# HAT "Imagine" 6.5" Set



## benny z

i dedicated a solid hour this morning auditioning the 6.5" imagine set on the display board at mobile audio here in town.

i threw a lot of tough material at them, hoping to be able to find some faults. my initial reaction was "ok, which sub is running with them?" so i went and touched all the subs in the listening room. none were moving! seriously flabbergasted at the low end coming from this simple-looking coaxial set! i opened the door to the room and even asked my friend toby if there was a sub running. he verified that there was not. we had a little discussion about the enclosures they were in (typical display board small sealed boxes), and how they might perform differently in a more IB setup found in most car situations. he's now installed a few sets and said they actually have more midbass output installed! i'm seriously thinking these might give clarus a run for their money in the midbass department.

beyond my initial knee-jerk reaction to the midbass, i couldn't find a single fault with the set. they have the typical hybrid speaker sound, imo - very natural midrange and smooth yet detailed highs. i played them at a variety of volume ranges from soft to very loud and they handled complex passages without a sweat. seemed very linear throughout the volume range.

not sure how they do all this for $200 a set. i would be happy with these speakers at $500 a set. i a/b tested them next to a $400 jl audio set and these simply blew them away imho.

awesome job hybrid audio!


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## astrochex

Another great Imagine review. How were the speakers powered in the demo, HU or amp?

Man its gonna be a long wait before I can get these.


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## King Nothing

benny z said:


> i dedicated a solid hour this morning auditioning the 6.5" imagine set on the display board at mobile audio here in town.
> 
> i threw a lot of tough material at them, hoping to be able to find some faults. my initial reaction was "ok, which sub is running with them?" so i went and touched all the subs in the listening room. none were moving! seriously flabbergasted at the low end coming from this simple-looking coaxial set! i opened the door to the room and even asked my friend toby if there was a sub running. he verified that there was not. we had a little discussion about the enclosures they were in (typical display board small sealed boxes), and how they might perform differently in a more IB setup found in most car situations. he's now installed a few sets and said they actually have more midbass output installed! i'm seriously thinking these might give clarus a run for their money in the midbass department.
> 
> beyond my initial knee-jerk reaction to the midbass, i couldn't find a single fault with the set. they have the typical hybrid speaker sound, imo - very natural midrange and smooth yet detailed highs. i played them at a variety of volume ranges from soft to very loud and they handled complex passages without a sweat. seemed very linear throughout the volume range.
> 
> not sure how they do all this for $200 a set. i would be happy with these speakers at $500 a set. i a/b tested them next to a $400 jl audio set and these simply blew them away imho.
> 
> awesome job hybrid audio!


Where in illinois are you??


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## benny z

bloomington/normal.

you?

cheers!
- ben


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## Yuck.

I went on the hybrid site, it lists them at $500. Where are you getting the price of $200?


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## Horsemanwill

your lookin at the price of the Clarus set. the Imagine is the ones for 200


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## benny z

horesemanwill is correct - clarus is ~$500. imagine is the brand new line and runs ~$200. i believe they are only available in 6.5" at the moment, but more sizes will be coming from what i understand, including 6x9 & 5x7 iirc. my friend at mobile audio told me today that there is going to be a 6.5" subwoofer in the line as well, and was eager to get some into the store. can't wait to hear that!


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## Yuck.

I wonder how well they'd fit in some Civic FA5 doors/stock tweeter location, for that price + my SAX 100.2 I could be in business... lol


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## IBcivic

6.5'' will fit in there fine. you will , however need to make a baffle for your speakers or cut-out the stock speakers and use the frame as baffles. you will also need to fabricate a rain shield above them, to deflect water from ruining your speakers.


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## Scott Buwalda

^ Actually, the Imagine have water proof paper cones. Mount them without a rain shield!

Thanks to the OP for the great review! They are indeed $200.00/set, and have been shipping now for about a week and a half...

Scott


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## IBcivic

fyi...maybe , if you live in the ''south'', you don't. water becomes ice[having frozen speakers suck] and then .... calcium chloride [de-icing salt], really helps lower re-sale value, when it eats through the speaker's finish, eventually ruining it. just speaking from experience


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## Ianaconi

Awesome review.

Can't wait to listen to them also!

Should be here tomorrow.

Got a photo of the display booth where they were installed?


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## David_Edwards

Great review! Glad to see the Imagine line is getting the press it deserves!


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## jace314

I was on there site, and all I see is the Imagine series at 499 and up? Are they no longer in the $200 price range...Straight link please if Im wrong!

Thanks


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## Wrong

I dont see a price on Hybrids website for them, if you go to the internet dealer you will see the price

HYBRID AUDIO TECHNOLOGIES IMAGINE I6-2 SPEAKER SYSTEM


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## astrochex

jace314 said:


> I was on there site, and all I see is the Imagine series at 499 and up? Are they no longer in the $200 price range...Straight link please if Im wrong!
> 
> Thanks


From a post by Scott Buwalda at Buwalda Hybrids International Bulletin Board • View topic - Imagine Series Two-Way Now Shipping, "The Imagine I61-2 retails for $199.99 in the United States market".


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## Jboogie

Is there anything out there that u would compare their SQ to?


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## benny z

i would compare the sound to every other hybrid speaker set. the overall sound is very similar throughout the lines imo.

i will see if i can snap a pic of the listening room i auditioned them in. i'm eager to go give them another listen anyway. 

cheers!
- ben


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## D___T

Really interesting.

I'm putting together my system and have been shopping (as in stumbling around the internet reading conflicting reviews...) a 6.5" component set.

I have a Sundown 100.4D sitting here (and a nice Knu cable kit w/ Karma SS wiring) so I'm anxious to get the speaker part of the equation resolved. I plan on running the components with 2 channels (and 3/4 for a single sub).

I've been thinking CDT CL, Hertz (ESK?), Rainbow, ID CSX and I think the most interesting brand so far from my reading has been DLS (R6A) - until now 

Pretty much these wants:

Under $250 (from an authorized source)
Tight/punchy mid-bass
Soft (i.e., not harsh) upper/tweets
Adjustable crossovers are a plus, but not a deal breaker
Work well with ~100watts per side

I'd be mounting the tweeters in the factory position in the upper front corner of the door, with the mids down in the factory location (kind of by your knee).

I also sort of dig on smaller, boutique kind of brands.


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## benny z

fwiw, my previous car had a dls set (up35).

now in both of my cars i run hybrid audio speakers (legatia in my bmw & clarus in my mazda).

just some food for thought.


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## ReloadedSS

benny z said:


> horesemanwill is correct - clarus is ~$500. imagine is the brand new line and runs ~$200. i believe they are only available in 6.5" at the moment, but more sizes will be coming from what i understand, including 6x9 & 5x7 iirc. my friend at mobile audio told me today that there is going to be a 6.5" subwoofer in the line as well, and was eager to get some into the store. can't wait to hear that!


The imagine line has me wondering if I should wait to acquire other speakers. I was thinking about getting a 6x9 and/or a 6.5 sub, but couldn't get into HAT before (price$$$) but the new Imagine line has me intrigued.

Sure, money no object, I'd be down for (several sets of) Legatia Pro love, but I've got a budget to keep...


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## Hillbilly SQ

Jboogie said:


> Is there anything out there that u would compare their SQ to?


They have a sound you'll either love or hate. I personally prefer a more squeaky clean sound. When I hear the word "natural" I think of the inherant distortion a paper cone has. This is what I've heard in every single HAT install I've heard to date. This trait can be a good thing if that's the sound you're going for. I'd imagine said trait would also be better for pinpoint imaging. Would also make the bass output more obvious because distortion makes it "sound" louder. Just my opinions and nothing more.


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## keep_hope_alive

Wrong said:


> I dont see a price on Hybrids website for them, if you go to the internet dealer you will see the price
> 
> HYBRID AUDIO TECHNOLOGIES IMAGINE I6-2 SPEAKER SYSTEM


is that an authorized seller??? 

If I don't have dealers local, who best to get them through? Direct from HAT?


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## jonnyanalog

keep_hope_alive said:


> is that an authorized seller???
> 
> If I don't have dealers local, who best to get them through? Direct from HAT?


Yes he is authorized. And a good guy to work with to boot. 
The local shop near me has no idea that the Imagine line exists plus with Tax it would be cheaper to get it from Tom @ 12V.


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## bassfromspace

jonnyanalog said:


> Yes he is authorized. And a good guy to work with to boot.
> The local shop near me has no idea that the Imagine line exists plus with Tax it would be cheaper to get it from Tom @ 12V.


Who deals HAT in the metroplex?


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## jonnyanalog

Sonic Boom in Aubrey on US 380 and Paloma Creek BLVD. They are literally just out front of my house. They don't stock anything HAT but they can order stuff. According to Scott they haven't ordered anything from them in a long time.


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## Ianaconi

The Imagine order have just arrived in Brazil.

They look amazing.

The construction is top notch.

Can't wait to try it out!


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## keep_hope_alive

I just received a set of Imagine's today. They look great. I'll be doing a direct comparison of them with a set of Clarus next to Hertz ESK, HSK, and MLK, as well as Alpine Type-X Pro and PG Ti Elite. The local shop is going to audition them with me.

Thanks again Scott!


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## tanakasan

^^Interested!

Robert


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## ReloadedSS

keep_hope_alive said:


> I just received a set of Imagine's today. They look great. I'll be doing a direct comparison of them with a set of Clarus next to Hertz ESK, HSK, and MLK, as well as Alpine Type-X Pro and PG Ti Elite. The local shop is going to audition them with me.
> 
> Thanks again Scott!


Very very interested in reading your review.


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## keep_hope_alive

I'll take notes. 

A co-worker is letting me help design/build a system for his 2005 tC. He wants to audition speakers and I would like him to hear HAT, as well as the shop. Nearest HAT dealer is 3+ hours away.


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## subwoofery

keep_hope_alive said:


> I just received a set of Imagine's today. They look great. I'll be doing a direct comparison of them with a set of Clarus next to Hertz ESK, HSK, and MLK, as well as Alpine Type-X Pro and PG Ti Elite. The local shop is going to audition them with me.
> 
> Thanks again Scott!


Please let us know... I have a friend looking for a "cheap" system and has found an HSK for cheap (less than $250). 
I told him that he would be better off with the Imagine set but since he never heard of HAT, he doesn't care :blush: 

Wish I could hear it, he trusts my judgement but since I never heard it... 

Kelvin


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## keep_hope_alive

subwoofery said:


> Please let us know... I have a friend looking for a "cheap" system and has found an HSK for cheap (less than $250).
> I told him that he would be better off with the Imagine set but since he never heard of HAT, he doesn't care :blush:
> 
> Wish I could hear it, he trusts my judgement but since I never heard it...
> 
> Kelvin


I'm doing an install in a 1939 Chevy Coupe show car. Owner trusts me and I decided he'd be happy with either the ESK165 or the I6.1-2. So I decided we'd use Imagine after a few emails with Scott - primarily due to off axis response. That, and customer service means a lot to me.


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## MaXius

Scott Buwalda said:


> They are indeed $200.00/set, and have been shipping now for about a week and a half...


You might want to check your dealers are quoting the right price, the Aust guy is quoting $499..

Imagine Series - Hybrid Audio Technologies Australia


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## dkh

There might be a difference between US dollars and AUS dollars


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## David_Edwards

Currency Converter - Yahoo! Finance


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## koshaw

So I got a DEH-P880PRS HU and this speaker set should make my system. But do I need an amp for em?

Will these fit in my 2005 Toyota Corolla LE Sedan ???


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## IBcivic

your corolla has 5.25'' speakers in the front doors...with a little bit of cutting and properly built baffle, they probably will.
if you were thinking installing these on the rear deck, they will fit w/o any metal work,but you will still need a baffle to properly mount them.


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## koshaw

TY! amitaF!


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## IrishPilot

In on the review as well. Im also curious what people find running these as coaxials vs components.


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## earksiinni

Just finished doing my first install, and I used a pair of Imagine's for the front (Tom at 12V was great, btw!) It took me long enough to mod my Jeep Cherokee's front doors to get the 6.5" mids to fit that I didn't bother disconnecting the tweets and mounting them on the dash.

So as components mounted in the door in what is probably a very amateurish install...I'm a little let down given all the extremely positive reviews. Obviously these are 100x better than my stock Infinity speakers, but somehow I wanted something more. Another reviewer said that they tried hard to find something to complain about and failed. I agree, but in a bad way: the difference with my stock speakers was like night and day yet I wasn't blown away. I have nothing to compare them with other than a pair of Alpine SPS-500's that I bought from Best Buy before I knew what I was doing, and obviously these are better than those, which sounded marginally better than trash. I've noticed that when I move my head down into the well the Imagine's sound considerably better, so I'm hoping that once I get the time to remount the tweets up high that it might sound better.

Part of the problem is that I don't have a sub, which I thought that I wouldn't need but which I realize now is more than just for loud hip hop. I'm thrilled each time the Imagine's hit their low end, so I'm thinking that's what's missing. The mids and highs are wonderfully clear and "normal" with a slightly warm tone. Again, nothing to complain about, but after having sunk ~$1k total into this project I'm beginning to wonder if I should expect more.


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## MaXius

Have you done any sound deadening in the door yet?

What are you driving them with?

Also they will probably sound even better once they've been 'broken in' a bit..


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## subwoofery

MaXius said:


> Have you done any sound deadening in the door yet?
> 
> What are you driving them with?
> 
> Also they will probably sound even better once they've been 'broken in' a bit..


Was about to ask the same questions. 
What does your system consist of? Amp? 

Also, are your speaker's in phase? Please don't take it personally, just helping 

Kelvin


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## earksiinni

I sound deadened the doors with Dynamat Xtreme and my amp's an RF P400-4 (got it on a great discount). Haven't bothered with external crossovers, too expensive for me right now, but the Imagine's have built in crossovers. Everything's in phase as far as I can tell.

I should mention that I've hacked the hell out of my doors. Cherokees only take 5.25"'s, and I had to further enlarge them to fit a jigsaw into the cavity to cut out some steel rod that was protruding into the back of the speaker. Still, I put Dynamat all over and I even cut out some sheet metal and covered up some large holes (and put Dynamat over the sheet metal, as well).


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## MaXius

So did you dynamat the inside of the outer part of the door, as well as the face where you're mounting the speaker? And did you put any foam or anything behind where the speaker's mounted so you don't get reflected backwaves? Some people also recommend claying around the speaker baffle to make it more solid..


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## earksiinni

Nope, didn't put any foam, and I'll look into clay. It'll have to wait though, I've already spent too much money on this project!


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## benny z

earksiinni said:


> Just finished doing my first install, and I used a pair of Imagine's for the front (Tom at 12V was great, btw!) It took me long enough to mod my Jeep Cherokee's front doors to get the 6.5" mids to fit that I didn't bother disconnecting the tweets and mounting them on the dash.
> 
> So as components mounted in the door in what is probably a very amateurish install...I'm a little let down given all the extremely positive reviews. Obviously these are 100x better than my stock Infinity speakers, but somehow I wanted something more. Another reviewer said that they tried hard to find something to complain about and failed. I agree, but in a bad way: the difference with my stock speakers was like night and day yet I wasn't blown away. I have nothing to compare them with other than a pair of Alpine SPS-500's that I bought from Best Buy before I knew what I was doing, and obviously these are better than those, which sounded marginally better than trash. I've noticed that when I move my head down into the well the Imagine's sound considerably better, so I'm hoping that once I get the time to remount the tweets up high that it might sound better.
> 
> Part of the problem is that I don't have a sub, which I thought that I wouldn't need but which I realize now is more than just for loud hip hop. I'm thrilled each time the Imagine's hit their low end, so I'm thinking that's what's missing. The mids and highs are wonderfully clear and "normal" with a slightly warm tone. Again, nothing to complain about, but after having sunk ~$1k total into this project I'm beginning to wonder if I should expect more.


ironically i am about to install a set coaxially mounted in my sister-in-law's '04 jeep grand cherokee this weekend. it will be a proper install with adequate dampening in the doors and an aftermarket amplifier (older rf punch power 550x driving these plus a single sub).

i'll let you know my opinion of them in this same configuration.


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## GLN305

earksiinni said:


> I sound deadened the doors with Dynamat Xtreme and my amp's an RF P400-4 (got it on a great discount). Haven't bothered with external crossovers, too expensive for me right now, but the Imagine's have built in crossovers. Everything's in phase as far as I can tell.
> 
> I should mention that I've hacked the hell out of my doors. Cherokees only take 5.25"'s, and I had to further enlarge them to fit a jigsaw into the cavity to cut out some steel rod that was protruding into the back of the speaker. Still, I put Dynamat all over and I even cut out some sheet metal and covered up some large holes (and put Dynamat over the sheet metal, as well).



try moving the balance to one side with a bass heavy track and if the bass get louder with just one side playing, you may be out of phase electrically. Worth a shot and it's easy.


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## doitor

I just put a single HAT Imagine 6.5" in coaxial mode smack center in my dash as a center channel powered off the MS-8 playing from 80 hz and up.
It's the first time I've listened to the Imagine line and it's doing a very good job keeping up with it's big brothers and sisters (Legatia and Legatia SE).

J.


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## keep_hope_alive

so what are they lacking? you won't get sub bass out of a 6.5 woofer/mid. the Imagine woofer is an excellent midrange, and excels at midbass as long as it's in a good sealed cavity. 

did you seal up the holes in the doors? did you use weatherstripping foam to seal between the speaker and door and between the speaker and the plastic door panel/grill?

is the factory grill larger than the 6.5" speaker or smaller?

tweeters at your knees aren't very impressive. relocating them to the dash is a darn good idea - on or off axis


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## benny z

Friend and I knocked this out for my sister-in-law earlier today. Mounted the Imagines coaxially in the OEM locations in the doors with a simple 1/4" ply baffle traced from the OEM 6x9s. We matted behind the woofer and on the other flat open pieces of the outer door skin and then I put some closed cell foam directly behind and below where the woofer sits.










The inner door skin got a layer of matting filling the holes in the metal.










Didn't really go to great lengths to angle the baffle or stiffen the metal mounting point any more than the matting as this is just for an 18 yr old girl thumping Brittany Spears and the like. 










Fed with a solid 65w per side my opion remains the same. These speakers rock! I was expecting less honestly based on your report, but both her and I are very happy with the result. I don't even feel compelled to relocate the tweeters to the dash as I was suspecting I might.


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## MaXius

You might want to put something solid behind the dynamat on that HUGE gaping hole.. just covering it with dynamat isn't gonna make it rigid. 

Kinda like hyperventilating into a paper bag, sorta. "Oops, I did it again...."


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## RattyMcClelland

Its worth noting that my HAT Imagines needed 40hours of playing time before they sound amazing. After that the lows drop very well and the midrange sounds smoother.

They iron out the more you play them.


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## benny z

MaXius said:


> You might want to put something solid behind the dynamat on that HUGE gaping hole.. just covering it with dynamat isn't gonna make it rigid.
> 
> Kinda like hyperventilating into a paper bag, sorta. "Oops, I did it again...."


understand your concern, but as i noted this install was for my 18yr-old sister-in-law who just wanted an upgrade so she can go "night bumping" (yes, that's really what she called it). the matting over that hole isn't intended to provide rigidity, rather to separate the back waves from the front waves of the woofer. the improvement over stock is drastic. she gets the bump she was after via a 12" sealed sub, plus the classic hybrid tonality/clarity. the system seriously screams when asked!

given just a little bit of eq and time alignment work - something she doesn't have the capability of adjusting - the system could be extremely satisfying considering the budget.


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## red03vette

hey nice clean simple install Benny! i like it, and it seems you and sis like the sound of those imagines. that's great. i hope i get to listen to a set myself soon.


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## King Nothing

Lookin good benny. Did you get the hybrids from mobile audio? they had some HATs last time I was in there for some fuses. Wonder if these would be an upgrade for my 720prs set that Im not too fond of....


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## BigRed

I run on imagine 6.5 for my center and its fantastic  nice work there Benny


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## benny z

thanks guys...

yes, they were purchased from mobile audio plus in normal, il... owners of that shop are friends of mine and i actually helped get them in touch with scotty b after purchasing legatia drivers direct a few years ago when i was installing the system in my last car. they have been hybrid dealers ever since and sell the snot out of em! (for good reason!)


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## King Nothing

Do you think they can get loud? I have a cobra convertible, so I need loud, clean volume over strict SQ. Also, do you think they would survive 230 clean watts per side? My 720prs set does well at that power level


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## benny z

honestly, i played them louder than i would ever listen to them at just to make sure they would handle whatever loud brittany "night bumping" abuse might come their way. didn't seem to be any breakup or audible distortion at "super loud" level, but then i don't know what your reference of "loud" is. to me ~95db is pretty loud... 230w of clean power as headroom, no problem i'd think.

we'll have to hook up at some point since we are so close - i have been wanting to hear those prs speaks!


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## King Nothing

benny z said:


> we'll have to hook up at some point since we are so close - i have been wanting to hear those prs speaks!


Im less than impressed by the PRS. Might be install, I dont know. ill sell them to you, or trade for some zapco goodness LOL


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## RattyMcClelland

benny z said:


> honestly, i played them louder than i would ever listen to them at just to make sure they would handle whatever loud brittany "night bumping" abuse might come their way. didn't seem to be any breakup or audible distortion at "super loud" level, but then i don't know what your reference of "loud" is. to me ~95db is pretty loud... 230w of clean power as headroom, no problem i'd think.
> 
> we'll have to hook up at some point since we are so close - i have been wanting to hear those prs speaks!


Pretty much same here. I used my SPL monitor to check how loud on music. It may not be totally accurate but anything above 97db was too uncomfortable for music. Was too loud for me.
But i never got any distortion until clipping.


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## iroc2nv

What rms are they ? I have a RF 400.2 also. Do you think they will sound better than my Pheonix gold 6.5 comps ?


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## astrochex

^
100W @4ohms


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## iroc2nv

Thanks astro


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## ebrahim

I have the Imagine and I am trading them in for the Clarus tomorrow. Great speakers and I love them. The problem is that they are not widely known as the famous JL Audio speakers as well as the famous Boston Acoustics.


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## 12v Electronics

ebrahim said:


> Great speakers and I love them. The problem is that they are not widely known as the famous JL Audio speakers as well as the famous Boston Acoustics.


Is that a problem?


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## ebrahim

Not to me. Hey I love Hybrid Audio speakers and Scott Buwalda to in a way. Anyways Scott has been good to me. What I was meant to say if you go to Spring Break Nationals JL had Will Castro from Unique Whips and other famous people bragging about JL. 

My older brother never heard about Hybrid Audio and he thinks JL is the best because of their advertising. I proved him wrong when he heard the Imagine in my ride.

So I guess I am bad at explaining things sorry.


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## 12v Electronics

ebrahim said:


> Not to me. Hey I love Hybrid Audio speakers and Scott Buwalda to in a way. Anyways Scott has been good to me. What I was meant to say if you go to Spring Break Nationals JL had Will Castro from Unique Whips and other famous people bragging about JL.
> 
> My older brother never heard about Hybrid Audio and he thinks JL is the best because of their advertising. I proved him wrong when he heard the Imagine in my ride.
> 
> So I guess I am bad at explaining things sorry.


I was at SBN bragging about HAT and although I am not as famous as Will Castro, I *AM *special. (At least that is what my mother always told me )

I was just bustin' your chops. I am happy you like the speakers!


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## ebrahim

Well my mom said I am crazy. Anyways my girl busts my chops to so no hard feelings my friend.



12v Electronics said:


> I was at SBN bragging about HAT and although I am not as famous as Will Castro, I *AM *special. (At least that is what my mother always told me )
> 
> I was just bustin' your chops. I am happy you like the speakers!


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## Scott Buwalda

JL is a very reputable company and many of their top-teir managers are close, personal friends of mine. They have built a solid company. Hybrid Audio just needs a few more years to get to household name status.


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## benny z

if hat becomes a household name, it will be a love/hate thing for me.



i'd really hate to pick up a crotchfield and see hat on the cover.


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## Scott Buwalda

^ that's not my version of household name. LOL


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## fit_tuner

hey scott, any info on the 6.5" subs? looking at keeping weight at a minimum, and was interested when i saw that you were planning on releasing a 6.5" sub


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## blaze452

Sorry to get off topic. But how do you guys think hybrids speakers compare to focal? I've listened to both and ended up purchasing the legatia L6SE and L1R2 SE tweeter which ill be installing in a couple weeks. Just wondering, i've heard both the legatia L6 and focal krx2's and personally thought the l6's and L1 tweeter sounded nicer than the focals.


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## ISTundra

blaze452 said:


> Sorry to get off topic. But how do you guys think hybrids speakers compare to focal? I've listened to both and ended up purchasing the legatia L6SE and L1R2 SE tweeter which ill be installing in a couple weeks. Just wondering, i've heard both the legatia L6 and focal krx2's and personally thought the l6's and L1 tweeter sounded nicer than the focals.


It's hard to get truly objective opinions when comparing brands. Everyone has different musical preferences and experiences that have colored their general opinions of one brand or the other, so don't expect conclusive answers to this. Unless someone has demoed HAT vs. Focal in the same exact install conditions, you're going to get blanket opinions like "HAT sucks" or "can't go wrong with Focal". How is that helpful to you?

That being said, I have the same set of HAT drivers as you. I think they sound great (in my personal opinion, no comment on Focal).


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## blaze452

ISTundra said:


> It's hard to get truly objective opinions when comparing brands. Everyone has different musical preferences and experiences that have colored their general opinions of one brand or the other, so don't expect conclusive answers to this. Unless someone has demoed HAT vs. Focal in the same exact install conditions, you're going to get blanket opinions like "HAT sucks" or "can't go wrong with Focal". How is that helpful to you?
> 
> That being said, I have the same set of HAT drivers as you. I think they sound great (in my personal opinion, no comment on Focal).


You already got the SE's installed?! Dang haha  i havnt heard mine yet... can't wait to get them installed, ill be running them off arc se's could you give any kind of review on them? And also do you have any install pics?


----------



## ISTundra

I haven't had much time on them yet, so I'm not ready to give a full review, but I like them quite well so far. I posted up a few pics and comments here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1126119-post120.html

There are a few other followup comments in that thread, if you feel like wading through all the muck created by some monkeydick troll.


----------



## blaze452

ISTundra said:


> It's hard to get truly objective opinions when comparing brands. Everyone has different musical preferences and experiences that have colored their general opinions of one brand or the other, so don't expect conclusive answers to this. Unless someone has demoed HAT vs. Focal in the same exact install conditions, you're going to get blanket opinions like "HAT sucks" or "can't go wrong with Focal". How is that helpful to you?
> 
> That being said, I have the same set of HAT drivers as you. I think they sound great (in my personal opinion, no comment on Focal).


Also yes i know ill never really get a reliable answer to the question, i was just curious what people think about the two brands compared by one another. Hoping some other people have heard both. 

There's a local dealer around me that sells focal speakers and really stands by them and says there the best speakers he's heard to date. Which is totally understandable because they do sound great. I asked him if he's ever heard hybrid audio speakers and he said he's never heard of them. But that if there is something better out there he wants to carry it cus he wants to sell the best product to his customers . So basically im also hoping i can broaden his eyes to a new product he's never even heard of  and i know everybody doesn't like the same tuning so i figure ill let him tune it to his liking since i have a ms-8 and it'll be simple to change it back to my way. Its kinda like my own little competition i guess haha. Im pretty competive and id like to throw a not so mainstream product out there that supersedes a mainstream product such as focal. So im hoping it turns out in my favor he said he wants to check them out regardless


----------



## blaze452

ISTundra said:


> I haven't had much time on them yet, so I'm not ready to give a full review, but I like them quite well so far. I posted up a few pics and comments here:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1126119-post120.html
> 
> There are a few other followup comments in that thread, if you feel like wading through all the muck created by some monkeydick troll.


Wow that was kinda funny, but rediculous at the same time haha. Nice install can't wait to hear your review on them, and also get my hybrid sweetness installed


----------



## ebrahim

Everyone has their own opinion. Not all of us had heard/audition every speaker brand out there. I heard Hertz, JL Audio, Boston Acoustics, DEI Orion, Arc Audio, Kicker, JBL, HAT, Morel, Infinity, Kenwood and Sony.

I have my own opinions for each brand and to be honest I prefer HAT over Hertz because of their tweeters and that they have a better midbass response.

Some just jump into the brand because of their popularity or their readiness availability at their local dealer down the street. Not all of us are willing to go through every brand out there.

Just my two cents.


----------



## cnut334

I'm really enjoying the forum and all the learning i'm getting from everyone. I'm going to try out a set of the imagines and hope that i'll like them.


----------



## agentk98

Was looking for a passive set to replace the CA18RNX and Seas Neos that got flooded last year. These look like they will foot the bill. Didn't want to do any modifications on the new Tucson ix and fitting 6.5s is easier.
Called the local distributor a few hours ago to see if I can get them ordered. If not, I'll get them online and have a cousin bring them home for me


----------



## 12v Electronics

agentk98 said:


> Was looking for a passive set to replace the CA18RNX and Seas Neos that got flooded last year. These look like they will foot the bill. Didn't want to do any modifications on the new Tucson ix and fitting 6.5s is easier.
> Called the local distributor a few hours ago to see if I can get them ordered. If not, I'll get them online and have a cousin bring them home for me


We have free shipping on all Hybrid audio products at 12v Electronics Home Page. Everything is in stock and can ship today if purchased by 3pm CST. 

Let me know if I can help.

Tom


----------



## agentk98

12v Electronics said:


> We have free shipping on all Hybrid audio products at 12v Electronics Home Page. Everything is in stock and can ship today if purchased by 3pm CST.
> 
> Let me know if I can help.
> 
> Tom


Wow! Thanks Tom. I'm actually way over on the other side of the globe, Manila. I emailed the local distributor (Hi Fi Lounge) and they say they only have the Clarus on stock. Other than shipping them to Manila for free.. I guess you can help by confirming if any of the Imagine's are on their way to the distributors here? I'll also be in Singapore in a couple of weeks so I can also check them out there.

Sorry for the off topic. Please PM me back instead


----------



## subiemax

Just ordered at set of Imagine 6.5 based on reviews and comments here. So if I don't like them, I'm suing DIYMA. Will be pairing them with a DIYMA 12. 
Anyone tell me where to cross them over if I run them active?


----------



## Wonway

subiemax said:


> Just ordered at set of Imagine 6.5 based on reviews and comments here. So if I don't like them, I'm suing DIYMA. Will be pairing them with a DIYMA 12.
> Anyone tell me where to cross them over if I run them active?


Are you going to run them as coaxials? 

Somewhere around 5k would be a good place to start.


----------



## subiemax

No, mids in the doors and tweets in the sails.


----------



## F1Audio

Does anyone have experience with the Imagines compared to either the ID v.1 CXS62 or Exile Xtec65? I am looking for some speakers and thought I would see if the Imagines would work for me. Those are the last 2 sets of speaks I ran and I loved them both, with the Exiles taking a slight edge....Thanks.


----------



## chithead

How would these sound dash mounted?


----------



## subiemax

Sounds like you have a big dash
I don't think there are a lot of people that have heard these yet. Mine will be in tomorrow and hopefully installed this weekend.


----------



## 12v Electronics

chithead said:


> How would these sound dash mounted?


You thinking of these in your Ram dash? 

That would take some customizing. I do have the Imagine 6x9's in the doors of my 2010 Ram and have killer midbass with nothing other than a spacer to keep the magnet off of the window regulator. Those and a set of Hybrid L3's in the factory dash location and I am very pleased. Even without a tweeter. 


Nice truck BTW!


----------



## chithead

You are the person I need to be talking to then...


----------



## 12v Electronics

chithead said:


> You are the person I need to be talking to then...


I'll be glad to help although mine is still a work in progress. Right now trying to figure out the best way to get a flat signal from the head unit. (same as yours). Looks like I am going back to a summing unit like the Audio Control DQL-8. 

Feel free to email me. Contact info is in my signature.

Tom


----------



## chithead

You can disregard my PM, I sent you an email that may better explain things. 

Thanks,
Daniel


----------



## mickskillz

I have a question about my install... I currently have Diamond Audio Hex S600 powered by a JL Audio 300/4 installed in a G35 coupe. I'm replacing them with the HAT Imagine series installed in component manner. I've been out of the speaker game for a minute... Do I just run these straight to the amp or do I need to purchase a crossover. I'm used to a component set coming with a passive crossover. I bought these speakers from a close friends recommendation. any suggestions on how they should be ran would be great. Thanks in advance.


----------



## subiemax

They come with a built in crossover for the tweeter. It's mounted on the woofer. You just have to run the wire from the tweeter to the woofer. You can run them full range straight off the amp. They do recommend a 50hertz high pass if you are running a lot of power to them.


----------



## subiemax

As far as how they sound, I am pretty impressed. Just got them installed last night, so I don't have a lot of time with them, but they sound pretty great. I'm running them active crossed over at 4k and high passed at 50hertz with 75x4. Woofers in my doors and tweets in the A pods off axis. These thing really put out some midbass. Cant wait till they get broken in a bit. They play loud and clean without being harsh on the top end. Never tried them passive, but they sound great active. For the money, I don't think you could do much better. You could spend a lot more and get a lot less.


----------



## cirodias

I've listened to imagine and i like too much!

Very good for how much they costs


----------



## subiemax

Been playing with the Imagines for a little while. Experimenting with the crossover points and the best I can come up with is.....none. I do have the mids high-passed at 63hz. But on the top end I've found they sound best with none. I've tried them from 3k- 7k with different slopes and they sound the best just rolling off naturally. HAT says they start to roll off at 6k at around 6db octave. I'm really surprised because the last set I had(prs) really came alive when I went active. I don't see a whole lot of benefit running these active. I'll probably bridge my 4 ch amp and run them passive. 
Your results may vary.


----------



## Scott Buwalda

Lots of time and consideration was given to this set so they'd be near flawless when run with a simple 2-channel amplifier, or off of capable deck power.


----------



## subiemax

Scott Buwalda said:


> Lots of time and consideration was given to this set so they'd be near flawless when run with a simple 2-channel amplifier, or off of capable deck power.


Time well spent! I'm really happy with them.


----------



## ebrahim

Honestly I prefer the HAT IMAGINE over the HERTZ HI ENERGY 165 XL and the reason for that is the HAT have more midbass than the Hertz. Also in my future install I would take my Morels and put them in the rear and have the HAT CLARUS 6.5 in the front but that would have to wait a while because of my girlfriend long story.


----------



## final frontier

ebrahim said:


> Honestly I prefer the HAT IMAGINE over the HERTZ HI ENERGY 165 XL


Hertz Hi Energy 165 XL = HSK 165 XL ???

Whether you mean HSK 165 -OR- HSK 165 *XL* is a ~$200 difference (online) in and of itself - with the latter costing $200 more than the former.

This comment (and a whole lot of my own research) just sealed the deal for a pair of HAT Imagines today...thank you very much.


----------



## 12v Electronics

final frontier said:


> Hertz Hi Energy 165 XL = HSK 165 XL ???
> 
> Whether you mean HSK 165 -OR- HSK 165 *XL* is a ~$200 difference (online) in and of itself - with the latter costing $200 more than the former.
> 
> This comment (and a whole lot of my own research) just sealed the deal for a pair of HAT Imagines today...thank you very much.


You will not be sorry! They are a great set. 

In fact I spent some time in the Hybrid suite at the CES show where they had a "secret" set of speakers for people to demo. I watched 2 sets of people who took a listen drop their jaw when they found out it was a stock set of Imagine 6x9's behind the grille. 

It still makes me giggle (mostly because I was wondering WTF they had in there when I auditioned them) :surprised:


----------



## final frontier

ROCK ON! Am a pumped mutha now!!


----------



## ebrahim

I am going to get the Imagine series for my sister after she was on my tail about them. Then again she has a Toyota Camry and I am not going to go high end because I know she wants something to replace her stock speakers.

Also my gf wants to go HAT route to but since I love her to much I am going the Clarus route or even the Legitia or Legitia Pro depending on how much she loves me.


----------



## final frontier

Well, don't let her fool you into high end gear, make her earn it.


----------



## ebrahim

I know what you thinking and so was I. If you talking about the bedroom she goes both ways.



final frontier said:


> Well, don't let her fool you into high end gear, make her earn it.


----------



## trojan fan

ebrahim said:


> I know what you thinking and so was I. If you talking about the bedroom she goes both ways.





final frontier said:


> Well, don't let her fool you into high end gear, make her earn it.


I like the way you two guys think, keep up the good work


----------



## ebrahim

Sorry no pics of her that you guys got to earn. Maybe a Ferrari would be a good trade.



trojan fan said:


> I like the way you two guys think, keep up the good work


----------



## final frontier

ebrahim said:


> I know what you thinking and so was I. If you talking about the bedroom she goes both ways.


Wow, she likes country AND western...you ARE a lucky guy!!


----------



## ebrahim

Yeah she is eight years older than me to but boy she is HOT and to be honest she knows how to work it to. Also she has a good character to.



final frontier said:


> Wow, she likes country AND western...you ARE a lucky guy!!


----------



## trojan fan

ebrahim said:


> Yeah she is eight years older than me to but boy she is HOT and to be honest she knows how to work it to. Also she has a good character to.


please post some pics of your setup...lol


----------



## ebrahim

I will talk to her about it and I will go down on record that I have the BEST SETUP on this site.




trojan fan said:


> please post some pics of your setup...lol


----------



## antikryst

agentk98 said:


> Was looking for a passive set to replace the CA18RNX and Seas Neos that got flooded last year. These look like they will foot the bill. Didn't want to do any modifications on the new Tucson ix and fitting 6.5s is easier.
> Called the local distributor a few hours ago to see if I can get them ordered. If not, I'll get them online and have a cousin bring them home for me


im in the same boat as you. called OUR local distributor and they said late march early april. but i cant wait!


----------



## djcantr

Great review. Wish I had somewhere close to listen to a set.


----------



## CaliAgents1688

Drool, lovely components.


----------



## Streetbeat Customz

Great price and sound huh!

Definatley looking into these


----------



## sasa097

does anyone know what the tweeters are crossed at?

I just installed the set and the midbass is incredible. but almost seems like the woofer is overworked when trying to cover the mids. can anyone reccomend where to cross these at if I was to go active?


----------



## subwoofery

sasa097 said:


> does anyone know what the tweeters are crossed at?
> 
> I just installed the set and the midbass is incredible. but almost seems like the woofer is overworked when trying to cover the mids. can anyone reccomend where to cross these at if I was to go active?


That only means 2 things: 
- try to use a higher highpass Xover on your mid (you might be HP too low) 
- did you try to reverse the polarity of both tweeters? You might be hearing distorsion at the Xover point. 

Regarding you going active, just read this: 
http://www.buwaldahybrids.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5424

Kelvin


----------



## hottcakes

here's another link that may help. scott's reply is down the ways a bit on where the mid drops off at. 

if you combine what both of those threads suggest then let the mid play without a lpf and start the tweet at 6khz with a min of 12db slope. well at the least thats what i got out of both of those. the manual states the lowest hpf 65hz but no slope.


----------



## 12v Electronics

How are the tweeters mounted in relation to the mids? Also, how are the mids installed? Dampened at all? And mounted to prevent cancellation? More details on the installation would be helpful. Feel free to call me tomorrow in the office. 847-461-9520

Sorry for the basic questions, but need to clarify before going further. 

Tom


----------



## sasa097

The tweeters are located in the stock E36 BMW location in the doors. Mids are mounted in the kick panel with proper deadening on the mounting surface. I also stuffed the baffle with acousta-stuff (just seemed like the thing to do?). I dont want to give the impression that these dissapointed me, quite the contrary, just that nagging feeling they could sound better with a little more experience and know-how than I currently possess. 

Thanks for the links, exactly what I was looking for.


----------



## subwoofery

sasa097 said:


> The tweeters are located in the stock E36 BMW location in the doors. Mids are mounted in the kick panel with proper deadening on the mounting surface. I also stuffed the baffle with acousta-stuff (just seemed like the thing to do?). I dont want to give the impression that these dissapointed me, quite the contrary, just that nagging feeling they could sound better with a little more experience and know-how than I currently possess.
> 
> Thanks for the links, exactly what I was looking for.


Did you try my suggestions? You problem sounds exactly like your either overworking the mid by playing it too low or distorsion at the Xover point... 

Kelvin


----------



## sasa097

I will try the highpass around 80hz later today and will report back. Im pretty sure I got the polarity right but I will try that too if I have to


----------



## 12v Electronics

sasa097 said:


> The tweeters are located in the stock E36 BMW location in the doors. Mids are mounted in the kick panel with proper deadening on the mounting surface. I also stuffed the baffle with acousta-stuff (just seemed like the thing to do?). I dont want to give the impression that these dissapointed me, quite the contrary, just that nagging feeling they could sound better with a little more experience and know-how than I currently possess.
> 
> Thanks for the links, exactly what I was looking for.


You will not need any polyfill in the E36 kickpanels. It vents to the A-pillar and into a huge airspace below the door threshold and eventually out under the car. One thing to play close attention to is the where the wiring harness goes into the door (in kick panel above speaker). It is a huge hole that you will want to seal as it goes directly into the mid's "airspace". 

If you are using stock locations for the tweeter I suggest you use the lower "midrange" opening as it seems to provide the best results especially on the drivers side as the uppper location fires right into the turn signal stalk. 

Those methods have worked pretty good using the included passive crossover. If you want to go active, I would probably start somewhere around the 6k mark and tune from there.


----------



## sasa097

well I finally had some time to mess around with the EQ'ing. All I can say it is MUCH better now. The soundstage seems to have been raised, but I can defintely notice the problem with the tweeter location on the drivers side, but that will have to wait. Now the million dollar question is am I hurting anything by leaving the polyfil behind the drivers? I would really prefer not mess with removing them if I dont have to.


----------



## dsauce16

how do the 6.5 clarus component set stack up against the imagine comps?? worth the price jump in your opinion? trying to decide between the two.. the clarus would be a bit on the high end of my price range but if they are worth it I want to pull the trigger before this 20% HAT deal is over. ANY help is appreciated thanks!! I am currently running the alpine type x ref 5.25 so i believe either set would be better?


----------



## 12v Electronics

dsauce16 said:


> how do the 6.5 clarus component set stack up against the imagine comps?? worth the price jump in your opinion? trying to decide between the two.. the clarus would be a bit on the high end of my price range but if they are worth it I want to pull the trigger before this 20% HAT deal is over. ANY help is appreciated thanks!! I am currently running the alpine type x ref 5.25 so i believe either set would be better?


Personally I think Hybrid shot themselves in the foot by releasing such a great sounding speaker at the Imagine price point. There are big differences such as the external adjustable passive crossover networks, cast baskets, and the differnces in the drivers themselves, but I gotta say that the Imagine's really rock!

The biggest difference I see is in most installations that have the tweeter mounted far away and off axis from the mid. The Clarus seem to do a better job IMO in these applications. Going active will close that gap even closer.

You can't go wrong with either. Hopefully others will chime in with some real life comparative experience.


----------



## subwoofery

I've heard the Clarus only once and was impressed. Midbass and clarity - that's all I could remember. 
However, when I heard the Imagine, I told myself "NO WAY" - it can't be that good, especially for the price. 



12v Electronics said:


> Personally I think Hybrid shot themselves in the foot by releasing such a great sounding speaker at the Imagine price point. There are big differences such as the external adjustable passive crossover networks, cast baskets, and the differnces in the drivers themselves, but I gotta say that the Imagine's really rock!
> 
> The biggest difference I see is in most installations that have the tweeter mounted far away and off axis from the mid. The Clarus seem to do a better job IMO in these applications. Going active will close that gap even closer.
> 
> You can't go wrong with either. Hopefully others will chime in with some real life comparative experience.


The ^ above comment is spot on. HAT really came close to the Clarus with the Imagine set. I'd consider the Imagine a more dynamic set while the Clarus is more mellow and smooth. 

Kelvin


----------



## orakulo

After reading the whole topic, I'm still confused, it seems the Imagine is in the level of the Clarus(or better) for half of the price.
Am I correct?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

The clarus is a step above the imagine, although not a very huge step. If your going for bang for the buck, the imagines are better bang for your buck.


----------



## trojan fan

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The clarus is a step above the imagine, although not a very huge step. If your going for bang for the buck, the imagines are better bang for your buck.


X2... exactly right.....for less than $200 shipped with a warranty, it's a hell of a deal... go read some of the "white papers" on the Hybrid site


----------



## orakulo

Cool guys, thanks for letting me know.


Does anyone have already compared them with the Massive RK6 or ID XS?


----------



## subwoofery

orakulo said:


> Cool guys, thanks for letting me know.
> 
> 
> Does anyone have already compared them with the Massive RK6 or ID XS?


The HAT Imagine is a good set, no doubt - however the ID XS is on another level in midrange tonality. 
Both are dynamic sets, and very lively. Close but the ID is still better IMO. 
Midbass wise, I feel the Imagine is better. 
You have to remember that the ID XS is twice as expensive. 

Did not use the Massive RK6 though, sorry. 

Kelvin


----------



## orakulo

Thanks, definitely it seems there's nothing better for the buck, I mean my budget is $250 for the component set, and my options were initially Focal, Hertz, Morel, Polk and DLS, and for everything I've been reading the HAT Imagine deliveries the same or more level of quality for less.

Does anyone ever tried to use them bi amplified, my idea is to use with a Fosgate T600-4 or JBL1004?


----------



## 12v Electronics

orakulo said:


> Thanks, definitely it seems there's nothing better for the buck, I mean my budget is $250 for the component set, and my options were initially Focal, Hertz, Morel, Polk and DLS, and for everything I've been reading the HAT Imagine deliveries the same or more level of quality for less.
> 
> Does anyone ever tried to use them bi amplified, my idea is to use with a Fosgate T600-4 or JBL1004?


Neither of those amps have high enough crossovers to go active by themselves. You would need external crossovers or just run the speakers passively like they come out of the box. 

They are on sale for 20% off through the end of the month. Imagine I61-2 Component / Coaxial Speaker Set - 12v Electronics

Use coupon code HAT1/5 at checkout.


----------



## orakulo

12v Electronics said:


> Neither of those amps have high enough crossovers to go active by themselves. You would need external crossovers or just run the speakers passively like they come out of the box.
> 
> They are on sale for 20% off through the end of the month. Imagine I61-2 Component / Coaxial Speaker Set - 12v Electronics
> 
> Use coupon code HAT1/5 at checkout.


Thanks for the tips, and for sure I'll buy, just waiting my next paycheck.

Which amp would recommend? And what about the RMS output, do you think the set can hand 600.4 amps?


----------



## 12v Electronics

orakulo said:


> Thanks for the tips, and for sure I'll buy, just waiting my next paycheck.
> 
> Which amp would recommend? And what about the RMS output, do you think the set can hand 600.4 amps?


They like between 60-150 watts. Right around 100w is ideal IMO.


----------



## orakulo

So not a really loud set.

I was thinking to use bi amplified or 2 for the midbasses and 2 for tweeters


----------



## 12v Electronics

orakulo said:


> So not a really loud set.
> 
> I was thinking to use bi amplified or 2 for the midbasses and 2 for tweeters


I guess not.


----------



## subwoofery

orakulo said:


> So not a really loud set.
> 
> I was thinking to use bi amplified or 2 for the midbasses and 2 for tweeters


The HAT I6 set has been designed and introduced as an SQ set. If you want SPL, you need to look elsewhere. 

If you want loud, then the CCX65 set from Crescendo Audio is what you need. 

Kelvin


----------



## orakulo

My project is more an SQPL, I don't need a kit that go really low, but has to be loud on mid and high frequencies. After all Ill be using a 1000 rms sub.


----------



## subwoofery

If you want SQL, just use some horns 

Kelvin


----------



## orakulo

subwoofery said:


> If you want SQL, just use some horns
> 
> Kelvin


LOL HAHAHA 

Not that loud


----------



## subiemax

I think they play plenty loud, but I guess thats all relative to your level of hearing loss. I ran 250 watts a side to the mids and they sounded great. I have 120 inmy new car and they also sound good.


----------



## orakulo

250 watts a side on the Imagine?


----------



## 12v Electronics

orakulo said:


> 250 watts a side on the Imagine?


Not with a warranty


----------



## subiemax

Well, the amp had 250 watts. Doesnt mean they were getting that much. Lol. Just watch your gains.


----------



## hottcakes

i've my mids running of a bridged litebox4 rated for ~250 when bridged. considering going to my kenwood that does 2x170 to be a little bit more safe, but it is a kenwood. covering 63-5khz @18 & 12, respectively. another reason i don't want to use the kenwood is because that would require me buying those spade connectors for power and ground which cannot be had for cheap around here.


----------



## orakulo

12v Electronics said:


> Not with a warranty


Gotcha 

I guess I'll give a shot.

It's seems to be by far the best on the price rage.

I had the opportunity to listen the Hertz ESK and I was incredibly surprised that thing blew my mind. And 90% of the users that a heard both say the Imagine is even better.

Recommendations for amps, my budget was around 300, so I tough about the Fosgate T600.4, JBL GTO1004 and Boston Acoustics GT4100.


----------



## adrenalinejunkie

orakulo and everyone else 
, So did ya end up getting the 6.5 imagines? What can you tell us about them and what's your front stage setup... thanks


----------



## aIIan

I see prices have gone up 25%

I'm confused though, most components in a box usually include a crossover but it seems the Imagines do not?

Do you have to rely on an (4ch?) amp to separate the mids/highs?


----------



## subwoofery

aIIan said:


> I see prices have gone up 25%
> 
> I'm confused though, most components in a box usually include a crossover but it seems the Imagines do not?
> 
> Do you have to rely on an (4ch?) amp to separate the mids/highs?


Information on their website on why they did not use a Xover. On their download page in .pdf form... 

Kelvin


----------



## 12v Electronics

aIIan said:


> I see prices have gone up 25%
> 
> I'm confused though, most components in a box usually include a crossover but it seems the Imagines do not?
> 
> Do you have to rely on an (4ch?) amp to separate the mids/highs?


The Imagines do have an internal passive crossover, just not an external box that you may be used to seeing. A full range signal run to them will be fine. Suggested that you cut the lows though depending on the speaker model/ system used in.


----------



## aIIan

Another question, if they were meant to be used as coaxials (better sound) then why call them components and make the tweeter removable.


----------



## 12v Electronics

aIIan said:


> Another question, if they were meant to be used as coaxials (better sound) then why call them components and make the tweeter removable.


----------



## hottcakes

aIIan said:


> Another question, if they were meant to be used as coaxials (better sound) then why call them components and make the tweeter removable.


you ever do your own research? i mean all the questions you asked have definitely been asked before as well as been preemptively answered on the manufacturer's site awaiting questions like yours since Hybrid did take a different approach with the line of speakers. 

basically, the imagine line is touted as what is known as either a convertible or hybrid set since it can go either coax or component mode and is designed to play decently in most cases in either form. check out the downloads section of the hybrid audio site for nearly all the answers to your questions about them. 

or ask questions and wait to get spoonfed by someone. whatever


----------



## aIIan

Well, yeah this is my research. Is that not what a forum is for? Hybrid's website is pretty useless to those of us who don't use pcs or Macs to use the web. All I get on an iPhone Is their generic mission statement with a few Twitter, YouTube and Facebook links?

Thanks for the spoon feeding though. It still doesn't make sense to
me though. Designing a coaxial speaker that can be transformed into a component set at the expense of sound quality.

Sort of like buying a Mustang GT with the option of running it one even cylinders.


----------



## aIIan

12v Electronics said:


>


That's funny, I had a whopper today for the first time in years and bleh :cwm8: never again.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

aIIan said:


> Well, yeah this is my research. Is that not what a forum is for? Hybrid's website is pretty useless to those of us who don't use pcs or Macs to use the web. All I get on an iPhone Is their generic mission statement with a few Twitter, YouTube and Facebook links?
> 
> Thanks for the spoon feeding though. It still doesn't make sense to
> me though. Designing a coaxial speaker that can be transformed into a component set at the expense of sound quality.
> 
> Sort of like buying a Mustang GT with the option of running it one even cylinders.


Can you explain how making a speaker that can be swapped between forms sacrifices sound quality? And you should be able to find all the info on your iphone. My dads iphone sees the site just fine, even has the instruction manuals downloaded onto his phone.


----------



## aIIan

No, I cannot but I read it on this forum so it must be tue!

I'm glad the site works for your dad but it still doesn't make it work on my end.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I have the imagines, and while they are supposed to sound best as a coaxial, they can sound just as good or better if you r willing to take the locations into amount with your install. Im giving my imagine mids 150 watts with a 63hz 24db slope, with no probs, and running the tweeters off a amp that does 2x70 watts, 6300hz and up at a 24db slope.


----------



## adrenalinejunkie

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I have the imagines, and while they are supposed to sound best as a coaxial, they can sound just as good or better if you r willing to take the locations into amount with your install. Im giving my imagine mids 150 watts with a 63hz 24db slope, with no probs, and running the tweeters off a amp that does 2x70 watts, 6300hz and up at a 24db slope.



Whoa that's a decent amount of power. i suppose you have a 2 way active setup?


----------



## ZAKOH

My set of Hybrid Imagine speakers are on the way. All you HAT fan boys be damned if they don't sound significantly better than my current Alpine SPR-17S ;p (actually, yesterday, I was preparing a collection of SQ sound to evaluate the new speakers, and I was just marveling at how pleasantly the Alpines sound IMHO..)

My first step will be to mount them in component setup with tweeters going into door sails. The sail tweeters point at each other, almost. They're sort of rotated into the cabin about 10 degrees. If the I61-2 tweeters sound too harsh/strong, then I will connect the woofer and the tweeter directly to speaker channels on an amplifier and see how it goes after adjusting gains. I will need to insert an appropriate capacitor into the tweeter loop. I'll try to buy a cap just like on the woofer. Would RadioShack have a decent quality capacitor or should I order one from Parts Express?


----------



## ZAKOH

By the way, the HAT Imagines manual says that their sensitivity is 94.5dB at 2.83 volts / 1 meter. That's just insane. I suppose it's the property of paper cones and the fact that there are no resistors or other crossover components to speak of, almost. If this rating is true, these speakers are great to be driven by a low wattage amplifier. I have never seen a speaker with such high sensitivity specifications. My Alpines have 87dB setting (they're notoriously hard to drive). If these sensitivity ratings are correct and the difference of 7.5dB exists even at higher wattage levels, then the HAT Imagines need roughly 2.5 times less power than my Alpines. Right now I have 2x60watt amplifier channels bridged to provide 160watts RMS to drive each side of Alpines.


----------



## 12v Electronics

ZAKOH said:


> My set of Hybrid Imagine speakers are on the way. All you HAT fan boys be damned if they don't sound significantly better than my current Alpine SPR-17S ;p (actually, yesterday, I was preparing a collection of SQ sound to evaluate the new speakers, and I was just marveling at how pleasantly the Alpines sound IMHO..)
> 
> My first step will be to mount them in component setup with tweeters going into door sails. The sail tweeters point at each other, almost. They're sort of rotated into the cabin about 10 degrees. If the I61-2 tweeters sound too harsh/strong, then I will connect the woofer and the tweeter directly to speaker channels on an amplifier and see how it goes after adjusting gains. I will need to insert an appropriate capacitor into the tweeter loop. I'll try to buy a cap just like on the woofer.


I'm not sure if I am reading you wrong or not, but he close tolerance crossover cap that is mounted on the woofer is actually for the tweeter. It does not change the crossover frequency of the woofer at all. Connecting the wires as designed through the internal crossover will do a just fine. By their design they are also perfectly suited for an active design to suit your needs and install perfectly. Please ask away. I am not afraid to spoon feed if necessary


----------



## ZAKOH

12v Electronics said:


> I'm not sure if I am reading you wrong or not, but he close tolerance crossover cap that is mounted on the woofer is actually for the tweeter.


That's right. That's why I need to find a capacitor to insert into tweeter loop if I connect the tweeter into speaker channel on an amplifier.


----------



## trojan fan

aIIan said:


> Another question, if they were meant to be used as coaxials (better sound) then why call them components and make the tweeter removable.


It's called flexibility....since sound quality is subjective, some people may prefer the sound of them ran as components


----------



## 12v Electronics

ZAKOH said:


> That's right. That's why I need to find a capacitor to insert into tweeter loop if I connect the tweeter into speaker channel on an amplifier.


Gotcha! I take it your amp's crossover does not go high enough. Although not recommended for warranty issues you could remove the crossover from the woofer. Or do as many people do and extend the tweeter wires from the woofer terminals. That way there are no warranty issues. Then of course there is the option of finding/building a passive network to do exactly what you want that will suit your installation to you.


----------



## trojan fan

aIIan said:


> Well, yeah this is my research. Is that not what a forum is for? Hybrid's website is pretty useless to those of us who don't use pcs or Macs to use the web. All I get on an iPhone Is their generic mission statement with a few Twitter, YouTube and Facebook links?
> 
> Thanks for the spoon feeding though. It still doesn't make sense to
> me though. Designing a coaxial speaker that can be transformed into a component set at the expense of sound quality.
> 
> Sort of like buying a Mustang GT with the option of running it one even cylinders.


Dude it's not our fault you're short on coin and can't afford a mac or pc:laugh:


----------



## 12v Electronics

trojan fan said:


> Dude it's not our fault you're short on coin and can't afford a mac or pc:laugh:


I'm sure that is a joke, but getting back to his earlier question seriously. 



aIIan said:


> Another question, if they were meant to be used as coaxials (better sound) then why call them components and make the tweeter removable.


I do not speak for Hybrid as I am nothing more than an authorized dealer, but, having been with them as long as we have, you have to understand their "point source" philosophy. Ideally, you want the entire source to come from one location. That should be at ear level at equal distances from your ears to provide a full range sound to the listening position.

Guess what? That don't happen in any car I know of. Call it component, call it coaxial, convertible or just plain magic, building a speaker set for specific use in a car takes some know how. There is no better mind behind It than Scott Buwalda IMO. 

Just my $.07


----------



## ZAKOH

12v Electronics said:


> Gotcha! I take it your amp's crossover does not go high enough.


And which amplifier could go so high?? There aren't that many amplifiers with a high pass filter that's suitable for a tweeter, much less a HAT tweeter. I have read that this and Clarus tweeters need to be crossovered above 5KHz. Most active capable amplifiers have crossovers that simply do not go into that region.


----------



## 12v Electronics

ZAKOH said:


> And which amplifier could go so high?? There aren't that many amplifiers with a high pass filter that's suitable for a tweeter, much less a HAT tweeter. I have read that this and Clarus tweeters need to be crossovered above 5KHz. Most active capable amplifiers have crossovers that simply do not go into that region.


My Zapco DC does


----------



## subwoofery

ZAKOH said:


> And which amplifier could go so high?? There aren't that many amplifiers with a high pass filter that's suitable for a tweeter, much less a HAT tweeter. I have read that this and Clarus tweeters need to be crossovered above 5KHz. Most active capable amplifiers have crossovers that simply do not go into that region.


Actually, there's quite a few amps that can go active with Xover going really high... Soundstream, PPI, Arc, Zed have it around 5kHz. My DLS A7 has a Xover that can go as high as 8kHz on the front HP and as high as 40kHZ  on the rear LP  
Many more can do it too... 

Kelvin


----------



## aIIan

trojan fan said:


> Dude it's not our fault you're short on coin and can't afford a mac or pc:laugh:


Ha ha yeah I've got a Mac, two in fact but sometimes it just isn't worth the hassle to pry the wife and kid from them :mean:

12v thanks for the explanation. If it isn't already obvious I'm a total no0b when it comes to car audio. Once I decide on an amp I'll be sure to call your guys up for a set of the HATs.


----------



## josserman

I was thinking about mounting these to my stock locations, but since my h.u. doesn't have any time adjustments I was thinking about using my old cross-overs from my alpine spx17's where it will give me the option to adjust phase and tw levels. Thoughts?


----------



## subwoofery

josserman said:


> I was thinking about mounting these to my stock locations, but since my h.u. doesn't have any time adjustments I was thinking about using my old cross-overs from my alpine spx17's where it will give me the option to adjust phase and tw levels. Thoughts?


Bad idea... The SPX passive Xover has been designed around the SPX17 drivers. 
Impedance phase, Caps, Resistors, Air Coil Bipolar, Inductors, Notch Filter and other gonzos are going to mess with the phase, freqs and Xover point of your Imagine 6 set. 

Kelvin


----------



## ZAKOH

josserman said:


> I was thinking about mounting these to my stock locations, but since my h.u. doesn't have any time adjustments I was thinking about using my old cross-overs from my alpine spx17's where it will give me the option to adjust phase and tw levels. Thoughts?


I agree with subwoofery. If you want to be able to adjust tweeter levels, connect the woofer and tweeter each directly to an amplifier channel (or head unit speaker wires), with an appropriate capacitor inserted inline into tweeter loop to protect the tweeter from lower frequencies. This will give you effectively a poor man's active setup. I am gonna run my Imagine speakers as is, but if they don't work well, this is what I will do. When you will be able to adjust the levels of each speakers, and also time align all speakers if you have TA. I personally recommend to get a head unit with TA. Flipping phase will not necessarily work as effectively as careful TA tuning.

Hybrid Audio has a white paper on how to do this:


http://www.hybrid-audio.com/White Paper - 2 Way Quasi-Active Crossover System.pdf


----------



## trojan fan

subwoofery said:


> Bad idea... The SPX passive Xover has been designed around the SPX17 drivers.
> Impedance phase, Caps, Resistors, Air Coil Bipolar, Inductors, Notch Filter and other gonzos are going to mess with the phase, freqs and Xover point of your Imagine 6 set.
> 
> Kelvin


x2... the speakers were engineered to run with a simple cap on the tweeters, adding the SPX x-overs would change the sonic signature of the speakers

If anything and depending on your application you could add a L pad to tame the tweeters


----------



## 12v Electronics

I agree with the above. Although not recommended warranty wise, many of my customers have removed the crossover from the woofer and put it inline on a new amp channel. For warranty reasons I cannot suggest this, but some common sense can go a long way. Also, we have never seen a warranty issue with these drivers, but if you proceed with caution you should never need the warranty. 

Just my $.07 

(And some creative wiring can leave the crossovers still attached to the woofers )


----------



## ZAKOH

.................


----------



## ZAKOH

I asked HAT support, and Scott Buwalda replied that the set is using 2.2uF capacitor. Poly cap is advisable. Parts-express.com sells this for $2.64.

(e.g

Dayton PMPC-2.2 2.2uF 250V Precision Audio Capacitor 027-216

I hope that's the right part)

If this is still not satisfactory, I personally would buy a couple more, with higher values to play with crossover point.


----------



## josserman

wow this is very interesting. So if I understand this correctly, the capacitor will protect the tweeters from lower frequency. What I don't understand is how it will lower the db levels and what the effect is of adding more then one per tweeter. Unfortunately my h.u. in this car does not have the adjustment features I am used to in my other car so I am limited to a 3 band eq and faders . I would go fully active but am saving channels 3 and 4 for my sub. I'm thinking I should just try the Imagines as is both in stock form, and separated. If I'm not happy with the sound separated then I will try the capacitors. I'm still a little up in the air on getting these vs. a diy piece together using the alpine cross overs but mostly leaning towards these given such great reviews.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Try them as is first, if your not happy with them, split them and try again. If you split the speakers, you can still use the supplied cap. It wont lower the level however, but as suggested, parts express sells lpads for that, just make sure its for 4 ohms.


----------



## josserman

ok cool sounds like a plan. As it has been warned/expressed, I am a little weary of running them as is with my tweeters all the way on the floor, but I will take peoples advice who are much smarter then me with this.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Actually, they are designed to sound best as coaxial mounted in the doors, for ease of installation. The tweeter is usually a little too loud when mounted as components unless you have a way to control it.


----------



## ZAKOH

josserman said:


> wow this is very interesting. So if I understand this correctly, the capacitor will protect the tweeters from lower frequency. What I don't understand is how it will lower the db levels and what the effect is of adding more then one per tweeter.



You did not read carefully.. what I said is, run tweeter wires directly to the amplifier (preferably) or the head unit speaker channels. Insert the capacitor inline on the positive side of wires. Also connect the woofer to another set of amplifier channels. So you need four amplifier channels for this. This is what's called "bi-amp" setup, with each set of speakers using their own amplifier channels. This won't work necessarily well with all speakers, but HATs have a good chance to work well this way because the woofer runs without crossovers and the tweeter only uses inline capacitor. Once you have this setup running, simply adjust the amplifier gains or the fader control on the head unit to control the tweeters. The only drawback of this setup is that you need to have an extra pair of channels. 


Another, way to controlling tweeters is to run them as they were meant, connecting to the connector on the woofer, and to is to insert an l-pad into their loop. l-pad is a circuit consisting of resistors that's meant to attenuate a speaker. You can scroll down here to see an example:

Crossover Design Chart and Inductance vs. Frequency Calculator(Low-pass)


----------



## trojan fan

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Actually, they are designed to sound best as coaxial mounted in the doors, for ease of installation. The tweeter is usually a little too loud when mounted as components unless you have a way to control it.


use some resistors to tame the output....real simple to do


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

That should work, just wasn't 100% sure. I solved the issue on mine by going active.


----------



## Scott Buwalda

A few random points:

1. The current website gets thrown away on Saturday night at 11:59 PM, and replaced with a considerably better site designed to work with all browsers, and on tablets, iPhone and iPad. All new content, new photography, all new downloads, video, etc. Everything changes Sunday morning at about 3 AM. 

2. Yes, a simple high-quality capacitor CAN adapt, in a very positive way, the frequency repsonse of a tweeter. It's hard to explain via words and no figures, but imagine a normal tweeter's FR plot. It's at +4-5 dB at 8 Khz and 10 Khz. Down a few dB from 12.5 Kz through to 20 KHz. By putting a high crossover point via capacitor, at say 16,000 Hz (serriously, stay with me here), the resultant FR curve is nearly flat, because the capacitor is acting as not only a bandwidth limiter, but also, in a way, a selective filter for those "problem" frequencies (aka, bright treble), below the crossover point. This is what we have done with the I61-2. This is why I often cringe when I hear folks wanting to run active without a system that can effectively run active, if you know what I mean or worse yet, using another brand crossover on the Imagine's. MUCH thought has been given to this working right out of the box. Even down to tweeter phase to mitigate a FR bump between 6 KHz and 8 Khz. As hard as it is to believe, there's a lot more than what meets the eye with a single capacitor.

3. Here's wht we don't incldue a crossover "box." with Imagine. http://hybrid-audio.com/White Paper -Imagine-Series Crossovers.pdf 

4. Here's a direct quote from our Imagine User's manual regarding tweeter level, because too often speakers are blamed for poor in-car performance, when its the installation and speaker's own acoustic signature to blame:

An important learning note! Hybrid Audio Technologies designed the Imagine-series to be used predominantly as a coaxial, as we can effectively mitigate anticipated environmental conditions and reduce the number of variables in this type of installation. When used as a coaxial, the relative amplitudes (volumes) of the midbass and tweeter are equalized to each other and the speaker will perform as intended. There is much less amplitude control of the tweeter amplitude with respect to the midbass amplitude when the set is converted into component set mode. This is due to simple physics. If the midbass drivers are placed low in the door, for example, and the tweeter is placed high in the dashboard, sail panels, or apillars, there WILL be a notable amplitude difference between the two speakers. This is because the midbass are installed further from you, and are likely aimed into your leg, carpeting, and other soft furnishings in the vehicle, while the tweeter is located likely closer to you, likely aimed more “ox-axis”, and is near hard, reflective surfaces, such as window glass, hard plastic interior panels, and etc. In many cases, converting to component set will cause the tweeter to be notably louder than the midbass. This is not a speaker malfunction; it is a simple acoustical phenomenon playing out in your vehicle. Hybrid Audio Technologies usually recommends that the Imagine sets be left as a coaxial, but encourage the end-user to test the Imagine systems in both formats to evaluate what suits the end-user’s listening habits best. Finally, just because there is a factory tweeter pod location in the dashboard, a-pillars, or sail panels in your vehicle doesn’t mean you have to use it! Because our ears are on the left and right sides of the human head, human hearing is much less susceptible to hearing height cues as it is hearing width and depth cues (please reference Lesson 3 and Lesson 4 later in this manual). Please don’t be fooled into thinking that the tweeters MUST be placed high in order to establish a good stage height! Alas, as the end-user, it is up to you to take the time and test the set to see what orientation is to your liking, and certainly, as students of acoustics, we at Hybrid Audio Technologies encourage that learning exercise.


----------



## ZAKOH

By the way, if I place the HAT Imagine tweeter and woofer far apart from each other on my door, can anything be gained from time aligning the tweeter with the corresponding woofer on both sides?


----------



## subwoofery

ZAKOH said:


> By the way, if I place the HAT Imagine tweeter and woofer far apart from each other on my door, can anything be gained from time aligning the tweeter with the corresponding woofer on both sides?


You'll be making sure the phase is perfect between the mids and the tweets. Making for better imaging. 
Now, if I remember correctly the HAT Imagine series has the tweeter X really high (like 6.5khz or something) and hearing phase anomalies that high to the untrained ear is difficult unless really out of phase. Intensity is more important above about 2kHz. 

I wouldn't worry too much about T/A the tweeter unless you go to competitions and need a perfect phase and center image... 

I'm using a quasi-active system (passive between the mids and tweets) in one of my car and don't feel the need to go active - center where it should be and depth slighty beyond the windshield  

Kelvin


----------



## astrochex

ZAKOH said:


> By the way, if I place the HAT Imagine tweeter and woofer far apart from each other on my door, can anything be gained from time aligning the tweeter with the corresponding woofer on both sides?


I have the Imagines in a passive setup. The tweet is roughly 18" above the midbass. Even my rough time alignment greatly improved the imaging.


----------



## 12v Electronics

ZAKOH said:


> By the way, if I place the HAT Imagine tweeter and woofer far apart from each other on my door, can anything be gained from time aligning the tweeter with the corresponding woofer on both sides?


Any speaker combination that is not mechanically "in time" will benefit from time alignment. The problem I usually see is that it is not used correctly and makes matters worse than if was not used at all. Proper placement is always the best choice.


----------



## Scott Buwalda

Well, because of the prescendence effect and head-related transfer fucntion, subwoofery hit the nail on the head---time alignment above 2,000 Hz is rendered virtually useless. It's all amplitude at that point. So what I'd recommend doing is adjusting relative amplitudes between the midbass and tweeter if they are separated by more than, say, 1/4 wavelength at the crossover frequency. You can do time domain adjustment on a tweeter, and it will only really adjust phase with respect to the midbass, which *may* be useful in certain installations, with amplitude being much more of a prominent effect. A much more useful use of time domain adjustment is adjusting for transfer fucntion and group delay between subwoofer(s), midbass, and tweeters. There is a very defined group delay between the three.


----------



## ckk650

Quick question: 

I'm spec'ing a set of 5.25" components for my car (an older BMW 3-series). I've read a lot of good things about the imagines, and they are right at the outer limit of my price range, so I was planning to use them if they fit.

The problem is that the mids are in the kickpanels, way under the dash, firing out from behind a plastic grill (which I would like to keep if possible). I'm pretty sure that running the imagines as a coax will be a poor choice since the tweeter will be firing into my foot from behind a somewhat restrictive and reflective stock grill...

The stock tweeter location if running in component mode is in a pod at the top of the door (behind the side mirror).

Reading the comments above, running the tweeter so far from the mid doesn't seem to be an ideal setup without having some sort of tweeter level control. 

I can't run active, since I have a 2-channel amplifier, so I have no independent gain control to play with.

Would I be better off with a different brand of speaker (focals or DLS are two other choices) that have an adjustable tweeter level in their xover? Or is there a way that I can adjust the tweeter level on the imagines without damaging the frequency response (perhaps using a resistor in series with the tweeter)? If the resistor is a valid solution, any probable values that I should try?

Thanks in advance!
--Carey


----------



## subwoofery

ckk650 said:


> Quick question:
> 
> I'm spec'ing a set of 5.25" components for my car (an older BMW 3-series). I've read a lot of good things about the imagines, and they are right at the outer limit of my price range, so I was planning to use them if they fit.
> 
> The problem is that the mids are in the kickpanels, way under the dash, firing out from behind a plastic grill (which I would like to keep if possible). I'm pretty sure that running the imagines as a coax will be a poor choice since the tweeter will be firing into my foot from behind a somewhat restrictive and reflective stock grill...
> 
> The stock tweeter location if running in component mode is in a pod at the top of the door (behind the side mirror).
> 
> Reading the comments above, running the tweeter so far from the mid doesn't seem to be an ideal setup without having some sort of tweeter level control.
> 
> I can't run active, since I have a 2-channel amplifier, so I have no independent gain control to play with.
> 
> Would I be better off with a different brand of speaker (focals or DLS are two other choices) that have an adjustable tweeter level in their xover? Or is there a way that I can adjust the tweeter level on the imagines without damaging the frequency response (perhaps using a resistor in series with the tweeter)? If the resistor is a valid solution, any probable values that I should try?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> --Carey


Everything in the kick panels wouldn't be a bad idea actually... The Imagine set has been designed to sound better in coax mode. If it fits behind the OEM grill, why not use it as a coax? 
Do you think that you'll be obstructing the sound with your feet? Where do you usually rest your left foot? 

Kelvin


----------



## basher8621

I think the Imagine in the kick would be fine.


----------



## ckk650

subwoofery said:


> Everything in the kick panels wouldn't be a bad idea actually... The Imagine set has been designed to sound better in coax mode. If it fits behind the OEM grill, why not use it as a coax?
> Do you think that you'll be obstructing the sound with your feet? Where do you usually rest your left foot?
> 
> Kelvin


Thanks,

It's a stick, so I will actually rest my foot right there on the dead pedal. From what I understand, it's very space limited if I want to use the stock grills too, although the grills aren't open enough anyway for highs. I can possibly cut the grills and use the HAT grills, but I don't think the wife will like that (it's her car...) I will have to take it apart and see what I'm dealing with this weekend.

Not sure if I can post links, but here's a pic of the kickpanel in an e30.
http://bmw.e30tuner.com/images/my318is/pic/e30audiooverhaul/bmw047.jpg


Thanks,
--C


----------



## subwoofery

ckk650 said:


> Thanks,
> 
> It's a stick, so I will actually rest my foot right there on the dead pedal. From what I understand, it's very space limited if I want to use the stock grills too, although the grills aren't open enough anyway for highs. I can possibly cut the grills and use the HAT grills, but I don't think the wife will like that (it's her car...) I will have to take it apart and see what I'm dealing with this weekend.
> 
> Not sure if I can post links, but here's a pic of the kickpanel in an e30.
> http://bmw.e30tuner.com/images/my318is/pic/e30audiooverhaul/bmw047.jpg
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> --C


From your posted pics... I don't think you'll have too much problem with leg diffractions. Just my opinion here... 
Now you have to measure in order to know if the set fits behind the OEM grill with the tweeters mounted in coax mode. 

Kelvin


----------



## ckk650

subwoofery said:


> From your posted pics... I don't think you'll have too much problem with leg diffractions. Just my opinion here...
> Now you have to measure in order to know if the set fits behind the OEM grill with the tweeters mounted in coax mode.
> 
> Kelvin


Thanks Kelvin,

I checked it out over the weekend. There is enough space in back (~2 3/8" minimum depth), but there is really no space between the sheet metal and the stock grill (maybe 0.25"). The stock midbass drivers barely stick out at all! So regardless of the speakers I buy, I will likely have to cut the kickpanel and use the grills that come with the set. In this case, I can use the tweeter in either orientation.

The question remains whether I can add a minor amount of tweeter level control using a series resistor or not, in case I like the sound better with the tweeter in the high (stock) location.

Doing a bit of research, it seems like I will need to modify the cap value if I just add a resistor in series, but if I do an LPAD type circuit I will not need to do so. Can anyone confirm?

Can I assume the tweeter's nominal impedance is 4 ohms? Does anyone have an opinion on how many dB I would need to attenuate if I use the imagines in a split configuration? Other than listening, how's the best way to determine the mismatch? Laptop with a microphone? Sound meter and test tones?

Thanks in advance!
--Carey


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

The tweeter is 4ohms. Unfortunately, there's no way to tell if it will need to be attenuated or not without trying it first. It may not need any attenuation at all depending on where and how the stock tweeters are.


----------



## meloman2

Maybe dumb question...
How tweeter must be connected to the mid driver - parallel or serial?
Just bought a used set of Imagines...
Thank you


----------



## 12v Electronics

meloman2 said:


> Maybe dumb question...
> How tweeter must be connected to the mid driver - parallel or serial?
> Just bought a used set of Imagines...
> Thank you


There are terminals on the woofer that are designed for the tweeter connection. When connected there the tweeter will be using the on board crossover.


----------



## ckk650

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The tweeter is 4ohms. Unfortunately, there's no way to tell if it will need to be attenuated or not without trying it first. It may not need any attenuation at all depending on where and how the stock tweeters are.


Thanks, that's what I figured. I will build up a 3db lpad, and try it both ways. 

Still have the question about how the experts do system measurement, tho -- is an SPL meter with test tones ok, or do I need some sort of software and a decent microphone connected to my laptop? Any SW recs?

Thanks,
--CK


----------



## 12v Electronics

ckk650 said:


> Thanks, that's what I figured. I will build up a 3db lpad, and try it both ways.
> 
> Still have the question about how the experts do system measurement, tho -- is an SPL meter with test tones ok, or do I need some sort of software and a decent microphone connected to my laptop? Any SW recs?
> 
> Thanks,
> --CK


I use my built in SPL meter


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^lol.


I used my ears, although I'm running a p99 and seperate amps, I just adjusted until it sounded good. I will definately be going back later with a rta to get both sides equal, but for the most part, you can listen to a good set of earphones, then play the same song on the car and adjust that way, for amplitude between speakers at least.


----------



## 12v Electronics

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> ^lol.
> 
> 
> I used my ears, although I'm running a p99 and seperate amps, I just adjusted until it sounded good. I will definately be going back later with a rta to get both sides equal, but for the most part, you can listen to a good set of earphones, then play the same song on the car and adjust that way, for amplitude between speakers at least.


Seriously, I have some good test equipment at my disposal, and basically use it as a reference point. Without getting into a forum wide argument over the usefulness of a RTA, a small change in reference mic position can make or break a speaker attenuation measurement.

The best info I can give you is to try them as-is. If you don't like them go from there. (which usually means going active for ease of trial and error) Many times you will find you not far from the original design IMO


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I agree 100%, ive just never heard it put that way before (the built in spl meter part). I think mostly I'll end up using the rta to get my frequencies centered, and then tune from there, but I think for basic attenuation, the ears are usually the better bet. (assuming your not a basshead)


----------



## DBA42

ckk650 said:


> I checked it out over the weekend. There is enough space in back (~2 3/8" minimum depth), but there is really no space between the sheet metal and the stock grill (maybe 0.25"). The stock midbass drivers barely stick out at all! So regardless of the speakers I buy, I will likely have to cut the kickpanel and use the grills that come with the set. In this case, I can use the tweeter in either orientation.
> 
> The question remains whether I can add a minor amount of tweeter level control using a series resistor or not, in case I like the sound better with the tweeter in the high (stock) location.
> 
> --Carey


I don't know about the tweeter level control, but I installed Imagine 6.5" in co-ax mode in my 2000 4Runner in the stock door locations. The stock tweeters are mounted in the sail panels, but aren't being used. I'm very happy with the tweeter output of the Imagines in co-ax mode and don't have any plans (as of right now) to convert them to component.


----------



## chelecuche

DBA42 said:


> I don't know about the tweeter level control, but I installed Imagine 6.5" in co-ax mode in my 2000 4Runner in the stock door locations. The stock tweeters are mounted in the sail panels, but aren't being used. I'm very happy with the tweeter output of the Imagines in co-ax mode and don't have any plans (as of right now) to convert them to component.


Same here


----------



## NucFusion

Glad to hear you 2 are happy with your imagines in coax mode. I'm pretty much sold on the imagines, but the only thing that has been keeping me from pulling the trigger is the recommendation to run them coax. Its probably the unfounded bias that I've always been told that component splits are superior to coax speakers. Its funny though, because the best sounding system I ever had used coax speakers for the mid/tweets, separate 8 in midbass in the doors and 8 inch subwoofers in the trunk. , I think there is a stigma attached to coax speakers without a complex crossover box that they are cheap and can't possibly sound very good.


----------



## 12v Electronics

NucFusion said:


> Glad to hear you 2 are happy with your imagines in coax mode. I'm pretty much sold on the imagines, but the only thing that has been keeping me from pulling the trigger is the recommendation to run them coax. Its probably the unfounded bias that I've always been told that component splits are superior to coax speakers. Its funny though, because the best sounding system I ever had used coax speakers for the mid/tweets, separate 8 in midbass in the doors and 8 inch subwoofers in the trunk. , I think there is a stigma attached to coax speakers without a complex crossover box that they are cheap and can't possibly sound very good.


It has a lot to do with positioning in your application. If the tweeters are firing directly into your knees as many OEM locations are today, a component set is probably the better choice. But if you can effectively get the speakers point sourced from the same location with minimum obstacles than the coaxial designation means nothing negative. Even preferred.


----------



## sjg5359

Nice, looking at picking up some of these to run as coax.


----------



## ZAKOH

I finally got around to start installing my Imagine speakers in component mode today (after getting the right mounting bracket and all that). I will keep the old Alpine Type-R speaker on the left side and the Imagine speakers on the right side until they break-in, in order to do an A/B comparison.

So far, I had played music on the Imagine speaker for just two hours, so it's too early to do a full review. However, in my opinion the tweeter situation is pretty clear. The tweeter plays louder than the mid! Mind you, I don't think the tweeter sound is "harsh", as some others had described. I have it in door sails, off axis. It's fairly musical, but it's louder than it needs to be. The biggest drawback of having it play so loud is that it helps to screw up the imaging. After having read about how Hybrid Audio has gone out of their way to make sure that the human vocals are primarily played by the mids, I expected not to hear much of vocal cues from the tweeters. However, in reality, there is a lot more vocal information cue coming out of the Imagine tweeters compared to Alpine SPR-17S tweeters. My guess is that the problem is in the shallow crossover slope and the fact that the tweeters play 3 to 6dB louder than they need to. Of course, the break-in just started and this observation preliminary, but I suspect that I will have to go active or use an l-pad in the end to get the best out of these speakers.

I still feel that I made the right choice by buying the HAT Imagines instead of HAT Unity ($100 more expensive) because I can use the saved money to upgrade to more amplifier channels to go active, and I suspect HAT Imagine in active setup may have better results than Unity running passive, but only more time will show.. it's an experiment that will take weeks or months..


----------



## maverickmann

ZAKOH said:


> Just to try to clear up any misconceptions that anyone else reading the tread may have:
> 
> The tweeter plays louder than the mid! The biggest drawback of having it play so loud is that it helps to screw up the imaging.
> 
> You've got to remember that the Imagine series was purposely built to run as a point source (coaxial). Everything that went into the design took into account that these speakers will be mounted in the doors. Hence you will get different outcomes when mounted or used differently.
> 
> 
> I will have to go active or use an l-pad in the end to get the best out of these speakers.
> 
> Also attributed to the initial design. The tweeter was designed to be louder or "hotter" in order to get the needed response when mounted in the doors.
> 
> 
> I still feel that I made the right choice by buying the HAT Imagines instead of HAT Unity ($100 more expensive) because I can use the saved money to upgrade to more amplifier channels to go active, and I suspect HAT Imagine in active setup may have better results than Unity running passive, but only more time will show.. it's an experiment that will take weeks or months..
> 
> Anything is possible. The option to separate the tweeter was included in the Image line for enthusiasts like yourself that would take the time and effort to tweak and tune. I know that you understand that the installation and integration is as, if not more important than the equipment. Vehicle restrictions and requirements as well as implementation will be key.


I've been seriously looking into the entire HAT line to figure what's best for me and my install. I love the way they approach speaker design and can't wait to hear them in person. Good luck with the rest of your install. Look forward to reading more of your impressions.


----------



## BigGeorge

I'm going to threadjack and ask if the Imagine or Unity components would be better suited for installation as a component set?


----------



## DBA42

ZAKOH said:


> I will keep the old Alpine Type-R speaker on the left side and the Imagine speakers on the right side until they break-in, in order to do an A/B comparison.


I did that for a few days with the stock Toyota speaker (Imagine tweeter co-ax & stock tweeter component). Yeah I know, not much of a contest there.



ZAKOH said:


> So far, I had played music on the Imagine speaker for just two hours, so it's too early to do a full review. However, in my opinion the tweeter situation is pretty clear. The tweeter plays louder than the mid!


IIRC the connections to the tweeter can be reversed to attenuate the output.



ZAKOH said:


> Of course, the break-in just started and this observation preliminary...


I noticed a big difference in the Imagines once they had some "break in". Give them some time. 

My setup is Imagine I61-2 coax in the stock door locations, with a Boston G310-4 sub in a .5 cu ft sealed box. Both are driven by a Boston GTA-704 amp (70w x 2 & 250w x 1) It's not much, but its what I wanted - good sound and (relatively) inexpensive.



BigGeorge said:


> I'm going to threadjack and ask if the Imagine or Unity components would be better suited for installation as a component set?


The Imagine are sold as co-ax (but can do component), the Unity as component.


----------



## 12v Electronics

BigGeorge said:


> I'm going to threadjack and ask if the Imagine or Unity components would be better suited for installation as a component set?


In most cases the Unity set is going to be a better choice as a component set. The outboard adjustable crossover being the main reason.


----------



## ZAKOH

DBA42 said:


> My setup is Imagine I61-2 coax in the stock door locations, with a Boston G310-4 sub in a .5 cu ft sealed box. Both are driven by a Boston GTA-704 amp (70w x 2 & 250w x 1) It's not much, but its what I wanted - good sound and (relatively) inexpensive.


I am looking into these amps as well, the 5-channel GTA-1105 to run my Imagines active.. I hope that's enough power.


----------



## DBA42

ZAKOH said:


> I am looking into these amps as well, the 5-channel GTA-1105 to run my Imagines active.. I hope that's enough power.


My Imagines (and the G310) get plenty loud. And that's in a 3rd generation 4Runner.


----------



## ZAKOH

BTW, how much time do Imagine mids take to break in? Maybe my ear is an imprecise measurement device, but they seem about as loud or less loud than my Alpine speakers even though amp gain/volume knob haven't been changed much. I was expecting them to scream at me with the old settings. I feel a little anxious about starting tuning them. Perhaps playing some test tones for a couple of hours will work?


----------



## BigRed

12v Electronics said:


> Seriously, I have some good test equipment at my disposal, and basically use it as a reference point. Without getting into a forum wide argument over the usefulness of a RTA, a small change in reference mic position can make or break a speaker attenuation measurement.
> 
> The best info I can give you is to try them as-is. If you don't like them go from there. (which usually means going active for ease of trial and error) Many times you will find you not far from the original design IMO


Tom, you gonna be at CES?


----------



## 12v Electronics

BigRed said:


> Tom, you gonna be at CES?


Got my badge!


----------



## ZAKOH

By the way, how much mechanical throw does the Imagine woofer allow? I know that xmax 6mm, but usually it takes quite a bit more excursion than xmax to bottom out the driver.

Anyways, I ask because today I did this experiment. I wanted to know how much bass these speakers can take before they bottom out. I was using -18dB bass test tones as well as some bass "music" tracks. On the left side is Alpine Type R SPR-17S. On the right side is I61-2. Both fed with 160watt RMS channels. [email protected] crossover. Given normal music content, and being sent the same amount of power to each side, the Type-Rs produce louder deeper bass on normal music content. Who knows, may be Imagine woofer will get louder with break in. However, once I move the crossover point down to like 30Hz and turn up the volume, it doesn't take long before the Alpines start to bottom out. However, Imagines play bass LOUD without bottoming out. I run out of head unit gain trying to see where they bottom out. For example, the Alpines bottom out playing a 30Hz -18dB bass tone with head unit volume set at 31. (normally, it's at 25 position on music content, and that is already borderline too loud for many people). At this point, right before bottoming out, the Alpine speaker is not that audible. With the Imagines, I can go to up to 35 point position (the maximum) while playing the same tone. I can hear pretty loud and robust bass tone coming out of the Imagine speaker, but no bottoming out sound! Amazing. I suspect, the RMS wattage is underrated. Decouple the tweeter and run them active. Feed the mid +100watt RMS. It will probably shine.


----------



## 12v Electronics

ZAKOH said:


> By the way, how much mechanical throw does the Imagine woofer allow? I know that xmax 6mm, but usually it takes quite a bit more excursion than xmax to bottom out the driver.
> 
> Anyways, I ask because today I did this experiment. I wanted to know how much bass these speakers can take before they bottom out. I was using -18dB bass test tones as well as some bass "music" tracks. On the left side is Alpine Type R SPR-17S. On the right side is I61-2. Both fed with 160watt RMS channels. [email protected] crossover. Given normal music content, and being sent the same amount of power to each side, the Type-Rs produce louder deeper bass on normal music content. Who knows, may be Imagine woofer will get louder with break in. However, once I move the crossover point down to like 30Hz and turn up the volume, it doesn't take long before the Alpines start to bottom out. However, Imagines play bass LOUD without bottoming out. I run out of head unit gain trying to see where they bottom out. For example, the Alpines bottom out playing a 30Hz -18dB bass tone with head unit volume set at 31. (normally, it's at 25 position on music content, and that is already borderline too loud for many people). At this point, right before bottoming out, the Alpine speaker is not that audible. With the Imagines, I can go to up to 35 point position (the maximum) while playing the same tone. I can hear pretty loud and robust bass tone coming out of the Imagine speaker, but no bottoming out sound! Amazing. I suspect, the RMS wattage is underrated. Decouple the tweeter and run them active. Feed the mid +100watt RMS. It will probably shine.


What are you trying to get out of these speakers? Are you really trying to "bottom them out" ? Please don't. I'm begging you.


----------



## subwoofery

ZAKOH said:


> By the way, how much mechanical throw does the Imagine woofer allow? I know that xmax 6mm, but usually it takes quite a bit more excursion than xmax to bottom out the driver.
> 
> Anyways, I ask because today I did this experiment. I wanted to know how much bass these speakers can take before they bottom out. I was using -18dB bass test tones as well as some bass "music" tracks. On the left side is Alpine Type R SPR-17S. On the right side is I61-2. Both fed with 160watt RMS channels. [email protected] crossover. Given normal music content, and being sent the same amount of power to each side, the Type-Rs produce louder deeper bass on normal music content. Who knows, may be Imagine woofer will get louder with break in. However, once I move the crossover point down to like 30Hz and turn up the volume, it doesn't take long before the Alpines start to bottom out. However, Imagines play bass LOUD without bottoming out. I run out of head unit gain trying to see where they bottom out. For example, the Alpines bottom out playing a 30Hz -18dB bass tone with head unit volume set at 31. (normally, it's at 25 position on music content, and that is already borderline too loud for many people). At this point, right before bottoming out, the Alpine speaker is not that audible. With the Imagines, I can go to up to 35 point position (the maximum) while playing the same tone. I can hear pretty loud and robust bass tone coming out of the Imagine speaker, but no bottoming out sound! Amazing. I suspect, the RMS wattage is underrated. Decouple the tweeter and run them active. Feed the mid +100watt RMS. It will probably shine.


Don't know what you're trying to achieve but if you read the manual, the I6 can take 175 rms with a HP set @ 65Hz 

Kelvin


----------



## DBA42

ZAKOH said:


> BTW, how much time do Imagine mids take to break in? Maybe my ear is an imprecise measurement device, but they seem about as loud or less loud than my Alpine speakers even though amp gain/volume knob haven't been changed much. I was expecting them to scream at me with the old settings. I feel a little anxious about starting tuning them. Perhaps playing some test tones for a couple of hours will work?


I've had them installed for about 6 weeks now, and I drive about an hour a day; so I'm guessing about 40 hours or so. I'm using the stock head unit and have kept the treble/mid/bass flat. They definitely have gotten louder since installed. My Boston G310 also has gotten louder since installed.

On the way home from work today I was listening (loudly) to a folk group called Eddie From Ohio (tomorrow it could be Big Audio Dynamite or AC/DC although I'm curious to see how The Civil Wars sound). I heard things in the vocals that I'd never heard before and was blown away by the sound. Give them some time.


----------



## ZAKOH

12v Electronics said:


> What are you trying to get out of these speakers? Are you really trying to "bottom them out" ? Please don't. I'm begging you.



Just looking where their limits are, and curiosity. Given my music tastes, I can see now the Alpines need at very least 70Hz Low pass crossover. HATs it seems could run full range if necessary, not that it's best for SQ.


----------



## alligatorman

Has anyone run these "active" and have x-over freq's to share?

Just bought these and would like to run the mids in the doors and tweets in the a-pillar of my 2011 GMC 3500.

Powered by Arc KS 125.4mini


----------



## south east customz

6k at 18db is what I used.
Sounded pretty damn good


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Running mine at 6.3khz, 24db. The mids im playing with between 63-80hz at 24db.


----------



## abusiveDAD

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Running mine at 6.3khz, 24db. The mids im playing with between 63-80hz at 24db.


i am right there wit ya


----------



## Sean Morrison

70hz highpass at 24db makes me feel confident about not abusing them.


----------



## alligatorman

How many watts!?

Would 80w RMS be enough?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

80 should be fine.


----------



## 12v Electronics

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> 80 should be fine.


+1. 

80-120w is perfect IMO.


----------



## DBA42

I'm running 70 to them and it seems to be plenty.


----------



## ZAKOH

I have 4x60watt RMS channels. I want to try running my Imagine speakers active. Would 60watt RMS be too little for the woofers to handle dynamic peaks well? I don't listen music at ear bleeding levels, but louder than say conversation level.

Another thing I can do is to try to bridge those channels for the woofers, and run tweeters off the Kenwood head unit amplifier (18watts RMS or so) with 2.2uF capacitor. Would it be terrible for SQ? It seems like now, the woofers will be getting plenty of power, but tweets may choke on dynamic peaks?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

My bad, glad someone corrected it. I hadn't seen Scott's post, and assumed the stated 6500hz crossover point meant that's where both tweeter and woofer we're down 3db


----------



## ZAKOH

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> 2.2uf is going to be way to high a crossover point, close to 16000the hz. You need between 6.0-6.2 microfarads.



Scott Buwalda replied to me saying that the stock capacitor, the one on the back of imagines woofers is 2.2uf. I don't want to destroy the stock speaker capabilities, so I ordered dayton 2.2uf capacitors from parts express. 2.2uF actually seems to make sense. According to crossover design web page (Crossover Design Chart and Inductance vs. Frequency Calculator(Low-pass)), 2.2uf capacitor corresponds to 18KHz high pass filter with a 6dB slope. This means that tweeter will be 12dB down at 4.5KHz and 18dB down at 2.25KHz, hopefully becoming relatively inaudible in midrange frequencies. He also posted somewhere here that this value was chosen to cut a peak somewhere in higher frequencies resulting in flatter response in the highs.


----------



## subwoofery

ZAKOH said:


> I have 4x60watt RMS channels. I want to try running my Imagine speakers active. Would 60watt RMS be too little for the woofers to handle dynamic peaks well? I don't listen music at ear bleeding levels, but louder than say conversation level.
> 
> Another thing I can do is to try to bridge those channels for the woofers, and run tweeters off the Kenwood head unit amplifier (18watts RMS or so) with 2.2uF capacitor. Would it be terrible for SQ? It seems like now, the woofers will be getting plenty of power, but tweets may choke on dynamic peaks?


Continuous power handling is 100 watts. If you add a HP, you can put around 150 watts to the set. 
My guess is with dynamic peaks, you will clip the amp depending on the track. Some old tracks have swings of up to 20dB, sometimes even more... 

Kelvin


----------



## trojan fan

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> 2.2uf is going to be way to high a crossover point, close to 16000the hz. You need between 6.0-6.2 microfarads.



Wrong wrong wrong:whip::behead::cwm8::z::bash::smash::rifle:.....:laugh:


----------



## trojan fan

subwoofery said:


> Continuous power handling is 100 watts. If you add a HP, you can put around 150 watts to the set.
> My guess is with dynamic peaks, you will clip the amp depending on the track. Some old tracks have swings of up to 20dB, sometimes even more...
> 
> Kelvin


x2...exactly......more power....more power....just bridge that amp to the speakers and forget the HU thing


----------



## ZAKOH

By the way, what do you all think about using WinISD to model a speaker's power needs? For example, it does not seem totally unreasonable to expect that once driver's excursion exceeds its xmax limit, the sound fidelity drops, and there is no point in driving it beyond that, even if speaker's RMS power handling is say 1kwt.

So I load the Imagine I61-2 woofer T/S paremeters into WinISD. WinISD recommends a vented box but I select sealed box of 2cu ft. I understand that my door is not a sealed box, but this is the best WinISD can do. Next, I switch to signal section and enter 60watts. Then I look at SPL and cone excursion graphs. At 100Hz, SPL is 106dB and excursion is around 6mm. At 70Hz, SPL is approximately 104dB and excursion is 9mm. I believe that's one way. It drops to 8mm if I change box size to 1cu ft. Based on this modeling, it seems like if you want to keep the cone excursion within driver's "SQ range" or just slightly above, then 60watts of clean power is the most you can send to it and the crossover frequency should be no lower than 70Hz. This is based on the assumption that the woofer's one way xmax is 6mm as listed in the pdf manual.

Does any of this make sense to you or have any validity?


----------



## trojan fan

ZAKOH said:


> By the way, what do you all think about using WinISD to model a speaker's power needs? For example, it does not seem totally unreasonable to expect that once driver's excursion exceeds its xmax limit, the sound fidelity drops, and there is no point in driving it beyond that, even if speaker's RMS power handling is say 1kwt.
> 
> So I load the Imagine I61-2 woofer T/S paremeters into WinISD. WinISD recommends a vented box but I select sealed box of 2cu ft. I understand that my door is not a sealed box, but this is the best WinISD can do. Next, I switch to signal section and enter 60watts. Then I look at SPL and cone excursion graphs. At 100Hz, SPL is 106dB and excursion is around 6mm. At 70Hz, SPL is approximately 104dB and excursion is 9mm. I believe that's one way. It drops to 8mm if I change box size to 1cu ft. Based on this modeling, it seems like if you want to keep the cone excursion within driver's "SQ range" or just slightly above, then 60watts of clean power is the most you can send to it and the crossover frequency should be no lower than 70Hz. This is based on the assumption that the woofer's one way xmax is 6mm as listed in the pdf manual.
> 
> Does any of this make sense to you or have any validity?


IMO you are over thinking this, slap them in the doors and give at least 100 watts of clean power and call it a day


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I tested these speakers with my amps crossover, and could give it 125 watts with a 75hz 12db per octave highpass, and it only had problems on the hardest of rap songs. With my P99, and a 63hz 24db high pass, with 125 watts, theres no problems with any music ive played it through. Thats with no box, just very well vented kicks, almost IB.


----------



## RyanM923

I'll be getting my pair in shortly, can't wait to give them a good listen with some of my favorite tracks that I know like the back of my hand. I normally used a 24db slope at 80hz, so I should be able to put a fair amount of power to them...I hope a healthy, old-school 2x200 will be plenty.


----------



## slwt13

I'm new to the forum as I've only come with the intentions of building a system for my work truck. As with all things I'm not versed in, I attempt to find a forum to get the opinions of those who know much more than myself. 

Based on the glowing recommendations of the HAT Imagine speakers, I've ordered two sets of 6.5's, an ARC flatline 12 and two of the PPI Phantoms (900.4 & 1000.1). I can't wait to see what these can really do. I spend a little time on the road and most of that time all that I'm able to enjoy is my music.


----------



## alligatorman

slwt13 said:


> I'm new to the forum as I've only come with the intentions of building a system for my work truck. As with all things I'm not versed in, I attempt to find a forum to get the opinions of those who know much more than myself.
> 
> Based on the glowing recommendations of the HAT Imagine speakers, I've ordered two sets of 6.5's, an ARC flatline 12 and two of the PPI Phantoms (900.4 & 1000.1). I can't wait to see what these can really do. I spend a little time on the road and most of that time all that I'm able to enjoy is my music.


Looks like you made some great choices!

You are one helluva researcher man.

Be sure to let us know your impressions.


----------



## slvrdrgn123

If I were to run this set active off the amp, which amp would be better? Also any other amp suggestions are welcomed.

Soundstream RUB4.600 (rub4600) 600W RMS, Rubicon Series 4-Channel

Hifonics Zeus ZXi150.4 (ZXi 150.4) 4-Channel Car Amplifier/Amp

Precision Power P900.4 (p9004) 4-Channel Phantom Car Amplifier

The PPI and SS has a high pass of only 4khz so I don't think it's high enough for the tweeters. Any thoughts on that? Thanks.


----------



## thomasluke

Precision Power P900.4 (p9004) 4-Channel Phantom Car Amplifier this is the choice i would make. 4000 khz is plenty high for most tweets you could even cross some as low as 2000 or 2500 khz and be just fine.


----------



## 12v Electronics

thomasluke said:


> Precision Power P900.4 (p9004) 4-Channel Phantom Car Amplifier this is the choice i would make. 4000 khz is plenty high for most tweets you could even cross some as low as 2000 or 2500 khz and be just fine.


Wow! 4,000 kHz? Who can even hear that high? 

Seriously, if the amp cannot cross around 6-7 kHz, you don't want it. Use the included passive network instead.


----------



## slvrdrgn123

Would this be a good amp if I use passive?

http://www.amazon.com/Cadence-Acous...1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1321851724&sr=1-1

Cadence XaH175.4


----------



## ZAKOH

^

Damn.. if you consider power/dollar ratio, these Cadence amps seem really cheap. Has anyone done independent specs to confirm the manufacturers numbers? In any case, if the RMS wattage is as claimed, I don't see why this amplifier wouldn't work. I think even 4x60watt RMS amplifier would be plenty. (Right now I am running active with one of these). The only issue with the amp in the link is that it's kind of small heat sink size for the ratted wattage and Class A/B. Be careful if you want to drive it hard on a hot day if say you want to bridge the rear channels for a subwoofer.


----------



## subwoofery

ZAKOH said:


> ^
> 
> Damn.. if you consider power/dollar ratio, these Cadence amps seem really cheap. Has anyone done independent specs to confirm the manufacturers numbers? In any case, if the RMS wattage is as claimed, I don't see why this amplifier wouldn't work. I think even 4x60watt RMS amplifier would be plenty. (Right now I am running active with one of these). *The only issue with the amp in the link is that it's kind of small heat sink size for the ratted wattage and Class A/B*. Be careful if you want to drive it hard on a hot day if say you want to bridge the rear channels for a subwoofer.


If you compare it to this one: 
Brax X4
^ the Cadence is actually underpowered for the available heatsink area  

Kelvin


----------



## ZAKOH

thomasluke said:


> Precision Power P900.4 (p9004) 4-Channel Phantom Car Amplifier this is the choice i would make. 4000 khz is plenty high for most tweets you could even cross some as low as 2000 or 2500 khz and be just fine.


These new PPI amps seem pretty attractive based on pure wattage/dollar ratio. However, I was am suspicious of these once Grizz Archer posted the channel separation spec. Separation @ 1kHz - 32dB seems kind of low, and is lower than any head unit or amp I have used. While I am not expert and I can't comment from personal experience on whether 32dB is significantly worse than 60dB, I have heard claims written by a major car audio web site that they prefer 60dB (add or subtract a little) for a stable stereo image.. and they make a claim that 55dB vs 65dB can make a difference, but significantly above 65dB does not make any audible difference to them. Since I was looking for an amplifier with the most SQ for the least money, skipped these series of amps. I might still buy the mono block though.


And by the way, in case with imagine speakers, you don't need an active crossover to go "active". The woofer can run without a crossover and the tweeter only needs an inline capacitor to act as a high pass filter. The old hybrid audio web site has a pdf on this. The Imagines use 2.2uF capacitor.

The PPI Phantom's active crossover does seems like a nice feature.. there are some tweeter that could run with a 12db crossover at 4,000 KHz or lower.. though the upper boundary of the crossover does seem a little limiting.. For example, it's probably not good for Imagine tweeters. Anyone who's gone active with them seemed to prefer an active crossover with a sharp slope above 5KHz.


----------



## slvrdrgn123

Sounds like the cadence will be a good buy then since most of the reviews on the Xa series are very positive. These XaH series are supposed to be the same but with a better heat sink. Would there be much difference in sound quality between the 80Wx4 and the 110Wx4 version? I'm thinking it's better to just get the higher powered one now just in case I want more power later on. I probably will be running a small 10" sub off the rears for a bit of extra low end.


----------



## adrenalinejunkie

slvrdrgn123 said:


> Sounds like the cadence will be a good buy then since most of the reviews on the Xa series are very positive. These XaH series are supposed to be the same but with a better heat sink. Would there be much difference in sound quality between the 80Wx4 and the 110Wx4 version? I'm thinking it's better to just get the higher powered one now just in case I want more power later on. I probably will be running a small 10" sub off the rears for a bit of extra low end.



It's always best to buy the most power you can afford.


----------



## ZAKOH

Right now I am running my Imagines active powering them with a 5-channel Jensen Power 5500 5-channel amplifier. I don't care what others say about Jensen amps, because it had been very trusty performer to me. No noise, plenty of power (bridged). However, I can see the limitations with "only" 60watts per channel. I have unbridged the speaker channels to run my imagines active, and I had to move the gains from 1/2 to over 2/3 on the woofer channel. I imagine that if my head unit pre-out was lower than 4V then I would have to bump gains even more. Based on this, I would say 60watts RMS power for woofers only or passive is the least amount you want to use for good sq.


----------



## chelecuche

I just got one this his sets and im looking for an amp! And the PPI phantoms amps will be the ones that im gonna be using on my system, They will be running passive with no rear fill! But my question is should i get the p600.2 that is rated 190rms x 2 @ 4ohm?... or that is to much for this set? Or just get the p900.4 that is rated 145 x 4 at 4ohm and just use 2 channels?.... help me decide please!


----------



## 12v Electronics

chelecuche said:


> I just got one this his sets and im looking for an amp! And the PPI phantoms amps will be the ones that im gonna be using on my system, They will be running passive with no rear fill! But my question is should i get the p600.2 that is rated 190rms x 2 @ 4ohm?... or that is to much for this set? Or just get the p900.4 that is rated 145 x 4 at 4ohm and just use 2 channels?.... help me decide please!


190w is too much and honestly so is 145w. Max rated power is 150w. 

Honestly, give it a solid 100w and you will be thrilled. I actually have mine on a 50w Zapco C2k-2.5xp and couldn't be happier.


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## ZAKOH

I just received my MB Quart REF4.80 to drive Imagine speakers active. It's rated for "only" 80watts x 4 RMS, but independent measurements have shown that it provides 110watts RMS into 4ohms, 180 into 2 ohms, and noise level, hamonic distortion, etc, are very low. It scored a lot better than Boston GTA 4-channel, and actually better than any amplifier from that test group. The size is very compact for class A/B amp. You can still pick them for $100-$140 a piece.. I got mine for $100 before shipping. I just couldn't resist the perceived value. It will be a while before I set it up, but I'll report how it goes.


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## Wattser93

You say that 150RMS is too much.

Assuming HPF at 80Hz/12db, what do you think is the max power to run safely to them?


----------



## 12v Electronics

Wattser93 said:


> You say that 150RMS is too much.
> 
> Assuming HPF at 80Hz/12db, what do you think is the max power to run safely to them?


150w


----------



## chelecuche

12v Electronics said:


> 190w is too much and honestly so is 145w. Max rated power is 150w.
> 
> Honestly, give it a solid 100w and you will be thrilled. I actually have mine on a 50w Zapco C2k-2.5xp and couldn't be happier.


Thanks for the input! Well... now i have no idea on what to use my plan was to get 2 of thos ppi one for the HAT and another one for my sub that is rated a 600.... what do you guys think about the jbl gto amps? Im running the gto1004 for my HAT's should i get one of the GTO mono amps too?... or should i just change my whole amp setup....? My budget is $500 for amps....


----------



## ZAKOH

Wattser93 said:


> You say that 150RMS is too much.
> 
> Assuming HPF at 80Hz/12db, what do you think is the max power to run safely to them?


Just set your amplifier gains so that the speakers play at reasonable volume when your head units volume knob is at about 75%. This is my rule of thumb. You can power your speakers with a 500watt RMS amplifier safely with a 50Hz low pass, if you want to do that. It's just kind of waste of good amplifier IMO. Just because your amplifier can send a really strong signal to speakers, it's not like it will do it if you listen music at reasonable volume level.

You can find an approximation to your answer with WinISD. Load your woofer's T/S parameters into driver database and start a project. There is no IB option. Just start the project with a 2cu ft sealed box. Add a 2nd order high pass filter at the frequency you need to use. Switch to excursion plot and keep adding power in the signal section below until the speaker reaches 6mm. This is the speakers one way xmax value. While the speaker excursion stays below this value, it's playing roughly in its "SQ range". It can get louder, but for best SQ you should not aim to go there. 

Now let's try your filter, 80Hz, 2nd order high pass. The speaker excursion reaches 6mm at 75Hz with 70watts of power. At this point, the SPL is above 108 in frequencies above 100Hz. If you were to use the lowest recommended high pass frequency of 65Hz with 18dB slope, then the speaker exceeds its xmax excursion with just below 60watts of power.

Conclusion: 60-70watt of clean power is probably enough, but you can increase this amount, as long as your goal is to better handle dynamic peaks, and not to get louder overall. These results do not seem that sensitive to the sealed box size setting in WinISD (e.g. make it 1cu ft, and these numbers look approximately the same).

By the way, most amplifiers are rated at 14.4volts, but in a car, the amplifier usually does not see this kind of current (it's somewhere below 14.4 but above 12v with engine running). An amplifier with RMS rating of 90-110watts, will get you those 60-70watts RMS in its normal mode of operation in car.


----------



## ZAKOH

By the way, I have already posted once that I tried to find the limits of Imagines drivers to see if they can bottom out while playing some heavy SPL stuff and test tones. They can take big power in stride. While my Alpine Type-Rs would easily bottom out, these just kept going. I stopped from being afraid of damaging the woofer or tweeter thermally. However, as my above post suggests, you probably don't need an amplifier more powerful than 100watts to bring the best out of these speakers, and somewhat lower should work fine also. Of course, if you have 160watts per side, it probably shouldn't hurt as long as gains are used responsibly.

Regarding crossovers, you can set your high pass crossover below the recommended minimum of 65Hz. Except for the hardest rap and such music, I don't think these speaker will bottom out. However, using such low crossover simply does not sound good. I can hear the woofers lose their composure and get harsh and kind of hollow when some stronger drums hit. Below 60Hz it's definitely subwoofer territory. Right now my high pass frequency is at 60Hz, and I might bump it higher once the speakers are fully broken in.


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## lostdaytomorrow

Anyone compared these directly to the pioneer PRS720's? I've run these pioneers for a few years now and they're great, but they won't take all 200w i've got on tap from a kicker zx850.2. Wondering if these imagines would sound just as good and be louder as well.


----------



## subwoofery

lostdaytomorrow said:


> Anyone compared these directly to the pioneer PRS720's? I've run these pioneers for a few years now and they're great, but they won't take all 200w i've got on tap from a kicker zx850.2. Wondering if these imagines would sound just as good and be louder as well.


The Imagine will get much louder of less power than the PRS720 due to its sensitivity: 
89.69dB vs 85.06dB @ 1w/1m 

From the manual, it can take up to 175 watts with the proper HP... 

Kelvin


----------



## RyanM923

I'm only running a rated 80 watts to each side of mine, and they get pretty much as loud as I need them too, but I might need some more power to leave headroom for dynamics at high volumes.


----------



## ZAKOH

200watts RMS power seems a little excessive for most speakers. Based on everything I know, 80-120watts of clean power should be enough. I could adjust gains to run my speakers with 200watt RMS amplifier channel, but I wouldn't go out of my way to buy such an amplifier in the first place, unless I needed to power beefy 8-inch midbasses.


----------



## GavGT

I have a budget of around £200, and have been looking at these, or a used set of Morel Hybrid Ovation 6. Has anyone compared the two? I know there is a fairly huge price difference, buti'm interested to hear opinions on how they would stack up?

Thanks in advance


----------



## trojan fan

How much is that in US dollars......I've installed a few pairs of HATs and never been disappointed


----------



## BigGeorge

Major thread jacking here, has anyone tried or compared those Imagines components to the Unity system?


----------



## 12v Electronics

BigGeorge said:


> Major thread jacking here, has anyone tried or compared those Imagines components to the Unity system?


I have 

The Unity sets are the Imagine mid with the Clarus tweeter and Clarus outboard crossover. Sonically very similar, but the Unity sets usually give you better results and more options as a component set.


----------



## BigGeorge

So, are you saying the sound is the same with greater install flexibility? I would assume the Clarus tweeters are a lot tamer than the Imagines and that they may alleviate the problems of harshness that others were experiencing. 

I've got some Q-logics. Please no comments. Imagines or Unity? Ready to order!!!


----------



## 12v Electronics

BigGeorge said:


> So, are you saying the sound is the same with greater install flexibility? I would assume the Clarus tweeters are a lot tamer than the Imagines and that they may alleviate the problems of harshness that others were experiencing.
> 
> I've got some Q-logics. Please no comments. Imagines or Unity? Ready to order!!!


In my opinion the Imagines when in Coax mode sound really good. Many times when you get them installed as a component set (especially when trying to utilize factory locations that have the mid low in the door and tweeter on the a-pillar firing into your face), the tweeters can start to sound a bit bright. This is where the upgraded tweeter and adjustable passive crossover in the Unity set is going to make the biggest difference. 

But put them on a sound board with them both on axis and they are kind of hard to tell apart. 

That's what I have found anyway.


----------



## trojan fan

12v Electronics said:


> In my opinion the Imagines when in Coax mode sound really good. Many times when you get them installed as a component set (especially when trying to utilize factory locations that have the mid low in the door and tweeter on the a-pillar firing into your face), the tweeters can start to sound a bit bright.



X2...exactly....but with some L pads they can be tamed and sound very nice....this has been my experience with them...GL


----------



## ZAKOH

BigGeorge said:


> So, are you saying the sound is the same with greater install flexibility? I would assume the Clarus tweeters are a lot tamer than the Imagines and that they may alleviate the problems of harshness that others were experiencing.
> 
> I've got some Q-logics. Please no comments. Imagines or Unity? Ready to order!!!


I was facing this choice, and decided to buy Imagines, then spent the remainder of price difference (vs Unity/JL Audio C5s) to buy a better amplifier (more amp channels) so I can bi-amp Imagines instead with an inline capacitor for the tweeter. This results in more complicated install, but gives the flexibility to adjust tweeter levels beyond what's allowed typically by passive crossovers and also to time align tweeters and woofers separately with each other from the head unit. Right now my tweeters are only a little off axis and I wouldn't describe them as aggressive. This depends on tweeter settings though. Overall, I am pretty satisfied. I can see myself going with Legatia speakers in very distant future for my next car.


----------



## ZAKOH

12v Electronics said:


> In my opinion the Imagines when in Coax mode sound really good. Many times when you get them installed as a component set (especially when trying to utilize factory locations that have the mid low in the door and tweeter on the a-pillar firing into your face), the tweeters can start to sound a bit bright. This is where the upgraded tweeter and adjustable passive crossover in the Unity set is going to make the biggest difference.
> 
> But put them on a sound board with them both on axis and they are kind of hard to tell apart.
> 
> That's what I have found anyway.


Have you compared Imagines with Mirus? Would Mirus be a good speaker for rear fill application?


----------



## trojan fan

ZAKOH said:


> Have you compared Imagines with Mirus? Would Mirus be a good speaker for rear fill application?


Yes!...I would think the Mirus speakers would work just fine for rear fill


----------



## 12v Electronics

ZAKOH said:


> Have you compared Imagines with Mirus? Would Mirus be a good speaker for rear fill application?


The first set of Mirus I ever tested were in my Jeep's TJ's sound bar. I got to test this set before they were released (I couldn't test them at work as they were not released for sale yet). Even though the sound bar was above and behind my head I knew they were something special. Not quite the speaker the Imagines are, but as a $149.99 coaxial set, no contest. 

By the way, after some further testing they made it back to my Jeep's sound bar and is where they will stay. Great speakers. A friend of mine even came out and complimented how good the Jeep sounded. He is not a very observant guy, so coming from him that was pretty impressive. The swivel tweeter is a nice touch!


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## ZAKOH

Well, I might buy the Mirus speakers then. I am not very impatient right now, so I can wait until there is a sale going on, etc, specially since I could use a 6x8 speaker which is not available right now. I need to decide how to run my real fill.

Option 1: attenuated, stereo mode (possibly bandpassed)
Option 2: attenuated, mono mode (possibly bandpassed)


----------



## 12v Electronics

ZAKOH said:


> Well, I might buy the Mirus speakers then. I am not very impatient right now, so I can wait until there is a sale going on, etc, specially since I could use a 6x8 speaker which is not available right now. I need to decide how to run my real fill.
> 
> Option 1: attenuated, stereo mode (possibly bandpassed)
> Option 2: attenuated, mono mode (possibly bandpassed)


There is a 5x7 inch in the works and a 5.25", 6,5" and 6x9" available now. No plans for a 6x8"

Sales do not come by that often either, so waiting may not be worth it.


----------



## trojan fan

12v Electronics said:


> The swivel tweeter is a nice touch!


Would also make a nice feature on the Imagine line when ran as coaxials


----------



## subwoofery

trojan fan said:


> Would also make a nice feature on the Imagine line when ran as coaxials


Believe it would cost too much money to have that feature... since the tweeter is removable. 

Kelvin


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## trojan fan

subwoofery said:


> Believe it would cost too much money to have that feature... since the tweeter is removable.
> 
> Kelvin


But I want some ice cream with my cake....:laugh:


----------



## subwoofery

trojan fan said:


> But I want some ice cream with my cake....:laugh:


Ohh... You might have it ; but it's gonna cost you more than $229 for that  

Kelvin


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## BigGeorge

I can tell you guys that this will be my first sets of components. I will be running them passive as I am still learning about car audio and my amp is only two channels. I think for my needs the Unity components maybe be a better option.


----------



## Danometal

I'm considering the Imagines myself for my Boston GTA-704 which came yesterday. I'm a bit disappointed to hear they prefer a coaxial mounting though. I want my sound stage higher than that. 

BTW, I thought they were supposed to be $200, but 12V Electronics has them for $250.


----------



## 12v Electronics

Danometal said:


> I'm considering the Imagines myself for my Boston GTA-704 which came yesterday. I'm a bit disappointed to hear they prefer a coaxial mounting though. I want my sound stage higher than that.
> 
> BTW, I thought they were supposed to be $200, but 12V Electronics has them for $250.


They work well in many component installs. Any speaker that has a fixed crossover has its limitations to install flexibility. And stage height can be achieved with either configuration with the right installation.

When this thread was started (almost 2 years ago) they were $199.99. The current price is $249.99


----------



## Danometal

12v Electronics said:


> They work well in many component installs. Any speaker that has a fixed crossover has its limitations to install flexibility. And stage height can be achieved with either configuration with the right installation.
> 
> When this thread was started (almost 2 years ago) they were $199.99. The current price is $249.99


How well will they work passive, tweeters mounted on the sail panels? I don't want to biamp them with my 4 channel. I would rather bridge it for headroom, and set it to run around 100 watts X 2.


----------



## ZAKOH

Danometal said:


> How well will they work passive, tweeters mounted on the sail panels? I don't want to biamp them with my 4 channel. I would rather bridge it for headroom, and set it to run around 100 watts X 2.


Some people find tweeters to be a little louder than they need to be depending on their location and orientation. I have briefly run one side in passive note. I wouldn't describe the tweeter loud or harsh in that mode, but I thought imaging could be improved if I switched them into bi-amp mode and fine tune levels and time alignment. You can try to run them in passive mode and if you don't like the sound, switch to active. 70watts of power should probably be enough. Based on T/S parameters, if you use 80Hz high pass crossover, then 70-80watts is the most they can handle excursion-wise anyways. Right now my woofer is running off a 60watt Jensen amplifier channels. It's doing well enough that I wonder why I bought a more powerful MB Quart amplifier for the mids.


----------



## Danometal

ZAKOH said:


> Some people find tweeters to be a little louder than they need to be depending on their location and orientation. I have briefly run one side in passive note. I wouldn't describe the tweeter loud or harsh in that mode, but I thought imaging could be improved if I switched them into bi-amp mode and fine tune levels and time alignment. You can try to run them in passive mode and if you don't like the sound, switch to active. 70watts of power should probably be enough. Based on T/S parameters, if you use 80Hz high pass crossover, then 70-80watts is the most they can handle excursion-wise anyways. Right now my woofer is running off a 60watt Jensen amplifier channels. It's doing well enough that I wonder why I bought a more powerful MB Quart amplifier for the mids.


Thanks. Noted.

BTW, I love some of Jensen's products. I recently installed some old Jensen coaxials (that a friend just gave to me that he never installed) in my Nephew's rear doors, and they are AMAZING. I've never heard coaxials kick out the mids like these guys do. Really.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

With normal music with a 75hz 12db highpass, these will handle 125 watts without doing anything funny, ran passively. In fact, I ran a lot of music through them setup like that, on the bench, to see what their limits were and the only song that got the cone to do anything funny was Wiz Khalifa's On My Level, which has very high output low frequencies. Ran actively, with a 63hz 24db highpass, they will take any song I throw at them without the cone doing anything funny, with the same 125 watts. This is all semi-infinite baffle. Kick panel enclosure, with a large hole, about half the size of the cone.


This is Slayer, Spill The Blood, ran passive, with 125 watts, with a 75hz 12db highpass.


----------



## ZAKOH

By the way, is there a consensus on the best way to aim the HAT Imagine tweeters? 

Here is my experience so far. They are in door sails in an older Taurus. The opposite tweeter aims directly at my head. The closest tweeter aims at the head of the passenger. I like this as starting setup, because I hope that being more off-axis will help to mitigate the fact that the left tweeter is so much closer to my head than the opposite tweeter.

How does this sound? The highs are very crisp and detailed. In fact, I would say a little bit too much. Perhaps this is due to some frequencies being too loud. Cymbals and maracas, specially if they're meant to be on the right side of the stage are too .. sterile and detailed. There is also this feeling that their location is _exactly_ where tweeter is. Now, cymbals should be a little in the back no? And maracas sound almost like my passenger is shaking them near the opposite tweeter.

First thing I do is turn down the tweeter level a bit on the amplifier. This has reduced these effects but has not eliminated them. Next, I tried this.. rotate the tweeter just a little forward. Do not overdo this. Wow. Problem fixed! The sound stage is a little more diffuse, a little more distant and without tweeters being localized as easily. Instruments like cymbals and maracas sound more laid back, and more distant, while still having a very good, crispness in them.


----------



## aIIan

My set came in today. I'm a little bummed that there wasn't a manual but, oh well. I guess there's always PDFs, even though they're a bit more awkward to read on the john.

Do you guys recommend breaking them in? I bought myself an XD500/3 for xmas so I've got some time before they actually have to go in the truck.


----------



## MarkG

ZAKOH said:


> ..... Next, I tried this.. rotate the tweeter just a little forward. Do not overdo this. Wow. Problem fixed! The sound stage is a little more diffuse, a little more distant and without tweeters being localized as easily.


What did you do to 'rotate the tweeter just a little forward'? Are you pointing them a little more towards the front of the vehicle? - thanks.


----------



## ZAKOH

More towards aiming at opposite tweeter.


----------



## trojan fan

aIIan said:


> My set came in today. I'm a little bummed that there wasn't a manual but, oh well. I guess there's always PDFs, even though they're a bit more awkward to read on the john..


First send it to the printer than go sit on the throne and enjoy:laugh:


----------



## DBA42

Danometal said:


> How well will they work passive, tweeters mounted on the sail panels? I don't want to biamp them with my 4 channel. I would rather bridge it for headroom, and set it to run around 100 watts X 2.


In my 2000 Toyota 4Runner I'm running Imagines co-ax off channels 1 & 2 on a GTA-704, with channels 3 & 4 bridged to a Boston G310-4 in a .5 cu ft sealed box (100Hz LP/HP filter setting on the 704).


----------



## Danometal

DBA42 said:


> In my 2000 Toyota 4Runner I'm running Imagines co-ax off channels 1 & 2 on a GTA-704, with channels 3 & 4 bridged to a Boston G310-4 in a .5 cu ft sealed box (100Hz LP/HP filter setting on the 704).


I ordered a set of Massive CK6V, but I still wrestle with what ifs concerning the HATs. I'm stoked to see you're running a GTA-704 though. Mine came about a week ago, and I haven't powered it up yet. Can't wait though. It will accompany my GTA-1000m already kicking in the car.


----------



## trojan fan

DBA42 said:


> In my 2000 Toyota 4Runner I'm running Imagines co-ax off channels 1 & 2 on a GTA-704, with channels 3 & 4 bridged to a Boston G310-4 in a .5 cu ft sealed box (100Hz LP/HP filter setting on the 704).


So.....how do they sound


----------



## trojan fan

Danometal said:


> I ordered a set of Massive CK6V, but I still wrestle with what ifs concerning the HATs. I'm stoked to see you're running a GTA-704 though. Mine came about a week ago, and I haven't powered it up yet. Can't wait though. It will accompany my GTA-1000m already kicking in the car.


Hopefully the out come is not a case of buyers remorse


----------



## Danometal

trojan fan said:


> Hopefully the out come is not a case of buyers remorse


Well, if that becomes the case, they'll go up for sale and I'll be aiming towards the HATs. But, most likely scenario is that I'll live with them no matter how they sound. 

$$$ > me


----------



## 12v Electronics

Danometal said:


> I ordered a set of Massive CK6V, but I still wrestle with what ifs concerning the HATs. I'm stoked to see you're running a GTA-704 though. Mine came about a week ago, and I haven't powered it up yet. Can't wait though. It will accompany my GTA-1000m already kicking in the car.


What kind of "what if's" are you worried about? And why did the massives make you feel so sure? 

I gotta know.


----------



## Danometal

12v Electronics said:


> What kind of "what if's" are you worried about? And why did the massives make you feel so sure?
> 
> I gotta know.


What if the Imagines are better...

I went with the Massives after reading a bunch of reviews. I got them from Sonicelectronix for $169 vs. $250 for the Imagines. If they were still $200 like they were earlier this year, I may would've went for it.

Someone named Tonia from HAT corresponded with me on my email, and that was extra cool. I'll remember that.


----------



## DBA42

trojan fan said:


> So.....how do they sound


IMO, pretty amazing. I notice things in old, familiar songs I've never heard before. Especially acoustic stuff. But it's awfully fun to turn it up with some loud rock 'n roll; but I've not done that lately as it's been cold in Colorado.


----------



## ZAKOH

Danometal said:


> What if the Imagines are better...
> 
> I went with the Massives after reading a bunch of reviews. I got them from Sonicelectronix for $169 vs. $250 for the Imagines. If they were still $200 like they were earlier this year, I may would've went for it.


In my opinion, if you compare Massives CK6 vs HAT Imagine, both running in passive crossover setup, the outcome could be ... quite random. This is due to the fact that passive component sets can behave quite unpredictably due to car interiors being so different to each other. The reflective surfaces and their proximity to the drivers, the orientation of tweeters and woofers, their distances from your ears, etc. all of this can matter. Some factory locations that may sound good with HAT Imagine speakers, may not necessarily bring the best out of other speakers.

However, I am 99% certain that HAT's Imagines running in the bi-amp mode that I mentioned the other day will sound better than even more expensive components that are running in passive setup (assume speakers are installed in the usual factory made locations). With Imagines running in bi-amp mode, specially with the head unit you have, you can do two things. First, you can time align all four drivers correctly with each other, something that's not fully possible with passive components, resulting in more stable imaging. Second, you can adjust the relative amplitudes of tweeters with precision beyond what's allowed by a typical crossover box.


----------



## Danometal

ZAKOH said:


> In my opinion, if you compare Massives CK6 vs HAT Imagine, both running in passive crossover setup, the outcome could be ... quite random. This is due to the fact that passive component sets can behave quite unpredictably due to car interiors being so different to each other. The reflective surfaces and their proximity to the drivers, the orientation of tweeters and woofers, their distances from your ears, etc. all of this can matter. Some factory locations that may sound good with HAT Imagine speakers, may not necessarily bring the best out of other speakers.
> 
> However, I am 99% certain that HAT's Imagines running in the bi-amp mode that I mentioned the other day will sound better than even more expensive components that are running in passive setup (assume speakers are installed in the usual factory made locations). With Imagines running in bi-amp mode, specially with the head unit you have, you can do two things. First, you can time align all four drivers correctly with each other, something that's not fully possible with passive components, resulting in more stable imaging. Second, you can adjust the relative amplitudes of tweeters with precision beyond what's allowed by a typical crossover box.


Well, looks like I'm going with HAT. Sonicelectronix emailed me that the Massives are now out of stock, even though I placed my order last Wednesday when they are well in stock. Lame.

But, I JUST got to audition a set of Imagines at a local shop in the lead installer's car. They sound sweet. I think I'm gonna bring them some money tomorrow...


----------



## Danometal

Nevermind. Sonicelectronix is now saying they're on the way. Confused.


----------



## Neeoo

I've been doing some serious research on mids/components for almost 4 months now. I recently settled on a set of HAT Imagines.

I had previously 'fatmatted the inside of my door panels in preparation. I picked a set of I6's yesterday from a local vendor for 215.00 total. So yesterday afternoon I spent building baffles, sealing up the holes adjacent to the speaker hole and mounting my new components. I have an 02 Accord and it already has tweeters in the windshield/dash extremities (which I left alone). Out of the box, these speakers are amazing. I left the tweeters on the mids and put them in the factory speaker locations. Kicked back afterwards and sipped a drink or two and listened to some of my favorite songs. For having 0 break in time, I was amazed. Awesome clarity, I ran through everything from Metallica to Dave Mathews to Evanescence to Digital Underground to NIN. I'm amazed (did I mention that?). Ive got them connected to a Pioneer receiver with only 15w at the moment. I was absolutely sold when I heard the explosion at the end of Comfortably Numb from the Pulse CD. 

Now that Ive found a set of components that blow my mind, on to the running cables, hiding cables, more sound deadening, amp etc...

PS - Just in case your considering these for a Honda, I needed baffles 1" thick to get the magnet off of the window, and needed to shave off the edge that surrounds the factory 'speaker grill' from the back of the door card to get them to fit. You MIGHT be able to go with a 7/8" baffle and not have to shave the edges off of the 'speaker grill'.


----------



## trojan fan

Thanks for your nice little review....please follow up when you have more to add


----------



## Danometal

Neeoo said:


> I've been doing some serious research on mids/components for almost 4 months now. I recently settled on a set of HAT Imagines.
> 
> I had previously 'fatmatted the inside of my door panels in preparation. I picked a set of I6's yesterday from a local vendor for 215.00 total. So yesterday afternoon I spent building baffles, sealing up the holes adjacent to the speaker hole and mounting my new components. I have an 02 Accord and it already has tweeters in the windshield/dash extremities (which I left alone). Out of the box, these speakers are amazing. I left the tweeters on the mids and put them in the factory speaker locations. Kicked back afterwards and sipped a drink or two and listened to some of my favorite songs. For having 0 break in time, I was amazed. Awesome clarity, I ran through everything from Metallica to Dave Mathews to Evanescence to Digital Underground to NIN. I'm amazed (did I mention that?). Ive got them connected to a Pioneer receiver with only 15w at the moment. I was absolutely sold when I heard the explosion at the end of Comfortably Numb from the Pulse CD.
> 
> Now that Ive found a set of components that blow my mind, on to the running cables, hiding cables, more sound deadening, amp etc...
> 
> PS - Just in case your considering these for a Honda, I needed baffles 1" thick to get the magnet off of the window, and needed to shave off the edge that surrounds the factory 'speaker grill' from the back of the door card to get them to fit. You MIGHT be able to go with a 7/8" baffle and not have to shave the edges off of the 'speaker grill'.


Nice. I sat in a guy's car the other day and listed to a set. They do sound lovely. BTW, are your dash tweets unhooked? How is the height of the sound stage with running them coaxially?


----------



## Neeoo

Danometal said:


> Nice. I sat in a guy's car the other day and listed to a set. They do sound lovely. BTW, are your dash tweets unhooked? How is the height of the sound stage with running them coaxially?


Let me preface this by saying that the last time I was involved in car audio, MB Quart and Rockford Fosgate were the creme de la creme. However, I DO play guitar regularly and I am intimately familiar with all the creaks and squeaks and rings of acoustic/electric guitars. So I had to use my familiarity with 'live' guitar to contrast the level of accuracy from these speakers. 

I did not unhook my dash tweets. I have the HATs connected via factory wiring to my Pioneer FH-P8000BT which is listed as 15w (the spec sheet for the hats recommends 20+ w). Given these conditions, the sound stage is right at the level of my head. I'm sure the dash tweets reflecting off the windshield is a huge factor though. I ultimately am undecided whether I will unhook them once I get an amp, testing will have to determine that.

Which begs a question to those more experience here; Will it harm my head unit to be driving the HATS (mid + tweet) + the factory tweet? I assume that it is seeing somewhere between 2 and 4 ohms. Any input?


----------



## ZAKOH

IMHO.. mixing factory tweeters with another component set is a wrong way of running speakers. You now have four sources of treble frequencies placed in four different locations. I am sure that HAT Imagine speakers were designed to provide a good frequency response without aid of additional tweeters. If you want to use the factory tweeter, at very least, I would have disconnected the HAT tweeter cables from the speaker (that's easy, without necessarily removing it from the speaker). Ideally though, I'd disconnect the factory tweeter, and listened to HAT speakers this way. The HAT Imagine tweeter could be left mounted coaxially. If the stage height doesn't drop, leave it like that. If it drops, consider converting to components, and moving the tweeter up. One problem I noticed about the HAT tweeter is that it's diameter is a little bigger than most aftermarket tweeters. It would not fit in a hole that was good enough for Alpine Type-R, Seas Neo, and the Ford factory tweeters. I had to non-reversibly modify my car's tweeter pod by cutting off a little material along the circumference.

You may notice an improvement with time. The tweeters will settle a little, and bass sensitivity should go up a little. Adding an amplifier should definitely improve the sound. 50-60watts should be great. Running in active mode, the woofers can handle >100watts. One thing you can also try, if you don't have the ability to time align your drivers, is to flip the phase of one side. Try it for just the woofer as well as the woofer with the tweeter. In my car, without time alignment and without flipping the speaker phase, human voices sound like they're out of phase, but when I play a recording that's purposefully recorded out of phase, they sound normal to me.


----------



## trojan fan

ZAKOH said:


> IMHO.. mixing factory tweeters with another component set is a wrong way of running speakers. You now have four sources of treble frequencies placed in four different locations. I am sure that HAT Imagine speakers were designed to provide a good frequency response without aid of additional tweeters. If you want to use the factory tweeter, at very least, I would have disconnected the HAT tweeter cables from the speaker (that's easy, without necessarily removing it from the speaker). Ideally though, I'd disconnect the factory tweeter, and listened to HAT speakers this way. The HAT Imagine tweeter could be left mounted coaxially. If the stage height doesn't drop, leave it like that. If it drops, consider converting to components, and moving the tweeter up. One problem I noticed about the HAT tweeter is that it's diameter is a little bigger than most aftermarket tweeters. It would not fit in a hole that was good enough for Alpine Type-R, Seas Neo, and the Ford factory tweeters. I had to non-reversibly modify my car's tweeter pod by cutting off a little material along the circumference.
> 
> You may notice an improvement with time. The tweeters will settle a little, and bass sensitivity should go up a little. Adding an amplifier should definitely improve the sound. 50-60watts should be great. Running in active mode, the woofers can handle >100watts. One thing you can also try, if you don't have the ability to time align your drivers, is to flip the phase of one side. Try it for just the woofer as well as the woofer with the tweeter. In my car, without time alignment and without flipping the speaker phase, human voices sound like they're out of phase, but when I play a recording that's purposefully recorded out of phase, they sound normal to me.


....and I thought I was on to something.....WTF it's back to the drawing board.....


----------



## trojan fan

Neeoo said:


> Which begs a question to those more experience here; Will it harm my head unit to be driving the HATS (mid + tweet) + the factory tweet? I assume that it is seeing somewhere between 2 and 4 ohms. Any input?


In relationship to the frequency your speakers are playing at the HU will be fine....rock on


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## Neeoo

ZAKOH said:


> Ideally though, I'd disconnect the factory tweeter, and listened to HAT speakers this way. The HAT Imagine tweeter could be left mounted coaxially. If the stage height doesn't drop, leave it like that.
> 
> Try it for just the woofer as well as the woofer with the tweeter. In my car, without time alignment and without flipping the speaker phase, human voices sound like they're out of phase, but when I play a recording that's purposefully recorded out of phase, they sound normal to me.


Thank you. Im gonna do some 'sperimenting today and see how disconnecting the factory tweeters sounds. As far as out of phase, Im positive that they are wired correctly electrically. How would phase inversion? occur?



trojan fan said:


> In relationship to the frequency your speakers are playing at the HU will be fine....rock on


Thank you!


----------



## ZAKOH

Neeoo said:


> Thank you. Im gonna do some 'sperimenting today and see how disconnecting the factory tweeters sounds. As far as out of phase, Im positive that they are wired correctly electrically. How would phase inversion? occur?


I admit that I am not 100% sure how to do phase inversion with Imagine speakers because they do not have a traditional crossover box. In a typical passive setup, to flip the phase of say a tweeter, you just swap the positive and negative tweeter wires at the crossover box. If you're running active, the wire swap occurs at the amplifier outs for speakers.

For the HAT Imagine tweeters, you would have to swap their polarity at the place where they connect to the woofer. But those connectors are purposefully made so that you can't swap tweeter polarity by accident. Swapping the polarity of the woofer but not tweeter seems to be accomplished by swapping the polarity of the woofer's connection to the amplifier, and also the polarity of the tweeter connection to the woofer. If you don't do the last step, then the entire side changes polarity.

Download the IASCA cd track where a female voice says "I am in phase now, my voice should be centered, blalah" and later "I am out of phase now". If the part where she says "I am out of phase now" sounds better than the first part, it's a tell-tale sign that swapping polarity of at least one driver on one side can improve imaging.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...rs/33740-simple-way-tune-courtesy-cmusic.html


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## aIIan

Finally got to unwrap mine this weekend and put them in my doors yesterday. 

I initially planned to run them as coaxials but after installing them and putting my doors back together I was disappointed to hear some major nastiness from the left side. Took the door back apart and inspected the speaker. Turns out the little cylinder the tweeter was mounted on was a little crooked and the woofer was rubbing up against it upon excursion. Drilled some holes in my sail panels and ran the wires and everything was a-ok.

Overall I am very happy with my purchase. I'm sure I will be even more impressed once I seal up my doors.

I just hope I didn't damage them when they were scraping


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

You should be ok. My dad overtightened the crap out of his, and caused the frame to warp, and the cone was rubbing on the phase plug. I loosened the bolts to release the tension, and it settled back in and seem to be ok.


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## Danometal

I can't help but wonder why HAT went for plastic baskets...


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

The plastic is probably less resonant than a stamped steel frame, and they probably felt it was more important to spend on the soft parts, while keeping frame costs down to keep the price reasonable.


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## Danometal

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The plastic is probably less resonant than a stamped steel frame, and they probably felt it was more important to spend on the soft parts, while keeping frame costs down to keep the price reasonable.


I find $250 for a set of speakers (that admittedly performs best as a coaxial because it has no Xovers) to be knocking on the door of unreasonable. They do sound good though.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

The speakers do have a crossover, that's what the capacitor on the frame of the speaker is for. If your talking about a separate crossover box, can you explain why it needs one?

The reason they work best as coaxials is strictly install based. They were designed as coaxial first. The reason many complain about the tweeters being too hot is they were primarily designed to be located with the midbass, off axis. If you install the tweeter in a stock location that is closer to your ears than the midbass is, it may be too loud. I found, before going active, that placing the tweeters off axis, helps significantly. Add that to reviews that state these compare to speakers costing up to $400, and I would say its reasonable.


----------



## Danometal

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The speakers do have a crossover, that's what the capacitor on the frame of the speaker is for. If your talking about a separate crossover box, can you explain why it needs one?
> 
> The reason they work best as coaxials is strictly install based. They were designed as coaxial first. The reason many complain about the tweeters being too hot is they were primarily designed to be located with the midbass, off axis. If you install the tweeter in a stock location that is closer to your ears than the midbass is, it may be too loud. I found, before going active, that placing the tweeters off axis, helps significantly. Add that to reviews that state these compare to speakers costing up to $400, and I would say its reasonable.


Yes, I meant a crossover box, which slopes at 12 dbs/octave or even 18 dbs/octave - vs. 6 dbs of the capacitor (not as optimal mounted separately). I do like that the woofer rolls off in the event there is no bandpass capability present.

But, you said it best as to why I believe (IMO) the Imagines approach unreasonable for $250; they were "primarily designed to be located with the midbass, off axis." 

So, maybe if they could somehow mount an attenuation switch on the capacitor circuit, like an L-Pad or something, I would like the design better. I haven't installed my Massive CK6V set that I bought over the HATs (admittedly a leap of blind faith), but I've read their tweeters are likewise hot, but they're $169 vs. $250. I just ordered an external active Xover to deal with that before I even install them though, because I want one anyway for all the flexibility it affords.

Another complaint from hearing the HATs in person is that I heard them crossed at 100 hz. I asked the guy if he could switch it to 80 real quick so I could listen. He did, but they suffered a bit from that it seemed. And, yea, the tweeters were mounted in the sails ran passively, so I noticed they were hot, but they did sound good enough still, but not $250 good enough (IMO) for my requirements. I want door raping midbass.

I bet the HATs are most excellent ran active though. I would love to hear that!


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## will_b1989

How would you compare these to ID CTX's? Anyone have any experience with either of these?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Im definitely going to guess that they suffered from install issues at 80hz. I've ran then with 125the watts, at 75hzthe at a 12db slope, and never had problems. Of course, mine being mounted to fiberglass concrete and steel enclosures, that eliminated install as a factor in midbass output. With 24db slopes available to me now, I ran them at 63hz unless I really feel the need to abuse my ears.


----------



## Danometal

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Im definitely going to guess that they suffered from install issues at 80hz. I've ran then with 125the watts, at 75hzthe at a 12db slope, and never had problems. Of course, mine being mounted to fiberglass concrete and steel enclosures, that eliminated install as a factor in midbass output. With 24db slopes available to me now, I ran them at 63hz unless I really feel the need to abuse my ears.


Wow! You're definitely not kidding around! 

Yea, I'm not sure as to the level of deadening/sealing in the IB door install I heard. Nice sounding speakers overall nonetheless.


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## ZAKOH

Danometal said:


> I find $250 for a set of speakers (that admittedly performs best as a coaxial because it has no Xovers) to be knocking on the door of unreasonable. They do sound good though.


I think a better way of viewing these speakers is as a set of nice raw drivers (specially the woofers) to run active. The Imagine woofers have some unique features. They have good power handling, very nice bass, and also very good upper mid-range extension. So good, they don't need a crossover and the tweeters only need to play treble. Compare to a typical 6.5 speaker that pretty much requires a low pass crossover at 2-4KHz, with a sharp slope. The HATs also can take some serious beating. Where other speakers (I tried Alpines, Pioneers) can bottom out and give up, these just keep going. In lieu of these features, I think the price is justified. These woofers can command a little premium over other speakers. You're effectively getting a slice of Legatia speaker performance (new woofers alone being sold for >$490 right now), at about half of their price.

Having said this, I could also nitpick and whine that the HAT company should have used perhaps a 2nd order filter on the tweeter and added a switch for tweeter attenuation instead of asking for $100 more for that, but in the end I am still happy with these speakers as is.. Perhaps this was done for technical reasons or perhaps to create a market niche.. I don't know.. but the bottom line is I think that paying $200 for a couple of nice woofers seems justified. (and the other $50 pays for the tweeters I suppose).

I do want to say that it's unfortunate that everyone on this forum likes to recommend these speakers mostly to people looking for passive components. That's not their best application. HAT Unity or some other, may be even cheaper speakers would have worked better for this application.


----------



## ZAKOH

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Add that to reviews that state these compare to speakers costing up to $400, and I would say its reasonable.


Audio equipment reviews always make me smile because it seems like every other reviewer likes to state that the piece of equipment he owns is a good as something that costs twice as much.

I think $400 comparison is a little exaggerated. Maybe they are compared to $400 speakers, but always favorably? There certainly exist _overpriced_ $400 speakers.. but they should not be used as the benchmark. I don't know, maybe these were the prices that were prevalent a year ago, but right now you can buy online JL Audio C5 components (sometimes compared to Imagines) for $300. The Imagines cost only $50 less, and with crossover not being optimized for component use I'd say they're priced just about right. And at around $400 you can find locally something like Focal Polyglass V30 speakers, which according to most reviews are very nice and better than C5s, with even more configurable crossovers.

But in the end, spending $250 on the HAT Imagines, and $100-$150 more on having two more amplifier channels to run them active should produce better results than the $400 speaker running passive in a typical install. That's my humble view.. That's why I bought them.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Agreed on comparing prices not being totally fair, just reiterating what's been said in the past.

My personal view, after listening to several well set up vehicles, including some state and national championship winning vehicles with 2-5 times as much spent on audio than my own car, is that the only handicap I have vs these cars is my tuning experience. I in no way think these speakers are preventing me from having one of the best sounding vehicles in maybe the state. I also will say that the only reason I plan to upgrade from the imagine midbasses is to move to a larger midbass and move to a 3 way setup. I may still use an imagine 5.25 for a large format midrange in the dash.


----------



## Neeoo

ZAKOH said:


> IMHO.. mixing factory tweeters with another component set is a wrong way of running speakers. You now have four sources of treble frequencies placed in four different locations. I am sure that HAT Imagine speakers were designed to provide a good frequency response without aid of additional tweeters. If you want to use the factory tweeter, at very least, I would have disconnected the HAT tweeter cables from the speaker (that's easy, without necessarily removing it from the speaker). Ideally though, I'd disconnect the factory tweeter, and listened to HAT speakers this way. The HAT Imagine tweeter could be left mounted coaxially. If the stage height doesn't drop, leave it like that. If it drops, consider converting to components, and moving the tweeter up. One problem I noticed about the HAT tweeter is that it's diameter is a little bigger than most aftermarket tweeters. It would not fit in a hole that was good enough for Alpine Type-R, Seas Neo, and the Ford factory tweeters. I had to non-reversibly modify my car's tweeter pod by cutting off a little material along the circumference.
> 
> You may notice an improvement with time. The tweeters will settle a little, and bass sensitivity should go up a little. Adding an amplifier should definitely improve the sound. 50-60watts should be great. Running in active mode, the woofers can handle >100watts. One thing you can also try, if you don't have the ability to time align your drivers, is to flip the phase of one side. Try it for just the woofer as well as the woofer with the tweeter. In my car, without time alignment and without flipping the speaker phase, human voices sound like they're out of phase, but when I play a recording that's purposefully recorded out of phase, they sound normal to me.


Just a little update - I finally got my old OLD phoenix gold SA 5 channel amp (35x4) driving my imagines. Like others have said, even that small amount of power lit this speakers up like there was a pillow on them before. I was letting a friend check out their sound the other day and even though he KNEW that I had my dash tweeters disconnected, he was still leaning around calling me a liar. These things sound phenomenal. I've also noticed that my left leg doesnt change the way the drivers side comp sounds, no matter where I put it. Im very very impressed.


----------



## Scott Buwalda

Thanks for the great feedback Neeoo!!


----------



## joshchrans

I am about to pull the trigger on these, without ever hearing them.

I have a 95 BMW, and will mount them co-ax in the kickpanels. They will have a VERY small sealed enclosure.. Less than .1cuft.

I have a JL 450/4v2 amplifier (150x2 + 75x2), and would like to run them active.

Would this be ok, or is it too much? What would you recommend for a crossover point / slope?


----------



## 12v Electronics

joshchrans said:


> I am about to pull the trigger on these, without ever hearing them.
> 
> I have a 95 BMW, and will mount them co-ax in the kickpanels. They will have a VERY small sealed enclosure.. Less than .1cuft.
> 
> I have a JL 450/4v2 amplifier (150x2 + 75x2), and would like to run them active.
> 
> Would this be ok, or is it too much? What would you recommend for a crossover point / slope?


What model BMW? If it is an E36 you have much more airspace than you think. Just seal up the front face as well as the wiring holes and you are done. In coax mode I highly suggest running them with the included passive crossovers. If you have to go active, somewhere around 5500 hz should be good. But I don't think you will be gaining anything by doing that.


----------



## adrenalinejunkie

joshchrans said:


> I am about to pull the trigger on these, without ever hearing them.
> 
> I have a 95 BMW, and will mount them co-ax in the kickpanels. They will have a VERY small sealed enclosure.. Less than .1cuft.
> 
> I have a JL 450/4v2 amplifier (150x2 + 75x2), and would like to run them active.
> 
> Would this be ok, or is it too much? What would you recommend for a crossover point / slope?



That's a great amp, if I were you'd i'd play with the drivers passivly and "Active" an see what is best for you.


----------



## joshchrans

Thanks for the replies! Its an e34 540I.

Well, if you recommend passive, would I be ok running the 75x2 channels to the HAT's, saving the 150X2 to bridge to a sub (this would save me the addtl cost of a sub amp)?

I have the opportunity to buy a 500/1 & 10w7 for $400 from a friend.

Maybe I should just forget this combo and find a cheaper sub, and get one of those "Luke boxes"... 

Thoughts?


----------



## 12v Electronics

joshchrans said:


> Thanks for the replies! Its an e34 540I.
> 
> Well, if you recommend passive, would I be ok running the 75x2 channels to the HAT's, saving the 150X2 to bridge to a sub (this would save me the addtl cost of a sub amp)?
> 
> I have the opportunity to buy a 500/1 & 10w7 for $400 from a friend.
> 
> Maybe I should just forget this combo and find a cheaper sub, and get one of those "Luke boxes"...
> 
> Thoughts?


The E34 kick panel area is also vented into the inner frame of the car like the E36. That environment is perfect for the Imagines. 75x2 will be fine for them too. 

It sounds like you could get great performance and save you an amp by going passive. I think you will be very happy with that setup.


----------



## rockytophigh

I bought them without hearing them too. Customer for life right here. I bought front & rear sets and I'm OVERLY pleased. Running them off a Zuki Hybrid 5 channel. They were literally pop 'em in and play.


----------



## AuralSalvation

will_b1989 said:


> How would you compare these to ID CTX's? Anyone have any experience with either of these?


I'd like to know this as well. I'm really impressed with my CTX65's, curious how they compare to the HATs.


----------



## ZAKOH

Just noticed that only I61-2V2 is sold online, for $300. Does anyone know what has changed since I61-2?


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## cnut334

I too saw the price increase and wondered what had changed. The entire line has gone up in price though.


----------



## avanti1960

ZAKOH said:


> Just noticed that only I61-2V2 is sold online, for $300. Does anyone know what has changed since I61-2?


Sound is identical to I6-2. The changes include upgrades to improve reliability in harsh abusive conditions (high vibration levels and amps pushed to clipping, e.g. your average Harley). Metal pole piece and added metal washer and strain relief.


----------



## 12v Electronics

avanti1960 said:


> Sound is identical to I6-2. The changes include upgrades to improve reliability in harsh abusive conditions (high vibration levels and amps pushed to clipping, e.g. your average Harley). Metal pole piece and added metal washer and strain relief.


Exactly. Plus there was an annual price increase in June. 

Sonically the same.


----------



## ZAKOH

I see. So the metal pole piece should improve cooling of the voice coil? I was kind of disappointed when I saw that my set came with the cosmetic plastic piece. The speakers work great though. I have about 80 watts of Class A/B power running to them.


----------



## RyanM923

I'm running my 2x225 MRV-1507 to mine and they can scream, let me tell you. I forgot how nice it is to have a lot of headroom.


----------



## ZAKOH

Hybrid Experts,

Right now I am running Imagine speakers in bi-amp mode, with a 2.2uF capacitor for tweeter's high pass network and woofer with no low pass filter. I will be changing head unit to active capable Pioneer DEH-80PRS. Would you advise to remove the capacitor and use the head unit's active crossovers? Also, since the woofers were designed to roll off "naturally" at high frequencies, do they need to have an active low pass filter enabled? For now I am leaning towards leaving everything as is and not using head unit's active crossover, except for subwoofer/mid-woofer integration.


----------



## miniSQ

ZAKOH said:


> Hybrid Experts,
> 
> Right now I am running Imagine speakers in bi-amp mode, with a 2.2uF capacitor for tweeter's high pass network and woofer with no low pass filter. I will be changing head unit to active capable Pioneer DEH-80PRS. Would you advise to remove the capacitor and use the head unit's active crossovers? Also, since the woofers were designed to roll off "naturally" at high frequencies, do they need to have an active low pass filter enabled? For now I am leaning towards leaving everything as is and not using head unit's active crossover, except for subwoofer/mid-woofer integration.


i think i read where others have tried going active on these and determined they sounded better as is. (at least the woofer...)


----------



## trojan fan

ZAKOH said:


> Hybrid Experts,
> 
> Right now I am running Imagine speakers in bi-amp mode, with a 2.2uF capacitor for tweeter's high pass network and woofer with no low pass filter. I will be changing head unit to active capable Pioneer DEH-80PRS. Would you advise to remove the capacitor and use the head unit's active crossovers? Also, since the woofers were designed to roll off "naturally" at high frequencies, do they need to have an active low pass filter enabled? For now I am leaning towards leaving everything as is and not using head unit's active crossover, except for subwoofer/mid-woofer integration.


Why **** with a good thing, if it ain't broke don't fix it


----------



## Scott Buwalda

The capacitor would not be needed if you went active. You will however need a polymeric temperature coefficient device (thermal resettable circuit breaker) to protect the tweeters. Hybrid Audio no longer warranties tweeters run "active" without proof of a PTC network being used. We sell these now, as well.

The woofer really doesn't need a low pass. If you *must* use one, cross it over very high, such as 6,500 Hz.


----------



## hirino

wow i always figured the imagine to be entry level i see i was wrong .


----------



## 1990tsi

So I picked up a set of these yesterday, and read all 15 pages here, and now i have some questions

crossovers. I have an active setup from my amp (polk D5000.5) and after reading the recomended x-over settings I'm not sure what to do.

My slopes are set at 12db and my mid bandpass runs from 40hz - 4000hz and the tweeter highpass tops out at 4000hz.

I figure i'll just use highpass for the mids, no lowpass(bandpass) but where to set it with a 12db slope? i read 63hz but that was with a must steeper slope, with 12db i should be higher?

Now the tweeters. everything I read says that 4khz @ 12db is waaaay too low for the tweeter to play. do I need the 2.2uf capacitor and run the amp full range? Noob question here, how will the cap be wired into the circuit? does it matter if it's on the + or - wire?

Thanks for any suggestions


----------



## subwoofery

1990tsi said:


> So I picked up a set of these yesterday, and read all 15 pages here, and now i have some questions
> 
> crossovers. I have an active setup from my amp (polk D5000.5) and after reading the recomended x-over settings I'm not sure what to do.
> 
> My slopes are set at 12db and my mid bandpass runs from 40hz - 4000hz and the tweeter highpass tops out at 4000hz.
> 
> I figure i'll just use highpass for the mids, no lowpass(bandpass) but where to set it with a 12db slope? i read 63hz but that was with a must steeper slope, with 12db i should be higher?
> 
> Now the tweeters. everything I read says that 4khz @ 12db is waaaay too low for the tweeter to play. do I need the 2.2uf capacitor and run the amp full range? Noob question here, how will the cap be wired into the circuit? does it matter if it's on the + or - wire?
> 
> Thanks for any suggestions


_i'll just use highpass for the mids, no lowpass(bandpass) 
do I need the 2.2uf capacitor and run the amp full range?_ 
Why do you need to go active? Using the set passive sounds like it's going to work well since you don't have the necessary Xovers... 

And yes, 4kHz @ 12dB is too low for the tweeter... I remember Scott saying that he used a cap for the tweeter to set the Xover (6dB/oct slope) very high in order to tame the steep peak around the 12kHz range... 

Regarding your highpass setting on the midrange, with 70 watts, I recommend no lower than 80Hz @ 12dB/oct slope. 

Kelvin


----------



## 1990tsi

The reason I wanted to go active, is I was already wired for it. I popped my PPI 5440 5 channel and replaced it with this amazing polk amp, and it had active capabilities so i tried it. I was running my stock mids 80-4000 and Focal TNA tweets 4000+ (sounds weird but it's what I had at the time) it sounded okay but the tweets were typical Focal harshness that i used to love as a kid mixed with stock chevy mids that after seeing a frequency graph I all of a sudden needed to replace.

So that brought me to the imagines, active, tweeters in the a-pillar (the active nature was going to be great to att the tweets a bit as they are closer to my ears than the mids(read the online manual!)) Plus the extra headroom is always good!


but here we are after 8 hours of installation and I'm happy.

I took your advice and re-wired to passive, lots of respect to scott for all his hard work on these!

I am running them in seperate mode, mostly because it's what i'm used to, and have had best results with it. So... I do what i want! The tweeters were an easy replacement and sound amazing. They sound so much more natural than the Focal TNA tweets I had (and really used to like) and they blend with the mids a lot better, go figure.

Now the mids. I'm not sure where I stand on these. I'm sure most of it is install as i ran out of daylight and didn't get to isolate the speaker from the door or 'adapter plate' i had to make out of 2 peices of 3/4mdf, so it's speaker screwed into mdf screwed into mdf screwed to the door panel with no matting on that part of the door.

I did mat the entire outter door skin then fibreglassed panels for the 2 massive gaping holes in the door panel and matted 50% of it
before matting









But I have waaay too much bass now. waay too much. enough that it doesn't sound right. 
I'm hoping that it's an install issue and i'll find out on tuesday when I pull it apart again, but the bass coming from the front doors seems to fight the sub (and I even turned the crossover up) I read that i would have more bass, but it almost seems like too much. and if turned up just a little bit higher than i should with a new speaker it sounds like i'm hurting it.

The gain on the amp is set to 0 and the LC2i is 1/4 way up. head unit is almost flat, just -3 bass


----------



## ZAKOH

After doing some A/B comparisons, I do think now that bi-amp using a 2.2uF capacitor is a BAD idea for HAT Imagines with tweeters installed in car's sail panels. I have been using this for 10 months. Honestly, despite the ability to level match the tweeters by the means of amplifier gain, the upper midrange still sounds pretty harsh with these speakers. I normally like to listen music at "above conversation level" volume, and peaks in female vocals and some instruments can be ear piercing. For example, the piano in Pat Coil just ahead from the old IASCA competition CD can become pretty harsh in some places. I thought the problem was with the midrange woofer. I was already having thoughts of checking out some other woofer, like JL Audio C5. After I did some A/B tests now that I have an active head unit, and I think now it was the tweeter issue.

Right now I use Pioneer DEH-80PRS active crossover. The tweeter crossover was set at 6.3KHz at 6dB (I use 6dB slope on the head unit for cumulative 12dB slope because that 2.2uF capacitor is still installed). The difference is night and day. I can crank the volume without ear fatigue.

To 1990tsi I would recommend to install the 2.2uF capacitor, and then also enable Polk's active high pass crossover at the maximum allowable frequency. I think this has the potential to produce good results. If you're not happy after this, I'd recommend to buy a set of used HAT Unity or Clarus crossovers. A lot of people go active with these speakers and don't need their passive crossovers. If you ask around on classified section, I think you could get them cheap.


----------



## subwoofery

1990tsi said:


> Now the mids. I'm not sure where I stand on these. I'm sure most of it is install as i ran out of daylight and didn't get to isolate the speaker from the door or 'adapter plate' i had to make out of 2 peices of 3/4mdf, so it's speaker screwed into mdf screwed into mdf screwed to the door panel with no matting on that part of the door.
> 
> I did mat the entire outter door skin then fibreglassed panels for the 2 massive gaping holes in the door panel and matted 50% of it
> before matting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I have waaay too much bass now. waay too much. enough that it doesn't sound right.
> I'm hoping that it's an install issue and i'll find out on tuesday when I pull it apart again, but the bass coming from the front doors seems to fight the sub (and I even turned the crossover up) I read that i would have more bass, but it almost seems like too much. and if turned up just a little bit higher than i should with a new speaker it sounds like i'm hurting it.
> 
> The gain on the amp is set to 0 and the LC2i is 1/4 way up. head unit is almost flat, just -3 bass


Way too much bass is usually a good thing 

We need a bit more info about your system in order to help you: 
- do you use a bass boost? If yes, settings? 
- what kind of enclosure? Tuning? Xover? Slope? Which sub? 
- did you try to reverse the polarity of your subwoofer? 
- did you try to disconnect the subwoofer in order to see if it's your HAT 6.5" that requires adjustments or your sub? 
- do you have an processor or an EQ? Which frequencies can you adjust? 
- download some test tones (20Hz to about 250Hz) and play them through your system in order to see which frequencies are much louder than the next... take notes

Kelvin


----------



## tokapaho

This whole tread caused me open up my wallet for the 6.5's. They will be replacing a pair of Polk MM5251 components. I always felt the Polk's were lacking in the bottom so the upgrade to 6.5's alone will be a great improvement. I'm going to separate the tweeter from the woofer and run these as a component set. My main concern is the tweeter. How good is the off-axis compared to the on. The Polk's are dead on from the passenger side where they are mounted close to the side view mirror in my F150 but lacking in response from driver side from about 12.5k and up. I know that that isn't much up there but ambience, but I like the feeling of space. Any suggestions or recommendations upon the install?

On a side note: Not many manufacturers can brag about participating on forum levels. Having Scott here was a big sale pitch to me. 

Thanks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 12v Electronics

1990tsi said:


> So I picked up a set of these yesterday, and read all 15 pages here, and now i have some questions
> 
> crossovers. I have an active setup from my amp (polk D5000.5) and after reading the recomended x-over settings I'm not sure what to do.
> 
> My slopes are set at 12db and my mid bandpass runs from 40hz - 4000hz and the tweeter highpass tops out at 4000hz.
> 
> I figure i'll just use highpass for the mids, no lowpass(bandpass) but where to set it with a 12db slope? i read 63hz but that was with a must steeper slope, with 12db i should be higher?
> 
> Now the tweeters. everything I read says that 4khz @ 12db is waaaay too low for the tweeter to play. do I need the 2.2uf capacitor and run the amp full range? Noob question here, how will the cap be wired into the circuit? does it matter if it's on the + or - wire?
> 
> Thanks for any suggestions


Just to clarify, There are capacitors mounted on the speakers so you will not nedd to buy any more. 



1990tsi said:


> The reason I wanted to go active, is I was already wired for it. I popped my PPI 5440 5 channel and replaced it with this amazing polk amp, and it had active capabilities so i tried it. I was running my stock mids 80-4000 and Focal TNA tweets 4000+ (sounds weird but it's what I had at the time) it sounded okay but the tweets were typical Focal harshness that i used to love as a kid mixed with stock chevy mids that after seeing a frequency graph I all of a sudden needed to replace.
> 
> So that brought me to the imagines, active, tweeters in the a-pillar (the active nature was going to be great to att the tweets a bit as they are closer to my ears than the mids(read the online manual!)) Plus the extra headroom is always good!
> 
> 
> but here we are after 8 hours of installation and I'm happy.
> 
> I took your advice and re-wired to passive, lots of respect to scott for all his hard work on these!
> 
> I am running them in seperate mode, mostly because it's what i'm used to, and have had best results with it. So... I do what i want! The tweeters were an easy replacement and sound amazing. They sound so much more natural than the Focal TNA tweets I had (and really used to like) and they blend with the mids a lot better, go figure.
> 
> Now the mids. I'm not sure where I stand on these. I'm sure most of it is install as i ran out of daylight and didn't get to isolate the speaker from the door or 'adapter plate' i had to make out of 2 peices of 3/4mdf, so it's speaker screwed into mdf screwed into mdf screwed to the door panel with no matting on that part of the door.
> 
> I did mat the entire outter door skin then fibreglassed panels for the 2 massive gaping holes in the door panel and matted 50% of it
> before matting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I have waaay too much bass now. waay too much. enough that it doesn't sound right.
> I'm hoping that it's an install issue and i'll find out on tuesday when I pull it apart again, but the bass coming from the front doors seems to fight the sub (and I even turned the crossover up) I read that i would have more bass, but it almost seems like too much. and if turned up just a little bit higher than i should with a new speaker it sounds like i'm hurting it.
> 
> The gain on the amp is set to 0 and the LC2i is 1/4 way up. head unit is almost flat, just -3 bass


I would hold off on doing too many tuning changes until you get your door mount/deadening done. If you find that they still have too much bass for your tastes you can play with the crossover on your amp a bit too. 



tokapaho said:


> This whole tread caused me open up my wallet for the 6.5's. They will be replacing a pair of Polk MM5251 components. I always felt the Polk's were lacking in the bottom so the upgrade to 6.5's alone will be a great improvement. I'm going to separate the tweeter from the woofer and run these as a component set. My main concern is the tweeter. How good is the off-axis compared to the on. The Polk's are dead on from the passenger side where they are mounted close to the side view mirror in my F150 but lacking in response from driver side from about 12.5k and up. I know that that isn't much up there but ambience, but I like the feeling of space. Any suggestions or recommendations upon the install?
> 
> On a side note: Not many manufacturers can brag about participating on forum levels. Having Scott here was a big sale pitch to me.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They will have better response on axis but I think you will be very happy with them.


----------



## 1990tsi

subwoofery said:


> Way too much bass is usually a good thing
> 
> We need a bit more info about your system in order to help you:
> - do you use a bass boost? If yes, settings?
> - what kind of enclosure? Tuning? Xover? Slope? Which sub?
> - did you try to reverse the polarity of your subwoofer?
> - did you try to disconnect the subwoofer in order to see if it's your HAT 6.5" that requires adjustments or your sub?
> - do you have an processor or an EQ? Which frequencies can you adjust?
> - download some test tones (20Hz to about 250Hz) and play them through your system in order to see which frequencies are much louder than the next... take notes
> 
> Kelvin


I have the LC2i which does have a bass restoration setting to fight what chevy's stock head unit does, i'll have to play with that. everything on the head unit is flat
I have a Polk SR10 in a prefab ported box that was never a problem, and today i unhooked it and just played the front speakers, finding the front doors to sound like what i've heard an 8" sub do. maybe this is something i'm just not used to, but it sounds like they're playing too hard. 

No processor or eq ..yet.. so all i have is bass mid and treble on the head unit. 

I'll take your advice again and use the test tones i have from an old bass cd i bought to see where the problem is. I should be able to tell how low the fronts are playing that way right? with the sub unhooked


----------



## subwoofery

1990tsi said:


> I have the LC2i which does have a bass restoration setting to fight what chevy's stock head unit does, i'll have to play with that. everything on the head unit is flat
> I have a Polk SR10 in a prefab ported box that was never a problem, and today i unhooked it and just played the front speakers, finding the front doors to sound like what i've heard an 8" sub do. maybe this is something i'm just not used to, but it sounds like they're playing too hard.
> 
> No processor or eq ..yet.. so all i have is bass mid and treble on the head unit.
> 
> I'll take your advice again and use the test tones i have from an old bass cd i bought to see where the problem is. I should be able to tell how low the fronts are playing that way right? with the sub unhooked


Not familiar with the LC2i but maybe you can lower it a little, I really don't know for sure... 

Regarding the test tones, I was actually thinking about the subwoofer first... There's usually a peak in the response around 40Hz-50Hz in most cars, and since your HAT I6 has the ability to play lower midbass freqs effortlessly, you might have exagerated response in the 40Hz-80Hz 
Suggest you do the test tone thing (no need to have it loud, just enough that you can accurately hear the difference between tones) + 
#1 reverse the polarity of your subwoofer and listen again to your system, does it sound thin on the midbass or stronger? 
#2 when #1 is done, I suggest you lower your subwoofer's LP crossover to 40Hz (since you have a 12dB/oct slope) - if you don't have enough output, you can up the gain level up to what you need from your system... I suggested 40Hz but you might like 50Hz better... 

An EQ can really help, especially to clean the 125Hz-250Hz range but that's another story for another thread  

Kelvin


----------



## ZAKOH

Maybe I am a bass head or my door treatment is not enough, but I didn't find the Imagines to be that strong on midbass. Midbass is tight and melodic, but there is just enough of it to integrate with the subwoofer. 60Hz crossover frequency between the subwoofer and these speakers will not always result in sufficient kick drum punch, the kind you hear and feel. I have the option to use 50Hz, 63Hz, or 80Hz. 80Hz sounds better to my ear. They're still quite usable with 60Hz high pass with 24dB (as recommended in the PDF manual) if you need less pronounced midbass. You can also try something like high pass the speakers at 60Hz and low pass the subwoofer at 80Hz. This would require a more careful setup as there is more potential for mismatched acoustic phase to reduce output at overlapping frequencies.


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## avanti1960

My Imagine 6.5s had too much bass as well- I lowered the level of the driver 3db and still had a curve that sloped from +22 db @ 100 Hz to flat @ 500 Hz with flat EQ. Once dialed in they more than met my expectations for a midbass upgrade.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

80hz definitely stresses these things less. I tried 63hz, and the response dropped like a rock by 63hz. It wasn't a deadening issue, these were playing IB with a concrete, steel, and fiberglass baffle, in the kick panels. Literally, the kick panels weighed 20 pounds. Remember, at 63hz, you're playing these things significantly below FS. Even at 80hz/24db, these can be bottomed with 125 watts depending on the music.


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## subwoofery

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> 80hz definitely stresses these things less. I tried 63hz, and the response dropped like a rock by 63hz. It wasn't a deadening issue, these were playing IB with a concrete, steel, and fiberglass baffle, in the kick panels. Literally, the kick panels weighed 20 pounds. Remember, at 63hz, you're playing these things significantly below FS. Even at 80hz/24db, these can be bottomed with 125 watts depending on the music.


Depends if you have v1 or v2  

v1 had an FS of 61Hz (75Hz for v2) 
From the old manual, 175 watts with recommended minimum crossover of 65Hz 

If I had to guess, _1990tsi_ has second generation (v2)

Kelvin


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Forgot about the differences between V1 and V2, still, the 65hz FS of the V1's is too close to a 63hz crossover. I have the V1's, and 175 watts with a 63hz/24db HP only works with non challenging material.


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## tokapaho

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> 175 watts with a 63hz/24db HP only works with non challenging material.


"Only" 115db from the front sounding more than enough for me. I don't think I would eve play that loud. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

They wont hit 115db at 175 watts. Power compression will prevent that, remember these are thermally rated at 35 watts with pink noise. They wouldn't play clean at those kind of volumes either. The manual states linear xmax is 6mm one way, but in truth thats about the mechanical limits of the speaker. The L6SE is claimed to have 9mm of one way xmax, bit the Klippel shows that it reaches 10% distortion by 3.2mm. Im sure the significantly lower priced Imagines do less than that.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I forgot to mention. According to winisd pro, it would be impossible to get more than 107db out of these at anything from 100hz and down in a sealed or ib application. It would be at mechanical xmax at 100hz at 107db.


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## trojan fan

subwoofery said:


> Depends if you have v1 or v2
> 
> v1 had an FS of 61Hz (75Hz for v2)
> From the old manual, 175 watts with recommended minimum crossover of 65Hz
> 
> If I had to guess, _1990tsi_ has second generation (v2)
> 
> Kelvin


Interesting , because the only change from v1 to v2 was a hardware up grade....other than that, it's the same speaker set


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Sorry Kelvin, you were right, old fs was 61hz. I have both the old manual and new manual on my phone, and if they are to be trusted, V1 is a very different speaker from V2. BL is up 20% on the V2, cms on the V2 is half of the V1, vas is doubled on the V1, fs is as Kelvin stated, qts, qms, and qes are all very close, and even the sd shows a change with the V2 showing a tiny bit more, even though the motor on the V2 shows 0.5mm larger in diameter.

These are pretty big changes. V1 wants 1.05 cubic feet for a f3 of 76hz, while V2 wants .54 cubic feet for a f3 of 95hz, both boxes at .707 for the qtc. Makes sense why the boxes i built for my garage with my V1's dont measure as they modeled, i used the V2 specs, which puts my boxes at a qtc of .82.


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## subwoofery

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Sorry Kelvin, you were right, old fs was 61hz. I have both the old manual and new manual on my phone, and if they are to be trusted, V1 is a very different speaker from V2. BL is up 20% on the V2, cms on the V2 is half of the V1, vas is doubled on the V1, fs is as Kelvin stated, qts, qms, and qes are all very close, and even the sd shows a change with the V2 showing a tiny bit more, even though the motor on the V2 shows 0.5mm larger in diameter.
> 
> These are pretty big changes. V1 wants 1.05 cubic feet for a f3 of 76hz, while V2 wants .54 cubic feet for a f3 of 95hz, both boxes at .707 for the qtc. Makes sense why the boxes i built for my garage with my V1's dont measure as they modeled, i used the V2 specs, which puts my boxes at a qtc of .82.


Yep, I thought they only changed the phase plug and changed it to metal for a better heat control but I guess they made a complete revision of the driver. 
Did you ever post results regarding your push-pull manifold? I think it was you who tried that... 

Kelvin


----------



## tokapaho

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> They wont hit 115db at 175 watts. Power compression will prevent that


So what would be the point of feeding them mor than lets say 100 wps?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Kelvin, that's I had thought too. With Scott recently saying that they used to use HiVi, and they now use someone else for a build house, I wonder if those changes might coincide with the V1-V2 changes. Oddly enough, the thermal capacity of the V2's seem to be less than that of the V1's.

I actually haven't finished the manifold yet. Had a lot of things come up recently, both personally and financially. I have everything I need to do it, and hopefully things will have settled down enough to work on it this weekend. I won't be able to post anything objective until the next time I meet up with George since I'll be using his Omnimic to get objective results, but I'll definitely get some pictures and subjective results up as soon as its done. 


Tokapaho, simple answer is I wouldn't run more than that. There's no advantage that I can see from giving them more power than that that isn't offset by the need for a steep HP filter higher than 80hz. I was running about 125 watts to them, and dead honest, it was plenty loud enough for most people. It was almost loud enough for me, they were stressing too hard in the midbass range for me. I was running a 80hz/24db HP through a P99, and cutting the sub at 63hz/24db. With my car, it worked out nice, although it's different for each car. With well recorded "sound quality" music with lots of dynamic range, they'd probably be fine. But I listen to a ton of different types of music, including metal, some rap, and some edm, and to play those at loud volumes just puts them too far over their thermal limits for my tastes. (especially since an mistake, partially on my fault, partially on a local shop, burned the coils on them).


----------



## Scott Buwalda

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Kelvin, that's I had thought too. With Scott recently saying that they used to use HiVi, and they now use someone else for a build house, I wonder if those changes might coincide with the V1-V2 changes.


No. Purely coincidental.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ok, just made me curious.


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## trojan fan

subwoofery said:


> Yep, I thought they only changed the phase plug and changed it to metal for a better heat control but I guess they made a complete revision of the driver.
> Did you ever post results regarding your push-pull manifold? I think it was you who tried that...
> 
> Kelvin


Hey woofery, why don't you ring Scott up and get some clarification on the difference between the v1 and v2, then report back...thanks


----------



## subwoofery

trojan fan said:


> Hey woofery, why don't you ring Scott up and get some clarification on the difference between the v1 and v2, then report back...thanks


I could try to call but it would cost less money to send an e-mail  
Remember, I live in Tahiti  

I'm just gonna ask Scott to reply on this thread since this is about the I61-2 set. 

So, *^ Scott ^*, could you please tell us why the change in parameters? 
I know v1 and v2 are supposed to sound pretty much the same - heard something that made you feel the need to tweak the v1 set? 

Kelvin


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

From everything i looked at and modeled yesturday, mostly seems that the V2 works in a smaller enclosure if you choose to enclose them, the V1 digs about 20hz lower (at a lower maximum output if you run them that low as xmax hasnt changed), and has more thermal capacity.


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## Scott Buwalda

The differences are small. I'll try and reply later, but we pack for Indy today and the IASCA championships this weekend. I have to go to the airport to pick up my mate from Trinidad as well. So, no promises, but I'll try.

There were obvious mechanical changes and minor T/S parameter changes.


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## subwoofery

We'll be here waiting for the answer  Thanks Scott 

Best of luck to the whole team and enjoy yourselves, 
Kelvin


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## Scott Buwalda

I need to keep this very brief, please pardon me. 

The moving mass was something I made a play with, and is an important component to the ability of this driver to play in a door, even with a slightly lower Qts. The corresponding change was to Fs, which is slightly higher. The thermal component did improve with the addition of the medal pole piece verses plastic. Xmax remained the same. With cabin gain and an ultra good seal on the door, you could conceivably cross at 63 Hz at 24 dB/;octave with rational listening habits.  80 Hz would be a bit more conservative.


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## 1990tsi

So I thought I would update, been listening for almost a week now and things are looking up! I had a fellow member that i work with have a listen, and we set all my levels and crossover settings with the sub unhooked, then did the sub, and the small tweaks made a huge difference! my crossover isn't labelled well, just 40 at 8 o clock and 400 at 4 o clock, so i had them playing too low. 

I also pulled the door panel off and found a few installation errors I made, which will be fixed this weekend, should be able to lower the crossover a little bit after


----------



## Shinju

I have mine at 45hz @ 24db on 130+ rms, these are the gen one series. My doors are pretty well sealed as I can get them with out some serious modifications.

They dig nice and deep, before I had a substage running anyone that rode with me could have sworn there was as sub in the car !


For the price point they cannot be beat hell even higher end competitor speakers have a hard time keeping up.

Love these comps I would only upgrade to a L6SE when and if I needed too. 

I think when Scott sat in my xB he had no idea what HAT speakers I was running and was suprised when I told him they were the Imagine 6.5's.

Great Product will buy again!


----------



## alligatorman

I pulled the imagines out from the rear doors of my truck and put them in my 240sx with a 200x2rms pioneer amp. (Dont worry I have the clarus in the front!)

Well im glad i did...i changed out a pair of pioneer ts-d720 comps that needed way too much eq and had no bass. Albeit running on a 50x2rms amp...they are ok speakers at low volume but I would get fatigued at any fun volume levels.

The imagines are so much more powerful and have a nice midrange that is easy on the ears. I put the eq to flat and just turned it up until my ears started ringing and my neighbours came over to join the party.

HAT rocks!

Sent from my cellular using Tapatalk 2


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## RyanM923

I'm running my 6.5's with a 24db slope at 80hz, and I couldn't bottom them out if I tried, when listening to my usual Zep/Pink Floyd/TCV material. I also used a 63hz point for a while with no bottoming issues. This is running IB in a non-sealed door.


----------



## avanti1960

Has anyone tried to run these in the door with a port?

The reason I ask is that when i really really sealed my doors the sound became overly bassy and peaky, definitely too much bass and lost some quality in certain frequencies, especially the 100 Hz or so peaks- just boomy as heck.

So i modeled them on a certain site and the results were that the imagine woofers are better suited to a ported enclosue! Yielding an F3 of 75Hz with a huge port. Modeling them in s sealed enclosure approximating door volume yielded an F3 of 95 Hz! 

I may just have to cut a big hole in all the deadening and sealing i installed. 

Anyone?


----------



## StylinLP38

I pulled the trigger and ordered the HyBrid Audio Unity 2way componant set to be installed by a certified dealer. I got these based on what you all said in this thread. Im crossing my fingers. Going to run them with a brand new Phoenix Gold 300.4 amp.

What wasn't mentioned in this thread was how well these speakers do with acoustic and vocals. Since thats the majority of my music from the 70's. Thats what concerns me the most. How do these reproduce voicals compared to Rainbow, Dynaudio or Morels?


----------



## joshchrans

you will not be dissapointed.


----------



## 12v Electronics

StylinLP38 said:


> I pulled the trigger and ordered the HyBrid Audio Unity 2way componant set to be installed by a certified dealer. I got these based on what you all said in this thread. Im crossing my fingers. Going to run them with a brand new Phoenix Gold 300.4 amp.
> 
> What wasn't mentioned in this thread was how well these speakers do with acoustic and vocals. Since thats the majority of my music from the 70's. Thats what concerns me the most. How do these reproduce voicals compared to Rainbow, Dynaudio or Morels?


Installed correctly, there will be no coloration and very accurate sound reproduction. You should not need to ask a speaker what kind of music it likes. That being said, spend some time installing any speaker as good as possible and you will be rewarded with good results. Especially these ones.


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## avanti1960

in other words, ask not what a speaker can do for you, but ask, what can you do for a speaker?


----------



## avanti1960

avanti1960 said:


> Has anyone tried to run these in the door with a port?
> 
> The reason I ask is that when i really really sealed my doors the sound became overly bassy and peaky, definitely too much bass and lost some quality in certain frequencies, especially the 100 Hz or so peaks- just boomy as heck.
> 
> So i modeled them on a certain site and the results were that the imagine woofers are better suited to a ported enclosue! Yielding an F3 of 75Hz with a huge port. Modeling them in s sealed enclosure approximating door volume yielded an F3 of 95 Hz!
> 
> I may just have to cut a big hole in all the deadening and sealing i installed.
> 
> Anyone?


i recommend that you do not try to cut a hole to vent these into your interior but try this trick- remove one portion of the stiffening plastic you covered the door openings with- then re-cover directly over the hole using only the sound deader, about (3) layers. this will act as a great IB but still allow some breathing room because of the flexibility in the deadening material so that the speaker does not sound like it is confined in too small of an enclosure.


----------



## 12v Electronics

avanti1960 said:


> in other words, ask not what a speaker can do for you, but ask, what can you do for a speaker?


Sounds like a good analogy


----------



## KSpan

Bought my Imagine 6.5s way back in May but didn't install because I wanted to knock out speaker and amp install in one shot... finally snagged an Alpine PDX-V9 yesterday, so the time is drawing near. My JVC head unit hasw actually made the Subaru stock drivers in stock locations sound pretty dang good for what they are, so I'm excited to hear everything installed and upgraded. Will be running Memphis coaxials (my current favorite drivers) in the rear for a bit of fill.


----------



## legend94

One thing that bothers me about this set is apparently the tweeters have next to no resell value out of this set for 299 but you can't buy the mids separate. When you do and try and resell the tweets scott will **** in your thread and not come back and follow up.


----------



## adrenalinejunkie

legend94 said:


> One thing that bothers me about this set is apparently the tweeters have next to no resell value out of this set for 299 but you can't buy the mids separate. When you do and try and resell the tweets scott will **** in your thread and not come back and follow up.



Probably not worth shipping. $80 is given for the Clarus tweeters in HAT's trade-in program.


----------



## rockytophigh

I've got a question. I have the Imagine set.....6.5 in front 6.9 in the rear. They are clear as a bell and sound great. Midbass is exceptional from the font where the doors are sealed. I'm not getting a ton of output however even at full volume. It's not a whole lot louder than a stock radio IMO. I'm running a Clarion D**785USB deck with a Zuki Eleet 5 amplifier. 

The car is a 1995 Camry. I updated the battery but that is it. Gains were set using the SMeade thing-ama-bob. Any ideas why output is so low?


----------



## legend94

rockytophigh said:


> I've got a question. I have the Imagine set.....6.5 in front 6.9 in the rear. They are clear as a bell and sound great. Midbass is exceptional from the font where the doors are sealed. I'm not getting a ton of output however even at full volume. It's not a whole lot louder than a stock radio IMO. I'm running a Clarion D**785USB deck with a Zuki Eleet 5 amplifier.
> 
> The car is a 1995 Camry. I updated the battery but that is it. Gains were set using the SMeade thing-ama-bob. Any ideas why output is so low?


Maybe the 5 watt zuki? Lol.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^lol

Unfortunately the smd thing is worthless to figure out how much power they are seeing. You need to find out with a multimeter or scope and get back to us. Especially since Zuki's specs are as they are.

Mine got decently loud, loud enough that they could do hearing damage if played irresponsibly. That was active, 125 watts on tap to the mids, high passed at 80hz.


----------



## rockytophigh

legend94 said:


> Maybe the 5 watt zuki? Lol.


Mine's only the 3 watt model lol

Estimated 90-105 ish watts x 4


----------



## rockytophigh

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> ^lol
> 
> Unfortunately the smd thing is worthless to figure out how much power they are seeing. You need to find out with a multimeter or scope and get back to us. Especially since Zuki's specs are as they are.
> 
> Mine got decently loud, loud enough that they could do hearing damage if played irresponsibly. That was active, 125 watts on tap to the mids, high passed at 80hz.


No....maybe I wasn't clear. The SMD device is used to make setting gains simple. They aren't that far off from setting with ear (except for the sub channel).

Don't get me wrong, they sound good.....just not loud. 

I'm not that knowledgable about voltage. Would a small alternator have any effect on system volume? The lights don't dim much if at all though. The deck is supposed to have 4 volt pre outs as well.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Small alternator wouldnt have an effect.

What i meant about the smd is its impossible to tell how much power they have access to with it.

If its seeing 100 watts, in a deadened door, they should be decently loud, peaks should be over 100db easily. Its possible that you want more than they are able to put out. They can get loud, but not realistic live music loud.


----------



## rockytophigh

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Small alternator wouldnt have an effect.
> 
> What i meant about the smd is its impossible to tell how much power they have access to with it.
> 
> If its seeing 100 watts, in a deadened door, they should be decently loud, peaks should be over 100db easily. Its possible that you want more than they are able to put out. They can get loud, but not realistic live music loud.


I get ya. Perhaps they're just not efficient? Shouldn't be too much difference db wise between 75 or 110 watts. I do enjoy their sound at normal listening levels. Although I find normal listening to be 28/29 of 33 on the HU.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Not much of an audible difference between 70-110 watts, less than 3db. You could tell, but if 70 watts isnt enough then 110 wont be either. They are decently efficient for a car audio speaker, at 91db at 1w/1 meter, but not as high as some other raw drivers.


----------



## rockytophigh

I didn't realize efficiency was at 91. That is pretty darn good. Hmmmm. Oh well. 

Hey, that's a really nice install you've done there on the Neon. Very impressive gear choice & work. Many props!


----------



## ZAKOH

I use an 80watt per channel amplifier, but I was curious about how many watts my Imagine woofers are normally seeing. I disconnected the woofers and took an AC voltage measurement with a DMM while playing a 100Hz 0dB test tone, with head unit volume level at the setting I normally listen at. If I recall correctly, the voltage reading corresponded to about 40watts of power. Some people say that the wattage goes up with a load connected. But still, these seem like fairly efficient speakers to me. That's 40watts when playing a 0dB tone. Normal music usually peaks at -10dBs or less.


----------



## GeneralThadeApe

These bad boys are 299.99 @ 12volt-- are they still "worth it" at that price?

I got an email from HAT that showed an authorized dealer that is less than 5 miles from my house-- I live in Colorado.

The shop wasn't open Sunday or Monday-- so, today is the day that I'm hoping to hear them, or at least get another opinion on this set.

I really want something that is "nice" and will not make me want to keep turning around trying to find a "better" sound every month.

I also want something that is not as "mainstream" as everyone else.

Those big box stores only want to push the Focals & Hertz from what I experienced so far in my research.

I once heard a very "smooth" set of Hertz playing the live version of Hotel California a few months ago. 

The sound was so "sweet" and I was immediately impressed with the speakers. 

When I went back to that exact same store to buy them, I could not tell which set it was because they had everything so distorted that the "old sound" was simply not there anymore. 

After trying three more stores and witnessing the same horrible performance of the Hertz, I just gave up on them.

As far as the Focals go, they sound nice, but the boys at the Big Box stores look down on you unless you're willing to pay $1000 for a set of speakers.

I'm too smart for that. 

I know that you can make less expensive speakers sound great with a proper install, proper placement, proper sound deadening, proper matching of wattage & proper settings-- from what I can tell, none of the guys working in the Big Box Stores around here get that.

I can't wait to visit that dealer sometime today-- at least then, I'm hoping to regain some of my sanity chasing around a reasonably priced set of 6.5 components that are "sure to shine" once someone competent can help me choose the right equipment for me & install them for me.


----------



## legend94

GeneralThadeApe said:


> These bad boys are 299.99 @ 12volt-- are they still "worth it" at that price?


not unless you think the mids are worth about 250, the tweeters apparently are garbage. 

if you want just the mids let me know..(and this is not a shameless plug, just the truth)


----------



## 12v Electronics

legend94 said:


> not unless you think the mids are worth about 250, the tweeters apparently are garbage.
> 
> if you want just the mids let me know..(and this is not a shameless plug, just the truth)


They are? Many owners say otherwise.


----------



## GeneralThadeApe

legend94 said:


> not unless you think the mids are worth about 250, the tweeters apparently are garbage.
> 
> if you want just the mids let me know..(and this is not a shameless plug, just the truth)


Hmmm.

I really wasn't expecting that kind of response from my question.

I see that you have been involved with 12v car audio a long time & I value your opinion since I haven't yet been able to hear them for myself.

I will take this as something to think about throughout my research on this product.

Having said that, do you think this is strictly a "Imagine" thing-- meaning that you'd prefer the Unity set with a "better" tweeter & an actual crossover-- or do you mean that you'd go an entirely different direction altogether?

I'm just asking-- not trying to cause any trouble on this forum. 

By the way, I really like the concept of HAT Imagines, Unity & Clarus-- I just need a chance to hear them for myself. Out of all the speakers I've considered, this line is the one I'm most "excited" about.


----------



## legend94

12v Electronics said:


> They are? Many owners say otherwise.


this was not intended to you but rather the owner of hat that finds it necessary to **** in my threads and never follow up.


----------



## 12v Electronics

legend94 said:


> this was not intended to you but rather the owner of hat that finds it necessary to **** in my threads and never follow up.


Ah, so it is a personal problem. 

Is there something I can help with? Please send me a PM or email.


----------



## legend94

GeneralThadeApe said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> I really wasn't expecting that kind of response from my question.
> 
> I see that you have been involved with 12v car audio a long time & I value your opinion since I haven't yet been able to hear them for myself.
> 
> I will take this as something to think about throughout my research on this product.
> 
> Having said that, do you think this is strictly a "Imagine" thing-- meaning that you'd prefer the Unity set with a "better" tweeter & an actual crossover-- or do you mean that you'd go an entirely different direction altogether?
> 
> I'm just asking-- not trying to cause any trouble on this forum.
> 
> By the way, I really like the concept of HAT Imagines, Unity & Clarus-- I just need a chance to hear them for myself. Out of all the speakers I've considered, this line is the one I'm most "excited" about.


well here is the thread where i was selling a pair of the tweeters brand new because they did not fit my install plans at the time:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...135365-new-hybrid-audio-imagine-tweeters.html

you can read the comments of the owner of the company mr buwalda and make your own mind up.

as far as the mids, yes they are a really nice mid but in the imagine set you get no crossover..unless you count a capacitor as one.

if you want to get serious about audio don't get caught up in the current forum boner brand(i have made the mistake too many times)

look into raw drivers and active crossovers! look at this websites testing on various drivers

Klippel Reviews & Driver Specs - DIYMA Car Audio Forum

if you do your homework you will find they are the best use of your money unless you get off telling people you have such and such brand....

here is an example of a tweeter i have used many times and am doing so now

The Madisound Speaker Store

there is no way this tweeter can be touched near the price point it is at 
my favorite thing about this one is the flush mount it has going for it without any junky plastic cups.

i might be the only one on here using a mcintosh amp with raw drivers..go ahead an make fun


----------



## legend94

12v Electronics said:


> Ah, so it is a personal problem.
> 
> Is there something I can help with? Please send me a PM or email.


no problem, and i imagine if someone like yourself were running the show the brand would be awash in cash.


----------



## trojan fan

GeneralThadeApe said:


> I know that you can make less expensive speakers sound great with a proper install, proper placement, proper sound deadening, proper matching of wattage & proper settings-- from what I can tell, none of the guys working in the Big Box Stores around here get that..


The speakers will only sounds as good as the install. If you have the skills to do your own install, go for it.... A proper install will go a long ways in maximizing your investment and overall SQ

IMO for a simple drop-in speaker, the Imagines offer some real value...good luck


----------



## GeneralThadeApe

OK, so I finally got off my butt & headed down to my local Hybrid Audio Technologies dealer here in Colorado-- so what if my Christmas tree only has 1/2 the lights & none of the other decorations on it-- I want to see these things for myself!

My nearest dealer was only across town in Colorado Springs. I jumped into my truck & was severely disappointed when I realized that the place was empty, shut down, no phones to be answered, no forwarding address, etc.-- damn!

After calling another authorized dealer from the list HAT provided me via email, I decided to call the shop in Pueblo to see if they had them on stock and if they were available to audition.

The shop owner said they did & the price he quoted me was very nice.

That was all I needed to hear to entice me to drive 30 miles to finally be able to hear them for myself.

After introducing myself & having him set up the system for me, I was not very satisfied with the sounds coming from any of the speakers in the showroom. In my opinion, the soundboard was poorly setup & they had no way of putting a little amp/ sub with it to fill the sound spectrum fully-- damn! 

I did manage to hear the 6.5 HAT Imagines, the HAT Clarus, the HAT Legatia 4", JL Audio C2 650, JL Audio C3 650 & a few others that I don't quite remember the model numbers from.

Out of the bunch, my favorite, ("least-sucking"), was the Clarus with its "large stage", then a close second went to the Imagines sounding "stronger" than the JL C3's "silky-smooth" sounds.

Like I say, none of the setups sounded all that "good" to me, (due to poor implementation of the soundboard)-- but, since I drove 30 miles just to hear them, I wanted to give the Imagines the benefit of the doubt.

When it came time to pricing them out, I was pleasantly surprised that he priced them @ $179.99 instead of the list price of $299.99 each, (with full warranty & everything that entails).

I immediately told him, _"I'll take two sets, thank you"_.

Yes, I did verify that they were the HAT Imagine I61-2 model, they are new & they are complete.

At that price, I simply couldn't resist-- regardless of how bad they sounded on the board.

I really value all of your guys' opinions; the Hat Imagines get really good reviews & I think that they will work fine for my application.

I'm still waiting to purchase some quality sound deadening & a nice amp wiring install kit-- I'm so close, I can almost "taste it".

I'm giving myself a month to get this project completed, hopefully I can report back to everyone that I made a great decision.


----------



## trojan fan

:2thumbsup:....


----------



## Scott Buwalda

legend94 said:


> this was not intended to you but rather the owner of hat that finds it necessary to **** in my threads and never follow up.


You must have misunderstood the purpose of my post. I thought I was doing you a favor by helping you establish a "going price" for the tweeters. Without hardware, they are $85.00 a pair. After looking at your thread, I noticed that you included the cups and hardware. My post was not meant to disparage your sale, but to reinforce the value of the tweeters. After re-reading my post, I see nothing wrong with it. It's factually correct. Sorry if I stepped on your toes and "shat on your thread." *sigh*

Yes, the midbass are worth approximately double the tweeters. The Imagine I1 tweeters are fantastic at that price point, and are not "garbage." I don't get on this, or any forum enough to see that you were waiting on a reply from me, sorry.


----------



## hirino

Scott Buwalda said:


> You must have misunderstood the purpose of my post. I thought I was doing you a favor by helping you establish a "going price" for the tweeters. Without hardware, they are $85.00 a pair. After looking at your thread, I noticed that you included the cups and hardware. My post was not meant to disparage your sale, but to reinforce the value of the tweeters. After re-reading my post, I see nothing wrong with it. It's factually correct. Sorry if I stepped on your toes and "shat on your thread." *sigh*
> 
> Yes, the midbass are worth approximately double the tweeters. The Imagine I1 tweeters are fantastic at that price point, and are not "garbage." I don't get on this, or any forum enough to see that you were waiting on a reply from me, sorry.


i dissagree scott, i feel you were trying to hurt his sale when he was asking more than you claim they go from the fcatory . 

also the going rate for the tweets is 120 plus tax and ive seen you sell them @ 83.50 plus shipping when they are scratched an dented .so the question here is to why do you feel its ok to post dump on a mans thread who is trying to sell a product which he bought from a dealer ?

the other part i find funny is you come here offer a half @ss apology to the man and still claim you did nothing wrong. scott, you may have a great product but you have alot to learn on how to be humble ...

i feel the only reason you came here is to defend your tweeters, which btw you put down in the first place with the lie about the value.


----------



## hirino

legend94 said:


> no problem, and i imagine if someone like yourself were running the show the brand would be awash in cash.


agreed , ive dealt with tom personally and he is a great guy .


----------



## avanti1960

count me in as disagreeing vehemently to post #423. 

I read the thread thread and thought What? Where is the issue? That's it?! I thought that a moderator had deleted any "controversial" postings.


----------



## hirino

avanti1960 said:


> count me in as disagreeing vehemently to post #423.
> 
> I read the thread thread and thought What? Where is the issue? That's it?! I thought that a moderator had deleted any "controversial" postings.


to dissagree with my post is your choice, however i dont think u fully understood the point . also scott, did post dump which is against the rules and because the mods did not delete it does not mean its not wrong . he lied and the only reason for that is to sabatage the sale . 

i called an authorized dealer and was quoted for that same set of tweeters 119 plus tax 
so when the owner of a company goes on a for sale thread and visciously puts a low ball price a set of speakers that his own company sells for higher is b.s. especially when the product was purchased from an authoruized dealer and its a private sale not dealer associated is plain wrong. 

this to me is shady business practice

just think next time you have something forsale how you would feel if somebody lied about the retail value of your item compared to your asking price just to screw with you!


----------



## rton20s

I must say, I am with Avanti and Scott on this one. That isn't to say you (hirino) and Legend94 don't have every right to your opinion. 

I read through Legend94's sale thread and saw Scott's response. I didn't see it as "vicious" or disparaging in any way. At the time Scott posted you were asking for $70 shipped. Scott stated that they retail from the factory for $85. Being that your tweeters were brand new, I took it as him commenting that your price was a good deal. Scott then clarified in this thread that the retail price of $85 doesn't include hardware, making Legend94's price an even better deal. How dare Scott? Perception IS reality, I suppose. 

To hirino, I understand you may have called an authorized dealer and been quoted $119 + tax. I'm really not surprised. The Imagine tweeters aren't really an item that is commonly purchased separate from the coax/component set. Being more of a special order item and likely including all mounting hardware, I would think that $119 is an appropriate price from an authorized dealer. However, I would bet that if you got in contact with Hybrid, they would quote you $85 for the tweeters sans hardware, and point you in the direction of a dealer who would honor the price if Hybrid won't sale direct. 

Lastly, Scott has proven to me that he runs the kind of company that I am happy to purchase products from. He sent me emails personally to answer questions before I was ever a customer of his. He also put me in contact with a local rep who gave even more assistance. Then after I had purchased his product he offered more personal assistance without ever once asking where I had gotten the product (authorized or otherwise). It was Scott's professionalism and willingness to help a POTENTIAL customer (looking at some of his least expensive products) that convinced me to go Hybrid when there were so many other good options on the table.


----------



## hirino

rton20s said:


> I must say, I am with Avanti and Scott on this one. That isn't to say you (hirino) and Legend94 don't have every right to your opinion.
> 
> I read through Legend94's sale thread and saw Scott's response. I didn't see it as "vicious" or disparaging in any way. At the time Scott posted you were asking for $70 shipped. Scott stated that they retail from the factory for $85. Being that your tweeters were brand new, I took it as him commenting that your price was a good deal. Scott then clarified in this thread that the retail price of $85 doesn't include hardware, making Legend94's price an even better deal. How dare Scott? Perception IS reality, I suppose.
> 
> To hirino, I understand you may have called an authorized dealer and been quoted $119 + tax. I'm really not surprised. The Imagine tweeters aren't really an item that is commonly purchased separate from the coax/component set. Being more of a special order item and likely including all mounting hardware, I would think that $119 is an appropriate price from an authorized dealer. However, I would bet that if you got in contact with Hybrid, they would quote you $85 for the tweeters sans hardware, and point you in the direction of a dealer who would honor the price if Hybrid won't sale direct.
> 
> Lastly, Scott has proven to me that he runs the kind of company that I am happy to purchase products from. He sent me emails personally to answer questions before I was ever a customer of his. He also put me in contact with a local rep who gave even more assistance. Then after I had purchased his product he offered more personal assistance without ever once asking where I had gotten the product (authorized or otherwise). It was Scott's professionalism and willingness to help a POTENTIAL customer (looking at some of his least expensive products) that convinced me to go Hybrid when there were so many other good options on the table.


i agree with you that we all can form ower own opinion. mine was based on facts ,i called a dealer and never once did they give me an option for price with or with out mounts, also scott later posted a sale for scratch and dents and in that thread a set of imagine tweets are advertised @ 83.50 plus shipping so a scratch and dent is what he quoted on the original thread thus not new retail from factory .
also if you read all teh posts another member gave legend the advice to trust his gut that the speakers are worth more and that had he spoke hi mind he would open a can of worms .

with all that said not everyone is going to have the same experience with a particular person or company and since the original thread was not mine i will let this be


----------



## 12v Electronics

hirino said:


> since the original thread was not mine i will let this be


Thank you. 

Back on topic please.


----------



## GeneralThadeApe

I'm new to all of this-- so bear with me.

I just purchased two sets of HAT "Imagine" 6.5" speakers brand new from an authorized dealer, one for the front doors & another for the rear doors of my 4 door GMC Canyon.

I plan on installing both sets as coaxials first as Scott suggests-- even though my front door has a spot for the tweeters already in place. If I don't like the sound, then I reserve the right to tear the front door apart & separate the speaker for component configuration. (That's the beauty of this set).

The front speakers are low & towards the front of the door panel, while the tweeter location is high & towards the front of the door panel-- as it is now, most of the sound is coming from the lower section of my door anyways & I don't have a problem with that.

My question is this: "Do I / should I replace the factory wiring for my speakers to get optimal sound?" . "If so, what gauge wiring do you recommend?".

Here is the list of gear that I already have on hand:
_Pioneer Avic F-90BT Head Unit (installed)
Jl Audio 700 / 5 XD (Class D) Amp (new in box, sitting on the shelf of my garage)
Jl Audio Stealthbox (installed, but not hooked up)
HAT "Imagine" 6.5" Set x 2 each (new in box(s), sitting on the shelf of my garage) _

I still need RCA's cables, an Amp Install Kit (what gauge wiring do you recommend?), sound dampening material (what brand / model & how much should I be using on a 4-door small truck), speaker adapters (Do I need these? What size? Where can I get my hands on these? Front & Rear or both?), and a few odds & ends here and there.

I really want my system to sound the best it can. I also want it to look as "stock" as possible. That's why I'm choosing my equipment methodically. I would rather "do it right the first time" than always questioning my install.

By the way, I hear some of this stuff actually makes great "stocking stuffers"-- hahaha!!!

Besides that, I don't want to let Scott down because I know that these speakers are really quite awesome with the right install.

So, can you guys give me a few more recommendations for installation materials (without going "overboard"" with my budget?)-- if you do, I will I will do everything within my power to "make it happen".

Thanks


----------



## rton20s

General, you're probably better off posting your questions in a new thread. In the mean time, I would check out Knu Konceptz for your amp kit, 4 ga. With OFC ought to be sufficient, but you'll probably need additional speaker wire. Also check them and Sound Deadener Showdown (there are tons of others) for sound deadening.


----------



## joshchrans

I 2nd Amp Installation Kits, HDMI Cables

a 4 ga install kit, and they also sell deadener, which I have had good luck with.

As for speaker adapters, get you a jigsaw and cut some from MDF yourself =)

Might be smart to coat them in bedliner or spray rubber before you install them.


----------



## GeneralThadeApe

rton20s said:


> General, you're probably better off posting your questions in a new thread. In the mean time, I would check out Knu Konceptz for your amp kit, 4 ga. With OFC ought to be sufficient, but you'll probably need additional speaker wire. Also check them and Sound Deadener Showdown (there are tons of others) for sound deadening.


OK-- will do.

Thanks for the heads up!


----------



## GeneralThadeApe

I managed to install the speakers last night-- front & rears.

Boy what a mess-- my 04 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (4 door) has weird little plastic brackets glued to the old Blaupunkt 15w that came with the truck stock.

If anyone is trying to do this install, all of the brackets can be pried loose between the plastic mounting bracket & the metal speaker frame by carefully inserting a razor knife blade between the two.

I used the rear bracket with a 1/2 spacer from Best Buy for the rears. I used a generic 6 1/2" speaker adapter from Best Buy along with the same 1/2" spacer that I bought (above) for the fronts. That was the only way I could make these speakers fit.

When testing the sound late last night, I wasn't all that impressed. There were rattles everywhere & I actually had to turn the bass way down to make them stop causing a ruckus.

This morning, I decided to install Dynamat Xtreme (from Best Buy also) to all of my doors. I was a little scared at first, but the process was quite easy once I got started.

Since I already spent so much time & money on this purchase, I decided to go "all the way" and install the Dynamat Xtreme inside the door panels and the outside where the speaker faces the driver. I'd say that I covered around 90% of both doors and finally got everything buttoned up.

Now my truck sounds like Obama's limousine-- this thing almost sounds bulletproof. No more rattles, no more turning down the bass. Just set it the way you like it & leave it alone.

Let me tell you that the Imagines sounds amazing. Crisp. Clear. Clean. Strong. I do not have any desire to replace these with anything "better"-- they really sound that good.

Thanks Scott, these Imagines really sound fantastic! 

P.S.-- I still plan on installing my JL Audio XD 700/ 5 amp & Stealthbox once I recover from the purchase of all that Dynamat Xtreme today...


----------



## KSpan

Got mine installed today as well - Imagine 6.5s (coax) in the front doors and Memphis 6.5 coaxials in the rears, both running off of an Alpine PDX-V9. After some EQ and time alignment, I'm very impressed with the clarity and balance. I am really looking forward to sealing and deadening my swiss-cheese doors and really hearing what these can do.


----------



## GeneralThadeApe

I installed mine as coax all around, they sound just fine that way to me.

Believe me, sound deadening makes all the difference in the world!


----------



## KSpan

Like the General above, count me as an impresed and satisfied Imagine user. After a couple of days of tuning and breaking in (probably ~ 6-7 hours of listening time thus far), they have come a long way from their sound upon initial install and really sound great in my crappy ankle-level stock locations (a necessary evil for my limited purposes). They're getting ~ 100W from an Alpine PDX-V9 and I have them "double-crossed", with an 18db @ 70 Hz cross at the HU and an additional 12db @ ~50 Hz cross at the amp... probably entirely unnecessary, but I could swear that they are cleaner with both crossovers engaged  

Probably the most impressive thing for me is the way they seamlessly integrate with my sub, which is a single MTX 5500 12" in a sealed box. The sub is crossed 18db @ 100 Hz, and it really lends to a synergy between the two. 

Long story short, another happy Imagine user. Could other coaxials work for my install at a lower pricepoint? Maybe, but these sound so good I don't really care to find out. Hybrid really did well with these drivers.


----------



## GeneralThadeApe

Well, my little project is finally done.

I went ahead & had a local car audio shop mount, wire (4-gauge OFC with sheilded RCA cables), install & tune my amp for me-- boy does it ever sound so sweet!

Not a single rattle or hint of distortion anywhere & the bass is really quite strong.

I made the mistake of playing Ozzy Osbourne's "Over the Mountain" a little too loud & now my ears hurt-- I will never play anything that loud ever again.

I just wanted to say that this is the nicest sounding stereo that I have ever heard & am glad to say, "It's mine".

Good luck to everyone working with the HAT brand, all I can tell you is that I'm extremely satisfied with my Imagines...


----------



## Danometal

GeneralThadeApe said:


> Well, my little project is finally done.
> 
> I went ahead & had a local car audio shop mount, wire (4-gauge OFC with sheilded RCA cables), install & tune my amp for me-- boy does it ever sound so sweet!
> 
> Not a single rattle or hint of distortion anywhere & the bass is really quite strong.
> 
> I made the mistake of playing Ozzy Osbourne's "Over the Mountain" a little too loud & now my ears hurt-- I will never play anything that loud ever again.
> 
> I just wanted to say that this is the nicest sounding stereo that I have ever heard & am glad to say, "It's mine".
> 
> Good luck to everyone working with the HAT brand, all I can tell you is that I'm extremely satisfied with my Imagines...


Install a sub setup and it will sound even better.


----------



## therapture

New here, but I am loving my Imagines. I have a long ways to go, and I am just getting into SQ. These make me smile.

Mine are currently crossed ~85hz @12db, fed by up to 130w of power each. Mounted to a treated mdf baffle in deadened doors.


----------



## BigGeorge

Any one ever compare those Imagines to the Unity components? Wondering if the x-over and tweeter make a difference?


----------



## 12v Electronics

BigGeorge said:


> Any one ever compare those Imagines to the Unity components? Wondering if the x-over and tweeter make a difference?


As a coaxial on axis the Imagines do very well as is. When used as a component set and depending on your install, the external adjsutable crossover can make quite a difference in some applications.


----------



## therapture

After having my Imagine 6.5's in for a few weeks, I'll add my cliff notes:



-Being my first "high end" mid, I am amazed at the midbass output in a sealed door (at $299, they are not "cheap").

-soundstage is high up across the top of the dash, my friends swear I have tweets and center channel running in the stock locations (my Imagines are in co-ax mode, "butt level" in front of door.

-75+ watts will run these nicely. I upgraded from 60w RMS per channel to 135w RMS per channel and there is not a huge difference, just more dynamics.

- I am running at 80hz HP/24db LR and they get loud while still providing prodigious output and SQ, cross them at 65hz and they will provide amazing lower end and SQ albeit, at a lower volume level. I listen to alot of "electronica" and I need lots of midbass output and articulation, these provide that.

-the tweets can be very powerful on axis, I had to EQ back some of the 1.2-1.5khz from the passenger door since it was closer to on axis then my driver side and was overly loud. 

-these speakers live and die by a sealed door, at first, I was unimpressed, but after deciding to do things right and pursue SQ, they came ALIVE and exceeded expectations.


----------



## therapture

My right side, not even aimed at my head, is STRONG since it is almost on-axis as opposed to the left side. Alot of my EQ time has been spent working on those 1.2k and up ranges! Not helping the fact is that my left tweeter is below my steering column and is firing just above my knee, so if my leg is leaning far left, close to the door panel, it blocks some of the same sounds that the right side is so strong with. I ended up cutting the right side gain for the entire channel .75db, and then EQ'ing the offending ranges down from there. My EQ plot looks a little crazy  but I don't know what one is supposed to look like since this is my first dsp and certainly the first time I have ever tuned with a 31 band para eq. To be sure, the Imagine tweets are much better than the piercing Infinity tweets I had before, and the midbass is phenomenal for a 6.5" driver, once I got my door deaden and seal properly done.



ZAKOH said:


> By the way, is there a consensus on the best way to aim the HAT Imagine tweeters?
> 
> Here is my experience so far. They are in door sails in an older Taurus. The opposite tweeter aims directly at my head. The closest tweeter aims at the head of the passenger. I like this as starting setup, because I hope that being more off-axis will help to mitigate the fact that the left tweeter is so much closer to my head than the opposite tweeter.
> 
> How does this sound? The highs are very crisp and detailed. In fact, I would say a little bit too much. Perhaps this is due to some frequencies being too loud. Cymbals and maracas, specially if they're meant to be on the right side of the stage are too .. sterile and detailed. There is also this feeling that their location is _exactly_ where tweeter is. Now, cymbals should be a little in the back no? And maracas sound almost like my passenger is shaking them near the opposite tweeter.
> 
> First thing I do is turn down the tweeter level a bit on the amplifier. This has reduced these effects but has not eliminated them. Next, I tried this.. rotate the tweeter just a little forward. Do not overdo this. Wow. Problem fixed! The sound stage is a little more diffuse, a little more distant and without tweeters being localized as easily. Instruments like cymbals and maracas sound more laid back, and more distant, while still having a very good, crispness in them.


----------



## therapture

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> 80hz definitely stresses these things less. I tried 63hz, and the response dropped like a rock by 63hz. It wasn't a deadening issue, these were playing IB with a concrete, steel, and fiberglass baffle, in the kick panels. Literally, the kick panels weighed 20 pounds. Remember, at 63hz, you're playing these things significantly below FS. Even at 80hz/24db, these can be bottomed with 125 watts depending on the music.


Sorry for reigniting an older long running thread! What I have found is that at in my car, [email protected] was a bit too low for loud, midbass heavy electronica/psytrance stuff, especially when I get "volume knob happy". I tried 24db slopes, but to my ears, the linkwitz 48db xover is the bees knees, and I get the best overall response now at 85hz/48db. Feeding them a 130w capable supply, they get plenty loud and take some abuse. Drop them a bit on volume and the SQ is all there, while still keeping midbass impact and presence.


----------



## ZAKOH

therapture said:


> My right side, not even aimed at my head, is STRONG since it is almost on-axis as opposed to the left side. Alot of my EQ time has been spent working on those 1.2k and up ranges! Not helping the fact is that my left tweeter is below my steering column and is firing just above my knee, so if my leg is leaning far left, close to the door panel, it blocks some of the same sounds that the right side is so strong with. I ended up cutting the right side gain for the entire channel .75db, and then EQ'ing the offending ranges down from there. My EQ plot looks a little crazy  but I don't know what one is supposed to look like since this is my first dsp and certainly the first time I have ever tuned with a 31 band para eq. To be sure, the Imagine tweets are much better than the piercing Infinity tweets I had before, and the midbass is phenomenal for a 6.5" driver, once I got my door deaden and seal properly done.


Right now my tweeters are in sails. I aimed both at the center of the car. They sound good (I think HP is at 5KHz/18dB)


----------



## ZAKOH

therapture said:


> Sorry for reigniting an older long running thread! What I have found is that at in my car, [email protected] was a bit too low for loud, midbass heavy electronica/psytrance stuff, especially when I get "volume knob happy". I tried 24db slopes, but to my ears, the linkwitz 48db xover is the bees knees, and I get the best overall response now at 85hz/48db. Feeding them a 130w capable supply, they get plenty loud and take some abuse. Drop them a bit on volume and the SQ is all there, while still keeping midbass impact and presence.



I always thought that Imagines were quite lacking at 60Hz. In my car, I could hear it with test tones. 100Hz - strong response, 80Hz -ok, 60Hz - weak. Moreover, in my old car playing the 60Hz tone alone shows that door is rattling, so I in the end end I set my HP for woofers at 80Hz/18dB HP. Good speaker IMO. I like mid-range clarity. I also like that the depth is only 2.75 inches, so it fits in most factory locations without modification (sometimes with a simple adapter ring).


----------



## avanti1960

i just noted today on the way home from work how great the imagine woofers sound. they really deliver the bass and seem to sound better than ever. 
i experiment with either 63 or 80 hz for crossover points for midbass and woofer. i do get more of a warmer / bassy content sound with the crossover set at 63 Hz- almost too bassy and still plenty of impact.


----------



## therapture

avanti1960 said:


> i just noted today on the way home from work how great the imagine woofers sound. they really deliver the bass and seem to sound better than ever.
> i experiment with either 63 or 80 hz for crossover points for midbass and woofer. i do get more of a warmer / bassy content sound with the crossover set at 63 Hz- almost too bassy and still plenty of impact.


I find 75hz to be a bit warm for my own personal "loud" level, it's much cleaner at 85hz for the upper end of my range and I still have detail. At 75 I lose a bit of detail.


----------



## therapture

ZAKOH said:


> I always thought that Imagines were quite lacking at 60Hz. In my car, I could hear it with test tones. 100Hz - strong response, 80Hz -ok, 60Hz - weak. Moreover, in my old car playing the 60Hz tone alone shows that door is rattling, so I in the end end I set my HP for woofers at 80Hz/18dB HP. Good speaker IMO. I like mid-range clarity. I also like that the depth is only 2.75 inches, so it fits in most factory locations without modification (sometimes with a simple adapter ring).


No, 60hz is not enough, they need a sub. At 80hz however, they are strong!

I found very strong response at 125 and 160 hz, and my EQ curve reflects that.


----------



## therapture

ZAKOH said:


> Right now my tweeters are in sails. I aimed both at the center of the car. They sound good (I think HP is at 5KHz/18dB)


I am considering going bi-amped and thinking about locations.


----------



## ZAKOH

therapture said:


> I am considering going bi-amped and thinking about locations.


I tried the tweeters bi-amped with first order high pass filter in this location. I didn't like it.


----------



## therapture

ZAKOH said:


> I tried the tweeters bi-amped with first order high pass filter in this location. I didn't like it.


Do you mind telling me about how far the midpoints are between the woofer and the tweet? I am looking at moving the tweet this weekend, and I have two locations picked, either the sail panel, or the upper door trim (several inches closer). The door card is also a much easier install and would be vertically in line with the woofer, while the sail is a bit further forward.

I would be surface mounting them, either with the "straight ahead" mount firing directly across the cabin at the opposite tweet, or I have the 45 degree angle mounts as well. Flush mounting would be almost impossible due to some restrictions on the backside of the card.


----------



## aznlunatic

New to the forums and have a couple questions about the HAT Imagine 6.5in speakers. I went through each page and read everything. So from what I understand this far, the Imagine were originally designed as a coax set but can be used as components, now when used at components the tweeters are a couple db louder than it should be. Now I drive a big car, 2011 Toyota Camry Se, mids in the doors and factory tweets in the dash, I like how the stock tweeters face the glass and the way it sounds (yes i know, probably bad imaging), but im just curious about the 3 idea's i have in mind:

1. Run full active, amp mids and tweeters separately and void warranty. 

or

2. Convert to component mode, move tweeter to the dash and then extend tweeter wires back into the door and run as passive. 

or 

3. Save up more cash and opt for the Unity set

I really like the price of the Imagines so if i can make them work then ill definitely look into picking up the set within the next couple days, but i just wanted to see what your guy's thoughts on this.


----------



## avanti1960

aznlunatic said:


> New to the forums and have a couple questions about the HAT Imagine 6.5in speakers. I went through each page and read everything. So from what I understand this far, the Imagine were originally designed as a coax set but can be used as components, now when used at components the tweeters are a couple db louder than it should be. Now I drive a big car, 2011 Toyota Camry Se, mids in the doors and factory tweets in the dash, I like how the stock tweeters face the glass and the way it sounds (yes i know, probably bad imaging), but im just curious about the 3 idea's i have in mind:
> 
> 1. Run full active, amp mids and tweeters separately and void warranty.
> 
> or
> 
> 2. Convert to component mode, move tweeter to the dash and then extend tweeter wires back into the door and run as passive.
> 
> or
> 
> 3. Save up more cash and opt for the Unity set
> 
> I really like the price of the Imagines so if i can make them work then ill definitely look into picking up the set within the next couple days, but i just wanted to see what your guy's thoughts on this.


Toyota OE sounds very good. The only thing it lacks is power (loudness) and ability to process / tune to your preference. 

I recommend going active with a decent amp and outboard processor and try the OE speakers with that setup first. You may e surprised.


----------



## aznlunatic

avanti1960 said:


> Toyota OE sounds very good. The only thing it lacks is power (loudness) and ability to process / tune to your preference.
> 
> I recommend going active with a decent amp and outboard processor and try the OE speakers with that setup first. You may e surprised.


I forgot to mention that my car has the upgraded JBL sound system, but i swapped out the original headunit for the pioneer 80prs. The reason why i was looking at new speakers is that the driver side mid bass speaker is blow, i dont know how but it blown and the cheapest replacement i can find is $50 and thats just not worth it.


----------



## 12v Electronics

aznlunatic said:


> New to the forums and have a couple questions about the HAT Imagine 6.5in speakers. I went through each page and read everything. So from what I understand this far, the Imagine were originally designed as a coax set but can be used as components, now when used at components the tweeters are a couple db louder than it should be. Now I drive a big car, 2011 Toyota Camry Se, mids in the doors and factory tweets in the dash, I like how the stock tweeters face the glass and the way it sounds (yes i know, probably bad imaging), but im just curious about the 3 idea's i have in mind:
> 
> 1. Run full active, amp mids and tweeters separately and void warranty.
> 
> or
> 
> 2. Convert to component mode, move tweeter to the dash and then extend tweeter wires back into the door and run as passive.
> 
> or
> 
> 3. Save up more cash and opt for the Unity set
> 
> I really like the price of the Imagines so if i can make them work then ill definitely look into picking up the set within the next couple days, but i just wanted to see what your guy's thoughts on this.


It was a pleasure talking with you today. In your question #1, you will not void the speaker's warranty if you run them active. Hybrid does insist that you use a thermal protection device on the tweeter if you are not using the passive crossover supplied. It is available under the part number PTC-75.


----------



## Serieus

ordered my set of imagines wednesday night -- tom informed me that they're out of stock but get a new shipment in on monday so i hope to have them by next weekend. they'll be run active off an 80prs with an alpine pdx-f4 for power, replacing my massive audio ck6 set. tweeters most likely will be in the a-pillars, just like the ck6 tweeters. looking forward to doing a comparison between the two, hoping that the imagines are a bit more smooth and less harsh.

working on reading through this thread, but there's been some good info so far. hoping to get some closed-cell foam into the door panels to limit the vibrations. they're pretty bad as-is, especially if i drop the crossover down to 63hz rather than 80hz. not sure how to solve all of them though, i believe that quite a bit of the rattling is from the window (i have manual windows and by pushing the handle to put the window up tight and holding it there, a lot of rattles go away) but i'm going to look into figuring out how to solve that.

how much power have you all fed the mid? i made the voice coils in my ck6's stinky with the 125 watts on tap when i switched to active from passive and had the crossover at 63hz. that's what made me finally decide to bring the crossover up to 80hz.


----------



## therapture

Serieus said:


> ordered my set of imagines wednesday night -- tom informed me that they're out of stock but get a new shipment in on monday so i hope to have them by next weekend. they'll be run active off an 80prs with an alpine pdx-f4 for power, replacing my massive audio ck6 set. tweeters most likely will be in the a-pillars, just like the ck6 tweeters. looking forward to doing a comparison between the two, hoping that the imagines are a bit more smooth and less harsh.
> 
> working on reading through this thread, but there's been some good info so far. hoping to get some closed-cell foam into the door panels to limit the vibrations. they're pretty bad as-is, especially if i drop the crossover down to 63hz rather than 80hz. not sure how to solve all of them though, i believe that quite a bit of the rattling is from the window (i have manual windows and by pushing the handle to put the window up tight and holding it there, a lot of rattles go away) but i'm going to look into figuring out how to solve that.
> 
> how much power have you all fed the mid? i made the voice coils in my ck6's stinky with the 125 watts on tap when i switched to active from passive and had the crossover at 63hz. that's what made me finally decide to bring the crossover up to 80hz.


I have some very well sealed doors, and to be honest, running the Imagines any lower than 75-80 hz just makes more vibration and does not help the output at all, in fact, at higher volumes, it is detrimental. At 85hz/24db, they are putting out prodigious midbass off of 100w (my Alpine V9). I think 63hz is too low unless you are at medium to low volumes, and even then, I don't get much, if any, improvement.


----------



## 12v Electronics

Serieus said:


> how much power have you all fed the mid? i made the voice coils in my ck6's stinky with the 125 watts on tap when i switched to active from passive and had the crossover at 63hz. that's what made me finally decide to bring the crossover up to 80hz.


Typically anything over 100w is a waste. Usually a good 75 makes them real happy.


----------



## Serieus

therapture said:


> I have some very well sealed doors, and to be honest, running the Imagines any lower than 75-80 hz just makes more vibration and does not help the output at all, in fact, at higher volumes, it is detrimental. At 85hz/24db, they are putting out prodigious midbass off of 100w (my Alpine V9). I think 63hz is too low unless you are at medium to low volumes, and even then, I don't get much, if any, improvement.


not for output purposes, my sub blends better at 63 than at 80 

thanks for the responses guys, i'll make sure to test it out and be careful with power.


----------



## therapture

I probably overdrive the system a bit because I like fairly loud, but clean output. I love the visceral impact.


----------



## avanti1960

does anyone experience this bass quality that is loud but not very good quality- unlike that of a home speaker- kind of higher pitched? i really need to get rid of that.
doors are fully dampened and sealed, baffle is solid, etc. 
thanks


----------



## 12v Electronics

avanti1960 said:


> does anyone experience this bass quality that is loud but not very good quality- unlike that of a home speaker- kind of higher pitched? i really need to get rid of that.
> doors are fully dampened and sealed, baffle is solid, etc.
> thanks


Since you are in Chicagoland, I would gladly take a look at your system and see what can be done. Unfortunately it is not always as easy as deadening your doors to duplicate a good home speaker sound. 

Let me know if you are interested.

Tom


----------



## avanti1960

12v Electronics said:


> Since you are in Chicagoland, I would gladly take a look at your system and see what can be done. Unfortunately it is not always as easy as deadening your doors to duplicate a good home speaker sound.
> 
> Let me know if you are interested.
> 
> Tom


absolutely Tom, thanks. PM sent.


----------



## Serieus

so, i got my imagines on wednesday and put them in today. if anyone's wondering, the car is a 98 honda civic sedan. actually, i put in one of the midbass drivers yesterday but it took longer than planned (of course) and i had to take my girlfriend to the airport sooner than expected, so the rest of it was on hold until today. it did sound rather odd driving to and from the airport with the mismatched midbass 

here's a few shots of the midbass compared to the massive audio ck6:


















as you can see, they're almost exactly the same depth, but the mounting baffle on the imagines is a bit thicker (though certainly not as solid unfortunately, but it's irrelevant -- it's more than strong enough for the purpose it serves). the magnets are also roughly the same size. overall, i was actually impressed with how solid the imagine's felt despite the basket being entirely plastic.

i used the angled surface mounts on the a-pillars, same as the massive's were. i'd like to flush mount them soon but i need to do some kind of minor pod-build on the pillars in order to make it look decent. the tweeters are pointed roughly towards the overhead light.

they are, again, ran active from a deh-80prs to an alpine pdx-f4. i set the crossovers to 6.3k with 24db/octave slopes and listened a bit with the eq flat, then ran auto eq/ta. with the eq flat they sounded quite nice but i didn't bother level matching or anything so they sounded a bit bright and not quite right, but initial impressions were good. after the auto eq/ta sequence finished, i got in and listened and... wow. i waited this long to upgrade to these?

the highs are, to be entirely honest, _exactly_ what i wanted: crisp, detailed, yet smooth and not fatiguing whatsoever. the midrange does seem to be a bit more smooth than the massive's but overall it's not a huge deal. i will say that with auto ta disabled everything seems to stay centered and not drift as much, and i'd imagine that's due to the design philosophy that hat goes by: avoiding crossing over in the middle of the vocal range. with a processor i don't see phase issues due to being crossed in the middle of the vocal range being a big issue, but to those who don't have any type of processing, i would say it's a *huge* reason to want this set.

the midbass is excellent as well. it blends very well with the sub (crossing over at 80hz but had no issues even at high volumes with 63hz) and is very tight and realistic. it's not a huge improvement over the ck6 but it does sound a bit different and i like the imagine's more, for most things that i've listened to so far. in fact, the only thing that had me missing the ck6's was electric guitar. the imagine's sound more clean and clear, but the ck6's just had more weight and it really sounded fantastic. with that out of the way, it's not a major issue and i would guess that with a bit of eq'ing, i can get that weight added back in while maintaining all the other positives of the set.

i also wanted to add this in: this set plays a good bit louder with less distortion than the ck6's. it's no huge deal but it was a nice bonus.

i've still got a lot of listening to do and of course the imagine's are still breaking in, but this is honestly up there with the best $300 i've added to my stereo. i'm not sure if i would feel that way if i added them before the deh-80prs or not since i didn't try running them passive but seriously, these are wonderful.

i know i never conversed with you tom, but i would like to say thank you for getting these out to me so quickly. they're an excellent set of drivers and you will almost definitely get more orders from me in the future when i decide it's time to upgrade. 

i forgot to add, that my mounting baffles are pretty bad. i wouldn't be at all surprised if they are part of the reason for having less bass response, since they both split while putting the imagine's in. i tried to seal them up with some damplifier that i have left but i'm not sure how much, if at all, that helped. regardless, i will be redoing the baffles soon, probably out of HDPE so there's no worries of water damage. i'm also planning to put foam underneath them when i redo them so that they seal up against the door as well.


----------



## Serieus

so i just thought i would put this up here as a testament to hat support for anyone looking at purchasing any of their products. massive audio was actually very good in my experience as well, but not quite like this...

today i noticed a kind of high-frequency screeching sound mainly prominent female vocals on only the passenger side mid. i sent in an email to support at 3:45, a few paragraphs long detailing the install including mounting and crossovers, and the issue i was having. i just came back to my computer and at 3:58 i received an email back asking me to try turning off all processing on the mids and blow air from an air compressor into the gap between the phase plug pole piece and the voice coil in an effort to try to remove any particles that may be causing the noise, mentioning that if this fails he'd be happy to get me set up for a replacement.

i'm amazed that the response was not only quick, but very thorough and helpful. it will be incredibly hard to purchase drivers from another company at this point, lol.


----------



## SViglienzone4

So I really wanted some Imagine components for a while. I currently have the boston acoustic pro50se mids with focal tweeters. I am going to build kickpanels and want to get a 6 1/2" mid before i build them so I don't have to build them twice. I eventually want a 3 way setup + sub. I have an 80prs to actively run a 2way + sub at the moment so lets say i got the imagines would I be happy with the outcome when I finally buy a 8ch. DSP and some 3" mids? Also if I would what mids would be good to buy the l3's from hybrid? Any recommendations on how I go about this?


----------



## Serieus

they would be fine with mids but imo part of the beauty of the imagines is the fact that they don't need mids. they play high enough that it doesn't matter, especially if you could get them on axis.

the l3's would be a good choice if you're really set on that decision but again, it's not entirely necessary. and while the imagines do have quite stellar midbass (both in terms of quality and quantity) i'm not sure that i would waste the money on the set for them to run as dedicated midbasses. not that the tweeters are bad, they sound quite good but have a narrow bandwidth. the mid is the star of the show, so to speak. i would imagine there are various other midbass and tweeter combos that would be better for your purposes for a 3 way. but for a 2 way, the imagines are a wonderfully designed set, and the woofer pairs very well with the included tweeter.


----------



## therapture

Serieus said:


> they would be fine with mids but imo part of the beauty of the imagines is the fact that they don't need mids. they play high enough that it doesn't matter, especially if you could get them on axis.
> 
> the l3's would be a good choice if you're really set on that decision but again, it's not entirely necessary. and while the imagines do have quite stellar midbass (both in terms of quality and quantity) i'm not sure that i would waste the money on the set for them to run as dedicated midbasses. not that the tweeters are bad, they sound quite good but have a narrow bandwidth. the mid is the star of the show, so to speak. i would imagine there are various other midbass and tweeter combos that would be better for your purposes for a 3 way. but for a 2 way, the imagines are a wonderfully designed set, and the woofer pairs very well with the included tweeter.


Very well described. I am in love with my Imagines. Stellar SQ for the $ invested, and my car looks stock, but I did do a decent job at sealing off and deadening the doors.


----------



## therapture

Serieus said:


> not for output purposes, my sub blends better at 63 than at 80
> 
> thanks for the responses guys, i'll make sure to test it out and be careful with power.


Since the last post about an 85hz xover, I have found that [email protected] IS indeed better in my car after I got better at tuning. I run the sub at 75hz as well and everything is staying up front, and even with the sub off...I still have midbass impact and the bassline is present. Awesome drivers IMO.

I never knew I could have this much upfront bass and impact from a pair of "lowly" 6.5's.


----------



## Serieus

therapture said:


> Since the last post about an 85hz xover, I have found that [email protected] IS indeed better in my car after I got better at tuning. I run the sub at 75hz as well and everything is staying up front, and even with the sub off...I still have midbass impact and the bassline is present. Awesome drivers IMO.
> 
> I never knew I could have this much upfront bass and impact from a pair of "lowly" 6.5's.


i've been running mine at 80hz/18db and it blends better than the massive audio ck6's did at 63 or 80. i'm not sure why that is, but it's just easier to plant the bass right up front with the imagines, despite having a bit less output. it's hard to describe the differences in the two sets in regards to midbass character, but the imagines seem to be softer whereas the massives felt like they were trying to eat you alive with midbass.  both are good in their own ways but i definitely feel like the imagines are more realistic and they seem to be cleaner throughout the whole range.

i run my mids with no lowpass and the tweeters at 6k/6db, mids in doors and tweeters in a-pillars. stage is generally up at the dash and sounds great to my ears, i like it. it's been my favorite crossover setup for the set so far


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## SViglienzone4

Serieus said:


> they would be fine with mids but imo part of the beauty of the imagines is the fact that they don't need mids. they play high enough that it doesn't matter, especially if you could get them on axis.
> 
> the l3's would be a good choice if you're really set on that decision but again, it's not entirely necessary. and while the imagines do have quite stellar midbass (both in terms of quality and quantity) i'm not sure that i would waste the money on the set for them to run as dedicated midbasses. not that the tweeters are bad, they sound quite good but have a narrow bandwidth. the mid is the star of the show, so to speak. i would imagine there are various other midbass and tweeter combos that would be better for your purposes for a 3 way. but for a 2 way, the imagines are a wonderfully designed set, and the woofer pairs very well with the included tweeter.


I like the answer I think your bringing me back down to earth and I am contemplating maybe getting the imagines and leaving my system at a 2 way. So I think I will mount the imagines in the kickpanels (on axis by the sounds of what you said but is off axis that far behind in SQ?) the Tweeters definately will be in the a-pillars and I was curious how you mounted yours. I like my truck being a 2-seater and was thinking of aiming the right tweeter at the drivers inside ear and the left tweeter at the passengers inside ear. Is there anything bad about this. 

Also the imagines aren't set in stone because there are some voces on ebay atm and if I can snag those it wont be an insane price difference because I will be selling the crossovers(thats if anyone buys them lol)


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## Serieus

SViglienzone4 said:


> I like the answer I think your bringing me back down to earth and I am contemplating maybe getting the imagines and leaving my system at a 2 way. So I think I will mount the imagines in the kickpanels (on axis by the sounds of what you said but is off axis that far behind in SQ?) the Tweeters definately will be in the a-pillars and I was curious how you mounted yours. I like my truck being a 2-seater and was thinking of aiming the right tweeter at the drivers inside ear and the left tweeter at the passengers inside ear. Is there anything bad about this.
> 
> Also the imagines aren't set in stone because there are some voces on ebay atm and if I can snag those it wont be an insane price difference because I will be selling the crossovers(thats if anyone buys them lol)


i have my mids mounted off axis in the door running full range -- i would imagine that, depending on where you cross them over, on-axis would be a bit better because of beaming, but i suppose it depends on your car. the tweeters are mounted on my a-pillars with the angle mounts that they come with and they're basically pointed at the opposite side's headrest (i.e. driver side tweeter pointing at passenger head rest and vice-versa) and i really enjoy them. i plan to make pods aiming them essentially the same way, just to clean up the look.

i have pretty minimal eq, as well. with no eq they're good, but i like the general sound of the pioneer auto-eq, and then raise the sub level and/or sub frequencies on the eq since it makes it pretty low for driving. the rest of my eq settings are just to help center the stage.

be careful with the pioneer auto-ta if you use it. i moved my seat position the other day and reran the auto-eq/ta and couldn't get any bass, disabled the auto-ta and it all came back so it definitely had a lot of phase issues. never had that any of the other times i ran it so i'm not sure what happened, lol.

careful with fakes on ebay, otherwise i've heard good things about the voces and it was one of the sets i was interested in before i bought the imagines. couldn't find a whole lot of reviews though whereas reviews for the imagines are all over the place and are known to sound great.

i think one of my favorite parts of the set is the sound signature -- it's very neutral and easy to shape to whatever you like, whereas a set with bright/harsh tweeters are very hard to tame and so on. very versatile 

i figure i should mention this as well: one of the downsides of having the mid playing up so high is that it will drag the stage down. like i posted above, i run my mids full range like they were designed for and have the tweeter at 6k/6db slope. it raised the stage, not quite as much as my previous set (massive audio ck6) which was crossed over at 3.15k with 24db slopes, but it is at the dash in my car. your mileage may vary and i'm sure it's possible to get the stage nice and high without using the same or even similar settings as me, but i'm not sure how to do it and in the end these are the settings that i've found myself happy with. your mileage may vary


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## SViglienzone4

Serieus said:


> i have my mids mounted off axis in the door running full range -- i would imagine that, depending on where you cross them over, on-axis would be a bit better because of beaming, but i suppose it depends on your car. the tweeters are mounted on my a-pillars with the angle mounts that they come with and they're basically pointed at the opposite side's headrest (i.e. driver side tweeter pointing at passenger head rest and vice-versa) and i really enjoy them. i plan to make pods aiming them essentially the same way, just to clean up the look.
> 
> i have pretty minimal eq, as well. with no eq they're good, but i like the general sound of the pioneer auto-eq, and then raise the sub level and/or sub frequencies on the eq since it makes it pretty low for driving. the rest of my eq settings are just to help center the stage.
> 
> be careful with the pioneer auto-ta if you use it. i moved my seat position the other day and reran the auto-eq/ta and couldn't get any bass, disabled the auto-ta and it all came back so it definitely had a lot of phase issues. never had that any of the other times i ran it so i'm not sure what happened, lol.
> 
> careful with fakes on ebay, otherwise i've heard good things about the voces and it was one of the sets i was interested in before i bought the imagines. couldn't find a whole lot of reviews though whereas reviews for the imagines are all over the place and are known to sound great.
> 
> i think one of my favorite parts of the set is the sound signature -- it's very neutral and easy to shape to whatever you like, whereas a set with bright/harsh tweeters are very hard to tame and so on. very versatile
> 
> i figure i should mention this as well: one of the downsides of having the mid playing up so high is that it will drag the stage down. like i posted above, i run my mids full range like they were designed for and have the tweeter at 6k/6db slope. it raised the stage, not quite as much as my previous set (massive audio ck6) which was crossed over at 3.15k with 24db slopes, but it is at the dash in my car. your mileage may vary and i'm sure it's possible to get the stage nice and high without using the same or even similar settings as me, but i'm not sure how to do it and in the end these are the settings that i've found myself happy with. your mileage may vary


Ya I have actually heard the voces in person it was just the mids and tweets and man do they bump. I will most likely be putting whatever mid i get in the kickpanel for the reason that my door would need to be cut to fit 6-1/2s but I will probably try setting em on a towel and aiming them on and off axis to see how they sound. its just if i end up with the voces i might purposely put them off axis so that i can keep them crossed low and just get 3.0s to play in the a pillars for staging, but that will be later down the road lol.


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## avanti1960

having lived with the imagine woofers for quite a while now i am very familiar with them and know exactly how to tune them to sound the best to my preferences. 
they play low enough to blend extremely well with a subwoofer when crossed at 80Hz. the bass is nearly smooth and has great impact. 
crossing at 63Hz is not a good idea for some music- jazz bass for example. even with 150watts and top notch door and baffle work, they struggle to provide clean output at this frequency. 
as for the higher end, i am a very critical listener and in my car i simply cannot cross them any higher than 800 Hz 24db. they sound OK, but there is noticeable distortion when compared to not crossing them that high and letting the midrange drivers do the work. 
so basically in a three way system, i would have to say this is an excellent midbass driver. 
The question is- assuming one buys these only for the midbass for use in a three-way system, like I did-

Is there a better 6.5" driver with more bass and impact available for 300 bucks a pair? again- no extended range needed- strictly in a three way crossing no higher than 800Hz. 
what 6.5 has better midbass in a car door for a buck 50 each? 
PS- exodus anarchy does not count- they are too deep and out of business.


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## therapture

I have been modeling and testing my Imagines a bit more, playing around with the crossover points and slopes. I have been using the same tune for quite a few weeks now and I seem to be having really good results with new setting of 82hz/12db highpass over the old 75hz/24db, both BW. Not sure if WinISD even applies, but I modeled them in my doors @75w each. I see less excursion and flatter output, as well as better group delay? Testing in the car seems to have the midbass impact from before, but cleaner, I believe due to me overdriving them a little too hard down low. I need to get a mic session in on the system again with REQ and see what is going on, but I think I like it. I still love these drivers.


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## therapture

avanti1960 said:


> having lived with the imagine woofers for quite a while now i am very familiar with them and know exactly how to tune them to sound the best to my preferences.
> they play low enough to blend extremely well with a subwoofer when crossed at 80Hz. the bass is nearly smooth and has great impact.
> crossing at 63Hz is not a good idea for some music- jazz bass for example. even with 150watts and top notch door and baffle work, they struggle to provide clean output at this frequency.
> .


Agree on the jazz bass, try some Diana Krall for you guys that think your midbasses are up to the test...that standup bass is no joke haha.

This song on the cd I have "The Very Best of Diana Krall" works my Imagines hard at high volume, especially on the initial bass solo, it brought out some install issues I had to fix:

Diana krall - All Or Nothing At All (Studio version) - YouTube

I have finally settled on a 77hz/48db linkwitz filter, and I have good output that blends nicely into the sub. I have worked my ass off on my doors, deadening, fixing rattles, stiffening the baffle, etc., and it is paying off in spades. It sounds like I have a small sub in the center of my dash.

Another fantastic song by her: diana krall temptation - YouTube


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## 12v Electronics

Got a deal on a set if you don't need grilles. Otherwise brand new. 

OPEN BOX- Imagine I61-2V2 6.5" Component / Coaxial Speaker Set - 12v Electronics


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## BKLYNG

can the hat imagines tweeter play at 4k


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## BKLYNG

can the hat imagines mid lpf play 2.5 24db slope my midbass is in bottom of door tweets in sail panal at 4k 24db slope mid hpf 80hz 24db slope subs 63hz 24db slope


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## slowrey

Question for you audiophiles. I have a F150 Super Crew with HAT Imagine I-61-2's in the front. I'm looking to put some speakers in the rear. Would you recommed Mirus 5x7's, 5.5's or 6.5's? Would I mess with my sound using the cheaper rears?


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## 12v Electronics

slowrey said:


> Question for you audiophiles. I have a F150 Super Crew with HAT Imagine I-61-2's in the front. I'm looking to put some speakers in the rear. Would you recommed Mirus 5x7's, 5.5's or 6.5's? Would I mess with my sound using the cheaper rears?


Tonality wise, the Mirus are very close to the Imagines with a bit less power handling. They would be a great addition if you want rear speakers. I'd do 5x7's since they should fit. Otherwise we have Ford adaptors for 6.5's in stock and you will get a discount if you order them together. 

Let me know if you decide to go that route and I will tell you how to get the discount.


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## slowrey

12v Electronics said:


> Tonality wise, the Mirus are very close to the Imagines with a bit less power handling. They would be a great addition if you want rear speakers. I'd do 5x7's since they should fit. Otherwise we have Ford adaptors for 6.5's in stock and you will get a discount if you order them together.
> 
> Let me know if you decide to go that route and I will tell you how to get the discount.


Okay so I know that the Mirus 5x7's are a drop fit but if I were to go round instead of oval would you recommend the 6.5's over the 5.5's? I'm trying to replace my factory Sony on a budget so I can't afford Imagine 6.5's in the rear and looking for the best deal possible but at a good sound. BTW my daughter who is 3 sits in the back seat 95% of the time.


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## 12v Electronics

5x7 vs 6.5" have roughly the same come area. Go with the 5x7's if they are drop in. No need to spend the money on adaptors. 

And no difference in sound despite what you may read round vs oval.


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## Vadim

Who runs the 6.5" mid driver without a lowpass filter?

I know it is designed that way, but reading this thread and forum some say the midbass driver sounds just fine rolling off naturally while others say it needs a lowpass filter.

I know it has already been answered both ways, but I would appreciate hearing more thoughts on this.


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## Vadim

^anyone? 

I notice that Audiofrog's coaxial speakers have LP and HP filters tucked into the basket. Pioneer has done this also. 

Just curious, do the TEMPO ULTRA INTEGRA speakers have the midrange low-passed?


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