# Any new info on the AudioFrog DSP from CES 2016?



## -Kyle- (Feb 5, 2009)

Here is the article I'm referring to. I searched around the forms and saw Andy said "not any time soon" when asked about this in 2016. Wondering if this is a product still in development, if there's an updated time frame for this or something similar from AF, etc. 

Thanks


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Been waiting for this myself...
Ideally, just the DSP (without the built-in amplifier).

No news yet.


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

There have been a few lucky people (choosen by Andy) that are currently testing some prototypes of the DSP for over the past year or so.


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## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

The most recent mention of it from Andy that I know of is here:



GotFrogs said:


> Audiofrog's Multiseat Stereo, which is based on the Penteo upmixer and reworked a bit for automotive works this way. Center is only COMMON information. The sides and the rears are NOT a differential signal, so there are no annoying artifacts from the sides and the rears. Controls exist in the tuning panel to allow you to spread the intermediate (left of center and right of center) out toward the left and right and also toward the sides. Another set of controls allow you to spread the differential information (left only info and right only info) toward the sides and the rears. Used with some additional delay, this can create a better sense of width, depth and ambience.
> 
> Since phase isn't used to extract the center and isn't used to split the stereo signal into intermediate and differential info, there's no frequency response coloration. The bass remains punchy and impactful. Setting the system up so it works in both front seats and the back seats too is much simpler than trying to do that with all pass filters. It's actually about as easy and about as straightforward as setting up a basic 2-channel stereo. No left and right delays are necessary and the frequency response between left and right doesn't have to be as precisely matched.
> 
> Yes, one of these days, it'll be available. We're working on hardware now. And yes, just like Julian's algorithm, it won't run on a basic DSP that you find in most processors. We're putting it on a SHARC.


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## -Kyle- (Feb 5, 2009)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> The most recent mention of it from Andy that I know of is here:


Lots of good info in that thread, thanks. Hopefully its not too long :worried:


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Sounds tasty


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## locoface (Nov 9, 2016)

Most likely next year from what I heard.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Price is gonna be nasty.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Price is gonna be nasty.


Don't care... I want one.


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Working on it. Took me 18 months to find the right people to build it. Currently drawing the UI, upmixer code is being ported to ADI SHARC...


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

GotFrogs said:


> Working on it. Took me 18 months to find the right people to build it. Currently drawing the UI, upmixer code is being ported to ADI SHARC...


:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

If at all possible, please, please make the UI/program window Scale-able for different screen resolutions. 

Windows PC & Mac OS X?
iOS?
Android?
Too many questions? 

Thanks for keeping this dream alive for us! 

Cheers


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

My recommendation is to make it URL based, in the browser..... so it would work on anything, any phone, any laptop...and will work years form now without having to find some old software and run it on an old supported phone\OS from years gone by.


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

bbfoto said:


> If at all possible, please, please make the UI/program window Scale-able for different screen resolutions.


Such a simple request!! I don't think any of the DSP I have used are scaleable, and it is really bloody annoying.


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

Hopefully we'll be able to hear this installed in a few cars at the shows next year on the east coast.


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

juiceweazel said:


> Hopefully we'll be able to hear this installed in a few cars at the shows next year on the east coast.


Heard it in one about 6 months ago now in MD, moving from driver to passenger seat it sounds just as good.


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

naiku said:


> Heard it in one about 6 months ago now in MD, moving from driver to passenger seat it sounds just as good.


I'm not sure how that is even possible but it's obviously way over my head. As long as the UI is good & the price is reasonable this will be a home run.


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## edub13 (Jun 19, 2015)

juiceweazel said:


> I'm not sure how that is even possible but it's obviously way over my head. As long as the UI is good & the price is reasonable this will be a home run.


There was an sqology podcast with Andy a while back where upmixing and multi position voodoo were discussed. It was very informative. The whole dang conversation was pretty great. Absolutely worth a listen.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

juiceweazel said:


> I'm not sure how that is even possible but it's obviously way over my head. As long as the UI is good & *the price is reasonable this will be a home run.*


We should start a game guessing the cost of this unit. I'll start! $2500


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

Angrywhopper said:


> We should start a game guessing the cost of this unit. I'll start! $2500


Hmmm MS8 had an MSRP of $799, Helix DSP Pro MK2 was $999, I would guess this is going to be in the region of $1200. Much higher than that I think you end up pricing out too many customers, of what is already a pretty small overall market anyway. 

No real clue though, but I think $2,500 is going to be about $1,000 too high.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

naiku said:


> Hmmm MS8 had an MSRP of $799, Helix DSP Pro MK2 was $999, I would guess this is going to be in the region of $1200. Much higher than that I think you end up pricing out too many customers, of what is already a pretty small overall market anyway.
> 
> No real clue though, but I think $2,500 is going to be about $1,000 too high.


Audison Bit One HD is $1700.
Mosconi 8to12 Aerospace is $1500.

The Audiofrog piece will do much more than both those units. The development costs must be crazy high. It has to be $2000+.


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

Based on those prices you may well be right, I was basing my guess on the last multiseat processor and the current "favorite" How many people are running those the Mosconi and the Audison vs the Helix DSP Pro? I could be wrong but I bet the Helix outnumbers them by quite a margin. 

I do also realize that the AF DSP will offer far more than both of those units, so a higher price is entirely possible. But, how many people here tune for both front seats? or even run rear fill? I would hesitate to say even 25% run rear fill. I am not trying to take anything away from the AF unit, from my limited demo with one it is a great piece of hardware. 

Hell for all I know Andy only wants to sell a dozen or so just to prove what can be done and the price is going to be the least of his concerns.


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

Angrywhopper said:


> Audison Bit One HD is $1700.
> Mosconi 8to12 Aerospace is $1500.
> 
> The Audiofrog piece will do much more than both those units. The development costs must be crazy high. It has to be $2000+.


Might do more but as said above, he can't price himself out of the market. Looking at his other offerings, I'd like to throw a wild guess in the $1,500-$1,750 range.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

So, this was posted on Insta today


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## -Kyle- (Feb 5, 2009)

dcfis said:


> So, this was posted on Insta today


Thanks for sharing! I want a full AF build for my next install


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

naiku said:


> I do also realize that the AF DSP will offer far more than both of those units, so a higher price is entirely possible. But, how many people here tune for both front seats? or even run rear fill? I would hesitate to say even 25% run rear fill.


I would play devil’s advocate and ask “how many people don’t tune for both front seats or use rear fill because it’s impractical to do so without a sufficiently powerful processor without the proper upmix software”? How many more people might run a center, or rear fill, or both, if they could do so and and get reliable, superior results without needing to relearn how to tune. 

I for one, am looking forward to the day when I can take a car with a center channel and drop in factory replacement speakers, a surround processor, and get excellent sonic results in both front seats. I may not require it, or even use it, 95% of the time, but it’s great to have it for when you want it.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Will these units be stand-alone DSPs, or will they have built-in amplification like the one in Andy's demo Mercedes?


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## Jlugo360 (Mar 6, 2017)

I don’t know if its gonna be a amplifier + DSP version like 4 or 6 channel and a stand alone DSP version but it would be nice if the DSP version had just a center channel amplification for those who already have their setups and just want to upgrade the DSP to be able to add a center channel “Hint Hint @Andy” Lol


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Hey Guys,
We're still working on this. Took me a long time to find the right hardware and software team to do the product(s). Working on the UI now. They're working on hardware. 

It's going to happen...these are long and difficult projects.


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## lv_v (Aug 24, 2005)

Looking like a 2018 launch? I need to make a DSP decision soon.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

GotFrogs said:


> Hey Guys,
> We're still working on this. Took me a long time to find the right hardware and software team to do the product(s). Working on the UI now. They're working on hardware.
> 
> It's going to happen...these are long and difficult projects.


Thanks for the update, Andy. No worries, take your time and do it right! :thumbsup: All I can say is that people & potential customers REALLY APPRECIATE honest and timely UPDATES...even if you have to deliver bad news. You'll still get jumped on just the same, but timely updates build consumer confidence and earn respect.

I remember giving you a ton of **** in your mega MS-8 thread back in the day for the many long delays with the MS-8 release. :blush: Sorry!!! I'm a bit older now and understand how difficult it is to design, develop, produce, and bring these types of specialty products to market. 

Good on 'ya. A slow and steady pace...

Cheers

P.S. My only request would be for a universal Web Browser-based control/adjustment interface...everyone has access to one and it doesn't matter if you're a Mac, PC, Linux, iOS or Android guy or gal. And if done right, there should be no issues with scaling to fit a particular screen resolution...of which there are many on ALL types of devices.  Good hardware might as well be just a useless clay brick without a good UI and software. I know that you get it, just sayin'.


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

bbfoto said:


> P.S. My only request would be for a universal Web Browser-based control/adjustment interface...everyone has access to one and it doesn't matter if you're a Mac, PC, Linux, iOS or Android guy or gal. And if done right, there should be no issues with scaling to fit a particular screen resolution...of which there are many on ALL types of devices.  Good hardware might as well be just a useless clay brick without a good UI and software. I know that you get it, just sayin'.


Not going to happen. The screen rescaling is a GIANT hurdle, firstly. Second, tuning a serious DSP is not going to be made more convenient by making an app that works on a phone. I understand the inclination to think that because it's always in your pocket, it's the best tool for everything, but it isn't.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

GotFrogs said:


> Not going to happen. The screen rescaling is a GIANT hurdle, firstly. Second, tuning a serious DSP is not going to be made more convenient by making an app that works on a phone. I understand the inclination to think that because it's always in your pocket, it's the best tool for everything, but it isn't.


No worries. I don't think _anyone_ would want to attempt doing a full "tune" using a tiny smartphone screen, and that certainly wasn't my intent or desire in requesting a Browser-based interface. The main point is that Web Browsers are OS agnostic.

Even on all types of "larger" GUI display devices, there are a still a VAST range of Screen Resolutions available, from tablets to notebook/laptop computers to desktop monitors, and this continues to change with each new device that is released and/or updated. This would apply to standard "windowed" programs or apps on these devices in addition to a Browser-based program these devices.

What display resolution have you settled on for the DSP's GUI? I would only ask that you test your software on as many different "probable" devices as you can. And I believe there are graphic development software available that will allow you to design your GUI for the highest expected screen resolution, and it will then automatically create "downscaled" versions of all of the graphic elements to the lower screen resolutions of your choice, much like converting a 24/96 audio file to 16/44, etc.

Oh, and weren't Giant Hurdles made to be overcome?   I kid. I know this stuff really ain't easy, and software/GUI development is among the most difficult. It's really important though, as the GUI _alone_ will determine how usable (or not) this type product is for the vast majority of users. I don't envy you in this regard AT ALL. :blush:

I'm just glad that you are actually working on it! THANKS!


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## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

GotFrogs said:


> Not going to happen. The screen rescaling is a GIANT hurdle, firstly. Second, tuning a serious DSP is not going to be made more convenient by making an app that works on a phone. I understand the inclination to think that because it's always in your pocket, it's the best tool for everything, but it isn't.


any more info on this you can share? this dsp is what i have been waiting for while.


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

optimaprime said:


> any more info on this you can share? this dsp is what i have been waiting for while.


I think we all share the same feeling.
If you are in the market for a DSP very soon I personally wouldn't wait too long considering there hasn't been a release date.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Well, I did finally hear a car with one of these audiofrog upmixers in it (in gary biggs car). Wow. Just wow. First and only car that I have heard that truly does 2 seat not only well, but it sounds as good as a 1 seat car, even with the, uh, interesting factory locations of a BMW and the smaller than optimal center channel speaker 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

My understanding is that AF is not going to produce this DSP. It is in permanent beta testing. Biggs' car is amazing, what Nick said is right. That car is downright incredible. We can just hope that another manufacturer picks up where Andy left off.


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## CBS13WRX (Mar 5, 2013)

Andy said just recently that he was working on a UI for something.


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## mtxpert (Sep 29, 2016)

I need one of these in my life! Andy get to it!


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> Well, I did finally hear a car with one of these audiofrog upmixers in it (in gary biggs car). Wow. Just wow. First and only car that I have heard that truly does 2 seat not only well, but it sounds as good as a 1 seat car, even with the, uh, interesting factory locations of a BMW and the smaller than optimal center channel speaker
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


Do the settings have to be changed from 2 seat to 1 seat or does it always image that well? Reason I ask is awhile back Andy claimed it sounded as good in any of the 4 seats and that led me to believe there were no settings to be adjusted.


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## aholland1198 (Oct 7, 2009)

juiceweazel said:


> Do the settings have to be changed from 2 seat to 1 seat or does it always image that well? Reason I ask is awhile back Andy claimed it sounded as good in any of the 4 seats and that led me to believe there were no settings to be adjusted.




It doesn’t need multiple presets. It’s pretty amazing what it does. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

aholland1198 said:


> It doesn’t need multiple presets. It’s pretty amazing what it does.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That would be amazing. Not a clue how that's even possible but then again that's why I don't run an audio company :laugh:


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## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> Well, I did finally hear a car with one of these audiofrog upmixers in it (in gary biggs car). Wow. Just wow. First and only car that I have heard that truly does 2 seat not only well, but it sounds as good as a 1 seat car, even with the, uh, interesting factory locations of a BMW and the smaller than optimal center channel speaker
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


i hit you up on ol Instagram about mini helix. let me know when you have them. it hold me over tell audiofrog dsp drops. garys carr is exactly what i am after in my truck.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

optimaprime said:


> i hit you up on ol Instagram about mini helix. let me know when you have them. it hold me over tell audiofrog dsp drops. garys carr is exactly what i am after in my truck.


Yup, I have two at the shop right now (that are reserved for installs) but can order more. Did you get the message with my number to text?

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> Yup, I have two at the shop right now (that are reserved for installs) but can order more. Did you get the message with my number to text?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


ill jump on and check it out!!!!


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

optimaprime said:


> garys carr is exactly what i am after in my truck.


Isn't most everybody :laugh:


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## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

juiceweazel said:


> Isn't most everybody :laugh:




Wellll could be maybeeeee anybody got pics or article about his car ? I can't find **** on it


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

optimaprime said:


> Wellll could be maybeeeee anybody got pics or article about his car ? I can't find **** on it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So there were some brief video of his truck on one of 5-Star Car Audio's videos at Knowledgefest in Dallas a couple weekends ago.

Start at 22:05 minutes in of this video.





They showed/stated he had:

AudioFrog MultiSeat Stereo processor & AudioControl DM810 (DSP) & 3 x LC4.800's and 1 x LC1.1500 (amps), 2x AudioFrog GB12D2's in infinite baffle, also mentioned 3-way front, with center channel, rears, etc...


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## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

metanium said:


> So there were some brief video of his truck on one of 5-Star Car Audio's videos at Knowledgefest in Dallas a couple weekends ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks sick sub IB setup!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

metanium said:


> So there were some brief video of his truck on one of 5-Star Car Audio's videos at Knowledgefest in Dallas a couple weekends ago.
> 
> Start at 22:05 minutes in of this video.
> 
> ...


DM-RTA - It's not bit tune ha ha ha

Why then need for the Audiocontrol processor & the Frog processor??


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

I haven't watched the vid but the A C may be a line driver.

Curious question to all tho. Im confident that Andy understands what the industry or hobby lover needs in a dsp but how mamy are expecting this to be a revolutionary dsp? The highest line of helix is imo the top end of what parametric can accomplish and the APL/Dirac is amazing in the IIR/FIR realm. 

What all else is there possible

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Jscoyne2 said:


> What all else is there possible


I don't know the Helix but, my guess is upmixing. Or at least I hope AudioFrog's has upmixer for center channel and etc.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

juiceweazel said:


> DM-RTA - It's not bit tune ha ha ha
> 
> Why then need for the Audiocontrol processor & the Frog processor??


I don't know Gary's car, but the Audiofrog processor is likely handling the upmixing from 2 channel to 5.1 and the DM810 is handling the remainder of the processing (crossovers for 3-way components, time aligning drivers being fed by the same channel from the AF, etc).


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Is 5.1 really necessary. Isn't 99% of music in stereo anyway?

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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Is 5.1 really necessary. Isn't 99% of music in stereo anyway?
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


As I understand it, upmixing is the entire point of the prototype Audiofrog DSP. Andy is probably the biggest proponent in the industry for 2 seat (plus) tuning. The easiest way to achieve this (especially if you aren't willing to get crazy with the install) is to run an upmixer with a center channel.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Is 5.1 really necessary. Isn't 99% of music in stereo anyway?


In my opinion, if you like a wide soundstage and a sense of ambiance then 5.1 is a very helpful tool.

Personally I have had an upmixer since the 1980s and I highly doubt that I will ever have another system without one.


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

If it hasn't been mentioned; listen to the SQology podcast episodes with Andy on them. He has a 2 part that he discusses a LOT of stuff.


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## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

The real exciting part is that AudioFrog will be using a form of the Penteo upmixer wich is able to upmix stereo to multichannel without any artifacts or distortions that can occur with Dolby or DTS upmixers


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

rton20s said:


> I don't know Gary's car, but the Audiofrog processor is likely handling the upmixing from 2 channel to 5.1 and the DM810 is handling the remainder of the processing (crossovers for 3-way components, time aligning drivers being fed by the same channel from the AF, etc).


This is exactly how the AF upmixer and AC DM810 are being utilized.


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Jscoyne2 said:


> Is 5.1 really necessary. Isn't 99% of music in stereo anyway?
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


Necessary? No. Unbelievably realistic listening experience from any seat in a vehicle? Heck yes!

I got an extensive demo of Andy’s Mercedes Benz at KnowledgeFest 2 years ago. Staging was basically perfect from either front seat AND either rear seat. Simply unbelievable.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> The real exciting part is that AudioFrog will be using a form of the Penteo upmixer wich is able to upmix stereo to multichannel without any artifacts or distortions that can occur with Dolby or DTS upmixers


All upmixers are prone to weirdness, some are just more susceptible than others. 

Some discussion here:

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...iscussion/210570-five-channel-soundstage.html

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...-you-think-your-fake-multichannel-stereo.html

I've been listening to music and podcasts through Lexicon Logic 7 (Harman) for about six years now. I also had Dolby PLII going for a while at home.

I've heard the Penteo upmixing in Gary's car, in fact I think it was Gary Summers that connected Andy with them.

Some random observations:

1) In Gary's car, the difference between stereo and five channel felt like a bit of a 'toss up.' Basically on some recording 5.1 sounded really great, but on other recordings I preferred stereo. But honestly, that's a real endorsement of Penteo, because Gary's car has been exceptionally well optimized, and getting 5.1 to image as well as stereo, in an optimized seat, is a challenge.

Here's what I mean by that: the whole point of 5.1 is to create a setup where there's less of a 'sweet spot.' But if you have the luxury of optimizing things for a single point in the room, I'd argue that you can generally get more 'pinpoint' imaging. So the fact that Penteo is competitive with that, it's impressive.

2) Honest to God, Dolby PLII is pretty darn good. I know it's a million years old, but Jim Fosgate really poured a lot of work into that. In every interview I've seen with him, he's always been far more interested in discussing upsampling than amplifiers.

3) Though I listen to Logic 7 every week, I *do* notice artifacts occasionally. Maybe even more than PL II. For instance, I was listening to a Radiohead track today, and the upmixer dropped the ball, it was putting the vocals into all three front channels instead of sending them to the center only.

Personally, I have two cars. One is five channel. The other is two channel. I've generally been able to create a more compelling soundstage with two channel. Not a night and day difference, two channel just seems a bit more 'pinpoint.' With five channel, the sound is more "enveloping."

Obviously, if you want a two-seat car, 5.1 is a no-brainer.


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## Focused4door (Aug 15, 2015)

The difference to me between PLII and Logic 7 isn't worth getting to excited about, but when I heard a Penteo demo it was like a "shut up and take my money" kind of moment.

If you ever have the opportunity to hear a Penteo demo, it is well worth the time spent. Unless you want to save money, then skip it.


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## Lushai (Sep 2, 2018)

The real exciting part is that AudioFrog will be using a form of the Penteo upmixer wich is able to upmix stereo to multichannel without any artifacts or distortions that can occur with Dolby or DTS upmixers


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## partsman540 (Sep 6, 2017)

Will you be able to do this without rear fill speakers, only using a front stage?


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

GotFrogs said:


> Not going to happen. The screen rescaling is a GIANT hurdle, firstly. *Second, tuning a serious DSP is not going to be made more convenient by making an app that works on a phone. I understand the inclination to think that because it's always in your pocket, it's the best tool for everything, but it isn't.*


Not sayin' it would be ideal, but it doesn't seem to be too difficult if the app is designed well...






It would be even easier on an iPad, iPad Mini, or any number of cheap Android Tablets.

Please include built-in *Apt-X HD* Bluetooth music streaming. I'm using this almost exclusively for everyday driving/listening, and I'm pretty sure that 90% of the general driving population is using Bluetooth streaming for Hands-Free calls and music streaming.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Yea i thought that statement was a lil silly but whatevs. I think the bigger deal is always having communication with multiple devices that have ever changing OS. Think about how limited the 360.3 was with only Blackberry available.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

partsman540 said:


> Will you be able to do this without rear fill speakers, only using a front stage?


Assuming that you're asking if an upmixer is beneficial if you just run frontstage? Yes! The rear and side channels are for width and depth to be augmented, but even without those it'll still mix the Left-Center-Right front channels to produce a killer 2-seat tune.


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## partsman540 (Sep 6, 2017)

metanium said:


> Assuming that you're asking if an upmixer is beneficial if you just run frontstage? Yes! The rear and side channels are for width and depth to be augmented, but even without those it'll still mix the Left-Center-Right front channels to produce a killer 2-seat tune.


Yes, that is exactly what I was asking! Thanks for the info. I’ll definitely be keeping an eye out for this DSP!

Thanks,


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## Focused4door (Aug 15, 2015)

bbfoto said:


> Not sayin' it would be ideal, but it doesn't seem to be too difficult if the app is designed well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Designing an app well takes lots of development, test, debug, and test time. Doing it for every browser or screen out there grows the delivery date and cost. People seriously underestimate the amount of time and effort that kind of thing takes to do well. You also have to take into account what a small percentage of potential customers some of those may be as well.


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## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

Yes. I’ll simply take a proper modern day upmixer primarily orientated for a multi seat tune. No need for any more features than that for now. Let get this thing released sooner than later.

Revisions and added features can always come down the line.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Focused4door said:


> Designing an app well takes lots of development, test, debug, and test time. Doing it for every browser or screen out there grows the delivery date and cost. People seriously underestimate the amount of time and effort that kind of thing takes to do well. You also have to take into account what a small percentage of potential customers some of those may be as well.


Just sayin'... look at history, man. Great software and apps become ubiquitous and industry standards. Anything that falls short, is mediocre, or is just plain horrible gets left in the dust and forgotten.

If your device relies on software or apps to operate, you can't afford not to do it right if you want your product to be successful in the long term. And EVERYTHING is going MOBILE. Even Laptops are dinosaurs these days in the mobile computing realm unless you really need to do processing- or graphics-intensive work.

I know that it's taken ZAPCO a LONG TIME to develop their app, but they are a smallish company as well. However, I think they understand the importance of it after all of their investment in this DSP lineup.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

You guys should continue to beat this dead horse. I'm sure it will prove useful.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> Just sayin'... look at history, man. Great software and apps become ubiquitous and industry standards. Anything that falls short, is mediocre, or is just plain horrible gets left in the dust and forgotten.
> 
> If your device relies on software or apps to operate, you can't afford not to do it right if you want your product to be successful in the long term. And EVERYTHING is going MOBILE. Even Laptops are dinosaurs these days in the mobile computing realm unless you really need to do processing- or graphics-intensive work.
> 
> I know that it's taken ZAPCO a LONG TIME to develop their app, but they are a smallish company as well. However, I think they understand the importance of it after all of their investment in this DSP lineup.



Isn't the Helix the most used processor in the marketplace? I dont think they have an app for tuning do they?


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

chefhow said:


> Isn't the Helix the most used processor in the marketplace? I dont think they have an app for tuning do they?


In the entire 12V market? Not a chance. Maybe on this forum, which is a subset of a smaller market within an already small niche industry. Several manufacturers make processors that likely outsell the Helix by orders of magnitude. I’d bet substantial money that the JL Tweak outsells the Helix everyday of the week, at least in the US market. 

That’s not to say that it’s a superior product, or better software, though. Just that it sells more units due to having a greater number of dealers and an overall superior distribution network. Sales numbers in the 12V industry rarely have any realistic correlation to the quality of the product. But, that’s also the case in a lot of other industries. Popularity is largely a function of price point and marketing. It’s simply not a reliable indicator of product quality.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Onyx1136 said:


> In the entire 12V market? Not a chance. Maybe on this forum, which is a subset of a smaller market within an already small niche industry. Several manufacturers make processors that likely outsell the Helix by orders of magnitude. I’d bet substantial money that the JL Tweak outsells the Helix everyday of the week, at least in the US market.
> 
> That’s not to say that it’s a superior product, or better software, though. Just that it sells more units due to having a greater number of dealers and an overall superior distribution network. Sales numbers in the 12V industry rarely have any realistic correlation to the quality of the product. But, that’s also the case in a lot of other industries. Popularity is largely a function of price point and marketing. It’s simply not a reliable indicator of product quality.



While the TwK may sell more I would be willing to bet you that fewer of those users actually use the TwK or even know how to use the TwK then Helix users. Installers install, set and hand off the keys to the owners and their new systems without ever showing them how to use the unit even if it has an app attached to it.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

chefhow said:


> While the TwK may sell more I would be willing to bet you that fewer of those users actually use the TwK or even know how to use the TwK then Helix users. Installers install, set and hand off the keys to the owners and their new systems without ever showing them how to use the unit even if it has an app attached to it.


I would be willing to bet *most* customers don't want to learn about their new TwK DSP. There is a reason they paid a professional for products and installations. They want to jump in and listen to their music, that's it. This forum is an extremely small portion of the greater car audio industry. Just something to keep in mind..


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

chefhow said:


> While the TwK may sell more I would be willing to bet you that fewer of those users actually use the TwK or even know how to use the TwK then Helix users. Installers install, set and hand off the keys to the owners and their new systems without ever showing them how to use the unit even if it has an app attached to it.


The thing is, when you asked your question you didn’t specify anything about the end user learning to use the software. You only asked, “Isn’t the Helix the most used processor in the marketplace?” And the answer is unequivocally, no. Next time, if you mean to have qualifying criteria applied to the answer, perhaps you should consider supplying that criteria for consideration when you ask the question. Even then, I’d be willing to bet that more people on this forum own processors other than the Helix, but that’s just an assumption on my part, and there’s no real way to know for sure. 

And just so we’re on the same page, I was very clear when I stated that popularity of a product, which in this context would be defined as gross unit sales, DOES NOT equal being a better product or having superior software. I’m perfectly comfortable stipulating that the Helix is superior to the JL Twk, in several ways.


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## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

Onyx1136 said:


> And just so we’re on the same page, I was very clear when I stated that popularity of a product, which in this context would be defined as gross unit sales, DOES NOT equal being a better product or having superior software. I’m perfectly comfortable stipulating that the Helix is superior to the JL Twk, in several ways.



You mean Bose isn't the best?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Angrywhopper said:


> I would be willing to bet *most* customers don't want to learn about their new TwK DSP. There is a reason they paid a professional for products and installations. They want to jump in and listen to their music, that's it. This forum is an extremely small portion of the greater car audio industry. Just something to keep in mind..


I agree with this statement. My problem is finding someone in my city that knows how (or wants) to tune a DSP.

They all want to sell products and even install most equipment but, I guess customer's don't pay as well for tuning or the installers don't know how to do it well.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

KillerBox said:


> I agree with this statement. My problem is finding someone in my city that knows how (or wants) to tune a DSP.
> 
> They all want to sell products and even install most equipment but, I guess customer's don't pay as well for tuning or the installers don't know how to do it well.


Tuning isn't easy. Thats why competition is heavily based on tune ad not so much install.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Tuning isn't easy.


And that is why Auto Tune DSPs are so appealing to me. I never have much time off from work. When I do get off work, I would rather be listening to my system and not playing with system!


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## mumbles (Jul 26, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> I agree with this statement. My problem is finding someone in my city that knows how (or wants) to tune a DSP.
> 
> They all want to sell products and even install most equipment but, I guess customer's don't pay as well for tuning or the installers don't know how to do it well.


It's about a 4 hour drive for you, but there is a GTG in Hayden on Nov 9th the a group of us will be at... should be some folks that know how to tune there and you're welcome to join us!

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...yma/402433-central-north-al-gtg-nov-10-a.html


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Onyx1136 said:


> The thing is, when you asked your question you didn’t specify anything about the end user learning to use the software. You only asked, “Isn’t the Helix the most used processor in the marketplace?” And the answer is unequivocally, no. Next time, if you mean to have qualifying criteria applied to the answer, perhaps you should consider supplying that criteria for consideration when you ask the question. Even then, I’d be willing to bet that more people on this forum own processors other than the Helix, but that’s just an assumption on my part, and there’s no real way to know for sure.
> 
> And just so we’re on the same page, I was very clear when I stated that popularity of a product, which in this context would be defined as gross unit sales, DOES NOT equal being a better product or having superior software. I’m perfectly comfortable stipulating that the Helix is superior to the JL Twk, in several ways.




So now to have a meaningful discussion with you I have to bring data?
Just as an FYI meaningful discussion left DiYMA a long time ago..... Have a great day.


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## RVA_LVER (Apr 28, 2016)

jimmydee said:


> Don't care... I want one.




Ditto 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

chefhow said:


> Isn't the Helix the most used processor in the marketplace?


Nope. Not even close. Audison


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> Nope. Not even close. Audison


Surprising

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Surprising
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


not really to be honest. They have a solid distribution network in the US and had the first "modern" dsp in the car audio market and most installers dont like change. They have been using the same product for almost 15 years and arent comfortable switching.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> Nope. Not even close. Audison


Now that is interesting. As a shop owner Nick you contend that a "high end boutique" brand like Audison and the Bit products are outselling the Twk and FiX which I am now told is the best selling DSP, at least the TwK is(I dont want to misquote but that is what I got from the comment).


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

chefhow said:


> Now that is interesting. As a shop owner Nick you contend that a "high end boutique" brand like Audison and the Bit products are outselling the Twk and FiX which I am now told is the best selling DSP, at least the TwK is(I dont want to misquote but that is what I got from the comment).


The twk very well might be outselling the bit products by now. And good for them, because at least the twk and fix are good products lol

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

audison is huge in the UK.


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## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

i got play with bit one with friend when i lived in wichita ks, his had noise, software stunk and had other issues. maybe it was just his .


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## mrichard89 (Sep 29, 2016)

Any updates on the Audiofrog unit?


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## -Kyle- (Feb 5, 2009)

mrichard89 said:


> Any updates on the Audiofrog unit?


I haven't seen anything new, been trying to keep my eye on CES


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

-Kyle- said:


> I haven't seen anything new, been trying to keep my eye on CES


Andy isn't even displaying at CES (or in a hotel adjacent to CES) this year. Your best bet is to follow the Audiofrog Enthusiasts page on FB. I believe Andy posted a few weeks ago about the upmixer. It is probably still going to be a while.


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## locoface (Nov 9, 2016)

Good things take a good deal of time to develop, y'all need to relax.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

locoface said:


> Good things take a good deal of time to develop, y'all need to relax.


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## locoface (Nov 9, 2016)

rton20s said:


>


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

locoface said:


> Good things take a good deal of time to develop, y'all need to relax.


Yep. Hell, the ms8 took something like 7 or 8 years from start of planning to release 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> Yep. Hell, the ms8 took something like 7 or 8 years from start of planning to release
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


With slightly more resources.


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Headed to see the DSP guys in a couple of weeks. Should see the upmixer running on a SHARC. This is taking a long time because the development team is small and their primary business is OE amplifiers for MUCH larger customers. I'll post to the Audiofrog Enthusiasts page.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

GotFrogs said:


> Headed to see the DSP guys in a couple of weeks. Should see the upmixer running on a SHARC. This is taking a long time because the development team is small and their primary business is OE amplifiers for MUCH larger customers. I'll post to the Audiofrog Enthusiasts page.


Thanks, Andy. Really appreciate the updates, especially for those of us who don't follow along on Facebook.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

bbfoto said:


> Thanks, Andy. Really appreciate the updates, especially for those of us who don't follow along on Facebook.


I wouldn't worry about it too much. Anything about anything that gets posted here or there always ends up getting cross posted within a few hours anyway.


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## -Kyle- (Feb 5, 2009)

Any updates? I also don’t have Facebook so not keeping up with the enthusiasts page.


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## rob3980 (Jun 11, 2010)

Yes it will be ready in 2045 lol


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

Keeping an eye on this one... subscribed.


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## alwasl89 (Mar 4, 2020)

any updates about the DSP


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