# need a HIgh-end DSP with center channel processing



## stickpony (Nov 8, 2010)

I was looking at the JBL MS-8, because it has built in Logic 7 processing to derive 'center' channel information from a stereo signal to make a true center channel, not just a summed mono signal. However, too many of the other features of the unit indicate it isn't as high tech as i need it to be. I was looking at the Audison Bit one, but i cannot seem to find any info whether or not it has a center channel processor built in that will derive the correct center channel information.

anybody have any suggestions? the most important features to me: center channel processing, 30+ bands of EQ, time alignment, auto-tuning and auto time allign with fine-tuning capability, digital input( optical and/or coaxial ).

and not that it matters, i have a Clarion HX-D1 head unit, the American version(not Addzest), and i will most likely be modifying it and adding a digital output.



I would love to hear everybody's opinion on here, as long as it doesn't have to do with ditching the center channel idea


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Alpine h800


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## stickpony (Nov 8, 2010)

BigRed said:


> Alpine h800


i looked into this unit briefly just now. from the literature on the website:

"5.1-channel surround sound: Decodes the Dolby® Digital and DTS® Surround formats when you set up a mobile movie theater in your ride. The PX-H800 can also decode Dolby Pro Logic II recordings, so you can enjoy surround sound from a stereo movie audio track.
Bi-Phantom: Uses your front left and right speakers to create a virtual center channel, which enhances vocal quality in a 5:1 surround system."


so it seemingly creates a "phantom" center channel when no center channel speaker exists in yrou system, if i am reading that correctly. and it also decodes old dolby pro logic 2 signals and creates a center channel. 

But, it doesn't specifically state that it creates a center channel output from a simple stereo signal....

Does anybody have experience using this Alpine unit and know whether or not it will take a regular stereo signal from a CD source and create a derived center channel signal from it?


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## Ryanu (Dec 1, 2012)

If u were to use ms8... There is no need to mod for digital out since ms8 doesn't have any digital in... I personally own ms8... It's a good piece of equipment... Designed to be set and go equipment. If u like more flexibility in terms of tuning crossover and TA manually, ms8 may not be your kind of thing. Just my 2 cents. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

Alpine h800 is my vote.


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## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

Good Night Bump!!!


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

Huckleberry Sound said:


> Good Night Bump!!!


fail:laugh:


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## stickpony (Nov 8, 2010)

Ryanu said:


> If u were to use ms8... There is no need to mod for digital out since ms8 doesn't have any digital in... I personally own ms8... It's a good piece of equipment... Designed to be set and go equipment. If u like more flexibility in terms of tuning crossover and TA manually, ms8 may not be your kind of thing. Just my 2 cents.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


i demo'd the MS-8 locally within the last coupe of days. its very impressive, but the clarity isn't as good as i would have hoped. the clarity of my head unit going direct to the amps was better. i will look to see if a local shop has an alpine H800 i can demo..

but in the mean time, if anyone else knows of a high end DSP that does a center channel the correct way, that would be awesome


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## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

I think that the 3Sixty.3 does.


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## stickpony (Nov 8, 2010)

wdemetrius1 said:


> I think that the 3Sixty.3 does.


from what i can tell, just read the online manual.. it does not


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

If you play any two channel stereo recording through a Dolby Pro logic decoder it will generate a center as well as rear channel information. It does not have to be Dolby Pro logic encoded.
So the Alpine processor would do what you want. It will also decode discrete 5.1 program via Dolby Digital and DTS decoders. The best of both worlds!


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

garysummers said:


> If you play any two channel stereo recording through a Dolby Pro logic decoder it will generate a center as well as rear channel information. It does not have to be Dolby Pro logic encoded.
> So the Alpine processor would do what you want. It will also decode discrete 5.1 program via Dolby Digital and DTS decoders. The best of both worlds!


That is my understanding as well...I WANT one.


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## stickpony (Nov 8, 2010)

i may have to try an H800 out then


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

The H800 and MS8 are the main options for center channel 'steering'.


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## yogegoy (Feb 11, 2011)




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## stickpony (Nov 8, 2010)

Bluenote said:


> The H800 and MS8 are the main options for center channel 'steering'.



and which do you think is better at it? The H800 uses Dolby Prologic from dolby labs, and the MS-8 uses Logic 7 from Harmon Kardon...


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

stickpony said:


> and which do you think is better at it? The H800 uses Dolby Prologic from dolby labs, and the MS-8 uses Logic 7 from Harmon Kardon...



I've personally used both, and it's gonna depend more so on your tuning abilities and how much you intend to tweak the tune. The MS-8's autotune IMHO cannot be beat and is far superior than Imprint or anything else out there. The drawback is after that, you have a 31-band EQ common to all drivers to tweak...better than nothing, but not as flexible as the H800. The flip side is the H800 has a bit different philosophy. It has Imprint, which is not as good as the MS-8 autotune, but you could skip that all together and the manual tune potential on the H800 is far more capable than the MS-8. So the potential for getting something really good is going to be more feasible with tools that give you more flexibility, and with the H800 vs. MS-8, the H800 is definitely more flexible.


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

^This...


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## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

I agree with Richard.


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## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

H800 is my vote!


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

Agreed I own a ms-8 right now.. If you have no idea how to tune, it'll do a better job than many will do without some good amount of research and practice. If you know how to tune though the h800 seems like the better option.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

If you were going really high end, find a pair of the Alpine PXA H990s and the last F#1 deck.

Otherwise the H800 is about all there is.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> If you were going really high end, find a pair of the Alpine PXA H990s and the last F#1 deck.
> 
> Otherwise the H800 is about all there is.


A pair, OUCH, my wallet hurts even hearing that outloud.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Only 6 channels each.

One would work if you had passives between every speaker.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Can the OP define what he means by 'high end dsp'? What's high end what's low end?


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## Ryanu (Dec 1, 2012)

stickpony said:


> i demo'd the MS-8 locally within the last coupe of days. its very impressive, but the clarity isn't as good as i would have hoped. the clarity of my head unit going direct to the amps was better. i will look to see if a local shop has an alpine H800 i can demo..
> 
> but in the mean time, if anyone else knows of a high end DSP that does a center channel the correct way, that would be awesome


Did u level matched all drivers prior to calibration? crossover set accordingly?


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

I find it interesting that so many people seem not to understand that the autotune in MS-8 matches the channels, so the 31-band EQ doesn't have to. There's no need for separate 31-band EQs unless you think that UNMATCHING the left and right acoustic response is the right way to tune.

Sometimes when you make things too straightforward, the enthusiasts recoil at the lack of complexity.


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## Zippy (Jul 21, 2013)

wdemetrius1 said:


> I think that the 3Sixty.3 does.





stickpony said:


> from what i can tell, just read the online manual.. it does not


Owning a 360.3, I can tell you that there are settings for center channel in the software. If it's using a Dolby standard or not to get it, I do not know. Call Rockford Fosgate and ask to be certain.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I know they mentioned it at one point, but never saw anything about it since.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I find it interesting that so many people seem not to understand that the autotune in MS-8 matches the channels, so the 31-band EQ doesn't have to. There's no need for separate 31-band EQs unless you think that UNMATCHING the left and right acoustic response is the right way to tune.
> 
> Sometimes when you make things too straightforward, the enthusiasts recoil at the lack of complexity.


I think the MS-8 is great product for 95% of the people out there. Folks who have a stock setup or an after market amp / speaker setup with limited or no dsp and tuning desire. You select xover and slopes, do the auto tune and then use the 31 band L/R eq to tweak the response. I would recommend at least 50-100 hours on the eq after the auto tune. At the end the sound is *much* better with the MS-8 than no dsp, sure. 

However, for those conversant with tuning, the flexibility and resolution *that one controls * on the fully manual dsp's will let you get further over time than the MS-8. Some limitations on the MS-8:

1. No control over timing. Timing is about both arrival times, first from each driver then from sets of drivers. In very small increments it can solve some response issues. I know the MS-8 algorithm takes both into account, but this is one flexibility where an experienced tuner would do better manually for the given environment. Control over time is critical. The higher the resolution on your TA, the better.

2. Xover. With the MS-8 every time you change the xover points it re-tunes the whole response. The 50 hours I spent tweaking the eq with xover at 4khz are down the drain, now at 3khz I have to start all over again. Changing the xover point will change your response yes, but largely only in the xover zone. On 4th order slopes we're talking half an octave above and below the xover point. Use your eq here. Changing xovers w/o a complete re-tune is way more convenient. Independent driver eq *specially in the xover zone* helps in setting the best transition between drivers(acoustic slope) for the given environment, install etc. 

3. While the Auto tune on MS-8 is at a much higher resolution than any manual processor, but you can't manually tweak at this resolution post the auto tune. The house curve that the MS-8 tunes to is definitely the best auto tune out there. BUT it is still not the ideal curve and just a simple 31 band L/R eq after the auto tune is not enough. Even on the eq, a resolution of +/- 0.2-3 db is *very* different from +/- 1db. Ms-8 allows you to plot out your desired curve and it implements it. But tuning is about working one frequency at a time and hearing the effect then going on the next and so on.

Dialing in the best response for the given environment with complete flexibility on how you get there is vital to customizing good sound in a car, imho. For the majority, the MS-8 with some work on the eq is quite adequate. However for an OCD tweaker like me, the MS-8 is limiting.


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## stickpony (Nov 8, 2010)

sqnut said:


> Can the OP define what he means by 'high end dsp'? What's high end what's low end?


 the highest fidelity out there, and something that is pre-amp only. no power amp built-in.


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## stickpony (Nov 8, 2010)

sqnut said:


> I think the MS-8 is great product for 95% of the people out there. Folks who have a stock setup or an after market amp / speaker setup with limited or no dsp and tuning desire. The MS-8 is great at getting decent sound at ear level. You then have a 31 band L/R eq to tweak if you want. The sound is much better with the MS-8 than no dsp, sure.
> 
> However for those conversant with tuning, the flexibility and resolution *that one controls * on the fully manual dsp's will let you get further over time than the MS-8. Some limitations on the MS-8:
> 
> ...


cool, thanks for the analysis, this helps quite a bit


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## stickpony (Nov 8, 2010)

Zippy said:


> Owning a 360.3, I can tell you that there are settings for center channel in the software. If it's using a Dolby standard or not to get it, I do not know. Call Rockford Fosgate and ask to be certain.


 i did call on friday, but nobody was available who had the information i was looking for. Additionally, their website isn't too forthcoming....i found a torrent of the .pdf, but it just showed there's a center channel settings, but it appeared to be simply summing the left and right to get a mono signal.. there was no mention of Dolby or Logic 7


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## jnchantler (Apr 11, 2012)

I've so far been throughout the DEH80 head unit, 360.3 and MS8, I just installed an H800 in my car last week and so far, for my purposes, it's the best of the lot. pRS80 would be second but it only has 6 channels.

I went from the Pioneer DEH80 PRS to the 360.3 as I was going from a 2way to a 3way set up in the front and needed the extra channels.

I had issues with the 360.3 such as noise floor problems, turn on pop and it took about 2 hours to get it connected to my laptop the first time which was software problems on the unit end. Sound wise I thought it was quite a step down from the DEH80 PRS and I ended up going back to it temporarily and just running a 2way front plus sub for a while.

I then changed to the MS8. I thought the auto tune was comparable to the Pioneer but the lack of tuning options afterwards was what made me sell it. I did not have noise floor problems or turn on pop with the MS8 though.

Lastly I changed to the h800 with the RUX controller. I tried the auto EQ and auto TCR, both of which we're complete crap and sounded worse than before I ran it. I turned the auto eq off and dialed in the time alignment a little better. Within an hour I had it sounding better than any of the previous 3 set ups. I love the RUX controller, although a little cumbersome at first, the ability to tune on the fly without pulling a laptop out is invaluable to me. If this is going to be any sort of a show build, the H800 is also the best looking of all the units with a brushed metal casing. The H800 will also run a real center channel with the DD processing. I'm not certain on how you get the 5.1 signal to the unit, but that's a separate matter (I know that toslink is a bit of an outdated system and will not carry all decodings).

So in short, if I had to choose between the DEH 80PRS, the 360.3, MS8 and the h800 I would pick the H800 any day of the week. Just make sure you either have an ainet capable Alpine head unit, or you get the RUX controller, otherwise you will not be able to turn it on!!!


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## stickpony (Nov 8, 2010)

jnchantler said:


> I've so far been throughout the DEH80 head unit, 360.3 and MS8, I just installed an H800 in my car last week and so far, for my purposes, it's the best of the lot. pRS80 would be second but it only has 6 channels.
> 
> I went from the Pioneer DEH80 PRS to the 360.3 as I was going from a 2way to a 3way set up in the front and needed the extra channels.
> 
> ...


this is helpful as well. thank you for the analysis.


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## Ted J (Aug 15, 2006)

stickpony said:


> But, it doesn't specifically state that it creates a center channel output from a simple stereo signal....
> 
> Does anybody have experience using this Alpine unit and know whether or not it will take a regular stereo signal from a CD source and create a derived center channel signal from it?


Sorry to sorta bring this back from the dead but this thread is going over the exact subject matter and has people responding to it that know about what is being spoke of already. Does anybody have any info on how the H800 processes the center from a regular stereo? I ask this for I never understood why most center channel processing didn't work so well when I tested it and how it narrowed the stage and made it mostly a 'center channel heavy' if that makes sense but then I saw Andy's response in another thread and it explained a lot of what I think I was experiencing:



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, the center image is something to get used to, especially if you're used to listening to simple stereo. The real benefit of a center channel and signal steering in cars is that the center image isn't created by the sum of the left and right speakers as it is in simple stereo. Information that's common to both left and right is sent to the center and atenuated by 6dB in the left and right. The difference between this arrangement and the common L+R (mono center) is that configuration narrows the stage by design. With Logic7, Left is still left and right is still right. If the center is too dominant, try turning the center channel level control down a bit.


Took that quote from this thread: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...sion/125925-jbl-ms8-center-channel-worth.html

I'm wondering if on a regular stereo signal will the H800 atenuate the L and R by 6 db to process the center channel or if it will leave the L and R alone like that of the Logic7.

I know years ago I listed to a P9 combo with a center channel and it also seemed to process the center channel well for a SQ car on a regular stereo signal also. Or maybe the person did a great job of turning the car as well though. But he turned the center off and on to show me how it sounded. The center channel speaker was a higher end speaker like his L and R speakers were but funny enough it was a different brand driver. It had a different timbre of sound to it but it sorta helped the center 'stick' out more if that makes sense. I didn't notice the timbre difference until he turned the center off and on for otherwise it blended in nicely.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The H800 uses Pro Logic 2, I don't know the specifics on how it does center processing and attenuation of the fronts...but I am sure it's out on the web somewhere.


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## Ted J (Aug 15, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> The H800 uses Pro Logic 2, I don't know the specifics on how it does center processing and attenuation of the fronts...but I am sure it's out on the web somewhere.


Thanks for the info! After more looking around I found:



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Logic7 and Dolby PL2 are similar in the way they steer front and rear signals. PL2 is a 5.1 algorithm and L7 is up to 7.1. L7 does a better job of resolving left and right side and rear than PL2 does (in my opinion) and I've tuned MS-8's L7 to be more appropriate for a car. Center signal is -6dB in right and left and sides and rears are delayed 8 and 12mS, respectively. I don't know what those settings are for PL2. The differences are audible, but subtle.


Found this in: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...155823-ms8-vs-pxa-h800-center-processing.html


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## stickpony (Nov 8, 2010)

Awesome Ted, thanks for the links!


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

Agreed here too... The H800 is more capable


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

stickpony said:


> and which do you think is better at it? The H800 uses Dolby Prologic from dolby labs, and the MS-8 uses Logic 7 from Harmon Kardon...



The one with less known hiss.

From my readings , I found that the most issue with DSP's are the noise they introduce.


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## Ted J (Aug 15, 2006)

stickpony said:


> Awesome Ted, thanks for the links!


You are welcome.

As a FYI to people, after some testing I found the Dolby Pro Logic II center channel processing on the H800 to not work that well for 2 channel material. I liked how the center channel width is adjustable and the center channel filled in nicely. What I found to happen is the L and R channels lost some of their life for you could tell they were being processed. Even when I set the center to be all the way wide, setting 7, the L and R channels had a processed compressed just a little sound to them. Since the center channel would be A LOT work to do in my car I decided to not do it and stick with good old 2 channel L and R stereo.

I was doing the test unpluging the center channel and then turning Dolby Pro Logic II off and on and other variations for I really wanted to give a center channel a try. I heard a P9 combo processor with a center channel that I liked years ago and wanted to give it a try but it just doesn't seem to be in the cards for me.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

The ms8 does do a really good job at auto tune and actually getting signal delays done right , but the user can't fine tune any of the good stuff , if you are strictly going to use auto tune and will never do any of your own signal delays I would go for the MS8 but honestly, you will want to have the controls, the alpine h990really sounds like the one your after . And of all the things on a system you don't want to skimp out on power and DSP power , everything else you can get to sound good no matter what else you go with to a certian extent , you could go kinda basic on speakers , even a low bit deck but if you don't have good processing and lots of power you won't ever get it the way you want it , and with cheap speakers and lots of power and a good processing you can make it sound as good in most cases as expensive speakers . White extra emphasis on "in most cases" not all !


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

There is a big misunderstanding about the "common 31-band EQ" in MS-8. The reason for separate left and right EQs is to MATCH the left and right channels. The Auto EQ does that first. Since the channels are matched in the auto calibration, the 31-band EQ can be used to change the target curve. 

With regard to the center channel, any processor that includes dolby PL2, Logic 7 or the DTS upmixer creates a center channel from a 2-channel signal. No encoding necessary. The logic 7 in MS-8 is designed specifically for car audio. The others are not. The big differences are that Logic-7 maintains left and right separation in the side and rear speakers and the level of mono information included in left and right front is adjusted for cars.

All of the others (Bit, 360, and whatever else claims to have a center output) use L+R and that doesn't work for a center channel.


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

Use an MS-8 and let it do time alignment, then have a RF 360.3 behind it to tune with... haha.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

2 of them would be better since you could do active on all of the speakers.


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