# Dayton Reference 10"HO



## chad

I received My 10"HO yesterday just as the test enclosure was completed. The enclosure is .673CuFe Including bracing but not including basket/cone displacement. I roughly estimated that I would have 2/3 CuFu to play with in a fiberglass enclosure later down the road. Its cold out now so opening the garage door and whipping up glass is out of the question. I needed tunes and wanted to see how the driver would sound in those confines.

Here's some pics of the enclosure both finished and unfinished. The bottle in the last pic is to give a size approximation and to convey my favorite nightcap  I really need to get a circle jig for my router as you can see, but it's a test box right?







Now for the driver:

I have held some substantial drivers before, some costing upwards of a thousand bucks. I must admit that for $100 that this is the best bang for the buck. There is great attention to detail and no rubber boot or other cosmetic ********, just a no frills driver. The rubber surround is thick, the cone is stiff and the construction is quite solid. Here are some pics of the driver.






And mounted up ready to go. Prior to mounting the enclosure was stuffed with just a tad less than 1Lb of polyfill. (sorry no pics of the white stuffing  ) Again, lets keep any comments about my inadequacies of cutting a perfectly round hole to ourselves 







So it went inside to the studio, I have no amp yet for the car, it's on the way, I may try it in the truck though this weekend if weather permits.

The unit is comparison is really "no comparison". My studio sub is an Electrovoice EVX180B in an Uber HUGE TL enclosure, it's very efficient and can handle anything I care to throw at from current available from a standard 20A AC wall outlet. It's X max is pretty close to that of the 10" Dayton so I have lots more air moving with it. Powering the low end is a bridged carver PM350 supplying 1KW into an 8 ohm load. I would suspect not much more into a 4 Ohm load due to commutator loss on the Carver design. The top end is powered with a Crown DC300A and consists of a pair of Urei 809A's. Crossover is Modified Rane AC22B (modified for a /2 crossover freq, and quieter op amps.)

I parked the Dayton next to the blehemoth, and turned to tops all the way off to listen for air leaks. I did a damn good job, the cab did not whisper at all. During big excursion I noticed NO foul noises from the driver and it did a good job rattling everything in the house. With music it was tight and accurate, it mated up nicely with the Urei's but I had to raise the XO a tad due to it's comparison's sensitivity in the upper bass. I also had to obviously turn the tops down too, by quite a lot to make up for the efficiency difference. The enclosure had great low end extension for it's size and I would not hesitate downsizing to a pair of these and a lot more power for the studio app. Main problem wiht the small enclosure is overall efficiency it took an incredible amount of umph to get it to roll, as in, the EV would be making you sick. But in retrospect I built it for the car and I expect it to do much better there. There is absolutely NO room gain in the studio as it is in the loft of a log home and there are also no parallel surfaces.

I'll post more about in-car results soon.

So the 10" strengths:

1. Ability to handle uber power with stride
2. Engineering in build
3. Build quality (materials and assembly)
4. Ability to operate in a small enclosure and still kick it out in a big room.

Weaknesses:

1. Bigger frame than most 10" drivers. The grille I ordered would not fit.
2. 6 mounting holes instead of 8. WTF? Tougher retrofit, again have to modify any grille kit to fit.
3. NO DOCUMENTATION, the box had a driver and packing in it, nothing for my reference later or for the "reference notebook" Never seen this before? No parameter/dimension sheet included. The cutout diameter supplied in the catalog was too big, it barely made it (see photo's coming up) it will fit in a hole about 1/4" smaller if not more. Absolutely no engineering drawings or specs. A MUST for DIY work!

Now for the one and only bloodshed. I decided to cut the remainder of the t-nuts off because (I felt) the mounting hole was too big and did not like the nuts sticking out (who likes their nuts sticking out) so I had a 3" Pneumatic cutoff wheel and was on the last one when it bucked. My finger was in the way  FYI skin does not spark like metal when it's being cut  the pics do not convey the depth of the wound well, it actually did not bleed much due to the cauterization effect of the wheel, but the missing skin swath is a pain in the ass. It still thumps a little if I use it too much 




AND while on a rant, when the -F- did T-nuts become sooo expensive? $3.59 for a 2 pack at Lowe's? Christ on a V-Rod! I'll buy elsewhere in bulk on the next project  Maybe a T-Nut group buy! Too bad I bought 8 assuming the driver had either 4 or 8 holes like every other driver out there 


Chad


----------



## kappa546

cool... but i thought the HO liked smaller boxes. thats about the size for a 10HF


----------



## chad

Yep, I can always make it smaller with wood scraps, they are a bit of a ***** to make larger  It's a test box to see how small I can go with glass. I drive an 04 Civic Si, I need hatch space, glass will be into the spare area and floor built up (with spare still in it) or if amp does not fit under seat the amp will be in a false floor and the sub in a wheel well.

Chad


----------



## chad

BTW the glue that was used is Polyester glue on the box. I WILL use it again, good sticky stuff, it expands like spray foam to seal and will stick ANYTHING, including your hands, wear gloves or wear it for 3 days! After it dries just trim off with a blade and sand. There are 3 1.5" screws per joint countersunk and bondo'ed over, (not enough clamps or work time at "Casa De Chad"

Silica sand from a pool filter/ashtray will help remove it from your hands, but it's rough stuff.

Chad


----------



## nickgonzo

nice work!


----------



## Beau

What brand/name of glue did you use?


----------



## dejo

probond?


----------



## chad

Like probond, Gorilla grip (glue?) is another name. If you live in a dry climate they recommend spraying the wood down with a sprtitz of water and quickliy wiping. The adhesive uses weater in the wood/air as the "catylist" Elmer's makes some too... dammit hold on, I'll run out and look....... 

Herre we go...

Titebond:
Polyurethane:
Liquid Glue:

4 Oz bottle was cheap and I used exactly half on that project, wasted a bunch on my hands too  Way better than the standard wood glue on the project 2 weeks before.

There ain't one ounce of caulk or silicone in that cab and after punishment again tonight (I got it to distort, different amp) the cab is happy. Listening to it now, power hungry but very smooth.

Chad


----------



## chad

Well, I have had the Dayton in tha car now for 1 week and am ready to share some opinions. First off it's not a SPL sub if you want to use a conservative amount of power. I initially was concerned with it's output but now have decided that I love it! It is running off the high power channel of a Next VRz5.500. It is a very smooth, high fidelity sub. Although it is now mated to the stock speakers it blends nicely. 

My first words to describe it is "dry" and "Effortless" It does not have that bumpy "car sub" sound. For example a kick drum has a wonderful initial attack, you can feel the batter hit the head and it GONE! Very uber cool to me! If the kick is ringy it does not over do the ring. Hip-hop is neat, if you are a musician you can damn near tell what synth or process they are using to make the drone. Lower bass guitar is clean and again effortless, the sustain in no way gets in the way of the pluck, you can hear great definition. In fact I may try the sub full range soon in the studio on an upright bass just to hear it 

Just a quick note. I'll post again when it gets mated up to some real speakers!

Chad


----------



## Finleyville

How much power is the sub seeing again?


----------



## chad

240W from the 5th Channel of a Next VRz5.500. I have not benched this amp to see if it's really doing that though. Manual says it does. BTW my pics of the inside is at the Ampguts website.

Chad


----------



## AzGrower

If someone is wanting more BOOM factor, the 12" would be a nice step up from the 10"...


----------



## AzGrower

btw...you do know that the wood you used is not mdf but pressed particle board right? Sometimes that will yield some nasty vibrations...


----------



## chad

AzGrower said:


> btw...you do know that the wood you used is not mdf but pressed particle board right? Sometimes that will yield some nasty vibrations...


Yeah, it's a temp situation, did not vibrate with 1KW of power going into it 

Sometimes my fingers race to type MDF, we should all get into the habbit of seeing PFB 

Chad


----------



## chad

AzGrower said:


> If someone is wanting more BOOM factor, the 12" would be a nice step up from the 10"...



The car is quite small, and I feel that I could not accomodate the 12" in my plans of a stealthy install. The cab would be so small I think my gains with a larger driver would be wasted in lack of Cubic feet. The 10" does fine for me, you can feel it quite well, I get boom every weekend playing Rokstar with a big PA and a DBX 120XP among other goodies  I need to retain nearly the entire hatch (for the goodies) and it's quite a squeeze! My CA18's will arrive today! Na Na NA Na  I'll let you know my impression on them and the Morel's. Got a lot of work to do! Have a great weekend AZ!


----------



## AzGrower

Hey Chad, by the way you need a router and a circle jig.


----------



## chad

YES! I have a router and plan on buying a jig from PE.. Mine is not a plunge router though, that gets a little tricky but works. I lost my home brew Jig in the divorce/move. That's what you get when non-crafty friends help you pack 

Got one for sale? I was going to go the harbor freight route, they have a couple in there for the right price for as often (not) as I use a plunge router.

Chad


----------



## AzGrower

chad said:


> Got one for sale? I was going to go the harbor freight route, they have a couple in there for the right price for as often (not) as I use a plunge router.
> 
> Chad


I like the Skil Plunge/Standard base combo...only $105 from amazon.com and the shipping is free. Its strong enough to handle anything you need it to, 2.25 HP, 11 amps. I made my own jig from plexiglass. Here is a link to the Skil router...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...4957-8887351?_encoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=228013

Or they also offer a refurbed one, with the same warranty for only $78.77 (thats the one I bought)


----------



## chad

I'm ALWAYS hip to a refurb, sometimes trust them more. Thanks for the link!!!

Got the package today. Morels are in the pods after MUCHO tweeter flange grinding. And DAMN those CA18's are deep! Getting spooked. Home with a sick kid today so it all worked out. Pulling the car in now after a break to see if I can squeeze them in 

I made my circle jug out of old metal parts and some metal dowel. Not graduated but infinitely variable 

Chad


----------



## honfatboy

chad said:


> I made my circle jug out of old metal parts and some metal dowel. Not graduated but infinitely variable
> 
> Chad


Can you post a pic of that jig?


----------



## zfactor

i would use baltic birch or apple ply for the box personally super solid and almost no added colorations or as little as possible in my experiences...


----------



## AzGrower

honfatboy said:


> Can you post a pic of that jig?


Here is my first version, doing some test cuts on some scrap PFB.









Here is what my second one looks like, although mine is in plexiglass

















Although I have to say I just found a guy on Amazon re-selling the Jasper Jig 400 and 200 in a combo pack for $28 shipped! The model 400 was new in plastic and the 200 was only used twice. So I had to order it just for that simple fact...


----------



## chad

honfatboy said:


> Can you post a pic of that jig?


Read #17 

Chad


----------



## chad

zfactor said:


> i would use baltic birch or apple ply for the box personally super solid and almost no added colorations or as little as possible in my experiences...


It's going to burn come April when the driver gets galssed in...... It' a test box  The Baltic is for the big boys in the big truck outsise 

Chad


----------



## Pb2theMax

Thanks for the good review. Sounds like this sub will work nicely in a .55 cu ft truck box.

Got any new updates to your opinion on the sub?


----------



## skydeaner

yeah, updates please! You said you aren't a boom boom guy, but how is the low bass extension?


----------



## chad

Off to do a show now... Will try to post tomorrow! Extension is L-O-W


----------



## chad

Back amongst the normal folk again 

The opinions of the driver in the car are based on a very small car. You will not have the same results with this system in your Yukon/Escalade/Hummer 

I worked and still do at times as a live sound engineer. I am noted for my tastes in low end within my industry. My tech rider even states this of sorts. My belief is that a sub is adequate if it will keep my pant legs in motion and/or disrupt my breathing at the mix position, whether it's 300' away from a stage or across a living room. That being said, the Dayton lives up to these expectations in this car 100%.

You will probably want to throw more power at it than I am. As for low end extension it's amazing. There are times I still go "Oooh" when it digs down there, it kinda catches me by surprise. It's a very "musical" sub for what that means, it never really catches a resonant node. Fretless bass sounds very natural when it's utilized in a slide down. I have it crossed at 63Hz and it allowed to play to 20. It will nail 20 cycles quite hard as discovered with some test tones. Again, no problem altering my breathing.

If you have a small interior you should be happy with one as long as you are not trying to knock small aircraft out of the air. You can always add another. They go in an insanely small box and deliver the goods regardless of it's very affordable price!

Chad


----------



## Pb2theMax

Thanks for the info. Sounds like it would be a great sub for a truck. Small interior and small box volume. How does it do with a higher X-over? Like 80 or 100 hz? How steep do you have it?


----------



## Pb2theMax

I just noticed that the 12" Dayton HO only has a 5-3/8" mounting depth.  

I wonder how it would do in a .55 cu ft box?


----------



## chad

Pb2theMax said:


> Thanks for the info. Sounds like it would be a great sub for a truck. Small interior and small box volume. How does it do with a higher X-over? Like 80 or 100 hz? How steep do you have it?



The thing about a sub in my truck is tha it is inches from my kidneys, The feeling is more viceral  But I threw the Dayton on the passenger floor and was amazed, yes it um, works very well in a truck.

Chad


----------



## chad

Pb2theMax said:


> Thanks for the info. Sounds like it would be a great sub for a truck. Small interior and small box volume. How does it do with a higher X-over? Like 80 or 100 hz? How steep do you have it?


It's a 4th order crossover now, I would be more than happy to bump it up say, tonight/tomorrow and listen to it for a couple days if you'd like. JKeeping it low gives me a nice "bass up front" sound. But I'll try it higher for giggles, I'm game for anything!

Chad


----------



## Pb2theMax

chad said:


> The thing about a sub in my truck is tha it is inches from my kidneys, The feeling is more viceral  But I threw the Dayton on the passenger floor and was amazed, yes it um, works very well in a truck.
> 
> Chad


My sub will be going in the back of my Double Cab, so it won't be pounding me in the back, but I know what you're talking about. My very first vehicle was a regular cab 85 GMC. I had every different subwoofer configuration possible over the course of the 7 years that I owned it. IMO, my three JL 8W6's was probably my favorite setup in that regular cab.

In my 05 Tacoma Double cab I think a single 10" or 12" in the back of the cab will be sweet.


----------



## Pb2theMax

chad said:


> It's a 4th order crossover now, I would be more than happy to bump it up say, tonight/tomorrow and listen to it for a couple days if you'd like. JKeeping it low gives me a nice "bass up front" sound. But I'll try it higher for giggles, I'm game for anything!
> 
> Chad


Yeah, if you would, give it a try and see if it starts to get muddy at higher frequencies. I rhink I'd like to set my RS180s at 80 or 100hz HP, if I could.


----------



## grindkt88

Hey just wanted to ring in to let you guys know that I built a .45 truck box with the Dayton 10 HO. IT Flat out rocks!!! I was brousing the DIY projects on 
parts-express.com and saw that Darren Kuzma wrote in his Colossus project that optimum air space was .45 ... I had to get a pair for my crew cab chevy short bed. I'm running one right now with no crossover yet and only 200 watts. Its supper clean gets down to the 20 HZ range no problem . very smooth My doughter plays her pink CD and it rings like it was recorded for the taste of rollers that only want to move air and shake windows. then you put my CD's S.R.V. chili peppers ,pantera the bass is tight .it seems to carry both low and mid bass very accurate at the same time. Dayton really knows how to build a speaker. this speaker has me wandering why I have an 18inch in my car.


----------



## chad

grindkt88 said:


> this speaker has me wandering why I have an 18inch in my car.



Because it's flipping cool! Which 18 are you running?

Chad


----------



## chad

BTW does KT88 in your name refer to the Gold Lion? 

Chad


----------



## grindkt88

Its a pile, that I had from 16 years ago That was sitting in a box untill about 3 years. when I purchased it I got a lot of flack from friends,because I could have gotten an Orion or Rockford for $10 more through a whole seller friend. But I made my choice because back then pile had the best true sound reproduction In my opinion. I'm not A db kind of guy I'm more of an Imaging kinda guy.
The kt88 refers to a big bottle audio transister tube. My favorite Guitar amp that I own has them in the power amp section. Love that big bottle tone.


----------



## chad

It simply called a power tube. Gold Lions are the "sought after" KT88 design. Many will pay hundreds of dollars for a worn-out set! 

Which amp do you have? Old Marshall, Ampeg? 4 power tubes or 2? The 6550 is a drop in replacement, the KT88 is the mil-spec version but some of the newer Svetlana 6550's are pretty sweet and robust. I've built a few designs with KT90's but tolerances are slipping on them and it's tough to find a set that will work a long time. In their day a KT90 was a MONSTER tube! As of my current designs use KT88's or 6550's Every now and then I'll do an EL34 design but not often. My next bastid kid is going to be a 7591 amp like the really old 50's ampeg's used. It should be an interesting project. 

Chad


----------



## grindkt88

The amp with KT88's is a Laney Supper Pro Lead modified by Splawn. The case is a Laney but the guts is all Splawn. My friend from www.rollsguitar.com traded one of his guitars with splawn, then I talked him into selling it to me. Its the 100w version butt I wish I had the 50w version. The thing is so freaking loud. With the pre at 3 and the post above 4 it makes anything not bolted down fall of shelves. thats with a clean lead sound.
I also have a Dean Markly Signature Series 60 with two 6L6's, Carvin Quad-X preamp pushing an ADA TS100S with 4 EL34's and also a little vintage Univox.
So the amps you built did you design them you're self? I've built a few
Preamps from hobby kits.

.....The just called a tube thing, I know I didn't Know you did .A lot of peaple don't know what I'm talking about when I just call it a tube.


----------



## Diru

Blast the glass!!!

Cool to see glass is alive and well here.

I miss my old H.H. Scott LK-150, but you best be sure I'm dead if you try for my Rocktron velocity valve.

Feeling sick? >> 12BH7 << drive it hard.


----------



## Mike Hall

I have been planning on using some Oz audio 250L's behind the rear seat of my crew cab F250 but I cant fit but one being these subs like airspace. I can come up with an easy 1.5 cu ft so two of these subs should be easy to make work. I wonder how these subs would compare to the 250L as far as output and sound quality.

Mike


----------



## Mike Hall

I just did some figuring and I could get 3 of these behind the rear seat of my crew cab F250. I could run them with my Xtant 1001d which i was worred about putting on a 250L. LOL How do you think 3 of these would work behind the rear seat in a crew cab? 

Mike


----------



## luvdeftonz

In a cabin as small as that of a F250, output shouldn't be a problem at all. Honestly, a single 10" HO would give plenty of output for music...a trio would be a ton of output for those days you just want to bumpety-bump. With the already low distortion of a single driver, a trio would (for music) be free of any (audible) distortion...provided you set your levels correctly.

I've got to get the 15" HF ready to go for the home...


----------



## Mike Hall

You would be surprised and how big the cab of my truck is. It would be larger than most any 4 door car for sure. Im not to worried about output as much as great sound. I over the boom stuff I think. LOL I may just get two so I can make a cool box with some fiberglass work.

Mike


----------



## luvdeftonz

Well, the actual airspace in the cabin isn't as large as one would think (I'm a ex-Ford truck owner...before gas was $3.25/gallon  ). With that said, though, a good enclosure and proper level setting is what will make it sound good. Dayton already did their part in designing the speaker to sound good...the rest is on you and the install.


----------



## THASQGOTME

I seriously want to give 2 10" Dayton HO's a try. I have a 2006 Ford F-150 Supercab. Does anybody here have any dimensions for an enclosure (0.75" MDF) that would fit under the seat? If not, where might I come across these?

I don't want to spend a lot of money on a good custom enclosure, or a little money on a piece of crap out of China. I would love to build my own, and know it's done right.


----------



## Mike Hall

I have 3 of these subs on the way along with a dayton 3 way front stage. I may only go with two subs so I will have a backup.

Mike


----------



## chad

You are going to love them! Of the casual listeners I have that know their stuff, all of them have loved the low end, clean, effortless, and low. Don't know about SPL but it's a damn good sub for SQ, I own ONE, multiples should do VERY well, watch your depth.

Cahd


----------



## Mike Hall

The sub does have a 5" mounting depth like it said on PE right? By the way what size should the cut out be? I have a boxed designed up which will fit all 3 subs. Each in a .45 cu ft which includes the sub and enternal bracing. Should I have a chamber for each sub or can i let them share airspace? 

Mike


----------



## Mike Hall

Here is a drawing with dimensions of this sub. I draw up all my subs to make sure they fit in my cad drawn enclosures. This drawing was made from measurements I took off the sub so there dead on.


Mike


----------



## Diru

Mike Hall said:


> The sub does have a 5" mounting depth like it said on PE right? By the way what size should the cut out be? I have a boxed designed up which will fit all 3 subs. Each in a .45 cu ft which includes the sub and enternal bracing. Should I have a chamber for each sub or can i let them share airspace?
> 
> Mike


If you can make it seperate chambers this will help in the long run including the all important flex free cabinet.


----------



## chad

Mike Hall said:


> Here is a drawing with dimensions of this sub. I draw up all my subs to make sure they fit in my cad drawn enclosures. This drawing was made from measurements I took off the sub so there dead on.
> 
> 
> Mike


Thank YOU SIR!~!!!!

You da man!

Chad


----------



## ArcL100

Mike Hall said:


> Here is a drawing with dimensions of this sub. I draw up all my subs to make sure they fit in my cad drawn enclosures. This drawing was made from measurements I took off the sub so there dead on.
> 
> 
> Mike


Lol, nice. Is that A-Cad?

-aaron


----------



## Mike Hall

Yeah its autocad. I did this for my diamond audio 12s. LOL

mike


----------



## BigBassBrent

I'm curious if these has been any progress on the F250? I have a pair of 10" Dayton HO waiting to go in my F250 crew cab and I have been beating my head on box design. I really want to get them down firing under the back seat because I think it sounds better and I want to use the back wall for my amps. And thanks for measurement drawing Mike.

-Brent


----------



## mikemareen

are you guys sure ? 0.45 sealed for a 10" sub and it sounds good ?


----------



## chad

.45 is really going to limit that driver, I tried that, it needs more room.


----------



## BigBassBrent

chad said:


> .45 is really going to limit that driver, I tried that, it needs more room.


Really? When I do the numbers I get .334 ft^3 for a Qtc of .707

How doe the sub act in the smaller vs the larger enclosure?

-Brent


----------



## chad

Smaller..poor low end, poor efficiency

larger.....more low end (lower cutoff) if it's bumpy then EQ, you will need the efficiency.

Mine's in the larger AND vented. It rocks, I had to do a couple cuts to keep it from getting flabby.

Regardless of driver .334 FT^3 is a TINY box for low end duty. We are building a subwoofer here 

I'll bet you that you will be unhappy with anything smaller than 2/3CuFt unless you are using an assload of them in a small car and have a BUNCH of power.

Chad


----------



## 89grand

I'm having a hard time understanding how the size of the enclosure, regardless of how small it is, is an issue if the sub in question is designed for that size enclosure. If a Dayton has a QTC of .707 in .334 ft3 shouldn't that be pretty much ideal?

For instance, I just purchased a Diyma 12 and planned on using the recommended .5 ft3 enclosure which also yields a QTC of .707.

Are you saying this just in regards to just the Daytons performance or is your feeling across the board that all sub drivers should be in larger than enclosures that provide a .707 QTC?

I mean .334 ft3 is tiny for a 10", but I thought one of it's selling points was that fact, much like it is with the Diyma as .5 ft3 is very small too for a 12".

I'm confused be this, as npdang seems to feel enclosure size is not all that important. These two schools of thought seem to be at odds with each other.


----------



## BigBassBrent

chad said:


> Smaller..poor low end, poor efficiency
> 
> Regardless of driver .334 FT^3 is a TINY box for low end duty. We are building a subwoofer here
> 
> I'll bet you that you will be unhappy with anything smaller than 2/3CuFt unless you are using an assload of them in a small car and have a BUNCH of power.
> 
> Chad


I'm in the same boat as 89Grand, I just don't understand why a smaller box is bad if that is what the driver was designed for. 

I will be pushing two of them, and giving each 500 W RMS, which IMO is a bunch of power. I came up with my box size and power from reading the dayton spec sheet, is this the wrong way to go at it?

-Brent


----------



## chad

Hey knock yourselves out. I put mine in a .75 CuFt enclosure and started adding wood a little bit at a time to see how small I could go. In a smaller enclosure I was just not digging it. Eventually I ended up venting it because I was getting the feelings of lack of output like many others have. Problem solved, now it flat out gets at it! Granted, I will admit, the graphs don't look much different from .66 to .334 but for some reason I was hearing a big difference in enclosure sizes. 

After using it in a vented enclosure I will not go back. Maybe it has something to do with the 5dB of gain at 40 cycles and 4.5dB of gain at 30 cycles. Folks, 5dB is almost the equavalent of QUADRUPLING your power at that frequency. At 22 cycles the boxes have equavalent gain and the vented falls off fromt here, but i don't care about much of anything below 22. cycles anyway. 

Before venting the amp ran hot as hell and even the dust dome for the driver was getting rather warm, excursion was HUGE. Now the excursion is MUCH less, the amp runs cooler and the driver does not get warm. Methinks that although most SQ guys cannot swallow the "vented box pill" that it's the only way to go with this driver and it sounds GREAT!

The graph that has been posted a zillion times... Guess which one is vented?










Chad


----------



## MiniVanMan

Like so many other things, the idea that ported is for boom, and sealed is for SQ is a misnomer. A properly built vented enclosure can sound very, very good. I use the Dayton HO 12's, in a vented enclosure, and I've heard many a sealed box with much more expensive drivers not sound near as good as these. The HO drivers are indeed designed for a vented enclosure.

Unfortunately, one of my 12's has become a casualty of the cold weather. I've been debating on trying a different set of drivers, but in the end, I have to say that I'm extremely happy with HO 12, and will end up just replacing the one I lost.


----------



## chad

What happened to the driver in the cold weather, it's nasty eh? Are you ready for tonight, let it snow! i notice that mine is very much affected by temp below say 20 degrees (for those not in the know, it's been single digits and below for some time here in the big IL)


----------



## MiniVanMan

Driver still works, but with a lot of mechanical rattling. Gonna let it warm up and see if I can mess with it, or if it fixes itself. Getting a new vehicle tomorrow, so everything is stripped from my current one. So, I've got quite a bit to spend money on without having to replace current equipment. 

Not happy about the snow tonight. I've got a long drive to Kankakee and back tonight.


----------



## chad

I have notice decreased output in the uber cold but it's fine after the car warms a bit (like above freezing)

Have a safe trip, congrats on the new whip!


----------



## kappa546

MiniVanMan said:


> Like so many other things, the idea that ported is for boom, and sealed is for SQ is a misnomer. A properly built vented enclosure can sound very, very good. I use the Dayton HO 12's, in a vented enclosure, and I've heard many a sealed box with much more expensive drivers not sound near as good as these. The HO drivers are indeed designed for a vented enclosure.
> 
> Unfortunately, one of my 12's has become a casualty of the cold weather. I've been debating on trying a different set of drivers, but in the end, I have to say that I'm extremely happy with HO 12, and will end up just replacing the one I lost.


what size/tuning ported enclosure is recommended for the 12 in a car?


----------



## mikemareen

how come nobody has come direct and answered this simple question ?

the sub specs equate to 0.707 in a sealed 0.33 cu ft box, according to the .707 balance of low end and upper bass, it should sound similar to any other 10" that equates to 0.707 balance whether it be in 0.33 or 1.0 cu ft sealed.

I'll tell you why.....the specs given for just about any subwoofer are all MADE UP. The specs are worth just as much as phony monopoly money.






89grand said:


> I'm having a hard time understanding how the size of the enclosure, regardless of how small it is, is an issue if the sub in question is designed for that size enclosure. If a Dayton has a QTC of .707 in .334 ft3 shouldn't that be pretty much ideal?
> 
> For instance, I just purchased a Diyma 12 and planned on using the recommended .5 ft3 enclosure which also yields a QTC of .707.
> 
> Are you saying this just in regards to just the Daytons performance or is your feeling across the board that all sub drivers should be in larger than enclosures that provide a .707 QTC?
> 
> I mean .334 ft3 is tiny for a 10", but I thought one of it's selling points was that fact, much like it is with the Diyma as .5 ft3 is very small too for a 12".
> 
> I'm confused be this, as npdang seems to feel enclosure size is not all that important. These two schools of thought seem to be at odds with each other.


----------



## chad

It does not recommend that box in the manual, it has no recommendations. Maybe it sounds not so great because the motor is not strong enough to deal with that small of a box. maybe I'm grabbing at straws. Tell me why the plots look ssooooooooo similar in a .67 CuFt box? then tell me why it sounds Soooo much different in those two boxes. I'm saying I HAVE choked it back to see what it would do, the audible results were stunningly different then what modeling software suggests.

Cars are spec'd with a 0-60 time, but not with a head-wind. 

Modeling software does not look at motor strength well enough IMHO. The Vas, Qts, and Fs have nothing to do with motor Umph, the box will have the same response with you tapping on the cone with your finger. Unfortunately we are building a subwoofer enclosure not a conga.

now riddle me this...... What's with the .707 golden number we all obsess about? Make it go as flat as low and loud as possible with an acceptable F3 or even usable frequency response. There's no reason to stress the motor of a driver or an amplifier to meet a magic number. Get it loud and apply cut-only EQ. When I design a subwoofer system, please note I said SUBWOOFER. I look at the last part of the curve and see how loud it plays low. Note the posted graph, I'd much rather see the one flatter and lower than looking for a Q of .707. There's no sense in limiting usable low frequency extension and efficinecy in a subwoofer system to meet a magic number. Many may disagree, but playing by my personal set of rules I have made plenty of very sucessful subwoofer designs and so have other designers adhering to these ideas.

I had no idea what the driver would do when I bought it. This is why I made an ugly-ol test enclosure to play with before I glassed it in. When mine gets glassed in it's (the box) up for grabs N/C, you pay shipping, but it's heavy. But I can tell you one thing. When I looked at .334 CuFt and the plot for .667 i said Naaawww Way to the .334, it's a hunch from expierience, the hunch was right. Too little airspace, and not enough motor/amplifier, at least im my apps. But even with 1KWRMS (real power, pro amp, plenty of juice from the wall) going to it the lower volumes of airspace choked it, then I deduced... not enough motor. It's a great driver, but it's not the second son of christ.

Chad


----------



## 89grand

Well like in the case with the Diyma 12 I just bought, I have no way to measure the subs performance, and I don't have the wood working tools to contruct numerous enclosures to test it in, so I have no really choice but to take dpdangs word on the enclosure size. I mainly bought it because of it's claimed small enclosure requirements.

Hopefully it performs as I'm hoping it does in small sealed enclosure. Considering that I'm only going to be running 5.25's and I don't listen to music with 20hz tones, increased low bass extension at the cost of upper bass performance is not really what I want. I have a P880PRS so I do have some eq at my disposal if needed.


----------



## kappa546

well being a tc built sub, the diyma is done right imo for small box ie: high BL (just like tC claims for their house subs). As a matter of fact i beleive its equally important for quite the opposite application, IB. if i remember correctly my old SI Magnum D2 15 (original version) had a relatively low Qts at .3 and smallish Vas for a 15" at 140L but high BL and it was a beast IB. some argue that the BL value itself isnt important as long as it's flat and symmetrical tho


----------



## chad

89grand said:


> Well like in the case with the Diyma 12 I just bought, I have no way to measure the subs performance, and I don't have the wood working tools to contruct numerous enclosures to test it in,.



I'm in the same boat, I just don't have the time, I have plenty of tools. I built a box that was 1CuFt and started adding stuff internally to shave the size down... like scrap wood. This allowed me to see what it would do before wasting my time on fiberglass for something I did not want.




89grand said:


> Hopefully it performs as I'm hoping it does in small sealed enclosure. Considering that I'm only going to be running 5.25's and I don't listen to music with 20hz tones, increased low bass extension at the cost of upper bass performance is not really what I want. I have a P880PRS so I do have some eq at my disposal if needed.


Me too, this is why I made my last post. Note that the sealed does better than the ported below 22 cycles, and I said i could care less below 22 cycles  Get me down to 30 cycles flatish and loud and I'm pretty much a happy camper! I'll slice and dice EQ from there and further reduce the workload of the amp.


Chad


----------



## Mike Hall

What are the specs on the ported enclosure you ended up with? I guess I might just use two of the three subs I bought in a ported enclosure behind the rear seat of my F250. 

Thanks
Mike


----------



## chad

It ended up being between .667 and .7 CuFt and tuned to around 30 cycles. Could be 29, could be 31, but I do believe it's 30 cycles.

Chad


----------



## Raptor

I wrote a question in the general forums but you have been dealing with 10" dayons so I thought id post here.

I have floor stands with a 10" enclosure on each, each has 1.3-1.5 square feet I think the HO would work with that size, but do you think I could get away with the HF's? I would like to get subs reaching down to 25hz at least. I have no need for midbass.

Also, how big of a quality hit would I take from going down to a Quatro or even DVC?

Currently I have two JBL "loud&clear's". And I am hoping to get an upgrade that had marked improvement


----------



## kornsined

Hey Chad I was wondering what length and diameter are your ports?


----------



## chad

kornsined said:


> Hey Chad I was wondering what length and diameter are your ports?


ooh, I can't remember. Right now it's 28" at 6.5 sq inches, but that probably does not help much does it? There are 2 3" ports in the other box but I can't remember the length after the elbows :blush: and I don't have modeling software on this computer..... can you hang till tomorrow?

Chad


----------



## mitchyz250f

Chad, sorry if I missed this (long post) but did you ever try the sub crossed at higher frequencies like 80 or 100hz?


----------



## tcguy85

mitchyz250f said:


> Chad, sorry if I missed this (long post) but did you ever try the sub crossed at higher frequencies like 80 or 100hz?


i have the same sub as chad in the same size box with the same tuning and same port area. so exactly the same thing. it does very well up top. i have it at 63hz/12db currently though. blends very well.


----------



## tcguy85

chad said:


> ooh, I can't remember. Right now it's 28" at 6.5 sq inches, but that probably does not help much does it? There are 2 3" ports in the other box but I can't remember the length after the elbows :blush: and I don't have modeling software on this computer..... can you hang till tomorrow?
> 
> Chad


i thought you were running 2 2" ports or 2.5" ports? 

i'm running a single 3" port. around 24-25" long. 30hz.


----------



## kornsined

chad said:


> ooh, I can't remember. Right now it's 28" at 6.5 sq inches, but that probably does not help much does it? There are 2 3" ports in the other box but I can't remember the length after the elbows :blush: and I don't have modeling software on this computer..... can you hang till tomorrow?
> 
> Chad


No rush. I haven't even bought the subs yet. I just wanted to compare your ports to TCguy85's setup.

BTW TCguy, where did you get your ports? Partsexpress didn't really have much in 3".


----------



## chad

tcguy85 said:


> i thought you were running 2 2" ports or 2.5" ports?
> 
> i'm running a single 3" port. around 24-25" long. 30hz.


Doh, you are right 2 2" ports, I remember now that the 3" PVC elbows had too big of a bend radius and would have made the box HUGE.

The length of each tube (linear) is 25.84 inches. I guestamated the length by measuring across the elbow at 45 degrees and made it just a smidge too long, then I capped and filled a 25.84" peice of 2" and poured it into the bent tube I capped. Marked a line at the water line and had the right length.

Honestly I would do a slot, round ports take up too much room and are not an effective use of space, you can wrap the slot around the enclosure and take up WAY less space than I did..... you will need around 6.5SqIn of vent area for full bore operation.

Have you seen the most recent enclosure? The old one is in the shed.... there is an owl living in it now  

Chad


----------



## kornsined

Do you mean your stealth box? I don't think I've seen it.

That's hilarious about the owl though.


----------



## chad

kornsined said:


> Do you mean your stealth box? I don't think I've seen it.
> 
> That's hilarious about the owl though.


It's a crazy long thread but it has build pics and history.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23845

Yeah, the owl, I think they are sooo cool so I'm intrigued. 

I was less than intrigued when I went out to get it and as soon as I had my mitts on it an angry owl flew out. Lost some dignity there! It's a really rough box and it served it's purpose so I have no problem donating it to nature


----------



## el_chupo_

you ever tried it with more port area? Any noticable noise or chuffing?

Thanks


----------



## chad

el_chupo_ said:


> you ever tried it with more port area? Any noticable noise or chuffing?
> 
> Thanks


There would not be any more chuffing, an increase in vent area reduces chuffing.


----------



## el_chupo_

chad said:


> There would not be any more chuffing, an increase in vent area reduces chuffing.


Yes, I meant in your enclosure. Your first one was ~6.25" of port area, and your current I think is about 10" via your build log. Any chuffing there? If there isnt, thats great, I just assumed that a smaller port like the 2" pipes would create noise.


----------



## chad

I went from 6.28 Sq in to 6.5 sq in and even in the small one there was no noise, Pay attention to your vent mach in Win ISD, that will let you know if it will be noisy for the most part. Wildly enough the lowe you tune the more you can get away with smaller vents for some reaon, I have yet to examine as to why.


----------



## Oliver

A higher tuning is for SPL [ 40-45 hz ], you get louder the higher it is tuned.


----------



## chad

40 in a ,7 box leaves you with a wicked bump centered at 48 cycles and up 3.48dB and a -3 at 35

45 in a .7 box gives you a bump at 52 cycles up 5dB and a -3 at 38 cycles and a very steep cutoff after that

The way I do it yeilds a flat response out to the -3 point of 30.25 cycles.

higher tuning louder? Yes, but also probably not the best in terms of extension and workability.


----------



## tcguy85

i have no port noise with my 3" flared port unless i play stuff right at or below tuning with a good deal of power to the sub. i listen to mainly rock/metal. not a lot that's real strong down to 30hz or below so it's all good for me.

oh and i remember seeing a post asking where i got my port tubing. i did get it from parts express. bought 2 pieces of straight pipe, 2 elbows, 2 flared ends and 2 connectors. only used 1 straight pipe, the 2 elbows, the 2 flares and one of the connectors. i bought extra just in case i needed it.

this sub in the enclosure i have it in, suits my needs perfectly!


----------



## chad

tcguy85 said:


> i have no port noise with my 3" flared port unless i play stuff right at or below tuning with a good deal of power to the sub. i listen to mainly rock/metal. not a lot that's real strong down to 30hz or below so it's all good for me.


Rock/metal does not have much information in the 30 cycle reigion, I mix metal, and trust me, you can totaly convey the feel of everything with a HPF set at 40 cycles. Although I don't PREFER to do it that way but it works.

Chad


----------



## tcguy85

chad said:


> Rock/metal does not have much information in the 30 cycle reigion, I mix metal, and trust me, you can totaly convey the feel of everything with a HPF set at 40 cycles. Although I don't PREFER to do it that way but it works.
> 
> Chad


yup, unless your playing linkin park or something similar with some synthesized bass added in. or maybe that song comfortable liar by chevelle, that song has some lower notes in it. there are always exceptions but most metal doesn't have a lot of real low end.


----------



## chad

tcguy85 said:


> yup, unless your playing linkin park or something similar with some synthesized bass added in. or maybe that song comfortable liar by chevelle, that song has some lower notes in it. there are always exceptions but most metal doesn't have a lot of real low end.


Yeah Korn gets down there too as does a bunch of Manson stuff. I use a DBX120XP on a send/return for that growl live, but, if you don't have proper HPF's set those devices are great at turning 18's into screw holders, and sometimes not even good screw holders 

Chad


----------



## tcguy85

chad said:


> Yeah Korn gets down there too as does a bunch of Manson stuff. I use a DBX120XP on a send/return for that growl live, but, if you don't have proper HPF's set those devices are great at turning 18's into screw holders, and sometimes not even good screw holders
> 
> Chad


yes Korn of course does too. what metal groups have you mixed for? just curious? sounds like a lot of fun.


----------



## kornsined

I guess it's pretty obvious but I love Korn.


----------



## chad

tcguy85 said:


> yes Korn of course does too. what metal groups have you mixed for? just curious? sounds like a lot of fun.


Oh, a few. Personal rule that I don't post client lists on the intrawebz.


----------



## tcguy85

chad said:


> Oh, a few. Personal rule that I don't post client lists on the intrawebz.


ah ok.


----------



## chad

tcguy85 said:


> ah ok.


Nothing against you or the forum, It was a way for me to turn over a new leaf and it also helps avoid the riff-raff of people PMing me and e-mailing me for bootlegs and stuff like that which I WON'T give out because those are MY memories. There are enough hints around


----------



## chozar

I can't seem to find the displacement of the 10" Dayton RS HO.

I just bought one, and calculate that a .33 cu ft box is decent, but I need to find the displacement before I make the box. Its arriving tomorrow.


----------



## tcguy85

chozar said:


> I can't seem to find the displacement of the 10" Dayton RS HO.
> 
> I just bought one, and calculate that a .33 cu ft box is decent, but I need to find the displacement before I make the box. Its arriving tomorrow.


i think somebody the other day was saying .08. i think it's more like .06 or so though. the last ten inch sub i had had the same basket but a much larger motor structure and they claimed the displacement was .075. so unless THEY were wrong then i would have ot say the HO is about .06.


----------



## CGG318

*Email from PE:*



> Hi Chris,
> 
> *The total volume displaced by the driver is .08 ft³.*
> 
> Thanks for asking,
> 
> Brian Myers
> Product Manager
> Parts Express Int'l
> Dayton® Loudspeaker Division


----------



## tcguy85

CGG318 said:


> *Email from PE:*


then i guess Treo must be wrong on the spec for my last sub, the SSi ten. it has a much bigger motor and is claimed to only displace .075.


----------



## chad

tcguy85 said:


> then i guess Treo must be wrong on the spec for my last sub, the SSi ten. it has a much bigger motor and is claimed to only displace .075.


It's not just the motor but how much the cone is inset into the cab also.


----------



## tcguy85

chad said:


> It's not just the motor but how much the cone is inset into the cab also.


what do you mean? the other sub i am talkin about uses the same basket, bigger motor. what do you mean about "inset into the cab"?

anyhow.... if Dayton says that is the displacement, then i am sure it's correct.


----------



## Oliver

tcguy85 said:


> what do you mean? the other sub i am talkin about uses the same basket, bigger motor. what do you mean about "inset into the cab"?
> 
> anyhow.... if Dayton says that is the displacement, then i am sure it's correct.


Literally = how much of the speaker is in the box [ cab ][enclosure]


----------



## danssoslow

tcguy85 said:


> what do you mean? the other sub i am talkin about uses the same basket, bigger motor. what do you mean about "inset into the cab"?
> 
> anyhow.... if Dayton says that is the displacement, then i am sure it's correct.


I assume he's saying that the shape and size of the cone will effect displacement inside of the cabinet. A cone with a more curvilinear shape would take up less space than a more conical shape would. A smaller surround would make for a larger cone. A larger voice coil would create more displacement than a smaller coil would. Etc...


----------



## chad

danssoslow said:


> I assume he's saying that the shape and size of the cone will effect displacement inside of the cabinet. A cone with a more curvilinear shape would take up less space than a more conical shape would. A smaller surround would make for a larger cone. A larger voice coil would create more displacement than a smaller coil would. Etc...


yessir!


----------



## tcguy85

ok. good enough.


----------



## kornsined

Damn it! I don't know if I want to go with one of these in a ported box or a DIYMA 12" in a 1^ft3 sealed box. I hear good things from both.


----------



## mitchyz250f

Chad wrote;

"Rock/metal does not have much information in the 30 cycle reigion, I mix metal, and trust me, you can totaly convey the feel of everything with a HPF set at 40 cycles. Although I don't PREFER to do it that way but it works."

Does that mean that a sub-sonic filter doesn't do anything (read much) if you mostly listen to rock?


----------



## tcguy85

Dayton HO > DIYMA 12

honestly i have never heard the diyma 12. i hear it's good though. but i have a feeling i'd like my HO more.


----------



## tcguy85

mitchyz250f said:


> Chad wrote;
> 
> "Rock/metal does not have much information in the 30 cycle reigion, I mix metal, and trust me, you can totaly convey the feel of everything with a HPF set at 40 cycles. Although I don't PREFER to do it that way but it works."
> 
> Does that mean that a sub-sonic filter doesn't do anything (read much) if you mostly listen to rock?


i do not, and will not use a subsonic filter. i don't think they are needed. if you listen to rock or metal i think you'll have a hard time bottoming out a sub if you're listening at normal levels. even on rap i still won't use one.


----------



## chad

tcguy85 said:


> i do not, and will not use a subsonic filter. i don't think they are needed. if you listen to rock or metal i think you'll have a hard time bottoming out a sub if you're listening at normal levels. even on rap i still won't use one.


I use a subsonic... then there's this trick you can do with the EQ, and it will feel like a 2X4 hitting you in the chest with well recorded metal/rock. Ain't nutin you can do for some of it (metal) for low end though.


----------



## phatredpt

chad said:


> I use a subsonic... then there's this trick you can do with the EQ, and it will feel like a 2X4 hitting you in the chest with well recorded metal/rock. Ain't nutin you can do for some of it (metal) for low end though.


And what would it take to get you to share that "trick" chad?


----------



## chad

phatredpt said:


> And what would it take to get you to share that "trick" chad?


Hell no 
































































It depends on the size of your car and sheer witchcraft......

If it don't work off the bat, don't shoot me, You gotta play with it and use the car.


























With that you could conclude, do a subsonic a bit below tuning, mine's at 28Hz and make sure it's sharp. THEN bring the sub up to your normal "get at it" level nice and solid on the volume, not hammering, just good and solid. Now, make a really steep Q Parametric set it all the way down in freq, and dump it.

Now bring the freq of that filter up till you just notice it, then a bit more.

Widen the slope

Bring the sub gain up.

throw down....

What do you get?

Play with slope, and gain till it hits you.

Go for a drive, you may want to bring the slope out a bit or the freq down, but not much!


----------



## mvw2

tcguy85 said:


> Dayton HO > DIYMA 12
> 
> honestly i have never heard the diyma 12. i hear it's good though. but i have a feeling i'd like my HO more.


Haha, bold statement for someone who hasn't heard what he's comparing. 

I've listened to the DIYMA (own) and the Dayton Reference 12" HF (borrowed from brother for a while) I can't comment on the HO version though, but I'll say the HO is a better comparison given the sort of box setup between both.

The Dayton is a very light, crisp, and airy subwoofer. I like to call it squeaky clean, because frankly it sounds squeaky clean like you could rub your finger across the notes and it would audibly squeak. The sub is fun to listen to at higher frequencies. The enjoyment is enough so that I really would love to build some floor standing speakers with them. 

In terms of musical reproduction, it is somewhat unnatural. The squeaky clean sound, although nice to listen to, isn't quite realistic. It's very good, but not perfect. The light and crisp notes are also, well, light and crisp, too much so. The sub lacks a little bit of heft and presence. There's the initial attack and then little else. It makes the sub feel weak. 

I had an oddity running the HF 12" sealed (1.5 cu.ft.). For some reason the low frequency output sounded a little muddy and disconnected. I'm not sure why. It seemed uncontrolled in some way, but I'm not sure why. At the same time, the sub really never lost control. If you cranked it up, the sub would play pretty happily even blaring along, clean and crisp. The lower notes were just weird. I would like to give it a listen in a ported box sometime (whenever my brother gets around to building his home theater). It may solve the issue.

The DIYMA is a very different sub. It is, for lack of a better word, perfect. Ok, it's not perfect, but it's very, very close in most ways. The sub does nothing that makes it stand out or otherwise make it sound incorrect. There is no coloration. The sound from the sub is completely transparent. I explain this by the fact that you can have the sub sitting in front of you playing everything from 0-200Hz, and you can't locate the sound with it sitting right in front of you. This is a very, very tough thing to do. Basically it doesn't do anything wrong. This means absolutely nothing it does actually grabs your attention and localizes you to it. Sound is clean, open, natural. The low end response is robust and full-bodied, if you've got the wattage and sensitivity(ported), meaning it's not compressed or constrained. Sensitivity is middle of the road, but around 500w will take you a long ways. My ears haven't listened to a more accurate sub.

But would I chose the Dayton or another sub? Sure, if it suited my goals and tastes. It all depends on what kind of sound you're shooting for. That's sort of why there's a thousand choices to chose from, to fit particular applications and taste.


----------



## chad

I need to try out a DIYMA, that's all there is to it.


----------



## mitchyz250f

I should get bonus points for getting Chad to share his secret.


----------



## mitchyz250f

Can you buy a seperate sub-sonic filter. My amps and corssover don't have one.


----------



## chad

mitchyz250f said:


> Can you buy a seperate sub-sonic filter. My amps and corssover don't have one.


Ummmm, I dunno.. I thought there was one out there, some line drivers have them, Audio Control for example. You can build one if you are handy, it's a simple shelving filter. You can get by without it, it's gonna take a bunch of power to hurt that sub, but if you think you are gonna slam one in a big car (like a van) and hit it with a kilowatt you may be disappointed.


----------



## chad

mitchyz250f said:


> I should get bonus points for getting Chad to share his secret.



Old Skool..... Make the enclosure efficient, EQ the **** you don't wan't out(subsonic), tailor a roll-off for the car, bring the gain up. how to use little power to accomplish a lot.

Even works for well thumpers if you play with it.


----------



## mvw2

chad said:


> I need to try out a DIYMA, that's all there is to it.


Yes, everyone should. Maybe if they were priced at $300-$400, more people would have bought them.  It'll be the last sub I'll ever give up.

Might be driving right by Champaign on 74 heading to Indianapolis in a few weeks for a little nerdliness. I can't say if there will be a sub in my car or not. I'm attempting subless, but the recent addition of a PG X600.1 and me liking the DIYMA may squeeze the thing back in my car. I might have to swing by and say hi if you're free Friday late on the way through.


----------



## mitchyz250f

The subsonic would be for two DYMA12, not the 10HO (sorry). I am a little concerned about hurting that sub, that's why I got TWO. 

Do you remeber the name of the filter.


----------



## chad

mitchyz250f said:


> The subsonic would be for two DYMA12, not the 10HO (sorry). I am a little concerned about hurting that sub, that's why I got TWO.
> 
> Do you remember the name of the filter.


Nope, don't remember. ANY subsonic filtering and low cut is going to prevent the sub from over excursion. Now remember this is with a vented enclosure that reaches way too low in a hatch, if you have the DIYMA in a small box then I would not pull back on the low end.

Also, are you sealed? They are more forgiving, see... a vented enclosure will unload below tuning so it can't control the driver as well, a sealed enclosure maintains control, it's not as critical in that app.


----------



## mvw2

npdang was gracious enough to address that issue by destroying a couple subs. The results were compression issues running such a tiny enclosure. There's only so much in terms of forces that the cone can support. The sub is a lot safer to run in a slightly larger box. For example, 1 cu.ft. sealed is safe to run past xmax off a whole lot of power, but a 0.25 cu.ft. box will destroy the sub with only a few mm of use and 400w.

Copy of his post off the DIYMA review thread:


npdang said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> After more detailed testing and driving 3 woofers to complete cone failure, I can say that for a fact smaller enclosures will dramatically reduce powerhandling. I tested a 1cft box, a .25cft box, and free-air.
> 
> In free-air I can be very close to xmax for a sustained 30mins without any problems. Pushing it beyond that required significantly more power, and I could bend the cone instantly with a hard enough kick/pop or sustained low frequency tone at near xmech... at which time I could also see clipping indicators going off on my 1400w amp. With a cheaper sub, you'd probably fry the cone at this point.
> 
> In the 1cft box, it's almost as good as free-air. Your excursion capability is reduced somewhat though. It's kind of noticeable to the eye, but it doesn't seem significant. I don't think many people would have problems here, but again it's possible if you're really pushing the sub hard.... you can definitely tell that things become more "violent" and not as effortless as before.
> 
> In a .25cft to .5cft with the same power there is significantly reduced excursion, but you can immediately tell that the "sound" is much less effortless. I couldn't get the driver to move very far at all even with a full range high amplitude signal. Hard use here will immediately bend the cone. Funny I can see one bend after another appearing slowly, even though the sub isn't moving nearly as much as before. It also has this much much more "violent" sound to it, as if it's struggling in that tiny box.
> 
> So my advice, if you're more of a "sq" oriented listener who balanced their sub to match their frontstage, you should be fine with a .25 to .5cft box.
> 
> For those that like a bit of bump and window vibrating, you always keep your levels +3db or higher on the sub... I'd stick with a 1cft box.


----------



## tcguy85

mvw2 said:


> Haha, bold statement for someone who hasn't heard what he's comparing.
> 
> I've listened to the DIYMA (own) and the Dayton Reference 12" HF (borrowed from brother for a while) I can't comment on the HO version though, but I'll say the HO is a better comparison given the sort of box setup between both.
> 
> The Dayton is a very light, crisp, and airy subwoofer. I like to call it squeaky clean, because frankly it sounds squeaky clean like you could rub your finger across the notes and it would audibly squeak. The sub is fun to listen to at higher frequencies. The enjoyment is enough so that I really would love to build some floor standing speakers with them.
> 
> In terms of musical reproduction, it is somewhat unnatural. The squeaky clean sound, although nice to listen to, isn't quite realistic. It's very good, but not perfect. The light and crisp notes are also, well, light and crisp, too much so. The sub lacks a little bit of heft and presence. There's the initial attack and then little else. It makes the sub feel weak.
> 
> I had an oddity running the HF 12" sealed (1.5 cu.ft.). For some reason the low frequency output sounded a little muddy and disconnected. I'm not sure why. It seemed uncontrolled in some way, but I'm not sure why. At the same time, the sub really never lost control. If you cranked it up, the sub would play pretty happily even blaring along, clean and crisp. The lower notes were just weird. I would like to give it a listen in a ported box sometime (whenever my brother gets around to building his home theater). It may solve the issue.
> 
> The DIYMA is a very different sub. It is, for lack of a better word, perfect. Ok, it's not perfect, but it's very, very close in most ways. The sub does nothing that makes it stand out or otherwise make it sound incorrect. There is no coloration. The sound from the sub is completely transparent. I explain this by the fact that you can have the sub sitting in front of you playing everything from 0-200Hz, and you can't locate the sound with it sitting right in front of you. This is a very, very tough thing to do. Basically it doesn't do anything wrong. This means absolutely nothing it does actually grabs your attention and localizes you to it. Sound is clean, open, natural. The low end response is robust and full-bodied, if you've got the wattage and sensitivity(ported), meaning it's not compressed or constrained. Sensitivity is middle of the road, but around 500w will take you a long ways. My ears haven't listened to a more accurate sub.
> 
> But would I chose the Dayton or another sub? Sure, if it suited my goals and tastes. It all depends on what kind of sound you're shooting for. That's sort of why there's a thousand choices to chose from, to fit particular applications and taste.


from the way you describe the HF, i feel the HO must sound quite a bit different.


----------



## tcguy85

mitchyz250f: you bought some HO's?

if you are worried about hurting them, don't! i have my single ten on 600+ watts ported w/o a subsonic filter being used. i have no worries about the sub AT ALL. i have pleyed some super low stuff through it and didn't feel that i was in danger of hurting it.


----------



## mvw2

Yeah, tough to say how different they are. It is a completely different gearing, but it's also largely the same subwoofer by hardware. If both versions where put in a appropriate "equal" enclosures, one would sort of expect a similar end result in terms of raw characteristics, short the differences in sensitivity and frequency response. In the end, you're sitting at a similar final Q with nearly identical components.


----------



## tcguy85

mvw2 said:


> Yeah, tough to say how different they are. It is a completely different gearing, but it's also largely the same subwoofer by hardware. If both versions where put in a appropriate "equal" enclosures, one would sort of expect a similar end result in terms of raw characteristics, short the differences in sensitivity and frequency response. In the end, you're sitting at a similar final Q with nearly identical components.


yea. i have no idea. i just wouldn't describe the HO like you are describing the HF. thats all.


----------



## kornsined

mvw2 thanks for sharing your thoughts on what you thought of the 2 different subs.


----------



## tcguy85

kornsined said:


> mvw2 thanks for sharing your thoughts on what you thought of the 2 different subs.


yes, but keep in mind he was talking about the Dayton *HF* not *HO*.


----------



## mvw2

tcguy85 said:


> yea. i have no idea. i just wouldn't describe the HO like you are describing the HF. thats all.


Also depends on the enclosure, the car, and any tuning too. The same sub in two different installs will not sound the same. But yeah, I'm speaking of the HF version of the 12". How that compares to the HO version or even the 10" versions or 15", I don't know.


----------



## kidwolf909

mvw2 said:


> Also depends on the enclosure, the car, and any tuning too. The same sub in two different installs will not sound the same. But yeah, I'm speaking of the HF version of the 12". How that compares to the HO version or even the 10" versions or 15", I don't know.


Do they make a 15" HO? I hadn't seen that yet.


----------



## bobditts

dayton HO 15"


----------



## MidnightCE

You guys are really tempting me here.


----------



## kidwolf909

bobditts said:


> dayton HO 15"


**** sure enough... I had never seen that before. Thing looks like a beast! I love my 10 though, soooooo beautiful


----------



## kornsined

tcguy85 said:


> yes, but keep in mind he was talking about the Dayton *HF* not *HO*.


I understand. 

I know a ported 10" HO will probably have more output then a sealed DIYMA. Either way they are great subs for cheap. It's all about tastes and how you tune the sub with the box.

These subs work good for me too because they're 4ohm. I've got a 2 ch but if I bridge it the subs will get roughly 600rms.


----------



## chad

tcguy85 said:


> from the way you describe the HF, i feel the HO must sound quite a bit different.


Have you heard the HO sealed?

It IS pretty clinical.... and if the HF is MORE clinical I think the review is totally valid in his observations.


----------



## MidnightCE

clinical?


----------



## tcguy85

yea i'm also not sure what is meant by clinical. i'm going to guess something about lacking output. but i could be wrong. i could easily plug my port and see how it sounds in .7 sealed. maybe i should try it just to know how it sounds sealed.


----------



## chad

tcguy85 said:


> yea i'm also not sure what is meant by clinical. i'm going to guess something about lacking output. but i could be wrong. i could easily plug my port and see how it sounds in .7 sealed. maybe i should try it just to know how it sounds sealed.


Do it, plug it tight, bring the gain up a tad. 

Chad


----------



## tcguy85

chad said:


> Do it, plug it tight, bring the gain up a tad.
> 
> Chad


just stuffing a t-shirt in there should plug it up right? that should do just fine just to test it out? 

i doubt i'll like the results as much as ported but i'll give it a try for a day or two if it's easy enough just to hear what it sounds like sealed.


----------



## chad

tcguy85 said:


> just stuffing a t-shirt in there should plug it up right? that should do just fine just to test it out?
> 
> i doubt i'll like the results as much as ported but i'll give it a try for a day or two if it's easy enough just to hear what it sounds like sealed.


Stuff it up really good, and seal the box, when you CAREFULLY push down on the driver it should move up nice and slow and resist you as much as possible.


----------



## tcguy85

chad said:


> Stuff it up really good, and seal the box, when you CAREFULLY push down on the driver it should move up nice and slow and resist you as much as possible.


ok, i'll try it one of these days just to see. don't know when i'll get around to it but someday.


----------



## MidnightCE

can anyone compare it in output to an IDQ10?


----------



## chad

MidnightCE said:


> can anyone compare it in output to an IDQ10?


I can't , was thinking about buying KDAME's but laxed out.


----------



## little_devil

I think i'll pick up two of these


----------



## tcguy85

little_devil said:


> I think i'll pick up two of these


go for it! you should be impressed.


----------



## kkatiraq

I plan on using one or two of these in a mustang convertible. Bassforms makes a custom glass box(s) I want to use. Separate box for the left and right side of the trunk. I plan to try it out with one, then add another if not enough output. Anyway, the boxes have .84 cubic ft left side and .7 right side cubic feet. Dimensions are 20"x13"x16". Any warnings against going with this? The boxes are sealed, not ported. Will use 600RMS per sub.


----------



## tcguy85

hmmm.... i would guess them being different sizes wouldn't be ideal. but then again it might make no difference anyway. 

buuuttt, you could always fill the bigger one with some thing to take up a little bit of space so they could be the same size.


----------



## kkatiraq

tcguy85 said:


> hmmm.... i would guess them being different sizes wouldn't be ideal. but then again it might make no difference anyway.
> 
> buuuttt, you could always fill the bigger one with some thing to take up a little bit of space so they could be the same size.


I wil try it out with one first. If I am not happy, I will get the second one. I have a 600RMS/4ohm mono amp that pushes 1200RMS/2ohm, so expandability isn't a problem. I have limited trunk space, so I am trying to preserve as much as possible. Which box size would be better to try first, the .84cu ft or the .7 cu ft?


----------



## Oliver

kkatiraq said:


> I wil try it out with one first. If I am not happy, I will get the second one. I have a 600RMS/4ohm mono amp that pushes 1200RMS/2ohm, so expandability isn't a problem. I have limited trunk space, so I am trying to preserve as much as possible. Which box size would be better to try first, the .84cu ft or the .7 cu ft?


Sand in a ziploc baggie will lessen box volume.
polyfil wil increase [volume as seen by the driver ].

I would get them and make the required adjustment !


----------



## tcguy85

kkatiraq said:


> I wil try it out with one first. If I am not happy, I will get the second one. I have a 600RMS/4ohm mono amp that pushes 1200RMS/2ohm, so expandability isn't a problem. I have limited trunk space, so I am trying to preserve as much as possible. *Which box size would be better to try first, the .84cu ft or the .7 cu ft?*


i'd get whichever side you think would look better in your trunk to your eyes. for some reason for side firing i prefer the look of the sub being on the left and firing to the right. not sure why though.


----------



## chad

chad said:


> Have you seen the most recent enclosure? The old one is in the shed.... there is an owl living in it now
> 
> Chad


So I'm working on this wideband project and needed ONE more set of naner plugs and had tho chase the owl out of the box to retrieve them. Boy was he pissed! But the little **** sat next to the shop door and waited on me to bring it back out. I gave him some more polyfill, put it back and he's in there now cooing like it's nobody's buisness!

Weird!


----------



## tcguy85

chad said:


> So I'm working on this wideband project and needed ONE more set of naner plugs and had tho chase the owl out of the box to retrieve them. Boy was he pissed! But the little **** sat next to the shop door and waited on me to bring it back out. I gave him some more polyfill, put it back and he's in there now cooing like it's nobody's buisness!
> 
> Weird!


oh god. thats so funny man.


----------



## chad

Country livin  

I guess I now have a pet owl..... which is cool


----------



## kornsined

Best box built EVER!!


----------



## mitchyz250f

Chad wrote:
With that you could conclude, do a subsonic a bit below tuning, mine's at 28Hz and make sure it's sharp. THEN bring the sub up to your normal "get at it" level nice and solid on the volume, not hammering, just good and solid. Now, make a really steep Q Parametric set it all the way down in freq, and dump it.

Now bring the freq of that filter up till you just notice it, then a bit more. 

Widen the slope

Bring the sub gain up.

throw down....

What do you get?

Play with slope, and gain till it hits you.

Go for a drive, you may want to bring the slope out a bit or the freq down, but not much!


Chad can you discribe this with a little less slang, please?


----------



## Generalg

Anyone help me out in figuring out if the 10" Dayton HO will fit in this subthump box??? I'm looking to try and use a pair of the Dayton HO's in my GMC Crew Cab truck.

Specs on the box.
mounting depth: 5.5"
air space: .55ea.

The mounting depth looks to be safe. The volume? Enough? After seeing some pictures of this HO sub in this thread I'm not sure on the fitment into this box as the magnet is HUGE! SubThump recomends to use an eD 10" sub. So maybe someone with a eD and a Dayton HO can compare the size for me?


Here's the box.
http://www.subthump.com/chlt.htm












Thanks


----------



## chad

Parts express has all the dimensions listed for the Dayton, the Subthump website gives you max mag diameter and depth. One would be Iffy in my taste in that small of an enclosure, 2 should do just fine with proper feeding.


----------



## chrisw85

The HO 10", from my understanding, love small enclosures. Get two of them and feed them 600W to 1000W at 2 ohms and you'll be pretty happy.

Chad, how much does the motor of the HO 10" displace?


----------



## matt62485

i dunno for sure but i was guessing somewhere in the .05 region for each, thats what ive been using to account for driver displacement for them, im waitin on my 10 ho's to come in. still debating the ported/sealed route, looks like im going sealed, got plenty of power to throw on em, i was thinking .65 net sealed for each

edit: looking back PE says its .08 disp. ea. for the 10s, seems a lil big but hell whatever.


----------



## BEAVER

.08 indeed. .55cft. should be just fine, just don't expect a lot of output, from what I understand.


----------



## matt62485

w00t, made an update in my install log, just did a lot of number crunching since i posted this (the previous post) and i THINK i finally figured out my final enclosure decision...

edit: thinkng/reading > me


----------



## ehkewley

Bump!



mitchyz250f said:


> Chad wrote:
> With that you could conclude, do a subsonic a bit below tuning, mine's at 28Hz and make sure it's sharp. THEN bring the sub up to your normal "get at it" level nice and solid on the volume, not hammering, just good and solid. Now, make a really steep Q Parametric set it all the way down in freq, and dump it.
> 
> Now bring the freq of that filter up till you just notice it, then a bit more.
> 
> Widen the slope
> 
> Bring the sub gain up.
> 
> throw down....
> 
> What do you get?
> 
> Play with slope, and gain till it hits you.
> 
> Go for a drive, you may want to bring the slope out a bit or the freq down, but not much!
> 
> 
> Chad can you discribe this with a little less slang, please?


I think this post was the last on a page and got ignored. Chad do you mind elaborating on this for us? 

My best guess  was that you were saying, add a subsonic filter near tuning frequency, bump up the gains, and then add a wide slope cut filter between the high and low end frequency ranges for the sub.. cutting instead of boosting?


----------



## BLD 25

anyone want to compile the useful posts from this thread to somewhere else without the pages and pages of useless chatter? this thread really got OT!


----------



## BEAVER

ehkewley said:


> Bump!
> 
> 
> 
> I think this post was the last on a page and got ignored. Chad do you mind elaborating on this for us?
> 
> My best guess  was that you were saying, add a subsonic filter near tuning frequency, bump up the gains, and then add a wide slope cut filter between the high and low end frequency ranges for the sub.. cutting instead of boosting?


If I'm reading it correctly, which I may not be, he's suggesting a wide q cut from the tuning frequency(+/-) to the bottom on top of the subsonic filter. This would essentially remove the excess bass caused by cabin gain. 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## MiniVanMan

BEAVER said:


> If I'm reading it correctly, which I may not be, he's suggesting a wide q cut from the tuning frequency(+/-) to the bottom on top of the subsonic filter. This would essentially remove the excess bass caused by cabin gain.
> 
> Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


That's most of it. What it's allowing you to do is get a bit more output from the sub above tuning frequency.

This will help avoid bottoming out the sub, resonance peaks, and excess cabin gain below resonance, and tuning. 

You'll get tighter, more accurate bass, plus the added bonus of more output. 

The drawback? No output below 30 hz. However, there's so little music out there that plays below that that it's not that big of a sacrifice. Plus, if it's something you're worried about, get a 15" not a 10".

In the end, Chad is saying that this sub can really THROW DOWN, when tuned properly, while maintaining it's accuracy, and articulate nature.


----------



## BEAVER

Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## matt62485

hmmm so what exactly does the Q do... i have the option of 1, 1.5 or 3 on my 9887... if ur referring to the same thing. its on the panaramic eq part. does it adjust something to do with the bandwidth etc? is it the same as the "q factor"


----------



## BEAVER

Q, in this case, controls the width of the boost or cut you are making. 1 is narrow, 3 is wide.


----------



## Tambiengabriel

I owned this sub and its a great, great sub for the price. A little less SQ than the IDQv3, but played lower and I thought more efficient.


----------



## BEAVER

Tambiengabriel said:


> I owned this sub and its a great, great sub for the price. *A little less SQ than the IDQv3*, but played lower and I thought more efficient.


To most, them's fightin' words 'round here...


----------



## matt62485

oh hell time to sell my ho's and get some idq's. lol jk, aint even got my ho's yet. robbyho said they should be here soon. 

thanks beaver for the info. guess i couldnt hear the difference on the stock rears powred by the deck right now. still running wires, etc. slow process right now


----------



## BEAVER

And to think that I'm considering doing the opposite, offing my IDQv3's for HO10's...


----------



## matt62485

BEAVER said:


> And to think that I'm considering doing the opposite, offing my IDQv3's for HO10's...


lol im keepin my ho10s, i was jk with the comment above. im still scratching my damn head trying to figure out how im going to port them. i wish ida realized how big the txa6004s were b4 i ordered em, ida went with something much smaller, but oh well. i was trying to keep some hatch space, but its lookin very unlikely now.


----------



## bass_lover1

BEAVER said:


> And to think that I'm considering doing the opposite, offing my IDQv3's for HO10's...


Eh, I've got a DIYMA R12 here that may just replace the HOs  

Gotta test it and see if I'll be happy with the output going from the HOs ported to a single 12 sealed. My guess is no, so then two will be in order


----------



## typericey

BEAVER said:


> Q, in this case, controls the width of the boost or cut you are making. 1 is narrow, 3 is wide.


It's actually 3 narrow, 1 wide.


----------



## BEAVER

typericey said:


> It's actually 3 narrow, 1 wide.


You know what? You're right, my bad...


----------



## mitchyz250f

Chad, rereading this old post. I ws surprised to see you had your sub at 63 Hz. It seems on some of the other post yoou have made that you recommend a xo at something higher. Why the low crossover, did you ever experiment with higher crossovers? Great, informative thread.


----------



## chad

I've been slowly inching the crossover up, partially due to a Seas CA18RNX that is on it's last leg. I think I'm at 80 or 100 now with no gapping or possibly a slight overlap using the slopes. The driver is perfectly happy and clean playing higher. a nice virtue of these.


----------



## matt62485

so ur running ur sub up around 80-100 and the mids crossed higher as well? my mach5s play pretty well at 63 but they do sound cleaner at 80... i just love the punchiness from them. i might have to play around a bit.


----------



## chad

matt62485 said:


> so ur running ur sub up around 80-100 and the mids crossed higher as well? my mach5s play pretty well at 63 but they do sound cleaner at 80... i just love the punchiness from them. i might have to play around a bit.


Run them where they are cleaner. There's not a whole lot of punch at 63-80


----------



## matt62485

well, i dont know how to explain it but ill play with it. maybe i just need to get used to it


----------



## X Ray

I just pulled the trigger on this sub.  I'm all about 12's, but space is very limited in this application. My trunk is ridiculously small. 

I also picked up the cheapie goldwood slot ported box from partsexpress along with the sub. We'll see how it works out. 

The recession REALLY put a serious hurt on me financially, so this install that started back in late '07 will finally get finished. 

I'll keep you guys posted.


----------



## kai-wun

Hai.

Chad's run 240W to this driver and it seems to do okay.

Would 200W bridged be too little? 

I'm considering a couple of 4ch amps (front 2ch to PPI compies) rear 2ch bridged for this amp. On a super budget.

Cerwin Vega EXL400.4 60Wx4, 200W bridged.
US Acoustic USB4085 85Wx4, 240W bridged.
MB Quart Discus DSC4125 125Wx4, 500W bridged.
Planet Audio BB175.4B 140Wx4, 345W bridged.

Two good quality amps, likely do near rated power. Two unknown quality amps, likely underrated ... *sigh* super low budget


----------



## chad

depends on the vehicle. I get by with lower power because I have a rather small vehicle.


----------



## ehkewley

kai-wun said:


> Hai.
> 
> Chad's run 240W to this driver and it seems to do okay.
> 
> Would 200W bridged be too little?
> 
> I'm considering a couple of 4ch amps (front 2ch to PPI compies) rear 2ch bridged for this amp. On a super budget.
> 
> Cerwin Vega EXL400.4 60Wx4, 200W bridged.
> US Acoustic USB4085 85Wx4, 240W bridged.
> MB Quart Discus DSC4125 125Wx4, 500W bridged.
> Planet Audio BB175.4B 140Wx4, 345W bridged.
> 
> Two good quality amps, likely do near rated power. Two unknown quality amps, likely underrated ... *sigh* super low budget


What type of vehicle are you running it in? I'm currently pushing 250 through a single 10" HO in an SUV. It's not enough for me, so I'm picking up a 500 watt amp and another driver soon. If you're in a smaller vehicle it might work well however. 

Also is it sealed or ported?


----------



## chad

here's an example of what that sub in your car will do kai, just remembered it was you 

It's in my garage right now, plugged intot he wall, playing an old smashing pumpkings album and there is **** falling off the shelving on the other side of the wall in my workshop.

Same car you have, BUT the low end does steer forward.

Have not benched the JL yet to see what it's actually making. if i get bored tonight after my maintenance chores aI may do so..... naaah, don't wanna drag my scope out there on second thought


----------



## ehkewley

Sorry Chad, I didn't see your reply before I posted.


----------



## chad

ehkewley said:


> Sorry Chad, I didn't see your reply before I posted.


I think we smacked send at about the same time


----------



## kai-wun

ehkewley said:


> What type of vehicle are you running it in? I'm currently pushing 250 through a single 10" HO in an SUV. It's not enough for me, so I'm picking up a 500 watt amp and another driver soon. If you're in a smaller vehicle it might work well however.
> 
> Also is it sealed or ported?


02 Civic Hatch  Love her!



chad said:


> here's an example of what that sub in your car will do kai, just remembered it was you
> 
> It's in my garage right now, plugged intot he wall, playing an old smashing pumpkings album and there is **** falling off the shelving on the other side of the wall in my workshop.
> 
> Same car you have, BUT the low end does steer forward.
> 
> Have not benched the JL yet to see what it's actually making.  if i get bored tonight after my maintenance chores aI may do so..... naaah, don't wanna drag my scope out there on second thought


Hehe ... great to hear! I recall you were running it off the 5th channel of a Next amp, and it seemed okay. It's just it seems like the Cerwin Vega is a great deal ... just a tiny bit underpowered. Could pay a little more extra for a little more power, but not sure how much more extra how much more power lol ....


----------



## chad

kai-wun said:


> 02 Civic Hatch  Love her!
> 
> 
> 
> Hehe ... great to hear! I recall you were running it off the 5th channel of a Next amp, and it seemed okay. It's just it seems like the Cerwin Vega is a great deal ... just a tiny bit underpowered. Could pay a little more extra for a little more power, but not sure how much more extra how much more power lol ....


runnning it off of a JL 500/5 now... 5 ch amp, 250 ish sub channel. You need one of those IF you go active, it's not crazy powerful, I would like a bit more about 5% of the time on a hot sunny day, but 95% of the time it's just fine. Nice ting is the beefy 100W per "door" speaker and a 25W to a tweet I have yet to run out of.

Sub and mids break up at about the same time, not a bad deal.

You can find them cheap around here, if you can find a blown freebie I think JL will rebuild it for two-fiddy.

One amp, no distro block money, no issue, one wire back, fuse at the battery.


----------



## kai-wun

Kay so I've narrowed it down to between:

US Acoustic USB4085 85Wx4, 240W bridged.
MB Quart Discus DSC4125 125Wx4, 500W bridged.

The US Acoustics amp is Zed designed, so it should be good quality though it's produced overseas. 85W should be plenty for my components, but I'm a bit concerned the 240W bridged wont be enough headroom for the HO. However, if these ratings are slightly underrated.. that'd be nice.

The MB Quart is made by Maxxsonics. Though it seems to do near rated power (at least 100W/ch I'd hope), I'm weary of the SQ. And reliability. But then again ... it's comparing new (this one) and refurb (US Acoustics) 

Decisions decisions....


----------



## mark1478

im debating this sub. Im coming off a JLw3 in my g35 sedan. My fiberglass box is .8 cuFt. How do you think this would do? enclosure too big?


----------



## Mark the Bold

Bringing this thread back from the dead; 

Chad; do you have a picture of your final ported (30 Hz) sub from this thread? I see the original but I would like to see the final result if can. It would give me a good starting point to make mine.

Much appreciated...


----------



## chad

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-build-logs/23845-2007-my-civic-si.html


----------



## Mark the Bold

Great. Thanks for the link. 

Now I'm using a pretty ghetto box design software but to get your port length my vent cross section seems really small (see attachment) from this website
Speaker Enclosure Volume Calculator

I know there is a lot I dont know about ported box calcs, so I hope to shamelessly copy your calcs if you would be so kind as to share it; Basically I will use a simpler "cubic" box with a vent arrangement similar to yours but without fiberglassing.

I went through your post and got all the following information:

" Boom Transporter " length = 28.625"
Box Volume = 0.70 ft^3

I will use AUTOCAD to design my custom box, but I was wondering if you could help a noob out with three quick answers:

(a) What was your vent cross sectional area? I didnt see it in the post. Are you getting any port noise? It seems under 3" from the pics.

(b) Would you recommend I use your PVC tube solution rather than a vented port? Basically I plan to construct a labyrinth style vent on the back side of the box of the length calculated. Will the PVC give better results? 

(3) The speaker port calculator website seemed a little vague. Is the "vent / port" volume is calculated as part of the 0.70 ft^3 or seperate to it? For instance if I want a box volume of 0.70Ft, my port volume is calculated in this number?

THanks. Hope these questions makes sense


----------



## chad

the enclosure requires around 6 square inches of vent area, I'm at around 6.5 or a bit more IIRC on the current box and have no noise.

I KNOW it sounds small but remember that the tuning frequency is dependent on the vent area, if I were to tune higher the vent would require a different vent area.

MY PVC mess was an afterthought one night with me wanting to TRY a vented enclosure after doing some math. If you can make it look acceptable to you then go for it. There was just no way I could have made it work in the current deign or I would have done it, trust me 

The attachment is not working at the moment, I think it's a site thing not your fault. I'll check back later.


----------



## Mark the Bold

Thanks again Chad. Attached is the sub box I plan on doing for my10" Reference HO. Basically I am using your findings as gospel with the following assumptions:

Box Volume = 0.6692 ft^3
Port Frequency = 29 Hz
Port Length = 26.68 inches
Port Cross Section = 2" x 3"

From reading your "watermark" post, and my very noob understanding of accoustic physics, I deduced that the port length / port cross sectional area is essentially based on port air volume and not necessarily length. As such, AUTOCAD is wonderful at calc'ing these so I sketched up a simple box; one showning dimensions and the other showing a rough layout of the vent in the back.

So from AUTOCAD, I calc'd the volume of the port I designed and worked backwards with the calc sheet to see what port frequency that "length" volume would give me. Ideally I would like to go with a 0.7 ft^3 box but it would require me adding in another few turns in the port design to get a 30 Hz tuning frequency. So 0.67 ft^3 with a 29Hz tuned frequency was a sweet spot and still keeping the port / vent design simple and easy to build. Also my amp has a built in subsonic filter at 27 Hz so the close I get the safer I'd feel even though its only a few Hz.

Your original PVC tube design had a 0.67 ft^3 box volume and you said it sounded great so I took that as gospel.

Appreciate all the help you gave us DIY'ers, but I would appreciate your comments on my build. I just got the sub today (it's a beauty!) and will begin to build this bad boy this weekend.

Let me know your thoughts, or if you think I should revamp my design.

Cheers,
Mark

EDIT: Also, this sub will be downfiring; should I change my design at all to account for this?


----------



## MiniVanMan

Actually, that looks pretty nice.

My only concern is that Chad doesn't run a lot of power to his sub, so port noise _might_ be an issue if you throw a good amount of juice into it. I'd say you'll be fine up to about 300 watts, but if you want to throw the whole 500-600 watts into then you'll want a bigger port to avoid chuffing (port noise).

Of course, if you're running a little hatchback like he is, you won't need much power. His will put a rumbly in your tumbly off the little power he utilizes.

Just something to think about. Let me know what kind of power you plan on throwing at it and I can give you the necessary port area.


----------



## Mark the Bold

I have a 2007 Tacoma Access Cab. I am total SQ centered; I rarely pump it unless I am out with the boys. My current sub, ED 13k2, was not properly sized for the box and I find it hard to get consistent smooth bass out of a sealed box in my small truck. I am using a Kicker ZX700.5. It was benchtested at 917w per Kicker, so it safely puts out 210w @ 4 ohm on the sub channel.

The rest of my system is:

Pioneer DEH-880PRS Headunit
Audiocontrol 3XS Active Crossover
Kicker ZX700.5 5 channel Amp
Usher 9950 Tweeters up Front (crossed at 1700Hz approx)
Dayton Reference 7" Woofers (crossed between 80Hz and 1700Hz)
(THIS SUB - For 30Hz - 80Hz)


----------



## chad

MiniVanMan said:


> My only concern is that Chad doesn't run a lot of power to his sub, so port noise _might_ be an issue if you throw a good amount of juice into it. I'd say you'll be fine up to about 300 watts, but if you want to throw the whole 500-600 watts into then you'll want a bigger port to avoid chuffing (port noise).



The port chuffs right before the speaker barks, and barking is BAD.. FYI (to Mark)

BUT then again, things may just be going TOTALLY non-linear.


----------



## Mark the Bold

chad said:


> The port chuffs right before the speaker barks, and barking is BAD.. FYI (to Mark)
> 
> BUT then again, things may just be going TOTALLY non-linear.


I am confused what you mean by this?


----------



## chad

the chuffing is a warning sign that you have VERY little "right end" of the volume control to go before the driver bottoms out, although I have not decided if it actually DOES bottom out or runs out of gas and sounds like ****. But if it's firing into a floor, chances are, you will never hear chuffing, and with that enclosure and the complex vent alignment I'd go a BIT larger and plan accordingly... It CAN be challenging.

If you do it right you can have a little-bitty box that kicks ass, if you over-engineer then you have a huge box, a small driver and a ton of vent.

FWIW I have never got to that point in my car, I run out of amp, I ran the **** out of it in my shop with a large amp.


----------



## chad

Where is the sub in the truck? Are you boundary loading?


----------



## Mark the Bold

I dont necessarily have to downfire it. I just normally prefer the sound of down firing subs in this particular truck. It will be behind the passenger seat of my Taco. See pic.

Based on my design should I face it forward? Backward? upward? You guys are the pros.

EDIT: And by going a "Bit Larger" do you mean a larger enclose or a larger vent cross section area?

EDIT EDIT: Also, I will only have 200w of amp AT MOST to load it with so I doubt I will overload it. As for "complex" vent alignment, I tried to make it as simple as possible and keep it within a small box. Your suggestions are most welcome; I thought a "C" shaped vent would be better than a "S" shaped one.

Thanks


----------



## Mark the Bold

Forgot to attach pic.


----------



## chad

I'm an integration freak as you could tell. Invisible for the most part.. and givent hat pic I'm scratching my head. 

As for your question, front firing or rear firing. it REALLY does not matter but math says it does better that way.. it sounds the damn same either way... get it in a corner. Te floor may be hurting you with downfiring, the Dayton can play remarkably high without distortion or artifacts, you can gain something there but not shooting it in a floor with carpet.

Where do you WANT to put the enclosure a let's work from there.. there are many different installs and options with that truck.


----------



## Mark the Bold

OK. Also, please note that I have the entire CAB Dynamatted (actually RAAMMATTED) with ensolite on top of it, so I dont need that much bass for it to sound good in there. The previous picture was from the Toyota website. I am a sales rep so I am near always travelling with a briefcase, product samples, etc. so I prefered having the ability to "move" a sub if I need it.

The problem I had when I first installed the system was amp placement, and the fact that I live in a quasi-ghetto neighborhood (Phoenix). The best place for the amp would have been on the back panel, but it would have been WAY too visible for the local hoodrats, regardless on my alarm system. 

As such I installed it under my drivers seat with the active crossover attached to the underside of the same seat. The back end is poking out the back. I will update a pic shortly; but I am sure you get the idea. Hey I'm not trying to impress anybody. I just wanted it minimized.

Regarding a stealth install, I looked at all the options from here:
Show off your custom interior and/or system - Page 4 - CustomTacos.com Forum
and nothing really floated my boat. I am adverse to mounting the sub in the rear suicide door for obvious reasons. I wish I had a trunk.

Anyway CHad, were you thinking more of a solution like the pics? AS for you scratching your head; I was concerned with the accoustic properties of the box rather than how it looks in my truck.

Oh and to answer your last question, I want to put it behind the passengers seat. With my current box, I tried many positions in the truck and I always found behind passenger seat downfiring sounded best.


----------



## Oliver

chad said:


> Well, I have had the Dayton in tha car now for 1 week and am ready to share some opinions. First off it's not a SPL sub if you want to use a conservative amount of power. I initially was concerned with it's output but now have decided that I love it! It is running off the high power channel of a Next VRz5.500. It is a very smooth, high fidelity sub. Although it is now mated to the stock speakers it blends nicely.
> 
> My first words to describe it is "dry" and "Effortless" It does not have that bumpy "car sub" sound. For example a kick drum has a wonderful initial attack, you can feel the batter hit the head and it GONE! Very uber cool to me! If the kick is ringy it does not over do the ring. Hip-hop is neat, if you are a musician you can damn near tell what synth or process they are using to make the drone. Lower bass guitar is clean and again effortless, the sustain in no way gets in the way of the pluck, you can hear great definition. In fact I may try the sub full range soon in the studio on an upright bass just to hear it
> 
> Just a quick note. I'll post again when it gets mated up to some real speakers!
> 
> Chad


----------



## Mark the Bold

Well, thanks to Parts-Express I couldnt get started on this project until last week. The day I ordered the Sub, Parts-Express told me that it was backordered until 6/29/2010 ( over a month) so I just got it last week. Well enough complaining. Finally got it put together and it sounds awesome. A massive improvement over my old sub. It doesnt have the tightness of my old sub, but a much better sound all around and my amp more than powers it sufficiently. Long story short, I managed to get a hold of some structural plywood through work for free that I am sure performs as well as, if not better than, MDF. Plus I dont have to deal with the "wicked boogers" Chad complained about. Anyway, thanks Chad for doing all the beta-testing of this particular sub. I truly am standing on the shoulders of giants for this one. Rep +

Aside: Dont know what tunes you guys "bench" test your subs on, but I like Nine Inch Nails - Slip - Discipline, and Nine Inch Nails - Downward Spiral - Closer for hi power bass testing. Trent Reznor is an awesome producer and I have both these CD's in hi-def formats. Also, IMHO the definitive hi-fidelity bass test comes from Tool - Lateralus - Reflection. There's nary a sub out there that doesnt generate a buzz from the drum / bass guitar harmony in the 5 minute "intro". Not this one though.


----------



## chad

For tightness, you are vented, it's making BIG low end in a car, pull some of the 30 and sub 30 stuff out with EQ and it will line right up.

As for the back-order... DUDE, there have been 2 for sale here barely used while you were waiting, one went UBER cheap.


----------



## Mark the Bold

Such is life. I dont have a high itrader rating so I'm not sure if I qualified to buy through this site. Oh well....


----------



## chad

you can buy with a low trader rating.

Oh well though, you got it and it's running, that's all that counts.

What do you have it tuned at? I believe I missed in the pics as to how you had the vent configured.


----------



## chad

Edit, I have it figured out. That's pretty damn innovative. thinking outside the box, never seen it done that way before.


----------



## Mark the Bold

Thanks for the kind words.

It worked out to be tuned at around 28-29Hz based on calculations. EDIT: I did this because my amp has a built in sub-sonic crossover frequency of 25Hz so I thought this a safe start point. The only thing I wasnt completely sure of is whether the "hole" (front of port) in the top right of the box should be calculated as part of the box volume or the port volume. Most likely it is still considered part of the box volume.

I had to go with a cross section of 12" x 12" to make it fit flush behind my seat; I adjusted the volume with the length direction, in this case 14.75" worked well.

Everything went pretty smooth except I had to use a Skil saw for my cuts so nothing was perfectly square; you can see that from when I put on the front where the front is slightly too small. Also, I had never worked with cabinet carpet so my seams are more visible than I liked. But hey, good enough for the girls I go out with.


----------



## laxcat73

very impressive build mark. you certainly are good at fabrication!


----------



## Mark the Bold

laxcat73 said:


> very impressive build mark. you certainly are good at fabrication!


Thanks. Although I put vasoline on the camera lens to hide my shoddy carpetting job.


----------



## Mark the Bold

Hey Chad,

Just wanted to thank you again for doing Yeoman's work on this sub. I can't tell you how much I am enjoying this sub in my truck. The ported output sounds so much more musical in my small truck cab than my old IDmax sealed sub.

BTW; my friend wanted me to do an install in his 2008 Tundra double cab. However, he listens almost enitrely to hip-hop/rap and plays his music ridiculously loud. I have lots of room to make a larger box (1.5ft^3 to 2.0 ft^3), and will have a 600w Sundown amp on the sub channel. Do you recommend the 10" HO / HF or 12" HF Dayton reference ? I know and love the 10" Reference but I don't listen to it at continuously obnoxiously loud levels that I am sure he will. I am unsure if it will hold up. I saw you had some experience with the Titanic MKII subs on another thread so this is why I ask. Please and thank you.


----------



## MiniVanMan

Mark the Bold said:


> Hey Chad,
> 
> Just wanted to thank you again for doing Yeoman's work on this sub. I can't tell you how much I am enjoying this sub in my truck. The ported output sounds so much more musical in my small truck cab than my old IDmax sealed sub.
> 
> BTW; my friend wanted me to do an install in his 2008 Tundra double cab. However, he listens almost enitrely to hip-hop/rap and plays his music ridiculously loud. I have lots of room to make a larger box (1.5ft^3 to 2.0 ft^3), and will have a 600w Sundown amp on the sub channel. Do you recommend the 10" HO / HF or 12" HF Dayton reference ? I know and love the 10" Reference but I don't listen to it at continuously obnoxiously loud levels that I am sure he will. I am unsure if it will hold up. I saw you had some experience with the Titanic MKII subs on another thread so this is why I ask. Please and thank you.


You don't gain much by going to the 12. One of the anomalies with this line of subs. That's why the 10 gets so much love. You'll notice we don't recommend the line of subs, but rather just the 10" specifically.

So, that being said, I'd just double up some 10's. It also depends on what load that amp produces it 600 watts.


----------



## Mark the Bold

Thanks Minivanman. Reasoning with this guy is pointless, but I'll make up some BS to convince him to go with the 10". He's one of those guys who puts a spoiler on a front wheel drive car. 

Anyway, I do have room for a pretty large box in this install. Around 1.5 ft^3 based on prelim estimates. Having said that, heard the 10" HF performs well in a larger box; more so than the HO in a small. Agree? Please and thank you.


----------



## Cruzer

chad said:


> My first words to describe it is "dry" and "Effortless" It does not have that bumpy "car sub" sound. For example a kick drum has a wonderful initial attack, you can feel the batter hit the head and it GONE! Very uber cool to me! If the kick is ringy it does not over do the ring. Hip-hop is neat, if you are a musician you can damn near tell what synth or process they are using to make the drone. Lower bass guitar is clean and again effortless, the sustain in no way gets in the way of the pluck, you can hear great definition. In fact I may try the sub full range soon in the studio on an upright bass just to hear it


So is it a good thing or a bad thing? do you like it sounding like that, or do u miss the bumpy car sub sound?

btw have u heard any image dynamics subs?

would have pmed u but cant =/


----------



## Mark the Bold

I love mine. I don't have as eloquent a review as Chad did, but I agree totally of the very natural kick-drum and bass guitar sound the ported sub creates. I've had ID, ED and MB Quart Premium subs in my vehicles before and the Dayton is still hands down my favorite.


----------



## Cruzer

Mark the Bold said:


> I love mine. I don't have as eloquent a review as Chad did, but I agree totally of the very natural kick-drum and bass guitar sound the ported sub creates. I've had ID, ED and MB Quart Premium subs in my vehicles before and the Dayton is still hands down my favorite.


thanks!


----------



## JayinMI

Love mine...may add a second.


----------



## SynRG

Sorry, I have read several pages of the thread off an on as time allows, but lost track of what the "optimum" enclosure is considered to be. 
What size has evolved to be the optimum size sealed? 
What size at this point is by consensus the best ported, and with what size and length port? 
Thanks


----------



## hottcakes

chad said:


> Vented
> 
> .7 CuFt tuned to 30 cycles.
> 
> You probably will not like the output sealed, it also works the driver too hard for my taste.


thats from here. 

although .66667 cu ft tuned to 30hz is what big daddy refers to several times in various threads. .03 difference.

other thread 

and another

one more.

i was looking into this recently myself. i searched and bookmarked some threads just to make sure.


----------



## JayinMI

I believe I went with .685 (.605+displacement, IIRC)+port (10x1.25x46something)...

Net volume was around .605 and it is tuned to 33Hz. VERY happy. 

It's in my Hyundai Genesis Build Thread somewhere.

Jay


----------



## corcraft

So is this .667 or .7 gross volume? or net after subtracting the .08 displacement? Also it has been said that you may need a larger port for more power to assure no port noise. What size round port would you use with 450w and what length?

Thanks....


----------



## erknjerk

I've got mine in a JL Stealthbox at .625 33hz. Don't know if thats before or after port. Sounds great.


----------



## Cruzer

winisd recommends .599 so .6-.7 should be perfect


----------



## PaRider380

I have a 2010 Chevy Crew cab and can't decide what to do with this sub. It sounds like everyone loves the HO ported but what about compared to 2 10's sealed? I was thinking 2 sealed in .65 each or running 1 in the above recomended ported enclosure which would go under the rear seat. I haven't purchased an amp yet and $ isn't really an issue so I could fully power these in a sealed enclosure. I'm looking for a high quality sound that still could get loud if I wanted it to. Any thoughts would help. I was going to look into maybe an audioque amp to power these.


----------



## Mark the Bold

These aren't designed for sealed per Chad. Way too much stress on the sub and amps. One ported is all you need for a truck interior. I have a Tacoma Access cab and this sub is plenty of bass. My Arc ks900.6 has about 400w @ 4 ohm on this sub and its more than enough. So go with one ported. And in the highly unlikely case that its not enough for you, you can add another one later......


----------



## Cruzer

The dayton hf 10s sealed will sound nice


----------



## chad

it's not a design thing per say, they will operate, it just works much better vented IMHO.


----------



## corcraft

Chad so .666666 is gross right? Before subtracting the displacement.

Output comparable to a type r?


----------



## chad

you could round up to .7 it's not critical.

The only thing I know about type R's is that I cannot get one in America since we have Acura, and nobody wants a civic whipping a RSX's ass 

Honestly, I don't know, I don't get into car audio products, especially in the speaker department.


----------



## Cruzer

corcraft said:


> Chad so .666666 is gross right? Before subtracting the displacement.
> 
> Output comparable to a type r?


depends on box size of the alpine. they recommend at least .8

if u use them in same size box, be it .7, .8, 1 cube, they are pretty comparable
less than 1 db difference across the board. the dayton is flat in [email protected] where the alpine is flat in like 1 [email protected]


----------



## jayr0c

Hey guys, 1st post here. Been having fun reading and learning from this website for a bit, and you guys have me looking at this sub as well. Ive been talking to the guys at parts express and what they recommended for me was .95-1 cu ft box, which I was a little surprised to see, since everyone here says .7. I asked for a sq oriented box, plays well up to 80hz, decent low end, and its going into the trunk of a civic.

What would be the difference between the 2 sizes?

Ps, out of all the car audio forums ive been checking out, this is my fav. Thumbs up to you guys for educating us newbies on this new found car audio addiction!


They also suggested a 1/2 lbs of polyfill


----------



## corcraft

I would use the .7 because it has been tried and tested with great results. The 1 cf is what most 10's like ported so that was probably an educated guess from the guys at parts express which isn't a wrong answer. The qstn is..... Has any1 here tried a larger ported box compared to this "miracle" box?


----------



## jayr0c

Has anybody ever done a slot port for this sub, feel free to share details if so? Is a slot port not prefered for any reason?


----------



## Cruzer

Without winisd at work 1 cube will give more low end but I'm guessing it might have more what's it called group delay?


----------



## jayr0c

How hard is it to squeeze the pvc into the .7 cu ft box? I havent read anywhere on this site of someone actually doing so. Im gonna be using approx. 350w rms so I dont know if there would be port noise with 2" pipe or not, would I need to go bigger? And if I put in there some polyfill will that compensate for the port displacement?


----------



## Mark the Bold

You can and I did. See post #202 of this thread for dimensions. I used plywood for the vent, but you can use pvc just as well.....


----------



## JayinMI

jayr0c said:


> Has anybody ever done a slot port for this sub, feel free to share details if so? Is a slot port not prefered for any reason?


I did.

Starts about halfway down Page 5, and goes on to page 7, IIRC. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-member-build-logs/58523-2010-hyundai-genesis-coupe-build-log-5.html

There were a few revisions to the design before my final build.

Jay


----------



## SynRG

I had the privilege of hearing this configuration in strakele's car this weekend at the Alabama GTG. Had to wait until the end of the day to hear this car because there was someone almost constantly in it, and I can understand why. His car puts the capital D in Dynamic. Makes-you-laugh-out-loud good. I have never heard a system recreate the experience of a live concert this well before. He played a Metallica cut that was of a live live concert, and the musicality and concussion of the bass was like standing onstage near the monitors. This system was musical and dynamic with everything he played. Hard to believe it was coming from two tens. When he opened the trunk and I saw how little trunk space was taken by the pair, especially for the sound quality, extension, and output, it was amazing. If you are reading this thread, and considering this option, based on what I heard in this car, go ahead and pull the trigger. You won't be disappointed. Especially considering the cost of this sub, it just has to be one of the best SQ bargains out there. And one of the best SQ values, irrespective of price.


----------



## Cruzer

SynRG said:


> I had the privilege of hearing this configuration in strakele's car this weekend at the Alabama GTG. Had to wait until the end of the day to hear this car because there was someone almost constantly in it, and I can understand why. His car puts the capital D in Dynamic. Makes-you-laugh-out-loud good. I have never heard a system recreate the experience of a live concert this well before. He played a Metallica cut that was of a live live concert, and the musicality and concussion of the bass was like standing onstage near the monitors. This system was musical and dynamic with everything he played. Hard to believe it was coming from two tens. When he opened the trunk and I saw how little trunk space was taken by the pair, especially for the sound quality, extension, and output, it was amazing. If you are reading this thread, and considering this option, based on what I heard in this car, go ahead and pull the trigger. You won't be disappointed. Especially considering the cost of this sub, it just has to be one of the best SQ bargains out there. And one of the best SQ values, irrespective of price.


x2

two 10s ported, 1500 watts u would think it would be overpowering, or boomy, but it wasnt!


----------



## strakele

Wow, thanks guys. I really appreciate the compliments. They are great subwoofers, especially for the price. And the fact that they work in such a small enclosure is a great bonus. I basically went by Chad's recommendation for my box.. .7 cubes each tuned to 29-30 Hz.


----------



## eggyhustles

Has anyone modeled the 15 in ported or sealed?


----------



## Cruzer

The ho 15 wants 1.8 sealed and winisd recommends 3.5 cubes @24hz but I played around and I think 2.5 cubes at 24 hz was 5db louder than sealed @30hz but it does have a roll off starting at 40hz with the 2.5

I got mine in 2.1 sealed. If I don't like it I plan to try the [email protected]


----------



## strakele

Cool, let me know how you like the 15!


----------



## Woods-Rider

I am going to be getting two of these HO 10s and wanted to know if I am better off running them at their full 600W RMS each for 1200W or if stepping down to like 250W each would be better for clarity?

I am leaning towards a sealed enclosure with each sub getting about .7 ft^3.


----------



## Bndrulez

Sealed box will require more power. So I'd get the full 600w per.


----------



## Woods-Rider

Thanks, just the answer I was looking for!

If I decide to switch to ported down the road would they still be able to handle the 600W each without problem?


----------



## Mark the Bold

I don't recommend going sealed. See last 9 pages of thread. These subs do need a lot of power vented too.....


----------



## Bndrulez

Mark the Bold said:


> I don't recommend going sealed. See last 9 pages of thread. These subs do need a lot of power vented too.....


^^^ This


----------



## Woods-Rider

Yeah, I'm still on the fence about ported or sealed. I am overseas on business and can't measure under the seats of my F150 to determine if I have enough room to go ported. I want to though so I may have to get creative with my ports.


----------



## Woods-Rider

Just bought a Memphis 16-2000D for both HO 10s. I will wire it up at 4 ohms for 1200W. This way if i ever upgrade and want a bit more power I can get a 2 ohm configuration and get 2000W. Now to order the subs through parts express (know a guy who can get wholesale price from them) and get home to start building the enclosure!


----------



## chad

Mark the Bold said:


> I don't recommend going sealed. See last 9 pages of thread. These subs do need a lot of power vented too.....


I'm only giving mine 250W


----------



## Woods-Rider

chad said:


> I'm only giving mine 250W


Each or total? What amp? How do they sound to other HOs, if you have heard any others?


----------



## chad

Woods-Rider said:


> Each or total? What amp? How do they sound to other HOs, if you have heard any others?


I only have one.... I've modeled the others, the 10 seems to be the biggest bang for the size and price in the lineup.

Amp is JL 500/5

Also remember that the sub is closer to 6 ohms throughout the passband you will be using it in.


----------



## Bndrulez

He's giving his 250w and it's ported.

The Dayton is a single 4 ohm, so if you have 2 of them they can be wired to 2 ohms collectively or 8 ohms collectively. That amp puts out 2000w at 2 ohms so you'll want to take it easy on the gain.


----------



## Mark the Bold

chad said:


> I'm only giving mine 250W


Welll your amp must be a lot more efficient than mine. My amp is 400w @ 4 ohm and its nowhere near maxing the sub out..... Kudos to JL


----------



## chad

Who said I was maxing it out? It's not a race man.


----------



## Mark the Bold

Chill out. Your amp is more efficient than mine that's all I said. Heard good things about JL slash amps but never have installed one.

Several non-racing people over at tech-talk/parts-express recommended a minimum of 300-400w for this sub to me. I was passing the world along. 

Woods-Rider: Go with what Chad recommended. 

Watts are cheap so whats the harm in upping it by 150-250w anyway?


----------



## Woods-Rider

Bndrulez said:


> He's giving his 250w and it's ported.
> 
> The Dayton is a single 4 ohm, so if you have 2 of them they can be wired to 2 ohms collectively or 8 ohms collectively. That amp puts out 2000w at 2 ohms so you'll want to take it easy on the gain.


I'll wire them up at 8 ohms where the amp puts out 1200W which is perfect since these subs have an RMS of 600W each.


----------



## chad

Mark the Bold said:


> Chill out. Your amp is more efficient than mine that's all I said. Heard good things about JL slash amps but never have installed one.
> 
> Several non-racing people over at tech-talk/parts-express recommended a minimum of 300-400w for this sub to me. I was passing the world along.
> 
> Woods-Rider: Go with what Chad recommended.
> 
> Watts are cheap so whats the harm in upping it by 150-250w anyway?


I'm chill, I should have used a smiley 

When it was sealed, and I may have posted this here if not.... I wanted to see how it took power so I put it on a REAL 1KW+ amp and let it fly in the studio. although the performance was lackluster in the home compared to what it was taking the place of,it made no foul noises and lived to tell about it. I don't think I have the balls to try that in a vented arrangement with that kind of abuse. I'd bet I run out of Xmech. I WAS running it with a Next amplifier that was just a touch more powerful, and when sealed, which I may have also posted (been a long time) that sucker actually ran warm (the driver) at moderate to frisky levels. when a dust dome starts to heat like that (yes I know it's metal) I start to really wonder about power compression.

Another thing to consider that I get by with one and little power because I drive what some would classify as a barbie car that is also a hatchback... It does not take much to get the air moving inside.


----------



## 06attaker

Considering all the positive feedback for the ported enclosures, I already have a sealed enclosure for two tens under the rear seat of an F150. Looking at the Pdx-M6 for 600 RMS for both subs. What are the minuses of this setup? I know that it won't be as powerful, but I don't need to rattle the windows of the car next to me either. I have had a single 10 in a JL Audio stealthbox in the center console of an old F150 and was pleased with that but at times was just not enough for me. Would this be a good step up from that?


----------



## chad

06attaker said:


> Considering all the positive feedback for the ported enclosures, I already have a sealed enclosure for two tens under the rear seat of an F150. Looking at the Pdx-M6 for 600 RMS for both subs. What are the minuses of this setup? I know that it won't be as powerful, but I don't need to rattle the windows of the car next to me either. I have had a single 10 in a JL Audio stealthbox in the center console of an old F150 and was pleased with that but at times was just not enough for me. Would this be a good step up from that?


What's the internal volume of the enclosure?


----------



## jayr0c

A minus most likely would be losing out on lower frequencies


----------



## chad

which is kinda the point of a subwoofer to begin with eh?


----------



## jayr0c

yup.


----------



## gu9cci

is the Dayton better sounding (SQ) then JL 10 W3?


----------



## chad

kind of an odd thing to ask in this thread. That being said I would say yes, especially considering space requirements...

LinearTeam


----------



## Mark the Bold

chad said:


> I'm chill, I should have used a smiley
> 
> When it was sealed, and I may have posted this here if not.... I wanted to see how it took power so I put it on a REAL 1KW+ amp and let it fly in the studio. although the performance was lackluster in the home compared to what it was taking the place of,it made no foul noises and lived to tell about it. I don't think I have the balls to try that in a vented arrangement with that kind of abuse. I'd bet I run out of Xmech. I WAS running it with a Next amplifier that was just a touch more powerful, and when sealed, which I may have also posted (been a long time) that sucker actually ran warm (the driver) at moderate to frisky levels. when a dust dome starts to heat like that (yes I know it's metal) I start to really wonder about power compression.
> 
> Another thing to consider that I get by with one and little power because I drive what some would classify as a barbie car that is also a hatchback... It does not take much to get the air moving inside.


Sorry to get touchy. I really can't thank you enough for your review / build log of this sub. Its what convinced me to put it in my truck in a small ported box. I've had 6 subs in 4 vehicles over my years (MB Quart Premium 10", Ed13v2, JLw3v2, Rockford Punch 12" (don't laugh), Tang Band w8-740p) and this sub is far and away superior in all subjective listening tests to me. It really made my system complete and convinced me to use Dayton throughout. I'm so addicted, I'm now thinking of building home theater speakers and subs now. I can see how this Diyma consumes lives......


----------



## 06attaker

chad said:


> What's the internal volume of the enclosure?


0.8 cu ft. per speaker


----------



## jayr0c

How high do you guys cross your daytons at?


----------



## Bndrulez

I like to take mine up to 100hz 24db slope.


----------



## chad

Mark the Bold said:


> Sorry to get touchy. I really can't thank you enough for your review / build log of this sub. Its what convinced me to put it in my truck in a small ported box. I've had 6 subs in 4 vehicles over my years (MB Quart Premium 10", Ed13v2, JLw3v2, Rockford Punch 12" (don't laugh), Tang Band w8-740p) and this sub is far and away superior in all subjective listening tests to me. It really made my system complete and convinced me to use Dayton throughout. I'm so addicted, I'm now thinking of building home theater speakers and subs now. I can see how this Diyma consumes lives......


I have a set of RS100 mids and another set of XT25 tweets, I'm really thinking about doing a home compact 3 way with the 10HO vented, the RS100 and the XT25, I think I can get a lot of sound out of quite a small package if I try hard enough.



06attaker said:


> 0.8 cu ft. per speaker


Plenty to open possibilities!



Bndrulez said:


> I like to take mine up to 100hz 24db slope.


Same here, either 80 or 100, if I do 100 I use a steeper slope, shallower at 80.


----------



## Woods-Rider

Here's my model of the box I am thinking of building for under the rear seats of my F150. It has a mounting depth of 5.87" and a volume of .752 ft^3 per sub (before ports). I was planning on building the ports out of MDF, but am thinking of buying tube ports since they take up less room and I am on the verge of not having enough room after pot volume is subtracted. I am having trouble finding 90* port bends (if they even exist). If someone knows where to find them please let me know. I know I can use PVC, but that is thicker than the port material and doesn't have that nice flared piece for the end. I may be able to mate a flared piece to some PVC to get the bends, but I haven't looked into that yet. 

I need some help with modeling the ports in this enclosure to know how long and what area they should have. I have read they like ~6" area by around 26" long. That seems like a damn long port to me and I am concerned about port noise with such a small port area. 

Questions, comments and suggestions are appreciated.


----------



## rp_guy

does anyone have comments on using a larger box, specifically 1.0cF 30Hz? there is a design from eD that can be easily used


edesignaudio.com/logos/ 10_Single_Vented.JPG (remove the space)


since no one has released a simple 0.7cF 30Hz slotted port box.. i may just use their design


----------



## chad

build one.


----------



## rp_guy

chad said:


> build one.



U mean the 1.0cF or 0.7cF with slot port? I put all the parameters into winisd and it gave me a port length of 37". I can only modify existing designs.. I don't know how to make a design from scratch which is why i'm asking if anyone has done it already.. this would be the first one i've attempted to design and I still don't know how to calculate cF while accounting for the port cF


----------



## derekbannatyne

I noticed the same thing with build quality - was pleasantly surprised when I received my 12" HF in the mail today.


----------



## Woods-Rider

Have any of you guys used this program/spreadsheet to design an enclosure for your Dayton(s)? I am playing around with it to try and figure out a port size and length and its pretty helpful and has a ton of inputs.

Loudspeaker Design Software

Note: to save any info you put into the spreadsheet you need to hit the "save woofer data to file" button instead of saving the spreadsheet as a whole.


----------



## BigRed

do you have it on windows 7? it seems to have issues


----------



## Woods-Rider

No, I have XP.


----------



## rp_guy

0.72cF (10"x11.5"x11" + 2"x5.25"x11")
30Hz
port length 55.5" (1x11-5/8", 3x10-1/4", 4x2",1x5-1/8")


21.5"x12.5"x13"


----------



## chad

BigRed said:


> do you have it on windows 7? it seems to have issues


Worked for me.



rp_guy said:


> http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb70/rp_guy/RSS265HObox.png
> 
> 0.72cF (10"x11.5"x11" + 2"x5.25"x11")
> 30Hz
> port length 55.5" (1x11-5/8", 3x10-1/4", 4x2",1x5-1/8")
> 
> 
> 21.5"x12.5"x13"


time for the saw

And some Randy Poon


----------



## rp_guy

i was playing with winisd because my volume was changing and i forgot to take that into account.

i know you recommend 0.6666667 gross, but doesn't this graph mean that the larger volume produces a flatter curve? (0.75cf net vs 0.60cF net)


----------



## chad

it's fine, rock it.


----------



## rp_guy

chad said:


> it's fine, rock it.


thanks.. still new to this stuff so i wasn't sure what was good or not. i'll be going with my original then... and yes my name is Randy Poon 



funny story.. i play NHL 11 online and EAsports doesn't allow vulgar words for your player name.. i tried putting in my real name and both "words" were vulgar and censored out


----------



## Woods-Rider

rp_guy said:


> i was playing with winisd because my volume was changing and i forgot to take that into account.
> 
> i know you recommend 0.6666667 gross, but doesn't this graph mean that the larger volume produces a flatter curve? (0.75cf net vs 0.60cF net)


Do both those enclosures have the same vent (area and length)?


----------



## avnut

derekbannatyne said:


> I noticed the same thing with build quality - was pleasantly surprised when I received my 12" HF in the mail today.


You'll love it if SQ is primary goal. Have mine in a Tacoma extended cab (2.5 cuft box tuned to 26hz). I forget I have a sub 2 ft. behind my head most of the time. Give it some break-in time though, I had to rasie the crossover point twice in the two months I've had it.


----------



## JayinMI

Woods-Rider said:


> Do both those enclosures have the same vent (area and length)?


They shouldn't be.

Yes, the larger enclosure should be flatter.

I built my box to something like .685 (gross), with a port that was tuned to 33Hz, (IIRC, 10*1.25*46.25")...I'd have to check my build thread for exact specs.

I love it.

Jay


----------



## eggyhustles

would 1.5 tuned to 30hz work for 2 10's?


----------



## chad

yup!


----------



## XtremeRevolution

chad said:


> yup!





eggyhustles said:


> would 1.5 tuned to 30hz work for 2 10's?


NOPE!

Try again. Two Dayton HO 10's take 600W each, for a total of 1200W RMS. At 1200W, you exceed xmax by a HUGE margin. If you built this box and gave those subs even 900W, you'd be coming back asking why they're bottoming out on you. 

Why do so many people fail to realize the importance of excursion control in sub boxes? You'll reduce power handling severely by making the box that large. Not only will this box sound like complete crap, but it will also start distorting at over 700W total and damage the subs at over ~800W total.

With cabin gain factored in, this sub would be a one note wonder with a +13db peak at 30hz.


----------



## chad

XtremeRevolution said:


> NOPE!
> 
> Try again. Two Dayton HO 10's take 600W each, for a total of 1200W RMS.


NOPE!

Try them in a box that controls excursion and tell me how long they last electrically.....

In other words, in terms of longevity, I think Dayton may have exaggerated that number a bit 

As for the 13dB peak, does not show up in WinISD or the testing I have performed on them acoustically.


----------



## XtremeRevolution

chad said:


> NOPE!
> 
> Try them in a box that controls excursion and tell me how long they last electrically.....
> 
> In other words, in terms of longevity, I think Dayton may have exaggerated that number a bit
> 
> As for the 13dB peak, does not show up in WinISD or the testing I have performed on them acoustically.


That's because I modeled cabin gain as well to prove how terrible it would sound. Nice try. WinISD doesn't even allow you to import a frequency response plot for cabin gain or boundary loading. Want me to model boundary loading too? That peak will be even higher if I do. You really should ask yourself what software I used before you shoot me down. WinISD (at least the basic edition) is a child's toy compared to what I'm using. If you are using the pro edition, you would have seen the excursion problems. 

What's your modeled excursion?

They are rated to thermally handle 600W. Seriously, 1.5 cubic feet will barely allow them to handle half that. Not sure if you're ready to go around telling everyone to give their subs only half the power they're rated for. Electrically, the Dayton HO has the capability of sustaining 600W RMS not peak. If you have proof to demonstrate otherwise, by all means lets have it. Until you do, don't start claiming otherwise just to defend yourself. You can't simply shoot down my analysis because you have a hunch. 

Xmax is xmax, and anything that exceeds xmax is the point at which the moving coils are out of the range of the magnetic field and thus increase distortion at an alarming rate. It doesn't matter to us what the sub can do once xmax is exceeded because quite frankly we shouldn't be exceeding xmax if we expect to maintain a reasonable sound quality at higher volumes. Hell, xmax is exceeded at 900W, which is 3/4 what these subs are rated for. How far are you willing to take this argument?

Admit that your advice was incorrect and move on unless you have proof to back up your claims. I'm trusting what the manufacturer's spec sheet says. Don't tell me otherwise unless you have some proof. I modeled it correctly, and 1.5 cubic feet is too large for two Dayton HO 10's, and the frequency response plot with cabin gain considered looks terrible.


----------



## chad

I seriously don't recall EVER mentioning excursion capabilities ANYWHERE in this thread.... Do you recall me mentioning it?

I DID however mention myself not trusting the ability of a single one of these drivers to handle 600 real world watts for any great length of time. We are going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

So in reality you are just standing there beating a stick on the ground attempting to get me all riled up, it's not happening.

But thank you for modeling it in car, I'm sure it will come in handy for someone in the future.


----------



## XtremeRevolution

chad said:


> I seriously don't recall EVER mentioning excursion capabilities ANYWHERE in this thread.... Do you recall me mentioning it?
> 
> I DID however mention myself not trusting the ability of a single one of these drivers to handle 600 real world watts for any great length of time. We are going to have to agree to disagree on that one.
> 
> So in reality you are just standing there beating a stick on the ground attempting to get me all riled up, it's not happening.
> 
> But thank you for modeling it in car, I'm sure it will come in handy for someone in the future.


See below:



eggyhustles said:


> would 1.5 tuned to 30hz work for 2 10's?





chad said:


> yup!


You said it would work. I'm saying it won't due to excursion. We both know that a lot of bass notes come in peaks, and are not sustained for a very long length of time. Regardless of your baseless doubts (and they are just that since I haven't seen any proof that they *can't* handle 600W even though the manufacturer says they can), the rating is 600W, and you said 1.5 cubes tuned to 30hz would work. I proved that it wouldn't because excursion would be exceeded much too easily. In fact, 600W is the maximum you could give these without exceeding xmax. 

I know you didn't mention excursion (even though its a pretty big deal), so I did in order to make sure this guy doesn't go out with a 1200W amp and a beefed up electrical system, build a 1.5 cube box, and destroy his subs because of your bad advice. Quite frankly, for someone who talks as if they know so much, I'm almost shocked you *didn't* mention excursion. I'm quite confident that at minimum, these subs will take occasional peaks of 600W (each), which is exactly when you risk reaching xlim.

You're welcome by the way. I modeled it in a car because, well, this is diy*mobile*audio. I'm sure its not going to do anyone any good (aside from preventing them from building a box to these specs) because its a horribly peaky response and its a one way ticket to distortion and permanent coil damage.

Case in point: you advised that 1.5 cubes is fine for two Dayton HO 10's. I proved its not. End of story.


----------



## chad

Fair enough.

If I had the money to burn I'd do the thermal testing to failure in an enclosure that you either built or designed.... I don't ahve the cash to burn at the moment, likely never will liven in this state that sucks our pockets dry. My theory behind the 600W rating and my doubts stem from working daily with drivers that CAN handle said power for hours on end without failure and noting the amount of heat, and sometimes smell the Dayton can generate with considerably less than 600W. #edit# I missed your occasional comment, my bad....

Incidentally I end up EQing some of that hump out. at least in my application it's predictable and it can be taken care of with even a simple filter in the alpine headunit (not going uber fancy with DSP, got other things that need that money more) 

I believe that not unlike horns, a bit of tactical cutting to gain efficiency is not a bad way, that being said I'm well aware that there are two different schools of thought on that topic and probably not one to get into in this thread.


----------



## XtremeRevolution

chad said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> If I had the money to burn I'd do the thermal testing to failure in an enclosure that you either built or designed.... I don't ahve the cash to burn at the moment, likely never will liven in this state that sucks our pockets dry. My theory behind the 600W rating and my doubts stem from working daily with drivers that CAN handle said power for hours on end without failure and noting the amount of heat, and sometimes smell the Dayton can generate with considerably less than 600W.
> 
> Incidentally I end up EQing some of that hump out. at least in my application it's predictable and it can be taken care of with even a simple filter in the alpine headunit (not going uber fancy with DSP, got other things that need that money more)
> 
> I believe that not unlike horns, a bit of tactical cutting to gain efficiency is not a bad way, that being said I'm well aware that there are two different schools of thought on that topic and probably not one to get into in this thread.


Thanks. I didn't want to get into a pissing match, so appreciate you not doing so. 

Off topic, but try moving to California and see how fast your pockets get sucked dry. I moved here from there and I can't say I'd rather live anywhere else. 

As for thermal power handling, I wouldn't normally have said much, but when you exceed xmax with so much as half the power that the sub is supposedly rated for, you know your box is too big. Lets say rhetorically speaking that they can't take 600W each. Do you think they could take 450W? 400? 

If you are interested, I would love to show you the software I'm using, since its nothing more than well designed excel spreadsheets with macros. I discovered in another thread just today that the modeling this software does for boundary loading and room pressurization gain (essentailly cabin gain) is very accurate, and you can indeed accurately model the frequency response of a subwoofer in a car.

Here's a chart that JBL put together to record the difference between measured frequency response and cabin gain:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/448657-post9.html

My simulated frequency response is attached. Those are awefully close, and you can specify dimensions that get you a more accurate .frd to apply to the modeled frequency response.


----------



## chad

I would love to see the software.

I'm caught in the middle of the state employee healthcare debacle right now and getting screwed, along with a recent income tax hike. Makes salty bastards like me bitter  I' don't mind living here, it's cheap, property wise, and I live far enough south that I can have a decent amount of land to play on but yet still be around 20 minutes from civilization.

I have a spreadsheet I need to locate, it's pretty neat also, has tons of calculators in it. I'll try to dig it up. You will recognize the team that put it together...

As for cabin gain.. I attempt more of an inverted Linkwitz transform. I find that it keeps power compression down and causes less stress on Tiny Dancer's electrical system


----------



## XtremeRevolution

chad said:


> I would love to see the software.
> 
> I'm caught in the middle of the state employee healthcare debacle right now and getting screwed, along with a recent income tax hike. Makes salty bastards like me bitter  I' don't mind living here, it's cheap, property wise, and I live far enough south that I can have a decent amount of land to play on but yet still be around 20 minutes from civilization.
> 
> I have a spreadsheet I need to locate, it's pretty neat also, has tons of calculators in it. I'll try to dig it up. You will recognize the team that put it together...
> 
> As for cabin gain.. I attempt more of an inverted Linkwitz transform. I find that it keeps power compression down and causes less stress on Tiny Dancer's electrical system


Nice. I'm on the north side. If anything, we get screwed more around here. 

Here's the software. 

jbagby

use the baffle diffraction and boundary modeling spreadsheet to simulate the boundary loading and room pressurization. Those will automatically show up individually and in a combined graph. Export the .frd of that graph. I measure the length from the end of the trunk to the firewall of the car. Typically this is 10-12 feet, though some hatchbacks will bring in 8-9 feet, which you'll notice makes a huge difference. The boundary loading will be more complicated, but it will get you a rough idea. 

Once you export the .frd file, use the woofer box and circuit designer to model the box. Let me know if you have any trouble. As an added bonus, you can also model high and low pass crossover points. This is extremely useful for determining a given high pass point for a ported box. If you're running passive, figure out the slope, then select the corresponding circuit. I use butterworth circuits since they're simpler, but you can experiment. 1st order is a 6 db/octave, 2nd order is 12db, 3rd order is 24db, and so on... Applying this will help you determine your excursion control with the filters applied, and give you a real representation of your frequency response. 

Import the .frd you created earlier using the room or baffle response import button, and start playing with configurations. 

Neat little thing is, you can save each individual chart easily as a .gif file for uploading to the forums when helping people model a particular sub. Being able to simulatenously model high and low pass filters, cabin gain and boundary loading, and the raw SPL of one or multiple drivers at the same time and on the same graph is pretty badass. Makes WinISD look like a caveman's club.


----------



## chad

Right on.. I'll look for my sheet tonight.. it's on a drive spinning somewhere. I had it on my live sound laptop but I don't think it's still there.


----------



## eggyhustles

Hmm

so what's the magic box size for the 2 10's? They were gonna get around 300w each, btw

If they work with less power, even better!


----------



## XtremeRevolution

eggyhustles said:


> Hmm
> 
> so what's the magic box size for the 2 10's? They were gonna get around 300w each, btw
> 
> If they work with less power, even better!


300W each and 1.5 cubes for the two would be fine. However, that's only half the power they are rated for. If you had only 600W to work with, why not get the Dayton HF 10's instead? 

Dayton Audio RSS265HF-4 10" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm

Basically the same sub, but with a lighter cone that allows for quicker transients. Lower moving mass means they'll sound quicker, tighter, and more articulate. Plus they're rated for 350W each, so giving two of them 600W should be just fine.


----------



## eggyhustles

hf needs a bigger box, no?


----------



## tyroneshoes

.707 Sealed for the hf 10" is 1 cuft.

Going to .85 cuft it becomes .757 

Still totally acceptable. 

Ported the hf 10" needs 1.5 cuft tuned to 28/30 hz.


----------



## XtremeRevolution

tyroneshoes said:


> .707 Sealed for the hf 10" is 1 cuft.
> 
> Going to .85 cuft it becomes .757
> 
> Still totally acceptable.
> 
> Ported the hf 10" needs 1.5 cuft tuned to 28/30 hz.


You have any excursion charts for those box alignments?

Sent from my HTC Awesome using Tapatalk


----------



## tyroneshoes

XtremeRevolution said:


> You have any excursion charts for those box alignments?
> 
> Sent from my HTC Awesome using Tapatalk


No, I just modeled it in winisd and have been listening for 3 years to a hf 10" in 1.7 tuned to 26 in my ht.

Also just popped one of the HF in PE goldwood boxes (.85) for a budget install for friend and sounds great and gets down to 20 hz.


----------



## t3sn4f2

XtremeRevolution said:


> 300W each and 1.5 cubes for the two would be fine. However, that's only half the power they are rated for. If you had only 600W to work with, why not get the Dayton HF 10's instead?
> 
> Dayton Audio RSS265HF-4 10" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm
> 
> *Basically the same sub, but with a lighter cone that allows for quicker transients. Lower moving mass means they'll sound quicker, tighter, and more articulate.* Plus they're rated for 350W each, so giving two of them 600W should be just fine.


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-truth-myths-industry-dogma/87371-fast-bass-slow-bass-myth-vs-fact.html


----------



## XtremeRevolution

tyroneshoes said:


> No, I just modeled it in winisd and have been listening for 3 years to a hf 10" in 1.7 tuned to 26 in my ht.
> 
> Also just popped one of the HF in PE goldwood boxes (.85) for a budget install for friend and sounds great and gets down to 20 hz.


How much power are you giving that sub?



t3sn4f2 said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-truth-myths-industry-dogma/87371-fast-bass-slow-bass-myth-vs-fact.html


I've read through that entire thread before and it doesn't change my statement. 

What does is that I've since had time to model them both and discovered that the HO 10 works better in a sealed box than the HF 10, so I retract my previous recommendation. 

tyroneshoes, that qtc is no indication of the sub's excursion. While most people won't use those high power handlings, the excursion was so far off the charts that I didn't think it was a good idea at all. Obviously some people will disagree and I respect that.


----------



## tnbubba

oops dammit I will take exception to the fact that me MMS of a speaker does not contribute to the speed of the woofer.. Adire correctly assumes some things but forgets newtons law about inertia and the fact that oops once you reverse the current in a voice coil its still moving in one direction and it generates an opposing current and voltage.!!
damn there goes some of his argument.. yes Mass DOES MATTER.. don forget NEWTONS FIRST LAW> that in motion will tend to stay in motion until a force acts upon it. when the current /voltage changes the inertia resists that motion and generates its own current.. called back EMF> 10 yrs of testing speakers at panasonic.. same VC and magenet all we do is change cone mass and 99.9% of time the "faster" or more accurate speaker is identified as the one with the lighter mass and yes the spl change was accounted for. 
want a good sub?? flat BL curve.. Low MM. low excurions!!! damn.. 
just the opposite of what u get in SPL sub! oh I guess we need to study JBL PRO series subs.. they seem to be well respected.!


----------



## XtremeRevolution

The above is the reason why Image Dynamics' old IDQV2 subs sound so amazing. They had a lower (comparatively) excursion, a very light cone, and were very sensitive. They sounded better than most subs I've heard. I can tell a difference in sound quality between my two IDQ10V2's and my single IDMax 10. The IDQ's simply sound tighter and more accurate. They respond to transients and peaks much more quickly, and both are in properly designed sealed boxes. The difference is slight, but its there nonetheless. 

The reason I retracted my statement about the HF 10 was because it requires an even larger box than the HO 10, making it less suitable for automotive use when ported.


----------



## tnbubba

yea **** anytime you put an inductor in series with another inductor you really screw things up..
rewind the VC to double the inductance and adjust the field strength so you have the same BL and you wont hear much difference except for the mass that you added to the VC.. yes the higher inductance does slow down the current change but not that much.
JBL did this eons ago.. I need to find the white paper.. but yea the lighter the cone the
faster the transients..I think Polk had some laser measurements published at one time showing the transient response.. now to find me 2 good 8" subs to replace my one 10..


----------



## jedc

Can anyone help me out with a quick box calculation? I'm looking to grab a pre-fab 10" sealed box and modify it with an aero-port from Parts-Express. I'm want it tuned down to 32-33hz. If someone can run this through Winisd or another program I would greatly appreciate it as I'm at work right now. I have found various 10" boxes online that I will pick from once I know how much airspace I need to have taking into account the driver and port tube displacement.

I forgot to say that I will be powering it with a Clarion dpx-2251, rated at 600 wrms @ 4 ohm, proper gain set of course.

Thanks


----------



## XtremeRevolution

jedc said:


> Can anyone help me out with a quick box calculation? I'm looking to grab a pre-fab 10" sealed box and modify it with an aero-port from Parts-Express. I'm want it tuned down to 32-33hz. If someone can run this through Winisd or another program I would greatly appreciate it as I'm at work right now. I have found various 10" boxes online that I will pick from once I know how much airspace I need to have taking into account the driver and port tube displacement.
> 
> I forgot to say that I will be powering it with a Clarion dpx-2251, rated at 600 wrms @ 4 ohm, proper gain set of course.
> 
> Thanks


What's the volume of this pre-fabbed box?

I can get this modeled for you, but please send me a PM so I don't forget. I've got a lot of people asking me to model subs for them.


----------



## tyroneshoes

XtremeRevolution said:


> How much power are you giving that sub?
> 
> 
> 
> I've read through that entire thread before and it doesn't change my statement.
> 
> What does is that I've since had time to model them both and discovered that the HO 10 works better in a sealed box than the HF 10, so I retract my previous recommendation.
> 
> tyroneshoes, that qtc is no indication of the sub's excursion. While most people won't use those high power handlings, the excursion was so far off the charts that I didn't think it was a good idea at all. Obviously some people will disagree and I respect that.


The HF 10" in my Ported home theatre is powered using a 240 watt dayton sub amp in 1.7 tuned to about 26hz. 

In the system I did for my friend, we put the HF 10" in a .85 sealed box stuffed and powered by a zapco studio 150 so it gets about 300 watts. According to my rta, its goes down to 20 hz nicely but you can actually feel the cone becoming warm after a long drive. I believe it is stressing the driver's mechanical ability but 2 years no issues.


----------



## XtremeRevolution

tyroneshoes said:


> The HF 10" in my Ported home theatre is powered using a 240 watt dayton sub amp in 1.7 tuned to about 26hz.
> 
> In the system I did for my friend, we put the HF 10" in a .85 sealed box stuffed and powered by a zapco studio 150 so it gets about 300 watts. According to my rta, its goes down to 20 hz nicely but you can actually feel the cone becoming warm after a long drive. I believe it is stressing the driver's mechanical ability but 2 years no issues.


Well, I would expect the cone to become warm. It is designed to do that. My IDMax cone becomes very warm to the touch after some hard use, but its designed as a very well vented heatsink to take that 1000W thermal it is rated for. 

The coils are nothing more than resistors that turn energy into heat. A little warm is not at all a problem. I call that breaking in a sub.


----------



## Mike Hall

I am working on a little design for behind the rear seat of a 1997 Crew cab F350. I was hoping to get two RSS265 HO subs in a ported enclosure but it seems I am going have to find a touch more cubs before I can make it happen. Right now I am sitting at .6 cuft per sub with 4x4.5" port 30" long for tuning of between 33/34 hz. I can add more cubes but i sure would like to keep the enclosure compact so as to have room for mounting these huge diamond audio amps on the front of the enclosure.


----------



## Babs

Mike Hall said:


> I am working on a little design for behind the rear seat of a 1997 Crew cab F350. I was hoping to get two RSS265 HO subs in a ported enclosure but it seems I am going have to find a touch more cubs before I can make it happen. Right now I am sitting at .6 cuft per sub with 4x4.5" port 30" long for tuning of between 33/34 hz. I can add more cubes but i sure would like to keep the enclosure compact so as to have room for mounting these huge diamond audio amps on the front of the enclosure.


Man that's pretty cool. I like how you did the port. Yeah I really hope to do something cool like this for a single HO 10 in my Tacoma. I'm told venting the RSS265 4ohm really makes a difference. That's my hopes. I ran it sealed for a while before swapping and wasn't terribly impressed, though it did have great SQ.. Then again, I should keep in mind the brief period I ran it, I was completely ignorant to phase tuning so I should re-test. Running an SD-3 10 beast now sealed in about .85cf which has awesome output and great SQ but I should play with the dayton in there again and do some tuning now I've acquired some skills.


----------

