# New School Soundstream gut pics



## IbizaOnAcid

I just picked up this SS Reference 1.100 today and thought someone might like to see under the hood.


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## IBcivic

Nice pics, thanx for posting


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## hottcakes

careful or the overlord will take them and make others pay for viewing.


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## bkjay

Holy caps Batman! Someone who knows amp design please chime in on what you think of the layout. Thanks for posting the pics.


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## bkjay

Just noticed something I've never seen. A 1000 watt amp with 2 sets of power and ground terminals. The only time I see this it's on big spl amps.


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## turbo5upra

I should take a listen... thing looks pretty robust!


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## envisionelec

I'm assuming you bought this used. The 470uF 80V capacitors near the audio section are already starting to bulge/vent....

Other than that massive reliability flaw...it could be nice.


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## IbizaOnAcid

WHAT? I bought this thing brand ****ing new! I'd be very interested in exactly what you are talking about envisionelec. :mean:


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## envisionelec

IbizaOnAcid said:


> WHAT? I bought this thing brand ****ing new! I'd be very interested in exactly what you are talking about envisionelec. :mean:


Wow - then I must be incorrect. The vents on some of the capacitors around the audio output stage (near the diagonally mounted resistors) appear to be punctured with some kind of crust around some of them. I noted just one bulged, but it could be the camera angle.

Normally capacitors don't have any kind of holes in the vents - a breach here indicates they have failed during a test or were damaged in manufacturing.


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## envisionelec

bkjay said:


> Holy caps Batman! Someone who knows amp design please chime in on what you think of the layout. Thanks for posting the pics.


It's actually quite nice. It's certainly a very unique design. I'd love to evaluate it.


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## IBcivic

Envision's observations made me curious...
I just took delivery of these


















Gut pics, comin' right up


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## IBcivic

Gut pics of the REF 4.760




































I did find that one of the 3amps, was of a previous year or generation
1 had PMC-480-11 and the other 2 had PMC-480-12 , on the pc-board, other than that, the components seem to be identical.


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## IbizaOnAcid

First off I apologize to everyone for my knee-jerk reaction to envisionelec's post. I am gonna open it back up and take a closer look. Obviously I'm hoping it's just my lack of photography skills that's causing those caps to look faulty but we'll see. 
amitaF, I have a 4.760 as well and IIRC the layout on those is quite different from the 1.1000. I have had the 4.760 powering my front stage for about 6 months and really like it. If everything is ok with the new amp it will be powering my subs (no ****, right?) and I will post up some photos of the finished product when it's done.
Happy almost New Year to all!


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## IBcivic

IbizaOnAcid said:


> First off I apologize to everyone for my knee-jerk reaction to envisionelec's post. I am gonna open it back up and take a closer look. Obviously I'm hoping it's just my lack of photography skills that's causing those caps to look faulty but we'll see.
> amitaF, I have a 4.760 as well and IIRC the layout on those is quite different from the 1.1000. I have had the 4.760 powering my front stage for about 6 months and really like it. If everything is ok with the new amp it will be powering my subs (no ****, right?) and I will post up some photos of the finished product when it's done.
> Happy almost New Year to all!


 I am anxiously waiting for a ref 2.370 and a ref 1.1000, too


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## envisionelec

amitaF said:


> Gut pics of the REF 4.760
> 
> I did find that one of the 3amps, was of a previous year or generation
> 1 had PMC-480-11 and the other 2 had PMC-480-12 , on the pc-board, other than that, the components seem to be identical.


This is a typical A/B amp, but interestingly, the output drivers are heatsinked right with the outputs and there is a good amount of HF compensation around them. The outputs are beefy TO-247 size. 

You don't see this sort of good engineering in car amplifiers much anymore. At first blush, I am impressed. There is a question of the heatsink clamps used - there should really be another pair of screws per clamp so that the output transistors are evenly clamped. But other than this minor detail, I think it's a nice design. 

I'm glad to see that the engineers chose to mix through hole and SMD technology where appropriate. Some high dissipation applications cannot be replaced with SMD - even if it looks good on paper. And bias pots! 

I am definitely impressed!


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## IBcivic

Sporting an ear to ear grin...thanx for the encouraging comments, envision


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## bkjay

envisionelec said:


> It's actually quite nice. It's certainly a very unique design. I'd love to evaluate it.


WOW! Thanks for your input. You sound like a fair guy,you speak your mind good or bad. Just looked on the SS site and saw the 1.1000 is a class G design any thoughts on their choice to use class G over D. Thanks on any info you can provide.


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## IbizaOnAcid

Well after opening the amp back up and taking a close look at those capacitors I'm afraid envisionelec is right! The damn things are leaking out of the top and many of them have holes right in the center of the top of them where the four "seams" meet. I swear I think I would rather go through the trouble of replacing them myself rather than the major hassle of returning it and waiting for a replacement. I imagine what it's going to cost me to ship it back to where I got it would cover a large part of the cost of replacements. envisionelec, what do you think about this? Am I an idiot to even consider this course of action? Please advise. As you can imagine I am quite bummed.
Thanks for your help and to quote Rodger Waters, "...amazing powers of observation".


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## IbizaOnAcid

Of course even if I did successfully change out the caps that still does nothing to address the reason they went bad in the first place. Man, what a drag!


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## envisionelec

IbizaOnAcid said:


> Well after opening the amp back up and taking a close look at those capacitors I'm afraid envisionelec is right! The damn things are leaking out of the top and many of them have holes right in the center of the top of them where the four "seams" meet. I swear I think I would rather go through the trouble of replacing them myself rather than the major hassle of returning it and waiting for a replacement. I imagine what it's going to cost me to ship it back to where I got it would cover a large part of the cost of replacements. envisionelec, what do you think about this? Am I an idiot to even consider this course of action? Please advise. As you can imagine I am quite bummed.
> Thanks for your help and to quote Rodger Waters, "...amazing powers of observation".


I absolutely wouldn't touch it. Get Grizz Archer in here to see what needs to be done. The capacitors brands (DKE) are known to be very cheap caps and knock offs of United Chemicon. This is exactly the kind of thing that will kill a good amp...or brand for that matter. The placement for these caps is critical due to the commutation currents in the output stage of this Class G amp. 
They have got to go and you should NOT be the one footing any of the bill!

Aaron


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## envisionelec

bkjay said:


> WOW! Thanks for your input. You sound like a fair guy,you speak your mind good or bad. Just looked on the SS site and saw the 1.1000 is a class G design any thoughts on their choice to use class G over D. Thanks on any info you can provide.


I'll get into the probable reasons for this when I'm back home and not typing into a mobile device.


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## underdog

Amazing observation ability








Great thread


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## WRX2010

that stinks that they would tout the return of the Reference line which look really nice and have good numbers with them and then use cheap components on something as inexpensive as the caps. I was seriously considering getting a couple of these, but now I am very undecided now.

Ibiza or AmitaF 

have either of you opened up one of the class A/B amps to see if the same crappy caps are used in those? If so, it would seem they would probably suffer the same issue unless it was jsut a bad batch of caps, but quality control must suck because I noticed the same thing envision did when I looked at the pics.

The original caps in some of my 15 to 20 year old amps look in better condition than those.


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## Grizz Archer

bkjay said:


> Just noticed something I've never seen. A 1000 watt amp with 2 sets of power and ground terminals. The only time I see this it's on big spl amps.


We did it just for you bro! If I had my way, we would do this on everything 1k or bigger. Also allows direct input for those who run caps, aux batteries, etc...


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## Grizz Archer

envisionelec said:


> This is a typical A/B amp, but interestingly, the output drivers are heatsinked right with the outputs and there is a good amount of HF compensation around them. The outputs are beefy TO-247 size.
> 
> You don't see this sort of good engineering in car amplifiers much anymore. At first blush, I am impressed. There is a question of the heatsink clamps used - there should really be another pair of screws per clamp so that the output transistors are evenly clamped. But other than this minor detail, I think it's a nice design.
> 
> I'm glad to see that the engineers chose to mix through hole and SMD technology where appropriate. Some high dissipation applications cannot be replaced with SMD - even if it looks good on paper. And bias pots!
> 
> I am definitely impressed!


I'm impressed that you're impressed.  I always value your opinion since I a not an amp engineer and like to hear what other knowledgeable people have to say. The REF boards took years to get right and all previous attempts fell short of what we were looking for. All of the grey ones that were sold in Europe were failures that our FIRED German distributor back doored directly from the factory. Imagine the load I almost dumped when I saw them in vehicles at the Sinsheim show! I was not happy. All of the new designs have been awesome for us, this far...


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## WhippingBoy

I agree that the new SS reference amps are well designed (I have the 4.760 and 2.640) but receiving a new product (might not be a legit dealer but...) with failing caps is unacceptable. I would be willing to bet that the 1.1000 Ibiza has is not one of the earlier models. Is there a way to tell if said amp was the latest or some developmental version?


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## Grizz Archer

envisionelec said:


> I absolutely wouldn't touch it. Get Grizz Archer in here to see what needs to be done. The capacitors brands (DKE) are known to be very cheap caps and knock offs of United Chemicon. This is exactly the kind of thing that will kill a good amp...or brand for that matter. The placement for these caps is critical due to the commutation currents in the output stage of this Class G amp.
> They have got to go and you should NOT be the one footing any of the bill!
> 
> Aaron


I already forwarded this to the amp engineer. What I am concerned with is how a part can fail with no use. At times like this, I wish I had more education in amplifier engineering. I will reply the second I hear back from the engineer. I cannot help but wonder if the amp sent was not truly new but maybe a returned amp to that distributor/shop. We have honestly had no issues with bad parts on unused amplifiers. Nobody should. So I am at a loss for words. But I will get an answer!


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## IBcivic

WRX2010 said:


> that stinks that they would tout the return of the Reference line which look really nice and have good numbers with them and then use cheap components on something as inexpensive as the caps. I was seriously considering getting a couple of these, but now I am very undecided now.
> 
> Ibiza or AmitaF
> 
> have either of you opened up one of the class A/B amps to see if the same crappy caps are used in those? If so, it would seem they would probably suffer the same issue unless it was jsut a bad batch of caps, but quality control must suck because I noticed the same thing envision did when I looked at the pics.
> 
> The original caps in some of my 15 to 20 year old amps look in better condition than those.


just scroll up to see the pics i posted of the 3 that i just recieved.... they look fine


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## WRX2010

My bad. the caps in the 4.760 look fine to me, although a little bulged at the top. don't look to be leaking or have the hole in the middle like the 1.1000 has.


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## Grizz Archer

Okay so here is what pour engineer said...

"Hi Grizz,

Those caps are not really under a lot of stress and there are a ton of them, so it is unlikely that they would fail, but it sounds like he received the amp like that. It is possible that there was bad production QC on the factory's part.

I would like to see if the rail voltage in that particular amp is maybe too high, which would cause that problem. If they were bad already when he got it before he hooked it up, teh caps definietlty went bad during factory's burn in and they did not notice it, and passed the amp.

Question how are the 1000's and REFs in general holding out in the field?

Yes, Iv'e see user envisionelec/aaron active on other forums also. He seems to like the general layout etc., which is a positive.

BTW I would really like you guys to consider Class D for the REF mono amps when the new factory does them - let's discuss."

So, obviously something is wrong. It could be our mistake, who knows? But either way, assuming the place you got it from is legit, they will swap it out. But please ask them to put your name on it with the problem when they send it back to us because our engineer wants to see it himself!


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## IBcivic

WRX2010 said:


> My bad. the caps in the 4.760 look fine to me, although a little bulged at the top. don't look to be leaking or have the hole in the middle like the 1.1000 has.


I ran my fingers on top of every single cap, to make sure....nada!

The only "bulge" was in my pants, when I opened these up, for inspection:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## IbizaOnAcid

Grizz Archer said:


> I already forwarded this to the amp engineer. What I am concerned with is how a part can fail with no use. At times like this, I wish I had more education in amplifier engineering. I will reply the second I hear back from the engineer. I cannot help but wonder if the amp sent was not truly new but maybe a returned amp to that distributor/shop. We have honestly had no issues with bad parts on unused amplifiers. Nobody should. So I am at a loss for words. But I will get an answer!


Thanks Grizz for looking into this. This whole situation has majorly derailed any and all plans I had for the next week or so. My one and only car is torn apart waiting for it's newly designed amp rack that was to contain two Reference amps. Now of course it looks like I will be putting the car back together sans amplifiers.
And although this sucks in a VERY big way, at least I feel like I have the right people in my corner to get this mess straightened out and that eventually not only will my car have an amp rack in it, it will contain HEALTHY SS Reference amps like I had planned all along!:blush:
So again thank you Grizz and thank you Aaron.


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## envisionelec

Grizz Archer said:


> Okay so here is what pour engineer said...
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Yes, Iv'e see user envisionelec/aaron active on other forums also. He seems to like the general layout etc., which is a positive.



I've not always been kind to many manufacturers. :blush: 

It's definitely a step up from the usual. I'm intrigued enough to want to peruse the schematic on that REF 1000.1, but I'm pretty certain that would never happen.

I'm not seeing commutation diodes on this design; is it actually Class H (variable power supply voltage)?


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## envisionelec

IbizaOnAcid said:


> Thanks Grizz for looking into this. This whole situation has majorly derailed any and all plans I had for the next week or so. My one and only car is torn apart waiting for it's newly designed amp rack that was to contain two Reference amps. Now of course it looks like I will be putting the car back together sans amplifiers.
> And although this sucks in a VERY big way, at least I feel like I have the right people in my corner to get this mess straightened out and that eventually not only will my car have an amp rack in it, it will contain HEALTHY SS Reference amps like I had planned all along!:blush:
> So again thank you Grizz and thank you Aaron.



I think the response on Epsilon's part is rather extraordinary. I would hate to see you install it (them?) only to have problems down the road. For your sake and for Soundstream/Epsilon's.


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## envisionelec

Despite appearances on the forums, I'm actually a fairly even-handed critic. It's just that there has been so much garbage made in the past 10 years that it has been hard to be supportive of the transformation of some of these companies' products. I know some people feel I should just leave well enough alone - and they're probably right. I don't force anyone to agree with what I observe. Me? I am always learning...I don't know everything - not even close. I just pay attention.

From a design standpoint, building a car amplifier is a nice amount of work. What isn't hard is replicating a design over and over, ad infinitum. I'm happy to see a truly different design that hasn't tried to bend the laws of physics and/or thermodynamics.

I like the departure into Class G for one reason - It's not Class D. There are so many problems with Asian-sourced Class D amplifiers. They're very hard on capacitors which are already very cheap to begin with. Their filter magnetics are often undersized and driven to saturation as they heat up to their Curie temperature and are then permanently damaged. And then they put a 30 cent fan to blow slightly-less hot air on the inductors! 

Class G is less efficient than Class D at all but the lowest levels and almost as efficient near maximum power. But, I genuinely suspect that so many of these cheap Class D's have such terrible losses that their efficiency is probably overstated.

I think it was the right move to go Class G. I just hope the capacitor/power supply issue is identified and isolated quickly.


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## envisionelec

Double post. Hmm. Sorry.


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## alachua

Grizz Archer said:


> Okay so here is what pour engineer said...
> 
> "Hi Grizz,
> 
> Those caps are not really under a lot of stress and there are a ton of them, so it is unlikely that they would fail, but it sounds like he received the amp like that. It is possible that there was bad production QC on the factory's part.
> 
> I would like to see if the rail voltage in that particular amp is maybe too high, which would cause that problem. If they were bad already when he got it before he hooked it up, teh caps definietlty went bad during factory's burn in and they did not notice it, and passed the amp.
> 
> Question how are the 1000's and REFs in general holding out in the field?
> 
> Yes, Iv'e see user envisionelec/aaron active on other forums also. He seems to like the general layout etc., which is a positive.
> 
> BTW I would really like you guys to consider Class D for the REF mono amps when the new factory does them - let's discuss."
> 
> So, obviously something is wrong. It could be our mistake, who knows? But either way, assuming the place you got it from is legit, they will swap it out. But please ask them to put your name on it with the problem when they send it back to us because our engineer wants to see it himself!


FWIW, I really appreciate the way you handle open communication here on the board. Service like you and Andy from JBL provide is really rare and is the main reason I have been suggesting your products when friends ask what to get for their own cars. 

Also, start selling the dang PPI/Soundstream 2.5" mid range driver separate of the component set!


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## WhippingBoy

After seeing this thread, I took the time to open up both my 2.640 and 4.760. No cap problems whatsoever. Everything looked nice and clean, no bulging or venting of any kind.

I also agree that it's been very nice to see a SS rep on the board and addressing potential issues very quickly and openly. Gives me a lot more faith in Epsilon.


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## IbizaOnAcid

Just a quick update. I contacted the distributor I bought the amp from and explained the situation. They were extremely accommodating and said they would send me out a new one as soon as I shipped the defective one back. They should receive the amp from me today so I am hoping I have a replacement by mid-week next. I will post up some pics of the replacement when it arrives. I pray with better results this time.

Again guys, thanks for everything.


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## bkjay

That's great news! Can't wait to hear your feedback after it's install.


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## IBcivic

That's great news.


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## Grizz Archer

alachua said:


> FWIW, I really appreciate the way you handle open communication here on the board. Service like you and Andy from JBL provide is really rare and is the main reason I have been suggesting your products when friends ask what to get for their own cars.
> 
> Also, start selling the dang PPI/Soundstream 2.5" mid range driver separate of the component set!


Ya know, in the 80s, anything somebody could do right or special was treated like a secret. I hated that crap. Sharing successes is a great way to sell one's ability. Likewise, what is the big freaking deal if I am honest with all you guys. Is somebody going to look down on me for that because I always deviate from the norm? I've said it before - I come on here whenever I can to help, but also to learn from you guys. I get a lot of great feedback, as well as some ****ty feedback, but hey it is not like we all have to take an IQ and personality test to become a member. lol I'll always divulge whatever I can. If I do not have the answer, I freely admit it and get the answer form somebody that knows.

BTW, I just received 250 more 2.5" because believe it or not, the 3-ways outsell the 2-ways 2-to-1 (for PPI that has both). This seems impossible and could not have been predicted. But it has been that way since day they came out, plus, other countries, like Japan, will buy nearly have of one of our orders of 3-way components in one shot! They get it...

Anyway, I can sell the set of 2.5" to DIYMA guys for $75, BUT, like all of my team orders, orders must be $500. It costs us about $110 when you figure in receiving/warehouse/data entry/order processing/shipping/accounting, etc... Bummer, but I cannot spend time spitting out tiny orders that consume a bunch of time and cost us money. The $75 deal is for DIYMA members only, however, if you wanted to buy several sets for you mom, grandfather and cousin's dog, I could are less. This is why the DIYMA sales deal would have been great for everybody. Anyway, they are available. Just scoop or a Ref or PC amp to go with them!


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## Grizz Archer

envisionelec said:


> Despite appearances on the forums, I'm actually a fairly even-handed critic. It's just that there has been so much garbage made in the past 10 years that it has been hard to be supportive of the transformation of some of these companies' products. I know some people feel I should just leave well enough alone - and they're probably right. I don't force anyone to agree with what I observe. Me? I am always learning...I don't know everything - not even close. I just pay attention.
> 
> From a design standpoint, building a car amplifier is a nice amount of work. What isn't hard is replicating a design over and over, ad infinitum. I'm happy to see a truly different design that hasn't tried to bend the laws of physics and/or thermodynamics.
> 
> I like the departure into Class G for one reason - It's not Class D. There are so many problems with Asian-sourced Class D amplifiers. They're very hard on capacitors which are already very cheap to begin with. Their filter magnetics are often undersized and driven to saturation as they heat up to their Curie temperature and are then permanently damaged. And then they put a 30 cent fan to blow slightly-less hot air on the inductors!
> 
> Class G is less efficient than Class D at all but the lowest levels and almost as efficient near maximum power. But, I genuinely suspect that so many of these cheap Class D's have such terrible losses that their efficiency is probably overstated.
> 
> I think it was the right move to go Class G. I just hope the capacitor/power supply issue is identified and isolated quickly.


BTW, I got an email from our engineer and he advised me that the design does indeed use variable power supply voltage. I am not entirely sure what that means, but figured you would like to know...


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## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> Ya know, in the 80s, anything somebody could do right or special was treated like a secret. I hated that crap. Sharing successes is a great way to sell one's ability. Likewise, what is the big freaking deal if I am honest with all you guys. Is somebody going to look down on me for that because I always deviate from the norm? I've said it before - I come on here whenever I can to help, but also to learn from you guys. I get a lot of great feedback, as well as some ****ty feedback, but hey it is not like we all have to take an IQ and personality test to become a member. lol I'll always divulge whatever I can. If I do not have the answer, I freely admit it and get the answer form somebody that knows.
> 
> BTW, I just received 250 more 2.5" because believe it or not, the 3-ways outsell the 2-ways 2-to-1 (for PPI that has both). This seems impossible and could not have been predicted. But it has been that way since day they came out, plus, other countries, like Japan, will buy nearly have of one of our orders of 3-way components in one shot! They get it...
> 
> Anyway, I can sell the set of 2.5" to DIYMA guys for $75, BUT, like all of my team orders, orders must be $500. It costs us about $110 when you figure in receiving/warehouse/data entry/order processing/shipping/accounting, etc... Bummer, but I cannot spend time spitting out tiny orders that consume a bunch of time and cost us money. The $75 deal is for DIYMA members only, however, if you wanted to buy several sets for you mom, grandfather and cousin's dog, I could are less. This is why the DIYMA sales deal would have been great for everybody. Anyway, they are available. Just scoop or a Ref or PC amp to go with them!


This is awesome!
I didn't know you could buy them separately.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## quietfly

Grizz Archer said:


> Ya know, in the 80s, anything somebody could do right or special was treated like a secret. I hated that crap. Sharing successes is a great way to sell one's ability. Likewise, what is the big freaking deal if I am honest with all you guys. Is somebody going to look down on me for that because I always deviate from the norm? I've said it before - I come on here whenever I can to help, but also to learn from you guys. I get a lot of great feedback, as well as some ****ty feedback, but hey it is not like we all have to take an IQ and personality test to become a member. lol I'll always divulge whatever I can. If I do not have the answer, I freely admit it and get the answer form somebody that knows.
> 
> BTW, I just received 250 more 2.5" because believe it or not, the 3-ways outsell the 2-ways 2-to-1 (for PPI that has both). This seems impossible and could not have been predicted. But it has been that way since day they came out, plus, other countries, like Japan, will buy nearly have of one of our orders of 3-way components in one shot! They get it...
> 
> Anyway, I can sell the set of 2.5" to DIYMA guys for $75, BUT, like all of my team orders, orders must be $500. It costs us about $110 when you figure in receiving/warehouse/data entry/order processing/shipping/accounting, etc... Bummer, but I cannot spend time spitting out tiny orders that consume a bunch of time and cost us money. The $75 deal is for DIYMA members only, however, if you wanted to buy several sets for you mom, grandfather and cousin's dog, I could are less. This is why the DIYMA sales deal would have been great for everybody. Anyway, they are available. Just scoop or a Ref or PC amp to go with them!


So that means the total order has to be 500.00, right?

just checking...


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## envisionelec

Grizz Archer said:


> BTW, I got an email from our engineer and he advised me that the design does indeed use variable power supply voltage. I am not entirely sure what that means, but figured you would like to know...


Yes, thank you! That's technically Class H. 

To explain - it means that the power supply voltage is modulated by the audio input so that the rail voltage is slightly above the audio output voltage by 6-10 volts. It keeps power dissipation in the transistors to a bare minimum. The concept was popularized by Carver/Sunfire and BASH and is an excellent implementation for car audio. I _*am impressed.*_

I'm very happy to see that you guys have made strides like this. I look forward to more innovation.


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## TrickyRicky

bkjay said:


> Just noticed something I've never seen. A 1000 watt amp with 2 sets of power and ground terminals. The only time I see this it's on big spl amps.


My Kenwood KAC1023 has two sets and its rated for 600watts or peaks of 1200watts.


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## mikelycka

crazy looks great how does it sound?


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## IbizaOnAcid

Just a quick update.

I finally received my replacement REF1.1000 yesterday and am happy to report that the caps look fine. Halleluiah!

It will probably be a few days before I have time to install it but when I do finish up the install I will definately share my experience with everyone pertaining to performance and such.

Really looking forward to finally taking this thing for a spin.

Until then......


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## WhippingBoy

Thanks for the update. Did Soundstream ever give you a reason for the capacitor problem?

Let us know how it performs.


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## bkjay

Thats great! Can't wait to hear your thoughts.


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## IbizaOnAcid

WhippingBoy said:


> Thanks for the update. Did Soundstream ever give you a reason for the capacitor problem?
> 
> Let us know how it performs.


From what I understand they will take a look at it when it makes it back into their hands and try and figure out what went wrong.
I'm sure that when that happens Grizz being as open and straight forward as he is will share the findings with us! This, of course, is pure speculation but his record of sharing information with us here on this forum speaks for itself.


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## WLDock

Here are the internals of the REF1.500:










These look very nice in person...a very classy new school take on an old school legend.


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## bkjay

I love gut shots. Thanks for posting.


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## Blazemore

G circuitry, tell use what you think once hooked up.


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## ek9cv5

Wow im impressed


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## IBcivic

OP... any updates?


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## IbizaOnAcid

Sorry been crazy busy! Got everything installed and it sounds great. I promise to take some pics in the next few days so even though you can't hear it you can see how it looks all hooked up and ready to rock!


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## sirvent_95

bkjay said:


> Just noticed something I've never seen. A 1000 watt amp with 2 sets of power and ground terminals. The only time I see this it's on big spl amps.


Boston GT-28 (1200W RMS) uses same style of power input. Two sets of 4awg power inputs.


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## Nocturnus

I'll be picking up a REF1.1000 and 2.640 in the next month or so.. Can't wait.


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## CrossFired

envisionelec said:


> I'm assuming you bought this used. The 470uF 80V capacitors near the audio section are already starting to bulge/vent....
> 
> Other than that massive reliability flaw...it could be nice.


Nothing a handfull of Panasonic caps and a soldering iron cant fix


----------



## dales

wow. im thoroughly impressed. i miss all my old school Ref 700 amps from the 90's. after seeing this thread and the awesome design of the new amps, i may venture to try one. my interest is sparked!!!


----------



## GlasSman

Having guys like Envisionlec say they look well engineered speaks volumes.

Plus having been on the market gave them a chance to work the kinks out.....thats the main reason I waited so long

I have a closet full of old school SS amps but I think after seeing the prices the new ones sell for I'll pick up a few 2.640 and a few 2.370 to run a full 4 way system.

The 1.500 oddly looks like it only puts out full power into 2 ohm minimum and puts out less power than the 2.640.

It would have been nice to see them make the boards a bit deeper so all the transistors could fit under the board....all the larger REF amps I've seen have half the output devices clamped under the board with the other half are not under the board.....they did it in the old days....not sure why they can't now.


----------



## envisionelec

GlasSman said:


> Having guys like Envisionlec say they look well engineered speaks volumes.


Gee, thanks. Do I really have that kind of impact? :blush:


----------



## GlasSman

envisionelec said:


> Gee, thanks. Do I really have that kind of impact? :blush:


Well you seem to know what you're talking about with amp designs.

I've learned a few things about the board designs of the different classes just because of the easy to understand way you explain things.


----------



## JAX

Anyone else have an update on how these refs perform?

I have a ref 2.640 but it wasn't my original plan for sub amp


----------



## GlasSman

JAX said:


> Anyone else have an update on how these refs perform?
> 
> I have a ref 2.640 but it wasn't my original plan for sub amp


Theres a review on a REF 4.920 and the reviewer was *VERY* impressed with it.

When you get yours in you can tell us what you think about it.....and of course *show those guts*.....


----------



## Audiophyle

bkjay said:


> Just noticed something I've never seen. A 1000 watt amp with 2 sets of power and ground terminals. The only time I see this it's on big spl amps.


Phoenix Gold Xenon 1200.1 & 200.4 also have dual power connectors, but they are also pretty big amps 





CrossFired said:


> Nothing a handfull of Panasonic caps and a soldering iron cant fix


As stated before from the mouth of the engineer courtesy of Griz, the caps are not stressed and there are a lot of them. There had to be a reason for them to fail so quickly, and had the OP actually replaced them with higher grade components there is still a strong possibility the real issue would have simply killed the good caps & leave the OP up a creek without a warranty. Cap replacements are easy enough, but the OP did the right thing here.





envisionelec said:


> Gee, thanks. Do I really have that kind of impact? :blush:


Absolutely! Feedback of any kind from an intelligent source is a good thing. But when that knowledgeable source is actually biased against typical market practice (ie warranted skepticism) and STILL has positive things to say.... then it is a GREAT thing.

Being a long time fan of SS (& PG) equipment from back in the day, I am completely biased toward their success, and it makes me happy to see they are trying to revive themselves and actually doing things right.



Those new Ref amps are just begging for a replacement plexiglass bottom and a showcase install. I cant be the only one thinking that, am I?


----------



## GlasSman

JAX said:


> Anyone else have an update on how these refs perform?
> 
> I have a ref 2.640 but it wasn't my original plan for sub amp


Just seen it in the Classifieds.

When it comes to new audio gear Jax has butter all over his hands.....anything he touches slips right out in a blnk of an eye.


----------



## Nocturnus

I should be able to post a 4.400 and 1.1000 gut shot this weekend if all goes as planned.


----------



## 1styearsi

CHINA?
CHINA!!!!
SEE WHAT HAPPENS!
SO THAT'S WHAT AMERICAN ENGINERRED MADE IN CHINA MEANS!!!!!!!!!!!
THAT SUCKS BUT THE GUT'S STILL LOOK SWEET.
I WOULD ALMOST HAVE TO PUT PLEXI ON THEM AND MOUNT THEM UPSIDE DOWN IN A AMP BOX WITH A PUSH PULL FAN SET UP
THAT WAY TOU CAN KEEP A EYE ON THOSE CAPS


----------



## mcqueena

Speaking of caps.


----------



## 1styearsi

sorry i got a little amped up forgive the pun


----------



## Dave88LX

This thread was an interesting read. Glad the OP got the new amp sorted out. What ever became of the old amp, and was it a one-off problem?


----------



## IbizaOnAcid

Well I am the original poster and unfortunately I have no idea what became of that amp or what conclusions they came to as far as a reason for the cap meltdown. I of course would love to know what exactly the deal was but I'm convinced we will never know.
On a positive note I am still rockin the replacement 1.1000 I got along with a 4.760. No problems whatsoever with either of them and they sound damn good. I've been really wanting to downsize my install and go with one of the new small footprint full range class D amps out there but every time I open my trunk I am so impressed and amazed at how beautiful those new SS Refs are I just can't bring myself to pull them out of there! They really do look that good.. Now if I could only shrink those suckers....


----------



## bkjay

Thanks for the update,glad you like them. Temp. wise how do you rate them compared to other amps you had? See my amps in my sig. I'm thinking about switching to these. I'm a bid SS fan.


----------



## IbizaOnAcid

Mine are installed in a false floor in the trunk of a 2000 civic with five little 2 in. exhaust fans and I've never even known them to get warm. Seriously!


----------



## tnbubba

BTW SS ref's not made in china! and man my 920's rock


----------



## piyush7243

Totally agree, they are made in Korea and they rock.

They never get hot at all where's my Sinfoni goes really hot. Going back from Sinfoni to my modified SS Hru.4.

By the way I also have ref 920 which I'm never going to sell

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## mob17

Really interesting read. 

How would a SS Ref4.760 compare to a Mosconi Gladen 120.4?


----------



## bkjay

Thanks for all the feedback guys!


----------



## subwoofery

mob17 said:


> Really interesting read.
> 
> How would a SS Ref4.760 compare to a Mosconi Gladen 120.4?


If I had the choice, I'd go with the Soundstream but that's just me  

The size of the Mosconi is really appealing though... 

Kelvin


----------



## impact

mob17 said:


> Really interesting read.
> 
> How would a SS Ref4.760 compare to a Mosconi Gladen 120.4?


I've sold and used both. I'd say the Ref would be a better all around amp. Can't beat the price and quality of the amp. Size wise the 120.4 is where it has an edge. I run a ref 4.920 in my truck and have to say it's a very enjoyable amp. Taking all areas into consideration ( performance, price, size, ect) I think the ref amps are hard to beat. I've used Mosconi, Genesis, DLS, Zapco, TRU ect and the ref may not be as great as some of those higher end amps but price considered it surely is a contender.


----------



## tnbubba

few tweaks and the ref is a giant killer..fyi


----------



## JAX

tnbubba said:


> few tweaks and the ref is a giant killer..fyi


Tweaks? Explain ?


----------



## tnbubba

lol can't lips r sealed ..
tear one apart reverse engineer it and figure it out..

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


----------



## JAX

tnbubba said:


> lol can't lips r sealed ..
> tear one apart reverse engineer it and figure it out..
> 
> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



Obviously not my talent but I know someone who could. 

On me , I won't tell


----------



## tnbubba

no..
I promised and I keep my promises..
if i was in it for money i would have sold out long ago..lol


----------



## JAX

I meant pm me. 

What is the problem with divulging useful info?

I am sure if I bought one and sent it to me tech he could figure out improvements. He designs the crap for a living. 

What did your mystery mods gain?


----------



## tnbubba

let your tech do it then...
I don't work for free & I don't give out tips for free..
and I don't divulge info that was given to me on my word I would not share it..

simple enuff

didn't say someone else shouldn't do it themselves


----------



## CDT FAN

Since there are so many SS fans in here, I have a question. The 1.1000 is rated at 2 ohms and 1 ohm. How much power do you think it will make at 4 ohms?


----------



## piyush7243

JAX said:


> I meant pm me.
> 
> What is the problem with divulging useful info?
> 
> I am sure if I bought one and sent it to me tech he could figure out improvements. He designs the crap for a living.
> 
> What did your mystery mods gain?


I have some info.lemme share over pm

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## JAX

tnbubba said:


> let your tech do it then...
> I don't work for free & I don't give out tips for free..
> and I don't divulge info that was given to me on my word I would not share it..
> 
> simple enuff
> 
> didn't say someone else shouldn't do it themselves



kind of have an attitude there..

I understand not wanting to break your word but you cant tell what improvements you have? that is not the same as saying what was done.

I guess if you didnt want anyone to ask then you shouldnt have opened that can.


----------



## piyush7243

Replacement of opamps by BB OP amps. Replacement of transistors and various in power section and output section to name a few.

Sanken wont fit due to size constraints

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## mob17

impact said:


> I've sold and used both. I'd say the Ref would be a better all around amp. Can't beat the price and quality of the amp. Size wise the 120.4 is where it has an edge. I run a ref 4.920 in my truck and have to say it's a very enjoyable amp. Taking all areas into consideration ( performance, price, size, ect) I think the ref amps are hard to beat. I've used Mosconi, Genesis, DLS, Zapco, TRU ect and the ref may not be as great as some of those higher end amps but price considered it surely is a contender.


As Kelvin says the size of the Mosconi is appealing. Price wise i can actually get the Gladen One 120.4 at the same price as the Ref4.760 with a 2 year UK warranty. So maybe the Mosconi would be a better choice?

Also i have a Vibe Litebox Stereo 4 (which apparantly is a close copy of one of the arc audio minis). Are these sort of amps completely in a different league compared to SS, Mosconi? My plan is to fit the Vibe soon but can someone directly compare the Vibe to a SS/Mosconi? Sorry for going a little off topic by the way.


----------



## tnbubba

not even close on mods piy.. wouldn't let anything BB has near these amps..
and why replace working transistors/???


----------



## CDT FAN

I'm guessing that you could bump up the power supply voltage.


----------



## piyush7243

tnbubba said:


> not even close on mods piy.. wouldn't let anything BB has near these amps..
> and why replace working transistors/???


Sooooo Burr Brown OP amps are not that good. Then what do you suggest.

Are we talking about power section moda our sound section.


Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## subwoofery

piyush7243 said:


> Sooooo Burr Brown OP amps are not that good. Then what do you suggest.
> 
> Are we talking about power section moda our sound section.
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2


If I had to guess, both  What about fans and bias setting? 

Kelvin


----------



## JAX

tnbubba said:


> not even close on mods piy.. wouldn't let anything BB has near these amps..
> and why replace working transistors/???


I am curious , I am not a tech , but why would you say that ? Are you a tech? 

Maybe I should ask my buddy to chime in on this topic


----------



## JAX

I dont know what super secret mods you (tnbubba) did or had done but I have to ask based on what I have learned, why not just buy a better amp to begin with rather than turn a $350 amp into a $650 amp?


now if you buy a broken amp and have it fixed and upgraded that would make more sense. 


I have had one of these new refs and it was a nice looking amp but I am told is that it could be better and still uses cheap chinese parts which means its not going to last like the good old days. 

the question is how much is it worth to improve it? that depends on individual

most amps made today can be improved unless its some no expense spared high dollar amp


----------



## TrickyRicky

Even done high end amps use cheap components. I've seen 800 dollar amps use the cheapest capacitors. Why because it saves them lots of money.


----------



## JAX

TrickyRicky said:


> Even done high end amps use cheap components. I've seen 800 dollar amps use the cheapest capacitors. Why because it saves them lots of money.


True 

The new PG Elite amps are not cheap and use some good parts but as my tech told me even it still has some cheap Chinese parts. 

Very few amps made today like old days with tolerances within 1% and all that. 

This does have me thinking of buying a broken or cheap amp that I can send to my tech and have him mod it. 

He has done it , can do it and knows what to do. 

And total will be lot less than buying a new amp and having to redo it all. 

All I would need to do I ask him what the best candidate for that would be.


----------



## Blazemore

There is no magic dust here. If you really want a amp you can tweak and see a big difference then get a tube.


----------



## JAX

Blazemore said:


> There is no magic dust here. If you really want a amp you can tweak and see a big difference then get a tube.



You say this based on what? What tube amp are you using ? Is it a real tube amp or a pretend ? If its real then your talking big money. 

My tech is not just a solder jockey , he designs this crap. He knows what provides benefits. 

I guess I need to buy a broke amp and see what he can do.


----------



## AlfaNewB

i hope you are aware that this is not a real soundstream product, power acoustic owns soundstream for quite a while now. the last of the real soundsdream was the rubicon1002


----------



## Grizz Archer

Blazemore said:


> There is no magic dust here. If you really want a amp you can tweak and see a big difference then get a tube.


And even, then, it needs to be FULL TUBE. Not just tubes on input OR output. It is like putting mini tubes in a car audio preamp. Stupid...


----------



## Grizz Archer

AlfaNewB said:


> i hope you are aware that this is not a real soundstream product, power acoustic owns soundstream for quite a while now. the last of the real soundsdream was the rubicon1002


You mean _original. And Power Acoustik does not own Soundstream. Epsilon owns PA, SS, PPI and SPL..._


----------



## benny

AlfaNewB said:


> i hope you are aware that this is not a real soundstream product, power acoustic owns soundstream for quite a while now. the last of the real soundsdream was the rubicon1002


NOWAI! Next thing you'll be telling us how Eclipse is no longer in the North American market.


----------



## acid_burn

can anyone compare the ref1.1000 to an aq1200d?

looking for a new sub amp and they cost nearly the same. also have a few similar features that i like.

will be running sub at 2 ohms but power isn't really an issue. just wondering if there would be a noticeable difference in quality between the two.

thanks.


----------



## AlfaNewB

benny said:


> NOWAI! Next thing you'll be telling us how Eclipse is no longer in the North American market.


LOL.. well im just saying, i dont treat soundstream products like the "ORIGINAL" products.


----------



## IBcivic

acid_burn said:


> can anyone compare the ref1.1000 to an aq1200d?
> 
> looking for a new sub amp and they cost nearly the same. also have a few similar features that i like.
> 
> will be running sub at 2 ohms but power isn't really an issue. just wondering if there would be a noticeable difference in quality between the two.
> 
> thanks.


I'd get the S-S, if it was me...but I'm biased.


----------



## IBcivic

AlfaNewB said:


> LOL.. well im just saying, i dont treat soundstream products like the "ORIGINAL" products.


Good to know that you are living in the past.

The OT is about the new version of the ref. Series.


----------



## rexroadj

AlfaNewB said:


> LOL.. well im just saying, i dont treat soundstream products like the "ORIGINAL" products.


Its called ignorance.......unfortunately your not alone. Having done a/b testing and reviews of the new with old........you can keep your old smokestream


----------



## CDT FAN

rexroadj said:


> Its called ignorance.......unfortunately your not alone. Having done a/b testing and reviews of the new with old........you can keep your old smokestream


Is there a link to read about it? I would like to see how they compare. I remember back in the 90's when the SS amps had a reputation for SQ. I always wanted one. A few months ago, I bought a new SS Ref 4.760. I haven't gotten it installed yet, but can't wait to see what it is capable of. I think the photos of the inside sure look pretty. Especially, the 1.1000. It looks like a beast. I almost bought one from here, but I couldn't talk myself into it since I already had an amp for my sub that I know has a lot a clean power.


----------



## rexroadj

CDT FAN said:


> Is there a link to read about it? I would like to see how they compare. I remember back in the 90's when the SS amps had a reputation for SQ. I always wanted one. A few months ago, I bought a new SS Ref 4.760. I haven't gotten it installed yet, but can't wait to see what it is capable of. I think the photos of the inside sure look pretty. Especially, the 1.1000. It looks like a beast. I almost bought one from here, but I couldn't talk myself into it since I already had an amp for my sub that I know has a lot a clean power.


Im not saying old build quality isnt better then new....I cant win that argument. $ vs performance/clean STRONG output? I'll take the new ALL DAY LONG!

Old was great....I'm not saying it wasnt....but lets not forget about there long stretch they were known as smokestream for the Pufffff they were known to give for a while. All I'm saying is take them off the pedestal....they werent perfect or the best! 

I think you will be VERY satisfied with the new one (love the xovers on the new ones too!)


----------



## CDT FAN

rexroadj said:


> Im not saying old build quality isnt better then new....I cant win that argument. $ vs performance/clean STRONG output? I'll take the new ALL DAY LONG!
> 
> Old was great....I'm not saying it wasnt....but lets not forget about there long stretch they were known as smokestream for the Pufffff they were known to give for a while. All I'm saying is take them off the pedestal....they werent perfect or the best!
> 
> I think you will be VERY satisfied with the new one (love the xovers on the new ones too!)


I hope you didn't think I was arguing. I have no knowledge either way. I just keep hearing people talk about it and I am curious to see how the old vs new technology and manufacuring methods stack up. Soundstream advertising claims that the new versions are improved, but it seems that most things aren't built to last anymore.


----------



## IBcivic

rexroadj said:


> Its called ignorance.......unfortunately your not alone. Having done a/b testing and reviews of the new with old........you can keep your old smokestream


Reading your review(s) about the refs, is what convinced me to pull the trigger on my current ref collection.


----------



## rexroadj

CDT FAN said:


> I hope you didn't think I was arguing. I have no knowledge either way. I just keep hearing people talk about it and I am curious to see how the old vs new technology and manufacuring methods stack up. Soundstream advertising claims that the new versions are improved, but it seems that most things aren't built to last anymore.


No not at all! I just always speak so highly of the new I didnt want to detract from the good of the old....just to keep a perspective was all. 

At the end of the day....were all allowed our opinions....not all of us have to like them but its a right we have. My issues with most about this particular topic is that 90% that talk bad about the new when considered to the old have never so much as touched a new one? I HATE THAT *&^%! If your going to say something one way or another you better be able to prove that A. youve used it and B. reasons for your statements.....someone does that? I'm cool with it! 

Didnt take anything you said argumentative at all! Hope I didnt seem that way to you also....not my intent! I do have a tendency to get a little "touchy" about this 


(Edited due to not an OT thread)


----------



## AlfaNewB

its not considered ignorance, when a good company gets bougth out and the end results turn to junk.. i like my smokestream, as old as they are they still power up play loud and run HOT.. lol.. but i run audison vrx amps now. but anyways back to your new gear...


----------



## rexroadj

AlfaNewB said:


> its not considered ignorance, when a good company gets bougth out and the end results turn to junk.. i like my smokestream, as old as they are they still power up play loud and run HOT.. lol.. but i run audison vrx amps now. but anyways back to your new gear...


Oh....so buyouts equal junk huh? 
Ever wonder why these companies get bought.....or in most (this case) need to sell? Yeah..ponder that one a little before you go on with your transparent theory. Now.....explain what NEW ss amps you have used and how/why they are junk. If you use build location as your argument? You will get shredded. Better bring your A game with this conversation....if your gonna spout something you better be able to produce some facts about it!


----------



## AlfaNewB

my personal experience the quality is just no longer there.. i dont really care if i will get shredded. the new stuff just isn't as good as the old stuff.. thats my personal experience and thought.. the build quality looks cheap aswell.. and it's my personal opinion i was only stating that there no longer the same as they use to be.. you get easily offended pretty funny if you ask me..


----------



## rexroadj

AlfaNewB said:


> my personal experience the quality is just no longer there.. i dont really care if i will get shredded. the new stuff just isn't as good as the old stuff.. thats my personal experience and thought.. the build quality looks cheap aswell.. and it's my personal opinion i was only stating that there no longer the same as they use to be.. you get easily offended pretty funny if you ask me..


Easily offended? No, actually not at all...tired of bs ignorant statements with ZERO to back it up? Yes, zero patience..Nor should any be given....so since you couldnt answer my questions I will put you with the other ignorant jackasses that have NO clue what they are talking about and have clearly never touched one. Let alone used one....You=fail! Try again!

No they are not the same as they used to be......NO ONE is......Not completely a bad thing given the market. But please, keep your head DEEP up your own ass while speaking! Cause it makes O so much sense 
Yeah....we dont need ignorance here.....have you looked into ca.com?


----------



## AlfaNewB

actually i did own a few products after they got bought out and they were bad.. i had 2 12inch exact subs, garbage, i had a rub 406 i cant remember the model number it was a 4 channel amp, the turantula, 15inch turantula sub, and thats when i stopped looking into soundstream.. the only soundstream equipement i have left are 2 rubicon class a 5.2 and rubicon 1002, some misc components...air bass with keychain, an old balanced crossover..


----------



## tnbubba

Don’t know but I only have about 650 total in my ss amps an noting under 4 digits will touch them
Bought them new from grizz

And they are not full of Cheap ass Chinese parts like the amp u probably use or 99 % of everybody else
But they are full of Korean parts,,,

No I just pulled a bunch of 5532 and 072 opamps out of a name brand home amp and they were freakin knock offs.. I mean jeeze why knock off a ****ty 5532 10 cent chip?

I deal with the Chinese on a weekly basis and I would not anything built in that country.


----------



## rexroadj

AlfaNewB said:


> actually i did own a few products after they got bought out and they were bad.. i had 2 12inch exact subs, garbage, i had a rub 406 i cant remember the model number it was a 4 channel amp, the turantula, 15inch turantula sub, and thats when i stopped looking into soundstream.. the only soundstream equipement i have left are 2 rubicon class a 5.2 and rubicon 1002, some misc components...air bass with keychain, an old balanced crossover..


WOW.....brilliant description of how things were "garbage" and why other things were bad (which somethings you mentioned were pre buyout so you sound like more of a tool......full of ****!)
So can you describe why or can you just say your full of **** for the sake of me having to wasting my time ripping you and your crap stories to ****? Seriously..... bring your A game. Your showing up to a proverbial gun fight with a ****ing q tip!
What else you got? I expect crickets or epic fail next!


----------



## AlfaNewB

LMAO...ive said enough... you dont like my opinion, and i dont really give a **** about yours... to me its no longer the real soundstream.. and thats it..


----------



## Grizz Archer

Ok, I do not work there anymore, but I have to ask. I am not picking on, or shredding anybody. I just want to know...

What is it about 20 year old technology that people like better than new technology? **** Soundstream - I am talking about ALL manufacturers. I can appreciate nostalgia as much as the next, but that does not make a an old Honda CVCC plastic POS car better than the newer Civic. So what is it? Is it because it is not made in the USA? Then call yourself a patriot, but what does that have to do with quality. I do not think anybody on here is stupid enough to think that a hand-built amplifier is better than an amp built a multi-million dollar insertion machine that tests every single part for tolerance before it is inserted, right? (jk, I know there are alot of people that have the stupid thought because they do not know any better.) It is like comparing a precision Ferrari to the Flintstone mobile! How many people would rather cruise that that a Ferrari. (Dumbasses need not answer that question...) What about parts? Are American parts better than Chinese parts? Trick question because there are not American parts! Ok, a few. But if you want some brainless chair monkey to hand-build your amplifier with Chinese parts just so that it is made int he USA, then you're a moron. Now, could America build amps better? Possibly. Use the same machines, test every single amplifier, start giving birth certificates again. Oh wait! I forgot, nobody will pay the price tag! So get off your idiotic bandwagon of OS amps are better, until you have a legit reason why! I would kill to have some Art or Pro-Mos amps, but that does not make them have better engineering then 15-20 year newer amps. That just means that I love them for nostalgic reasons. 

I wish I could take everybody that has a foolish, uneducated opinion, throw them all on a cargo ship, ship their asses to China, and make them learn something. Then when they all get back, they go to another forum where the rest of the morons are. I swore off forums because of all the primadonna know-it-alls. But I like it here, for the most part. 

Can't we just have a qualification test to be a member? lol


----------



## Grizz Archer

cajunner said:


> Gee, Grizz, tell us how you really feel...
> 
> 
> brainless chair monkeys?
> 
> I think there's a near equivalent debate on ham radios, where the old through hole, large part, easy to solder on and swap bits- radios from countries where the parts were originally shipped in, are favored over the SMT (Ranger) radios that were tested and proven to be more reliable but did not perform like a big radio would.
> 
> Now, that might not be exactly accurate, but seeing an old Rockford when it came out with that SMT board, versus something like an old US Amps, people had a similar reaction to the Rockfords, and I think it exists in some pernicious form to this day.
> 
> The old school amp is not just nostalgia, it's built with parts that technicians like to work on, and if a technician happens to talk to you about your repaired amp and says "man I am glad you use ____ amps, these guys are easy to fix and they are built to last, not like those little bitty parts in SMT amps I get in, and have headaches fixing," you are going to walk away feeling like you have something good in the old school amp you're running.
> 
> 
> in reality, the amp fix-it guy might just want you to keep bringing your old ass amp to him for fixing in the future, but that's not what you're going to get out of him.
> 
> 
> I also have been told that SMT devices have greater variance in the tolerances in comparison to their through-hole counterparts, and I guess it also extends to everything built without chips of any kind, that mentality is discrete. Newer amps are subject to Chinese production runs using inferior quality parts, then when these buildhouses get caught substituting the real TI or Nichicon for generic/counterfeits, there is no "recall" on amps, you just get another run of better quality amps later, because someone decided to check quality control.
> 
> I don't believe the efficiency is higher in old school, I think the same circuit designed with SMT parts is going to win on resistance losses, and that's where the new school is really coming to the game prepared. Class D is probably harder to do without insertion machines, just because there is a bigger value on tolerances in a circuit being matched than in the older AB designs.
> 
> anyway, I don't know why I prefer my old school current/space hogs over some of the nano bits, I guess there's a residual assumption that a surfboard amp is "built" and the nano stuff is "puny" haha...


RF vs US Amps - Very true. But why do parts have to be big and bulky? All these uneducated opinions better be coming from guys with OS computers the size of closets if they do not SMT! lol

I am not a technician. And int he last 29 years since I acquired the obsession, I blew one amp. Wait, I lied. When I in Greece, I use an old MTX 2300 as a line driver to 9 more 2300 amps. The 72v line in killed one of the amps instantly... lol But other than that I have never blown an amp. What we need is brain technicians that can teach the boneheads to stop blowing amplifiers. And if the old ones keep blowing, then I why would I want to run it? Just because it is easier to fix? 

THT or SMT - part tolerance is controlled by the insertion machine. China can make a part just as good as anybody else. HOWEVER, they need to be supervised and have quality control in place. If they do not, then that is because the manufacturer (or shall we call them "label-lickers" since almost nothing is still made in the states) will nopt pay for it, meaning that consumers will not pay for it. We do not need to go over how the consumer created this market, not the manufacturers, again...

Hey man, I am not disagreeing with you. There are a couple of guys on this forum that better never give me their addresses, or I will go their for a visit and get them drunk and talk them into selling me some of their Art or Pro Mos amps. I would take these over anything at PPI now. Art for performance and nostalgia. Pro Mos for performance and there is nothing else like it. I would kil to build another SQ car with a pair of Pro Mos 12s. Oh yeah, roll in to the lanes with 50wrms! That would be dope!


----------



## rexroadj

AlfaNewB said:


> LMAO...ive said enough... you dont like my opinion, and i dont really give a **** about yours... to me its no longer the real soundstream.. and thats it..


Couldnt agree more! You have said WAY more then enough! 
So just to be clear....yet again.....your jacking your opinion all over everyones screen without the ability to explain it or justify it? Yeah......FAIL!
Pathetic! 




Old repairs......I'll admit...if you had one from the start and it died many years later? Sure...could be worth fixing! I've done it! Someone likely paid a small fortune for that said amp originally (ppi, orion, ss, etc....) so why not pound a few more $s into it. Not a bad thing? We all have choices!
I have dealt with those techs....just as you said cajunner "these are easier to work on".....well, great! Now comparing those to new? Two things. I think people seem to think that because its not as easy to fix somehow they will fail quicker? I have seen zero evidence of new stuff not being as durable as old. In fact I would LOVE to see the fail rate of amps then to now based on some of the brands that were alive then and now....especially the ones that were "bought out". I think we can all agree power/features per watt per dollar the new stuff crushes the old! Because of the dollar per watt discrepancy between new and old, your also left with a decision you probably wouldnt have had before........is it worth fixing or just getting another brand new one (assuming its something that doesnt happen right away) and does that make it bad? (I dont think so?)


----------



## JAX

there are good amps out there that will work just fine. 

from a technician standpoint my tech tells me the biggest issue is the quality of the parts used not the amp itself. the designs may be ok but its the parts that could be better than eventually lead to the failure of the amp.


I think the only negative on the new Refs was the size. other than that , that is probably the closest thing I have seen to the old stuff. 

whatever entry grade amps from SS that the poster above used is not really fair example of what SS is capable of today.


----------



## Grizz Archer

JAX said:


> there are good amps out there that will work just fine.
> 
> from a technician standpoint my tech tells me the biggest issue is the quality of the parts used not the amp itself. the designs may be ok but its the parts that could be better than eventually lead to the failure of the amp.
> 
> 
> I think the only negative on the new Refs was the size. other than that , that is probably the closest thing I have seen to the old stuff.
> 
> whatever entry grade amps from SS that the poster above used is not really fair example of what SS is capable of today.


See what I mean? No way to win. If they made them smaller, people would complain that they do not use beefy enough parts and they are a far deviation of the originals. If they made them smaller, people would complain and want them "as good as they used to be". I guess that is what forums are for - complaining...


----------



## rexroadj

JAX said:


> there are good amps out there that will work just fine.
> 
> from a technician standpoint my tech tells me the biggest issue is the quality of the parts used not the amp itself. the designs may be ok but its the parts that could be better than eventually lead to the failure of the amp.
> 
> 
> I think the only negative on the new Refs was the size. other than that , that is probably the closest thing I have seen to the old stuff.
> 
> whatever entry grade amps from SS that the poster above used is not really fair example of what SS is capable of today.


The offerings below the Refs fit the market thats why there there and VERY successful. A point this forum often forgets. Were maybe 1% of the real market! 

Well for people who ass ream over the old I would say the size of the new Ref's are spot on!  I wish personally they were smaller because I could use them! 

I still have not seen or heard any proof about new parts, being lesser if someone wishes to call it that, although the days of using over kill parts for the sake of nothing really (does it make the amp better per say? NO....arc welding, .25ohm loads,etc....no need!) is gone because the added cost for zero gain came to light via budgets. Again....lets see some proof, #s and %s showing failure being higher then old....but its the opposite! not some tech's "word", A. thats income, and B. they are just as subject to nostalgia as anyone else..... I know your tech is great and respect his knowledge of amps.....thats where it ends for me though. Business, production, etc.....are TOTALLY different! Thats why there are people like him for that and people like me for the other (or other people of course....I do have a background in business and over seas production). 

Maybe Grizz has access to #s......just from contacts? I'm sure he could get fail rates still from Epsilon and probably knows enough people to get rates from older lines/companies...... Obviously this groundwork has been done before and thats why they do it how they do it now! Think about it?


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> The offerings below the Refs fit the market thats why there there and VERY successful. A point this forum often forgets. Were maybe 1% of the real market!
> 
> Well for people who ass ream over the old I would say the size of the new Ref's are spot on!  I wish personally they were smaller because I could use them!
> 
> I still have not seen or heard any proof about new parts, being lesser if someone wishes to call it that, although the days of using over kill parts for the sake of nothing really (does it make the amp better per say? NO....arc welding, .25ohm loads,etc....no need!) is gone because the added cost for zero gain came to light via budgets. Again....lets see some proof, #s and %s showing failure being higher then old....but its the opposite! not some tech's "word", A. thats income, and B. they are just as subject to nostalgia as anyone else..... I know your tech is great and respect his knowledge of amps.....thats where it ends for me though. Business, production, etc.....are TOTALLY different! Thats why there are people like him for that and people like me for the other (or other people of course....I do have a background in business and over seas production).
> 
> Maybe Grizz has access to #s......just from contacts? I'm sure he could get fail rates still from Epsilon and probably knows enough people to get rates from older lines/companies...... Obviously this groundwork has been done before and thats why they do it how they do it now! Think about it?


Yeah man, you nailed it. But I'd rather stick my dick in a meat grinder that talk about Epsilon. Some of their amps have fairly low failure rates and some have, higher failure rates, as to be expected. And while you would expect the rate to go down with higher cost, not always so. Let's just say that one of their cheapest series comes out of the same factory as the Reference. So even that entry level amp is pretty damn reliable. 

On the flip side, I have been to factories and seen some of the favorite brands running right alongside some **** amps. If brand have a big name, they can make **** and et away with it. You'd think not, but I see it all the "prime" time... 

But hey, as China keeps raising prices, the possibility of making dinosaur amps grows...


----------



## tnbubba

ok skool

I can take an old zapcoC2K, HK CA, old Orion, PG, etc and put the equivalent parts n caps n them as today and they sound as good or better.. they had sound design, super over built to last and high quality parts( for their time)..
simple thing is, QC has gotten much better and cost effective.. but that does not mean the internal quality of the parts has!! big difference. biggest thing is by gawd we better have learned to make it better in 20-30 yrs, and board layout better have have improved with cosmetics and functionality.

were the boards designs as good? no some where, was the quality control as good< bet not..(check the failure percentages) but old skool they were built like a freakin tanks( to overcome some of the QC short comings) and could take tons of screwups(abuse) and yea if you are running 2 ohm speakers you do need and arc welder(lol) OH and the single biggest reason for old stuff < IMO> they were BUILT IN THE USA>>

with todays compact designs.. the board layout is as important as the components and the circuit design, and most don't get that right although the Chinese are learning and getting better.


----------



## JAX

Grizz Archer said:


> See what I mean? No way to win. If they made them smaller, people would complain that they do not use beefy enough parts and they are a far deviation of the originals. If they made them smaller, people would complain and want them "as good as they used to be". I guess that is what forums are for - complaining...



I wasnt complaining, I liked the 4 channel I tried out. but for my space I needed smaller if I was going to fit 2 amps in there. 

I wasnt dissing the amps, I like them.


----------



## JAX

rexroadj said:


> I still have not seen or heard any proof about new parts, being lesser if someone wishes to call it that, although the days of using over kill parts for the sake of nothing really (does it make the amp better per say? NO....arc welding, .25ohm loads,etc....no need!) is gone because the added cost for zero gain came to light via budgets. Again....lets see some proof, #s and %s showing failure being higher then old....but its the opposite! not some tech's "word", A. thats income, and B. they are just as subject to nostalgia as anyone else..... I know your tech is great and respect his knowledge of amps.....thats where it ends for me though. Business, production, etc.....are TOTALLY different! Thats why there are people like him for that and people like me for the other (or other people of course....I do have a background in business and over seas production).
> 
> Maybe Grizz has access to #s......just from contacts? I'm sure he could get fail rates still from Epsilon and probably knows enough people to get rates from older lines/companies...... Obviously this groundwork has been done before and thats why they do it how they do it now! Think about it?




I didnt say the new parts were lesser but there is a difference in parts availible. 

higher temp caps could be used a lot of times. things like that matter over time.

its not that old parts were better, its that some amps were made with better parts to start with. 

my statement is from talking to my tech who repairs thousands of amps a year. if anyone can see weakness in an amp its him. he is not just a repair man.


----------



## Grizz Archer

tnbubba said:


> ok skool
> 
> I can take an old zapcoC2K, HK CA, old Orion, PG, etc and put the equivalent parts n caps n them as today and they sound as good or better.. they had sound design, super over built to last and high quality parts( for their time)..
> simple thing is, QC has gotten much better and cost effective.. but that does not mean the internal quality of the parts has!! big difference. biggest thing is by gawd we better have learned to make it better in 20-30 yrs, and board layout better have have improved with cosmetics and functionality.
> 
> were the boards designs as good? no some where, was the quality control as good< bet not..(check the failure percentages) but old skool they were built like a freakin tanks( to overcome some of the QC short comings) and could take tons of screwups(abuse) and yea if you are running 2 ohm speakers you do need and arc welder(lol) OH and the single biggest reason for old stuff < IMO> they were BUILT IN THE USA>>
> 
> with todays compact designs.. the board layout is as important as the components and the circuit design, and most don't get that right although the Chinese are learning and getting better.


I am all about built in the usa, but other than people and a few cars, those days are gone. Two of my frieds were talking one of them said that we lost an entire generation of American engineering, to Asia, and that is nearly impossible to recover from. I believe that to be true and scary. There are not make young engineers that have the experience. And in this time frame, alot of the great engineers retired.

This is where your last sentence scares me. Yes they are getting better. But if the company has and engineer, they can make China do whatever they want. But if they do not have an engineer, they are solely relying on the Chinese engineering, not just manufacturing. I do have a problem with this, especially since everybody ride a goat or tractor. How can they be truly great at something they do not understand and use? There are some good guys there, but this is what set apart a great American engineered product from a ??? engineered Chinese product. And I am not talking about just amps. Obviously Iam a speaker guy. You all would **** if you knew about this whole topic on the speaker side! I will divulge details. But when you call one of the respected OS brands and the tech and speaker guys cannot even deign a box properly because they do not understand parameters/tolerances/ideals, have never competed, have no acoustic background, etc, then you truly are buying off-the-shelf Chinese engineered and built stuff. It may look cool, but when the brand and factory both do not know how to use it, that becomes a major problem.

Fortunately I can see right through that junk, but when it comes to amplifiers, I have some brilliant friends in the industry that can answer some questions for me when needed...

For undisclosed reasons, I am smiling from ear to ear right now...


----------



## Grizz Archer

JAX said:


> I wasnt complaining, I liked the 4 channel I tried out. but for my space I needed smaller if I was going to fit 2 amps in there.
> 
> I wasnt dissing the amps, I like them.


LOL I know man, I was not picking on you bro. I just used your email to make a statement. Sorry man, if that seemed like it was directly right at you. It was directly at morons, not you...


----------



## rexroadj

tnbubba said:


> ok skool
> but old skool they were built like a freakin tanks( to overcome some of the QC short comings) and could take tons of screwups(abuse) and yea if you are running 2 ohm speakers you do need and arc welder(lol) OH and the single biggest reason for old stuff < IMO> they were BUILT IN THE USA>>


I think you were missing my point.....
Perhaps someone can clarify this for me as I am not a tech......BUT, the parts used in old school were....lets just say "over done" for no real purpose. Yes, that meant you could weld with some of them....so what? How does that equal anything other then it could do it. Does that equal some sort of audible magic? No, of course not! Yes you could run lower ohm loads (seriously...what cant run 2ohms...hell BA and RF still (just to name a couple quick ones) have amps 1ohm stereo/2ohm bridged capable amps) but thats just not really a marketable path anymore. Its just not needed, wanted, cared about anymore. Does that make the new amps not as "good"? Dont see how? 

So the "Higher" grade parts used before really didnt do anything to make the amp better as far as when it came to amplifying a signal did it? Maybe I'm wrong here....I would love someone to be able to actually PROVE this one way or another. Its how I understood it as it was explained to me by a rather well known engineer before. 
New products using parts that may not be as "higher end" or tolorant to welding but they are equivalent to what is needed for audio purposes! Thus keeping costs controlled as well. Its a simple concept really.......something that can be related to lots of things that go on in all our daily lives if you think about it. 
I think all of that is where people have a hard time grasping that old doesnt equal better because of overbuilt parts......once you realize that unless your welding......your not using them beyond the adequate ones used in most cases now. Also I'm not sold that those said "better" parts are any less likely to fail......QC is the key with all of that imo....and no one can justifiable argue that Manufacturing plants in other parts of the world dont KILL the "hand made" theme! Remember to error is human  

Hopefully that shows my point a little better......


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> I am all about built in the usa, but other than people and a few cars, those days are gone. Two of my frieds were talking one of them said that we lost an entire generation of American engineering, to Asia, and that is nearly impossible to recover from. I believe that to be true and scary. There are not make young engineers that have the experience.


So true! BUT, you cant have a revolution without all being lost first. Hopefully it will fester itself into something greater! Thats how this country was built and how its blood flows (or it did....gotta have faith it can happen still I guess?)


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> So true! BUT, you cant have a revolution without all being lost first. Hopefully it will fester itself into something greater! Thats how this country was built and how its blood flows (or it did....gotta have faith it can happen still I guess?)


Are you saying that this industry is going down the toilet and dying, and that a new revolution will be born in car audio like the late 80s and early 90s when everybody competed to make the best products and people were happy to pay the price?!?!?! (sarcastic laugh...)

Funny, that never happened in Europe. They still take have pride, make it in their own factories for the most part, and the industry is actually growing in some European countries, like Germany. And you thought I was just here for the beer...


----------



## rexroadj

JAX said:


> I didnt say the new parts were lesser but there is a difference in parts availible.
> higher temp caps could be used a lot of times. things like that matter over time.
> its not that old parts were better, its that some amps were made with better parts to start with.
> my statement is from talking to my tech who repairs thousands of amps a year. if anyone can see weakness in an amp its him. he is not just a repair man.


Maybe you didnt mean that parts are "lesser" but MANY do...was speaking generally off your words....sorry.

What did those "better" parts do better then ones used now that are by those words must mean not as good? How so? Thats the question here. 
What do those so called weaknesses equal as far as amplification? Can anything be replaced with "better" pieces??? find me a case where that isnt true......But in most all of those cases I can probably see why there not practical or even remotely necessary for equal situations or how the "upgraded" quality will never even come into play...but its nice to sleep at night and pat yourself on the back knowing you have it.....isnt that what it really comes down to?

And again....someone tell me how these new amps with lesser parts are not going to or not lasting as long as the old. Where is that proof? I have never seen or heard anyone that can come up with that...people love to say it but no one can show it? 

Besides what do you care? You havent kept an amp over a week since your Bob Dole for President bumper sticker! Lol!!!!!!! hahahaha.....love ya buddy


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> Are you saying that this industry is going down the toilet and dying, and that a new revolution will be born in car audio like the late 80s and early 90s when everybody competed to make the best products and people were happy to pay the price?!?!?! (sarcastic laugh...)
> 
> Funny, that never happened in Europe. They still take have pride, make it in their own factories for the most part, and the industry is actually growing in some European countries, like Germany. And you thought I was just here for the beer...


Not saying it will happen.....Hoping it will happen (some have taken the challenge and run with it already though)..... Hoping that a generation stands up to the competitive call and has that chip on there shoulder to be the best! 

No, it didnt happen in Europe? Lucky them! Kinda fits there mentality as a whole........which is good. Stay focused and steady.....and when you need a break drink beer  Repeat


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Besides what do you care? You havent kept an amp over a week since your Bob Dole for President bumper sticker! Lol!!!!!!! hahahaha.....love ya buddy


LOL, but that brings up a point. I am always swapping gear. Always trying new things. Rarely have I ever used a product for over a year. When it comes to electronics, I like the new stuff. New phone, new tv, and new car audio. Why would I go after a, iPhone 1, CRT TV, or 20 year old amp?


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> LOL, but that brings up a point. I am always swapping gear. Always trying new things. Rarely have I ever used a product for over a year. When it comes to electronics, I like the new stuff. New phone, new tv, and new car audio. Why would I go after a, iPhone 1, CRT TV, or 20 year old amp?


The same reason people collect original nintendo's and games  What we have to fight with everyday with audio...........Nostalgia........ I still love to see a lot of old stuff........Kicker solo's, old alpine, etc......... LOVE THEM! Brings back so many great memories..... but it wouldnt make cents to spend dollars on it for practical uses today. Its just fun imo. Not knocking anyone choosing to refurb old stuff and use it today (like Bret) so cool to see and probably really cool to do! Just dont tell me or try to sell me that its "better" 
Its audio....should be about the music and **** eating grins/goose bumps.......right? Thats what it is to me anyway.


----------



## JAX

rexroadj said:


> Besides what do you care? You havent kept an amp over a week since your Bob Dole for President bumper sticker! Lol!!!!!!! hahahaha.....love ya buddy



lol, your funny guy J


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Not saying it will happen.....Hoping it will happen (some have taken the challenge and run with it already though)..... Hoping that a generation stands up to the competitive call and has that chip on there shoulder to be the best!
> 
> No, it didnt happen in Europe? Lucky them! Kinda fits there mentality as a whole........which is good. Stay focused and steady.....and when you need a break drink beer  Repeat


A request cam up for some numbers earlier. Tell you what I would like to see... 

American companies are driven to make a bunch of entry level stuff, because y'all will not pay for the good stuff anymore. The number I want to see is how much marketshare Focal, Hertz, Mosconi, Gladen, Morel, and other European brands are earning! They get bigger every year in the states. But the USA brands get smaller over here. If the American brands were to get to the point that they were more-or-less trading companies with China, then they could kill themselves off, leaving the enthusiast chasing the European brands even more so. Sure, they make some lower cost gear, but they will not sacrifice quality or let King Kong Ding Dong engineer their products for them, and then just stick their name on it. 

Ya know what the hardest part is about choosing a brand from over here? Just that! Choosing, because there are so many badass products...


----------



## rexroadj

Just trying to have some fun


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> Ya know what the hardest part is about choosing a brand from over here? Just that! Choosing, because there are so many badass products...


Roger that!


----------



## JAX

Grizz Archer said:


> A request cam up for some numbers earlier. Tell you what I would like to see...
> 
> American companies are driven to make a bunch of entry level stuff, because y'all will not pay for the good stuff anymore. The number I want to see is how much marketshare Focal, Hertz, Mosconi, Gladen, Morel, and other European brands are earning! They get bigger every year in the states. But the USA brands get smaller over here. If the American brands were to get to the point that they were more-or-less trading companies with China, then they could kill themselves off, leaving the enthusiast chasing the European brands even more so. Sure, they make some lower cost gear, but they will not sacrifice quality or let King Kong Ding Dong engineer their products for them, and then just stick their name on it.
> 
> Ya know what the hardest part is about choosing a brand from over here? Just that! Choosing, because there are so many badass products...



truly sad that there is nothing exciting here anymore.


----------



## rexroadj

JAX said:


> truly sad that there is nothing exciting here anymore.


Gotta have some faith! We as a country have some HUGE issues to deal with. Sometimes when you have huge issues going on, its hard to focus on things...simple or otherwise. Maybe if and when we get some things back on track we can focus on being competitive in things again (across the board). If the country were a person.....they would be extremely clinically depressed! Just needs to break the cycle. I believe that someday things will change. Just not sure were at our rock bottom yet to be able to flip the switch (sad to think I know!)

Maybe I'm just a naive optimist? Feel like its a better way to think...


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Gotta have some faith! We as a country have some HUGE issues to deal with. Sometimes when you have huge issues going on, its hard to focus on things...simple or otherwise. Maybe if and when we get some things back on track we can focus on being competitive in things again (across the board). If the country were a person.....they would be extremely clinically depressed! Just needs to break the cycle. I believe that someday things will change. Just not sure were at our rock bottom yet to be able to flip the switch (sad to think I know!)
> 
> Maybe I'm just a naive optimist? Feel like its a better way to think...


Stay optimistic! One of the things I am involved with now is a badass protective phone case, strictly for the Samsung Galaxy S3 and iPhone 4/5. And it is made right there in the USA. Smokes Otterbox and anything else for less money. When I pitch it to people and throw my phone of the window over 100 feet up, they think I am insane. And when they find out it is milled from a solid piece of billet aluminum, IN THE FREAKING USA, they want exclusivity! Sure, could make it in China for a couple bucks less, but that takes one of the key features out of the sale...


----------



## rexroadj

Hey Grizz.......I gots a question for ya.....I think your just the guy for it (sorry to the thread....sorry, zero relevance but the info may be helpful to anyone reading anyway?)

So I'm looking to put together a 3way setup eventually in my rover..... I have narrowed it down (mainly due to price) on a setup consisting of older drivers that are being custom made to my order (original parts but were not constructed). They are great and have used them in the past......
What I am curious of is the cones mystique? They are of DR Kurt Muller's design. Being a speaker engineer and now being in Germany as well as your blunt honesty...I was hoping you of all people could chime in on what was if anything great about them? 
I see JL using them now too.........Just curious?


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> Stay optimistic! One of the things I am involved with now is a badass protective phone case, strictly for the Samsung Galaxy S3 and iPhone 4/5. And it is made right there in the USA. Smokes Otterbox and anything else for less money. When I pitch it to people and throw my phone of the window over 100 feet up, they think I am insane. And when they find out it is milled from a solid piece of billet aluminum, IN THE FREAKING USA, they want exclusivity! Sure, could make it in China for a couple bucks less, but that takes one of the key features out of the sale...


Oh yeah? Just bought an otterbox for my S3......Its fine, but HUGE! Pretty cool though! Good luck with it!


----------



## Darth SQ

rexroadj said:


> Gotta have some faith! We as a country have some HUGE issues to deal with. Sometimes when you have huge issues going on, its hard to focus on things...simple or otherwise. Maybe if and when we get some things back on track we can focus on being competitive in things again (across the board). If the country were a person.....they would be extremely clinically depressed! Just needs to break the cycle. I believe that someday things will change. *Just not sure were at our rock bottom yet to be able to flip the switch (sad to think I know!)*
> Maybe I'm just a naive optimist? Feel like its a better way to think...


Rock bottom is when all this Chinese gear goes in our brand new Chinese car which have hit the American market about two years ago.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rexroadj

So does buying all that china stuff go towards paying off our tab to them? Or does it just continue to put us in an even bigger hole? 

Thats kinda what I was trying to get at originally with "rock bottom"


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Hey Grizz.......I gots a question for ya.....I think your just the guy for it (sorry to the thread....sorry, zero relevance but the info may be helpful to anyone reading anyway?)
> 
> So I'm looking to put together a 3way setup eventually in my rover..... I have narrowed it down (mainly due to price) on a setup consisting of older drivers that are being custom made to my order (original parts but were not constructed). They are great and have used them in the past......
> What I am curious of is the cones mystique? They are of DR Kurt Muller's design. Being a speaker engineer and now being in Germany as well as your blunt honesty...I was hoping you of all people could chime in on what was if anything great about them?
> I see JL using them now too.........Just curious?


Reeeeeaaaaaaallllly? Well, I cannot comment on the drivers because I only know what the cone is, but those cones are some of the finest available. But it doe snot make a drivers,they are just typically found in great drivers. Too hard to describe here, but there are radical characteristics in different cone shapes. Flat cones suck ass and are joke that PPI did in the past along with other companies. Notice everybody got smart and quit doing that ****? If the cone in "conical" that means the shape is flat from the coil hole to the edge. A curvelinear cone is arched and my personal favorite. Man, there is just too much to talk about with dispersion/lobing patterns, strength, etc. Can you get me parameters on the driver if you do not want to talk about it? Out of curiosity, what drives you to these old drivers, versus new drivers with modern technology? Just curious...


----------



## Darth SQ

rexroadj said:


> The same reason people collect original nintendo's and games  What we have to fight with everyday with audio...........Nostalgia........ I still love to see a lot of old stuff........Kicker solo's, old alpine, etc......... LOVE THEM! Brings back so many great memories..... but it wouldnt make cents to spend dollars on it for practical uses today. Its just fun imo. * Not knocking anyone choosing to refurb old stuff and use it today (like Bret) so cool to see and probably really cool to do!* Just dont tell me or try to sell me that its "better"
> Its audio....should be about the music and **** eating grins/goose bumps.......right? Thats what it is to me anyway.


Don't bring me into this; I'm a masochist. 
Three years, 12 amps later, and a wad of hard earned cash spent to buy the amps and then the recon work that in total could have put an engine in my 67 Mustang.....rediculous. :mean::mean::mean:

However, I can say they are better?
Yes, but for different reasons.
They are better than when they were new.
They're better than original because of the improvements made over time in the industry such as better caps and switching from mica boards to Kapton tape.
What may actually make them sound better is all my tech's fine tuning and making sure everything stays well within tolerances and keeping it all closely balanced between the channels and components.
That step alone might make the difference.
Do they sound better?
I don't know because I haven't heard them yet. :shrug:
They're sure pretty though.
Thx CHY!


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Oh yeah? Just bought an otterbox for my S3......Its fine, but HUGE! Pretty cool though! Good luck with it!


We'll each put in $500. I'll drop yours from 10 stories and you can drop mine from 20 stories. If my phone breaks, I'll give you $500 and a case. If your phone breaks, I'll still give you a case, but I'll keep your $500. Deal?! Or you can go 30 stories and we'll up the wager to $800. lol We want to make another video by throwing out of a plane while skydiving!


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Rock bottom is when all this Chinese gear goes in our brand new Chinese car which have hit the American market about two years ago.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Oh yeah? Is Cherry already over here? Did not see a dealer before I left. Ya never know though. The Koreans sent over some pathetic crap and look at them today. They have offices next to a ton of international airports. They have a better warranty than the Japanese, etc. Kickin' ass and taking names. I take one in a split second over a Honda...


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> We'll each put in $500. I'll drop yours from 10 stories and you can drop mine from 20 stories. If my phone breaks, I'll give you $500 and a case. If your phone breaks, I'll still give you a case, but I'll keep your $500. Deal?! Or you can go 30 stories and we'll up the wager to $800. lol We want to make another video by throwing out of a plane while skydiving!


I always want to throw my phone LOL!!!! Your bet implies that I think the otter is better.....I'm gonna plead ignorance here......I bought my phone and asked the guy to show me all the covers. Went over what I wanted and needed for protection from my daily life and thats what he came up with (took out the screen cover that came with it and used a better one).... How about you send me a cover and I'll let you toss it from a plane  (but get me a new one if your cover wears my phone as the helmet


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> Reeeeeaaaaaaallllly? Well, I cannot comment on the drivers because I only know what the cone is, but those cones are some of the finest available. But it doe snot make a drivers,they are just typically found in great drivers. Too hard to describe here, but there are radical characteristics in different cone shapes. Flat cones suck ass and are joke that PPI did in the past along with other companies. Notice everybody got smart and quit doing that ****? If the cone in "conical" that means the shape is flat from the coil hole to the edge. A curvelinear cone is arched and my personal favorite. Man, there is just too much to talk about with dispersion/lobing patterns, strength, etc. Can you get me parameters on the driver if you do not want to talk about it? Out of curiosity, what drives you to these old drivers, versus new drivers with modern technology? Just curious...


Driver specs:
Oxygen Free Copper voice coil wire, Nomax Suspension and Stifflite III Cones. These cone material are from Germany DR Kurt Muller. The Stifflite III woofer cone, Mineral enhanced copolymer which is injection moulded to the ideal balance of mass to stiffness

O/D # ( 6.1/2" ) Round. ( 165mm )
Screw Hole # ( 5.3/4" ) Across. ( 148mm )
Overall High # ( 2.3/4" )( 70mm)
Magnet size # ( 3.1/2" ) width. ( 90mm )
Mounting Depth # ( 2.1/2" ) ( 65mm )
Mounting Hold # ( 4.15/16" ) Across ( 125mm )
Cone Material # Stifflite III
Suspension Spider # Nomax , Torn Resistant. 
Voice Coil # Oxygen Free Copper Wires.
Impedance # ( 4ohm )
Powers # 100 watts.
Sensitivity # 91dB.
Frequency Response # 40Hz to 8000Hz.

Reason? Simply cost and familiarity.....Nothing more. Used the exact setup a long time ago and it was my top 3 setups......Now the price being so low? Me being almost homeless? Just works imo. An amazing 3way driver setup for under $400? I dont think I can get the same performance for less to be honest. And I have dealt with and know the engineer from the past and trust him very much as far as putting these together for me......

But I'm always open to suggestions and offers


----------



## subwoofery

Grizz... Always wonder how good and reliable were the new (now defunct) Soundstream Human Reign Crypt 2 and 4 channels? 
Epsilon stated that the board layout was exactly the same as the old one just but with today's parts... Correct? 

The old school Human Reign were the only soundstream I actually drooled over 

Thank you, 
Kelvin


----------



## Grizz Archer

Without parameters, how do you know the sensitivity and frequency response? Everything else sound all good. But it is the whole combination of the cone, coil, former motor, suspension etc that will make it...


----------



## Grizz Archer

subwoofery said:


> Grizz... Always wonder how good and reliable were the new (now defunct) Soundstream Human Reign Crypt 2 and 4 channels?
> Epsilon stated that the board layout was exactly the same as the old one just but with today's parts... Correct?
> 
> The old school Human Reign were the only soundstream I actually drooled over
> 
> Thank you,
> Kelvin


The New Human reigns wer said to be identical on the inside,. but I had heard from a tech that they were different. I am not 100% sure. But I can tell you this,,, Media Markt by me has a pair of the original Human Reigns on their display. I did not know they ever even carried the brand. But there is a pair sitting there and they have no idea what they are...


----------



## rexroadj

I was told (not by you Grizz) that the boards were left over from the originals....had ordered a ton of them but the cost of the chassis was absurd and sales werent exactly crazy so they made a cheaper (although I think MUCH better chassis for them) and resold them at a much more realistic $......any truth to that? I could see that happening and then sales being "ok" and then having to remake them for more orders? Dont know though......


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> Without parameters, how do you know the sensitivity and frequency response? Everything else sound all good. But it is the whole combination of the cone, coil, former motor, suspension etc that will make it...


Ummm yeah....no clue, they are hybrids of the old 346, 344IS from A/D/S/ mixed with some PX parts too.......


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> I was told (not by you Grizz) that the boards were left over from the originals....had ordered a ton of them but the cost of the chassis was absurd and sales werent exactly crazy so they made a cheaper (although I think MUCH better chassis for them) and resold them at a much more realistic $......any truth to that? I could see that happening and then sales being "ok" and then having to remake them for more orders? Dont know though......


The left over boards parts is false. Few people, even today, actually understand what that amp was all about. The hand painted all aluminum shrouds did cost a fortune. The second version, UNLEASHED, were 1/2 the price, but still did not sell fast. It was not until they realized that high end doe snot make money, that they finally gave up. Of course then everybody wanted to buy them... Too bad because there has been nothing even partially similar. But I would have cancelled them too based on sales. But to be honest, I feel they royally screwed up on the second chassis. Could have been light year better. Oh well...


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Ummm yeah....no clue, they are hybrids of the old 346, 344IS from A/D/S/ mixed with some PX parts too.......


Oh, I see... So you are Dr. Frankenstein now? lol Well, you can take all the best parts, put them all together and end up with a hunk of crap. Hopefully, this guy FEA'ed them and will create something badass for you bro...


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> The left over boards parts is false. Few people, even today, actually understand what that amp was all about. The hand painted all aluminum shrouds did cost a fortune. The second version, UNLEASHED, were 1/2 the price, but still did not sell fast. It was not until they realized that high end doe snot make money, that they finally gave up. Of course then everybody wanted to buy them... Too bad because there has been nothing even partially similar. But I would have cancelled them too based on sales. But to be honest, I feel they royally screwed up on the second chassis. Could have been light year better. Oh well...


Huh......No ****? Man I was given that info a while ago from a rep.....Oh well....I know the unleashed didnt sell they they were liquidated for like $500....(man what a frigging deal!!!!)
Typical now!
I'm sure the chassis could have been better....I liked the simple black over the whole "han solo" thing! It was a little much and pretty dumb in my opinion only because I felt like it really narrowed your market....Imo of course....from a marketing standpoint it was a HUGE risk (that didnt go well)


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Huh......No ****? Man I was given that info a while ago from a rep.....Oh well....I know the unleashed didnt sell they they were liquidated for like $500....(man what a frigging deal!!!!)
> Typical now!
> I'm sure the chassis could have been better....I liked the simple black over the whole "han solo" thing! It was a little much and pretty dumb in my opinion only because I felt like it really narrowed your market....Imo of course....from a marketing standpoint it was a HUGE risk (that didnt go well)


1. A rep is a sales person and his tactic obviously impressed you. Good liar, good rep...

2. At 70% off retail, I could only sell a few. But once they were gone, I could have sold a bunch at double the price. Figures...

3. They had another design that looked like an iPod that was pretty nice. They I gave them my suggestion and they blew it off. So they came out with a freaking air conditioner and a smashed aluminum can that looked a little like the Human Reign guy...

Had people knows what that amp was, people would have bought it and disregarded the looks. Too late...

The other problem was that you needed to hook up to an Edison plant to power it. Do not ask me to explain, I'm tired. Ha, ask them and see what they say, besides it is not efficient, and then a bunch of uneducated rubbish...


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> 1. A rep is a sales person and his tactic obviously impressed you. Good liar, good rep...
> 
> 2. At 70% off retail, I could only sell a few. But once they were gone, I could have sold a bunch at double the price. Figures...
> 
> 3. They had another design that looked like an iPod that was pretty nice. They I gave them my suggestion and they blew it off. So they came out with a freaking air conditioner and a smashed aluminum can that looked a little like the Human Reign guy...
> 
> Had people knows what that amp was, people would have bought it and disregarded the looks. Too late...
> 
> The other problem was that you needed to hook up to an Edison plant to power it. Do not ask me to explain, I'm tired. Ha, ask them and see what they say, besides it is not efficient, and then a bunch of uneducated rubbish...


sales rep/liar.....harsh man....harsh! (but I know what you mean

I actually went from the refs to the HRU and back to the refs.....I actually liked the 4.920 better then the hru. felt it had more gusto? Call me crazy?


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> sales rep/liar.....harsh man....harsh! (but I know what you mean
> 
> I actually went from the refs to the HRU and back to the refs.....I actually liked the 4.920 better then the hru. felt it had more gusto? Call me crazy?


If you were in a dying industry, and you went to visit a customer, would you sell him a turd for $100, or be honest and tell him it is a turd? That is why I was never in sales... lol

You're not crazy, but I'll bet you were starving for batteries. The bias on those amps made them probably the least efficient amps on the market...


----------



## rexroadj

Never had an issue with that (amps).....stock setup and optima in the ram was no problem 

And actually I am in that position all the time....what separates the men from the boys and keeping successful for many years is the ability to sell them ****, tell them its ****....but make them want that **** like its filet! And a lot of it! Thats what a real sales person or marketing specialist does! Doesnt matter what it is.....if your good you can sell it regardless......no need to lie to convince.......the latter is used car salesman BS. Pistol whipping material in my book 

Yeah, I'm that guy


----------



## bkjay

Grizz Speaking of flat cones have you checked out the new SS R1?


http://www.soundstream.com/html/subs-reference-r1.html


----------



## tnbubba

dude when i talk about Chinese crap im talking about a lot of other industries i deal in other than electronics..if you saw some of the **** i saw in stuff that was imported for machinery, equipment, industrial factory stuff, u would ****! its 100x worse that the jap crap of the 60's n 70's


----------



## rexroadj

tnbubba said:


> dude when i talk about Chinese crap im talking about a lot of other industries i deal in other than electronics..if you saw some of the **** i saw in stuff that was imported for machinery, equipment, industrial factory stuff, u would ****! its 100x worse that the jap crap of the 60's n 70's


As long as you and everyone else realizes thats ONLY because its allowed! Has nothing to do with location 

I didnt deal with audio factories but the concept is identical across the board when discussing the plants! They do what you tell them/allow them. Period! 
You allow cheap **** or want cheap ****....guess what you get? You require certain level of excellence? They can and will do that too.....its just that simple!


----------



## subwoofery

Grizz Archer said:


> The New Human reigns wer said to be identical on the inside,. but I had heard from a tech that they were different. I am not 100% sure. But I can tell you this,,, Media Markt by me has a pair of the original Human Reigns on their display. I did not know they ever even carried the brand. But there is a pair sitting there and they have no idea what they are...


I'll send you a PM when I have some spare change (probably in a year or so lol) to buy those two for less than €800  

Kelvin


----------



## Grizz Archer

bkjay said:


> Grizz Speaking of flat cones have you checked out the new SS R1?
> 
> 
> Soundstream - Subwoofers - Reference R1



I saw that. I will not express my fullopinion to everybody here. All I will say is that they wanted to use that cast part again. The last time we talked about it when I was there, it was a standard motor, not the phenomenal motor that was in their before. I would not do it because then it would juts be an expensive driver but have zero features out of the norm. Plus, there were alot of failure problems with other drivers from the factory that made it. So, my guess is that it is a pretty, bulky style driver from 10 years ago, but nothing like the original R1. If you PM me, I'll give you my prediction for this driver. I just do not to put it in print for everybody... lol


----------



## Grizz Archer

cajunner said:


> on that note, you've been thoroughly expunged from Soundstream for a while now, what can you tell about the amps Karl Cummings designed, in your opinion?
> 
> Expunged - love that word... Anyway, I will answer your email as I go through it to the best of my knowledge... I never met Karl, but I think his designs speak for themselves. I have no persoanal opinion of him. but I do respect his work.
> 
> like, if a new model Reference was a 10 on a scale from 1 to 10, where would the Van Gogh series land?
> OK,this is 100% subjective, obviously. SQ - I like the new Reference better, no question. Build quality - I think both pretty close. Interior design quality - I like the VG but think the new Ref is a a more intelligent and modern design. Controls - ner Ref by far. (Ok, I am normally never biased, but not I am - I designed the pre-amp stage that is in all of the new amplifiers. Well, I am not sure what is in 2013 models, because I am willing to bet they will cheapen them now that I am not there to throw a fit like a little girl until I get my way. lol) Exterior design - I like both, but I like heatsink fins- just my opinion. Honestly, the Ref amps that they refused due to quality that were sold in Germany were not blue, but rather grey. I love that look. But I could appreciate the VG in a nice install ina luxury car where the design was appropriate...
> 
> 
> and, I see you mentioned some amps coming out of Soundstream being current hogs compared to the new school of stuff Epsilon is putting out, is this going further back than the Van Gogh, or including them?
> I was referring to the Human Reigns that we were talking about. Man, when I was EXPUNGED (lol) none of the new stuff in the 2013 catalog was even on the table. The purchaser there buys whatever he wants even though... Nevermind, not going to go there. Same with the speakers. Those were all put together within a few months after my time. M designs typically take a year from concept to production. But I am a picky ass and several of my designes to over 5 revisions to get them right. And I failed at one design that never even came out because I could not get the factory to do as I told them. I was in the process to trying to get back to basics without all of the motor cover crap. Without all of the bling bling BS. I wanted to make badass drivers, with better performance, and at the same cost or even a bit less. They we just starting to listen, biut as you can see from the catalog, they finally listened. But I made it very clear in a separate post that I had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE 2013 PRODUCTS!!! I would have done everything WAY different. Anyway, with a few glances, it is obvious that all of the new products were not done by me, and obviously not done by any engineer at Soundstream, because they do not have one anymore. They have a purchaser that makes his own decisions, and they have a couple other people that give idea of they think is cool. I am guessing that they started calling factories after I was gone and asked them to send samples of off-the-shelf products to test. Then, without knowing my testing/auditioning protocol (I never did my testing with anybody else! I got opinions several times, but I never executed my personal protocol while anybody was with me) they probably listened and then said "put flat or semi-flat diaphragms on everything and follow this scheme..." Really not sure, but some things are obvious and I will not say them for everybody, only in a private PM...
> 
> 
> and in response to why people may have hard habits about old school bulky parts, bigger boards:
> 
> when you got in, 29 years ago you probably remember the ad copy of Orion, and Hifonics, among others that came later on.
> Oh yeah, I remember.
> 
> Mil-spec, was a feature.
> 1% tolerance, metal film resistors, remember that?
> lol Yeah, I remember. They should have included the other obvious features...
> 
> Oxygen Breathing PCB Topology
> SACT - Separate Actual Channel Technology
> Remote Controlled Activation
> 
> And my favorite...
> Customized Aluminum Heat Extraction!!!
> LOL
> 
> 
> double-sided epoxy PCB, ounces of copper in the traces...
> I think as we saw more companies come to market we eventually began to expect certain things, and then you had Audio Art, you had Phoenix Gold, making the insides pretty and using high grade parts.
> I still think the PG MS amos were the most beautiful on the inside... I wanted to do that but I was shot down.
> 
> I remember reading about mosfet, and when those amps moved from just the power supply to full mosfet, in the Rockfords. There was some debate even then, about how mosfet wasn't as well-suited in that application in comparison to bi-polar devices.
> And that argument still is in effect today. Both work and both have pros and cons. I had an engineer dummy it down for me so I could form my own opinion. I prefer bi-polar, but that is just my opinion...
> 
> We (consumers) have a running tally in our head that is filled with perceived "better ways to do it" and look at amplifiers with virtual wish lists, and when the old school ad copy put it in our brains so long ago, that high current was equivalent to high quality, we accepted it. Complementary Symmetry circuits, good. Darlington transistor arrangement, great... When we were told that Sanken made the best bi-polar output transistors, we accepted it. When we saw high grade capacitors in products, (because we are all capacitor experts, haha) we thought wow, that's great.
> 
> I think a lot of us who look at new school items miss the ad copy, like the various advantages of using SMT and insertion machines don't get up to the level of advertising like we used to get in the days of Car Stereo Review and amplifiers being tested by Tom Nousaine and all the geek we could reliably digest, coming mainstream.
> I agreee with all of that...
> 
> 
> That whole geeked out part of the hobby and the sales pitch, using jargon and interesting sounding catch phrases, is a lost art today.
> Damn right! So what do we have today. A few OS guys like me, and the new generation that thinks they know everything. There is no doubt that they will create new technologies, but EXPERIENCE COMES FROM EXPERIENCE. Experience doe snot come from a boom or primadonna opinion. It is is funny though, like you were saying, how people loved to learn about new stuff back in the day. People today want OS, yet they do not know why and what the downfalls are. Ya know, I really think the whole term "Old School" is respected too much. When I hear that term, I immediately think "oh cool! Something I can identify with from my past". Others may think they they are cool if they like OS. But when thing are remembered because they were cool, how is that much different from nostalgia? Are nostalgia and OS the same thing? Does that make them better? I guess my point is that I think alot of people want and respect OS for now reason whatsoever...
> 
> The old school, it was cool to know why someone's amp was inferior to the one the salesman sold you yesterday, because it was in the details.
> 
> 
> I think the automation progression, or engineering tech has made it so that even the cheap chinese caps that are produced today are possibly better made than the better caps from 30 or 40 years ago.
> 
> but, what's the limit, where does the line get crossed? 10 year longevity? 5 years, stable like a rock and in tolerance, then flushed? Chinese product is made to an obsoletion lifetime where the old school amps weren't. They were products being made with the best feasible parts for a price, but the parts used weren't engineered for an average mean, they were meant to last as long as the product, and it showed in the prices.
> 
> I agree, it's a long time now passed, where the consumer not only appreciated the finer points of a product and listened to salesmen but didn't mind paying extra for perceptual quality. Today, it's mostly European product that can be looked at the same way and guess what? They charge the equivalent of old school pricing, for their stuff...
> Yup. And remember ho cool the shops were back in the day. Even the flooring was awesome. Today, most shops have zero brand loyalty, and are set up like little flea markets. It is all about business, which is important, but the passion of the 80s & 90s will never be matched again, in the USA. The few shops I have been in here are very serious. Serious about quality, serious about knowledge, and serious abut trying to be better than the next shop, in every way. It is that healthy competitive ambition that makes the shops here awesome. In the USA, it is all about sales, lowest prices, for the most part...


 Sad reality...


----------



## Grizz Archer

subwoofery said:


> I'll send you a PM when I have some spare change (probably in a year or so lol) to buy those two for less than €800
> 
> Kelvin


I'd buy them if I had the money...


----------



## Grizz Archer

cajunner said:


> thanks for that thoughtful reply, Grizz.
> 
> I too believe that resurrecting the climate of the mid-nineties in car audio is a hard sell, but I have to believe that a period of recession-proof, deficit NOT looming, economy booming would serve to give people the discretionary income in large numbers, and not just the 2 percenters, that could support a renaissance in the aftermarket.
> 
> The technology being built-in the products, seems to be shifted towards being built into the cars, today. We have one-size fits all stuff like the MS-8 and Imprint, and a couple of new processors from the Europeans, but following the old school pattern we are left with fewer and fewer choices where a double or single DIN slot can be filled and there is room for the additions/improvement, without damaging the vehicle's aesthetic and function.
> 
> And, it's nice that you can get a "Harmon Kardon" or a "B&W" system, but the proliferation of audio companies in the OEM, seems like a profit-motivated move on the part of the audio companies themselves, and not as much as a consequence of buyer's tastes, or needs anymore. The same people who might have sprung 3K for a decent aftermarket system, will pick up the option on the car at the dealership, and have it warrantied with the tires.
> 
> That competition you speak of, does seem to be as you say, more a European observation in innovation, when American companies built the industry and basically dominated it for decades. The aging engineer base in the US coupled with the constant pressure to "get it done cheaper in China" means that any right-minded startup is going to have to charge a premium for a product built here, and be subject to the consumer winds. Like JL produces their upscale subs in Florida, likely with parts off a container ship. Even then, they have to price the product to where people develop a veneer of audio snobbery if they can afford them, and distaste/jealousy for the ones who cannot.
> 
> If any of the old school qualities were to be applied to a business model here in the US, it probably wouldn't survive based on the quality of product coming out of China today. That might be the result of too much excess, or billed-in luxury of a luxury good, that defined the late nineties or it might represent the devaluation of labor in a foreign market, unfairly compromising an entire industry to the point of the Chinese looking decades down the road, instead of what's going to happen next quarter.
> 
> If anyone disputes this, they just have to look at who is building the lion's share of car audio today, the transition away from an American manufacturing base is nearly complete.


Agreed. That last sentence is vomit inducing, but true. Your comment about better OEM systems is an interesting topic. If I have the choice of a standard system or Bose system, of course I would take the standard system and upgrade it. I'm sure there may be a BOSE system, out there that is pretty nice, but I have never heard one. Better than stock, sure, and great for the not-so-picky. But not good enough for me.

However, I have heard some pretty outstanding OEM systems. The Fender system in the VW is pretty sweet, but they screwed up on the tweeter in my opinion. Swap out the tweeters and that system pretty awesome. My BMW come 3 stereo options: Standard, Hi-Fi and Super HiFi. The Super system has the L7 JBL/Harman system that is quite possibly the best system out there. The mid level system I heard was a radical drop in quality and not acceptable. My car has just about every option known to man, but has the standard system. I NEVER turn it on. Even the navigation voice sound bad. Utterly pathetic. Funny, most brands make a Good, Better, Best series of Products, but BMW has the "fat man farting yogurt" level, the "sounds great for talk radio, at least" level, and then jumps to the "If God came down for a visit, he would have this system in his car". But even with the **** system I have, you simply cannot replace the radio and start from scratch. The entire vehicle is controlled by that radio. Auto manufacturer are making it very difficult upgrade, but if they do it right, it is hard to justify an upgrade anyway, for most people anyway...


----------



## quietfly

Grizz Archer said:


> Agreed. That last sentence is vomit inducing, but true. Your comment about better OEM systems is an interesting topic. If I have the choice of a standard system or Bose system, of course I would take the standard system and upgrade it. I'm sure there may be a BOSE system, out there that is pretty nice, but I have never heard one. Better than stock, sure, and great for the not-so-picky. But not good enough for me.
> 
> However, I have heard some pretty outstanding OEM systems. The Fender system in the VW is pretty sweet, but they screwed up on the tweeter in my opinion. Swap out the tweeters and that system pretty awesome. My BMW come 3 stereo options: Standard, Hi-Fi and Super HiFi. The Super system has the L7 JBL/Harman system that is quite possibly the best system out there. The mid level system I heard was a radical drop in quality and not acceptable. My car has just about every option known to man, but has the standard system. I NEVER turn it on. Even the navigation voice sound bad. Utterly pathetic. Funny, most brands make a Good, Better, Best series of Products, but BMW has the "fat man farting yogurt" level, the "sounds great for talk radio, at least" level, and then jumps to the "If God came down for a visit, he would have this system in his car". But even with the **** system I have, you simply cannot replace the radio and start from scratch. The entire vehicle is controlled by that radio. Auto manufacturer are making it very difficult upgrade, but if they do it right, it is hard to justify an upgrade anyway, for most people anyway...



I totally agree. Factory headunit integration is becoming more and more prevalent. Even in "low end cars" also iPod integration is becoming a defacto standard, so many people don't have the motivation to go through the pains of upgrading a stock system. I long for the days of the "radio delete" option...


----------



## WLDock

Grizz Archer said:


> Auto manufacturer are making it very difficult upgrade, but if they do it right, it is hard to justify an upgrade anyway, for most people anyway...


 Oh so true. I have heard from several music lovers that either play music, have BOSE home systems, fancy/trendy headphones, loaded ipod classics, and some with OK aftermarket systems now or in the past that have noticed how much better stock systems are sounding.....some of these guys have rented several cars over the last two years or so and have said that they would be fine with most of the systems in cars today.

None are audiophile types that have expensive home or car systems but they all love music. However, trying to sell them a $500-$2500 car audio amp will be a VERY tough sell indeed.


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## piyush7243

So adding to HRU's the new HRU's are not as good as the older ones. I am surprised till now no one has done a circuit board comparison of old and new Human Reign. We would see if there is some difference or not..

I bought the new Human Reign and going to run it in few days after listening to new Ref's and Sinfoni Amplitude. Lets see how it goes.


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## rexroadj

Interested to see what you think about the Ref vs. HRU. (depending on which Ref)
I went from Mcintosh to Ref to HRU and back to Ref.
To me the Ref was the best of the bunch...... I had the 4.920 (as well as several other models  and I thought it was a substantial amount more powerful? Or it seamed? I know they were rated the same and doubt either was that under rated...... I preferred the 4.920 personally. But the HRU was sill a stud! It ran much cooler thats for sure.....handled bridged at 3ohms cooler too....but the 4.920 did run 3ohms bridged without issue!!! To be fair.....I beat the **** out of all of them


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## piyush7243

rexroadj said:


> Interested to see what you think about the Ref vs. HRU. (depending on which Ref)
> I went from Mcintosh to Ref to HRU and back to Ref.
> To me the Ref was the best of the bunch...... I had the 4.920 (as well as several other models  and I thought it was a substantial amount more powerful? Or it seamed? I know they were rated the same and doubt either was that under rated...... I preferred the 4.920 personally. But the HRU was sill a stud! It ran much cooler thats for sure.....handled bridged at 3ohms cooler too....but the 4.920 did run 3ohms bridged without issue!!! To be fair.....I beat the **** out of all of them


I have the same ref as urs 4.920 when i moved from Ref to Sinfoni. The higher frequencies were far more pronounced and the depth increased. Lets see how these fare. I don't want to be disappointed


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## silkk

Grizz Archer said:


> I'm impressed that you're impressed.  I always value your opinion since I a not an amp engineer and like to hear what other knowledgeable people have to say. The REF boards took years to get right and all previous attempts fell short of what we were looking for. All of the grey ones that were sold in Europe were failures that our FIRED German distributor back doored directly from the factory. Imagine the load I almost dumped when I saw them in vehicles at the Sinsheim show! I was not happy. All of the new designs have been awesome for us, this far...



Even though this post is more than 1 year old, it definetely caught my attention given my current experience with an acquisition of a SS Ref 800.2 (the so called "european model" in gray), which by the time I'm writing this it's on its way from Germany to me.

I was about to buy a MB Quart Premier amplifier from eBay Germany, when the Soundstream Ref 800.2 caught my attention, given the low price of 200 Eur (which equals about $267). I searched a bit more on the internet about this model, found some stellar reviews of it and it's 4 channel sibling, the Ref 800.4 (which by the way, sells at exactly the same price as 800.2 - strange, huh?) from the german Car & HiFi and Autohifi magazines (some well regarded review magazines from Germany, as well regarded as a review magazine can be nowdays ). The reviews gave 6 out of 6 stars to both Ref 800.2 and 800.4 amps and awarded them as "Absolute top class" in terms of SQ and power, in 2006 and 2008, respecteviley. You can still find the german reviews scanned on the former SS german distribuitor website, Audio Design (which I guess Grizz is mentioning as being fired back in the day:

Audio Design GmbH | Soundstream

Please note that in the PDF of the Ref 800.2 review, the map being pictured is blue, not grey.

Being interested in finding some data about this SS Ref 800.2 I looked over soundstream.com where I found a 2009 manual of the REF2.640 amp (see below):

http://www.soundstream.com/manuals/2009/Reference Amplifier (2009).pdf

What really intrigued me was the statement from page 3 saying: "When we first decided to reintroduce the coveted amplifiers, we just wanted something as fine as the originals. They were finer than most amplifiers in the marketplace today. After failing to deliver for a couple of years, we decided to hold back until we were 100% certain that there was nothing else we could do to make the amplifiers any better. 
Many crappy clone amps popped up in Germany and Asia, but none were real Soundstream Reference amplifiers, and they certainly did not come from us."

Assuming that I might be "robbed" paying for a fake amp that I just bought from eBay Germany, I immediately email-ed Soundstream at the U.S.A Sales & Information email address ([email protected]) and in CC I copied the International Sales email address ([email protected]) asking if the Ref 800.2 model I just bought is a fake one or not (providing the auction link which pictures a gray Ref 800.2 amp).

20 minutes later I received an email from Chuck Kenney (National Sales Manager) telling me: "No, our amps are blue.We release reference in 2010. Those are fake amps." Just when I really got pissed off, I receive another email, this time form SS tech Support telling me: "That model was made exclusively for Germany. We would not have any info on any of the models"

You can imagine my surprise...

I have written back to the german eBay-er asking about the authenticity of the amps and their source, quoting Chuck's email.He replied me twice about the fact that he sells exclusively genuine stuff (he has a huge B&M shop and warehouse in Germany and more than 5500 sales on eBay with a feedback score of 99.7%) and the distributor where he got those amps (he has more than 10 listed as quantity on eBay) is Audio Design (Germany).

Then I have addressed an enthusiast SS fan on caraudio.com asking if he knew something about this story of the german SS amps, whom was very kind in replying me that he knows those Grey Reference Amps were made for Soundstream but were rejected by the company. The distributor in Germany without SS permission gave the ok to have them made anyways. Soundstream never sold those amps, or made any money from them. From what he knows they are still good amps. But the owner of Soundstream wanted the relaunch of the Reference amps to be "Better Quality" than the amps they were presented with. (The grey ones). The amps come in Soundstream boxes but Soundstream dose not recognize them as a Soundstream product and are not and never were covered by any kind of warranty. He mentioned that a lot of the 5 channel Grey Reference amps (Ref 800.5) were purchased by a company called Tidal Audio in US and sold under that brand name. They look exactly the same but have Tidal Audio Screened on the amp.

Afterwards, I have read Grizz's post quoted above and, as I got more confused, I wrote back to the german buyer telling my findings so far and making him aware of Chuck's email and the story behind the german SS made amps, and he got a little mad and replied me this:

"........someone is telling a lot of bull****, the european distributor is in the netherlands now. A company like Audio Design, which is 3-4 times bigger than Soundstream will never back door order directly from the factory..... what they have done (Soundstream) is to let them build for the european market, with the agreement from Soundstream US, because the americans didn't want to build the version for europe with "European-certification" + " RoHS compliant" and in that way they let them build in a different colour....(grey in this case).

I'm still waiting for the map to reach me, but I reckon, that I was never so confused regarding any of the acquisitions I have made:worried:

Who is right: Grizz (former SS employee, as I understood), Chuck (current National sales manager) or the german retailer (a very big shop/warehouse and serious eBay-er, as it seems)? I imagine that if what Grizz is saying above is true, there would have been a huge copyright infringement scandal targeted towards Audio Design (Germany)...

PS: I have written back Chuck yesterday asking about an official Soundstream distributor in Europe, but no reply so far...


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## mob17

How does the Ref4.920 compare to a Mosconi Gladen One 120.4?


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## cleansoundz

Good stuff here.


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