# I know that amplifier capacitors have been hashed to death, but I think that I have a little fresh input.



## kattan_tha_man (Feb 2, 2021)

From what I've read, the overwhelming consensus is that they are worthless. One aspect I have not heard mentioned is maximum discharge rate. 

I agree with what people say. Not gonna do **** for your dimming lights - agreed. It's surprising how many trusted companies still say that ****. 

I couldn't find numbers unfortunately, but say you were able to put a perfect zero ohm load on a car battery. According to ohms law, the discharge rate would be infinite, but we all know that doesn't happen. The amperage builds until it hits the maximum discharge rate of the battery. The chemical reaction can only happen so fast and there is a physical limit to how much amperage can exit the positive terminal. The higher the amperage gets, the hotter the internal "wires" in the battery get causing the resistance to go up until the resistance overcomes the electrical pressure pushing amperage out. 

I hope I explained ok, but to sum it up, a battery will discharge a burst that will taper down until it reaches equalibrium. I hate not being able to find hard numbers, but the limit is a lot lower than I think most people suspect. I have had hundreds of batteries on an old school professional load tester and the highest amperage output I have seen is in the 275-285 amp range for the initial burst and a taper down to about 145 - 160. average is about 2/3 of that. 

Assuming an 85% efficiency, a 3500 watt amp could overcome the burst and a an 1800 watt amp could overcome the continuous taper down. Pretty big amps, but very common.

Capacitors are very different. Just two charged metal plates and no chemical reaction to slow the current flow, not to mention they usually sit right next to the amplifier.

Now say your 3500 watt amplifier is asked to play a loud deep bass note for say a second, It would initially see proper voltage then almost immediately see insufficient voltage until the batter could recover. With a higher discharge rate capacitor, that voltage drop would be delayed or even denied if the cap is big enough.

My theory is that A capacitor would smooth out these voltage drops. I know an amp starved for power would destroy the impact and authority of that bass hit. 

Caps don't do **** for dimming headlights.

With their higher discharge rate and proximity to amplifier prevent voltage drops a help to make sure every single bass hit has the impact it should, leading to much more musical and precise bass.

Sorry if I over explained and thanks for reading.

I am genuinely curious to hear other people's thoughts on this theory.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

kattan_tha_man said:


> From what I've read, the overwhelming consensus is that they are worthless. One aspect I have not heard mentioned is maximum discharge rate.
> 
> I agree with what people say. Not gonna do *** for your dimming lights - agreed. It's surprising how many trusted companies still say that ***.
> 
> ...


First off, I didn't even know this forum section existed ? You might get more responses on the general section.

But anyways, this video




 shows exactly how much (or how little) old school capacitors actually help. IMPO, they are not good for much.
Super capacitors, or Ultra capacitors, on the other hand, are freaking awesome ! 
Yes, they will absolutely stop headlights, dash, or other lights from flickering, but that just the start of it.
Even more importantly, they will give your amplifiers more dynamic headroom for kick drums and such, to a level which is completely audible. They will also greatly reduce the strain on your electrical system. 
Love my 500 farad Xs Power super capacitor 🙂
I believe in supercaps so much, that I would not even bother with extra batteries. I'd rather make more juice to begin with, by adding more / stronger alternators, then feed it as fast as my amps can drink it with supercaps 🙂


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## kattan_tha_man (Feb 2, 2021)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> First off, I didn't even know this forum section existed ? You might get more responses on the general section.
> 
> But anyways, this video
> 
> ...


Thank you for your thoughts and the video. I love exo but somehow missed that one


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Interesting but not many people here have 3500 watt sub stages. Go with an Mmats M series wich is a super efficient class D and cut the demand down on the car’s electrical and maybe you don’t need a $500-$800 super capacitor. A good amplifier should have enough capacitance to handle high transient demands anyway.


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## kattan_tha_man (Feb 2, 2021)

JCsAudio said:


> Interesting but not many people here have 3500 watt sub stages. Go with an Mmats M series wich is a super efficient class D and cut the demand down on the car’s electrical and maybe you don’t need a $500-$800 super capacitor. A good amplifier should have enough capacitance to handle high transient demands anyway.


Thank you very much for the advice, but this was a thought exercise for me. I'm only going to run about 1200 max. The stupid capacitor I have taunts me every time I see it.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

JCsAudio said:


> Interesting but not many people here have 3500 watt sub stages. Go with an Mmats M series wich is a super efficient class D and cut the demand down on the car’s electrical and maybe you don’t need a $500-$800 super capacitor. A good amplifier should have enough capacitance to handle high transient demands anyway.


Actually, I think there are quite a few here with 3500 wt or more, substages. But a system wouldn't have to be that high of wattage to benefit from a supercapcitor, nor would the super capacitor have to be $500-800, or 500+ farads.
In any case, I've seen LOTS of guys here, and on other internet car audio forums asking about "more batteries", when for many situations, I think a super capacitor would do then more good. 
They really are not such a big, expensive, extreme kind of thing, as you might think.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Actually, I think there are quite a few here with 3500 wt or more, substages. But a system wouldn't have to be that high of wattage to benefit from a supercapcitor, nor would the super capacitor have to be $500-800, or 500+ farads.
> In any case, I've seen LOTS of guys here, and on other internet car audio forums asking about "more batteries", when for many situations, I think a super capacitor would do then more good.
> They really are not such a big, expensive, extreme kind of thing, as you might think.


You’ve got to finish that off and give some examples to support your comment Chris


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

JCsAudio said:


> You’ve got to finish that off and give some examples to support your comment Chris


Well I really don't have a lot of personal experience with them. Only the one I'm running now. I did do a ton of research before buying and installing this one, and it seemed like it would be huge.... And it has been 🙂

In a nutshell, I have just seen where a bunch of guys have a bunch of batteries... Go on YouTube and you will see guys who have 10 huge heavy batteries or more ! Or multiple big, expensive lithium's, etc, etc. The power storage some of these guys have is rediculous. Yet my single supercapcitor, and a modest battery (mine was $179 from Sam's club) can make "faster power" than any of those crazy big, expensive setups. 
And I never play my stereo without the vehicle running anyway. Power storage is over rated. I think more guys need to concentrate von making power quick enough.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Well I really don't have a lot of personal experience with them. Only the one I'm running now. I did do a ton of research before buying and installing this one, and it seemed like it would be huge.... And it has been 🙂
> 
> In a nutshell, I have just seen where a bunch of guys have a bunch of batteries... Go on YouTube and you will see guys who have 10 huge heavy batteries or more ! Or multiple big, expensive lithium's, etc, etc. The power storage some of these guys have is rediculous. Yet my single supercapcitor, and a modest battery (mine was $179 from Sam's club) can make "faster power" than any of those crazy big, expensive setups.
> And I never play my stereo without the vehicle running anyway. Power storage is over rated. I think more guys need to concentrate von making power quick enough.


I would agree there Chris. So many people buy into the bigger is better mentality but don’t really understand what they are doing and just hope it all works out. 

Mazda for example used a super capacitor for a while in their Mazda 6 vehicles called i-ELOOP that worked out really well with less weight gain over traditional methods. Mazda6 Combines ICE with Regen Braking and Super Capacitors - News


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## Gary S (Dec 11, 2007)

You know, your amplifier has caps built-in


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Gary S said:


> You know, your amplifier has caps built-in


Absolutely, and the bigger / more expensive / more bad a$$ the amplifier is, the greater that capacitance is likely to be. However, I'll bet the biggest, baddest, most expensive car audio amplifier on the market, doesn't have as much capacitance as my two cheap amps, in conjunction with my $500 super capacitor. In other words, "even with" super strong, high quality amplifiers, I think a person would notice a difference in electrical stability, and in dynamic range of the music, if they were running a super capacitor, and beating the system pretty hard.


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

this one..... this amp had some capacitance in it. 2006 Rockford Fosgate Power T15kW, entire board of only caps. I think they were smaller physical sized ultra/super/eldc caps too.








http://www.lightav.com/car/rf/T15kWa.jpg





http://www.lightav.com/car/rf/T15kW.jpg


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

JohnnyOhh said:


> this one..... this amp had some capacitance in it. 2006 Rockford Fosgate Power T15kW, entire board of only caps. I think they were smaller physical sized ultra/super/eldc caps too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea, I’ve seen those amps in person, at Steve Meades shop. They had two of them in Chickens Escalade. Unfortunately the system was down for some tweaking. I should have figured their might be am amp out there somewhere that has amazing capacitance 🙂 But besides those $20,000 amps “almost” no car audio amplifiers are going to have the capacitanc built in, that you can easily get with an external super capacitor.


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

Jealous. So cool! Did you get to demo any of his cars/trucks?

This Massive Audio Blade series amps had a plug in capacitor option, it looks like 4F set-up to help with power supply.








RAILCAP B - Blade Series Capacitor


4 Farad Rail Capacitor for BLADE SERIES Amplifiers



www.massiveaudio.com


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

JohnnyOhh said:


> Jealous. So cool! Did you get to demo any of his cars/trucks?
> 
> This Massive Audio Blade series amps had a plug in capacitor option, it looks like 4F set-up to help with power supply.
> 
> ...


Yes, I have set in SMD’s 159 db Tahoe.... unbelievable ! The door panels and dash board looked like jello ! Even the mids/highs were ridiculous ! So clean though, it was very deceiving how loud it actually was. Honestly, I could handle 30hz and down okay (which I’m not really sure how many db’s he’s hitting in that range anyway) but when it started climbing up towards 40 hz or higher, I had to tap out. 
This was all way back though, when his system was “only” like 20 Kwts. A little while after that, he redid his whole power setup, and increased it to 30 Kwts. I’m think he is hitting over 161 db’s now. I think a lot of folks don’t understand exactly how loud that is !
Fun stuff though, just because it’s so ridiculous 🙂
Same thing as having a 10,000hp top fuel funny car that does over 300 mph in a quarter mile. No practical reason for this. Just that it is fun, and they can, so they do 🙂


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## bills72sj (Jun 1, 2021)

I have been using both, military grade caps and a second battery for decades.
I had to devise a number of tweaks to make everything reliable.
*The (present) loads:* 5 amps, 2 crossovers, 2 line eq's and one head unit.
*The batteries:* One group 27 for the vehicle. One group 27 marine deep cycle battery for the sound system.
*The assistants:* A variety of 7 military grade capacitors rated between 21,000 mfd and 350,000 mfd at 15wvdc.
One heavy duty relay (think old school Ford remote starter relay rated for continuous duty).
One home built dual diode battery isolator made from two 105A rated diodes.
One GM 27si alternator rated at 100A.
One old school 10A/50A battery charger on a timer that charges both batteries through its own rectifier.
An AC timer that activates the battery charger for 15 minutes twice a day.
*The original problem:* Back when I had two amps and one battery, I needed a jump start if I ran cranked up for more than 15 minutes with the car off. Very embarrassing.
*The first solution:* An RV dual battery isolator and a second battery.
*Problem number 2:* The alternator would always think the charge level was fine because it always sensed the voltage in the front battery. The rear battery never would get charged up. I frequently killed regular car batteries within 4-5 months.
*Solution 2:* Switched to marine deep cycle battery for the rear. They lasted longer (about 2 years).
Later on the inevitable system upgrades resulted in more amps speakers etc. The capacitors added during this time.
Additionally, vehicle use changed from daily-driver to weekend cruiser that took winters off.
*Problem 3:* The capacitors, amps or whatever would drain the rear battery dead in two weeks if the car was not started.
I also still had the uneven charging problem.
*Solution 3:* I added a 70A rated Bosch relay and a couple of 50A self resetting circuit breakers on each end of the rear power cable to"Jump" both batteries to each other the moment the alternator was energized. This solved my uneven charge problem while still providing isolation while parked. I installed the afore mentioned heavy duty relay between the rear battery and all the capacitors and amps. This cured my "drain" problem. To prevent arc welding the relay contacts from the instantaneous current of charging the caps, I used a small relay and a high watt resistor to bleed feed the caps up to voltage before the caps would actually energize the HD relay. Now I could park the car for a couple of months without either battery being drained.
*Just for added benefit*, I added a permanent digital voltmeter to the lid of my rear battery box that lets me monitor either battery's voltage with a flip of a switch. I also added a quick connection for the AC powered battery charger when the car is parked for long periods of time. I now get 7-8 years out of the starting battery and around 5 years out of the stereo battery.


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

this is awesome! more pics of your set-up maybe?
i think you said you are using ~350F of caps, how much current do your amps pull when the bass hits?


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## bills72sj (Jun 1, 2021)

this is awesome! more pics of your set-up maybe?
i think you said you are using ~350F of caps, how much current do your amps pull when the bass hits?

There are some pics at the end of the thread below.

6.5 Midbass in kick panels recommendation please.










There are 3 more amps and some other gear UNDER this amp board too.
It is about to get significantly revamped for my 1st DSP.

The whole kit and kaboodle is run through the same 50amp fuse I bought in the 90's. The key is efficient speakers vs. massive power. The amps are WAY overkill but I have plenty of headroom and no hot equipment. In fact my tweeter amp runs the warmest.

It is installed in this...


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