# Mcintosh MX4000/MDA4000



## audiPG (May 29, 2011)

Hello all, I'm new to this forum and I would like to introduce myself here and ask a question at the same time.. 
I'm 28 years old living in Holland. I'm into the SQ of caraudio for about 2 years now and I have tried alot different amplifiers, cables, speakers, subwoofers..... and now I'm almost satisfied with my setup.

Just testing some headunits and hopefully I"m finished then.

Now I'm playing with a Alpine Iva D150r connected optically to an H701 processor.... Nice but can be better.
So I have bought a Mcintosh MX4000, MPM 4000 and the MDA4000 combo and a Sony Xes P1 combo to test.

I would like to try out the Mcintosh, but what do you guys suggest doing??

Going all the way passive or stay active. And what kind of processor would you suggest using with the Mcintosh?

Thanks alot for the help.

My Setup:

Headunit : Mcintosh Mx4000/MDA4000..................Sony Xes......................Alpine h701
Midwoofer: Scanspeak Revelator 18w
Tweeters: Scanspeak
Subwoofer : DD1508
Subwoofers: Peerless SLS213
Amplifier compo: Butler Audio TDB575
Amplifier subwoofer : Butler Audio TDB 275
Amplifier subwoofers : Butler/Phaze 750
Powerstation: Helix XXL
2nd powersupply : Northstar 100aH


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## Lars Ulriched (Oct 31, 2009)

subscribed..


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

I recommend to stay active. If you want you can use more powerful processor like Alpine PXA H900 combine with McIntosh Combo or just stick with H701. One of my friends use similar setup like yours. 

Best regard

Wendo


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## RattyMcClelland (Nov 28, 2008)

With that Mcintosh id stay away from digital processing. Get an analogue processor.


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

RattyMcClelland said:


> With that Mcintosh id stay away from digital processing. Get an analogue processor.


Like what? Audio control, Rane etc, Please give an example Bro


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## RattyMcClelland (Nov 28, 2008)

Audio Control & Rane 

Arc DXE Processor is what i use with my MX406. Also tried the Audiocontrol 4xs/EQT Combo. Also sound excellent.


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

RattyMcClelland said:


> Audio Control & Rane
> 
> Arc DXE Processor is what i use with my MX406. Also tried the Audiocontrol 4xs/EQT Combo. Also sound excellent.


I have MX 406s and using heavily modified custom processor full active. So far so good to my ears,my friend think I have some analog passive and analog processor in my car. 

But actually I calibrate and set up the dsp to sound similar of using audio control processor 

Best regards

Wendo


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

I had the same combo, I tested it with a high end home system and found that it had some strengths over the McIntosh MX-406 ( I think the head units are Clarion derived with the amps being McIntosh derived) and also some weaker points. In the end I returned it and got a Nakamichi Special Shop TP-1200 with remote pre-amp and upgraded electronics. I am extremely happy with this head unit and also tested it in a home high end system and it was not out of place in SQ in the home system. I use the Apogee Mini DAC running 2 volts out for best signal to noise, attenuating with the fixed resistor network in the Nakamichi.

I am trying to decide on a source for my GFs car and though we really love the look of the McIntosh pieces and imagine putting the MPM-4000 with a McIntosh head unit that has an aux input. It is a lot to pay for a fader and a rotary volume control...

So we are leaning to use an apogee duet 2 which has 2 inputs and 4 outputs ( not sure if it has a master volume control though for 4 channel) a great s/n particularly if you do not use it's attenuators and use a high quality pre-amp instead...see the review below to see how the signal to noise a weighted tests suffer at lower volumes.


See this great review here. I do think we will see many cars use these in the future with high quality attenuation. I use an apogee mini DAC in my car. Similar deal.. Staging might be better with Duet 2 but I have not A/B'ed them yet. I should have one tested in 3 weeks .

Apogee Duet 2 Review


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## audiPG (May 29, 2011)

Small kick on this thread. 
At this time I updated my whole install.

now I have :

Mcintosh Mx4000
Mcintosh Mda4000
Mcintosh Mc4000m
Mcintosh Mec 457
Mcintosh Meq
Mcintosh MPM4000
Mcintosh Mss530
Mcintosh Ms469 

I would like to complete this install with a Mcintosh MEN456 !!!??? Is there someone who has it and wants to sell it??


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

audiPG said:


> Small kick on this thread.
> At this time I updated my whole install.
> 
> now I have :
> ...



In regards to active and passive. I have a very satisfying passive system in my car, but is am going to try active. I run Scan Speak 12m as my mids and just have them transport me to the original music event. I was using scan tweeters, but then switched to an lesser known brand I like more. 

I like the Mc Eq modules, I find the sound to be very analog sounding and not processed. It envelops you in a smooth believable...near ethereal sound stage of wide proportion with IMHO fantastic dynamics...and you rarely get both of those out of the same system.

What Audi do you have?

Mine is in 1994 E500 Mercedes. The main issue I have now is that the sound is so much better without speaker grills...so I am trying to modify my grills to as them more acoustically transparent.

As for electronic crossing over..

The MEN 456 I have one and love it. I just have not implemented it in my car yet.

I also have a second one which I am trying to figure out how to run one for each channel I have an extra 4 channel 6 band Eq module.

Ok... Update. Tried the Duet 2 . Not as good as the Apogee mini DAC using firewire and pure music from a MacBook Pro controlled by an iPad running into my Nakamichi..the Apogee Mini DAC runs off 12 volt....like a champ. I currently have a Wadia 121 in transit to me. This will be a pain in the butt to convert as the power supply is a high speed switching power supply running 3 voltages....ughhh. Even this old Apogee Mini DAC will sound far better than the MC DAC.... Just don't shoot the messenger.

My holland friend... My family was Dutch Indonesian and lived in The Hague during WW2. Now everyone speaks English in this generation.

Buy this.


Metrum octave . It's made in the Netherlands. LOCAL FOR YOU. When you hear it, and want to thank me, we will arrange a way for me to buy one through you. I want to try and fit a Metrum Hex in my car. 

I heard the MSB Analog DAC and was throughly impressed ..and the Platinum IV is even better from MSB and that is what the Metrum Octave was favorably compared against. To even have anything remotely in any of the MSB league that could be installed in a car...well it's just amazing.

It can run off 15volts. The Metrum hex is a 115volt unit.

Forget the McIntosh DAC.... it looks amazing, but the SQ was IMHO not amazing in the 1990's and will be far outclassed even by an inexpensive Schitt bifrost.

And you know I love McIntosh... but seriously ...no one talks about McIntosh Dacs as serious high end gear, McIntosh makes a laudable desktop system the MXA-60 ..echo has a nice little tube preamp and a decent sounding internal DAC for what it is....mostly because it was voiced as system..and who ever dialed it in must have a good ear. 


I missed out buying a Metrum Octave used..and I could have just smacked myself with a cold fish. Dumb dumb dumb. 

Go find a high end dealer ...listen to the Metrum, and post your thoughts.


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## audiPG (May 29, 2011)

Ok thanks, but I cannot connect all my speaker amps to this thing. It's just an dac.
I need a crossover for my system.
Currently I'm using a audiocontrol 4xs, but I would love to replace it for a Mcintosh men456.

Would you like to sell yours?

Maybe I can you the Metrum stuff in my Home audio setup, there I have :

Mcintosh Mx119
Mcintosh Mc7205
Lowther dx3 drivers

I would like to ad a Oppo BDP103 or 105 .... or maybe you have a better solution.? ( it seems to me that you have alot of knowledge about highend gear )


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

audiPG said:


> Ok thanks, but I cannot connect all my speaker amps to this thing. It's just an dac.
> I need a crossover for my system.
> Currently I'm using a audiocontrol 4xs, but I would love to replace it for a Mcintosh men456.
> 
> ...



If SQ is what you are after.... And you like your passive sound now...logically you simplest best upgrade is your source files and DAC.

RUN 24/96 files with a good DAC. I don't care how good your electronic crossover is. If you already have good response with your passive set up without any major dips or peaks.... You will immediately reap rewards with a higher resolution source. Your scan drivers are up to the task if properly aimed and crossed.


If what you have now is isn't optimized...then dial it in better. An active system adds complexity and won't give you better sound if not tuned properly.


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## audiPG (May 29, 2011)

Golden Ears said:


> If SQ is what you are after.... And you like your passive sound now...logically you simplest best upgrade is your source files and DAC.
> 
> RUN 24/96 files with a good DAC. I don't care how good your electronic crossover is. If you already have good response with your passive set up without any major dips or peaks.... You will immediately reap rewards with a higher resolution source. Your scan drivers are up to the task if properly aimed and crossed.
> 
> ...


Ok, but how to connect the metrum to the mx4000 headunit?
And it runs on 15volt, my car is on 13.8volt on idle.....so how does that work out?


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

audiPG said:


> Ok, but how to connect the metrum to the mx4000 headunit?
> And it runs on 15volt, my car is on 13.8volt on idle.....so how does that work out?


Your Mx 4000 is essentially a combination tuner, preamp, cd transport. I do not know which pins array your digital signal but any good bench tech could identify them in under 5 minutes. You wild have a plug made. My guess is that they are probably S/Pdif coaxial in that plug.

You could go into the SP/dif of the Metrum from there, and use the optical port with a MacBook Pro or Apple Mac mini. The octave will do up to 24/96 files, there is a new Metrum Octave MKII that came out this week.... But it only has an IEC plug for the mains so it is likely 115/220 volts. 

I do not recall if your Mx 4000 has an aux in..I think it does...so you can feed your Mac mini digital files in through the Metrum into there. You would only use the Mx 4000 to play 16/44.1 red book CD ...which is useful since the new Mac mini does not come with a OPTICAL disc. You can get the server version of the Mac mini with gives you 2TB of music storage. You have the further benefit of running pure music from channld.com which automatically switches sample rates for you...so you can run apple genius mixes and not have to fumble for the next song in the car.

Speaker kits, loudspeaker design services, sub-woofers and amplifiers. makes 12 volt power for the Apple Mac Mini.

The Apogee mini DAC works with any voltage from 6-14 volts direct into the input...the outboard power supply handles anything from 90-240 volts. 

I do not know if METRUM requires a tightly regulated 15 volt input or if it too can work within a range. My Dutch is non existent in terms of my writing, but asking Metrum in Dutch will likely get a quick response.... I want to know also.

Metrum is not answering my questions in English as of yet.


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

*DACs that work with iPad.*

List of DACs that work with iPad


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## audiPG (May 29, 2011)

Interesting, I will look into this for sure.

Are you willing to sell one of your mcintosh men units, so I can complete my collection of mcintosh gear?


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

McIntosh Labs & Mac iPad - YouTube

iPad ap makes a nice skin...also easy to use when driving as compared to iTunes.


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

If, when I compare my SQ PASSIVE to SQ ACTIVE, if I hear no improvement in SQ at reasonable SPL... I would sell my MEN456.


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## audiPG (May 29, 2011)

I know this app. But I don't have an Ipad. nor I have a Macbook pro.
I do have some andriod stuff, but Mcintosh doesn't have a app for it.

You want to sell the men units, since you have two pcs. laying around?


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

Solar iPad Case with HDMI & More .: Kudo Official Site

This case gives long battery life for ipad use in the car. I doubt you would drive 15 hours. It also looks nice with stitching that matches my car interior.


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

I have

Mc4000m
Mc440m
Mc431m
Mc431m
Mcc82
Men456
Meq456
Mpm4000 meters


If I run all passive I will just use my mc4000m and mc431m x 2. And 1 EQ MODULE.

Still that any only be the best option for my Mercedes w124 chassis E500.

I plan to get a Tesla and that might need the men456

But.... Call me +1disco- draft. And maybe we can agree on a price.


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

Hi Golden Ears and Audipg it seems you guys really like McIntosh system....I do have Wadia DAC connected to an iPad straight to aux in McIntosh MX5000.....so far so good....very smooth and high resolution sound IMHO.


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

I am going to compare the Wadia 121 to the Apogee mini DAC and The Metrum Octave, possibly the Metrum HEX.

Tell me what you gained in SQ, what is the car and the system ?


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

asawendo said:


> Hi Golden Ears and Audipg it seems you guys really like McIntosh system....I do have Wadia DAC connected to an iPad straight to aux in McIntosh MX5000.....so far so good....very smooth and high resolution sound IMHO.


To get the Wadia to be quiet without grounding hum, which model was it and did you use iron chokes.

What was your method? As all Wadia DAC seem to be 110/230vt...except perhaps for older 1xx series with wall warts.


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

Golden Ears said:


> I am going to compare the Wadia 121 to the Apogee mini DAC and The Metrum Octave, possibly the Metrum HEX.
> 
> Tell me what you gained in SQ, what is the car and the system ?


I have more of smooth silky sound and higher resolution from heavily custom Wadia 2000 DAC


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

Golden Ears said:


> To get the Wadia to be quiet without grounding hum, which model was it and did you use iron chokes.
> 
> What was your method? As all Wadia DAC seem to be 110/230vt...except perhaps for older 1xx series with wall warts.


Seriously IMHO it is better than McIntosh own MDA5000 DAC, by the way I'm using Hashimoto electronic power inverter for that purpose.


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

asawendo said:


> I have more of smooth silky sound and higher resolution from heavily custom Wadia 2000 DAC[/QUOTE=[]\;
> '/
> 
> I am burning in the Wadia 121 now. It sounds pretty amazing with pure music.
> ...


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

asawendo said:


> Seriously IMHO it is better than McIntosh own MDA5000 DAC, by the way I'm using Hashimoto electronic power inverter for that purpose.


I never understood the McIntosh DACs.. or their pre-amps... I could not beleive how disappointed I was when I used their Car DAC and head unit in a high end home system... I really was perplexed that I could not coax good sound out of it.

It isn't an issue to beat a McIntosh DAC, I think most well selected outboard DACs you can buy for over $350 - $1300 beat their best offerings. I am in total agreement with you. To use the McIntosh DAC really limits the sound quality of the Mcintosh components further down the chain. There are jitter issues without full control of the transport...or rye locking to a master clock. The McIntosh head unit seems to suffer from jitter, and though the analog stage in the Mx 4000 was much better than the Mx406 , it is possible that the Mx406 might have had better jitter because of the clocking issues of a separate box and not being asynchronous DACs or re clocked.

Many people dismiss McIntosh as lesser quality sonically in terms of dollar value...when all they have to do is just remove the McIntosh pre-amp and DAC and substitute a higher quality source but keep the Mc EQ and amps.

It's hard to do.... because the McIntosh stuff looks soooooo classic...its just soo exclusive..and I hated having to pull my MX-406 and pay a couple grand more for the the MX4000....which I returned after 3 weeks. and decided to go with other DAC options .but...well... SQ is what matters most. The thought of keeping the head unit has crossed my mind....but it would have been a very expensive volume control and pre-amp.

I bought my first Wadia 860 too put in the car, but it sounded so good in my home rig I kept it there.

So I decided...if so..why not buy the best Pre-amp and volume control...and that is why I settled on the Nakamichi TP-1200 Special Shop edition with remote pre-amp. I could have just as well...skipped it and gone for the Wadia and run the amps directly with it.

But I like having a few sources.... (ipad- Apple TV- (wadia + Maci Mini running Pure music) - DJ Mixer and the SQ has not seemed to suffer even the tiniest bit.

Is the Hasimoto inverter a pure sine wave inverter?

Do you have a link?

How did you ground your Wadia? or is it grounded only to the Hashimoto.

Any hum at all?


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

The Hasimoto inverter only sold in Japan and I believe its pure sine wave and very high quality build (fyi the price is USD1500 when I bought it in 1995) no hum at all my friend. I think it because they have isolated ground power supply. The output is always stable at 110v sometimes 111-112v. They are famous as OEM toroidal for several highend manufacturer such as Krell, Threshold etc.

By the way I'm using my MX5000 only as gorgeous CD transport


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

@Golden Ears Your recommendation about Wadia 121 is very interesting....also your brief and detailed explanation about it.

@audipg please try outboard DAC for your MX4000 you will be surprised for the improvement in sound quality.


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

asawendo said:


> The Hasimoto inverter only sold in Japan and I believe its pure sine wave and very high quality build (fyi the price is USD1500 when I bought it in 1995) no hum at all my friend. I think it because they have isolated ground power supply. The output is always stable at 110v sometimes 111-112v. They are famous as OEM toroidal for several highend manufacturer such as Krell, Threshold etc.
> 
> By the way I'm using my MX5000 only as gorgeous CD transport .


Now that is what I am talking about! Gorgeous... and of course.. chicks should dig it....if they ever knew what it was. She is a beauty....timeless classic...talking about the McIntosh of course!

The Nakamichi TP Special Shop illumination is a close match for my car.

I am controlling my Mac Mini with my Ipad - and for fun...I want to run the McIntosh API ap...so it looks like I have meters.

I do have the MPM4000 meters...still not sure where to put them as my Dash in my w124 E500 Mercedes is single DIN. I have considered getting the taxi console for my car...har to find... it sorta gives me another DIN space but not quite. I want to Mount the MPM 4000 low- like where the ash tray is...so I could still see the meters if the Ipad is up covering the Climate controls. Then I get the meters from the iPad as well as the real meters...


BTW...since you seem like the industrious type.... I always wanted to take a selector switch (rotary style) off an old pre-amp and use its stereo double ganged contacts to wire in my speaker wire so I could select which drivers/amp channels are being displayed..

Anyone done this? Do you think this would introduce cross talk?

$1500...wow.....another frustrating expense.


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

Nakamichi TP1200 Special Shop is one of highest end preamp ever produced in car audio, Mr Niro Nakamichi was the man behind that design team. It is equipped with quality parts all over the board.

For the purpose of selector there are several aftermaket products, I use monster cable ss6 speaker selector so far so good


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

Niro (designed by Niro Nakamichi) makes very good sound bars for TV. 

I always have had high reqard for Nakamichi's flagship products which probably never made huge money (Nakamichi TD-1200MKII based on the Nakamichi Dragon, Nakamichi TP-1200 SS, Nakamichi Music bank 1000) since they ...because of high price, and low numbers. But the technology certainly dribbled down to help the line.

I like Nakamichi's more so for their line level products, not as much for speaker level and crossovers, so the marriage of McIntosh and Nakamichi for car seemed a good idea.

McIntosh had undergone so much ownership change, Clarion, ...but currently *Fine Sounds* a Italian based company which has also bought Audio Research, Sonus Farber as well as Wadia owns them....but the true money that bought them I am told is from China....(I have not verified this Chinese ownership)

So a Wadia, McIntosh, Scan Speak (Drivers in many Sonus Farber appear be sourced Scan drivers) could be a example of a Fine Sounds car...

I like this combination.....somewhere- there is a guy in China who has very similar audio tastes to mine.

There is a rumor, that McIntosh will discontinue making car audio gear this year...I hope this never comes to pass.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-hCTgJ1j6KFV/p_543PRO6HP/Russound-PRO-6HP.htm

This is a speaker selector box I have.. similar to yours correct? I was hoping to use the ganged slector to save weight and space. But if the speaker selector box is hte only way to go... it certainly simplifies the wiring if I just leave it in the trunk and select from there- but I do not think I could fit it up front. I thought the MPM4000 did not measure voltage...and so does not need thick speaker wire. Is this true? If so could I go as thin as using some computer ribbon wire??

Here is a fun fact. Steve Jobs of Apple originally paid McIntosh a royalty to use the name MacIntosh.

And to the Original poster, I had a Butler hybrid tube amp with the thermionic tubes... It was a 5150 home amp- that used a shared power supply so if run only in stereo it could put out nearly 250 wpc. Very good sound...I prefer the Butler Home amps over the McIntosh Solid State home amps. So I probably wouldn't bother to change your Butler Amps...they might be better. Milbert also makes car tube amps. 

I might want to run my Mids and tweeters with Milberts some day if I go all electronic crossovers.


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

Wow some of the gear aforementioned above were highend at heart...

The Nakamichi Dragon is one of my favourite audio. I considered as an art.

Regarding MPM 4000 if you connet it to McIntosh power amp with power guard equipped such as MCC602TM will behave as accurate power measurement meter. It doesn't need heavy wire to do that, so I can safely said it can be done with computer ribbon wire. 

Milbert made such decent vaccum tube amp, their legendary model is BAM-235. I'm using their crossover preamp TC2R. Butler made hybrid vaccum tube amp. I used to have Butler 2150 before I sold them to my very best friend.

Best Regards

Wendo


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

This is MX5000 and Milbert TC2R


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

What's. nice way to get tube fullness into a system without having to run a tube head unit or tube amplifiers.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

asawendo said:


> This is MX5000 and Milbert TC2R


What's that's a sexy picture right there!!


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## audiPG (May 29, 2011)

If I use another dac on my mx4000...how do I use the volumeknob on the mx4000?
Is that still possible? Because I read that I would need a Mcintosh Dac in order to use the mcintoshvolumeknob.

"Golden ears" Is there much differents between de Mcintosh Mx4000 and the Nakamichi tp-1200?


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## audiPG (May 29, 2011)

kick


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

So... A long time ago, I tested the Mx 4000 in my reference system. Now, of course if your output impedance of the head unit is not low enough or your input impedance on your amp is not high enough you can hear a loss of bass.

I can assure you this was not the case.

The McIntosh head unit playing through an easy to drive Apt Holman preamp feeding some Bryston 4b amps into some Infinity Referenence standard RS1's failed to impress. It just sounded IMHO like an average Japanese integrated amps preamp section made by Mitsubishi or Sony....not even like a preamp separate.

I hope this does not offend anyone, and it is just my opinion from a single test. I used quality interconnect too, 1 meter length. Please do not take this as gospel truth.

I always test car Audio gear in high resolution home systems.

Ok... Now I did a similar test, albeit with lesser resolution gear in a room with much worse acoustics.

I took the Nakamichi TP-1200 special shop remote preamp ( this has upgraded surface mount components- and tone controls are completely deleted from the head unit)....

System I put it in was a worse amp (Mcintosh MC440M car amp 100wpc) running less resolving home loudspeakers ( but still quite excellent sounding for mini monitors ProAc Response 1SC ) same loudspeaker cable.


In comparison the Nakamichi had extended highs with clarity, sounded at least in the same league if not better than the Apt Homan Preamp with solid bass, clear delineated lower bass string notes in jazz passages, excellent vocal renditions for female vocals, and really amazing sound staging...which I had never heard previously in any car system. I have heard sound staging in cars but it always sounded processed. Even in cars before our current processing like "little yellow" a famous Honda Civic by notorious installer Rich Inferrea (who helped put separates in cars with a/d/s of Willmington Massachusetts). 

The Nakamichi TP-1200SS was so good, that I even used it as a preamp in my home system for a year while I sold my Apt Holman to upgrade and was waiting on the replacement .

I however never heard the REGULAR Nakamichi TP-1200, other Nakamichi's I liked was the TD-1200 (a high end tape deck with a dragoon transport with the separate speed capstans Etc.. and separate power supply and amp chassis)I never heard the Nakamichi CD-700II , but many other Nakamichi head units, while quite good did not sound like a high end home component IMHO they sounded Mid-fi.....like the in dash 6disc changer a from Nakamichi.

Here is an easy experiment for you....

Buy a used Apogee mini DAC with FireWire. About 600usd.. It runs on 6-14 volts. get some balanced XLR to RCA adapters (they do it need to be top quality for the test....if you decided to keep it I can sell you some high quality cryroed Cardas XLR/RCA adapters) if you do this you increase the output of the "head unit" to 4 volts as I think the Stereo min unbalanced output is only 2volts.

Swap this "digital preamp DAC" Apogee for your head unit . Turn the volume up to 2 o'clock...you should have lots of headroom left. Feed the Apogee from a apple laptop from FireWire. If you like add pure music (a fee trial download from channld.com)....or. if you had a Nakamichi changer with digital out (I have several) you can fed it digital signal.

The Apogee has an adaptive DAC with a looser DAC Input OF DIGITAL SIGNAL that accepts some jitter signal, and then it feeds it through a better stage with far less jitter.

If you try a high Rez 24/96. File like Beatles Love, The Doors LA woman, Patricia Barber Modern Cool (even just redbook is ok) , you quite possibly will never want to put your McIntosh head unit back in.

It is not that your McIntosh is a BAD head unit, in fact compared to other head units it is quite good, some would say one of the best, but compared to a high quality outboard DAC PRE...it just gets crushed like so may other head units.

Not really a surprise.....a well known USA competitor Todd Eldridge modified his Japanese Alpine head unit with better electronics.... He recognized the short comings of car head units. He was winning nearly everything for quite some time.

Sometimes...cramming so many electronics in a small space of head unit causes EMF and inductance issues..also doesn't allow for much physical isolation of the power supply and digital and analog components. Like if your capacitors have steel end caps instead of copper...you get a lot of potential noise generated .

Anyhow, you might even be able to borrow an Apogee Mini DAC from a Studio or anyone who does location recording and monitoring at no cost no risk...

Even If you bought the Apogee mini DAC you could just run it...or sell it for what you paid and buy something even better. 

The Wadia 121...I finally got it....just blows away the Apogee Mini DAC....like triple the detail...amazing.. I am going to sell it thought to try and put a modified Metrum Hex $2700 or possibly a Stahl -Tek ($7000) YIKES! into the car.

I am not sure I will be able to hear the improvement in the car environment since the Wadia is already so good...but you do not know until you try.


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## audiPG (May 29, 2011)

Ok I understand, but what do you use as a source unit?
You can't just put a laptop on top of your dashboard or otherwise need to rebuild the whole dash to put in a apple ipad....


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

audiPG said:


> Ok I understand, but what do you use as a source unit?
> You can't just put a laptop on top of your dashboard or otherwise need to rebuild the whole dash to put in a apple ipad....


If you just limit yourself to 16/44.1 .......use an I streamer...for an all in one solution.

Or

You could stream from an or ipod touch, ipad, any IOS Device or iPhone to an airport express- go optical SP/dif out to a toslink cable (wireworld supernova 6 s a good reasonable glass fiber optical cable with a toslink on one end and a mini jack size toslink on the her) Use a mifi router to have them both on the same network.

You can use voice commands to select playlists , artists songs etc.



Hi rez? You need a laptop ( buy a henge dock docking station...or the thunderbolt dock...ONE CABLE CONNECTED AND DONE!.........or....
You can also use a audio engine D2 (usb/toslink inouts)wireless link that will stream 24/96 files AND runs off of 5 volts....or a USB the money you would have spent on interconnect can go towards this. You can also stream to up to 3 receivers simultaneously to run up to 3 amps.

Too much hassle? You can use the D1 instead...not as good though. 

Use the empty DIN. Space to put in McIntosh MPM4000 meters.

Want cost effective + convenient? Get the audio engine D2 use a laptop and put the laptop and phone on the same wi-fi network. If you need iphne NAV- you'll need a BLUEtooth GPS receiver...since you won't be using 4g on your iPhone as a network..

HATE THE laptop?

Use your iPhone and a device to get a the digital optical out to the D2. 

Me current set up will be...

All devices on 4 g router Verizon MIFI network.
iPad controls laptop USB feeds Wadia 121 feeds Nak TP-1200ss feeds my amps.


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## audiPG (May 29, 2011)

So for instance, put in the audioengine d1 in a single din slot in the dash. Then connect an ipod to the D1 and from the D1 to the amp in the trunk?

Then I can use the volume control on the D1, right?

The most nicest option for me, would be an ipad mini in the dash then connect it somehow to a DAC 24/192khz and then to my amps in the trunk, is that possible?


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

audiPG said:


> So for instance, put in the audioengine d1 in a single din slot in the dash. Then connect an ipod to the D1 and from the D1 to the amp in the trunk?
> 
> Then I can use the volume control on the D1, right?
> 
> The most nicest option for me, would be an ipad mini in the dash then connect it somehow to a DAC 24/192khz and then to my amps in the trunk, is that possible?


Well the D2 has the volume control... (d1 dose not) and the D2 is not IOS compliant..so you need to feed it a SP/dif signal or USB from a computer.

On headfi there is a list of what DACs work with iPad. But they may not be officially licensed.

So if you are not using a computer you might just want to go with one of thrones below.


The official licensed DACs that also work as a pre-amp with volume control for IOS devices are...

I order of likely SQ Best is first:

1. CEntrance Hi-Fi M8 (has tone controls as well as different output voltages and impedance matching) also has two stereo outs unbalanced in multi jack configuration (has balanced out too). Must be ordered with IOS DAC INOUT INOUT AND USB- great headohone amp...has built in rechargeable battery too. If you pre-order it soon before it is released you can save hundreds.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/622939/the-centrance-hifi-m8-thread

WARNING a long tedious painful read....worse even than my posts.

2. ALO the international. IOS DAC And pre-amp headphone amp. Ken the owner is a great - tops in customer service.

http://www.touchmyapps.com/2013/02/25/alo-audios-the-international-headphone-ampusb-dac-in-review/

3 Apogee Duet 2 and Apogee Quartet ....ALERT ! Make sure you get the newest IOS compliant version. Older versions will not work with IOS dvices directly. Quartet can allow you to do surround sound as it can handle 6 sources, but it is a bit tricky to set up. You also get a AD converter so you can rip vinyl to digital and mic preamps for recording.

http://www.apogeedigital.com/

Do take a look at all your inputs and outputs as some may be well located for you.....or not..
For instance apogee duet 2 would be great integrated into a center console...


CEntrance has all outputs on the front with the volume control...

ALO might be most compact and neatest install...

Yes these are small devices...but since the first two have built in batteries...the power supply is simplified. They just sound better . 

The CEntrance hi-fi M8 is supposed to sound almost like a CEntrance DAC Mini which is better than an apogee mini DAC which is better than both apogee duet and quartet as it uses better dac converters. Headphone addict from headfi. A big reviewer used to use the apogee mini DAC with upgraded power supply now he switched to the CEntrance and says that 24/48 files sound so good out of it he does not hear an improvement th 24/96 ( keep in mind rebook CD is 16 bit not 24 but, and that thermal noise in the digital circuit is so high we can to hear anything better than 20 bit anyhow. What. Higher bit rates allow for are shallower slope digital filters which are less deleterious on the sound.)



YMMV
.


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## audiPG (May 29, 2011)

Golden Ears said:


> Well the D2 has the volume control... (d1 dose not) and the D2 is not IOS compliant..so you need to feed it a SP/dif signal or USB from a computer.
> 
> On headfi there is a list of what DACs work with iPad. But they may not be officially licensed.
> 
> ...



WOW goldenears, you really openend my eyes, I would like that apogee duet 2.... It's absolutely beautifull and 24/192.
Can you help me how to connect all this.


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

I just updated my previous post... Sure glad to help


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

The apple stores carry the apogee duet...you might have one near you. In the USA they offer a 14 day return period with no restocking fee. Hopefully in the Netherlands they have a similar policy.

Ideal....almost as good as "try before you buy".


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## audiPG (May 29, 2011)

Golden Ears said:


> The apple stores carry the apogee duet...you might have one near you. In the USA they offer a 14 day return period with no restocking fee. Hopefully in the Netherlands they have a similar policy.
> 
> Ideal....almost as good as "try before you buy".


I've sended you an email.


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

Update.

well.... 

The Apogee Mini DAC... still a great DAC.. is no match for a WADIA 121.

I had the Lynx Studios Hilo, fantastic High frequency sound stage (endless configurations..you might be able to do 5.1 too)...but not as good Male vocals as the Apogee or Wadia..arrrghhh..Deal breaker.

I heard the Metrum HEX...good, but not amazing.

.....recently May 31- June 2 , 2013 I exhibited at T.H.E. Show Newport Beach 
with Chapman. 

I managed to borrow a $7000 MSB Analog DAC, this is in league with the Stahl-Tek Vekian I liked ($20,000). This has an incredible RELAXING sound, that somehow removes the "anxious attack" of digital....and that "grainy chopped discontinuity..." heard in vocals and sustained notes that you hear in digital. The MSB puts you at ease like a good LP vinyl record (have to use all three terms for those not young enough to recognize the solo term LP (LP="long playing"...now...so outdated compared to an endless digital play list). MSB is still not as nice as 12" 45rpm or 7.5" or faster master tape....even if the reviewer said so....

MSB Technology The Analog DAC | AudioStream



But hey...its a long way there.----

Sadly.... dual 24 volt + 12 volt power supplies -highly regulated -complicate ...at least for now, using the MSB in my car....too bad..such a cool piece milled out of a solid slab of Aluminum . I may have to use a pure sine wave inverter to pull it off. Also static electricity can lock up the MSB...so I will need a Uninterruptible power supply to protect it from voltage swings.

I probably will sell both my Wadia 121 and Wadia 860x with GNS statement level upgrade to buy this.


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

Update:

In case anyone actually cares about Hi-rez in the car. I'll write a bit more about my findings. Don't expect a neat review- It was a long day and I feel VERY VERY few people actually read this... If you are someone that appreciates what I write- let me know in this thread. I'll take the time to clean up and organize future comments on this long arduous journey. It's 1am.

So I sold the Wadia 121. The SABRE chip wore on me - and in the end I preferred a much less expensive Meridian Explorer- which really wasn't quite the answer either as it did not go depth and detail so well- but fared much better on vocals than the Wadia 121. The Wadia 121 would prove to be a major hassle in several ways. In the actual install in my car- the Apogee Mini DAC sounded better...outside of the car the Wadia was better in some ways......but long term wore on me.

Also ....When power is cut to the Wadia 121- all its settings for output level and source go to factory defaults (So every time you turn off the car... you have to reset it all. ..PITA. (it sounds best through its 4volt output - but does not default to this) It also mutes... And if you want to make a power supply for it.. you need (4) power supplies -% volts + 5 Volts +12 volts -12volts.... forget it! And it sounds much better warmed up- and the time ti takes to warm up...well you'd be there by then.

In comparison- set the Apogee Mini DAC and when it sees voltage again it springs into life and automatically searches inputs endlessly until it locks on. 

The Chordette Qute- needs a great power supply and I was not so taken with the sound. The new Hugo (heard it today- and BTW it did not work with IOS 6- for those with eyes that need IOS 6 easier to read fonts...Hugo needs IOS 7 ANNNND.... it needs the Camera Connection kit to run off your IOS device - so add that cost on top) is good- but very expensive listing at $2400 which puts in in the same territory as the Astell and Kern 240. I heard both today- under subpar conditions at the SoCal Headfi meet. I only had my "sport headphones" which are Ultrasone Edition 9 with APS recable - which need a TTVJ Millett Tube amp to sound right...and did not have the right cabling to go between the TTVJ tube amp and the source- some garbage cable which - frankly killed SQ and made it all some opaque mud- hard to listen through. But I used some Audeze headphones and Sennheiser HD 800's (with stock cables) as a test. The Chordette also is not a officially IOS device certified which means it may require driver installation into a host computer. The Hugo seems to work fine without drivers.

I'm left hearing good detail through both the Hugo and Ak 240- giving the edge in detail perhaps to the AK 240. HF in the AK 240 was excellent - Gold Dust by Fleetwood Mac- Rumors has good attack, and Babylon Sisters from Gaucho has just the right sparkle- though I felt voices could use more presence on both the Hugo and AK 240. Again- show conditions- pressed for time- so YMMV. 

I still might prefer my older iMod 5.5 gen 80GB with ALO cryro dock + TTVJ MILLETT tube portable amp to both of these units. The AK 240 would be very hard for me to use on the snowy slopes - a Ipod is hard enough to use... so that isn't going to be on my XMAS list. Also AK 240 Max output was 2.5 volts using balanced and slightly less for unbalanced. So it would have to run into a my Nakamichi TP-1200II pre-amp but might preclude it from use in other cars. I would also have to run analog from the front to the rear of the car- which is less than desirable for picking up noise. The Nakamichi TP-1200 has both the ability to have an analog input connected near the head unit as well as several others near the pre-amp in the trunk of the car- near the amps.

So in an ideal world... I'd run an iPad Air - griffin 9.8 foot lighting to USB cable (which will hopefully pick up NO noise) to the DAC in the back of the car which would run into the Nakamichi TP-1200II separate rear Pre-amp unit. 

Less than ideal would be using the Apple Camera connection kit to USB. 

I had heard the AK 100 which- lacked bass drive- perhaps because of its small battery- but liked vocals and strings - perhaps because I like the Wolfson chip sound. At CES I heard the AK 120 which couldn't drive my Ultrasone Edition 9's well. Hearing the AK 240 gave good detail- but still lacked bass slam- I immediately thought I wasn't hearing a Wolfson chip and guessed that it might be something like iPOD Classic gen 6 Cirrus chip- which I asked the guy demoing it and he confirmed this. Things can come down to personal preference at this level- and for my money.....oddly I'm left with a quandry- despite liking the detail of the AK 240 I just wasn't grooving to the music like I would hope. 

I had previously dismissed the Apogee Duet 1 as sounding worse than the Apogee Mini DAC- and the older non IOS compatible Duet 2 also being marginal. But I was pretty surprised at the show today- I compared an NEW IOS compatible Apogee Quartet with the NEW IOS compatible Apogee Duet 2 side by side same system- and actually preferred the less expensive Duet 2. A steal at $595. Plus you can record with it- digitize your LPs for the car (we all can't have Nakamichi TP-1200's that work- so digitizing LP's is what you have to do for the car...  eerrrr yuh... ) It of course won't work for portable audio without and IOS device. But hey.... at least it is apple compliant so you can plug any Apple IOS device into it and it will just work. The large dial would be good for a car- and you could gang your front and rear speakers with it....ANNND The display is good to read in pretty much all lighting conditions (which makes sense for a performer on stage). But It wants to see 5 volts... so you can't directly wire it to your car battery like the Apogee Mini DAC.

So lets not crash our cars. Using a interface like the AK 240- while very cute... would likely get me killed in a car- You don't have much margin for error if you slightly miss your touch screen target- and the font sizes...well forget about being able to read them in a moving car with ambient city night lights. The volume dial is also a bit small- though the docking station is well designed.

So I still want to stick with a DAC that will work with IOS . The Lynx Studios Hilo- (bought that sold that).... had again amazing HF response and detail and good staging... but the vocals were pushed quite far to the rear of the soundstage. I could never hear beyond the vocalist's mouth- never hearing the throat or chest or subtle mouth movements. Which was odd since other HF detail was rendered so well. The Lynx Studios Hilo works great with a 12 volt battery- offers ganging volume pairs or not- and even could be pressed to do 5.1 sort of a volume kludge but possible , has lit meters- but again - powering it down, means having to get at the touch screen to configure it- a very confusing interface. It also runs hot and is large and heavy. Like the Duet 2 it can do A/D conversion.

I'm eliminating using a Meridian Explorer (and Audioquest Dragonfly) because you would need a Laptop in the car (which means it has to be open - or you would have to run another screen to keep it from going to sleep when closed) - or a headless Apple Mac Mini which hates voltage swings and cutting the power- would eventually cause it to fail permanently . 

HRT micro streamer won't do hi-rez.... 16bit 48khz max so it's out.

Chordette Qute I had high hopes- but it really needs a killer Power supply to sound great. I love its priority switching. That auto selects inputs according to what signal it sees and gives priority to better sounding inputs. It sounded very good with Redbook, and oddly not much better with hi rez PCM. I think the lit window showing the rough sample rate is via color great for a car at night. I demoed it and returned it. Also it is a DAC without a Volume control so it's not as easy a solution as the Apogee Duet 2 for those without a great in car pre-amp. (I have the Nakamichi TD-1200II so a "DAC only" is actually preferable for me.)

Decades ago when I started looking for better sources for the car (The area which IMHO car audio lacks) I was going to cut up a Wadia 860x and put it in my car- but as it turned out- vibration isolation is a big thing and would have compromised it. I had considered cutting up a Meridian Cd player -though I wasn't thrilled with the sound of that compared to the Wadia. I also was considering a california Audio labs - this was in the early 1990's.

Today- I also heard Tim de Paravincini's newest DAC pieces 

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/highend2013/highend2013_ear.htm

...very nice.. but that's also an expensive unit to cut up. I heard their headphone amp- which was great- except when unplugging the 1/4 headphone plug I heard the unit was slightly microphonic...it is a tube DAC. Tubes also like warm up.

The MSB Analog DAC... well my GF ended up getting one for the house and our business use (yes it's insane but we DJ with it too) . I spoke to Jonathan at MSB and he said they have had success in mobile installations with them (the power supply wants +12v, -12v, -24v, +24v so you are better off according to them using a Pure sine wave regenerator). 

http://www.morningstarcorp.com/products/suresine/

The MSB Analog DAC has been successfully installed in a a car, boats, and even a private Boeing 747. 

The MSB Analog DAC ($6995) with the desktop power supply, and a MSB UMT+ (universal media transport- reads any disc format $4000) and plays DSD even 128DSD and 32 bit 384kHz PCM (the DSD format seems to have weird HF smearing issues to me so far on ANY machine I play DSD on.....maybe when I get older I won't hear these issues). The MSB Analog DAC can take software upgrades (A little future proof)- you can option the inputs at $999 per input err...  $$$$$$. And it sounds best when fed signal via the MSB UMT+ and the UMT+ sounds best with it's separate dual power supply. and the Analog DAC sounds best with the Analog DAC Power base (same footprint)...and those power supplies will set you back nearly $4000....and that's WITHOUT your sine wave regenerator....and it would seem that all that cabling could make for a real reliability issue. Also this unit wants to be mechanically grounded. So while we have everything we need to stuff a MSB Analog DAC in the car... we are hesitant to do so. If things go well with whatever DAC we choose... then we might... yes we are that foolish- at least it is a hobby we both really enjoy sharing with one another- she's the one on my case if I delay our getting to an audio meet....after 5 hours of listening to stuff... she's the one most unhappy that the show is over.

The MSB's trump card? You can network it HARDWIRED via CAT-6 ethernet... use an IOS device running the Oppo app, and a NAS Drive to stream just about anything all this WITHOUT NEEDING A COMPUTER!!!! Pretty cool.

The downside.... not sure... I have not tested it to see if you could use iTunes as a browser skin with it. One other downside is hte MSB likes to be on all the time... needs a good warm up. 

Apogee Duet 2 or Apogee Mini DAC seem to not care at all about warm up. They are also prosumer road tough.



The LAST 2 wild cards left? 

The Lampizator 5 which I will be used in a system at T.H.E. Show Newport Beach 2014 in a Wells Audio room using Chapman T-8MKII speakers- tuned by Jeff Wells. Since McIntosh car amps are also solid state this would be a good indicator if the sound gotten is great. I really like the Lampizator guys and loaned them a set of Chapman T-7 loudspeakers when their speakers failed to show up on time at T.H.E. Show Las Vegas at the Flamingo 2014- running concurrently with CES 2014. I'm not sure that this design- which is tuned by hand and involves taping some wires into the best place in space- to freeze them.... would be durable enough for a car.

The Grace M903 or Grace M920 (the updated version) . Which Stereophile gives an A+ rating - incredibly reasonably priced at $1995. A low risk buy- as it would be easy to resell used.

2012 Recommended Components Digital Processors | Stereophile.com

Which I believe it still maintains this year. Their factory nearly went completely underwater from a huge flood in Lyons, Colorado this year. Super good guys running the show there.

This Grace M903 would need a Pure sine Wave inverter for the power supply- but would function as a high quality pre-amp in a bedroom system as well- and possibly be used for High fidelity DJ use.

Your head swimming yet??? Mine sure is... and of course.. if your install and tuning isn't top notch and your sound deadening isn't great...this is all for naught.

Does it all make a difference? I think so. I recently got props from The Absolute Sound for the way my room sounded at the 2013 Newport Beach Show- so that's something off the bucket list.... 

AVS showrooms also liked my room at T.H.E. Show Las Vegas 2014 

http://www.avshowrooms.com/Show_Vegas_2014_Vids_2.html

(listen with headphones as the bass will be lost from your laptop....his inexpensive Video camera MIC wasn't the greatest but you can hear detail as well as impact)

In regards to audiophile purists that hate EQ...
I think you definitely have to have parametric EQ in the car.... you can tune out a few major peaks and dips using your crossover points and levels ONLY if your drivers have significant frequency overlap potential but you'll never get rid of medium to narrow peaks without parametric EQ. I think I am headed in the right direction. Install and tuning count for an awful lot- but there are tuning limits where...simply having better components will take you the last step.

With just the Apogee Mini DAC my system sounded equivalent to a $65000 home system (albeit sitting slightly off center with the balance control slightly skewed for the drivers benefit) . So I think the expense for accuracy is ultimately going to give me a closer emotional connection to the artists intent.


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## 2DEEP2 (Jul 9, 2007)

Golden Ear, which SABRE is used in the Wadia?
Every where I looked says it's Wadia. I'm sure it's not.


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

2DEEP2 said:


> Golden Ear, which SABRE is used in the Wadia?
> Every where I looked says it's Wadia. I'm sure it's not.


Actually I'm not positive if it was a saber or a cirrus. 

The Wadia 121 could not possibly have the same DAC as the Wadia 860 and there is a synergy with the DAC in that and the Digimaster algorithm ... Just having the. Digimaster algorithm isn't enough... It has to blend and match with the particular DAC. Why?...

Because the DAC Was designed.... With a Digimaster algorithm to get a particular sound...... And if you change the DAC without adapting the Algorithm...well it's like putting a Porsche transmission in a Ferrari ... It's not going to be a great recipe for performance.

So in regard to which DAC was in the Wadia 121 ...all that really matters is that it wasn't the same as in the Wadia 860..... And so the Digimaster algorithm was not a true sonic match,

So it matters not what DAC is in the Wadia 121 but what DAC IS NOT IN IT...AND WHAT ANALOG SECTION WAS COMPROMISED with the price constraints forced upon a unit with consumer pricing.


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## 2DEEP2 (Jul 9, 2007)

I see... explains a lot.

Also wanted to say I appreciated the link to the show in Vegas.
It's been a while since I've seen the Owens.
He spent more time on the new damper product than he did on any of his wire products


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

I'll be at T.H.E. Show Newport Beach May 30,31,June 1. Tuning rooms. Tomorrow I'm meeting with a VP of the Los Angeles & Orange County Audio Society. He has a MX-406 with MCC 404 and some Morels in his Lexus.

So I am interested in the Grace M906 (Burr Brown DAC chipset ) now..cool controller. This would be a great unit for the car, also the Grace M920...(saber DAC ...hmmm). but adapting this Grace units for the car voltage..not so easy.

I'm not so sure I care about DSD...I just have never heard any DSD sound right yet..but almost all of my DSD listening has been done with SONY SACD.


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