# Damn Honda ELD! Any workarounds found?



## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

I realized just how much the ELD is hurting my system. When I first start my car in the morning I can get 14.4 volts before the ELD kicks in--even with my system on. Even at idle it's still producing about 14 volts. Once the ELD kicks in, the most I can get is about 13.5 volts while cruising. This may be acceptable, but at idle it can easily drop to 11.7 volts with my system on. That's not good! (I have an underdrive pulley BTW)

What this shows is that the stock alternator is perfectly capable of powering my system when allowed to run in high current mode, but it fails miserably in low current mode at idle. Has anyone thought of a way around this? Is there a resistor that could be put in the ELD to make it think the current draw is higher? I think the ELD triggers the alternator relay for high current mode. Maybe there is a way to rig the relay to run in high current mode all the time or at least put a manual switch on it. If I can't bypass the ELD, how can I trick it into thinking there is a high load required? Thoughts?


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## Bluto Blutarsky (Apr 1, 2007)

You want more output at idle and you run a pulley?


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

Bluto Blutarsky said:


> You want more output at idle and you run a pulley?


But see, that's the point. Even with a pulley it CAN still produce 14v at idle with the system running, it just WON'T because the ELD is switching it to low voltage mode

BTW, I've had the pulley for 6 years, I've only had a system for 2. When the belt goes out, I will probably put the stock pulley back on, but I'm not taking it off until I have to. It's a PITA!


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## annoyingrob (Aug 24, 2007)

You realize that an alternator only puts a load on the engine when there is a load on the electrical system. When there's little load on the electrical system, the alternator is not a major parasitic loss. 

Thus, why would you put an underdrive pulley on it in the first place? All you're doing is limiting the overall output of the alternator, ESPECIALLY at lower RPM. If the alternator is putting a load on your motor, there's something in the car that needs power, and probably shouldn't be underdriven.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

annoyingrob said:


> You realize that an alternator only puts a load on the engine when there is a load on the electrical system. When there's little load on the electrical system, the alternator is not a major parasitic loss.
> 
> Thus, why would you put an underdrive pulley on it in the first place? All you're doing is limiting the overall output of the alternator, ESPECIALLY at lower RPM. If the alternator is putting a load on your motor, there's something in the car that needs power, and probably shouldn't be underdriven.


You make a valid point, but since the alternator is still able to put out at least 14.4 volts with a decent draw from my system (when in high current mode), it stands to reason that it is making significantly more power than the car really needs that is simply being regulated away. The pulley takes away the excess and supplies only what the car can use--it takes out the safety margin. If you don't have a large system this isn't a problem. The voltage will still stay above 12v at idle even in low current mode while reducing the drag on the engine. It's a problem now at idle because I have a powerful system.


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## mojako (May 27, 2005)

what's your Honda Mooble?


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

The first 5th Gen Prelude sold in Austin












mojako said:


> what's your Honda Mooble?


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## mojako (May 27, 2005)

i see.

Haven't checked the voltage of my 07 Civic. But it's practically brand new, and my idling bottoms out when the compressor of my aircon kicks in. Happens when im in idle. Don't know it its related to this ELD thing.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Does the voltage jump up when you flip on the lights, AC clutch kicks in, etc? It should.

As we speak I'm trying to find a way to make the ELD system sense that there is an audio sustem, see, you tapped in BEFORE the ELD for your audio, I want the ELD to sense charge state of the battery and added load from the accessories. Patience, Honda is rather elusive as to how it actually works, it is a current sense thru a shunt I believe, it's located in the fusebox under the hood. It's also roumored that gouing into HO mode all the time will shorten the life of the alternator. Ideally what I'd like to do is add a secondary sensor somehow and multiplex it in with the existing sensor.


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## remeolb (Nov 6, 2009)

Has anyone figured out anything for this yet?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Look into JDM ECU's. then look into if it will pass inspection if you need it to pass inspection  or pop the old ECU in for inspection.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

It takes less than 10 minutes for me to swap ECUs.


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## bird333 (May 28, 2008)

Start reading this thread http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio-sq-forum/61734-just-did-big-three-new-battery-lights-still-dim-3.html


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## lostdaytomorrow (Jan 26, 2007)

Still have yet to find a fix to this thing, on multiple Civic forums. Can not believe nobody has figured out how to bypass this damn thing.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I found the second best fix for the ELD issues in my Civic... I sold it on 04/26/2010.


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## DanMan (Jul 18, 2008)

lostdaytomorrow said:


> Still have yet to find a fix to this thing, on multiple Civic forums. Can not believe nobody has figured out how to bypass this damn thing.



Keep_Hope_Alive on Sounddomain has come up with something. He's a sharp dude with this stuff.


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## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

here we go> http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1806468&Main=214011#Post1806468


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## lostdaytomorrow (Jan 26, 2007)

Wow, that does look interesting, and I with I understood exactly how to wire that up. 

This is apparently better than just cutting the ALTC wire. I looked for about 2 hours last night on the net for the location of the ALTC wire at the ECU but not dice. 

Many thanks to keephopealive for helping us out here.


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## scooter99 (Dec 21, 2008)

Ok so help me out with what this does exactly? I understand that it's supposed to "bypass" the eld, but what's the switch for? The relay with the remote wire would tell the relay to turn on right? I'd love to do this, but I just want to make sure I'm understanding what I'm doing before I just jump in.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

You have to engage the bypass by connecting 2 points in the relay 87A and 87

In order to do this you flip A toggle switch which allows power to flow from the remote turn on to ground ... which in turn closes your contacts and brings the ELD bypass online.


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## lostdaytomorrow (Jan 26, 2007)

I just need to know the location of the ELD ground wire, as well as the ELD to ECU, and ELD to fusebox wire.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Calculators, Charts, and Diagrams <<< Try looking around here [ scroll down ].


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## lostdaytomorrow (Jan 26, 2007)

lostdaytomorrow said:


> I just need to know the location of the ELD ground wire, as well as the ELD to ECU, and ELD to fusebox wire.


Tried 12v last night with no luck, and have asked on the honda forums as well. 

Hopefully keep_hope_alive will give us the info. over at Sound Domain.


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## cmayo117 (Aug 14, 2009)

What I did that seems to be working quit well so far is ran another cable from the battery to the fuse box, just before the ELD. Then, I ran the main cable going back to my distribution block from directly after the ELD. This allows the ELD to still do it's job, also taking my amps current draw into account. I cut a couple of small holes in the cover for the fuse box to run the cables through. 

I also ran a separate 8 gauge cable to the distribution block directly from the battery. I figured this would hopefully keep me from overloading the ELD and burning it up.


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## lostdaytomorrow (Jan 26, 2007)

cmayo117 said:


> What I did that seems to be working quit well so far is ran another cable from the battery to the fuse box, just before the ELD. Then, I ran the main cable going back to my distribution block from directly after the ELD. This allows the ELD to still do it's job, also taking my amps current draw into account. I cut a couple of small holes in the cover for the fuse box to run the cables through.
> 
> I also ran a separate 8 gauge cable to the distribution block directly from the battery. I figured this would hopefully keep me from overloading the ELD and burning it up.


Good idea, but not feasible when running 1/0 awg to the back or multiple runs of 1/0.


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## cmayo117 (Aug 14, 2009)

lostdaytomorrow said:


> Good idea, but not feasible when running 1/0 awg to the back or multiple runs of 1/0.


Yea good point, it would be just about impossible to fit anything bigger than 4 gauge in there.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

> The ECM uses the low output mode
> when the engine is starting or if all of the following parameters are met:
> electrical Load below 15 Amps (varies with vehicle),
> vehicle speed between 10-45 mph or at idle while in drive,
> ...


http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=auto_pres

Think about that.


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

chad said:


> http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=auto_pres
> 
> Think about that.


Dude who wrote that is on 6thgenaccord and we discussed this a few months ago.

I don't have a voltage gauge (and stopped talking to someone with a Solus scanner) so I don't have a way of measuring it while driving, but a few other Accord drivers confirmed that a simple thing will stop the drop...

Turn on the headlights.

One guy was going to hook his DRLs back up (Canadian model car) but never did it. 

Or just drive around in VTEC constantly :surprised: :laugh:


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I can't think of a time in my short commute where the car would be in low power mode for more than a short period of time.

But I'm not bumpin the strip, if I was, I'd have issues.


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## Nick337 (Nov 19, 2009)

I believe if you run a hondata system, you have the ability to disable the ELD. Lemme check really quick.


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## scooter99 (Dec 21, 2008)

Id be interested to hear about that, Nick, I've been thinking of doing that. 

To the switch part, why couldn't you just run a remote wire on both sides, the one that say remote as well as the one that says switch? Then it's on when the radio is on and off when off? Instead of having a switch on the dash. I've already got a couple but I'm not wanting to add another. Thoughts? Maybe I just don't understand still?


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## lostdaytomorrow (Jan 26, 2007)

scooter99 said:


> Id be interested to hear about that, Nick, I've been thinking of doing that.
> 
> To the switch part, why couldn't you just run a remote wire on both sides, the one that say remote as well as the one that says switch? Then it's on when the radio is on and off when off? Instead of having a switch on the dash. I've already got a couple but I'm not wanting to add another. Thoughts? Maybe I just don't understand still?


That would work fine.


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## lostdaytomorrow (Jan 26, 2007)

ryan s said:


> Dude who wrote that is on 6thgenaccord and we discussed this a few months ago.
> 
> I don't have a voltage gauge (and stopped talking to someone with a Solus scanner) so I don't have a way of measuring it while driving, but a few other Accord drivers confirmed that a simple thing will stop the drop...
> 
> ...


I monitor the voltage in my 8th gen Civic very closely. This does not work in my vehicle.


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## lostdaytomorrow (Jan 26, 2007)

Nick337 said:


> I believe if you run a hondata system, you have the ability to disable the ELD. Lemme check really quick.


Yes, for $695.00, it can disable the ELD.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

lostdaytomorrow said:


> Yes, for $695.00, it can disable the ELD.


you can tune your VTAK too


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Latest diagram with better labels:










Full write-up located here: http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1806841&page=0&fpart=1

I'll be including my Big 3 wiring next, just to complete the package.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

scooter99 said:


> Ok so help me out with what this does exactly? I understand that it's supposed to "bypass" the eld, but what's the switch for? The relay with the remote wire would tell the relay to turn on right? I'd love to do this, but I just want to make sure I'm understanding what I'm doing before I just jump in.


The switch allows for manual override off of the relay when the HU is on - for low volume listening sessions. For high volume listening sessions you flip the switch. I didn't want the HU to force the relay for long trips at 20% volume (family man). 




cmayo117 said:


> What I did that seems to be working quit well so far is ran another cable from the battery to the fuse box, just before the ELD. Then, I ran the main cable going back to my distribution block from directly after the ELD. This allows the ELD to still do it's job, also taking my amps current draw into account. I cut a couple of small holes in the cover for the fuse box to run the cables through.
> 
> I also ran a separate 8 gauge cable to the distribution block directly from the battery. I figured this would hopefully keep me from overloading the ELD and burning it up.


I don't like this at all. The ELD power feed is fused at 50A in my car. This is enough to feed the entire ignition system. Turn on your system, the heat, and the rear defrost and you'll probably blow your ignition fuse. Then you lose your whole car until you replace that bad boy (hopefully an autoparts store is nearby and open). You should not add any additional load to the ignition system - especially amplifiers. Adding more wires doesn't address you overloading the fuse box. Not to mention the concern with actually melting the fuse box. 

Having a parallel 8awg run means that roughly half of your amp current is going through the ELD - but that's still more than I'd be comfortable with.

I recommend you undo this ASAP before you cause very expensive damage.


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## cmayo117 (Aug 14, 2009)

keep_hope_alive said:


> I don't like this at all. The ELD power feed is fused at 50A in my car. This is enough to feed the entire ignition system. Turn on your system, the heat, and the rear defrost and you'll probably blow your ignition fuse. Then you lose your whole car until you replace that bad boy (hopefully an autoparts store is nearby and open). You should not add any additional load to the ignition system - especially amplifiers. Adding more wires doesn't address you overloading the fuse box. Not to mention the concern with actually melting the fuse box.
> 
> Having a parallel 8awg run means that roughly half of your amp current is going through the ELD - but that's still more than I'd be comfortable with.
> 
> I recommend you undo this ASAP before you cause very expensive damage.


The only thing the extra current is running through is the ELD. Power wire is coming in from the battery directly before the ELD and out directly after, so the only thing that is seeing a bigger load is the ELD, not the fuse box. Once the current draw gets close to the max the ELD is capable of handling, the extra resistance will cause most of any additional current to flow through the 8 gauge cable. 

I see what you are saying and appreciate the concern and all the great information on the topic. You probably know more than I do about how the ELD works, and what I suggested probably would be a bad idea for someone running much more power than me and/ or less efficient amps. But, within reason, I think it's ok to allow the ELD to do it's job and kick the alternator voltage up when needed, and I may be wrong, but I really don't see how I could damage anything with the way I have it set up now.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

I do like your thinking, and if you were able to upgrade to a larger ELD then we'd have a solution. But that ELD isn't offered by Honda - you have to buy the whole fuse box to get it. ebay has some, but it's ebay and they are pulled from junked cars. 

Your solution takes a part that wouldn't fail and turns it into a part that will fail - and one that's not easy to find. 

I like your creativity, and I understand you're not going through the fuse. That is still of concern, you're putting more current through those terminals also something they aren't rated for. 

I've seen people melt their fuse box. It's a fawking mess and a stupid amount of time to repair. You don't want that. I believe a high power audio system should be 100% independent of factory wiring. I don't even power my passive head unit through the car's ignition system (i switch a 10awg battery feed with a relay - coil powered by factory radio ignition source).

I only make a big deal out of it because I don't want you to suffer the same fate as others. We must always be careful to not exceed factory specs - and avoiding adding load to parts we don't understand is part of that. I don't know the current handling capabilities of the ELD either. Therefore, I won't add load to it.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

You can get the ELD module for my car, I can get you the PN if you would like.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

chad said:


> You can get the ELD module for my car, I can get you the PN if you would like.


Maybe I should clarify that on some Honda's, including mine, it's only sold with the fuse box. It wouldn't surprise me if that has changed since 2001. 

Since there are different types, with different mounting configurations, they really need to be year/model specific.


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## bird333 (May 28, 2008)

First thanks for posting this. A couple of questions. 

1. Should this work for all Hondas or will the resistor value need to change depending on the car? For example, I have a 96 Accord.

2. I already have two amps connected to my remote turn-on, will adding this relay to my remote turn-on be too much for my headunit?

Thanks!


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## cmayo117 (Aug 14, 2009)

keep_hope_alive said:


> I do like your thinking, and if you were able to upgrade to a larger ELD then we'd have a solution. But that ELD isn't offered by Honda - you have to buy the whole fuse box to get it. ebay has some, but it's ebay and they are pulled from junked cars.
> 
> Your solution takes a part that wouldn't fail and turns it into a part that will fail - and one that's not easy to find.
> 
> ...


Now that I think about it more, you're probably right. My idea might work fine, but I really don't want to burn up the ELD or anything else. I think I might try the bypass circuit you posted as that would be a safer solution.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

bird333 said:


> First thanks for posting this. A couple of questions.
> 
> 1. Should this work for all Hondas or will the resistor value need to change depending on the car? For example, I have a 96 Accord.
> 
> ...


The concept is the same for all Honda's with an ELD, but the actual resistor value may change. I have not looked deeper into the differences between engine sizes and years/makes/models. 

If you do this, you should verify the resistor size is appropriate by measuring the ELD sense green/red wire on the ECM/PCM connection with the switch engaged and ignition on. If the voltage is below 1.8VDC, you should increase your resistor value. If the ELD sense voltage is above 2.3VDC, you should decrease the resistor value. After my measurements, I started with a 1k ohm resistor, then dropped to 820 ohm. 

You don't want to overload your remote turn-on. To be safe, you want to be less than 200mA on the remote turn-on lead - but that really does vary for each head unit manufacturer/model. A typical car amp pulls <30mA on the remote lead, but some amps as much as a few hundred milli-amps. A relay coil depends on the coil resistance, but is usually around 160mA for a Bosch style relay. You can buy relays with higher coil resistance and thus much lower coil current. I usually have a relay since i'm controlling other things anyway, unless i specifically measure the remote current draw for the amps and know the remote output capability of the head unit.

In my case, my PXA-H701 provides the remote turn-on signal at my amps, so my HU remote wasn't being used. That is not the norm for most people. 

For the case of a HU providing remote turn-on for the ELD bypass AND the amplifiers, I recommend adding a relay on the remote output for your amps and the bypass circuit. Try to choose one with a higher coil resistance (>100 ohms).


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