# spent so much money and my car system sound is awful ( alpine , focal k2power ) help



## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

Hello everyone

I am living in a country where you buy things easily but installing things is a problem as we don't have specialist who have enough training or the talent in installing car systems properly, here its all about money

So far I have spent around 5000 USD changing and replacing HU, amps, speakers and the sound is still bad

I think I might have a decent gear

1- Alpine 134BT car stereo 
2- Focal k2power 165 ( 4 speakers )
3- Rockford prime amp connected to a pioneer subwoofer ( 1400 watts)

Buy Rockford Fosgate Car Audio Amplifiers online at Nexxia Great Prices

4- JBL GX-A604 amp connected to the focal speakers ( GX-A604 - JBL )


Now what I hear is an orchestra of noise, and punches of Mike Tyson from the sub. Piercing high, annoying treble 
Everything is a mess

The alpine has so many settings, the JBL has weird setting, I don't know how to start from or how to set up this whole mess

In the alpine there are bass,mid,treble, HPF, LP, settings, and its confusing how to start my setup, there is something call defeat that turns things down.

I really need your help guys from start to finish. I went to some garages they have no clue what they are doing and I am sick and tired of spending so much money, the gear above I think that I would get a god sound, and with the garage made me replace all my old gear.

Also the focal speakers have some setting in the crossover.

My car is a jeep Cherokee 2004.


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

For a start explain how you have everything hooked up. Speaker locations are where? Mounted to what? Sealed in the door? What settings to you have enabled on the amps? On the head unit?

Basically we'd need more detail.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

JVD240 said:


> For a start explain how you have everything hooked up. Speaker locations are where? Mounted to what? Sealed in the door? What settings to you have enabled on the amps? On the head unit?
> 
> Basically we'd need more detail.


well since I am not that familiar in describing locations of speakers and such, but the speakers are inside where the original sparkers were in the doors. The tweeters in the front are close to the side mirror location. The back tweeters are close to where the speakers are in the back which means locker than in position than the front tweeters.

It will be difficult to explain location of the speakers but they are where the original speakers were placed.

the 4 speakers are connected to the JBL amp as 4 channels 
the subwoofer is connected to the rockford amp

the head unit is totally messed up and I have no clue from where to start, this is why I need your help in setting this up from scratch .


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

If it were me, i would find a way to hit "reset" on the Head unit, and then turn the gains on the amps all the way down. 

Then working from there let people help you set things up correctly.


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

Also... read the manual.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

JVD240 said:


> Also... read the manual.


baby steps


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## ZeblodS (Nov 4, 2009)

Unfortunately, just mounting hi-end parts in the car isn't enough at all to have a good result...

You must make a big effort on the way in which you install the hardware in the car: Door soundproofing, damping and hardening. Tweeter direction. Etc.

And you must make an even bigger effort on the way in which you tune your setup, and you cannot learn exactly how to do this just by reading forums on internet. It comes mostely with many years of experimentations on differents systems...


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

ZeblodS said:


> Unfortunately, just mounting hi-end parts in the car isn't enough at all to have a good result...
> 
> You must make a big effort on the way in which you install the hardware in the car: Door soundproofing, damping and hardening. Tweeter direction. Etc.
> 
> And you must make an even bigger effort on the way in which you tune your setup, and you cannot learn exactly how to do this just by reading forums on internet. It comes mostely with many years of experimentations on differents systems...


can we start we the basics as I know its not a matter of just reading, this is why I am asking for help, I would really appreciate someones help.

I read the manuals but manuals don't tell how to adjust settings


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> can we start we the basics as I know its not a matter of just reading, this is why I am asking for help, I would really appreciate someones help.
> 
> I read the manuals but manuals don't tell how to adjust settings


Of course we can start with the basics...its just going to be up to you to filter out the people telling you that you need a 4 year degree in physics to get good sound from your car

1. you have 2 amps...turn the gains on both too the minimum setting counter clockwise. 
2. Head unit, best thing to do is either reset it, or figure out to set the signal to the JBL amp to High Pass at 90hz, and set the sub out Low pass to 90hz. You also should figure out how to set any bass boost on the Head unit to zero. 

Then at the amps, set the crossover settings on both to full range if possible. And also set all bass boost to off or minimum.

Or vice versa...you can set the Head unit to full range..and make the high and low crossovers at the amps....you just want to try to avoid doing it in both places.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> Of course we can start with the basics...its just going to be up to you to filter out the people telling you that you need a 4 year degree in physics to get good sound from your car
> 
> 1. you have 2 amps...turn the gains on both too the minimum setting counter clockwise.
> 2. Head unit, best thing to do is either reset it, or figure out to set the signal to the JBL amp to High Pass at 90hz, and set the sub out Low pass to 90hz. You also should figure out how to set any bass boost on the Head unit to zero.
> ...


Do you think that its better to keep the LPF and HPF on the amps at minimum and control things from my HU. 

So my rockford which is connected to the pioneer subwoofer shall I keep at its highest frequency which is at 130Hz. And control the LPF from my HU

Can you please look at the link which has a picture of my jbl and tell me what to do with the jbl, the JBL has the 4 speakers connected, as I mainly need help with the JBL a little. Can you please tell what to do here with the screws and the buttons 

http://www.brl.se/sv/artiklar/jbl-gx-a602-2.html

I never tried it this ways to control things from only my HU as I was always messing around with both the HU and amps, and I am tired of pulling out the amps from under my chair and playing with the screws and I get so frustrated that I leave things hanging badly in the middle


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> Do you think that its better to keep the LPF and HPF on the amps at minimum and control things from my HU.
> 
> So my rockford which is connected to the pioneer subwoofer shall I keep at its highest frequency which is at 130Hz. And control the LPF from my HU
> 
> ...


when you say 4 speakers connected to it? Can you elaborate a little? Is it front left and right, and rear left and right? And each channels is powering a mid and a tweeter that are seperated by a passive crossover? 

And are you passing anything thru the the jbl amp to the rockford amp ( or vice versa)? Or is it it getting fed RCA's from the head unit? front and rear RCA's?


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> when you say 4 speakers connected to it? Can you elaborate a little? Is it front left and right, and rear left and right? And each channels is powering a mid and a tweeter that are seperated by a passive crossover?
> 
> Oh boy, ok i see that the 4 speakers that are connected to the jbl are front left and right, and rear left and right. so on the jbl there are 4 rca cables. The 4 speakers have the focal crossover with tweeters for each speaker.
> 
> And are you passing anything thru the the jbl amp to the rockford amp ( or vice versa)? Or is it it getting fed RCA's from the head unit? front and rear RCA's?


 Now here is the question that will make look like an idiot as I don't know the answer to this, all I see it that both amps somehow are connected to each other but not through rca cables but the 2 amps are connected by wires from their back, so as for RCAs on the rockford amp I see only 1 rca cable.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> Now here is the question that will make look like an idiot as I don't know the answer to this, all I see it that both amps somehow are connected to each other but on the rockford amp I see only 1 rca cable.


not an idiot...that probably means that there is a lowpass/passthru from the JBL amp to the rockford amp, and since it is a mono amp they determined that it was OK to run a mono RCA cable. But...that is not always the best way to do things. some amps want to have both RCA cables connected even if they are mono amps.

Got any pictures?

i will work on your JBL settings too...


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> not an idiot...that probably means that there is a lowpass/passthru from the JBL amp to the rockford amp, and since it is a mono amp they determined that it was OK to run a mono RCA cable. But...that is not always the best way to do things. some amps want to have both RCA cables connected even if they are mono amps.
> 
> Got any pictures?
> 
> i will work on your JBL settings too...


man I am so thankful for u as I am in need for someone like you to help me, I can take pictures tomorrow and attach them here. 

On another note, my main problem is with the sound of the speakers not the sub, as its where i find difficulty in setting things. maybe we can focus on the jbl settings and the alpine. What i hate about the jbl is the screws when i turn them they don't show me which frequency i am on


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

any chance you can post some pictures of the amps and their wiring? Maybe a few different angles so we can get a visual understanding of whats going on?


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

theoldguy said:


> any chance you can post some pictures of the amps and their wiring? Maybe a few different angles so we can get a visual understanding of whats going on?


i can do that but do i have to take out the car stereo as taking out the stereo is a bit of a hassle or is it enough to post pics of the wiring on the amps.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

I didnt mean to dissassemble anything. Just take pics of how the amps are currently wired up.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

theoldguy said:


> I didnt mean to dissassemble anything. Just take pics of how the amps are currently wired up.


i will post the pics in 10 minutes


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> man I am so thankful for u as I am in need for someone like you to help me, I can take pictures tomorrow and attach them here.
> 
> On another note, my main problem is with the sound of the speakers not the sub, as its where i find difficulty in setting things. maybe we can focus on the jbl settings and the alpine. What i hate about the jbl is the screws when i turn them they don't show me which frequency i am on


agreed on the set screws for that JBL...its not a great design. You just have to imagine, or put a red dot on the knob someplace for reference.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> agreed on the set screws for that JBL...its not a great design. You just have to imagine, or put a red dot on the knob someplace for reference.


here some pic


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

another pic


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

You mentioned you are using the Alpine 134BT. Are you sure you dont mean the 143BT? If it is the 143BT, you only have 2 sets of RCA outputs. One is for your front speakers, the other for your rear OR sub. Do you know how your JBL is getting its signal? Are there splitters on your Front channel RCAs?

Im wondering if you could run one set of RCAs from the front to channel 1 and 2 of your JBL. Run the rear RCAs to your RF and run a set from the pass through from the RF to channels 3 and 4 of the JBL for your rears while still getting sub signal to the RF? Does anyone else follow that train of thought?


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

theoldguy said:


> You mentioned you are using the Alpine 134BT. Are you sure you dont mean the 143BT? If it is the 143BT, you only have 2 sets of RCA outputs. One is for your front speakers, the other for your rear OR sub. Do you know how your JBL is getting its signal? Are there splitters on your Front channel RCAs?
> 
> Im wondering if you could run one set of RCAs from the front to channel 1 and 2 of your JBL. Run the rear RCAs to your RF and run a set from the pass through from the RF to channels 3 and 4 of the JBL for your rears while still getting sub signal to the RF? Does anyone else follow that train of thought?


its alpine 134bt as its a european version

unfortunately for the part of your comment that i don't know how to answer it as i am not so techie


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I'm surprised nobody mentioned this:

*! DSP !* - If you don't got one I suggest buying one. A DSP with autotune if you don't feel like tuning yourself. Maybe not the answer you wanna hear (buying more stuff) but a DSP will be the biggest improvement in your entire system.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

ok, forget everything I put in my last post. You do have seperate outputs for front, rear, and subwoofer. The way you have your RCAs connected look correct in the pictures. One issue I see right off the bat is that you have your JBL amp set to hi pass. You should have them set to flat (if you want to control your crossover from the HU or just let your passive crossovers do the work). This should liven up your speakers a bit.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> its alpine 134bt as its a european version
> 
> unfortunately for the part of your comment that i don't know how to answer it as i am not so techie


i get what he is saying...but i was hoping to see a picture of the right side of the JBL amp.

the american version looks like this:

Picture 2 of 4 for JBL GT5-A604

so you would have rca inputs from the Head unit using all 4 RCA's for front left and right. And then you would have an output from the JBL ( full range ) to the Rockford sub amp where it would be low passed at 80.

from the pictures i do not see how the rockford amp RCA connected to the JBL amp.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> I'm surprised nobody mentioned this:
> 
> *! DSP !* - If you don't got one I suggest buying one. A DSP with autotune if you don't feel like tuning yourself. Maybe not the answer you wanna hear (buying more stuff) but a DSP will be the biggest improvement in your entire system.


i strongly disagree. I would never suggest anyone buy a DSP until there system already sounds GREAT.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> I'm surprised nobody mentioned this:
> 
> *! DSP !* - If you don't got one I suggest buying one. A DSP with autotune if you don't feel like tuning yourself. Maybe not the answer you wanna hear (buying more stuff) but a DSP will be the biggest improvement in your entire system.


no need for a DSP with the current equipment. Sometimes its best to just keep it simple.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

mini, if you look at the link the OP posted to the amp he is using, it only shows 2 sets of inputs. no pass through.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

theoldguy said:


> ok, forget everything I put in my last post. You do have seperate outputs for front, rear, and subwoofer. The way you have your RCAs connected look correct in the pictures. One issue I see right off the bat is that you have your JBL amp set to hi pass. You should have them set to flat (if you want to control your crossover from the HU or just let your passive crossovers do the work). This should liven up your speakers a bit.


i like the idea to control things from the HU as my amps are below the seat so controlling sound form the head unit its easier, but will give me the best sound better than adjusting the hpfs from the amp instead


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

miniSQ said:


> i strongly disagree. I would never suggest anyone buy a DSP until there system already sounds GREAT.


A system won't sound great without a DSP.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

please see a better pic of the jbl , i noticed that the on my HU the front speakers rca are connected to the rear part on the jbl, and the back speakers rca are connected to the front part on the jbl.
i don't know why the garbage did not put the front speakers on the front on jbl and the rear speakers on the rear part


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

theoldguy said:


> no need for a DSP with the current equipment. Sometimes its best to just keep it simple.


He spent $5000 and he doesn't need a DSP with his current equipment? A DSP should be the primary unit you want to buy if you ever want a good sounding system. I'd never even attempt to build a system without one.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

theoldguy said:


> mini, if you look at the link the OP posted to the amp he is using, it only shows 2 sets of inputs. no pass through.


i saw that but the OP also mentioned the two amps connected by a single RCA so i was hopeing


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

Hanatsu said:


> A system won't sound great without a DSP.


how much does that usually cost and what do u suggest? I am sure here they will not be able to install it as I am facing issues with garages here so I don't know if they will know what it is for, and I myself am not that familiar in installing things re-wire things


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> A system won't sound great without a DSP.


please refrain from making these types of comments, until we sort out the system as is. And for what its worth my system sounds pretty great without a DSP. I bought a Helix DSP and switched out my audio control piece for it, and after a couple of weeks decided that i actually prefered the sound with the audio control piece and sold the Helix


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> i saw that but the OP also mentioned the two amps connected by a single RCA so i was hopeing


i did not know what I was saying, all I know one rca goes to the rockford, and two rca go to the jbl


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> i did not know what I was saying, all I know one rca goes to the rockford, and two rca go to the jbl


no worries....so now we should confirm the layout of the RCA's....

it has been stated that there are only 2 pair of RCA's coming off that HU. And you have 3 pair in the system. So if there are in fact Y connectors being used a the HU, then we should look at that. 

To be brutally honest i would look at replacing that JBL amp long before i looked at DSP. it is not in the same league as those focals are


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> please refrain from making these types of comments, until we sort out the system as is. And for what its worth my system sounds pretty great without a DSP. I bought a Helix DSP and switched out my audio control piece for it, and after a couple of weeks decided that i actually prefered the sound with the audio control piece and sold the Helix


miniSq, I look really forward to your help and I will follow everything you say, kindly please please know from now that I appreciate your help in advance


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> no worries....so now we should confirm the layout of the RCA's....
> 
> it has been stated that there are only 2 pair of RCA's coming off that HU. And you have 3 pair in the system. So if there are in fact Y connectors being used a the HU, then we should look at that.
> 
> To be brutally honest i would look at replacing that JBL amp long before i looked at DSP. it is not in the same league as those focals are


at this point I can not afford to spend more money, and I hate all the garages i went to they sell me crap. I am looking to have just a nice sound, not something bombastic. as for the 3 rca i don't know if there is a Y connector, is it not clear enough from the pics


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

pic of alpine 134bt from the back


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

hykhleif said:


> The alpine has so many settings, the JBL has weird setting, I don't know how to start from or how to set up this whole mess
> 
> In the alpine there are bass,mid,treble, HPF, LP, settings, and its confusing how to start my setup, there is something call defeat that turns things down.
> 
> ...


Ok. Assuming speakers are properly installed the most probable reason your system sounds bad is incorrect settings. If you using passive filters, only use the HighPass (HP) on your amp to the components, set it around 60-80Hz. On your sub amp, set the LowPass (LP) on 50-80Hz. Play with the phase inversion and see what sounds best.

If you want correct tonality and staging, you really need a proper DSP no matter what other people here implies. You are compensating for the environment, left and right side must match to attain a center image (we're talking +/- 10dB swings L/R). You must have T/A (Time compensation) to set arrival times, active crossovers help tremendously as well. If the system sound harsh or whatever, it's an EQ problem 95% of the time. Having Low/Mid/Treble settings is not enough. I recommend channel independent 31-band EQ (which most proper DSPs got). 

But it depends on what you're after. You can get a system to sound "ok" without fancy DSP units but you will never get proper tonality and staging without processing, just don't expect it. But yeah, you should get the system to sound "ok" first before messing with more gear, set levels and crossovers correct first. Your headunit should have both lowpass and highpass settings, if so - disable the crossovers on your amp. You don't need both.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

another pic


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

hykhleif said:


> pic of alpine 134bt from the back


Looks like 3 preouts, then you can cross all speakers actively if you have a 2-way front + sub.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

Hanatsu said:


> Ok. Assuming speakers are properly installed the most probable reason your system sounds bad is incorrect settings. If you using passive filters, only use the HighPass (HP) on your amp to the components, set it around 60-80Hz. On your sub amp, set the LowPass (LP) on 50-80Hz. Play with the phase inversion and see what sounds best.
> 
> If you want correct tonality and staging, you really need a proper DSP no matter what other people here implies. You are compensating for the environment, left and right side must match to attain a center image (we're talking +/- 10dB swings L/R). You must have T/A (Time compensation) to set arrival times, active crossovers help tremendously as well. If the system sound harsh or whatever, it's an EQ problem 95% of the time. Having Low/Mid/Treble settings is not enough. I recommend channel independent 31-band EQ (which most proper DSPs got).
> 
> But it depends on what you're after. You can get a system to sound "ok" without fancy DSP units but you will never get proper tonality and staging without processing, just don't expect it. But yeah, you should get the system to sound "ok" first before messing with more gear, set levels and crossovers correct first. Your headunit should have both lowpass and highpass settings, if so - disable the crossovers on your amp. You don't need both.



i am confused now, shall i set the crossover on the amps, or on the HU. as the alpine has HPF and LPF for the subwoofer.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

miniSQ said:


> please refrain from making these types of comments, until we sort out the system as is. And for what its worth my system sounds pretty great without a DSP. I bought a Helix DSP and switched out my audio control piece for it, and after a couple of weeks decided that i actually prefered the sound with the audio control piece and sold the Helix


Ok. I kind of agree with the "sort things out first" but I really can't comprehend fixing all the issues in a car without a DSP. I've done 30+ installs and it's the first thing I prioritize. This is about compensating for the environment, there's no way around it - all cars needs EQ.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

hykhleif said:


> i am confused now, shall i set the crossover on the amps, or on the HU. as the alpine has HPF and LPF for the subwoofer.


Yes. Either on the HU OR the amps. I prefer doing it on the headunit. You want a LPF on the sub (passes low frequencies). You want HPF on mids (removes low frequencies).


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

miniSQ said:


> To be brutally honest i would look at replacing that JBL amp long before i looked at DSP.


Lol. No way. That amp outputs 170 Wrms in bridged mode. That amp is not the issue here.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

Hanatsu said:


> Yes. Either on the HU OR the amps. I prefer doing it on the headunit. You want a LPF on the sub (passes low frequencies). You want HPF on mids (removes low frequencies).


can you tell more about the jbl as it has 2 hpf as in the pic i posted. one for the rear and one for the front. so if I want to control the sound from the HU, how about the frequency screws, can you tell me in detail where to set them. 

can you in detail talk about the jbl what to do with all the screws and buttons , also what about the rockford screws and frequencies and bass boost and punch, can we take each amp alone what to do with it

minisq I am really looking forward to your input and suggestions how to move on


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> pic of alpine 134bt from the back


good deal...that means you are all set with outputs and RCA cables.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> good deal...that means you are all set with outputs and RCA cables.


minisq so I look forward to your suggestions for setting both amps and HU, kindly please mention in your suggestions all screws and buttons on both amps what to do with them


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

hykhleif said:


> can you tell more about the jbl as it has 2 hpf as in the pic i posted. one for the rear and one for the front. so if I want to control the sound from the HU, how about the frequency screws, can you tell me in detail where to set them.
> 
> can you in detail talk about the jbl what to do with all the screws and buttons , also what about the rockford screws and frequencies and bass boost and punch, can we take each amp alone what to do with it
> 
> minisq I am really looking forward to your input and suggestions how to move on


Are you powering your front components with it? In that case you should bridge it and run it 2ch mode. 

All right. You got Front and Rear "side" of the amp. There are different settings for front and rear, these have nothing to do with each other. It seems like you only got a 80Hz fixed highpass on the front output and a gain control (input sensitivity). On the rear side you got bass boost at a fixed frequency (basically an EQ boost around 40-60Hz), don't use it for now. The switch enables you to choose between lowpass OR bypass (inactive filters) OR highpass. The knob left of the switch set which frequency the highpass OR lowpass filter will be active at, you can set this frequency between 32-320Hz.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> can you tell more about the jbl as it has 2 hpf as in the pic i posted. one for the rear and one for the front. so if I want to control the sound from the HU, how about the frequency screws, can you tell me in detail where to set them.
> 
> can you in detail talk about the jbl what to do with all the screws and buttons , also what about the rockford screws and frequencies and bass boost and punch, can we take each amp alone what to do with it
> 
> minisq I am really looking forward to your input and suggestions how to move on


'

LOL...sorry between doing my day job and keeping up with this thread and trying to ready what the other guy is suggesting you do with DSP's and all i thought it would be best to keep the noise level down. 

Let me look things over later tonight when i get home.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

Hanatsu said:


> Are you powering your front components with it? In that case you should bridge it and run it 2ch mode.
> 
> All right. You got Front and Rear "side" of the amp. There are different settings for front and rear, these have nothing to do with each other. It seems like you only got a 80Hz fixed highpass on the front output and a gain control (input sensitivity). On the rear side you got bass boost at a fixed frequency (basically an EQ boost around 40-60Hz), don't use it for now. The switch enables you to choose between lowpass OR bypass (inactive filters) OR highpass. The knob left of the switch set which frequency the highpass OR lowpass filter will be active at, you can set this frequency between 32-320Hz.


thanks Hanatsu so assuming i want to control things from the Hu so what shall each amp set at with all the screw and buttons , taking in consideration I want to control everything from the HU. 

Minisq I am not in a hurry so I will await your kind reply once you have time for me. also a kind reminder is that I don't know the garage put the front speaker rca on the rear input of the jbl, and the rear speakers on the front input of the jbl.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

hykhleif said:


> i want to control things from the Hu so what shall each amp set at with all the screw and buttons , taking in consideration I want to control everything from the HU.


Highpass 80Hz - OFF
Switch rear side - Flat
Bass boost - OFF
Freq knob - Doesn't matter if the switch is in "flat" mode.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

View attachment 51148


Hanatsu said:


> Highpass 80Hz - OFF
> Switch rear side - Flat
> Bass boost - OFF
> Freq knob - Doesn't matter if the switch is in "flat" mode.


what about the rockford amp frequency , bass boost and bass punch can you into the details here too


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> Highpass 80Hz - OFF
> Switch rear side - Flat
> Bass boost - OFF
> Freq knob - Doesn't matter if the switch is in "flat" mode.


plus i would turn both front and rear gains fully counter clockwise.

I agree, if the HU has controls for separate front and high pass, plus sub low pass and level control i would set the JBL amp as Hanatsu suggests.

Reason i want to set the gains to the minimum, is i want to see at what point the Head unit volume control can play to before becoming too loud and distorted. 

And if you are happy with your sub out put, i would disconnect the RCA's going to the rockford amp and just listen to the front speakers...fading your HU forward so the rear focals are just adding some fill. ( about 70% forward )

The goal here is to make the front focals sound as good as you can without letting the rear or subs interfere.

Does the focal passive crossover have any level controls for the tweeter? set it to -3db if it does.

Also make sure all your EQ settings on the HU are set to flat...


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

Is your car dirty or did they give you the filthiest wire they can find?


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> View attachment 51148
> 
> 
> what about the rockford amp frequency , bass boost and bass punch can you into the details here too


FREQ 80 HZ...bass boost and bass punch off.

But i would like to hear what you think of just the front speakers...per my previous post so i want the sub amp RCA's disconnected...or at least the gains turned all the way down.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> plus i would turn both front and rear gains fully counter clockwise.
> 
> I agree, if the HU has controls for separate front and high pass, plus sub low pass and level control i would set the JBL amp as Hanatsu suggests.
> 
> ...


thanks so much for all your help guys please bare with me until i can set this system its now 1 am in the morning here, so I will read your replies once I wake up and apply them.

I assume minisq your instructions are step1 in the process and then we will adjust the gain and the HU am I right so please bare with me until we finish thanks so so much I will continue with your instruction after 7 hours from now


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> thanks so much for all your help guys please bare with me until i can set this system


1. yes...if you can turn your Head unit up past say 80% of its max volume and the front speakers are not loud enough and are not distorting we will allow you to raise your front gains in small increments. Rear gains will hopefully stay at minimum, because rear speakers are fill only. But we may allow you to fade your HU back from 70% forward until you feel the rear is filling in the way you like it.

2. fading your HU forward 70% should only lower the volume of your rear speakers. i would hope your sub stays where it is...it should be fixed and not lower when you fade forward...you can test that to be sure.

3. yes you will get your sub back

4. set the tweeter to -3 and the mid to flat...what is it set at now?

and yes this is step one...the goal is to make your system play as loud as you want it to, but clear and non distorted.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> 1. yes...if you can turn your Head unit up past say 80% of its max volume and the front speakers are not loud enough and are not distorting we will allow you to raise your front gains in small increments. Rear gains will hopefully stay at minimum, because rear speakers are fill only. But we may allow you to fade your HU back from 70% forward until you feel the rear is filling in the way you like it.
> 
> 2. fading your HU forward 70% should only lower the volume of your rear speakers. i would hope your sub stays where it is...it should be fixed and not lower when you fade forward...you can test that to be sure.
> 
> ...


so we will hopefully move on to step 2 in the morning after 7 hours from now, or when you have time the day after due to our time differences, but if you want me to do something else besides these steps I can try to follow your instructions too early in the morning


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> so we will hopefully move on to step 2 in the morning after 7 hours from now, or when you have time the day after due to our time differences, but if you want me to do something else besides these steps I can try to follow your instructions too early in the morning


no worries...then lets just ignore that step for now. How do the tweeters sound to you?


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> 1. yes...if you can turn your Head unit up past say 80% of its max volume and the front speakers are not loud enough and are not distorting we will allow you to raise your front gains in small increments. Rear gains will hopefully stay at minimum, because rear speakers are fill only. But we may allow you to fade your HU back from 70% forward until you feel the rear is filling in the way you like it.
> 
> 2. fading your HU forward 70% should only lower the volume of your rear speakers. i would hope your sub stays where it is...it should be fixed and not lower when you fade forward...you can test that to be sure.
> 
> ...


the thing that I also need help with is setting the mids on my HU as I feel the alpine is a little sharp in mids, so i would like warmer sound, the 3 band eq each have 3 settings, ( Q, frequency, level ) and I have been struggling with the mids a lot


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> no worries...then lets just ignore that step for now. How do the tweeters sound to you?


the tweeter sound fine

Minisq can I continue with you tomorrow morning now here its 1l30 am in the morning so after 7 hours will be too late from your end to continue. As I can not test sound or my neighbours will haunt me 

if not maybe we can chose a time that suits you


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> the thing that I also need help with is setting the mids on my HU as I feel the alpine is a little sharp in mids, so i would like warmer sound, the 3 band eq each have 3 settings, ( Q, frequency, level ) and I have been struggling with the mids a lot


what we are trying to do here is get all the basic settings done first before you adjust your mids. Its too easy to have your subs over powering your whole front speakers or your rears over powering your fronts. over even have some wiring down wrong...and then from there try and use your HU EQ to correct these problems. Or go out and buy a DSP

Best to get everything dialed in properly before you touch any EQ settings. You will be surprised at how little EQ it may take.

Getting a warmer sound is first accomplished by turning the tweeter passive down as much as you can stand it...maybe even to -6db. But thats going to be addressed in step two.

Step one is only designed to get your gains on your amps set properly and get your front rear and subs in balance.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> the tweeter sound fine
> 
> Minisq can I continue with you tomorrow morning now here its 1l30 am in the morning so after 7 hours will be too late from your end to continue. As I can not test sound or my neighbours will haunt me
> 
> if not maybe we can chose a time that suits you



no problem...come back after you have had a chance to play with some of the settings we discussed and report back your findings.

as well others may weigh in and tell me i am full of crap 

Good luck, i will check in tomorrow.


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## GERMANIKS (Dec 7, 2013)

Personally I would start with fixing those power wires. That is seriously dangerous. The ground wire seems to be half the size of the power wire too.
Make all those connections rocks solid, make sure those amps are secured too. Everything looks very lose to me.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

GERMANIKS said:


> Personally I would start with fixing those power wires. That is seriously dangerous. The ground wire seems to be half the size of the power wire too.
> Make all those connections rocks solid, make sure those amps are secured too. Everything looks very lose to me.


Agreed there are issues with the way the power wires are connected. It appears that there is one power wire going into the JBL amp, and then a second wire comes out of the JBL and maybe connects to the rockford amp.

This is not a good solution, especially when it appears that the screw that is holding the power wire in place in the JBl is angled, meaning it is not threaded in properly.

A better solution is to split that wire with a distribution block in a safe location. And run two wires out if it, one into each amplifier.


And yes getting those two amplifiers separated and into the trunk or maybe under one seat each would be a good thing.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> Agreed there are issues with the way the power wires are connected. It appears that there is one power wire going into the JBL amp, and then a second wire comes out of the JBL and maybe connects to the rockford amp.
> 
> This is not a good solution, especially when it appears that the screw that is holding the power wire in place in the JBl is angled, meaning it is not threaded in properly.
> 
> ...


hello minisq, so I followed your instructions now my alpine volume level goes to 35, and it will distort at 33 but not that big distortion, the sound with everything off is kinda flat, that because the sub is also not in the picture anymore. The vocals are clean but as I mentioned simply flat.

What will be our next step


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

edzyy said:


> Is your car dirty or did they give you the filthiest wire they can find?


thanks for the help...#rollingeyes


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> hello minisq, so I followed your instructions now my alpine volume level goes to 35, and it will distort at 33 but not that big distortion, the sound with everything off is kinda flat, that because the sub is also not in the picture anymore. The vocals are clean but as I mentioned simply flat.
> 
> What will be our next step


the gains on both sides of the JBL amp are turned full counter clockwise? 

next thing is to plug the subs back in but turn the gains fully clockwise.

Now you say the max the Head unit will go is 35 right? And you can get it to 33 before you feel it is too loud and you start to hear distortion?

The fader is pushed toward the front correct?

How does the balance between front and rear sound? Is the music mostly coming from in front of you? You should. fade the music back slowly until it the speaker speakers become too noticeable, and then push it forward just a bit.

Now you can turn the gains on just the front side of the JBL amp slightly..in baby steps. The goal is to hit the gain spot on that amp where when you turn your HU up to about 28 ( out of 35 ) the music it loud and clear...no distortion and no desire for the front speakers to be louder.

Then once you get to that point you can slowly (if needed) turn the gain of the rockford amp up until the sub sounds right. If you find you need to turn the gain past say half way...then you may want to go back to your HU and see if there is a subwoofer level control, and move that to say +10 and then go back and readjust the gain on the rockford amp.


At this point you should have pretty decent sounding music and we can move on to the next steps.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> the gains on both sides of the JBL amp are turned full counter clockwise?
> 
> next thing is to plug the subs back in but turn the gains fully clockwise.
> 
> ...


thanks minisq i am printing this now and I will do what you say and come back and report my finding in 30 minutes, but what about the HPF and LPF on my HU shall adjust it now or later, also the bass, mids and treble frequencies are those to adjust later


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

minsq I followed your instructions to the point.

The sound improved alot, and its clear and strong, the only thing we need to address is the warmness of the sound.

I thought about adding a link to the manual of the alpine so that you know what is in the HU, as I am sure now all the magic will now become adjustable from the HU

http://www.google.ps/url?sa=t&rct=j...QPpSMj-TgS6Lu5Xg13sNIug&bvm=bv.61190604,d.ZG4

we are really getting close, I just wish for a more warm full sound, I hope minisq you can look at the alpine manual, I think it has now to with setting the LPF, HPF, and the 3 band frequencies to address the sound signature


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

I am glad you are making forward progress...to adjust for warmness of sound i think the next step is to open the door panels and look at the crossovers if you are up for that.

Sounds like what you are lacking is midbass.

Couple things you can try with the crossover is to lower the tweeter output and raise the midbass output. 

Or if you want to leave the door panels alone and work with the HU we can do that.

Lowering the HP crossover to the front speakers from 80 to 70 can help bring a little more bass to the front. Also cutting the tweeter and mid in the Head unit crossover settings by 3db or so can help warm up the sound.


I Have never heard the focal speakers you have, but generally people describe focal as being crisp and detailed...not warm and full.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

focal speakers can only get so "warm". Their tweeters are always on the bright side (the BE tweets being the exception). I would just stick with what you have and let them break in for a while and see if the sound changes to your liking. Make sure you write down all of your current settings as your baseline so if you ever need to start over, you have something to revert back to.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

theoldguy said:


> focal speakers can only get so "warm". Their tweeters are always on the bright side (the BE tweets being the exception). I would just stick with what you have and let them break in for a while and see if the sound changes to your liking. Make sure you write down all of your current settings as your baseline so if you ever need to start over, you have something to revert back to.


i would like to have him look at the crossovers to verify they are not set to 0db.

-3db or maybe even -6db will do a lot to warm up these speakers.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> i would like to have him look at the crossovers to verify they are not set to 0db.
> 
> -3db or maybe even -6db will do a lot to warm up these speakers.


I will do that tomorrow morning and report back.

But can we address for the HPF and LPF on the HU do you have any suggestions

on alpine : the hpf ranges from 60 to 160
and Lpf ranges from 60 to 160

now I think I just need your input for the following as it has many settings:


*MIDS: *

Setting the Mid Bandwidth (WIDTH (Q)) bandwidth.
WIDE 0.75  MEDIUM 1.00  MEDIUM 1.25  NARROW 1.50
(Initial setting)

 Setting the Mid Centre Frequency (CENTER FRQ)

500 (Hz)  1.0k (Hz) (Initial setting)  1.5k (Hz)  2.5k (Hz)


*BASS: *

Setting the Bass Bandwidth (WIDTH (Q))

WIDE 0.50  MEDIUM 1.00  MEDIUM 1.50 (Initial setting) 
NARROW 2.00

centre frequency.
 Setting the Bass Centre Frequency (CENTER FRQ)

60 (Hz)  80 (Hz)  100 (Hz) (Initial setting)  120 (Hz)


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> I will do that tomorrow morning and report back.
> 
> But can we address for the HPF and LPF on the HU do you have any suggestions
> 
> ...


Headunit...high pass front set to 80hz High pass rears can be higher...say 100hz Low pass on the sub channel should be 80hz as well.

as for your EQ..here is a tutorial to read.

JL Audio » header » Support » Tutorials » Tutorial: Parametric Equalizer


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

miniSQ said:


> i would like to have him look at the crossovers to verify they are not set to 0db.
> 
> -3db or maybe even -6db will do a lot to warm up these speakers.


very true. I usually have my focals set to -6 when using them passively


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## SoundQ SVT (Aug 14, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> A system won't sound great without a DSP.


This is a false statement. Systems most certainly can sound great without DSP. Mine is proof of that, just ask anyone that has listened to it.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

SoundQ SVT said:


> Mine is proof of that, just ask anyone that has listened to it.



lol


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## GERMANIKS (Dec 7, 2013)

Personally I would not recommend crossing mids at 70hz. Depends of the size/specs obviously but trying to get mids to play bass by feeding them with lower frequencies that they have been designed to play at is probably not the best approach.
I would worry about the bass later.
Let set those mids/tweets properly then let's move to the sub.
Usually I adjust mids to around 150hz for a quick setup and quick test then I fine tune.
That would be my approach.


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## GERMANIKS (Dec 7, 2013)

SoundQ SVT said:


> This is a false statement. Systems most certainly can sound great without DSP. Mine is proof of that, just ask anyone that has listened to it.


Yep agreed. That is pretty obvious I think. Obviously with timing and EQ features it will sound even better and give you a deeper musical experience but yeah of course you can get a great sounding system without dsp.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

GERMANIKS said:


> Usually I adjust mids to around 150hz for a quick setup and quick test then I fine tune.
> That would be my approach.


you are saying you play your sub up to 150hz and have the mids take over from there? seems a bit high for a sub to play. Especially when you are trying to achieve "up front" bass. I could see this working if you have a dedicated midbass to accompany the sub and midrange.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

theoldguy said:


> you are saying you play your sub up to 150hz and have the mids take over from there? seems a bit high for a sub to play. Especially when you are trying to achieve "up front" bass. I could see this working if you have a dedicated midbass to accompany the sub and midrange.


thee is no reason to cross a 2 way 6 1/2" component set at 150hz. Agreed that 70hz maybe a little low, but it would work with a steep enough crossover. 80hz would be better.

The way to figure this out is if you can find the T/s parameters of the driver itself. Look for the Fs value and double that. But not all car audio drivers provide this information.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

according to the focal archives, the K2P 165 woofer has an FS of 69Hz


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

theoldguy said:


> according to the focal archives, the K2P 165 woofer has an FS of 69Hz


 what is the F3?


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## GERMANIKS (Dec 7, 2013)

theoldguy said:


> you are saying you play your sub up to 150hz and have the mids take over from there? seems a bit high for a sub to play. Especially when you are trying to achieve "up front" bass. I could see this working if you have a dedicated midbass to accompany the sub and midrange.


I was just pointing out my general approach with regards to midrange drivers specifically. To me the fine tuning is the phase where filling the frequencies gap is the next step. Then it is down to the kind of set up you have, 3 or 4 ways, then individual speaker specs.
I was trying to point out going down to 70-80 was too low for midrange drivers and tthat if the car lack bass the problem is elsewhere. A good 6.5 speaker should provide a reasonable amount of bass but still that should not be the focus.


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## GERMANIKS (Dec 7, 2013)

theoldguy said:


> according to the focal archives, the K2P 165 woofer has an FS of 69Hz


Interesting that's low
I do not think I would go that low but why not it needs to be heard/tested.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

GERMANIKS said:


> Interesting that's low
> I do not think I would go that low but why not it needs to be heard/tested.


that is actually pretty high...doubling that would call for a crossover point of where you suggested around 140. 

If the Head unit will do 24db per octave you could lower that down to 90 or so, but not 70.


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## GERMANIKS (Dec 7, 2013)

miniSQ said:


> that is actually pretty high...doubling that would call for a crossover point of where you suggested around 140.
> 
> If the Head unit will do 24db per octave you could lower that down to 90 or so, but not 70.


Yeah ok that's right with that double formula...I was not familiar with that one.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> Headunit...high pass front set to 80hz High pass rears can be higher...say 100hz Low pass on the sub channel should be 80hz as well.
> 
> as for your EQ..here is a tutorial to read.
> 
> JL Audio » header » Support » Tutorials » Tutorial: Parametric Equalizer


minisq, I don't know how to describe it, but i feel something is off in the sound, i don't feel the bass mesh nicely with the sound as whole. I feel the vocals are lighter without depth, than before and there is no deep punch as a whole, the mids sound a little too flat and not warm. Especially when I listen to songs of artists that have great vocals like pink floyd ( poles apart )

I decided to re-wire the whole system tomorrow with rockford rca so I will go the garage and remove all these ugly wires, so here goes another 150 USD.

I was wondering if I should tell the garage for a certain way to install the system from scratch. If there is a diagram so he can follow instructions.

After re-wring I will start from scratch in tuning. I will let him set the cross-over of the tweeters at -6.

By the my HU does not have separate HPF for front and rear. 

I was wondering if its better to control HPF and lpf from the amps instead of the HU.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

here is the archinve from focal. Page 8 has the TS specs


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

OP, if your speakers are brand new out of the box, you need to give them time to break in. The sound will change after several hours of use.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> minisq, I don't know how to describe it, but i feel something is off in the sound, i don't feel the bass mesh nicely with the sound as whole. I feel the vocals are lighter without depth, than before and there is no deep punch as a whole, the mids sound a little too flat and not warm. Especially when I listen to songs of artists that have great vocals like pink floyd ( poles apart )
> 
> I decided to re-wire the whole system tomorrow with rockford rca so I will go the garage and remove all these ugly wires, so here goes another 150 USD.
> 
> ...


i would print this thread out and ask the person who will be working on your car to read it and let you know what he thinks of it.

what you are describing is a "lack of over all dynamics"...so we could have the gains backed off a little too much...you can try turning the gain on the front of the JBL amp up a little bit...like 1/8th of a turn. If the sound gets harsh then you have gone past where you want to be.

Regarding tuning with the amp vs the HU when it comes to HP and LP...it should not matter.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> i would print this thread out and ask the person who will be working on your car to read it and let you know what he thinks of it.
> 
> what you are describing is a "lack of over all dynamics"...so we could have the gains backed off a little too much...you can try turning the gain on the front of the JBL amp up a little bit...like 1/8th of a turn. If the sound gets harsh then you have gone past where you want to be.
> 
> Regarding tuning with the amp vs the HU when it comes to HP and LP...it should not matter.


I will report back tomorrow, but I was thinking about is there a better of installing my whole system than it is now, in means of wiring things and connecting the HU with the amps.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

theoldguy said:


> OP, if your speakers are brand new out of the box, you need to give them time to break in. The sound will change after several hours of use.


they are over a month old


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> I will report back tomorrow, but I was thinking about is there a better of installing my whole system than it is now, in means of wiring things and connecting the HU with the amps.


i don't think there is anything that they could do that would dramatically change the sound.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> i don't think there is anything that they could do that would dramatically change the sound.


do u think changing cables will be a good idea, as I fell those rcas from the HU are trash over 5 years old


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> do u think changing cables will be a good idea, as I fell those rcas from the HU are trash over 5 years old


 i don't think that is going to help much either. I think you need to find someone near you that can help you tune things to the next level. Any audio clubs there? maybe dosnt need to be car audio...just other folks who have good ears.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> i don't think that is going to help much either. I think you need to find someone near you that can help you tune things to the next level. Any audio clubs there? maybe dosnt need to be car audio...just other folks who have good ears.


not really I went to 3 garages, and they to me seem not even knowing things that are remotely discussed here.

Unfortunately here you can find the gear but not people who know what they sell.

To give you an example the garage i went he had installed in his car a 15000 USD gear and told come look at and listen so I did, and we played some songs I literally could not tolerate 5 minutes in his car it was an orchestra of pain

somehow i regret removing the system that originally came with the car, i liked the sound how involving it was and how smooth and nice, now I have replaced so far 4 amps, 4 sets of different speakers, 3 HU, and 3 subwoofers, and I am losing money like hell

i will change the wires, as I feel the r trash, even if this will not change anything. At least I can fix the issue why the front speakers are the back and the back speakers are the front

also i started to notice a slight hiss sound that I can hear when I have my phone connected either by bluetooth or 3.5mm cable coming out only from the right tweeter and I can hear this hiss sound clearly when I have my phone or my fiio x3 DAP player reaching end of songs. that was not something I heard before.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

you can easily fix the sound coming from the wrong speakers by rearranging the RCAs at the 4ch amp. jsut swap the front rear RCA locations.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

theoldguy said:


> you can easily fix the sound coming from the wrong speakers by rearranging the RCAs at the 4ch amp. jsut swap the front rear RCA locations.


i did that but they are wired wrong in the HU itself anyway its not a big deal as tomorrow I am re-wrining this whole mess


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

i re-wired everything and separated both amps

I guess my problem is setting bass, mid, treble settings

And LPF and HPF, I am sure the key to a nice sound is in those settings

There is a single frequency that is bothering me which I think its either in the mid or the bass frequency. This is causing the sound to be not warm.


any advise


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> i re-wired everything and separated both amps
> 
> I guess my problem is setting bass, mid, treble settings
> 
> ...


what music are you playing that is giving us you this problem? When i hear the word "warm" i generally hear that in reference to the tweeter. But it can also be used to describe vocals which would be more in the midrange.

The focal mid driver itself...how is it mounted? Sometimes door panels have large holes in them and this can cause cancellation. And this is fixed by deadening and sealing the door panel.


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## vivmike (May 24, 2013)

SoundQ SVT said:


> This is a false statement. Systems most certainly can sound great without DSP. Mine is proof of that, just ask anyone that has listened to it.


Oh ok. Who are they?

#1
#2
#3 
#4
#5


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> what music are you playing that is giving us you this problem? When i hear the word "warm" i generally hear that in reference to the tweeter. But it can also be used to describe vocals which would be more in the midrange.
> 
> The focal mid driver itself...how is it mounted? Sometimes door panels have large holes in them and this can cause cancellation. And this is fixed by deadening and sealing the door panel.


i listen to a wide range of music, from pop to rock, metal, classical

I think its in the mid range more than the tweeter. Or maybe the sound as a whole is too sharp. 

I am uploading my re-wring pics what do you think, it did not make a difference by the way as you said. I separated the 2 amps from each other now.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> i listen to a wide range of music, from pop to rock, metal, classical
> 
> I think its in the mid range more than the tweeter. Or maybe the sound as a whole is too sharp.
> 
> I am uploading my re-wring pics what do you think, it did not make a difference by the way as you said. I separated the 2 amps from each other now.


wiring looks much better.

You can try using the EQ to cut the freq around 1k to see if that will take away some of the sharpness. You can also raise slightly the freq in the lower range around 200-400hz to see if it fills in the midbass.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> wiring looks much better.
> 
> You can try using the EQ to cut the freq around 1k to see if that will take away some of the sharpness. You can also raise slightly the freq in the lower range around 200-400hz to see if it fills in the midbass.


that is exactly why I hate now alpine, as its so complicated the way they have their eq. If you look at the manual you will see why I am having this difficulty in the start.

Their eq is so strange to me, and I sent them an email and they told me to contact the dealer here. And the dealer here says to me that my car stereo has no warranty as the garage who sold to me did not give me a warranty. It sucks to buy things here. And he informed me he might charge me so much if he wants to help and check the issue.


----------



## SoundQ SVT (Aug 14, 2013)

vivmike said:


> Oh ok. Who are they?
> 
> #1
> #2
> ...


Way too many to list over the 13 years the system has been in the car, including 5 sound quality titles while I was competing from 2001-2005 (IASCA 2001, 2003; SLAP 2002, 2005; MECA 2002). There were also a couple Top 10 finishes in "Best of the Best" Top 25 rounds at big competitions back then. I brought it out of retirement last year and was giving demos most of the weekend at the Championships in Huntsville, and I know people from this group were among those that had a listen. I will let them chime in if they like.

And one more thing, my system sounds almost equally great from both front seats at the same time.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> I will do that tomorrow morning and report back.
> 
> But can we address for the HPF and LPF on the HU do you have any suggestions
> 
> ...


try setting the mid center freq to Med 1.25 and 1000, and then if you are able to then dial that down by say 6db and compare the sound to see if it is affecting the problem spot.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> try setting the mid center freq to Med 1.25 and 1000, and then if you are able to then dial that down by say 6db and compare the sound to see if it is affecting the problem spot.


i will try that later tonight.

The confusing thing about alpine, is the eq, may I understood it completely wrong

but your input might change my thinking of how it works, lets say I set the frequency to 1K in the mids and put the Q to narrow, and then after that I go to the general BASS,Treble,MIDs button and lower the mids to -6, this means it will lower the 1K only. But will it also lower the 500 frequency.

Their manual is not clear at all. But I am thinking along your direction.

Also if any alpine users can shed a light how can I lower the 1K or 1.25K frequency without affecting so much the 500hz frequency


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> i will try that later tonight.
> 
> The confusing thing about alpine, is the eq, may I understood it completely wrong
> 
> ...


Did you read that link i sent you a few days ago from JL Audio explaining parametric EQ? It shows you how setting the center point to say 1000hz and the width to narrow vs wide will affect neighboring frequenencies.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> Did you read that link i sent you a few days ago from JL Audio explaining parametric EQ? It shows you how setting the center point to say 1000hz and the width to narrow vs wide will affect neighboring frequenencies.


i tried your link but it just took me their website not the guide

i am thinking of buying this 
Clarion EQS746 7-Band Rotary Equalizer at Onlinecarstereo.com

or do think there is a better car eq


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> i tried your link but it just took me their website not the guide
> 
> i am thinking of buying this
> Clarion EQS746 7-Band Rotary Equalizer at Onlinecarstereo.com
> ...


let me try again to resend. but i think you have all the EQ you need in that Head unit.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

This should be a PDF:

http://mediacdn.jlaudio.com/media/mfg/9013/media_document/live_1/Parametric_EQ.pdf?1314072575


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Here is a link to the tutorial page..scroll down in support and click on parametric.

JL Audio » header » Support » JL Audio Tutorials


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> This should be a PDF:
> 
> http://mediacdn.jlaudio.com/media/mfg/9013/media_document/live_1/Parametric_EQ.pdf?1314072575


i read this quickly, minisq

now if I am correct if I set q to narrow, and the frequency to 1K, and the go to the mids level and reduce it to -6. This well mainly reduce the 1k and little surrounding frequencies. 

which frequency in the mid generates sharpness most is the 1k or 1.25K


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> i read this quickly, minisq
> 
> now if I am correct if I set q to narrow, and the frequency to 1K, and the go to the mids level and reduce it to -6. This well mainly reduce the 1k and little surrounding frequencies.
> 
> which frequency in the mid generates sharpness most is the 1k or 1.25K


correct...and just try both and see what sounds better to your ear. I believe you can save presets with that Head unit? Build 3 or 4 different EQ set ups and toggle back and forth.

I would not bother with that other EQ, you have lots of power in that Apline once the light comes on and you begin to understand it more.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> correct...and just try both and see what sounds better to your ear. I believe you can save presets with that Head unit? Build 3 or 4 different EQ set ups and toggle back and forth.
> 
> I would not bother with that other EQ, you have lots of power in that Apline once the light comes on and you begin to understand it more.


oh god minisq thanks so much I never thought the eq in alpine works this way, can't wait until I try it either tonight or tomorrow morning.

usually when I eq anything on my phone power amp, i usually like to listen to a music that has a v shaped eq graph on the eq, maybe that can explain to u what sound signature I like in music


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

heres another video to watch...

Setting the Parametric EQ on a Car Stereo Head Unit - YouTube


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> heres another video to watch...
> 
> Setting the Parametric EQ on a Car Stereo Head Unit - YouTube


minisq, what I am wondering about about reading and watching youtube videos is if we take the mid range frequencies 1K and 2.5K

now I know I need to lower the 1K frequency, but at the same time I want to boost the 2.5K but with the alpine it does not give me the chance to do that it.
It only allows me to adjust one frequency in the mid I know that there are more than one frequency in he mids, so why is not possible to adjust more than one frequency in the mids, especially 1K and 2.5K I want to adjust one up and one down

Am I right or am i misunderstanding the manual


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> minisq, what I am wondering about about reading and watching youtube videos is if we take the mid range frequencies 1K and 2.5K
> 
> now I know I need to lower the 1K frequency, but at the same time I want to boost the 2.5K but with the alpine it does not give me the chance to do that it.
> It only allows me to adjust one frequency in the mid I know that there are more than one frequency in he mids, so why is not possible to adjust more than one frequency in the mids, especially 1K and 2.5K I want to adjust one up and one down
> ...


you wont be able to do that with this Head unit, but you shouldn't have to do that either. Your focals should be relatively flat already. If you had access to the Real time analyzer you would be able to see the curve for your car. You would then set the passive tweeter letting to one of its three settings to bring the overall highs into line..then you would balance the sub amp gain to binr the lows in line. 

Then you would use the 3 bands on your Head unit to lower any peaks brought on from your car's acoustics.

Why do you feel you need to raise 2.5?


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> you wont be able to do that with this Head unit, but you shouldn't have to do that either. Your focals should be relatively flat already. If you had access to the Real time analyzer you would be able to see the curve for your car. You would then set the passive tweeter letting to one of its three settings to bring the overall highs into line..then you would balance the sub amp gain to binr the lows in line.
> 
> Then you would use the 3 bands on your Head unit to lower any peaks brought on from your car's acoustics.
> 
> Why do you feel you need to raise 2.5?


minisq I am beyond thanking you for all the help you provided, I am getting very close to the sound i want. by lowering the 1K frequency to -3 ( Q narrow ) I am very close to what i love hearing.

ignore that 2.5K I am getting more understanding now of things.

I have one question about the focal, as adjusting the crossover tweeter is not that handy it should be a one only time adjustment as removing door panels is a pain. So my question is why did you recommended them to be flat and at -6 , what would that to the sound in general. Also when I set it at -6 does it only apply to the tweeter or to the speaker itself.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> minisq I am beyond thanking you for all the help you provided, I am getting very close to the sound i want. by lowering the 1K frequency to -3 ( Q narrow ) I am very close to what i love hearing.
> 
> ignore that 2.5K I am getting more understanding now of things.
> 
> I have one question about the focal, as adjusting the crossover tweeter is not that handy it should be a one only time adjustment as removing door panels is a pain. So my question is why did you recommended them to be flat and at -6 , what would that to the sound in general. Also when I set it at -6 does it only apply to the tweeter or to the speaker itself.


I recommend listening to them at -6db to see how you liked them. What i do is drive around for a few days with my door panels off, since i have my crossovers in the door panel as well. You were saying you wanted warm sound, so -6db on the tweeters would be as warm as you could get. Most people end up setting their crossovers at -3db. Or run active...but lets not go there yet. ( or ever)

setting to -6db just adds a resistor inline with the tweeter, 2 resistors actually, as setting to -3db adds one resistor, and it does not affect the midrange at all.

Dont think of "flat" on the crossover as being "flat". Since Focal has no idea what kind of sound you like, or where in the car the tweeter is going to go. Think of this switch as a way of best blending the tweeter output with your car environment.

In other words...setting to -6db may actually be playing flatter than 0db. It all depends on the environment they are in.

But if you are close...then no need to bother...you may be able to tick down the treble setting on the alpine and do the same thing as changing the XO


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

whats the verdict on using only the front speakers and leaving out the rear fill

what is now the consensus on that, and what volume levels are recommended for front and rear

another question is when I set the crossover of the tweeters to -6 does that make them less detailed in sound outcome, and is there no affect at all to midrange speakers as you stated

on another note, I know I have good speaker focal k2power, and I think a decent sub pioneer 1400 watts, but which will give me a better sound by changing the alpine head unit, or the jbl amp. 

The in ability in the alpine to store eq settings, is driving me crazy, and the parametric equaliser is ok but its not easy to mess around with. Do some head units provide different sound signature than others

What would you recommend me to buy if I want to replace either of these gears seeking warm signatures


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

I would pull the rear speakers and sell them if they are worth more than say $400 us. Replace with something basic for rear fill...and I would consider looking at some Dsp units to get the EQ that you are craving.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

hykhleif said:


> whats the verdict on using only the front speakers and leaving out the rear fill
> 
> *Don't use rear fill unless you really know what you're doing.*
> 
> ...


I wasn't going to reply more to this mess of a thread but seriously...

Look at this frequency plot. It's a nearfield measurement of a Peerless HDS 6,5" driver. Look flat and nice right?

(From Zaph)










Now, look at this plot (same drivers - fullrange):



OMGZ, what the heck happened??? 

Answer: The driver is installed in a door, in a car, without EQ. The response looks like crap. They sound like crap. WHY is THIS? Because the environment messed things up. Therefore, I say this once more; ALL CAR AUDIO SYSTEMS NEED CHANNEL INDEPENDENT EQ. All cars suffer from this, no matter how good you guys think your systems are, I guarantee that they will be tons better with a proper DSP installed to fix these response deviations. All these peaks and dips are nothing else than distortion, the general consensus among audiophiles should be 'to have low distortion systems' - right?

Back to the frequency graph. In the area 200-800Hz where most fundamental vocals lie, there's a 5-15dB deviation between left and right side. The effect this have is an uneven stage, with instruments, vocals and harmonics of these all over the place. Both time arrival and frequency intensity between the two channels must be aligned to attain a stage. This is hard facts, if you think I'm full of BS - take a good read how humans perceive sound localization. Search for Inter-aural-difference, Inter-aural-intensity and equal-loudness-curves. This should give you a nice idea of what mechanism is behind perceiving a stage, proper tonality etc etc. 

A auto-EQ DSP like the JBL MS8 or a Alpine H800 will set T/A, levels, EQ and stuff automatically. So will a Pioneer 80PRS & P99RS. Passives in a car is more complicated than a fully active system to get somewhat right.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> I wasn't going to reply more to this mess of a thread but seriously...
> 
> Look at this frequency plot. It's a nearfield measurement of a Peerless HDS 6,5" driver. Look flat and nice right?
> 
> ...


Why do you have to come in here and act like a pigeon and just crap all over everything with your pseudo BS know it all attitude?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Why has this thread 100+ replies of complete non-importance? If you disagree with what I'm saying present one single evidence that I'm wrong.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## ZeblodS (Nov 4, 2009)

Hanatsu I think you are right about the need of high processing in a car. But I also think that auto-EQ NEVER works fine...


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

unfortunately where I live they don't sell the JBL ms8, also head units with dsp here cost a fortune, I found something that is cheap but I don't know if it will add any benefit to my car sound its the JBL MS-2 

JBL ProCoustics MS-2 - JBL


or this JBL MS-A1004 amplifier 

what is the thought on this, is it just a gimmick or will it enhance things


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## Zippy (Jul 21, 2013)

I think I see a problem. Both the amp crossovers and headunit crossovers are in use. Since both are done before amplification, this adjusts the actual frequency cut off that is output to something different. If you want to filter at the headunit then change the amps to disabled crossovers so they play full spectrum. This allows the head unit to isolate the frequency range for you. Do just one not both.

Just an observation.

Would you concur minisq?


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

Zippy said:


> I think I see a problem. Both the amp crossovers and headunit crossovers are in use. Since both are done before amplification, this adjusts the actual frequency cut off that is output to something different. If you want to filter at the headunit then change the amps to disabled crossovers so they play full spectrum. This allows the head unit to isolate the frequency range for you. Do just one not both.
> 
> Just an observation.
> 
> Would you concur minisq?



i turned them flat now on both amps, as minisq suggested before. 

But it seems i am having difficulty in achieving the desired sound signature so I was wondering about the JBL MS2 DSP or the JBL MS1004 amp
if they would add benefit to me or are they just toys


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Zippy said:


> I think I see a problem. Both the amp crossovers and headunit crossovers are in use. Since both are done before amplification, this adjusts the actual frequency cut off that is output to something different. If you want to filter at the headunit then change the amps to disabled crossovers so they play full spectrum. This allows the head unit to isolate the frequency range for you. Do just one not both.
> 
> Just an observation.
> 
> Would you concur minisq?


i think he is looking for a sound that he may not be able to get with the speakers that he has. At one point he said he was very close, and then he redid all the wiring and is now talking about replacing stuff again.

This where it gets hard over the interweb to troubleshoot....


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## Zippy (Jul 21, 2013)

hykhleif said:


> i turned them flat now on both amps, as minisq suggested before.
> 
> But it seems i am having difficulty in achieving the desired sound signature so I was wondering about the JBL MS2 DSP or the JBL MS1004 amp
> if they would add benefit to me or are they just toys


From the last photos it looked like the switches for the amps were not in AP/disabled. That's why I brought it up. Just because you adjusted the dials does not disable the crossover on the amps.

I agree with minisq's comment about making it sound as good as you can before looking to add a DSP, unless your initial goal is SQ with no expense limits(My BRZ). 



miniSQ said:


> i think he is looking for a sound that he may not be able to get with the speakers that he has. At one point he said he was very close, and then he redid all the wiring and is now talking about replacing stuff again.
> 
> This where it gets hard over the interweb to troubleshoot....


Agreed. I did not want to distract from what you have been doing, that is why I asked for your agreement on my post. I did not want to thread jack this from you. To many hands in the cookie jar. 

PS: I just gave you a rep for this thread. Great job so far.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

Zippy said:


> From the last photos it looked like the switches for the amps were not in AP/disabled. That's why I brought it up. Just because you adjusted the dials does not disable the crossover on the amps.
> 
> *I adjusted the dials and the switches after I rewired everything, the latest pics were before any modifications, so the rockford switch is on AP, and the the JBL switches are flat and the HPF off*
> 
> ...


minisq i am much much more close to what I like, and big thanks goes to your advise. So you think its my speakers that are limiting factor, I dont want you to give up on me in this system, its all a learning curve, I just need to figure out things and I am a new to all this, but with your help I am getting closer. But seriously would the JBL DSP be any help or their amp


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## Zippy (Jul 21, 2013)

hykhleif said:


> minisq i am much much more close to what I like, and big thanks goes to your advise. So you think its my speakers that are limiting factor, I dont want you to give up on me in this system, its all a learning curve, I just need to figure out things and I am a new to all this, but with your help I am getting closer. But seriously would the JBL DSP be any help or their amp


I have my crossover on my alpine set. When my amp crossover is turned to anything but pass through/disabled my midbass goes away. If you are using the alpine crossover then disable the amp crossover. 

If you get a DSP, the first thing the DSP tells you to do is disable the amp crossovers. If you want to go with a DSP, the MS-8 is the easiest to set up. The only drawback is that you have no control over its settings after it auto tunes. If you are fine with that then the MS-8 is your best purchase. Any other DSP will require manual settings. Look for features you want in the DSP after that. It's your call.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> minisq i am much much more close to what I like, and big thanks goes to your advise. So you think its my speakers that are limiting factor, I dont want you to give up on me in this system, its all a learning curve, I just need to figure out things and I am a new to all this, but with your help I am getting closer. But seriously would the JBL DSP be any help or their amp



you don't seem like the JBL MS8 type...but maybe.

And i am not giving up, i just had my a good friend lose her husband unexpectedly last week and so friday was the wake and saturday the funeral, so i have been trying to help her stay sane.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> you don't seem like the JBL MS8 type...but maybe.
> 
> And i am not giving up, i just had my a good friend lose her husband unexpectedly last week and so friday was the wake and saturday the funeral, so i have been trying to help her stay sane.


so sorry to hear the bad news of yours 

I will read about it maybe I am chasing something illusive, also I read about the kickers front row, the problem here is you can't try things so i solely depend on what others say. I am also starting now to doubt my focals are not original maybe a counterfeit as I got them for less than 400 USD from a garage and he did not give me warranty or anything, but when I entered their serial into focal website it got registered.

I wish I could try things out before I buy them maybe then I will get things right. There 2 dam frequencies in the mid and 1 in the bass that annoy me. with the parametric equaliser its not that easy

But by all means I am so much much much better than were I started


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

hykhleif said:


> whats the verdict on using only the front speakers and leaving out the rear fill
> 
> what is now the consensus on that, and what volume levels are recommended for front and rear
> 
> ...


the alpine you have DOES have the ability to store up to six peq settings along with the current time alignement and crossover settings. While in the parametric eq, press and hold one of the six number keys at the bottom of the display for at least two seconds.
as far as the sound signature and the two trouble areas you have, I had the same problem and had to move the center frequency of the bands a few times before I found the frequencies that were giving me these issues.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

moparman1 said:


> the alpine you have DOES have the ability to store up to six peq settings along with the current time alignement and crossover settings. While in the parametric eq, press and hold one of the six number keys at the bottom of the display for at least two seconds.
> as far as the sound signature and the two trouble areas you have, I had the same problem and had to move the center frequency of the bands a few times before I found the frequencies that were giving me these issues.


i was hoping someone with experience with this Head unit would come in and help this guy out.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

moparman1 said:


> the alpine you have DOES have the ability to store up to six peq settings along with the current time alignement and crossover settings. While in the parametric eq, press and hold one of the six number keys at the bottom of the display for at least two seconds.
> as far as the sound signature and the two trouble areas you have, I had the same problem and had to move the center frequency of the bands a few times before I found the frequencies that were giving me these issues.


do you have the same model like mine alpine 134BT, and which frequencies were those that you removed


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

I actually have the 149. But all the features are nearly identical. I'm actually still fighting to get mine dialed in as well but time alignement is what's giving me problems. That being said, I'm now very close.I believe the passive two way in the front is the limiting factor due to locations and the fact they are cheap POS speakers.


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

hykhleif said:


> do you have the same model like mine alpine 134BT, and which frequencies were those that you removed


I don't know what my eq settings are off the top of my head. I can post them in a little while if you'd like but I'm not sure they will help you a whole lot as we have different systems and cars. But hey, they may give you a good leaping off point.


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## ZeblodS (Nov 4, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> I wasn't going to reply more to this mess of a thread but seriously...
> 
> Look at this frequency plot. It's a nearfield measurement of a Peerless HDS 6,5" driver. Look flat and nice right?
> 
> ...


Like Hanatsu I really think the issue in this setup is the lack of tuning.
You can use very high-end parts (speaker, head unit, amps) but if you have no tuning capabilities in your setup it will sound like crap.
I will support this assertion with measurments of my setup without and with tuning.

My setup is a 3 way active system in the front plus subwoofer in the trunk. All measures are taken from the position of the driver's head.

For the following screenshots, the continuous line is the level and the dotted line is the phase. See the legend of each screenshot for the driver(s) mesured. Clic on the picture to see it in full scale.


First, without tuning:




You can see that the response per speaker is really crappy and that's because, like Hanatsu said, of the automotive environment (panels trembling, glass windows reflexions, confined space, etc).

Then a measure with all speakers on each side playing at the same time (without any tuning), the level response isn't smooth at all. It is really bumpy, with a lot of problems where two speakers play the same frequency at the same time.

Finaly all the speakers of the car at the same time, and there are even more level problems because of phase issues between left and right side.

That's the kind of level response the OP currently have in his car, and that's why it sounds really really bad.


Now, with some tuning:




The response per speaker is smoother, each one plays in it's own range thanks to Xover and EQ (using biquad filter simulated with REW).

Then a measure with all speakers on each side playing at the same time using Xover, EQ, Delay and Level correction. It is also way better, all problems where two speakers play the same frequency at the same time are gone.

With all the speakers of the car at the same time there is still some phase problems between left and right side.

That's why I used a phase correction between left and right side, plus a phase correction to linearise the global phase of the car using convolution software in the head unit.

The final measure with all the speakers of the car at the same time show now a smooth global response and rellay little phase deviation (no group delay in the signal).
It is the same kind of level response you have in home setup, and it sounds like one.

That's what you can achieve when you have massive tuning capabilities. 

My advice to the OP: don't change every parts you already have, because the problem is just the lack of tuning.


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

Hanatsu said:


> Why has this thread 100+ replies of complete non-importance?
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


That is a bold statement!

This thread has been very beneficial. Of course in theory a processor would help, but not without the steps that have been taken in this thread. If someone was there local to help him then it would be a great service to him. The problem is he is in the beginning process of learning how to properly connect everything and to overload him with information involving a much more complex setup could actually be a further problem. 

I think the suggestion of this thread has been to help him get his current equipment organized first.

Also he did say he did not have money for the processor. 

Is your reply a need to be right or in desire to help? I see someone walking him through step by step trying to help him learn it and a recipient much much happier than the beginning of this thread so I would say it has been very beneficial.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

moparman1 said:


> I actually have the 149. But all the features are nearly identical. I'm actually still fighting to get mine dialed in as well but time alignement is what's giving me problems. That being said, I'm now very close.I believe the passive two way in the front is the limiting factor due to locations and the fact they are cheap POS speakers.


looking forward to your settings

I think what I might ask is a stupid question, but I don't understand when you guys say active or passive can you elaborate


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

Here are my eq settings:
1 31.5 hz Q 3 +1
2 80hz Q 3 -1
3 160hz Q 3 +3
4 250hz Q3 0
5 500hz Q3 +2
6 2 k Q3 +2
7 6.4 k Q3 0
8 12 k Q3 +2
9 16 k Q3 +31
As for time alignement, a tape measure will get you close. Are you familiar with Alpine time alignement?


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

ZeblodS said:


> like one.
> 
> That's what you can achieve when you have massive tuning capabilities.
> 
> My advice to the OP: don't change every parts you already have, because the problem is just the lack of tuning.


You have to have the knowledge to tune it though to that level. I agree this would be a great long term goal for him but the steps provided in this thread have been a great foundation that have not cost the OP any money and more immediately allow him to enjoy his setup. Of course a processor will improve the sound if setup properly. The only way to understand if he needs the sound taken to that level though, is first to have his current equipment setup properly. He may be like the rest of us and seek for perfection or he may be just fine with it. Either way the experience is preliminary to be able to learn to tune a processor.


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

Passive meaning there is a crossover between the mid and tweeter but are both being fed the same channel which is then devided in freq by the crossover. 
Active you have a seperate channel to each allowing seperate eq, level, and time alignement for each component.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

Tnutt19 said:


> That is a bold statement!
> 
> This thread has been very beneficial. Of course in theory a processor would help, but not without the steps that have been taken in this thread. If someone was there local to help him then it would be a great service to him. The problem is he is in the beginning process of learning how to properly connect everything and to overload him with information involving a much more complex setup could actually be a further problem.
> 
> ...


minisq and others have been a great help, and I thank everyone, I know sometimes my questions sound silly and I am not ashamed to admit I am a complete newbie, who got ripped off by dealers, and reached a conclusion that I need to learn from people who would like to share their experience.

just the last 2 months look what I bought, 1 sony BT car stereo 500 USD, 4 jbl speakers ( 500 USD ), dam crunch 900.4 amp ( 400 USD ), all that are thrown to waste and no one wants to buy anything of them. And installation costs 200 USD

So then the other garage sold me 4 speakers of k2power ( 400 USD for a pair so 800 USD for the 4 speakers) and I have now doubts they are original , then he made me buy an alpine 134BT for 700 USD and he took my stereo so I paid 700 USD over my sony stereo, then a rockford amp with its installation cost me 500 USD, then a dam JBL GX A604 another 400 USD. Plus installations costs 300 USD 

The problem where I live things are dam expensive not like in the US.

This is why I need to learn from you guys, and I am having a difficulty in identifying that dam frequency that is bugging me, is it the alpine, is it the jbl, is it the speakers. All I remember when my grand cherokee 2004 had its original speakers and its old HU the sound was fine, so I am not leaning now to install dynamat. Because when I tune things I tune it in my garage and there is no noise around me, and still there is a dam frequency or sound signature that I hate so much.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Tnutt19 said:


> That is a bold statement!
> 
> This thread has been very beneficial. Of course in theory a processor would help, but not without the steps that have been taken in this thread. If someone was there local to help him then it would be a great service to him. The problem is he is in the beginning process of learning how to properly connect everything and to overload him with information involving a much more complex setup could actually be a further problem.
> 
> ...


exactly...this guy is the same one who posted on page one that it was impossible to have a decent sounding system without DSP, and he has been sporadically crapping all over this thread with his knowledge.

My goal all along has been to help the OP learn the basics of tuning with what he has already, and to try and prevent him from just throwing more money at it without getting a solid foundation of what should or can be changed to get great sound.

Lets suppose he does buy a DSP...who is going to tune it for him? In other words without a serious RTA, he may be wasting $600.

And for all these guys throwing pictures of freq response curves...i don't see how that is helping at this point. 

I feel we have moved past level setting and now it would be awesome to focus just on helping him tune with his Head unit to determine if it is going to be enough power to make this work. Or if a different HU or possible new signal processor is needed.


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> exactly...this guy is the same one who posted on page one that it was impossible to have a decent sounding system without DSP, and he has been sporadically crapping all over this thread with his knowledge.
> 
> My goal all along has been to help the OP learn the basics of tuning with what he has already, and to try and prevent him from just throwing more money at it without getting a solid foundation of what should or can be changed to get great sound.
> 
> ...


I am on the same page as you. He has some nice equipment. The issue lies in tuning. Another thing that I've been wondering is if there is a relative phase problem. (One midbass connected reverse of the other).


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

moparman1 said:


> I am on the same page as you. He has some nice equipment. The issue lies in tuning. Another thing that I've been wondering is if there is a relative phase problem. (One midbass connected reverse of the other).


can you explain to me a little more what you mean.


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

hykhleif said:


> can you explain to me a little more what you mean.


One speaker basically hooked up backwards. - to + and + to -


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

moparman1 said:


> One speaker basically hooked up backwards. - to + and + to -


the last the garage I went to he hooked the front speakers to the JBL rear part and the back speakers to the JBL front part, as he wanted to apply the frequencies from there as he say the rear gives better frequency control as it has a dial up for the rear. But after minisq suggestions i turned off the switches on the jbl amp and control the frequencies from the head unit, but did not change the speakers rca locations, maybe I should put the front rca to front of the jbl, and the rear speaker rca to rear speakers of the jbl

and how can I check this - and + thing is it on the speakers themselves or form the head unit

I should mention I noticed something when I started controlling the frequencies from the head unit and not the amp, that the speakers produce some noise, not hissing, its that frequency in the mid bass that cause them to humm or crackle more than before, I will try to lower the gain a little. But that hummm I don't know if you understand what I mean, is when there is some bass frequencies they produce a weird noise, I put the HPF at 80 and sometimes at 120 HZ on the HU but this noise get produced more than before and the LPF at 160HZ. I tried before lowering the gain but then I feel there is no sound fill. 

I am not the type of person who cranks the speakers at crazy volumes, I like listen to music at 25 volume rarely i go over 25 in volume


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

Front or rear has nothing to do with electrical phase. One quick check you can perform to check relative phase is to turn off your sub, fade all the way to the front and set your front hpf to flat so that your front speakers are now putting out bass. Turn your volume to about 16-18. With music playing, toggle your balance all the way to the left then back to center. The bass should increase when you go back to center. If bass diminishes, that would indicate destructive interference or cancellation which would indicate one of the drivers is connected backwards. You can then do the same for the two rear speakers followed by only the two left then just the two right.
IMPORTANT: YOU WILL HAVE TO SET ALL TIME ALIGNEMENT TO 0 FOR THIS TO BE EFFECTIVE. 
To check absolute phase, if you can see the cone of each speaker, you can use a 9v battery. Remove one of the speakers wires from the amp noting which lead is positive and which is negative. When you touch those leads to the corresponding battery contacts, the cone should move outward. If it moves inward instead, the leads are reversed on the back of the speaker. No need to remove the speaker to correct the problem, just reverse the leads at the amp. Now positive is positive and negative is negative.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

guys i found at my home an un used Behringer MINIFBQ FBQ800, it operates via 9 volts 750mA

I was wondering if I can install this in the car using the cigarette lighter as power source, but I would like know what the best way to install it, between the head unit and the jbl amp by the taking the front speakers rca of the speakers into the input of the bheringer then have the output rca from the behringer into the jbl amp. Its just a for me to see what a graphic equaliser will bring to the equation.


Behringer: MINIFBQ FBQ800


MINIFBQ FBQ800


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

hykhleif said:


> minisq and others have been a great help, and I thank everyone, I know sometimes my questions sound silly and I am not ashamed to admit I am a complete newbie, who got ripped off by dealers, and reached a conclusion that I need to learn from people who would like to share their experience.
> 
> just the last 2 months look what I bought, 1 sony BT car stereo 500 USD, 4 jbl speakers ( 500 USD ), dam crunch 900.4 amp ( 400 USD ), all that are thrown to waste and no one wants to buy anything of them. And installation costs 200 USD
> 
> ...


No shame at all in being at the beginning stages. We all started there and the great thing about this thread is we are all learning. There is always something to learn.
MINISQ has done a fantastic job of pin pointing some basics that will help you assure you are connecting everything properly. Get all those down, understand them and things will start to make since.

In addition, to check the polarity. 
There should be some kind of marking on your speaker wires to indicate one channel vs the other. Some times there are actually positive marks through one side of the wire, other times it is writing. You need to make sure that the marking is consistent throughout. SO if it is used as positive into your amplifier, you need to remove the speakers and make sure it is connected to the positive of the corresponding speaker. I agree, I would check all of those. It is pretty normal for a shop to get in a hurry and mess this up.


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

hykhleif said:


> guys i found at my home an un used Behringer MINIFBQ FBQ800, it operates via 9 volts 750mA
> 
> I was wondering if I can install this in the car using the cigarette lighter as power source, but I would like know what the best way to install it, between the head unit and the jbl amp by the taking the front speakers rca of the speakers into the input of the bheringer then have the output rca from the behringer into the jbl amp. Its just a for me to see what a graphic equaliser will bring to the equation.
> 
> ...


I would continue to fix the current issues with the install. Adding more hardware will add more complications and possibly more issues. As soon as you understand the basics you can start to look at the advanced.


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

Sorry for abandoning the thread guys... Have you ever forgot a case of Pepsi in your car and had the temperature drop to -35 overnight? What a f***ing mess!!!


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Tnutt19 said:


> I would continue to fix the current issues with the install. Adding more hardware will add more complications and possibly more issues. As soon as you understand the basics you can start to look at the advanced.


100% agree....


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

moparman1 said:


> Sorry for abandoning the thread guys... Have you ever forgot a case of Pepsi in your car and had the temperature drop to -35 overnight? What a f***ing mess!!!


i have not but my wife has, so that pretty much means i have...kind of like watching an episode of Dexter and his blood spatter layouts.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

moparman1 said:


> Sorry for abandoning the thread guys... Have you ever forgot a case of Pepsi in your car and had the temperature drop to -35 overnight? What a f***ing mess!!!


moparman1 i understand i frustrated you tomorrow i will check all the wiring cool down i know how it feels when u try to teach a newbie, i get that when i try to help people with flashing firmwares in androids so bare with my newbieness a little


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

Buy me a plane ticket and I'll come out and take care if it for you. Haha.

Start with door speakers high passed at 24 db at 60 or 80 hz. 60 if your doors are sealed.
Put subwoofer lowpassed at 24 db at 60 or 80 hz.
Do the high and low pass in the head unit, not the amplifier

Set the amplifier crossovers to full pass because you're using the head unit for that.

Set the gains to 1/4 turn from minimum to start (you can start at 0 gain too). Turn volume up to 3/4 of the maximum volume on the cd player, turn the gains up on the speakers and subs until you hear distortion while playing music you are very familiar with how it should sound (probably won't have to go past 50% gain). 

Then once that's done, go into the head unit and adjust the EQ settings. Maybe start by reducing approx. 2500 hz by a few points which will help with harshness and reduce 100 hz by 1 or two points or so, which will help if you are getting some boominess from your door speakers.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

alright well many r leaving this thread I must have really caused frustration so sorry for all this


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

hykhleif said:


> alright well many r leaving this thread I must have really caused frustration so sorry for all this



You have no reason to be sorry. No one is frustrated with you. A lot of people are here trying to help you. That is a great thing about this forum, a lot of people are very willing to share their knowledge and experience.

I would not use that Behringer EQ. When it comes time you are ready to add a processor I would add a Mosconi 6to8 or Alpine h800.

This is the time when you would want to ditch the passive crossovers up front though and go active. I really would not rush to do this at this time though, you still have to have the basics inline or you will not get the benefit. It will raise a ton more questions too. Do a search on this forum for active vs passive. There should be a lot of information to teach you what it is and what you will need to do it.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

sirbOOm said:


> Buy me a plane ticket and I'll come out and take care if it for you. Haha.
> 
> Start with door speakers high passed at 24 db at 60 or 80 hz. 60 if your doors are sealed.
> Put subwoofer lowpassed at 24 db at 60 or 80 hz.
> ...


i will try this tomorrow after i check the wiring what a mess I caused in this thread, if nothing works out to my liking i will throw out all of this garbage to hell, I myself am tired of this I am starting to feel completely so frustrated from this crap, I think consumers should not go through all this hell to enjoy things, I prefer things to be easy out of the box. Everything these days is so dam complicated. What I like about the JBL MSA 1004, is it does the gain settings through a cd I am seriously thinking of getting it, and it has DSP r whatever the hell this will do. I am sure if I check out the thread for the JBL MSA1004 I will find tons of weird posts too, I am getting tired really

Is boominess a sign of gain be too high, I don't know what you mean exactly by boominess but for me it as if a certain frequency is causing some kind of noise that comes from sound reflections on the door panel or the speakers.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

Tnutt19 said:


> You have no reason to be sorry. No one is frustrated with you. A lot of people are here trying to help you. That is a great thing about this forum, a lot of people are very willing to share their knowledge and experience.
> 
> I would not use that Behringer EQ. When it comes time you are ready to add a processor I would add a Mosconi 6to8 or Alpine h800.
> 
> This is the time when you would want to ditch the passive crossovers up front though and go active. I really would not rush to do this at this time though, you still have to have the basics inline or you will not get the benefit. It will raise a ton more questions too. Do a search on this forum for active vs passive. There should be a lot of information to teach you what it is and what you will need to do it.


thanks so much, I was scanning through the threads and saw a thread about active vs passive, and I need to read into it. Maybe the answer is there. As for the behringer I will not add it it seems to be a bad idea.

Since I posted bad ideas, I will also try to bring my cerwin vega VE12 home speaker ( 1 speaker ) and remove the sub and the rear focal speaker, and connect the cerwin vega speaker as a back speaker to the jbl, lets things go crazy,


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

hykhleif said:


> moparman1 i understand i frustrated you tomorrow i will check all the wiring cool down i know how it feels when u try to teach a newbie, i get that when i try to help people with flashing firmwares in androids so bare with my newbieness a little


You haven't frustrated me at all. I'm more than happy to try and help. I know how frustrating it can be to dump all this money and be less than overwhelmed. If you have any questions fire away.


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

Any updates?


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

moparman1 said:


> Any updates?


ok i went crazy and bought the JBL msa1004 amp, and the sound is much better than the amp I had.

This will be my final purchase of anything, so now I need to figure how to tune this, as it has many things in it, which is different than tuning a regular amp.

I ask in another thread about setting it up. As my current set up now is the following

1- JBL msa 1004 connected to the focal k2power speakers
2- Rockford prime amp connected to the subwoofer ( pioneer 1400 watts)
3- alpine 134BT HU

the sound is better than before, of course taking in consideration i am still not knowing exactly what are the best settings for the JBL amp. But I followed the basic instructions of setting the input levels using a cd.


So what I did on my HU:

HPF: off
LPF:160

For the 3 band eq I used the following

Bass: Narrow Q, frequency 60, and level +2
Mid: Medium Q, frequency 1, and level -3
treble: Narrow Q, frequency 12.5, level +4
--------------------------------------

On My JBL amp:

HPF set for 4 channels at 80
LPF: off
and the volume gain I put to max 80
-------------------------------------
on my rockford amp:

I put LPF off so i control it from my HU.
----------------------------------------
I know its a mess what I do above but it sounds better than before.But still need to figure more about the JBL amp itself. As I am not understanding why when I try to control the LPF from my JBL the sound gets weird and the volume lowers, so i found it easier to control the LPF from my HU.


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## Zippy (Jul 21, 2013)

Your JBL amp is powering your mid range and high range speakers. When you enable a low pass there you are only allowing the frequency that the LPF is at and below to go to the speakers. The passive crossovers then only allow higher frequencies thru. That's why you are getting weird sounds and the volume is lowered. 

A LPF(Low Pass Filter) allows the set frequency and below to be played. The lower frequencies are your mid bass and subs.
A HPF(High Pass Filter) allows the set frequency and above to be played. The higher frequencies are your mid range and tweeters.

With a two way setup(your focal component set), you want your high pass filter to dip down into the mid bass frequencies(80-100 hertz).

Hope that helps explain some stuff. I'm jumping back out of the thread again to keep from too many people chiming in.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

Zippy said:


> Your JBL amp is powering your mid range and high range speakers. When you enable a low pass there you are only allowing the frequency that the LPF is at and below to go to the speakers. The passive crossovers then only allow higher frequencies thru. That's why you are getting weird sounds and the volume is lowered.
> 
> A LPF(Low Pass Filter) allows the set frequency and below to be played. The lower frequencies are your mid bass and subs.
> A HPF(High Pass Filter) allows the set frequency and above to be played. The higher frequencies are your mid range and tweeters.
> ...



So my current setting is ok:

alpine HU: 

HPF off
LPF 160 
-------------------------------

JBL msa 1004: connected to 4 focal speakers

HPF : 100 HZ
LPF: OFF

-----------------------------------

Rockford prime: connected to pioneer sub

LPF: off as its controlled from the HU

------------------------------------------

By the way I loveeeeeeeeeeee the sound I am getting, I think I made a good choice with the JBL msa 1004, love love the sound, this makes me want to go out and buy the JBL msa 5001 for my subwoofer instead of the rockford


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

hykhleif said:


> So my current setting is ok:
> 
> alpine HU:
> 
> ...


The jbl amp I would lower to 80 hz rather than 100hz and lpf on the hu to 80hz aswell. For me personally, 160hz is way too high for a subwoofer to be playing. Give that a shot and let me know what you think.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

moparman1 said:


> The jbl amp I would lower to 80 hz rather than 100hz and lpf on the hu to 80hz aswell. For me personally, 160hz is way too high for a subwoofer to be playing. Give that a shot and let me know what you think.


i will give that a try, I have one question, by changing the HPF do I need to go all over the input level setting using the cd again or no need


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

alright I put the LPF on the HU to 80 and the HPF on jbl to 80 and boy the sound is amazing so full and great, what a difference the jbl made to the sound is unbelievable

thanks so so much for all your help, now I know what it feels like to enjoy a nice sound. Minisq zippy, moparman1 you were all a great help.

Now I will definately go buy the JBL msa5001 for my sub, as its not that expensive so I will keep you posted.

love pink floyd now listening to poles apart from the division bell album is so great.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> love pink floyd now listening to poles apart from the division bell album is so great.


nice choice! old school goodness.


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## Zippy (Jul 21, 2013)

hykhleif said:


> alright I put the LPF on the HU to 80 and the HPF on jbl to 80 and boy the sound is amazing so full and great, what a difference the jbl made to the sound is unbelievable
> 
> thanks so so much for all your help, now I know what it feels like to enjoy a nice sound. Minisq zippy, moparman1 you were all a great help.
> 
> ...


I think MiniSQ deserves a lot of the credit. He did the heavy lifting on this. I just chimed in here and there. 

I'm glad you finally got to the sound you wanted. Have you tried "Dire Straights - Money for Nothing" yet?


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

Car audio... the most aggravating thing on earth. Until you get it right!


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

Zippy said:


> I think MiniSQ deserves a lot of the credit. He did the heavy lifting on this. I just chimed in here and there.
> 
> I'm glad you finally got to the sound you wanted. Have you tried "Dire Straights - Money for Nothing" yet?


Agreed. I'm glad to hear you're happy with your sound... for now.....


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

minisq deserves a big thanks as he gave outstanding advises, and I am glad he tolerated my noob questions.

On another note guys, I honestly can't but help myself recommend the JBL amp maybe its not the best, but I love the sound image and stage it allows me to enjoy. Nice full vocals, warm, and tight bass, everything is amazing, now the sound in my far is a pure joy.

i will buy soon the jbl mea 5001 for the sub and keep u updated


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

woot woot...glad you are up and running!!!


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

although I enjoyed some improvement by buying the jbls msa1004 but still I am not getting to what I like there are frequencies I don't like, and when I tune my car stereo I do it in a garage that is very quiet so noise at all around me, but now everything is falling apart, yesterday i met with people who are experts, and they said to me everything I have is bad.

I am so bumped and angry, so far I spend so much money, now they want me to buy everything from scrtach this is what they propsed:

1- get a new HU
2- get an 8 year old phoenix gold 200.4 amp
3- get two arc audio sub 350w 
4- get a lightning audio strike 1000
5- redo all cables and connections and wiring and dynamat for 2 doors
6- buy a new set of Focal KRX3

The above will cost me around 4500 USD, and they want to go quasie in the set up

I am so bumped and angry, and lost in this whole thing.

I am leaning towrds just buying a new HU like the pioneer prs80 so I can adjust the freqencies I dont like with the graphic equalizer.

if I just buy the pioneer prs80 can i still go passive in my setup as I will not be able to go to extperts above who wnat me to change my whole car system so I can only go regular garages who only know how to set up actively 
current set up I have below:

1- JBL MSA 1004
2- focal k2p 4 speakers
3- rockford fosgate prime amp for my pioneer sub 

i am starting to wish I never started this journey in upgrading and learning as money is gettings out of my pockets like a crazy.

also I am starting to get lost what my focal models really are, as they are 5.25inches and not 6.5 when I bought . I have their serial number how can I know what they are excatly from the serial number, they might not be focal k2power 165.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

hykhleif said:


> 1- get a new HU
> 5- redo all cables and connections and wiring and dynamat for 2 doors
> 
> I am so bumped and angry, and lost in this whole thing.
> ...



I perfectly understand why you're angry. It's not the first time I've heard just this problem, people spending money on stuff "experts" recommend they should get. Getting a new HU/DSP was what I proposed in very beginning. I question these so called experts who tell you buy new gear all the time. Your issue is very very likely with tuning and not gear. The 80PRS is a great unit with a great DSP. I'm pretty sure the graphic EQ will fix most of your issues, that's what EQ does - fix issues. The 80PRS got autoEQ which you can fine adjust yourself, I personally don't like it but chances are that it will improve stuff by quite a bit.

You can keep buying stuff for thousands of dollars, as long you don't have EQ it will sound like crap anyway (yeah go ahead and whine you anti-DSP people). I have done many many installs now in my ~10 years of car audio and listened to hundreds of SQ systems. All good sounding cars use big amounts of EQ (because the environment got big issues). I have heard $1000 systems that sounded better than systems ten times as expensive because they know how to tune. 

Learn this rule: Install & Tuning = 95% of the sound experience. If you got decent stuff already, the install and tuning is all that matters.

One question, why do they want you to redo cabling and connections? Any problems with those? Otherwise, disregard that recommendation - it won't improve anything. Dynamat (or any CLD for that matter) will certainly help if you got resonances or issues with midbass, but in the midrange/tweeter area it won't be of any use.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Hanatsu said:


> I perfectly understand why you're angry. It's not the first time I've heard just this problem, people spending money on stuff "experts" recommend they should get. Getting a new HU/DSP was what I proposed in very beginning. I question these so called experts who tell you buy new gear all the time. Your issue is very very likely with tuning and not gear. The 80PRS is a great unit with a great DSP. I'm pretty sure the graphic EQ will fix most of your issues, that's what EQ does - fix issues. The 80PRS got autoEQ which you can fine adjust yourself, I personally don't like it but chances are that it will improve stuff by quite a bit.
> 
> You can keep buying stuff for thousands of dollars, as long you don't have EQ it will sound like crap anyway (yeah go ahead and whine you anti-DSP people). I have done many many installs now in my ~10 years of car audio and listened to hundreds of SQ systems. All good sounding cars use big amounts of EQ (because the environment got big issues). I have heard $1000 systems that sounded better than systems ten times as expensive because they know how to tune.
> 
> ...



X2 ^^^^

you have good gear, spend some time with an RTA getting it close to the target curve you want, then spend more time fine tuning it.


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

hykhleif said:


> although I enjoyed some improvement by buying the jbls msa1004 but still I am not getting what I like there are frequencies I don't like, and when I tune my car stereo I do it in a garage that is very quiet so noise at all around me, but now everything is falling apart, yesterday i met with people who are experts, and they said to me everything I have is bad.
> 
> I am so bumped and angry, so far I spend so much money, now they want me to buy everything from scrtach this is what they propsed:
> 
> ...


I don't think you need better equipment. Remember, your "experts" are sales people who are trying to sell all they can. Your sub isn't great but isn't bad either.they sound good just have limited output.
The only thing I would maybe consider is a parametric eq. It won't adjust left and right independently, but will do what you want it to do for a lot less money than the p80rs. The other issue is you'll have allot of learning to do to get all this set up properly. Just work with what you have and learn as much as you can about tuning. Do a search on here about time alignement. You'll find useful tips and info. As for your speakers just Google the numbers and it should give you some results.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

moparman1 said:


> The only thing I would maybe consider is a parametric eq. It won't adjust left and right independently, but will do what you want it to do for a lot less money than the p80rs.


NO!

YOU NEED L/R EQ. It's the most important damn thing in the system. Parametric EQ is crap if it's not channel independent. The 80PRS got autoEQ, you don't need experience to setup that.

...otherwise I agree with everything else you said.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

minbari said:


> X2 ^^^^
> 
> you have good gear, spend some time with an RTA getting it close to the target curve you want, then spend more time fine tuning it.


Thanks, finally someone that agrees with me lol... this thread is unbelievable.


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

Hanatsu said:


> NO!
> 
> YOU NEED L/R EQ. It's the most important damn thing in the system. Parametric EQ is crap if it's not channel independent. The 80PRS got autoEQ, you don't need experience to setup that.
> 
> ...otherwise I agree with everything else you said.


I agree with you completely. But for someone just starting to learn tuning it's a good place to start. It's also better, more flexible, than his current 3-band. Also, from what I gather Pioneer s auto eq isn't that great. Nowhere near as good as the ms-8.


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## ZeblodS (Nov 4, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> Thanks, finally someone that agrees with me lol... this thread is unbelievable.


I agreed with you from the beginning (page 1), but saying here that the tuning is the most important thing is a blunder...


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

Hanatsu said:


> Thanks, finally someone that agrees with me lol... this thread is unbelievable.


I'm not sure anyone really was disagreeing with you. We just wanted to help him learn to walk before he could run.

Without understanding the basics how can you enjoy the benefits of a processor. He had wiring issues and setup issues, that all is part of the 95 percent right.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Hanatsu said:


> Thanks, finally someone that agrees with me lol... this thread is unbelievable.


lol, I agree with you more than you know


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

Hanatsu said:


> I perfectly understand why you're angry. It's not the first time I've heard just this problem, people spending money on stuff "experts" recommend they should get. Getting a new HU/DSP was what I proposed in very beginning. I question these so called experts who tell you buy new gear all the time. Your issue is very very likely with tuning and not gear. The 80PRS is a great unit with a great DSP. I'm pretty sure the graphic EQ will fix most of your issues, that's what EQ does - fix issues. The 80PRS got autoEQ which you can fine adjust yourself, I personally don't like it but chances are that it will improve stuff by quite a bit.
> 
> You can keep buying stuff for thousands of dollars, as long you don't have EQ it will sound like crap anyway (yeah go ahead and whine you anti-DSP people). I have done many many installs now in my ~10 years of car audio and listened to hundreds of SQ systems. All good sounding cars use big amounts of EQ (because the environment got big issues). I have heard $1000 systems that sounded better than systems ten times as expensive because they know how to tune.
> 
> ...


you know I was thinking of buying the Ms8 but those experts who know how to install it want me to buy the new gear, and told me that passive system I have the MS8 will not have an effect, so they will not help me in installing it. The other garages don't know how to install an active system to use the ms8 with. I am so being ripped off be people here. Unless I can benefit from the MS8 with my active setup.

they just want me to replace everything and this is the story I hear whenever I do something the new guy tells me I have to do something new and get rid of the old thing. I was wondering would I benefit from the JBL ms2 as its simple and requires no setup with my passive setting


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

Tnutt19 said:


> I'm not sure anyone really was disagreeing with you. We just wanted to help him learn to walk before he could run.
> 
> Without understanding the basics how can you enjoy the benefits of a processor. He had wiring issues and setup issues, that all is part of the 95 percent right.


i redid the rewiring and checked polarity, but to the new guys as usual its that they want to redo everything, the same story I hear everywhere


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

OMG! almost 200 posts on this thread! unbelievable, I tried to help the OP on a couple of other threads posted after this one, and I was all alone on those pretty much. I guess I know why now 


I get good sound with 6 channels, single amp, 3 band EQ.

I also went over the basics, wiring, sub and box build should be checked. Fade the rears, deaden seal the doors etc.

Maybe the OP has other expectations, I do not think replacing the HU will solve the issue it may make it more complicated, auto tune could help but I am thinking. Either the HU is defective, cheap RCA's are being used or the polarity or the crossover networks are connected backwards for the wrong drivers. 


What I would do is to listen to other car's systems, maybe expectations are set too high.

As they mentioned reset the HU, some setting is on that should be off, maybe the internal HU amp, maybe loudness is on level 3 instead of off. Speaker size, maybe it has a setting not correct for the ones being used.

A parametric EQ can be complex to set, I would try with some of the presets and change it from there or keep it if it sounds good. 

After all that is checked, if it is still the same. I would just exchange the HU for another one under warranty, it could be faulty. Or have the HU tested by 2 different shops in front of you to avoid any Scam or BS and pay for the testing.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

I wouldnt trust anyone who recommends buying a lightning audio amp. That is bottom of the barrel crap that should never be anywhere near arc audio or focal gear.

Have you been able to narrow down which frequencies are giving you trouble?


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

wires and not crappy I did use good ones but not top of the line, polarity checked on speakers using a 6v battery and the speakers bend outwards not inwards so the polarity on all are correct.

What pissed me most is once they saw the focal its a 5.25inch they immediately made feel to me like if those are crap speakers.

deadening the doors well this is on my to do list but i am waiting on this a little as I am tuning in a dead silence space no sound from street or whatever so I will on this a little bit.

The HU is not defective, its more to do with me not liking certain frequencies that the dam parametric eq is dam hard to get rid off without affecting other frequencies that I like to be left alone as is or give a little boost. 

I see now the only solution is to get an MS8 or a new pioneer prs80 as those allow me to manipulate frequencies instead of the dam parametric eq on the alpine

I m not just confused would I benefit from installing the MS8 in a passive setting or not.

Or if the pioneer prs80 can be setup in a passive setup like my original set that I have now as the garages will work on it are not that experts in installing active systems

I simply can't got to the experts who wanted me to buy all new gear, they will not install things like that for me unless I go according to their advise in setting a whole new car system so I have to rely on have decent experienced garages who only can set it in a passive way


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

Skip the MS8 if you want to use the system passively and like to tune to your own liking.

Like Hanatsu said, get a radio or DSP which has INDEPENDENT L/R EQ. 

MS8 does not have this... although it does a pretty good job on it's own.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

JVD240 said:


> Skip the MS8 if you want to use the system passively and like to tune to your own liking.
> 
> Like Hanatsu said, get a radio or DSP which has INDEPENDENT L/R EQ.
> 
> MS8 does not have this... although it does a pretty good job on it's own.


can you give an example of a dsp with L/R


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

Most DSP these days will have EQ on each individual channel. Some will have graphic, some parametric and some will have a combination. Mosconi, Audison, Arc, Helix, Alpine, etc.

MS8 is more of a set it and forget it application... for people who don't like tinkering. It does a wonderful job at that but if you're not happy with the sound from it's initial tune there's not much you can change.

A miniDSP might even be something to consider in your application as well.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

guys a small update I realised how naive I was and I got ripped loyally

I just figured out that what I have is not 4 focal 165 K2P speakers, but instead this is what I have

front: K2P 130 KP
rear: K2p 130 KF

I have been ripped loyally, I was wondering how much they are worth brand new, I am now so angry as those assholes just rip me off. 

And I was wondering what you guys think of those speakers now, are those any good


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

without the basics

we are :dead_horse:


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

Alrojoca said:


> without the basics
> 
> we are :dead_horse:


you are right, I am just angry now.

i am getting slow progress in theory, i wish i could install things myself instead of buying from dealers, who take advantage of newbies.

i think i will give up now with the setup i have and try to get along with what i have, as i am so bummed by everything and i am not going to buy anything for some time. 

Maybe even I will start listening to music using my bleu tooth headphones in the car instead . I am so angry now


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## Zippy (Jul 21, 2013)

hykhleif said:


> you are right, I am just angry now.
> 
> i am getting slow progress in theory, i wish i could install things myself instead of buying from dealers, who take advantage of newbies.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear all this since you started to like your system more than you did when you started. There is no reason that you cannot do some work yourself at this point. Adding sound deadener to remove rattles and vibrations from your doors, panels, and other areas that you may hear would be cheap to do and easy. There are plenty of how to guides here on the forum.

As to the "Experts", have you asked to hear a system install that they have done? I'm willing to bet they will not let you hear what they have put together in a car or have you hear one that's way more expensive than what they are selling. They are salesmen and want to sell you stuff you don't need. Don't listen to them.

I have never heard an Alpine head unit I did not like. They have enough basic features to go well in any vehicle. I would not go to a prs80 with rear fill as you have. The prs80 is better suited for front channel only and a sub. The parametric EQ in it does not apply to rear fill as per pioneers documentation. It's only the front channels.

With the MS8 can run both active and passive components. So don't listen to them saying it won't sound good. It also requires rear speakers for it's autotune to be optimal which you have. You can rerun the autotune later on if you change out amps to go full active up front. Being brand spanking new to DSPs and not being able to trust local installers, it's a no brainer to pick. With a DSP the defeat setting on your Alpine actually makes it a better head unit than a Pioneer when combining with a DSP. It disables ALL signal modification done in the head unit. Hind sight 20-20 in my case.  

Take some time to cool down and relax. Think through what you want to accomplish and ask questions on here. See what you can have delivered instead of buying at a shop. There are a lot of good people with the same passion for quality sounding stereos on this forum. We will help you as much as we can.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

Zippy said:


> Sorry to hear all this since you started to like your system more than you did when you started. There is no reason that you cannot do some work yourself at this point. Adding sound deadener to remove rattles and vibrations from your doors, panels, and other areas that you may hear would be cheap to do and easy. There are plenty of how to guides here on the forum.
> 
> As to the "Experts", have you asked to hear a system install that they have done? I'm willing to bet they will not let you hear what they have put together in a car or have you hear one that's way more expensive than what they are selling. They are salesmen and want to sell you stuff you don't need. Don't listen to them.
> 
> ...


thanks zippy, it seems ms8 then is the way to go, but do you think my speakers are good, after i figured out they are K2p 130 and k2p165

if i buy the ms8 can you zippy tell me what else i need to buy to install it myself, like cables, etc, and if you can provide links to what is needed I will appreciate it as still terminology can sometimes throw me off.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Zippy said:


> I have never heard an Alpine head unit I did not like. They have enough basic features to go well in any vehicle. I would not go to a prs80 with rear fill as you have. The prs80 is better suited for front channel only and a sub. The parametric EQ in it does not apply to rear fill as per pioneers documentation. It's only the front channels.


What the heck? You have no idea what you are talking about. First the DEH-80PRS does not have a parametric EQ. It has a 16 band L/R independent graphic EQ. Second, the EQ applies to specific frequencies, not specific drivers. If a driver is receiving a signal of a given frequency from the head unit and that frequency is being adjusted by the EQ, then it is being adjusted for that driver. 

The ONLY thing you lose when switching to Standard Mode is the active crossover capabilities.


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## Zippy (Jul 21, 2013)

hykhleif said:


> thanks zippy, it seems ms8 then is the way to go, but do you think my speakers are good, after i figured out they are K2p 130 and k2p165
> 
> if i buy the ms8 can you zippy tell me what else i need to buy to install it myself, like cables, etc, and if you can provide links to what is needed I will appreciate it as still terminology can sometimes throw me off.


To be completely honest, there are others on here with way more DSP experience than me. The MS-8 is fairly easy to setup from what I have read in the downloadable PDF manual for it. It's also straight forward to use. I will defer to those with more experience on a MS-8 to better assist you than I can.

Your speakers are a step down from the top of the line Focal's. That's like complaining about getting a Porsche Cayman S instead of a 911. They should be just fine. Work on isolating the noise. Is it speaker or car vibrations. It's possible that you may have blown a speaker getting to here, which is what I'm concerned with. If you have, then Focal may be able to replace it for you.



rton20s said:


> What the heck? You have no idea what you are talking about. First the DEH-80PRS does not have a parametric EQ. It has a 16 band L/R independent graphic EQ. Second, the EQ applies to specific frequencies, not specific drivers. If a driver is receiving a signal of a given frequency from the head unit and that frequency is being adjusted by the EQ, then it is being adjusted for that driver.
> 
> The ONLY thing you lose when switching to Standard Mode is the active crossover capabilities.


My bad, you are correct. The 80PRS has a graphic EQ not a parametric that is *DUAL* channel. That does not change the fact that it's EQ settings only apply to the left or right channels as per manual. So if the correct front left settings are incorrect for your rear left channel, then you are stuck with them. It does only run $350 MSRP. If the OP did not have rear fill, then I'd have said go with the 80PRS in a heartbeat. Don't think that I dislike the 80PRS. I was torn on getting one myself. It was the lack of control over front/rear EQ that swayed me to the RF 360.3 and an old Alpine I had laying around for my RAV4.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Wow...I seem to have missed a bunch here.

MS8 may be nice, but I still say it's too early in the game to be getting into dsp.

I would rather you get to the point where you love your system first, and then add the dsp. 

The analogy here in the states would be don't slap lipstick on a pig. 

There is no reason that the levels cannot be adjusted to listenable conditions without adding the dsp. I see that the speakers you have are not the speakers you thought you had. So maybe that's the problem. But I still would not drop 4500 dollars with this new company. 

I am not sure how much money means to you, some people can drop 5 grand and it's no big deal. Me personally I am agonizing over the design to spend 500 dollars this weekend on a helix dsp. The money is not the issue, it's do I want to spend it on that piece.

Let me research those speakers...and see if I can determine what hu you currently have. And see if we can come with a roadmap for you.

Do you have the time in your life and the desire to do your own installs? That would be first suggestion...and it may be the ultimate roadmap. After all this is a DIY forum


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Being that the focals you have up front are 5 1/4" speakers you need to be crossover them over a bit higher...maybe at 150hz, and consider adding adding dedicated mid bass ..either up front, or in place of the rear speakers. Just my initial thoughts. And why you do not have the warmth you want.

Or if they will fit, replace the 130' s with larger drivers...


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## MUGWUMP (Jan 29, 2012)

Stop buying more ****.

Read more.

Has anyone mentioned speaker polarity? How about door treatment? (I know...contradicting statement #2 pppp


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## MUGWUMP (Jan 29, 2012)

Looks like they're 6.5". Nevermind. 5.5" cone it looks like. Those look like sweet drivers. I would NOT change a thing equipment-wise. 100+ is prob a good highpass. 
Focal 165 K2P car audio speakers


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

MUGWUMP said:


> Looks like they're 6.5". Those look like sweet drivers. I would NOT change a thing.
> 
> Focal 165 K2P car audio speakers


read back 16 hours...he thought he had those, but in fact he has smaller speakers.


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## MUGWUMP (Jan 29, 2012)

One last thing. To make sure you're adjusting the right EQ you can use charts that tell you the frequency you have issues with. If you can identify certain instruments/voices that you think are too loud you can narrow down the bands you need to cut.

Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network


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## MUGWUMP (Jan 29, 2012)

miniSQ said:


> read back 16 hours...he thought he had those, but in fact he has smaller speakers.


Oops. Missed that. Damn. Even the 150 you mentioned may be pushing it. Maybe the sub can cover it.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Pushing small drivers will create lot of distortion, it will muddy up the midrange and might even cause the system to sound harsh. If I get it right we're talking about 5.5" drivers? In that case 80-125Hz highpass depending on slope. If you (OP) decide to go passive I'd go with either 80PRS or a 2x4 MiniDSP w. DC isolator + Umik-1 . Both setups will be relatively cheap if you compare them against those advanced 8ch DSPs. MiniDSP with UMIK-1 will also give you autoEQ through RoomEQ software (free) and you will be able to fully customize and view the response. All in all, going with MiniDSP will be more advanced to setup but it might be more rewarding in the end. But please, make sure the install is correctly executed before messing with more gear or tuning. Sounds like those "experts" were really experienced at screwing people.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## hykhleif (Feb 10, 2014)

new update

I decided to go with the experts and this will be my new gear after 2 weeks

1- audison lrx 2.9
2- audison lrx 1.1
3- pioneer 80prs
4- focal krx3 front speakers only
5- arc subs
6- complete new wiring
7- dynamat 3 layers 

lets see what this will do after that if I don't like the sound I will burn everything


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> new update
> 
> I decided to go with the experts and this will be my new gear after 2 weeks
> 
> ...


Crazy transformation the last few days....my only concern is with the focal speakers, you sound like you hate the sound of your current focals. Why not change to a new sound since it is apparent money is not an issue...maybe illusion or dynaudiio would be wort considering?


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## 727south (Jul 21, 2009)

hykhleif said:


> new update
> 
> I decided to go with the experts and this will be my new gear after 2 weeks
> 
> ...


Replace the head unit to Pioneer 80PRS 
Replace the amps to JL HD900.5 
Replace the sub to Hertz HX300
and sent me $20 :laugh:


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

3 layers of Dynamat? 

I think the issue was just tuning and setting the amp gains properly, sometimes you need to not quite follow the manufacturers settings instructions to get amps to sound better speaking from experience with the JBL MS amp.


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