# The Magic Bus discussion dump.



## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

*Moderator note:*

This thread will likely be a continually evolving thread regarding Jon W's bus and the discussion stemming from his threads. In order to keep from all of his other threads getting dumped on, this will be the catch all. 

This thread is not a free-for-all for attacking Jon (or Jon to attack others). Keep your replies ... nice. If anyone gets out of line with personal attacks your post will be deleted. Be mindful of discussion. I know this is a controversial topic but this is _not_ OT and therefore a less lenient set of rules will apply.


- Bikinpunk


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## roduk (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

How wonderful, I would love to hear the 'MBMB' but I need you to bring it to the UK Jon


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

The MB should score perfect in MECA, USAC and IASCA - when will we see it at an event?


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## roduk (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



AVIDEDTR said:


> The MB should score perfect in MECA, USAC and IASCA - when will we see it at an event?


I'd love to see this thing judged...


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

An event was suggested but apparently that suggestion wasn't liked and the post removed...


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## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

Lol. Classic.


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## DeanE10 (Apr 19, 2011)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

Has this magic bus ever been judged at an event? I'd love to see it's scores! Not doubting that it will place high in the ranks but would like to at least see where


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## roduk (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

Oh I'm sure it would win.. Would be really interesting to see how high it scored though!!


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

I kinda hoped it would be Newport RI


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## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



roduk said:


> Oh I'm sure it would win.. Would be really interesting to see how high it scored though!!



The bus does sound quite good, and is one of a kind. Jon put a lot of time and love into it. And I appreciate it for that. And it is worth seeing for sure. But to go around promoting it as the best car stereo in the world without ever having competed in it or put up against other world-class vehicles says a lot IMO. "If you don't complete, YOU'LL NEVER LOSE."


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

You would have to have a magic scoresheet first. And a magic pen to write in the scores, then a black light to read the scores that were recorded.

Oh, and only a genie could judge it.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

^Guys, can we stop this? I don't remember seeing the title of this thread being "discuss the merits of the magic bus" and I don't remember John going on here and dumping on other peoples threads.

John isn't the one who name it as the best sounding vehicle ever. It was a title bestowed upon him from a magazine that did a review of his vehicle. No, he doesn't compete, but I'm not sure he needs the validation. This vehicle incorporates many techniques never before seen in mobile audio and has helped to promote the viability of creating a system in a vehicle that is "audiophile quality" by home audio snobs. This breaks a barrier for all of us in changing how car audio is perceived. 

John used to be an IASCA judge (as far as I know) so I am sure if he wanted to attend an event, he would be able to find one on his own, so please stop dumping on him....it gets old.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

And, FWIW, John has not only made available his entire build log, but acoustic measurements, frequency curve, scientific reasoning behind the choice of vehicle and what he did in the vehicle. 

How many of the top guys have done this? Answer - very few, and none that I know of to the extent he did.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Seriously Jerry? I don't even know where to start with all that, but here's my best shot:

-Does Jon get "picked on" or "attacked" sometimes...maybe. But it really all depends on your viewpoint too. Here, on DIYMA, where most people "know him", he isn't helpful, kind, or sharing. In fact, he only IS here when it's time to promote himself. 

-Maybe I haven't covered his entire build log, but I don't remember really see anything "groundbreaking" outside of the Hemholtz setup. Don't get me wrong, that alone is impressive, but it doesn't make him the ultimate innovator above all others. On top of that, the goal of that setup is to get rid of modes. Did you know Earl Geddes has shown you can do it with multiple subs located throughout the room (or car)? So if I build a car using that method, which isn't as flashy--or cumbersome, does it make me more or less innovative. 

-I will admit that I DO think his frequency response plot for left and right (and how they differ above 1khz) is interesting. I'd actually love to know more about it, but unfortunately he links ZERO of the "acoustic papers he's referenced" to help me read about it. So while you say his site is helpful, I personally find it less useful than most build logs on this forum. At least with those the member is active and able to respond with information should you have a question. 

-Jon may have been an IASCA judge at one point. He may have competed even. Unfortunately he hasn't with THE Magic Bus, he shies away from it, and on several occasions has belittled it. Like it or not, competition IS a good metric for understanding where a car lies on the scale towards #1. I could easily say I'm "the best" at something and when somebody asks me to prove it, reply with "competition is beneath me." But then I'm just some guy who claims himself as the best with nothing to back it up. Which brings me to my last point...

-You say that titled was bestowed upon him by a magazine, was not self proclaimed and he is, therefore, unfairly scrutinized. Well, at least to me, the minute he used that claim to promote himself/his vehicle (which he does), he accepted the pressures that would be applied to him for claiming it with no real basis within the community of car audio itself. I impress people with my stereo all the time, but they generally enter with low expectations of what a car could sound like. These people who hail this car as "the best", they may be professionals in the audio industry, but they also probably have low initial expectations of how well a car could perform at audio reproduction. I mean a cooking magazine could say I'm the best singer in the world, but it isn't worth much if the music industry doesn't agree. 

So that's it. None of this I've said is meant to imply the van can't sound good, or great, or even be the best ever, but it SHOULD give insight into why some of us get so easily annoyed by these threads.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

^^^ this. 

If his only posts on here weren't to just dump a press release and actually participated in this forum he might have a better reception. There are plenty of online resources that will broadcast press releases for those wishing to do so.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



pionkej said:


> Seriously Jerry? I don't even know where to start with all that, but here's my best shot:
> 
> -Does Jon get "picked on" or "attacked" sometimes...maybe. But it really all depends on your viewpoint too. Here, on DIYMA, where most people "know him", he isn't helpful, kind, or sharing. In fact, he only IS here when it's time to promote himself.
> 
> ...


So, if he came on here and posted a few pics and gave nothing else of real relevance (like most do), then he would be accepted? Or is the only way to divulge absolutely everything, which up to this point no one has? 

No to pick on anyone, but just to give an example, Mark Eldridge has only posted seminars that he charges for (http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/search.php?searchid=7198796), has posted NO pics of anything to do with his build log or how he has done anything and yet if you look through his threads, I don't see anyone blast him at all, little lone like John gets blasted. 

What is John selling again in his thread??? NOTHING! He post where is van is at and invites US to come and listen. You are right, what an *******!

It all comes down to the competition thing, doesn't it? I mean, if he won best in show every year, he could be an ass and post nothing and be revered. I think too many put a little too much into car audio competitions. 

Do you know I had the only judge at finals one year that listened to my car state at dinner the night before that he loved his BOSE system in his home? Yes, that was his reference. I'm not saying all judges or competition is bad and frankly I do see your point about the reference point of the magazine (who probably never hear a competition car ever other than John's Van) but many on this forum have heard his van, and most have been VERY complimentary. Isn't that enough? I mean, we need to do this every thread? 

Plus, if you come to a place where you have been blasted from day 1, how likely would you be to help anyone. Maybe try being nice (by simple not being an ass in every thread) and he would probably be more willing to help and answer questions? Have you ever asked him a question? I've talked to him on the phone for hours where he has been nothing but helpful, answered every question and provided invaluable insight and information about crossover points, tuning tricks, fab questions, theory, etc, etc.


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## astrochex (Aug 7, 2009)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



pocket5s said:


> ^^^ this.
> 
> If his only posts on here weren't to just dump a press release and actually participated in this forum he might have a better reception. There are plenty of online resources that will broadcast press releases for those wishing to do so.


Since it seems you have never met Jon in person, you would not know how gracious and accommodating he is to anyone who has questions about his system or car audio in general.


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

He's tried to have someone banned for disagreeing with him


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

If you asked Mark Eldridge anything about his car, his build or for help/guidance at a show where you were competing against him he would be in your car working with you to help you be the best that you could be, NO HESITATION. Please don't compare the two of them to each other. Mark has built what many/most consider to be the best sounding car in the world, and he's done it in a car, not a sprinter van the size of a living room. He backs up his reputatation year after year but he never brags, gloats or comes on here claiming to be the owner of the worlds best sounding vehicle. Apples and oranges...


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



Niebur3 said:


> So, if he came on here and posted a few pics and gave nothing else of real relevance (like most do), then he would be accepted? Or is the only way to divulge absolutely everything, which up to this point no one has?
> 
> No to pick on anyone, but just to give an example, Mark Eldridge has only posted seminars that he charges for (http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/search.php?searchid=7198796), has posted NO pics of anything to do with his build log or how he has done anything and yet if you look through his threads, I don't see anyone blast him at all, little lone like John gets blasted.
> 
> ...


Mark promotes knowledge, is an exceptional human being, hosts shows using his own money to give the proceeds to charity, has a real day job traveling the country for his employer, and actually promotes _car audio_ over promoting his own car. His car, which actually is something truly groundbreaking and different. Mark goes to Finals and spends most of his time helping other people tune their cars across boundaries nobody else will cross. It was very thoughtful of you to use him as an example here, but the way you did it shows how little you know of the man or the car. Good for you, Jerry. I hope you feel you made a point with that.

-T


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## DeanE10 (Apr 19, 2011)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

I think it all boils down to this... 

Someone posts information about a vehicle that is "considered by many to be a mobile audio system without rival" to a bunch of seriously competitive people who have actual titles in hand.

How could you NOT expect to catch hell for it?

As for the comparison of Mark, I also agree with Todd and 'chefhow'... The first time I met Mark was at a competition here in Texas. I asked if he could give me some ideas on a few things. He said "Let me get some CD's and lets listen to your truck" and this was 2 minutes into the conversation. He helped me tune up and gave me other advice on items that helped me win that day...

Also.. I could say the exact same things about Todd (highly) too. Very helpful people. Even if you compete against them in the same class they will still lend you a hand to help make you better.

FWIW... Just my $0.02


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



chefhow said:


> If you asked Mark Eldridge anything about his car, his build or for help/guidance at a show where you were competing against him he would be in your car working with you to help you be the best that you could be, NO HESITATION. Please don't compare the two of them to each other. Mark has built what many/most consider to be the best sounding car in the world, and he's done it in a car, not a sprinter van the size of a living room. He backs up his reputatation year after year but he never brags, gloats or comes on here claiming to be the owner of the worlds best sounding vehicle. Apples and oranges...





highly said:


> Mark promotes knowledge, is an exceptional human being, hosts shows using his own money to give the proceeds to charity, has a real day job traveling the country for his employer, and actually promotes _car audio_ over promoting his own car. His car, which actually is something truly groundbreaking and different. Mark goes to Finals and spends most of his time helping other people tune their cars across boundaries nobody else will cross. It was very thoughtful of you to use him as an example here, but the way you did it shows how little you know of the man or the car. Good for you, Jerry. I hope you feel you made a point with that.
> 
> -T


And where did I say Mark was a bad guy? I admit, I don't know him very well....how much you you guys know about John? Lets see, those who have met/talked with him in person, maybe developed a friendship have found he is a wealth of knowledge that is willing to help anyone/everyone. Those who only follow Mark's posts on this forum wouldn't see it that way. If anything, you all just made my point for me!

Oh, and look how quick you guys were to defend someone you know and have talk to, that is a great guy in person! Ask anyone on here that has met John. Yet, it is okay to bash John countlessly, but say anything about Mark and see what happens.....I was purely making a point and it worked beautifully.

But give me a break, and you are right Chef, please don't compare the 2. A Nascar that is a trailer queen vs a Van that probably has 100k miles on it at this point from all the traveling. Definitely not the same. John has a real day job. So do I and I'm sure all of you, what point is that supposed to make? We all know John won't compete, maybe he should, but he doesn't, but do we really need to attack him in EVERY thread he posts? 

Oh, and if you didn't notice, John invited us all to an amplifier design seminar....for free. Yep, just him being a dick again!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



Niebur3 said:


> And where did I say Mark was a bad guy? I admit, I don't know him very well....how much you you guys know about John? Lets see, those who have met/talked with him in person, maybe developed a friendship have found he is a wealth of knowledge that is willing to help anyone/everyone. Those who only follow Mark's posts on this forum wouldn't see it that way. If anything, you all just made my point for me!
> 
> Oh, and look how quick you guys were to defend someone you know and have talk to, that is a great guy in person! Ask anyone on here that has met John. Yet, it is okay to bash John countlessly, but say anything about Mark and see what happens.....I was purely making a point and it worked beautifully.
> 
> ...


Seriously man, pause for a second and think about it as there is a CLEAR difference between the two.

-Neither seems to contribute much to this forum. True.

-Both are said to be great guys in person to those who have met them. True.

-Both have the best sounding systems in the world and talk about it. False x2.

You may not think that competition is a good measuring stick for who has the best system, and maybe you're right. It's a subjective evaluation of cars, sometimes by very different judges and in very different regions. However, if you compete enough to make it to Finals and then go, the judges are the same for everybody, so it's a level playing field. And on that playing field, Mark has stood at, or near, the top for a long time. Think more than a decade here. To me, that gives him a right to at least make a claim to be the best. He has been evaluated by many different judges (for car audio specifically) in many different organizations across a VERY long timeline. In contrast, Jon has not (at least with the Magic Bus) done any of this and leans on compliments and magazine (non-car audio) articles for his claims.

In addition to this, Mark, in my opinion, has the hardware to back up this claim, yet you never see him bring it up. And you would probably more negative comments if he put up his multitudes of championship trophies on display to show how great he is at each show he attends. That should be about on par with the signatures Jon gets and comments/videos he constantly links to. But, surprise, he doesn't.

Two more petty points for the end:

-Quality of judges can vary greatly, and maybe the one you spoke with isn't a good example. BUT maybe he also was speaking about a Bose 301 system which people do consider reference quality (especially the older ones). I don't know, so I can't say, but just because somebody says they "use Bose as a reference" doesn't automatically make them a terrible judge (as you intended to imply).

-His name is Jon and not John. Being a JoHn myself, it's something I notice and thought I would point it out.


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## DeanE10 (Apr 19, 2011)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



pionkej said:


> -Neither seems to contribute much to this forum. True.
> 
> -Both are said to be great guys in person to those who have met them. True.
> 
> -Both have the best sounding systems in the world and talk about it. False x2.


Great Summary...!

As a side note...
If I spent 6 years on a build to equal something as amazing as this bus (making assumptions as I have never listened to it) you can damn well bet I would have it compete at every possible show that those 100k miles would have let me!

*shrug* am I wrong/out of line here?


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## jon w. (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

i appreciate Jerry's kind words and intentions. i believe his points are quite valid, although i'd like to refrain from comparisons. since, for most of you it's about "winning", being "right", and having "the last word", the comparison process results in a never-ending war of one-upmanship, as you've demonstrated. 

here's something to ponder ...

_I too am becoming bitter against Jon's constant use of these forums as an advertising platform and he comes across as very non-genuine. I'm sure the thin representation of his personality here is unfair to judge him as a person, but yeah it's really annoying._ -- Jazzi

Follow-up about 4 weeks ago after i called Jazzi:

_I wrote this awhile ago and, at the risk of starting a much wider debate, I wanted to share an experience I found very valuable. I do not intend to derail my own thread so please help me keep comments on this to a minimum.

In short, Jon Whitledge invited me to chat for many hours over a couple phone calls about various things audio related. I also spoke with a few members of this forum who are critical of his work and his intents, both personal and business related.

After getting a much more clear picture of why Jon's name and his work are such magnets for controversy and also after speaking with and learning more about him and his experiences, I wanted to apologize for jumping on the bandwagon and attacking him along with everyone else. At the end of the day, he's just another guy who loves acoustics and music just like the rest of us, or maybe more than the rest of us!

So if you ever catch yourself doing or saying something but not knowing why, take a moment to investigate and understand. This is one of my favorite things to do, because this is when true learning happens._

Jazzi is a mobile audio enthusiast of the highest degree and found my website inspirational. Please see his build at My 2002 VW Golf stealth SQ build (an engineering student's perspective)

finally, a closing thought provided by 3fish ...

_There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance---that principle is contempt prior to investigation._ -- Herbert Spencer

in threads like this one, i appreciate, even more, my friends and supporters in this industry. i believe they are the ones that truly "get it" and will be the ones to help the industry grow.

-- Jon


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

Jerry, if you want to see every detail of Marks build go to a show he is attending and take a look at the BINDERS of photos and info out and readily available for EVERYONE too see. No secrets, nothing hidden and best of all HE LOVES to talk about it, the smile that comes when you ask questions about the build is nothing short of a ray of sunshine. It would take him DAYS to upload all of that to this site and dozens of pages.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



jon w. said:


> i appreciate Jerry's kind words and intentions. i believe his points are quite valid, although i'd like to refrain from comparisons. since, for most of you it's about "winning", being "right", and having "the last word", the comparison process results in a never-ending war of one-upmanship, as you've demonstrated.
> 
> here's something to ponder ...
> 
> ...


Jon-

I appreciate you coming back to this thread and sharing your thoughts on the discussions that are being had about you. Please don't take my post here as needing the "last word" as I hope to see at least one more response from you and not your "defenders". I was very clear at the beginning of my posts that I have not implied you are a bad person, a rude person, or that your vehicle doesn't sound good/great/grand. I think it should be said again going into this post.

Let's start with your opening paragraph above. It wasn't a "detractor" that started the comparison game, but a "defender". My response to that simply carried the point on for what I felt was a TRUE compare and contrast. If you want comparisons dropped, I'm fine with that.

But please don't say,


> since, for most of you it's about *"winning" *, *being "right", **and having "the last word"*


 as if to imply you're above it yourself. Sure, you may refrain from direct comments or confrontations, but that's because you let your quoted comments and youtube links do it for you. As I see it, you're quotes claim you as being the best (i.e. WINNING) and then use them to equally back that point up (i.e. BEING RIGHT), and then hope the topic will just die after you've said your piece (HAVING THE LAST WORD). It may not look that way to you, but it certainly does to me, and it makes you sound hypocritical beyond belief. Want to know where my "above it all" comment came from??? Look no further than that first paragraph.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



jon w. said:


> i appreciate Jerry's kind words and intentions. i believe his points are quite valid, although i'd like to refrain from comparisons. since, for most of you it's about "winning", being "right", and having "the last word", the comparison process results in a never-ending war of one-upmanship, as you've demonstrated.
> 
> here's something to ponder ...
> 
> ...


Yet another good friend of mine (Jazzi) gets used by you for your own personal gain.
You used Ant in the same manner.
However, you conveniently left out the part that Jazzi is a MECA judge. 
So why don't you compete and finally put your money where you mouth is?
Is it that you're too invested in the project to risk failure?
I suppose "Best car audio ever" and "3rd Place at Nationals" don't sound well together.

Endorsements will get you attention, but actual wins prove and earn the right to the claim.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I suppose "Best car audio ever" and "3rd Place at Nationals" don't sound well together.


Ding Ding Ding!


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Yet another good friend of mine (Jazzi) gets used by you for your own personal gain.
> You used Ant in the same manner.
> However, you conveniently left out the part that Jazzi is a MECA judge and if asked, I'm sure would also be curious as to why you choose not to compete, or in my words, "put your money where you mouth is"?
> Is it that you're too invested in the project to risk failure?
> ...


Go easy Bret. You and I are good friends and I really do appreciate you standing up for me, but please do not put words in my mouth. I cannot be "used" if the words someone quotes from me are genuine, and the ones Jon found were.

I only wish more of the skeptics would take the time to give Jon a call or meet him at one of the many events he has invited you all to. He has given all of you ample opportunity to come and see and "judge" his work for yourself, if that is your singular goal.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



Jazzi said:


> Go easy Bret. You and I are good friends and I really do appreciate you standing up for me, but please do not put words in my mouth. I cannot be "used" if the words someone quotes from me are genuine, and the ones Jon found were.
> 
> I only wish more of the skeptics would take the time to give Jon a call or meet him at one of the many events he has invited you all to. He has given all of you ample opportunity to come and see and "judge" his work for yourself, if that is your singular goal.


Fixed. 

IMO, the reason he spent the time on the phone with you is to turn your opinion so he could use it to his benefit sometime in the future.
Looks like today was the day to play that card.
It's what he does.

*He let's everyone else say for him what he wants everyone to think.*

Keeps his hands clean.


As for auditioning the bus?
If he still charges $5.00 per person, I'll pass.



Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

Bret, 

I think you need to get your facts straight about the $5. It had nothing to do with listening to his van, but for live entertainment or something like that for one of his events. Also, how did he use Ant when Ant voluntarily made the video (or was a gun to his head that I didn't catch)?


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## astrochex (Aug 7, 2009)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Fixed.
> 
> As for auditioning the bus?
> If he still charges $5.00 per person, I'll pass.
> ...


Bret,

This has never been my experience when he has brought the Bus to local meets. Like Neibur said however, when the Bus has participated in live entertainment events, there have been fees for listening.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



astrochex said:


> Bret,
> 
> This has never been my experience when he has brought the Bus to local meets. Like Neibur said however, when the Bus has participated in live entertainment events, there have been fees for listening.


I read that about the fee once on this forum long ago.
Glad to read that it's not happening with your experience.

Jerry, I'll pm you to answer your question.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Yet another good friend of mine (Jazzi) gets used by you for your own personal gain.
> You used Ant in the same manner.
> However, you conveniently left out the part that Jazzi is a MECA judge.
> So why don't you compete and finally put your money where you mouth is?
> ...


took the words right out of my brain - well said sir


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## astrochex (Aug 7, 2009)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



BigAl205 said:


> He's tried to have someone banned for disagreeing with him


That is disappointing.


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



astrochex said:


> That is disappointing.


LOL...yeah. When I took over MobileSoundScience, I was cleaning out the webmaster email box when I ran across a message that Jon had sent to the former owner. When I read that he proposed to "banish" a member for "purveying vitriol", I almost fell out of my chair :laugh:


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



jon w. said:


> i appreciate Jerry's kind words and intentions. i believe his points are quite valid, although *i'd like to refrain from comparisons*. since, for most of you it's about "winning", being "right", and having "the last word", the comparison process results in a never-ending war of one-upmanship, as you've demonstrated.
> 
> 
> -- Jon



Yet you tout your vehicle as the "Best" in car audio.

Let me point out the hypocrisy here.


Via Marriam-Webster, the definition of the word _Best_:


> 1: excelling all others



Therefore, _you _are the one making comparisons through the inherent nature of the use of the word "best". You or others may reply to this case that someone else bestowed this title upon you. However, you freely use it as a marketing line to attract more attention to yourself and services you offer. If you are going to tout yourself as the "best", then you can't very well condescend those who challenge your rhetoric. 


- Erin


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## DeanE10 (Apr 19, 2011)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Endorsements will get you attention, but actual wins prove and earn the right to the claim.


Perfectly addresses the issue! Don't claim a title you never earned...


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

:lurk:


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## jon w. (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

Leave it to BigAl205 to violate confidential information! But since you dug up the skeletons, I’m going to expose the truth. 

You see, about a couple years ago, I received an invitation from a member of mobile sound science to join the forum. I was told that I’m not appreciated on diyma.com and that I should go over to a forum that is more professional and “science-based”. Not knowing any better, I thought it would be a refreshing change of venue with more receptive folks. 

I researched the mobile sound science forum and talked with Adam about the possibility of becoming a supporting vendor. I read the forum rules, which emphasize professional and courteous behavior. With a history of exposure to forum members that cannot maintain professional conduct, I asked Adam what he would do if a forum member were to make inflammatory or defamatory remarks about me and/or my work. I told him specifically that “thehatedguy” would rise up from the woodwork and start with the whole “Robert Harley is technically illiterate and deaf” thing. In essence, Adam said don’t worry about it.

So I paid Adam my 50 bucks and became a supporting member. I offered tuning services and products for sale. And sure enough, like death and taxes, the detractors came out in droves with insulting remarks. First among them was “thehatedguy” and “MarkZ”. 

So I contacted Adam and told him that certain folks were violating the code of conduct of the forum. I asked him what he was going to do about it, such as, call me crazy, enforce the rules he set forth for his forum! I recommended disciplinary action or outright banishment. His reply was that these folks generate forum traffic and that is beneficial to the site. Then he promptly refunded my 50 bucks and said I was too much bother to deal with. In essence, Adam made a unilateral decision to eliminate me from his forum, despite the fact that we entered into a bilateral agreement. I realized I made a commitment to a forum owner who doesn’t care about ethics, simply generating traffic. For Adam it was about “hits” and “uniques” necessary to generate advertising revenue. 

Needless to say, I was disappointed on a variety of levels. I was disappointed by the lack of integrity exhibited by Adam and disgusted by certain unprofessional folks on that forum. Adam asked me to go away quietly, stating that he would give me the courtesy of leaving my posts in place. I agreed and went as instructed, with a “gentleman’s agreement” in place. 

Now BigAl205 has to dig up the past and use twisted facts against me.


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

Jon. If the folks on this forum rub you the wrong way then why post in the first place? Best of luck with your MB :|


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

My only real issue is that Jon USES DIYMA instead of CONTRIBUTING in any way. Posting invitations to an amplifier design seminar is hardly useful to, oh, 99.9% of the people here. 

I've met Jon. I've spent time talking to him and I've heard the bus. He's a nice guy that is genuinely enthusiastic about audio. That said, I still object to him using the forum to his own ends.


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## slade1274 (Mar 25, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

Would you feel differently if he were a paying sponsor/member/vendor?


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



jon w. said:


> Leave it to BigAl205 to violate confidential information! But since you dug up the skeletons, I’m going to expose the truth.
> 
> You see, about a couple years ago, I received an invitation from a member of mobile sound science to join the forum. I was told that I’m not appreciated on diyma.com and that I should go over to a forum that is more professional and “science-based”. Not knowing any better, I thought it would be a refreshing change of venue with more receptive folks.
> 
> ...


First of all, I didn't mention any usernames since a few of them are not here to have a say in the matter, nor did I post your email for everyone to see. 

Second, leave Adam out of this. He was more professional and courteous than most anybody else would have been. You were the one who brought up the idea of refunding the vendor fee, and Adam graciously complied. 

Third, the forum was never a money-making proposition. The only revenue that he brought in was to pay the hosting fee and have some left over to buy test equipment. It was never about "hits" or revenue.

Lastly, Adam nor anybody else asked you to leave...you simply took your ball and went home.


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## jon w. (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

BigAl205,

you have your facts wrong. i tried to work with adam to reach a positive outcome. i recall exchanging phone calls. in spite of my efforts, he put money back in my paypal account without my knowledge or approval. after he did that, i had no choice but to leave. unprofessional, disrespectful. period.

after i posted, it occurred to me that i misspoke. i think it was DS-21 who started the whole "Robert Harley is technically illiterate and deaf" thing, not "thehatedguy". i apologize. nonetheless, thehatedguy ranks a close second to DS-21 in the art of defamation and senseless inflammatory remarks.

all of this comes down to professionalism and respect. it's fine if you don't want to come to see my exhibit or benefit from steve's amplifier knowledge. all i ask is that you don't muck up my thread with your useless drivel.


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

Unprofessional. Defamation.


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## jon w. (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



quality_sound said:


> My only real issue is that Jon USES DIYMA instead of CONTRIBUTING in any way. Posting invitations to an amplifier design seminar is hardly useful to, oh, 99.9% of the people here.
> 
> I've met Jon. I've spent time talking to him and I've heard the bus. He's a nice guy that is genuinely enthusiastic about audio. That said, I still object to Jim using the forum to his own ends.


quality sound,

you should know better. "instead of contributing in ANY way" - really? have you seen the video entitled, "industry legends discuss sq mobile audio"? making that took hundreds of miles of driving, days of pre-event set-up and validation, and days of audio/video editing. it featured an impressive panel of industry legends. it was because i strongly believe in changing our industry and helping Buzzman, a truly professional supporter of mobile audio. 

what really got me, though, was the lack of viewership. just for comparison, the thread entitled, "so i **** in my car" got more views and replies than the video. watching that unfold was indeed a sad day for mobile audio. 

secondly, did you not read Jazzi's build log? or dozens of other threads that discuss audio system design and performance? have you visited my website? it is chock full of useful information. have you seen mr. bateman's post about his listening experience in the magic bus and the subsequent discussion that followed? 

when ANT volunteered to "sticky" his video testimonial for the magic bus, i asked him, "what can i do to reciprocate?". his answer was simply this, "you've contributed enough already". it puzzles me how the OWNER OF THE FORUM can feel this way, but some of its members do not. 

your negative comment about the amplifier seminar is inappropriate. there are plenty of people on this forum who would find this useful and enjoyable. who are you to judge the value of a seminar, anyway? why don't you attend the seminar rather than discredit it?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

Jon,
My main gripe with your posts is they have a "I'm the only one who has done anything for car audio" air. And we know that's not true. I (hope) believe you don't feel that way. However, it certainly comes across that way. You may be the nicest guy in the world in person and have every great intention on exhibiting that but your posts don't seem to do a good job of conveying that. Even your original posts; not just the subsequent ones where you feel you are being attacked (at which case, I could understand being testy). 

There are numerous others here who have been contributing with technical information to the site for years. In fact, when it was founded, that's essentially the ONLY discussion that took place. Nyugen (NPDang) posted driver measurements from the conception of the site and a few others (myself included) have helped carry that torch for years. I now have my own site where I provide driver data so the audio community (not just car audio) can better understand what they're hearing and make educated decisions on purchases. My build log as well as others' has been purposed to be as helpful as possible and explain why steps were chosen and where compromises were made. My point in saying this is simply to remind you that while you have provided a lot of detail, there are numerous others here who are doing the same. Maybe we don't all have helmholtz absorbers (because, I for one cannot fit them in my civic) but we all have made a contribution to help better the foundation of the who/what/why/how of car audio sound quality. Then there are others who are not necessarily active on forums but are out there at all sorts of MECA & IASCA shows regularly helping teach and share knowledge along with providing real world feedback on a level that a forum post could never accomplish. 

I do appreciate your efforts to provide the information you have on your site. On the flip side, I have an issue with the title you've chosen to use for your bus and the demeanor you have when it's challenged in addition to the attitude that you are the only one in this hobby helping to push it. I understand you are helping the home audio crowd understand there is more to car audio than what they may think. The others of us who don't have that opportunity are helping spread the word on forums and helping other car audio guys better understand there's more to it than just BASS. At the end of the day we are indeed trying to further the community. 

While you may feel belittled by posts here, the majority of us feel the same when we read your posts claiming your car as the "best". When you place a title like that as part of your propaganda to attract people to your events, you should only expect that the others in the hobby who have worked long and hard to help further it will feel what I can only equate to as a "slap in the face" and will therefore take exception. It's just ironic you say you feel comparisons are unnecessary yet use one yourself. It's that exact reason you have caused such a staunch divide within this community. If you don't understand why, I really don't know what else I can do to explain it to you. 

- Erin


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

Lost a long post arrrg...why is there no auto save feature in this bbs?

Ok, come to the show. Amp seminar is not free, $15 per day $40 for all 3 days . You will learn more going to these seminars than you could in 15 years of reading DIYMA.

You can meet industry guys that make you feel like you have the brain power of a flea.

I'm putting up free beer to any DIYMA person who comes to my room 532 in the Hilton and I will not kick you out because you guys could not possibly afford my speakers. You guys would be a detriment to sales taking up space from qualified customers....But I don't care, I doubt more than 4 people will show. Our lowest priced speaker costs $10,000 ( we did "compete" by being reviewed and got a Brutus award for our speaker from Positive feedback Magazine within the year). But we have not made it to the big time competitions (TAS and Streophile, and might never since we have no advertising budget).

How do I know you guys can not afford it? Because to prove it if you have a post count of more than 50 I will sell you any speaker in my line at cost + 10% (that's what my sub reps get as a deal) ....I know you guys would dump your cash into a better car with a new system long before my speakers no matter how much you like them because you are "car guys". I won't give you any product literature, nor will I take you seriously if you pretended you wanted to buy...so no literature, no sales pitch, its not worth our time to BS each other, just come and get a free reference. 

SERIOUSLY, No BS just come and hang out and if you have a set of 6x9 Jensen sparkomatics in your rear deck and an 8-track you already have my respect .. (I would respect someone who plays that as a diehard music lover, not an audio lover).

Even if I had the worlds best Audio system in my car I would probably never compete because it would be like having judges from an "all you can eat hotdog contest" judging food from the French Laundry.. I just don't feel car audio judges know sound. First, hear NON AMPLIFIED MUSIC , played by top musicians, playing top quality instruments like a Stradivarius violin, or hear yo-yo ma on his good cello, not the carbon fiber one...in a top quality venue like Symphony Hall in Boston. Miss any one thing from the above equation..you do not have the best reference, you have a compromised reference . Non amplified, great hall (not good but world renowned rest hall), best instruments, best musician, hopefully playing the best music. BTW I really don't like classical music much, I endure it to be better at tuning systems. It really really helps to have a 1st tier reference.

Any recorded music that is subsequently reproduced is a second tier as a reference at best. Not having a high speed wide master tape running...??...well CD ain't reference. 

So come to the show. Get a better reference than you already have.

Call me a snob?? Pretty laughable , the fastest way to become poor is to try and sell $10,000 home speakers. My car system is worth almost double what I could sell my car for. My home system is worth more than what I could sell the house (not including the land) that I live in. But, a poor guy, I believe in sharing the wealth, so I will have an amazing sounding room (95% sure of that) at the show, come share it with me while it lasts and I have to give all the loaners back to the manufacturers.

I am in room 532 in the Hilton running Chapman speakers and MIT cable, I'll treat you like a king and get you the center seats. If even one person or judge leaves with a better reference ..I will feel I have contributed constructively to DIYMA.

Should JW compete? I think so. Even if he gets 5th being judged by the all you can eat hot dog crew instead of by the worlds best food critics. If he doesn't he is just wasting bandwidth by people,calling him "chicken", and not standing up for his efforts. 

*I WILL PUT UP $5 towards JW's gas and entry fee and hotel cost to see him do it, if enough people think it is worth having his MBMB judged he will raise the cash fast. For the exposure beyond car audio mags that his MBMB has gotten the industry I think he has earned my $5.*

Do I think he will win? I don't know, but if he went to enough competitons he would probably eventually win one or several. I was a world champion athlete, and it took me several to win a title...does it mean I am the best? No it just means I joined a crew near the top , one of which, is possibly " the best" of those who competed over the years.

Federick Nietzsche said "without music, life would be a mistake"

*To not go to T.H.E.Show Newport where you can walk to it....across the street and two blocks down from the Orange County John Wayne (SNA) airport ....well that would be a huge mistake*.

Apologies in advance for using the hotdog comment..I am sure tons of people will post how they have a great home system.."hey..I have Martin Logan's that cost $12,000, and Mcintosh amps, and a separate D/A.....etc..) I can assure you...that is not considered high end. In fact no one would give it a second listen at this show. There will be manufacturers there that dealers do not want to carry great audio because they are "game enders" not just lateral moves. Dealers hate it when a person buys a game ender system and never spends a dime more with them....customers for expensive gear are very hard to come by. High end home audio....It's a better than cocaine...it makes you poor, and a tweaker without ruining your septum.

So room 532 free beer in the Hilton. We have a sister room in the Atrium with smaller speakers run by Wells Audio, do not bug them, they want to sell gear. I will treat you as my brothers. I expect if you come by you spend at least 30-45 minutes getting a reference that will help you for years in car audio. We are trying for best of show, we even have $44,000 speaker wire, and over $100,000 in power conditioning, interconnect , wire etc. to run our $20,000 speakers, that's not including the electronics!

Want to hang out after the show? I'll play any hi rez music you bring ...including lowly CDs. No Justin Bieber allowed, I have to draw the line somewhere. 

Come laugh at the high end guys who are too stubborn to EQ HUGE SCREW UPS IN THEIR ROOM. It frickin' kills me every year...lol! Like pick the lesser of two evils...they think EQ is Satan... But I will give them this, when high end is done right...it is more mind blowing than any other audio, better than car, even better than live amplified concerts...it's really really cool. And you won't hear it in stores..that I can assure you, even if you go to the best audio stores in the USA. ...the systems are set up and broken down too often to optimize them.

A very few rooms will get it the sound right and be worth double the cost of admission..the seminars...well frankly they are priceless to anyone in car audio....see any single one and you got our money's worth.

The cheap beer is on us. The owner....Blew his high end beer budget on Duelund capacitors (sounds familiar ?...? )

Love to see you guys there, even if you never make it to our room.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Do what?


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



Golden Ears said:


> Lost a long post arrrg...why is there no auto save feature in this bbs?
> 
> Ok, come to the show. Amp seminar is not free, $15 per day $40 for all 3 days . You will learn more going to these seminars than you could in 15 years of reading DIYMA.
> 
> ...



How the f*&k is this even relevant?

So Jon, if I give you $50.00........


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## onebadmonte (Sep 4, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



bikinpunk said:


> Do what?


X2 

WTF just happened?


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



onebadmonte said:


> X2
> 
> WTF just happened?



The original post is about attending the Newport show. It got derailed into an issue about not competing with the magic bus.

I want people to come to the show.

Pretty simple . I think the intent of the OP was to get people to T.H.E. Show Newport beach.

I want to invite people to the show too without coming off as a snobby high end guy .

I want DIYMA people to come because they are , for the most part , a great bunch of guys and would enjoy the show.

Do I think JW has the worlds best sounding car, ?..no..it is good, but not to my taste to be considered best. Is he generous with his time? Yes I think so, and I do not think he is a mean guy, he is into audio like all of us are. Does he make a good living from promoting his van,,, I don't think so . Should he compete at least once? I really strongly believe he should , or it appears to usurp the efforts of people who have gone through the regular process to be proclaimed "best". 

That all being said, go to the show, even if you personally attacked JW on a website I bet he would still be honored to put you in his bus and have an extended listen, you would still leave thinking he should compete...and You may like your own car better ... He probably wouldn't hold anything written against him or his bus to heart, certainly not be angry with you, he strikes me as one of those guys who isn't really capable of becoming angry...it's just not his nature.

Not to defend the guy,,,, just check out the show and his bus...warning..it's a long line to listen.you sign up for a time slot IIRC .., and post up what you think...free country...


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## cAsE sEnSiTiVe (Jun 24, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

I'll be there. I annually attend the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest....but this will be my first Newport show. I will get in line and hopefully get a listen to Jon's rig, along with all the hi-end home audio rooms. I've listened to Bigg's Regal, Mark's 4-Runner, Harry's Acura...etc..etc, and currently own Steve Cornell's Impala....so I've heard some of the better cars out there. It will be interesting to see how Jon's Sprinter sounds.

Looking forward to it.

Bob


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



Golden Ears said:


> The original post is about attending the Newport show. It got derailed into an issue about not competing with the magic bus.
> 
> I want people to come to the show.
> 
> ...


I really wish I could attend, but unfortunately I won't be able.

With that said, I think it is absolutely pathetic that a regular forum member had to try to redirect this thread back on topic (point of the thread was to invite people to the show and promote the show) while at least 3 moderators aided in keeping it off-topic.

I though one of the moderators jobs was to do this? Maybe I mis-understood, although I recall them re-directing other threads back on topic (with threats at times) when it suites them.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



Niebur3 said:


> So, if he came on here and posted a few pics and gave nothing else of real relevance (like most do), then he would be accepted? Or is the only way to divulge absolutely everything, which up to this point no one has?
> 
> No to pick on anyone, but just to give an example, Mark Eldridge has only posted seminars that he charges for (http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/search.php?searchid=7198796), has posted NO pics of anything to do with his build log or how he has done anything and yet if you look through his threads, I don't see anyone blast him at all, little lone like John gets blasted.
> 
> ...


I fully agree Jerry. The best advice I can give is people throw rocks at things that shine. There is nothing Jon can do to stop people from dumping in every thread he makes, nothing. In addition there's the pack mentality around here, instead of thinking for yourself you jump on the bandwagon. There are people who post simply to be condescending assholes even towards people that are in another league in car audio and intelligence. 

I would love to see the Bus enter a competition but if I were the owner and designer of the Magic Bus I would be hard pressed to enter it into competition. I've thrown around the idea of competing and along with that idea is trying to figure out how to hide my Dyn 110 tweeters because of the bias against Dyns due to whatever poorly thought up excuse people come up with. If I owned the Magic Bus I obviously couldn't disguise it and if the judge knows the bus and/or has been a member here I would be seriously concerned about getting a fair chance. Suppose you get a poor judge and a poor score, it would be talked about for years and used to discredit the Magic Bus at every opportunity. Besides that, the Bus is about more than what some sq competitions are about. The Bus has an amazing stage and I'm sure it would do well technically. However, the Bus differs from a lot of the winning competition cars in its dynamics and especially the life like sound and emotion of the music. This is just my opinion of 5-6 songs in the Magic Bus but it excels in making you feel like you're at a live event. Also unlike many competition cars, Jon is not afraid to have plenty of sub bass. 

I've seen first hand how some of the car audio guys approach Jon before knowing what he's all about. I was sitting in the drivers seat when some others climbed in the back seat with Jon in the passenger front seat. They asked questions but did so in a condescending way. They were like hecklers in the back seat making smart ass comments and laughing about it during the demo. Just a complete lack of respect. I have a bad temper when it comes to disrespectful people so I asked Jon to turn it up. 

Why would he want to come over here and try to have a conversation in a place where he's bashed no matter what he says. Jon is not a snob, when you meet him you realize he's extremely enthusiastic about what he does. He likes to talk about events and his own work. Be likes to talk audio. I don't know what's so wrong with that. People around here try to make him out to be a certain way so they can join the mob and throw out insults together. It really makes people look small when they do this out of what's most likely jealousy. Since the name has been thrown out, Mark Z is one of the most bitter people around. I'm glad to see he's left this forum. He will try to bash and belittle anyone and anything that's better than himself and he's not afraid of getting personal. It does not surprise me he attacked the Bus, it fits his personality profile. 

I would suggest Jon pay the vendor fee to shut those up who claim their only problem with him is using the forum to promote the Bus but we all know that wouldn't make a dent in the bashing. 

People are nice to others even when they're vulgar and disrespectful and contribute nothing but as soon as someone comes around that is considered a threat no matter how well mannered they are, the bashing begins. I honestly don't know why Jon comes around. There is nothing he can say that won't get picked apart and twisted and turned around.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



cAsE sEnSiTiVe said:


> I'll be there. I annually attend the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest....but this will be my first Newport show. I will get in line and hopefully get a listen to Jon's rig, along with all the hi-end home audio rooms. I've listened to Bigg's Regal, Mark's 4-Runner, Harry's Acura...etc..etc, and currently own Steve Cornell's Impala....so I've heard some of the better cars out there. It will be interesting to see how Jon's Sprinter sounds.
> 
> Looking forward to it.
> 
> Bob


I'm looking forward to your review of the Bus having heard so many of the big names.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



Niebur3 said:


> I really wish I could attend, but unfortunately I won't be able.
> 
> With that said, I think it is absolutely pathetic that a regular forum member had to try to redirect this thread back on topic (point of the thread was to invite people to the show and promote the show) while at least 3 moderators aided in keeping it off-topic.
> 
> I though one of the moderators jobs was to do this? Maybe I mis-understood, although I recall them re-directing other threads back on topic (with threats at times) when it suites them.


You're not suggesting a bias, are you? Lol.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*

Jerry, if you want to call me out, call me out. I do agree with you that maybe this has gone on a bit too far in a thread not necessarily geared for the direction it's headed so read below.

Matt, bias ... against whom? For whom?


Look, every time Jon posts one of these threads, this is what it becomes. Yes, I see the irony in letting it fester. However, it's his own doing. It's annoying to have him cry foul about people questioning his title of best. Logically, where is the sense in that? So, as long as he promotes himself as the 'best' without a means to gauge this, he can fully expect people to question it. At this point, I have not attacked him nor dogged him. I have, however, questioned his rhetoric. When is this not allowed in a discussion thread? Where else does this fit? In another thread about the Bus itself? Fine... I'll split it off. We can carry further discussion regarding this topic in another thread just as I've done with all the other threads I've had to moderate (including a couple of yours). That seems the fair thing to do. 

Let me pose this question: what would you guys do if I started calling Steve Cook's car the best? He's won multiple championships. Does this take away from Jon? I think Jon might take offense to it if every time he posted his "best" car audio system, I followed up with a link to Steve Cook's truck. Should I do that? Do I really need to? I don't think so. Hopefully you guys get my point here. 


Truth be told, Jon should be a paying member of this site if he's going to use the site to market his work. My beef isn't with that, though it is others'. My issue of discontent has already been stated a couple times.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Thread split.


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## roduk (Sep 19, 2008)

Thanks for splitting it, was a bit cringeworthy.. If Jon is into music the way he is, there is no way that the MBMB will sound awful. In fact I bet it's unbelievable. If I was in that part of the world, I'd go and listen before posting anything about how I think it 'might' sound.. I would love to see him enter and clean up tbh!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I don't at all doubt it sounds great. I never even implied it didn't. I've positively replied to his efforts to explain what he's done and the data he's provided. I think that kind of info is great. 

I just fundamentally disagree with how he presents himself to the world as the best which stands in stark contests with his stated goals of bringing us all together.


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



bikinpunk said:


> Jerry, if you want to call me out, call me out. I do agree with you that maybe this has gone on a bit too far in a thread not necessarily geared for the direction it's headed so read below.


It wasn't just you Erin, there were 2 other mods who also did the exact same thing. Thanks for splitting this off.





bikinpunk said:


> Truth be told, Jon should be a paying member of this site if he's going to use the site to market his work.


This is where there seems to be a lot of grey or maybe favoritism going on here. I can, if you would like, probably give you 10-15+ other member doing the exact same thing and they are not asked to pay any vendor fees. I don't now if there are hard/fast rules, I though there were, but I have PM's showing the blatant inconsistency from the DIYMA mod staff.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Trust me. We've tried to address a lot of it. At some point that is out of our hands. That's all I can really say on the matter.


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

So bottom line: Jon tried to get some guys banned for arguing with him, and his excuse is "It was supposed to be a secret"

Gotcha!


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



cajunner said:


> you started off with ANT's Klippel, then gave it back, got one for yourself and started testing drivers.
> 
> All in this forum.


And your point is? 



cajunner said:


> None of this is seen as self-promotion first, but eventually you develop a site for yourself that has reviews of products and we don't know anything about how you test for others, why some get tested and some don't, lots of little things.


Yes, you do know everything about how I test for others. Look at my site; I list all the details there. It's there; plain and simple. Here, I'll feed you:
Test Setup and Methods | Medley's Musings

^ That's been part of my site since before I tested anything for it. 




cajunner said:


> My understanding is you now charge for testing, and as a favor to ANT you tested his Funkin Audio subs, so he could have the parameters to sell his product more effectively. That's great. Then he either didn't want to pay to ship them back, or he gave them to you for your service, but now you're charging people half-price, which is in-effect, making money off the forum.


Well, then frankly, your understanding is wrong.

I haven't charged any mfg or person here a fee for testing drivers I've posted on my site. You're referencing when you asked me what it would cost to test 16 drivers and match them for you. That's a personal service. Not a service to the site and I quoted a ridiculous number to point that I just wouldn't do it. Not to make money off you. I said something to that effect. 

As for the FA subs, I talked to Ant about this before posting them for sale. He sent them, I tested them as a favor to him and to help others know exactly what they were getting, he said he didn't want me to bother with return shipping (I can only assume because he just didn't want to deal with it). If someone sends me something to test and doesn't want it back then I have no issue selling them because at that point they are mine and I can do with them as I see fit. In fact, the FA subs were the first ones I've done with this. I do have another set of drivers a certain mfg sent me a few months back and have since told me they don't want back because they can't sell them and they'd just lose money in the process. 

I'm not running the Klippel as a paid-for service for engineering or driver development. Get your facts straight.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Just to clear this up before it gets blown way the heck out of proportion, the reason I think Jon W should be a paying vendor (as well as others) is that Jon is advertising a service. Look at the picture in the thread this was split from. Look at the bottom right. His company, Whiteledge Designs, is intended to help design a car audio system or home audio system (and I assume install, tune, etc to some large degree). 

Bottom right corner:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...e5686-2013-t-h-e-show-newport-beach-flyer.jpg


Jon isn't advertising these things explicitly but as a company owner who tags his marketing with such advertising slogans, I think he falls in to the vendor category. 

BUT AGAIN, I really don't have a huge can to kick here. *My issue with Jon and his presence here is directly attributed to the way he presents his car as "the best" and then feels members to be mean or spiteful when he is questioned. * (bolded so you get the point). You can't expect to have everyone willingly accept such a title and not be met with scrutiny or skepticism. I have no problem saying this to Jon's face and at the same time appreciating his role in the community for the work and install detail he's provided.


I really have no idea how else I can state it. People are trying to make my words much more than they are when I'm telling you guys flat out my issue as a hobbyist.


Edit: I can't spell.


----------



## jon w. (Nov 14, 2008)

dear Golden Ears,

i appreciate your post and your viewpoints. i'm sorry, but i should remember who you are. i tried to find the name corresponding to room 532 but i couldn't cross-reference it. do you mind revealing your company name? 

i'm curious, what value do you assign to robert harley's review, especially relative to the IASCA and MECA judging process?

if you feel comfortable doing so, please explain to the folks on this forum what you would do if robert harley declared any of your products to be "the world's best". 

you bet i'm coming up for a beer  i hope others will, too. i look forward to seeing you at the show.

jon


----------



## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



DeanE10 said:


> Perfectly addresses the issue! Don't claim a title you never earned...


zing!


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Just to clear this up before it gets blown way the heck out of proportion, the reason I think Jon W should be a paying vendor (as well as others) is that Jon is advertising a service. Look at the picture in the thread this was split from. Look at the bottom right. His company, Whiteledge Designs, is intended to help design a car audio system or home audio system (and I assume install, tune, etc to some large degree).
> 
> Bottom right corner:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...e5686-2013-t-h-e-show-newport-beach-flyer.jpg
> ...


And when anyone (like yourself) posts a sound-off flyer, such as (see attachment), I guess it is okay because you posted it instead of Steve? I mean, yes it's a competition, but it is at his shop, where he sells car audio. Not unlike what Jon posted.....at least IMO.

As you know I am very sensitive to the whole "Vendor" issue as there are many not just promoting but also selling, without paying a thing.


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## jon w. (Nov 14, 2008)

dear bikinpunk,

i would LOVE to become a vendor. but as a potential vendor, i would expect SERVICE and SUPPORT. i've already been burned by another forum, so i'm reluctant to make the same mistake twice. it all depends on you, the moderators, and the members of this forum. if moderators would uphold the rules of the forum regarding etiquette and professionalism, i may consider it. the members also need to do their part - all i ask for is courtesy and professionalism. at the very least, i would expect the folks who don't appreciate my work to remain quiet. i'm not out to diminish the work of others, as some may think. i'd simply like to promote my design, fabrication, and tuning skills, which i believe are among the finest available.

jon


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> And when anyone (like yourself) posts a sound-off flyer, such as (see attachment), I guess it is okay because you posted it instead of Steve? I mean, yes it's a competition, but it is at his shop, where he sells car audio. Not unlike what Jon posted.....at least IMO.
> 
> As you know I am very sensitive to the whole "Vendor" issue as there are many not just promoting but also selling, without paying a thing.


I understand your point, but I don't think it's quite as gray as you make it out to be.

I'm a competitor posting about a competition that's placed at a shop.

I also post flyers for competitions held in the middle of the friggin' woods and fairgrounds. 

If you want to talk Vendor rules, then you need to talk to Ant. Like I implied before, let's not lose the forest for the trees. My beef regarding his vendor status is about nil compared to my other concerns. If we're going to turn everything I've said on it's head and focus on one statement I made rather than discussing the true issue for the vast majority of folks, then you can discuss that with those people who have that particular bone to pick. I'd rather save discussion for how Jon could avoid use of striking a divide in the audio community by calling himself the 'best', then getting defensive when people get up in arms over it with no meter to gauge his 'bestness' (I made up a word, ha!).


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> 'bestness' (I made up a word, ha!).


Nice! I may have to use that sometime...lol :laugh::laugh:


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

jon w. said:


> dear bikinpunk,
> 
> i would LOVE to become a vendor. but as a potential vendor, i would expect SERVICE and SUPPORT. i've already been burned by another forum, so i'm reluctant to make the same mistake twice. it all depends on you, the moderators, and the members of this forum. if moderators would uphold the rules of the forum regarding etiquette and professionalism, i may consider it. the members also need to do their part - all i ask for is courtesy and professionalism. at the very least, i would expect the folks who don't appreciate my work to remain quiet. i'm not out to diminish the work of others, as some may think. i'd simply like to promote my design, fabrication, and tuning skills, which i believe are among the finest available.
> 
> jon



Jon, Jon, Jon.
So you're looking for special treatment......again?
Just like the last forum you left?
BTW, thanks for the info BigAl. :thumbsup:
Not going to happen.
We are not your mommy.
You make a mess; then you have to deal with it.
I am sure that I speak for the mod team when I say everyone, including vendors, get the same even handed support.
The question you have to answer is are you going to step up and pay the vendor fee just like Jerry (Niebur3) and many, many others do, or are you going to continue to skirt around the rules?
Do it long enough and somebody will make the decision for you.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

jon w. said:


> dear bikinpunk,
> 
> i would LOVE to become a vendor. but as a potential vendor, i would expect SERVICE and SUPPORT. i've already been burned by another forum, so i'm reluctant to make the same mistake twice. it all depends on you, the moderators, and the members of this forum. if moderators would uphold the rules of the forum regarding etiquette and professionalism, i may consider it. the members also need to do their part - all i ask for is courtesy and professionalism. at the very least, i would expect the folks who don't appreciate my work to remain quiet. i'm not out to diminish the work of others, as some may think. i'd simply like to promote my design, fabrication, and tuning skills, which i believe are among the finest available.
> 
> jon



Jon,
talk to Ant about it, then. Seriously, dude, I _really _don't have a huge issue here. Personally, if I owned the site I wouldn't charge anyone a dime but that's not the reality and by no means is that a slight at the site owner. That's just how it is. If I had time to run a separate forum like this I would but I don't so I contribute here. 

I'd rather have discussion with you regarding how you feel about your marketing terms which you use to purposely separate yourself from the community you say you want to bring together. (I do understand the use of it, but let's be real; it is a marketing term to gain more attention to your vehicle and the services you provide). I'm being as honest and heartfelt as I possibly can be at this point.


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



cajunner said:


> I'm glad you cleared that up for me and didn't get all bent out of shape about it.
> 
> I can see where you try to keep an even keel and it's just these things that work against you when you call out others for not paying for vending type activities.
> 
> ...



We're working on that.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



cajunner said:


> I'm glad you cleared that up for me and didn't get all bent out of shape about it.
> 
> I can see where you try to keep an even keel and it's just these things that work against you when you call out others for not paying for vending type activities.
> 
> ...



See my post to Jon above. My personal concern over vendor status is pretty much nonexistent. Honestly. I just mentioned it regarding Jon because it is true. And there have been others who have been held to the same degree that I didn't necessarily feel fit. But, again, this is Ant's site and is a source of income. I can't fault him and I'm not about to start trying to overthrow the government because of it. It's just something I don't personally care for. Since everyone still is entitled to opinion, in Jon's case, this is one area where I'm more for him being a vendor because he comes here to promote his van which anyone with a brain understands is a means of marketing his services. To me it's no different than if I have a roofing company with roofing stickers on it and I host roofing seminars once a month at Home Depot free of charge. How much business does that generate? is the bus a tax writeoff? that would be the ultimate... lol. 

I know I sound like I care about vendor status. I really don't have a bone to pick. If my opinion is asked, the above is what I reply. But that pails in comparison to my oft-stated objection.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Let me paint this picture, because this is seriously how I see these conversations going:


Jon: "I'm the best. Come see my Bus. It's the best!"

Others: "I'm sure it sounds awesome, but how can you say it's the best with no metric to back it up?"

Jon: "You guys are rude and just care about competitions. I just want to make everyone in the community happy."

Others: "That's cool, but you're the one telling everyone else that your car is better than theirs by calling it the best. How are we supposed to feel with a backhanded comment like that and how is that not in and of itself a comparison?"

Jon: "......."





Every time I am around a conversation about this Bus (and it comes up occasionally at shows/meets) this is the same thing those people are complaining about. Those folks don't care about who is a vendor. They care about how Jon is singling his car out as the best in the hobby with no real way to gauge it and no understanding that others who have spent more time and effort in design may disagree with it. Outside of this, I have no real gripes with Jon.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



cajunner said:


> I don't know if it's better or worse, to make this place more professional and less amateur hour. The more we separate into buyers and sellers here, the more we distance ourselves from each other. I know it's tempting to want to introduce some fair rules and stop some free-loader activities, but everybody's got a lazy uncle and they're still family...
> 
> some of the charm is that it's a community and not just a bunch of people making classified ads, I think that's what brings me around more often than not, and if we have to divide the population between the true hobbyist and the business people so much because one set of money makers is having their rights infringed on by another set of money makers, it's like putting on I Love Lucy and Jim Cramer starts yelling Mad Money at you, it loses the vibe.


That's why there's different levels of vendor fees.
Look, Jon W. is and always will be P.T. Barnum and he doesn't like it when he gets called on it......bottom line.

Should he be a vendor?
IMO....yes.

Does he have the right to ask us mods to delete and deter all criticism if he becomes a vendor?
An emphatic no! (no opinion needed here)
Once again, we're not his mommy.

Does he need to back up is "Best Car Audio Ever" claim?
IMO....absofrickin'lutely! (since were making up words)


There are others but that will suffice for now.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



cajunner said:


> I get it, and Jon's "best" self-classification is largely the reason for people being bent out of shape in the first place, but it's marketing and as long as he doesn't have a yardstick, he can use the "best" moniker without being dishonest. Should he place himself in competition and lose, the bus is no longer able to provide the same marketing strategy, and that strategy is not illegal, or immoral, or unethical.


which, in and of itself is understandable. but it's the way he comes back at people who get upset over his use of the word and calls us/them disrespectful and only caring about comparison. It's the irony of the whole use of the word "best" here that drives me up a wall. If you're going to use the word, don't expect that everyone will be happy. And don't expect people not to take exception to it. And especially don't cry foul when that happens.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



bikinpunk said:


> which, in and of itself is understandable. but it's the way he comes back at people who get upset over his use of the word and calls us/them disrespectful and only caring about comparison. * It's the irony of the whole use of the word "best" here that drives me up a wall*. If you're going to use the word, don't expect that everyone will be happy. And don't expect people to take exception to it. And especially don't cry foul when that happens.


Bingo!
He hasn't earned it, and as long as he continues to declare it, it will only ring hollow to those that know better.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



cajunner said:


> I think it IS his right to ask for special consideration, but it's not his CALL.
> 
> I think vendor status is a protected group.
> 
> ...


I don't accept the premise.
No one has the right to insist for special treatment that puts them above all others; whether they pay or don't. 
As for the vendor special treatment you allude to, you're going to have to pm me an example of this before I can accept your assertion. 
I just haven't seen it.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Anyone else notice that Jon W. keeps lurking in here (look below) but is letting others do the heavy lifting for him?
Interesting isn't it.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



bikinpunk said:


> which, in and of itself is understandable. but it's the way he comes back at people who get upset over his use of the word and calls us/them disrespectful and only caring about comparison. It's the irony of the whole use of the word "best" here that drives me up a wall. If you're going to use the word, don't expect that everyone will be happy. And don't expect people not to take exception to it. And especially don't cry foul when that happens.


I'm the best at ****ing my wife (at least I hope I am....lol)

In all seriousness, me and Bret have Pm'd about the Vendor thing ever since I was required to pay or be banned. I still don't like be threatened and then watching so many do much more blatant advertising with seemingly no consequence. 

And like I said before, it doesn't seem that all the mods are "in the know" about what constitutes a "vendor" and seem to enforce it unfairly and at their choosing. Since I paid, I think I have the right to ***** about those who haven't.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



cajunner said:


> well, I wasn't aware of all that.
> 
> if he's being disrespectful because people have taken exception to the unqualified use of the word "best" then I can see where he'll be judged by that before anyone tries to deal with the disrespectful content aimed at him.
> 
> ...


but does it matter when he says he wants to bring the community together, yet still uses the term which he knows causes a divide between himself and others?

hey, maybe he's a genius after all. because he's brought a lot of people together who loathe hearing about this bus. lol.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



Niebur3 said:


> I'm the best at ****ing my wife (at least I hope I am....lol)
> 
> In all seriousness, me and Bret have Pm'd about the Vendor thing ever since I was required to pay or be banned. I still don't like be threatened and then watching so many do much more blatant advertising with seemingly no consequence.
> 
> And like I said before, it doesn't seem that all the mods are "in the know" about what constitutes a "vendor" and seem to enforce it unfairly and at their choosing. Since I paid, I think I have the right to ***** about those who haven't.


the secret is... ultimately we're just mods. we don't get paid for it. we just get special powers like being able to delete our posts or closing our for sale threads quickly. it's kind of cool. oh, and now and again, I'll edit cajunner's posts to say "I'm a total star wars nerd" just to mess with him. but he hasn't caught on yet.  

overall, I don't know what constitutes a vendor. most of the time if we see something that looks like it may, it'll be brought up to other mods and Ant and Ant usually makes the final call. frankly, I don't even notice it unless someone else points it out.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



Niebur3 said:


> I'm the best at ****ing my wife (at least I hope I am....lol)
> 
> In all seriousness, me and Bret have Pm'd about the Vendor thing ever since I was required to pay or be banned. I still don't like be threatened and then watching so many do much more blatant advertising with seemingly no consequence.
> 
> And like I said before, it doesn't seem that all the mods are "in the know" about what constitutes a "vendor" and seem to enforce it unfairly and at their choosing. Since I paid, I think I have the right to ***** about those who haven't.


Sometimes our hands are tied and other times there's a ruling made.
But all of the time, it's handled by honorable men making fair decisions behind the scenes.

And Jerry, as you already now, you can pm me anytime.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

I appreciate that Bret and Erin. I feel lately like we are constantly in a war of wards and rules and I'd rather get back to talking about car audio....the one thing we all have in common.

Man, I never thought I'd wish for the days back when we were just arguing about....I mean, discussing speakers and speaker tests...lol!


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

And FWIW, maybe Jon is a genius, I mean, we have been talking about his van non-stop for 2+ days AND many want to go hear it now so "they can be the judge". It's true what they say, good marketing or bad marketing is STILL marketing !

For that matter, I have the "best" car audio shop in the country....care to discuss???


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

jon w. said:


> dear bikinpunk,
> 
> i would LOVE to become a vendor. but as a potential vendor, *i would expect* SERVICE and *SUPPORT*. i've already been burned by another forum, so i'm reluctant to make the same mistake twice. it all depends on you, the moderators, and the members of this forum. if moderators would uphold the rules of the forum regarding etiquette and professionalism, i may consider it. the members also need to do their part - all i ask for is courtesy and professionalism. at the very least, i would expect the folks who don't appreciate my work to remain quiet. i'm not out to diminish the work of others, as some may think. i'd simply like to promote my design, fabrication, and tuning skills, which i believe are among the finest available.
> 
> jon


In my short time here I think the this is the part that irks me the most. You don't contribute anything useful. YOU don't provide any SUPPORT. You are clearly very experienced but do not share unless it is business related.

People would have a bit more respectful if you were an active MEMBER. You post at random only for promotion.

There's paying vendors here who contribute frequently. That's what DIYMA is about.



Niebur3 said:


> And FWIW, maybe Jon is a genius, I mean, we have been talking about his van non-stop for 2+ days AND many want to go hear it now so "they can be the judge". It's true what they say, good marketing or bad marketing is STILL marketing !
> 
> For that matter, I have the "best" car audio shop in the country....care to discuss???


Well... it would have to be judged of course.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

I have the highest scoring car in the thirty plus years of organized car audio competition (996.5 points): Welcome to the Buwalda Hybrids International Website - Home of the Triple Threat!. And that'll be the last time you hear me say that, because no one likes glutinous, self-glorification here, or anywhere. 

I have been quiet until now; it disgusts me to read about how this is the best car audio system in the world. Really? REALLY? Vendor status or not, it's about having tact and knowing your place, and knowing when you've said too much. I tuned out years ago hearing this propaganda, as have many folks here and elsewhere. You earn the title of 'best' by beating the best. Pretty simple, really.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

^^^So, Jon has boasted "best sounding", does that mean he has to score more than 996.5 (which I'm assuming more than 1/2 are install points) or just best the sound quality score portion (which is would be????)?


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Maybe he'd just need to compete it? Having never heard the 'bus', I can't comment, but I am reasonably certain there are a minimum of twenty cars on the USA circuit that could compete toe to toe with his offering.


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

Scott Buwalda said:


> Maybe he'd just need to compete it? Having never heard the 'bus', I can't comment, but I am reasonably certain there are a minimum of twenty cars on the USA circuit that could compete toe to toe with his offering.


I agree. It's easy to claim something but to actually step up and prove those claims is another story. 

There are alot of idiots out there on the Internet and in media/marketing publications. People in a magazine saying something is the best means nothing.

Step up and show us what you've got. 



Posted from my Samsung Galaxy S III 32gb via tapatalk 2.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

BTW, before the question comes up, not sure why I don't have "approved vendor" under my name. Been one for a few years now, and just re-upped last week, according to my $350.00 PayPal automatic renewal...


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Scott Buwalda said:


> I have the highest scoring car in the thirty plus years of organized car audio competition (996.5 points): Welcome to the Buwalda Hybrids International Website - Home of the Triple Threat!. And that'll be the last time you hear me say that, because *no one likes glutinous, self-glorification here, or anywhere*.
> 
> I have been quiet until now; it disgusts me to read about how this is the best car audio system in the world. Really? REALLY? Vendor status or not, it's about having tact and knowing your place, and knowing when you've said too much. I tuned out years ago hearing this propaganda, as have many folks here and elsewhere. You earn the title of 'best' by beating the best. Pretty simple, really.


Here, here.

I think you and I are pretty much in agreeance here.

Though I think there are some cars that may give you a run for your money, I'd be much more understanding of you using that term "best" as a marketing tool to help further your cause because you have the chops to back it up. Though, I am glad we still both agree judging by what you've said (bolded).


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

My car stereo sound better than your car stereo....so there!!!! 

Man we sound like a bunch of teenage girls


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

*Re: The Magic Bus Will be Exhibiting at T.H.E. Show Newport, May 31 - June 2!*



cajunner said:


> couple of points here, seem a little off-kilter.
> 
> you started off with ANT's Klippel, then gave it back, got one for yourself and started testing drivers.
> 
> ...


How was getting the Klippel self-promotion, if he was asked, and/ or volunteer to conduct tests?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Very interesting thread here, I like getting to see DIYMA politics from a different perspective. 

And as for Jon I have one question for you guys:

Do you think Jon honestly believes he has the BEST sounding stereo? 
That would be the difference between simple false advertising and outright arrogance. 

Well? Do you Jon? Do you 100% truly believe the magic bus has the best stereo in the world?


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

^^^I have to say, I read through his post about "The Show" and nowhere does *Jon himself* state it is the best sounding car stereo in the world. He states:

"Robert Harley, Editor-in-Chief of the abso!ute sound® magazine, heard the newly completed Magic Bus at T.H.E. Show Newport Beach (June 2011) and wrote in his show highlights,

Jon Whitledge showed the latest incarnation of his ‘"Magic Bus", a van that houses what I called "The world’s best car stereo" when I heard it five years ago. Since then, Whitledge has taken the system to an entirely new level of performance. The design, construction, passion, and dedication that went into the Magic Bus are unprecedented, and it showed in the sound quality. The system had effortless dynamics, very high resolution of low-level detail, and tremendous timbral fidelity, throwing a soundstage that rivaled that of a well-set-up home system."

SO, what he stated is nothing that can be disputed as far as I can tell, unless you are saying he is lying about being on the cover of that magazine and that Robert Harley didn't write that about him. Maybe your issue with this is misplaced and you all should be calling Robert Harley.

I mean, Motor Trend says "the car of the year is______" and that shows up in advertising for the next year. I don't see people crying foul with that.


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

cars, owners of cars, brands of speakers in cars. I say all comps should be done with blind folds. cars are placed in a huge warehouse judges are blindfolded and walked into the warehouse not knowing who's competing. then sat in the car and the testing begins. judge takes notes and scores are then calculated.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

These kinds of claims are everywhere. "Hybrid Audio Technologies is a strong, viable company that makes the world's finest and best-sounding car audio loudspeakers." Along with this: "We no longer are a dealer of specialty brands for other companies, for they are now our competitors, and frankly, the product we manufacture eclipses the performance of the brands we used to sell and distribute." I didn't realize HAT made the best and the best sounding speakers in the world. Now I know. 

I went on the Hybrid site out of curiosity and to look at some widebanders and didn't expect to find the same sort of claims that Jon is getting bashed for. Sure, this is their own site, not DIYMA but come on. 

Is it ok to say a product is the best but not the system as a whole? I could care less, I normally shrug these types of product claims off but stumbling on it by accident when trying to find some widebanders with this thread going I figured I would bring it up. Ill probably regret it lol. 

If people have a problem with Jon claiming he has the best sounding vehicle ever (did Jon actually say that or did the rags say that?), I can sort of understand even though it doesn't bother me as I don't compete. That's fine. What I have a problem with is the mob mentality and the instant insults, some of which are personal. I'm sure Jon wants to generate business and maybe he should become a vendor but I also see a guy who is extremely passionate about this hobby and his creation and is eager to show it off just to show it off. Sure magazine reviews aren't the end all to validating your sound quality vehicle but how many of our systems do you think an audio mag would call the best ever? 

Again, does anyone think the Bus would be judged fairly? In addition, has anyone looked at Jon's resume from when he did compete in a lesser vehicle? He did about as good as you could possibly do. He judged comps. He's not some uneducated nut job making these claims. I would love to see him compete with the Bus but I don't think that was the intention. 

I would be willing to bet if Jon got involved in a random technical thread with no reference to his business or the Bus he would still get bashed. I can see how Jons claims might bother Scott and some of the other top competitors but why does it bother the average nobody do badly? It's the senseless bashing and attacks and jumping on the bandwagon that bother me so badly. Most of the people bashing Jon are the same people who love to fight in the off topic section, its just their personality. I would have nothing to say if it were just the top competitors, the guys who have been judged to have the best sounding cars in the world complaining. I just think a lot of people use it as an opportunity to talk ****. 

Maybe it would be helpful for Jon to take a few minutes and get involved and help out in the technical section once in a while to see what happens.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

BuickGN said:


> (did Jon actually say that or did the rags say that?)



I addressed this in one of my earlier posts. Regardless if it was bestowed upon him by a mag, he perpetuates it by using it as a marketing tool. So, he's no less guilty of the 'crime' (strong word, I know) than if he had just called it that himself. That said, maybe we should all blast the authors who gave him this title. I seriously wonder what their experience with car audio is. Have they listened to any of the other top-named car audio guys? That's an issue here as well but I haven't really delved in to it.





BuickGN said:


> I would be willing to bet if Jon got involved in a random technical thread with no reference to his business or the Bus he would still get bashed.



Not by me and not by anyone I know well enough to speak for. If Jon would post and contribute without tooting his own horn and diong without the attitude that we're beneath him then he wouldn't get dumped on at all. So, I'll take that bet. *if I'm wrong, I'll delete all evidence and claim I was right. JUST KIDDING (for those who can't take a joke)*


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> I addressed this in one of my earlier posts. Regardless if it was bestowed upon him by a mag, he uses it to perpetuate it. So, he's no less guilty of the 'crime' (strong word, I know) than if he had just called it that himself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


$5 PayPal bet should make it more interesting.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

done.


do we get to have a bet for the posts actually occurring? because I'd be in for that as well.


----------



## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

It depends on if he posted while speaking in third-person.


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> I addressed this in one of my earlier posts. Regardless if it was bestowed upon him by a mag, he perpetuates it by using it as a marketing tool. So, he's no less guilty of the 'crime' (strong word, I know) than if he had just called it that himself. That said, maybe we should all blast the authors who gave him this title. I seriously wonder what their experience with car audio is. Have they listened to any of the other top-named car audio guys? That's an issue here as well but I haven't really delved in to it.


A question for you Erin. Do you blame him? I mean, if you won an award in your profession..."best (whatever it is you exactly do)", wouldn't you use that on your resume to get your next job, even though "best" is very subjective and there may/may not be some better at your job?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> A question for you Erin. Do you blame him? I mean, if you won an award in your profession..."best (whatever it is you exactly do)", wouldn't you use that on your resume to get your next job, even though "best" is very subjective and there may/may not be some better at your job?


let's keep it apples to apples then. If a home audio magazine called me the 'best' in car audio, I wouldn't tout myself as the best. If I won multiple championships over the years .... nope. I still wouldn't. It's all about being humble to me. I may come off as a d-bag now and again because it's the internet and it's words typed. But there's one thing that I always strive to maintain in person and on the forums and that's a sense of humility. You never know what else is out there. I hear about all sorts of other vehicles through my friends in the hobby all over the country. Enough to know that even if I were in that position, there would be enough doubt for me to not tout myself as such. 

Whether you think I'm being honest is up to you to decide. I think you and I have talked enough about this matter enough for you to believe me.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

^LIAR!!!!!!!!




















J/K


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

You can't even spell! LOL!


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> You can't even spell! LOL!


I ninja fixed my typo. I can spell.....really I can 



bikinpunk said:


> Edit: I can't spell.


Oh, and neither can you!!!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

dangit!






well played, Jerry. well played...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Scott Buwalda said:


> I have the highest scoring car in the thirty plus years of organized car audio competition (996.5 points): Welcome to the Buwalda Hybrids International Website - Home of the Triple Threat!. And that'll be the last time you hear me say that, because no one likes glutinous, self-glorification here, or anywhere.
> 
> I have been quiet until now; it disgusts me to read about how this is the best car audio system in the world. Really? REALLY? Vendor status or not, it's about having tact and knowing your place, and knowing when you've said too much. I tuned out years ago hearing this propaganda, as have many folks here and elsewhere. You earn the title of 'best' by beating the best. Pretty simple, really.


ding ding ding!!


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

BuickGN said:


> These kinds of claims are everywhere. "Hybrid Audio Technologies is a strong, viable company that makes the world's finest and best-sounding car audio loudspeakers." Along with this: "We no longer are a dealer of specialty brands for other companies, for they are now our competitors, and frankly, the product we manufacture eclipses the performance of the brands we used to sell and distribute." I didn't realize HAT made the best and the best sounding speakers in the world. Now I know.
> 
> I went on the Hybrid site out of curiosity and to look at some widebanders and didn't expect to find the same sort of claims that Jon is getting bashed for. Sure, this is their own site, not DIYMA but come on.
> 
> ...






BuickGN said:


> $5 PayPal bet should make it more interesting.






Done!
Thanks for the $5.00.
I'll pm you my paypal address. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...stry-legends-discuss-sq-mobile-audio-biz.html


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

jon w. said:


> i'd simply like to promote my design, fabrication, and tuning skills, which i believe are among the finest available.
> 
> jon


And thread/


----------



## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Done!
> Thanks for the $5.00.
> I'll pm you my paypal address.
> 
> ...


I hate you. .


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

slade1274 said:


> Would you feel differently if he were a paying sponsor/member/vendor?


Probably.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

jon w. said:


> quality sound,
> 
> you should know better. "instead of contributing in ANY way" - really? have you seen the video entitled, "industry legends discuss sq mobile audio"? making that took hundreds of miles of driving, days of pre-event set-up and validation, and days of audio/video editing. it featured an impressive panel of industry legends. it was because i strongly believe in changing our industry and helping Buzzman, a truly professional supporter of mobile audio.
> 
> ...


That's not contributing. It's all centered around you and what you're doing. When was the last time you popped into the "help me design my system" forum and helped a member out. Hell, when was the last time you helped ANYONE on the forum. I don't know that I've EVER seen a post from you that wasn't self-serving. 

That's what I'm talking about.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Scott Buwalda said:


> Maybe he'd just need to compete it? Having never heard the 'bus', I can't comment, but I am reasonably certain there are a minimum of twenty cars on the USA circuit that could compete toe to toe with his offering.


Agreed.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Niebur3 said:


> ^^^I have to say, I read through his post about "The Show" and nowhere does *Jon himself* state it is the best sounding car stereo in the world. He states:
> 
> "Robert Harley, Editor-in-Chief of the abso!ute sound® magazine, heard the newly completed Magic Bus at T.H.E. Show Newport Beach (June 2011) and wrote in his show highlights,
> 
> ...


Motor Trend tests the cars in a particular segment before the bestow that title though.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

BuickGN said:


> These kinds of claims are everywhere. "Hybrid Audio Technologies is a strong, viable company that makes the world's finest and best-sounding car audio loudspeakers." Along with this: "We no longer are a dealer of specialty brands for other companies, for they are now our competitors, and frankly, the product we manufacture eclipses the performance of the brands we used to sell and distribute." I didn't realize HAT made the best and the best sounding speakers in the world. Now I know.
> 
> I went on the Hybrid site out of curiosity and to look at some widebanders and didn't expect to find the same sort of claims that Jon is getting bashed for. Sure, this is their own site, not DIYMA but come on.
> 
> ...


First, it's "couldn't care less"

Second, HAT has ha MANY cars using their drivers win at the national level for different sanctioning bodies so they've earned the right to use that in their marketing.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

cajunner said:


> anyone needing endorsement can paypal me 25.00 and I'll say your car is the best in the world.
> 
> PM for details/contractual obligations.


Can I still use the endorsement after I get my ass handed to me at Pate's show in June?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> anyone needing endorsement can paypal me 25.00 and I'll say your car is the best in the world.
> 
> PM for details/contractual obligations.


That may be a way better bargain for some than others.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

quality_sound said:


> First, it's "couldn't care less"
> 
> Second, HAT has ha MANY cars using their drivers win at the national level for different sanctioning bodies so they've earned the right to use that in their marketing.


Ok *******. I typed that from my iPhone, I'm not too concerned with grammar when it takes so long to type in the first place and takes even longer to correct mistakes. If you're going to correct someone, you should check your own work. It's "had", not "ha" and you should use periods on the ends of your sentences for example your first sentence. 

So the speakers are the reason they have won so many championships? I guess tuning and install don't matter? In the double blind subjective tests these speakers have placed middle of the pack. I believe Scott when he said the full range was at a disadvantage in a midrange shootout but the point is they have not been proven to be the best just as Jon's vehicle has not competed. You also have the big manufacturers disguising speakers from other manufacturers as thier own or a "prototype" of a future speaker they might make in their comp vehicles. Two very big competitors have slipped up, admitting to using some Dynaudio gear, specifically the Esotar 110 tweeter in their comp cars. One of these guys flat out told me this on the phone and then started back tracking. I have no idea what Scott runs and I don't care and this is no slight towards Scott. 

So does winning comps give you the right to say your speakers are the best, nope. What happens when some noob comes in here and asks what the "best" speakers are? We usually say install and tuning and there's no "best", there's only personal preference. 

I'm willing to bet Scott could make any decent set of speakers work well in competition but that's not the point. The point is if you're going to get upset at Jon claiming, well actually the mags claiming he has the best automotive setup in the world you should get really mad when a manufacturer makes the same claim with no tests or judging to back it up. Personally, neither of these guys' claims bothers me, just making sure everything is fair.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

quality_sound said:


> Motor Trend tests the cars in a particular segment before the bestow that title though.


They run objective tests but the subjective part is a huge part of the score. I've seen many times the better performing car and the better value not get the title because they preferred the dashboard or floormats of another car lol. The huge subjective part is where a little "influence" from manufactures can creep in and change the outcome despite objective testing. It's an out, a way to choose a lesser car and make it seem ok. 

One reason I like the UK Top Gear so much is there's no automotive advertising and look at how brutally honest they are about any car's shortcomings. By contrast most other car shows seem like a 30 minute commercial for the manufacturer.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

The bus is about the time, money and one persons passion and effort. It's safe to say that sonic benefits from equipment, install and size of space would all have been maxed out. There is one other X factor though and that is tuning skills. 

Someone with say 5K in equipment and a homespun but solid install and great tuning skills could win against the bus. No way can a million dollars in equipment come in second to the 5K. One way to prevent it is to ensure that the face off never happens. 

Till then the claim of 'best' is just marketing hype. No different from manufacturers claiming lowest THD for the 'best' amp.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I take it as a compliment to be mentioned with the likes of DS-21 and MarkZ.

Like Erin, I have no issue other than constantly saying this thing is the best in the world...and never showing up to anything other than CES where other great cars are at. That and never posting anything on here other than to promote yourself and business services- building and tuning (for a lot of cash-ola).

Help people, get involved, share some knowledge. I mean we have several smart people here- Andy, Manville, Eric Stevens, Scott, etc who get in the trenches and educate folks.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

BuickGN said:


> Ok *******. I typed that from my iPhone, I'm not too concerned with grammar when it takes so long to type in the first place and takes even longer to correct mistakes. If you're going to correct someone, you should check your own work. It's "had", not "ha" and you should use periods on the ends of your sentences for example your first sentence.
> 
> So the speakers are the reason they have won so many championships? I guess tuning and install don't matter? In the double blind subjective tests these speakers have placed middle of the pack. I believe Scott when he said the full range was at a disadvantage in a midrange shootout but the point is they have not been proven to be the best just as Jon's vehicle has not competed. You also have the big manufacturers disguising speakers from other manufacturers as thier own or a "prototype" of a future speaker they might make in their comp vehicles. Two very big competitors have slipped up, admitting to using some Dynaudio gear, specifically the Esotar 110 tweeter in their comp cars. One of these guys flat out told me this on the phone and then started back tracking. I have no idea what Scott runs and I don't care and this is no slight towards Scott.
> 
> ...


Please...you typed it exactly as you meant it. You've said it exactly like that many times, so stop. 

Who said nothing but the speakers mattered? I know I didn't even hint at that. Look at the amp manufacturers that make the same claim after cars using them win at finals. Jesus, even cable makers do it. 

The point, however, is that he willingly accepted that undeserved accolade and uses it for marketing but refuses to compete to even attempt to back it up. I don't accept the word of home audio snobs with bone stock car systems as valid opinion. You shouldn't either. It's disingenuine. 

I'm also not saying that anyone that claims their gear is the best really makes the best gear. I'm saying that at least their claims have SOME credibility of they're used in cars that win.

Yes, the judging isn't perfect, but there is at least a process for car of the year. And don't think Top Gear is not biased as well. They have repeatedly said the M3 is the "perfect car" yet none of the presenters owns one. They CONSTANTLY rip the Vette which, by all accounts, performs at supercar levels for a fraction of the cost, because its American and "Americans don't know how to build great cars" but they're unbiased?? Please... I love the show but they definitely have their biases.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

I like the suggestion of blindfolding the judges. Would help with a lot of bias. However, what judge wouldn't know they were getting into mark's NASCAR (having climbed into it myself) or Chris pates civic (where is the other seat)????lol.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

quality_sound said:


> Please...you typed it exactly as you meant it. You've said it exactly like that many times, so stop.
> 
> Who said nothing but the speakers mattered? I know I didn't even hint at that. Look at the amp manufacturers that make the same claim after cars using them win at finals. Jesus, even cable makers do it.
> 
> ...


Obviously you haven't seen the ZR1 test or the Festiva or noticed Jeremy owns a Ford GT. Thats off the top of my head, I'm sure there are many more examples. 

Don't worry about my spelling or I'm going to start worrying about yours which is way worse. Why do people resort to spelling and grammar when they have no argument? 

You don't know those home audio guys have stock audio in their cars, don't base your argument on assumptions. 

I don't care about Jon's claims but if you're so worried it you should police everyone equally which we both know will never happen, it's not in your nature. Scott's website says HAT produces the best speakers. Show me the test that proves this. Jon's Bus has never been proven average but take a look at the HAT entries in the blind listening tests. Jon got praise from some home audio guys as a feature in a magazine. Scott's praise came from himself. Theres nothing wrong with that but don't knock Jon for accepting praise from another party. Maybe you should bash Scott and Jon equally or not at all.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Well, technically Scott's praise didn't come from himself...he highest scoring car title came from a group of judges from a sanctioning body. Well, I don't know if you can call it a title...but it's hard to argue with numbers

The difference between the two is that everytime Scott comes on here, he doesn't start a post in 3rd person promoting an event that he will be at with the "world's best" of anything. John does...and that is pretty much ALL that he has done since joining the forum.


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

Jeremy ownED a Ford GT...

UK: Jeremy Clarkson's Ford GT - The end of a dream.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

He could be the yin to Steve Mead's yang!


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> Well, technically Scott's praise didn't come from himself...he highest scoring car title came from a group of judges from a sanctioning body. Well, I don't know if you can call it a title...but it's hard to argue with numbers
> 
> The difference between the two is that everytime Scott comes on here, he doesn't start a post in 3rd person promoting an event that he will be at with the "world's best" of anything. John does...and that is pretty much ALL that he has done since joining the forum.


I thought the third person stuff was cool. Back around '99-01 when the Internet forums were new and you could say and do anything including personal threats I trolled turbobuick.com, the Camaro board, LS1, and corvette forums as Kenny Duttweiler and only spoke about myself in the 3rd person because it seemed to piss people off more. It was so much fun selling people's cars and calling out anyone and everyone and doing so with an amazing amount of arrogance but the 3rd person stuff worked the best. I was of course intentionally trying to piss people off but the mods let me stay because people were checking the board just to see what kind of havoc was created the night before. Anyway, the point being the 3rd person stuff was for comedy and/or to piss people off but never serious. I can't remember noticing Jon's 3rd party talk much, I guess ill have to pay more attention. Maybe its a way of separating himself from us?


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

If you spoke in 3rd party _and_ bold text, that would be bad-assed


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## D-Bass (Apr 27, 2012)

As a completely unbiased opinion...ok...
first, let me verify my attributes... I have never personally heard the Magic Bus, nor any of the other top SQ vehicles in the country. BUT
I can account on behalf of the Magic Bus IN FACT actually being the best sounding vehicle in the world.
According to the U.S. Congressional Acts of the year 1451: _All information to be posted on the interweb may and must be provided of a truthful nature, and any waining to be intercepted and shall not be posted on the afore mentioned interweb._

and for those who doubt, Let me site the late Jean Belanjean's doctoral thesis from 1492, entitled " 
publicité mensongère"
loosely translated...
Article 8, Section 7a states: _Any Naysayer of the factual information provided upon the interwebs shall be grouped within the societal pocket refered to as the "Newbeau". In future centuries they may be mentioned as "noobies" or "Newbs" to identify their inline status._


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## D-Bass (Apr 27, 2012)

Indoctrinate that!


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## Sulley (Dec 8, 2008)

^wa?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

D-Bass said:


> As a completely unbiased opinion...ok...
> first, let me verify my attributes... I have never personally heard the Magic Bus, nor any of the other top SQ vehicles in the country. BUT
> I can account on behalf of the Magic Bus IN FACT actually being the best sounding vehicle in the world.
> According to the U.S. Congressional Acts of the year 1451: _All information to be posted on the interweb may and must be provided of a truthful nature, and any waining to be intercepted and shall not be posted on the afore mentioned interweb._
> ...


You win. Good game everybody. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## thomasluke (Jun 10, 2011)

really said:


> is this Jon guy for real ?


Naw. He's just kidding. There isn't even a bus. Just a van.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

thomasluke said:


> Naw. He's just kidding. There isn't even a bus. Just a van.


Its a short bus, that's why its the "magic" bus

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## cAsE sEnSiTiVe (Jun 24, 2008)

thomasluke said:


> Naw. He's just kidding. There isn't even a bus. Just a van.


Oh I beg to differ...


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Lol!
Classic!


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

That's the fastest bus in the world! No, I will not run it down the drag strip to prove it. 



Posted from my Samsung Galaxy S III 32gb via tapatalk 2.


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## cAsE sEnSiTiVe (Jun 24, 2008)

BowDown said:


> That's the fastest bus in the world! No, I will not run it down the drag strip to prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> Posted from my Samsung Galaxy S III 32gb via tapatalk 2.



With lightning fast transients as well!


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

Wow, what a f____ked up thread this is. The fact that you Mods even labeled it “The Magic Bus discussion *dump*” (emphasis added) says a lot. Whether you intended to or not, you guys are facilitating this ********. The lack of respect for Jon, and the venom spewed his way by people who don’t know him or have never met him, is appalling and offensive. 

OK, some of you guys have gripes with him about what you view to be inappropriate “self-promotion.” But do you have to communicate your thoughts this way? The man spent a lot of his own time and money to build The Magic Bus, an accomplishment about which he is most proud. Why do you want to deny him that? A lot of very well respected people with great ears have heaped accolades on The Bus. So Jon gets his ass liposuctioned by you guys for simply repeating what others have said about his achievement. He has every right to repeat those remarks. Before you start throwing stones, look in the mirror and ask yourself how many times you have repeated something positive someone said about your ride. 

OK, the Bus hasn’t been in a sanctioned competition and “judged.” Big F’ing deal. It has been “judged” by those who have listened to it, and the opinions vary. Just like with ANY car, including the vaunted vehicles often mentioned as being among the best in SQ circles. I have heard from more than a few people I respect that they would never choose to listen every day to music in many cars that win competitions because they just don’t like the sound. Shoots, one of them is a new Mod on here and he has made no bones about his views on that. Go listen to the Bus for yourself when the opportunity arises, or is presented ( as Jon tried to do in his original post and often does, and reach *your **own *conclusions. 

OK, the accolades that Jon repeats come from home audio journalists, and some of you ask with a tone of seriousness what they know about car audio.  Really?! Such a question shows your ignorance about what we are trying (or should be trying) to achieve in this hobby. If you aren’t trying to get the sound in your car to emulate that of the finest home audio systems in a home environment then you don’t know what the F___K you are doing. If you really want to have these journalists question their conclusions about The Magic Bus, then bring your ride to the same events in which Jon participates and get Robert Harley and Steve McCormack and whoever else has written about the Bus to listen and compare. And if they then proclaim your ride to have the best sound in a car they have ever heard, I want to see if you will keep that proclamation quiet and not announce it to everyone within earshot or access to the Internet. 

As you can tell, I am really pissed. Why do so many of you take pride in, and so obviously enjoy, disparaging another person’s work and his character. Is it just jealousy, or you just sad, bitter souls? Move on already and devote your energies to something positive. Instead of berating Jon about how he doesn’t post enough on the forum and doesn’t get involved in threads where he offers advice, how about saying instead: “Jon, you have obviously learned a lot from your work on the Bus, and rather than referring people to your site to read about what you did, how about becoming a more regular contributor to the forum by chiming in on threads where your insight might help someone else?” That is so obviously a much better approach, but it eludes you guys who just like to get engaged in verbal battles on this forum that lead nowhere good.

Oh, and one other thing, if this stuff keeps up, I will tell Jon that I will post announcements about where The Magic Bus will be exhibiting, along with all the positive statements about it by the likes of Robert Harley, and you guys can come at me.


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

Are you, by chance, affiliated with Amy's Baking Company?


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

OSN said:


> Are you, by chance, affiliated with Amy's Baking Company?


No, but I do like their products and live close to their offices.


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## asota (Feb 7, 2011)

Buzzman said:


> Wow, what a f____ked up thread this is. The fact that you Mods even labeled it “The Magic Bus discussion *dump*” (emphasis added) says a lot. Whether you intended to or not, you guys are facilitating this ********. The lack of respect for Jon, and the venom spewed his way by people who don’t know him or have never met him, is appalling and offensive.
> 
> OK, some of you guys have gripes with him about what you view to be inappropriate “self-promotion.” But do you have to communicate your thoughts this way? The man spent a lot of his own time and money to build The Magic Bus, an accomplishment about which he is most proud. Why do you want to deny him that? A lot of very well respected people with great ears have heaped accolades on The Bus. So Jon gets his ass liposuctioned by you guys for simply repeating what others have said about his achievement. He has every right to repeat those remarks. Before you start throwing stones, look in the mirror and ask yourself how many times you have repeated something positive someone said about your ride.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100% but you may draw the clueless out of the woodwork again.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Buzzman said:


> Oh, and one other thing, if this stuff keeps up, I will tell Jon that I will post announcements about where The Magic Bus will be exhibiting, along with all the positive statements about it by the likes of Robert Harley, and you guys can come at me.


Would you also post all the not so positive reviews? At least then it will be much easier to gauge How it really compares.

I know Scott Buwalda offered a friendly competition at CES and Jon declined. But something like that would have offered some further insight and a direct comparison to a standard which people are at least familiar with.

I've never heard the Bus as it is seldom on the right Coast and I am seldom on the Left coast or at least in a time when the Bus is available, but Ive spoken with several people over the past few years who's ears I do Trust and their reviews and insight on how it sounded were less than stellar and far from "the best car stereo in the world".

Like anything, if something is being called the best--people have a natural curiosity to know what it is, how it got there and how it compares to other standards.
"BEST" is a comparative term against a standard or reference. All anyone is asking is that there be some realistic measurement or standard for comparison.


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## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

Mic10is said:


> Ive spoken with several people over the past few years who's ears I do Trust and their reviews and insight on how it sounded were less than stellar and far from "the best car stereo in the world".


Mic,

As Jon's kickstand diyma members would say... that "is appalling and offensive."



:thumbsup:


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

asota said:


> I agree with you 100% but you may draw the clueless out of the woodwork again.


Disagreeing with Jon's self-serving attitude= clueless...gotcha 

Just out of sheer boredom, I've gone thru all of Jon's posts here on DIYMA and they all fall into 3 categories: 
1. event discussion (where you get the honor of hearing the Magic Bus™)
2. an offer to tune (probably not free)
3. a link to his website (which shows pictures, a few measurements, and a whole lot of testimonials and accolades)

Jon always speaks in third person because he _wants_ people to think that others are writing on his behalf and giving him praise, when in fact it's just him being narcissistic

These are HIS words...


> The Magic Bus is the official demonstration vehicle for Whitledge Designs. It is a world-renowned, one-of-a-kind lifetime masterpiece, which has garnered unprecedented critical acclaim by both home and mobile audio industry experts. It is the only audio system in the world that is extensively autographed by famous and talented musicians, and as such, it is considered priceless and collectible. It is exhibited at important audio and music industry events. It is my rolling curiculum vitae and proof that Whitledge Designs can offer potential customers unprecedented design, fabrication, and tuning services.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

as much as i dont like his self promoting, and whatnot.. i am still very eager to hear it one day. using the word "best", especially when it hasnt been under any form of real judgement is just asking for a number on your head


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

This post is really to answer Jon W.s viewpoint ...*for DIYMA others...you might want to skip this*... I'm just trying to explain the validity of having someone from an entirely different field making a claim that his car is "best".

Wow.... so many posts in so little time.I'm 4 pages behind. 



jon w. said:


> dear Golden Ears,
> 
> i appreciate your post and your viewpoints. i'm sorry, but i should remember who you are. i tried to find the name corresponding to room 532 but i couldn't cross-reference it. do you mind revealing your company name?
> 
> ...


Jon W. You asked for it...super painful marathon post...ugghgh lol..I don't even want to proof read this. I hope I never have to write something this long again.

Quick answers first.

1. Jon W. "i appreciate your post and your viewpoints. i'm sorry, but i should remember who you are. i tried to find the name corresponding to room 532 but i couldn't cross-reference it. do you mind revealing your company name? "

VERY Old company "xxxxxx" Loudspeakers. since 1964...no one has ever heard of it....and without an advertising budget, no one *will* ever hear of it....lol... But I like the guy, haven't made a dime with him yet... and I think he makes some of the best speakers. Through his recommendation I became the SoCal MIT rep... for a bit but was too injured and lost that position..sad...  

I never wanted to get back into High end Home audio sales...but I heard a dynamic cone speaker (I'm a large format planar guy) that was so good, I wanted it for myself (only has happened with one other dynamic cone loudspeaker) ... so I got to know the owner... who is helping me do crossovers for my car.... and this guy KNOWS CROSSOVERS..holy crap. lol...and without him YET building any crossovers for me ( I'm going to go all active at first and then ask him to build the best cost no object ultimate passive crossover.) I am looking forward to his amazing crossover magic that makes the speaker sound as a whole, not separate parts. something desperately needed in car audio.


I didn't want to post the manufacturers name so left it as "xxxx" but PMed Jon W. since he asked... I don't want to violate vendor rules here. I can say however, since I do not in any way represent them.... that we will likely be using MSB digital front ends... which IMHO are state of the Art. We do not sell MSB, we just like them. Right now, they are the Bugatti of Digital...though I have not heard the Vivaldi DCS (but know their house sound). Jon W. You need to hear these MSB products if you have not already heard their current product line.

2. Jon W. " if you feel comfortable doing so, please explain to the folks on this forum what you would do if robert harley declared any of your products to be "the world's best". "



This is a long answer...throughly detailed, to get you to understand what JH's validity or ANY single high end home reviewers Validity is on proclaiming your car as "Best".

If JH proclaimed the Loudspeakers in my room as "best" it would have _some_ validity...*as he is a well regarded expert in the field of HIGH END HOME AUDIO, but his opinion is like any single viewers opinion*. It alone would not carry the weight of "Best" without the support of other reviewers in his publication. When they determine "class A recommended components"..they vote. And that is not to determine "best" it is to categorize them as being better than some others. 

For instance one prominent online Magazine recently gave us an award, we were the only loudspeaker company to get an award that year from that Magazine, it does not automatically make us "Best". And certainly citing this Online Magazine would not make us "Best" in the eyes of even its own readership.



3. Jon W. "i'm curious, what value do you assign to robert harley's review, especially relative to the IASCA and MECA judging process?"

My personal thoughts on the judging process there, have little validity since I have never competed in this field. Like RH, I am an audiophile, interested in getting good high end home sound, or "the illusion of live" in a car.

From what I saw from IASCA in the 1990's and talking to other competitors ..I any car that won might not have the best possible sound ..in that.... some areas of the judging process seemed heavily weighted. It rewarded install attention to detail and documentation (something that no one cares about in High end home audio in judging sound quality). It also seemed to be heavily weighted towards a centered image and RTA (but not referenced to a db level) ...which Fletcher Munson curves would show it has no weight at all compared to what we hear in terms of convincing us a presentation of a performer is "real". Judges in both fields reference a CD as their reference , NOT LIVE MUSIC, so the CD is a facsimile and in many ways is worse than referencing a system in a room with particular components. Audio reproduction strives for perfect Mimickry. But what a judge or reviewer uses as his bias might note perfect mimickry in what he looks for.... but might exhibit less than perfect mimickry in areas he was not observing closely. That's why more than one opinion is needed.

In regards to MECA there is a believability score, and ambiance score- but their overall weighting is light compared to the total of the many other sections. According to pages 26-31 of their 2011 score sheet guidelines I could find easily.

http://www.mecacaraudio.com/dnn50/Competitors/SQL/GeneralSQLRules.aspx

In high end home audio, these sections would be much more heavily weighted than "center" image, or stage placement...(not to be confused with sound stage).







As for Robert Harley, I think he, Jonathan Valin, Robert Greene and many others have great insight into home audio. BUT....
That being said....it is easy to impress a home audio guy with BASS like they only wish they could experience at home in a car. If Harley sat in "Little Yellow" a Honda Civic from the 1980's and not the MBMB he might proclaim it to be the best car ever and get it on the front cover of Stereophile.

It is also easy to impress a Pro Audio guy with clarity and detail he only wishes he could get in a PA system. A Pro audio guy might hear MBL loudspeakers and proclaim them to have the most clarity of all High end Home loudspeakers. errr... I think he would be wrong, but he would like that they also play very loudly. If a younger qualified pro audio guy of today heard a Funktion One sound system he might say it was "the best" having never heard the historically great club systems.

I also think if you were into headphones.....a lot of car systems might be tactile bass impressive.

I am one of those odd balls... I like all audio. 

*I like great pro audio*
I loved the club systems of the 1970's and 1980's when drivers were great, discreet construction for electronics was expected ...Rudy Bozak made incredible stuff, JBL was trying to be loud and clear...and made some expensive drivers that did deliver...and a bunch of wacked out amyl nitrate pill popping gay guys had a crew that could setup systems like no one else.. (They all died of AIDS...no more good sound.) 


*I like headphones*
CA- Venice meet at our beach Home again....The last time was fun.

I hosted two of these meets and will host another soon.

*I love high end audio
* And was a young audiophile at 15, been selling the stuff every time I get injured from snowboarding..and need a day job.

*I love/hate car stereo*
Not because I don't enjoy a good system, but because it is a royal PITA....both to find a installer with good ears, one that doesn't rip you off, or total your car doing a big install. I love great car audio.... I just don't like the business. If guys tried to pull the crap that gets pulled in car audio in pro audio...they would cut off your legs with an elevator.

Car audio is by far the most time consuming.

So ... I don't think I could send a car audio guy into a T.H.E. Show Newport Beach and have them pick the best of show system...and have that be in agreement with the top home reviewers.

Nor do I think I could take ANY reviewer from TAS or Stereophile and plop them into the top 20 competition cars and have them pick the same winner the car audio judges would pick.

PEOPLE LISTEN FOR DIFFERENT THINGS. 

Car audio is obsessed with staging (talking about 1 seaters here)... to an unhealthy degree... Its just not worth compromising so many other factors to try and distort a stage into some warped facsimile of a real stage. And introducing endless timing errors and doubling, or quadrupling the timing errors....and subsequent tsunami of timing reflections.

Home Audio is obsessed with trying to make every component flat and true to the source... and they hate EQ... but what they won't tell you is that they love vinyl which has a super heavy EQ RIAA curve.

Pro Audio is obsessed with dispersion, and coverage, no realizing that some people actually don't want it that loud and prefer seats further from the stage for that reason.

So while I totally respect when Robert Harley as a reviewer... and closely read his reviews for DACs..and other gear...I don't always agree with him.

Robert Harley's Best of CES | The Absolute Sound

I was at this show, and IMHO Saunders Electro Stats were much nicer and consistently get remarks that are positive...but they barely advertise..Their magtech amp finally is getting positive mentions.

and sometimes...I do agree with him....

Shows


When TAS or Stereophile hears a ground breaking component...they send it around to get a consensus before they proclaim it to be "Best" or "Class A recommended components" or whatever.

This has not yet happened with the MBMB. And even if it did...and while I respect their ears MUCH more than car audio guys ears... their car sample size is simply too small for them to effectively judge what is best. Any decent car tonally is so unusual for them..

case in point....

Sound In Motion - Boston's Best Mobile Entertainment Design, Installation & Custom Fabrication Shops

Car audio + high end ...round 1.

Wes Phillips
Stereophile Magazine
Santa Fe, New Mexico
"The Great White Rhino"
"Stereophile could not have started our series on car audio had it not been for your consideration, craftsmanship and corporation. The initial installation on our test car, The Great White Rhino, has proven its worth I must say, however, that working with you has spoiled me. I’ve found guys that know almost as much as you, or who can do electrical work almost as cleanly as you, or who can calculate speaker placement almost as precisely as you---but they work at three different shops and they’re still not as easy to work with as you! I envy the people that will be having you install their car stereos. They’re going to be exposed to the highest levels of craftsmanship and meticulous attention to detail"

Wes Phillips, 

Ok... Wes took some of Dusty Vawters tiny little home components that run on 12 volts... Audio Alchemy, and got Derek Kenny from Sound In Motion (SIM Allston, MA...I think these are the most trustworthy car audio guys I have ever met, they deliver on time and under budget and do great work.) Now Derek is not a high end home audio guy... a great installer. Like think of your experience at Richs Cartunes of Watertown, and then think of SIM as completely the opposite experience . No hype, just straight forward guys. Compared to what Derek is capable of..install wise...Anyone every see that crazy motorized toyota supra with the video screens in the doors? The Great White Rhinos install was just a few steps away from a deck and 4. But Wes Phillips thought it was awesome....you guys certainly would not... if someone has the Stereophile issues photos please post them up...

SO Wes Phillips had a great installer, but he did not add enough sound deadening, used horrible stock locations - just made the holes bigger. and did not upgrade the electrical system (at first), and chose a horrendous car..and ancient Jeep Grand Waggoneer.... that's like putting musicians in Boston Symphony Halls bathroom and saying the acoustics are good. That has to be one of the worst car audio sounding cars I have ever had the displeasure of riding in... (My friend owned one, and we had to endure it on long snowboard trips..rattle trap- it ain't no Acura).

And Wes was happy with the sound, though it was problematic with noise. No one posting on this thread would be happy with that system today...or even years ago. but it did get me thinking about car audio. Because of a high end reviewer, and because McIntosh was in it, and because Nakamichi made a remote pre-amp which would solve the single ended issues of cabling. The article and car audio industry appealed to high end home sensibilities....for that instant in time.

Wes got one thing right.... Car audio digital and line level sources suck. ...they really do. And that was the benefit of cross pollination of car audio with high end home audio. He tried to remove jitter with one of Dusty Vawters Audio Alchemy devices....Dusty runs Channel Islands audio today....
good stuff I am sure.

Pro audio would call us fools for having single ended unbalanced systems. ..and they probably would be right. Single ended sounds better in home audio because the impedance is half ...but only if the cables are short (1.5 meter or less- to avoid RF and other noise...and you have to have them cross at right angles. (hard in a car).

*So Robert Harley's option of calling the MBMB "Best" well.. probably not worth much unless he also heard MOST of the other cars that were also considered best..and even then.... not so sure I would say his opinion has enough car audio experience behind it...to understand what counts... certainly a great sounding install that is done so poorly that a cars battery would go dead in an hour while driving it, or could lead to a short and a fire, should never be considered "best" and he might not know how to weigh the importance of some things in judging a car.* obviously your MBMB is drivable , and reliable- so I am not talking specifically about your MBMB..I'm talking about using high end home reviewers to judge car audio....and their validity of their judgments in hearing a very small sample of car audio and proclaiming one car... "Best". If RH had competed himself before, for a couple of years over a span of 10-20 years, and had heard the last 4 winners, as well as historically good sounding cars...there would be a lot less doubt as to the validity of "Best" . It is certainly possible and likely that your MBMB has been the best sounding car he has ever heard...I mean...I would not doubt his ears, or his reputation at all.. *I also would expect that if any of the car audio people or car audio Judges were to go into any of the top 40 rooms in HI-FI shows in the past 6 years.... and only hear that one room, they would be likely to proclaim it as the "best home stereo" they have ever heard, and likely in the world.*

So RH saying it is the best, without the experience of other cars, and a without consensus amongst other reviewers who also would need the experience of hearing many of the top cars.... *really is just one mans opinion* who has little car audio background compared to most car audio judges. (I do think JH has better ears....) . Even if you got 5 or 10 other TAS or Stereophile reviewers to say the MBMB is the best car audio they have ever heard... _it would only carry weight to their publications readers_ who would ascribe more weight to their review than a car audio guy like Mark Eldridge that they might not be familiar with. For me... it carries a lot of weight to go check it out, but do I think likely is the best in its field because of it? No, but worth checking out.

For instance ( as an aside to knowing some things in an area of audio that others might not) in Head-fi...some people roll their own DAC chips (like tube rolling for home audio), an excerpt from Currawong on DAC chips...

_A lot of the sound of these things has to do with the USB receiver, I've found. 

XMOS + Sabre = flat, lifeless, eg: Calyx DAC 24/192. The Dragonfly has a bit of this negative trait too, but it isn't quite so bad.
Centrance + Sabre = "Analytical", ie: The treble isn't the nicest and the result isn't "musical" so much = Benchmark DAC2
Audiophilleo1/PP + Sabre = Excellent, clear, but the music has life.
Bad USB + BB/TI PCM179X = harsh and unpleasant (eg: Luxman DA-100 and DA-200).
Good USB + BB/TI PCM179X = Glorious, with a golden halo around the music. I'm guessing the Meridian Explorer will be a cheap example of the BB sound.
Bad USB + Wolfson or Cirrus = Less detail, but forgiving.
Good USB + Wolfson or Cirrus = More detail._

Could a car audio guy be expected to do this??? Review the DAC chips in car audio decks????

Not really...

....could Currawong make the right choices in building a car audio system...not knowing the psycho acoustics in play and issues with car.... uh...probably not. Again cross judging may not have validity.

So Jon W. you have always been gracious to me, and can't wait to have you show up at my room, I can't say that the logic follows that if Robert Harley says it is the "Best" that you can tote it as "Best" with conviction. Your MBMB has a bit of a studio sound to me. I would expect studio musicians who are accustomed to that sound, to really like it. I own Genelec s30D ribbon tweeter 3 way monitors internally tri-amped with class a/b amps I think about 375 watts a speaker, with Decca derived ribbons.... and many think as Studio monitors the s30D are one of the best... (even ranked well -class A- by The Abso!ute Sound by Robert E. Greene ) But NO ONE in high end home, would consider them sounding super musical (they are musical but as monitors they are analytical tools and as such- a bit sterile- they will not produce rosin on the bow induced overtones on a cello that make your chest resonate ...like better home speakers). I do not listen to these at home. I use them as Midfield DJ monitors, and the occasional connection to a TV. Otherwise I listen to Home audio speakers which are more musical to my ears.

What having Robert Harley listen to your MBMB did, was show that a high end home reviewer *could* enjoy a car system.. *WHICH IS A HUGE DEAL!!!!!!!* as it probably brought some audiophiles into car audio showrooms (But most probably left disappointed because the sources are so lacking and the tuning skills of car audio guys in voicing systems are no where near the best home audio guys ..who have zillions of dollars in test gear, state of the art facilities, and so on. If you had a audio company in Canada...the Gov't has a state of the art facility you can use to do audio testing...pretty amazing.. But your car won't fit through the door... 

Simply, car audio will never be state of the art home audio...where often a room is built tuned specifically for the gear, electrical service is essentially unlimited as is space, and budget...also seems to be unlimited for some (not me).

So when I went around to car audio shops, what I hear , essentially, (no offense to any installers or speaker manufacturers here) are speaker systems that sound like they are third tier high end home speakers or mid-fi manufacturers at best. You will never get the midrange clarity of Quad ESL -57 or 63's in a car ...ever... nor will you get clean delineated bass like running Krell amps with Revel loudspeakers, or highs from a Plasma tweeter. Never gonna happen.....ever. To paraphrase a quote from "Jaws" ...."We're gonna need a bigger boat" and not just a bigger bus, you'll need a 18 wheeler with full 45 ' 10 foot slide outs on both sides (Just carjack the one Bose uses and get to work).

Now, Jon, if you have the high end home background... you don't think you would be judged by your audio peers. But your MBMB probably would do well, it might even win depending on who was judging it....and therein... is the rub.

Car audio judges typically have weak unamplified audio reference points, possibly damaged hearing, and choose to use home systems a a reference , which is like using a look-a-like of Marilyn Monroe as a reference to judge other look-a-likes in a Marilyn Monroe beauty contest only with midgets that look like her and have the left side of her face distorted.. and who is to say .....that the judges wouldn't just pick the girl with the biggest boobs, or the best lips that portray the taller Marilyn look-a-like. 

But I think.... in order to get respect, you will have to compete. and failing...is not a bad thing. I won a world Championship, but I failed the first 3 times. (and that...well that's pretty good ...because no one else had to only enter three times to win one.....) so expect failure, don't be ashamed, get up and do it again..... until you win. and if you never win....well at least Robert Harley thinks its great. And mind you...that was timed racing...not judging....

And if you can win more than one... well it just garners even more respect. But you can't win if you don't enter.


And if you fail the first year and get 15th...and the next year you get 7th, and the next year you get 3rd.... well the hostility you get will fade.. guaranteed. You might even get some fans....that before were attacking you.

As a racer, I would get annoyed at the "Pro" courses that were set which IMHO were not a measure of true top 20 pro level skill. So I sometimes wouldn't bother to compete...as I set practice courses that were ten times harder. People who saw me do these courses, who had seen the top pros proclaimed me as "Fastest" "Best" "Superhuman" "boneless". But it dod not earn me the bragging rights of World Champion. I broke a 24 year standing Guinness book of World records, and still could not call myself "The best". Two years later I got a Silver medal from the French and Spanish Olympic Committees for a Games they had and judged.....(not the Olympics as my sport never made it in). Still...no "Best" just "Second Best"...sorta I suppose... I had always competed as an amatuer but did not compete as a Pro until 1999. It took me until 2002 to win a World title , and I went to a hall of fame dinner last weekend, and people still talked to me about being a World Champion....though for the most part I feel it was so long ago now 

But what I am saying a "Best" means......beating everyone else...even at their own game of crap , lesser skilled annoyingly slow race courses that rewarded brute fitness over skill. 

And that, JW is what you will have
to do.

Dive into those trenches...and see if you come up with a win. I had to do it...it was annoying, but what is even more annoying is not being recognized for your efforts and time...and that is what competition is for....earning the respect of your competitors.

I think you have nothing to lose even if you lose....at first.... you might get heckled.....but in the long run... you just might win...it might take a little time, but your efforts need to be recognized through competition...the worst is over , your MBMB is already built. and paid for. And if you are proud of your fabrication skills....well... why not be in the lanes with other great fabricators who will appreciate your work a lot more than Robert Harley. Who BTW is a really super nice guy- he just doesn't know what sorta time you have to put into this hobby to really appreciate it.

If you won the first time around.... things would really change. 

BTW.... a few guys at DIYMA that are currently giving you crap, probably just want you to pay your competition dues- get yer licks- and become a club member.


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

No way I have time to read this whole 'thing'. I'll be in Modesto, CA over the summer and offer my 28 years of car audio experience to give it a listen. I have no dogs in any of these fights and will give an honest unbiased opinion, for free. I certainly qualify- as a long time hobbyist, will bring my own music, will not pay you to listen, will not charge you to listen, and I even pay DIYMA to peddle stuff out of my garage on here.

Kirk


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## cAsE sEnSiTiVe (Jun 24, 2008)

Golden Ears said:


> *I like headphones*
> CA- Venice meet at our beach Home again....The last time was fun.
> 
> I hosted two of these meets and will host another soon.


Now I know where I thought I'd remembered your screen handle from.....Head-Fi!


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

BigAl205 said:


> Jon always speaks in third person because he _wants_ people to think that others are writing on his behalf and giving him praise, when in fact it's just him being narcissistic
> 
> These are HIS words...
> The Magic Bus is the official demonstration vehicle for Whitledge Designs. It is a world-renowned, one-of-a-kind lifetime masterpiece, which has garnered unprecedented critical acclaim by both home and mobile audio industry experts. It is the only audio system in the world that is extensively autographed by famous and talented musicians, and as such, it is considered priceless and collectible. It is exhibited at important audio and music industry events. It is my rolling curiculum vitae and proof that Whitledge Designs can offer potential customers unprecedented design, fabrication, and tuning services.


I hope this is not your example of Jon speaking in the 3rd person. I'm not saying that he never does, but "Whitledge Designs" is his company name.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

AcuraTLSQ said:


> No way I have time to read this whole 'thing'. I'll be in Modesto, CA over the summer and offer my 28 years of car audio experience to give it a listen. I have no dogs in any of these fights and will give an honest unbiased opinion, for free. I certainly qualify- as a long time hobbyist, will bring my own music, will not pay you to listen, will not charge you to listen, and I even pay DIYMA to peddle stuff out of my garage on here.
> 
> Kirk


You definitely have the ear Kirk, but you might be too close to be unbiased. Meaning your car is too good. Meaning, I don't think Mark Eldridge would listen to Scott's car and give an unbiased and honest opinion. I think if you compete at finals, if wouldn't be fair. People have too much pride in their own vehicle they have built to praise another and admit that someone else is better (whether they are or not). 

I know if I were Jon and wanted to actually be "judged" I would be very careful on who I had listen....like at CES, did anyone ever think Jon would get a fair shake?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> You definitely have the ear Kirk, but you might be too close to be unbiased. Meaning your car is too good. Meaning, I don't think Mark Eldridge would listen to Scott's car and give an unbiased and honest opinion. I think if you compete at finals, if wouldn't be fair. People have too much pride in their own vehicle they have built to praise another and admit that someone else is better (whether they are or not).
> 
> I know if I were Jon and wanted to actually be "judged" I would be very careful on who I had listen....like at CES, did anyone ever think Jon would get a fair shake?


Knowing Mark and Kirk, I think that them being biased is a non-issue. Kirk and I are friends and he has no problem telling me my car sucks. 

Mark is a straight shooter, too. 

I think there may be haters out there who wouldn't be honest but I wouldn't put those two guys in that mix. Of course, that's my biased opinion.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Knowing Mark and Kirk, I think that them being biased is a non-issue. Kirk and I are friends and he has no problem telling me my car sucks.
> 
> Mark is a straight shooter, too.
> 
> I think there may be haters out there who wouldn't be honest but I wouldn't put those two guys in that mix. Of course, that's my biased opinion.


I'm sure he tells you when your car sucks.....but does he tell you that your car ever does X better? If he does, then I would trust him because that is hard for anyone to do.


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

cAsE sEnSiTiVe said:


> Now I know where I thought I'd remembered your screen handle from.....Head-Fi!


It's a nickname given to me by Boston audio stores from the 1980's. I would go in, start moving stuff around, putting things together...and not always the biggest or most expensive stuff (though often it was)..and whatever I set up became the reference system for the store. I would come back weeks later and they would have tape on the floor to show where to put the speakers back.

I didn't buy much of anything save a single Entec SW-1 subwoofer from Boston High end stores- from Goodwins High End .... , and bought set of Infinity Reference Standard RS1 speakers from Sid Marks who wrote "Marks Barks" a record review column from TAS (The Abso!ute Sound magazine)...that was back when they were booklet sized mags. He has the most incredible record collection imaginable. Those RS1's have been replaced by RS1-b and I have some older perfect condition Magneplanar Tympani IV-a which will get some crossover mods soon. I have the entire line of "xxxxx" speakers in my Corona del Mar Home in Newport Beach...it's like Stonehendge here. Lucky my GF would rather have speakers than furniture...she's into car audio big time...two MC431 in her car, working on getting NEO 10 in there, using teh Hi-fi M8 as her source. I shouldn't be posting ..I should be fabricating..

So the GE nickname stuck... and I use it so people that know me from those days and did not even know my real name might spot me. Happens a bunch at the audio shows..I used to dial in systems to pay my way through college....people still remember me as "GE" 32 years later, but not my real name.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> I'm sure he tells you when your car sucks.....but does he tell you that your car ever does X better? If he does, then I would trust him because that is hard for anyone to do.


well, no. because I don't let him hear it. (edit: I should add that I'm just kidding here)
Though, actually, Kirk hasn't heard my car in a long time. I actually just listened to his for the first time in 2 years yesterday.


Anyway... Kirk has helped some up and coming members over the years (myself and others I won't mention out of turn). He actually helped one a couple months ago who wound up beating him that day. Most of the guys in MECA - at least in my region - are the same. I've helped people beat me and helped people beat my friends. Ultimately, we're all just trying to improve and learn. Competition and being first is cool and yea, I hate when I've worked hard on the system only to get hammered (like yesterday), but the goal for most of us is to improve. If that means someone else is better then that means we have to work harder.


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Ultimately, we're all just trying to improve and learn. Competition and being first is cool and yea, I hate when I've worked hard on the system only to get hammered (like yesterday), but the goal for most of us is to improve. If that means someone else is better then that means we have to work harder.


VERY WELL SAID!

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


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## astrochex (Aug 7, 2009)

OSN said:


> Are you, by chance, affiliated with Amy's Baking Company?


Having seen the Restaurant Nightmares episode, if not tongue-in-cheek, this is genuinely harsh. That couple gives psychotics a bad name.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

AcuraTLSQ said:


> No way I have time to read this whole 'thing'. I'll be in Modesto, CA over the summer and offer my 28 years of car audio experience to give it a listen. I have no dogs in any of these fights and will give an honest unbiased opinion, for free. I certainly qualify- as a long time hobbyist, will bring my own music, will not pay you to listen, will not charge you to listen, and I even pay DIYMA to peddle stuff out of my garage on here.
> 
> Kirk


That would be a good solution in my opinion. Ill even "let" you judge my TL when you're out here but I don't want to hurt your feelings.


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

Niebur3 said:


> I hope this is not your example of Jon speaking in the 3rd person. I'm not saying that he never does, but "Whitledge Designs" is his company name.


No, The new paragraph was meant to be another point. As far as 3rd party, I mean stuff like...



> Jon Whitledge of Whitledge Designs originally designed and machined these one-of-a-kind, gold-plated spade terminals, machined from "oxygen-free" copper. The included mechanical drawing shows the dimensions, grade of copper, and the gold plating specifications. The spade was designed for a #8 screw, but refer to the detailed drawing for more specifics (a #10 screw does not fit!). The photo shows 31 inches of clear 4:1 Teflon (TM) heatshrink tubing that is also included with ten of these beauties. Of course you don't NEED them, but these are simply too cool to resist! These are the only ones in the world, and a great way to add that special finishing touch to your masterpiece. After seeing these, why would you even consider using lesser terminals?


http://www.mobilesoundscience.com/f...hined-gold-plated-8-spade-terminals-sale-861/


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> Would you also post all the not so positive reviews? At least then it will be much easier to gauge How it really compares.


Come on Mic, you know what I meant. But, I will play along with you. No, I won’t post all the not so positive reviews. Just do a search on this forum and you will readily find those. In fact, some are offered in this thread and even you state “I've never heard the Bus as it is seldom on the right Coast and I am seldom on the Left coast or at least in a time when the Bus is available, but Ive spoken with several people over the past few years who's ears I do Trust and their reviews and insight on how it sounded were less than stellar and far from ‘the best car stereo in the world’.” 



Mic10is said:


> I know Scott Buwalda offered a friendly competition at CES and Jon declined. But something like that would have offered some further insight and a direct comparison to a standard which people are at least familiar with.


I remember that “friendly” offer. But, your position presumes “people” are personally familiar with the sound in Scott’s car. I can guarantee you that like The Magic Bus, most people who have heard about Scott’s car have not actually listened to music in it. Perhaps the few who have heard both will at some point share their opinion, and many people will form their opinions based on that. I prefer to form my own opinion based on what I actually hear. 



Mic10is said:


> Like anything, if something is being called the best--people have a natural curiosity to know what it is, how it got there and how it compares to other standards.
> 
> "BEST" is a comparative term against a standard or reference. All anyone is asking is that there be some realistic measurement or standard for comparison.


True, with regard to “best.” But what is that “realistic” measurement? A MECA or IASCA competition? You know well the divergence of opinions regarding the merits of those. And even within those formats “judges” disagree with regard to what they hear. Those who have referred to The Magic Bus as the “best” have done so in the context of what they themselves have heard. Jon publishes those persons’ opinions and I have no problem with that. Clearly, a lot of people have a problem with him doing so and get really worked up about it. But, I am confident that the vast majority of these folks, had they spent the time, money and other resources to build such a vehicle, would do the same thing. If those who so strongly disagree with the opinions of these third parties either just accept that these are personal opinions, qualified by what the person has actually heard, or focused their efforts on exposing these third parties to other mobile audio systems that may or may not change their opinion about the Magic Bus being the “best,” that would be much more productive in my opinion. 



darrenforeal said:


> Mic,
> As Jon's kickstand diyma members would say... that "is appalling and offensive.":thumbsup:


Yo Darren, considering those quoted words were written by me, how about explaining what a "kickstand diyma member" is? 



astrochex said:


> Having seen the Restaurant Nightmares episode, if not tongue-in-cheek, this is genuinely harsh. That couple gives psychotics a bad name.


I didn’t even know these folks were the subject of a TV reality show. I did enjoy that piece of pie though. Here I am thinking he saw my Scottsdale address and was asking me a legitimate question. Geez, I am so naïve. But, let’s give him the benefit of the doubt. I can be magnanimous.


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

Buzzman said:


> I didn’t even know these folks were the subject of a TV reality show. I did enjoy that piece of pie though. Here I am thinking he saw my Scottsdale address and was asking me a legitimate question. Geez, I am so naïve. But, let’s give him the benefit of the doubt. I can be magnanimous.


I did see Scottsdale, AZ, and your lashing of internet haters was just enough to make a joke of it (if you've followed the saga). I wasn't implying you were psychotic. 

Edit: it was uncovered that those tasty desserts were actually store bought. :surprised:


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

OSN said:


> I did see Scottsdale, AZ, and your lashing of internet haters was just enough to make a joke of it (if you've followed the saga). I wasn't implying you were psychotic.
> 
> Edit: it was uncovered that those tasty desserts were actually store bought. :surprised:


Thanks for clarifying all that. Store bought desserts?! They really had a nice presentation and made them look baked on the premises. Sounds like Amy and the hubby got just what they deserved :laugh:


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

If you guys only knew how deep the ******* hole goes, you would change your minds about defending this guy.


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> If you guys only knew how deep the ******* hole goes, you would change your minds about defending this guy.


Enlighten us bro.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

goodstuff said:


> Enlighten us bro.


Yes, please. I can't stand seeing all this stuff going on in the forums (this thread and the intimid8r thread for the guy in australia) and no one will explain what's really going on

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

He has joined forums for the sole purpose of promoting himself and his business- his fabrication and tuning business now that his marketing vehicle is completed.

That's a fact.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Just look at everything for how it is and what it is.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

He tunes...at the cost of $800 a day if you come to him. He comes to you, you fork out:


$800/day for tuning
$77-184/day for lodging
$46-71/day for meals and expenses
$0.555/mile automobile mileage expense


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Want him to build something for you:

•Consultation on an hourly basis at $100/hr
•Engineering design and fabrication at $100/hr
•Entire systems or projects by the job starting at $10,000



The services provided by Whitledge Designs are not for everyone, and frankly, certain common desires of customers are better met by the services of other companies. Whitledge Designs generally prefers not to do any or all of the following:
•Conventional home theater systems (“pre-wired for sound”, systems with in-wall or in-ceiling speakers)
•Multi-zone or multi-room audio systems
•Mobile audio systems under $10,000
•Home audio or home theater systems under $10,000


I would want to see a large portfolio for that kind of money...not just one vehicle that is deemed the world's best.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

He complained about me on another forum...but used this screen name to complain about. This is the ONLY forum I have this screen name, the others- all of them, I use my last name. Why would you go to people on another forum where I go about a different name to complain about "thehatedguy" is making the sand in my vagina hurt...when "thehatedguy" isn't on that particular forum by that name.


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> He complained about me on another forum...but used this screen name to complain about. This is the ONLY forum I have this screen name, the others- all of them, I use my last name. Why would you go to people on another forum where I go about a different name to complain about "thehatedguy" is making the sand in my vagina hurt...when "thehatedguy" isn't on that particular forum by that name.


What's funny is that he complained before he even became a vendor. I've never seen preemptive whining before. :laugh:


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> He tunes...at the cost of $800 a day if you come to him. He comes to you, you fork out:
> 
> 
> $800/day for tuning
> ...


That's just rediculous.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

There goes the whole, "I just want to expose the home audio snobs to great mobile audio" argument.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

But it only got better...lol.



BigAl205 said:


> What's funny is that he complained before he even became a vendor. I've never seen preemptive whining before. :laugh:


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

My only issue is the untested tag of 'best'. How much he charges, well that's his business. Is he good at tuning probably yes. The best? That's unknown. Let's say he's good and overcharging. Well there's plenty of companies offering good products at inflated prices, umm there's Jl, Dynaudio, Focal etc. Let's say he's not that hot with tuning and charges the 800. Well there's Bose in that bracket.....


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Honestly, if the guy has the skill and people are willing to pay for his services, then he can charge whatever he wants. The market combined with his deemed self worth drive his pricing. So if he can money on it and he is OK doing so, then more power to him. 

The concerns I'd have as a potential customer lie here:
First, How does it fare against others that I could potentially pay for the job? Wen you shop for an installer, a contractor, a doctor, etc most people aim for value. What does your body if work say for itself. How do your previous customers feel about the ordeal; are they smitten or unhappy? Personally, I'm not naive enough to let one proclamation as "the best" drive that decision. I'd have to hear it along with others and/or see how it stacks up over a series of shows. It doesn't have to be the absolute best to gain my confidence but I would expect it to perform very well. 

Secondly, it's a bit odd to me that he charges so much to tune a system when his was finally tuned by someone else. It's a gray area for sure. I've had other competitors help me over the years. I've had people offer to pay me for services (so far I've only helped for free) but I also don't advertise my tuning ability as top flight. I've had offers from people and the first thing I tell them is I can help you get a base and understand but I'm not the kid of caliber listener as some I know are and would recommend they see those people as a final stage. If you catch me at a show ad ask me to help, just about anyone here who've met me can vouch that I don't hesitate to do so. 

Like I said, speaking in terms of what he charges is of no concern to me, really. I think it's just that rolled up in to how he presents his skills and his advertising as the best is an odd pairing to some degree. Regardless, if I had the means to make money off car audio or home audio (as an employee of a company or a consultant) I would pursue it. I just would go about it differently than Jon has. Namely in the department of humility. But, maybe to attract the clientele he's aiming for, his methods are correct. That's only known to him based in his happiness and comfort (financially and personally) in the jobs he takes on.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Niebur3 said:


> You definitely have the ear Kirk, but you might be too close to be unbiased. Meaning your car is too good. Meaning, I don't think Mark Eldridge would listen to Scott's car and give an unbiased and honest opinion. I think if you compete at finals, if wouldn't be fair. People have too much pride in their own vehicle they have built to praise another and admit that someone else is better (whether they are or not).
> 
> I know if I were Jon and wanted to actually be "judged" I would be very careful on who I had listen....like at CES, did anyone ever think Jon would get a fair shake?


If I recall correctly Mark and Scott judged each others' cars at Sketoe's show last summer. I highly doubt either of them said "he's biased and won't judge me fairly". They were in different classes, but have competed against each other in the past.

Kirk's car is too good... what exactly does that mean? Does that mean he really knows what he is listening for and therefore might not find the MB all that impressive, thereby diminishing its magic? Most here would value Kirk's opinion far more than someone who has no context of car audio. 

As I recall, when Scott made the offer to listen to Jon's van, nowhere was there any mention of anything competition related. What was Jon afraid of? I've personally watched Scott listen to a vehicle that didn't have any of his drivers in it and give his feedback, and it was all constructive stuff. And this individual was competing against several HAT team members. 



> People have too much pride in their own vehicle they have built to praise another and admit that someone else is better (whether they are or not).


I find that borderline offensive. I've spoken to several people who readily admitted that another car in their class was better than theirs, even giving specifics in some instances.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Just a minor clarification:



Buzzman said:


> I can guarantee you that like The Magic Bus, most people who have heard about Scott’s car have not actually listened to music in it.


My previous 4X IASCA championship competition vehicle, the G35, in its current trim, was at two consecutive CES shows, MERA KnowledgeFest, and two IASCA Finals. I'd take a conservative guess that 1,000 people have heard music in this car.

I'll back out of the discussion now...


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

Scott Buwalda said:


> Just a minor clarification:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Scott, clearly you missed my point. I never said or suggested that your car wasn't available for others to hear music in it. You vowed to back out of the discussion, and I don't expect a reply, but so you understand my position, and the point to which you responded, let me state it this way: 

It's probably fair to say that most people on this forum have "heard" *about *your car. But, how many of the people on this forum attend the events you list? I guarantee you a *very *small percentage. Assuming that your conservative guess of how many people have heard music in your car is accurate, what percentage of the people who attend those events does that constitute? I attended CES and have yet to hear music in your car. I know of several others who have also attended CES and didn't listen to music in your car. So, for many people like me, who haven't heard music in your car, should we conclude that its the "best" because it scored highest at a competition or a series of competitions? In my view no. I prefer to reserve judgment till I have a personal listening experience. Should your competition successes serve as incentive for me to spend time listening to music if that opportunity arises? Absolutely. And I am still hoping that opportunity arises. I have the same view with regard to the Magic Bus. I have spent considerable time listening to music in it, and based on what I have heard, and the opinions of others, anyone who has an opportunity to hear music in the Bus would be remiss if they didn't take advantage of that opportunity. Once they do so, they will form their opinion with regard to the music reproduction capabilities of the Bus, and if they have heard any of the other vehicles people consider the "best" in this market, they will assign the Bus the position they think appropriate based on their experiences.

Notwithstanding the fact I haven't heard music in your car, and thus haven't formed an opinion as to the merits of what you have executed, in my opinion you are entirely within your rights to "promote" the FACT that your car has been the recipient of the highest scores at a competition event and proclaimed the "best" by whoever made that determination. Some may disagree with that designation, having heard your car and based on their personal preferences for music reproduction. But, they can't deny that someone cited by you made that conclusion, and they shouldn't deny you the right to state that fact if you have been granted permission by the person(s) who made that determination to do so. That is the standard I feel should be applied to Jon and the Magic Bus. A number of high profile audio journalists, musicians, etc. have drawn conclusions based on *their *personal listening experience and he is publicly stating what THEY have stated. That's it. 

Yes, your car and the Magic Bus haven't squared off mano a mano in a competition, and probably never will. But, that doesn't mean the two haven't been compared already. It's very likely that more than a few of your estimated 1,000 listeners have heard the Magic Bus and thus have formed conclusions about both. I just haven't heard or seen remarks from anyone who falls in this category. And, I would expect that the opinions won't be unanimous. They never are. So, where does this leave us? As I stated in an earlier post, if anyone has an opportunity to hear any vehicle that is touted (whether by the vehicle's owner or some third party) to be the "best," they should try their darndest to get a personal audition and form their own opinion. Don't disparage the man or his hard work, especially when you haven't experienced him or his work first hand. But, after seeing the level of vitriol that continues to be directed toward Jon, I know with great certainty I am an idealist in a cruel world.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> Want him to build something for you:
> 
> •Consultation on an hourly basis at $100/hr
> •Engineering design and fabrication at $100/hr
> ...



I don't fault the guy for charging what the market can bare for his services. if there is bonofide demand at that rate, then the rate is fair no matter what the service.


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## DeanE10 (Apr 19, 2011)

Seriously... It's a PUBLIC forum full of COMPETITIVE people... Would YOU expect to walk into a room full of UFC Fighters and say "XYZ Magazine just said I was the best fighter there is" and NOT expect to get challenged?

Same for any other hobbyist collective.

Same thing for Jon.. He posted, many challenged... Find it appalling? Then a PUBLIC forum may not be for you.

Stop fussing already and go build something...!


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

DeanE10 said:


> Seriously... It's a PUBLIC forum full of COMPETITIVE people... Would YOU expect to walk into a room full of UFC Fighters and say "XYZ Magazine just said I was the best fighter there is" and NOT expect to get challenged?
> 
> Same for any other hobbyist collective.
> 
> ...


Well said. 



Posted from my Samsung Galaxy S III 32gb via tapatalk 2.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Buzzman said:


> Scott, clearly you missed my point. I never said or suggested that your car wasn't available for others to hear music in it. You vowed to back out of the discussion, and I don't expect a reply, but so you understand my position, and the point to which you responded, let me state it this way:
> 
> It's probably fair to say that most people on this forum have "heard" *about *your car. But, how many of the people on this forum attend the events you list? I guarantee you a *very *small percentage. Assuming that your conservative guess of how many people have heard music in your car is accurate, what percentage of the people who attend those events does that constitute? I attended CES and have yet to hear music in your car. I know of several others who have also attended CES and didn't listen to music in your car. So, for many people like me, who haven't heard music in your car, should we conclude that its the "best" because it scored highest at a competition or a series of competitions? In my view no. I prefer to reserve judgment till I have a personal listening experience. Should your competition successes serve as incentive for me to spend time listening to music if that opportunity arises? Absolutely. And I am still hoping that opportunity arises. I have the same view with regard to the Magic Bus. I have spent considerable time listening to music in it, and based on what I have heard, and the opinions of others, anyone who has an opportunity to hear music in the Bus would be remiss if they didn't take advantage of that opportunity. Once they do so, they will form their opinion with regard to the music reproduction capabilities of the Bus, and if they have heard any of the other vehicles people consider the "best" in this market, they will assign the Bus the position they think appropriate based on their experiences.
> 
> ...


It's just IASCA.....what do they know about being the best. :shrug:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

I wonder how many really good car audio systems Robert Harley has listened to? I also wonder how many sanctioned audio judges have listened to it and what their unofficial opinions are?


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

The last I saw, this was _Do It Yourself Mobile Audio_, not _Competitive Mobile Audio_. That simple and childish view is completely contrary to what (I hope) this forum was founded upon. If it has changed, then somebody please update the banners so it is more clear.

It is true this is a public forum, and much of what is said is anonymous or without consequence, or both. Most of the internet operates this way and free speech is a good thing (the good, the bad, and the ugly included). Those with weak character fall prey to that trap and use it to do things they would not otherwise do in real life, face to face.

To use your example, would anyone really walk into a room of champion UFC fighters and claim they are the greatest martial artist without fear of being challenged? No way. But they would make that claim on the internet all day long because there is no consequence, no reputation to tarnish, no accountability to anyone. The same exact thing happens with bullying, anti-gay attacks, religion, politics ... etc. The sad thing is sometimes these wanton claims, attacks, and otherwise outrageous acts will _gain fame or status_. The more crazy and outlandish you can be, the more points you can score for your "team".

In contrast, those who resist the temptation, and try to maintain their integrity by saying only things they might say to people face to face, _gain respect_. The difference is black and white, and I wonder why more people don't see it.

*So moderators, admins, and whoever else has a stake in this, I'm calling you out.* Define what this forum is all about and what content and behavior is expected from its members. Then enforce the rules upon the members, and especially upon yourselves. Either allow (and encourage) the forums to continue to devolve into CompetitiveMobileAudio.com, or take the more difficult route and restore it to DoItYourselfMobileAudio.

Either way, be very honest about it and don't hide behind "moderator privilege" by claiming there are secrets that drive your actions because that is complete and utter ********.

-J


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Jazzi,
Read back to my numerous previous posts here and you'll see I've stated my issues in civil ways and have yet to have a reply to my sincere questions directed toward Jon. You can "call me out" anytime you wish. But do so directly. Don't lump everyone together. If there's one thing I can't stand it's an ego... And an Internet tough guy. And your bit about "calling people out" sure came off as the latter. 

And, no, this isn't competitivecaraudio.com.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Mother of god... I just read all that....


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

chad said:


> Mother of god... I just read all that....


You can read? 



Posted from my Samsung Galaxy S III 32gb via tapatalk 2.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

BowDown said:


> You can read?
> 
> 
> 
> Posted from my Samsung Galaxy S III 32gb via tapatalk 2.


Not any more.....

I got ate up by bugs, got a touch of food poisoning, AND fell thru a deck last night, I'm pretty beat up and unlike normal me was considering taking some drugs as to not have to sleep in agony....

Don't have to now.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

darrenforeal said:


> *Moderator note:*
> 
> This thread is not a free-for-all for attacking Jon (or Jon to attack others). Keep your replies ... nice. If anyone gets out of line with personal attacks your post will be deleted. Be mindful of discussion. I know this is a controversial topic but this is _not_ OT and therefore a less lenient set of rules will apply.
> 
> ...





thehatedguy said:


> If you guys only knew how deep the ********* hole goes, you would change your minds about defending this guy.


So, based on the above, written by Erin, which Moderator is going to delete this post?

When is it okay for a Mod to call another member an *******? Who do you report a Mod to? 

Like Jon or not, agree with him or not, doesn't give ANYONE the right to call names and act like a child. If you have a beef with Jon calling you out (even though I thought he retracted your name) then ask him about it. If us regular member do this, we get an infraction or our post deleted. Maybe someone shouldn't be a Mod anymore!

Of all the Mods that have posted, Erin seems to be the only one that has reasonable arguments/concerns/questions.....ALL the others are promoting the negative attitudes and comments and it is really just sad.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

report us to us. that goes for everything. 

seriously. I'm not on here all day. I don't eat, live, breathe DIYMA. I miss a lot of stuff and other times I glaze over things. What I may or may not catch (because I didn't read it or just frankly didn't deem offensive myself), others may. So, report it. This goes for all the mods. Most of us (on the forum in general) are pretty responsible and are responsible enough to realize when we may have gone too far. 

Stepping a bit OT for a second, you guys can't really expect us to catch EVERYTHING that goes on in all these threads. I don't know a single mod who doesn't work a full time day job. Jerry, you know that I'm locked in a lab most of the day and rarely check posts during the day. Most of the others are tied up as well.

Since hatedguy stated that, I'll give him time to deal with it on his own.


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## Earzbleed (Feb 10, 2013)

Pfffffffffffffffff!!! My Falcon with the 5 channel amp, 4 speakers and sub is clearly the best in the world. I'd compete but I don't want to shame others.
Paypal me 10 bucks and I'll record it on my phone and email it to you.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Niebur3 said:


> So, based on the above, written by Erin, which Moderator is going to delete this post?
> 
> When is it okay for a Mod to call another member an *******? Who do you report a Mod to?
> 
> ...


I don't think he was calling Jon an *******. He's basically commenting on how deep this particular scenario runs.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> report us to us. that goes for everything.
> 
> seriously. I'm not on here all day. I don't eat, live, breathe DIYMA. I miss a lot of stuff and other times I glaze over things. What I may or may not catch (because I didn't read it or just frankly didn't deem offensive myself), others may. So, report it. This goes for all the mods. Most of us (on the forum in general) are pretty responsible and are responsible enough to realize when we may have gone too far.
> 
> ...


Sorry Erin, no I don't expect you guys to catch everything. Just get very frustrated with all of this. This thread has turned into everything it said it wouldn't be. And the "sheep" piling on that don't know **** with their 4-way 'by nines really need to stay out, IMHO. 



bassfromspace said:


> I don't think he was calling Jon an *******. He's basically commenting on how deep this particular scenario runs.


If that was his intent, then I took it wrong. By answer to Erin would be why.

And those mocking his fees....it's simple.....don't pay them! But who are you to decide what a persons time is worth? Jon is a business and he has never tried to make that a secret. Many professions charge more per hour than Jon does. Shops around me charge $85/hr for custom work (in the Midwest). Jon charges $100 on the West Coast. OMG, what is he thinking???? Come on, he has more knowledge than 90% of the people at shops you pay $85/hour to.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I wasn't trying to be rude. Just trying to put it in perspective for the others.


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

I have no interest in 'judging' it. Just listen. I'll be out there on business (non-audio related). Hope to break bread with the Zapco folks and catch up to Brian and Fred, if time allows. I'll get in touch with Jon when I know dates.

This is NOT for me BUT it is not UNcommon for a car to be dropped off with a 5+ figure check with the only requirements are loud/SQ/both and done in X amount of time. This is a DIY forum. That breed of folks are not here or at comps. Jon's business will come from word of mouth not from a millionaire Googling where to get a kick ass system.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Jazzi said:


> The last I saw, this was _Do It Yourself Mobile Audio_, not _Competitive Mobile Audio_. That simple and childish view is completely contrary to what (I hope) this forum was founded upon. If it has changed, then somebody please update the banners so it is more clear.
> 
> It is true this is a public forum, and much of what is said is anonymous or without consequence, or both. Most of the internet operates this way and free speech is a good thing (the good, the bad, and the ugly included). Those with weak character fall prey to that trap and use it to do things they would not otherwise do in real life, face to face.
> 
> ...


Great job Jazzi for glazing over every point made here.
Must have been one hell of an amazing phone call you had with Jon for you to be defending him, someone you've never met, with such vigor.
You're a MECA judge for Christ sake.
I would think that you would at least appreciate the slap in the face it is to people like Scott B.; the true actual winners that put their reputations on the line every season.
Erin is right that this is not CompetitiveCarAudio.com but since it's the only accurate measuring stick we have in this sport to evenly judge all that "choose" to participate, the results mean something.

Now call me/us/whomever out all you want, a silly notion all on it's own, but no one is hiding behind anything in this thread. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

bikinpunk said:


> Jazzi,
> Read back to my numerous previous posts here and you'll see I've stated my issues in civil ways and have yet to have a reply to my sincere questions directed toward Jon. You can "call me out" anytime you wish. But do so directly. Don't lump everyone together. If there's one thing I can't stand it's an ego... And an Internet tough guy. And your bit about "calling people out" sure came off as the latter.


Bikinpunk I absolutely understand and emphasize with you not being able to police everything. There is no way, it's not possible. However on a thread that you spent the time to identify as inflammatory and split off, and since there are multiple mods posting in it, and since you wrote some expectations up front about what this should not turn into, and since you are actively monitoring it (and posting very well thought out replies and trying to be constructive which is awesome) ... nobody should have to be reporting anything in this thread to the moderation team.

If I come off as an internet tough guy, that is not my intention and I'm sorry if it sounds that way. It is my frustration coming through that I'm slowly realizing this is forum is not the fun, constructive, critical thinking haven that it could be.


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Must have been one hell of an amazing phone call you had with Jon for you to be defending him, someone you've never met, with such vigor.


Bret,

I did not reference Jon, his work, or anything related. If you disagree with what I have to say, that's fine, but do not attack my credibility by accusing me of being manipulated by someone.

I do not want to ask a third time.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Jazzi said:


> Bret,
> 
> I did not reference Jon, his work, or anything related. If you disagree with what I have to say, that's fine, but do not attack my credibility by accusing me of being manipulated by someone.
> 
> I do not want to ask a third time.


For the record, I've carefully listened to all you've had to say about the matter.
You and I are good friends and sometimes friends argue.
In that spirit, you get the last word on the subject. :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

Buzzman said:


> Yo Darren, considering those quoted words were written by me, how about explaining what a "kickstand diyma member" is?



Just as a bike needs a kickstand to support itself. Jon solicits others to rise to his defense and support him. And that is a FACT. Though, I am not saying you are one. You just happened to say something of that flavor and incongruent with the real issue people have. Some of the things I have witnessed, and messages I have read are mind blowing. This is only a piece of the deeper layers which I will not get into.


Like I said before, I don't know Jon well. I will say that he achieved a great accomplishment in building the bus. In most of my interactions with him, he is most gracious and kind. Does that part of him warrant this deluge? No. It is his other select behavior and cognitive processes which do. 


The bus does sound great. Is it the best mobile audio setup I have heard? No. IMO his accomplishment should not stand in promoting it as 'the world's best car stereo' until he puts his money where his mouth is. There are plenty of other reasons to see and hear the bus. 

But to go around promoting it as the best, then getting all boo boo faced and butt hurt when people have a issue with that?? That is not only incredibly naive, but it shows he doesn't have a temperature of the climate around him. It's borderline masochistic.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Much like the response comparing Jons promotions of the bus being "the best" on a car audio site full of competitors to the room full of ufc guys, he really should have expected the backlash. To have his bus deemed the best in stereoblech magazine wouldn't stir up much stink.........but in a place like this, c'mon. Some of these guys have been involved in the hobby for many years, and most probably have near the same percentage of their disposable income invested as well. While some people get nasty when they see someone has a larger chunk to spend, I think most of the animosity comes from the best claim. If you want to promote it this way, you should stay out of the circles of people hardcore devoted to this world. To claim that here means you must have proof, and proof to these folks is trophies and titles............period.

Now all that aside, I'm sure the bus sounds great. I would love to hear it. I'd be willing to bet it could hold its own in any company........Scott's included, but stand above him, or any of the legendary builder's cars, in decisive fashion..........that's claims that need a proovin'.........at least in this world.


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

He took a small room, arranged the seats closer together, and sit them in front of studio monitors. This isn't car audio...it's home audio on wheels. If it was an athlete, people would be calling it a 'ringer'. I have no doubt that it sounds awesome. How could it _not_?


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## left channel (Jul 9, 2008)

Based on Harley's quote below it sounds to me that he has never auditioned a true SQ vehicle other than the Magic Bus. 

"I must say that I wasn’t overly enthusiastic about listening to Jon Whitledge’s van; such systems tend to be demonstrated at hearing-damaging levels, and attempt to impress with sheer sound-pressure level rather than audiophile criteria such as soundstaging, detail resolution, and naturalness of timbre. Nonetheless, I was intrigued after hearing about the system’s extraordinary design and execution.

I’m glad I put my prejudices aside, because listening to Jon Whitledge’s Magic Bus was a revelatory experience. Sitting in the driver’s seat with my portable CD case, I played one familiar reference disc after another. For starters, the system was extremely smooth and well balanced tonally. The treble didn’t exhibit the hyped metallic sound so often heard in cars, and the midrange had a richness of tone color that gave instruments and voices a real sense of body.

What really floored me, however, was the system’s ability to create a three-dimensional soundstage in front of me. It was like sitting down between a pair of well set up loudspeakers in a room. Despite sitting far off axis in the driver’s seat, the soundstage was perfectly symmetrical, with depth and layering that were extraordinary. Listening to Rutter’s Requiem produced a startling sense of disconnect; the soundstage extended far in front of the windshield, with every instrument perfectly positioned and proportioned. The illusion of pinpoint images, surrounded by an expansive acoustic, was outstanding even by home-audio standards.

The bass was fabulous in many respects: pitch definition, extension, dynamics, and the ability to play loudly without strain. Kick drum was taut, punchy, and tight, with no sense of slowness or overhang. Moreover, the bottom end, reproduced by enormous bass cabinets in the van’s cargo area, blended seamlessly with the midrange and treble drivers located in front of the listener.

The Magic Bus sounded like a high-end home system -- and a very good one at that." 

-- Robert Harley, Editor-in-Chief, the abso!ute sound®, Issue 188, Dec '08.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I didn't call Jon an *******. I did say some of the things he has said in the past were *******-ish. I can seperate some actions from the person.

I don't know Jon, never met him, never heard the van...I can't call someone an ******* if I've never met them.

The only thing, the ONLY thing that has ruffled my feathers is the continued use of "world's best" in his sole use of the forum- promoting his van. I wish he would be active in the forum in other ways than promote events.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

So where is the conclusion to this saga? A lot of posts are just repeating what is obvious or has already been said and it is not likely to produce new details that anyone other than the forum drama people would appreciate. It's over.


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