# Alpine HU's have very weak preamp sub outputs



## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

I was finally able to get my system adjusted the way it should be as far as setting up the gains. I just installed a PG TLD22 line driver on my sub preamp inputs. Even then I had to turn the gains on the line driver all the way up, and then turn the amp gains up to about 3/4 to get it where I wanted it. I wanted to be able to turn the sub level control down so I could actually have some room for adjustment, instead of having to have it turned all the way up (+15) all the time just to get any sub output at all. This also allowed me to get more output on my comps as I had to have them turned way down in order to get them to balance with the sub output. I now have plenty of output with the sub level control at just 5. The overall system volume now also starts getting loud in the upper teens and extremely loud at anything over 20, whereas before, I'd have to have the volume turned up to at least 25 if I wanted to actually hear the music over the road noise. And no, I don't have the gains so far up that I'm getting distortion, at least not that can hear anyway. The system still sounds very clean. For anyone using an Alpine HU, I highly recommend using a line driver on the sub out. The difference is unreal!


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## sonicnirvana (Jan 6, 2008)

Hmmm... My 9887 has plenty of sub output. Never seemed to be a problem for me...


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

sonicnirvana said:


> Hmmm... My 9887 has plenty of sub output. Never seemed to be a problem for me...


Same here.


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## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

I had exact same problem with my previous HU; a 7892 (another Alpine HU that had 4v preouts), and I was using a different amp and different subs. Therefore, I can only assume the weakness kies in the preamp signals. Are you guys running way more amp than you need?


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

grampi said:


> Are you guys running way more amp than you need?


That depends on how you are defining "need".


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## starboy869 (Dec 16, 2006)

I never had any problems with my W200 with sub preout.

I had a ppi a600.2 on an older set of clarions 12" (600wrms total)


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## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

ClinesSelect said:


> That depends on how you are defining "need".


My Sundown SD-1 10's (I have a pair) are rated for 200wrms each and the mono output of my amp is rated for 500wrms. In my case, I would say running 800-1000 on these subs would be way more than I would need.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

grampi said:


> My Sundown SD-1 10's (I have a pair) are rated for 200wrms each and the mono output of my amp is rated for 500wrms. In my case, I would say running 800-1000 on these subs would be way more than I would need.


Is the 200 watt RMS rating based upon your specific application or was it determined by playing pink noise through the sub while it sits free air on a bench?


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## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

I know I'm not the only person in here whose made mention of weak preouts on Alpines.


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

all my alpine preouts have been weak imo h701 included


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## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

ClinesSelect said:


> Is the 200 watt RMS rating based upon your specific application or was it determined by playing pink noise through the sub while it sits free air on a bench?


I don't know. It's the rating Sundown gave them. It's not based on my specific application.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

grampi said:


> I know I'm not the only person in here whose made mention of weak preouts on Alpines.


I've seen the complaints also. My personal experience with Alpine decks has been different however. 

All that really matters however is that your system is up and running and you are happy with it.


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## dbphelps (Jun 30, 2006)

One thing few people know is that Alpine actually sets up the sub output on *most* of thier headunits so that that you need +15 on it so that it is at the same level of the front/rear outputs...

View it this way, if you setup a system with the volume at 3/4, and make it so that your gains are set for max output, then you want the sub system to also be at max (which is usually quite a bit more than what any of the component speakers can keep up with, as most sub systems are way overbuilt compared to the rest of the system), then +15 makes a ton of sense as you will usually need to turn the sub output down a bit to get it to match everything else...

Plus it gives you a little bit of room to 'jack up' the sub output when you really feel a need to have it up a bit...

Personally I set my systems for even sound with the sub level around +7 or +8, that way I have the ability to drop it or increase it a bit if I really feel the need to...

Hope this helps...

And, like I mentioned, *most* of the alpine headunits/processors work liek this, not all... Some actually have equal output at 0 and are way jacked up at +15... gotta experiment to determine how yours is setup...


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

Yep, at +15 the sub level is 0 dB, which means the output is on paar with the front and rear outs. +7, for example, will give you approx. 50% of the voltage the front and rear RCA's are putting out. Think of the sub level control like a faucet... full throttle (+15) lets all the "water" flow through, at +7, you're only letting half go through.

I tested my sub level output on my CDA-7995 with a DVM and I got 4V exactly at 35 HU volume and +15 sub level - full throttle basically.


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

glad you got it and glad it helped but i am still shocked that you need to max out the line driver and have the gains at 3/4. when i used it in the past with a 9813 i had the line driver around half and the gain at about a quarter. the line driver for me upped the voltage a TON.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

dbphelps said:


> One thing few people know is that Alpine actually sets up the sub output on *most* of thier headunits so that that you need +15 on it so that it is at the same level of the front/rear outputs...


Change "some" to "all". If it's an Alpine with a sub out, +15 is normal output and 0 is attenuated. It's been like that since Alpine started putting sub out in their HUs.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Appears to be "user error", Grampi if I were you, I'd take it to someone


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## dbphelps (Jun 30, 2006)

quality_sound said:


> Change "some" to "all". If it's an Alpine with a sub out, +15 is normal output and 0 is attenuated. It's been like that since Alpine started putting sub out in their HUs.


Actually, there are a few headunits and processors that defy that... The have 0db output at 0 and boosted output at +15... Usually 'flagship' units or ones that fall into the 'special' category...


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## MadMaxSE-L (Oct 19, 2006)

I will have to agree with the OP - my 9887 has very weak sub outputs compared to my old 9831... 

I even swapped out my Eclipse XA4000 for a DA7122 mono and I still have the same problem; when I turn the HU up past 20 or so, the sub amp shuts off. I think when you clip these Eclipse digital amps, they tend to shut down rather than continue clipping. While this may be a useful feature for component speaker amps, it sucks for sub amps. I have tried swapping out 3 different amps (problem persisted with 2 XA4000's and my current DA7122) and 2 different HU's (problem persisted with 9887 and not as bad with mycurrent 9887). 

I have come to the conclusion that I am going to have to install a line driver on my sub output...

-Matt


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

I'm starting to think that the Alpine decks I have used must have magical powers since I've never experienced any pre-out related issues with my amps, including a XA4000 and countless other amps.


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

grampi said:


> I was finally able to get my system adjusted the way it should be as far as setting up the gains. I just installed a PG TLD22 line driver on my sub preamp inputs. Even then I had to turn the gains on the line driver all the way up, and then turn the amp gains up to about 3/4 to get it where I wanted it. I wanted to be able to turn the sub level control down so I could actually have some room for adjustment, instead of having to have it turned all the way up (+15) all the time just to get any sub output at all. This also allowed me to get more output on my comps as I had to have them turned way down in order to get them to balance with the sub output. I now have plenty of output with the sub level control at just 5. The overall system volume now also starts getting loud in the upper teens and extremely loud at anything over 20, whereas before, I'd have to have the volume turned up to at least 25 if I wanted to actually hear the music over the road noise. And no, I don't have the gains so far up that I'm getting distortion, at least not that can hear anyway. The system still sounds very clean. For anyone using an Alpine HU, I highly recommend using a line driver on the sub out. The difference is unreal!


Interesting finds, thanks. I put my sub back in last night to play with it some more. For once, I maxed my amps sub gain. Finally it would blend at correct levels with my fronts to me. It doesnt blend so you can't hear it which is what a lot of people around here prefer. I can tell the sub is in my trunk, and it has a nice deep boom. Still, I just don't like it too much. I think my front end is too clean and perfect, and having this screwy sub setup just detracts from my front stage in a way. I am back through the passives on my type-x for now, gains 1/2 way. I think about throwing some mids in the rear doors sometimes, just cause I want more volume, plain and simple. More full rich sound. If I had a TRU 4.150 like before, I do think I'd be in a better situation. The front is plenty "loud" enough, just not very hearty and rich.


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## sonicnirvana (Jan 6, 2008)

grampi - have you tried resetting your HU with the little button behind the faceplate. I had a 7887 that did this once in a while and the reset trick brought it back to life.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

MadMaxSE-L said:


> I will have to agree with the OP - my 9887 has very weak sub outputs compared to my old 9831...
> 
> I even swapped out my Eclipse XA4000 for a DA7122 mono and I still have the same problem; when I turn the HU up past 20 or so, the sub amp shuts off. I think when you clip these Eclipse digital amps, they tend to shut down rather than continue clipping. While this may be a useful feature for component speaker amps, it sucks for sub amps. I have tried swapping out 3 different amps (problem persisted with 2 XA4000's and my current DA7122) and 2 different HU's (problem persisted with 9831 and current 9887).
> 
> ...


Eh? How are you clipping the amp with a weak preamp signal?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

ClinesSelect said:


> I'm starting to think that the Alpine decks I have used must have magical powers since I've never experienced any pre-out related issues with my amps, including a XA4000 and countless other amps.


You know all your equipment gets sprinkled with magical dust before delivery... Don't deny it! 

I think most people get confused about the sub preouts. As has been mentioned countless times, on Alpine headunits, +15 is actually 0, and 0 is -15. So in essence, this isn't a bass boost feature, although on other brands of headunits, similar adjustments typically are. By doing this, though, you're increasing the output voltage to the point where it will max before your volume does, which can lead to a clipped signal. On Alpines, "bass boost" is what the EQ is for.  Also, realize that max preout voltage technically isn't usually realized until the volume is at or close to max, which on Alpines is 35. I think this topic has been beaten dead in countless threads. Suffice it to say that plenty of people have tested their Alpine sub preout voltage and found it to be as advertised.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

Man I've never had a problem with Alpine's sub out, and honestly, I've not heard of other people having these problems until these recent posts. It is true, so I have heard, that Alpine's RCA outputs generally seem to produce less voltage than those of equally rated (2V, 4V, whatever) head units from other manufacturers. But perhaps, their units produce higher voltages quicker than the Alpines. With this I mean on a Pioneer for example, perhaps you reach 4V at 75% of HU volume (and turn it any higher and you end up clipping the signal), while on the Alpines, you don't reach it until 100% volume. I can personally vouch for my CDA-7995's sub out reaching 4V (measured) at exactly 35/35 volume, and +15 sub level, without any distortion whatsoever. So my theory is that people are just not using their Alpine head units to their full capabilities by using the generic 75% max volume rule and not playing them at 30+ volume levels.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

The problem is, on a Pioneer HU for example, adjusting the sub level can actually act as a "bass boost" (I HATE that term) which is what causes the preouts to reach max voltage before max volume. People attribute this to other brands having stronger preout voltage, when in essence, all they're doing is cranking up the voltage by adjusting the sub level. Alpines DO NOT HAVE THIS FEATURE ON THE SUB LEVEL ADJUSTMENT!!!!


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## MadMaxSE-L (Oct 19, 2006)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Eh? How are you clipping the amp with a weak preamp signal?


I think it's because I have the amp turned all the way up to get any considerable output from the sub. All I know is that the problem was no where near as bad with my old 9831, but it was still there...

In all honestly it is probably tuning. I haven't had much time to play with my system since I put the 9887 in anyway. I really cannot say for sure yet; it's just speculation as this point...

It's just weird that there is hardly any output from the sub from 3 different amps (all above 750w rms, and current one over 1000w rms...).

Now that I am thinking about this, I am going to play around a little (including a _proper _gain setting session  ) on my lunch break tonight and see what I can come up with. 

-Matt


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

You do realize that 4v is the max on that HU, don't you? The rating on a line preout is about as useful as the max rating on an amp. Even with your _music _at full volume, the HU is not going to crank out 4v _continuously_, because the waveforum drives the voltage.


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## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

a$$hole said:


> Appears to be "user error", Grampi if I were you, I'd take it to someone


If you were able to hear my system now, I doubt you'd say it sounds like there's any user error. It sounds fantastic!


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## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

All this is symantics. Everything we're dealing with here is all adjustments for the sub preamp signal. It doen't matter where the sub level control on HU, the amp gain, or the gains on the line driver are set as long as the system isn't being overdriven, and I can say with certainty mine's not. Also having my sub level control set for balanced sound at +5 (instead of having it maxed out at +15 all the time) works out perfectly. There are a couple of my CD's that have have such a high level of sub content that I've had to turn the sub level down to about +2 or +3, and I've played some where I've had to bump it up 2 or 3 notches. Either way, the system never loses composure and I now feel I can get the full potential from my system if I want where I couldn't before I installed the line driver.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Glad you got it figured out  Didn't the line driver simply allow you to blend your sub at +5 rather than +12 or +14 though, assuming the amp gain remained the same? It shouldn't affect the sound...


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## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

mikey7182 said:


> Glad you got it figured out  Didn't the line driver simply allow you to blend your sub at +5 rather than +12 or +14 though, assuming the amp gain remained the same? It shouldn't affect the sound...


No, the line driver also allowed me to turn up the amp gain for my comps too. So now instead of having to turn the volume up to 25 just to start to overcome road noise, the system achieves the same volume level starting at about 15. Now, 25 is extremely loud and 20-21 is loud enough for almost all listening sources.


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## ZoNtO (Sep 20, 2005)

But isn't that just relative? I don't get what the difference is if you achieve the same relative "loudness" at 25 or 20 on the HU...


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## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

ZoNtO said:


> But isn't that just relative? I don't get what the difference is if you achieve the same relative "loudness" at 25 or 20 on the HU...


The difference is before, my preamp input levels were so weak, when playing a CD that had a low source level, I could end up having the volume control maxed out at 35 and the system never would get loud. Now I have so much more input that I don't think I would be able to take turning it up to even 30 because the system would be so loud at that volume setting.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

When you tested the pre-out levels to confirm they were "so weak" what figures did you obtain?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Did you have it turned up to 35 with the amp gains turned all the way up as well?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

i've been having weak preout issues with my 9833 ever since switching to amps that require a linedriver to work properly. put in a tld66 and problem solved. now on most music 20 is loud and 25 is hella loud. my system as a whole isn't running out of steam before the music does anymore. gains on amps are all the way down and gains on linedriver are less than halfway.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

grampi said:


> The difference is before, my preamp input levels were so weak, when playing a CD that had a low source level, I could end up having the volume control maxed out at 35 and the system never would get loud. Now I have so much more input that I don't think I would be able to take turning it up to even 30 because the system would be so loud at that volume setting.


Then your system is now set up incorrectly. You shoudl reach max listnening level, with minimal clipping, at the max unclipped volume setting on your HU, in this case, 35.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> Then your system is now set up incorrectly. You shoudl reach max listnening level, with minimal clipping, at the max unclipped volume setting on your HU, in this case, 35.


what about music that's recorded low? the eagles-hotel california (1976 version) requires a big crank of the volume.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> what about music that's recorded low? the eagles-hotel california (1976 version) requires a big crank of the volume.


This is where a processor with a main volume control comes in handy. You can keep the gain on it at a lower level while you are playing music that is not too low and then bump it up on the processor for bad recordings. This way you can also put a lot of power into the speakers as well without worrying about accidentally blowing them since there is no way to go too high on the head unit volume. No need to be telling people "don't go past this number!"


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> This is where a processor with a main volume control comes in handy. You can keep the gain on it at a lower level while you are playing music that is not too low and then bump it up on the processor for bad recordings. This way you can also put a lot of power into the speakers as well without worrying about accidentally blowing them since there is no way to go too high on the head unit volume. No need to be telling people "don't go past this number!"


but what's wrong with setting gains with a low recorded disc and having most music plenty loud at half volume? the volume is a great tool for headroom


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> but what's wrong with setting gains with a low recorded disc and having most music plenty loud at half volume? the volume is a great tool for headroom


No nothing, I was just saying it as a way to get around the low recording level problem if you wanted to have maximum volume at 35 for good quality music.


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

I always shoot to have my volume at 20-24 for the max i ever listen.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> what about music that's recorded low? the eagles-hotel california (1976 version) requires a big crank of the volume.



I understand that, but from what I've read it seems like all he wants is it for it to be loud...and to do it at a lower volume setting which doesn't make any sense. Yes, if he's setting it up for something with a lot of headroom and lower normal playback volumes I can see why he's getting a lot more volume at lower volumes with normal music, but I don't ever recall seeing him say it was isolated to one type of music. Which leads me to think he's WAY to preoccupied with the number on the screen. 

I hate to think what he'd have done back in the day when nothing had a volume number on a screen.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

placenta said:


> I always shoot to have my volume at 20-24 for the max i ever listen.


Why? If the HU goes to 35 and you set it to do so you're minimizing he noise floor. Setting it to reach your max listening level at 20-25 just makes you turn the gains up unnecessarily, raises the noise floor, and will increase how much clipping you run into.


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## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

i skimmed so maybe this has been covered

+15 = 0 in alpine world.

It really should read -15 to 0, instead of 0 to 15.


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## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

ClinesSelect said:


> When you tested the pre-out levels to confirm they were "so weak" what figures did you obtain?


???????


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## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

mikey7182 said:


> Did you have it turned up to 35 with the amp gains turned all the way up as well?


Before I installed the line driver, I had the sub amp gain maxed and the sub level control on the HU maxed, but the gain for the comps was only at half. Now I have both amp gains at about 3/4 and the HU's sub level control is typically set at +5.


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## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> This is where a processor with a main volume control comes in handy. You can keep the gain on it at a lower level while you are playing music that is not too low and then bump it up on the processor for bad recordings. This way you can also put a lot of power into the speakers as well without worrying about accidentally blowing them since there is no way to go too high on the head unit volume. No need to be telling people "don't go past this number!"


I already have a tool for knowing how high is too high. It's called my ears. My system will play WWWWAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY louder than I could ever stand
before doing damage to it.


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## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

MidnightCE said:


> i skimmed so maybe this has been covered
> 
> +15 = 0 in alpine world.
> 
> It really should read -15 to 0, instead of 0 to 15.


Yes, but what is the point of having a sub output level adjustment if you have to have it set at +15 all the time? You should be able to setup your system in such a way so you can actually use this control as an adjustment.


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## dtviewer (Dec 18, 2006)

grampi said:


> Yes, but what is the point of having a sub output level adjustment if you have to have it set at +15 all the time? You should be able to setup your system in such a way so you can actually use this control as an adjustment.


I agree and that is how I set mine up. I set the bass control at 10 when I set my gains. That way I have a little room to move it up or down as needed. Usually I leave it at 10, but I can go up a couple notches when I really want to get on it.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

dtviewer said:


> I agree and that is how I set mine up. I set the bass control at 10 when I set my gains. That way I have a little room to move it up or down as needed. Usually I leave it at 10, but I can go up a couple notches when I really want to get on it.


8-10 is my "SQ setting" but I usually run between 12 and 13, because I want to  I do like the idea of having a little wiggle room inthere for recordings that may need some help on a day you just may feel rammy...... and yes, my gain control on the sub channel on my amp os pinned or nearly pinned.


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> Change "some" to "all". If it's an Alpine with a sub out, +15 is normal output and 0 is attenuated. It's been like that since Alpine started putting sub out in their HUs.


That's correct. The front/rear outputs are actually attenuated to match the sub output when the sub is set to 0. I really, _really_ hate this about Alpine H/Us. But I still use them when I can...


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## pyfocal (Aug 12, 2007)

What is the level for low frequency in your 9887's crossover set to.I believe it goes from -12 to 0.Mine was on -12 when I installed my 9887 and I didn't have much sub output untill I found it.I had the sub level at +15 but the level in the crossover was -12.Now I have the crossover level at 0 and run the sub level anywhere from 5 to 12 with different CD's.Sorry if this was already covered.


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## 69cents (Mar 21, 2008)

Hi guys, after reading all the replies, I'm kinda confuse now, some say this, some say that about the sub level adjustment.
I have Alpine CDA 9835 H.U, will be running OS RF Punch 400x4(Mid & Tweet) and OS RF Punch 200x2(Sub) and want to set my amp gain without clipping or hurting my equipment, so how do I really do it?? Sub level at -15 or 0 or +15? Which amp gain do I adjust first?
I'm gona run 3 way active btw. Thx...


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I usually do it at around +7 so I can go up or down if I need to.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I noticed that when I went from the Alpine 7949 to the 7995 I had to turn the gains up a little on the sub amp to get it to hit like it did before with the 7949...


so yes its a little weak...but I have been able to make it work with a little adjustment..

now I am using a 7996...


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

69cents said:


> Hi guys, after reading all the replies, I'm kinda confuse now, some say this, some say that about the sub level adjustment.
> I have Alpine CDA 9835 H.U, will be running OS RF Punch 400x4(Mid & Tweet) and OS RF Punch 200x2(Sub) and want to set my amp gain without clipping or hurting my equipment, so how do I really do it?? Sub level at -15 or 0 or +15? Which amp gain do I adjust first?
> I'm gona run 3 way active btw. Thx...


the plan sounds a little unbalanced, is your front stage amp twice as powerful as your sub amp? usually you will need the other way round to even be able to hear the sub. just know that your sub amps gain will probably need to be a lot higher than your front amps gain.


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

It may not be politically correct, but my sub gain is maxed. I tone it down to an aceeptable level at the head unit. With some lousy recordings I find it's still at +15... even with the gain maxed.


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

BEAVER said:


> It may not be politically correct, but my sub gain is maxed. I tone it down to an aceeptable level at the head unit. With some lousy recordings I find it's still at +15... even with the gain maxed.


I had a lot of problems with that type of thing until I figured everything out. I solved by by ensuring my front stage is not loud enough until 26-30 volume on alpine 9887. That easily let my hear the subs at only +8. Most people put the front stage amp gains way too high. This happens because they are way more sensitive than the subs, thus get loud much faster than the sub. Then the sub gain is very unbalanced to reach the same levels.


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

I have everything set to jam at 25.


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

BEAVER said:


> I have everything set to jam at 25.


hmm.. now that i think back on it, my low sub problems were always when i had a single sub. ever since i went to dual 10's the problem vanished.. (although my subs are uninstalled now)


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## Luciano (Apr 12, 2008)

Hey guys I'm not sure what all are doing with their alpine units but I've never really noticed that the pre-outs have felt weak. I have owned several units including 5 volt kenwood excelons, pioneer premier dolphin decks (cant remember model number just the swimming dolphin display) eclipse cd8054 and cd8053, and now finally my alpine units. I have had a dva-9861 and now the idva-310 and i find that the pre-outs were not weak at all. I know and fully understand that the gain levels had all been adjusted differently on every unit that was installed in my car. But i never found that i had any issues with sub volume or blending of my components. I have tons of bass and tons of component volume aswell and my sub control is set to 0. I really don't see where the problem lies with the preouts. Especially with those that own the h-701 aswell. I mean the even the X-over can be attenuated as well. I have a mrd-m1000 watt sub amp on a single type x 12 sealed and i find that it is more than enough bass to keep up with my bi-amped type x components. I have a pdx-2.150 on the mids and another 2.150 on the tweets. Maybe my system is just a freak and i don't require all the extra voltage


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

I don't have a problem with mine either... I mean my gain is pegged, but on most material the sub level is adjusted down on the head unit. It works fine for me.


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## Luciano (Apr 12, 2008)

BEAVER said:


> I don't have a problem with mine either... I mean my gain is pegged, but on most material the sub level is adjusted down on the head unit. It works fine for me.


Beaver on the mrd-m1000 i don't like the gain at all it is basically on.... on really loud.... or on bust, lol. So i had to turn down the sub gain and the x-over attenuation on the h-701. i am not using the p-eq on the amp either or the bass boost. At four ohms the amp is rated for 600 rms ish give or take. I only have the gain on the amp at 6 db out of 9 or 12db i believe and i dont think the sub could take anymore (safely).


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

It's easier to blame it on weak preouts than to acknowledge that the sub/amp/enclosure combo has no chance of meeting a person's expectations regardless of the preout signal.


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## Luciano (Apr 12, 2008)

ClinesSelect said:


> It's easier to blame it on weak preouts than to acknowledge that the sub/amp/enclosure combo has no chance of meeting a person's expectations regardless of the preout signal.


I really have to get to see some of these great SQ cars, I live in eastern Canada and there are no SQ events at all . That being said I cant imagine how bass in a SQ car can get really loud before the vehicle itself starts to develop internal rattles. I understand that you can have tight hard hitting bass, but how much is too much???


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## lbc240 (Mar 1, 2008)

As I work for an alpine dealer, I can attest to the notion of "weak" sub outputs on alpine decks. there are 3 causes to this misconception: 
1. +15 is a flat, full output. It is not a +15 boost. It is what other decks would call 0
2. Most other decks can boost the bass to +20 (I'm looking at you pioneer), so if you're used to that, than i can see your point
3. Some people feel ripped if they have to turn their deck to 30 to get full output. I don't understand this and I guess i never will. I actually had a customer brag to me once that he only has to "turn it up to 4 and it's already loud." that was also the most terrible sounding system i've ever heard. He thought that was a good thing. Amazingly ignorant.

The only time i have a complaint is when using the internal amp on an aline with very efficient speakers, the internal amp clips at like 20 so that can be a problem


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

lbc240 said:


> As I work for an alpine dealer, I can attest to the notion of "weak" sub outputs on alpine decks. there are 3 causes to this misconception:
> 1. +15 is a flat, full output. It is not a +15 boost. It is what other decks would call 0
> 2. Most other decks can boost the bass to +20 (I'm looking at you pioneer), so if you're used to that, than i can see your point
> 3. Some people feel ripped if they have to turn their deck to 30 to get full output. I don't understand this and I guess i never will. I actually had a customer brag to me once that he only has to "turn it up to 4 and it's already loud." that was also the most terrible sounding system i've ever heard. He thought that was a good thing. Amazingly ignorant.
> ...


I chuckled several times 

1. True, it is an attenuator, I would feel better if it went from -15 to 0, if alpine did this it would alleviate MUCH confusion.

2. I Would like to see proof in this, I would understand a bit more potential oomph on the sub channels, but a 20dB boost is VERY substantial, very.

3. The alpine will actually continue to full output to the extent of it's master travel BUT if you put a boost anywhere on the EQ, even at 20K it will peel those boost increments off of the master volume, so if you put a boost of "6" at 20K the volume of the master will cease to increase at 29, up to 35 no increase. I firmly believe people are seeing this phenomena. I imagine alpine did this to prevent gross clipping from boost, but I also feel it should be documented int he manual, and I have read from cover to cover 

nice post!

Chad


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## coke (May 6, 2008)

I used a 9813 for a while, but then switched back to my 7940. The 7940 outputs are much stronger. The 9813 seemed to clip around 25 which seems to be common, but can't confirm this.

I usually set the sub out around 7 so i have room to move it up or down as needed.


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

My whole system is now uninstalled, and i have some cheap coaxials running off my deck power. I will be interested to test all these theories about deck power now.


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## lbc240 (Mar 1, 2008)

chad said:


> I chuckled several times
> 
> 2. I Would like to see proof in this, I would understand a bit more potential oomph on the sub channels, but a 20dB boost is VERY substantial, very.


Ok that was a bit of an exageration (ok a lot), but you get the idea that they really should have labeled it -15 to 0 because any other brand +15 would mean +15. Most other brands have a level boost, but I suppose it's closer to 6db Not that it's a huge problem how it is, but more consistency between brands would be nice.



chad said:


> 3. The alpine will actually continue to full output to the extent of it's master travel BUT if you put a boost anywhere on the EQ, even at 20K it will peel those boost increments off of the master volume, so if you put a boost of "6" at 20K the volume of the master will cease to increase at 29, up to 35 no increase. I firmly believe people are seeing this phenomena. I imagine alpine did this to prevent gross clipping from boost, but I also feel it should be documented int he manual, and I have read from cover to cover


This is VERY true. I've metered a few alpine decks and they will NEVER allow the Low level outputs to clip, EVER. that means that they will start cutting the EQ boost so that the total volume is not >35, so that at volume 35, the eq settings will be at +0. This does not apply to the sub control volume though as +15 = 0. Anyway, who has their bass and treble at +7 anyway (well besides the guy with 5 tweeters and max volume at 4) ?


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## 99StangGT (Jun 12, 2005)

I have also found that the music has a impact on how far you can turn up the volume and the sub output. My 9835 on some sounds like some dire straights I can turn it all the way to 35. On most other songs i cant go beyond say 27. Im not running an amp on my speakers right now just the sub. even when I was running 3 amps it was the same. Im doing the Ghetto active off deck power and Im hating it but have to wait to get an amp and install wiring.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

lbc240 said:


> This is VERY true. I've metered a few alpine decks and they will NEVER allow the Low level outputs to clip, EVER. that means that they will start cutting the EQ boost so that the total volume is not >35, so that at volume 35, the eq settings will be at +0. This does not apply to the sub control volume though as +15 = 0. Anyway, who has their bass and treble at +7 anyway (well besides the guy with 5 tweeters and max volume at 4) ?


See, that kicked my ass! :blush: I planned my design around a predictable off-axis response that requires a boost to compensate (PEQ in a 9855) well... this boost peeled the volume control back even though it would NEVER clip due to the boosting at such a high frequency due to the simple lack of energy there in pretty much ALL recordings. So i guess my question for you.... and you may be on the DIYMA ladder for hero status. What if I, say, boost the EQ and the increment is "3" then peel "3" off of the high output in the level settings page, do I get that "3" back in the master volume section?



99StangGT said:


> I have also found that the music has a impact on how far you can turn up the volume and the sub output. My 9835 on some sounds like some dire straights I can turn it all the way to 35. On most other songs i cant go beyond say 27. Im not running an amp on my speakers right now just the sub. even when I was running 3 amps it was the same. Im doing the Ghetto active off deck power and Im hating it but have to wait to get an amp and install wiring.



This is becuase Dire straits has a low average level (RMS) whereas music that is in the "volume war" had a very high average level. Both albums hit 0dBFS, the latter just does it all the damn time  In other words Dire Straits is more dynamic, one must be careful if you are used to modern "pop" music when listening to more dynamic material, see as I said, both will hit their peak at the same level, one does it all the time so "27" may be fine" but when the more dynamic media hits that level you have your volume considerably higher and your chances for damaging drivers start going up.


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## 69cents (Mar 21, 2008)

So guys, I just boost my sub level to +15 and set my amp gain to match 4v then I'm good to go? Is that how you really match alpine H.U and amp gain?


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

lbc240 said:


> As I work for an alpine dealer, I can attest to the notion of "weak" sub outputs on alpine decks. there are 3 causes to this misconception:
> 1. +15 is a flat, full output. It is not a +15 boost. It is what other decks would call 0
> 2. Most other decks can boost the bass to +20 (I'm looking at you pioneer), so if you're used to that, than i can see your point
> 3. Some people feel ripped if they have to turn their deck to 30 to get full output. I don't understand this and I guess i never will. I actually had a customer brag to me once that he only has to "turn it up to 4 and it's already loud." that was also the most terrible sounding system i've ever heard. He thought that was a good thing. Amazingly ignorant.
> ...


Would you say it's Alpines attempt at installing a sort of fail safe device into their gear?

To prevent the *DIPSHIT BONEHEADS* from blowing things up?

Thats what I've always felt of this *COMPLAINT* about Alpine decks.

Where the "special" higher end decks are set up to be 0 at 0 they will more than likely find their way into a more mature persons system.

Alpine puts *training wheels* on their decks.

Nothing wrong with that.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

GlasSman said:


> Would you say it's Alpines attempt at installing a sort of fail safe device into their gear?
> 
> To prevent the *DIPSHIT BONEHEADS* from blowing things up?
> 
> ...


I'm not following your theory here, It is indeed an attenuator then it should be set up as attenuation, professional amps are at 0dB when wide open and the gains are calculated in Decibels of attenuation  Regardless, a sensitivity control on an amplifier is just that, if it's set up different and can be made sensitive enough the gain staging CAN be set up in a way such that there is 15 units of boost  In no way is it a training wheel other than the possible introduction of noise from setting up the gains for that scenario.

We need standardazation big time.....


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Everything on here sounds like gain settings issues. I can't remember if alpine's decks clip their pre-out at any point, so lets assume they clip above 30 out of 35 on the volume scale. If this is the case, to set your gains properly, you should:

A: turn all gains on all amps down to minimum. (counter clockwise) 

B: set all tone controls (Bass/Treble/Mid), loudness,(MX or BBE on alpine decks), bass boost, to 0, or off. Turn any bass boost on the amp off as well. (This is vital!)

C: next, turn the level on your deck to 30 on the volume scale

D: play an average disc. Preferably something with natural instruments in it so you can hear when the amp clips hard, instead of thinking it was the distortion in the music. Dave Mathews or Days of the New works well for me. 

E: Bring the gain up slowly on the front speakers until they start to clip (sound fuzzy, distort, make noises other than music). Then back it off a hair so the clipping stops.

F: Bring the gain up slowly on the rear speakers using the same method as E (or if you want a clearer, more solid front stage, turn the gains up until you hear the rears at all with the fronts playing, and then back it down a hair so you don't hear them)

G: Adjust sub level control on the radio to 10 of 15 (my oppinion so you have the ability to boost at lower levels by 5) Then bring the sub gain up using the same method as E. 

Your gains are now set properly. If Alpine decks produce unclipped output at 35 of 35 on the volume scale, which I think they do, then adjust to 35, and set all your gains using something like Dire Straights. 

If you are setting all your gains at 20 of 35, and then you use a line driver to "boost" preout voltage, you are wasting your decks capabilitys. You probably did not "need" the line driver, although it probably will still help raise your noise floor. 

I see too many People leaving the gains on whatever they come out of the box at, then bringing the volume up till it sounds loud, and still trying to turn the gains up. I would be willing to bet $5 that if Grampi used this method, he most likely would not feel the alpine's sub preouts were weak. Mine aren't, and I'm running 2 alpine decks with no issues. A CDA-7892 and an IVAW200. 

If you are not amping your inside speakers, alpines decks do clip the internal amp above 21-22. This can make it hard to get full sub output without maxing the gains on many sub amps, the easy solution? amp the fronts! lol


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

I'd also like to add that I too have never understood people who try to brag that their amp gains are set low, and explain that this means their amp is more powerful because the gain can be turned up. The only benefit to keeping the amp gain low is that you amplify less of the emi and rfi noise from the car. This is the same reason you would set your gains with your deck near max, and why some people install a line driver. It's not to get more volume. The only way to get more volume is with a larger amp, and larger or more capable or more efficient speakers. (by larger I mean more powerful)


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## lbc240 (Mar 1, 2008)

chad said:


> See, that kicked my ass! :blush: I planned my design around a predictable off-axis response that requires a boost to compensate (PEQ in a 9855) well... this boost peeled the volume control back even though it would NEVER clip due to the boosting at such a high frequency due to the simple lack of energy there in pretty much ALL recordings.


The thing is.. It could be clipping at those high frequencies. There's no way for alpine to know what type of music you're playing. You're correct that most music wouldn't ever clip at those high frequencies, but some could. Alpine has to assume that all music is heavily compressed and recorded at -0db. The best way to set gains if you are using an eq boost of +7 would be to set it using a 0db sine wave with the volume set at 35 and using a DMM after the amp. You could never turn it above 27 if you want to keep your boost. The reason for this is that you could get clipping at the boost frequency above volume 27. Though it's fairly unlikely, it's still very possible. 

So yes, set your gains with the sub control at +15 and the volume at 35 if you absolutely do not want clipping to occur.

Now all that's great in a theoretical world... but this is real life and I understand that there are bad recordings that use a level that's too low and simply do not have enough bass. So what I usually do is set my gains with the volume at 30 and the sub control at 8. You have to understand though, if you set it this way, you will get clipping on a good recording if you turn it above 30 with the sub at more than +8, even if you don't think you can hear it, it's still there. You'd be amazed at how much distortion you can put into music before the average person would pick up on it. It takes a VERY well trained ear to even hear 1% distortion in actual music.. It's almost inaudible..


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

lbc240 said:


> The thing is.. It could be clipping at those high frequencies. There's no way for alpine to know what type of music you're playing. You're correct that most music wouldn't ever clip at those high frequencies, but some could. Alpine has to assume that all music is heavily compressed and recorded at -0db. The best way to set gains if you are using an eq boost of +7 would be to set it using a 0db sine wave with the volume set at 35 and using a DMM after the amp. You could never turn it above 27 if you want to keep your boost. The reason for this is that you could get clipping at the boost frequency above volume 27. Though it's fairly unlikely, it's still very possible.
> 
> So yes, set your gains with the sub control at +15 and the volume at 35 if you absolutely do not want clipping to occur.
> 
> Now all that's great in a theoretical world... but this is real life and I understand that there are *bad recordings *that use a level that's too low and simply do not have enough bass. So what I usually do is set my gains with the volume at 30 and the sub control at 8. You have to understand though, if you set it this way, you will get clipping on a good recording if you turn it above 30 with the sub at more than +8, even if you don't think you can hear it, it's still there. You'd be amazed at how much distortion you can put into music before the average person would pick up on it. It takes a VERY well trained ear to even hear 1% distortion in actual music.. It's almost inaudible..


I have yet to find a source of music with that much HF content, it just don't happen.

You are correct, they are called *properly* recorded albums


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## lbc240 (Mar 1, 2008)

chad said:


> You are correct, they are called *properly* recorded albums


well no, A properly recorded album will have spikes in the volume getting damn close to 0db, even if the average is more like -20db. Why would a quality sound engineer throw away dynamic range from -1db to -3db. The answer is they don't, and those albums I don't have a problem with. I'm talking about the ones you get from your 'buddy" on a burnt disk or from the internet that are simply not right at all. A good recording may sound quieter than todays typically compressed pop-crap, but the high level on the disk will still clip if you turn the past 30 after you set your max gain at 30. The difference is that the good recording only reaches that level for a few milliseconds and a bad (or dynamically compressed) recording spends 90% of the track at only -1db. Why would a quality sound engineer throw away dynamic range from -0db to -3db

here's an example of dynamic compression:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ

The original recording has a couple peaks damn close to 0db, but the "remastered" recording has LOTS of peaks at 0db so the clipping will be a lot easier to hear. That's why you can't turn some music up as loud... it has a higher RMS level than a "good" recording, but the good recording will still clip, just not as audibly.

Oh and BTW, I have a couple of rap and electronic tracks that have PLENTY of HF info to start clipping.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

lbc240 said:


> well no, A properly recorded album will have spikes in the volume getting damn close to 0db, even if the average is more like -20db. Why would a quality sound engineer throw away dynamic range from -1db to -3db. The answer is they don't, and those albums I don't have a problem with. I'm talking about the ones you get from your 'buddy" on a burnt disk or from the internet that are simply not right at all. A good recording may sound quieter than todays typically compressed pop-crap, but the high level on the disk will still clip if you turn the past 30 after you set your max gain at 30. The difference is that the good recording only reaches that level for a few milliseconds and a bad (or dynamically compressed) recording spends 90% of the track at only -1db. Why would a quality sound engineer throw away dynamic range from -0db to -3db
> 
> here's an example of dynamic compression:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ
> ...


I know a bit about compression 

Your buddy needs to quit the game if you get CD's that bad.

What rap tracks, lets do some spectrum analysis


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