# I want to be able to accurately reproduce a live drum set.



## CBRworm (Sep 1, 2006)

I have never heard a home or car audio system that could make me feel like I was sitting behind a drum set. 

why is that? I have big speakers, little speakers, big amps, subwoofers, but nothing will reproduce a drum set with the same visceral impact of being in front of a live drummer. 

I would like to have a good recording that has not been compressed or mastered of some live instruments. I don't have a microphone capable of capturing the dynamics of drums, and/or I can't reproduce it. Even Woodblocks don't sound right - I mean they sound like wood blocks, but not the same as live. 

If I go into Guitar Center, or Sam Ash - they have pro stuff that can do it - what's the difference? 

to me it seems to be a major absence of tight clean bass.

I am thinking that it is just because recorded music is so compressed to keep your woofers from falling out at reasonable levels.


Maybe chad can chime in.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I blame it on compression in the mastering and the powerful urge to cross subs over way too low thus relying on a driver usually not larger than 8" to provide the brunt of the audio. Not to mention the urge to flip a mid in phase if something is "just not right," and to use inefficient subs in enclosures the choke them back, remember it's the first watt that counts  After that you are fighting a losing battle.

a 12-15 is a MID for me and subs are 18" in droves crossed at twice the point or 3 times that of many people on here. Use the power you have, invest in good stuff media wise and enjoy.


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

Yeah for honesty.

Great post thanks Chad.


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## SQKid89 (Feb 22, 2007)

to me, i've yet to hear a live recording that can reproduce the awesome feel of a bass/kick drum that i've heard at most of the concerts i've been to. i have maybe 1 or 2 albums that get close to it, but even then they suffer in quality. so i know exactly what you mean.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Live recording very rarely capture the feel 

There's just no substitute to the adrenaline and horsepower at a live event.


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## SQKid89 (Feb 22, 2007)

maybe i'm still (not really) young, but there's nothing like having your chest vibrate every time the drummer hits the bass drum. last time i went to a show, i swear i was getting punched every time. you're right about the adrenaline...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

SQKid89 said:


> maybe i'm still (not really) young, but there's nothing like having your chest vibrate every time the drummer hits the bass drum. last time i went to a show, i swear i was getting punched every time. you're right about the adrenaline...



It's wonderful isn't it?

Aver heard a nice big kick drum in a room? Same thing


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

chad said:


> It's wonderful isn't it?
> 
> Aver heard a nice big kick drum in a room? Same thing


There are 3 little theaters in Denver that my son keeps dragging me to (Odgen, Fillmore, Bluebird) to watch "barking" bands. Not my favorite genre, but in an intimate environment......i don't have a recording that can compare. I have the "luxury" of having 2 different bands rehearse in my basement time to time and again nothing I have on CD can compare to the energy and dynamics flowing in a live set.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

I keep thinking of "The chain", by Fleetwood Mac


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

Hic said:


> I keep thinking of "The chain", by Fleetwood Mac


Had the pleasure of seeing Mick about 5 or 6 time since the late 70's........one of the best in my book.


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

I have heard some speakers get very very close. It all comes down to equipment. a REALLY good full range speaker with larger drivers. (Kef Reference 207/2s for example use 12" midranges) REALLY powerful and good quality amps/pre-amp. Good recording. A good recording from like Phil Collins where songs like "I Don't Care Anymore" where the mic is placed in the heart of the drum kit. (Basically you are sitting on the stool when you listen.) That's about as close as you can get imo.

Edit - I also heard the older Infinity Prelude towers do very well. Typically I am not an Infinity fan, however I LOVED the Preludes when set up properly, as well as the Intermezzo towers.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

finebar4 said:


> Had the pleasure of seeing Mick about 5 or 6 time since the late 70's........one of the best in my book.


Bows to Finebar... Wow, That's a person I have yet to meet


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

chad said:


> Bows to Finebar... Wow, That's a person I have yet to meet



You think Joe Walsh and Ozzy have a screw loose.....Mick is WAAAAAY out there in left field somewhere


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

finebar4 said:


> You think Joe Walsh and Ozzy have a screw loose.....Mick is WAAAAAY out there in left field somewhere


That would be a blast I've dealt with the aforementioned. Joe is not that bad, actually a pretty sharp guy, Ozzy... well... he's Ozzy. But a loving soul that just wants to be loved back, and it's hard not to. Like a poor old dog.


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## Rockin'Z28 (Sep 26, 2007)

CBRworm said:


> Maybe chad can chime in.


lol

Asking Chad to chime in is like asking Clinton to be nice to the latest intern!



ha ha ha ha 

You can kick my ass later Chad.


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## solacedagony (May 18, 2006)

chad said:


> Aver heard a nice big kick drum in a room? Same thing


You ain't kiddin! A drummer I play with now and again has a Pearl set with an extra deep kick drum and extra deep toms. I can't get over the sound of that set.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

chad said:


> Aver heard a nice big kick drum in a room? Same thing


How big of a room are we talking, how far way from the drum? What do you think the ~ SPL level of that would be?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

SQKid89 said:


> maybe i'm still (not really) young, but there's nothing like having your chest vibrate every time the drummer hits the bass drum.


...or having your pants dance when he hits the snare or a tom.

I'm just guessing here, but I'd bet that the snare drum consists of more power content over such a wide band than any other (non-synth) instrument in rock music.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

durwood said:


> How big of a room are we talking, how far way from the drum? What do you think the ~ SPL level of that would be?


A, A normal, say bedroom size room or big iso booth
B, Anywhere in the room
C, Depends on the "weight" of the drummer's right foot, drum tuning, etc


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

solacedagony said:


> You ain't kiddin! A drummer I play with now and again has a Pearl set with an extra deep kick drum and extra deep toms. I can't get over the sound of that set.


We've been rocking a 26" Gretsch kik now for about 6 months and.... wow.... just wow.....

Chad


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

chad said:


> C, Depends on the "weight" of the drummer's right foot, drum tuning, etc


Let's say he has a lead foot for drumming and you are behind the wheel of the tuning. Now how much?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

durwood said:


> Let's say he has a lead foot for drumming and you are behind the wheel of the tuning. Now how much?


Acoustic, between 95 and 105 dB I'd say in an untreated room. Same amp'd, I rarely go over 105 A weighted unless it's called for (1 room now that I know of) Peaks are higher.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

chad said:


> Acoustic, between 95 and 105 dB I'd say in an untreated room. Same amp'd, I rarely go over 105 A weighted unless it's called for (1 room now that I know of) Peaks are higher.



Muchos gracias. Another question from a musically challenged person-what frequency range does a kick drum play through? I've read that the "thump" is between 60-100Hz and the slap is between "1.5Khz-3Khz".


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

durwood said:


> Muchos gracias. Another question from a musically challenged person-what frequency range does a kick drum play through? I've read that the "thump" is between 60-100Hz and the slap is between "1.5Khz-3Khz".


It's really broad banded depending on the comopsition of the batter head and the batter itself. But yeah you have it pretty much right. I actually pull a little of the clickyness out and bring some higher stuff in as to not punch holes in the vocals and guitars but yet retain a bt of presence.

The 2X4 across the chest? A nice boost between 50 and 70 cycles usually 63....... which, incidentally is HIGHER than many cross their subs here  Thus my first reply  Still ain't figured that one out yet.... but I'm tryin'


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

I think the deal with people crossing there sub so low has to do with avoiding rattles and sub localization. I'm guilty of it myself.:blush: but I'm teetering right on the edge of between 50 and 60Hz, up from 40Hz I was running a while back.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

durwood said:


> I think the deal with people crossing there sub so low has to do with avoiding rattles and sub localization. I'm guilty of it myself.:blush: but I'm teetering right on the edge of between 50 and 60Hz, up from 40Hz I was running a while back.


I think it's due to the heinous efficiency down low and they are just shoving an assload of power at it at low freq's and letting the slope of the LPF define the EQ to compensate for better effciency higher... then bragging about a .7Q  Build the right enclosure and you won't have to cross that low


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

I would say it is not a result of just crossing the sub too low, but often overbloating thier midbass so the dynamic peaks aren't as snappy and just sound fake.

This obsesssion with midbass has been really apperent in the last few vehicles I have gotten to hear. They needed to cut about 6db's around 100hz. 

Although, in two of my vehicles, drums sound ok, but the stang with the 10" mids, the drums sound fantastic. And I have the subs in that vehicle playing from 50 and down.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

backwoods said:


> I would say it is not a result of just crossing the sub too low, but often overbloating thier midbass so the dynamic peaks aren't as snappy and just sound fake.
> 
> This obsesssion with midbass has been really apperent in the last few vehicles I have gotten to hear. They needed to cut about 6db's around 100hz.
> 
> Although, in two of my vehicles, drums sound ok, but the stang with the 10" mids, the drums sound fantastic. And I have the subs in that vehicle playing from 50 and down.


You have mids the size of mmany people's subs  Then again so do I... But not in the car 

Remember this, we get giddy when a "sub cab" goes below 35-40 cycles  You don't hear much at a concert below that


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

backwoods said:


> I would say it is not a result of just crossing the sub too low, but often overbloating thier midbass so the dynamic peaks aren't as snappy and just sound fake.
> 
> This obsesssion with midbass has been really apperent in the last few vehicles I have gotten to hear. They needed to cut about 6db's around 100hz.
> 
> Although, in two of my vehicles, drums sound ok, but the stang with the 10" mids, the drums sound fantastic. And I have the subs in that vehicle playing from 50 and down.


I usually observe the opposite. Most cars I get into seem to overemphasize the sub, and then are hollow from 80-250.


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## CBRworm (Sep 1, 2006)

I was the one guy in the survey that checked the box for my sub being crossed higher than 70hz. Unfortunately with my sub mounted where it is, the amount of kick that gets to me is significantly less than what whoever is riding in the trunk is feeling.


My crossover point changes dramatically depending on mood. My loud preset has the sub crossed at either 70 or 90hz. My "SQ" preset has the midbasses going down to 45hz and the sub crossed at 40hz with the gain on the sub just high enough to fill in what the front speakers can't do - you wouldn't know the sub was there except for the lf extension. 

If I am listening to 'Planet P', the sub gets crossed at 160hz and the midbasses go down to 63hz, at least until the 100A fuse blows.

I am making myself a CD in Reason that will have the best synthetic representations of some percussives (is that a word) I can get without any compression - and see if my speakers fall out before I can reproduce them to my satisfaction.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

CBRworm said:


> I was the one guy in the survey that checked the box for my sub being crossed higher than 70hz. Unfortunately with my sub mounted where it is, the amount of kick that gets to me is significantly less than what whoever is riding in the trunk is feeling.


I'm with ya, man. 73Hz @ 48dB/oct. And no complaints here whatsoever.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

Biggest thing to me for accurate reproduction is effeciency. When your looking for the quick and large changes in volume that you get from a real drum set, your not going to get it with a 88db effecient speaker. Unless the speaker handles 3000watts of course... Big effecient drivers are pretty much key unless your going to load up on a bunch of them (array).


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

T3mpest said:


> Biggest thing to me for accurate reproduction is effeciency. When your looking for the quick and large changes in volume that you get from a real drum set, your not going to get it with a 88db effecient speaker. Unless the speaker handles 3000watts of course... Big effecient drivers are pretty much key unless your going to load up on a bunch of them (array).


You're right, of course. But along with efficiency also comes power handling. Essentially, what we're looking for is a system that can handle huge transients linearly across a broad spectrum.

Really, what we're getting at here is a very bad word in some circles. I'll whisper it, so I don't offend too many people... "SPL". Sssshhh!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

T3mpest said:


> Biggest thing to me for accurate reproduction is effeciency. When your looking for the quick and large changes in volume that you get from a real drum set, your not going to get it with a 88db effecient speaker. Unless the speaker handles 3000watts of course... Big effecient drivers are pretty much key unless your going to load up on a bunch of them (array).


Damn Skippy!



MarkZ said:


> Really, what we're getting at here is a very bad word in some circles. I'll whisper it, so I don't offend too many people... "SPL". Sssshhh!


_Woo-Hoo!!!!!!_


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## Preacher (May 8, 2006)

I'm not afraid; I love spl. Our Drummer had some huge deep double bass and our studio at one point was 12x14 solid concrete walls covered in eggcrates. 

You had to wear diapers when the Drummer and Bass player went at it. Hooray for a pair of 810 Ampeg cabinets- I can't believe I have children. I want that in my car. You have to breathe in on the upbeat or you're lungs will implode.


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## CBRworm (Sep 1, 2006)

Hmmm... It just occurred to me that I always associate SPL with Hip Hop or Bass music. 

I'll take it a step further - I always associate SPL with someone shaking my windows as they drive down the road. 

My system is as loud as I can reasonably make it with the governing factor being SQ. But I seem to have missed the boat somewhere. Maybe I do want SPL. Maybe I need bigger speakers!


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

CBRworm said:


> Hmmm... It just occurred to me that I always associate SPL with Hip Hop or Bass music.
> 
> I'll take it a step further - I always associate SPL with someone shaking my windows as they drive down the road.
> 
> My system is as loud as I can reasonably make it with the governing factor being SQ. But I seem to have missed the boat somewhere. Maybe I do want SPL. Maybe I need bigger speakers!


in car audio spl usually isn't fullrange. Most people use a very strong subbass sytem and a much weaker midrange and tweet to take up the frontstage. Full range "loud" that sounds good can be quite a bit harder.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

T3mpest said:


> in car audio spl usually isn't fullrange. Most people use a very strong subbass sytem and a much weaker midrange and tweet to take up the frontstage. Full range "loud" that sounds good can be quite a bit harder.


It all depends on what you call "loud"

For me the ability to hit 120dB CLEAN full range is LOUD and in my profession is my requirement. If it does what a rig at a rock show will do, it's good enough for me.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

T3mpest said:


> in car audio spl usually isn't fullrange. Most people use a very strong subbass sytem and a much weaker midrange and tweet to take up the frontstage. Full range "loud" that sounds good can be quite a bit harder.


The SPL competitions stole my word! 

You're right, that "SPL" usually references the hobby of trying to make as much bass as possible. Unfortunately, we're left with bastardizations of the term like "SQL". But I'm taking back "SPL", dammit!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> But I'm taking back "SPL", dammit!


He's bringing sexay back


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## evan (Dec 2, 2006)

Just based on looking at them, the quality of pro-audio drivers seems retro/crappy. Is there an easy way to identify a quality pro-audio driver?

Can a pro-audio sub be used successfully in an otherwise traditional car audio system?

When I was browsing PE I noticed that a lot of 8", 10", and even 12" were referred to as a "woofer" instead of a "subwoofer". Do those classifications come from the specs/manufacturer or does it depend on the mood of whoever at PE wrote the description?


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

I want to accurately reproduce a live organ.


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

Punk0Rama said:


> I want to accurately reproduce a live organ.


What freq does a liver play?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

evan said:


> Just based on looking at them, the quality of pro-audio drivers seems retro/crappy. Is there an easy way to identify a quality pro-audio driver?


Price !!


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

i was JUST thinking about this: i was walking around last nite in town and lo and behold, a brass section playing christmas songs outside. and i was thinking to myself "wow, that sounds SO distinct and clear, i wanna be able to reproduce that". nothing grand, a trumpet, sax, french horn, a tuba and a trombone. the dynamics (and they were not playing loud) were just ... DAMN! yeah, live acoustic instrument music as a goal will be a hard thing to do. my home system has GREAT imaging and sounds very natural, but those dynamics are a killer, and i think that there's nothing other than high efficiency drivers and lots of power that can do that. now, will that combination image as well aws what i am using? i dunno. i am assuming that there will have to be some tradeoffs in terms of imaging cues v. spl simply given that for one, smaller drivers are better and for the other larger drivers are better ... i gotta say, stop and listen to a holiday band for a second next time you see them around the red bucket. it'll be a real treat.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

The recording of "In The Air Tonight", Phil Collins ,[ Great read ]  

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_phil_collins_air/index.html/

If your system can do this one...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Has been used since, well a long time. The problem with pro stuff in cars is- the enclosures need to be large if not using IB or AP and excursion is low compared to car stuff.

You have to remember that in the pro world they are using 12s as midranges...so you'll not be seeing 8" subs there.

What/who makes a good proaudio speaker? Lots of companies, you just need to familiarize yourself with the companies...but as a general rule of thumb, you can't ever go wrong with JBL, TAD, or B&C. There are a lot of other companies out there too.



evan said:


> Just based on looking at them, the quality of pro-audio drivers seems retro/crappy. Is there an easy way to identify a quality pro-audio driver?
> 
> Can a pro-audio sub be used successfully in an otherwise traditional car audio system?
> 
> When I was browsing PE I noticed that a lot of 8", 10", and even 12" were referred to as a "woofer" instead of a "subwoofer". Do those classifications come from the specs/manufacturer or does it depend on the mood of whoever at PE wrote the description?


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

backwoods said:


> I would say it is not a result of just crossing the sub too low, but often overbloating thier midbass so the dynamic peaks aren't as snappy and just sound fake.
> 
> This obsesssion with midbass has been really apperent in the last few vehicles I have gotten to hear. They needed to cut about 6db's around 100hz.
> 
> Although, in two of my vehicles, drums sound ok, but the stang with the 10" mids, the drums sound fantastic. And I have the subs in that vehicle playing from 50 and down.


This is a great thread. Midbass "wooaahm" drives me nuts. Some cars have a great big peak at 100Hz where others don't bother handling the under-dash cavity resonance at 220Hz. The subs generally have no impact and often overcome the front speakers on kick drums. My personal system belief is that you should be able to mute the sub entirely and still enjoy the system. Also, a great part of the "bass from the back" experience comes from other cavity resonances, including the main one from the cabin (if you have a trunk), rattles and even minor panel flex that localizes the source. Also, "traveling bass" delays also force people to lower their xover frequencies to reduce group delay. It's a band-aid. T/A your system with respect to the subwoofer!! /says the guy selling Behringer mods


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

finebar4 said:


> What freq does a liver play?


Bwahahahaha.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

ezaudio said:


> This is a great thread. Midbass "wooaahm" drives me nuts. Some cars have a great big peak at 100Hz where others don't bother handling the under-dash cavity resonance at 220Hz. The subs generally have no impact and often overcome the front speakers on kick drums. My personal system belief is that you should be able to mute the sub entirely and still enjoy the system. Also, a great part of the "bass from the back" experience comes from other cavity resonances, including the main one from the cabin (if you have a trunk), rattles and even minor panel flex that localizes the source. Also, "traveling bass" delays also force people to lower their xover frequencies to reduce group delay. It's a band-aid. T/A your system with respect to the subwoofer!! /says the guy selling Behringer mods


Well said, Also after modding your Behringer with one of these fine kits one may want to experiment with narrow bandwidth cuts to get rid of the Whoom. I too hate it, but don't go too crazy, my biggest pet peeve is to see 160 DUMPED, because it was bad. Little bits sometimes make a huge difference.


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## Fellippe (Sep 15, 2006)

If I were to come up with a generic formula to reproduce a live drum set (i.e. get that KICK up front), I would try this:

dual 6.5s (or more) up front, crossed down to around 50hz, if not 40
horns picking up midrange duties
multiple 8" or 10" subs sealed (low xmax), crossed over around 80ish

And for gravy:

A mono center channel with a 5.25" woofer playing down to 200-300 hz, with a dome mid/tweeter filling out the harmonics to at least 10khz. You'd be surprised what this could add in the midbass department. 

You're also gonna need great amps, installation and tuning....quality solid state for subs and woofers, tubes for mids and highs. Those midrange woofer baffles need to be built right, tight, and sealed properly....deadening, etc. 

The recording will play a huge role in this and I'm not sure if this was discussed already. There are drum tracks that are pretty impressive even on average systems, and others that are lifeless on all but the most amazing systems (if at all). 

3.5max6speed played me some drum tracks in his car that sounded awesome, better than almost anything I've heard in music as far as drums are concerned. 

The only music track that comes to mind is track 11 "Essaywhuman" on the Roots "Do you want more?!" album. You can get the impression of having a snare drum in your car quite easily with this track...

It may not image properly, but tonally you will have a snare drum.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

In 1986 I was going to different car audio stores checking out systems. I was shown show cars with expensive super clear sound but the system the best midbass was a Toyota pickup with a pretty mundane system, nothing fancy or too expensive. I don’t know what was in the front but in the rear were two sealed ten inch woofers mounted behind the seat in a box that looked too small. They were being driven by a Rockford Fosgate amp. When the bass guitar hit your shirt and pants moved as if they were attached to the string. The kick drum was scary .

The second best midbass I have heard was an RX7 with 4 eight inch woofer. Again these were not subs but regular woofers.

The sound of the truck was truly amazing. I have spent the rest of my car audio life trying to replicate that sound, but was mislead into thinking that sound came from a subwoofer


So what is the formula for great midbass?
-Efficient eight in midbass or dual 6.5’s on a stiff baffle with lots and lots of power. Efficient woofer with lots of power.

What should the crossover be? I have heard some say sub filter on, sub crossed at 100. Mid bass from 100-250hz. I have also heard midbass crossed at 50 Hz and sub crossed at 80 Hz. What about frequency shaping. What are the import harmonics of the sound?

It would be great to have a tutorial for great midbass sound.


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## CBRworm (Sep 1, 2006)

I think a big piece that most of us are missing in our cars are a properly sized enclosure for the midbass. Power is easy, buying drivers is easy. Getting a 17liter sealed enclosure in your door is not.

I will agree that I have heard cars with great impact and clean sound using multiple smaller woofers. For most of my music good woofers would be better than good subwoofer.


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## DaleCarter (Jan 3, 2008)

The whole challenge is making records sound live and it just isn't possible. There are so may reflections, diffusions, absorptions etc etc that make it feel live, especially from the back and sides.

The most important thing I learned when I was a noob FOH guy was how much those things affected the mix with the size of the crowd in the room. I never thought of people as gobos hahahaha

Best Kick Drum - the best sound I have heard was a cat named James Blair when I was mixing Eric Essix and Modern Man. I mic'd the drum, potted him up and there was the ultimate kick drum. No comp, eq, nothing. Perfect. Weird thing was the kick was an Aria 20". I have had floor toms that big. James is the drummer with the aviator cap(?) on the live Shania Twain vids. Killer drummer.

Best Live Drum Experience - Standing in the DSR fly bay of a MILO line array that was really starting to breathe while Def Leppard played "Pour Some Sugar On Me". I couldn't hear a lot, but I could damned sure feel it. Felt nautios after a few minutes. wow wow wow Don't wory I had PLENTY of ear cover.

Biggst Pet Peeve - an over compressed kick mixed to far in front, with too much boom and whack from scooping the EQ..... I like what Chad said about keeping it off the vox and giving it a little air on the top with a feel-it whoomp down low.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

DaleCarter said:


> The most important thing I learned when I was a noob FOH guy was how much those things affected the mix with the size of the crowd in the room. I never thought of people as gobos hahahaha


Oh yeah, I'm not an "80's soundcheck" type of guy that spends 20 minute on each drum, fortunately I know my voice so vocals go fast. Guitars, get them in there and solid but don't go nuts. That first song is literally a scramble to have it dialed in in a few measures, knowing the room and what it does helps too. To me getting it dialed in quick and anticipating the mad rush is what gives you credibility. I have seen too many "famous" engineers REFUSE tips about the room, take forever on a soundcheck in an empty room, then go absolutely FRANTIC in the first song essentially getting caught with their pants down. I love digital consoles but I despise them every first song, especially on club tours!



DaleCarter said:


> Biggst Pet Peeve - an over compressed kick mixed to far in front, with too much boom and whack from scooping the EQ..... I like what Chad said about keeping it off the vox and giving it a little air on the top with a feel-it whoomp down low.


No kidding, just because it's usually the first channel does not mean you have to treat it that way. It seems unconventional to many but I go for a punchy little to no compression kick that will drive nails on command, even though the current band I work with has possesses a 22" Gretsch kick with phenomenal low end I have to resist the temptation of making it "tongue out" and keep in mind I also have a (ding, ding, ding) bass player! Give him room and get romp out of the bass too, if your drummer and bass player are tight you will never miss the godly bottom of the kick. that bottom EQ knob on the kick rarely if never gets boosted. But I'm also a proponent of the Bass Key, where you trigger another channel of bass that opens up when the drummer stabs the kick. When implemented properly it's a WONDERFUL tool that actually adds to the tonality of the kick without making it monotonous, makes the bass player feel special too 

Chad


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## DaleCarter (Jan 3, 2008)

I never sound check anymore, a basic line check and I'm good to go. If I can hear everything with a line check, make it decent with one song and polish that turd by the end of song four.

I was the house guy for a while with garage bands on Thurs and national blues acts on Friday and Satruday. The blues dudes rarely even made it to a sound check, so I learned to rip a mix out quickly. Really fun mixing a guitar, B3, harp and male vocals clearly. I could always spot studio cats mixing FOH becasue they spent the entire night trying to get everything perfect, not realizing the game changed every thirty minutes or so. My favorite was the guys who would mix rock bands at sound check and couldn't understand why all their gains were too hot due to booze, drugs and adrenaline hitting their band members between check and first song.

The key idea is a good one. I am a bassist (primarily) and a tight rythym section works like you said with the bassist and drummer playing together to reinforce each other without help from the FOH. A smart mix just makes sure we aren't stepping on each other.


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## DaleCarter (Jan 3, 2008)

I always chuckled at "famous pro's" who thought they new the room better than I did after I had gigged there for about 12 years.

I laughed at guys who sound checked a band and wondered why everything is screwed up when the band's liquor, drugs and adrenaline hit them.

I am a bassist and you are dead on about the sound. Let them work together and everything is wonderful, just keep them from stepping on each other in the mix. I like the key idea though. 

Toughest gig I had was mixing blues bands. Two guitars, a B3, a harp and male vocals, pretty soon the midrange is pretty damned crowded.

Funniest was the garage band that was pissed that I didn't have an extra K-T 360 to insert on the kick channel.


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## Fellippe (Sep 15, 2006)

mitchyz250f said:


> In 1986 I was going to different car audio stores checking out systems. I was shown show cars with expensive super clear sound but the system the best midbass was a Toyota pickup with a pretty mundane system, nothing fancy or too expensive. I don’t know what was in the front but in the rear were two sealed ten inch woofers mounted behind the seat in a box that looked too small. They were being driven by a Rockford Fosgate amp. When the bass guitar hit your shirt and pants moved as if they were attached to the string. The kick drum was scary .
> 
> The second best midbass I have heard was an RX7 with 4 eight inch woofer. Again these were not subs but regular woofers.
> 
> ...


Agreed...but there must be a consensus on fact because there's a ton of misinformation out there in the community surrounding midbass.

Your story was great and it helps immensely to see the year "1986" attached to it. Back then it seems hi-fi car audio was at a higher level than it is today save for fancy installation techniques. 

Multiple 8s will give you midbass...don't know why this was universal knowledge back then and a mystery now. The midbass frequency range of real importance is 80-300 hz for the fundamental frequency and up to 1k to 1.5k for the harmonics. 

If you really wanted to go all out for midbass, I'd say a great sub playing up to 80, multiple 4"/5.25"/6.5" playing from 80-300, and another dedicated set playing from 300hz up to 1.5khz (or just one driver from 80-1.5k). 

In a home environment with sizey midbass drivers in proper enclosures, the subs can be dropped down to 50 hz. But in most car installs, the sub should typically go up to 80 to help out in the midbass reinforcement.

For the harmonics, a nice 5.25" would probably be best for cone drivers, but a quality horn would be better, IMHO.


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

THIS is not a plug for my website, not in the least, it is the only place I can show what it may take to reach your goals

I am not allowed to name a name so just take my word for it and my word is normally considered pretty good 

http://www.raamaudio.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?p=in

BEFORE you look, this was the height of my audio goals and something I will not be doing again, massive power, costly components, insane build time(not that pretty, it was what you do not see that matters like 300 hours in sound deadening alone

My buddy in La Jolla grew up with and played jazz bass in a band through college and then a regular club gig for years. He quite and went into the family business, years later the drummer became quite famous but not publicly. He has a great studio at his home, has engineered hundreds of albums(many he is not even mentioned on) and usually he replaces the bands drummer because he is that good. He has played with nearly everybody that has been anybody in the last couple of decades.

Anyway, he was visiting my buddy and it was mentioned I had a really nice car audio system, of course he was like, yea right

Then my buddy asked if I had the Jim Keltner Improve track in the truck and I said "of course!"

Eyes light up, he certainly recognized that name and the track

Down to the truck, luckily it was dark, much easier to focus on the music. 

I started playing is at a moderately loud level, not knowing his tolerance, etc. 

After a minute or so he put up his hand in a stop manner so I did, he asked if I could really play it loud, like live loud, I just said say when and started it over

My system would pound you in the chest but never a hint of strain or distortion. 

Soon after we started he closed his eyes and got into the track, he knew it by heart and followed it perfectly on the "air drums"

Long track, got worried my single Yellow Top would not last(still in the truck, years later and still works fine) but it lasted. 

At the end he just tipped his head down and was dead quite, I though he fell asleep 

Then he slowly looked towards me, opened his eyes and and softly said, "you just blew my mind, it felt just like I was really playing".

That was that, by far the best compliment I have ever had for anything I have ever done in my 55+ years of being an enthusiast about all I do in life. 

I believe it can be done, if you are willing to pay the price

Rick


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## Fellippe (Sep 15, 2006)

raamaudio said:


> THIS is not a plug for my website, not in the least, it is the only place I can show what it may take to reach your goals
> 
> I am not allowed to name a name so just take my word for it and my word is normally considered pretty good
> 
> ...


Great story! 

It is my duty to provide someone else with a similar experience.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

raamaudio said:


> THIS is not a plug for my website, not in the least, it is the only place I can show what it may take to reach your goals
> 
> I am not allowed to name a name so just take my word for it and my word is normally considered pretty good
> 
> ...


where is this truck now?

is the system the same?

how much $$ you want 4 it ?


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

I still have the truck, it still has the kick panels, doors panels, console, intense sound deadening but the system is a basic DIY now, Seas, RS, front stage in the kicks, single Arc 10 in the rear side, 5 channel Arc amp, 8053 HU, sounds dang incredible for what it is though

I tore out the rear to rebuild it then ended up with a different project car instead and never put it back together. I still have matching fabric and vinyl and am cosidering selling the truck, it runs and drives great, very quiet on the road, very comfortable to travel in. 

It would be hard to let it go though, only to somebody that would put it back to gether at least decently and enjoy it All the hard work is really done, superb imagining, power supply, deadening, it can and would be pretty easy to build a killer system and you do not have to go nuts. 4 good midbasses in the doors, your favorite DIY mids and tweets(full size fit fine a good sub setup, serious power and tuning and good to go It would be easy to go back to dual ID Maxes, etc, just some MDF and a bit of glass work in the back. I still have the amp rack/seat back, trim panels, etc. 

Rick


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

raamaudio said:


> I still have the truck, it still has the kick panels, doors panels, console, intense sound deadening but the system is a basic DIY now, Seas, RS, front stage in the kicks, single Arc 10 in the rear side, 5 channel Arc amp, 8053 HU, sounds dang incredible for what it is though
> 
> I tore out the rear to rebuild it then ended up with a different project car instead and never put it back together. I still have matching fabric and vinyl and am cosidering selling the truck, it runs and drives great, very quiet on the road, very comfortable to travel in.
> 
> ...


its a special kind of insanity that would tear apart a truck that sounded that good and was finished?

why rebuild something that is amazing?


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

I rebuilt it 5 times in 18 months and in the mag it was not finished, custom rear mini Recaro seats, console, etc I was working on at the time. 

My son drew up the plans, he is an incredible concept artist, it was going to just be cleaned up in the front, console done, doors looking more stock but still have the dual midbasses and then 6 tens and 8 amps in the rear but still have mini seats in an extra cab 96 Taco

( I was asked to get it ready for CES and SEMA and wanted to really do it up nice but still stealthy when wanted and a daily driver)

Rick


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## Whiterabbit (May 26, 2006)

CBRworm said:


> I have never heard a home or car audio system that could make me feel like I was sitting behind a drum set.
> 
> why is that?


Cause the mics are in front of the drums, not behind. the hi-hat is always on the wrong side


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

If you do some research you can find the info on the painstakingly long process they went through to record the Improve track, maybe that is why is may be the only one that does sound real. 

I do not have a link, etc, it was explained to me by a drummer that was quite found of the track. 

Rick


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Whiterabbit said:


> Cause the mics are in front of the drums, not behind. the hi-hat is always on the wrong side


You know...... SOME guys flip R-L, not me but some do.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Whiterabbit said:


> Cause the mics are in front of the drums, not behind. the hi-hat is always on the wrong side


Maybe you could fade to the rear speakers and pretend you have your back to the stage  [ that'll strighten out that pesky right & left thang ]


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## ///Audience (Jan 31, 2007)

Im not that big into homeaudio...yet... but i had the chance to use Darin's ambiophonics cd's on some klipsch RF-62's and spent most of my time on a drums only track...

as a drummer, i actually felt like i was there playing my own set!

it was truly remarkable and was the only speaker to give me the feel of being RIGHT THERE.

this was only experienced with just the towers... the second the sub was introduced it became to boomy with the kick.


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