# Horns seem to be not loud enough?



## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

After a long day with my RTA in the car i am confused about the spl of my horns.
Im running CD Ultras in ID MiniHorns and 18Sound 6ND430 in the doors driven by a JL HD600/4 @JBL MS-8.


The Ultras should have a SPL of 108dB, the 6N430 92dB.
Midbass and Horn Gain at the JL is set at 2Volt. 
I measured the frequence response at the horn mouth and at the speakergrill of the midbass (Processing set off only, x-over). 
The Horn was only ~4db louder 
After that i connected one tweeter (90dB) from my old install to the same channel and measured the fr in nearfield again... same spl like the horns 

Dont get me wrong, the sound is great, i have no problems with stage height/width or tonality problems. But i get noise because of the gain set at 2V.

Any Ideas?




Barney


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Well other than the tweeter measuring the same SPL I would first thing I would try is bypassing the MS-8 and see what the result is. So I suggest looking for a problem with the compression drivers. Disassemble the driver and inspect the voice coil gap for debris. Remove any debris with masking tape folded for 2 sticky sides out. Re-assemble and retry.

Possibly the RIPS circuit in the amp doesnt understand the load from the horns?

can you substitute another amp for testing?

Eric


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

I agree. My guess would be the MS8. Others have had problem with this processor and horns.


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

So i am not wrong and the level between the drivers should differ more? 

OK, first i will try to bypass the ms8 and look for the spl response. 
Step by Step....



Thanks!

Barney


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

oh ya, it should differ alot! to the point that turning down the horns and using your fader,etc to get them quiet enough to blend with the mids.

just to give you an idea, i have an x65 and a pair of cd1emh on my alpine deck. the fader has to be set near all the way to the rear(x65s) so the 6.5" get about 25 watts and the horns get 1 or 2 watts.


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

Hey Guys!

I bypassed the ms8 and remeasured the frequence response again at horn mouth and speaker grill.
The difference was again ~5dB. RTA at listening position there was almost no need to level match (only the highs where to low). I also switched Speaker Channels ...



> oh ya, it should differ alot! to the point that turning down the horns and using your fader,etc to get them quiet enough to blend with the mids.
> 
> just to give you an idea, i have an x65 and a pair of cd1emh on my alpine deck. the fader has to be set near all the way to the rear(x65s) so the 6.5" get about 25 watts and the horns get 1 or 2 watts.


That gets me even more confused!

Disassemble of the horn and Compression Driver is next... maybe thursday. Also a Steg K2.02 waits for testing!



Regards Barney


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

I cant wait till thursday, so i just disassembled the horn and the compression driver .
No dust or smut in the voicecoil gap... everything looks clean and new.
Maybe i should make a impedance measurement?
Re is 6,9Ohm

Amp is next... 


Barney


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> That gets me even more confused!
> 
> Disassemble of the horn and Compression Driver is next... maybe thursday. Also a Steg K2.02 waits for testing!
> 
> ...


they are 108-110 Db at 1 watt. these should be REALLY loud even with nearly no power. you should be able to drive yourself out of the car with 20-30 watts. they are 8ohm impedance, so you will get 1/2 the power off the amplifier from its 4ohm rating, but most amplifiers have plenty of wattage to drive these.

they are both sounding like that? do you have a spare amplifier (or even deck power) to try a different power source?


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I cant wait till thursday, so i just disassembled the horn and the compression driver .
> No dust or smut in the voicecoil gap... everything looks clean and new.
> Maybe i should make a impedance measurement?
> Re is 6,9Ohm
> ...



My guess its the RIPS circuit in the Amp confused by the load of the horn. Testing with another amp will tell us if this is correct.

Eric


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Very interested in this as the ID full bodies are going back in the car. This time on an HD600. 

Eric,

Why would the horn load cause RIPS issues? I didn't see anything in the impedance curve of the drivers that would cause concern...


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## joemk69 (Dec 3, 2010)

Bad pre out on the headunit or bad rca's?


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Eric Stevens said:


> My guess its the RIPS circuit in the Amp confused by the load of the horn. Testing with another amp will tell us if this is correct.
> 
> Eric


I sure hope this isn't the case, or I'll have to buy another amp.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

SSSnake said:


> Eric,
> 
> Why would the horn load cause RIPS issues? I didn't see anything in the impedance curve of the drivers that would cause concern...



Well I am not sure, and know just enough to be dangerous, but my thought is the unusual load of a horn could cause the RIPS system to set up the power supply for a lower impedance load rather than for a higher impedance cutting back the power.

RIPS looks at the impedance of the load and varies the voltage and current characteristics of the power supply accordingly.

A horn loaded compression driver does not have a simple impedance curve it will usually have two large peaks along with some other small variations. 

Actually I am pretty sure that I have had customers use the slash series amps with no problems on the horns, but I never had anyone compare the output to a normal tweeter either.

Eric


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

MS8 does weird things to horns


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> MS8 does weird things to horns


Ms8 was bypassed for testing. 



Barney


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## S3T (Sep 21, 2008)

My bet is on JL audio's riphsss.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Ms8 was bypassed for testing.




Barney,

Have you done anymore testing?


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

No, but maybe i will install an other amp today.


Barney


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

Hey Guys!

Today i installed a Steg K2.02 (enough power to tatoo my eardrum) to see if something changes in the relativ SPL from Midbass to horn.
I measured again the frequence response in Nearfield and at listening position (Spaital Average).
Also the impedance... looks like the german alps 

The xover highpass slope looks different because i cant set it the same on both amps.

The 2 graphs above in nearfield the two below at listening postion.
1/3 smoothed, ms8 bypassed.

First the HD600/4, gain at 8V



Steg K2.02. gain at 5V



So it seems that the RIPS is the problem.... especially in my case because the max MS8 preout is 2.9V ---> Gain up, noise!

To bad i bought the JL for my horns because of its low disortion.




Barney


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Not what I was hoping to see (I have some D220TIs going on ID full bodies ready for install on my HD600).

I wonder if adding a capacitor to the line would cause the apparent load to increase (the impedance seems to be well behaved - no low values - above 500Hz - at least for the D220TIs - not sure about the stock ID CD).


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

SSSnake said:


> Not what I was hoping to see (I have some D220TIs going on ID full bodies ready for install on my HD600).
> 
> I wonder if adding a capacitor to the line would cause the apparent load to increase (the impedance seems to be well behaved - no low values - above 500Hz - at least for the D220TIs - not sure about the stock ID CD).


Doubt a Capacitor by itself would do much, You would need to use some tank circuits to normalize and smooth the impedance and even then it might still have issues.

Call JL and see what they can tell you about RIPS on horns, If nothing else the tech could talk with Bruce the engineer behind them and get you some answers maybe.

Eric


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

I just noticed that i forgotten the impdance curve:





> You would need to use some tank circuits to normalize and smooth the impedance


Do you mean with tank circuits a resistor, capacitator and a coil in line parallel to the driver?

SSSnkae, can you call JL and post the maybe given information... phonecalls from germany are too expensive 




Regards Barney


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Do you mean with tank circuits a resistor, capacitator and a coil in line parallel to the driver?
> 
> Regards Barney


Yes it would take 2 maybe 3 or 4 to smooth the curve. I am not sure the peaks are the reason the RIPS circuit is acting oddly. Wait for SSSnake to call JL or maybe Manville will stick his head in on this and give us an answer.

Eric


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

I just found out that only my left horn seems to be not loud enough...
But im not sure if this is maybe the crossfire pattern of the mini horns or bad coupling from the underdash (driverseat).

Driverseat
blue left side, red right side



Passengerseat
blue right side, red left side



So i think its not the RIPS!
MS8 checks balance, i tryd another amp, so maybe the JL is broken or i missed something on the CD!
Im not definetly sure if i swept the rca channels... 
Next i check the speakerchannel output with a voltmeter.

Im getting close


Barney


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

I think you are seeing exactly what you should. Eric might be able to explain better. but from what I understand that is how the horn is supposed to act. the dispersion pattern is louder on the horizontal plane and less on the verticle. (to compensate, since you are closer to the verticle)

so being on top of the horn from either driver or passenger would be less loud and the horn from across the way would be louder. not sure I am explaining it very well, lol.


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

I know what you mean but this would not explain the measurement with the other amp.
Also compare the two graphs made on driver and passengerside... the difference looks too big for me.


Barney


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> First the HD600/4, gain at 8V
> Steg K2.02. gain at 5V


I didn't notice this before. Since I have an extra HD 600.4 channel pair I will hook up my horns and some direct radiating tweets and see if anything screwy is going on.

I know others on the forum are complaining about wierd issues with 8 ohm drivers but ALL of my speakers on the front end are around 8 ohms and I have had zero problems.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

minbari said:


> I think you are seeing exactly what you should. Eric might be able to explain better. but from what I understand that is how the horn is supposed to act. the dispersion pattern is louder on the horizontal plane and less on the verticle. (to compensate, since you are closer to the verticle)
> 
> so being on top of the horn from either driver or passenger would be less loud and the horn from across the way would be louder. not sure I am explaining it very well, lol.


That is correct but the curves he gets in the driver's seat should be much closer to the passenger's one... IMO, the OP has an installation problem 

To the OP: 
Is there something near the driver's side horn mouth that obstruct anything? Maybe it's not coupling nicely with your underdash... 

Kelvin


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I just found out that only my left horn seems to be not loud enough...
> But im not sure if this is maybe the crossfire pattern of the mini horns or bad coupling from the underdash (driverseat).
> 
> 
> ...


Need to do this test with the MS8 bypassed. Any data collected with the MS8 in the signal path is not useful.

Both left and right should be close to each other in amplitude and frequency response when measured in the same way so left side in the left or right side from the right seat should be the same or similar.

If they arent just reverse the speaker wires at the amp and if it changes sides it the amp causing the issue. 

If you want to see if its the MS8 then just reverse the rca input to the amp and again if the response follows the change its the MS8.

Eric


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> After a long day with my RTA in the car i am confused about the spl of my horns.
> Im running CD Ultras in ID MiniHorns and 18Sound 6ND430 in the doors driven by a JL HD600/4 @JBL MS-8.
> 
> 
> ...



my guess is your ms-8 is doing level control on your horns and your mids aren't high enough. the ms-8 does a very high tech level control. very percise, if it hears your horns much louder than your mids than it'll compansate the output.


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> Is there something near the driver's side horn mouth that obstruct anything? Maybe it's not coupling nicely with your underdash...


There is a shelf in the underdash over the hornmouth... i closed it 6 weeks ago with cardboard and duct tape but did´t notice a difference in sound so i removed it.
I will try this again!




Eric Stevens said:


> Both left and right should be *close to each other in amplitude and frequency response* when measured in the same way so left side in the left or right side from the right seat should be the same or similar.


This helps me alot!



eviling said:


> my guess is your ms-8 is doing level control on your horns and your mids aren't high enough. the ms-8 does a very high tech level control. very percise, if it hears your horns much louder than your mids than it'll compansate the output.


Processing was set off and the GE flat! I also bypassed the ms8 and had the same issue!


Thank you Guys!



Barney


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

i had some wonky level issues with an MS8 and horns and even Andy admitted that it was never designed with horns in mind so that it wasnt surprising I was having issues.
but one primary issue is one side always sounded louder than the other. it depended on which seat you were in. on driver side, the pass side seemed significantly louder. from pass seat opposite was true.

It has to do with the amount of Time alignment the MS8 tried to add to the speaker...but it was bizarre


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> There is a shelf in the underdash over the hornmouth... i closed it 6 weeks ago with cardboard and duct tape but did´t notice a difference in sound so i removed it.
> I will try this again!
> 
> Difference is too significant to be caused by the shelf. Eric
> ...


Do the swapping sides as I suggested to give a final determination of the cause Drivers or electronics.

If determined to be the drivers I would disassemble and clean out both compression drivers voice coil gaps. Do this using masking tape folded two sticky side out and drag it through the gap. DO NOT use compressed air. Inspect all parts carefully then reassemble and retest.

Eric


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

Hey guys, 

its not the ms8, its not the HD 600/4!
I checked everything like Eric suggested and cant find any issue  funny because i already checked the driver.

Tomorrow i will dissamble the compression driver and clean out the voice coil gaps.

If i only compared the left and the right earlier....


Regards Barney


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> its not the ms8, its not the HD 600/4!
> I checked everything like Eric suggested and cant find any issue  funny because i already checked the driver.
> ...


So you reversed the speakers wires on the amp and the problem stays on the same side. That means that compression driver has an issue.

Crap in the Gap. Over the years it has been the most common issue with new installs seems that high Bg of a compression driver likes to suck things out of thin air even with very fine screen for protection.

If nothing is in the gap carefully compare the two drivers and look for something that would cause the problem. 

Eric


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Eric Stevens said:


> So you reversed the speakers wires on the amp and the problem stays on the same side. That means that compression driver has an issue.
> 
> Crap in the Gap. Over the years it has been the most common issue with new installs seems that high Bg of a compression driver likes to suck things out of thin air even with very fine screen for protection.
> 
> ...



Whew! That's a relief it's not the HD600/4. 

Eric,
What are some things you've used over the years to cover the compression drivers to keep debris out of the gap?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> its not the ms8, its not the HD 600/4!
> I checked everything like Eric suggested and cant find any issue  funny because i already checked the driver.
> ...


How did you rule out the HD600/4? Swapped speaker wire and the problem stayed on the same side? 

Kelvin


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

fish said:


> Eric,
> What are some things you've used over the years to cover the compression drivers to keep debris out of the gap?


When doing the install, masking tape over the horn entrance is all that's necessary.

Once the install is done and the car is clean so there are no metal shavings about its not an issue.

Eric


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Eric Stevens said:


> When doing the install, masking tape over the horn entrance is all that's necessary.
> 
> Once the install is done and the car is clean so there are no metal shavings about its not an issue.
> 
> Eric


Ok, great! That's easy enough.


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

Eric Stevens said:


> Crap in the Gap. Over the years it has been the most common issue with new installs seems that high Bg of a compression driver likes to suck things out of thin air even with very fine screen for protection.
> 
> If nothing is in the gap carefully compare the two drivers and look for something that would cause the problem.


Again, thanks for the guidance 



fish said:


> Whew! That's a relief it's not the HD600/4.


I´m sorry that i may you scared 
Now there is imho nothing that talks against the jl and horns!



subwoofery said:


> How did you rule out the HD600/4? Swapped speaker wire and the problem stayed on the same side?


Yes! Unbelievable easy.... only the speaker connectors are a PITA to pull out.



Barney


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Hey Barney, thanks for sharing your findings.


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

I finally find the issue!

After i disassembled the compression driver and can´t find any debris (cleaned it anyway) i inspected the diaphragm.
The voice coil former is only attached the half circumference on the diaphragm 

What to do now? Maybe a cyanoacrylate adhesive?



Regards Barney


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

Eric, my vendor asks me to ask you if this is a warranty case?




Barney


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

Eric Stevens said:


> My guess its the RIPS circuit in the Amp confused by the load of the horn. Testing with another amp will tell us if this is correct.
> 
> Eric


Ummm... no. 

With an 8 ohm horn, the RIPS circuit will stay in its highest voltage mode. It will not get 'confused'.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

msmith said:


> Ummm... no.
> 
> With an 8 ohm horn, the RIPS circuit will stay in its highest voltage mode. It will not get 'confused'.


I think the issue here is the impedance. does the RIPs measure static resistance to decide or dynamic impedance? cause the horn dips into much lower impedance at some freq even if nom impendance is 8 ohm


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

minbari said:


> I think the issue here is the impedance. does the RIPs measure static resistance to decide or dynamic impedance? cause the horn dips into much lower impedance at some freq even if nom impendance is 8 ohm


The horn (or any speaker) cannot dip below its DCR, which is in the 6.5 - 7 ohm range... unless it's broken and shorting out.

The amplifier does not directly measure impedance to decide what to do. It monitors output current at clipping. I seriously doubt you are clipping a 150W x 2 pair of channels into a pair of horns. If you are, you need hearing aids. :laugh:

And if you were to clip two channels of the HD600/4 into that 8 ohm driver, it won't shift down from its highest voltage "gear".


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

msmith said:


> I seriously doubt you are clipping a 150W x 2 pair of channels into a pair of horns. If you are, you need hearing aids. :laugh:


lol, very true. I run mine at about 2 watts. still louder than crap.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

msmith said:


> The amplifier does not directly measure impedance to decide what to do. It monitors output current at clipping. I seriously doubt you are clipping a 150W x 2 pair of channels into a pair of horns. If you are, you need hearing aids. :laugh:


Manville
I agree with all your statements. 

My previous and wrong understanding was the amp looks at the load and determines the best setup. I have a more correct understanding now. 

Eric


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I finally find the issue!
> 
> After i disassembled the compression driver and can´t find any debris (cleaned it anyway) i inspected the diaphragm.
> The voice coil former is only attached the half circumference on the diaphragm
> ...


Barney,

That would be replaced under warranty. It is an adhesive failure. 

You could try and use CA to fix it. I have done this in the past with success. 

Please contact me via email and I will help you out.

Eric

imagedyna at aol dot com


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

Time for a update!

My dealer will replace the diaphragm.
Because of the delivery time i fixed the broken one with CA.

It works!

Thanks to everyone in this thread 



Regards


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