# Let the Audiogal Mid-bass experimental journey begin



## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

All, I thought I would share my journey on replacing my current 6.5" MB door drivers with something totally different and off the wall. and since @jimmydee ( a newly minted moderator) is from my local car audio community I thought I was share out my effort to support some content from the Canuk contingent. So here we go.

Previous setup:

Car: 2015 Yaris - restrain the laughter please 
Front stage:
tweeter - Brax GL1
Mid - Brx GL3
MB - Brax GL6

I was really happy with this setup. Unfortunately I was finding that for what I like the 6.5" was just not quite keeping up physically. So I started looking at solutions. I like keeping speakers within a family sound and design principals. 

After much deliberation, humming and hawing and theorizing I knew I wanted to try an 8" driver up front.

After more analysis paralysis and head scratching I made my decision in collaboration with MSC Canada. 

I decided to make the jump to the ML8-Mid. In my mind it would fit and I could make it work. It is a beautiful driver and I had super high expectations assumingI held up my end of the deal doing it justice in the install.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Next I needed a design. Something that would fit and be something I could build.

I explored mounting it to the door IB but I ruled that out after some investigation and Vulcan logic. I new in the back of my mind I was wanting a sealed enclosure on my doors and that is what I was going to do.

I bought a router and learned to use it reasonable well and I needed to buy a new jigsaw because my other one broke in half cutting 1" think Baltic birch plywood.

The enclosure specification I wanted to target was 15 liters and I got super close landing at 14 liters in the end. WINSD showed a marginal difference and in the end that proved true.

The enclosure material was going to be entirely made of Baltic birch, be sealed and be bolted to the inner metal door skin with not cutting and hitting a interior volume of 14L.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

I started off making a bunch of circles







.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

I then sawed them in half using a crappy jig I made.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Now I was able to route some mounting area for the sides and attach the sides including gluing the end caps together.

I also mounted the bottom piece. Everything is glued together and clamped.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Dry fitting the ML8 and wanting it as far forward as possible to have vertical alignment with my front stage which is important to me. It was balance of car dash clearance and as far forward as possible


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Routing and installing a recess area for the seat controls.


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## lingling1337 (Oct 14, 2019)

This is gonna be good!


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

And now creating the front baffle and speaker mounting hole.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

They look amazing!! I'm guessing the hard part begins now?


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Adding a few dowel's for some internal bracing.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

The suspense is killing me! Beautiful craftswomanship!


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

And mounting to the door and cutting the interior plastic door panel. This was done with a jigsaw, Dremel and tin snips. the tin snips worked the best. There is a lot of compound curves (no flat spots) so it took a lot of time (hours) .

The good news is it fit and no adjustment was needed. my prep work and test fitting really paid off here.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

With that pressure point out of the way I could work on finishing out the encloses and building the grill.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

the enclosure assembled and attached to the door. I used magnets to attach the grill to the enclosure which has been working fabulously.

I could play tunes for the first time and OMGosh I was totally blown away with what I was hearing even with a sub-optimal tune. Night and day from a door IB install.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

OK time to cover , almost there. I used a single piece of carpet for the enclosure no seams and a single piece of vinyl for the grills. First time doing all of this so it was exciting and nerve wrecking.

I am super happy with the final results.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

So that is my epic adventure and I could not be happier with the final results. Everything across the SQ board is improved and the sealed enclosure in the door is amazing. there is absolutely almost zero vibration from the enclosure its self and nothing at all into the doors what so ever. the lack of door resonance is just ear opening to say the least. I could get into more details if any body is interested and/or curious.

the bonus is I learned new tools and skills and would be willing to try more complex builds in the future


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## lingling1337 (Oct 14, 2019)

Full enclosure with no fiberglass, love it. Maybe I'm dense but I don't see how the box is mounted to the door?


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

miniSQ said:


> They look amazing!! I'm guessing the hard part begins now?


LOL ya it sure did but I changed my mind about 50 times on the enclosure design before the light went off. I say I hated trimming the door is an understatement!. Now that I have an idea what I am doing the 3rd Door will be perfect, LOL!


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

lingling1337 said:


> Full enclosure with no fiberglass, love it. Maybe I'm dense but I don't see how the box is mounted to the door?


Ya I made it a mission to not use fiberglass and i am not convinced it does any favors acoustically unless done very very very well. Plus I like working with wood and i could make it work and maximize the interior volume.

You not be dense, lol. I forgot to mention that I used threaded nutserts (5/16) to rivet mount to the enclosure to the door and it is solid. I can rock the car lifting on the enclosure.

I also mass dampened the enclosure with some sound mat and I put some poly-fill in as well for good measure.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

I have yet to hear this new iteration... didn't get a chance at the last meet-up.


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## SheepishLordofChaos (Aug 14, 2020)

OOooofff....this is exactly what I'm looking to do in my doors. What brand is the ML8? Hertz? I'm going to try out some SB Acoustics 8 inch woofers in the doors to add that punch I need and keep up with my subwoofer choice in a big car.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Perfect!!


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

jimmydee said:


> I have yet to hear this new iteration... didn't get a chance at the last meet-up.


Lol, I did not get a chance to hear yours either. On the next one for sure!

I have the tune more optimized now and as the driver breaks in I have adjusted a bit more. The system is working great now just in time for winter


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

SheepishLordofChaos said:


> OOooofff....this is exactly what I'm looking to do in my doors. What brand is the ML8? Hertz? I'm going to try out some SB Acoustics 8 inch woofers in the doors to add that punch I need and keep up with my subwoofer choice in a big car.


Ya I bit the bullet and went for it. I am so glad I did. The front Stage play's strongly from 40Hz-20KHz now. I have the Sub and mid-bass crossed at 40Hz . The sound stage is totally solid left to right, lots of depth and the up front bass is just wonderful. The sealed enclosure fixed all my door issues and i could take EQ adjustment out of the mid-range and upper mid-range that was caused by door resonance and needing to dampen it. I had my doors dampened and black-holed foamed to an inch of there life to.

The coloration caused by the door vibrations , resonance and rear wave leakage was very telling post install of the sealed enclosure. If you can manage it i would highly recommend it. I could accommodate the internal sealed volume so it worked for me.

The MB is and Audiotec Fisher - Brax - ML8-Mid. Not cheap by any means but ...... it sure delivers the SQ, impact, freq. extension, loads of details and dynamics all in one package that I am after and I am super picky and a recovering audiophile LOL!


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## SheepishLordofChaos (Aug 14, 2020)

AudioGal said:


> Ya I bit the bullet and went for it. I am so glad I did. The front Stage play's strongly from 40Hz-20KHz now. I have the Sub and mid-bass crossed at 40Hz . The sound stage is totally solid left to right, lots of depth and the up front bass is just wonderful. The sealed enclosure fixed all my door issues and i could take EQ adjustment out of the mid-range and upper mid-range that was caused by door resonance and needing to dampen it. I had my doors dampened and black-holed foamed to an inch of there life to.
> 
> The coloration caused by the door vibrations , resonance and rear wave leakage was very telling post install of the sealed enclosure. If you can manage it i would highly recommend it. I could accommodate the internal sealed volume so it worked for me.
> 
> The MB is and Audiotec Fisher - Brax - ML8-Mid. Not cheap by any means but ...... it sure delivers the SQ, impact, freq. extension, loads of details and dynamics all in one package that I am after and I am super picky and a recovering audiophile LOL!


Thanks for the info....it sounds doable on my end...I'm willing to take the risk to get something close to those results. You did an excellent job.


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

Thanks for this amazing build log. I really enjoyed seeing the process as well as the end result. Excellent craftsmanship and attention to detail.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

cman said:


> Thanks for this amazing build log. I really enjoyed seeing the process as well as the end result. Excellent craftsmanship and attention to detail.


Thank you @cman and welcome to the site! 

I had a lot of fun doing this project.


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## toneloc2 (Nov 29, 2015)

Seeing and hearing this in person I can tell you this looks and sounds amazing. No need for the sub.


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## toneloc2 (Nov 29, 2015)

Should of mentioned this. This car will take first place in any comp if there were any around. It’s to bad she didn’t share all of the journey to get there.


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## Dan750iL (Jan 16, 2016)

This is badass. I love your solution for a door enclosure. Sadly though, you've now given me more analysis paralysis.  I may go this route in my build.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

toneloc2 said:


> Should of mentioned this. This car will take first place in any comp if there were any around. It’s to bad she didn’t share all of the journey to get there.


Thanks Toneloc2 you are to far to kind .... I am over the moon about the final results though personally. I did share a bit a while ago but not in a continuous single thread.

I cannot wait to hear your revised system with the increased MB enclosure volumes!!


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Dan750iL said:


> This is badass. I love your solution for a door enclosure. Sadly though, you've now given me more analysis paralysis.  I may go this route in my build.



Mission complete.. sharing and planting seeds, lol!!!

i get the analysis paralysis part for sure. 4-6 weeks to plan and change my mind a thousand times while the drivers sat on the shelf and 2 weeks to rolll up the sleeves and get' 'r' done!

I cannot tell you how many how to use a router videos I watched, lol


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## Dan750iL (Jan 16, 2016)

Only 4 - 6 weeks? Amateur! I've been overthinking, rethinking and changing mine for over 2 years now. It's taken me that long to get fed up with myself and just start doing it.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Dan750iL said:


> Only 4 - 6 weeks? Amateur! I've been overthinking, rethinking and changing mine for over 2 years now. It's taken me that long to get fed up with myself and just start doing it.


 

Haha , you win !!!! 

For me 4-6 weeks is a long time I could not go that long i would go nuts! or maybe it is to late for that anyhow!!


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

Great work, they blend really nicely into the doors, which is no small feat given what has actually been mounted to the doors in what is a fairly small vehicle!



Dan750iL said:


> I've been overthinking, rethinking and changing mine for over 2 years now. It's taken me that long to get fed up with myself and just start doing it.


So, what you are saying is that you will not have a completed set up for Jason's meet in November?


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## Dan750iL (Jan 16, 2016)

naiku said:


> So, what you are saying is that you will not have a completed set up for Jason's meet in November?


I'm doing my best right now to make sure that's not the case. I have actually started working on it.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Value of the complete system vs value of a Yaris?


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

Value of listening to music on that system daily?.... priceless 

Awesome work. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

DaveG said:


> Value of the complete system vs value of a Yaris?


Priceless !!! would be the appropriate answer to your question 

I place little value or ego in my car and i place tremendous value in music and the enjoyment of the reproduction of music done well, so I spent accordingly


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Mauian said:


> Value of listening to music on that system daily?.... priceless
> 
> Awesome work.
> 
> ...


Haha beat me to it!!!!


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## jimmyjames16 (Dec 12, 2006)

This looks incredible... I feel like a noob now.. It must sound Amazing..


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Simply love the creativity, integrity and commitment of your install work!!!


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## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

this is awesome, nice job!


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Thanks guy’s , much appreciated 😎


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

AudioGal said:


> Next I needed a design. Something that would fit and be something I could build.
> 
> I explored mounting it to the door IB but I ruled that out after some investigation and Vulcan logic. I new in the back of my mind I was wanting a sealed enclosure on my doors and that is what I was going to do.
> 
> ...


I like your determination. Make it work 

Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Dammit. Now I'm going to need to step up my game. You just gave me a wild idea...

Awesome job. Not only because its your first time trying this. But, you pulled this off in expert fashion.

Ge0


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Ge0 said:


> I like your determination. Make it work
> 
> Ge0



Lol ya, also known as stubbornness. Thanks for the comments and wild ideas are awesome!


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

Nice work on those door pods!, I like how you arranged them in vertical manner with mids and tweeters.
Im also a big fan of enclosured midbass drivers, be it sealed or ported.

Any pics of the rest of the system install?


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

like where this is going. I bet the midbass will sound incredible.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

LBaudio said:


> Nice work on those door pods!, I like how you arranged them in vertical manner with mids and tweeters.
> Im also a big fan of enclosured midbass drivers, be it sealed or ported.
> 
> Any pics of the rest of the system install?


Thank you and sure I can insert some more pic's in a bit. 

Having the front stage in vertical alignment really supports a balanced frequency response and promotes a wonderful stable sound stage with excellent width, height and depth. The MB in a proper enclosure really made a positive difference to the performance of the driver at those frequencies but it is not a fair comparison as I upgraded the driver and increased the diameter to 8" which also contributed to the overall improvement significantly. The lack of door resonance and vibrations was the a huge overall benefit regardless though.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

OK, here is the current front stage.

Brax GL1
Brax GL3
Brax ML8

Pioneer deck - do not use much at all - maps, phone calls and to allow the kiddo's to plug in when they want to- various iPhones via carplay.
Helix - Director used for source switching and volume control
Fiio M11 Pro - coax out to the DSP Ultra (used 95% of the time)


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Rear-fill is a BLAM wide-band ( Live FR80) operating 300Hz - 3Khz using the Ultra is a unique way to create rear-fill. Most likely move the GL3 back here and replace the front with a ML3 maybe if i feel it is worth it. Not sure. The BLAM is working great for now.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Sub is a helix KE12 enclosure which has been sealed approx 1 cuft which is housing an AudioFrog GB12 D2 wired to 1 ohm. Operating range is 40hz down at this point. It does ok as this is a SQ build and not a bass head build. IB would be cool to try but not in this car at this time 

My next project is to build a nicer box where the name is not upside down, lol. I was lazy and repurposed the box plus I did not have the tools at the time. Now I do so......

I also built an acoustically transparent grill shelf to go over the sub and cover it from the back.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

and last but not least the amp rack - made out of Baltic birch ply.

Two helix C-Fours running as mono-block pairs. the one on the left is for the left side and the one on the right is for the right side of the front stage. Channel 1 is tweeters, Channel 2 is mids and Bridged 3&4 for the mid-bass.

A C-One for the sub loaded to 1 ohm.

A Relax RA754D Blam for the rear fill mostly because its form factor allowed it to fit on the board.

A Helix Ultra for the DSP

A 2nd battery hidden under the amp rack wired in parallel to the front Optima yellow top .

And a Singer 220 Amp alternator and of course 1/0 wired for all DC duties through out.


that is about it I think.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

My next project is to rebuild the sub box and refinish and cover the front mid/tweet pods but other than that I am super happy with the system.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Nice install, did you try firing the sub down so the words were correct?


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

miniSQ said:


> Nice install, did you try firing the sub down so the words were correct?


Well I did for about 0.00000001 of a Stardate


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## JackedBurton (Aug 2, 2020)




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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Looks great. Love the door enclosure.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Thanks guy's I had a lot of fun with this one! 

I am even thinking about giving a set of home speakers a try now


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

I am absolutely on board with door enclosures. I have deadened doors to death and its not ideal. Turn off all your speakers and listen to just the mid-bass. You can clearly hear the coloration and distortion. Actually, don't do this, as you'll never be able to un-hear it. Hey, maybe I'm doing something wrong but lbs of dynamat,on the inner and outer skin, sealed door holes, MLV, acoustic tukes and there will still be vibration. I mean I know there have been millions of successful installs, comp winining installs, that use door woofers but they sound like sheet to me in my cars. I started doing this because especially in my truck with those giant doors it was impossible to tame the sheet metal.

I will start a new thread as I don't want to hijack Audiogal. We absolutetly need to discuss this and show examples !

I will never build another (serious) system with woofers in open doors. Yeah, its a huge step up in fabrication especially making them look nice, but what are you gonna do ? Listen to coloration in your mid -bass ? 

Audiogal those came out great, your system looks excellent and am sure it sounds the same. Are your mids sealed or open ? If sealed how much airspace do you think they have ?


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

preston said:


> I am absolutely on board with door enclosures. I have deadened doors to death and its not ideal. Turn off all your speakers and listen to just the mid-bass. You can clearly hear the coloration and distortion. Actually, don't do this, as you'll never be able to un-hear it. Hey, maybe I'm doing something wrong but lbs of dynamat,on the inner and outer skin, sealed door holes, MLV, acoustic tukes and there will still be vibration. I mean I know there have been millions of successful installs, comp winining installs, that use door woofers but they sound like sheet to me in my cars. I started doing this because especially in my truck with those giant doors it was impossible to tame the sheet metal.
> 
> I will start a new thread as I don't want to hijack Audiogal. We absolutetly need to discuss this and show examples !
> 
> ...


Ahh a convert just like me, and thank you!!

I am all in on a separate thread for door enclosure installs and sharing.

The mid/tweet pods are sealed and dampened and also made of wood only. they are about 750 ml each give or take. Totally open sounding just like the mid-bass now. A very uncolored system.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

preston said:


> Actually, don't do this, as you'll never be able to un-hear it.


I forgot to add that this is so..so true. Once you get used to an uncolored sound it is super easy to hear coloration's in other systems and it is not so easy to un-hear it. I agree with this 100%!!


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## Envyrao (Mar 19, 2020)

Hey Audiogal!

Awesome setup!!! Really Loved it!!!

Almost similar to mine for the amps and DSP.

Thats my Venue. I'm using coaxial out just like you. With Hiby R6 Pro but still struggling to play Hires files above 48khz. 

I have Morel Titanium 603 in the front Active and Morel Virtus 602 Rear Filler and Brax ML10 with Tchernov Classic RCAs


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

That is awesome @Envyrao our systems are soooo close ... awesome!!!

Very nice install 😊

It is nice to see another setup with Helix amps. The C series amps are excellent and under rated/utilized in the North American market.


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## Audio 456 (Jun 2, 2014)

AudioGal said:


> Next I needed a design. Something that would fit and be something I could build.
> 
> I explored mounting it to the door IB but I ruled that out after some investigation and Vulcan logic. I new in the back of my mind I was wanting a sealed enclosure on my doors and that is what I was going to do.
> 
> ...



So are these speakers Brax's?


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Audio 456 said:


> So are these speakers Brax's?



Yes Brax ML-8 mids


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

I splurged today and upgraded to the ML1 from the GL1. Initial impressions are super positive. More feedback to come 😀


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

So excited to hear this upgrade...


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

@AudioGal can you adopt me? Just keeps getting better and better! Jelly! Congrats!;-)


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Audiogal i'd marry you just for the car stereo 🤣 I'm sure you have lots of other good qualities too though 😄


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

AudioGal said:


> I splurged today and upgraded to the ML1 from the GL1. Initial impressions are super positive. More feedback to come 😀


NICE! 

I'm sure it's gotta hurt even more considering Canadian dollars. But I do the same "for the love of music". 

Would be nice to do a blind A/B/X test so that there's no confirmation bias, but it's not an easy task.

Enjoy.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

This is quickly turning into a dating site...


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

jimmydee said:


> This is quickly turning into a dating site...


Lol, might be a little early for that.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

DaveG said:


> @AudioGal can you adopt me? Just keeps getting better and better! Jelly! Congrats!;-)


Haha I could but you would
have to ride in a Yaris !


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

bbfoto said:


> NICE!
> 
> I'm sure it's gotta hurt even more considering Canadian dollars. But I do the same "for the love of music".
> 
> ...


There is quite a difference between the two tweeters, far more than I expected there would be. By what I was told about the ML1 sound character I was not expecting to like it, so it had to overcome my negative bias about it. It did indeed do just that and it blended beautifully while stepping things up in a way musically that I really enjoyed which I was not expecting . I listened to full songs end to end without realizing it and was immersed in what the artists was doing. That is a winner for me.

There was a significant difference on the RTA and how I could tune and setup the car as well. I could take a bunch of EQ out and run the ML1 over a much broader freq range with far less ripple in the pass band and through the cross over region. The soundstage went from great to holographic.

Music like taste has more sensory input than a double blind test allows for and others can take that path if they wish to if that is what they like to do or drive merit from.

For me music is an emotional story telling experience and equipment that allows that to happen with as little coloration as possible is what I am interested in finding and listening to 😀


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

AudioGal said:


> Haha I could but you would
> have to ride in a Yaris !


Ummm yea there is that... had slipped my mind. Could be a deal breaker! I’ll have to sleep on it. I’ll let you know. ;-)


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

jimmydee said:


> This is quickly turning into a dating site...


Hilarious  

DIYMA is the new tinder. 

Although................

Given it's mostly blokes it could be the new grindr


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## mkars1 (Nov 13, 2009)

Funny. But seriously Audiogal's discussion here is one of the better discussions I have read lately with everyone's input. Need more like this. Keep it up.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

mkars1 said:


> Funny. But seriously Audiogal's discussion her is one of the better discussions I have read lately with everyone's input. Need more like this. Keep it up.


I agree entirely. Audiogal is wise, articulate and competent and an inspiration. 

But a bit of humour is nice.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

DaveG said:


> Ummm yea there is that... had slipped my mind. Could be a deal breaker! I’ll have to sleep on it. I’ll let you know. ;-)


Okay, on a serious note... I can’t get past the Yaris! Even googled to see if there was just anyway but nope can’t do it! Sorry!;^)


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

DaveG said:


> Okay, on a serious note... I can’t get past the Yaris! Even googled to see if there was just anyway but nope can’t do it! Sorry!;^)
> View attachment 278140


You're more of a starlet kinda guy Dave? 🤣


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Doors are pony for midbass, phase issues central, however in a small car like yours it may well be very similar to my friends Mitsubishi colt that’s won various European titles and I have the price page of dropping smaart on it... what I found was most amazing, pretty much no phase issues from 380 down to 20 with just a small glitch on the bottom end 😮 it competes subless, I put the lack of phase issues down to no resonances and also the narrow width of the car, very good indeed...
Basically straight lines are good, and where left and right drift... under 60 degrees is good... as soon as I measured it I could see why little napoleon is a very special car indeed, it runs a set of cheapish 120 quid each 8”, and a set of 250 quid widebands (gz uranium’s) as it’s entire front stage for Emma sq, they are crossed at 300hz avoiding the 400hz phase blip you can see to the right of the pic


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

DaveG said:


> Okay, on a serious note... I can’t get past the Yaris! Even googled to see if there was just anyway but nope can’t do it! Sorry!;^)
> View attachment 278140


Lol, well one less mouth to feed so i can buy more stuff!!


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

dumdum said:


> Doors are pony for midbass, phase issues central, however in a small car like yours it may well be very similar to my friends Mitsubishi colt that’s won various European titles and I have the price page of dropping smaart on it... what I found was most amazing, pretty much no phase issues from 380 down to 20 with just a small glitch on the bottom end 😮 it competes subless, I put the lack of phase issues down to no resonances and also the narrow width of the car, very good indeed...
> Basically straight lines are good, and where left and right drift... under 60 degrees is good... as soon as I measured it I could see why little napoleon is a very special car indeed, it runs a set of cheapish 120 quid each 8”, and a set of 250 quid widebands (gz uranium’s) as it’s entire front stage for Emma sq, they are crossed at 300hz avoiding the 400hz phase blip you can see to the right of the pic
> View attachment 278143



That is very interesting dumdum ( I hate calling people that !) 

Thanks fo sharing. I could totally run subless as well. The 8’s are playing down to 40Hz solid and that is were i have them crossed at to my sub.

Everybody laughs at my car till they sit in it and then they stop laughing 😎

The soundstage is super wide, well passed the mirrors, tons of depth and is super stable (rotate and move my head around) all signs of good phase performance.


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## Petererc (Dec 28, 2016)

Nice work, I like that it’s in a Yaris , total tool bag ego buster. Only thing I hate about this thread is the damn recip saw. Makes me want to take it to the door card and deal with the aftermath. Good job


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Petererc said:


> Nice work, I like that it’s in a Yaris , total tool bag ego buster. Only thing I hate about this thread is the damn recip saw. Makes me want to take it to the door card and deal with the aftermath. Good job


Thank you, not everybody needs a $100K car to enjoy good audio and small cars have some advantages for SQ .... as Dumdum talked about !


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## Envyrao (Mar 19, 2020)

AudioGal said:


> I splurged today and upgraded to the ML1 from the GL1. Initial impressions are super positive. More feedback to come 😀


@AudioGal Congratulations on your new ML1 upgrade...Would love to see some audiovisual of them in action.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Thank you @Envyrao, I will think about that. I do not have any decent recording equipment/mic and I am not sure the site allows videos to be attached directly.

BTW, I have a ticket into Audiotec Fisher with regards to Hi-Rez play back through the Ultra and inconsistency's. For example the Ultra does not seem to accept above 96Khz files through the Coax input even though it should and I mentioned your issue as well. It is taking them a while to get back to me I think due in part to a summer break in Germany. I will followup once I hear back. Maybe there is something with the 4.70a DSP release that is not quite right. Stay tuned


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

AudioGal said:


> Thank you, not everybody needs a $100K car to enjoy good audio and small cars have some advantages for SQ .... as Dumdum talked about !


I partially owned one for a couple of years.

It is not a sports car, but the Aussie expression for economy is, "runs on the smell of an oily rag".

It reminded me of a Spanish Seat rental we used in Espania once, in terms of the throttle response... which common with EU5 or maybe EU6 emissions engines.


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## Envyrao (Mar 19, 2020)

AudioGal said:


> Thank you @Envyrao, I will think about that. I do not have any decent recording equipment/mic and I am not sure the site allows videos to be attached directly.
> 
> BTW, I have a ticket into Audiotec Fisher with regards to Hi-Rez play back through the Ultra and inconsistency's. For example the Ultra does not seem to accept above 96Khz files through the Coax input even though it should and I mentioned your issue as well. It is taking them a while to get back to me I think due in part to a summer break in Germany. I will followup once I hear back. Maybe there is something with the 4.70a DSP release that is not quite right. Stay tuned


The Audiotec Fischer says that some specific coaxial cables only accept hires files upto192k. However, they haven't shared any specific ones.
I have ordered custom made Atlas Hyper DD 75 ohms coaxial cables with 3.5mm mini jack on one end and RCA on the other end as I don't have to use any OTG connection to connect the DAP. Let's see how it works.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Envyrao said:


> The Audiotec Fischer says that some specific coaxial cables only accept hires files upto192k. However, they haven't shared any specific ones.
> I have ordered custom made Atlas Hyper DD 75 ohms coaxial cables with 3.5mm mini jack on one end and RCA on the other end as I don't have to use any OTG connection to connect the DAP. Let's see how it works.


Thanks for sharing that but..... really!!!! 

Lol, it is not a true coaxial cable then as a coaxial cable has bandwidth well into the high Mhz range. and even the low GHz range. A proper Coxial cable should be more than fine. 75ohm coax cable has been passing TV signals for decades .

That being said I hooked up my Fiio to my home DAC and it played up to 176.4khz no problem. I took the exact same cable to my Ultra and it would only play up to 96Khz properly. Above that it has issues. My cable is a high end home cable. My car cable had the same outcomes.

I forwarded my setup and test results to AF and I am still waiting on an answer. So we will see 😉


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

AudioGal said:


> Thanks for sharing that but..... really!!!!
> 
> Lol, it is not a true coaxial cable then as a coaxial cable has bandwidth well into the high Mhz range. and even the low GHz range. A proper Coxial cable should be more than fine. 75ohm coax cable has been passing TV signals for decades .
> 
> ...


What do ÿou do when not working on the topics of the thread?


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Holmz said:


> What do ÿou do when not working on the topics of the thread?


Oh when I am not fixing the audio system on the Enterprise various things !!!

I run the innovation management process at our company and handle all the IP ( Patents and Trademarks) from start to finish internationally.

I have done product and project management and designed software for oil and gas service equipment, frac and coil in a previous lifetime and in another previous lifetime I was an RF test engineer for telecom, military defence and the government among a few other odds and end jobs. A techie i guess 🤓


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Yeah... it is refreshing to read your posts.


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## Envyrao (Mar 19, 2020)

AudioGal said:


> Thanks for sharing that but..... really!!!!
> 
> Lol, it is not a true coaxial cable then as a coaxial cable has bandwidth well into the high Mhz range. and even the low GHz range. A proper Coxial cable should be more than fine. 75ohm coax cable has been passing TV signals for decades .
> 
> ...


Pls see the email response


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Envyrao said:


> Pls see the email response


Thanks @Enyrao, all that says is the Helix maybe has some sort of issues with certain cables mostly likely non-coax cables which would be normal. A proper coax cable that is designed to the proper geometric specification (75 ohm) should work fine for what we are doing. Now if someone is using a normal RCA cable or some sort of RCA cable twisted or shielded that is not Coaxial designed then problems could definitely arise as the bandwidth is fine for audio but not for RF ( Khz) frequencies. Your 48 Khz limit issue seems to be cable or something else.

I can take a perfectly working coaxial cable running into a 5 year old DAC (old chip set) from my Fiio and it works fine through the coaxial connection. I take the same cable (which is a proper digital coax cable, as much as any can be with RCA ends  and plug it into the Ultra and no-go at greater than 96 KHz.

Like I said I am waiting patiently to hear their response to my issue specifically a I know the equipment and scenario as a baseline works in other systems just fine. If a cable creates reflections or what not meaning an impedance miss-match then it should show up in the baseline equipment. This assumes all equipment is designed and tested to a standard interface specification. If that is not the case than idiosyncrasies happen which is not good. We will see what transpires.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Those CAN bus systems require a terminator at the end... so your reflection idea idea makes sense.
Mayb they have a proprietary cable that they spruik?


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Holmz said:


> Those CAN bus systems require a terminator at the end... so your reflection idea idea makes sense.
> Mayb they have a proprietary cable that they spruik?



No CAN bus just straight up SPDIF via RCA coax so it is a tried and tested interface standard for well over a decade.

The super high bandwidth DSD streams sometime require a more robust interface such as true AES/BEU balance, I!2S or top notch fiber. For basic 24/192 standard coax is plenty but maybe not top notch spec wise.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Well to keep my build current I have made another change...... the addiction never stops LOL!!!

I have a matched set now for a front stage.

Ml1, ML3 and Ml8 singing beautiful tunes together 😎


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

And I made some grills for my pods so I can do the stealth thing when I want. The speaker socks (grills) blend in quite well over and I am happy with them. 😊


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

AudioGal said:


> And I made some grills for my pods so I can do the stealth thing when I want. The speaker socks (grills) blend in quite well over and I am happy with them. 😊


You're an artist audiogal. 😄


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Are you gonna go for the ML3’s... since you have the ML1’s now?

Good work btw...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Elektra said:


> Are you gonna go for the ML3’s... since you have the ML1’s now?
> 
> Good work btw...
> 
> ...


Yup and i did, hense the earlier post 😊

As a full set the ML series is amazing and works really well in my install and car. I am super happy with the to to bottom performance of the front stage.

Now what to do to bring 15-40hz in-line with the rest of the system....lol!


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## SheepishLordofChaos (Aug 14, 2020)

I apologize if you touched on this earlier...I followed this pretty closely but took a step away until I realized I need to do what you did in my car (or close) did this affect your leg room?


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Actually it did not amazingly enough!! All
of the same leg room. For a smaller car the Yaris had big door pockets. Those where sacrificed to the audio gods in the sky!!


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## SheepishLordofChaos (Aug 14, 2020)

Lucky you....I'm hoping I have the same result but my woofer choice was bonkers. I'm looking at an uphill battle


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## SheepishLordofChaos (Aug 14, 2020)

AudioGal said:


> Actually it did not amazingly enough!! All
> of the same leg room. For a smaller car the Yaris had big door pockets. Those where sacrificed to the audio gods in the sky!!


Also, thank you for responding


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

SheepishLordofChaos said:


> Lucky you....I'm hoping I have the same result but my woofer choice was bonkers. I'm looking at an uphill battle


That’s to bad, hopefully you can make it work in your vehicle, 🤞


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## Miyagi (Dec 3, 2020)

AudioGal said:


> Thank you @Envyrao, I will think about that. I do not have any decent recording equipment/mic and I am not sure the site allows videos to be attached directly.
> 
> BTW, I have a ticket into Audiotec Fisher with regards to Hi-Rez play back through the Ultra and inconsistency's. For example the Ultra does not seem to accept above 96Khz files through the Coax input even though it should and I mentioned your issue as well. It is taking them a while to get back to me I think due in part to a summer break in Germany. I will followup once I hear back. Maybe there is something with the 4.70a DSP release that is not quite right. Stay tuned


Did you ever hear back regarding high Rez?


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## Envyrao (Mar 19, 2020)

I have a feeling that Audiotec Fischer doesn't want hires files greater than 96k to play on coaxial input as it may impact their HEC USB sales. I have purchased a HEC USB card for my Ultra and I have connected my DAP Astell & Kern Sp1000m via IFI Audio OTG and the output is mind-blowing. There is a day and night difference in Coaxial and HEC USB and the AK DAP is made a huge difference.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Envyrao said:


> I have a feeling that Audiotec Fischer doesn't want hires files greater than 96k to play on coaxial input as it may impact their HEC USB sales. I have purchased a HEC USB card for my Ultra and I have connected my DAP Astell & Kern Sp1000m via IFI Audio OTG and the output is mind-blowing. There is a day and night difference in Coaxial and HEC USB and the AK DAP is made a huge difference.


You have found the opposite of pretty much everyone in the U.K., the concensus is the usb hec doesn’t sound a patch on a coax or even better an optical input...

and I have put 192khz into my helix dsp pro 2 successfully


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## mitesh.soni (Aug 24, 2013)

I've purchased the Topping D10s recently and running it via Coaxial to my Helix DSP Pro MK2 and I haven't still fully compared enough how the Topping D10s sounds vs the HEC-USB. I can defiantly hear more details, the HEC-USB sounds very flat in comparison. After a re-tune I should have more of an idea.


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## Envyrao (Mar 19, 2020)

dumdum said:


> You have found the opposite of pretty much everyone in the U.K., the concensus is the usb hec doesn’t sound a patch on a coax or even better an optical input...
> 
> and I have put 192khz into my helix dsp pro 2 successfully


What coaxial cables are you using to transmit 192khz files to your DSP Pro2.
With Ultra 96khz is the maximum that can be transmitted. I have tried using Tchernov and Atlas cables, but failed to transfer higher resolution files.

The source for me is Fiio X7 mark2 on Coaxial and AKSP1KM on HEC USB. And I'm playing Tidal Masters. The difference observed by me maybe also because of the good quality DAP on HEC USB.

Let me see the difference using same DAP on Coaxial and HEC USB. Will check and comeback with the results


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## mitesh.soni (Aug 24, 2013)

Envyrao said:


> What coaxial cables are you using to transmit 192khz files to your DSP Pro2.
> With Ultra 96khz is the maximum that can be transmitted. I have tried using Tchernov and Atlas cables, but failed to transfer higher resolution files.
> 
> The source for me is Fiio X7 mark2 on Coaxial and AKSP1KM on HEC USB. And I'm playing Tidal Masters. The difference observed by me maybe also because of the good quality DAP on HEC USB.
> ...


I've heard Peter's setup (PSSOUND) 3 years ago with the Source as Fiio X7 Mark II running Coaxial to a Helix DSP Pro 1 and it's the best sounding system I've heard to date. He was using Tidal too but masters I don't believe was out at the point.

The Helix DSP Pro MK2 can accept up to 192khz with the Coaxial input however the sample rate on the DSP is 96khz

Yes that would be good comparison to see what the AKSP1KM sounds like using Coaxial vs HEC-USB on your setup.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

mitesh.soni said:


> I've heard Peter's setup (PSSOUND) 3 years ago with the Source as Fiio X7 Mark II running Coaxial to a Helix DSP Pro 1 and it's the best sounding system I've heard to date. He was using Tidal too but masters I don't believe was out at the point.
> 
> The Helix DSP Pro MK2 can accept up to 192khz with the Coaxial input however the sample rate on the DSP is 96khz
> 
> Yes that would be good comparison to see what the AKSP1KM sounds like using Coaxial vs HEC-USB on your setup.


I hate to add additional clutter to Audiogal’s excellent thread, but I have a question about the above. 

It has always been my understanding that when utilizing digital output from a device (DAP, CD player, etc.), the internal DAC of the device is bypassed, and the DAC of the DSP is used. 

If one wants to utilize the DAC within the DAP, Analog out is the way to achieve that. I’m using an A&K SR15 currently with analog output to my DSP so that I may use the DACs within the DAP that I feel is a bit better than what is in the DSP. 

Some on this forum are using a home audio DAC that they are plugging their source into (like an iPad or tablet) feeding the DAC via USB, then analog to the DSP to complete the processing. Some argue against another conversion, but not sure if that is measurable - and probably shouldn’t be argued in Audiogal’s thread. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Envyrao said:


> I have a feeling that Audiotec Fischer doesn't want hires files greater than 96k to play on coaxial input as it may impact their HEC USB sales. I have purchased a HEC USB card for my Ultra and I have connected my DAP Astell & Kern Sp1000m via IFI Audio OTG and the output is mind-blowing. There is a day and night difference in Coaxial and HEC USB and the AK DAP is made a huge difference.


You have the same setup as me, Ultra, USBHEC and A&K SP1000M. I haven't got an OTG module yet. Can you please give me the OTG model number or a link please? I'm having terrible trouble finding one.

I'm using an ifI nano iONE to convert the A&K via Bluetooth using an ifI nano iONE to convert USB to SPDIF and send it to the Ultra coaxial input. Ive got a Topping 10 to test as well. It's a massive improvement on using the same CD in my top end kenwood head unit. I'm excited that it could get even better.

God I love my AK SP1000M. It even drives my hi impedance low efficiency planar headphones. And streams to my DAC/preamp headamp. It does everything well.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> You have found the opposite of pretty much everyone in the U.K., the concensus is the usb hec doesn’t sound a patch on a coax or even better an optical input...
> 
> and I have put 192khz into my helix dsp pro 2 successfully


dum dum, I trust your findings. But has anyone in your circle tried an Astell and Kern AK SP1000M DAP in general, and into the USB HEC in an ultra or other Helix DSP?

It is a long story but the SP1000M has the same performance as their AK SP1000 which was AU$5K, but the SP1000M was only AU$3500 here. And I got one for half price. Basically A&K got tots of feedback that people liked the flagship SP1000, but wanted a smaller version. So A&K developed the SP1000M with a goal of no SQ compromise and achieved that. And then they released it $1500 cheaper. The trade off from memory compared to the SP1000 was only 1 USB chip slot down from 2, no coaxial digital output and slightly shorter battery life. 

My point is that you could be completely right but so could @Envyrao due to componentry differences, and in particular, the AK SP1000M being so unbelievably good.

Cheers
Sam


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

bertholomey said:


> I hate to add additional clutter to Audiogal’s excellent thread, but I have a question about the above.
> 
> It has always been my understanding that when utilizing digital output from a device (DAP, CD player, etc.), the internal DAC of the device is bypassed, and the DAC of the DSP is used.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure outputting the analogue into a helix or DSPmk2 even from something as sublime as an AK SP1000M is a bad idea. It just adds an extral level of DA then AD conversion. 

As for wrecking @AudioGal's thread she is interested in this stuff and has contributed extensively to another thread on her findings.


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

There is a guy named Matthew Scheiffer or something like that who does high end installs on YouTube. Use the word stealth and car audio you'll find him. Anyway I've watched a few of his videos and he always provides the client with the ability to retain the OEM H/U (these are high end cars) as well as hi-fi bluetooth. And he insists the highest end playback option is a top level DAP analog into the DSP. Says they have auditioned it many times. That despite the extra conversion you are gaining something from the excellence ot the DACs in the player. At first I thought he was just saying that because they needed to preserve the digital in for the OEM input (MOST bus or whatever) but after seeing a few of his videos I gather he really believes that. 

Me ? I don't think my ears are that golden. My equpiment until recently didn't support hi-res anyway. But I am about to go from a P99 playing analog into my DSP to a Joying playing digital via co-ax, I'll be interested if I can tell - and who knows I'm not counting the analog out.


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## Envyrao (Mar 19, 2020)

Sam Spade said:


> You have the same setup as me, Ultra, USBHEC and A&K SP1000M. I haven't got an OTG module yet. Can you please give me the OTG model number or a link please? I'm having terrible trouble finding one.


@Sam Spade Please find the link for OTG








iFi Audio - Audiophile OTG Cable


iFi Audio Audiophile OTG Cable: Shop for Headphone Accessories like earphone cases, headphone stands, cables online at the best prices in India.




www.headphonezone.in


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Thanks Envyrao, you are a champion


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Yep - that is a good one - when I had the FiiO X5iii and Helix USB HEC - that is what I used.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

I will attempt to hook up my dsp ultra and feed it from a pc/topping this week if I remember, that way I can set it’s output bitrate 👍🏼 How’s that for service (also so I can double check what I’m telling you is correct also...) I know previously I had a topping in the car and couldn’t get anything from the topping, when I pulled it out it was defaulting to the maximum bitrate the topping would resolve... 384 doesn’t work into a coax


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

All, i just wanted to pass along that the Yaris is now retired from SQ duty and is passed on to my daughter as her first car with some of my old starter car audio in it! 

It was a great test bed and exceeded my expectations with the goal of obtaining really good 2 channel home audio in a car. I am going to take all my learnings and gear with some changes into my next build in my new to me car a 2016 Toyota Venza Limited. So the journey continues


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

We hope to see a link here for the next build in the coming months


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

bertholomey said:


> We hope to see a link here for the next build in the coming months


Ya I will see if I like the outcome.. true to form for me I am going to take/try a road less traveled with this one in some areas to be finalized. A few things in the old system could stand a bit of improvement so I am going to retain (hopefully) everything i liked and address the few areas that will take things to the next level .

The new car I feel has great SQ bones and way more room so hopefully it works out!


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Enterprise II 😄


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Awesome. The Venza is a nice car for audio and opens up some new possibilities for you.
IN checking out your door build, a question came to mind... How did you attach the enclosures to the inner door? Specifically, once you attached/glued the top baffle, how were you able to get bolts through the rear of the enclosure and into the door on the *far end* of the enclosure with only the speaker cutout hole to access it? Or did I miss a step somewhere? Perhaps you mounted to the door, then glued the top baffle on? But then how would you remove it?

Anyway, looking forward to the new build log. Speaking of- get after it!


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## Mad Scientist (Feb 12, 2017)

captainobvious said:


> IN checking out your door build, a question came to mind... How did you attach the enclosures to the inner door? Specifically, once you attached/glued the top baffle, how were you able to get bolts through the rear of the enclosure and into the door on the *far end* of the enclosure with only the speaker cutout hole to access it? Or did I miss a step somewhere? Perhaps you mounted to the door, then glued the top baffle on? But then how would you remove it?


Based off the fabrication pics, there are three mounting holes which affix the enclosure to the door. Two of the three are under the driver, and the third is toward the middle of the enclosure, but it's only 4 or 5 inches from the driver cutout edge. Judging from the pics, there is enough depth (even with the top baffle installed) for someone to reach in with a combination wrench or ratchet and socket to reach the third mounting hole. There doesn't appear to be a mounting hole on the opposite end of where the driver is located, so the enclosure could be fully wrapped and still have full access to the mounting points.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Based off the fabrication pics, there are three mounting holes which affix the enclosure to the door. Two of the three are under the driver, and the third is toward the middle of the enclosure, but it's only 4 or 5 inches from the driver cutout edge. Judging from the pics, there is enough depth (even with the top baffle installed) for someone to reach in with a combination wrench or ratchet and socket to reach the third mounting hole. There doesn't appear to be a mounting hole on the opposite end of where the driver is located, so the enclosure could be fully wrapped and still have full access to the mounting points.



Hey guys, sorry i have not checked in much lately. Mad Scientist is correct. I have 3 mounting bolts attaching the enclosure to the metal door panel. I inserted nutserts in the door panel and i am able to access the hex bolts from the speaker opening to attach the enclosure to the door. The enclosure can be taken out complete from the door once the speaker is removed. I could shake the car yanking on the enclosure with no movement 

The enclosure worked very well and i will be thinking about something similar in the new car but it will look nicer, lol!!!


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

captainobvious said:


> Awesome. The Venza is a nice car for audio and opens up some new possibilities for you.
> IN checking out your door build, a question came to mind... How did you attach the enclosures to the inner door? Specifically, once you attached/glued the top baffle, how were you able to get bolts through the rear of the enclosure and into the door on the *far end* of the enclosure with only the speaker cutout hole to access it? Or did I miss a step somewhere? Perhaps you mounted to the door, then glued the top baffle on? But then how would you remove it?
> 
> Anyway, looking forward to the new build log. Speaking of- get after it!


thanks Captainobvious, I am looking forward to stepping things up a bit when I settle on exactly what I want to do. The Venza I think has good SQ bones. And I can carry forward what I really like about the Yaris build and improve on it. Stage width will be further improved with the wider car and I expect the resolution of the stage in width, depth and height to also be better. I am trying to figure out what I want to due with the subs as the 8's go to 40hz no problem with great transients, dynamics, definition and impact.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Here is a teaser . my garage is cold (no heater) so I am just playing at the moment. I setup a small test rig.

Computer power supply to supply 12v to
Helix DSP
BLAM 4 channel amp ( small class D) just to test with
tweet and mid only.
mock baffle and towel enclosures

i setup a tweet and mid drivers in my hopefully new locations with a mock baffle and a towel behind the drivers up on the dash. I did a few tests to play and see to get a feel with what i am dealing with and I captured a few RTA shots.

No EQ right and left side curves raw tweet and mid only with a towel enclosure 










Now Tweet and mid with some basic EQ playing, like 3-5 bands just to see how the system responds.










Once i had this I did a super quick T/A for the drivers and then I did 2-3 hours of listening for stage presentation, imaging and tweeter angling.

Summary:
Super stoked with the preliminary results from a measurement and listening perspective. This system is definitely going to be a step up from my previous system if I can complete it as I hope! The soundstage and imaging improved like I hoped it would in all areas and the potential for the tonal balance is right where i like it


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## toneloc2 (Nov 29, 2015)

nice Erica can't wait to hear this one.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

toneloc2 said:


> nice Erica can't wait to hear this one.


Thanks sir! me 2 LOL!


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

AudioGal said:


> Thanks sir! me 2 LOL!


I see you where asking about the Brax ML10 subs - did you get them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Elektra said:


> I see you where asking about the Brax ML10 subs - did you get them?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I did not, the ML8 is such a stout and dynamic driver that played easily down to 40hz. So using a 10” sub would not add much if anything. I used a GB12 D2 and it was not the right choice either. I needed a sub that played 20-40hz musically and with authority. So i never did solve that to my satisfaction in the Yaris but to be fair I stopped putting time and money into it as I was looking at different vehicles by then.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

AudioGal said:


> I did not, the ML8 is such a stout and dynamic driver that played easily down to 40hz. So using a 10” sub would not add much if anything. I used a GB12 D2 and it was not the right choice either. I needed a sub that played 20-40hz musically and with authority. So i never did solve that to my satisfaction in the Yaris but to be fair I stopped putting time and money into it as I was looking at different vehicles by then.


I think dual ML10’s may have worked


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Elektra said:


> I think dual ML10’s may have worked
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have heard the Ml10 since then and i do not think it would add what i was looking for and the ML8 does a vast majority of what the Ml10 does just a bit more. My thoughts are leaning to a 15” of some sort. Car audio has taken a back seat lately, other priorities for a bit. So i have not chased this down or done anything yet with the new car.

I would add one or two 15” drivers i think to compliment the Ml8 without creating overlap of sound duties.

Now if i had kept the Gl6 or Ml6 for that matter, the Ml10 would be a no brainer there as a good pairing.

The Ml8 needs no help at all above 40 hz.

Just my thoughts and experience. I am definitely going to try a 15 of some sort with the Ml8 in the front 3-way stage.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

AudioGal said:


> I have heard the Ml10 since then and i do not think it would add what i was looking for and the ML8 does a vast majority of what the Ml10 does just a bit more. My thoughts are leaning to a 15” of some sort. Car audio has taken a back seat lately, other priorities for a bit. So i have not chased this down or done anything yet with the new car.
> 
> I would add one or two 15” drivers i think to compliment the Ml8 without creating overlap of sound duties.
> 
> ...


Hard to find a driver that’s a low end junky that has finesse and detail higher up sometimes a bit a give and take situation

I did some tests in my car and really the sub has to work at 30hz anything below isn’t that important - so for me the 30-80hz range is important and a reasonable amount of output under 30hz 

So I think dual ML10’s will give the 30-80hz the right amount of output 

I did order a ML10 - so that should come next week. Unfortunately they only have 1 in stock but I can get the gist of what to expect with 1 and if it’s on the right track then I’ll get another - what’s nice about the ML10 is it only needs 30lts sealed so 60lts is easy enough space to find... 

Also I can test the MX2 vs the Zed audio Deuce amp on the sub..... 


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Elektra said:


> I think dual ML10’s may have worked
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dual tens are not big enough to do what most people expect of the low end, it’s very rare for a ten to do what a 15 can in terms of weight in the low end, 3 or four perhaps

For me a single twelve is sometimes ok, model dependant, but a 15 is the kiddy for me for an sq low end, Dayton RSS390HF are an awesome sub for a nice low end, albeit a bit delicate for someone like me who has a heavy ear at times 😂


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

dumdum said:


> Dual tens are not big enough to do what most people expect of the low end, it’s very rare for a ten to do what a 15 can in terms of weight in the low end, 3 or four perhaps
> 
> For me a single twelve is sometimes ok, model dependant, but a 15 is the kiddy for me for an sq low end, Dayton RSS390HF are an awesome sub for a nice low end, albeit a bit delicate for someone like me who has a heavy ear at times


That’s true - the bigger drivers can also fill the cabin better - I had a Soundstream Exact 10 back in the day that performed better than most 12’s did... 

Actually a fabulous driver - pity those are not made anymore - didn’t like the Exact 12. 

I am not a bass junky I just want bass to be bass...


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

Brax ML10 in sealed enclosure is for me on the dry side.... could have more low end.... with two of them it should be better.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

LBaudio said:


> Brax ML10 in sealed enclosure is for me on the dry side.... could have more low end.... with two of them it should be better.


A little bit more low end definitely helps fill out the stage somewhat also 👍🏼


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

LBaudio said:


> Brax ML10 in sealed enclosure is for me on the dry side.... could have more low end.... with two of them it should be better.


Well I have one coming next week - so I’ll try it out if I like it I’ll get another 


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Elektra said:


> Hard to find a driver that’s a low end junky that has finesse and detail higher up sometimes a bit a give and take situation
> 
> *I did some tests in my car and really the sub has to work at 30hz anything below isn’t that important - so for me the 30-80hz range is important and a reasonable amount of output under 30hz.*
> 
> ...


Well, 30Hz is where I have the LP for my subwoofers set. 

So what were your impressions of the ML10?


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

bbfoto said:


> Well, 30Hz is where I have the LP for my subwoofers set.
> 
> So what were your impressions of the ML10?


Well I don’t miss the JL13W7 I thought the ML10 wasn’t going to fill the cabin or play low enough but upon measuring both the JL and the Brax there is nothing in it they measure the same...

The ML10 surprised me - it has a really good low end the sub seems to handle power as well - I haven’t found it’s limits in terms of power as it just takes everything I give it although I am cautious and stop pushing...

It sounds better than the JL and the Focal 10WM I had before it good blend of power and low end and is very accurate it just doesn’t misbehave in anyway - bass notes sound well like bass notes there is no ambiguity in way it portrays the bass notes... 

it has a Q 0.7 in a 35lt sealed box which is great because the JL needed a 3+cf for a 0.8Q and the JL weighs a ton without the box - I thought I was going to throw my back out every time I had to move the sub. 

I am receiving the other ML10 today - I need to collect it later and I have already built the box for the extra sub... 

For me Brax makes very nice bass drivers the Matrix 6.1 is also an impressive driver...

If you can swing the price it’s def the driver to have imho - I was lucky I bought mine at a really good price....


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