# What am i doing wrong? sloppy/muddy bass



## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

i hope this is the correct forum to ask this question. 

I have a 10" W6 v2. i purchased it with the hopes that it would be a good punchy sub. to my dissapointment the double bass of rock music is pretty "muddy" and somewhat "sloppy" 

I have the W6 mounted on a sealed box to recommened specs. .65cubes or .75 cubes. I did have a shop build the box so i am not 100% how accurate the box is. i have the sub currently Lp at 80hz, i had it at 100hz, but no real improvement. How can i get the "hit you in the gut" punch from the sub? 

Thanks

CC


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

I'll give you the canned answer. Most of the time, when people complain about "muddy" and "sloppy" bass, the problem isn't the subwoofer or the box itself. The problem usually has to do with how it's blending with the rest of the system. You're right to play with crossover points (adjust the HPF too). You should also play with levels, and consider changing the polarity on the sub. If you have access to time alignment, double-check that the settings are what they should be. If you don't, see if the issues go away when you sit in different locations in the car.

There's also the possibility that your main speakers are the culprit. It's very common for people to blame their sub for problems that ultimately lie with the 6" woofers in the front.


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## King Nothing (Oct 10, 2005)

Measure the box and find out how big it actually is


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## denetnz (Jul 31, 2009)

How much power do you have running to it? What amp are you using?


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## ousooner2 (Jan 6, 2011)

How's your midbass? 

Also, JL's specs are pretty small. I'd go with 1cuft for the 10w6.


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## ou812 (Oct 25, 2008)

I'm thinking the mids.


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## adrenalinejunkie (Oct 17, 2010)

Poly fill can help assuming all other adjustments are done properly.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

vwjmkv said:


> i hope this is the correct forum to ask this question.
> 
> I have a 10" W6 v2. i purchased it with the hopes that it would be a good punchy sub. to my dissapointment the double bass of rock music is pretty "muddy" and somewhat "sloppy"
> 
> ...


You mention double-bass in rock music? Are you saying like a tight double-kick drum in the music? Are the hits indistinct and seem like they aren't in time with the rest of the music? I would play with phase, and definitely time-alignment if you have it. Sit in different seats and see if it "lines up" better. My gut guess in your situation seems like a phase/integration issue as others have said.


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## audiobaun (Jun 8, 2011)

1.6-1.8 cu ft ported perfect for just about any 10


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## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

looks like i will be playing around a lot with this sub to get the sound i want.

@94VG30DE yes i mean the double bass drum. as in speed metal. i don't quite hear it. i think it should much more pronounced than what I'm hearing. i will be re-tuning all speakers to make sure all are dialed in correctly. 

as of now i don't have time alignment so that won't be able to help me now. Thank you for the input. 

CC


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

I'm going to have to agree with the ones talking about your mids/midbass... 

Double bass, you have to think about.. it's covering more than just sub frequency... 

The "whap" that you love, mostly midbass, higher frequency material, the power is down lower in the subs range, but it's mostly backing the midbass... 

In very general terms, a larger box tends to be looser with less control, where a smaller box is the oppisite.. 

Maybe try adding some 2x4's to the box, take up KNOWN volume (you can measure 2x4's) make it smaller and try... 

on the flip side, you can add polyfill to make the box seem "larger" to the sub... 

Thoughts to consider..


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## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> I'm going to have to agree with the ones talking about your mids/midbass...
> 
> Double bass, you have to think about.. it's covering more than just sub frequency...
> 
> ...


Thanks! this info is very helpful. i can tackle the problem with a plan. 

CC


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## CrossFired (Jan 24, 2008)

In a SQ setup, the subs are there to support the mids. In every good SQ system I've heard, most if not all of the bass sounds as if it's coming from the mids/doors. If you can hear the woofers, your gains are too high or your cross is to high. Sounds like you need more power on your mids.

Some TA and EQ would not hurt either.

Cant just install the stuff and expect it to sound dead nuts, without putting in a little tuning time.




vwjmkv said:


> i hope this is the correct forum to ask this question.
> 
> I have a 10" W6 v2. i purchased it with the hopes that it would be a good punchy sub. to my dissapointment the double bass of rock music is pretty "muddy" and somewhat "sloppy"
> 
> ...


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## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

CrossFired said:


> In a SQ setup, the subs are there to support the mids. In every good SQ system I've heard, most if not all of the bass sounds as if it's coming from the mids/doors. If you can hear the woofers, your gains are too high or your cross is to high. Sounds like you need more power on your mids.
> 
> Some TA and EQ would not hurt either.
> 
> Cant just install the stuff and expect it to sound dead nuts, without putting in a little tuning time.


Im aware that slapping the equipement in the car is never enough. 

I am currently running 150W just to the midbass up front. and 75W to the tweeters and 3" midranges in a passive Xover up front and 75W to the rears. 

Ill have to play with Xover points to try to get what i want. Crossover points seem to be a pretty big role from the reqading im doing on the forums. obviously this is my first run aropund with a good setup. Thanks for your input everyone, its very helpful

CC


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

Strangely enough I use Ram Trilogy as a test track for a double tap bass line, plus it a track that I like. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9kiGpzLCRc

There's a double bass tap in it which my DD struggled with. I reverse the polarity (suggested to me) and set the LPF at 60. However now I have it set at 50, its' tightened the bass even further, however fro some strange reason the double tap bass line has gone. My issue is that I have my Morel Tempo 6 in the kicks because i have no door speaker pods. I feel with a stronger midbass presence up front, it would solve a few overall bass issues.

But cutting lower (to 50hz) has cleaned the bass up a whole lot. Not saying it'll be good for you system, but it worked for mine.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

captainscarlett said:


> There's a double bass tap in it which my DD struggled with. I reverse the polarity (suggested to me) and set the LPF at 60. However now I have it set at 50, its' tightened the bass even further, however fro some strange reason the double tap bass line has gone. My issue is that I have my Morel Tempo 6 in the kicks because i have no door speaker pods. I feel with a stronger midbass presence up front, it would solve a few overall bass issues.
> 
> But cutting lower (to 50hz) has cleaned the bass up a whole lot. Not saying it'll be good for you system, but it worked for mine.


This is probably due to what a few guys in this thread have been saying. It's defined by what's going on in the "midbass" frequencies moreso than the lower bass. When you lowered the LPF point, you probably smoothed the sub's response more (when it's only playing an octave, it's not a wide enough bandwidth to have a FR problem).

Audio systems have a natural rolloff at the lower end. Especially people who use sealed enclosures. But it's there for other reasons too. To compensate for this rolloff, the natural inclination of most users is to increase the level of their sub. Makes sense, but when they do this they're also increasing the level of the higher frequency bass (e.g. ~80Hz), which makes the sub do a bad job of blending with the main speakers. This is why people tend to have so much trouble with that crossover point. I would wager that the vast majority of people who run low crossover points on their sub do so because of this phenomenon.

So yes, it's a valid way of dealing with the issue, as you've seen yourself. But another way would be to work towards getting the sub to blend better with the main speakers, and AFTER you achieve that, THEN worry about how to improve the low end response. And there are a number of ways to do that, such as:

* using "bass boost"
* using a different enclosure or sub positioning strategy 
* adding tactile transducers
* dealing with the phase issues that also accompany the low end attenuation
* improving the "midbass" response of the main speakers, which may be part of the reason the sub isn't blending well


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## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

i switched polarity on one of my mids, improved sound. only did one because it was on my lunch break. so i need to switch polarity on other mid?


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

vwjmkv said:


> i switched polarity on one of my mids, improved sound. only did one because it was on my lunch break. so i need to switch polarity on other mid?


I would try it to see how it sounds, but nothing saying they have to be electrical phase.


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## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

thank you, i think it will improve sound further, right now i feel that there is more bump from the left. will see and update THANK YOU ALL FOR HELP!

CC


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## ousooner2 (Jan 6, 2011)

Wouldn't swapping polarity on both mids just put him back in the same boat, but with a waveform that's 180 degree's opposite?


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## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

ousooner2 said:


> Wouldn't swapping polarity on both mids just put him back in the same boat, but with a waveform that's 180 degree's opposite?


only one way to find out. imoff work now and ill post my results. cross my fingers.

CC


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Keep us posted. If you swapped just one mid and there was an improvement, then this points to the possibility that the mids are at fault. Maybe it countered the so-called "suckout" phenomenon? Or maybe the crossover between all three speakers is whacked. 

This is where measurements would come in handy, btw.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network 

^ can help you understand what other posters have said about midbasses/mids... 

Kelvin


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> In very general terms, a larger box tends to be looser with less control, where a smaller box is the oppisite..
> 
> ..


Nope. This is incorrect. The smaller box adds a stiffer spring and the result is higher Q, which means more overshoot. The larger box will play lower frequencies more easily. 

the problem isn't the sub, the size of the box or whether it has polyfill or not. The sound you're missing is in the midbass and the harmonics are much farther up in th midrange. You need an EQ and someone to tune the car.


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## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

well, switching polarity help... a little, still not getting the thump im looking with just that adjustment. i will be playing with Xover settings and i am already on the hunt for new front stagee. what i have now is pretty hodge podge. JBL 6.5" JBL 1" tweeter, and PPI 2" midrange. will also be purchaing a DSP in the future (summer-ish?) or may wait for AudioControl to come out with a new DSP, ive heard they are in the work for a new DQXS to include a bunch of goodies. including T/A which is something i seemingly desparately need.

CC


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