# is ensolite useless????



## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

i am kind of doubting this, but i just PMed somebody on another forum who i think is a reliable source about deadening in my car. this person also has the same car as i do, so i figured i'd ask for some suggestions on where is most important on this particular car to deaden, at least to start. it's a Scion tC btw. i was told to use a good deadening mat, but also told that ensolite would be useless. 

is ensolite useless? (i think i am crazy to even ask this honestly)


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## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

One layer of ensolite is so thin, its pretty much just going to reduce high frequency stuff.

ive actually ripped all my ensolite out in favor of open cell foam from the fabric store, and luxury liner from Ant.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

I don't think it is totally useless...but I do admit that I do not get the same "wow" effects some of the other members describe. It does reduce the sound of door panel vibration.


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

so should i just use a whole bunch of deadener? i'm thinking two layers on my quarter panels (as that seems to be the worst spot by far). and one on the whole floor and one on the hatch floor.


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## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

tcguy85 said:


> so should i just use a whole bunch of deadener? i'm thinking two layers on my quarter panels (as that seems to be the worst spot by far). and one on the whole floor and one on the hatch floor.


I would use open cell foam anywhere you KNOW won't get hit by water... Ensolite is good to use in doors, or areas that might get wet. You should be able to get 1/2" for about a buck a foot at the local Joanne's fabrics.


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

MidnightCE said:


> I would use open cell foam anywhere you KNOW won't get hit by water... Ensolite is good to use in doors, or areas that might get wet. You should be able to get 1/2" for about a buck a foot at the local Joanne's fabrics.


so just buy a but load of regular old foam from a craft store? that will actually do something?


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## SPEEDBUILT (Jan 21, 2008)

I would contact ant about his products, both open and closed cell foam.
Ask where they work the best.
Then go from there.
my .02


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

SPEEDBUILT said:


> I would contact ant about his products, both open and closed cell foam.
> Ask where they work the best.
> Then go from there.
> my .02


yea good idea. 

wasn't there a guy, i think named (rick) who did up a scion tc and deadened the crap out of it?


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

The ensolite cut down a ton of road noise for me coming through the doors.


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

tcguy85 said:


> yea good idea.
> 
> wasn't there a guy, i think named (rick) who did up a scion tc and deadened the crap out of it?


Rick you mean the guy who owns Raammat  Yeah, he had a Scion.


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

I would PM FoxPro5 about his Vertex Barrier Pad....i did a review on it as well


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

Daishi said:


> Rick you mean the guy who owns Raammat  Yeah, he had a Scion.


oh ok, i was pretty sure it was him. maybe i should get a hold of him. which company is the one thats involved with this forum? secondskin or raamat?


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## OgreDave (Jul 13, 2005)

SecondSkin, owned by Ant (DIYMA)


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Just make sure you understand what you're wanting to do. That will dictate the product you're going to buy. 

For example, you wouldn't want to buy one layer of deadener and one layer of ensolite to stop rattles, you know? The rattles are due to flex and ensolite won't help that at all.

I'm sure you know all this, but I notice sometimes that people aren't really sure of what exactly the product does and just assume it will meet the needs of a specific task when it wasn't designed to do so.


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## rockondon (Jan 18, 2008)

MidnightCE said:


> One layer of ensolite is so thin, its pretty much just going to reduce high frequency stuff.
> 
> ive actually ripped all my ensolite out in favor of open cell foam from the fabric store, and luxury liner from Ant.


Was the difference after the luxery liner night and day.????


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

i am pretty certain a layer of mat, maybe 2 in the important spots will kill what little rattles i have. i am more concerned with just killing some road noise. i'm not toooo concerned with weight but i don't want to add hundreds of pounds to my car. i also, just like anybody want to get my moneys worth.


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## rockondon (Jan 18, 2008)

azngotskills said:


> I would PM FoxPro5 about his Vertex Barrier Pad....i did a review on it as well


Same ?? night n day ??


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

So, what is it you're looking to accomplish in the end?

Ensolite and the like are for ambient noise (at least in my definition). For structural rigidity (ie: flex, rattles) go with deadener and follow the "knock and listen" test. 

I actually did notice a difference when using ensolite, but my doors were also HEAVILY deadened before that went on.


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

rockondon said:


> Same ?? night n day ??


Yes a night and day difference but i used the Vertex....i would like to point out that Vertex Barrier Pad and SS LuxuryLiner while serve the same purpose, the VBP is made with much better materials IMO (thicker foam and a more durable MLV layer)


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> So, what is it you're looking to accomplish in the end?
> 
> Ensolite and the like are for ambient noise (at least in my definition). For structural rigidity (ie: flex, rattles) go with deadener and follow the "knock and listen" test.
> 
> I actually did notice a difference when using ensolite, but my doors were also HEAVILY deadened before that went on.


looking to just kill the minor rattles and vibrations i have, and quiet the car down inside a little bit. so far i did my doors with edead v1se2, no foam in the doors yet. just want to continue deadening and dampening. i did notice a huge difference after doing the doors.


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## rockondon (Jan 18, 2008)

tcguy85 said:


> so should i just use a whole bunch of deadener? i'm thinking two layers on my quarter panels (as that seems to be the worst spot by far). and one on the whole floor and one on the hatch floor.


My last project [vibe] used similar amounts. With good results.
My newest. Iv only done the front doors so far ,using ensolite as suggested. And feel it helps more than just mat. But i also used the dirrections about fully closing off the holes. Which i did'nt know before. So that could also be the difference.
Rick's Raamat is great. For price/performance. And the dirrections i mentioned.


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

yea last time i bought deadener i bought Edead v1se2. it worked well but everybody is saying raamat or secondskin is the way to go so i think i will buy a roll of raamat and some sort of foam to absorb some road noise.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I would do as many layers of deadener as it takes, you can afford, or will fit on your door without breaking the hinges. :laughing:

Then add a layer of closed cell over that. Also, put a layer of closed cell inside the door behind the speaker.


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## rockondon (Jan 18, 2008)

azngotskills said:


> Yes a night and day difference but i used the Vertex....i would like to point out that Vertex Barrier Pad and SS LuxuryLiner while serve the same purpose, the VBP is made with much better materials IMO (thicker foam and a more durable MLV layer)


Funny you said that. I contacted Ant before ,he said the VBP was closer to the Luxery Liner Pro. From the website its aparently different foam used from the regular LL..
Still you confirmed that a barrier plus mat is the shnizz.
Thx dude


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> I would do as many layers of deadener as it takes, you can afford, or will fit on your door without breaking the hinges. :laughing:
> 
> Then add a layer of closed cell over that. Also, put a layer of closed cell inside the door behind the speaker.


i might add one more layer of mat to the doors and a layer of foam to them as well but i already did the doors for the most part. want to continue onto the rest now. i think i'll buy a roll of raamat and buy a few of these... https://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/...xU9BNGksXIUNCEO8EFERr0FAIJb4/Moc4wF8
mbxvygJI
cut them up and stick them where i think could use it. lol


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## dbphelps (Jun 30, 2006)

Actually, I am going to hate giving this company credit, but in my TA I used eDead V4, which is 1/4" closed cell foam with a pre-applied adhesive layer.

I must say applying it to either freshly applied Second Skin damplifier or properly prepped stock panels did wonders in either a single layer on all floor surfaces, or in my case I use a layer on the inner door itself as well as layer on the door panel (so it is doubled up) and I didn't have to apply any mat to the inner door at all... I may add that the inner door is all composite material, so it does not have a lot of the resonance issues that sheet metal may have...

All I can say is that in my application I know it made the entire install much more solid, and the car has absoloutly no rattles or resonances even at extreme SPL levels with the windows up (and I have 2 12" TC2+ subs)... Outside the car you can barely tell the type of SPL going on inside the car, windows up of course, and that is at all frequencies, not just bass...

Comparing this to my previous install, with no deadening, with only 2 10" subs, and about 1/4 the total wattage, my previous system could be heard outside of the car with ease (with the windows up of course), and inside the car the midbass was thin, the sub-bass was lacking a bit and there was a ton of rattles and vibrations from everything...

Just something to consider...


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

tcguy85 said:


> i might add one more layer of mat to the doors and a layer of foam to them as well but i already did the doors for the most part. want to continue onto the rest now. i think i'll buy a roll of raamat and buy a few of these... https://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/...xU9BNGksXIUNCEO8EFERr0FAIJb4/Moc4wF8
> mbxvygJI
> cut them up and stick them where i think could use it. lol


That mat actually looks like it might be a viable solution. Though, I wonder what the difference in something "engineered" for audio and something like what you've posted would be for our application. 


No need to keep adding layers _if it's not needed_. That's where the "rap" test comes in. If it sounds hollow, add more deadener. You'd be surprised at just how sporadic resonance can be and how in some places you may have one layer, but other spots within 6" of the first may require a couple or more layers.


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Ensolite isint useless it just needs to be used in conjunction with other items to have proper effects. Ensolite based on design and thickness can only absorb higher frequencies, this is fine, but thicker material is needed for lower frequencies, how low for what thickness, i'm not sure of.....

Beleive i've mentioned this before to you...

I get pretty damn good results with my tC, 2 Raammatt layers inside door, outside metal. Cover entire surface with closed cell foam, 2 more layers directly behind driver mounted in door, Also single layer of 1 1/4" acoustic Eggshell foam, from PE.

In Rear hatch areas and floor, just beat around with a rubber mallet or your fist, listen to the noise, add more where it needs it.

Directly behind front seats, quarter panels are the worst areas for the tC and tail light areas, did the above to it as well, but flipped a second layer of eggshell and glued together for ~2" of just eggshell for roadnoises, and any other areas where the layers could be used without water issues, and allowance for 2" of acoustic treatment with, a single layer of eggshell worked great in tail light and hatch door. So i used eggshell in outside door skin, above water drainage lines 6", inside door cavities behind and around driver mount rear Quarter panels, channel above rear wheels, tail light areas, inside hatch clasp assembly, etc. Also eggshell on inner metal between the surface and the door panel adds a cushion layer for the panel, as a vibration decoupler.

I'd deaden more before you think about ensolite, but thats just me, i plan to add more myself, atleast another layer if not more alone to the doors, may actually be able to run majority of my music without a sub, have tried it a few times yet lack the lowest octaves.


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> That mat actually looks like it might be a viable solution. Though, I wonder what the difference in something "engineered" for audio and something like what you've posted would be for our application.
> 
> 
> No need to keep adding layers _if it's not needed_. That's where the "rap" test comes in. If it sounds hollow, add more deadener. You'd be surprised at just how sporadic resonance can be and how in some places you may have one layer, but other spots within 6" of the first may require a couple or more layers.


i have heard of a few people buying the foam camping mats and sticking them in the doors and having good results.

i know exactly what you mean. my doors make a nice low thud sounds when i tap on them and the rest of the car sounds like a tin can when i tap on the panels. so i'm going to do a layer of mat on the quarters, 2 on the big flat spots, then maybe the floor and trunk floor too. maybe even the hatch itself too. 

i just would like to stick some kind of foam in the quarters while i am in there if i know it will help. the quarters in my car are REAL noisy.


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

demon2091tb said:


> Ensolite isint useless it just needs to be used in conjunction with other items to have proper effects. Ensolite based on design and thickness can only absorb higher frequencies, this is fine, but thicker material is needed for lower frequencies, how low for what thickness, i'm not sure of.....
> 
> Beleive i've mentioned this before to you...
> 
> ...


ok thanks. i will follow that advice. the reason i am asking about foam now is so that i can use the mat and the foam at the same time. i'd rather not rip the whole car apart several times. i wanna do it right the first time. i don't wanna do a layer and then say "**** i still want it a lot quieter". i want to do it once. thats why i am asking. i want to buy enough of everything i need and do this in a weekend. take the interior apart, apply everything, then put it all back together in two days.


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## Second Skin Rep Jon (Oct 5, 2007)

azngotskills said:


> Yes a night and day difference but i used the Vertex....i would like to point out that Vertex Barrier Pad and SS LuxuryLiner while serve the same purpose, the VBP is made with much better materials IMO (thicker foam and a more durable MLV layer)


Not to jack the thread or anything, but LL and VBP are made from two different materials. LL is an open celled foam barrier while VBP is a closed cell foam barrier. And then there is Second Skins Luxury Liner *Pro*, which IS a closed cell foam barrier.

If you aren't sure about installing ensolite, go with LLP, you will definitely hear a difference.


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Doin it in a weekend should be hard at all, i had my car ripped apart during build for almost 2 months, drove around with no rear seat for almost 2 weeks lol. I thought i had plenty of deadener, and acoustic treatments, which i still think i do, easily for a majority of people. I need more than deadener simply to kill some of the heaving my metal is doing on low passeges, but i'm sure theres better things for that. But i'm also using a 50hz 24db xover point and flipping off the sub and really not missing much is a nice point to add, output wise depending on content.

So overbuild, so you don't need to go back in the future and add........Thats what i'm figuring out, and for the car 2 layers just dosent do it.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

tcguy85 said:


> i just would like to stick some kind of foam in the quarters while i am in there if i know it will help. the quarters in my car are REAL noisy.


Mine, too.


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

demon2091tb said:


> Doin it in a weekend should be hard at all, i had my car ripped apart during build for almost 2 months, drove around with no rear seat for almost 2 weeks lol. I thought i had plenty of deadener, and acoustic treatments, which i still think i do, easily for a majority of people. I need more than deadener simply to kill some of the heaving my metal is doing on low passeges, but i'm sure theres better things for that. But i'm also using a 50hz 24db xover point and flipping off the sub and really not missing much is a nice point to add, output wise depending on content.
> 
> So overbuild, so you don't need to go back in the future and add........Thats what i'm figuring out, and for the car 2 layers just dosent do it.


thats my problem, i have never done this before and want to order enough of the right stuff and do it in 2 days. this my my daily driver and will NOT drive the car around in pieces all apart. 

my doors are done other than maybe just adding one more layer of mat just for the hell of it, and then some foam between the plastic and metal panels. i did foam behind the mid already, and the door is sealed off and deadened with what i would say is enough mat. just want to do the floor, hatch area and quarter panels, but i want to get enough and the right stuff and just bang it out in a 2 day weekend, then not have to go back and add more later.


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Mine, too.


my car is a hatch so it's probably even worse than yours. when it rains all i hear is water splashing up on the fender wells. soooooooo annoying!


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

tcguy85 said:


> my car is a hatch so it's probably even worse than yours. when it rains all i hear is water splashing up on the fender wells. soooooooo annoying!


Wow, never hear rain, only when i hit rough road, or divits in the road, actually got a comment from my friend today that my car sounded like a theatre, straight forward projected, and pretty quiet even rolling around at 50mph and he knows nada of audio.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Actually, my b-pillars are a big trouble spot for me. 

I got all this in recently and should have one helluva weekend:


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

demon2091tb said:


> Wow, never hear rain, only when i hit rough road, or divits in the road, actually got a comment from my friend today that my car sounded like a theatre, straight forward projected, and pretty quiet even rolling around at 50mph and he knows nada of audio.


see thats what i want to hear. i want to kill some road noise and make it so i don't hear the water splashing all over the fender wells in the back. i guess the question at hand is, will plain old deadener kill road noise as well or do i need some kind of foam or dampener? i know the mat will kill some road noise but how much.

i am going to use some mat all over but also will use foam or something if it will kill more road noise.


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

The TC is a tough car to make quite, I know as spent a few hundred hours on mine but I do not do things like most would like fill every single body cavity(frame rails, pillars, sills, whole area around the rear wheel wells, etc with $600 worth of imported expanding foam. 

Because my car was going to be an audio comp car as well as run national events in autocross and time trials I had to keep weight to a minimum. I bonded aluminum channel to the outer skin of the doors and sides by the back seat and all the way to the hatch area. Then I used strips of mat, vertically, to cover about half the total surface area, and then covered it all with ensolite and then a layer of 2" acoustical foam. Very low weight, very effective, very much work and a fair amount of expense!!!

I also removed all factory deadening, installed a CF roof, removed every inch of excess wiring, etc..... stock the car weighed around 2950 lbs, I got it down to 2675 with roll cage and a system that made a 138.4db average, on a music track, for 2 minutes and there was not one single vibration, resonance, could barely tell it was playing from outside the car. 

Ensolite is not intended to be a single product that will cure all ills, only a rare few of us ever consider the levels of deadening some of use here will want to achieve and this is supposed to be a car audiophile site! In the real world maybe 1 out of 1000 car audio guys will go as far as some of us here will, the rest, they do not need, understand, desire, etc..... such extreme measures

Ensolite is more than enough for them but not quite enough for the few of us here that are into this the way we are

In the end, it is not the product, it is the dedication to figuring out and completing whatever it takes to achieve your goals and using whatever you have to use. 

My current goal is building a 02 Z06 to weigh no more than 2,750lbs, have 600WHP and go as fast as I can around road race tracks and tow nicely behind my Tundra that will be exceptionally well deadened, have a great sound system and get me to the races in style and comfort. I just wish my business would slow up the growth rate a bit so I could work on the car more, just designed the roll cage and now I need the time to build it!

Rick

P.S.
At least part of Anthony's business is focused on the much more intense audiophile and he has some great products to take care of those into it I recommemd him to many that come to me for advice


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

rockondon said:


> Funny you said that. I contacted Ant before ,he said the VBP was closer to the Luxery Liner Pro. From the website its aparently different foam used from the regular LL..
> Still you confirmed that a barrier plus mat is the shnizz.
> Thx dude


Vertex Barrier Pad and the NEW LuxuryLiner Pro seem more comparable as seen in pictures than the regular LuxuryLiner but havent gotten my hands on the new LL Pro 

RAAMmat for deadening and Ensolite are great products that excel at what they are designed to do!


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

raamaudio said:


> The TC is a tough car to make quite, I know as spent a few hundred hours on mine but I do not do things like most would like fill every single body cavity(frame rails, pillars, sills, whole area around the rear wheel wells, etc with $600 worth of imported expanding foam.
> 
> Because my car was going to be an audio comp car as well as run national events in autocross and time trials I had to keep weight to a minimum. I bonded aluminum channel to the outer skin of the doors and sides by the back seat and all the way to the hatch area. Then I used strips of mat, vertically, to cover about half the total surface area, and then covered it all with ensolite and then a layer of 2" acoustical foam. Very low weight, very effective, very much work and a fair amount of expense!!!
> 
> ...


thanks!!!!! awesome.


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

i'm not on a mission to make the car dead silent inside. i just wanna quiet it down as much as possible for maybe $250-300 or so. not looking to spend hundreds of hours or thousands of dollars. just wanna take care of some key places and lessen what noise i can on a budget.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

tcguy85 said:


> i'm not on a mission to make the car dead silent inside. i just wanna quiet it down as much as possible for maybe $250-300 or so. not looking to spend hundreds of hours or thousands of dollars.


You can easily do that with either Rick or Ant's products. 

Just hit the problem areas. I'd say order 3x as much deadener as closed cell. No scienctific equation... just a rudementary estimation. I'm sure if you gave either of those guys your budget and gave them an idea of what you wanted they would gladly take care of you.


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## quest51210 (Dec 27, 2007)

azngotskills said:


> Vertex Barrier Pad and the NEW LuxuryLiner Pro seem more comparable as seen in pictures than the regular LuxuryLiner but havent gotten my hands on the new LL Pro
> 
> RAAMmat for deadening and Ensolite are great products that excel at what they are designed to do!


what do you know? you dont keep anything long enough to install...


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## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

rockondon said:


> Was the difference after the luxery liner night and day.????


It got a little better in my car. But my car is a freakin noise trap...


Everything I've read indicates open cell is a superior noise absorber to closed cell... Hell, manufacturers use open cell foam in cars for noise reduction sometimes


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

quest51210 said:


> what do you know? you dont keep anything long enough to install...


LOL true true but you cant remove and reapply more deadening and acoustical mats...they just stick so damn well  They are constants in my car that dont change, actually making an order for the new Camry


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

tell me about sticking... i removed one old bitumen mat last night and have a couple of very minor creases in the door skin to show for it  OK, you can't see them if you're not looking, but still.

I was personally planning on a couple of sheets (18" x 24") per door, a cut-up camping mat inside (on the wet part) and then some cotton-fluff-cloth (no idea what it's called) on the inside behind the door cards. Some more of this fluffy stuff in the roof on top of the internal headliner, Noxudol on the roof itself and in the rear quarter panels. Then more eggcrate in the rear panels, a couple of sheets on the trunk floor and some more closed-cell underneath the new trunk floor. I'll try and save 2 sheets per wheelarch inside. 

The way I see it: the butyl-based product stops the vibration, the fluff stops vibration that starts from moving. I've also just picked up a couple of cheap fleece plaids from Ikea, they may go in for testing. They're thin and should fit nicely directly behind the trim. every little bit helps...

I think 2 days is pushing it, unless they're damn long and you start Friday night. Do you already know how to remove the trim? If not, I'd seriously consider "practice" - that way, you'll also find out beforehand that you're missing important tools.

Bret


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

raamaudio said:


> Rick
> 
> P.S.
> At least part of Anthony's business is focused on the much more intense audiophile and he has some great products to take care of those into it I recommemd him to many that come to me for advice


Rick, thanks for chiming in. You are a class act and an asset to the industry.


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## Fixtion (Aug 25, 2006)

[B said:


> rockondon[/B];365878]My last project [vibe] used similar amounts. With good results.
> My newest. Iv only done the front doors so far ,using ensolite as suggested. And feel it helps more than just mat. *But i also used the dirrections about fully closing off the holes*. Which i did'nt know before. So that could also be the difference.
> Rick's Raamat is great. For price/performance. And the dirrections i mentioned.


*suggestion.road.noise*

read architectural material on: 
+*sound damping*
+*scenarios*/*cases*
+*methods*
+*walls **insulation*

from the above you'll gain that protection from road noise can be affect by the smallest factor. *cracks*!

*example*

say you have 132in. of cracks lengths at the door. each 1/16in. wide.

132x(1/16)=8.25in.

8.25in./4=2.063in. 

*results*

that's like having a *[ ]* *2.063in x 2.063in hole* to the outside.

*conclusion*

if you've deadend the hell out of your door, you still have a 2.1in. x 2.1in. hole in your door letting outside noise in...
you can build a highly insulated wall in architecture with windows, doors, etc.
if those additions involve cracks, you've shot the efficiency of the walls acoustic damping atleast 50% . . . wasted money

mass is one factor to sound absorbtion, air to the outside is another. among other factors.

*additional.notes*



[B said:


> tcguy85[/B];365956]i'm not on a mission to make the car dead silent inside. i just wanna quiet it down as much as possible for maybe $250-300 or so. not looking to spend hundreds of hours or thousands of dollars. just wanna take care of some key places and lessen what noise i can on a budget.


cover up them holes sir! apply something on both sides of the holes to create an air space, *sound trap space*. 
architects do that between rooms that share a bathroom. 
you can't hear the other room, but when you go in the space between them, you can hear both rooms clearly. 

*every product has it use, in this case ensolite is useless*.

*-fixtion*


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Fixtion said:


> *suggestion.road.noise*
> 
> read architectural material on:
> +*sound damping*
> ...


but the cracks at the windows are generally baffled, at least a little bit, so it's going to have less impact on things than leaving the access holes open, even if you were just to leave a hole open that is the same size as you've calculated for some big ass doors.

Using a double layer with air space system to close the access holes may be better than not, but I'm not sure how that does anything about the cracks at the windows problems. Building design offers some opportunities that aren't going to be possible in a car and at some point you need to accept some compromises between the ideal and reality.

1/8" closed cell foam is useless as a barrier the same way shoe boxes are useless as bricks - not meant to do that. That's actually less true for the foam than it is for the shoe boxes, but neither is ideal.

In every case that I can think of, you want to start with a vibration damper. If you allow the body panels to become excited (strange image, I know) anything else will be less effective.

If you are trying to block noise, particularly from a direct source - engine, exhaust, etc. you will want to use a barrier. This means a very dense, continuous layer that is held away from the substrate by a layer f foam so that vibrations are not transmitted from one to the other. Open celled foam is better for this under ideal conditions, but again, car use doesn't always qualify. If it might be wet, closed cell is an appropriate compromise. If it will be compressed, by your feet on the floor as an example, a more resilient closed cell foam is probably going to be better.

That high density layer can be anything, but is usually lead or mass loaded vinyl, which is just vinyl with some heavy minerals embedded to make it more dense. Lead is hard to find and MLV isn't. It is also possible to roll your own using foam and sound deadener. Two layers of sound deadener on top of a single layer of foam is very close in density and thickness to MLV. You'll have to figure out how it compares in cost. One layer of deadener on top of a layer of foam will be a less effective, less expensive option.

Whatever material you choose for this, a barrier needs to completely block the source of the noise. Picture the heat shield on the space shuttle. Anything less will be a compromise but may still do what you need.

I always suggest at least one layer of closed cell foam over vibration damper if you aren't going to be using a barrier. It's light and inexpensive. It has a slight barrier effect and reduces reflections - some of the most annoying noise in a car is the result of high frequenci9es bouncing around. It also creates less open airspace inside trim panels. It's fantastic for gasketing all sorts of things to reduce rattles and filling small voids. It's all about using the right tool for the job. Oh yeah, it makes the carpet extra nice and squishy.


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## CGG318 (Apr 9, 2007)

tcguy85 said:


> my car is a hatch so it's probably even worse than yours. when it rains all i hear is water splashing up on the fender wells. soooooooo annoying!





tcguy85 said:


> see thats what i want to hear. i want to kill some road noise and make it so i don't hear the water splashing all over the fender wells in the back. i guess the question at hand is, will plain old deadener kill road noise as well or do i need some kind of foam or dampener? i know the mat will kill some road noise but how much.
> 
> i am going to use some mat all over but also will use foam or something if it will kill more road noise.




Where are your vents located? Although we have completely different vehicles, I get alot of road noise when it rains and it's coming from the rear vents.


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## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

Autiophile said:


> Now that my car is getting more silent, new noises are catching my attention. When I can work up the courage I'm going to tear into one of the side airbag compartments to find some little noisy piece that is annoying the hell out of me.


Doesn't that suck? I'm tearing my hair out trying to figure out how to kill this window noise from the window corners. couldn't hear it before all this stuff.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

I found ensolite was best used as an isollator or gasket to quiet the noise of two panels, cables, things in general rattling against each other. Other than that, it only works in the upper high frequencies

You need to do some research on different products and how they are used. Study NRC ratings, STC ratings (they are not the same BTW). Google it.

You've got options now:

-absorbers
-blockers/barriers
-deadeners

You have to figure out what you need and why.

Cascade has some amazing products as I can see-much better looking results IMO, but you will pay for it.
Foxpro5 and 6spdcoupe carries cascade and Foxpro5 also has his Vertex barrier pad.
Second Skin has many products as well and Rick at Raamat has streamlined his product line for the basics.


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## QtrHorse (Oct 17, 2007)

MidnightCE said:


> Doesn't that suck? I'm tearing my hair out trying to figure out how to kill this window noise from the window corners. couldn't hear it before all this stuff.


This may not be what you are talking about but it helps for wind noise.

The rubber trim around the door frames get worn sometimes. A easy fix it to install some silicone/ rubber tubing inside of them so they will not crush as easy. It makes it as if they are new again. We diesel truck owners on another forum do it and it makes a huge difference in wind noise. We use 3/8in but you may need smaller.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

QtrHorse said:


> This may not be what you are talking about but it helps for wind noise.
> 
> The rubber trim around the door frames get worn sometimes. A easy fix it to install some silicone/ rubber tubing inside of them so they will not crush as easy. It makes it as if they are new again. We diesel truck owners on another forum do it and it makes a huge difference in wind noise. We use 3/8in but you may need smaller.


Hey that's a good tip. Awesome. I have a slight leak on the drivers side and this just may do the trick. Thanks!


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## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

QtrHorse said:


> This may not be what you are talking about but it helps for wind noise.
> 
> The rubber trim around the door frames get worn sometimes. A easy fix it to install some silicone/ rubber tubing inside of them so they will not crush as easy. It makes it as if they are new again. We diesel truck owners on another forum do it and it makes a huge difference in wind noise. We use 3/8in but you may need smaller.


That, sir, is a great idea.

You might have just saved me $142 on new halo weatherstripping. Hell, I can probably use the stuff from the Pet store for fish tanks.


Damn these frameless windows. Even more of a pain when the top is removable.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Autiophile said:


> When I can work up the courage I'm going to tear into one of the side airbag compartments to find some little noisy piece that is annoying the hell out of me.


I did this last year. I had some plastic hosing inside the rear airbag area causing rattles from both sides. I was a nervous wreck pulling the panels off, but now it's not a big deal at all. One swift hit of the hammer on the SRS logo and it pulls right off. As a precaution I disconnect the battery for a few minutes though. I've heard that helps to disable all that stuff. Dunno if it's true, but I'd hate to find out the hard way.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

tcguy85 said:


> my car is a hatch so it's probably even worse than yours. when it rains all i hear is water splashing up on the fender wells. soooooooo annoying!


One cool thing honda did on mine, they CARPETED the inside of the wheelwells! It works great, it's some tough stuff and cleans remarkably easy with a simple spray of water. I believe it helps.


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

There are many tricks to making a car quiet, the silicone replacement for gaskets is great. I normally just remove the stock gaskets, install some double sided foam glazing tape and reinstall the gaskets, looks clean, does the job and stays put. Glazing tape will hold huge windows in place when properly applied, cool stuff really

--------------------

Here is what I have done in high heat areas.

On horizontal surfaces I use a layer of mat then a layer of foam, then go back and add a layer of mat on top of the foam but only in the specific areas needed like along the route of the exhaust (most do not need it but some vehicles certainly do) and sometimes on the transmission tunnel. Then I add a second layer of foam over that, mat/foam/mat/foam, incredibly effective! I worked this out in my buddies F350 with all the Banks goodies, well over 800ft lbs of torque, it would cook your feet in the passenger seat and the AC could not keep the truck cool, once done, forgot it was ever hot, really

On the roof of a project car, CF roof, did not need deadening but needed thermal protection and to be none reflective, I used one layer of foam, one layer of aluminum foil and another layer of the foam, very very effective yet barely any weight. This was a national class autocross, time trial and audio comp car all in one.

------------------

I prefer to target specific problem areas and take them to the level they need to be instead of the shotgun approach and go nuts everywhere(very often ending up with far more than needed in many areas and sometimes not as effectively done in many others

I have used ALLOT of materials in some situations, like having dual midbasses and 600 watts per door in my old Tacoma, 3 layers of mat all over, 5 layers on 2/3, 7 layers on less than 1/3, thickest near the speakers of course. Even then I used the most where it needed it the most and the least where I could do so and still be effective. (I also used 1/8" aluminum channels secured to the inside of inner door metal and very strong baffles as well as perf aluminum over the access holes, etc........)

----------------------

Another little trick, easy, fast, effective. 

Use a dab of silicone sealer on all door pops, where they connect to the door and where they connect to the panel, not allot, they will still come off but they will never rattle. I use that technique all over the car, not just doors, and a small bead on overlapping panels, have the edge of a panel that can vibrate against the metal? I run tiny bead of silicone and wipe it to a concave shape(been doing this for 30+ years, learned it from a great cabinet maker so I am very clean at it) It will meld the two surfaces together to look much nicer and does the job well.

----------------------

I always have foam tape, silicone, tie wraps, etc, right by me when deadening a vehicle

Rick


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Many just do not want to take the time to add layers of products, etc, cool, buy some of Ant's great ones ready to install, I most highly support doing so!

Rick


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

MidnightCE said:


> Everything I've read indicates open cell is a superior noise absorber to closed cell... Hell, manufacturers use open cell foam in cars for noise reduction sometimes


If you look at the actual NRC values, they don't vary that much.

Open cell: the cells of the foam matrix are open which sort of creates more of labyrinth for sound to get "trapped" in. Not as dense and more "air like" than closed cell.

Closed cell: the cells are closed and form tiny pockets of air. This will set up more of a barrier effect than its open cell counterpart. Closed cell will have a definite edge in density and the ability to repel water. 

If you use either to block sound, you are going to be disappointed.

If you want to get super technical and abide by the 1/4 wavelength theory, then 1/8" foam will absorb sound waves down to about 13k. This is because in order for the foam to work, it must convert sound energy into heat. Of course all foams are not the same material nor do they have the same surface mass or density, so you'd have to look at the actual NRC test for the product in question. But good luck finding an NRC on 1/8" CC foam. I don't think manufacturers even test it because it so poor at absorbing anything.


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Open cell foam in areas where water can get to it, bad idea.

Closed cell foam with a rough surface reflects allot less acoustical energy than a smooth surface, it tends to help break up the higher frequencies. 

I use actual thick panels of real acoustical foam inside cavities that are waterproof and up under the dash, allowing for proper air flow of course so the ventilation system works. 

It is best to use what can be acceptable in various areas of the vehicle, no doubt, I do so all the time myself.

Guess what percentage of the public will also do so???? Barely measurable

For the true audiophiles on this and a few other forums, taking the time to apply the best techniques and materials to each area of the vehicle is paramount to reaching the ultimate level of audio reproduction quality which far more connected to reduced road noise than many have considered. 

One thing often overlooked is the various reflective surfaces in most vehicles, leather upholstery being a major culprit, when I go all out I cover all I can with fabric, carpet, etc and have foam of the right type under it. 

It is also possibly to use the glass in the side windows instead of fighting it, I learned this from Matt and Eric at ID, the kick aiming guide I have posted many times comes directly from their methods and from my experience in doing so.

Rick


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

CGG318 said:


> Where are your vents located? Although we have completely different vehicles, I get alot of road noise when it rains and it's coming from the rear vents.


The vents are located below and behind the outside panels on the bottom of the car, just behind the rear finder wells about 3" down inside a cavity, they are on both driver and passenger. I don't have any problems with rain splashing, same car.

As it seems to me majority of people don't want to put the time into it, dosent take long if done correctly......just takes some ~Time! And seems to be more and more people don't want to put the time into getting a good base to work from.

BTW rick i still see your using that ol trusty tC guide, same one i used when i did my car 2.5yrs ago lol.  Glad to see ya


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## Flyinbanana (Feb 2, 2008)

I currently drive what must be one of the noisiest cars around, an Evo IX RS which eliminates all or most of the factory sound deadener. With just a slight amount of Damplifier and the factory padding on the door panel, I detect no noise or vibration. My efforts will be focused on the rear of the car and the firewall. I'm especially surprised at the amount of noise that eminates from the rear wheels wells, lessened somewhat by new all-season tires vs. the OEM tires that howl.

In any event, I have both closed cell foam, neoprene, and a sheet of Volara foam (claimed to be a noise blocker anyway) and will add material in stages in as an unscientific way to see what works best in my application...


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

tcguy85 said:


> see thats what i want to hear. i want to kill some road noise and make it so i don't hear the water splashing all over the fender wells in the back. i guess the question at hand is, will plain old deadener kill road noise as well or do i need some kind of foam or dampener? i know the mat will kill some road noise but how much.
> 
> i am going to use some mat all over but also will use foam or something if it will kill more road noise.


Here's a homework assignment for the OP (and for anyone else that's truly interested in the answer.)

Physics tells us that foam is something sound waves must "fight" through, but the ability of foam to do this is frequency-dependent. 

Therefore, on paper, how many layers of 1/8" closed-cell foam (like Ensolite) will it take to completely absorb (NRC value of 1) aggressive road noise at 125 hz??

Here's a wavelength calculator: http://www.mcsquared.com/wavelength.htm
Here's a NRC chart: http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

my guess is ca. 30. that's a hell of a lot.

Bret


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

bretti_kivi said:


> my guess is ca. 30. that's a hell of a lot.
> 
> Bret


What does 30 refer to? You mean 30"? 

Hint: 125 hz wave is 108" or 9 feet long.


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

no, i meant thirty layers. but... lemme think some more.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

62 layers? Just taking the density of overkill (~20kg/m^3) and try to find something close. Then multiple the thickness by whatever I need to get the coefficient to equal 1. 


Man, I don't even know where to start. With NRC, it's an average, so can you even get 1 @ 125hz? I don't see anything on that list that comes close. Especially not with the density I'm using. 

Wanna tell us kids? I'm learning something new, though.


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## Fixtion (Aug 25, 2006)

i suggest everyone sit in on a semester of environmental systems for architecture majors.

learn all these topics!

+acoustics
+electrical
+ventilation
+solar options
+green architecture
+green lifestyles
+business
+etc

it's really helped me make sense of all that's involved in car audio.

*-fixtion*


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Fixtion said:


> i suggest everyone sit in on a semester of environmental systems for architecture majors.
> 
> learn all these topics!
> 
> ...


So has studying rocket propulsion and airplane stability & control. 

Well, not really...


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## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

Oh, Rick,

If you find the magic bullet that quiets down a 'Vette please let me know.


So far the bst thing I've done is stuff the front half of the rear wheel wells with loose fiberglass.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I have never believed that ensolite "absorbs" sound. I think it works more to prevent standing waves inside a door panel, prevent high freq vibrations between panels, and lower the resonating frequency of panels. If it is successful at those three things it is worthwhile in my book.

It is mentioned a few times here that closed cell foam acts like a barrier. In that regard you could say it also helps to reduce road noise. After a single layer of raammat BXT and a layer of ensolite on top in each of my doors what I noticed was that wind noise now sounded louder. Instead of hearing the roar of the road you now hear the whistle of wind passing by the rear view mirrors. I didn't hear that before.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> 62 layers? Just taking the density of overkill (~20kg/m^3) and try to find something close. Then multiple the thickness by whatever I need to get the coefficient to equal 1.
> 
> 
> Man, I don't even know where to start. With NRC, it's an average, so can you even get 1 @ 125hz? I don't see anything on that list that comes close. Especially not with the density I'm using.
> ...


I like the way you're thinking. 

Yes, NRC is an average of 5 different frequency bands. But you can still get a very good estimation by looking at the individual values at different frequencies. And there all several products that are 1 and above at 125 hz. Look again. 

62 layers = 7.75"

The answer I was going for is based on the 1/4 wavelength theory. In order for an absorber to turn noise into heat, it must be greater than or equal to 1/4 the wavelength of the frequency in question. 

125 hz = 108"
1/4 of 108" = 27"
8 sheets per inch x 27 inches = 216 sheets  

Now the question is, do we really need over one foot of closed cell foam to completely eliminate 125 hz and above? On paper, yes. In real life, no.

This is how I was explained how closed cell foam in particular is not very good at absorbing sound waves by the smart guys that really understand it from an acoustics forum I'm on:



> Closed cell foam doesn't absorb well since absorption happens in the foam with gas flow resistance in the cells. Hence there must be a shortcut to the environment and the air must be able to flow through the material in order to experience resistance which dissipates/transforms the energy.


Here's some more data:


> Because CCF is generally more rigid and dense than fiberglass insulation, it does not absorb sound as well as fiberglass. This is especially true when one compares noise reduction coefficients and sound transmission classification between the materials. Laboratory tests performed inreverberant chambers confirm that discharge sound values are several decibels higher when using CCF than with fiberglass product. See Acoustic Property Comparison chart.


As you can see, the NRC of 1" CCF at 125 hz isn't even .2. Not good...


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## lostdaytomorrow (Jan 26, 2007)

FoxPro5 said:


> I like the way you're thinking.
> 
> Yes, NRC is an average of 5 different frequency bands. But you can still get a very good estimation by looking at the individual values at different frequencies. And there all several products that are 1 and above at 125 hz. Look again.
> 
> ...


What acoustics forum? I'd like to read up on it. PM if you want. Thanks.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

FoxPro5 said:


> I like the way you're thinking.
> 
> Yes, NRC is an average of 5 different frequency bands. But you can still get a very good estimation by looking at the individual values at different frequencies. And there all several products that are 1 and above at 125 hz. Look again.
> 
> ...


Where did you find that chart? Was it on the page you linked? I went through it pretty good I thought and the only section I saw about closed cell was another link to a forum which had a whole lot of stuff I didn't care to try to understand at that point.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

PDF file with chart: http://www.enviro-tec.com/pdf/catalog/WP-ClosedCellFoam.pdf

Notice the use of CCF in the paper: insulation. 

So now if CCF does a poor job of absorbing sound, what is it's real use? 

As Chuyler mentioned, CCF is better at blocking/diffusing sound, but there's a fundamental problem here. Anyone care to guess?


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Engineers and wanna be engineers crack me up sometimes

Reminds me of a buddy that manages all the new hires from MIT, etc, at a real rocket plant. They come in knowing everything, in their minds that is, and get sent to a special section where they are given make believe projects that he has the final word on whether or not they pass muster. The average time in play
school is usually around a year, a few get out early and go to work on real projects, the others mostly either get let go or quit because they just cannot live with answering to him, being that he is "uneducated" and only has 30+ years experience as well as trusted by all the "real" engineering staff.

Of course engineering is and incredibly important field of study and which we owe a huge dept of gratitude for all the cools things in our lives, it is just not the be all and end all some tend to think it is, real world experience, degreed or not, is also vital and of great value

(If I could of put up with all the BS crap they make you take to get that piece of paper I would been a great engineer, many times I wish I would of just done it!)

Rick


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

raamaudio said:


> Engineers and wanna be engineers crack me up sometimes
> 
> Reminds me of a buddy that manages all the new hires from MIT, etc, at a real rocket plant. They come in knowing everything, in their minds that is, and get sent to a special section where they are given make believe projects that he has the final word on whether or not they pass muster. The average time in play
> school is usually around a year, a few get out early and go to work on real projects, the others mostly either get let go or quit because they just cannot live with answering to him, being that he is "uneducated" and only has 30+ years experience as well as trusted by all the "real" engineering staff.
> ...


Won't disagree with you there. Some of these guys are bonafied nut jobs. They know WAY too much.  

But hey, when you have a $100,000 home studio or state of the art sound system in your pad, you MIGHT want to know EXACTLY why, where and how to place those foam wedges, which thickness of ceiling tile to consider, double-wall barrier mass, and on and on. I saw a $1000 sound proof door being constructed last week. It blew my mind how dense and heavy it was. Yea, a door. 

There's so much science behind it, it's mind-boggling...and it's easy to get lost in the numbers.

My whole point bringing this stuff on this forum is to encourage anyone spending time or money on these type of projects is to think critically, use the science, plan ahead. Nothing worse than packing a bunch of random crap in your car only to find out it is, indeed, worthless.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

I have a buddy, who will remain nameless, that is an EE that graduated with a 4.0 out of 4.0. Consistently dusted me on tests... He calls one night in near tears... "I tried to put in that amp and receiver that I bought..." "The fuse kept blowing so I wrapped it in aluminum foil..." "Now the whole car is smoking..." "WHAT DO I DO!...."

After telling him to pull the battery sit tight until I go there, I showed up and we redid a few wires in the harness, prayed, and hooked the battery back up. No smoke...

Any engineer worth his salt will tell you that college did not teach them how to be an engineer just how to think like one. What you do from there is what seperates you from the pack.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

FoxPro5 said:


> My whole point bringing this stuff on this forum is to encourage anyone spending time or money on these type of projects is to think critically, use the science, plan ahead. Nothing worse than packing a bunch of random crap in your car only to find out it is, indeed, worthless.


I agree, I hate wasting money, when you combine the science with experience, then you get to stop wasting your money.


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

I agree, really

Since I do not like to think that hard I just use my ears and they are really well trained now. BUT, I am to lazy to go to the extremes I used to, once I have gone a bit to deep into something I am off onto other challenges. I love a nice quiet vehicle and a really nice sounding system but know what it takes to get it great for the least amount of effort and cost which is what I choose to do. 

It would probably surprise you how many times I talk people into buying less material and try to get them to focus on a better use of what they do get. Not to many come in with the right idea, most either want to little or to much and plan the wrong way to use it. The ones that want to much usually plan on the shotgun approach but still leave many things not properly attended to. My job is to get them to tell me what they are after and then to guide them along the way to achieve their goals(though it nearly always far exceeds them if done right but that is because they have not experienced anything like it before). 

Very, very few would ever consider deadening the way I do my own vehicles, I have found methods that take them where they need to be and within their budgets and incentive levels and nearly all report back just how pleased they are with the results, it really makes my day

Rick


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## Fixtion (Aug 25, 2006)

durwood said:


> I agree, I hate wasting money, when you combine the science with experience, then you get to stop wasting your money.



*correction* you have scientific proof _to_ waste money! 

**


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

so, let's go back a couple of steps.

1. Butyl mats are for stopping the panels resonanting at low frequencies. 
2. Adding "liquid" (sludge) can help to limit the higher frequencies.
3. ClosedCell is kinda OK when you need to use it (in "wet" areas), but open is more effective at damping, simply because it is easier for the waves to get trapped in the open pores (oversimplifying, i think, but hey )
4. Fiberglass / rockwool inside hollow sections (like the trunk lid) should also be pretty effective
5. removing or reducing the source of the noise is also an option

but the bottom line would be that a combination of materials in different places is probably the right way to go, as they all do different things and "YMMV", right?

Bret


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## dcarwin (Feb 2, 2008)

Does enclosing open-cell foam inside a ziploc bag (for example, or saran wrap) completely defeat it's purpose / ability to absorb?

I am thinking about budget techniques for waterproofing open cell foam.


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Close cell foam with a rough surface texture is far more than "kind of ok"

I used it exclusively all throughout my Tacoma and I have yet to be in a quieter vehicle. It was in the truck when I beat a world champ at a SoCal comp judged by a prior IASCA president, 2 months later I beat him again in a new vehicle he built to redeem himself as I embarrassed him in front of some really big bucks customers the first time. 

My one and only time to go to finals I was aced out by politics so I quite going but I had 5 magazines listen to my truck and wanted to publish it, I picked the best one, 7 page feature in Mobile Entertainment and they loved it but not even tuned well when they heard it. 
---------------------------------------------

I also replaced all the vinyl with fabric, used a dash mat, and many other steps in the whole package deal of really deadening every aspect of the car, something most fail to accomplish, even on here where we have far more true enthusiasts that just about everywhere. 

---------------------------------------------
All this talk is interesting, insightful and well intended but most of it is not backed up by hard core real world experience so it only has so much merit
---------------------------------------------

Here is a little test for you to consider, strip a car out completely, use all the mat product you are going to use, the more covered the better, then just try to have normal conversation, quite a noisy place to do so.

Then line it all with something like ensolite with a rough surface, have the same conversation, there is a huge difference and that is real world, not a bunch of numbers, speculation, assumption, well meaning or not. 

---------------------------------------------

I am being a bit defensive right now and for allot more than what it may appear and infact, I do very little business with the hard core audio community compared to the huge amount I do outside of this world

I am here because the general gist of this thread is just plain wrong and misleading which is a disservice to those that may want a simple and cost effective way to improve their vehicles and are not of the type to go to the extremes only a very few here would even consider.

---------------------------------------------

I do however enjoy the disscusions going on, great to know I am not the only obbessed guy around

I just like things to be a bit more correct

Rick

If anybody takes offense to my typo's, Piss Off


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Be very careful where you use open cell products, though not directly exposed to the elements some areas can get rather damp due to condensation

Rick


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

> Here is a little test for you to consider, strip a car out completely, use all the mat product you are going to use, the more covered the better, then just try to have normal conversation, quite a noisy place to do so.
> 
> Then line it all with something like ensolite with a rough surface, have the same conversation, there is a huge difference and that is real world, not a bunch of numbers, speculation, assumption, well meaning or not.


I guess it depends if your main noise is coming from outside of the cabin (IE motor, tire noise and windage) versus a nagging back seat passenger.

Personally I would rather spend my time and effort keeping the noise out.

Generally there is enough soft furnishing to take car or the various in-cabin noise. However this is not to preclude that it can't be improved on.

Put the furnishings back in and compare it to a before and after RTA response, driving on the same road, and I guarantee you a major improvement.



If you take the time to measure the noise inside a moving vehicle, 50 -250 Hz will be a minimum of 70 dB. (more like 90 dB)
Any gains in this area will play major gains for moving vehicle audio listening, however they will not help you win car audio competitions.

Point
SQ competitions are not useful for a moving vehicle audio.

When I have a home audio system not more than twenty yards from my car, I perceive little benefit "testing" it in the driveway. Each to their own.

Use the right tool for the job.


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Abmolech

"Close cell foam with a rough surface texture is far more than "kind of ok"

I used it exclusively all throughout my Tacoma and I have yet to be in a quieter vehicle. "

Maybe you missed that post, I still have the truck, if you are ever in Utah I will take you out for a nice quiet ride

I should of said quieter riding, driving, etc, vehicle though, sorry for not doing so, it is what I meant.

Rick


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

I achieved a measured 22 db drop in noise (50 -250 Hz)
through the use of blockers and decouplers.

Mine is an average of 52 dB (50 to 250 Hz) on coarse road and 60 miles per hour.
How about you measure yours?


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## lostdaytomorrow (Jan 26, 2007)

Abmolech said:


> I achieved a measured 22 db drop in noise (50 -250 Hz)
> through the use of blockers and decouplers.
> 
> Mine is an average of 52 dB (50 to 250 Hz) on coarse road and 60 miles per hour.
> How about you measure yours?


Will you share with us what blockers and decouplers you have used in your own vehicle please?


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

lostdaytomorrow said:


> blockers and decouplers


Mass Loaded Vinyl is one of the more useful products for going on the floor.

A combo of deadener and MLV on top is even better. There are some reviews of it floating around. Luxury Liner Pro or Vertex are some brands.


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Great results and I do appologize, you are one of but a very small handful of guys to ever go to the level you have, I respect that very much. 

Question or two though, calibrated mic, single location, averaged, tested on the same road, same weather conditions, etc........

Way to many variables to be directly comparable but it seems your homework paid off, very cool really
------------------------------
I figured why not, give the old Taco a run around the area, plenty of noisy roads here. 

But, I have not driven it since last fall when my friends wife ran into a trailer with it, got snowed in and sitting in the driveway all winter waiting to be fixed. I just went to start it up, battery was dead, hooked up my charger/starter, won't start, alarm brain died so I have to tear out the dash to get to it, not going to happen for some time, I have much more important things to deal with right now. 

I wanted to go test it, really, never done so before, gave up on instruments back when I realized how useless my Audio control SA whatever model(newest at the time) was for real sound, all it was good for was a basic reference point. The very best systems I have heard where I got to see the plot looked nothing like a smooth curve and at the time I was listening to some of the top cars ever and tuned by the best, far better at tuning than I will ever be. 

--------------------

I do hope you understand that in the grand scheme of things, as far as others are concerned, your accomplishments, and mine, have very little relevance as so few will ever venture into such territory, just not in their nature. For those that do, I recommend them other products, other methods, anything I can to help them out. I just do not(not saying you are try to convince them I know the only way to do this or that other very well tried and proven products are not effective(especially when pure speculation or not properly used).

In the end, if somebody is satisfied with their efforts at whatever level that is, that is a successful venture for all involved

Rick


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

I will say this. I have had many conversations with Rick over the phone. Many indepth about sound deadening this or that. He has always recommended what he felt would work best even if he did not sell it. 

He has also asked me what I used for this or that and if it worked.

So kudos to Rick. He does not always push ensolite.

JUST an FYI about Rick.


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## Milos (Mar 8, 2008)

FoxPro5 said:


> PDF file with chart: http://www.enviro-tec.com/pdf/catalog/WP-ClosedCellFoam.pdf
> 
> Notice the use of CCF in the paper: insulation.
> 
> ...


Pardon my newbishness here as this is like my new guy first post on this forum. :blush: 

I have to say that is some excellent data i've never seen before. Sure glad I know this now be for spending money on my upcoming job. 

By what you said so far, it looks like the problem with the foam blocking sound is that its not solid enough for that job. It seems to me that it would need to be dense like wood or heavy metal to do that?? Probably the wrong answer but i just wanted to try anyways.


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Thanks 

I do want to make this perfectly clear, though it could seem that way I am here trying to promote Ensolite, I sell so much I have a hard time keeping it in stock!

But, some of the things said here are not entirely accurate and thus can lead some to believe it is of no or little value which is hardly the case. It is not the very best material on the market if you are going all out, fine, no worries, it is however excellent when used as prescribed in my HOW TO guide far more than some here seem to "believe" without really "knowing". This could lead some into spending more than they need to achieve their goals or not getting enough material, etc. not something I like to see happen as many really do not have big budgets for their chosen hobby, passion, whatever it means to them.

For those with bigger wallets and want the best possible, there are manf that support them and the first I always recommend is Anthony right here on this forum

My time on this forum today probably cost me many times more in lost revenue due to not being on top of my own business than I will make in sales here in quite some time, I am hear because I want to help others know the reality, not just the numbers and big terminology game going on here. Not meaning to sound harsh, everyone is well intentioned, maybe some not quite as real world informed or thinking at the level most of us operate in

For those that want to go all out, go all out, by all means

(How many here laid down the big bucks for Rainbow Refs and had to lose weight for a few months to do so, I do understand all out

Rick


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

Calibrated earth works microphone.
Single microphone in the passenger listening position.
Test average of ten "runs" over a mile of road (1 minute)
Weather was fine and wind below 20 MPH.

I am not "knocking" Ensolite, but it would be fair to say that it has a specific use rather than a general use.
We need to know the coefficient of absorption to the best use as an absorber/reflector (IE its diffusion rate), and then the velocity of the wave to determine how much attenuation may be possible.

Reducing the noise floor with absorbers in a car (50-250 Hz range) is implausible.


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

> Close cell foam with a rough surface texture is far more than "kind of ok"


and there's the difference. the surface texture. Which would also help the logic behind "dash mats help", as does interior trim (break up the echo and provide lots of nice, absorbent surfaces). So alcantara (ecsaine) on the dash would also probably help. As probably does my reindeer-skin moonroof blind.


> Does enclosing open-cell foam inside a ziploc bag (for example, or saran wrap) completely defeat it's purpose / ability to absorb?


I would have thought so, because then the waves bounce off the bag.

@rick; please don't misunderstand me, I'm looking for an effective, cost-efficient way of dropping the noise floor. That's it. I have difficulties sourcing quite a lot of this stuff due to where I live, so I am trying to understand how it works and where I should be using it. Then i can work out if it "has to be product x" or if there's an alternative that may be 90% effective which I can actually get hold of.
No, I don't have a specific goal in mind. Except "quiet". I think I am beginning to understand how to reach that; but then again, I have the space and tools to take the car apart again and again if it's not effective enough.

Bret


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

bretti_kivi said:


> @rick; please don't misunderstand me, I'm looking for an effective, cost-efficient way of dropping the noise floor. That's it. I have difficulties sourcing quite a lot of this stuff due to where I live, so I am trying to understand how it works and where I should be using it. Then i can work out if it "has to be product x" or if there's an alternative that may be 90% effective which I can actually get hold of.
> No, I don't have a specific goal in mind. Except "quiet". I think I am beginning to understand how to reach that; but then again, I have the space and tools to take the car apart again and again if it's not effective enough.
> Bret


I can guarantee that you don't need a specific brand name. Ensolite is a perfect example - there are many different Ensolite formulations. The one we refer to generically as "Ensolite" is 1/8" Ensolite MLC. It has become a generic product to the car audio community because Rick has been selling it for years at a price that makes it pretty much a waste of time to look for other sources. It's known to work for this purpose and is sufficiently durable to survive in a car. Same goes for Second Skin's Overkill. I have no idea what brand it starts out as, but it too works well in this application. There are probably hundreds of closed cell foams sold in sheet form and relatively few meet our requirements. It's possible to find alternate sources, but is likely to turn into one of those projects were a day's worth of research saves you a couple of dollars.

While it is instructive to look at how 1/8" closed cell foam compares to several feet of open cell, that isn't how it should be used. Gut your car and treat the sheet metal and probably the backs of the trim panels with vibration damper. Replace the trim and go for a ride and listen to some music. Now gut it again. Cover everything with a layer or two of closed cell foam. Replace the trim. Drive and listen again. I've done this twice, not an adequate testing sample, it's all I'm willing to do  In my experience, the second trip is significantly quieter than the first, with improved cabin acoustics as well. If the first trip had problematic engine, exhaust or tire noise, the second did as well, but the interior consequences of those noises was reduced.

Did I convert these cars into anechoic chambers with that thin layer of foam? Of course not. What I did was gasket all of the trim panels and augment the factory absorbers. For many people, if not most, this is going to be adequate - particularly if the manufacturer paid a reasonable amount of attention to NVH issues. You've gone a long way to address the trim panel rattles that an enhanced sound system almost always introduces. You've reduced some reflection. You've added complexity to some gaps and voids. You have increased overall absorption, at least a little bit.

This probably took you a couple of days to complete and will have made significant improvement. None of this effort or material is wasted. Now you are either done, or you have established a quieter, more pleasant baseline for additional work. After this first step, since I'm as compulsive as most of the people in this thread, I have gone over the vehicle and added many specific treatments to address specific issues - barriers to block difficult noise sources, various treatments for stubborn rattles, absorbers in quarter panels and other large empty spaces and on and on.

So, thin sheets of closed cell foam aren't very good absorbers, barriers or vibration dampers but this only make the material useless in the same way a hammer is useless as a screw driver. If the guy on the other forum who inspired this thread simply said: "Ensolite is useless", I'd ignore anything else he has to say. If what he said was closer to the first sentence of this paragraph, then yeah, but so what, it's a very useful material in the overall process.


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

I've just put the first layer of butyl mat on my doors and ... well, I closed the door, tapped it and laughed out loud. That little material can do *that
much*?
wow. OK, I will be adding another mat to the front doors, I'll add some more to the space behind the speaker (bugger, that means cleaning the bitumen that was there before  ) and then I can think about the interior. 
I thoroughly intend to test and remove trim again if it's "not good enough", I have no qualms about that. What, however, I am looking for is a solution for the trunk area which doesn't require me taking a build out time and again.

What's NVH?

Next thing is that in my case, the car's aluminum. That changes the equation slightly, as it is also an Audi and it wasn't *that* noisy to start with. The Forester and Escape are both significantly louder, as is the new Impreza and the Jeep Compass. From the factory, there's a 1/4" layer of open cell directly behind the door card; then there's the alu inner door skin and the behind that the outer skin. The outer skin now has Butyl, the inner skin has "sludge". I'll add some closed cell round by the window (or the outside face of the inner skin) then some fleece as a second round for the door card. That should help.
Taking it away again to prove the difference should take 10 minutes.
The next big issue though will be the wheel wells, and I think I will have to save 3-4 sheets of butyl for those. I run 215/40R17 summer tyres and spikes in the winter so tyre noise is always an issue; I'm hoping that Butyl with the closed cell that's on the bottom of the carpet will help to tame this. If it's still too loud, then i'll add another layer and see what happens.

I'm seriously impressed with the results so far, looking forward to seeing what happens next. It's also only taken around 12 hours so far, including losing and clearing up after the old bitumen. BUT: half of the car had no screws in anyway, and I must have had it in pieces a dozen times before....

Bret


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## monkeyboy (Jun 12, 2007)

NVH = Noise, Vibration, and Harshness


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## mike1120 (Feb 14, 2008)

I applied about 3 layers of raamat deadener to my doors, sealed up the holes with carboard, then tested my speakers. After ensolite I tested them again and heard a difference in midbass.


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

A few things that can help you out and I will stop using the term "ensolite" 

1) while the vehicle is apart run through some test tones, slowly stepping or sweeping, at different db levels, this will excite and help localize ant particular issue you can address at that time.

2) do so again while assembling the interior, a section at a time works well.

3) a third time while fully assembled will help finalize and remaining problems with panel fitment etc.

------------------

For those not inclined to do the above another approach would be.

1) look at each area you are working on then use tie wraps, silicone sealer, foam tape, whatever is best for that area, use it to ensure nothing can possibly resonate at any freq, this is fast and easy to do.

2) when installing the trim panels use a small dab of silicone sealer on all the mounts, where they attach to the panels and where they pop into the car, screw down, etc. They will still come off if need be later on but they will not be able to resonate while in place.

3) overlapping sections of trim, a small bead of silicone between them, as above, still come apart, can't resonate.

4) gaps between trim edges and their attachment points. This is a bit tricky to do well, I learned this in the 70's so have had a bit of practice. Use a tube of clear silicone sealer, cut a very clean 45 degree bevel, very small, at the tip, run a carefully applied bead in the gap, about a foot at a time is the most you you can apply. Then using the tip of your finger so you can feel the application, gently pull towards you, spreading the silicone into a concave shape, leaving just enough to fill the gap and no residue on the sides(it can be cleaned up if you do so without to much difficulty) This will blend the two materials together into a very clean line, far more attractive than the slight gaps most trim panels will have or at least have in some areas and it will prevent the panels from resonating against the mounting surface. 

-----------------------

Under the dash.

1) tap test, test cd, etc, look for and deal with any resonating bits you can locate. I use mat, foam, silicone, tie wraps, etc....... 

2) ducting can be quite loud when using the fan, etc, I like to use mat and foam over it. 

3) If you really want to go nuts you can remove the dash so you can get to everything better, once out flip it over and apply bits of mat, foam(great place for thick acoustical foam) etc.

4) Once everything is pretty much completed I like to cut to fit more acoustical foam to wedge, glue, etc into voids as much as I can and still have proper air flow for the ventilation system. 

5) Finally, I will build baffles to seal up the bottom of the dash from the cabin footwells. Of course you need to leave open areas for airflow but those can be offset to the rear, etc so the air has to flow around them, treat the top side with mat and foam, acoustical where it fits, the bottom with carpet, foam and cloth, etc. 

Now you have a properly deadened dash. 

I did not mention the firewall, etc, that is part of the floor application, how I see things that is. While doing the floor I work my way up the firewall, removing or lifting out of the way all I can to reach as many areas as possible. This is much easier with the dash out of course. 

Or, when using mat, I use just enough in each area to get the job done, tap test, rap it with a rubber mallet, your fist, etc, if it feels flexible it needs more, if it resonates it needs more, if it sounds dead, it is, you are done with mat. 

------------------------------------------------

I guess I want to cover one more topic, related to the last paragraph, sandwiching materials on the floor.

This is a get it done, effective, easy to accomplish method, which will satisfy the vast majority of our fellow enthusiasts, of course there are higher level approaches, etc for the very few that want to go beyond.

One layer of mat everywhere, one layer of foam on top of it. , thump test, any resonate, flexible areas, more mat on the foam, more foam on that mat, result is mat/foam/mat/foam on key areas. This greatly reduces resonance and serves to decouple the energy present from coming into the cabin air space. Another great effect is dramatically reducing heat gain from exhaust systems, transmissions, etc. 


---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I have more tricks up my sleave, some I learn as I go along, some I figured out years ago. 

One pain is a royal pain in the arse, every time I do it I tell myself never again.

Fill every void in the chassis and over the wheel wells you can possibly get to with expanding foam. I use a product from Todal, called Pur Fil, manf in Germany. 360 liquid oz and one week of hell on the last project car. This will ruin your clothes, has to grow out if on your fingernails, an everything it touches will be permanently scared, be very carefull. I spent at least $60 on masking materials and still had the wind blow in the open garage door and get some on the paint, which I had to have repaired. 

---------------------------------------------------

Now I need to take care of my business so I can go start bending a new roll cage for my race car

Have a great weekend!
Rick


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Note,
I only recommend a small patch of foam behind each speaker, just enough to help break up the back wave and decouple the energy from the door skin. More is not good, really muddies up the midrange response. I have used Deflex pads as well, I really did not see much difference if any, a patch of foam is very cost effective.


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## -db (Mar 14, 2007)

raamaudio said:


> Note,
> I only recommend a small patch of foam behind each speaker, just enough to help break up the back wave and decouple the energy from the door skin. More is not good, really muddies up the midrange response. I have used Deflex pads as well, I really did not see much difference if any, a patch of foam is very cost effective.



So I probably shouldn't have put a full layer on the outer skin then?


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

after now brushing four layers of noxudol onto the inner door skins (they're plain aluminum), they really are starting to stop vibrating. Looking good. The camping mat got cut up last night too, and that is also pushed into place in both doors on the passenger side. I will go down shortly and fill in all the other holes (I found some i didn't know were there and weren't filled before) so that should also help. I think the next step will then be to cut the fleece tonight and take the car out for ten minutes with and without trim just to see how much it has done. Then I can start taking the rear seats out and dismantle the trunk for the next couple of stages... 

Monday I need to get another camping mat. I think I'll leave the roof til last as I've not got enough space.

Bret


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

bretti_kivi said:


> after now brushing four layers of noxudol onto the inner door skins (they're plain aluminum), they really are starting to stop vibrating. Looking good. The camping mat got cut up last night too, and that is also pushed into place in both doors on the passenger side. I will go down shortly and fill in all the other holes (I found some i didn't know were there and weren't filled before) so that should also help. I think the next step will then be to cut the fleece tonight and take the car out for ten minutes with and without trim just to see how much it has done. Then I can start taking the rear seats out and dismantle the trunk for the next couple of stages...
> 
> Monday I need to get another camping mat. I think I'll leave the roof til last as I've not got enough space.
> 
> Bret


Any pics of the Noxudol? We don't see much of that in the US but I believe I've heard that the formula is used by some products sold here.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Searched and found this ?
http://www.noxudolusa.com/


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## ZoNtO (Sep 20, 2005)

-db said:


> So I probably shouldn't have put a full layer on the outer skin then?


I think he might be talking about right behind the speaker, as in putting multiple layers. I can't imagine how a whole layer on the outer door skin could possibly be bad since it will stop a ton of noise, and the layer on the inner door skin will finish the job.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

a$$hole said:


> Searched and found this ?
> http://www.noxudolusa.com/


That's the stuff - I've just never seen anybody use it. I think it was originally a Scandinavian company, but it seems to have been absorbed into a Japanese company.


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

swedish, i think.

I'm brushing it, not rollering or spraying; i'm now up to the 5th layer on the left side doors and the third on the right side doors. It's approaching the thickness where I think it makes sense. I'm on the second liter, it doesn't cover spectacularly well, but i think this 5 layer will have to do. 
The tins are a PITA. open it, punch a hole in the bottom and let it empty into a jelly jar. That way, you can use as much as necessary but not have to worry too much about air getting in. A palette knife is probably more effective than a brush in many situations.

I will do some photos later tonight for another site, then I can link to them here.

Bret
EDIT: just re-found the link I was looking for: 

http://www.g2xb.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1391

If I had too much time, I would probably use some of this in my wheelarches. As it is, it's expensive (€30 / l) and I want to get finished


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

ZoNtO said:


> I think he might be talking about right behind the speaker, as in putting multiple layers. I can't imagine how a whole layer on the outer door skin could possibly be bad since it will stop a ton of noise, and the layer on the inner door skin will finish the job.


Rick was talking about open cell foam behind the driver. He mentioned a small patch and to not use too much.

IME, thick (1"+) of OC foam directly behind the driver really "chokes" the midrange-midbass response. I took me all of about 20 seconds to know it doesn't belong behind a radiating driver in my install. 

Keep in mind OC foam is considered a broad band absorber and acutally works better away from the noise source then close to it like a barrier. 

Products like Deflex pads are typically made from low durometer rubber or silicone and, while they do offer some absorption, they work by diffusion. Hardcore acoustics nuts will do pretty much anything to treat noise interference in their sound systems, and diffusers can be part of the bigger picture. Absorbers do diffuse sound, but aren't very good at it. Difussors absorb sound, but aren't very good at it.

Closed cell foam is also a diffuser and, as I discussed before, a relatively poor absorber. As foams become more dense, the don't absorb as well. It's physics. I don't care if you have 100 years working with the stuff, you have to know HOW IT WORKS! To call it an effective absorber of sound is erroneous.

So how can CC foam benefit? Get some super dense CC foam and multi-layer it OR us it in conjunction with other dense materials in a composite (MLV) and you will have a very effective material that can do some damage on that 125 hz pesky road noise band. 

So to answer the OP's question: is a 1/8" CC foam like Ensolite useless? Yes, it sure can be if you aren't using it correctly. Tissue paper can probably absorb SOME sound if you really wanted to make a case for it.


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

some pretty pictures (and now I see just what I've let myself in for with the trunk install)....

The rear wheelarches have something like 2" of closed cell directly above them. To the side (towards the centre of the car) there is NOTHING except a thin layer of felt / card which is the trim itself. Hä? I'm *sure* I can do better than that. Layers, I think; start with mat, then Ensolite or Luxury Liner, then Open Cell and any open spaces need to be damped and preferably filled.

On the pics, the white parts of the 2 inner skins are that where it's not 100% dry yet.
Seems to be pretty effective, they're a bit heavier than before but don't resonate any where near as much. I'm looking forward to hearing this 

Bret


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

bretti_kivi said:


> some pretty pictures (and now I see just what I've let myself in for with the trunk install)....
> 
> The rear wheelarches have something like 2" of closed cell directly above them. To the side (towards the centre of the car) there is NOTHING except a thin layer of felt / card which is the trim itself. Hä? I'm *sure* I can do better than that. Layers, I think; start with mat, then Ensolite or Luxury Liner, then Open Cell and any open spaces need to be damped and preferably filled.
> 
> ...


Nice. Any idea how thick it is?


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

i will try to measure tomorrow from the drivers side, scrape some off and take a macro.

Bret


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

Very silly question: what do you guys think of using 4" rockfibre or basotect in the trunk? that should have a 0.5 coefficient on the 125Hz.....

Bret


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

bretti_kivi said:


> Very silly question: what do you guys think of using 4" rockfibre or basotect in the trunk? that should have a 0.5 coefficient on the 125Hz.....
> 
> Bret


I packaged something very similar in very light, zippered pillow covers - because I was concerned about the fibers migrating. I stuffed the the open space in the quarter panel with 4 or them. Worked quite well.


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## zero7404 (Jan 31, 2008)

since the topic here is sound deadening...i need to ask some questions: i've had my doors and rear deck dynamated using dynamat xtreme. i was wondering if there is anything better or just as good but lighter in weight ?

if there is, i want to pull the dynamat and redo the vehicle with something better.

what is ensolite ? is it a foam or something ?

i'm looking for something equally as effective or better than dynamat xtreme, but also needs to be lighter weight.

How is dynamat removed ? when i pull it off it leaves a residue...i also have some speakers sitting at home that i want to sell, but there's some dynamat on the mounting flanges. is there a solvent that will clean this stuff with ease ?


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

bretti_kivi said:


> Very silly question: what do you guys think of using 4" rockfibre or basotect in the trunk? that should have a 0.5 coefficient on the 125Hz.....
> 
> Bret


Not a silly question in the least bit! In fact, you're using your "sound deadening" part of your brain quite well.  .5 at 125 is not easy to do!

Go for it. Maybe add a barrier of some sorts if you have one before you add an absorber like that. That just might attenuate that band below an audible level, which can be done if you keep thinking the way you think and plan ahead. That's what it's all about. {so proud i could cry :blush: }

Thanks for the info and feedback on Noxudul. I'd never heard of it...kind of sounds like an anti-anxiety med. Their 3100 does appear to be the same or very similar to QuietCar's liquid. And their demo is pretty damn impressive if you ask me: http://noxudolusa.com/sound_damping_products/hear_the_difference.html


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Thank You for the link, Bret  

Quoted}

I called him today and got the following information:

1. Yes, he does apply Noxudol to autos for sound control (deadening). 

2. This product is manufactured in Sweden and is imported by a company named Soshin USA.

3. He is able to apply three coats (as recommended by manufacturer) and requires two days to complete the process. 

4. He does the complete under carriage, including wheel wells, engine compartment (including under the hood), and if one brings the vehicle in with the headliner removed, will spray the inside of the roof as well. (Question: How difficult is it to remove the headliner and reinstall after the spray?) 

5. Cost for project: $450.00 without headliner. $550.00 including the roof.

6. The product is used by Volvo when they manufacture their cars.

7. The product is guaranteed for 18 years! (Why 18 years? Who in the hell knows, but that is the way it is...) 

8. The other major application for this product is in the marine industry, so it is waterproof and not water resistant like similar spray on products on the market.

9. Contact particulars: email: [email protected] 
phone: 800-543-2476
location: 2440 Firestone Blvd.
South Gate, CA

10. At these prices, and with the prospect of trying something new, innovate and interesting, will probably go for it, but not for a couple of weeks. Will keep everyone posted. In the meantime, if anyone else wants to give it a try, would appreciate hearing about your experience is with this product and this installer.

11. The product is a gray/beige slurry, and there is also a black undercarriage spray that he will use, if wanted. He puts the car up on a hoist, removes the wheels and masks all areas that are not to be sprayed. Sounds pretty thorough to me! 

I gather that there are precious little in the way of fumes, as the product is water-based. Drying time between spray applications is what takes up the time. Once the product is dry and has cured, maximum effect is said to be achieved after the product has been in place for approximately one week.

If this works well, this might be a suitable/appropriate after market fix for the rather booming interior noise that might start to get on one's nerves. On the other hand, if everyone is old or has impaired hearing, maybe the relatively loud noise won't bother that much. 

Best,

Robert Yoshioka

Great info Bret  !!


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

hmm. So, if I throw in a false floor, with the top section suspended using cork feet, I could quite easily damp the bottom of the new floor (simple baltic birch, gotta support the home economy ) and the top of the old one with some butyl. Neoprene, then the thick layer of rockfibre (preferably sealed into something). The side sections will get a thinner layer of rockfibre, (probably around 2"), over butyl and some thick neoprene; the visible part of the floor will be covered a thin layer of foam rubber or neoprene and then leather. The sides will get different materials to "fuzz up" any reflections. A sub needs to fit somewhere, but I think I will deal with that later.

If then the outside metal gets butyl, some neoprene and as much rockfibre as I can stuff in, it should be pretty good. Sealing the hole with some neoprene and butyl would probably also be a good idea. I'll lose around 15-20% of the previously usable load space, but that's OK if it means peace 
I guess the next thing to do is to build the false floor and test.

@zero7404: I don't think there's that much you can do about the weight. If you want peace, you have to pay for it somehow. Is it that important?

I have no idea what solvent would work here, though it would be nice to know... Ensolite is described earlier in this thread.

Noxudol does have some fumes: a mild ammonia smell. You only really smell it when you walk back into the room later.

Bret


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

bretti_kivi said:


> hmm. So, if I throw in a false floor, with the top section suspended using cork feet, I could quite easily damp the bottom of the new floor (simple baltic birch, gotta support the home economy ) and the top of the old one with some butyl. Neoprene, then the thick layer of rockfibre (preferably sealed into something). The side sections will get a thinner layer of rockfibre, (probably around 2"), over butyl and some thick neoprene; the visible part of the floor will be covered a thin layer of foam rubber or neoprene and then leather. The sides will get different materials to "fuzz up" any reflections. A sub needs to fit somewhere, but I think I will deal with that later.
> 
> If then the outside metal gets butyl, some neoprene and as much rockfibre as I can stuff in, it should be pretty good. Sealing the hole with some neoprene and butyl would probably also be a good idea. I'll lose around 15-20% of the previously usable load space, but that's OK if it means peace
> I guess the next thing to do is to build the false floor and test.
> ...


If I'm understanding your plan, I don't think putting butyl on wood is going to do much fro you.

You are correct about weigth. Anything comparable to Dynamat Xtreme is going to get a large part of its effectiveness from weight. You can explore other strategies, like bracing, to reduce resonance problems with out adding much weight to the car. That moves you into the treating each panel/part separately.

Mineral spirits or turpentine are pretty effective solvents.


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

now that sounds like a plan; if I brace the new floor unevenly spaced, then I can fill the spaces with the rockfibre and then glue the cork spacers to the bottom; or I could just fill it with PUR foam. If I did it in multiple sections, it would probably also not need then any additional support; it would have to be done over a week or so anyway, because otherwise it wouldn't dry.

hmm......yeah, if I were to put the baseboard down with guides for the sides, I could fill that over several days and then the last section would "need the lid". i can always re-form it if necessary using a surform and that way the wood would a) be stuck and b) be decoupled from the aluminium. The door I need would also not be a problem as I could just saw that out later... sorry, I'm writing and thinking at the same time. Considering the ply is 600x995, I could also get a couple cut and then I can test different solutions.

thanks, gentlemen, you've been a great help. now to test...

Bret


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

so, quick update.
Rockfibre only available in complete packs. that's not what I wanted to hear. 
However.. I put the aluminium back on the doors. WOW! this **** works! It's a relatively thin aluminium plate. I've done this enough times to understand that it goes "clong"... not any more 

I'll drop some real results after I've put the other two back in.... tomorrow, probably, but I have to find a camping mat to cut up, first 

Bret


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## dcarwin (Feb 2, 2008)

Is neoprene useless? (can it be used as a diffuser?)

<<looking at pile of old wetsuits wife just told me to "delete">>


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## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

I glued my panels like rick suggested. I don't hear many creaks in my car anymore.

You the man, once again, Rick.

This is invaluable for American car owners like myself. Once those panels come off... its rattle time.


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## Fixtion (Aug 25, 2006)

a$$hole said:


> 10. At these prices, and with the prospect of trying something new, innovate and interesting, will probably go for it, but not for a couple of weeks. Will keep everyone posted. In the meantime, if anyone else wants to give it a try, would appreciate hearing about your experience is with this product and this installer.


take one of the team. actually this sound like a fantastic idea. i may have to sign up for when i buy a new vehicle. hopefully within the next two years.

*-fixtion*


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

so, i've just been out for a quick drive. I didn't realise until I was nearly home that the window was open a fraction (!)... but the whole car feels more "worthy" now. it wasn't bad before, but there's a chunk more solidity even if that's only in the doors ?!

I now have engine noise and what sounds like brown noise (so I presume this is the dreaded tyre roar @125Hz) and that's it. It's quieter than before, and will be more so when I put all the trim back (or have created the new stuff) as at the moment the trunk has no trim whatsoever. I dumped the rear seats back in and added the new roll of felt I just got into the trunk, that's it. From experience it should be significantly louder than it is (I've forgotten a trim piece before and i've also driven around without the trunk lid trim) so i'm impressed.
Now for that pesky road noise... 

Bret


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## lostdaytomorrow (Jan 26, 2007)

MidnightCE said:


> I glued my panels like rick suggested. I don't hear many creaks in my car anymore.
> 
> You the man, once again, Rick.
> 
> This is invaluable for American car owners like myself. Once those panels come off... its rattle time.


Which glue did you use?


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## dBassHz (Nov 2, 2005)

tcguy85 said:


> i might add one more layer of mat to the doors and a layer of foam to them as well but i already did the doors for the most part. want to continue onto the rest now. i think i'll buy a roll of raamat and buy a few of these... https://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/...xU9BNGksXIUNCEO8EFERr0FAIJb4/Moc4wF8
> mbxvygJI
> cut them up and stick them where i think could use it. lol


I've mentioned before that you can get those closed cell egg crate mats at Walmart for $11.xx, in the camping section.


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## dbiegel (Oct 15, 2006)

I'm on spring break next week and was going to deaden my new accord then. However, this Noxudol product looks intriguing. 

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on whether or not you think Noxudol would be worth getting done, versus just applying a layer or two of Raammat and then mass loaded vinyl / closed cell foam like I was going to do.

If anyone knows more about this product please chime in. It's just a damper, correct, not a barrier? So theoretically there shouldn't be any advantage over a layer or two of Raammat... right?


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## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

lostdaytomorrow said:


> Which glue did you use?


silicone "household glue"


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

DOMN8R said:


> I'm on spring break next week and was going to deaden my new accord then. However, this Noxudol product looks intriguing.
> 
> I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on whether or not you think Noxudol would be worth getting done, versus just applying a layer or two of Raammat and then mass loaded vinyl / closed cell foam like I was going to do.
> 
> If anyone knows more about this product please chime in. It's just a damper, correct, not a barrier? So theoretically there shouldn't be any advantage over a layer or two of Raammat... right?


Just a damper and theoretically a disadvantage over RAAMmat and similar since they benefit from having a foil layer.


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

so noxudol from the outside, then mat and ensolite from the inside....


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

bretti_kivi said:


> so noxudol from the outside, then mat and ensolite from the inside....


That could work well, if you're talking about using it as an undercoating, particularly if you are having problems with sand and gravel bouncing off the bottom of the car. Otherwise, for the tire noise you were describing, you will almost certainly want some sort of barrier.


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