# Should I add closed cell foam



## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

Hey if anybody can help with their opinion, I have some dynamat on the way for my doors because I am looking for a cleaner sound so should I order some closed cell foam aswell? ₩ill this make a diffirence? If i could i would buy mlv aswell I would but for time being I would like to know if deadener and closed cell will make a diffirence in sound or help with keeping car cooler and quieter. TIA!


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Dynamat ONLY helps to somewhat reduce panel resonance and also makes the door FEEL more solid.

Adding CCF to Dynamat will NOT do anything at all... CCF is meant to reduce sound/vibration transmission BETWEEN the layer of CLD (in your case Dynamat) and MLV. If you are not adding MLV there is NO reason to add layer off CCF.

That being said, you WILL get the most reduction in panel resonance and road noise, with the commensurate increase in listening SQ, by using all three materials in a CLD/CCF/MLV sandwich.

You can learn more about this process here--

https://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/how-to

The products that you might decide to buy from SDS are in fact a little more expensive, and you can buy some of them elsewhere for less, but you can be assured that if you get the from SDS, they are of the highest quality for what you are trying to do-- reduce panel resonance and road/engine noise inside your vehicle in order to create a better listening environment for your SQ system install.

just my .02


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Always

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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> Always
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


Short and to the point, unless he is NOT adding MLV, which is how I interpreted the OP.


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

seafish said:


> Dynamat ONLY helps to somewhat reduce panel resonance and also makes the door FEEL more solid.
> 
> Adding CCF to Dynamat will NOT do anything at all... CCF is meant to reduce sound/vibration transmission BETWEEN the layer of CLD (in your case Dynamat) and MLV. If you are not adding MLV there is NO reason to add layer off CCF.
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking out of your time to answer my question hope you have a great day! ✌


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

Nop no mlv for now


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Why is it that CCF is used and not open so cell foam?
Is that held on with Velcro or layered on with contact cement?


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## Ridgerunner (Jul 23, 2018)

CCF is for liquid resistance. Here is a quick and informative read. 
https://www.cgrproducts.com/open-cell-vs-closed-cell-foam/


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> CCF is for liquid resistance. Here is a quick and informative read.
> https://www.cgrproducts.com/open-cell-vs-closed-cell-foam/


I know what they are, just not the "why"..., as in why use them.

Nor the "how"..., as in the theory of how they work together.


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## Second Skin (Aug 5, 2010)

Holmz said:


> Why is it that CCF is used and not open so cell foam?


Closed Cell Foam does not absorb water, you never want to have a product in your vehicle that absorbs water which can create mildew, mold, and rust issues. 

Melamine Foam is an open cell foam that is used in vehicles, but the high quality companies treat it with a hydrophobic process that makes it resistant to water, chemcials, and mildew. Here is a difference in the two types of Melamine Foam (MF vs HMF)


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## Second Skin (Aug 5, 2010)

Xx1988 said:


> If i could i would buy mlv as well I would but for time being I would like to know if deadener and closed cell will make a difference in sound or help with keeping car cooler and quieter. TIA!


Adding a thin CCF alone is not going to add much difference, but if you are intending on adding MLV later, there you might as well. A thin CCF will not keep your car cooler and more quit, the MLV is what blocks out the noise and you'll need a much denser/thicker CCF for added thermal insulation. 

Check out our DIYMA thread for this weekends sale on Luxury Liner Pro (Dense CCF infused onto MLV)


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Adding CCF even if not adding MLV, may block or reduce air flow coming in as you drive at higher speeds. 

It also serves as a moisture barrier between the door card and the inner door and may also keep heat and cold in the inner and outer door areas


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Second Skin said:


> ...
> Check out our DIYMA thread for this weekends sale on Luxury Liner Pro (Dense CCF infused onto MLV)


I am asking here because your web site did not seem to explain it in any way that could follow... and the phone conversation seemed like I should be knowing what I need, but I am doing a DIY.
Props however, as I can call... whereas the other place does not answer.

So I am basically still confused.

Do I just pop on some dynamat and shove some opencell or MLV on top?
And then why?

I get that the dynamat such vibration out of the metal panel, and I have heard that alone. It is the MLV part is where I am confused.


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## Donanon (Sep 13, 2013)

Holmz said:


> I am asking here because your web site did not seem to explain it in any way that could follow... and the phone conversation seemed like I should be knowing what I need, but I am doing a DIY.
> Props however, as I can call... whereas the other place does not answer.
> 
> So I am basically still confused.
> ...



I did a full treatment on my car (2010 Corolla) and I followed the tutorial here:

https://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/how-to/attaching-mlv-and-ccf-vehicle

The CCF is used to decouple the MLV from the metal of the door allowing the MLV to block the noise. I did my whole car using the SDSD techniques and it is quite tomb like.

D.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Holmz said:


> Why is it that CCF is used and not open so cell foam?
> Is that held on with Velcro or layered on with contact cement?



OCF will be damaged with moisture, it absorbs water, dirt grease and odors. If you find a very high grade quality of open cell foam that won't disintegrate after a few years, it can do the same function of separation decoupling between the door and MLV. MLV needs itto be more effective.

The problem is, ocf is too soft and may totally compress making it useless, and if you put a thick layer it may not compress to a point to allow the door card to fit as it should.


CCF does not absorb or deflect sound, it seals water, it is chemical resistant it is more like a gasket that compresses.




MLV, is a flexible heavy solid material that needs a softer flexible barrier to separate it from a hard surface to prevent noise from transfering between the inner door and card or door panel 

SS offers one where the 2 materials are bonded, it makes it easier and saves time


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## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

MLV (mass loaded vynil) adds a barrier to stop air and noise - think of it like wearing a leather coat. Much like that coat blocks out the wind/air (if one wore it wrapped around ones head i suppose noise too). 

To go with the same analogy though, MLV needs two key install items:
1 - needs to be sealed up best as possible; that leather coat doesn’t work well either if you don’t close/zip it up. 
2 - needs to be physically not touching the thing making noise (this is why the ccf) - again with the coat analogy if you leaned right against something vibrating you would still transfer that vibration. 

CLD (dynamat) tiles work by adding mass to something to thwart vibrations - like a large sheet of relatively flat metal. As most of commented herein, to do well you need to combine all three. 


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Alrojoca said:


> ....
> 
> MLV, is a flexible heavy solid material that needs a softer flexible barrier to separate it from a hard surface to prevent noise from transfering between the inner door and card or door panel
> 
> SS offers one where the 2 materials are bonded, it makes it easier and saves time


I think I get it...
The CCF is low density/low stiffness.
An OCF would do the same if it was the same stiffness.

Both just decouple the MLV from the door?


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Neoprene... my go-to

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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Holmz said:


> I think I get it...
> The CCF is low density/low stiffness.
> An OCF would do the same if it was the same stiffness.
> 
> Both just decouple the MLV from the door?



Many other materials can do the same function, tiny bubble wrap sheets, styrofoam hardwood floor underlayment, you can just use your imagination adding more to the list.

The issue is, relying on a material that is strong, flexible, moisture and chemical resistant while it provides the thickness and just the right compression to fit the door card. 

And living in a area with no rain, or moisture, in mostly mid range temperatures OCF can survive a long time

The neoprene could be ultimate highest quality choice since it is a rubber gel type of foam.

1/8" thickness is the choice for doors, and as long as it compresses close to 50% or a bit more it may work in a lot of doors, keep in mind that every door and door card are different and results may vary.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Listen to what Seafish said, it’s spot on sound advice and SDS has some of the highest quality products and no bull advice. If you use Sound Deadener Showdown CLD tiles, than follow his advice and use only enough to cover between 25-40% of the inner and outer panel. I only treat my vehicles with the CLD tiles (Second Skin is good too) and do not use closed cell foam or Mass loaded vinyl.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

Bayboy said:


> Neoprene... my go-to


+1 - awesome stuff. Yes, alone it can do great things. It can be a decoupler as well as a thermal insulator. It's best as part of a total treatment as many have mentioned, but sure won't hurt anything on its own. I did my current vehicle in stages - CLD, MLV and neoprene at different times and in that order. Neoprene made the biggest difference.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Alrojoca said:


> ...
> 
> 1/8" thickness is the choice for doors, and as long as it compresses close to 50% or a bit more it may work in a lot of doors, keep in mind that every door and door card are different and results may vary.


So do they not go on the metal side?
But rather on the card side?

I don't exactly have a door card, so I will chin scratch.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Holmz said:


> So do they not go on the metal side?
> But rather on the card side?
> 
> I don't exactly have a door card, so I will chin scratch.


No door panel? 

No metal inner door? Just a sheet of metal door? Just CLD will be needed then. 

No door card, no point in adding any foam or MLV. The purpose of MLV is to seal air between the inner metal door and outer door, keeping air and potential noise transferring to the inside of the vehicle or keep most between the door panel the the door.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Alrojoca said:


> No door panel?
> 
> No metal inner door? Just a sheet of metal door? Just CLD will be needed then.
> 
> No door card, no point in adding any foam or MLV. The purpose of MLV is to seal air between the inner metal door and outer door, keeping air and potential noise transferring to the inside of the vehicle or keep most between the door panel the the door.


The door is thin. Maybe 3", and the window is flat, which allows the door to be thin.
There is a plastic "card" over about 1/2 the door, and metal on the bottom half.

So can a whole sandwich be contact cemented? Dynamat on metal // neoprene// MVL?
Seems like the neoprene is too stiff to not be shacking the MLV?
(Especially if it is contact cemented in a layup)

Or am I missing something implied about the door card?
Like is this whole thing supposed to be on the door card side, where the dynamat//neoprene//MLV go?


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I've used 1/8" neoprene in several deadening jobs. Never had an issue with "stiffness". If I'm going to cover panels with as much MLV most do or recommend, I'd like to also get some thermal insulation advantage from it. 

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## OneGun (Jun 15, 2018)

rob feature said:


> +1 - awesome stuff. Yes, alone it can do great things. It can be a decoupler as well as a thermal insulator. It's best as part of a total treatment as many have mentioned, but sure won't hurt anything on its own. I did my current vehicle in stages - CLD, MLV and neoprene at different times and in that order. Neoprene made the biggest difference.


Very interested in neoprene. Can you and/or others comment more on its use, advantages, disadvantages, installation methods, sourcing?


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Holmz said:


> I think I get it...
> The CCF is low density/low stiffness.
> An OCF would do the same if it was the same stiffness.
> 
> Both just decouple the MLV from the door?


Jumping in late but I don't see a direct answer to this post ...

1. Yes, the sole practical purpose of CCF is to serve as a de-coupler between MLV and any hard-panel (resonant surface) it touches on either side. Absent a de-coupler even the very heavy and stiff MLV can _itself_ resonate / directly transmit vibration (sound) of the panels it is in direct contact with at certain frequencies. 

2. When working in the range of 1/8" +/- thickness _no_ resilient foam, whether CCF or OCF, serves a meaningful sound absorbing or sound blocking function. At that thickness resilient foams are all essentially 'transparent' insofar as sound at all frequencies of interest to us in car audio / noise reduction. So, absent MLV and the need for a de-coupler there's usually no practical benefit of installing CCF (or any de-coupler / thin resilient foam).

3. Resilient materials other than CCF can serve the de-coupling function. The reason CCF as opposed to OCF is recommended for most in-car de-coupling applications, especially in doors, is its attractive inherently-non-moisture-absorbing properties even along cut edges. 

4. Obviously moisture related issues (mildew, etc) can be a bear in cars, especially in door cavities, even on the 'supposedly dry-side' of the always imperfect vapor barrier. In high-humidity or 'frequently crossing dew-point' climates it's a concern _even within the car cabin_. In floor applications liquid spills (or AC condensate overflow) can happen - it's just a PITA to dry-out _any_ material that absorbs moisture in its matrix like OCF does but CCF does not.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

OneGun said:


> Very interested in neoprene. Can you and/or others comment more on its use, advantages, disadvantages, installation methods, sourcing?


I'm using it for decoupling and thermal insulation. The 1/16" version let me line both sides of MLV - a thickness I don't think I've seen in any other material suitable for those purposes. It's easy to handle, non-toxic, inert, takes adhesive well. It's pretty reasonably priced too.

Disadvantages? Hard to think of any but it's hard to get back once you stick it somewhere...it'll tear so planning and preparation prior to application is critical.

Methods? Glue it on with spray adhesive. 

https://www.foambymail.com/neoprene-rubber.html


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

1/16" neo on both sides sounds like a great idea! Will have to try that one day. It's surely inexpensive enough.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

You should decide whether or not MLV will eventually be added to the doors. If it's going to be added, I'd recommend holding off on the CCF until you install the MLV - easier to do together than CCF first, then MLV.

CCF alone may reduce rattles between the trim panel and inner door skin. Very little if the trim panel has padding from the factory.

It's best not to glue materials like CCF to the vehicle anywhere, but particularly true for doors. Anytime you need to get into the door for maintenance, you'll have to tear it off and replace it. Wasteful.

True CCF will act as a vapor barrier but not any better than the factory vapor barrier.


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