# Contemplating a Big Money event



## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

What would you be willing to pay for a chance at payout of the top 10 cars, with a guarantee that if you place in that group, you would get your entry money back?

For a $10,000 show, entry is $500, with a minimum requirement of 20 entries

For a $25,000 show, entry is $1250, with a minimum requirement of 20 entries

For a $50,000 show, entry would be $2500, with a minimum requirement of 20 entries.


This is a real possibility, but I need feedback before I move forward with plans. You see, Aggieland Invitational, one of the only cash shows in the US, is closing it's doors on their invitational series this year, and that leaves a gap. I am wanting to bring back money shows, but, you have to pay to play. With Aggieland, they have on average 35 to 40 SQ cars each year, with a payout of $5000. 

I want to know if there is enough interest in this, to offer a show with real money prizes, with the only stipulation of the entry fee.

Discuss. Please, try not to slam this post. My desire is to bring out the cars that started this hobby, Gary Biggs Regal, Mark Eldridge NASCAR, Mike Mineo Camaro, Markey Dietrich and Ziggy...these people that inspired us all in some way or another. I want to see if we can really compete on an international level. I think offering a big money payout, could bring in international competitors as well.

We could have 1 seat competition, and a separate 2 seat competition BTW, this will be a sound qualify contest only.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

While I can appreciate the idea I don't think that people will pay that kind of money for a chance to lose to the likes of the Blazer, the NASCAR(which I thought was up for sale) or the Regal(which no one has seen in a very long time). Just my .02 on it but I could be wrong.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

I'd think it wouldn't serve so much to attract newer cars.. Folks would be too intimidated by a perception (whether it's true or not) that the "old guard" are always going to be the guys on the podium. 

While that perception "might" be inaccurate according to points standings or winnings stats, it may still be the thing that keeps newer potential competitors from diving in and trying their hand in it. Those new folks are kind of after all, the folks we want to attract to competition I'd think in order to grow the sport side of SQ and build more prestige into the teams.

One guys 2 cents  Add $1.75 and you can buy a cup of coffee.

Adding: On thinking about it.. If there were some money categories based on competition levels, maybe even more so than car-class, from "newbie" to "pro" as opposed to "stock" to "full-bore extreme", I think that would draw more attention from newer folks to give it an old school try. Just brainstorming on the idea.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Entry fees that high will be tough for most and would also require a need for a panel of incredible independent judging talent outside of the current pool (like studio recording engineers using their own tracks). There was much better manufacturer support in the old days to help sponsor events so putting on any kind of big event these days gets quite costly.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

captainobvious said:


> Entry fees that high will be tough for most and would also require a need for a panel of incredible independent judging talent outside of the current pool (like studio recording engineers using their own tracks). There was much better manufacturer support in the old days to help sponsor events so putting on any kind of big event these days gets quite costly.


Yeah that'd be the thing.. Impeccable studio-class accredited judging at that level of money involved for prizes. I think folks would have more faith in those types of judges. Not to really question the level of current judges.. I cannot make any insinuations, criticisms or praise with my lack of competition experience. 

I will say just in the "chatter" I hear, the opinion is "if ya wanna get in it to win, join this team or that team and run this or that gear and you'll end up winning comps"... Hmm So if I rock some Legatias, it's a done deal huh?  Adding a little snark, but that's to point out the perception.

So that really supports the thing.. It'd have to be absolutely spotless impeccable impartiality and expertise all around top/down, preferably recording-industry level engineers or acousticians etc, in order for someone like me to even consider that kind of risky investment in a comp at that level.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Babs said:


> I will say just in the "chatter" I hear, the opinion is "if ya wanna get in it to win, join this team or that team and run this or that gear and you'll end up winning comps"... Hmm So if I rock some Legatias, it's a done deal huh?  Adding a little snark, but that's to point out the perception.


that is absolute nonsense.

Also, it takes more than just good ears to judge. People like to talk about musicians and engineers and all that. I'd be more inclined to accept an engineer than a musician, but that doesn't mean they'd be a good judge.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

pocket5s said:


> that is absolute nonsense.


... May be.. Hope so. Again I'm just pointing out "perceptions" that folks may have, whether factual or imagined. And again, I will say I do not have enough comp experience to make or form my own personal opinion on that, but it's the thing I hear among others. Also even more insinuating things like "a judge who also tuned the car".. Just the usual conspiracy stuff. I'd discount it all having not seen it in any given regular comp, but it would probably desuade me from spending big coin for a prize comp.

I should also say, the comp I attended, I found the judges to be great folks, with good feedback and very accommodating for the new guy, did not appear to have any bias or agenda, appeared competent enough, and I just got a good vibe from them. So I don't want to come across as a judge-basher.



pocket5s said:


> Also, it takes more than just good ears to judge. People like to talk about musicians and engineers and all that. I'd be more inclined to accept an engineer than a musician, but that doesn't mean they'd be a good judge.


.. I agree.. Actual musicians would be among the better judges in fact, I'd think. Or at least would be good to have actual players among the mix.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

Impartiality is a given. I wouldn't judge as I am putting on the show. None of the current judges outside of a select few would be the judges. In talking with Gary Biggs on this, we think it might be best to do as an independent show, with 2 seat judging only. The way it used to be. He said he will bring out the Regal for this show, the NASCAR is for sale, but, it is show ready, and Mineo, if we can coax him out of his basement, may just surprise all if he competes. 

This is not to bring in new competitors, as most new competitors don't have the coin to produce a two seat car. 

Like I said, this is still a concept, and most likely won't happen for a year or two due to planning.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

You'd be surprised... Plenty of musicians that have no clue about reproduction of music. That's why I mentioned studio/mastering engineers. They understand exactly what the track is supposed to sound like...obviously.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

If it's a 2 seat competition then I would expect even less success. That was how it was done in the old days, yes. But look at how many people actually compete these days in 2 seat. VERY few. And of those few, even fewer produce an even adequate 2 seat car. 

If you want a minimum of 20 entrants, I just don't see how you would get it with 2 seat only cars and high entry fees. Not knocking the effort Joe, I think a money event is a fun idea. I just think it will be incredibly difficult to get people out when you narrow the entrants pool by making it a 2 seat event, then further with high entry fee costs and even further considering the best of the old school 2 seat cars are dwindling. If it happens, I'd still like to hear them though


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

I too feel the higher the buy in, the less participation this will receive. All the names mentioned aren't active competitors and at least one spends his whole time living in the past and blabbering about how great he is but won't prove it. One was supposed to field some 8 cars a couple years ago and that never happened.

Aggieland was successful, IMO, because the $150 entry wasn't too high. For that price guys like me, who knew had no chance of being a top 10 car (10 payouts at aggieland), but got 7-8 judges in their car. The price per judge was less than many regular shows, so you basically got 7+ judges feedback in one weekend. That made it worthwhile. So start raising the price and it becomes less and less of a 'value'. You also were not forced to compete in the sanctioned events happening concurrently as some other shows require, further driving up the cost.

For others, there are maybe 2-4 cars that can seriously contend for 1st place, depending on format chosen (Aggieland uses IASCA with a few sections left out for example). the rest of the top 10 (assuming 10 places paid) is where the real competition would reside, as there are numerous cars at that level across the country. 

As a point of clarification in the OP, Aggieland money round was a 30 car event. Not all cars that showed up at the show did the money round. Most years there were 27-29 cars (last minute drop outs each year), while last year had 32 IIRC.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

captainobvious said:


> If it's a 2 seat competition then I would expect even less success. That was how it was done in the old days, yes. But look at how many people actually compete these days in 2 seat. VERY few. And of those few, even fewer produce an even adequate 2 seat car.


Most of the "two seat" cars at finals are actually one seaters that just compete in 2 seat. because of the scoresheet structure, they can typically beat a "true" 2 seat car, further making 2 seat cars less likely to be built in the future.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

SQ Audi said:


> Impartiality is a given. I wouldn't judge as I am putting on the show. None of the current judges outside of a select few would be the judges. In talking with Gary Biggs on this, we think it might be best to do as an independent show, with 2 seat judging only. The way it used to be. He said he will bring out the Regal for this show, the NASCAR is for sale, but, it is show ready, and Mineo, if we can coax him out of his basement, may just surprise all if he competes.
> 
> This is not to bring in new competitors, as most new competitors don't have the coin to produce a two seat car.
> 
> Like I said, this is still a concept, and most likely won't happen for a year or two due to planning.


I certainly think it's a good idea to stir the idea and nurture it and see if it makes a great dish. Maybe even throw around a mini-cash round on a smaller scale for competitors with less than 10 comps under their belts for a 1-seat comp. Hmm! That'd be fun, and make it small-change enough to attract some newbs, then they can experience seeing the big-money comp. Good promotion maybe?


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

captainobvious said:


> You'd be surprised... Plenty of musicians that have no clue about reproduction of music. That's why I mentioned studio/mastering engineers. They understand exactly what the track is supposed to sound like...obviously.


This ^^


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SQ Audi said:


> Impartiality is a given. I wouldn't judge as I am putting on the show. None of the current judges outside of a select few would be the judges. In talking with Gary Biggs on this, we think it might be best to do as an independent show, with 2 seat judging only. The way it used to be. He said he will bring out the Regal for this show, the NASCAR is for sale, but, it is show ready, and Mineo, if we can coax him out of his basement, may just surprise all if he competes.
> 
> This is not to bring in new competitors, as most new competitors don't have the coin to produce a two seat car.
> 
> Like I said, this is still a concept, and most likely won't happen for a year or two due to planning.


This quote above is different than how I initially perceived your motivation/goal here. So I'll just address the above.

To be brief but not intentionally blunt, my two cents is simply: if you're looking to get the 'old heads' back out and reignite the flame for two-seat judging then you're asking the wrong group of people. Those people are practically non-existent here. The ones who you speak of are mostly retired, it seems.

Furthermore, unfortunately from what I've seen on the various FB groups, some of the ones who are indeed adamant about two-seat judging like "the good old days" have turned in to keyboard commandos who won't even come out to spectate at their local shows. So I'm not confident they'd come out to compete. 

Personally, I don't get the draw for two-seat competition. But that's my viewpoint. Still, I suppose if there's a market for it AND you can get them to actually come out to a show then all the better. It would be nice to hear a legitimately good two seat car (not just a "sounds good tonality but won't image for crap" two seat car) and maybe start the ball rolling for those who might be interested in going that route.

*To my friends who are active in competition and do compete in two-seat, you know I'm not talking about you. You do know who I am talking about, though. Some of you guys replying have had this convo with me a few times. *


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

To further Erin's comments, if you are aiming for old school two seaters, then you'll have to include install in that competition. Because that's how they won back then and that what those keyboard commandos Erin is referring to complain about all the time. Sound was secondary.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

pocket5s said:


> To further Erin's comments, if you are aiming for old school two seaters, then you'll have to include install in that competition. Because that's how they won back then and that what those keyboard commandos Erin is referring to complain about all the time. Sound was secondary.


Oh it would be. This would be close to the old school rulebook. Minus RTA and possibly SPL. 

We all know who the keyboard commando Erin was talking about. I just would love to see a glimpse of the old school crowd show up and show off. I love the idea of two seat as my current car will be competitive in both. 

I am open to splitting up the prize money and going with a 1 seat /+ install class and a 2 seat/+ install class. If there are not enough signed up for the show, we will cancel it and move on as lesson learned.

None of the judges would be competitors nor would they be currently affiliated with any manufacturer. I have a list in mind and I have a couple of other old school competitors who might have some input in there as well.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

SQ Audi said:


> None of the current judges outside of a select few would be the judges.
> In talking with Gary Biggs on this, we think it might be best to do as an independent show, with 2 seat judging only. The way it used to be. He said he will bring out the Regal for this show, the NASCAR is for sale, but, it is show ready, and Mineo, if we can coax him out of his basement, may just surprise all if he competes.
> 
> This is not to bring in new competitors, as most new competitors don't have the coin to produce a two seat car.
> ...


No offense Joe but this will never happen.

Making this 2 seat only to bring out guys who are 20 years removed in some cases is like asking Nolan Ryan to come out and pitch at an All Star game and he has to pay to do it, NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

The ONLY thing that is going to happen is you are going to see a bunch of old guys who constantly argue with us "new guys who don't understand how to build a proper SQ Car" about how great it was. Then they are going to complain about the fact that the new judges wouldn't understand how to judge the cars properly because we don't know how to build proper SQ cars so they wont spend the money to compete. After that they are going to complain about being judged unfairly because of things that happened 20 years ago and those are the only judges they think can actually judge a "REAL" SQ car.... 

They will ALWAYS have an excuse NOT to compete, ALWAYS!!!! 

Joe, over the past 2+ years of the R.R.S. I have offered to cover the entry fee's AND GAS of any OG competitor that brought out their "PROPER SQ CAR" from way back in the day, bring me your gas receipt and I will give you back the money, no matter how much it cost to gas up your truck, your car, your tow vehicle.... Guess how many of those guys have taken me up on my offer? NONE, ZERO, ZIP!!!!! They always have an excuse.

I wish you luck in this but I just don't see it happening.....


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

I have received advise from some very good friends on and outside DIYMA. While I understand that this is just advice, I am thinking that I will pull the reigns back, keep the talk open, and gauge it from there. Like I said, this may never happen, or it could happen in 2 years.

I know the new school crowd...maybe develop a score sheet that pins the 2 seat AGAINST the 1 seat competitors. In both sound and install, and just see who comes out on top. 

I am both. I competed very well in the 90's, and I have done pretty well in later years. I would just like to see if this is possible. We can play with the options and then form a solution. Or just trash the whole concept.

Thanks for the input guys. I really appreciate it.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Nostalgia is an amazing thing. But some things are best left where they are, and there is a reason why they are no longer around.

Time to move forward


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SQ Audi said:


> We all know who the keyboard commando Erin was talking about.


Ahem...

I said "keyboard commando*s*". There's definitely more than the one you guys are referring to.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

ErinH said:


> Ahem...
> 
> 
> 
> I said "keyboard commando*s*". There's definitely more than the one you guys are referring to.




I was referring to ALL of them 


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> Nostalgia is an amazing thing. But some things are best left where they are, and there is a reason why they are no longer around.
> 
> Time to move forward


When I keep reading "old school" this is exactly what I think. There is a reason it is old school, times change. 



SQ Audi said:


> keep the talk open


I definitely agree with this though, while what you intended from your original post may never happen. What might happen though, is enough people get talking and bouncing ideas around that something does happen.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I think the idea of different entry fee's for different levels of payout is a good idea. Maybe 150 level with couple thousand payout, then a 1000 entry with a big payout etc. Keep the guy's already paying to play and newbies (new on the paying part) interested.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I might be open to the possibility of this idea. 

But it would depend for sure on what part of the country the event is held. 

I get 11 MPG Diesel in my rig. So fuel expenses can add up quick. 

I like the idea for sure. It would help with travelling expenses if I were able to place high enough.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I might be open to the possibility of this idea.
> 
> But it would depend for sure on what part of the country the event is held.
> 
> ...


Maybe we could do a competition over youtube just for you!!! JK/LOL!!!

so sorry, Gerald, couldn't help it... just kidding around.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

GEM592 said:


> If this is a thread that started to encourage more comp participation, it failed. More money is not the issue, it is the culture. Why should this hobby ever involve a trophy? Isn't it about what you get out of it personally?
> 
> I like the idea of people getting together and listening to each-other's stuff. But when there is big money or whatever I'm just going to turn the volume up and enjoy.


Actually, no, this is not what it was intended to do. It was to gauge interest for a show that has a big money payout. Nothing is written in stone. Obviously you won't be there, as you have made it very clear you would never compete in car audio. 

My business partner does fishing tournaments with a $200k entry fee and millions in prizes. He was hoping that there might be some interest in doing this for the car audio competition, albeit in a much lower price point.


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## lowcel (Dec 28, 2014)

I read this yesterday and I have spent way too much time thinking about it since. Please keep in mind that my opinion is coming from someone that would most likely not be in the top ten.

For a show like this I would fork over $300 no questions asked. I would possibly go up to $500 but that would be pushing it. Now, I'm a government worker from the great state of West Virginia so $500 to me is still a lot of money to "donate" at a show like this. 

Now, for this show to be worth "donating" $500 I want to be able to listen to the best cars in the world while I am there. For that reason I would want one particular rule made and enforced. I want everyone competing to be willing to demo (within reason of course). If a person is not willing to demo then I think they should be disqualified. 

I think demoing is beneficial for two reasons. First, which is obvious, to help others get a grasp of what the best vehicles in the world (okay, country) sound like. Second, I think it will help eliminate anyone thinking that it was fixed because nobody even got to hear the car that won.

Just my half a cent, do with it what you will.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

lowcel said:


> I read this yesterday and I have spent way too much time thinking about it since. Please keep in mind that my opinion is coming from someone that would most likely not be in the top ten.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You can go to finals and get the same experience for $10 or whatever they charge spectators. 

As for demoing, almost everyone demos. That has been stated many times in many threads. This isn’t the 90’s anymore when everyone was so damn secretive. Having said that, if it was nothing but old school guys you might still have that problem lol. 

As for the charge of fixing an event, well these money round shows typically have 6-8 judges go through each car. 

Even so the competitor could (however unlikely) give you one tune to listen to and the judges another one. 


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## lowcel (Dec 28, 2014)

pocket5s said:


> You can go to finals and get the same experience for $10 or whatever they charge spectators.
> 
> As for demoing, almost everyone demos. That has been stated many times in many threads. This isn’t the 90’s anymore when everyone was so damn secretive. Having said that, if it was nothing but old school guys you might still have that problem lol.
> 
> ...


Please note that I stated this was my opinion. I am in no way against the idea.

As for the demo thing, was Mineo not mentioned in the original post?

I guess I'll have to look into one of those finals things and check on going to see what they are like.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

lowcel said:


> Please note that I stated this was my opinion. I am in no way against the idea.
> 
> 
> 
> As for the demo thing, was Mineo not mentioned in the original post?




The chance of him or any of those other guys to come out is next to none, so it’s a moot point. 


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## lowcel (Dec 28, 2014)

pocket5s said:


> The chance of him or any of those other guys to come out is next to none, so it’s a moot point.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I apologize for stating my opinion. I'll exit the conversation.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

lowcel said:


> I apologize for stating my opinion. I'll exit the conversation.




Your opinion (concern) was addressed. What more do you want?


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## lowcel (Dec 28, 2014)

I hate forums, impossible to get someone's tone in a conversation. My apologies Robert.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Haha, I think Bruce knows what goes on at competitions and finals since he's been to a few


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## lowcel (Dec 28, 2014)

captainobvious said:


> Haha, I think Bruce knows what goes on at competitions and finals since he's been to a few


Thanks but I know I still have plenty to learn. I also know that I still see some cars locked up at finals that are only listened to by judges and maybe a few close friends. The majority are happy to demo but there are exceptions.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

I'll throw my opinion in the hat and suggest that there should be some sort of classes or divisions based upon total equipment cost (as figured as MSRP of components utilized). I'd like to see how crazy good someone could make a system in the sub-$1000 class.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Absolutely. There are always some exceptions.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

chefhow said:


> While I can appreciate the idea I don't think that people will pay that kind of money for a chance to lose to the likes of the Blazer, the NASCAR(which I thought was up for sale) or the *Regal(which no one has seen in a very long time)*. Just my .02 on it but I could be wrong.


I have listened to it quite recently. But that is neither here nor there. BTW, Gary is behind this..and thinks that we might be able to make it work. Maybe start small, and if any of you naysayers (not aimed at any one person) want to come out, once we have a date, then we can do that.


I keep hearing that "it can't be done", or "it won't ever happen", but how many have actually tried to make it happen? You never know until you try.

I guess I am just a dreamer.

But if I had a 1 in 20 chance to turn my 500 bucks into 10,000...I would be thinking seriously about the possibilities.


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## lowcel (Dec 28, 2014)

SQ Audi said:


> I have listened to it quite recently. But that is neither here nor there. BTW, Gary is behind this..and thinks that we might be able to make it work. Maybe start small, and if any of you naysayers (not aimed at any one person) want to come out, once we have a date, then we can do that.
> 
> 
> I keep hearing that "it can't be done", or "it won't ever happen", but how many have actually tried to make it happen? You never know until you try.
> ...


Anything can happen. There are plenty of competitors out there with plenty of cash to play with.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ Audi said:


> But if I had a 1 in 20 chance to turn my 500 bucks into 10,000...I would be thinking seriously about the possibilities.


Ever heard of a casino?

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## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

GreatLaBroski said:


> I'll throw my opinion in the hat and suggest that there should be some sort of classes or divisions based upon total equipment cost (as figured as MSRP of components utilized). I'd like to see how crazy good someone could make a system in the sub-$1000 class.


That would be fun. Make it a "claimer" format as well.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

truckerfte said:


> That would be fun. Make it a "claimer" format as well.


Yeah, that’d be fun. I’d think the sub $1k and sub $2k brackets would be a lot of fun, since you’d expect everyone to leverage wild installs to make $20 drivers sound like $200 drivers.

Competitions like that are good for the hobby because they tend to push the limit on what can be achieved for the price.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

ErinH said:


> Whew!
> 
> Alright. I think everyone has said their bits regarding their position on competing now, however irrelevant to this particular thread they were. If you guys want to continue debating that topic please take it to a different thread (I'll be happy to merge these posts over) so we can let Joe have this one and get back on topic.
> 
> ...


Thank you buddy. I am going to explore this more. And maybe start planning. I only mentioned Mineo as he is an old school competitor who might(unlikely though) bring his camaro out for a big money show. 

Nick, what casino offers 20 to 1 odds? Anyway, thanks for the comments guys. 

Erin, if you want, you can close this thread. I got the feedback that I was looking for. I would love to discuss this more with you at the Georgia show if you are going to be there. 

Thank you to all who commented, whether it was positive or negative. This was a "thoughts on the subject" thread, so both types of comments are welcomed. 

--Joe


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SQ Audi said:


> I have listened to it quite recently. But that is neither here nor there. BTW, Gary is behind this..and thinks that we might be able to make it work. Maybe start small, and if any of you naysayers (not aimed at any one person) want to come out, once we have a date, then we can do that.
> 
> 
> I keep hearing that "it can't be done", or "it won't ever happen", but how many have actually tried to make it happen? You never know until you try.
> ...



Joe, FWIW, I don't think the thread title/topic you started with - Big Money Event - is a bad idea. Like Bruce, I would be willing to attend more of these kind of shows but it would have to be on the lower end of the budget for me. There may be some high-rollers in the car audio community that can afford a higher buy-in, though. 

However, as I said earlier, your subsequent post(s) where the specifics of gearing this as a two-seat show capturing the essence of ‘old school car audio days’ are where I don’t see it as being a viable option. Like Steve said, things are the way they are now because they just didn’t really work that well back then… or the hobby just evolved. The whole two-seat stereo thing… there’s exactly one car that ever did it exceedingly well. And by exceedingly well I mean that it sounded as good/better from the passenger seat as most top-tier one-seat cars do today. That was Eldridge's NASCAR and we know just how extreme that NASCAR build was. All other attempts are sub-par (to varying levels; Natan’s car is nice but not without compromises). So taking that in to account, I don’t think there are more than maybe a handful of really nice two-seat cars; cars that not only sound good tonally but also image the same or close to it from both seats. That leaves you quite shy of your quota. 

That leaves “today’s two-seat car” which, as Robert said earlier is typically guys who use their one-seat tune from both seats and hope the good (driver’s side) outweighs the bad (passenger side) enough to win the competition. There were fourteen SQ2 competitors at last year’s MECA finals. I’m not sure all of them would kick the $500+ entry fee. They might. If they all attended your show you’re close to the minimum of 20 you wanted. I’m just not sure you could get there. 

As for the opinions on having separate classes… I wouldn’t go that route. I get why people want it. But there’s already orgs for that. I mean, that’s what MECA and IASCA provide. Plus, with adding constraints/classes it just adds confusion to - when I think “big money event” - what would be a kind of ‘no holds barred’ type event where anything goes. 


Ultimately, though, this is your event and I completely understand your motivation here and what you want this to be. I really do. Making it a one-seat only comp seems to be the opposite of that nostalgic, ‘back in my day’ car stereo vibe you’re shooting for here (which isn’t to say that the stereos ‘back then’ were any better than they are today regardless of where you sit). You could make it two-seat only which would pit the “glory days” competitors against “today’s two-seat car”; maybe that’s what you’re wanting? If so, that’s cool. But, again, I’m just not sure you could get enough people to show up and pay that kind of fee. 

However, if you opened this up to be a one-seat competition then it’s akin to the big Money Round shows that take place already. Adding another to the mix certainly seems viable. Basically you’d be taking the current College Station and SVR shows’ model and simply make the entry-fee higher with a much larger payout to the winners. I see nothing wrong with this option. It’s already been proven by the number of people we see entering the MR at the aforementioned events. From there you’d just have to work out the logistics and buy-in… but I think this option is more feasible based on today’s competition scene than the two-seat only one. 

Just my $0.02.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SQ Audi said:


> You see, Aggieland Invitational, one of the only cash shows in the US, is closing it's doors on their invitational series this year, and that leaves a gap. I am wanting to bring back money shows, but, you have to pay to play. With Aggieland, they have on average 35 to 40 SQ cars each year, with a payout of $5000.


Well, CS is back on again, as I'm sure you already know. Which, IMHO, speaks to the success of that type of show as I mentioned above.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

ErinH said:


> Well, CS is back on again, as I'm sure you already know. Which, IMHO, speaks to the success of that type of show as I mentioned above.


Yes sir I do. This will be my last series of shows that I will be judging. I now have a 12 volt company and do not want anyone thinking there is bias. 

If anyone thinks I have bias now, I don't, my speakers are not even in the USA yet.

I just enjoy listening to systems and giving my view of them by writing down some numbers and turning those sheets in.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Joe- 
I would love to see bigger money events bringing out all the best cars. My main concern with viability is the entry cost and the available entrants. 2 seat only eliminates 95% of the cars/competitors on the scene currently.
I personally would love to hear some of the cars people have remembered as being great from yesteryear. I am curious actually how they might stack up against the amazing cars we have out on the competition scene today with all of the advances made over the last 30 years. Sometimes they really are that good and sometimes nostalgia is a hell of a drug :laugh:


Cheers


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

captainobvious said:


> Joe-
> I would love to see bigger money events bringing out all the best cars. My main concern with viability is the entry cost and the available entrants. 2 seat only eliminates 95% of the cars/competitors on the scene currently.
> I personally would love to hear some of the cars people have remembered as being great from yesteryear. I am curious actually how they might stack up against the amazing cars we have out on the competition scene today with all of the advances made over the last 30 years. Sometimes they really are that good and sometimes nostalgia is a hell of a drug :laugh:
> 
> ...


Steve, it will be good seeing you in Georgia again this year. I look forward to hearing your van one more time and chatting it up with you again.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

What would be both sad and funny, is if the format was 2 seat, as suggested by Joe, and all those single seat cars came out.... and won... That would royally piss off the old guard wouldn't it?

Erin mentioned 14 in SQ2 last year. I'd venture to say 1, maybe 2 or those were _actual_ two seat cars, the rest weren't. Heck I even know of one car that was purpose built to be a true two seat competition car and has been doing that for many years, that no longer attempts to have a 2 seat tune. It now has a one seat tune like all the others because it is more advantageous. 

I also agree with Erin that the whole brackets/classes thing is what the orgs are for and the money rounds are meant to be no-holds-barred events. Not that those discussions aren't valuable, but probably not for this type of event. The money rounds currently use the IASCA scoresheet (or at least Aggieland does), sometimes with a few mods like not counting linearity or some other sections, and have custom music selections.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I cleaned up the thread and moved the pro/anti competition convo to a more appropriate thread:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...n/350450-competition-should-i-shouldnt-i.html

Feel free to pick up where you guys left off regarding being for/against competition there.


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## AyOne (Sep 24, 2016)

I could see myself competing for some money. I think that would be a lot of fun but as said before I would definitely want independent judging from people like audio engineer/masterers etc., that don’t compete and have no affiliation with car audio companies.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

AyOne said:


> I could see myself competing for some money. I think that would be a lot of fun but as said before I would definitely want independent judging from people like audio engineer/masterers etc., that don’t compete and have no affiliation with car audio companies.


That can be arranged. I have connections with sound engineers, and with independent judges. I want the highest level of integrity with the highest level of judging.

My judges would be sound engineers, recording engineers, former competitors who currently judge, and probably some of the independent judges from the SQOlogy group.

Engineers are one thing, but unless they have experience judging a car, they most likely won't know what to look for. I plan on having a Judges training the day before the show, so that all new judges, can learn from the current judges, and will listen to the music that will be made available for critical listening and competition.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

SQ Audi said:


> Steve, it will be good seeing you in Georgia again this year. I look forward to hearing your van one more time and chatting it up with you again.



Thanks Joe. I'm really hoping to make it down again this year. I just have to see if the schedule will allow it.


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## criddopher (Apr 3, 2011)

I like the idea, Im no where near good enough to compete, but I would pay to go see the show. 20-40$ a head to get in would help add to the pool/pay for other expenses. Not unreasonable IMO.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

criddopher said:


> I like the idea, Im no where near good enough to compete, but I would pay to go see the show. 20-40$ a head to get in would help add to the pool/pay for other expenses. Not unreasonable IMO.


The idea behind the expensive pay to play is that if I get 10 cars at 500 a piece, then I have 5 grand to give away to the top three. If I have 20 cars, then we are looking at 10,000 to give away. 

I provide the venue and the judges, pay for the hotels for the judges, and take care of the food. If it is a 10,000 dollar prize, then 20 cars minimum would have to be involved, if more, then it is easier to pay off the other expenses.

I have been in contact with one of the top competitors in the country, and he suggested having both one seat and two seat competition. Since it is decidedly more difficult to build for 2 seat and tune, the bigger prize is for that category...along with a bigger entry fee.

Maybe something like this:

500 per 2 seat car, make it a 5000 prize. 1 in 10 chance at over 3 grand for 1st
250 per 1 seat car, make it a 5000 prize. 1 in 20 chance at over 3 grand for 1st.

I am not holding my breath at finding twenty 2 seat cars, but I could easily get over 35 for 1 seat. 

Nothing is written in stone, and these are just thoughts. We could do a 5yr series (3 to 5 shows each year) with the 1st and 2nd place cars in each show in each category compete for 25,000 dollars in cash. 25k for each category. Do you think something like that would gather some interest in the future?

Just throwing out numbers and thoughts. This is a discussion above all.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

You won't find enough 2 seats, but what you will find is a lot of one seats that will do the two seat comp and beat them, assuming to keep to one of the org rules. 

it's been happening at finals for a few years now.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

pocket5s said:


> You won't find enough 2 seats, but what you will find is a lot of one seats that will do the two seat comp and beat them, assuming to keep to one of the org rules.
> 
> it's been happening at finals for a few years now.


thanks mr. naysayer!  I bet I will find enough that will build for 2 seat. I am bringing 2 seat sexy back sir!

Will you be at Aggieland? There are a few true 2 seats cars that will be there. And I am sure that we can get enough to build a true 2 seat car that will also dominate 1 seat competition.

If you don't really have anything positive to say here, please don't respond. When one is negative, it turns others off from the positive.

I am building my car for 2 seat competition. Utilizing stock locations. We will see how it goes. But, for me, my wife wants to enjoy the music much like I do. For that, I may as well build to show 2 seat.


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## lowcel (Dec 28, 2014)

I really hope this works out. I don't know that it will, but I hope it does.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

I will not be at Aggieland. 

I wasn’t being negative so much as pointing out the current state of 2 seat comps. I have nothing against two seat cars (I competed sq2 last year at finals). 

The simple fact is that one seat cars are winning two seat comps because of the way the scoresheets are set up. The result is that, if you follow either org’s scoresheets, sure you’ll get people in that two seat money round, but be aware most will be one seat cars. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

lowcel said:


> I really hope this works out. I don't know that it will, but I hope it does.


The show series is going to happen, possibly in 2020. It will take some doing and planning, but, I believe that we will have it.

I know that Car Audio and Electronics Magazine did something similar to this back in the mid 2000's, and it was a hit. I will also try and get PASMAG involved in some way or another. This is why I am hoping to get this series started in 2020. So much planning.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

pocket5s said:


> I will not be at Aggieland.
> 
> I wasn’t being negative so much as pointing out the current state of 2 seat comps. I have nothing against two seat cars (I competed sq2 last year at finals).
> 
> ...


We won't be using any org score sheets. I have created SQ Rules for USACi, and have some experience in this. I will be working with some of the biggest names in car audio, past and present to create a score sheet for this series only. 

The orgs would want to control it their way, this would be my series, and as such, our own score sheet will be utilized.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SQ Audi said:


> thanks mr. naysayer!  …
> 
> If you don't really have anything positive to say here, please don't respond. When one is negative, it turns others off from the positive.


FWIW, I didn’t take what Robert said to be negative. Moreso, factual based on today’s current competition scene. If ‘they’ are out there then they aren’t joining. I guess maybe that’s the whole point of your high-payout format, though?... to entice those folks to come out and play? I do hope it works for you. But I side with Robert on this, again, just going off what the current landscape is. 

I do wonder, though, if the old gang comes back out will it be 2-seat installs of old? Or will we see people running multi-channel based systems with center channels - to help remedy the near side bias and what ultimately then makes a 2-seat car of today a 1-seat car with good tonality from both seats (like Robert was saying)?


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

A modern 2-seat vehicle will almost certainly differ in its approach from an "old school" 2 seater thanks to innovation and new technologies.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

ErinH said:


> If ‘they’ are out there then they aren’t joining. I guess maybe that’s the whole point of your high-payout format, though?... to entice those folks to come out and play? I do hope it works for you. But I side with Robert on this, again, just going off what the current landscape is.
> 
> I do wonder, though, if the old gang comes back out will it be 2-seat installs of old? Or will we see people running multi-channel based systems with center channels - to help remedy the near side bias and what ultimately then makes a 2-seat car of today a 1-seat car with good tonality from both seats (like Robert was saying)?


It isn't just for the old gang to come back out. Some of the current gang are trying their hand at 2 seat competition. 

But like I said, I am pretty sure I can get 10 2 seat competitors to come out and play, and the lower entry fee would be for the 1 seat competitors to come out and play. I would love to see Eric Stevens build a horn car and come compete. I would love to see Gary Biggs bring his Regal back out and compete. 

These competitions wouldn't just be sound only. I think installation would be another aspect of this. Because these will be show cars, not just daily drivers that are 1 seat competitors. I still believe that there are some stores out there that are itching to have a format where they can compete with 2 seats in a store show car or demo car. 

Maybe it is a pipe dream, but, starting my own speaker company was one too...and look what has happened since then.


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