# Porsche 944 Turbo build



## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Okay, this is my first real post here, and I thought I would put up a couple of pictures from the (very) early stages of my '88 Porsche 944 Turbo (951) stereo build. This is my recently-acquired second Porsche -- my first one is much nicer, in far better shape, but won't be nearly as fun as I think this one will be when I get it finished. I'm hoping to be mostly complete by the summer, with an exponential increase in production leading up to then as it warms up!

The equipment list is evolving even as we speak, but I'm thinking of the following from my current pile of car audio stuff for source and amplification:

Alpine IVA-W505
Alpine PXA-H100 / KTX-H100 
Boston Acoustics GT-50 5 channel amp (front four channels bridged to two)
Boston 12" DVC sub
Dynaudio 3-way passive set (Esotec system 360)

First, the car:









Second, the front stage speakers, Dynaudio 3-ways and X-360 crossovers:









Third, some ideas for mounting them:



























Right off the bat, before I cut into the spare set of a-pillars I have, does anyone have any suggestions for tweeter mounting? Should I really be considering mounting the tweeters in the kick panels in a car where you sit so close to the windshield? Your opinions are welcome!


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## HertzGuy (Jan 23, 2010)

I think you should mount them in the A-pillars, but I am not a "professional".
Nice look on that Sparco steering wheel.
Keep us posted on how its goin.....


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## f#1man (Aug 29, 2007)

From Dynaudio's website

Loudspeaker positioning:
In order for the sound to be tonally correct, dynamic and transparent, the drivers need to be mounted in an appropriate distance in relation to each other. For example, in a 2-way system the woofer and tweeter for each channel should be mounted in relative close proximity to one another, ideally as close to each other as physically possible. Please note that the stock location of the factory-fitted speakers in a car is not always ideal for realizing the full performance potential of an aftermarket system.

Hence mount the tweets in the kicks as close to the midrange as possible.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

A kick panel to hold the 3" mid and the tweeter really wouldn't be much larger than the 3" mid would be on its own, so it shouldn't be difficult to get that to work. 

Will I not then need to worry about rainbow effect? Does anyone have any examples I could see of similar systems in similar (old/low) cars?

Update: I've made very little progress this weekend, but have been doing some soldering:










Here's a photo of the much-simplified harness for my head unit, wired to the PAC TR7:


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

AAAAAAAAAHHH, talked ya into it. Good to see you put your
build up. I need some Porsche company!

I'll be honest on the mids/hi deal, if my car had a door boot
like that; without question I would mount all three in the door....
If I could have run the wire in my door I would have the same.
I wouldn't want my feet near those nice drivers! And really from
a near single point source I would think you could make them 
sound better? forgive me if I'm wrong.

And personally, I think you could make door panels look better 
than having to build 3 different panels. Being able to put equil
time into one VS the 3. IMVHO! Can you take us a picture of
the door panel? Based on the shape of the bottom of the dash
I think you could make a pretty classy, near stock looking skin.
While your taking pics if you will, shoot me a pic of the roof ant.
I see our cars share MANY of the same body parts and the 911
ant. SUX!

You have very nice taste in gear though!


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

I have worked with this set of Dyn's in a car that also has a shallow dash and close w/screen.

We setteled for Mid-Bass in the doors (heavily dampened & baffled, but still a small compramise) and the mid & tweeter in the kicks.

With the tweeters out of phase (in reference to the mids) & careful adjustment of the x-overs & slopes (something you can't do as yet).
We got a DEEP and relatively solid sound stage from both seats. Admittedly height was a little low (just below the height of the gauges) but not bad at all.

Definitely advice you keep the tweeter in the kick with the mid.

But temp wire & power up the mid & the tweet (something the Dyn's are easy with) whilst listening to music you know, play with
- positioning of the mid first, then tweet
- bias is for the mid in all instance
- somehow have the voice coil of the mid sit on a different plane (both horizontal & vertical) than the tweeter
- don't be afraid to angle the tweeters completely different to the mids.
- play with phasing as pairs to each other and differently from left to right, noting down which sounds better to you.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

FLYONWALL9 said:


> AAAAAAAAAHHH, talked ya into it. Good to see you put your build up. I need some Porsche company!


Yes, you did, but you're way ahead of me! Your point about only having to build one set of panels is well-received: I'm pretty good with fiberglass, but I still hate it, and what little time I have for this should probably not be wasted trying to make a total of six panels look as though I didn't touch them.



sydmonster said:


> - somehow have the voice coil of the mid sit on a different plane (both horizontal & vertical) than the tweeter
> - don't be afraid to angle the tweeters completely different to the mids.


Syd, thank you -- that's really useful. 

I'm particularly interested in the two points above, and wondered if you could share some ideas as to why this might be the case.


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## diamondjoequimby (Jun 30, 2009)

nice. love the 944s. good luck on the build


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

CA4944 said:


> Syd, thank you -- that's really useful.
> 
> I'm particularly interested in the two points above, and wondered if you could share some ideas as to why this might be the case.


- The mid speaker is very important. its reproducing the most amount of the music/sound and is what makes up alot of the "staging" we talk about so often. Not all of it, but a large portion, certainly fair enough to give it your most time & attention.

- Placing the coils at different levels means the the chance of "comb filtering" or a peak/dip (cancellations or summations) in response are reduced or made less likely. Not an exact science in a car. But has yielded improvements over having both angles & voice coils equal in all distances and plains, in SOME cars. My first hand experience with these speakers in a similar cabin, was that this yielded slightly better results that with it all the same (3dimensiona) planes.
Again, trial, measuring & careful listening come into play in any case. 
Hope that helps.

BTW - non of the above is a hard written rule. Its a guide & a place to start. Dont be afraid to move the tweets or mids about, give them plenty of cable length and move them about, listen to what sound best to you. Don't be afraid to use an RTA (sound measuring tool) to help you along.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

sydmonster said:


> BTW - non of the above is a hard written rule. Its a guide & a place to start. Dont be afraid to move the tweets or mids about, give them plenty of cable length and move them about, listen to what sound best to you. Don't be afraid to use an RTA (sound measuring tool) to help you along.


Yeah, I would say toss them in some cups, then start moving them around and see what sounds best for that vehicle. Check out this thread for some interesting ideas/discussion of what makes a tweeter sound good in a car: 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio-sq-forum/65061-improve-your-soundstage-2-a.html


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

94VG30DE said:


> Yeah, I would say toss them in some cups, then start moving them around and see what sounds best for that vehicle. Check out this thread for some interesting ideas/discussion of what makes a tweeter sound good in a car:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio-sq-forum/65061-improve-your-soundstage-2-a.html


Actually, that thread is one of the things which drew me to this forum! I have some experience with phase and time alignment from outside the 12V industry, but I haven't employed it in this style of build with components like these, before. While I'm pretty solid on the theory, I don't necessarily know how it will apply in such a complex environment. Getting pointed in the right direction for the characteristics of this car will definitely give me a head start!

Thanks to everyone who's chimed in, so far! As a cold weather project, I'm going to work on flushing the trim ring into the centre console. (Attached image is not mine).


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## Bill W (Dec 9, 2008)

Your car looks great. I had an 86 951 and loved that car, I wish the kids car seats would have fit in the back.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Okay, not much of an update, as it's still pretty cold up here, but I did pull the centre console out of the car and fixed up the head unit harness. You'll see what I mean.

Basically, when I pulled everything apart, I found:









Here it is, mid-way through the process of cutting out all the butt connectors and soldering and shrink wrapping some proper connections:









And here's the end result, wrapped in harness tape:









My harness taping job could have been a little neater, but my hands were pretty cold by this point, and I really just wanted out of there!

I was surprised to note that the IVA-W505 doesn't offer a headlight or instrument dimming lead -- it uses some kind of sensor, I guess. I hope it dims enough.


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## cleung (Feb 11, 2010)

Thats a nice little car to play around with


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

cleung said:


> Thats a nice little car to play around with


Thanks. I have always loved them, but I have a feeling that this one will be a better car to drive than to listen to. Nevertheless, I'm going to do what I can!


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## timbo2 (Apr 25, 2009)

Sweet car! im very interested to see how you go! i have a 924 and am hoping to do an install soon.... p/s nice choice in speakers.


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## tusk (Feb 20, 2008)

Nice car. Always wanted one. 

The 505 has an autodim feature. It works.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

tusk said:


> Nice car. Always wanted one.
> 
> The 505 has an autodim feature. It works.


Okay, great -- we seem to have a comparable set up for signal: are you using imprint? Do you have any tips for setting the 505 and PXA-H100 up, together?


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## tusk (Feb 20, 2008)

I am and I do. Shoot me a PM


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## jobrizzle7481 (Jul 1, 2009)

Can't ever go wrong with Dyn. Nice attention to detail.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

Wiring rescued!!!!


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Time for another update. I pulled out the interior and discovered some surface rust on the floor which I had to take care of before putting any deadener down. (I used POR-15, then a quick blast of silver duplicolor).


























I stripped off the old, brittle sound deadener from the transmission tunnel and added some fresh stuff, partly to block some heat (after all, I did just delete the A/C!). Here are some in-progress photos, also showing the MLV (In my case, I'm using B-Quiet Ultimate and B-Quiet V-Comp because the shipping is much less expensive in Canada):


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

I have the power wire run and some of the speaker cables made. As far as position goes for the amp, I've settled (a little reluctantly) on the spare tire well. I wanted to have it in the back seat enclosure I'm building in order to keep all the wire runs shorter, but it is just too big to fit comfortably.

I ran the power wire through where the windshield antenna leads would normally go through the firewall, since my car uses a roof antenna, not the standard windshield-mount antenna which was normally on '87+ cars. It was a tight squeeze (the wire is 4 gauge) and I had to try a few different grommets.

On to the photos!

First off, I techflexed the red power wire with purple shielding:



















Starting from the car interior side of the firewall, I made my way along, fastening the cable either to existing cables, or directly to the body using wire ties and stick-down wire tie anchors every eight inches or so. This is not a competitive install, and the carpet can be a tight fit!



















Here's the run into the spare tire well:










We'll come back to that in a minute, but first it's back up to the front, to the engine side of the firewall. I used a 100 amp ANL fuse and a watertight holder. Also, some silicone anywhere I went through the firewall.



















Finally, to finish off the power side of things, I put a fused distribution block on the passenger side wall of the spare tire well, and scavenged some brass parts from another one to make a ground block, as well:


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Also, I installed a head unit! It's an Alpine W505 with the Blackbird navigation module, and I've run the GPS antenna up under the dash and parked it below the defrost vents for now.










I'm still playing with the depth, but putting the chassis much deeper into the opening will require me to angle the face downward a bit more. It's also worth noting that this screen extends out slightly when powered on, so it sits a little more recessed when it's off.










Also, don't worry about what seem to be scratches on the screen -- that's just a temporary ebay film I put in place while fitting the unit.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

nice progress... wondered how this was going.


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## tusk (Feb 20, 2008)

Keep plugging away at it!


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks, guys. Now that it's nicer out, I hope to make a lot more progress. I also have the H100 and Boston amp installed now, but my camera was between batteries for that step, so I'll have to take some photos of them this weekend.

This car is a blast to work on. Everything comes apart or goes together so easily! It's really kind of a shame that there aren't any other installs going on in similar cars, right now but, as always, I welcome all of your input and details of your similar experiences!


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

CA4944 said:


> This car is a blast to work on. Everything comes apart or goes together so easily!


Really? That is not often said of Euro cars. Maybe it is specific to that Porsche?


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

94VG30DE said:


> Really? That is not often said of Euro cars. Maybe it is specific to that Porsche?


More likely it's a function of it being a car designed in the '80s. All of my later Euro cars have required near-complete disassembly of the interlocking interior to do even the most minor of things. This one is really modular. I just need to remember to be careful of the plastic tabs on switches!


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

FWIW, here is a link to a parts place that you may or may not know about. I use this place for Volvo parts a lot, as it is pretty cheap. They carry other Euro stuff though. 
Buy Car Parts - Aftermarket Auto Parts - Volvo Parts, VW Parts, Audi Parts, BMW Parts, Mercedes Parts, Porsche Parts


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Wow Charlie your making fantastic progress! Your WAY ahead of me at this stage. Your install did give me an idea what to do with all the stick on white ziptie pads I have left over from a boat build. Again, great progress keep up the great work!


I really gotta agree, how easy it is to work on our cars. It could be due in part to the era they were built in. Back then we didn't have a computer telling another computer to warn you of low air pressure in a tire, or that your about to run over a turd in your driveway. Things were simple back then! With all that being said, I would still rather drop my motor out of the car to do a valve job or put a clutch in it. Have you ever heard of Pelican Parts? If not its a must have website in your favs for both Porsche and BMW parts. The forum is much like this one, very little if no bashing, civilized, car guys helping car guys and just good ole fun. If you cant tell, I highly recommend...


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## Vitiate (Apr 13, 2010)

nice read - definitely gave me some ideas for my p


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

FLYONWALL9 said:


> Wow Charlie your making fantastic progress! Your WAY ahead of me at this stage. Your install did give me an idea what to do with all the stick on white ziptie pads I have left over from a boat build. Again, great progress keep up the great work!
> 
> 
> I really gotta agree, how easy it is to work on our cars. It could be due in part to the era they were built in. Back then we didn't have a computer telling another computer to warn you of low air pressure in a tire, or that your about to run over a turd in your driveway. Things were simple back then! With all that being said, I would still rather drop my motor out of the car to do a valve job or put a clutch in it. Have you ever heard of Pelican Parts? If not its a must have website in your favs for both Porsche and BMW parts. The forum is much like this one, very little if no bashing, civilized, car guys helping car guys and just good ole fun. If you cant tell, I highly recommend...


Thank you! I've been doing some mechanical stuff for the past couple of weeks, but as soon as my replacement router gets here (this will be router #4!) I'll start cutting my speaker rings.

As for Pelican, I certainly have heard of them, and I love the forum!


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Vitiate said:


> nice read - definitely gave me some ideas for my p


I'm glad you're enjoying it, so far. What do you have? More updates next weekend!


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Okay, a little more progress this weekend: rings for the MW160s are cut, drilled, fitted and awaiting epoxy and t-nuts. My plan is to sandwich the (totally flat, thin) door card between the door and the speaker with these pods. I still have to seal the door, and I may round the inner and outer edges over a bit on the shaper before I epoxy them.

The photos!























































Here's an approximation of the fit with the speaker and grille in place. I left room for vinyl, but I'm not sure how the wrap would go, given how deep the pods are...










I'm thinking of priming them and painting them with satin black automotive paint once they're sealed. In spite of their size, I want them to be as unnoticeable as possible. Any suggestions?


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Charlie, 

Man your doing some kick butt stuff to your P-car......

AS for the paint, are you going to be using fiberglass in any
part of this install? If so, and if I were you, I would go to any
glass supply and buy pigment. You know the benefits of using
resin on wood, in the event ANY moister gets to it, nothing will
happen. Pigment will only cost you 5bucks or less, and if you
already have the resin even better. Just what I would / am
going to do when I catch up.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks! They have their first coat of resin on them now, actually. If I've learned anything from my boat building days, it's water-proofness!  

As far as pigment goes, I've never been able to get resin to look quite "right" with pigment, personally. Maybe I wasn't using enough, but the West System stuff that I tried it with a couple of years ago always looked cloudy, even though I was only trying to get white...

I was thinking of: 

 Resin
 High-build primer
 Some kind of texture coat
 Black satin urethane


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

I can surely understand that. 

Most any time I had to color something with light or bright 
colors I always used a filler. Like the gaps in say an old
barrel back or any classic planked boat. I would use talc,
milled fiberglass, chopped strand, microballoons. You
really need to use very clear slow drying resins to get a
light color without cloud, then add pigment. With dark 
colors its a dump and go process.

Another idea would be to use graphite if you want something
tough as nails and black. You can apply it with a resin safe 
roller to give it texture if that is the look your after.. Other than 
that, the idea and list of process you gave will work also.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

FLYONWALL9 said:


> Another idea would be to use graphite if you want something tough as nails and black. You can apply it with a resin safe roller to give it texture if that is the look your after.. Other than that, the idea and list of process you gave will work also.


That's a really interesting idea. Will graphite mix with standard resin? Roller application could make it much easier to get a consistent texture...


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Yes it will, for boat use 20% filler or graphite. If your wanting it to
hold a texture that isn't too radical I would just trial and error on a
piece of cardboard. A roller like what is used for bedliners is an idea
or if you want smoother then I suggest ordering from boatbuilders central
or Bateau.com. Joel is who you need to speak with, he IS 'the man' or
you can find them local at some mom and pop stores. 

One thing I should say, do not use graphite if you plan at all on sanding it!
Unless you don't mind sanding for countless hours with little to NO results.
Even with a belt sander. So, yeah its a pretty tough finish.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

Can I advice that you extend those speakers pods as much as possible, that is think about using the largest piece of baffle you can to hold those mids on place! the better you accomplish the better midbass responce (given that you will seal the front wave from the back & deaden the door) will be.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Yes, I've been looking at how incomplete the sheet metal is under the mounts with some concern, too. What if I were to mold a backing plate in fiberglass to cover part of the front of the door? My biggest concern is adding depth in that area.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

Looks Fantastic! I SOOOOO miss my turbo.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Brian, that one is much cleaner one than mine right now! Mine has all sorts of dents, bondo cracks and runs in the previous owner's bad Maaco spray job. Paint this coming winter. Those wheels are getting harder and harder to find, too. 

Did you do any stereo work to it?


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

CA4944 said:


> Yes, I've been looking at how incomplete the sheet metal is under the mounts with some concern, too. What if I were to mold a backing plate in fiberglass to cover part of the front of the door? My biggest concern is adding depth in that area.


 think behind the sheet metal...
That is, there is some room between where the window runs and the sheet metal of the door? so use it up.
Size up/measure what you can fit in there. Remove window & mech, cut wood, trial fit it, remove & treat wood (fg resin/paint), put back in permemantly, screw through sheet metal, screw on speaker baffle to it too, put back window & mech.
Sounds harder than it really is, but its an idead. Combine it with your FG plate to cover the rest of the service holes and your onto something really serious!


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

sydmonster said:


> think behind the sheet metal...
> That is, there is some room between where the window runs and the sheet metal of the door? so use it up.
> Size up/measure what you can fit in there. Remove window & mech, cut wood, trial fit it, remove & treat wood (fg resin/paint), put back in permemantly, screw through sheet metal, screw on speaker baffle to it too, put back window & mech.
> Sounds harder than it really is, but its an idead. Combine it with your FG plate to cover the rest of the service holes and your onto something really serious!


This brings up a question that I can tag onto Charlies thread that I was wondering, it may also help him too. Being he and I are both using 8"mb drivers in the door, can you use those thick foam like one of these
Foam Speaker Baffles at Crutchfield.com

I was going to make rings like Charlie, put a baffle like this in the hole then screw the MDF to the door. Wouldn't this work good, isolating the front from the back? Do you then run into the baffle not providing enough air space?


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

sydmonster said:


> think behind the sheet metal...
> That is, there is some room between where the window runs and the sheet metal of the door? so use it up.
> Size up/measure what you can fit in there. Remove window & mech, cut wood, trial fit it, remove & treat wood (fg resin/paint), put back in permemantly, screw through sheet metal, screw on speaker baffle to it too, put back window & mech.
> Sounds harder than it really is, but its an idead. Combine it with your FG plate to cover the rest of the service holes and your onto something really serious!


Good idea. There is at least a 1/4" of depth in those areas, so maybe I should fit blocking plates into there using masonite...



FLYONWALL9 said:


> This brings up a question that I can tag onto Charlies thread that I was wondering, it may also help him too. Being he and I are both using 8"mb drivers in the door, can you use those thick foam like one of these
> Foam Speaker Baffles at Crutchfield.com


Technically, mine are 7" . I've seen these used before, too, and the popular solution to there not being enough air space in them is to cut out the bottom half, while preserving the full baffle. When oriented correctly in the door, then, you have a kind of "roof" over the speaker. 

I will *certainly* have to do something similar, because my doors let a lot of water into them!


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

In the end it adds mass, structural support and rear wave blockage... all that helps get most from those drivers!!!


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Some more progress today:

I sealed up the mounts for the door speakers:










And soldered the speaker connectors up:




























And mounted in the car:










I'm temporarily going to run a 2-way active set up (which is why the tweeters are sitting squarely where the 3" mids will be when I get around to 3-way, and why I'm using such a crude bracket). I'm getting tired of not having music!


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

nice! play with axis angles and see how it affects staging! this is a good preriod to do trials!


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

sydmonster said:


> nice! play with axis angles and see how it affects staging! this is a good preriod to do trials!


I had what you said in mind when I made these mounts! I wanted to make something which is quickly removable. It will play, today!


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

CA4944 said:


> And mounted in the car:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice! Gotta love Deans plugs...I used them in my setup.

Jay


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

JayinMI said:


> Nice! Gotta love Deans plugs...I used them in my setup.
> 
> Jay


Thank you! Do you think they'll be okay for the MW160s in my doors, as well? I have a big bag of them and figured I should put them to work, but I've never used them with much current.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

I don't expect any problems with mine. They are made for use with RC car motors/Speed controls/Batteries and those draw a TON of current. (Well over 60 DC Amps).

So far, running a JL HD 900/5, I haven't had any issues, even on my sub channel.

Jay


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

CA4944 said:


> Thank you! Do you think they'll be okay for the MW160s in my doors, as well? I have a big bag of them and figured I should put them to work, but I've never used them with much current.


From their website: "The Ultra Plug actually has less resistance, including the solder joints, than an equivalent length piece of 12 gauge wire."

I like all the testing for imaging/staging. Might a cheap RTA system make this a little easier?


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

I have music!
I haven't started tuning yet, but I'm running the 160s and tweeters active, via the H100. 

To get there, I finished up the speaker wiring (black for midbass and white for tweeters):










Mounted the speaker rings to sandwich the newly-sealed doors and the modified (and still incomplete) interior panels:










And mounted them with wood screws until my t-nuts arrive:










Here is a shot of the passenger side, to give an idea of my current tweeter placement:










Some notes: the doors are extremely solid. I cut blanks from aluminum on the band saw to fill the gaps then sealed them up tight. I'm glad I did. I let the midbass speakers play down to 40Hz and couldn't shake anything in the doors and response stayed reasonably tight.

Also, since I had to install the speakers into the mounts while they were already mounted to the door, I ended up having them sit a little low in the mount due to slump. I'll have to refasten them with a removable spacer between the speaker and the inner lip of the mount to get them exactly centered.

And the tweeters badly need to be aimed. 

All in all, I'm pleased to have completed a major step this weekend!


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

nice! having something to listen to and make subjective/objective changes on helps now, rather then when everything is buttoned up.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Okay, I don't have any pictures of this, but I put a temp sub in a test enclosure to see how it will round out the sound and set the crossovers, time alignment and roughed-in the levels this afternoon (I didn't particularly feel like going to the office).

The result: even with tweeters in the kick panels, the image is centered on the voltage gauge on the dash. In ten minutes of listening, I only started to get a little rainbow effect when something in the high-midbass range kicks from the driver's side, or from a tambourine on the passenger side. That said, the stage isn't overly wide, and I was hoping for something a little higher and deeper. I'm going to put the tweeters on test leads this weekend and play around further with their placement.


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## TEGBOY (May 4, 2008)

I look forward to this build, I have the exact same speakers. I am in the process of setting them up.


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## w8lifter21 (Jun 12, 2009)

I LOVE your steering wheel. Suede FTW!


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

TEGBOY said:


> I look forward to this build, I have the exact same speakers. I am in the process of setting them up.


Thank you. If you're going to use the 3" mids, as well, I would be interested to hear how you're going to position them. I'm still grappling with that a little.



w8lifter21 said:


> I LOVE your steering wheel. Suede FTW!


Thanks! It's more of a track wheel than a parallel parking wheel: it's a Sparco Ring in suede, and it's small (< 330cm). The feel on track is spectacular, though, and the flat bottom is great.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

I have a subwoofer question for anyone who's installed one in a hatchback: I have no plans to retain the rear seats, and had been thinking of molding a single 12" sub into the rear driver's side seat well, with both amps in the area that used to be the passenger side rear seat. 

I've done a fair amount of modeling on paper, but can you pass along any pluses or minuses of this placement from your own experience?


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## TEGBOY (May 4, 2008)

CA4944 said:


> Thank you. If you're going to use the 3" mids, as well, I would be interested to hear how you're going to position them. I'm still grappling with that a little.


I will be using the 3' mids. I am driving a 2005 STi Subaru Forester, I am going to mounting the mid and tweeter in the kick panel. The midbass will be in the door. Fully active off an Zed Audio Leviathan.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

That's a great car! We didn't get the STI Forester in Canada, sadly.

How far are you from building the kick panels? That's next on my to-do list after I figure my sub and amp placement out.


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## TEGBOY (May 4, 2008)

They will start in the next few weeks. I have bought a 10kg container of fibreglass resin and 3 bulk packs of Stinger Roadkill all this for the installation.

I had a 2-way Hybrid Audio Legatia system in there before hand, I wasn't completely happy with them, so hoping the Dyns do the job


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Not directly audio-related, but I had a go at building a rear seat delete to house my amps, this weekend.

First, a series of templates from cardboard and masonite:



















With the front piece of the box (5/8" fir plywood) partially wrapped in the same new carpet as is on the rest of the interior, I dropped it into place so that I could anchor it along the bottom edge before gluing the rest of the carpet over the countersunk holes and down onto the back side of the rear foot well.










A view of the fit of this first piece from the back:










I then cut and wrapped some side pieces to support the top, and installed a particularly important piece of technology:



















Here is the lid in place (but not yet anchored):










Finally, FLYONWALL9 suggested that I try loading the subwoofer off the glass of the hatch. Wow, was he right! With very minimal tuning, what the sub plays sounds as though it's coming from the front of the car! 

I'll be modifying my amplifiers slightly and installing them in the box pictured above so that I can use the rear spare tire well for a single 12" sub, firing straight up at the hatch glass.


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Congrats on the progress! You know I honestly do not understand why
Porsche didn't put cup holders in their sports cars. Believe me I get that
they are "drivers" cars, but we gotta drink something too! I have yet to
address this or even figure out where to put one. Your solution is as good
as any I've seen, looks good! Now you don't have to keep a towel in the
car to wrap your drink and put it in the corner of the front seat, so it 
doesn't tip over......


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

FLYONWALL9 said:


> Congrats on the progress! You know I honestly do not understand why
> Porsche didn't put cup holders in their sports cars. Believe me I get that
> they are "drivers" cars, but we gotta drink something too! I have yet to
> address this or even figure out where to put one. Your solution is as good
> ...


The funniest solution I've seen to this problem is a brand new roll of 2" duct tape. Peel the plastic wrap off, set it on the floor and put your cup in that. It does leave some residue on the carpet from the edges of the tape, though!

For the record, this is where I got the cup holder: Fischer Cup Holder $14.99 - Ultimate Cupholders - Cup holders for 5 Series and 7 Series BMW, Z4, Porsche Boxster / Porsche 911 996, Mercedes, Audi, Acura NSX and other fine cars. The ultimate cup holder / cupholder!


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Okay, bit of an update. Rough wiring for the amps is done (except for the routing of the RCAs, as I'm awaiting some which are a slightly different length from Knu. 

Here's an idea of placement (this is the underside of the rear seat delete panel, tipped forward on the hinge):










I'm going to need to fab up a coupling cap between the two amps to keep the top plates lined up correctly. That should be entertaining, since I can't add any more than about 1/4" of width to the assembly!

Wiring in progress:










Wiring mostly complete:










With the lid closed:










I wouldn't normally have built something which required a hinge on end-grain, and I was concerned about the strength of the end-fastened side of the piano hinge (the bottom) so I put at least 1/16" of resin on the edge, and I used 1" screws on that side. I'll be watching that part carefully.


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## spiderpig37 (Mar 26, 2010)

Make sure you post some pics of your sub box when your done sounds pretty sweet. 
Great build btw gives me some ideas for my 944.


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Nice work Charlie! KEEP IT UP


"I'm going to need to fab up a coupling cap between the two amps to keep the top plates lined up correctly. That should be entertaining, since I can't add any more than about 1/4" of width to the assembly!"


Why not stand the amp on its end, trace its shape onto a piece
of plexi or I would use lexan, cut out of the thickness you need? 
Then cut out its center just leaving you with a 'ring' that is the 
shape of the amps end and paint the inside black. This should
then show through the lexan/plexi but not scratch off. Or do the
same out of mdf, coat its end with bondo sand and paint to mach
the amp? If the end plates are easy to get off even better.

If you wanted to hide your hinge you could just cut a thin strip 
of vinyl that maches your factory stuff and just tuck it between
your board and mounting screws?


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## Audio_Images (Jun 21, 2010)

Looking great. I looove the Dyn seperates.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

wha!!!! you're banished










, i like the amp rack.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

FLYONWALL9 said:


> Nice work Charlie! KEEP IT UP
> 
> Why not stand the amp on its end, trace its shape onto a piece
> of plexi or I would use lexan, cut out of the thickness you need?
> ...


Thanks! I have two end caps which I should be able to trace to make the coupler. I hadn't thought of hollowing it out, but I guess there's no reason not to. 

Great idea on the hinge -- I'll try to track down some vinyl.



Audio_Images said:


> Looking great. I looove the Dyn seperates.


Me, too! I have Focal K2 stuff in my Audi, and this blows it away. 



sydmonster said:


> wha!!!! you're banished
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ha, I have two posts in a row with a coffee cup in the holder, so I can't exactly claim I don't use it!


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## Dooby357 (Feb 2, 2009)

Nice install


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## Audio_Images (Jun 21, 2010)

Yep SQL is the way to go with Dyn!


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## spiderpig37 (Mar 26, 2010)

Any updates ?


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Spiderpig, that's an awesome name. I could never understand how Homer could lift it over his head and reach the ceiling, though. 

Sadly, no updates yet. It's track season, and the car is really only getting used every other weekend, these days. I'll start again on the stereo in October! The good news is that all the stereo stuff hasn't ruined it as a track car, though.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

An update: I had a great track season with the car, and since the snow is flying up here, it's off the road for the winter. 

Component changes:

 A PXA-H701 has replaced the H100
 The Boston GT-50 is out, and going into a friend's 2010 Jetta...
 A Boston GT-40 and GT-22 will replace it, requiring a different mounting configuration
 The Boston GT-24 will still power the sub(s) but I'm sub shopping (any recommendations for a 10" SQ sub to take ~500W RMS?)
Most immediate on the agenda now that the H701 is in place is to place the Dynaudio mids in the kick panels, and finally settle on a tweeter position which I can live with. It's good to be back!


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## tusk (Feb 20, 2008)

Good to see the update!


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

I guess I was a little pessimistic on the GT-24's power. A mono 2 ohm should yield about 750W, which is likely overkill. Oh, well. Headroom!


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## timbo2 (Apr 25, 2009)

use the gt-24 for the dyn midbass. and the gt-22 for the sub 500w 2ohms is heaps


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

CA4944 said:


> An update: I had a great track season with the car, and since the snow is flying up here, it's off the road for the winter.
> 
> Component changes:
> 
> ...


GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK!!!!! 

Congrats on the track time, I so cant wait until one is built closer than
4-5 hours from here. IF, it goes through. If so, I will SOOOO be building
me a Palatov DP-1. I spoken to them a few times and they think they 
can make me mounts for a 1200cc V4. One way or another I hope to 
start building it next year, and teaching myself how to weld.

So, what are you looking for in a 10? Mounting depth(I wouldn't get a 
shallow mount if it were me), price, style of music you like most, I'm 
guessing your looking for sealed. You know the routine......

AGAIN, welcome back
SCOTT


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

timbo2 said:


> use the gt-24 for the dyn midbass. and the gt-22 for the sub 500w 2ohms is heaps


Interesting -- what will the extra power do for me on the MW 160s?


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

FLYONWALL9 said:


> So, what are you looking for in a 10? Mounting depth(I wouldn't get a
> shallow mount if it were me), price, style of music you like most, I'm
> guessing your looking for sealed. You know the routine......
> 
> ...


Thanks, Scott! As to the 10, I'm going to mount it in the spare tire well, facing up in the way you suggested. Accordingly, depth or appearance aren't major considerations.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Okay, I'm soon going to cut openings for my 3" mids in the kick panel area. The hole won't be very big -- can I get some recommendations for what to use to cut a neat hole in the sheet metal? Doing it with shears last time was brutal.

I have a 3" cutoff wheel, but I don't think it will be much help for a circle.

How about a hole saw?


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

CA4944 said:


> How about a hole saw?


The best way IMHO.....


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## jlturpin (Jan 28, 2010)

Great read. I have been a lurker here for a while, but have not posted. I am in the process of doing audio in my 951. It will by no means be to this level, but great ideas and I love the rear seat delete/amp mount. 

Did the time and money you spent on sound deadening help with road noise? The work you did on the floors and tunnel look awesome. I have some dynamat extreme and dynaliner for placement in doors and rear 1/4 to help with tire noise. I have some MB Stuff on the shelf, but was bought and sized for using 5 1/4 components in front door and 6 1/2 components in rear using Nakamichi CD400 HU. I started my search tonight for sub installs, but came across this thread. I was planning to use a 10" in the spare tire well or 2, 8" subs in the recessed areas behind the rear wheels, building small enclosures, for flush mounting so that the speakers will still be covered by the carpet flaps, with the padding and backer board removed from the carpet flaps.

My build is very much a budget build, but I am amazed with what you have done with the front doors. Did you seal up the vent that goes between the door and rear 1/4? After reading this, I may change my direction on several areas, but especially with rear 1/4 speakers. They are already in place, but SQ from them is fair at best and I have to remove them to put in the dynamat and liner. I may move them to the front and adapt your front install for the 6 1/2 that I have. Now I am off to search out what options I have for 3 way components. 

If you have any update, I would love to see them. Great work.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

jlturpin said:


> Great read. I have been a lurker here for a while, but have not posted. I am in the process of doing audio in my 951. It will by no means be to this level, but great ideas and I love the rear seat delete/amp mount.
> 
> Did the time and money you spent on sound deadening help with road noise? The work you did on the floors and tunnel look awesome. I have some dynamat extreme and dynaliner for placement in doors and rear 1/4 to help with tire noise. I have some MB Stuff on the shelf, but was bought and sized for using 5 1/4 components in front door and 6 1/2 components in rear using Nakamichi CD400 HU. I started my search tonight for sub installs, but came across this thread. I was planning to use a 10" in the spare tire well or 2, 8" subs in the recessed areas behind the rear wheels, building small enclosures, for flush mounting so that the speakers will still be covered by the carpet flaps, with the padding and backer board removed from the carpet flaps.
> 
> ...


Now there's a familiar Rennlist name! I picked a different username for the audio sites for a little extra security, but it's cool to see people here from RL, Pelican, etc. This is by far the best car audio forum I've found, and it's way too easy to get sucked into reading about some of the projects on here. 

First off, yes, the time and money I spent on deadening _did_ help with road noise, but if I were doing it again, I could probably spend half as much money and a quarter of the time for very similar results. In our cars, focus your efforts on the sheet metal under the rear seat, the rear interior quarter panels, the outer edges of the hatch area (including the insides of exterior sheet metal on the rear quarters and the panel between the tail lights) and, particularly, the doors. Having done two of these cars to roughly the same level, I found that I noticed the _least_ benefit from the floor and tunnel in both cases, and the second car (the one in this thread) doesn't even have undercoating. There was no way to know this before doing the second one, of course, but in my opinion, you should skip the floor and tunnel for now.

Your Nak head unit sounds like an ideal match to the the character of the car. One of the frustrations I have had so far in my build is that the double-DIN head unit is very slightly too long for the space available, but my car currently has an early windshield in it that's pushing the dash down slightly. My hope is that when I correct that this winter, I'll be able to gain a little height for the dash (and therefore console) and improve that fit a little.

As for sub woofers, I suspect that you'll find that a single 10" woofer is going to be more than enough if you can get the placement right. One of the huge advantages of the shape of the hatch in these cars is that it allows the speaker to load right at you if you have it facing up at the hatch. I'm sure you've seen those KLA boxes for the cubby holes that take an 8" driver. I considered making them for a while, but I've pretty well settled on glassing a single 10" IDQ woofer into the spare tire well, chiefly because this is a track car, and I like the idea of being able to easily lift a single box straight out of the hatch and leave it in the paddock. 

As for door speakers, I think that a 6-1/2" driver would be about right (mine are slightly larger, but I got away with it because Dynaudios tend to be quite shallow). I left the vents in the doors and quarter panels untouched, by the way. Oh, and I have not missed having rear fill since I removed the rear speakers. I'm confident that you won't, either.

Anyway, this project is by no means finished, even if I've been on hiatus to build a garage: 










Coming this winter are a new sub enclosure, some cutting and welding to properly mount the 3" dome mids, an a-pillar tweeter relocation and a better design for the amp rack to accommodate more amps and fit better with my roll bar.


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## mrm1776 (Oct 30, 2010)

Completely envious of that garage!


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

mrm1776 said:


> Completely envious of that garage!


Ha, thank you! My father and I have built it all ourselves, including pouring the concrete, so we're keeping costs down. We even made the doors. I'll have the last of the mud coats on this weekend, so I can start painting next week.


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## Joehs (Apr 27, 2010)

Garage looks like it's going to be a great project! 

Kudos on the car and the garage. Wish I had the craftsmanship to do it too!


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## screamatamonkey (May 15, 2009)

Man, that garage is ****ing awesome!!!:rockon::rockon::rockon:


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## jlturpin (Jan 28, 2010)

CA4944 said:


> Now there's a familiar Rennlist name! I picked a different username for the audio sites for a little extra security, but it's cool to see people here from RL, Pelican, etc. This is by far the best car audio forum I've found, and it's way too easy to get sucked into reading about some of the projects on here.


Yeah, I thought about that, but decided long ago that trying to keep up with different user names on different forums would be a nightmare. I have lots of interest so I am on a lot of forum sites. 

I have not made any progress on my project. I plan to get started on the front door speakers tomorrow if I feel like it. I think I am going to make some drop ins like the ones that KLA sells. I have also considered glassing in an enclosure into the spare wheel, that could be easily while maintaining the spare. The easiest thing to do would be what you are doing, and glass in the spare tire area and ditch the spare. Throw a plug kit and can of fix a flat in one of the side storage areas and call it a day. I am old, and just want to hear what I am listening to, with the full spectrum of sound. 

Thanks for the tips on sound deadening. I have my rear seat removed and have not decided what i am going to do with that area. With the seat bottom removed it is like you opened a window to the underside of the car. I purchased a split rear seat but my car does not have existing fixtures for mounting the later seat back and shoulder harness belts. I may look into carpeting that area.

Thanks for your response. Nice garage BTW. My wife built me a shop after I had back surgery. It is a 40X50 metal building with 2 post lift and 3 bay doors. It has been nice to have, but I really have not felt up to using it much in the past year. It is nice to have to store toys in though.


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

CA4944 said:


> Now there's a familiar Rennlist name! I picked a different username for the audio sites for a little extra security, but it's cool to see people here from RL, Pelican, etc. This is by far the best car audio forum I've found, and it's way too easy to get sucked into reading about some of the projects on here.
> 
> First off, yes, the time and money I spent on deadening _did_ help with road noise, but if I were doing it again, I could probably spend half as much money and a quarter of the time for very similar results. In our cars, focus your efforts on the sheet metal under the rear seat, the rear interior quarter panels, the outer edges of the hatch area (including the insides of exterior sheet metal on the rear quarters and the panel between the tail lights) and, particularly, the doors. Having done two of these cars to roughly the same level, I found that I noticed the _least_ benefit from the floor and tunnel in both cases, and the second car (the one in this thread) doesn't even have undercoating. There was no way to know this before doing the second one, of course, but in my opinion, you should skip the floor and tunnel for now.
> 
> ...


Where about in Ontario are you? Sweet garage.


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## JsUltimateSounds (Nov 29, 2011)

very nice work


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Thanks, guys. I should have my garage painted this weekend, so I'll be able to start moving in and get back to work on my car!


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## wopdeeze (Jan 10, 2012)

really like the amp rack, im working on my 944 right now made kick panels and new door cards for my 3 way setup ill try to get some pictures up. stereo is about to take a back seat to my 968 motor swap.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

wopdeeze said:


> really like the amp rack, im working on my 944 right now made kick panels and new door cards for my 3 way setup ill try to get some pictures up. stereo is about to take a back seat to my 968 motor swap.


Thank you! I'd love to see the kick panels (and anything else you've done, even if it's rough)! Any inspiration I can get is a big help.


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## jlturpin (Jan 28, 2010)

wopdeeze said:


> im working on my 944 right now made kick panels and new door cards for my 3 way setup ill try to get some pictures up. stereo is about to take a back seat to my 968 motor swap.


I am working on my 951 right now and just created templates to mount my rears since I only had 4X6 option in the rear. I will be glad to send post a pdf to scale of the drawing I made. I am currently working on door cards, but would love to see what you are doing and see your Kick panels to get some ideas.

Jonathan


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Charlie,

Long time.... I'm really looking forward to the install. the shop is the tops... I wish I could build someone of that size, keeping my 911 out in the open really does take its tole. am i understanding that you will be doing 4x6's or was that another member. I hope you would opt for a 4 or 3" wide band or even a 3 and tweet in a pod. then again i feel you really know the advantge. 

Again, I'm looking forward to your update... 

Cheers my friend,
Scott


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## wopdeeze (Jan 10, 2012)

Well i need to get my post count up to 5 to attach urls and or pictures so ill be back with pictures in a bit.


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Well, visit all the Porsche threads and that sould do it. Dont skip my 1989targa build


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

FLYONWALL9 said:


> Charlie,
> 
> Long time.... I'm really looking forward to the install. the shop is the tops... I wish I could build someone of that size, keeping my 911 out in the open really does take its tole. am i understanding that you will be doing 4x6's or was that another member. I hope you would opt for a 4 or 3" wide band or even a 3 and tweet in a pod. then again i feel you really know the advantge.
> 
> ...


Hey, Scott. Sorry I missed this. No, my plan is a tweeter, 3" dome mid and the 7" woofer. The dome mids are going to require some kick panel work, so they may prove impossible, but I'll readdress that when I get started on the interior next month.


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## veleno (Sep 16, 2006)

Congrats on the progress so far. I'll hopefully start my build as soon as I take care of the "no start" issue


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## Thrill_House (Nov 20, 2008)

Where about in Ontario are you located?


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## jlturpin (Jan 28, 2010)

I have made some progress and the depth of my build has grown from installing a few component sets to full sound deadening, door sealing, 2 Arc8's and Active setup and bi-amping my components. It has been a good project and I will start my own thread, it is not to the level of CA4944's but I am happy with my progress and hope I have finally settled on all my components for now. I have changed direction several times and have ended up with several HU's, amps, and speakers that I will not use in this build. Keep an eye out for my thread that should be up in the next few days.

BTW, still waiting on the photos of your kicks wopdeeze. feel free to email them to me, diyma username at gmail.


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## eisnerracing (Sep 14, 2010)

I have had two 944s 
1987 951 
1985.5 944 
i miss them both - even know they were best friends with the maintenance monster !! hahaha
I did some custom work to my 85.5 here is a pic of the door panel - someone before me had huge old school kenwood tweeters in the tops of the door so I used the cup added a bit of plexi came out ok 

























i rebuilt both motors !! nightmares
944 








591









well enjoy it and never sell it !!! hahah 
great looking buld -


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## jlturpin (Jan 28, 2010)

Any Updates on the project? Nice photos by the way.


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Yours has turned into a truly inspiring install! I too hope to break my car down to the block soon. I purchased all needed parts to repair all the little oil leaks that make these car synonymous oil leakers. I hope it goes as smoothly as it appears yours was. 

Its just down right gorgeous! You should be over the moon proud of yourself. I know I am for you! Fantastic work my friend


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Those very nice engine shots aren't mine -- they're eisnerracing's and I agree, he did some really nice work there.

I haven't done any stereo stuff yet this winter, but I did pull the front calipers tonight for a rebuild. I really love my lift!


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Very nice attention to detail Charlie. I would REALLY like to clean up my flat 6 to even half that standard....


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## fj60landcruiser (Oct 10, 2011)

Engine shots look killer! Nice attention to detail


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