# Apparantly eD treats HT customers the same as the Car Audio customers..



## its_bacon12 (Aug 16, 2007)

Interesting read given the light of the recent events with the eDead..


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1014940


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## CGG318 (Apr 9, 2007)

Seems like a FedEx problem to me.


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## matt62485 (Jun 7, 2008)

yea but however eD should take responsibility into their hands and contact their shipper bc they will loose customers if this continues to happen


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

He was a car audio customer not a HT customer, but no matter. Pretty ****ty situation but I think he could have done more to fix the problem and protect himself. Insurance on FedEx is so cheap you would be stupid to not get it. When sending back a product always ALWAYS take pictures/video of the defect so you have proof it was defective on arrival and not damaged on it's way back to them.

I had a plate amp from them catch fire inside my HT enclosure about 3 months ago. It came in contact with the polyfill stuffing and lit up the circuit board. I thought it just quit working but later in the day I smelled it. I took pictures of the failure and sent them to ED. I told them that it was an unacceptable failure and it needed to be replaced. I told them that I had always thought the plate amp got too hot and thought the LT550 would be better for my use. I told them that since my LT350 was under warranty I would pay the difference for an LT550 and upgrade once they got it back. They got it back and there was no denying it was on fire. They told me they didn't have any LT550's in stock and it would be a month till they had them. I told them I would wait. 1.5 months later I had a new LT550 at my door.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

matt62485 said:


> yea but however eD should take responsibility into their hands and contact their shipper bc they will loose customers if this continues to happen


They sure will. They just need to decide if they give a **** or not. Maybe they already have decided in this case.


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## CGG318 (Apr 9, 2007)

matt62485 said:


> yea but however eD should take responsibility into their hands and contact their shipper bc they will loose customers if this continues to happen


Actually the customer was the shipper when the sub was damaged.


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## matt62485 (Jun 7, 2008)

CGG318 said:


> Actually the customer was the shipper when the sub was damaged.


sorry maybe i read that incorrectly. but its not the first time ive heard of eD's subs coming destroyed. regardless,its not the like customer decided to destroy the product himself, and IIRC most items have an automatic $100 insurance on them from fedex, customer should contact them... however eD couldve handled it better.


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## JayBee (Oct 6, 2006)

I've read so many horror stories about carriers that i try to overpack the things i ship. Also, as a retailer, eD has to have their shipping packaging OK'ed by their carrier if i remember correctly. 

Unfortunately the sub was worth more than the basic $100 coverage. If you don't play CYA it's your own fault.


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## matt62485 (Jun 7, 2008)

JayBee said:


> I've read so many horror stories about carriers that i try to overpack the things i ship. Also, as a retailer, eD has to have their shipping packaging OK'ed by their carrier if i remember correctly.
> 
> Unfortunately the sub was worth more than the basic $100 coverage. If you don't play CYA it's your own fault.


good point


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

JayBee said:


> If you don't play CYA it's your own fault.


*COVER YOUR ANKLE!!!!!!1*


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## matt62485 (Jun 7, 2008)

ItalynStylion said:


> *COVER YOUR ANKLE!!!!!!1*


what if you got fat legs and your ankles are part of you calves?

CYC? 

ok sorry back on topic


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## ascendotuum (Apr 12, 2008)

matt62485 said:


> sorry maybe i read that incorrectly. but its not the first time ive heard of eD's subs coming destroyed. regardless,its not the like customer decided to destroy the product himself, and IIRC most items have an automatic $100 insurance on them from fedex, customer should contact them... however eD couldve handled it better.


Who said the sub came destroyed? He said originally it came not working. It was damaged during return shipment, due to improper packaging. While it sucks that he got a defective product from the beginning, that stuff happens. Bad products go out the door sometimes, its just the way it is.

The problem occurred when the customer failed to correctly package it. No one was saying he decided to destroy it himself, but he didn't follow proper procedure and pack it up the way it should have been. Companies have warranty terms for a reason, it's his fault for not reading and following them.

And then the customer failed again when he apparently didnt do what he was supposed to do AFTER he reported this problem to ED, which was file a warranty claim with FedEx.

I don't see how it could even be perceived as ED's "fault". OK, yes, they could have bent over backwards and jumped through hoops for the guy, but that's just going above and beyond... there are very few companies that would do that. And it sounds like the guy was rude and uncooperative in the first place which only made things worse.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I fail to see how the customer could incorrectly package the sub when he had the original packaging that it was sent in. All he had to do was add tape. Hell, FedEx would have taped it up if he brought it to them open.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

....and I'm not an ED hater. I run some of their stuff. I'm just here pointing out the obvious.


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## ascendotuum (Apr 12, 2008)

ItalynStylion said:


> I fail to see how the customer could incorrectly package the sub when he had the original packaging that it was sent in. All he had to do was add tape. Hell, FedEx would have taped it up if he brought it to them open.


According to the thread, the customer did NOT have the original packaging.

*"From what I understand of the item when it was returned was that it was obviously not repacked correctly. Plastic bags and bubble wrap were used to ship back a 20 pound speaker. This packaging, if a shipping company saw it, would be instantly rejected. Unfortunately, whether or not the speaker was damaged in transit to the customer, the transit from him back here made the speaker 100% worthless."*


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

^If the packaging was so bad it would be rejected by the shipping company then how did it get shipped?


Again, just pointing out the obvious....


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## ascendotuum (Apr 12, 2008)

Umm, I think that was a figure of speech. 

Did you even read through the other thread?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I read the conversation he had with the ED Tech and with Alex. Seemed pretty unproductive and I decided at that point the rest of the thread would likely be worthless opinions and a flame fest. 

Was the rest worth the read?


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## ascendotuum (Apr 12, 2008)

Ehh, some of it. I'm just BS'ing at work anyway so its worth it for me! 

The posts from Chris and a few other guys seemed to put things in perspective. The unhappy customer comes back and types a wall of text too.


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## its_bacon12 (Aug 16, 2007)

I thought eD could have handled it better, after all, they are known for their excellent customer service..

If there was no reason to send it back in the first place, why would he have sent the sub back? It obviously was not the customers fault for an item that was DOA. Companies set aside allowances for this exact kind of thing.. maybe eD's accounting firm doesn't set aside as much as they should?


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

If the speaker arrived to the customer not functioning properly in good packaging, then its an out of the box failure on ED's part. 
If the box was mangled when arriving to the customer and the speaker didnt function properly its a FedEx problem which should be handled by the shipper.

Was the speaker being shipped back for an RMA for replacement? Did ED claim that the speaker was damaged to to their initial shipment to the customer? And did they file a claim for that bad shipment?
Because if thats the case, they recovered their cost, and owe the customer a new sub.

If the speaker was sent back by the buyer purely due to a _manufacturing failure_ and nothing to due with shipping, then its the buyers responsibility to make sure that they ship that useless piece of crap back securely and properly to the company.

So which was it?


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## ascendotuum (Apr 12, 2008)

captainobvious said:


> If the speaker arrived to the customer not functioning properly in good packaging, then its an out of the box failure on ED's part.
> If the box was mangled when arriving to the customer and the speaker didnt function properly its a FedEx problem which should be handled by the shipper.
> 
> Was the speaker being shipped back for an RMA for replacement? Did ED claim that the speaker was damaged to to their initial shipment to the customer? And did they file a claim for that bad shipment?
> ...


Seems like it was a manufacturing problem to begin with, since they had the customer do some troubleshooting and then decided to have him ship it in for testing. If it was physically damaged I don't think they would have had him do any of that.

I guess I could be wrong though...


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## ascendotuum (Apr 12, 2008)

Oh and also the guy said he opened it, hooked it up and when it didnt work he called them. If it was me and I saw physical damage I wouldn't even hook it up. It would have gone right back in the box.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

ascendotuum said:


> Oh and also the guy said he opened it, hooked it up and when it didnt work he called them. If it was me and I saw physical damage I wouldn't even hook it up. It would have gone right back in the box.


agreed, same here. Which is why I was thinking defect fm the beginning. 

So did ED file a claim with FedEx (or whoever they initially shipped with) I wonder? If so, they owe a speaker to the customer.

If NOT, then the customer is focked because he didnt ship it back packaged properly and insured.


EDIT:
Although to be honest, ED KNEW that they were recieving back a "bad" speaker and that their obligation would be to send the customer a new one. IMO its good busines practice to send off the new speaker and take the old one back, even if the box got kicked in on the way back because you know the item was "bad".
I can see the point of both parties in this case, but the guy also bought an amp so he did spend more money. If he was happy with the amp (which he stated he was) and he was happy with the sub in functional condition (as the rep said he would be) than them simply sending out a replacement anyway would make the buyer feel better about purchasing from them in the future.


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## ascendotuum (Apr 12, 2008)

The receiver cannot file a claim. The shipper has to do that. So ED told him that, and apparently he never did it.

And FedEx has an expiration date on this sort of thing, I think they give you a month. After that there's nothing that can be done.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

ascendotuum said:


> The receiver cannot file a claim. The shipper has to do that. So ED told him that, and apparently he never did it.
> 
> And FedEx has an expiration date on this sort of thing, I think they give you a month. After that there's nothing that can be done.


right, right. I understand that. 

What Im saying is from eD's end, did they file it as a shipping loss when the buyer contacted them about a bad product and make a shipping claim initially, or did they chalk it up as a defective out of the box product.

Because once they make a claim to the shipping company saying "hey, you busted our product in transit to our customer, we want compensation". The they have recovered that loss and still owe the product to the customer no matter how it comes back to them in my eyes.

But like I said, if they admitted to an out of the box failure and made no shipping claim, told the buyer to RMA it and ship it back to them for a replacement -and then recieved a box that looked like it was dragged through the desert before it reached their docks...well then they're hands are clean from a business standpoint.
Morally though, I'd still like to see them replace a product that they knew was bad and was being shipped back to them as such.


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## ascendotuum (Apr 12, 2008)

Yea, I would have liked to see them replace it anyway out of good faith. I know they also use these RMA's (the ones that make it back in one piece) for B-Stock sales later on. They fix whatevers wrong, test them, and then sell them again as used or refurbished or whatever you wanna call it. In this case, the sub they got back was completely useless.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Yeah, I see your point. (as long as they didnt file a shipping claim)


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I found this very interesting:


ED tech asks guy to call about 2 times



ed tech said:


> Tech Department: Im sorry, that you feel that way Eric. If you like, I can give you a call to discuss the issue, maybe we just have some miss communication.
> .
> .
> .
> Tech Department: No I am sorry, That is why I would like to speak on the phone.


Then here it is..



convo said:


> Tech Department: The part that upsets me about the issue, is that I dont show any communication on your situation, other than the original email stating that the speaker was damaged in return shipping.
> Eric : most of the communication was done either here or through phone calls
> Tech Department: *Ok, well unfortunately I dont have any history of phone calls, and live support changed systems around 1.5 months ago, so anything longer than that is gone.* If you get the speaker, and it does not work right out of the box, we get a damage claim filed, and you get a brand new speaker.



So, what have I just learned? NEVER call ED. ALWAYS talk to them online because once they get you on the phone you've lost all 'proof' on your end. 

Say what you will, but it's right there in front of you to see. It's actually good practice to always keep these kind of things in type so you have proof later. I hate talking to CS on the phone for this one reason.

/lesson


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## ogahyellow (Apr 16, 2007)

Maybe I missed it, but I kept wondering how the sub was damaged during shipping. ED seems to come out ok since the customer didn't follow the RMA procedure.

Who doesn't keep the original packaging until they test a new item?

BTW-- CYC could me Carry Yer **** -- which kinda means "get outta here" in Barbados...


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## ascendotuum (Apr 12, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> So, what have I just learned? NEVER call ED. ALWAYS talk to them online because once they get you on the phone you've lost all 'proof' on your end.
> 
> Say what you will, but it's right there in front of you to see. It's actually good practice to always keep these kind of things in type so you have proof later. I hate talking to CS on the phone for this one reason.


Yea, I came to that conclusion a LONG time ago back when I first started buying things over the internet. Lucky for me I realized that something like this could happen without it actually happening. It's called covering all your bases.

The whole situation could have been handled very quickly and with a lot less headache if the guy had been halfway competent instead of basically just stomping his feet going "ITS BROKE GIMME A NEW ONE NOW!"


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## ascendotuum (Apr 12, 2008)

ogahyellow said:


> Maybe I missed it, but I kept wondering how the sub was damaged during shipping. ED seems to come out ok since the customer didn't follow the RMA procedure.
> 
> Who doesn't keep the original packaging until they test a new item?


Exactly. I thought it was just common sense myself... I mean the guy probably did get a defective part. But he just didn't want to admit that he did anything wrong, when it's easy to see that he screwed up on multiple occasions.


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## JayBee (Oct 6, 2006)

it seem sthat the product didn't work out of the box, so he sent it back to ED and it physically damaged when ED got it. 

Simple moral of story, insure what you ship. The extra $2 is worth it.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

So you buy a speaker that is DOA. Then ship it back at your expense w/insurance. You do so becuase Ed tells you to send it back. Now they find yep it was DOA and send you a new speaker.

Guess what you are still out the shipping and insurance.

or does Ed reimburse you? 

Anyone know their poliscy on shipping and insurance reimbursment for a DOA speaker.

However, Ed being a internet company they need to figure out a way to take care of these customers when this happens. If they do not you might as well go to a B&M so this sort of thing does not happen. B&M DOA out of the box, just open another box and let them worry about the B&M getting a replacement.IMO


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I think the main thing that we should all remember about this situation is the following....
-Customer received sub DOA
-Customer shipped sub back
-Customer got *NOTHING* back

I mean damn, they took his money and now they have the sub. They are probably going to recone it and sell it to someone else as B-stock! This guy lost everything.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Genxx said:


> Guess what you are still out the shipping and insurance.
> 
> or does Ed reimburse you?
> 
> Anyone know their poliscy on shipping and insurance reimbursment for a DOA speaker.



It's not reimbursed. In fact, I can't think of a single company that will reimburse you for return shipping.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

ItalynStylion said:


> I think the main thing that we should all remember about this situation is the following....
> -Customer received sub DOA
> -Customer shipped sub back
> -Customer got *NOTHING* back
> ...


Did you read ANY of that thread??? They didn't get a sub back, they got origami.


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## SQKid89 (Feb 22, 2007)

working for an internet company (auto parts), i've heard and seen horror stories about shipping. I always tell my customers to get a tracking number if they send something back to us. that way if there are any issues, we can not only see where the package is, but also have a record if there's a problem. as previously stated, only the shipper can file a claim.

also, company policy here is that if we make a mistake or a customer receives a broken part in shipping, WE cover return shipping. no need to screw over the customer for our mistake.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

quality_sound said:


> Did you read ANY of that thread??? They didn't get a sub back, they got origami.


Yes, I have read the whole thread. They said the sub was broken because he packaged it wrong. He said he didn't package it wrong. His word against theirs and neither has proof to back it up.

Sounds like internet banter to me.......


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

ItalynStylion said:


> Yes, I have read the whole thread. They said the sub was broken because he packaged it wrong. He said he didn't package it wrong. His word against theirs and neither has proof to back it up.
> 
> Sounds like internet banter to me.......


They have no proof? They got the box back. I'm going to assume they opened it because they said it was "packaged" using peanuts and plastic bags...


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## GenPac (Oct 29, 2007)

A related story about how eD customer service should have handled it...

I bought one of the refurb. Sundown SAX 100.4 units from dB-r (Chris)
It was shipped to me and I had some problems with it. After several emails about the problems I was having, Chris asked that I ship it back to him for testing. I shipped it back and it was damaged in shipping.

Chris notified me and called Jacob (Sundown Audio). Chris arranged for Jacob to ship me a _NEW_ Sax 100.4 as a replacement as Chris had no more in stock.
I offered to split the cost of the new unit.
Chris refused _MY_ offer and I received a brand new amplifier at no additional cost to me.

Chris @ dB-r as well as Jacob, know how to handle issues that arise. They know what it means to have effective customer service.

Just thought I'd share this as a comparison in Customer Service philosophy.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I think a lot of it is also how you approached the situation. You know what they say about getting more with honey than vinegar.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Having seen the original packaging that BryanWescoe's 12AV2 came in, there's no way it would have made a return trip to ED - that's why we built a crate to send it to npdang. The carton was disintegrated and the foam inserts were coming apart. The packaging is clearly designed to barely make a one way trip.

We don't really know what went on here but we can probably assume that it was poorly packaged on its return trip. Assuming that the product was completely destroyed on its way back to ED, what would FedEx's liability be for a product that was non-functional when the shipper received it? I don't know.

It's unfortunate that ED didn't do more to help the customer through the claims process. Aside from not keeping records of phone conversations, it seems very peculiar that they would not at least have photographed the packaging and the product before deciding to throw it on the scrap heap. At the very least, they owe that guy the now busted up and originally non-functional product - if he wanted to pay to have it shipped back.

I'm sure the customer was difficult to deal with, but ED knew that they had the customer's money and the customer had nothing. It seems like their motivation gets a little week in that scenario. Instead of a satisfied customer, they yet again have at least two Internet forum threads arguing about whether or not their service is crap or not. Penny wise and pound foolish.


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

its_bacon12 said:


> Interesting read given the light of the recent events with the eDead..
> 
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1014940


FedEx issue. It really has nothing to do with ED anymore. I wish the customer could see this. I'm sorry customers demand to be waited on hand and foot. Sorry to say, businesses stay in business because they make money. They can't just be soaking up shipping costs and other fees time and again to make every drama queen happy. 

There's a certain reality to business that customer's don't realize. Business is money. It's cold, it's soulless, and it's driven by numbers.

Ok, so ED gives the guy a new sub at their own expense. They're out $150. Now they do this for every product they ever made with every customer they ever had a problem with. Let's say they're out, oh, $150,000. Guess what happens to the business? (1) They die off and ED is no more. (2) Prices of the products go up to cover costs of all the drama queen customers who demand everything under the sun. Now that $150 sub costs $250...for everybody. (3) ED does exactly what they do and leaves the issue to where it's at fault, the shipper. Which one of these senereos is a win for ED and every customer? Anybody see why some companies can cater to a customer's every whim? How much overhead do you think they have on the price of each of their products?

It's not that hard to file a claim with FedEx. In the end, everyone wins. I can't see why the customer couldn't see this and just do it. He could stop whining to ED and he'd have all of his money back.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

mvw2 said:


> FedEx issue. It really has nothing to do with ED anymore. I wish the customer could see this. I'm sorry customers demand to be waited on hand and foot. Sorry to say, businesses stay in business because they make money. They can't just be soaking up shipping costs and other fees time and again to make every drama queen happy.
> 
> There's a certain reality to business that customer's don't realize. Business is money. It's cold, it's soulless, and it's driven by numbers.
> 
> ...


This analysis would be absolutely correct if the product wasn't DOA. That fact complicates things on many levels.


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

Is it just me, or does every defective eD product seem to get "damaged in shipping" when you send it back to them for an RMA?

It happened to me, and I seem to see this happening to a lot of people. Do they just refuse to believe their products can be defective? I'm starting to suspect they don't really have a valid RMA process.


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## JayBee (Oct 6, 2006)

Rudeboy said:


> This analysis would be absolutely correct if the product wasn't DOA. That fact complicates things on many levels.


very true, if i had a rockford amp that i claimed was defective and got an RMA number from rockford to send the amp in but it gets damaged in shipping beyond their ability to test it who is to blaim? If it's packed poorly, then it is me. If it's packed well but someone at FEDEX chewed it up and spat it out, then obviously it's on FEDEX. 

It's easy to say, "Well rockford is a giant company, thay can afford to just give me another amp!", but they aren't under any obligation to do so and if they are smart they won't as to keep people from attempting to defraud them in such a manner. 

As the shipper of the package, it is your responsibilty to deal with a something that has been damaged in shipping. 

If ED was smart, they would start documenting everything that came back to them with video or pics so that they would have a visual record of shipping damage for the customer to use to make the claim to the shipper.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

JayBee said:


> very true, if i had a rockford amp that i claimed was defective and got an RMA number from rockford to send the amp in but it gets damaged in shipping beyond their ability to test it who is to blaim? If it's packed poorly, then it is me. If it's packed well but someone at FEDEX chewed it up and spat it out, then obviously it's on FEDEX.
> 
> It's easy to say, "Well rockford is a giant company, thay can afford to just give me another amp!", but they aren't under any obligation to do so and if they are smart they won't as to keep people from attempting to defraud them in such a manner.
> 
> ...


The problem with the fraud prevention theory is that there's no incentive to commit fraud in the first place  The only reason to return the amp in the first place is because it is defective. There would be no reason to return a properly functioning product. Who's going to think it would be great to ship ED a brand new, working amp to get another, identical brand new working amp?

To those who have said that ED paying to return defective merchandise would raise prices across the board, as things are now, the people unlucky enough to receive DOA products are bearing the full cost. It would be more fair to spread that burden evenly. This really amounts to artificially low prices since IMO, the price should be the price to get you a functioning unit.

I have no idea how common DOA products from ED are. I know we hear about it a lot because the process isn't smooth. A little more QC effort would probably eliminate most of these problems at the source. 

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with their procedures - they are entitled to run things any way they see fit, but the idea that this is about fraud prevention misses the mark. If a costumer receives a defective product, the responsibility is the seller's.


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## JayBee (Oct 6, 2006)

Rudeboy said:


> The problem with the fraud prevention theory is that there's no incentive to commit fraud in the first place  The only reason to return the amp in the first place is because it is defective. There would be no reason to return a properly functioning product. Who's going to think it would be great to ship ED a brand new, working amp to get another, identical brand new working amp?
> 
> To those who have said that ED paying to return defective merchandise would raise prices across the board, as things are now, the people unlucky enough to receive DOA products are bearing the full cost. It would be more fair to spread that burden evenly. This really amounts to artificially low prices since IMO, the price should be the price to get you a functioning unit.
> 
> ...


unless you have a product that you screwed up and are looking for a way to get a free replacement. it happens, i saw it all the time when i worked in retail electronics. people will go to great lengths to get something for nothing...except work for it


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

JayBee said:


> unless you have a product that you screwed up and are looking for a way to get a free replacement. it happens, i saw it all the time when i worked in retail electronics. people will go to great lengths to get something for nothing...except work for it


That's always going to be a problem and doesn't really apply to this situation. IMO, this particular case is so confused that it is impossible to talk about it specifically. It is interesting to read ED's speaker warranty. Aside from their "5 year warranty" clearly stating: *Elemental Designs warrants this product to be free from defects in original materials and workmanship, under intended use, for a period of thirty-six (36) months, from the date of original purchase.* - 5 years = 36 months?



ED Speaker Warranty said:


> Using this woofer for any purpose in any environment it was not designed for voids warranty (ripped spiders, burned voice coils, melted/torn joints, ripped surround, cracked cone, and ripped or cut tinsels are clear signs of this)


While these can be signs of abuse, they can also be the result of defects or poor design. They also state that shipping the product back in anything but the original packaging voids the warranty. That pretty much renders this entire discussion moot and makes me wonder why the question of shipping damage was even raised.



ED Speaker Warranty said:


> Elemental Designs does not cover abuse, improper installation, personal negligence, or shipping damage (for shipping damage please file a claim with the shipping provider, we carefully follow guidelines for shipping. Once it leaves our facility it is out of our hands and is the respective shipping companies responsibility to get it to you as is).


Hasn't it been established that ONLY the shipper can file a claim with the carrier?



ED Speaker Warranty said:


> Elemental Designs does not cover shipping cost back to our offices (We can not tell if it is manufacturing error or user error until investigating each driver.)


Nothing about reimbursing the customer for shipping if ED does acknowledge that the product is defective.



ED Speaker Warranty said:


> We are not responsible for packages we don't know why we are getting them.


This is a legal document folks. Honest to god. Here's more:



ED Speaker Warranty said:


> Packaged shipped back to eD in anything but the original packaging will be refused and returned to sender. Any costs involved in inability to follow this guideline are the responsibility of the sender. Not Elemental Designs. Packages shipped back to eD without a RMA Number clearly located on the box will be refused and returned to sender. Any costs involved in inability to follow this guideline are the responsibility of the sender. Not Elemental Designs. In the event any driver or equipment shipped to Elemental Designs incurs damange due to improper packaging or incurs shipping damage in any packaging that is not of Elemental Designs design (original shipping packaging) any costs or fees incurred are the responsibility of the packaging agent. Not Elemental Designs


Anybody not recognizing this writing style, it's classic Ben Milne. In any case, ED's written policy for dealing with the situation described in the linked thread should have been to refuse the package. I'd love to have a lawyer chime in on both what happens when the party issuing a warranty doesn't adhere to its terms and more interestingly, how enforceable is any of the gobbledy****. God forbid your product suffers any damange. Definitely worth the read.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

lol it seems every post involving Ed here gets tons of passionate responses, this one was interesting enough for me that i wanted to make a response...

i feel i can stand on both sides of the coin, i have dealt with Ed a long time and know the guys there personally, at the same time, i would like to think that i myself offer really good customer service to my customers and is part of hte reason they come to me, things break that i install, i literally have whomever ship me a new one and swap it in, and try to go out of my way to help guys...

so...having said that...in this case, IF the situation as described in the thread is true, then it IS, IMO, the customers fault for not shipping correct.y

I have myself had gosh...50-60 subs shipped to me over the years, and while i have never had an AV2, so i dont knwo the status of that box, but i can tell you with positive assurance that EVERY SINGLE SUB, if i kept the original box, would have zero problem making a return trip safely back to Ed.

As you can imagine, i get shipments from all sorts of places, and to be honest, ED's sub packaging is really no different than many other brands when they ship, paper or foam to properly locate the sb in the box, and then often, box is within another box if its multiple subs. i cant really think of anoyther company htat does a lot more really...ID, DLS, Zapco...all very similar when it comes to sub packaging...again, without having any experience with the Av2 series in shipping.

however, if i was in Ed's situation, i myself would have probably tried a little more to resolve the istuation with the cusomter, maybe cutting him some slack this one time, afterall, the cost of a single sub may not be that high but negative press is always more costly...

but i am sure, jaybee points out, if you start treating someone really well like this, you do end up wtih a lot of positive opinions, but it really does invite people to take advantage of you. Even in my relatively tiny customer base compared to Eds, i have had a few people, after either seeing, hearing or experiencing how hard i try to make people happy, take blatant advantage of me.

for example, one person would contact me all the time, asking me to fill him in, sell him stuff at ebay prices, and then even asked if i can swing by while i was on my holiday trip with my wife to install a nav in his driveway...lol...and he was acutally annoyed when i said i cant do it...

but anyway, i think again, Ed's dirty laundry just gets aired out a lot more because they are an online company...they have their good points and their bad, and balancing between running a profitable business and being known as a super friendly company is an extremely difficult task sometimes


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## ascendotuum (Apr 12, 2008)

Ok, yea. That's pretty bad.

Also, I remember reading that they said they held on to the speaker waiting for the claim to go through (the claim that the customer was supposed to file). It says here they're supposed to refuse to accept it. Unless of course it appeared to be in original packaging, meaning it was in the right box but the insides weren't there. Then they wouldn't have known until they actually opened it.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

simplicity,

I respect the hell out of your work. I would respect you more if you weren't associated with those clowns at all. The **** you see on the Internet is NOT just because they are an online company. It's because Ben Milne is a dishonest person and he runs a dishonest company that doesn't QC.

The customer does sound like he sucks at life, in this case, but I don't see how anyone can defend eD after reading that "warranty".

Of course running a business is hard. That's why you get paid to do it.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

IME, most warranties, especially for speakers, read a LOT like eD's.


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## quest51210 (Dec 27, 2007)

i can post emails with a recent issue i had with ed, it was "damaged in shipping" too, took a week, but they replaced my $70 13Ov with a new sub and let me keep the old one. they took my word for the troubleshooting which was cool because most dealers here you "used to be" an installer and they dont believe you. i sent them my findings and all was fixed. i have like 10 emails back and forth. 

so, same experience you had. 



GenPac said:


> A related story about how eD customer service should have handled it...
> 
> I bought one of the refurb. Sundown SAX 100.4 units from dB-r (Chris)
> It was shipped to me and I had some problems with it. After several emails about the problems I was having, Chris asked that I ship it back to him for testing. I shipped it back and it was damaged in shipping.
> ...


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I hate to say it, but I warranty subs no questions asked. I sell my product under cost, I don't require you to ship it back to me, pay shipping for a replacement, or even show me a picture. And at the end of the day, I'm broke.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

That's cause you're a prince ,Nguyen 

When i was younger and working as a gigolo,  , my policy was the customer always comes first !


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

npdang said:


> I hate to say it, but I warranty subs no questions asked. I sell my product under cost, I don't require you to ship it back to me, pay shipping for a replacement, or even show me a picture. And at the end of the day, I'm broke.


Selling your product under cost is probably the biggest problem in that equation


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

The only way the shipper would have been able to get money from FedEx is if eD refused the package due to damages or actually took pictures of the damaged box/product. Saying "it's damaged in shipping sorry about your luck" is NOT how a company should be honoring a DOA product.

I can't believe there is even a question on whether or not eD should be covering the cost of a replacement woofer.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

That is a fat lot of ********

I sell clarion, and Jl and other brands, my policy is this.. you get one free, your bad or otherwise you blow a 1000 watt sub because you powered it with 100 watts, no problem, you get one free, next time, no dice, but you get one. 

ED in this case had already accepted responsibility for a faulty product, otherwise they would not have had it shipped back for 'testing' My guess is they already knew damned well what the problem was, yet in order to dissuade future liability they had to call the package 'damaged' which, I don't personally believe.

*Lesson learned.. if you are going to send a sub back to E.D. put an identifying mark on it, photograph the unit with todays paper and ship it in a safe, otherwise you run a good chance of the unit being damaged 'in transit'*


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## quest51210 (Dec 27, 2007)

i like how i had great feedback on an issue and no one quoted it. i have the emails i can forward to you


quest51210 said:


> i can post emails with a recent issue i had with ed, it was "damaged in shipping" too, took a week, but they replaced my $70 13Ov with a new sub and let me keep the old one. they took my word for the troubleshooting which was cool because most dealers here you "used to be" an installer and they dont believe you. i sent them my findings and all was fixed. i have like 10 emails back and forth.
> 
> so, same experience you had.





BoostedNihilist said:


> That is a fat lot of ********
> 
> I sell clarion, and Jl and other brands, my policy is this.. you get one free, your bad or otherwise you blow a 1000 watt sub because you powered it with 100 watts, no problem, you get one free, next time, no dice, but you get one.
> 
> ...


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

quest51210 said:


> i like how i had great feedback on an issue and no one quoted it. i have the emails i can forward to you


I don't think anybody doubts that the vast majority of ED's transactions are completed successfully. I'm sure that a great deal of the good will they enjoy is earned - as is much of the anger. At the same time, some of the feelings on both sides are unearned and over the top. Just as the guy who smoked a pack a day and lived to be 100 doesn't prove that smoking is good for you, anecdotes, pro or con, don't tell the whole story.


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## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

quality_sound said:


> It's not reimbursed. In fact, I can't think of a single company that will reimburse you for return shipping.


i have been sent FedEx RMA labels by them... slap it on the package, and drop it off.

I've also received replacement items with a return label inside for the return. (was sent the wrong item once.)

Always been very good to me...

DOA happens. Rare, but it does. It's happened to me with DLS before, as well as Seas.

The guy was talking in circles. If a warranty policy is clearly posted, they don't really need to defend themselves. They didn't do anything wrong, and the guy should've shut his mouth and took it to fedex LONG before he "sat on the issue".

Business is business. You can't come out of pocket to cover customer screw ups/fedex man playing soccer with the package screw ups, even if the customers threaten to be immature little girls and go tattle over the interwebz and to all their friends because a company wouldn't wipe their ass for them. If you did, you'd be out of business really quick.

No personal bias here, just a perspective of business ethics in general.


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## fischman (Jan 3, 2007)

Alot of people need to learn to read through the thread before posting uninformed posts. ED was not at fault in this case. Both sides could have handled it differently/better, but the overall issue here, and why the customer does not have money or a speaker is his own fault. 

ED shipped a product that was defective(assumed, since it was not able to be tested due to damage). Unfortuntaly, regardless of quality control, this will sometimes happen. If I go to the store and buy a speaker and take it home and hook it up, and it doesn't work, I still have to return it in the condition I received it in. If I give it to my buddy to return for me and he decides to play soccer with it for a while before he returns it, I don't expect the store to take it back. The same thing applies with Fed Ex/UPS. That is what insurance is for and why you need to keep the original packaging or insure that it is packaged well. According to the thread, the OP admitted to not having the original packaging because one of his roommates threw it out. He packaged it with bubblewrap and plastic bags!!! 

The customer would have been 100% covered if he shipped it correctly and had insurance. He would have then been able to request photos of the damaged product, which ED in the thread had said they would have been willing to provide, and had provided to others in the past. The customer would have gotten his money back and then could have worked out a new purchase with ED if he so hoped. 

Also, depending on what the issue was with the speaker, ED may have planned on repairing it and reselling it as a refurb'ed speaker to recover some of their cost in providing the replacement. If the customer didn't package the speaker in such a fashion to avoid further damage, he has cost them additional money as well.

Just my .02

Josh F


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