# Highly's MK4 VW GTi 2011 Comp Build



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Here's the full disclosure build log of my current iteration of the car. This is the build as it sits coming back from 2011 MECA Finals. I'll ask those that are interested in following the thread please refrain from posting until I get the MANY pictures up. I will do my best to include explanatory writeups in the thread as I go, but it will take me a few days to get it all together and posted. If you'd like to follow the thread, please use the Subscribe To This Thread menu item under the Thread Tools drop-down at the top right of the menu bar. I'd just like to try to keep this organized up front so it's easier to follow later. Once the photos are all posted you can feel free to jump in and tell me how crappy the build is and how I must have been on crack to even consider such a stupid build. 

There are just shy of 200 photos total that will be posted to this build log, and they are (nearly) all 800x600 resolution. If you are too impatient to wait the few days it will take me to complete this posting, the PhotoBucket folder is located HERE. The build itself relies on the foundation that was started last season. That build log is located HERE.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Let’s begin with the dash.
I wanted to stretch my legs a bit this season. Last year I built a door/kickpanel/A-pillar build and though I was pleased with the result from the work I put into it, there were areas that didn’t really do it for me. I put a ton of time and work into the doors to quiet them down and they STILL made noise. I was certain that I wanted to go with large midbasses and to put them in the floor. Every floor build I had heard had great midbass and NO NOISES. The downside, of course, was that it meant I had to move the midranges.

So if the kickpanels are used by the midbass, where should the midgange go? I knew that the midrange sets stage width in the car, so I wanted to go as wide with them as I could. I could go deep into the door, but that meant bringing them closer to me, and I knew the stage would come closer as well. I could put them in the A-pillars, but I wanted to refrain from the large wartlike pods that tends to result in. I needed to find a space deep in the vehicle that would allow me plenty of airspace, allow me to place the drivers wide on the stage, and at least as far away from me as the midbasses.
At that point I started eyeing the dashboard with evil looks. I had done some looking around and found that the space above the engine bay contains a cowl. In that cowl lives the ECU and the windshield wiper mechanism, as well as the relay box that opens into the cabin. It extended from the lower edge of the windshield about 8” down, and actually cut back into the cabin in a large “C” shape. The only way to get a feel for things was to dismantle the front end and pull the dashboard.
Here is the dash unit removed from the car:
















Right away you notice the underside of the dash includes the aircon ductwork built into the frame. If I decide to go this route I will have to manufacture all the ductwork from the manifold out. This job just got serious.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Here’s what’s left when the dash is removed:








This gives a nice visual of the cowl and where it extends into the vehicle. This picture has the crash beam removed as well to best show off the area of intrest. This next photo shows the crash beam in place. This beam must remain as it supports the dash, all the electronics down the center, the passenger airbag (which stays) and the steering assembly. 








This also shows the manifold. (center). In order to get air to the outside vents, I will have to remanufacture this manifold. The current routing sends air from here through the dash ducts and out to the outer vents. I have to find another way to get air out there without going over the top of the crash beam since that would put the ductwork where the speakers need to be.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

So here is the manifold removed from the car. I’ve created a cardboard template, and from that an ABS plate flange.








I then glued green floral foam to the flange and shaped it to the intended form. This is an early mockup in place as I decide how best to route airflow. Once the form is completed to my satisfaction, I will fiberglass it in two separate but conjoined plenums.








Here is the plenum from the windshield side. Note the rams’ horns that extend deep under the crash bar. These will allow air to pass to the outside vents. Now look in the center and you will note a diagonal line from the lower left to the upper right. One half (to the left) sends air to the side vents, the other half wraps around to the front for the center vents. Sorting this out for the best possible airflow took quite some time, and building it after I had decided the shape took awhile longer. The neat part about using the floral foam is that you can fiberglass it directly. Once glassed I cleaned the foam out by spoon and removed the residual with the sandblaster. Voila!, a hollow custom duct. Much time was spent getting things to line up exactly with the factory dash opening for a uniform seal. The finished part is smaller, shallower, and flows more air than the factory part.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Here you can see the rubberized aircraft ducting I used. This is insulated and has a smooth center bore so the air doesn’t eddy as it moves through the ducts. This keeps the system quiet and prevents the roaring you had on older vehicles using flexible duct. That stuff was ex-pen-sive, though!

















Here you see the duct lined up with the factory vent hole








And in operation. The tape is just stuck to the dash to show flow. Airflow is keeping it aloft.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Now that the first problem was solved; I had rerouted all the ductwork… it was time for some surgery to the dash. Everything unnecessary was removed:


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

This car is my daily driver, by the way. All of the work that you have seen so far was accomplished in the evenings and on the weekends. I spent about two months driving the car with no dashboard at all as I worked through these stages. The gauge cluster was taped onto the steering column and the dash went in and came out about four dozen times as I adjusted fitment of one thing or checked clearance for another. Getting it all to come together was far from simple, and these pictures make the process look easy. I can't tell you how many hours were spent staring at parts trying to figure out how to make it work in the space I had. This was a challenge.

Along the way you will notice some speakers in the photos. At this time I still had the MS-8 from last year's build in place and I was using it to get a feel for how a center channel system performed with the MS-8, and to start aiming speakers. It didn't take long before the MS-8 was getting in the way, and a 701 went back in. Time to really learn to tune! Gah!

Once the 701 went in the center channel was ignored. I still haven't hooked one up, but that is for next season when I push my way into 2-seat. 

Initial front stage setup was L8/L4se with no tweeter. At this point the L4se are in internally vented mini enclosures to get the aiming down. Aiming was by ear and by TrueRTA. As I tuned and manipulated the drivers I was looking to minimize comb filtering in the passband as my number one goal. Of all the problems that we have in the car, I feel combing and reflection control are the primary issues you need to be aware of during installation. Minimizing the effects of both now will greatly increase the chances for success when it comes time to tune the system!

Masking of the images is not meant to hide the driver locations, but to focus on the area under discussion. None of the speaker placement that you see here is accurate anyway, so don't fret. We'll get there!


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

edit


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

From this point forward the dash is built up using conventional build methods. Focus is on lowering the top edge of the dash as much as possible and trying to stick to shapes that infer the lines the factory used. I’d like the finished part to look like the factory could have built it that way. The end result is convincing enough that most people glanced at it and walked away, never thinking that the entire dash had been rebuilt. Special effort went into keeping the controls in the factory locations and the gauge cluster in place. This is a requirement of the ModEx class and the car is built to compete there. It was by choice that I decided to run it in Extreme.









Here you can see the shape pretty well roughed in and the beginnings of the grille in place. The grille frame is overbuilt of welded ¼” mild steel rod with triangulating trusses.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Once the frame was welded up and ready to go, it was welded to 12 gauge expanded flattened steel mesh. Every single tine of the mesh was welded to the frame wherever they touched. This may seem a little over the top, but it needed to be absolutely quiet. No buzzing no matter what.
Once the welding was done this thing looked like a pretzel. If you have ever tried to weld something like this before, you know that the Mig shrinks the metal as it cools. With every weld it got tighter and tighter. In order to flatten things back out, I had to selectively weld portions of the unsupported mesh to flatten things back out. The result is flat and square in spite of the abuse.
















With that done, the dash was upholstered with 1/8” Volara foam to give it that soft touch.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

That in turn was finished in one piece of Whisper vinyl. THAT was fun, but I managed to nail it on the first try.








And here is a detail photo of where the door and dash meet. A lot of time was spent to mold and shape things into the factory beauty lines. The color match is much better in person than my crappy camera suggests here.








And here is an intermediate pic of the dash in place with the grille covered.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Next up was the hood. This part was shaped from floral foam and fiberglassed, The unusual shape couldn’t be covered in one piece, so a pattern was made and sewn together, then covered.
















Next up is the gauge cluster. The cluster was moved forward slightly and so it needed to be thinned out to give the steering column room to move through its full range. As you can see here the final location has the cluster sunken as far as possible down and into the dash to allow for the cluster to fit under the grille line. 









Here you see the cut, channeled, and smoothed new cluster next to a factory cluster. You can see that it lost a significant amount of depth but retains the factory lines and visual feel.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Modified cluster








Factory part








Now comes the good bit. Where did the speakers end up?
Once again here is the mounting space








Left side midrange goes here:








And the right side mid goes here:








Since they are installed IB, a little hole had to be made to allow the speaker to breathe. Since the plan changed along the way, the L6se was put to duty as a large format midrange. A bigger hole was made to accommodate its ability to move air.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

From that point mounting rings were fashioned, and the midranges mounted through the trim rings directly to the chassis. Here is a shot from inside the cowl through the mounting ring into the cabin. The camera is outside the car.









Here is a photo in the engine bay of the backside of the speaker in the cowl. First the passenger side speaker:









Then the driver’s side. 








Here is a side shot showing how little space is available for the center channel. That is the factory ECU in the cowl space.








And finally a shot of the midrange in place. The speakers fire roughly parallel to the front glass. More specific photos of the speaker location is unnecessary as unless you are going for this exact same build in this exact same car what worked for me probably won’t work for you. What DOES matter is what I found while setting the final angles. Keeping the centerline of the speaker parallel to the glass dramatically reduced reflections and minimized comb filtering significantly. Finishing all surfaces around the speaker with soft foam 1” thick and padding and finishing the A-pillar finished off the acoustic treatment.









And an overhead shot of the dash. Note the front glass never came out of the car. Still a daily driver after all!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Here it is all buttoned up. What goes by in 40 images here is 4.5 months worth of work. Not shown are the many minor modifications along the way, including the harness relocations and structural reinforcements to shore up the areas that were opened up with the Saws-All. I don't know what the end effects are to the structure of the vehicle, and I hope I never find out... but I went out of my way to attempt to maintain as much structural integrity as possible.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

That is all for tonight. Tomorrow night I will post the midbass build in the kick panels. Thanks for your patience with the posts, and I will keep them moving as fast as I can!


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

Dayum Dude! That's commitment right there. The effort really shows.

How does it sound??


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Mirage_Man said:


> Dayum Dude! That's commitment right there. The effort really shows.
> 
> How does it sound??





highly said:


> 2011 MECA World Champion Extreme SQ
> 2011 MECA Oklahoma State Champion Extreme SQ


Probably pretty good. 

Jay


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Mirage_Man said:


> How does it sound??


It's ok.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Best car I've heard yet (and I heard this one the same day I heard Eldridge's). 
Todd's car does so many things I've never heard other car systems do.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

Stellar build!


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Very nice fab work.....keep the pics rolling...thanks


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Lol. I should have known there was no way this was going to work. I was hoping to hold the posts off till the end. I guess the best I can hope for is that I get through one area of the car between posts. Oh well. 

The car sounds OK. You know, OK for a car that outscored Mark E at OK State Finals and took the second highest score home at MECA World Finals. OK in that sort of way. 

The point of posting this is to expose the car for what it is. There are no fancy tricks or crazy modded unobtanium here. The secret to the car is a build designed around the science of the sound. The only box in the car has a sub in it. Everything is as close to IB and free air as I could manage in the space I had. I did everything that I could to optimize things the way the science says you should. That's the magic. The result, well, that speaks for itself. Hear it and you will understand.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

For all the knocks against class D, the HD amps seem to do pretty well. I miss my 900/5. So, I assume you are running the 900/5's bridged on the 4 channels to your mids and tweets, and 500 watts to the L8's?

Nice to see the Dayton sub doing well, and getting some exposure as something other than a "forum boner." Love my 10" HO.

Jay


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

JayinMI said:


> For all the knocks against class D, the HD amps seem to do pretty well. I miss my 900/5. So, I assume you are running the 900/5's bridged on the 4 channels to your mids and tweets, and 500 watts to the L8's?
> 
> Nice to see the Dayton sub doing well, and getting some exposure as something other than a "forum boner." Love my 10" HO.
> 
> Jay


One channel per tweet, two per midrange, the 500 goes to the midbass, and the Dayton gets the 750/1. That leaves me 2 free channels in this configuration. The gains are buried on the tweets, so more there is very unnecessary. At ~2.6KW maximum, the system is drastically overpowered, but with the gains as low as they are now I'd guess we're talking less than 1KW total at maximum output. The system is setup to run 0dB material at competition volumes at 15-20 on the Alpine headunit, so there is a MASSIVE reserve capability. That is literally as low as the gain structure will allow.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

JayinMI said:


> For all the knocks against class D, the HD amps seem to do pretty well.
> 
> Jay


I wrote an email to Todd after finals essentially saying the same. Funny to see the 2 highest scoring competitors at MECA Finals this year use Class D amps and then see all the posts here from people who swear Class D is inferior.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

It sounds ok. You dont even need to get in the car to hear it. its just as loud outside


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> It sounds ok. You dont even need to get in the car to hear it. its just as loud outside


No doubt at all what the judge is listening to in the car. NONE.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

wasn't it Todd's car during a demo that messed up someone getting their RTA on? lol...


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> wasn't it Todd's car during a demo that messed up someone getting their RTA on? lol...


Yeah, but they were pretty close by. They were less than 40 feet away!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

might as well put horns on the outside of the car, then.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

A quick Competitor quick tip.

By now most of us who compete know not to Park near SPl cars when you ae competing in SQ bc their testing and other stuff can be disruptive to the judges.

I would also like to add--Do not park Next to Todd either.
His car seriously is as loud outside as it is inside and can be heard over YOUR own car when listening at judging volumes....even if youre parked across from him....
Damn Loud punk kids...


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

JayinMI said:


> Probably pretty good.
> 
> Jay


Ok, so I guess that was a pretty dumb question. 

I'd love to hear it some day.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

As it stands the plan is to have it at SBN with some very serious updates. The wintertime build will dictate how much of what is planned comes to pass, but if things go as hoped it will be laying it down in a special way in 2-seat.

-T


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

where do i sit?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

You really don't want me to answer that, do you? :surprised:


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## kroky (Nov 27, 2008)

Very nice! keep up the good work!


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

highly said:


> You really don't want me to answer that, do you? :surprised:


haha it was a joke. but in all seriousness, is that center pocket designed to be as a seat?  looks uncomfortable. 

but awesome work bro. i wish you lived closer so i could hire you to consult in my build haha.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Kick Panels
The kick build was pretty straightforward. L8s in the kick panels, vented to atmosphere. First the L8s were placed in the area, then the sawzall came out and moved the offending metal. Here we have a couple of pics of the placement of the drivers in relative space. In the first pic you can clearly see where the rails were opened out to allow the L8 to breathe. Care was taken to reach ¾ of the SD of the driver so that it was assured that the cone was free to move without creating excessive restriction due to air mass.
















Once the location was solidified, molds were made and mounting adapters fashioned. Here you can see a picture of one of the mounting adapters. They were designed to avoid contact with the floorpan itself, attaching entirely to the structure of the car. By avoiding contact with the floorpan it reduces the ability of the driver to transfer significant vibration to the large, flat membrane underfoot. The result is significantly less bone conduction without additional mass loading of the floor.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

And here we see the actual part supporting the vehicle. Believe it or not, I am fine either way. I had one judge mention that he was certain that off-camera there was a jackstand supporting the vehicle. No problem. Either way, the results in-car speak for themselves. Solid midbass without the annoying rattles or resonance.








Here we have the midbass in its mounted location with the factory floor damping in place. 








With the midbasses mounted, it’s time to let them breathe. Here we have the outer floor in front of the kick area. Passenger side photo, driver’s side is the same. Note the brake disk in the front corner of the photo for location on the car.








2.5” hole saw comes out and goes to work


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Three holes drilled and opened up with the Sawzall








Expanded mesh covers the opening and gets finished up in polyurethane adhesive to seal the metal from the elements. 








This all gets overlayed by the factory fender liner. I have not had any issues with water ingress and have been through a few puddles as deep as the holes. I don’t think I’d be fjording a lake any time soon, though. The vent empties into the primary frame rails of the car that run the length of the vehicle. I’d guess that adds 1.5-2 cubes of airspace but also probably acts as a tuned pipe back there. The large opening to atmosphere prevents it from being excited, but without venting I would expect some resonance from the cavity.
Ready to be buttoned up!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Back inside the car, the face of the driver got a molded cage of expanded mesh. No pictures, but it’s just an intermediate grille to protect the drivers from poorly placed feet. Then comes the outer beauty trim. The trim is made as shown. A piece of tubing was used to mold the edge so that the one part could be covered in both vinyl and carpet and look like two parts. 
















Then the grille that bolts in from the back


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

And the finished product. Fits tight and flush and is held in by tension in the body molding and two screws into the chassis.
















Of course now the floor mats no longer fit, so I made up a template and cut a new set from MLV. The originals use buttons to hold them down, so a hammer and a socket were used to punch holes in the MLV for the factory buttons. The MLV was carpeted and Voila! New floor mats!


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Nice Todd! As I've said before, I like it when a man isn't afraid to cut some stuff up!! 

Great install and great results!!


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Nice!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Amp Rack
So now we’ve gotten the front stage basically out of the way. I ran the car like this for most of the season; the front stage in and a full back seat with last year’s sub setup. The amps were the Genesis Profiles and tucked away in their special place in the roof. The next phase of the car was to be the installation of the JL HD amplifiers. In order to install the amps, new power cabling would have to be run, and I would have to find a place for those amps to be installed. Along with the amplifiers I had obtained a Rane RPM88 that I sent off to be converted to 12v. That was in late March. I still haven’t seen it yet. So while I waited for the Rane to get completed, I pondered what I was going to do for install. Show after show the car was sounding better, and people were walking by not paying it any attention at all. I needed to do something with the install that would catch people’s attention long enough to notice that something had been DONE to the car! The dash was so stealth that nobody thought twice about it. Though that was a real compliment, it wasn’t achieving the intended goal of getting people interested in the car, the products in the car, and listening to those products IN the car!
Along the way I had to also decide how far I was willing to go. Did I want to keep the utilitarian functionality of a perpetually unused back seat, or was I willing to take one more step towards a stereo on wheels vice a daily with a stereo in it. The roads out here are HELL on my back (I crushed two vertebra in my spine on a failed jump snowboarding a few years back, and though it is healed it isn’t the same…) at at 40 I was starting to get weary of having my butt kicked by the lowered suspension on the car. The decision was made to go ahead with a back seat build, removing the back seat, installing the amps where the back seat was, adding some pizzazz to the car, and dropping it on a full FBSS air ride setup. A plan was penned.
The back half of the car was gutted and a two part cage was welded of 12 gauge 1x1” and .5x.5 mild steel. The cage bolts together to form one piece and then bolts to the car through 6 RivNuts through the chassis. All electronics, cabling, and the skin is bolted directly to the cage. The air ride storage tank is installed as a focal point in the center of the cage and will be used for primary air storage once the air suspension is installed (hopefully early next month).


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

I don’t seem to have any bare pictures of the cage handy, but most if it will be shown in the pictures that follow.
Here is the base frame with the initial parts cut to shape. The car isn’t square in any dimension due to a previous accident, so once I had the cage as close to square as I could manage in the space it was used as the primary reference for the build. Cardboard was used along with an offset marking wheel made from a 2” diameter circle of aluminum with a hole in the middle. Put a pencil in the center hole and roll it along the surface to be matched. The pencil traces a parallel to the edge directly onto the cardboard as you go. Cut out the cardboard in sections and hot glue or tape them together to create the template. 










Here is the front face and the bridge to the center console









Starting to define the shape of the center section


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Transferring the cutout to the top portion



















Fleshing out the sub amp walls


















And laying out the amp locations


















Starting to define the amp’s medallion trim


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

And continuing the work back into the trunk sidewalls

















Here is a pretty good shot of the front half of the cage.









How I applied a full roundover to the edge. The template was taped on with double stick carpet tape









Then rough cut with a jigsaw and cleaned up with a flush trim bit on the router.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Flip that over and run the roundover bit using the template as a guide. The same process was used for each edge of the parts.









The parts laid out 









And reassembled in the car to test fit.









More work on the amp transition. I have to say that I really like the way that this part ties the amp into the center console. It goes a long way towards making the parts integrate better into the vehicle. It was an inspiration on-the-spot as you will note it isn’t part of the original concept drawing.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Here you can see the spectrum analyzer installed just above the amp itself. This draws audio signals from the Alpine AI-Net cable so that, no matter the input, it will show the audio spectrum analysis. AI-Net transmits even if your primary source is over optical cable and is always full range audio  400 blue LEDs dance to the music grabbing the attention of passerby.

















And finally a wide shot of the work. Looking good!









Focus then moves to the back to allow the sub, located under the false floor, to breathe.

























That accomplished, it’s time to start covering things in more Whisper vinyl.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

With everything covered, it’s on to lighting. Blue and red LEDs were employed along the edge of the plexiglass, and control is handled by a switch and a PWM dimmer module enabling the display to be adjusted to the lighting conditions. 

























The amp illumination done, on to the medallion. Two layer of 1/8” plexiglass were illuminated and overlayed to create the red/blue lighting effect. If you;ve ever played with the LED light strips you probably have a feel how tight a fit that is. The stud attached to the bottom of the JL logo screws into the bridge through the multiple layers of vinyl, MDF, and plexiglass and is the key that holds the front part of the rach together. Remove that and the rack starts coming apart like a puzzle.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Todd,

Where did you get the JL logo. I need one...

Charles

BTW - As I said in a previous post NICE!!! I wish I had made finals just to listen to the car.


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

looks like the logo on the back of a w6


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

The logos are direct from JL Audio; a local dealer should be able to get you as many as you need!


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

One hell of an install.

Any plans, by chance, to redo the front doors so that there are no unused speaker grills?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Knobby Digital said:


> One hell of an install.
> 
> Any plans, by chance, to redo the front doors so that there are no unused speaker grills?


Thanks for the kudos!
Unfortunately I don't think there is ample justification to remake the entire front door panel in order to flush out the speaker grilles. I'd have to start over with new door panels as the carbon kevlar inserts are now permanently attached to the door skin. The panel itself is three parts; the upper window molding, the door panel itself, and the armrest insert. Once disassembled those parts would never fit back together properly, and the thermoformed plastic that they are made of do not take adhesives. The first flex pops the glue off, and I've tried everything but the high dollar 3M bumper adhesive. Finally, the vinyl stretch would be pretty high on my list of things I'd rather not do due to the compound curves in the corners. In order to do it right I may as well create completely new door panels from scratch, and there just isn't a benefit to that. 

In the end I don't think the work required justifies the time and money to make it happen. There are more important concerns in my future!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

So now it’s time to get some wiring in. First up is the shadowbox that frames the power distribution to the amplifiers. I spent a lot of time making a custom set of power distribution blocks earlier in the season and showing them off was an intention of the install. Left and right are mirror images of each other, and the positive side is fitted with fuses there the ground side bridges the fuse gaps with copper buss bars. The rear distro system matches the battery distro, so four complete sets were made. Why go to all the trouble? I hate set-screws for clamping battery connections and wanted something creative. 

Here’s the method I used to create the surrounds for the shadowbox. It’s pretty self explanatory and a dead easy way of creating the shapes with parallel walls and a minimum of finishing time. I suppose I could have done it with layers of MDF routed to a pattern, but this is much more durable.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

The surround bolts to the plexiglass from underneath as do the distro bars. The wires are all crimped and soldered to terminals and then covered with techflex, shrink, etc. ) 0-AWG in and three 4 AWG out, 60A fuses for each HD amp (they are not fused internally). The entire assembly bolts down to a shelf that is in turn welded to the cage. Wiring is all attached to the cage, and I can pull the cage out with the wiring attached as the primary power and ground wires terminate in the large AMP/Anderson PowerPole connectors (the kind normally used on external chargers). 










































































Has to be ONE shot with a finger near the lens...!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Pretty self explanatory. 

Here we have the finishing of the power distribution blocks. Drilled, tapped, sanded and polished. I enlisted the help of my good friend Hugh to get these finished; he spent a full day sanding all of the parts to 600 grit and I finish polished them. They aren’t as liquid-metal finished as I’d like, but they are more than adequate for now. Need some more time with some white rouge and the soft buffing wheel, but I had a show coming up (state Finals) and needed to get them IN THE CAR.


Raw parts on top of the PowerPoint concept drawing










Drilling and tapping


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Mocking them up as an assembly for the first time


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Prepped and ready for sanding. The colored marks were to help me keep the parts straight so I made the right sized holes in the right pieces and correctly tapped them. It’s easy to get lost on mindless tasks like this and there was no room for error.











After some time on the buffer. The notch is on the positive power bars to help clear the nonstandard oversized cases of the fuses. The parts and their offsets were designed from the TripLite Fuse specs, but I didn’t use TripLite fuses so the fuses would not reach the bolt squarely. It figures. Ran a ¼” bullnose down it with the milling machine and it’s all better.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

The bottom sides have an additional hole that goes ¾ of the way through each part then blind tapped. Held in place by countersunk machine screws. Works great and they are nice and tight.




















Hmm, these are gonna turn out nice!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

So now that the power distribution is in place, it is time to wire up the battery and get power back to the amplifiers. I’ll need to replace the 4-AWG that was ample for the Genesis Profiles with something with a bit more copper. 0-AWG gets run all the way back to handle the task. Along with that it seems about time for a battery upgrade, so the little Optima comes out and an Exide 200AH AGM Group 31 goes in. Lest’s see how that goes, shall we?


Here is the old Optima. Note the factory fuse box still sitting atop the battery. 
That’s gotta go. 



















Here we can see the path for the old 4-AWG. The new 0-AWG will follow the same path. Through a factory tray, into the cowl area.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

And from there in through the plastic relay tray into the vehicle. VW left us a nice blank grommet in place, so punch a hole and make it happen.




















And the wiring all buttoned up in the factory tray. Nice. 



















Now for some upgrades. The factory fuse block gets extended and temporarily relocated to the side of the battery. These should NOT require maintenance as they shouldn’t blow unless there is a serious problem. Nevertheless they will be relocated later to allow direct tool-free access for verification purposes.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Now we’re talking. Bare minimum.











Now we yank that cute little Optima out and prepare for some serious juice. Battery tray of welded mild steel is fashioned and made to bolt into the factory locations.











And here is where it bolts down to


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

he Big Compare-o. Yeah, that’s a monster.



















Everything gets bolted into place and verified. Now it’s time to make the battery plate that will hold the distribution. But wait, what’s this?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Planning FAIL! I forgot to account for the height to the plate that goes between the battery and the buss bar, and the result is less than stellar. Now I have to figure out how to dig myself out of this hole, and quick! I’ve got Finals coming up tomorrow, and I have no power to my stereo system. Everything has been redesigned around these things working as planned! Where’s that stinking thinking cap …

I see two ways out. I can either cut down the body of the buss bar on the mill leaving me space to access the threads and ruining the intent, or I can take the creative way out. Of course, the creative way is more work and that takes time… and I am out of time. Quick, to the BatCave! (apologies to those of you that didn’t grow up with Adam West and Burt Ward as the Dynamic Duo. They are and will always be Batman and Robin. )

What do we have here? A hunk of 6061 T6 aluminum rod?












Ut oh… he’s getting’ serious now!











A bellybutton plug? WTF?!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Yeah, still not getting it, man. Gonna have to do better than that.



















This supposed to mean something to me, because…uh…it doesn’t. 











Those don’t seem to have anything in common, Todd. Get to the point, brother.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

OK, the point. The problem, if you will remember, is that we can’t reach the threads. Well, if you make the hole in the buss bar bigger and make a T-nut, you can not only reach the threads and hold down the buss bar but you can also finish off the installation without the use of a nut!




















The square holes are broached and fit a ¼ drive ratchet for easy removal and installation. Simple, elegant, and timely.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Now to finishing this end of things off. A base plate was made up with a self-clamping tower mount for the plexiglass cover. The clamp mount is lined with scotchguarded felt so the plex just slides in and out. In the future I will mill out the center of the “d” and use the cavity to store spare fuses and the tools required to change them, and with the plex in place it will act like a cover for the fuses and tools. 

The copper bus bar on the positive side goes to the starter. The two unused terminals will go to the air ride compressor when it gets installed.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Lol. I love the way my build threads start out with all sorts of responses and people chiming in and then quickly devolve into crickets and nature sounds as I get further along. I'm not sure why that happens, but it makes me laugh for some strange reason. At any rate, we're approaching the end of the build log for this season...a couple dozen more pics to go of everything coming together on the amp rack and we're on our way. 

There are a lot of new things that I will be bringing in for next season... the continuation of the build will start Sunday after the OKC Get Together. Biiig plans for next season, but I will be going quiet on here for awhile. I like showing what is happening with the car, but I don't want to spoil the listener's experience by showing it all up front. That had some negative impact last year as people have the tendency - in spite of themselves - to prejudge the way a car will perform based on what they know about the installation. It's human nature and I cannot fault anyone that. I can control what is known, however, and it's been made clear that doing so is in my best interest. 

I will be back to show the visual aspects of the build as it progresses, though. The speaker locations will remain visibly hidden and I won't spend much time talking about that unless you get the chance to demo the car. Then, once you have heard it, I will be more than happy to discuss it with you. Anyone who heard my car this season knows this to be the case... I am not looking to hide the facts from anyone. I only want you to have the opportunity to hear it first, then judge for yourself how well it works in practice. Sometimes it is possible for the parts to come together into a greater whole.

And sometimes it fails in spite of your best efforts 

-T


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks for all the info and pics. It's one of a kind for sure. And sounds incredible.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

schmiddr2 said:


> Thanks for all the info and pics. It's one of a kind for sure. And sounds incredible.


Thank you!
I suspect you demoed it at Finals?


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Yup. I talked to you about building forms out of floral foam and how to remove the foam. Great info and demo. Thanks


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

schmiddr2 said:


> Yup. I talked to you about building forms out of floral foam and how to remove the foam. Great info and demo. Thanks


I remember now. Thanks... I am terrible at trying to piece together a face, a name, and a screen-name. 

Yeah, the floral foam is cool stuff. There are two types; the hard scratchy stuff and the softer grainy stuff. The grainy stuff doesn't get eaten by the fiberglass so you can glass it directly then scoop it out. The other scratchy stuff that looks like rigid green open cell foam will dissolve on contact. Styrene foam=bad.

I'm glad you enjoyed the demo and thanks for the comments!


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Its ok....













To be quiet honest, for a guy who is a "weekend warrior" and a diy'er its absoluetly AMAZING!!! The level of detail really isnt translated 100% in the pics and its sounds pretty good. The system actually evokes emotion, REALLY!! You can feel the emotion in the singers, musicians, engineers, all of them. Its about as good as I have ever heard in a car and its a real treat to listen to.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

chefhow said:


> Its ok....


You should know better than to make her mad, Chef. I'll have to park next to you next year at Finals and see if we can improve your SPL scores during SQ judging


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

schmiddr2 said:


> Yup. I talked to you about building forms out of floral foam and how to remove the foam. Great info and demo. Thanks


Wish I had been part of that convo.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Wish I had been part of that convo.


Tell you what, Erin... I've got some foam lying around from the install, so I'll do a demo thread just for you and post it up. Clear up any fuzziness about the process. Sound good?

Anything you'd like made for the demo? (No, fiberglass B00B13s are out of the question. Pick something else.)


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Sweet! I'd be interested in how you can use it to make a mold of a cavity or body. For instance, my pillars. Is it possible to make an interior mold or only use it for an exterior mold?
In other words: concave or convex?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Sweet! I'd be interested in how you can use it to make a mold of a cavity or body. For instance, my pillars. Is it possible to make an interior mold or only use it for an exterior mold?


Alas, I have only found it immediately useful to make a lost buck. Say you need to make a tube shape that snakes around something or that goes from round to flat to round again. You don't want to make multiple parts - you want it to be seamless. This is the perfect way to do it. Carve the part in foam, test fit it, then glass it up. Then blow the foam out the middle and you have a custom fiberglass tube. Shape it into your perfect horn waveguide, glass it, then dig the foam out. Sand it smooth and off you go. It holds up to compression forces as well, so it can be used to make one-off composite parts like carbon fiber intakes or brake ducting with the help of a vacuum bag. 

I've never had any luck molding something like a door interior or small cavity yet. I always end up with a huge mess. I haven't managed to solve that problem yet. Well I have, but the result makes the car as loud on the outside as it is on the inside...


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Not much left but some lighting and buttoning it all up.

Since I built the cage as a modular unit, a couple of bolts and an electrical connection and he’s out of the car. This greatly facilitates working on the assembly, so it came out to sort out the lighting. Some of these pics are out of order in the build process, but you should still be able to see how it all goes together. It just seemed to make more sense putting them together this way.
Here’s the completed shadowbox ready for the distribution system. Once everything was in and lined up, I drilled holes through the side for the wires to pass. I made them oversized and completely upholstered them so that the wire is held snugly by the material. It appears to go through a tight-fitting hole, but is actually just self-centering in the gap.











Here is the frame traced into the top and the T-nuts that the amp mounts to. The amps are electrically isolated, and the distro system grounds back at the battery. The same is true for all audio electronics including the processor and headunit, eliminating the possibility of a ground loop. The cage itself is covered in a thin layer of felt to act as a vibration gasket, keeping the interface quiet as the sub hits.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Exposed view showing distro and lighting


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

ested and verified, then back in the car and buttoned down.











Here’s what I will be doing when I have more time. The intent is to fade from the front center where it’s blue to the rear where it’s red. Looking down a few pics to where the sub amp bridge is installed with the JL logo, you can see how that would flow from the front to the back.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Here you see the back half out exposing the sub. Next season I will be installing a single Fi 18” IB sub in the tire well, true IB. It will go in cone down and the bottom of the tire well cut out. It will be protected from the elements externally. Then a full size spare tire and wheel will fit on a shelf suspended over the magnet. The floor has been raised to allow a cutout that exposes the spare and by looking down through the spare, the sub. That’s why the floor is so high in the back of the car… room for the Super Sub Sammich


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Here are the parting shots of the rack. Not shown are the plexiglass covers that cover the distro or the as-yet-unfinished plexiglass cover that goes over the sub amp. Also yet to be installed are the digital current and temperature displays, one for each amplifier. Add to that the completion of the spectrum analyzer, it’s tinted window cover, and a number of other small things that amount to a lot of work. The car wasn’t ‘finished’ when it went to Nashville, it was just done enough that I wasn’t embarrassed to show it. There is much left to do before SBN in March!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

highly said:


> Alas, I have only found it immediately useful to make a lost buck. Say you need to make a tube shape that snakes around something or that goes from round to flat to round again. You don't want to make multiple parts - you want it to be seamless. This is the perfect way to do it. Carve the part in foam, test fit it, then glass it up. Then blow the foam out the middle and you have a custom fiberglass tube. Shape it into your perfect horn waveguide, glass it, then dig the foam out. Sand it smooth and off you go. It holds up to compression forces as well, so it can be used to make one-off composite parts like carbon fiber intakes or brake ducting with the help of a vacuum bag.
> 
> I've never had any luck molding something like a door interior or small cavity yet. I always end up with a huge mess. I haven't managed to solve that problem yet. Well I have, but the result makes the car as loud on the outside as it is on the inside...



Thanks for the info. I may still try this on a future build of the pillars to get desired shape. Might be able to simply lay up a block of foam and glass it out how I'd like, then scrape/sand it all down from the inside and get what I need out of it. Might be easier than stretching cloth over a pillar and ring.


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## FbodyAudio (Nov 26, 2008)

Awesome, it's rare to see this level of attention to detail in a build. I love the home made distro and buss bars.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Parting shots from Erin's album from Finals. The only ones I have that don't look like they were shot from a cell phone. Time for a new camera, Todd!

Thanks Erin!



















and a few pics that were shot at Finals by a 'professional photographer and model'. Sorry, but I didn't have any input to these other than 'yeah, the car is free...knock yourself out!'. Maybe next time I will have input, but I was busy working on a Team car so oversight of the ...model... took last place in my list of priorities.





























These are the very few pics that weren't blurry.  Also note that MECA is Family Friendly, and though a scantily clad model may make you yearn to practice _starting _a family, it isn't sanctioned by the constabulary.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

highly said:


> I remember now. Thanks... I am terrible at trying to piece together a face, a name, and a screen-name.
> 
> Yeah, the floral foam is cool stuff. There are two types; the hard scratchy stuff and the softer grainy stuff. The grainy stuff doesn't get eaten by the fiberglass so you can glass it directly then scoop it out. The other scratchy stuff that looks like rigid green open cell foam will dissolve on contact. Styrene foam=bad.
> 
> I'm glad you enjoyed the demo and thanks for the comments!


you could also pour acetone or gasoline on it and it will dissolve the foam. Mineral spirits make work as well


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Video of the Spectrum Analyzer at work on the bench. Soon to be operational in the car 

Spectrum Analyzer

Link may or may not work... I can't verify it from here.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> you could also pour acetone or gasoline on it and it will dissolve the foam. Mineral spirits make work as well


Yes, but the acetone dissolves it much more slowly than it dissolves Styrene and can soften the fiberglass. I actually blew mine out with my sandblasing cabinet but I know most people don't have one lying around. Taking it down to the carwash with a mask and flippers (flippers optional) would work as the foam would be blasted out by the High Pressure Wash. Avoid the Foamy Brush, though! </greenhands at Finals>


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

But the foamy brush is just too cool


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

After hitting Nashville and dropping things off at the room I went In Search Of a place to wash the car. I found one eventually, got change, and got to work washing the car. Turn the knob to Foamy Brush, drop in the coins, and get to work. Just my luck, the bright green foam is coming out both ends of the brush, so my hand goes around the handle to keep most of it coming out the far end, and off to work I go (Hi ho, hi ho...). 

Sometime later the car is washed and I go to pull it forward. I look down and my hands have been stained bright green from the foam. Not like gently green or slightly green...VERY green. And they stayed shades of green all weekend. 

Avoid the Foamy Brush!

-T


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## funkalicious (Oct 8, 2007)

When you go IB with the 18" sub do you have any concerns about sound transmission outside of the vehicle since it is a daily driver? Fantastic build!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

It's too late to worry about what other people listen to when they are driving. 

Seriously, though. 90% of my driving is on the highway. As a daily driver, it takes me 30 minutes to work and back. I don't blast it as I drive around on the way to the highway and back. I turn it up a little on the highway, but I'm not really concerned about that. Finally, the sub will have a trapdoor that opens to allow full IB operation and closes to an aperiodic setup. I also hope to make some baffling (as much as is possible) for the midranges and midbases to tame it down a bit. The car isn't really as loud outside as it is inside; I tend to demo some tracks pretty loud. The Improvisation track from the Focal #1 disk, for instance, is demoed at realistic volumes. Nobody's car is quiet demoing that track at realistic volumes. The same with the live tracks I play... they should feel as big and loud as if you were at the concert.

I don't play music that loud when I am driving.

So yeah, there is a little bit of concern and I will take some precautions to mute it a bit, bit I'm not a teenager and an IB sub isn't an SPL monster. It just isn't.

-T


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## funkalicious (Oct 8, 2007)

Gotcha. I asked because hopefully I'll be doing an AP sub enclosure vented to outside the vehicle at the beginning of next year. One of my biggest pet peeves is a boomer pulling up next to me at a stoplight with their windows down and the bass booming. That's not the person I want to emulate .


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

does this feature come standard?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Don't honestly know what package she comes with


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

Okay, Highly got to pick your brains on this, your front stage is totally running free air, AP, or did you build enclosures? I guess I probably should have showed up at finals.. Definitely an interesting setup..


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

AccordUno said:


> Okay, Highly got to pick your brains on this, your front stage is totally running free air, AP, or did you build enclosures? I guess I probably should have showed up at finals.. Definitely an interesting setup..


No need to pick anything. The pictures show you exactly what is going on. Nothing but the outside world behind those drivers. No damping, no stuffing, no fabric or foam. Just air; free free air.


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

Ok. How's your midbass and midrange?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

AccordUno said:


> Ok. How's your midbass and midrange?


The midbass is nice but the vocals suck.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

No, in all seriousness... You have to hear it to believe it. I could tell you it's good, and that the midrange is transparent. Erin, while listening, turned to me and said 'In one word...effortless'. There simply is no way to convey what the car really sounds like or how lifelike it can be. It isn't perfect yet, but it IS very, very nice. Clearly the judges agreed. 

The front stage lacks the coloration of the boxes that you normally have to correct for with EQ. That also means that the drivers lack the acoustic suspension that the box would provide. The car will get up and go...it gets as loud as I would ever listen to it... but the power handling of the drivers is diminished by the lack of help from a box. That's just a fact you can't escape. You must choose your evil; boxes and huge power handling capabilities, or no boxes and a bit of restraint.

-Todd


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

Sounds like it's one of those must be heard to appreciate. I'm in the group of loud but clear and precise, but at the same time, I'm biased to boxes at the moment (haven't warmed up to cutting beyond internal metal voids). Have wanted to tinker with AP, but I always come back to the no external cutting. This might change with my truck, if I can summon the courage..


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

AccordUno said:


> Sounds like it's one of those must be heard to appreciate. I'm in the group of loud but clear and precise, but at the same time, I'm biased to boxes at the moment (haven't warmed up to cutting beyond internal metal voids). Have wanted to tinker with AP, but I always come back to the no external cutting. This might change with my truck, if I can summon the courage..


If by loud you mean for competiton purposes, then this fits the bill. If on the other hand you mean Death Metal Megalomaniacs' newest album played at 130dB with the windows down... NOT the purpose of a build like this. This is a "maximum personal effort to get as many points out of a judge's pocket onto a scoresheet in a competitive environment" build. Confusing the two will end in disappointment. This car straddles the line between what someone would want in their own car and what is bordering on the improbable sonically speaking. The parameters for operation were clearly predefined, and every effort was made to exceed my own comfort zone in as many areas as possible. This is what happens when you give up the idea of being uncomfortable about changing something for the sound and give in to the 'whatever it takes' mentality. When you listen to the car, that becomes immediately apparent.

Goosebumps = good.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Photobucket complained that I had gone through 8 GB of my monthly 10GB free bandwidth in three days, so I upgraded the account. Click all you want, I bought more!


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

highly said:


> Photobucket complained that I had gone through 8 GB of my monthly 10GB free bandwidth in three days, so I upgraded the account. Click all you want, I bought more!


just use imageshack.us it's how i host all my photos. you can have an account like photo bucket but i never made an account i just host and paste.


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

Todd, no, I'm not shooting for a Airplane taking off noisy. I'm shooting for a car that is very dynamic and has enough power on demand. How I'm going to approach this in a Nissan Titan, not sure at the moment without going all out.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

AccordUno said:


> Todd, no, I'm not shooting for a Airplane taking off noisy. I'm shooting for a car that is very dynamic and has enough power on demand. How I'm going to approach this in a Nissan Titan, not sure at the moment without going all out.


In that case an IB or AP system should be in your list of considerations. I found it much easier to deal with cutting a large enough hole to make breathing acceptable than designing enclosures optimized to a listening environment, and the end result is definitely dynamic (quick transient response and a sense of immediacy in the music).

-T


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## blackknight87 (Jul 11, 2011)

Very cool build.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

blackknight87 said:


> Very cool build.


Thanks! I try...


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

WOW! It took me about 1 1/2 hours to read all of this. WOW!


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

Niebur3 said:


> WOW! It took me about 1 1/2 hours to read all of this. WOW!


Wow you read slow. LOL. Took me about 20min.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

BowDown said:


> Wow you read slow. LOL. Took me about 20min.


Okay, maybe it just seemed that long...lol. Besides, I read everything multiple times and got interrupted a bunch...lol.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> Okay, maybe it just seemed that long...lol. Besides, I read everything multiple times and got interrupted a bunch...lol.


If there are any areas of the build that need clarification just let me know. It was written out in a Word doc in stream-of-consciousness fashion so there's no telling what I forgot to mention or include. It's unlikely that I managed to sum up 9 months of work into a few pages of text and not miss something!


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Cliff Notes for the reading impaired or those with short attention spans, like me on some days...

Todd cut the holy bejezus out of his firewall/dash area
mounted some speakers there.
They play in True free air
dash part were reconstructed and dash looks very OEM despite mods
Midbass is in Kick panel
It is mounted in True Free air
Car is dynamic and lively to listen to
alpine Head unit and H701 for processing
JL amps
Todd have no "professional" car audio experience or background
to say Todd pick things up quickly is a drastic and retarded understatement


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> Todd have no "professional" car audio experience or background
> to say Todd pick things up quickly is a drastic and retarded understatement


Lol, thanks Mic. 

In reality I spent about a year and a half reading ancient threads on this forum before I started the FIRST build of this car (as you see it in the previous build thread). You are right that I don't have any professional experience, and this is in every way a real DIY build, but in my mind this car is 4-5 years in the making. The last build(s) was(were) an experiment to see how the things I read here work IRL. This build was about putting it all into practice. 

I just got lucky that I managed to make it work  Otherwise I'd have the first Swiss VW with a really awful stereo in it.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> Cliff Notes for the reading impaired or those with short attention spans, like me on some days...
> 
> Todd <snip>
> is <snip>
> drastic and retarded <snip>


*Fixed!*
For those with really, really short attention spans...


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

I think that it is about this time that most people move to another "newer" car for an additional challenge? Cant imagine after this particular accomplishment; what is next?


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## CustomAddictions (Oct 13, 2011)

Very nice build. What else is there to do on it ?


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## BakedCookies (Sep 6, 2011)

wow, this is a very impressive build. Love the lighting


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Lorin said:


> I think that it is about this time that most people move to another "newer" car for an additional challenge? Cant imagine after this particular accomplishment; what is next?


That's easy.
Two seats. Two judges. 
Next season, it's on.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

highly said:


> Lol, thanks Mic.
> 
> In reality I spent about a year and a half reading ancient threads on this forum before I started the FIRST build of this car (as you see it in the previous build thread). You are right that I don't have any professional experience, and this is in every way a real DIY build, but in my mind this car is 4-5 years in the making. The last build(s) was(were) an experiment to see how the things I read here work IRL. This build was about putting it all into practice.
> 
> I just got lucky that I managed to make it work  Otherwise I'd have the first Swiss VW with a really awful stereo in it.


Thanks for posting this. I've been thinking about using this exact amp setup for a while, along with the same section of the dash that you did for the L6SE's. Also sounds like I'm doing exactly what you did, a couple years of research, a first build to test myself out and learn the ropes, and then after my current build is done going back for a full out build. 

I have a few questions if you have the patience for them, some of them are more basic, others are more complicated.

1 - First off, the area that you used for the L6SE's, I noticed on your car, it vents directly into the engine bay under the hood. In mine, I have the same little area you used, but mines closed off from the outside with only a 2"x10" hole vented to the outside. So imagine your cowl, with a metal wall dividing the inside from the outside, where the wipers are mounted. I'm sure I'll need to cut more of that wall out, but my question is, did you have any resonance problems with that area, or were you able to mount it directly without problems. It seems on mine, with it being more of a tube, any problems you had would be magnified in mine. Although, its still the best place to mount the mid's in my car. 

2 - On your L8's, are the molds just very thick fiberglass, or was there something else involved? I know in my current build, I was worried about the floor resonating (after reading a previous post of yours, and a few others). I ended up using fiberglass, for the shell, and reinforced it with concrete/resin with bb's added for mass loading. I was mostly wondering after seeing the car on top of the enclosure, as I am pretty sure mine could hold my car as well.

3 - My original plan was to use some L4SE's, but then again, I think I have room for L6SE's, just hadnt thought about it before. I'd love to hear about where your crossing your speakers at (but I completely understand if that info is secret). I'm seriously considering the 6's instead of the 4's since it just makes more sense, as I could get away with lower crossovers without worrying about pushing them too hard.

Thanks again.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks for posting this. I've been thinking about using this exact amp setup for a while, along with the same section of the dash that you did for the L6SE's. Also sounds like I'm doing exactly what you did, a couple years of research, a first build to test myself out and learn the ropes, and then after my current build is done going back for a full out build.
> 
> I have a few questions if you have the patience for them, some of them are more basic, others are more complicated.
> 
> ...


1- No resonance problems between 200 and ~5K. There is a layer of foam but that is absorbtive and not mass loading/damping. I made sure to carefully pack the end of the 'tube' that is part of the structure with clay to avoid creating a new woodwind instrument, but other than the mounting adapter (like in the kicks) nothing was done there. I hate messy arsed butyl and it doesn't go down unless it is proven necessary.

2- Heavy fiberglass damped with aquarium rocks in Bondo milkshake. May as well be concrete. BBs are expensive. LOL
. Funny story... I pulled them out of the car to drive to work and didn't place them far enough away from the 'parking spot' in the shop. Drove home that afternoon and ran square the f*&( over one. Left a 3' scrape on the shop floor and was wedged under the chassis. Got the car off of it and it was unscathed but for the scratchmark. Pulled the car back, drove over it again and took the picture. Pulled the car off and took the picture of the ring next to the car. Then I emailed the team with 'you won't believe this, but...'.

3 - Installed free air you WILL push them hard. As mentioned, 200ish to around 5K. The tweeters each use different xovers and slopes to help manage stage width, but that's a different story and unrelated to this discussion. You are on your own there  6s over 4s is a tradeoff. All depends on what you are optimizing for and how much that 'tube' is going to effect your response. If it is smaller than about 3/4 of the Sd of the driver it will have some effect. You basically have to install to find out how much. Either it works or it requires work. <shrugs> Too many variables for my little brain to ponder mathematically.


Sorry if the response is more lame than usual for me. I am tired and have pushed through more than 50!!! PMs and quite a few emails today answering questions about the car. I am trying to be as transparent as possible on this build, but it is getting crazy. I hope it slows down a little 

Thanks for all the interest, though! I'm trying to keep up!
-T


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Todd when are you going to post the REAL build pics?
There is so much more going on behind every panel in that dash, its scary...

I still havent figured out how you did a 6"Mid Tweet Mid for the Left ,right and Center speaker---you should post pics of that

Oh and the sub enclosure thats mounted over the transmission tunnel that vents through each side vent...that was cool too...yet no pics....


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Todd, your attention to detail and the science of sound is amazing. 

I really enjoyed getting to hear your car over the summer and I'm sure at this point it's even better. Thanks again for the demo and tips for my car. You're a true asset to the DIYMA community.

Great build log.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

highly said:


> 1- No resonance problems between 200 and ~5K. There is a layer of foam but that is absorbtive and not mass loading/damping. I made sure to carefully pack the end of the 'tube' that is part of the structure with clay to avoid creating a new woodwind instrument, but other than the mounting adapter (like in the kicks) nothing was done there. I hate messy arsed butyl and it doesn't go down unless it is proven necessary.
> 
> Sounds good, sounds like I just need to make sure its open enough, and then I can play with tones to check mine for resonance.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply, it definately helps. If it wasnt for threads like this, I wouldnt be where I am now with my build. I did forget to ask one more question, where did you source the aircraft tubing that you used for the HVAC. Being that my car is also a DD, quieting down the HVAC is one of my big priorities. The a/c gets used a lot, and gets annoying having to turn up the stereo over the air when its 110 out. Thanks again.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

highly said:


> Erin, while listening, turned to me and said 'In one word...effortless'. There simply is no way to convey what the car really sounds like or how lifelike it can be. It isn't perfect yet, but it IS very, very nice. Clearly the judges agreed.


I was in the car just before Erin at finals. After Todd finished his demo for me, I approached Erin grinning and said, "not trying to dig on anybodies build, but Todd's car is the best I've heard yet, you gotta hear it." I still swear that I was in a smokey piano bar when I heard Diana Krall sing "Frim Fram Sauce". 



highly said:


> That's easy.
> Two seats. Two judges.
> Next season, it's on.


Man, MODEX cars are in SQ2+ too. I think "work cut out for me" is an understatement. 

Seriously though, great build, great attention to detail, and great results!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks for the reply, it definately helps. If it wasnt for threads like this, I wouldnt be where I am now with my build. I did forget to ask one more question, where did you source the aircraft tubing that you used for the HVAC. Being that my car is also a DD, quieting down the HVAC is one of my big priorities. The a/c gets used a lot, and gets annoying having to turn up the stereo over the air when its 110 out. Thanks again.


Aircraft Spruce, though I have also seen it on eBay. aircraftspruce.com


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

highly said:


> 3 - Installed free air you WILL push them hard. As mentioned, 200ish to around 5K. The tweeters each use different xovers and slopes to help manage stage width, but that's a different story and unrelated to this discussion. You are on your own there  6s over 4s is a tradeoff. All depends on what you are optimizing for and how much that 'tube' is going to effect your response. If it is smaller than about 3/4 of the Sd of the driver it will have some effect. You basically have to install to find out how much. Either it works or it requires work. <shrugs> Too many variables for my little brain to ponder mathematically.
> 
> Sorry if the response is more lame than usual for me. I am tired and have pushed through more than 50!!! PMs and quite a few emails today answering questions about the car. I am trying to be as transparent as possible on this build, but it is getting crazy. I hope it slows down a little
> 
> ...


Thanks Todd for this explanation - I was one of those emails (sorry :blush - I basically asked the same kind of thing, and this (and your emails) really helped explain your thinking with the midrange choice.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

bertholomey said:


> Thanks Todd for this explanation - I was one of those emails (sorry :blush - I basically asked the same kind of thing, and this (and your emails) really helped explain your thinking with the midrange choice.


No reason to be embarrassed about asking your questions. I'm happy to help! Maybe I will have luck and be able to rephrase what I have learned in a way that makes it click for you (not just you, but anyone reading this in the future). When I have more time I want to go through the PM questions and answers and post them back here so that the information I spent so much time relaying gets a more permanent home. 

Thanks!
-T


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Incredible. Thanks for the really intimate demo. The car sounded incredible. Right now it doesn't seem anyone can touch your car when it comes to realism and dynamics. Now I have something to strive for but don't know if my budget will allow the drivers you're running. Sucks there was so much spl ******** going on at the end of it through. While it didn't ruin the experience for me it sure made me wanna go pull the fuses out of their blocks. Next time I'll make sure to listen before they all wake up and drive their monstrosities over there. You have something special there and am sure it will only get better. One question though and I may have just missed it in your thread. Where was your sub located? It successfully did the disapearing act.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Incredible. Thanks for the really intimate demo. The car sounded incredible. Right now it doesn't seem anyone can touch your car when it comes to realism and dynamics. Now I have something to strive for but don't know if my budget will allow the drivers you're running. Sucks there was so much spl ******** going on at the end of it through. While it didn't ruin the experience for me it sure made me wanna go pull the fuses out of their blocks. Next time I'll make sure to listen before they all wake up and drive their monstrosities over there. You have something special there and am sure it will only get better. One question though and I may have just missed it in your thread. Where was your sub located? It successfully did the disappearing act.


Thanks so much! I'm glad you enjoyed the car... I tried to make sure everyone had as much time as I could manage in the car.

I didn't cover the sub in this writeup as it was part of the preceding build of the car and is covered pretty well here. The sub is a Dayton 12 HO in a ported box tuned to 32Hz. It's responsible for 56 and down, and will happily play pretty deeply below 20. It doesn't have any problem with keeping up with the front stage, even on Planet Krypton. It also blends quite well on my street tune at 80 Hz until you bump it up more than 4dB. 

Let me know how the treatments I suggested work out, but the way!

-Todd


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

highly said:


> Let me know how the treatments I suggested work out, but the way!
> 
> -Todd


What treatments were those? Kinda having a brain fart and my brain was on survival mode when I left. Sorry you didn't have a chance to hear mine. I was really wanting you to give your input on it. Had the drive back on my mind and thanks to forgetting my medication I had to get home. (Neuro issues that can't be left untreated is serious biddniss).


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> What treatments were those? Kinda having a brain fart and my brain was on survival mode when I left. Sorry you didn't have a chance to hear mine. I was really wanting you to give your input on it. Had the drive back on my mind and thanks to forgetting my medication I had to get home. (Neuro issues that can't be left untreated is serious biddniss).


My fault. Confused the screen names with the humans again. I'm bad enough trying to remember names, but screen names on top of that does a pretty good job of throwing me. reality > me, lol!


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I've actually thought about putting my mids and tweets in the kicks to combat pathlengths a little better. That way with the seats all the way back and reclined a little it could be a 2-seater to some degree. Something big will have to fail first though (old headunit that has freaked out a couple times and scared my ****less in the past year) before I drop the coin on the p99 and because of budget likely the Peerless Exclusive 5's and qforms. Tweets will likely be a well respected metal dome in a swivel cup of some sort. Maybe LPG's? I definately want that pronounced sound with endless life to it like you have. It also cuts through road noise better and my stock Badyears are a different kind of noisy. Prospector SUV's should help since they're near silent on my dads old Silverado. I definately will be bouncing ideas off you and others about my choices in the budget realm. My goal is to get to within half of what you have now. Trucks are just a royal pain to get sounding good without an insane amount of work and/or luck.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Give me a yell when you feel you are rounding that corner and I'll do what I can to help!

-T


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I've actually thought about putting my mids and tweets in the kicks to combat pathlengths a little better. That way with the seats all the way back and reclined a little it could be a 2-seater to some degree. Something big will have to fail first though (old headunit that has freaked out a couple times and scared my ****less in the past year) before I drop the coin on the p99 and because of budget likely the Peerless Exclusive 5's and qforms. Tweets will likely be a well respected metal dome in a swivel cup of some sort. Maybe LPG's? I definately want that pronounced sound with endless life to it like you have. It also cuts through road noise better and my stock Badyears are a different kind of noisy. Prospector SUV's should help since they're near silent on my dads old Silverado. I definately will be bouncing ideas off you and others about my choices in the budget realm. My goal is to get to within half of what you have now. Trucks are just a royal pain to get sounding good without an insane amount of work and/or luck.


careful, Chris, you're stepping away from the KISS approach you pride yourself on. 

Oh, btw, welcome to the dark side. It's really fun over here.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> careful, Chris, you're stepping away from the KISS approach you pride yourself on.
> 
> Oh, btw, welcome to the dark side. It's really fun over here.


I need a new challange. 3-way is too easy:laugh:If I had about $1500 to blow right now I'd be getting a p99, qforms, some deadener, and drivers for the qforms. Yes the flimsy forms will have the hell modded out of them and every trick I know to keep the backwave from interfering with the front. Oh crap, need another 4ch amps too...a biggun. eh Jello hit it right on the hd's and a pair of them under the passenger seat would be sweet.


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## tseng2394 (Jun 12, 2011)

Truly amazing work. Great job!


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## CluttsCustoms (Dec 5, 2011)

highly said:


> That's easy.
> Two seats. Two judges.
> Next season, it's on.


So which seat do I get? 

Finally getting on here.

I have judged many versions of this build and it keeps impressing me.

I gave it a 1/2 point difference better than Mark's at OK finals and had to double and triple check to make sure my calculator was right. There are definitely things this car does that none do and there are things that Mark's does that this one does not do.... yet! 

Keep up the good work and never settle for Just Todd


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## tintbox (Oct 25, 2008)

CluttsCustoms said:


> So which seat do I get?
> 
> Finally getting on here.
> 
> ...


Nice.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

tintbox said:


> Nice.


Thanks, Jeremy! I really have no idea how I am going to manage to seat the very diverse judging crew we have out here in OK. It has been enough of a learning experience in one seat. Two will be a serious challenge!

I should mention... Just Todd was a 'nickname' coined by Woody (David Woods) at one of the Choctaw Casino shows. He had some significant difficulty attempting to pronounce my last name when calling my up at awards time and announced "Todd Loo... Luhhh... lieee... Oh, just Todd. You know who you are!". From that point forward it stuck, and every time I was called up at the end of a show a local car club/ SPL competitors, Sic Wit It, would yell out in unison "Juuuust ToooooooooooD!". It kinda became a 'thing'. It was funny as hell.

So that's the deal with 'Just Todd'...


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I just wanted to say a public "Thank You" to Todd for his willingness to share what he has done in this thread. His ideas on the AC ductwork made installing a 6.5" center MUCH easier.

Hope this didn't drag things too OT, just wanted to say thanks (Todd, if you want the pictures gone since it's your build log, just say the word).


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## Noobdelux (Oct 20, 2011)

darn thats a nice one.. both "just todd`s" and pionkej`s custom work.. 
keep it up.. (ps wouldent mind a comment on my mkV build : )


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Been awhile, so here's a teaser:

FI IB3 18" through the spare tire well, true IB.

*3 layers of 3/4" Birch Ply*










*That's the spot alright!*










*Make a hole and make it wide!*


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Go*tta protect the cone, brah!*









*An object at rest and all that...*


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

oooh yeah!

a little tip ive learned, build the post (10 pics per post limit) and then copy\paste it to wordpad, make the next 10 picture pods and add it to your word pad. then when you are ready just copy\paste them in rapid succession in the quick reply box!

that way people can snag in-betweens like me


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

There's a lot more to it than shown here. I bolted it all together with 8x 3" bolts and nylock nuts, threw it on the HD750/1, cranked it up and nearly shat myself. Talk about tactile feedback! When that thing moves it takes the whole car with it. THAT won't disappear!

So I had a problem. I pulled the mounting ring back out and jigged it up on a scrap piece of ply with the inner circles that were cut out of it put back in and screwed down. With the jig in place, I rabbeted into the rings 3/4" deep and 1/8" larger than the woofer mounting flange. I unbolted everything and layed in two different kinds of foam into the 'groove' I'd made, then put the woofer back down on the foam. I then made cantilever brackets and risers for the through-bolts from steel u-brackets. Now when the woofer is in place and the brackets are bolted in I have a sandwich that goes like this:

Bracket
Foam
Woofer Flange
Foam 
Rigid baffle
Chassis

So the bolts do not go through the woofer anymore - the woofer is 'floating' in compressed foam between the 8 brackets and the baffle. Crank it up and....no vibrations in the chassis! Better, but when you crank it up you can tell the spare tire well is still flexing and creating localizable resonance as it does.

I grab a big hunk of 10GA steel sheet and that hammer and go to work. I hammer the 10Ga out into a handmade replica of the spare tire well, cut a big hole in the middle to match up to the woofer, and weld the grille material into it. 

With the replica of the spare tire well made, I liberally coat the inside with Polyurethane roofing sealant about 1/4" thick, then stick it onto the outside of the car. I run the drill through and then bolt the entire thing together from the outside in. Now with the glued-in doubler in place and the sub bolted back in... NOW we're talking! 15 Hz here we come!

More pics with visuals of the above described changes soon...

The result?
The first 9's I've ever managed to pull off in Sub-bass tonality


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

req said:


> oooh yeah!
> 
> a little tip ive learned, build the post (10 pics per post limit) and then copy\paste it to wordpad, make the next 10 picture pods and add it to your word pad. then when you are ready just copy\paste them in rapid succession in the quick reply box!
> 
> that way people can snag in-betweens like me


No problem, Andy. I'll just have Erin come back and delete your post instead.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

I can't wait to hear it this weekend


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

*Rabbeted ring:*









*detail of foam then sub in rabbet:*


















*Glue to seal it up:*









*Ring in place:*


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

*Just beat it!*









*Then check it for fit:*









*Eventually you get this:*









*Bolted in! WOOT!*


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

*Underside Passenger side:*









*Underside Driver's Side*:









Once everything was good and dry the assembly was coated liberally with bedliner to finish it off. The PU roofing sealant remains flexible and watertight and doesn't stink like silicone - not to say it doesn't have an odor, but not like silicone does. Everything was waterproofed up to the edge of the woofer with the roofing sealant inside and out. Then a hunk of carpet was cut to size and saturated with CampDry and allowed to dry. It was then rubber cemented into place between the woofer cone and the steel screen. It doesn't flutter when the woofer is going to town and keeps the water on the outside of the car, just as it should. 

So far no complaints at all!


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## Thrill_House (Nov 20, 2008)

Damn this build is awesome, so so so nicely done!!!


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

That work on the new subwoofer mount is sick. I wish I could hear it.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Thank you both! I've really learned a LOT on this iteration of the car. Just when I think I have reached the point that it cannot possibly get any better, a new revelation takes the car one step further. For a car that's still running a completely stock W205 and H701 processor it's doing rather well. I feel like my tuning skills have gotten to the point that I could begin to take advantage of some of the more powerful offerings and eek a little more out of a scoresheet, but I think I am going to save that for the next car. I'll give the GTi one more season in the lanes and in the meantime focus on its replacement!

-T


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

highly said:


> Thank you both! I've really learned a LOT on this iteration of the car. Just when I think I have reached the point that it cannot possibly get any better, a new revelation takes the car one step further. For a car that's still running a completely stock W205 and H701 processor it's doing rather well. I feel like my tuning skills have gotten to the point that I could begin to take advantage of some of the more powerful offerings and eek a little more out of a scoresheet, but I think I am going to save that for the next car. I'll give the GTi one more season in the lanes and in the meantime focus on its replacement!
> 
> -T


Good lord, you're taking it up a notch... AGAIN  
Way to go :thumbsup: 

So now everything is IB to the outside world meaning it's now louder outside than before 

Kelvin


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Actually the sub is all but silent outside compared to the rest of the car! LOL!

If I open the doors and crank it up it's BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

If I then open the hatchback it's boom boom boom 

Close the hatch and again it's BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

Kinda funny. The car becomes a HUGE ported box... 

Full system is now:
Hybrid L1ProR2 ring radiators in the sail panels on 1 channel each of an HD600/4 
JL Audio ZR650-CW in the dash as midrange, fully IB on 1 channel each of an HD600/4
JL Audio ZR800-CW in the kick panels, fully IB on 2 channels each of a HD600/4
FI IB3 18" through the floor, fully IB on an HD 750/1

That's two 600/4s and a 750/1 for 1950 watts total.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Todd, I'm glad to see the results from properly decoupling the sub. I've been thinking about doing it exactly as you did for a while now for midbass and the subs, I even drafted up a design for the machine shop based on it. Glad to know I wasn't on crack.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

highly said:


> Actually the sub is all but silent outside compared to the rest of the car! LOL!
> 
> If I open the doors and crank it up it's BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!
> 
> ...


Interesting... Would like to know your feedback regarding road noise if you ever notice a difference. 

Wondering what made you change your midrange and midbass drivers? I see a lot of people using JL gears lately (other than their amps) - from C5 to ZR 

Kelvin


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Todd, I'm glad to see the results from properly decoupling the sub. I've been thinking about doing it exactly as you did for a while now for midbass and the subs, I even drafted up a design for the machine shop based on it. Glad to know I wasn't on crack.


The nail in resonant coffin was the combination of 1) a very rigid baffle (the spare tire well doubler and mounting rings) and 2) effective decoupling. Neither of the two was enough on their own for this installation. It's good to note that you can't skimp on one or the other - I HAD to do both if I hoped to make a significant change. This may not be the case in every such installation, but for me it was all or nothing.

...and there is more planned for the near future where the sub is concerned!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

highly said:


> The nail in resonant coffin was the combination of 1) a very rigid baffle (the spare tire well doubler and mounting rings) and 2) effective decoupling. Neither of the two was enough on their own for this installation. It's good to note that you can't skimp on one or the other - I HAD to do both if I hoped to make a significant change. This may not be the case in every such installation, but for me it was all or nothing.
> 
> ...and there is more planned for the near future where the sub is concerned!


Thanks for sharing. I'm working on something similar to George's Lat experiment, but using conventional drivers in a manifold, possibly for both midbass and the subs (depending on how the idea pans out). I'm hoping the opposed firing, combined with decoupling, combined with tying the baffles in to multiple different surfaces will kill any possible resonance in my install.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

subwoofery said:


> Interesting... Would like to know your feedback regarding road noise if you ever notice a difference.
> 
> Wondering what made you change your midrange and midbass drivers? I see a lot of people using JL gears lately (other than their amps) - from C5 to ZR
> 
> Kelvin


The sub did let a lot of road noise in initially, but I have the rest of the wheel well stuffed with old pillows at the moment. Just, you know... laid there around the outside of the sub against the spare tire well's vertical walls. Oddly this made the car QUIETER than it was before the sub went in...I expect because they are working to absorb the upper midrange frequencies early as they enter the vehicle through the sub's cone. I'm not certain.

<shrugs> It worked. I'm not complaining. </shrugs>

I trialled a NUMBER of different midrange drivers to get a handle on some odd issues I was seeing as a result of the through-cowl install of the midranges. The ZR650s have been in the car since late-season 2011. That's when I also tried the Vifa NE and a few other similarly sized midrange/midbass drivers. The ZR650 provided the weight I was looking for in the lower midrange, the detail in the upper midrange, and the dispersion pattern that best fit this particular installation. There were some that had better midrange detail but lacked the heft. Some with the heft that lacked the dispersion... in this particular installation the ZR650 was the clear winner, and no matter how hard I beat on them they laugh it off without a care. 

The midbasses went in after Finals 2011. Though they lacked a bit of the immediacy of the previous midbass, they made up for that with output, extension, and impact. It took a good bit of tuning to get the level of detail in the midbass that the L8 had, but when I did I was rewarded with the ability to play them down to ungodly low hipass frequencies when the need arises. Coupled with the fact that a large format midrange handles frequencies well into the midbass, and that left the L8s out of their primary element. The car was really screaming for a heavy hitting woofer, not a midbass, to finish off the front stage. The ZR800 was simply better equipped to fill that void.

Both the L6se and the L8 are exceptional drivers in their own right, they simply weren't in the best interest of this particular installation. If the installation was amenable to overall higher crossover points then those drivers would have maintained their advantage and may have stayed in the car.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks for sharing. I'm working on something similar to George's Lat experiment, but using conventional drivers in a manifold, possibly for both midbass and the subs (depending on how the idea pans out). I'm hoping the opposed firing, combined with decoupling, combined with tying the baffles in to multiple different surfaces will kill any possible resonance in my install.


You better believe I tried everything at my disposal to find a way to put a LAT 700 through the firewall. I have one staring at me in the shop every day I go to do work on the car. It was all but PLEADING with me to find a way, but alas it was not to be. There simply wasn't enough room for that AND air conditioning in the car, and I wasn't willing to give up one for the promise of the other...

Good luck with your experiment, and be sure to go crazy with the pictures! that sounds like fun!


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

highly said:


> The sub did let a lot of road noise in initially, but I have the rest of the wheel well stuffed with old pillows at the moment. Just, you know... laid there around the outside of the sub against the spare tire well's vertical walls. Oddly this made the car QUIETER than it was before the sub went in...I expect because they are working to absorb the upper midrange frequencies early as they enter the vehicle through the sub's cone. I'm not certain.
> 
> <shrugs> It worked. I'm not complaining. </shrugs>
> 
> ...


Interesting... Like that you explained the change in depth - needing a woofer and all 

Thanks for the reply  

Kelvin


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

highly said:


> Actually the sub is all but silent outside compared to the rest of the car! LOL!
> 
> If I open the doors and crank it up it's BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!
> 
> ...


Roll down the windows and you change your setup from IB to dipole (lol)


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

For only competing two shows in 2012, the car did pretty well for itself:




























Nevertheless I will need to step things up if I want to do well at 2013 SoundFest with it. Having heard Steve Cook's truck and a few of the other vehicles at this year's SoundFest, they are more than capable of making things very, very close come the end of the year... and rumor has it that more than a few people will be forging their way up into Extreme. I'll have my work cut out for me to hold my own against those incredible cars in head to head competition, but I feel confident that the car has a chance if I don't fail the tune.


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

Danggg, so this is what you have been bz doing....


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Nah. This was started and finished in one weekend _in between_ all the things I've been doing


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## perfecxionx (Sep 4, 2009)

will road noise inside the enclosure not interfere with the sub at all?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

perfecxionx said:


> will road noise inside the enclosure not interfere with the sub at all?


What enclosure? The enclosure for the sub is Planet Earth...

The subwoofer installation is exactly as you see in the pictures. There is no enclosure in the vehicle that fits over the sub or obstructs it in any way. It is playing infinite baffle - no enclosure - and the entire cone is vented to the outside of the car. The entire backside if the sub is inside the car with no additional enclosure. >-just to be clear-<

Maybe I don't understand the question?


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

highly said:


> Nah. This was started and finished in one weekend _in between_ all the things I've been doing


Thats fast work man!! LOL looks great!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

SouthSyde said:


> Thats fast work man!! LOL looks great!


I'm learning from Mic who always insists I take forever to do anything. Maybe he has a point? :laugh:


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

I need to come back later and really study this thread. 
The sub install looks good. I was wondering how the speaker looked inside the car and then I saw the pic in the spare tire well.


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

Very impressive work. I so wanted to do IB the same way you did.. but my car has a large fuel filter/sending unit mounted directly under the spare tire well. Doh!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Notloudenuf said:


> I need to come back later and really study this thread.
> The sub install looks good. I was wondering how the speaker looked inside the car and then I saw the pic in the spare tire well.


It's all hidden under the false floor through which it vents. Visually it is nonexistent.

Yeah, I HID an 18" sub in the install.  The possibility of doing this was planned for before the rear half build even started and the floor height was chosen accordingly.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

highly said:


> I'm learning from Mic who always insists I take forever to do anything. Maybe he has a point? :laugh:


I consider myself slow so...im not sure what your rate would be


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## perfecxionx (Sep 4, 2009)

highly said:


> What enclosure? The enclosure for the sub is Planet Earth...
> 
> The subwoofer installation is exactly as you see in the pictures. There is no enclosure in the vehicle that fits over the sub or obstructs it in any way. It is playing infinite baffle - no enclosure - and the entire cone is vented to the outside of the car. The entire backside if the sub is inside the car with no additional enclosure. >-just to be clear-<
> 
> Maybe I don't understand the question?


I believe I understand these principles of IB, but if I am looking at this application correctly you have the woofer cone directly facing the road (and all the sound emanating from the road and traffic). What I am asking is: wont the intensity of the sound waves from the outside of the car, that are directly hitting the cone, interfere with the woofer's performance?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

No they are too long and not enough pressure right there. It will be loud as hell outside though.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

I thought it WOULD be loud as hell outside. It isn't. The front stage is much louder outside the car than the sub is.

Inside, however, the sub is beastly.

The road noise is inaudible through the cone over the normal noises the car makes, and the distance from the cone to the road is inconsequential to the performance of the woofer. maybe I could hear a difference in a Cadillac...but this is a VW GTi. I also don't drive with the stereo off - all I hear then is spooling turbo, tire noise, and wind. A little exhaust when I get on it. No noisier now than it ever was


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

highly said:


> I thought it WOULD be loud as hell outside. It isn't. The front stage is much louder outside the car than the sub is.
> 
> Inside, however, the sub is beastly.
> 
> The road noise is inaudible through the cone over the normal noises the car makes, and the distance from the cone to the road is inconsequential to the performance of the woofer. maybe I could hear a difference in a Cadillac...but this is a VW GTi. I also don't drive with the stereo off - all I hear then is spooling turbo, tire noise, and wind. A little exhaust when I get on it. No noisier now than it ever was


Keeping your thread in mind when I get my new car in 5 years from now  
Got me seriously interested in IB even when you have a hatchback, a station wagon or an SUV :thumbsup: 

Kelvin


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## jpeezy (Feb 5, 2012)

Just imagine charging someone 40$ an hour, just for the dash,how many hours were involved?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

How loud is the bass say 20-30 feet away?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> How loud is the bass say 20-30 feet away?


lol. I was about to ask the same when I saw Todd's reply about it not being loud outside. 

mofo's hear him coming from a long way out.


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

Not loud at all...matter of fact, I can't recall hearing it outside the car at all...not even when Mark was putting it through it's paces.

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

If it was crossed over a lot higher than it probably is, I'm sure you could hear it. Considering the 8's are in the 25-30hz range, I imagine the 18 is in the 20hz range, so not much music material down there. 

Unless he has changed the crossover setup since I last heard it.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I think Jason was more or less commenting on the wavelength aspect of it. 

But, I'm just giving Todd a hard time. He's working... so we have a couple hours.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

narvarr said:


> Not loud at all...matter of fact, I can't recall hearing it outside the car at all...not even when Mark was putting it through it's paces.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


Was Mark's car running when you were trying to determine this?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

In the comp tune it runs up to 45 with a highpass of 12db at 20Hz to keep the Chesky Singers from breathing on the microphone and kicking you in the head. It clearly displays the foot tap in I Love Paris.

And no, even wailing on it you hear everything BUT the sub outside. It's...odd. I'll try to get the meter on it outside and inside the car tomorrow to measure it for you. Without the car it's like a woofer without a box sitting on your sofa. You hear the motor noise and the suspension moving, but no real sound. you don't feel it either. <shrugs> Very counterintuitive. Open a window and THEN you hear it.

On my daily tune it runs up to 65 to give the midbass a break when I crank it up. Still don't really hear it outside except as it bleeds through from INside.

Robert will tell you what he hears on Saturday, but Navarr was there. He knows what I'm talking about.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Mechanical Road Noise Cancellation?  No need for a RoadEQ now 

Kelvin


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> Was Mark's car running when you were trying to determine this?


Actually I think that was when Mark was in my car demoing it with _his_ music at _his_ levels trying to figure out what he was going to have to do next year to avoid getting another Hatfield and McCoy.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

A sweep from 80-20 Hz that maintains 118dB in the car (rather loud while sitting still) reads 92 dB outside the car in my garage (~3 feet away from the chassis, meter on the floor). Taking the car outside away from the house so there is no 'room gain' and it registers ~80dB peak. I think a part of the 92 was the garage door buzzing?

So... quiet. ~38dB quieter outside the car then inside, so for all intents and purposes as quiet as a sub in a box inside the car would be. Bleed through the chassis is louder than sound from the cone when outside the vehicle. The rattles and buzzes outside the car are the more notable 'feature'. <shrugs> IDGI and not very scientific but it works for me 

-T


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

infinite baffle is weird and cool.

so i take it that you only have <one> 18 left of the pair then?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

req said:


> infinite baffle is weird and cool.
> 
> so i take it that you only have <one> 18 left of the pair then?


Where would the other one GO? LOL...!


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)




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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Wesayso said:


>


Half of that would be dragging on the ground if I could even get the car's rear tires back on the ground...


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

highly said:


> Half of that would be dragging on the ground if I could even get the car's rear tires back on the ground...


Isnt that what Linear Power had in their booth?

enjoy your stay in 1992!
make sure you have enough plutonium stored up so you can travel back to 2012 soon... you will be missed

Wait...how are u even posting from 1992? that must have taken like 3hrs to respond to this post...I hope noone picks up the phone where u are, or youre ****ed

OMG I can see a toe!!!!:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Vandersteen 


> Fusion™ Subwoofers. The unique dual-motor, push-pull subwoofers two curvilinear aluminum cones sandwiched together with an exotic honeycomb material built-in to Vandersteen Model 7 loudspeakers are unlike anything else on the market. They don’t simply “augment” bass. They extend the low frequency response of the speakers while reducing distortion in the midrange. Bass response and harmonic response are fused together in a seamless blend maintaining full-range amplitude linearity and time- and phase-response


I wouldn't be surpriced if it dates back to 1992 though , the picture came from a webpage dating back to 2002. But it's still in the 2010 brochure....

Get some air suspension and go low and slow....


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Wesayso said:


> Vandersteen
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if it dates back to 1992 though , the picture came from a webpage dating back to 2002. But it's still in the 2010 brochure....
> 
> Get some air suspension and go low and slow....


An Isobaric subwoofer. One that's particularly unfriendly to this sort of installation and that presents more problems than it solves given my approach to the problem. One of them (one of the pair of subs) would have to be in an enclosure or, in my installation on the other side of the IB baffle; i.e., under the car. With ~6" from trunk floor to asphalt, that wouldn't be a good thing 

A Tymphany LAT700 or three would make more sense if Isobaric IB was the direction I was headed. CVJoint's work with them was promising enough to warrant further attempts, and a Porsche would be an exceptional place to try!


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## chevbowtie22 (Nov 23, 2008)

This WHOLE build is amazing. I'm especially intrigued in the IB install much like everyone else here. I have never seen one done like that I had actually thought about doing one in my car just like that few months back but I chickened out. I guess not ever seeing one or hearing about one done like that scared me off. Lol. But I might give it another thought.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

highly said:


> An Isobaric subwoofer. One that's particularly unfriendly to this sort of installation and that presents more problems than it solves given my approach to the problem. One of them (one of the pair of subs) would have to be in an enclosure or, in my installation on the other side of the IB baffle; i.e., under the car. With ~6" from trunk floor to asphalt, that wouldn't be a good thing
> 
> A Tymphany LAT700 or three would make more sense if Isobaric IB was the direction I was headed. CVJoint's work with them was promising enough to warrant further attempts, and a Porsche would be an exceptional place to try!


Three LAT700s would be nice, especially with cabin gain. George's S2000 gets loud with two, and that's with a soft top. Three lats in a firewall (trunkwall?) of a rear engine car, even better. Another idea I told my wife about, but no resources to try it out. I know Gary Summers picked up a Fiero to mess with the idea of building a two seat car. He said there are actually two bulkheads in the front, so he can get every driver about 6' away. I may be able to test some ideas coming up at the beginning of Dec, I'll get lots of pics and graphs.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I know a guy that had a harassed fiero he used to compete with in the mid/late 90s. He had 2 ads 10s up front bandpassed into the cabin of the car. Ads px 6s in mtm across the dash.


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## SteveH! (Nov 7, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> I know a guy that had a harassed fiero he used to compete with in the mid/late 90s. He had 2 ads 10s up front bandpassed into the cabin of the car. Ads px 6s in mtm across the dash.


That would BE bryan wilkinson, (i may have mauled the last name) i loved that car
think i may have to csr ish it was in


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

highly said:


> An Isobaric subwoofer. One that's particularly unfriendly to this sort of installation and that presents more problems than it solves given my approach to the problem. One of them (one of the pair of subs) would have to be in an enclosure or, in my installation on the other side of the IB baffle; i.e., under the car. With ~6" from trunk floor to asphalt, that wouldn't be a good thing
> 
> A Tymphany LAT700 or three would make more sense if Isobaric IB was the direction I was headed. CVJoint's work with them was promising enough to warrant further attempts, and a Porsche would be an exceptional place to try!


I wasn't too serious about that . That Tymphany driver does sound promissing. The lack of vibrations alone is worth a try. But it would take a great deal of work to get something like that in the firewall. There are a lot of air ducts trough the firewall, I guess that's why my current subwoofer works as well as it does.

Great build you have here and I like how that subwoofer is mounted without beeing simply bolted down. That's something I have to try with my front trunk mounted sub enclosure. I've had it bolted down (bad idea), loose (better but still not good) and semi isolated with rubber (best yet). I plan to try and isolate it completely from the sheetmetal next by clamping with some rubber/foam in between.

Right now I still get rattles in the steering column playing an E-40 track. That steering column ends up bolted in the same space the sub box is mounted. So I have to find a way to controll that.

Did you do something similar with the midbass? Is it isolated from the sheetmetal as well?

I would love to see you put into words how you do your tuning. If it's not a trade secret of coarse.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Wesayso said:


> ... it would take a great deal of work to get something like that in the firewall...


If it was easy, everyone would be doing it! 



Wesayso said:


> Did you do something similar with the midbass? Is it isolated from the sheetmetal as well?


The midbass are rigidly mounted to the chassis and the mounting is isolated from the floorboard as much as possible. They are affixed to the portion of the chassis that is structural, not the portion that is one layer of unsupported floppy metal. The mounting for the midbass, shown earlier in the thread as being able to support the corner weight of the car, rigidly ties the midbass to the chassis to terminate the vibrations from the speaker into the chassis. It works pretty well. There is no rigid structural steel available where the subwoofer went, so that process wouldn't work here. I considered building a 'bird cage' or 'space frame' assembly that tied back into structural metal but that is space- and time- restrictive. Thus isolation seemed the better choice.



Wesayso said:


> I would love to see you put into words how you do your tuning. If it's not a trade secret of coarse.


Driver location was selected by trying the drivers in different locations, so I've included that into the tuning process here:

Driver placement/aiming Testing Loop
For each new driver location, do:
Step 1 - Basic levels and phase
Step 2 - Basic crossovers
Step 3 - Basic time alignment - revisit Step 1 for phase and levels
Step 4 - Basic parallel EQ for peaks with RTA and ears
Step 5 - Iteratively revisit 1-4 until the stage becomes coherent, mostly centered, and reasonably focused.
Step 6 - Stage judgement - Square? Height? Bowed? Pulls?- revisit crossovers and test assymetrical solutions
Step 7* - Take copious notes, listen to music. 'score' the viability of each choice.
End Testing Loop - Permanently install the drivers when the best compromise is selected

Once drivers are mounted, start again at Step 1 for final tuning, then:
Step 8 - Revisit EQ for tonal issues
Step 9 - Apply any necessary differential EQ
Step 10 - Revisit Step 6 for staging issues, back to Step 1 if a serious flaw is discovered.


Step 7*: Whenever possible, attempt to correct problems found in Step 6 using installation 
techniques first. Some things cannot be corrected using electronics. Fix them in installation!

That's a BIG overall picture. The devil, as they say, is in the details 

Also noteworthy - just because this is the way I choose to do it doesn't make it right. Some other successful competitors use a two-step process: Install speakers, then Tune. It works for them. I would be forever running in circles tearing out my setup and reinstalling though. Every time I ran into a problem I would think to myself "if only I had tried OtherThing, this would have worked better!". Soon, thoughts of OtherThing would consume me until all I could do is go back and try OtherThing - even if it had very little chance of working. Using this process I can try everything up front and then be certain enough to tell myself that I have selected the best possible locations and aimings given the drivers I have chosen. It's a lot more work up front, but it has saved me a lot of work along the way. Mostly because I am probably borderline OCD or something...


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

I think we're all OCD to some extent...that's why we do this hobby right?

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

narvarr said:


> I think we're all OCD to some extent...that's why we do this hobby right?


This may be true, but...
I've had to create a 'daily' tune for driving. It's been set up with a softened focus and detail relative to the competition tune, and time alignment set up for the driving position. Frequency response is rolled off on top, and mid- and sub-bass adjusted to give pleasing response when driving. I was forced to do this because when the system is set up razor-sharp, temperature and seating differences made stage splits very apparent. They would annoy me so much that I couldn't enjoy the music without fixing them...EVERY time I got in the car. Local radio stations boost 8-12K so their highs sound good and lively on factory systems, but 6dB at 10K is overwhelming on a comp tuned car that has the ability to resolve it. A few stations bump 4K, put a hump in the midrange for intelligibility, and add 50-80 so the drums and bass 'hit'. It might sound better on factory setups, but not in my car. 

Yeah, yeah... I know. Now come the folks telling me
'That's why I don't listen to the Radio. It's all commercials anyway'
'That's why I have Sirius!'
'That's why I listen to XM!'
'Pandora FTMFW!'

<not> the point.  Point is there are sources I like to listen to in order to stay current with music and the state of the world at large and I can't enjoy them with all of their eccentricities and adjustments for 'the masses' because they annoy me too much, so I've had to 'dumb down' my car to bear listening to them again. Car audio has made my OCD and LAPQAG** much worse!

**Level of Annoyance with Poor Quality Audio In General


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

To be fair, and having a fair amount of OCD myself; I use the term "CDO," as it is in a sequential order this way. Let the regular programming continue.


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## devillestat (Jun 20, 2009)

hello highly

excellent install !!

just a question in the driving side in the L8´s kick panels did you remove the hood release handle??? if so where did you put it??

thanks


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Hood release handle is gone along with the harness and connectors on the white plastic panel that used to be there. The connectors are pushed up behind the relay box. A autoloc solenoid replaces the cable actuator with a switch. The actuator is in the radiator support near the latch. Press the button and the hood pops like the cable was intact. If the battery dies I can attach the charger to the charge port under the DS front headlight and supply power to pop the hood.

And thanks for the kudos!  

-Todd


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## aholland1198 (Oct 7, 2009)

Nice build! I see you live in piedmont about 5-10 minutes north of me. What are shop hours? I need some dash pods built! J/K

When is the next event around here? I want to hear this machine.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

aholland1198 said:


> Nice build! I see you live in piedmont about 5-10 minutes north of me. What are shop hours? I need some dash pods built! J/K
> 
> When is the next event around here? I want to hear this machine.


There won't be anything until February/March timeframe, and very little if anything in the OKC area. Most of the actual shows are in Sherman, Texas or up in Tulsa. We _do_ have DiYMA GTGs at Anthony Aho's shop up in Guthrie a few times a year. I'd highly recommend his shop if you have pods you want built. He does exceptional work and his pricing is very reasonable. Best of all he speaks SQ - something many shops these days do NOT do! Otherwise it's probably easier to just drop me a message and we can meet up to give you a demo. I expect the car to be coming back together as time gets closer to the next show, so early next year for sure!


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## aholland1198 (Oct 7, 2009)

highly said:


> There won't be anything until February/March timeframe, and very little if anything in the OKC area. Most of the actual shows are in Sherman, Texas or up in Tulsa. We _do_ have DiYMA GTGs at Anthony Aho's shop up in Guthrie a few times a year. I'd highly recommend his shop if you have pods you want built. He does exceptional work and his pricing is very reasonable. Best of all he speaks SQ - something many shops these days do NOT do! Otherwise it's probably easier to just drop me a message and we can meet up to give you a demo. I expect the car to be coming back together as time gets closer to the next show, so early next year for sure!



I will try to keep an eye out for the next show. Wouldn't mind a little road trip.

I have seen his shop on my way to the skeet range, always wondered what the story was on that place. Is he a DIYMA member? I will have to see him about upgrading my HATs. 

When you are back to the tuning phase, let me know. I'm sure we can find some time to meet up after the holidays. 

Back to the install, maybe I skipped over the explanation, but why did you decide to go to JL mids from your HAT setup?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

aholland1198 said:


> I will try to keep an eye out for the next show. Wouldn't mind a little road trip.
> 
> I have seen his shop on my way to the skeet range, always wondered what the story was on that place. Is he a DIYMA member? I will have to see him about upgrading my HATs.


He's on DiYMA, AND he's a new HAT dealer! You're in luck on both counts  His screen name is Aho77.



aholland1198 said:


> When you are back to the tuning phase, let me know. I'm sure we can find some time to meet up after the holidays.


No doubt!



aholland1198 said:


> Back to the install, maybe I skipped over the explanation, but why did you decide to go to JL mids from your HAT setup?


The complete answer to that question would take a few paragraphs. The short answer is that the JLs simply suited the install better than the Hybrids. In another build the Hybrids might have won out as there are a number of things I really like about them, but the JLs were simply a better choice for THIS build.


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## Miguel mac (Sep 28, 2009)

Hi

I really like your installation, I own a car like yours.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Todd,

Just went through your entire build log again. Bloody spectacular!

Any updates? Inquiring minds want to know.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Not really. I will be swapping out the 701 for something with a little better resolution - the RPM88 - but that's pretty much it for the GTi. All my time has been focused on the GTi's successor. 

Given the changes in the MECA rules for Extreme, I was thinking maybe a schoolbus with articulating laZboy driver's seat, a pair of Genelecs and a Fathom...


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

highly said:


> Not really. I will be swapping out the 701 for something with a little better resolution - the RPM88 - but that's pretty much it for the GTi. All my time has been focused on the GTi's successor.
> 
> Given the changes in the MECA rules for Extreme, I was thinking maybe a schoolbus with articulating laZboy driver's seat, a pair of Genelecs and a Fathom...


Does your school bus go to my neighborhood?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

No ****. I'd ride that bus.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Anything Goes...


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

Is it a short bus?

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

narvarr said:


> Is it a short bus?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


There's another kind?


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

dibs on the 701...muhahaha


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

SQ Audi said:


> dibs on the 701...muhahaha


Actually it's probably headed to my brother in law. We're outfitting his MkII GTi after he heard my car over Thanksgiving. Probably going to run the Dayton 3's in the pillars, SLS midbass in the kicks, and two 6w3v3s. It should be a fun little car, but he won't be competing with it. Just something fun for him to listen to.

You should REALLY consider one of the new processors. They are head and shoulders better than the Alpines in every way if you are using analog. Worth every penny, and I just saw a Helix in the classifieds for $300. That is a no-brainer, Joe!


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

I can't wait to hear the GTI with the Rane unit. Should be interesting...

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

narvarr said:


> Is it a short bus?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


HEYYYYY!!!! LOL


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

narvarr said:


> I can't wait to hear the GTI with the Rane unit. Should be interesting...
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


I expect mixed blessings. We'll see what the future brings when it arrives, I guess! The W205/701 set ran digitally. The W205 isn't known to be a diamond for SQ, so for all I know it could turn out to be a bad choice and expose the deficiencies of the analog output. I'm also going to get my first real experience tuning with parametric filters and the host of other capabilities the RPM provides. 

Never know!

-T


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

highly said:


> I expect mixed blessings. We'll see what the future brings when it arrives, I guess! The W205/701 set ran digitally. The W205 isn't known to be a diamond for SQ, so for all I know it could turn out to be a bad choice and expose the deficiencies of the analog output. I'm also going to get my first real experience tuning with parametric filters and the host of other capabilities the RPM provides.
> 
> Never know!
> 
> -T


Todd, you could probably make that thing turn back time!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

SouthSyde said:


> Todd, you could probably make that thing turn back time!


Exactly. The car didn't used to sound this good in the past. If I turn back time TOO far it'll sound like I have the MS8 in it again. How would THAT be good?! LOL!


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

highly said:


> Exactly. The car didn't used to sound this good in the past. If I turn back time TOO far it'll sound like I have the MS8 in it again. How would THAT be good?! LOL!


No no, you know what I mean.... LOL

you are not going backwards with this, that I assure you!


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## audio+civic (Apr 16, 2009)

Subscribed


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

Well I am staring down a P-DSP, a DSP-6 and possibly a DBX Drive Rack...if I can get it at the right price.

We will see.

Joe


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Well, I've done some 'things' (no pictures yet) to the car to firm things up with the sub install a little more. I've decided not to bother with the Rane install. Things are good enough that I will just button her up and run her as she is for the season. Instead I am devoting 90% of my time on the 'new' car build to try to get it out the door in time to get it to Finals. 

The subbass is simply the best the car has ever had. Recent changes have allowed me to <finally> overcome the majority of the chassis' normal modal issues - issues that prevented me from effectively using the sub above 50Hz. Through every iteration of the car, the many subs I have tried would pull to the rear with a vengeance if I attempted to play them any higher than that. In fact, with the sub turned off and the midbasses tuned down low, the front-mounted midbasses would pull to the rear on certain material. This wasn't a seat vibration issue - it was acoustic. You could crawl around in the back and stick your head in the acoustic center of the room mode! As a result I only ever used the sub as 'bottom octave fill' from 45 down. That put the midbass in the unenviable position of having to reproduce everything else with a great deal of authority. The ZR800 was NOT designed to take 300W IB tuned down to 31 Hz but that's what I have had them doing till now. They really never saw that power, but to achieve the authority I required down low they were working much harder than they should have been!

Now I am running the sub up to 125Hz and it stays glued in a pinpoint out on the hood. Low end extension is exceptional. The sub will play linearly beyond the ability to hear it when I pull the subsonic crossover (currently 22Hz at 24dB!). Shortly after you no longer hear the tone you begin to hear the pumping action of the suspension of the front stage speakers as they stroke in and out in time with the pressure wave. I've not experienced that before, but it's easily explained by the fact that - true IB - the FI IB3 18 models to +18db in the car through 10Hz with cabin gain.

This sub will take 550 watts at 20Hz at full excursion. I seriously doubt the chassis would!

Between the mechanical changes to the sub's immediate environment, acoustical changes to the back half of the car, and tuning I have managed to finally slay the bass daemon in this car.

As a result of this I'm not going to bother swapping out to the Rane. I'm happy with the car the way it is on the 701 and the fine control the Rane would afford for tuning the sub-bass simply isn't necessary anymore. 

I will update the build log with the changes when I get the chance, but it won't be immediate. Too many other things going on right now to dedicate the time, and though the results are in the work isn't <quite> finished yet!

Soon, though!

-T


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Sounds like we both ran in to the same issues with modes. I'm still unable to do anything about them mechanically, though. So I'm definitely looking forward to seeing what you have done.


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## tintbox (Oct 25, 2008)

I need to make a point to come out there. I'm due for a road trip in the spring.


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

I can't wait to hear what you've cooked up this time! You are coming to the Soundscape show in Plano right?

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Wonders what has changed...


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I'd love to see what you've done as my Golf has some similar issues.


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## Gadget01 (Oct 20, 2008)

Todd, this car is *the* best sounding system I've ever heard. BRAVO!

I enjoyed our meet today. Thanks for the tips on my build.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Gadget01 said:


> Todd, this car is *the* best sounding system I've ever heard. BRAVO!
> 
> I enjoyed our meet today. Thanks for the tips on my build.


Thanks, and it was great to hang out with you guys! I look forward to that happening a lot more often!

Thanks for the kudos!
-T


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Todd-

I'm contemplating a similar sub installation as I want large cone area without the giant box in my hatch. My main concern was exposure to the elements with a hole in the spare well. I was trying to figure out what material to use. I was thinking of fish tank filter foam as it is very porous and should pass air through very well yet block any 'splashing' water. You mentioned using some sort of carpet as the interface between cabin and atmosphere. Did you source something particular? It seems to me that carpet, in general, would yield little air flow and be too restrictive. This clearly isn't the case in your install so can you provide some more info on the material and why you chose it please?

Amazing installation. Simply amazing.



-Steve


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

captainobvious said:


> Todd-
> 
> I'm contemplating a similar sub installation as I want large cone area without the giant box in my hatch. My main concern was exposure to the elements with a hole in the spare well. I was trying to figure out what material to use. I was thinking of fish tank filter foam as it is very porous and should pass air through very well yet block any 'splashing' water. You mentioned using some sort of carpet as the interface between cabin and atmosphere. Did you source something particular? It seems to me that carpet, in general, would yield little air flow and be too restrictive. This clearly isn't the case in your install so can you provide some more info on the material and why you chose it please?
> 
> ...


Grill cloth, and then soak it in scotchgaurd. I had 4 10s in the spare tie well of my Eclipse that vented out the bottom this way.
metal mesh grill, covered in grill cloth that was soaked in scotchgaurd


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Mic10is said:


> Grill cloth, and then soak it in scotchgaurd. I had 4 10s in the spare tie well of my Eclipse that vented out the bottom this way.
> metal mesh grill, covered in grill cloth that was soaked in scotchgaurd


Awesome, thanks Mic.


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

I used 5/8" thick air cleaner foam with air clear oil. Makes a breathable waterproof membrane. U can find the foam sheets on ebay and the oil at any place that sells motorcycles. 

I housed this inside a plastic grill type panel with wing nuts so I can replace the filter when needed. 



Posted from my Samsung Galaxy S III 32gb via tapatalk 2.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

captainobvious said:


> Todd-
> 
> I'm contemplating a similar sub installation as I want large cone area without the giant box in my hatch. My main concern was exposure to the elements with a hole in the spare well. I was trying to figure out what material to use. I was thinking of fish tank filter foam as it is very porous and should pass air through very well yet block any 'splashing' water. You mentioned using some sort of carpet as the interface between cabin and atmosphere. Did you source something particular? It seems to me that carpet, in general, would yield little air flow and be too restrictive. This clearly isn't the case in your install so can you provide some more info on the material and why you chose it please?
> 
> ...


The carpet seemed like an OK idea so I tried it. It's glued down to the grating so it doesn't flap, and I have an 18" diameter hole through the floor of the car for this thing to breathe through. It appears to work, so I haven't questioned it. It does very much appear as though everyone else has though. Use what seems like the best plan to you. If it doesn't work...try something else! Mic had success with grille cloth. I have success with thin unbacked carpet. Others have had success with open celled foam. Mark Eldridge used OC foam in the 4runner for example. So far I haven't read of anyone having a materials problem that made a sufficiently large hole, but I have heard of issues when the hole's too small. Make the hole big and the baffle rigid and it looks like everything else works out in the wash so to speak.

Good luck!


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

highly said:


> The carpet seemed like an OK idea so I tried it. It's glued down to the grating so it doesn't flap, and I have an 18" diameter hole through the floor of the car for this thing to breathe through. It appears to work, so I haven't questioned it. It does very much appear as though everyone else has though. Use what seems like the best plan to you. If it doesn't work...try something else! Mic had success with grille cloth. I have success with thin unbacked carpet. Others have had success with open celled foam. Mark Eldridge used OC foam in the 4runner for example. So far I haven't read of anyone having a materials problem that made a sufficiently large hole, but I have heard of issues when the hole's too small. Make the hole big and the baffle rigid and it looks like everything else works out in the wash so to speak.
> 
> Good luck!


Sounds good to me, thanks for taking the time to respond.


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## Dmack (Mar 6, 2008)

I can tell you first hand that Todd and his car are the real deal! I have never heard a car with his imaging and sound stage characteristics. Not only that, but Todd is a class act. Thanks, again, for all the support in Conway. I thank you and my car thanks you!

Davy


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Any time, Davy! Glad you like how things went given the short time I had with it


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## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

I gotta find you guys I am way up in no mans land !


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

If you see an opening and make plans to head down just hit us up here and we'll do what we can to accommodate! C'mon down!

-T


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Lots of little changes going into the car but progress has been slow. Set Saturday aside and finished up one portion of the build, though...










These are seat frames from a Subaru STi. They have been sliced up into little pieces along with the factory seats, then reassembled into the frankenstinean monsters you see here. The seat bases bolt in as factory and retain the factory height adjustment while updating to the look and feel of a better built seat. Unlike 'racing' seats, these are actually comfortable enough for daily use. They are well enough bolstered to hold the listener in position, but fit full sized judges comfortably. The tall, wide headrest is less resonant than the old seats and does a better job controlling reflections in the cabin from reaching the listener's ear. 

I did the digitizing work for the logo embroidery, my wonderful wife handled operation of the embroidery machine, and I took care of all metal, foam, fabric and tailoring of the seats. They were a LOT of work, but well worth it!

-T


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)




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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

badass


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Thanks, Mic!


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## jowens500 (Sep 5, 2008)

I've sat my butt in one, they're damn nice. Good job Todd!


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

woah.... Just read from page 1 to this! Incredible! This car and Highly himself have been on such a journey already. A refreshing read really!

Todd, do you have a thread for your other build?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

sydmonster said:


> woah.... Just read from page 1 to this! Incredible! This car and Highly himself have been on such a journey already. A refreshing read really!
> 
> Todd, do you have a thread for your other build?


Thanks, sydmonster!
No, I don't have a thread up for the other build - mostly because nothing audio-related is actually done yet. Lots and lots of engine, transmission, and suspension work have been done. The entire interior is gutted and lots of metal has been moved but there is a long way to go before it's ready to start in on the audio portion of the build. At the current rate of motion I'd say two years to sound? When things get to that point I may toss a build-to-date log up. Things may pick up a good bit after Finals this season as the GTi will no longer be competing for awhile to give me some time to catch up on all of the other projects that have taken a backseat over the last few years.

Maybe the new car will be back to compete. Maybe it'll just be a nasty daily driver instead. Only time will tell!

-T


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

I sure can relate to that! My current BMW project is onto its second year and it doesn't even have any seats or dash board... so the feeling is indeed mutual.

Thanks for continuing to share with us all!


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

highly said:


> .....Between the mechanical changes to the sub's immediate environment, acoustical changes to the back half of the car, and tuning I have managed to finally slay the bass daemon in this car.
> 
> .....
> 
> ...


Very interested in the changes you mention here!
My MKIV has some issues as well, I'm wondering if we have similar problems.

Thanks for all your efforts documenting your build, I've learned a bunch 

-Jazzi


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

So what exactly were you running for equipment when I heard it?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

its all JL


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

BowDown said:


> So what exactly were you running for equipment when I heard it?


JL ZR 100-CW
JL ZR 650-CW
JL ZR 800-CW
AE IB15
2x JL HD600/4
1x JL HD750/1
Rane RPM88
Pioneer P99 as a transport


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

AE IB or FI IB3?

Jay


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

AEIB15


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

D'oh. Fixored :blush:


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Cool. I thought it was an FI at one point, but didn't know if it still was.
Your car had me seriously considering an IB 15 in the spare tire well to the outside, but I chickened out and decided to start with a sealed 10. lol

Jay


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

highly said:


> JL ZR 100-CW
> JL ZR 650-CW
> JL ZR 800-CW
> AE IB15
> ...


No tweeters?


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

quality_sound said:


> No tweeters?


JL ZR 100-CT (not cw, minor typo)


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

pocket5s said:


> JL ZR 100-CT (not cw, minor typo)


Thanks, Robert!
-T


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Ahhhh, I was thinking that, but didn't want to make assumptions. Especially since your car doesn't exactly follow convention.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> Ahhhh, I was thinking that, but didn't want to make assumptions. Especially since your car doesn't exactly follow convention.


Nah. Just me trying to get it right by including the complete name of the driver (that I never use...the name. I never use all of the name) and just getting it wrong instead.  ZR100 would have been just fine, but nooooo.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

highly said:


> Nah. Just me trying to get it right by including the complete name of the driver (that I never use...the name. I never use all of the name) and just getting it wrong instead.  ZR100 would have been just fine, but nooooo.


There's always one of us... lol


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)




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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

32 clickety clackety relays. Gotta go!









2 more in the DD10. Gone!









Zero relays in the system after those changes. Muuuuch quieter on startup!

Yay, quiet!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Panels and panels and panels! That was a lot of vinyl. After it was all said and done I had no remnants as big as a square foot. I cut it pretty close.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Then on to the body modifications. 























































Hood pull, prep, weld, fill, sand, paint and wrap in less than 24 hours.


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

I don't recognize the board you are removing the relays from. Are you soldering jumper wires in their place? What is that from?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Then we top it off with a matching lid...



















First time playing with vinyl. It wasn't too bad once I stopped treating it nice.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Man, I haven't seen a boeser is FOREVER. Let alone a metal one. Nicely done. Are you worried that the paint didn't fully cure before wrapping? The hatch work looks SICK!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Jazzi said:


> I don't recognize the board you are removing the relays from. Are you soldering jumper wires in their place? What is that from?


The analog I/O board from the RPM88. If it isn't familiar then it really doesn't matter though


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> Man, I haven't seen a boeser is FOREVER. Let alone a metal one. Nicely done. Are you worried that the paint didn't fully cure before wrapping? The hatch work looks SICK!


Thank you. I HATE WAXOIL!!! Welding a VW part treated with waxoil is one of the best experiences in self control ever. Every tack you make blows through no matter the power because the waxoil expands as the metal is molten, catches fire, and blows a 6" long flame out the hole. Then as the metal cools into a stalactite and forms a little nipple, waxoil bleeds out the hole and compromises the next weld spot. 

I'm not worried. The wrap went on because this happened 3 days before the drive to Finals and I had no time to paint, cure, sand and polish! LOL. The bodywork is enough of a mess (a previous accident) that the whole car needs a good seeing-to. When and if that happens, I'll deal with it again.

This is the first real bodywork I've ever done on a car. Warning: DO NOT start here!!! 

-T


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Excellent work my friend.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

So... a lot of firsts for me in this build-out. I've never attempted anything of this scale before, and I wanted to take the time to learn what not to do. I pretty well covered ALL the dont's along the way but pulled it together anyway. I had 2-part foam that turned to goo instead of curing. Metal that shoots flames when welded. $350 high power alternator that stops working after a month of use. Miscutting the $100 sticker job because I forgot to flip the image. Failure to account for material thickness when gapping parts. If it could have gone sideways along the way, it did! But I learned. A lot. And thanks to a Government shutdown and some acrylic nail powder, I made it to Finals assembled and complete for the first time. Everything worked. Nothing made noise. Nothing broke no matter how hard I tried to break it. 

No plan. No clue. No skills, but plenty of tenacity. Got the job done!

-T


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## tintbox (Oct 25, 2008)

Todd you are my HERO! Awesome install and out of this world soundstage!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Excellent work my friend.





tintbox said:


> Todd you are my HERO! Awesome install and out of this world soundstage!


Thanks for all the input along the way. You guys have kept me moving on it when I wanted to burn it all to the ground. Without the last second saves along the way it never would have happened!

-T


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

Your skills are showing through... Excellent sound stage in your car! Hell even your email based suggestions are carrying the awesomeness over to my car.  

Bit of l/r tweaking just leaves me in awe now. Wish I talked with u earlier. Lol. 



Posted from my Samsung Galaxy S III 32gb via tapatalk 2.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

highly said:


> So... a lot of firsts for me in this build-out. I've never attempted anything of this scale before, and I wanted to take the time to learn what not to do. I pretty well covered ALL the dont's along the way but pulled it together anyway.
> 
> I had 2-part foam that turned to goo instead of curing. *The event inspired one of Bob Ross' most famous paintings, Northern Lights.*
> 
> ...


No skills? Puh-leez.

You don't make mistakes, you only make new rules. 

"I don't always screw up, but when I do...


... I still don't screw up."- Todd Luliak

Just when I thought you were done with the VW... Well done as usual. I only wish I had your natural talent... if I did, my car wouldn't look like it does :laugh: 

So what's next?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

millerlyte said:


> No skills? Puh-leez.
> 
> You don't make mistakes, you only make new rules.
> 
> ...



He has another VW that is his real comp car


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Forget the next VW, wait till you see what's next... something "just for fun" too.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Here I am 'testing' the Halloween candy when I read Ally's post and I swear I shot a grape Nerd out my freaking nose from laughing so hard.

Thanks, Ally 

Yeah, I have some stuff I'm thinking about. We'll see what comes out the other side, I guess.  I promise it will be fun for sure


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

highly said:


> Thank you. I HATE WAXOIL!!! Welding a VW part treated with waxoil is one of the best experiences in self control ever. Every tack you make blows through no matter the power because the waxoil expands as the metal is molten, catches fire, and blows a 6" long flame out the hole. Then as the metal cools into a stalactite and forms a little nipple, waxoil bleeds out the hole and compromises the next weld spot.
> 
> I'm not worried. The wrap went on because this happened 3 days before the drive to Finals and I had no time to paint, cure, sand and polish! LOL. The bodywork is enough of a mess (a previous accident) that the whole car needs a good seeing-to. When and if that happens, I'll deal with it again.
> 
> ...


You welded a VW WITHOUT degreasing it??? Props, Todd. They SLATHERED the MkIVs with that crap. It usually leaks out of the doors when it gets hot because they used so much. lol


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> You welded a VW WITHOUT degreasing it??? Props, Todd. They SLATHERED the MkIVs with that crap. It usually leaks out of the doors when it gets hot because they used so much. lol


How do you degrease the front hood seam?! LOL! It's Seam Sealed, rolled, pinched and friggin frackin frelling hard to clean. I swished it out, but that did basically nothing but rinse a little Local Red Dirt out... OK, well...
BZZZZZZZZZZZAP! <Foof!> wet towel...Tssssss!
BZZZZZZZZZZZAP! <Foof!> wet towel...Tssssss!
BZZZZZZZZZZZAP! <Foof!> wet towel...Tssssss!

and so it went...


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Most people either unroll the seam or cut it off.  

How long did that take? Had to have been a few days to get a full bead.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> Most people either unroll the seam or cut it off.
> 
> How long did that take? Had to have been a few days to get a full bead.


I alternated tacks between the left and right, top seam and bottom to keep it straight as I could tacking every half inch or so. Repeated the process until I connected the tacks together. In the end it only needed a little dolly work to smooth out the edge. I started in the morning and it was in final primer and blocked out that night. Vinyl went on the next morning!


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

highly said:


> 32 clickety clackety relays. Gotta go!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sooo, did the relays not really serve a purpose, or did you replace them with solid state relays or something? 

I can't wait to see your "real" competition car. lol

Jay


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

JayinMI said:


> Sooo, did the relays not really serve a purpose, or did you replace them with solid state relays or something?
> 
> I can't wait to see your "real" competition car. lol
> 
> Jay


The relays in the Rane88 are for the input section. The large yellow double pole relays enable the 15v phantom power for microphones (which this device will never see) and the reed relays select input sensitivity pads to adjust the input level. Since I will never use mic levels or consumer (1v p/p) level inputs, I was free to jumper my selections permanently. I still have full digital control of level inside the selected sensitivity band but can no longer make software selection to a higher sensitivity.

The DD10 got two Darlingtons rated at 15A each per relay (4 total), vastly exceeding the rating of the original relays and keeping the transistors themselves cool. Because they used a switched ground to enable the relays, I chose PNP devices for a simplified replacement. Total draw through the DD10 is about 5A in my install, so I was able to run the transistors without sinks. 

The power supply is a dual redundant design capable of running the Rane even if there is a supply failure. It is enclosed in a small 127 thermocouple TEC refrigerated box to keep it cool. The TEC cools the air in the cool box and convection cools the supply. The hot side of the TEC has a large heat sink that is physically outside the cabin and is passively cooled. This way I can feel certain I will not have a problem demoing hard on a warm 110 degree Oklahoma day. There is a ducted fan that draws air through the Rane itself, but it's overkill as the DSP itself runs fairly cool. That is on a touch switch near the Wifi router and the LED lighting switches. They are appropriately labelled Bacon. Why Bacon? Because the Legend has a knob labelled "SQ" and Ben likes to mention it. Now when Ben brings up his SQ knob, I can tell him he may indeed have an SQ knob, but I've got three Bacon buttons. Everyone knows three bacon buttons beats an essque knob. 


















Hope that helps 

-Todd


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

highly said:


> The relays in the Rane88 are for the input section. The large yellow double pole relays enable the 15v phantom power for microphones (which this device will never see) and the reed relays select input sensitivity pads to adjust the input level. Since I will never use mic levels or consumer (1v p/p) level inputs, I was free to jumper my selections permanently. I still have full digital control of level inside the selected sensitivity band but can no longer make software selection to a higher sensitivity.
> 
> The DD10 got two Darlingtons rated at 15A each per relay (4 total), vastly exceeding the rating of the original relays and keeping the transistors themselves cool. Because they used a switched ground to enable the relays, I chose PNP devices for a simplified replacement. Total draw through the DD10 is about 5A in my install, so I was able to run the transistors without sinks.
> 
> ...


Mmm, bacon buttons....


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Makes perfect sense. I figured they must serve some purpose, or there wouldn't be so many of them, lol. Generally if you just basically removed that many relays from a product, it wouldn't work! haha

Jay


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

OK. So playing catch-up here on some pics and descriptions.

The sub tub and duct. I’ve had a lot of questions about this, so hopefully it helps explain what is going on here. At one point when the car was torn down driving with nothing but a dash, steering wheel, and driver’s seat in it for a rewire I had a 13tw5 in a little box in the car for sub duty. Every couple of days I’d relocate it to a different place and practice tuning it. I noticed that when it was placed smack dab in the middle of the passenger seat, the dang thing disappeared sonically and had a much smoother response in the car. I attributed this to moving the sub away from the room boundaries reducing the coupling to the vehicle and reducing the room modes that were excited. Unfortunately, the spot is directly above the gas tank in the car and smack dab in the middle of what was the install. I filed this interesting factoid aside for later pondering.

Fast forward to about a year later. I’ve cut a huge hole in the chassis for 2012 state finals to try to get the low end extension I’ve been after and to try to outscore Mark at state finals a second time. That worked just fine, but the sub had to be kept crossed pretty low or the while cabin would light up. It was the off season at this point, so I decided to try something different. My thought was that if I could make a duct large enough to prevent significant loading of the driver, I might be able to make the sub:car interface react as if the sub was physically placed in the center of the car. I took some measurements, did some math, and fiddled with some simulations then went to town. Here’s what came of it:


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

First I had to try to make the sub:car interface more rigid. At high volumes, the structure simply didn’t have the rigidity to prevent movement of the (at the time) Fi’s massive cone. So I built half a box.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

The hole is just a window. The foam helps reduce any errant road and muffler noise from entering into the cabin through the sub’s cone. The difference is barely discernible, but it also looks good through the window so it stayed. The MDF tub was fiberglassed with one layer – the tub doesn’t get any appreciable air pressure built up in it during use… it’s just a ‘sound funnel’ in that respect. These pictures show the Fi 18 in The Hole.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

Wow. That's pretty freaking cool 

P.S., I think "tubwoofer" has a nice ring to it


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Chris (Lacombe, Team Hybrids) was fond of calling it a half-order enclosure. I don't know wtf it really is, but I do know it works. Well. This car was crap for bass control with everything else I'd tried requiring crazy Linkwitz-like EQ sculpting to get things sounding respectable. Now... I have a single 2dB cut at 45 with a BW of 1. <shrugs>

-T


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

highly said:


> Chris (Lacombe, Team Hybrids) was fond of calling it a half-order enclosure. I don't know wtf it really is, but I do know it works. Well. This car was crap for bass control with everything else I'd tried requiring crazy Linkwitz-like EQ sculpting to get things sounding respectable. Now... I have a single 2dB cut at 45 with a BW of 1.
> 
> -T


Hmm, I will call it a tubwoofer blowthrough in a hatchback


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

I have a video of Todd explaing the sub a bit more. I will post shortly with his Blessing.

Todd I don't think you are really any good at car audio and this is all staged to hide the fact that you are kidnapping, miniaturizing and installing actual musicians inside your dash board. That sax I heard was REAL man!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

that theory is a whole lot easier to grasp than the one where he just made his car sound good with work.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Sub control is an understatement. That thing made his car BOUNCE, literally!! All I have to say is Jurrasic Lunch...


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)




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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

^ In that video - please account for the fact that I'm explaining what I did and why I believe I did it off the cuff. I wasn't paying any attention to being recorded. Don't hold me to <every> word like it was a doctoral thesis, mmmkay?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

My MkVI has the EXACT same issues you were having. If I didn't need my hatch and back seat...


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> My MkVI has the EXACT same issues you were having. If I didn't need my hatch and back seat...


Then why go low in the chassis? Why does the bass have to originate low? Why not bass from above?



If my car didn't have a sunroof...


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

highly said:


> ^ In that video - please account for the fact that I'm explaining what I did and why I believe I did it off the cuff. I wasn't paying any attention to being recorded. Don't hold me to <every> word like it was a doctoral thesis, mmmkay?



Tweeters go tweet
Sub goes boom
but there's one sound that no one knows
@ 2:01 What does the cone say?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

millerlyte said:


> Tweeters go tweet
> Sub goes boom
> but there's one sound that no one knows
> @ 2:01 What does the cone say?


Whooh whooh whooh, of course


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

highly said:


> Then why go low in the chassis? Why does the bass have to originate low? Why not bass from above?
> 
> 
> 
> If my car didn't have a sunroof...


So is that the secret for the next build? 42nd order bandpass with a 21" sub and 7 tuned passive radiators hidden in the headliner?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

highly said:


> Then why go low in the chassis? Why does the bass have to originate low? Why not bass from above?
> 
> 
> 
> If my car didn't have a sunroof...


I have a GSD that's 37" at the withers and weighs 97 pounds that goes in the back seat. The roof isn't really an option for me. lol


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

millerlyte said:


> Tweeters go tweet
> Sub goes boom
> but there's one sound that no one knows
> @ 2:01 What does the cone say?


I can't even tell you how much I don't get that song. lol


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> I have a GSD that's 37" at the withers and weighs 97 pounds that goes in the back seat. The roof isn't really an option for me. lol


I was thinking something like a 13tw5 in a long thin box over the hatch area firing into a thin, wide duct to the vehicle center. You can get 4" tall by more than 2' wide between the roof rails. That'd do it, and I bet you could do it very very close to the current headliner height. 

You wouldn't be sitting 6'2" tall adults back there again though. Not that you can now...for long.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

ultra cool build!! The IB set up reminds me of of when I had mine blowing through the bottom of the spare well but the a loading board over the front. I should have played with that a fair bit more.


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## FrankstonCarAudio (Feb 2, 2008)

sydmonster said:


> ultra cool build!! The IB set up reminds me of of when I had mine blowing through the bottom of the spare well but the a loading board over the front. I should have played with that a fair bit more.


Yes, you should have! 

Lovin' the build so far, Highly


Mark


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

ha!! cheers Mark.

I'll live it vicariously through Todd's build.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Well, this car is DONE. Finished. Complete. 
I may try some things here and there - there are some minor modifications I have in mind for the sub. I will likely change the AE back to the Fi for non-competition use. I like to get down with it sometimes, and I like some of what the Fi brings to the party. The AE is MUCH more accurate, but the FI gets DOWN. I may also play around with re-aiming the mids sometime in the distant future to play with some thoughts I have on two seat...just to see. 

The GTi is done competing*. I won't say retired, but I'm taking some time away to focus on other projects for awhile. I'll probably show up randomly at shows in the area to demo the car, but I have no intent to take it to a Finals event. Unless I stumble upon something that is REALLY different in my research that is a serious departure from the norm. I think cars like John's Murano and Erin's Honda will take over for the GTi in the lanes and soon surpass her, and to be quite honest I need the break!

Overall I am astounded at how much better the cars at Finals sounded from last year. People have really stepped it up more than just a notch over the season. Seriously impressive. I do think that to take things much further, though, someone is going to have to get REALLY creative with future comp builds. I think that we're reaching the pinnacle of how far we can go with our current thinking. We may have room for maybe 1-3 points on top of the best of the best out there. Without a serious rethink, I'm suspecting that 5 points on top of them is unlikely.

I do think that tomorrow's winning cars will have to start looking backwards to move forward. We've really taken the DSP-based setups about as far as it will get us, and in doing so many of the cars have left behind some of what made the OS cars great. I'm betting we start seeing some DSP optimized old school concept cars pop up soon to really step things up to the next level, especially in the higher classes. I'm betting it's going to be really interesting either way!

My final thought on the state of competition today. We need more two seat cars. SQ2 and SQ2+ in MECA are WAY too thin. Most of the two seat cars I heard at Finals are nowhere near what we do in one seat, and one of the most impressive two seat stages I heard was from a car with zero DSP. I know the challenges we face in making 2-seat work well, but face it...we've done what can be done in one seat for the most part. Maybe it's time we take on the real elephant in the room head on and see where it leads us. A challenge? Absolutely. But look what we've accomplished so far in these cars. With work, I think we can do better 

-T


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Strangely, I was flipping through some old issues of CA&E and Car Stereo Review and noticed that back in the day (a Wednesday, in case you didn't know), a lot of the big cars were running much simpler set ups. Good 6's/tweets or 6's/horns, a few were even running 5" comps and smaller subs like 10's and 12's. Now were doing 8's and 10's up front, 15's and 18's IB 6" in the dash! 

I'd really be curious to see/hear how some of those OS cars would do against some of the current crop of cars. 

How about we get Richard Clark's GN and Mark Eldridge's NASCAR and have them go head to head? That'd be kinda cool. Probably never happen...but it would still be cool.

Jay


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

JayinMI said:


> Strangely, I was flipping through some old issues of CA&E and Car Stereo Review and noticed that back in the day (a Wednesday, in case you didn't know), a lot of the big cars were running much simpler set ups. Good 6's/tweets or 6's/horns, a few were even running 5" comps and smaller subs like 10's and 12's. Now were doing 8's and 10's up front, 15's and 18's IB 6" in the dash!
> 
> I'd really be curious to see/hear how some of those OS cars would do against some of the current crop of cars.
> 
> ...


Didn't the GN have 10 or 12" midbasses behind you and 15" subs behind that?  

My point was not so much about driver size and the trend towards low efficiency small box drivers, but more that we've eschewed some significant acoustically-driven realities for the 'fix it in the DSP' mindset. I think the next big step forward will be rethinking how we marry those two different worlds together to leverage the best of both of them. We create serious and significant acoustical problems with some of the design methodologies we employ today and tell ourselves we can 'fix that with the DSP'. What would the results be like if we...uh...didn't mess it up so bad to begin with? 

-T


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

highly said:


> Didn't the GN have 10 or 12" midbasses behind you and 15" subs behind that?
> 
> My point was not so much about driver size and the trend towards low efficiency small box drivers, but more that we've eschewed some significant acoustically-driven realities for the 'fix it in the DSP' mindset. I think the next big step forward will be rethinking how we marry those two different worlds together to leverage the best of both of them. We create serious and significant acoustical problems with some of the design methodologies we employ today and tell ourselves we can 'fix that with the DSP'. What would the results be like if we...uh...didn't mess it up so bad to begin with?
> 
> -T


That's been my design philosophy since day one. A philosophy that some here took issue with. I have been told everything from it's "stupid" to "you are severely limiting yourself" in both my wish to not use DSP and to go 2-seat. My avoidance of DSP was monetary to some degree, but my thoughts are that if you can get excellent results through physical placement alone, than DSP should only serve to get that last few %. I might be fooling myself here, but since I am going after 2-seat from the start, physical location and driver selection as the main emphasis makes more sense to me. My general feeling is that many get away with a hell of a lot when it comes to driver placement these days because everything can be fixed with DSP. And if you are only considering a 1-seat setup, the situation becomes even more skewed. I also think you learn a lot more about the physics of driver placement and acoustics of the environment when you do not have the crutch of DSP to lean on. But I will probably get heat for those comments...

BTW, your build is awesome. Since I am doing a custom dash and an oddball sub install, I know just how much work it takes. I think I am only 1/4 of the way there, and it has taken eons. Tons of work, tons of dedication and sacrifice. Thanks for the inspiration.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

I was told that most of what I did in my car would never work. It may NOT work in other cars, but that is no reason not to try and to learn. Failure is a very valuable lesson that I am quite comfortable learning.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Like Todd, I choose to get whatever I can right in the analog domain before DSP. Not necessarily in the same context he's speaking of here, though. This may not be the direction Todd intended to steer his conversation, but I firmly believe in using drivers that have a smooth response on and off axis and using the correct crossover points/slopes to blend drivers. the less the speaker becomes non-linear and the less gap you have in the sound power response of your speakers, the less you have to use a DSP to tame modal issues or try to gain back things you lost due to a hole in the response (which you can't do). Using this simple constraint saves you a TON of headaches later down the line.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

OK, maybe the Grand National was a bad example. lol
But that's what I was getting at. I agree, if we did more with speaker placement and aiming, and less with DSP, would it get even better?


If I was building a car strictly for comps, I'd buy a relatively inexpensive mid sized car and gut the interior so I could put speakers where they need to go, but in my daily I'll rely more on DSP because I can't necessarily put stuff where I'd like without making major mods to a car I'd like to be able to trade in at some point. lol

Jay


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I hear ya. No one learns if they always get everything right the first time. I've learned a few things already and I haven't done nearly as much as you have. The biggest things so far - I am NOT a fan of off-axis mids and tweeters, I love lots of power, high efficiency drivers are absolutely fantastic. I can't wait to get my horns in the car.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> I hear ya. No one learns if they always get everything right the first time. I've learned a few things already and I haven't done nearly as much as you have. The biggest things so far - I am NOT a fan of off-axis mids and tweeters, I love lots of power, high efficiency drivers are absolutely fantastic. I can't wait to get my horns in the car.


Ah, yes. Horns...
I'm gonna have to try something with horns one day.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

When will you get to the part of the install where you reveal the hidden onion peals that are used to evoke a physiological response to listening to your system?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> When will you get to the part of the install where you reveal the hidden onion peals that are used to evoke a physiological response to listening to your system?


Ha ha ha ha!
Actually, I vape Love Potion Number Nine while people are getting a demo to make them fall in love with it. Some folks just fall a little harder than others, that's all. Nothing wrong with that  

-T


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

highly said:


> Ha ha ha ha!
> Actually, I vape Love Potion Number Nine while people are getting a demo to make them fall in love with it. Some folks just fall a little harder than others, that's all. Nothing wrong with that
> 
> -T


Damnit! That explains a lot. 



Posted from my Samsung Galaxy S III 32gb via tapatalk 2.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

So here’s the deal with the displays on the side. I wanted something a little different that showed of the team and equipment logos for the car. Something that popped a little bit to try to garner a little more attention from passerby. When my install was fairly stealth with the dash build, kicks, etc., people who didn’t know the car walked right on by. They’d peer in the door, decide this must be a ‘stock’ car, and walk away. It was a little disheartening to be honest. So I wanted something in the install that REALLY popped. Something unique enough to at least get people to slow down a minute.










Here’s the graphic I came up with. This was done in illustrator on two different layers – one for each color. The idea was to create a selective overlay of each logo. I’d then have each layer cut individually in frost vinyl and adhere them with perfect registration on two different layers of plexiglass. I could then illuminate each layer with a different color to produce two color graphics. What could possibly go wrong?! 

First of all there’s registration. Lining up one graphic over the other so that the edges, when viewed straight on, would overlay properly. This all seems like cake if you’ve never done it before. What I didn’t account for was the opacity of the masking tape layer they put over the graphic to help with transfer. It is extremely difficult to align the four corner registration marks to align the graphic to the millimeter when you can’t see through the mask. I tried holding it up to the light, but the light passing through the plexiglass cast a shadow. Eventually I found that if you use a VERY bright light in a dark room and you STEP BACK from the light source, the shadow will go from soft to in focus and you will have a sharp edge to work from. 

I used the wet hinge method to apply the graphic. Basically, I aligned the graphic and backing paper on the plex. When I had it just right, I put a piece of masking tape along one edge of the graphic. I then peeled the mask and graphic from the backing sheet without removing the hinge tape. I sprayed it and the cleaned plex with water with a drop of baby shampoo in it. This gives me a little bit of wiggle room once it’s layed down. I then hinged the graphic onto the plexiglass and went to my light source. I gently relocated the graphic for perfect alignment with my registration marks on the plex, then squeegeed the water out.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

This method worked well. If you use too much water, the masking tape starts breaking down during the squeegee process. Too little and it sticks and that’s that. Once it is on, it’s on. 

Once you are sure you have all the water out, you start to peel…only to then realize there’s still a thin film of water under the graphic and it isn’t sticking! You then adopt a peel-and-dab method of pulling ¼” of the backing off, dabbing the water out, peeling, dabbing…peeling, dabbing.. 

It took FOREVER to apply 4 pieces. Now it’s time to light it up!

The factory illumination in a MKIV VW is red and blue, so that was my original intent. I knew that there was some potential for color mixing here, so when I made the graphic I intentionally had some layers that were doubled; both the upper and lower layers had fill in the graphic. If the colors mixed well, I could potentially have 3 colors for the price of two. If not, I could selectively remove portions of one layer to get pure colors instead. 

Now anyone that has messed with colored light knows that red and blue make purple. Well, not here. No, here red and blue make hot pink!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Not at all what I was after. In order to get the two layers as close as possible to each other to prevent 3-D parallax, I went with very very thin plexiglass. 1/8” thick. Very thin plexiglass requires very thin LEDs to edgelight. I found some very very low profile edge-firing LEDs at SuperBright at the bargain price of $16.00 PER STRIP. Oh. My. Gawd. I <knew> there was a chance of mixing, and I didn’t want to be pidgeonholed at the last minute, so I had some decisions to make. Order two colors – red and blue and be stuck with the result or order three – red, white, and blue… and have some wiggle room. Well, $95.55 later, two each red, white, and blue LED strips were on their way to me.

Good thing I didn’t cheap out, eh?

So the red and blue making hot pink wasn’t awesome. Very Breast Cancer Awareness Month, as one of my honest friends mentioned on seeing the pictures. 










Blue and white, individually lit.










Overlayed with the background layer










and framed up!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Framed is the right term here as well. I made the frame like you would a picture frame. The backing layer to the plex is a piece of ¼” expanded PVC sheet covered in headliner material. The headliner gives that little foam ‘spring’ to maintain tension and – therefore – silence in the face of bass.  The layers were held in place with Glazing points. 










The display even looks good with the lights out providing a dimensional, frosted appearance that goes well with the Elephant and Grey section.










Altogether the displays were damn expensive.
Plastic order, cut to size: $56.18
LEDs: $95.55
Vinyl cut with the idiot operating illustrator forgetting to flip the damn images: $100
Corrected vinyl cut: $80
Total: $331.73. And I did all the actual work myself!
But…people stopped to look. And talk. And LISTEN.

VERY special thanks to Ken at Midwest Decals for working with me through this entire process even though he was solidly convinced I was completely nuts, and then taking pity on me when I realized the horrible mistake I'd made not flipping the graphic. He's a great guy and the shop is _Highly_ recommended!


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Sweet. A lot of the times it's the seemingly simple things that take all the time and money. Especially when it has to be perfect. 

The car looked and sounded great at finals. Glad to finally see it "complete".


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

strakele said:


> Sweet. A lot of the times it's the seemingly simple things that take all the time and money. Especially when it has to be perfect.
> 
> The car looked and sounded great at finals. Glad to finally see it "complete".


Thanks, I appreciate that! I'm happy it's done as well. I'm already all excited to finally start the next project! Giddy, even


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I had no idea you had that much money wrapped up in that project alone. Yikes!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> I had no idea you had that much money wrapped up in that project alone. Yikes!


Yeah. I try not to think about it. Compared to what my team sponsors did to help with the cost of the build - JL and XS Power especially - I feel the expense is justified for advertising... but it wasn't cheap at all. 

Looks great though, huh?! :laugh:

-T


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

You could have just charged a nickel per demo and had your money back, plus gas to get you home. And a Happy Meal for dinner.


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

highly said:


> Yeah. I try not to think about it. Compared to what my team sponsors did to help with the cost of the build - JL and XS Power especially - I feel the expense is justified for advertising... but it wasn't cheap at all.
> 
> Looks great though, huh?! :laugh:
> 
> -T


Yes it does. Thank you for sharing that part of the build, as I was planning on asking about it.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

millerlyte said:


> You could have just charged a nickel per demo and had your money back, plus gas to get you home. And a Happy Meal for dinner.


OOOH! I coulda hadda Happy Meal? Nobody said I coulda hadda Happy Meal. Now I'm sad I don't have a Happy Meal 



If I had a dollar for every time someone said I should be charging for demos that weekend... I could have had a Magic Bus ride


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

I only stopped to listen cause John told me to. 







Good thing I listened to him. AMAZING!!! Simply amazing!


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## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

highly said:


> OOOH! I coulda hadda Happy Meal? Nobody said I coulda hadda Happy Meal. Now I'm sad I don't have a Happy Meal
> 
> 
> 
> If I had a dollar for every time someone said I should be charging for demos that weekend... I could have had a Magic Bus ride


I don't think you need to pay to have a MAGIC BUS ride... You just need to be at a SoCal GTG...


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## jpeezy (Feb 5, 2012)

as far as the mounting of the speakers in the firewall area,steve brown from alpine did this many years ago in his acura, he too did very well in competition.love this build,fantastic work! the ib setup is very cool too,wanted to do this in my xb2 but not to many shallow fifteens that will work in this configuration, (only have about 7 inches to deal with).Great Work thanks for sharing.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

His Acura had dash and door drivers.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

jpeezy said:


> as far as the mounting of the speakers in the firewall area,steve brown from alpine did this many years ago in his acura, he too did very well in competition.love this build,fantastic work! the ib setup is very cool too,wanted to do this in my xb2 but not to many shallow fifteens that will work in this configuration, (only have about 7 inches to deal with).Great Work thanks for sharing.


Umm... Thanks! I think...
There seemed as much 'yeah, others have done this before you' in there as there was praise for doing it well, so I guess you feel a little mixed about the car. Hey, that's cool man. Never said it was the first car ever of it's kind, but I will say that every choice I made in the car was done independently from the choices of others. I just went with what - after MUCH trial and testing - worked the best in it. 

If you are looking for a 15" IB sub that is 7" deep or less, I am pretty sure the AE 15 fits that bill or is damn close to it. The Hole was built for the FI 18, and that driver is simply massive in comparison to the AE. It's like 6 year old Billy running around the house in his daddy's pants. More than ample room to move 

However, there ARE other ways to get a similar result. IMHO, location testing - especially in cars already shown to be problematic - is just as important for subwoofers as for midranges. It's all about how the car reacts that matters!

Also as a side note, a pair of JL 13TW5s in IB or AP are simply brutal 

Have a great day, and thanks for dropping by!

-T


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

Thanks for the writeup on the plexi and lighting. I don't know jack squat about that but I'd like to have some nice lighting for my amp rack. You said you got the strips at SuperBright I think? I'll look them up. Any other tips?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Don't forget to flip the artwork to stick it to the back of the plexiglass. Expensive freaking mistake. LOL

-T


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

highly said:


> Don't forget to flip the artwork to stick it to the back of the plexiglass. Expensive freaking mistake. LOL
> 
> -T


It's a mistake you only make once. It's all downhill from there.


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## WAR Machine (Jan 13, 2014)

WOW I like this install man... Good quality work and attention to detail...


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## jsketoe (Aug 8, 2008)

just wanted to jump in and give kudos to a friend. Todd and I were on the same team years ago...a team neither of us are on now. I remember when he first started playing with the Rane and different approaches to tuning...I got to hear the car then and could see the potential in where it was going. The car I heard at 2013 Finals was awesome...Championship grade IMO. Todd's one of the folks I'm really glad I've made friends with along the journey of car audio nerd-dom.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Well Joe, your installs aren't exactly something to sneeze at either.


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## jpeezy (Feb 5, 2012)

No, was definitely complimenting, great minds think alike! sorry didnt word it quite well. I have been a big fan/proponent of this type of setup for the last 27 years. only wish I had a chance to hear such a well setup and tuned system. sorry did not mean to offend. Like I said great minds think alike.


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## Dmack (Mar 6, 2008)

I have to admit that I come back and look at this build every couple of months. I will now likely be viewing it even more often, with my upcoming Jetta dash build.


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