# Ways of raising the soundstage...



## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Just curious, does anyone have any experience with the CDT "Upstage" tweeter kits? Are there better options for bringing the soundstage up higher?

Don't get me wrong, the Kappa 62.9i's sound pretty good since they've broken in, and with the angled tweeters aimed up towards the dome light, they sound fairly decent right off the stock HU. However, even with the angled tweeters, the soundstage still lingers around my knees, so...

What I was thinking, and I know this goes against the rules around here, but I was thinking of getting a pair of efficient tweeters with the corresponding crossovers, then powering them off of the HU. Powering them with the HU being the "against the rules" part.

The thinking behind this is that I imagine these "upstage" tweeters would be playing much lower than the rest of the system, and for that reason plus their high efficiency, the 14 watts RMS or so of your typical aftermarket HU would be plenty of power. 

Since I wouldn't be able to adjust the gain on these (unless I bought one of the CDT kits that comes with an attenuator), I would have to compensate by boosting the gains on the amp going to the main speakers.

Any thoughts?


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## traceywatts (Jun 2, 2008)

physically raise the stage


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Well, other than physically raising the soundstage, how else can it be done?

Just as a note, this is my DD so it's not being done for show quality, just for decent sound quality for my 100+ mile trip every day.


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## monkeyboy (Jun 12, 2007)

speakers in the doors, or kicks?

Look out for reflections from the doors, or other panels around the speakers. Try to tame any stray rattles. Either of those will drag your stage down fast.

You don't need to physically raise your stage. My speakers are low, and my stage is mid windshield. it just takes work.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

monkeyboy said:


> speakers in the doors, or kicks?
> 
> Look out for reflections from the doors, or other panels around the speakers. Try to tame any stray rattles. Either of those will drag your stage down fast.
> 
> You don't need to physically raise your stage. My speakers are low, and my stage is mid windshield. it just takes work.


The speakers are in the typical spot in the doors, low down in the doors. 

So far, there are no rattles anywhere in the car except for somewhere in the the passenger side rear door. If I run the fader all the way to the front, there's no rattles of any kind.

As for reflections, how would those be addressed? Also, do you have a pic of your front stage?

Just so everyone knows what I'm working with here, here's a pic of my Cube...









And here's one of the doors with the Kappa installed with an XTC foam baffle behind it...


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## monkeyboy (Jun 12, 2007)

Speakers in the doors make it harder since the path lengths are not as close as with a kick panel mounted speaker.

My front stage is a little odd, but it works for me. mids are in the floorboards as wide and far as I could get them. I run horns under the dash.

Not sure where the reflections are in your car, you will need to experiment and find them. Usually any panel within a few inches of a speaker are a good place to start. Like if the tweeter was right up against the space where the dash and the door meet.

I don't have any recent pics of my front stage, but there is a build thread in the build forum. Much has changed since then though.


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

Equalizing pathlegths and eliminating reflections does not raise the stage...if it should then people with pillar installs should have poor stage height. In my experience, it is much more of a function of having a smooth and extended frequency response.


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## huuplah (Jan 25, 2010)

> Equalizing pathlegths and eliminating reflections does not raise the stage...if it should then people with pillar installs should have poor stage height. In my experience, it is much more of a function of having a smooth and extended frequency response.


what exactly are you suggesting?


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

Smooth out peaks and dips with an eq.


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## LunarDD (May 17, 2009)

I see that you are useing foam baffles. I have had best luck with them by makeing the hard so they dont flex. I have tried a lot of dif ways but the best results for me are. Tapeing the inside with that foil aluminum tape from lowes its got a Thinthin layer of clay on the inside .(I think they call it roof patch) Then i come back covering the whole thing with just foil tape. That works pretty good.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

That and phasing.



invecs said:


> Smooth out peaks and dips with an eq.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

LunarDD said:


> I see that you are useing foam baffles. I have had best luck with them by makeing the hard so they dont flex. I have tried a lot of dif ways but the best results for me are. Tapeing the inside with that foil aluminum tape from lowes its got a Thinthin layer of clay on the inside .(I think they call it roof patch) Then i come back covering the whole thing with just foil tape. That works pretty good.


I was told in my build thread by another member that I should cut a hole in them to let the speakers breathe which should improve bass/midbass output. As it is right now, I'm getting zero bass of any kind of the the Infinity's. But I'm thinking that the PVC adapter rings might have something to do with that as well as the top and bottom halves of these adapters have open gaps in them, venting the rear waves of the cones right to the front, canceling out any bass they "could" make.

With that in mind, I bought a brick of duct seal at work today. For those who don't know, it's like modeling clay as it never hardens. I'm going to use this stuff to seal up the entire sides of the adapters. I hope that this will regain some if not most of my bass/midbass in the front doors again.


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## bikerider (Dec 28, 2008)

I would vent or discard the foam baskets. Also, if you can adjust via EQ, try a bit of boost in the 2kHz range. Also you can try reversing the speaker polarity to see if that helps. Short answer is that there is no short answer, you will need to experiment to see what works best for your car and install.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

bikerider said:


> I would vent or discard the foam baskets. Also, if you can adjust via EQ, try a bit of boost in the 2kHz range. Also you can try reversing the speaker polarity to see if that helps. Short answer is that there is no short answer, you will need to experiment to see what works best for your car and install.


If anything, I'll vent the baffles as I really don't want water getting splashed on the drivers as much as possible. I can't EQ yet as I only have the stock HU still. The Kenwood that I have listed in my sig is on back order. Also, I can't see why boosting in the 2kHz range would possibly help in the bass/midbass region. 2kHz is well into the midrange area, although that area does need some help too as vocals seem to get lost in complex passages. Polarity is correct as I already tried reversing them when I first installed them. When they were reversed, they were nothing more than 6.5" tweeters! LOL

I noticed you also have a Nissan. Are you using those same black PVC adapter rings from eBay in your car for your midbass drivers?

These are the ones I'm using and you can clearly see the gaps. I can't imagine why they designed them this way. It's just stupid.


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> That and phasing.


I have no EQ, no TA, and no other cool processing. I spent about an hour this past Saturday playing with the phasing of my woofers and tweeters and writing down every change I made with each speaker and continuously playing the same song. 
This made a huge difference. I actually enjoy listening to my system now.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Notloudenuf said:


> I have no EQ, no TA, and no other cool processing. I spent about an hour this past Saturday playing with the phasing of my woofers and tweeters and writing down every change I made with each speaker and continuously playing the same song.
> This made a huge difference. I actually enjoy listening to my system now.


How exactly did you adjust phasing of your drivers if without DSP and such. I'm using coaxial's, so I don't have many choices.


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

You could swap speaker wire polarities.


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

SQ_Blaze said:


> How exactly did you adjust phasing of your drivers if without DSP and such. I'm using coaxial's, so I don't have many choices.


Sorry I wasn't clear, it was just swapping the +/- wires so technically I switched the polarity.  whoops 

I used this thread http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-tutorials/33740-simple-way-tune-courtesy-cmusic.html as a guide.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Notloudenuf said:


> Sorry I wasn't clear, it was just swapping the +/- wires so technically I switched the polarity.  whoops
> 
> I used this thread http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-tutorials/33740-simple-way-tune-courtesy-cmusic.html as a guide.


Yeah, that doesn't work too well in my situation.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Seeing those Infinitys just dredges up all the tspence posts in my mind.

I find that playing a speaker above its beaming frequency will lower the stage. In the end, its all about FR that your ears get.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

traceywatts said:


> physically raise the stage


iawtc


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

SQ_Blaze said:


> Yeah, that doesn't work too well in my situation.


Why not? I can see that you don't have EQ, so you could skip those steps. But the first steps about switching polarity might be really helpful, and would still be a worthwhile exercise I think.


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## deesz (Feb 1, 2010)

how about removing that foam baffle. I do not like those everytime I have heard/seen one installed it sounded poor.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Any question of "how to raise a stage" should begin by asking, and understanding, how our ears recognize "height" in the first place. Doesn't that make sense?

Otherwise, you'll get loads of random answers about midbass enclosures and minimizing PLD's. These will invariably be followed by recommendations about amplifiers and interconnects. Who to "believe" .... ????

And by the way, swapping +/- speaker leads is identical to a polarity change, which is identical to a 180 degree phase shift. Don't let anyone tell you different.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Sound localization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## traceywatts (Jun 2, 2008)

Patrick and lycan, after raising my stage to a ridiculous height, i am now having trouble with the width. would the equilateral triangle work for me IF i am able to accomplish this in my car? also, since my head is not perfectly still, is it better to be on a 55/55/70 triangle, or 65/65/50, with 60/60/60 being optimal? im trying to make the most out of my placements in my install.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

94VG30DE said:


> Why not? I can see that you don't have EQ, so you could skip those steps. But the first steps about switching polarity might be really helpful, and would still be a worthwhile exercise I think.


Because, all I am working with is a pair of coaxial speakers. Reversing the polarity of one will cancel out a whole lot of frequencies. Plus I already did this when I was installing the drivers. Everything was totally thin and they were reduced to the equivalent of 6.5" tweeters. Not to mention they sounded like they were 20' apart.

If I had separates, 2-way or 3-way, that would be a different story.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

SQ_Blaze said:


> Because, all I am working with is a pair of coaxial speakers. Reversing the polarity of one will cancel out a whole lot of frequencies. Plus I already did this when I was installing the drivers. Everything was totally thin and they were reduced to the equivalent of 6.5" tweeters. Not to mention they sounded like they were 20' apart.
> 
> If I had separates, 2-way or 3-way, that would be a different story.


Oh, I missed the part where you said you had coaxials. That's my bad. You could reverse the leads at the tweeter (maybe) if you are super fancy with a soldering iron, but probably not worth it. I think you might be right in that if you already swapped polarity on the each speaker, then you are probably the best you can be for being non-active and no EQ.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

94VG30DE said:


> Oh, I missed the part where you said you had coaxials. That's my bad. You could reverse the leads at the tweeter (maybe) if you are super fancy with a soldering iron, but probably not worth it. I think you might be right in that if you already swapped polarity on the each speaker, then you are probably the best you can be for being non-active and no EQ.


No worries. 

I did just get done venting the foam baffles and sealing up those speaker adapter gaps. These mods definitely helped. The Infinity's finally have some nice punchy bass. Also, the midrange has improved as well, being moved up front instead of getting lost in the music. Vocals are pretty much where they should be now. 

And in doing all of this, the soundstage has come up some. Nothing drastic mind you, but it has helped. 

One thing I have noticed though, and wish I had noticed before putting the doors back together is that even though they are in phase with each other, they seem to be out of phase with the rear speakers. Maybe I'll have time a little later this evening to fix that. We'll see. 

And speaking of seeing, here's a few pics of today's activities...


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## bikerider (Dec 28, 2008)

SQ_Blaze said:


> I noticed you also have a Nissan. Are you using those same black PVC adapter rings from eBay in your car for your midbass drivers?[/IMG]


No, mine are 1" thick MDF. Here is a picture:


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Well I did get a chance to reverse the polarity of the Kappa's, and that made all the difference in the world. They were 180 degrees out from the rear speakers. 

I still would like to find out if adding some tweeters in the stock A-pillar locations would help bring up the soundstage though.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

I know that no matter what, the Kappa 62.9i's in the front doors will be moved to the rear doors eventually, hopefully sooner than later. Don't get me wrong, they aren't terrible, and they are much better than the stockers, but they are not very impressive either and I know I won't be happy with them as the heart of my front stage.

In the attempt to get a really nice sounding front stage as well as getting a decently high front stage, I'm going to have to go with a 2-way component setup. I'm also entertaining the idea of going with a 3-way setup (passive to start out with). 

If I go with a 3-way system, I'd like it to have a dome midrange for mounting depth reasons. Also, I'm not too sure on where to mount the drivers for good results. The midbass would have to go in the doors, but what about the mids and tweeters? I was thinking in the stock kick panels? If so, that means the dome mids would be firing straight across the floor under the dash (as I've seen done on here many times before - it must work with success). And with the tweeters, would I mount them on the edges of the kick panels aimed up towards the dome light?

Here's a few pics to show what I have to work with...

Driver's side


















Passenger side


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I'd probably vote you go with a competent active 2way first. A solid SB acoustics or Tangband ceramic tweet might be a great pillar tweet.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Why go 2-way and how could you get good integration with the midbass in the door and tweeter in the A-pillar? The distance between the two is too great I think.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Oh, and as far as tweeters are concerned, I have a pair of Dayton's from my old Blazer install which was an active 2-way...

Parts-Express.comayton DC28F-8 1-1/8" Silk Dome Tweeter | tweeter dc28f-8 silk dome tweeter dome tweeter soft dome dayton audio dayton loudspeaker dayton dayton silky daytweet-41108 daytontweets090109


But also looking at these SB Acoustics. 

SB-Acoustics SB29RDC-C000-4 Ring Dome tweeter from Madisound

But what I would really like is to have them mounted behind the stock grills, which means going with small format tweeters. That is if I am to mount them in the A-pillars.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Anybody else like to comment?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Per Buwalda's very convincing argument about stage imaging:

If you are going 2-way, and A-pillar, cross the tweeters over at 4k approximately. Any lower, and you are better off with the tweeter right next to the woofer. For instance, if your mids will not play cleanly with low distortion with a 4k crossover point, then you are better off with the tweeter next to the woofer. 

The link:
Buwalda Hybrids International Bulletin Board • View topic - My views on tweeters and crossovers

Very strong argument.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> Per Buwalda's very convincing argument about stage imaging:
> 
> If you are going 2-way, and A-pillar, cross the tweeters over at 4k approximately. Any lower, and you are better off with the tweeter right next to the woofer. For instance, if your mids will not play cleanly with low distortion with a 4k crossover point, then you are better off with the tweeter next to the woofer.
> 
> ...


That was a good read! Thanks!

So I could possibly go with a pair of these...
HD-6 - CDT Audio High Defintion 6.5" Midrange/Midbass Drivers


And a pair of these in the A-pillars...
CAL 25 SILK VOF - Rainbow Germanium 1" Tweeters


And I should be able to cross them at 5kHz and integrate them well from what I gather. That was an issue I had in the Blazer as I had the 6.5's rolling off near 5kHz and ran the tweeters down around 2kHz. The exact opposite of what I should have done.

I can decide to keep my JL 300/4 v2 amp and use the built-in crossover as I did before for the front stage, though its limit is 5kHz, but can be at either 12dB or 24dB per octave.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Jesus! For $500 you could do a LOT better. 

Here, this is solid:
SEAS Prestige 27TFFNC/CG (H1406) 1" Textile Dome Tweeter from Madisound

Cross them at 4k maybe, maybe just a but lower.

And here's a solid driver, most people like them I think:
SEAS Prestige CA18RLY (H1217) 7" Coated Paper Cone from Madisound

And so, now you're only in it for $189, but you have a killer setup.

Once you start playing in the 400-500 range, why not go HAT Clarus, or H-Audio (I did.) Something with extended mid-range response.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Oh, and check this out:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...audio-daytona-display-speakers-fs-bnib-2.html

He's got some at 25% off! Go get 'em!


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> Jesus! For $500 you could do a LOT better.
> 
> Here, this is solid:
> SEAS Prestige 27TFFNC/CG (H1406) 1" Textile Dome Tweeter from Madisound
> ...


Well for one, I wouldn't be able to mount that tweeter "behind" the stock A-pillar grill, and that midbass is only good up to 3kHz. According to that other link and from what you said earlier, I should be crossing over at 5kHz or higher for both drivers.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

SQ_Blaze said:


> Well for one, I wouldn't be able to mount that tweeter "behind" the stock A-pillar grill, and that midbass is only good up to 3kHz. According to that other link and from what you said earlier, I should be crossing over at 5kHz or higher for both drivers.



What do you mean it is only good to 3k? That thing will play cleanly up to 6k and beyond! 

There are literally 20 good tweeters out there, check out partsexpress, madisound, and look at Zaphaudio's reviews on things for a start.

All of it at least 1/2 the price you showed on your last research run. Again, for ~$500 you can buy a LOT in the DIY field.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Wow, the classifieds are chock full of killer deals.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...lpine-premier-prs-image-dynamics-kenwood.html


PRS720's are sweet! They'll do exactly what you want. I have no doubt.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> What do you mean it is only good to 3k? That thing will play cleanly up to 6k and beyond!
> 
> There are literally 20 good tweeters out there, check out partsexpress, madisound, and look at Zaphaudio's reviews on things for a start.
> 
> All of it at least 1/2 the price you showed on your last research run. Again, for ~$500 you can buy a LOT in the DIY field.


I'm all for getting a lot for the money. If those Seas drivers play cleanly that high, I'd be more than happy to try them, especially for less than 70 bucks each! I wonder how well they'd fit in a hole made for a 6.5" driver, or if they would at all. Looks like they could maybe.


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## bikerider (Dec 28, 2008)

SQ_Blaze said:


> I'm all for getting a lot for the money. If those Seas drivers play cleanly that high, I'd be more than happy to try them, especially for less than 70 bucks each! *I wonder how well they'd fit in a hole made for a 6.5" driver, or if they would at all. Looks like they could maybe.*


I'd worry first whether your mounting ring can handle them (as far as cutout diameter). I am in the process of upgrading drivers and most of the DIY 6.5"/7" drivers require a cutout of at least 5.75". That's a bit bigger than most 6.5 off the shelf car speakers require. Usually the magnet diameter is quite a bit smaller than the speaker cutout and they fit in the door opening with little or no rework.

The rings I posted above barely fit my Cadence mids (they are a tight fit), I will have to remake them or modify them when I put new drivers in. Those Seas are on my list, already have the Tang Band ceramic tweeters on the way.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Right now, for the money... the PRS720's in the classifieds are probably the superior choice. At the very least the woofers are. They are world-class, especially in the midrange.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

bikerider said:


> I'd worry first whether your mounting ring can handle them (as far as cutout diameter). I am in the process of upgrading drivers and most of the DIY 6.5"/7" drivers require a cutout of at least 5.75". That's a bit bigger than most 6.5 off the shelf car speakers require. Usually the magnet diameter is quite a bit smaller than the speaker cutout and they fit in the door opening with little or no rework.
> 
> The rings I posted above barely fit my Cadence mids (they are a tight fit), I will have to remake them or modify them when I put new drivers in. Those Seas are on my list, already have the Tang Band ceramic tweeters on the way.


Yeah, I've thought about that. The adapter rings I have have a 5.5" cutout. The Seas drivers need a 5.71" cutout, so I could take the dremel to them and shave that little bit off of them.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> Right now, for the money... the PRS720's in the classifieds are probably the superior choice. At the very least the woofers are. They are world-class, especially in the midrange.


They are tempting, but I need to hold on to my funds for other things at the moment. 

Also, what's the difference between the PSR720's and these? is it just that the PSR's are their Premier line with a 2 year warranty?...
Parts-Express.comioneer TS-D1720C 6-3/4" Component Speaker System | Pioneer TS-1720C 6-3/4" Component Speaker System Component Speaker System Speaker System 6 3/4" Speakers 6-3/4" Speaker System


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

The TS-D line is a huge step down from the TS-C. The TS-C have awesome midbass and midrange. I am surprised you haven't picked them up yet. If I didn't already have a "plan" with Mpyers, Founteks, and Dayton tweets, I'd pick those 720's up with the quickness. But there are some better tweeters, maybe the Tangband ceramics or SB Acoustics.

Here's a review:
http://caraudiomag.com/articles/pioneer-premier-ts-c720prs-review-components

And on this forum Npdang measured them on the Kippel.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> The TS-D line is a huge step down from the TS-C. The TS-C have awesome midbass and midrange. I am surprised you haven't picked them up yet. If I didn't already have a "plan" with Mpyers, Founteks, and Dayton tweets, I'd pick those 720's up with the quickness. But there are some better tweeters, maybe the Tangband ceramics or SB Acoustics.
> 
> Here's a review:
> Pioneer Premier TS-C720PRS-Review Components Review - Speakers Reviews - Car Audio and Electronics
> ...


Well if they're still available in a couple of weeks, I'll try to get them. If they're not around by then, I'll get the Seas or something else that you or someone else may suggest.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Yeah things like that usually don't last long in the classifieds.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

traceywatts said:


> Patrick and lycan, after raising my stage to a ridiculous height, i am now having trouble with the width. would the equilateral triangle work for me IF i am able to accomplish this in my car? also, since my head is not perfectly still, is it better to be on a 55/55/70 triangle, or 65/65/50, with 60/60/60 being optimal? im trying to make the most out of my placements in my install.


Getting a lot of width in the car is tricky. Generally I've found that the location of the speaker(s) which are playing 1600hz and below makes the greatest impact on the width and depth of the stage. It's (relatively) easy to create a deep stage by placing the midbasses as far back as humanly possible. All the way to the firewall if possible.

Pushing that driver back to the firewall also improves the pathlength difference, and this helps center the stage.

But that still leaves the problem that the width is confined to the corners of the car.

Personally, I can live with this. Even at home my speakers are only three feet apart, yet I could easily widen the stage. The problem is that a "hole" develops in the center as you move the speakers apart.

Cross firing the speakers "fills in" the hole, but the entire stage becomes more diffuse.

Again; these are all compromises I can personally live with. YMMV. For me, these factors are important in soundstaging:


A really good center image. I haaaaaate it when the image is "stuck" on one side.
A really deep stage. If I could figure out a way to get the center image out on the edge of the hood, I'd be all over it  IIRC, Mark Eldridge mounted speakers in THE HEADLIGHTS in one of his cars :O
Good coherency. IE, don't go so crazy with the front stage that the subs are closer to you than the front stage!

What locations are you currently using?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

fourthmeal said:


> Per Buwalda's very convincing argument about stage imaging:
> 
> If you are going 2-way, and A-pillar, cross the tweeters over at 4k approximately. Any lower, and you are better off with the tweeter right next to the woofer. For instance, if your mids will not play cleanly with low distortion with a 4k crossover point, then you are better off with the tweeter next to the woofer.
> 
> ...



It would be awesome to 'talk shop' with Buwalda and Lycan one of these days. These guys have put a lot of thought into what works and what doesn't. I wonder if Lycan goes to CES?


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## traceywatts (Jun 2, 2008)

I have a "dual stage" setup. it works pretty well. l-r-l-r. the speakers are approx 2 ft from hy head and from each other. the outboard speakers are at the apex of the a-pillar where it meets the roof. the inboard speakers are along the roof centerline and angled toward the listener. the line of sight from the drivers seat is l-r-r, with the outboard "r" as a physical "delay" . the pasenger "sees" l-l-r. I currently have ac 130f1's (larger speakers sound more "dynamic"), but am thinking of switching to the smaller ex88's in order to hit the elusive equilateral triangle without egress problems. my midbass is located in the door about 2 ft from my head, but i am switching to an array of three in each door.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

traceywatts said:


> I have a "dual stage" setup. it works pretty well. l-r-l-r. the speakers are approx 2 ft from hy head and from each other. the outboard speakers are at the apex of the a-pillar where it meets the roof. the inboard speakers are along the roof centerline and angled toward the listener. the line of sight from the drivers seat is l-r-r, with the outboard "r" as a physical "delay" . the pasenger "sees" l-l-r. I currently have ac 130f1's (larger speakers sound more "dynamic"), but am thinking of switching to the smaller ex88's in order to hit the elusive equilateral triangle without egress problems. my midbass is located in the door about 2 ft from my head, but i am switching to an array of three in each door.


Not to high-jack my own thread, but do you have a picture of your front stage?


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## traceywatts (Jun 2, 2008)

i'll take pics in the morning. beware, im not the best installer, but local shops were unwilling to do this, saying that it wouldn't sound good (im hard-headed). now that i have a result for them to listen to (as well as rough example of the final product), i will get more able installers to do the fab work, maybe italyn stalyn or someone from here.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

traceywatts said:


> i'll take pics in the morning. beware, im not the best installer, but local shops were unwilling to do this, saying that it wouldn't sound good (im hard-headed). now that i have a result for them to listen to (as well as rough example of the final product), i will get more able installers to do the fab work, maybe italyn stalyn or someone from here.


I don't use installers for several reasons. 

1) They cost too much
2) They cut corners
3) They don't do things the way you want
4) I simply don't trust them


I'm not the best installer either, but at least I know what's gone into the install and that it's been done right and safe.

As it is, I'm still pondering the idea of going with a large format tweeter in the A-pillars and just covering the entire thing with grill cloth. I'm just not exactly sure on how to do the grill cloth covering.


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## traceywatts (Jun 2, 2008)

true on all counts. but i want this final? (lol) install to be done by someone with SKILLS (i possess nothing but imagination and determination)


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## traceywatts (Jun 2, 2008)

i dont know how to attach pics. send me your email and i'll forward them to you. feel free to post them.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Okay, so we have talked about the SEAS CA18RLY drivers for the doors which I have decided to go with. We haven't talked much about tweeters though. 

I would prefer to have the tweeters rear mounted in the stock A-pillar locations. I want this system to be as stealth as possible, meaning the stock locations being used. 

Since I want the tweeters in the A-pillars, which shoot straight across to each other, I need tweeters that have an excellent off-axis response. I think this typically means a smaller tweeter such as a 0.75" or even better yet, a 0.50" unit. 

Keep in mind that these will be crossed over around 4-5kHz so power handling shouldn't be an issue, even for a small 0.50" driver. 

I was originally thinking about these little TB's... Parts-Express.com:Tang Band 13-1761S 1/2" Silk Dome Tweeter Pair | Tang Band 13-1761S tang band tb speakers dome tweeter silk dome fabric dome soft dome but not too sure. Maybe some of the small Dayton's, or maybe just a good set of car tweeters?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

SQ_Blaze said:


> Okay, so we have talked about the SEAS CA18RLY drivers for the doors which I have decided to go with. We haven't talked much about tweeters though.
> 
> I would prefer to have the tweeters rear mounted in the stock A-pillar locations. I want this system to be as stealth as possible, meaning the stock locations being used.
> 
> ...



Take a peek at Zaph's info on tweeters, and the distortion / CSD plots. I chose the NFA20B for my setup but there are plenty of good ones:
Zaph|Audio


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> Take a peek at Zaph's info on tweeters, and the distortion / CSD plots. I chose the NFA20B for my setup but there are plenty of good ones:
> Zaph|Audio


I was looking through that site quite a bit yesterday actually and thought the Vifa D26NC55 looked pretty good. But of course then comes the problem of mounting them to the A-pillars.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

SQ_Blaze said:


> I was looking through that site quite a bit yesterday actually and thought the Vifa D26NC55 looked pretty good. But of course then comes the problem of mounting them to the A-pillars.


Well that's why I picked the NFA20B Dayton. They are cheap, cross at 3.5k+ safely and cleanly, and literally press-fit right in an A-pillar in a clean manner.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> Well that's why I picked the NFA20B Dayton. They are cheap, cross at 3.5k+ safely and cleanly, and literally press-fit right in an A-pillar in a clean manner.


Is there an equivalent to the NFA20B? It seems that that one is discontinued. It no longer show's up on their site.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Sorry, Parts-Express.comayton ND20FA-6 3/4" Neodymium Dome Tweeter | tweeter nd20fa-6 soft dome tweeter dome tweeter neodynium dayton audio dayton loudspeaker dayton daytontweets090109

It is the ND20FA


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Oh, okay, that works! No worries. 

Funny it even mentions A-pillars!


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

This is somewhere along the same line of questioning so I'm just going to jump in here and ask. How can I get the stage height/width on the left side of my car equal to the height/width on the right side? I've messed with different xover points then the right speakers as well as different slopes and I just can't seem to raise it up high or wide enough. I currently have 5 1/4" MB Quart Premiums installed in the kickpanels and I'm running them active with the tweeter mounted coaxially. I also have 8" Daytons in the doors. Any help is appreciated.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

If I had to guess, I'd say that one side of your car is off-axis, and one is on. You are probably getting different frequency responses and it is tricking your ears into believing the sound is coming from below. Mounted coaxially, you can cross in many different ways. It might be a good idea to turn off the tweeters and listen, and see if one driver sounds tonally different from another.


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

Thanks for the info guys, I'll try out a few of those things until I can get an external eq. I wanted my kicks both pointing to the middle but the shop actually put the drivers side pointing towards the middle and the passenger side pointed at the drivers seat so that might have something to do with it. I might also move the tweeters to the stock locations on the doors sails.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

beerdrnkr said:


> This is somewhere along the same line of questioning so I'm just going to jump in here and ask. How can I get the stage height/width on the left side of my car equal to the height/width on the right side? I've messed with different xover points then the right speakers as well as different slopes and I just can't seem to raise it up high or wide enough. I currently have 5 1/4" MB Quart Premiums installed in the kickpanels and I'm running them active with the tweeter mounted coaxially. I also have 8" Daytons in the doors. Any help is appreciated.


You cant.

But if you want to get about as close as you can, mount mid/tweet or fullrangers ON AXIS to your listening position, adjust amplitude appropriately to even out the difference in distance and then fine tune with some EQ and T/A for phase.

You want a good high stage with good tonality, this is the way to go.


You'd be shocked how much of a difference this can make. I'd ditch the kicks and install a good 3" fullrange or wideband driver with tweeter in the a-pillar dash corner are (mounted on axis) if I were you. Youve already got a good size midbass...


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

You know, with this entire discussion of using the SEAS CA18RLY drivers up to 4-5kHz, it totally escaped my mind about beaming at those frequencies from a 7" driver.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

SQ_Blaze said:


> You know, with this entire discussion of using the SEAS CA18RLY drivers up to 4-5kHz, it totally escaped my mind about beaming at those frequencies from a 7" driver.



Beaming isn't that big a deal. It can be compensated with EQ at the listening position anyway


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> Beaming isn't that big a deal. It can be compensated with EQ at the listening position anyway


How can EQ compensate for physics?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

SQ_Blaze said:


> How can EQ compensate for physics?



Because beaming just means you are going to have slightly less top end when listening off axis. Ergo, add some eq to the off-axis speaker if you think you need to.

Much to say about that topic
Buwalda Hybrids International Bulletin Board • View topic - My views on tweeters and crossovers


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

A 7" driver at 70 degrees off axis won't sound good crossed over at 4k with a pair of tweeters no matter who says it will or what brand it is. That's the law. Compensating for beaming with EQ is possible, but it doesn't sound very good because the on-axis sound will be reflected and will include a gaint peak at the frequencies where you've added output with the EQ. In a car, we hear the power response of the speaker and that power response is the sum of the direct sound and all the reflections. 

If you want a higher stage and have to use the factory locations for the midbass, then buy a component system and move the tweeters up. For a MUCH bigger improvement, buy a 3-way, mount the mids higher in the doors and the tweeters in the top of the doors. Cross the 6" below 1kHz and the 3" below 5kHz. Add some kind of a processor or head unit with time alignment for single seat optimization. If you need great imaging in both front seats, add a center channel in the top of the dash and use a processor with steering for the center.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> A 7" driver at 70 degrees off axis won't sound good crossed over at 4k with a pair of tweeters no matter who says it will or what brand it is. That's the law. Compensating for beaming with EQ is possible, but it doesn't sound very good because the on-axis sound will be reflected and will include a gaint peak at the frequencies where you've added output with the EQ. In a car, we hear the power response of the speaker and that power response is the sum of the direct sound and all the reflections.
> 
> If you want a higher stage and have to use the factory locations for the midbass, then buy a component system and move the tweeters up. For a MUCH bigger improvement, buy a 3-way, mount the mids higher in the doors and the tweeters in the top of the doors. Cross the 6" below 1kHz and the 3" below 5kHz. Add some kind of a processor or head unit with time alignment for single seat optimization. If you need great imaging in both front seats, add a center channel in the top of the dash and use a processor with steering for the center.


That's why I've been keeping a close eye on this set from Cadence... 

CVL3-WK - Cadence 6-1/2" 3-Way 400W CVL Series Super Fidelity Component Car Speaker System

I do have a spot at the top of the doors that would easily accept a nice dome mid with plenty of room behind it, but not a traditional cone mid. Plus dome mids are totally enclosed in the rear so no worries with enclosing them. I guess I could put the tweeters in the A-pillars or if they need to be closer to the mids, put them in the sails which are about 5-6" closer.

Plus even though I will be using an EQ eventually, I'd rather use very little EQ and do negative EQing, not positive EQing. I'd hate to use a bunch of EQ boost to compensate for off axis beaming just to get a major peak within the reflections.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Buy my three way set:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/78785-hoping-straight-trade-my-3-way-your-2-way.html


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> Buy my three way set:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/78785-hoping-straight-trade-my-3-way-your-2-way.html


I'll trade you my 2-ways for your 3-ways! 


Anybody have some thoughts on that Cadence set? I would eventually swap out the passive crossovers for an active one of course.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Something else I've been considering and would definitely save cash would be to do an entire Dayton 3-way front stage, using...

Dayton RS180-4 7" midbass
Dayton RS52AN-8 2" dome mid
Dayton ND20FA-6 .75" dome tweet


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Any thoughts on the Eclipse SC8365 set?


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> A 7" driver at 70 degrees off axis won't sound good crossed over at 4k with a pair of tweeters no matter who says it will or what brand it is. That's the law. Compensating for beaming with EQ is possible, but it doesn't sound very good because the on-axis sound will be reflected and will include a gaint peak at the frequencies where you've added output with the EQ. In a car, we hear the power response of the speaker and that power response is the sum of the direct sound and all the reflections.
> 
> If you want a higher stage and have to use the factory locations for the midbass, then buy a component system and move the tweeters up. For a MUCH bigger improvement, buy a 3-way, mount the mids higher in the doors and the tweeters in the top of the doors. Cross the 6" below 1kHz and the 3" below 5kHz. Add some kind of a processor or head unit with time alignment for single seat optimization. If you need great imaging in both front seats, add a center channel in the top of the dash and use a processor with steering for the center.


If there is ONE principle in audio i'd like to do a better job teaching, it's this :

Two point sources displaced in _distance_ from a listener, will result in the arrival of two wavefronts displaced in _time_. This _time delay_ results in a (pretty simple) _frequency response_: peaks & nulls at various (predictable) frequencies, from constructive & destructive interference at those different frequencies.

This basic principle explains _so much_: comb filtering, reflections, behavior of arrays, off-axis response of _any_ driver (to first order), ...


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

SQ_Blaze said:


> Something else I've been considering and would definitely save cash would be to do an entire Dayton 3-way front stage, using...
> 
> Dayton RS180-4 7" midbass
> Dayton RS52AN-8 2" dome mid
> Dayton ND20FA-6 .75" dome tweet


Dayton makes some great speakers. I currently use the 8's in my doors and love em. I also had the 6's in my doors at one point and they also sounded really good.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> It would be awesome to 'talk shop' with Buwalda and Lycan one of these days. These guys have put a lot of thought into what works and what doesn't. I wonder if Lycan goes to CES?


hate vegas. hate people.

I used to go. But my "fear & loathing" of Las Vegas  have gotten the best of me.

Happy to meet up sometime, in _any_ city ... with less than about a hundred people


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

Well I ended up getting my midbass on the drivers side above my dash by reversing the phase on the midrange drivers in the kicks on both sides along with reversing the phase on both midbass drivers in my doors. The tweeters are normal phase. Everything seems to be coming from above the dash but I still feel like it should be higher, around half way up the windshield. Anymore suggestions? Thanks again for the help and sorry for the thread jack...lol


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

SQ_Blaze said:


> Any thoughts on the Eclipse SC8365 set?


Anybody care to post up their thoughts on these?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I read a review of them that stated they are fine for what they are, basically a 3-way that operates in the domain of a 2-way. The suspected reason if I recall correctly was that each driver has some serious breakup in the cone, so a 3-way is virtually necessary to avoid ragged response. I'll have to dig.

On the upside, Eclipse is done for, so maybe you can get them cheap.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> I read a review of them that stated they are fine for what they are, basically a 3-way that operates in the domain of a 2-way. The suspected reason if I recall correctly was that each driver has some serious breakup in the cone, so a 3-way is virtually necessary to avoid ragged response. I'll have to dig.
> 
> On the upside, Eclipse is done for, so maybe you can get them cheap.


That's the thing, they're selling for less than 200 shipped! I didn't know Eclipse went under though. That kinda sucks as they produced some fine equipment over the years.

As far as the cone breakup, that shouldn't be an issue should it, considering that I keep the crossovers in place for now, then upgrade to fully active later, keeping the same crossover points and maybe steeper slopes?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Well you could definitely get some measurements but I imagine cone breakup has been well-enough controlled by the crossover points. IMO, its just a waste of drivers. I always like using the least amount of drivers necessary to obtain full frequency response. That's just been my method, as you can see others may vary. 

The thing about those 3-ways that they are a model of compromise, moreso than say, traditional DIY drivers in an active config.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

I was also thinking of getting a pair of HAT Legati L3's for an active 2-way and mount them in very small pods up in the corners of the dash and windshield (on axis), but I'm not sure on their top end extension. Their FR is rated at 129Hz-10kHz. Also, I'd have to cross them over kind of high due to the small pods they would be in. Probably upwards of 300Hz?

If I did this, I would also get one of those Kenwood amps with the DSP/TA built in.


Another option would be going with a pair of Dayton RS100-4's up top and a pair of RS180-4's in the doors. this would save a butt-load of money!

Any opinions on the RS100-4's?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Still got my Fountek FR-88EX drivers that can do some awesome midrange in a dash pod. Sold the Mpyre's but the rest is still avail.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> Still got my Fountek FR-88EX drivers that can do some awesome midrange in a dash pod. Sold the Mpyre's but the rest is still avail.


I was thinking about those actually as well. I would like to use them without a tweeter if possible. Just a nice, simple 2-way and on axis. Would those cut it or do they run into some nasties up high like the RS100's apparently do (I just read about that on the forum).


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

SQ_Blaze said:


> I was thinking about those actually as well. I would like to use them without a tweeter if possible. Just a nice, simple 2-way and on axis. Would those cut it or do they run into some nasties up high like the RS100's apparently do (I just read about that on the forum).


Zaph said they have high end breakup, typical of a paper-thin metal cone but otherwise they are great. I was going to do the exact same thing, but with a small tweeter right next to them with a simple 6dB/oct passive crossover. My research and studies into a new field for me (passive crossover design) made me uncertain of the design I should go with, so I decided instead to use a 4ch amp that has strong pre-amp crossover controls already onboard...aka the Soundstream Reference amps. They can cross at 4k hp front, 4k lp rear, and hp rear pretty high as well (to keep the fountek from playing too low.) Passive crossover component parts cost so much that I figured I'd be better making that money go towards a more suitable amp! And in the world of car audio, that's the case.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

As of now, I no longer have to worry about midbass drivers as I just purchased a pair of used HAT L6's with about 20 hours on them. All I have to do now is find a pair of good tweeters, possibly those Dayton ND20FA-6 tweeters.

I'm looking forward to getting those L6's though!


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Been looking around a bit at other options as I'm not too keen on going with tweeters with the L6's, especially at the distances they'll be from each other. So I'm thinking of going with a pair of Tang Band W3-1364SA drivers in some kind of "pods" on the dash. Or maybe a pair of Mark Audio Alpair 5's. Stereo Clarity Alpair 5


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Revisiting this thread again as I just thought of something and need to find out if it's a good idea or not.

As stated above, I have a pair of HAT L6's now. They're sitting right here in my living room on a stack of JL amps, the 300/4v2 and 300/2v2. Anyway, that's neither here or there.

The point of this post is to get some input on an idea I just thought up.

I was just reading through this thread about making really cheap, effective tweeter pods for A-pillars... http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-tutorials/53732-cheap-adjustable-easily-replaceable-tweeter-pods.html

This is a great idea and I would really like to go this route instead of glassing the A-pillars and making things obvious by wondering eyes through the windshield. 

What I propose is to either get a pair of really good tweeters with a low FS like the Vifa XT25SC90-04 ring radiator's and cross them over low around 1.7 - 2kHz, or go with a pair of TB W3-1364SA 3" bamboo drivers and run them somewhere around 200-400Hz. I'd much rather go with the TB's. 

Now what I want to do is build these pods and mount them at the very top of the A-pillars right next to the headliner or even a few inches down from there. Several reasons for doing this is that it will most definitely raise the sound stage (no doubt about that), I can adjust them for the perfect on-axis angle, AND (this is the main reason), I can have them "hidden" out of view behind the windshield tint strip that I'll have up there shortly. It will be a very dark tint strip and about 8" wide and the pods will be painted black. Nobody looks at the top of the windshield to look for speakers anyway, but the tint and the black pods will aid in hiding them in plain view.

As for ease of integration with both drivers at such a distance (and this is why I really want to go with the TB's), going with a lower crossover point, plus having five bands of equalization and T/A at my disposal, I think I should be able to pull this off with great success.

So what do you all think?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

captainobvious said:


> You cant.
> 
> But if you want to get about as close as you can, mount mid/tweet or fullrangers ON AXIS to your listening position, adjust amplitude appropriately to even out the difference in distance and then fine tune with some EQ and T/A for phase.
> 
> ...


There are plenty of ways to get a symmetrical stage, and you don't have to put your mids up high to get there. I agree that mounting the speakers at eye level *is* the ideal location, but there are some tricks you can do to get the stage at eye level, with the mids located in sub-par locations. (IE, *not* at eye-level.)

Directivity and reflections play a big part in this, and you're on the right track with a smaller midrange, since it will beam less.

(Not that beaming is necessarily a bad thing; it's just another variable to account for.)


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Funny how NONE of that had to do with anything in my most current post...


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Wow... Nothing?


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## pyropoptrt (Jun 11, 2006)

Have you considered making the tweeter as flush as possible in the a-pillar and covering the a-pillar with grill cloth?


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

pyropoptrt said:


> Have you considered making the tweeter as flush as possible in the a-pillar and covering the a-pillar with grill cloth?


Yes and no...

I could do that, but I'd much rather them be on-axis. Plus, if I were to flush a pair of tweeters in the typical location on the A-pillars, because of the way the pillars are shaped, the tweeters would be facing in towards the windshield, not directly across at each other.

Also, I would much rather go with 3" wide range drivers if possible to get as much of the midrange up top as I can.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

SQ_Blaze said:


> Funny how NONE of that had to do with anything in my most current post...


hahaHA. I was really curious about the answer to your question as well. I have the same spot in my car, and it looks like someone already had tweeters up there before, as there are holes in the a-pillar. I guess I could just try it... Any chance you can basically zip-tie your enclosures up there to see how it sounds?


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## pyropoptrt (Jun 11, 2006)

So...I'm not really sure I'm following. Are you doing a 2 way or 3 way? 

Based on this picture it doesn't look like it would be that hard to put a tweeter in the a-pillar and aim it however you want and hide it behind grill cloth.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

94VG30DE said:


> Any chance you can basically zip-tie your enclosures up there to see how it sounds?


I don't think so. The 3" PVC cap alone weighs a bit, then adding the TB driver to it will probably double it. It's probably going to be a pound or more up there. I can't see how I'd be able to zip-tie or velcro it up there.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

pyropoptrt said:


> So...I'm not really sure I'm following. Are you doing a 2 way or 3 way?
> 
> Based on this picture it doesn't look like it would be that hard to put a tweeter in the a-pillar and aim it however you want and hide it behind grill cloth.


It really doesn't matter if it's a 2-way or 3-way, but it is going to be a 2-way.

The thing about the A-pillars is that they angle in towards the windshield. You can see from the picture that the tweeter looks angled out towards the seats. It's not. It's angle so that it faces directly across to the other tweeter. And like I said, I don't want to mount tweeters down where they will be visible. Even with grill cloth over them, you'd see a hump there knowing that something is there.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

BTW, I brought home a 3" PVC cap yesterday and looked at the dimensions of the TB 3" bamboo driver. It will definitely fit. The cap is 3" I.D and 3.5" O.D. with a depth of 2.5". The TB is 3-5/8" overall, cutout of 3" and mounting depth of 2".

What kind of response can I expect out of such a tiny enclosure?


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

I would assume there would be a peak in the bass, but that _might_ be leveled off by the time you hit your 200hz crossover. No idea what response will be like though if you are basically placing it in no baffle (as the flange OD is larger than the cap OD, there is effectively no rounded baffle, just 90 deg angle and a rounded back). You would have to go back and read the "Improving your soundstage for $2" thread to see the effects of the sides vs the back of the enclosure. I think the diagrams are on the first or second pages, along with some articles that might cover it.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

I have been thinking about it a little more and visualizing the pods up there at the top of the windshield. Two things I came up with... 

1) I really don't like the idea of seeing those huge pods dangling up there all day long.

2) I'm really concerned about the physical weight of the pod/driver combo hanging off of the thin plastic A-pillars. 


So what I am thinking of now (I know, I change my mind more than my undies), is just getting the Vifa XT25SC90-04 ring radiator tweeters and putting them in much smaller, lighter pods up there in the same area towards the top of the windshield.

I have two questions about this...

1) *With EQ and T/A at my disposal, is there still a limit as to how far up the A-pillars I can have these pods?* I could still have them down a few inches from the very top which would put them just slightly above ear level.

2) *Should I have them exactly "on-axis" or should I have them both aimed right to the center of the car?* I'd like to offer a somewhat even sound for both me and my girlfriend if possible.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

What the heck kind of useless answer is that?


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks and sorry.

I got a little aggravated with such an answer, but I guess I needed to realize that it is in fact subjective more than anything else. 

I have been doing research on tweeters that have good off-axis response. So far two that really catch my eye in the somewhat "large format" arena is the Vifa that I mentioned above and the SB Acoustics SB29RDCN-C000-4. Both are ring radiators, both have a somewhat low FS so I can cross them over between 1.2kHz - 1.6kHz but the SB is said to have better distortion and possibly better frequency response.

Several reasons for crossing lower is because I want to minimize beaming coming from the HAT L6's in the bottoms of the doors, and if I choose to have the tweeters on or off axis, I want to know that I'll have good sound in both front seats.

I think I'm leaning towards the SB29RDCN-C000-4's now.


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## Sptsmed (Jan 20, 2010)

Did you ever decide on tweeters from the virtual plethora of possible ones ?


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## sqcomp (Sep 21, 2009)

Speaking from experience...the HAT L1 Pro SE's (and R2's) have excellent off axis response. That's a bandwagon answer...

A wide band mid range is a great choice as well. Take a look at the tweet/a-pillar thread. You should get some great ideas there. 

...and of course coming from me, the legatia mids have excellent off axis response so you can concentrate on speaker placement for imaging and stage accuracy. There should be NO NEED for a center channel at all! Yes, this is a blanket statement. I still haven't come across a reason in my installs that I'd ever need a center channel speaker. Perhaps there's a valid reason out there, I just haven't come across it yet.

^oh hey, look! I just put a target on myself because I like HAT. Damned bandwagon just ran me over!


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