# I'm close to throwing the towel in on infinite baffle...



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

I'm getting flustered, Just when I think I have it dialed in, I'll listen to a song that I know has bass, but i can barely hear it. I'll turn up the level....and it doesnt get any louder, just sounds like crap. 
The 4 6.5" flutes almost do it for me on their own, but some songs just need the extra hit of subs. Especially when i have the windows rolled down. I have some ideas on what i want to try, but wanted to see what you guys think would be my better choice...

(equipment is pioneer 1500nex headunit, punch 4x100 and 1x750 amps, dayton DSP-LP for the subs, (2) 8" audiophile subs, (4) 6.5" silverflutes, Whispers in the dash along with some dayton AMT tweets, 2004 GTO)

SO heres my thoughts.... I could order a set of cerwin vega 8's and a set of kicker comp C 8's and see what sounds better, hate to do it but amazon has a great return policy so i could test both. Maybe I'll get lucky. I was also planning on trying the tangband w6 6.5" subs i have since i added that LP dsp AND trying the blaupunkt 8's I had in there also. Since then i've sealed and deadened the trunk much better and the dsp-LP helps too. OR>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I could get a set of 8" flutes for the back deck and add those on the rear channels with the rear 6.5" flutes in the side panels and then just bite the bullet and put my sub in the box back in the trunk. Or I could do the same with the tangband 6.5's or even the blaupunkts. That will give me a little more accurate "kick" inside the car and use the box sub for like 80hz and below. 
Or...I could use the factory amp on the rear deck speakers and still add my sub back in. I'm just more or less brain storming. I may get a wild hair this evening and pull the back seat and deck out and start swapping speakers. I dunno...I'm just getting aggravated because its just not what I want yet.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

How well is the front and back wave separated? Do you have the rear seats, and the rear deck baffled?

Swapping 8" subs will most likely just add to your frustration, similar sized subs will have similar output, you shouldn't expect a different pair of the same sized subs to have drastically different output. Sure, there may be a pair that out perform the others, but I wouldn't expect it to be by much, and the trial and error that it will take to find out may leave you even more frustrated. 

Do you know anybody close by that can come check it out, maybe someone with a microphone and REW? It's tough to suggest fixes without knowing where the problem is, but as I said before I wouldn't expect drastically different results unless you step up to much more displacement. Most people would say that a pair of 8's IB won't cut it, I ran a pair of 15's and although I didn't need to push them very hard, I can't imagine 8's being satisfying.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

My output increased with a third of the power when I went IB. Don't get me wrong the high end cut had to be lowered considerably but the low end increased noticably. 

I'm with Gijoe. You may have cancellation or lost output at certain frequencies do to a flexing baffle or the front and rear waves interacting.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Where are your IB subs located, in the rear deck?

I have a 2005 GTO, and am having a hard time visualizing where you have subs mounted in an IB config with the fuel tank in the way.

BTW: I'm finally getting my car to sound great, just with front components and a sub box in the trunk. No rear side speakers, and no rear deck speakers. I did do a LOT of sound treatment though.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

gijoe said:


> How well is the front and back wave separated? Do you have the rear seats, and the rear deck baffled?
> 
> Swapping 8" subs will most likely just add to your frustration, similar sized subs will have similar output, you shouldn't expect a different pair of the same sized subs to have drastically different output. Sure, there may be a pair that out perform the others, but I wouldn't expect it to be by much, and the trial and error that it will take to find out may leave you even more frustrated.
> 
> Do you know anybody close by that can come check it out, maybe someone with a microphone and REW? It's tough to suggest fixes without knowing where the problem is, but as I said before I wouldn't expect drastically different results unless you step up to much more displacement. Most people would say that a pair of 8's IB won't cut it, I ran a pair of 15's and although I didn't need to push them very hard, I can't imagine 8's being satisfying.


Well the car has a metal fire wall separating the seat and the trunk because of a gas tank. Then I used dynamat all over to seal off the holes. Most holes have dynamat on the cabin side and truck side to serve as double thickness on the holes. 
the 8’s have enough output for me. The problem is the current 8’s I have get silent below 30hz, peak by about 15db more at 40hz then get quiet again around 100hz with dips in volume around 50-60hz. I used the dsp to compensate but I just think these subs aren’t doing it. The Blaupunkts propped lower, cleaner and went higher. But the 40hz peak (cabin gain?) caused them to bottom badly before I had the dsp to control that. I’ve yet to try them again, but I need to.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Where are your IB subs located, in the rear deck?
> 
> I have a 2005 GTO, and am having a hard time visualizing where you have subs mounted in an IB config with the fuel tank in the way.
> 
> BTW: I'm finally getting my car to sound great, just with front components and a sub box in the trunk. No rear side speakers, and no rear deck speakers. I did do a LOT of sound treatment though.


in the rear deck. I did a lot of deadening too. The interior speakers sound great, it’s just the subs don’t sound right. Not enough frequency spread to them. (Note, this isn’t the deadening I have now. I pulled that out and used better stuff and did a better job).


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

I really don't think you're going to get anything below 30hz from a pair of 8's. Low frequencies require big displacement. We aren't very sensitive to frequencies that low so they need to be loud in order to be perceived as the same volume as the higher frequencies. 

Cabin gain will not cause the subs to bottom out, cabin gain is "free" output. The vehicles interior reinforces certain frequencies, so the speaker actually works less to produce those frequencies.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

KFXGUY said:


> Well the car has a metal fire wall separating the seat and the trunk because of a gas tank. Then I used dynamat all over to seal off the holes. Most holes have dynamat on the cabin side and truck side to serve as double thickness on the holes.
> the 8’s have enough output for me. The problem is the current 8’s I have get silent below 30hz, peak by about 15db more at 40hz then get quiet again around 100hz with dips in volume around 50-60hz. I used the dsp to compensate but I just think these subs aren’t doing it. The Blaupunkts propped lower, cleaner and went higher. But the 40hz peak (cabin gain?) caused them to bottom badly before I had the dsp to control that. I’ve yet to try them again, but I need to.


I've been following your post... IB 8" is no bueno! Dude if Ida didn't have my balls in a sling I'd bring my laptop and mic over and see what's what. I live in Metairie and just got back in my house with power Monday. Bet you're glad that bad b!tch took a last minute turn to the right! My project has moved to the back burner temporarily! Stay in touch and let's try and get together sooner than later. Dave


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

I tried 6.5" Tang Band subs in that location, and was never satisfied with them. When I treated the interior, I put CLD tiles on the rear wall, and then hung MLV over it as well. I left the 6.5" holes in the rear deck open, but put a 6.5" round, 4" thick piece of OCF in there, along with a 1/4" piece of CCF on top. So the high frequency noise of the fuel pump is blocked, but low frequencies can pass.

Then I just dropped in the Rockford P300-12 unit, and it's been great! I have it crossed over at 63hHz, and my door speakers (Hertz 6.5" mids) crossed over at 80Hz. The sound is very well balanced, and imaged out onto the hood ... and the bass is perfect. My trunk space is significantly compromised though ... which I assume you are trying to avoid?


If you happen to be somewhere near Central Texas, I'd be happy to let you listen?

These cars are definitely a pain to figure out, and I'm doubtful you'll ever be satisfied with an IB setup in the rear deck. 

For those who don't know, here is what it looks like under the rear deck. This pic was taken when I still had the 6.5" Tang Band woofers in place ... and I had to trim the fuel tank strap a bit for them to clear. Yes, that large black plastic thing is the cover over the fuel tank.










Here's what it looks like on the inside, with the seat cushions removed










I did CLD:










And MLV:










And I'm still not sure an IB setup would work ... there are more holes on the sides, where the wheel wells are, which extend into the trunk area. I used these to pass signal and power cables through.

But for an IB setup, they would all have to be damped and air sealed. I don't think CLD alone (ie: Dynamat) is enough to seal it off completely.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

gijoe said:


> I really don't think you're going to get anything below 30hz from a pair of 8's. Low frequencies require big displacement. We aren't very sensitive to frequencies that low so they need to be loud in order to be perceived as the same volume as the higher frequencies.
> 
> Cabin gain will not cause the subs to bottom out, cabin gain is "free" output. The vehicles interior reinforces certain frequencies, so the speaker actually works less to produce those frequencies.


I misunderstood what "cabin gain" meant. At 40hz, with all subs i've tried so far, the output if far greater than other frequencies and without a way to pull some volume from that particular frequency, all the subs i tried will rattle and bottom out. The blau's actually sounded good below 30hz but the 40hz rattle ould be unbearable if I turned it up. Now that i can control that, they may work out better.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

DaveG said:


> I've been following your post... IB 8" is no bueno! Dude if Ida didn't have my balls in a sling I'd bring my laptop and mic over and see what's what. I live in Metairie and just got back in my house with power Monday. Bet you're glad that bad b!tch took a last minute turn to the right! My project has moved to the back burner temporarily! Stay in touch and let's try and get together sooner than later. Dave


Yea maybe one day I can ride out your way. Ive been looking at mic setups today, just contemplating. Then I think to myself, just throw the dang sub box back in the trunk and be done with it! But i hate giving up the little room i have. 
Yea we actually got hammered pretty hard in my area. We were lucky though, i only lost power for 8-9 days. We just got it back.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> I tried 6.5" Tang Band subs in that location, and was never satisfied with them. When I treated the interior, I put CLD tiles on the rear wall, and then hung MLV over it as well. I left the 6.5" holes in the rear deck open, but put a 6.5" round, 4" thick piece of OCF in there, along with a 1/4" piece of CCF on top. So the high frequency noise of the fuel pump is blocked, but low frequencies can pass.
> 
> Then I just dropped in the Rockford P300-12 unit, and it's been great! I have it crossed over at 63hHz, and my door speakers (Hertz 6.5" mids) crossed over at 80Hz. The sound is very well balanced, and imaged out onto the hood ... and the bass is perfect. My trunk space is significantly compromised though ... which I assume you are trying to avoid?
> 
> ...




I'm glad you posted those pics! Lets everyone see what I'm dealing with. I did seal off all of the areas in the trunk including the big crevices' in the 1/4 panels that lead up behind the real panel speakers. I have more deadener on mine tho, I pretty much left no meatal surfaces uncovered. What exactly did you use to block out the fuel pump noise? I was thinking passive radiators or leave the speaker holes open and put sound deadener INSIDE the plastic casing on the fuel tank. I have two aeromotive 340's in my tank.....


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

You will always want more from your ib 8s man. 
You need more cone area for ib
For reference a popular sub on here is the sql 12. 
In a sealed box with 1500 watts guys are happy. 
The 2 8s have about the same amount of cone area. 
Ib has limited output compared to sealed. 
So you want to much man. 
I have a ported 6.5 in the passenger foot well of a 19 kia rio and it sounds decent. 
So maybe try that man.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Use bigger subs. Also lose those plastic baffles.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

miniSQ said:


> Use bigger subs. Also lose those plastic baffles.


What plastic baffles? The mounts?


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## Old'sCool (May 16, 2021)

+1000 to what MiniSQ said.

A single 15 in IB is my favorite sub setup. What's with the rectangular sheet metal spot dead center in the rear fire wall? Can that be replaced with a 1.5" thick plywood baffle for a 12 or 15? Or is there something lurking there?

8s are for midbass, unless you're driving a tiny hatchback like a Fit or Yaris.

Bigger sub equals lower bass. Especially free air/I.B.

Two 10s might work, if you can get them to squeeze in the rear deck, but in IB setups, I'm not a fan of the cones facing up in a rear deck. They have no rear spring aside from the suspension of the woofer. They are gonna fight themselves in a rear deck. Even tiny little 8s.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

KFXGUY said:


> What plastic baffles? The mounts?


yes.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> What exactly did you use to block out the fuel pump noise?


My wife had some 4" thick foam left over from a project she was doing, and I cut two circles out of it. It was white though, so I topped them with black second skin closed cell foam I had left over ... so when the rear deck cover is in place, you don't see anything through the speaker grills. The OCF and CCF combo blocks out the noise from my stock fuel pump. When I 1st put everything together, I just left the holes open, and the fuel pump noise was too much. The foam circles did the trick though, since the frequency of the fuel pump is so high.



Old'sCool said:


> What's with the rectangular sheet metal spot dead center in the rear fire wall? Can that be replaced with a 1.5" thick plywood baffle for a 12 or 15? Or is there something lurking there?


Yes, the fuel tank is lurking behind that panel ... scroll up and see my post above.

The fuel tank in these cars is located in the trunk.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

miniSQ said:


> yes.


Scroll up and see the pictures I posted. Without the mounts, you can't fit any speaker in there at all, as the magnet will hit the fuel tank. I'm surprised he got 8" in there to begin with!


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Scroll up and see the pictures I posted. Without the mounts, you can't fit any speaker in there at all, as the magnet will hit the fuel tank. I'm surprised he got 8" in there to begin with!


This. I printed them with a lot of infill. I doubt they flex at all and the are about 1/4” thick.


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## Old'sCool (May 16, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> My wife had some 4" thick foam left over from a project she was doing, and I cut two circles out of it. It was white though, so I topped them with black second skin closed cell foam I had left over ... so when the rear deck cover is in place, you don't see anything through the speaker grills. The OCF and CCF combo blocks out the noise from my stock fuel pump. When I 1st put everything together, I just left the holes open, and the fuel pump noise was too much. The foam circles did the trick though, since the frequency of the fuel pump is so high.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dawwwwwww. Well, that rules out a giant sub in the center.


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## Old'sCool (May 16, 2021)

Old'sCool said:


> Dawwwwwww. Well, that rules out a giant sub in the center.


Unless...you built a slanted baffle and used the two 8" holes as vents. You could still keep 95% of your trunk, too. Just have a baffle at a slight angle to force the sound through the rear deck?


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Stoopalini said:


> Scroll up and see the pictures I posted. Without the mounts, you can't fit any speaker in there at all, as the magnet will hit the fuel tank. I'm surprised he got 8" in there to begin with!


You need to use mounts, but you need dense ridged mounts, not flimsy plastic ones.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Old'sCool said:


> Unless...you built a slanted baffle and used the two 8" holes as vents. You could still keep 95% of your trunk, too. Just have a baffle at a slight angle to force the sound through the rear deck?


The fuel tank is in the trunk, behind that flat panel, under the rear deck. It extends from the right to the left, taking up the entire space under the rear deck, and extends toward three rear of the car, past the 3rd brake light in the rear window.

There’s really no opportunity for a slanted baffle to vent through the rear deck.

The car is actually a Holden Monaro, rebadged as a Pontiac GTO. The story is that GM was forced to relocate the fuel tank into the trunk to meet USA regulations. Apparently the tank hung too low with the Aussie design?


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

gijoe said:


> You need to use mounts, but you need dense ridged mounts, not flimsy plastic ones.


They aren’t flimsy. 85% infill. Gyroid pattern. 1/4” thick plastic and the flange has a fillet in it.


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## MattAFLiving (Aug 27, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> They aren’t flimsy. 85% infill. Gyroid pattern. 1/4” thick plastic and the flange has a fillet in it.


Certainly no expert on the sound stuff, but I know 3D printing pretty well. Those look like really solid adapter rings but I wonder if they are causing an issue by tunneling the sound waves. Kinda like yelling down a paper towel tube.
For IB don’t you want as much open space behind the subwoofer as possible?


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

MattAFLiving said:


> Certainly no expert on the sound stuff, but I know 3D printing pretty well. Those look like really solid adapter rings but I wonder if they are causing an issue by tunneling the sound waves. Kinda like yelling down a paper towel tube.
> For IB don’t you want as much open space behind the subwoofer as possible?


you could be on to something. Maybe I should try opening the holes up in the back deck.


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## MattAFLiving (Aug 27, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> you could be on to something. Maybe I should try opening the holes up in the back deck.


 If you don’t mind opening them up so they can mount flush without the adapters it would probably be worth it.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> you could be on to something. Maybe I should try opening the holes up in the back deck.


Have you thought about building enclosures for the 8" woofers, to fit behind the rear sail panels? I think you would get more of what you're looking for by doing that, instead of trying to make an IB setup work in the rear deck.

There's a guy in Australia who printed enclosures for 9" woofers to fit that space ... He's a great guy too, and might be willing to share his 3D printer files with you? Let me know if you want his contact info.












MattAFLiving said:


> If you don’t mind opening them up so they can mount flush without the adapters it would probably be worth it.


There's not enough depth to flush mount anything back there. There really is no room under that rear deck.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

MattAFLiving said:


> If you don’t mind opening them up so they can mount flush without the adapters it would probably be worth it.


Yea that would be impossible. Not enough depth. They touch the gas tank as it is now. I mean I could take the gas tank out....,but....lol


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Have you thought about building enclosures for the 8" woofers, to fit behind the rear sail panels? I think you would get more of what you're looking for by doing that, instead of trying to make an IB setup work in the rear deck.
> 
> There's a guy in Australia who printed enclosures for 9" woofers to fit that space ... He's a great guy too, and might be willing to share his 3D printer files with you? Let me know if you want his contact info.
> 
> ...


I can’t imagine the sound being able to make its way out of that little 4-4.5” grill on the side panel...and it not rattle badly.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> I can’t imagine the sound being able to make its way out of that little 4-4.5” grill on the side panel...and it not rattle badly.


Subwoofers work very well in that location. The sound doesn't need to make its way out of the 4.5" grill, as sub frequencies are not stopped by the trim panel. 

Many guys have installed 8", 10", 12" and even 13" shallow subs in there with great results. Hendrix engineering used to make fiberglass enclosures for it even, but they stopped offering them a few years back due to such low demand (ie: limited number of GTOs on the road).


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Subwoofers work very well in that location. The sound doesn't need to make its way out of the 4.5" grill, as sub frequencies are not stopped by the trim panel.
> 
> Many guys have installed 8", 10", 12" and even 13" shallow subs in there with great results. Hendrix engineering used to make fiberglass enclosures for it even, but they stopped offering them a few years back due to such low demand (ie: limited number of GTOs on the road).


How does the plastic panel not rattle tho? For that matter, I bet I could stuff some bazooka tubes in there. I’m kidding. Wait...am I? I need to do some measuring now..... that wouldn’t be a bad idea.....


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> How does the plastic panel not rattle tho? For that matter, I bet I could stuff some bazooka tubes in there. I’m kidding. Wait...am I? I need to do some measuring now..... that wouldn’t be a bad idea.....


You just deaden the panel.

Here's some info I found a while back, when I was researching it. This guy put 8" woofers inside MDF boxes he built for the space. I think the 3D printed designs are MUCH better, but this gives you an idea of what can be done with the space.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> You just deaden the panel.
> 
> Here's some info I found a while back, when I was researching it. This guy put 8" woofers inside MDF boxes he built for the space. I think the 3D printed designs are MUCH better, but this gives you an idea of what can be done with the space.
> 
> ...


Yea I saw those boxes long ago, I have that picture of the measurements saved in my phone. I never really considered that because I thought the panels would rattle.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> Yea I saw those boxes long ago, I have that picture of the measurements saved in my phone. I never really considered that because I thought the panels would rattle.


I think as long as you treated the area appropriately, it would be fine. 

For my car, I put CLD on anything which seemed to resonate ...










.... then I followed it up with MLV inside the cavity, and CCF anywhere the trim panel made contact with the body. I actually don't have these rear speakers even hooked up, but ... all rattles and vibrations were removed from doing this. It also significantly cut down on rear tire noise coming into the cabin (due to the MLV)


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Maybe I missed it, but I dont see anything here about a SS filter. With only 2 8in subs for your sub-stage you don't have nearly enough displacement for anything below 40hz with any sort of authority.
So you are probably distorting them to death and running them hard into xmax when you touch your gain knob.
You have no sort of air spring on the cone. So it wants to move like crazy. Unless you limit that, it's going to sound rough at high volumes if there is any sub 40hz content in the music you are listening to.
If you want to run IB and not make an enclosure for them, your gonna have to fab something up for larger drivers with more displacement imo.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

So I just got through taking it all apart again. I yanked one of the audiophile subs out and replaced it with a Blaupunkt. Did some swapping back and forth testing. Now I see why I took the Blaupunkts out. No matter what, they bottom too easy. Even with all the deadening and sealing I did. And the dsp. Dont matter. The audiophile subs pretty much trounce them. I’m leaving my interior apart and order a few other subs to try. No point in trying the 6.5’s I have because I remember the Blaupunkts beat those. I think I’m gonna order some cerwin Vega Vegas to try and some kicker comp c’s. I may order one of each. Skar has an 8” sub so I may order that too. I’m determined to make this work. I dunno why. I guess I’m seeing it as a challenge at this point.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Think of it in terms of displacement alone. You have four 6.5in mids, each of them has a cone area of 132cm each. Then you have two 8 in subs with a cone area of roughly 216cm each. You have 18% more cone area with your mids than you do with your subs. So it's not a surprise your mids are giving you nearly what you want and the subs are underwhelming.
132 x 4 = 528cm vs 216 x 2 = 432cm

That doesn't take into account linear travel, but even if your subs have 2x the xmax of your mids, that's still only 60% more air moved at xmax.
With have the same SPL level at one octave lower, you need to move 4x the amount of air. 
So if you wanted to be able to match the spl capability of your mids running at 80hz @ xmax w/ 528cm, you would need to be displacing 2112cm. Drop that down to 30hz and you need 4224cm displaced. That also doesn't take into account the rise in the lower octave that is typically wanted.
Moral of the story, if you want to keep up with the 4 6.5in mids, you need to displace much more air than two 8in subs will provide when running in IB without a SS filter in place.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

So you either need to be more realistic about the amount of bass that 2 typical 8in subs are capable of, or you need drivers that have massive amounts of travel and a high cone area. Something like 2 JL w7 8in.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> So I just got through taking it all apart again. I yanked one of the audiophile subs out and replaced it with a Blaupunkt. Did some swapping back and forth testing. Now I see why I took the Blaupunkts out. No matter what, they bottom too easy. Even with all the deadening and sealing I did. And the dsp. Dont matter. The audiophile subs pretty much trounce them. I’m leaving my interior apart and order a few other subs to try. No point in trying the 6.5’s I have because I remember the Blaupunkts beat those. I think I’m gonna order some cerwin Vega Vegas to try and some kicker comp c’s. I may order one of each. Skar has an 8” sub so I may order that too. I’m determined to make this work. I dunno why. I guess I’m seeing it as a challenge at this point.


Man....stop wasting your money. All of the subs you just mentioned have about the same SD and xmax. So just physically speaking they will all sound the same.
Except for the kicker comp. That might be the worst sub kicker has ever sold. 
If printed a better bracket and used 10 inch subs it would be much better suited. 
You said you might cut the back deck to open it up a little? Cut it. Print better adapters and problems solved.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> So you either need to be more realistic about the amount of bass that 2 typical 8in subs are capable of, or you need drivers that have massive amounts of travel and a high cone area. Something like 2 JL w7 8in.


I've been saying all this since like 3 threads ago. 
He believes he just needs a sub that was designed for infinite baffle. That is 8 inches. And also doesn't cost a lot. 
I was called pretentious I think. Lol.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Think of it in terms of displacement alone. You have four 6.5in mids, each of them has a cone area of 132cm each. Then you have two 8 in subs with a cone area of roughly 216cm each. You have 18% more cone area with your mids than you do with your subs. So it's not a surprise your mids are giving you nearly what you want and the subs are underwhelming.
> 132 x 4 = 528cm vs 216 x 2 = 432cm
> 
> That doesn't take into account linear travel, but even if your subs have 2x the xmax of your mids, that's still only 60% more air moved at xmax.
> ...


Maybe you are right when you are talking about just the total air displacement, considering just spl, but one larger speaker with more cone area than two smaller speakers with drop lower. For example, two 8” subs displace 50.24 square inches of cone area whereas a single 15” sub has 47.1” of cone area but we all know that the 15” is going to catch a lower note much easier. This isn’t about just overall spl. I want good sound over a wider range of frequencies. I know two 8’s can do what I want, I just haven’t found the right driver yet. I’ve only tried two anyways. The bad thing about this is I can’t change the volume of the trunk (think changing box design or size) to change the sound, so I’m having to try different drivers. I keep seeing you guys keep harping on bigger subs, bigger subs....I get it. But it’s not an option. I don’t have the room in the deck for it. Or the depth. I wish I did because this would be much easier.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Man....stop wasting your money. All of the subs you just mentioned have about the same SD and xmax. So just physically speaking they will all sound the same.
> Except for the kicker comp. That might be the worst sub kicker has ever sold.
> If printed a better bracket and used 10 inch subs it would be much better suited.
> You said you might cut the back deck to open it up a little? Cut it. Print better adapters and problems solved.


Car is apart right now. I’m going measure. Be right back.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Car is apart right now. I’m going measure. Be right back.


That's what ime talking about. Let's cut some **** up now man. Make some real progress on this thing so you can feel that 2 chains. Motherfucking right.....


----------



## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Did I just slip one by the old censor there. ^^^ lol


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

I didn’t even bother measuring. It’s not doable, not enough room.







Yes


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> Maybe you are right when you are talking about just the total air displacement, considering just spl, but one larger speaker with more cone area than two smaller speakers with drop lower. For example, two 8” subs displace 50.24 square inches of cone area whereas a single 15” sub has 47.1” of cone area but we all know that the 15” is going to catch a lower note much easier. This isn’t about just overall spl. I want good sound over a wider range of frequencies. I know two 8’s can do what I want, I just haven’t found the right driver yet. I’ve only tried two anyways. The bad thing about this is I can’t change the volume of the trunk (think changing box design or size) to change the sound, so I’m having to try different drivers. I keep seeing you guys keep harping on bigger subs, bigger subs....I get it. But it’s not an option. I don’t have the room in the deck for it. Or the depth. I wish I did because this would be much easier.


Yes and no. It all has to do with displacement in the lowest octaves.
Will a larger sub tend to play lower? Yes. But is it ALWAYS the truthful? No.
But that is because of 2 main things. Displacement potential, and driver resonance. Larger drivers tend to have a lower resonant frequency due to the extra mass of the larger cone, spider, coil, and surround.

There are 15 in midranges used for prosound that have a high FS, low excursion, and can't play below 100hz for anything. There are also 6in drivers like the exodus anarchy with a FS of 40hz and the 5in dayton epique with a fs of 40.

At the end of the day, in a low order enclosure (like IB and sealed), displacement is all that matters for the last octaves.


----------



## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

I will say this one last time before I give up.
If you want to have more low end than your 4 6in speakers will provide, 2 8in subs will NOT give you what you are looking for in IB. If you want response below 40hz at a reasonable SPL, you plain and simple need more cone area or you need to go to a higher order enclosure like ported or a bandpass.
If you are fine with +45hz, than a subsonic filter at 40hz and more power MAY give you what you are after.


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KFXGUY said:


> ... two 8” subs displace 50.24 square inches of cone area whereas a single 15” sub has 47.1” of cone area ...


Two 8" circles = 100.54 in^2 
One 15" circle = 176.71 in^2


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Grinder said:


> Two 8" circles = 100.54 in^2
> One 15" circle = 176.71 in^2


You right, I was in a hurry to prove you wrong and I did that wrong. That’s what I get! Lol


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KFXGUY said:


> You right, I was in a hurry to prove you wrong and I did that wrong. That’s what I get! Lol


I think you have mistaken me for someone else, as that was my first post in this thread.


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Grinder said:


> I think you have mistaken me for someone else, as that was my first post in this thread.


Well I didn’t go back and look who posted, I was just in a hurry to prove someone wrong. In which it backfired on me. Lol


----------



## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> I didn’t even bother measuring. It’s not doable, not enough room.
> View attachment 310896
> Yes
> View attachment 310898
> View attachment 310899


Can you take those again with a tape measure and maybe a better aspect. Maybe back up a little. 
2 10 inch woofers are about the same as a 15 inch. 
But if those are 8 inch woofers...you have room it looks like. Unless those are 6.5 inch woofers.


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Can you take those again with a tape measure and maybe a better aspect. Maybe back up a little.
> 2 10 inch woofers are about the same as a 15 inch.
> But if those are 8 inch woofers...you have room it looks like. Unless those are 6.5 inch woofers.


I assure you, two10’s aren’t gonna fit. If they would, I’d just do that.


----------



## cathul (Jul 2, 2018)

Can you give up some trunk space? If yes, build a 4th order box and route the port through the rear deck. If done correctly it should give you a lot more bass than you have now.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> Well I didn’t go back and look who posted, I was just in a hurry to prove someone wrong. In which it backfired on me. Lol


Just to be clear, I don't mean to be rude. I just mean to save you a lot of time and trouble of replacing subs a bunch of times and still not getting your desired result.

If you are stuck with 8in subs in IB as the only configuration that will work, look into jl w7 subs. They have an 8in that moves a ton of air for its size.
JL Audio 8W7AE-3

It has 245cm of cone area with 19mm xmax vs the typical ~215 of an 8in sub w/ ~10mm xmax. That is 931cm3 peak to peak. Compared to a typical 8in of around 431cm3 peak to peak (taken from a 8in focal flax Evo w/ 216cm cone area and 10mm xmax). So each of those JLs will move twice the amount of air as a typical 8in sub. And you are approaching what a good 10in sub will put out (and a typical 10in sub will have much more xmax than most 8in subs)


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Just to be clear, I don't mean to be rude. I just mean to save you a lot of time and trouble of replacing subs a bunch of times and still not getting your desired result.
> 
> If you are stuck with 8in subs in IB as the only configuration that will work, look into jl w7 subs. They have an 8in that moves a ton of air for its size.
> JL Audio 8W7AE-3
> ...


Thanks for the suggestion. That sub is way too deep to fit. What I have now hits and it’s just under 5” depth. The jl subs are 6 7/8” deep, the only thing I could do to make them fit is delete the gas tank. Wait that’s a good idea. I could convert the car to electric and then I could fit some $1200 subs too. Lol! Seriously though. I left the interior apart as I decide what I want to do. 
i think this evening I’m going to get the plasma cutter out and cut the hole out correctly so the speaker can breathe. Maybe some of the distortion I’m getting is due to the lack of correct airflow.


----------



## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

What do you mean breathe? IB is the ultimate "breather". Explain please.


----------



## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Theslaking said:


> What do you mean breathe? IB is the ultimate "breather". Explain please.


He's talking about opening up the hole in the sheet metal, since it's barely large enough to allow the magnet to fit through.










That's the fuel tank under the sub, and you can see where the magnet is making contact with the fuel tank strap.

I don't think opening up this hole will help the 8" subs ... now if opening up this hole, and printing new mounts to allow 10" subs to be mounted would work ... that's a good choice. 

@KFXGUY ... Have you considered shallow 10" woofers and a new mount design to allow them to fit under the rear deck cover? I think a 10" woofer's magnet could fit through the rear deck sheet metal, without having to modify the base footprint of your adapters where they mount to the deck.


----------



## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Based on your pictures, it looked like some shallow 10s would fit if you are okay with getting out the plasma cutter. Which it seems like you are


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KFXGUY said:


> ... i think this evening I’m going to get the plasma cutter out and cut the hole out correctly so the speaker can breathe. *Maybe some of the distortion I’m getting is due to the lack of correct airflow.*


Here's a few threads with some discussion of subwoofer compression/restricted airflow.








How big does aperiodic vent really need to be ? IB vs AP...


Like everyone else I'm looking to save space but still have some serious sub. I love the IB in my sedan (vented to the trunk) and would like to replicate it in my crew cab truck. I'm intrigued by the installs where they cut some floor out to mount an IB woofer but I just can't imagine it doesn't...




www.diymobileaudio.com












IB sub placemement


The OE system has a 8.5" opening on the rear deck for an OE sub. I have a 12" sub suitable for IB with a 9" cone area. My plan is to build a "step-down" spacer (12"-8.5") and mount the sub there. Can I get away with not enlarging the hole without causing any issues? Basically, a 12" sub firing...




www.diymobileaudio.com












Subwoofer output with partial obstruction of cone


Sorry, it is a bit difficult to describe, so let me use an example: In an IB install, the 15" sub is mounted against the rear seat and "fires" through a 10x14" opening. How much of the output of the front wave is lost due to the smaller opening? I seem to remember a similar discussion a while...




www.diymobileaudio.com


----------



## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Grinder said:


> Here's a few threads with some discussion of subwoofer compression/restricted airflow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, air is tremendously compressible. If anything, the issue would be less with the restriction behind the driver, more with the fairly large portion of unsupported sheet metal behind the driver that can resonate.


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> He's talking about opening up the hole in the sheet metal, since it's barely large enough to allow the magnet to fit through.
> 
> View attachment 310928
> 
> ...


I may print a 10” adapter this weekend and see what it looks like. I really don’t think it will fit. I’ll try it tho. I’m going to open up the holes anyways. My experience with airflow in different things leads me to believe that the way half the sub vents are blocked, that it may be causing an airflow disturbance and that may make them sound funny like they do. Cant hurt to try. And just for experimentation, I’m going to do one side and not the other, then play some music while swapping back and forth to see if it helped.


----------



## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> I may print a 10” adapter this weekend and see what it looks like. I really don’t think it will fit. I’ll try it tho. I’m going to open up the holes anyways.


Ya, open up the holes to the limit your adapter mounting base will allow, and then try printing a 10" adapter which uses the same mounting base dimensions your 8" ones use.

Is your 3D printer large enough to print an adapter this sized?

If you get the 10" adapter to work .... let me know how much $$ for a set LOL! I'd love to get the sealed 12" box out of my trunk and reclaim the space


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KFXGUY said:


> I may print a 10” adapter this weekend and see what it looks like. I really don’t think it will fit. I’ll try it tho. I’m going to open up the holes anyways. My experience with airflow in different things leads me to believe that the way half the sub vents are blocked, that it may be causing an airflow disturbance and that may make them sound funny like they do. Cant hurt to try. And just for experimentation, I’m going to do one side and not the other, then play some music while swapping back and forth to see if it helped.


If you're convinced it will make a difference, it will... Actual measurements (mic and REW) before and after would be ideal.


----------



## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I don't think the baffle/rear deck it stout enough either.


----------



## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Theslaking said:


> I don't think the baffle/rear deck it stout enough either.


Yo....let's get him to cut the holes before we talk start about bracing. 
Too soon bro. Too soon


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Ya, open up the holes to the limit your adapter mounting base will allow, and then try printing a 10" adapter which uses the same mounting base dimensions your 8" ones use.
> 
> Is your 3D printer large enough to print an adapter this sized?
> 
> If you get the 10" adapter to work .... let me know how much $$ for a set LOL! I'd love to get the sealed 12" box out of my trunk and reclaim the space


I think my printer is big enough. I’ll have to lay it out in cura and see if it’ll fit. I print the adapters in two parts, half a circle. They epoxy and bolt together


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> I think my printer is big enough. I’ll have to lay it out in cura and see if it’ll fit. I print the adapters in two parts, half a circle. They epoxy and bolt together


You don't need a ten inch hole in the deck. Depending on how the baskets are made you might be able to get away with an 8 inch hole. 
Especially with the added hight of the adapters. 
A sub with neo magnets would be pretty cool too.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> You don't need a ten inch hole in the deck. Depending on how the baskets are made you might be able to get away with an 8 inch hole.
> Especially with the added hight of the adapters.
> A sub with neo magnets would be pretty cool too.


The issue is going to be depth. With the factory adapters, there's a depth of about 2 5/8" before making contact with the fuel tank. Some folks add a 1" spacer on top of the factory mounting adapters, to get 3 5/8" mounting depth; but in this case, KFXGUY can just print his adapters 1" taller ... although with 10" drivers, interference with the rear window now comes into play.

Here are what the factory mounts look like for the stock 6.5" subs ... very similar to what he has printed for his 8". The picture is a bit deceiving, as the rear of the mounts are a lot closer to the rear window then it seems in the pic.










Then there's this cover which goes over the top (I added CCF as a decoupler to the bottom of mine)










And here's what it's like when put back together


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Stoopalini said:


> The issue is going to be depth. With the factory adapters, there's a depth of about 2 5/8" before making contact with the fuel tank. Some folks add a 1" spacer on top of the factory mounting adapters, to get 3 5/8" mounting depth; but in this case, KFXGUY can just print his adapters 1" taller ... although with 10" drivers, interference with the rear window now comes into play.
> 
> Here are what the factory mounts look like for the stock 6.5" subs ... very similar to what he has printed for his 8". The picture is a bit deceiving, as the rear of the mounts are a lot closer to the rear window then it seems in the pic.
> 
> ...


Shallow mount subs are very compact


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Shallow mount subs are very compact


Well what would be a good shallow mount sub for this purpose?

I wont be able to start a print till probably tomorrow evening, I'm printing something I started last night that is estimated at 1 day and 13 hours to print lol.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Grinder said:


> *If you're convinced it will make a difference*, it will... Actual measurements (mic and REW) before and after would be ideal.



The reason i think it will is because the air is rushing by a big "lip" that I feel is causing turbulence which may be causing the distorted sound i'm getting at higher excursions. It also sounds better wioth the back deck cover off because I think i'm getting some cancellation going on because i didnt put foam to direct the sound out. Which I knew better but I had to get the car back together. I think i'm going to put velcro on everything to take it apart faster lolololol


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KFXGUY said:


> The reason i think it will is because the air is rushing by a big "lip" that I feel is causing turbulence which may be causing the distorted sound i'm getting at higher excursions. It also sounds better wioth the back deck cover off because I think i'm getting some cancellation going on because i didnt put foam to direct the sound out. Which I knew better but I had to get the car back together. I think i'm going to put velcro on everything to take it apart faster lolololol


Yeah, I don't like the look of that downward angled lip area either, and in your shoes I would have done/would do what I could to remove it, for fear it would affect performance. Whatever affect the lip might actually have, and whether it's the cause of the distorted sound, are mostly conjecture at this point. Short of measurement, and given our inherent biases and the nature of psychoacoustics, we may never really know.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Maybe the rear deck cover is rattling, and that's what you are hearing? Mine rattled pretty badly until I put closed cell foam on the entire underside, and that was without any speakers in the rear deck at all. It was rattling due to the sealed 12" sub I have in the trunk.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Oh, and check your 3rd brake light clips. They have a tendency to crack/break, and when they do, the 3rd brake light housing rattles really badly as well. One of mine is broken, so I used butyl rope to affix it, and keep it from rattling when it's mounted in place. 

The more you describe what's going on, the more I wonder if you are hearing stuff rattling, and mistaking it for distortion.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Maybe the rear deck cover is rattling, and that's what you are hearing? Mine rattled pretty badly until I put closed cell foam on the entire underside, and that was without any speakers in the rear deck at all. It was rattling due to the sealed 12" sub I have in the trunk.


Surprisingly its not rattling. I'll try to explain it better....

so at low volume, it sounds good, catches some really low notes, and after discovering a feature on my dsp I wasnt aware of, it now catches some higher notes. But when i turn it up, the bass almost stops being bass (lower frequencies with higher more cone movements) and starts to sound distorted and turbulent. Then when a member earlier on mentioned something *the sound being tunneled.* Then I looked at it last night and realized those lips being like that and the subs being barely able to "breathe" may be causing me issues. Airflow and sound can be tricky.....


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Oh, and check your 3rd brake light clips. They have a tendency to crack/break, and when they do, the 3rd brake light housing rattles really badly as well. One of mine is broken, so I used butyl rope to affix it, and keep it from rattling when it's mounted in place.
> 
> The more you describe what's going on, the more I wonder if you are hearing stuff rattling, and mistaking it for distortion.


the brake light.... the clips have anti rattle foam and so does the rest of it. There's no rattling..oddly...


edit..... does it with the back deck cover and brake light off too... forgot to mention that...


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> the brake light.... the clips have anti rattle foam and so does the rest of it. There's no rattling..oddly...
> 
> 
> edit..... does it with the back deck cover and brake light off too... forgot to mention that...


Ahh, ok ... I misunderstood your previous message then ...




KFXGUY said:


> It also sounds better wioth the back deck cover off because I think i'm getting some cancellation going on because i didnt put foam to direct the sound out. Which I knew better but I had to get the car back together. I think i'm going to put velcro on everything to take it apart faster lolololol


You don't need foam to direct sub frequencies out. It takes a lot more than that rear deck cover to stop them.

Foam is good for door speakers (ie: mids and highs), but not needed for subs and mid-bass.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Ahh, ok ... I misunderstood your previous message then ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I feel like theres some cancellation going on in there, the hole is smaller than the woofer and the woofer isnt sealed to the underside of the deck....maybe I'm just over thinking it as i usually do.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

I'm gonna have alot of fun (anxiety!) when i'm cutting on the deck with a plasma cutting RIGHT OVER A GAS TANK!. lol. I planned on putting a big sheet of aluminum over the top of the tank and some rubber floor tiles...... sketchy!


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

The woofer should be sealed to the mount you printed, and the mount should be sealed to the rear deck metal. So long as the backwave is separated from the front wave, you won't get cancellations. 

I would put soaking wet bath towels on top of the fuel tank cover.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> The woofer should be sealed to the mount you printed, and the mount should be sealed to the rear deck metal. So long as the backwave is separated from the front wave, you won't get cancellations.
> 
> *I would put soaking wet bath towels on top of the fuel tank cover.*


thats an excellent idea.....I was over thinking it again!

The sub is sealed to the mount and the mount is sealed to the deck.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Or they meant to just throw in the towel?


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> thats an excellent idea.....I was over thinking it again!
> 
> The sub is sealed to the mount and the mount is sealed to the deck.


If you have a welding blanket, that wouldn't be a bad idea as well.

If the subs are sealed to the mount and the mount is sealed to the deck, then you aren't getting cancellations from the backwave. Neither the deck cover, nor the hole size in the deck, would impact this.



Holmz said:


> Or they meant to just throw in the towel?


No way! I really want him to succeed, as it means I could follow suit and do it to my GTO  ... so long as he agrees to print me some mounts too 

Actually, if he succeeds, I'm sure there are plenty of guys in the LS1GTO community who would love to follow suit. I could see a kit being marketed, with a template for the plasma cutting, and then the mounts provided to bolt up 10" subs. Guys with this car have tried all sorts of things to get good sub-bass into it, and there's no real good options on the market besides dropping an enclosure into the trunk .. but then you lose the use of the trunk. There was a company who made fiberglass enclosures for the rear seat side panels, but the R&D and manufacturing of them was too costly for the demand side. These cars were only made from 2004 - 2006, and many of them aren't even on the road anymore.

I'm a musician myself, and with the sub in my trunk, I can't even fit my guitar case in there with it. I have to load my gear in the back seat when I need to transport my gear in the GTO


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

This will give an idea as to what I'm talking about ... a picture is worth how many words?


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> If you have a welding blanket, that wouldn't be a bad idea as well.
> 
> If the subs are sealed to the mount and the mount is sealed to the deck, then you aren't getting cancellations from the backwave. Neither the deck cover, nor the hole size in the deck, would impact this.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you joined in this thread. You know the struggles with this car. So you get it. 

I'm a member at ls1gto btw. 
Honestly, I'd rather figure out the 8" subs that work best in here because I know its going to be too much for the average guy to cut (if he even would cut his car) the holes to make them fit. I'm struggling with the idea of cutting it myself, but at this point I bent it and buggered it all up now anyways so I might as well cut the holes out nicely at this point.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

and btw, I'm not trying to blow all my $$ on car audio, I need bigger injectors, e85 sensor and a bigger turbo, rear axles and stubs...o and some more drag radials.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

3 in depth on this dayton.








Home


Dayton Audio LS10-44 10" Low Profile Subwoofer Dual 4 OhmDayton Audio's shallow subwoofers let you put more bass into less space! The new LS10-44 Low Profile Subwoofer from Dayton Audio provides over 10 mm of controlled excursion, for bass that hits hard and goes deep -- even in places ordinary...




www.parts-express.com




3in deep on this Pioneer








Pioneer TS-Z10LS4


Z Series shallow-mount 10" 4-ohm subwoofer




www.crutchfield.com




Much more expensive Rockford, but also 3in deep and 50% more xmax




__





Power 10" T1 Slim Single 1-Ohm Subwoofer | Rockford Fosgate ®


The Power T1S1-10 is a slimline 10" subwoofer designed for spaces where traditional sized woofers will not fit. Features a single 1-ohm voice coil for simplified wiring configurations.




rockfordfosgate.com





I would suggest the top 2 because of the more narrow motor structure that would be easier to fit in a smaller opening without having to cut the entire deck.


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## jheat2500 (Mar 1, 2021)

Cover the glass well before cutting! Plasma slag will pit that glass and cool instantly leaving metal fragments embedded in it permanently. Not cool.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> I feel like theres some cancellation going on in there, the hole is smaller than the woofer and the woofer isnt sealed to the underside of the deck....maybe I'm just over thinking it as i usually do.


Sub frequencies are omni directional. The reason we seal the mid to the door card is for the higher frequencies. 
Above about 200hz. Any lower and it starts. 
Think about how much material is in between a normal trunk install and the listener's ears. 
All you need to do is separate the front from the back waves. 
The reason the subs sound good at low volumes is because they are well within their limits. 
In an ib situation those limits are lowered. 
That is primarily why bigger subs work so well. 
They move less for the same amount of spl. 
Bigger subs man. 
You can print the adapters with a slight forward facing angle. Help with fitting.


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## Old'sCool (May 16, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> ...So just physically speaking they will all sound the same.
> Except for the kicker comp. That might be the worst sub kicker has ever sold...


I agree with this. I can't believe they allowed the Comps out the door. My buddy kept whining about no bass in his Ram 1500, and when I saw he had two Comps, I told him he'd be better off with one JL than FOUR Comps. He swapped in a pair of JL's cheapest subs and couldn't believe the difference.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Old'sCool said:


> I agree with this. I can't believe they allowed the Comps out the door. My buddy kept whining about no bass in his Ram 1500, and when I saw he had two Comps, I told him he'd be better off with one JL than FOUR Comps. He swapped in a pair of JL's cheapest subs and couldn't believe the difference.


Ya...it's crazy. They have a certain sound to them and back in 2012 2013 that sound was all the way to the L7s. Or maybe the L5s. It was an exaggerated distortion almost. You could hear a 15 I had ported in this huge box in the trunk of a Taurus from miles away. 
My dog Bella would be waiting on me at the door 5 mins before my wife would hear me. Miss her 😢 
This guy need 10 in the deck though huh man. 
Tell hin they will fit so we can get him to cut his deck to make sure.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Stoopalini said:


> This will give an idea as to what I'm talking about ... a picture is worth how many words?
> …


picture = 30 dB(Word)


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Holmz said:


> picture = 30 dB(Word)


Wouldn't that mean a picture is worth 90db?


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

jheat2500 said:


> Cover the glass well before cutting! Plasma slag will pit that glass and cool instantly leaving metal fragments embedded in it permanently. Not cool.


Good point. Same goes for grinding/metal-cutting "sparks" and weld spatter. To prevent permanent damage, always protect any glass/glazing that may be within range of all such sparks or spatter.


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## LimpCroissaint (May 18, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> 3 in depth on this dayton.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That Dayton is sweeeet! And perfect for similar situations.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Wouldn't that mean a picture is worth 90db?


Maybe…
How much is 90dB?


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

LimpCroissaint said:


> That Dayton is sweeeet! And perfect for similar situations.


Seems like the qts is a little low for free air though.


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## LimpCroissaint (May 18, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> Seems like the qts is a little low for free air though.


Possibly. The FR graph sure looks nice on it though!


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> Seems like the qts is a little low for free air though.


It will be fine with some EQ work


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> It will be fine with some EQ work


Lol he's heard that before man. 3 threads. For real. 
How he ended up with the dsp. 
It'll probably work better this time around though. 
With all the work he is putting in I would build a shallow box beneath the deck and throw 2 jl tw10s in there. 
I mean he has a printer. With the right design bass should be no problem for him really bow that I'm thinking about what can printed....hexibass.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

3d printed 10 inch sub box. Regular size but.....
Think this....2 6inch subs....t-line enclosure. Hanging from the rear deck. Subs and port firing through the deck. 2 subs on one side port on the other. 
Problem solved man. 
**** infinite baffle


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)




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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Lol he's heard that before man. 3 threads. For real.
> How he ended up with the dsp.
> It'll probably work better this time around though.
> With all the work he is putting in I would build a shallow box beneath the deck and throw 2 jl tw10s in there.
> I mean he has a printer. With the right design bass should be no problem for him really bow that I'm thinking about what can printed....hexibass.


have you looked at the pictures of what’s below the deck?

there ls no way anything can fit under there.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Is there anything important between the back seat and that metal wall at the front of the trunk?


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

ckirocz28 said:


> Is there anything important between the back seat and that metal wall at the front of the trunk?


Ya a gas tank


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Double post


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Double post


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

ckirocz28 said:


> Is there anything important between the back seat and that metal wall at the front of the trunk?


He has enough room for thr sub magnet. That's all the depth you need.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> 3d printed 10 inch sub box. Regular size but.....
> Think this....2 6inch subs....t-line enclosure. Hanging from the rear deck. Subs and port firing through the deck. 2 subs on one side port on the other.
> Problem solved man.
> **** infinite baffle


I absolutely love IB. It's just not nearly enough cone area.
Ib needs cone area. If you don't have cone area, it atleast needs a SS filter where the knee of a sealed box rolloff would be. But you don't get the small amount of box boost at the knee like you would in an actual enclosure.
I would take an IB over sealed config 9/10 times though if I have room for the cone area. You can't reasonably get any soft of output down at 18hz any other way. (Reasonably meaning without a massive 8cf box lol)


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> I absolutely love IB. It's just not nearly enough cone area.
> Ib needs cone area. If you don't have cone area, it atleast needs a SS filter where the knee of a sealed box rolloff would be. But you don't get the small amount of box boost at the knee like you would in an actual enclosure.
> I would take an IB over sealed config 9/10 times though if I have room for the cone area. You can't reasonably get any soft of output down at 18hz any other way. (Reasonably meaning without a massive 8cf box lol)


I've been telling him that for 3 threads now. I get it.
Thats what I'm saying though. He doesn't have cone area. But he does have a printer. 
Since he is breaking out the plasma cutter.....
He could print a box the exact shape of the entire back deck. 
If he was willing to cut it out. Lol.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

I didn’t get to work on the car yet. I had an emergency transmission job to take care of yesterday. Delivering the vehicle today so now I can get back to my car. It’s been patiently waiting on me lol


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> I didn’t get to work on the car yet. I had an emergency transmission job to take care of yesterday. Delivering the vehicle today so now I can get back to my car. It’s been patiently waiting on me lol


What do you think about printing a ported enclosure for 2 6.5 inch cerwin Vegas? 
You could hang it from the back the deck.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> What do you think about printing a ported enclosure for 2 6.5 inch cerwin Vegas?
> You could hang it from the back the deck.


I thought I needed bigger speakers?
Doesn’t have room anyways


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Ya a gas tank


What kind of a**hole puts a gas tank there?


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

ckirocz28 said:


> What kind of a**hole puts a gas tank there?


They had to to comply with our stupid safety certifications. Besides, at least it’s not the 3rd Gen camaro I had where it was so poorly designed that you couldn’t fit full length headers without them dragging the ground...especially if you lowered it and not have room for a decent dial exhaust that doesn’t drag the ground and rattle on everything. I guess there’s trade offs. This car has plenty of room for headers and exhaust. I think the speaker placement is still superior to my camaro except the fact that having a hatch makes the bass really easy to hit hard.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> I thought I needed bigger speakers?
> Doesn’t have room anyways


Displacement or higher order enclosures. I've said it a few times now. If you were creative and were okay with some snip snip on the rear deck it would be no problem to fit a nicely made box back there


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> I thought I needed bigger speakers?
> Doesn’t have room anyways


For infinite baffle to work ya. But man...let's get creative here.
You can print a box that allows for every bit of space to be utilized. You're not using your printer right. Adapters....phhhhhhh.....boxes. 


Picassotheimpaler said:


> Displacement or higher order enclosures. I've said it a few times now. If you were creative and were okay with some snip snip on the rear deck it would be no problem to fit a nicely made box back there


A very nice box. 2 of these cerwin Vega 6.5 will pound.
And dig low with the correct box design.
Snippy snippy decky decky


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

You're just not comprehending the space. There's about 2.5" to work with, and that's at the far end. So 1.5" or so at the shallow end. In order to use it though, you'd have to cut out the 2 braces (which are the mounts for the fuel tank brace), as well as get rid of the fuel tank strap unions on top of the tank. 

In this picture, you can see where I trimmer the top of the fuel tank strap union, just to get my 6.5" tang band woofers to fit .. and those have a mounting depth of less than 4". So with the factory adapter in place, and a 3.9" mounting depth driver, I still had to cut the top of the strap for it to fit. The factory adapter is about 2" or so ... which means it is less than 2" from the deck to the fuel tank strap.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Stoopalini said:


> You're just not comprehending the space. There's about 2.5" to work with, and that's at the far end. So 1.5" or so at the shallow end. In order to use it though, you'd have to cut out the 2 braces (which are the mounts for the fuel tank brace), as well as get rid of the fuel tank strap unions on top of the tank.
> 
> In this picture, you can see where I trimmer the top of the fuel tank strap union, just to get my 6.5" tang band woofers to fit .. and those have a mounting depth of less than 4". So with the factory adapter in place, and a 3.9" mounting depth driver, I still had to cut the top of the strap for it to fit. The factory adapter is about 2" or so ... which means it is less than 2" from the deck to the fuel tank strap.
> 
> View attachment 311112


Plenty of space. Remove that 2x4 and the bracing. He has a 3d printer and a plasma cutter. 
If he can't get a box in there with that....
Then he deserves neither.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Plenty of space. Remove that 2x4 and the bracing. He has a 3d printer and a plasma cutter.
> If he can't get a box in there with that....
> Then he deserves neither.


Man you funny! I’m not doing all that. I’m not that committed to cutting my car up like that.

I’m sitting in the car right now listening to it. I cut one hole bigger to compare if the woofer needs more breathing room. It seemed to clean that one up so I’m gonna cut the other side. I just don’t think these subs are suited to what I’m trying to do. I got it sounding better but it’s not there yet.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Man you funny! I’m not doing all that. I’m not that committed to cutting my car up like that.
> 
> I’m sitting in the car right now listening to it. I cut one hole bigger to compare if the woofer needs more breathing room. It seemed to clean that one up so I’m gonna cut the other side. I just don’t think these subs are suited to what I’m trying to do. I got it sounding better but it’s not there yet.


10s it is then.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> Man you funny! I’m not doing all that. I’m not that committed to cutting my car up like that.
> 
> I’m sitting in the car right now listening to it. I cut one hole bigger to compare if the woofer needs more breathing room. It seemed to clean that one up so I’m gonna cut the other side. I just don’t think these subs are suited to what I’m trying to do. I got it sounding better but it’s not there yet.


Completely agree with you. There’s no way a box would fit in there, no matter what someone says. Anyone who has one of these cars completely understands.

Even if you could cut enough away, and somehow modify the tank mounting brackets to accommodate, it would make no sense to do it. This car was only produced for 3 years, with a total count of 40k cars produced over those 3 years. Many have been wrecked by now as well. It’s getting more and more rare to see them on the road. There’s no way I would start cutting it up that much.

Opening up the existing holes a bit more? Sure, easy enough. Completely removing the bracing for the fuel tank brace? Umm, no thanks.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Stoopalini said:


> Completely agree with you. There’s no way a box would fit in there, no matter what someone says. Anyone who has one of these cars completely understands.
> 
> Even if you could cut enough away, and somehow modify the tank mounting brackets to accommodate, it would make no sense to do it. This car was only produced for 3 years, with a total count of 40k cars produced over those 3 years. Many have been wrecked by now as well. It’s getting more and more rare to see them on the road. There’s no way I would start cutting it up that much.
> 
> Opening up the existing holes a bit more? Sure, easy enough. Completely removing the bracing for the fuel tank brace? Umm, no thanks.


Soooo you're saying there is not .7 cf of airspace? 
That's all the 6.5 inch w3s need ported. 
With the printer it's a cinch.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Soooo you're saying there is not .7 cf of airspace?
> That's all the 6.5 inch w3s need ported.
> With the printer it's a cinch.


LOL .... Well, the space is about 36”long, 6” wide and 3”tall, and that’s only if you removed the fuel tank bracing. soooo ... no, there’s not even 0.7 cu/ft of space. 36x6x3 is about 0.38 cu/ft.

But that’s besides the point. It’s not practical at all to try and put an enclosure there. If you looked in the trunk of one of these cars, I think you’d immediately understand.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> LOL .... Well, the space is about 36”long, 6” wide and 3”tall, and that’s only if you removed the fuel tank bracing. soooo ... no, there’s not even 0.7 cu/ft of space. 36x6x3 is about 0.38 cu/ft.
> 
> But that’s besides the point. It’s not practical at all to try and put an enclosure there. If you looked in the trunk of one of these cars, I think you’d immediately understand.


I figured he would have by now with the pics we’ve posted.

I’ve decided what I’m going to do. I’m going to order two cerwin Vega 8’s and try those. If they sound like crap, I’m going to send them back. Then I’ll put my L5 kicker back in until I build a custom fiberglass box to fit in a corner of the trunk. I’ll put the w6 tang bands back in the rear deck, on the rear channels with the silverflutes and cross them over at about 80hz on the bottom and I’ll figure out later on what to cross them over up top. I’m not cutting my car all up just for a little more bass. It’s just not that serious. I’ve had fun messing around with infinite baffle, but I just think these speakers I have now aren’t suited to what I want. I’ll let you guys know what the Vegas sound like. I’m ordering them shortly.


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## cathul (Jul 2, 2018)

Can you build a 4th order enclosure and route the port to the rear deck opening? I mean, yeah, you have a 3D printer which you could use to print the external port of the enclosure. This way all the bass from the 4th order enclosure would be routed into the cars interior.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

cathul said:


> Can you build a 4th order enclosure and route the port to the rear deck opening? I mean, yeah, you have a 3D printer which you could use to print the external port of the enclosure. This way all the bass from the 4th order enclosure would be routed into the cars interior.


I don’t have any cad software yet to design anything. And I just started printing a few weeks ago so that’s beyond my capability at the moment


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> Then I’ll put my L5 kicker back in until I build a custom fiberglass box to fit in a corner of the trunk. I’ll put the w6 tang bands back in the rear deck, on the rear channels with the silverflutes and cross them over at about 80hz on the bottom and I’ll figure out later on what to cross them over up top.


I actually tried this with my Tang Band 6.5" subs, and had SQ issues with it. Here's a thread I created back then, to work through it.

4-way Active Setup Using 80PRS in a 2005 GTO 

In the end, I removed the rear deck speakers, and then replaced my front stage and treated the whole car with CLD, MLV and CCF. I'd say the sound I have now is the best the car has ever been ... probably, the best system I've ever had in any car. If you put your sub box back in the car, definitely try tuning it without anything in the rear deck. 










I would still love to reclaim the trunk space, but I think it would take a couple of 10"s in the rear deck in an IB config, or the rear side panels with custom enclosures.



KFXGUY said:


> I’m not cutting my car all up just for a little more bass. It’s just not that serious. I’ve had fun messing around with infinite baffle, but I just think these speakers I have now aren’t suited to what I want. I’ll let you guys know what the Vegas sound like. I’m ordering them shortly.


Are you still planning to try adapters for 10" drivers in the rear deck?


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> I actually tried this with my Tang Band 6.5" subs, and had SQ issues with it. Here's a thread I created back then, to work through it.
> 
> 4-way Active Setup Using 80PRS in a 2005 GTO
> 
> ...


After cutting what i did yesterday, I just dont think 10" is doable. I don't have a 10" sub laying around to check to be sure. I just text a buddy of mine to see if he has something laying around. If not i'n gonna jump online and maybe buy the cheapest thing I can find. 

I ordered 1 cerwin vega to see how it sounds. I'm bout to jump on parts express and see if i can find anything else worth trying in 8". I'm open to reasonable suggestions....Trying to keep the price $300 and under per pair....


V82DV2 - 750W Max (250W RMS) 8" Vega Series Dual 2 Ohm Car Subwoofer


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

$110 each for these: TS-SW2502S4 - 10" Shallow-Mount Subwoofer with 1,200 Watts Max. Power 

3.125" mounting depth.

How big were you able to open up the deck?


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Looks like that one may be discontinued ... replaced by this one? TS-A2500LS4 - 10" - 1200w Max Power, Single 4W Voice Coil, Rubber Surround - Shallow-mount Subwoofer 

This one is 3.375" mounting depth, but looks like the back tapers more aggressively.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

This would definitely fit, although Boss is junk ... 









Home


BOSS D10F Phantom 10" Flat SubwooferSpecifications: • Power handling: 400 watts RMS/800 watts peak • Cone material: Poly injection • Voice coil diameter: 2" • Efficiency (1W/1m): 87 dB • Frequency response: 35 Hz - 2.2 kHz • Impedance: 4 ohms • Mounting depth: 3-3/8".




www.parts-express.com


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

1.5" mounting depth! Wow ... although the center of the woofer extends forward, so interference with the grill would need to be considered.









Home


Peerless GBS-250F38CP01-04 10" Paper Cone Woofer 4 OhmThe Peerless GBS-250F38CP01-04 10" 4 ohm subwoofer provides a very slim profile that is capable of large excursion. A unique treater paper dome helps to provide room to move the motor assembly and spider further forward without sacrificing...




www.parts-express.com


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

This sub doesnt look too bad except the fs is higher than i'd like.....









Home


DS18 SLC8S Select 8" Paper Cone Subwoofer 4 OhmFor car audio enthusiasts on a budget, DS18's SLC8S 8" paper cone subwoofer driver is a great way to add some powerful low end to your system without breaking the bank. An oversized treated foam surround is mechanically stitched to the fiberglass...




www.parts-express.com


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> This would definitely fit, although Boss is junk ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the fs on that is 50hz which is kinda high for a 10"?

I'm trying to just find an 8" that works first. That would be my easiest route. If I can't find something that sounds good (i'm not worried about overall spl...) then I'll move to plan b


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Ya, Boss is junk ... I wouldn't recommend it, no matter what the specs showed.


This one has 3.5" mounting depth, with a decent taper ... and free air Fs of 34Hz: 
HS102D - HED DVC Shallow Subwoofer (10", 2 Ohm),Black 

How much were you able to open up the deck and still have the adapter screw in to the factory holes?


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Ya, Boss is junk ... I wouldn't recommend it, no matter what the specs showed.
> 
> 
> This one has 3.5" mounting depth, with a decent taper ... and free air Fs of 34Hz:
> ...


I didnt measure but its around 1/2" smaller than the adapter, so about 7.5" if I had to guess. i did print adapter that are 1/4" larger in diameter and thats the biggest I could go and use the factory holes. I slotted the holes on the adapter to get them to line up. The problem at thi spoint with using the factory holes is a can barely get something to the screw to tighten them. Right now i have to use a 2.5" phillips 1/4" drive bit with a ratcheting 1/4 combination wrench on it and do it by feel. its not fun. I may put some nutserts in the adapter and fasten it from the bottom.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Ya, For 10" adapters, I think the mounting tabs would need to be on the inside of the adapter, not the outside. So you could screw them into place by extending a screwdriver inside the adapter, then put the driver in afterward. 

With this design, the driver would need to taper enough to fit through the deck hole, or be shallow enough to avoid it; which is why I was asking how large that hole ended up being. 

The peerless driver (with the 1.5" mounting depth) might work here. The specs state the total driver height is 2.9", but the mounting depth is 1.5"; so the center of the cone must extend 1.4" beyond the mating surface. So if you made the adapter say, 1.75" tall. and put the mounting tabs on the inside, it would provide 0.25" of clearance on the bottom, and should still allow for enough clearance to the grill.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Ya, For 10" adapters, I think the mounting tabs would need to be on the inside of the adapter, not the outside. So you could screw them into place by extending a screwdriver inside the adapter, then put the driver in afterward.
> 
> With this design, the driver would need to taper enough to fit through the deck hole, or be shallow enough to avoid it; which is why I was asking how large that hole ended up being.
> 
> The peerless driver (with the 1.5" mounting depth) might work here. The specs state the total driver height is 2.9", but the mounting depth is 1.5"; so the center of the cone must extend 1.4" beyond the mating surface. So if you made the adapter say, 1.75" tall. and put the mounting tabs on the inside, it would provide 0.25" of clearance on the bottom, and should still allow for enough clearance to the grill.



yea i just dont think I have enough real estate to fit a 10"....I want it to work just as much as you because that will make driver selection much easier....but I'm pretty certain I dont have the room. My buddy didnt have any 10" to try.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

I found the Vegas cheaper with sonic electronics. For $60 more I could have bought two so I cancelled my order with the other eBay seller (I gave them an option to match Sonics price but I guess they didn’t want to) and ordered the pair from sonic. I’m just gonna throw those in and what it is is what it is. I’m getting tired of not driving my car because the interior is out of it.


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## Old'sCool (May 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> Man you funny! I’m not doing all that. I’m not that committed to cutting my car up like that.
> 
> I’m sitting in the car right now listening to it. I cut one hole bigger to compare if the woofer needs more breathing room. It seemed to clean that one up so I’m gonna cut the other side. I just don’t think these subs are suited to what I’m trying to do. I got it sounding better but it’s not there yet.


That rear deck also provides torsional support and is integral to the structural integrity of your vehicle. Add a gas tank wedged beneath, and it would be a fool's move to nix any more metal than absolutely needed.

What about building a baffle ON TOP of the rear deck, and mounting two 10s or 12s with the magnets face-up?

Then you could print a contoured grill frame to place over the subs, and add matching grill cloth.

Just throwing ideas out there. As nice as the rear deck looks, it could still be done with a "humpy" grill that follows those curves, only allows clearance for the sub magnets and frames.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Old'sCool said:


> That rear deck also provides torsional support and is integral to the structural integrity of your vehicle. Add a gas tank wedged beneath, and it would be a fool's move to nix any more metal than absolutely needed.
> 
> What about building a baffle ON TOP of the rear deck, and mounting two 10s or 12s with the magnets face-up?
> 
> ...


That sounds like too much work....lol

seriously, I'm not sure at this point t hat i want to put that much effort into it. my plan of action at the moment is i have the vega's on the way. If they sound better than what I have, good...I'll keep them. If they don't, I'll send em back or put them in a couple 8" bazookas i have. I also wonder if I can fit some bazookas inside my side panels. I'm tempted to take the panels off and do some measuring. I could also break down and put boxes there and put the flutes in the rear deck for rear fill.


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## Old'sCool (May 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> That sounds like too much work....lol
> 
> seriously, I'm not sure at this point t hat i want to put that much effort into it. my plan of action at the moment is i have the vega's on the way. If they sound better than what I have, good...I'll keep them. If they don't, I'll send em back or put them in a couple 8" bazookas i have. I also wonder if I can fit some bazookas inside my side panels. I'm tempted to take the panels off and do some measuring. I could also break down and put boxes there and put the flutes in the rear deck for rear fill.


I feel your pain. I'd build some nice sealed boxes for the Vegas before I went Bazooka. Bazooka tubes are heinous.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Old'sCool said:


> I feel your pain. I'd build some nice sealed boxes for the Vegas before I went Bazooka. Bazooka tubes are heinous.


That's an option. Or I could do an isobaric in the trunk. So many options......why did I join this site??? Its costing me more money by the day...lol


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## Old'sCool (May 16, 2021)

The baffle/inverted subs would take WAY less time than many boxes, unless you're just gonna toss one in the trunk.

Also, baffle weighs less, and if you're drag racing, ounces become pounds...


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Old'sCool said:


> What about building a baffle ON TOP of the rear deck, and mounting two 10s or 12s with the magnets face-up?
> 
> Just throwing ideas out there. As nice as the rear deck looks, it could still be done with a "humpy" grill that follows those curves, only allows clearance for the sub magnets and frames.


This is a very interesting idea. Using one of the slim 10's, this may be possible under the factory deck lid cover. I could see a thin disc printed, and mounted to the deck ... just to give a flat surface for the 10" drivers to mate against. Then depending on the depth of the driver, the OEM rear deck cover may fit right over the top.

@KFXGUY Do you still have the rear deck covered removed? Can you measure the height of the hump, where the grill's are installed? This would tell us how much space there is to work with under there.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Old'sCool said:


> The baffle/inverted subs would take WAY less time than many boxes, unless you're just gonna toss one in the trunk.
> 
> Also, baffle weighs less, and if you're drag racing, ounces become pounds...


meh...I agree, moreso when I was naturally aspirated.....but as I add weight, boost is added too, to compensate. Its funny when I have people in the car, i'll hit 23-24psi vs 19-20 like when I'm by myself. But yea...I do agree.....


I often wonder if I should have just put my 4 channel on (4) 6.5 flutes and two 8" flutes and just kept the box sub to throw in when I want more bass....


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> This is a very interesting idea. Using one of the slim 10's, this may be possible under the factory deck lid cover. I could see a thin disc printed, and mounted to the deck ... just to give a flat surface for the 10" drivers to mate against. Then depending on the depth of the driver, the OEM rear deck cover may fit right over the top.
> 
> @KFXGUY Do you still have the rear deck covered removed? Can you measure the height of the hump, where the grill's are installed? This would tell us how much space there is to work with under there.


Yea the car is apart right now. I can measure it.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> Yea the car is apart right now. I can measure it.


I realized I could measure this myself, since I just have those foam pieces stuck inside the factory mounts. I just pulled one out through the trunk, and measured. 

On the tall side (closest the front of the car), it's 2 3/4" from the deck to the grill. On the short side, closest the rear of the car, it's 2". So definitely not possible to fit an inverted driver under there.

While I had the foam out, I took a few pictures to show you, since you had asked earlier. I completely mis-remembered it being 4" foam ... it is only 1" foam. I put white vinyl tape on the bottom, and the black second skin CCF on the top. This does a great job preventing the fuel pump noise from entering the cabin.


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> I realized I could measure this myself, since I just have those foam pieces stuck inside the factory mounts. I just pulled one out through the trunk, and measured.
> 
> On the tall side (closest the front of the car), it's 2 3/4" from the deck to the grill. On the short side, closest the rear of the car, it's 2". So definitely not possible to fit an inverted driver under there.
> 
> ...


What about the bass? I remember when i sound deadened the back deck and trunk, I could not hear my sub near as good...like cut the volume in less than half, and that was with the factory 6.5" in the back deck.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

The bass from my 12" sealed enclosure in the trunk sounds great, no issues. Foam will not stop sub frequencies, only higher frequencies (like those the fuel pump makes). Sound deadening the back deck and trunk should have made your bass response better, not worse. Sounds like something else was going on.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> The bass from my 12" sealed enclosure in the trunk sounds great, no issues. Foam will not stop sub frequencies, only higher frequencies (like those the fuel pump makes). Sound deadening the back deck and trunk should have made your bass response better, not worse. Sounds like something else was going on.


well if you look under the back deck, you’ll see some holes besides the speaker holes. I covered those up with deadening material. I could barely hear the bass. Popped the trunk, I could hear the sub still working and it was loud as usual. So then I cut the deadening out the holes, had my bass back. Now I only had an old L5 kicker 8 but it did enough for what I wanted.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Ya, I covered all those holes up too. Sounds like you were getting midbass from it maybe, and not sub bass? 

I have my sub crossed over at 63Hz. All my mid bass comes from the 6.5" in the doors.


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## Old'sCool (May 16, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> The bass from my 12" sealed enclosure in the trunk sounds great, no issues. Foam will not stop sub frequencies, only higher frequencies (like those the fuel pump makes). Sound deadening the back deck and trunk should have made your bass response better, not worse. Sounds like something else was going on.


Anything that stops the flow of air will impede even sub frequencies. You are hearing air move. That's how a sub makes sound.

That said, foam won't stop subwoofer frequencies nearly as bad as solid metal or plastic.

Sub frequencies are odd, in that the lowest notes' wavelengths are longer (significantly) than your average car, truck, SUV (or even short bus) interior.

A 30hz note is approximately 37.7 feet long. (Over 11 meters.) This is why they are less susceptible than treble to minor barriers like carpet and foam. Regardless, when you restrict the air entering your cabin from the trunk/subs, it will create a natural filter/reduce output, even if just slightly. When dealing with small subs, you want as much air flow as physically possible getting to your ears.


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## Old'sCool (May 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> meh...I agree, moreso when I was naturally aspirated.....but as I add weight, boost is added too, to compensate. Its funny when I have people in the car, i'll hit 23-24psi vs 19-20 like when I'm by myself. But yea...I do agree.....
> 
> 
> I often wonder if I should have just put my 4 channel on (4) 6.5 flutes and two 8" flutes and just kept the box sub to throw in when I want more bass....


I took the sub box out of my Ram SRT 10 at the drag strip. (I'm a fat man, though, so did 20lbs REALLY matter??? LMAO.)

With slicks, no tune, that heavy arse truck ran mid to high 12s all night on a nice Fall evening. While kids were blowing head gaskets on Talon TSIs and WRXes, I was back in the lane for another run. 🤣 

I miss that truck. Baddest vehicle I ever had, and I had some sick vehicles back?when I was single...


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Dude, if you're willing to buy and return a ton of 8in drivers just to see if one way do something magical that another one won't (which isn't going to happen, sorry man), why not just buy a couple shallow 10s and test for fitment? Then you will atleast know if they will fit or not. 

I dont think you realize why there are some people getting frustrated with this. You're asking for help and then disregarding any of the help given. I would imagine that's why most people have left the thread.

Cut some holes for larger drivers, or build a baffle and reverse mount them firing through the stock speaker holes which will have more than enough breathing room.


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## Old'sCool (May 16, 2021)

+1

I vote for reverse mount. Don't even need to cut the holes any larger if you only go 10".


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Please d


KFXGUY said:


> meh...I agree, moreso when I was naturally aspirated.....but as I add weight, boost is added too, to compensate. Its funny when I have people in the car, i'll hit 23-24psi vs 19-20 like when I'm by myself. But yea...I do agree.....
> 
> 
> I often wonder if I should have just put my 4 channel on (4) 6.5 flutes and two 8" flutes and just kept the box sub to throw in when I want more bass....


Wait....I thought you already tried the silver flute 8s ?
If not...then ya...try that man. 
If you like 6.5 inch in your door the 8 inch on the deck seems like the move.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Dude, if you're willing to buy and return a ton of 8in drivers just to see if one way do something magical that another one won't (which isn't going to happen, sorry man), why not just buy a couple shallow 10s and test for fitment? Then you will atleast know if they will fit or not.
> 
> I dont think you realize why there are some people getting frustrated with this. You're asking for help and then disregarding any of the help given. I would imagine that's why most people have left the thread.
> 
> Cut some holes for larger drivers, or build a baffle and reverse mount them firing through the stock speaker holes which will have more than enough breathing room.


Right.....displacement is displacement. 
If you could just throw some boost on the bass. 
Like the turbo controls the ......wait a min
...why not a ported box in the trunk.....like normal. That you remove when you want go fast....


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

I haven't looked into your car, but if you actually have a trunk, this is a silly exercise that we are doing.
Build a legit box, with a legit sub, screw your amp to the box (the ONLY time I will reccomend this), and connect the amps power on a large quick disconnect like this :
Amazon.com: Driver Recovery 2-4 Gauge Battery Quick Connect / Disconnect (2 Pack) 175 Amps Wire Harness Plug for Winch or Trailer : Automotive

You now have your cake, and you can eat it too.

This is an even better option than any of the others since you are dropping even more weight than you would by keeping 2 8in speakers in IB (no speakers are lighter than 2 speakers)


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

What about pulling that spare tire? Looks like a good amount of space.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

KFXGUY said:


> They had to to comply with our stupid safety certifications. Besides, at least it’s not the 3rd Gen camaro I had where it was so poorly designed that you couldn’t fit full length headers without them dragging the ground...especially if you lowered it and not have room for a decent dial exhaust that doesn’t drag the ground and rattle on everything. I guess there’s trade offs. This car has plenty of room for headers and exhaust. I think the speaker placement is still superior to my camaro except the fact that having a hatch makes the bass really easy to hit hard.


I'd rather have the gas tank under the car totally outside of the passenger compartment.
I feel you on the 3rd gen Camaro headers, I've got a set of shortys to put on mine when I swap the heads.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Ok. I just got home from work, I’ll run out there in a few and make a 10” cardboard circle to show you guys why. I measured the other night. It’s just not doable for the amount of cutting I’m willing to do to the car. I’ve said it in my other thread, I’m not going for max spl, earth shaking bass. I just want it louder and clearer than the stock stereo in my my 2019 Silverado. It’s louder right now but the bass isn’t as wide a range as my trucks stock stereo and I don’t even have the premium system. I really don’t think I’m asking for much. It’s just so far the drivers I’ve used just aren’t the right thing. I’m hoping the cerwin Vegas sound better than the no name subs I have now. They are “loud” enough, they just don’t have any kind of decent range to them. They really only seem to sound good around 40hz. No lower, no higher. Bare with me. I’m just looking for that perfect driver, which may or may not exist.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> Ok. I just got home from work, I’ll run out there in a few and make a 10” cardboard circle to show you guys why. I measured the other night. It’s just not doable for the amount of cutting I’m willing to do to the car. I’ve said it in my other thread, I’m not going for max spl, earth shaking bass. I just want it louder and clearer than the stock stereo in my my 2019 Silverado. It’s louder right now but the bass isn’t as wide a range as my trucks stock stereo and I don’t even have the premium system. I really don’t think I’m asking for much. It’s just so far the drivers I’ve used just aren’t the right thing. I’m hoping the cerwin Vegas sound better than the no name subs I have now. They are “loud” enough, they just don’t have any kind of decent range to them. They really only seem to sound good around 40hz. No lower, no higher. Bare with me. I’m just looking for that perfect driver, which may or may not exist.


A higher quality sub of the same size isn't going to do what you want. Higher quality subs have less distortion. This makes them seem quieter than a cheaper sub at the same SPL level.
They are all going to sound peaky at 40hz due to them not playing with any appreciable spl below that and cabin gain doing its thing. The best thing you can do is pull the 12db or whatever it is out of the response via parametric EQ try and level out the response.
Feel free to keep chasing your tail even with everyone telling you otherwise.
Use your trunk and make a removable box, or invert mount some 10s. Those are your only options if you want anything more below 40hz.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Alright. I sense some of you are getting agitated with me. Well I get it, you think I’m not listening. Truth is, if 10’s would fit, I’d do it. But I’m stuckwith 8’s. So that’s what I have to work with. None of you guys are here looking at this with me. I have pretty good fab capabilities, but I don’t want to cut my car up like that. I took some pics so you can see.
First off, this is why I don’t want a box and/or use the spare tire well. It’s being used. I have tools, air pump, cleaning supplies, extra parts, clamps, spark plug wires etc









This is my ultra small trunk. Helmet in the pic for scale.









Now here’s a 10” cardboard circle.
Please notice the curves it runs into and runs into bracing for the seat. It almost hits the back glass. I won’t have room to move the woofer up to space it. Trust me, it’s not going to fit. 8” is tight enough.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Alright. I sense some of you are getting agitated with me. Well I get it, you think I’m not listening. Truth is, if 10’s would fit, I’d do it. But I’m stuckwith 8’s. So that’s what I have to work with. None of you guys are here looking at this with me. I have pretty good fab capabilities, but I don’t want to cut my car up like that. I took some pics so you can see.
> First off, this is why I don’t want a box and/or use the spare tire well. It’s being used. I have tools, air pump, cleaning supplies, extra parts, clamps, spark plug wires etc
> 
> View attachment 311222
> ...


Looks like you have plenty of room.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> Alright. I sense some of you are getting agitated with me. Well I get it, you think I’m not listening. Truth is, if 10’s would fit, I’d do it. But I’m stuckwith 8’s. So that’s what I have to work with. None of you guys are here looking at this with me. I have pretty good fab capabilities, but I don’t want to cut my car up like that. I took some pics so you can see.
> First off, this is why I don’t want a box and/or use the spare tire well. It’s being used. I have tools, air pump, cleaning supplies, extra parts, clamps, spark plug wires etc
> 
> View attachment 311222
> ...


It looks like inverted 10s would fit fine from those pictures. And you don't have to use your spare well. You can use your trunks corner, it should be easy since you have fab skills.
I have a toyota 86, super small car with a trunk the same size. I have a 1.5cf box with a gb12 stuffed in the corner with disconnects to allow me to get it out to gain access to my spare. It's possible.










_edit_
Upon second look, your trunk is smaller than mine, maybe 70% the size. Regardless, plenty of room to fit a 12 if you wanted to


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Here’s some more pics 












I










I could put a box in here though


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> I have pretty good fab capabilities, but I don’t want to cut my car up like that.


If you invert some 10in shallow subs, you won't have to cut ANY metal. Just a baffle board and a few holes to mount it to the rear deck.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Looks like you have plenty of room.


Umm no I don’t. What you aren’t considering is the woofer would hit the back glass and my deck cover is not going to go over it. I mean maybe a hack jobber could make that fit but like I told you before, I’m not destroying my back deck over some speakers. If you were here looking at this, you’d agree unless you are ok with hacking up a vehicle and ruining it. I’m not doing it.
An inverted woofer won’t work, it will hit the back glass. Stoop already measured that. Look fellas, this is a nice car. I already feel like crap cutting the holes bigger for 8’s. I’m just not cutting it for 10’s because once I cut it and realize it’s not going to work, I can’t uncut it. It’s easy for someone hundreds of miles away to just tell you to hack your car all up, but doing it....that’s a different story.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Umm no I don’t. What you aren’t considering is the woofer would hit the back glass and my deck cover is not going to go over it. I mean maybe a hack jobber could make that fit but like I told you before, I’m not destroying my back deck over some speakers. If you were here looking at this, you’d agree unless you are ok with hacking up a vehicle and ruining it. I’m not doing it.
> An inverted woofer won’t work, it will hit the back glass. Stoop already measured that. Look fellas, this is a nice car. I already feel like crap cutting the holes bigger for 8’s. I’m just not cutting it for 10’s because once I cut it and realize it’s not going to work, I can’t uncut it. It’s easy for someone hundreds of miles away to just tell you to hack your car all up, but doing it....that’s a different story.


The opposite of cut is a weld. Duh. 
After looking at the pics of the spare tire well.....why? Spark plug wires? Just in case? All the cleaning supplies....in the car? All the time? If you want bigger bass than the silverflutes you need a box in trunk and the back deck open. 
There isn't some magical 8 out there that defies physics. 
You know how midbass drivers in your door bottom without a high-pass? Same thing in the rear deck but worse because no one makes 8 inch subwoofers designed for infinite baffle. Most likely because they would be horrible failures. Kinda like.....


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> The opposite of cut is a weld. Duh.
> After looking at the pics of the spare tire well.....why? Spark plug wires? Just in case? All the cleaning supplies....in the car? All the time? If you want bigger bass than the silverflutes you need a box in trunk and the back deck open.
> There isn't some magical 8 out there that defies physics.
> You know how midbass drivers in your door bottom without a high-pass? Same thing in the rear deck but worse because no one makes 8 inch subwoofers designed for infinite baffle. Most likely because they would be horrible failures. Kinda like.....


weld my back deck back together. Lol. Seriously? Smh.

i have a turbo car. I’ve burnt a plug wire or two in the past few years. Makes it pretty convenient when I’m out of town or on the road to just swap a wire if I burn it. I also have charge pipe clamps. V bands. I was in another state and broke a clamp. Let’s see...carry stuff I might have an issue with that would possibly disable the car....or put speakers in it and stead. Hmmm. That’s a hard decision to make. Lol. Smh.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> weld my back deck back together. Lol. Seriously? Smh.
> 
> i have a turbo car. I’ve burnt a plug wire or two in the past few years. Makes it pretty convenient when I’m out of town or on the road to just swap a wire if I burn it. I also have charge pipe clamps. V bands. I was in another state and broke a clamp. Let’s see...carry stuff I might have an issue with that would possibly disable the car....or put speakers in it and stead. Hmmm. That’s a hard decision to make. Lol. Smh.


They make things called bags. They also make some just for tools. Some just for books too. 
Makes it easy to move and to find stuff. And seems to save some space. 
Mine also seems to like to sit beside my sub box. In a car I drive uber in. 2...3 hours away. Chevy cruze. Also turbo charged. 
Mostly I just see a bunch of rags taking up space where a sub could be. With a nice bag of rags....and the tools you might need to to tighten that clamp....they fit in bags too. 
There are multiple solutions for your car. You just don't want them. 
Is this really Koontz in a more sophisticated form?


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## RyuTsuiSen (Jan 26, 2018)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> They make things called bags. They also make some just for tools. Some just for books too.
> Makes it easy to move and to find stuff. And seems to save some space.
> Mine also seems to like to sit beside my sub box. In a car I drive uber in. 2...3 hours away. Chevy cruze. Also turbo charged.
> Mostly I just see a bunch of rags taking up space where a sub could be. With a nice bag of rags....and the tools you might need to to tighten that clamp....they fit in bags too.
> ...


No death/black metal or chest pounding bass mentioned yet so I doubt it on Kountz



On a different note, been following along and have you thought about using some cardboard to "put together" a .5 or 1ft cubic box that could tuck into the corner of your trunk. Best case scenario, you have an area you can fit a box for even a full size 10 or 12 and worst case you lost a bit of time (which a LOT has been spent in this pursuit and thread) 

Worst case scenario, it doesn't work and you lost slme time and maybe a piece of cardboard or 2. 

Play around with measurements in a box calculator, think which directions would work well for you and manage depth. If you can fiberglass a box then you open a TON of space and flexibility.



Those 175 amp connectors before are pretty cool too lol


Good luck!

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

RyuTsuiSen said:


> No death/black metal or chest pounding bass mentioned yet so I doubt it on Kountz
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's about to tell you that card board won't work for a sub box.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

RyuTsuiSen said:


> No death/black metal or chest pounding bass mentioned yet so I doubt it on Kountz
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea I can fiberglass. I can do carbon fiber too. I can make a box from cardboard and fiberglass over it and then the last layer I can use carbon. I know that well enough. 
the dude above would have me change my whole life around just to shoehorn some subs in my car. Lol. Not. He does give me some good laughs will his bullshenanagins tho.


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## RyuTsuiSen (Jan 26, 2018)

I figured youd be able to honestly. Weigh your options and do you.

Enjoy man!

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> They make things called bags. They also make some just for tools. Some just for books too.
> Makes it easy to move and to find stuff. And seems to save some space.
> Mine also seems to like to sit beside my sub box. In a car I drive uber in. 2...3 hours away. Chevy cruze. Also turbo charged.
> Mostly I just see a bunch of rags taking up space where a sub could be. With a nice bag of rags....and the tools you might need to to tighten that clamp....they fit in bags too.
> ...


What the heck is a Chevy Cruze? I think what I mean by a turbo car and what you mean are quite a bit different. I mean the honda civics they sell nowadays are turbocharged. My turbo is probably about as big as your engine. Lol. With that kind of pressure an hp going on, it’s a good idea to keep A few things with you that auto parts stores don’t keep in stock. Please stop trying to convince me to rearrange my whole lifestyle because you want me to put bigger subs in or make slot more bass than I’m after. We went other this in the past. I don’t want all that.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> What the heck is a Chevy Cruze? I think what I mean by a turbo car and what you mean are quite a bit different. I mean the honda civics they sell nowadays are turbocharged. My turbo is probably about as big as your engine. Lol. With that kind of pressure an hp going on, it’s a good idea to keep A few things with you that auto parts stores don’t keep in stock. Please stop trying to convince me to rearrange my whole lifestyle because you want me to put bigger subs in or make slot more bass than I’m after. We went other this in the past. I don’t want all that.


Sir....my chevy cruze does a 10 second .25 mile. 
1.4 liter. I believe my intake might be able to suck your life up.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Sir....my chevy cruze does a 10 minute .25 mile.
> 1.4 liter. I believe my intake might be able to suck your life up.


I bet it does man. I bet it does.

I got something your intake can.....o wait....nevermind. lolololol


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

What a long thread! It’s really very simple.
You need bigger subs or at least subs designed for IB or that have specs better for IB.
Even then going under 30hz with small subs isn’t likely.

Have you mentioned if you are using a dsp? You have phase issues is why you have bass with some then others you turn it up and it gets no louder

I guarantee you have phase issues. Even guysthat are full active using dsp like I do have phase issues. If you aren’t doing anything to address this nothing is going to help. There is absolutely zero chance you can slap subs in a non active system and have nophase issues. Impossible


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Selkec said:


> What a long thread! It’s really very simple.
> You need bigger subs or at least subs designed for IB or that have specs better for IB.
> Even then going under 30hz with small subs isn’t likely.
> 
> ...


Funny you should ask about a dsp. I'm shopping for one right now. It's almost impossible to find what I'm looking for under $500. I do have a dsp on the subs only, called a dsp-LP made by dayton audio.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

KFXGUY said:


> Funny you should ask about a dsp. I'm shopping for one right now. It's almost impossible to find what I'm looking for under $500. I do have a dsp on the subs only, called a dsp-LP made by dayton audio.


`
Go big or go home…

You might be better off with smaller bandpass, ported or a sealed?
But not being able to carry things isn the boot of the Monaro is also a worry.


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## Hermes (Sep 14, 2021)

yeah... never go IB with small subs. like, EVER


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Holmz said:


> `
> Go big or go home…
> 
> You might be better off with smaller bandpass, ported or a sealed?
> But not being able to carry things isn the boot of the Monaro is also a worry.


boot?


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Hermes said:


> yeah... never go IB with small subs. like, EVER


Why do auto manufacturers do it all the time?


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Here's the sub you need  





IB- 24







stereointegrity.com




Easy peasey. This should move enough air  Okay, I'm not expecting you to actually jump and buy one, but eventually, I will. I'm already running an 18" sub with two passive radiator 15"s and it does pretty well. But I'm kind of bored with it, and would like more  Especially D E E E P bass ! ...like in the single digits category. I think doing 140+ db's at 8 hz would be really fun


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

I mean it dont alawys sound like a million bucks, but they do get decent sound out of them. I work for a major auto manufacturer and alot of our vehicles have a single sub in the rear deck infiite baffle and it sounds pretty good.


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## waldojeffershead (Jun 6, 2010)

EQ is set right? Cut and peaks, taking into account driver impedance and response curves? Maybe add a second pair of woofers. Amp have good dampening?


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KFXGUY said:


> boot?


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> Funny you should ask about a dsp. I'm shopping for one right now. It's almost impossible to find what I'm looking for under $500. I do have a dsp on the subs only, called a dsp-LP made by dayton audio.


You can get a Helix Mini-DSP for around $450 shipped









HELIX DSP MINI MK2 6-CHANNEL, THE LATEST DSP UNIT, DIGITAL-IN, ACO, BRAND NEW | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for HELIX DSP MINI MK2 6-CHANNEL, THE LATEST DSP UNIT, DIGITAL-IN, ACO, BRAND NEW at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com





Next time I refresh my system, I will likely replace my amp with a Helix M FOUR DSP unit, or similar (~$800 or so), so I can offload the processing out of my head unit, onto the DSP, while keeping my trunk space still to just one amp/component.

That would then allow me to replace my head unit (single DIN Pioneer 80PRS) with something more modern ... like a double DIN touch-screen NAV, backup cam, etc ... Without having to find one which has equivalent SQ features as the 80PRS does. 



Holmz said:


> `You might be better off with smaller bandpass, ported or a sealed?
> But not being able to carry things isn the boot of the Monaro is also a worry.


Trunk space is most certainly limited ... I ended up opting for a sealed 12" enclosure for mine, and I just deal with the limited space. But I can appreciate the goal of locating subs inside the cabin somewhere (rear deck, or rear seat side panels).

Here is what I have in mine. The sub is self contained, and on quick connects. So it's really quick and easy to take out when needed.










Then I can still place the tank cover in place too, and hide everything. 












KFXGUY said:


> boot?


That's Aussie/Brit speak for "Trunk". Holmz is from Australia.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Here's the sub you need
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just ordered two! I'm gonna cut my trunk lid for one and put the other in the roof. that ought to do it! Or maybe i should wait for that chevy cruz dude and see what he thinks I should do....I bet he will tell me something like put it in the hood of the car and move the engine to the rear of the car or something....lololol


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> You can get a Helix Mini-DSP for around $450 shipped
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well I was almost sold on that helix....however, I want 6 inputs (front, rear, sub) and 6 or more outputs.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> Well I was almost sold on that helix....however, I want 6 inputs (front, rear, sub) and 6 or more outputs.


Ya, I get it .... Man, I really wish you were closer to me. I'd love for you to hear my car with just the front Hertz components (6.5" door and 1" dash tweets) and trunk sub. It sounds phenomenal without any additional speakers in the rear.


----------



## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> I just ordered two! I'm gonna cut my trunk lid for one and put the other in the roof. that ought to do it! Or maybe i should wait for that chevy cruz dude and see what he thinks I should do....I bet he will tell me something like put it in the hood of the car and move the engine to the rear of the car or something....lololol


You need to cut the spare tire well out. Put a carbon fiber baffle in to offset the weight of the sub. 
And you only needed 1 so ordering two was somewhat foolish I would say. 
Could've bought a bigger turbo....or another air filter or whatever you petrol dummies do.


----------



## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Well I was almost sold on that helix....however, I want 6 inputs (front, rear, sub) and 6 or more outputs.


You will not find anything with six inputs. The only thing is a jl audio fix 86. Six in. 8 out. Not a processor. Line driver....kinda. 
Just mount the freaking knob. I know you gotta blank that your not using for fogight switches or something.....


----------



## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Helix DSP.3 has 6 inputs with 8 outputs
Helix Pro MK2 has 8 inputs with 10 outputs
Helix DSP Ultra also has 8 inputs with 12 outputs

Actually, of the offerings from Helix, only the mini is limited to 4 inputs.


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> You will not find anything with six inputs. The only thing is a jl audio fix 86. Six in. 8 out. Not a processor. Line driver....kinda.
> Just mount the freaking knob. I know you gotta blank that your not using for fogight switches or something.....


There are plenty out there with 6 inputs. Just more costly than I’m ok with.


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> You need to cut the spare tire well out. Put a carbon fiber baffle in to offset the weight of the sub.
> And you only needed 1 so ordering two was somewhat foolish I would say.
> Could've bought a bigger turbo....or another air filter or whatever you petrol dummies do.


I decided I would think like you, no need for a bigger turbo. I’m taking the engine out and putting a 32” sub in the engine compartment. So I won’t be needing the turbo anymore. I hope that the sub frequencies can propel me down the road. And I may remove the seats too, I’ll put more subs there also. Who needs seats when you can have subs there instead?


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

What do you guys think of the audio control dm608?


----------



## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> I bet it does man. I bet it does.


Maybe the new cooling system added some serious power??



Thomasluke7899 said:


> Shortly after i bought a new Chevy Cruze. Worst buy Ive ever made. Fast forward 5 Years and 50,000 miles i had to basically rebuild the cooling system and everything but the tranny and actual block. Just the turbo and pcv system was 3500 bucks. and the shop owner is a pretty good friend.


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Maybe the new cooling system added some serious power??


pahahaha! good catch! I bet it runs 10's....10 minutes in the 1/4 maybe!


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Or the audiocontrol dqdx, requires no computer to make changes


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Or the audiocontrol dqdx, requires no computer to make changes


At that price though why not a twk? Dude...just mount a freaking knob. 
Has a awesome blue light around it. Will make the red look better.


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> At that price though why not a twk? Dude...just mount a freaking knob.
> Has a awesome blue light around it. Will make the red look better.



Yea that will match real nice. Everything I have illuminates green. I should just switch it all to blue? I'm anal about stuff matching. I’m not putting a GD bass knob. Period.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

My Rockford Fosgate 12" sub setup came with a bass knob, and I wasn't too sure about it either. The contour of it ended up fitting nicely under the Mode/Set buttons, so I used some 3M molding double-sided tape to affix it there. I actually use it a lot more than I thought I would.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Stoopalini said:


> My Rockford Fosgate 12" sub setup came with a bass knob, and I wasn't too sure about it either. The contour of it ended up fitting nicely under the Mode/Set buttons, so I used some 3M molding double-sided tape to affix it there. I actually use it a lot more than I thought I would.
> 
> View attachment 311287


Exactly.... this guy act likes his dash is a work of art. 
God forbid someone gets in and doesn't know know it's a cs*X. *
the jl rux allows you to switch between pre sets and multiple different configurations of the housing. You saw the benefits and like you said....you use it way more than you ever thought you would.


----------



## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Yea that will match real nice. Everything I have illuminates green. I should just switch it all to blue? I'm anal about stuff matching. I’m not putting a GD bass knob. Period.
> 
> View attachment 311286


The middle of your usb connections are the same color blue.


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> The middle of your usb connections are the same color blue.


That. doesn’t. Light. Up. Smh. Whatever dude. You do you. I’ll do me. It’s worked for me for 45 years.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

You don’t need rear inputs because you don’t need rear speakers? If you can’t get the Ib correct don’t even attempt rears. They should be rear fill. And if ya have to ask what’s that, you definitely don’t need rears.

not trying to sound like an ass.

why do people think they need rears. I also did when I was new to this. But if someone is in yoir back seat and can’t hear the front speakers they don’t have ears


----------



## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

KFXGUY said:


> What do you guys think of the audio control dm608?


No 

because you can get a helix dsp.3 for less and it’s in another league

All you have to do is make a WTB post In classifieds and you will get messages to buy them. 

I can get a brand new dsp.3 for 500$


----------



## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

KFXGUY said:


> Yea that will match real nice. Everything I have illuminates green. I should just switch it all to blue? I'm anal about stuff matching. I’m not putting a GD bass knob. Period.
> 
> View attachment 311286


But the air fresheners don’t quite match

😜


----------



## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> That. doesn’t. Light. Up. Smh. Whatever dude. You do you. I’ll do me. It’s worked for me for 45 years.


Ah...should of just said you were old


----------



## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Selkec said:


> No
> 
> because you can get a helix dsp.3 for less and it’s in another league
> 
> ...


He doesn't deserve a helix. Let him turn those little knobs on that audiocontrol till he knows what he's doing.


----------



## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

the nex1500 can probably handle this system by itself. It’s got decent xover/ta capabilities.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

KFXGUY said:


> boot?


As you drive a Holden Monaro, I used their term for the trunk.
They also use wind screen instead of windshield.

In the US one might say “It goes fast”, and in the Au they would say it goes like, “The showers of $hit”.


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

SQ_Bronco said:


> the nex1500 can probably handle this system by itself. It’s got decent xover/ta capabilities.


It does, but I can’t hone in on limiting upper and lower frequencies. I do have passive crossovers in the doors on the front flutes. The rear ones are turned down, only for a little more rear fill and additional mid bass.


----------



## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> It does, but I can’t hone in on limiting upper and lower frequencies. I do have passive crossovers in the doors on the front flutes. The rear ones are turned down, only for a little more rear fill and additional mid bass.


Ok..a real suggestion here man....
Switch over to network. Use the active xovers up front. For the back use a set of y adapters on the midbass rcas. That way you send the same signal to the front as the back. 
Throw the passives or grab an inductor from parts express which is just a simple 6db low pass. 
They would go inline on the positive wire. Like any other xover. 
You could even order a few. Say from 200 hertz to 1000. 
The argument for rear speakers is legit but...it's only 2 channel audio. 
The rear info is the same as the front. In your case here anyway. 
An actual ported box in the boot mate and you have a very nice tunable system that shouldn't be lacking in any real way. 
The only improvements after that would be an actual dsp. 
Maybe better speakers but only after the dsp has really maximized what you have. 
Oh and one these 








Rockford Fosgate PLC-U


Universal Punch Level Control wired remote




www.crutchfield.com


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Selkec said:


> …
> why do people think they need rears. I also did when I was new to this. But if someone is in yoir back seat and can’t hear the front speakers they don’t have ears


All my back seat passengers have ears, they don’t need to work though..
(A ponytail probably serves a similar function.)


----------



## ChuckO (Nov 23, 2009)

Tactile Transducers / aka 'Bass Shakers' are your friend. If you can mount them under your front seats, to the seat frame is best, but to the floor is also ok, you will find the missing bottom octave that you are looking for.
These have gone out of fashion I suppose, and or most people never try them, but in a mobile environment these make a whole lot of difference. When people have decent mid bass, they are looking for that last bit on the bottom that you can 'feel'. This is where the tactile transducers come in, and they do it much more effectively than a subwoofer and are cheaper to boot. Bonus, saves your hearing as you can keep volume levels in safe zone. This is important if you want to enjoy music for a lifetime. 





__





parts express tactile transducer - Google Search






www.google.com





This is based on personal experience and many installs over the last 20 years.


----------



## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Twk in the classifieds....450. 








FS: JL Audio TWK88, FIX82, Vibe LiteBox Amps, Pioneer...


NIB = New In Box. Never installed, never turned on, never used. Used = installed and used. Shipped = to continental USA If you want more pictures of anything, please message me. Given the quantity for sale, I only took one picture of each. Local pickup possible in the Atlanta area. Amplifiers...




www.diymobileaudio.com


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

I'm starting to second guess and regret my decisions. The more I think about it, the more i realize the silverflutes almost do it for me on their own. So with me realizing that, i keep going back to silverflute 8's on madisound and I keep getting close to ordering them. Then i keep thinking about the Peerless SLS 8" which should be a better choice than the flutes in the back deck, put those and the rear 6.5" flutes on the rear channels of my 4 channel, cross the 6.5's at 5500hz, put a resistor on the 6.5's to lower the power to them, and cross the peerless at 2000 hz and then throw a sub back in the trunk on the mono amp. ugh. I should Have done this from the get go. I'd be done.


----------



## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

How about swapping out the flutes for a pair of the new Dayton epiques?


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

SQ_Bronco said:


> How about swapping out the flutes for a pair of the new Dayton epiques?


The flutes in the rear are in metal sidepanels in the quarter panel in a freeair situation. Probably wouldnt go well with those


----------



## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> The flutes in the rear are in metal sidepanels in the quarter panel in a freeair situation. Probably wouldnt go well with those


Yo the dayton epiques would really be enough for you. 
No need for 8s. Just 4 of those in rear. Done. Run them off the sub channel and the front active. 
With all your silly stipulations and childish grudges against knobs...what's that about? One hit you in mouth?
Anyways the daytons have more throw than any sub suited to ib in that size range.


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Yo the dayton epiques would really be enough for you.
> No need for 8s. Just 4 of those in rear. Done. Run them off the sub channel and the front active.
> With all your silly stipulations and childish grudges against knobs...what's that about? One hit you in mouth?
> Anyways the daytons have more throw than any sub suited to ib in that size range.


NO.


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Yo the dayton epiques would really be enough for you.
> No need for 8s. Just 4 of those in rear. Done. Run them off the sub channel and the front active.
> With all your silly stipulations and childish grudges against knobs...what's that about? One hit you in mouth?
> Anyways the daytons have more throw than any sub suited to ib in that size range.


Why you so hard headed? I dont want all that bass. I just want clean bass. thats all. I dont need a bunch of subs. Like I said, i'm almost happy with 4 6.5's.....what makes you think i want that much more like you keep blurting out? I'm not a kid anymore. I'll be 45 years old in december, I've had (4) 15's, (4) 12's...10's etc. I worked at several audio shops and installed for over a decade. I've had head throbbing, chest compressing bass in many systems...why can't you simply understand its not my desire for that anymore. I already stated numerous times i want it to sound a little better than the stock stereo in my my 2019 silverado. That should not be hard to do and i just feel like to BEAT that goal, I should not have to have a boxed sub....my truck doesnt and its got cheesy stock speakers......My goals arent that high. I should not have to spend thousands to get there. I appreciate all the suggestions but i want to keep it simple and you keep beating a dead horse. I dont want a dang bass knob. Do I need to explain that any further? Have you not decided things FOR YOURSELF in life or do you let other people make up your mind for you? I choose to decide things for myself. I'm always open to opinions or suggestions, but if i already told you I didnt want something several times already...do you really think you are going to change my mind by asking me if I got hit in the mouth with a bass knob?

You wanna know why....like really want to know why? Ever since I installed car audio I've always felt like a bass knob was a cheesy add on...kinda like a big wing spoiler on a rice mobile. My radio has a sub control. I SOLD MY LAST RADIO because I was having to use a stupid bass knob because that android junk didnt have a sub control and I PURPOSLY found and bought another head unit with sub control and removed the bass knob. So why in the heck would I go back to that when its not what i prefer? Because YOU say so? LMAO.


----------



## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

@KFXGUY ... Dude, you just need to ignore him. There's no need to explain your goals. Take the suggestions which align, and just ignore the ones which don't. He's obviously trying to get a rise out of you, and it's working. 

BTW: I've got a couple of years on you LOL! I kind of went the other way though. My GTO was a road course track car for many years. No interior, NT-01 slicks, brake cooling ducts, laminova oil/coolat heat exchanger, etc, etc ... I placed 1st in my class 2 years in a row, set a track record in Houston, etc ... Then when I retired it from the road course circuit, I decided to make it a quiet, smooth, daily driver with a decent stereo. I suppose our priorities change as we get older ... there's no need to convince anyone else though.


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> @KFXGUY ... Dude, you just need to ignore him. There's no need to explain your goals. Take the suggestions which align, and just ignore the ones which don't. He's obviously trying to get a rise out of you, and it's working.
> 
> BTW: I've got a couple of years on you LOL! I kind of went the other way though. My GTO was a road course track car for many years. No interior, NT-01 slicks, brake cooling ducts, laminova oil/coolat heat exchanger, etc, etc ... I placed 1st in my class 2 years in a row, set a track record in Houston, etc ... Then when I retired it from the road course circuit, I decided to make it a quiet, smooth, daily driver with a decent stereo. I suppose our priorities change as we get older ... there's no need to convince anyone else though.


yea you are right. I was started to get agitated. Lol.


----------



## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Why you so hard headed? I dont want all that bass. I just want clean bass. thats all. I dont need a bunch of subs. Like I said, i'm almost happy with 4 6.5's.....what makes you think i want that much more like you keep blurting out? I'm not a kid anymore. I'll be 45 years old in december, I've had (4) 15's, (4) 12's...10's etc. I worked at several audio shops and installed for over a decade. I've had head throbbing, chest compressing bass in many systems...why can't you simply understand its not my desire for that anymore. I already stated numerous times i want it to sound a little better than the stock stereo in my my 2019 silverado. That should not be hard to do and i just feel like to BEAT that goal, I should not have to have a boxed sub....my truck doesnt and its got cheesy stock speakers......My goals arent that high. I should not have to spend thousands to get there. I appreciate all the suggestions but i want to keep it simple and you keep beating a dead horse. I dont want a dang bass knob. Do I need to explain that any further? Have you not decided things FOR YOURSELF in life or do you let other people make up your mind for you? I choose to decide things for myself. I'm always open to opinions or suggestions, but if i already told you I didnt want something several times already...do you really think you are going to change my mind by asking me if I got hit in the mouth with a bass knob?
> 
> You wanna know why....like really want to know why? Ever since I installed car audio I've always felt like a bass knob was a cheesy add on...kinda like a big wing spoiler on a rice mobile. My radio has a sub control. I SOLD MY LAST RADIO because I was having to use a stupid bass knob because that android junk didnt have a sub control and I PURPOSLY found and bought another head unit with sub control and removed the bass knob. So why in the heck would I go back to that when its not what i prefer? Because YOU say so? LMAO.


The dayton are just a better version of the silverflutes you are using now. With 14 mm of amazing xmax. They are not subs. 
Didn't know the knob thing cut so deep. Lol. 
You want more bass than 2 8 inch subs ib can cleanly provide. But you don't want a bunch of subs. 
You are acting like a female that just got to new restaurant but doesn't want to wait 30 mins.


----------



## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> Why you so hard headed? I dont want all that bass. I just want clean bass. thats all. I dont need a bunch of subs. Like I said, i'm almost happy with 4 6.5's.....what makes you think i want that much more like you keep blurting out? I'm not a kid anymore. I'll be 45 years old in december, I've had (4) 15's, (4) 12's...10's etc. I worked at several audio shops and installed for over a decade. I've had head throbbing, chest compressing bass in many systems...why can't you simply understand its not my desire for that anymore. I already stated numerous times i want it to sound a little better than the stock stereo in my my 2019 silverado. That should not be hard to do and i just feel like to BEAT that goal, I should not have to have a boxed sub....my truck doesnt and its got cheesy stock speakers......My goals arent that high. I should not have to spend thousands to get there. I appreciate all the suggestions but i want to keep it simple and you keep beating a dead horse. I dont want a dang bass knob. Do I need to explain that any further? Have you not decided things FOR YOURSELF in life or do you let other people make up your mind for you? I choose to decide things for myself. I'm always open to opinions or suggestions, but if i already told you I didnt want something several times already...do you really think you are going to change my mind by asking me if I got hit in the mouth with a bass knob?
> 
> You wanna know why....like really want to know why? Ever since I installed car audio I've always felt like a bass knob was a cheesy add on...kinda like a big wing spoiler on a rice mobile. My radio has a sub control. I SOLD MY LAST RADIO because I was having to use a stupid bass knob because that android junk didnt have a sub control and I PURPOSLY found and bought another head unit with sub control and removed the bass knob. So why in the heck would I go back to that when its not what i prefer? Because YOU say so? LMAO.


I dont mean to sound like a dick, but have you heard anyone's well built SQ system other than your own?
Have you been to any comps, heard any demo cars, or anything of the like for true SQ cars? Not 4 15s or 4 12s or whatever you had previously.
It seems to me like you truely don't know what you are actually looking for.

Think of it like this, you have a nice car from the sounds of it. Lots of horsepower. Do you use all of that while you're driving? No, you don't, you only use it sometimes when merging into traffic or playing around. You don't use it to its full potential until you need to, and then it makes things like merging into traffic easier. But CAN you drive around like an ass hat all the time at 6k rpm, roasting tires? Yes.

Now let's take this to sound. You say you don't need all these subwoofers cause you don't need all that much bass. Just like having 800hp in DD car, if you have more cone area, you aren't going to use it all of the time. You use that extra cone area to cause less distortion, and play the lower octave. Giving you clean, low, and smooth bass. Now CAN you devote all that cone area to a more efficient region like 40hz and drive around sounding like an ass hat with your one note wonder car that everyone can hear coming? Just like using that 800hp through town, yes you can.
Do you see what I'm saying? If it's tuned well, it only compliments the music, it isn't a chest beater. But it REQUIRES lots of air to be moved in one form or another. How you utilize the ability to move all that air is up to you. Do you use it to make the neighbors house shake? Or do you use it for clean low bass?

As soon as you eq down that peak in the subbass that you have now, you will see what we mean about not having enough cone area. Right now there is an abnormally efficient region in that 40hz area that is caused by cabin shape, and a horn loading effect from the rear deck. As soon as you chop that out and have a smooth bass response, you are going to be bottoming out your subs before you can get anywhere CLOSE to how loud they were playing at 40hz alone before.
And that's when what we are telling you about having more cone area in your mids than your subs is really going to become apparent.

Anyway, all we can do is try and help out. Maybe 2 8s are enough for you after tuning them. But you aren't going to really know without measuring and chopping the massive peak out of the sub response, pushing it to xmax, and hearing what you are left with.


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> I dont mean to sound like a dick, but have you heard anyone's well built SQ system other than your own?
> Have you been to any comps, heard any demo cars, or anything of the like for true SQ cars? Not 4 15s or 4 12s or whatever you had previously.
> It seems to me like you truely don't know what you are actually looking for.
> 
> ...



I have chopped out that 40hz region. I chopped up to 17.4db out of it. It sounds like crap higher and lower than that with the subs I have now. It’s more complicated than that, some songs sound fantastic, some I can’t hear some bass notes that I know are there. I’m brainstorming right now. I’m considering building enclosures for my side panels and putting subs in there. I have a few ideas, and I’ll get there. 
I haven’t heard anyone else’s car. None of my friends car much about audio anyone. Faded out pretty much. Most of my buddies are into fast cars. I’m not really into the audio either, nothing like I used to be, but I’ve become interested here lately on just getting a decent stereo in my hot rod.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

KFXGUY said:


> I have chopped out that 40hz region. I chopped up to 17.4db out of it. It sounds like crap higher and lower than that with the subs I have now. It’s more complicated than that, some songs sound fantastic, some I can’t hear some bass notes that I know are there. I’m brainstorming right now. I’m considering building enclosures for my side panels and putting subs in there. I have a few ideas, and I’ll get there.
> I haven’t heard anyone else’s car. None of my friends car much about audio anyone. Faded out pretty much. Most of my buddies are into fast cars. I’m not really into the audio either, nothing like I used to be, but I’ve become interested here lately on just getting a decent stereo in my hot rod.


to get an idea… Maybe make a sealed box out of old scrap wood and set it next to where it’’ll be on a door.

If it sounds bad, then don’t waste time making a door box.
if it sounds good then you’ll be armed with that fact too.


----------



## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Holmz said:


> to get an idea… Maybe make a sealed box out of old scrap wood and set it next to where it’’ll be on a door.
> 
> If it sounds bad, then don’t waste time making a door box.
> if it sounds good then you’ll be armed with that fact too.



Not the doors. The rear side panels. But yea. I’d do only one at first.


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

KFXGUY said:


> Not the doors. The rear side panels. But yea. I’d do only one at first.


Just do as he says, whip a quarter card out and put a box there it will let you know how it will behave in minutes rather than ‘building something

or make a manifold over the tank for the rear shelf to breathe through all four driver holes present and attach a pair of twelves to it in the boot, the sq will be through the roof and the front stage will have better sq without the rears in the mix


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

So many wrongs in some of these responses, it's sad. I'll keep it short & simple... still using dual 8" in the rear deck. Output.. not an issue. Response... not an issue. A mic & RTA will definitely help you to understand where you're going wrong, but it also should be understood that driver parameters is another problem whether picking the wrong ones, or what's not accurate enough to be trusted. That would require a DATS though. This isn't just your subs... this includes throughout as I view your list. 

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


----------



## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Bayboy said:


> So many wrongs in some of these responses, it's sad. I'll keep it short & simple... still using dual 8" in the rear deck. Output.. not an issue. Response... not an issue. A mic & RTA will definitely help you to understand where you're going wrong, but it also should be understood that driver parameters is another problem whether picking the wrong ones, or what's not accurate enough to be trusted. That would require a DATS though. This isn't just your subs... this includes throughout as I view your list.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


This guys name might as well be ye.... cause you can't tell him ****


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Bayboy said:


> So many wrongs …


But in his defence he has a Monaro.]




Bayboy said:


> … it's sad.


Noice Trumpism!


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Holmz said:


> But in his defence he has a Monaro.]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What are you talking about... Trumpism??? 

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Bayboy said:


> What are you talking about... Trumpism???
> …


----------



## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Bayboy said:


> What are you talking about... Trumpism???
> 
> Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


Too much time in ot.


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

This thread is about car audio so I fail to see the relevancy in that reply & video. If you have some sort of political bone to pick, I suggest finding those who it applies to. 

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Bayboy said:


> This thread is about car audio so I fail to see the relevancy in that reply & video. If you have some sort of political bone to pick, I suggest finding those who it applies to.


No bone to pick… I just thought that the “Sad” part was funny.
(I read it, it seemed t apply to the myriad of responses?)

Anyhow you probably have good ideas for his car… you usually offer a decent perspective, so don’t get vexed by my humour or lack thereof. 

I am too lazy to even pick a bone (even with) myself, at the moment.


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## DoubleCrown (Jun 26, 2019)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> That's what ime talking about. Let's cut some **** up now man. Make some real progress on this thing so you can feel that 2 chains. Motherfucking right.....


TWO CHEHANES.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Holmz said:


> No bone to pick… I just thought that the “Sad” part was funny.
> (I read it, it seemed t apply to the myriad of responses?)
> 
> Anyhow you probably have good ideas for his car… you usually offer a decent perspective, so don’t get vexed by my humour or lack thereof.
> ...


Perhaps it is funny to some, but I tend to stay away from politics & religion as either can certainly trigger unwanted things. Wasn't sure if you forgot what thread you were in or throwing out bait. 


Anyways... let me eat my breakfast to give me time to go over how I need to put my thoughts into words so I can make some sense of what I'm trying to convey. I also should scan through the thread to see if any driver changes were made from what I last viewed. 

Monaro... is the car? Taken into consideration. 

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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Bayboy said:


> Monaro... is the car? Taken into consideration.


His car is a 2004 Pontiac GTO; which is a rebranded Holden Monaro.

It has 6.5" holes in the rear deck, which had factory subs installed. The primary issue with the car is the fuel tank is in the trunk, right up against the rear seat and under the rear deck. So there's no room to put anything with depth into the rear deck.

I've a 2005 GTO, which is the same layout when it comes to the audio system, and here is what the trunk looks like. You can see the fuel tank taking up a large portion of the space, and how it prevents anything of substance from being installed in the rear deck.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

So from my perspective (which won't be worth 2 cents to some), there's numerous things wrong in the setup if it still stands as I saw earlier in the thread. 

Pioneer 1500... good decks IMO. They have the same network capabilities as others except for the PRS series. EQ & xover are decent if you don't handicap them.... will get to that in the driver section. 

Whispers.. always intriguing, but not without issues in the midrange. Not a big deal here since you're running passive between those and the door drivers. That's if the passives are doing things close to right. 

Silver Flutes...I see these as a problem for many. Yes, they're very inexpensive, good throw, and perhaps impressive midrange. Still, midbass... not something I would choose especially in this scenario. With no natural bump or rise in the lower portion of bandwidth needed in a car door, this means they will need some extra EQ for proper tonality. It may look good on paper, but the reality is more than likely they aren't doing the subs any favors. Many say low Q doesn't matter when crossing above Fs and they are correct to a point, but that's a much different suggestion vs the response that is beneficial when you are DSP or EQ limited as in a fairly bare bones system. That's been my experience over the years any way.... 

The subs (GBW801 correct?)... we've discussed this before and my big issues are

1. We don't know the true parameters of the Blaupunkts. I would like to believe they are what is claimed but Blau isn't what they used to be. 

2. If the specs are correct, I still take issue with the Qts... not the Fs. That is correct... the Fs is actually fine for IB, but the Qts and other parameters leave a bit to be desired for an 8" that undoubtedly will not be as influenced by trunk size as much larger subs would. I know questions will come about the Fs... I welcome them, but let's move on in case questions or debates are stagnant. 

The alternate OB subs used... those were on the other end of the spectrum for what would be rather ideal. The extremely high Q is obviously for OB... not necessarily beneficial to a vehicle with the usual transfer function we know cars to have. The Fs, if correct, combined with that super high Q, added to a vehicle's acoustics... that wouldn't have been my choice either. The designed peak is an obvious need for OB but not worth the tradeoffs in a trunk baffle. 

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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Bayboy said:


> So from my perspective (which won't be worth 2 cents to some), there's numerous things wrong in the setup if it still stands as I saw earlier in the thread.
> 
> Pioneer 1500... good decks IMO. They have the same network capabilities as others except for the PRS series. EQ & xover are decent if you don't handicap them.... will get to that in the driver section.
> 
> ...


You make some good points. 

The whispers...well I ended up getting those to sound good with lots of playing with the eq. Then the dayton AMT tweets were overbearing, so i put a resistor on them to tone them down. I really deadened the doors and rear panels quite well and I think most people would be surprised how good the flutes sound, and i know I've read where they dont have any or much bass, but thats not true with mine. Like I said before, I almost dont need subs...but cruising down the highway with the windows down....i can't hear as much bass. 
The blaupunkts are out of the picture and I've given up on the audiophile drivers. They just arent what I'm looking for. I Ordered some cerwin vega's that should be here today. I'f they dont do what i want in the back deck then I'll build some boxes and put them in the side panels. Or I'll put a box back in the trunk. we will see.


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> This guys name might as well be ye.... cause you can't tell him ****


Dude that’s not helpful.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

KFXGUY said:


> You make some good points.
> 
> The whispers...well I ended up getting those to sound good with lots of playing with the eq. Then the dayton AMT tweets were overbearing, so i put a resistor on them to tone them down. I really deadened the doors and rear panels quite well and I think most people would be surprised how good the flutes sound, and i know I've read where they dont have any or much bass, but thats not true with mine. Like I said before, I almost dont need subs...but cruising down the highway with the windows down....i can't hear as much bass.
> The blaupunkts are out of the picture and I've given up on the audiophile drivers. They just arent what I'm looking for. I Ordered some cerwin vega's that should be here today. I'f they dont do what i want in the back deck then I'll build some boxes and put them in the side panels. Or I'll put a box back in the trunk. we will see.


Which ones did you order? I take it you're going off of my previous experience with them, if you got the ones I have? It will be interesting to see your results compared to mine. 

I do wish you would slow down a bit in your purchasing gear, but I'm not one to bash. We all operate differently. Keep me posted. 




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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

SQ_Bronco said:


> Dude that’s not helpful.


Nothing is with guy man. I've been through 3 threads. All this long. 
I'm kinda invested in it myself. I would like to aquire his car for 2 days. Do the install I want to do. Then give it back.
With 4 bass knobs. One for each seat. 
But you're not wrong.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

What I will add since no one has yet to question the Fs and before I forget my words, I do run my little 8"subs without a subsonic filter.  Yes, they're wide open on the bottom end and actually sound more natural than the Ultimax that were tried both ways. Possibly handle it better as well. The reason here is very fundamental. Fs is NOT a brick wall spec. IE.. many drivers can play below Fs but since the sub starts to fall near where most vehicles have picked up already, that slope off isn't as audible as most would think. In fact, it can and did wind up sounding pretty linear, similar to what an "ideal" sealed sub sounds like when dovetailed with the car. Ideal gets touched on later. Of course this depends on the Qts & Fs relationship in use... too high, a nasty peak, and too steep of a drop-off isn't going to be helped much by the car. I can hear "but EQ..". Don't bother. 

Let's go in the other direction.... where most will say what looks great on paper or maybe even modeling. A low Fs...20's... 30's whatever you dream to be "perfect". Oh yes... and a buttery smooth looking Q on paper.. above .4 and up to .7 most will probably agree, yes? Except we are forgetting again... that low end gain of the car... combined with the shallower slope of the lower Q sub plus that low Fs dreamed of... now tell me what will you have? SLOP! That's what you'll have... sloppy booty bottom end that's sounds impressive at first until you realize the notes aren't as definitive. The slop of the bottom might even blur the sub's upper performance.

Sounds familiar doesn't it... same problems with some door midbass, perhaps? Had that a few times myself. "But EQ...". Yesss, now insert more phase issues than needed into the mix by trying to overcome with EQ. But here's what's even funnier.... that lower Fs & beautiful Q will probably need a subsonic filter more than the mid 40's Fs and higher Q that's only added a slight boost in the "musical" bass range but still digs deeper than thought. I tested that with some Dynamix II. Don't judge me. 

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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> I have chopped out that 40hz region. I chopped up to 17.4db out of it. It sounds like crap higher and lower than that with the subs I have now. It’s more complicated than that, some songs sound fantastic, some I can’t hear some bass notes that I know are there. I’m brainstorming right now. I’m considering building enclosures for my side panels and putting subs in there. I have a few ideas, and I’ll get there.
> I haven’t heard anyone else’s car. None of my friends car much about audio anyone. Faded out pretty much. Most of my buddies are into fast cars. I’m not really into the audio either, nothing like I used to be, but I’ve become interested here lately on just getting a decent stereo in my hot rod.


I had only listened to my own car before a few months ago as well. I tried with a single 10 in a sealed before and was lacking that depth that I was looking for from a home setup (although I do like a good amount of bass capability). But the only cars I could sit in were guys from sound of tri-state, all of which had 24in ported subs, or walls of 12s. Basically all spl guys, and I had zero interest in what they had going on.
All the while, I was lurking on here without an account and read on here about how much people loved their IB setups with big drivers and how smooth and "transparent" the bass was. So I thought I would take a shot in the dark and try it out. I picked up a 13in w6v2 and made an IB wall. Sounded bloated at first until I hit it with some eq, and wow. The top end of the midbass transition was just as smooth and about the same volume, but now I had some low end authority down into the mid 20s while still being able to jam out when I wanted.
Can you make some 8s work? Yes absolutely. But if you want a rising bass response as most people do in a car, and want it above fairly low listening levels, I don't believe it's possible to move enough air with 2 8s.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

SQ_Bronco said:


> Dude that’s not helpful.


The only help he's lended in this thread is adding more useless posts.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Bayboy said:


> Which ones did you order? I take it you're going off of my previous experience with them, if you got the ones I have? It will be interesting to see your results compared to mine.
> 
> I do wish you would slow down a bit in your purchasing gear, but I'm not one to bash. We all operate differently. Keep me posted.
> 
> ...


I ordered the 2ohm vegas...like you have.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

KFXGUY said:


> I ordered the 2ohm vegas...like you have.


 

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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Can you make some 8s work? Yes absolutely. But if you want a rising bass response as most people do in a car, and want it above fairly low listening levels, I don't believe it's possible to move enough air with 2 8s.


I don't find this to be true. At least in my experience... maybe others. I've played with enough IB setups to come to the realization that many aren't really optimized. You really shouldn't have to EQ a proper IB setup into submission much more than a proper sealed setup. A good sealed will dip down just as low and a proper IB should be as musical with decent overshoot, but the difference and the targeted advantage of IB is of course.. better efficiency without the weight and room taken up with an enclosure. 


That said... here's some interesting bits of yore. Notice the 12 was only spec'd with a 40hz Fs albeit the 8 & 10 were high 30's? This wasn't uncommon back then though xmax wasn't as high as current subs. Lots of efficiency lost in unnecessary low Fs these days I bet. 

Notice #10 in this thread









A good IB 8 inch woofer


I see in the search that a lot talk about image dynamics for IB. Name me some good 8" that would work well IB on a rear deck? Also what is the most important specs you folks look at to say this would be a good IB driver?




www.diymobileaudio.com






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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Bayboy said:


> I don't find this to be true. At least in my experience... maybe others. I've played with enough IB setups to come to the realization that many aren't really optimized. You really shouldn't have to EQ a proper IB setup into submission much more than a proper sealed setup. A good sealed will dip down just as low and a proper IB should be as musical with decent overshoot, but the difference and the targeted advantage of IB is of course.. better efficiency without the weight and room taken up with an enclosure.
> 
> 
> That said... here's some interesting bits of yore. Notice the 12 was only spec'd with a 40hz Fs albeit the 8 & 10 were high 30's? This wasn't uncommon back then though xmax wasn't as high as current subs. Lots of efficiency lost in unnecessary low Fs these days I bet.
> ...


I didn't have to do much, but it was too efficient at around 48hz. Iirc it took about 4db out of there and pushed about 3db into 22hz. To get to what I've found to be close to a half whit down to 20hz (for some reason I didn't tune to a target curve back then, was still quite green lol).
But what I gained was from 40hz down. I could somewhat tell that it was there previously, but it wasn't balanced with the rest of the response if I wanted leave enough xmax to rock out. Come to find out metal drops will go down into the 20hz range sometimes and the 10in didn't like it at all with higher volumes lol.
But yeah there there is tons of efficiency lost with low FS drivers. But since power is so cheap now, I would rather have a low FS sub with a high xmax and push a bit of boost into the higher frequencies if needed over throwing a ton of boost at the low end of a high fs driver that tends to have less xmax.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> I didn't have to do much, but it was too efficient at around 48hz. Iirc it took about 4db out of there and pushed about 3db into 22hz. To get to what I've found to be close to a half whit down to 20hz (for some reason I didn't tune to a target curve back then, was still quite green lol).
> But what I gained was from 40hz down. I could somewhat tell that it was there previously, but it wasn't balanced with the rest of the response if I wanted leave enough xmax to rock out. Come to find out metal drops will go down into the 20hz range sometimes and the 10in didn't like it at all with higher volumes lol.
> But yeah there there is tons of efficiency lost with low FS drivers. But since power is so cheap now, I would rather have a low FS sub with a high xmax and push a bit of boost into the higher frequencies if needed over *throwing a ton of boost* at the low end of a high fs driver that tends to have less xmax.


I like to throw alot of boost in too on the upper end....o wait....


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> I like to throw alot of boost in too on the upper end....o wait....
> 
> View attachment 311421


Also a bad time to throw boost at the bottom end! Nobody likes a bent rod lol


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> I like to throw alot of boost in too on the upper end....o wait....
> 
> View attachment 311421


Looks like you've got a few extra parts that mine seems to be missing?


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Also a bad time to throw boost at the bottom end! Nobody likes a bent rod lol


I do have some h beams in it so it might be ok


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Looks like you've got a few extra parts that mine seems to be missing?
> 
> View attachment 311422


That’s clean. But yea you have some parts left out 
I built a turbo setup for a guy with an 06 and it was a bit more difficult than my 2004.


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## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

KFXGUY said:


> in the rear deck. I did a lot of deadening too. The interior speakers sound great, it’s just the subs don’t sound right. Not enough frequency spread to them. (Note, this isn’t the deadening I have now. I pulled that out and used better stuff and did a better job).
> 
> View attachment 310766


Replace that with thick and wide enough MDF.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Selkec said:


> What a long thread! It’s really very simple.
> You need bigger subs or at least subs designed for IB or that have specs better for IB.
> Even then going under 30hz with small subs isn’t likely.
> 
> ...


This thread is so long because some idiot engineer put a fuel tank between the trunk and back seat in this guy's car, he doesn't want a box in the trunk, and most people can't understand why he can't just use a larger sub.
I think he should just yank the fuel tank, install a fuel cell, install his favorite sub in the newly empty spot, and throw his cargo in the back seat, but that's just me.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> You will not find anything with six inputs. The only thing is a jl audio fix 86. Six in. 8 out. Not a processor. Line driver....kinda.
> Just mount the freaking knob. I know you gotta blank that your not using for fogight switches or something.....


MiniDSP C-DSP 8x12 has 6 rca inputs.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

evo9 said:


> Replace that with thick and wide enough MDF.
> 
> View attachment 311424


Why?


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> Why?


3d printed baffles aren't very heavy. Even if you print with 100% infill, they aren't nearly as dense as MDF. And weight will help the rear deck from flexing as much and robbing you of output


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

ckirocz28 said:


> I think he should just yank the fuel tank, install a fuel cell, install his favorite sub in the newly empty spot, and throw his cargo in the back seat, but that's just me.


I like how you’re thinking.

There must be a ton of space available for a true ib sub cutout into the space where the fuel tank normally would be, under the car…


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> You will not find anything with six inputs. The only thing is a jl audio fix 86. Six in. 8 out. Not a processor. Line driver....kinda.
> Just mount the freaking knob. I know you gotta blank that your not using for fogight switches or something.....


Not true. Most dsp have 6. My helix dsp.3 has 6


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Selkec said:


> Not true. Most dsp have 6. My helix





Thomasluke7899 said:


> You will not find anything with six inputs. The only thing is a jl audio fix 86. Six in. 8 out. Not a processor. Line driver....kinda.
> Just mount the freaking knob. I know you gotta blank that your not using for fogight switches or something.....


Yeah, there are quite a few with 6 input. Minidsp 6x8, helix dsp.3, audison bit nove, audio control dm-608, ect.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Lol. If you guys saw what I had to custom build for this fuel tank to house twin 340 pumps and not have fuel slosh issues, you’d understand why there will be no fuel tank removal to accommodate a speaker.
I fabricated this bucket, hold 2.5 liters of fuel with the pumps in it. I machined the top out of solid billet bar stock.
here’s a peep


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> 3d printed baffles aren't very heavy. Even if you print with 100% infill, they aren't nearly as dense as MDF. And weight will help the rear deck from flexing as much and robbing you of output


Honestly, and not trying to undermine your suggestion, but I feel certain the possible gain isn’t worth the effort. And besides, the back deck has double layers on a lot of it and multiple stiffening bends. For the small amount of sub bass I’m after, I just don’t think it’s worth it. I know some of you may notice I have a pump 750 mono amp, but that’s because I had different subs in there. I got that amp free from Fosgate when I was doing some product testing for them. Actually I got loads of stuff for free back then, and this is one of the better amps I have left so I used it.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Selkec said:


> Not true. Most dsp have 6. My helix dsp.3 has 6


That's not under 350 now is it...


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Honestly, and not trying to undermine your suggestion, but I feel certain the possible gain isn’t worth the effort.


That should be at the top of every response.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> Honestly, and not trying to undermine your suggestion, but I feel certain the possible gain isn’t worth the effort. And besides, the back deck has double layers on a lot of it and multiple stiffening bends. For the small amount of sub bass I’m after, I just don’t think it’s worth it. I know some of you may notice I have a pump 750 mono amp, but that’s because I had different subs in there. I got that amp free from Fosgate when I was doing some product testing for them. Actually I got loads of stuff for free back then, and this is one of the better amps I have left so I used it.


I dont think the MDF will help a ton in comparison. Just going off of his suggestion.
But no, I understand, I just know how much good sub bass brings to music after it's been experienced. I've had recovering bass heads/spl guys and people who "hate bass" tell me the same thing when I've had this conversation with them. But they have all changed their mind when they have hopped in my car (and it's not all that great lol). Typically the bass heads ask why the sub is so quiet and are surprised when I tell them it's being pushed up to its limits on some tracks.
I would see if there is anyone around with a solid build that you can listen to. But everyone has different needs, so I'm not here to judge.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> That's not under 350 now is it...








C-DSP 6x8


The miniDSP C-DSP 6x8 is a Digital Signal Processor (DSP) targeting mobile/car audio installations. The audio configuration of 6 x inputs (analog and digital) by 8 x outputs is perfect for multi-way setups and easily controllable from Win/Mac platforms.




www.minidsp.com




$299 - Brand new.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> C-DSP 6x8
> 
> 
> The miniDSP C-DSP 6x8 is a Digital Signal Processor (DSP) targeting mobile/car audio installations. The audio configuration of 6 x inputs (analog and digital) by 8 x outputs is perfect for multi-way setups and easily controllable from Win/Mac platforms.
> ...


That's not included. He excluded them in the last thread.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

I think he should link the other two threads. That way we don't keep going in circles. I mean....doesn't matter really I'm clicking in it anyway at this point.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> I think he should link the other two threads. That way we don't keep going in circles. I mean....doesn't matter really I'm clicking in it anyway at this point.


Yeah 15 pages in linking two other 15 page threads out to bring all this together!😂 But in all seriousness what’s the latest plan?


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

DaveG said:


> Yeah 15 pages in linking two other 15 page threads out to bring all this together!😂 But in all seriousness what’s the latest plan?


He has ordered the cerwin vega subs that I believe you as well as myself recommended like....what man.....23 pages ago. He will be installing those and hoping for some magic I believe.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> That's not included. He excluded them in the last thread.


Ahh, I see. There is some lore to this story loolol


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

DaveG said:


> Yeah 15 pages in linking two other 15 page threads out to bring all this together!😂 But in all seriousness what’s the latest plan?


The plan. Well. The Vegas were supposed to be here yesterday. Then pushed back to today. Now tracking just says pending delivery. That’s the plan for now. Try those out. They do good, I’ll leave it alone for now. If they don’t, well I have a few other ideas. One being build boxes into my back seat side panels (pics earlier on in the thread does how much room is in there...a lot). Or build a fiberglass enclosure in the side corner of the trunk. I’ve got quite a few more ideas but I’ll stop while I’m ahead.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> The plan. Well. The Vegas were supposed to be here yesterday. Then pushed back to today. Now tracking just says pending delivery. That’s the plan for now. Try those out. They do good, I’ll leave it alone for now. If they don’t, well I have a few other ideas. One being build boxes into my back seat side panels (pics earlier on in the thread does how much room is in there...a lot). Or build a fiberglass enclosure in the side corner of the trunk. I’ve got quite a few more ideas but I’ll stop while I’m ahead.


I like the glassed Into the corner of the trunk idea. Couple that with the quick disconnects for easy removal for track time, and you will have the same thing I've got going on =)


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Ahh, I see. There is some lore to this story loolol


Yoooo...you have no idea...


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> I like the glassed Into the corner of the trunk idea. Couple that with the quick disconnects for easy removal for track time, and you will have the same thing I've got going on =)


Pretty freaking simple huh....well I don't remember why that's a no go....but it's a hard deal breaker.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> The plan. Well. The Vegas were supposed to be here yesterday. Then pushed back to today. Now tracking just says pending delivery. That’s the plan for now. Try those out. They do good, I’ll leave it alone for now. If they don’t, well I have a few other ideas. One being build boxes into my back seat side panels (pics earlier on in the thread does how much room is in there...a lot). Or build a fiberglass enclosure in the side corner of the trunk. I’ve got quite a few more ideas but I’ll stop while I’m ahead.


Whats the center console look like? Probably kinda heavy anyway.
I would yank it out and do something like this....
This looks like a f150 but it'll probably fit.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Passenger footwell maybe?


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

And....this has been mentioned like....idk a lot....
But you could just


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

It's more disheartening or irritating to see someone constantly be harassed in their fumbling than it is to see them fumbling. Take it any way as pleased, but it's rather a good thing to have a member playing around, trying different drivers to get a targeted result. At least he's learning what those numbers actually do in real world use because most just live through someone else's supposed knowledge without actually knowing for themselves if it's just fluff or is it actually true. 

It's easy to push "this is the best way" or "those are the best to use" and have people blindly follow without actually knowing why or having it proven to them. There's numerous examples of this throughout the years. It's what starts boners that wind up flaccid.... lawdamercy, there's been plenty of that. 

Learning like this might seem the hard way, but in the end he will have a better understanding of how to choose gear for a targeted result. Many still do not possess such... or at least as much as they think. 

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


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## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

KFXGUY said:


> Why?


See below. If you don't believe that. Mount the woofer on top of a 55 gallon drum, listen to the results . Then mount the same woofer on a sheet of 3/4" MDF, lay it down on a pillow or two. Listen to the results. 



Picassotheimpaler said:


> 3d printed baffles aren't very heavy. Even if you print with 100% infill, they aren't nearly as dense as MDF. And weight will help the rear deck from flexing as much and robbing you of output


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

evo9 said:


> See below. If you don't believe that. Mount the woofer on top of a 55 gallon drum, listen to the results . Then mount the same woofer on a sheet of 3/4" MDF, lay it down on a pillow or two. Listen to the results.


Bro. Come on now. That’s a really extreme comparison. A drum is going to have a totally different resonance than a dual layer thick steel rear deck with deadening all over it with a speaker mounted in a 1/4” thick, 1” (ish) tall adapter ring. Not even a remotely close comparison. I do understand how you guys are thinking. But really, I don’t think the effort will be well spent. I’d rather put effort into just caving in and doing a nice custom box in the corner of the trunk.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Thi


evo9 said:


> See below. If you don't believe that. Mount the woofer on top of a 55 gallon drum, listen to the results . Then mount the same woofer on a sheet of 3/4" MDF, lay it down on a pillow or two. Listen to the results.


This guy needs to change his name to kanye man....cause you know....na na na nana


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## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Thi
> 
> 
> This guy needs to change his name to kanye man....cause you know....na na na nana


Been doing this longer than you pal and have forgotten more than you will even know!


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## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

KFXGUY said:


> Bro. Come on now. That’s a really extreme comparison. A drum is going to have a totally different resonance than a dual layer thick steel rear deck with deadening all over it with a speaker mounted in a 1/4” thick, 1” (ish) tall adapter ring. Not even a remotely close comparison. I do understand how you guys are thinking. But really, I don’t think the effort will be well spent. I’d rather put effort into just caving in and doing a nice custom box in the corner of the trunk.



Yes extreme. But in order to get the most out of any woofer in an IB installation. The rear deck of your car needs to be as rigid and dense as possible. On some cars with OEM rear deck mounted subwoofers. You will find a blank piece of metal block or two mounted under the deck. These heavy metal blocks are used to add density to the rear deck. Also some noise control.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

evo9 said:


> Been doing this longer than you pal and have forgotten more than you will even know!


Not your name....buddy. the ops name.


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## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Not your name....buddy. the ops name.


OK, got yah!


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

evo9 said:


> Yes extreme. But in order to get the most out of any woofer in an IB installation. The rear deck of your car needs to be as rigid and dense as possible. On some cars with OEM rear deck mounted subwoofers. You will find a blank piece of metal block or two mounted under the deck. These heavy metal blocks are used to add density to the rear deck. Also some noise control.


I get ya. My car came with deck mounted subs. There’s lots of bracing and double metal and strengthening bends. It’s rigid because there’s a fuel tank behind the seat.


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## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

KFXGUY said:


> I get ya. My car came with deck mounted subs. There’s lots of bracing and double metal and strengthening bends. It’s rigid because there’s a fuel tank behind the seat.



Yeah! But keep in mind the OEM is just going to do enough to get their OEM solutions to work.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> I get ya. My car came with deck mounted subs. There’s lots of bracing and double metal and strengthening bends. It’s rigid because there’s a fuel tank behind the seat.


He isn't wrong. With IB, every bit helps. Expecially in the baffle. Mostly is noticable with the lower portions of its passband. I don't think it's going to solve your issue though, just potentially help it a bit.
Think of it like this, the entire rear deck is acting like it's own speaker when it's vibrating. And since there is much more surface area there compared to a couple of 8s, a small amount of vibration can actually produce quite a bit of sound. Catch is, because it's going to vibrate differently depending on it's resonant frequency. So it could either be out of phase, causing a fairly wide dip in your response or acting as general distortion that is going to color the sound. Both are bad lol.
It shouldn't be much work to try it, expecially since your already putting so much time into this. But if you don't want to spend the time, you can get a general idea of wether it will help or not.
Cut a couple small pieces of 2x4 or something similar and wedge them in between the rear deck and the gas tank nice and tight. Take a good listen before and after to some bass heavy music that covers a wide range of frequencies.
If you like the difference you can either work on bracing and adding mass to the deck via MDF or other means, or you can just leave your shims in there and call it a day.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> He isn't wrong. With IB, every bit helps. Expecially in the baffle. Mostly is noticable with the lower portions of its passband. I don't think it's going to solve your issue though, just potentially help it a bit.
> Think of it like this, the entire rear deck is acting like it's own speaker when it's vibrating. And since there is much more surface area there compared to a couple of 8s, a small amount of vibration can actually produce quite a bit of sound. Catch is, because it's going to vibrate differently depending on it's resonant frequency. So it could either be out of phase, causing a fairly wide dip in your response or acting as general distortion that is going to color the sound. Both are bad lol.
> It shouldn't be much work to try it, expecially since your already putting so much time into this. But if you don't want to spend the time, you can get a general idea of wether it will help or not.
> Cut a couple small pieces of 2x4 or something similar and wedge them in between the rear deck and the gas tank nice and tight. Take a good listen before and after to some bass heavy music that covers a wide range of frequencies.
> If you like the difference you can either work on bracing and adding mass to the deck via MDF or other means, or you can just leave your shims in there and call it a day.


maybe I’ll try that. There’s a heavy duty brace on the underside of the deck. I think it’s like 1”x1” square steel bar and it braces the deck. I would imagine it adds mass and a good bit of rigidity. I also have deadening on the top and bottom of the deck. Where the speaker bolts on both sides, it’s double layer steel. But if it’ll make you guys happy, I could add some more steel to the bottom side and make it more rigid. Before I do that, I’m going to get in the back of the car while I playing some heavy bass and see if it’s flexing. If it is, I happen to be pretty well equipped for metal fabrication.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Those braces aren’t really adding any rigidity to the rear deck. They’re there to support the fuel tank brace which goes between the tank and the cargo space.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Stoopalini said:


> Those braces aren’t really adding any rigidity to the rear deck. They’re there to support the fuel tank brace which goes between the tank and the cargo space.
> 
> View attachment 311544


I am very confused about that 2x4 in there. Is there typically a piece of metal there or something? Or is that an after market brace?


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> maybe I’ll try that. There’s a heavy duty brace on the underside of the deck. I think it’s like 1”x1” square steel bar and it braces the deck. I would imagine it adds mass and a good bit of rigidity. I also have deadening on the top and bottom of the deck. Where the speaker bolts on both sides, it’s double layer steel. But if it’ll make you guys happy, I could add some more steel to the bottom side and make it more rigid. Before I do that, I’m going to get in the back of the car while I playing some heavy bass and see if it’s flexing. If it is, I happen to be pretty well equipped for metal fabrication.


Yeah, it looks like that particular brace isn't doing much,, if anything for the deck. So I wouldn't count on it, unless sheet metal is very thick. Its gonna resonate. Even if it isn't visibly flexing, it can still add quite a bit just due to the large surface area. I would try the bracing first before going crazy with sheet metal and a welder over your gas tank lol.
Prototypes are a thing for a reason. A small amount of work to check for an intended result. If you get the desired result, then you can go crazy and improve the result.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> I am very confused about that 2x4 in there. Is there typically a piece of metal there or something? Or is that an after market brace?


I believe there is an amplifier mounted to the other side.
A pretty sizable Toro. Mono....maybe a five channel.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Yeah, it looks like that particular brace isn't doing much,, if anything for the deck. So I wouldn't count on it, unless sheet metal is very thick. Its gonna resonate. Even if it isn't visibly flexing, it can still add quite a bit just due to the large surface area. I would try the bracing first before going crazy with sheet metal and a welder over your gas tank lol.
> Prototypes are a thing for a reason. A small amount of work to check for an intended result. If you get the desired result, then you can go crazy and improve the result.


I can get some thick aluminum (al-you-min-e-um for you over seas chaps) plate. cut some squares an drill and tap the ends. screws from the top side of the deck, then drill and tap into the sides of the braces. Just an idea.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Starting to chase your tail here... I think you really only have 2 (well 3 but you don't want a box in the trunk) choices at making decent bass. Either make enclosures behind your b-pillars or fiberglass an enclosure in your passenger trunk corner. IB 8's is no bueno! Feel free to make that your signature!!!


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## chrisp2493 (Apr 18, 2021)

300 posts down, think we will get to 400?


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

DaveG said:


> Starting to chase your tail here... I think you really only have 2 (well 3 but you don't want a box in the trunk) choices at making decent bass. Either make enclosures behind your b-pillars or fiberglass an enclosure in your passenger trunk corner. IB 8's is no bueno! Feel free to make that your signature!!!


I’m beginning to think that some people are thinking I want more bass than I really do. My new Silverado just about does it for me, so I’m wanting just a little more than that in my car, which I have a hard time believing that’s not possible. Especially since the car has more power and better speakers. I never once implied I was after bass that will knock your head off.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> I am very confused about that 2x4 in there. Is there typically a piece of metal there or something? Or is that an after market brace?


From the factory, there's a sizable brace which separates the fuel tank from the cargo area, and then a trim panel attaches to the brace. The brace attaches to the ends of those metal bars under the rear deck. I removed the brace years ago (for weight reduction), when I was tracking this car on the Texas road course circuit. Now, I have a 1x6 board bolted to the mount points, for my amplifier(s) to attach.

Here's a pic I found, showing the brace. Obviously not my car, but you get the point










Here's what it looks like with the trim panel in place










And here's what my trunk looks like, hence the board shown in the other pictures










I was going to cover the board with interior felt/carpet, etc ... but I'm now considering replacing the Toro amp (RX4S - 4 channel, 4x80w class A/B) with a M FOUR HELIX instead ... so will redesign the mounting if I do.

I can still drop my trim piece in place like this, and cover everything up when desired. If I replace the Toro with the Helix, I may devise a way to get the brace back in there, since I no longer need the weight reduction because I don't track the car anymore


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

chrisp2493 said:


> 300 posts down, think we will get to 400?


If you add the other 2 we at like 1200


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

My subs still have not made it here. Fed ex has no answers either. I just requested a refund. If That ends up happening, I'm going to order wither some peerless SLS 8's or some silverflute 8's. I'm on the fence about which ones. The efficiency is much higher on the flutes, I like the way the flutes I have now sound but i know the sls are supposed to be better speakers and the specs are much better for infinite baffle. My plan is to put passive crossover on the rear 6.5 flutes and the 8" flutes, but (I know I know) run the 6.5 and 8" together 20hm stereo in the rear and not put the 8's on the sub amp. Then I'll put my box sub back in until I build a custom enclosure. I have a kicker L5 square 8" that has been the most reliable speaker ive ever owned and it sounded better than the carbon fiber punch 12" I had.


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## chrisp2493 (Apr 18, 2021)

What about trying the Anarchy 704 7” midbass speakers in a small sealed box somewhere? If you can deal with the depth of them, they can easily play down to 40htz with decent output


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

chrisp2493 said:


> What about trying the Anarchy 704 7” midbass speakers in a small sealed box somewhere? If you can deal with the depth of them, they can easily play down to 40htz with decent output


Na....we are looking for real bass. But we are in a goldilocks situation. 
We don't want a lot. But more than we have now with 8s. 
Just gotta find the right bowl is all.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Na....we are looking for real bass. But we are in a goldilocks situation.
> We don't want a lot. But more than we have now with 8s.
> Just gotta find the right bowl is all.


You got it wrong and thats your own fault. the subs i have now are plenty loud enough, they just dont sound very good, especially at low frequencies. The specs on them lead you believe otherwise, which is why i ordered them. They sound muddy and distorted. Id rather them sound boomy than muddy and distorted. but whatever. you'll just keep on posting unhelpful crap.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

chrisp2493 said:


> What about trying the Anarchy 704 7” midbass speakers in a small sealed box somewhere? If you can deal with the depth of them, they can easily play down to 40htz with decent output


You know, I have looked at those a while back. Had them in my cart to order them but iirc I came across posts saying they were noisy at high excursions, so I ended up passing on them.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> My plan is to put passive crossover on the rear 6.5 flutes and the 8" flutes, but (I know I know) run the 6.5 and 8" together 20hm stereo in the rear and not put the 8's on the sub amp. Then I'll put my box sub back in until I build a custom enclosure.


I tried running a sub in the trunk along with mid-bass speakers in the rear deck, and it wasn't good at all. Too much interference between the sub's sound waves and the drivers in the deck.

This is the config I tried ... Things got real muddy during any music passages where the sub and mid-bass were playing at the same time.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> I tried running a sub in the trunk along with mid-bass speakers in the rear deck, and it wasn't good at all. Too much interference between the sub's sound waves and the drivers in the deck.
> 
> This is the config I tried ... Things got real muddy during any music passages where the sub and mid-bass were playing at the same time.
> View attachment 311564


Gotcha. I could always put the factory subs back in and knock the magnets off for a passive radiator situation.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> You got it wrong and thats your own fault. the subs i have now are plenty loud enough, they just dont sound very good, especially at low frequencies. The specs on them lead you believe otherwise, which is why i ordered them. They sound muddy and distorted. Id rather them sound boomy than muddy and distorted. but whatever. you'll just keep on posting unhelpful crap.


Right...which means you are driving them too hard in the lower octaves. 
Cause they are 8s. In infinite baffle. 
You want more than you are willing to admit. 
And that sir....is no one's fault but your own. 
It's entertaining watching you chase your tail. Like you almost catch...and then...lol


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Gotcha. I could always put the factory subs back in and knock the magnets off for a passive radiator situation.


That's not how passive radiators work man. You would be better of with nothing in the deck and a sub in the trunk. 
Have you tried that yet?


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> That's not how passive radiators work man. You would be better of with nothing in the deck and a sub in the trunk.
> Have you tried that yet?


Nah. The reason is the fuel pump is noisy. I kinda said that. Like 23 1/2 times. I know how a passive radiator is supposed to work. And I realize this isn’t ideal. But the reasoning for that is to sort of seal the trunk off from the cabin while killing the fuel pump buzz but letting bass still pass through. Maybe I’m over thinking it but if I have two large holes in the back deck my ac may be having to work harder to cool things off. And down here in Louisiana....it’s hot. 


Thomasluke7899 said:


> Right...which means you are driving them too hard in the lower octaves.
> Cause they are 8s. In infinite baffle.
> You want more than you are willing to admit.
> And that sir....is no one's fault but your own.
> It's entertaining watching you chase your tail. Like you almost catch...and then...lol


I think the truth of the matter is you enjoy disagreeing and/or arguing.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Right...which means you are driving them too hard in the lower octaves.
> Cause they are 8s. In infinite baffle.
> You want more than you are willing to admit.
> And that sir....is no one's fault but your own.
> It's entertaining watching you chase your tail. Like you almost catch...and then...lol


tell you what. You win. You are right about everything. Whatever you say. You everything, even if you don’t know, you still have an answer. Made up or not, does not matter. You sir are gods gift to car audio and we should all bow down to your mere existence.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> tell you what. You win. You are right about everything. Whatever you say. You everything, even if you don’t know, you still have an answer. Made up or not, does not matter. You sir are gods gift to car audio and we should all bow down to your mere existence.


Right....you literally have a reason for not doing everything people suggest. 
Noisy pump to...you just don't like it. 
I think I have discovered something you do like.....attention.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Pot, meet kettle.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

@KFXGUY Man, you were doing so good, LOL! 

The fuel pump noise is seriously annoying. When I took the rear deck speakers out, I immediately knew I had to solve it.

Definitely try some 1” foam like I’m using. I can’t hear it at all anymore.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> @KFXGUY Man, you were doing so good, LOL!
> 
> The fuel pump noise is seriously annoying. When I took the rear deck speakers out, I immediately knew I had to solve it.
> 
> Definitely try some 1” foam like I’m using. I can’t hear it at all anymore.


Yea this numbnuts drives a chevy spark or some econobox thing....I have twin 340 pumps with a return system, in a car thats actually pretty quiet and because I dont feel like constantly hearing the annoying buzzing...he thinks something is wrong with me. Well you know what, its my choice and my car and noise like that annoys me. So do idiot posts that yahoo's like him make. See when i ask for help, i outlined my wants/needs and what I prefer....I don't need some yahoo trying to convince me to live with something and be uncomfortable when it effects THEM zero percent and effects me....


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Wow...too bad the subs didn't show. I can't remember where I bought my set from. I buy a lot through Amazon since I'm a Prime member. Checked my emails Oops... a writeup I did on another site including installing those subs dates back to 2017.  not sure where I got them. 

Anyways.. people will keep saying what won't work or what rules you must go by while probably having limited experience or knowledge in such. A lot of what you hear is regurgitated from another source. No offense to anyone, but if you told me 8's won't work IB as subs, I'd probably laugh then block you. Been playing around with stuff since the 90's, familiar with and have own(ed) several testing measuring tools, DSP's etc. I think I would have given up long ago (2017) if the 8" subs in the rear deck weren't enough doing as intended. In fact, my recent testing and findings have proven what most say to be quite opposite and I've spoken on that already without so much of a peep of a reply.  The real world limitations with any setup are going to be bandwidth or output which are only determined by the user. That much is true, but these definitely don't sound like some aftermarket set of rear deck midbass as some would say. The Ultimax didn't either By the way.. I have a set of ZR800 in the front doors of my truck with the same or more power available to them. Ummm... yeah not the same. They'd blow if I treated them the same. 


Even though OP seems to work feverishly to find a solution, I still commend him for looking at certain parameters to learn rather than go by word of mouth only. Too many do the latter without examining and understanding the technical side of things. I don't agree with his total build like many, but at some point you realize it's not your investment. We're only here to help when needed, not to steer for ego points. I don't think anyone cares about some imaginary contest of who helped the most, or whatever goes on these days. 

Anyways... hopefully you'll find a solution. Hang in there! 

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Bayboy said:


> Wow...too bad the subs didn't show. I can't remember where I bought my set from. I buy a lot through Amazon since I'm a Prime member. Checked my emails Oops... a writeup I did on another site including installing those subs dates back to 2017.  not sure where I got them.
> 
> Anyways.. people will keep saying what won't work or what rules you must go by while probably having limited experience or knowledge in such. A lot of what you hear is regurgitated from another source. No offense to anyone, but if you told me 8's won't work IB as subs, I'd probably laugh then block you. Been playing around with stuff since the 90's, familiar with and have own(ed) several testing measuring tools, DSP's etc. I think I would have given up long ago (2017) if the 8" subs in the rear deck weren't enough doing as intended. In fact, my recent testing and findings have proven what most say to be quite opposite and I've spoken on that already without so much of a peep of a reply.  The real world limitations with any setup are going to be bandwidth or output which are only determined by the user. That much is true, but these definitely don't sound like some aftermarket set of rear deck midbass as some would say. The Ultimax didn't either By the way.. I have a set of ZR800 in the front doors of my truck with the same or more power available to them. Ummm... yeah not the same. They'd blow if I treated them the same.
> 
> ...


I’m kinda hoping they just show up. I’d really like to see how they sound.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Yea this numbnuts drives a chevy spark or some econobox thing....I have twin 340 pumps with a return system, in a car thats actually pretty quiet and because I dont feel like constantly hearing the annoying buzzing...he thinks something is wrong with me. Well you know what, its my choice and my car and noise like that annoys me. So do idiot posts that yahoo's like him make. See when i ask for help, i outlined my wants/needs and what I prefer....I don't need some yahoo trying to convince me to live with something and be uncomfortable when it effects THEM zero percent and effects me....


It's not my fault that....your subs didn't show up. 
8 inch subs don't work ib. 
Your fuel pumps are so loud that you need 3 different barriers between you. 
You don't want any knobs on that carbon fiber dash kit. 
You don't want a sub box in your trunk. 
You can't fit bigger subs. 
You can't find a dsp that suits all your needs. 
Your don't wanna brace a back deck that has two 8inch pistonic drivers attached. 
The list could go on for another 20 pages. 
Why don't you just let us know what you should do?
Then maybe we could help you....


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> It's not my fault that....your subs didn't show up.
> 8 inch subs don't work ib.
> Your fuel pumps are so loud that you need 3 different barriers between you.
> You don't want any knobs on that carbon fiber dash kit.
> ...


Ok, bye.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> Yea this numbnuts drives a chevy spark or some econobox thing....I have twin 340 pumps with a return system, in a car thats actually pretty quiet and because I dont feel like constantly hearing the annoying buzzing...he thinks something is wrong with me. Well you know what, its my choice and my car and noise like that annoys me. So do idiot posts that yahoo's like him make. See when i ask for help, i outlined my wants/needs and what I prefer....I don't need some yahoo trying to convince me to live with something and be uncomfortable when it effects THEM zero percent and effects me....


Here's the type of stuff my wife bought for her project, and I used in the OEM rear deck speaker mounting brackets. I just took one of the Tang Band woofers, and traced the mounting edge on the foam, and cut out 2 circles. Then I covered one side with vinyl tape, and the other side with black CCF from Second Skin. It worked really, really well. 









Amazon.com: FoamTouch 1x24x120HDF1.8 Upholstery Foam, 1" x 24" x 120", White : Arts, Crafts & Sewing


Shop FoamTouch at the Amazon Arts, Crafts & Sewing store. Free Shipping on eligible items. Save on everyday low prices.



www.amazon.com





Actually, you know what? I've got a bunch of the foam, tape and CCF laying around ... I can just make you two of them and send them USPS if you want? I can make them 8" round, and you can trim if needed, to fit into the adapters you printed.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Ok, bye.


Oh...and the car is a chevy cruze. 1.8 liter 4 cylinder. After market turbo sir. I can push 30 pounds through this little guy. I know about fuel pump whine. I just don't feel need to tell everyone. 

First deaden and then cover the entire tank with closed cell foam and a layer of mlv. 
But being you are concerned about the weight....just block off the back deck.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> You got it wrong and thats your own fault. the subs i have now are plenty loud enough, they just dont sound very good, especially at low frequencies. The specs on them lead you believe otherwise, which is why i ordered them. They sound muddy and distorted. Id rather them sound boomy than muddy and distorted. but whatever. you'll just keep on posting unhelpful crap.


This further solidified my opinion that you need larger drivers. I'm gonna harp on it again, more cone area doesn't mean big boomy bass if it's tuned well. It allows the woofers to play lower bass with less distortion. If tuned to do so, 2 10s wouldn't be any louder than the 8s are now in, lets say, the 45-80hz region. But it would be louder in the lowest bass frequencies that are punishing these 8s and causing distortion in the higher regions that currently sound good.

If "muddiness" is the problem. And you truely do listen at low to mid volumes, than a flexing rear deck could be part of the problem. I'm curious to hear about what happens with a bit of bracing.
A sheet of thick alu could help it, but you are going to need a MIGHTY thick sheet to act the same as a cross brace.
Doing this, you would be trying to push the resonant frequency up and outside of the subs passband. Using a sheet, you are making the deck stiffer which will push the resonant frequency up, but it is still a large flat sheet which will still want to resonate. If you use a cross brace similar to the stuffing a 2x4 piece smack dab in the middle of the deck and stuffed between the fuel tank and the deck, you are essentially cutting the sheet of metal (the rear deck) in half. So it theoretically should push up the resonant frequency up an octave without making the deck itself any thicker. Plus it's quick and easy to try to see if that is even part of your problem.
I'm curious to see the results if/when you give it a try


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> This further solidified my opinion that you need larger drivers. I'm gonna harp on it again, more cone area doesn't mean big boomy bass if it's tuned well. It allows the woofers to play lower bass with less distortion. If tuned to do so, 2 10s wouldn't be any louder than the 8s are now in, lets say, the 45-80hz region. But it would be louder in the lowest bass frequencies that are punishing these 8s and causing distortion in the higher regions that currently sound good.


Man.....it's like talking to a wall. He can't fit 10s sir. 
With a 3d printer a plasma cutter and he can't.....


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Man.....it's like talking to a wall. He can't fit 10s sir.
> With a 3d printer a plasma cutter and he can't.....


Eh, maybe he will give it a shot. Never know.
The inverted shallow mount 10s I think was a GOLDEN idea. Wouldn't need to cut any metal and could still get it to work with the space constraints under the deck.
But I still think figuring out how to stuff a 12in into the trunk with quick disconnects for the power so he can yank it for track time would be the move if weight is a priority. That would be the option that would save the most weight while still giving better results. Potentially not quite as good results as ib 10s, but that comes down to wether weight or sq is more important here.
And just to reiterate, ib8s WILL work. But only if you listen at low/moderate volumes, or if you are okay with only having clean bass down to ~40hz at moderate/jamming out volumes.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> And just to reiterate, ib8s WILL work. But only if you listen at low/moderate volumes, or if you are okay with only having clean bass down to ~40hz at moderate/jamming out volumes.


Can you show technical data to support that? Here's where that statement becomes vague enough to make that claim of any driver. At what DB level is jamming? Even easier, moderate? 

To aid in your reply.... are you saying that a sub's output in IB is weaker than the same cone size is in sealed? That's what I gather as there's several with sealed 8" that seemed to be satisfied, so let's make that connection. 

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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Bayboy said:


> Can you show technical data to support that? Here's where that statement becomes vague enough to make that claim of any driver. At what DB level is jamming? Even easier, moderate?
> 
> To aid in your reply.... are you saying that a sub's output in IB is weaker than the same cone size is in sealed? That's what I gather as there's several with sealed 8" that seemed to be satisfied, so let's make that connection.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


I can somewhat do that later on, I just didn't feel like spending the time to pull out the laptop and start modeling drivers to take screenshots for this conversation. But I dont have any 8s to take actual car measurements with atm. So Sims will have to do. But most people don't have an idea of what different SPL levels really compare to, so I tend not to use spl numbers.

But by going off of his comments that his 4 flutes ALMOST create enough bass on their own, their response curve when run in a door, and that his 4 flutes have the potential to move more air than the 8s that he is using, it is telling me that he is waiting more than these 2 8s will provide.

And yes I am saying that 8s in ib will produce less potential spl across a large portion of its bandwidth compared to sealed *IF the 8s running IB are being used without a subsonic filter*. The IB subs will naturally hix xmax before reaching the peak spl level of a sealed box unless the box in question is massive, or eq is applied.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> I can somewhat do that later on, I just didn't feel like spending the time to pull out the laptop and start modeling drivers to take screenshots for this conversation. But I dont have any 8s to take actual car measurements with atm. So Sims will have to do. But most people don't have an idea of what different SPL levels really compare to, so I tend not to use spl numbers.
> 
> But by going off of his comments that his 4 flutes ALMOST create enough bass on their own, their response curve when run in a door, and that his 4 flutes have the potential to move more air than the 8s that he is using, it is telling me that he is waiting more than these 2 8s will provide.
> 
> And yes I am saying that 8s in ib will produce less potential spl across a large portion of its bandwidth compared to sealed *IF the 8s running IB are being used without a subsonic filter*. The IB subs will naturally hix xmax before reaching the peak spl level of a sealed box unless the box in question is massive, or eq is applied.


so you don’t think that ADDING the 2 8’s with the flutes are going to do it for me when I’m only looking for a little more? I think it will. Why? Because the frequencies that they do work well is plenty loud enough. I’m going to yo a frequency sweep with these drivers and tell you guys for sure what frequencies are issues. Hang tight.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Nahhh... don't bother with the sims. I've used Win & BB Pro for years. Great tools for creating enclosures, driver comparisons, a few other things maybe, but not so accurate in predicting output in the real world use. I've yet to see anyone factor in real acoustics, power compression, etc. In fact, most still are in denial of how much power from their giant amps are actually being used. 


As far as the sub hitting xmax faster without an enclosure and needing a SSF, that's somewhat of a true statement, but that is what the enclosure does as well. The box raises Q, therefore it is trading the same... less bottom end for more overall output. Like you've stated, unless the box has been oversized which runs back to the realm of infinite baffle. The biggest difference is what's optimal for each sub. We could easily argue that a sub designed for ported would be handicapped in sealed, could we not? This leads to my next....


The biggest issue with 8" subs in IB isn't that there's not enough cone area, excursion, etc for good output. A quick search with DIYMA shows 8's still to be of a satisfactory size for some. The issue is marketing & targeting. There's no big demand for an IB optimized 8".. for car use at that which is different than home audio IB or small sealed. Therefore, you'll rarely see an 8" targeted solely for car audio IB... if there's one at all. Marine gets the advantage there though it would be hard to convince anyone to pay "marine prices" with specs they "don't think" are optimal for use in a car. There might be one or a few IIRC 



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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

As far as mating 8's to his Flutes, I rather not get on that subject because that's a conundrum within itself. Maybe one day he'll choose to go that far, maybe he won't. My only concern... subs since I happen to be playing with a set of 8". My weakest link are the 5.25 components. They can't match up with the 8's at upper levels of the subs were to just be let loose. I have some 6.5" I could cram in there, but for now.. meh 

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## RyuTsuiSen (Jan 26, 2018)

Bayboy said:


> Nahhh... don't bother with the sims. I've used Win & BB Pro for years. Great tools for creating enclosures, driver comparisons, a few other things maybe, but not so accurate in predicting output in the real world use. I've yet to see anyone factor in real acoustics, power compression, etc. In fact, most still are in denial of how much power from their giant amps are actually being used.
> 
> 
> As far as the sub hitting xmax faster without an enclosure and needing a SSF, that's somewhat of a true statement, but that is what the enclosure does as well. The box raises Q, therefore it is trading the same... less bottom end for more overall output. Like you've stated, unless the box has been oversized which runs back to the realm of infinite baffle. The biggest difference is what's optimal for each sub. We could easily argue that a sub designed for ported would be handicapped in sealed, could we not? This leads to my next....
> ...


So you're saying if I set my gain on my 3k watt amp for my dual 18s at -5db tones I'm not using anywhere close to that? Even if they slam?

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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Bayboy said:


> Nahhh... don't bother with the sims. I've used Win & BB Pro for years. Great tools for creating enclosures, driver comparisons, a few other things maybe, but not so accurate in predicting output in the real world use. I've yet to see anyone factor in real acoustics, power compression, etc. In fact, most still are in denial of how much power from their giant amps are actually being used.
> 
> 
> As far as the sub hitting xmax faster without an enclosure and needing a SSF, that's somewhat of a true statement, but that is what the enclosure does as well. The box raises Q, therefore it is trading the same... less bottom end for more overall output. Like you've stated, unless the box has been oversized which runs back to the realm of infinite baffle. The biggest difference is what's optimal for each sub. We could easily argue that a sub designed for ported would be handicapped in sealed, could we not? This leads to my next....
> ...


Agreed on all fronts.
The second of your replies is what leads me into my comment of needing more cone area and output for this application.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

RyuTsuiSen said:


> So you're saying if I set my gain on my 3k watt amp for my dual 18s at -5db tones I'm not using anywhere close to that? Even if they slam?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


Who are you???

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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Agreed on all fronts.
> The second of your replies is what leads me into my comment of needing more cone area and output for this application.


But that doesn't mean none exist.. just not marketed as solely. That only makes it harder for someone without enough experience or knowledge to choose something that's appropriate 

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## RyuTsuiSen (Jan 26, 2018)

Bayboy said:


> Who are you???
> 
> Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


A wandering joker lol

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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Bayboy said:


> But that doesn't mean none exist.. just not marketed as solely. That only makes it harder for someone without enough experience or knowledge to choose something that's appropriate
> 
> Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


Oh, no, that wasn't my intention at all.
There absolutely are subs that will work well in IB setups for some people.
I just don't think that, based on the information given here, it would be what he is looking for.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> so you don’t think that ADDING the 2 8’s with the flutes are going to do it for me when I’m only looking for a little more? I think it will. Why? Because the frequencies that they do work well is plenty loud enough. I’m going to yo a frequency sweep with these drivers and tell you guys for sure what frequencies are issues. Hang tight.


Man...the reason they don't work is because for the same spl level to be achieved at 30 hertz that you have at 60 hertz the woofer has to move more. 
How much more? Enough to cause problems with the coil hitting the back plate of the motor. I mean magnet. 
It doesn't matter what 8 inch subs you choose. The only way to get more output the lower you go is to move more air. 
Bigger cones move more of that air a lot more easily than smaller ones. 
If you learned or already know how to use winisd you could see this for yourself in graphs. 
As the frequency drops the excursion goes up. 
Except on the 8s it's just much. The subs voice coil is leaving the magnetic gap that controls it. 
So you get sloppy ass bass because literally the woofer has no control left.


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## MattAFLiving (Aug 27, 2021)

I have personally enjoyed all of the conversations about this car and the problem set put forth. It’s a massive thinking exercise. It has also been the most active thread on this forum.
I would be interested to see the side pocket subwoofers though, I feel like that’s the most versatile option at this point since the the rear deck has so many restrictions.
Could you do IB for the side panels, no sure what it looks like inside those areas.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> so you don’t think that ADDING the 2 8’s with the flutes are going to do it for me when I’m only looking for a little more? I think it will. Why? Because the frequencies that they do work well is plenty loud enough. I’m going to yo a frequency sweep with these drivers and tell you guys for sure what frequencies are issues. Hang tight.


No, I don't. Reason being that unless you are doing what @oabeieo does and use FIR filters, you have to use a crossover between the flutes and the 8s somewhere. And you are trying to hand off even lower frequencies that need more air moved than your flutes can manage, to a set of speakers with less cone area.
If you put a crossover on the subs to keep them from playing higher frequencies and don't on the flutes, unless you get very lucky or pick your 8s crossover to match the roll off of the flutes, you are going to run into cancelation due to phase issues.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

MattAFLiving said:


> I would be interested to see the side pocket subwoofers though, I feel like that’s the most versatile option at this point since the the rear deck has so many restrictions.
> Could you do IB for the side panels, no sure what it looks like inside those areas.


Building enclosures for the rear seat side panels is definitely the most elegant solution, and a lot of guys do just that. There's a lot of space in there, not for an IB config, but for a sealed enclosure with a 10" or 12". Then the rear deck can be used for rear fill, if desired.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

MattAFLiving said:


> I have personally enjoyed all of the conversations about this car and the problem set put forth. It’s a massive thinking exercise. It has also been the most active thread on this forum.
> I would be interested to see the side pocket subwoofers though, I feel like that’s the most versatile option at this point since the the rear deck has so many restrictions.
> Could you do IB for the side panels, no sure what it looks like inside those areas.


you know. I’ve actually really thought about that. 8’s would fit there too. I think to do 10’s it would take a box tho.


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## MattAFLiving (Aug 27, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Building enclosures for the rear seat side panels is definitely the most elegant solution, and a lot of guys do just that. There's a lot of space in there, not for an IB config, but for a sealed enclosure with a 10" or 12". Then the rear deck can be used for rear fill, if desired.
> 
> View attachment 311611


Well if we cut out the outer skin……..IB…….lmao


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## MattAFLiving (Aug 27, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> you know. I’ve actually really thought about that. 8’s would fit there too. I think to do 10’s it would take a box tho.


 I bet you’ll get the sound you’re looking for with the sealed 10s though.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Stoopalini said:


> Building enclosures for the rear seat side panels is definitely the most elegant solution, and a lot of guys do just that. There's a lot of space in there, not for an IB config, but for a sealed enclosure with a 10" or 12". Then the rear deck can be used for rear fill, if desired.
> 
> View attachment 311611


So just cut the speaker mounting panel out. It does not look like it stiffens anything having that bend. 
Jeez...so simple. A piece of mdf with a 12 screwed to the panel with dry wall screws and sealed with raamat would be better than 8s in the back deck.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

MattAFLiving said:


> Well if we cut out the outer skin……..IB…….lmao


I like your style. Been trying to get him to cut this **** for like 3 weeks.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> you know. I’ve actually really thought about that. 8’s would fit there too. I think to do 10’s it would take a box tho.


Why 8s? You could do 2 12s and have some clean ass bass that drops low.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> you know. I’ve actually really thought about that. 8’s would fit there too. I think to do 10’s it would take a box tho.


Even using 8s would require a box to get any bass.

I’ve seen guys actually put shallow 13s in there.

My long term plan is to figure out a way to put sealed 10s in mine. But I’m focusing on the front stage and DSP for now, and using my sealer 12 in the trunk in the meantime.

I asked that guy in Australia if he would share his design specs for those enclosures I posted earlier in this thread, but he’s not keen to share them 😔.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Stoopalini said:


> Even using 8s would require a box to get any bass.
> 
> I’ve seen guys actually put shallow 13s in there.
> 
> ...


Pay him. Then charge this guy double. Duh....


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Since this thread has become full of fluff and I'm an early bird filled with robust coffee, I feel it's appropriate to add more fluff.... at least positive edutainment. 


Often having fun with experimenting & measuring, I pulled out the DATS previously for some answers. To my surprise... and perhaps shocking to others (doubt it, but hey ) I took delight in what was found. 

Hopefully these upload in correct order... but the low Qts driver is one that I've had for years (well over 10 IIRC) and appears to still measure well in free air (no enclosure or baffle). Slight differences are to be expected, but ratios should remain similar enough that enclosure design remains unaffected. It was used as a control while checking the other drivers. 

The next two drivers are the ones that held duties in the rear deck. One with seemingly too high numbers for what would be "ideal" and the other looks like it's just about perfect. However, in real world use, what might seem as perfect isn't always so.























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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Next, here's some borrowed graphs from JohnK (Tech talk) & our own Patrick in this thread:








Does Anyone Understand Cabin Gain


Has anyone on this forum studied cabin gain? This is JBL's measurement of cabin gain. I've used this jpg a million times, but I think I made some fundamental mistakes in my understanding of room gain. If what I've studied yesterday is correct, it leads to some surprising conclusions! These...




www.diymobileaudio.com





Had to borrow since my CPU is dead along with all my collection of data over the years.

Anyways... the graph below is of different driver Q's with similar Fs (20hz) all in free air. Quite obvious to some, but notice the difference in low frequency amplitude between "ideal" Q and high. 

The graph in the above link is cabin gain shown from several vehicle types & sizes. If an average trace could be used, would it be safe to say that 60hz is a decent starting point for a -12db roll-off to dovetail with the car? Meaning this would theoretically work with the car to produce a linear bottom end? 

Relevancy to my playing with the different subs? The more ideal sub on paper actually sounded more exaggerated on the bottom end despite having a relaxed Q, this needed more work to sound correct. It's lack of overshoot wasn't much help with certain genres that had some emphasis above 50hz, which is most pop music. This meant while dialing down the bottom end (EQ or -6db SSF) some slight boost was needed in the 60-80hz range. At least for my tastes. Similar to ported... easily dipping below cabin gain adds more of a bottom end peak to be tamed. 

The higher 1.29 Q driver with its ridiculous looking 46hz Fs was put back into place for a recomparison. The EQ set back to flat and crossover remained up around 100hz. Of course, it demonstrated a more robust bass emphasized around 45-60hz but surprisingly still dipped below. A slight EQ cut (-3 or 4db) targeted right on Fs takes away that rumble so familiar with the old infamous Punch amps could dial in back in the 90's. Around -6db cut and it almost becomes too relaxed for such music as Genesis, Incognito, Reel People, and some old school tracks. EQ was returned to a more conservative touch. Bass tracks (Bass 305, Silicon Bass, and a few other artists) are queued. Hmmm... bass below Fs was not a problem. In fact, no EQ or SSF needed below Fs to prevent the sub from detonating. The sub played cleaner than the more "ideal" one that had been assisted. Apparently, the higher roll-off point worked better in IB even in the lowest notes, yet the overshoot was useful as well. 











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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

My last solo posting as I feel like an internet hog this morning, but coffee + early morning may result in psychobabble. 

Anyways.. doing some searching... perhaps confirmation bias to some, I ran across an old favorite often forgotten. This is always a good read from long ago. Seems irrelevant, but notice post #7









Advantages of low QTS woofers?


Curious what the advantages of low QTS woofers and subwoofers are, given all the hype towards high QTS? Is it that high QTS is superior for IB (a popular thing on this forum for both trunk mounted subs and door mounted woofers)? I get this impression that low QTS drivers are meant to be in...




www.diymobileaudio.com





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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

After reading some of that, I’ve concluded the dipole woofers I have are a poor choice for my application. Anybody wanna buy a set of 8” really nice dipole woofers for cheap? Lol 

what could I use them for really?


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> After reading some of that, I’ve concluded the dipole woofers I have are a poor choice for my application. Anybody wanna buy a set of 8” really nice dipole woofers for cheap? Lol
> 
> what could I use them for really?


A dipole set up....


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Something like this....


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Save some space with a corner piece....


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

KFXGUY said:


> After reading some of that, I’ve concluded the dipole woofers I have are a poor choice for my application. Anybody wanna buy a set of 8” really nice dipole woofers for cheap? Lol
> 
> what could I use them for really?


It's somewhat of a cat & mouse game when no company is really targeting 8" auto IB use. The Ultimax could still prove to be useful... but the main thing is rather than rely on simple high pass filters, I should have pulled out the mic and used the RTA to dial them in. Still, it was interesting learning to unlearn following trendy things and just get back to the basics. We all get caught up in it at times.. just don't lose your common sense. 

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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> After reading some of that, I’ve concluded the dipole woofers I have are a poor choice for my application. Anybody wanna buy a set of 8” really nice dipole woofers for cheap? Lol
> 
> what could I use them for really?


Do you have a home setup? You could use them as midbass drivers on a DIY set of home speakers


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Maybe a more modern 3 way set up.....


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Do you have a home setup? You could use them as midbass drivers on a DIY set of home speakers


Sort of. I have a man cave (my workshop) but I have a Bose acoustimass system in it currently. Sounds pretty good enough. I would like to upgrade what I have in my little garage tho. But I think I’m going to change out the drivers in the current speakers and put flutes in. I actually have some brand new punch 8” mid ranges and compression tweets I was gonna use for that but I think I’m gonna post them up for sale soon


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Sort of. I have a man cave (my workshop) but I have a Bose acoustimass system in it currently. Sounds pretty good enough.


Should of lead that a month and 3 threads ago.....


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KFXGUY said:


> Sort of. I have a man cave (my workshop) but I have a Bose acoustimass system in it currently. Sounds pretty good enough. I would like to upgrade what I have in my little garage tho. But I think I’m going to change out the drivers in the current speakers and put flutes in. *I actually have some brand new punch 8” mid ranges and compression tweets I was gonna use for that but I think I’m gonna post them up for sale soon*


I have some experience with the PPS4-8 midrange/midbass, PP4-T tweeter, and PP4-X passive (perhaps you have these or similar). I blindly bought two pairs of each before I found DIYMA back in 2016 (it's a long story that is documented in a few threads here), and went on to build a pair of towers with one of those Punch sets and four Skar IX-8 subs (two each). Turns out those tweets need far more attenuation than those awful passives can provide; the Punch 8s roll-off extremely early; and those four sealed IX-8s fight a losing battle to either serve as subs or make up for the midbass shortcomings of the Punch 8s (never mind both). The MiniDSP 2x4 I purchased for them is essential.

If only I had come here and done a bit of research first, I would never have bought those Punch Pro components and Skar IX-8s.

However, through my many mistakes, and with the help of many kind, patient and knowledgeable folks here, I managed to learn a bit along the way, and that's what matters most to me.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Grinder said:


> I have some experience with the PPS4-8 midrange/midbass, PP4-T tweeter, and PP4-X passive (perhaps you have these or similar). I blindly bought two pairs of each before I found DIYMA back in 2016 (it's a long story that is documented in a few threads here), and went on to build a pair of towers with one of those Punch sets and four Skar IX-8 subs (two each). Turns out those tweets need far more attenuation than those awful passives can provide; the Punch 8s roll-off extremely early; and those four sealed IX-8s fight a losing battle to either serve as subs or make up for the midbass shortcomings of the Punch 8s (never mind both). The MiniDSP 2x4 I purchased for them is essential.
> 
> If only I had come here and done a bit of research first, I would never have bought those Punch Pro components and Skar IX-8s.
> 
> However, through my many mistakes, and with the help of many kind, patient and knowledgeable folks here, I managed to learn a bit along the way, and that's what matters most to me.


The pp4t tweeters is what I have and the mids are the pps4. I really have no use for them and they are collecting dust. I was going to put them (mids) in the rear dash for rear fill and run a sub in the trunk, I’ve since changed my mind. Which I seem to do on a daily basis. Vegas still aren’t here yet.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KFXGUY said:


> The pp4t tweeters is what I have and the mids are the pps4. I really have no use for them and they are collecting dust. I was going to put them (mids) in the rear dash for rear fill and run a sub in the trunk, I’ve since changed my mind. Which I seem to do on a daily basis. Vegas still aren’t here yet.


Yeah, good call not using those in your application. I suppose they're great for SPL (midrange ...midbass, not so much), and probably in demand among those folks. I doubt you'll have trouble selling them.

Fingers crossed for the Vegas.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> The pp4t tweeters is what I have and the mids are the pps4. I really have no use for them and they are collecting dust. I was going to put them (mids) in the rear dash for rear fill and run a sub in the trunk, I’ve since changed my mind. Which I seem to do on a daily basis. Vegas still aren’t here yet.


Send them back when you get them anyway. 
Put these in your side panels. Extra one for when you blow one. 








SOLD: JL Audio 13TW5-3 Subs, BNIB, Pair


ITEM BRAND & MODEL #: JL Audio 13TW5-3. Listing is for a pair. CONDITION: New In Box, Never installed. Never connected. PRICE: $1000 SHIPPING: at your expense. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION: I bought these when a friend closed his shop here in Knoxville. Stored in a climate-controlled closet...




www.diymobileaudio.com


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Still nothing. I called fed ex. And the seller called fed ex. They said if they font show up in 48 hours they will refund me and I’ll just order another set. Hey thanks fed ex. Lol.

honestly tho, if they came in today, I wouldn’t have been able to do anything. My float stuck on my ac unit, drain line was clogged so it wet my ceiling badly and it caved in. Nice. So now I’m dealing with that.


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## RyuTsuiSen (Jan 26, 2018)

KFXGUY said:


> honestly tho, if they came in today, I wouldn’t have been able to do anything. My float stuck on my ac unit, drain line was clogged so it wet my ceiling badly and it caved in. Nice. So now I’m dealing with that.


Wish there was a dislike button for that on my phone. Sorry to hear that, I hate sheetrock work. Mostly the mudwork.

At least your seller is cooperating with you on the FedEx issue.



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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

RyuTsuiSen said:


> Wish there was a dislike button for that on my phone. Sorry to hear that, I hate sheetrock work. Mostly the mudwork.
> 
> At least your seller is cooperating with you on the FedEx issue.
> 
> ...


I wish there was a button on my phone that would instantly fix my ceiling lol.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

I mean this thread has gotten a little ummm, off track I guess so I’ll post some pics for the full effect. I can tell you, my wife was hysterical. I had to calm her down. It started like this. My ac unit over flow drain was clogged and over flowed. 











then I guess it was worse than I thought, while I was up there pumping water....this happened


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Oh, man... that really sucks! I feel for you and your family.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Another added benefit to spray foam insulation. Stuff is water proof. Not all pink panther like that. 
Sucks man.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Well finally I got an update, they show to be on the truck for delivery today. woohoo...finally


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Well damn... they've been on a joyride from hell! I hope they're worth your wait. 

I haven't fiddled much with the system they're in with me. I've been trying to get my auto paint setup back in order so I can do body & paint from storm damage. I guess hurricane Micheal claimed my compressor too. The motor is toast. This must be the year for setbacks. 

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Well my initial impression is they feel better built than the audiophile woofers and much nicer than the Blaupunkts. The suspension is at least twice as stiff as the audiophile, maybe more. They look nice for sure. I mounted one in the adapter and I had to leave to go to a dinner. Maybe later this evening I’ll try em out.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I'll probably be in a drunken stupor from cheap wine, or in a corner shaking from an ice cream overload. Anyways.... enjoy your next trial

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Soooo how's it sounding?


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> Well my initial impression is they feel better built than the audiophile woofers and much nicer than the Blaupunkts. The suspension is at least twice as stiff as the audiophile, maybe more. They look nice for sure. I mounted one in the adapter and I had to leave to go to a dinner. Maybe later this evening I’ll try em out.
> 
> View attachment 311874


Myself and many others would much appreciate it if you spent $100 got yourself a measurement setup.
We would have a much easier time helping you, and you would potentially have a much better sounding system.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Myself and many others would much appreciate it if you spent $100 got yourself a measurement setup.
> We would have a much easier time helping you, and you would potentially have a much better sounding system.


Ya...between the dayton sub dsp and the radio eq. He should be able to do a little something.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Perhaps these Vegas will make all the difference and he'll easily get them dialed-in to his liking.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Grinder said:


> Perhaps these Vegas will make all the difference and he'll easily get them dialed-in to his liking.


Hopfully! But it will allow us to either figure out if he is having cancelation issues with the IB, if it is a tonality issue, if it is a phase issue, if it is an overall output issue, a distortion issue, ect.
Basically give much better advice and help point the best direction while also allowing him to tune properly


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Hopfully! But it will allow us to either figure out if he is having cancelation issues with the IB, if it is a tonality issue, if it is a phase issue, if it is an overall output issue, a distortion issue, ect.
> Basically give much better advice and help point the best direction while also allowing him to tune properly


There's no mystery here friend. He is just clapping those coils under 50 hertz. Needs more output. He doesn't want to admit it. But he wants more man.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Hopfully! But it will allow us to either figure out if he is having cancelation issues with the IB, if it is a tonality issue, if it is a phase issue, if it is an overall output issue, a distortion issue, ect.
> Basically give much better advice and help point the best direction while also allowing him to tune properly


100%

I'm just saying that for better or worse that ship has sailed if he's able to get the Vegas working well enough, or if he dumps the Vegas and moves on to a box in the trunk, or side panel boxes.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Alright. Because I’ve been waiting long enough, when I got home I installed one of them. Initial impression, much better. I only have to take out 3-4db at 40hz, the volume of all the bass notes are more evenly matched. The phase issue seems to be a non issue now. I played several problem songs to see how they sound, before they sounded like ass. Now, it has much more mid bass, and the bass frequencies in some ranges are no longer missing. They font drop as low as I’d like, but they will drop to 25-30hz but I have to be careful because I can make them rattle. This punch 750 is a mini beast so I have to be careful. This is the best it’s sounded so far with 8’s in the back dash. I’m anxious to get the other one installed and I’m going to add more deadening to it because now I can make things rattle.


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## RyuTsuiSen (Jan 26, 2018)

Here's hoping you find what youre wanting 

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

They also flow well with the flutes instead of being separated at times. It’s hard to explain, but definitely a much more positive experience with these.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

I’m not gonna say this is it just yet, but my plan was if it didn’t sound better I wasnt opening sub #2 and sending them back. I’m happy enough with how it sounds that I’m going to go ahead and put them both in. I’ll just have to live with the fact that the lowest notes won’t be that loud but they are there.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

That's awesome. I'm sure it will only get better when you install the other one. They'll probably need some breaking-in too.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

The guys above are correct, in that a measurement mic and REW would go a long way to getting the sound refined. I have a UMM-6 USB mic (about $100) and REW is free. 

In terms of playing below 25-30Hz, hmm .... even my sealed 12" Rockford Sub doesn't do well down that low. It can be tough to identify frequencies by ear, especially that low.

Here is what my sub response looks like without any EQ at all.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

After a tuning session, using REW and the EQ in my 80PRS head unit, this is what the full system response looks like.










I could refine it more, but I have a V Eight DSP mk2 Helix on the way, so will wait until that gets here to really dig in. But, I was able to smooth out the sub response to get a better balance in the low extension.


These cars have a nasty bump in the low mid region, between 200 - 450Hz. Are you sure you're not hearing this range when you think you're hearing 40Hz?

Below is a look at the response of my system before any EQ ... just crossovers set, and gains adjusted to get close to the target curve. I have the sub crossed at 63Hz in all of these graphs, and the mid's crossed at 80Hz. 

You can see the nasty hump I'm talking about from 200 - 450.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Stoopalini said:


> The guys above are correct, in that a measurement mic and REW would go a long way to getting the sound refined. I have a UMM-6 USB mic (about $100) and REW is free.
> 
> In terms of playing below 25-30Hz, hmm .... even my sealed 12" Rockford Sub doesn't do well down that low. It can be tough to identify frequencies by ear, especially that low.
> 
> ...


If you can post anechoic response for comparison, I think that would further illustrate your point.

Here is an excellent thread on cabin gain:








given that 'cabin gain' is a reality, do we...


or will a driver/box combo that rolls off about 45-37 actually sound better in a vehicle? just thinking out-loud? again. why would we want a driver/box combo that plays well into the low 20s if cabin gain is there anyway?




www.diymobileaudio.com


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Grinder said:


> anechoic response


Unfortunately, I didn't take any near field measurements. I was basically just getting something usable to hold me over until the Helix arrives, since my head unit was reset and lost the settings.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Stoopalini said:


> Unfortunately, I didn't take any near field measurements. I was basically just getting something usable to hold me over until the Helix arrives, since my head unit was reset and lost the settings.


Sorry, I was referring to modeled response without cabin gain and filters.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> The guys above are correct, in that a measurement mic and REW would go a long way to getting the sound refined. I have a UMM-6 USB mic (about $100) and REW is free.
> 
> In terms of playing below 25-30Hz, hmm .... even my sealed 12" Rockford Sub doesn't do well down that low. It can be tough to identify frequencies by ear, especially that low.
> 
> ...


and your probably correct, I’m going off of listening by ear and adjusting the level in that range and the bass gets louder when I add volume to say 25-30hz but makes no difference when I got outside of that range, for a given bass note I’m trying to correct.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> After a tuning session, using REW and the EQ in my 80PRS head unit, this is what the full system response looks like.
> 
> View attachment 311892
> 
> ...


I can’t comment yet on these subs in detail because I haven’t had enough time with them, but the previous subs, I could do a frequency sweep and pin point the problem areas and adjust them lower. Specifically 40hz was really bad with the tang band, Blaupunkts and the audiophile. The Vegas seem to be in a different realm as they font have that huge spike in volume at 40hz. It annoyed me having to cut 18-24db right at 40hz but yet have to bump it back up in the adjoining frequencies because of the slope. It really jacked things up having to do that. I think that’s why I never could get it to sound good enough. Honestly, this (1) is not bad by itself. I’m anxious to see how the second one is going to add to it.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Grinder said:


> Sorry, I was referring to modeled response without cabin gain and filters.


Right, I was thinking near field and room measurements spliced together to provide the anechoic response. But I think you're talking about modeling it in something like WinISD?




KFXGUY said:


> and your probably correct, I’m going off of listening by ear and adjusting the level in that range and the bass gets louder when I add volume to say 25-30hz but makes no difference when I got outside of that range, for a given bass note I’m trying to correct.


EQ'ing sound can be non-intuitive at times. You could make adjustments at one freq, and have it impact several others. Phase is one reason this happens. But unless you can watch an RTA while making the adjustments, it's really tough to know what's actually going on.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Right, I was thinking near field and room measurements spliced together to provide the anechoic response. But I think you're talking about modeling it in something like WinISD?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True.

So I'm rethinking things right now. I dont really need a 750w amp on what I have. I'm thinking about buying something that wont be gross ovekill like what I have and MAYBE have a dsp built in. that would be nice. I'd like to get rid of the dayton dsp if possible. I'd prefer less components if possible. Amp suggestions maybe? without me starting ANOTHER 400+ post thread...lol


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

A knee in the 200-400hz range that sounds like 40hz?  I don't know about all that.... but, here's the thing I dislike about low Q midwoofers. While they tend to be snappy and sound quick (more accurate in the midrange), they have absolutely caused problems for me in every setup in the 200-400hz range. They usually need major cuts in that range to keep from sounding too chesty. If you look at most higher Q midwoofers, they tend to have the rise starting beneath which is beneficial. That's my main concern with his setup. 


As far as subs being overbearing and lacking definition, slight attenuation in the 50-60hz usually cleans that up, making from 80-120hz & 40hz & under more intelligible. Each range of drivers has a "mud" region so to speak... 60hz subs, 250hz mids , 3k-5k tweets.. from my experience anyway. Ymmv

I stopped trying to perfect the final curve on a graph and listened more carefully to what sounded more natural. It's easy to spoil your hearing in a car because most other venues don't have the luxury of such bottom end lift. It's also easy to get used to something unnatural if that's the only place you spend time listening. 

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Stoopalini said:


> *....
> I think you're talking about modeling it in something like WinISD?*
> ....


Yes.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Bayboy said:


> A knee in the 200-400hz range that sounds like 40hz?  I don't know about all that.... but, here's the thing I dislike about low Q midwoofers. While they tend to be snappy and sound quick (more accurate in the midrange), they have absolutely caused problems for me in every setup in the 200-400hz range. They usually need major cuts in that range to keep from sounding too chesty. If you look at most higher Q midwoofers, they tend to have the rise starting beneath which is beneficial. That's my main concern with his setup.
> 
> 
> As far as subs being overbearing and lacking definition, slight attenuation in the 50-60hz usually cleans that up, making from 80-120hz & 40hz & under more intelligible. Each range of drivers has a "mud" region so to speak... 60hz subs, 250hz mids , 3k-5k tweets.. from my experience anyway. Ymmv
> ...


So far last night what I ended up crossover wise was, 80hz on the subs and 63hz on the flutes, both with a 12db slope. The flutes add alot of mid bass and they really just tie it all together where the bass sounds like its coming from up front.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I run the Vegas up to 100hz on a -12db Butterworth filter. I have the Wavecor 5.25" mids crossed around 120hz on Butterworth -12db, but they're sealed with an F3 around 120hz. About the most I can get from them which isn't bad. The Vegas really help out in that area whereas the Ultimax needed a good bit of coaxing to play along. It's the acoustics of the vehicle mostly. Nothing worse than getting the sub to be more linear but dulling it down to do so. 

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Bayboy said:


> I run the Vegas up to 100hz on a -12db Butterworth filter. I have the Wavecor 5.25" mids crossed around 120hz on Butterworth -12db, but they're sealed with an F3 around 120hz. About the most I can get from them which isn't bad. The Vegas really help out in that area whereas the Ultimax needed a good bit of coaxing to play along. It's the acoustics of the vehicle mostly. Nothing worse than getting the sub to be more linear but dulling it down to do so.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


So far my conclusion is they play a lot nicer with what I have, and remember that was only one I tested. And some wires were rattling on the back deck. When the cover is on, they don’t make noise but I’m going to add some more deadening to it so the whole surface is covered and put strips of deadening over the wires to hold them in place.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

CLD only helps a little with rear decks... mostly just forming a seal between trunk and cabin. You have to apply a lot to actually stop rattles.. where you'll wind up mass loading the tray. 

Butyl rope can also be of use where it can be pushed into areas to cushion where two panels meet and CLD can't be applied. 

This isn't saying to not apply CLD, just be aware of little change you might see. Rear decks just aren't meant to pump a lot of excursion through without some serious work. However, high Q woofers aren't as bad as low Q when it comes to rattles per low notes

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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

KFXGUY said:


> So far last night what I ended up crossover wise was, 80hz on the subs and 63hz on the flutes, both with a 12db slope. The flutes add alot of mid bass and they really just tie it all together where the bass sounds like its coming from up front.


I would have expected the flute to be set to a higher XO freq with a 12 dB slope…


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

KFXGUY said:


> I mean this thread has gotten a little ummm, off track I guess so I’ll post some pics for the full effect. I can tell you, my wife was hysterical. I had to calm her down. It started like this. My ac unit over flow drain was clogged and over flowed.
> 
> View attachment 311797
> 
> ...


You should shoot the mf'r that put your ac in the attic, and if your water heater is also up there, shoot 'em twice.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Holmz said:


> I would have expected the flute to be set to a higher XO freq with a 12 dB slope…


See that’s what I’ve read, but they go lower in my application than most people say they do for them. And I’ve got 4x100 on them. They are sealed off really good, but still...I’ve learned to not believe everything I read.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> See that’s what I’ve read, but they go lower in my application than most people say they do for them. And I’ve got 4x100 on them. They are sealed off really good, but still...I’ve learned to not believe everything I read.


What I've noticed is that the size of the door matters and the design. Newer 4 door small sedans like my kia rio are more sealed enclosures than they are infinite baffle. 
I had to put a foam brace to keep the outside of the door from sounding like a suv roof. 
So if your doors are sealed really food and are also small. That's most likely why you are getting the extension out of them. 
My experience with the silver flute are the same as yours. I'm ordering some right simply because I forgot about them when I sold my truck with them in it.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

KFXGUY said:


> See that’s what I’ve read, but they go lower in my application than most people say they do for them. And I’ve got 4x100 on them. They are sealed off really good, but still...I’ve learned to not believe everything I read.


This is where measurements & modeling do come into play. This isn't an attempt to sow doubt, rather to bring to light of what's actually going on to aid in tuning. Luckily, there's sources that have measured numerous drivers where we can take advantage of if measurement tools aren't available. As I've experienced before... there's a lot of examples where manufacturer's specs don't align with tested. I blame it on marketing, but we won't get into that. 

Below are a couple of pics borrowed from Zaph (wish he'd get back to testing again). Notice the difference in Fs... quite a bit from factory specs if anyone cares to look them up. I didn't bother looking up the rest as tested should be more trusted than "stated" unless there's been some discrepancies in build consistency. 




















Anyways, what I like to do is model the driver to see where excursion begins to ramp up as being in a car does not change that until it is manipulated electronically. IE.. the acoustics might change, but mechanically the driver will still operate the same. V Dickason has some good graphs on that as well. Knowing the excursion plot along with measured acoustics in the car can aid in x-over application. That is partially how I arrived at matching the Wavecor's settings. In the sealed pods (2.7 liters), their out of vehicle F3 is around 120hz... (Qtc is right around .7) which means xmax will begin to increase rapidly beneath. Since a sealed slope is generally -12db, I applied a matching BW -12db to result in -24 roll-off. Might sound counterintuitive, but the point was to clean up the bottom end before EQ that in turn gets an audibly better phase relationship with the subs as they mesh and then takeover below. This is part of an attempt to have better upfront bass. 

But enough coffee rambling... I'm just enjoying seeing someone experiment while learning. Keep up the good work!


Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

lol


Bayboy said:


> This is where measurements & modeling do come into play. This isn't an attempt to sow doubt, rather to bring to light of what's actually going on to aid in tuning. Luckily, there's sources that have measured numerous drivers where we can take advantage of if measurement tools aren't available. As I've experienced before... there's a lot of examples where manufacturer's specs don't align with tested. I blame it on marketing, but we won't get into that.
> 
> Below are a couple of pics borrowed from Zaph (wish he'd get back to testing again). Notice the difference in Fs... quite a bit from factory specs if anyone cares to look them up. I didn't bother looking up the rest as tested should be more trusted than "stated" unless there's been some discrepancies in build consistency.
> 
> ...


Well thats great info, but my approach is a little more archaic....possibly cheaper to..... what I like to do is model it in the car. How, you ask... well its actually a very risky process because if I'm not careful, I could damage something. So what I'll do is have a listen to some bass music, something I know will push things to the limit. I'll set the crossover a little high at first. Get a feel for it at higher volume. Sound good, I'll go down on the frequency and see how it like it and if it sounds good still or distorts. I'll keep going down until they no longer sound clear or the start to rattle...thats where I have to be careful...rattle is no good....you want to stay out of that zone. Then I'll play with the slope, so say it will dig pretty low but will only handle a little bit of power at lower frequencies...I'll adjust the slope in relation to that. 



I know I know....I got jokes. 

In all seriousness, this is more or less what i've been doing for now. I just wanted to make some of you cringe for a minute....in my mind tho, car audio isnt that serious to me. You try this crap with a motor, you better be prepared to suffer the consequences.... on these cheap speakers, i'm really not worried if I blow anything. 



Hey remember that rattle i mentioned earlier? Well I treated the rear deck to some more deadening last night, cut the hole out for the other woofer and installed it. I fastened the wires down that i though were rattling....well when I cut the back deck on the first hole, I mustve cut the pinch weld out. when i hooked up sub number 2....it really started rattling. I put some hondabond between them last night but I'm rethinking my decision. I think I should have just tacked it back in place with my tig welder. I think this evening that is what I'm going to do. It make break the hondabond loose later on......


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Lol I've set crossovers like that plenty of times. It works to some degree, but what I've found is that it isn't always in agreement with getting it to mesh with the sub. That sub to mid blend is a very difficult area. Phase issues can be a mofo

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> lol
> 
> Well thats great info, but my approach is a little more archaic....possibly cheaper to..... what I like to do is model it in the car. How, you ask... well its actually a very risky process because if I'm not careful, I could damage something. So what I'll do is have a listen to some bass music, something I know will push things to the limit. I'll set the crossover a little high at first. Get a feel for it at higher volume. Sound good, I'll go down on the frequency and see how it like it and if it sounds good still or distorts. I'll keep going down until they no longer sound clear or the start to rattle...thats where I have to be careful...rattle is no good....you want to stay out of that zone. Then I'll play with the slope, so say it will dig pretty low but will only handle a little bit of power at lower frequencies...I'll adjust the slope in relation to that.
> 
> ...


Damn...there is nothing wrong with any of that. That's the only way you could do it not too long ago.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> So I'm rethinking things right now. I dont really need a 750w amp on what I have. I'm thinking about buying something that wont be gross ovekill like what I have and MAYBE have a dsp built in. that would be nice. I'd like to get rid of the dayton dsp if possible. I'd prefer less components if possible. Amp suggestions maybe? without me starting ANOTHER 400+ post thread...lol


This is what I am doing. I have a Helix V EIGHT DSP mk2 on the way, scheduled for delivery on Monday. 8 channels of 75w amplification, with an additional 2 channels of pre-outs, for a total of 10 DSP controlled channels, all in one box. I plan to add rear fills, and a center speaker, so 7 channels of amplification (2 front left, 2 front right, 1 center, 2 rear fill) plus the two pre-out channels for the sub. So I'll use 9 of the 10 channels. 

I also got the Conductor controller, so I can easily switch between a single seat SQ tune (no center, minimal rear fill, TA optimized for the driver's seat), or a two seat jamming tune (center enabled, rear fill turned up, TA optimized for two seats). I'll also be able to control the sub level with the conductor. 











Per my measurements, the conductor knob will fit perfectly, right next to the window switches. It should look OEM like in there. and then I can remove the RF bass knob from under the Mode/Set buttons.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Stoopalini said:


> This is what I am doing. I have a Helix V EIGHT DSP mk2 on the way, scheduled for delivery on Monday. 8 channels of 75w amplification, with an additional 2 channels of pre-outs, for a total of 10 DSP controlled channels, all in one box. I plan to add rear fills, and a center speaker, so 7 channels of amplification (2 front left, 2 front right, 1 center, 2 rear fill) plus the two pre-out channels for the sub. So I'll use 9 of the 10 channels.
> 
> I also got the Conductor controller, so I can easily switch between a single seat SQ tune (no center, minimal rear fill, TA optimized for the driver's seat), or a two seat jamming tune (center enabled, rear fill turned up, TA optimized for two seats). I'll also be able to control the sub level with the conductor.
> 
> ...


No knobs bro....no knobs. Anywhere


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> No knobs bro....no knobs. Anywhere


This is what I am doing, not what he should do.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> This is what I am doing. I have a Helix V EIGHT DSP mk2 on the way, scheduled for delivery on Monday. 8 channels of 75w amplification, with an additional 2 channels of pre-outs, for a total of 10 DSP controlled channels, all in one box. I plan to add rear fills, and a center speaker, so 7 channels of amplification (2 front left, 2 front right, 1 center, 2 rear fill) plus the two pre-out channels for the sub. So I'll use 9 of the 10 channels.
> 
> I also got the Conductor controller, so I can easily switch between a single seat SQ tune (no center, minimal rear fill, TA optimized for the driver's seat), or a two seat jamming tune (center enabled, rear fill turned up, TA optimized for two seats). I'll also be able to control the sub level with the conductor.
> 
> ...


Man I would rock that sub control knob......that thing looks elegant. Everything else I've seen just looks cheesy. I'm going to imagine that setup costs more coin than I'm willing to spend.....


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## MattAFLiving (Aug 27, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> Man I would rock that sub control knob......that thing looks elegant. Everything else I've seen just looks cheesy. I'm going to imagine that setup costs more coin than I'm willing to spend.....


You can find that for around $200 if you talk to the right person. Since you're wanting to ditch the dayton dsp, the helix amp/dsp combos would be the perfect time to make the conversion.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> Man I would rock that sub control knob......that thing looks elegant. Everything else I've seen just looks cheesy. I'm going to imagine that setup costs more coin than I'm willing to spend.....


Ya, the entire setup isn't cheap. $1300 for the V EIGHT DSP mk2, and another $150 for the Conductor controller. But I typically only do this sort of thing once every 7 - 10 years or so LOL! Once I have a setup I like, I tend to keep it for a long time ... I really just want to bring my GTO up to par with the modern technology of current vehicles. Doing this will do that, while also freeing up my head unit replacement selection since the DSP will handle all the SQ for me. I can focus more on features (like capacitive touch screen, NAV, backup cam, wireless car play, etc, etc...) and not worry about the SQ features so much.

I'll most likely transfer the 80PRS headunit, the Toro amp, and the speakers I replaced, into my 1984 K5 blazer. This gear should feel right at home in there


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Man I would rock that sub control knob......that thing looks elegant. Everything else I've seen just looks cheesy. I'm going to imagine that setup costs more coin than I'm willing to spend.....


You literally told me I was an idiot for linking it earlier....


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> Man I would rock that sub control knob......that thing looks elegant. Everything else I've seen just looks cheesy.


Oh, and it's not really a sub control knob .. but is a controller for the ACO based DSP units (like the new Helix line). One of the functions is to control the sub level, but it does a lot more too. 

It does require an ACO based DSP to function though.

Here's a video SkizeR made on an install he did with it:


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Ok. Wow. Let me just say, these subs are a huge improvement. They play every note I need them to. They actually hit pretty hard too, I listened to a few problem songs I had before that just had absence in some bass notes. It was weird. I’m about to let it do an auto tune on the dsp and see how that goes. I barely have to take any out at 40hz and had to add 3db from 20-35hz. I’m impressed and wish I would have started with these.


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## RyuTsuiSen (Jan 26, 2018)

Glad you found something that works for you!

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> Ok. Wow. Let me just say, these subs are a huge improvement. They play every note I need them to. They actually hit pretty hard too, I listened to a few problem songs I had before that just had absence in some bass notes. It was weird. I’m about to let it do an auto tune on the dsp and see how that goes. I barely have to take any out at 40hz and had to add 3db from 20-35hz. I’m impressed and wish I would have started with these.


Nice! I can’t wait to see what the frequency response looks like on the RTA.

You’re giving me hope man LOL


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Ok this is what it came up with. I’m not sure what the tall thin line is but the red and blue are no correction and the thick black line is correction. Much better than the other subs. 












I’m not gonna lie, I really had to talk myself into liking the other subs and then after having a little time playing different songs, I realized it was missing bass notes in areas and it wasn’t acceptable. I’ve been in the car for about 30 mins trying to find a song that they don’t like, and I haven’t. Before I’m 100% on them let me have a little more time, but from what I’ve heard so far, these are what I should have bought. I have the subs crossed at 63hz -12 slope and the flutes pick up at 63hz on a -12db, they blend together 1000% better than before….at least that’s what my ears are telling me.

o yea. They blend nicely. I’m listening to a really strong bass song and they just compliment each other. So I can cut the subs off, and listen to the flutes and they have some good bass on their own….then I turn the subs in and the mid bass gets stronger but like it’s coming from the flutes then of course they drop a little lower and pick up where the flutes leave off. I’m digging it so far! Thanks bayboy for the recommendation of these subs. I think these are what I was looking for.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Congratulations!


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Grinder said:


> Congratulations!


That may be the most accurate meme ever!


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

KFXGUY said:


> Ok this is what it came up with. I’m not sure what the tall thin line is but the red and blue are no correction and the thick black line is correction. Much better than the other subs.
> 
> 
> View attachment 312022
> ...


You're welcome & glad you find them of use. We all tend to get caught up in marketing trends and admittedly, that has been the result for me. I just so happened to stumble upon some erroneously spec'd subs that worked better than ones that should have been superior. 

Thank goodness for the DATS not only for revealing that, but reminding me of how much cabin gain exists and should be utilized. The crazy part is that's the tactic I've preferred for years when choosing sealed subs (dovetail F3). Dayton Reference HO 10" has been my favorite for years.  Yeah.... guess I'm a bone head at times. 

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> Ok this is what it came up with. I’m not sure what the tall thin line is but the red and blue are no correction and the thick black line is correction. Much better than the other subs.
> 
> 
> View attachment 312022


Where is that chart coming from? Is it from the Dayton DSP, or maybe some measurement you took using your phone's built in mic, or maybe is it just a modeled graph?

What I meant by being excited to see the frequency response, is when you get the calibration mic and can take some frequency sweep and pink noise response readings. That'll be nice to see


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Where is that chart coming from? Is it from the Dayton DSP, or maybe some measurement you took using your phone's built in mic, or maybe is it just a modeled graph?
> 
> What I meant by being excited to see the frequency response, is when you get the calibration mic and can take some frequency sweep and pink noise response readings. That'll be nice to see


The Dayton dsp has its own compensation and it’s calibrated for an iPhone mic. It sends a few test tones then a frequency sweep and measures it then it corrects it for liner, boomy and something else. Linear sounded better so that’s what I ended up with.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Ok. Everyone left so I got to be a big kid and crank it up. Yea. These are what I was looking for. I listened to a wide variety of music and they did better than I expected. My son drove up and listened and he’s Impressed. He wants the same sub in his 2015 Genesis. So yea, I’m happy. The whole setup sounds better than any system I’ve ever owned. I’m pretty confident about it now.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

I was considering taking the rear tweets out and giving those to my kid. I gotta put some crossovers on the rear flutes so I’m stealing some crossovers from some mb quart separates I have I’m not using. I think this may round out my system and complete it for now. Although I was thinking about putting the tang bands in the rear quarter panels. I’m truly interested in seeing how they would work back there. I’ve got something to take care of today so I’m not sure if I can get to it. I bet those tangs would add to it.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Alright. I have my answer. No. They do not like free air as much as the flutes. They have about the same bass but don’t go as loud and don’t saline as good. I put the back deck on just now. So far no rattles. Woohoo


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Ya, the Tang Bands are subs, with efficiency rating of 83dB. So I imagine they wouldn't do well in the side panels without an enclosure. 

The flutes are mids with a higher sensitivity and a higher frequency response range, right?

Here are the specs on the Tang Bands:











I modeled them in WinISD with a 11l (about 1/3 cu/ft) sealed enclosure, and got the following:










At the time, I was thinking of using them for mid bass, but never pursued it.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Ya, the Tang Bands are subs, with efficiency rating of 83dB. So I imagine they wouldn't do well in the side panels without an enclosure.
> 
> The flutes are mids with a higher sensitivity and a higher frequency response range, right?
> 
> ...


Yea I know, but I had put them in the back deck and they seemed to do better with bass than in the side panels. I just wanted to see if they would add any more bass and mid bass but they didn’t. Just wanted to see. I have them already do why not. Now I know. They would probably sound much better in some boxes.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Little update if anyone cares. I was off work today and rode around most of the day in the car. I finally have a good assessment of how I feel about the Vegas. They are awesome. They beat really hard for a set of 8’s. I remember a few people saying 8’s (especially in infinite baffle) would not satisfy, or perform well or get loud. Well I’m my opinion, that’s wrong. Very wrong. I’m extremely impressed with how they sound and perform. I’m glad I took a chance on them.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

That's good to hear. Thanks for following up. 

I suppose we'll soon hear how that is impossible and you're completely wrong.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> Little update if anyone cares. I was off work today and rode around most of the day in the car. I finally have a good assessment of how I feel about the Vegas. They are awesome. They beat really hard for a set of 8’s. I remember a few people saying 8’s (especially in infinite baffle) would not satisfy, or perform well or get loud. Well I’m my opinion, that’s wrong. Very wrong. I’m extremely impressed with how they sound and perform. I’m glad I took a chance on them.


Glad to hear! Like all things audio, trade offs are the name of the game. I'm glad we were wrong about it to make your life easier.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Post up some of those RTA graphs ...


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

I’m not finished dialing things in yet, and learning how to use this but here you go.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> I’m not finished dialing things in yet, and learning how to use this but here you go.
> 
> View attachment 312511


Well...that does not look right. Did you get a Mic? Or is that just your phone mic? If it's just your phone mic then you will need to grab a measurement microphone. I use the audiofrog set up just I like it. They all work about the same.
The reason I say it doesn't look right is because *30 to *40 is about what....10 or 12 dB down from 65 or 70? That wouldn't sound good. It's what used to be called a one note wonder and that is not the sound you described.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Ok I messed around with it a little more. I need more eq bands to be honest.
Without subs 











And turning subs on but the level was low


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

When you use that iMM6 mic and adapter cable, be sure you open the app 1st, and start up the RTA ... then plug the adapter cable/extension/mic combo in after it's already going. If you plug the cable and mic in 1st, then open the app .. .it tends to default to the iPhone's integrated mic for some reason. 

I would expect the RTA to show values at 16k and above.

Also, did you grab the calibration file from Dayton and load it into AudioTools? If not, the measurements will be off. 

Here is the cal file for the mic you have: Calibration File for 99-41626 iMM6 Mic

You load it though the feature in "Utilities" then "Files". Once on that screen in the app, then go to your computer and access the URL shown in the AudioTools screen and drag/drop the cal file into the calibration folder. Thart will copy it from your computer to your iPhone. 

Then in AudioTools, go to "Settings", then "Microphone Setup", click the little 'i', and then the text "Cal File" art the bottom. And you can apply the calibration file to your measurements for the iMM6 mic. 

You only need to load the cal file once, and it'll stick for all future uses.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Stoopalini said:


> When you use that iMM6 mic and adapter cable, be sure you open the app 1st, and start up the RTA ... then plug the adapter cable/extension/mic combo in after it's already going. If you plug the cable and mic in 1st, then open the app .. .it tends to default to the iPhone's integrated mic for some reason.
> 
> I would expect the RTA to show values at 16k and above.
> 
> ...


That's what I thinking too. It looks like the mic itself is rolling off at 10k and 60. 
I mean if that graph is correct then 🤷 dude just needs to settle in on a good 2 way. 
Why even use whispers with 6.5 inch midbass. Just get a good tweeter. Yeesh


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> When you use that iMM6 mic and adapter cable, be sure you open the app 1st, and start up the RTA ... then plug the adapter cable/extension/mic combo in after it's already going. If you plug the cable and mic in 1st, then open the app .. .it tends to default to the iPhone's integrated mic for some reason.
> 
> I would expect the RTA to show values at 16k and above.
> 
> ...


I wasn’t aware that I needed to do this, I’ll do this and run it again.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

And are you using bluetooth to play pink noise? If so, don't. Might be the cause of the upper end roll off.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

DaveG said:


> And are you using bluetooth to play pink noise? If so, don't. Might be the cause of the upper end roll off.


Yes. Well that was white noise. Pink noise is worse on the upper end. So how should I play it? I can’t play my phone through the cable because the mic is plugged in.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Thumb drive or CD


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Yes. Well that was white noise. Pink noise is worse on the upper end. So how should I play it? I can’t play my phone through the cable because the mic is plugged in.


Pink is what you should be using. White is not gonna do it. 
This sums it up so you do t have to click a link...


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> Yes. Well that was white noise. Pink noise is worse on the upper end. So how should I play it? I can’t play my phone through the cable because the mic is plugged in.


Always use pink noise, or your going to have zero in the treble range. The reason it look better is in the post above. Your tweeter level needs to severely come up if those measurements are with white noise.
I also echo the need for a calibrated mic. I also use the AF mic because of its ease of use.
Also, what is your typical choice of music? And what file format do you use?


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Calibrated the mic using the file. Redid it. I used pink noise.

the adjustments were off from what I came up with last night. Still isn’t a smooth curve. I’ll have to mess with it some more later.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

I have Thomas on ignore, but I saw his post when I wasn’t logged in about just doing a two way with some good tweets. I have these I could put in there but I don’t have crossovers. I’d have to pick some up.






Power 1" Tweeter Kit | Rockford Fosgate ®


The T1T-S is an audiophile 1” fabric dome tweeter kit rated at 75 Watts RMS for fanatics preferring this type of tonal quality. The kit includes two tweeters with dedicated crossovers, trim rings, and mounting hardware.




rockfordfosgate.com


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Guys, he has a calibration mic ... it's the Dayton iMM-6



KFXGUY said:


> Yes. Well that was white noise. Pink noise is worse on the upper end. So how should I play it? I can’t play my phone through the cable because the mic is plugged in.


The iMM-6 mic has a female 1/8" stereo headphone jack built into it. This is the phone's audio output when the lightening to 1/8" adapter is plugged in. You can use a 1/8" stereo cable, and plug it into the jack on the mic itself, then run it to the aux in of your head unit.

You definitely don't want to use white noise nor bluetooth to capture accurate frequency response with the RTA. 

You're getting there man


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

KFXGUY said:


> I have Thomas on ignore, but I saw his post when I wasn’t logged in about just doing a two way with some good tweets. I have these I could put in there but I don’t have crossovers. I’d have to pick some up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He means no harm but I get it! If only you had a DSP! LOL Couldn't pass it up! I guess I'll be over in the corner with Thomas!


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

DaveG said:


> He means no harm but I get it! If only you had a DSP! LOL Couldn't pass it up! I guess I'll be over in the corner with Thomas!


I unignored him because finally he’s trying to kinda be helpful. If he starts annoying me again I’ll just turn it back on.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Calibrated the mic using the file. Redid it. I used pink noise.
> 
> the adjustments were off from what I came up with last night. Still isn’t a smooth curve. I’ll have to mess with it some more later.
> View attachment 312525


Why don't you spend 100 bucks on the alpines. 
That looks a little harsh, a little shouty most likely...and the bass has to be better than that based on your thoughts about how they sound.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> I unignored him because finally he’s trying to kinda be helpful. If he starts annoying me again I’ll just turn it back on.


Awwww I knew you'd be back....


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

Just as a reminder, this is the layout of his system ... there should be no lacking of highs and/or mid range in the car. 










I think the bluetooth signal, as well as using white noise, are both throwing the measurements way off.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Just as a reminder, this is the layout of his system ... there should be no lacking of highs and/or mid range in the car.
> 
> View attachment 312543
> 
> ...


yea I’ll have to pull the radio to get to the aux input. Unless they make a 3.5mm headline jack to usb. I’ll have to check. On the last one I used pink noise instead of white. Now with the mic calibration the white noise is much higher reading on the higher hz level.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Why don't you spend 100 bucks on the alpines.
> That looks a little harsh, a little shouty most likely...and the bass has to be better than that based on your thoughts about how they sound.


What alpines? I already have the punch units tho…..you like spending my money for me don’t you? Lol


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

KFXGUY said:


> yea I’ll have to pull the radio to get to the aux input. Unless they make a 3.5mm headline jack to usb. I’ll have to check. On the last one I used pink noise instead of white. Now with the mic calibration the white noise is much higher reading on the higher hz level.


And make sure your pink noise is correlated (mono) too


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## maybebigfootisblurr (Nov 4, 2011)

Stoopalini said:


> Here is the cal file for the mic you have: Calibration File for 99-41626 iMM6 Mic


Cal files are not interchangeable like that. He needs the cal file specific to his mic's serial number.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> What alpines? I already have the punch units tho…..you like spending my money for me don’t you? Lol


Right...thos are just tweeters though right? 
You would still need a lowpass on the silverflutes that acoustically Match and have a nice phase relationship. If your gonna use network mode with those and the flutes though...just do that. 
The alpine are a plug and play set. They sound great. I've sat inside of award winning vehicles. These alpines are the best thing I've ever heard for a 100 dollars. 
I'm trying to save you money man. You just bought a set of tweeters for around 100 bucks with no idea how they are gonna work with the flutes. 
You could have an entirely new set of components that are on the level as the punch tweeters.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

These are the alpines. I just realized you were still ignoring me when I posted that. 









Alpine S-S65C


S-Series 6-1/2" component speaker system




www.crutchfield.com


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)




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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Right...thos are just tweeters though right?
> You would still need a lowpass on the silverflutes that acoustically Match and have a nice phase relationship. If your gonna use network mode with those and the flutes though...just do that.
> The alpine are a plug and play set. They sound great. I've sat inside of award winning vehicles. These alpines are the best thing I've ever heard for a 100 dollars.
> I'm trying to save you money man. You just bought a set of tweeters for around 100 bucks with no idea how they are gonna work with the flutes.
> You could have an entirely new set of components that are on the level as the punch tweeters.


Nah, I’ve been having the punch tweets. They were free when I was a tester for Fosgate I was sent the whole component set.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

miniSQ said:


> View attachment 312561


Thanks!!!


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Nah, I’ve been having the punch tweets. They were free when I was a tester for Fosgate I was sent the whole component set.


Ah...order the pines man. If you don't like them I'll buy them from you. Full retail.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

I've never personally liked any of the newer Fosgate stuff. They're okay, but not worth the price imo


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

I’m gonna try something else before spending more money. I put some resistors on the tweets because they were too bright but now everything else is starting to fall in line, I barely hear them. I’m gonna bypass the resistors.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

KFXGUY said:


> I’m gonna try something else before spending more money. I put some resistors on the tweets because they were too bright but now everything else is starting to fall in line, I barely hear them. I’m gonna bypass the resistors.


I would say that is probably a good idea. Or try a lower value. The tweeter range looks like it needs to be brought up ~4db or so


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Right...thos are just tweeters though right?
> You would still need a lowpass on the silverflutes that acoustically Match and have a nice phase relationship. If your gonna use network mode with those and the flutes though...just do that.
> The alpine are a plug and play set. They sound great. I've sat inside of award winning vehicles. These alpines are the best thing I've ever heard for a 100 dollars.
> I'm trying to save you money man. You just bought a set of tweeters for around 100 bucks with no idea how they are gonna work with the flutes.
> You could have an entirely new set of components that are on the level as the punch tweeters.


thanks for the offer. I’ve got the flutes crossed at 120hz on the low end and 5500hz on the high end.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> I would say that is probably a good idea. Or try a lower value. The tweeter range looks like it needs to be brought up ~4db or so


Yea that’s about what the resistor killed. It’s sounding better now. It keeps getting better and better. I bypassed the resistor and got some high end back.










And here’s my dumpster fire eq curve.


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

Rather than pulling the head unit, can you just burn pink noise to a cd?


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

maybebigfootisblurr said:


> Cal files are not interchangeable like that. He needs the cal file specific to his mic's serial number.


That is the serial number of the mic he has. I sent him the mic.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

SQ_Bronco said:


> Rather than pulling the head unit, can you just burn pink noise to a cd?


My unit is void of a CD player. Who burns cds anymore?  I actually could put it on a memory stick and plug it in the usb input on the radio which I have external mounted.

does that curve look any better with the tweets back on all the way?


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> View attachment 312569


Do you have any processing switched on in your head unit, like bass boost, or some sort of bass enhancement ... or "Loudness", etc ...?

If so, you need to switch it off when tuning the system. Just the EQ enabled, but no signal enhancements like loudness or bass enhancers.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> Do you have any processing switched on in your head unit, like bass boost, or some sort of bass enhancement ... or "Loudness", etc ...?
> 
> If so, you need to switch it off when tuning the system. Just the EQ enabled, but no signal enhancements like loudness or bass enhancers.


Yea I have the loudness on


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> Yea I have the loudness on


Yoooo...
Dsp deal of the year....








SOLD: Helix Mini Dsp


Selling a used Helix Mini Dsp I bought this year but never got around to using. Just the unit no cables, accessories, or factory box. Asking $320 shipped to the lower 48. PayPal fees included.




www.diymobileaudio.com




Has everything you wanted. Just needs the high level input harness.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Yoooo...
> Dsp deal of the year....
> 
> 
> ...


Thx. I actually saw that for sale the other day. I’m not looking to add any more equipment to this car. I’m not as serious about it as you guys, and that’s ok. I’ll make due with what I have. After recalibrating the mic and retuning it, it sounds great to my ears. It’s super loud and clear and the higher end is much better. I listened to a song last night that’s been plaguing me with harsh sounding highs and it sounded much much better. Before I’d either switch songs or turn the volume down, now it handles it loud and clear. Using the mic has helped it tremendously.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

In my limited experience I've always found that, depending on the particular system, tune/adjustments and environment as a whole, some recordings and/or genres will sound awful while others will sound much better. Substantially improve the sound of a recording and/or genre that formerly sounded awful, and suddenly many recordings and/or genres that formerly sounded good may now sound awful.

I've never been a fan of the "what the artist intended" approach to music reproduction. If I don't like how it sounds, no matter if I think what I'm hearing is what the artist intended or simply the shortcomings of the system, I'll try to adjust it to my liking.

In the end, I try to find a happy medium where known good recordings sound good ...and crappy recordings still sound crappy. LOL


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Grinder said:


> In my limited experience I've always found that, depending on the particular system, tune/adjustments and environment as a whole, some recordings and/or genres will sound awful while others will sound much better. Substantially improve the sound of a recording and/or genre that formerly sounded awful, and suddenly many recordings and/or genres that formerly sounded good may now sound awful.
> 
> I've never been a fan of the "what the artist intended" approach to music reproduction. If I don't like how it sounds, no matter if I think what I'm hearing is what the artist intended or simply the shortcomings of the system, I'll try to adjust it to my liking.
> 
> In the end, I try to find a happy medium where known good recordings sound good ...and crappy recordings still sound crappy. LOL


Well if the song I’m referring to sounds fine in my truck but sounded crappy in my car, that tells me something is wrong in the car, right?


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KFXGUY said:


> Well if the song I’m referring to sounds fine in my truck but sounded crappy in my car, that tells me something is wrong in the car, right?


Maybe so. Maybe not. Perhaps your truck system as a whole happens to favor that song, while another song may sound better in your car than in your truck.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Country music only sounds good in trucks.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> Yea I have the loudness on


id recommend turning the loudness off when tuning. Once you get a nice curve on the RTA, then switch it on and see what you think.

The loudness will mess with the EQ curve.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Holmz said:


> Country music only sounds good in trucks.


Correction: Only country music sounds good in trucks.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

What I like to do (I'm sure it's unorthodox), is tune to a usual curve (most are quite similar), but lean out the bottom just tad... just enough that the system can achieve maximum output without or just a tiny hint of distortion depending on the track, of course. My reason is so that I can still use loudness for a slight boost at lower volumes on with artists & eras that play on the lean side, or I can disengage it for bass heavy genres (yes I still like bass music.. stop judging me ). If there's tracks that are on the extreme ends, I'll hit an EQ preset. 

Keep in mind, none of this happens often but at least the option is there while a happy medium is found. A lot of this depends on the type of music you listen to.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Well I’d rather not say what kind of music I listen to but I’ll say I just never grew out of listening to the same kind of bass heavy, vulgar trash I listened to as a kid. My wife often asks me how old I am still playing with stereos, Rc car/boats and race cars. O And guns too. Lol.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Stoopalini said:


> id recommend turning the loudness off when tuning. Once you get a nice curve on the RTA, then switch it on and see what you think.
> 
> The loudness will mess with the EQ curve.


I’ll redo it when I can.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Grinder said:


> In my limited experience I've always found that, depending on the particular system, tune/adjustments and environment as a whole, some recordings and/or genres will sound awful while others will sound much better. Substantially improve the sound of a recording and/or genre that formerly sounded awful, and suddenly many recordings and/or genres that formerly sounded good may now sound awful.
> 
> I've never been a fan of the "what the artist intended" approach to music reproduction. If I don't like how it sounds, no matter if I think what I'm hearing is what the artist intended or simply the shortcomings of the system, I'll try to adjust it to my liking.
> 
> In the end, I try to find a happy medium where known good recordings sound good ...and crappy recordings still sound crappy. LOL


That's "accurate".


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

ckirocz28 said:


> That's "accurate".


"Accurate" is truly a wonderful thing when it's a good recording ...and "accurate" can take a flying leap when it's a crappy recording, or if "what the artist intended" is not to my liking.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Yoooo...
> Dsp deal of the year....
> 
> 
> ...


It actually seems to only have 4 inputs. I want 6 in, 6-8 or 10 out.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

KFXGUY said:


> It actually seems to only have 4 inputs. I want 6 in, 6-8 or 10 out.


If you don't mind the conductor remote, you could get away with 2 or 4 inputs; as the conductor can control sub levels as well as the rear stage levels independently. I know you didn't want a sub knob, and I agree most look tacky ... but this thing looks really good installed next to the window switches.

It's $150, so not that bad ... The LED lights are user configurable too. I configured it with blue LEDs for sub control, and green LEDs for rear level control.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Bro....








Sold CDT Unity 8.0. 2” Hybrid Wideband mid-tweeter


For sale: $100 plus actual shipping (shipping from 95112 or local pick up) Pair of CDT unity 8.0 ( not refurbished) Unity8.0 2” driver- Technical specs and contents Unity8.0 Diaphragm: Aluminum Surround: Rubber Basket: Die cast Magnet: Ring Neodymium Impedance: 4 ohms Sensitivity: 84.9 dB...




www.diymobileaudio.com


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

They gone bro....they gone 😔 why won't you let us help you? Why?


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> They gone bro....they gone 😔 why won't you let us help you? Why?


Dang it! Ida bought em too


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## RyuTsuiSen (Jan 26, 2018)

You can still buy the refurbished units for 150 on their website if you didn't know.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Grinder said:


> "Accurate" is truly a wonderful thing when it's a good recording ...and "accurate" can take a flying leap when it's a crappy recording, or if "what the artist intended" is not to my liking.


Tell me about it. Some of the 1970's rock bands have really horrible recordings right up to the mid 1980's. (Joan Jett, AC/DC, etc.)


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

ckirocz28 said:


> Tell me about it. Some of the 1970's rock bands have really horrible recordings right up to the mid 1980's. (Joan Jett, AC/DC, etc.)


You think those are bad....some of my Favorite songs are rap songs from 1990 to around 95. Not Tupac or Boyz in thr hood. Those are ok. But UGK ....No Limit stuff....the early cash money....
Early field mob....literally recorded in a closet.....sounded fine back then...


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## kevski- (Jan 21, 2018)

Damn, I spent my whole day of work reading this entire thread. I was was following up on those Audiofile eBay subs. Glad those Vegas worked out for you man.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

kevski- said:


> Damn, I spent my whole day of work reading this entire thread. I was was following up on those Audiofile eBay subs. Glad those Vegas worked out for you man.


Yea I hate that I wasted money on the audiophiles but it is what it is. The Vegas have made me very happy.


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

So ... just some more info to add to this thread ... I finally received my NVX XAD21 amp to power the Vega's I installed in the rear deck (using the adapters KFXGUY printed for me), with hopes of having them be able to replace the 12" sub box in my trunk and reclaim the space ... and I gotta say, @KFXGUY wasn't wrong in his assessment of these speakers in this car!

They seriously over delivered against my expectations.

So here is a graph of my system response using pink noise, with the 12" sealed RF sub in the trunk::










And here is a graph of my system response using pink noise, with the two 8" Vegas instead of the 12" RF sub:










And here they are overlaid on each other:











Keep in mind, this is without any specific tuning for the 8s, as I ran out of time to do any more today.

When I finally got everything mounted and operational, I simply used a DMM to set the NVX amp at 250w (4ohm), and then moved the RCA wires from the Rockford Fosgate P300-12 powered sub enclosure, over to the NVX amp with the Vega 8's attached.

I didn't adjust the EQ at all for the 8s, so the Helix channels driving the sub output still have the EQ settings which I setup for the sealed 12. I did adjust the Helix V8 channel levels to try and match the overall level of the 8s to be the same as the 12" sub though.

I do believe after some proper EQ tuning sessions, these 8s in the rear deck will out perform the sealed 12 in the trunk


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

I’m glad you like em. I kinda haven’t been on here since I installed them and the unitys. Kinda think I’m done with my stereo as it sounds really good and even tho I had 10+ years of install experience, I leaned a few things. Even tho I don’t install anymore. Well, maybe for my kids cars and mine but I no longer do it professionally. I have to say I’ve never heard infinite baffle sound like this. With a set of 8’s in some plastic adapters at that! Thanks to all who helped!


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

That peak around 40hz is a function of Fs & Qts of the sub. Cutting that a little with a fairly narrow Q will not only smooth out the response, but also deepen it slightly as peaks mask frequencies above & below. 

On the flip side, that free natural boost aids in "desirable" bass that most like when listening to older genres like pop. 

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Bayboy said:


> That peak around 40hz is a function of Fs & Qts of the sub. Cutting that a little with a fairly narrow Q will not only smooth out the response, but also deepen it slightly as peaks mask frequencies above & below.
> 
> On the flip side, that free natural boost aids in "desirable" bass that most like when listening to older genres like pop.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


You know, I must say, i'm very glad you turned me on to these subs....they perform unbelievably well. thanks again!


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