# moded Bit One



## Matt R

I wont share


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## ErinH

So..... what did you do, why did you do it, and what was the end result?

(you gotta spell this stuff out to me, man. I can't read no circuit board. )


Edit: I posted too soon.


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## Matt R

anymore


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## mattyjman

in for details...


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## Matt R

vvvv


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## mattyjman

sounds great... if i knew anything about what you said. 

let me get this straight... you upped the ante on power supply filtering, keeping noise down, and then added some better caps to help with clean power delivery to amps?

are these upgrades for the unit being used in analog or digital inputs?


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## Matt R

diy ?


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## req

another win for matt roberts 

if only i could get the noise away from my pair of H701's.

do you think its mean that i have two 701 brains and im not using one? :uhoh:


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## Matt R

1234


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## Mic10is

Matt R said:


> No tellin, sounds like you need a 7996 hu to go digital into your 701. They are pretty notorious for having noise running analog into them.


he has a 9861
I have a 9860
others are using 205 and 505 and are developing noise

check out the post in Technical forum about 700/701 noise.

maybe you have some input or can talk to Todd (highly) about possible causes. hes been looking at and testing mine


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## Matt R

yep!


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## ErinH

Matt,
Would you be interested in lending me one of your modded units to test against a non-modded unit? It's a very simple test. Takes all of 5 minutes. I can have it boxed up and headed back out to you within 2 days. 
I can try to locate a one that's unmodded for comparison and show what your mods do to it (ie: reduce noise floor, etc). I think it'd be cool to see, personally. I've got one of your modded DEQ-P9's here to test... just need to find an un-modded version for comparison.

Here's some info on what kind of testing I'm talking about:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...rs-pioneer-deh-p9-pioneer-800prs-testing.html


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## SSSnake

I would be VERY interested in this comparison. While I believe that manufacturers pinch EVERY last penny to get cost per unit down I do wonder how much the mods will effect the SQ (I've always been a return on investment kind of guy).

On a side note - Do you recommend mods to the Behringer DCX 2496?


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## Blazemore

Ever thought about selling installation upgrade instructions / parts packages for the DIY crowd?


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## Matt R

bikinpunk said:


> Matt,
> Would you be interested in lending me one of your modded units to test against a non-modded unit? It's a very simple test. Takes all of 5 minutes. I can have it boxed up and headed back out to you within 2 days.
> I can try to locate a one that's unmodded for comparison and show what your mods do to it (ie: reduce noise floor, etc). I think it'd be cool to see, personally. I've got one of your modded DEQ-P9's here to test... just need to find an un-modded version for comparison.
> 
> Here's some info on what kind of testing I'm talking about:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...rs-pioneer-deh-p9-pioneer-800prs-testing.html


vvvv


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## chad

Matt R said:


> Hey Ziggy, i'm wondering if I should be offended and say **** YOU for making a mockery of my work? I like to share some of my work with the diy community and I dont care for seeing my pics minipulated and disrespected like that. If you didnt intend for that maybe you should take that post down.


Chill, maybe you should send some of you mod pics to the people that make these things......

What's gonna happen when one of these go in for service for a broken connection from a "blob job?"

I would NEVER EVER send ANYTHING on the road like that and call it reliable... shelf worthy, maybe.


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## ErinH

Matt R said:


> What moded P9 do you have with my work. I only have 4 units that I have done and I know exactly where 3 of them are. The other just shipped out last week?


it's the DSP; not the deck. just wanted to clarify. we can carry to pm if you'd like.


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## Matt R

chad said:


> Chill, maybe you should send some of you mod pics to the people that make these things......
> 
> What's gonna happen when one of these go in for service for a broken connection from a "blob job?"
> 
> I would NEVER EVER send ANYTHING on the road like that and call it reliable... shelf worthy, maybe.


Chill? I dont see anyone pointing the finger at you from pics of your work. 

Anyone who gets their equipment moded knows they void the factory warranty. All the pics I take are before I glue all the components down, glued pics arent the best looking things. 

I have many world championship cars with highly moded equipment with no failures to date. I would say championship worthy not just road worthy much less shelf worthy.


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## bose301s

Matt R said:


> Chill? I dont see anyone pointing the finger at you from pics of your work.
> 
> Anyone who gets their equipment moded knows they void the factory warranty. All the pics I take are before I glue all the components down, glued pics arent the best looking things.
> 
> I have many world championship cars with highly moded equipment with no failures to date. I would say championship worthy not just road worthy much less shelf worthy.


Still looks like it was soldered by Michael J Fox on one of his bad days, no amount of glue will fix that.

Also, lets put em on the bench vs. stock, willing to bet any measured differences in output are below the human threshold for discernment.


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## Matt R

Wow, you guys are pretty rude. I'll gladly take my pics down since they're not worthy of being on this forum.


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## Matt R

bikinpunk said:


> it's the DSP; not the deck. just wanted to clarify. we can carry to pm if you'd like.


Yeah, there are only 4 in existence, wondering which one you have. They are all different levels of mods with different parts.


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## Mic10is

Matt--this is DIY mobile Audio----you are a definite ambassador for Doing things Yourself in Audio.
Please continue to share what you do, you are an asset to the forum, regardless of whatever others may think. I m actually very thankful youve finally decided to share "some" of your secrets.


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## chad

Matt R said:


> Chill? I dont see anyone pointing the finger at you from pics of your work.


Because there is no reason to. 

The work I do outside of EXPERIMENTAL work I do here, which there are few if no pics of, is to spec and still on the road with flawless results... Period.

And When I say ROAD I mean bouncing around in semi trucks. Lloaded and unloaded everyday.... That kind of reliability. The blob job does not work, tried it as a newbie.



Try again.


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## chad

Mic10is said:


> Matt--this is DIY mobile Audio----you are a definite ambassador for Doing things Yourself in Audio.


THIS I agree with, it's the implementation I have issues with.


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## Matt R

chad said:


> Because there is no reason to.
> 
> The work I do outside of EXPERIMENTAL work I do here, which there are few if no pics of, is to spec and still on the road with flawless results... Period.
> 
> 
> 
> Try again.


Try again? I stated, I have won several world championships in SQ with mods like these. With no failure too, that seems like pretty good results to me. Maybe even "flawless"


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## chad

Matt R said:


> Try again? I stated, I have won several world championships in SQ with mods like these. With no failure too, that seems like pretty good results to me. Maybe even "flawless"


Man, I really don't give a **** what wins "worlds championships." I care about things that are RIGHT and LAST, and you have an idea of my standards now.

I guess I have won world championships too, my **** has gone on multi million dollar tours, without breaking, via plane, train, automobile, and back. But I can assure, you ONE thing, when I tried it like you do.. It broke.. often times within and alarmingly short period of time. Standards are put in place for a reason, hot glue or not. And it's not a skill or tool thing, I have the good **** tools and a ****load of experience, likely like you do. it's the implementation that's unreliable.

This ain't my first dog and pony show.

Many other people have won said "world" championships and will continue to without mods 

I do concur with this:



Matt R said:


> Thanks for photoshoping something on top of the already bad solder joints man. Your a real DICK!


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## bose301s

jimmy2345 said:


> Yep. He goes under the name MU Husky (or something close) and does nothing but harass people under that name as well.


Nope, only harass the stupid people, like you, jimmy.


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## Matt R

chad said:


> Man, I really don't give a **** what wins "worlds championships." I care about things that are RIGHT and LAST, and you have an idea of my standards now.
> 
> I guess I have won world championships too, my **** has gone on multi million dollar tours, without breaking, via plane, train, automobile, and back. But I can assure, you ONE thing, when I tried it like you do.. It broke.. often times within and alarmingly short period of time. Standards are put in place for a reason, hot glue or not. And it's not a skill or tool thing, I have the good **** tools and a ****load of experience, likely like you do. it's the implementation that's unreliable.
> 
> This ain't my first dog and pony show.
> 
> Many other people have won said "world" championships and will continue to without mods
> 
> I do concur with this:


So putting what I felt was rude comments aside, you feel the through hole caps with bent legs, soldered to surface mount pads are the unreliable part? The only caps done that way was the 10uf coupling caps. Or is it the .1uf film decoupling caps soldered across surface mount caps that you think will be unreliable?

Those are the only things in the bit one that is not soldered to spec. 

All the larger caps are through hole and bent over cause they are too tall. Many car audio companies do that including Pioneer and Sound Monitor.


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## bose301s

Matt R said:


> So putting what I felt was rude comments aside, you feel the through hole caps with bent legs, soldered to surface mount pads are the unreliable part? The only caps done that way was the 10uf coupling caps. Or is it the .1uf film decoupling caps soldered across surface mount caps that you think will be unreliable?
> 
> Those are the only things in the bit one that is not soldered to spec.
> 
> All the larger caps are through hole and bent over cause they are too tall. Many car audio companies do that including Pioneer and Sound Monitor.


Not a good idea to solder through-hole parts to solder pads, very easy to tear off the solder pad when that is done, especially in an environment like a car that has so many bumps and vibrations.


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## chad

Matt R said:


> So putting what I felt was rude comments aside, you feel the through hole caps with bent legs, soldered to surface mount pads are the unreliable part? The only caps done that way was the 10uf coupling caps. Or is it the .1uf film decoupling caps soldered across surface mount caps that you think will be unreliable?


Thank you

Yes, that's what I'm commenting on is due to torsional stress, and shockingly enough it seemed to get worse for me after being affixed from the top 

No doubt. I thought I had it.

There ARE some fantastic SMT components out there. Fortunately though, for me, I'm dealing more now with vintage stuff... WHEW!


You are in a tough world in terms of mods, but it's time to look past the thru-hole stuff.

I'm off to bed, I'm batchin' it without the wife and kid for a few days. I'm beat and the dogs are freaked out about the situation.

And it's gettin' silly in here.

Seeyas in the morning.


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## Matt R

chad said:


> Thank you
> 
> Yes, that's what I'm commenting on is due to torsional stress, and shockingly enough it seemed to get worse for me after being affixed from the top
> 
> No doubt. I thought I had it.
> 
> There ARE some fantastic SMT components out there. Fortunately though, for me, I'm dealing more now with vintage stuff... WHEW!
> 
> 
> You are in a tough world in terms of mods, but it's time to look past the thru-hole stuff.
> 
> I'm off to bed, I'm batchin' it without the wife and kid for a few days. I'm beat and the dogs are freaked out about the situation.
> 
> And it's gettin' silly in here.
> 
> Seeyas in the morning.


I understand those are definate concerns and i've gone through 4 different types of glue before setteling on one that satisfied me. I've had good luck so far. I've been doing this type of mod (through hole to surface mount) for about 6 years now and havent had any problems yet. Hot glue is not the glue of choice by the way. I know Nichicon has some good surface mount caps but I just cant get away from the silmic's.


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## bose301s

Matt R said:


> I understand those are definate concerns and i've gone through 4 different types of glue before setteling on one that satisfied me. I've had good luck so far. I've been doing this type of mod (through hole to surface mount) for about 6 years now and havent had any problems yet. Hot glue is not the glue of choice by the way. I know Nichicon has some good surface mount caps but I just cant get away from the silmic's.


It's still an added stress point and possible fail point, the traces on PCBs aren't extremely strong and are pretty easy to lift or tear off, definitely should at least try SMT parts.


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## jimmy2345

Matt R said:


> I understand those are definate concerns and i've gone through 4 different types of glue before setteling on one that satisfied me. I've had good luck so far. I've been doing this type of mod (through hole to surface mount) for about 6 years now and havent had any problems yet. Hot glue is not the glue of choice by the way. I know Nichicon has some good surface mount caps but I just cant get away from the silmic's.


Don't even humor chad, Matt. He always does this same thing; comes into a thread talking **** to draw attention to himself and then tries to play your friend to get you to doubt your actions while he sits at home drinking his 42nd beer of the night. You are humoring an alcoholic under the influence.


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## Matt R

jimmy2345 said:


> Don't even humor chad, Matt. He always does this same thing; comes into a thread talking **** to draw attention to himself and then tries to play your friend to get you to doubt your actions while he sits at home drinking his 42nd beer of the night. You are humoring an alcoholic under the influence.


Haha, Idont know him personally so I cant comment. 

There is a concern about the surface mount pads but I feel I have come up with great methods to overcome these problems. I usually dont show final pics with the components glued in because its pretty ugly IMO.

I was a bit offended by the "not road worthy, maybe shelf worthy" comment though. It seemd pretty childish and he could have pointed out the specific concerns he has within the pics. If we are supposed to help each other in this diy community that may have been a helpfull discussion.


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## SouthSyde

At the end of the day, its the customer's satisfaction which is most important, and I for one is very happy with all of the work that Matt has done for me. I have from his modded amp, modded processor, and even custom line driver that he built just for my car (which is a PITA to work on). I have noticed sustainable differences in the sound of his mods. And even in the 100 degrees weather of the texas sun, everything works wonderfully day in and day out. 

All those that are talkin **** about his work obviously have not heard any of his modded pieces. I have stated this before and i will state it once again, i am a fan and customer for life of his mods. 

Matt, keep up the great work bud!!!


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## bose301s

SouthSyde said:


> At the end of the day, its the customer's satisfaction which is most important, and I for one is very happy with all of the work that Matt has done for me. I have from his modded amp, modded processor, and even custom line driver that he built just for my car (which is a PITA to work on). I have noticed sustainable differences in the sound of his mods. And even in the 100 degrees weather of the texas sun, everything works wonderfully day in and day out.
> 
> All those that are talkin **** about his work obviously have not heard any of his modded pieces. I have stated this before and i will state it once again, i am a fan and customer for life of his mods.
> 
> Matt, keep up the great work bud!!!


The problem is this could very easily be a placebo effect situation. You paid the money, had the mods done and you know they are there so you want to hear a difference so your brain says you do, whether there is an actual measurable difference or not. Not saying that's for sure but to prove you are hearing something and that it isn't placebo his mods need to be tested on the bench scientifically, none of this "it's better because I heard a difference" Human ears are rather lousy quantitative devices and our auditory memory is extremely short, if you had more than a minute or 2 between hearing your system with and without the mods your before and after listening is invalid.


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## SouthSyde

bose301s said:


> The problem is this could very easily be a placebo effect situation. You paid the money, had the mods done and you know they are there so you want to hear a difference so your brain says you do, whether there is an actual measurable difference or not. Not saying that's for sure but to prove you are hearing something and that it isn't placebo his mods need to be tested on the bench scientifically, none of this "it's better because I heard a difference" Human ears are rather lousy quantitative devices and our auditory memory is extremely short, if you had more than a minute or 2 between hearing your system with and without the mods your before and after listening is invalid.


LOL I assure you its no placebo effect. I guess all amps sound the same to you also? I dont have the best ears in the world, but i pride myself in having a pretty good one. You are speaking about something you have never heard nor touched in your life, yet automatically claim that its my "placebo" thats the "problem."

The line driver in my previous setup for example. A buddy of mine, who is obllivious to mods and what not heard my car with the zapco hi/lo converter. A couple days later, i put in the custom line driver, and he noticed a HUGE difference. So much that he is also now a firm believer in what Matt's work can do. And that was all i did.

Here's the point. Matt's mods cannot fix bad speaker placement, nor a resonating panel. But IF your install is one point, and you want to take your system to another level, the mods can help take you there. It could make a GREAT sounding car to one that blows everyone's mind. It could give your that extra UMPH that takes you over the competition. 

Those of you who have not heard his work, please refrain to keep those negative comments to yourself.. Dont knock it will you try it.


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## ErinH

damn, guys.... talk about derailing. I cleaned up the thread. Let's keep it pertinent (ie: without the unnecessary hack-shop pictures ).


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## Matt R

bose301s said:


> Still looks like it was soldered by Michael J Fox on one of his bad days, no amount of glue will fix that.
> 
> Also, lets put em on the bench vs. stock, willing to bet any measured differences in output are below the human threshold for discernment.


Hey Bikinpunk, if your gonna leave disrespectfull posts like this^ I should be able to call him a DICK!


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## bose301s

SouthSyde said:


> LOL I assure you its no placebo effect. I guess all amps sound the same to you also? I dont have the best ears in the world, but i pride myself in having a pretty good one. You are speaking about something you have never heard nor touched in your life, yet automatically claim that its my "placebo" thats the "problem."
> 
> The line driver in my previous setup for example. A buddy of mine, who is obllivious to mods and what not heard my car with the zapco hi/lo converter. A couple days later, i put in the custom line driver, and he noticed a HUGE difference. So much that he is also now a firm believer in what Matt's work can do. And that was all i did.
> 
> Here's the point. Matt's mods cannot fix bad speaker placement, nor a resonating panel. But IF your install is one point, and you want to take your system to another level, the mods can help take you there. It could make a GREAT sounding car to one that blows everyone's mind. It could give your that extra UMPH that takes you over the competition.
> 
> Those of you who have not heard his work, please refrain to keep those negative comments to yourself.. Dont knock it will you try it.


No, I did not say that it was but am suggesting that it may be. Again, human auditory memory is on the order of minutes, not days or even hours, so the fact that your friend heard it days later makes his judgement pretty much null.

As for amps, all _should_ sound the same, all an amp is supposed to do is be a gain device, it is not supposed to add any characteristics of its own to the sound, if it does it is no longer a pure gain device. In practice I know this isn't true as different design methodologies affect the sound via distortion etc.

I'm not trying to be negative anymore, but psychoacoustics is a very powerful thing and so is the placebo effect, on a direct, double blind, level matched comparison things may or may not come out differently.


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## ErinH

Matt R said:


> Hey Bikinpunk, if your gonna leave disrespectfull posts like this^ I should be able to call him a DICK!


His name is Richard, so I guess it makes sense.


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## chad

jimmy2345 said:


> Don't even humor chad, Matt. He always does this same thing; comes into a thread talking **** to draw attention to himself and then tries to play your friend to get you to doubt your actions while he sits at home drinking his 42nd beer of the night. You are humoring an alcoholic under the influence.


Jimmy, stop being a retard.

This is not the first time I have expressed concerns about this. So piss up a rope.

I'm not a drunk, I'm always an *******.


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## mmiller

Matt R said:


> Wow, you guys are pretty rude. I'll gladly take my pics down since they're not worthy of being on this forum.


Rude is not even the word for some of the clowns on this forum!


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## [email protected]

bose301s said:


> No, I did not say that it was but am suggesting that it may be. Again, human auditory memory is on the order of minutes, not days or even hours, so the fact that your friend heard it days later makes his judgement pretty much null.
> 
> As for amps, all _should_ sound the same, all an amp is supposed to do is be a gain device, it is not supposed to add any characteristics of its own to the sound, if it does it is no longer a pure gain device. In practice I know this isn't true as different design methodologies affect the sound via distortion etc.
> 
> I'm not trying to be negative anymore, but psychoacoustics is a very powerful thing and so is the placebo effect, on a direct, double blind, level matched comparison things may or may not come out differently.


So are you saying that if psycho-acoustics does change how you perceive the sound, that its not a justifiable investment?


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## b&camp

I have a blue wire nut in my install that I was told will increase my sound quality drastically. Was worth every penny.


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## [email protected]

b&camp said:


> I have a blue wire nut in my install that I was told will increase my sound quality drastically. Was worth every penny.


Wire nuts are for newbies, try a butt connector if you want to step up in sound.


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## b&camp

This is no normal blue wire nut


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## DS-21

Matt R said:


> I have many world championship cars with highly moded equipment with no failures to date. I would say championship worthy not just road worthy much less shelf worthy.


You do understand that a "world championship car" (i.e. a trailered vehicle that _might_ have the engine fired up to get it down the ramp and onto the parking lot that serves as judging venue) is completely out of the scope of the category "road worthy," right?

You sound afraid to have your work tested and any measured differences from the stock pieces demonstrated. Why?


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## matdotcom2000

bose301s said:


> No, I did not say that it was but am suggesting that it may be. Again, human auditory memory is on the order of minutes, not days or even hours, so the fact that your friend heard it days later makes his judgement pretty much null.
> 
> As for amps, all _should_ sound the same, all an amp is supposed to do is be a gain device, it is not supposed to add any characteristics of its own to the sound, if it does it is no longer a pure gain device. In practice I know this isn't true as different design methodologies affect the sound via distortion etc.
> 
> I'm not trying to be negative anymore, but psychoacoustics is a very powerful thing and so is the placebo effect, on a direct, double blind, level matched comparison things may or may not come out differently.


Ok let me say this first I dont know matt r that well and until about a month ago really didnt care too. But I feel I must say something. 
I have heard and assisted southsyde in back to back testing and installs of lotttts of expensive equipment. To me some sound the same, some sound different and some not worth the money, I really have never commented because this is a VERYYY subjective HOBBY. But never the less when I heard his car after the install of the matt r modded equipment and this may sound ignorant but i SAID Damn that sounds EXPENSIVE, could tell there was something really different and it wasnt the speakers because I had heard them on a unmodded bitone and dsp6. The modded zapco amp I cant comment too much about it because I had not back to back compared it to the unmodded zapco. But the linedriver and the modded dsp6 I knew that there was still some work to do as far as tuning but there was a definite difference. 

Blind testing maybe not but back to back testing along with a HONEST opinion regardless of the cost of the equipment because I am always trying to save money (I would rather have cheap equipment that sound GREAT than expensive equipment that sounds good) 

So Stop flamin this guy he has not had any customer complaints.. Me included now. And if you got a comment that is constructive keep it clean and unmean. I am here to learn part of the reason why I hardly ever post but I am always lurking since the beginning..

And By the way how did a thread on how matt r modded a bitone to be possibly better turn into...
Middle fingers on electrical thingys (for lack of a better word) and then say I mean no disrespect
too.. Those solder will never hold 
too.. Its pycho acoustics I tell you

HATTERS stop hattin... You dont like it dont buy it period.. 

Like I said before I dont kno this man that well but the sound of his work speaks volumes. And no this aint dick riding I just call it like I see it


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## [email protected]

DS-21 said:


> You do understand that a "world championship car" (i.e. a trailered vehicle that _might_ have the engine fired up to get it down the ramp and onto the parking lot that serves as judging venue) is completely out of the scope of the category "road worthy," right?
> 
> You sound afraid to have your work tested and any measured differences from the stock pieces demonstrated. Why?


I see no indication of being afraid of anything from him about that. I know you guys have said this several times. But when I want to A/B a amp to compare. I need to buy it so I can. If you guys think your so right and know it all, especially that there is no difference. Then why dont you guys buck up or pool your money together to test this. This is not a car dealer where you can take test drives for free.


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## nar93da

Anybody that is going to have a piece of equipment "modded" understands that the results may be marginal at best. If the owner of the piece is satisfied with the results that's all that matters.

Matt is working on my HX-D1 and I'd be more then willing to have it go to Erin for testing. I don't see any statement where Matt was unwilling to have a piece tested?


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## ErinH

someone here has already volunteered to have his bit1 tested before and after mod. Matt has said that it's the owner's choice, so he's OK with it.

I'm happy to do it. Though, I can't pay to ship everything I test. So, we just need about $40 to cover shipping both ways (from me to Matt, then me to the owner after I get it from Matt). 

Seriously. My PP addy is [email protected]. Feelin froggy? Leap! 



Nick, I'll be happy to do the same for your deck.



Edit:
Really, anyone can do this stuff themselves if they'd like. It's incredibly easy given you have a good soundcard and a power supply (or spare battery).


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## chefhow

DS-21 said:


> You do understand that a "world championship car" (i.e. a trailered vehicle that _might_ have the engine fired up to get it down the ramp and onto the parking lot that serves as judging venue) is completely out of the scope of the category "road worthy," right?
> 
> You sound afraid to have your work tested and any measured differences from the stock pieces demonstrated. Why?


Actually most if not all of his "World Championship cars", thats plural, are daily drivers not trailer queens. In fact the car that came in second overall last year at MECA finals was a Street Class car that is a DD and is a Matt R car. It was beaten by Mark Eldgridges Nascar, which is a hand built trailer car.

If you want to have his pieces tested and measured buy 2, send him one to be modified and test them.


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## DS-21

chefhow said:


> If you want to have his pieces tested and measured buy 2, send him one to be modified and test them.


I actually don't care one way or the other. I'm not even that interested in seeing the testing, because electronics are boring. It's just that Matt's childish response of pulling various pictures after his work was criticized, and hedging about "different levels of mods" simply implied fear to me. 

Of course, once title of a piece of property passes to another, it's not like Matt has any say whatsoever in what happens do it. Unless, I suppose, he makes buyers sign a purchase agreement with a "no science" clause.

As for buying them myself...I'm not interested in having copper basket handles installed on top of my audio electronics (see Jason's poor MS-8), but thanks.


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## [email protected]

DS-21 said:


> I actually don't care one way or the other. I'm not even that interested in seeing the testing, because electronics are boring. It's just that Matt's childish response of pulling various pictures after his work was criticized, and hedging about "different levels of mods" simply implied fear to me.
> 
> Of course, once title of a piece of property passes to another, it's not like Matt has any say whatsoever in what happens do it. Unless, I suppose, he makes buyers sign a purchase agreement with a "no science" clause.
> 
> As for buying them myself...I'm not interested in having copper basket handles installed on top of my audio electronics (see Jason's poor MS-8), but thanks.


I see, its not childish to come in and **** on his thread. Gotchya  There are 2 sides to every fence.


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## matdotcom2000

DS-21 said:


> I actually don't care one way or the other. I'm not even that interested in seeing the testing, because electronics are boring. It's just that Matt's childish response of pulling various pictures after his work was criticized, and hedging about "different levels of mods" simply implied fear to me.
> 
> Of course, once title of a piece of property passes to another, it's not like Matt has any say whatsoever in what happens do it. Unless, I suppose, he makes buyers sign a purchase agreement with a "no science" clause.
> 
> As for buying them myself...I'm not interested in having copper basket handles installed on top of my audio electronics (see Jason's poor MS-8), but thanks.


I dont know if I would say it was all childish after all what was done to his work was uncalled for. He spends alott of time and effort into the modds and what was done to his art work is like drawing a mustache on a picasso, at least thats the way I felt that matt saw it


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## DS-21

matdotcom2000 said:


> I dont know if I would say it was all childish after all what was done to his work was uncalled for. He spends alott of time and effort into the modds and what was done to his art work is like drawing a mustache on a picasso, at least thats the way I felt that matt saw it


Of course, the engineers who designed those pieces in the first place may well consider his various component swaps, copper basket handles, etc. to be the proverbial mustache....

And one can infer that your reference to his mods as "art work" means that you think it simply has aesthetic value, and no functional (or possibly deleterious functional) value. Why else refer to it in such terms?


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## jimmy2345

bose301s said:


> No, I did not say that it was but am suggesting that it may be. Again, human auditory memory is on the order of minutes, not days or even hours, so the fact that your friend heard it days later makes his judgement pretty much null.
> 
> As for amps, all _should_ sound the same, all an amp is supposed to do is be a gain device, it is not supposed to add any characteristics of its own to the sound, if it does it is no longer a pure gain device. In practice I know this isn't true as different design methodologies affect the sound via distortion etc.
> 
> I'm not trying to be negative anymore, but psychoacoustics is a very powerful thing and so is the placebo effect, on a direct, double blind, level matched comparison things may or may not come out differently.


Have you and ChrisB got married yet? You two surely can finish each others sentences. Now all you have to do is do a total 180 in your opinions and we won't be able to tell you apart.


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## ChrisB

jimmy2345 said:


> Have you and ChrisB got married yet? You two surely can finish each others sentences. Now all you have to do is do a total 180 in your opinions and we won't be able to tell you apart.


Why do you feel the need to constantly bring my name up? Oh, I get it, it is so I can negative rep your posts. Keep it up and I'll do the same!


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## Matt R

Man, that guy doesnt like my temporary heatsink for the ms8. I thought that was a cool idea, looks like the st louis arch. Had to heatsink it somehow while it was on the bench taken apart, being worked on. 

He thinks my cars are all trailer queens, which none of them are. (The mustang did not beat the nascar btw). 

He thinks i'm scared to have anything tested, never said that. There are several levels of modification with different results, no question there. Not real sure about the testing methods and the reliability of it. Not questioning Aarons efforts but it did seem there was someone that had a higher resolution system that saw more detail. All that being said, measurements dont tell you how something sounds. I have a 30 watt class A tube amp that kills the sound of any of my solid state amps. If you only considered distortion, noise and dynamic range of it in comparison to the solid state amps you would never think it would sound better. So to reiterate what I already said, measurements dont tell you how music sounds to our ears. With enough information we can get some ideas about how something will sound but measurements arent music. Here is a good article by the grandfather of audio that can maybe shed some light on measurements, ect. http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/distortion_feedback.pdf

It really seems like there is a real lack of people trying to educate each other on what does and doesnt work and the ins and outs of audio. Chad could have easily raised specific questions about reliability and shared his personal experiences. I might have learned something that could have bettered my skills. Thats not what happened, he made insulting comments instead. There have been several people that have mentored me and I have learned so much from them in the past and hopefully in the future too. If Chad is the pro audio engineer that he leeds people to believe, he could be much more helpfull and make good use of his knowledge. Maybe he could start with his personal recomendations for SM capsfor audio coupling, thats an easy one.

I also dont think pulling my pics was childish at all. Some DICK photo shoped some ugly **** on my solder joints trying to make my work look bad. Thats what i call childish. 

I wouldn't mind my mods being tested at all. I would like to know what piece it is so I know what level of modification the unit has. I wouldnt expect a simple opamp mod to measure too much differently than a stock unit. I would expect a fully moded unit with extensive power supply noise reduction, and bypassing of irrelivent components to measure differently. Still, that doesnt tell us how it sounds. 

I really wish there was a car audio forum where people were cool and wanted to help each other better the sound of their systems. Again, i've had a couple great mentors and I try to pay it forward, mostly in the competition world. It really discourages me to see such negativity and I really dont think this is the right place for good audio discusion. Thats too bad!

Matt


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## chad

Matt R said:


> It really seems like there is a real lack of people trying to educate each other on what does and doesnt work and the ins and outs of audio. Chad could have easily raised specific questions about reliability and shared his personal experiences. I might have learned something that could have bettered my skills. Thats not what happened, he made insulting comments instead. There have been several people that have mentored me and I have learned so much from them in the past and hopefully in the future too. If Chad is the pro audio engineer that he leeds people to believe, he could be much more helpfull and make good use of his knowledge. Maybe he could start with his personal recomendations for SM capsfor audio coupling, thats an easy one.
> 
> 
> 
> Matt


I don't feel that I was all that insulting, to be honest.. I was not Photoshopping chit... I used the term "blob job" which honestly is pretty much an industry term, somewhat derogatory but used very often as a replacement for tacking a joint.. Sorry if that offended. I stand by my laurels that I really could care less about any "world championships" it's really not a testament of a modification inany way, it's more of a testament to the talent of the tuner, installer, and the enthusiast.... not a brand of op-amp or bypass cap.


That being said, and honestly, I admitted to being abrasive, always have, not gonna sugar coat it, we could have gone on about different SMT devices, etc. But IMHO it was going to drive things further down the tubes with those questioning the purpose of modding anyway.

I started typing something this morning and just cut bait realizing that even a technical post agreeing or not agreeing at this point gives others food for destruction.

I'll put together some information and we should just probably start another thread with a hair trigger on a lock button if need be. I'm not going to say we are going to agree on everything, but that's what modding is all about right? We will just have to agree to disagree at some junctures.

I'll be out this weekend, not thinking about audio  We can try to get started soon. Have a good weekend

Chad


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## bose301s

Matt R said:


> Man, that guy doesnt like my temporary heatsink for the ms8. I thought that was a cool idea, looks like the st louis arch. Had to heatsink it somehow while it was on the bench taken apart, being worked on.
> 
> He thinks my cars are all trailer queens, which none of them are. (The mustang did not beat the nascar btw).
> 
> He thinks i'm scared to have anything tested, never said that. There are several levels of modification with different results, no question there. Not real sure about the testing methods and the reliability of it. Not questioning Aarons efforts but it did seem there was someone that had a higher resolution system that saw more detail. All that being said, measurements dont tell you how something sounds. I have a 30 watt class A tube amp that kills the sound of any of my solid state amps. If you only considered distortion, noise and dynamic range of it in comparison to the solid state amps you would never think it would sound better. So to reiterate what I already said, measurements dont tell you how music sounds to our ears. With enough information we can get some ideas about how something will sound but measurements arent music. Here is a good article by the grandfather of audio that can maybe shed some light on measurements, ect. http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/distortion_feedback.pdf
> 
> It really seems like there is a real lack of people trying to educate each other on what does and doesnt work and the ins and outs of audio. Chad could have easily raised specific questions about reliability and shared his personal experiences. I might have learned something that could have bettered my skills. Thats not what happened, he made insulting comments instead. There have been several people that have mentored me and I have learned so much from them in the past and hopefully in the future too. If Chad is the pro audio engineer that he leeds people to believe, he could be much more helpfull and make good use of his knowledge. Maybe he could start with his personal recomendations for SM capsfor audio coupling, thats an easy one.
> 
> I also dont think pulling my pics was childish at all. Some DICK photo shoped some ugly **** on my solder joints trying to make my work look bad. Thats what i call childish.
> 
> I wouldn't mind my mods being tested at all. I would like to know what piece it is so I know what level of modification the unit has. I wouldnt expect a simple opamp mod to measure too much differently than a stock unit. I would expect a fully moded unit with extensive power supply noise reduction, and bypassing of irrelivent components to measure differently. Still, that doesnt tell us how it sounds.
> 
> I really wish there was a car audio forum where people were cool and wanted to help each other better the sound of their systems. Again, i've had a couple great mentors and I try to pay it forward, mostly in the competition world. It really discourages me to see such negativity and I really dont think this is the right place for good audio discusion. Thats too bad!
> 
> Matt


The problem to me is that an amp should be a gain device only, it's really that simple. It should not add any coloration of it's own to the sound, if it does it is a bad amp. In that regard the solid state amp you wre talking about IS better than the tube amp. However, some people like added distortion or warmth that is given by a higher second order and other even order distortion devices, like your tube amp. The problem is I would prefer to add and adjust the sound to my liking using DSP, drivers and driver aiming as opposed to an amp adding something to the sound that I have no way of changing.

I do want to see one of your mods measured, it would be very interesting to see what changes from stock to modded.


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## dodgerblue

*Re: moded Bit One - RANT*

I find it bothersome that Ziggy spent the time-effort to place that photoshop pic up defacing someones work regaurdless of what the intent was.

It is also unfortunate Chad chose to go a similar route and made the comments he did . The manner and the timing of them did not offer anything other than a negative impact on the thread and possible insult of the thread starter.It could have been handled in a manner that had a positive impact on Matt , Chad and the rest reading the thread.

IMO both of them made a decision to post what they did - both Lacked any Basic level of respect for thread starter , the time and effort that was involved in the project or the time to share it with us.

This isnt the old Diyma guys -there is no longer the mass creative energy or as many willing to spend the time share it. I enjoy seeing what Matt is doing and appreciate the willingness , effort and balls to share it .

We are better than this guys --

Happy Friday !


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## Matt R

chad said:


> I don't feel that I was all that insulting, to be honest.. I was not Photoshopping chit... I used the term "blob job" which honestly is pretty much an industry term, somewhat derogatory but used very often as a replacement for tacking a joint.. Sorry if that offended. I stand by my laurels that I really could care less about any "world championships" it's really not a testament of a modification inany way, it's more of a testament to the talent of the tuner, installer, and the enthusiast.... not a brand of op-amp or bypass cap.
> 
> 
> That being said, and honestly, I admitted to being abrasive, always have, not gonna sugar coat it, we could have gone on about different SMT devices, etc. But IMHO it was going to drive things further down the tubes with those questioning the purpose of modding anyway.
> 
> I started typing something this morning and just cut bait realizing that even a technical post agreeing or not agreeing at this point gives others food for destruction.
> 
> I'll put together some information and we should just probably start another thread with a hair trigger on a lock button if need be. I'm not going to say we are going to agree on everything, but that's what modding is all about right? We will just have to agree to disagree at some junctures.
> 
> I'll be out this weekend, not thinking about audio  We can try to get started soon. Have a good weekend
> 
> Chad


I wasnt offended by the blob comment. I use that term myself, not always in a bad way though. I was refering to the "not road worthy maybe shelf worthy" comment. I am of the school of, if you dont have anything constructive to say, then dont say anything. IMO you had no business posting in my thread unless you had something to say that other members might find helpfull in their quest for knowledge. My reference to world championships is in regards to my equipment sounding good and standing the test of time. 

Several members on this forum have asked me to post more of my work and to share my findings with the community. I just dont have the time or effort to put into debating if a bent leg, through hole cap, soldered and glued to a surface mount pad is sufficient enough to last ??? how long. I have about 5-6 years worth of components staying put for now. I probobly wont be sharing too much more of my findings if this is what the outcome will be.


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## Matt R

Oh, sorry, i've been concentrating on the negative, hard not to.

Thanks to all the people that supported me in this thread and continue to support what I do. I will try to keep up my search for better sound and how to make it. I will also continue to try to be the ambassador that Mic said I was in the SQ competition world. I just really dont have time to spend chattin about glueing components and middle fingers, I need to get back to work on all these jobs piled up.

I'm out!!! Matt


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## Mic10is

Matt R said:


> Oh, sorry, i've been concentrating on the negative, hard not to.
> 
> Thanks to all the people that supported me in this thread and continue to support what I do. I will try to keep up my search for better sound and how to make it. I will also continue to try to be the ambassador that Mic said I was in the SQ competition world. I just really dont have time to spend chattin about glueing components and middle fingers, I need to get back to work on all these jobs piled up.
> 
> I'm out!!! Matt


Yes please get back to work...I know you have a couple Genesis amps awaiting your love and attention and another to follow---summary---Get off the damn computer ya hippie!!!


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## SouthSyde

Matt R said:


> Oh, sorry, i've been concentrating on the negative, hard not to.
> 
> Thanks to all the people that supported me in this thread and continue to support what I do. I will try to keep up my search for better sound and how to make it. I will also continue to try to be the ambassador that Mic said I was in the SQ competition world. I just really dont have time to spend chattin about glueing components and middle fingers, I need to get back to work on all these jobs piled up.
> 
> I'm out!!! Matt


Yess Matt, thank you for your contribution to the forum.. Lord knows I have learned so much from you!


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## wheelieking71

Matt R said:


> I wont share



BUMMER! thanks guys.


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## Melodic Acoustic

All I have to say is Mic10 is right, get back to work sir, as there is a RPM88 that needs some love also. And I have loved every peace Matt has done for me and a few of mine was the ginnie pigs and I was glad to have them be. Rock on sir and rock on!!!!


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## SLICKDSG

wheelieking71 said:


> BUMMER! thanks guys.


.........


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## Genxx

chefhow said:


> It was beaten by Mark Eldgridges Nascar, which is a hand built trailer car.



Just to clear this up. I pulled the car in the trailer to MECA finals with my comp. truck. The car has been on several race tracks and road courses at race track speeds. It also gets driven around town ect. and is street legal. So yes the car gets trailed to shows but also gets driven hard as well.

Matt's Murano sounded amazing as MECA finals though.


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## chefhow

Genxx said:


> Just to clear this up. I pulled the car in the trailer to MECA finals with my comp. truck. The car has been on several race tracks and road courses at race track speeds. It also gets driven around town ect. and is street legal. So yes the car gets trailed to shows but also gets driven hard as well.
> 
> Matt's Murano sounded amazing as MECA finals though.


No disrespect to you, Mark or his car. It was a privaledge to be able to listen to it at finals and finally meet Mark after reading about his cars for years. 

My point was the somebody, DS-21, has stated World Champion Cars are trailer queens, Matts cars in particular, and I was stating that they arent and Marks car was the top car at Finals with Matt D's car coming in second. The fact that Marks car is a car that is street legal and driven around further proves my point. Thanks


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## thehatedguy

Matt, let the haters hate.


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## wheelieking71

my opinion is this whole thread turned to **** because people just needed to keep thier mouths shut. constructive criticism is one thing. but being a dick is a totally differnt thing. the guy (MattR) is after something better! thats the bottom line. thats the spirit of "DIY"! (at least it used to be, its just a lame piss-hole now) he is basically removing the restraints put on the original design team, of whatever product he happens to be working on, by the bean counters that say "you need to cut costs before this goes to market". is it necessary for the avarage listener? hell no! but he is not doing this service for the avarage listener. rather than criticize his work, sit back, look at it, and realize just how small of a package he is trying to fit his upgrades into. form follows function! and i personally think he does a damn good job. with the real world gear out there, IN USE, without fail, to back up his track record of zero failures. so what if it doesnt look like it was soldered by a machine. Chad in particular! dude, up untill now i have agreed with you on just about everything i have ever seen you type. till now. not impressed with your first couple posts in this thread. (although you did compose yourself) and everybody else who was a dick, if you dont agree, shut up. so what. dont send your gear to Matt. its that simple. there is nothing here to argue about. again, at least he is trying to make improvements, instead if just accepting the gear for what it is, along with its limitations. his mods may only be 1-cent if a complete custom installation equals 1-dollar. but if you only have 99-pennies, you dont have a dollar. its a cascading effect, and anybody who is not willing to put as much effort into the rest of the system as Matt puts into his mods would probably be better off saving thier money for better drivers, or paying somebody who knows what they are doing to tune what they have. but for those that want to go ALL-OUT, no holds barred. i think Matt provides an excellent serivice! is it the prettiest work ever? no. is it as good as it can be given the limitations of fitting the mods into the given chassis. i would like to see somebody do a better job.

should i have "shut-up" as i mentioned i thought alot of people should have done, and not typed this. maybe. but to see people come in here and spout off "looks like ****", and "waste of time and money", and "beyond the threshold of human hearing bla-bla-bla ********!" is just rude, and the reason nobody shares anything anymore. i commend Matt for doing what he does. and before i get accused of being some kind of suck-up, or anything childish like that. i dont know Matt. im sure i will never meet him. and there is a good chance i wont need his services any time soon. my rant is simply stating that the spirit of "DIY" is gone, and part of the reason why lies at the beggining of this thread. bunch of immature punks with big fat ass heads. "DIY" is about sharing knowledge, and techiques. in a positive and scientific manner. not a bunch of immature clicky ********.

i for one hope you keep sharing Matt! im here to learn, and if people like you dont show people like me things of a technical nature. im not learning anything! just think of all the fabrication techniques and ideas that happen behind the scenes we all miss out on if you guys really pissed him off and he is done. the build thread for his murano is freakin unbelievable! you just cant find info like that every day. 

RANT OFF. i was just really disappointed at the way this thread went.


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## DS-21

cajunner said:


> anyone that tries to poo-poo or make fun of what Matt's doing because they *think* the improvements are unremarkable, (re-mark, get it?) is hurting the pioneering spirit that makes this place what it is.


How so? A big part of the "pioneering spirit" was _efficient resource allocation._

Nobody's yet shown that the mods in fact do a goddamned thing except void warranties (and cost money). And given that, in far more revealing conditions than any effing car stereo situation can offer, a $60 Samsung DVD player was indistinguishable from a $3000+ Meridian CD player, excuse me and other people with, you know, common sense, for simply not giving a **** about "mods" to already transparent boxes.


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## Matt R

DS-21 said:


> How so? A big part of the "pioneering spirit" was _efficient resource allocation._
> 
> Nobody's yet shown that the mods in fact do a goddamned thing except void warranties (and cost money). And given that, in far more revealing conditions than any effing car stereo situation can offer, a $60 Samsung DVD player was indistinguishable from a $3000+ Meridian CD player, excuse me and other people with, you know, common sense, for simply not giving a **** about "mods" to already transparent boxes.


If you cant hear a difference between a $60 cd player and a Highend $3000 player, you might be in the wrong business or hobby. Maybe you have **** for speakers or amps or possibly ears. Every home CD player i've ever had sounds different than the other. Most highend car cd players sound different than each other to me. 

I really dont think there is anything, anyone on this forum can say that will convince your or some of the others that any one piece sounds better than anything else. I like the analogy of never tasting a good burger, nice one. It sounds to me like you dont have too much experience with highend car or home audio listening. It seems all you are wanting to see is measurements. Going off of what you said earlier, you should audition a highend tube amp system and then a cheap home SS reciever. I bet distortion, damping factor, slew rate all measure better on the ss amp and if it sounds better to you, you probobly should just quit this game and keep uploading your compressed audio on to your ipod. I really think you dont have anything good to say and you should really just shut up. Maybe better yet, show us all how to do things better!!!!


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## Matt R

Oh, and for the record, I did ask Aaron (bikinpunk) to close this thread about 2 pages ago when I decided to pull my pics. Maybe he thinks fighting is good for diy audio???

As soon as the ******** drama started, I knew this wouldnt be good for anyone. Except maybe those people that are already pissed off about what their mom made them for dinner. To those good folks out there, THANK YOU! To all the assholes, **** YOU!

Matt Roberts


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## bose301s

Matt R said:


> If you cant hear a difference between a $60 cd player and a Highend $3000 player, you might be in the wrong business or hobby. Maybe you have **** for speakers or amps or possibly ears. Every home CD player i've ever had sounds different than the other. Most highend car cd players sound different than each other to me.
> 
> I really dont think there is anything, anyone on this forum can say that will convince your or some of the others that any one piece sounds better than anything else. I like the analogy of never tasting a good burger, nice one. It sounds to me like you dont have too much experience with highend car or home audio listening. It seems all you are wanting to see is measurements. Going off of what you said earlier, you should audition a highend tube amp system and then a cheap home SS reciever. I bet distortion, damping factor, slew rate all measure better on the ss amp and if it sounds better to you, you probobly should just quit this game and keep uploading your compressed audio on to your ipod. I really think you dont have anything good to say and you should really just shut up. Maybe better yet, show us all how to do things better!!!!


This post is a joke right? I mean, it has to be, no one in the world can be this dumb, can they?


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## Matt R

bose301s said:


> This post is a joke right? I mean, it has to be, no one in the world can be this dumb, can they?


Yeah Dick, its a joke! I'm glad you finally got my sense of humor.

I knew this pic would come in handy one day. ;~)


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## wheelieking71

now that put a big ole' smile on my face!!!


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