# Time Alignment Tool



## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

A while back I asked around to see if anyone would be interested in a Time Alignment tool to help with tuning. The amount of responses I got must have been unimpressive because I do not recall much about it. Over the weekend I decided to finally build it, so here are the results:

http://theguitarforum.net/ta/

Let me know if this is useful or if you want me to make any changes.

Things I plan on adding:
- Save measurements so they can be easily recalled.
- Moving the image left or right, I have to experiment to see how am I going to do this.

Not much else, I am open to suggestions.


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

Erin did something similar. http://tracerite.com/calc.html


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## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

Nice! I'll be trying both of these out.


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## dcs3473 (Feb 24, 2013)

Like it. Thanks for your work. Makes a great starting point for us non-tuners.


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## Rs roms (Jul 12, 2012)

Its just a plain conversion of 1ms=13.503 inch = 34.3 cms.

The Erin's calculator works on different principles, i don't know how exactly but gets good results. I haven't tried his TA method via crossovers points but seems very promising.


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Rs roms said:


> Its just a plain conversion of 1ms=13.503 inch = 34.3 cms.
> 
> The Erin's calculator works on different principles, i don't know how exactly but gets good results. I haven't tried his TA method via crossovers points but seems very promising.


Right, it is a simple calculation. I need to do some more reading in order to do anything with the crossovers. Not sure if I am going to do that for now as it is well over my head. I am more interested in shifting the image. I am personally having some issues with that, I know I have to redo the gains (levels) somehow because even though I can move the image and center it then one side is louder than the other. I think I am going to hve to rely on the dB formula for that. More reading ahead...


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## Rs roms (Jul 12, 2012)

fcarpio said:


> Right, it is a simple calculation. I need to do some more reading in order to do anything with the crossovers. Not sure if I am going to do that for now as it is well over my head. I am more interested in shifting the image. I am personally having some issues with that, I know I have to redo the gains (levels) somehow because even though I can move the image and center it then one side is louder than the other. I think I am going to hve to rely on the dB formula for that. More reading ahead...


True, the levels have to be adjusted sometimes, i am thinking that the driver side tweeter will always be less louder than the passenger side tweet in order to center them. If you see Erin's calculator for moving image to and side, it requires incremental ms as well as levels as well.


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Rs roms said:


> True, the levels have to be adjusted sometimes, i am thinking that the driver side tweeter will always be less louder than the passenger side tweet in order to center them. If you see Erin's calculator for moving image to and side, it requires incremental ms as well as levels as well.


Yes, I did notice that but I want to understand the calculation before I attempt it myself.


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

I just realized that the tool looks kind of funny in my computer at work. I am using Ubuntu and Firefox. Anyone seeing anything that does not look right? I don't want to say what it is as I do not want to bias anyone. I hope it is just me.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Interesting, I like it...


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

fcarpio said:


> I just realized that the tool looks kind of funny in my computer at work. I am using Ubuntu and Firefox. Anyone seeing anything that does not look right? I don't want to say what it is as I do not want to bias anyone. I hope it is just me.


Yeah, I've got the 3 right side below the left side, and all 6 front fields stretch across the screen


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

JoshHefnerX said:


> Yeah, I've got the 3 right side below the left side, and all 6 front fields stretch across the screen


Yeah, that is the problem. I will have to fix it later today. If you don't mind me asking, which browser and which operating system are you using? Does it look the same in another browser? 

Frigging Bootstrap man, I should have used Foundation or Semantic UI. :mean:


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

fcarpio said:


> Yeah, that is the problem. I will have to fix it later today. If you don't mind me asking, which browser and which operating system are you using? Does it look the same in another browser?
> 
> Frigging Bootstrap man, I should have used Foundation or Semantic UI. :mean:


IE11 on both win7 and win8.1


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

what is it you need help understanding? 

seems like we are doing the same thing. is there something your site is doing differently?


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

ErinH said:


> what is it you need help understanding?
> 
> seems like we are doing the same thing. is there something your site is doing differently?


How did you calculate the image shift to the left or right? Right now I am at work but I was planning on looking at the dB formula to determine how the difference in distance affects the volume so I can account for it. This is one of my pet peeves every time I do T/A, I move the image where I want it, but then the levels are all screwed up. So I move the levels then the image is not where I want it. It is a slow and painful process for me. 

What I did is not that different really, we are using the same formula (I think) even though our results vary very slightly but that may be due to rounding (I am not rounding). I will soon allow the user to save the measurements so they don't have to enter them all the time.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

distance formula. 

I haven't checked your site (the blown up window made it hard to read so I just closed it out), but the difference may be more than just rounding... what is your speed of sound based on?

Robert and I are open to suggestions. You could have just shot one of us a PM and we could have incorporated the user saving feature. But, I understand wanting to do something yourself.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

the inputs are all over the place on my screen. that background image is quite distracting. I too am not sure what you are trying to accomplish beyond what we already did.


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## McKinneyMike (Jul 24, 2014)

ErinH said:


> distance formula.
> 
> I haven't checked your site (the blown up window made it hard to read so I just closed it out), but the difference may be more than just rounding... what is your speed of sound based on?
> 
> Robert and I are open to suggestions. You could have just shot one of us a PM and we could have incorporated the user saving feature. But, I understand wanting to do something yourself.


I don't think that he was aware of your program is why he worked on his own. maybe I misunderstood though.


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## Rs roms (Jul 12, 2012)

ErinH said:


> distance formula.
> 
> I haven't checked your site (the blown up window made it hard to read so I just closed it out), but the difference may be more than just rounding... what is your speed of sound based on?
> 
> Robert and I are open to suggestions. You could have just shot one of us a PM and we could have incorporated the user saving feature. But, I understand wanting to do something yourself.


ErinH do you mind reiterating the crossover points method for TA? full cycle and 1/2 cycle was really informative and helpful.
Also the stage shifting formula on your blog brings up smallest db adjustments. For instance 0.2 db, 0.4db. What if someone has 1db increments available? 

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

ErinH said:


> distance formula.
> 
> I haven't checked your site (the blown up window made it hard to read so I just closed it out), but the difference may be more than just rounding... what is your speed of sound based on?
> 
> Robert and I are open to suggestions. You could have just shot one of us a PM and we could have incorporated the user saving feature. But, I understand wanting to do something yourself.


You have already done all the work! Let's just use yours. BUT I can help you with the saving stuff. Does you hosting plan have a database? If so I can give you the code to save/retrieve stored data to/from it. Alternatively, I can set it up on one of my hosting services so you can store and pull it from there. We can work something out, you have been a great deal of help to me and I don't mind helping you for a change. 

Are you using some sort of version control tool?


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

fcarpio said:


> You have already done all the work! Let's just use yours. BUT I can help you with the saving stuff. Does you hosting plan have a database? If so I can give you the code to save/retrieve stored data to/from it. Alternatively, I can set it up on one of my hosting services so you can store and pull it from there. We can work something out, you have been a great deal of help to me and I don't mind helping you for a change.
> 
> Are you using some sort of version control tool?


I can take care of that; software development is my day job. I did the coding work based on Erin's calculations and spreadsheet. 

Saving the data isn't something anyone has asked for, but if there is enough interest I can add that feature.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

McKinneyMike said:


> I don't think that he was aware of your program is why he worked on his own. maybe I misunderstood though.


I thought the same, but when searching for my thread to reply below, I found he had replied to it:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2022802-post46.html

Probably just forgot. I can't remember my childhood (but that's because I choose to block it out... just kidding ).



Rs roms said:


> ErinH do you mind reiterating the crossover points method for TA? full cycle and 1/2 cycle was really informative and helpful.
> Also the stage shifting formula on your blog brings up smallest db adjustments. For instance 0.2 db, 0.4db. What if someone has 1db increments available?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


I honestly don't think I have the time to re-type it all, and I'd rather just refer you back to the original thread with some of the reasons behind it:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...nt-via-tape-measure-site-nifty-tweak-too.html

The OP covers everything. Even the questions the OP of this thread had regarding how I do the stage shift. As a side note, I need to re-evaluate something I did in there... 



fcarpio said:


> You have already done all the work! Let's just use yours. BUT I can help you with the saving stuff. Does you hosting plan have a database? If so I can give you the code to save/retrieve stored data to/from it. Alternatively, I can set it up on one of my hosting services so you can store and pull it from there. We can work something out, you have been a great deal of help to me and I don't mind helping you for a change.


Robert is the dude for that. I just came up with the original spreadsheet and he ported it all over to the website. I've had the site up for a while now and no one has asked about saving the results. I guess I could see it being useful to some, but honestly it's just not something I'd ever seen the need for. If folks want that feature and it's not too much trouble then maybe Robert could add it.


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## Rs roms (Jul 12, 2012)

Thanks for redirection. Wonder how i missed that thread.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

yea... maybe I need to ask Robert if he can link that post to the page so people aren't going 'blind' to it.


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Man, that was 10 months ago, I can barely remember what I had for breakfast.  I must have subbed from work but never checked it out at home.

Also, being able to save settings is always a must for me. If Robert can do it that will be great.


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

ErinH said:


> distance formula.
> 
> I haven't checked your site (the blown up window made it hard to read so I just closed it out), but the difference may be more than just rounding... what is your speed of sound based on?
> 
> Robert and I are open to suggestions. You could have just shot one of us a PM and we could have incorporated the user saving feature. But, I understand wanting to do something yourself.


I found different references regarding the speed of sound, some deviate a lot but most seem to hover around 1128 to 1130 feet per second. I found a source form a university (don't remember which) that listed a speed of around 13.5k inches per second with something like ten decimal places, that is what I used.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Because it varies primarily by temperature. So, depending on the atmospheric conditions used, the value will vary as well. My assumption when I made the spreadsheet was (IIRC) 60 F and 60% humidity. I have this all on my "master sheet". I considered asking Robert to add that feature as well but we both decided the effort was nebulous because most people aren't driving their cars in an environment when the extremes required to really drive a significant difference are realized. YMMV.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

ErinH said:


> My assumption when I made the spreadsheet was (IIRC) 60 F and 60% humidity.


:snacks:


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

REGULARCAB said:


> :snacks:




I've already been through a debate over this with someone. He failed to recognize the car is a fairly predictable and repeated environment. We aren't trying to account for extremes here. There's no sense in it. You don't TA your drivers in the AM when the car is freezing cold before leaving your house and then TA it in the afternoon before you head home. That's just silly. The assumption made is that you drive in a comfortable temp and that's what is used as a calculator for speed of sound. Besides, when you run the numbers you see that to account for even 0.02ms difference, the ambient conditions have to have a pretty decent swing. I've verified all this myself just to prove to myself there's no need in adding additional variables to a process that is only intended to get you part of the way. 

You guys are more than welcome to verify what I've said. Suffice it to say, I'm exercising some "engineering judgement" and not just tacking on spaces for people to input their temp and humidity just for the sake of it or to make me look uber smart. I could do all that; I already have it in an excel file I made to double check the usefulness. But what's the point... Unless you don't have HVAC in your car.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

ErinH said:


> I've already been through a debate over this with someone. He failed to recognize the car is a fairly predictable and repeated environment. We aren't trying to account for extremes here. There's no sense in it. You don't TA your drivers in the AM when the car is freezing cold before leaving your house and then TA it in the afternoon before you head home. That's just silly. Besides, when you run the numbers you see that to account for even 0.02ms difference, the ambient conditions have to have a pretty decent swing.
> 
> You guys are more than welcome to verify what I've said. Suffice it to say, I'm exercising some "engineering judgement" and not just tacking on spaces for people to input their temp and humidity just for the sake of it or to make me look uber smart. I could do all that; I already have it in an excel file I made to double check the usefulness. But what's the point... Unless you don't have HVAC in your car.


Oh I wasn't arguing one bit, I was waiting for the arguments to start however.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Anyone who wants to argue what I've said is welcome to. But anyone who actually understands the math used and has applied it themselves will realize the assumptions made are reasonable. Adding extra bits here and there to impress people because I can is pointless and doesn't do anything to add value. But again, the overall assumption is you have HVAC in the car. If you don't and you do experience extreme shifts of 20F to 80F in a day and your car's interior is never close to a medial environment, then I doubt TA values is your top concern.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

This may have already been covered in my thread discussing the site. If it is, I've just wasted a lot of my time. :/


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

ErinH said:


> This may have already been covered in my thread discussing the site. If it is, I've just wasted a lot of my time. :/


Well you're no fun, I was hoping for 3 pages of "well I keep my car at 70 and I live Arizona with 0% humidity"

I have to say I used your method for my initial TA and it was pretty spot on. Certainly a better start than swinging blindly in the dark listening to changes in pink noise that I could barely discern. :thumbsup:


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

OK, this is my take on the speed of sound and the conditions of the air it travels through. Based on my "quick" calculations my answer is: It does not matter. Why do I say that? I tested the formula I using a distance difference of 15" for the delay and two different constants for the speed of sound to compare, one was 1125ft/s and the other was 1130ft/s. The difference for the calculated delay was 0.05 ms. Now, this is only considering the outliers. If we use a more reasonable range for the speed of sound it will hover around 1125ft/s +- 1ft/s. Redoing the calculation with these parameters (1124ft/s and 1126ft/s) as a range we get a difference of 0.003ms, most processors cannot even handle this resolution.

My conclusion is that under normal circumstances the difference in speed of sound we use for the calculation is not going to make that much of a difference, unless you move from Antarctica to Ecuador. Even if the range is the first case, does 0.05ms delay going to make a difference the human ear can discern? I don't think so!

My sources for the speed of sound are: Wikipedia, Sengpiel Audio, Stanford University, Convert-to and NOAA.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

You just repeated what Erin said...

I came to the exact same conclusion. Right after I read his thread way back when and after I saw the spread sheet and after we talked about it lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

You totally deflated me, I was ready for the **** storm. I did not read what Erin wrote, too much reading.  Maybe I should check it out...


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

rofl


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Saving and retrieving times work now.

http://theguitarforum.net/ta/


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

I think I worked out a way to shift the image sideways with the proper adjustment of the dB levels and update the delay times when necessary, that is when shifting requires you to delay past your base time. Stay tuned...

The formula I am using :


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## Kevin K (Feb 11, 2013)

Erin and Robert's site already does the stage shifting.....


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

not to kill the thread...but when you are measuring speaker distances, where do you measure TO? All speakers to single spot in space apprx in the center of your noggin?


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Kevin K said:


> Erin and Robert's site already does the stage shifting.....


Yes, but I want to make sure I get the same results. I will be able to tell for sure once I am done writng the code and testing it in my system.

Besides, wth if this has already been done? The more I hear this the more I want to do it.  I am building this tool for ME and I am opening it for all to use, or not.


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

miniSQ said:


> not to kill the thread...but when you are measuring speaker distances, where do you measure TO? All speakers to single spot in space apprx in the center of your noggin?


Yes.


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Image shifting working, need to test in car for accuracy. My calculations use the Sengpiel Audio formulas and match the Sengpiel Audio results.  Working for the most part, just have to work out some minor improvements that I think may not even make a difference but will give me peace of mind.


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Next, recalculate TA based on shift. Coming soon...


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

I was working on this little project on a 23" screen, then I loaded it in my notebook and it looked like crap because I could only see half of it on the smaller screen. If most of us are like me you are going to have a notebook while tuning, not a 23" monitor. So it should now fit the entire screen on most notebooks. 

Maybe I could make it collapse so it fits on tablets and phones, so it looks like an app but on the web. Maybe later...


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

You mean something like I did? Auto fit to a mobile device? Novel idea. 

But first, you should try to make it look somewhat decent on a regular monitor. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

pocket5s said:


> You mean something like I did? Auto fit to a mobile device? Novel idea.
> 
> But first, you should try to make it look somewhat decent on a regular monitor.
> 
> ...


Looks good to me, so good I may use it as the desktop background on my tuning laptop.


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## piyush7243 (Sep 9, 2009)

Great tool but we'll have to be tweaked to work in pioneers as they have distance units rather than time delay


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

piyush7243 said:


> Great tool but we'll have to be tweaked to work in pioneers as they have distance units rather than time delay


Since you asked for it I will do it.


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## Rs roms (Jul 12, 2012)

fcarpio said:


> Looks good to me, so good I may use it as the desktop background on my tuning laptop.


Much better than before, i need a devotion like this :laugh:


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## piyush7243 (Sep 9, 2009)

fcarpio said:


> Since you asked for it I will do it.


Thanks a ton. Its really hard to multiply values by 343 to get pioneer distance units


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Rs roms said:


> Much better than before, i need a devotion like this :laugh:


Thanks! 

This is kind of a break for me as I am working on a MUCH larger side project. Ugh, I need to get back to that...


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

piyush7243 said:


> Thanks a ton. Its really hard to multiply values by 343 to get pioneer distance units


Working on it, please stand by. BTW, thanks again for your help!


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## piyush7243 (Sep 9, 2009)

fcarpio said:


> Working on it, please stand by. BTW, thanks again for your help!


You are most welcome bro. Do let me know if your need anything


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

piyush7243 said:


> You are most welcome bro. Do let me know if your need anything


OK, done. Please check it out when you get a chance. I did read the manual for the 80PRS to come up with what I have. Let me know if that works. Still with a bad ass cold, I will do the *Pioneer* image shift tomorrow.


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## piyush7243 (Sep 9, 2009)

fcarpio said:


> OK, done. Please check it out when you get a chance. I did read the manual for the 80PRS to come up with what I have. Let me know if that works. Still with a bad ass cold, I will do the *Pioneer* image shift tomorrow.


Thanks man,I will check it on my p99 n will get back to you tomorrow
Do take care if your health


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