# ADVICE NEEDED SPL or SQ Subs?



## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

I'm thinking about designing some new subs for CAR AUDIO, not sure what to start the company off with SPL, Daily Driver or SQ

thanks guys...


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

i would imagine spl will appeal to the most people but i am a fan of single sub sq setups.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

Our perspective gets skewed after being on the forum so long. Most people couldn't care less about the things we like. Even the biggest forum boner is barely a blip in the "real world." I definitely wouldn't build SQ anything unless your market is a few hundred forum members. 

Make it loud, but most importantly, make it look flashy without looking trashy. That's where the real money is.


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## basshead (Sep 12, 2008)

I would like to see something along the line of my w15gti


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## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

I have just what you are looking forl, Louis....$500 hand delivered!!!!!


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

basshead said:


> I would like to see something along the line of my w15gti


I also use w15GTI's these some of the best I have used. I was thinking of using something similar....




amitaF said:


> I have just what you are looking for, Louie....$500 hand delivered!!!!!


Leave Louis alone fella


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## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

i voted for a daily driver sq 12. imo, that would be the top seller out of the choices you have posted.


btw>the w15 thing is an inside joke[we are neighbors] apologies for diverting from the topic


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

If you can develop a driver that has the JBL distortion specs, with more linear throw and has an actual power capacity 1-2 kw for daily drivers that want their cars to be loud and sound good. 

Lots of subs out there. There will have to be something to set this apart from all the DD,DC,Fi,Sundown, IA, etc... Find a way to get the teen,early twenty-something crowd to take notice while simultaneously have the engineering and specs make the old crown from here legitimatize the brand as well . That is what will make a new woofer brand successful.


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

As already said, the "SQ" market is pretty specific. I also think the "pure SPL" market is too.

I despise the term "daily driver" for subs, but IMO that's the biggest non-big-box-buyer market. I equally loathe "SQL" though it seems to be the trend today. 

And with a more high-powered offering, you'll get more people being stupid and blowing them so you can have repeat business  Having re-cones available is the icing.

Of course, we'd rather see some SQ subs...but I assume you're in it to make money...which is fine


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

if i buy another sub it will either be a shiva 12" or a AE AV 15X so i voted SQ 15 but it will probably be hard to top those 2 subs


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

Cruzer said:


> if i buy another sub it will either be a shiva 12" or a AE AV 15X so i voted SQ 15 but it will probably be hard to top those 2 subs


Thanks for the VOTE...

I used a Shiva 12" and also used a AE 15"

that is why I'm designing my own subs.... they are great subs just wanna give others better product for good price ( if it all works out )


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

DAT said:


> Thanks for the VOTE...
> 
> I used a Shiva 12" and also used a AE 15"
> 
> that is why I'm designing my own subs.... they are great subs just wanna give others better product for good price ( if it all works out )


if u can match it for less money, or surpass it for a little more im sure u would get some decent buyers.


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## stills (Apr 13, 2008)

ryan s said:


> And with a more high-powered offering, you'll get more people being stupid and blowing them so you can have repeat business  Having re-cones available is the icing.
> 
> Of course, we'd rather see some SQ subs...but I assume you're in it to make money...which is fine





i think this is pretty sound logic. be the henry ford of recones.


fwiw i went sq 10 cause that's what i like.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

What problem are you solving by bringing out a new sub line?


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

I'm not quite sure how to answer this, but it would seem logical to appeal to the lowest common denominator first & foremost. Start with a relatively high powered 10" or 12" that can perform well in a variety of encloses.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

From a business perspective what he said. ^^^^^^ Being purely selfish, an SQ based 12-15" sub that can be used in an IB configuration and take a decent amount of power.


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## Allan74 (Jun 17, 2010)

chefhow said:


> SQ based....IB configuration....decent amount of power.


I'll take 2.....and a Pink Unicorn 










_(although I voted SQ 12)....._


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## Blister64 (Jun 13, 2010)

Chaos said:


> I'm not quite sure how to answer this, but it would seem logical to appeal to the lowest common denominator first & foremost. Start with a relatively high powered 10" or 12" that can perform well in a variety of encloses.


I agree with Chaos... I personally voted for a 10" SQ sub, and am running 2 JL Audio 10W6v2's in my truck. Look at what the majority of people are running today: 10's and 12's. While 15's definitely have their place in the market, I don't think that you would have the sales that you would with the smaller subs. I wouldn't get one just because of space. I'd rather have 1-3 smaller woofers with my situation than to get a woofer as large as that. I don't want to start a debate, but I also prefer the sound of smaller woofers as well (I listen to mainly rock). If you could give the best of both worlds, having great SQ while still having the ability to get loud, that would be the best IMHO. This is the reason I only get JL Audio subs, I love them! Once again, my opinion. 

As far as the comment about being "flashy" looking when you make your product, I wouldn't. Make it clean looking. Make a nice looking logo to place on the front, don't use flashy or bright colors, and please, PLEASE, don't put chrome flames on the magnet :laugh:. Good luck with what you decide to do and with sales!


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## dubbreak (May 9, 2008)

I voted bad idea in the current market. What you need in the sea of subwoofers is something to make you stand apart and get noticed. Good quality will keep repeat and word of mouth going, but you need something to get people to jump in the first place.

I wonder if the funky pup brand name is still TM'd and if you could buy it? :laugh: There's definitely a market for nostalgia and also for ironic (how big though is the question). Regardless of which direction you go you'll have to do some real market research on how big the target market is $ wise, and what % of that market you'll be able to grab. Unless you are creating an entirely new market with a new product (unlikely in subs), you'll just be trying to grab a piece of the already existing (and crowded) pie.

As far as actual product I'd start with a 12" that works sealed or ported (mid qts), that is efficient and can handle a decent amount of power (say 500-750W rms). A 13" inch would be cool too. Why 12? It's a good starting point. You'll be able to use the same motor for a 10 or 15 (with the trade-off the 10 will be less efficient and the 15 will need a bigger box). Make sure your magnet isn't too big (or go neo) and you'll be able to scale down to an 8".

More options for IB would be cool, but I think it's a pretty limited market. A sub that's good for IB isn't going to be great for much else.


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## quakerroatmeal (Aug 21, 2008)

What's your own preference? SQ is such a vague term.


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

quakerroatmeal said:


> What's your own preference? SQ is such a vague term.


Well didn't really know what to list as the title in the polls. I can tell you I have used most all overseas and US made subs. Some of the them great others suck.

I have have had alot of pm's on this and most want a sub that can Sound good , take up to 1000w rms. play in vented,sealed or IB. The only real sub I know that can do this is the JBL WGTI's which I currently use. Also most wanted dual 2's or dual 4's...

The only problem with the WGTi's right now is that they only come Dual 6 ohm.

Thanks for the questions...


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

Do you have an intended price point? Even a ballpark? Or will you decide on that later down the road?

I voted "12" FOR DAILY DRIVER SQ 1000W +", though I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I want a respectable SQ sub that gets loud. Or even an SPL sub that sounds relatively musical. Just not pure SQ or pure SPL, neither one particularly appeals to me in my own vehicles. Half way in between. And I think that attitude represents a significant slice of the audio community.

I'll be happy if it handles a real-world 750 to 1000 watts RMS. Again, a significant chunk of the audio community runs less than 1000 watts RMS, even some bassheads. I would generally not care to have power handling above 1000 watts RMS. This may not always be the case, but that seems to be about the line where you start sacrificing quite a bit of efficiency to handle the power.

I voted for the 12" because having sold many subwoofers at retail, I can say it's the 12s that fly off the shelf. They are a convenient size, and can move enough air to make most people smile. Even when I discount the 15s, most people don't have room for them. And the people who buy 8s and 10s often do so because they are concerned about mounting depth but are too cheap to get shallow-mounts. All of that is just my opinion, but backed by at least a bit of experience.

One question, why would people expect a sub will to be good in sealed, vented, AND IB? It seems counter-intuitive to bump Qts up high enough for IB, and then to expect a reasonable enclosure size and response curves from sealed or vented.

EDIT: How about Vas around 2 to 3 CF, Fs around 22 to 28 Hz, Qts between 0.3 and 0.5, efficiency of 87 dB or above, true Xmax of 12 to 18 mm, and power handling of 1000 watts RMS on the nose? I would _love_ working with that sub! I guess that's why I'm still rocking my old Xtant (doesn't "technically" take 1000 watts RMS)...


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Blister64 said:


> Make a nice looking logo to place on the front, don't use flashy or bright colors, and please, PLEASE, don't put* chrome flames *on the magnet :laugh:. Good luck with what you decide to do and with sales!


Are you dissing my wonderful Pyle 15s????


J/K, I think I should have sprayed some flat black on them, but it matters not I can't see them anymore.

I voted Daily Driver 15", because the 15s dig deep and I'm all into that. Daily because that is what most people use them for, even if you sell them under some other use. But you near need IB (which I prefer anyway) to run 15 or larger, or a way to change Q. I liked the idea of Mach5 subs; they were simple, they worked, no flash, solid and clean, good price. AE is similar it seems. Really I like the look of good hardware the most, and it seems that many popular subs do look that way. A 12 that worked well in say ~1.25cf sealed would be the average from what I see, though everyone seems to want a box that just fits the motor.


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

How hard would it be to develop WGTI recones in a dual 4 configuration? Possible market? Maybe save a bit of investment money not having to stock a basket or motor.


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

Thinking about all of the posts in the past I've read; a solid replacement for the RLi 8 would be a good idea. There must be a blue million posts of people wondering when those were going to be available again.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

what was special about the rli-8?
spl? sq?
mixture of both and the fact it fit such a small box?

~$200 per sub is pretty steep for an 8"


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> what was special about the rli-8?
> spl? sq?
> mixture of both and the fact it fit such a small box?
> 
> ~$200 per sub is pretty steep for an 8"


it handled gobs of power, sounded good, went low and put out lots of sound. Pretty much the first SPL 8 as far as I can remember hearing about. Then came the DD1508 and the Sundown offerings. I believe was TC manufactured. That whole you get what you pay for was based off this woofer. It lived up to the price.


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

cubdenno said:


> it handled gobs of power, sounded good, went low and put out lots of sound. Pretty much the first SPL 8 as far as I can remember hearing about. Then came the DD1508 and the Sundown offerings. I believe was TC manufactured. That whole you get what you pay for was based off this woofer. It lived up to the price.


Not that it isn't a good sub (I never heard one) but I think he'd only appeal to a niche market if he produced something similar.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

NPDang probably has an idea based on requests that he got


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

cubdenno said:


> it handled gobs of power, sounded good, went low and put out lots of sound. Pretty much the first SPL 8 as far as I can remember hearing about. Then came the DD1508 and the Sundown offerings. I believe was TC manufactured. That whole you get what you pay for was based off this woofer. It lived up to the price.


so does it out perform the sa-8?

ive seen lots of people ask for good 8s, but its always suggesting the sa-8 because not many wanna spend the $ for a jl 8w7.


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## CulinaryGod (Jun 5, 2008)

I'll be posting a review of the Sundown Audio SA-8 within the next couple of days. It'll be thorough and honest with a wide variety of different music types. Keep your eyes pealed. I voted SQ 10".


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## Blister64 (Jun 13, 2010)

sqshoestring said:


> Are you dissing my wonderful Pyle 15s????


Haha nope, actually I was referring to Audiobahn subs... JK though! to each there own, as long as it sounds good! sorry for getting off topic btw...


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

TJ Mobile Audio said:


> Not that it isn't a good sub (I never heard one) but I think he'd only appeal to a niche market if he produced something similar.


Google RLi8 and see how big that "niche" is. Dollar to a doughnut SSA still has RLI's in all other sizes, yet the 8 was sold out a looooong time ago. Is there competition in the 8" market? Sure, but not nearly as competitive as the 10" and 12". 

I can't claim this as an end-all-be-all; but I'd bet they would sell well.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

danssoslow said:


> Google RLi8 and see how big that "niche" is. Dollar to a doughnut SSA still has RLI's in all other sizes, yet the 8 was sold out a looooong time ago. Is there competition in the 8" market? Sure, but not nearly as competitive as the 10" and 12".
> 
> I can't claim this as an end-all-be-all; but I'd bet they would sell well.


i would say it largely depends on how it compares vs the sa-8.

if it does not do any better, its not worth spending the extra cash for it.

if it does better than the sa-8, it will deff become top selling 8


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

Cruzer said:


> i would say it largely depends on how it compares vs the sa-8.
> 
> if it does not do any better, its not worth spending the extra cash for it.
> 
> if it does better than the sa-8, it will deff become top selling 8


I can't wholly agree with what you are saying due to the fact that "better" is so subjective; but I figure that could also work in his favor, depending on who is doing the judging.
Comparable would put him well into the ballpark. Just having your name associated with a well known brand can make you internet gold (whatever that may mean). 
I visit a lot of non-audio based forums that have audio subforums. When people come searching for a sub, over half will name an internet boutique sub company; and a lot of those posters will name multiples of those same internet boutique sub companies. Put out a comparable product, with bonus points for less money, and your name would be thrown into the mix with the rest of them.
Have a internet juggernaut like Steve Meade to use your wares, and you'll be living the champagne life with caviar dreams!


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

danssoslow said:


> I can't wholly agree with what you are saying due to the fact that "better" is so subjective; but I figure that could also work in his favor, depending on who is doing the judging.
> Comparable would put him well into the ballpark. Just having your name associated with a well known brand can make you internet gold (whatever that may mean).
> I visit a lot of non-audio based forums that have audio subforums. When people come searching for a sub, over half will name an internet boutique sub company; and a lot of those posters will name multiples of those same internet boutique sub companies. Put out a comparable product, with bonus points for less money, and your name would be thrown into the mix with the rest of them.
> Have a internet juggernaut like Steve Meade to use your wares, and you'll be living the champagne life with caviar dreams!


Agreed. The only problem is, Steve Meade eats 8" subs for breakfast. He'd probably just put four in each door as mids...


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

TJ Mobile Audio said:


> Agreed. The only problem is, Steve Meade eats 8" subs for breakfast. He'd probably just put four in each door as mids...


You could dupe half of the internet by finding a guy named Steve Mead to do the same thing.


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

danssoslow said:


> You could dupe half of the internet by finding a guy named Steve Mead to do the same thing.


Dude, I heard Steve Meade swapped the four eighteens from his Tahoe for 64 eights!

(Everybody's doing it!)


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

All joking aside, I honestly believe that anyone trying to get into this business will be made or broken 100% by internet response. 

Not to downplay the time, effort, and money invested in R&D and the opportunities lost or found in that aspect of starting a speaker business; but it appears to me that having a quality product built to one's specifications isn't that hard to achieve. 
i.e., building a solid competitor couldn't be that hard.

In the end, finding the right place to set up a subforum for the masses to get the scoop will be key to a successful small speaker company.
All of them are DEFINITELY doin' it!


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Cruzer said:


> so does it out perform the sa-8?
> 
> ive seen lots of people ask for good 8s, but its always suggesting the sa-8 because not many wanna spend the $ for a jl 8w7.


Not sure if it outperforms the SA-8 but it works flawlessly in sealed. (Jacob recommends ported for the SA-8). 

As already pointed out, it came out when people needed similar performance to the 8w7 in a not too expensive package. 
The RL-i8 was too expensive for some? TC Sounds sold the TC 1000 8" direct and if I remember correctly, went crazy low like $85 or something. 

I have 2 x Audiopulse Epic 8" which is said to be an upgraded RL-i8 and even though I'm not using them anymore, I think that I will not part with them. 

Kelvin


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

A 12 inch for daily driving somewhere b'tween a DD 9512G and an IDMAX for sound and thump with 2 inch peak-to-peak travel.

FS - 28 Hz

frequency response 25 Hz - 125 Hz

sealed .85 cu ft

ported 2.2 cu ft


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## dubbreak (May 9, 2008)

Neo motor! With appropriate marketing you should be able to get around the "DURR, BEE GAH EES BET TAAHH" mentality. Right now there are very few neo subs on the market and even less affordable ones (Mach5 is supposedly launching one soon).

There is definitely a market. Smaller motor means less displaced space, ergo smaller box. Smaller motor also means lighter. There are plenty of people concerned with weight in their vehicle, but don't want to settle for a low power sub just because it's lighter. Combine that with a light, but strong basket and a decent price and I think you'd have a winner.


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

dubbreak said:


> Neo motor! With appropriate marketing you should be able to get around the "DURR, BEE GAH EES BET TAAHH" mentality.


But wait, ceteris paribus, bee-gah rly ees bet-taahh, right? It's the _ceteris paribus_ part people forget when they say that. Good luck getting around the fact that big motors are sexy, even if they aren't better. 

I guess you can't sell to everyone...



dubbreak said:


> There is definitely a market. Smaller motor means less displaced space, ergo smaller box. Smaller motor also means lighter. There are plenty of people concerned with weight in their vehicle, but don't want to settle for a low power sub just because it's lighter. Combine that with a light, but strong basket and a decent price and I think you'd have a winner.


Competition for the Critical Mass UL12, anyone?


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

You should be able to buy "searched" statistics from an ebay or google or ???

People vote for what they need, and we might not be the best sample audience. Anyway, I voted for 12" DD. Something like an IDQ. To me DD means, "I want to keep my trunk and be loud for those certain songs".

A theory to mull over:
The lesser known brand subwoofers are becoming more popular; considering their price and quality I can see why. Shops will increasingly become a major consumers of these brands. I could see this becoming an aggressive opening in the mass-market equipment that blankets most stores.

The internet is good for sales if you have an certain level of credibility.


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## Volenti (Feb 17, 2010)

I second (third?) the high performance light weight 12'' neo motor option, bit tired of 50lb monsters.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Volenti said:


> I second (third?) the high performance light weight 12'' neo motor option, bit tired of 50lb monsters.


Good point, how about a large (optional) carbon fiber dynamic balance enhancement device (a motor cover) fortified with high viscosity dampening material (um, glued together with silicone/foam/urethane/whatever) for the ultimate neo powered SQ? Don't forget the aerodymanic enhancing properties that would be available with the proper contouring of the outer sections of it, as well as maximum possible basket integration and support. Dang, maybe I could do marketing.....anyway the rest of us can just buy the sub alone.


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## dubbreak (May 9, 2008)

sqshoestring said:


> Good point, how about a large (optional) carbon fiber dynamic balance enhancement device (a motor cover) fortified with high viscosity dampening material (um, glued together with silicone/foam/urethane/whatever) for the ultimate neo powered SQ? Don't forget the aerodymanic enhancing properties that would be available with the proper contouring of the outer sections of it, as well as maximum possible basket integration and support. Dang, maybe I could do marketing.....anyway the rest of us can just buy the sub alone.


Hahaha.. like the lowend RF subs that had the [email protected] plastic motor cover that made it look way bigger (it stuck via a minimal amount of ferrous metal that clung to the magnet). I had a p1 like that. I gave the sub to my sister and threw the cover where it belonged (in the garbage).

I don't remember if they had any marketing mumbo jumbo to go with or not. There was definitely no value in having it there.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

dubbreak said:


> Neo motor! With appropriate marketing you should be able to get around the "DURR, BEE GAH EES BET TAAHH" mentality. Right now there are very few neo subs on the market and even less affordable ones (Mach5 is supposedly launching one soon).
> 
> There is definitely a market. Smaller motor means less displaced space, ergo smaller box. Smaller motor also means lighter. There are plenty of people concerned with weight in their vehicle, but don't want to settle for a low power sub just because it's lighter. Combine that with a light, but strong basket and a decent price and I think you'd have a winner.


And please make the Neo motor large in diameter and not deeeeeeeeeeep. So that if it's optimized for IB, it can be the very first high powered shallow IB subwoofer  

Kelvin


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## dubbreak (May 9, 2008)

subwoofery said:


> And please make the Neo motor large in diameter and not deeeeeeeeeeep. So that if it's optimized for IB, it can be the very first high powered shallow IB subwoofer
> 
> Kelvin


It someone created such a sub, it would have to have the name of a mythical beast.

Something like the chupacabra, manananggal or pukwudgie. Make it 15" and call it the yeti.. something like that..


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## FLAstrongman (Sep 22, 2010)

I know in FL, spl is the way to go if you want to sell a sub.


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## ghostmechanic (Mar 2, 2009)

I'd like to see the 12" Cerwin Vega Stroker reborn with the massive new NEO motor that TC Sounds just released they're working on with a 10" stiff double spider setup & 3" of one way throw that sounds completely musical being driven by a 5k watt amp.

Make it so


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## IXspeed (Sep 18, 2010)

Personally, I want to see a SQ-oriented 8" driver that's at least 90dB 1w/1m @ 4 Ohms.


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## CulinaryGod (Jun 5, 2008)

I couldn't agree more with the above post. SQ oriented 8" with good sensitivity.


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## dubbreak (May 9, 2008)

CulinaryGod said:


> I couldn't agree more with the above post. SQ oriented 8" with good sensitivity.


Only problem is an efficient sq oriented 8" would be a mid not a sub.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

IXspeed said:


> Personally, I want to see a SQ-oriented 8" driver that's at least 90dB 1w/1m @ 4 Ohms.


I'd rather have an 8" driver with a sensitivity no higher than 87dB 1w/1m or else it will only fit in a big box. I'd rather have an 8" that fits in 0.3 to 0.5cuft. 
I feel that 87dB is actually a bit high already  

Kelvin


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

IXspeed said:


> Personally, I want to see a SQ-oriented 8" driver that's at least 90dB 1w/1m @ 4 Ohms.





CulinaryGod said:


> I couldn't agree more with the above post. SQ oriented 8" with good sensitivity.


Okay, with that little cone area, you _need_ a respectable Xmax for the sub to have any authority on low notes at all. Generally speaking, long Xmax = long coil = extra moving mass = lower efficiency. So if you actually got what you were asking, it would have less than adequate low-end extension.



dubbreak said:


> Only problem is an efficient sq oriented 8" would be a mid not a sub.


Exactly my point.

How about an 8" that has a 25mm Xmax, 82 dB efficiency, Fs of 18 Hz, and 2000 watts RMS power handling?



All joking aside, there are a lot of compromises that must be made for an 8" sub to do it's job in a car. I think there would have to be a lot of money in R&D to actually hit the nail on the head building an 8" car audio subwoofer from scratch. I'd build the 8" later for that reason. Just my $.02, regardless of what you pick, I'm excited to see what you come up with.


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## ghostmechanic (Mar 2, 2009)

dubbreak said:


> Only problem is an efficient sq oriented 8" would be a mid not a sub.


Exactly. That's the reason the Sundown E8 was so horribly inefficient. The coil is huge & heavy & the cone is thick & heavy.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

For my own needs:

-15" cone
-shallow, lightweight, neo motor with 20-25mm X-max
-selectable Qts (like the AA Atlas) for small sealed & ported, along with IB.
-power handling around 500 watts with decent SPL (91db)
-low inductance motor

For the general public:

-12" cone
-keep everything else above the same
-provide scientific literature to educate the masses


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## IXspeed (Sep 18, 2010)

dubbreak said:


> Only problem is an efficient sq oriented 8" would be a mid not a sub.


That's a valid point. In an automotive application, at least mine, I'd be happy with solid (in-cabin) extension down to ~40-50Hz. It's not a subwoofer in the purest sense, but it's what I need for a musically satisfying setup in this car. I posted the specs as an example, Clearly, the numbers alone aren't indicate of anything without a specified set of constraints. The point was, it would be nice to have some sensitive drivers to work with. Hope that made sense.


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## n2caraudio (Sep 22, 2010)

unless you can come up a new idea that solves a problem, the way to get your subs selling IMHO.
Simple, clean quality subs.
Customer Service, Customer Service, Customer Service.
Over build em.
Middle price point, not cheap but not too expensive

There are a couple of companies doing this now with great success and it is duplicatable.


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## DT053 (Mar 23, 2007)

Dave, if you do decide to make/design your own subs, let me know if you need some Klippel measurements.

Always happy to help out.

dT


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

An 8" with any low-end extension that doesn't require the box of a 12" woofer will have a very low sensitivity. Hoffman's Iron Law.... from sensitivity, box size, and low-end you can pick two.

Obviously if someone wants an 8" woofer they want a small box and they also want good low-end extension... so sensitivity goes down naturally.

As for the SA-8 it's very high motor force does lend it to a vented box much more than a sealed box.

For the record... sensitivity does not equal efficiency on a subwoofer -- sensitivity is a 1000 Hz measurement. If you have two subs... one with an 83 dB sensitivity and one with an 89 dB sensitivity... chances are the one with 83 dB will be LOUDER at, say, 35 Hz than the 87 dB woofer even at equal power assuming the same alignment.

Also -- in my SPL testing... my Nightshade v.2 woofer is about 2 dB down on sensitivity from my Z v.2 woofer -- guess how they stack up on SPL per watt even at 53 Hz in my SPL box ? Almost identical per watt.


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

To the OP... if you are designing for the forums... pick a niche and push it hard.

If you are designing for the masses... make it versatile.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

If we make a larger sub sealed into a very small box, if we fill the box with Helium will it play lower?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

sqshoestring said:


> If we make a larger sub sealed into a very small box, if we fill the box with Helium will it play lower?


Helium? Come on... Think about it for a sec. 
With Helium, 40Hz notes will sound like 1kHz ones :drummer:  

Kelvin


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

lol, helium. Try some Sulfur Hexafluoride.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

> It is not possible to combine high efficiency (especially at low frequencies) with compact enclosure size and adequate low frequency response. One can, more or less, choose only two of the three parameters when designing a speaker system. So, for example, if extended low-frequency performance and small box size are important, one must accept low efficiency.[34] This rule of thumb is sometimes called *Hoffman's Iron Law* (after J.A. Hoffman, the "H" in KLH).[35]


*Tru Dat*


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

However you can bend Hoffman's Iron Law by going IB  

Kelvin


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Helium is more compressible, therefor it would appear to be a 'larger' box? Couldn't you put a 15 in 1cf/etc?


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## FLAstrongman (Sep 22, 2010)

IDK but you should try it lol


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I was not a science major, but there must be someone here that knows about gas compressibility factors and what effects it would have. Since the He would be at atmospheric pressure, I don't know how different the compression would be. At least the box would be a little lighter lol.

I know you guys are thinking about lower tuning with a heavier gas, that is not what I was getting at, I was thinking smaller box and larger driver. That is something one could sell to the masses for sure.


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## Lysdexik (Oct 19, 2009)

I'd say a 10" SQ setup, perfect compromise


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## xanderin (Mar 26, 2008)

I think a well designed XBL^2 motor or a Neo Motor will give you an easy route to argue why your sub is better than other companies. You need a custom Basket that visibly sets your company apart. Or you could offer a CF cone and dustcap for cosmetics. I think i have owned 6 cars with 2 12"s in them and only 2 cars with other options.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

A shallow IB sub with relatively high Xmax would surely set you apart  

Kelvin


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

So Dave, what direction are YOU favoring going towards? Especially after the responses you've received.


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## nismos14 (Jun 22, 2007)

Where's the option for 10" IB subs?


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## n2caraudio (Sep 22, 2010)

Above all, make sure it has magnet so big, that UPS needs a forklift to deliver it.


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## FlexnInLa (Oct 4, 2010)

I'd like to see a 15" for daily that will handle more than 1k... but the car audio market is so small I dunno if you are wise to jump into it, especially considering how few people go beyond stock equipment, let alone BestBuy level stuff. Maybe there is more of a mark-up in car audio than I realize?


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## fertigaudio (Jul 18, 2010)

nineball said:


> i would imagine spl will appeal to the most people but i am a fan of single sub sq setups.


same here.


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## Spac3d (Oct 11, 2010)

No one hit wonders for me


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

FlexnInLa said:


> I'd like to see a 15" for daily that will handle more than 1k... but the car audio market is so small I dunno if you are wise to jump into it, especially considering how few people go beyond stock equipment, let alone BestBuy level stuff. Maybe there is more of a mark-up in car audio than I realize?


There is a lot of markup, but it still costs the little guy a lot to make them compared to a big corporation doing quantity buys.


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## Drew4You (Nov 17, 2009)

Mooble said:


> Our perspective gets skewed after being on the forum so long. Most people couldn't care less about the things we like. Even the biggest forum boner is barely a blip in the "real world." I definitely wouldn't build SQ anything unless your market is a few hundred forum members.
> 
> Make it loud, but most importantly, make it look flashy without looking trashy. That's where the real money is.


(x2) SQ is hard to relay to the masses. And for the ones that "get it", usually already have something in mind b/c of something they have had experience with. If making money is what you're into..... /
then do something that's clean, sharp looking, and tiers of pricing that most can relate to. 
Just my $.02...


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## tornaido_3927 (Nov 23, 2009)

danssoslow said:


> All joking aside, I honestly believe that anyone trying to get into this business will be made or broken 100% by internet response.
> 
> Not to downplay the time, effort, and money invested in R&D and the opportunities lost or found in that aspect of starting a speaker business; but it appears to me that having a quality product built to one's specifications isn't that hard to achieve.
> i.e., building a solid competitor couldn't be that hard.
> ...


And as long as published specs are the same as measured specs people won't get the ****s, and the speakers will keep selling!


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## jhmeg2 (Nov 6, 2009)

IF you wanna build me a beast 6.5" sub,with a price that I don't need to take out a small loan for, I would not mind.


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## bradinar (Jul 20, 2009)

make a sub that will get loud with minimum power. If you can make a sub be loud(doesn't have to sound good) with 200 watts teenagers will beat down your door with there sony xplod amps.


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## Volenti (Feb 17, 2010)

bradinar said:


> make a sub that will get loud with minimum power. If you can make a sub be loud(doesn't have to sound good) with 200 watts teenagers will beat down your door with there sony xplod amps.


There's plenty of subs that can get loud with a minimum of power (just look at almost any sub from the mid 90's) they just need big enclosures, and are easily killed by teenagers.


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## wheelieking71 (Dec 20, 2006)

give me an R12 with a cone that doesnt leave me afraid to twist the volume knob. or a 15" SI BM MKIII. im old enough to remember just how good the original GTi's sounded. make that happen without the 3ft box and you will be on to something.


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## Rkrajnov (Nov 22, 2010)

I like SQ but I think most people would be more interested in SPL


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## wheelieking71 (Dec 20, 2006)

Rkrajnov said:


> I like SQ but I think most people would be more interested in SPL


your right. there are way more kids out there that "listen" to bass, than people who actually listen to music. but, that market is already flooded. with, alot of high quality, surprisingly affordable drivers. but true SQ subs are few and far between. there is a reason infinate baffle, when done right, sounds so damn good. im sure there are a ton of people who are gonna tell me im full of B.S., but my ears tell me excursion=distortion.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

I need a low distorsion subwoofer that is efficient. By efficient I mean that in the same box and of the same power, some subs play louder than others (AE for eg.) 
Something close to 500rms to 600rms would be great. 

Have soft parts that can handle abuse and a strong motor making it very difficult to reach mech limitations... 

Kelvin


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## fertigaudio (Jul 18, 2010)

subwoofery said:


> I need a low distorsion subwoofer that is efficient. By efficient I mean that in the same box and of the same power, some subs play louder than others (AE for eg.)
> Something close to 500rms to 600rms would be great.
> 
> Have soft parts that can handle abuse and a strong motor making it very difficult to reach mech limitations...
> ...


You just described the Dayton Audio Reference HO subwoofer.  
edit: And they are cheap relatively speaking.


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## stevenje98 (Feb 8, 2008)

Well, from a business prospective I look at this way. Lots of the new cars coming up are small some even electric powered. The buyers of these cars are not your everyday 30-40 something year olds with 2 kids either. They are college students or single adults with a budget in mind that are 19-28 year olds. This is not the big SUV days where you could slap a 12” sub in the rear. The trend seems to be small cars. I know, I seen this same trend back in the Jimmy Carter days when people were lining up at the gas pumps. After that, it was small cars until the next decade. You have to adjust to your market; the market now ,and in the future is small car green. 

ask your self how long with the old SUV be on the market or anthing that can take a 10 to 12 sub. It wont be long I'll tell that. Most of the large cars and suv have hit the used car market already at 120K miles to boot. they will be out in the next 2-3 years at your local recyle yard, if not already. 

So, anything in the 6.5 to 8 inch sub would be your market, because you can fit them in the doors if needed or under the seat, even the rear seat. Some manufactures see the this trend and are now starting to capitalize on it.

you must also keep in mind the power requirements of these new energy saving cars. Maybe you should team up with a amplifier manufacture for this; they might even bankroll part of it. 

best of luck to you.


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## c_nitty (May 17, 2010)

We need more shallow mounts for use in trucks like my f150.


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

c_nitty said:


> We need more shallow mounts for use in trucks like my f150.



I can get a bad ass shallow mount sub right now, but yes I have had several guys ask about making some.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Dave, are you any closer to making a decision which path you're going to take?


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## Z80_Man (Apr 22, 2010)

Aha ! But I'm not a 18-20 student (anymore), I have 4 kids and I love big cars looking like... Cars !  ... So a 12" SQ sub seems to be actually the best choice, at least to my point of view, as I love my good old - 10 years old and now totally vintage - 33WX (actually 13") !

That's funny, my vote joined the majority right away, so it proves I'm not original... 

Stevenje98's remark is true, though... Could it be most forum members are mostly aged SQ car music freaks like me ?


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

There are soooo, soooo many subwoofers on the market nowadays and car audio really is a struggling market....I think there's really more money to be made on the system integration type of thing than subs (just due to amount of competition) and such. 

A market that hasn't been tapped into? Custom A-pillar pods. Essentially the Q-form of A-pillars except they actually look good/factory. Maybe even have your own drivers made specifically for that and market it like a stealthbox. A nice 3" concentric or similar like the KEF egg Uni-Qs would be to lust over. Just for really common cars for starters of course but I think a lot more people would go that route if it were made to be very easy to do so.

A lot of cars nowadays are going with 6x9s in the front doors. A truly quality 6x9, be it component or a dedicated midbass driver with a kickass motor on it, I think would sell. There are so few quality options there that the word of mouth would probably carry them well.


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

^ you can start by making a prototype for my '89 Nissan Sentra. I'm sure A-pillars for that model would _fly_ off the shelf...


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## AudioPhill (Jan 27, 2009)

CSS is in the process of a 38mm Xmax SQL 15 that is completely new tooling, I think they are on the right track, TSP's will be the challenge

My Idea 15 for daily SQ would have to be close to these parameters

Fs 20Hz ish
Qts .3-.35
Le >1mH
Xmax 30+ mm one way fully linear Xmax
Qes .4-.45
BL 19Tm or higher
Mms 400g or so
Linear suspension (not progressive to keep compliance nearly linear across stroke)
Vas 3-5cu ft
Sens 85ish or higher
shouldnt be to hard to get that into a 1K - 2K rms package
Spiders need to be spaced and leads sewn, terminals should accommodate banana plugs and up to 8awg wire via compression (spring loaded or screw down)


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

AudioPhill said:


> CSS is in the process of a 38mm Xmax SQL 15 that is completely new tooling, I think they are on the right track, TSP's will be the challenge
> 
> My Idea 15 for daily SQ would have to be close to these parameters
> 
> ...


You forgot depth for being less than 7"  

Kelvin


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## AudioPhill (Jan 27, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> You forgot depth for being less than 7"
> 
> Kelvin



I was hoping the motor alone would be that thick lol.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

AudioPhill said:


> CSS is in the process of a 38mm Xmax SQL 15 that is completely new tooling, I think they are on the right track, TSP's will be the challenge
> 
> My Idea 15 for daily SQ would have to be close to these parameters
> 
> ...


The TC Sounds LMS-Ultra 5400 is the closest thing to your requirements. 
Qts 0.325 Total Q
Qes 0.34 Electrical Q
Qms 7.6 Mechanical Q
Fs 20 Hertz, Free Air Resonance
Res 3.78 Ohms, DC resistance
Ls 2.8 H, series inductance
Lp 3.4 H, lossy series inductance
Rp 3.3 Ohms, loss across Lp
Dia 390 m meters, effective
Vas 240 liters, air volume equivalent
mms 501 grams, effective mass
cms 120 um/N, compliance
bl 26.8 T*m, motor strength
SplSens 89.7 dBSPL max @1W absorbed

Geometric Stroke 33.7 Millimeters, (voice coil - gap) / 2
70% BL 38.1 Millimeters, BL is 0.7 original value (one way)
Xmech 47.6 Mechanical displacement limit (one way)
Long Term Power 2000 Watts
Program Power 8000 Watts, short term peak power limit 

*"Your driver is out there"* (X-Files music playing in the background)
Kelvin


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## AudioPhill (Jan 27, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> The TC Sounds LMS-Ultra 5400 is the closest thing to your requirements.
> Qts 0.325 Total Q
> Qes 0.34 Electrical Q
> Qms 7.6 Mechanical Q
> ...



I've had several of those, Fs Qts is too low for it's Fs. Wont play flat to Fs 

Here's 2 sets of my lms 5400 ultra's tsp's I pulled

Original TC Sounds LMS 5400 Ultra 18" (TC4LM QCA) (Some Break-In)

Re = 4.0107 ohms
Fs = 22.4333 Hz
Zmax = 52.5281 ohms
Qes = 0.4130
Qms = 4.9959
Qts = 0.3815
Le = 1.9970 mH (at 1 kHz)
Diam = 390.8425 mm ( 15.3875 in )
Sd = .12m^2(185.9628 in^2)
Vas = 188.3549 L ( 6.6517 ft^3)
BL = 27.3490 N/A
Mms = 546.4212 g
Cms = 92.1140 uM/N
Kms =10856.1182 N/M
Rms = 15.4164 R mechanical
Efficiency = 0.4838 %
Sensitivity= 88.8647 dB @1W/1m

Optimum sealed enclosure 2.8net for an F3 of 41.3Hz
Optimum Vented enclosure 5.6net @ 24 for an F3 of 23.8Hz




New LMS 5400 Ultra (TC4LM Bolt on Basket) (Pre-Break-in)

Re = 4.1115 ohms
Fs = 21.8718 Hz
Zmax = 82.0565 ohms
Qes = 0.3752
Qms = 7.1129
Qts = 0.3564
Le = 2.4618 mH (at 1 kHz)
Diam = 390.8425 mm ( 15.3875 in )
Sd = .12 m^2 (185.9628 in^2)
Vas = 192.8393 L ( 6.8101 ft^3)
BL = 29.0781 N/A
Mms = 561.4697 g
Cms = 94.3070 uM/N
Kms =10603.6641 N/M
Rms = 10.8478 R mechanical
Efficiency = 0.5053 %
Sensitivity= 89.0534 dB @1W/1m


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

TJ Mobile Audio said:


> ^ you can start by making a prototype for my '89 Nissan Sentra. I'm sure A-pillars for that model would _fly_ off the shelf...


. I'll put a word into R&D


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

AudioPhill said:


> CSS is in the process of a 38mm Xmax SQL 15 that is completely new tooling, I think they are on the right track, TSP's will be the challenge
> 
> My Idea 15 for daily SQ would have to be close to these parameters
> 
> ...


Fixed.

Actually I was just going to say with that much Xmax and power handling, you'd be lucky to even hit a true 85 dB efficiency. Not that it isn't possible, I mean you aren't really shooting for the stars in terms of efficiency as far as 15s go...

Edit, after seeing the TC sounds specs above, realized even a high X-max 15" can be pretty efficient. I just wanted to point out that there will be a tradeoff in that arena if power handling and X-max are priorities.


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## corcraft (Nov 16, 2010)

12" sq, small enclosure! clean and simple on the design. Infinity Beta's are still my fav looking subs along with the v1 jl's. Well fav looking and sounding but the beta was best in a 15".


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## davidebender (Dec 23, 2010)

I voted 10" SQ, if you build something that can handle 400-500w rms it will suit most amps.
2 and 4 ohm voicecoils version, works in a small vented box, not too bad group delay.


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## c_nitty (May 17, 2010)

davidebender said:


> I voted 10" SQ, if you build something that can handle 400-500w rms it will suit most amps.
> 2 and 4 ohm voicecoils version, works in a small vented box, not too bad group delay.


I need this sub now!


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

I voted daily driver 12" 1kw+ 

That is exactly what my application is, and I would be interested in something of this style. I'm currently using a lightning audio storm, powered by sundown SAZ-1500D, and although it sounds surprisingly good for what it is, I'd like to "upgrade" to something more SQ oriented


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

bd5034 said:


> I voted daily driver 12" 1kw+
> 
> That is exactly what my application is, and I would be interested in something of this style. I'm currently using a lightning audio storm, powered by sundown SAZ-1500D, and although it sounds surprisingly good for what it is, I'd like to "upgrade" to something more SQ oriented


Here's the problem with taking the advice of people on the forum, and it's not that I disagree with you: I have a subwoofer amp that does roughly 1kw RMS. That seems to be the norm on the forum, a few people running slightly more, and a few people running slightly less. Yet most audio stores that I've seen sell mostly amps that are 500 watts RMS or less. 40-60 amps of fusing is considered a "large" amp.

All I'm saying is what we all agree on here may not be useful as far as the broader market goes. We may like using real 1kw amps, while most people buying equipment may just want something that claims do a kilowatt peak. I'm just not sure a 1000 watt RMS or more subwoofer is really the best starting point, due to the costs of producing it and the small percentage of people actually needing it.


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

TJ Mobile Audio said:


> Here's the problem with taking the advice of people on the forum, and it's not that I disagree with you: I have a subwoofer amp that does roughly 1kw RMS. That seems to be the norm on the forum, a few people running slightly more, and a few people running slightly less. Yet most audio stores that I've seen sell mostly amps that are 500 watts RMS or less. 40-60 amps of fusing is considered a "large" amp.
> 
> All I'm saying is what we all agree on here may not be useful as far as the broader market goes. We may like using real 1kw amps, while most people buying equipment may just want something that claims do a kilowatt peak. I'm just not sure a 1000 watt RMS or more subwoofer is really the best starting point, due to the costs of producing it and the small percentage of people actually needing it.


you're right about that. the average consumer probably won't be purchasing the same subwoofer I (or most of us) would. 

alternatively, the market is saturated with entry to mid-level offerings. just an interesting counterpoint IMO


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

bd5034 said:


> you're right about that. the average consumer probably won't be purchasing the same subwoofer I would.
> 
> alternatively, the market is saturated with entry to mid-level offerings. just an interesting counterpoint IMO


Very true, I thought of that. Thing is, a high-powered sub is pretty much guaranteed to compete with established brands, which is difficult as well.

It's difficult for any subwoofer to really distinguish itself. As far as the average consumer is concerned, they all go "BOOM", just some do it louder than others...

Make it look cool and come up with some reason it's the best, and market to teenagers. Ugh...


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

TJ Mobile Audio said:


> Very true, I thought of that. Thing is, a high-powered sub is pretty much guaranteed to compete with established brands, which is difficult as well.
> 
> It's difficult for any subwoofer to really distinguish itself. As far as the average consumer is concerned, they all go "BOOM", just some do it louder than others...
> 
> Make it look cool and come up with some reason it's the best, and market to teenagers. Ugh...


LOL man it's so sad but true. I would say "I wish the rest of the world thought like we do" but then we wouldn't be better than them hahahaha 

just FYI, that was tongue-in-cheek which doesn't always come across properly over the interweb


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

^ Yeah, I got it, LOL. But we _are_ better than them, right? We spend the same amount on equipment as they spend on an installed system, then install it ourselves to "save money"...

Then we have to reinstall it at least once a year to please our ever-changing ears.

Okay not _everyone_ here spends that much, or is that compulsive, but you know what I mean.


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## gumbysmoke (Jan 12, 2011)

I voted 15" daily driver 1000+


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## bigguy2010 (May 18, 2010)

12" SQ


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## Dremgragen (Jul 14, 2008)

I voted not a good idea, but if I choose, I'd say SQ 12" 1kW+


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## CorNut (Feb 1, 2011)

SPL all the way, some good tuning and matching you can get the SQ, just takes better mids and more work but worth it :laugh:


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## cleung (Feb 11, 2010)

I think a shallow mount small (8"-10") sq sub would be great.


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## RongGe (Oct 25, 2010)

I think its a bad idea because for every choice you have, there are already several subwoofer models to choose from. No need to reinvent the wheel


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## Jprice2708 (Feb 12, 2011)

I voted 12" sq 1000w because I think it will be the biggest market for you, but I personally would more likely buy a high quality 10" sq sub - 1000w would be nice


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## kvndoom (Nov 13, 2009)

Flat shallow mount 12" sub... those are going to be all the rage over the next few years.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

^ I would agree with that, once better performance is established among all the shallow subs, I think thats gonna be a huge seller. Only 2 I would ever go with nowadays would be SI and Alpines new ones. Would be iffy on the Alpines, but they might be really nice. 

I actually was trying to do this acouple years ago, didnt materialize, but I came up with some pretty unique designs. I wasnt going for high powered systems, I was shooting for efficient performance. 

One of my designs was so far away from how a regular speaker works, it would have been cool if I got to the proto stage for that one.


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## tornaido_3927 (Nov 23, 2009)

Soooooo this thread was started back in September last year..

DAT, have you made a choice yet in regards to which sub you would like to design/build?
Have you started building??

Sorry if I've missed where you are up to in this thread if you've already mentioned..


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## tornaido_3927 (Nov 23, 2009)

BeatsDownLow said:


> ^ I would agree with that, once better performance is established among all the shallow subs, I think thats gonna be a huge seller. Only 2 I would ever go with nowadays would be SI and Alpines new ones. Would be iffy on the Alpines, but they might be really nice


I would want most a cross between the SI and the AV series subs from AE; a high throw, shallow sub with tiny box requirements and +1000 Essques 
Probably a bit of a big ask though unfortunately..



BeatsDownLow said:


> I actually was trying to do this acouple years ago, didnt materialize, but I came up with some pretty unique designs. I wasnt going for high powered systems, I was shooting for efficient performance.
> 
> One of my designs was so far away from how a regular speaker works, it would have been cool if I got to the proto stage for that one.


I enjoy hearing about people with new out there designs! I wish they had more love and reached fruition.. No chance of any ever reaching the proto stage or further?


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

tornaido_3927 said:


> I would want most a cross between the SI and the AV series subs from AE; a high throw, shallow sub with tiny box requirements and +1000 Essques
> Probably a bit of a big ask though unfortunately..


that would be one amazing sounding driver, but i would hate to see the price tag on it


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

tornaido_3927 said:


> I would want most *a cross between the SI and the AV series subs from AE; a high throw, shallow sub with tiny box requirements and +1000 Essques * I call it the SI Mag v.4
> Probably a bit of a big ask though unfortunately..
> 
> 
> ...


Kelvin


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## mine4118 (Dec 31, 2010)

Mooble said:


> Our perspective gets skewed after being on the forum so long. Most people couldn't care less about the things we like. Even the biggest forum boner is barely a blip in the "real world." I definitely wouldn't build SQ anything unless your market is a few hundred forum members.
> 
> Make it loud, but most importantly, make it look flashy without looking trashy. That's where the real money is.


agreed....unfortunately..


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

One thing I really wish sub makers would do is get better at saying what a sub was good for. I mean you look at an AE IB sub and it says IB, X watts, etc. I see so many subs that say can be used for anything(!) and while some can, many don't work well at a particular app a user is looking for. Its one thing to model up a sub and tune it the way you want, but subs should come with box sizes tuned to typical uses. Half the time they are way too small or don't describe what kind of response you will get. Lot of them recommend box sizes, they just seem to do a poor job of it. I had an Infinity that had a great sheet on it but sounded terrible in my car, come to find out they added a pile of cabin gain onto the graph. It did show response without I give them credit for that, they also rated power for IB I hardly ever see that. I don't know if this is an odd car without much cabin gain or what, but most sub makers don't give that much info. You want to expand sub sales then make more different subs for more uses. This has happened across the market but you really have to dig to find what you want. Even I get tired of plugging numbers into models to see what it is, I'd much rather narrow down the choices before I do that.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

sqshoestring said:


> One thing I really wish sub makers would do is get better at saying what a sub was good for. I mean you look at an AE IB sub and it says IB, X watts, etc. I see so many subs that say can be used for anything(!) and while some can, many don't work well at a particular app a user is looking for. Its one thing to model up a sub and tune it the way you want, but subs should come with box sizes tuned to typical uses. Half the time they are way too small or don't describe what kind of response you will get. Lot of them recommend box sizes, they just seem to do a poor job of it. I had an Infinity that had a great sheet on it but sounded terrible in my car, come to find out they added a pile of cabin gain onto the graph. It did show response without I give them credit for that, they also rated power for IB I hardly ever see that. I don't know if this is an odd car without much cabin gain or what, but most sub makers don't give that much info. You want to expand sub sales then make more different subs for more uses. This has happened across the market but you really have to dig to find what you want. Even I get tired of plugging numbers into models to see what it is, I'd much rather narrow down the choices before I do that.


Very true, I got my brand new Havoc 12" and i didn't get the sound i wanted.
I will have to go with a diffrent box and diffrent sub application which it kinda sucks.


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## Vitty (Feb 26, 2011)

I voted 12" SQ 1000w daily driver. Something along the lines of the Image Dynamics IDMAX. If you could get great performance with some hit at a great price you'd have a winner!


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

I'm probably one of not many that want this but:

12" and/or 15" *underhung* SQ sub that has decent (like 15mm or better) linear Xmax please. I voted 15" the other day, but thinking about it, if it were one or the other, perhaps 12" is better.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

IDMX all the way.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

AE AV > IDMAX
lower distortion, lower inductance, unique


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## Razz2o4 (Jan 23, 2011)

I'm a Sing sub SQ guy myself.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Cruzer said:


> AE AV > IDMAX
> lower distortion, lower inductance, unique



I also want to get IDMX does anyone have one in there car??? how do they preform and how much do you like them vs other brands of subs.


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## tornaido_3927 (Nov 23, 2009)

quickaudi07 said:


> I also want to get IDMX does anyone have one in there car??? how do they preform and how much do you like them vs other brands of subs.


You should do a search, even a google search just of this site for IDMAX, there's a LOT of info and opinions on them.. Ive spoken about them several times in the last couple days..


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

tornaido_3927 said:


> You should do a search, even a google search just of this site for IDMAX, there's a LOT of info and opinions on them.. Ive spoken about them several times in the last couple days..


^ Second that, do a search for info on IDmax subs. 
Also, don't thread dump and create your own thread 

Kelvin


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## LunchboxCritter (Mar 8, 2011)

Tough as nails 18" daily driven subwoofers are hard to beat. Just my opinion.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

how bout a REALLY GOOD 6x9 sub? 

so peeps can put a pair on the rear deck of all the new whips being sold currently without major install hassles.


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## SB3BabyHuey (Jan 27, 2009)

I voted 15 daily. Remake of the w15gti with upgrades would be sweet


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

SB3BabyHuey said:


> I voted 15 daily. Remake of the w15gti with upgrades would be sweet


AE AV 15, check it out. $250 new 1000 watts rms, lower distortion, inductance, and has a better bl curve than the gti


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

Cruzer said:


> AE AV 15, check it out. $250 new 1000 watts rms, lower distortion, inductance, and has a better bl curve than the gti



Get the heck off my thread punk :toilet:

go buy one of those and leave 






.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

So... Do you know which direction you want to go with your subwoofer? 

Kelvin


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I think after going back and forth talk about subs, poor guy must be confused. lol
Well just to let you know IF you going with ID subs, Erick and Matt from Image Dynamics no longer work for the company.. Two the greatest people i have ever worked with (trying to get help over the phone). Well over all, ID is very nice sub, I bought it for my car and love it... I never heard bass at so many different levels as i do with this sub. But on the other hand, everyone has different ears and different opinions.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

subwoofery said:


> So... Do you know which direction you want to go with your subwoofer?
> 
> Kelvin


I went with IdMAX 12" dual 2ohm. I'm going to build a custom box for it from fiber glass


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

quickaudi07 said:


> I went with IdMAX 12" dual 2ohm. I'm going to build a custom box for it from fiber glass


 Was asking DAT really  

Kelvin


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I know for SPL ppl use 18" subs, but why for daily driver car. Also takes so much room to create the box.. 12" does fine job for me..... but thank you for sharing your thoughts


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## xanderin (Mar 26, 2008)

From a production standpoint I see this being a small operation for a niche market. Unless you have $ to advertise in magazines etc... Stick to what you have, Legitimate Credibility on THIS website. DIYMA is a Niche Market that has the potential to sell 1-5k of a niche product. Build a Straight SQ only sub. Why would you go with a product that sits in the middle with the rest of the market? If you make the effort to make an Exceptional sounding sub, and then provide lets say 5 to key review people on this website for them to review... You will succeed. Like it or not, when a product has a great review on this website, it sways the market for years toward that product. If you harness that potential, you will go far.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

xanderin said:


> From a production standpoint I see this being a small operation for a niche market. Unless you have $ to advertise in magazines etc... Stick to what you have, Legitimate Credibility on THIS website. DIYMA is a Niche Market that has the potential to sell 1-5k of a niche product. Build a Straight SQ only sub. Why would you go with a product that sits in the middle with the rest of the market? If you make the effort to make an Exceptional sounding sub, and then provide lets say 5 to key review people on this website for them to review... You will succeed. Like it or not, when a product has a great review on this website, it sways the market for years toward that product. If you harness that potential, you will go far.


not a guarantee but he has a point. and if u choose to go for an SPL sub, hit up caraudio.com/forum they love to nuthug. just prove its worthy and it will sell


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## HiloDB1 (Feb 25, 2011)

I would like to see a mid Q, Low Fs, high efficiency sub with a lot of usable xmax (linear Bl) and low inductance.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

But im not looking for SPL sub, I'm looking for SQ.. its for my pleasure So far IDMAX does the job, and i really cant complain about it


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## squeak9798 (Apr 20, 2005)

HiloDB1 said:


> I would like to see a mid Q, Low Fs, high efficiency sub


Figure out a way to defy the laws of physics and you have a good chance of making that sub a reality  There's a reason high sensitivity subs are low Q and higher Fs...they need a strong motor and lower mass, which (in part) dictate Q and Fs


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

squeak9798 said:


> Figure out a way to defy the laws of physics and you have a good chance of making that sub a reality  There's a reason high sensitivity subs are low Q and higher Fs...they need a strong motor and lower mass, which (in part) dictate Q and Fs


Focal have a low FS high BL woofer in their Home Audio Utopia Be speakers: 


> The magnetic field in the air gap reaches 1.75 Tesla (0.9 for the woofer of the previous Grande Utopia Be that was yet equipped with a Multiferrite magnet) to supply a force factor (the real power of the motor) of 34T.m. The goal is reached: the efficiency for 1W @ 1m reaches 97dB, whereas the resonance frequency drops to less than 24Hz. Here lies the true performance.


Regarding the mass, here's their explanation: 


> Reminder of fundamentals: the cone accele- ration is expressed by the a=BLi/m formula, where B is the magnetic flux in the air gap (in Tesla), L the voice coil length, i the current delivered by the amplifier and m the mass of the moving assembly (cone, voice coil, sur- round). We can always tell nice stories, but to speed up the cone and to get a maximum of dynamics, it’s better to start with a high BL.


Don't know about the Q though but if I had to guess, real high BL figures "usually" need smaller boxes. Hope I'm not mixing things up :blush:

Good info in this thread too: 
Sensitivity Spec in Car Audio : Hoffmans Iron Law Discussion - Car Audio Classifieds

Kelvin


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## GranteedEV (Oct 17, 2010)

subwoofery said:


> Focal have a low FS high BL woofer in their Home Audio Utopia Be speakers:


If it's the woofer i'm think of, it's special to say the least.

It's an electromagnet. Those speakers of course cost upwards of a new yacht :laugh: :mean: so I'd assume it's not easy to replicate. It also happens to use a 16" cone.

The TC Sounds LMS-5100 ain't too bad though.


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## Brian10962001 (Jul 11, 2009)

It seems like there isn't much of a taste for SPL woofers, at least not around these parts LOL.


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## theothermike (Dec 20, 2006)

Pure sq sub. Super low distortion, fast transients, high power capabilities. I want a model ultimo alternative. Screw idmax's, idqs sound better IMO which is sad


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Brian10962001 said:


> It seems like there isn't much of a taste for SPL woofers, at least not around these parts LOL.


Most of this forum is SQ based, but not required, but I'm sure there is more SPL stuff in the SPL section.


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## squeak9798 (Apr 20, 2005)

subwoofery said:


> Focal have a low FS high BL woofer in their Home Audio Utopia Be speakers:
> 
> Regarding the mass, here's their explanation:
> 
> ...


There's really not much true information in those quotes. Atleast not enough to figure out the pertinent T/S paremeters. 

But the Q of that driver would necessarily need to be low.....not mid Q as was requested. You are not going to find a mid Q low Fs high sensitivity pistonic loudspeaker, the physics involved dictate it's simply not possible.

Although this discussion is a little vague as terms like "low", "mid" and "high" are relative to the reader. What two different people consider to be "high" and "low" may be different, for example.


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## ousooner2 (Jan 6, 2011)

12" PURE SQ subs 

...AND!

15" IB drivers...mmm


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## paulspikey (May 2, 2011)

A shallow mount subwoofer for pickup truck drivers because the SI BM is impossible to get a hold of.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

A good SQ IB sub with plenty output that will be delivered in under 2 years from the time of purchase.


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## soFat! (Apr 25, 2011)

*8in SQ*

as small and light as possible please.


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## angelok9 (Mar 31, 2011)

Well I d go with 8 SQ. Just like soFat! said. The smaller and lighter possible. You could sell a lot internationaly as well. Whenever things are too heavy, its kind of hard for us outside US to buy and pay another 100-200USD for a shipping.


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## briansz (Feb 5, 2008)

With the advances in speaker technology over the last ten years, you'd think _somebody_ woud be whipping out some Velvet Hammer workalikes. Won't make the SPL crowd happy, but there's not a lot on the market in the way of competition.............


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## The_Grimy_One (May 9, 2011)

An SQ Based 1000 watt monster would be nice. Something on the lines of an RE Audio XXX (05 model) or an iDMax. These are great subs that more people would become accustom to if they heard them, there were more supply, and a tad more affordable. Many many people like a good SQL, and too many people now a days like that ability to throw 1000 watts RMS at a sub in a ported enclosure without a hitch. This is of course kind of bias, my opinion, but I know many people who would love these kind of subs, but have never heard them.


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## wannabesq (Apr 13, 2011)

IMO I'd want something like what Adire started to put out before they split up. High quality drivers that were well designed, handled power ranging from a few hundred watts to thousands, sounded good and got loud while doing so. Trouble is in this market, people just buy brands, so JL and Alpine and others can release just about anything that sounds good coming out of marketing, and it will sell, so any "no name" maker will have a very tough time getting noticed.


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## argetni (Jul 25, 2007)

Idmax


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## RogueStone (Jun 30, 2011)

10/12 inch SQ Subs, Image dynamics held a great following while being a fairly small operation


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## fallbrookchris (Feb 13, 2009)

if your looking to move quantity go with a 12" and 15" daily driver that looks "sexy" I think this will appeal to the most amount of people

once you make a name for yourself put out some high quality SQ subs then some windshield breaking SPL competition subs...SPL only speakers are a very small niche of the market, daily driver is the largest then SQ

I have always been a big fan of Exodus Audio subs as well as the website, the speakers look great, sound great are priced right and can be used for both home and mobile audio which I think is very important, when you can have one sub that performs very well in the home and in the car you have a real winner that hits two markets HT and Car Audio all with one speaker,

build a solid speaker, make it versatile, have great customer support, make sure to hit a sensible price point and spend the time to give the customer a number of well detailed box designs along with the SQ and SPL they can expect to get from a given box and a given amount of power just like is done on the DIYCABLE website...Oh! put out a bunch of YouTube videos showing what your subs can do, this will also act as marketing, really inexpensive marketing, that will get your name and product out to the people who are most likely to buy it

Good luck with your endeavor, I hope to be running some of your subs in my cars and homes one day!!


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

Mooble said:


> Our perspective gets skewed after being on the forum so long. Most people couldn't care less about the things we like. Even the biggest forum boner is barely a blip in the "real world." I definitely wouldn't build SQ anything unless your market is a few hundred forum members.
> 
> Make it loud, but most importantly, make it look flashy without looking trashy. That's where the real money is.


I some respects that's quite a sad but true comment. I had a long discussion yesterday with someone who used to fit ICE for a living and he vented his displeasure at subwoofers, stating more than once, "They're for the kids!"

I've tried and tested quite a few in my time, but I've concluded that while its nice to get the attention and looks that your average SPL or Street-bass sub can provide, It can also be tiring. So now I'm leaning more towards SQ with a bit of weight. 

Again, I guess for reason of personal vanity, whilst it's nice to gain attention and recognition, I still believe that subwoofers should be used in moderation to 'Contribute' and 'Enhance' the sound, and shouldn't be used as a quick and easy means to 'Deafen' and 'Annoy' onlookers. 

I've swayed from JL Audio subs to Digital Designs subs for the most part. In the near future I'm going to give Ground Zero a go. I'm now looking at trying the likes of DLS, CDT and/or Morel which seem to be dedicated SQ subs. SQL? I guess we all want our cake and eat it. 

As for size IMO it's a case of there being good and bad examples of all and any equipment. But for speed and timing I wouldn't go above a 12. Again I've heard good and bad uses (installations) of all sorts. My friend has a twin 10 set up, but the box is amatuerish at best and so my DDLE308 destroys it.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

captainscarlett said:


> As for size IMO it's a case of there being good and bad examples of all and any equipment. But for speed and timing I wouldn't go above a 12. Again I've heard good and bad uses (installations) of all sorts. My friend has a twin 10 set up, but the box is amatuerish at best and so my DDLE308 destroys it.


No difference in "speed" between a small sub and large sub.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

BuickGN said:


> No difference in "speed" between a small sub and large sub.


There is when playing this track .. quite a bit of difference. But i'm just going by what my ears are telling me. 

Ram Trilogy - Asylum - YouTube


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## GranteedEV (Oct 17, 2010)

captainscarlett said:


> There is when playing this track .. quite a bit of difference. But i'm just going by what my ears are telling me.
> 
> Ram Trilogy - Asylum - YouTube


That's nice. So you're arbritrarily comparing two drivers based on your ears and making widespread assumptions about two aspects of their design?

Did you consider the effects of damping? Frequency response? Inductance? 

Nice. Next you'll be telling me every car with Scizzor Doors is a Lambhorghini.


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

captainscarlett said:


> BuickGN said:
> 
> 
> > No difference in "speed" between a small sub and large sub.
> ...


First, your ears lie, get used to it.
Second, sweeping assumptions based on small samples almost always lie.
Before promoting the misconception that large drivers are slow, please do more research, reading, etc. I'm sure you can find a DIYMA member in your area who has properly installed, good quality 15s or 18s to help you dispel the silly notion.

Perhaps I can clarify, there is no *inherent* difference in speed between a small sub and a large sub. In fact, given an adequate motor structure and sufficiently rigid cone, nearly the opposite would be true: a 15 inch sub only has to move about half as far as a 12 to create the same sound levels, so it won't distort as soon. An old wives tale about woofer speed is not adequate justification for a woofer that distorts 3 or more dB sooner (assuming you chose a smaller woofer than you practically could have).


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## madmaxz (Feb 11, 2009)

Arc audio black 12!!!!


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## Yepvegas (Sep 23, 2009)

sorry to throw out such a noob question but... what is Q's and F's Dampening in a nut shell? Also would be the difference between SQ sub, daily driver. I get what a SPL sub is designed for. I would like to see a sub that can do the job cost under 100 bucks and be shallow. and run off 50-200 watts RMS. I think the trick is how lean can you make it and get the job done. If you can do that people will rave and you will move alot of product. Many of us are on a budget and just want some good tunes in the car and when that really good song comes on you can turn the knob(push the button) and feel the music. Just my opinion.


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## Pimpnyou204 (Jul 13, 2011)

Id go with a sq setup having done both i much prefer being loud and being heard clearly far away than being loud and being like wtf is that from far away. lol if that makes any sense.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

GranteedEV said:


> That's nice. So you're arbritrarily comparing two drivers based on your ears and making widespread assumptions about two aspects of their design?
> 
> Did you consider the effects of damping? Frequency response? Inductance?


i'm only 18 months or so into car audio and it's obvious you know far more than me, which is why i'm on this forum. So why, with this track does my 12" sub (DDLE312 in particular) thicken up ... so to speak, into one blurred bassline, whilst the DDLE308 and 310 remain well defined? Much the same happens on my other 12" subs as well? Kenwood, Vibe, JL Audio the bassline does become blurred ... maybe a little less blurred with JL Audio. 



TJ Mobile Audio said:


> First, your ears lie, get used to it.
> Second, sweeping assumptions based on small samples almost always lie.


Again someone who knows far more than me (and i mean that in as a scincere comment), but I don't carry around any technical equipment with me when i listen to music in my car other than my ears. I don't have laptops, or any kind of sound analysing equipment when i listen to music in my car. I'm not like some of these guys on youtube who use equipment to register SPL figures. I thought that when all is said and done, ones ears come into it somewhere. 

So where am i going wrong in my thinking?

Manufacturers videos, when they say: the best instrument for listening are your ears! are they talking nonsense? Is that just a romantic ideal?


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

captainscarlett said:


> Again someone who knows far more than me (and i mean that in as a scincere comment), but I don't carry around any technical equipment with me when i listen to music in my car other than my ears. I don't have laptops, or any kind of sound analysing equipment when i listen to music in my car. I'm not like some of these guys on youtube who use equipment to register SPL figures. I thought that when all is said and done, ones ears come into it somewhere.
> 
> So where am i going wrong in my thinking?
> 
> Manufacturers videos, when they say: the best instrument for listening are your ears! are they talking nonsense? Is that just a romantic ideal?


Captainscarlett, no harsh feelings intended. If I was a bit brash it's because many of us, myself included, have tried for quite some time to dispel myths like "large drivers are slow/muddy/can't play double bass drum riffs/whatever", to the point that it gets old. So I'm sorry if I took some of that out on you, I was just trying to steer you in the right direction.

To answer your questions/comments, I rarely use measurement equipment either. I tune by ear, but I am aware my ears can trick me, and my perceptions of what sounds "good" have definitely changed over time. I hope that means my perception has become more accurate and refined. Making broad assumptions though takes more than possibly subjective tests (such as your ears). To say that 15s are slow, you would need to have a reliable way to quantify it. You'd also need to dig deep into existing research and knowledge to even find a starting point.

While your observations may be perfectly valid by inductive reasoning - for instance if every 15" driver you've heard is _slow_ (or any other arbitrary term to describe what you are hearing) whereas smaller drivers are _fast_ - you may reasonably assume after enough instances that large woofers are always slow, muddy, or no good at heavy metal. Therein lies the fault in your thinking.

Fact of the matter is, if a driver distorts audibly under normal use, a physical parameter (in extreme cases a defect or a design fault) is causing that distortion. It is every bit as likely that a poorly built, designed (or simply mismatched to the driver) is causing the audible problem. In my experience 10s and 12s are easier to install correctly than 15s. Also many manufacturers simply use the same cone material and motor structure on all drivers, the result being a 15s or even 18s with cones that are too weak and motors that are too small.

Another culprit I'd suspect causing that muddy, slow, sloppy sound from large drivers (and yes I've heard it countless times) is not only a poorly designed driver and mismatched enclosure, but an inadequate amplifier. Many 15s thrive on 1kW+ of amplifier power, while you'd be hard-pressed to find anything with over 500 RMS on the shelves of some of the more pedestrian audio shops.

The best example I can give that a 15 or 18" driver is not necessarily slow is the fact that even high-quality PA cabinets often use 15" midranges or woofers, and the subwoofer cabinets are often 18 or 21". Yet many of these systems are far from slow.

I hope I've clarified some of what's being discussed here. My recommendation still stands - find someone who's been around for a while and who has properly installed 15s or 18s. Have a good listen and see if your opinion changes. Be aware that many have run 15 and 18 inch drivers with excellent results, so continuing to believe small drivers are the only way to have fast, tight sound will prompt more comments like mine from other well-meaning forum members.

$.02


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

TJ Mobile Audio said:


> Captainscarlett, no harsh feelings intended. If I was a bit brash it's because many of us, myself included, have tried for quite some time to dispel myths like "large drivers are slow/muddy/can't play double bass drum riffs/whatever", to the point that it gets old. So I'm sorry if I took some of that out on you, I was just trying to steer you in the right direction.
> 
> $.02


Spot the newbie:anxious:

I want to get into designing and building my own boxes, and I need educating. This forum is a good place for receiving good advice. Yes Its a steep learning curve for me, but at this point i know i need to get started with what ever i have learned and with whatever software is out there, and like many of you (in part) learn by experience. 

I'm finding that for practicle purposes, i'm using my 10 and 8" subs more. I have still got to box my JL Audio 15W0 V2 sub, but when i get started, i'll probably lean more towards working specifically with 8's and 10's with slighly more emphasis on SQ. 

Like I said its a matter of conveniece because i've got at tiny Toyota which i love and i'm never gonna get rid of. 

Thanks once again for your time and help, and sorry for hijacking this thread.


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## GranteedEV (Oct 17, 2010)

captainscarlett said:


> i'm only 18 months or so into car audio and it's obvious you know far more than me, which is why i'm on this forum. So why, with this track does my 12" sub (DDLE312 in particular) thicken up ... so to speak, into one blurred bassline, whilst the DDLE308 and 310 remain well defined? Much the same happens on my other 12" subs as well? Kenwood, Vibe, JL Audio the bassline does become blurred ... maybe a little less blurred with JL Audio.


Sorry I took a while to respond to this...:

As much as people reject concepts like frequency response, it couldn't be _more_ important. Dr. Floyd Toole's research on bass perception by FAR tells us that more than anything else, within the limits of the drivers, just about the only thing that defines bass tightness is the frequency response, aside from maybe in huge open environments with no reflections (which a car certainly is NOT).

Let's examine the DDLE310 vs the DDLE312 (i'm assuming the boxes used are the prefab stuff) in a simple matter of frequency response with a basic 100w of input:










For starters, notice that *the 12" driver is more ~2db sensitive*. When mating that to your mains, you need to adjust the level so that the deep frequencies are less prominent. As much as you want to think more subwoofer bass is better, it's just not true. If the bass is unbalanced towards the subwoofer frequencies (IE 80hz down) it'll dominate and "muddy" things up simply because those are SLOW frequencies.

Next think about the way cabin gain works. It's a FACT that 30hz is a SLOW frequency and the less of it you have, the "faster" bass sounds. So a sub that has no 30hz is going to sound tighter than a sub that does have it. Looking at the graph of the DDLE312 vs DDLE310 the the 12" driver has 8db more output at 30hz. These are anechoic measurements though and in a car you get tons of bass reinforment as you go down in frequency. 

These are just rough anechoic approxmations that only address two factors that separate the two drivers beyond "cone size". Trust me, there's more.

If you were to measure/ EQ the 12" driver down flat (or even sloping down) _in car_, you'd be able to make a much more valid comparision with your ears. The *transition to your mains* as well as the *interaction with the car*, will GREATLY (upwards of 90%) affect your perception of sound quality within the limits of the speaker. How do you do that without measurements and EQ?



> I don't carry around any technical equipment with me when i listen to music in my car other than my ears. I don't have laptops, or any kind of sound analysing equipment when i listen to music in my car. I'm not like some of these guys on youtube who use equipment to register SPL figures. I thought that when all is said and done, ones ears come into it somewhere.
> 
> So where am i going wrong in my thinking?


 If you can measure it, and then correct it, then your ears can hear the improvement. I don't mean to offend anyone, but a car setup or tuned without measurements is extremely unlikely to sound remotely accurate.



> Manufacturers videos, when they say: the best instrument for listening are your ears! are they talking nonsense? Is that just a romantic ideal?


Do you know _what_ *you*'re comparing to when you make the comparision? If the CONDITIONS aren't equal then how could you possibly compare anything _beyond_ the conditions? Until you remove conditions that are known to change perception (like raw unEQ'd frequency response and sensitivity) you can't compare the drivers arbitrarily. 

If after such external factors are removed you can't hear a difference (and there's a TON of double blind tests that show you people can't when proper controls are in place), then the things that can't be readily controlled (IE output, extension, distortion, induction etc) dominate, and these are what differentiate drivers in true HIGH SQ setups. And guess what... bigger drivers tend to dominate most of those criteria, except induction, and i've got a shorting ring optimized 18 in my home that is still flat up to 200+hz before crossover, so I'm not sure inductance is even relevant with good drivers.

On a side note, I've never understood the need for going vented in car. The box size requirements for a nice decently flat frequency response are usually too big (take a look at how NOT flat the above prefab boxes are) and any boost you get at low frequencies is kind of useless after cabin gain for music reproduction. Either way, a car needs EQ, but I'd say sealed subs generally need less EQ in car and the output requirements are insignificant - JMO. If you simply took your DDLE312, some plywood and silicon, and simply blocked the vent, assuming it has half decent linear xmax, look how much the rolloff smooths out and basically meets most cars' cabin gain transfer function perfectly. Then you just need to match the sensitivity of the sub/sub amp to the mains:


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanks *GranteedEV*. This is a mind melt. Just as i make a bit of progress, then comes loads more stuff that i don't know .... yet! 

But i'm not discouraged, i still want to do this. i think ... i know there's a market for this, and i want to learn for myself anyway. 

BTW what software is being used in those screenshots?


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

looks like winISD


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## GranteedEV (Oct 17, 2010)

captainscarlett said:


> d i want to learn for myself anyway.


The cheapest/best way to start and see how tight a 12" driver can be, is to block off the vent in your underdamped 12" prefab box - for just an experiment use some foam. The well-damped pseudo-sealed box will sound a lot more like music unless your car is really leaky.



> BTW what software is being used in those screenshots?


Those screenshots are of winISD, which is a nice colorful, easy-to-use and free box modeling software. I really like it for comparing drivers roughly. For a more thorough model, though, I do prefer to use Martin J King's Transmission Line worksheets. The box is a big part of what you hear, so you want to make sure it's appropriate, and a lot of prefab stuff is anything BUT appropriate. I would only use a prefab box if it fit my criteria for a driver.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

I have put the question out there, but how do you factor in cabin gain? is there software? do i grab a mic or spl metre or something?


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