# Pioneer Premier TS-D720C vs TS-C720PRS



## customfab (Jan 29, 2009)

I'm having a heck of a time making a final decision and was hoping several of you had experience with both of these Pioneer 6.75" component sets. 

So Car Audio and Electronics has done an extensive review of both these models (links below). Overall they rated the C720PRS at a 80.5 vs 80 for the D720C. The PRS comes with a much better cross-over although it doesn't appear to translate to better sound. When I take in effect the price difference of ~$290 vs ~$130, it would appear an easy decision. I was hoping to get additional input of sound quality of these two. Oh, the TS-D720C is the same speaker as the TS-D1720C. 

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/images/portal/cit_3424/383243804TS-C720PRS_camag_eprint.pdf

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/CAE720Review.pdf


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

I've only used the 720PRS, so I can't say for sure, but my gut tells me they are worth the premium over the standard models. The mid driver and crossover appear to be much better built.


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## customfab (Jan 29, 2009)

89grand said:


> I've only used the 720PRS, so I can't say for sure, but my gut tells me they are worth the premium over the standard models. The mid driver and crossover appear to be much better built.


That's my guess, too. Be nice to know if someone has evaluated both. Hard for me to justify over twice the cost for only a slight sound improvement though. Seems Pioneer outdid themselves with the 720C for the price point.


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## huckorris (Sep 2, 2009)

Something tells me the difference is more than slight. I havn't heard the D720C but I have had the PRS for about 6 months and I love them.


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## Qicker306 (Oct 2, 2009)

Do they still make the PRS? We've had them in the demo board at work for a long time and they have recently went discontinued in our system. Sounded fine, nothing spectacular. The magnets are HUGE! I haven't heard the D series components but as far as the coaxials went they were nice speakers for the price. I'm pretty sure Pioneer discontinued the Premier line up for 2010.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I have owned and listened to both quite extensively. I would choose the PRS, and you should be able to pick them up for less than $290. The PRS mid seemed to dig deeper without any sign of break up; in fact the whole PRS set took more power and got quite a bit louder than the 720C. The 720C was a nice entry set, but the 720PRS is noticeably better.


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## jooonnn (Jul 26, 2009)

mikey7182 said:


> I have owned and listened to both quite extensively. I would choose the PRS, and you should be able to pick them up for less than $290. The PRS mid seemed to dig deeper without any sign of break up; in fact the whole PRS set took more power and got quite a bit louder than the 720C. The 720C was a nice entry set, but the 720PRS is noticeably better.


No question I've owned the 5 1/4 D series and 6.75 series, the PRS series is worlds ahead with the right install, the midbass that is. The tweeter is still too mellow for me even active. Keep in mind this line is more of a "boom" midbass than a snap like Boston Acoustics SX, Morel Elate, etc.


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## morebass (Feb 16, 2010)

Qicker306 said:


> Do they still make the PRS? We've had them in the demo board at work for a long time and they have recently went discontinued in our system. Sounded fine, nothing spectacular. The magnets are HUGE! I haven't heard the D series components but as far as the coaxials went they were nice speakers for the price. I'm pretty sure Pioneer discontinued the Premier line up for 2010.


visions employee.... i bought the last set of PRS's we had at our store


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Different reviewers, and no measurements for either that could help someone make an informed decision.

The crossovers on both - like any prefab component-set crossover not specifically designed for specific drivers in specific locations in a specific vehicle - are worthless except in that they can be broken apart and the individual caps/coils/resistors used in other projects. The PRS crossover looks like it has higher salvage value.

Reading the reviews of both, I'm impressed. Pioneer is really stepping up their car-fi products' value. For $220 list, woofers with copper Faraday rings is not bad at all. Still, compared to the PRS, which is well-documented here and has a fantastic underhung motor, the cheaper one is an unknown.


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## instalher (May 13, 2009)

npdang reviewed the 720 prs check out his comments...


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

customfab said:


> ... When I take in effect the price difference of ~$290 vs ~$130, it would appear an easy decision.


I really think it comes down to cost! Spend $290 or don't! 

At the low end of the 720PRS internet pricing the set was a VERY good buy and the shocker of the last seveal years. At $290 the set is still a good buy. But if that is too much for you, there are other nice under $200 dollar sets like the Alpine SPX-17REF. However at $130 the D720C has to be one of the "BEST BUY" net priced components sets available right now in terms of cost vs. performance. The set is worth the $130 just from the review alone!The 720PRS is/was the same thing...it just costs more and is their midline product. 

Pioneer put everything they know into their ODR line. ODR, PRS, Premier, etc...its all Pioneer sound ....just choose how much you want to pay. 

IMO, I say go with the 720PRS....but then again....one could get the $130 set, then spend $205 shipped for one of the new Clarion 4 ch amps on Amazon with the built in 10x mutiplier crossover and run the set full active for $335....just a thought.


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## customfab (Jan 29, 2009)

You guys have all been wonderful. Great insight. I really want the PRS set as I know it is a proven performer. Yes, you can still find them but not for much longer I would imagine. Thing is, I don't know if I can convince the wife (3x the cost). To make matters worse, I just found the TS-D720C for $110. Hard to beat that for the money. 

You guys said the midbass response for the D720Cs is not as good as the PRS. I'm running a 12" Exile sub in the back and typically listen to fairly chill music such as Matthews Band, John Mayer, J Johnson, Kings of Leon, etc. So maybe that makes up the difference considering what I'm jamming to typically. My 2Pac and mega bassing days are lost since past. 

Funny you mention the 17REF. That was my original target. I've always enjoyed the R-type line and am sure the REF series is wonderful. 

Budget or non-budget. Here's another input.

I'm not running a crazy high-end amp. I'm running a Massive Audio 950.5 amp which is a proven performer for the money but not Zed like. So considering the level of this amp, maybe I'd be wasting my money on high-end components like the PRS set? 






WLDock said:


> I really think it comes down to cost! Spend $290 or don't!
> 
> At the low end of the 720PRS internet pricing the set was a VERY good buy and the shocker of the last seveal years. At $290 the set is still a good buy. But if that is too much for you, there are other nice under $200 dollar sets like the Alpine SPX-17REF. However at $130 the D720C has to be one of the "BEST BUY" net priced components sets available right now in terms of cost vs. performance. The set is worth the $130 just from the review alone!The 720PRS is/was the same thing...it just costs more and is their midline product.
> 
> ...


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

That amp is fine, the differences between amps is no where near as big as some people make it out to be. I'd still get the 720PRS components.


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## TurboTR (Jun 23, 2010)

If you're interested in sound quality, the differences in amps can be quite big actually, especially mobile amps. Some mobile amps do rise above the noise and get things ~ right; many do not.

TurboTR


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

TurboTR said:


> If you're interested in sound quality, the differences in amps can be quite big actually, especially mobile amps. Some mobile amps do rise above the noise and get things ~ right; many do not.
> 
> TurboTR



orly?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

TurboTR said:


> If you're interested in sound quality, the differences in amps can be quite big actually, especially mobile amps. Some mobile amps do rise above the noise and get things ~ right; many do not.
> 
> TurboTR



Yeah....we're going to need some more proof of that besides just a written statement.


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## TurboTR (Jun 23, 2010)

89grand said:


> Yeah....we're going to need some more proof of that besides just a written statement.


Well the only real proof (for many of us, my skeptical self included) will be when you hear it yourself.

Here's a great way to do it- insert the car amp or component in question into a high end, revealing, critical home audio system. You'll generally hear the differences quickly 

T


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Have you ever heard of this clever fellow named Richard Clark? He's got your prize. Go claim it.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Richard Clark's challenge has flaws though... Been discussed many times. 

Kelvin


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

I went to the dealer launch of the PRS component at Pioneer's EU HQ in Antwerp.

Only 12 UK dealers were invited and we did blind listening tests with the PRS pitched against the DLS Iridiums. Amp was a Pioneer home AV amp, speakers were housed in 37L cabinets using the supplied cross-overs, amp was in view and no settings were altered during the test.

11 out of 12 of us prefered the Pioneers-not bad going as the Pioneer's retailed at about half of the price of the DLS...

Against the D720's i couldn't say as have never heard them...


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## TurboTR (Jun 23, 2010)

Poor Richard. Yes, I was skeptical too at first. In my 20's, as an eager young EE student I too believed that specs were all that mattered. Had subscribed to Stereophile (not too bad), Audio, even Stereo Review for years already by then. 

Steroe Review, who used to maintain that "all amps sound the same". Umm, if so, then why even "review" them? lol. 

They have changed their tune of course. Truth usually wins out eventually.

Fortunately I learned it too, though it was a very tough sell at first  And this was about the time CD came out too, which promised "perfect sound forever". Imagine our confusion when the early CD players sounded absolutely horrid.. Practically unlistenable for more than a song or two. How can this be(?) It "measures" so well, so according to SR mag it should be fine..

Anyway, it will change for you when you also hear it. And the sooner this occurs, the better for you. Bon voyage!

PS- with the system in the picture, you can hear differences in speaker cables, etc. The key is, the system has to be very revealing and musical and and capable of doing so. Not many are.

Turbo


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

What exactly are you hearing in speaker cable, and can you pick it out in a blind listening test?

Also, I don't suggest that all amps sound the same under all circumstances, I maintain that if level matched and played at a volume level that does not drive one or the other into clipping and neither are damaged or have any sound processing engaged, and they are designed properly with flat frequency response and distortion below audible limits, they will sound virtually identical, and that any system can be tuned with any amp so that the amp makes no difference other than sheer power output. 

In short, if two amps measure the same or even if they don't but the differences are inaudible they have to sound the same. The only major difference in amp specs between modern amps that would matter is power output, assuming you are comparing similar types (limited frequency response mono amps, full range amps etc).

I choose amps based off of power output, number of channels, whatever processing power I want, size, appearance, reputation for longevity and cost. There's nothing else logical to look for.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

TurboTR said:


> PS- with the system in the picture, you can hear differences in speaker cables, etc. The key is, the system has to be very revealing and musical and and capable of doing so. Not many are.Turbo


I wish I had a chance to experience this when I had really good ears...in my teens. I wonder if I can hear it now? I have yet to hear a difference but have talked to many that have.


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## TurboTR (Jun 23, 2010)

WLDock said:


> I wish I had a chance to experience this when I had really good ears...in my teens. I wonder if I can hear it now?


You can. I'm late 40's, and also recently suffered from something called "SSHL" even <ack>. It's been an ordeal, and I pray that no other music lovers on here are stricken. Anyway, tg I can still hear the diffferences and still enjoy music.

Again, one of the keys IMO is the rest of system has to also be capable of quickly revealing the differences. Not all systems can do this. Some of the components in the picture above are a classic Naim NAP250 amp, Linn LP12 tt, etc. Not shown- classic Linn Kan speakers (extremely revealing), and recently also a pair of Naim Allae floor standers (also very revealing). All of these are well known for playing great music (deservedly so).

You wouldn't bring a plastic system home from Walmart and do a speaker cable eval. Wouldn't work.

No worries, I know this is a subject that one must experience before it is accepted. But once you do, it's a game changer (for the better). Our ears are _extremely_ sensitive..

Don't want to hijack this thread, sorry about that.

Turbo


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

you can't derail that which you dug out of the grave! You pulled this from 6 months in the bin, with a comment that traditionally goes against the logic that has been (for the most part) confirmed true on this forum. So, Its your thread now.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

And I'll even add this, even if it were possible to pick one amp over another reliably enough not be challenged by anyone, in a blind listening test, still does not prove that any amp is better than another. 

One thing I'll bet my life on, is that no one can listen to a random sample of systems, home and or in the car, and be able to state what amplifiers are being used in the system, and that's the only thing that truly matters or proves anything to me. In other words, if someone without knowing anything about the system in a blind listening session can tell if it's a Pioneer receiver, or an Adcom, or a Krell or a Sony receiver, I'll literally leave the forum in shame, but until then, it proves amp brands don't matter and it's all just voodoo and hear say.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

89grand said:


> And I'll even add this, even if it were possible to pick one amp over another reliably enough not be challenged by anyone, in a blind listening test, still does not prove that any amp is better than another.
> 
> One thing I'll bet my life on, is that no one can listen to a random sample of systems, home and or in the car, and be able to state what amplifiers are being used in the system, and that's the only thing that truly matters or proves anything to me. In other words, if someone without knowing anything about the system in a blind listening session can tell if it's a Pioneer receiver, or an Adcom, or a Krell or a Sony receiver, I'll literally leave the forum in shame, but until then, it proves amp brands don't matter and it's all just voodoo and hear say.



Don't bet your life, brother. You never know, we may have uncovered a golden ear here.

Hey, there's a guy who sips English tea and can tell you where the grounds came from and what quantity, so there might be someone out there who can use their ears as well as this guy uses his nose and palette. I'm going to side with you about the chance of it happening though.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Well, I suppose there is some risk to betting my life, but my challenge is much harder than RC's and no one has even passed that one yet.

In fact, it would be worth my life to uncover someone that could get in any car or sit in any ones home and tell them what amps they are using just from simply listening to it.

And in reality, that's the only true measure of "golden" ears in my opinion.


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## TurboTR (Jun 23, 2010)

Interesting, I'd assumed (wrongly) that a modern audio forum, especially a section about SQ in particular would have been well past this little hurdle by the year 2010 lol 

Recently also auditioned some of the finest sounding digital products available- an old Linn Mimik (borrowed from sis, thanks), the new Resolution Audio Cantana (6 grand, ulp) and the new Naim nDAC ($3500). All these vs the old standard DVD player I have (for a CD player). There were clear differences in the sound. 

You just can't account for this with traditional measured specs. The 3 of them vs the old standard were all superior in listening enjoyment. One of those 3 was the ultimate winner, combining amazing, leading edge resolution with amazing tunefulness and musicality. 

Of those 4 products, after becoming familiar with them now, I could tell you which one was playing in a blind test, no problem.

Turbo


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

TurboTR said:


> Interesting, I'd assumed (wrongly) that a modern audio forum, especially a section about SQ in particular would have been well past this little hurdle by the year 2010 lol
> Turbo


You're going to find/are finding, that if anything it is the exact opposite of that. This isn't just a forum of teenagers, not that there aren't any here or that there is anything wrong with that.

This subject is new to you, at least on this forum, but it's old news for many of us. It's been proven many times over what does and does not make equipment sound the same or not.

We generally frown on hear say and voodoo, and so far that's all that has ever been offered when this discussion comes up, which it does on a regular basis.


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## TurboTR (Jun 23, 2010)

The good news is, there is an amazing new world waiting on the other side, once one makes it past this little hurdle 

No worries, we can agree to disagree then. 

And yes, my home system does weave some voodoo magic, I agree  Tg for that I say, and that's why some of it has been in there (still) since as early as ~ '85 in my case. It's amazing stuff. If it wasn't, it would be gone.

Anyway, hope you have a great weekend.

Turbo



89grand said:


> This subject is new to you, at least on this forum, but it's old news for many of us. It's been proven many times over what does and does not make equipment sound the same or not.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

am I the only one who finds it very ironic that fourthmeal isn't just "going to take someone's word for it" and wants "facts"?

I dunno... just found it funny. 


/derail


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

89grand said:


> This subject is new to you, at least on this forum, but it's old news for many of us. *It's been proven many times over what does and does not make equipment sound the same or not.*


Actually, I don't think it has.

I don't claim stake to any of this 'amplifier sound' talk. I'm a bystander. But, I don't think anyone has "proven" anything about this subject. The only thing that has ever happened is one side argues you can hear the difference and another side says you can't. The thread slowly dies and the topic is revived in a new thread (ie: this thread). 
Further proof would be the klippel threads as of late.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> Actually, I don't think it has.
> 
> I don't claim stake to any of this 'amplifier sound' talk. I'm a bystander. But, I don't think anyone has "proven" anything about this subject. The only thing that has ever happened is one side argues you can hear the difference and another side says you can't. The thread slowly dies and the topic is revived in a new thread (ie: this thread).
> Further proof would be the klippel threads as of late.


Honestly, at no time has voodoo ever been accepted as proof, which is the only thing ever offered by the "I can hear the difference between amps" camp. The proof on the other side is if the amp measures the same, at least within the realm of what is audible (and most amps do), the amps will sound the same because they have to, they have no choice. 

The science behind that makes perfectly good sense, and had never been dis-proven. The other side, where all amps sound different and can make or break a system, has never even approached the realm of science.


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## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

Tunefulness?


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## TurboTR (Jun 23, 2010)

Ok 89Grand, please don't read  And in return I promise, no more posts from me in this one 

It's one thing to put a single frequency sine wave test signal into an amp and measure the output for amplitude, distortion, etc. Fine.

But consider also the many amp design variables that might have sonic impact. For example, class A vs class AB, or high bias class AB, or.. 

Consider that amps employ global feedback for example. That feedback nework is frequency dependent, among other issues. And its phase changes with frequency as well. The amplifier is very sensitive to this. Think about it for a bit. To keep the amp stable, the very delicate input signal is deliberately being mixed basically with _another_ signal (a piece of the output, out of phase), but that additional part is not precise vs frequency, temperature, power, etc. Designers probably wouldn't do this if they didn't have to.

Turns out that the choice of feedback capacitor for example has a profound effect on the sound. This is not voodoo really. Nor does the effect show up in measuring sine wave power.

Speaking of, capacitor microphonics for example are another aspect that affect sound. Heard of a condensor mic? Via microphonics they wind up inserting a new, undesired piece of signal into the signal chain. Some are so bad at this that they cannot (shouldn't) even be used in an amp (eg so called "chip capacitors"). 

Microphonics picked up from external sound waves aren't the only issue. Even construction matters. Again, think of a condensor mic. The cap stores charge in an electric field. That field exerts a force of attraction on the plates, and that force makes them deflect slightly (that's physics, not voodoo). Moving plates modulates the voltage. Hey, we now have an (undesired) condensor mic again basically, no extra charge, thank you  

Look up "singing capacitors" on google. 

The chip caps excel at high speed digital bypass for example and are widely used as such, but are so bad at microphonics that you can actually _hear_ them singing in a switching power supply application for example. Switching power supply controllers actually have to avoid operating near the audio band to prevent audible singing from annoying customers. No voodoo there, just physics.

Speaking of power supples, they also get modulated by the amp itself in action (ie pull current out, voltage droops, that's physics) and again wind up inserting their own piece of undesired signal into the chain because the voltage rails are being modulated. Improve the power supply and you can hear it.

Etc, etc, etc..

One of the best things I ever learned in life (from non-EEs no less, and after some 8 years of formal EE training that they had to battle lol) is that your ears are far better at judging the sound of equipment than anythng else. Imagine that. Thanks again guys for that valuable lesson 

Turbo


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## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

TREETOP said:


> Tunefulness?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Just as a Klippel tells you want you need to know about speakers, electrical measurements tell you how an amp will sound compared to another. Again, if they measure the same (or within the limits of what is not audible) they sound the same. There is nothing in an amp that can effect the sound that cannot be measured. In fact, you can even measure things that don't matter such as damping factor and slew rate.

Frequency response, distortion, power output, stereo separation, damping factor, slew rate, IMD, can all be measured. So actually class A or A/B or D or G will measure differently if they sound different. If they don't measure different, they don't sound different.


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## instalher (May 13, 2009)

720 is a better sounding speaker system. period.. and the price is very very good.. as far as amps.. each amp has its own signiture sound as can be seen in the lab.. can the human ear hear this.. hummm i think thats the real question...not due amps sound different.. Now richard clarks test is like saying a lamborgini a mustang and a hyundai pony all go the same speed at 60mph.. well thats true but you are missing so many other points, like how fast they can get there, or comfort, reliablilty, torque, ect ect ect.. dont just concern yourself with one aspect of an amp. look at the complete picuture of an amp and then worry about what it potentially will sound like..if it has the features you want, and trusted reliability, and works in your budget, then thats your amp!


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

Nice threadzirection... Does anyone besides myself even use PRS drivers anymore?? I thought that fad ended years ago now.. lol..


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> [Does anyone besides myself even use PRS drivers anymore?? I thought that fad ended years ago now.. lol..


You'd be please to know, if you resided in the Uk anyway, that Subaru have just signed a deal with Pioneer and the PRS speakers are an optional extra

"By opting for a Stage One upgrade consumers will receive a quality navigation system, the AVIC-F930BT, and a discreetly installed well balanced natural sounding installation offers great sound without compromising on space. The TS-WX77A Active Sub as part of this upgrade offers authentic deep bass, whilst at only 8cm high, won’t invade your boot.

Taking it one step further Stage Two is the perfect fit for any bass head; built to surpass all expectations of bass and volume levels. All doors are fitted with carbon graphite and aramid fibre 300W component speakers powered by a Class-D Digital Amplifier. Get yourself heard and be transported directly to the club with the inclusion of two 10” champion SPL competition winning subwoofers, each powered by a dedicated amp based on Pioneer’s award winning Pro SPL range that continues to break world records by pushing beyond the 180dB barrier. A quality navigation unit is also included to ensure you know exactly where the party’s going. 

Audiophiles demanding the finest audio performance will expect nothing less than Pioneer’s High-end Reference Series, available as a Stage Three upgrade. Combining the most advanced components with innovative technologies and superior materials, this truly superior system produces precise and powerful sound that’s completely in a class of its own. 
DEX-P99RS, PRS-D420, TS-C17PRS"

Shame it doesn't mention how it will be installed and whether they'll deaden the doors etc or what else comes with satge 3.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

No KIDDING... Baron, thank you for that..


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Stage 4 you mean?


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

fourthmeal said:


> Stage 4 you mean?


Stage 4 here... PRS still there... Everything gets watered down in the US, you know this...


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Stage 4 you mean?


No "stages" in the UK, with our superiority complex we are naturally drawn to superior drivers without the need for any indicators


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

The Baron Groog said:


> No "stages" in the UK, with our superiority complex we are naturally drawn to superior drivers without the need for any indicators


:laugh:....


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## ejschultz (Oct 30, 2009)

I'm running the 720PRS comps in my car. I love them. You're not the only one using them anymore.


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## instalher (May 13, 2009)

my Pioneer preped demo car runs them with the ts-m101prs 4inchers, and the monster subs.. sounds wicked. wont change anything..


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

instalher said:


> my Pioneer preped demo car runs them with the ts-m101prs 4inchers, and the monster subs.. sounds wicked. wont change anything..


Oh rly.. 

Check my Sig...


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