# Car Speakers sound harsh/bright/piercing!



## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

I have 4" Polk db401 coaxials in the front of my 93 toyota corolla, with alpine type s 5.25 in the rear deck, both sets powered by a hifonics zeus zrx 600.4. I also have a Skar Audio VVX12d4 in a 1.75cu box @ 32hz, powered by a hifonics brz1200.1D @ 900 watts. All speakers in my car sound pretty harsh, even with deck adjustment.Tons of theories:
1. fronts simply being only 4"
2. all tweets covered by door panels (coaxial)
3. no sound deadening
4. amp is crappy
5. speakers themselves are pretty crappy
So, reading about everything, could i:
1. reverse polarity
2. cover tweeters with cloth of some kind
3. other suggestions for the time being?
Im on a really tight budget, so any mods will really help. also, if i HAD to get new speakers, what would suggest? do i NEED components or can i get away with higher quality coaxials like CDT?
i can modify front mounts to hold 5.25s, but they need to be slim mount, so the CDT HD55NX look pretty good.
Thanks for your help!


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

I would try to determine where the problem comes in by fading to front only and then to rear only. If you have EQ control then try dropping the top frequencies. I like the Polk tweet; my guess is the rear tweeters are causing it, and if when you fade to front it gets better just cover the rear tweeters with cloth to really knock them down.


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## Randyman... (Oct 7, 2012)

Troubleshooting as schmiddr2 suggests is a good way to isolate the primary offender. Making sure your current system is "Proper" before you go throwing cash at it is always the best bet...

Could be a combo of points 1 & 2 in your initial post IMO. The tweets are probably reflecting back into the door panel grilles like crazy (comb filtering). Add in the lack of any "hefty" lower-midrange and midbass response from the small drivers, and that is likely exacerbating the perceived harshness. Deadening probably wouldn't help the "harshness" frequency range IMO (unless you are talking about getting more midbass response from a properly sealed/deadened door) - and your gear is not trash by any means.

However, you mentioned you tried to "1. reverse polarity" - How did you do it? If your speaker wires are inverted somewhere - you can get a very thin sound that will obviously appear a little edgy and harsh (the midbass is acoustically canceling itself out). This could very well be your primary issue.

To quickly check all 4 speakers' polarity against each-other, I'd play a track with descent midbass, and fade to the front (kill the sub or have it really low so you can hear the mids/midbass well), and then balance to the left. Do you get more midbass/fuller midrange sound with the single left front speaker? Then one of your front speakers has inverted polarity - you need to flip the wires on one - but which one? To figure it out: Fade from the front left and add in the rear left. Again - do you get more or less midbass with both versus one? If you get less midbass with both, then I'd say the front left speaker's wires should be flipped. Check the rears against each other and flip wires on the right rear if needed - and double check the front right against the rest - and you should be golden. Checking polarity with a 9V battery is also an option (+ to + and - to - , speaker should push outward).

Then you can see how your mids sum with the sub, and flip the Sub's polarity as needed - but I kind of doubt you'll observe much audible difference with the (assumed) lack of midbass in the system.

_If you are good on correct speaker polarity_, it might just be #1 and #2 you mentioned. Cars are also a reflective/absorptive acoustical mess, and some harshness can be caused by the reflections off glass and such. These comb-filtering type issues are hard to address with EQ alone (speaker placement/aiming/dispersion is generally where you'd look).

Some other thoughts: Compromising by raising the sub's x-over point may help add some missing 90-120Hz range and add some overall "fullness" - but you'll likely need to tame the 80-120Hz range on the sub (or over-emphasize the 30-70Hz range and attenuate the overall sub level) with some parametric EQ (which you might not have). 

Lastly, still w/o spending any money - I might look into using the factory Polk/Alpine grilles if that's an option in your vehicle.

Now get to work!


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

May I add something...

Based on my experiences, if we have peak in frequency between 2-4khz or 6-7khz it could made your system sounded harsh. Try to cut it down several db if you can. thx


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## NonSenCe (Jun 4, 2011)

any chance of you beeing able to aim the tweeter/speaker a bit differently? some sound lot better when aimed even slightyly at you. 

harsh sound also could be that the small speakers are trying to produce too low frequencies. (check if changing crossover frequency helps)

they are well sealed into the door'and rear deck (no air puffing from flange because of too big of a hole for speaker)

distortion and extra rattles and noises make the sound crummy. does the doorpanel vibrate when they play? flexing and moving panel = noise maker. strengthen/dampen it a little if possible. 

the grille covering them is very likely culprit in bad sound. simply drilling bigger holes into the stock plastic grille has helped. or changing the grilles completely into screens etc. little bit of foam or cloth may dampen the tweeters well.. and sometimes one needs to remove the foam to get better sound (my current mercedes needed stock foam removal so it sounded better)


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

ok so I knew that the polks and alpines really couldn't be trash, so I did a quick ghetto test. Threw on some nice guitar heavy music (the typical culprit) and then got into the back seat to access the rear deck (alpines). I removed the rear deck which includes the plastic speaker covers, and put my head toward the tweeter. Sounded great. then moved the cover in front of it with my head in the same spot. notes were piercing and blended together. Did this a few more times, different songs, etc. SO my conclusion is in the diffraction. I have a 93 corolla, so mounting options are extremely limited. How could I get rid of the plastic in the rear deck and front kick panels yet still keep my speakers protected and keep it looking somewhat professional. 

P.S. I only have the 4" grilles for the polks, alpines do not come with grilles apparently (rip off)
Thanks so much guys!
Julian


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Don't go cutting up your grills. I know that your test made up your mind, but before you start cutting, why not leave the grills off and do some listening. I have put coaxials behind some downward vented grills and had them sound great. I think tuning and install may be more of an issue. Have you sealed and deadened the mounting area of the speakers? If the rear waves of the speaker are entering the cabin and cancelling out, it will indeed sound thin and perhaps harsh.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Unfortunately, I cant put any money into the system as of right now since im completely broke. So, im going to pop out the metal mesh in the rear deck and replace it with cloth from older home speakers, then worry about the front in a bit. maybe goin to do the same thing


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

ok well removing the grilles all around helped a bit, but its still a bit harsh. Ideally, I would invest in components in the front, matching coaxials in the rear, a better amp, and sound deadening. However, im quite tight on money, and im wondering what could help to soften up the sound a bit more. Could getting a cheapo 20 dollar crossover to put in the center console help to take down the harsher frequencies a bit? or would the crossover included in a new set of polk components for the front be sufficient. If i invest in new front components, the rear speakers are still a bit harsh, so how do i get rid of that? Also, i believe that the 4in speakers in the front just do not have enough mid/bass to fill so it comes off as all treble, and quite harsh. However, my girlfriend has JBLs all around, all door panel behind grilles, powered by a kicker 4 channel, in a Honda CRV. Her system is quite clear but MUCH less aggressive. How is this possible if the JBLs are mylar-titanium tweeters vs my polk and alpine silk? This is what makes me believe it may be the Hifonics 4 channel that i have, and simply switching to a more reliable JL Audio or Fosgate amp would ease up on the harshness. There are so many factors i have no idea where to start. I really appreciate all of your help guys!!


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Jburd728 said:


> ok well removing the grilles all around helped a bit, but its still a bit harsh. Ideally, I would invest in components in the front, matching coaxials in the rear, a better amp, and sound deadening. However, im quite tight on money, and im wondering what could help to soften up the sound a bit more. Could getting a cheapo 20 dollar crossover to put in the center console help to take down the harsher frequencies a bit? or would the crossover included in a new set of polk components for the front be sufficient. If i invest in new front components, the rear speakers are still a bit harsh, so how do i get rid of that? Also, i believe that the 4in speakers in the front just do not have enough mid/bass to fill so it comes off as all treble, and quite harsh. However, my girlfriend has JBLs all around, all door panel behind grilles, powered by a kicker 4 channel, in a Honda CRV. Her system is quite clear but MUCH less aggressive. How is this possible if the JBLs are mylar-titanium tweeters vs my polk and alpine silk? This is what makes me believe it may be the Hifonics 4 channel that i have, and simply switching to a more reliable JL Audio or Fosgate amp would ease up on the harshness. There are so many factors i have no idea where to start. I really appreciate all of your help guys!!


Stupid question time. Are you sure the high pass filter is not turned on on either the headunit or the amplifier?


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Spyke said:


> Stupid question time. Are you sure the high pass filter is not turned on on either the headunit or the amplifier?


ON? ummm, I don't want to blow the speakers so yes it is on...
alpine recommends around 100hz cut off for their 5.25 and polk recommends about 120hz for their 4in. I don't want to be sending freq that they cant handle...hell they cant even reproduce the sound under that limit...


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Jburd728 said:


> ON? ummm, I don't want to blow the speakers so yes it is on...
> alpine recommends around 100hz cut off for their 5.25 and polk recommends about 120hz for their 4in. I don't want to be sending freq that they cant handle...hell they cant even reproduce the sound under that limit...


Set them to 80 and give a listen. You can run fullrange if you want. As long as you don't turn them up to the point where they are distorting, your fine. I run my 5.25's at [email protected] and crank them up quite a bit (I cross them at 63 sometimes). I've also run 4 inchers at 60 and 80. They can't reproduce these lower freq with authority, but they can add enough so that they sound a little fuller.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

But the speakers only get harsh when I play them loud. So if I were to make them sound fuller but turning the HPF down to 80, I wouldn't even be able to play them as loud. Somewhat defeats the purpose IMO. ZRX600.4 CLAIMS 75 rms x 4, probably more like 50. The alpines are rated at 55 and the polks at 35, but when I do switch to full range as I have tried before, the alpines sound "thunky" and kinda boxy in the rear deck. but I will go give it a listen on 80hz in a bit on all four speakers and report back


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Jburd728 said:


> But the speakers only get harsh when I play them loud. So if I were to make them sound fuller but turning the HPF down to 80, I wouldn't even be able to play them as loud. Somewhat defeats the purpose IMO. ZRX600.4 CLAIMS 75 rms x 4, probably more like 50. The alpines are rated at 55 and the polks at 35, but when I do switch to full range as I have tried before, the alpines sound "thunky" and kinda boxy in the rear deck. but I will go give it a listen on 80hz in a bit on all four speakers and report back


Wait, you didn't say that it was only when turned up loud?! Imo, I think you* may* be trying to play them too loud. It's probably that they simply can't do what you are asking. BTW, It doesn't have to be bottoming out due to excessive bass to be distorting. I think its called power compression when a speaker can't keep up with electrical input(don't quote me on that term) Either that or the gain is too high causing distortion. Where is the gain set? What is the preout voltage of your hu? What volume do you turn it up to(xx/xx)? This won't tell me much but it'll give a feel of what end of the scale we're on.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Spyke said:


> Wait, you didn't say that it was only when turned up loud?! Imo, I think you* may* be trying to play them too loud. It's probably that they simply can't do what you are asking. BTW, It doesn't have to be bottoming out due to excessive bass to be distorting. I think its called power compression when a speaker can't keep up with electrical input(don't quote me on that term) Either that or the gain is too high causing distortion. Where is the gain set? What is the preout voltage of your hu? What volume do you turn it up to(xx/xx)? This won't tell me much but it'll give a feel of what end of the scale we're on.


yeah will all grilles off it is still too harsh. I turned off sub and then rear/front individually and they all get harsh at around 28-30/35. The gain is only about 1/3-1/2 up, so that I can have the sub running at maximum power without using bass boost. This is typically about 32/35 volume. They sound "fine" at 28 and below, but still tinny and not "full". checked all connections, they were fine. Turned up gain on amp for front with no rear/sub, and turned up to22/35 (loud with gain all the way up) and it was still harsh. I did get the alpines from a junkyard, I wonder if the tweeters could be damaged or something. Alpines are definitely more harsh and have quite a bit of sibiliance. however, the polks are warm and nice till crankin it up, then they start to get piercing. SSOOOOO, I think 5.25 polk db components up front may solve the problem for the front, as they will get louder without distorting. I really don't want to get new speakers and have the problem be with the headunit or amp. I really don't think that the amp could be the problem, simply because don't think it would make 3k-6k range sound poopy. The headunit is quite old, but shouldn't be a problem because I have an amp. The other problem is the fact that I have a 93 Toyota corolla, mostly glass and metal. I am dearly hoping that components will solve my problem, if not, I will make an MDF "tray" for the rear deck to mount the alpines, and maybe throw a bit behind the front woofers in the doors. Sorry for the extremely long post, and thank you so much for the input! thanks!


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Jburd728 said:


> yeah will all grilles off it is still too harsh. I turned off sub and then rear/front individually and they all get harsh at around 28-30/35. The gain is only about 1/3-1/2 up, so that I can have the sub running at maximum power without using bass boost. This is typically about 32/35 volume. They sound "fine" at 28 and below, but still tinny and not "full". checked all connections, they were fine. Turned up gain on amp for front with no rear/sub, and turned up to22/35 (loud with gain all the way up) and it was still harsh. I did get the alpines from a junkyard, I wonder if the tweeters could be damaged or something. Alpines are definitely more harsh and have quite a bit of sibiliance. however, the polks are warm and nice till crankin it up, then they start to get piercing. SSOOOOO, I think 5.25 polk db components up front may solve the problem for the front, as they will get louder without distorting. I really don't want to get new speakers and have the problem be with the headunit or amp. I really don't think that the amp could be the problem, simply because don't think it would make 3k-6k range sound poopy. The headunit is quite old, but shouldn't be a problem because I have an amp. The other problem is the fact that I have a 93 Toyota corolla, mostly glass and metal. I am dearly hoping that components will solve my problem, if not, I will make an MDF "tray" for the rear deck to mount the alpines, and maybe throw a bit behind the front woofers in the doors. Sorry for the extremely long post, and thank you so much for the input! thanks!


Just make sure you don't have any enhancements turned on (ie: bbe, loud, etc.) I'd hate for you to get new speakers and then find that it was just a setting. I'll agree though, 5" and 4" coax's are prob not gonna sound "full". Usually on cheaper coax's, the tweeter is way too bright since there is no attenuation. Often times they will cross the tweeter really high to compensate. This may be your complaint. Components will at least give you something to work with.(aiming and attenuation)


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Spyke said:


> Just make sure you don't have any enhancements turned on (ie: bbe, loud, etc.) I'd hate for you to get new speakers and then find that it was just a setting. I'll agree though, 5" and 4" coax's are prob not gonna sound "full". Usually on cheaper coax's, the tweeter is way too bright since there is no attenuation. Often times they will cross the tweeter really high to compensate. This may be your complaint. Components will at least give you something to work with.(aiming and attenuation)


Ugh no I like my sub way too much to destroy it with those crappy enhancements. I have bass +4, mid +2, treb -3 and its working kinda well up until they try to get loud.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Haven't read the whole thread but I'll add one big possible issue to your list; The need of a DSP.

No car sounds realistic (what I refer to as 'good') without EQ no matter what speakers/amps/source units you use. Harshness is most often caused by irregularities in frequency response, peaks that is. Some case it might be because of excessive distortion, the most likely source would be the speakers being overdriven. 

I bet you can improve your system beyond your expectations by investing in a DSP. Get one with auto setup if you don't feel for tuning yourself. Both JBL and Alpine got those, I'm sure there are others as well.


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## xBlitzkriegx (Dec 5, 2010)

from what youve told us, my opinion is that youre experiencing beaming from the 4" driver. your choices are cutting frequency around 3khz, angling the speaker off axis somehow, or changing speakers...hopefully with a better crossover for your application. 

now, for the lack of bass or fullness...a 4" driver isnt going to give it you. period. its too small. a larger driver could help out there but if the crossover is similar to what you have now, your harshness will come back.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> Haven't read the whole thread but I'll add one big possible issue to your list; The need of a DSP.
> 
> No car sounds realistic (what I refer to as 'good') without EQ no matter what speakers/amps/source units you use. Harshness is most often caused by irregularities in frequency response, peaks that is. Some case it might be because of excessive distortion, the most likely source would be the speakers being overdriven.
> 
> I bet you can improve your system beyond your expectations by investing in a DSP. Get one with auto setup if you don't feel for tuning yourself. Both JBL and Alpine got those, I'm sure there are others as well.


Reading the thread gives the impression that he doesn't want to drop $800 for a dsp.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

where is the lowpass on the sub? It seems to me you don't have much mid bass and I do hope the sub is doing that for you?
If it is crossed too low you'd have a huge hole in the frequency spectrum. I would invest in more cone area up front, ditch the rears and go from there. Surely there must be some place you can run bigger speakers up front.
Did you try all of the things in this post? I did not see your results from that...



Randyman... said:


> Troubleshooting as schmiddr2 suggests is a good way to isolate the primary offender. Making sure your current system is "Proper" before you go throwing cash at it is always the best bet...
> 
> Could be a combo of points 1 & 2 in your initial post IMO. The tweets are probably reflecting back into the door panel grilles like crazy (comb filtering). Add in the lack of any "hefty" lower-midrange and midbass response from the small drivers, and that is likely exacerbating the perceived harshness. Deadening probably wouldn't help the "harshness" frequency range IMO (unless you are talking about getting more midbass response from a properly sealed/deadened door) - and your gear is not trash by any means.
> 
> ...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Spyke said:


> Reading the thread gives the impression that he doesn't want to drop $800 for a dsp.


Noticed... Read it now so nvm


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Wesayso said:


> *where is the lowpass on the sub?* It seems to me you don't have much mid bass and I do hope the sub is doing that for you?
> If it is crossed too low you'd have a huge hole in the frequency spectrum. I would invest in more cone area up front, ditch the rears and go from there. Surely there must be some place you can run bigger speakers up front.
> Did you try all of the things in this post? I did not see your results from that...


Good thinking. If the sub is lp'ed at 60 then there is no way this setup will work. That said, I have had a 4" 2 way active front before and it is very possible to get good sound even with tiny midbass drivers. Proper sub xo and alignment are critical. Well it's always critical, just more so when you are trying to blend to smaller drivers. I only have a 5.25" front now.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Spyke said:


> Good thinking. If the sub is lp'ed at 60 then there is no way this setup will work. That said, I have had a 4" 2 way active front before and it is very possible to get good sound even with tiny midbass drivers. Proper sub xo and alignment are critical. Well it's always critical, just more so when you are trying to blend to smaller drivers. I only have a 5.25" front now.


My sub is lp'd @ about 100hz (hard to tell with ****ty "no numbers" hifonics design)
the problem is definitely not the spectrum as a whole sounding not as full as it should. It sounds beautiful and I freakin love it (especially the sub), all except the tweeters (really really think its the rear speakers) are VERY over-emphasized with higher levels of listening. Its not that it doesn't sound clear or crisp, its just harsh. the really high (6k-16k) notes kind of crash together and it becomes "noisy" and like cymbals crashing IN your ears. Ive order 5.25 polk components to put up front. Im gonna cut the mounts in the car to try to fit them, may have to use some MDF to space it more or something. Then im going to cut little holes in the trim between the edge of the windshield and front doors (where the A-pillar WOULD be), and put the tweeters in there. ill play around with some Velcro or something to find the right alignment first, of course. Then for the rears, im gonna turn them down some more, then put some foam in the grill directly over the tweeter (about 1" diameter), and see if that calms them down a bit. If not, ill grab some 5.25 (or 6.5 with mods) polk coaxial and throw them in there. I definitely think these components will help. But you do have to realize my car WAS a budget car in the early 90s, so now its just......metal...and glass. Not the greatest environment.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

purchased polk 5.25 components, heavily modded the front of my car, and installed them. looks great, STILL HARSH. ugh. however, put treble -6, mid +6, and bass +4, and it sounds much better. the midrange (not mid bass) in my car is severely lacking. The only other components making this sound harsh would be the amp or the head unit. which would it be? whats the next step?
oh
and bump.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

bump. bumpity bump bump.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Do you still have the back speakers playing mid/high's as well? If you still have coaxes in the back I'd try disconnecting them for a while. With multiple sources playing those mid/high parts you could get all sorts of comb filtering. It's easy to try without for a while to see if things improve.
Next you could try to bandpass the back speakers IF it helps having them off. And/Or hook them up with L-R or mono.
Personally I tried L-R and mono/stereo back fill and it just sounded better with it off. My L-R wasn't a true L-R though, because time alignment wacked it up. The only rear fill I am willing to try now is bandpassed and delayed (~20 ms) L-R.

Another option, have you tried playing with polarity? Reverse one mid + and - wire? I'd suggest trying everything on here (as far as available to you):
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/33740-simple-way-tune-courtesy-cmusic.html

Where did the components end up? Any pictures?


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

ok ill try disconnecting them for a bit. the fronts still have the same sound as the old sound though, just fuller and louder. Would it be more likely that the head unit or the amp would be the culprit? because the amp is fairly new and got great ratings everywhere, but my headunit is from like 2004-5, and is kinda ratty. Also, it only has one set of pre-outs, I don't think daisy-chaining would make a sound difference though
also, could having bass +4, mid +6, treble -6 blow my new polks? they say 100rms, and my amp only claims 70rms, so I think they could handle more.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Jburd728 said:


> purchased polk 5.25 components, heavily modded the front of my car, and installed them. looks great, STILL HARSH. ugh. however, put treble -6, mid +6, and bass +4, and it sounds much better. the midrange (not mid bass) in my car is severely lacking. The only other components making this sound harsh would be the amp or the head unit. which would it be? whats the next step?
> oh
> and bump.


EQ. You need a DSP. The environment is what's making your speakers sound harsh, not the headunits or the amps.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Jburd728 said:


> purchased polk 5.25 components, heavily modded the front of my car, and installed them. looks great, STILL HARSH. ugh. however, put treble -6, mid +6, and bass +4, and it sounds much better. the midrange (not mid bass) in my car is severely lacking. The only other components making this sound harsh would be the amp or the head unit. which would it be? whats the next step?
> oh
> and bump.


Did you lower the highpass? Did you seal the back waves from reaching the cabin area? Did you try swapping polarity on the sub? 

Just for S&G's, try turning the highpass off and see how it sounds.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

so, I turned the back and sub all the way down to give a listen, and it sounds really crackly, and "grainy". not clean. sounds like distortion I would say. even at like 25/35 with the gain half way and flat EQ. WHY IS THIS HAPPENING.

also, turned to full range with no high pass and it didn't make it any better, just made the speakers make "thunk" noises when the bass hit.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Jburd728 said:


> so, I turned the back and sub all the way down to give a listen, and it sounds really crackly, and "grainy". not clean. sounds like distortion I would say. even at like 25/35 with the gain half way and flat EQ. WHY IS THIS HAPPENING.
> 
> also, turned to full range with no high pass and it didn't make it any better*, just made the speakers make "thunk" noises when the bass hit.*


That sounds like some speaker have the wrong polarity and you having a phase cancellation. Otherwise it's faulty equipment or some install related issue (like speaker cables touching ground is common). You'll have to troubleshoot and test each piece of equipment separately to rule out that. 

First off I'd check polarity of your speakers, easy way to check is to pull balance to the left or the right. If it sounds better with only one side playing (more bass) you have something connected wrong. 

For the record (low/mid/tre EQ) is hardly a very useful EQ if it's not parametric (choose frequency yourself and shape (narrow, wide)). Harshness is most likely caused by peaks in frequency response, holds true in most cases. But you need a more POWERFUL EQ


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Jburd728 said:


> ok ill try disconnecting them for a bit. the fronts still have the same sound as the old sound though, just fuller and louder. Would it be more likely that the head unit or the amp would be the culprit? because the amp is fairly new and got great ratings everywhere, but my headunit is from like 2004-5, and is kinda ratty. Also, it only has one set of pre-outs, I don't think daisy-chaining would make a sound difference though
> also, could having bass +4, mid +6, treble -6 blow my new polks? they say 100rms, and my amp only claims 70rms, so I think they could handle more.


I don't think it is your amp or head unit. But.... another head unit could give you more to play with. I love having seperate left and right EQ as well as time alignment.
It all depends on your goals for the sound. Some like music everywhere (like in a club) and some are hooked on the stereo sound. I fall in that last category after succeeding to get that right. But that also means no rear fill for me, except the mentioned bandpassed time aligned L-R.
But if I opted for club sound I would still want time alignment on al speakers and use it on rear fill.

How about those pictures showing where you have the speakers?


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

well I switched out the amp from the old A/B powering my sub, and hooked up just one set of components (front right), and gave it a listen. Exactly the same. So, its not the amp. Ive looked at each speaker and they all sound the same so its not a polarity thing, and I have Poweramp for my droid, so its not a "peak" in freq response. Without adjustment on the HU EQ, it is AWFUL. like ALL sub-bass and treble. like a gap from 250hz-3k hz. So, turning the bass and mid up fills it in a bit, but it still isn't what I want. Turning bass boost on the HU up helps a bit, but I wont leave that on for fear of blowing the speakers. What about BB on the Amp? is that awful to do in this situation? Honestly I think its the head unit. Its pretty old, it picks up ALT whine, has a hard time grounding, and doesn't read CDs. COULD the head unit alter the signal being played to the speaker BEFORE it reaches the amp? could it just be pushing the wrong freqs?

Oh, and its raining right now I cant grab those pics for ya. The tweeters are in the door panel about an inch up and over from the door handle. Points very slightly into the cabin, but mostly straight ahead. Looks pretty stock actually. Was INCREDIBLY annoying to wire.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Jburd728 said:


> well I switched out the amp from the old A/B powering my sub, and hooked up just one set of components (front right), and gave it a listen. Exactly the same. So, its not the amp. Ive looked at each speaker and they all sound the same so its not a polarity thing, and I have Poweramp for my droid, so its not a "peak" in freq response. Without adjustment on the HU EQ, it is AWFUL. like ALL sub-bass and treble. like a gap from 250hz-3k hz. So, turning the bass and mid up fills it in a bit, but it still isn't what I want. Turning bass boost on the HU up helps a bit, but I wont leave that on for fear of blowing the speakers. What about BB on the Amp? is that awful to do in this situation? Honestly I think its the head unit. Its pretty old, it picks up ALT whine, has a hard time grounding, and doesn't read CDs. COULD the head unit alter the signal being played to the speaker BEFORE it reaches the amp? could it just be pushing the wrong freqs?
> 
> Oh, and its raining right now I cant grab those pics for ya. The tweeters are in the door panel about an inch up and over from the door handle. Points very slightly into the cabin, but mostly straight ahead. Looks pretty stock actually. Was INCREDIBLY annoying to wire.


Sounds weird... I find it unlikely that a HU would cause such issues... Hm.

Can't you bypass it? Hook up an iPod or portable mp3 player or something directly to the amp? Then you can rule the HU out.

You can run your speakers from some random home audio amp directly and see if it still sounds like crap.

Final question. Have you measured the frequency response?


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> Sounds weird... I find it unlikely that a HU would cause such issues... Hm.
> 
> Can't you bypass it? Hook up an iPod or portable mp3 player or something directly to the amp? Then you can rule the HU out.
> 
> ...


I hooked a rca to 3.5mm directly to the amp chain, and its a bit better, not a real improvement. I don't like this.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Jburd728 said:


> ok ill try disconnecting them for a bit. the fronts still have the same sound as the old sound though, just fuller and louder. Would it be more likely that the head unit or the amp would be the culprit? because the amp is fairly new and got great ratings everywhere, but my headunit is from like 2004-5, and is kinda ratty. Also, it only has one set of pre-outs, I don't think daisy-chaining would make a sound difference though
> also, could having bass +4, mid +6, treble -6 blow my new polks? they say 100rms, and my amp only claims 70rms, so I think they could handle more.


I think i'm getting a headache from this thread. 

Just a story. I use a 2001 kenwood hu powering lightning audio 6.5" coaxials in my work truck. They get down and I love the sound of them. I've actually sung their praises a couple times in other threads. They are never harsh and sound very full. Now, when I crank them up *beyond* what can be expected of them, they sound not so great. Also, I keep the eq flat.

Imo, there are two possibilities:
1. You are asking too much of them and are playing them too loud. You alluded to this earlier by saying that they distort unless you have the hpf turned on. I have a 2way front stage with 5.25's and I can turn the hpf off and max my hu and they are just starting to distort at full volume. A hpf is *not* intended to make speakers able to play louder.

2. I would rule out hu and amp simply because equipment has never been the problem in any of my installs. I've changed equipment of course but it's never solved anything really. I would take a *serious* look into how the speakers are installed. Make sure there isn't any openings that would allow the sound from the back of the speaker to enter into the cabin thus causing cancellation of the lower freq. Also, deaden the speaker mounting area(This makes a big difference in midbass reproduction) *Sealing and deadening is critical.*


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

I think tomorrow im gonna take my vintage Kenwoods out and hook them to the amp. would eliminate HU, AMP, and single out environment or speakers. Then ill take speakers inside and test em on my ONKYO.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Spyke said:


> I think i'm getting a headache from this thread.
> 
> Just a story. I use a 2001 kenwood hu powering lightning audio 6.5" coaxials in my work truck. They get down and I love the sound of them. I've actually sung their praises a couple times in other threads. They are never harsh and sound very full. Now, when I crank them up *beyond* what can be expected of them, they sound not so great. Also, I keep the eq flat.
> 
> ...


Well there are MULTIPLE holes in the doors, and its definitely not the best construction. My friend and I had to construct new mounts from MDF, lets just say its kinda ghetto. however, my cars doors are just 2 layers of thin aluminum, and the whole door panel is made from like 1/8 inch ****ty fiberboard. I really don't want to deaden my doors, as my car is old and ill probably be needing a new one in about a year, and it would be quite expensive to deaden it. Is there any cheap way to makeshift deaden it?


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

If you are serious about sound quality I'd seal up those holes. Here's how I did mine:









I cut some aluminum sheet (not very expensive) and bolted that to the doors and some deadening over those sheets. Between that and the door cards I have some weather strip in a crossed patern and mlv glued to my door card. (like this: )








The weather strip is between the deadened door and MLV to decouple. I couldn't get something like closed cell foam sheets in time.

I consider it cheap for what it does, cheaper than my amp or speakers by a long shot!
The aluminum seals up the doors to block the back wave. The deadener keeps vibrations down, the weather strip (rather had closed cell foam sheet) decouples the door card and prevents rattles and MLV is good at blocking sound. Some people go multi layer with deadening sheets but I found this method very effective.


End result: loud (if I want) and clean sound. Well balanced after tuning.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

The problem is.that wouldn't explain why the rear speakers sounded bad as well cause they are sealed in stock mounts in the rear deck


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

The problem is we can't hear it on the forum . Makes it hard to tell what is going on.
It sounds bad at low as well as high volume?


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Jburd728 said:


> The problem is.that wouldn't explain why the rear speakers sounded bad as well cause they are sealed in stock mounts in the rear deck


Gotta start somewhere. I don't use rears, so they would be the least of my concern. Also, The rear deck metal is usually full of holes as well.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Wesayso said:


> The problem is we can't hear it on the forum . Makes it hard to tell what is going on.


Agreed. If I could hear it, I would prob be able to tell you what's wrong in about 10 seconds.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Wesayso said:


> It sounds bad at low as well as high volume?


I was wondering this as well. Serious question: Are your ears ringing or muffled when you get out of your car after a drive?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

A measurement of FR at low and high volume would be even more helpful


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Spyke said:


> I was wondering this as well. Serious question: Are your ears ringing or muffled when you get out of your car after a drive?


= Peaky FR


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> = Peaky FR


and/or high volumes.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

At 28-30 yeah they ring/are muffled for a bit. but at low volumes the bass and midrange is not very full. doesn't get worse when louder but is much more apparent. i like listening loud with most music. same with earbuds/headphones


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Jburd728 said:


> At 28-30 yeah they ring/are muffled for a bit. but at low volumes the bass and midrange is not very full. doesn't get worse when louder but is much more apparent. i like listening loud with most music. same with earbuds/headphones


I don't like to hear that(especially the earbuds). You're *gonna* damage your hearing. Seriously, take care of it while you are young. There's a few guys on this forum who are kicking themselves for not being more careful years ago. It's very real and it does happen.

That said; I think you have tuning issues. Always tune at low/listening volume(15-20/35 range). Set your hpf on your hu if you can. I don't like using amp xo's because what looks like 100hz may actually be 150hz. That'll throw your sound off also. There is a way to set them accurately but it's easier to use the active hu xo in this case. Set it at 80. There is really no reason to set it higher. If they are distorting at 80, it's too loud. And yeah yeah, I know, if it's too loud you're too old.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Yeah but at 100rms, they shouldn't be distorting. my gf has jbl gtos in her car and they get pretty loud and loud great but they are kinda harsh with the aluminum tweeters


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Why? I can make a 100w speaker distort off of 5w. I can also make a 5w speaker distort off of 100w. Tweeter material has little to do with harshness.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

ugh. Well at volume 25 (reasonable listening volume), with the sub off, and bass +6, Mid +4, and treble flat or -2 (depending on the song). It actually sounds very good. But I want it LOUDER. These polks are supposed to be nice fronts, and supposedly get loud, what gives? my girl has 6.5 JBL GTO coaxials in her doors and they handle the power all the way to the top of the volume knob (running off old eclipse HU and kicker 4 channel). Also, would deadening my doors make it so that I wouldn't need to put bass +6, mid+4? if so, they would get louder. If this was the case, however, why did these speakers get so many good reviews saying they sound great and get loud???

Also, I have sub Lp'd around 80-120hz (barely moves at 25 vol/900rms yet still can feel it) and the speakers Hp'd at about 80-100. Does the crossover in the components make it so that you don't need to Hp? I tried it and it didn't sound too different, figured it doesn't really matter since my sub covers that area with ease.

Oh, AAAND, I have the gain at about halfway for the front components, would turning that up make them more efficient? soo many variables....sorry for all the questions guys...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Jburd728 said:


> ugh. Well at volume 25 (reasonable listening volume), with the sub off, and bass +6, Mid +4, and treble flat or -2 (depending on the song). It actually sounds very good. But I want it LOUDER. These polks are supposed to be nice fronts, and supposedly get loud, what gives? my girl has 6.5 JBL GTO coaxials in her doors and they handle the power all the way to the top of the volume knob (running off old eclipse HU and kicker 4 channel). Also, would deadening my doors make it so that I wouldn't need to put bass +6, mid+4? if so, they would get louder. If this was the case, however, why did these speakers get so many good reviews saying they sound great and get loud???
> 
> Also, I have sub Lp'd around 80-120hz (barely moves at 25 vol/900rms yet still can feel it) and the speakers Hp'd at about 80-100. Does the crossover in the components make it so that you don't need to Hp? I tried it and it didn't sound too different, figured it doesn't really matter since my sub covers that area with ease.
> 
> Oh, AAAND, I have the gain at about halfway for the front components, would turning that up make them more efficient? soo many variables....sorry for all the questions guys...


First off. Gain is not a volume knob. There are several thread how to set it correctly. Highpass filters come with a slope setting and it's important for the filters function.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

A 5.25" cone isn't as big as a 6.5" cone. Sensitivity of speakers can differ as well to explain the differences in achievable sound level. But to get loud you usually need cone area and a high x-max rating on your speaker. The rest you can solve with amp power.
Your polks seem to have a 93 dB sensitivity (if I got the model right) which should make them loud off of low power/volume.
Judging your preference you could benefit from a different amplifier and/or head unit. It may well be your speakers can handle more than your amp is bringing to the table. But like Spyke said, your well on your way to damage your ears at that level.
I have bought a cheap radio shack SPL meter to know at what level I play my music.
I keep it at 96 dB max with music. I only hit 96 dB with low notes as I have a loudness curve on in my tuning. It sounds to me you could benefit from such a loudness curve to make it seem louder but have the 200- 6K range a bit lower to protect the ears... 
Just an idea...

Else I would recommend horns to you, they go loud.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> First off. Gain is not a volume knob. There are several thread how to set it correctly. Highpass filters come with a slope setting and it's important for the filters function.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


not sure what you are trying to say here.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Wesayso said:


> A 5.25" cone isn't as big as a 6.5" cone. Sensitivity of speakers can differ as well to explain the differences in achievable sound level. But to get loud you usually need cone area and a high x-max rating on your speaker. The rest you can solve with amp power.
> Your polks seem to have a 93 dB sensitivity (if I got the model right) which should make them loud off of low power/volume.
> *Judging your preference you could benefit from a different amplifier and/or head unit. It may well be your speakers can handle more than your amp is bringing to the table. *But like Spyke said, your well on your way to damage your ears at that level.
> I have bought a cheap radio shack SPL meter to know at what level I play my music.
> ...


Why would more power make it better if they are already distorting at low volume???


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Jburd728 said:


> not sure what you are trying to say here.


Gain is not a volume knob meaning: A 100w amp will produce 100w with the gain at minimum or maximum and anywhere in between. The difference is that it will reach full output at different points on your hu volume. Example: With the gain all the way down you might reach full output at 32/35. With the gain all the way up you might reach full output at 12/35. These numbers are just examples btw.

I did think about something though. If your midrange amp gain is halfway and your sub gain is halfway, this could be the problem. You said earlier that the sub was barely moving at high volumes? I have always had to have the sub gain up higher than the mid/high gain. What I usually do is set my mid high amp gains and leave them. I am fairly liberal with my sub amp gain and set it to where it feels right. My mid gains usually end up about 1/4-1/3 of the way up and my sub gain usually ends up around 3/4.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Jburd728 said:


> Why would more power make it better if they are already distorting at low volume???


Are you trolling?


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Spyke said:


> Gain is not a volume knob meaning: A 100w amp will produce 100w with the gain at minimum or maximum and anywhere in between. The difference is that it will reach full output at different points on your hu volume. Example: With the gain all the way down you might reach full output at 32/35. With the gain all the way up you might reach full output at 12/35. These numbers are just examples btw.
> 
> I did think about something though. If your midrange amp gain is halfway and your sub gain is halfway, this could be the problem. You said earlier that the sub was barely moving at high volumes? I have always had to have the sub gain up higher than the mid/high gain. What I usually do is set my mid high amp gains and leave them. I am fairly liberal with my sub amp gain and set it to where it feels right. My mid gains usually end up about 1/4-1/3 of the way up and my sub gain usually ends up around 3/4.


no my sub gain is all the way up, but I have a volume knob that connect to the front under the HU. This way I can change it depending on the recording/song/genre. But would turning up the amp as opposed to the HU make any difference (in regards to the 4 channel)?


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Spyke said:


> Are you trolling?


no, just 19 and don't know every thing. Only been at this for about a 6 months. Cut me a break man. First car, first system, I want it to sound right. Who wouldn't?


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Jburd728 said:


> Why would more power make it better if they are already distorting at low volume???


There are different kinds of distortion. An overdriven speaker distorts but an overpowered amp can also distort.

Hanatsu was trying to tell you to set the amp gains so it won't distort (much) at high volume.
Your amp ratings are lower than your speaker specs. So it may be that your head unit has fairly low level output and you're using amp gain to overcome that. That could mean a distorted signal to your speaker. 

Not saying it is though. but it is something you might want to look in to.
Make sure the gains are set properly. You can be a bit more liberal with the gain on your sub because it's harder to hear distortion in that signal.
In an ideal world one would use an oscope to set gains.
I've done it with a multimeter to get it close. But I don't play anywhere near the max volume anyway. It gets loud enough at 40-45 from a 0-62 volume.
I set the gains with a multimeter at 58 on the volume (!). I am pretty sure the HU doesn't even clip at 62 seeing the tests here on this forum of comparable models. That way I am sure I have a relative clean signal to my speakers. I even backed of the gain a bit because I don't need it as loud and to keep the noise floor down.
Try to search on here for setting gains, lots of ways to do it. Pick one and go with it. But don't use it as a volume knob .


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

also, where should the HPF be set for components? Does the crossover implement bass blockers? Or is it just like coaxial settings?


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Wesayso said:


> There are different kinds of distortion. An overdriven speaker distorts but an overpowered amp can also distort.
> 
> Hanatsu was trying to tell you to set the amp gains so it won't distort (much) at high volume.
> Your amp ratings are lower than your speaker specs. So it may be that your head unit has fairly low level output and you're using amp gain to overcome that. That could mean a distorted signal to your speaker.
> ...


Ok that sounds like it makes sense, where would I find specific instructions for MY setup though?


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## D-Bass (Apr 27, 2012)

"Loud" is relative to the observer. Your definition of loud may be different from someone else who reviewed these speakers.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

ok sorry for the continuous stream of questions, but could someone try to explain the headunit volume/amp gain relation for distortion?


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

D-Bass said:


> "Loud" is relative to the observer. Your definition of loud may be different from someone else who reviewed these speakers.


true dat. damn subjectivity.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

ok I got home and played around with the gain and volume after reading a few things but it doesn't change anything, just makes it so that I don't have to turn up as much to get the same volume and vice versa. However, when just listening out of one speaker set, I notice that all through the volume (low to high) the sound still sounds grainy and not clean. But I tried plugging in my phone straight into the amp to see if it helped, and its exactly the same, so I don't think that its the head unit. I understand that my install could be off, but why would this not be able to get as loud and not distort vs the 4 inch speakers I had in before. They never distorted but didn't have great bass. The rear speakers don't distort either, but they have very harsh treble and midrange. The fronts, however, are grainy and rattly, and cant handle any power at all.

This is by far the most annoying and frustrating thing that has ever happened in my life. FUK


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

So you're using 5'25" comps... ? 

A 'normal' 5'25" comp set doesn't have cone area or excursion to produce the sPL levels you're expecting (I presume). The HPF primary function is to limit excursion and as long you don't reach thermal limit by overpowering the drivers you simply need to remove the frequencies that cause the overexcursion by raising highpass frequency. Also the slope should be considered if it's adjustable (slope is the rolloff, how fast the volume decreases below the HP frequency - often between 6-24dB/oct). Excursion increases four times for each octave decrease (octave = half/double given frequency, i.e 20/40/80/160Hz etc...)

High SPL levels at low frequencies requires high volume displacement. From a 5'25" you'll need enormous excursion below 100Hz at "high" volume. Pushing a speaker beyond Xmax will result in high amounts of distortion, mainly 3rd order harmonic distortion, which sound unnatural and overall bad. Distortion comes in the forms of overtones, sometimes far from the frequencies that cause the distortion. This is a major source of muddy midrange. Intermodulation is another form of non linear distortion that will affect a wide spectrum of frequencies when multiple frequencies are playing at the same time.

Basically, don't expect miracles from such small drivers. Reproducing SPL levels above 96dB/1m will result in audible distortion in a wide range of frequencies. Depending on how good this set performs it might produce considerable amounts of nonlinear distortion and in combination with an irregular FR it might just sound like crap.

If it sounds bad at low levels you might have damaged the speakers or they might just be faulty.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Ok, well i don't need anything below 100Hz my sub takes.care of that. I stated earlier that it was lacking in the mid range not the bass section. it lacks "fullness" sounds tinny and not good. The tweeters crackle often no matter the volume


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Sounds like the speakers are damaged (the 'crackle'). Can you hook up some small home audio speaker to the amp and listen inside the car. Run the signal through the headunit, if it sounds better then you'll know what the problem is...


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

But theyre brand new! Literally one day old. could i have gotten some faulty polks? Ill hook my old 4in up and see how they sound, then play the new ones through my 5.1 ONKYO


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

And they claim 100 rms i REALLY don't think i damaged them with my little hifonics amp lol. i only turned it to 28/35 with gain half way too...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Jburd728 said:


> But theyre brand new! Literally one day old. could i have gotten some faulty polks? Ill hook my old 4in up and see how they sound, then play the new ones through my 5.1 ONKYO


Yeah.. good idea. To have any idea what's wrong you need to isolate each component and test it. Seems pretty unlikely if they're brand new. But it has actually happened to me twice that I got faulty speakers. One time with a pair of midwoofers that the phase plug was off center and sounded horrible and another time with a pair of P-G tweeters that distorted like crap right out of the box, when I got replacements they sounded awesome, so obviously faulty even when they were brand new.

Not saying it happens a lot, I've bought tons of speakers over the years and it (only?) happened twice. Still not acceptable but there it is ^^

Try record the distorted sound at low volume with a cell phone or something, might be able to tell what is it...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Jburd728 said:


> And they claim 100 rms i REALLY don't think i damaged them with my little hifonics amp lol. i only turned it to 28/35 with gain half way too...


The tweeter is hardly rated for 100Wrms btw. The rating is "system power". Most of the energy goes to the mid. The tweeter probably dies from far less power. Even if it didn't end up in smoke I sure don't wanna listen to that tweeter at 100W output, well not without 5 layers of ear protection xD


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

You could blow 100w speakers with a 10w amp if you're square waving the crap out of them.(Driving the amp or hu into distortion) You're just cranking them up too loud. 28/35 with the gain half way on a 100wpc amp is way too much, especially if you have the bass on the hu at +6. I have a 50x4 with the gain around 1/4 and I rarely exceed 22/35 on the hu. I can however turn it all the way up with no distortion. 

You NEED to set your gains properly. Get a multimeter($12) and a test tone cd ($15) and search for "how to set gains using a dmm".

The fact that you've already blown a new set of speakers shows that your just cranking it the hell up with no understanding of how everything works. You did break the speakers in right? I know you're new at this but idk what to tell you anymore. Set your gains, $30 for the dmm and test tone cd is way cheaper than buying speakers every week. Also, I think your expectations for a 5" speaker may be a little high.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Spyke said:


> You could blow 100w speakers with a 10w amp if you're square waving the crap out of them.(Driving the amp or hu into distortion)


Actually not very likely, it will sound like crap though  (Without passives, tweets might be damaged by bursts of square waves, thermal failure that is)

Quote from the site below;



> If your speakers are capable of handling significantly more than your amplifier can produce, driving them with a clipped signal will not likely hurt them.
> 
> If the speakers can handle 3 or 4 times the power that your amplifier can produce, there's virtually no way to damage your speakers (no matter how clipped the signal is).
> 
> ...


Why Too Little Power will NOT blow Your Speakers


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> Actually not very likely, it will sound like crap though  (Without passives, tweets might be damaged by bursts of square waves, thermal failure that is)
> 
> Quote from the site below;
> 
> ...


Those quotes have good points but I don't totally agree. When you start sending dc current to a voice coil it's gonna heat up. If you keep doing it it's gonna fail. But yeah, most likely you'll blow the tweeters.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> Yeah.. good idea. To have any idea what's wrong you need to isolate each component and test it. Seems pretty unlikely if they're brand new. But it has actually happened to me twice that I got faulty speakers. One time with a pair of midwoofers that the phase plug was off center and sounded horrible and another time with a pair of P-G tweeters that distorted like crap right out of the box, when I got replacements they sounded awesome, so obviously faulty even when they were brand new.
> 
> Not saying it happens a lot, I've bought tons of speakers over the years and it (only?) happened twice. Still not acceptable but there it is ^^
> 
> Try record the distorted sound at low volume with a cell phone or something, might be able to tell what is it...


alright thanks so much i do really appreciate everyone's input you are incredibly helpful!! The problem is that i scratched one of the woofer baskets on the door, and if i have to return them im afraid they won't refund it! Well ill address that when if comes down to it. what test tone should i use??


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Spyke said:


> You could blow 100w speakers with a 10w amp if you're square waving the crap out of them.(Driving the amp or hu into distortion) You're just cranking them up too loud. 28/35 with the gain half way on a 100wpc amp is way too much, especially if you have the bass on the hu at +6. I have a 50x4 with the gain around 1/4 and I rarely exceed 22/35 on the hu. I can however turn it all the way up with no distortion.
> 
> You NEED to set your gains properly. Get a multimeter($12) and a test tone cd ($15) and search for "how to set gains using a dmm".
> 
> The fact that you've already blown a new set of speakers shows that your just cranking it the hell up with no understanding of how everything works. You did break the speakers in right? I know you're new at this but idk what to tell you anymore. Set your gains, $30 for the dmm and test tone cd is way cheaper than buying speakers every week. Also, I think your expectations for a 5" speaker may be a little high.


Really? I don't just crank it up obviously i have an idea of what im doing. if o had the same settings i had with 4in polks yet they sounded better, something is wrong. i didn't blow them out of the box with 20 minutes of not loud music.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

And its a non-CEA rated hifonocs claiming 70rms per channel. fyi


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Jburd728 said:


> Really? I don't just crank it up obviously i have an idea of what im doing. if o had the same settings i had with 4in polks yet they sounded better, something is wrong. i didn't blow them out of the box with 20 minutes of not loud music.


I'm not trying to be rude but you have given me the impression that the volume is near or past the ragged edge every time you listen to your system. 



Jburd728 said:


> But the speakers only get harsh when I play them loud. So if I were to make them sound fuller but turning the HPF down to 80, I wouldn't even be able to play them as loud. Somewhat defeats the purpose IMO. ZRX600.4 CLAIMS 75 rms x 4, probably more like 50.


Like this. ^

Just for ****s, try this: Set your hp filters to 80 and the lp filter to 60.(should be almost all the way down on these amps) Listen to it at a lowish volume. Try swapping the subs polarity and pick the polarity setting that is the loudest* at the xo freq*. Don't listen to the deep sub bass, listen a little higher when doing this. Next, once you have the sub and mids roughly aligned, Adjust the sub level, from the hu, until the sub blends in. Give that a try and let us know how it sounds. Also, leave all eq at 0 for now. You may just have mid to sub alignment issues.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Spyke said:


> I'm not trying to be rude but you have given me the impression that the volume is near or past the ragged edge every time you listen to your system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ok tomorrow is my fix em day, I have off from work. Ill do that first since its the least elaborate troubleshoot. Then ill bring out old speakers to test with HU/Amp, and bring out my Onkyo to test the speakers. THEN, I thought of stuffing old fiberglass insulation in the doors (this might be stupid, just let me know), And then using 1/8" MDF to seal up the holes you guys referred to. Quick question: is a system supposed to sound good without head unit EQ? if yes, is that the head unit's fault?


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Jburd728 said:


> ok tomorrow is my fix em day, I have off from work. Ill do that first since its the least elaborate troubleshoot. Then ill bring out old speakers to test with HU/Amp, and bring out my Onkyo to test the speakers. THEN, I thought of stuffing old fiberglass insulation in the doors (this might be stupid, just let me know), And then using 1/8" MDF to seal up the holes you guys referred to. Quick question: is a system supposed to sound good without head unit EQ? if yes, is that the head unit's fault?


It looks like you would want an excuse to get a new HU. 
If you do I'd recommend something like the 80PRS from Pioneer. That would give you a wold of new tools like left/right EQ, Time alignment and active crossovers.
But before you do I'd recommend to get to the bottom of this first! This should be simple compared to a HU like the PRS. Much more can go wrong with something like that! So first fix what you got while learning why and then move on to bigger and better gear. (just my humble opinion)


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Jburd728 said:


> ok tomorrow is my fix em day, I have off from work. Ill do that first since its the least elaborate troubleshoot. Then ill bring out old speakers to test with HU/Amp, and bring out my Onkyo to test the speakers. THEN,* I thought of stuffing old fiberglass insulation in the doors (this might be stupid, just let me know), *And then using 1/8" MDF to seal up the holes you guys referred to.


I wouldn't do this for 2 reasons. 1. I hate using fiberglass insulation as stuffing. Get some loose polyfil, you can buy a huge bag at walmart for about $4. 2. Even though I just said to use polyfil, don't stuff your doors. Moisture is going to be a big problem if you do that. Seal them up like you said, and if you're really feeling froggy you could deaden them with dynamat or something equivalent. 



Jburd728 said:


> Quick question: is a system supposed to sound good without head unit EQ? if yes, is that the head unit's fault?


Yes and no. I don't use eq, *but*, I do have active crossovers in my hu which allows me to tailor the sound in a different way. However, Those lightning audio coax's in my work truck sound fantastic with everything flat except +2 on the treble.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Jburd728 said:


> Quick question: is a system supposed to sound good without head unit EQ? if yes, is that the head unit's fault?


My opinion is that L-R EQ is absolutely necessary in a good sounding system. You can shape your transfer function with active crossovers and these functions as a form of EQ in reality. But within the passband of a given driver you will need EQ to bring down peaks and balance out irregularities in FR caused by the environment, active crossovers doesn't do much good there. 

Imo, a parametric channel independent 31 band EQ is required to deal with all the shortcomings in such a bad environment as a car. But the 16 band GEQ in combination with active crossovers in the PRS80 will most likely yield a great improvement in tonality and staging. Prioritize equal transfer function each side over a 'flat' response if you care about staging. Frequencies above 1500Hz or so dictate how we perceive the "center" of the soundstage. Without an equal FR of each side you won't have a real "center" which cause the soundstage to "drift around" at different frequencies. The difference to have an equal FR each side and not having it is major imo. I even consider it to be more audible than the effect that T/A have on the soundstage in some cases. Fyi T/A affect lower frequencies, mainly below 800Hz it has the same effect otherwise, it's used to center the soundstage within these frequencies.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> My opinion is that L-R EQ is absolutely necessary in a good sounding system. You can shape your transfer function with active crossovers and these functions as a form of EQ in reality. But within the passband of a given driver you will need EQ to bring down peaks and balance out irregularities in FR caused by the environment, active crossovers doesn't do much good there.
> 
> Imo, a parametric channel independent 31 band EQ is required to deal with all the shortcomings in such a bad environment as a car. But the 16 band GEQ in combination with active crossovers in the PRS80 will most likely yield a great improvement in tonality and staging. Prioritize equal transfer function each side over a 'flat' response if you care about staging. Frequencies above 1500Hz or so dictate how we perceive the "center" of the soundstage. Without an equal FR of each side you won't have a real "center" which cause the soundstage to "drift around" at different frequencies. The difference to have an equal FR each side and not having it is major imo. I even consider it to be more audible than the effect that T/A have on the soundstage in some cases. Fyi T/A affect lower frequencies, mainly below 800Hz it has the same effect otherwise, it's used to center the soundstage within these frequencies.


Lol. Know your audience Hanatsu. No offense intended to the op btw.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Spyke said:


> Lol. Know your audience Hanatsu. No offense intended to the op btw.


Just speaking my mind, got a little carried away... xD

To OP. Spyke's method is completely viable. You can attain good results with the active crossovers set correctly without the need to EQ much (well with some reservations). But, you know I'm a perfectionist. Buying a $800 DSP don't bother me as long as I get my parametric EQ (and it does justify the additional cost in MY world) 

On a more serious note, if you decide to get a new HU. I strongly recommend the 80PRS, it's quite cheap actually. You get a really nice DSP for the money!


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> My opinion is that L-R EQ is absolutely necessary in a good sounding system. You can shape your transfer function with active crossovers and these functions as a form of EQ in reality. But within the passband of a given driver you will need EQ to bring down peaks and balance out irregularities in FR caused by the environment, active crossovers doesn't do much good there.
> 
> Imo, a parametric channel independent 31 band EQ is required to deal with all the shortcomings in such a bad environment as a car. But the 16 band GEQ in combination with active crossovers in the PRS80 will most likely yield a great improvement in tonality and staging. Prioritize equal transfer function each side over a 'flat' response if you care about staging. Frequencies above 1500Hz or so dictate how we perceive the "center" of the soundstage. Without an equal FR of each side you won't have a real "center" which cause the soundstage to "drift around" at different frequencies. The difference to have an equal FR each side and not having it is major imo. I even consider it to be more audible than the effect that T/A have on the soundstage in some cases. Fyi T/A affect lower frequencies, mainly below 800Hz it has the same effect otherwise, it's used to center the soundstage within these frequencies.


thanks! even though it traveled up, continued traveling for quite some time, then went directly OVER MY HEAD. I will be researching soon xD


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Spyke said:


> I wouldn't do this for 2 reasons. 1. I hate using fiberglass insulation as stuffing. Get some loose polyfil, you can buy a huge bag at walmart for about $4. 2. Even though I just said to use polyfil, don't stuff your doors. Moisture is going to be a big problem if you do that. Seal them up like you said, and if you're really feeling froggy you could deaden them with dynamat or something equivalent.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and no. I don't use eq, *but*, I do have active crossovers in my hu which allows me to tailor the sound in a different way. However, Those lightning audio coax's in my work truck sound fantastic with everything flat except +2 on the treble.


so no foam or anything in the door? Im real tight on money, what would be a cheap way to deaden the doors? and are those foam speaker baffles any good? 
DEI 050320 Boom Mat 5.25" Round Speaker Baffle - Pack of 2 : Amazon.com : Automotive


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

This is how I dampened the doors:










With open cell foam on top of the vibration-dampener. Note that OC foam does hold moisture. This was about three years ago, and I have no issues with it yet. To be safe closed cell foam might be a better idea. Back when I ran 2-way the open cell did help improve midrange quite much, clarity improved significantly in upper midrange, even did measure a difference in FR. 










I don't have any holes in my doors that needs to be sealed, so I don't need to worry about the backwave. But you can fiberglass a mold of the holes or just seal them with the vibration-dampener itself (dynamat and such).


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Jburd728 said:


> so no foam or anything in the door?


No.




Jburd728 said:


> Im real tight on money, what would be a cheap way to deaden the doors? and are those foam speaker baffles any good?
> DEI 050320 Boom Mat 5.25" Round Speaker Baffle - Pack of 2 : Amazon.com : Automotive


Definitely not. You think you have poor bass response now, just wait til you throw your speaker inside of one of these.

For damping try this:
Cascade V-MAXMP Aluminum Damping Sheets 2.8 sq. ft. 268-287
This is basically dynamat, easy to work with. You may need 1 kit per door though. Idk, you could maybe get by with 1 kit for both doors, It wouldn't be the most thorough job but it'll def help. 

Or this:
Cascade DK-1 Door Kit 268-204

This stuff works good but it's more difficult to work with especially in the cold.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Hanatsu said:


> This is how I dampened the doors:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see one big hole! (lol)

I'm thinking of making a pocket out of grill material or chicken wire right behind the speaker and fill it with Twaron's angel hair (exotic polyfill) to improve midrange. I've had open cell foam (egg crate foam) on the outside doorskin but in one door it simply got too wet and the glue let go. The other door still has it without problems.
Sort of like an AP enclosure exept not stuffing the damping material, just a loose fill. What do you think of that? The speaker would breathe trough the loosely filled damping material.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

ok thanks for the ideas. Im gonna use whatever 1/8" material I can find at my friends shop, bandsaw it to shape, and tape it over the holes. im gonna look for some foam as well to put in the doors. Ill post pics of the mounts in a bit as they probably are the biggest problem from what ive heard.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Get a roll of aluminum tape. It's great for tough areas and small holes.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Wesayso said:


> I see one big hole! (lol)
> 
> I'm thinking of making a pocket out of grill material or chicken wire right behind the speaker and fill it with Twaron's angel hair (exotic polyfill) to improve midrange. I've had open cell foam (egg crate foam) on the outside doorskin but in one door it simply got too wet and the glue let go. The other door still has it without problems.
> Sort of like an AP enclosure exept not stuffing the damping material, just a loose fill. What do you think of that? The speaker would breathe trough the loosely filled damping material.


Sounds doable 

You can expect improvement above 1000Hz or so if I have mention a number, I measured 2-3dB lower amplitude above 2kHz caused by resonance in my system  I might have those graphs somewhere...


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Spyke said:


> Get a roll of aluminum tape. It's great for tough areas and small holes.


Aight sounds good. And what parts should I use this on?


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> Sounds doable
> 
> You can expect improvement above 1000Hz or so if I have mention a number, I measured 2-3dB lower amplitude above 2kHz caused by resonance in my system  I might have those graphs somewhere...


what about in the lower FR? Like 250-500?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Jburd728 said:


> what about in the lower FR? Like 250-500?


Not much. It's about the absorption principle, you need a certain thickness of the absorption material for it to have any effect. The soundwaves bounce around inside the door causing it loose energy after each reflection. If a absorption material is present it will take away some of the energy each time. The lower the frequency the thicker absorption material you need. It's easy to absorb high frequencies but very hard to absorb low frequencies. Reflections lower in frequency can dealt with in other ways but they're not applicable here.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

okay so my speakers arent distorting at al it turns out there was a piece of metal behind the woofer in the tweeter that were rattling when they were playing. but I covered up the holes closestu to the speaker with my hands while the door panel was off and it sounds 10x better.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

idk how to put them on here but I just created a photobucket acc and heres the pics of my doors and the mounts I made. Any advice for cheap sealing those holes will be greatly appreciated and measly reps will be awarded!

2013-01-14154212_zps03c72985.jpg photo by jburd728 | Photobucket

edit: and this
http://s1286.beta.photobucket.com/u...3-01-14160015_zps8523e381.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

If you wanna "do it right" you can make fiberglass molds of the holes and glue them into place so they can be removed at a later time.

The hole right above the speaker is so small that can you seal with a sheet of vibration-dampener like 'dynamat' (dunno what brands you got in the US except that). The big one needs to be fiberglassed imo. It's not that hard to do actually. There must be small openings for the operation of the side window, those wires or what it is but it shouldn't be much of an issue.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/fabrication-tools-tricks-trade/93363-advice-sealing-doors.html

Check that thread out ^^


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

It seems like a nice flat surface, aluminum sheet could still be possible. Needs some deadening material though, for a flat piece that large like dynamat, Raammat, something like that.
I'd make a new baffle that covers that hole above the speaker.
Glad you're on your way to better sound!


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Hanatsu said:


> Not much. It's about the absorption principle, you need a certain thickness of the absorption material for it to have any effect. The soundwaves bounce around inside the door causing it loose energy after each reflection. If a absorption material is present it will take away some of the energy each time. The lower the frequency the thicker absorption material you need. It's easy to absorb high frequencies but very hard to absorb low frequencies. Reflections lower in frequency can dealt with in other ways but they're not applicable here.


That thickness issue is exactly why I thought my idea might work well. I can create a "bucket" like shape (covered with a nylon stocking) behind the woofer from chicken wire mesh and fill it with the loose damping material. That will be a bigger layer than I had with the open cell egg crate foam on the door skin (about 1 inch thick max).


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Wesayso said:


> It seems like a nice flat surface, aluminum sheet could still be possible. Needs some deadening material though, for a flat piece that large like dynamat, Raammat, something like that.
> I'd make a new baffle that covers that hole above the speaker.
> Glad you're on your way to better sound!


The mount has to be cut there, as it interferes with the door panel. the old mount is literally a small sheet of plastic. Ill just tape a thin piece of fiberboard above the mount. 

well, I bought some aluminum tape, but im guessing that's only good for the small screw sized holes and maybe above the mount? I could search around the house for some thin foam to put against the back of the door ATM. If I got some cheapo fatmat deadener from amazon, would that just go above and below the mount as well as directly behind the speaker in the door? would that be enough for an improvement in sound? Also, I found some old spray foam, is there any way that could be implemented?

but im literally broke at the moment, part time working full time college student here.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Jburd728 said:


> The mount has to be cut there, as it interferes with the door panel. the old mount is literally a small sheet of plastic. Ill just tape a thin piece of fiberboard above the mount.
> 
> well, I bought some aluminum tape, but im guessing that's only good for the small screw sized holes and maybe above the mount? I could search around the house for some thin foam to put against the back of the door ATM. If I got some cheapo fatmat deadener from amazon, would that just go above and below the mount as well as directly behind the speaker in the door? would that be enough for an improvement in sound? Also, I found some old spray foam, is there any way that could be implemented?
> 
> but im literally broke at the moment, part time working full time college student here.


Check out this: Installing a CLD Tile

Lots more info on this site to get you going. The idea is not to cover all of it but where it's most functional (like in the middle of a large flat panel).
Maybe you could cover the large hole with some MLV like material for cheap maybe a heavy doormat (thick heavy rubber). For the time beeing I'd concentrate on the holes near the baffle. The rest will be somewhat covered by the inner door card I hope? If there's room behind the door card around the speaker stuff it with open cell foam for the time beeing creating some form of seal to that big hole.

I've read about using spray foam to resolve rattles around here but I'm just not that brave...


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

One more thing, the deadener you have, is it the butyl or asphalt type?

I'd definitely go for butyl, save up if needed.

Another usefull link: http://sounddeadenershowdown.com/wp/treatments/vehicle-areas/doors/


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Wesayso said:


> One more thing, the deadener you have, is it the butyl or asphalt type?
> 
> I'd definitely go for butyl, save up if needed.


don't have any atm I think the fatmat is asphalt based. Yeah I heard its smelly. but I read that lowes has something quite similar called "peel and seal" that is very inexpensive that I might go for. ill post pics to keep you updated. Thank you so much!


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Jburd728 said:


> don't have any atm I think the fatmat is asphalt based. Yeah I heard its smelly. but I read that lowes has something quite similar called "peel and seal" that is very inexpensive that I might go for. ill post pics to keep you updated. Thank you so much!


Seriously, save up and invest in butyl deadener. Check out Raammat, or the stuff our host used to sell. Don't get that asphalt stuff. I bought my first set cheap as a demo package and it worked well. I don't think it's available in the US though: Silent Coat Starter Set Buy Online


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Wesayso said:


> That thickness issue is exactly why I thought my idea might work well. I can create a "bucket" like shape (covered with a nylon stocking) behind the woofer from chicken wire mesh and fill it with the loose damping material. That will be a bigger layer than I had with the open cell egg crate foam on the door skin (about 1 inch thick max).


Sounds like a good idea, you might get a more 'dry' sound in the midrange. Not good with audiophoolery terms 

If I'm lucky I might be able to listen to your car some time, I have a cousin down in Herne (outside Dortmund) I use to meet during the summer. Live far away from the border?


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Jburd728 said:


> Aight sounds good. And what parts should I use this on?


Your windshield.


Just anything on the door that needs sealing.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Spyke said:


> Your windshield.
> 
> 
> Just anything on the door that needs sealing.


Glue some open cell foam on the tires, gotta bring road noise down ^^


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Good thinking. I would also use expanding foam in any opening you can find. It'll keep the rattles down. 

And in case you can't tell, i'm kidding.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Spyke said:


> Good thinking. I would also use expanding foam in any opening you can find. It'll keep the rattles down.
> 
> And in case you can't tell, i'm kidding.


WHOA, couldn't tell xD


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> WHOA, couldn't tell xD


I wanted to make sure. I didn't want a pissed off post tomorrow saying that he blew all of his interior panels off.


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Ok dont kill me but i stuffed the door behind the speaker with polfyill just like you told me not to xD. it sounds like 100x better but its just temporary till i get my paws on some dynamat. This seriously filled in the midrange (full sounding guitar in rock, full sounding male voices), and helped to tighten up and push out some bass guitar notes that were lacking before. Im not hopeing to keep the polyfill in the door for very long, just until I can get some door kits from dynamat or something. But ill let you know how it holds up.
However, should I look into sealing or deadening the rear deck? Would this block out some of the sub coming from the trunk?


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> Glue some open cell foam on the tires, gotta bring road noise down ^^


^^ Made me :laugh: .


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Hanatsu said:


> Sounds like a good idea, you might get a more 'dry' sound in the midrange. Not good with audiophoolery terms
> 
> If I'm lucky I might be able to listen to your car some time, I have a cousin down in Herne (outside Dortmund) I use to meet during the summer. Live far away from the border?


Home of the TT in The Netherlands .
I noticed my bass got more dry after filling my sub box (with glassfibre Spyke ), less hollow. If I can get the same effect in the midrange it might be worth it. I'm hoping it will sound less like a car, more like a room.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Jburd728 said:


> Ok dont kill me but i stuffed the door behind the speaker with polfyill just like you told me not to xD. it sounds like 100x better but its just temporary till i get my paws on some dynamat. This seriously filled in the midrange (full sounding guitar in rock, full sounding male voices), and helped to tighten up and push out some bass guitar notes that were lacking before. Im not hopeing to keep the polyfill in the door for very long, just until I can get some door kits from dynamat or something. But ill let you know how it holds up.
> However, should I look into sealing or deadening the rear deck? Would this block out some of the sub coming from the trunk?


Good for you! Experimenting is fun! It sounds like you improved a lot in one day! Is it fun yet?


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Wesayso said:


> Good for you! Experimenting is fun! It sounds like you improved a lot in one day! Is it fun yet?


haha its always fun! frustrating at times of course, but definitely the one thing I love the most!
thanks so much for all the help guys I couldn't have done it otherwise!


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

Thanks!


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Do you have a smart phone? Iphone or Android? 
If yes, you could try to download an RTA application and show us your frequency response... 

Kelvin


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## Jburd728 (Aug 7, 2012)

subwoofery said:


> Do you have a smart phone? Iphone or Android?
> If yes, you could try to download an RTA application and show us your frequency response...
> 
> Kelvin


I have an android. what app should I download (for free obviously )

oh, and what should I play to measure it?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Jburd728 said:


> I have an android. what app should I download (for free obviously )
> 
> oh, and what should I play to measure it?


RTA Analyzer. Play pink noise.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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