cost....so why not, especially given A.W.'s loud proclamation they they do not cost any quality loss.

I am going to review these suggestions on other products and make a decision...so thank you..all.




Holmz said:


> Whether one has the cross over up front, in the back or just RCAs and no crossover the noise into the RCAs will be the same. So near the amp is dandy, and if you have front and rear, the cross over front to front amp, and rear to rear amp is easier from a cabling perspective.


I have:
one amp dedicated to tweeters.
one amp dedicated to mid bass.
one amp dedicated to subwoofer.
So....adding cap to dedicated tweeter amp should be easy. If that is what you are saying...



Holmz said:


> The other thing potentially lost in the equation is that 45W into the midrange is foreseeable, but there is less energy at higher frequencies, so voltage will be lower. (Headroom is still nice to have.)
> 
> It may still be reasonable to run the tweeter x-over at 2k if the goal was to ease life for the midrange, but you may likely be running it higher than 2k. So it will never see 45-W unless you are listening music that is mostly flutes and violins.


Since both the tweeter and midbass were designed by same mfr., I have set my crossovers precisely per their recommendations for two way set up and there is no mid-range/3-way in my system. Midbass is designed at top end at 5,000 Hz. So I think it is set pretty well. I understand when you talk about the actual energy and wattage sent to the tweeters being 45w or less, even though the amp is 65 w RMS. FYI, the midbass are on bridged set up at 210 w RMS each.


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

ARCuhTEK said:


> Some of the above conversation starts getting into crossover talk. Fill me in here....is that essentially what these capacitors do? It is my understanding that they are not crossovers per se, but rather an electrical filter (meaning blocking energy not frequency ranges) that may potentially and erroneously enter the signal path prior to hitting the tweeter. So in other words, why do crossovers come into the discussion at all once the proper cap has been calculated for purchase? (not sure I am asking the question properly to be honest).


Adding a capacitor (or one of many other components) between the amplifier and the tweeter is building a crossover. The capacitor and the concept of an electrical filter and the concept of a crossover are all one and the same.



ARCuhTEK said:


> I know they have fuses, and I know they are delayed at start up by the DSP design. I have never heard a start up pop in this system. I am VERY VERY careful when I exit the car to mute the volume so that upon starting it up again, there is not abrupt introduction of high volume. Above that, the DSP remote (Helix Director) has the ability to program the start up volume on the system (just in case I forget to mute at exit).


You should not have to worry about on and off pops if your system is installed correctly. Don't bother with turning your system down to mute before you turn the car off, especially if you have a capacitor protecting each of your tweeters.




ARCuhTEK said:


> Since both the tweeter and midbass were designed by same mfr., I have set my crossovers precisely per their recommendations for two way set up and there is no mid-range/3-way in my system. Midbass is designed at top end at 5,000 Hz. So I think it is set pretty well. I understand when you talk about the actual energy and wattage sent to the tweeters being 45w or less, even though the amp is 65 w RMS. FYI, the midbass are on bridged set up at 210 w RMS each.


Don't worry about being too precise with your settings. The acoustic performance of the system is important, not the electrical performance. Since it seems like you don't have a microphone to measure the acoustic properties of your system, you can't be sure you have everything set "precisely" or not. So going off the recommended settings from the manufacturer is a good place to start, but don't feel shackled into that mindset and feel free to adjust a little bit and see how it sounds to you.

Above all else, have fun with it.


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## ARCuhTEK (Dec 22, 2008)

Jazzi said:


> Since it seems like you don't have a microphone to measure the acoustic properties of your system, you can't be sure you have everything set "precisely" or not. So going off the recommended settings from the manufacturer is a good place to start, but don't feel shackled into that mindset and feel free to adjust a little bit and see how it sounds to you.
> 
> Above all else, have fun with it.


Actually I have a Helix MTK-1 and, after many years of waiting to get this build (really) done, I had an issue with getting the mic to boot up on my laptop. That is where the build actually stands at the moment. So as soon as I get the mic working, I will take measurements, and adjust according to the RTA. I have slacked a bit in the last week or so....Im just loving finally listening to the tunes. I also need to read up a bit more on how to tune/adjust because frankly I am rather unconfident in knowing what to do with the mic results, but I will get there soon. This is my "charter" build.


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## ARCuhTEK (Dec 22, 2008)

I forgot to say...about the turn on pops. I feel pretty confident about the build but Given my nightmarish experience with the Bit One in 2009, I simply developed a habit of muting upon exiting the vehicle. So I should have been clear that it is just a habit and not a best practice per se.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

ARCuhTEK said:


> Some of the above conversation starts getting into crossover talk. Fill me in here....is that essentially what these capacitors do? It is my understanding that they are not crossovers per se, but rather an electrical filter (meaning blocking energy not frequency ranges) that may potentially and erroneously enter the signal path prior to hitting the tweeter. So in other words, why do crossovers come into the discussion at all once the proper cap has been calculated for purchase? (not sure I am asking the question properly to be honest).


You could think of a capacitor in series as being a high pass filter (probably 1-pole so 6dB/octave.). If it is wired sideways 'across the path', then it acts as energy storage (extra battery)... or as a low pass filter, where the AC gets shorted between + and -, which also acting like a battery.

On a Tweeter if you put DC 110V onto it, the capacitor would have 110V on the incoming side, then a hump of 110V shows up on the output... with it trailing off to zero over time on the output.
Wait just a minimal amount of time and the output side of the cap will be at zero.

They are there to protect from DC being presented to the tweeter, and some amps have a slight DC offset, or DC trickle.
These are always solid-state amps, and usually class-A.
Amps that use a transformer for the output cannot have a DC bias out of the amp, but can have a DC bias on the input to the transformer.




ARCuhTEK said:


> ...In summary, I think they system and its components are pretty darn solid. I just unearthed the tweeter cap discussion and decided they were a great idea for almost zero cost....so why not, especially given A.W.'s loud proclamation that they do not cost any quality loss."


AW is both right and wrong...
- I agree, and I would use caps.
- They do create a loss, in that create a phase shift which gets worse and worse below the cross over point. with bigger uF being less phase, and smaller uF being worse phase performance.
- - and I agree that it does not matter because you probably cannot hear it, or the DSP restores the phase. and that the theoretical and measurable phase is not a great concern.

You are going 3x over 20uF, so it is minimal. If it was really huge, then you still get a lot of energy effectively at DC, so you can go too big.




ARCuhTEK said:


> ... I cannot honestly quote off the cuff if my three amps have DC protection. I know they have fuses, and I know they are delayed at start up by the DSP design. I have never heard a start up pop in this system. I am VERY VERY careful when I exit the car to mute the volume so that upon starting it up again, there is not abrupt introduction of high volume. Above that, the DSP remote (Helix Director) has the ability to program the start up volume on the system (just in case I forget to mute at exit).



You only need to be concerned with the tweeter's amp, not all three.

The DSP can be somewhat ignored here... If it was an active cross over then the amp DSP be totally ignored.
The DSP can be spitting out DC, and once it hits the active cross over there is no DC there than on the Subwoofer, or low-pass side out of the cross over...
The bandpass for mid-range, and high-pass for tweeter all not have any DC.

If the cross over is set in the DSP (as part of the DSP), then it could be spitting out DC.

Secondly...
Even with the DSP unplugged from the RCAs, the amps themselves can output DC at startup and at shutdown.
Tube amps are notorious for this... Once does not want to power it off and then say, wait a minute and flick it back on... Just wait 1/2 minute and start again.

Only if you know for sure (rather than off the cuff), would you consider it. But was worth a mention.




ARCuhTEK said:


> I have:
> one amp dedicated to tweeters.
> one amp dedicated to mid bass.
> one amp dedicated to subwoofer.
> So....adding cap to dedicated tweeter amp should be easy. If that is what you are saying...


Yes - but...

Is there a specific, and seperate, "Active" cross over, or does it reside in the DSP?
Only the former, AND if the amp is "certified" as having no DC bias, would I then choose to omit the capacitor.
So I would suggest it should be used. And going to 68uF is only bad as they are bigger, but better sonically... So you cannot go too wrong here.




ARCuhTEK said:


> Since both the tweeter and midbass were designed by same mfr., I have set my crossovers precisely per their recommendations for two way set up and there is no mid-range/3-way in my system. Midbass is designed at top end at 5,000 Hz. So I think it is set pretty well. I understand when you talk about the actual energy and wattage sent to the tweeters being 45w or less, even though the amp is 65 w RMS. FYI, the midbass are on bridged set up at 210 w RMS each.


I am saying that a 65W amp is capable of a peak RMS values of 65W.
When there is some signal in there it has an amplitude (voltage), which is precisely calculable for a 65W RMS amplifier.

Will you use 65W?
Depends on you SPL, AND the music.
I doubt it, as 100W into a 3-way is pretty loud, and that is ˜15W into a tweeter.
But 3x more power/volume is only ˜4dB, so maybe you can use it all.

Playing folk music, or spoken word, there will be almost no Watts sent to the tweeter, and unless it is the Lion King audio book, very litter subwoofer watts would be needed. All this while the midrange would be using a full 65W, except when they stop to inhale.

If the mid-bass is 210W, then the question is... Are using all that? or are you using 10-20W but have a lot of headroom.
If you are using all of that for the occasional loud part of the music, then the tweeter using about 1/3 of that seems like is close to ideal.

(And it is a worse life for a tweeter clipping in 2-way system a passive crossover, in which case the power from a 210W into a passive could be 100W in clipping to the tweeter and in an active you will never have more than 65W.)

Does mid-base go from 1000-5000 Hz?, and then the tweeter from 5000-Hz onwards?

Or the short answer is get the 68 uF, it seems sensible.


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## ARCuhTEK (Dec 22, 2008)

WOW...you took a great deal of time to address this post.
I appreciate that and your time.



Holmz said:


> AW is both right and wrong...
> - I agree, and I would use caps.
> - They do create a loss, in that create a phase shift which gets worse and worse below the cross over point. with bigger uF being less phase, and smaller uF being worse phase performance.
> - - and I agree that it does not matter because you probably cannot hear it, or the DSP restores the phase. and that the theoretical and measurable phase is not a great concern.


I probably should refrain from making any comment about what other people state, outside of actually quoting them verbatim. I do think AW made mention of the quality loss to some degree, similar to your comments, but I absorbed his comments to essentially mean the loss was negligible.



Holmz said:


> Yes - but...
> 
> Is there a specific, and separate, "Active" cross over, or does it reside in the DSP?
> Only the former, AND if the amp is "certified" as having no DC bias, would I then choose to omit the capacitor.
> So I would suggest it should be used. And going to 68uF is only bad as they are bigger, but better sonically... So you cannot go too wrong here.


The tweeter amp (Audison Lrx 300.4) does also have crossovers on board. I can absolutely confirm that the belly of the amp has a sliding switch that disables the crossovers and I can confirm mine are disabled. So, the only crossovers assisting or in line with the tweeters right now reside in the DSP. Even more reason to install the cap.....



Holmz said:


> Does mid-base go from 1000-5000 Hz?, and then the tweeter from 5000-Hz onwards?
> 
> Or the short answer is get the 68 uF, it seems sensible.


Midbass is set from 75Hz to 3400 Hz
Tweeter is set from 2000 Hz to infinity.

Agree on the 68uF. 

Thank you again for your help. I really appreciate it.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

ARCuhTEK said:


> I probably should refrain from making any comment about what other people state, outside of actually quoting them verbatim. I do think AW made mention of the quality loss to some degree, similar to your comments, but I absorbed his comments to essentially mean the loss was negligible.


I do not know the fellow, and I not having a go at him.
But I would argue that it is probably good to quote people... Then we know what you took away, and that person has feedback as to whether their message was heard correctly.

So pedantically I am saying that there is a measurable loss (change)... and then I agree with what you 'took away', in that it does not matter.




ARCuhTEK said:


> Midbass is set from 75Hz to 3400 Hz
> Tweeter is set from 2000 Hz to infinity.


Does that not create a hump in the 2000-3400 range?
I am imagining the SPL plot versus frequency would look like a "side view sketch" of a snake that ate a rabbit about a week ago?


This thread has been useful for me, and I am ordering some caps too.


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## ARCuhTEK (Dec 22, 2008)

I just finished the install and have not yet done the mic measurements. But I will post them here when I do. 

As for not knowing AW...well Andy is pretty well known in car audio and in my first post, I do link the reader to the article AW wrote. I fully realize you were not at odds with his opinion, but rather just offering your own. No issue at all.

So .....do I literally just insert one end of the cap into the amp's output terminal? It is amazing to me that we spend all this time calculating wire size but the actual wire that (of the cap) that gets inserted into the output terminal is (seemingly) 1/10 the diameter of the speaker wire gauge.... It just seems so ....tiny (wire, not the cap).


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

ARCuhTEK said:


> WOW...you took a great deal of time to address this post.
> I appreciate that and your time.


You could hit the Thanks button... 


In theory it can go inline on either the "+ wire" or the "- wire" side.
And close to the amp, close to the speaker, or in the middle (like the snake)...

Personally...
1) I would put it on the "+ wire" side (just like everyone else does)
2) Would run a parallel "- wire along side of it.
3) I would put a polarised connector on the end(s). (I am thinking the yellow ones... But I am not sure of the brand...)

Then you could even replace it if need be.
Or easily change out one of the 68uF units, with a similarly wired unit using a 20uF capacitor and see if if any difference is noted.

Of course twisted wire and crimped connections could make it be more "solid". But I would still go the polarised connector myself. (It depends on your install and how hard it is to get to... and your preference).


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## ARCuhTEK (Dec 22, 2008)

Holmz said:


> You could hit the Thanks button...
> 
> 
> In theory it can go inline on either the "+ wire" or the "- wire" side.
> ...


I hit the THANKS button 59 minutes ago... 

"Would run a parallel "- wire along side of it.".... Okay...I am just totally spacing here or something... I cannot picture what you mean. I thought you put one end of the cap into the amp output terminal (lets say "+" side) and then solder on speaker wire to the other end of the cap and then the speaker wire travels to the tweeter. Like I said in the OP....I have no idea what I am doing with these things.... 

My amps are very easy to get to....


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

ARCuhTEK said:


> I
> My amps are very easy to get to....


Ergo: Put them nearer the amp then.


Here is "sketch"...

Connector: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rM5F4Fi-40I


*Long side all the way to the amp
*
S
P
E "+" ---------- wire -------- <one side of the connector
A {
K "-" ---------- wire -------- <Other side of the connector
E
R

*Short side:*

A "+" ----wire----- <cap> ---- wire ---- <one side of the connector
M {
P "-" --------------- wire -------------- <Other side of the connector


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## ARCuhTEK (Dec 22, 2008)

I am familiar with the quick connectors...it is just the "wire----- <cap> ---- wire " that I have never done and even though it sounds like I am "making a mountain out of a mole hill" I just am not sure how to connect the cap to the wire. Do I just cut the speaker wire and slide the thin cap wire down into the sheathing and attempt to solder it? (repeat on other side of the cap)?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

ARCuhTEK said:


> I am familiar with the quick connectors...it is just the "wire----- <cap> ---- wire " that I have never done and even though it sounds like I am "making a mountain out of a mole hill" I just am not sure how to connect the cap to the wire. Do I just cut the speaker wire and slide the thin cap wire down into the sheathing and attempt to solder it? (repeat on other side of the cap)?


You need to connect it somehow...
So remove an inch of the sheathing, twist the wires together, solder, and then heat shrink. to provide some sheathing
The solder just fills the gaps the twisting should be well done first.

I would put more heat shrink over both the red and black for extra protection before soldering on the connectors... And probably clear heat shrink over the top makes sense here.

The only thing being added here is the connector, and then that whole assembly just goes that down near the amp where you can get to it.


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## ARCuhTEK (Dec 22, 2008)

Holmz said:


> You need to connect it somehow...
> So remove an inch of the sheathing, twist the wires together, solder, and then heat shrink. to provide some sheathing
> The solder just fills the gaps the twisting should be well done first.
> 
> ...


Okay this makes sense. Thank you again.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

By the way my Dad lives in the Pisgah/Brevard area.


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## ARCuhTEK (Dec 22, 2008)

Holmz said:


> By the way my Dad lives in the Pisgah/Brevard area.


Wow.... our area is a beautiful area.... 15 minutes from me.


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