# BMW 735i Dash mounted mid/tweet 4-way upgrade...



## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Hi Guys,

I'm currently 'upgrading' my front stage, from a 8" - 1.25" to a 8"- 3.5" - 1.25"

I have wanted to run a 'full range' style midrange for a while but have moderately happy with the 8"-1.25" 2-way front stage. I have started hitting some walls with the tuning however and think that the system will need to be redesigned for me to be happy/ier with it.

I have been through a few different tweeter locations, originally in the sails, with modified factory sail pods.







Then I moved them into the factory dash mid locations firing up at the screen mounted in an MDF panel (no image) This was further refined to the current by rasing them and angling them foward towards the screen.







I've currently got some dips in the midrange, that have required a bit of EQ to bring in to line, this isn't driver issues, it's the installation and environment causing it but I'm limited in that I can't aim the 8" mids anywhere near on-axis. I'm not gonig to be able to fix this, so the addition of a dedicated midrange driver to handle 250/300hz up to meet the tweeter seems like a good option.

I have had a quick play with a NS3 mounted where the current tweeter is and initial testing showed this to be an improvement over the current 8's only, but it wasn't enough to make me jump into adding another amp and the associated extras.







I have pretty much made the decision to on-axis mount mids and tweeters and keep the 8's in the kicks along with the JBL for subass. I made a quick panel today to try locations and aiming etc to see how much of the foward vision will be impacted by the enclosures.

There appears to be a couple of possibilities that I have available, the first being a mid/tweeter baffle mounted on the dash, RH on-axis at the RH ear and LH on-axis at the LH ear (single seat tune only). I'm concerned that I can't achieve the 5-7 O'clock tweeter relative to the mid, it's more 3-8 O'clock.







The second option with the mid on the dash and the tweeter in the sail panel on the door. This has a couple of benifits I can see, the tweeters can be mounted closer to 5-7 O'clock and they can also be further out towards the window to try and widen the stage slighltly. The other benifit will be that I can mount the mids outwards towards the window a fraction more also.

I have also included a quick image of the LHS of the vehicle also, which shows that my first tweeter pods aren't all that far from where I want to aim the tweeters on that side already  Again fabrication and depth wise, the seperate sail and dash arrangement seems the best solution.

In regards to processing I won't have a full array of channels with TA and level adjustment as the new mid/tweeter's will need to be fed from the 'hi' output from the deck via an external active crossover. I will have LH and RH mid/tweeter Level and TA. Further to this I will have Tweeter-mid levels also. Being that the tweeters will be crossed over reasonably high, so I 'should' only need level adjustments here and I'm hoping that having the mid/tweeter with the same PLD's and in close proximity I should have enough control to be able to tune the arrangement.

Are there any obvious flaws in my reasoning that might make either option more suitable then the other? I'm leaning towards the second option.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Delving a little further in to this, it appears that I can in fact fit the Mid-Tweeter plate on the dash with them installed on a single panel. The panel did require a notch to be cut in to it for the door seal.

I'm a little bit undecided how I'm going to shape the 'enclosure' yet and ensure that both LH and RH have roughly the same volume, but I'll look at that tonight.

I haven't super accurately lined the panels with laser pointers yet, but I found that a sheet of balsa wood worked well to get an indication of where the baffles were pointing. I used the balsa in both horizontal and vertical planes to line the baffles up with my LH and RH ear respectively. The mids appear to be very close to on-axis and I think it's accurate enough to start fabrication with the tweaking being done once they are bolted on the dash when complete.

The tweeters I'm using have a swivel mount also so as long as the mid is accurately aligned I can tweak the tweeter very easily later.

RH Mid-Tweeter :- photo taken from RH Ear location







RH Panel Support








LH Mi-Tweeter :- photo taken from LH Ear location







LH Panel Support


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Some more images of progress on the RH Pod. All the work at this stage apart from the fibrglassing had been done with MDF and a small amount of Balsa wood all glued together with hot glue (a new use for me).

After getting the locations of the panel to the base and glueing this together with the support, I was left with the problem of covering the pod shape in order to coat with glass then smooth it. 

I ended up using little strips of 3mm MDF as you can see, bent to shape and fastened at each end. I had originally thought this would flex under the weight of stretching, but it held up well. The balsa was used around whre the pod meets the A-pillar to constrain the pod from interfering with it. 
















I intentionally left the tweeter 'cup' area unfinished as I wanted to ensure an air tight 'enclosure' for the NS3's. I may vent the enclosure into the dash at a latter date with a hole cut in to the base, but I'll see how they sound in the roughly 800ml encloruse first, I'm only asking then to play to 250/300hz. The tweeter area will be finished after the glassing of the main enclosure to ensure it's ari-tight.

You can see the fist coat of resin over the stretched grill cloth. I've lightly sanded this and will apply a few layers of glass over this. I poured the excess resin into the enclosure and rotated it to ensure that all surfaces and joins have been fully coated and sealed. I could almost fill this with water now and not have any leaks or swelling























I'm a little undecided about how to make the grill to protect the drivers yet, but I think I can make a small clip on grill paying special attention to where the drivers come out, more then likely I'll route the round openings to for a basic waveguide.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

A bit more progress the last few days after work etc.
The LH Side Framed up ready for covering.







I covered the frame with Speaker grille cloth, stretched, stapled and sewn together with fishing line in order to get a smooth neat base for the first coat of resin.







The result of the first coat of resin over the LH pod after a light sand to knock off the sharp edges.







The result after a couple of thickness' of fibreglass chopped strand matting and resin. I initially added a layer of glass over the pods, with a couple of extra thicknesses in the depressions created where the cloth has bowed between supports, But I stole an idea I saw the other day of mixing small peices of chopped strand directly into the resin mixing bowl forming a glass/resin slurry and slapped this on allowing me to create thickness very quickly and give the pods the shape without too much trouble, both pods here only had one sitting of glass applied and the glass would be up to 5mm thick in places, ie SOLID. Again rough sanding done for testing before getting 'too' carried away.














So I sealed the NS3's with some adhesive backed foam tape and fitted the little NS3 to the LH pod for some measurements outside the vehicle.
I must admit I wasn't expecting the response curve that I am getting during testing, see below.







I will be testing in the vehicle without the tweeter connected first to see what it sounds like without the tweeter, the response doesn't appear all the bad for natural response and it extends down towards 150hz.


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## arrivalanche (Jun 27, 2008)

can you post the pics rather than links? all those links are just too much work.


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## cheesehead (Mar 20, 2007)

Interesting setup. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished results.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

arrivalanche said:


> can you post the pics rather than links? all those links are just too much work.


Do they not show as images on your screen? My posts have the small thumbnail style images nestled in the text. 

How do I change this so the images are shown in the thread?
I attached them and inserted them in to the editor.


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## arrivalanche (Jun 27, 2008)

i only see one thumbnail and a lot of links


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## FrankstonCarAudio (Feb 2, 2008)

arrivalanche said:


> i only see one thumbnail and a lot of links


I can see lots of thumbnails..
Maybe your browser is at fault?

@BMW.. if you want to post bigger pics, start a photobucket or similar account (www.photobucket.com), and then link to that pic using the insert image window (copy the link from photobucket and paste in the window.. beware having too many http's tho'!)

Pods are coming along nicely BTW.. 

Mark


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Cheers Mark. I was a bit confused by arrivalanche's comment and figures it must have been formatting or the like on his machine.

I wondered if you were not logged in hence only saw the link and they won't allow you to view the images without logging on.

I had a quick listen tonight to the unfinished pods in the car, roughly aligned and sitting on the dash. I didn't have the tweeters connected, no spare amp channels jsut yet so just HP the tweeter channel at 200hz and LP the midbasses at 200hz also. Set flat on the EQ, they sounded pretty good. The imaging seemed much more coherent and focused. I may or may not have lost some stage depth, but I'll need some 'real' listening, good clean upper octave response (ie tweeters connected) and proper TA settings before I can gauge this. I suspect it will be similar if not better then it currently is.

I have also put a layer of glass over the tweeter section to complete the glassing on the pods. I got carried away, but will post come completly glassed pods a little later.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Some pictures from earlier tonight...

Pods have been fitted and given a quick coat of satin black paint in order to make them a little less obvious whilst I trial them for a few weeks before deciding whether to keep them or not.





























I managed to get a quick tune done tonight, set the TA, level and crossovers and did a really quick tune to get rid of some of the larger dips and peaks. Response had varied since testing out of the vehicle. I wasn't expecting too much variation with the pods on teh dash firing directly at each ear, but I did have some reasonable response variations.

I must admit even without the tweeters connected I am impressed. I was shuffling through some of my SQ discs and noticed elements and nuances I hadn't noticed with the old locations. I also found it easier to get enveloped in the material and had a few instances during some tracks where the vocals became eerily realistic.

The speakers show good stage depth, very good focus (ie the vocals could be pin-pointed), good width (I'd say the stage has widened out past the windows, I also expect that the width will grow slightly also when the tweeters are connected), They are slightly lacking in the top end, but this was shown through the response curves measured previously and is reflected in the response curves provided with the drivers.

So far I'm impressed, but will report back after I've spent some time with the new locations.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

No images just yet, but I tried another set of 3inch WB drivers I had last night and I must say, I'm more impressed with these little drivers then the NS3's and these are straight from the box, not run in yet.

The new set of drivers are a TangBand offering and slightly smaller then the NS3's so I needed to fabricate some adaptors. I made these from 10mm MDF so they bolted in place of the NS3's just slightly raised from the enclosure, but still sealed.

My main reasoning behind the trying these was they have better upper end response and have a sens of 88dB compared to the lowly 80dB of the NS3's. I found the level of the NS3's somewhat lacking and only having available roughly 40/45RMS/driver they weren't powerful enough.

First impressions were they are much louder, to the point where I needed to up the midbass and sub another 4/5dB each to keep up with them. Mids and highs were smoother also, but again I will need to sort out the EQ. I haven't run a response test outside the vehicle, but am thinking these will be as smooth as the NS3's outside the vehicle, but again they are showing some peaks and dips when inside the vehicle.

Upper extension was much better and could clearly been seen on RTA results, lower/mid required some lifting and some dips between 2-10khz needed some work. I am begining to wonder if these little TB drivers can be run without a tweeter at all smooth response right up to 20k...


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Well I made a little progress over the last week on the new and 'improved' pod arrangement for the TB's.

I'll be mounting them in the sails, which seems them approx 30mm foward of thier current location in the above pods, but substantially futher outwards then the current ones. I'm hoping that a trade off of bringing them slightly foward and closer to the glass coupled with the much wider location on the drivers side will add a bit more width to the stage. 

As can be sen I've mounted the TB's are far foward as the sail panel will allow, in an eclosure that has worked out to be around 250ml when roughly measured with a water filled plastic bag. 

I'm finding simpler was to build pods now and I think I could probably make a complete set of these in a good solid days work. Very similar comstruction to the other pods, but I've refined the process of glassing down to 2 steps, once I've covered the pod in speaker grille cloth, I mix up a reasonably hot batch of resin and coat the grill cloth liberally I then drop a portion of small sqaures of choppeds strand mat into the liquid resin vessel, wet it and mix it in to a wet glass/resin mass and lay it over the pod smoothing with a paint brush. It dries fairly quickly so have to work fast, but you can easily get 3-5mm thickness in the one hit. You can actually shape with the thickness also which makes filling the ribs etc easy.

Once dry I trim it all up and then mix another batch of resin to pour and swirl around inside the pods to ensure they are completly air tight and all internals surfaces are covered with resin.












































I made these one with a front diffuser to neaten the install up. I'm not sure what affect if any this will have on the sound, but I'll do some response sweeps to see if they have any effect once I wire the pod up.


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## roysav (May 21, 2008)

top builds matey.very cool in an e32.


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## kimokalihi (May 27, 2007)

Those Tangband midranges look identical to my logitech z-680 5.1 surround sound midranges for my pc. Can't tell the difference. I wonder who makes the midranges from my logitech pc speakers.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

They are Tang Band W3-832SF. See my link below for more information. I'd love to know for certain if the Logitechs use the TB's, as they are an OEM manufactured drivers, but I can't find any reference to what they are used in.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46457

*edit* Just googled, they do appear eerily similar.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

I did a quick response curve for the 250ml v's the 800ml pods. I was expecting to have a few dB increase in the 315-800hz region to save on some EQ when fitted to the vehicle.

It appears to have worked with the smaller enclosure, but I've introduced some other response concerns that I'll spend some time with packing/wadding etc to see if I can bring the response back a bit smoother. Not that this correlates to an in-car response directly.

I have initially thought it was the waveguide bumping the response but I tested the response without the waveguide fitted and the response was almost an exact overlay of the waveguide fitted response curve, so I don't believe this has any effect on the response.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Nice work! Those new pods look really clean. Keep up the good work.

Zach


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Cheers Zac.

I'll be looking at completing the passenger side this week sometime also. Undecided whether to vinyl the pod itself or paint it in a textures paint like a lot of the thread on here show. I haven't used the textured paint before, but it looks as though it would be suitable and the better choice for these pods.

The waveguide/diffuser has been finished flush with the intention of painting it, so painting both surfaces should maintain the flush finish.


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## Illusus (May 11, 2008)

I miss my E32. I get sick when I see it around town; the new owner put big stupid chrome wheels(the kind that look like they were designed by a warlock) and a fart can exhaust on it... I'm guessing that chameleon paint is next


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Illusus said:


> I miss my E32. I get sick when I see it around town; the new owner put big stupid chrome wheels(the kind that look like they were designed by a warlock) and a fart can exhaust on it... I'm guessing that chameleon paint is next


I fortunately haven't had that experience yet, my cars have mostly gone interstate so I don't bump in to them.

I'd hate to seel my car floating around with big chrome wheels on it...








Sit's a little lower at the front with the bilsteins and custom springs.


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## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

very nice...
congrats from a sister car owner.
(e34 525iT-M)


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

very cool, indeed.

i'm using similar locations off the pillars in my e39 for the mids, then the tweeters are in the oem sail location next to them for width. it places them about the same as your fist set of pods, but the tweeters are hidden behind the factory grills. i'm very happy with the result.

fwiw, i am running the mids from 150hz - 6700hz w/ 24db slopes on each side.

pics are in post #3 of this thread, if you are interested: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=915170&highlight=e39


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Very nice Benny. How do you find the stage width? With the DC's you will have more TA, level and EQ flexibility to work with for the slightly different planes for your tweeters and mids. The main reason I'm shying away from the tweeters is the associated equipment that would need to go along with it (new amp, crossover, wiring etc).

I'm still using the earlier version of the pods atm, while I finish off the latest set above for the sails. I find my stage width doesn't extend all that much further then the A-pillar on each side. I find the focus and centre image great, but I can see room to move the mids out further, especially with not having to locate a tweeter on the same plane.

I'm hoping that the new sails will give me a width that will extend to of past the side mirrors with these new pods. Tonality seems very good after some mild EQ. With my HU change I also have some additional freq centres I can employ which have helped with tuning greatly.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

I test fitted my almost completed new pods last night, LH and RH mounted off the sail panel of each door, again each respective side firing directly at the ear of the driver.

I'm a bit dissappointed with initial testing, so much so that I removed them after a quick tune revealed some concerns with the response and focus in preparation for an event this weekend.

I installed the drivers and pods onto the doors and I was happy with the way they looked etc, with a quick coat of Satin black paint. (images to come)

What I found was a much wider stage, but the centre image lacked a lot of focus. This suprised me as the drivers although in a smaller enclosure are not all that different in location to the dash pods, only further out each side towards the window. I set the TA, level and EQ quickly using my CBRTA, and instantly nocited a fair variation in in-car response with the LH/RH pods when compared to measured outside the vehicle.

Out of Vehicle Response, showing LH and RH pods, slight differences but nothing excessively large.








In car response with some basic EQ applied to BOTH channels (no indepedant L-R EQ).








And finally when I put the Dash pods back in with my previous EQ settings, similar difference?








I"m becoming a bit frustrated with this not being able to at least match LR and RH responses somewhat close. What confused me and will need some more testing when I get some time to reinstall the sail pods is that the dash pods show a similar difference in LR-RH response (also were closely matched when tested out of the vehicle) as the sail pods, but the sail pods, didn't seem to have anywhere near the focus of the dash pods.

Any suggestions on things to try in order to get my focus back? I do have an EQL with seperate LR-RH EQ's, but the bands are very limited and it has a non-adjustable Q, so I'm not sure it would be worthwhile fitting to try and resolve this.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

A couple of images of the fitted location of the pods exhibiting the above variances in response.

The driver location isn't much further back then the dash mounted pods and the RH pod is the only 'real' change in that it's roughly 100mm wider then the dash pods.

One observation I noted was that the LH Sail Pod is further back slightly when compared to the midbass, but this doesn't account for the lack of focus as I played the 3's only, and the focus didn't change, so it's coming from variations in the 3's.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

I spent a bit of time with the previously shown Sail pods, and although I had great width, I couldn't quiet get the focus right and the depth was very lacking.

I think with time I could have bettered the focus but I'm fairly confident I wouldn't get the depth to a level I'd be happy with.

I revisited my first horizontal pods made for the NS3's and using my little adapator trialled the TB 3's aiming horizontally at the dash. My stage depth came back, I did lose some width to be expected and the focus was good.

The pods were intially open bottomed, ie a 50mm diameter hole vented into the dash. They sounded nice, but a little fat and 'tubular' in the low end. I pulled the pods and did some more work to them, sealing them up and adding some basic waveguides on the front.

This got rid of the tubular sound, but it's still a little fat at the bottom end of vocals. More tuning should hopefully resolve this.

As can be seen the cone is not visible from the listening position, but you can see some of the phase lug but the stage is rellying on the reflected stage from the windscreen only from 315 hz 24dB upwards.

I do miss my Arvus tweeters as I have lost a bit of the 'airyness' they added to the system, so will no doubt at some stagesee how I can incoporate then into the system to add that openess back to the sound.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Developing this further, it appears I've managed to get hold of another PA5422 amp to drive the tweeters.

I'm thinking that I'll bridge one PA5422 2x240WRMS into the Morels and then use the other to feed the TB 3's (42.5WRMS) and the Arvus (21.75WRMS) tweeters.

My limitation is that the 'hi' output of the HU to feed both the TB's and tweets. Now this means that I don't have any TA between them. I haven't had any experience in this area, but have read that with 'high' freq ie 4khz upwards level should be adjusted and TA doesn't have much effect. If this is true then I should be okay as I'll have level adjustments.

Crossover will be taken care of by an ole Phillips 3-way active 12dB/octave I have.

My first thought is to mount the tweeters in front of the TB's, there is a panel at teh base of the windscreen that runs from one side to the other, if I remove the corner section of this I can recess the tweeters down in to this and fire them from the 'corner' of the screen behind the TB's up towards the screen. I think with this the pathlengths of the tweeter and midrange will not be all that different when the windscreen reflection distance is taken in to account.

Does anyone have any experience in this area? I originally had the tweeters in teh current midrange location firing at the screen and was happy with the top end response, the system lacked a bit in the 400-800hz region however and would break up a little between 1-2khz.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

Can you post pictures of your kick panel area? Looks really neat.

Thanks.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

I'll dig out some better shots, in these ones the vinyl looks miles off in colour, it's not 'as' bad in real life.


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## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

I do wish the e34s had those floor lights...

looks like you had to dump the side window defroster vents to fit those mids...

very creative work. Nice to know 8's would fit up front if I were so inclined.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

I didn't have any vents down in that area. The side window ones are much higher up and pass from the dash out to the doors.


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## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

I have normal vents in my doors, and defrost vents next to/ part of the dash mids (in addition to the one along the windscreen of course).


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## mda185 (Dec 14, 2006)

Wow! I applaud your creative approach to this. I have a 95 E34 525iT and have been daydreaming about doing something like this for over a year. I will also try a single driver instead of separate midrange and tweeter. Have you ever heard of Jordan Modules? E.J. Jordan makes a full range driver that is approximately 2.5" diameter (60mm?). They are hard to find in the US and are fragile if not crossed over above 250 Hz with a steep slope crossover of 24 dB/octave or better. I ask because they may enable a smaller pod design. They are expensive but supposed to be worth it when used properly. Another driver I intend to try is the 3" Hi Vi full range B3N. Parts Express in the USA was just selling them at approximately $10.00 each. 

Looking at your in car frequency response measurements, it is clear that there are some serious issues with in and out of phase sound waves between 400 and 1000 Hz. I suspect you have strong reflections off of the side windows, front windshield and headliner that are causing this. The dips and peaks correspond to frequencies with wavelengths between 1-3 feet. It is difficult to sort out exactly what is going on without even more technical data. It is perfectly normal to have a large difference between the left and right side in this frequency range. The difference is related to the different path lengths to your ears or microphone. The EQL is not going to have the power to completely smooth this out. If all you have is the EQL, try cutting the gain at frequencies close to the peaks you have measured. It is always much better to cut peaks than to try to boost dips in response.

This will get worse when you cross over to the 8" drivers at 12 dB/octave. The distance between these two drivers is close the wavelength of a 300 Hz sound wave. When your driver separation is similar to the wavelength of your crossover frequency, phase problems will always exist. If your crossover slope is 12 dB/octave, there is still considerable overlap in the sound waves coming from both drivers between 100-1000 Hz. The only way to improve the situation is to use the steepest crossover slope possible. 

Some other suggestions that may help:
1. Try to find a 24 dB/octave crossover that allows you to adjust phase between the high and low sections for your 8" to 3" crossover point. Audio Control used to make one but I think it is out of production. 
2. If you have the money and a desire to spend it, look into something like the Alpine PXE-H650 equalizer crossover unit. It is supposed to have automatic logic that can optimize the crossover freq, time delay and EQ settings for a front set up like yours. I have no personal experience with the PXE-H650 but have read positive reviews of it on this forum. I have the older Alpine H701 model and intend to use it for my install. It does not have the automatic set up but offers many of the same adjustments.
3. Look into a custom DIY crossover using Marchand Electronics 48 dB/octave kit. The Behringer digital EQ crossover that some folks have adapted for cars may also offer steep crossover slopes like this. 

I am drawing major inspiration from your efforts and am definitely going to follow your install. I am going to have to learn how to fabricate pods like the ones you have shown us.

Cheers,
Mark
95 525iT with 5 spd manual conversion 
(S52 engine in my garage waiting for transplant. I have also drawn major inspiration from reading posts by Attack Eagle on Bimmerforums.)


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Atatck Eagle, The vents circled in the image below duct into the door and out of a vent along the door card top diring at the glass near the side mrirrors. I also don't have the two that I've pointed to firing out the centre 'vent' in the dash either. I'm assuming that your car has a vent in the midrange grille on top of the dash as you mention fed from the ducting just under that. I guess the flip side is you'll be able to get suitable ducting from another E32 that doesn't have those vents fitted 









Thanks MDA185, great post. I think you might be getting slightly confused with all my previous installs and pods. I've tried many different combo's and should probably outline my latest layout. I have not done many CBRTA measurements with the system as it stands now.

I currently have the TB's firing directly up at the screen as in my last images above. They are in sealed pods and you can't physically see any of the cone fro mteh listening position (IE all sound is fired directly at the screen).

My crossover points are as follows :-
JBL Sub natural rolloff - 80hz 24dB LP 
Morel 8's 50hz 24dB HP - 315hz 24dB LP
TB's 315hz 24dB HP - natural rolloff

I sized the pods as previously mentioned to get a slight boost from 800-200hz to which I found the car needed. The response is actually much smoother now with the pods firing upwards, though it does need tweaking in this area and I've since pulled some boost from this region out of the EQ (CD7200 internal PEQ). 

The talk of the EQL was because I have it available, though not installed and I was looking at trying to employ it to get LH and RH response a little closer to equal. I'm undecided whether to install or not as I don't really want another avenue for noise to enter the system.

I have heard of the Jordans, but have had no experience with them. The little TB's cost me all of $30US delivered, so they were hard to go past as a 'starter' and they have better high extension then the B3N's from memory. I did try some Aura NS3's but they didn't have a good high freq extension.

I will definitely have to spend some more time (when I get some) retuning and tryign different methods. I have noted previously that when getting similar resultant curves from tuning for boost and tuning for cut the results sound tremendously different, so I think a happy medium will need to be found. If possible knowing the 'trouble' area I've tried to allow for this tuning deficits I have seen, ie the 200-800hz region.


Definitely post a thread up when you start your project, I've had very little success finding other people with the similar vehicles and passion.

Cheers
Ben


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## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

I'm actually thinking of going active on the Nokias, and maybe changing the mid out to a 2" dome or 2.5" cone before getting crazy. until 2 nights ago I have them running passive thru the oem xovers with 80x4 and the 2.5" mid was the only let down as the workhorse of the factory system, at least for now. It must stay stealth or it won't stay in the car for long.

Turbo... I didn't realize the e32 were so different besides the dash skin and console, e34s have your 'outer dash vent' in the door instead, and the side screen defogger with the mid. Looks like the entire IHKA and dash undersupport is completely different too.

Mark, did you unplug the rear tweeters yet to get rid of the fader/volume dependent tone shifts from them bouncing off the windscreen? 

What banana counting monkey thought forward firing roof mounted tweeters were a great idea!>?


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## syd-monster (Jan 7, 2008)

Good to see this project is still moving!! (doing an MEA update?)


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Possibly Syd, they don't seem all that interested over there and most people that are have found their way here also  

Forever moving, whether or not foward is another matter all together... I've been intentionally tuning without checking measurements for a little while now just so I can see how it measures when I dial it in by ear.


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## mda185 (Dec 14, 2006)

Ben, you are correct, I got a little confused as to what configuration you are currently listening to. It was late and I kept jumping around the thread instead of reading linearly. I see you already have implemented higher order crossover slopes. When you get around to making frequency response measurements, I will be very interested in the difference between the side firing response you measured earlier and how the current pods measure. I think I will start with something like you are currently using and use the HiVi B3N as my starter drivers. I will take response measurements with a Praxis system from Liberty Instruments. I agree, it has been rare to find someone with a vehicle like ours and the passion to do a sound system upgrade while paying attention to design details. 

Attack Eagle, I have not touched the rear tweeters yet but I agree, there is an annoying shift in timber with changes in fader. I think just further evidence that the German designer did not think we should be diverting too much attention to music, drinking coffee, or anything else that is not focused on driving. The factory sound systems are most appropriate for listening to news and weather reports. I wonder why they bothered to include a cell phone hook up in these cars? If you are thinking about an upgrade to the 2" factory mids, check out a driver made by Peerless that is on sale at Madisound Speakers. The Peerless part number is P830970. These look like they can be adapted easily to fit our stock location.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Nothing really to report, apart from taking delievery of a second PA5422 Amp (tested up fine). I actually can't wait to get 240 WRMS behind each 8 

It seems I've finally sorted out a mechanical gremlin with a complete new custom tailshaft, which means I can start getting motivated with the install again.

I have also recently located a slight 'rattle' that had been driving me nuts since first installing the W15GTi. It seems that the leather on the internal sides of the ski port 'rattles' against the foam seat backing, so I'll remove the seat and investigate how I can get rid of this.

I have a feeling it will help give me that last tiny bit of delocalisation of the sub with the very lowest of notes.


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## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

I bet it is simply Bernoulli effect sucking the leather away from the foam and slapping it back when it changes direction.

A little extra foam behind the leather to keep it taught at all times should work.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

I suspect that is exactly what it is. I drove myself nuts when I first installed the sub chasing a 'second' bass note on a certain track. In the end I decided it was the track not the sub/amp as it was evident with another sub in the install also. I'm pretty sure it will turn out to be this 'noise'.

I had thought about foam, but I don't want to buldge the area any and I can't remember what access I have in there, I'll drop the seat back out and investigate. 

I know the arm rest rattles slightly on occassion, but I'm all but fixed this.


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## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

you could try regluing the sides if they were originally glued (not familiar with e32 rear seatbacks)

I would be afeared that it would repeat itself though. A little foam should not bulge it more than a couple mm.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Cheers. Yeah, I'll have a look and see what can be done. It's all these little things that take forever. But make it that much nicer.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Unfortunatetly no photo's as it was starting to rain and had to get it back in ASAP. But I removed the car and bought some 9mm thick foam sheet. I found I could easily pull the leather up and off the little tabs that hold it in place.

I put two layers on the sides, the first layer not as wide as the second which butted in to a littel recess that would have been causing half the problems as the leather didn't actually make contact with the seat foam when held taught.

I also stuffed the top section and put a couple of layers of the 9mm foam accross all that also. In the end once tighened back up it was slightly 'puffier' but that is no noise what so-ever. 

I really have no idea how much this tiny rattle was colouring the sound. Drum tracks are even better now, you can't locate the sub at all. I've even been able to add another dB of Sub and it wasn't all that localisable like it had been on cenrtain low bass notes previous.

Now I just need some time to sit down and redesign the system to incoporate the tweeters.


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## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

thumbs UP!!!
glad it worked out to not be a huge piTN


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

So my curiosity got the better of me and I fired up the CBRTA last night to see how I'd set the tuning by ear.

I didn't take a screen shot of the previous tuning, but what I did find is that I had pulled the Midrange from about 500-2.5k down a bit over where I'd normally set it. I resisted for a little while, but then decided to do another tune with the CBRTA and see what I'd come up with. I did find that I was lacking a bit of midrange detail, which I had also found previously with some other tunes I'd completed. I also did not get a chance to test the little TB pods separately to compare against out of vehicle and in vehicle response.

I'm not sure that I've gone forwards of sideways just yet as the tune does sound more open and a bit more detailed in the mids, but it has made some guitars etc a little more in your face and I'm not certain that I like this just yet.

The response curve you can see should only be used for relative levels, not so much comparing actual levels on the graph as I suspect my calibration of levels to be out slightly. so 10dB scale might not be 10dB.









This graph as taken at a moderate listening level and has 1/3rd octave smoothing applied. Again as previously noted I found that moving the mic around small increments can make a massive difference to the perceived levels. I have yet to come up with an adequate solution in terms of setting the mic location and what the target response should be.

I've had it suggested to me that I wrap some foam around the 'omni' slots on the ECM mics in order to get some 'directionality' from them which should smooth out variances in locations. I will also be reverting back to twin mics set approx an ear span apart and average the two readings. Obviously this is no good for impulse response etc, but should be a better indication of actual response with no so many variances in response due to exacting location of the mic.


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## mda185 (Dec 14, 2006)

When designing my car audio crossovers, I take between 4-8 measurements across the front of the car all at same distance from the windshield. Number of measurements depends on size of the car. I use the average of these measurements as my baseline frequency response and then design crossover and initial equalizer settings based on this average. The theory is that the car sound field has multiple reflections that are as strong as the direct sound arrivals from the speakers. This is what causes the frequency response to change so much when you move your microphone just a little.

That said, your measurement looks remarkably smooth for speakers that are aimed at the windshield. That looks like a response that is fairly easy to tune with the right EQ. I am still interested to see what spatially averaged response will look like. I am far from having pods ready for my E34. I may try to rig something up quickly just to see what the different responses look like measured across the front of my car. I will share anything that looks interesting.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

That is my 'final' response after I have set the EQ and applied 1/3rd Octave smoothing to it. If I was to post a 1/12 or 1/24th Octave smoothed response the response would appears much more jagged.

This was with a different 'tune' but you can see that it's set at 1/24th Octave smoothing and how rough it actually is.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Well further frustration. I was reasonably happy with my tune by ear until I dragged out the CBRTA again and started tuning with it.

What I found is that I ended up pulling the MR region, ie 500-1200hz down a bit in order to get what I call a natural sound from the vocals. I found that when I readdjusted to bring these back up to a taper from Low-High response that I was lacking in this are previously. On some songs this is great and I actually prefer it, but on other songs I get a 'tube' sound to the vocals and they don't quiet sound natural.

Is this just me not being used to and having to adjust to the new sound? I have 5 EQ settings now and they all sound okay, but easily differentiable from one another when flicknig through the presets.

I have also found that when I bring this region back in to 'line' response level-wise that some electric guitars are really overpowering. Now this 'could' be the recordings (reference material is the Focal Discs) but I can't seem to pin-point the region that appears to be boosted, I've tried bringing down the following (only centre freq I have available) 400, 500, 630, 800, 1.0k, 1.25k, 1.6k, 2k, 2.5k, 3.15k, 4k and even up to 5k and 6.3k. I tried varying Q's also, but found that this affected the surrounding regions too much.

I'm not getting the results I want and am running out of ideas.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Some of you may have seen this on another haunt, but I think it's very relevant here as DIYMA was the place I first really found much detail on CBRTA 

I got a few minutes over the weekend to 'waste' some more time tuning. Yet again I've managed to develop another tune that sounds different to all my others but this was with a slightly different target response and methodology.

I'm currently trying to tune to the target response (mic measured) that I've referenced from Andy Weyemer (Thanks Andy)

I've also made a concerted effort to keep the EQ to a minimum, affording a larger margin in the 'measured response'. Previously I'd been trying to get the curve extremely smooth and match all targets, but in reality, +-3dB through the range off my target with a fairly smooth (read no huge peaks or dips) should net a decent base to build on. 

I used spatial averaging around 10 averages per plot (in the ARTA program) to try and get a good indication of what exactly is happening in the listening area. One thing I'm not currently convinced reigns true is the response of my ECM8000. I think this will need to be calibrated as I suspect it has a deficit in the 80hz and 500hz region as no matter what speakers I test whether it be in a car or in the home I find dips in the curve here.









You can see the 1/3rd smoothed response in the Blue and Left and Right Midranges 315hz/24dB HP in the Red and Purple. The difference in response from 300hz-1khz is completely due to the environment of hte vehicle, both LH and RH pods tested very closely when measured under the same conditions out of the vehicle.

I also tried another location (no images) with the current pods aimed on-axis at each respective ear of hte listener and again did a quick tune and testing. This varied from other pods I'd tried as I set the drivers on the dash, but towards the screen and right next to the A-pillar, which I hadn't tried previously. Response wasn't too bad, but the tonailty was much nicer then the upward firing pods. I did seem to lose some stage depth, but not as much as I had previously with the sail pods. Focus was better then the sail pods also, due to less reflected energy from the side windows.

I'm thinking I might build another set of pods in these locations and give them a try, probably with slightly more volume then the current 250ml pods to reduce the response bump designed in to the 
current pods to account for the vehicle response as I find I'm actually pulling this bump with the EQ with dash mounted pods. The kick panels absorb the 250-450hz region substantially, but the dash pods don't appear to have the same effect and I found without pulling this back with the EQ lower vocals sounded too 'thick'.









On interesting response in this curve is the Blue again, this was the EXACT same tuning taken with both front windows down. The Orange is with Windows up, the other are High Right, High Left, Mid Right and Mid Left as displayed in the legend.

Notice extra extension on the LH Mid, even though both have the same Crossover Frequency. I think this is partially due to the environment, but also due the RH kick panel not sealing as well as the left. I guess these will need to be reworked in the future also.


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## syd-monster (Jan 7, 2008)

cool, an update! 
Testing is never a waste. Not suprised you found such a difference with windows down etc. We used to, unofficially, call that cabin breathing (kinda like IB, but with reflections)
Back when i was installing, we used to tune with windows. One trick was to wedge a piece of foam from the window glass up against the channel so that external noise (as you would often find at comps) didn't influence the sound too much, but the cabin still breathed.
Keep going mate and will you do a MEA update?


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

BMWturbo said:


> I also tried another location (no images) with the current pods aimed on-axis at each respective ear of hte listener and again did a quick tune and testing. This varied from other pods I'd tried as I set the drivers on the dash, but towards the screen and right next to the A-pillar, which I hadn't tried previously. Response wasn't too bad, but the tonailty was much nicer then the upward firing pods. I did seem to lose some stage depth, but not as much as I had previously with the sail pods. Focus was better then the sail pods also, due to less reflected energy from the side windows.
> 
> I'm thinking I might build another set of pods in these locations and give them a try, probably with slightly more volume then the current 250ml pods to reduce the response bump designed in to the
> current pods to account for the vehicle response as I find I'm actually pulling this bump with the EQ with dash mounted pods. The kick panels absorb the 250-450hz region substantially, but the dash pods don't appear to have the same effect and I found without pulling this back with the EQ lower vocals sounded too 'thick'.


great to see you are still having fun with this!

i have similar positioning to this test - my pods are on the dash, right off the a-pillar, and pretty close to the windshield. i, too, found that i had a large bump in the ~400hz range out of the box. in my case i found that thicker instruments were drowning out the vocals in most of my music...the vocals seemed to sink to the background. i verified the large bump at 400hz with the rta, corrected it, and now have very precise, extremely focused, clear, up-front vocals that are centered on the dash. i could not be happier with the results after tuning!


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Syd :- I updated MEA yesterday also  Can you elaborate more on the foam? I'm visualising a foam panel in place of the window that absorbed reflections from the drivers rather then reflecting such as glass would. I don't think this would be well accepted either by MEA nor the local enforcement  I do like the concept though and I've been thinking about building a 'wall' that woulc be covered in absorbant material to try and be able to 'direct' the sound away from the side windows. I haven't seen this done and there is probably a godo reason for this, but I'm thinking some form of small barrier between the midrange and side window on each side would stop off-axis reflections from the windows.



benny z said:


> great to see you are still having fun with this!
> 
> i have similar positioning to this test - my pods are on the dash, right off the a-pillar, and pretty close to the windshield. i, too, found that i had a large bump in the ~400hz range out of the box. in my case i found that thicker instruments were drowning out the vocals in most of my music...the vocals seemed to sink to the background. i verified the large bump at 400hz with the rta, corrected it, and now have very precise, extremely focused, clear, up-front vocals that are centered on the dash. i could not be happier with the results after tuning!


I was flicking through your thread the other day Benny and had a good look at your pillars. I had previously tried on around, under, over and in the dash  but hadn't tried pushing them towards the screen off the dash as my last dual pod build I tried to keep the tweeters wide an in the exact same plane as the mids which meant they were towards the edge of the dash, rather then the front of it. 

I'm also thinking I might retry some of my first tweeter Sail panels in conjunction with the new mids even though they won't be in the exact same plane as the midranges, I'm hoping that I'll cross them high enough (read 5Khz + ) to be able to adjust levels rather then need seperate TA for them as I only have 6 TA channels available and find that my sub does require a delay compared to the front stage to blend correctly.

One thing I won't be happy with is if the vocals are only on the dash. I really don't like the sound being so close in front. I find that I only like the stage when I can visualise the instruments/drum kits/singers well passed the windscreen, with a stage 'on' the dash I feel like I'd looking down on the stage from above and I'm not really comfortable with that. I found with my sail panel mid enclosures that the stage was on the dash but not forward of it and this drove me nuts it was too 'in your face' for me.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

i'm sorry, i probably should have worded that differently. my vocals aren't "on the dash" so much as they are "above the dash". looking ahead while driving, they are just in front of me (centered). i do not feel like i am looking "down" on the concert at all, rather straight ahead.

i would not say that the stage extends beyond the boundaries of the car - in any direction. that was actually something i was shooting for: a stage beyond the windshield (on the hood) and wider than the side windows. it did not happen.  i think the only way to get beyond the physical boundaries is with more physical distance to the speakers...which puts the mids back down in the kicks. ...which usually (but not always) makes for a lower stage than i prefer (gets back to your "looking down on the concert" description).

now this isn't to say it can't be done with dash-mounted mids. i would love to see you succeed! and if you do, i'm going to copy what you did.  i really love the dash-mounted mids, but do wish the stage was bigger. i just came to accept the fact that this is a car i am dealing with and that something would have to sacrifice.

now if we are talking a purpose-built vehichle, we could go so far as to reconstruct the dash such that the speaker locations were physically beyond the firewall...now THAT would be cool...!!!   

btw - i can confirm...ta on anything above ~2.5khz is worthless. i have my tweeters crossed at 6700. mids are playing everything from 150hz to 6700hz...and they do it excellently!

cheers!
- ben


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## brianlin87 (Dec 9, 2007)

great job here


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

benny z said:


> i'm sorry, i probably should have worded that differently. my vocals aren't "on the dash" so much as they are "above the dash". looking ahead while driving, they are just in front of me (centered). i do not feel like i am looking "down" on the concert at all, rather straight ahead.
> 
> i would not say that the stage extends beyond the boundaries of the car - in any direction. that was actually something i was shooting for: a stage beyond the windshield (on the hood) and wider than the side windows. it did not happen.  i think the only way to get beyond the physical boundaries is with more physical distance to the speakers...which puts the mids back down in the kicks. ...which usually (but not always) makes for a lower stage than i prefer (gets back to your "looking down on the concert" description).
> 
> ...


Thanks Ben, Great response.

I currently have a stage that extends past the windscreen with the horizontal mid pods. I wouldn't say it extends much past the mirrors on either side, but it does push out to the side glass. I realise I will lose some of this and this is why I'm trying to get as much distance between the listener and the drivers. I lost a bunch of depth with the previous on-axis pods, but with the sail pods had a massive stage width, but I felt as though I was amongst the stage, not looking at it.

I'll investigate tweeters further from the sounds of it if I can get away with level adjusting only over 3+kz.


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## syd-monster (Jan 7, 2008)

BMWturbo said:


> Syd :- I updated MEA yesterday also  Can you elaborate more on the foam? I'm visualising a foam panel in place of the window that absorbed reflections from the drivers rather then reflecting such as glass would. I don't think this would be well accepted either by MEA nor the local enforcement  I do like the concept though and I've been thinking about building a 'wall' that woulc be covered in absorbant material to try and be able to 'direct' the sound away from the side windows. I haven't seen this done and there is probably a godo reason for this, but I'm thinking some form of small barrier between the midrange and side window on each side would stop off-axis reflections from the windows.


 Hey mate, MEA down at the moment. But i'll reply here anyway.
The foam we used to use was a black strip the lenght of the upper curved section of the glass (so about 60cm, pending on each car). The cross section was about 3cm square. We would wind the window down, tape the foam in place on the seal and then wind the window back up carefully to only just squezze the foam in place. This was purely for competition use, not drive around like that. It was again to just releive pressure in the cabin, the gains were marginal but you also allowed much sound to enter the car, in a comp scenario that means many others sounds (exhaust & spl'rs) would make things harder for the judges to judge your car. BTW this is all back in the mid 90's.
As for foam on surfaces/windows many times has this been experimented. In fact I recall Davyhay on the Hybrids forum doing some testing in his M3 BMW with masses of it. So go for it!! I wouldn't worry about what MEA say or dont, this is your own car and as long as its for testing, who are we to stop you.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Ahh Cheers syd.

I noticed a massive boost centred around 30hz with the sunroof popped up. You can see it also in the plot with the windows down, it's actually going off the graph so probably 6dB + gain 

I'd kind of invisaged as you mention the thread re lining the interior of the M3 with Acoustic tiles but understnd what you mean now and would have to 'retune' to counteract the effects it would have on response. 

I dug out my tweeters last night but will put that side of things on hold until I've taken care of some other projects that require priority atm.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Got a surge of inspiration tonight and decided to have another look at some on-axis pods, but this time setting them back as far as I could without impacting on the visbility too much.

I have also made the decision that I will be venting the new pods into the dash through the 50-60mm factory modrange hole. This was decided upon when I opened the previously sealed pods to vent into the dash early in the week and found the sound to be more 'open' for want of a better way to describe it.









I pulled the drivers side pods off and cut some basic rings that I could muck around with and see if I could achieve what I'd wanted.









I think I've ended up settling on what you see below. I'm yet to decide what shape to make the pods and as can be seen the pods only partially sits over the midrange hole in the dash to which I'll be venting.
I'll most likely put a small 3mm panel in front of the driver and smooth it up to the dash level in a slightly concave shape to try and vaguley direct the sound smoothly.

I had a quick listen with the driver as you see and a towel behind it. This was the only difference to the previous pods, settings etc were exactly the same and I think that I could notice the difference instantly when compared to the upward firing pod. I'll finish up this drivers side and then do similar to the passenger side, but obviously on-axis for the driver only and hopefully with the drivers sitting the 100-125mm further back then the previous on-axis pods will get my depth as well as the benifits of the much nicer response and openness of the venting.


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## dkm201 (Nov 29, 2007)

Keep us updated! This thread is relevant to my interests.

Also -- how much volume do you think your midrange pods had when they were sealed?


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

dkm201 said:


> Keep us updated! This thread is relevant to my interests.
> 
> Also -- how much volume do you think your midrange pods had when they were sealed?


Sealed pods were roughly 200/250ml, hard to say how much volume the basket/motor of the driver took up.








Wow, look how much the cones have changed colour from being in the sun.

I did this to try and add a bump in the lower response region that I was seeing a dip with my 8's in the kicks. Turns out it wasn't the right thing to do as even vented into the dash I'm pulling a good 3/4dB from this region with the pods on the dash. The environment was creating the dip in this region and when moving drivers to the dash, this no longer became of concern.

The new pods I'll try and keep roughly the same size to give the drivers some room to 'breath' and also because the port will be so close to the rear of the driver. I'll also be stuffing the enclosures as I found they need it to make the sound more natural and less 'nasaly'. 

I did have a good look at the possibility of sinking the driver into the dash up towards the screen and creating a vague waveguide to direct the sound, but I don't really want to chop up the dash just to try it.


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## Silver2003srt4 (Jan 3, 2009)

holy wow


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

I took a slightly different approach with making these pods due to the final shape that I wanted. I wanted convex curves with these pods rather then the concave style curves of previous pods.

So I decided to try something different to how I'd normaly fabricate them with strips of bent mdf, and carved the shape I wanted from laminated white foam blocks. I used an old esky lid and hot glue to glue the layer together, before gluing it temporarily to the 'frame' and carving the shape.























As the white foam will dissolve when polyester resin comes in contact with it, so I covered the foam plugs in masking tape to stop the resin eating the foam and layed some glass over the plug/frame.

Turned out reasonable, pods aren't yet completed but they are in for testing after which time if I'm happy with them I'll finish them off properly. 






























As you can see I've added a section in 'front' of the pods to fill the depression from the factory grille. I intend to fill this with some material to absorb the sound and hopefully not create too much reflection. I have some acoustic foam here designed for fitting inside computer cases to supress noise, so I might try that.

The pods 'vent' into the dash through the factory mid hole as seen in my previous post. I tried to make both vents as close to the same size as I could and fitted a 200mm square acoustic foam tile inside the dash under the vent to absorb some energy and try and deter rattles.

First impressions are much better then my previous 'on-axis' pods. I have a nice focused stage and have removed all previous EQ aside from pulling a little at 500hz. I still have reasonable depth, approx the same width, I 'may' have lost a little height, but as I haven't spent any time tuning yet, I might be able to get some of this back when I rejig the MB-FR time alignment.


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## mortele210 (Apr 30, 2008)

This Thread is great btw, its given me more info on building dash pods then any other build log on DIYMA.

Keep us posted!!!!


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

mortele210 said:


> This Thread is great btw, its given me more info on building dash pods then any other build log on DIYMA.
> 
> Keep us posted!!!!


Glad I can help. I'm still searching for the best way to make pods in the shortest time. I've tried a few different ways and all have thier benifits.

The passenger side pod there I completed to it's current stage in about 6-8hours yesterday. Obviously not solid work as I had to wait for resin/glass/bog to dry in amongst that. I think using 'older' resin added to the time also as it took a while to cure.

I forgot to mention the fact that I also lined the pods with an acoustic tile, leaving the vent free. I also added a permiter of 6mm wide closed cell foam under the base to seal it against the dash when screwed into place. Obviously the drivers have similar on the back of basket face also.


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## syd-monster (Jan 7, 2008)

As per MEA, saw these updates. Thought I'd chime in here too.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Thanks Syd.

I dug out the RTA last night to double check my by ear impulse response and try and nut out why some 'centre' images were slightly off centre to the drivers side.

I didn't take any screen shots as I couldn't achieve what I wanted with what I had available. I did however manage to identify that I'd 'intellegently' reversed the phase on my left MB when chasing a rattle the other week.

I initially realised this when my first RTA sweep (All tests performed with 10 spacial averages accross the listening position) showed a mess between 80-300hz, which was previously a nice smooth transition. Then when Impulse response/TA checking I noticed the initial peak when down rather then up showing the driver was out to phase with the rest of the system - easily rectified and then I had my smooth response curve back.

I spent a little bit of time flattening the sub response out also, by performing a narrow Q cut at 31.5hz.

On to the MR's. After setting T/A, only had it 0.2ms out as a pair, I went about adjusting the EQ for a smooth curve. I have some peaks and dips beteen 1250-4000hz which I managed to correct with a couple of PEQ bands. I also had a ragged response from 400-800hz with a 'peak' running from the 315hz LR24 crossover up to about 800hz.

I thought about this for a while and rather then cutting 500 like I had previously I tried raising the crossover to 500hz LR12 HP this did the trick and blends well with the 315hz LR24 giving a nice smooth tranisition.

I am fairly confident this is the bext I've had this system sounding, but I still had the issue of the cometimes off-centre 'centre' image. I tested LH and RH MR's independantly and compared the response curves. It was isntantly clear what the culprite was. I was getting differing responses in the 400-800hz region from L/R.

Now to eliminate the new pods, I did a sweep of each pod with the mic approx. 250mm from each driver on-axis and the response curves were VERY similar with only a slight variation through the range. BOTH L/R showed good response in the 400-800hz region.

It's the envorinment reducing the 'percieved' output at the listening position. The only way I can see to rectify this (without resorting to shaping response using different enclosures L/R) is to get my DQX into the system to give me independant L/R EQ. I'm fairly confident that I'll be able to bring the region back to relatively equal levels using the 400/500/630/800 bands.


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## syd-monster (Jan 7, 2008)

Good that you found an easy fix for that out of phase MidBass. I dont mind trouble shooting, when you find its a simple fix!

What do you think is causing the jump at 31.5Hz? Perhaps Fs of the sub/cabinet/cabin??

Just a word of advice if you do go independant EQ for L & R channels. Make sure that overall you don't cut so much that levels stray. You can start chassing your own tail like that sometimes (I know I have ).

*One last question, is this a 1 seat car? Im thinking, yes by the on-axis style set ups you've had.

But also you mentioned this is the best you have had the car sound, how much more do you think you can get from it before the law of diminishing returns takes a tight grip?


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

I didn't 'really' notice the midbass phase. I hadn't really been listening with too much concerntration, I stumbled accross it in my testing

I think the peak is due to cabin gain I also don't have accurate resolution down to 20hz to say wether it was still evident there or not, but with a slightly wider Q filter I've got almost dead flat response from 20-80hz at which point I've started to slope down. I notice a peak around 30/35hz when I open the sunroof. I noticed the same gain in my partners Aristo when I had the sunroof popped up.

With the EQ I'm confident I'll get away with a 2/3dB gain on the LH and 2/3dB cut on the RH in order to keep the overal level the same, but get the L-R balance in line. I'll have 31 bands (1/3rd Octave) for each side which will affect both the MR and Tweeter (if I fit them).

One seat system only. I don't see the point in 'compromising' for a 2-seat system. I also know that if I get a single seat system to a level I'm happy with, it would drive me nuts knowing that I've compromised for a 2-seat system  I won't discount this down the track, but I'm concentrating on single for the time being until I've achieved what I want with it.

I don't think there are leaps and bounds to be made, but I'll complicate the system to see if I can improve on it further.

Long weekend is looming and I think I've decided today that I want to rework the boot to fit another Eclipse PA5422 (will allow me to bridge one to send 240WRMS to the 8's and the second 42.5WRMS to the mids and 21.25WRMS into the tweeters) and then the AC DQX for EQ and MR-TW crossover duties.


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## syd-monster (Jan 7, 2008)

Ah yes, long weekend! Go for it mang.

BTW, MOAR PICS!


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Had a quick look tonight to trial up where I want to put the extra amp and processor.

The Eclipse's unfortunately are a larger amp, measuring roughly 330x300mm which means they take up a bit of real estate.

I decided that I wanted to move the current PA5422 to mirror the extra PA5422 I'm fitting, one each side of the sub. I was hoping I'd be able to add a little pocket on each side of the sub to store some work items etc, but it appears I won't be able to do this whilst maintaining decent access to the amps controls on the end.

Anyways some images of what I've decided to do. I'll leave the DA7122 on the RH side 1/4 panel and put the DQX where the current PA5422 is residing on the LH side 1/4 panel.

I whiped together some frames to suit the amps and will be using some new panels (16mm MDF) replacing the current templates to slide down each side ot the sub. The frames will be attached to the panels and I'll run a gusset up the back to strengthen them.























I also took an image of the rear seat back showing the 6 mounting plates for the Infinite Baffle. I'll be gluing some egg crate foam to this to wedge between the seat back and panel as I have a slight rattle at high levels that's driving me nuts. I'm also contemplating filling the void between the Fibreglass 'cone' and the MDF angles sides to try and stiffen this area slightly and reduce chance of resonances. I guess I could apply some dynamat to this cone also which might not be a bad idea.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Some progress with getting the amp brackets sorted. They will be able to slide into place bside the sub box as shoen in previous post and should be able to be moved back when the trim panels are removed to gain easier access to the amp connections.

Adjustments on the opposite end to the connectors so this is very easy to access.
















More to come as I get it done.


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

Those pods remind me of the ones that Earl Zausmer had back in the day


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

HondAudio said:


> Those pods remind me of the ones that Earl Zausmer had back in the day


I researched his systems a while back, but hadn't realised how similar I'd ended up after many different pod locations and styles.

It does look pretty close to his first install with the B&W's and 13's in the kicks.


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

BMWturbo said:


> I researched his systems a while back, but hadn't realised how similar I'd ended up after many different pod locations and styles.
> 
> It does look pretty close to his first install with the B&W's and 13's in the kicks.


I spent some time listening to his first system back in 1998, before he changed everything. As you will likely recall, his first system - the one that won him all the awards - had the elevator pods, the 13s in the kicks, and the Milberts and the Zapco amp. That's the one I listened to, before he ripped all that out and had the weird 7" pods hanging off the dash and the 15s in the floor which ate all the footroom.

Anyway, his first system is the inspiration for what I would like to eventually do in my Scion xB


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Some more progress.

I still have some panels etc to make and modify and then I'll look at covering the panels in vinyl.

I've since cut out the windows in the panels in front of the amps. I'll finish the unions between the panels when I get hold of my router again hopefully tomorrow. I also need to get some more MDF to create a trim panel around the sub to 'tie' the new trim panels in place.
















I did mange to get it all wired up, but for some reason my HU's amp trigger decided to give up the ghost  so I've temporarily wired the triggers from the vehicle Aux.









First thoughts with a quick tweak in the 400-800 hz region are that I think this will have been worth the effort. I haven't connected the tweeters yet, I want to see how I go without them for the time being, but I have the wiring all fitted etc to run them, if I still deem I need them.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Some more images showing some of the details to hold panels in place etc.

I still need to get more wood etc to finish off the trims panels, namely the floor and an internal trim around the DQX. I also need to trim the panels in vinyl and I have to open up the RHS window to match the size of the other windows.

I'm also trying to work out exactly to level match with the DQX. I've never had an input and output level with an 'overload' LED before. It's making it a bit tricky to set the levels so that I'm not limiting my volume with a lower level dynamic recording.

I can get the input LED to flash with the music with the HU not clipping and the inpuot gain around 60-75%. When I match the ouput level to the same I'm finding that I'm only happy with the silence in quiet passages on about 25% gain on the amp, but I'm not confident that I'm getting as much level from the system as I could.

Anyways, some images


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## Wonway (Jun 9, 2009)

Sweet. Can't wait to see it finished!


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## syd-monster (Jan 7, 2008)

sorry to drag the tangent, but Earl's 5-series is the reason I got into SQ. I remember watching his build page years ago! He had a build web site just for the car. Those automated pods in the dash were fantastic!
If either of you have link to that first build, please post.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Syd, I still have the original copy of CA&E with his red 5-series motorised pod install features in it 

This is the best link I have for his systems.

Tube Amplifiers by Milbert Amplifiers


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

BMWturbo said:


> Syd, I still have the original copy of CA&E with his red 5-series motorised pod install features in it
> 
> This is the best link I have for his systems.
> 
> Tube Amplifiers by Milbert Amplifiers


Wanna scan that magazine for us, buddy?


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

HondAudio said:


> Wanna scan that magazine for us, buddy?


I would, but it's already in the jpg's on that link the Feb '95 issues with the McIntosh on the cover.


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## rkb993 (Apr 10, 2009)

Nice glass work. I personally find the pods to be a little visually intrusive, but the sound plots make it seem worth while.


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

BMWturbo said:


> I would, but it's already in the jpg's on that link the Feb '95 issues with the McIntosh on the cover.


What? Where? URL plz


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## zoomski (Feb 11, 2008)

nice lookin bmw interior... me likey


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Cheers Guys... 

Here's the link again HondAudio :- Earl Zasumer

The pods definitely are a bit obtrusive. Not so much when you are in person however, unless I'm just used to them of course I haven't spent any more time tuning, but I'm grinning currently when I drive the car, so that's a good sign...

Got a little bit more done this weekend :-

Made the 12mm thick trim panels for the sub, that also holds the 4CH amps beauty boards in place.

Finished up the 6mm floor plate it's made from 3 parts so that it can be removed from the car and will apear as a single peice when installed.

Got most of the trimming done tonight, but still have some work to do around the boot hinge reliefe and the trim board for the DQX.


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## syd-monster (Jan 7, 2008)

as per MEA, just classy! Really like the whole basic black look of it. Nice and obviously, retains most of the boot space too.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

I'm not one for too much bling etc, I prefer things to be neat tidy and functional.

My slight concern is the sub is a little exposed, I sometimes drag around gearboxs and turbo's ec in the boot, so I'll have to make sure I have something to protect is from getting clobbered.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Managed to get the inner trim panel made for the DQX finished tonight. It's fairly basic, being cut from 3mm MDF and having 6mm MDF side strips glued and dowelled (I didn't have any little nails so used little wooden dowels to it.




A couple of little strips of Neoprene rubber top and bottom to hold it snuggly in place and eliminate any chance of rattles. Gave it a quick lick of black with some chrome fleck over the top.




A little detail of the lifting strap to lift the smaller side floor panel to remove the floor from the boot.



And the overall, with only the boot hinge opening to address.


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## syd-monster (Jan 7, 2008)

Nice work on the Audiocontrol trim. Touch with the rubber for rattles.



> with only the boot hinge opening to address.


Threw that last bit in aye?


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

syd-monster said:


> Nice work on the Audiocontrol trim. Touch with the rubber for rattles.
> 
> Threw that last bit in aye?


To remind myself to complete it, else I know I'll just leave it as it is


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## Problemhouston (Apr 2, 2009)

BMWturbo said:


> Cheers Guys...
> 
> Here's the link again HondAudio :- Earl Zasumer
> 
> ...


I got a chance to listen to Earl's BMW at the 95 or 96 IASCA Finals. From the drivers seat it was AMAZING!!! If I recall correctly I listened to the larger speaker in the dash version.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

I had a little free time tonight, so I dragged out the CBRTA rig and did some testing to try and level match the Left and Right response, seeing as I had seperate EQ now with the DQX.

I had previously set the L-R EQ in the 400-800hz region as I knew there was a discrepency in response from side to side.

Testing the response showed that I had it somewhere near it, but still had room for improvement, so I started my 'Whack a Mole' session.

I've attached a screen shot showing the Left and Right, MB and FR response/level, the sum of both sides, and then finally with the sub added. Slight variations can be seen in the upper region of the response curve due to measuring errors. But I seem to have come up with a fairly repeatable system using spacial averaging.



Overall I'm pretty happy with it for the time being, I know I'll find issues with it the more I listen, it's inevitable, but for now it sounds more focused and the upper octaves seemed to have 'opened' up giving some more spaciousness to the sound.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Had some motivation tonight to get around to connecting my tweeters up finally. I was persisting with the TB's as a true full range driver, but couldn't get as smooth a top end response asn I wanted. They were a little harsh and turned a little sour when pushed hard.

I'd tossed up a few ideas on loications for the tweeters, finally deciding on what you see attached.
It was a fairly simple addition, all the infrustructure was in place, wires, RCA's etc all run, all I needed to do was connect the speaker wires to the amp and adjust the DQX to split the signal between the TB's and the Tweeters. I'd made an allowance for the tweeter mounting panel with the pods when I first made them, so a simple 6mm MDF panel was fabricated and a steel bracket bent and attached for the tweeters to screw onto.






I have some 4/5mm thick acoustic foam, designed to absorb the sound of computer fans when installed inside the computer case, that I'll be using as a small acoustic 'matt' that will hide the screw and hopefully reduce reflections from the lower panel on each pod. 

Sound Absorption Mat for Equipment - Jaycar Electronics


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## bigaudiofanatic (Mar 1, 2009)

arrivalanche said:


> can you post the pics rather than links? all those links are just too much work.


X2 you need to actually post them.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

bigaudiofanatic said:


> X2 you need to actually post them.


I believe its your browsers guys. They show up as thumbnail pics on most peoples screens and clicking them gives the full sized photo. 


Great work sir. I can appreciate all of the time and trial/error testing you've done. Very well done.


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## mda185 (Dec 14, 2006)

It may be the email servers. When I try to view this thread at work, the pictures and links are blocked. When I view them at home, the picture thumbnails are visible and clicking them brings up the full size picture. The external picture links also work seamlessly at home.

Ben, which tweeters are you using and at what frequency are you crossing them over? I am still following this thread with great interest and finally starting to build something inspired by your efforts. I am using the Fountek FR88EX full range drivers without tweeters for my first try. The pods are going in my family hauler, a 2001 Pathfinder first. My BMW will come later.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Sorry Guys, I tried not to attach too many photo's to Diyma so that Ant had to have space to host them. They are loaded onto ImageShack and linked via thumbnails into the thread.

Thanks for the comments, it's a labour of love I guess you could say. It seems you can often move 'forward' in the one area you are trying to, but a side effect is that you can actually move backwards in another area.

My tweeters are from ARVUS. I don't believe ARVUS make them anymore however. You may remember that Abmolech had a set of drivers made by ARVUS that he was/is using in his vehicle.

Currently they are crossed at 5k LR24 (the only slope I have available). I have many centre frequencies I can try, but 5k sounded the best based on no EQ and level matching by ear. 

I have been very interested in peoples findings with the Fountek and have been looking at them also. They do however have a large motor assembly which I think will foul on my pods, so I can't do a swap-over trial unfortunately.

One thing I do think happens and happened to me was that I ran the TB's full range and TBH they sounded great at first, but the more time I spent with them Full Range, the more I felt they lacked in the top end when compared to a tweeter. They also seem to strain a little when leaned on making the higher octaves seem a bit harsh. I have put this down to my expectations of how a 'full range' driver 'would' sound and I was pleasantly suprised how well they played the upper ocatves, but after time it became apparent I needed to add a tweeter to be happy for critical listening. I think for everyday commuting I would be happy enough, but I wasn't getting the high end smoothness and extension I wanted when listening stationary with engine off.

I look foward to seeing your build pics and thoughts on the On-dash FR


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

looking good. any chance you tried the tweeters out further? like where the sail panel pods for the other mids are? thinking you might be able to eek out some more stage width...

cheers!
- ben


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

Benny:- I didn't push any further with the tweeters being further out. I had thought about it but then became concerned with having drivers at different centres to eachother and the potential issues that might cause with far left and far right stage focus. I also lack the ability to level adjust the tweeters L-R and I have no control over T/A they are driven from the same channel as the MR's only split into respective bands via the DQX. So I have tweeter-MR level LR fixed and also a L-R level and T/A adjustment as a L and R 'set'.

I may have a look into this in the future, I'm still not 100% happy with the tweeter locations and I'm contemplating making another set of guides for the MR's and recessing the tweeter into them in the centre top slightly hanging over the MR's cone. This should give me the same horizontal stage width as the MR's. I'm trying to keep all three drivers very close to in-line with a vertical plane in order to keep coherency. This may or may not be required, but it seems to be a decent target.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

A long time since my last update, hadn't really done much with it really. Resolved the whine issue, it was a crook connection on the RCA's (not my RCA cables, but to the Amp).

With a bit of an 'impulse' buy the other month I reworked the pods a little bit from the unfinished standard they have been for over a year now 

This is the drivers side as it was for a while now, not satisfied with the finish, the wire for the tweeter running down the outside of the pod and the 'cowl' for the tweeter was only held on with double sided tape. The flash does make it look worse in images than it does in person however.


















The passenger side. Attached the tweeter 'cowl' and spent some time hiding the wires, blending it all together nicely generally tidying up. Gave the cone a very light coat of black also, they were originally black, but faded to yellow. Primed the pod and face ready for sand and final finish. Thinking I'll paint it in a texture type finish in satin black to blend in to the interior again.


























Vent in the bottom of each pod sealed to and fires in to the dash.










These also fit, but I need new face plates to fit them and not in any particular hurry to get them in.


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

*more time* I spent a couple of hours on the other and gave both a coat of satin black paint so that I could refit them and not have the primer/filler yellow in the car.


































*more time* I've also now got one of these...










... and after running a 4th RCA cable for the tweeters, have bypassed the DQXS am currently going through the process of re-tuning. Another couple of years of tweaking and I might be somewhere near where I want to be


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## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

looks good man


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

This final version of your a pillars remind me on a pillars I did for a friend a few years ago


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

Do set-ups like this have any midrange diffraction issues due to the tweeter hanging over the mid like that?


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## bigaudiofanatic (Mar 1, 2009)

arrivalanche said:


> can you post the pics rather than links? all those links are just too much work.


Ya it drives me nuts to!!!:surprised:


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## BMWturbo (Apr 11, 2008)

HondAudio said:


> Do set-ups like this have any midrange diffraction issues due to the tweeter hanging over the mid like that?


Not that I can detect. MR is crossed at 5k which means a 43mm wavelength so I've made sure to cross below where I thought this might have an effect. 

Having said that I've run the 3's in FR and had the tweeters off and not really noticed any issues.

Some felt I have on the back of the tweeter might or might not assist.


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