# Some horn questions.



## Jscoyne2

So i've been reading up on horn placement and there seems to be an actual bit of aiming for horns. It's not always about getting them as deep and wide as possible, but more of making sure the PLD between the driver side and the passenger side is the same to opposite ears of the person driving. And something along the lines of aiming the line between the middle of the throat and some point on the horns to aim at the opposite side of the car. 

1:15 on this video explaining it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdEX...8DB575&index=3

I've never really understood the whole point of PLD in regards to ITD and IID in a biased side eq and reflection arena like a car. Even with exact PLD of the voice coil, you are still going to have massively different reflections for the frequencies those drivers are playing and i am sure the different arrival times of those Different reflections per side, are going to severely screw with your brains ability to figure out wtf its hearing. That and those different reflections are going to cause huge eq differences so you'll have to eq one side to sound better anyway which means the whole two seat idea will be defeated in the first place as one will always be far superior.

Maybe i am just arguing the pointlessness of a 2 seat system without upmixing and a center channel...meh. Lets not go there.


I am also confused on the whole 3 way front stage + sub, in a horn system. If your midbass are in kicks and mid-range in doors and horns against the firewall. The midbass and horns are aligned distance wise pretty closely but any info the door mid plays is going to severely screw with the stage. There is also the issue of different dispersion patterns of cones and horns, even under beaming. 

A 3 way is to keep that IMD(??) or excursion related distortion out of the lower mid-range but it seems to be at a trade off of introducing a lot more issues that having another driver would add.

The ES horns are designed to throw energy at the opposite side of the car by having the long side of the horn follow the contours of a typical dash but the installs i see where the end of mouth is flush with the firewall(motor in engine compartment), or even just way deeper than would be vertically-ish flush with the dash. They all seem to kinda defeat the purpose of the design of that horn. The energy isn't following the lines of the dash anymore. They are just playing under the dash and having who knows what reflections. The long side of the horn is playing directly into the dash and not using the dash as a guide at all.

So my questions are. 

How much aiming should actually be done with a horn? Is it just a matter of burying it as deep as possible and say **** all to dash contours, or is it better to have the motor not as deep but really use the design of the car and horn in unison to make smooth transitions?

In a horn install. Is it really better to have a 3 way plus sub, vs a 2 way+ sub?

A 2 way system would have a large format midbass that plays to 1200hz, with a hlcd playing up from there. Both drivers are pretty damn close to each other's path length. You deal with the added distortion of IMD(i hope im using that correctly) but you gain a more cohesive wavefront, but perhaps lose in the realm of beaming. It also justifies the price of say ES $700 car focused horns. 

If you add a 3rd driver per side. You can either put the midbass or the mid in kicks. I'd assume that the midbass in doors and mid in kicks would be the better option, but then your install gets far more complicated because you now have to build an enclosure big enough for a large format midbass driver...because absolutely F%$# doors as enclosures. 

The stage should be pretty good because both hlcd and mids drivers are pretty deep but you now have 2 cones drivers, and 1 HLCD, per side. Beaming is far better accounted for and everything will be playing below beaming, giving you a better stage and far far less location ques. The downside being that the whole thing seems like a huge amount of money for whats essentially a tweeter that plays down to 1200hz and Its REALLY hard for me to do so much install and shell out any decent amount of money for a mid that only plays say 150hz-1200hz.


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## oabeieo

Too long to answer all this 

But for most of (90%) of the frequencies horns play 
Level is dominant, so if most the sound is pushed to the other side than that makes a more equal level on both sides for all frequencies, and the level differences between left and right is by majority direct sound and not reflected sound by the shape of the horn 

If the left horn puts the majority of its sound go to the right, than your right ear will pick up as much or more of the left horn 
Than the right horn plays most of its goes to the left , so again your right ear picks up more of the sound , so what happens in frequencies where level is dominate and the majority of left and right info is in the center of car? A center image is forced! And the mirror of that happens on the other seat. 

If you play the horns down below 1.2khz it becomes critical on its placement to the dash and it’s aiming 

Having them parallel with the floor and each other is a excellent place to start and in most instances will be ideal as that’s how there designed. However there’s a caveat, the freaky ness of a car and it’s unpredictability of how acoustically it handles and behaves makes a no set rule to aiming. Some minor (and I mean minor) tweaks may need to be made in angleing to get them to work together as a pair.

You just have to get on board and buy a set. You’ll never go back to tweeters again


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## Elgrosso

Yeah you're really into it! Man you'll finish deaf with these if you don't pay attention 
I saw you moved up a lot of good thread recently, this one was not bad about dispersion patterns: https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/382938-matching-polar-response-crossover-frequency.html
But the entire HLCD forum is a bible, lot of good stuff there and you should find almost all answers.

I get your comments about mids in door & kicks in footwell, sure it’s not ideal but still a good compromise especially if you want width.
Also depends of the cabin shape, kicks could be very deep almost firewall or right near the door, so appearing «*wider*».

What kind of car is it, can you fit full bodies?
2w is definilty great, but needs a sub playing highers.
Aiming will also affect tunnel reflections, can be a problem depending of its shape and material.

btw you want a 2 seats tune? (never bothered that so can;t help)
But don't overthink all this at first, try them.
Honestly it's really hard to get an idea of the dispersion pattern of the entire thing. And even with an unoptimized setup like my first time, it was so much fun, impact/dynamic, low distortion, better ratio direct/reflected sound.
And it's so easy to mount/modify and test, I can remove them in 2 min now when I lend my car.

I think I still have some drivers around if you want to test, can lend you some full body if you want. I might even have more horns, need time to check.


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## Jscoyne2

Elgrosso said:


> Yeah you're really into it! Man you'll finish deaf with these if you don't pay attention
> I saw you moved up a lot of good thread recently, this one was not bad about dispersion patterns: https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/382938-matching-polar-response-crossover-frequency.html
> But the entire HLCD forum is a bible, lot of good stuff there and you should find almost all answers.
> 
> I get your comments about mids in door & kicks in footwell, sure it’s not ideal but still a good compromise especially if you want width.
> Also depends of the cabin shape, kicks could be very deep almost firewall or right near the door, so appearing «*wider*».
> 
> What kind of car is it, can you fit full bodies?
> 2w is definilty great, but needs a sub playing highers.
> Aiming will also affect tunnel reflections, can be a problem depending of its shape and material.
> 
> btw you want a 2 seats tune? (never bothered that so can;t help)
> But don't overthink all this at first, try them.
> Honestly it's really hard to get an idea of the dispersion pattern of the entire thing. And even with an unoptimized setup like my first time, it was so much fun, impact/dynamic, low distortion, better ratio direct/reflected sound.
> And it's so easy to mount/modify and test, I can remove them in 2 min now when I lend my car.
> 
> I think I still have some drivers around if you want to test, can lend you some full body if you want. I might even have more horns, need time to check.


Haha. I was REALLY looking into it..and then you know the 8x12 DL got announced and im sitting here like..$900 processor or $700 horns. Gotta pick one and only one. Welp. 

I really like my system now and it's NOWHERE near the level it could be if someone who could actually tune did it but..you know..tinkering is almost more fun than actually having a put together finished system. (>.>) haha. I also like the being different factor. 

I went to a local comp a few weeks ago and ended up giving a ton of demos. "Are you that guy with the 10s in the kicks and the furry doors?" loll. i got asked that like 8 times. I like to stand out  and horns would be fun to try out. Plus i'd like to learn how they work so i can possibly help a few spl guys simplify their installs without having massive walls of drivers on their doors to "keep up".

There is a ton of information in the forum section. A lot of 2011 info that i have to take with a grain of salt, knowing they didn't have anywhere near the processor capabilities that i have access too. If nothing else, i've learned who to send my questions to. Namely Mic10 and Eric. 

I asked E.S. about a 3 way and this was his response(also, is there a forum rule saying you can't post in threads what someone said in a PM?)

Background, Mic was telling me about crossovers for a 3 way.

E. S. vvvvvv

"3 way set as referenced by Mic Wallace is to get up front bass from both seats with rear mounted subwoofers. To get the best sound stage for a 2 seat system you will flip polarity of one midbass and the result is the sub will anchor up front for the nearest listener but not the other. With a dedicated midbass up front playing up to 180 or so you can anchor the sub up front and flip polarity above 180 to get both up front bass and good sound stage from both seats.With an HLCD system the midbass dont play high enough to benefit much from a reduction in doppler distortion, they arent covering as many octaves as a 6.5" playing to 3500/4000 hz."



For anyone reading: Doppler distortion being distortion that is introduced when a speaker playing midrange is also playing frequencies that require high excursion, generally X<100hz. (I think lol). Hence the reason we have one speaker play large excursion freq, and another play the rest.( I think lol)

Someone correct me if i'm wrong.

Anyway, it sounds to me like it might actually be better to run a 2 way+ sub if your goal is to run a 1 seat HLCD system, and a 3 way+ sub if your goal is to run a two seat system. 

i got some measurements from E. S. on his Minis and full bodies. Ill make some cardboard mock ups this weekend and see what my options are. Just from reading the HLCD section. It looks like the top contenders in competition are running minis in a car. If its a truck, they run full bodies. Something to do with needing that large body to get past the massive center/dash console. I'll have to get clarification on that from E.S. but that's my general notion from reading. 

Car is a 4 door sedan. The Camry .









I already have 10s in the kicks so fitting some ES 8s would be a cinch. Maybe i could find a 10 instead :3

Sadly, the Fi ib3s do all of 44hz before dropping so i wouldn't be able to use them with much effect..and that 5in baffle is PRETTY DAMN IN THERE. If i found i liked the HLCD and HE 8 or 10 enough to switch the substage. I'd probably go back to my SSA Icons. Those things are marvelous. but jesus, it would be no small feat getting the Fi's out.

"Trying" horns might be a bit boring for me at this point. I already have an obnoxious system. I am more of a..read everything i possibly can. Ask as many questions as i need..andddd start cutting into my firewall, type of person. 

What Mic10 did was put (eggcrate?) foam on the inside of the console and i think he said something about an absorption panel on the door as well. I could see that helping with the direct sound when its so far in the kicks/firewall. Pic below shows it pretty well but wrapped in microsuede. 










There is a lot of consensus on the transition from horn to dash being smooth having an huge impact on the overall sound. Though, even in the hlcd final winning cars. I don't see a Ton of effort put into that. I was thinking maybe using painters tape to create a smooth transition directly from the end of the mouth towards every corner of the dash. Then glassing it with 2-3 layers of that thin Walmart fiberglass cloth. Should work nicely, but thats thinking a lot into the future.

I have a lot more questions and reading to do before i try any installs with borrowed horns  and honestly... that Dirac is looking perrrrttyyy sexy. Maybe Oab will get one and make my life easy for figuring it out.


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## oabeieo

you Should be able to do full-size with a neo no problem 

And the size of that floor is huge 

That car should sound excellent 

Get the horns first if you have a dsp or a way to tune , do the Dirac box later 

It’s way better experience to tune a set of horns on your own and get to know how they behave with eq and power . I would pick the path of learning first, than get the Dirac box later , and by that time you’ll have the experience with them to know what to do and listen for 


Just make sure there mounted correctly and don’t try and put the horns up high or do silly stuff with them , do it right and use them how it should be done and conquer that first, than play around , but no joke take at least a year with proper underdash mount and a manual dsp. You will learn a **** ton and become a pro by the experience


Grosso is right they will fry your hair if not under control, I have days where I like to listen loud , it’s very easy at first to over gain them because the added volume is there , and the only thing that sounds good with them is a dynamic trance song. Don’t do that, get normal music to sound very good first, don’t be that guy.


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## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> you Should be able to do full-size with a neo no problem
> 
> 
> 
> And the size of that floor is huge
> 
> 
> 
> That car should sound excellent
> 
> 
> 
> Get the horns first if you have a dsp or a way to tune , do the Dirac box later
> 
> 
> 
> It’s way better experience to tune a set of horns on your own and get to know how they behave with eq and power . I would pick the path of learning first, than get the Dirac box later , and by that time you’ll have the experience with them to know what to do and listen for
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just make sure there mounted correctly and don’t try and put the horns up high or do silly stuff with them , do it right and use them how it should be done and conquer that first, than play around , but no joke take at least a year with proper underdash mount and a manual dsp. You will learn a **** ton and become a pro by the experience


Did Oab just tell me not to run Dirac? Did that just happen? No wayyy.

I suppose mounting horns normally flush with dash would be a good start and then when im happy, move onto pushing them back farther. So i have an idea of improvements and cons. 

You're taking my fun away with your logic.

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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Did Oab just tell me not to run Dirac? Did that just happen? No wayyy
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


Yes. With Stevens horns yes. Learn them first 

I edited my post ^ added another paragraph, and that’s why . 

Get them! But go through the learning process. It’s priceless. 
You’ll know how to tune a set of horns with a Dirac box like a boss once you know how to get them to sound good on normal music , not just ravers stuffs


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## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> you Should be able to do full-size with a neo no problem
> 
> 
> 
> And the size of that floor is huge
> 
> 
> 
> That car should sound excellent
> 
> 
> 
> Get the horns first if you have a dsp or a way to tune , do the Dirac box later
> 
> 
> 
> It’s way better experience to tune a set of horns on your own and get to know how they behave with eq and power . I would pick the path of learning first, than get the Dirac box later , and by that time you’ll have the experience with them to know what to do and listen for
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just make sure there mounted correctly and don’t try and put the horns up high or do silly stuff with them , do it right and use them how it should be done and conquer that first, than play around , but no joke take at least a year with proper underdash mount and a manual dsp. You will learn a **** ton and become a pro by the experience
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grosso is right they will fry your hair if not under control, I have days where I like to listen loud , it’s very easy at first to over gain them because the added volume is there , and the only thing that sounds good with them is a dynamic trance song. Don’t do that, get normal music to sound very good first, don’t be that guy.


You're making this sound like a whole new tuning experience...like its different than tuning a cone based car. Im not sure how i feel about that. I have a helix dsp.2 and the car already sounds great. I'd like to think the tuning experience is there. It shouldn't be much different than what I've already done other than sensitivity being high.

Or is this a totally different beast?

And how do you normally measure them? I've been doing Hanatsu style since day 1. Has worked for me thus far.

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## Eric Stevens

Jscoyne2 said:


> You're making this sound like a whole new tuning experience...like its different than tuning a cone based car. Im not sure how i feel about that. I have a helix dsp.2 and the car already sounds great. I'd like to think the tuning experience is there. It shouldn't be much different than what I've already done other than sensitivity being high.
> 
> Or is this a totally different beast?
> 
> And how do you normally measure them? I've been doing Hanatsu style since day 1. Has worked for me thus far.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


I tune all systems using the same process, HLCD system are not different to tune nor are they more difficult. Problem for most is they have developed short cuts or bad habits and the poor results are much more evident.


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## Eric Stevens

Improved PLD is always going to yield a corresponding improvement in sound stage and imaging as long as you dont sacrfice other factors. PLD is most important consideration because of the three factors at work in stereo reproduction " arrival" "phase" and "amplitude" the arrival is the strongest determining factor through the midrange frequency spectrum. 

Reflections are a consideration and the Stevens HLCD design address the problem with their dispersion pattern. As the frequency gets longer the problems associated with reflections is minimized in the direct versus reflected energy side of the problem and shifts to one of standing waves and cancelations. Dont concern yourself with matching polar response at the crossover in a car, that is appropriate for a listening room environment. First people shoudl get their car to even produce a proper sound stage before worying about how the low level reflections are affecting the system.

I have heard many 2 seat systems with simple 2 way HLCD + Midbass and subwoofer that produced an excellent soundstage with focused images and natural space and depth to the images within the sound stage. I have never heard with a center channel that I really liked and that rivalled the best 2 channel systems I have heard.

When considering placement you have to consider the dominant factor of the three for placement of images within the sound stage. Midbass can be in the door or have worse PLD because as the frequency gets lower placement of images within the sound stage is dominated by phase more than time or amplitude. That said it is still best to get PLD as small as possible.


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## Eric Stevens

Jscoyne2 said:


> I suppose mounting horns normally flush with dash would be a good start and then when im happy, move onto pushing them back farther. So i have an idea of improvements and cons.


Start with them as far left and right as possible and push back under dash as far as possible.

You need to make sure the underside of the dash in front of the horn is finished off though. Carpeted double wall cardboard is sufficient.


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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> You're making this sound like a whole new tuning experience...like its different than tuning a cone based car. Im not sure how i feel about that. I have a helix dsp.2 and the car already sounds great. I'd like to think the tuning experience is there. It shouldn't be much different than what I've already done other than sensitivity being high.
> 
> Or is this a totally different beast?
> 
> And how do you normally measure them? I've been doing Hanatsu style since day 1. Has worked for me thus far.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk



Eric said it very well , 
I especially like what he said about not worrying about lower phase issues 
And to worry more about getting the stage right. 


I was on the technical forum trying to explain that and got flamed over it but it’s so true 

If you have a “delay” setting that dosent match the actual distances but it sounds way better and makes the stage higher and farther why wouldn’t you go with that (within .5ms or so) 

Like Eric said they tune like a speaker because they are one , 
But you’ll have way better results and a much more enjoyable system with a regular dsp and horns vs going and buying a room correction dsp with your speakers. 

The room correction thing is fun , but it’s not necessary to have a kick ass system with a solid soundstage and with horns it’s pretty easy to get if you follow the steps and don’t rush through it or aren’t just about loud.


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## nyquistrate

oabeieo said:


> Like Eric said they tune like a speaker because they are one ,
> But you’ll have way better results and a much more enjoyable system with a regular dsp and horns vs going and buying a room correction dsp with your speakers.


This. ES horns just work. You have plenty of processing for them. Try them already.


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## Jscoyne2

nyquistrate said:


> This. ES horns just work. Try them already.


$700. Working on it.

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## nyquistrate

Jscoyne2 said:


> $700. Working on it.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


If you have the room you can start with the cheaper set. They aren't much bigger anyway.

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## Jscoyne2

Eric Stevens said:


> Start with them as far left and right as possible and push back under dash as far as possible.
> 
> You need to make sure the underside of the dash in front of the horn is finished off though. Carpeted double wall cardboard is sufficient.


Seeing the pic of my car and knowing id be going with your 8s as well. Would you recommend the Fulls or the minis?


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## Eric Stevens

Jscoyne2 said:


> Seeing the pic of my car and knowing id be going with your 8s as well. Would you recommend the Fulls or the minis?


I prefer full size so recommend them when they will fit. Either will work well though and MH will disappear and be less visible. MB8 is very good to well over 3Khz and not beaming at 1200 Hz so you can go with either.


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## nyquistrate

Eric Stevens said:


> Jscoyne2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seeing the pic of my car and knowing id be going with your 8s as well. Would you recommend the Fulls or the minis?
> 
> 
> 
> I prefer full size so recommend them when they will fit. Either will work well though and MH will disappear and be less visible. MB8 is very good to well over 3Khz and not beaming at 1200 Hz so you can go with either.
Click to expand...

Eric, do I remember correctly that the mini horns have a steeper far side cross pattern and is useful in very wide vehicles like trucks? If so, I'm understanding that you always want to use a large body in a car if it will fit?


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## Elgrosso

Jscoyne2 said:


> Car is a 4 door sedan. The Camry .


If not deep that seems wide and well opened. Can you remove the central console?
It's a front wheel drive right? Maybe there’s still some stuff for the transmission but it should be easy to make it smaller and less reflective.


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## Jscoyne2

Full size mock up. Could most likely get an in or two more on the passenger side by moving the kick panel. I'd have to rebuild the kicks enclosure for 8s mist likely. Might need the clearance












































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## Jscoyne2

...such a filthy car

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## Blu

Not sure if you have been to the Stevens Audio Group page on Facebook, but there is a fellow there that has just installed a set of the full-size horns in a 2003 Camry... might be worth a visit.

I think that getting the passenger side horn further toward the door would be a good thing.

HTH


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## Horsemanwill

try to get that driver side back further if possible


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## oabeieo

What about miniHLCD when all else fail minis fit everything (with enormous amounts of zip ties and blackstrap)


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## Jscoyne2

How big are the normal and Mini?

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## Elgrosso

Someone shared this here a long time ago (note it should be cm and not mm):









But don't forget the driver that will take some room.


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## Jscoyne2

Elgrosso said:


> Someone shared this here a long time ago (note it should be cm and not mm):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But don't forget the driver that will take some room.


Wait. Are the drivers the same size and its the horn thats a different size?

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## Elgrosso

Ha yes, and driver placement is different.
You can find different driver size (especially if neo) but most of the difference comes from the horn shape and the way the driver is attached.


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## LumbermanSVO

There are also two different styles of large horns. The one pictured above, and one where the driver mount is pretty much 90º to the front of the body.


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## Horsemanwill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5d_--t3XJ0

horn 101


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## Horsemanwill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUtGkdM4MAg

part 2


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## Horsemanwill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y3OIfwn4no

part 3


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## Horsemanwill

https://www.youtube.com/user/Backyardinstallers/videos

link to all of Matt's vids lots of things on Eric's horns have at em


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## Elgrosso

So how is it man?


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## Jscoyne2

Well. Im having a hard time justifying the price tag. Its kinda like. Take my tax return and get a Harley...or get some horns and have cash left over.


I haven't spent $700 on my entire front stage combined.


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## Horsemanwill

i've seen people spend a lot more on a front stage. hell even more on just subs


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## Jscoyne2

Horsemanwill said:


> i've seen people spend a lot more on a front stage. hell even more on just subs


Well ya. But my system sounds friggin great rn and I'm all in with uh..$420 with a 3 way front stage.

I've got a few grand in wiring. Amps. Deadening. Subs Ect but still. Thats a lot of little things combined. Not just one huge purchase.

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## Horsemanwill

they are always popping up used. could always try that way first if you have your doubts


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## Jscoyne2

Horsemanwill said:


> they are always popping up used. could always try that way first if you have your doubts


Whats your experience with going from a traditional cone to a hlcd?

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## nyquistrate

Jscoyne2 said:


> I haven't spent $700 on my entire front stage combined.


The neo's would be nice, but you can start with either pro set at $385:

Full size
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webs...xzILmKUPNfrwMncqYtgP5ij4nsBFpAXwnIOrgYVSHwqc0

Mini horn
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webs...LL1_aRQxESBxz1Hc1Pm32aaH2EZRdgOfeelXJKUXEBobY


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## Jscoyne2

nyquistrate said:


> The neo's would be nice, but you can start with either pro set at $385:
> 
> 
> 
> Full size
> 
> https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webs...xzILmKUPNfrwMncqYtgP5ij4nsBFpAXwnIOrgYVSHwqc0
> 
> 
> 
> Mini horn
> 
> https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webs...LL1_aRQxESBxz1Hc1Pm32aaH2EZRdgOfeelXJKUXEBobY


Whats the difference between the cheaper or more expensive options? Just level of detail?

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## Horsemanwill

well let me think. i think i've been running hlcd since late 90's early 2000's. before that i ran Image dynamics nx30's and before that Infinity kapa. since i went horns i've never looked back. installation wasn't hard and at the time all i had for processor was what was in an Eclipse CD7100 hu


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## Elgrosso

I have a pair of pro for sale if you want, I keep my full body for later. Sold the neo comp last week.
Also have some horns somewhere, USD I think.

But yeah sure if you're into bike... an old one?


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## Horsemanwill

with the "more expensive ones" you can cross lower and it has more of an "airyness" about it.

at least that's what they say, i went from cd1eV2 straight to the ultra's and now the comps


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## Horsemanwill

Elgrosso said:


> I have a pair of pro for sale if you want, I keep my full body for later. Sold the neo comp last week.
> Also have some horns somewhere, USD I think.
> 
> But yeah sure if you're into bike... an old one?


it's his first time going horns why would you suggest USD lol, you know they don't measure up to Eric's design lol


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## nyquistrate

Horsemanwill said:


> with the "more expensive ones" you can cross lower and it has more of an "airyness" about it.
> 
> at least that's what they say, i went from cd1eV2 straight to the ultra's and now the comps


So... Have you heard the NEO's?

Which ones are the comps? Are those the brand new ones? I didn't see them on Eric's page.


----------



## Elgrosso

Horsemanwill said:


> it's his first time going horns why would you suggest USD lol, you know they don't measure up to Eric's design lol


Haha sure, but he must know as he probably read all threads here 
a bit cheaper maybe?

pro VS neo, it’s maybe for the last 5-10%.


----------



## Horsemanwill

nyquistrate said:


> So... Have you heard the NEO's?
> 
> Which ones are the comps? Are those the brand new ones? I didn't see them on Eric's page.


i have the latest upper end the comp neo's i always just call them the comps.


----------



## nyquistrate

Horsemanwill said:


> i have the latest upper end the comp neo's i always just call them the comps.


Gotcha. So, you skipped the current PRO.


----------



## Horsemanwill

yeah


----------



## Jscoyne2

Uh huh..

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## Jscoyne2

What do you think the effect would be if you were to cut out the bottom part of your door panel and build a giant foam Acoustics trap and did similar on the center console side as well. Effectively making it so only the vertical dispersion is the main wave.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## Jscoyne2

I wonder how loud they'd get on deck power.

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## Holmz

Jscoyne2 said:


> I wonder how loud they'd get on deck power.


Most horns are around 110dB(A) at 1W.
And most head units will output 1W pretty cleanly.
110dB(A) is generally more than enough, so...


----------



## Eric Stevens

Jscoyne2 said:


> What do you think the effect would be if you were to cut out the bottom part of your door panel and build a giant foam Acoustics trap and did similar on the center console side as well. Effectively making it so only the vertical dispersion is the main wave.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


Door wont really help the HLCD, center console is much greater chance of helping or produce desireable results.

Doors could clean up the lower midrange and upper midbass though.


----------



## oabeieo

One time I padded my entire car, 
It didn’t do a whole lot, a tiny bit in midrange was nice. But it made it so I could tell exactly where speakers were mounted. 

It wasn’t worth it and I took it all off , when I did the glass it was better but obviously need glass to see so that wasn’t happening 

I ended up driving for a week with padding on the back windows , I liked the way that sounded , it came down tho when the kids rode with me.


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> One time I padded my entire car,
> 
> It didn’t do a whole lot, a tiny bit in midrange was nice. But it made it so I could tell exactly where speakers were mounted.
> 
> 
> 
> It wasn’t worth it and I took it all off , when I did the glass it was better but obviously need glass to see so that wasn’t happening
> 
> 
> 
> I ended up driving for a week with padding on the back windows , I liked the way that sounded , it came down tho when the kids rode with me.


I asked the magic bus guy about acoustic absorption and he said something about wanting to add diffraction panels instead. I'll try to find the email later

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## Eric Stevens

Jscoyne2 said:


> I asked the magic bus guy about acoustic absorption and he said something about wanting to add diffraction panels instead. I'll try to find the email later
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


I have never applied diffraction panels to a car installation to deal with reflections. Shooting from the hip without thorough processing I believe it would be helpful but would require the use of absorbtion as well.


----------



## Jscoyne2

Eric Stevens said:


> I have never applied diffraction panels to a car installation to deal with reflections. Shooting from the hip without thorough processing I believe it would be helpful but would require the use of absorbtion as well.


found the email.

"as you know cars are hostile acoustical environments. 

your approach with acoustic foam is well-intentioned but flawed. the LAST thing a car needs is broadband acoustical absorption. furthermore, foam only works at frequencies for mid- to high- frequencies. using too much foam will suck the life out of the music and create unbalanced reverberation spectra. lastly, you would be taking a “shotgun” approach to acoustical treatments thinking that too much of a good thing is not possible. there’s no point in expending effort where it is not needed - but, how do you know where effort IS needed, and what is the best solution? science must be employed. 

you’ve done well by damping the sheet metal body. 

what you need are mostly DIFFUSIVE surfaces to scatter sound uniformly, and minimal absorption only exactly where you need it, like at points of first reflection (think ray tracing, see my part 6 article on my website).

just like in the magic bus you really only need bass traps like Helmholtz absorbers."


----------



## Jscoyne2

Eric Stevens said:


> I have never applied diffraction panels to a car installation to deal with reflections. Shooting from the hip without thorough processing I believe it would be helpful but would require the use of absorption as well.


You should update your FB pics for your $385 horns. Just your logo is kinda hard to understand what you're buying without looking at the neo version names to compare.



















Which of these do you guys think is a better option for mounting? IE: have you found install differences between the two in sedans?


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## Horsemanwill

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?li...IPD55M9TdFvY4jV-v_efNShk3FS9Sv1sQG4xHmzldxJlA

Matt does a great explanation


----------



## slvrtsunami

I know it has been resurrected, but this is GOLD for me. been running horns since 2008 in two cars, about to do the third...

SUBBED!!


----------



## Jscoyne2

Ordered some minis. 

...sigh here we go.

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## Jscoyne2

And it begins









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## Jscoyne2

Am i missing something? How do give it a signal? How do i mount it to the horn when it doesn't even come close to fitting?























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## Jscoyne2

Eric Stevens said:


> I have never applied diffraction panels to a car installation to deal with reflections. Shooting from the hip without thorough processing I believe it would be helpful but would require the use of absorbtion as well.



^^^^above.

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## truckerfte

oabeieo said:


> I ended up driving for a week with padding on the back windows , I liked the way that sounded , it came down tho when the kids rode with me.


 What did you use for said padding? I've got a small truck with horns, and my ears being 6 inches away from the rear class the reflections are.... noticeable


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## nyquistrate

Jscoyne2 said:


> Am i missing something? How do give it a signal? How do i mount it to the horn when it doesn't even come close to fitting?
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


Yeah, something looks definitely "off" in those pics. I don't have the NEO's but do have three other versions. Mine all have compression input terminals and either mount flush or have standoffs. Have you contacted Eric?


----------



## Jscoyne2

nyquistrate said:


> Yeah, something looks definitely "off" in those pics. I don't have the NEO's but do have three other versions. Mine all have compression input terminals and either mount flush or have standoffs. Have you contacted Eric?


Quoted him so im sure he'll get back to me.

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## Jimi77

Looks like you need a smaller compression driver. Bummer. I hope the horns work out for you.


----------



## Blu

Jscoyne2 said:


> How do i mount it to the horn when it doesn't even come close to fitting?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


It's a simple fix... just need to sand/grind away a little bit of the inside corner that is contacting the side of the driver.

There is plenty of body there, you won't hurt the horn body doing so.

I have photo's of how I did it somewhere - I'll see if I can find them and post them a bit later.

As to the connection - it looks like the driver was accidentally shipped without a diaphragm. Eric should be able to help you on this.


----------



## Blu

Found them...

I used a small piece of 3/8" thick tempered glass (shelf) and glued a strip of sandpaper along the edge. As seen in lower left hand corner of first image.

[url=https://imgur.com/dm9oHN5][/URL] 

I simply placed the mounting face of the horn on the flat side of the glass shelf and with the sandpaper edge against the inside corner of the horn, just used it like a big sanding block until I had the clearance I needed.




I gave the mounting face of the horn a quick and very light sanding just to level it out a bit but that was a separate step and not likely necessary.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Eric Stevens

Jscoyne2 said:


> Am i missing something? How do give it a signal? How do i mount it to the horn when it doesn't even come close to fitting?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk



Yeah that aint right, The diaphragm is missing. That was an oops on my part. I will send replacements and a tag for those. 

My second oops is the driver mounting area has to be modified for the new Comp Ferrite drivers. its simple to remove some material so the driver sits flat. I use a 4" angle grinder to accomlish the task.

Please call me this am 310-869-4438 so I can make sure and get this fixed Today for you.


----------



## Jscoyne2

Things in the way. Dremel and rewire later. Things not in the way. The bottom of my glove compartment has a flat spot that perfectly fits the contour of the horn





































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## slvrtsunami

keep it coming!!!


----------



## Jscoyne2

Made my own damn threaded inserts.









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## Jscoyne2

Finding places to mount this has not been fun. Im not super happy with the transition. I might cut up the plastic piece of the dash and form a better roll off from the horn. 

What do you all think?


...im dreading the driver side






























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## slvrtsunami

Looks like a pain... what does the driver side look like? Hopefully there isn't a parking brake pedal


----------



## Jscoyne2

slvrtsunami said:


> Looks like a pain... what does the driver side look like?  Hopefully there isn't a parking brake pedal


Its not in yet but the Brake already got dealt with a long time ago when i put in 10in midbass

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## nyquistrate

I would try a strip of ABS.


----------



## Jscoyne2

nyquistrate said:


> I would try a strip of ABS.


You know what. I have that! 

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## Horsemanwill

do you got anything supporting the driver ?


----------



## oabeieo

Do you still haven’t installed your horns 

Dood get with it!


----------



## slvrtsunami

Jscoyne2 said:


> Its not in yet but the Brake already got dealt with a long time ago when i put in 10in midbass
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


Ha, just noticed the hole in the floor board on the passenger side!


----------



## Jscoyne2

Its on the driver side too. I had family show up last week and they are a ****ing tornado of chaos. I got the passenger side mounted but i honestly have no idea how to mount the driver side. There's nothing anywhere

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## Jscoyne2

Got a lil done. Somewhat mounted. I did a fair bit of rewiring and moving relays and blocks of wire. Accidentally cut a few small factory wires....that was fun to fix. 

I think im gonna do a small layer or two of fiberglass cloth to smooth that transition. 


I did a lot of reading through the hlcd forum and i kept seeing the same thing over and over. 

Transition. Is. Everything. So im going to try and focus that as much as possible.





































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## Jscoyne2

Also i ripped out the e-brake mechanism...like... completely. So im goimg to hook up a 12 volt actuator to a switch and find somewhere to mount the whole thing. Flip a switch. Pull the wire. Brake engaged. Vice versa. 

On a side note. Went to a comp the other weekend. Gave someone a demo and they shook my steering wheel. Like Shook it. I knew it was moving pretty badly when i braked. Figured it was warped rotors. He was like nah.. that's your center pin that holds your steering wheel. I went home that weekend. Tore my steering wheel off and sure enough. The pin was half way threaded off.

Dude prob saved my life. 

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## slvrtsunami

Jscoyne2 said:


> Also i ripped out the e-brake mechanism...like... completely. So im goimg to hook up a 12 volt actuator to a switch and find somewhere to mount the whole thing. Flip a switch. Pull the wire. Brake engaged. Vice versa.
> 
> On a side note. Went to a comp the other weekend. Gave someone a demo and they shook my steering wheel. Like Shook it. I knew it was moving pretty badly when i braked. Figured it was warped rotors. He was like nah.. that's your center pin that holds your steering wheel. I went home that weekend. Tore my steering wheel off and sure enough. The pin was half way threaded off.
> 
> Dude prob saved my life.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


Why did he shake the wheel in the first place?

Buy that man a beer!!!

good luck with the transition, and I agree, transition is everything.
Can't wait to get mine installed.


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## Jscoyne2

Dat transition.

Get you one of these. You want threads? Have threads!!























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## Jscoyne2

Not the actual driver im gonna use but still an 8in.
















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## Jscoyne2

The gap to the dash was bigger than i liked so i took a single layer of fiberglass cloth. Glassed it and let it dry on a flat panel. This gives you a very pliable but strong and semi translucent material. I put it between the metal brackets on the top of the horn and ill glue it to the dash piece. Its invisible and gives a super good transition.























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## Jscoyne2

Ill paint it to match but ohhhhh.im a lil impressed with myself
















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## slvrtsunami

Damn.... talk about smooth transition


----------



## Blu

Note to self: Remember this.

Looks good!


----------



## Jscoyne2

Blu said:


> Note to self: Remember this.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks good!


What i did was lay a piece of glass down and then put some tinfoil down on top of it and smoothed the foil out. Then i layed the cloth down and glassed it. Makes for a superrr easy removal.

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## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> Do you still haven’t installed your horns
> 
> 
> 
> Dood get with it!


Do these look angled to you? They are flush with the dash but from the driver position they look angled towards the passenger really heavily. 

You can see part of the mouth on the left side and it gets less and towards the right. All the installs i see, you can see both sides equally





































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## Horsemanwill

Do you anything supporting the magnet structure?


----------



## slvrtsunami

I think you just need to make sure they are perpendicular to the floor and the right and left side is equidistant from a common point on both sides, like a seat rail anchor. I ran into the same thing in my Yaris, and the right side VC opening was beaming directly into my right year. Not fun...


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## Jscoyne2

I did some adjusting. Got it where i like it.

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## Blu

Jscoyne2 said:


> I did some adjusting. Got it where i like it.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


So what did you do and what are your preliminary thoughts?


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## Jscoyne2

Blu said:


> So what did you do and what are your preliminary thoughts?


Just made an identical bracing strap but like half an inch longer in the middle. I haven't played music yet. Gotta wait for 8s to get here and make some kick enclosures. Won't have anything going for awhile 

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## slvrtsunami

I thought you were staying with 10's?


----------



## Jscoyne2

slvrtsunami said:


> I thought you were staying with 10's?


Won't fit with horns plus Eric doesn't make 10" high efficiency drivers, only 8s.

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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Won't fit with horns plus Eric doesn't make 10" high efficiency drivers, only 8s.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


I’m a little jell 

Your firewall cut looks promising 

I took out all my gear today.

I’m re-doing some things also


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> I’m a little jell
> 
> 
> 
> Your firewall cut looks promising
> 
> 
> 
> I took out all my gear today.
> 
> 
> 
> I’m re-doing some things also


The firewall cut was what the 10s were ventes thru

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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> The firewall cut was what the 10s were ventes thru
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


Oh ok 

I could’ve sworn I saw you cut out for horn


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> Oh ok
> 
> 
> 
> I could’ve sworn I saw you cut out for horn


Yea i quoted another thread from someone who did that and i was like whattttt

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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Yea i quoted another thread from someone who did that and i was like whattttt
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk



So I’ve reqlly been getting into the nitty gritty with Dirac live 

On horns, I’m finding it better (at least in my car) to not let Dirac do the correction or for the horns a completely different Dirac box and take measurements in the middle of the-car

Meaning the cdsp won’t work right 

A pair of 24s or a different combo would because you need two 1st measurements 

Maybe should start a thread. ???


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> So I’ve reqlly been getting into the nitty gritty with Dirac live
> 
> 
> 
> On horns, I’m finding it better (at least in my car) to not let Dirac do the correction or for the horns a completely different Dirac box and take measurements in the middle of the-car
> 
> 
> 
> Meaning the cdsp won’t work right
> 
> 
> 
> A pair of 24s or a different combo would because you need two 1st measurements
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe should start a thread. ???


Start a new thread but try and keep everything...simple enough so the rest of us can understand

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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Start a new thread but try and keep everything...simple enough so the rest of us can understand
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk



Dirac adds too much delay....We’ll it’s actually perfect, but the width from horns is diminished ..... horns sound better with less delay, 
The way it moves the phase makes it hard to simply move the delay back. 

A combo of Dirac and or two Dirac’s so you can have two 1st measurements is ideal.


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> Dirac adds too much delay....We’ll it’s actually perfect, but the width from horns is diminished ..... horns sound better with less delay,
> 
> The way it moves the phase makes it hard to simply move the delay back.
> 
> 
> 
> A combo of Dirac and or two Dirac’s so you can have two 1st measurements is ideal.


Ill have to try a tune with my helix and with my Dirac and see what i like more. Dirac blowssss my helix outta the water with cones tho.

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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Ill have to try a tune with my helix and with my Dirac and see what i like more. Dirac blowssss my helix outta the water with cones tho.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk




Try this do a tune on everything except horns 

Use curtain and curtain off all the horn frequencies 
Stop a little before where your horn crossover is 

If your crossing at 1.2k curtain off to 1k 

Than hook your helix through the Dirac so it pics up the delay from fir 
From Dirac, but than do a seperate tune on horns and subtract any delay from left to right 


If there’s no response in the curtain it won’t move any phase 
That’s why stop a little before , you should be able to pick up a untouched signal except near the crossover point, that’s okay. 

I did that and works nicer , I have a wider stage....

I wonder if you have same luck


Which Dirac do you have


----------



## Jscoyne2

Someone should really get metal cutting tools away from me
















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## oabeieo

I’m cutting more also 

Except I’m cutting a 18” sub in IB 

I think next I’m doing a full blow dash rebuild 
And doing horns and 8 mid height 

I so much want to gut my dash and hollow it out

I’m almost done building up my TADs 
It’s almost time to just go nuts all the way


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> I’m cutting more also
> 
> 
> 
> Except I’m cutting a 18” sub in IB
> 
> 
> 
> I think next I’m doing a full blow dash rebuild
> 
> And doing horns and 8 mid height
> 
> 
> 
> I so much want to gut my dash and hollow it out
> 
> 
> 
> I’m almost done building up my TADs
> 
> It’s almost time to just go nuts all the way


..but why

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## Jscoyne2

Fooot rooom.
















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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> ..but why
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


I get board easily of my system. 

Once I hit the end of tuning capacity with whatever I’m using it’s time to change 
And punish myself more . The constant chase for spaceship land. 

I rarely hit spaceship, and it’s so excitement when I do, it’s usually the next day and I am like , it’s just the same thing as it was yesterday and the spaceship fades away and the quest continues


----------



## Jscoyne2

Hmm. So the whole system is in and playing off Dirac. I feel...like i liked my cone drivers more.

I don't feel like there is enough of a difference between my 3 way and my horns to really warrant the money put in.

They aren't bad by any means, but they are the same as the cones but maybe just a tad bit not as good? 

This is day 1 listening tho. Drivers haven't been played more than an hour. 

I feel like t/a and levels respond far differently than cones do. I can flip my polarity on my horns and basically not hear a difference other than a 6in vertical lift of stage height. Measurements wise though, they barely show a difference when testing their interaction with MB, with polarity swapped from normal to inverted. 

Its also hard to tell but i feel my stage is left windshield driver mirror to about 6in right of center...but im honestly not sure. 



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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Hmm. So the whole system is in and playing off Dirac. I feel...like i liked my cone drivers more.
> 
> I don't feel like there is enough of a difference between my 3 way and my horns to really warrant the money put in.
> 
> They aren't bad by any means, but they are the same as the cones but maybe just a tad bit not as good?
> 
> This is day 1 listening tho. Drivers haven't been played more than an hour.
> 
> I feel like t/a and levels respond far differently than cones do. I can flip my polarity on my horns and basically not hear a difference other than a 6in vertical lift of stage height. Measurements wise though, they barely show a difference when testing their interaction with MB, with polarity swapped from normal to inverted.
> 
> Its also hard to tell but i feel my stage is left windshield driver mirror to about 6in right of center...but im honestly not sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


Oh be patient my friend 
You’ll see the light soon enough 

They are just a speaker also, just a little tricky , not a lot tricky 
I promise there no cones that can play like that in the 1k-5k range 

Your on day one with horns 

Keep messing with it you find the spot. Play with delays and levels and eq and you’ll find the magic. 

It should sound like you’re at a very high-quality concert as far as the tonality 
And then you just got a shape your stage It will all come together keep playing with it


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> Oh be patient my friend
> 
> You’ll see the light soon enough
> 
> 
> 
> They are just a speaker also, just a little tricky , not a lot tricky
> 
> I promise there no cones that can play like that in the 1k-5k range
> 
> 
> 
> Your on day one with horns
> 
> 
> 
> Keep messing with it you find the spot. Play with delays and levels and eq and you’ll find the magic.
> 
> 
> 
> It should sound like you’re at a very high-quality concert as far as the tonality
> 
> And then you just got a shape your stage It will all come together keep playing with it


I've had zero issues with stage height. But that may be because of the perfect transition between dash and horn..im still patting my self on the back for thinking of that  

It paid to do some reading and research on good horn install technique. 

I think honestly, i just hate the couch setting on dirac. It doesn't get me what i want and everything is too blurry. A small square around my head with a 6in difference between height points and front and back measurements, gets me a really good tune. 



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## Jscoyne2

Funny tho. I still have my tweeters installed. Think i might leave then. See if anyone notices the horns 

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## Jscoyne2

Dynamics are nice tho

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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> I've had zero issues with stage height. But that may be because of the perfect transition between dash and horn..im still patting my self on the back for thinking of that
> 
> It paid to do some reading and research on good horn install technique.
> 
> I think honestly, i just hate the couch setting on dirac. It doesn't get me what i want and everything is too blurry. A small square around my head with a 6in difference between height points and front and back measurements, gets me a really good tune.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk




Excellent! 

Yes that’s very good news 


We’ll go with chair than 

Do what you like that’s the point of this hobby 

Your system will react differently than others so no set rules


----------



## Jscoyne2

It may be because i haven't had a running system in more than a month but man.

Why am i tapping my foot to every song. 

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## LumbermanSVO

Jscoyne2 said:


> Dynamics are nice tho
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


That's why I wanted to fit horns in my Miata so badly.


----------



## oabeieo

LumbermanSVO said:


> That's why I wanted to fit horns in my Miata so badly.


A Miata would be a great horn car 

Sit low , dash is setup good windshield is more straight up n down 

Except for that monster console.


----------



## Jscoyne2

So when you guys talk about the center console in cars. Are you referring to the dash or like where the shifter is and the right console where u rest your arms. Is it better to remove that?

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## LumbermanSVO

We are talking about the part that bolts to the floor. Unfortunately, in most new cars that piece and the dash are one continuous assembly, so getting rid of it isn't a solid options. In my Miata it wouldn't do much good to eliminate it because the transmission tunnel is so tall it almost meets the bottom of the dash.

Ideally you'd have a dash with a completely flat bottom edge that then tapers up to the gauge panel. There would be a big fat gap between the bottom edge of the dash and the floor pan, with no plastic bits between the seats. 

Obstructions in the middle cause reflections. The taper from the bottom edge up to the panel help to extend the horn effect and get that nice transition you worked so hard for, and raise the stage up.

That's the idea behind the dash rebuild in my Bronco:







(Haven't worked on the bottom edge yet)


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## oabeieo

Skinny car no console is the primary reason I bought the fit 
Plus places to put speakers.
The big console tend to make the horns more separate sounding , like two sound sources instead of playing together as one big seem less sound field. To try to describe the reflection artifacts caused by the console. 



His old ford will be so nice for horns. Has all the right items. 

A big wide truck with 8s high up in the door and minihorns is one of my favorite sounds. The stage is massive and the center is super massive and pronounced.

I did horns in a older ram truck that thing had suck awesome imaging


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## Jscoyne2

I feel like my horn fires more into the middle console(front center of car) than the transmission. You can see where it hits coming out of the horn and there is a ton of steel behind that plastic.

hump
















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## Eric Stevens

The quick way to test if your console is causing and early reflection is to use large towels draped over and listen.

The strongest output angle is the centerline of the 2 axis flare section of the horn. The output at the angle of your ruler is much lower.


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## Eric Stevens

Also dont be shy , call and discuss tuning 310 869 4438


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## Jscoyne2

Hmm









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## Frijoles24

Eric Stevens said:


> Also dont be shy , call and discuss tuning 310 869 4438


no joke on that. I bought me some diaphragm replacements from him for my cd ultras, and we ended up talking for 30+ min easy! (had to break off the convo cause he told me he was headed to church and i was holding him) :laugh:

gave me feedback for my fender airspaced idq15. which is now semi IB. def fixed the problem i was having.


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## slvrtsunami

​


Jscoyne2 said:


> Hmm
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> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


Sorry, I really cant see a reason for ding that, the center tunnel is too high...


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## Jscoyne2

Hmmm









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## Jscoyne2

slvrtsunami said:


> ​
> 
> 
> Sorry, I really cant see a reason for ding that, the center tunnel is too high...


Welllll too late!

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## Jscoyne2

Eric Stevens said:


> Also dont be shy , call and discuss tuning 310 869 4438


Do you think that dash mats might actually be a bad thing when using horns as the wave follows the contours of the dash, it hits the dash mat and kinda goes all over, instead of continuing to follow the dash curves?


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## Eric Stevens

Jscoyne2 said:


> Do you think that dash mats might actually be a bad thing when using horns as the wave follows the contours of the dash, it hits the dash mat and kinda goes all over, instead of continuing to follow the dash curves?


The wave may follow thge contour but the strength at that point is very very minimal compared to the direct energy. 

So yes, absolutely use a dahs mat.


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## slvrtsunami

Eric Stevens said:


> The wave may follow thge contour but the strength at that point is very very minimal compared to the direct energy.
> 
> So yes, absolutely use a dahs mat.



Darn it Eric.... Another thing I have to pass by the wife!! :laugh::laugh:


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## slvrtsunami

Jscoyne2 said:


> Welllll too late!
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk




More power to you!! love to see how it turns out!


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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> I feel like my horn fires more into the middle console(front center of car) than the transmission. You can see where it hits coming out of the horn and there is a ton of steel behind that plastic.
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Your console isn’t “that” big either


Have you seen a Miata or a BMW 5-Series console ....that’s massive and wide as hell. 

The Camry should sound very good. 

If you have full-size horns look at the flare. Not the angle of the outer wall. 


Look at this home horn , see how it flares at the ends 

Now look at your full size horn and look for the flare , it’s circular and about 1/4th a full circle , the ends where your ruler are are to help it play low and isn’t where most the energy is. If you looking at it, from the far edges and into the horn you’ll see the 1/4 (ish) circle shaped flare, that’s where almost all of the sound comes from. In actually the horn is quite small where it matters. 

It should start to make sense and basically looks like a rounded horn firing forwards the other side of car 


I’ll try and find a pic 


Edit here’s a pic ...see the flares on both horns. 
The exit angle on Eric’s comes strong more forward and towards you and more straight forward than completely sideways , but still is “aimed” sideways if you look at it .

About where the 2nd arrow is where a lot of energy comes out. Is that general area. If your lower dash is buried it can cause some reflection, but it more the entire console instead of the far underside only. More where your right leg is.
And again the Camry console can easily be delt with. It’s not big at all.


Edit: seriously call Eric. 



what do forensic anthropologists study


how do i upload images to the forum


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## Jscoyne2

Thats a layer of mlv with a ton of holes drilledin it and thin carpet on top.

Not done yet tho.























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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Thats a layer of mlv with a ton of holes drilledin it and thin carpet on top.
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Bravo for sayin ****it and going to town anyway but I don’t think it’s that necessary, but it definitely can’t hurt anything 

Look at the lower dash and subdash area under radio 

You can seeee how low the horn is in relation and you are in no way firing it into a brick wall. 

Your car should be sounding awesome...


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## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> Bravo for sayin ****it and going to town anyway but I don’t think it’s that necessary, but it definitely can’t hurt anything
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> Your car should be sounding awesome...


The motto of this car is **** it. 

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## Jscoyne2

I like how the beginning of this thread was like..hey questions on horns... and now im like...lol

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## oabeieo

YOU have to say it sounds good tho....I can’t see how it wouldn’t


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## slvrtsunami

The biggest part that is bumming me out is that I am too far away to listen to it!


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## Jscoyne2

Idk. I have a ton of foam showing up this week so im not gonna test it till then. Im putting in 3in wedges in the bottom half of the door and 1in wedges as a dash mat(maybe).

Mostly ima just throw foam all over the car and see if it sounds nice with dirac. 

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## slvrtsunami

Jscoyne2 said:


> Idk. I have a ton of foam showing up this week so im not gonna test it till then. Im putting in 3in wedges in the bottom half of the door and 1in wedges as a dash mat(maybe).
> 
> Mostly ima just throw foam all over the car and see if it sounds nice with dirac.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk



so basically you are going to turn your car into an anechoic chamber on wheels?


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## Jscoyne2

slvrtsunami said:


> so basically you are going to turn your car into an anechoic chamber on wheels?


Maybeeee

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## Jscoyne2

slvrtsunami said:


> so basically you are going to turn your car into an anechoic chamber on wheels?


Because i have dirac. Im gonna add some foam in different areas slowly and do a tune with each one of them. See if they are helping or hindering stage, depth, tonality,ect 

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## Jscoyne2

Question. In theory, do you think it'd be better to have absolutely no center console. Like flat with the floor, or a big block of acoustic foam where the center console would be 

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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Question. In theory, do you think it'd be better to have absolutely no center console. Like flat with the floor, or a big block of acoustic foam where the center console would be
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk



In theory no console no hump , flat floor 

However, the midbass is more affected than the horn on that.
The midbass will start to hornload in the footwell , with no hump it isn’t in 1/4space as much. The reflection from a footwell depending on frequency can load in ways that are not good for imaging. i.e. imagine a narrow Q frequency part of the midbass/lower midrange that gives away its location, “funnels” that sound to analogy it to one spot. So that one frequency always sounds like it’s coming from only that spot and isn’t spread out. That’s kind of horn loading is almost impossible to get rid of and you have to tune your entire system around that one problem. Which makes tuning more challenging. Not to mention the severe nulls that would also come with that loading. And also not to mention the echoes that also come with it. 


A low and small console like yours isn’t bad, and your underdash is not super deep like some other cars have which exacerbates the problems even farther.


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## Holmz

​


slvrtsunami said:


> so basically you are going to turn your car into an anechoic chamber on wheels?


Christmas is coming up. One could flock the car?


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## Jscoyne2

Holmz said:


> ​
> 
> 
> Christmas is coming up. One could flock the car?


Absolutely not

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## Jscoyne2

Guys guys.

The fur is gone  

But in its place. Insulation. I was reading about using foam and saw that insulation and rockwool is far far more efficient. So i l made it work. 

Cut out the front of the enclosures, stuffed it full of insulation then wrapped it in fabric. 

Gonna make a melamine dash mat tomorrow.





































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## Jscoyne2

Yaa









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## Jscoyne2

Frankly im embarrassed to post this but screw it. Let it be known i am an atrocious fabricator. 

3/4in melamine foam.












































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## Jscoyne2

If i ever do that again...or in q car i give 2 ****s about. Id order some thinsulate from ebay and sow it in layers the mat.

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## dgage

You should call the police. It’s obvious somebody did a drive-by and messed up your dash while you weren’t looking. 

You’d definitely be better of getting larger sheets of flexible material to build the dashmat treatment.


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## Jscoyne2

dgage said:


> You should call the police. It’s obvious somebody did a drive-by and messed up your dash while you weren’t looking.
> 
> 
> 
> You’d definitely be better of getting larger sheets of flexible material to build the dashmat treatment.


Agreed. Unfortunately. Melamine foam sheets like are 10x the price of the 3/4in cubes for whatever reason. 

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## Jscoyne2

dgage said:


> You should call the police. It’s obvious somebody did a drive-by and messed up your dash while you weren’t looking.
> 
> 
> 
> You’d definitely be better of getting larger sheets of flexible material to build the dashmat treatment.


For whatever reason. Melamine foam cubes are $10 shipped on ebay. But sheets are like $70+ sooo. Whatevs.

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## dgage

Jscoyne2 said:


> For whatever reason. Melamine foam cubes are $10 shipped on ebay. But sheets are like $70+ sooo. Whatevs.


I blame Mr. Clean and their Magic Erasers. They don’t want any competition so they buy up all he big sheets.  Didn’t realize it was that expensive by the sheet though. Dang.


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## Jscoyne2

dgage said:


> I blame Mr. Clean and their Magic Erasers. They don’t want any competition so they buy up all he big sheets.  Didn’t realize it was that expensive by the sheet though. Dang.


Yupp









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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Frankly im embarrassed to post this but screw it. Let it be known i am an atrocious fabricator.
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Hahahah!!! You didn’t ! For reals ....**** yeah!


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## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> Hahahah!!! You didn’t ! For reals ....**** yeah!


And it makes a big difference. Im not sure if the doors full of sound absorbtion is good or not. I kinda did 3 huge things at once and never stopped to test if anything was causing issues or not. 

Basically did two full door rebuilds. Made a shotty but new center console and a full melamine dash mat in like 5 days. Competition this weekend. Im not going to win cuz..i never win lol but i get to show off horns :3

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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> And it makes a big difference. Im not sure if the doors full of sound absorbtion is good or not. I kinda did 3 huge things at once and never stopped to test if anything was causing issues or not.
> 
> Basically did two full door rebuilds. Made a shotty but new center console and a full melamine dash mat in like 5 days. Competition this weekend. Im not going to win cuz..i never win lol but i get to show off horns :3
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk



What if you do man.


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## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> What if you do man.


Ive heard thr competition around me. They kill it..also..no ebrake so no amateur class

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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Ive heard thr competition around me. They kill it..also..no ebrake so no amateur class
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk




I’ve gone just to watch a few shows and listen to cars and most of the stuff out there isn’t that great honestly there are a few that are pretty good there’s always one or two people that have a pretty good set up but in overall sound quality dude I think you might actually do well 



I’m not sure if Install integrity will gain you a lot of points LOL but do it


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## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> I’ve gone just to watch a few shows and listen to cars and most of the stuff out there isn’t that great honestly there are a few that are pretty good there’s always one or two people that have a pretty good set up but in overall sound quality dude I think you might actually do well
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I 100% agree. Ive heard like 2 cars better than mine. Mattkim(on here) is phenomenal and another guy here, cept stage is **** but his tonality is insanely realistic.

But ya. People's cars in comp are generally **** 

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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> I 100% agree. Ive heard like 2 cars better than mine. Mattkim(on here) is phenomenal and another guy here, cept stage is **** but his tonality is insanely realistic.
> 
> But ya. People's cars in comp are generally ****
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


I’ll let you in on a little secret 

Don’t use any TA at all no Dirac live nothing 

Than use a single eq for left and right (not multiple eqs)

Than make the response as flat as you can possibly make it (1/3oactave eq is nice for this) using only cuts in eq and the tonality will be “insane realism “

It’s a wierd effect I’ve tested so many times , and it always works out like that. Imaging sucks tho. That’s the primary reason I strive for kicks and low PLd


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## Jscoyne2

So went to the comp. Got 3rd of like 9-10 people. Didnt get a trophy tho  Judges told me my t/a was definitely off and to bring my highs up a little. I have a high shelf filter at 1k and up thats about -3db down. I just dont like my highs to be as loud as others. It was really funny because the judge gets in my car, sees the horrendous dash mat, the cut out carpeted center console, the weird doors, the whole weird ass car i have and told me "i sat in it and was like oh boy. This isn't good but then..i was very pleasantly surprised." HURRA! Haha. At like 2 min of judging in, he got out of the car and i was like uhh... and he asked me if i wanted to remove the paper judging card that i had on the dash. So i did and after he told me that he had no idea where my highs were coming from because he couldnt see tweeters anywhere. I told him i had horns and he was like ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. He asked me to move the card because he thought maybe the highs were coming from there.

I talked to a few people about horns there. Its kinda funny how everyone goes silent with their advice when you talk about Hlcd drivers. They are like yeaa, thats a whole nother beast. i have nothing to say. ALTHOUGH, there was a guy there. I forget his name but he was telling me he was Erics first customer. He was a Arc Audio rep and gave me some really good advice all around. It was the first time i got to talk to someone who had a tremendous amount of knowledge and was willing to share. 



I do feel like Dirac might bring my stage down a little. I am not sure. My horns playing by themselves have a stage height at like dead ontop of the dash. Like where the dash mat is. But the Mb8s playing by themselves stage 6-8in higher. When they are both playing. You can't really tell the height difference but its there if you really listen and im sure it messes with depth to some degree.

To be fair though, i was tearing into the car allll week and had all of 1 night to tune it so i wasn't super happy with where it was. I basically rebuilt the doors, installed horns, made a brand new dash, got Dirac hooked up, made enclosures/cut into the far all within a 3 week period. Just every day non stop. So i didn't really get the ability to try 1 thing, see if it helps. i massively changed my entire car and drivers. So idk if the dash mat or door absorption panels are helping or not. Ill be spending the next month or so listening for changes as i change those around.

Im a little on the fence with Dirac and how it does T/a. If i do a quick 5 driver sweep and get Dirac T/a settings, then input those and rematrix it for a 3 channel L/R/ and sub. I get it just wildly off T/a. It adds like 1s to my right side and like 2.5ms to my sub. Its just awkward. I think im going to try and do the per driver dirac instead and listen to it for a few weeks. 

If i do a pre eq and have no dirac and test for L, LC, C, Rc, R with multiple tracks like pink noise with locations, piano with locations, guitar with locations. I only have to add 1ms to the left drivers to get a dead center image. 

Also i think i need to rebuild the kicks. I REALLY flush mounted those kicks in as far as i could but i think i made the enclosure too small so they arent venting to the hole behind them. Close field measurements show some atrocious issues. 


Im gonna get some measurements tomorrow with waterfalls and distortion plots and post it. See what you think.


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## slvrtsunami

I wonder if you realize just at what 'level' you are operating at here... true DIY. Thanks for sharing your trials and tribulations. 

Are the reflections THAT bad without the dash mat?


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## Jscoyne2

slvrtsunami said:


> I wonder if you realize just at what 'level' you are operating at here... true DIY. Thanks for sharing your trials and tribulations.
> 
> Are the reflections THAT bad without the dash mat?


Idk if the dash mat is helping or not I know when i was running a 3 way cone set up. Adding a dash mat just helped that fatigue or listening at high levels and it took the edge off of some frequencies. It wasnt a huge thing, but it did help.

To put it simply. I Just dont know if having absorption in the car is good or not. I wasn't really able to get a straight answer from people and research. So its something im trying to test but not really doing it in a very smart way. Too much too fast.

Il post my measurements of my tiny enclosure and just how badly it messed up the FR.


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## Jscoyne2

No eq, no crossovers, no dirac. Took 1in from the front of the cone. Gross. Im gonna rebuild one with alot more breathing room. See if that helps


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## slvrtsunami

What is the bandwidth of the drivers?


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## Jscoyne2

slvrtsunami said:


> What is the bandwidth of the drivers?


Im not entirely but prob 60-2k sure.









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## slvrtsunami

have you considered modeling the 8's in an enclosure? It looks like they like very small sealed enclosures best. just a thought.


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## slvrtsunami

OK, so the drivers actually model well in a .25 sealed enclosure, I think if you can manage that, it will help with the two massive peaks. 
I also find it interesting the difference between the left and right within the 2k - 3k region.


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## Jscoyne2

slvrtsunami said:


> OK, so the drivers actually model well in a .25 sealed enclosure, I think if you can manage that, it will help with the two massive peaks.
> 
> I also find it interesting the difference between the left and right within the 2k - 3k region.


So i did an out of car measurement where i mounted the driver in the enclosure and sat it on a desk standing vertical outside. So it'd have the same IB set up behind it. Then did a nearfield measurement.

I had to adjust levels in Rew so they were similar but you can Def see its the enclosure causing the issues and not the breathing room behind it.

Red is inside and mounted in car. Nearfield.

Blue is outside of car and set up Ib.









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## slvrtsunami

fascinating, there goes my theory!!


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## Eric Stevens

Brian Mitchell was the guy from ARC Audio. We go way back.

For the midbass, I have found the lower the Q of the system (more IB) the better in everyway. Also absorbtion and difraction behind the driver is as important if not more important than difraction and absorbtion in the listening area.

Peaks and dips are the environment


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## Jscoyne2

I think i may have done those measurements with my headunit eq on. Would explain some things. I need to retest. Leaving this here as a reminder to do so.

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## Jscoyne2

Eric Stevens said:


> Brian Mitchell was the guy from ARC Audio. We go way back.
> 
> 
> 
> For the midbass, I have found the lower the Q of the system (more IB) the better in everyway. Also absorbtion and difraction behind the driver is as important if not more important than difraction and absorbtion in the listening area.
> 
> 
> 
> Peaks and dips are the environment


Behind the driver is very little sheet metal and almost a complete vent to the outside...how does one treat that.

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## Eric Stevens

Jscoyne2 said:


> Behind the driver is very little sheet metal and almost a complete vent to the outside...how does one treat that.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk



Non hardening clay and high desnity fiberglass mat, if there is little surface are to reflect back not much needs to be done.


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## oabeieo

Eric Stevens said:


> Brian Mitchell was the guy from ARC Audio. We go way back.
> 
> For the midbass, I have found the lower the Q of the system (more IB) the better in everyway. Also absorbtion and difraction behind the driver is as important if not more important than difraction and absorbtion in the listening area.
> 
> Peaks and dips are the environment




That is truly something worth thinking about.

It’s much more than a blanket statement. What’s going on behind the driver? .

I like it! So much to think about and how it contributes to the end result. 


I forgot about modeling clay! Yes it’s brilliant it works so good.


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## Jscoyne2

So i rebuilt my right side enclosure and made it wayyy bigger because i thought maybe i was choking the driver but apparently...i was wrong. That was a lot of wasted glass but atleast i got an answer.

Blue is large enclosure. Red is smaller one. I had to guestimate level matching via rew but i think im right. The 315 and 1250k large differences i believe is due to me having my eq on the headunit for the small enclosure so u can ignore that.

Below are pics of the two different enclosures.






























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## Jscoyne2

slvrtsunami said:


> fascinating, there goes my theory!!


Tested.

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## slvrtsunami

So the blue line is the larger enclosure, without any EQ applied?


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## Jscoyne2

slvrtsunami said:


> So the blue line is the larger enclosure, without any EQ applied?


Ya

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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> So i rebuilt my right side enclosure and made it wayyy bigger because i thought maybe i was choking the driver but apparently...i was wrong. That was a lot of wasted glass but atleast i got an answer.
> 
> Blue is large enclosure. Red is smaller one. I had to guestimate level matching via rew but i think im right. The 315 and 1250k large differences i believe is due to me having my eq on the headunit for the small enclosure so u can ignore that.
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Your getting good at this ****
See a year ago you had a lot of good questions now your doin it like a boss 
Right on! I wish I had the time you must have to play.


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## oabeieo

I’ve got one of the best tunes I’ve had in awhile now.

And I think I know what I like. 

I like an extremely strong center that is up high and far back and pin point clear and intelligible. Above all else that is what I like a super strong vocal that just doesn’t quit or give up. 

Than 2nd would be a smooth integration where no part of left or right are too strong. 

I think I’ve come to the conclusion that 48db slopes are the way to go with horns 
And 8s in kicks. I like how 24db and 12db play the horn down into the midrange 
But if I’m completely honest with myself and listen to the music and stop thinking about trying to get the horn to go lower or be more dynamic at the end of the day 48db slopes are just better and tune better. 

Weather it be a overlapping filter or a standard LR alignment, the fast attenuation makes it so much easier to get the horn and 8 to work perfectly together. They have such different dispersion and so obviously you want to pick a cross point that compliments both. I’ve found 1.4khz on full size And 1.6khz on minis to work good for me. But I know that will be different on different size and shaped dash and cars. 

If your running DL try using a LR8 and on the midbass make it complimentary so it also has a LR8 on the HP side of the 8


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## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> I’ve got one of the best tunes I’ve had in awhile now.
> 
> 
> 
> And I think I know what I like.
> 
> 
> 
> I like an extremely strong center that is up high and far back and pin point clear and intelligible. Above all else that is what I like a super strong vocal that just doesn’t quit or give up.
> 
> 
> 
> Than 2nd would be a smooth integration where no part of left or right are too strong.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I’ve come to the conclusion that 48db slopes are the way to go with horns
> 
> And 8s in kicks. I like how 24db and 12db play the horn down into the midrange
> 
> But if I’m completely honest with myself and listen to the music and stop thinking about trying to get the horn to go lower or be more dynamic at the end of the day 48db slopes are just better and tune better.
> 
> 
> 
> Weather it be a overlapping filter or a standard LR alignment, the fast attenuation makes it so much easier to get the horn and 8 to work perfectly together. They have such different dispersion and so obviously you want to pick a cross point that compliments both. I’ve found 1.4khz on full size And 1.6khz on minis to work good for me. But I know that will be different on different size and shaped dash and cars.
> 
> 
> 
> If your running DL try using a LR8 and on the midbass make it complimentary so it also has a LR8 on the HP side of the 8


Will do

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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Will do
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk



Read this also

Excellent white paper 

http://users.spa.aalto.fi/mak/PUB/JAES_V57_6_PG413.pdf


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## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> Read this also
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent white paper
> 
> 
> 
> http://users.spa.aalto.fi/mak/PUB/JAES_V57_6_PG413.pdf


Skimmed through it. This constant headache today isn't helping but what i gathered. Normal crossover exhibit predictable group delay but crossovers that are FIR are really complicated and with a car environment, may actually be just fine to use if subjectively good. 

Dirac wise. We're not using it for crossovers. Unless you're using it for crossovers and having a ddrc24 do the full left and right. 

Curious though. If one was using the 8x12 for crossovers with steep filters. Like giving each driver a curve to follow that had a 48db hpf and lpf. It may only be viable for high midrange and up because taps would be used quickly to make a 20hz hpf. 

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Skimmed through it. This constant headache today isn't helping but what i gathered. Normal crossover exhibit predictable group delay but crossovers that are FIR are really complicated and with a car environment, may actually be just fine to use if subjectively good.
> 
> Dirac wise. We're not using it for crossovers. Unless you're using it for crossovers and having a ddrc24 do the full left and right.
> 
> Curious though. If one was using the 8x12 for crossovers with steep filters. Like giving each driver a curve to follow that had a 48db hpf and lpf. It may only be viable for high midrange and up because taps would be used quickly to make a 20hz hpf.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk




Your thinking is the way I understand it as well. Yeah, 
So I was talking 48db slopes on the highpass of 8” to keep it complimentary, and it has two reasons. 

Reason 1 the kicks will horn load in footwell and some 160-250hz Range will want to be much louder on the outsides near the glass, so your left ear and the passengers right ear will be dominated by this. Normal eq wont work right here 

Dirac can solve it, however using steep slopes on the HPF on the 8 will help keep that off axis energy to go forward. (It’s so wierd how that works) 

The lowpass on the 8 find the frequency up high (between 800-2k) that your stage rises because the 8” is playing instead of the horn) go to just that frequency area and cross the 8 right there with 48db slopes 

The horn either do a overlapping and maybe a LR4 at 1200 if you want to hear it play lower (take 6db out of the overlapping area with eq) or keep it a 8th order 
Up to you (I like it both ways) 

I just really like how licks with 8s work with 8th order slopes for multiple reasons. 

Your kicks point up tho, so I don’t think your going to have the horn loading issue from footwell near as much , but your also taking a loss from the loading in the low end. Which may or may not be bad, depending on how it loads. I’m sure you have found how it works best, you sit pretty close to the floor I think your aiming is good, and the footwell isn’t super deep in a Camry.


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## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> Read this also
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent white paper
> 
> 
> 
> http://users.spa.aalto.fi/mak/PUB/JAES_V57_6_PG413.pdf


So ive done some testing today and something is weird. My stage is perfect from left. Left center. Center. And then right of center and Right are stuck like center of the glove department. 

If i play no other speaker but my right horn. My stage is dead center. When i add my left horn. It only gets louder but is dead center.



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## slvrtsunami

Its funny you say that, I am also in the process of starting to tune my Focus, and yes, on the seven drum strike track, the right center and far right 'crowd' to the right and simply do not extend.


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## Eric Stevens

Jscoyne2 said:


> So ive done some testing today and something is weird. My stage is perfect from left. Left center. Center. And then right of center and Right are stuck like center of the glove department.
> 
> If i play no other speaker but my right horn. My stage is dead center. When i add my left horn. It only gets louder but is dead center.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE
> 
> My first thought is early reflections. Get a thick fluffy towel and cover reflective surfaces to test.


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## Jscoyne2

Eric Stevens said:


> Jscoyne2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So ive done some testing today and something is weird. My stage is perfect from left. Left center. Center. And then right of center and Right are stuck like center of the glove department.
> 
> 
> 
> If i play no other speaker but my right horn. My stage is dead center. When i add my left horn. It only gets louder but is dead center.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> 
> My first thought is early reflections. Get a thick fluffy towel and cover reflective surfaces to test.
> 
> 
> 
> Tries with and without thick foam in doors. No change. Ill try center dash
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


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## Eric Stevens

The doors arent a concern, it wsould be thedash and center console for an early reflection.

Also I wouldnt rule out something in the signal chain, usually if there is a problem of width its on the drivers side or near side, not the far side. I suggest remove the rca for left channels at input at the amp or even disconect the amp output. and retest


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## Jscoyne2

Eric Stevens said:


> The doors arent a concern, it wsould be thedash and center console for an early reflection.
> 
> 
> 
> Also I wouldnt rule out something in the signal chain, usually if there is a problem of width its on the drivers side or near side, not the far side. I suggest remove the rca for left channels at input at the amp or even disconect the amp output. and retest


How does the signal affect width?

Do you have any kind of visual representation of how your horns propagate sound? 

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## Eric Stevens

Jscoyne2 said:


> How does the signal affect width?
> 
> Do you have any kind of visual representation of how your horns propagate sound?
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


If you something connected wrong or reversed, a setting incorrect or some other issue causing the problem.

This is not a normal problem, normally if the stage doesnt extend full left or right it is to the near side not the far side. So with a not so normal problem you need to look for not so normal issues.

Dispersion of the horn is very controlled from left to right with the strongest axis down the centerline of the 2 axis flare which is towards the opposite seat, off axis towards the door they have little to no output. vertical dispersion is very wide over 90 degrees even at very high frequency


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## Jscoyne2

Can't seem to figure out the right side being highly compressed. Addressed all the reflections i can think of. Oh well. Still sounds good.

Also im sitting in my own passenger seat as someone else drives and while not centered. It still sounds really good

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## Horsemanwill

have you tried switching drivers to see if it is the driver itself?


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## Jscoyne2

Horsemanwill said:


> have you tried switching drivers to see if it is the driver itself?


I knew someone was going to say that. It should be a dispersion pattern issue and not a FR issue. Especially since its being taken care of by Dirac. Dispersion is the same as both horns are the same guide. I literally have no idea whats causing it

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## Horsemanwill

i know sometimes when the horns have some issues it can be because of stuff in the voice coil. so i thought maybe just swapping drivers and not bodies or wiring to see if the sound stays on that side or moves.


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## Eric Stevens

Most wierd problems that are hard to pin down or explain have a simple cause thats pretty easily fixed. I usuall diagnose using very low tech methods and get a large bath towel or multiple towels and place them where a reflection could come from that would move the stage/images and listen for improvement in real time.


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## Eric Stevens

It is possilbe to be signal based so do check the basics from source to amp output


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## slvrtsunami

Eric Stevens said:


> It is possilbe to be signal based so do check the basics from source to amp output


Reminds me of the auto sound 2000 tech briefs..


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## Calaboose

Try getting driver back side if possible.


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## Jscoyne2

Calaboose said:


> Try getting driver back side if possible.


What

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## slvrtsunami

Jscoyne2 said:


> What
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


I think they meant to push back the driver side horn to somehow "equalize" it? Other than that, it doesn't make much sense.


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## Holmz

Jscoyne2 said:


> What


Or they are suggesting a game of grab-ass.?

(Which may be refered to as a Caboose.)


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## oabeieo

Maybe too much delay 

Have you tried adding maybe .25ms delay to right or take out maybe .25ms from left ?

Is it at all volumes? Or is it only when at low volumes? (Maybe some compression on one side 1:4 -30dbfs is a good start if only moves up high in volume


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## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> Maybe too much delay
> 
> 
> 
> Have you tried adding maybe .25ms delay to right or take out maybe .25ms from left ?
> 
> 
> 
> Is it at all volumes? Or is it only when at low volumes? (Maybe some compression on one side 1:4 -30dbfs is a good start if only moves up high in volume


Even if just the right horn is on with nothing else and it has no eq and a 1200hz crossover and towels and acoustic foam anywhere there would be a reflection. The far right side is like 6in from the center. I haven't tried testing the signal but considering the far right midbass are just fine..i doubt its the signal but I'll prob get around to testing it

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## oabeieo

When I read about the right horn on only stage is dead center 
And turning left on only make it louder. 

That sounds to me almost like normal horn dispersion. That’s the point. Have a center that normally wouldn’t be there in the HF 


Are you playing a signal that has a center and hard left and hard right simultaneously? 

Like the iasca track with the 3 voices 

(1voice on left , one voice on right and one voice in center) 

Get that track and try it. If just playing music most of the time everything is going to sound in the center.. that’s the point. But you should definitely have left and right at the pillars at least or farther like almost the sides (if using door woofers) 

With kicks n horns it should be at the pillars. Little hard to go wider with kicks


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## slvrtsunami

oabeieo said:


> When I read about the right horn on only stage is dead center
> And turning left on only make it louder.
> 
> That sounds to me almost like normal horn dispersion. That’s the point. Have a center that normally wouldn’t be there in the HF
> 
> 
> Are you playing a signal that has a center and hard left and hard right simultaneously?
> 
> Like the iasca track with the 3 voices
> 
> (1voice on left , one voice on right and one voice in center)
> 
> Get that track and try it. If just playing music most of the time everything is going to sound in the center.. that’s the point. But you should definitely have left and right at the pillars at least or farther like almost the sides (if using door woofers)
> 
> With kicks n horns it should be at the pillars. Little hard to go wider with kicks


wasnt that the 1995 IASCA cd?


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## oabeieo

slvrtsunami said:


> wasnt that the 1995 IASCA cd?


95,98,01 for sure because I own them 
But I think all of them have that track one way or another or a way to determine 
The boundaries of the soundstage


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## Jscoyne2

I didn't put a grill on the driver side speaker because im the only one who drives it...and i let brother drive it once.

Once. 

God dammit.









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## slvrtsunami

I feel your pain.. that simply sucks!! Are those JBL's?


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## Jscoyne2

slvrtsunami said:


> I feel your pain.. that simply sucks!! Are those JBL's?


No. The Eric Steven mb8

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## slvrtsunami

Jscoyne2 said:


> No. The Eric Steven mb8
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


recone or replace?


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## Jscoyne2

slvrtsunami said:


> recone or replace?


Its "only" a $100 driver so I'll just replace it.

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## Jscoyne2

Eric Stevens said:


> It is possilbe to be signal based so do check the basics from source to amp output


The cone/surround is wrecked but do you want the motor back for any reason?

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## slvrtsunami

I see.


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## Jscoyne2

slvrtsunami said:


> I see.


Hows your set up? Get it dialed yet? Are you running Dirac?

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## slvrtsunami

Ni Dirac, just the DSP in the DEH-PRS80. The tuning is always in flux as still trying to simply find uninterrupted time to sit and do it. The auto EQ was a joke as it does not recognize the bandwidth capability of the HLCD's. Recently, I noticed some noise coming out of the Gladius for the horns. Not happy.


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## Jscoyne2

slvrtsunami said:


> Ni Dirac, just the DSP in the DEH-PRS80. The tuning is always in flux as still trying to simply find uninterrupted time to sit and do it. The auto EQ was a joke as it does not recognize the bandwidth capability of the HLCD's. Recently, I noticed some noise coming out of the Gladius for the horns. Not happy.


I assume the gladius is the amp?

Looked at your BL. Okay yea. Its the amp.

Horns being so sensitive makes noise really shine unfortunately. 

It may not be the Best idea but i have a minidsp 2x4 you can try. They are prone to being a little noisy but if it works out for you. You can throw me some cash($40). If it doesn't, you can just send it back. No worries. 

I have all the software for it too.
Its a 6band peq per output. 






miniDSP 2x4


The miniDSP 2x4 in a box is a flexible pocket size DSP processor with 2 x analog IN, 4 x analog OUT. Combined with a plug-in software for programming, one can configure the on board Audio processing filters real time from a PC or Mac environment. Once the board configured, the device operates...




www.minidsp.com





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## slvrtsunami

Jscoyne2 said:


> I assume the gladius is the amp?
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


Sorry, yes, old school ZED amp, a brick but such a nice sounding amp. great power supply and balanced sound.


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## Luis Rivera

Hey Eric just a quick question that's been bugging me if music that we listen to thru horns or regular speakers in the kicks are mix with left and right music info to go to the left ear and the right ear would I benefit us if we flip the whole right side of our speakers to the left and vise versa to shorten the pathlength to our ears or it won't work, just curious if it would work the way I think that since music info is processed with left and right and and flipping it would shorten pathlength by maybe 4inches, I could be wrong ,please reply or anyone


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## oabeieo

Luis Rivera said:


> Hey Eric just a quick question that's been bugging me if music that we listen to thru horns or regular speakers in the kicks are mix with left and right music info to go to the left ear and the right ear would I benefit us if we flip the whole right side of our speakers to the left and vise versa to shorten the pathlength to our ears or it won't work, just curious if it would work the way I think that since music info is processed with left and right and and flipping it would shorten pathlength by maybe 4inches, I could be wrong ,please reply or anyone


Not sure if your joking or not , but simply flipping the left and right rcas would simply cause the stage to be backwards , but noting else . You would still hear everything acoustically the exact same. 

If a drum track is left by flipping it the drum would come out of the right , the path length differences remain

Horns minimize path length differences due to there shape and dispersion. The horns themselves are physically the same speaker on left and right and mounting them in the inverse of each other. So I don’t think so.

Don’t care to elaborate much on this , google is your friend at this point


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## Luis Rivera

oabeieo said:


> Not sure if your joking or not , but simply flipping the left and right rcas would simply cause the stage to be backwards , but noting else . You would still hear everything acoustically the exact same.
> 
> If a drum track is left by flipping it the drum would come out of the right , the path length differences remain
> 
> Horns minimize path length differences due to there shape and dispersion. The horns themselves are physically the same speaker on left and right and mounting them in the inverse of each other. So I don’t think so.
> 
> Don’t care to elaborate much on this , google is your friend at this point


Thanks for the quick reply I felt stupid even asking that question but it was for a idiot friend who thinks about dumb thing and he asked me to write it because he wanted to know the answer ,so I showed him your reply called him a dumbass and went home, so sorry he made me feel dumb for like 15 minutes, my question was you put 2 pairs 6.5in in your doors for midbass would it benefit me if I can use my rear deck and front doors for midbass, in kicks a hopefully I can find some budget horns to start out with and what would you recommend for the crossover points for it ,a 97 Chrysler cirrus 6c9 rear deck ,6.5im door ,and got 3.5in in dash corners. This time this is my question, thanks again


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## oabeieo

YEs absolutely it will work, and will work even better if you have TA and eq 

Just make sure y


Luis Rivera said:


> Thanks for the quick reply I felt stupid even asking that question but it was for a idiot friend who thinks about dumb thing and he asked me to write it because he wanted to know the answer ,so I showed him your reply called him a dumbass and went home, so sorry he made me feel dumb for like 15 minutes, my question was you put 2 pairs 6.5in in your doors for midbass would it benefit me if I can use my rear deck and front doors for midbass, in kicks a hopefully I can find some budget horns to start out with and what would you recommend for the crossover points for it ,a 97 Chrysler cirrus 6c9 rear deck ,6.5im door ,and got 3.5in in dash corners. This time this is my question, thanks again


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## slvrtsunami

@jcoyne2 any updates?


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## Jscoyne2

slvrtsunami said:


> @jcoyne2 any updates?


Replaced the broken speaker, but otherwise no. I think im done modifying this car. I've been hard on her and shes not happy. I need to get a better job and get a new whip.

Thinking like a Scion Tc or similar and if i do that, ive got Big ideas for a total dash build, competition show car.

But you can probably think of this thread as concluded.

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## slvrtsunami

ok then, thanks for the info. Good luck on the new whip!


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## Eric Stevens

path ength difference is goi g to affect arrival time and amplitude which both have a significant effect on placement of images in a sound stage. if you move everything closer together you will get a stronger center but lose width of stage its all related


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## Jscoyne2

Its allll coming out. Got a new whip.


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## slvrtsunami

so what is the new whip? total dash rebuild?


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## Jscoyne2

slvrtsunami said:


> so what is the new whip? total dash rebuild?


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## Jscoyne2

Scion tc 2011. I know there is a build log on here about deadening a TC. (kpopsucks) and he was right to do it. The car is loud as ****kkkk to drive. But its a 6 speed and its super fun. Im VERY hesitant to do anything wild with this car and its so damn beautiful. I don't wanna cut up the interior.

For now i am going to leave it stock and drive it for a while. Make sure its reliable and i didn't buy a lemon. When i'm comfortable with it. Most likely still gonna run horns but we'll see. it depends on how much stuff i'd have to rewire/relocate. If its alot. I'll most likely end up with a normal cone system. The doors in these are absolutely perfect for a 3 way system.


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## Jscoyne2

The car itself is like one big lego. i can seriously pull half the dash apart with my bare hands. Its all clips. I've looked at a few youtube vids on how to remove the dash and it looks like i could quite easily take off about half the dash top and built an enclosure there. 

Im also CONSIDERING taking one of my IB15s and venting it through the tire well but thats a very big maybe. Im concerned about going through the trouble of deadening/sound absorption/mlv the whole car and then cutting a giant hole in the floor where sound could come through. I didn't really have issues with the Camry and the large holes in the kicks there. If the speaker wasnt in and i drove. It was glaringly obvious there was holes in my floor but with the speaker/enclosures in. I couldn't specify a road noise direction. The car itself was super loud anyway though so who knows. 

If all goes to plan and i get the guts. What ill most likely do is a horns under dash, Midbass in door(sigh), a shallow mount sub in the dash(Sundown SD-3) and an IB3-15 in the tire well for them lows.


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