# Prototype 6.5" Mid/bass



## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Some very preliminary info on the prototype 6.5" mid/bass...










Keep in mind this is only a prototype and cosmetics/specs may change.

Pic of the front... Note the paper cone, alum phase plug, and large foam surround.










Pic of the rear... Note the very heavy cast frame, large ventilation windows under the spider, and the tall top plate... hmm I wonder what kind of motor this could be  Driver mounting depth is 3" exactly.










Frequency response in free-air:










Very smooth and extended as you can see, from 50hz to 8khz, with a nice 12db rolloff on both ends. Slight dip around 200-400hz, to compensate for the extra boost you get in most cars at that frequency which tend to muddy up the lower midrange. Most cars also have a 12db boost which picks up around 50-60hz... so in your doors these should play flat down to 20hz without a problem.

I chose to go with a slightly higher "q" driver, hence the slight bump at 60hz. I feel it gives these mids more impact in the bass. Efficiency ~88dbwm. Needless to say, these are made for door/free-air mounting. They will work in a sealed kickpanel, but without the same sensitivity in the low end.

Frequency response with the mid/bass located in the driver side door, measured from the driver side headrest. Notice the flat bass response down to 30hz in car (no highpass filter). Very impressive top end response, when you consider the driver sits nearly 80 degrees off axis!










And here's the same frequency response with a big cut at 200hz, a slight boost at 3khz, and a 12db highpass at 80hz. So smooth and extended....










Non-linear distortion test against the Seas Excel W18, which Imho is one of the most detailed, realistic sounding mids around. Test was conducted with the drivers mounted in the car door. Short story, below 80hz the prototype was cleaner. At 80hz and 200hz the distortion was very similar with the Excel ahead by a very small amount. At 800-1khz, the distortion was a good bit higher on the prototype. Above 1.5khz, the prototype was noticeably lower than the Excel. Overall not a bad performance.

Here's a sample pic at 200hz:










Again at 800hz:










The most noticeable subjective differences were in terms of sensitivity and bass output. The prototype was easily more dynamic, and had a very strong and violent impact in the bass. Midrange was more extended, and a tad bit fuller and warmer sounding. I'd say it's a step up in detail from the Seas CA18RNX, but not quite Seas Excel.

The Seas on the otherhand was just a bit cleaner and more realistic sounding. It's not a difference you'd pick out unless you had the best of installs and the drivers side by side, but to my ears which are accustomed to the sound of the Excels over years of listening it was fairly noticeable. Not exactly a bad thing, as some people prefer a warmer, fuller sounding midrange. The Seas Excel also didn't have the sheer dynamics, or as hard of a midbass impact... this could be due to the lower sensitivity and lower qts of the driver. However, I felt the Seas bass was a bit more natural and easy to listen to. The prototype just hit too hard and violently... and perhaps it was a bit exaggerated... but otoh it was alot of fun to listen to. With a higher crossover point or steeper slope I'm sure it could be tamed.

Last but not least... the 13mb excursion video:

http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/proto.avi


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Holy God..........Umm first question i have is what kinda power does that monster like......as well as a good price point........wow i want one.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

demon2091tb said:


> Holy God..........Umm first question i have is what kinda power does that monster like......as well as a good price point........wow i want one.


It's pretty efficient... should be satisfying with a 50 watt amp. Pricing? Lol... not sure yet. It's a workhorse of a driver and built like a tank... not much in the way of looks. I'm thinking of keeping it as cheap as possible, but if there's enough interest we could work on spending more to improve the cosmetics.

Either way... expect a pretty good introductory discount


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

nice graph

when are these coming out? approximate 1 month/2 months?


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

I'm not too much on driver looks, this driver looks rather beefy though, You mentioned something about the type of motor, more details if you don't mind disclosing on this prototype. I don't know much about motor designs and advantanges and disadvantages of one over the other, but that driver just looks sexy to me......lol. This driver would be ideal as it looks for me as well, AS you've said it takes the cake in IB doors, driver size is 6.5", which would fit easily in my doors. Only other spec needed really to know if it would fit is driver depth.

With that kind of excursion i'm sure it would get plenty loud for any daily driver. can't really tell the excursion potential from the video but i'd say its in the 10mm or so xmax....just a guess though.

Ok well i'll stop asking questions and making assumptions but that driver looks awesome to me. I just hope its in my affordable price range. Power would not be a problem at all, i have up to 160rms @ 4ohms available from my 2ch, and a little over 80rms x 4 @ 4ohms from my 4ch.



newtitan said:


> when are these coming out? approximate 1 month/2 months?


???


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

It is a 4 ohm driver.. don't know if I mentioned that yet. I would expect about 1-2 months to release, once the details are finalized.

Xmax isn't verified yet, but should be in the 10-11mm range 1 way. Xmech ~25mm p-p.


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## 10K2HVN (Mar 8, 2005)

nice to see things coming along..!!

number one question:

Mounting Depth?


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

10K2HVN said:


> nice to see things coming along..!!
> 
> number one question:
> 
> Mounting Depth?


3" exact. Same like the Seas CA18/L18.


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## dual700 (Mar 6, 2005)

Buff driver, just like the maker... :wink:


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## dingaling (Apr 14, 2005)

damn thats nice excursion...
btw, what is SD for that unit?


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## terryworm (Jun 10, 2005)

Now that we have a mid, how about a tweet :lol: 
nice dang, when can i get my hands on a pair to bring home.


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## Charles (Apr 3, 2005)

Nice excursions.......any indicative price?


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## tf1216 (May 18, 2005)

Wow, I love the driver npdang. I have to ask one more question, is it possible to get an 8 ohm version down the road? I want to try it in place of the L18. 

I know you say it is 6.5" in diameter, is that from the outisde of the mounting holes or the diameter outside of the surround?


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## Kali77 (May 28, 2005)

Very nice  Can't wait for the release.

Kali


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## vibrator (Mar 24, 2005)

very impressive! looks just fine to me. I say keep the price low, dont worry about cosmetics. Most people hide them behind grills anyway. 
Do you think this driver will give the Peerless XLS 8 a run for its money in terms of bass output?


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## vibrator (Mar 24, 2005)

I would also like to add that I think this driver is something that a lot of people are looking for. You will probably sell quite a few of those bad boys.


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## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

Nice driver 

but could you get away with rubber surround instead?


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

I agree with Vibrator, Something rather affordable that sounds extreemly detailed, built for IB use. Thats one thing that has stopped me on drivers in the past, actual IB use, where the drivers are not designed for that use.

Anyway any more details on the drivers Dang that you wouldn't mind disclosing ?


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

<Homer>Mmmmmmmm, underhung mid/bass</Homer>

Got faraday? :wink: 

Looking good sir! If this driver measures well for you, I'm sure that in time you will get a lions share of the diy car audio market.

The Cheap Audio 6.5 has a nice ring to it. :lol: 

Oh yeah, don't worry about the asthetics. Looks great as is.


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

Damn... trying to make me replace my Dayton RS eh?  
Wonder how they will compare in detail to the Dayton RS...?

Regards
Leo


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

Oh and if it turns out this bad boy does indeed plays flat down to 20hz i'll finally be able to ditch the sub... 8) very nice...


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## SSQ (May 26, 2005)

Since this is intended for door mounting (IB) what does the off-axis frequency response look like?

-Kris


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## MiloX (May 22, 2005)

Welp, there goes my plans for the CA18.

If dang is close to his target date, these may be available just as I am finishing the "procurement" phase of my next install. 

YAY!!!!!


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## daitrong (May 12, 2005)

i know this is a prototype and cosmetics will change ( i hope they do ) but it looks really ghettoo. Sorry, had to point out the obvious.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

daitrong said:


> i know this is a prototype and cosmetics will change ( i hope they do ) but it looks really ghettoo. Sorry, had to point out the obvious.


Yeah... if it's going in a door though I don't know how much more people would be willing to spend to make it look a bit nicer. The cast frame is very heavy and rigid, and the driver as a whole is very functional. Custom tooling for a nicer frame, a more exotic cone material, a nicer one piece top plate (like what you see with Brahma, Avalanche, XXX, etc.) costs alot more money. 

We'll see though. Hopefully it can at least be a bit more attractive without going overboard.


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## blackreplica (Mar 14, 2005)

A few questions for you sir!

Firstly, is that really using an underhung motor?

Secondly, will you ever be making a midbass-only version, maybe something with a rubber surround/metal cone?

Third, does that dip you intended in the 150-300Hz region sap away midbass impact?

And last of all, what's the qts of that mofo?

/me waits anxiously for benchmarks against the excel


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## Tirefryr (May 15, 2005)

Leave it alone. I like the ugly driver/awesome performance aspect. Looks are totally irrelevant.


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

The only thing i wonder about right now is can the plasitic panel on my door handle that kinda abuse, and how in the hell am i gonna mount that thing in there with 10-11mm xmax....... :shock: Any ideas.....Would like to stay away from modding the interior door panels.


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## mrbojangles62683 (Jun 7, 2005)

wow


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## xDeLiRiOuSx (Apr 26, 2005)

Wow sweet! Personally, I love my CA18RNX too much to leave them. 

These prototypes are awesome! However, installation in doors would require indefinate dampening 

I can't wait to hear some reviews of these things!

David


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

blackreplica said:


> A few questions for you sir!
> 
> Firstly, is that really using an underhung motor?
> 
> ...


It's an xbl^2 motor... no plans on a mid/bass only version with metal cone. 

The dip actually cleans up the lower midrange a bit, and adds impact to the mid/bass since it's not so muddy in that region anymore.

I'll be sending the driver out for testing, so when I get the report back I will post all the curves, t/s parameters, etc.


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## cam2Xrunner (Apr 30, 2005)

So what tweeter do you think would work best with this?

Which ribbon-

Which dome-


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## daitrong (May 12, 2005)

cam2Xrunner said:


> So what tweeter do you think would work best with this?
> 
> Which ribbon-


it's 88db efficiency =/ wasn't the lcy 130 ribbon 93dbwm ? if so i would think a more efficient driver would be a better choice to mate with the lcy in a 2 way set up.


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## vibrator (Mar 24, 2005)

vibrator said:


> very impressive! looks just fine to me. I say keep the price low, dont worry about cosmetics. Most people hide them behind grills anyway.
> Do you think this driver will give the Peerless XLS 8 a run for its money in terms of bass output?


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

vibrator said:


> vibrator said:
> 
> 
> > very impressive! looks just fine to me. I say keep the price low, dont worry about cosmetics. Most people hide them behind grills anyway.
> > Do you think this driver will give the Peerless XLS 8 a run for its money in terms of bass output?


Heheh you gotta remember the Peerless XLS is an 8" driver, with a 26mm long coil! And it's nearly 4" deep  So I'd have to say no, not even close. But on the bright side I can tell you that you won't get more bass out of a 3" depth, 7" diam. mid than this one. You also won't get that Peerless XLS to play decently past 500hz... so it's all a set of compromises.


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## vibrator (Mar 24, 2005)

8) got ya.


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## blackreplica (Mar 14, 2005)

Thank you sir!

i'm still on a slow hunt for that elusive 'perfect' midbass driver. I tried checking thru your microsoft excel catalog to find out more on this XLS 8 inch everyone is talking about. It's listed on your first worksheet but when i click the name i get linked to a SEAS driver specs instead...the closest thing i could find matching the description is this Peerless HDS 8 inch, is that the XLS you're talking about? The xmax sounds yummy, where can i get more details on this unit? Didnt see anything on the d-s-t website either. I take it the peerless really excels (sic) even when IB?


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## Hobbes26 (Mar 9, 2005)

Aw man. I saw that proto in person last week... Too bad I didn't get to hear it though....


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## vibrator (Mar 24, 2005)

blackreplica said:


> Thank you sir!
> 
> i'm still on a slow hunt for that elusive 'perfect' midbass driver. I tried checking thru your microsoft excel catalog to find out more on this XLS 8 inch everyone is talking about. It's listed on your first worksheet but when i click the name i get linked to a SEAS driver specs instead...the closest thing i could find matching the description is this Peerless HDS 8 inch, is that the XLS you're talking about? The xmax sounds yummy, where can i get more details on this unit? Didnt see anything on the d-s-t website either. I take it the peerless really excels (sic) even when IB?


click here for specs or google the part # 830491


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## cdj (Mar 7, 2005)

In regards to the new speaker, to paraphrase the old adage that the three most important things in real estate are location, location, location, my vote goes to function, function, function.

Personally, cosmetics that are going to be hidden in the door don't have much value in comparison.


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## Charles (Apr 3, 2005)

whats the frequency used to test the driver in the video? 50hz or lower?


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Charles said:


> whats the frequency used to test the driver in the video? 50hz or lower?


2hz


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## Charles (Apr 3, 2005)

npdang said:


> Charles said:
> 
> 
> > whats the frequency used to test the driver in the video? 50hz or lower?
> ...


:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


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## blackreplica (Mar 14, 2005)

npdang said:


> Charles said:
> 
> 
> > whats the frequency used to test the driver in the video? 50hz or lower?
> ...


Muahahahahah

The time will soon come for me to make an order with you cheapie..you got all the **** i want..all i need to do is save up a little longer....just a little longer....lol


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

npdang said:


> It's an xbl^2 motor... no plans on a mid/bass only version with metal cone.


now thats interesting?

I would have thought it was some sort of seas deal 

but the sensitivity and clean distoriton graph makes sense based upon my old XXX mids


hmm interesting!!!


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## |Tch0rT| (May 7, 2005)

I'm VERY interested in this mid. Is there an ETA for a release? I don't care about how it looks, well it could look just a tad nicer but as long as it sounds good who cares? I don't recall if the estimate on the price was mentioned, but if it's around $100 a pair you can count me in on buying a pair to replace my Peerless mids. How well would the speaker perform in a custom door pod? I'm probably going to go with door pods when I get some extra funds since my doors don't like to fit 6.5" speakers with 3" mounting depths and high excursion in the stock locations.

Ryan


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## Weightless (May 5, 2005)

looks like you have a winner there. As for the looks, who cares if they sound as good as that graph looked. My set will be behind a door panel.  Can't wait to hear a review from you.

J


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Updated my original post with more pics, in car measurements, and a subjective analysis.


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## cam2Xrunner (Apr 30, 2005)

Definitely sounds like a winner. Any chance on an in-car video with some sound? 

Would the LPG35NFA be a nice tweer to match it with? 

Any idea on a price?


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Wow too much midbass lol.....hmmmm.


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## xDeLiRiOuSx (Apr 26, 2005)

I agree--- TOO MUCH midbass!

I'm a huge fan of midbass. It's puncy and clean. I always like to play my music with just a tad more midbass (as opposed to a flat frequency response). The CA18RNXs that I have already does that.

Although midbass is attractive, but having too much of it ruins your music. Still, I'm ready to try these prototypes once they are available!

David


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## Derek (Jun 4, 2005)

xDeLiRiOuSx said:


> I always like to play my music with just a tad more midbass (as opposed to a flat frequency response).


that's because your ears start losing their sensitivity in that region....whereas a mic doesn't


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## Hobbes26 (Mar 9, 2005)

6" mid that plays up to 10kHz.... would it be that useful if it's in the doors - since directivity is going to be quite high. I guess your measurements show that the high frequency response isn't attenuated too much.

Would it be better to use it in the kicks? ...other than the low-f response dropping off a bit early - you can probably just eq it a bit, and you're most likely going to have a sub to augment the low end.

3" mounting depth is a tad deep. It's pretty tough already to sitck the Kodas in the doors of my car. You need that depth for the excursion though... I guess there are tradeoffs.


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## xDeLiRiOuSx (Apr 26, 2005)

Derek said:


> xDeLiRiOuSx said:
> 
> 
> > I always like to play my music with just a tad more midbass (as opposed to a flat frequency response).
> ...


Aww man, That's what I get for being such a bass head before! Aww well, I'm only going to live for 50 more years or so (if I'm lucky!)

David


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Hobbes26 said:


> 6" mid that plays up to 10kHz.... would it be that useful if it's in the doors - since directivity is going to be quite high. I guess your measurements show that the high frequency response isn't attenuated too much.
> 
> Would it be better to use it in the kicks? ...other than the low-f response dropping off a bit early - you can probably just eq it a bit, and you're most likely going to have a sub to augment the low end.
> 
> 3" mounting depth is a tad deep. It's pretty tough already to sitck the Kodas in the doors of my car. You need that depth for the excursion though... I guess there are tradeoffs.


Good question i beleive here, with the off-axis response in the doors, how does imaging come up, with a tweet crossed around 3k-3.5k, as uppermidrange frequencies become much more directional?


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Take a look at the first post again. I updated it with some fr measurements of the driver sitting down near my feet in the drive side door, nearly 80 degrees off axis. It's still good up to 5khz when measured at the driver side headrest!


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## Hobbes26 (Mar 9, 2005)

npdang said:


> Take a look at the first post again. I updated it with some fr measurements of the driver sitting down near my feet in the drive side door, nearly 80 degrees off axis. It's still good up to 5khz when measured at the driver side headrest!


I saw that and it's pretty good. But how does having a mid play up to 5kHz affect the imaging? Especially when it's in the doors, and not in the kicks, where you're able to play more with the aiming.


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## dual700 (Mar 6, 2005)

Saw the mid today.
Definitely not as bad looking in person...
Crazy excursion, shiat!


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

ahhh you golden mafias guys get to have all the fun 

the specs looks sweet though!!!!

if they are run sealed will it kill the output?


and this is a xbl2 motor right>??? just confirming saw it posted above , but wasnt sure if it was in jest or not

as I thought the licensing was costly??


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Hobbes26 said:


> npdang said:
> 
> 
> > Take a look at the first post again. I updated it with some fr measurements of the driver sitting down near my feet in the drive side door, nearly 80 degrees off axis. It's still good up to 5khz when measured at the driver side headrest!
> ...


Good question. I don't think it has any affect on imaging. I've gotten great imaging from the stock door locations using time alignment and crossover points anywhere from 1 to 5khz. Having the mid play higher obviously allows you wider variety of tweeters, as well as more tweeter placement options.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

newtitan said:


> ahhh you golden mafias guys get to have all the fun
> 
> the specs looks sweet though!!!!
> 
> ...


It is xbl^2. I have no idea of the licensing cost as only the manufacturer would have that info. 

Running the driver sealed alters the low end frequency response... chances are you will end up with a huge peak around 150hz, and then a quick drop after that. Some people actually like that kind of mid/bass and call it snappy or punchy (I don't). You could equalize the response to look the same as a door however. I'd say one band to boost, and one to cut and you should be good.


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## Hobbes26 (Mar 9, 2005)

npdang said:


> newtitan said:
> 
> 
> > ahhh you golden mafias guys get to have all the fun
> ...


I've seen people "vent" the kicks into the frame rails or holes they've cut behind the pods. Crazy. But may be worth it


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## Hobbes26 (Mar 9, 2005)

npdang said:


> Hobbes26 said:
> 
> 
> > npdang said:
> ...


I see. I haven't had much time playing with an active setup where I could change the crossover freqs or whatnot. I agree - having such a high freq playing mid just opens up the possibilities....


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## Derek (Jun 4, 2005)

Hobbes26 said:


> npdang said:
> 
> 
> > newtitan said:
> ...


cutting those holes is worth it. i got some large holes in my camaro....i stuffed my kickpanels behind my factory plastic kick panels....cut a hole in them and put a grill on...made a frame of mdf that would screw onto the frame of the car....plumbers strapped an mdf ring on....aimed...angled....glassed it...and bolted it to the frame....nice little ib setup for my 4" audax's  lots of weatherstripping and lots of clay...she worked good


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## alexcd (May 24, 2005)

I'm also interested in getting a hold of a pair of these. When will they be available?


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## dual700 (Mar 6, 2005)

What are you gonna name this sexy mids, dude?
NPDANG6.5?


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## DanWiggins (Jun 15, 2005)

npdang said:


> newtitan said:
> 
> 
> > and this is a xbl2 motor right>??? just confirming saw it posted above , but wasnt sure if it was in jest or not
> ...


Hi all,

XBL² licensing is typically a few percent of the build cost of the driver (which is effectively halved - or more - in terms of retail price). Assuming a driver is built for $30, a typical XBL² license would be in the $1 range; this would be for a driver that would typically sell for $70-$100 on the street (meaning around 1% of MSRP).

We have multiple licensing methods, but on average the cost of XBL² licensing is trivial; consider that, especially with larger drivers, you can reduce the size of the magnet stack (less clearance required for the shorter voice coil) and voice coil length, it can be lower cost - even with the licensing fee included - to build with XBL² than most other topologies.

Those claiming XBL² licensing fees are excessive are simply wrong, and either in the dark about the actual costs and simply guessing or directly lying to the consumer (and I would consider making "statements of fact" when one is knowingly in the dark to be dishonest as well). And probably have a vested interest in putting down the technology, or generating buzz by trying to "slam" it in order to hype their own, unproven technology.

Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio®


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

WOW even the hallowed halls of DIY mobile are getting touched by the big boys 


if this was directed at me, never was I stating it as fact, just after reading all the ascendant drama ---I thought the licensing was more that a "few percent" 

but Ill leave the rest of that drama to SIN--im not even touching that

thats waaay cool for you guys to offer it out that cheap though

but of course I only asked a ?question? to the speaker designer not a "absolute assumtption" if it came off that way my mistake 

I know better


so when are those new koda 12's coming out  by the way


now back to the Dang super MID


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## technobug (Mar 15, 2005)

Ok Cheapie.......fork `em over! :wink: 

I need a set pronto!

Hey lemme check `em out. I'm finally in town for a while. Well sort of......

Anyway, pho on me, whenevers.........

Jun


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## wavac387 (May 30, 2005)

how much are these expected to cost? eta?


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Release price has not been stated yet, eta seems to be in the next 1-2months, probobly more like 2 or so though.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

No definite eta, or price. I just like to tease! 

I will say upfront however, that I won't release any driver unless it:

1. Costs less than the best (Seas Excel, Scan-Speak Revelator, etc.), but offer no compromise in objective performance
2. Reasonable mounting depth
3. Best possible bass output for it's size
4. Easy to work with as far as setup and tuning


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Hmmm......So that narrows it down to what your design goals are.

Teasing is cool as long as its a consistant teast......giving us some more info every few days.......more pictures, graphs, video's, and nipple shots as well. So we can all gawk and drooll a little more.....


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## Derek (Jun 4, 2005)

mmm....nipples.....


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## wavac387 (May 30, 2005)

damn, too late for me, i won't have my car at school next year


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

I have been watching this thread carefully, now that I know where all this is going I am really interested in the end results

Rick


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## MiloX (May 22, 2005)

Any updates?


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## acex008 (Jun 24, 2005)

I want TWO!!! How are they comming Mr. Dang. LOL.

:lol:


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Agreed would like to hear a few updates on how things are going with the drivers.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Having some cosmetics changed, as well as the performance tweaked.

Will let everyone know as soon as the next one comes in


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Awesome....can't wait to see it and hear your new impressions of the driver.


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## dennisp (May 25, 2005)

any chance these things could keep up with horns?


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

I don't want to talk for Dang, but i'd think most likely, but then i have relatively hardly any knowledge on them so i'll let him comment on that.


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## 87DXHatch (Jun 25, 2005)

I'm just hoping these things will have the same mounting diameter and depth as the Seas CA18RNXs.


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

I will deffinently agree with that....i'd love to just drop them in......in place of the CA18RNX as i have a pair on the way as we speak. Who knows how long it'll take me to get them in though....gotta deaden and get a crossover unit.

I'm sure it will be very close though, and the mounting depth should be @ 3" IIRC which was listed earlier in the thread.


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Any new info Dang? Just wondering the wearabouts of this driver, and how everything is going with it.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Wow, I'd love to mount these open-air in my trunk, maybe low-passed, since I need to make up for not having a sub. I'm not that demanding, I'm sure it will work. Just what I've been looking for. Just have to do some custom fab on the trunk springs to get the clearance.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Will post again as soon as there's any info... just to let you know there is a sub in the works


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Who CARES how speakers _look?_ :roll:


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## xDeLiRiOuSx (Apr 26, 2005)

The small group of DIY here will believe that Ludemandan (I personally could care less what it looks like).... 

But if Npdang plans to sell it to other nitches of car audio people, they need it to look presentable too. Especially if people are new to DIY. Actually the way it looks now is pretty decent already.


David


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## Casedot (Apr 15, 2005)

npdang said:


> Will post again as soon as there's any info... just to let you know there is a sub in the works


You're such a TEASE!


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Any new Info available?


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## mk1982 (Jul 3, 2005)

npdang, since u are actually designing the speaker, and you intend it to be for car audio applications, can you please describe what possibilities there are of reducing the mounting depth ? or is there absolutely no room for that. im asking this because im assuming that seas or scanspeak or whoever didn't really care about a few mm of extra depth but perhaps your customers might. is there anythin on the driver that can be trimmed to reduce depth or is this as shallow as it will go.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I'm trying to keep it as shallow as possible, but some things just aren't possible without compromising significant performance.


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## mk1982 (Jul 3, 2005)

do you suspect it to be of the same depth as the CA18RNX or suspect it will be deeper/shallower ? i realise you're trying to create an excellent driver and i'm sure you'd rather compromise on performance since most people can fit CA18s without a problem.


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## Weightless (May 5, 2005)

I'd rather the performance not be compramised for the install. I will make it fit!!!


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Depth should be near or at the same as the Seas CA/L/G 18 RNX series... which is ~3". The reason for this is the tall toplate being used to give a longer, flatter bl curve. Also, you need a good amount of depth to accomodate a high excursion.


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## cam2Xrunner (Apr 30, 2005)

So any idea on how much longer? Or did I miss that info somewhere?


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

No idea... it's alot of back and forth to get everything just perfect. I should be having a sample 12" sub by the end of the month though so keep an eye out for that.


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## mk1982 (Jul 3, 2005)

wow ! good luck npdang


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Some idea of what we're dealing with...


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## Derek (Jun 4, 2005)

did you say this was going to be xbl2?

if so...where's the notches


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Sub isn't xbl^2 

Just an overhung with dual copper rings and a "ring" magnet system.


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## mk1982 (Jul 3, 2005)

autocad npdang ?


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## Derek (Jun 4, 2005)

i thought that was the mid's motor....oops


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## vibrator (Mar 24, 2005)

8" magnet, 3" coil, bumped backplate, copper rings, 27mm(?) xmax. looks nice. What build house are you going with? Destijl?


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## 87DXHatch (Jun 25, 2005)

Holy crap that sounds sweet.


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## xencloud (Aug 26, 2005)

I really can't wait to see the finished product of this driver, looks to be fantastic and versatile.........


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## smee (Jul 3, 2005)

whats the progress??????


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

No idea still waiting for an update on the mid. Work's also started on a compact chambered tweeter... think LPG that can cross at ~2khz comfortably.

On the other hand the sub should be here early September.


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## tf1216 (May 18, 2005)

Npdang, have you thought about designing a woofer as well? Can you tell me/us what you think makes for an ultimate sounding woofer? I have discussed with some that the underhung technology is desired with a light, stiff cone and super high efficiency. What do you think?

Edited: Sorry guys, I read the post and noticed you were working on a woofer. Why the overhung design? Did you find that you will get the best performance using that design? What's the price going to be? Any idea?


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I don't want to say too much until I get a finalized driver. 

But I decided on the overhung for higher powerhandling and efficiency, as it's my humble opinion that most people are going to judge your driver not on having the lowest possible distortion, but on how well it sounds "out of the box" with little or no tuning. That, and how loud it gets.

For the cone I chose white anodized aluminum for durability and appearance. I don't believe cones play any role in the performance of a subwoofer whatsoever.

Pricing... let's just say the pre-order pricing will be VERY generous.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

This thing looks awesome! I'd be VERY interested! Let us know a release date!

My only concern is that this mid/mid-bass is designed for IB in doors which is great, but I'm concerned about the cone material and surround for driver longevity.

Can you achieve the same results using a santoprene or rubber surround and a weather-proof cone material???

I don't care about cosmetics whatsoever! Sound Quality should be the ultimate goal, right!?!

Thanks Nguyen!


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## mk1982 (Jul 3, 2005)

right on bbfoto .. spare the cosmetics and have it sound awesome, npdang, is the driver gonna be the same depth, slightly deeper or slightly shallower ?


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## kappa546 (Apr 11, 2005)

any news on the mid?


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

It looks like there are some details I can speak about with certainty now.

We're on the final leg. It's been alot of back and forth, and sometimes months waiting for a reply or sample but it looks to be nearing the end.

Driver will be made for free-air use in the doors, using a treated paper cone and a clear anodized aluminum phase plug. There's also a heavy, black, cast aluminum basket and nickel plating of the motor for durability. Magnet diameter is a small 85mm, and mounting depth ~78-80mm. 

Motor is xbl^2 with copper shorting rings to reduce inductance modulation distortion. Expect xmag to be around 11mm 1 way, and xmech to be around 24mm peak to peak.

Expect usable response in your door to about 4khz, with a smooth rolloff, and directly on-axis to about 10khz. Bass has a 3db rise around 80hz for added punch, and a steep high q rolloff. I can say this is a driver that truly needs no crossover.

Pre-order pricing roughly should be around what a Seas G18RNX/P costs. I'll have more details as they become certain.


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Hot damn, better start saving up, Do you have mounting diamater measurements, and would this driver eat my CA18's alive, with 40rms that is, Running [email protected]? If so YES. Can't wait to get these or a pair of XLS 8's, but as it looks these are looking more beneficial as i'd really rather not cut my doors. One thing that bothers me is throw though, how i can actually implement them without hearing the dreaded panel smacking noise. If they have as much throw as the specs show as of now, not showing xmax of course, then i'm gonna have to figure out something fast...

BTW whats pricing of a G18....


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Same size frame as the Seas G18's... about 178mm diameter. It's just about identical in size, except for the smaller magnet.


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## kappa546 (Apr 11, 2005)

so how long are we thinking? i think it'll come down to these and ascendants new line that is supposed to be out in 1.5 months...


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2005)

i hope that pre order is after i'm able to get another car...


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## xencloud (Aug 26, 2005)

I'm holding off on buying any speakers until these come out and I can see/hear some specs/reviews......:>)


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Is impendence still 4ohm? Any idea on new powerhandling abilities, and effecinecy numbers. I should have 82rmsx4 @ 4ohm available for it when i order if i order. Would that amount of power be more than suffecient for considerable midbass output to keep up with a 15?

I had considered putting an 8" midbass inplace of the CA18" Because i crave more midbass, but if this driver will do the job easily and more than needed, then this would be the best option, without cutting my doors. And still have the extra room to upgrade to a 3way later if i wanted. still wondering about overall throw though, and possibility of getting panel smack....anyway to remedy, or would i need to cut the grill from the door, and reapply a new grill?


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## Rbsarve (Aug 26, 2005)

I do like the look of that thing... Maybe swap me a few for some Triuses?


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## Finleyville (Jun 17, 2005)

Rbsarve said:


> I do like the look of that thing... Maybe swap me a few for some Triuses?



Sorry to hijack, but I'll take a pair of Trius! I am chomping at the bit for two.  What do I have to do to get a pair?


Back on topic... I also am looking forward to these finalized drivers. I may have to sell my Extremii for these.


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## Jim85IROC (Jun 8, 2005)

Just out of curiosity, why use such a large foam surround? If Xmax is 10-11mm, do you really need an Xmech for more than 15mm? Wouldn't a smaller surround allow you to use a slightly larger cone to get more cone area with no drawbacks?

Also, I was wondering if this paper cone has any sort of coating on it, particularly on the back side. The door is a harsh environment for a driver, and a cone that's got the back side coated with something may help it shed water and moisture.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

It's still svc 4 ohm. Powerhandling... I'd say about 125 watts continuous power. I goosed the prototype with about 175 watts and it turned the voice coil black (still worked though). Remember that's actual measured power across the driver, not amplifier rated power.

Overall throw? It's really not much better than the Seas G18/CA18/L18. Maybe 2mm more peak-peak throw at best. Keep in mind that for a given mounting depth, you really can't get any better than this mechanically.

However, you do gain some advantages. The low end is better contoured for free-air use, the magnet is much smaller in diameter for easier mounting, xmag is higher and bl is flatter, less inductance modulation, lower distortion, and a more extended top end.... so basically punchier bass, cleaner bass and midrange, and better top end.

Xmech is not 15mm 1 way.... the foam surround was originally used to provide a flatter top profile, but for cosmetic reasons is being changed to a rubber one. The "larger" surface area is really all marketing hype. You will never hear the difference.

Also remember many stock car drivers are simple, untreated paper cones and they do very well in car doors. I've pulled stock drivers out of cars 7-8 yrs old and they still look and perform like new.


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Awesome info Dang, Can't wait to get some new graphs and such, new production pictures and whatnot.

I think you've fixed my thoughts on panel slap, When there ready and proven to work, Awesome, I'll pick up a pair, What kinda warranty and such could we expect, if any 

Would 85rms be more than enough to get them moving very nicely? I'd hate to have to upgrade amps, but hell if i need too i may.... 

Then the CA18's will go into the HT 

One other question though, how would these Mid's compaire in output in the midbass region compaired to a set of XLS 8's?


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

aaaaaahhhhh yeah we are getting closer it seems I like the 4 ohm impedance also !!!


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## Bobo (Aug 6, 2005)

One question. Will the mid most likely need a decent amount of eq'ing. Just from looking at the frequency graph on the front page, it would seem so. Not trying to rain on a parade here, so don't shoot me  I'm very interested in this mid, but don't have a lot of eq'ing options since my Alpine bit the dust (and I'm already thinking about spending money that I shouldn't :-/ ).


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Does it need some equalization for OPTIMAL performance? Yes, but so does any mid you use. You will always have to deal with door panel diffraction/obstruction. If you look again, you will see it really only needs 1 band of eq, which is to cut out the door resonance at 200hz. This is pretty much standard for all mids... and Imho it's actually nothing at all especially compared to some mids I've used.


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

dates of release????


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## Bobo (Aug 6, 2005)

npdang said:


> Does it need some equalization for OPTIMAL performance? Yes, but so does any mid you use. You will always have to deal with door panel diffraction/obstruction. If you look again, you will see it really only needs 1 band of eq, which is to cut out the door resonance at 200hz. This is pretty much standard for all mids... and Imho it's actually nothing at all especially compared to some mids I've used.


Ok thanks. I have 160 hz on my HU, may be able to use it some if need be. But I'm guessing the response could be a lot different in my car compared to yours?


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## stangme01 (Sep 28, 2005)

Yeah when people see the rollercoaster waves they automatically think? UH OH...... but that actually looks really good.

Can wait


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## Rbsarve (Aug 26, 2005)

Finleyville said:


> Sorry to hijack, but I'll take a pair of Trius! I am chomping at the bit for two.  What do I have to do to get a pair?
> 
> 
> Back on topic... I also am looking forward to these finalized drivers. I may have to sell my Extremii for these.


Well shipping costs gets a bit silly if we are going to ship them by the pair to another continent (US), but if Npang or somebody else want to arrange a group buy we will naturally help you guys out. Naturally some discount would be arranged. (Quite a lot if we can make a trade with some of those 6,5´s)


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## haibane (Sep 29, 2005)

Rbsarve said:


> Well shipping costs gets a bit silly if we are going to ship them by the pair to another continent (US), but if Npang or somebody else want to arrange a group buy we will naturally help you guys out. Naturally some discount would be arranged. (Quite a lot if we can make a trade with some of those 6,5´s)


Very nice looking. Screams Making myself a 4 way front stage


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Rbsarve said:


> Well shipping costs gets a bit silly if we are going to ship them by the pair to another continent (US), but if Npang or somebody else want to arrange a group buy we will naturally help you guys out. Naturally some discount would be arranged. (Quite a lot if we can make a trade with some of those 6,5´s)


 I'm very interested... will keep you updated


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## zfactor (Oct 19, 2005)

wow these look very sweet any price ever determined on these??? these would seem to be awsome midbass drivers!!! i just got done reading all 14 pages....... wheeewwww

4 ohm!!! any way of getting a set of these???????????????????????????any way at all??????


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

So far I've got a prototype for a sub, tweet, and mid/bass. All I'm waiting for is some revisions from the manufacturer. As soon as I hear anything definite, I will post it.


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## zfactor (Oct 19, 2005)

any idea how long just a good geuss??? id love to try these out!!! and i need new mids!!!!! consider selling the prototypes as long as they arent beat to death??? thanks


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

You wouldn't want the prototype... it smells like burnt glue 

My hands are tied though as far as a release date. Your guess is as good as mine! I have zero control over it. I am hoping for a pre-order to start before the end of the year.

I had thought the sub was done, but ran into some problems... so we'll see how things go. Fortunately, the mid is all but done I believe and I just need to see the final prototype.


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## Weightless (May 5, 2005)

I for one cannot wait...will you have a pre-order sticky when its ready?


Also, if you are interested in a trius group buy, there should be a thread for who wants to buy. I'll take two please.  

justin


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Umm whats this word about a Truis groupbuy......Umm looks like time to save up again . If anyone wants to do it i'd like to jump in, umm if i can con my parents into letting me get another set of drivers lol, and i can gather up the money . Don't you just love when you can't resist something....Damn you guys 

Oh yea and i want a set of these 6.5"s as well. Possibly for dedicated midbass duties if i get the trius' as well.

Wow ok where to get money now....


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## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

I'd like in on a pair too.  


npdang, I would not rush the production though. You know how ugly it can get if you rush the QA/QC managers  .
Get it done once, and get it done right!  

I'll wait for more good news.


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## Weightless (May 5, 2005)

amen kev,

quality is number one. i can't wait.


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## theNoid (Aug 8, 2005)

How do think this proto compares with say the Extremis mounted in the door for say 35Hz to 200Hz overall?

Noidster


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Different applications. Extremis is a low bass monster while this mid has a +3db boost around 80hz, and a steeper rolloff. It's meant to be as close to a "crossoverless" design as possible.


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## zfactor (Oct 19, 2005)

basket looks like the new xenon 6.5" from phoenix i know its not the same just saying what it appered to be...

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=14159

just wondering who is making the new phoenix stuff im sure its not as good as the old stuff was.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

That's the scariest speaker I've ever seen.... but the basket has changed since the old prototype.


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## Derek (Jun 4, 2005)

npdang said:


> That's the scariest speaker I've ever seen.... but the basket has changed since the old prototype.



maybe the ugliest speaker i've ever seen.....yikes. looks like a new high tech coffee can.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

This is the new basket/cone. Cosmetically, the final version should have a tall, thin rubber surround and the motor will be nickel plated.


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## zfactor (Oct 19, 2005)

very nice much nicer than the last one that looks very sweet, i cant wait for these i want a set so bad they would be perfect for me right now........man i cant win....


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## zfactor (Oct 19, 2005)

and yes i have sen the phoenix ones in person and man they look pretty nasty they actually look better in the pics and they dont perform at all well from my experiences with the new ones.


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

npdang said:


> This is the new basket/cone. Cosmetically, the final version should have a tall, thin rubber surround and the motor will be nickel plated.



hey man

what the overall diameter and cutout?

Im going to have to redo my dar door pods and might as well get them ready


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## mdma (Oct 1, 2005)

any news on the tweeter? release dates for either? 3-4mos, 6, 12, etc?


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Any news on the midrange Dang.....I may be getting a new amp soon, and would like to know a good idea about how much power it might like....i will most liekly have around [email protected] 4ohms available.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Right now, I'm really just trying to finalize the prototypes. I don't want to release something that isn't going to work the way I want it to. So right now I'm really waiting for revisions, and we'll see for there. 

It's out of my hands for 2 reasons. I don't control how long it takes to get a prototype, and I don't control what revisions they give me... even though you think I would it never really comes out "just" how you want it.

But basically once we have a finalized driver it shouldn't take more than a few weeks to release.


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Glad to hear, BTW i know i seem like just another person pushing finilization, but was only asking because i hadn't heard much about it over the last month. Keep at it Dang and they should be worth while.


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## tryin (Sep 23, 2005)

Man, I had initially planned on running some dayton rs's for midbass mainly because of the price. I think I will be saving up for some of these babies now. Gotta support this awesome site anyway I can....

Luckily, I'm in no hurry.


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## cotdt (Oct 3, 2005)

I haven't got a chance to read all 16 pages, but what is the size of the prototype: 6.5" or 7"?


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