# Head Unit? We Don't Need No Stinking Head Unit



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

I spent way too long this weekend figuring out how to do Prologic II in the car, and during the process I managed to collect some info on how to eliminate the need for a head unit in the car.

Thought this info might be useful for people, so here ya go!

The first way to eliminate the head unit is fairly obvious. Download crap to your phone, turn on Bluetooth, and stream it to your stock head unit.

There are a couple of downsides to this option. First, Bluetooth is compressed. Second, your stuck with your stock amps. The speakers are fairly simple to replace of course.

I've told this story a hundred times, but here goes again:
I'm a big fan of keeping my stock stereo. I ripped out the stock system in an Accord I purchased fourteen years back, and the system I installed was so byzantine and ugly, it rendered the car un-sellable. I literally gave the car away.

Due to that, every system I've done since then is 100% separate from the stock system.

If you want to go that route, you can use an Android or iPhone, which connects to your processors, which connect to your amps.

Up until recently, I have personally used an RCA cable to connect to my processors. Bluetooth has come a long way though; I personally cannot tell the difference between the Bluetooth connection in my car and the RCA connection. If I'm not mistaken, my Bluetooth is compressed, which yields a bitrate of 352 kbps. ( Audio quality of bluetooth aptX - News and Articles - SoundExpert )

One thing that sucks about this setup is that it's compressed. Even worse, I listen to a lot of compressed recordings. So we're actually compressing it TWICE. (You have an MP3 that's compressed, the mp3 software on your phone uncompresses the mp3 data to an audio stream. Then the audio stream is fed to a bluetooth app on the phone, which REcompresses the audio, sends it out over the air, where's it's picked up by the Bluetooth receiver and decoded back into an audio stream.)

The obvious solution would be to keep the stream in MP3 format, and transmit that over the air. I'm not knowledgeable enough about Bluetooth to say why this isn't done. But I'm certain that it's NOT done, as APTX and MP3 are two entirely different codes.

TLDR : _It's kind of amazing that Bluetooth sounds as good as it does, because there's a whole lotta compression going on._

*Due to that, the obvious solution is to run lossless.*

Apple's Airplay can do lossless. This is because it doesn't transmit over Bluetooth, it transmits over WiFi. 802.11N WiFi has a bandwidth of 600Mbps.
BTW, this is complete overkill for lossless stereo; this is enough bandwidth for something like 500 uncompressed audio streams. A compact disc requires 1.4Mbit/s! (https://cs.marlboro.edu/term/fall04/acoustics/bandwidth.txt)


I'm not a huge fan of the Airplay solution for a couple of reasons. First, it means you have to use an iPad or an iPhone for a source. Second, you have to hack up an Airplay unit to get it to work in a car. ( http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...n/162760-airport-express-w-optical-out-3.html )

If you're already an Apple user, the Airplay option looks decent, and costs less than $200. So, this is a cheaper option than a nice head unit, it doesn't require you to chop up your car, and it gives you the convenience of having all your music on your phone.


But if you're an Android guy like me, keep reading...

First, get yourself a phone or tablet that does Bluetooth 4.0. I'm using a "ZTE ZMAX" which is available at every WalMart for $180.
Second, get yourself a Bluetooth receiver than can do APTX lossless. There are dozens on eBay and Amazon for around $50. Here's one : http://www.amazon.com/AGPtEK®-Wirel...717&sr=8-6&keywords=agptek+bluetooth+receiver

By going this route, we can avoid a series of compression steps. For instance, you can put FLAC files on your Android (uncompressed), broadcast them over Bluetooth using APTX Uncompressed, which is received by the Bluetooth decoder and sent to your DAC via an optical connection.

By going this route you're eliminating a series of digital to analog conversions, and more importantly, you're eliminating the MP3 compression and the APTX compression.

On a side note, _I was skeptical about Bluetooth for a long-ass time._ I was an early adopter of Bluetooth and it sounded like ass. There was no treble, no bass, and it sounded worse than Skype. As I understand it, the reason that Bluetooth became so good is because the bandwidth was ramped up dramatically. Basically BT wasn't designed for audio, it was designed for peripherals, like wireless mice. "Bluetooth 4.0 promises speeds similar to Bluetooth 3.0 of up to 25Mbps. Both Bluetooth 4.0 and Wi-Fi Direct use the 802.11 networking standard to reach their maximum speeds. " http://www.pcworld.com/article/208778/Wi_Fi_Direct_vs_Bluetooth_4_0_A_Battle_for_Supremacy.html

Unless I'm missing something, this gets you very close to the ideal of having a digital connection from source to DAC. We are transmitting a digital uncompressed stream. The only difference is that we're doing it over the air instead of over a piece of glass.


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## 000zero (Mar 12, 2011)

This is an interesting idea. I have been thinking about how I to play HiRes audio in my car. What I have done so far is use my FIIO E17, feeding into the analog input of my stock stereo, from my HTC One M9. I can only get it to do 16 bits @ 44kHz from my phone though. I can get 24 bits @ 96kHz if hook up my laptop but that is a pain. My phone supports BT 4.0 so I wonder if this may be a way for me to use my phone as a source without using a wire.

Sad thing is even if I can get 96kHz or above my MiniDSP is going to downsample it to 48kHz....


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## Focused4door (Aug 15, 2015)

Patrick Bateman said:


> But if you're an Android guy like me, keep reading...
> 
> First, get yourself a phone or tablet that does Bluetooth 4.0. I'm using a "ZTE ZMAX" which is available at every WalMart for $180.
> Second, get yourself a Bluetooth receiver than can do APTX lossless. There are dozens on eBay and Amazon for around $50. Here's one : http://www.amazon.com/AGPtEK®-Wirel...717&sr=8-6&keywords=agptek+bluetooth+receiver


Are any of the car audio amplifiers that have built in blue tooth using 4.0?


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

You can do AirPlay all day long from an android device as well I believe. Explore the google play store for AirPlay. Just FYI. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jolathe (Feb 22, 2010)

I made a flac file player from a Raspberry Pi and a cheap usb DAC that I've been using in my truck that I like a lot. A few hundred flac files are on a 32 GB usb stick. The Pi has a usb wireless adaptor. The whole thing is powered by a micro-usb charger plugged into the cigarette lighter. I run mpd on the Pi, connect to it using the wireless on my phone, control it using an app on my phone. The DAC is plugged into the aux input on my factory stereo. I think it sounds better than playing CDs, maybe the DAC is better than the factory one.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

I could have used this a month ago but luckily my new head unit plays flac straight off an sd card. Would have definitly been some thing I'd have been intersted in.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

the new massive dsp streams APTX bluetooth.. pretty nice feature


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Will something like this solve the issue? They claim it has a decompression processor called clari FI, it comes with a remote for the wifi streaming, phone calls other modes and clari FI feature 




Infinity Kappa K5 5-channel car amplifier with BluetoothÂ® connection â€” 75 watts RMS x 4 at 4 ohms + 350 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms at Crutchfield.com


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

if they'd just put a 5 band parametric equalizer and time alignment on each channel, they'd have a winner there...

I see an upgrade port, and a telephony? port?

the chip that makes clari-Fi possible may have extra processing ability, even if it just made a left/right time alignment like the Front Row by Kicker, available it would be just about right.

I know a lot of tweaker studs can't handle the truth, but reality says that a 5 channel amp with 75W on the highs and 350W on the sub, is a pretty punchy setup.

give me that bluetooth connectivity and throw in a little DSP action for slopes, parametric fix, levels...

then gift it with the clari-Fi circuit, (based on some sound science) and handle it with a remote that slips under the seat or in the door if you like that, left handed controls...

haha...


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## madcowintucson (May 21, 2015)

I have been doing this for years. I had this working on my note 2 back in the day. Use any device with aptx and stream it to a Bluetooth to optical converter that I got mine at best buy the rocket fish one and it's aptx ready. Then just pipe optical into my behringer deq and dcx. **** sounds ****ing fantastic and got rid of all my noise issues from my cables I had before lol. I stream all my milk and slacker that way. Sounds fantastic.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I know a lot of people that want to go headless in boats, UTV, golf carts, etc. Thanks again Patrick!


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## SnotBubbles4You (Aug 8, 2015)

Thanks for the info, with a future upgrade I want to do this hopefully.


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## Navy Chief (Jun 14, 2010)

This post is exactly what I have been looking for. I have been trying to find an easy way to use the mhl port on my Sony Xperia Z phone to feed digital signal into my Alpine H700 as well as my factory head unit via line output converter.

If I can have a Bluetooth signal of similar quality as a cd or mhl/hdmi connector, then why not. This is so much cleaner of an install also.

What are you thoughts on this unit.

http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-SongSt...catcorr&keywords=bluetooth+4+receiver+optical

I like seeing items with lots of reviews if possible and I trust the Belkin name.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Good idea Patrick. Have you also considered going the wired route and using an MHL dongle/hdmi extractor for the audio side and a BT connection to the any BT head unit for display and media control. It'll give you everything your idea has plus the added functionality and convenience. I can't say for sure it will work with Android but it works fine with Apple and their Digital AV adapter. Bing used that concept recently in the build I linked below. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/214721-copper-madness-2015-prius-v-illusion-focal-alpine-gz-tru-jbl.html

A really cool thing about it is that your phone calls and prompts are outputted to the BT side of things. Eliminating them from the amplified SQ music source. So you won't get blasted with a full scale ding.

I've been looking into it and it seems like it can be taken one step further by integrating a BT phone call/head unit sources into the active music without it affecting the digital stream quality going to the DSP from the phone.

It involves using an EMU-0404USB proaudio mixer which comes with multiple analog and digital I/O and mixes them all together to output either a variable/fixed high quality analog out or a Digital Toslink/Coax output. When you are listening to the SQ phone source, the radio won't be outputting anything into the mixer. But when you get a call or want to listen to say FM, the head unit will naturally pause the phone through BT and the only audio going to the mixer will be that lower quality source. You'll still get analog noise into the mixer from the head unit source but, it should be completely benign since that source will likely or can be attenuated enough to make it no louder than dither in a digital track. 

Also since that source can be attenuated from either the head unit or the input pot on the mixer you can adjust its volume relative to the fixed digital input so it won't be too loud. It'll just be proportionately lower than the SQ source. 

I have never tried this idea but it looks solid based on the EMU's manual. The only thing you have to deal with is pressing a button on the mixer to activate the output each time it turns on. I'm sure there some easy way to design a circuit to do that on power up each time. Oh and a high quality passive transformer LOC will be needed to be able to feed the mixer if you are using an OEM head unit in order to keep that analog noise down when playing the phone SQ source.

I hope to try it some day. Anyways, hope that helps.


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## BlueGhost (Jul 28, 2014)

I'm doing this in my 65 F100, I didn't want to install a head unit. I'm using a PPI DSP-88R and an APT-X receiver with optical out. Streaming from the phone to the DSP sounds better than the car-pc with an USB-DAC that I had been using as a source.


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## jowens500 (Sep 5, 2008)

I know you guys will flame me about this, but you could use the new Kicker IQ Interface and an IQ 1000.5 amp.


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## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

jowens500 said:


> I know you guys will flame me about this, but you could use the new Kicker IQ Interface and an IQ 1000.5 amp.


Wtf. I have been pondering my next system. I wanted a dsp that I could control with Android. And the setup that can so that requires me to buy kicker amps? I think they missed the mark here. Why not a stand alone processor that can bt in the music?


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

madcowintucson said:


> I have been doing this for years. I had this working on my note 2 back in the day. Use any device with aptx and stream it to a Bluetooth to optical converter that I got mine at best buy the rocket fish one and it's aptx ready. Then just pipe optical into my behringer deq and dcx. **** sounds ****ing fantastic and got rid of all my noise issues from my cables I had before lol. I stream all my milk and slacker that way. Sounds fantastic.


Same here. Using the Samsung Galaxy Note II and Int'l Galaxy Note 8.0" phablet (both have Apt-X/CSR and the 8.0 has the same electronic guts as the Note II) streaming to the Arcam rBlink Apt-X BT receiver into RF 360.3, Sony XDP-4000X, and Helix DSP Pro.

The Note II has the advantage of having a built-in FM Tuner (hardware chip tuner), and I'm using the Spirit1/Spirit2 Real FM Radio apps by Mike Reid. You can also use iHeartRadio, Tune-In Radio, or other radio streaming apps to listen to radio stations from around the globe.


Both Galaxy Notes have the ability to use 128GB microSDXC cards for media storage.  And Sandisk now makes a *200GB microSDXC* card! :surprised: Main music player app is the Android USB Audio Player Pro by eXtream Software Development.

Also using the Notes hardwired via USB OTG+Power cable into the SMSL X-USB XMOS USB to Coaxial/Optical Converter fed into the DSPs.


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## BlueGhost (Jul 28, 2014)

jowens500 said:


> I know you guys will flame me about this, but you could use the new Kicker IQ Interface and an IQ 1000.5 amp.


I think the AMP/DSP Hybrids are a good way of integrating without a head unit. There are some great choices now between Audison, Helix, Match, Massive, Kicker and so on. Even the Bluetooth enabled amps are great if you want a simple solution for just streaming music.


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## palldat (Feb 6, 2011)

I have been doing this on and off for over 15 years and my last system was a windows PC running through my 6to8 processor and and I would also use my android tablet through Bluetooth.

The difference from Bluetooth and SPDIF was not noticeable to me.

I am currently using the factory headunit with a android PC and external hard drive.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

jowens500 said:


> I know you guys will flame me about this, but you could use the new Kicker IQ Interface and an IQ 1000.5 amp.


Actually, I've been bitching and moaning for some folks to chime in on those things.. Supposedly, they're out there in the world, so we know they're not vaporware, but crap on a stick! Who's using them? No one's chimed in on doing a Kicker IQ setup.. It's kinda like the most ground-breaking thing Kicker's ever done in terms of technology or DSP control etc, but as far as internet chatter on them.. nothing.. Nada.. Zip. 

I've been fascinated by them since CES 2015 when they were exposed. I guess since Kicker chose just their 'exclusive' and 'uber' dealer network for them it's easier for folks to find Mosconi and Audison and Zapco and Helix etc etc etc.. Brands that in the US were rather exclusive, yet more approachable than the Kicker Q-class gear, oddly. 

Point being, I think Kicker should get off their IQ high-horse and get 'em on doggone SonicElectronix and Crutchfield like the rest of the world, except for a few brick-n-mortar-only brands and let the market have at 'em. Otherwise, I suspect they'll be that odd-ball product that few remember but never took off.

And I believe they're doing this just to bolster the rather bloated MSRP's on them.. Thus my interest gets extinguished.

Rant over.


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## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

So I bought one of those aptx receivers as I need analog into the massive DSP. Chose not to use the aptx included as I need volume control. 

I tested out the built in dac with a mid market headset, Philips Fidelio X1 with about 33 ohms resistance. 
Sounded terrible. Used the coaxial out to a burr brown dac, sounded great. So i figured it was the built in DAC that was at fault, it sounded like I had a HPF of 100hz.

Opened up the BT, inside is a 24bit 192khz D/A Cirrus chip. What the hell?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Navy Chief said:


> This post is exactly what I have been looking for. I have been trying to find an easy way to use the mhl port on my Sony Xperia Z phone to feed digital signal into my Alpine H700 as well as my factory head unit via line output converter.
> 
> If I can have a Bluetooth signal of similar quality as a cd or mhl/hdmi connector, then why not. This is so much cleaner of an install also.
> 
> ...


This is the exact same unit as mine, except mine has APT lossless.

One gripe that I have with the unit is that there's ZERO documentation. I can't see any way to "enable" lossless transmission. (Both my phone and the receiver support it.)

I hate to "leave it up to the software" to use the lossless transmission; I really wish there was an LED or a setting that would confirm that I'm going lossless, particularly since the whole reason I paid extra was to get that capability.


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## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

Do you find that the frequency response of the aptx unit changes at low volumes? I seem to get a lowered bass/midbass response


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Kazuhiro said:


> Do you find that the frequency response of the aptx unit changes at low volumes? I seem to get a lowered bass/midbass response


Haven't installed it yet.

I generally find that all stereos do what you describe. This is due to two things:

1) harmonic distortion makes things sound louder. So when you crank up the volume, the bass and and midbass seem to get progressively louder than the midrange and treble, due to distortion.
2) fletcher munson curves


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## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

I don't feel like I ever had this issue with a headunit, is there some extra processing going on?
Being a completely digital device, I didn't expect the aptx receiver to have any distortion. Perhaps it's the DAC.


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## maiden (Apr 6, 2015)

One question. In almost every article of Aptx it mentions max figures of 44.1K quality and 352 kbps of band with, but aren't these figures saying that the audio quality is not beyond mp3 levels? Kindly correct me, cause I'm a noob in this.


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## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

Lookup APTX "lossless". 352kbps is A2DP/SBC isnt it?


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

I'll just leave this right here. 
https://www.google.com/intl/en_us/chromecast/speakers/#?discover


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

Babs said:


> I'll just leave this right here.
> https://www.google.com/intl/en_us/chromecast/speakers/#?discover
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


wonder if you have to choose airplay, and can use a static ip direct. i hate the stuff where you loose data. also guessing it needs an 1/8 to optical adapter.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

jtaudioacc said:


> wonder if you have to choose airplay, and can use a static ip direct. i hate the stuff where you loose data. also guessing it needs an 1/8 to optical adapter.



Like the airport express it uses a dual mini output to share optical with analog. Unlike the airport express its not AirPlay. Apple didn't wanna play. So it's Google's answer to AirPlay. 

What remains to be seen is how good the optical out is, or if it's replete with jitter. For a measly $35 I'm not optimistic, however if it does perform well for optical out, it's got a simple USB power source input. Would be a breeze to install in car. Waiting to hear on it's fidelity streaming optical. 

I also suspect pairing would be slightly easier but about the same as getting an Airport Express rolling. And I suspect like the airport express, running a reclocker like the Wyred4sound Remedy which I'm considering, would correct the jitters. Might depend on the DSP used as to how necessary that'd be. I'm certainly no digital expert, but wanna know. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

blah, if i can't get going in a few seconds it's not worth the hassle. i don't use my chromecast enough but i thought wifi direct to it was only to set it up, not stream to it. i'm guessing you still might need some type of network if you are using this in a car? too much hassle.


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## maiden (Apr 6, 2015)

There are two receiving devices from Mosconi you can look at. 

http://mosconi-system.it/product/amas/

and 

http://mosconi-system.it/product/dsp-amas-2/

I personally am looking at the AMAS2 as it's cheaper to be paired with any optical input DSP. 

But am still worried on the source. I want to use a smartphone, but none specifically mention using Aptx Lossless.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

If the Amas 2 were wifi instead of Bluetooth this would be a relatively short thread. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

jtaudioacc said:


> blah, if i can't get going in a few seconds it's not worth the hassle. i don't use my chromecast enough but i thought wifi direct to it was only to set it up, not stream to it. i'm guessing you still might need some type of network if you are using this in a car? too much hassle.



If this is like the airport express, it's a one time setup which even I can do from the phone.. Then it's just a matter of pairing automatically when you start the car. 

I have better luck with auto connecting to the APE via wifi than bluetooth to my 149BT Alpine which simply will not pair to my phone automatically without selecting it in settings, and still using it is sketchy. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

maiden said:


> But am still worried on the source. I want to use a smartphone, but none specifically mention using Aptx Lossless.


List of Smartphones (and ALL other devices) that have Apt-X CSR Bluetooth connectivity:

Smartphones and Tablets with aptX® from HTC, Samsung, Sharp


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## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

I think I will ditch the headunitless lifestyle.. And grab a Kenwood x599. Seems like a great value aptX headunit. Without a headunit and just a remote switch and phone mount, I feel as if there is a void in the experience. I miss the simple source switching with radio, master volume control and some LEDs to lighten the car up a bit haha...


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Hmm.

I am using a Asus ROG motherboard, which has a dedicated, isolated and emi shielded audio implementation. Latest versions have ESS dac (if you want to use to analog out), separate clock source and anti-pop relay built into the motherboard. Board is expensive, but I paired it with an inexpensive Celeron processor (which kills my current desktop processor). I run optical from this to 2x8 minidsp, but the analog audio output from this board is pretty stellar, and one might be able to avoid an external processor if one wanted. DTS neo upmixing is also an option out of the box, along with whatever 3rd party software desired. 

Asus, a few years back stated they plan to make a serious commitment to improving onboard audio, and it seems they have made good on that promise. This board sounds fantastic. 

So, no head unit. But also a headless pc. I just use my Note 3 as a remote control to the VLC player on the car pc. The remote app is easy enough to navigate, select tracks, make playlists, and adjust volume. If I ever need to do anything on the actual desktop, I use Chrome Remote Desktop through my phone, and it works well enough to do some basic stuff (REW measurements, DSP adjustments, ect). Alternatively, I can access the car pc through a my home pc via Remote Desktop for better functionality and more control. I was tuning the car while sitting inside the other day. 

Yeah, so no stinkin' headunit; storage for days, no lossy formats or transfers.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

^ Seems like an awesome setup! Really happy to hear about the improvement in the on-board sound chips!

Are you using a Carnetix PSU or some other type of power supply?

What is cold boot time to music actually playing?

Or do you always have the computer going into Sleep Mode when the key is off?

Is there a way to choose Sleep or Full Shutdown?

Are there any decent AM/FM Tuner PCI-E cards or USB Tuners that don't have a problem when resuming from Sleep or Hibernate?


Thanks!


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## maiden (Apr 6, 2015)

One option that is available is using a Raspberry Pi 2 and use a Hifiberry Digi+ additional board. Can use a 7" touchscreen from Raspberry to use as a controller. Will give pure optical out and 192k music. But the digital out has to go into a DSP.


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## axipher (Oct 7, 2015)

maiden said:


> One option that is available is using a Raspberry Pi 2 and use a Hifiberry Digi+ additional board. Can use a 7" touchscreen from Raspberry to use as a controller. Will give pure optical out and 192k music. But the digital out has to go into a DSP.


If you want a pretty inexpensive option for for optical signal to your amps, the MiniDSP 2x4 + MiniDIGI is an amazing option. I'm in the progress of helping my room mate put a full Car-puter in his 2014 Mazda 6 with a 7" touch screen in the factory screen location, small keyboard in the glovebox and Bluetooth tracker ball mouse.

MiniDSP2x4: https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidspkits/2-x-in-4-x-out
MiniDIGI: https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidspkits/minidigi

We are just using an ITX motherboard and using the optical out to the MiniDSP 2x4 + MiniDIGI combo to get 4 channels output, 2 channels go to the sub, and the other 2 go to the 6 channel amp for the speakers.

Eventually we might upgrade to the MiniDSP6x8 though as it offers SPDIF in as well and 8 channels of output: https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/c-dsp-6x8


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

bbfoto said:


> ^ Seems like an awesome setup! Really happy to hear about the improvement in the on-board sound chips!
> 
> Are you using a Carnetix PSU or some other type of power supply?
> 
> ...


It's not just the chips, really. It's the implementation that is key, especially in the potentially electrically noisy pc environment. I don't have the version VIII ROG board with the ESS chip that Asus just started to release last week, I have the version VII Maximus Impact with the Realtek ALC 1150 chip. The Realtek chips have been routinely bashed by audiophiles, but it's not an issue with the chips really, as they often spec very good performance. The issue is in the implementation, which most MB manufactures fail at. There is also another advantage to the Realtek chip that I will detail below. But, the long of short, is that Asus did put in the effort, which is why the board is so darn expensive and also why this board has the best audio to date; verified by various review sites.

Another issue is that motherboards are typically noisy environments. The advantage to high end mother boards, is that they are designed for enthusiasts who will overclock, which in turn requires very stable and clean electrical source. So these boards have a lot of filtering on them.

The next biggest source of noise is the power supply, which you asked about. I had a minibox m4-atx. That thing was terrible. The on pulse never worked, so I had to use a manual on button. When the supply did work, it was an EMI nightmare. Its almost like they designed the thing to be a radio antenna. It picked up everything from mouse movements, to 4G, to my neighbors AC unit. Other people have had issues with it too, and have gone to great lengths to try to resolve it. I ditched it (well it ditched me, and took out my previous motherboard with it). Absolute garbage. So I now have a HDPLEX Hi-Fi 250W atx, which is designed with noise suppression in mind. The down side is that you must supply it with 16-24v of regulated dc. So you can't run it directly on the car electrical system. But this power supply is great, and I have zero noise issues, and it also powers the minidsp board. 

Cold boot with SSD is very fast, but it can take a few moments for the wifi to connect so that I can use the VLC remote. Just the nature of the beast. If I had a monitor, it would be a non-issue, but I don't want to spend the $$. don't want to mess with fitting one to the dash, and I like things stealthy. It's trade off.

Mostly I just cold boot. But, if I just go to the store for a second, I typically leave everything on. By the time I get near the car, sit down, put stuff away ect, the wifi is connected and I am ready to rock. I am working on proximity sensing stuff through Bluetooth so that the PC will go into sleep when out of range of my phone, and then wake when I am nearby. The ultimate plan is to get that to power on/off the amps and the minidsp so that the only power drain is the pc in sleep mode. The minidsp has a remote wire with thump delay to the amps, so really it's just about controlling the power on the dsp.

There are endless configurations of shutdown, sleep, wake, ect in the uefi bios settings. Right now I just set the power button to shutdown, and manually press the power button on/off when I get in the car. The motherboard has a built in power button. The ultimate hope is that I can get sleep/idle draw with proximity sensing down to the point where I don't need to cold boot unless I don't plan to drive anywhere for a day.

I haven't looked into FM options. It would be the last thing. I don't listen to the radio very much. I do listen to podcast, so at some point I need to figure out streaming that to the pc; but that is way back on the list for now.

One last thing on the Realtek ALC 1150. The Realtek HD chips, since they are nearly ubiquitous, can support many different surround sound formats. The formats available is ultimately down to licensing. My Gigabyte board came with Dolby formats and my ROG board with DTS. There is some debate as to which up mixing format is the best, most seem to favor Dolby PLII over DTS Neo. But, you are not stuck with either. Any Realtek HD chip can be unlocked by using the Realtek HD audio drivers instead of the pre-bundled drivers. So you can get access to both DTS and Dolby PLII, regardless of what was licensed...not that I would do that . I don't plan to use up mixing at this point, but if I get bored, it's an option.

Wait...what was Patrick looking into when he started this thread?


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

^LOL!

Hey, thanks for taking the time to go into detail about your setup and all of the options! :thumbsup:


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Apple iPhone 6 Plus Audio Measurements

No reason to go digital when we have this. No costly components, no re-sampling and multiple re clocking. Just a high end, all in one box, analog output. Just get yourself an iDevice, mount it near the DSP and connect it via a 3.5mm to RCA cable. Power and charge it with a quality isolated PS (maybe MiniDSP can start selling a 5 volt version of their Isolator). Control and display media via your BT head unit. Tether it to your iPhone for Siri functionality. Do master volume control from the iDevice or better yet from your DSP. And do hands free calling from an external BT device like a Parrot that way there constant text and call alert no longer interrupt your music. Lower quality sources from the head unit can be fed to the other inputs on the head unit if you please.


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## axipher (Oct 7, 2015)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Apple iPhone 6 Plus Audio Measurements
> 
> No reason to go digital when we have this. No costly components, no re-sampling and multiple re clocking. Just a high end, all in one box, analog output. Just get yourself an iDevice, mount it near the DSP and connect it via a 3.5mm to RCA cable. Power and charge it with a quality isolated PS (maybe MiniDSP can start selling a 5 volt version of their Isolator). Control and display media via your BT head unit. Tether it to your iPhone for Siri functionality. Do master volume control from the iDevice or better yet from your DSP. And do hands free calling from an external BT device like a Parrot that way there constant text and call alert no longer interrupt your music. Lower quality sources from the head unit can be fed to the other inputs on the head unit if you please.


I did not realize the latest iPhone 6 Plus stepped up their analog output so much. I might just have to look in to upgrading my Nexus 7 tablet in my car and Alpine head unit to just the new iPhone and give it a data-only SIM card for Slacker/Pandora Radio.

Only caveat to running no head unit and using analog output is integrating my steering wheel controls. Are there and good iAccessories that can integrate steering wheel controls while maintaining that amazing analog output of the iPhone?


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

axipher said:


> I did not realize the latest iPhone 6 Plus stepped up their analog output so much. I might just have to look in to upgrading my Nexus 7 tablet in my car and Alpine head unit to just the new iPhone and give it a data-only SIM card for Slacker/Pandora Radio.
> 
> Only caveat to running no head unit and using analog output is integrating my steering wheel controls. Are there and good iAccessories that can integrate steering wheel controls while maintaining that amazing analog output of the iPhone?


They've been pretty transparent ever since the iPhone 5, which was also tested in that site. And that with the change to the supposed "crappy" Cirrus Logic DAC they choose over the previous Wolfsons. 

Dunno what's out there in terms of control accessories though.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> They've been pretty transparent ever since the iPhone 5, which was also tested in that site. And that with the change to the supposed "crappy" Cirrus Logic DAC they choose over the previous Wolfsons.
> 
> Dunno what's out there in terms of control accessories though.


Hmmm.. Wonder if the iPhone 6 audio is as good as that 6+ in the review?
Fascinating.. I'd have never guessed it.


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## axipher (Oct 7, 2015)

t3sn4f2 said:


> They've been pretty transparent ever since the iPhone 5, which was also tested in that site. And that with the change to the supposed "crappy" Cirrus Logic DAC they choose over the previous Wolfsons.
> 
> Dunno what's out there in terms of control accessories though.


Right now I'm using an old iPhone 4 with a faulty 3G antenna as a iPod Touch mostly so I can use the TuneIt App for my Alpine deck. Might look around for an old iPhone 5 or 6 in local shops. My only worry about buying used is when the old owner turns around and reports it stolen then you have to fight with Apple for a month to get it unlocked.

But the latest Windows 10 Mobile Preview just unlocked native FLAC support in the default Groove Music App so I'm going to give that a try tonight directly in to my sound processor and see how well that works compared to my head unit.

I just have become so use to my steering wheel control in this car since I've been driving it for almost 6 years now.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Babs said:


> Hmmm.. Wonder if the iPhone 6 audio is as good as that 6+ in the review?
> Fascinating.. I'd have never guessed it.


I have one, so I'm also wondering. Though the plus is soooooo clean that I can't see the 6 being any different audibly. Who knows, maybe the 6 is even cleaner. :surprised:


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## TheAlchemist9 (Apr 29, 2015)

t3sn4f2 said:


> I have one, so I'm also wondering. Though the plus is soooooo clean that I can't see the 6 being any different audibly. Who knows, maybe the 6 is even cleaner. :surprised:



6 and 6+ are identical in terms of audio (physical components and performance), by all accounts.


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## TheAlchemist9 (Apr 29, 2015)

And to add to this discussion, iPhone 6 streaming Tidal HIFI to a NuForce BTR-100 sounds fantastic.

Tidal HIFI > Spotify, even at the same bit rate and sent over Bluetooth


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

EcoHawk said:


> 6 and 6+ are identical in terms of audio (physical components and performance), by all accounts.


I figured components would be the same, just not sure how a different board layout will affect things. If there is one.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

axipher said:


> I did not realize the latest iPhone 6 Plus stepped up their analog output so much. I might just have to look in to upgrading my Nexus 7 tablet in my car and Alpine head unit to just the new iPhone and give it a data-only SIM card for Slacker/Pandora Radio.
> 
> Only caveat to running no head unit and using analog output is *integrating my steering wheel controls. Are there any good iAccessories that can integrate steering wheel controls while maintaining that amazing analog output of the iPhone?*


Stupid expensive: NAVTV SteerBlue/StreamBlue Bluetooth Steering Wheel Control & BT Streaming Interface with Analog & Coaxial Digital Output

http://www.amazon.com/NAV-TV-Universal-Streaming-Tablet-Integration/dp/B00PVZAIO2/ 

https://www.nav.tv/products/steerblue-steering-wheel-smart-device-controller-steerblue

Look into the JoyCon EXR with BT module as well.


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## axipher (Oct 7, 2015)

bbfoto said:


> Stupid expensive: NAVTV SteerBlue Bluetooth Steering Wheel Control & BT Streaming Interface with Analog & Optical Digital Output
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/NAV-TV-Universal-Streaming-Tablet-Integration/dp/B00PVZAIO2/
> 
> ...


Awesome, thanks for this, going to look in to those as options.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

axipher said:


> Awesome, thanks for this, going to look in to those as options.


Cool. Oh, I corrected my post above...the Digital Output on the SteerBlue or StreamBlue unit is COAXIAL, not Optical. And you would also need a PAC or some other Steering Wheel interface module for after-market HU's.


StreamBlue Product Description:

"Tablet and Smartphone Audio and Safety Integration is Now Simple, Crystal Clear and Wireless! The Stream Blue is an universal interface that allows you to control your Smartphone or Tablet from your factory steering wheel controls and stream high-quality audio through the RCA or S/PDIF outputs. Stream Blue is a super high-quality Bluetooth 4.0 with EDR (extended data rate) audio streaming interface that provides a seamless and secure bi-directional wireless connection with your tablet or smart phone. The included and selectable analog RCA or digital S/PDIF (electrical coaxial) outputs allow the Stream Blue to be used by directly connecting to a factory or aftermarket audio input, aftermarket amplifier, or to a third party audio processing unit with either analog RCA or digital S/PDIF input. Stream Blue supports pairing of up to 8 different devices and provides a 12 volt, 1 AMP remote output whenever a Bluetooth connection is active. Additionally, when used in an application where a tablet or smart phone is used to replace the factory radio, the Stream Blue, coupled with a vehicle-compatible steering wheel control interface from PAC, Metra or iDatalink, allows steering wheel control functionality for safety. Compatible with the following SWC interfaces: PAC SWI-RC/X, Metra ASWC-1 & iDataLink Maestro.
VEHICLE COMPATIBILITY - UNIVERSAL."

Now all they need to do is include an AM/FM/HD Tuner in this module, and the iOS and Android apps to control it! That would be sweet. Then you could definitely roll without a conventional Head Unit.

And I'd be interested to know if the latest generation of iPad Air and iPad Mini have audio output comparable to the iPhone 6+. Also, I would assume that the 6S & 6S+ are just as good as the 6+ (hopefully).


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## axipher (Oct 7, 2015)

bbfoto said:


> Cool. Oh, I corrected my post above...the Digital Output on the SteerBlue or StreamBlue unit is COAXIAL, not Optical. And you would also need a PAC or some other Steering Wheel interface module for after-market HU's.
> 
> 
> StreamBlue Product Description:
> ...


I've already got a PAC unit to give controls to my current Alpine deck so bonus there. Might have to take a deeper look at the Stream Blue now. I kind of want to get a good 6 channel amp first though for my Morels and a better processor.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I spent way too long this weekend figuring out how to do Prologic II in the car, and during the process I managed to collect some info on how to eliminate the need for a head unit in the car.
> 
> Thought this info might be useful for people, so here ya go!
> 
> ...


It looks like Google's new "Chromecast Audio" might be a better option nowadays. I bought the Belkin receiver detailed in the first post, and I found that it suffered from a couple of issues. First, I couldn't figure out any way to 'force' it to do lossless. The box advertises that it's lossless, but there's absolutely nothing that TELLS you if it's lossless. No LED, no setting, nothing in the manual.

And second, due to the fact that it's Bluetooth, the range is crummy.

The "Chromecast Audio" appears to run on WiFi, and users are reporting that it plays lossless:

https://forums.plex.tv/discussion/184996/chromecast-audio-w-optical-flac


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## axipher (Oct 7, 2015)

I'm playing with a new setup right now and rather enjoying it. Had an old RaspBerry PI B laying around and found Max2Play which makes the setup process really easy. I added on a Edimax USB WIFi receiver to turn the RaspBerry PI in to a wireless access point and the Max2Play platform provides you with a very nice interface to setup AirPlay, SqueezeBox for headless playback or you can add a screen on and install Kodi or XBMC.

Once setup I hooked up my USB DAC (FiiO E18) which is overkill for this application but provides a nice clean digital SPDIF over COAX to my MiniDSP C 6x8 which comes with a nice little remote volume knob and 4 presets for tuning.

This remote lets me have the following presets when I decide to remove my head unit completely:
- RaspBerry PI (AirPlay) TA for driver seat
- RaspBerry PI (AirPlay) TA to center of car
- Front Aux in (3.5mm jack)
- Bluetooth > 3.5mm convertor in the trunk

I've been really happy with this setup so far and it sips next to no power so I just leave it on all the time in my car powered off a high power USB hub in my glovebox.


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## jerome (Mar 30, 2012)

I'm looking for a solution to go headless and can't seem to find what I need.

I want to feed an optical signal to MiniDSP C-DSP 6x8 to do processing and send analog signal out to a 5 channel amp which powers an active 2-way + sub setup.

My android phone will be the only source via Bluetooth aptX and I want to be able to also make handsfree calls with it. It seems that the call audio on the cheap bluetooth modules is really bad. I've never gotten one that people can hear me clearly on while driving. So I would want to find something that gives you an external microphone option that you could place in the headliner or clip to the visor. The problem is that I cannot find a Bluetooth module that has both an external microphone and optical out.

The closest solutions I have found are:

Kicker's IQI bluetooth module, but it is expensive and you are tied to using a Kicker amp.

Raspberry Pi unit but that seems unreliable and difficult.

Alpine INE-W957HD, but that is super expensive and I don't need the head unit features.

Any decent Bluetooth head unit with aptX would work but would only have analog output.

Anybody have ideas for how to solve this issue?


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## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

Whats wrong with analogue output? I use a Kenwood x599 with aptX


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## maiden (Apr 6, 2015)

jerome said:


> I'm looking for a solution to go headless and can't seem to find what I need.
> 
> I want to feed an optical signal to MiniDSP C-DSP 6x8 to do processing and send analog signal out to a 5 channel amp which powers an active 2-way + sub setup.
> 
> ...


I've been looking into a similar setup (source i.e.) for my car. One particular Bluetooth receiver has caught my eye, i.e. the Bose Bluetooth Receiver. It has TOSLINK and analog. It claims to be able to connect 3 units at the same time, so in theory output should be pretty good for calls too. But honestly haven't found anyone who has used it in a car. 

I do have one question for you. How does music over Bluetooth Aptx to C-DSP sound? Is there a big loss to say previous analog setups we were accustomed to?

Thanks


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## jerome (Mar 30, 2012)

Kazuhiro - Nothing wrong with analog, the thought process behind using optical is just to avoid converting a digital signal using a (potentially inferior) DAC in a bluetooth module and sending it to the C-DSP which converts it back into a digital signal to do the processing and then uses another DAC to convert it back into analog to send to the amplifiers. Maybe not even audibly different than analog, but just looking to optimize the setup if I can.

maiden - I'm still in the planning stages, so I couldn't tell you based on real-world experience what Apt-x sounds like compared to a hardwired setup. The problem with the Bose unit for calls is that it doesn't have a microphone. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the ability to connect to up to 3 sources at once - don't think this unit allows you to make calls on it. From the FAQ at the bottom of the Bose product page:



> If I'm using my smartphone with the adapter, will phone calls play through the Bose product?
> 
> No. A phone call interrupts your audio source and plays through your phone only. When the call ends, your music automatically resumes through the Bose product you are using.


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## maiden (Apr 6, 2015)

jerome said:


> maiden - I'm still in the planning stages, so I couldn't tell you based on real-world experience what Apt-x sounds like compared to a hardwired setup. The problem with the Bose unit for calls is that it doesn't have a microphone. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the ability to connect to up to 3 sources at once - don't think this unit allows you to make calls on it. From the FAQ at the bottom of the Bose product page:


Jerome, 

I was referring to using something like the below :


http://m.ebay.com/itm/Universal-Blu...er-For-Phone-Car-Kit-/262348581496?nav=SEARCH


http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eB...1683&category=88468&pm=1&ds=0&t=1459564044271

And you can setup which paired devices in your phone will do what. So voice calla through this will leave you with the Bose or any receiver to handle music easily. Heck, in theory Bluetooth with A2DP can handle different things at the same time. Like say if you want steering controls for the smartphone/tablet at the time of audio streaming.


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## Nismo (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm still wanting to try and do a 'good' DPLII implementation with 5.1. I've looked at the <$10 processors, but you can't find the early HD Rage ones...and the headphone ones appear to be 100% of the time implemented, or don't appear to be controlled easily.

I've found the broken KEF 5.1 DSP on ebay, the Alpine 701/800 units, the Pioneer P8000, the Rockford RFQ5000, and a few others (mostly Chinese garbage). My issue with the Alpines are they are too powerful/expensive, the RFQ is impossible to find (I missed one on here), and KEF is unresponsive to emails.

My issue with the high end ones is that I can't use a steering wheel control for the processors, don't have bluetooth for phone calls, and I'd likely end up with a MiniDSP of some sort. This would make much of the extra expense redundant.

Any more, you can buy a new receiver from Best Buy for less than $200 (and I'm sure this is the case for several years) that has 5.1 in it...but for car it's insanely expensive.

I just got my wife's 2007 Accord, and I'm working out what I'll be using in it. Because I need the bluetooth, and I don't use CD's any more...I bought a JVC media deck for $90 new from Crutchfield. It only has 2 sets of preouts, but at this point that's not an issue. If I am taking the output to a processor, I only need 1 set anyway! I am going to buy a Hifimediy Sabre DAC for my Nexus 7 to direct the audio to the new deck, so I can have the audio from my GPS actually be audible while driving!

It seems that from my standpoint, it appears that having a working KEF or RFQ would be the best situation, but I haven't been able to find either.

Eric


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## palldat (Feb 6, 2011)

Nismo said:


> I'm still wanting to try and do a 'good' DPLII implementation with 5.1. I've looked at the <$10 processors, but you can't find the early HD Rage ones...and the headphone ones appear to be 100% of the time implemented, or don't appear to be controlled easily.
> 
> I've found the broken KEF 5.1 DSP on ebay, the Alpine 701/800 units, the Pioneer P8000, the Rockford RFQ5000, and a few others (mostly Chinese garbage). My issue with the Alpines are they are too powerful/expensive, the RFQ is impossible to find (I missed one on here), and KEF is unresponsive to emails.
> 
> ...


The Mosconi 6to8 has a blutooth option for phone calls i believe. Check it out.


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## Nismo (Jan 10, 2010)

Does the 6to8 offer ProLogic? If not, my JVC already handles the Bluetooth function.

Thanks!
Eric


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Nismo said:


> *Does the 6to8 offer ProLogic?* If not, my JVC already handles the Bluetooth function.
> 
> Thanks!
> Eric


No..


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## Zippy (Jul 21, 2013)

What about this for getting rca or toslink from hdmi?

LPCM 7.1CH HDMI Audio Converter : Airyear Electronics Cheap Gadgets Shop

5 Volt, 1 amp, full channel separation to RCA, toslink out, hdmi out to a liliput monitor, 24/192 supported input, etc...


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## Nismo (Jan 10, 2010)

t3sn4f2 said:


> No..


I looked at the website, but didn't see anything. I had a strong suspicion, but unfortunately I'm no closer with the previous suggestion.

Thanks for the confirmation!

Eric


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Running Chromecast out of the HDMI on the head unit, and its fantastic.....I didn't do any critical listening as I just got it in for the first time...So I'll let the "new gear" effect wear down, and see how it is...But its great to see Youtube tracks that are HD sound and play and watch(when stopped or safe, of course).


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Nismo said:


> I looked at the website, but didn't see anything. I had a strong suspicion, but unfortunately I'm no closer with the previous suggestion.
> 
> Thanks for the confirmation!
> 
> Eric


A good way to know is to look at the front panel of the device. If it comes with it you'll almost certainly see some type of ad type labeling.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Things are a bit complex and over my head with all these extra cables DAC's and wires.


I came across this amp, It offers apt X BT for AAC files. If they can includes TA, and EQ in one of those amps, it will totally eliminate the HU besides the RCAs and DAC's 

Kenwood KAC-M1824BT Compact 4-channel amplifier with Bluetooth® connectivity — 45 watts RMS x 4 at Crutchfield.com


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## maiden (Apr 6, 2015)

Agreed it eliminates the HU completely, but at the cost of power and sonic quality. 45W RMS from a Class D at 14.4V and 1%THD are not things we expect from a $300 amp.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

It was just an example or a taste of the future or what we may see. 
Kenwood also offers a 2 ch version of. similar BT technology that delivers 
150W/ ch, maybe we will see a 5 ch vesion soon with 700Watts and eventually become more affordable 

Not a solution for car audiophiles currently, but practical for the average person that won't need time alignment or doesn't know what that is. And iPods iPhones and iPads have some preset EQ choices that can be applied and be functional.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Zippy said:


> What about this for getting rca or toslink from hdmi?
> 
> LPCM 7.1CH HDMI Audio Converter : Airyear Electronics Cheap Gadgets Shop
> 
> 5 Volt, 1 amp, full channel separation to RCA, toslink out, hdmi out to a liliput monitor, 24/192 supported input, etc...


I can confirm, for HDMI to toslink, the ViewHD unit from Amazon tested flawlessly for me.. It's going in.

ViewHD HDMI Audio Extractor


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## Ride154 (May 14, 2016)

subd!


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