# 2000 BMW 540i w/DSP project



## MarkyD (Nov 27, 2008)

So, I have been toiling over which direction to go with this car.
It has the factory DSP system in it, which is utter crap. The only way to do anything aside from adding a sub amp is to basically gut the car - Remove DSP amp, install new 4-channel and sub amps, replace all speakers.

The front has 3-ways from the factory. The rear has component 5.25."
I would like to go with a 2-way comp sent in the front and rear. 6.5" components can be fitted in both locations with a little work, which I'm going to have advantage audio in Norman OK perform for me.

Now, I'm just not sure what direction to go. I have heard amazing things about the Hybrid Audio stuff, but I'd only be able to do fronts at that price. I do want the rear fill, as my son will be in the rear quite often. I plan on eventually integrating some sort of dvd-entertainment, so I need the sound to be great in the rear as well. Here's my dilemma. My budget for the front AND rear doors is around $500. That will either buy me:
1. two sets of decent 6.5" components. In the car I just sold, I had the Morel Tempo set, and I felt the bang for the buck was just amazing. They sounded great. I could get two sets of these, or something similar, and stuff them in each door.
2. Get the 6.5" Hybrid Audio in the front, and lose sound in the rear until I can afford to put something back there, too. I'm not sure I like this solution...

For people who have heard the Hybrids in comparison to the Morel (or something in the same price range), can you comment? I'd love to know if the Hybrids really sound THAT much better to justify 2x the price over the tempos. 

Also, to the topic of a sub. I'm going to probably just go with a single sub in the trunk aimed through the ski-pass. I'm much more interested in SQ at all volumes than I am loud, booming bass. What would be a good sub for me for under $250? I do listen to hip-hop on occasion, but I mostly listen to rock/reggae/alt stuff. 

Thanks in advance for any input.

OH! Almost forgot amplification. I can't afford super-high-end amps. I'd like something 4-channel middle-of-the-road to power the two component sets, and a good sub amp. Any thoughts?

Mark


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## MarkyD (Nov 27, 2008)

oh...and as cheap as Profile amps are, they are likely garbage, right?


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## HIS4 (Oct 6, 2005)

No matter what you're planning to do as far a rear seat entertainment, I'd say its a waste to spend big money on rears. What I would do is to spend the majority of the money on the front components and the amplifier and then use whatever is left over to buy rear fill. I would probably just go with mids for rear fill but if you really want full sound back there you could go with some higher end coax. 

As far as Hybrid vs Morel Tempo, I don't think that's a fair comparison. You're comparing the entry level Morels with the upper end Hybrids. If you compared the Morel Hybrid Ovations or Elates to the HATs it would probably be a better comparison. Then it would just come down to what kind of sound you prefer.


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## MarkyD (Nov 27, 2008)

HIS4 said:


> No matter what you're planning to do as far a rear seat entertainment, I'd say its a waste to spend big money on rears. What I would do is to spend the majority of the money on the front components and the amplifier and then use whatever is left over to buy rear fill. I would probably just go with mids for rear fill but if you really want full sound back there you could go with some higher end coax.
> 
> As far as Hybrid vs Morel Tempo, I don't think that's a fair comparison. You're comparing the entry level Morels with the upper end Hybrids. If you compared the Morel Hybrid Ovations or Elates to the HATs it would probably be a better comparison. Then it would just come down to what kind of sound you prefer.


thanks for the post. That gives me a few things to think on.
As for amplification, is Alpine a safe bet?
I was thinking this for front comps/rear coax (or comps, whichever I choose):
MRP-F600 - Alpine V-Power Series 4-channel 600 Watt Amplifier

and something like this to power a sub:
MRP-M500 - Alpine Mono 500W subwoofer amplifier

Seems like a great price for the power ratings advertised...


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

You can do much better if you settle for used from FS section here.


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## HIS4 (Oct 6, 2005)

Not sure if you are open to the used market. Some people just like the security of purchasing new gear. The Kenwood Exelon X4R and X1R would be a good pair of amps to look at too. Similar in price to the Alpines you listed but more options in terms of DSP.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

What is the total budget, out the door, complete?

I ask because you need to wire, deaden, process, amplify, and of course have money for speakers and sub(s). With hard budget, I (and others) can get it figured out for you w/ options.


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## MarkyD (Nov 27, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> What is the total budget, out the door, complete?
> 
> I ask because you need to wire, deaden, process, amplify, and of course have money for speakers and sub(s). With hard budget, I (and others) can get it figured out for you w/ options.


For amps, sub, box, wire, processing, and speakers I'm hoping to stay under $2k. I already have two bulk boxes of dynamat, and a roll of rammat... so no worries there.

I'd love to hear some input! BTW. that 2k figure does not take in to account any install charges, because I'll do a large majority of it myself.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

2 G's? That's quite a bit especially if you already have all the deadening you'll need. I do recommend you do the Ensolite or rattle-pad as well (you may already have it, but not be mentioned yet.)

Now then, here's my system suggestion (under budget):

Processor-wise, because almost nobody makes a processor that runs enough channels to control a system of this size, I'm going to recommend a pair of RF3sixty.2's strapped together (yes, they do that!) You can get each 3sixty.2 for around ~$300 total $600. This will allow control of 10 main channels, and 2 sub channels. Slightly overkill, but neat.

With this, you can keep a 3 way set of components in the front, and run a coaxial, biaxial, or component set in the rear as well. For the purposes of maintaining a decent budget, I'm going to stick with 2-way in the front. You can run the entire system actively, so you'll have excellent control over all aspects from a laptop. 

**This is the option for 3 way if you have another amp, and 200 more for a set of mids**
Front 3-way, set as best you can in the factory condition, a set of Pioneer TS-C720PRS components (with the crossover tossed out), with an order placed for the matching 4" midrange TS-S101PRS, which is about $200 a pair shipped overseas to the U.S. So, that's about 425 altogether.**

Front TS-C720PRS components, $225 shipped

Rear deck 2-way (though I feel it is unnecesary!), do a set of Pioneer Premier 520's, ~$200 shipped. 

Subs, well npdang is toying with the idea of putting a deal together on DIYMA subs again, $175 shipped for the pair. THAT's the sub set to go with, my man. 

Amps, Phoenix Gold Xenon amps. A pair of 100.4's, $225 each. A 600.1, runs $237. BTW with a pair of 100.4's, you can go 3-way in the front OR bridge for more juice for the mids.

Wire? Easy. Welding wire 1/0 gauge from the battery to the trunk, then run a fused distro box, 4 gauge welding wire to the amps. Amazon has Kicker RCA's on sale, so you can get those cheaply. This distro box looks good enough, and cheap Phoenix Gold TXBBKF4 Power Distribution Blocks Distribution Blocks Amplifier Installation Car Accessories and Installation Car Audio and Video - Sonic Electronix . Let's assume that you could get all this for around $100 or so. 


There ya go! Under 2 g's, killer processing, amps, subs, and components.


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## MarkyD (Nov 27, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> 2 G's? That's quite a bit especially if you already have all the deadening you'll need. I do recommend you do the Ensolite or rattle-pad as well (you may already have it, but not be mentioned yet.)
> 
> Now then, here's my system suggestion (under budget):
> 
> ...



holy smokes, that's a pretty killer setup. For some reason I thought Phoenix Gold had gone to crap? I can't remember where I heard that. Also, about the Pioneer speakers...are they better than the Morel Tempos? They are at about the same price point, and I've never really listened to any recent Pioneer sets.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

I am going to counterpoint Fourthmeals idea.

While it is very good, let me hit a couple things...

1st, I have a 01 5 series with DSP as well.

1. How in depth have you looked at removing the DSP? It is not really all that hard, however you have to remember that you are looking at a good 5v balanced output from the head unit. You will need to figure out how to bypass the factory amp setup that works for you, and use some processor that accepts balanced inputs via RCA (or whatever you choose to modify to work with the output of the system.

2. Do you actually care about running your system active? If not, a single 360.2 will give you 6 channels, or front R/L, rear R/L, and sub

3. I like the speaker recomendations. Knock out the extra RF 360 and you have a few more dollars. Along the same line...
4. If you run passive you also do not need the second amplifier, and you can get a single amp for all 4 channels. Something in the 100-150 per channel (Alpine PDX 4.150 seems great for you here) and you are set up.


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## mjgonegm (Jun 21, 2008)

If I were you i would do this setup.....

Gut the factory system.

Run this in the front 370$
Focal 6.5" + 4" Access 3-Way Component Speakers

Run this in the Rear 360$
160V2 - Focal 6" 2 Way Component System

Amp For these 470$
450/4 - JL Audio 4 Ch. Amplifier

Run this for SubWoofer 150$
Diyma Subwoofer 12"

Amp for this 420$
500/1 - JL Audio 1 Ch 500 Watt Amplifier

1770$$ I would get of those subs , but thats me. Plus a Headunit of your choice and wiring and it should come close to 2k, I would just skip going active for now


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## mjgonegm (Jun 21, 2008)

oh BTW look used, I doubt if you find a good deal on those Jl's cause NOBODY wants to get rid off them


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## slvrtsunami (Apr 18, 2008)

Which radio is in the car right now, is it the 4:3 screen or the 16:9?



Wow, this is why I love this site....so many great suggestions!! I have an E39 as well and can feel for you. Based on my experience. I would not bother with the rear fill, since your son will hear the front end pretty well. Second, do not use the factory tweeter location in the rear doors (if you decide on rears afterall). Lastly, with proper power application, you do not need to necessarily have it go through the ski boot. Ever thought about IB? they work great in that chassis. 
As far as equipment, that's is a personal matter for you to decide.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

mjgonegm said:


> If I were you i would do this setup.....
> 
> Gut the factory system.
> 
> ...



Dont get teh Focal 3 way he is suggesting. Without serious modification it will not work. The mid for these cars is a 1.5-1.75" dome, above the trim. Not able to get much bigger without some serious work. 

do a search for "e39" for some install threads.

also, unless you are a JL fanboy, dont worry about spending way too much for their stuff new. Get it used, or get a better deal.

Matt


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

I have done the DSP-removal in the E39 and in the X5. The HU OP is not balanced, it's speaker, actually, but it works great. 

If you need rears, use OEM rears. 

For 2k you can get some good stuff. The E39 door enclosures make the install tricky - you either need to fab up some backs on the DP, or you need to EQ the snot out of the 5.25 to keep them from getting honky. 

Last two I did I used DLS UP5 because the stamped-frame driver dropped in. I think the new ones are cast. Hertz 130 would drop in too. 

Most 5.25 that can drop into the door enclosures are meant for infinite baffle mounting - the small enclosures give you more power handling, but make the upper midbass honky and cause rolloff in the lower midbass. You need some clean power and a good EQ. 

I used Zapco DC, but on your budget, maybe not - too costly. The 360.2 would work. you can even use a good 1/2 DIN EQ in the bracket in back for the Nav DVD drive. I have put PG parametric EQs there. 

You could also use those new Kenwoods with DSP IF they take speaker level in.

If I had your car to do, I would ace the rears, use the F and R HU outputs to use the fader as a subbass level control, and use a 360.2 on some nice amps.


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## GM-E39 (Nov 11, 2008)

This may sound stupid, but what is IB???


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Insta-Bass. 







Infinite Baffle (no enclosure, panel isolating front wave from back)


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## slvrtsunami (Apr 18, 2008)

damn, beat me to it!!!! )


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

GM-E39 said:


> This may sound stupid, but what is IB???


Infinite Baffle.

Here's your required reading to understand this hobby 

Basic Car Audio Electronics

There will be a test later.


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## GM-E39 (Nov 11, 2008)

Thanks

I'v been out of the game for a while


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

IB is also called "freeair" a lot.


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## herrubermensch (Jan 23, 2009)

VP Electricity said:


> I have done the DSP-removal in the E39 and in the X5. The HU OP is not balanced, it's speaker, actually, but it works great.


Check out the blogs by Douglas Baker on the M5Board.com and the links to various websites he provides there. The output from an E39 M5 HU (the BM53 unit in the trunk, hooked up to a dumb terminal in the front of the car that doubles as a nav screen) is indeed 5v balanced. One can tap directly into the 5V balanced outs using a metra adapter and some soldered in RCAs, but you will either have to put the RCAs into an amp that accepts 5v balanced inputs OR you will have to run it through an LOC of one sort or another. I ran mine through an Audio Control DQXS and then into two Alpine PDX-5s, off of which I run HAT L1Pro tweeters, HAT L3 mids, Illusion Audio Nd-8s in the doors, and two Dynaudio MW190s IB in the rear deck.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

herrubermensch said:


> Check out the blogs by Douglas Baker on the M5Board.com and the links to various websites he provides there.


No. You find Bob Hazelwood's (late of a/d/s/) original forum posts on DSP removal in E39s and how to do it. He did it first as far as I know. I used to think it was balanced before I knew better. 



herrubermensch said:


> The output from an E39 M5 HU (the BM53 unit in the trunk, hooked up to a dumb terminal in the front of the car that doubles as a nav screen) is indeed 5v balanced.


No, it's not. It's speaker. Seriously. The tuner module in the back has speaker outs. The R speaker out pins are missing but if you fill them then you get F and R speaker outs with the fader working (I use it for a sub level control). DSP systems run a fixed speaker signal into the DSP amp, which is why the volume control lives in the DSP amp. If you unplug the HU for a while to get it out of DSP mode, the HU reverts to non-DSP volume-control mode



herrubermensch said:


> I ran mine through an Audio Control DQXS and then into two Alpine PDX-5s, off of which I run HAT L1Pro tweeters, HAT L3 mids, Illusion Audio Nd-8s in the doors, and two Dynaudio MW190s IB in the rear deck.


Good thing that all works with a speaker-level signal and doesn't know you think it's balanced...


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## herrubermensch (Jan 23, 2009)

Ok. All I know is what others who have measured it with a multimeter say and that what works for me is setting the DQXS jumpers to balanced inputs.

I did exactly what you describe in terms of getting the direct outs from the BM53 in the trunk. I stuffed the pins by using a Metra adaptor, then soldering the RCAs to the Metra adaptor. Remove the DSP and install an aftermarket amp with an LOC, cut the power for a bit, the HU deletes the DSP, and it works like a charm. But it didn't work very well at all without the DQXS (i.e., running the RCAs directly into an amp that does not handle balanced inputs) or with the DQXS jumpers set on anything other than balanced outs. The DQXS also serves as a LOC to mesh the voltage of the HU with the requirements of the PDX-5s. Thus, the signal seen by the PDX-5 is not speaker level. Happy to let you hear it for yourself at Bimmerfest or the next M5 gathering if you so desire. 

Yes, Hazelwood did it first, but the process has been refined, and the information confirmed, through numerous installers, including El Duderino on the X5 Board and Douglas Baker on the M5 Board. 

Perhaps the HU you dealt with was not the BM53 unit? There are different HUs.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

herrubermensch said:


> Yes, Hazelwood did it first, but the process has been refined, and the information confirmed, through numerous installers, including El Duderino on the X5 Board and Douglas Baker on the M5 Board.


LOFL. 

I AM El Duderino 

(I told you I used to think it was balanced! : )


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

VP, Lets have some info. I am about to pull my DSP setup and do my install, this weekend if time permits.

Going with Zapco DC series. Have the Metra kit to push in the rear speaker inputs. 

I have the SLDIN-t and the SLDIN-BLT-T transmitters. Which should I use?


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## herrubermensch (Jan 23, 2009)

VP Electricity said:


> LOFL.
> 
> I AM El Duderino
> 
> (I told you I used to think it was balanced! : )


Now THAT is pretty damn funny, I have to admit. 

Ok, so now you have my attention. I have been looking for you to ask you a question about integrating my BT with my system. But before getting to that, how is it that my DQXS seems to work best with the jumpers set to balanced? And why did my PDX-5, which doesn't accept balanced inputs, freak out when I tried running directly from the HU to the amp? I am (now) not questioning your conclusion that the HU outs are not balanced, but just trying to figure out why my system works so well on the "balanced" settings and not otherwise. I had always thought that, when you disconnect the DSP and the power, the HU reverted to 5v balanced outputs. Man, some guys on the M5Board are going to hear about this!

On the BT front, I read all of your posts and took the outs from the 54 pin connector in the BT module and instead of running them back into the radio as per the non-DSP wiring diagram wired them directly to a small PA amp (ELK 800 10W that a lot of M5ers use) and wired it to a mid-range speaker in the front door. Problem: same one you had when you tried to wire the BT outs into the HU: no sound. Any thoughts? 

I really appreciate your response. (Can you feel the respect, now?) Thanks.

--Peter


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## PScalfano (Dec 7, 2007)

Hey another E39, cool! I too have a 2000 540i, and it was equipped with DSP. I defeated dsp using info from douglasabaker on m5board.com, replacing the stock amp with 2 JL slash series amps. My budget was 1k and I bought mostly used stuff. Here's my build thread - I hope the info helps you.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

el_chupo_ said:


> VP, Lets have some info. I am about to pull my DSP setup and do my install, this weekend if time permits.
> 
> Going with Zapco DC series. Have the Metra kit to push in the rear speaker inputs.
> 
> I have the SLDIN-t and the SLDIN-BLT-T transmitters. Which should I use?


With an e39 I would go straight into the SLDIN cable. The BLT is only needed in my experience with newer Logic 7 systems with higher output power than the HU has. I was surprised to see Zapco recommend the BLT in that application since they were the ones who told me to go straight in. I have a friend with an E39 sport with DSP and that's what we did in that car with a DC360 and a DC500. 

However, the SL DIN cable carries signal grounds with the signal pairs AND a seperate ground shield. I would extend both of them. You will have horrible noise without one or both of these grounded (I would extend both so that you can test either way). Zapco recommends grounding to the HU chassis, but I have never seen that needed. One time I went to tune the car and the signal ground wire was floating and the noise was the scariest thing - you would have sworn your amp was blowed up and stuff : )


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

ran my bit1 thru the head unit of my bmw 745 02 model. works like a charm and I have all the flexibility I need. turned off the logic7 thru the head unit.

did IB thru the ski pass. awesome bass with 2 12's


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

herrubermensch said:


> Now THAT is pretty damn funny, I have to admit.


The Internet is great - I get to correct MY OWN disinformation 

The PDX-5 I can't speak to too much. I thought it did take balanced inputs in BMWs. Speaker though, not certain of. 

On the BT front, I will need to go back and revisit what we did. The audio OP of the BT module seemed to be speaker level, varying with HU volume. What happens if you tie the BT OP DIRECTLY to the PA speaker? Can you hear sound then? I think we ended up with two handsfree speakers paralleled on that output, PLUS the OE midranges in the doors paralleled in as well for better voice reproduction - but I never came up with a great reason why I couldn't get the amp to work, and I was never thrilled with the result. I hates getting my ass kicked.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

VP Electricity said:


> With an e39 I would go straight into the SLDIN cable. The BLT is only needed in my experience with newer Logic 7 systems with higher output power than the HU has. I was surprised to see Zapco recommend the BLT in that application since they were the ones who told me to go straight in. I have a friend with an E39 sport with DSP and that's what we did in that car with a DC360 and a DC500.
> 
> However, the SL DIN cable carries signal grounds with the signal pairs AND a seperate ground shield. I would extend both of them. You will have horrible noise without one or both of these grounded (I would extend both so that you can test either way). Zapco recommends grounding to the HU chassis, but I have never seen that needed. One time I went to tune the car and the signal ground wire was floating and the noise was the scariest thing - you would have sworn your amp was blowed up and stuff : )



You mean cut the cable and solder the speaker outputs directly to the wire?

That is what they told me the BLT would do, that it has a "bypass" for the extra crap and I could just wire it to the outputs from the floating tuner module in the back and go from that to the SLDIN cables.


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## HIS4 (Oct 6, 2005)

el_chupo_ said:


> You mean cut the cable and solder the speaker outputs directly to the wire?
> 
> That is what they told me the BLT would do, that it has a "bypass" for the extra crap and I could just wire it to the outputs from the floating tuner module in the back and go from that to the SLDIN cables.


Sounds like you and I are in the same situation. I have an E90 M3 and while to me it makes more sense to tap the full range balanced line out of the HU, Zapco is telling me to tap the speaker level outputs of the amp with the BTL totally ignoring the fact that the amp has processing in it and doesn't output full range signals on any of the outputs. So you would have to sum outputs to get a full range signal.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

No, HIS4, the e90 has real _balanced_ outputs from the HU. The E46 and non-Bangle BMWs like the E39 and E53 have speaker outputs from the HU. 

I replied to your email. 

Zapco seems to have changed their tune regarding running BMW signals with speaker-level outputs right in the Symbilink port. I have a few theories about why this is, but I have done it multiple times with the non-Bangle cars without a BTL, so I see no reason to change. 

In one E46 coupe, we did the OEM HU speaker outputs straight into the Symbilink input to a DC650 to Elate tweeters (50W), Elate 6.5 woofers (100W), and a single 10" woofer (180W bridged). The front end of that car would make you cry, it sounded so good. I cannot believe that using a BTL instead would have made it any better, and suspect it would have made it just a little worse (why add R/C circuits you don't need?)


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

VP Electricity said:


> No, HIS4, the e90 has real _balanced_ outputs from the HU. The E46 and non-Bangle BMWs like the E39 and E53 have speaker outputs from the HU.
> 
> I replied to your email.
> 
> ...




Im with you on not adding extra circuits, but I dont want to cut a symbilink and then have to buy another... This is what I found on an E90 forum:



> The BTL also have JUMPER.and if you select the correct jumper position, this will by pass the internal BTL resistor and capacitor.
> so the signal from the HU get directly to the Zapco amp.
> when use in this jumper configuration, the BTL just make your life easier by providing the terminal for you to connect the BMW HU speaker level cables.


I am using a 650.6 as well, so this is interesting. 
Do you happen to have the wire guide that the symbilink uses, what each wire is for?


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

That's the beautiful thing about the Internet. We get all this information and then we get to decide who is full of it and who isn't. 

I know about the jumpers on a BTL. Funny thing is, if that poster were actually correct about what the jumpers DO, then wouldn't a BTL just be a complicated Symbilink-to-bare wire-adapter? 

It isn't. The jumpers CHANGE the capacitance and resistance, but they don't take it all out - they can't. I have seen the schematic for one of these (might even be on the back f the package) and I remember that the jumpers only take some resistance and some capacitance out of the circuit. 

If you really don't want to chop your symbilink cable, then find someone with a ton of RCA-input Symbilink transmitters that went unused, and are sitting in their shop (or in my case my garage), get one or two of those, chop the female end off, strip that back, wire that to the car, and then use an unmodifed M-to-M symbilink from there to the amp. 

If you can't find a Sym pinout I can transcribe it off the back of one of the Symbilink packages. If you have a NIB cable the diagram is on the back of the box insert.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

VP Electricity said:


> That's the beautiful thing about the Internet. We get all this information and then we get to decide who is full of it and who isn't.
> 
> I know about the jumpers on a BTL. Funny thing is, if that poster were actually correct about what the jumpers DO, then wouldn't a BTL just be a complicated Symbilink-to-bare wire-adapter?
> 
> ...


I happen to have a NIB cable in the garage now, the rest I dont have packages for any more.

I have 2 of the BTL and 2 of the regular transmitters, so that would work. 

Along the same lines, what about using Doug Bakers plan, wiring female RCA ends to the Metra harness/speaker outs, and then using the symbilink transmitters? wouldn't this give a higher voltage to the amps?

Just kicking out ideas, throw out if Im crazy...


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

The problem is that when I have run balanced signals into the RCA-to-Symbilink adapters, bad things have happened, I believe due to the fact that the RCA input on the trnamsitters either grounds the RCA shield or commons the L and R RCA shield (or both) and you can't do that with a balanced signal (or a speaker level signal either). So as far as getting HU-speaker-outputs in a BMW E39 into a Zapco, you wanna go straight into the Symbilink cable, or use a BTL if you feel worried - but leave those RCA transmitters out. 

(Unless you hack the ends off as I described : )


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## MarkyD (Nov 27, 2008)

OK, I'm changing directions a bit due to some new budget constraints.
I'm nixing the DSP removal for now, and going with drop-in replacement front stage mid-bass and tweets from Bavarian Soundwerks. I know, not ideal, but it should sound a lot better than what I've got.
I'm still going to have to add a modest sub/amp, though, that doesn't take up a lot of space. I thought about going with a couple Pioneer Premier shallow mount 8" subs under the front seats, but there is NO clearance under there.

So, I need to find a pretty cheap amp/sub/box solution for the trunk that I can DIY. The search is on...


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Feel like glassing? 

I have a mold to make a side-firing 10" that nestles on top of the battery door and lets you get at the spare without removal... you could probably do a 12 if you brought it out...

If you don't have the skipass you will have to vent your trunk wall...


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## MarkyD (Nov 27, 2008)

VP Electricity said:


> Feel like glassing?
> 
> I have a mold to make a side-firing 10" that nestles on top of the battery door and lets you get at the spare without removal... you could probably do a 12 if you brought it out...
> 
> If you don't have the skipass you will have to vent your trunk wall...


that sounds appealing. I've never done any fiberglass work, but the guys at Advantage Audio could surely help me here...
I DO have the ski pass. This sounds like it could be fun...


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## slvrtsunami (Apr 18, 2008)

there is also the old tried and true method of sticking a box in the ski pass. BTW, do you have ANY form of factory subs under the rear deck?


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Hey, my way is tried and true - I've tried it and it works great 

E39 DSP sedans usually have a flat ABS ported enclosure with two "long-throw" 130mm/5.25 woofers, from Nokia, I believe.


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## slvrtsunami (Apr 18, 2008)

VP Electricity said:


> Hey, my way is tried and true - I've tried it and it works great
> 
> E39 DSP sedans usually have a flat ABS ported enclosure with two "long-throw" 130mm/5.25 woofers, from Nokia, I believe.


 
Yes, you are right, it is tried and true. However, he can also easily build a panel to replace the 'Nokia' bass enclosure (if you can even call it that), mount a single 12" free air and put a medium to small amp with a built in crossover and be done! no glassing no fabricating a box and he can still use his ski pass!

just a different way to cook pasta.


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## Technic (Oct 10, 2008)

VP Electricity said:


> No, HIS4, the e90 has real _balanced_ outputs from the HU. The *E46* and non-Bangle BMWs like the E39 and E53 have speaker outputs from the HU.


The E46 OEM HU/Nav tuner are also truly balanced outputs in the USA... there was never any DSP amp in any E46, regardless of being Harman Kardon system or stock or model year.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Technic said:


> The E46 OEM HU/Nav tuner are also truly balanced outputs in the USA... there was never any DSP amp in any E46, regardless of being Harman Kardon system or stock or model year.


I agree that the E46 had no DSP. 

But I disagree about the speaker out from the E46 Navi tuner. I think it is speaker. Are you saying that the amp for the navi systems was a different PN than the amp for the non-navi systems? I think I looked into this and found they were the same... I don't think they went true low-voltage balanced until the E83. 

Did an upgrade with an E46 M3 with Navi a few years back, and I recall the signal out of the tuner being the same voltage out as the regular HUs...

It's almost immaterial. The BMW speaker-level outs from the tuner are low-voltage enough to run into balanced inputs without clipping, and high enough where you can run them into a passive LOC and not lose all your voltage. So it's almost academic.


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## Technic (Oct 10, 2008)

VP Electricity said:


> I agree that the E46 had no DSP.
> 
> But I disagree about the speaker out from the E46 Navi tuner. I think it is speaker. Are you saying that the amp for the navi systems was a different PN than the amp for the non-navi systems? I think I looked into this and found they were the same... I don't think they went true low-voltage balanced until the E83.
> 
> ...


I used to have three E46 OEM HU/Tuners, the Business CD, the Business Tuner and the Professional Tuner (Euro, the best sounding of all three). All three had +5V and -5V in their speaker leads, and when I tried to connect them straight to non-balanced amps it sounded like crap. However, I don't like to connect BMW OEM HU outputs directly to amps, balanced or not, so I always use either a Matrix or a LC6i for better tuning and elimination of hiss. 

So for all practical purposes you are correct, it is academic.


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## MarkyD (Nov 27, 2008)

VP Electricity said:


> Hey, my way is tried and true - I've tried it and it works great
> 
> E39 DSP sedans usually have a flat ABS ported enclosure with two "long-throw" 130mm/5.25 woofers, from Nokia, I believe.


Yes, it has the nokia 5.25" "woofers..."
I use that term lightly.

Something in IB up in the rear deck would not be a bad idea, but I'm going to have to deaden the crap out of that to prevent rattles.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

I am always worried about IB through the rear deck due to rattles of all that trim. I know others have done it with good results so I believe it can be done... but it seems like more work than firing through the ski pass, that's for sure. And those vents in the R deck are TINY...


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