# SMALLER AUDIO COMPANIES MAKE BETTER PRODUCTS THAN MAINSTREAM COMPANIES



## cleansoundz

Is it true? Yes or No. I believe that a smaller audio company that is more focused on quality control and product quality will produce better products than companies such as: Alpine, Kenwood, Pioneer, MTX, JL Audio, RF, etc. Smaller companies can be: MacIntosh, Sundown Audio, Incriminator Audio, SSA, Dayton, CDT, Brax, Tru, etc. These products can be speakers, subwoofers, amps, coaxials, processors, etc.


----------



## edzyy

Yes and no. 

Depends on what you're comparing.


----------



## jpswanberg

Also depends on if the small companies actually make their own product, with their own r&d or if they buy from a build house and slap their label on it.


----------



## msmith

Is this an evidence-based argument?


----------



## edouble101

Goes both ways. There are just as many internet brand companies that I will not buy from as there are big box companies.


----------



## AAAAAAA

I think it is a mixed bag.

You might get more power from an amplifier or more subwoofer excursion for less from a smaller company, often they will leverage existing designs and simply rebrand items. They will also often use more generic parts that might not integrate as well in the design. For instance look at input and output terminals. JL, alpine, JBl have more integrated designs for their flagships. You can see dollar store ones on the smaller brands.

You might not care so much at design and think you care more about power and performance, but then maybe after comparing you realise that having (number out of my ass) 25% more output power translates into inaudible performance benefits. So is it a toss-up?

The big boys can offer full product lines such as decks and better stock integration and system tuning. You don’t see the small companies bringing out self tune systems like we see from alpine and JBL. Certainly no advanced decks like the P99.

We often say install and tuning is where most benefits come from so, more often than not the tuning aspect, the “heart” of your system, will be coming from one of the big boys.

Small companies though are often good at filling niches and also being closer to their customers and many of us value that. However even the big boys are getting better at that to, how many reps for the major companies to we have on here?

I am glad that both sides do exist though.


----------



## quality_sound

Exactly. Hell, Manville replied in this thread! lol if ANYONE has a quality issue with a JL product they were absolutely abusing the piss out of it. 

Also, McIntosh is not small. Dayton is not small.


----------



## AAAAAAA

I don't know if I would put JL audio as one of the big boys. They offer a modest line up of focused quality products IMO and resemble more the smaller compagny model IMO.

I think qualifying who is big and who is small might be a challenge in itself.
some small compagnies rebrand a lot, some don't at all.

Some big compagnies don't rebrand, some do.

Quality control I think has nothing to do with the size of the company but is more related to where the product sits in the line up... top or bottom?


----------



## minbari

As a generalization, I would say no. Look at mainstream companies like Alpine and JL. They make very good quality components.

That is not to say that small companies dont make high quality. companies like Zed, ID, and Zuki are good examples.


----------



## 07azhhr

quality_sound said:


> Exactly. Hell, Manville replied in this thread! lol if ANYONE has a quality issue with a JL product they were absolutely abusing the piss out of it.
> 
> Also, McIntosh is not small. Dayton is not small.


Do we have any other reps from the big boys though? Andy no longer works for Harmon. Grizz is now at Ground Zero which may or may not be small in Europe but is non existant for now here. Do we have anyone from Alpine or Pio or Kenwood? Almost forgot, and truely sorry Casey, we do have Casey from Morel.


----------



## MarkZ

cleansoundz said:


> Is it true? Yes or No. I believe that a smaller audio company that is more focused on quality control and product quality will produce better products than companies such as: Alpine, Kenwood, Pioneer, MTX, JL Audio, RF, etc. Smaller companies can be: MacIntosh, Sundown Audio, Incriminator Audio, SSA, Dayton, CDT, Brax, Tru, etc. These products can be speakers, subwoofers, amps, coaxials, processors, etc.


Since when is McIntosh small?

And why would you think QC is better with smaller companies?

I think stereotyping in this way is a really bad idea.


----------



## 07azhhr

AAAAAAA said:


> I don't know if I would put JL audio as one of the big boys. They offer a modest line up of focused quality products IMO and resemble more the smaller compagny model IMO.
> 
> I think qualifying who is big and who is small might be a challenge in itself.
> some small compagnies rebrand a lot, some don't at all.
> 
> Some big compagnies don't rebrand, some do.
> 
> Quality control I think has nothing to do with the size of the company but is more related to where the product sits in the line up... top or bottom?


If nothing else we need a medium group. JL may fall inbetween that group and the big boys. I tend to think of them as a big boy though. They have wharehouses I would imagine thruought the states as I know they have one here in Phoenix. We also have countless shops that sell JL and if you want something that said shop does not have on hand they can have it for you by the afternoon. Small companies will not have wharehouses in other states other then theirs.

I know when I got back into audio a little over a year ago I walked into this one small shop and was told all they carry is JL and Kicker. I have since found another that carries only JL and RF. I am sure there are others too that rely mostly on selling JL.


For those in FL I just found this JL Audio - Factory Tours


----------



## AAAAAAA

07azhhr said:


> Do we have any other reps from the big boys though? Andy no longer works for Harmon. Grizz is now at Ground Pounder which may or may not be small in Europe but is non existant for now here. Do we have anyone from Alpine or Pio or Kenwood? Almost forgot, and truely sorry Casey, we do have Casey from Morel.


There is a rep for epsilon still on here that is not grizz, and there is Jim from alpine.

I think it would be hard to distinguish big from small.

Product line up?
# of employees?
Revenue?
sales?


----------



## chefhow

I would say NO.
Smaller companies more likely than not are buying things off the shelf and relying on the manufacturers to handle the QC/QA portion of the process, leaving room for more errors.


----------



## quality_sound

07azhhr said:


> Do we have any other reps from the big boys though? Andy no longer works for Harmon. Grizz is now at Ground Pounder which may or may not be small in Europe but is non existant for now here. Do we have anyone from Alpine or Pio or Kenwood? Almost forgot, and truely sorry Casey, we do have Casey from Morel.



Jim Walters from Alpine is a regular. Nick Wingate from ORCA. What exactly does a rep mean though? Nothing. It has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the product. At all.


----------



## cleansoundz

These are the exact answers that I was looking for from this thread. Thanks


----------



## Viggen

I do not look at it as big vs small 

Just because they are small doesnt mean their q.c. Is better then a large company

Look at a small auto manufacturer like Lamborghini vs Honda. Is the Lamborghini more reliable and will it last longer vs the Honda? Is the q.c. At Lamborghini better then Honda? 

To me its more about simply their targeted market. Alpine makes great stuff however they do not want to compete against $5,000 car audio amplifiers or $2,500 subwoofers but they do compete quite well in the under $500 amp and $100-300 sub market. Small companies usually do not want to compete with the large electronic companies in areas that are difficult to enter and make a profit, cd/nav/head units as a example. They stick to areas which are easier to enter and turn a profit.


----------



## msmith

The quality of our products has improved as we became a bigger company. More resources give us the ability to invest in better production equipment, better tooling, more research and better quality procedures. The product we built today is the best we have ever built.

Here's are a few photo galleries that show what I'm talking about...
JL Audio

I tend to place more trust in a speaker assembled in a high-tech facility than in some "hand-made" operation where adhesives are applied to speakers with ketchup squeeze bottles.


----------



## msmith

double post deleted


----------



## left channel

I think it depends more on the focus of the company than the size. A small company that puts a strong focus on QC is no better or worse than a large company that does the same. In addition, a company that focuses on mass production for minimum margin is going to place less importance on QC. Regardless of the overall size of the company.


----------



## Manic1!

msmith said:


> The quality of our products has improved as we became a bigger company. More resources give us the ability to invest in better production equipment, better tooling, more research and better quality procedures. The product we built today is the best we have ever built.
> 
> Here's are a few photo galleries that show what I'm talking about...
> JL Audio
> 
> I tend to place more trust in a speaker assembled in a high-tech facility than in some "hand-made" operation where adhesives are applied to speakers with ketchup squeeze bottles.


Please fix your website. Your link takes me to the Canadian website. The Canadian website has none of tutorials the US site has. I also can't see any of the pictures you are talking about.


----------



## [email protected]

Manic1! said:


> Please fix your website. Your link takes me to the Canadian website. The Canadian website has none of tutorials the US site. I also can't see any of the pictures you are talking about.


Thats Canadian internet for you. The link takes me to the standard JL site. Fix your internet provider.


----------



## soundcontrol

Quality versus quantity may be what your looking at. Typically larger companies deal in large quantities and smaller companies not as much. DD audio would fall under a smaller brand that is well known for their quality. Alpine, Kenwood, RF, are larger companies and many others are also known for making great quality products and filling a bigger gap from low end to high end products.

ED audio was a small company and there have been many post of people that experienced numerous quality issues.

Cheap, inexpensive, and quality are often confused and every ones idea of what they are may differ.

Cheap for me is just a product that is poorly made and can be available at a variety of price points.

Inexpensive is a product that may be low in cost, but is a great value product that performs well for what it is intended to do. Entry level products that when used properly are great. Often because of the price are abused by those who do not know better and are then labeled as cheap.

Quality is what we as consumers expect in any product we buy. Defects and issues happen for any company size and how the company handles that for the customer is as important as the end product itself. 

Many instances have to do with customer installation or use. The ones that are because of the product alone are the ones I am referring to. It can be a fine line when many customers do no understand that it is them and not the product. All can take some abuse, but too much will always lead to failure that isn't the manufactures fault. This ignorance as mentioned before can lead to many labeling something cheap based on their lack of understanding.


----------



## MarkZ

Manic1! said:


> Please fix your website. Your link takes me to the Canadian website. The Canadian website has none of tutorials the US site has. I also can't see any of the pictures you are talking about.


Do smaller audio companies have better websites than mainstream companies?


----------



## quality_sound

Manic1! said:


> Please fix your website. Your link takes me to the Canadian website. The Canadian website has none of tutorials the US site has. I also can't see any of the pictures you are talking about.


The link is fine. Yours takes you to Canada's because you're IN Canada and have a Canadian IP address. You could try copying and pasting the address in manually.


----------



## quality_sound

MarkZ said:


> Do smaller audio companies have better websites than mainstream companies?


Not if you're looking at something like Arc's current site.


----------



## jpswanberg

Dynaudio designs/builds quality products. Manley Labs designs/builds quality products. JL Audio designs/builds quality products. I own/have used products from all three and have been nothing but happy. One is a medium sized company, one is small company and one is a large company. I think doing your own research and building your own products shows a love for what you are doing and a commitment to your "brand". I think those two things are more important than the actual size of the company.


----------



## santiagodraco

The only determining factors in the quality of products is 1) skill, 2) willingness to apply the skill without cutting corners, 3) obtaining high quality materials and 4) quality tools for manufacturing.

It doesn't matter if you are big or small.

Frankly larger companies have the advantage of resources that smaller companies don't have provided they are willing to use those resources properly (ie the items above). Smaller companies have the advantage of flexibility and speedy changes that larger companies don't always have.

But again at the end of the day it's all about skill and resources.


----------



## MarkZ

The _perceived_ problem with large companies with extensive product lines comes when they introduce entry-level products in addition to their high quality product line. People get all butthurt about it. "No way, man, Alpine SUCKS because I owned a cheap $50 speaker they made in 2003 and it sounded terrible!" Therefore, everything that company makes must be garbage.

That poor excuse for logic isn't a whole lot different from saying black people suck because you were robbed by a black guy once back in 1991.

Knowing an entire company's product line is hard work. Especially big companies. Especially big companies who have been around for a million years. People are inherently lazy and prideful, so they stereotype because they want to feel more knowledgeable about a particular product than they actually are.


----------



## sundownz

msmith said:


> The quality of our products has improved as we became a bigger company. More resources give us the ability to invest in better production equipment, better tooling, more research and better quality procedures. The product we built today is the best we have ever built.
> 
> Here's are a few photo galleries that show what I'm talking about...
> JL Audio
> 
> I tend to place more trust in a speaker assembled in a high-tech facility than in some "hand-made" operation where adhesives are applied to speakers with ketchup squeeze bottles.


I do have to say that the JL woofer building facility is pretty awesome.


----------



## msmith

Manic1! said:


> Please fix your website. Your link takes me to the Canadian website. The Canadian website has none of tutorials the US site has. I also can't see any of the pictures you are talking about.


Your Canadian IP address is causing that to occur. All you have to do is go to the bottom of the page where it says "Select Country" and switch from the Canadian to the US site with the little toggle thingy on the right.

Sorry for the hassle.


----------



## killerb87

sundownz said:


> I do have to say that the JL woofer building facility is pretty awesome.


Yes it is!!!


----------



## squeak9798

MarkZ said:


> The _perceived_ problem with large companies with extensive product lines comes when they introduce entry-level products in addition to their high quality product line. People get all butthurt about it. "No way, man, Alpine SUCKS because I owned a cheap $50 speaker they made in 2003 and it sounded terrible!" Therefore, everything that company makes must be garbage.
> 
> That poor excuse for logic isn't a whole lot different from saying black people suck because you were robbed by a black guy once back in 1991.
> 
> Knowing an entire company's product line is hard work. Especially big companies. Especially big companies who have been around for a million years. People are inherently lazy and prideful, so they stereotype because they want to feel more knowledgeable about a particular product than they actually are.


I think a secondary issue related to that is scale. Pulling #'s out of the air, Large Brand A might sell 100 amps for every 1 amp Small Brand B sells. If they each have 1% failure rate, Brand A has 100x more amps failing than Brand B. But because Brand A has 100x the amount of amp failures they _sound_ like a less reliable product simply because more products have failed. And because more products have failed more people have _heard about_ Brand A's amps failing compared to Brand B even though their reliability rate is _exactly_ the same.


----------



## edwinn

when reading this question, i think of the canadian companies, and the NRC. If a company aready has access to research and, can produce a product that they can profit from, so that the can build their own anechoic chamber to build in house, yes


----------



## quality_sound

killerb87 said:


> Yes it is!!!




I wouldn't know. I was supposed to be in the tour last November and it was cancelled.


----------



## cleansoundz

jpswanberg said:


> Also depends on if the small companies actually make their own product, with their own r&d or if they buy from a build house and slap their label on it.


I agree with that. Sundown, RD, Sound Qubed, and others have amps that look the same on the inside. They just have a different heatsink.


----------



## BuickGN

I can't say I have an opinion one way or the other whether or not bigger companies have better or worse QC than others. I feel 100% confident when buying JL subs that they will work flawlessly for a decade if I don't get bored sooner. Still thinking about the pair of 13W7s IB but waiting to see if there's a v2 anytime soon. 

Then you have Dynaudio which I guess is a small to medium sized company?? Their TS parameters always have the least amount of variance from speaker to speaker and by a significant margin and you never hear of failures. I think it really depends more on the focus of the company than the size of the company. Size doesn't matter! :blush:


----------



## mmiller

Manic1! said:


> Please fix your website. Your link takes me to the Canadian website. The Canadian website has none of tutorials the US site has. I also can't see any of the pictures you are talking about.


I have no issue when I type in JL Audio.com it takes me to the us site. .ca takes me to the Canuck site. Not sure what your issue is.


----------



## quality_sound

His issue has been resolved. Repeatedly.


----------



## MarkZ

BuickGN said:


> Then you have Dynaudio which I guess is a small to medium sized company??


I would have thought large. They have all that OEM business too...


----------



## BuickGN

True. I wonder if all of the OEM stuff is hand made as well. I can't imagine using people to produce speakers in that volume.


----------



## brett

ultimately, and with rare exception, you get what you pay for. it's not always proportional to the price, but i've found this to be true on average.

also, when you're in the car audio hobby, you end up using so many different products in the search for perfect sound that you'll eventually end up having tried the entire spectrum at some point.

personally, i like to try gear that most people won't simply because of the lack of brand recognition! while it's getting harder for dayton to fly under the radar, they do a really good job of delivering quality and very affordable price points; and there are other brands that do this as well, just cruise p.e. or madisound.

if we're talking purely electronics, i'd prefer to stick with the big boys who've been doing this for a long time.

at the end of the day, though, if you have a budget and you ask the people here on the forum for system suggestions they will more often than not give you the best 'bang for your buck' ideas

.....unless you're interested in critical mass


----------



## MarkZ

brett said:


> ultimately, and with rare exception, you get what you pay for. it's not always proportional to the price, but i've found this to be true on average.


I've found this to be totally untrue in audio.


----------



## brett

MarkZ said:


> I've found this to be totally untrue in audio.


interesting, care to explain?


----------



## BuickGN

brett said:


> interesting, care to explain?


I mostly agree with you. While its not always the case, generally you get what you pay for. Double the price may not equal double the performance but there's usually an improvement.


----------



## MarkZ

brett said:


> interesting, care to explain?


The disparity in prices of various equipment can be huge, and the performance is almost completely uncorrelated with the price, IMO. Especially in home audio, where you're typically paying for the aesthetic more than the actual performance.

There are several extreme examples of this. For example, a loudspeaker system costing 100x the sum of its parts. Literally.

Also, it's not uncommon to see the most expensive equipment also be yesterday's technology, with all its inherent disadvantages and limitations.

You even talked about Dayton in your last post, which is a good example of a company that has a reasonably constructed product line for pennies.


----------



## brett

BuickGN said:


> I mostly agree with you. While its not always the case, generally you get what you pay for. Double the price may not equal double the performance but there's usually an improvement.



that's the reason i almost always buy used gear; you can get killer deals on hi-end stuff, be it small or mainstream companies. plus, i think thats a good place to see how well gear holds up from both ends of the spectrum.


----------



## thehatedguy

What is considered a small company? Are you just considering the front office or the build house attached to said company?

Larger companies do have a larger budget...now it depends on how they are spending that budget as to if the performance is better in the end. If the company is like JL, then I would agree...you see the innovations and performance...though as much as JL has grown, I would consider them a middle sized company. Then you have a really large company like Pioneer who has TAD under it's wings...and they push the envelope. Then you have a small company like Sundown who uses Klippel testing on their drivers...and you get performance from them.

I guess it just depends on who and what you are talking about. This is a very open ended question with a metric ass ton of "what ifs."


----------



## captainscarlett

*From a UK enthusiasts POV*

I don't think there's much of a debate.



Would I choose Sony XPlod sub over a Sundown E-10 sub? No I wouldn't!

Would I choose a pair of JVC speakers over a pair of DLS? No!

Would I buy a brand new Pioneer 4 channel amp or a used Genesis Profile 4 from ebay? "Confirm your bid"!!


There are some huge companies with huge money to throw at R&D ... doesn't mean they're any good!

In car audio my default companies would be *JL Audio* and *Alpine* .. although I've owned 3 Alpine amps and never got on with them. However I'm not keen on the low end JL speakers .. so swings and roundabouts!


*SQ*

Alpine
Morel
HAT
Audison
Hertz
Focal 
Rainbow 
Diamond
CDT
Genesis - Amps
DLS
Mosconi
Seas Lotus
Dynaudio 
Brax
Sinfoni
Pheonix Gold
Zapco
Tru
Helix 
Mcintosh - I've help fit a £180,000 McIntosh Home Audio system


*Crept into car audio*

Dayton
Seas
Vifa
Peerless


*SPL*

Digital Designs
Sundown
Ground Zero
Gladen
AudioSystem
B2 Audio
Addictive Audio
Pierce Audio Products Inc.
AD Designs
Skar Audio
SSA


Are you seriously telling me, you would choose a pair of Sony Xplod speakers, subs or a amp over the likes of these? Do me a favour!!


However, even with that said, I don't care if the magnets are made from some metal from outer space, or if the cones are made from Supermans underpants, what I want to know is; how does it sound?


----------



## MarkZ

captainscarlett said:


> Are you seriously telling me, you would choose a pair of Sony Xplod speakers, subs or a amp over the likes of these? Do me a favour!!


You spelled favor wrong. 

Where do you rank the Sony ES line, the Alpine F1 line, the Kenwood PS series, the Pioneer DEH880 which is owned by like half the people here, or the JL w7 subwoofer? 

What about some of the classic JBL speakers that are considered by many to be some of the best made in their class? JBL being owned, of course, by Harman International...

You're biasing the sample which is skewing your results. If you considered ALL of the big companies' offerings, instead of just the ones you see at department stores, you'd realize that big companies often make very high quality products.


----------



## captainscarlett

MarkZ said:


> You spelled favor wrong.



No I haven't ... read the top line of my post!!



MarkZ said:


> Where do you rank the Sony ES line, the Alpine F1 line, the Kenwood PS series, the Pioneer DEH880 which is owned by like half the people here, or the JL w7 subwoofer?
> 
> What about some of the classic JBL speakers that are considered by many to be some of the best made in their class? JBL being owned, of course, by Harman International...
> 
> You're biasing the sample which is skewing your results. If you considered ALL of the big companies' offerings, instead of just the ones you see at department stores, you'd realize that big companies often make very high quality products.


I don't rate Sony much for anything. Oh sorry ... i do like there TV's. Out of the 120+ headphones I owned, Sony where at best ... cr*p! Never liked any of the Sony gear. 


Pioneer Pioneer DEH880 is a given. Reasonable if not forgotten high end gear. Low end speakers (of which I have a few pairs) ... nothing special. Sure Pioneer are good at head units and they corner the market for DJ gear, but pound for pound, I wouldn't choose them over other brands mentioned 

JBL: TLX20 .. my first ever speakers, then i got the JBL Control 1's ... classic! Got/had a few JBL GTO-804 subs, did quite a few builds for them. Again, when it comes to car audio, IMO they OK, but nothing to set them apart from the rest. The little GTo-804 for an 8" (UK price) is a stormer, however again I wouldn't even put JBL ahead of JL. 



MarkZ said:


> If you considered ALL of the big companies' offerings, instead of just the ones you see at department stores, you'd realize that big companies often make very high quality products.


News to me! 

I just think there's too much good stuff out there to settle for an 'average' product. And from what I see and hear, most of the good if not best products come from what we might deem as *smaller* or *lesser known* companies. The only reason why such brands are big sellers is exactly that ... the brand ... the name. Vibe Audio are the biggest culprits in the UK for producing popular, well liked garbage. but look at Vibes market! When your marketing efforts consists of half naked women in stockings stroking subwoofers ... 


Why would I go on ebay and bid for a Sony amp when i can have a Genesis amp for the same money. Why buy JBL or Infinity speakers, when DLS clear the board when it comes to European SQ comps? Again, are you telling me, you'd put JBL above the likes of Hybrid Audio or Morel Sinfoni or Tru... come on!!!

The only issue I have with JL is they showcase new products now and again, I third of them never seem to make it to market, the other third never come over to the UK. Still waiting for the 8WX sub. Loving the amps, loving the subs, speakers under £100 (I've only owned a couple of pairs) ... maybe. Regardless of the nay-sayers rattling on about clever marketing, I still have huge, monumental respect for JL. I still prefer my Sundown SA-12 and E-10 for SQL though!


----------



## MarkZ

captainscarlett said:


> I don't rate Sony much for anything.


This is the blatant type of stereotyping that I was talking about earlier. You've never used some of their high end equipment, but you think it's bad because their xplod series sucks. Frankly, this is the very definition of ignorance.

Edit: Here is a thread that is 3 pages worth of people drooling over Sony products. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/102278-sony-xm2000r.html
Do you have any experience whatsoever with any of the products in those pictures?



> Pioneer Pioneer DEH880 is a given. Reasonable if not forgotten high end gear. Low end speakers (of which I have a few pairs) ... nothing special. Sure Pioneer are good at head units and they corner the market for DJ gear, but pound for pound, I wouldn't choose them over other brands mentioned


Your fellow enthusiasts here apparently disagree with you, since that head unit is probably the most common one that DIYMA folk buy.



> JBL: TLX20 .. my first ever speakers, then i got the JBL Control 1's ... classic! Got/had a few JBL GTO-804 subs, did quite a few builds for them. Again, when it comes to car audio, IMO they OK, but nothing to set them apart from the rest. The little GTo-804 for an 8" (UK price) is a stormer, however again I wouldn't even put JBL ahead of JL.


 You didn't address the high end JBL equipment that I referred to. You're talking gibberish about some entry level JBL gear, and trying to extrapolate that to everything else they made? Have you tried, say, the 2118 midrange? The w15gti subwoofer? Any of their compression drivers? People with a lot more experience than you RAVE about these products.



> News to me!


That's obvious.


----------



## edzyy

Not sure why ssa is in the SPL catagory. 

They're lineup with the exception of the evil and zcon are SQ subs.


----------



## MarkZ

edzyy said:


> Not sure why ssa is in the SPL catagory.


Because he has no idea what he's talking about.

He also doesn't realize that about 1/3 of the brands in his "SQ" categoriy are actually owned by large companies. Then he goes on to say that large companies aren't as good, or some such nonsense.


----------



## ChrisB

MarkZ said:


> Your fellow enthusiasts here apparently disagree with you, since that head unit is probably the most common one that DIYMA folk buy.


I think most buy the DEH-80PRS because it is the only HU on the market offering the features it does for the price point. To be honest, the Bluetooth on my factory HU is 100x better than the Bluetooth on the DEH-80PRS. While I managed to get over myself regarding that annoying BEEP every time I touch a steering wheel button, I have issues with their crappy implementation of Bluetooth.


----------



## 14642

Sony head unit? Sure. Sony speakers? Maybe not. This has far less to do with the size of a company than it does about the expertise of their product development department and whether that expertise is actually applied to the development of the product in question.


----------



## quality_sound

captainscarlett said:


> The only issue I have with JL is they showcase new products now and again, *I third of them never seem to make it to market*, the other third never come over to the UK. Still waiting for the 8WX sub. Loving the amps, loving the subs, speakers under £100 (I've only owned a couple of pairs) ... maybe. Regardless of the nay-sayers rattling on about clever marketing, I still have huge, monumental respect for JL. I still prefer my Sundown SA-12 and E-10 for SQL though!


What has JL EVER "showcased" and not brought to market?


----------



## 14642

Not making it to YOUR market is not the same as not making it to market.


----------



## Aaron Clinton

edzyy said:


> Not sure why ssa is in the SPL catagory.
> 
> They're lineup with the exception of the evil and zcon are SQ subs.


*Thanks, as I was wondering the same thing, but the the Evil can be used in SQ installs for sure.*


----------



## subwoofery

Aaron Clinton said:


> *Thanks, as I was wondering the same thing, but the the Evil can be used in SQ installs for sure.*


What the woot? :laugh:

Kelvin


----------



## scion1403

I agree that boutiques make better products on average. But here is something to consider a small audio maker may very well go out of business, stranding you without support. They may also deny support or service and they are not accountable like a large company. Also since they do not have the same relationships with vendors of parts they might need to switch parts suppliers in order to keep going and that can affect quality


----------



## santiagodraco

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sony head unit? Sure. Sony speakers? Maybe not. This has far less to do with the size of a company than it does about the expertise of their product development department and whether that expertise is actually applied to the development of the product in question.


Exactly. This is the point I tried to make early on in the thread. Large or small is irrelevant. Ultimately it's about the people and the choices they make. A large company can build fantastic products just like a small company can assuming they have people with the right skills in the right roles - and this includes management making the right financial decisions, R&D making the right design decisions and manufacturing executing properly. At the end of the day the same dynamics drive all of the processes.


----------



## Aaron Clinton

*This is an interesting topic on many levels, as when you see three company heads of differing size and quantity, things quickly become relative.

Sir Manville (JL Audio) - Mega volume with many great different products and top notch facility in Florida, all products stocking, some products made here in Florida some made overseas, moderate to higher price point.

Jacob (Sundown) - Mid level volume and climbing, increasing number of great item offerings, growing location in NC, some products stocking made over seas, some products made-to-order in NC, moderate price point.

Me (SSA) - Small level volume but climbing, small number of great product offerings, small location in Vegas & NY, minimal products stocking while majority are made-to-order all products built in Las Vegas, moderate price point.

So the perspective is relative to the needs and budget of the customers. The point being, it is not really fair to compare (in this example) JL to Sundown to SSA. Each can offer something the others can't, so value and "better products" is all relative to the install.*


----------



## edzyy

Aaron Clinton said:


> *Thanks, as I was wondering the same thing, but the the Evil can be used in SQ installs for sure.*


Really?

Just found my next sub


----------



## captainscarlett

MarkZ said:


> This is the blatant type of stereotyping that Iwas .talking about earlier. You've never used some of their high end equipment, but you think it's bad because their xplod series sucks. Frankly, this is the very definition of ignorance.



Well lets deal with the ignorance first, from someone who told me i don't know how to spell 'FAVOUR'

I prostrait myself to someone who obviously had expereince of evey single Sony product that I refered to. Home Audio, Personal Audio, Car Audio. I was commenting on the few i have tried, and I've no wish to waste my hard earned money on any other. I have installed a Sony £5,500 Home Audio system,that i thought was equally garbage ... does that count. 

If you're really putting Sony above, the likes of Brax, Mosconi, Digital Designs (on the SPL side) DLS ... consistant winners at EMMA ... then that's your personal opinion. Many other do or don't agree with you. But that's your opinion ... nothing else. 



> Pioneer Pioneer DEH880 is a given





MarkZ said:


> Your fellow enthusiasts here apparently disagree with you, since that head unit is probably the most common one that DIYMA folk buy.


Oh dear .. its hard for some people!! 

Not sure that really meant i was saying that the Pioneer DEH880 is a bad product. Just saying many high-end and competition systems use the DEH880 (and previous high-end Pioneer HU's) and as a high-end piece of equipment, is seems to be an obvious choice.

Again, in the UK the range available to us is far less than you have in the U.S. But put Pioneer speakers and amps against the likes of Morel, DLS, Audison ... i couldn't pick pioneer over such brands. 


Some brands _it would seem_ perform consistanly well. Other brands seem to fair not so good. Sony, Pioneer, JVC, Kenwood, JBL, Infinity etc i believe have both their good and not so good products in range. 




MarkZ said:


> Because he has no idea what he's talking about.
> 
> He also doesn't realize that about 1/3 of the brands in his "SQ" categoriy are actually owned by large companies. Then he goes on to say that large companies aren't as good, or some such nonsense.





> might deem as smaller or lesser known companies


I'm starting to doubt your ability to undertand what's actually being said! 




MarkZ said:


> That's obvious.


On voicing your _opinion, on this occassion_, and attempting to slap others down in the process .. i'm afraid you are confused.


----------



## MarkZ

captainscarlett said:


> Well lets deal with the ignorance first, from someone who told me i don't know how to spell 'FAVOUR'


 It was a joke based on the fact that you felt it so important to announce that you were in the UK.



> I prostrait myself to someone who obviously had expereince of evey single Sony product that I refered to. Home Audio, Personal Audio, Car Audio. I was commenting on the few i have tried, and I've no wish to waste my hard earned money on any other.


And *that's* the problem. You commented about a product line that you admit to having no experience with, based on experience with a few other Sony products in different lines. Meanwhile, I posted a thread where at least two dozen DIYMA members gave thumbs up to a guy's collection of Sony ES amps, probably because they had some experience or knowledge of the craftsmanship of those particular products.

I would also criticize those same people if they said, "I owned a Sony XES amp before and it was great, and therefore all Sony equipment must be great!" They would of course be WRONG!

I wish more people understood that it's ok to say, "I have no experience with that product and therefore I will abstain from having an opinion about it." But every-****ing-body needs to feel like they have an opinion about every product ever.



> I have installed a Sony £5,500 Home Audio system,that i thought was equally garbage ... does that count


No, it doesn't. Because it has nothing to do with the products I asked you about.



> If you're really putting Sony above, the likes of Brax, Mosconi, Digital Designs (on the SPL side) DLS ... consistant winners at EMMA ... then that's your personal opinion. Many other do or don't agree with you. But that's your opinion ... nothing else.


At least that opinion is based on something concrete. Your opinion is based on guesswork and stereotyping. *You've never used the products in question*, and I'm guessing you never even realized they existed before this thread. So how on earth could you possibly have an opinion about them? Having an opinion based on experience with something is worth more than making guesses about a specialized line of amplifiers because you don't like Sony headphones.

What you have is not an opinion. It's a guess. Those are two entirely different things.



> Some brands _it would seem_ perform consistanly well. Other brands seem to fair not so good. Sony, Pioneer, JVC, Kenwood etc i believe have both their good and not so good products in range.


That's not about consistency... it's about purpose and specialization. If tomorrow DLS said, "Hey, we have great amps, but a lot of people can't afford them. So we're going to offer a separate line of entry level amps that cost less but don't perform as well." Would you then think less of DLS's original amplifier line? Obviously, the original amplifiers would be exactly the same as what they were before they introduced the entry level line, so it doesn't make any sense for you to then say that they're now of lower quality.

BTW, you list CDT and Alpine on your "sq" list, but both of those companies have done EXACTLY what I describe above.


----------



## captainscarlett

Aaron Clinton said:


> * but the the Evil can be used in SQ installs for sure.*


I do love my Sundowns for SQ. As a UK enthusiast, i don't see SSA bening mentioned here much. I do see a lot of mention on the SMD forum!


----------



## captainscarlett

MarkZ said:


> I wish more people understood that it's ok to say, "I have no experience with that product and therefore I will abstain from having an opinion about it." But every-****ing-body needs to feel like they have an opinion about every product ever.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> I think ... for me its a bit more simple than that. No one has resources and time to try and buy every product line up. Again personally I give any brand my own myoney two maybe three times, and that's your lot. I've no doubt some like specific Sony products as mentioned by yourslef and others, but I thought the disciusion as a 'Whole' was about brands as a whole.
> 
> My personal expereince of Sony ... low end gear or not low end gear (£5,500 HA system)has not been psositive. My experience as a whole with Sony has not been positive, and so asking me to part with my money for something from Sony would be near impossible to do, high-end or not.
> 
> At the same price point, my interaction with other brands like Morel, JL Audio and DLS ... the DLS and JL products .. has been far more positive.
> 
> Vibe Audio ... popular UK brand .. i gave them a lot of my hard eared. having broadened my range and experience of other brands.. I won't give them any more! This is how i feel about Sony.
> 
> Not saying that Sony are on a par with the likes of Boss, Lanzar of Plye ... but in my mind they might as well be ..... if you catch my drift MarkZ. I would say i've had far better experioence with JBL than Sony.
> 
> However i do satnd by my statement that as a whole, I believe the best products come from compaines that some might deem samller or lesser known companies .. Pioneer DEH880 and other singular products are a rare exection to that (my) rule.


----------



## MarkZ

That's fine, but I think judging things "as a whole" is a major impediment to most people in car audio. You will be doing yourself a favor by judging each piece of equipment by its own merit instead of trying to pigeonhole ALL Sony as this, and ALL JL Audio as that, etc.

Even the so-called terrible brands you listed make a few good products. Pyle, for example, has historically made some pretty good gear. A couple guys here even run Pyle subs with great success. The same goes for Lanzar... didn't Stephen Mantz once design amps for them? He then went on to design some very other well-regarded amps, including the ESX Quantum series which people here DIE for 15 years later. Then he sold ESX which was bought by a Japanese company that started making garbage with ESX stamped on the front of it.

That little story I think illustrates exactly why it's dangerous to attribute a certain "quality" to a brand name, or even worse, to an entire company!

That doesn't mean you shouldn't be wary about certain manufacturers, or that some broader conclusions can't be drawn. I think this can be a valuable site when people share their experiences about particular products instead of trying to group everything into one big bucket.

But this is true for most things in life.


----------



## Aaron Clinton

captainscarlett said:


> I do love my Sundowns for SQ. As a UK enthusiast, i don't see SSA bening mentioned here much. I do see a lot of mention on the SMD forum!


*Surprised on being mentioned on that forum.*


----------



## cheebs

most interesting. this is a issue i have as a whole with this subject. most all companies lines are like the tide. you will have this great item and the company will ether surround it with **** products lines or it will cost too much for the core of car audio buyers and or the others in the same line will suck. sucking in this case is ether the product is just plan bad or bad for it's price point. 

the truth is most of the sh!tty product lines are not made for us.(diy guys) they are made for the person who would like a better product than factory but isn't going much farther than that and to them it works fine. the smaller companies just are not big enough to go after the niche market they are in and best buy market too. they don't have the reach. they stick to what they do and do that well. also they tend to be closer to their core market so if a product isn't working the can change faster than the larger ones can. (when was the last time you seen sony or pioneer at a local event.)

second sometimes when a company gets a great product the corporate side milks the hell out of it and kills the rep of the company. than no matter what the company puts out to most people it will say it sucks. say like Audi. Audi makes a great car now but in the early 90s and late 80s they sucked hard and it stuck with them til almost 2000. perfect example is as we know there are a few amps that share the same internals and i am talking about the ones with all the same internals. there are about five or six of them. but some of the are said to suck because of the product name. when you ask why most will tell you about another product line that they had that sucked. think about it you can get a post with 20 people telling you this amp sucks but if you Google it you can't find any bad reviews about it.


----------



## rton20s

Trying to read through that hurt my eyes.


----------



## msmith

cajunner said:


> I think the small company is the one that has the founder still involved in day to day operations, and maybe does some engineering okays or nays.


By this definition, JL Audio is still a small company. The company founder, Lucio Proni, is also the Chief Engineer and directly participates in all speaker design and is involved in a lot of the amplifier design as well.


----------



## 07azhhr

msmith said:


> By this definition, JL Audio is still a small company. The company founder, Lucio Proni, is also the Chief Engineer and directly participates in all speaker design and is involved in a lot of the amplifier design as well.


Do you or he think you guys are still a small company?


----------



## subwoofery

07azhhr said:


> Do you or he think you guys are still a small company?


Not anymore  

Kelvin


----------



## quality_sound

msmith said:


> By this definition, JL Audio is still a small company. The company founder, Lucio Proni, is also the Chief Engineer and directly participates in all speaker design and is involved in a lot of the amplifier design as well.


Exactly what I was going to say.


----------



## quality_sound

07azhhr said:


> Do you or he think you guys are still a small company?


When compared to actual large companies like Pioneer and Panasonic? Absolutely.


----------



## msmith

07azhhr said:


> Do you or he think you guys are still a small company?


Well, everything is relative. Compared to Sony, Pioneer, Bose and Harman we are a tiny company. 

As the government defines a small business, we are one. 

Yet, we're big enough to do some really interesting things and invest in new technology and we have over 250 employees designing, selling and building great products here in the US. (When I started working for JL Audio a little over 25 years ago, I was the 9th employee.)

I guess we're now a medium size company, by car audio industry standards. It's a nice position to be in.


----------



## 07azhhr

msmith said:


> Well, everything is relative. Compared to Sony, Pioneer, Bose and Harman we are a tiny company.
> 
> As the government defines a small business, we are one.
> 
> Yet, we're big enough to do some really interesting things and invest in new technology and we have over 250 employees designing, selling and building great products here in the US. (When I started working for JL Audio a little over 25 years ago, I was the 9th employee.)
> 
> I guess we're now a medium size company, by car audio industry standards. It's a nice position to be in.


 
I remember back then when you guys first came out. Lott's Auto Stereo had your gear proudly on display. I actually just recently had to finally throw my early 90's 15w1 away. That was a sad day .

Because of my knowing your product line then vs now I have a hard time thinking of your guys as small :laugh:. I think I called you guys medium earlier in the thread .


Edit: Actually I mentioned needing a medium group but placed JL in an in between ot an actual big boy.


----------



## scion1403

AAAAAAA said:


> There is a rep for epsilon still on here that is not grizz, and there is Jim from alpine.
> 
> I think it would be hard to distinguish big from small.
> 
> Product line up?
> # of employees?
> Revenue?
> sales?[/QUOTE
> Agreed before we can make judgements we have to compare oranges vs oranges. I think the above point is a great one what constitutes large vs small? Also better in what category? Zuki may make good amps, but can you pick up the phone for tech support? Do they have enough capital to withstand economic hard times? Is the difference in build quality necessary? There are a lot of variables in this conversation. I am not bashing Zuki by any means but as long as we arent talking about lanzar or pyle or other ebay trash one has to eventually consider diminishing returns. Example Audison makes spectacular amps anyone who knows anything wont argue that but at roughly 5-10 times the price of say a planet audio amp... is it a better amp? FOR SURE....is it 5-10 times better.....certainly not. So i think more details are needed to really talk about this topic. Like customer service, warranty support, company longevity, product range, product price vs performance. et etc


----------



## scion1403

I also think it is important to realize that companies like sony and pioneer are huge only because of all the segments they are in. For example sony has 162,700 on the books. But only 54600 are in consumer tech which includes tv, dvd ,video games etc etc. How much of that is in the car audio division? JL audio is a niche market company that does not produce a full line like alpine or kenwood. I think JL audio is a huge company as far as the impact they have had on the industry but perhaps not in other categories. BTW if JL audio made a head unit i would so grab it.


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

I wouldn't consider JL Audio a small company, small companies don't get ad space in triple A game titles. There are dozens of billboards and decals in EA's Burnout Paradise that advertise for JL. They could have picked Pioneer, Kenwood, Sony, or even Clarion but they picked JL why cause when it comes to car audio they are one of the Big Boys. 


Also in following up on scion1403 statements about large V small. Pioneer and Sony may be massive multinational conglomerates that have more money than God but how much of that comes from our little hobby? I'd be willing to be not a lot, when you break the numbers down. JL has it's hands in two (still basically one) Home and Car audio. Same with RF and Kicker. They may not be massive when compared to some of the "Big" boys but when you look at their current impact on the industry and brand recognition they are huge. Also I'm willing to bet JL, RF, and Kicker probably make more or about the same from their products than Pioneer makes on their whole car audio venture when you break the product lines down.


----------



## amalmer71

Hi-FiDelity said:


> I wouldn't consider JL Audio a small company, small companies don't get ad space in triple A game titles. There are dozens of billboards and decals in EA's Burnout Paradise that advertise for JL. They could have picked Pioneer, Kenwood, Sony, or even Clarion but they picked JL why cause when it comes to car audio they are one of the Big Boys.


It doesn't work that way. 
EA didn't choose JL Audio. 
JL Audio chose EA.


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

amalmer71 said:


> It doesn't work that way.
> EA didn't choose JL Audio.
> JL Audio chose EA.


EA had to choose what companies to contact to make them aware of the ad space for sale. A lot of games use fake in game product ads or they just advertise other products that the publisher/developer may have released or in production. It seems rather unlikely for JL to know that EA had a game in development that had to do with racing cars and that EA was selling lot's and lots of ad space to real world companies without having any contact with the company. EA still had to alert JL to the opportunity and small guys aren't made aware of offers like this for one simple reason, they have to be know beyond a small click of hobbyist's


----------



## amalmer71

Hi-FiDelity said:


> EA had to choose what companies to contact to make them aware of the ad space for sale. A lot of games use fake in game product ads or they just advertise other products that the publisher/developer may have released or in production. It seems rather unlikely for JL to know that EA had a game in development that had to do with racing cars and that EA was selling lot's and lots of ad space to real world companies without having any contact with the company. EA still had to alert JL to the opportunity and small guys aren't made aware of offers like this for one simple reason, they have to be know beyond a small click of hobbyist's


Alrighty, then.


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

amalmer71 said:


> Alrighty, then.


Glad we agree.


----------



## quality_sound

Hi-FiDelity said:


> EA had to choose what companies to contact to make them aware of the ad space for sale. A lot of games use fake in game product ads or they just advertise other products that the publisher/developer may have released or in production. It seems rather unlikely for JL to know that EA had a game in development that had to do with racing cars and that EA was selling lot's and lots of ad space to real world companies without having any contact with the company. EA still had to alert JL to the opportunity and small guys aren't made aware of offers like this for one simple reason, they have to be know beyond a small click of hobbyist's


And they couldn't have made announcement like that at something like, oh, I dunno, CES...


----------



## msmith

EA contacted us. We struck a blockbuster deal where we agreed to let them feature our brand throughout the "Need for Speed" franchise. We got some bonus billboards in Burnout Paradise, too. The entire dollar figure exchanged: zero dollars. Sweet deal for both companies.


----------



## cleansoundz

msmith said:


> EA contacted us. We struck a blockbuster deal where we agreed to let them feature our brand throughout the "Need for Speed" franchise. We got some bonus billboards in Burnout Paradise, too. The entire dollar figure exchanged: zero dollars. Sweet deal for both companies.


Its a win win for everyone.


----------



## rc10mike

JL still makes QUALITY products...and thats what matters to me. The same cant be said for other car audio companies...


----------



## Grizz Archer

07azhhr said:


> Do we have any other reps from the big boys though? Andy no longer works for Harmon. Grizz is now at Ground Zero which may or may not be small in Europe but is non existant for now here. Do we have anyone from Alpine or Pio or Kenwood? Almost forgot, and truely sorry Casey, we do have Casey from Morel.


Looking at it from a larger scale, we do well in over 50 countries. And I would do anything to GZ back to its roots in the USA. We were just about there, but now I have to start from scratch looking for another master distributor. We do not need to grow, but it would be badass to see GZ back where it all started, not to mention getting people off my back about accessibility to products. There is certainly a demand for it over there. Couple that with a German line that is more than price competitive and failure is not an option, IF I find the right people...

I am just now going to start searching for threads that inquire about GZ and getting more active again...


----------



## Grizz Archer

cleansoundz said:


> Is it true? Yes or No. I believe that a smaller audio company that is more focused on quality control and product quality will produce better products than companies such as: Alpine, Kenwood, Pioneer, MTX, JL Audio, RF, etc. Smaller companies can be: MacIntosh, Sundown Audio, Incriminator Audio, SSA, Dayton, CDT, Brax, Tru, etc. These products can be speakers, subwoofers, amps, coaxials, processors, etc.


Interesting question... How do we qualify what small is? By gross revenue? By how many people work there? Epsilon has about 25 people just in the office alone, not including the warehouse. I suppose I would consider that fairly large. I know smaler companies that have 5-8 people working there and while they may not do huge numbers, their quality is great. We sell to over 50 countries,, so that would be considered large, yet we only need 13 people to get the job done, which I would consider small. 

Do large companies that have huge tooling budgets makes better products? Sometimes, but that has nothing to ddo with it. Likewise, can a small company with a minimal tooling budget make an exceptional product with no fancy stuf? Of course, been there and done that several times.

So what is the best way to know who really makes a better product? I think it has nothing to do with size but rather passion. Seriously! You mentuioned JL above. Yes, they are big, but they still have passion that shows through in their designs. On the flip side, you mentioned a smalle company that makes products that are mediocre and I cannot for the life of me figure out how the even created a name for themselves. The people that still have the love of music and prioritize that higher than making money, they are the companies that show their passion and dedication through their products. From a simple designs, to an intricate design, after 30 years, I can see who still has passion and who doesn't. And while this all may sound a little silly, any other old schoolers that were around in the late 80s and through the 90s have seen the evolution of our industry. They know exactly what I am talking about...


----------



## frontman

I agree wholeheartedly - it is not really size that matters, but passion for the product!. If the people in the company have passion for a product, they will care about their product and that will translate into how well their product is made - the care taken to make the product.


----------



## Grizz Archer

frontman said:


> I agree wholeheartedly - it is not really size that matters, but passion for the product!. If the people in the company have passion for a product, they will care about their product and that will translate into how well their product is made - the care taken to make the product.


Exactamundo!


----------



## scion1403

All i know is my 6 year old kenwood excelon sub amp is still running strong, and my pioneer PRS amp is 3 years old and runnign strong but the zapco amp i bought new had its exhaust fan shot in the first month... i do not agree that smaller companies always make better products. Larger companies have better return policies, customer service departments. And if you do your research you will realize most of the smaller companies all get their stuff from the same chinese factory....


----------



## gepard

Can anyone tell me which company makes Chairman brand products? I've searched everywhere and I can't find it...


----------



## austin4heatwave

i'll keep it simple when comparing companies compare apples to apples. if your looking at focal don't compare pioneers a series or g series speakers not a fair comparison that's why pioneer has there stage 4 line jbl has there gti line Rockford has a power T5 line jl has their zr line and so on and so forth. trying to justify a companies worth using their budget lines against high end companies is silly. btw sonys main focus is entry level speakers and amps.......if they wanted to make high end gear they would.


----------



## ChrisB

Larger companies have their own engineers, R&D departments, marketing, customer service, and a few other things that the smaller companies can't afford. Just how many of those smaller companies, and even some big ones, are using a customized variant of an "off-the-shelf" Zenon product?


----------



## 14642

Passion is helpful, but competence in spec'ing them, testing them, designing them and/or building them is more important. To become or to remain a successful company, it's also helpful to be able to enthusiastically explain how to use them.

We place too much importance on passion. Passion is what drives one to become competent or to do a good job if one is already competent. Every time I see an ad that suggests that the company's products are better because the people who work there are passionate, I want to vomit. If all the company has to talk about is their passion, I think that means, "we don't have the slightest idea what the hell we're doing, but we care about it a lot".

When you read, "We're the global leader in Premium Audio", that often means, "We used to be the leader in premium audio but now we've screwed that up, so we're hoping if we remind you that we used to know what we were doing maybe you'll buy our stuff." When you read "the global leader in innovation", that means they recognize that you might want to control their device with your phone or use their device to do something to their phone, like hold it in front of you while you sit on the toilet. It could also mean, "Some day we're going to do something innovative, but for now, just using the word is probably enough to satisfy our CEO who constantly asks when we're going to do something that as successful as an iPod. 

Slogans and mottos are often a suggestion about what the company could be doing better or what the company would like you to believe they care about. "Fair and Balanced" comes to mind. "The right relationship is everything" also comes to mind. "Together we'll go far",


----------



## Rishi S

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Passion is helpful, but competence in spec'ing them, testing them, designing them and/or building them is more important. To become or to remain a successful company, it's also helpful to be able to enthusiastically explain how to use them.
> 
> We place too much importance on passion. Passion is what drives one to become competent or to do a good job if one is already competent. Every time I see an ad that suggests that the company's products are better because the people who work there are passionate, I want to vomit. If all the company has to talk about is their passion, I think that means, "we don't have the slightest idea what the hell we're doing, but we care about it a lot".
> 
> When you read, "We're the global leader in Premium Audio", that often means, "We used to be the leader in premium audio but now we've screwed that up, so we're hoping if we remind you that we used to know what we were doing maybe you'll buy our stuff." When you read "the global leader in innovation", that means they recognize that you might want to control their device with your phone or use their device to do something to their phone, like hold it in front of you while you sit on the toilet. It could also mean, "Some day we're going to do something innovative, but for now, just using the word is probably enough to satisfy our CEO who constantly asks when we're going to do something that as successful as an iPod.
> 
> Slogans and mottos are often a suggestion about what the company could be doing better or what the company would like you to believe they care about. "Fair and Balanced" comes to mind. "The right relationship is everything" also comes to mind. "Together we'll go far",



Well Said


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Agreed. Great thread! Regarding the Lambo vs Honda comparison, VW/Audi owns Lambo/Bugatti/Porsche/Bentley/Ducati. That's why the Murci, Gall, & Vent have been huge sale successes compared to the Diablo, Jalpa, & Countach. They added Honda like quality/reliability to supercars.


----------



## Thrius

07azhhr said:


> If nothing else we need a medium group. JL may fall inbetween that group and the big boys. I tend to think of them as a big boy though. They have wharehouses I would imagine thruought the states as I know they have one here in Phoenix. We also have countless shops that sell JL and if you want something that said shop does not have on hand they can have it for you by the afternoon. Small companies will not have wharehouses in other states other then theirs.
> 
> I know when I got back into audio a little over a year ago I walked into this one small shop and was told all they carry is JL and Kicker. I have since found another that carries only JL and RF. I am sure there are others too that rely mostly on selling JL.
> 
> 
> For those in FL I just found this JL Audio - Factory Tours


If I lived closer to FL I would go on that JL audio tour in a heartbeat.

Regarding the OP's question I think it all depends on what kind of R&D budget along with testing the products before release. These are some parts that go into making a quality product so your customers and support aren't left with the fallout.


----------

