# Starting Point for active Focal PS 165 Components



## Souths1der (Aug 27, 2014)

I'm going to go active with my Focal PS 165's, using a PPI DSP-88R. This is in a Dodge Challenger, woofers in the doors, tweeters in the dash pointing up into the windshield. Pioneer 8" shallow mount sub in the rear deck. Zapco ST-5X powering it all. I'm not looking to enter contests or be heard blocks away, just want really good everyday sound at a decent sound level when the song rocks.

What are your suggestions as my starting point for the X-over and slope settings?


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

sub lowpass at 80 hz 24 db, midbass highpass at 80 at 24 db, mids lowpass at 2.2khz at 24 db, tweeters highpass at 3100 24 db. the gap usually improves tonal response in that range but if its too abrupt try 18 and 12 db slopes.


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## Ziggyrama (Jan 17, 2016)

Lycancatt said:


> sub lowpass at 80 hz 24 db, midbass highpass at 80 at 24 db, mids lowpass at 2.2khz at 24 db, tweeters highpass at 3100 24 db. the gap usually improves tonal response in that range but if its too abrupt try 18 and 12 db slopes.


I agree on the high pass for the mid base. Regarding the low pass, interesting idea on pulling them apart. I have considered that too since I had to cut in the EQ beyond my crossover point to achieve the desired curve so perhaps moving the point is a better option. 

That tweeter can go fairly low so you can go with a crossover point at 3khz, maybe even 2.8khz. Even at 2.8khz that is 2x the Fs frequency of that driver, it can do it and I heard others going as low as 2.5khz without problems.

The tweeter is bright so I would mount in off axis configuration, and cut them down significantly.


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## Souths1der (Aug 27, 2014)

I've been searching for the spec sheets on the individual components so I can see what their respective Fs is...could never find it. Was worried about going too low until I got verification they could handle them.

Initial install I have the mids/tweets at 4500 with a 12dB slope. That slope was the only one where it didn't sound horrible...which means it's still not good. I'm going to try these settings this evening when I get home from work.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Specifications sheets are in the documents section near the bottom of the page. http://www.focal.com/en/car-audio/c...rmance/expert/component-kits/ps-165#decouvrir

I have those Focal PS 165 components in my wife’s Sienna and ditched the aluminum dome tweeters for some Vifa/Peerless NE25VTS-04 1" Silk Dome Tweeters, which have better detail and go much lower. Still messing around with the crossover points but currently have it crossed with an Audio Control 2XS at 3600 Hz and running of an NVX mini 4 channel amplifier. I'm not as impressed with the Focal 6.5" woofer either. I have much cheaper Dayton Audio ND140-4 5-1/4" mid bass Drivers in my other vehicle and those really sound good especially in the mid-range, which are also crossed with an Audio Control 2XS at 3600 Hz but with Tang Band 25-302SH soft dome tweeters in the A pillars and an older Alpine MRP F240 running the set. Thinking about ditching the Focal mid bass woofers for something else but I think if my wife catches me messing with it again I’ll be in the bog house for a week.


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## Souths1der (Aug 27, 2014)

I'm not liking the Focal's either. I can't quite put my finger on why though. They sound "OK", but not great. I've got them crossed at 4kHz 24dB slope right now. This produces the best "OK" sound for my ear. I have also switched from the PPI DSP and Zapco Amp to an RF 3Sixty.3 and RF P1000x5 amp. That combo of PPI and Zapco amp had a very high noise floor and alternator whine. The whine went away with this new gear and the noise floor dropped considerably. Units are in the same location with the same wiring.

This is a new car for me, and my old one I had some PPI 3-ways, and those were fantastic....even after the 3" mids voice coils melted and I was left with 2-ways. The melted coils in the mids was apparently a known problem...yet my replacement mids never arrived...and then they stopped answering my calls/emails. I'm hesitant to buy another set because of that experience, plus I also thought I'd spend a little more money this time for a more higher end product.

Lately I've been looking at different components to see if I should piecemeal a set of mids and tweeters. Your info gives me some welcomed information.


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## Ziggyrama (Jan 17, 2016)

Souths1der said:


> I'm not liking the Focal's either. I can't quite put my finger on why though. They sound "OK", but not great. I've got them crossed at 4kHz 24dB slope right now. This produces the best "OK" sound for my ear. I have also switched from the PPI DSP and Zapco Amp to an RF 3Sixty.3 and RF P1000x5 amp. That combo of PPI and Zapco amp had a very high noise floor and alternator whine. The whine went away with this new gear and the noise floor dropped considerably. Units are in the same location with the same wiring.
> 
> This is a new car for me, and my old one I had some PPI 3-ways, and those were fantastic....even after the 3" mids voice coils melted and I was left with 2-ways. The melted coils in the mids was apparently a known problem...yet my replacement mids never arrived...and then they stopped answering my calls/emails. I'm hesitant to buy another set because of that experience, plus I also thought I'd spend a little more money this time for a more higher end product.
> 
> Lately I've been looking at different components to see if I should piecemeal a set of mids and tweeters. Your info gives me some welcomed information.


I think you are crossing them way too high. Try bringing the xover down to 3khz or even 2.8khz, LR4 slope. The tweeters can do it. I think you will find that they sound much better that way. At least I did. I found 3.6khz xover point to be lifeless and have narrow staging. I moved to 2.7khz xover and the improvement was pretty dramatic. Obviously, your results may vary due to many variables.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Ziggyramma, I thought that too but when I crossed mine lower than 3000 Hz they didnt sound so good. I tried crossing all the way down to 2500 Hz with a 24 db slope using the Pioneer HU's Network Mode with the Peerless tweeters NE25VTS-04 and they started to get that scratchy sound and just sounded not so good overall. The stock crossover point for the passive crossovers on the Focal PS 165 set have to be at least 4000 hz with 2nd order points as the Fs on the Focal aluminum dome tweeters is 2950 Hz.

The issue I'm having with the Focal 6.5" woofers in my wifes Sienna located in the front doors is in the 125 Hz to 315 Hz mid base region where they have this weird almost semblance to them that makes me want to turn the volume down. If I EQ those areas down -3 or more db than it sounds much easier to listen too on the ears.

I'm considering the following 6.5" mid base drivers right now to replace the Focal if I cant figure this out:

Audiofrog GS60 6.5" woofer
SB Acoustics SB17MFC35-4 6.5" Poly Cone Woofer
SSA 6.5 Evil, although I cant find enough information on these to comfortably decide

Here is the weird thing! In my Mazda CX5 I have these cheap Polk db 6501 components with some Morel MTD 12 tweeters used on the cheapo Polk passive crossovers and a Pioneer prs-d4200f amplifier pushing 75 watts RMS into those through an Audio Control DQ-61 DSP and this combination actually sounds really really good. Even without my JL W3V3 sub those mid bass drivers can belt out the lows down to 40 Hz without a HP filter and the mid bass and midrage is respectable considering how cheap this set was. The mid range on the Dayton drivers in my truck is better but its not a huge difference to me. I was going to change those out too but maybe not. The passive crossovers on those cross at 4000 Hz and I think they are 2nd order on at least the tweeters anyway.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Consider these small format highly rated tweeters too:

Peerless OT19NC00 2/3" Ring Radiator Tweeter - 4 ohm
SEAS Prestige 27TFFNC/G (H1396) 1" Textile Dome Tweeter
SB Acoustics SB26STCN-C000-4 tweeter, 4 ohms
ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004/6020-00 Tweeter Textile Dome

All can be found on www.madisoundspeakerstore.com


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## Ziggyrama (Jan 17, 2016)

V8toilet said:


> Ziggyramma, I thought that too but when I crossed mine lower than 3000 Hz they didnt sound so good. I tried crossing all the way down to 2500 Hz with a 24 db slope using the Pioneer HU's Network Mode with the Peerless tweeters NE25VTS-04 and they started to get that scratchy sound and just sounded not so good overall. The stock crossover point for the passive crossovers on the Focal PS 165 set have to be at least 4000 hz with 2nd order points as the Fs on the Focal aluminum dome tweeters is 2950 Hz.
> 
> The issue I'm having with the Focal 6.5" woofers in my wifes Sienna located in the front doors is in the 125 Hz to 315 Hz mid base region where they have this weird almost semblance to them that makes me want to turn the volume down. If I EQ those areas down -3 or more db than it sounds much easier to listen too on the ears.
> 
> ...


I apologize, I misread the model name for the set. I was under impression that we were discussing ps165fx, but in fact we're talking about ps165. Ignore what I said, as my experience is with ps165fx which is a completely different animal. This explains why your results are so different than mine. The mid base and tweeter drivers are very different from what I am running. According to documentation, the passive network supports 4khz, 4.5khz and 5khz which tells us roughly where the tweeter wants to live. This set is using TNP tweeter which sports Fs of 2950Hz so yeah, crossing it below 4KHz sounds like a bad idea. It probably wants to be closer to 5KHz but that woofer will struggle that high, given its size. I can see how why you may have problems. To give you a point of reference, the ps165fx runs a TNF tweeter which has a Fs of 1350Hz, a HUGE difference. This is why I was suggesting to cross it lower, but in the end I was comparing apples to sandals. Sorry about the confusion.


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## Ziggyrama (Jan 17, 2016)

@V8toilet, take a look at this spec sheet for the mid driver:

http://www.focal.com/sites/www.focal.fr/files/shared/catalog/document/PS165_woofer_technical-sheet.pdf

Notice that midbase response get a bump between 100hz - 200hz, which suggests that you should cut in that area if you think it is too much. Assuming you have them playing in off-axis configuration, notice how the response starts to roll off past 2khz, which is typical for this size of the driver, although the fall off is pretty dramatic. There is about 7db difference in response between 2khz and 4khz. You may have to boost to bring those frequencies back up a bit, if you're crossing with the tweeter around 4khz. If you go higher than 4khz, it will likely require more boosting up top, and that will probably not sound very good. Hard to tell for sure without listening to it.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Ziggyrama said:


> @V8toilet, take a look at this spec sheet for the mid driver:
> 
> http://www.focal.com/sites/www.focal.fr/files/shared/catalog/document/PS165_woofer_technical-sheet.pdf
> 
> Notice that midbase response get a bump between 100hz - 200hz, which suggests that you should cut in that area if you think it is too much. Assuming you have them playing in off-axis configuration, notice how the response starts to roll off past 2khz, which is typical for this size of the driver, although the fall off is pretty dramatic. There is about 7db difference in response between 2khz and 4khz. You may have to boost to bring those frequencies back up a bit, if you're crossing with the tweeter around 4khz. If you go higher than 4khz, it will likely require more boosting up top, and that will probably not sound very good. Hard to tell for sure without listening to it.


Mmm, you have pointed out something I totally missed even though I've looked at that many times. Goes to show you my inexperience there. I never took into account that mid bass hump there at 100 Hz to 300 Hz, which is where I've been cutting the frequency already with my Pioneers EQ. Looks like I may need to cut some more especially at 125 Hz. I also totally ignored that frequency response curve at 60 degrees off axis. You are right, I should lower the crossover point to somewhere between 2500 and 3000 Hz. There is also a spike at about 1600 Hz of about 4 db too.

I have read somewhere in a technical writing about speakers during my endless pursuit of knowledge about speakers and audio in general that a rise in response in the lower mid bass is not uncommon with high Qts drivers and the Focal has a Qts of .73. 

Souths1der, I hope this discussion we are having is helping you out in some way since its still on topic I believe.


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## Souths1der (Aug 27, 2014)

It is helping out quite a bit. I tried changing my crossovers and I think I made some headway. I have the tweeters at 3kHz with a 24dB LR HP filter. I have the mids HP at 3kHz and LP at 70Hz (was 85Hz) with 24dB LR. I have the Sub at 85 with a 24dB Butterworth. Sounds better, but still missing something. I can barely hear some drum passes in songs. Yet when I play individual tones from 20Hz - 20,000 I can hear them all at the same level (even tested the drivers individually while muting the ones I wasn't testing. It's really weird. Maybe a speaker plays a tone different than the suddne hit of a drum. It's beyond my novice abilites. I personally think the mids have something wrong with them, so I don't know if I really want to put too much effort into these speakers since I already think I want to replace them...


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Souths1der said:


> It is helping out quite a bit. I tried changing my crossovers and I think I made some headway. I have the tweeters at 3kHz with a 24dB LR HP filter. I have the mids HP at 3kHz and LP at 70Hz (was 85Hz) with 24dB LR. I have the Sub at 85 with a 24dB Butterworth. Sounds better, but still missing something. I can barely hear some drum passes in songs. Yet when I play individual tones from 20Hz - 20,000 I can hear them all at the same level (even tested the drivers individually while muting the ones I wasn't testing. It's really weird. Maybe a speaker plays a tone different than the suddne hit of a drum. It's beyond my novice abilites. I personally think the mids have something wrong with them, so I don't know if I really want to put too much effort into these speakers since I already think I want to replace them...


Souths1der,

Try testing your speaker polarity by downloading (I think its a few bucks but well worth it) the Audio Control App and using the speaker polarity pop tester. If one speaker is out of phase it would screw with your lower mid bass and bass areas like that being out of phase. You'll need a long auxiliary cable to use that App too. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/mobile-tools/id955159698?mt=8 Test all your speakers including your subwoofer and tweeters. Also try adjusting the phase of the subwoofer too. If your amp, DSP, or head unit doesn’t have that option you can use reverse the + & - speaker wires on the sub to do that same. 

Its my understanding (but I'm no expert) from my endless research that Linkwitz Riley 24 db crossovers work best when the tweeter and woofers are close to each other. In a car environment they are typically far apart and not even physically close to being aligned with one another so the benefit of that 6 db offset of the Linkwitz Riley crossover kind of goes out the window. Try using an 18 db crossover point and try it with the subwoofer on and off and even with no overlap as you currently have it. Also try and play that song with the missing information you described with only the left or right side playing and also with only the front or rear speakers playing to try and isolate the offender. 

Lastly make sure you have a good source playing your music. If you are using a 128k MP3 well than its not very good to use as a reference, CD or lossless is better. Try and play that same song on a known good setup like someone else’s system or your home audio system if you have one. 

Lastly read "crossover networks from a to linkwitz-riley" if you haven't done so already located at the bottom of the page here 2XS - AudioControl


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## Souths1der (Aug 27, 2014)

It is possible I have a polarity issue on my inputs into the 3Sixty.3. When I was setting up the system initially, I had a hell of a time finding a wiring diagram. A user on my car specific forum ended up having one and shared it. But when I was taking out my stock drivers, I checked the poles on them with a battery to see which was pos and neg, and then matched those to the wires. On 4 of the 6 drivers that was different than what was in the diagram. All the wires on the diagram matched in terms of color and location in the harness, so I believe the diagram has some validity. In any event, I have the inputs into the DSP as I found in my battery test. Perhaps I need to try with a different input configuration....damn I hate soldering.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Souths1der said:


> It is possible I have a polarity issue on my inputs into the 3Sixty.3. When I was setting up the system initially, I had a hell of a time finding a wiring diagram. A user on my car specific forum ended up having one and shared it. But when I was taking out my stock drivers, I checked the poles on them with a battery to see which was pos and neg, and then matched those to the wires. On 4 of the 6 drivers that was different than what was in the diagram. All the wires on the diagram matched in terms of color and location in the harness, so I believe the diagram has some validity. In any event, I have the inputs into the DSP as I found in my battery test. Perhaps I need to try with a different input configuration....damn I hate soldering.


Why not try that App? No soldering or taking apart wires and interior panels needed. Just run the signal through your system and point the microphone from your phone swards the speaker being tested for polarity and it tells you if its positive or negative. I had used some speaker adapters from Crutchfield for installation of the speakers in one of my older vehicles about 3 years ago, which were supposed to be plug and play adapters with the correct polarity and low and behold when I ran that test last year one of the woofers was reversed. When I changed the wires on that woofer my bass response greatly improved. Now I always run this test during installation to make sure everything is right before I put the doors panels back on. Pretty reliable test too so long as you use an Aux cable and not the USB or Bluetooth.


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## Souths1der (Aug 27, 2014)

I replied before really thinking about it. I plan to use the app. Since I need to test my inputs to the DSP, I'm going to use some alligator clips and effectively jumper over the DSP and amp. I'll just clip on the solder joint on the DSP's harness and then unhook the speakers from the amp and clip on a speaker. Then I just have to un-clip and re-clip onto the next input on the DSP harness. Shouldn't take long to do all six inputs. Maybe I just have one or two inputs reversed that I would have to cut and re-solder.


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## Ziggyrama (Jan 17, 2016)

V8toilet said:


> Its my understanding (but I'm no expert) from my endless research that Linkwitz Riley 24 db crossovers work best when the tweeter and woofers are close to each other. In a car environment they are typically far apart and not even physically close to being aligned with one another so the benefit of that 6 db offset of the Linkwitz Riley crossover kind of goes out the window. Try using an 18 db crossover point and try it with the subwoofer on and off and even with no overlap as you currently have it. Also try and play that song with the missing information you described with only the left or right side playing and also with only the front or rear speakers playing to try and isolate the offender.


LR4 crossover has several benefits. Flat summing at the xover point is one of them. Even if drivers are far apart, if the levels are matched, they should sum flat. The problem typically is that one driver is closer to your ear then the other which means it has a higher relative level to the other driver. If you correct the levels, they should sum correctly. You should use level setting and time alignment to correct for this.

Another big advantage of LR4 is that it keeps both drivers in phase which is very important in low and mid range frequencies where we detect phase issues. Each xover order introduces 90 degree phase shift in the signal. So, if you use LR2 you should flip phase on one of the drivers to put them back in phase, or you will have major audible problems in your crossover region. 2nd order xovers are very popular in passive systems and this is why often times flipping polarity on the sub makes things better. LR4 basically wraps you around 360degrees back into phase. Note, it is in phase but a full cycle off from the other driver. Interesting thing is that since the progression is gradual as you approach the xover point and both drivers shift in phase, the effect is not audible. Phase is very important when you are dealing with subs and mid bass or mid bass and mid driver. As you go into higher frequencies and wavelength gets much shorter, we just can't hear it. Still good to keep your tweeters in phase but it isn't as critical as other drivers.

This is why LR4 is usually a good place to start. It removes phase problems, it provides a steep slope to protect your drivers and it sums flat. Sometimes other settings work better but LR4 is a solid start and should go a long way in your tuning.


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## Souths1der (Aug 27, 2014)

Turns out all three left side inputs into my RF3Sixty.3 were in reverse plarity. Fixed that last night, not my center image is gone. The sound is more lively though, so I believe we found what was wrong with my overall response. Spent about 30 minutes trying to get my image back and just couldn't. So here is where my system is at right now.

Tweeters - HP at 3kHz 24dB LR filter
Mids - HP at 80Hz and LP at 3kHz 24dB LR filter
Sub - LP at 80Hz 24dB LR filter

By Measurement difference, my drivers are:
Right Tweeter - 3"
Right Mid - 0"
Sub - 1"
Left Mid - 15"
Left Tweeter - 16"

Those are the figures I had in the DSP before fixing the input polarity, and now the image isn't centered. Suggestions?


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Souths1der said:


> Turns out all three left side inputs into my RF3Sixty.3 were in reverse plarity. Fixed that last night, not my center image is gone. The sound is more lively though, so I believe we found what was wrong with my overall response. Spent about 30 minutes trying to get my image back and just couldn't. So here is where my system is at right now.
> 
> Tweeters - HP at 3kHz 24dB LR filter
> Mids - HP at 80Hz and LP at 3kHz 24dB LR filter
> ...


Did you run the auto time alignment on the RF3Sixty.3 again with the new changes? I briefly looked into the RF3Sixty.3 features and it has the ability to twitch phase for each speaker through its settings. The settings for time alignment on my Pioneer AVH5800BHS installed in my Sienna seem to be opposite of what you have from using the auto EQ with a optional mic.


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## Souths1der (Aug 27, 2014)

Yes, I re-ran the configuration. And the ability to switch phase is on the outputs, my error was on the inputs.

The 3Sixty.3 has no mic or ability to auto set the time alignment. I did the measurements with a tape measure.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

hello fellow illinoisan !


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Souths1der said:


> Yes, I re-ran the configuration. And the ability to switch phase is on the outputs, my error was on the inputs.
> 
> The 3Sixty.3 has no mic or ability to auto set the time alignment. I did the measurements with a tape measure.





Souths1der said:


> Yes, I re-ran the configuration. And the ability to switch phase is on the outputs, my error was on the inputs.
> 
> The 3Sixty.3 has no mic or ability to auto set the time alignment. I did the measurements with a tape measure.


Try watching this guys video part 5 on time alignment. It might help you with your adjustments as according to this guy adjusting time alignment is one of the hardest things to get right. His series in general on using REV RTA with his Helix DSP and adjusting crossovers is pretty good. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkGQN7dH5NE


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## Ziggyrama (Jan 17, 2016)

FYI, recently a member here posted how to do TA using REW and impulse response. This is a relatively new feature in REW. I will try it this weekend:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/317537-measuring-impulse-response-ta-using-rew-umik-1-a.html


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## Souths1der (Aug 27, 2014)

Headway....

I spent the day reading up on TA and phase on the forum here, got some ideas. While my kid was at basketball practice, I was out in the parking lot doing some tuning. 

The first thing I tried was to take away all TA settings, everything set to 0. To my surprise the image was pretty damn close to center. Only thing I can think of is that the factory amp must be doing some processing. It also sounded much better, more lively.

Then I thought about the mistake of having the DSP inputs on the left side reversed and wondered if I could emulate that. So I flipped the polarity on the left tweeter and mid which made the stage horrible. Then I applied the original distances I had and my stage centered even better than before, and sounded a little better too. Next I flipped polarity on the sub and bass response improved as well.

I'm liking where its at right now, especially the crossovers.


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## Rickloreto (Feb 26, 2021)

Souths1der said:


> I'm going to go active with my Focal PS 165's, using a PPI DSP-88R. This is in a Dodge Challenger, woofers in the doors, tweeters in the dash pointing up into the windshield. Pioneer 8" shallow mount sub in the rear deck. Zapco ST-5X powering it all. I'm not looking to enter contests or be heard blocks away, just want really good everyday sound at a decent sound level when the song rocks.
> 
> What are your suggestions as my starting point for the X-over and slope settings?


Took a peak at most of the replies, hear is my .02 as per my equipement its a little different with different equipment and car acoustics. Dsp is a little better than a Loc like the LC7i from audio control if you look for that perfect time alignment and such.
My equipement is:
Focal ps165f3 3 way passive crossover components (in all 3 oem speaker slots in the car (2018 mustang)) 
Focal Rear pc165 coaxials
JL Audio w6v3-D4 12” in a custom made ported enclosure
LC7i and JL audio RD 900/5 amp. 
I usually tweak the frequencies on the fly depending on music types while my radio has max volume at 30 I use 22 as my highest volume since 22.5 is 75% of the volume then set the LC7 at 2v which is about 20% of the dial since my amp is in the 2v low voltage setting for best clean signal, then i’ve noticed having my amps front stage at HPF 80 is perfect same for the rears and LPF 80 as well for that perfect blend however thats the THX norm having it crossover at 80 i’ve found if you want more distortion free headroom at higher volumes you can up the blend to 90-100 if your sub is ok with this blend (normally good subs are rated 20-200HZ but will be very good between 60-110HZ I wouldn’t suggest going above or below 80-100 max due to localization. Try one of your go to songs and si which plays better between 80-100 crossovers between speakers/subs as for my gains front and rears are around 1.5-2 out of 10 at the 22 max volume on newer music it will be around 18 for max volume so watch out for that music thats mid bass heavy. A lot of people go 100-120HZ for speakers and sub at a 100 but you notice a gap. Speakers will last longer playing loud if you up the Hz to 120 but if your aim is quality at lower volumes through the entire 80%of the volume use the 80-90 range crossover for blending. Focal woofers are 66fs for mine even 80hz blend sounds amazing but in some music 18 volume is quite the max for them so I try not going past 18 for most of the newer music for 70’s-90’s rock music I liked the 100hz crossover a lot mainly because of the high headroom and the sub and mid woofers take most of the bass drum and low guitar frequencies very good (love that van halen Balance album on that crossover point it seems like you are watching them live at 20 volume for mine)


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