# Brad Nails or Screws for sub box?



## cold21blooded

Just like the title says, which one do you like better.. Me and my cousin are gonna build a box once I move next month and i wanted to know which one was better and why.. Also which woodglue to use.. I'm pretty sure im gonna go with gorilla glue woodglue


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## trojan fan

I like to use both, first I tack everything in place with a few brads then I'll go back and add screws

Here is a link to the glue I like to use

Amazon.com: Franklin International 1413 Titebond III Ultimate Wood Glue, 8-Ounces: Home Improvement


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## jcollin76

I used to 'glue and screw' but switched to an air nailer.... Heaven.
So much faster, no predrilling, no split out. I've read some write ups stating screws actually hinder the integrity of The enclosure. The screws/brads are only there to secure the joint while the glue dries anyway. I'll never go back to screws... But that's just me. Lol


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## cold21blooded

yeah i've built a box before and used screws.. it was to much drilling and i split the wood.. it was pretty terrible.. it was my first box so i expected it but i figured a nailgun would be so much faster


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## trojan fan

jcollin76 said:


> I've read some write ups stating screws actually hinder the integrity of The enclosure. Lol


Can you please explain some more...thanks


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## jcollin76

I bet I easily cut my build time in half using the gun. I don't have my own, so I snag my grandfathers pancake compressor and gun. Lol it helps he's an avid wood hobbiest.


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## jcollin76

trojan fan said:


> Can you please explain some more...thanks


I wish I could remember where I read that. It was something like the screws compressed the wood/mdf, compromising the panel integrity at the joint. 
It wasn't my deciding factor in going to a nail gun, that was the speed and simplicity in it.


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## cold21blooded

my dad has a compressor and stuff so i might have to pick him up a nailgun for xmas lol


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## jcollin76

cold21blooded said:


> my dad has a compressor and stuff so i might have to pick him up a nailgun for xmas lol


Lol nothing better than a gift you can benefit from as well.


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## theothermike

just make sure ur shooting at like 95psi to 110 psi to ensure your nails make it through flush with your wood. or else u will be hammering after


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## BowDown

2" long, 1/2" crown staple gun FTW. I throw some yellow glue down on the pieces, line em up, and shoot it home. No splits, and no clamps needed.


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## nineball

glue and brad nails. the glue is what will actually make the bond, the brad nails hold it in place while it dries. a wood glue bond will be stronger than the mdf.


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## cold21blooded

Good stuff.. i'm for sure gonna use brad nails then... It just seems easier and gives a cleaner look


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## minbari

nineball said:


> glue and brad nails. the glue is what will actually make the bond, the brad nails hold it in place while it dries. a wood glue bond will be stronger than the mdf.


^this. nails, screws, clamps. whatever will hold it together until the glue dries


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## chad

Glue it, clamp it, nail it, remove clamp, move on with life.

Hell, before I got an air-nailer I'd nail that **** together with a hammer


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## chad

there is an Auto Dupe party in my pants and all the hot chicks are coming.


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## minbari

chad said:


> there is an Auto Dupe party in my pants and all the hot chicks are coming.


lol, you can edit and delette the dups, but this is more fun


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## chad

minbari said:


> lol, you can edit and delette the dups, but this is more fun


you weren't here for the first round of auto-dupeism. That's how my post count got to where it is. Very active+auto-dupe=epic post count.


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## trojan fan

chad said:


> Hell, before I got an air-nailer I'd nail that **** together with a hammer



That sounds like a PITA.........OUCH, my finger


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## BowDown

trojan fan said:


> That sounds like a PITA.........OUCH, my finger


If you're getting pains in your ass building a box, you're doing it wrong.


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## minbari

BowDown said:


> If you're getting pains in your ass building a box, you're doing it wrong.


if you are using a butt-hammer, it is the only way to do it


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## trojan fan

BowDown said:


> If you're getting pains in your ass building a box, you're doing it wrong.




Hemorrhoids + building a box = pain in the ass while building a speaker box:bash:


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## chad

don't sit on the cold garage floor and you would not have rhoids in the first place.


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## trojan fan

chad said:


> don't sit on the cold garage floor and you would not have rhoids in the first place.


Is that what you learned from prior experiences


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## dragonrage

cold21blooded said:


> Just like the title says, which one do you like better.. Me and my cousin are gonna build a box once I move next month and i wanted to know which one was better and why.. Also which woodglue to use.. I'm pretty sure im gonna go with gorilla glue woodglue


You don't need nails OR screws, but if you want to use them basically as clamps until the glue dries then use screws, and make sure to predrill and countersink. You do not need a lot of them, either. Nails/brads do not hold tightly like screws do, and they are especially crappy in MDF.

Do not touch Gorilla glue for box building. You want Elmer's, Titebond I, Titebond II or Titebond III only. NOT Gorilla Glue, NOT Liquid Nails.


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## jcollin76

dragonrage said:


> You don't need nails OR screws, but if you want to use them basically as clamps until the glue dries then use screws, and make sure to predrill and countersink. You do not need a lot of them, either. Nails/brads do not hold tightly like screws do, and they are especially crappy in MDF.
> 
> Do not touch Gorilla glue for box building. You want Elmer's, Titebond II or Titebond III only. NOT Gorilla Glue, NOT Liquid Nails.


Why no gorilla?


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## minbari

only thing I can think of is you have to get the wood wet for gorilla to work. getting MDF wet is not a good plan. other than that, gorilla makes a wicked good bond.

that and enough of it to glue a whole box will cost you more than the box, lol.


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## minbari

only thing I can think of is you have to get the wood wet for gorilla to work. getting MDF wet is not a good plan. other than that, gorilla makes a wicked good bond.

that and enough of it to glue a whole box will cost you more than the box, lol.


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## BowDown

minbari said:


> only thing I can think of is you have to get the wood wet for gorilla to work. getting MDF wet is not a good plan. other than that, gorilla makes a wicked good bond.
> 
> that and enough of it to glue a whole box will cost you more than the box, lol.


True, but it just has to be wet, not soaked. Should work fine for MDF.


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## cold21blooded

They make gorilla wood glue that doesnt need to get wet i believe

Sent from my Gummy Charged GBE 2.0 using Tapatalk


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## dragonrage

The glues that I mentioned are MUCH, MUCH, MUCH stronger than Gorilla and LN. I saw an actual test linked on AVSForum a while ago from a magazine. It MIGHT have been this article, but I KNOW the results agreed with this: http://www.titebond.com/Download/pdf/HowStrongisYourGlue_FWW.pdf

Note that that's from Titebond's site, but again, the link that I saw to this years ago was NOT from Titebond's site and agreed. Also, even though this is hosted on Titebond's site, not that it even goes out of its way to say that normal yellow carpenter's glue (i.e. Elmer's) is great stuff.

Correction: Titebond I and II, not II and III. (I'll fix my other post, too)


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## dragonrage

The glues that I mentioned are MUCH, MUCH, MUCH stronger than Gorilla and LN. I saw an actual test linked on AVSForum a while ago from a magazine. It MIGHT have been this article, but I KNOW the results agreed with this: http://www.titebond.com/Download/pdf/HowStrongisYourGlue_FWW.pdf

Note that that's from Titebond's site, but again, the link that I saw to this years ago was NOT from Titebond's site and agreed. Also, even though this is hosted on Titebond's site, not that it even goes out of its way to say that normal yellow carpenter's glue (i.e. Elmer's) is great stuff.

People who started to use Gorilla Glue and/or Liquid Nails in box building did so for no scientific reason whatsoever; do not listen to them. The science speaks for itself. I have both Elmer's and Titebond II at my house. I use whichever is more convenient (closest to me) at any given time, and they both rock. I usually do NOT agree with the phrase 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it,' but in this case, that phrase is true.


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## cold21blooded

cold21blooded said:


> They make gorilla wood glue that doesnt need to get wet i believe
> 
> Sent from my Gummy Charged GBE 2.0 using Tapatalk


Yep nope water....


http://gorillaglue.com/glues/woodglue/directions.aspx


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## dragonrage

But do they make Gorilla glue that doesn't suck?


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## trojan fan

dragonrage said:


> You don't need nails OR screws, but if you want to use them basically as clamps until the glue dries then use screws, and make sure to predrill and countersink. You do not need a lot of them, either. Nails/brads do not hold tightly like screws do, and they are especially crappy in MDF.
> 
> Do not touch Gorilla glue for box building. You want Elmer's, Titebond I, Titebond II or Titebond III only. NOT Gorilla Glue, NOT Liquid Nails.


So dragon, are wood clamps truly the correct way to hold the box together until the glue dries


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## BowDown

trojan fan said:


> So dragon, are wood clamps truly the correct way to hold the box together until the glue dries


By using clamps you eliminate the risk of splitting the material with screws. Therefore this gives you a better connection. But if you predrill and countersink your screws there isn't a difference IMHO.


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## dragonrage

trojan fan said:


> So dragon, are wood clamps truly the correct way to hold the box together until the glue dries


I like to use a LOT of bar clamps in box building, but the proper screws can do a good enough job if you really don't want to buy bar clamps. Note: Don't get the flimsy plastic quick tighten clamps. I've used and broken them. Use this kind: Amazon.com: Jorgensen 3736 36-Inch Steel Bar Clamp: Home Improvement


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## minbari

my dad is a professional cabinet maker and Carpenter. I helped him make countless cabinets over the year. never screwed em together, EVER, in 30 years. glue and clamps. (the elmers yellow stuff for the record  ) if cabinet ever fails, it is not at the joint, that stuff is tough. (seen solid oak split down the middle and not at the joint)


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## minbari

dragonrage said:


> I like to use a LOT of bar clamps in box building, but the proper screws can do a good enough job if you really don't want to buy bar clamps. Note: Don't get the flimsy plastic quick tighten clamps. I've used and broken them. Use this kind: Amazon.com: Jorgensen 3736 36-Inch Steel Bar Clamp: Home Improvement


yup, those or you can buy just the end peices for use on 1" plumbing pipe. they are the same idea, just round instead of square.

http://www.justclamps.com/pipe_clamps.htm#678


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## jcollin76

cold21blooded said:


> Yep nope water....
> 
> 
> http://gorillaglue.com/glues/woodglue/directions.aspx


Yeah, so I'm building a box tomorrow and just purchased a gallon of The gorilla wood glue. No water correct? No mention of it on my gallon, or the link provided. Just want to double check...
Didn't use water last time, and was solid as hell... So not sure who I'm worried this time.


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## chad

jcollin76 said:


> Yeah, so I'm building a box tomorrow and just purchased a gallon of The gorilla wood glue. No water correct? No mention of it on my gallon, or the link provided. Just want to double check...
> Didn't use water last time, and was solid as hell... So not sure who I'm worried this time.


*A gallon?* SWEET JESUS... how fancy is this thing?


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## minbari

chad said:


> *A gallon?* SWEET JESUS... how fancy is this thing?


he wont have to worry about glue again...................ever.


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## jcollin76

Lol not fancy at all. Just two sealed boxes and an amp rack.
I ran out last time, so got plenty for future stuff.
And any remaining will be shared with my grandfather, he does wood working to get out of The house (away from grandma).


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## finbar

BowDown said:


> 2" long, 1/2" crown staple gun FTW. I throw some yellow glue down on the pieces, line em up, and shoot it home. No splits, and no clamps needed.


X2 :2thumbsup:


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## boogeyman

I prefer brad nails. The reason being I round over the edges of my enclosures and the router bits eat right through the brads without any damage. If you do this with screws it could possibly damage the bits Using an air nailer is a helluva lot faster. Time is money.


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## Salami

chad said:


> *A gallon?* SWEET JESUS... how fancy is this thing?


He is going to glue his ass shut so he can sit on the floor and not get rhoids. Or build a nice couch. 




chad said:


> don't sit on the cold garage floor and you would not have rhoids in the first place.


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## 5Toes

So titebond II and nails eh?

I might have somebody with a pneumatic nailer who can help me, or hmm. 

A professional installer friend of mine SWARES by staples. So I dont even know.


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## 5Toes

Who here builds boxes by hand nailing brad nails and using a GOOD glue? I think this is what I will have to do. 

How many nails do you guys go per side? Like one every 2 inches or so?

And what length for .75 inch MDF? 1.25 inch?


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## The Buzz

Countless boxes over a decade and I have tried all above methods.

My BEST experience and also my oldest is Titebond I or II and predrill screw holes with #6 Wolfcraft countersink/counter-screw bit. Clamping while screwing and drying if possible. I Always use 1 5/8 Course Deck screws from Home Depot because they are much stronger than Drywall screws(head snapping off-major problem, but they work in a pinch.) Sometimes I pretack the enclosure together with 16 Ga. finishing nails as 18 Ga. are not strong enough to hold joints tightly enough.

I am not a fan of just gluing and clamping, because the pressure/vibration inside the enclosures can get brutal. Great for furniture but can be problematic for sub boxes IME.

I am not also a fan of nailing and gluing which in theory is fine bit I have seen TOO many made that way blow a seams apart from cheaper prefabs all they way to JL Audio HO boxes(I couldn't believe it). 

Different enclosures can acceptably use different methods depending on the application/time/and stress they will be subjected too so that is a big planning consideration.

All I can say is that anytime I've had to demolish a box to junk using my current method It's taken no less that a sledgehammer to get the job done and I honestly can't say that about any other construction method I've came across. 

Just my experience of 10+ years building every method/design conceivable to me. 

Cheers!


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## Mr12voltwires

I'll go either way. A bead of wood glue or construction adhesive before fastening panels ensures a good seal. If internal bracing is used A++. RTV silicone around the inside seams after assembly is also a must.


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## mht_v10

I always do predrill, titebond and wood screw. took me a little more time but surely good


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## Mr Marv

_Please note that the following is just a little info based on my 20+ years experience building custom home cabinetry as well as home/mobile speaker cabinets (some pics in my signature below). It is not meant to discount/dispute anybody's skills/experiences nor any of the fine information already provided here. As with most things there are many ways to skin a cat so your results may vary!_

For "standard" MDF I use 18g brads just to hold pieces in place while I clamp or add screws every 4-5 inches (as mentioned brads alone will not pull "typical" MDF together tight enough to allow the glue to gain its maximum strength). I sometimes use a high grade of MDF called "ultra" or "super" refined (not to be confused with ultra or super "light" MDF) which holds nails better than typical MDF however I will still clamp it if the pieces need to be moved prior to the glue setting. A little more on MDF...there are many grades of MDF although most at home centers etc are not marked as plywood is. "Lower" grades are "softer" in the center generally due to less pulp used during the compression stage of manufacturing. This type of MDF is prone to splitting easily even when the proper size pilot holes are drilled. Generally "better" MDF will have a consistent color across the end with uniform consistency. "Lower" grades sometimes change color across the ends with the center being not as dense (if you can easily pick a chunk out of the center with your fingernail it's probably a low grade)

In some cases I will use void free multi ply plywood (I typically use readily available birch referred to by many names depending on where it's from and/or where you are ie Euro, Baltic, Lafian etc.) This material holds brads/nails as well as or better than solid hardwood and will pull the material tight enough to form a solid glue joint. There are many kinds of this type plywood including marine grades/Appleply etc however these are not your typical plywoods found in home centers etc. Some major differences are the weight, substrates used, construction and cost. As an example the 19mm (3/4") 13 ply Lafian Birch I use is constructed of 13 hardwood plys with each ply crosshatched 90 degrees forming an extremely strong panel that weighs nearly as much as quality 3/4 MDF (4x8 is about 90 - 100 lbs) yet is MUCH stronger and costs nearly $150.00 per sheet in my area. Typical birch plywood at home centers has a thin birch outer skin with a lightweight softwood substrate and is not good for speaker cabinets IMO.

For glues I generally use Elmers or Tightbond l/ll/lll depending on the situation however I am sure there are other wood glues that will work just fine _when applied properly_ (IMO Gorilla "type" glues/construction adhesive etc are not necessary since the weakest link will still be the MDF). MDF does not provide an ideal gluing surface and too little glue will starve the joint while too much glue may not allow it to form the proper reaction needed to get a solid joint. A simple tip to get a strong glue joint with MDF is to spread a thin bead down the center of the end piece and rub it in with your finger. Apply another thin bead down the center, rub the 2 pieces together to spread the glue/form an initial tack and screw or nail/clamp it together being sure not to to apply too much pressure as you will squeeze all the glue out leading to a weak joint. BTW, In order to get solid joints it is also extremely important to avoid gaps by making straight/square/parallel cuts (when done properly you will not need caulk/silicone etc to seal the enclosure).

For screws I use Grip Rite (coarse thread for MDF) countersunk with a pilot hole and at least twice as long as the thickness of the piece being screwed down however again I am sure there are many out there that will work fine. One thing to note as mentioned is that drywall screws work fine however there are different grades of those as well and the ones with the thin shank can easily snap.

Again, just a little info _based on my experience_ and my apologies if I repeated anything that was already posted!


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## jcollin76

^^ great info! Thank you


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## chad

there's MARV! Blast from the past!


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## The Buzz

Doh.. Forgot. I also use silicone in all inner seams as well. 

I've had a friend at a shop that would use silicone as sealant AND the adhesive for the wood joints. It seemed to work ok but I can't say that I would recommend it at all.

I messed with the Poly expanding glue and IMO that stuff's a nightmare. So's Liquid nail. Titebond holds better and wipes off with a wet rag, and doesn't take a week to get off your skin. 

As long as you clamp it tight enough and long enough for the glue to optimally set it should be fine.


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## Mr Marv

jcollin76 said:


> ^^ great info! Thank you


You're welcome! 


chad said:


> there's MARV! Blast from the past!


 Mostly reading these days Chad but I try to drop in when I can!


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## Sine Swept

I've seen boxes hold with white glue

I use 18ga brads, wood glue, PL over silicone anyday and just fibreglass resin your box if you want some certainty.


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## TrickyRicky

Elmers wood glue & clamps ONLY. Screws and nails are useless and play as clamps for those that dont have any or know how to properly use them, lol.


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## TRD07

i use brad nails and wood glue.


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## bigdexxx

I'm not sure if anyone else has ever done this, but instead of putting silicone in all the edges I put fiberglass resin in all corners.


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## jcollin76

Oh yeah, I've have read of several guys doing that. I also have read of guys using a 50/50 of wood glue and water to seal the box. I tried it on my last build and seemed to work very well....Not to mention quite a bit cheaper.


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## castor troy

I have done all the different combinations, glue and screw, glue and brad nail, and even tried the Liquid nails before. I havent really found a "best" combination yet. For speed and efficency I like glue and brad nails, easily cut a 1/3 off the time to build a box. I do like glue and screws though, but if I go this way I predrill all the holes then go back and run my countersink bit, then glue the two pieces togetehr and screw them. I have had very good luck with this method, i have also had good luck with the glue and brad nails.

Liquid nails not so much...not at all. Far as the glue goes I either use The elmers wood glue or titebond, thats it no other type or kind of glue.

And using resin on all the corners does help make an airtight seal.

This is just my point o two.

Tim


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

Just say NO to Brad(s).... 


I love the info in this thread, lot of great stuff.. (nice to see ya Marv!) 


I gotta say though... 1/4" crown construction STAPLES are where it's at... 

Brads do not apply any real clamping force... Staples OTOH DO..!!

1/4" crown 1.25/1.50" long staples... 

As mentioned, once the glue dries whatever was used to hold it together is regerdless, but holding it together staples DO BETTER... 

If you REALLY want it extra strong using MDF, rabbit the edges and dado the braces/dividers in... 

Cheers...!


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## NRA4ever

I use 1&1/2 staples 1/4 crown. & titebond glue. I use plenty of clamps also. My staples are to align the pieces more than strength.I haven't used screws in years. Good glue joints with plenty of clamps make a solid box.


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## SonicBoomAudio

Like somebody else said, the glue is really what holds the box together, the nails and screws are just there to keep it together until the glue dries. Go with brad nails, much faster and easier


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## cold21blooded

What brand and/or type clamp are you guys using


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## thomasluke

I use these from home depot Jorgensen 3712-HD Style No. 3700-HD 12" Steel Bar Clamp cheap and thet work great as long as you dont over tighten on the very edge of the wood.


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## cold21blooded

Harbor freight is gonna be my new go to store.. I'm moving friday and its just a few blocks away.. I'll for sure be picking up some clamps and and a crown staple gun once i get settled in


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## Jonny Hotnuts

....and on the material note I have always felt that HDF (Medite II) is a superior material to make sub boxes. 

Birch ply is more ridged and a good argument to use but I have had issues with machining the edges (feathering)....sort of depends on the covering for the box. 

I am surprised more people are not using HDF. 

~JH


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## 60ndown

i use a screw every 10 inches and

Sears: Online department store featuring appliances, tools, fitness equipment and more

when dry, the box would disintegrate before you could take it apart.


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## cold21blooded

Jonny Hotnuts said:


> ....and on the material note I have always felt that HDF (Medite II) is a superior material to make sub boxes.
> 
> Birch ply is more ridged and a good argument to use but I have had issues with machining the edges (feathering)....sort of depends on the covering for the box.
> 
> I am surprised more people are not using HDF.
> 
> ~JH


I've never really heard of HDF before about how much more is it and is it hard to find


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## eltico7213

what sub will be going into it.? i used gorilla glue and brads in my box, and my 55lb DD sits just fine.


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## dragonrage

60ndown said:


> i use a screw every 10 inches and
> 
> Sears: Online department store featuring appliances, tools, fitness equipment and more
> 
> when dry, the box would disintegrate before you could take it apart.


I don't quite believe you. I use construction adhesive all the time. My preferred brand for me is Titebond, though that's mainly because I like their glues so I just sort of figured their CA was also good. I have also used a significant amount of Liquid Nails CA. Both hold pretty well but neither one is anywhere near permanent. I use it to hold speaker rings to my door and if I want to remove one, I can easily do so with just my hands, no tools necessary. Actually, I started using screws in addition to the CA lately, because I wasn't quite trusting of it over time... Unless that brand is significantly better, I would call it a bad idea.

By the way, I have no idea why people are talking about doing all this special stuff to 'seal' boxes. If you don't screw up with the glue on the seams, there's no need to do that. If you want to put silicone or something else on the seams on the inside after the glue dries, that's fine (as long as you wait for the silicone to cure before installing the driver), but, er, MDF/plywood do not need extra sealing. You're not going to get air leaks through it... unless maybe you're using some crappy plywood with voids that come loose...


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## 60ndown

dragonrage said:


> I don't quite believe you.


PL is not liquid nails 

believe me !


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## bigdexxx

60ndown said:


> PL is not liquid nails
> 
> believe me !


I've been hearing a lot of good things about PL, I know a lot of the SPL guys use it. I may have to give it a shot!


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## ogg

bigdexxx said:


> I've been hearing a lot of good things about PL, I know a lot of the SPL guys use it. I may have to give it a shot!


I've been a carpenter for over 20 years and PL Premium is my go to adhesive when I want something to stay together permanently. 
Just be careful you don't get it on your skin.


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