# Who still makes a good SQ amp?



## yippee

Pretty simple. Who still makes a good SQ amp these days? The answer doesn't seem so simple, so I'm looking forward to seeing what you guys all have to say. I've been trying to do some research on the matter. I find some info saying x brand is great, then I find info saying x brand sucks, old brand x was awesome. Then I move on to brand y. Find info saying brand y is great, followed by info saying brand y is awful. So, I just want to know your opinions on what brands are still making good SQ amps, or if I'm barking up the wrong tree and need to look at some older amps. Let me know what you guys think.

Thanks


----------



## knever3

You would be hard pressed to hear someone say that Zapco Z-lx and the Phoenix Gold Elite series of amps are poor performers. I would regard Tru billet stage 1-4 in this discussion also. 

SQ isn't always the sum of its parts, but most of the time. SQ is also quite subjective, amps have individual sonic signatures and there is always budget concerns. If you just want to know what amps are good just for argument sake let the show begin. 

In my humble experience with amps nothing has surpassed my beloved Zapco Studio amp line.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

JL HD and XD for fullrange D. Then your typical higher end a/b amps like Mosconi ZERO, Sinfoni, Helix, Zapco, and the list goes on and on. However, after running the JL XD series I can't think of a good reason to go back to a/b amps. And I used to be a diehard a/b guy even on subs. Used to run the Mosconi One series amps. They weren't anything special though.

Now, you will see people post in this thread that a watt is a watt. TOTAL BS to a point. As long as the amp is of a good design and quality parts are used that's all that really matters in the big picture. Beyond that you're just splitting hairs. The biggest issues I've had with cheaply built amps is from what seems to be a sagging power supply. I've had a quality amp rated for way less power blow the doors off of a cheaply made amp rated for a lot more. The cheaply made amp could probably do rated power for a split second, but that's about it.


----------



## yippee

Very good start here. Zapco is one of the amps I was actually considering. I was eyeballing the Z series, LX line. I decided I would look up some more opinions about them, and that's when I stumbled across some Zapco bashing. Company sold to someone else, internals looking like cheapo chinese amps, not being the "good old Zapco quality" type stuff. After reading all that it kind of got me rethinking the idea. Seems like a lot of people had good things to say about the LX series, then I found some forum talk bashing them, which kind of scared me off. I just want to make sure to get a good amp, by a good company, that is going to sound GOOD. Definitely some good info here, with some other brands to do some reading on, looking at specs, etc. I definitely appreciate the help, and certainly encourage anymore opinions of info.


----------



## knever3

When a company changes hands people are always going to like the way it was and the products they put out. Truth is if a company doesn't evolve they will die. This means changing up the way they do things which means shipping manufacturing overseas to be competitive or a number of other paths. That being said, there is nothing wrong with that if their products stay competitive as in this case Zapcos' have. Sure the company isn't based out of Southern California, but that doesn't mean their product has gone down hill. In my opinion their product lineup has tremendous breadth, if you look at their offerings for nearly every budget and discerning listener you have a boat load of options. They do take their time (JL comes to mind) before releasing a new product and that has turned a few off just because they're impatient. 

Good things come to people who do their diligence and research so you are on the right path. If Zapco as a brand doesn't sit well with you even though I fully endorse their product, maybe another will. 

So I have to ask, are you really researching on buying some amps or are you just starting a discussion to find a white coat company with no black marks?


----------



## yippee

Valid points for sure. I was just fact checking with the people who have much more knowledge than I. Sometimes that happens, where a company "sells out" and someone takes over and downgrades the product and runs the company into the ground. I just wanted to make sure that wasn't the case. I'll be the first to admit I have hardly any knowledge in the car audio world, so I wanted to get some info from those who know better. Zapco is definitely on my radar for sure, but I was just looking to see what others had to recommend as a good amp for SQ. So far both answers I've gotten have included Zapco amps, so it sounds like it's a pretty well regarded product still, which is good.

I'm not sure what you mean about "trying to find a white coat company with no black marks", I'm not familiar with that saying. If you're asking if I'm really looking for an amp to buy or if I'm just asking for the sake of asking, I'm definitely looking to buy an amp. I just wanted to get some feedback from people that have a greater knowledge of car audio products than I do.


----------



## kenyer

Ok so here is my take on SQ amps..I have 2 Subaru Outbacks I drive 1.5 hrs one way to work and back. A 2004 and a 1999 model. Both cars have HAT Clarus tweeters and crossovers, both cars carry HAT Mirrus speakers in the rear doors. The 04 car has 6.5" Clarus in the front doors while the 99 car has 6.5" Imagines. The 04 has a Pioneer DEH p800PRS head unit while the 99 has a Alpine CDE HD149BT. Both cars have Dyna Mat on the front doors also, For amps I wanted to try old and new so in the 04 car I bought a new JL Audio HD 600/4 to power the front and rear speakers. This car also has a Illusion Audio C10XL sub with Audison AV DUE amp. The sound is awesome with really good soundstage for a car and a warm easy to listen to sound. The 99 car has Linear Power 2202IQ for the fronts and Linear Power 2002 for the rear. I had both amps gone thru and upgraded by RAY at TIPS. I have a HAT 12" Clarus sub for this car but haven't found the amp I want yet. But anyway, the difference in sound between this car and the 04 is significant. The Linear Power amps are playing thru the Alpine head unit and they don't have crossovers of their own so the sound is much brighter and lively. With both systems you are very aware of the quality of each recording. This is new tech class D vs high end class A/B. I guess I'll agree that finally class D amps can be equal to class A/B amps in SQ. BTW, I mostly listen to Pandora through a I Phone 5. It's connected with RCA jack on the Pioneer 800PRS in the 04 car and USB with Alpine in the 99 car. Hope this helps and while I'm here if anyone has a really good sub amp for sale I am on the look out for one


----------



## fcarpio

Sound wise I've had great results with the NVX JAD amps. Power wise they are more powerful than my beloved DLS Ultimate monsters and definitely more powerful than my pair of Helix Precision amps. The little 5 channel NVX is even more powerful than my PPI 600.2/404.2 combo. I did have issues with the volume knob on my NVX monoblock, but I think it was user error. To me the main deal when it comes to amps is build quality. I don't know much about electronics but based on what I hear here and in other places it seems the NVX (Made in China) amps don't have the greatest build quality, but I may be wrong. DLS Ultimate (Swedish deign made in Taiwan), Helix Precision (All German) and PPI Art Series (Made in the USA) seem to be REALLY well built amps. You pick your poison.

Then is the "other" thing that I am still skeptical about, but I am believing more and more with time. Not to start an argument but all amps sound the same (again, not trying to start and argument about this, if you want to argue go to the existing thread that talks about this as I do not want to hijack this thread). This has been my experience and I have no proof, but they do sound all the same, at least I can't tell them apart. To me the only difference between similar amplifiers is the power. Some are going to be more powerful than others. And as far as power goes with the amps I know, class D amps are taking the cake right now.

BTW, since *kenyer* asked, I have an NVX JAD 1200.1 mono amp for sale in the classifieds if interested. This is the most powerful amp I have ever owned. I have all the power I need with the gain at about 11AM and it goes all the way to almost 3PM (2:30PM) without clipping.


----------



## MrGreen83

Hillbilly SQ said:


> JL HD and XD for fullrange D. Then your typical higher end a/b amps like Mosconi ZERO, Sinfoni, Helix, Zapco, and the list goes on and on. However, after running the JL XD series I can't think of a good reason to go back to a/b amps. And I used to be a diehard a/b guy even on subs. Used to run the Mosconi One series amps. They weren't anything special though.
> 
> Now, you will see people post in this thread that a watt is a watt. TOTAL BS to a point. As long as the amp is of a good design and quality parts are used that's all that really matters in the big picture. Beyond that you're just splitting hairs. The biggest issues I've had with cheaply built amps is from what seems to be a sagging power supply. I've had a quality amp rated for way less power blow the doors off of a cheaply made amp rated for a lot more. The cheaply made amp could probably do rated power for a split second, but that's about it.




Have to agree on the XD line. They may be Class D but they sound amazing. I almost prefer it over my HD....and that's a big statement considering the price point difference 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tRidiot

Can't speak to the JL stuff, but I CAN to Zapco. I've run Zapco off and on for literally DECADES... first Zap was in the early 90s, the legenday Z-series that was Symbilink-only. Z100s, Z200, and even the top-tier Z600 used in Zausmer's BMW. They were used in many, MANY world-championship IASCA SQ systems.

I have run the DC series which are great amps, though a bit touchy and finicky.

Now running the Z-series in my Tahoe and they have ridiculous power. The DC-series in my 370Z. I can't recommend the newer Z-series enough, and the DCs have been great, too, although, like I said, a bit more finicky.

I absolutely believe you cannot go wrong with Zapco.

I've run tons of amps over the years - Sundown, Ampman, Zapco, Planet Audio, Atomic, RD, DD, Blau, ESX, Rockford, and many more I can't even remember at the moment in my whiskey-induced haze. I would spend the money on Zapco every. single. time. No reservations.


----------



## knever3

yippee said:


> I'm not sure what you mean about "trying to find a white coat company with no black marks", I'm not familiar with that saying. If you're asking if I'm really looking for an amp to buy or if I'm just asking for the sake of asking, I'm definitely looking to buy an amp. I just wanted to get some feedback from people that have a greater knowledge of car audio products than I do.



You answered that exactly how I asked the question. I wanted to qualify your intentions because this topic usually brings out a lot of hurt feelings. So there are many other constraints on how to select an amp.

Size
Power
Channels
Impedance of loads
Cost
To a lesser extent, aesthetics

The one I want to try for a number of reasons is Biketronics, 180w per 4 channels in a 5"x7" package. They have a lifetime warranty, try that with any manufacture today, and it's made in Idaho.


----------



## digdug18

I've always like Zed Audio myself.


----------



## Viggen

To me asking for a great SQ amp is like asking what's a great car

- how many seats / how many channels
- how much money are we talking Ferrari + money or Fiesta money?
- how much room or space do you have 


I used two Phoenix Gold elite amps, loved them except for the space they took up! I didn't really care when they were in my last car however my present Jeep Wrangler and Mazda Miata, not sure it will fit. 

There are lots of quality brands out there, but if you want specific answers possibly throw out more info. Speakers you have or plan to have, if you have room for say two 28lb 2ft long elite amps (or similar A/B amp), if you electrical system can take it  and also your budget


----------



## grinkeeper

I read a review of the Zuki Audio Eleets 4-Channel Amplifier








here is the Link : Zuki Audio Eleets 4-Channel Amp Review

I can’t speak from personal experience but this is a great review and shows some great results.


----------



## rton20s




----------



## sqnut

What is a SQ amp? An amp that adds SQ to your sound? Such a thing doesn't exist.


----------



## rton20s

sqnut said:


> What is a SQ amp? An amp that adds SQ to your sound? Such a thing doesn't exist.


You know it is SQ, because it is in the name. 
Image Dynamics SQ Series


----------



## FordEscape

Hillbilly SQ said:


> .... TOTAL BS to a point .....


Gotta love an emphatic oxymoron

:laugh:


----------



## High Resolution Audio

sqnut said:


> What is a SQ amp? An amp that adds SQ to your sound? Such a thing doesn't exist.


But ohhhh, my friend, you are oh so wrong!

I can attest that amplifiers sound different. Just today, I had one of my two Soundstream Class A II amplifiers go down. I use two......one on each tweeter. I replaced the two soundstreams with one Boston Acoustics Class AB( made in Italy at the STEG factory) same power 100 watts per channel. I immediately noticed a difference in the top end. Easiest to tell with the cymbals. When a drumstick hits a cymbal there is the attack ( when the stick first hits the metal ) Then there is the sustain. The sustain is how long the ringing lasts before the note ends. The note hangs in the air longer with Class A technology. For me it was immediately noticeable and apparent. The attack was sharper and more piercing, and the sustain faded out in 1/2 the time. This subtle difference, for me, make the listening experience more pleasurable. It's like I'm listening to bits and pieces of the sound and not the entirety of it. Heck......if I cannot find another Class A II, I may even try a Milbert tube amp on my tweets. By the way, I noticed the same difference when I first switched to class A from class AB on the tweets. I could not hear any perceptible difference on the mid-range drivers from which I made the swap.


----------



## FordEscape

Time for some well-controlled blind testing.


----------



## Grindcore

Zapco&#55357;&#56396;


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

High Resolution Audio said:


> But ohhhh, my friend, you are oh so wrong!
> 
> I can attest that amplifiers sound different. Just today, I had one of my two Soundstream Class A II amplifiers go down. I use two......one on each tweeter. I replaced the two soundstreams with one Boston Acoustics Class AB( made in Italy at the STEG factory) same power 100 watts per channel. I immediately noticed a difference in the top end. Easiest to tell with the cymbals. When a drumstick hits a cymbal there is the attack ( when the stick first hits the metal ) Then there is the sustain. The sustain is how long the ringing lasts before the note ends. The note hangs in the air longer with Class A technology. For me it was immediately noticeable and apparent. The attack was sharper and more piercing, and the sustain faded out in 1/2 the time. This subtle difference, for me, make the listening experience more pleasurable. It's like I'm listening to bits and pieces of the sound and not the entirety of it. Heck......if I cannot find another Class A II, I may even try a Milbert tube amp on my tweets. By the way, I noticed the same difference when I first switched to class A from class AB on the tweets. I could not hear any perceptible difference on the mid-range drivers from which I made the swap.


The fact that you knew which amps were playing, and that there was such a huge time in between listening, makes the listening test flawed to the point of being unreliable.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The fact that you knew which amps were playing, and that there was such a huge time in between listening, makes the listening test flawed to the point of being unreliable.


Good for you.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Placebo effect or gains weren't the same. It is what it is.


----------



## Makky

yippee said:


> Very good start here. Zapco is one of the amps I was actually considering. I was eyeballing the *Z series, LX line*. I decided I would look up some more opinions about them, and that's when I stumbled across some Zapco bashing. Company sold to someone else, *internals looking like cheapo chinese amps, not being the "good old Zapco quality" type stuff*. After reading all that it kind of got me rethinking the idea. Seems like a lot of people had good things to say about the LX series, then I found some forum talk bashing them, which kind of scared me off. I just want to make sure to get a good amp, by a good company, that is going to sound GOOD. Definitely some good info here, with some other brands to do some reading on, looking at specs, etc. I definitely appreciate the help, and certainly encourage anymore opinions of info.


I have a total boner for my Z-150.4 LX.

It's been a little over a year now I think and I've not had any issues and am very satisfied with it in the SQ department. As for your internals criticism I just can't comment on that as I'm not that technically inclined when it comes to parts. However, time will tell on its reliability or lack of....

Hope that helps!.


----------



## sqnut

High Resolution Audio said:


> But ohhhh, my friend, you are oh so wrong!
> 
> I can attest that amplifiers sound different. Just today, I had one of my two Soundstream Class A II amplifiers go down. I use two......one on each tweeter. I replaced the two soundstreams with one Boston Acoustics Class AB( made in Italy at the STEG factory) same power 100 watts per channel. I immediately noticed a difference in the top end. Easiest to tell with the cymbals. When a drumstick hits a cymbal there is the attack ( when the stick first hits the metal ) Then there is the sustain. The sustain is how long the ringing lasts before the note ends. The note hangs in the air longer with Class A technology. For me it was immediately noticeable and apparent. The attack was sharper and more piercing, and the sustain faded out in 1/2 the time. This subtle difference, for me, make the listening experience more pleasurable. It's like I'm listening to bits and pieces of the sound and not the entirety of it. Heck......if I cannot find another Class A II, I may even try a Milbert tube amp on my tweets. By the way, I noticed the same difference when I first switched to class A from class AB on the tweets. I could not hear any perceptible difference on the mid-range drivers from which I made the swap.


You're a buddy and I respect your passion and ears in equal parts, but I have been in this hobby long enough to know to know that amps don't alter your sq levels. On an objective level, a difference in gain levels will make a huge difference even if you listen at the same volume and on a subjective level, perception bias is a reality in this hobby. SQ comes from the tune, not the equipment.


----------



## Elektra

sqnut said:


> You're a buddy and I respect your passion and ears in equal parts, but I have been in this hobby long enough to know to know that amps don't alter your sq levels. On an objective level, a difference in gain levels will make a huge difference even if you listen at the same volume and on a subjective level, perception bias is a reality in this hobby. SQ comes from the tune, not the equipment.




You are wrong - I have the Brax MX2 and 4 and Thesis DUE - even my wife who gives 2 ****s about audio picked up the differences between the Brax and Thesis....

It took her a whole 30secs to come to the same conclusion I did after hours of listening 

Maybe you listening to amps that are similar in components....

But I absolutely can hear the difference between amps especially the ones I have...

But who am I at the end of the day.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

sqnut said:


> You're a buddy and I respect your passion and ears in equal parts, but I have been in this hobby long enough to know to know that amps don't alter your sq levels. On an objective level, a difference in gain levels will make a huge difference even if you listen at the same volume and on a subjective level, perception bias is a reality in this hobby. SQ comes from the tune, not the equipment.




I'll agree that if your hopeless at tuning and installing even a million $ system will be average sounding 

The statement that equipment makes no difference in SQ is a typical installers attitude.... buy your gear I tell you to buy and let me install it or it will sound crap no matter what you buy is the impression I am getting - some of the best installers I know are also the best at making you feel your a complete failure in life your better off buying a gun and shooting yourself and do everyone a favor...... 

If I buy Brax MX amps Sony Hi-Res HU and Utopia Kit 7 speakers proper cables - your saying that I'll have the exact same result if I purchased a $100 Pioneer HU with some blaster amps and lightning Audio speakers?

Some person tuning and building both cars? 

You really think I won't get the first setup to sound better? With my tuning knowledge being equal on both cars? 

Come on... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Elektra said:


> I'll agree that if your hopeless at tuning and installing even a million $ system will be average sounding
> 
> The statement that equipment makes no difference in SQ is a typical installers attitude.... buy your gear I tell you to buy and let me install it or it will sound crap no matter what you buy is the impression I am getting - some of the best installers I know are also the best at making you feel your a complete failure in life your better off buying a gun and shooting yourself and do everyone a favor......
> 
> If I buy Brax MX amps Sony Hi-Res HU and Utopia Kit 7 speakers proper cables - your saying that I'll have the exact same result if I purchased a $100 Pioneer HU with some blaster amps and lightning Audio speakers?
> 
> Some person tuning and building both cars?
> 
> You really think I won't get the first setup to sound better? With my tuning knowledge being equal on both cars?
> 
> Come on...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If your listening tests were not totally blind tests with instantaneous switching between amps, then they ate by nature flawed. Period. 

No one is talking about speakers here. But, given the same speakers, different but equally powerful amps, and different cable, and equal processors, I could absolutely make the two sound indistinguishable.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> If your listening tests were not totally blind tests with instantaneous switching between amps, then they ate by nature flawed. Period.
> 
> No one is talking about speakers here. But, given the same speakers, different but equally powerful amps, and different cable, and equal processors, I could absolutely make the two sound indistinguishable.


Also did SINGLE BLIND testing at home with Boston Acoustics Voyager Pro speakers, with Marantz SR880 Receiver that has pre-amp outputs as well as a built in amp.. Took the same signal from an Oppo BDP95 and sent the signal to a Haffler DH500 amp and to the marantz amp. MY HELPER switched speaker leads back and forth which took all of 5 seconds, (not instantaneous as you claim needs be done)

The sound-stage was different between amps. Haffler AMP was more two dimensional. Marantz amp more three dimensional. There was more space around each instrument. More Focus and dimension.

There is more to sound than just frequency response. You, either have equipment that is low resolution and incapable of revealing differences, or your hearing is unable to pick up subtle differences. One or the other.

And your mindset will never allow you to hear actual differences, even if others could in the same room under the same conditions, because your mind is made up..........also the placebo effect.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Elektra said:


> You are wrong - I have the Brax MX2 and 4 and Thesis DUE - even my wife who gives 2 ****s about audio picked up the differences between the Brax and Thesis....
> 
> It took her a whole 30secs to come to the same conclusion I did after hours of listening
> 
> Maybe you listening to amps that are similar in components....
> 
> But I absolutely can hear the difference between amps especially the ones I have...
> 
> But who am I at the end of the day....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Can you describe the differences you found? Did you both prefer the Brax?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

High Resolution Audio said:


> Also did SINGLE BLIND testing at home with Boston Acoustics Voyager Pro speakers, with Marantz SR880 Receiver that has pre-amp outputs as well as a built in amp.. Took the same signal from an Oppo BDP95 and sent the signal to a Haffler DH500 amp and to the marantz amp. MY HELPER switched speaker leads back and forth which took all of 5 seconds, (not instantaneous as you claim needs be done)
> 
> The sound-stage was different between amps. Haffler AMP was more two dimensional. Marantz amp more three dimensional. There was more space around each instrument. More Focus and dimension.
> 
> There is more to sound than just frequency response. You, either have equipment that is low resolution and incapable of revealing differences, or your hearing is unable to pick up subtle differences. One or the other.
> 
> And your attitude will never allow you to hear actual differences, even if others could in the same room under the same conditions, because your mind is made up..........also the placebo effect.


Typical magical audiophile response, either your gear isn't good enough or your ears arent.

Let's first clarify the hearing comment. When's the last time you had a hearing test? I have them every year. My hearing is far above average for my age, (which is 33). On top of that, I played the violin for a number of years, where I was often able to pick up songs by ear after hearing them just once, without the sheet music.

Furthermore, and this is a big one. How do you expect to hear the tiny differences in amps when your speakers are 10x the weak link that your amps are. And that's not a dig at your speakers, that's just the FACT that speaker are always a far larger weak link than any of the other electrical components in the chain.


----------



## lizardking

When people spend stupid money on amps thinking they will somehow gain SQ continues to baffle me to this day. Okay...not really. People can be manipulated into believing anything!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

lizardking said:


> When people spend stupid money on amps thinking they will somehow gain SQ continues to baffle me to this day. Okay...not really. People can be manipulated into believing anything!


Sadly, it's easy for me to see people being duped into believing in the sq properties of amps, considering that some people can be duped into believing that taping bags of pebbles to their wires improves sound.

Just think about this. It's 2016. And the number of people that refuse to believe that the earth is spherical is going up.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Can we all agree that as long as the amp(s) being used are of good design and quality that the results will be at least similar with all other things being equal? I've learned that once you get into higher quality amps the difference between them becomes a moot point. Now, I may have already mentioned in this thread (not going back to check) that I heard a huge difference between the JL XD 800/8 and my pair of Mosconi One 120.4's it replaced. Mosconi was your average middle of the road a/b amp with the typical Orca price tag. Nothing special about the amp. I had 120x6 plus 340x1. With the 800/8 I had 75x6 plus 200x1. What I lacked in output I gained in what sounded like much better control of the speakers. I'm not the only one to say this about the current generation of JL class D amps. I started to hear faint details I had never heard before. And I still had more than enough output. After my experience with the XD I realized that for my needs the Mosconi wasn't near the amp the JL is. I'm sure the ZERO series and even the AS series are tons better, but justifying the price tag of them and the room they take up just isn't possible.


----------



## Elektra

High Resolution Audio said:


> Can you describe the differences you found? Did you both prefer the Brax?




The Brax initially was being played at home off my Monitor Audio home floor standers....

I used a Sony Hi-Res player as a Preamp and my IPhone as the source and used Audioquest Sky RCA cables and Audioquest speaker cables

Off the Monitor audio speakers the Brax sounded weird like it over emphasized the high end of the speakers - honestly I did not like it..

The Thesis sounded much more compliant and warm easier to listen to... at this point I wanted to sell the Brax amps (3 of them) and get more Thesis amps - I even negotiated for a HV Venti 

But I read an article on the HV that speaker choice is important as you need to match the equipment.... so I have a BNIB Focal kit 7 at home so I used home made enclosure and installed the speakers (I used the same enclosure to run in my other set of kit 7's so the volume etc was worked out previously) played the speakers for about 24 hours non stop to run them in a little then I tried the Brax and the Thesis again...

From previous experience the Kit 7 was much better than my Monitor Audio's - the match with the MX amps and Focal speakers really is a match made in heaven that over emphasized top end was just perfectly managed by the kit 7 the amp changed from weird sounding to absolutely magnificent - the improvement was something that could not be given as a % is was totally different.

The Thesis didn't benefit as the Brax did the Brax stepped it up to another level over the Thesis - it was more dynamic clearer, the sense of realism was better the separation could not be compared as it was so much better also the brax had a bass reproduction that you almost don't notice but you can feel it - it was as if the bass was more accurately reproduced more control... it was also was quieter between music passages...

It sounded like a serious home system... hence the Thesis is up for sale the Brax is going nowhere... 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Sadly, it's easy for me to see people being duped into believing in the sq properties of amps, considering that some people can be duped into believing that taping bags of pebbles to their wires improves sound.
> 
> 
> 
> Just think about this. It's 2016. And the number of people that refuse to believe that the earth is spherical is going up.




Dude.. just because you can't hear the difference doesn't mean others can....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

lizardking said:


> When people spend stupid money on amps thinking they will somehow gain SQ continues to baffle me to this day. Okay...not really. People can be manipulated into believing anything!




Let me tell you - people who save up for a $3000+ amp are not stupid - these people need to be convinced to pony up - which entails numerous listening sessions etc...

Trust me judging by the lack of sales here people are hard pressed to pony up for anything...

Hearing is believing so they say....




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> If your listening tests were not totally blind tests with instantaneous switching between amps, then they ate by nature flawed. Period.
> 
> 
> 
> No one is talking about speakers here. But, given the same speakers, different but equally powerful amps, and different cable, and equal processors, I could absolutely make the two sound indistinguishable.




Well - it was mentioned "equipment" and only tuning does the trick...

It was not limited to amps only...

What people don't realize is that today the majority of amps are actually all the same - they made in the same Chinese factory using the same board layouts just different color chassis and a few bling eye candy parts to distinguish it from another brand...

Take a look at the GZ Reference amps - how much are those $2000+? How about I tell you I can get 99% the same amp for $400... 

Nowadays there are very few manufacturers and more distributors - GZ makes nothing! So it's a distribution company?

I can name 5 or 6 companies that use the same boards...

Most manufacturers/distributors products essentially use the same parts for audio section so essentially if your listening to amp A which has Elna Simic 2 caps for audio and LT opamps and amp B uses the same parts - the differences will only appear in the way the boards carry the capacitance for the power supply which will tell you how much control the amp has in the bottom end... mids and tweeters should sound similar..

Here I agree you will not hear a big enough difference to tell them apart - unless you have a trained ear and actually know what to listen for...

The difference is in the the way they market the product - like GZ will rate there Ref amps at 1% THD so the power is increased - this distinguishes the product from its clone who measures there product at say 0.04% THD so obviously the power numbers are less 

Brax is one of the few companies that manufacture there own products so the board layouts are totally different and the components used are also different - therefore they do sound different...

How many of these so called blind tests actually went into the technical aspects of the product like studying the components used for starters as I promise you just by looking at the board layouts you could have an educated opinion on how they will sound to each other without even powering them up.. i mean if they all used the same audio caps and opamps and have similar built in capacitance - your wasting your time and energy as they will sound almost identical to each other baring a few differences which you need to clean your ear wax to hear them

This could save you a lot of time.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Elektra said:


> Dude.. just because you can't hear the difference doesn't mean others can....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just because you think you are hearing a difference, doesn't mean you actually are.


----------



## Elektra

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Just because you think you are hearing a difference, doesn't mean you actually are.




Funny thing is I can - therefore there is a difference... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> If your listening tests were not totally blind tests with instantaneous switching between amps, then they ate by nature flawed. Period.
> 
> 
> 
> No one is talking about speakers here. But, given the same speakers, different but equally powerful amps, and different cable, and equal processors, I could absolutely make the two sound indistinguishable.




That's a typical installers CV buy the cheapest amp and spend $1000's on my expertise - end of the day just like the differences claimed between 2 amps is just a placebo effect - so is the claims of a big talking installer... he is the best installer therefore the car will be the best?

Nonsense....

You can tune to a point beyond that it's impossible you hit equipment limits - you end up tuning for months chasing a rainbow and it's pot of gold....

I once had a car with very good expensive equipment... with no tuning it compared to a car that had lessor equipment who had a owner who spent 100's of hours tuning over 3 years - I saw his EQ graph and he had 100 times more EQ than me 

This guy had the a undefeated car for 4 years - only lost once in 4 years - so it was a good car...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

I'm curious as to what the GZ ref clone is. You can pm me if you like, and I promise to stay tight lipped.


----------



## cmusic

Back in the '90s there was a guy named Richard Clark. He's still around and owns a large CD manufacturing company in North Carolina, along with the largest collection of Buick Grand Nationals in the world. But in the late '80s and '90s he was a guru of car audio. Richard is a very technical person who relies on science, not myth, to prove his ideas. He and along with his friend, David Navone, created the company Autosound 2000 and gave many technical lectures to car audio installers and salespeople about the truths of car audio. I've got a 6 inch think notebook with all of his technical notes at home. A lot of what he was teaching seemed like snake oil to some people but was all backed by science. Subjects like as proving an installer did not need to run the ground wire from an amp all the way back to the battery and adding a large capacitor to the electrical system while using non-regulated amps helped the sound quality seemed like he was making stuff up but he was always scientifically legit. 

His most famous "trick" was the $10,000 amp challenge. The hook was that you bring him two amps of your choosing and he would conduct a double blind listening test and if you could pick out which amp was playing ten times in a row, he would give you $10,000. Hundreds and hundreds of people were said to have taken the challenge and lost. However if you read the rules closely and had a scientific background, anyone could see that this was a simple scientific test where every difference was eliminated down to where only one thing was being tested. All amps were gain matched to the same levels, crossovers bypassed, and even external equalizers installed in order to get the_ exact_ same frequency response out of each amp. What the listeners did not realize was the amps were not the item being tested, _it was the listener's hearing that was the remaining un-neutralized factor that was being tested._ I know of at least one person that passed the test and there has been several more people that have reportedly passed it too. The one guy I know said after the test Clark rechecked the amp's outputs and found that one amp's gain was about 1/4 dB louder than the other, and therefore Clark would not pay out the $10,000. 

My conclusions are after being in the car audio hobby for about 28 years and having owned, installed, and listened to hundreds of amps, _there are "real world" sonic differences in amps_. However when when subjected to scientific testing where amps are adjusted to have identical outputs, the differences can't be heard. And as we know, scientific testing does not happen every day and every moment in the real world.


----------



## Elektra

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I'm curious as to what the GZ ref clone is. You can pm me if you like, and I promise to stay tight lipped.




Harmotech H4, EOS AE-100F, Mercury Chrystal off the top of my head











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut

Elektra said:


> You are wrong - I have the Brax MX2 and 4 and Thesis DUE - even my wife who gives 2 ****s about audio picked up the differences between the Brax and Thesis....
> 
> It took her a whole 30secs to come to the same conclusion I did after hours of listening
> 
> Maybe you listening to amps that are similar in components....
> 
> But I absolutely can hear the difference between amps especially the ones I have...
> 
> But who am I at the end of the day....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Elektra said:


> I'll agree that if your hopeless at tuning and installing even a million $ system will be average sounding
> 
> The statement that equipment makes no difference in SQ is a typical installers attitude.... buy your gear I tell you to buy and let me install it or it will sound crap no matter what you buy is the impression I am getting - some of the best installers I know are also the best at making you feel your a complete failure in life your better off buying a gun and shooting yourself and do everyone a favor......
> 
> If I buy Brax MX amps Sony Hi-Res HU and Utopia Kit 7 speakers proper cables - your saying that I'll have the exact same result if I purchased a $100 Pioneer HU with some blaster amps and lightning Audio speakers?
> 
> Some person tuning and building both cars?
> 
> You really think I won't get the first setup to sound better? With my tuning knowledge being equal on both cars?
> 
> Come on...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Elektra said:


> Dude.. just because you can't hear the difference doesn't mean others can....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Elektra said:


> Let me tell you - people who save up for a $3000+ amp are not stupid - these people need to be convinced to pony up - which entails numerous listening sessions etc...
> 
> Trust me judging by the lack of sales here people are hard pressed to pony up for anything...
> 
> Hearing is believing so they say....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Just one word on 'hearing', In a car if you're constantly swapping equipment to get sq gains, then all that tells me is that you're not a very good tuner and nominal changes from swapping equipment are huge changes for you. 

For the record, I can tune what you would consider average or below equipment to blow away your five figure system tuned by you, and I mean blow it out of the water. There's nothing wrong with my ears, I spent six years tuning. So you have hot shot ears?

Harman How to Listen

Download this software developed by Harmon and go to band ID section, click on practice and set the eq to 24 bands at +/- 0.5 db resolution. Then take the test. How many times can you correctly identify the relevant band? At this resolution on my home 2 ch I can pick the frequency 3 times out of four and the fourth time I am within 1/3 oct of the actual frequency that is being cut or boosted. Don't worry about my ears, work on your tuning skills.

In a car good sound is all about timing and response, learn to tune and you'll save yourself a ton of cash. Also read up on perception bias. Feel free to vent cause I'm not going to say anything beyond this.

P.S. You can't be a good tuner till you accept that perception bias is a reality and you have to constantly check and recheck what you think is better or worse, isn't just your perception. Over the six years that I was tuning, I must have walked from my nightly tuning session thinking wow! I really nailed it, only to come back the next morning and think, WTF was I doing last night? What was I hearing?


----------



## Elektra

sqnut said:


> Just one word on 'hearing', In a car if you're constantly swapping equipment to get sq gains, then all that tells me is that you're not a very good tuner and nominal changes from swapping equipment are huge changes for you.
> 
> For the record, I can tune what you would consider average or below equipment to blow away your five figure system tuned by you, and I mean blow it out of the water. There's nothing wrong with my ears, I spent six years tuning. So you have hot shot ears?
> 
> Harman How to Listen
> 
> Download this software developed by Harmon and go to band ID section, click on practice and set the eq to 24 bands at +/- 0.5 db resolution. Then take the test. How many times can you correctly identify the relevant band? At this resolution on my home 2 ch I can pick the frequency 3 times out of four and the fourth time I am within 1/3 oct of the actual frequency that is being cut or boosted. Don't worry about my ears, work on your tuning skills.
> 
> In a car good sound is all about timing and response, learn to tune and you'll save yourself a ton of cash. Also read up on perception bias. Feel free to vent cause I'm not going to say anything beyond this.




I have trained ears - to a point... 

I never said amp swapping in a car... 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Elektra said:


> Funny thing is I can - therefore there is a difference...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The funny thing is you don't grasp that any difference you think you are hearing could be false. If someone hears ringing in their ears, does that mean the ringing is real? Or could it be something in their brain malfunctioning?


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

My hearing is considered "beat to ****" by a lot of people. I'm a pretty rough and rugged dude though.


----------



## Elektra

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The funny thing is you don't grasp that any difference you think you are hearing could be false. If someone hears ringing in their ears, does that mean the ringing is real? Or could it be something in their brain malfunctioning?




Ok I'll stick to "over priced makes no difference amp" you can sleep well at night knowing you saved a bundle on your cheap amps... 

I know I won't lose any sleep on mine... 

I have listened to them and they meet my requirements for my standards - if your standards are lower than mine then that's your problem...

It isn't mine... 

This discussion is the same as what came first the chicken or the egg and religion....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Lol, I love how you assume what level of equipment I have. Let me ask, when was the last time YOUR ears were tested?

Actually, I don't even need you to answer that. 

Let's look at the HAT L6SE. There are a lot of people who have said over the years that the L6SE is one of the most capable midbass drivers out there, even to the point of saying that it can be played down to 50hz with authority. These are people with multiple sound quality championships, people that a huge amount of people respect for their opinions on audio.

So when I got into audio, I bought a pair of L6SE's. This was before I really understood measurements. And as such, I trusted people who used their ears to quantify thing and we're respected in this field. 

But I heard something wrong with the speakers. I didn't think they sounded that good unless crossed at at least 80hz, and even better, 100hz. So whose ears were wrong?

I ended up sending my new L6SE's to he objectively tested. Turns out what I was hearing was real (and what other people weren't hearing actually existed). Turns out they are not a great midbass, but are a great midrange if crossed high enough. But by all means tell me my ears arent good enough to hear the difference.

And then there's the Kravchencko xbl tweeter. Supposed to be able to be crossed as low as 1600hz. It ships, and rave reviews start coming in from people crossing them at 1800 and 2000hz. So I try 2000hz with my pair, and cringe. I settle at 2500hz as the lowest acceptable crossover. Measurements afterwards show why. Distortion remains high until 2500hz. But my ears must suck right?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

And with that, I'm out of this thread until I get home from work.


Ps, many of those people that couldn't hear the blatant distortion from the speakers I listed, are ardent believers that they can hear large differences in amplifiers, despite the difference in amplifiers being miniscule in comparison to that of the speakers.


----------



## Elektra

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Lol, I love how you assume what level of equipment I have. Let me ask, when was the last time YOUR ears were tested?
> 
> Actually, I don't even need you to answer that.
> 
> Let's look at the HAT L6SE. There are a lot of people who have said over the years that the L6SE is one of the most capable midbass drivers out there, even to the point of saying that it can be played down to 50hz with authority. These are people with multiple sound quality championships, people that a huge amount of people respect for their opinions on audio.
> 
> So when I got into audio, I bought a pair of L6SE's. This was before I really understood measurements. And as such, I trusted people who used their ears to quantify thing and we're respected in this field.
> 
> But I heard something wrong with the speakers. I didn't think they sounded that good unless crossed at at least 80hz, and even better, 100hz. So whose ears were wrong?
> 
> I ended up sending my new L6SE's to he objectively tested. Turns out what I was hearing was real (and what other people weren't hearing actually existed). Turns out they are not a great midbass, but are a great midrange if crossed high enough. But by all means tell me my ears arent good enough to hear the difference.
> 
> And then there's the Kravchencko xbl tweeter. Supposed to be able to be crossed as low as 1600hz. It ships, and rave reviews start coming in from people crossing them at 1800 and 2000hz. So I try 2000hz with my pair, and cringe. I settle at 2500hz as the lowest acceptable crossover. Measurements afterwards show why. Distortion remains high until 2500hz. But my ears must suck right?




No - it means your ears are not agreeing with what other people are stating - perfectly normal - I listen to supposed champion cars and think WTF are they listening too?

I am dubious of other people's reviews - I prefer to try them myself. If I like them I'll use them if they don't appeal to me - I'll sell them....

Music is purely subjective and for me a personal affair - what I like and listen for is not what others my listen for ....

Buy equipment you like - I can bring you 100 reviews on the Focal Utopias being harsh and bright - but when I installed mine they were absolute butter - so I bought another 3 sets over time....

So must I believe the internet on Focal? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut

Forget everything else for a minute, we only 'hear a difference', based on differences in response, timing and phase, period. So either show me that two amps measure different on the three variables, or if it is a fourth variable, then just know our ears and brain aren't geared to hear it. There are no exceptions and this is where perception bias kicks in.

In any case, I don't want to 'hear' my uber expensive sq amp, I don't even want to 'hear' my pixie dusted, magical but astronomically expensive speakers, I just want to hear the music as it was recorded. For that I need decent equipment, a good processor and thousands of hours learning to hear a difference and learning how to tune.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Lol, I love how you assume what level of equipment I have. Let me ask, when was the last time YOUR ears were tested?
> 
> Actually, I don't even need you to answer that.
> 
> Let's look at the HAT L6SE. There are a lot of people who have said over the years that the L6SE is one of the most capable midbass drivers out there, even to the point of saying that it can be played down to 50hz with authority. These are people with multiple sound quality championships, people that a huge amount of people respect for their opinions on audio.
> 
> So when I got into audio, I bought a pair of L6SE's. This was before I really understood measurements. And as such, I trusted people who used their ears to quantify thing and we're respected in this field.
> 
> But I heard something wrong with the speakers. I didn't think they sounded that good unless crossed at at least 80hz, and even better, 100hz. So whose ears were wrong?
> 
> I ended up sending my new L6SE's to he objectively tested. Turns out what I was hearing was real (and what other people weren't hearing actually existed). Turns out they are not a great midbass, but are a great midrange if crossed high enough. But by all means tell me my ears arent good enough to hear the difference.
> 
> And then there's the Kravchencko xbl tweeter. Supposed to be able to be crossed as low as 1600hz. It ships, and rave reviews start coming in from people crossing them at 1800 and 2000hz. So I try 2000hz with my pair, and cringe. I settle at 2500hz as the lowest acceptable crossover. Measurements afterwards show why. Distortion remains high until 2500hz. But my ears must suck right?


You learned that you don't know for sure who you're talking to over the internet. I was one of the naysayers on the original L6 being able to play down to 50hz, but tons of people said I was wrong and they were right. Guess I (and you) were right all along. I've heard the L6 in installs, but never owned them. I just knew that something was fishy with the claims being made. Too many people just flat don't know what to listen for. A happy speaker is one that sounds "effortless".


----------



## Elektra

sqnut said:


> Forget everything else for a minute, we only 'hear a difference', based on differences in response, timing and phase, period. So either show me that two amps measure different on the three variables, or if it is a fourth variable, then just know our ears and brain aren't geared to hear it. There are no exceptions and this is where perception bias kicks in.
> 
> In any case, I don't want to 'hear' my uber expensive sq amp, I don't even want to 'hear' my pixie dusted, magical but astronomically expensive speakers, I just want to hear the music as it was recorded. For that I need decent equipment, a good processor and thousands of hours learning to hear a difference and learning how to tune.




Let's presume for a second that I can listen critically as well as anyone else I can distinguish the whole note of a instrument where others will just enjoy the moment - I am listening to the length of time the Piano note is reverberating for - something nearly any normal person won't care to bother listening for...

Don't you think an amp that can play a signal better will be more useful than trying to tune it better? 

Surely for arguments sake we use the Brax MX amp - this amp will explore the realms of the recording better than a cheap amp would? 

Seriously have you never heard a sonic difference between amps? 

I found that mind boggling... as I can give you a full run down of what was better and worse between 2 amps pretty easily so long as the amps are not similar in construction and parts 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Elektra said:


> No - it means your ears are not agreeing with what other people are stating - perfectly normal - I listen to supposed champion cars and think WTF are they listening too?
> 
> I am dubious of other people's reviews - I prefer to try them myself. If I like them I'll use them if they don't appeal to me - I'll sell them....
> 
> Music is purely subjective and for me a personal affair - what I like and listen for is not what others my listen for ....
> 
> Buy equipment you like - I can bring you 100 reviews on the Focal Utopias being harsh and bright - but when I installed mine they were absolute butter - so I bought another 3 sets over time....
> 
> So must I believe the internet on Focal?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll agree with you on one thing. Music is a purely subjective affair.


BUT, we ate not talking about music, we are talking about the REPRODUCTION of music. 

Those are entirely different. Th REPRODUCTION of music is an entirely objective affair.

Unless or course, your not concerned with being accurate to the source.


----------



## Elektra

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'll agree with you on one thing. Music is a purely subjective affair.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BUT, we ate not talking about music, we are talking about the REPRODUCTION of music.
> 
> 
> 
> Those are entirely different. Th REPRODUCTION of music is an entirely objective affair.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless or course, your not concerned with being accurate to the source.




There isn't a more accurate true to the source amp than the Brax MX series... 

Everything about that amp is no compromise... if there ever was a product that puts its hands up for true to source ability this has to be on the top of the list surely...










I mean show me another product that has a test sheet that read like this...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

I mean look at those figures THD 0.0008% and 119db SNR - those numbers don't just magically appear they are a result of German full of **** design and pedantic component matching and measuring across the board - you may argue that you won't hear a difference over a certain number but it shows you the attention to detail and product design to achieve those numbers in the first place and the quality of parts used as well...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chefhow

Everyone hears different, its human nature.
No one is right or wrong in this unless you are a human RTA, and sadly he passed away this past year.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

That's great. But, well beyond the point of audibility. If EVERYTHING ELSE in you chain is up to that level, including the speakers and environment that they are installed in, then by all means it makes sense to use that amp. But there are NO speakers that are up to that level, or anywhere close. The advantages of that amp will be comely moot when hooked up to speakers that have hundreds of times more distortion.


----------



## Elektra

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> That's great. But, well beyond the point of audibility. If EVERYTHING ELSE in you chain is up to that level, including the speakers and environment that they are installed in, then by all means it makes sense to use that amp. But there are NO speakers that are up to that level, or anywhere close. The advantages of that amp will be comely moot when hooked up to speakers that have hundreds of times more distortion.




Well would you not want to have this amp in your boot knowing the amp is def sorted for a very long time - let's not moot the Brax service and warranty as part of the deal...

I had my X2000 serviced with original parts - that for a amp that was bought in 1996.... 

Besides as you buy more competent speakers so will they shine more because the amp is asking it to perform to its very best ability all the time and so will the next set of speakers do the same..

Basically your amp is good for a very long time... isn't that worth anything to you? Or would you prefer to keep on buying and selling amps and losing more money than what a MX amp would have costed you in the first place? 

Buy right first time? 

Ideally in a perfect world you buy your equipment once... not 100 times - can't tell you how much cash I have wasted in the last 20 years...

My wife will kill me....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I can agree with your last post. Absolutely. There is nothing wrong with buying an expensive amp. My only gripe is when people say that the amp is the weak link of the system as far as sound goes. Unless the environment is perfect, and the speakers are perfect, the amp will never be the weak link (provided it's working properly and used within its limits


----------



## Elektra

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I can agree with your last post. Absolutely. There is nothing wrong with buying an expensive amp. My only gripe is when people say that the amp is the weak link of the system as far as sound goes. Unless the environment is perfect, and the speakers are perfect, the amp will never be the weak link (provided it's working properly and used within its limits




Typically a person who buys this amp (let's face it $4500 isn't cheap) usually pairs this amp with appropriate source, DSP, speakers, cabling and followed by a professional install and tuned correctly.... 

By the numbers this amp can reproduce the amp has virtually no limits - as speakers and sources get better so will the amp sound better whereas lessor amps will hit a wall and beg to be changed 

The MX amp suffers in no regard more power you will ever need , built to perfection service ability for the next 20 years providing Brax still exists then...

The advent of hi-res music , DSD etc the resolution that can be had these days and going forward it's only going to get better - you need a amp that can do the business through these periods... 

I mean Sony's 32bit dacs and Helix DSP PRO MK2 with 32 bit dacs it's important that your equipment withstands the transition as the media gets better so will your amp sound better 

Your run of the mill $500 amp will not cope with extreme high fidelity of hi res formats as well as the Brax amp can 

They say we can't hear beyond 20khz yet Focal believes it needs to make a tweeter than can play twice the human ability to be able to play 16khz with no distortion - same can be said with the amp - the brax can play to 70khz which means it's totally in command of anything above 16khz....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

My point is that are are no perfect speakers. And even the absolute best speakers on the planet will have more distortion at normal listening levels than say, a JL XD. Enough to swamp out any distortion that the XD has.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

This thread is making me more and more glad car audio is just a casual hobby for me. And I'll stick with this little guy to run the whole system. Doesn't pull much current either. 3-way front plus sub in my Ram, and will be doing 2-way front, rearfill, and ported 10" in the Grand Cherokee.


----------



## Elektra

cmusic said:


> Back in the '90s there was a guy named Richard Clark. He's still around and owns a large CD manufacturing company in North Carolina, along with the largest collection of Buick Grand Nationals in the world. But in the late '80s and '90s he was a guru of car audio. Richard is a very technical person who relies on science, not myth, to prove his ideas. He and along with his friend, David Navone, created the company Autosound 2000 and gave many technical lectures to car audio installers and salespeople about the truths of car audio. I've got a 6 inch think notebook with all of his technical notes at home. A lot of what he was teaching seemed like snake oil to some people but was all backed by science. Subjects like as proving an installer did not need to run the ground wire from an amp all the way back to the battery and adding a large capacitor to the electrical system while using non-regulated amps helped the sound quality seemed like he was making stuff up but he was always scientifically legit.
> 
> His most famous "trick" was the $10,000 amp challenge. The hook was that you bring him two amps of your choosing and he would conduct a double blind listening test and if you could pick out which amp was playing ten times in a row, he would give you $10,000. Hundreds and hundreds of people were said to have taken the challenge and lost. However if you read the rules closely and had a scientific background, anyone could see that this was a simple scientific test where every difference was eliminated down to where only one thing was being tested. All amps were gain matched to the same levels, crossovers bypassed, and even external equalizers installed in order to get the_ exact_ same frequency response out of each amp. What the listeners did not realize was the amps were not the item being tested, _it was the listener's hearing that was the remaining un-neutralized factor that was being tested._ I know of at least one person that passed the test and there has been several more people that have reportedly passed it too. The one guy I know said after the test Clark rechecked the amp's outputs and found that one amp's gain was about 1/4 dB louder than the other, and therefore Clark would not pay out the $10,000.
> 
> My conclusions are after being in the car audio hobby for about 28 years and having owned, installed, and listened to hundreds of amps, _there are "real world" sonic differences in amps_. However when when subjected to scientific testing where amps are adjusted to have identical outputs, the differences can't be heard. And as we know, scientific testing does not happen every day and every moment in the real world.




I made a statement once on our local forum that you could hear a difference between 2 amps as I have heard it dozens on times whenever I got a new amp I always went to a friends place who happened to live 5mins from to listen...

He had a amazing pair of ears he could tell you what frequency is wrong - impressive

Anyrate some of the trouble makers on the forum decided a blind test was in order - which I stupidly agreed to. One member was a HIFI reviewer and worked at a studio.. 

So we used his studio... my EOS Verdi Tube amp vs a PG Xenon 200.4 - EOS Verdi is identical to the GZ2T amp for reference.

Now we used a $10k Dynaudio home speaker which was being reviewed at the time as the speakers and a Preamp - can't remember what it was...

So this was the test...


Connect left channel of the EOS to the left output of the Preamp and right speaker terminal to the PG amp - so basically played each speaker in mono but the speakers were placed center of the room side by side - so the idea was he would play with the balance to switch amps

What he failed to mention that it was a AB and X test... I mention this as we as humans don't always think out the box - AB test means yes or no.... exclude the X part and your brain isn't listening correctly as when you honestly can't hear a difference your brain is saying there must be as it's a AB test - right? So in my view it was flawed

So 14 people attended the test - all walks of life attended including a double hearing aid person... yeah to a listening test! 

I was asked not to partake which I didn't... the test was 3 sections out of 10 so 10 tracks at low volume 10 at medium and 10 at high volume

So score was out of 30... 

Some of these clowns did so badly that they only achieved an average of 12/30 with a couple who had less than 10/30

The guy I do my listening tests got 29/30 - he said the one he got wrong was too soft for him to hear properly 

So why did he get 29/30 and others 12/30? 

It's because he knows how to listen - his own words...

Shows you that out of 100 people only 5% of those people actually know how to listen which makes these tests a little flawed in my opinion 

Also I question the validity of doing a listening test in mono and not setting out the rules before the test... and bringing a double hearing aid person to a listening test 

Guess what I don't volunteer doing those tests again... unless you want to look like an idiot


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Guess another way to put it, is make sure your ducks are in a row before upgrading other things.

I judged CA finals this year. 20+ cars, many with 10-20k+ in equipment.

IIRC, I docked every car but 2 for some sort of resonance. That's a big deal to me. Every single can but 2 had some sort of resonance/ rattle/vibration. Cars with mega $ amplifiers and Sony Hi-Res source units. There is nothing an amplifier or source unit or even speakers could do to improve that aspect. And yet people will spend money on those things without fixing the rattles.

Granted, I will admit some cars are almost impossible to completely rid of rattles. But some of these cars had seriously obvious rattles.


----------



## Elektra

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Guess another way to put it, is make sure your ducks are in a row before upgrading other things.
> 
> I judged CA finals this year. 20+ cars, many with 10-20k+ in equipment.
> 
> IIRC, I docked every car but 2 for some sort of resonance. That's a big deal to me. Every single can but 2 had some sort of resonance/ rattle/vibration. Cars with mega $ amplifiers and Sony Hi-Res source units. There is nothing an amplifier or source unit or even speakers could do to improve that aspect. And yet people will spend money on those things without fixing the rattles.
> 
> Granted, I will admit some cars are almost impossible to completely rid of rattles. But some of these cars had seriously obvious rattles.




Dude I banned my wife from bringing handbags with decorative metallic attachments to the car as the handbag makes more noise that anything else - drove me insane 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Elektra said:


> Dude I banned my wife from bringing handbags with decorative metallic attachments to the car as the handbag makes more noise that anything else - drove me insane
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You take this **** WAY too seriously. It's just car audio man! A car is about as bad of a listening room as it gets. You can only do so much to make it acceptable. If someone WITHOUT YOU KNOWING were to swap your high dollar amps out with a known good value amp of good design and build I doubt you would be able to tell the difference right off the bat as long as everything was level matched.


----------



## Elektra

Hillbilly SQ said:


> You take this **** WAY too seriously. It's just car audio man! A car is about as bad of a listening room as it gets. You can only do so much to make it acceptable. If someone WITHOUT YOU KNOWING were to swap your high dollar amps out with a known good value amp of good design and build I doubt you would be able to tell the difference right off the bat as long as everything was level matched.




Firstly if someone took out my amps without me knowing it - I'd kill them!

Secondly you haven't heard my wife's handbag... lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

On to the "room" being terrible, what you hear is a high amount of reflections whether you want to admit it or not. Doesn't matter how you build your pillars/kicks/whatever. Car audio is all about tuning for the room. Good gear helps if you pick the right gear, but beyond that the tune is far more important than splitting hairs over amps. Look at all that glass! I bet your car isn't any better in that respect. This is my own personal vehicle btw.


----------



## Elektra

Hillbilly SQ said:


> On to the "room" being terrible, what you hear is a high amount of reflections whether you want to admit it or not. Doesn't matter how you build your pillars/kicks/whatever. Car audio is all about tuning for the room. Good gear helps if you pick the right gear, but beyond that the tune is far more important than splitting hairs over amps. Look at all that glass! I bet your car isn't any better in that respect. This is my own personal vehicle btw.




Look everyone makes a good point - I just don't think you should sell yourself short because of a few room limitations 

It's like saying what's the point of a V8 when the speed limit is 60? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Elektra said:


> Look everyone makes a good point - I just don't think you should sell yourself short because of a few room limitations
> 
> It's like saying what's the point of a V8 when the speed limit is 60?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's all about priorities. Most people can't tell a difference between amps as long as the amps used are of at least decent quality. My hearing has been compromised as well as most other people who have lived life. In marching band while playing in the stands I had 5 marching snares behind me. Sophomore year they hurt my ears. Junior year they were still bothersome but not as bad. Senior year they were a fart in the wind. The level they were being played didn't change much if any. Top that off with loud motors and other things...and most people don't wear hearing protection like they should. I sure don't. And that Jeep is the first vehicle I've owned since 02 that hasn't had a v8 in it. The v6 Pentastar will flat out get with the program with the 8 speed transmission behind it. Pulls the 2000lb boat in the background like it's not even back there. Don't miss my 395hp HEMI one bit. Sure don't miss buying gas for that big *****! 14mpg average vs 22mpg average!


----------



## Elektra

Hillbilly SQ said:


> It's all about priorities. Most people can't tell a difference between amps as long as the amps used are of at least decent quality. My hearing has been compromised as well as most other people who have lived life. In marching band while playing in the stands I had 5 marching snares behind me. Sophomore year they hurt my ears. Junior year they were still bothersome but not as bad. Senior year they were a fart in the wind. The level they were being played didn't change much if any. Top that off with loud motors and other things...and most people don't wear hearing protection like they should. I sure don't. And that Jeep is the first vehicle I've owned since 02 that hasn't had a v8 in it. The v6 Pentastar will flat out get with the program with the 8 speed transmission behind it. Pulls the 2000lb boat in the background like it's not even back there. Don't miss my 395hp HEMI one bit. Sure don't miss buying gas for that big *****! 14mpg average vs 22mpg average!




I hear you...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## brumledb

Elektra said:


> Dude I banned my wife from bringing handbags with decorative metallic attachments to the car as the handbag makes more noise that anything else - drove me insane
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Plastic shopping bags drive me bananas. 

I have seen you mention the EOS amps before and they look interesting to me. Are they any sites you could recommend if I wanted to purchase one?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

I will admit, I've been known to pull over and tear a truck apart to find a noise while going down the road. I finally learned it was usually the seatbelt buckle hanging wrong on the passenger side in my Ram trucks. I do carry a lot of stuff with me normally to stay prepared. This is why I refuse to compromise access to the spare tire. I do miss not having the spare underneath the vehicle. I'm strong as an ox so will just make sure I can muscle the enclosure up and pull the spare out that's mounted on an 18" rim. As for stuff that jingles or plastic bags, I'll just throw a coat or blanket or something over the offending piece to silence it. Got my big coat over some Walmart bags right now...mainly to hide them from view. It's the coat I wear while running down the lake on really cold days.


----------



## Elektra

brumledb said:


> Plastic shopping bags drive me bananas.
> 
> I have seen you mention the EOS amps before and they look interesting to me. Are they any sites you could recommend if I wanted to purchase one?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




See pic attached - I find skype works best...

Pavel is very helpful....

You can go to www.pit.ru use google translate to English - look under premium and elite products the EOS brand is that group... 

Warning there stocks are limited so they don't always have what is shown on the website...










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I will admit, I've been known to pull over and tear a truck apart to find a noise while going down the road. I finally learned it was usually the seatbelt buckle hanging wrong on the passenger side in my Ram trucks. I do carry a lot of stuff with me normally to stay prepared. This is why I refuse to compromise access to the spare tire. I do miss not having the spare underneath the vehicle. I'm strong as an ox so will just make sure I can muscle the enclosure up and pull the spare out that's mounted on an 18" rim. As for stuff that jingles or plastic bags, I'll just throw a coat or blanket or something over the offending piece to silence it. Got my big coat over some Walmart bags right now...mainly to hide them from view. It's the coat I wear while running down the lake on really cold days.




I usually try to tune out the resonance like change slope on midbass or raise the frequency - generally I don't have too much of a problem - but I am a James Horner and Hans Zimmer fans so Pirates Of The Caribbeans with that home cinema bass is sometimes too much for my panels.... or the Braveheart OST with that drum bass sections really impressive - must say my Utopias handle the 63hz fairly well - but I don't lean too much on the volume as I am not wanting to replace Utopia drivers - but to there credit they have never bottomed out actually very competent drivers 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

Here's my long but pretty simple input:
If you have the money to spend and buying the amp makes you feel better about the system then there's nothing wrong with it.

If you're under the assumption that cost is directly proportional to quality then you're mistaken. Therefore, if you are working with a small budget don't be convinced that your 'budget' amps are somehow inferior to those which cost multiples of your budget. Odds are, you'd not be the wiser when all is said and done. 

There are absolutely specs that matter but modern-day amps from most of the reputable manufacturers are all on an even keel. Obviously comparing 25w output to 200w output isn't logical but if the specs are in the same ballpark then you'll be fine getting the one that tickles your fancy instead of worrying about uber-SQ quality. 

For example, I was running the JL XD amps earlier this year. Car sounded great. Best it'd ever sounded. But it wasn't just because of the amps... I had a new install and a good tune on it. This summer I found a good price on a Mcintosh MC4000M that I've been wanting for nearly a decade so I pulled the trigger. Do I think the system sounds better with the Mcintosh? Yes. Do I think the system sounds better _because_ of the Mcintosh? No. Do I think the system sounds better?... sure... but a lot of other things changed, too. Even the install. However, I have the "pride of ownership" aspect going for me which makes me tickled pink and *absolutely* plays in to the psychoacoustic effect. Others could care less. But those others aren't driving my car. I am. 

I've heard over 100 different vehicles over the years with all sorts of varying installs and budgets and the large majority of them sounded just fine. The ones that were at the cream of the crop were from people who know their install, how to tune and what to listen for... some of those were 2-way systems with modest gear. The ones that were not 'great' simply had owners who didn't quite have a handle on how to setup up their system properly. There's a common theme here. 

So to recap: If you have the funds and want to buy something then go for it. Just understand if you can't do a legitimate double-blind test then there's no real sense in trying to convince others of what you heard ... and that's fine. You heard what you heard. You likely will hear a difference and it's likely the difference has more to do with the psychoacoustic aspect... but it is what it is. If you are limited in budget then take comfort in knowing that amps from most any non-flea-market company are going to be quite good. Buy the power/footprint/etc you need and rock it. Don't worry about keeping up with the Jones'.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Thanks Erin for telling how the cow ate the cabbage. My thoughts exactly. To be honest, I find it beneficial to get into a car without having a clue what all is involved in the gear. Yeah most you'll know going in exactly what's contributing to the finished product, but it's just plain fun going in not knowing anything about the car you're listening to until after you hear it. I used to be dead against class d amps. My mind has been changed and I've seen the light!


----------



## Elektra

ErinH said:


> Here's my long but pretty simple input:
> If you have the money to spend and buying the amp makes you feel better about the system then there's nothing wrong with it.
> 
> If you're under the assumption that cost is directly proportional to quality then you're mistaken. Therefore, if you are working with a small budget don't be convinced that your 'budget' amps are somehow inferior to those which cost multiples of your budget. Odds are, you'd not be the wiser when all is said and done.
> 
> There are absolutely specs that matter but modern-day amps from most of the reputable manufacturers are all on an even keel. Obviously comparing 25w output to 200w output isn't logical but if the specs are in the same ballpark then you'll be fine getting the one that tickles your fancy instead of worrying about uber-SQ quality.
> 
> For example, I was running the JL XD amps earlier this year. Car sounded great. Best it'd ever sounded. But it wasn't just because of the amps... I had a new install and a good tune on it. This summer I found a good price on a Mcintosh MC4000M that I've been wanting for nearly a decade so I pulled the trigger. Do I think the system sounds better with the Mcintosh? Yes. Do I think the system sounds better _because_ of the Mcintosh? No. Do I think the system sounds better?... sure... but a lot of other things changed, too. Even the install. However, I have the "pride of ownership" aspect going for me which makes me tickled pink and *absolutely* plays in to the psychoacoustic effect. Others could care less. But those others aren't driving my car. I am.
> 
> I've heard over 100 different vehicles over the years with all sorts of varying installs and budgets and the large majority of them sounded just fine. The ones that were at the cream of the crop were from people who know their install, how to tune and what to listen for... some of those were 2-way systems with modest gear. The ones that were not 'great' simply had owners who didn't quite have a handle on how to setup up their system properly. There's a common theme here.
> 
> So to recap: If you have the funds and want to buy something then go for it. Just understand if you can't do a legitimate double-blind test then there's no real sense in trying to convince others of what you heard ... and that's fine. You heard what you heard. You likely will hear a difference and it's likely the difference has more to do with the psychoacoustic aspect... but it is what it is. If you are limited in budget then take comfort in knowing that amps from most any non-flea-market company are going to be quite good. Buy the power/footprint/etc you need and rock it. Don't worry about keeping up with the Jones'.




I don't think the jones' factored in my decision to try the Brax amps - power wise 4x280 MX4 2x500 MX2 check...
Size 330x330 small enough to mount in most places... check
Warranty you can call upon 10 years down the road - check
Built with high level components - check
Regarded by many as the best in the business assures some level of expectation to sound good - check
Expensive - only negative besides getting as hot as a iron... 

After listening to it for a few hours - brings a smile to my face - big check

Does this amp meet my every expectation so far - check

So why not have it... ?

I have at least 15 hours of listening time on the amp and I have come to conclusion it is the best I have heard - considering I was willing to sell them shows that I am not a fanboy or blind loyalist either - if it's not meeting my expectations it's gone doesn't matter what make or model it is - if I feel a cheaper product does it more for me then that's the product I'll support... 

The quest for perfection has no place for a name and reputation it's all about the end result according to me...

I'll drop the MX amps for a $10 flea market amp if I felt it did a better job to my ears...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Thanks Erin for telling how the cow ate the cabbage. My thoughts exactly. To be honest, I find it beneficial to get into a car without having a clue what all is involved in the gear. Yeah most you'll know going in exactly what's contributing to the finished product, but it's just plain fun going in not knowing anything about the car you're listening to until after you hear it. I used to be dead against class d amps. My mind has been changed and I've seen the light!




That's so true... if you know the car has $100k inside it your already skeptical and unimpressed - your brain is saying it sucks before you even listen to it... better to show and tell after a proper listening session


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Elektra said:


> I usually try to tune out the resonance like change slope on midbass or raise the frequency - generally I don't have too much of a problem - but I am a James Horner and Hans Zimmer fans so Pirates Of The Caribbeans with that home cinema bass is sometimes too much for my panels.... or the Braveheart OST with that drum bass sections really impressive - must say my Utopias handle the 63hz fairly well - but I don't lean too much on the volume as I am not wanting to replace Utopia drivers - but to there credit they have never bottomed out actually very competent drivers
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You mean the first minute of track 8 on the Braveheart ost? Wish I could use that when judging to test for resonance.


----------



## Elektra

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> You mean the first minute of track 8 on the Braveheart ost? Wish I could use that when judging to test for resonance.




6, 8,9 and 10... on track 6 about 3mins into track when the drums just land... some of those tracks you can't have no resonance as I reckon the bass goes to 10hz track 8 is bonkers - I doubt anyone who values there subs and midbass drivers will lean too much on the volume.... 

Truly amazing drums you can hear the skin on the drum - you can imagine a 32" drum with a guy with a big stick beating on it... 

Another good Horner OST is Titanic - but there so many Legends Of The Falls also amazing 

This is when you can appreciate this type of music - honestly changed the way we watch Cinema... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Lol, I love how you assume what level of equipment I have. Let me ask, when was the last time YOUR ears were tested?
> 
> Actually, I don't even need you to answer that.
> 
> Let's look at the HAT L6SE. There are a lot of people who have said over the years that the L6SE is one of the most capable midbass drivers out there, even to the point of saying that it can be played down to 50hz with authority. These are people with multiple sound quality championships, people that a huge amount of people respect for their opinions on audio.
> 
> So when I got into audio, I bought a pair of L6SE's. This was before I really understood measurements. And as such, I trusted people who used their ears to quantify thing and we're respected in this field.
> 
> But I heard something wrong with the speakers. I didn't think they sounded that good unless crossed at at least 80hz, and even better, 100hz. So whose ears were wrong?
> 
> I ended up sending my new L6SE's to he objectively tested. Turns out what I was hearing was real (and what other people weren't hearing actually existed). Turns out they are not a great midbass, but are a great midrange if crossed high enough. But by all means tell me my ears arent good enough to hear the difference.
> 
> And then there's the Kravchencko xbl tweeter. Supposed to be able to be crossed as low as 1600hz. It ships, and rave reviews start coming in from people crossing them at 1800 and 2000hz. So I try 2000hz with my pair, and cringe. I settle at 2500hz as the lowest acceptable crossover. Measurements afterwards show why. Distortion remains high until 2500hz. But my ears must suck right?


You keep mentioning having your hearing checked. 

1. A hearing test just tests how well a person can hear different frequencies. 

2. You mention that your ears can easily pick up distortion.

3. No one is doubting weather or not your hearing works good.

What Electra and I are referring to is if you can actually listen. 

I mentioned attack and sustain. 

Electra mentioned listening for how long a piano note plays.

What we are talking about is listening skills, not one's ability to hear. 

There is a big difference here. 

Why is it that you have not commented on duration of notes? I believe, that you have not yet been trained to listen. 

What would help you immensely is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj6VX_-724A

My advice is to listen to this disc on as many different systems as you can. Maybe then you will be able to listen properly.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

What's wrong with just enjoying the music? You use the system to listen to the music, not the other way around. "Listening properly" has nothing to do with one's ability to enjoy the music on a quality system.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

And as such, I mentioned how I used to pick up songs and figure them out from as little as one listen. You can't do that if you don't know how to listen.

So let's talk about sustain and piano notes. A piano note should only last as long as it is recorded to. If an amp can't get this right, it's broken. Period. 

Again, the attack and decay is never a weak point for any decent, properly functioning amp, ESPECIALLY in comparison to ANY speaker and the room itself (that applies to decay). Let's be honest here, in most vehicles decay of midbass and bass frequencies is in the order of half a second or so. 

So, what your saying, is that a lot of amps are broken?


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Something else that could be a factor is when swapping amps you also freshen up connections even if you don't intend to. Usually before a car audio g2g I'll twist all the rca connections I can reach and maybe strip fresh copper for the speaker wire if time allows.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

sqnut said:


> Forget everything else for a minute, we only 'hear a difference', based on differences in response, timing and phase, period. So either show me that two amps measure different on the three variables, or if it is a fourth variable, then just know our ears and brain aren't geared to hear it. There are no exceptions and this is where perception bias kicks in.
> 
> In any case, I don't want to 'hear' my uber expensive sq amp, I don't even want to 'hear' my pixie dusted, magical but astronomically expensive speakers, I just want to hear the music as it was recorded. For that I need decent equipment, a good processor and thousands of hours learning to hear a difference and learning how to tune.


I respectfully disagree with what you are claiming when it comes to having only three factors that determine SQ

1. Response
2. Timing 
3. Phasing

You forgot to mention the most important factor when it comes to sound reproduction. 

1. The amplifiers ability to have control of the driver. and 
2. The Total Harmonic Distortion of the amplifier. 

A better amplifier will control the driver better and therefore reproduce more accurately all the sound which is in the recording. 

Most of the time, the find detail of a recording is lost due to the resolution quality of the system in total, which of course is the sum of its parts. 

Everything matters when it comes to revealing all of the fine details of a recording. Even down to cables.


----------



## Elektra

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> And as such, I mentioned how I used to pick up songs and figure them out from as little as one listen. You can't do that if you don't know how to listen.
> 
> So let's talk about sustain and piano notes. A piano note should only last as long as it is recorded to. If an amp can't get this right, it's broken. Period.
> 
> Again, the attack and decay is never a weak point for any decent, properly functioning amp, ESPECIALLY in comparison to ANY speaker and the room itself (that applies to decay). Let's be honest here, in most vehicles decay of midbass and bass frequencies is in the order of half a second or so.
> 
> So, what your saying, is that a lot of amps are broken?




It's not broken - it doesn't have the ability to portray the same finite resolution as a more accomplished amplifier - music is there but not so easily heard - a lot to do with the separation and THD - I found with the MX amps I was able to to listen further into the recording than with my Thesis - this may not make much sense to you but it's what I felt... 

With the much lower THD there was less noise or confusion in the music seems like a little veil lifted with the more accurate sounding amp - also I found the bass on the Thesis was exaggerated slightly and over pronounced which muddied up the midrange slightly 

Like on Damien Rice's 9 crimes the movement of the chair was much easier to hear on the MX amp compared to the Thesis....




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

High Resolution Audio said:


> I respectfully disagree with what you are claiming when it comes to having only three factors that determine SQ
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Response
> 
> 2. Timing
> 
> 3. Phasing
> 
> 
> 
> You forgot to mention the most important factor when it comes to sound reproduction.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The amplifiers ability to have control of the driver. and
> 
> 2. The Total Harmonic Distortion of the amplifier.
> 
> 
> 
> A better amplifier will control the driver better and therefore reproduce more accurately all the sound which is in the recording.
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the time, the find detail of a recording is lost due to the resolution quality of the system in total, which of course is the sum of its parts.
> 
> 
> 
> Everything matters when it comes to revealing all of the fine details of a recording. Even down to cables.




I think we are on the same page... lol

The MX THD is significant as it becalms the music to make it less confusing therefore you hear more detail - the SNR as high as 119db is also significant in the quietness in between dark passages and soft passages 

You can't build an amp that has this ability with cheap parts from RadioShack every part is tested and matched it takes longer to make this kind of amp by hand than to mass produce 1000 amps in a day 

You pay for what you get... I would hazard a wager this amp will sing nicely against uber expensive home gear... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Elektra said:


> It's not broken - it doesn't have the ability to portray the same finite resolution as a more accomplished amplifier - music is there but not so easily heard - a lot to do with the separation and THD - I found with the MX amps I was able to to listen further into the recording than with my Thesis - this may not make much sense to you but it's what I felt...
> 
> With the much lower THD there was less noise or confusion in the music seems like a little veil lifted with the more accurate sounding amp - also I found the bass on the Thesis was exaggerated slightly and over pronounced which muddied up the midrange slightly
> 
> Like on Damien Rice's 9 crimes the movement of the chair was much easier to hear on the MX amp compared to the Thesis....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It seems as If you and I understand the same thing as we basically painted the same picture simultaneously using different articulation.


----------



## Elektra

High Resolution Audio said:


> It seems as If you and I understand the same thing as we basically painted the same picture simultaneously using different articulation.




100%...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## grinkeeper

I think a few people have touched on source material. If the content material your listening to isn’t the absolutely top notch then the rest of the chain behind it really falls apart. So every part counts even the music. So with the majority of people using sub par source material with MP3 being so convenient I can’t really figure out why people are spending good money on amps over say $1000. 

But then again this comes from someone thats always wanting better and better. I don’t think I would have ended up with Focal Utopias if I also didn’t have this mental illness called "car audio”. 

I used to have the home audiophile bug but I was cured after leaving my 2 ch audiophile system so neglected after setting up a Home Theater set up. Sad really but hey its Movies right so it seems a better use of entertainment time.

Ground Zero, Brax , Helix, Tru etc... stuff looks amazing. I guess Im just not at that level of audio illness yet.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Which is why I have one amplifier for every driver in my system. Almost. 8 drivers and 7 amplifiers.


----------



## Elektra

grinkeeper said:


> I think a few people have touched on source material. If the content material your listening to isn’t the absolutely top notch then the rest of the chain behind it really falls apart. So every part counts even the music. So with the majority of people using sub par source material with MP3 being so convenient I can’t really figure out why people are spending good money on amps over say $1000.
> 
> 
> 
> But then again this comes from someone thats always wanting better and better. I don’t think I would have ended up with Focal Utopias if I also didn’t have this mental illness called "car audio”.
> 
> 
> 
> I used to have the home audiophile bug but I was cured after leaving my 2 ch audiophile system so neglected after setting up a Home Theater set up. Sad really but hey its Movies right so it seems a better use of entertainment time.
> 
> 
> 
> Ground Zero, Brax , Helix, Tru etc... stuff looks amazing. I guess Im just not at that level of audio illness yet.




The only cure is money pills unfortunately they expensive and health insurance doesn't cover them.... lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

grinkeeper said:


> I think a few people have touched on source material. If the content material your listening to isn’t the absolutely top notch then the rest of the chain behind it really falls apart. So every part counts even the music. So with the majority of people using sub par source material with MP3 being so convenient I can’t really figure out why people are spending good money on amps over say $1000.
> 
> But then again this comes from someone thats always wanting better and better. I don’t think I would have ended up with Focal Utopias if I also didn’t have this mental illness called "car audio”.
> 
> I used to have the home audiophile bug but I was cured after leaving my 2 ch audiophile system so neglected after setting up a Home Theater set up. Sad really but hey its Movies right so it seems a better use of entertainment time.
> 
> Ground Zero, Brax , Helix, Tru etc... stuff looks amazing. I guess Im just not at that level of audio illness yet.


Which is why I'm one of the few that listen to music only with CDs. 

But Compact Disks do not have the fine resolution the DVDs have.

And DVDs do not have the fine resolution that Blu Rays have.

Which is why I have 150 plus concerts on blu-ray and an Oppp Blu Ray player in my rig.

If they came out with something better, I would have that.


----------



## Elektra

High Resolution Audio said:


> Which is why I'm one of the few that listen to music only with CDs.
> 
> 
> 
> But Compact Disks do not have the fine resolution the DVDs have.
> 
> 
> 
> And DVDs do not have the fine resolution that Blu Rays have.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why I have 150 plus concerts on blu-ray and an Oppp Blu Ray player in my rig.
> 
> 
> 
> If they came out with something better, I would have that.




I have become partial to the Sony.... better than all my previous HUs that HU is amazing.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

I do agree that not all amps are created equal when it comes to control of the speaker. I experienced the same difference between the Mosconi One series vs JL XD that Elektra did between the Thesis and MX amp. To me, the Mosconi wasn't as true to the source as the JL. Before I get hate mail from bashing Mosconi, keep in mind the One series is at or near the bottom of their product lineup. And with Orca you pay way more than you should in my opinion here in the states.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

You guys are really losing it when you start to bring up THD. For instance, a JL HD makes rated power at 0.03% THD. That is inaudible. Yeah, the Brax is better but what does it really matter when the distortion from the JL is also inaudible?

Your speakers on the other hand are likely hovering around 0.5-1.0% MINIMUM.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Elektra said:


> I have become partial to the Sony.... better than all my previous HUs that HU is amazing....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I listened to the Sony in Mike Young's Beetle. His system had the cleanest bass I have heard yet to date. Brax drivers, and Mosconi Amps.


----------



## Elektra

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I do agree that not all amps are created equal when it comes to control of the speaker. I experienced the same difference between the Mosconi One series vs JL XD that Elektra did between the Thesis and MX amp. To me, the Mosconi wasn't as true to the source as the JL. Before I get hate mail from bashing Mosconi, keep in mind the One series is at or near the bottom of their product lineup. And with Orca you pay way more than you should in my opinion here in the states.




Italian amps are more musical... I heard somewhere that they build in a slight hump in the frequency response to make it sound more entertaining... i think Zapco did the same to make there amps sound more powerful off the bat...

It's speculation of course I haven't verified this personally


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

High Resolution Audio said:


> Which is why I'm one of the few that listen to music only with CDs.
> 
> But Compact Disks do not have the fine resolution the DVDs have.
> 
> And DVDs do not have the fine resolution that Blu Rays have.
> 
> Which is why I have 150 plus concerts on blu-ray and an Oppp Blu Ray player in my rig.
> 
> If they came out with something better, I would have that.


Lossless on flash drives here. With it being harder and harder to replace factory headunits these days splitting hairs on which amps "sounds" best becomes less important. Crap in crap out and I'm not replacing the u-connect 8.4 headunit. Too much is tied into it and don't want the hassle of an external source unit mounted somewhere. Good thing I'm not as serious about car audio as I used to be.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> You guys are really losing it when you start to bring up THD. For instance, a JL HD makes rated power at 0.03% THD. That is inaudible. Yeah, the Brax is better but what does it really matter when the distortion from the JL is also inaudible?
> 
> Your speakers on the other hand are likely hovering around 0.5-1.0% MINIMUM.


Look at it this way.

Lets use a car analogy.

Power in wattage = horsepower. 

An American muscle car in the 1970's ( GTO )had relatively high horsepower and could accelerate in a straight line quickly but could handle for ****. 

Kind of like a powerful Class D amplifier. Can move a big sub-woofer effortlessly, without breaking a sweat. This could pressurize a vehicle's interior relatively easily, which is why they are used in SPL competitions.

Take that muscle car and put it on a curvy race track. What good is all that horsepower if you do not have any control over it. The tires will squeal and it would be on the edge of loosing control trying to go around the curves. And it wouldn't be able to slow down or stop for ****. This would be the amp with high distortion level.

A class A amplifier would be equivalent to a finely tuned sports car like a Porsche. It may not have the raw horsepower, but it can race around the track and handle all of the curves effortlessly. 
This would be the equivalent of a low distortion amp.

Usually, 50% of the amplifiers maximum power is clean. After that distortion comes heavily into play.

If the race were all curves the Porsche would win.
If the race were a drag strip the GTO would win.

Music is the equivalent of both. The low frequencies need big power, while the high frequencies need the finesse.

High frequencies are easier to locate and lows are not. As we get higher and higher up in frequencies, we need more and more control as a little distortion becomes very apparent. 

In order to get the finest resolution from a system, one must have a boatload of power that can be controlled. Like an Enzo Ferrari.

Your source material will be the fuel.

Sure all of the vehicles will run on 87 Octane and get you down the street.
Move upward to 103 Octane Racing Fuel, and the improvements will be not as apparent in the Muscle Car ( low resolution system ) and significant in the porsche ( medium resolution ) but dramatic in the Ferrari ( high resolution )

To say that one can put upgraded parts on the GTO and get it to handle like the Ferrari is just plain ludicrous. 

That would be the equivalent of saying with enough tuning I can get a GTO to drive like a Ferrari. It just ain't gonna happen.

A great amplifier is going to be able to control that speaker more accurately.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Lets use another car analogy.

Two vehicles could have engines that make the same horsepower. One is a three cylinder in line with big bore pistons and long stroke. 

The other is a V-12 cylinder with smaller pistons that fire many more times per duration of time. 

Both of the engines develop the same horsepower, but do it differently. Are they going to run the same? No. One will be smoother and one will be rougher. The same with amplifiers. The 12 cylinder will have more finesse. Same with a better designed amp.


----------



## Elektra

High Resolution Audio said:


> Look at it this way.
> 
> 
> 
> Lets use a car analogy.
> 
> 
> 
> Power in wattage = horsepower.
> 
> 
> 
> An American muscle car in the 1970's ( GTO )had relatively high horsepower and could accelerate in a straight line quickly but could handle for ****.
> 
> 
> 
> Kind of like a powerful Class D amplifier. Can move a big sub-woofer effortlessly, without breaking a sweat. This could pressurize a vehicle's interior relatively easily, which is why they are used in SPL competitions.
> 
> 
> 
> Take that muscle car and put it on a curvy race track. What good is all that horsepower if you do not have any control over it. The tires will squeal and it would be on the edge of loosing control trying to go around the curves. And it wouldn't be able to slow down or stop for ****. This would be the amp with high distortion level.
> 
> 
> 
> A class A amplifier would be equivalent to a finely tuned sports car like a Porsche. It may not have the raw horsepower, but it can race around the track and handle all of the curves effortlessly.
> 
> This would be the equivalent of a low distortion amp.
> 
> 
> 
> Usually, 50% of the amplifiers maximum power is clean. After that distortion comes heavily into play.
> 
> 
> 
> If the race were all curves the Porsche would win.
> 
> If the race were a drag strip the GTO would win.
> 
> 
> 
> Music is the equivalent of both. The low frequencies need big power, while the high frequencies need the finesse.
> 
> 
> 
> High frequencies are easier to locate and lows are not. As we get higher and higher up in frequencies, we need more and more control as a little distortion becomes very apparent.
> 
> 
> 
> In order to get the finest resolution from a system, one must have a boatload of power that can be controlled. Like an Enzo Ferrari.
> 
> 
> 
> Your source material will be the fuel.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure all of the vehicles will run on 87 Octane and get you down the street.
> 
> Move upward to 103 Octane Racing Fuel, and the improvements will be not as apparent in the Muscle Car ( low resolution system ) and significant in the porsche ( medium resolution ) but dramatic in the Ferrari ( high resolution )
> 
> 
> 
> To say that one can put upgraded parts on the GTO and get it to handle like the Ferrari is just plain ludicrous.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be the equivalent of saying with enough tuning I can get a GTO to drive like a Ferrari. It just ain't gonna happen.
> 
> 
> 
> A great amplifier is going to be able to control that speaker more accurately.




As the power is turned up so does your THD goes worse - that's why some amps sound better with the gains almost flat... with the THD of the Brax being let's see if I can get this right - most amps are 0.4% THD the MX amps have 0.0008% THD that's 1000 times better? If my maths is correct

That means at almost full power the MX amps have still less THD than a half decent amp at virtually flat gains

This is why this amp is so good... this is why this amp can sound so natural at high power....



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## knever3

I knew this would happen, thread fail again. A subjective contest like all the rest. OP I hope you have your answer.


----------



## 1fishman

High Resolution Audio said:


> Also did SINGLE BLIND testing at home with Boston Acoustics Voyager Pro speakers, with Marantz SR880 Receiver that has pre-amp outputs as well as a built in amp.. Took the same signal from an Oppo BDP95 and sent the signal to a Haffler DH500 amp and to the marantz amp. MY HELPER switched speaker leads back and forth which took all of 5 seconds, (not instantaneous as you claim needs be done)
> *
> The sound-stage was different between amps. Haffler AMP was more two dimensional. Marantz amp more three dimensional. There was more space around each instrument. More Focus and dimension*.
> 
> There is more to sound than just frequency response. You, either have equipment that is low resolution and incapable of revealing differences, or your hearing is unable to pick up subtle differences. One or the other.
> 
> And your mindset will never allow you to hear actual differences, even if others could in the same room under the same conditions, because your mind is made up..........also the placebo effect.


 

We all know amps can sound different, but couldn't the same results you got above, be had from different tunes on a DSP? in other words, one tune being more three dimensional ... than the other tune)

IF so, couldn't we assume that the different sound signature's that most amplifiers have, could be "equalized" by tuning with a DSP to sound "the same? Noise & distortion aside.

Personally I don't know the answer . To me it just seems too hard to fairly compare amplifiers when the difference can be so subtle and my hearing can be so subjective.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

1fishman said:


> We all know amps can sound different, but couldn't the same results you got above, be had from different tunes on a DSP? in other words, one tune being more three dimensional ... than the other tune)
> 
> IF so, couldn't we assume that the different sound signature's that most amplifiers have, could be "equalized" by tuning with a DSP to sound "the same? Noise & distortion aside.
> 
> Personally I don't know the answer . To me it just seems too hard to fairly compare amplifiers when the difference can be so subtle.


That is a valid point. Personally, I do not know the answer either. 

But if I were to guess, I would say no, because I think that creating those subtle differences is all dependent upon how well the amplifier controls the driver. 

In my opinion, in order to create those subtle nuances, the drivers have to start and stop with such micro precision.

I do not believe that any amount of tuning would possibly affect that. But that is just my opinion.


----------



## MrGreen83

Lord I knew this thread was gonna go wild lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

MrGreen83 said:


> Lord I knew this thread was gonna go wild lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good, at least we are talking about something interesting. Is it just me or has DIYMA been getting boring the last few months?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Elektra said:


> As the power is turned up so does your THD goes worse - that's why some amps sound better with the gains almost flat... with the THD of the Brax being let's see if I can get this right - most amps are 0.4% THD the MX amps have 0.0008% THD that's 1000 times better? If my maths is correct
> 
> That means at almost full power the MX amps have still less THD than a half decent amp at virtually flat gains
> 
> This is why this amp is so good... this is why this amp can sound so natural at high power....
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Like I said earlier, the JL HD has a THD of 0.03% at rated power. Completely inaudible. It wont get any more inaudible going to 0.0008% because you can't hear 0.03% anyways. 

And those miniscule numbers are moot, because the best speakers in the world are still somewhere around 0.5-1% distortion at normal listening volume. And the room distorts that even further. Listen loud? Your often hitting 10% distortion due to the speakers then. 

Gerald, that 50% rule is total bs. An amps distortion comes into play around clipping. Rated power is generally at 1% distortion. Why is that? Because its a safe best that 99.9% of the world can't hear 1% distortion with real, dynamic music.

But lets say you could hear that. Drop the distortion to 0.1%, and I'll guarantee you can't hear it with dynamic music.

And by some amazing circumstance you could, you might as well start contacting some of the universities to have some tests ran, because they would PAY to find someone with hearing that good, as its never been done.

You say the higher we get, the more obvious distortion is. But that's actually false. The midrange is by far where we are most sensitive to distortion. The first order of distortion for 6khz is 12khz. Most peoples hearing is started to curve downwards by then.

The car analogy is way out in left field. For one, it assumes low distortion class d doesn't exist. That is false. There are plenty of class d amps that have inaudible distortion.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Like I said earlier, the JL HD has a THD of 0.03% at rated power. Completely inaudible. It wont get any more inaudible going to 0.0008% because you can't hear 0.03% anyways.
> 
> And those miniscule numbers are moot, because the best speakers in the world are still somewhere around 0.5-1% distortion at normal listening volume. And the room distorts that even further. Listen loud? Your often hitting 10% distortion due to the speakers then.
> 
> Gerald, that 50% rule is total bs. An amps distortion comes into play around clipping. Rated power is generally at 1% distortion. Why is that? Because its a safe best that 99.9% of the world can't hear 1% distortion with real, dynamic music.
> 
> But lets say you could hear that. Drop the distortion to 0.1%, and I'll guarantee you can't hear it with dynamic music.
> 
> And by some amazing circumstance you could, you might as well start contacting some of the universities to have some tests ran, because they would PAY to find someone with hearing that good, as its never been done.
> 
> You say the higher we get, the more obvious distortion is. But that's actually false. The midrange is by far where we are most sensitive to distortion. The first order of distortion for 6khz is 12khz. Most peoples hearing is started to curve downwards by then.
> 
> The car analogy is way out in left field. For one, it assumes low distortion class d doesn't exist. That is false. There are plenty of class d amps that have inaudible distortion.


You are right about the mid- range being where our ears are most sensitive. But the little minuscule details that come to life and make a recording sound so incredible are in those mid range and higher frequencies.....

But you are still stuck on distortion. Why don't you comment on an amplifiers ability to control the driver with micro precision?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Let me guess. You talking about damping factor?

Nevermind that it's never been proven that people can actually tell the difference between a high and low damping factor. And MANY tests have been run on that. The ONLY evidence that damping factor numbers above 1 matter are from people that say "but I can hear it so it's real" while conducting sighted testing.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

And again, what is the decay caused by the actual environment? Far far longer than that of ANY amp. So even if you could prove what your saying, it would be masked out of existence in a car.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

To which point are you making reference?

"Prove what I am saying" which point?


----------



## High Resolution Audio

About me being able to hear the cymbals attack more clearly and the decay lasting longer?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

If you switch amps, and the cymbal decay lasts longer, one of them is broken. Amps don't cut that short unless the signal it receives does. Again, unless it's broken.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

And, if as you claim, the better amp has more control over the speakers, why then would decay take longer with the better amp?


----------



## High Resolution Audio

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> And, if as you claim, the better amp has more control over the speakers, why then would decay take longer with the better amp?


Because it takes even the tiniest little bit of information that is there in the recording and translates it into sound waves.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

So that would be noise floor. 

Unless your listening at 130+ db, the difference between a 100db and 120db noise floor is completely moot.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> So that would be noise floor.
> 
> Unless your listening at 130+ db, the difference between a 100db and 120db noise floor is completely moot.


No that is not what noise floor is.

It's about not missing any of the signal content and amplifying all of the signal. 

Even if the signal is small. Good amplifiers will pick up those tiny signals and amplify them....

Most miss a ton of information, because they are too busy switching on and off and/or saving energy.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Lol, that's not what actually happens but ok.


----------



## grinkeeper

its funny how much importance is paid to THD. I know that any amp can be over driven with gains and sound like crap but lets face it here as long as gains are correctly match and set up with DMM then THD should not be an issue.

I have only one example to support this and that being tub amps and SS amps with tube pre-amps. Tube amps are often listed with THD of 5-10%. Tubes are loved and praised in audiophile circles and the distortion doesn’t really enter into it.

When anyones system is turned to 11 its putting strain on not only the amps but also the HU, charging system and not least the drivers. So why are we really putting such importance on THD?

Im sure many newbs think they are hearing amps THD when everything on “11” and Im sure I was like that back in the 80s with my Redline subs and pair of RF punch 45s burning a hole through the floor but what I was hearing was overdrive.

A correctly set up system with proper gain should not allow for people to hear amp THD.


----------



## Elektra

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> You guys are really losing it when you start to bring up THD. For instance, a JL HD makes rated power at 0.03% THD. That is inaudible. Yeah, the Brax is better but what does it really matter when the distortion from the JL is also inaudible?
> 
> Your speakers on the other hand are likely hovering around 0.5-1.0% MINIMUM.




Focal are bringing out new technology in there new sets - the mass tuned damper technology as it has been explained to me by Focal reduces THD in the driver by a significant margin apparently 

The Utopia kits coming out next year will all have this new technology the kits are being completely redesigned FS much lower on the tweeter etc...

Now with a lower distortion driver - not that the current kits are high distortion drivers which I believe they already low distortion drivers as they are - the MTD will make significant advances in THD in the drivers especially the midrange area - the Brax will shine even more when these come into the market

The Utopias are the only drivers I can listen to metal music - every other set of speakers it's just noise to me - I hate noise! 

So this tells me that the Utopias are very low THD drivers with the inverted Beryllium dome there is virtually no Distortion as the metal dome is rigid enough not to deform at high frequencies like a silk dome tweeter would...

The new Kits should be very nice.... waiting patiently....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## claydo

Sheesh.....this thread is FULL of win. Lmao.


----------



## MrGreen83

Turned up to 11 tho?? Lmao. If u can't turn ur volume past 11 without putting a strain on the electrical system...ur gains aren't set correctly...or u have the LOUD EQ set to high and u need to turn it off 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rton20s

claydo said:


> Sheesh.....this thread is FULL of win. Lmao.


----------



## grinkeeper

MrGreen83 said:


> Turned up to 11 tho?? Lmao. If u can't turn ur volume past 11 without putting a strain on the electrical system...ur gains aren't set correctly...or u have the LOUD EQ set to high and u need to turn it off
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


SPINAL TAP reference, I thought every person into music had this term on speed dial.

Basically it means you have everything on MAX plus 1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOO5S4vxi0o


----------



## jtaudioacc

and the diyma credibility goes down a few notches.


----------



## rton20s

jtaudioacc said:


> and the diyma credibility goes down a few notches.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

This thread took longer to really get rolling than I thought it would but as predicted it's just another pissing match where NO ONE is a winner. If anything, this thread should have ended after Erin posted. He's one of the select few that I trust to put snake oil aside and call things like he sees it. Actually, I MIGHT have heard a system with the Brax MX amps recently. He had each one hooked directly to the battery with what looked like 1/0. One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard. Would have still sounded great with quality middle of the road amps.


----------



## Locomotive Tech

And yet I have heard a few with Brax amps say that they can't listen to them for extended periods of time because of thermal shut down. So now you become limited to where you can install these based on cooling or at the mercy of fans.

I drive for long periods and need my system fully operational for long periods. I wonder if there is a point where after listening for a long time where the thermal overload has not activated but the SQ suffers......Not that I am a very smart guy....just curious?


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Locomotive Tech said:


> And yet I have heard a few with Brax amps say that they can't listen to them for extended periods of time because of thermal shut down. So now you become limited to where you can install these based on cooling or at the mercy of fans.
> 
> I drive for long periods and need my system fully operational for long periods. I wonder if there is a point where after listening for a long time where the thermal overload has not activated but the SQ suffers......Not that I am a very smart guy....just curious?


Short answer-stick with your efficient proven performers that still sound damn goodThinking back, I don't think I've ever had an amp thermal on me. Gotten a few hot enough to fry eggs on though.


----------



## Victor_inox

Locomotive Tech said:


> And yet I have heard a few with Brax amps say that they can't listen to them for extended periods of time because of thermal shut down. So now you become limited to where you can install these based on cooling or at the mercy of fans.
> 
> I drive for long periods and need my system fully operational for long periods. I wonder if there is a point where after listening for a long time where the thermal overload has not activated but the SQ suffers......Not that I am a very smart guy....just curious?


Such a nonsense, one of the most thermally stable amplifiers in industry.
THey get warm by design.


----------



## Elektra

Victor_inox said:


> Such a nonsense, one of the most thermally stable amplifiers in industry.
> 
> THey get warm by design.




Played mine for 5 hours straight... it was too hot too touch but never faltered Thesis was equally hot...

Amp must get hot in my opinion.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ChrisB

My last three system amplifiers were: a JL Audio HD900/5 in my Mustang; a Lunar L1500 and L450 in my WRX; and a MMATS HIFI-6150D in my GTI. While Lunar is no longer in business, I saw no disadvantage to the JL HD or MMATS HIFI line. 

Prior to that, I was chasing my tail in search of the ultimate SQ amplifier only to realize that speaker selection, install, and tuning have a greater audible impact than amplifier choice. As long as it doesn't produce audible hiss/distortion/turn on/off thump or have a loud ass fan, I can probably make an amplifier work in my system.


----------



## Victor_inox

Elektra said:


> Played mine for 5 hours straight... it was too hot too touch but never faltered Thesis was equally hot...
> 
> Amp must get hot in my opinion....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I played mine for weeks at the bench no overheat nor thermal shutdown.
85C is normal temperature for amps like that, way too hot to touch.


----------



## ChrisB

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Short answer-stick with your efficient proven performers that still sound damn goodThinking back, I don't think I've ever had an amp thermal on me. Gotten a few hot enough to fry eggs on though.


In college, I set a circa 1993 Punch 150 on fire. Does that count as a thermal? The good news is Rockford Fosgate replaced it under warranty. :laugh:


----------



## Elektra

Victor_inox said:


> I played mine for weeks at the bench no overheat nor thermal shutdown.
> 
> 85C is normal temperature for amps like that, way too hot to touch.




Nice to know - I was wondering how hot is too hot on the Brax


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Niebur3

Above all else, silence. My Sinfoni amps are absolutely dead silent. Turn the system on and you hear absolutely nothing until the music comes in. This can't be said for all amps.


----------



## Victor_inox

Niebur3 said:


> Above all else, silence. My Sinfoni amps are absolutely dead silent. Turn the system on and you hear absolutely nothing until the music comes in. This can't be said for all amps.


Sinfoni and rest of quality amplifiers.....


----------



## Locomotive Tech

Victor_inox said:


> Such a nonsense, one of the most thermally stable amplifiers in industry.
> THey get warm by design.


Well if they get "warm" (too hot to touch), by design then why did hers shut down? Bad install location? Not enough ventilation? It is not nonsense, makes perfect sense to me.

But again, I am not the smartest when it comes to the A/B world. It just seems that choosing a high end amp would be the last upgrade I would make to a system.

And by the way, she ended up getting class D amps. This allowed her to pack her trunk with her weekend gear and was able to sustain the traffic on the LIE without an issue. It just seems a waste to not be able to actually use your car as a .........car and still have excellent tunes. I would bet the OP would not want to sacrafice the entire trunk because......oh sorry hunny we cant take that cause the amps are there and may melt the..... whatever.


----------



## backousis

Victor_inox said:


> I played mine for weeks at the bench no overheat nor thermal shutdown.
> 85C is normal temperature for amps like that, way too hot to touch.


no amp is working at 85C.

Even class A don,t exceed 55-60C.


----------



## Victor_inox

Locomotive Tech said:


> Well if they get "warm" (too hot to touch), by design then why did hers shut down? Bad install location? Not enough ventilation? It is not nonsense, makes perfect sense to me.
> 
> But again, I am not the smartest when it comes to the A/B world. It just seems that choosing a high end amp would be the last upgrade I would make to a system.
> 
> And by the way, she ended up getting class D amps. This allowed her to pack her trunk with her weekend gear and was able to sustain the traffic on the LIE without an issue. It just seems a waste to not be able to actually use your car as a .........car and still have excellent tunes. I would bet the OP would not want to sacrafice the entire trunk because......oh sorry hunny we cant take that cause the amps are there and may melt the..... whatever.


Perhaps hers defective, how the hell you expect remote diagnosis?
No one oppose class D amps, they can get "too hot to touch" too.


----------



## Victor_inox

backousis said:


> no amp is working at 85C.
> 
> Even class A don,t exceed 55-60C.


 
55-60C at what ambient temp?


----------



## backousis

Victor_inox said:


> 55-60C at what ambient temp?


At worst case scenario.
more than that would reduce their lifetime a lot.
if they exceed that they need bigger heatsinks or fans.


----------



## Locomotive Tech

Victor_inox said:


> Perhaps hers defective, how the hell you expect remote diagnosis?
> No one oppose class D amps, they can get "too hot to touch" too.


I doubt that she had multiple defective units from Brax, don't worry about the diagnosis, her husband's installer did them right which I should throw a shout out to but that might be inappropriate here.

I can't see how ambient temp. is even a factor, should there be an OAT when you can't listen to your system. 

If your Class D is too hot to touch I would suspect that there is an issue like too much EQ, too much gain etc.

And don't get me wrong, If I could afford everything I would probably have something along these, Brax, Bewith, Sinfoni etc. But when people ask me for sound advice the first thing I think to myself is; If this was a good friend of mine and asked me the same question before purchasing a product, is this the advice I would give?


----------



## Victor_inox

backousis said:


> At worst case scenario.
> more than that would reduce their lifetime a lot.
> if they exceed that they need bigger heatsinks or fans.


Bro I design/build amplifiers for living....

worst case being how high? 40-45C ambient is common in car installations.
Nothing gonna happen for any class amplifier working up to 85C and not uncommon to 90-95C, in fact most thermal protection set to around 140C.
High temp shorten lifespan of components but 85C for capacitors is normal, 105C is most common for car amplifiers. resistors and semiconductors withstand 180C with ease.
Class A at ambient temp 20C will get to 60C in 30 minutes without forced cooling.


----------



## Victor_inox

Locomotive Tech said:


> I doubt that she had multiple defective units from Brax, don't worry about the diagnosis, her husband's installer did them right which I should throw a shout out to but that might be inappropriate here.
> 
> I can't see how ambient temp. is even a factor, should there be an OAT when you can't listen to your system.
> 
> If your Class D is too hot to touch I would suspect that there is an issue like too much EQ, too much gain etc.
> 
> And don't get me wrong, If I could afford everything I would probably have something along these, Brax, Bewith, Sinfoni etc. But when people ask me for sound advice the first thing I think to myself is; If this was a good friend of mine and asked me the same question before purchasing a product, is this the advice I would give?


 Ambient temp is a factor, every car amp manual said to install in well ventilated area. some even specify orientation to promote better convection cooling. If amp shuts down due to overheat there is one of two reasons- bad ventilation or inappropriate load. or of course bad amplifier.


----------



## backousis

Victor_inox said:


> Bro I design/build amplifiers for living....
> 
> worst case being how high? 40-45C ambient is common in car installations.
> Nothing gonna happen for any class amplifier working up to 85C and not uncommon to 90-95C, in fact most thermal protection set to around 140C.
> High temp shorten lifespan of components but 85C for capacitors is normal, 105C is most common for car amplifiers. resistors and semiconductors withstand 180C with ease.
> Class A at ambient temp 20C will get to 60C in 30 minutes without forced cooling.


yes nothing will happen instantly but you think 105C caps is ok to work at 85C 
all the time?


----------



## Victor_inox

backousis said:


> yes nothing will happen instantly but you think 105C caps is ok to work at 85C
> all the time?


2000hours at 105 translates into 200000 hours at 85C. 
What is longest warranty in industry 3 years? No quality capacitors should fail. 
Buying quality amplifier means all parts used are appropriate quality.
I test my amps in oven.at ambient temperature 120F. If it works reliably at that temp it will work in car trunk for a long time.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## grinkeeper

Victor_inox said:


> 2000hours at 105 translates into 200000 hours at 85C.
> What is longest warranty in industry 3 years? No quality capacitors should fail.
> Buying quality amplifier means all parts used are appropriate quality.
> I test my amps in oven.at ambient temperature 120F. If it works reliably at that temp it will work in car trunk for a long time.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


I wrap mine in Bacon


----------



## Elektra

Installing these amps appropriately is obviously a must even funneling cold air from the AC to the trunk area could be a plan as well - 9 months in a year the ambient temp would not go beyond say 30deg but some days the temps go to 40deg and cabin temp is over 50deg this will be if the car stands in the sun - but cools down when you open windows etc but in a sealed trunk it's still 50deg add multiple amps and it's gonna cook in the trunk - so some AC in the boot will control the ambient temp to around 20deg - the brax amp is playing a high bias which is why it gets hot...

This is why it's a great sounding amp... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## backousis

Victor_inox said:


> 2000hours at 105 translates into 200000 hours at 85C.
> What is longest warranty in industry 3 years? No quality capacitors should fail.
> Buying quality amplifier means all parts used are appropriate quality.
> I test my amps in oven.at ambient temperature 120F. If it works reliably at that temp it will work in car trunk for a long time.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


haven't you see old class A amps with black pcb around resistors from high temp?

i have a hatchback so the trunk is not so hot but i driven a sedan i would sure
do something about ventilation especially with high bias amps.

i have DIY high bias amps at home and i have fans with temperature sensors
that kick in after 45C

they don,t kick in easily but i want to be safe


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

ChrisB said:


> In college, I set a circa 1993 Punch 150 on fire. Does that count as a thermal? The good news is Rockford Fosgate replaced it under warranty. :laugh:


I always thought those amps had to be on fire in one way or another to work properly. I hear they made great cabin heaters:laugh:


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Elektra said:


> Installing these amps appropriately is obviously a must even funneling cold air from the AC to the trunk area could be a plan as well - 9 months in a year the ambient temp would not go beyond say 30deg but some days the temps go to 40deg and cabin temp is over 50deg this will be if the car stands in the sun - but cools down when you open windows etc but in a sealed trunk it's still 50deg add multiple amps and it's gonna cook in the trunk - so some AC in the boot will control the ambient temp to around 20deg - the brax amp is playing a high bias which is why it gets hot...
> 
> This is why it's a great sounding amp...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have rear air in my Jeep and was actually looking at mounting locations under the back seats where the rear air can reach it. Got a good flat spot back there where my amp just might get a direct hit from cold air. Obviously if I can't get a thin piece of mdf/hdpe/whatever under the thick backed carpet for the screws to bite in to I won't use that location but it's an option. It does look like some good coarse thread screws would hold in the backing for normal driving and the occasional panic stop, but all bets would be off in an accident.


----------



## FG79

High Resolution Audio said:


> Look at it this way.
> 
> Lets use a car analogy.
> 
> Power in wattage = horsepower.
> 
> An American muscle car in the 1970's ( GTO )had relatively high horsepower and could accelerate in a straight line quickly but could handle for ****.
> 
> Kind of like a powerful Class D amplifier. Can move a big sub-woofer effortlessly, without breaking a sweat. This could pressurize a vehicle's interior relatively easily, which is why they are used in SPL competitions.
> 
> Take that muscle car and put it on a curvy race track. What good is all that horsepower if you do not have any control over it. The tires will squeal and it would be on the edge of loosing control trying to go around the curves. And it wouldn't be able to slow down or stop for ****. This would be the amp with high distortion level.
> 
> A class A amplifier would be equivalent to a finely tuned sports car like a Porsche. It may not have the raw horsepower, but it can race around the track and handle all of the curves effortlessly.
> This would be the equivalent of a low distortion amp.
> 
> Usually, 50% of the amplifiers maximum power is clean. After that distortion comes heavily into play.
> 
> If the race were all curves the Porsche would win.
> If the race were a drag strip the GTO would win.
> 
> Music is the equivalent of both. The low frequencies need big power, while the high frequencies need the finesse.
> 
> High frequencies are easier to locate and lows are not. As we get higher and higher up in frequencies, we need more and more control as a little distortion becomes very apparent.
> 
> In order to get the finest resolution from a system, one must have a boatload of power that can be controlled. Like an Enzo Ferrari.
> 
> Your source material will be the fuel.
> 
> Sure all of the vehicles will run on 87 Octane and get you down the street.
> Move upward to 103 Octane Racing Fuel, and the improvements will be not as apparent in the Muscle Car ( low resolution system ) and significant in the porsche ( medium resolution ) but dramatic in the Ferrari ( high resolution )
> 
> To say that one can put upgraded parts on the GTO and get it to handle like the Ferrari is just plain ludicrous.
> 
> That would be the equivalent of saying with enough tuning I can get a GTO to drive like a Ferrari. It just ain't gonna happen.
> 
> A great amplifier is going to be able to control that speaker more accurately.


What happens when you have a Ferrari GTO?


----------



## ChrisB

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I always thought those amps had to be on fire in one way or another to work properly. I hear they made great cabin heaters:laugh:


In all seriousness, that replacement Punch 150 was the only amp that ever did a thermal shutdown on me bridged at 4 ohms. I thought I had blown the amp again. 

OTOH, I had an Orion HCCA 225 bridged below recommended spec, that ran stupid hot but never shut off. IMHO, that was an amazing design for the time because it took a licking and kept on ticking!


----------



## High Resolution Audio

On post 155 Elektra made reference to the Brax amp being "High Bias". I will be the first one to admit that I do not understand electronic circuitry. But as an electrician, I do understand electrical theory.

So I did a google search for High Bias Amplifiers and came up with an article written by the great Nelson Pass who is regarded as one of the best amplifier designers of all times.

In an earlier post, I made reference to not hearing all of the music when I switched amps on my tweeters. The attack was cut short and the sustain or decay lasted only half as long. 

Some argued that it was the placebo effect. Some agreed that there is an audible difference. I also made reference to distortion. The article written by Nelson Pass explains the technical side and makes counterpoints to those arguing against my claims. Looking at the sine wave diagrams explains exactly what I was describing I was hearing......like a portion of the music was missing.

https://passlabs.com/press/leaving-class

There were also people that made reference to amplifier choice not being high up on the list when selecting components to put together a SQ system. For those of you putting together a budget system, or a middle of the line system that is relatively good sounding, is amplifier selection going to make an audible difference. Probably not. Especially those of you who listen to music via MP3 or phones for convenience. 

For those of us that have a High Resolution Audio System, with high quality drivers, and high quality source unit, playing music from quality sources like CDs or High Resolution Files, amplifier selection will make big difference in sound quality, and so will cables. Every thing will have an impact on the overall sound quality starting with the Battery.

When it comes to cables, the resistance for DC circuits and impedance for AC circuits of the wire and connections/terminations will have an affect on the overall sound quality in a High Resolution System. 

Do most of us have high resolution systems? Probably less than 10% if I were to guess.

Where does amplifier selection fall on a list of importance when it comes to putting together a high resolution system.

1. Driver Selection
2. Source Unit
3. Musical Content
4. Installation
5. Amplifiers
6. Cables


----------



## bnae38

0. Must be tuning.


----------



## MikeS

High Resolution Audio said:


> For those of you putting together a budget system, or a middle of the line system that is relatively good sounding, is amplifier selection going to make an audible difference. Probably not. Especially those of you who listen to music via MP3 or phones for convenience.


Ofcourse it is, the amplifiers ability to drive the speakers is not the same.
Theres good ones for little money as there is bad ones aswell.
It's got nothing to do with streaming services, bluetooth or mp3.


----------



## sqnut

A really good tuner with any decent 3-4K setup and install will blow a $50,000 setup with an average tuner, out of the water.

If 10% of the people can afford the esoteric setup, then less than 1% of people actually know how to tune. The only people who will claim that expensive equipment gives you a more revealing setup are either the manufacturers or folks who buy the equipment but are all thumbs when it comes to tuning. No one who really knows how to tune will ever say that equipment is key to good sound. Equipment is no more than 10% of the story.


----------



## ChrisB

bnae38 said:


> 0. Must be tuning.


What I have learned is this... If an amplifier does anything other than amplifying the signal that is fed to it, something is wrong.

One can argue with me until they are blue in the face on this one but if there is an airiness, openness, or a warmth through harmonic distortion touted by one amplifier over another, the amplifier is doing something other than amplifying said signal. Going further, if one can pick out all these subtle nuances while actually driving the vehicle, kudos to them. I can't, so I'll stick with what fits in a given install while providing me the power that I desire. 

Now, the one difference I have noticed between the classes of amplifiers is how they clip. Class AB amplifiers generally clip better than Class D amplifiers. My solution to this at one time was to run enough power to set the speakers on fire where power compression would kick in long before clipping ever would. I'm not running that much power now, but my midbass/high frequency drivers are overpowered by a factor of 2 compared to their touted RMS handling ability. In the past, I have overpowered those same drivers by a factor of 5 or greater.

Lastly, I once owned a Class A biased amplifier that drew every bit of 140 amps to make 200 x 2 @ 4 ohms stereo. It sounded awesome, but required one hell of an electrical system just to run properly. But alas, it was doing something other than amplifying the signal given to it and would have measured like crap on the Audio Precision. Unless I was sitting there with the car off while listening to this particular amplifier, I couldn't hear the additional "warmth" generated by the heavy class A bias. It was big, drew a lot of current, and just didn't work with my last two compact vehicles, so I traded it.


----------



## backousis

High Resolution Audio said:


> On post 155 Elektra made reference to the Brax amp being "High Bias". I will be the first one to admit that I do not understand electronic circuitry. But as an electrician, I do understand electrical theory.
> 
> So I did a google search for High Bias Amplifiers and came up with an article written by the great Nelson Pass who is regarded as one of the best amplifier designers of all times.
> 
> In an earlier post, I made reference to not hearing all of the music when I switched amps on my tweeters. The attack was cut short and the sustain or decay lasted only half as long.
> 
> Some argued that it was the placebo effect. Some agreed that there is an audible difference. I also made reference to distortion. The article written by Nelson Pass explains the technical side and makes counterpoints to those arguing against my claims. Looking at the sine wave diagrams explains exactly what I was describing I was hearing......like a portion of the music was missing.
> 
> https://passlabs.com/press/leaving-class
> 
> There were also people that made reference to amplifier choice not being high up on the list when selecting components to put together a SQ system. For those of you putting together a budget system, or a middle of the line system that is relatively good sounding, is amplifier selection going to make an audible difference. Probably not. Especially those of you who listen to music via MP3 or phones for convenience.
> 
> For those of us that have a High Resolution Audio System, with high quality drivers, and high quality source unit, playing music from quality sources like CDs or High Resolution Files, amplifier selection will make big difference in sound quality, and so will cables. Every thing will have an impact on the overall sound quality starting with the Battery.
> 
> When it comes to cables, the resistance for DC circuits and impedance for AC circuits of the wire and connections/terminations will have an affect on the overall sound quality in a High Resolution System.
> 
> Do most of us have high resolution systems? Probably less than 10% if I were to guess.
> 
> Where does amplifier selection fall on a list of importance when it comes to putting together a high resolution system.
> 
> 1. Driver Selection
> 2. Source Unit
> 3. Musical Content
> 4. Installation
> 5. Amplifiers
> 6. Cables


1.tuning
2.driver selection
3.amplifiers
4.musical content
5.source unit
6.battery-electrical system
7.cables

imho


----------



## MikeS

sqnut said:


> A really good tuner with any decent 3-4K setup and install will blow a $50,000 setup with an average tuner, out of the water.
> 
> If 10% of the people can afford the esoteric setup, then less than 1% of people actually know how to tune. The only people who will claim that expensive equipment gives you a more revealing setup are either the manufacturers or folks who buy the equipment but are all thumbs when it comes to tuning. No one who really knows how to tune will ever say that equipment is key to good sound. Equipment is no more than 10% of the story.


I remember sitting in two very different cars when I was still too young to drive (over here 18) before all this mp3's getting popular which demonstrated this very clearly. Other one was a standard civic with pretty basic system which most would have considered quite expensive back then. The civic sounded amazing and there was more than enough of accurate bass. 

Other car had pioneer expensive this and that and obviously cost a lot in addition to car being bmw 5 series. It sounded harsh and lacked any bass. He obviously noted that I didn't like it too much and kept saying how many coats of lacquer there is on the car. (which looked absolutely stock to me)


----------



## sqnut

MikeS said:


> He obviously noted that I didn't like it too much and kept saying how many coats of lacquer there is on the car. (which looked absolutely stock to me)


A bad carpenter always blames his tools.


----------



## MikeS

sqnut said:


> A bad carpenter always blames his tools.


Ah yes  meant to say how many coats of clear but yes he tried to steer the attention outside.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

backousis said:


> 1.tuning
> 2.driver selection
> 3.amplifiers
> 4.musical content
> 5.source unit
> 6.battery-electrical system
> 7.cables
> 
> imho


That's more inline with my thoughts. But let's put "install" as number one

One thing that I've learned over time and the hard way I might add, is not being humble and touting your system as awesome will cause you to eat humble pie over and over again. What it does is give people really high expectations to where they LOOK AND LISTEN for problems. Gerald, I really hope you make it to the NCSQ meet in April so we can see for ourselves if your claims are actually true. I hope they are because you'll have some very talented and critical sets of ears in there hoping for the best. I'll have a pretty modest system that will be a far cry from what was in the Ram. Too bad only I got to hear it after I got it lined out with rta. Decent equipment with a good rta tune behind a questionable source will be what I go with. Will only compete for ****s and giggles to see where I stand. That's what's so great about this hobby. You get people from all walks of life that all have the same basic set of goals...to get the best sound they can out of what they have and how far they're willing to take their install. Not everyone is willing to take up a ton of space with amps and processors. Not everyone has a big budget. Not everyone wants to have pods visible on their dash. Not everyone wants to carry around tons of cd's and dvd's. I'll admit, I'm really enjoying the xsm that was active with my vehicle purchase. I don't require the best recording possible if I don't already have it in my possession. If you seek out and spend money on the best recordings possible more power to you. If that's not important to someone that's their choice. If someone chooses to use factory speaker locations to maintain a clean look, that's their choice. If someone chooses to use small class d amps, that's their choice. How each person pulls everything together for the final result is what's important.


----------



## Elektra

Hillbilly SQ said:


> That's more inline with my thoughts. But let's put "install" as number one
> 
> 
> 
> One thing that I've learned over time and the hard way I might add, is not being humble and touting your system as awesome will cause you to eat humble pie over and over again. What it does is give people really high expectations to where they LOOK AND LISTEN for problems. Gerald, I really hope you make it to the NCSQ meet in April so we can see for ourselves if your claims are actually true. I hope they are because you'll have some very talented and critical sets of ears in there hoping for the best. I'll have a pretty modest system that will be a far cry from what was in the Ram. Too bad only I got to hear it after I got it lined out with rta. Decent equipment with a good rta tune behind a questionable source will be what I go with. Will only compete for ****s and giggles to see where I stand. That's what's so great about this hobby. You get people from all walks of life that all have the same basic set of goals...to get the best sound they can out of what they have and how far they're willing to take their install. Not everyone is willing to take up a ton of space with amps and processors. Not everyone has a big budget. Not everyone wants to have pods visible on their dash. Not everyone wants to carry around tons of cd's and dvd's. I'll admit, I'm really enjoying the xsm that was active with my vehicle purchase. I don't require the best recording possible if I don't already have it in my possession. If you seek out and spend money on the best recordings possible more power to you. If that's not important to someone that's their choice. If someone chooses to use factory speaker locations to maintain a clean look, that's their choice. If someone chooses to use small class d amps, that's their choice. How each person pulls everything together for the final result is what's important.




I would do the following:

1) Source Unit - junk in junk out - goal is to avoid Junk in
2) Amp - well it powers your whole system
3) Speakers - well that's what we listen to at the end don't we
4) Battery and Electrical - well doesn't help if you can't start your car after 1 song
5) Cables - I just believe they are important
6) Install - because most of us know how to install a system - not everyone knows how to make it look pretty or have the tools , space and time
7) Tuning - we mostly know how to do this - what we struggle with we ask

All have to be equally good... no emphasis on one being more than the other...

I agree with your statement - everyone to themselves - everyone must ultimately enjoy what your listening to - doesn't matter how much each one of us spends in our respective rides

If I could get exactly what I want in a system for much less $$$ I'll be the first in line....

The problem is I don't know what I actually want in a system so I am striving for excellence - that may not ultimately be there to strive for... 

All I know is that every "SQ Comp" car I listen to sounds like a slightly better OEM system... I think I may have too high standards 

But I must say my last system before I sold the car was for me a system I could sit and listen to for hours... but that's generally the case when you spend hours listening and tuning your own car - other cars tend to sound inferior....

We don't spend enough time in other cars to get a unbiased opinion of there setup.. 






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## backousis

Hillbilly SQ said:


> That's more inline with my thoughts. But let's put "install" as number one


The only reason i used tuning is because a lot of installers know how to install a system but very few know how to tune.

a have accomplish huge improvements at cars with installs and tuning by some of the "best" installers in my city only by tuning.


----------



## backousis

Elektra said:


> I would do the following:
> 
> 1) Source Unit - junk in junk out - goal is to avoid Junk in
> 2) Amp - well it powers your whole system
> 3) Speakers - well that's what we listen to at the end don't we
> 4) Battery and Electrical - well doesn't help if you can't start your car after 1 song
> 5) Cables - I just believe they are important
> 6) Install - because most of us know how to install a system - not everyone knows how to make it look pretty or have the tools , space and time
> 7) Tuning - we mostly know how to do this - what we struggle with we ask


ok since you talk about people from this forum l believe they know how to install and tune since people that don,t love this hobby will just go and pay somebody to do it.

Now about the rest everything is important at a hi end system and the better it is the more you can hear the weakest link.

still about the gear you are right about garbage in-garbage out but most source units are decent those days.

on the other hand drivers are the weakest link and have the bigger differences.

amplifiers are important but if you go active their job is easier to drive with authority.

recordings are very important also

i can only listen to flac alac and wav at a good system

mp3 etc sound bad.

cables make a difference too but smaller


----------



## High Resolution Audio

It is my theory that a higher bias amplifier will be able to pick up more of the source signal and amplify it with less distortion and more ease than one with a lower bias. Using this type of amplifier will allow the drivers to be controlled more accurately, which then in turn will equate to a more detailed presentation of the same source material to allow for a more detailed listening experience. 

It is also my theory that I can hear a difference on my tweeters when switching from one amplifier to another. It is also my theory that I cannot perceive any difference when switching said amps on the mid range drivers.

It is also my theory that in order to hear differences, one must have a system capable of revealing those differences.

It is also my theory that one must be trained in order how to evaluate musical presentations in order to be able to judge them. Harman has done experimentation and research on this and made training courses.

After giving it some thought, and reflecting on my past and present experiences, I concur with Elektra and would move source unit to the top of the list in regards to what is most important in creating a high resolution sound system.

In my opinion, in order to fully enjoy a high resolution sound system one must be parked and not driving with the engine off and the lights out. None of this is necessary, but in my opinion it enhances the experience. 

I sit and listen to music for hours at a time after work. Some people do not understand why, and that's O.K. People think that I am crazy. It's more than an hobby for me, it's my passion. 

So I may be a little more particular when it comes to selecting audio components when it comes to sound quality. 

But I am not as concerned with aesthetics. Some like to put their amplifiers on display, make cool looking recessed coves with L.E.D. lighting, etc.

For me, it's all about the sound.


----------



## backousis

High Resolution Audio said:


> It is my theory that a higher bias amplifier will be able to pick up more of the source signal and amplify it with less distortion and more ease than one with a lower bias. Using this type of amplifier will allow the drivers to be controlled more accurately, which then in turn will equate to a more detailed presentation of the same source material to allow for a more detailed listening experience.
> 
> It is also my theory that I can hear a difference on my tweeters when switching from one amplifier to another. It is also my theory that I cannot perceive any difference when switching said amps on the mid range drivers.
> 
> 
> After giving it some thought, and reflecting on my past and present experiences, I concur with Elektra and would move source unit to the top of the list in regards to what is most important in creating a high resolution sound system.


a high bias works at class A for the first watts with all the benefits of class A.

off course there is a difference to the midrange but i am not sure how audible it is in a car.

i guess if the midrange drivers are installed on axis it will be audible.

you hear big difference between source units with a top of the line speakers and
amps but with lesser speakers and amps those differences are masked that's why i place it lower.


----------



## claydo




----------



## sqnut

High Resolution Audio said:


> It is my theory that a higher bias amplifier will be able to pick up more of the source signal and amplify it with less distortion and more ease than one with a lower bias. Using this type of amplifier will allow the drivers to be controlled more accurately, which then in turn will equate to a more detailed presentation of the same source material to allow for a more detailed listening experience.
> 
> It is also my theory that I can hear a difference on my tweeters when switching from one amplifier to another. It is also my theory that I cannot perceive any difference when switching said amps on the mid range drivers.
> 
> It is also my theory that in order to hear differences, one must have a system capable of revealing those differences.
> 
> It is also my theory that one must be trained in order how to evaluate musical presentations in order to be able to judge them. Harman has done experimentation and research on this and made training courses.
> 
> After giving it some thought, and reflecting on my past and present experiences, I concur with Elektra and would move source unit to the top of the list in regards to what is most important in creating a high resolution sound system.
> 
> In my opinion, in order to fully enjoy a high resolution sound system one must be parked and not driving with the engine off and the lights out. None of this is necessary, but in my opinion it enhances the experience.
> 
> I sit and listen to music for hours at a time after work. Some people do not understand why, and that's O.K. People think that I am crazy. It's more than an hobby for me, it's my passion.
> 
> So I may be a little more particular when it comes to selecting audio components when it comes to sound quality.
> 
> But I am not as concerned with aesthetics. Some like to put their amplifiers on display, make cool looking recessed coves with L.E.D. lighting, etc.
> 
> For me, it's all about the sound.


Compete at a MECA 3X event, get a score of 82+ and then come back and tell us about your theories. Till then, your theories and everything you're supposedly hearing on your resolving system, are just personal opinions that are subject to perception bias. 

Sorry about doing this, but you and Elektra are clogging up the forum with your mumbo jumbo and misinformation. I'm done here.


----------



## Elektra

sqnut said:


> Compete at a MECA 3X event, get a score of 82+ and then come back and tell us about your theories. Till then, your theories and everything you're supposedly hearing on your resolving system, are just personal opinions that are subject to perception bias.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry about doing this, but you and Elektra are clogging up the forum with your mumbo jumbo and misinformation. I'm done here.




That's complete BS and you know it...

You can have the best tonally accurate car on the planet and still come nowhere in a comp because your Centre is a little off etc etc... your car may be brilliant in one aspect but not great in other aspects 

A car with a walmart special could beat you on the basis that it's more technically accurate but sounds like horses ass tonally...

Over here if you look at the amount of points given for actual things I care about it's amounts to only 1/3 of the points in total - which means if you get the other 2/3rd's right and do badly in the one 1/3 you still have a chance to win your class...

I experienced that first hand - I lost by 10 points over all and I listened to that car and thought WTF is this.... but I guess his car was technically better than mine - but i felt I was listened to a system that was only marginally better sounding than my OEM BMW E90 - tonally....

To some extent you don't have to have the best tonally accurate car to have the best car in a Comp. You just need the best technically accurate car... 

Even though your tweeters make your ears bleed - you could still beat or come within a few points of winning because you technically did things right... 

So you came within a few points of the winner - his car cost 10 times yours - pat yourself on the back and tell all your buddies what an idiot he was for spending 10 times more than you... 

BUT...

Tonally the other car was miles better the only reason the cheaper car came so close was because both cars ticked the boxes technically but the more expensive car got more points on tonality than you... 

But tonality is only a small points section in the whole comp... its to level the playing field between a $2000 car to a $20000 car - gives guys something to aim for and hopefully encourage them to end up with a $20k car down the road - it's called building the industry where everyone benefits..

How does the industry grow when guys tell everyone not to spend cash on products.... 

Audio can be an expensive game - but it's doesn't have to cost a fortune to have something you can enjoy...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

My issues with comps is the following...

The comp is sponsored by a brand let's say DLS - the judges are the DLS importers - who do you think wins? - DLS 
The judges for that show are guys from the industry - so when you call a spade a spade on social media - they remember you and you don't do that well because of who you are..

The other scenario is that the judges are not influenced or biased but they don't know what an instrument sounds like - all they care about is Centre Centre and does the drum appear where it should if it does you get your points - it doesn't matter to that judge if your drum actually does sound like a drum where other cars doesn't sound as accurate so you may get a few points more in the tonal part - if he thinks it sounds better or not. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut

Elektra said:


> That's complete BS and you know it...
> 
> You can have the best tonally accurate car on the planet and still come nowhere in a comp because your Centre is a little off etc etc... your car may be brilliant in one aspect but not great in other aspects





Elektra said:


> A car with a walmart special could beat you on the basis that it's more technically accurate but sounds like horses ass tonally...


Too much of reading the internet but 0 relevant knowledge. Technically accurate includes tonality. You're coming of reading 100's of noob posts that say 'I heard the winning cars SQ tune and it was meh and seemed lacking'. This happens due to two reasons:

1. The competitor decided to give an audition with a **** tune, just for kicks.

2. The noob can't hear the difference between his tune and good sound.



Elektra said:


> Over here if you look at the amount of points given for actual things I care about it's amounts to only 1/3 of the points in total - which means if you get the other 2/3rd's right and do badly in the one 1/3 you still have a chance to win your class...


The points are for all aspects of the experience, if only 1/3 matter to you, if you only care about tonality and less about imaging and stability of image, then you're not the real audiophile you're trying to project yourself as. Oh, and here's a little secret, better imaging=better tonality. Only a noob would believe that you can get 80/100 on tonality and 10/100 on imaging. 



Elektra said:


> I experienced that first hand - I lost by 10 points over all and I listened to that car and thought WTF is this.... but I guess his car was technically better than mine - but i felt I was listened to a system that was only marginally better sounding than my OEM BMW E90 - tonally....


See the first point. 



Elektra said:


> To some extent you don't have to have the best tonally accurate car to have the best car in a Comp. You just need the best technically accurate car... Even though your tweeters make your ears bleed - you could still beat or come within a few points of winning because you technically did things right...


Stop saying that, you sound like the total opposite of who you want to project yourself as. You can't be technically accurate with a **** tune, unless you're competing in an RTA competition.

I think I've said enough, as beyond this you were just repeating yourself.


----------



## claydo

And mr. Nut dropped the mic.....


----------



## Elektra

sqnut said:


> Too much of reading the internet but 0 relevant knowledge. Technically accurate includes tonality. You're coming of reading 100's of noob posts that say 'I heard the winning cars SQ tune and it was meh and seemed lacking'. This happens due to two reasons:
> 
> 1. The competitor decided to give an audition with a **** tune, just for kicks.
> 
> 2. The noob can't hear the difference between his tune and good sound.
> 
> 
> 
> The points are for all aspects of the experience, if only 1/3 matter to you, if you only care about tonality and less about imaging and stability of image, then you're not the real audiophile you're trying to project yourself as. Oh, and here's a little secret, better imaging=better tonality. Only a noob would believe that you can get 80/100 on tonality and 10/100 on imaging.
> 
> 
> 
> See the first point.
> 
> 
> 
> Stop saying that, you sound like the total opposite of who you want to project yourself as. You can't be technically accurate with a **** tune, unless you're competing in an RTA competition.
> 
> I think I've said enough, as beyond this you were just repeating yourself.




Your talking from an installers point of view - I am not - I have heard tons of cars that all sound different built and tuned by the same person...


Does a tube amp not sound different to a AB amp? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

sqnut said:


> Too much of reading the internet but 0 relevant knowledge. Technically accurate includes tonality. You're coming of reading 100's of noob posts that say 'I heard the winning cars SQ tune and it was meh and seemed lacking'. This happens due to two reasons:
> 
> 1. The competitor decided to give an audition with a **** tune, just for kicks.
> 
> 2. The noob can't hear the difference between his tune and good sound.
> 
> 
> 
> The points are for all aspects of the experience, if only 1/3 matter to you, if you only care about tonality and less about imaging and stability of image, then you're not the real audiophile you're trying to project yourself as. Oh, and here's a little secret, better imaging=better tonality. Only a noob would believe that you can get 80/100 on tonality and 10/100 on imaging.
> 
> 
> 
> See the first point.
> 
> 
> 
> Stop saying that, you sound like the total opposite of who you want to project yourself as. You can't be technically accurate with a **** tune, unless you're competing in an RTA competition.
> 
> I think I've said enough, as beyond this you were just repeating yourself.




And when I say tonally accurate I mean - a speaker playing a lower THD to another will sound more tonally accurate which you cannot tune to match a lower THD system - if you say you can your talking BS

So whilst you can get perfect Centre and perfect imagery etc you cannot get a lower THD - simple fact...

A system tuned the same way with a lower THD player will always sound better - I don't care what you say... 

It's called equipment limits - nobody can tune that better - just like you can't make a Class D amp sound exactly the same as a Tube amp...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## backousis

usually the winning cars sound awesome.
maybe somebody prefers the second car over the first but they will both be very good
i have never seen two cars to have big difference and the worst car win


----------



## Elektra

backousis said:


> usually the winning cars sound awesome.
> maybe somebody prefers the second car over the first but they will both be very good
> i have never seen two cars to have big difference and the worst car win




I listened to a undefeated IASCA car and felt his detail level lacked - heard another car and felt that his tonality was a bit grainy 

They all winning cars - maybe my ears are too sensitive or my standards too high


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## claydo

Oh...now I see.....what you're saying is that the elite competitors of the world, well, they have no idea what they are doing, and if they'd simply listen to you and buy the correct equipment, they too could have a car that doesent win at competitions like your own? I mean these ****ty cars keep winning, so when I took mine and it doesent dominate, well, that just proves the judges really have no clue? Dude....just stop, please.....

I'm not gonna claim that every contest is fair, that cronyism, and brand loyalty has never played a part, but those who consistently win.....year in and year out, tend to have stoopid good cars, and an idea of what it takes to create a killer system.


----------



## backousis

Elektra said:


> I listened to a undefeated IASCA car and felt his detail level lacked - heard another car and felt that his tonality was a bit grainy
> 
> They all winning cars - maybe my ears are too sensitive or my standards too high
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


i don,t know what to tell you and i don,t know how you listen

sometime people you hear people say more detail and it,s just a little bit more
gain to the tweeters.

you never know what somebody means until you here the same system and
exhange opinion.


----------



## sqnut

Elektra said:


> maybe my ears are too sensitive or my standards too high
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes


----------



## claydo

Maybe if you took the time to learn to make your car match the simple "technical" advantages of the competitors cars, you could dominate for a few years and have a leg to stand on in these silly arguements........


----------



## claydo

And btw.....not to support any claims you've made, but I too have sat in some damn fine cars.....quite a few of them.....and no, I've never heard a car I couldn't nit pick......and yes, in the elite cars I've heard, the nit picking wasn't technical, mostly personal preference.......but to claim my personal preference is correct over the choices of multiple judges, throughout a season of judging, well that would be just a little pompous, maybe a little arrogant.....no? Cars win by concensus, from a pool of trained listeners, and knowing that everyone's hearing varies, sometimes quite a bit and day to day, how is it you feel your single opinion, from a single listen, carries more weight than that.......like I said, a bit arrogant, no?


----------



## High Resolution Audio

sqnut said:


> Compete at a MECA 3X event, get a score of 82+ and then come back and tell us about your theories. Till then, your theories and everything you're supposedly hearing on your resolving system, are just personal opinions that are subject to perception bias.
> 
> Sorry about doing this, but you and Elektra are clogging up the forum with your mumbo jumbo and misinformation. I'm done here.


I already did. But to be fair.....Nick (SkizeR) did the tune. 86.25 

The champion in my class scored 86.7 in 2016

During this competition my right tweeter was 2 DB to hot, my center image was oval shaped and off center, my stage was rainbow shaped, and my sub-woofers were completely turned off.


----------



## Elektra

backousis said:


> i don,t know what to tell you and i don,t know how you listen
> 
> sometime people you hear people say more detail and it,s just a little bit more
> gain to the tweeters.
> 
> you never know what somebody means until you here the same system and
> exhange opinion.




That's very true... I always maintain that you cannot listen to a foreign car in 10-15mins I feel you need 30mins as a min. Once you stop comparing it to your system you can move on and listen to another system....

Also what I like in a system maybe others don't? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut

High Resolution Audio said:


> I already did. But to be fair.....Nick (SkizeR) did the tune. 86.25
> 
> The champion in my class scored 86.7 in 2016
> 
> During this competition my right tweeter was 2 DB to hot, my center image was oval shaped and off center, my stage was rainbow shaped, and my sub-woofers were completely turned off.


How many of the 86 points are down to tuning and how many to your equipment and install?


----------



## High Resolution Audio

sqnut said:


> How many of the 86 points are down to tuning and how many to your equipment and install?


In my opinion, I would guess that about 90% was equipment. 10% tuning.

I'm in the middle of changing my equipment so that it will 98% equipment and 2% tuning.

My theory goes extremely opposite of yours, however, I do agree that price has no direct correlation with sound quality.


----------



## sonikaccord

Elektra said:


> And when I say tonally accurate I mean - a speaker playing a lower THD to another will sound more tonally accurate which you cannot tune to match a lower THD system - if you say you can your talking BS
> 
> So whilst you can get perfect Centre and perfect imagery etc you cannot get a lower THD - simple fact...
> 
> A system tuned the same way with a lower THD player will always sound better - I don't care what you say...
> 
> It's called equipment limits - nobody can tune that better - just like you can't
> make a Class D amp sound exactly the same as a Tube amp...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not necessarily. THD is a small factor in grand scheme of things. I've read through this thread and I see you mention "low distortion" this and "high quality" that of one component only...either speakers or amplifiers. THD does not change how much of the signal you hear...it doesn't "reveal" anything in the music when it's exceptionally low. (<0.1%)

So my questions to you are:
What does THD sound like to you?
What is THD and how does it affect the sound?

Since you brought up tube amps, yes a Class D amplifier can sound the same as a tube amp. Even more accurate in many cases.
Why do you believe they would sound different?


----------



## sonikaccord

High Resolution Audio said:


> In my opinion, I would guess that about 90% was equipment. 10% tuning.
> 
> I'm in the middle of changing my equipment so that it will 98% equipment and 2% tuning.
> 
> My theory goes extremely opposite of yours, however, I do agree that price has no direct correlation with sound quality.


You are saying that you can literally throw equipment in a vehicle and it just works? You are a badass, sir.


----------



## sqnut

High Resolution Audio said:


> In my opinion, I would guess that about 90% was equipment. 10% tuning.
> 
> I'm in the middle of changing my equipment so that it will 98% equipment and 2% tuning.
> 
> My theory goes extremely opposite of yours, however, I do agree that price has no direct correlation with sound quality.


So after the upgrade, if you were to just set a basic network and take it to competition you should score 98% of 86 points, i.e. ~ 84 points? Try it.


----------



## Elektra

sonikaccord said:


> Not necessarily. THD is a small factor in grand scheme of things. I've read through this thread and I see you mention "low distortion" this and "high quality" that of one component only...either speakers or amplifiers. THD does not change how much of the signal you hear...it doesn't "reveal" anything in the music when it's exceptionally low. (<0.1%)
> 
> 
> 
> So my questions to you are:
> 
> What does THD sound like to you?
> 
> What is THD and how does it affect the sound?
> 
> 
> 
> Since you brought up tube amps, yes a Class D amplifier can sound the same as a tube amp. Even more accurate in many cases.
> 
> Why do you believe they would sound different?




Seriously? 

You telling me a tube and a class D amp sounds the same?

Really? 

Out of all the reputable manufacturers out there - home HIFI - how many make a Class D product? 

Maybe 5% of all the top end manufacturers - what does this tell you?

And how many make Class AB A and hybrid... all of them...

There seems to be a trend here... 

If Class D is identical to Class A, AB and Tube then why don't they ditch the rest of the classes for Class D - i mean it will save them a bundle in manufacturing costs compared to how they make Class A etc.... think of all the $100 tubes they can omit in a tube amp... 

Get real...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bnae38

This thread really needs to die... lol


----------



## Elektra

sonikaccord said:


> Not necessarily. THD is a small factor in grand scheme of things. I've read through this thread and I see you mention "low distortion" this and "high quality" that of one component only...either speakers or amplifiers. THD does not change how much of the signal you hear...it doesn't "reveal" anything in the music when it's exceptionally low. (<0.1%)
> 
> 
> 
> So my questions to you are:
> 
> What does THD sound like to you?
> 
> What is THD and how does it affect the sound?
> 
> 
> 
> Since you brought up tube amps, yes a Class D amplifier can sound the same as a tube amp. Even more accurate in many cases.
> 
> Why do you believe they would sound different?




With regards to importance of THD - look at a Tube amp and what THD they generally run... if you consider that a good tube amp runs roughly at 5-10% THD - this is considered a warm lush sound...

It's my understanding that the lower the THD the more "clinical" or "accurate" the sound will be - if you plug a good AB amp next to a good tube amp you will hear the difference - largely based on the difference in THD , components and design

If you can't accept that a tube amp sounds different to a Class D amp - you have problems not limited to your ability to either listen or defective hearing or a combination of both IMHO...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut

Elektra said:


> With regards to importance of THD - look at a Tube amp and what THD they generally run... if you consider that a good tube amp runs roughly at 5-10% THD - this is considered a warm lush sound...
> 
> It's my understanding that the lower the THD the more "clinical" or "accurate" the sound will be - if you plug a good AB amp next to a good tube amp you will hear the difference - largely based on the difference in THD , components and design
> 
> If you can't accept that a tube amp sounds different to a Class D amp - you have problems not limited to your ability to either listen or defective hearing or a combination of both IMHO...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Once again, in a car, the goal is to hear what's on the recording, as it was recorded. Music is not recorded as lush or clinical, its either a loud, compressed and crappy recording, or it's a highly dynamic great recording, or somewhere between. If the sound is warm and lush, or cold and clinical then your tune is out, period.


----------



## Elektra

sqnut said:


> Once again, in a car, the goal is to hear what's on the recording, as it was recorded. Music is not recorded as lush or clinical, its either a loud, compressed and crappy recording, or it's a highly dynamic great recording, or somewhere between. If the sound is warm and lush, or cold and clinical then your tune is out, period.




It's the general perceived character - has nothing to do with accuracy as some people don't want all that accuracy and prefer a Vinyl type sound...

I think we arguing Apple and Oranges here... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## backousis

Elektra said:


> With regards to importance of THD - look at a Tube amp and what THD they generally run... if you consider that a good tube amp runs roughly at 5-10% THD - this is considered a warm lush sound...
> 
> It's my understanding that the lower the THD the more "clinical" or "accurate" the sound will be - if you plug a good AB amp next to a good tube amp you will hear the difference - largely based on the difference in THD , components and design
> 
> If you can't accept that a tube amp sounds different to a Class D amp - you have problems not limited to your ability to either listen or defective hearing or a combination of both IMHO...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


these statement revealed that you don't know how thd sounds.

can you please explain according to your statement why a top of the line class AB like brax sounds warmer that a class d?

it should be the opposite since thd is lower.


----------



## Elektra

backousis said:


> these statement revealed that you don't know how thd sounds.
> 
> 
> 
> can you please explain according to your statement why a top of the line class AB like brax sounds warmer that a class d?
> 
> 
> 
> it should be the opposite since thd is lower.




It doesn't - I would say it sounds more clinical.. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sonikaccord

Elektra said:


> Seriously?
> 
> You telling me a tube and a class D amp sounds the same?
> 
> Really?
> I figured I would get that response. Yes really, that is why I said "can." The topology of the amp should ideally not have ANY factor in the output. An amp is simply a gain block...you are foolish if you think otherwise.
> 
> Out of all the reputable manufacturers out there - home HIFI - how many make a Class D product?
> 
> Maybe 5% of all the top end manufacturers - what does this tell you?
> 
> That the market dictates what people want. Marketing and word of mouth is powerful.
> 
> And how many make Class AB A and hybrid... all of them...
> 
> There seems to be a trend here...
> 
> If Class D is identical to Class A, AB and Tube then why don't they ditch the rest of the classes for Class D - i mean it will save them a bundle in manufacturing costs compared to how they make Class A etc.... think of all the $100 tubes they can omit in a tube amp...
> 
> Get real...
> Seriously, read what I posted. I did NOT say Class D = Tube. That would be ridiculous. Again, the market isn't there for that niche.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Elektra said:


> With regards to importance of THD - look at a Tube amp and what THD they generally run... if you consider that a good tube amp runs roughly at 5-10% THD - this is considered a warm lush sound...
> 
> Objectively, what is that 5-10% "sound" that you are hearing? What is the amp doing to give you that sound? Why is it pleasant when a tube amp gives you high distortion, but you get upset when a solid state amp gives you over 0.1% ?
> 
> It's my understanding that the lower the THD the more "clinical" or "accurate" the sound will be - if you plug a good AB amp next to a good tube amp you will hear the difference - largely based on the difference in THD , components and design
> 
> You should not be able to hear a difference between topologies until you get to the upper or lower extremes. (common audio topologies)
> 
> If you can't accept that a tube amp sounds different to a Class D amp - you have problems not limited to your ability to either listen or defective hearing or a combination of both IMHO...
> 
> You are right. I don't accept that. The job of an amplifier is to make the input signal bigger. If I didn't ask it to color the sound for me, then I don't expect it to add its own little nuances.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Note that you have not answered any of my questions...well you half answered one. A high THD has been known to correlate with a "warm" sound. The questions were,

What does THD sound like to you?
What is THD and how does it affect the sound?
Why do you believe a Class D and a Tube amplifier sound different?

I want your personal experience and knowledge, not what you read somewhere.


----------



## truckerfte

Im just curious....how many of you golden ear guys could tell she difference between uber clean amps vs competent amps installed in an average car being driven down the freeway at 75mph?

All this lab and comp lane talk is great. But all that ends when you turn the key, put it in drive, and actually go somewhere.


----------



## Elektra

sonikaccord said:


> Note that you have not answered any of my questions...well you half answered one. A high THD has been known to correlate with a "warm" sound. The questions were,
> 
> 
> 
> What does THD sound like to you?
> 
> What is THD and how does it affect the sound?
> 
> Why do you believe a Class D and a Tube amplifier sound different?
> 
> 
> 
> I want your personal experience and knowledge, not what you read somewhere.




I am not behind a PC to structure my response in the same way - you should re-read your own post you said a tube and class D do sound the same... 

High THD sounds like noise to me... 100rms at 0.04% compared to 100rms at 5% - the higher THD will sound more confused more strain on your ears - imho it will sound louder.... like a tube amp at 30watts sounds like 200watts on a AB system...

The lower the THD the more accurate/clinical the sound will appear - you could listen to your music louder without straining your ears....

Your more likely to damage your equipment with a high THD system compared to a very low THD system...

Distortion damages your ears faster than a lower THD sound... 

Play heavy metal on a cheap system and play it again on a high quality low THD system... I guarantee you your ears will be ringing on the cheap system and not on a low THD system...

That's what I believe THD will sound like...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sonikaccord

truckerfte said:


> Im just curious....how many of you golden ear guys could tell she difference between uber clean amps vs competent amps installed in an average car being driven down the freeway at 75mph?
> 
> All this lab and comp lane talk is great. But all that ends when you turn the key, put it in drive, and actually go somewhere.


If you are driving and trying to analyze your system at the same time, then you are too far gone in car audio :laugh:

I'd pick a "fun" setup over competition setup any day.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

sonikaccord said:


> You are saying that you can literally throw equipment in a vehicle and it just works? You are a badass, sir.


If one selects the just the right equipment. Does a decent install. With just time alignment and the right crossover settings and levels, system will sound great. With no EQ. 

No need for computers or microphones and software and all that crap.


----------



## Elektra

High Resolution Audio said:


> If one selects the just the right equipment. Does a decent install. With just time alignment and the right crossover settings and levels, system will sound great.
> 
> No need for computers or microphones and software and all that crap.




Agreed... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut

truckerfte said:


> Im just curious....how many of you golden ear guys could tell she difference between uber clean amps vs competent amps installed in an average car being driven down the freeway at 75mph?
> 
> All this lab and comp lane talk is great. But all that ends when you turn the key, put it in drive, and actually go somewhere.


As already mentioned, one doesn't do critical listening while driving, but I'll say this much. A crappy tune at rest, will sound crappier at 75 mph. A good tune at rest, will still allow you to enjoy rocking out at 75 mph and 100 db.


----------



## sqnut

High Resolution Audio said:


> If one selects the just the right equipment. Does a decent install. With just time alignment and the right crossover settings and levels, system will sound great.
> 
> No need for computers or microphones and software and all that crap.


It just means that for all your vivid descriptions, you don't have a ref sound burned into your head and/or you're not listening closely enough.


----------



## MrGreen83

sonikaccord said:


> You are saying that you can literally throw equipment in a vehicle and it just works? You are a badass, sir.







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sonikaccord

sonikaccord said:


> Since you brought up tube amps, yes a Class D amplifier *can* sound the same as a tube amp. Even more accurate in many cases.
> Why do you believe they would sound different?





Elektra said:


> I am not behind a PC to structure my response in the same way - you should re-read your own post you said a tube and class D do sound the same...
> 
> That's understandable. I quoted myself above...
> 
> High THD sounds like noise to me... 100rms at 0.04% compared to 100rms at 5% - the higher THD will sound more confused more strain on your ears - imho it will sound louder.... like a tube amp at 30watts sounds like 200watts on a AB system...
> 
> Tube watts vs SS watts...that's a different thread. So if High THD sounds like noise, that means ohhhh let's say a McIntosh MC275 must sound like pure trash right? What happened to the warm, lush sound?
> 
> The lower the THD the more accurate/clinical the sound will appear - you could listen to your music louder without straining your ears....
> 
> Really? Ok I have a system with 0% THD and a jacked up frequency+phase response and a system with 1% THD and a flat freq+phase response. What you are saying is that the system with 0% can be played louder without being painful?
> 
> Your more likely to damage your equipment with a high THD system compared to a very low THD system...
> Why? How?
> 
> Distortion damages your ears faster than a lower THD sound...
> Again, Why and How?
> 
> Play heavy metal on a cheap system and play it again on a high quality low THD system... I guarantee you your ears will be ringing on the cheap system and not on a low THD system...
> 
> If THD is the only variable, then no...they would not. How much distortion is added to a guitar in metal? That IS harmonic distortion in the truest sense of the word. In that case, all guitar distortion would be painful...and to some people it is
> That's what I believe THD will sound like...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So you seem to see THD as an on/off switch, and any THD is "Noise." The latter is very true.

It looks like you think of THD as something that it isn't...I can tell from this post that you are taking numerous other variables and lumping them into the amplifier's THD category.


----------



## truckerfte

sqnut said:


> As already mentioned, one doesn't do critical listening while driving, but I'll say this much. A crappy tune at rest, will sound crappier at 75 mph. A good tune at rest, will still allow you to enjoy rocking out at 75 mph and 100 db.



Im not talking about crap vs diamonds. I mean competently installed and tuned equipment. 

If one has a need to listen critically, I'm guessing they all have living rooms. And the more hard core have dedicated media rooms. I thought we were about mobile audio. 

The $4500 amp might have an advantage in a lab somewhere, under completely controlled conditions. But that is all mental masturbation. 

In the real world, I think it is meaningless on my 10 hour commute each way to work.


----------



## sqnut

truckerfte said:


> Im not talking about crap vs diamonds. I mean competently installed and tuned equipment.
> 
> If one has a need to listen critically, I'm guessing they all have living rooms. And the more hard core have dedicated media rooms. I thought we were about mobile audio.
> 
> The $4500 amp might have an advantage in a lab somewhere, under completely controlled conditions. But that is all mental masturbation.
> 
> In the real world, I think it is meaningless on my 10 hour commute each way to work.


Competently installed and tuned equipment will allow you to rock out too. I agree with you a $4,500 amp is a waste in a car, even for someone who is competing and winning, that is precisely my point. I'm arguing with people who claim that the $4,500 amp gives them better sound because their hearing is superior.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

sqnut said:


> It just means that for all your vivid descriptions, you don't have a ref sound burned into your head and/or you're not listening closely enough.


What I discovered is that if one picks the right source unit, the SQ is already built in. 

At a certain point in time, in the car audio business, someone thought it a good idea to get rid of the awesome sound in the head units and make one purchase and additional piece of equipment (automatic EQ and T/A) to unleash the SQ. 

Then it expanded to DSP units. 

But if one picks out a SQ head unit from back in the day, no need for all this fancy equipment. 

A little time alignment and boom! Don't touch the EQ.


----------



## MrGreen83

truckerfte said:


> Im not talking about crap vs diamonds. I mean competently installed and tuned equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> If one has a need to listen critically, I'm guessing they all have living rooms. And the more hard core have dedicated media rooms. I thought we were about mobile audio.
> 
> 
> 
> The $4500 amp might have an advantage in a lab somewhere, under completely controlled conditions. But that is all mental masturbation.
> 
> 
> 
> In the real world, I think it is meaningless on my 10 hour commute each way to work.




U drive 10 hours (each way) for work? I have so many questions about this lol. But that's awesome


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

I also wanted to comment on having a high resolution sound system to enjoy only while driving does not make sense. But when you get to your destination and you shut off the car, and you don't want to exit the vehicle because it sounds so good.......that's when it becomes all worth it.

In my humble opinion.


----------



## sonikaccord

High Resolution Audio said:


> If one selects the just the right equipment. Does a decent install. With just time alignment and the right crossover settings and levels, system will sound great. With no EQ.
> 
> No need for computers or microphones and software and all that crap.


I agree with most of this. I consider install as part of the tuning process. It is the physical part of it and lays the foundation of the rest of the tuning.


----------



## Victor_inox

sqnut said:


> Once again, in a car, the goal is to hear what's on the recording, as it was recorded. Music is not recorded as lush or clinical, its either a loud, compressed and crappy recording, or it's a highly dynamic great recording, or somewhere between. If the sound is warm and lush, or cold and clinical then your tune is out, period.


don`t you dare to speak for everyone.

Goal is to enjoy the music not to win some competition.
Your approach to music is tuned out,period.


----------



## Victor_inox

High Resolution Audio said:


> If one selects the just the right equipment. Does a decent install. With just time alignment and the right crossover settings and levels, system will sound great. With no EQ.
> 
> No need for computers or microphones and software and all that crap.



That is heresy on this very forum, without $1000 DSP, ****ty amplifiers and parts express buyout drivers you shouldn`t qualify for membership on this forum.:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## ErinH

High Resolution Audio said:


> In my opinion, I would guess that about 90% was equipment. 10% tuning.
> 
> I'm in the middle of changing my equipment so that it will 98% equipment and 2% tuning.
> 
> My theory goes extremely opposite of yours, however, I do agree that price has no direct correlation with sound quality.





High Resolution Audio said:


> If one selects the just the right equipment. Does a decent install. With just time alignment and the right crossover settings and levels, system will sound great. With no EQ.
> 
> No need for computers or microphones and software and all that crap.


... says the guy with the center seat listening position in his truck. 

Gerald, the "no eq" you mention may be achievable from the center seat (btw, do you drive from that spot?) but once you shift to the right or left of the cabin like most of us have to do you're going to find that L/R eq is as necessary as time alignment/level matching. Once you shift over to the side like the rest of us do, your percentages above will change. And I can guarantee you'll never get your car to sound the same from the standard driver's seat position as it does from your center seat position. It's just not possible... and you won't even get close to it without L/R eq (no matter how much or how little). That's just the nature of the car.

I do also find it interesting that you think EQ is the bad thing and not time alignment, when you consider time affects phase and phase is dominant in one of the most critical passbands we hear. When I demo cars I usually don't critique tonality too much but one of the things that often stands out to me is timing/phase inconsistencies. I know I'm not the only person like this.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

ErinH said:


> ... says the guy with the center seat listening position in his truck.
> 
> Gerald, the "no eq" you mention may be achievable from the center seat (btw, do you drive from that spot?) but once you shift to the right or left of the cabin like most of us have to do you're going to find that L/R eq is as necessary as time alignment/level matching. Once you shift over to the side like the rest of us do, your percentages above will change. And I can guarantee you'll never get your car to sound the same from the standard driver's seat position as it does from your center seat position. It's just not possible... and you won't even get close to it without L/R eq (no matter how much or how little). That's just the nature of the car.
> 
> I do also find it interesting that you think EQ is the bad thing and not time alignment, when you consider time affects phase and phase is dominant in one of the most critical passbands we hear. When I demo cars I usually don't critique tonality too much but one of the things that often stands out to me is timing/phase inconsistencies. I know I'm not the only person like this.


With this new old school head unit, changing from center seat to drivers seat requires time alignment correction and two or three (i forgot which) clicks of the balance to the right and Viola! Done!


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

High Resolution Audio said:


> With this new old school head unit, changing from center seat to drivers seat requires time alignment correction and two or three (i forgot which) clicks of the balance to the right and Viola! Done!


Run rta sweeps for left vs right from the drivers seat. I guarantee the difference between the two will be a squiggly mess. The last couple months I had my Ram I got the left and right side playing as close to identical as possible with help from the rta. Then used it to smooth out tonality issues I couldn't put my finger on. What a difference in coherency! And setting time alignment was a lot more black and white with the left and right playing nearly the same. Any yahoo can get a good sounding car system with the listening position in the middle. It takes a lot more talent to get it correct from the drivers seat.


----------



## ErinH

High Resolution Audio said:


> With this new old school head unit, changing from center seat to drivers seat requires time alignment correction and two or three (i forgot which) clicks of the balance to the right and Viola! Done!



If you don't hear the difference between driver's seat and center seat with nothing more than simple time delay and level matching then something is wrong.

The fact is no matter what you do, the differences between the side of the car and the center of the car are going to be different in regards to frequency response. Time and levels may shift the image to a place you deem appropriate but that will not 'fix' the landscape of the sound, nor the tonality differences. I can guarantee you that. The two positions/settings you've described may sound similar but they won't sound the same. This goes for even those running center channel based, surround sound systems. It's just the nature of the car, how the speakers load and how the car acts as a waveguide (relative to your position).

*Edited


----------



## sqnut

Victor_inox said:


> don`t you dare to speak for everyone.
> 
> Goal is to enjoy the music not to win some competition.
> Your approach to music is tuned out,period.





Victor_inox said:


> That is heresy on this very forum, without $1000 DSP, ****ty amplifiers and parts express buyout drivers you shouldn`t qualify for membership on this forum.:laugh::laugh::laugh:


About time *you* realize this is a car audio forum *and* that reproducing good sound in a car is *very* different to reproducing it in a normal room. The car is a highly reverbrant sardine can where you're probably getting 10% direct sound and 90% is early reflections. This, vs a much less reverbrant, 30'x20'x8' living room, where you're getting 30% direct sound, 30% early reflections and 30% late reflections. The two are chalk and cheese and the rules are *totally* different.

In a car a dsp is the single most important equipment, if you can't wrap your head around that :shrug:

P.S. And yes I'd rather pay $300 more for a dsp that gives me +/- 0.1 db on the eq and +/- 0.01 ms on the TA instead of paying $ 2K extra for an amp that gives 0.001% THD vs the cheaper amp that does 0.01%


----------



## ChrisB

sqnut said:


> Too much of reading the internet but 0 relevant knowledge. Technically accurate includes tonality. You're coming of reading 100's of noob posts that say 'I heard the winning cars SQ tune and it was meh and seemed lacking'. This happens due to two reasons:
> 
> *1. The competitor decided to give an audition with a **** tune, just for kicks.*
> 
> 2. The noob can't hear the difference between his tune and good sound.
> 
> 
> 
> The points are for all aspects of the experience, if only 1/3 matter to you, if you only care about tonality and less about imaging and stability of image, then you're not the real audiophile you're trying to project yourself as. Oh, and here's a little secret, better imaging=better tonality. Only a noob would believe that you can get 80/100 on tonality and 10/100 on imaging.
> 
> 
> 
> See the first point.
> 
> 
> 
> Stop saying that, you sound like the total opposite of who you want to project yourself as. You can't be technically accurate with a **** tune, unless you're competing in an RTA competition.
> 
> I think I've said enough, as beyond this you were just repeating yourself.


I am friends with a former IASCA competitor and I can tell you that demoing with the **** tune happened more times than you would think. It was to keep others from trying to imitate what he did.  

I need to catch up with him and see what he thinks about modern day processors with the ability to store multiple tunes versus having an equalizer for each tune like he did back in the day.


----------



## ChrisB

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Run rta sweeps for left vs right from the drivers seat. I guarantee the difference between the two will be a squiggly mess. The last couple months I had my Ram I got the left and right side playing as close to identical as possible with help from the rta. Then used it to smooth out tonality issues I couldn't put my finger on. What a difference in coherency! And setting time alignment was a lot more black and white with the left and right playing nearly the same. Any yahoo can get a good sounding car system with the listening position in the middle. It takes a lot more talent to get it correct from the drivers seat.


I can still pick an assortment of progressive rock tracks mastered with spatial enhancement that will make a properly time aligned system sound like poop. I do it just to piss the audiophiles off, lol. :laugh:

Think of some of the more obscure stuff from Dream Theater and Rush to get an idea of what I am talking about...


----------



## captainobvious

rton20s said:


>



I like this post.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

ChrisB said:


> I can still pick an assortment of progressive rock tracks mastered with spatial enhancement that will make a properly time aligned system sound like poop. I do it just to piss the audiophiles off, lol. :laugh:
> 
> Think of some of the more obscure stuff from Dream Theater and Rush to get an idea of what I am talking about...


Dream Theater is great at making a system fall flat on its face. It will change your life for better or worse:laugh:As for the **** tune, I'd switch to it if the person wanting a demo was a douche canoe. That's if I competed of course.


----------



## captainobvious

High Resolution Audio said:


> In my opinion, I would guess that about 90% was equipment. 10% tuning.
> 
> I'm in the middle of changing my equipment so that it will 98% equipment and 2% tuning.
> 
> My theory goes extremely opposite of yours, however, I do agree that price has no direct correlation with sound quality.




I'd disagree there.

If that were the case, everyone could simply slap in the most expensive/highest performing equipment and expect to be in the top 10% of competitors. An easy way to see just how much impact this has is to set your dsp to a tune that has a total default of settings and compare it to the actual tune. There is a vast difference. 



Assuming equipment isn't broken, the tune ABSOLUTELY makes the biggest difference in the sound of the system. The install does as well, but not nearly to the level of the tuning. The speakers are the highest distortion device in the chain and would be the 3rd biggest priority in my opinion. 

Amplifiers are nearly the last thing to worry about.


----------



## sqnut

ChrisB said:


> I am friends with a former IASCA competitor and I can tell you that demoing with the **** tune happened more times than you would think. It was to keep others from trying to imitate what he did.
> 
> I need to catch up with him and see what he thinks about modern day processors with the ability to store multiple tunes versus having an equalizer for each tune like he did back in the day.


lol....I can understand how a competitor would not want to share his actual tune with another who is snapping at his heels, but someone 10 points behind, or even a total noob, I would give them the actual tune because hearing good sound and being able to reproduce it are two totally different things. I mean, just going by opinions people have in this thread, the noob would probably walk away thinking, it must be the panny bottlehead and the Brax amps etc. Good luck reproducing the tune you just heard.


----------



## captainobvious

On a side note (and certainly not singling anyone out) I do find it interesting though that the people who tend to dismiss the value of DSP and tuning are usually also the ones who simply don't understand tuning and how to correct response in the vehicle. 

I couldn't agree more with Erin and sqnut on the value and importance of DSP in the automotive environment. Any system not using processing in a vehicle could certainly be made to be even better with the inclusion of it. It is undoubtedly the most important piece to making a great sounding car audio system.


----------



## captainobvious

sqnut said:


> lol....I can understand how a competitor would not want to share his actual tune with another who is snapping at his heels, but someone 10 points behind, or even a total noob, I would give them the actual tune because hearing good sound and being able to reproduce it are two totally different things. I mean, just going by opinions people have in this thread, the noob would probably walk away thinking, it must be the panny bottlehead and the Brax amps etc. Good luck reproducing the tune you just heard.




I've never understood this. Giving someone a demo with a "crap tune" purposely to avoid them getting some leg up advantage over you or figuring out what you've done. Unless you have the same car with the same equipment and install...it's just pointless. No two systems are typically the same. Let alone people ability to identify the actual differences and be able to simulate them.


----------



## captainobvious

High Resolution Audio said:


> I listened to the Sony in Mike Young's Beetle. His system had the cleanest bass I have heard yet to date. Brax drivers, and Mosconi Amps.



Mike has a Brax MX4 in the Beetle as well, fyi 

I love Mike's car, but I actually think one of the few areas for improvement is in the midbass/subbass. He's been doing a great job for the short amount of time he has been competing- and is a great guy to boot. Excited to see what he comes up with for this season.


----------



## ErinH

The truth is: The "**** tune" idea is more prominent on the forums with people who don't compete than it is in the actual competition realm.


----------



## Victor_inox

captainobvious said:


> On a side note (and certainly not singling anyone out) I do find it interesting though that the people who tend to dismiss the value of DSP and tuning are usually also the ones who simply don't understand tuning and how to correct response in the vehicle.


 Why is people obsessed with one tech always say that opposite side "just don`t get it"?


----------



## Elektra

captainobvious said:


> I'd disagree there.
> 
> If that were the case, everyone could simply slap in the most expensive/highest performing equipment and expect to be in the top 10% of competitors. An easy way to see just how much impact this has is to set your dsp to a tune that has a total default of settings and compare it to the actual tune. There is a vast difference.
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming equipment isn't broken, the tune ABSOLUTELY makes the biggest difference in the sound of the system. The install does as well, but not nearly to the level of the tuning. The speakers are the highest distortion device in the chain and would be the 3rd biggest priority in my opinion.
> 
> Amplifiers are nearly the last thing to worry about.




Yes... I would agree with you there - but I believe a system comprises of a 33 and 1/3 scenario - like you can't have a F1 HU and a kenwood amp and Ultima speakers? 

You need to have it all balanced... you can get very good results with lower equipment - no doubting that...

But I feel that a matched system will yield just that little bit better results across the frequency range.. 

Which makes an audible difference to the net result. 

Companies don't spend millions developing snake oil - it's far easier for Brax to take a kenwood board slap a Brax heat sink and sell it for 10 times more... 

Instead they don't do that - they spend countless hours measuring each part matching every component to painstaking precision - for what for a couple of guys on a forum to say a Kenwood mass produced POS that you can buy at a flea market for $50 is no different....

Sorry that is BS...

And if anyone here believes an amp is an amp irrespective of price and components used or design is just fooling themselves... 

The Brax/Audiowave/Bewith etc are products designed for a exclusive clientele that won't complain about the price tag and are not interested in dbl blind tests and all that BS - which probably why they don't come onto these forums to defend there product to people who have already made up there minds...

You can't change the world - but you can offer a exceptional product to clientele who do want the best...

Accept that everyone's ear is slightly different due to life... where you can't hear a difference but another can doesn't mean it's not there - your word is not the gospel and your not a audio profit therefore we all live and learn to enjoy things a little differently 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut

captainobvious said:


> I've never understood this. Giving someone a demo with a "crap tune" purposely to avoid them getting some leg up advantage over you or figuring out what you've done. Unless you have the same car with the same equipment and install...it's just pointless. No two systems are typically the same. Let alone people ability to identify the actual differences and be able to simulate them.


I agree 100% and another unpleasant side effect is, that the guys walk away after the demo thinking 'that was meh', and post 'sq tunes are meh, mine is better', on car audio forums.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

captainobvious said:


> I've never understood this. Giving someone a demo with a "crap tune" purposely to avoid them getting some leg up advantage over you or figuring out what you've done. Unless you have the same car with the same equipment and install...it's just pointless. No two systems are typically the same. Let alone people ability to identify the actual differences and be able to simulate them.


If you really don't like someone and just want to screw with them I can see the **** tune being useful. I can count on one hand the number of people I've met in this hobby in person that I didn't particularly care for but even then if we were in a competition setting my ego probably wouldn't let me switch to a bad tune. I guess it just depends on the situation. I've heard stories about people trolling the sq lanes just to start trouble, but that's just hearsay.


----------



## sqnut

Elektra said:


> ... where you can't hear a difference but another can doesn't mean it's not there - your word is not the gospel and your not a audio profit therefore we all live and learn to enjoy things a little differently
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Did you try the Harmon How to Listen link I posted? If the sum total of your defense to your myriad theories, is that your hearing is better than all of us, then the test should be a cinch for you. Otherwise your central defense is weak and I call BS. You don't have the sound and that's why you don't know how to get there .


----------



## Elektra

sqnut said:


> Did you try the Harmon How to Listen link I posted? If the sum total of your defense to your myriad theories, is that your hearing is better than all of us, then the test should be a cinch for you. Otherwise your central defense is weak and I call BS. You don't have the sound and that's why you don't know how to get there .




No I didn't... not going to try it on a IPhone - but I am on holiday from tomorrow so maybe I'll give it a try for ****s and giggles 

What I love about this forum is that people presume to hear for you and anything you say that goes against There grain of salt is just plain BS...

Gotta love it! So when I can hear a significant enough difference and others around me I must remind myself it's all BS....

Wow... now that's the spirit of DIY! 

I think I am going to sell my 3 MX amps and TH2 and Sony cancel the order of the DSP PRO MK2 and get rid of my Kit7's and just buy myself entry of everything and tell myself it's great I have all this cash in my account as I saved a bundle on snake oil and tell myself it sounds the same...

What a load of BS...

I think just be happy with your entry equipment as I am sure happy with mine - I may not be a hotshot tuner but I do ok for my own pleasure...

Isn't that what matters? I mean am I spending $20k for you to be happy or me? 

I would really love to hear your setup - by god it must be spectacular as I thought my car was easy top 5 here before I got the MX amps and Sony and DSP PRO with limited tuning so your car must annihilate mine as I am just DIY enthusiast not a professional.... 

Please share your system layout...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox

Elektra said:


> No I didn't... not going to try it on a IPhone - but I am on holiday from tomorrow so maybe I'll give it a try for ****s and giggles
> 
> What I love about this forum is that people presume to hear for you and anything you say that goes against There grain of salt is just plain BS...
> 
> Gotta love it! So when I can hear a significant enough difference and others around me I must remind myself it's all BS....
> 
> Wow... now that's the spirit of DIY!
> 
> I think I am going to sell my 3 MX amps and TH2 and Sony cancel the order of the DSP PRO MK2 and get rid of my Kit7's and just buy myself entry of everything and tell myself it's great I have all this cash in my account as I saved a bundle on snake oil and tell myself it sounds the same...
> 
> What a load of BS...
> 
> I think just be happy with your entry equipment as I am sure happy with mine - I may not be a hotshot tuner but I do ok for my own pleasure...
> 
> Isn't that what matters? I mean am I spending $20k for you to be happy or me?
> 
> I would really love to hear your setup - by god it must be spectacular as I thought my car was easy top 5 here before I got the MX amps and Sony and DSP PRO with limited tuning so your car must annihilate mine as I am just DIY enthusiast not a professional....
> 
> Please share your system layout...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Dude, Just breathe. enjoy your music and let them be.


----------



## Elektra

Victor_inox said:


> Dude, Just breathe. enjoy your music and let them be.




Your onto something.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut

Elektra said:


> I mean am I spending $20k for you to be happy or me?


If spending 20K is your thing, more power to you. Don't tell me you have better sound because you spent more or because you hear better. That is BS.





Elektra said:


> Please share your system layout...



umm its in my sig...


----------



## Elektra

sqnut said:


> If spending 20K is your thing, more power to you. Don't tell me you have better sound because you spent more or because you hear better. That is BS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> umm its in my sig...




So for the record your system in your sig. will perform exactly if not better than mine - not withstanding that if I sold everything in your sig. I won't be able to purchase any of my 3 amps? Forget the speakers, cabling, HU, source? 

Is that your firm stand point? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut

Elektra said:


> So for the record your system in your sig. will perform exactly if not better than mine - not withstanding that if I sold everything in your sig. I won't be able to purchase any of my 3 amps? Forget the speakers, cabling, HU, source?
> 
> Is that your firm stand point?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Given your tuning skills, probably yes. I really am done with you, say what you will.


----------



## ChrisB

Hillbilly SQ said:


> If you really don't like someone and just want to screw with them I can see the **** tune being useful. I can count on one hand the number of people I've met in this hobby in person that I didn't particularly care for but even then if we were in a competition setting my ego probably wouldn't let me switch to a bad tune. I guess it just depends on the situation. I've heard stories about people trolling the sq lanes just to start trouble, but that's just hearsay.


This is one of my friends that we are talking about here. We were trolling before trolling was even a thing because we liked to f*ck with other people.


----------



## captainobvious

Elektra said:


> Yes... I would agree with you there - but I believe a system comprises of a 33 and 1/3 scenario - like you can't have a F1 HU and a kenwood amp and Ultima speakers?
> 
> You need to have it all balanced... you can get very good results with lower equipment - no doubting that...
> 
> But I feel that a matched system will yield just that little bit better results across the frequency range..
> 
> Which makes an audible difference to the net result.
> 
> Companies don't spend millions developing snake oil - it's far easier for Brax to take a kenwood board slap a Brax heat sink and sell it for 10 times more...
> 
> Instead they don't do that - they spend countless hours measuring each part matching every component to painstaking precision - for what for a couple of guys on a forum to say a Kenwood mass produced POS that you can buy at a flea market for $50 is no different....
> 
> Sorry that is BS...
> 
> And if anyone here believes an amp is an amp irrespective of price and components used or design is just fooling themselves...
> 
> The Brax/Audiowave/Bewith etc are products designed for a exclusive clientele that won't complain about the price tag and are not interested in dbl blind tests and all that BS - which probably why they don't come onto these forums to defend there product to people who have already made up there minds...
> 
> You can't change the world - but you can offer a exceptional product to clientele who do want the best...
> 
> Accept that everyone's ear is slightly different due to life... where you can't hear a difference but another can doesn't mean it's not there - your word is not the gospel and your not a audio profit therefore we all live and learn to enjoy things a little differently
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I have and do run Brax amplifiers myself as well. But I also know from experience and testing that the amplifier is extremely low on the totem pole of important features to an excellent sounding car audio system. I tend to agree with Erins previous post about buying whatever amp or product gives you the most pleasure from your experience in the car, whatever that product may be. We don't all need to buy an item for the same reasons and yes we hear things differently.


----------



## jtaudioacc

bnae38 said:


> This thread really needs to die... lol


and about 95% deleted. lol

sorry, i just kept it going.


----------



## Elektra

sqnut said:


> Given your tuning skills, probably yes. I really am done with you, say what you will.




"Probably"? What's that after 100's of posts it's only "probably" your so **** sure 1 post ago...

Hang on your a tuning god - apparently - all amps and equipment sounds the same.... please I am easy meat...

I'll come with my crap 4x280rms and 500x2 amps no match to your mighty 2000's circa 4x50 mega amp... I mean I am sure your caps are still fresh and your DLS - sorry Genesis amp are still well within spec 16 years later - I mean what's 18dbs SNR and 1000 times better THD got anything to do with how it sounds 

And I will use my Crap waste of money DSP PRO 2 with 10 outputs digital in and out and 32bit DAC 32/96bitrate and 192/32 bitrate capable DSP with multitude more tuning features than your 24/48bitrate Bit10D - I surrender

I'll have to rethink my Kit 7 - I mean no way it can sound as good as your Polk and scan tweeter

Let's forget about my 100% silver AQ RCA cables - let's just throw them away - snake oil

And the Sony has nothing on the P80... i mean DSD means nothing....

Do me a favor stop presuming your better than me - we have never met. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rton20s




----------



## claydo




----------



## nineball76

Holy crap on a cracker, looks like I missed out on a great thread.


----------



## Babs




----------



## Babs

High Resolution Audio said:


> I listened to the Sony in Mike Young's Beetle. His system had the cleanest bass I have heard yet to date. Brax drivers, and Mosconi Amps.


Sinfoni drivers, Brax amps, if memory serves correctly.. If it's BigMike's white beetle, agreed.. Sounded spectacular.


----------



## BlackHHR

Babs said:


> Sinfoni drivers, Brax amps, if memory serves correctly.. If it's BigMike's white beetle, agreed.. Sounded spectacular.


Mike has the mosconi class A on his Brax 1.1 Tweeters. The MX4 is on the Brax 3.1 mids and 6.1 mid voofers.

Has has another mosconi on the Brax 10.1 sub. 

The little Beetle does sound very good.


----------



## grinkeeper

Hey lets bring things back to the first post here:

*Who still makes a good SQ amp?*


----------



## Elektra

BlackHHR said:


> Mike has the mosconi class A on his Brax 1.1 Tweeters. The MX4 is on the Brax 3.1 mids and 6.1 mid voofers.
> 
> 
> 
> Has has another mosconi on the Brax 10.1 sub.
> 
> 
> 
> The little Beetle does sound very good.




Have you not been following this thread? Throw away those nasty Mosconi Class A and MX4 amps - total waste of money... 

Can we suggest a nice lightning Audio or Kenwood amp instead? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sonikaccord

grinkeeper said:


> Hey lets bring things back to the first post here:
> 
> *Who still makes a good SQ amp?*


x2.

Can we get a baseline definition of what an "SQ" amp is and what does it do differently from any other similarly rated amp?


----------



## Babs

BlackHHR said:


> Mike has the mosconi class A on his Brax 1.1 Tweeters. The MX4 is on the Brax 3.1 mids and 6.1 mid voofers.
> 
> Has has another mosconi on the Brax 10.1 sub.
> 
> The little Beetle does sound very good.


I stand corrected.. I think I had sonfini drivers associated in error because of the metal finish on the "pods".


----------



## grinkeeper

sonikaccord said:


> x2.
> 
> Can we get a baseline definition of what an "SQ" amp is and what does it do differently from any other similarly rated amp?


X3

Lets get back to what amps these days can be used in a system with the goals of SOUND QUALITY vs SOUND PRESSURE


----------



## Babs

My take on it.. I've heard stellar and I've heard mediocre but good efforts. The amps used, were important in that they provided good clean quiet power, but the real deal that made or broke the cars I've heard, very simply was the tune first, installation second. Mike's car we speak of above has a known deficiency in width because of the A-pillar mounted pods which are narrower than the car could be for width, however, he's got that thing tuned to a T and makes good use of what he has for speaker placement. Likewise, I've heard cars with great placement and great potential that sounded like poo because of a deficient tune, mine included. Points being, the tune, ALL of it from TA, phase, EQ, crossovers.. Every parameter that DSP can do, is important in getting all drivers singing together for a 1-seat tune. I've heard JL XDv2's in a well tuned car blow my doors off for an outrageously good sound. I've heard Rockfords blow my doors off for SQ when it's dialed in and happy. Now, I'm also of the opinion amps do definitely sound different.. I've not heard class-D el-cheapo clone amps sound that good simply because they're not that clean and don't have control. But a guy does not have to spend $10k for amps to sound world class.


----------



## rton20s




----------



## High Resolution Audio

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Run rta sweeps for left vs right from the drivers seat. I guarantee the difference between the two will be a squiggly mess. The last couple months I had my Ram I got the left and right side playing as close to identical as possible with help from the rta. Then used it to smooth out tonality issues I couldn't put my finger on. What a difference in coherency! And setting time alignment was a lot more black and white with the left and right playing nearly the same. Any yahoo can get a good sounding car system with the listening position in the middle. It takes a lot more talent to get it correct from the drivers seat.


In my opinion, having a middle seat and setting the EQ symmetrical allows one to hear what a tuned system is suppose to sound like. Moving to the drivers seat and adjusting time alignment and balance allows for a sound system that is very close to nearly identical. Probably because of the unique install of this particular vehicle. You probably are right about the responses being different. However, what I am saying is with critical listening, they don't appear to be really that far off.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

grinkeeper said:


> X3
> 
> Lets get back to what amps these days can be used in a system with the goals of SOUND QUALITY vs SOUND PRESSURE


In my opinion, a high bias amp will outperform one with lower bias. Because in my opinion an amp that is already drawing several amps of power can convert that power instantaneously. 

Whereas, in my opinion, an amp that is idling low takes time to ramp up. The little bit of time ( a few milliseconds ) it takes to ramp up information is lost. 

In my opinion, human hearing is more sensitive than any piece of electronics manufactured today. I believe that some people can hear those little minute details that are missing. 

So to answer your question any high bias amplifier. Drawback is that it is inefficient.


----------



## ChrisB

I'd like to give those SounDigital GaN amplifiers a try because I am all about technology!


----------



## High Resolution Audio

ErinH said:


> If you don't hear the difference between driver's seat and center seat with nothing more than simple time delay and level matching then something is wrong.
> 
> The fact is no matter what you do, the differences between the side of the car and the center of the car are going to be different in regards to frequency response. Time and levels may shift the image to a place you deem appropriate but that will not 'fix' the landscape of the sound, nor the tonality differences. I can guarantee you that. The two positions/settings you've described may sound similar but they won't sound the same. This goes for even those running center channel based, surround sound systems. It's just the nature of the car, how the speakers load and how the car acts as a waveguide (relative to your position).
> 
> *Edited


I believe you 100%. They do not sound the same, but very,very similar. I have not yet installed the new head unit, but I have temporarily tested it out with the new IASCA CD. It would be my opinion that it would be nearly impossible to get a sound that sounds exactly the same when shifting from center seat to either left hand or right hand driver. But at this point, with my testing, it is so close, that I am quite happy.

Making the right hand tower symmetrical in location to the left hand tower by moving it about 2 3/4" over, helped dramatically to "even out" the L/R EQ balance in the cab.

But it does image like this photo shows ( looking down from space ) and the sound stage from left to right is now ruler flat instead of rainbow arched.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

ChrisB said:


> I'd like to give those SounDigital GaN amplifiers a try because I am all about technology!


My interest in those amps are piqued, for sure. Some people have given them rave reviews.


----------



## jriggs

Elektra said:


> "Probably"? What's that after 100's of posts it's only "probably" your so **** sure 1 post ago...
> 
> Hang on your a tuning god - apparently - all amps and equipment sounds the same.... please I am easy meat...
> 
> I'll come with my crap 4x280rms and 500x2 amps no match to your mighty 2000's circa 4x50 mega amp... I mean I am sure your caps are still fresh and your DLS - sorry Genesis amp are still well within spec 16 years later - I mean what's 18dbs SNR and 1000 times better THD got anything to do with how it sounds
> 
> And I will use my Crap waste of money DSP PRO 2 with 10 outputs digital in and out and 32bit DAC 32/96bitrate and 192/32 bitrate capable DSP with multitude more tuning features than your 24/48bitrate Bit10D - I surrender
> 
> I'll have to rethink my Kit 7 - I mean no way it can sound as good as your Polk and scan tweeter
> 
> Let's forget about my 100% silver AQ RCA cables - let's just throw them away - snake oil
> 
> And the Sony has nothing on the P80... i mean DSD means nothing....
> 
> Do me a favor stop presuming your better than me - we have never met.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Does your bragging stem from insecurities or are you trying to impress the DIYMA community? Maybe a bit of both? I mean really, how many times do you have to list all of your ultra expensive gear and accessories? IMO, your the one who believes himself superior.


----------



## lizardking

The problem is a person can't prove the amp makes a difference. It's been tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried......and tried. However, tuning can be proven to make a difference.....over and over and over and over and.......over again.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

jriggs said:


> Does your bragging stem from insecurities or are you trying to impress the DIYMA community? Maybe a bit of both? I mean really, how many times do you have to list all of your ultra expensive gear and accessories? IMO, your the one who believes himself superior.


I think that both parties arguing have valid points. 

Sqnut reached out to me and gave me guidance when first learning how to tune. In my opinion, He is right about having a 3-4K system with a great tuner sounding better than a more expensive system not tuned. Because $$ spent does not necessarily equate to sound quality.

However, In My Opinion, Elektra has valid points as well. In my opinion, if one selects the right components, (not necessarily the most expensive), less tuning is needed to get a system to sound good.

Sqnut just pushed Elektras buttons. He was inferring that all the extra money spent on that high quality gear was a waste and unnecessary. 

In my opinion, I would rather side with Elektra. Sqnut basically told me I was full of **** with my opinions and told me to enter my vehicle in a competition and when I scored over 82 points then I have a right to express my opinion. 

Well in my very first MECA competition, months ago, I scored and 86.25.......so maybe some of Elektra and my opinions are valid?

We both have the same view on a lot of points.


----------



## sonikaccord

ChrisB said:


> I'd like to give those SounDigital GaN amplifiers a try because I am all about technology!


Why We'll Soon Be Living In A Class D World - Audiophile Review
  

I can't wait till "full" digital amps come into play. Straight from the file to PWM with no analog conversion in between.


----------



## sonikaccord

High Resolution Audio said:


> In my opinion, a high bias amp will outperform one with lower bias. Because in my opinion an amp that is already drawing several amps of power can convert that power instantaneously.
> 
> Whereas, in my opinion, an amp that is idling low takes time to ramp up. The little bit of time ( a few milliseconds ) it takes to ramp up information is lost.
> 
> In my opinion, human hearing is more sensitive than any piece of electronics manufactured today. I believe that some people can hear those little minute details that are missing.
> 
> So to answer your question any high bias amplifier. Drawback is that it is inefficient.


Essentially a high slew rate. I don't believe the amount of biasing matters past a certain point. 20 kHz isn't that fast of a signal to reproduce...it requires a rate of about 6.3 V/usec. Most decent amps can do that no problem.

Human hearing is not that sensitive, imo. When you add in the fact that the brain processes sound differently in everybody, it's a recipe for disaster. Then again...sensitive hearing may be learned with practice.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

sonikaccord said:


> Why We'll Soon Be Living In A Class D World - Audiophile Review
> 
> 
> I can't wait till "full" digital amps come into play. Straight from the file to PWM with no analog conversion in between.


Back in the 1990's, with regards to marine radios, Standard came out with a unit that was called the HORIZON TITAN. It used Gallium Arsenide Field Effect Transistors. GaAsFET for short. 

It sounds as if the technology in these GaN amps are very similar. Here is an interesting link:

How gallium arsenide could outcompete silicon - Futurity


----------



## High Resolution Audio

sonikaccord said:


> Essentially a high slew rate. I don't believe the amount of biasing matters past a certain point. 20 kHz isn't that fast of a signal to reproduce...it requires a rate of about 6.3 V/usec. Most decent amps can do that no problem.
> 
> Human hearing is not that sensitive, imo. When you add in the fact that the brain processes sound differently in everybody, it's a recipe for disaster. Then again...sensitive hearing may be learned with practice.


I do not understand slew rate. I googled it and it was all mumbo jumbo to me.

However, as I stated several times in earlier posts, when switching from AB amps to A on the tweeters, the attack seemed smoother on cymbal hits and the decay lasted twice as long before dissipating. When switching back to AB amp, it was like some of the sound was cut off on the attack and the decay faded twice as fast. ( part of the sound was missing ) My helper who is 22 years old heard the exact same thing. Maybe we both are hearing things, but I doubt it. P.S. I cant even hear 20K, lol


----------



## Babs

ChrisB said:


> I'd like to give those SounDigital GaN amplifiers a try because I am all about technology!



Same here


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Elektra

jriggs said:


> Does your bragging stem from insecurities or are you trying to impress the DIYMA community? Maybe a bit of both? I mean really, how many times do you have to list all of your ultra expensive gear and accessories? IMO, your the one who believes himself superior.




Not at all - I have no insecurities - I just hate it when someone presumes and assumes what another person can or can't do from a arm chair 10000 miles away...

That just annoys me - we all here to share opinions and express thoughts it's the DIY way but don't tell me you can tune better than me and your $3000 system will beat my system without knowing me personally. I was rather insulted I spent a lot of cash and time building my setup and just get told by someone who runs nearly 20 year old equipment that his will beat mine was just insulting without any basis of his accusations 

That's beyond arrogance - then tell me "Possibly" because your now not sure after 250+ posts which he contributed a good 20-30% of them himself...

Tell me how he is the best tuner and I am full of **** basically... 

If I lived closer I would have said let's see... but I don't 

Any rate it's never been a dick measuring thread unfortunately we are talking $5000 brax amp not some $50 Walmart special. So some of us do have setups upwards of $30k....




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut

Elektra said:


> That's beyond arrogance - then tell me "Possibly" because your now not sure after 250+ posts which he contributed a good 20-30% of them himself...


Along with all your other issues, you're also poor at reading sarcasm, that's where the 'possibly' came from. Anyhow.

Look, by your own admission you got your ass wiped by 10 points (which btw is HUGE gap) when you competed. How did your brain process that? "Meh, the car that won sucked and mine was better". Imagine what would happen if my humble $3K scored better than your $20K setup, as judged by a competent person? Your brain would explode before it admitted that was even possible.

I may not like you, I may think you're ignorant, arrogant and a braggart, but I wouldn't want to be the cause of your demise, I'm not a murderer:laugh:


----------



## Elektra

sqnut said:


> Along with all your other issues, you're also poor at reading sarcasm, that's where the 'possibly' came from. Anyhow.
> 
> 
> 
> Look, by your own admission you got your ass wiped by 10 points (which btw is HUGE gap) when you competed. How did your brain process that? "Meh, the car that won sucked and mine was better". Imagine what would happen if my humble $3K scored better than your $20K setup, as judged by a competent person? Your brain would explode before it admitted that was even possible.
> 
> 
> 
> I may not like you, I may think you're ignorant, arrogant and a braggart, but I wouldn't want to be the cause of your demise, I'm not a murderer:laugh:




Let's agree to disagree... it's a discussion let's not forget that...

Nobody wants anyone dead...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## seafish

lizardking said:


> The problem is a person can't prove the amp makes a difference. It's been tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried......and tried. However, tuning can be proven to make a difference.....over and over and over and over and.......over again.


This is actually one of the most valid and verifiable points made in this thread.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

seafish said:


> This is actually one of the most valid and verifiable points made in this thread.


I agree with this ^^^^^^^wholeheartedly. It is hard to prove for sure.


----------



## jriggs

Elektra said:


> Not at all - I have no insecurities - I just hate it when someone presumes and assumes what another person can or can't do from a arm chair 10000 miles away...
> 
> That just annoys me - we all here to share opinions and express thoughts it's the DIY way but don't tell me you can tune better than me and your $3000 system will beat my system without knowing me personally. I was rather insulted I spent a lot of cash and time building my setup and just get told by someone who runs nearly 20 year old equipment that his will beat mine was just insulting without any basis of his accusations
> 
> That's beyond arrogance - then tell me "Possibly" because your now not sure after 250+ posts which he contributed a good 20-30% of them himself...
> 
> Tell me how he is the best tuner and I am full of **** basically...
> 
> If I lived closer I would have said let's see... but I don't
> 
> Any rate it's never been a dick measuring thread unfortunately we are talking $5000 brax amp not some $50 Walmart special. So some of us do have setups upwards of $30k....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry, but YOU make it a dick measuring contest every time you talk about $5,000 this and $30,000 that. 

Seriously, you are spinning out of control with BS just like 3 years ago in that Zapco thread. The thing is, you assume that because you can spend this kind of money, or at least claim to, you achieve what you call an "audiophile". An elite who knows best no matter what science and real world experience of highly accomplished others know and can prove.


----------



## Elektra

jriggs said:


> Sorry, but YOU make it a dick measuring contest every time you talk about $5,000 this and $30,000 that.
> 
> Seriously, you are spinning out of control with BS just like 3 years ago in that Zapco thread. The thing is, you assume that because you can spend this kind of money, or at least claim to, you achieve what you call an "audiophile". An elite who knows best no matter what science and real world experience of highly accomplished others know and can prove.




Yeah I remember that Zapco thread all you morons where telling me the same thing I am saying here - it's amazing how you all changed your tune

I said then that the new Korean amps were junk and it started a debate like this - years later the guys who were Zapco lovers turned to Zapco haters one by one... 

Funny how that happened... 

Friends of mine used to send me screen shots of guys who gave me a hard time in that thread - all of sudden selling there gear and changing brand and later complaining about it...

I really don't care... to be honest! I am not going to feel embarrassed because I own an expensive amp




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Elektra said:


> Yeah I remember that Zapco thread all you morons where telling me the same thing I am saying here - it's amazing how you all changed your tune
> 
> I said then that the new Korean amps were junk and it started a debate like this - years later the guys who were Zapco lovers turned to Zapco haters one by one...
> 
> Funny how that happened...
> 
> Friends of mine used to send me screen shots of guys who gave me a hard time in that thread - all of sudden selling there gear and changing brand and later complaining about it...
> 
> I really don't care... to be honest! I am not going to feel embarrassed because I own an expensive amp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't take it too personal. You and I are not going to convince anyone of anything. Some people have their minds made up and are not open to a different perspective. Any you know what they say, perspective is reality.

In my opinion, having a great tonality equates to better SQ than just being technically accurate. I agree with that 100%. 

However, when the two merge.......holy moly! Absolute nirvana.

P.S. I just ordered expensive RCA cables to replace my radio shack specials.


----------



## Elektra

High Resolution Audio said:


> Don't take it too personal. You and I are not going to convince anyone of anything. Some people have their minds made up and are not open to a different perspective. Any you know what they say, perspective is reality.
> 
> In my opinion, having a great tonality equates to better SQ than just being technically accurate. I agree with that 100%.
> 
> However, when the two merge.......holy moly! Absolute nirvana.
> 
> P.S. I just ordered expensive RCA cables to replace my radio shack specials.




100%...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

High Resolution Audio said:


> Don't take it too personal. You and I are not going to convince anyone of anything. Some people have their minds made up and are not open to a different perspective. Any you know what they say, perspective is reality.
> 
> In my opinion, having a great tonality equates to better SQ than just being technically accurate. I agree with that 100%.
> 
> However, when the two merge.......holy moly! Absolute nirvana.
> 
> P.S. I just ordered expensive RCA cables to replace my radio shack specials.




What RCA cables did you get?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bnae38

http://www.woofersetc.com/media/cat...b33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/i/si92yf_07_7.jpg

:thumbsup:


----------



## Elektra

bnae38 said:


> http://www.woofersetc.com/media/cat...b33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/i/si92yf_07_7.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> :thumbsup:




Stinger?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

High Resolution Audio said:


> In my opinion, having a middle seat and setting the EQ symmetrical allows one to hear what a tuned system is suppose to sound like. Moving to the drivers seat and adjusting time alignment and balance allows for a sound system that is very close to nearly identical. Probably because of the unique install of this particular vehicle. You probably are right about the responses being different. However, what I am saying is with critical listening, they don't appear to be really that far off.


But which seat do you DRIVE in? Every single sq car I've been in was tuned for the DRIVERS seat. In nearly every vehicle I've owned I could have done the same thing you do in that big van of yours and sit in the middle for critical listening. I however choose not to because that's not how it works. We tune for the seat we DRIVE in to get the sweet spot in that area. If you make it to a g2g you will be asked to demo while sitting in the DRIVERS seat. Not the passenger seat (unless it's a 2-seat car), and certainly NOT the middle.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

High Resolution Audio said:


> Don't take it too personal. You and I are not going to convince anyone of anything. Some people have their minds made up and are not open to a different perspective. Any you know what they say, perspective is reality.
> 
> In my opinion, having a great tonality equates to better SQ than just being technically accurate. I agree with that 100%.
> 
> However, when the two merge.......holy moly! Absolute nirvana.
> 
> P.S. I just ordered expensive RCA cables to replace my radio shack specials.


You can have both from the driver's seat. most of the time accuracy and tonality fall into place with each other. When you get everything lined up and accurate things just seem to SOUND better because the smearing is pretty much gone.

As for you ordering expensive rca cables, whatever makes you happy. I've used rat shack specials quite a bit over the years and they're not bad at all for something cheap and quick. If you do hear more than just a slight difference with those high end cables it will all be psychoacoustic. Anything to make you THINK it's sounding better. Can't hide money


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Elektra said:


> What RCA cables did you get?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Audioquest


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Hillbilly SQ said:


> You can have both from the driver's seat. most of the time accuracy and tonality fall into place with each other. When you get everything lined up and accurate things just seem to SOUND better because the smearing is pretty much gone.
> 
> As for you ordering expensive rca cables, whatever makes you happy. I've used rat shack specials quite a bit over the years and they're not bad at all for something cheap and quick. If you do hear more than just a slight difference with those high end cables it will all be psychoacoustic. Anything to make you THINK it's sounding better. Can't hide money


At this point in time slight improvements are what I am reaching towards. Every little thing that I can do to help adds up in my opinion.


----------



## Elektra

High Resolution Audio said:


> Audioquest




I have Audioquest as well what series your getting?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rton20s




----------



## claydo

Damn.....dats nasty.


----------



## bnae38

rton20s said:


>


----------



## jriggs

Elektra said:


> Yeah I remember that Zapco thread all you morons where telling me the same thing I am saying here - it's amazing how you all changed your tune.
> 
> I said then that the new Korean amps were junk and it started a debate like this - years later the guys who were Zapco lovers turned to Zapco haters one by one...
> 
> Funny how that happened...
> 
> Friends of mine used to send me screen shots of guys who gave me a hard time in that thread - all of sudden selling there gear and changing brand and later complaining about it...
> 
> I really don't care... to be honest! I am not going to feel embarrassed because I own an expensive amp.


Really? Changed their tune. Okay, buddy. Truth is people change gear all the time. There is no widespread issue with Zapco, as you seem to be alluding to. The LE edition Zapco Z's for me, and many others have been phenomenal amps. 

I never suggested that you should be "embarrassed". You take all of this way to seriously/personally. You are entitled to your opinion, but facts are facts. Spend your money on what ever you want, I don't care. But then to justify it by claiming super-human hearing powers, etc. is just plain silly. 

You have once again taken over someone else's post and made it all about you. Well done.


----------



## #1BigMike

Dude that is gross but so damn funny :laugh:


----------



## bnae38

Still laughing. F'in nasty lol


----------



## Elektra

jriggs said:


> Really? Changed their tune. Okay, buddy. Truth is people change gear all the time. There is no widespread issue with Zapco, as you seem to be alluding to. The LE edition Zapco Z's for me, and many others have been phenomenal amps.
> 
> 
> 
> I never suggested that you should be "embarrassed". You take all of this way to seriously/personally. You are entitled to your opinion, but facts are facts. Spend your money on what ever you want, I don't care. But then to justify it by claiming super-human hearing powers, etc. is just plain silly.
> 
> 
> 
> You have once again taken over someone else's post and made it all about you. Well done.




What was so phenomenal about them? 

Did they sound better? What was the retail? - easy $1200? You know you could have bought a $50 amp that does the exact same job... right? 

Maybe even with the same board layout...

Seems a lot of people don't practice what they preach... 

Seems that there is a general understanding that if you purchase something over a certain amount your a idiot and anything under that amount and your part of the team...

So let's have it - what is that amount for future reference...

Lol...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bnae38

What's to be gained with a $500 amp vs a $50 amp?

Now what's to be gained with a $5000 amp vs a $500 amp?

A hell of a lot less IMO, esp considering cost difference.

Nobody is talking about pyle, lightning audio, etc...

My .02....


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

If you have to justify the purchase of a high dollar piece of gear you have bigger problems on your hands. If you buy a high dollar piece because you wanted it that's a different story...


----------



## Victor_inox

bnae38 said:


> What's to be gained with a $500 amp vs a $50 amp?
> 
> Now what's to be gained with a $5000 amp vs a $500 amp?
> 
> A hell of a lot less IMO, esp considering cost difference.
> 
> Nobody is talking about pyle, lightning audio, etc...
> 
> My .02....


 difference between$500 and $5000 is there unless we talking about Critical Mass Audio and such. 
Less is not Nothing, value of your dollar to you is surely different that value of my dollar to me. 
Talking about someone else money is ****ty business for sure. 
It doesn`t seems like nobody talking about pyle,lightning audio,etc...
It seems many talking about watt is watt and nothing else.

one more thing. Why is people screaming psychoacoustics not screaming about PA in regards to "good old school" amplifiers?
I`ve heard many of such amps worshipped by others but not really good at present time. what is that if not Psychoacoustics?


----------



## Elektra

bnae38 said:


> What's to be gained with a $500 amp vs a $50 amp?
> 
> Now what's to be gained with a $5000 amp vs a $500 amp?
> 
> A hell of a lot less IMO, esp considering cost difference.
> 
> Nobody is talking about pyle, lightning audio, etc...
> 
> My .02....




Why not Pyle and lightning audio? 

Do they not make rated power? They work don't they? 

Now this is starting to contradict many statements - Pyle not good enough? But a $500 amp is good enough? Says who? Not according to 80% of people who commented on this thread... 

What's the difference between a 2x50 Pyle and a 2x50 Zapco? Are they not 50rms per channel?

On a side note... if I wanted a 4 channel amp that made a clean 250+ per channel - what's that going to cost me? 

And does one exist... apart from the MX4... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

Hillbilly SQ said:


> If you have to justify the purchase of a high dollar piece of gear you have bigger problems on your hands. If you buy a high dollar piece because you wanted it that's a different story...




No justification required... high powered amps of reasonable build quality cost more... generally from what I have seen - not talking Class D


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox

Elektra said:


> No justification required... high powered amps of reasonable build quality cost more... generally from what I have seen - not talking Class D
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why not class D? Do you know that about every AB amplifier you praise has switching power supply that makes it not much different than D class.


----------



## jriggs

Elektra said:


> What's the difference between a 2x50 Pyle and a 2x50 Zapco? Are they not 50rms per channel? *A lot.*
> 
> On a side note... if I wanted a 4 channel amp that made a clean 250+ per channel - what's that going to cost me?
> 
> And does one exist... apart from the MX4...
> 
> *Yep, XL-250c4 - Gladen 4-Channel Full MOSFET XL Series Amplifier*
> 
> *http://www.crutchfield.com/S-9hMfvE...:_custom_label:140&awmt=b&awnw=g&awug=9032367*
> 
> *https://www.mmatsproaudio.com/product/hifi-4250d/
> *
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You just can't stop, can you...


----------



## Elektra

Victor_inox said:


> difference between$500 and $5000 is there unless we talking about Critical Mass Audio and such.
> Less is not Nothing, value of your dollar to you is surely different that value of my dollar to me.
> Talking about someone else money is ****ty business for sure.
> It doesn`t seems like nobody talking about pyle,lightning audio,etc...
> It seems many talking about watt is watt and nothing else.
> 
> one more thing. Why is people screaming psychoacoustics not screaming about PA in regards to "good old school" amplifiers?
> I`ve heard many of such amps worshipped by others but not really good at present time. what is that if not Psychoacoustics?




Good example are the old Rubicon and Reference Soundstream amps... very highly regarded

I sold my Rubicon Picasso Class A and Renoir Class A and Rubicon 1002 amps to a guy 15 years back - he had them all this time till earlier this year he wanted to sell them so I thought I would look at it if the price was right..

He let me test them... they sounded crap... the amount of background noise bothered me especially on the 1002... granted old amps maybe a few dry caps etc.. 

But a modern day amp IMHO sounded way better... TO ME!

One has to consider that amp building has improved over the years...

So I gave them back to him...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RollingThunder

Boston GT amps and Pro comps. (when and if you can still find them)
Audison, Helix, Brax, (tube amps)
list goes on


----------



## Elektra

jriggs said:


> You just can't stop, can you...




Dude "a lot" what a contradictory statement... you would be laughed at in court...

A lot what? That's very vague....

Your sounding like your full of ****... or should I say "a lot"

What a ambiguous ridiculous statement in context of this thread... how bizarre! 

So your saying there is a difference between the amps then? Or "a lot" which is it? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ChrisB

Victor_inox said:


> difference between$500 and $5000 is there unless we talking about Critical Mass Audio and such.
> Less is not Nothing, value of your dollar to you is surely different that value of my dollar to me.
> Talking about someone else money is ****ty business for sure.
> It doesn`t seems like nobody talking about pyle,lightning audio,etc...
> It seems many talking about watt is watt and nothing else.


That starts getting tough, though. At one time, there was a Lightning Audio amplifier that was a rebranded Rockford Fosgate amplifier, made rated power, and was a diamond in the rough. The same could be said about the Pyramid gold series as well as some other obscure budget brands that had big names behind their design and sometimes manufacturing process. 

Then again, there was the ultra-expensive Critical Mass amplifier that was nothing more than a rebranded American Bass amplifier, containing the same exact VFL circuit board. At least I can appreciate the Critical Mass business model. I'd rather sell very few products at a high-profit margin leaving me with a very small customer base to support.

I'll also agree that going from a $50 to a $500 can make a huge difference whereas going from a $500 amplifier to a $2,500 amplifier sometimes netted NO audible difference. The main difference between the $50 amplifier and the $500 amplifier is that the $50 amplifier didn't make rated power and was nothing more than a glorified bridged IC chip amp, like what is found in most head units. 

The difference between the $500 and $2,500 amplifier is that the $2,500 amplifier used top tier components with lower tolerance thresholds, but those lower tolerance thresholds made no audible difference to me in a moving vehicle. Now, here is the kicker, not all $2,500+ amplifiers use top tier components (i.e. Critical Mass). Some research is required to determine whether one is getting what they are paying for versus just paying for a name, unicorn farts, magic SQ fairy dust, or someone's weird business model. Sadly, one doesn't always get what they are paying for.


----------



## bnae38

Elektra said:


> Why not Pyle and lightning audio?
> 
> Do they not make rated power? They work don't they?
> 
> Now this is starting to contradict many statements - Pyle not good enough? But a $500 amp is good enough? Says who? Not according to 80% of people who commented on this thread...
> 
> What's the difference between a 2x50 Pyle and a 2x50 Zapco? Are they not 50rms per channel?
> 
> On a side note... if I wanted a 4 channel amp that made a clean 250+ per channel - what's that going to cost me?
> 
> And does one exist... apart from the MX4...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I suppose reliability is my first thought. With that comes some peace of mind..

I've had an audison 2 channel for 10-15 years and beat the hell out of it. I ripped through a handful of amps my first 5 years, (sony, us acoustics, hifonics etc). After playing with the mid-upper echelon stuff (audison, arc, etc), I haven't really had any problems.

Apples to apples musicality? Well.. I've only really gotten in deep the past year with dsp/measurement etc. So I'm not going to comment there.. I would imagine they sound better?


----------



## Elektra

ChrisB said:


> That starts getting tough, though. At one time, there was a Lightning Audio amplifier that was a rebranded Rockford Fosgate amplifier, made rated power, and was a diamond in the rough. The same could be said about the Pyramid gold series as well as some other obscure budget brands that had big names behind their design and sometimes manufacturing process.
> 
> 
> 
> Then again, there was the ultra-expensive Critical Mass amplifier that was nothing more than a rebranded American Bass amplifier, containing the same exact VFL circuit board. At least I can appreciate the Critical Mass business model. I'd rather sell very few products at a high-profit margin leaving me with a very small customer base to support.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll also agree that going from a $50 to a $500 can make a huge difference whereas going from a $500 amplifier to a $2,500 amplifier sometimes netted NO audible difference. The main difference between the $50 amplifier and the $500 amplifier is that the $50 amplifier didn't make rated power and was nothing more than a glorified bridged IC chip amp, like what is found in most head units.
> 
> 
> 
> The difference between the $500 and $2,500 amplifier is that the $2,500 amplifier used top tier components with lower tolerance thresholds, but those lower tolerance thresholds made no audible difference to me in a moving vehicle. Now, here is the kicker, not all $2,500+ amplifiers use top tier components (i.e. Critical Mass). Some research is required to determine whether one is getting what they are paying for versus just paying for a name, unicorn farts, magic SQ fairy dust, or someone's weird business model. Sadly, one doesn't always get what they are paying for.




So we can conclude that there is a difference between amps then? Price not a consideration as marketing/branding and highway robbery plays a role in how obscure a product is priced on the shelves - Ala Critical Mass... 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox

ChrisB said:


> That starts getting tough, though. At one time, there was a Lightning Audio amplifier that was a rebranded Rockford Fosgate amplifier, made rated power, and was a diamond in the rough. The same could be said about the Pyramid gold series as well as some other obscure budget brands that had big names behind their design and sometimes manufacturing process.
> 
> Then again, there was the ultra-expensive Critical Mass amplifier that was nothing more than a rebranded American Bass amplifier, containing the same exact VFL circuit board. At least I can appreciate the Critical Mass business model. I'd rather sell very few products at a high-profit margin leaving me with a very small customer base to support.
> 
> I'll also agree that going from a $50 to a $500 can make a huge difference whereas going from a $500 amplifier to a $2,500 amplifier sometimes netted NO audible difference. The main difference between the $50 amplifier and the $500 amplifier is that the $50 amplifier didn't make rated power and was nothing more than a glorified bridged IC chip amp, like what is found in most head units.
> 
> The difference between the $500 and $2,500 amplifier is that the $2,500 amplifier used top tier components with lower tolerance thresholds, but those lower tolerance thresholds made no audible difference to me in a moving vehicle. Now, here is the kicker, not all $2,500+ amplifiers use top tier components (i.e. Critical Mass). Some research is required to determine whether one is getting what they are paying for versus just paying for a name, unicorn farts, magic SQ fairy dust, or someone's weird business model. Sadly, one doesn't always get what they are paying for.


 It got old on post #1,or about 1500 thread before this one.

Critical mass model is widely spread,thanks to celebrities promotions.


----------



## ChrisB

Victor_inox said:


> It got old on post #1,or about 1500 thread before this one.
> 
> Critical mass model is widely spread,thanks to celebrities promotions.


Snoop Dogg runs Critical Mass up in his ride yo. Everyone wants to be like Snoop. :laugh:


----------



## sonikaccord

Elektra said:


> Why not Pyle and lightning audio?
> 
> Do they not make rated power? They work don't they?
> 
> Now this is starting to contradict many statements - Pyle not good enough? But a $500 amp is good enough? Says who? Not according to 80% of people who commented on this thread...
> 
> What's the difference between a 2x50 Pyle and a 2x50 Zapco? Are they not 50rms per channel?
> 
> On a side note... if I wanted a 4 channel amp that made a clean 250+ per channel - what's that going to cost me?
> 
> And does one exist... apart from the MX4...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This^^^
Should've been the whole point of this thread, but too many people get caught up on the costs aspect.

I think everyone here agrees that the more expensive an amp is, the better it should sound right? 
Why wouldn't it be possible to mod an amp to perform better than stock?
Why can't the Pyle perform better than the Zapco?


----------



## rton20s

ChrisB said:


> Snoop Dogg runs Critical Mass up in his ride yo. Everyone wants to be like Snoop. :laugh:


----------



## claydo

The problem that causes these confrontations is not what you spend on amps.......buy what you want, and be happy. The problem begins when you feel it necessary to justify your purchases through claims that a premium brand is the only way to reach the heights of audio nirvana you require, because your hearing and/or listening skills are superior to those who don't choose to spend lavish ammounts of cash on gear. This is a stretch, I know it, you know it. If you must justify your purchase to yourself, a simple "I wanted it" should sufice, if you're trying to justify your purchase to an online community, the same quote will also do........you wanted them, nuff said. Exclusively priced electronics are a luxury, actual audible gains beyond soundly engineered, competently assembled electronics are minimal at best, and by no means justification for the elevated prices. You are simply buying exclusivity, and satisfying the urge to have the highest quality available, if said manufacturer follows a philosophy of giving the customer what they pay for. Spend whatever you feel necessary on gear, and realize that most do exactly that, so if both sides would quit wasting time justifying themselves, we'd all get along much better.....lol.


----------



## Victor_inox

claydo said:


> The problem that causes these confrontations is not what you spend on amps.......buy what you want, and be happy. The problem begins when you feel it necessary to justify your purchases through claims that a premium brand is the only way to reach the heights of audio nirvana you require, because your hearing and/or listening skills are superior to those who don't choose to spend lavish ammounts of cash on gear. This is a stretch, I know it, you know it. If you must justify your purchase to yourself, a simple "I wanted it" should sufice, if you're trying to justify your purchase to an online community, the same quote will also do........you wanted them, nuff said. Exclusively priced electronics are a luxury, actual audible gains beyond soundly engineered, competently assembled electronics are minimal at best, and by no means justification for the elevated prices. You are simply buying exclusivity, and satisfying the urge to have the highest quality available, if said manufacturer follows a philosophy of giving the customer what they pay for. Spend whatever you feel necessary on gear, and realize that most do exactly that, so if both sides would quit wasting time justifying themselves, we'd all get along much better.....lol.


AMEN!


----------



## Babs

I was kinda hoping to read stuff in here like "this amp is good SQ because... " then have pics and specs and junk.. Followed with "notice the use of nichicon caps, the robust power supply as seen here, here and here.... " You know, discussion of what goes into a good amp, regardless of class so I could grab popcorn and learn some stuffs.


----------



## MrGreen83

Anddddd nope lol. It's the 2016 diyma! Argue argue argue...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sonikaccord

rton20s said:


>


Yep...you won the thread.


----------



## sonikaccord

Babs said:


> I was kinda hoping to read stuff in here like "this amp is good SQ because... " then have pics and specs and junk.. Followed with "notice the use of nichicon caps, the robust power supply as seen here, here and here.... " You know, discussion of what goes into a good amp, regardless of class so I could grab popcorn and learn some stuffs.


Here ya go:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-dogma/141216-higher-end-amp-sq-myth-138.html


----------



## High Resolution Audio

In my opinion,

I'm sorry to those of you that think this thread is bad. For those of you who don't like it, don't read it. 

But I actually enjoy this spirited debate. It gets people talking and exchanging ideas, and offering up opinions. 

It can be considered quite entertaining. It seems as a lot of us are reading the posts and some are chiming in. 

This is a healthy exchange of ideas and thoughts. It helps to show who has the same thoughts regarding what is important and what is not important. 

We all love and are passionate about vehicle audio and we all are brothers. If we piss someone off from time to time, at least we are are exchanging ideas.

Hell we even got Mike Young to post! And those GiF's show some creativity.


----------



## rton20s

Babs said:


> I was kinda hoping to read stuff in here like "this amp is good SQ because... " then have pics and specs and junk.. Followed with "notice the use of nichicon caps, the robust power supply as seen here, here and here.... " You know, discussion of what goes into a good amp, regardless of class so I could grab popcorn and learn some stuffs.


----------



## jriggs

Victor_inox said:


> AMEN!


Amen again and again.


----------



## bertholomey

claydo said:


> The problem that causes these confrontations is not what you spend on amps.......buy what you want, and be happy. The problem begins when you feel it necessary to justify your purchases through claims that a premium brand is the only way to reach the heights of audio nirvana you require, because your hearing and/or listening skills are superior to those who don't choose to spend lavish ammounts of cash on gear. This is a stretch, I know it, you know it. If you must justify your purchase to yourself, a simple "I wanted it" should sufice, if you're trying to justify your purchase to an online community, the same quote will also do........you wanted them, nuff said. Exclusively priced electronics are a luxury, actual audible gains beyond soundly engineered, competently assembled electronics are minimal at best, and by no means justification for the elevated prices. You are simply buying exclusivity, and satisfying the urge to have the highest quality available, if said manufacturer follows a philosophy of giving the customer what they pay for. Spend whatever you feel necessary on gear, and realize that most do exactly that, so if both sides would quit wasting time justifying themselves, we'd all get along much better.....lol.




Thank you Clay.....words of wisdom from Y'ville!


----------



## bertholomey

Babs said:


> I was kinda hoping to read stuff in here like "this amp is good SQ because... " then have pics and specs and junk.. Followed with "notice the use of nichicon caps, the robust power supply as seen here, here and here.... " You know, discussion of what goes into a good amp, regardless of class so I could grab popcorn and learn some stuffs.




I thought this was a helpful post as well - would be cool if this thread took this turn....would be much more beneficial for the OP.


----------



## Jheitt142

But then it's about who still makes a reliable long term amp. 

This is about great sounding amps. Which seem to be pretty much every amp as long as it's used within it's limits. That's something I didn't know but I'm happy I learned. 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## jriggs

Babs said:


> I was kinda hoping to read stuff in here like "this amp is good SQ because... " then have pics and specs and junk.. Followed with "notice the use of nichicon caps, the robust power supply as seen here, here and here.... " You know, discussion of what goes into a good amp, regardless of class so I could grab popcorn and learn some stuffs.


Okay, so here are a few things I like about the Zapco Z LE/LX amps and why I think they are phenomenal:

• Output devices in the LX’s are all from Sanken of Japan

• Small value signal caps are Mica 

• All the electrolytc caps in the signal path are Elna Silmic ll 

• Analog Devices OP275 Op-amps 

• High Voltage Nichicon KZ storage caps provide rock solid, voltage and amazing clarity to the amplifer.

• High current switching FETs allow the power supply to operate at twice the usual speed and greatly increase the efficiency of the power supply. The 4 channel has dual power supplies.

• Input filter coil and ultra low ESR, high voltage Panasonic FC input filter caps keep the voltage into the power supply clean and quiet.

• Advanced regulation circuitry keeps power up and keeps voltage fluctuations out, regardless of input voltage swings.

Plus, Tiffany style RCA connectors, separate channel gain controls and all preamp controls are eliminated. On top of all that are reliable (ran 2 of them in my daily driver for 3 years often driving hour long commutes and 2-4 hour long business trips), run cool and I got them at a great price.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

jriggs said:


> Okay, so here are a few things I like about the Zapco Z LE/LX amps and why I think they are phenomenal:
> 
> • Output devices in the LX’s are all from Sanken of Japan
> 
> • Small value signal caps are Mica
> 
> • All the electrolytc caps in the signal path are Elna Silmic ll
> 
> • Analog Devices OP275 Op-amps
> 
> • High Voltage Nichicon KZ storage caps provide rock solid, voltage and amazing clarity to the amplifer.
> 
> • High current switching FETs allow the power supply to operate at twice the usual speed and greatly increase the efficiency of the power supply. The 4 channel has dual power supplies.
> 
> • Input filter coil and ultra low ESR, high voltage Panasonic FC input filter caps keep the voltage into the power supply clean and quiet.
> 
> • Advanced regulation circuitry keeps power up and keeps voltage fluctuations out, regardless of input voltage swings.
> 
> Plus, Tiffany style RCA connectors, separate channel gain controls and all preamp controls are eliminated. On top of all that are reliable (ran 2 of them in my daily driver for 3 years often driving hour long commutes and 2-4 hour long business trips), run cool and I got them at a great price.


In my opinion, this ^^^^ information is boring. See what you started, Babs.

Lets get back to the name calling, bickering, and how rotten this thread has become and needs to end type of comments. With the popcorn makers and ****ty shower scenes. Much more interesting.


----------



## Elektra

bertholomey said:


> I thought this was a helpful post as well - would be cool if this thread took this turn....would be much more beneficial for the OP.




We tried on post 30 something...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

jriggs said:


> Okay, so here are a few things I like about the Zapco Z LE/LX amps and why I think they are phenomenal:
> 
> • Output devices in the LX’s are all from Sanken of Japan
> 
> • Small value signal caps are Mica
> 
> • All the electrolytc caps in the signal path are Elna Silmic ll
> 
> • Analog Devices OP275 Op-amps
> 
> • High Voltage Nichicon KZ storage caps provide rock solid, voltage and amazing clarity to the amplifer.
> 
> • High current switching FETs allow the power supply to operate at twice the usual speed and greatly increase the efficiency of the power supply. The 4 channel has dual power supplies.
> 
> • Input filter coil and ultra low ESR, high voltage Panasonic FC input filter caps keep the voltage into the power supply clean and quiet.
> 
> • Advanced regulation circuitry keeps power up and keeps voltage fluctuations out, regardless of input voltage swings.
> 
> Plus, Tiffany style RCA connectors, separate channel gain controls and all preamp controls are eliminated. On top of all that are reliable (ran 2 of them in my daily driver for 3 years often driving hour long commutes and 2-4 hour long business trips), run cool and I got them at a great price.




And how different to this is what I was saying a million posts ago? 

But in the spirit of this thread - what has that got to do with the way the amp sounds or performs 

Once again - how does this make an amp sound better to another? 

Or are you saying that because of these parts the amp sounds better than another that has lessor parts in them?

We see you mention specifically AD OPAMPS... these are directly related to the sound of the amp as most HIFI enthusiasts OPAMP swop - yield different audio results...

So do amps sound different now? Because it sure sounds like your alluding to it with listing everything in a amp that makes an amp different to another...? 





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Elektra said:


> And how different to this is what I was saying a million posts ago?
> 
> But in the spirit of this thread - what has that got to do with the way the amp sounds or performs
> 
> Once again - how does this make an amp sound better to another?
> 
> Or are you saying that because of these parts the amp sounds better than another that has lessor parts in them?
> 
> We see you mention specifically AD OPAMPS... these are directly related to the sound of the amp as most HIFI enthusiasts OPAMP swop - yield different audio results...
> 
> So do amps sound different now? Because it sure sounds like your alluding to it with listing everything in a amp that makes an amp different to another...?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yes, amps sound different. There is no need to try and convince the unbelievers. 

What makes for a good SQ amp? One that does it's job well and lasts for years of service. One that will make an owner want to fix it when it stops working, rather than replace it. 

In my opinion, 

The quality of it's electronic parts inside. The size of the power supply, the OpAmps, the company that makes it and for how long they have been in business. RCA connections, quality of solder and technique. The way it's designed to reject noise, the noise floor, how well it dissipates heat. It's sonic characteristics. THD and IMD specifications. To list a few.

But it's most important function is to not add or subtract anything from the signal. Just amplify it as cleanly as possible. 

As well as have complete control the speakers. This is where differences in the quality of construction and materials factors in to better sound quality. 

Again, In my opinion.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

No one is saying that amps don't sound different. What sets them apart is the ability to throw down power that's true to the signal and at least do rated power without AUDIBLE distortion. Beyond that, it's all snake oil and unicorn farts. I consider an amp that sounds "more clear" to be a better amp. This is why I love the JL XD. Sounds super clear and does good clean power. Actually, I've heard the RD series has the XD board without the tweaking options the XD does. All I need is a gain on an amps so...


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Hillbilly SQ said:


> No one is saying that amps don't sound different. What sets them apart is the ability to throw down power that's true to the signal and at least do rated power without AUDIBLE distortion. Beyond that, it's all snake oil and unicorn farts. I consider an amp that sounds "more clear" to be a better amp. This is why I love the JL XD. Sounds super clear and does good clean power. Actually, I've heard the RD series has the XD board without the tweaking options the XD does. All I need is a gain on an amps so...


Thank you for your opinion of the JL XD series. I have heard a lot of positive comments in regards to the XD. I am glad that you are sharing your thoughts and opinions on them. I have had the slash series and find them to just meh in my opinion.

There are people that were arguing that amps do not sound different. This is what lead to this thread taking a turn for the worst ( or more entertaining )

I really like old school products. I am happy with my Soundstream Amps on my tweets. They seem to have more power on demand and keep up instantaneously with the music, if that makes any sense.

Some models did seem to have issues where the power wires connected to the board and would fry up a lot.


----------



## Elektra

High Resolution Audio said:


> Thank you for your opinion of the JL XD series. I am glad that you are sharing your thoughts and opinions on them. I have had the slash series and find them to just meh in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> There are people that would have been arguing that amps do not sound different. This is what lead to this thread taking a turn for the worst ( or more entertaining )
> 
> 
> 
> I really like old school products. I am happy with my Soundstream Amps on my tweets. They seem to have more power on demand and keep up with the music, if that makes any sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Some models did seem to have issues where the power wires connected to the board and would fry up a lot.




I think we all loved our old school amps - I had as my first SQ amp was a Soundstream MC300 had a Soundstream Exact 6.3 fronts and Exact 10 (still a favorite) and a Reference 500 and a super rare Soundstream STC 80 and DC1000 shuttle and DTA1 (I am sure this is all Chinese to everyone) honestly one of the nicest systems you will ever hear

But...

Times have changed - amps have improved - they use more capacitance and better OPAMPS etc... dual mono designs etc 

I have no doubt my setup today is miles better than that system I had in 96 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

I actually still believe what my cousin told me about 30 years ago. When it comes to amplifiers, about 50% is clean power and as it goes up from there, so does the distortion level.

Another installer years ago told me that I need not be concerned with the "rated" power of drivers and match them up with an amplifier. He said that as long as you feed a driver good, clean power, it will not harm the drivers.


I subscribe to this philosophy, and so I always use at least twice the rated power when selecting my amplifiers. That way, I only use the clean distortion free part of the amp.

I also try and not set my gains more than 50% of their travel. ( Well maybe just a touch, but that is all ).

I've had my Boston Pro series mid bass drivers since the 1990's and I still am using them today. They were rated for 75 watts ( I believe ) and I have given them double that with no issues. However, I listen carefully for distortion. I can't hear it as well as I did 30 years ago, but I try.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Elektra said:


> I think we all loved our old school amps - I had as my first SQ amp was a Soundstream MC300 had a Soundstream Exact 6.3 fronts and Exact 10 (still a favorite) and a Reference 500 and a super rare Soundstream STC 80 and DC1000 shuttle and DTA1 (I am sure this is all Chinese to everyone) honestly one of the nicest systems you will ever hear
> 
> But...
> 
> Times have changed - amps have improved - they use more capacitance and better OPAMPS etc... dual mono designs etc
> 
> I have no doubt my setup today is miles better than that system I had in 96
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I still prefer the equipment from the SQ era, because I think that the lack of demand in this country for SQ equipment has made for no supply.

This is why in order to get good SQ components we must outsource to other countries like Germany, Italy, and Denmark, and Japan. 

There was a battle for SQ which peaked a few years after you put your system together. Equipment became leaps and bounds better each and every year back then until they peaked in the very early 2000s. Your equipment became out dated the very next year. 


My system sounds better than it did in the early 2000s for two reasons:

1. I upgraded some of the drivers which gave a very tiny slight improvement.

2. I am starting to learn how to install better , tune ( I didn't even know what time alignment was or why it was important) as well as how to listen critically to know what and how to adjust for. 

One can still get quality old school components off E-bay without going the mega expensive modern route. 

I would argue that my old school system would rival any new school system put together today But I have only spend a few thousand dollars. 

In order to get the best sound today, one would have to come up with a boatload of cash. Gear that would rival the equipment at the peak of SQ in the Early 2000's probably would cost at least $20-25K. I'm not willing to put that kind of money into a sound system in order to get results that may or may not sound better.

Imho


----------



## Elektra

High Resolution Audio said:


> I still prefer the equipment from the SQ era, because I think that the lack of demand in this country for SQ equipment has made for no supply.
> 
> This is why in order to get good SQ components we must outsource to other countries like Germany, Italy, and Denmark, and Japan.
> 
> I would say my system sounds better than it did in the Early 2000's because of two reasons.
> 
> One, there was a battle for SQ which peaked a few years after you put your system together. Equipment became leaps and bounds better each and every year back then until they peaked in the very early 2000s. Your equipment became out dated the very next year.
> 
> And Two, I am starting to learn how to tune as well as how to listen.
> 
> One can still get quality old school components off E-bay without going the mega expensive modern route.
> 
> I would argue that my old school system would rival any new school system today, and may in fact sound better. But I have only spend a few thousand dollars.
> 
> In order to get the best sound today, one would have to come up with a boatload of cash. Gear that would rival the equipment at the peak of SQ in the Early 2000's probably would cost at least $20-25K. I'm not willing to put that kind of money into a sound system in order to get results that may or may not sound better.
> 
> Imho




I don't think you need to spend $1000's on a decent SQ system...

I mentioned EOS about 200 posts ago - they make a very nice SQ products where I helped to order a SQ 4 channel amp 4x130 for €550 shipped for a friend and a very nice 5 channel 4x110+1x400 for less...

Amps use Sanken output transistors (some of them) and Wima, Elna, Rubycon caps and LT OPAMPS - very nice internal specs

You can do a 3 amp setup than won't cost more than $1500... a 4/2/2 amp setup plenty of power something like 6x130+680 all at 4ohms...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Elektra said:


> I don't think you need to spend $1000's on a decent SQ system...
> 
> I mentioned EOS about 200 posts ago - they make a very nice SQ products where I helped to order a SQ 4 channel amp 4x130 for €550 shipped for a friend and a very nice 5 channel 4x110+1x400 for less...
> 
> Amps use Sanken output transistors (some of them) and Wima, Elna, Rubycon caps and LT OPAMPS - very nice internal specs
> 
> You can do a 3 amp setup than won't cost more than $1500... a 4/2/2 amp setup plenty of power something like 6x130+680 all at 4ohms...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


EOS? Never heard of them. Don't even know if they are sold here in the U.S. Like I said, there has not been a lot of demand for SQ therefore, there are not a lot of SQ oriented equipment readily available.

The local install shop said 1% of the customers want a SQ system. The rest are happy with the biggest speakers they could possibly squeeze into their vehicles and an input that would allow them to plug in their phone. They are happy as a clam. 

I've listened to JL Audio top of the line tweeters as well as Alpine, which is what is readily available without special order. The tweeters sounded harsh as ****. I couldn't even fathom listening to them. 


Luckily, SQ is starting to make a comeback here in the US and there may be more choices in the near future at reasonable prices.


----------



## Elektra

High Resolution Audio said:


> EOS? Never heard of them. Don't even know if they are sold here in the U.S. Like I said, there has not been a lot of demand for SQ therefore, there are not a lot of SQ oriented equipment readily available.
> 
> 
> 
> The local install shop said 1% of the customers want a SQ system. The rest are happy with the biggest speakers they could possibly squeeze into their vehicles and an input that would allow them to plug in their phone. They are happy as a clam.
> 
> 
> 
> Luckily, SQ is starting to make a comeback here in the US and there may be more choices in the near future at reasonable prices.




They Russian - there amps are built in the same factory as Ground Zero Reference amps

Check attachment 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Elektra said:


> They Russian - there amps are built in the same factory as Ground Zero Reference amps
> 
> Check attachment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We don't have that readily available here in the states and if so, it would cost and arm and a leg.

Kenwood, Pioneer, Alpine, JL Audio, JVC, Polk, Kicker, Sony, and JBL and Chinese companies like Boss and such that make crap are what is readily available. 

Have to drive 8 1/2 hours to the nearest SQ car audio competition. Just SPL around me. 

SQ equipment is by special order and most of the time, you can't even demo it.


----------



## jtaudioacc

Elektra said:


> They Russian - there amps are built in the same factory as Ground Zero Reference amps
> 
> Check attachment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


the same chinese factory? which one?


----------



## Elektra

jtaudioacc said:


> the same chinese factory? which one?




Can't remember the name of the town - Shenzhen or something like that - I know someone who visited that facility - he says it was I a rough area but the factory is 3 floors and is cleaner than a hospital... 

They build other high end brands but he would not tell me.. he wanted to use a build house to build his own local products but there unit cost was too high for him...

So he used a cheaper factory... in China you need to be careful as you can use 2 identical looking parts but one is cheaper than the other and lessor quality so it's unreliable - he burnt his fingers on one shipment were a lot of his products were defective and had to replace all of them...

So there is build houses and there is build houses in China - some very good and some very suspect...

But I think only the really cheap stuff goes to those build houses.. most of the decent stuff goes to the more reputable build houses....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jscoyne2

Interjection. What do all of you experts think about the SQ of Sundown amps?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut

The problem starts when you say 'SQ' and 'amps' in the same sentence.............while talking about reproducing sound in a mobile environment.


----------



## Jscoyne2

sqnut said:


> The problem starts when you say 'SQ' and 'amps' in the same sentence.


Ok. Build quality, sound transparency and parts used of the sax 150.4 amp


http://sundownaudio.com/index.php/products/discontinued/item/sax-150-4

Fully active bandpassable crossovers. Lots of power. A/B topology. 

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Jscoyne2 said:


> Ok. Build quality, sound transparency and parts used of the sax 150.4 amp
> 
> 
> SAX-150.4
> 
> Fully active bandpassable crossovers. Lots of power. A/B topology.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


I do not know anything about that brand. However from looking at their web-sight and learning that they have a two year warranty is comforting.

In my opinion, It kind of looks as if they are catering to both SPL and SQ crowds. Best to let someone that is familiar with their products to chime in.


----------



## bertholomey

I believe that Sundown amp could be used effectively in a car with sound quality as the goal. Correctly installed, it should make rated power. 

I have had demos in 'SQ' cars that had Sundown amps installed, and there wasn't anything that stood out negatively from the amplifier side of the sound. I've known Jacob at Sundown for a while, and he stands by his products if there is a problem.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

High Resolution Audio said:


> I do not know anything about that brand. However from looking at their web-sight and learning that they have a two year warranty is comforting.
> 
> In my opinion, It kind of looks as if they are catering to both SPL and SQ crowds. Best to let someone that is familiar with their products to chime in.


I've heard nothing but good things about the owner of Sundown. He seems to really care about his customers. He does have some SQ stuff in his lineup but there's way too much money in SPL for him not to really take care of them. Last I heard Jacob of Sundown and Nick of Stereo Integrity were good friends and share a lot of notes with each other. Both are in Hickory, NC. Nick is more SQ and Jacob is more SPL with his products. I'd love to run Nick's hst11 in my ride but not sure I'd want to pull the current needed to feed that beast.


----------



## bertholomey

'Who still makes a good SQ amp?'

Mosconi does. 

Most of what I'll blather on about will have nothing to do with sound quality of the amplifiers. 

I chose my Mosconi amps initially because I could get a great price on new ones when the AS line were being introduced. Not everyone can get good prices for new Mosconi amps, so that is not a motivator for many. The specs I read on line were 'impressive', though I didn't understand much of what I read. 

They have decent power specs, and they have relatively low noise floor if installed properly. I would assume that most of their AS, Zero, and Class A amplifiers make at or near the stated power, but I don't know that as an actual fact - never had mine benched. 

One of the intriguing things about the Mosconi amps for me was the opportunity to customize the heat sink. Most would not want to do this or see it as a decision point, but for me, it became a huge advantage when I bought a used Class A that had been vinyl wrapped. I had already had the others painted, so it was fairly straightforward to get this one painted to match. Another advantage for me - with them painted - harder for me to switch them out  I see that as an advantage because I spend less time looking at other amplifiers....appreciate what I already have. 

I haven't heard of many Mosconi AS, Zero, Class A amps having reliability issues.....but for me, if one went down and I was able to find a used one, I would simply swap out the heat sinks.

The Mosconi amps are big.....so that would be a huge detractor for many guys looking for amplifiers to fit into their installs. I was fortunate that I had a very good installer that could devise a way to get 3 large amplifiers in a very small car. 

None of this may be helpful, but I thought I would add a perspective on choosing amplifiers that isn't based on whether they sound better than other amplifiers.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

I'll follow Jason's lead on what I consider a "good sq amp". I've left bits and pieces all over this thread, but here's the condensed version. 

Amp must be able to do rated power without falling on its face. 

I believe fullrange D has come far enough now on the known good models that a/b amps are a thing of the past when choosing an sq amp, but there's still nothing wrong with running a/b or even class A if you can fit them and have the electrical to support them. 

Noise floor should be nil with gains set for maximum clean output with a little more heat added for low recordings.

I like to hide my car audio gear when possible. An sq amp should be able to tucked away into a dark corner.

This is what's important TO ME. Before anyone tries to twist my words on a/b amps being a thing of the past, I'm not saying they don't still have their place. They're just not nearly as superior to D as they used to be as long as you stay away from the crap at the bottom. I'd run the JL XD/RD/HD and not think twice about it. Also the Arc XDIv2 and newest generation of Alpine PDX.


----------



## Elektra

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I'll follow Jason's lead on what I consider a "good sq amp". I've left bits and pieces all over this thread, but here's the condensed version.
> 
> Amp must be able to do rated power without falling on its face.
> 
> I believe fullrange D has come far enough now on the known good models that a/b amps are a thing of the past when choosing an sq amp, but there's still nothing wrong with running a/b or even class A if you can fit them and have the electrical to support them.
> 
> Noise floor should be nil with gains set for maximum clean output with a little more heat added for low recordings.
> 
> I like to hide my car audio gear when possible. An sq amp should be able to tucked away into a dark corner.
> 
> This is what's important TO ME. Before anyone tries to twist my words on a/b amps being a thing of the past, I'm not saying they don't still have their place. They're just not nearly as superior to D as they used to be as long as you stay away from the crap at the bottom. I'd run the JL XD/RD/HD and not think twice about it. Also the Arc XDIv2 and newest generation of Alpine PDX.




Class D has come a long way since it's introduction and has various classes that are born from the original Class D type. Helix P6 DSP MK2 has made some big strides making a Class D type amp sound like a Class AB amp

The reality is Class D is evolving to emulate the Class AB sound - so you eventually have a efficient Class AB amp.

Class D still has a way to go before big manufacturers ditch A and AB in favor of D technology...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Elektra said:


> Class D has come a long way since it's introduction and has various classes that are born from the original Class D type. Helix P6 DSP MK2 has made some big strides making a Class D type amp sound like a Class AB amp
> 
> The reality is Class D is evolving to emulate the Class AB sound - so you eventually have a efficient Class AB amp.
> 
> Class D still has a way to go before big manufacturers ditch A and AB in favor of D technology...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's nice to be able to get a lot of clean power and not have to upgrade the electrical system. I don't miss the days where you had to run big power wire to feed the old current hogs. Bridged to 4 channels my 800/8 does what seems to be a clean 800rms total and that's with 80a (iirc) of fusing on board. 20 years ago that amount of power would have taken up a whole cargo area. I'm liking where technology is goingI do remember the first generation of Alpine PDX amps being pretty bad. I ran a first generation 5ch for a bit and that was a bad sounding amp. Got it for a great price from a good buddy of mine, and then sold it back to him. Just goes to show you how far fullrange D has come in the past 10 years. I did test the PPI Ion extra small 4ch for the forum. That amp was beyond bad and lost my ass when I sold it on here. Another guy tested the distortion of the Ion mono amp and it wasn't pretty. Assuming the 4ch was just as bad.


----------



## sonikaccord

The thing is, only car and home audio enthusiasts use the term "SQ." If you go into the pro audio realm, there is no such thing as "SQ" for the most part.

For me, a good SQ amp should:
Have a digital audio input that allows for full configuration through a source unit.(personal preference)
Built-in DSP that can be adjusted from the source unit. (also personal preference)
A flat frequency response within its working range
0.1% THD at rated power.
A very stiff and fast power supply that puts very little noise on the rails.
Able to hold 6 db transients above max rated power for at least 100 ms
Very little crossover distortion.
96% average efficiency


----------



## Elektra

Hillbilly SQ said:


> It's nice to be able to get a lot of clean power and not have to upgrade the electrical system. I don't miss the days where you had to run big power wire to feed the old current hogs. Bridged to 4 channels my 800/8 does what seems to be a clean 800rms total and that's with 80a (iirc) of fusing on board. 20 years ago that amount of power would have taken up a whole cargo area. I'm liking where technology is goingI do remember the first generation of Alpine PDX amps being pretty bad. I ran a first generation 5ch for a bit and that was a bad sounding amp. Got it for a great price from a good buddy of mine, and then sold it back to him. Just goes to show you how far fullrange D has come in the past 10 years. I did test the PPI Ion extra small 4ch for the forum. That amp was beyond bad and lost my ass when I sold it on here. Another guy tested the distortion of the Ion mono amp and it wasn't pretty. Assuming the 4ch was just as bad.




I think like V8 engines are getting frugal in consumption I think the latest amp designs are also more frugal than the amps from yesteryear...

Problem is that the industry has moved away from high end audio imho - I mean Pioneer has been running the P99 for years now and it is not the ODR quality - that has been gone for more than a decade now - also F1 Status and the like 

Like it or not - your gonna pay high $ price to get a reputable product that has paid attention to build and components and design

It's only a handful of companies that try to maintain a "high End" product - the rest are bastardized single design board layouts with there own twist to the components to make it unique to there name - sometimes - some companies are shameful enough to do nothing and just put there name on it.

Battle of the marketing it becomes...

Audio seems to have moved to Hi-Res - every new DSP on the market is gearing up for it.. it's cheaper - no CD Mechs , no Laser, CDs are a dying format...

Must say I bought a LG V20 for the supposed Hi-Res capability over my old IPhone 6s -it was a disappointment as the IPhone sounded better to me so I ditched the LG... but the LG did have some Hi-Res files loaded on it - 192/24 - sounded like crap off my OEM car HU... 

But off the Sony those Hi-Res files were miles better than my AIFF recorded tracks on my IPhone - I mean hair raising good! 

Yes I presume LG specifically recorded those tracks but if that what Hi-Res could sound like - bye-bye CDs... 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## lizardking

SQ is nothing more than a sales term used by people who have no business even mentioning the term. It's a great way to take advantage of misinformed people. No different then terms used in the car industry to drive sales. Take advantage of people with more money then basic common sense. The said part, people fall into debt believing in this utter nonsense who don't have the money.

There will be people reading this thread who will somehow think they need to buy expensive amps to achieve some level of SQ. Don't!!!!! It's not real...


----------



## Elektra

lizardking said:


> SQ is nothing more than a sales term used by people who have no business even mentioning the term. It's a great way to take advantage of misinformed people. No different then terms used in the car industry to drive sales. Take advantage of people with more money then basic common sense. The said part, people fall into debt believing in this utter nonsense who don't have the money.




That's utter nonsense...

If you go into debt it's not because of the product you bought it's because you have no financial responsibility and live well beyond your means...

What that has to do with "SQ" I have no clue... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## lizardking

Elektra said:


> That's utter nonsense...
> 
> If you go into debt it's not because of the product you bought it's because you have no financial responsibility and live well beyond your means...
> 
> What that has to do with "SQ" I have no clue...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Welcome to America!!!


----------



## rton20s

Elektra said:


> Class D still has a way to go before big manufacturers ditch A and AB in favor of D technology...


I'll probably regret taking a break from poo gifs, but the thread has turned (at least temporarily) toward legitimate discussion. 

Now, I have to ask who in the world you consider "big manufacturers" in car audio? 

I understand you are in South Africa, but here in the US I would say the big guys are Alpine, Pioneer, Kenwood, JL, Kicker and Rockford Fosgate. Take a look at their amplifier line ups. Where do you see them putting their development and marketing money? Which of their lines do you think generate the most sales/revenue? From my personal observations it isn't class AB and hasn't been class A, well, maybe ever.


----------



## Elektra

rton20s said:


> I'll probably regret taking a break from poo gifs, but the thread has turned (at least temporarily) toward legitimate discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, I have to ask who in the world you consider "big manufacturers" in car audio?
> 
> 
> 
> I understand you are in South Africa, but here in the US I would say the big guys are Alpine, Pioneer, Kenwood, JL, Kicker and Rockford Fosgate. Take a look at their amplifier line ups. Where do you see them putting their development and marketing money? Which of their lines do you think generate the most sales/revenue? From my personal observations it isn't class AB and hasn't been class A, well, maybe ever.




Look every manufacturer does a Class D from Brax/Helix to Alpine give or take one or 2... 

It satisfies the market and there is great diversity in car audio specifically

I was alluding to Home HIFI as that's the highest form of commercial audio...

So I am referring to McIntosh and the likes... they sell $1mill systems to rich clientele that want the best of the best.. 

If Class D was surpassing A and AB then they would have started moving away from those class's in favor of Class D - also remember multiple big power block consume a lot of electricity in a house hold and most of the time you can't even switch them off as they take so long to warm up...

I know a guy who is the Dynaudio home agents and he has these special power blocks that he keeps on all the time because when he wants to demo stock he can't wait an hour.. 

He says his home electricity bill has literally doubled because of those power blocks...

Now Class D would be much more efficient and would have none of those issues and costs 

Yet it's Class A and AB that's preferred 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rton20s

Elektra said:


> Blah blah blah... expensive home audio... blah blah blah


*D*o
*I*t
*Y*ourself
*Mobile*
*A*udio

Welcom To DIYMA!


----------



## Elektra

rton20s said:


> *D*o
> 
> *I*t
> 
> *Y*ourself
> 
> *Mobile*
> 
> *A*udio
> 
> 
> 
> Welcom To DIYMA!




Similar technology... similar concept - you put CD and press play...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

People are going to buy what they want after hopefully doing enough research to make an educated decision. If they don't want that last .01% of perceived sq that's their business. Most of us don't have the money to drop on esoteric gear so we get by with gear that will get the job done nicely without breaking the bank. A known good class d amp works fine for me, and I could tell a big difference between it and my lower and Mosconi. The XD was just more clear. Bertholomy is happy with his higher end Mosconi amps and rightfully so. They're beautiful amps but take up a ton of room and probably need some decent current to do their thing. Two completely different people with completely different goals that are going for the same basic results...the best sound and staging we can get with what we have to work with.


----------



## sqnut

The difference between home audio and car audio is that in a 2ch, you can buy top of the line stuff, amps, speakers, source etc and as long as you set it up right, you will wind up amazing sound. In a car you can run the most expensive equipment you can lay your hands on, get a rock solid install, but if you don't know how to tune, you will still have meh sound. Once you have the right sound you'll know how much of it is down to the tune and how much to the equipment, but you need to get there first.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

sqnut said:


> The difference between home audio and car audio is that in a 2ch, you can buy top of the line stuff, amps, speakers, source etc and as long as you set it up right, you will wind up amazing sound. In a car you can run the most expensive equipment you can lay your hands on, get a rock solid install, but if you don't know how to tune, you will still have meh sound. Once you have the right sound you'll know how much of it is down to the tune and how much to the equipment, but you need to get there first.


Yup, in a car you're tuning more for the room than anything. I've heard low level gear with a good install and tune sound amazing. I'm a lot more impressed with a great sounding budget system than I am a great sounding high dollar system. The reasons should be obvious


----------



## Elektra

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Yup, in a car you're tuning more for the room than anything. I've heard low level gear with a good install and tune sound amazing. I'm a lot more impressed with a great sounding budget system than I am a great sounding high dollar system. The reasons should be obvious




We always give the doom and gloom scenario high equipment bad tune - sounds crap - cheap equipment good tune and sounds great

How about exceptional tune with exceptional equipment? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Elektra said:


> We always give the doom and gloom scenario high equipment bad tune - sounds crap - cheap equipment good tune and sounds great
> 
> How about exceptional tune with exceptional equipment?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Depends how much someone wants to spend and how legit that high priced equipment is. Say you spend $2000 on equipment and put an exceptional tune on it. 99% of people on this forum would be tickled to death by that. Then say you spend $10000 on equipment and give it an exceptional tune. Is it 5x better or has the law of diminishing returns kicked in? I know the answer. I highly doubt a system that's 5x the cost is going to sound 5x better. It's nice to be able to afford such gear, but buying high end car audio is pretty low on most priority lists.


----------



## sqnut

Elektra said:


> How about exceptional tune with exceptional equipment?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you think the good sound in your car is down to the equipment, then you don't have the right tune. When you have the right tune, you will just be blown away by the purity and experience of the sound and you won't be thinking about your amps, speakers etc. This experience can be replicated even with normal equipment above a certain threshold. That's when the penny drops.


----------



## Elektra

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Depends how much someone wants to spend and how legit that high priced equipment is. Say you spend $2000 on equipment and put an exceptional tune on it. 99% of people on this forum would be tickled to death by that. Then say you spend $10000 on equipment and give it an exceptional tune. Is it 5x better or has the law of diminishing returns kicked in? I know the answer. I highly doubt a system that's 5x the cost is going to sound 5x better. It's nice to be able to afford such gear, but buying high end car audio is pretty low on most priority lists.




That's not the point - if you feel 5x the price is worth the 10% improvement great! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jheitt142

sqnut said:


> If you think the good sound in your car is down to the equipment, then you don't have the right tune. When you have the right tune, you will just be blown away by the purity and experience of the sound and you won't be thinking about your amps, speakers etc. This experience can be replicated even with normal equipment above a certain threshold. That's when the penny drops.


So as someone who is shopping for new gear. It would make more sense to spend a given amount on a pair of amps and a DSP then to spend the entire amount on a pair of amps? 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jscoyne2

street.terror said:


> So as someone who is shopping for new gear. It would make more sense to spend a given amount on a pair of amps and a DSP then to spend the entire amount on a pair of amps?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Dsp absolutely but only if ur getting a mic and tuning it otherwise its a waste of time. 

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut

street.terror said:


> So as someone who is shopping for new gear. It would make more sense to spend a given amount on a pair of amps and a DSP then to spend the entire amount on a pair of amps?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Absolutely yes.


----------



## sqnut

Jscoyne2 said:


> Dsp absolutely but only if ur getting a mic and tuning it otherwise its a waste of time.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


Using a mic will get you in the ballpark, but beyond a point a mic will only take you in circles and you will need to learn how to use your ears.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Jscoyne2 said:


> Dsp absolutely but only if ur getting a mic and tuning it otherwise its a waste of time.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


It's not a total waste of time without a mic but it's A LOT harder to get where you need to be without one IF you ever get there by ear. I got further with a mic and a lot of stubborn patience over a few hours than I did over YEARS of trying to tweak by ear with test tracks. Once the left and right are near mirror images of each other in response, time alignment set properly, and everything else that goes with it the results can be quite haunting in a good way. Took years for my stubborn butt to finally realize this.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

street.terror said:


> So as someone who is shopping for new gear. It would make more sense to spend a given amount on a pair of amps and a DSP then to spend the entire amount on a pair of amps?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Ask questions, learn who to trust, and stay within your budget without compromising any more than you have to. $2000 will get you a great sounding system providing install and tune is good. $1000 will get you there too but you have to really hunt for deals and diamonds in the rough. There are deals to be had in the classifieds if you're willing to wait and have money in hand to pounce when a good deal from a reputable forum member comes up.


----------



## Jheitt142

Yeah my local market has me in a situation where I can get a pair of slashes or a c-dsp, umik and a pair of alpine v-12's. Pretty much the same power aside from the extra 75 per channel on 1-2 of the slash. And I've been stuck pondering for weeks 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

sqnut said:


> Using a mic will get you in the ballpark, but beyond a point a mic will only take you in circles and you will need to learn how to use your ears.


Let's not forget no two pairs of ears are alike. Funny story...I was at a g2g recently and all of us were saying one guy's center was just to the right of the left pillar. He said it was dead center for him but he's been having trouble with his hearing lately. A clogged eustasion tube was the problem. That night 3 of us lit up big fat cigars and smoked the garage up. The next morning me, him, and another guy got breakfast before hitting the road and he said his center moved to where we said it was. Guess all that cigar smoke knocked something loose. I know when my buddy needs to make something cut loose he'll smoke a cigar and inhale a few times. For the record, I RARELY smoke and if I do it's always socially. No more than I do it I don't think it's doing a bit of harm, but if it is at least I'm ruining my body with something that actually tastes good when smoked, lol.


----------



## sqnut

Hillbilly SQ said:


> It's not a total waste of time without a mic but it's A LOT harder to get where you need to be without one IF you ever get there by ear. I got further with a mic and a lot of stubborn patience over a few hours than I did over YEARS of trying to tweak by ear with test tracks. Once the left and right are near mirror images of each other in response, time alignment set properly, and everything else that goes with it the results can be quite haunting in a good way. Took years for my stubborn butt to finally realize this.


You probably gave up just before the light at the end of the tunnel. I do agree that it is a pita way to go about it and that one falls on their face about a million times before one gets there. But all the top guys there who compete, they can sit in any car and tune to make it sound way better in 10 mts, without really measuring anything.......


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

street.terror said:


> Yeah my local market has me in a situation where I can get a pair of slashes or a c-dsp, umik and a pair of alpine v-12's. Pretty much the same power aside from the extra 75 per channel on 1-2 of the slash. And I've been stuck pondering for weeks
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Nothing wrong with the c-dsp. It's a great unit for not a lot of money. The Helix destroys it with tweakability, but it also costs a lot more money. The c-dsp does fine for my needs and is keeping a lot of others happy too. I'd get a dsp and a couple lesser amps. The more expensive amps won't be worth a hill of beans if you can't control the signal much if any.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

sqnut said:


> You probably gave up just before the light at the end of the tunnel. I do agree that it is a pita way to go about it and that one falls on their face about a million times before one gets there. But all the top guys there who compete, they can sit in any car and tune to make it sound way better in 10 mts, without really measuring anything.......


I compared what I had without the use of rta to what I did with rta and tonality curve after ocd tuning and what I had was a smeared mess in comparison. I did it the way Kyle Ragsdale says to and it was so easy. Thought I was going to run out of bands but I got where I needed to be with just 12 bands of peq per pair of speakers, 36 total for the 3-way. Have a feeling it won't be such a cake walk with only 24 bands of peq on the output stage for 2-way front in the new vehicle. Just doors and sails crossed at around 2500 give or take a little instead of doors, dash, and dash corners crossed at 800 and 4000.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Elektra said:


> I think like V8 engines are getting frugal in consumption I think the latest amp designs are also more frugal than the amps from yesteryear...
> 
> Problem is that the industry has moved away from high end audio imho - I mean Pioneer has been running the P99 for years now and it is not the ODR quality - that has been gone for more than a decade now - also F1 Status and the like
> 
> Like it or not - your gonna pay high $ price to get a reputable product that has paid attention to build and components and design
> 
> It's only a handful of companies that try to maintain a "high End" product - the rest are bastardized single design board layouts with there own twist to the components to make it unique to there name - sometimes - some companies are shameful enough to do nothing and just put there name on it.
> 
> Battle of the marketing it becomes...
> 
> Audio seems to have moved to Hi-Res - every new DSP on the market is gearing up for it.. it's cheaper - no CD Mechs , no Laser, CDs are a dying format...
> 
> Must say I bought a LG V20 for the supposed Hi-Res capability over my old IPhone 6s -it was a disappointment as the IPhone sounded better to me so I ditched the LG... but the LG did have some Hi-Res files loaded on it - 192/24 - sounded like crap off my OEM car HU...
> 
> But off the Sony those Hi-Res files were miles better than my AIFF recorded tracks on my IPhone - I mean hair raising good!
> 
> Yes I presume LG specifically recorded those tracks but if that what Hi-Res could sound like - bye-bye CDs...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agree 100%


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Elektra said:


> We always give the doom and gloom scenario high equipment bad tune - sounds crap - cheap equipment good tune and sounds great
> 
> How about exceptional tune with exceptional equipment?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


YOU MAKE SUCH VALID POINTS!


----------



## High Resolution Audio

street.terror said:


> Yeah my local market has me in a situation where I can get a pair of slashes or a c-dsp, umik and a pair of alpine v-12's. Pretty much the same power aside from the extra 75 per channel on 1-2 of the slash. And I've been stuck pondering for weeks
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


I started out with slash amps. They did an o.k. job. When switching from the slash to old school rockford fosgate punch or old school soundstream the sound opened up from a more two dimensional flat boring presentation to one with more depth and realism and life. 

I cannot comment on the Alpine V-12's as I have no firsthand experience with them.


----------



## bnae38

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I did it the way Kyle Ragsdale says to and it was so easy.


Do you have a link? Always interested in different ways to tune.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I compared what I had without the use of rta to what I did with rta and tonality curve after ocd tuning and what I had was a smeared mess in comparison. I did it the way Kyle Ragsdale says to and it was so easy. Thought I was going to run out of bands but I got where I needed to be with just 12 bands of peq per pair of speakers, 36 total for the 3-way. Have a feeling it won't be such a cake walk with only 24 bands of peq on the output stage for 2-way front in the new vehicle. Just doors and sails crossed at around 2500 give or take a little instead of doors, dash, and dash corners crossed at 800 and 4000.


I watched Kyle Ragsdales videos and found them very informative. Problem is, I do not want to spend hours getting the perfect tune until my install is 100% complete. Selecting the right gear for me is paramount.

I'll never forget the experience of purchasing my first pair of expensive home speakers. Before that, I owned a cheap pair of speakers from a mail order catalog with 15" woofers. Over the years, I did driver swaps (but never the cheap crossover ) and I always had a 31 band graphic EQ to "tune" the system to sound good.

Then I purchased Definitive Technology BP-30's. $1500 a pair in 1999 money. I was blown away by how clear they sounded and when I thought I would hook them up and "tune" them with the 31 band, I became quite shocked. My findings were, that no matter what I did with the 31 band I could not get them to sound better than when the EQ was flat. That opened up my eyes to the fact that if one does invest in higher quality gear, then less and less tuning will be needed. I still subscribe to that philosophy today.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

bnae38 said:


> Do you have a link? Always interested in different ways to tune.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i8cxJaDyjg&list=PLYVlZcJp-V5Igh6-wR1hKOj3WbZ9ZH9Ei&index=3

6 part video series........


----------



## bnae38

Ah yes, i remember that one.

Thanks


----------



## Jheitt142

High Resolution Audio said:


> I started out with slash amps. They did an o.k. job. When switching from the slash to old school rockford fosgate punch or old school soundstream the sound opened up from a more two dimensional flat boring presentation to one with more depth and realism and life.
> 
> I cannot comment on the Alpine V-12's as I have no firsthand experience with them.


I currently run a single soundstream rubicon 555 that I love, however it has a 'ring' coming from inside on the power end. It wouldn't matter if it was in a trunk but how it currently sits in my truck I can hear it and it's terrible. Sucks, I really like the amp 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## bnae38

street.terror said:


> I currently run a single soundstream rubicon 555 that I love, however it has a 'ring' coming from inside on the power end. It wouldn't matter if it was in a trunk but how it currently sits in my truck I can hear it and it's terrible. Sucks, I really like the amp
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Take some high temp rtv to the choke, that will shut it up...

Did it on my xdi1200.6 after i reassured myself it wasn't actually an issue... sometimes they just resonate.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

street.terror said:


> I currently run a single soundstream rubicon 555 that I love, however it has a 'ring' coming from inside on the power end. It wouldn't matter if it was in a trunk but how it currently sits in my truck I can hear it and it's terrible. Sucks, I really like the amp
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Can you find someone to fix it? I just dropped off mine to be serviced.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

I'm going to say it again. CAR AUDIO AND HOME AUDIO ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ANIMALS. *GOOD EQUIPMENT HELPS IF IT'S RIGHT FOR THE INSTALL BUT IN A CAR YOU'RE TUNING MORE FOR THE TERRIBLE ROOM EVERYTHING IS INSTALLED IN.*


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I'm going to say it again. CAR AUDIO AND HOME AUDIO ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ANIMALS. *GOOD EQUIPMENT HELPS IF IT'S RIGHT FOR THE INSTALL BUT IN A CAR YOU'RE TUNING MORE FOR THE TERRIBLE ROOM EVERYTHING IS INSTALLED IN.*


You don't have to yell. I get your point. I just feel differently than you. I appreciate your opinion, for sure. I may have a little more experience than you when it comes to car audio equipment. I've lived longer and heard many a system. I've also payed close attention to car audio marketing. 

SQ was built into old school units. They took the SQ out of head units in order to sell DSPs. So people that like to tinker will:

1. Purchase another piece of equipment = more profit.
2. Feel a sense of accomplishment when spending all the time and effort it takes to tune their non SQ unit. 

I will admit that getting a system to stage properly does take some tuning skills, however, with better equipment much less tuning is required. You can disagree with me if you so choose. I'll let my system be the proof.


----------



## grinkeeper

I think that Boland Audio amps look amazing and will make a lot of waves.

Boland Audio

This is a new company that was started by Bernie Boland the man that designed the legendary amps for Orion, PPI and Rockford. 

He has started building amps with modern high end parts an designs with the quality of amps from the golden era of car audio. I think these are going to make major waves and have a huge following. Its like brand new old school over built quality with modern reliability & warranty.

Has any tried these amps yet?


----------



## High Resolution Audio

grinkeeper said:


> I think that Boland Audio amps look amazing and will make a lot of waves.
> 
> Boland Audio
> 
> This is a new company that was started by Bernie Boland the man that designed the legendary amps for Orion, PPI and Rockford.
> 
> He has started building amps with modern high end parts an designs with the quality of amps from the golden era of car audio. I think these are going to make major waves and have a huge following. Its like brand new old school over built quality with modern reliability & warranty.
> 
> Has any tried these amps yet?


Those look awesome and I bet are SQ amps. It even says so right on it, so it must be true! lol 

All kidding aside, they have all the features I mentioned in a previous post with regards to the qualities of a good SQ amp ( except these are low bias not high bias ) 

They do come with a hefty price tag. But those amps you mentioned he designed were some of the best. 

If I were to purchase a new amp, and had that budget, I would not hesitate to try one out.


----------



## grinkeeper

Definitely one too look out for and they are true red white and blue through an through. 

I really miss the old car audio magazines like Car Audio & Security. I bought that magazine religiously every month . It was great for equipment reviews and shoot outs of big amps and who can forget the installs they documented.

To bad there wasn’t a website that had all the old copies for viewing or even download. Does anyone know


----------



## billw

Actually there is:

Classic Builds

Not every issue, but all the famous installs and a lot more.


----------



## Jheitt142

billw said:


> Actually there is:
> 
> Classic Builds
> 
> Not every issue, but all the famous installs and a lot more.


That link amazing. I'll be bookmarking that. I love those massive graphic eqs 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

High Resolution Audio said:


> YOU MAKE SUCH VALID POINTS!




If you count all the so called "installers" out there - including backyard jack of all trades installers - average it out to installers who actually do know how to install average that out to installers who know how to tune and install

You would be surprised at the % of installers who can install and tune - consider how many so called installers convince there clients to spend big $ on equipment and make a complete hash of it 

Gives equipment the bad rep - not the installer who had to google how to install the equipment...

There is always 2 sides to the coin....

Over here - I would say there are at least 100 installers out of those 100 installers I would honestly say only 5 know how to tune - out of those 5 you won't walk out there shops with dropping an obscene amounts of $$$'s

The real tuners are not shops they DIY individuals that spend days and weeks tuning....

A typical shop tunes while the customer is paying...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## grinkeeper

billw said:


> Actually there is:
> 
> Classic Builds
> 
> Not every issue, but all the famous installs and a lot more.


Big Thanks BILLW, I am reading through them right now, Much appreciated. It really brings back a lot of memories. Some of those installs were very creative, others were very strange. ALL spent a great deal of time and money back then. Good reads


----------



## rton20s

High Resolution Audio said:


> SQ was built into old school units. They took the SQ out of head units in order to sell DSPs. So people that like to tinker will:


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I should stay out of this thread for my own sanity but....

There are no magical headunits, new school or old, that you can just throw into a car and have good sound without a dsp.

Dsp's were not created because manufacturers took some magical "sq fairy dust" out of the head units. They were created because no matter what head unit you run, signal processing is the ONLY way to get the highest level of sound in a car.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I should stay out of this thread for my own sanity but....
> 
> There are no magical headunits, new school or old, that you can just throw into a car and have good sound without a dsp.
> 
> Dsp's were not created because manufacturers took some magical "sq fairy dust" out of the head units. They were created because no matter what head unit you run, signal processing is the ONLY way to get the highest level of sound in a car.


To add to this, the ones who believe that a dsp isn't needed to tune for a horrible room are usually the ones that win by default at smaller comps then go to finals and get their ass handed to them. We all know of one brand that had a rule that none of their competitors were allowed to run a dsp. I heard that one guy had a dsp hidden out of sight and his ride actually sounded really nice. The others might have had decent tonality, but you're not going to win an sq comp with tonality alone. Furthermore, those who tout their system with magical gear as "holier than thou" are setting themselves up for failure. There's no magical equipment. Some gear is better than other gear but more money doesn't always mean more better. And I don't buy into manufacturers taking the sq out of a headunit to sell dsp's.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I should stay out of this thread for my own sanity but....
> 
> There are no magical headunits, new school or old, that you can just throw into a car and have good sound without a dsp.
> 
> Dsp's were not created because manufacturers took some magical "sq fairy dust" out of the head units. They were created because no matter what head unit you run, signal processing is the ONLY way to get the highest level of sound in a car.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

That's it, I'm going to max out my credit card right now to buy the most expensive essque headunit, really expensive amps, and really expensive speakers. That is the only way to get essque right? I'll put the coin I was going to spend on the dsp into the magical headunit. 

Wait, scratch that. I've been taught better by people who know what it takes to have great tonality AND staging


----------



## High Resolution Audio

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I should stay out of this thread for my own sanity but....
> 
> There are no magical headunits, new school or old, that you can just throw into a car and have good sound without a dsp.
> 
> Dsp's were not created because manufacturers took some magical "sq fairy dust" out of the head units. They were created because no matter what head unit you run, signal processing is the ONLY way to get the highest level of sound in a car.


Thank you for clearing that up for me. I must be delusional. 


I would really like to know what a DSP does that other equipment can't that allows one to take one's system to the highest level?


----------



## bnae38

Round 2.

:lurk:


----------



## Babs

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## truckerfte

High Resolution Audio said:


> SQ was built into old school units. They took the SQ out of head units in order to sell DSPs.


So, it that panny in the classifieds old enough to still have the essque in it? 

And what amps and speakers do I have to purchase to pair up with it to create a magical system that won't require DSP level tuning?


Or are there other os units that can be used in this setup....


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

High Resolution Audio said:


> Thank you for clearing that up for me. I must be delusional.
> 
> 
> I would really like to know what a DSP does that other equipment can't that allows one to take one's system to the highest level?


Time alignment and eq. Both absolutely mandatory in a car, even with center seat placement. That is, unless your speakers are all an equal distsnce from your ears. Ie, your midbass are exactly as far away from your ears as your midrange.

Yes, im aware you can do eq in the analog domain, but thats a very limited thing. 10 bands of fully adjustable eq per channel is far better than 30 fixed bands of eq.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Time alignment and eq. Both absolutely mandatory in a car, even with center seat placement. That is, unless your speakers are all an equal distsnce from your ears. Ie, your midbass are exactly as far away from your ears as your midrange.
> 
> Yes, im aware you can do eq in the analog domain, but thats a very limited thing. 10 bands of fully adjustable eq per channel is far better than 30 fixed bands of eq.


Head units have time alignment.
Head units have equalizers. 

So you have not yet stated any reason a DSP is needed.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

My question is, when tuning from the drivers seat what magical headunit will compensate for time alignment and left/right eq? I'm not talking about autotune either. The bulk of us must be missing out. Are these magical old headunits fitted with alien autotune technology that knows how to compensate for seat position and driver placement? Seriously, I'd like to know. I know aliens have way better technology than us primitive humans. All you olskool car audio guys might be able to throw us younger guys a bone on this one. I'm sure they're lurking and having a good laugh as well.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

High Resolution Audio said:


> Head units have time alignment.
> Head units have equalizers.
> 
> So you have not yet stated any reason a DSP is needed.


Individual eq for EACH driver. In my opinion eq OUTSIDE of the pass band is just as important as eq within the pass band. It keeps you from getting smearing around the cross point. Take the p99 for example. It's a great indash solution but it will only get you so far with the common eq spread 20-20k. Say you need a 8db cut at 850hz with a q of 8. You could split the difference by adjusting 800 and 1000, but then you just caused another problem area that wasn't there before. Do you know how many people have a p99 in their dash with a dsp behind it? It's because the p99 got them close but not near where it needed to be for the precision staging AND TONALITY they were wanting.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

High Resolution Audio said:


> Head units have time alignment.
> Head units have equalizers.
> 
> So you have not yet stated any reason a DSP is needed.


Hillbilly SQ hit the nail on the head. There are no headunits with FULLY ADJUSTSBLE eq. The closest would be the P99 or its variants with 31 bands of graphic eq per side.

But, it still doesnt have parametric, which is far more useful. You cant adjust the center frequencies, which is far more useful. And you cant adjust eq per driver, which is far more useful.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

I'll take 6 bands of fully adjustable peq over 31 bands of geq every day of the week and twice on Sunday.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

In addition, with individual driver eq you can nudge one driver with a problem around the crossover point without touching the other driver that either has no problem, or a completely different set of problems. When I start doing the install on my Jeep I'll post rta sweeps. I'll be doing a pretty standard door and sail install. I guarantee the left and right will be a total mess on the "before l/r eq" sweeps.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Exactly my sentiments as well.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Hillbilly SQ hit the nail on the head. There are no headunits with FULLY ADJUSTSBLE eq. The closest would be the P99 or its variants with 31 bands of graphic eq per side.
> 
> But, it still doesnt have parametric, which is far more useful. You cant adjust the center frequencies, which is far more useful. And you cant adjust eq per driver, which is far more useful.


Head units have both graphic EQ and parametric EQ.

You still have not yet stated why a DSP is necessary.


----------



## bnae38

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Individual eq for EACH driver.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

High Resolution Audio said:


> Head units have both graphic EQ and parametric EQ.
> 
> You still have not yet stated why a DSP is necessary.


Yeah we did. More than once. You're just too stuck in the 1990's to realize it.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

bnae38 said:


>


Oops, eq for each INDIVIDUAL driver:blush:


----------



## bnae38

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Oops, eq for each INDIVIDUAL driver:blush:


You're good, meant that wasn't available on any head units.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

I am impressed with how civil this thread has stayed. Guess we're all pretty laid back in real life. Stubborn, but laid back


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

bnae38 said:


> You're good, meant that wasn't available on any head units.


 I was referring to the dsp's that we seem to be wasting our money on, but you knew that


----------



## bnae38

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I am impressed with how civil this thread has stayed. Guess we're all pretty laid back in real life. Stubborn, but laid back


Lol, I agree.

I'm in for another few days of misery, tirelessly tuning on my dsp this weekend.

Stubborn is the word....


HRA, you should really pick one up and join in on the fun


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

I feel like this thread has run its course. Time to close it before it turns into a poo flinging contest.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

High Resolution Audio said:


> Head units have both graphic EQ and parametric EQ.
> 
> You still have not yet stated why a DSP is necessary.


Name a headunit with FULLY ADJUSTABLE parametric eq. That can be centered to any frequency with any q. And can be set on a per driver basis.

And keep in mind, any head unit with dsp and/or time alignment capabilities IS a dsp.


----------



## bnae38

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I feel like this thread has run its course. Time to close it before it turns into a poo flinging contest.



Hahaha, 18 pages and not much to show for it...

I think I'm gonna agree.


----------



## ErinH

High Resolution Audio said:


> Thank you for clearing that up for me. I must be delusional.
> 
> 
> I would really like to know what a DSP does that other equipment can't that allows one to take one's system to the highest level?



Dude...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/315105-alpine-f-1-status.html

That's your thread. Selling your gear. Which includes an outboard DSP. So you tell us, why did you run (and still currently have installed) the h990 if by your own words you should be fine with a "SQ headunit" only? You're continually contradicting yourself here, Gerald. I don't understand where you're even coming from anymore.


----------



## truckerfte

Oops


----------



## Jheitt142

I'm no expert, or even an amateur expert but I do know one thing. Axis angle makes a huge difference. It's really hard to do a regular install and have each matching set of drivers at the same distance and same angle. And because if that you need all sorts of Eq and level wizardry to make them act the same when they reach your ear holes. 

That's why you need a DSP. You simply can't get that kind of power from a head unit alone. That I know of anyway. A p99 gets you close but for the $12-1500 it costs me to get one I'll take a DSP and have way more power for half the moolah 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

street.terror said:


> Axis angle makes a huge difference.


only if your playing past a drivers beaming point.. otherwise its equal


----------



## High Resolution Audio

ErinH said:


> Dude...
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/315105-alpine-f-1-status.html
> 
> That's your thread. Selling your gear. Which includes an outboard DSP. So you tell us, why did you run (and still currently have installed) the h990 if by your own words you should be fine with a "SQ headunit" only? You're continually contradicting yourself here, Gerald. I don't understand where you're even coming from anymore.


I am in the process of removing my outboard DSP. It will happen in the next few days. I just ordered AudioQuest RCA cables in order to install my "SQ Head Unit" They just came today.

I installed the DSP in the first place because everyone I've talked with that is into car audio said that I needed one in order to compete and take the system to the next level. I also read all about the "Magic Bus" and purchased the unit before I had an opportunity to fly out to California and audition the "Magic Bus".

My experience with it has lead me to realize that this was not the case at all. 

With the gear and install that I have, the outboard DSP did not add anything to my system. As a matter of fact, the sound I got out of it was very close to my "SQ Head Unit" but fell a tiny fraction short. 

All my improvements I am making to my system at this point in time are very slight ones. 

I hope this clears up any questions.


----------



## bnae38

High Resolution Audio said:


> I am in the process of removing my outboard DSP. It will happen in the next few days. I just ordered AudioQuest RCA cables in order to install my "SQ Head Unit" They just came today.
> 
> I installed the DSP in the first place because everyone I've talked with that is into car audio said that I needed one in order to compete and take the system to the next level. I also read all about the "Magic Bus" and purchased the unit before I had an opportunity to fly out to California and audition the "Magic Bus".
> 
> My experience with it has lead me to realize that this was not the case at all.
> 
> With the gear and install that I have, the outboard DSP did not add anything to my system. As a matter of fact, the sound I got out of it was very close to my "SQ Head Unit" but fell a tiny fraction short.
> 
> All my improvements I am making to my system at this point in time are very slight ones.
> 
> I hope this clears up any questions.



If it works for you, then sweet. Beauty in simplicity.

Tweaking, and tweaking, and more tweaking is frustrating but I enjoy the challenge. Needless to say I am far far from the "magic" tune at this point using my gear. But i have a stubborn ass attitude going for me


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Does your sq head unit have fully adjustable parametric eq?


----------



## High Resolution Audio

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Name a headunit with FULLY ADJUSTABLE parametric eq. That can be centered to any frequency with any q. And can be set on a per driver basis.
> 
> And keep in mind, any head unit with dsp and/or time alignment capabilities IS a dsp.


Now you are contradicting yourself. You have stated that there is no magical Head Unit you can just throw in a car and have good sound.

Then you are now changing your tune ( no pun intended ) and stating that head units with time alignments adjustments have a built in DSP. 

Nowhere in their advertising or literature or on the box or in the manual states that these magic head units have a built in DSP. 

Backtrack, backtrack, backtrack.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Does your sq head unit have fully adjustable parametric eq?


I don't need it with my install and equipment. 

Like I've been trying to explain to you all along....but you are too stubborn to listen.

I think you should change your Forum Name to:

"TOOSTUBBORN2LISTEN"


----------



## ErinH

High Resolution Audio said:


> I am in the process of removing my outboard DSP. It will happen in the next few days. I just ordered AudioQuest RCA cables in order to install my "SQ Head Unit" They just came today.
> 
> I installed the DSP in the first place because everyone I've talked with that is into car audio said that I needed one in order to compete and take the system to the next level. I also read all about the "Magic Bus" and purchased the unit before I had an opportunity to fly out to California and audition the "Magic Bus".
> 
> My experience with it has lead me to realize that this was not the case at all.
> 
> With the gear and install that I have, the outboard DSP did not add anything to my system. As a matter of fact, the sound I got out of it was very close to my "SQ Head Unit" but fell a tiny fraction short.
> 
> All my improvements I am making to my system at this point in time are very slight ones.
> 
> I hope this clears up any questions.



Drivers seat or center seat? 

If the DSP didn't provide better sound from the drivers seat then something isn't right.


----------



## bnae38

Round3

Ding.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

ErinH said:


> Drivers seat or center seat?
> 
> If the DSP didn't provide better sound from the drivers seat then something isn't right.


It sounds better in both the Center Seat as well as the Driver's seat with the new old school magic SQ head unit.

But if I have to do a little L/R EQ I bought a set of these:


----------



## LumbermanSVO

High Resolution Audio said:


> It sounds better in both the Center Seat as well as the Driver's seat with the new old school magic SQ head unit.
> 
> But if I have to do a little L/R EQ I bought a set of these:


That reminds me of changing jets in a carburetor...


----------



## claydo

High Resolution Audio said:


> Now you are contradicting yourself. You have stated that there is no magical Head Unit you can just throw in a car and have good sound.
> 
> Then you are now changing your tune ( no pun intended ) and stating that head units with time alignments adjustments have a built in DSP.
> 
> Nowhere in their advertising or literature or on the box or in the manual states that these magic head units have a built in DSP.
> 
> Backtrack, backtrack, backtrack.


Dsp = digital sound processor, a device that manipulates a digital signal, typically offering crossover control, eq, and time allignment. Whether performed in the head unit, or an external stand alone piece, it is still a dsp........


----------



## SkizeR

claydo said:


> Dsp = digital signal processor, a device that manipulates a digital signal, typically offering crossover control, eq, and time allignment. Whether performed in the head unit, or an external stand alone piece, it is still a dsp........


fixed


----------



## ChrisB

LumbermanSVO said:


> That reminds me of changing jets in a carburetor...


I prefer electronic fuel injection and being able to tune the car's ECU with a laptop.


----------



## claydo

SkizeR said:


> fixed


Doh! Yes sir you are correct.....lmao. Rattled that off a lil quick....thanks.


----------



## LumbermanSVO

ChrisB said:


> I prefer electronic fuel injection and being able to tune the car's ECU with a laptop.


Seriously, once you actually learn learn how to read the measurements, and what to adjust, it's so much better than a carb.

But if you are still tuning your stereo with an Audio Control RTA, then a carb is probably still right up your alley. But I'll take EFI and DSP any day.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

High Resolution Audio said:


> I don't need it with my install and equipment.
> 
> Like I've been trying to explain to you all along....but you are too stubborn to listen.
> 
> I think you should change your Forum Name to:
> 
> "TOOSTUBBORN2LISTEN"


So lets get this straight.

Your saying you have no room modes in your van that cause frequency response annomalies. Youve somehow managed to tame all response anomalies with drivers and install.

Even if that were true in the center seat (which is a stretch) its not true from the drivers seat. And if its true from the drivers seat, then its not true from the center. And nothing you can say over the internet will make people believe it to be true. 

To even start to believe it, you would need to post measurements. Start from the center seat, and post a sweep with all speakers playing.

Then from the drivers seat, with all the drivers playing. Then with just the left. Then with just the right.

I know, i know, you listen with your ears. But those measurements just might show you how much your ears are missing.


----------



## Jheitt142

SkizeR said:


> only if your playing past a drivers beaming point.. otherwise its equal


I don't understand what's going on here but I've spent enough time lurking to take your word for it ha! 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

street.terror said:


> I don't understand what's going on here but I've spent enough time lurking to take your word for it ha!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Basically aiming doesnt matter below where the speaker starts beaming. This is a chart showing the beaming points of different sizes of speakers.


----------



## Jheitt142

That much I got I just don't know what the indicated formula is across the top. I assume the left column is driver diameter and the top is angle I just don't get what angle. I've already save the pic for future reference 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut

Hillbilly SQ said:


> To add to this, the ones who believe that a dsp isn't needed to tune for a horrible room are usually the ones that win by default at smaller comps then go to finals and get their ass handed to them.


I figured that was the case, but those in denial will stay in denial no matter what we say. Like I said before, I would love to see the score of HRA's trucks at a 3X event, State finals or Finals, i.e. compete with the best cars and be judged by the best judges. Even more so, if he is just using high end equipment and minimal to no dsp.


----------



## BigAl205

I guess I wasted my money on a DSP when I should have just bought a bread truck instead


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

BigAl205 said:


> I guess I wasted my money on a DSP when I should have just bought a bread truck instead


YOU WIN:laugh:

And the pic on the far right of the beaming chart kinda looks like Tweety Bird


----------



## captainobvious

It is impossible to get the same response from a center seat as it is the drivers seat simultaneously. You will have differences in timing, phase and frequency response in both seats. It's even more ridiculous to think that you can do it without dsp. You require DSP to correct timing and response issues relative to the particular listening position. If a vehicle sounded better in a center and a drivers seat _without_ DSP then it did with the dsp, then you have one of 2 scenarios...Either the dsp is damaged, or it was not tuned properly. The dsp provides more tools for correction. Of course, dsp in the hands of someone who doesn't understand yet how to properly utilize it can absolutely make a system sound worse by creating more problems than it is fixing.

I think we need to highlight what Claydo posted. I'm seeing an argument here about DSP vs head units. If you are using a head unit with time alignment, crossovers and EQ, you are using signal processing! Whether that is built in to a head unit or in a stand alone device- it's still signal processing. Some head units have processing, some don't. Some have much better processing than others. But none that I am aware of have anywhere near the capabilities of a solid stand alone dsp.

And yes, it is very difficult to make opinions on something like DSP by basing it on home audio listening impressions. The listening "rooms" are vastly different and the need for corrections are far more necessary in the car environment.


----------



## captainobvious

High Resolution Audio said:


> Then I purchased Definitive Technology BP-30's. $1500 a pair in 1999 money. I was blown away by how clear they sounded and when I thought I would hook them up and "tune" them with the 31 band, I became quite shocked. My findings were, that no matter what I did with the 31 band I could not get them to sound better than when the EQ was flat. *That opened up my eyes to the fact that if one does invest in higher quality gear, then less and less tuning will be needed. I still subscribe to that philosophy today.*


The car and home listening environments are completely different. Many epiphanies you may have in listening in the home will not translate so smoothly to the car.


----------



## sqnut

captainobvious said:


> And yes, it is very difficult to make opinions on something like DSP by basing it on home audio listening impressions. The listening "rooms" are vastly different and the need for corrections are far more necessary in the car environment.


^^^ I find that a lot of the folks who come to car audio as 2ch audiophiles, view dsp as destroying the 'purity' of recording. While in a car you're correcting for the room, not the recording. If someone has Andy's graphs of a speaker measured 1" from the cone and at ear level, then the nay sayers may start to understand the desperate need for a dsp.


----------



## Babs

I'll bet anyone here they can send me $400 and I'll ship em CONUS a Helix DSP.. and they're going to thank me later.  Applying even as little as 2-5 predicted parametric or graphic cuts, to each driver individually to make left=right=flat and smooth, will dramatically improve the whole tune. The same can be said for being able to match crossover slopes acoustically, not just electrically per side. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## High Resolution Audio

captainobvious said:


> It is impossible to get the same response from a center seat as it is the drivers seat simultaneously. You will have differences in timing, phase and frequency response in both seats. It's even more ridiculous to think that you can do it without dsp. You require DSP to correct timing and response issues relative to the particular listening position. If a vehicle sounded better in a center and a drivers seat _without_ DSP then it did with the dsp, then you have one of 2 scenarios...Either the dsp is damaged, or it was not tuned properly. The dsp provides more tools for correction. Of course, dsp in the hands of someone who doesn't understand yet how to properly utilize it can absolutely make a system sound worse by creating more problems than it is fixing.
> 
> I think we need to highlight what Claydo posted. I'm seeing an argument here about DSP vs head units. If you are using a head unit with time alignment, crossovers and EQ, you are using signal processing! Whether that is built in to a head unit or in a stand alone device- it's still signal processing. Some head units have processing, some don't. Some have much better processing than others. But none that I am aware of have anywhere near the capabilities of a solid stand alone dsp.
> 
> And yes, it is very difficult to make opinions on something like DSP by basing it on home audio listening impressions. The listening "rooms" are vastly different and the need for corrections are far more necessary in the car environment.


Just to clear things up a bit, I didn't say that the Magic Old School SQ sounded better from both the both center seat and the drivers seat without first making adjustments after changing seat positions. Time alignment is built in to my magic head unit.

My main point is that it sounds better both seats with the Magic SQ old school head unit than it does in comparison with the full blown DSP.

TOOSTUBBORN2LISTEN was arguing that there was no head units new or old school that could be installed without a DSP and sound good. 

It is my point that old school head unit have time alignment, graphic EQ, parametric EQ, and adjustable crossovers. 

Therefore it is my argument that there is no need for a DSP unit if one picks out the right gear. Especially drivers. Drivers that were designed to produce flat Frequency Response need less tuning adjustments. 

People are now going to chime in about needing tons and tons of EQ in order to correct for the room. With the right head unit, driver selection, and the right install, in the right "room" less tuning will be required. 

This is all my opinion, and comes from my experiences. So we all live different lives and have different perspectives. 

I'm sure that a lot of you will not agree that my perspective is not correct because it is different than most. That's ok, I'm sure not many of you have a separate amplifier for each driver either. But hey to each their own.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

captainobvious said:


> The car and home listening environments are completely different. Many epiphanies you may have in listening in the home will not translate so smoothly to the car.


I just used the home reference as an example. But I feel exactly the same way in regards to vehicle audio.

In my experience, I have found that careful selection of the right ( but not necessarily expensive ) equipment, coupled with proper install, can yield better sound with far less tuning required.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

sqnut said:


> I figured that was the case, but those in denial will stay in denial no matter what we say. Like I said before, I would love to see the score of HRA's trucks at a 3X event, State finals or Finals, i.e. compete with the best cars and be judged by the best judges. Even more so, if he is just using high end equipment and minimal to no dsp.


What do you consider a DSP?

A head unit that has time alignment, both graphic and parametric EQ, 3-way crossover capabilities. Would you consider that a DSP or "built - in dsp?"

Because I do not consider it a DSP. I consider it a SQ head unit.

I know now, that during my last competition, my stage was rainbow shaped, it lacked depth and width, I had imaging and focus issues. The tonality was spot on ( I was told ). My stage height was above the glass. And the bass was muddy, and the sub-woofers were turned off. Not to mention the right tweeter was 2DB too hot.

I'm almost positive that if I were to enter the vehicle in another competition, after correcting for most of those issues, my system would score higher than last time.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> So lets get this straight.
> 
> Your saying you have no room modes in your van that cause frequency response annomalies. Youve somehow managed to tame all response anomalies with drivers and install.
> 
> Even if that were true in the center seat (which is a stretch) its not true from the drivers seat. And if its true from the drivers seat, then its not true from the center. And nothing you can say over the internet will make people believe it to be true.
> 
> To even start to believe it, you would need to post measurements. Start from the center seat, and post a sweep with all speakers playing.
> 
> Then from the drivers seat, with all the drivers playing. Then with just the left. Then with just the right.
> 
> I know, i know, you listen with your ears. But those measurements just might show you how much your ears are missing.


No.....what I am saying is there are less room modes in my van than a normal vehicle that have to be corrected. Of course there still are some, it would be impossible to get rid of all room modes. 

The stage from the center seat sounds amazing. 

The stage from the drivers seat with just time alignment sounds close to amazing with no other adjustments other than a balance adjustment.


----------



## seafish

High Resolution Audio said:


> What do you consider a DSP?
> 
> A head unit that has time alignment, both graphic and parametric EQ, 3-way crossover capabilities. Would you consider that a DSP or "built - in dsp?"
> 
> Because I do not consider it a DSP. I consider it a SQ head unit.


What you consider to be true and what actually is true are TWO different things and are causing ALL sorts of confusion, both in your head and IN THIS THREAD...

"DSP", as others have already pointed out is SIMPLY "Digital Signal Processing". If your "magic, old school HU has it internally, then you are using "a DSP" and cannot claim otherwise....claiming otherwise shows a naivete or ignorance that is not conducive to a decent or even fair discussion of facts.


----------



## Elektra

I can't understand why most of you guys can't just accept that HRA derives equal pleasure without a full DSP and with the small amounts of tuning his HU provides is good enough for him...

If it makes his foot tap while driving then it's mission accomplished - don't you think? 

If a few clicks on the balance centers his stage in different locations then that sorts his needs out then so be it...

A lot of guys are equally happy with a set of 6x9's in the rear and a coaxial in the front off a cheap HU...

Why the huge fuss? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bertholomey

High Resolution Audio said:


> I know now, that during my last competition, my stage was rainbow shaped, it lacked depth and width, I had imaging and focus issues. The tonality was spot on ( I was told ). My stage height was above the glass. And the bass was muddy, and the sub-woofers were turned off. Not to mention the right tweeter was 2DB too hot.
> 
> I'm almost positive that if I were to enter the vehicle in another competition, after correcting for most of those issues, my system would score higher than last time.


And this is what I heard when I had a demo.....so it would be cool to get another extended demo (with my music) to hear the improvements.


----------



## SkizeR

Why do you keep saying "magic" head unit? Its starting to creep me out

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

High Resolution Audio said:


> What do you consider a DSP?
> 
> A head unit that has time alignment, both graphic and parametric EQ, 3-way crossover capabilities. Would you consider that a DSP or "built - in dsp?"
> 
> Because I do not consider it a DSP. I consider it a SQ head unit.
> 
> I know now, that during my last competition, my stage was rainbow shaped, it lacked depth and width, I had imaging and focus issues. The tonality was spot on ( I was told ). My stage height was above the glass. And the bass was muddy, and the sub-woofers were turned off. Not to mention the right tweeter was 2DB too hot.
> 
> I'm almost positive that if I were to enter the vehicle in another competition, after correcting for most of those issues, my system would score higher than last time.


It doesn't matter what you consider it. It's still signal processing whether it's done in the head unit or a stand alone unit. It's still digital signal processing. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

SkizeR said:


> Why do you keep saying "magic" head unit? Its starting to creep me out
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk





TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I should stay out of this thread for my own sanity but....
> 
> There are no magical headunits, new school or old, that you can just throw into a car and have good sound without a dsp.
> 
> Dsp's were not created because manufacturers took some magical "sq fairy dust" out of the head units. They were created because no matter what head unit you run, signal processing is the ONLY way to get the highest level of sound in a car.



I didn't he^^^^^^ did!


----------



## ChrisB

SkizeR said:


> Why do you keep saying "magic" head unit? Its starting to creep me out
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


His rhetoric is starting to sound like a pipe dream. 

According to him, car audio is so simple. All one needs is speakers that will play flat in any environment (not going to happen) and a magic head unit to achieve the ess que one desires. This all comes at a high cost that is out of reach to the common, working class man! All of us cheap peons can't afford such magical gear therefore we are beneath him and our opinions are invalid. 

At least, that is my take on it, but I've been wrong before...


----------



## High Resolution Audio

SkizeR said:


> It doesn't matter what you consider it. It's still signal processing whether it's done in the head unit or a stand alone unit. It's still digital signal processing.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


TOOSTUBBORN stated that no (new or old school) head unit has enough processing capabilities to sound good. Without an outboard DSP.

And HILLBILLY concurred.


----------



## SkizeR

High Resolution Audio said:


> TOOSTUBBORN stated that no (new or old school) head unit has enough processing capabilities to sound good. Without an outboard DSP.
> 
> And HILLBILLY concurred.


P99 is the only one that has a shot, but still gets smoked by a standalone processor. Your h990 was pretty limited. I'd say your better off upgrading to something like a helix.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

ChrisB said:


> His rhetoric is starting to sound like a pipe dream.
> 
> According to him, car audio is so simple. All one needs is speakers that will play flat in any environment (not going to happen) and a magic head unit to achieve the ess que one desires. This all comes at a high cost that is out of reach to the common, working class man! All of us cheap peons can't afford such magical gear therefore we are beneath him and our opinions are invalid.
> 
> At least, that is my take on it, but I've been wrong before...


I have repeated myself over and over that cost is not necessarily directly related to SQ. How many times do I have to reiterate?


----------



## High Resolution Audio

SkizeR said:


> P99 is the only one that has a shot, but still gets smoked by a standalone processor. Your h990 was pretty limited. I'd say your better off upgrading to something like a helix.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


And my opinion is that using an outboard DSP is not going to make an improvement in my specific installation.


----------



## SkizeR

High Resolution Audio said:


> And my opinion is that using an outboard DSP is not going to make an improvement in my specific installation.


I'm willing to bet that's 110% false

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

Even being able to make proper acoustic crossovers with a dsp is one simple reason alone why it would be better. All of these little differences make a difference. Isn't that what you were after?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## chefhow

What I find amazing is you have a box van with what I can see if full of hard reflective surfaces and you don't have a need for a DSP. 
What is this magical beast of a head unit you are referring too, I'd like to find one myself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chefhow

High Resolution Audio said:


> What do you consider a DSP?
> 
> A head unit that has time alignment, both graphic and parametric EQ, 3-way crossover capabilities. Would you consider that a DSP or "built - in dsp?"
> 
> Because I do not consider it a DSP. I consider it a SQ head unit.




That is "Digital Sound Processing" or DSP


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

SkizeR said:


> Even being able to make proper acoustic crossovers with a dsp is one simple reason alone why it would be better. All of these little differences make a difference. Isn't that what you were after?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk



I would be willing to put a wager. 

Helix DSP Pro Mark II plus $500

I'll tune my system without an outboard DSP we will have it evaluated and judged blindly.

You install a Helix DSP Pro Mark II and tune the system.

We have it evaluated and judged blindly. 

If you win, I'll buy the helix and pay you $500

If I win, you will buy me the helix and an additional $500.


----------



## lizardking

I might just buy a bread truck so I can listen to music.


----------



## SkizeR

High Resolution Audio said:


> I would be willing to put a wager.
> 
> Helix DSP Pro Mark II plus $500
> 
> I'll tune my system without on outboard DSP we will have it evaluated and judged blindly.
> 
> You install a Helix DSP Pro Mark II and tune the system.
> 
> We have it evaluated and judged blindly.
> 
> If you win, I'll buy the helix and pay you $500
> 
> If I win, you will buy me the helix and an additional $500.


I'll take that bet. How do we do this

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

chefhow said:


> That is "Digital Sound Processing" or DSP
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not according to TOOSTUBBORN and HILLBILLY.

But they have chosen to remain silent at this point.


----------



## lizardking

chefhow said:


> That is "Digital Sound Processing" or DSP
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's magic...apparently


----------



## High Resolution Audio

lizardking said:


> I might just buy a bread truck so I can listen to music.


White or Wheat?


----------



## ChrisB

chefhow said:


> What I find amazing is you have a box van with what I can see if full of hard reflective surfaces and you don't have a need for a DSP.
> What is this magical beast of a head unit you are referring too, I'd like to find one myself.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hell, I'll take the speakers that play flat under all conditions in any vehicle.  Although I will admit that flat sounds like total @ss, it would be much easier to mold and shape flat responding speakers to my preferred EQ curve.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

ChrisB said:


> Hell, I'll take the speakers that play flat under all conditions in any vehicle.  Although I will admit that flat sounds like total @ss, it would be much easier to mold and shape flat responding speakers to my preferred EQ curve.


That can be done by purchasing the correct head unit with a near perfect curve already dialed in.


----------



## chefhow

High Resolution Audio said:


> I would be willing to put a wager.
> 
> Helix DSP Pro Mark II plus $500
> 
> I'll tune my system without an outboard DSP we will have it evaluated and judged blindly.
> 
> You install a Helix DSP Pro Mark II and tune the system.
> 
> We have it evaluated and judged blindly.
> 
> If you win, I'll buy the helix and pay you $500
> 
> If I win, you will buy me the helix and an additional $500.




Why does it have to be the Helix? Can it be a Rane? A DBX? A TwK? There are MANY more DSP's out there than the new Helix.

How do you judge a box van vs a car blind? It's a dead give away what you're getting into before you sit down. I have no problem with the "contest" but it's far from a blind competition. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## claydo

SkizeR said:


> I'll take that bet. How do we do this
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Dun, dun, dun.......this would be an awesome scene to play out in n.c.! Lol, just sayin.....I would love listening to both setups, while not the most competent set of ears in that will be there, I'm pretty sure there will be a trained judge in attendance for the official calling. Gerald, your head unit contains a dsp chip from the statements you've made, so in reality it would just be a Hra vs SkizeR tune off, lol, cept SkizeR would have the more flexible tool......aaand, of course if it all came together, the man that hosts the show would have to weigh in on whether it would be a welcome challenge, or a distraction to his wonderful event.......


----------



## SkizeR

chefhow said:


> Why does it have to be the Helix? Can it be a Rane? A DBX? A TwK? There are MANY more DSP's out there than the new Helix.
> 
> How do you judge a box van vs a car blind? It's a dead give away what you're getting into before you sit down. I have no problem with the "contest" but it's far from a blind competition.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think he's saying his truck with and without a processor. Not a car with a processor vs his truck with whatevet

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## claydo

chefhow said:


> Why does it have to be the Helix? Can it be a Rane? A DBX? A TwK? There are MANY more DSP's out there than the new Helix.
> 
> How do you judge a box van vs a car blind? It's a dead give away what you're getting into before you sit down. I have no problem with the "contest" but it's far from a blind competition.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I believe he offered blind tests in his vehicle.....head unit dsp tuned by himself vs outboard dsp tuned by nick in the truck......sounds like fun!


----------



## ErinH

High Resolution Audio said:


> Just to clear things up a bit, I didn't say that the Magic Old School SQ sounded better from both the both center seat and the drivers seat without first making adjustments after changing seat positions. Time alignment is built in to my magic head unit.


You keep calling your headunit "magic" (regardless of who said it first). That sounds like you're stealing the nomenclature from Jon Whitledge's magic bus, which I know you do not want to do (especially since you have said numerous times that you believe your Time Machine sounds better than the Magic Bus). You have your "Time Machine" which you try to market as Jon Whitledge does his "Magic Bus" so I suggest you refrain from calling anything in your car "magic" as it might be self-defeating in your promotion efforts. Just my input on that.





High Resolution Audio said:


> My main point is that it sounds better both seats with the Magic SQ old school head unit than it does in comparison with the full blown DSP.


That may be true. But unless you're using a poor DSP, then I can unequivocally guarantee you the potential for your car to sound better with a more feature-rich DSP (parametric eq, variable phase, etc) than with a headunit like the ones I assume you're referencing is absolutely there. Whether or not you want to realize those improvements is totally your prerogative. Plenty of folks don't want to spend the money or deal with the complexity of understanding and implementing the tools of some of the stand-alone DSPs we have available to us. But the notion that adding a powerful DSP can only degrade your system is an uninformed one. 





High Resolution Audio said:


> TOOSTUBBORN2LISTEN was arguing that there was no head units new or old school that could be installed without a DSP and sound good.


I don't think he said that. I think he said the DSP built-in to headunits is sub-par from the current external DSPs we have available to us. And that's true. But, again, how you use it is what will determine if you have better results with or without it. 




High Resolution Audio said:


> It is my point that old school head unit have time alignment, graphic EQ, parametric EQ, and adjustable crossovers.


Indeed. But see my previous comment. 




High Resolution Audio said:


> Therefore it is my argument that there is no need for a DSP unit if one picks out the right gear. Especially drivers. Drivers that were designed to produce flat Frequency Response need less tuning adjustments.


"Need" is a relative term. I don't "need" a 0-radius lawnmower but it sure would help me get my yard mowed quicker and allow for better ease of pattern control so I don't get these dang ruts in it. I don't "need" a steak knife to cut my meat but it sure beats a fork. Analogies are endless...

The point is the DSP (Digital Signal Processing) is a very useful tool, as long as you know how to use it. 

Furthermore, you are using DSP in your car. Any electronic manipulation to the signal you apply - ranging from levels to time alignment to EQ to whatever - is using a DSP. How much or how little you use is depends on understanding what you have available and how best to use it. You're using DSP in your car. Plain and simple. 

As for drivers producing flat response and that translating to flat in-car response, allow me to get on my high horse for a second here... 
If there's anyone involved in this conversation that can tell you from experience that you can take an ideal drive unit and put it in the car it will go to crap it's me. I have an entire website dedicated to raw driver measurements. And I've overlaid those measurements against measurements taken from in the car at different locations and shown just how much the car changes the response. Hanatsu did this as well. I don't know a single person who has gone through the trouble of measuring their drivers free-air, putting them in the car, determine what the car does and then goes and buys a speaker that matches the opposite of what the car does in order to net them a flat response (I won't even get in to the debate over 'flat' vs other types of in-car response). No one has done this. No. One. Period. If anyone were to try, it would be moot. 

That IS NOT to say that using a great performing speaker as your basis is a bad idea. In fact, the entire reason I test drivers in a quasi-anechoic state is exactly to separate the crap from the good. There's no sense in using a crappy drive unit (especially without some really good P-EQ) and expecting great results. But there are still caveats. As I said, a great performing driver is still going to get wrecked in the car... but at least you know where the 'crap response' is borne from (the car). That makes it a lot easier to tune your vehicle's sound system.

Outside of the EQ portion of a DSP you have one of the most critical aspects: proper crossover. And not just slope, but the phase rotation. All this effects the soundstage. You can have a great tonality but a crappy soundstage. I've heard plenty of cars without DSP that sounded tonally pleasing. But I've heard maybe 3 cars that hit a home-run when it comes to soundstage and tonality. You can thank phase/time for this. When I say phase I'm not talking about polarity (0/180 degrees). 





High Resolution Audio said:


> People are now going to chime in about needing tons and tons of EQ in order to correct for the room. With the right head unit, driver selection, and the right install, in the right "room" less tuning will be required.


I don't disagree with this at all. But the reasons for may differ from yours... See my above comment. 




High Resolution Audio said:


> This is all my opinion, and comes from my experiences. So we all live different lives and have different perspectives.


For sure. But some of us have more experience with more systems than you so maybe we aren't wrong...




High Resolution Audio said:


> I'm sure that a lot of you will not agree that my perspective is not correct because it is different than most. That's ok, I'm sure not many of you have a separate amplifier for each driver either. But hey to each their own.


I don't think your perspective is wrong. I just think it's shortsighted based on your experience with only your car. A lot of us have demoed well in to 100 cars in the past few years and helped tune many of them, so we've got a pretty deep bucket of experience with both listening and tuning to draw from. I've seen your posts from your build log, etc and the attitude you've presented in this thread is one of "I know more than you all" but your posts from even less than a year ago contradict that notion. Even a couple months ago you told people the new IASCA disc was perfectly spaced from Left to Right and when others tried to tell you some of the placement was skewed to the right you didn't accept them and said again that it was perfect. You did finally relent. See here.



pocket5s said:


> Chef and Erin are correct. The positions mentioned are off to the right. This was verified by the judges and measured in software.
> 
> The 7 drum track was not crowded on the left, however that recording was also flawed because far right had some left channel information. Same for far left as I recall. That can also be verified in software.





High Resolution Audio said:


> I don't know who did the testing and retesting, but I would have to argue those test results were flawed.
> 
> My educated guess for flawed testing is due to the fact that the testing was probably done from the drivers seat which obviously is not in the perfect center position of the vehicle nor equidistant from all drivers which is going to throw results off.
> 
> The different widths of vehicles and aspect ratio of drivers seat to speaker width/distance is going to vary from vehicle to vehicle.
> 
> My system is a reference quality system. My listening position is in the very center of the vehicle in the perfect triangle centered between all drivers within a 1/16" tolerance.
> 
> I can attest that the recording of the positioning track on the new IASCA CD is flawless.
> 
> Anyone that gets different results is because the measurements were done from a position that is non centered.
> 
> Closing statement. The recording of the new IASCA CD positioning track is perfect.


Then you came to the realization you were indeed wrong, even though you were so vehemently telling others they were wrong.



High Resolution Audio said:


> I didn't notice that the images were shifted right, because first time round, I was so FOCUSED on even SPACING ( since the old tracks were spaced so unevenly).









Look, I get wanting to have the notoriety for having a golden-ear or having the best sounding car on the block. Some people need that. I used to but my focus has shifted toward my family so the whole competition aspect of this hobby is in my rear-view. At this point I'm just trying to share my experiences and help people and enjoy my ride using what I've learned over the years. In my opinion, you're battling against people who are (ultimately) trying to help you understand that a lot of what you say is contradictory (the whole DSP terminology junk) and based on misunderstanding or misapplication. I believe that even the competition you referenced in this thread a few times was competed in with a tune from someone else, and based on your previous posts I can only surmise that you just don't have a lot of experience with really using the DSP to your full advantage. That being the case, it makes sense that you don't welcome the use of a DSP to help improve your system. But as with the quotes above regarding the IASCA disc, maybe you're just missing something here. Maybe it's user-error. Maybe it's a personal thing. I don't know. But I think that if you try to take a step back and review what people are trying to tell you, maybe you'll benefit and have a better sound system. 

I think I've about said all I can. 

- Erin


----------



## High Resolution Audio

chefhow said:


> Why does it have to be the Helix? Can it be a Rane? A DBX? A TwK? There are MANY more DSP's out there than the new Helix.
> 
> How do you judge a box van vs a car blind? It's a dead give away what you're getting into before you sit down. I have no problem with the "contest" but it's far from a blind competition.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


SkizeR is the one who recommended the Helix.

The wager would be tuning the system in my Van. There is no other vehicle involved here.


----------



## chefhow

SkizeR said:


> I think he's saying his truck with and without a processor. Not a car with a processor vs his truck with whatevet
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk




Even better


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

I'm so down for this. Start a new thread

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## seafish

High Resolution Audio said:


> Not according to TOOSTUBBORN and HILLBILLY.
> 
> But they have chosen to remain silent at this point.



Pretty sure that you have chosen to misunderstand what they said...certainly on TSTF's part...both those guys are too smart to insist that a DSP internal to an HU is any differnt differnt then an external DSP, except of course that the external DSP will liekly have even MORE processing capabilities, which CAN be put to good use if wanted or needed.

Please know that I use a DRZ9255 HU with "built-in" DSP that is about as good as it gets for an HU and I will STILL be adding a Helix Pro to even better tune the system and also get additional time delay for rear fill, since I don;t have bread truck, though I wouldn;t mind having one.

All that being said, HRA I do in fact appreciate your persistence and good humor while discussing all this!!!


----------



## seafish

High Resolution Audio said:


> SkizeR is the one who recommended the Helix.
> 
> The wager would be tuning the system in my Van. There is no other vehicle involved here.


What a great idea...I'm in for this... my money's on SkizeR (sorry HRA) !!!!!

Please post a link to the new thread here and then this one can continue to meander between cr*p, cr*ppier and cr*ppiest....LOL


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

High Resolution Audio said:


> Not according to TOOSTUBBORN and HILLBILLY.
> 
> But they have chosen to remain silent at this point.


No, thats incorrect. I did state that doing time alignment and eq with the head unit is dsp. You chose to ignore that post.

You still havent revealed what head unit you are using.


----------



## sqnut

High Resolution Audio said:


> Therefore it is my argument that there is no need for a DSP unit if one picks out the right gear. Especially drivers. Drivers that were designed to produce flat Frequency Response need less tuning adjustments.
> 
> People are now going to chime in about needing tons and tons of EQ in order to correct for the room. With the right head unit, driver selection, and the right install, in the right "room" less tuning will be required.


That is a BS opinion and one rooted in 2ch audiophile mindset. Happy New Year all the same.


----------



## sqnut

High Resolution Audio said:


> I would be willing to put a wager.
> 
> Helix DSP Pro Mark II plus $500
> 
> I'll tune my system without an outboard DSP we will have it evaluated and judged blindly.
> 
> You install a Helix DSP Pro Mark II and tune the system.
> 
> We have it evaluated and judged blindly.
> 
> If you win, I'll buy the helix and pay you $500
> 
> If I win, you will buy me the helix and an additional $500.


If I was Stateside I'd take that bet in flash and you would lose.


----------



## SkizeR

Gerald, make a new thread for it so we dont have to clutter this. or do you want me to make it?


----------



## sqnut

High Resolution Audio said:


> It sounds better in both the Center Seat as well as the Driver's seat with the new old school magic SQ head unit.
> 
> But if I have to do a little L/R EQ I bought a set of these:


Is that an actual setting of the eq in your reverbrant bread box or just a random shot of the dx eq?


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Thank you Erin for your words of wisdom. Reading what you took a long time to compose has made me stop for a moment and think. You do have some valid points, to most of which I agree.

I can say, that overall tonality is my strong point and I have a good ear for setting up a good overall FR curve, my weak point has been getting the stage to image with proper focus and sharpness. 

Moving my right tower about three inches to the right to make it spaced equidistant with the left tower in regards to the cab interior has made a world of difference. (Even though the drivers were spaced the exact distance from the center listening position.

Doing this and then balancing L/R EQ and sitting in the center has shown me what proper imaging and razor sharp focus and a wide deep sound stage is suppose to sound like.

I was shocked to learn that having the drivers not symmetrically mounted in the cab had such a huge impact with regards to above. I was under the assumption that one could easily tune to compensate. Boy was I wrong!

I do admit that I am still constantly learning and I am open to criticism and advice. 

But I have to admit that being a member on this forum has given me knowledge and skills that I couldn't have learned otherwise. 

With that said, it has also cost me a lot for my education. Purchasing a P99 (due to other peoples views ) and returning it, and then purchasing an Alpine F#1 status unit and selling that for a loss has been expensive. But I guess we all have to pay for our education somehow.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

sqnut said:


> Is that an actual setting of the eq in your reverbrant bread box or just a random shot of the dx eq?


Nothing has changed yet in my install. I had hooked up and tested the other equipment temporarily, but haven't yet installed anything. In the next few days, I hope.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

SkizeR said:


> Gerald, make a new thread for it so we dont have to clutter this. or do you want me to make it?


Do you have any suggestion for a name?

New school vs old, for example?

what would be the purpose of the thread?

Non dsp vs dsp?

If it were to be old school vs new, you would have to supply the new school head unit......maybe your p99?

we could go two ways with it.

Does anyone have thoughts or suggestions?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

High Resolution Audio said:


> Do you have any suggestion for a name?
> 
> New school vs old, for example?
> 
> what would be the purpose of the thread?
> 
> Non dsp vs dsp?
> 
> If it were to be old school vs new, you would have to supply the new school head unit......maybe your p99?


Hes wanting a thread for the challenge you suggested. Your head unit with your tune vs a stand alone dsp with his tune. No need to change out your head unit, just zero out the dsp settings in it.


----------



## SkizeR

I'll make the thread


----------



## SkizeR

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...uck-challenge-gerald-vs-nick.html#post4365394


----------



## High Resolution Audio

SkizeR said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...uck-challenge-gerald-vs-nick.html#post4365394


You totally modified the wager and did not discuss with me prior.

You took out the helix unit as part of the wager,

and you also modified the wager by putting my head unit only with or without DSP.

That's not what was proposed to you. My wager was my system with or without DSP.


----------



## SkizeR

Because idk where you got the idea that I have a helix pro mkii..

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

HRA what is your source?

So if I understand this correctly HRA will use his HU and whatever capabilities it has vs a External DSP? 

Is that it? 

So if he uses a HU with a DSP like a Clarion HX-D2 or the likes he can use whatever the HU can do? 

I presume you can't expect him to run a defeat setting with no settings? Or are you? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

SkizeR said:


> Because idk where you got the idea that I have a helix pro mkii..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


That was part of the wager. Put up or shut up! lol

If you wanted to modify the wager/challenge, you should have discussed it with me first.

If you would like to do a new school vs old school challenge for $500 I would be willing.

You bring your P99 and Helix 

put it up against my SQ head unit and analog EQ's


----------



## SkizeR

High Resolution Audio said:


> You bring your P99 and Helix
> 
> put it up against my SQ head unit and analog EQ's


no need to add a p99. just my dsp vs your whatever you use. no other equipment change other than eq


----------



## rton20s

Can anyone tell me who still makes a good SQ amp?


----------



## bnae38

The ones in my sig


----------



## Niebur3

Sinfoni does. Because they are whisper quiet and they don't add anything.

Arc Amps are really nice also.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

rton20s said:


> Can anyone tell me who still makes a good SQ amp?


Boland Audio


----------



## chefhow

High Resolution Audio said:


> Boland Audio




Do you have them in hand to verify that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## thehatedguy

The Steg Masterstroke MSK3000 is a beast at 400x2.


----------



## thehatedguy

Linear Power has some nice amps too.


----------



## Elektra

Brax MX4


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## lizardking

PrecisionPower Phantom = whisper quiet with exceptional SQ.


----------



## Babs

lizardking said:


> PrecisionPower Phantom = whisper quiet with exceptional SQ.



They definitely must be doing something different with that board in the PPI version verses the NVX JAD's. They came from the same board and I imagine the same build location, Nicola I think. I was underwhelmed by the NVX JAD's and noticed improvement immediately when I moved over to PDX's. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## lizardking

I have the PDX amps now myself due to the stacking feature. Can't say they "sound" any different.

Once I discovered REW and the principles of tuning, I realized that the equipment was the last concern that in reality never made a difference for me. Now it's all about what works in the particular install. What fits...what looks good.....etc. Sometimes its cheap gear and sometimes it's not.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

chefhow said:


> Do you have them in hand to verify that?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, I don't.......however I would be willing to bet that the person who was involved with designing legendary PPI amps and Orion amps had made a good product here. 

Especially when reading the mission statement on the company. 

Usually past performance is a good indicator of future.


----------



## captainobvious

SkizeR said:


> Because idk where you got the idea that I have a helix pro mkii..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk




I have one. And a capable rig to tune with


----------



## captainobvious

High Resolution Audio said:


> No, I don't.......however I would be willing to bet that the person who was involved with designing legendary PPI amps and Orion amps had made a good product here.
> 
> Especially when reading the mission statement on the company.
> 
> *Usually past performance is a good indicator of future.*



In an ideal world, yeah. But take a look at brands like PPI and Soundstream and how they've changed over the years from producing top level products to mostly cheap lower tier stuff. Unfortunately, the need for better profit margins sometimes changes the direction and focus of a company. As do market trends and the need for a company to evolve to survive.


----------



## MrGreen83

Zapco Z-400.2LX & Z-150.6LX


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

captainobvious said:


> In an ideal world, yeah. But take a look at brands like PPI and Soundstream and how they've changed over the years from producing top level products to mostly cheap lower tier stuff. Unfortunately, the need for better profit margins sometimes changes the direction and focus of a company. As do market trends and the need for a company to evolve to survive.


The force behind what made PPI and Orion so great was Mr. Boland.

The mission statement of Boland Audio was to maintain the upmost in sound quality, not to mass produce amps in china in order to make profit. 

I understand that companies need to do what they have to to survive an an ever changing economy where supply and demand dictate evolving and changing in order to stay alive. 

There are two ways to be profitable in business. 
1. To be good and sell fewer units with a higher price tag.
2. To be cheap and sell as many units as possible with a lower profit margin.

At Boland Audio, there philosophy is to be good. It comes with a price tag, though. As their amplifiers are very expensive.


----------



## DC/Hertz

This was entertaining. 
A guy that thinks he can hear a 1/10th of a second difference in attack time
A guy that got his but kicked in a comp and praises his expensive amps
Praising Boland who is just as full of crap as Ray Rayfield, hasn't shipped anything, gets 99% of his internals from China. 

Way to much win here.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

DC/Hertz said:


> This was entertaining.
> A guy that thinks he can hear a 1/10th of a second difference in attack time
> A guy that got his but kicked in a comp and praises his expensive amps
> Praising Boland who is just as full of crap as Ray Rayfield, hasn't shipped anything, gets 99% of his internals from China.
> 
> Way to much win here.


Maybe you have inside information. If what you are saying is true, than he is doing a good job at marketing. Because, I would have fallen for it. He pitches a good game.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

​


captainobvious said:


> I have one. And a capable rig to tune with


Capable?? that thing is almost human!


----------



## DC/Hertz

High Resolution Audio said:


> Maybe you have inside information. If what you are saying is true, than he is doing a good job at marketing. Because, I would have fallen for it. He pitches a good game.


The US doesn't make most parts inside amps.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

DC/Hertz said:


> The US doesn't make most parts inside amps.


What about German or Italian amps? Do they use Chinese parts as well?


----------



## DC/Hertz

Yes. There are parts here then there but china is the main manufactor for electronic components. Japan make sure a few also. 

Boland was already questioned, he said most parts come fro me china


----------



## SkizeR

High Resolution Audio said:


> What about German or Italian amps? Do they use Chinese parts as well?


you truly dont believe that all these marketing terms are 100% true, do you?


----------



## captainobvious

AVIDEDTR said:


> Capable?? that thing is almost human!



Hah!

The rig is capable- it's the human operator that is the weak point 

But I'm learning...


----------



## rton20s

bnae38 said:


> The ones in my sig


Maybe I should sell what I have so I can try what you have.


----------



## sqnut

High Resolution Audio said:


> The mission statement of Boland Audio was to maintain the upmost in sound quality, not to mass produce amps in china in order to make profit.
> 
> I understand that companies need to do what they have to to survive an an ever changing economy where supply and demand dictate evolving and changing in order to stay alive.


As someone who has worked with apparel factories in China for the best part of 15 years, yes there are a ton of cheap and crappy sweat shops, but there are also a lot who are at par, or slightly ahead of the premium factories in Europe and N. America. A brand that places its customers and its name front and centre, will work with the good factories.

The best factories in China are about 50% cheaper than the EU or American counterparts, and depending on the product, the manufacturing cost is 30-70% of total product cost. So just because a brand produces in China, doesn't mean the product is crappy, or that 'Made in America' is automatically better. Sorry :shrug:

Quality of manufacturing is about excellence across the variables of materials, people, processes and parameters. What is an amp? A circuit, electronic components and then the components are assembled on the circuit. Specify the components(mostly from China, Taiwan, Korea), specify the process, the tolerance parameters and good people are good across nationalities.


----------



## bnae38

rton20s said:


> Maybe I should sell what I have so I can try what you have.


Or maybe a trade could be arranged


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

I saw an Urban Audio amp one time that looked like the guts came out of a Cracker Jack box. Bet it was quite the essque amp.


----------



## cmusic

sqnut said:


> As someone who has worked with apparel factories in China for the best part of 15 years, yes there are a ton of cheap and crappy sweat shops, but there are also a lot who are at par, or slightly ahead of the premium factories in Europe and N. America. A brand that places its customers and its name front and centre, will work with the good factories.
> 
> The best factories in China are about 50% cheaper than the EU or American counterparts, and depending on the product, the manufacturing cost is 30-70% of total product cost. So just because a brand produces in China, doesn't mean the product is crappy, or that 'Made in America' is automatically better. Sorry :shrug:
> 
> Quality of manufacturing is about excellence across the variables of materials, people, processes and parameters. What is an amp? A circuit, electronic components and then the components are assembled on the circuit. Specify the components(mostly from China, Taiwan, Korea), specify the process, the tolerance parameters and good people are good across nationalities.


Years ago when Kicker was phasing out their ZR and XS line of amps, which were completely built in America, and going to a new line of amps that were made in China, the current VP that ran their competition team told me this: 

They had two full time employees that took completed circuit boards (made in a factory here in America) and mounted them in the heatsinks (which were made in another factory here in America), and put them on a test rack before packing them up for delivery to their dealers. He said the failure rate on the amps was about 15% for the ZR and XS line before they left the factory. The supplier for the circuit boards would replace any defective board they sent to Kicker, but still it slowed up manufacturing deadlines. 

When they went to the new China made amps, the amps were completely assembled in China and shipped to them un-boxed. The same two guys took the China amps and put them on the same test racks before boxing them up for sale. The Chinese made amps had a failure rate of less than 2% and cost the company about 1/3 of the cost of the ZR and XS amps. Some of the lots of amps had no failure rate. The Chinese factory also added between 5-10 amps on top of the total lot order so that Kicker would have replacements ready in case any amps did fail their testing and inspection. Kicker controlled everything about the manufacturing process in China. They picked the parts suppliers and even required training programs for the workers before they started putting the amps together. If any amp sent to them by their Chinese contractor was not up to Kicker's standards, the amp was replaced. 

The VP said he hated going to China for their amp production, but it was necessary for the economic survival of the company.


----------



## fcarpio

Babs said:


> I was underwhelmed by the NVX JAD's and noticed improvement immediately when I moved over to PDX's.


Can you please elaborate? My experience with the JADs has been great.


----------



## backousis

cmusic said:


> Years ago when Kicker was phasing out their ZR and XS line of amps, which were completely built in America, and going to a new line of amps that were made in China, the current VP that ran their competition team told me this:
> 
> They had two full time employees that took completed circuit boards (made in a factory here in America) and mounted them in the heatsinks (which were made in another factory here in America), and put them on a test rack before packing them up for delivery to their dealers. He said the failure rate on the amps was about 15% for the ZR and XS line before they left the factory. The supplier for the circuit boards would replace any defective board they sent to Kicker, but still it slowed up manufacturing deadlines.
> 
> When they went to the new China made amps, the amps were completely assembled in China and shipped to them un-boxed. The same two guys took the China amps and put them on the same test racks before boxing them up for sale. The Chinese made amps had a failure rate of less than 2% and cost the company about 1/3 of the cost of the ZR and XS amps. Some of the lots of amps had no failure rate. The Chinese factory also added between 5-10 amps on top of the total lot order so that Kicker would have replacements ready in case any amps did fail their testing and inspection. Kicker controlled everything about the manufacturing process in China. They picked the parts suppliers and even required training programs for the workers before they started putting the amps together. If any amp sent to them by their Chinese contractor was not up to Kicker's standards, the amp was replaced.
> 
> The VP said he hated going to China for their amp production, but it was necessary for the economic survival of the company.


and what does this prove?


----------



## rton20s

backousis said:


> and what does this prove?


Statements from HRA regarding the (yet to be released) Boland Audio amps imply that an amplifier _ASSEMBLED_ in the U.S. would inherently be more SQ oriented and/or of higher quality than one assembled elsewhere. Namely, China. 

cmusic and sqnut were offering counter points. The same counter points we have seen other manufacturers make as well.


----------



## chefhow

backousis said:


> and what does this prove?


That the quality of every part and piece of electronic equipment made in China isnt complete and utter ****.

Ask some of the guys who go to China to oversee and do random quality checks of products made there, its not all crap.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Its only crap when the company putting their name on it pays for crap.


----------



## backousis

rton20s said:


> Statements from HRA regarding the (yet to be released) Boland Audio amps imply that an amplifier _ASSEMBLED_ in the U.S. would inherently be more SQ oriented and/or of higher quality than one assembled elsewhere. Namely, China.
> 
> cmusic and sqnut were offering counter points. The same counter points we have seen other manufacturers make as well.


my thought is that the chinese amps could be made with cheaper parts and just be checked before sent.
that can explain the low failure % but it doesn,t mean that they are better.
the us ones will sound better and propably last longer


----------



## SkizeR

backousis said:


> the us ones will sound better and propably last longer


what a horribly generalized statement


----------



## backousis

SkizeR said:


> what a horribly generalized statement


i wrote 3 lines and you took only the last one.
as i say it is my thought.
it,s not written in stone, just a guess.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

backousis said:


> my thought is that the chinese amps could be made with cheaper parts and just be checked before sent.
> that can explain the low failure % but it doesn,t mean that they are better.
> the us ones will sound better and propably last longer


The flat out truth is that we are getting what the companies pay for. 

The chinese build houses can build complete crap, or they can build with the best in the business. Its the american business owners and their wallets that decide which of those two things happen.


----------



## SkizeR

backousis said:


> i wrote 3 lines and you took only the last one.
> as i say it is my thought.
> it,s not written in stone, just a guess.


the whole post you made was horribly generalized..


----------



## Jheitt142

backousis said:


> my thought is that the chinese amps could be made with cheaper parts and just be checked before sent.
> that can explain the low failure % but it doesn,t mean that they are better.
> the us ones will sound better and propably last longer


That's not really true though is it. You assemble an amp in china labor costs will be a tiny fraction of what it is to assemble the same thing in the US. That's the difference. 

You think every American production facility is staffed with good Ol boys that care about what they are building? No, the people assembling in a US factory care just as little as the people assembling them in a Chinese factory. 

Assembled in the USA doesn't mean a thing when it comes to mass production. 

Now when it comes to life span. Let's look at a proper high end US assembled amp. You get 2 channels for $1000 or so. That means you're spending 3k to get all your amplification for a basic system. That amp could very well last you 20 years, it could also last 1 if you do something wrong. On the other hand you can buy a 5 channel china amp for $150 that has all the power you will need for the same system. That amp could easily last you 5 years. Now we all change everything yearly anyway so the guy that bought the cheaper amp has all this extra breathing room to buy more power or whatever else he wants down the line while guy number one is sitting there with 3k tied up in amps that he is stuck designing around. Now I get those amps will likely be fantastic but you get what I'm saying. 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## rton20s

backousis said:


> my thought is that the chinese amps could be made with cheaper parts and just be checked before sent.
> that can explain the low failure % but it doesn,t mean that they are better.
> the us ones will sound better and propably last longer


"My thought is that the American amps could be made with cheaper parts and just be checked before sent.
That can explain the low failure % but it doesn't mean that they are better.
The Italian ones will sound better and probably last longer."

Changing the countries of "origin" and your statement is still garbage. The issues you are trying to bring up are geographically agnostic.


----------



## backousis

well everybody is right.
i just miss the old hifonics orion phoenix gold
harman kardon soundsteream etc.
some will agree with me some will say only watts
matter.
whatever anybody thinks.
yes chinese can make good products too if you pay enough.
but the manufacturers go to china because they don't want to 
pay.

and maybe there is another reason.

we (sq guys)are small market now.

the money is at the spl so why should they bother?


----------



## Niloy

I think JL Audio amp is still providing great sound quality. 
Yeah, that's true its price is higher than other's amp. but the quality it provides it's worth it. 
My favorite amp of JL audio is JL XD700/5. One of the best powerful amp of today's market.


----------



## MrGreen83

Niloy said:


> I think JL Audio amp is still providing great sound quality.
> 
> Yeah, that's true its price is higher than other's amp. but the quality it provides it's worth it.
> 
> My favorite amp of JL audio is JL XD700/5. One of the best powerful amp of today's market.




My only beef with those (XDv2 5 channel) amps is the subwoofer channel. What the hell subwoofer are u driving with only 180-300 watts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

MrGreen83 said:


> My only beef with those (XDv2 5 channel) amps is the subwoofer channel. What the hell subwoofer are u driving with only 180-300 watts?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have 4 subs here that work great off that amount of power. For blending purposes it's all you need most of the time.


----------



## KillerBox

Bernie Boland that helped start Orion and PPI is now building amps Class A/B in the USA again.

Boland Audio

According to his website: "All of our products are designed, assembled, and shipped from Chandler, Arizona!"


----------



## MrGreen83

For most of the SQ setups I've seen or heard I should say...they were running their sub(s) at 4 ohms. 

All I'm saying is...It gets a little difficult to match amps/subs when u have to drop ur amp down to 2ohms just to get 300 watts of output. That should be the minimum output at 4 ohms.

Especially if ur running dual subs! 150 watts a piece? Inadequate


----------



## captainobvious

backousis said:


> well everybody is right.
> i just miss the old hifonics orion phoenix gold
> harman kardon soundsteream etc.
> some will agree with me some will say only watts
> matter.
> whatever anybody thinks.
> yes chinese can make good products too if you pay enough.
> but the manufacturers go to china because they don't want to
> pay.
> 
> and maybe there is another reason.
> 
> we (sq guys)are small market now.
> 
> the money is at the spl so why should they bother?




I think what people miss most is the marketing of the old amps. Whether they realize it or not.


----------



## KillerBox

And of course, you still have Linear Power that never left the USA.

Linear Power


----------



## Elektra

MrGreen83 said:


> For most of the SQ setups I've seen or heard I should say...they were running their sub(s) at 4 ohms.
> 
> All I'm saying is...It gets a little difficult to match amps/subs when u have to drop ur amp down to 2ohms just to get 300 watts of output. That should be the minimum output at 4 ohms.
> 
> Especially if ur running dual subs! 150 watts a piece? Inadequate




Yeah - can you imagine running a JBL W12GTI or a Morel Ultimo 12 off 150rms

But you look at Scanspeak subs I think the 23W only needs 250rms - Revelator 9" 

Brother has 2 but I think they can take a lot more than 250w as he is using a Helix A2 which gives him like 900w at 2 ohms 

They seem to eat it up...

Very impressive sub has a proper low end... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DC/Hertz

LPs damping factor yo. To bad it don't mean anything. 
Sorry, I don't want amps with 30-40 year old tech. 
And I have zero issues running sub bass at 1ohm. The amp is made for it, it will be fine.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Bridge a pair of channels to 4 ohms and you're at 2 ohms on each channel. I was happy with 340 bridged on a sealed 10", and just as happy with 200 bridged to that same sealed 10. Regular Arc 10 to be exact. Gonna have 200rms on a sealed Alumapro 12 in the new install for pure blending bliss. Meh, guess I'm getting cranky and boring in my old man mentality.


----------



## Babs

MrGreen83 said:


> My only beef with those (XDv2 5 channel) amps is the subwoofer channel. What the hell subwoofer are u driving with only 180-300 watts?


Each of my AE SBP12's, 8ohms each in fact, are getting the sub channel from two XD1000/5v2 amps. It's rocking just fine in infinite baffle.


----------



## MrGreen83

But the XD1000/5v2 does 400-600 (RMS) on the sub channel lol. THAT is adequate. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Bridge a pair of channels to 4 ohms and you're at 2 ohms on each channel. I was happy with 340 bridged on a sealed 10", and just as happy with 200 bridged to that same sealed 10. Regular Arc 10 to be exact. Gonna have 200rms on a sealed Alumapro 12 in the new install for pure blending bliss. Meh, guess I'm getting cranky and boring in my old man mentality.




Depends on the sub I suppose - but generally more power sounds better..

I had a JBL W12 Gti 12 feed it about 400rms and then I tried something and I ran a 24db slope and doubled the power and the sub sounded much better

Old school 5 channel amps like the Soundstream Rubicon amps only made power at 2ohms so at 4 ohms it was 150w but at 2ohms it was 300w so I guess the manufacturer want you to buy 2 subs instead of one... 

The Exact 10 was a wonderful product - it was rated at 300w but I gave it more and it sounded great - I gave it 300w and it lacked some impact...

Now my setup will have 2 Focal Utopia 33WX subs with a MX 2 Brax amp so I'll give it 500w each and run a stereo bass setup... should be good - I hope! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

MrGreen83 said:


> My only beef with those (XDv2 5 channel) amps is the subwoofer channel. What the hell subwoofer are u driving with only 180-300 watts?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





MrGreen83 said:


> For most of the SQ setups I've seen or heard I should say...they were running their sub(s) at 4 ohms.
> 
> All I'm saying is...It gets a little difficult to match amps/subs when u have to drop ur amp down to 2ohms just to get 300 watts of output. That should be the minimum output at 4 ohms.
> 
> Especially if ur running dual subs! 150 watts a piece? Inadequate


its perfect for JL's slim subs or lower priced enclosed subs. otherwise they would just be competing against themselves


----------



## RollingThunder

kenyer said:


> Ok so here is my take on SQ amps..I have 2 Subaru Outbacks I drive 1.5 hrs one way to work and back. A 2004 and a 1999 model. Both cars have HAT Clarus tweeters and crossovers, both cars carry HAT Mirrus speakers in the rear doors. The 04 car has 6.5" Clarus in the front doors while the 99 car has 6.5" Imagines. The 04 has a Pioneer DEH p800PRS head unit while the 99 has a Alpine CDE HD149BT. Both cars have Dyna Mat on the front doors also, For amps I wanted to try old and new so in the 04 car I bought a new JL Audio HD 600/4 to power the front and rear speakers. This car also has a Illusion Audio C10XL sub with Audison AV DUE amp. The sound is awesome with really good soundstage for a car and a warm easy to listen to sound. The 99 car has Linear Power 2202IQ for the fronts and Linear Power 2002 for the rear. I had both amps gone thru and upgraded by RAY at TIPS. I have a HAT 12" Clarus sub for this car but haven't found the amp I want yet. But anyway, the difference in sound between this car and the 04 is significant. The Linear Power amps are playing thru the Alpine head unit and they don't have crossovers of their own so the sound is much brighter and lively. With both systems you are very aware of the quality of each recording. This is new tech class D vs high end class A/B. I guess I'll agree that finally class D amps can be equal to class A/B amps in SQ. BTW, I mostly listen to Pandora through a I Phone 5. It's connected with RCA jack on the Pioneer 800PRS in the 04 car and USB with Alpine in the 99 car. Hope this helps and while I'm here if anyone has a really good sub amp for sale I am on the look out for one


http://www.caraudioforumz.com/car-audio-sale-9/used-audison-lrx5-1k-amps-$850-265956/


----------



## BMW Alpina

captainobvious said:


> I think what people miss most is the marketing of the old amps. Whether they realize it or not.


I think what I missed is the Industrial looks of the old school amp,

I use to owned 6 Soundstream Class A 6.0 and 2 Soundstream Class A3.0.
also a couple of Phoenix Gold... I love those heatsink style...
Also love the looks of Old Nakamichi amp...
Current Zapco LX amp looks nice too but I really miss that Soundstream looks...
it's looks expensive unlike many current amps...
especially that tarantula things


----------



## HOIRiIZON

Hillbilly SQ said:


> JL HD and XD for fullrange D. Then your typical higher end a/b amps like Mosconi ZERO, Sinfoni, Helix, Zapco, and the list goes on and on. However, after running the JL XD series I can't think of a good reason to go back to a/b amps. And I used to be a diehard a/b guy even on subs. Used to run the Mosconi One series amps. They weren't anything special though.
> 
> Now, you will see people post in this thread that a watt is a watt. TOTAL BS to a point. As long as the amp is of a good design and quality parts are used that's all that really matters in the big picture. Beyond that you're just splitting hairs. The biggest issues I've had with cheaply built amps is from what seems to be a sagging power supply. I've had a quality amp rated for way less power blow the doors off of a cheaply made amp rated for a lot more. The cheaply made amp could probably do rated power for a split second, but that's about it.


It's too bad you went with the Mosconi one amps, the next step up would say is there best amps,the AS 100.4 is probably the best 4 channel amp in it's price range, I can't think of a better amp. Also price wise Hertz HDP4 is a great class D amp and really cheap when it's on sale. You can't go wrong with JL Audio slash amps as well the XD are great for the money like you said.


----------



## HOIRiIZON

BMW Alpina said:


> I think what I missed is the Industrial looks of the old school amp,
> 
> I use to owned 6 Soundstream Class A 6.0 and 2 Soundstream Class A3.0.
> also a couple of Phoenix Gold... I love those heatsink style...
> Also love the looks of Old Nakamichi amp...
> Current Zapco LX amp looks nice too but I really miss that Soundstream looks...
> it's looks expensive unlike many current amps...
> especially that tarantula things


Yes, the old school Phoenix Gold Titantiums in the early 90's were great!! I used to run the Kicker ZR amps with the modules in them, great amps with a high SN ratio back then. That tarantula looked sick back in the day for its time, they had another amp like that one but I can't remember the name of it.


----------



## HOIRiIZON

Niloy said:


> I think JL Audio amp is still providing great sound quality.
> Yeah, that's true its price is higher than other's amp. but the quality it provides it's worth it.
> My favorite amp of JL audio is JL XD700/5. One of the best powerful amp of today's market.


I would say the Hertz HDP5 is a better choice for the money, I own both and swapped the JL out for the Hertz, to me it was a big difference with everything else the same. I always like the slash series the best even over the HD today. I know everyone on here hates Audison but the Voce 5.1HD is great for a 5 channel but way over priced. Just be aware that the bass is not going to be crazy loud on most 5 channel amps. On a side note I ran my old Hertz HDP5 all the time at high volume, once for a long trip of 13 hrs and it never shuts off!! My old ZR and used to shut down in about 4 hrs cranked lol


----------



## Elektra

HOIRiIZON said:


> I would say the Hertz HDP5 is a better choice for the money, I own both and swapped the JL out for the Hertz, to me it was a big difference with everything else the same. I always like the slash series the best even over the HD today. I know everyone on here hates Audison but the Voce 5.1HD is great for a 5 channel but way over priced. Just be aware that the bass is not going to be crazy loud on most 5 channel amps. On a side note I ran my old Hertz HDP5 all the time at high volume, once for a long trip of 13 hrs and it never shuts off!! My old ZR and used to shut down in about 4 hrs cranked lol




Why do you say everyone hates Audison? There products are decent throughout the range - and there Thesis amps are top products.

Granted they have had issues with Bitones etc... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Babs

HOIRiIZON said:


> I would say the Hertz HDP5 is a better choice for the money, I own both and swapped the JL out for the Hertz, to me it was a big difference with everything else the same. I always like the slash series the best even over the HD today. I know everyone on here hates Audison but the Voce 5.1HD is great for a 5 channel but way over priced. Just be aware that the bass is not going to be crazy loud on most 5 channel amps. On a side note I ran my old Hertz HDP5 all the time at high volume, once for a long trip of 13 hrs and it never shuts off!! My old ZR and used to shut down in about 4 hrs cranked lol



I don't want to come off as contrary, but just curious.. I've never heard that Hertz, but isn't that one based on the same platform/board as the PPI Phantom / NVX JAD etc?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## DC/Hertz

Babs said:


> I don't want to come off as contrary, but just curious.. I've never heard that Hertz, but isn't that one based on the same platform/board as the PPI Phantom / NVX JAD etc?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


They share a board. Yes. That's common practice with Asian amps


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

HOIRiIZON said:


> It's too bad you went with the Mosconi one amps, the next step up would say is there best amps,the AS 100.4 is probably the best 4 channel amp in it's price range, I can't think of a better amp. Also price wise Hertz HDP4 is a great class D amp and really cheap when it's on sale. You can't go wrong with JL Audio slash amps as well the XD are great for the money like you said.


They went under the front bench of my Ram. Space was at a premium. Didn't help that the guy I bought my first one from didn't act like he wanted to sell me an AS100.4. The AS amps probably sell on here used for a higher percentage of their retail than the One series. And everyone and their momma seems to be running the AS and ZERO amps in the comp lanes...or used to.


----------



## fcarpio

Babs said:


> I don't want to come off as contrary, but just curious.. I've never heard that Hertz, but isn't that one based on the same platform/board as the PPI Phantom / NVX JAD etc?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Yes, they are essentially the same, not just the board but the chassis as well. I think they are good amps, but don't know how reliable they are. If it breaks, get another.


----------



## rton20s

This has all been done before...

Hertz HDP...









Precision Power Phantom...


----------



## SkizeR

Don't tell horizon that. He's sensitive

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## rton20s

SkizeR said:


> Don't tell horizon that. He's sensitive
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## DC/Hertz

Its also been addressed anyone can see they are not identical. Anyone can go to a build house and get a slightly different copy.


----------



## rton20s

DC/Hertz said:


> Its also been addressed anyone can see they are not identical. Anyone can go to a build house and get a slightly different copy.


----------



## HOIRiIZON

fcarpio said:


> Yes, they are essentially the same, not just the board but the chassis as well. I think they are good amps, but don't know how reliable they are. If it breaks, get another.



Similar but not the exact same, breaks get a new one lol I ran mine all day long at highest volume for hours and hours, and never had any problems, and SQ is great, honestly everything has been done before, go look at your TV screens, if you have an OLED panel guess who makes them all LG so does than means Sony TV's that are OLED are inferior because LG makes the panel? It comes down to your ears what sounds good, and the HDP amps sound great to me and thousands of others. Also sounds better than the JL XD's I have had them both and prefer the HDP's by far.


----------



## HOIRiIZON

SkizeR said:


> Don't tell horizon that. He's sensitive
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Sensitive to what? Lmao trying to start **** again? It's ok whatever car audio company took the rights to sell the good products in your town, now your left with the scraps lol.


----------



## SkizeR

HOIRiIZON said:


> Sensitive to what? Lmao trying to start **** again? It's ok bad whatever car audio company took the rights to sell the good products in your town, now your left with the scraps lol.


No one sells anything in my town lol. As a matter of fact, the shop I'm affiliated with is the last one standing on the island of Manhattan 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Babs

HOIRiIZON said:


> Similar but not the exact same, breaks get a new one lol I ran mine all day long at highest volume for hours and hours, and never had any problems, and SQ is great, honestly everything has been done before, go look at your TV screens, if you have an OLED panel guess who makes them all LG so does than means Sony TV's that are OLED are inferior because LG makes the panel? It comes down to your ears what sounds good, and the HDP amps sound great to me and thousands of others. Also sounds better than the JL XD's I have had them both and prefer the HDP's by far.



Yeah the PPI was a good design. I had the NVX's and they were eh mid-fi. The PPI's seem to get better reviews. More to the amp than the board I suppose. The components make the differences in execution. The PPI / NVX comparisons in here showed there was some definite differences in components all around. I imagine the same would hold true for your Hertz branded version. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MrGreen83

HOIRiIZON said:


> Sensitive to what? Lmao trying to start **** again? It's ok whatever car audio company took the rights to sell the good products in your town, now your left with the scraps lol.




Try to ignore him. He'll only talk to you if you respond. Works for me 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HOIRiIZON

MrGreen83 said:


> Try to ignore him. He'll only talk to you if you respond. Works for me
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's why I have never bought anything from people like this, they say all other products that they can't carry are crap. One of my best friends owns six car/home audio stores and he never bashes products that he doesn't carry It's in professional.


----------



## MrGreen83

HOIRiIZON said:


> That's why I have never bought anything from people like this, they say all other products that they can't carry are crap. One of my best friends owns six car/home audio stores and he never bashes products that he doesn't carry It's in professional.




lol that's not why he doesn't like Hertz/Audison. But it doesn't matter, his opinion isn't the one that counts when it comes to ur setup and preferences. Arguing with him only makes him keep responding lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

HOIRiIZON said:


> That's why I have never bought anything from people like this, they say all other products that they can't carry are crap. One of my best friends owns six car/home audio stores and he never bashes products that he doesn't carry It's in professional.


Can't carry? More like do carry. I have to deal with thwir product all the time unfortunately. I separate from work when I'm on my personal account on this forum and speak my mind because I know no one here will walk into the shop

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## HOIRiIZON

MrGreen83 said:


> lol that's not why he doesn't like Hertz/Audison. But it doesn't matter, his opinion isn't the one that counts when it comes to ur setup and preferences. Arguing with him only makes him keep responding lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sure that has something to do with it, see I have been around the car audio scene for 35 years, Managed one of my buddies stores. I know how it works if your trying to carry a certain brand. I can gauantee you he wasn't allowed to Carry either brand. Also he lied again google car audio where he is at, lots of places, one big one that carries Audison Hertz lmao. Anyways I'm done with him!! He is a joke, probably going to go bankrupt soon with his attitude.


----------



## rton20s

Babs said:


> Yeah the PPI was a good design. I had the NVX's and they were eh mid-fi. The PPI's seem to get better reviews. More to the amp than the board I suppose. The components make the differences in execution. The PPI / NVX comparisons in here showed there was some definite differences in components all around. I imagine the same would hold true for your Hertz branded version.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


For good measure...



rton20s said:


> This has all been done before...
> 
> Hertz HDP...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Precision Power Phantom...


NVX JAD...









Obviously the NVX has a completely different board layout.


----------



## DC/Hertz

Yeah it's completely upside down


----------



## Victor_inox

HDP it seems cost $10 more to make. I wouldn`t use either of them if they were free.
It`s unlikely they use the same build house, same circuit but slightly different. 

JL HD is superior to that mess of an amplifier. And i don`t even like JL amplifiers.


----------



## rton20s

DC/Hertz said:


> Yeah it's completely upside down


----------



## 1fishman

Babs said:


> Yeah the PPI was a good design. I had the NVX's and they were eh mid-fi. The PPI's seem to get better reviews. More to the amp than the board I suppose. The components make the differences in execution. The PPI / NVX comparisons in here showed there was some definite differences in components all around. I imagine the same would hold true for your Hertz branded version.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


The NVX i bought from you, sounded the same as the PPI my Phantom to my ears.
Even had them put on a switch box and tested by ears better than mine, and they said the same thing. My JL HD sounded different/better than those but like Lizard I'm just not sure it wasn't something that a good dsp tune couldn't fix. One day I hope pick up a Z-series LX amp one day, i'm optimistic that i'll hear something that will impress.


----------



## jriggs

1fishman said:


> The NVX i bought from you, sounded the same as the PPI my Phantom to my ears.
> Even had them put on a switch box and tested by ears better than mine, and they said the same thing. My JL HD sounded different/better than those but like Lizard I'm just not sure it wasn't something that a good dsp tune couldn't fix. One day I hope pick up a Z-series LX amp one day, i'm optimistic that i'll hear something that will impress.


Save up and get yourself the Zapco Z LX's. They are worth it and one of the best deals going when you consider the components used to build them. Plus regulated power and no crossovers or other unnecessary parts.


----------



## HOIRiIZON

Victor_inox said:


> HDP it seems cost $10 more to make. I wouldn`t use either of them if they were free.
> It`s unlikely they use the same build house, same circuit but slightly different.
> 
> JL HD is superior to that mess of an amplifier. And i don`t even like JL amplifiers.


JL HD should be its over $1,000 more lol JL's best amps have always been Slash regardless of price.


----------



## Victor_inox

HOIRiIZON said:


> Jl HD should be its over $1,000 more lol


Honestly I have no idea what you just said.


----------



## SkizeR

HOIRiIZON said:


> Jl HD should be its over $1,000 more lol


hdp5 goes for around 600. the hd retails for 990. solid math


----------



## HOIRiIZON

I'm starting to get tired correcting people on here, see attached photos please. See third pick for over $1,000 more like I said.


----------



## SkizeR

HOIRiIZON said:


> I'm starting to get tired correcting people on here, see attached photos please. See third pick for over $1,000 more like I said.


1) thats canadian. #merica
2) thats not retail of the hertz amp. thats gray market pricing (for canadian dollars)
3) the hd 4 channel is less than 800usd. even in canadian thats only 1080 dollars. you guys are getting shafted on customs :laugh:


----------



## HOIRiIZON

I would say your getting ripped off, if your paying that much US for that amp. Even if you took the HD 900/5 it's even more at $1800.00 here and the HDP5 is $899 retail still $900.00 more. I have never paid retail but can buy the HDP amps for $5-700 less than the HD. So this is why I say the HDP amps for the price are the best amps out there in Canada anyways. I paid $420 for mine which would be around $350 ish US. Find a better amp for than much anywhere brand new 3 year warranty.


----------



## SkizeR

with currency accounted for we're paying less for JL amps but were getting ripped off? interesting logic


----------



## PPI_GUY

Best bang for your buck in amps is still the JL Audio XD series. This is of course my opinion but, I've used them and the NVX/PPI/Polk amps. The Hertz seems to have an elevated price point based on ???
Nothing wrong with those clones but, I happen to like the proprietary design of the XD amps. Seem to be very quiet, never get hot (just like most class D) and have a tiny footprint. Are also more than a little underrated. Which is a nice bonus.


----------



## SkizeR

PPI_GUY said:


> Best bang for your buck in amps is still the JL Audio XD series. This is of course my opinion but, I've used them and the NVX/PPI/Polk amps. The Hertz seems to have an elevated price point based on ???
> Nothing wrong with those clones but, I happen to like the proprietary design of the XD amps. Seem to be very quiet, never get hot (just like most class D) and have a tiny footprint. Are also more than a little underrated. Which is a nice bonus.


elevated price because of the image/name of the brand, and controls on the top of the amp. the xd's are our go-to amp


----------



## HOIRiIZON

Everyone has there opinion, but owning them all the Hertz HDP series blows the doors off the cheap JL XD's and sounds a lot louder and cleaner, that's coming from a guy that has had all the JL amps starting with the XD and going up to the HD, Slash still my preferred amp out of the JL's. You can pick up the XD's here for dirt cheap.


----------



## Victor_inox

HOIRiIZON said:


> Everyone has there opinion, but owning them all the Hertz HDP series blows the doors off the cheap JL XD's and sounds a lot louder and cleaner, that's coming from a guy that has had all the JL amps starting with the XD and going up to the HD, Slash still my preferred amp out of the JL's. You can pick up the XD's here for dirt cheap.


Some people`s opinions worth not much though..


----------



## PPI_GUY

HOIRiIZON said:


> Everyone has there opinion, but owning them all *the Hertz HDP series blows the doors off the cheap JL XD's *and sounds a lot louder and cleaner, that's coming from a guy that has had all the JL amps starting with the XD and going up to the HD, Slash still my preferred amp out of the JL's. You can pick up the XD's here for dirt cheap.


Would be interested to hear exactly how the HDP's "blow the doors off" the XD's. If you're talking power output then I hope you compared similarly rated amps? Like maybe the HDP 1 vs the XD1000 and so on. The Xd has a s/n ratio of better than 104 db. That's pretty quiet so, the noise floor shouldn't be an issue. Are you saying the XD's are not tonally transparent?


----------



## SkizeR

PPI_GUY said:


> Would be interested to hear exactly how the HDP's "blow the doors off" the XD's. If you're talking power output then I hope you compared similarly rated amps? Like maybe the HDP 1 vs the XD1000 and so on. The Xd has a s/n ratio of better than 104 db. That's pretty quiet so, the noise floor shouldn't be an issue. Are you saying the XD's are not tonally transparent?


hes just going against what im saying for the sake of it


----------



## HOIRiIZON

Yes I know after a couple days on here I know this!! I could really care less the opinion of someone that sells equipment on here, it's going to be bias. I won SQ comps in the early 90's have had a ton of systems over the years, products like Kicker, Phoenix Gold, Macintosh, Eclipse, Focal first person in Canada to have the Utopia's, Morel, Alpine etc....Also managed a car audio/home theatre store 1 of 6. So I don't need anyone's opinion, just came on here to see what people are doing these days. A few people on here I could careless about. You should stick to the topic on hand would be my advice, rather than smart ass comments, that's my opinion lol


----------



## HOIRiIZON

SkizeR said:


> hes just going against what im saying for the sake of it


I could care less about you buddy, but you have a hard on for me I see lol


----------



## SkizeR

HOIRiIZON said:


> I could care less about you buddy, but you have a hard on for me I see lol


yup. im gay, remember? epper:


----------



## HOIRiIZON

PPI_GUY said:


> Would be interested to hear exactly how the HDP's "blow the doors off" the XD's. If you're talking power output then I hope you compared similarly rated amps? Like maybe the HDP 1 vs the XD1000 and so on. The Xd has a s/n ratio of better than 104 db. That's pretty quiet so, the noise floor shouldn't be an issue. Are you saying the XD's are not tonally transparent?


First off go google the two amps HDP4 and JL XD400/4 I have had them both in same SUV same set up Mille's up front. The XD is 75 by 4 at 4 OHMS, the HDP4 is 150 by 4 at 4OHM so power wise and loudness ya it blows the doors of it. SN Hertz again is higher go look at the specs please. Also there is a chain store here that sells both, the Gereral MGR has all XD amps in his exact Jeep Grand Cherokee as me other than mine is an SRT. Ask him who's vehicle sounds better, only difference is amps, same exact everything. I think the JL XD are good amps for there level, just like the Hertz are, I guess not in the US since you guys get burned on the price of them. Are there better amps he'll ya, I still prefer my old Macintosh out of any amp I have ever owned but that's my opinion and when your in your vehicles on a road trip with the tunes cranked that's all that matters to me!!


----------



## HOIRiIZON

SkizeR said:


> yup. im gay, remember? epper:


Whatever floats your boat.


----------



## SkizeR

HOIRiIZON said:


> First off go google the two amps HDP4 and JL XD400/4 I have had them both in same SUV same set up Mille's up front. The XD is 75 by 4 at 4 OHMS, the HDP4 is 150 by 4 at 4OHM so power wise and loudness ya it blows the doors of it. SN Hertz again is higher go look at the specs please. Also there is a chain store here that sells both, the Gereral MGR has all XD amps in his exact Jeep Grand Cherokee as me other than mine is an SRT. Ask him who's vehicle sounds better, only difference is amps, same exact everything. I think the JL XD are good amps for there level, just like the Hertz are, I guess not in the US since you guys get burned on the price of them. Are there better amps he'll ya, I still prefer my old Macintosh out of any amp I have ever owned but that's my opinion and when your in your vehicles on a road trip with the tunes cranked that's all that matters to me!!


you guys had the same tune? interesting


----------



## HOIRiIZON

Was it done by the same installer? Or was a DSP involved? Please your stretching?? No DSP only a JL fix everything is the same, sound deadening, wires, rca's etc... Don't tell me you have never swapped out an amp in your system and never heard a difference lol


----------



## SkizeR

HOIRiIZON said:


> Was it done by the same installer? Or was a DSP involved? Please your stretching?? No DSP only a JL fix everything is the same, sound deadening, wires, rca's etc... Don't tell me you have never swapped out an amp in your system and never heard a difference lol


so no tuning yet your jumping to judging equipment? thats ass backwards :laugh:


----------



## HOIRiIZON

SkizeR said:


> so no tuning yet your jumping to judging equipment? thats ass backwards :laugh:


I said no DSP, I never said no tuning. His vehicle sounded good, but at higher volume it was nite and day difference. You never answered the question? Have you swapped out only a 4 channel amp in one of your vehicles before and noticed a difference?


----------



## SkizeR

HOIRiIZON said:


> I said no DSP, I never said no tuning. His vehicle sounded good, but at higher volume it was nite and day difference. You never answered the question? Have you swapped out only a 4 channel amp in one of your vehicles before and noticed a difference?


yeah clearly no dsp = no tuning. which means its silly to even begin judging equipment when theres all sorts of ****ery going on with the sound. and of course i have in a situation like yours, where theres a massive swing in power difference


----------



## HOIRiIZON

Ok buddy, next. I thought we were comparing amps? Not DSP's that is another thread.


----------



## SkizeR

HOIRiIZON said:


> Ok buddy, next. I thought we were comparing amps? Not DSP's that is another thread.


no, im not comparing dsp's. im just saying your comparison is flawed. how can you accurately compare two pieces of equipment when the sound is shot from the start?


----------



## HOIRiIZON

SkizeR said:


> yeah clearly no dsp = no tuning. which means its silly to even begin judging equipment when theres all sorts of ****ery going on with the sound. and of course i have in a situation like yours, where theres a massive swing in power difference



Anyways my last message to you on here is, you avoided the question!! Lmao that's what I thought you would do, your predictable. Let me know if your ever in Alberta we can compare our stereo's NOT. Your still a car audio NEWB at 24 years of age, you missed the good stuff!!


----------



## SkizeR

HOIRiIZON said:


> Anyways my last message to you on here is, you avoided the question!! Lmao that's what I thought you would do, your predictable. Let me know if your ever in Alberta we can compare our stereo's NOT. Your still a car audio NEWB at 24 years of age, you missed the good stuff!!


im guessing you missed this..



SkizeR said:


> and of course i have in a situation like yours, where theres a massive swing in power difference




i love people like you. thinking their time equates to knowledge.. lol


----------



## HOIRiIZON

Time does = Knowledge and you haven't put the time in kid!! I'm retired at age 46, something tells me your going to be working a long long time lol


----------



## SkizeR

HOIRiIZON said:


> Time does = Knowledge and you haven't put the time in kid!! I'm retired at age 46, something tells me your going to be working a long long time lol


wrong. 110% wrong. along with time, you need effort, experience, and a desire to learn to gain knowledge. how do you expect to gain knowledge if you dont care to put in the effort to learn something new? thats whats all of you has beens dont get. you think you have wisdom just because your old :laugh:


----------



## nineball76

Here we go again


----------



## PPI_GUY

HOIRiIZON said:


> First off go google the two amps HDP4 and JL XD400/4 I have had them both in same SUV same set up Mille's up front. The XD is 75 by 4 at 4 OHMS, the HDP4 is 150 by 4 at 4OHM so power wise and loudness ya it blows the doors of it. SN Hertz again is higher go look at the specs please. Also there is a chain store here that sells both, the Gereral MGR has all XD amps in his exact Jeep Grand Cherokee as me other than mine is an SRT. Ask him who's vehicle sounds better, only difference is amps, same exact everything. I think the JL XD are good amps for there level, just like the Hertz are, I guess not in the US since you guys get burned on the price of them. Are there better amps he'll ya, I still prefer my old Macintosh out of any amp I have ever owned but that's my opinion and when your in your vehicles on a road trip with the tunes cranked that's all that matters to me!!


So, basically double the power for the Hertz. As I said, need to compare models where the power is roughly the same. Hard to compare two amps with that much difference in power output. 
S/N looks to be about the same for both and I know the XD's have the circuit that rolls back power when voltage drops too low. 
I don't think the Hertz has a remote level control, which may or may not be an issue. Both have top mount controls which can be hidden on XD. 
XD chassis size is smaller but, that's to be expect with half the power. 
The JL XD 400/4 can be had for roughly $400 US and the Hertz for $500. 
So, basically it boils down to the subjective audio experience that can be greatly influenced by drivers chosen, DSP and tune along with the listening environment. 

Again, I've owned the XD 400/4 and 600/1 amps and had no issues whatsoever. My install used no DSP and my headunit was a mid-level Pioneer. Drivers were 2x Image Dynamics IDQ 10's and the PPI 356cs comp set. 
I found the amps to be extremely quiet and very warm sounding with no harshness. Transients were good and the sub-bass was dynamic and impactful. No turn-on/off thump and neither amp ever got anything beyond warm to the touch. I will add that both JL Xd amps were in like new but, used condition at the time.


----------



## HOIRiIZON

Well I for one wouldn't even compare the two, but I did since you and others brought them up, to me the Slash series is what I would compare to the HDP series. I never said the XD's were bad amps, they are decent, but compared to the HDP's there clearly not as good, that is my opinion. I mean if I was going to go with JL I would go with there old class A/B Slash amps over anything they have ever done. But the OP was asking SQ amps, and my opinion where I live, the HDP's I think are the best for the Canadian Dollar. Also the XD400/4 is there highest four channel, and the one I had before I swapped it out with the HDP4. 


I don't think you need a DSP to figure out if you like one amp over the other, like some people on here lol. To me when I have changed amps in the past most were night and day different. But if you like your XD that's fine, as long as it does what you want it to, that's all that matters.


----------



## HOIRiIZON

HOIRiIZON said:


> Well I for one wouldn't even compare the two, but I did since you and others brought them up, to me the Slash series is what I would compare to the HDP series. I never said the XD's were bad amps, they are decent, but compared to the HDP's there clearly not as good, that is my opinion. I mean if I was going to go with JL I would go with there old class A/B Slash amps over anything they have ever done. But the OP was asking SQ amps, and my opinion where I live, the HDP's I think are the best for the Canadian Dollar. Also the XD400/4 is there highest four channel, and the one I had before I swapped it out with the HDP4.
> 
> 
> I don't think you need a DSP to figure out if you like one amp over the other, like some people on here lol. To me when I have changed amps in the past most were night and day different. But if you like your XD that's fine, as long as it does what you want it to do, that's all that matters.


----------



## Wiggler

knever3 said:


> I knew this would happen, thread fail again. A subjective contest like all the rest. OP I hope you have your answer.


I agree. I could tell this was the initial intent from the thinly veiled feeble reassurances that the OP made in the early pages. If a constructive response was desired, then "brand X" and "brand Y", would have names, so a proper comparison could follow.


----------



## DC/Hertz

From somebody that went from 6 channels of JL slash amps to class D Korean. The JLs are good looking amps but not worth the heat and massive power they require for the power.


----------



## Babs

1fishman said:


> The NVX i bought from you, sounded the same as the PPI my Phantom to my ears.
> Even had them put on a switch box and tested by ears better than mine, and they said the same thing. My JL HD sounded different/better than those but like Lizard I'm just not sure it wasn't something that a good dsp tune couldn't fix. One day I hope pick up a Z-series LX amp one day, i'm optimistic that i'll hear something that will impress.


Hmm.. That's cool. I think my mileage varied with them also because of the setup, head unit etc also. 

Yeah I've been dabbling with that very same Z-LX idea.. Currently I'm dancing with the XD's I have at the party, which have served well. 

However, there is that little fact that Diogo at Soundigital is coming out with re-vamped GaN-based amps to replace the last one that's gotten silly good almost gushy reviews and Matt Hall hailed on his recent high-end amp shootout. Steve Cook swears by them, and by all accounts by those who've heard them, they are very very legit. Expensive as all get out, but legit for bringing the SQ's to the yard. 

The new GaN models are claimed to be even better and in a 2 and 4 channel, and I imagine they're taking our criticisms into account concerning how they look, which is something I personally couldn't care less about so long as the quality is there.

The Z-LX might be the pinnacle of SQ value per dollar, but man the sketchy support reviews in here really give me pause. There's always the flip-side of every story though.. How many of those bad-experience customers bought authorized? I'd imagine if you picked one up from woofersetc or amazon (via woofersetc), or some other non-brick-n-mortar source, one shouldn't expect stellar world-class red-carpet support from a 1-man hifi boutique operation. Something to keep in mind before you hit that amazon button.


----------



## Babs

HOIRiIZON said:


> JL HD should be its over $1,000 more lol JL's best amps have always been Slash regardless of price.


I've heard JL Slash for years and years in various cars.. Definitely a good go-to amp, especially when you like JL's support. Are the Slash amps then still a solid player that a person should consider given their design age? Slash vs HD vs XD would be a great comparison.


----------



## MrGreen83

Babs said:


> I've heard JL Slash for years and years in various cars.. Definitely a good go-to amp, especially when you like JL's support. Are the Slash amps then still a solid player that a person should consider given their design age? Slash vs HD vs XD would be a great comparison.




I actually prefer the XD's over the Slash & HD. Something about my xd400/4v2 I just can't figure it out but it sounds amazing man. And that's in my beater car with no DSP. After the XD's for me it's the HD which I have in my weekend vehicle. Love the HD. Never been a fan of the slash. Too big. I used a 500/1 back in the day but meh. Just not my cup of tea. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cmusic

Babs said:


> ....
> 
> The Z-LX might be the pinnacle of SQ value per dollar, but man the sketchy support reviews in here really give me pause. There's always the flip-side of every story though.. How many of those bad-experience customers bought authorized? I'd imagine if you picked one up from woofersetc or amazon (via woofersetc), or some other non-brick-n-mortar source, one shouldn't expect stellar world-class red-carpet support from a 1-man hifi boutique operation. Something to keep in mind before you hit that amazon button.


I bought both my Z-LX amps used but in excellent condition off of reliable people here on DIY and I have had no problems at all with them. As far as SQ goes, they are definitely better than the Alpine PDX-F6 and M12 amps they replaced with the same speaker and tuning setup. So far I would put them just slightly behind the best amp I ever owned, a Brax Graphic X2400. The Z-LXs don't really have any tonal characteristics but just produce clean distortion free power no matter what listening volume is used.


----------



## CSEmoses

The amount of ******** i this thread is epic, lol. 

how about Genesis? 
or Zuki?


----------



## SkizeR

CSEmoses said:


> The amount of ******** i this thread is epic, lol.
> 
> how about Genesis?
> or Zuki?


Because hertz is sicker yo

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## HOIRiIZON

Genesis great amps??


----------



## MrGreen83

Smh. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rton20s

Babs said:


> The Z-LX might be the pinnacle of SQ value per dollar, but man the sketchy support reviews in here really give me pause. There's always the flip-side of every story though.. How many of those bad-experience customers bought authorized? I'd imagine if you picked one up from woofersetc or amazon (via woofersetc), or some other non-brick-n-mortar source, one shouldn't expect stellar world-class red-carpet support from a 1-man hifi boutique operation. Something to keep in mind before you hit that amazon button.


For the record, I believe Woofers Etc. became a (if not THE) authorized online dealer for Zapco around the time that Atrend took over distribution. That was some time in 2013, if I am not mistaken. 

Be careful with other Zapco dealers selling online though. I don't know of any other authorized online dealers and I believe Zapco probably has a similar policy regarding B&M dealers shipping outside of their region. I haven't seen it here on DIYMA, but it is pretty prevalent on FB.


----------



## DC/Hertz

SkizeR said:


> Because hertz is sicker yo
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I don't know what's worse. Your dislike of Hertz or my dislike of Sundown


----------



## nineball76

DC/Hertz said:


> I don't know what's worse. Your dislike of Hertz or my dislike of Sundown


Your dislike of Sundown. Some of the reasons you've given are pretty funny.


----------



## HOIRiIZON

Not as funny as the guys that say they like the XD amps over the Slash, or not as funny as the 24 year old on here lol or you trying to come to his rescue all the time??


----------



## nineball76

Wasn't taking to you or about you. 

One of his reasons was too many Sundown Sub revisions when the dd 9500 is on like it's 13th version now.


----------



## DC/Hertz

10 revisions since 1999


----------



## nineball76

DC/Hertz said:


> 10 revisions since 1999


K is #11. Plus the earlier 95k models before becoming known as 9500.


----------



## nineball76

Plus the motors used in generations a, c, g, h, and I all had 2 different iterations.


----------



## rton20s




----------



## benny z

...really?


----------



## DC/Hertz

I had the I. It never had 2

But none of this has anything to do with this post about what people prefer more


----------



## DC/Hertz

People just need to get what THEY like and learn how to use it. There are hundreds of great amps on the market. There are also thousands of junk amps. Pick one and move on. Focus on stuff that matters. 
You can ask what's good all day. We all have something we prefer. If it's not the same as you prefer then move on. Build the car you want not the car anyone else wants.


----------



## HOIRiIZON

DC/Hertz said:


> People just need to get what THEY like and learn how to use it. There are hundreds of great amps on the market. There are also thousands of junk amps. Pick one and move on. Focus on stuff that matters.
> You can ask what's good all day. We all have something we prefer. If it's not the same as you prefer then move on. Build the car you want not the car anyone else wants.


100 % correct, most people have there mind made up what they want before they come here, I would say that there are a lot of window shoppers out there though that just like to dream big but don't have the money to purchase what they really want lol I always like to give my opinion on items that are not $5,000 but are good products that are affordable.


----------



## DC/Hertz

There is also no point in making a case for what you like. If the person has their reason to not like it that will never change. So be it. It's not my lose.


----------



## HOIRiIZON

Sure there is, because your making your case to the OP not everyone else. Your giving your perspective on what you have used in the past. Your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's on here.


----------



## nineball76

Since similar boards from different companies was brought up..... Had anyone compared the Wetsounds Syn line to the Arc KS line? The 900.6 is discontinued but the syn6 is basically the same amp without individual channel gain control.


----------



## rton20s




----------



## HOIRiIZON

rton20s said:


>


Or AUTO CORRECT as long as YOU know what the person is saying that's ALL that matters. I'm on a phone, not a computer. This is a forum not a University English exam lol


----------



## Babs

rton20s said:


> For the record, I believe Woofers Etc. became a (if not THE) authorized online dealer for Zapco around the time that Atrend took over distribution. That was some time in 2013, if I am not mistaken.
> 
> Be careful with other Zapco dealers selling online though. I don't know of any other authorized online dealers and I believe Zapco probably has a similar policy regarding B&M dealers shipping outside of their region. I haven't seen it here on DIYMA, but it is pretty prevalent on FB.


Duly noted.. I have another source anyway that I'm pretty positive is dialed in and authorized. What I don't have is a whole bunch of green paper that spends for that kind of gear. At least not until the thing gets a paint job and deserves better gear. :laugh:


----------



## rton20s

Babs said:


> Duly noted.. I have another source anyway that I'm pretty positive is dialed in and authorized. What I don't have is a whole bunch of green paper that spends for that kind of gear. At least not until the thing gets a paint job and deserves better gear. :laugh:


You and me both, my friend.


----------



## rton20s

HOIRiIZON said:


> Or AUTO CORRECT as long as YOU know what the person is saying that's ALL that matters. I'm on a phone, not a computer. This is a forum not a University English exam lol


----------



## HOIRiIZON

Of coarse he does, haven't you watch Amplified lol ??


----------



## rton20s

HOIRiIZON said:


> Of coarse he does, haven't you watch Amplified lol ??


----------



## HOIRiIZON

rton20s said:


>


Trolling would be you, if anyone, you started the comment to me, or your a little anal. Either way I could care less, stick to the topic would be my advice. What is a good SQ amp, I hope with the good grammar, comes along with being able to read?


----------



## rton20s

HOIRiIZON said:


> Trolling would be you, if anyone, you started the comment to me, or your a little anal. Either way I could care less, stick to the topic would be my advice. What is a good SQ amp, I hope with the good grammar, comes along with being able to read?


----------



## HOIRiIZON

rton20s said:


>


----------



## rton20s




----------



## nineball76

I do believe Ground Zero reference and Genesis amps are on my short list of what I'd really like to try out some day


----------



## SkizeR

nineball76 said:


> I do believe Ground Zero reference and Genesis amps are on my short list of what I'd really like to try out some day


Why not skip the ground zero and get them right from the people they buy them from for about a third the price? Based in Russia I think. Elektra knows the name of the amps.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## CSEmoses

i think what we all want to know is: SkizeR, is that your cat in your avatar?

as an aside, i've never even heard of Ground Zero aside from a few posts on here. Their SQ amps look nice. They hardly even offer a 5-channel though.


----------



## SkizeR

CSEmoses said:


> i think what we all want to know is: SkizeR, is that your cat in your avatar?
> 
> as an aside, i've never even heard of Ground Zero aside from a few posts on here. Their SQ amps look nice. They hardly even offer a 5-channel though.


They rebadge almost everything they sell. You can get pretty much everything but for cheaper with a different name on it. And no that's not my cat. That's me

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## CSEmoses

SkizeR said:


> They rebadge almost everything they sell. You can get pretty much everything but for cheaper with a different name on it. And no _*that's not my cat. That's me*_
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I _*knew*_ it!


----------



## CSEmoses

these folks maybe SkizeR?
https://ddaudio.com/products/amplifiers/


----------



## brumledb

CSEmoses said:


> these folks maybe SkizeR?
> https://ddaudio.com/products/amplifiers/


No, these: E.O.S amps


----------



## CSEmoses

brumledb said:


> No, these: E.O.S amps


well look at you


----------



## brumledb

CSEmoses said:


> well look at you















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AyOne

brumledb said:


> No, these: E.O.S amps


Damn. Do they ship to US?


----------



## brumledb

AyOne said:


> Damn. Do they ship to US?





I haven't tried yet but this is how I would attempt it. Let us know if you do and succeed.



Elektra said:


> See pic attached - I find skype works best...
> 
> Pavel is very helpful....
> 
> You can go to Gf.Ru — ÐŸÑ€Ð¾Ñ„ÐµÑ�Ñ�Ð¸Ð¾Ð½Ð°Ð»ÑŒÐ½Ñ‹Ð¹ Ñ�Ð°Ð¹Ñ‚ Ð·Ð° 7700 Ñ€ÑƒÐ±Ð»ÐµÐ¹ Ð² Ð³Ð¾Ð´ | ÐšÐ°Ñ‡ÐµÑ�Ñ‚Ð²ÐµÐ½Ð½Ñ‹Ð¹ Ð¸Ð½Ñ‚ÐµÑ€Ð½ÐµÑ‚-Ñ�Ð°Ð¹Ñ‚ Ð·Ð° 7700 Ñ€ÑƒÐ±Ð»ÐµÐ¹ Ð²ÐºÐ»ÑŽÑ‡Ð°Ñ�, Ñ€ÐµÐ³Ð¸Ñ�Ñ‚Ñ€Ð°Ñ†Ð¸ÑŽ Ð´Ð¾Ð¼ÐµÐ½Ð° Ð¸ Ñ…Ð¾Ñ�Ñ‚Ð¸Ð½Ð³ Ð½Ð° 1 Ð³Ð¾Ð´ use google translate to English - look under premium and elite products the EOS brand is that group...
> 
> Warning there stocks are limited so they don't always have what is shown on the website...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rton20s




----------



## AyOne

rton20s said:


>


:laugh:


----------



## AyOne

brumledb said:


> I haven't tried yet but this is how I would attempt it. Let us know if you do and succeed.


That link is bad, it goes to a web hosting website. I did send an email to the main site. We'll see what they say, I probably won't order one though just because I would hate to lose $500+. I'll see what my CC company says we can do if that happens too.


----------



## AyOne

Well...my email to them bounced back with some prohibited user message. So much for that idea, I was really hoping to get that 5 channel too. Probably better off anyway.


----------



## brumledb

AyOne said:


> Well...my email to them bounced back with some prohibited user message. So much for that idea, I was really hoping to get that 5 channel too. Probably better off anyway.


I would use paypal for payment. You can look on E.O.S.'s website and it shows places you can purchase from. It lists Brax Russia as a vendor and Brax does list it on their website. If they are willing to ship to the US, I think you would have a hard time finding a more reputable company to deal with. 

Where to buy

Brax Russia


----------



## nineball76

Can't find the Pure2 version.


----------



## Elektra

AyOne said:


> Damn. Do they ship to US?




You can Skype Pavel - they pretty good with shipping and it's cheap from Russia - a 5 channel is about $200 which is 4x110+1x360 at 4 ohms - good products 

I doubt you can buy better for the money... 

Email address - [email protected]



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

brumledb said:


> I would use paypal for payment. You can look on E.O.S.'s website and it shows places you can purchase from. It lists Brax Russia as a vendor and Brax does list it on their website. If they are willing to ship to the US, I think you would have a hard time finding a more reputable company to deal with.
> 
> 
> 
> Where to buy
> 
> 
> 
> Brax Russia




I bought a AE-130.4 EOS in January and they accept Paypal...

I always get my stuff 9 days after payment... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

EOS AE-130.4 and the MONO...







































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

The AE-100 looks interesting as it's a 1x100 and has a very nice looking board layout...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AyOne

brumledb said:


> I would use paypal for payment. You can look on E.O.S.'s website and it shows places you can purchase from. It lists Brax Russia as a vendor and Brax does list it on their website. If they are willing to ship to the US, I think you would have a hard time finding a more reputable company to deal with.
> 
> Where to buy
> 
> Brax Russia


Thanks, we'll see what they say.



Elektra said:


> You can Skype Pavel - they pretty good with shipping and it's cheap from Russia - a 5 channel is about $200 which is 4x110+1x360 at 4 ohms - good products
> 
> I doubt you can buy better for the money...
> 
> Email address - [email protected]
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is the 5 channel your talking about the AE4100.1?


----------



## 1fishman

What's up with the, what seems to be very low S/N ratio with the JL Audio XD mono amps? 83db and 53db am I missing something or are those bad S/N numbers. 

XD1000/1v2 - Car Audio - Amplifiers - XD - JL Audio


----------



## AyOne

So I have been corresponding with Pavel @ PITI for about a week or so. I just purchased the E.O.S. AE4100.1 Bi-Amping for my wife's SUV. 

E.O.S. Emotion Of Sound


----------



## USS Enterprise

AyOne said:


> So I have been corresponding with Pavel @ PITI for about a week or so. I just purchased the E.O.S. AE4100.1 Bi-Amping for my wife's SUV.
> 
> E.O.S. Emotion Of Sound


Interested to see what you think.

BTW how much was it?

I can' tell what currency they are using on the website. Elektra said you can get a 5 channel for around 200, but if I use rubles as the currency I get about 800.


----------



## AyOne

USS Enterprise said:


> Interested to see what you think.
> 
> BTW how much was it?
> 
> I can' tell what currency they are using on the website. Elektra said you can get a 5 channel for around 200, but if I use rubles as the currency I get about 800.


$334 USD shipped. He might have been referring to the non "bi-amping" version, which doesn't include front and rear bandpass x-overs.


----------



## Victor_inox

price is in Russian rubles. with today`s exchange rate that amplifier is ripp off.

description in Russian is ****ing hilarious.


----------



## Electrodynamic

I met up with the crew at Boland Audio at CES a few months ago. If they haven't been mentioned, they should be. Check out their history and their USA built amplifiers. Click me for Boland Audio's web page link. 

^ The last two links are not advertisements, but rather actual links to their web page for information.


----------



## Elektra

Victor_inox said:


> price is in Russian rubles. with today`s exchange rate that amplifier is ripp off.
> 
> 
> 
> description in Russian is ****ing hilarious.




The EOS amps are pretty decent I have bought about 15 over the years - they stack up pretty well to much more expensive amps 

There Elite amps are very nice - Classic 50 and 100 - there older AE-980F was a really good amp with Mundorf caps

For the money they good...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fcarpio

AyOne said:


> Damn. Do they ship to US?


They look a lot like DLS Ultimate or Genesis amps, just different color. Chances are they are the same.










By the way, these are GREAT amps as well.


----------



## Victor_inox

Mundorf labeled chineese caps that is. Same build house makes plenty differently branded amplifiers. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

Victor_inox said:


> Mundorf labeled chineese caps that is. Same build house makes plenty differently branded amplifiers.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk




They may be Chinese made but I owned a Brax Platinum amp - X2400GE and X2000GE and I found the EOS AE-980F a better sounding amp - how much was the Brax in comparison to the EOS 

Brax was $5000 the EOS cost me $300 (albeit used) 

Don't scoff at Chinese made amps... not all of them a cheap ****...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox

Elektra said:


> They may be Chinese made but I owned a Brax Platinum amp - X2400GE and X2000GE and I found the EOS AE-980F a better sounding amp - how much was the Brax in comparison to the EOS
> 
> Brax was $5000 the EOS cost me $300 (albeit used)
> 
> Don't scoff at Chinese made amps... not all of them a cheap ****...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Nobody said fakes always crap, look at that "Alpine tweeters for $28 thread.
Fake mundorf caps maybe works better than originals but nonetheless they are fakes. what else is marked as brand name but in fact faked?

This very board full of people who endorse fakes for the sake of saving a few bucks.


----------



## DC/Hertz

I can't do it. It would bother me knowing I don't have the real deal. If I can't afford the real deal then I'll get a lesser real product I can afford.


----------



## nineball76

Victor_inox said:


> Nobody said fakes always crap, look at that "Alpine tweeters for $28 thread.
> Fake mundorf caps maybe works better than originals but nonetheless they are fakes. what else is marked as brand name but in fact faked?
> 
> This very board full of people who endorse fakes for the sake of saving a few bucks.


the Hertz HSK165xl comps were faked for years on eBay, not sure if they still are, but I'm sure they weren't completely crap, just maybe not as perfect as the real ones.


----------



## Elektra

Victor_inox said:


> Nobody said fakes always crap, look at that "Alpine tweeters for $28 thread.
> 
> Fake mundorf caps maybe works better than originals but nonetheless they are fakes. what else is marked as brand name but in fact faked?
> 
> 
> 
> This very board full of people who endorse fakes for the sake of saving a few bucks.




I don't think they use fake Mundorf caps... I think that's presumptuous 

They supply the factory with those kind of parts from Germany 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox

Elektra said:


> I don't think they use fake Mundorf caps... I think that's presumptuous
> 
> They supply the factory with those kind of parts from Germany
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 do you have any idea how much real thing cost in bulk? I do, there is no way in hell they receive real mundorfs,wima,etc and then selling whole amplifier for $300 in retail. 
You of course can believe anything you want. Companies with much better buying power such as pioneer, alpine,etc can`t afford top shelf parts in their higher end products but EOS can?


----------



## DC/Hertz

nineball76 said:


> the Hertz HSK165xl comps were faked for years on eBay, not sure if they still are, but I'm sure they weren't completely crap, just maybe not as perfect as the real ones.


Weren't they faking a ton of focals a few years ago? 
I'm sure china can fake anything. But like you said, that don't mean they are bad. 
I still couldn't do it. It would bother me knowing I have fakes.


----------



## nineball76

DC/Hertz said:


> Weren't they faking a ton of focals a few years ago?
> I'm sure china can fake anything. But like you said, that don't mean they are bad.
> I still couldn't do it. It would bother me knowing I have fakes.


Even buying from an authorized rep made me nervous. Haven't seen one set of comps as faked as the high energy were. I knew mine were real, but having to prove it to every Dick, Sam and Harry who I wanted to sell em to when I was done with em was a hassle. Seems I'm facing the same issue with these 165xl woofers I'm trying to sell off right now.


----------



## Elektra

Victor_inox said:


> do you have any idea how much real thing cost in bulk? I do, there is no way in hell they receive real mundorfs,wima,etc and then selling whole amplifier for $300 in retail.
> 
> You of course can believe anything you want. Companies with much better buying power such as pioneer, alpine,etc can`t afford top shelf parts in their higher end products but EOS can?




Only certain models have Mundorf caps and those caps cost $6 each of which there are 2 big ones and I think 4 small ones which probably cost $2 each they not big ticket items 

And they not $300 amps more like $800 amps I bought mine used from a guy who brought 2 over from China to see what they are about 

Those Mundorf caps are only in the crossover section so if you use a DSP and bypass the crossovers the Mundorf caps are not used...

It's all about the Elna Simic2 caps for audio and wima caps


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox

Elektra said:


> Only certain models have Mundorf caps and those caps cost $6 each of which there are 2 big ones and I think 4 small ones which probably cost $2 each they not big ticket items
> 
> And they not $300 amps more like $800 amps I bought mine used from a guy who brought 2 over from China to see what they are about
> 
> Those Mundorf caps are only in the crossover section so if you use a DSP and bypass the crossovers the Mundorf caps are not used...
> 
> It's all about the Elna Simic2 caps for audio and wima caps
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Like I said you can believe anything you want. in your post Brax cost 5000 and this one cost 300 but sounds better... :laugh:

funny part is that you truly believe in what you saying. 

It maybe a fine amplifier but don`t think anything branded in there truly is.


----------



## DC/Hertz

nineball76 said:


> Even buying from an authorized rep made me nervous. Haven't seen one set of comps as faked as the high energy were. I knew mine were real, but having to prove it to every Dick, Sam and Harry who I wanted to sell em to when I was done with em was a hassle. Seems I'm facing the same issue with these 165xl woofers I'm trying to sell off right now.


I'm thinking about getting them from you for spares, they are getting hard to find without paying retail. But I want to swap them out but tomorrow I might not want to. I would love to do my whole rebuild at one time but that's not happening.


----------



## Elektra

Victor_inox said:


> Like I said you can believe anything you want. in your post Brax cost 5000 and this one cost 300 but sounds better... :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> funny part is that you truly believe in what you saying.
> 
> 
> 
> It maybe a fine amplifier but don`t think anything branded in there truly is.




Well I sold the Brax and kept the EOS... what does that tell you...

That Brax sounded very clinical and cold - we did a listening session between a few amps of which was the X2400GE (half the platinum - mine was numbered 00) in the test we had the EOS and the 6 channel VRX amp 

Have to say nobody likes the Brax the general comments were too cold in the midrange - the best amps were the VRX and the EOS - which the general consensus amongst everyone was that they preferred the EOS

So much so the owner of the VRX sold the VRX and bought the EOS...

I personally didn't mind the VRX - very musical amp - but the EOS had more in the midrange

I shudder to mention test on this forum but it is what it is...

Today I have the Brax MX series amps - I don't have anymore EOS amps - the MX series is def a level above the EOS in detail but I have to say the EOS still has the musicality in the midbass the Brax doesn't have - but I am all about the detail these days so I went with the MX amps at the end 

I sold my brother the NOX4DSP since I had the MX amps - he needed another amp for a active 3 way front - so I gave him a EOS 2 channel AE-920T (this one has Mundorf caps) and I have to say the EOS sounded better in the midbass region compared to the NOX - for some reason the NOX didn't make the REVELATOR 18w play properly - you can see and feel the 18w moving a lot with the NOX but there wasn't that much bass impact 

When we used the EOS the bass was much more impactful and bigger so we used the EOS for midbass and NOX on midrange and tweeter 

These are my findings - and no I didn't use special equipment to absolutely match each amp - but the NOX and the EOS were similarly rated and we used both amps to the max output 

The EOS just sounded better than the NOX in the midbass section...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox

Elektra said:


> Well I sold the Brax and kept the EOS... what does that tell you...
> 
> That Brax sounded very clinical and cold - we did a listening session between a few amps of which was the X2400GE (half the platinum - mine was numbered 00) in the test we had the EOS and the 6 channel VRX amp
> 
> Have to say nobody likes the Brax the general comments were too cold in the midrange - the best amps were the VRX and the EOS - which the general consensus amongst everyone was that they preferred the EOS
> 
> So much so the owner of the VRX sold the VRX and bought the EOS...
> 
> I personally didn't mind the VRX - very musical amp - but the EOS had more in the midrange
> 
> I shudder to mention test on this forum but it is what it is...
> 
> Today I have the Brax MX series amps - I don't have anymore EOS amps - the MX series is def a level above the EOS in detail but I have to say the EOS still has the musicality in the midbass the Brax doesn't have - but I am all about the detail these days so I went with the MX amps at the end
> 
> I sold my brother the NOX4DSP since I had the MX amps - he needed another amp for a active 3 way front - so I gave him a EOS 2 channel AE-920T (this one has Mundorf caps) and I have to say the EOS sounded better in the midbass region compared to the NOX - for some reason the NOX didn't make the REVELATOR 18w play properly - you can see and feel the 18w moving a lot with the NOX but there wasn't that much bass impact
> 
> When we used the EOS the bass was much more impactful and bigger so we used the EOS for midbass and NOX on midrange and tweeter
> 
> These are my findings - and no I didn't use special equipment to absolutely match each amp - but the NOX and the EOS were similarly rated and we used both amps to the max output
> 
> The EOS just sounded better than the NOX in the midbass section...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Without double blind test your comparison is pointless.
As soon as you like what you hear enjoy the music.


----------



## Elektra

Victor_inox said:


> Without double blind test your comparison is pointless.
> 
> As soon as you like what you hear enjoy the music.




This is why I said "I shudder to say"....

But generally the car sounded better with the EOS than the Brax which my wife who is audio oblivious said so at the time...

Any rate this is pointless as I no longer have EOS so I don't really care to be honest 

I just know they offer a decent product with decent components for a reasonable price..

If I was not looking to fork out $$$ on a amp but wanted something decent - I would buy EOS...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox

Understood.


----------



## rton20s

Victor_inox said:


> Understood.


Understood?! Really? 

This is not how DIYMA works any more.


----------



## Victor_inox

rton20s said:


> Understood?! Really?
> 
> This is not how DIYMA works any more.


I understand his position,really. 
diyma works how we want it to work.
Sometimes it`s justifiable to pick a fight, sometimes it doesn`t.


----------



## DC/Hertz

So your saying the power they made produced different artifacts in the car?


----------



## chiraghbir

reading this forum in detail ... 

i would like to say i have tried many amps in past like Genesis / Mosconi As series / Rainbows & currently am running Zapco Zx200.4 . 

Also heard many amps like Tru Billets Stage 4 / Mosconi A class as well .

All i can say is just audition & then get your equipment .

I personally liked Zapco over Tru for my current listen type & type of music i like as of now . But will continue to compare Tru in future with Zapcos may be i'll start liking them .

Mosconi A class was so damn nice but can't run subs , but its a brilliant amp , but other mocosnis were big NEAH .


But Zapco Zx is my longest kept amp & will get higher end Zapcos for furture for sure you can't get a better amp for that price .


----------



## reno.sa

AyOne said:


> So I have been corresponding with Pavel @ PITI for about a week or so. I just purchased the E.O.S. AE4100.1 Bi-Amping for my wife's SUV.
> 
> E.O.S. Emotion Of Sound


So AyOne what do you think of the EOS AMP?


----------



## TommyDS

Wanna try the EA-130.4 and EX10 Verdi, but in May they were out of stock. Thanks for reminding, I am goint to write him an email regarding the stock update... How was the payment and delivery ? Did they process it OK ?


----------



## 3M*

Elektra said:


> They may be Chinese made but I owned a Brax Platinum amp - X2400GE and X2000GE and I found the EOS AE-980F a better sounding amp - how much was the Brax in comparison to the EOS
> 
> Brax was $5000 the EOS cost me $300 (albeit used)
> 
> Don't scoff at Chinese made amps... not all of them a cheap ****...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Where can one purchase the EOS AE-980F? All I see are s Chinese and russian sites


----------



## TommyDS

3M* said:


> EOS AE-980F


AE-980F is discontinued, but check AE-130.4, it is slightly modified version, that should be still available (at least I am going to purchase one) - i tried to contact the EOS directly , and received a fast answer from them - try [email protected]


----------



## Elektra

TommyDS said:


> Wanna try the EA-130.4 and EX10 Verdi, but in May they were out of stock. Thanks for reminding, I am goint to write him an email regarding the stock update... How was the payment and delivery ? Did they process it OK ?


The Verdi was a limited edition amp - I think they made 30 of them - I don’t think they have anymore...

They have a weird stock situation whereby they only replace stock when they sold all of them and they sometimes discontinue stock when they show stock on there websites...

They can be slow to get more stock in as well... 

There amps are pretty decent and I would use them over the stuff like Audison Voce’s etc and they more competitively priced 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TommyDS

Elektra said:


> The Verdi was a limited edition amp - I think they made 30 of them - I don’t think they have anymore...
> 
> They have a weird stock situation whereby they only replace stock when they sold all of them and they sometimes discontinue stock when they show stock on there websites...
> 
> They can be slow to get more stock in as well...
> 
> There amps are pretty decent and I would use them over the stuff like Audison Voce’s etc and they more competitively priced
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I received an email from EOS - due to COVID , their factory was unable to produce 130.4 and Verdi (and i think also other high quality amps), they expect another production run in 2021


----------



## Elektra

TommyDS said:


> I received an email from EOS - due to COVID , their factory was unable to produce 130.4 and Verdi (and i think also other high quality amps), they expect another production run in 2021


2021 is 12 months long.... so don’t expect anything the early parts of 2021 - if the have the Classic 100 and 50’s those are pretty nice amps and probably better than 130.4’s 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## The Italian

This being an age old argument, I won't beat this poor horse any further. I will say this because I read it in some of the most recent entries. I refuse to support counterfeit products. I deal in an industry where people get taken for tens of thousands of dollars in one purchase alone. 

I'm not the moral police so I won't tell anyone else how to live. However, fakes are often ludicrously cheap for a reason. Less frequently, it is possible because brand names inflate the value of items that are basic to reproduce. But for the most part, the components and labor to make a quality product are what they are. 

Here's a single example from my field and only discussing labor. To assemble a product in the USA, there is no comparison because there is no qualified workforce to produce the item. In Europe, it costs between $120 and $180. In China, the cost is $3. So you have to ask yourself, are the Swiss crooks or are the Chinese producing crap? I'm not generalizing. I'm discussing something I know intimately.


----------



## ocuriel

Hillbilly SQ said:


> JL HD and XD for fullrange D. Then your typical higher end a/b amps like Mosconi ZERO, Sinfoni, Helix, Zapco, and the list goes on and on. However, after running the JL XD series I can't think of a good reason to go back to a/b amps. And I used to be a diehard a/b guy even on subs. Used to run the Mosconi One series amps. They weren't anything special though.
> 
> Now, you will see people post in this thread that a watt is a watt. TOTAL BS to a point. As long as the amp is of a good design and quality parts are used that's all that really matters in the big picture. Beyond that you're just splitting hairs. The biggest issues I've had with cheaply built amps is from what seems to be a sagging power supply. I've had a quality amp rated for way less power blow the doors off of a cheaply made amp rated for a lot more. The cheaply made amp could probably do rated power for a split second, but that's about it.


Yeah I love those JL amps. Not one complaint.


----------



## Sam Spade

Pick models not brands. Although some brands may be all good sq. Helix C four and C one, Hertz HP802 are great in my experience but someone just posted a helix class D was disappointing. He downgraded from an AB Audison. 


st1nki4a said:


> Replaced Audison VRX 4.300 with Helix M Six. Everyone says there is no difference between amps, there's no difference between class AB and D .... Well i tried it and i am sorry for purchasing that Helix amp.


----------



## Sam Spade

Oh and brax is good but expensive. And this experience saved me grief:


Sam Spade said:


> I had three hertz HP802 stereo AB 330 wpc monsters and when i needed more amp channels i asked the OZ hertz distributor if i should try the hertz mille class D. He laughed at me and said once youve had the HP802 you'll never go back to class D and be happy.


----------



## Porsche

abyss


----------

