# Need some help with a house system...



## Unrthdxdream (Jun 24, 2007)

So, our fraternity is getting a new house built this year and an older alum that passed away recently was apparently really big into audio. In his memory his family is donating $3000 to put an audio system in our new house! And I being the only guy in the house that has an interest in audio got assigned to plan out what to do with the 3 grand lol. So since we are in the construction phase still and the drywall isn't up yet we are having speaker wires ran now. The current plan for pre-wiring locations is as follows:

- Back patio – 4 speakers
- Dining room – 4 speakers, two on the fire place wall and two more on the opposite wall 
- Recreation room – 4 or 6 speakers in the ceiling (can't remember the exact number)
- Front balcony – 2 speakers in the ceiling of the balcony roof as you walk out the doors onto the balcony 
- Back patio place speaker jacks each side of the dining room door at the fixed window locations
- Dining room I think we are putting two speaker jacks in this space too.
- Wires will be run to:
o Back patio and dining room wiring would be run into the lounge
o Recreation room and balcony wiring would be run into the recreation room and/or lounge. Can't exactly remember which.

So basically we are going to need 6 outdoor speakers. 2 of which are going to be in ceiling and pretty well protected from the elements but 4 are going to be on an outer wall from my understanding... mounted to brick I think? Then we will also be needing 4 in wall speakers for the dining room and probably 4 speakers for the ceiling in the rec room. 

What would you guys recommend for the speakers? I was probably just going to get as many 8in Dayton in wall/in ceiling 2 way speakers as I can. Don't really know how to drive them.. a few rack amps? Or 2 receivers, one for each place the wiring is run so each receiver only has to power 2 rooms..? The only source we are going to wanna use is an ipod or computer more than likely. Not entirely sure what the contractors plans are as far as mounting the speaker jacks around the rear patio really.. for removable speakers I guess. 

Oh well this is pretty early on, plenty of time to decide, let me know what you guys would do!

Thanks,

Walker


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

Sounds like you need to look at some home automation companies, but $3k can stretch thin when you are talking an amp that will properly run that load. In theory a receiver and a big speaker selector COULD run all of this, but I wouldn't suggest it. 

What you really should get is a multi-zone amp with multiple channels. Here are a few companies that specialize in this sort of deal. 

Speakercraft
Russound
Elan
Niles

Systems from these companies will properly power 10-12+ channels without overloading the amp, can run multiple sources, and can connect to keypads that do volume and source in a given room. You can usually double the channels as they are low impedance stable amps in most cases. (They are designed to run 2 speakers per channel if needed.)

When running an entire house system the amp/control becomes much more important than the speakers. A home theater system would be the other way around, speakers being more important than the power. The reason for this is home amps/receivers are not designed to run multiple drivers at low impedance for long durations, if at all.

This kit would be a good starting point. If you get 8ohm home speakers, most don't have an issue running at 4ohm. At that point this would give you full control over 16 channels, and up to 4 zones of operation. (4 areas in the house can be listening to different sources simultaneously. 

http://www.nilesaudio.com/product.p...=Multizone Products&catcdID=2&prdcdID=FG01431

That system runs about $1500, and would allow your other half towards speakers, wiring and a source unit or two. (CD player, iPod dock, TV box for broadcasting audio from a game throughout the house.) The unit already has an AM/FM tuner that can run to all channels if needed.

For the outdoor speakers, get real outdoor units that will hold up. As far as the rest in-ceiling or in-walls will be fine. Make sure they can hold up at 4ohm or get a 4 ohm speaker if you want to stretch that 8 channels to a full 16.
All of the companies I have listed have similar systems, and even can get more advanced. They also all sell speakers that are designed specifically for what you are doing. That Niles system is just a good kit that has pretty much everything you need to get started. That's why I like it.

I suggest finding some local retailers of these products (not big box stores) and speaking with a sales person who has in depth knowledge to get you exactly what you need, as these can be complicated systems.


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## Spasticteapot (Mar 5, 2007)

I'm no expert, but I think I may be of some help.

I've seen three approaches to this: The brute force method, the commercial method, and the high-end method.

The brute force approach is the simplest, and as often as not, the cheapest. All that is required is a truly massive pro-grade power amplifier (Tapco, Crown, or the like) capable of driving a 2-ohm load, to which you may wire four pairs of 8-ohm speakers in parallel. To control the volume, all you need is a big potentiometer wired between the speakers and the amp that bleeds off the extra power to that particular pair of speakers - these can be bought for as little as $10.

The problem with this approach is that the amplifier will be working under full load continuously - not a desirable situation. Furthermore, speaker impeadance varies by frequency, and overloading an amplifier is a definite possibility. 

The commercial approach is to use a a "70v" system, which uses a step-up transformer at the amplifier and smaller step-down transformers at each speaker. This system work similarly to the one above, but has a major advantage: Speaker impeadance can be whatever you want it to be, allowing any number of speakers to be connected to any amplifier (although you're still limited by total wattage). Furthermore, the higher voltage means less current, which in turn means you lose less through the speaker wiring's resistance.

Volume control on a 75v system can be done by either potentiometers or variable transformers that will reduce the voltage going to any given speaker(s), reducing volume with a minimum of wasted power. These place less demand on an amplifier, reducing power consumption and increasing reliability.

There are, however, two major downsides to a 70v system: Cost and performance. High-quality audio transformers are very expensive - equpping them to a large power amp can cost hundreds, and a transformer is needed for each speaker. Furthermore, all but the best transformers cause a major degredation in quality - most 70v systems are low-fi, like the paging systems in supermarkets, though there are exceptions.

The last approach is to purchase a complete audio system. Using an amplifier with twelve or more separate channels of amplification, equalization and volume can be adjusted for each speaker in each room. A specialized pre-amp can be connected to numerous keypads and IR remote sensors allowing control of all or part of the system from any room.

The downside with this approach is price and complexity: The amplification alone can cost thousands, and you'll definitely need professional help to set it up properly (unless you're a frat full of electrical engineers, in which case you're set.)

There is also a fourth option for the especially mad: DIY.
Instead of using centralized amplification, you could put an amplifier in each room, with its inputs coming from a single pre-amp (and hence radio, CD player, etc.) in one room of the house. Running the signal through a generic volume-control stereo pot would allow you to put a volume control in each room at the cost of a few dollars. 

For the speakers themselves, I would use inexpensive 5 1/4" Pyle Pro speakers for the outdoors - they're not too bad, cheap, locally availible through Circuit City, and waterproof. Inside, I would reccomend listening to speakers before you buy them - many in-wall speakers will not provide the volume and bass the average frat boy demands. 

If you've got room for them, DIY speakers using high-efficiency pro audio drivers would be optimal. If you have a "party room", I would reccomend buying some used PA speakers (Guitar Center sells them with warranties) - you'll end up breaking anything else.

For amplification, the Tapco J800 is the way to go. At $230, it's quite cheap for a pro-grade power amp; it's made by Mackie, so it's of good quality; the distortion is low, and it will produce an impressive four hundred watts per channel into two ohms.


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## cheesehead (Mar 20, 2007)

Off topic here.............:blush:

What Fraternity are you a member of?

Sigma Alpha Epsilon - Ferris State University 88' here!


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## Unrthdxdream (Jun 24, 2007)

Hahah we have SAE on campus here but I'm in the Beta Phi chapter of Beta Theta Pi! 

A local alumni and I teamed up to tackle this project since we are both into audio. He got his basement turned into a pretty sweet home theater room by this guy http://www.8250theaterworks.com/. He is going to meet us up at the construction site tomorrow to go over wiring and he is going to do it now instead of the contractor. Should make for some much higher quality cable being run and probably alot neater. 

Don't really know a few of the brands he carries under his product lists.. Going to also check out another shop around town and maybe try and look at that niles audio amp/splitter that was posted a few posts up. So far that is what I think meets our needs best.


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## cheesehead (Mar 20, 2007)

Unrthdxdream said:


> Hahah we have SAE on campus here but I'm in the Beta Phi chapter of Beta Theta Pi!
> 
> A local alumni and I teamed up to tackle this project since we are both into audio. He got his basement turned into a pretty sweet home theater room by this guy http://www.8250theaterworks.com/. He is going to meet us up at the construction site tomorrow to go over wiring and he is going to do it now instead of the contractor. Should make for some much higher quality cable being run and probably alot neater.
> 
> Don't really know a few of the brands he carries under his product lists.. Going to also check out another shop around town and maybe try and look at that niles audio amp/splitter that was posted a few posts up. So far that is what I think meets our needs best.


I know how the competition between fraternities goes. How does the local SAE chapter rate on campus?
Sorry for the off topic ?'s:blush:

It's always a good thing to get the alumni involved. They are usually willing to help in more ways than just financial!


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## Unrthdxdream (Jun 24, 2007)

Well times are pretty tough on our campus right now.. SAE has alot of parties but are doing better than most. Sig Ep just got kicked off campus for a year.. Kappa Sig isn't going to be able to rush this fall.. The school is being pretty anti greek lately..


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## cheesehead (Mar 20, 2007)

Unrthdxdream said:


> Well times are pretty tough on our campus right now.. SAE has alot of parties but are doing better than most. Sig Ep just got kicked off campus for a year.. Kappa Sig isn't going to be able to rush this fall.. The school is being pretty anti greek lately..


Unfortunately that is happening a crossed the country. We had the same issues back in the 80's when I was in school.

Glad to hear the local SAE's are doing well. I hope it continues!

Good Luck with the house. That's gotta be fun building a house that others will be able to enjoy in the future.


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## coke (May 6, 2008)

Check out Dayton speakers at partsexpress

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&CAT_ID=43&ObjectGroup_ID=379


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## bmaupin (Feb 22, 2006)

Here's the in-wall selection...

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&CAT_ID=43&ObjectGroup_ID=762


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## Unrthdxdream (Jun 24, 2007)

As far as inwalls and ovehead speakers I think we should go for the 8in speakers just because most guys in the house are going to want to hear some good bass. I assume the dayton in walls and in ceilings will be able to cover this... Hopefully we will get one 10in sub in the ceiling which would be sweet in my opinion..


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## coke (May 6, 2008)

Unrthdxdream said:


> As far as inwalls and ovehead speakers I think we should go for the 8in speakers just because most guys in the house are going to want to hear some good bass. I assume the dayton in walls and in ceilings will be able to cover this... Hopefully we will get one 10in sub in the ceiling which would be sweet in my opinion..


if you have an attic, you could use multiple 15s


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## Unrthdxdream (Jun 24, 2007)

Well there will be no attic over the dining room/ living room space we are talking about installing the speakers... I think an 10 would be good enough for the space we are going to have...


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