# close cell foam



## GS3 (Feb 19, 2006)

question about second skin over kill close cell foam. is the ss over kill the same stuff as the ensolite?
anyone use the over kill and any comments. how effective is the extra layer of close cell foam?

thanks in advance


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

I truly believe that adding ensolit to the raam mat (as the last layer) improved the sound proofing of my truck. Its awesome stuff (the ensolite). I have no idea about second skin...but the ensolite you can get from Rick McCallum...who is awesome to deal with.


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## Derek (Jun 4, 2005)

i noticed more of a difference from one layer of 3/4" closed cell in my doors than i did with 4 layers of deadening....


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## Tirefryr (May 15, 2005)

Derek said:


> i noticed more of a difference from one layer of 3/4" closed cell in my doors than i did with 4 layers of deadening....


 You are running your mids IB? The foam would be useless if there were an enclosure correct?


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## Derek (Jun 4, 2005)

yes, IB. foam killed an absolute ton of road noise though.


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## Tirefryr (May 15, 2005)

That's very nice to hear. My taurus is the biggest road noise turd. May work equally well under a carpet then.


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## Derek (Jun 4, 2005)

yeah....i think this summer i'm going to snag some ensolite and do the rest of the car....


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## dBassHz (Nov 2, 2005)

You can get some closed cell egg crate foam from walmart for $12.xx. Its used to cover the ground under your sleeping bag (in the camping section). I used 1 layer to cover the entire inside outer door and 3 layers behind my midbass. Best $12.xx I ever spent on my system. The 40 sq. ft of dynamat Extreme & Damplifier Pro for my front doors helped greatly too.


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

I think people have a huge mis-conception concerning sound deadening and vibration control. 

Products like Raam mat, Dynamat, and spray on eDead are for VIBRATIONAL control

Products like Ensolite and egg crate foam are for SOUND ABSORPTION/CONTROL

They serve different purposes, but when used combined, their affects are great enhanced when compared to the product by itself.


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## dBassHz (Nov 2, 2005)

Yeah, guess I should have clarified that. I just wanted to let people know about the great deal on the egg crate that you don't have to water proof.


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## B&K (Sep 20, 2005)

If cars were designed right instead of for a price point we wouldn't need either, instead you need both.


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## squeak9798 (Apr 20, 2005)

AzGrower said:


> I think people have a huge mis-conception concerning sound deadening and vibration control.
> 
> Products like Raam mat, Dynamat, and spray on eDead are for VIBRATIONAL control
> 
> ...




It's called mass loading and barrier loading. 

Liquids are actually a decent combination of both, but not necessary the best at either. Liquid deadeners do have better barrier loading properties than mat type deadener...but they aren't nearly as effective on their own as foams are. Likewise, liquids do a good job of mass loading, but again aren't as effective on their own as mat deadeners.


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## dBassHz (Nov 2, 2005)

Another cheap recommendation is using the rubber spray that people use to line the bed of their trucks or the underbody. I sprayed a couple coats on the outer inside door panel before laying down the dynamat extreme. It helped to reduce the rattles of small objects that I couldn't get to with the dynamat.


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

There is only one real spray on coating that I know of that works both on mass loading and sound blocking. It is used in industrial situations and laboratory setting, its called Noise Killer and can be found here. Its not cheap though by any means:
http://www.memtechacoustical.com/noisekiller/noisekiller.htm


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## Hobbes26 (Mar 9, 2005)

Where can I get some of this Ensolite?


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

Hobbes26 said:


> Where can I get some of this Ensolite?


you came to the right spot...RaamAudio offers it along with his excellent product Raammat bxt. Hit him up, he can help you out.


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## Hobbes26 (Mar 9, 2005)

AzGrower said:


> you came to the right spot...RaamAudio offers it along with his excellent product Raammat bxt. Hit him up, he can help you out.


... in Canada tho? hmm


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## MrLister (Feb 17, 2006)

Hobbes26 said:


> ... in Canada tho? hmm


I live in Burnaby, BC. I ordered mine last Thursday, got it yesterday. Inexpensive S&H to Canada. Great guy also, I would highly recommend him. I've ordered Brown Bread and B-Quiet in the past minly because they're in Canada but RaaMaa audio does a lot better.


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## squeak9798 (Apr 20, 2005)

AzGrower said:


> There is only one real spray on coating that I know of that works both on mass loading and sound blocking.




SecondSkin Spectrum and Cascade (V-block ?) does aswell. eDead is supposed to aswell....but I'm not a big fan of their products.


Over on SIN they had an article showing the reduction in interior noise using the Cascade product.


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## Hobbes26 (Mar 9, 2005)

MrLister said:


> I live in Burnaby, BC. I ordered mine last Thursday, got it yesterday. Inexpensive S&H to Canada. Great guy also, I would highly recommend him. I've ordered Brown Bread and B-Quiet in the past minly because they're in Canada but RaaMaa audio does a lot better.


Thanks. Emailed him, now waiting for reply.


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## GS3 (Feb 19, 2006)

AzGrower said:


> There is only one real spray on coating that I know of that works both on mass loading and sound blocking. It is used in industrial situations and laboratory setting, its called Noise Killer and can be found here. Its not cheap though by any means:
> http://www.memtechacoustical.com/noisekiller/noisekiller.htm


do you think this may be the same product, just a different name.
http://www.quietsolution.com/Products/Transportation___Vehicles/transportation___vehicles.html


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## Ocelaris (Jun 23, 2005)

There are generic versions of the asphaultic and butyl based solutions. Grace Ice and water guard is the asphaultic, comparable to dynamat original, and Grace Vycor is the butyl based alternative. Just to give some alternatives, you can get 100 square feet of either for 50$ at a roofing supply store. another alternative to ensolite or egg crate foam is jute, fiberous carpet padding. 

The key for sound absorption and diffusion is density and air pockets. compressed fiberglass is an ideal sound absorber, but rigid, and well, it's fiberglass, not great for the hands or maleablility in a car situation. Most cars use a combination of jute or other fiberous materials... 

You can see some of the OEM fiberous material that Honda uses:


















Compared with the Jute I used:










Here are some pics of honda's factory asphaultic mass loading sheets (the darker patches)










Versus the plastic backed Asphaultic Grace Company, Ice and Water guard I used:










The door is only half way done. 

The Jute cost me about 20$ to do the entire car, I used about 60 sqare feet of the Ice and Water Guard, used the rest on my wife's car... I probably spent ~50-60$ on the entire project. I'll bet my marbles it's in pissing distance of some of the more expensive installs... if I was just more patient and did more layers, I think you could exceed because it's less than half the cost. 

Some of the more exoteric material provides are thicker by a few mil (1/100th of an inch = 1 mil) but double up for half the price... mass loading is about weight. 

As for the jute vs. say ensolite, I won't make any judgements because I have not seen or heard it, same for v-block etc... They're all great products, just don't spend your money on dynamat, it's waaaayyyyy too expensive. We have a great contributor, the guy who does Raamat, I probably would go with his materials myself next time just because he's a good guy and is into the hobby.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Ocelaris,

1) Grace Ultra is their butyl based product - Vycor is Rubberized Asphalt. Ultra is quite a bit more expensive. Ultra is 25mils thick so you will need three layers and will not get the benefit of the aluminum foil constraining layer. Three layers of Ultra + foil is considerably more expensive than RAAMmat or similar.

2) Closed cell foam like Ensolite and Neoprene does not absorb and hold water. Products like the jute you are showing are completely inadequate for use in car doors. It will be a perfect medium for mold, bacteria and mildew. It will also encourage rust. Use it under carpets if you like, but please don't encourage people to use it as a general replacement for closed cell foam.

3) The Honda OEM sound deadening you describe as "asphaltic" is applied prior to the high bake before going to paint shop. That is something on the order of 350 degrees F for 30 minutes. Asphalt would not survive this. The fact that it is black does not make it asphalt. The suggestion that the asphalt roofing underlayment you used is in any way comparable is absurd.

There is more to consider in an asphalt/butyl comparison than just heat tolerance. Butyl's viscoelastic properties are greater than rubberized asphalt's at any temperature and are effective over a much wider range of temperatures.

Asphalt is much more volatile and out gasses carcinogenic fumes.

The aluminum foil layer has significant barrier properties in and of itself.

People also need to consider how much support they are likely to get when they use products off label. Grace Construction is not going to help when their roofing underlayment fails in a car.

When you first made this presentation on the 7thgencivic forum, I accepted what you said. I started doing research, only to discover that I would pay more for Grace Ultra than for a aluminum foil constrained butyl mat designed for automotive use. Eventually my curiosity led me to set up sounddeadenershowdown.com.

I'm glad you found a solution that works for you, but please do not mislead people into thinking that you have found a solution that is comparable to some of the better aftermarket automotive products. Choosing to use RAAMmat/Ensolite, Damplifier/Neoprene, Dynamat Xtreme/Whatever is much more than doing a favor to a nice guy on the forum. It is choosing to use products that are superior in almost every aspect to those you chose. It is also choosing to use products with a much lower likelihood of catastrophic failure.


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## Ocelaris (Jun 23, 2005)

Look, I appreciate all the research and effort you've done. However it kinda hurts my feelings the rudeness you bring to this debate. And I know it gets heated, I honestly can't remember who you were on the 7thgen forums, but there were some nasty ones... you can see why I'm not going to get into this. 

When I got started 4 years ago, there was no choices. You go fight for something you believe in, and take all the crap people will bring down on you for doing something really brave, and see where that gets you... I don't appreciate your condescending attitude, and you haven't done a thing to convince me. You didn't even test the Grace materials in your review? 

I'm only in this for the truth, so it doesn't matter to me what's right, and I'm not a condescending or rude guy, but I will make you defend your position until you cry and say uncle... 

You did some good work, If you are going to be the resounding voice of what is truth, then I hope for all of us that you have enough courage to question yourself as much as others question you. Because we'll all be listening and believing, and no amount of research will ever prepare you to be a good leader.


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## Ocelaris (Jun 23, 2005)

psst... unsubscribed


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Ocelaris said:


> I'm only in this for the truth, so it doesn't matter to me what's right, and I'm not a condescending or rude guy, but I will make you defend your position until you cry and say uncle...
> 
> You did some good work, If you are going to be the resounding voice of what is truth, then I hope for all of us that you have enough courage to question yourself as much as others question you. Because we'll all be listening and believing, and no amount of research will ever prepare you to be a good leader.


Oh I see, you are pursuing the truth without regard for what is right. That sums it up pretty well. You are suggesting that people pursue a course that is dangerous. You are pretending to be friendly about it while making incoherent threats and not presenting anything to support your position.

I did not test the Grace products because they have already done it. There is extensive data on their Web site.

It is precisely this sort of information pollution that makes it so difficult for people make rational choices. So yes, I am crying uncle, but only because of the pointlessness of this exchange. I had forgotten the extent of your work on 7thgencivc:



Ocelaris said:


> wow, you guys need a learning on asphault sheeting... I don't know where you got that nonsense that it smells or gives of carbon monoxide... that's just insane.
> 
> Read the sticky, it's all made in the EXACT SAME PLANT IN OHIO! I have gotten 100 square feet of the Grace, Ice and Water guard for 30$ picked up. that's .30$ a square foot.
> 
> The ONLY thing you use any of these mats for is WEIGHT, there is no special properties at all inherent in them.


I didn't edit that. The false statements actually occur at the rate of at least one per sentence. You seem more interested in stirring things up than in helping anybody. Proof of your devotion to this lunacy is easily available to anybody wanting to visit: 7thgencivic.com. Search on Ocelaris for all you need to know. 

I am not the resounding voice of truth. I'm just a guy who has spent way to much time screwing around with these products and feels a certain obligation to keep a simple topic simple.


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

And what pertenant information would a senior status at That cultivation website add to this...........absolutely none......why bring personal information into a thread that is talking about dampener.........it has nothing to do with DIY audio, so i'd think you should edit that out if i was moderator, or at least had any respect for someones own personal life.

So how does the personal poke at cultivation have anythig to do with close cell foam or even deadener?

Stay on topic.


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

As long as the topic is on growing hydroponic greenhouse tomato crops, I can add validity...any thing illegal and I cant comment...sorry


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

AzGrower said:


> As long as the topic is on growing hydroponic greenhouse tomato crops, I can add validity...any thing illegal and I cant comment...sorry


Yes yes. I don't have a problem either way. I thought it was an amusing explanation for what struck me as a really peculiar response. I and I like my hydroponic tomato too. Googling this guy is good fun.

This thread started out with someone looking for information on an important aspect of deadening. Jute is not a good substitute. As it turns out, when I first got interested in this topic, a thread by the same gentleman was one of the first sources of information I came across. I inadvertantly quoted the bit about "it all coming from the same plant in Ohio" in SDS.

It just gets under my skin when what can be such a useful project gets undermined by this nonsense. Fine, use jute and Peel & Seal, but do it because you are willing to take a risk to save some money. Don't do it because you believe it is the same as RAAMmat/Damplifier/DynaX. Trying to prevent somebody else wasting their time absorbing this stuff as fact.


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

Rudeboy said:


> Fine, use jute and Peel & Seal, but do it because you are willing to take a risk to save some money. Don't do it because you believe it is the same as RAAMmat/Damplifier/DynaX. Trying to prevent somebody else wasting their time absorbing this stuff as fact.


Well said...


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

I was just reading in the Car Sound & Performance forums that this guy experimented with those "memory foam" pillows, you know the ones that conform to the shape of your head? Well he bought a "memory foam" matress and used it to seal a trunk area in the side panels. It repels water, its closed celled, and it easily fill gaps due to it's ability to compress and expand. Plus they are pretty damn cheap at Target stores. 

Hmm, something to look into!


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## carter (Aug 20, 2005)

The guy has a point though.

Ice Guard is a cheaper alternative to expensive deadening products.

Here is a quote from carstereo.com:

''Liners

Tar mats and similar products such as Dynamat are used to reduce resonances in metal panels. A car lined with a mat will have a much lower road noise. To add a mat liner to a car, seats, carpet, door panels, etc. have to be removed. With the help of a heat gun, and a small wallpaper roller, the material can be laid over door panels, floors, wheel wells, etc. A cheaper alternative to Dynamat, as mentioned in the rec.audio.car FAQ is a product used by roofing contractors called “Ice Guard”, which has an adhesive backing and works the same way.''

Although it may not be AS good as any of the other products, it still is a cheaper alternative. If you take into account that the product is made to ad weight to the metal in order to reduce vibrations.

I would be curious to do a audio comparason with the same amount of real liner and Ice Guard and see if there is a REAL auditive difference between the two.

As of now, everything is based on what people say without any specific testing. It would be interesting to have a partial person do an auditive test on 2 identical car with identical equipment and get them compared.

On my part, I still am not convinced that there is an audible difference. I haven't found anything comparing the 2 excepted for specs. If anyone has a source, please put the link.

Thanks


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

carter said:


> The guy has a point though.
> 
> Ice Guard is a cheaper alternative to expensive deadening products.
> 
> ...


The problem with doing effectiveness testing is that the standard tests cost in the thousands per sample. This is made worse by the fact that the numbers that a lot of suppliers use are fabricated. That means if you are a seller of damping mat, you have the opportunity to spend thousands on testing only to end up with data that looks terrible compared to the bogus data out there.

Even though most of these products emphasize viscoelastic damping over mass loading, there really isn't any way, again, without dropping big money, to evaluate the relative utility It does seem very likely that viscoelastic damping plays some role. Otherwise, people would gravitate toward heavier solid sources of mat. We do know that butyl has better viscoelastic characteristics than asphalt.

I don't think the answer to that question really matters. If you live in a cold climate - or at least one that doesn't get hot, asphalt will probably be OK. It does get brittle before butyl, so again, viscoelastic compromise. They have been using Brown Bread in England for a long time and I haven't heard of big problems.

The real problem comes from heat. Interestingly, Grace Construction has tested this extensively and lay out some good looking data on their Web site. They are concerned with the length of time their underlayment can be exposed to the elements before it either gets sealed into the roof or fails.

Plain asphalt melts at a very low temperature. All of the asphalt products add a rubber compound to the asphalt to increase its heat tolerance. This compound can tolerate heat up to 180F (I think) You would think that this would be adequate for all but the most extreme applications - and it would, if it were stable. The problem is that the rubber additive deteriorates over time at temperatures much lower than the initial failure temp. This syncs with the normal pattern of failure. Good for two or three years and then failure. Unfortunately, it doesn't always just fall of. The rubber loses the ability to stabilize the asphalt and the asphalt melts out of the mat.

This assumes that the mat adheres well to begin with. Some do, some don't.

Butyl is a more controllable substance than asphalt. It is much easier - although more expensive - to produce a stable product. Asphalt can be used as filler, as long as the butyl content is high enough to keep the whole thing together. Basically encapsulates the asphalt filler.

It really seems like an easy choice. What I don't get are the people who will happily spend thousands on a sound system and try to save a few cents per sq ft. on deadener. There is no question that an equal weight of butyl is at least a little bit more effective that asphalt. No question that it is much less risky. The only reason I could see to choose asphalt over butyl, especially in light of the good value products available, would be if there were absolutely no benefit to choosing butyl. That just isn't the case.


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## badlieu (Jul 13, 2005)

<----- I have RaamMat, Peal N Seal and Dynomat Xtreme with carpet wadding (soon to be closed cell instead) under all body panels (minus the doors - no speakers in them). I only got the Peal N Seal as a quick-fix for a small area of deadening. Sure it was the cheapest but it took at least two and probably closer to three layers to equal the RaamMat in size and definitely doesn't come close in adhesiveness and flexibility. The Dynomat Xtreme does work great but as everyone knows it is very expensive. I only got the Dynomat Xtreme because at the time I was employed by Best Buy and the $100 kit was only $35 with my discount. Anyways, the only one I will be buying more of is RaamMat.


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## Ocelaris (Jun 23, 2005)

Don, you are way out of line. I said "here have the thread, have your glory" and you sucker punched my, and are resorting to slander now. I have never attacked you, but you seem all to ready to stab people when they cede you some responsibility. I'm not saying I have that right, but when someone says they're not going to fight, and you actually go to great lengths to research their personal history... throughout history, those kind of people have been burned at the stake or hung for treachery... who does that? I mean, if you have some data against my arguements, make those arguements, but there isn't a single person in this forum, or any forum who thinks any less of my arguements because you searched google for my screen name.

I've been active in newsgroups for more than 10 years. You come on web forum with your first post with nothing better than attacks on me. 

Here's the thread on 7thgencivic:

http://www.7thgencivic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84562

I've done alot of good posts there, taken slack on any forum that I bring up the alternative materials. 

I will stand by my comments about there being 1 factory to make all these butyl/asphaultic/mineral filled materials. How many of these no name companies do you really think have the facilities. 

I will also stand by my comments about jute being a good material for sound absorption. I have never reccomended any fiberous material getting wet. If you seal your doors correctly you have no need to worry about moisture. The part I reccomend jute is inbetween the mass loading and the plastic panels. AND YES they have JUTE in the car from the factory in the doors and inbetween metal panels and the plastic. 

Why don't you do some tests on the Grace products like you did on all the 
others. If you're unwilling to compare alternatives, you're arguement that they 
are unacceptable is moot. 

There once was someone who was going to do the professional tests, had alot of people send him samples, and it basically never happened. I think it now was a scam. 


I have many hobbies, I have told AZgrower that I admire his professional job 
before. There is nothing illegal about my interest in that hydroponics, 
unfortunately the only hobby place that is really into scientific growing is an 
illegal one. The hydroponic forums are the "DIYmobileaudio" of growing plants. I very much like watching things grow, haven't smoked dope in many years, never grown the stuff. I don't have anything to hide, feel free to ask me personally about my interests, but when you make references to me doing illegal activities, that borders on slander, and I am not a public official or celebrity, slander is a criminal offense. 

I grow orchids, which are very similar to hydroponics in their 
requirements, I also have had coral reef tanks with similar attention to 
nutrients in the system. 

Thank you Carter for being the only one to recognize the validity that Don has not even tested the Grace materials... AZGrower, thanks for at least recognizing Don has over stepped the boundaries. 

I will be posting alot of info from 7thgen that I had accumulated, argued before... pages upon pages shortly in the future for you to rebut. I just didn't want to get into a pissing match over this again like I have everytime I bring up cheap alternatives. But now you've resorted to personal attacks, and everyone will see what a chicken **** little douche bag you are. Let's argue.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Some numbers from ABC 

Grace Ice & Water Shield
40 mil
64.00 for 100 ft^
96.00 to do 100 ft^ @ 60 mil
Asphalt, No Aluminum constraining layer

Grace Ultra
30mil
202.99 for 200 ft^
101.50 to do 100 ft^ @ 60 mil
Butyl, No Aluminum constraining layer

MFM Peel & Seal
45mil
88.99 for 100 ft^
118.65 to do 100 ft^ @ 65 mil
Asphalt, Aluminum constraining layer

RAAMmat
65 mil
218 for 130 ft^
174.4 to do 100 ft^
Butyl, Aluminum constraining layer

Crazy ass 300 ft^ install

Grace IWS $288.00
Grace Ultra $304.50
MFM P&S $355.95
RAAMmat $523.50

So the RAAMmat will cost 235.50 more than the IWS - BUT you get an aluminum constraining layer and butyl. The aluminum layer has value. It is protective against heat and puncture and it increases the mats effectiveness as a barrier. I would personally choose to use $288.00 worth of RAAMmat, if cost were the most important factor.

These products are not just for mass loading (or even just mass loading and viscoelastic damping). They also are quite effective as barriers - keeping noise from penetrating the vehicle. The more materials the sound has to pass through, the better it will perform as a barrier. Adhesive Layer/Foil is a good start. That's one of the reasons that layering foam on top of the mat has such a dramatic effect. It also helps to absorb relections inside the vehicle. Closed cell foam is a better barrier than open cell, but open cell is a better absorber than closed. Closed cell is the best choice for all around use. Open cell should be reserved for areas that will not be effected by moisture.

I'm not specifically endorsing RAAMmat. I'm saying it is a very good product that can be had for a price that is close enough to the construction products to make one think twice about going down that road.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Rudeboy, I get the impression that you only came to this forum to carry on an old discussion that had gotten ugly. Do you think that's appropriate?


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## Ocelaris (Jun 23, 2005)

First let me ask you this, do you have any financial interest in the outcome of this?

Doing some digging on you myself, you apparently live pretty close to the Maryland Roofing center where I first got this Grace Ice and Water Guard. Why don't you give them a call and see how much a roll of grace ultra costs? That 209$ seems a bit high, but I could be wrong.

Lets go back to basics... here's a good faq:

http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/esupport/index.php?_a=knowledgebase&_j=questiondetails&_i=22

All about Sound Deadening
Sound deadening is much more than just making sure we don't have "panel rattle" and the like, it's a way of tuning the car to get the most pleasurable listening experience I can get, so we are also looking at reducing road and engine noise, as well as reducing reflections, preventing panel rattle and resonance. We are aiming to increase bass clarity, improve the dynamic range, reduce reflections and resonance, and generally get the best chance of having a system that sounds realistic whilst the car is both stationary AND in motion .

Ok, sound deadening or dampening in a car can be broken down into 4 basic categories:

Dampening / Mass loading
Blocking
Absorbing
Isolating

Each of these requires different products, and use different techniques to do their job, some products cover more than one of these, some don't.

Dampening / Mass Loading

This is probably the most common approach, usually, and unfortunately, the only aftermarket approach to "sound deadening" in a car. Resonance is the addition, or prolonging, of sound energy by the reflection or vibration of, in our case, panels. The idea of dampening is to reduce the resonant frequency of panels to below the frequencies usually played, by increasing mass. These are often bitumen based and is where the Marley tape and Aquaseal type products come into play, however, the best of the mass loaders are usually designed absorb vibration motion and convert it into low level heat, step forward Dynamat and Brown Bread etc. They usually come in sheet forms, or in easier to apply liquids.

Mass loading and dampening are usually used in the car to increase clarity of the bass lines by preventing panel resonance. Whilst it may help to reduce road noise, this is not it's primary role and is actually a bit of a side effect, as we'll see in a minute.

When applying we are looking for the best contact with the panel in question. Most effective panels to use it on are ones which have a ring to them when tapped and ones in close proximity to drivers, where, without de-coupling (see below) the chances of vibrations due to the drivers is obvious. It's this "dampening" that is going to give us the improvement in bass clarity, and the reason both the spl and sq lads drench their cars in it, to present the addition or prolonging of sound through vibration.

Blocking.

Blocking is pretty much as you'd expect, it's simply applying a barrier to stop sound. These barriers can be made of metals, such as Lead and Aluminium, as well as textiles such as rubber and loaded vinyl. The ability to block sound is called "transmission loss", and is usually directly related to the mass of the product. These products are ideally suited as they simply stop any sound from passing through them and have low resonant frequencies so reduce more low frequency energy from passing though. These products are usually available in "sandwich" form where they are couple to a closed cell foam, (see below), such as Noise Killer. It is also worth noting that the more convential "Dynamats" also provide some blocking ability�.Anyone ever wondered about the thin alloy covering to Extreme�.

Blocking or using barrier matting is the stuff that helps reduce road and transmission noise for that "Mercedes experience". It's best used on the floor pan, the bulkhead and the transmission tunnel. When applying it's usually in thick mats which due to the properties of lead, Ali' etc is reasonably easy to cut and mould to the required shape, it can lay over, rather than be stuck to the metal work.


Absorbing

Sound absorption is, imo, one of the most overlooked, but important aspects of improving the acoustic environment that is the car. Acoustically absorbent material works by causing the sound wave to slow down as it passes through the material due to friction, so the sound wave is effectively turned into low level heat. The ability to absorb noise is has the catchy title "Noise Reduction Coefficient", or NRC. Going back to what we have just read about the friction of the products obviously we expect thicker material to have a higher NRC than thinner stuff.

After market sound absorbing material usually comes in the form of acoustic foam, see Noise Killer, often specifically closed cell foam, however factory fit products include the carpet, and the underlay. Thicknesses of 15 and 25mm are fairly usual. It's worth noting at this point that the Dynamats and Brown Bread type of products are completely independent and do not absorb sound at all. However, sound absorbing materials are often coupled to the barrier products such as Lead and Ali.

In automotive applications the most important use has to be, imo, for use on over and under dash pads, as well as trimming behind door cards etc, although the bonnet liner is also another extremely useful application. Absorption can greatly improve the midrange and tweets by reducing the nasty "near field" reflections, as well as helping to reduce the possibility of unwanted echoic enclosures, such as the sound from kicks getting caught under the dash and pulling the stage down. Due to the texture of the products I would suggest sticking it (using some sort of spray glue), and then covering with a trim of your choice.

As an added bonus, and whilst related, is a pure by product, foam matting is great for stopping fixtures such as door cards, rattling against panels, such as doors, simply due to the movement of the vehicle..

Isolation

Finally, and an area that I think is quite cool, is the MOST overlooked area of sound dampening is de-coupling or isolation. This can either be done mechanically, through the use of shock absorbing sleeves or devices, see "isolatedsystems.com" or material which keeps a vibrating source independent, or simply products such as silicone or neoprene. Most textiles come as part of a sandwich coupled with the barrier and absorbing products we've already discussed.

In an in-car scenario we would use these de-coupler's to prevent vibrations from passing from a source, into panels, so they may be used between the midbass baffle and the door card, for example, or between the sub and the floor pan of the boot.

Summary

OK, there's a good starting point, I have left some bits out, such as the use of expanding foam, which we can now catagorise thus: Doesn't provide isolation, but will give absorption, mass loading and perhaps a little blocking sound deadening.

If anyone is interested in what I use: I have used Extreme on all the panels of my car, but with special attention to the roof lining, boot sides and doors. I have gone over this with Aquaseal, for good measure. I would have been better to use a decent blocking material to cover the bulkhead, transmission tunnel and floor pan, I used copious amounts of Marley tape - wrong product for the application, but the VW insulation is extremely good, and I ran out of cash! The sub enclosure in my car when fitted, will be using some neoprene de-coupling sleeves when bolted to the floor pan, and the midbass drivers will be de-coupled from the doors using layers of cured silicone. I will be using closed cell foam for the under and over dash pads, as well as on certain areas of the door card where the horns are causing some nasty reflections.

Reproduced from Forum Post
By [email protected]
http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=58457


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## Ocelaris (Jun 23, 2005)

From this, we gather that there is very little if any absorption coming from the mass loading sheets... the only thing they are accomplishing is lowering the resonance frequency of the doors, hence the only thing that matters here is mass.

IF it sticks, that's good enough for me. The aluminum may help it retain it's shape in warmer environments, but I've never had any come down from my roof or anywhere else.

As for Jute, I am not saying that there is not valid reason to use closed cell foam, however the expense is too much for what it produces. Have you ever had a chance to see what they use in expensive theatres or boiler rooms? Compressed fiberglass or rockwool, one from silicon, the other from rock... The sound absorption coefficients of these is enormous. Although they really only come in one shape, flat and hard. Hence why you see in studios jagged foam to redirect the sound waves. 

Jute is about as good an approximation of that as any I could find. I am not reccomending it to be used in moist environments, but it does a hell of a job in the door when sealed properly, and it's dirt cheap. 

Why do you find the butyl based products more desireable than the rubberized asphault? Stickiness? maybe if you live in a hot environment might make sense, but you and me living in the DC area, I'll tell you it sticks great even when it gets 100* out. What about smell? I'll concede the first few days it smelled, but after that I have never smelled it again. Weight? I think we're talking about buying stuff on a pound per pound basis, and if ultra is that much more expensive, maybe it is not an option. 

I still will reccomend Ice and Water guard for most installs, and i will get back to you on the price of Ultra on monday when they're open. The numbers I have worked up put Grace Ice and Water Guard at about 1/2 the price of any other mass loading sheet out there.


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## Ocelaris (Jun 23, 2005)

oh yeah, my apologies on 7thgen... some parts I was a tad rash... i didn't even remember that post... I thought you were referring to the sticky post...

This was found on the clubTc forum, I had no idea it was here, couldn't find the original 7thgen forum thread, but to give people an idea of my original posts, unedited, here is what someone posted:

http://www.clubsciontc.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3432


The following is from a friend that has already typed out my sentiments on the subject. I am not the original author, nor is this going to be grammatically perfect, words will be misspelled. I havent taken the time to go through it and edit that part yet, Im trying to get the information up as quickly as possible to start the $$$ savings as quickly as possible. The pics in the link at the end are from his install in a Civic si. Its all relative though. Im in no way saying this is the only proper way to accomplish this, Im just saying its a far cheaper alternative and is as effective, if not more effective than dynamat, fatmat, raamat, e-dead, brown bread, etc. I cant justify spending all that money to be able to get the same effect from something cheaper. That said, let it begin:I have added some pictures from my Sound dampening, note this is an Si, but the same will hold true for anyone... there-s no -done- pictures, everything was half way when taking those pictures, I ended up using alot more asphault sheeting and jute by the time I was done. 3M spray adhesive is your friend with the Jute and doors/back panelshttp://photobucket.com/albums/v511/Ocelaris/DIY/Sound_Dampening/best 100$ I ever spent, and that-s ALL I spent. As good or better sound proofing than someone who spent 10x as much. No offense to anyone who-s spent a small fortune on soundproofing their cars... the ONLY reason to use dynamat, fatmat, brownbread, or any of these kinds of materials is for weight. There are two kinds of sound dampening, mass loading and diffusion. You could poop on your door panels and have the same exact effect if your poop weighed as much as your expensive fatmat/dynamat/brownbread. All these products are asphault. Different ones have aluminum backing, plastic backing etc... the aluminum and small amount of alphault will stop very little if any noise from leaving your vehicle. What the asphault IS good for, is lowering the resonance freqeuncy of noisy door panels. Think of your door panels like a saw, hear how the saw twangs? sheet metal is like a huge steel drum (and Anything hard will conduct sound very well) Don-t even think of using spray foam, it actually amplifies the sound compared to dead air space inbetween your doors.Asphault sheeting comes from 1 factory in Indiana or Iowa (I forget which), and they-re all the same thing, asphault. Lead sheeting is what they use in some of the better home speakers, sandwhiched inbetween MDF. Ever wonder why they use such heavy material as MDF? You really think that your Sub is gonna make 1/2- MDF explode? Not even... 3/4- MDF is used because it-s really Fing heavy. Same reason they use that heavy ish in home speakers, because weight does not vibrate.My reccomendation. 33-x3- =99 sq feet of Grace Company -Ice and Water Guard-. Cost 65$ at a roofing supply store. It-s the same thing as dynamat original, fatmat, brownbread etc... except plastic backed instead of aluminum, so it-s easy to apply. I-ve been told people think it-s thinner than dynamat, and it might be, for the price, you can add 10 layers for the price of 1 dynamat layer. Your choice.Second type of sound proofing, dissipation of noise. The tool of choice here is fiberous (not rubber) carpet padding, also called -jute-. The idea is the same as why you put pillow stuffing in your sub box, the minute strands diffuse the vibrations and turn them into heat energy. I put carpet padding everywhere, and that made the biggest difference of all in my car, under the carpet, back panels, door panel, trunk. Cost = 3.50$ sq/yd mine cost roughly 25$.I guarantee if you could even find places for 100 sq feet of ice and water guard, and 40 square feet of carpet padding, your car would be leaps and bounds above anyone who spent 300-500$ on their sound proofing. I used 50 sq. feet of asphalt sheeting, and maybe 40 sq. feet of carpet padding and spent a total of maybe 100$ after everything was said and done.Oh, and don-t even bother putting asphault sheeting on your floor of your car, there-s already more than enough built into the vehicle for most of those panels, just use it on ones that when you bang on will make a noise, If you can bang on your floor of your car and it makes a noise, you got alot more problems than sound proofing. They say take a Sub, play it at 40hz and walk around to your entire car and see what rattles, I would say most of the time it-s plastic piceces, most people never get their systems loud enough to really shake their metal, and think by mass loading (adding mass to panels) they-ll somehow make it quieter? mass loading doesn-t stop sound, diffusion does, try the jute. Brownbread and several others of the B-Quiet line of sound-deadening products are NOT asphalt and DO NOT smell like -Ice and Water Guard- asphalt on a hot day nor on installation. You neglected to mention this lovely fact in your otherwise excellent post. Most people don-t like their $30,000 car smelling like asphaltSome sound dampening materials are actually not mass dampening, if you want to get into the different types, that-s another story. For example Dynamat extreme is vinyl stretchy material, and serves similar purpose of diffusion, turning vibrational energy into heat energy. These materials work just as good as if you put many layers of duct tape over your panels, they keep things from rattling, and tend to collect the noise. Point blank, these materials do not stop noise, merely turn what was many different panels into one large panel, it would be like welding the body panel onto the main chassis, only by the chassis-s inherent weight do you lower the resonance frequency. Often times simply collecting all the resonances into one solid material is enough for the panel to be heavy enough to stop vibrations. But, the only way you are going to get rid of the noise is with mass, hence mass loading.As to the smell, mine smelled for a day after, and haven-t smelled it since. Hot days don-t make a difference, never smelled. I think the -smell- issue is pretty much made up. As the asphault sticky side is what attaches to the doors etc... And if you don-t think people with 30,000$ cars don-t like the smell, then what about EVERY CAR already has asphault sheeting on it. Does your car smell like asphault when you buy it? No, because the smell goes away after a day or two. Take a car apart, see those maleable things stuck to your floor boards? They-re everywhere, and every car maker uses them.Adding weight helps maintain the directionality of the speakers instead of creating multiple focal points of sound (i.e. each vibrating panel is a sound producing point). Asphalt is a great choice, but is limited due to its smell, and also its limited adherence in vertical positions.Unfortunately the only way to get rid of sound is mass. You can pick lead or asphault. I myself pick asphault because it-s cheap. I personally don-t know of any other mass loading materials.quote: Adding a composite foam, i.e. Vcomp from B-Quiet helps eliminate road noise along with other noises by adding dead-space and aiding in the dissipation of noise. It is half the thickness of Jute and provides twice the effect. B-Quiet-s L-comp adds a lead barrier which aids this effect even greater. Jute works, BUT it is really damn thick and raises your carpet to new boundaries thus causing your carpet to no longer sit properly, your panels to no longer sit flush, etc. If you have tons of room, then use this cheap alternative, otherwise, use a vehicle specific product.By composite foam, what exactly do you mean? The couple of materials I have discovered in my search have been a sandwich of vinyl and open celled foam, which serves the same purpose as jute. There certainly are better materials than jute, home theatre installation companies have these compressed fiberglass panels that absolutely ate up sound, unfortunately compressed fiberglass is not maleable, and the regular fiberglass for insulation is too big (though it works just as well). And your right, jute is probably 3/8- thick, though if you have problems fitting panels back after adding 3/8- to your floors, that-s not my problem, mine worked fine, panels fit back perfect.Unfortunately there is a direct relationship between mass and thickness and sound diffusion. Either you get lots of mass (compressed fiberglass) which is unmaleable, or you get less compressed, like jute which is thicker. The more fibers in the path of the sound the better the diffusion. I don-t doubt that composite foam/vinyl isn-t a good material, I-m simply saying that for 1/10th of the price you can get 95% of the effectiveness of vehicle specific materials.my rule of thumb is to rap the panel with my knuckle, if it makes a noise you don-t like, stick your mass loading sheets there. the floor boards don-t make a twangy sound like one of those old big hand saws (if you-ve ever heard the kinda sheet metalish wowooowwowwowoowow noise). If you think of that noise, and that-s what you-re trying to eliminate, you-ll probably have a good understanding of what the purpose of those brownbread or dynamat sheets are for.I put some sheets on the outer skin, and on the inner skin. Keep rapping it with your knuckle until it quiets down (assuming you-re putting on more layers between raps ) The parts where the speakers go are also twangy sheet metal, I would put the sheets where your priorities are (probably doors first), and then back panels. Not sure as to the RSX-s trunk, but I-m guessing there-s some sheet metal there too, especially if you-re bouncing your sub off of your trunk there might be some high twangy sheet metal there as well. Depends alot on what your setup is.Doesnt asphault sheeting give off an odor?Nope. I think people who like to pay lots of $ made that rumor up to make themselves feel better about spending more $. You also might hear it doesn-t stick well. Well it does, everywhere. If it falls off, you probably didn-t clean the surface well enough. I just used a sponge with warm water and soap, then allowed it to dry... ok, so I prolly wasn-t that rigorous about cleaning, but some things I did clean... but it stuck everywhere, hasn-t fallen down. Of course any of the asphault based materials will smell while exposed to air, but once you put them on your car the smell goes away. It smelled the first day after installing it, but probably more just because the smell was in my garage than anything, after I took it out for a drive, never smelled it again. Dynamat, Fatmat, BrownBread, ice and water gaurd, are all asphaultic based liners, some have different compositions, and the expensive brands swear that they use less volatile (read smelly) materials in their brand than ice and water guard... of course ice and water guard makers can-t exactly stick up for themselves in this regards because they don-t expect people to use it for that purpose, so the bigger companies can spew all the invective they want and get away with it.... What about road noise?vinyl and -asphalt- based compounds aren-t going to absorb almost any road noise, you would be better off with an insulation type fiberglass... like the kind they line air ducts with, and/or surround air ducts with, they whole point of those is to stop the high pitched noise. I used carpet -jute- the cheap fibrous stuff on the inside and it made a huge difference... just need to do my headliner and work on those seals some... But seriously, home theatre people install those fiberglass sheets in home theatres that if you put your ear within 1 foot of it, that ear is effectively deaf because there is no sound at all reflected off of that compressed fiberglass sheet... in other words, if I had a choice, Id- line my whole car with that stuff if it were cheap and flexible... second best would be the stuff they line air ducts with, same stuff, but not as dense.Where can I buy this jute or the fiberglass stuff at, and what is it?-Jute- is kinda grayish jumble of fibers that they use for carpet padding, home depot or any hardware store with carpeting carries it. Now be forewarned, there is also the rubbery kind too, that stuff doesn-t help at all, so just make sure you get the grey fibrous nylon-ish type. It-s really cheap. As for fiberglass, The insulation part of a home depot/ Lowes carries lots of varieties, just imagine it being under your floor of your car, in your doors etc, and you-ll obviously want something thin and compactable. Basically, high pitched frequencies are dissipated in the exact same way that heat is kept in... with the exclusion of hard foams, hard foams actually will make more noise! So fibrous insulation is the goal, jute has been recommended, but I recommend home depot insulation, anything that you can fit in between yourself and the road will help. My test for good sound absorbers:Get one ear close to the material, and then listen to sounds around you, good materials should make your ear close to the material sound deaf, since it-s absorbing all the sound that normally would be reflected off hard surfaces into your ear. I rolled myself up in the jute in the home depot and rolled around in it to see how good it was... pretty good stuff Anyways you get the idea, home depots have lots of noise hopefully so you can test your materials out. I love going down to Lowes, they have a trillion different insulations, I want to try this pillow type stuff in my headliner, and take my doors off again and put more fiberglass stuff in it. And it-s LIGHT! The carpet padding is called -Jute- there really isn-t a brand name that I-m aware of, just ask any carpet person or home depot carpet department person and they-ll know exactly what you-re talking about. As for the fiberglass option, anything similar to the Pink Panther (pink fiberglass that goes in walls) except smaller and as compacted as you can find works well. In Europe they use rock wool instead, just basically a different melted rock that-s cotton candy-ish in texture/shape. Pink Panther is the only brand name I can think of.Quote: Sound dampening mat helps slightly for road noise, but it-s mostly for improving sound quality from speakers. Fatmat is a BAD idea inside the car. It will smell like tar for months, and maybe even forever. Dynamat has no smell at all and sticks much better. It-s worth it. Make sure you install it well by using a roller. Heat gun would be even better, although not needed.You can spend your money on the commercial stuff -fatmat-, -brownbread- etc... but the only thing those materials are is asphault sheeting. There is no other way to get the -rattle- to go away except weight. Now if you just have stuff clanking around, just try a few layers of the Grace (the company) Ice and water guard, and seal all your doors and panels. The smell goes away in a week at worse, and it-ll smell the first hot day, and then be gone. All the auto manufacturers use this stuff in the cars when they-re built anyways, you-re just adding more of it.You can get asphault sheeting much cheaper at other locations. But they will not cut down on road noise to any signifigance. You need something to absorb the high pitched sounds like jute, the cheap carpet padding you can find at home depot, don-t get the rubber stuff. I would use asphault sheeting to seal my doors and openings, and then use the jute on the inner panel. I have done this, it works well, cost less than 100$ for 100 sq feet of asphault sheeting (grace ice and water guard) and 100 sq. feet of -jute- the fabric type carpet padding.I-m planning to put some type of sound deadening material in my car... that fiberglass stuff ur talking about, how much does it go for and does it smell like anything?? bad that is?? not like asphalt? btw, i just wanna kno wut ppl have in their car to keep road noise down? does it work?? thanx for the help guysWell, for sound absorption, there are commercial varieties of vinyl/foam/asphault/lead sandwiches etc... that are probably the best sound absorption available. What home theatre companies use in their sound proofing materials is compressed fiberglass, I have 2 sheets of the stuff in my apartment, and it will suck up almost any noise. The problem with compressed fiberglass is that it-s rigid. So probably the next best thing would be if you could compress ALOT of fiberglass into openings and/or wherever, but that is kinda ridiculous, so a nice alternative that isn-t pokey, is the cheap carpet padding generically called -jute- because it looks like it-s woven out of millions of different materials, kinda greyish. This stuff works pretty well, and is very pliable. There is already a layer of this stuff under all of your carpeting... I added a second layer everywhere, and it helped alot. In home theaters, they seal and tie down anything that will vibrate, i.e. loose drywall by double drywalling... and then they-ll line the entire thing with that compressed fiberglass see this place: http://www.insulationworld.comAnd then they coat it with a nice fabric on top... I-ll give you the analogy in our cars... Seal everything. anywhere air can leak in, sound can leak in. So any panels that have outer skins and inner skins, seal with some vinyl or asphaultic sheeting (asphaltic is 10x cheaper), also any loose plastic pieces can be kinda tied or strapped down with the sheeting. Then I put a layer of jute on the inside of the doors, and all panels. The Jute is light, the jute is cheap, jute works great. The catch with jute is that you can-t let it get wet, it will mold, so that-s why I reccomend the sealing of the exterior panels. Oh and I-ll put a plug in again for Grace -Vycor- or -Ice and water guard- it has plastic backing. much easier to apply than the foil based, and the plastic stretches, so when you apply it, it doesn-t tear, and you don-t have any aspahult exposed (the smelly part) except the very edges. Do a good job and make 2 or 3 layers and you will only have a little exposed edges, which of course you could duct tape over if you were real anal about the smell, but I never noticed it, my wife complained the first time it got hot, but she says it went away after that. Hard things transmit noise, soft things absorb... Best to understand basically how it works rather than to just buy product X... because I-ve seen so many idiots put 3 layers of fat mat on their floors... IDIOTS... one claimed that there was no -OEM- asphalt sheeting... I graciously took his picture of his fat mat install, and circled the part he had not covered on the floor (read wasted 100$ on nothing) where there was a strip of opening... low and behold the asphalt sheeting was there. Not to sound pretentious, but there are a lot of people who can throw $$ at a problem and not think about it... I probably could be that kind of person, but I would never want to pay to not think, ok well we all do sometimes, but when you want the best no matter what, you have to think about it, and when it comes down to getting results, throwing $ at a problem just won-t get you the best results.In the very beginning, about the dynamat extreme losing everything... well, dynamat extreme is a vinyl sheet, not asphalt, so no smell, but no weight either. Imagine lots and lots of thick electrical tape, and that-s what Vinyl sheets are... if it smells, it probably weighs alot if it doesn-t, it-s probably vinyl. And they all stink, to certain degrees some are less stinky, but it-s so subjective, you can believe what you want. I call it all the same.Just used to having to wail against the man who tries to talk trash about the informational part of sound deadening because they bought 300$ of brand X on a whim and now vehemently defend their decision which lacks merit in many respects. You can get the best for a lot of $ no doubt, but for 100$ and a lot of time and thinking it over, you can get 95% of the best... and most people who drop major loot over sound deadening are using it so recklessly that they will never come close to matching the results that somebody with 100$ and a lot of effort will produce.More on Jute:But Jute is not foam, i.e. the stuff with the bubbles in it that most people have under their home carpets... foam usually is less helpful in sound deadening, the fabric type stuff is what you are looking for, it-s cheaper than the foam stuff. The idea is mass and lots of seperate particles to absorb and vibrate away the energy of the sound... so foam is one big piece and can-t dissipate the sound energy as well as individual fibers. Here is a good way you can think of sound absorption... Think of the ocean, and a beach, and if you-ve ever seen beaches that have eroded, and they put huge boulders or stones along the edge, those are the comparisons to look at. The waves of the ocean are the sound energy, and the boulders and the sand are our sound dampening materials. So with a beach, there are quadrillions of tiny particles, and each particle take-s it-s hit of the wave and kind of rubs it-s neighbor, and makes a little friction. Add up all that friction, and that is how the sand diffuses all the energy that the waves make. With the boulders (bad for saving beach erosion) each boulder is so big that the wave being fluid, it jsut moves out of the way and deflects the energy elsewhere... it doesn-t absorb anything, it just bypasses it. So when someone recommends putting the hard foam in the doors, that would be the equivalent of using boulders on a beach to protect from erosion.. it just speeds up erosion and noise transmission. Hard foam does not individually vibrate so it transmits instead of losing energy to friction.Compressed Fiberglass is the equivalent of beach sand... individual particles which by themselves are hard, but they are small enough to absorb the energy and vibrate their neighbors hence absorbing the noise.The Jute is our best cheap alternative having lots of nylon/cotton strands which work similarly to compressed fiberglass... and when I say compressed fiberglass, I don-t mean like the stuff you make custom sub boxes out of, I mean like the pink rolls you put in walls, except it-s compressed to be very dense. see here:http://www.insulationworld.com/default.aspSo we want a relatively hard material to reactsoft materials aren-t dense enoguh to really stop much noise...The Jute is a hard nylon, but compressed/sewn or whatever... Something like neoprene (open celled) foam would work, but it-s expensive and hard to come by. In the home audio world we use fiberglass, a very hard material, it-s just sintered glass, and the denser the better. So a light foam wouldn-t hurt, but it would not be as good a material as jute or open celled real rubber like from trees rubber, not a plastic. But you have to be real careful, as some will actually transmit/amplify the sound... best to stick with jute or a dense fiberous material.Now Hard foam like the spray expanding stuff will actually make it much worse, the closed cells, and the hardness of the foam when dry will very effectively transmit the sound right through the doors... so stay away from anything hard...Basically, Soft good, hard bad...q: So the -ice and water guard- adheres to the metal and the jute goes on the other side of the -ice and water guard-??Yes, the -Ice and Water Guard- is just a sticky film... think of it as giant tape. It-s a good idea to clean off the surfaces if there is any oil or dirt on the metal first, blast of windex works well...The Jute is just a big piece of cheap thick clothe/blanket it doesn-t stick by it-s self, but you can use the 3M adhesive spray, I just kinda layed it up there and smooshed the door panel back on (door panel, interior trim, carpet etc...). But you don-t want the jute getting wet, because it will mold (I think?) you want to use the ice and water guard to seal out air from the outer panels, and place the jute on the side closest to the interior. What works well for heating insulation works well for sound absorption also... Ie. sealing the outside out keeps the air from transmitting noise, then it has to go through the jute to come in the car.Q: Yeah, I-m trying to achieve weight on the doors but i also like the fact that sound will reflect better off of the aluminum. I-ll pay for it. i know there are generic products with aluminum backing but I-m too lazy to find themYou-re not going to get any sound reflection off that aluminum that you wouldn-t already be getting off of your STEEL DOORS!Here are some sound absorption coefficients for various materials... And the attached picture the two highlighted areas are plain and Aluminum backed fiberglass insulation... I-ve taken the difference of the absorption and the aluminum backing only makes a difference in the 250hz region... But the fact that you already have 2 door panels makes it moot... Not to mention the whole idea is to ABSORB sound, not reflect it... the only reason they have the aluminum on it, is because it withstands higher temperatures than plastic. In the original purpose of these materials they were meant to seal heat inside boilers, so aluminum was the product of choice instead of plastic. But when they applied this material to roofs and automotive purposes it became plastic because it makes a better water/heat/cold/temperature barrier than aluminum. The 70X i.e 703, 705, 701 compressed fiberglass sheets are for home acoustical treatments, boiler liners, and duct lining (though honestly you don-t really want fiberglass in a vent)... anyways, they have plain (no backing), plastic, and Aluminum backed. The only difference between the two highlighted ones, is the aluminum backing. You can see that at frequencies below 250hz (baritone singer) the aluminum will block some frequencies, but above 250hz it will substantially increase the noise reflected. these numbers are all percentages... so the difference (aluminum sheet) at 2000hz is -.39% meaning it-s going to make almost 40% more noise than without it... The human ear is most -sensitive to the 800-2000hz range because that is the region where the human voice is (hence good reason to be more sensitive to it). So I reccomend the non-aluminum backed asphault sheeting.________125_____250_____500_____1000____2000____40 00____NRC Plain____0.11____0.28_____0.68_____0.9_____0.93___ _ 0.96____0.7Aluminum_0.17____0.71____0.59_____0.68_____0.54___ __0.3____0.65__________________________________________________ _____________Differnce_0.06___0.43____-0.09____-0.22___-0.39___-0.66___-0.05http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htmIf you really want that aluminum backing... do this. Get 2 bottles of the 3m Super adhesive (10$x2=20$) and a big roll of aluminum foil (5$) then glue it ontop of the Ice and Water guard, and you-ll still be 40$ ahead which you can buy enough jute (which I highly reccomend for it-s higher frequency absorption and cheapness) to soundproof your entire car.http://www.photosandstuff.com/everythingbacon/chart1.bmpThe point was to compare two identical products, used for sound absorption, one with the aluminum backing, one without. Subtract the two from each other and you get the equivalent of the aluminum reflections similar to what we are looking at. If you want your music loud, buy better amps and speakers. Sound reflections are not the way to get it louder. The important part is to make two sealed sections, one behind the speaker, one in front of it. That way you don-t get sound waves cancelling each other out. The same could be said of poorly mounted speakers, with air escaping between the speaker mount. Think of high end speakers... do they have sheet metal behind them? no, they have very heavy wood (sometimes lead lined) and some sort of foam or fabric. The studio environment you speak of has lots of acoustical foam... The purpose being to disrupt waves from bouncing around the room, and secondly to absorb the noise. In perfect sound testing environment, you would try to minimize the room and rely almost soley on the speaker. Our Cars are not a perfect sound environment, we have wayyyy too much glass, plastic etc.. (hard surfaces) that give too much reflections as is. A good sounding car will attempt to minimize those reflections.And -reflections- is not what asphault sheeting is meant to stop. It does nothing for reflections. You need a soft surface like carpet padding or acoustical fiberglass sheeting (do some research, that-s what the best theatres use) to stop reflections. reflections are only for higher end frequencies. Anything that weighs will reduce resonance. Doesn-t matter if it-s poop or asphault sheeting. Feel free to waste your money on heavy crap.I was joking about putting aluminum foil on there... maybe YOU didn-t get the joke. The plastic door panel already reflects most of the noise from INSIDE the car... the point is that aluminum does squat for resonance. The Jute blocks outside noise. Lower you Ambient noise level 3db and it-s the equivalent of making your speakers 3db louder. You want to block outside noise and only let your speakers play out of the hole they-re supposed to.edead, fatmat, dynamat original, grace and water guard are all the exact same stuff. The only purpose they serve is if you have alot of bass and want to stop the sheet metal from vibrating. It also will stop plastic pieces if you use this to tie them down with. Any sort of mass dampening (i.e. above) will not stop any road noise. You need an acoustical absorbing material. Jute will do wonders. You can spend 100$ on dampening and absorbtion (66$ for 109 sq. ft of Grace Ice and water Guard, and 44$ on Jute) and get 300 times quiter ride and better sounding acoustics than someone who pays 300$ for -show- asphault.Honestly, I don-t care what you use, the materials are pretty much the same, and I-m not sure what you-re arguing about. If you go look at the data I provided, they-ll show that the aluminum foil does provide some reflection. That was your point no? I-ve gotten in many arguements with people about this. And you want to know what they all have in common? They already dropped alot of $$ on their -special- material and now have to justify to themselves why they did the right thing. Well, I-ll tell you what, I-ve made the wrong decision many times, but my ego doesn-t get in the way and try and disprove the truth... I feel stupid yes, but next time, I would take what I know and do things the right way.So go get some empirical evidence about the aluminum layer if you don-t understand mine. The fatmat quote is stupid, -thinner, lighter, yet 4x more effective-... you know what? what is the goal of the asphault sheeting??? WEIGHT. There is no other purpose to the layer than weight. Honestly, go check out some acoustics books or somthing. So how do I start to install it?Covering up the holes is an important part of sealing the external noises out. Air transmits noise, and especially in the doors, it makes a rear chamber for the speakers so air doesn-t flow between the inner and outer chambers (skins per se)...You basically add it on until you-re satisfied that it-s heavy enough not to resonante... I wrapped the door skins with my knuckles and you can hear the frequency that it makes go down as you add more asphault sheeting. I put some on the exterior panels (through the holes) and then covered the holes up and did a bunch on the door. Do the knuckle rap test... if it makes a nice solid noise instead of a twangy noise... you-re good to go. Imagine a saw, the old school ones you used to cut wood with... if you can imagine that sound, and adding weight to it, until it-s resonating frequency is below a certain point, you have the idea of what you-re trying to accomplish.-Jute- is very light, like a blanket sort of... I used the 3M adhesive spray and that held it very well, though in the floor I didn-t use any, though now that I think about it, it might be a good idea. The 3M adhesive spray is with the paint stuff at home depot/lowes etc... comes in a big aerosol can, spray both sides, wait a bit for it to become tacky, stuff holds any and all fabrics great.Jute like any good sound absorber has lots of air pockets which will encourage the growth of bacteria. Bacteria like plant roots love a moist but oxygenated substrate (surface to breed on). Actually the fiberglass I was referring to, which is made of sand/silicate; in Europe they use alot of Rockwool which is just basalt/granite based fiberglass... And if you know what rockwool is, it-s the ideal hydroponic medium which grows plants in most major hydroponic Gardens which provide vegetables for us. So Jute, like Fiberglass and Rockwool inherently have great bacteria growing potential; but in themselves they-re not going to melt or anything. Just treat it like carpet, you wouldn-t stick carpet in the engine bay or anywhere else that might get wet, jute is the same way. It-s not going to mold if you have it insulated, that-s why I like the cheap asphault sheeting to isolate moisture from outside the car door panels.I was at Lowes this weekend, and noticed they didn-t have any of the fabric type of carpet padding that I have found to work well... at some point I supposed they may give up on the nylon threaded carpet padding, it does pretty much suck for carpet padding, but does well for our purposeswould you say its as quiet as the acura tsx interior or a standard luxury interior? i-m sure it will be hella of an improvement of what i-m hearing now.I wouldn-t say it-s as quiet as any luxury car necessarily, for the amount of work we do... i.e. luxury cars have the car stripped, including the dash out and seats, trunks... they can make air seals much better than our cars have. Also simply their materials weight more, thicker glass, thicker sheet metal etc...Luxury cars as we know tend to be heavy and make up for it in bigger engines... our cars are more efficient, less power, lighter car... I don-t want anybody to get their hopes up that they-re going to instantly have a luxury quiet car, but you can probably cut the sound level inside the car by half. A little bit of work will make alot of difference.Everyday I get into my car and appreciate less noise... took me 3 days of full work, but I did alot of things at the same time. Worth every penny IMO. I even convinced my wife to do the same after she heard the difference...If you just did the doors and floor/rear seats you-d probably get alot of benefit. taking the headliner, rear quarter panels, and dash apart (in order of difficulty) will make improvements, but in diminishing quantity. My friend-s mercedes S500 has like 1/4- thick glass... (silent almost) It-s alot of work, but if you-re already set yourself on sound dampening (dynamat etc...) why not throw some jute in there, make yourself a good seal with the asphault sheeting (i.e inner door skin and outter door skin) and then put some jute inbetween the panel and yourself... I what I am trying to stress is the whole upper frequency part of noise reduction. Sure you could add 2- worth of asphault sheeting, but at that weight cost, you could have a sheet of jute or fiberglass which weighs almost nothing comparatively.Conclusion of sorts:High density fiberous materials are the best high frequency noise blocker. The problem with the fiberglass stuff is that it-s very light... they make compressed fiberglass, but it-s rigid and expensive. The foam mixed carpet padding will work, but not nearly as well as the fiberous stuff... the open cell foam is what they use in expensive acoustical treatments that are bonded with some sort of vinyl or asphaultic sheeting... combined with an asphault sheet, it-s very helpful. You want to avoid hard foams though, those will transmit noise like a speaker, Loose materials = better. Do this, hold part of the carpet padding, whether it-s foam or fabric and talk or yell into it... or just hold it near your ear and see which one sounds more -lively- i.e. which one sounds more dead... the foam I think will block some noise, but probably you-ll hear more coming off of it than the fabric. With the compressed fiberglass sheets in home theatres, if you-re ear is within a foot of the sheet, that ear sounds deaf, like almost no sound is being reflected from it at all... that should be what you judge a material, literally the sounds in home depot/lowes etc... all those high pitched noises, when you hold your ear up to it, which one makes them go away the best... I-ve wrapped my head in the jute before and walked around the store to prove it to somebody once... if you can make associations about the properties of materials, you-ll have a very good head start when you decide where to put the materials in your car.PRICE COMPARISON:Grace Ice and water Guard108 sq. ft = 66$ (for me a while back w/tax) picked upRoll Length 11.0 m (36 ft)Roll Width 914 mm (36 in.)Roll Size 10.4 m2 (108 ft2)Roll Weight 15.3 kg (33.6 lbs)Thickness, Membrane 1.02 mm (40 mil)Fatmat100 sq. ft = 100$ plus shipping, with shipping = $129.98 Shipping Weight 31 Pounds Installation Weight 23 Pounds Thickness 45 Mil That-s $0.61 a square foot for the 40mil grace ice and water guardThat-s $1.29 a square foot for the 45mil Fatmat Difference? 5mil but that 5mil might be because Fatmat has an aluminum backing... Grace ice and water guard has a plastic one... Which one would you rather have? If somebody wants to do the calculations to compensate for the 5mil difference, be my guest, but 5mil is not 5mm 5 mil is like a piece of paper... and the grace ice and water guard weighs more anyways, and that-s what you-re trying to achieve, weight on the doors... in addition to also pinning plastic pieces down and joining undamped metal parts. Data taken from:http://www.na.graceconstruction.com...na.graceconstruction.com...d/GIWS-060J.pdfand http://www.fatmat.com/fatpaks/100.htmAdhesion qualities of Grace:Check out the Adhesion... 3 pounds per square inch on plywood. If the surface is dry, free of dirt and oils, should stick more than enough and not come off ever... if you stick it together, it ain-t never coming apart. PRODUCT DATAProperty Value Test MethodColor Gray-BlackThickness, Membrane 1.02 mm (40 mil) ASTM D3767 Method ATensile Strength, Membrane 1720 kN/m2 (250 psi) ASTM D412 (Die C Modified)Elongation, Membrane 250% ASTM D412 (Die C Modified)Low Temperature Flexibility Unaffected @ -29°C (-20°F) ASTM D1970Adhesion to Plywood 525 N/m (3.0 lbs/in. width) ASTM D903Permeance (max) 2.9 ng/m2s Pa (0.05 Perms) ASTM E96Material Weight Installed (max) 1.3 kg/m2 (0.3 lb/ft2) ASTM D461


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## Ocelaris (Jun 23, 2005)

Don, reading your page further, you copied my **** word for word... 

"As you apply sound deadener, rap on the panel with your knuckles or a small rubber mallet. You will be able to hear the change in resonance. After you apply a layer, tap some more. This will help you determine where you need to add layers. Tap, apply, tap apply, until you are satisfied with the result."

http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/howto/


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## Ocelaris (Jun 23, 2005)

Here is my original thread on 7thgencivic which used to be a sticky:

http://www.7thgencivic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84562

I'm glad to see your site has become a sticky, as we're basically arguing for the same thing, but I think you didn't give the cheap alternatives a fair shot. That pretty much sums up my arguement. 

Besides the fact you started slandering me for getting this thing started... that's what I don't get. I pretty much give up, cede you to be more knowledgeable about it, and you attack me... that's bull crap.


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

Hey man, that was a complete waste of server space for you to post that post on Page 4...just plain unnecessary...


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## Ocelaris (Jun 23, 2005)

My apologies, text really isn't a huge storage problem though, that whole post cost maybe 50kB... 

I wanted to get that info that I had posted elsewhere out there. If you feel I should erase it, let me know. I just want this to be over and Don can post whatever he wants.


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## carter (Aug 20, 2005)

Ice Guard MAY not be as good as the other products and I'm not saying that asphalt is better then butyl but NO tests has ever been done comparing Ice Guard and other asphalt bases deadener.

Essentially, they are made the same way and have pretty much the same properties.

Ocelaris HAS used it and says it lives up to HIS expectations. I just don't see how this thread got into this hole hydroponic war!


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

carter said:


> I just don't see how this thread got into this hole hydroponic war!


What war?


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Wow this thread blew up since i went to work.

All i can say is dag, and my Raammat does wonders, and mated with Ensolite, i LOVE RICK for bringing this material into the mainstream (online mainstream for that matter), i'd have his baby if my anatomy would allow it, (still probobly wouldn't even if i could..........too much pain)


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

AzGrower said:


> What war?


I was wondering too but you have to read deep then realize that, well, umm, we have an obsessed person who likes digging up dirt  It's like UseNet


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

I sure am shocked to see this here, we are usually such an easy going bunch of enthusiasts

Maybe it best if we all just take a deep breath and relax a bit, there are far to many worse things in the world around us than our delicate feelings about our hobby (I may be in business but car audio is a life long insterest and I have always considered everyone my fellow enthusiast first and foremost)

Sincerly,
Rick


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

chad said:


> I was wondering too but you have to read deep then realize that, well, umm, we have an obsessed person who likes digging up dirt  It's like UseNet


Thats an easy fix..NPDang should take care of him...


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

demon2091tb said:


> Wow this thread blew up since i went to work.
> 
> All i can say is dag, and my Raammat does wonders, and mated with Ensolite, i LOVE RICK for bringing this material into the mainstream


X 2 braddah...


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## dodgerblue (Jul 14, 2005)

jesus , what would happen if i replaced the this thread with a new one like hmmmmm GIRLS GONE WILD!! this post should only take up about 1kb so no worries!!! -hey az-grow bridgeport ebenezer winter ale from portlan org.-6.4 perc. smooth and tasty!!


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## Ocelaris (Jun 23, 2005)

Thanks Rick, I totally respect your opinion and your work, as well as everyone eles here, and was trying to leave my past behind me. I can be caustic sometimes... I have been on here for several months, and I like to think in the presence of an actual owner of the business, I have been respectful. 

I blew up, if I offended anyone, please take it as internet frustration and nothing personal, because I like this forum and want to stay and learn from everyone here. I consider myself a newbie in this crowd. what I learned or posted was to get the message out, and sometimes you have to shout when there is no one to listen to you... but in a forum like this, I usually know better than to make trouble. 

Don has done some excellent work, way better than any that I have seen, and I have the utmost respect for that. Leave me alone please.


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## Derek (Jun 4, 2005)

i pooped green once.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> Rudeboy, I get the impression that you only came to this forum to carry on an old discussion that had gotten ugly. Do you think that's appropriate?


No, I come to this forum to learn about DIY mobile audio. I'm really tired of sound deadening topics and stay away from them unless I have some practical advice to give or see something dangerous going on. One of the great side effects of SDS has been an overall reduction in the number of Dynamat vs FatMat threads that do nothing to advance our understanding of the issues involved. 

This isn't my fight. I have said repeatedly that if people want to use construction products, they should do so with the knowledge that there are potential downsides that should be considered. More power to them if they make that choice - just please do it with eyes open. Do what you want, but don't pretend you are getting Dynamat Xtreme at Home Depot.

Statements that the construction products are identical to the better sound deadening products only muddy the waters and are dangerous. There is already a lot of dishonesty in the automotive sound deadening business. That's problem 1. People making baseless claims that imply that even the honest companies are ripping people off by selling products with no advantages over the construction materials are problem 2.



 Ocelaris said:


> First let me ask you this, do you have any financial interest in the outcome of this?


Since the assertion has been made, here and elsewhere, that I am profiting from this - linking me to problems 1 and 2 above - let me set the record straight. It would be nice, but it certainly isn't true. The only money this has generated has been from the Google ads. Google prohibits the publication of actual numbers, but let's just say it has bought about two tanks of gas a month for my Civic - not nothing, but not worth doing in light of the stupid amount of time this has absorbed. I came into this not expecting any financial return and vastly under-estimating the amount of time it would consume.

I first came up with the idea for SDS while trying to sort this out for my own use. The more I read, the less sure I was. I proposed the idea on a few forums, including 7thgencivic. It was met with a very negative response, for reasons that still aren't clear to me. I decided to go ahead on my own. I was able to get a few samples donated and bought the rest. I did my rudimentary tests and posted them to the site. I expected 50 people or fewer to look at it, but I had promised people I would post it and did. I added the Google adds after I saw a lot of traffic hitting the site. I never imagined this would turn into something that would lead some companies to change their product lines or do faked versions of the tests. I wasn't looking for power or fame, I just wanted to know which sound deadener would do the best job for the least money. Before I decided to test these things for myself, I was ready to order a bunch of Grace Ultra and some rolls of aluminum foil barrier - until I relized that there were less expensive, and likely better, options out there.

The site went up in August. More than 10,000 people have read it since then. I have received hundreds of e-mails from people who have found it helpful. It has been pretty rewarding. I have also heard from many people who used either construction products or construction products resold by some of the less honest suppliers in the business. Some have done well and enough have had terrible results to concern me about the practice. 



Ocelaris said:


> I will stand by my comments about there being 1 factory to make all these butyl/asphaultic/mineral filled materials. How many of these no name companies do you really think have the facilities.


This is just factually incorrect. There are several factories, but it isn't a question of 1 factory versus each company making their own products. False dichotomy. As far as I know, none of the companies selling sound deadening mat are manufacturers. That would be crazy. What distinguishes the good products is QC, support and the specifications their products are manufactured to. Same as anything else. The idea that there is 1 source, or more accurately, that there are just a few sources, does not support the notion that this stuff is all the same. These manufacturers produce a wide range of products.



Ocelaris said:


> Why don't you do some tests on the Grace products like you did on all the
> others. If you're unwilling to compare alternatives, you're arguement that they are unacceptable is moot.


This is absurd. Grace Cnstruction has done testing on all of their products that is far better than anything I could ever do. The information is freely available on their site - along with specs and MSDS data. If there was as much information available on sound deadening products as there is on construction products, my tests would not be needed. Furthermore, some of the products in SDS are in fact Peel & Seal.

Questions have been raised about my bias in this. I will freely admit that having now spent 8 months or so, up to my neck in this, I am sort of biased. I have had extensive contact with several of the companies involved in the tests and several that are not.

I chose RAAMmat and the Damplifiers from Second Skin as the best of the bunch. Damplifier for extremely high quality and RAAMmat for quality and value. These results were not influenced by contact with Rick and Anthony, which really didn't start until I was done. That contact has only served to strengthen my level of comfort with my choices. Both guys care about the products they sell and stand behind them. Both have been very forthcomng about the composition and specs of their products. I also should say that I have been impressed with Cascade, but haven't tested any products. Dynamat Xtreme is very good as are some of the other butyl based mats out there. Most of them are much more expensive than my choices. If someone has special access, say Dyna X at dealer cost, then that may be the best choice for them. I'm just saying that for most of us, one of my two choices will get you where you want to go, at a fair price and with full support.

So yeah, I am biased in favor of companies that care about what they do and stand behind their products. I have freely offered my advice - to Rick and Anthony and several others on how I thought they could clarify their marketing message. Some advice has been taken, some has not. Several of the companies involved in this need to keep their message unclear because they can not compete on facts. Fact is, I like Rick and Anthony. My belief is that the facts should be out there. Let everyone compete on a level playing field. Don't tell me that your asphalt mat is butyl. Don't tell me that the foam you sell is a special formula that you can't reveal. If I know what I am buying I can choose for myself and so can everybody else.

As for the asphalt vs butyl debate. The original versions of RAAMmat and Damplifier - Dynamat too for that matter, where asphalt products. They upgraded to butyl because they were having problems with the asphalt. This increased their costs and put them at a competitive disadvantage with the asphalt products dominant at the time. Why would they do that if there was no reason to do so?

Dragging threads into this that are no more substantiated than the original assertion does nothing to advnce the case. This is really basic stuff that can be reduced to numbers. Unfortunately it is too expensive to do real efficacy testing, and because of the state of this market, we have to look at product claims in terms of their basic ability to serve the purpose for which they are being sold. Will they stick? Will they melt? Will they smell bad? No one here would tolerate claims made for audio components that were not backed up by some sort of measurements by which they could be compared to other products. Same thing with this.

The transition form asphalt to butyl has made this process accessible to everyone. Sound deadening is a hugely useful thing to do. When the only things available where construction materials, it was pretty much limited to hard core enthusiasts willing to take risks for the results. Butyl mats make it possible for anyone to improve the acoustical properties of their vehicle without taking any chances at all.


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## carter (Aug 20, 2005)

AzGrower said:


> What war?


Many replies have been deleted or changed


I just think it blew out of proportion because someone gave an opinion on a product he IS using. I just think since he HAS installed it in his car and finds that the product meet HIS expectations that he has a right to say it.


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Thanks guys, really great to see things get sorted out amoungst us and get back to the normal operational mode, helping each other out. 

Unfortunately there have been some shady practices in this industry including product claims and unseemly behavior in marketing tactics. SDS has made significant impact on all of us smaller companies and I am sure the big players are well aware of what is going on. 

Fortunately for us, we had reached our long time goal of having an affordable butyl based product, long before SDS became a reality. 

Though we had very few problems, less than 1 out of 1,000, with our original and upgraded three times asphaltic based version, one single problem was far to many and it really concerned me quite deeply. I do not know exactly why I have become the person that I am but I have a very strong loyalty and desire to help everyone I can in our great hobby to succeed in reaching their goals and it is painfull to endure even one single failure. To the best of my knowledge I have taken care of everyone that has had an issue with out products with the exception of a couple that just did not want to do anything about it, even to the point of offering to redo the entire deadening install at our shop, on our dime, with our new version. For those to far away we have shipped replacement product, made a cash settlement to thier satisfaction, etc. If there are any unresolved cases, we either do not know about it or have not heard back once we made an offer to help them out. 

Maybe I care because of the deep rooted curiosity and attitude I seem to have been born with, why I am a life long DIY guy. I can even remember bending the middle prongs on a fork when I was 3 so I could plug it into the wall to see what it would do, 50 years ago! (yes,we had advanced beyond kerosene lamps by then

At twelve I wound the fastest slot car motors I ever saw, since we lived 50 miles from the nearest track I seldom was able to run my cars but when I did, in a straight line, they blew away every other car. Handling was a bit tougher because of lack of track time but they were decent. 

Though we have a few distributors and dealers we do not pursue them, they come to us, DIY is where our heart is and will always be. We have turned down some significant investment money to take our business into much bigger waters which would result in ALOT more income for us but just said sorry, not interested, it would abandon the core of who we are, DIY and proud of it

I am glad SDS came out, it could of been very painful for us if we had not already moved into the butyl realm, we were lucky in that regard. It has made many fellow enthusiasts aware of the real differences in product quality and value and given them a true choice in what is best to fit their needs. It has also forced(to a degree in some cases) some changes to business practices by some companies and their product lines which is good for all enthusiasts even though more real competition for us, I welcome this whole heartedly! There are literaly millions of potential customers out there and the market is barely tapped at all, hundreds of thoughsands of new enthusiasts arrive each year, we just want a small share of this very big pie, it will be enough for us and enough for all the others in this business we share. I believe lifting the standards and awareness will just make the marked that much better for us all, then everybody wins, those in the business and those learning about the improvements they can make to their pride and joy, thier vehicles

Rick


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## mr tibbs (Dec 18, 2005)

Holy thread Batman!! In my previous install I was unaware of some of the information that is now out there. I used some ED stuff and was not satisified at all, after a while it did come off and because of thing I know now I did not even bother contacting ED. Now knowing what I do know after reading many threads on different websites I will be using Rammat because of the product and the customer support. See, I'm the kind of guy that does want the best bang for my very cheap buck, but after dealing with what I did I know know I need the customer support of a GOOD company. I like the fact that Rick is around the boards and is an honest to god good guy lending a hand when he can. That is much more than I can say for some other owners of other companies. 

Cilff notes: Yeah for Rick, down with ED!! Just my .02 cents

PS Rick I will be getting a hold of you in the near future for the next project!


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

dodgerblue said:


> -hey az-grow bridgeport ebenezer winter ale from portlan org.-6.4 perc. smooth and tasty!!


Here are 3 beers I bought today (a 6er of each of course) I recommend them to you...
*Avery Brewing (Colorado) - White Rascal*
Brewed with a hint of corriander and orange peel, its a Belgian white ale, its very different tasting, but very tasty. I drank one tonight watching the sunset...perfect beer for a perfect mood
*Dogfish Head (Delaware) - Raison D'Etre*
A bit darker, mahogany color Belgian styel ale that is brewed with green raisans. Very nice beer for any mood
*North Coast Brewing (No. California) - Pranqster*
Another Beligan Blond Ale, but not a regular ale, a Belgian STRONG ale, it comes in at just under 8%. This is one of my old time favorites...

Another recommendation out of Portland would be *Hair Of The Dog Brewing - Adam*. Its an Olde English Ale and has a nice AC of over 10%. But dont be fooled, its very easy and pleasant to drink. 

The shop I get my beer from no longer deals with the distributor that used to sell him the Hair of the Dog beer, so I cant get it any more in Tucson. If you find some in the Phoenix area, let me know. Good thing I still have 2 bottles aging in my pantry. Like a fine wine, good quality beer is not pastuerized and contains live yeast, in which you can store the bottles in the dark for up to 5 years, and the AC only gets stronger with age cause the bacteria continue to produce alcohol. Plus the flavours change and become more complex as it gets older. 

Here is some extra reading for you: www.beeradvocate.com This website has allowed me to find some really really great American brewed beers that are just outstanding in taste and quality.


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## Ocelaris (Jun 23, 2005)

Have you given beer brewing a try AZGrower et all? It's another hobby I've dabbled in... had a few good Indian Pale ales, and some simpler stuff. You guys are making me want to bring out my beer brewing equipment, haven't made any in a long time. 

Here is a store close to me that I have gotten kits from before. Haven't done a full mash yet, but eventually I'll buy a turkey boiler and have at it...

http://www.annapolishomebrew.com/


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Deshutes Brewery This thread sure turned into a great one now

I have had local beers in around 30 countries and so many here there is no way to remember them all. I have considered home brewing for some time now but just to busy for another hobbie

I try to age some of the better beers but I end just just drinkng the great ones and leave the also rans in the fridge for when I run low on the good stuff. 

Lately I have bought quite a few Deschutes Brewery beers and I have liked every single one. The Cinder Cone Red Ale is quite pleasant as well as a long time favorite, Black Butte Porter. Deschutes has won alot of awards over the years, internationally on some, pretty cool website too,
http://www.deschutesbrewery.com/Brews/default.aspx Look around, they have alot to offer

My favorite all time brewer is Stone Brewing in San Marcos CA, Stone Pale Ail being my all time favorit beer and cannot get it up here. They have been offered big money to go national and just refuse to do so. Before we decided to leave So Cal they were going to start sponsoring my car, one of of the few things I really miss, my buddies first of course, then the beer, hmmm, I think anyway, lol!

Stone Brewing 

Enjoy!

Rick


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

Hey, Rick, I'm right in North County (Encinitas) and would be happy to cruise over to San Marcos, pick up whatever you're keen on, and send it on up to you. Let me know if I can be of any help, o.k.?


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

that would be sweet indeed!

Sadly, though, I do not think you can legally do this and I would certainly not want to have you take the risk. The offer means alot to me though

Thanks,
Rick


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

You northern Cali guys dont know what your missing! North Coast Brewing, Medicino Brewing Company, and Lost Coast Brewing (Eureka area) are all great breweries! Not to mention Anchor Brewing in San Fran. Deshutes Brewing...hey they make Jubilale, which I have one in my fridge right now, and in my hand...well its a Stone Pale Ale...funny.

Ever go down to So Cal? If so visit Alesmith Brewing in San Diego...one of my favs...


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

raamaudio said:


> that would be sweet indeed!
> 
> Sadly, though, I do not think you can legally do this and I would certainly not want to have you take the risk. The offer means alot to me though
> 
> ...


Its not illegal to ship beer you know, you just need a license and a permit to do so. There are several online shops you can buy specialty beer from, one is LiquidSolutions. Every year when I take my company trip to Holland, I bring back a suitcase full of great Belgian beer. Like Hertog Jan, Palm, Duvel, Leffe, Chimay, Hoogarden, Grimbergen, Delerium Tremens, La Chouffe, etc...

Oh I forgot to ask you Rick, since you are keen on Stone, do you like their Old Guardian Barleywine...now thats some stout stuff.

Here are a few pics of my drunk ass at this last year's Tucson Beer Festival, I was in a weird drunk mood and proceeded to flip off the camera all night, so dont take that personally  :









I went there with some colleagues from work, on the left is a Dutchman...Hans and on the right is Martin, he is English


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Hey Az, i see you did notice in both of those pics with you in it, your flipping the camera off in both............how do the foreighners take the middle finger...?

J/w really because i know some cultures it means other things lol.

Er i like beer too.......best i've tried so far is yuing-ling(sp?), we sell it at my resturaunt and its pretty good. As far as non-mainstream, egh havn't tried many........just turned 21 in oct. and only been to a flying saucer once.


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

demon2091tb said:


> Hey Az, i see you did notice in both of those pics with you in it, your flipping the camera off in both............how do the foreighners take the middle finger...?
> 
> J/w really because i know some cultures it means other things lol.
> 
> Er i like beer too.......best i've tried so far is yuing-ling(sp?), we sell it at my resturaunt and its pretty good. As far as non-mainstream, egh havn't tried many........just turned 21 in oct. and only been to a flying saucer once.


No reason other than just to be stupid and silly...

So you live in PA? There is a great beer that comes from there, its called
Stealth Tripel and its from Selin's Grove Brewing Company in Selinsgrove, PA.


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

I bought Jubilale by the case for like $22 at Costco in Medford OR, loved it but they have others I like even more

These are the only brews we have on hand at the moment:

Deschutes:
-Black Butte Porter (not much into it right now but the smoothest Porter I have ever had.

-Cinder Cone Red Ale, love it!

-Mirror Pond Pale Ale, excellent.

-Cascade Ale, pretty tame but very enjoyable. 

______________

Bridgeport:
-Blue Heron, pretty nice overall, need to have another one or two later though to fully realize how much I may like it.

--Not on hand but I really like the , India Pale Ale, double fermented, alot of bite, sometimes I do not like it to much and other times it is oh yeah, love it, weird.

_________________________

Newcastle:
-Brown Ale, my sons personal favorite, I like it alot as well

_________________________

Guiness Drought:
--We both like it but I prefer their regular bottled stuff better.
_________________________

Alaskan Amber:
--Sometimes I really like this beer and other times I just drink it because it is there.
_________________________

Not on hand,
Lost Coast, have had a few good ones from them but it has been some time now, can't recall which ones. 

I am trying to remember who makes Downtown Brown, maybe them. Funky label, really like it.

_____________________

Stone Pale in hand, I am so jelous, I really do think it is my all time favorite beer so far!

I always missed out on their barley wines

Their India was fun
_________________________

I had a surf bar next to my house in La Jolla, live there four years, one block from Wind and Sea Beach, loved it! Anyway I just cannot remember what it was but one day after work(active duty in USN) I needed a few brews to wind down, to say the least. They had some new micro brew on tap, killer deal at $2 for 16oz, four of them in a short time, tasted so good! Got up to go home and was a wreck! I did not know they were 10%, did not taste strong at all, empty stomach, tired, stressed, I wobbled home and my day was done, I never pass out or anything silly but man I was toasted, lol! Normally I can drink anybody under the table, I have hit up a full bottle of good Tequilla shots then carried by brother in law,m all 200lbs, upstairs to put him to bed. This was after living at sea level and skiing off the top of 14k mountians all day and no dinner! I have to admit I took a day off of skiing after than one though. 

I seldom drink excessively and do not even like to, just enough to have fun, relax, let out some stress and I am Irish Well, my clan moved back and forth a few times from Scotland to Ireland so not really sure what the hell I am, obviously not some kind of royalty, lol!

Rick

Rick


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Damm, not even buzzed and look at all those typos!

And I lied, I am Norwegian and a few other things as well, just a mut really

Rick


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## dodgerblue (Jul 14, 2005)

WOW ONE DAY PLAYING IN A SOFTBALL TOURNEY AND I MISS THE BEER TALK!!  HEY GROWER ,THX FOR THE RECC. I HAVENT TRIED ANY OF YOU LISTED-I HAVE SOME WORK TO DO!THOSE PICS ARE CLASSIC ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU GET DRUNK ENOUGH TO GIVE THE CREW NICK NAMES LIKE DUTCH, ENGLISH AND HANS !!  JOSHIN YA AZ.NICE TO TURN A POST GONE SOUTH A BIT INTO SOMETHING WE ALL CAN RELATE TO GREAT ONE FINGER PICS, BEER RECCOMENDATIONS AND DUDES NAMED HANS!  HORAAAAAY BEER ! NO WORRIES RAMM MOST MY POSTS ARE DONE UNDER THE INFLUENCE!


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Must be under now as well, is that why ALL THE SHOUTING? lol !


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

AzGrower said:


> Here are 3 beers I bought today (a 6er of each of course) I recommend them to you...


Tasty 

Anyways, I got 60ft^2 of eDead vs1e or whatever it was (the thicker of the two) for something stupid like $60 shipped with an online coupon code. Buying Raammat BXT would be twice that, which might be pennies to those with Tru Amps and Tube HU's (HU of my dreams ), but to me another $60 is another 8 hours of slave laboring at Home Depot this summer. After using all 60ft^2 on the two doors (1 layer inner door, 2-4 outer), I'd be willing to bet I wouldn't hear much if any difference switching to a superior product on the doors. 

HOWEVER, I'm not impressed with the adhesion capabilities of the eDead. It hasn't even been a year yet and when I peaked under my door panels to fix a squeek, some pieces had already fallen off. This is after cleaning the doors with an alcohol cleaner, and applying the eDead in ~70-80 deg weather with a roller and flat head. I was hoping something more commercialized would stick better then Peal and Seal which has been reported to fall of vertical surfaces, but I guess not.

So this season, I'm probably going to save up and buy some of Rick's product + Ensolite and do the doors proper. I'm sure it'll be worth it in the long run.

IMO IME FWIW.

-aaron


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

ArcL100 said:


> Anyways, I got 60ft^2 of eDead vs1e or whatever it was (the thicker of the two) for something stupid like $60 shipped with an online coupon code. Buying Raammat BXT would be twice that...I'd be willing to bet I wouldn't hear much if any difference switching to a superior product on the doors.
> 
> HOWEVER, I'm not impressed with the adhesion capabilities of the eDead. It hasn't even been a year yet and when I peaked under my door panels to fix a squeek, some pieces had already fallen off. This is after cleaning the doors with an alcohol cleaner, and applying the eDead in ~70-80 deg weather with a roller and flat head.
> 
> ...


Okay so you learned an age old truism from first hand experience...

If you are going to do it..do it right the first time!

In retrospect, the eDead product is going to cost you MORE in the end, and not just in product, but in time invested. Whats the cheapest is not always the best. Why do you think eDead was so cheaply priced in the first place? Another one of eDuh's products that has failed to produce any viable or reliable results. You got burned once, lets hope you learn from your mistake and make sure not to get burned again. But since you are going with Raam Mat, it looks like you were smart enough to learn from your mistake!


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## mr tibbs (Dec 18, 2005)

ArcL100 said:


> Tasty
> 
> Anyways, I got 60ft^2 of eDead vs1e or whatever it was (the thicker of the two) for something stupid like $60 shipped with an online coupon code. Buying Raammat BXT would be twice that, which might be pennies to those with Tru Amps and Tube HU's (HU of my dreams ), but to me another $60 is another 8 hours of slave laboring at Home Depot this summer. After using all 60ft^2 on the two doors (1 layer inner door, 2-4 outer), I'd be willing to bet I wouldn't hear much if any difference switching to a superior product on the doors.
> 
> ...



Let me get a few things straight, you work at Home Depot, you were looking to save money, and you bought eDead instead of Peal and Seal! Anyone else see anything wrong with this picture??


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Be nice now, he was trying to do something better and it did not work out, we all have been through that in our lives

Rick


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## mr tibbs (Dec 18, 2005)

raamaudio said:


> Be nice now, he was trying to do something better and it did not work out, we all have been through that in our lives
> 
> Rick



The real funny thing is that I did almost the EXACT same thing. Only I don't work at Home Depot. I was looking to save a few bucks and didn't do my research before hand. I ended up buying the ED crap and regreting it. That's why next time it's gonna' be done the right way, that's why I'll be in touch!


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

I am honored to have out product held in such high esteem, really

Back to one of those other topics within this thread, BEER 

I found a killer deal on a really nice Lithuanian brew, Ekstra Castle Ale, light, very hoppy, wonderfull flavor, I am very impressed.

$5.95 a six pack of 16.9 oz bottles, I am drinking it well chilled out of of a pilsner glass which seems to suite it very well. 

I should of listened to their beer and wine guy, he said they can barely keep it in stock, I should of bought alot more! 

Rick


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

AzGrower said:


> You got burned once, lets hope you learn from your mistake and make sure not to get burned again. But since you are going with Raam Mat, it looks like you were smart enough to learn from your mistake!


Ok, I guess next time I'll just save myself the effort of trying to post my experience. My sole purpose for posting was to prevent others from buying an inferior product, but instead you attempt to humiliate and berate me, claiming that I thought eDead was the next best thing to sex, when in actuality I knew it was inferior to the butyl products, but reasoned it was the cheapest/best asphalt product for my needs. Now, if either of you or mr tibbs can do math, you'd realize that I purchased the eDead for basically the same price as Peal and Seal, backing up my justification for purchase.

Had pieces not been falling off, I'd have no reason to "upgrade". I took a chance, and it worked temporarily. I'm stil just considering buying some Peal and Seal to patch up the few spots where material is falling off, at least right now on spring break. $20 every year and a couple hours of time is more bearable then a ++$100 lumpsome, but you're right it's probably better just to do it the "right-way" the first time which is why I'm considering Rick's known and respected product.

You should really stop playing Devil's Advocate and forum nutswinger in every thread AzGrower.

-aaron


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

raamaudio said:


> Be nice now, he was trying to do something better and it did not work out, we all have been through that in our lives
> 
> Rick


Hence the "DIY" in "DIY mobile Audio". I see it as a group that will TRY anything, if you don't try not only do you not make mistakes but you have no success in invention. Mistakes will me nmade, please laguh WITH the person who admits defeat instead of AT them 

Chad


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

ArcL- if you have access to a heat gun you might try just re-melting the stuff. That usually makes it stick much better than just applying it. I haven't used ed's deadening but some raamat that I tried to apply to a greasy/unprepared surface came off, losing it's stickyness in the process, and after cleaning/heating it, it has stayed on (in california desert heat) for well over a year now.


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

Why in the heck is everyone so touchy lately? This is a discusson forum, hence we discuss topics/themes/experiences...I wasnt trying to start anything, just debate/discuss them...I can disagree with you on a subject without trying to attack you man. Just like you have every right to disagree with me and that doesnt make me upset or mad.

I agree that there are some posts on this thread that have been attacking, but mine are not one of them. Sorry if it came across that way. 

The above statements are solely my opinion and if any of them should offend you...learn to live with it there buddy.


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

SQ_Bronco said:


> ArcL- if you have access to a heat gun you might try just re-melting the stuff. That usually makes it stick much better than just applying it. I haven't used ed's deadening but some raamat that I tried to apply to a greasy/unprepared surface came off, losing it's stickyness in the process, and after cleaning/heating it, it has stayed on (in california desert heat) for well over a year now.


Nice. I'll try that. 

-aaron


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## mr tibbs (Dec 18, 2005)

ArcL100 said:


> Ok, I guess next time I'll just save myself the effort of trying to post my experience. My sole purpose for posting was to prevent others from buying an inferior product, but instead you attempt to humiliate and berate me, claiming that I thought eDead was the next best thing to sex, when in actuality I knew it was inferior to the butyl products, but reasoned it was the cheapest/best asphalt product for my needs. Now, if either of you or mr tibbs can do math, you'd realize that I purchased the eDead for basically the same price as Peal and Seal, backing up my justification for purchase.
> 
> Had pieces not been falling off, I'd have no reason to "upgrade". I took a chance, and it worked temporarily. I'm stil just considering buying some Peal and Seal to patch up the few spots where material is falling off, at least right now on spring break. $20 every year and a couple hours of time is more bearable then a ++$100 lumpsome, but you're right it's probably better just to do it the "right-way" the first time which is why I'm considering Rick's known and respected product.
> 
> ...



I had a nice response all typed out and then my comp froze up so now all I'm gonna say is that this is the internet, DON'T TAKE IT TOO SERIOUSLY!!

And if you read my post, I admited to doing the same thing and regreting it. But now I have learned my lesson and will be doing it right the first time. It's called learning from your mistakes, just like AzGrower said.


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## Ocelaris (Jun 23, 2005)

For reference. My Ice and water guard has never come unpealed.


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Our original and first few verisions of mat were asphatic based and we sold thoughsands of rolls all over the US, Canada, and to dozens of countries. We conducted alot of testing in well below zero winters to well above 120 summers and it passed just fine but on occasion we had a failure in a customers car. Very few failures but one is far to many and bother me a great deal, I really do care and certainly not just about business, you are my fellow enthusiasts. We did have a bad batch once and several problem installs but we took care of everyone and pulled the product off the shelf, later sold as B stock for floors only. 

Since changing, which was a very long time goal, to a butyl based version we have sold many thousands of rolls and have not had one single failure. 

Your ice and water gaurd has worked great for you and has for many others but ALOT of failures have occured, no idea why this happens, some are fine, some are not but far more failures than we ever saw with our products in the 6+ years we have been doing this. 

Rick


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## 95Legend (Jun 24, 2005)

Derek said:


> i noticed more of a difference from one layer of 3/4" closed cell in my doors than i did with 4 layers of deadening....


I say you put 1 layer of deadening and 4 layers of closed cell foam for you next install!  



I did 5 layers (raammat) on my old car, and it was nice and all, but I think what i'm really missing is ensolite. 

My silent lexus will now become the most boring car in the world without road noise


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

There is a point of deminishing returns in all things and deadening deffinately falls into that realm. We recommend one layer most everywhere then give the good old thump test with your fist, a rubber mallet, etc, if it resonanates or seems rather soft, one more layer just where needed and then thump again, still resonate, a third layer. Generally a second layer is all that is needed, rarely a third layer is required. 

There are some exceptions, the back wall of my trucks can use two layers and maybe three on part of it, very boomy!

the outer skin of doors, one plus two more patches behind the speakers. But, if you have a really high powered midbass, etc, in the doors, it may take more, my Tacoma has 7 layers behind the midbasses and needed it, 600watts per door, dual IDCX62's. 

Another trick I use on occasion as needed, one layer of mat all over on the floor, then one layer of ensolite. Do the thump test, add mat on the resonate areas and then cover that with a second layer of ensolite. 

I have never used more than one layer of ensolite except in that situation, never found a real need and have hundreds of yards of it on hand

The real key here is to deaden to the level it needs and nothing more, saves money, time, weight in the vehicle that serves on real purpose.

I will sell a customer(fellow enthusiast) what they want but far more prefer to sell them what they need and have talked alot into buying less than they thought they should order

Rick


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## 95Legend (Jun 24, 2005)

5 layers gave me the best result. My door did feel heavy, but it didn't thump as well as 10k2hvn's door. Then again, his car is different than mine. 


How about a groupbuy on ensolite? muahha


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Yes, each vehicle and install will have different results, deadening requirements, etc. It takes a bit of patience, trial and error and determination to get where you need to be. 

Different doors, different drivers, different amounts of power, to many variables for us going all out, you just have to experiment sometimes to get it right. 

Another thing we do is use aluminum channel on the back side of the interior door metal to brace it up, etc to the level that area needs, no specific formula, if driver is mounted to it and it flexes, it will cause distortion to some degree. Three different pieces tied together in the Tacoma, only one needed in the tC but now we are going to 8" midbasses, will have more work to do in that area now.


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Rick, when you figure out your 8" in the door situation, let me know how well it went, what kinda cutting if any was needed, and really anything else i'd need to know to pull the 8's in the doors. Really intrested in this because i'd like to go 3way up front eventually, and i'd love 8's lol.


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## OgreDave (Jul 13, 2005)

Just wanted to say .. I got tons of the original Raammat. My friends Accord has had it all over the place, including trunk lid, for over 3 years in socal.

Other than the initial smell )), it's been great.


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## BodegaBay (Dec 16, 2005)

Rudeboy said:


> The site went up in August. More than 10,000 people have read it since then. I have received hundreds of e-mails from people who have found it helpful.


Don, your site is an excellent read. It's permanently in browser's favorite links. Props.


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

OgreDave said:


> Other than the initial smell )), it's been great.


Oh man I could have some fun with that statement, but its too easy, almost like you were handing that one out...


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

In all honesty, that is only the second or third time "smell" and any RAAMmat versions have been used together And never after installed a few days

Rick


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## Mr Burns (Sep 9, 2007)

I have not read all the posts, so if this has already come up I apologise.
I have put a 12" square of ensolite on the outer, inside door panel, directly behind my speaker to absorb the back wave. My question is, is it beneficial to cover the panel completly with the ensolite? Will I lose mdbass. What do you folks do. My door is fully deadened.


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## ///Audience (Jan 31, 2007)

Mr Burns said:


> I have not read all the posts, so if this has already come up I apologise.
> I have put a 12" square of ensolite on the outer, inside door panel, directly behind my speaker to absorb the back wave. My question is, is it beneficial to cover the panel completly with the ensolite? Will I lose mdbass. What do you folks do. My door is fully deadened.


i would deffinatly cover the entire door. The ensolite deffinatly had more impact on ridding road noise than all the RaamMat (which isnt really for that anyway). 

As for loosing midbass? not sure why you would.


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## ANT (Oct 15, 2005)

With most sound deadening, the more you do the better the results.
Every product type has a point of diminishing returns but with only a single layer of closed cell foam it will be very hard to get close to it.

Once you have used a vibration damper to handle the vibrations, you will want to apply the Ensolite on top. If you can do the entire interior of the door you will be much better off. The less sound waves you have bouncing around the door the better.


Hope that helps

ANT
Second Skin


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## ihartred (Jun 1, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> Ocelaris,
> ...The aluminum foil layer has significant barrier properties in and of itself...


first off, dont ever tell me i didn't search for an answer


on to the real question, is this still considered truth? from what i have read of his later posts i gathered that there was no point in 100% coverage of a CDL. this would prove otherwise.


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## F1Audio (Jun 5, 2009)

Way to bring up an ancient thread.  

Serious note: It seems there are 2 theories on using CCF. One idea is to put it in first, with MLV/mat on top. Another says put down mat first (damplifier, raamat, MLV, whatever you are using), then CCF on top. 

It would seem to me, that the damping material should go directly on the sheet metal (whether you use CLD tiles or any butyl or asphalt mat). Obviously we are trying to control the resonance of the steel panels in our cars. 

It also makes sense in my head to have a layer of CCF as the "top" layer before carpet or door panels go back in. So I am tempted to just throw on some CLD tiles where needed, and then layer CCF over the entire interior. Would adding a layer of MLV or mat under or over the CCF make a HUGE improvement? If I can tame the vibrations of the sheet metal, the next step is reducing road noise. CCF should do a pretty decent job of that, yes? Maybe I would put a layer of MLV just on the floor....seems like that is where a majority of my road noise seems to come from.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Derek said:


> i noticed more of a difference from one layer of 3/4" closed cell in my doors than i did with 4 layers of deadening....


Ditto. I have ensolite on the inner-door layer of my front doors. I drove around for a month with hollow, uncovered doors that just had damplifier on them. After the ensolite was put on, the difference seemed to be like 4db or 5db at least. The door panel had not even been put back on yet. So, I got to experience a lasting and memorized experience with vs without ensolite and I guarantee you there is a big audible difference. Especially with midrange and high range frequencies. I'm still debating whether to add an additional vinyl layer over it and then another thin foam layer to keep the door panel quiet. It really depends on how the rest of the car's acoustic projects go from here.


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

Yo mean like:
Multilayered composite material for cars



Seems like a good approach. You could probably also keep layering it: foam - vinyl - foam - vinyl -foam...as much as you want to get the desired amount of blocking within the space constraints you have.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

> If I can tame the vibrations of the sheet metal, the next step is reducing road noise. CCF should do a pretty decent job of that, yes? Maybe I would put a layer of MLV just on the floor....seems like that is where a majority of my road noise seems to come from.


If you have an RTA and are willing to do the work, please take measurements. Some manufacturers like to claim CCF is a filter of sound. If you think this is true, take some and see how much it "filters" by putting it over your speakers. Use your tweeters and start with a 15khz tone (barely audible) and keep dropping the xover pt until you hear it. Then play with volume. If CCF can be classified as a transmission loss product, you can come up with your own loss figures (amount of dB's blocked) and frequency coincidence (the point at which the material fails to block the sound).

The majority of noise doesn't _come _from the floor as the floor doesn't make noise. Your engine makes noise. Your exhaust makes noise. Barriers need to go as close to the noise source as physically possible as they work by refracting sound waves. I think the floor is a good idea, but not the first line of defense in making a vehicle quieter.


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