# CES 2018 - Facts, Rumors and Outright Lies



## rton20s

It is that time of year again. Christmas looms large and CES is right around the corner. 12V manufacturers have begun sending out press releases and "leaking" news and product announcements on social media. 

What are you hoping to see this year?

What is long over due?

Who will have the most ridiculous vaporware?

Who do you think will be the biggest surprise?

Who/what will be the talk of the show?


I'll be fortunate enough to attend again this year. So, if there is something you want to see, or anything you want additional information on post it up and I'll see what I can do.


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## rton20s

And, a few press releases to kick us off...

https://www.ceoutlook.com/2017/12/13/metra-adds-ax-dsp-harness-toyota/

https://www.ceoutlook.com/2017/12/14/metra-debut-100-products/

https://www.ceoutlook.com/2017/12/19/maxxsonics-displays-ces/

https://www.ceoutlook.com/2017/12/14/phoenix-gold-intros-new-amp-feature/

https://www.ceoutlook.com/2017/12/18/ces-preview-audiocontrols-first-micro-amps/

https://www.ceoutlook.com/2017/12/20/pac-amppro-now-supports-vehicles/

Metra Electronics to Debut New Integration Products from Axxess at CES - 12 Volt News - Fresh Industry News Since 199412 Volt News – Fresh Industry News Since 1994

Metra to Debut Aftermarket Safety, Integration, and Radio Replacement Solutions at CES - 12 Volt News - Fresh Industry News Since 199412 Volt News – Fresh Industry News Since 1994

Phoenix Gold Releases Revolutionary Ti3 Amplifiers with POWER SHIFT - 12 Volt News - Fresh Industry News Since 199412 Volt News – Fresh Industry News Since 1994

iBeam to Showcase New 360 Degree 3D View Camera System at 2018 CES - 12 Volt News - Fresh Industry News Since 199412 Volt News – Fresh Industry News Since 1994

Cadence to Unveil a Spectacular New Booth at CES 2018 - 12 Volt News - Fresh Industry News Since 199412 Volt News – Fresh Industry News Since 1994


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## Dan750iL

_What are you hoping to see this year?_ 
Zapco finally announcing a firm release date for the new DSPs

_What is long over due?_ 
See question 1.

_Who will have the most ridiculous vaporware?_ 
Dunno but always fun to see.

_Who do you think will be the biggest surprise?_ 
No clue

_Who/what will be the talk of the show?_ 
Ask me again after the show.


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## Truthunter

Still looking for an factory amp replacement solution for Toyota/Lexus... Looks like PAC will have a solution before Idatalink has one with the Maestro AR.


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## Truthunter

rton20s said:


> https://www.ceoutlook.com/2017/12/14/phoenix-gold-intros-new-amp-feature/
> 
> Phoenix Gold Releases Revolutionary Ti3 Amplifiers with POWER SHIFT - 12 Volt News - Fresh Industry News Since 199412 Volt News – Fresh Industry News Since 1994


Huh, these articles both state that PGs top of the line amp will be the Ti3. I guess the Elite line is getting dropped.


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## Hillbilly SQ

That power shift on the PG amps will be nice. I've been dreaming of an amp like this for years.


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## rton20s

Truthunter said:


> Huh, these articles both state that PGs top of the line amp will be the Ti3. I guess the Elite line is getting dropped.


I was a little surprised to see that as well. And most of these news sites tend to just publish manufacturer press releases with very little editing. That seems to be the case here, as the verbiage from John Catalano (Phoenix Gold/AAMP Global) states the same thing. 



Hillbilly SQ said:


> That power shift on the PG amps will be nice. I've been dreaming of an amp like this for years.


I agree. That is one of the coolest features of the Ti3 line. I love the idea of staggered power, but not everyone does. Depending on how well this works out, this could be a great new trend in mobile amplification.


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## chaforjohn

I hear that Alpine will finally be updating their entire lineup of headunits, including the 149BT, which is long overdue IMO.


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## Focused4door

Dan750iL said:


> _What are you hoping to see this year?_
> Zapco finally announcing a firm release date for the new DSPs
> 
> _What is long over due?_
> See question 1.
> 
> _Who will have the most ridiculous vaporware?_
> Dunno but always fun to see.
> 
> _Who do you think will be the biggest surprise?_
> No clue
> 
> _Who/what will be the talk of the show?_
> Ask me again after the show.


Zapco DSP amplifier combo and a HAT L2SE is on my wish list.


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## rton20s

And some more info has started to roll out. Just over a week away. 

https://www.ceoutlook.com/2017/12/27/ds18-intros-first-sound-quality-component-speakers/

https://www.ceoutlook.com/2017/12/28/kicker-intros-kma-marine-amps/

https://www.ceoutlook.com/2017/12/28/kenwood-show-wireless-android-auto-ces/

And the probably the first thing in this thread that I am excited about...

New top tier amps from Zapco...
https://www.facebook.com/pg/ZapcoCarAudio/photos/?tab=album&album_id=10156019340597436


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## FlyingEagle

I am curious about the ARC Audio ARC series AMPS with DSP. Catalog listed for summer 2017, management said stay tuned for CES 2018.

Catalog listing for reference:

http://content.arcaudio.com/pdfs/catalogs/2017_Arc_Audio_Catalog.pdf


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## Golden Ear

rton20s said:


> And some more info has started to roll out. Just over a week away.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.ceoutlook.com/2017/12/27/ds18-intros-first-sound-quality-component-speakers/
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.ceoutlook.com/2017/12/28/kicker-intros-kma-marine-amps/
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.ceoutlook.com/2017/12/28/kenwood-show-wireless-android-auto-ces/
> 
> 
> 
> And the probably the first thing in this thread that I am excited about...
> 
> 
> 
> New top tier amps from Zapco...
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/pg/ZapcoCarAudio/photos/?tab=album&album_id=10156019340597436




I’m excited about the new Zapco amps too


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## SkizeR

Ds18 releasing "sound quality" components... lol

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## diy.phil

The AudioControl boxes look interesting! (Might work for my new project/vehicle!)


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## EricP72

SkizeR said:


> Ds18 releasing "sound quality" components... lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


I see I wasn't the only one to get a good laugh from that!


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## rton20s

Less than a week to go!

https://www.ceoutlook.com/2018/01/02/massive-audio-intros-boa-subwoofers/

I know this is the one most of DIYMA has been waiting for...
https://www.ceoutlook.com/2018/01/02/boss-b-g-shows-2018-line-largest-suite-usa/


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## Golden Ear

Yes!! Boss!! 


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## rton20s

Golden Ear said:


> Yes!! Boss!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I knew you were a fan.


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## Golden Ear

rton20s said:


> I knew you were a fan.




Actually, Boss is the very first amp I ever bought. It was back in 2000 and it was actually a solid piece. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rton20s

Golden Ear said:


> Actually, Boss is the very first amp I ever bought. It was back in 2000 and it was actually a solid piece.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is how I knew. I remember you mentioning that in previous posts.


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## dave05

Its been confirmed that both Soundstream and Boss Audio will be premiering an Amazon Alexa headunit.

Not sure why someone would want Alexa in their headunit when you have CarPlay or Android Auto.


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## rton20s

"Alexa... How can I sell my products in a nation that sponsors terrorists without getting caught by the federal government?"


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## lurch

Golden Ear said:


> Actually, Boss is the very first amp I ever bought. It was back in 2000 and it was actually a solid piece.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Which boss amp was it ?
I have a phantom four channel 2400 watt ( LOL ) in reserve just in case my
old alpine quits. 
I ran the phantom for a month or two and it seemed ok. 
It's a nice " looking " piece if nothing else ...


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## sirbOOm

How about making the price of DSPs <$400, including 8 channels or robust center channel processing, and making them significantly smaller (small enough to put behind a dash as, quite frankly, it's often a "3rd amp" you don't have room for especially with all the connections it has. And no separate boxes for the factory integration part and then the DSP part - it should do it all like they have been for years. And they ALL should have a built in RTA so I can see what the factory signal was. And they ALL should come with a microphone that will auto-time align, at least, with auto features being completely turn-off-able since the snoody among us will not like the result, but at least it gets most people close. Just for time alignment. I don't need it to tune with a cheap microphone... just to do the time alignment.

And I would also like to see speaker companies taking advantage of 3D modeling and printing technology and, by request and at a premium price, providing "integration-style" speakers for a wider range of vehicles at least up to their upper-midrange line up (so like, for Focal... Focal Flax). The biggest barrier to proper installation is experience. The biggest barrier to people buying higher-end equipment is the cost of that experience. Eliminate the variable of having to build baffles and all kinds of extra tools and cutting your finger off. Just sell low-production, 3D printed solutions. Work with the car companies to get the CAD design or partner more with Cruchfield or authorized dealers for templates for each car, then mass produce them and sell them as packages. It cannot be THAT FRIGGIN HARD at this point.

And finally... I feel like there are TOO MANY car audio brand speaker options at this point. I'd really like to see a little compression of the options by brand and more focus on installation enablement. I realize this is somewhat wishful thinking, but... car audio has gotten hard to do. Let's find ways to make it easier or watch the whole thing die.


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## Golden Ear

lurch said:


> Which boss amp was it ?
> 
> I have a phantom four channel 2400 watt ( LOL ) in reserve just in case my
> 
> old alpine quits.
> 
> I ran the phantom for a month or two and it seemed ok.
> 
> It's a nice " looking " piece if nothing else ...




I think it was a Boss Rage REV-885. It supposedly did 600x2 at 2ohms and cost me $200. I might have the ‘885’ part wrong but the rest is correct. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR

sirbOOm said:


> How about making the price of DSPs <$400, including ... robust center channel processing,


unfortunately this isnt really possible. proper center channel processing needs to be licensed since its patented. licensing is not cheap


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## PPI_GUY

rton20s said:


> "Alexa... How can I sell my products in a nation that sponsors terrorists without getting caught by the federal government?"


Alexa: "You'll need to contact Epsilon. Oh wait, nevermind."


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## Brules

Truthunter said:


> Huh, these articles both state that PGs top of the line amp will be the Ti3. I guess the Elite line is getting dropped.


Looks like it:



> With this launch, the Ti series will take its place at the top of the Phoenix Gold range, as the preeminent audiophile-class amplifiers


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## rton20s

Steering wheel controls!
https://www.ceoutlook.com/2018/01/03/metra-improves-steering-wheel-control/

Audiomobile and Eton avoid booth fees!
https://www.ceoutlook.com/2018/01/04/audiomobile-winter-showcase-debuts-w-las-vegas/
*(But... Elite 7 and Stealth 8 midbass drivers? Interested!)*

Fancy dash kits!
https://www.ceoutlook.com/2018/01/04/metra-intro-new-dashboard-kit-line-ces/

They may be small, but Audiocontrol claims to know how to use it...
https://www.ceoutlook.com/2018/01/04/audiocontrol-announces-new-micro-amp-specifications/

More AX DSP harnesses from Axxess...
https://www.ceoutlook.com/2018/01/04/metra-intros-ax-dsp-packages-hyundai-gm-new-t-harnesses/

Alexa... Why does my head unit take an hour to boot and sound like garbage?
https://www.ceoutlook.com/2018/01/03/first-alexa-car-radio-due-ces/
https://www.ceoutlook.com/2018/01/04/heres-next-alexa-head-unit/

Coming to a flea market near you?
Logic Soundlab to Show Revamped Line at CES - 12 Volt News - Fresh Industry News Since 199412 Volt News – Fresh Industry News Since 1994


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## Brules

Will anyone attending CES be posting pics etc? Hope so!


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## rton20s

Brules said:


> Will anyone attending CES be posting pics etc? Hope so!


I plan to. As much as I can. I will be helping to man the MECA booth. 

If there is a brand or product anyone is specifically interested in seeing photos of, I'll do what I can to get by there. JT is also usually pretty good about posting photos as well. But, I think that is usually on his FB page.


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## bnae38

Anything new with gan making it out this year?


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## Second Skin

Don't forget to check out the *CES Showdown 2018* Presented By Kicker and JY Power at Texas Station Hotel & Casino 2101 Texas Star Ln, 89032. Saturday, January 13 at 10 AM - 9 PM PST 

USACI 4x Regional with new 2018 record runs by Vegas Style SPL
3X MECA SPL and 2X SQ by MECA CA
2x Dbdrag by teambassick.com James Kealoha Kaliloa

Have an awesome time in Vegas everyone!!!


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## robtr8

subd


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## Brules

Would be awesome to be able to attend CES some year!


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## adriancp

Anybody see this post on the Arc Facebook page? In the comments they said it's a replacement for the Black series and not made in China.
















Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk


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## aholland1198

adriancp said:


> Anybody see this post on the Arc Facebook page? In the comments they said it's a replacement for the Black series and not made in China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk




Wonder what the marketing is on those dust caps? 


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## benny z

*bump


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## pocket5s

sirbOOm said:


> How about making the price of DSPs <$400, including 8 channels or robust center channel processing, and making them significantly smaller (small enough to put behind a dash as, quite frankly, it's often a "3rd amp" you don't have room for especially with all the connections it has. And no separate boxes for the factory integration part and then the DSP part - it should do it all like they have been for years. And they ALL should have a built in RTA so I can see what the factory signal was. And they ALL should come with a microphone that will auto-time align, at least, with auto features being completely turn-off-able since the snoody among us will not like the result, but at least it gets most people close. Just for time alignment. I don't need it to tune with a cheap microphone... just to do the time alignment.


The JL TwK comes close at just over $400 street price. Beyond that, the development cost of software is the really expensive part of a DSP. 

I believe the OEM integration should be separate as not every install needs it, so why pay for it?



sirbOOm said:


> And I would also like to see speaker companies taking advantage of 3D modeling and printing technology and, by request and at a premium price, providing "integration-style" speakers for a wider range of vehicles at least up to their upper-midrange line up (so like, for Focal... Focal Flax). The biggest barrier to proper installation is experience. The biggest barrier to people buying higher-end equipment is the cost of that experience. Eliminate the variable of having to build baffles and all kinds of extra tools and cutting your finger off. Just sell low-production, 3D printed solutions. Work with the car companies to get the CAD design or partner more with Cruchfield or authorized dealers for templates for each car, then mass produce them and sell them as packages. It cannot be THAT FRIGGIN HARD at this point.


From a manufacturing perspective, 3d printing is horribly expensive, same for the modeling.


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## cvjoint

FlyingEagle said:


> I am curious about the ARC Audio ARC series AMPS with DSP. Catalog listed for summer 2017, management said stay tuned for CES 2018.
> 
> Catalog listing for reference:
> 
> http://content.arcaudio.com/pdfs/catalogs/2017_Arc_Audio_Catalog.pdf


So no new Alpine head with optical out and Arc drops their best amps, the Kar series. 

The audio world has been on a decline for at least half a decade now. Only thing we get is ways to tap in our phone screens, bigger screens, and efficiency at the price of performance. Yuck.


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## bnae38

cvjoint said:


> Arc drops their best amps, the Kar series.



 Agreed. 

Maybe the pile of them i'm sitting on will appreciate


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## JI808

Brax Helix Breaks With Hybrid Audio

Audiotec Fischer, manufacturer of the Brax, Helix and Match mobile electronics brands announced its products are no longer be distributed in the US by Hybrid Audio Technologies.

Audiotec Fischer broke ties with Hybrid Audio December 31. The supplier is now looking for a new US distributor for its high end car audio products.

Gudrun Fischer, COO of the company would like to thank Hybrid Audio Technologies for their efforts.

“A new distribution strategy will be launched shortly that will allow Audiotec Fischer to support our loyal partners and to grow our brands in the USA market.” Heinz Fischer stated.

CEO Julian Fischer added “this new distribution model will allow us to focus on bringing our culture and strategies to the USA with a clear and focused approach. We are very excited with the plans for this new industry reference program and for the exciting new “Made in Germany” products that we will deliver throughout 2018. We would like to thank our partners for their support throughout the years and look forward to a very exciting transition!”

Audiotec Fischer will announce the details of its new strategy shortly after the 2018 Consumer Electronics Show to be held in Las Vegas from January 9th thru 12th. Dealer partners or sales representatives that require immediate support are encouraged to email Audiotec Fischer directly at [email protected]

Hybrid Audio stated, “All of us at Hybrid Audio Technologies would like to wish the very best to the Audiotec Fischer family as they embark on their new distribution model. We were proud to have been part of the successes of the brand during our tenure as distributor in the USA.”

Hybrid Audio became the exclusive US distributor for Brax and Helix in 2016. Prior to that, Rockford was the US distributor for the brands.


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## SkizeR

adriancp said:


> Anybody see this post on the Arc Facebook page? In the comments they said it's a replacement for the Black series and not made in China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk


the black series wasnt made in china. they were rebadged SB Acoustics products made in indonesia. These look nice though


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## SkizeR

JI808 said:


> Brax Helix Breaks With Hybrid Audio
> 
> Audiotec Fischer, manufacturer of the Brax, Helix and Match mobile electronics brands announced its products are no longer be distributed in the US by Hybrid Audio Technologies.
> 
> Audiotec Fischer broke ties with Hybrid Audio December 31. The supplier is now looking for a new US distributor for its high end car audio products.
> 
> Gudrun Fischer, COO of the company would like to thank Hybrid Audio Technologies for their efforts.
> 
> “A new distribution strategy will be launched shortly that will allow Audiotec Fischer to support our loyal partners and to grow our brands in the USA market.” Heinz Fischer stated.
> 
> CEO Julian Fischer added “this new distribution model will allow us to focus on bringing our culture and strategies to the USA with a clear and focused approach. We are very excited with the plans for this new industry reference program and for the exciting new “Made in Germany” products that we will deliver throughout 2018. We would like to thank our partners for their support throughout the years and look forward to a very exciting transition!”
> 
> Audiotec Fischer will announce the details of its new strategy shortly after the 2018 Consumer Electronics Show to be held in Las Vegas from January 9th thru 12th. Dealer partners or sales representatives that require immediate support are encouraged to email Audiotec Fischer directly at [email protected]
> 
> Hybrid Audio stated, “All of us at Hybrid Audio Technologies would like to wish the very best to the Audiotec Fischer family as they embark on their new distribution model. We were proud to have been part of the successes of the brand during our tenure as distributor in the USA.”
> 
> Hybrid Audio became the exclusive US distributor for Brax and Helix in 2016. Prior to that, Rockford was the US distributor for the brands.


****..

edit: sorry, but that was the only thing that went through my mind while reading that


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## benny z

Agree with the above sentiment.


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## SkizeR

who the hell is going to to a better job than the guys at hybrid?


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## benny z

SkizeR said:


> who the hell is going to to a better job than the guys at hybrid?



Yup.

Piss poor decision on AF’s part IMHO. They just shot themselves in the foot. Hybrid did a great job bringing their product to market and offered world class tech support.

Oh well. Bye Felicia.


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## Golden Ear

SkizeR said:


> who the hell is going to to a better job than the guys at hybrid?




I wonder if all the Brax/Helix nuthugging will die down now?*♂


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## SkizeR

Golden Ear said:


> I wonder if all the Brax/Helix nuthugging will die down now?*♂
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Had nothing to really do with hybrid. Had to do with, well, everything about it

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## adriancp

SkizeR said:


> the black series wasnt made in china. they were rebadged SB Acoustics products made in indonesia. These look nice though














Yeah I knew that. Was just repeating what I read in the comments. Found it interesting the way they were promoting the “tooled from scratch, exclusive, not made in China” thing after the debacle about the rebadged SB Acoustics speakers. Seems like they’re really trying to distance themselves from that. 


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## Golden Ear

adriancp said:


> Yeah I knew that. Was just repeating what I read in the comments. Found it interesting the way they were promoting the “tooled from scratch, exclusive, not made in China” thing after the debacle about the rebadged SB Acoustics speakers. Seems like they’re really trying to distance themselves from that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




I was thinking the same thing 


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## JI808

SkizeR said:


> ****..
> 
> edit: sorry, but that was the only thing that went through my mind while reading that





benny z said:


> Agree with the above sentiment.


Agreed.

My words were "Well, ****."


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## JI808

Golden Ear said:


> I wonder if all the Brax/Helix nuthugging will die down now?*♂
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nuthugging?

They're the best units on the market. Having the guys at Hybrid handle distro has been painless. They're awesome to work with.

I hope those of us that were carrying the AF gear won't have trouble doing so going forward. Would be a shame.

When I started my own place I wanted to have some of the best stuff on the market that people could actually afford. When it came to processors the Helix stuff was a no-brainer. 

While I can work with any processor, I would really hate to lose Helix and the rest of the AF lineup due to a new distributor/new rules.


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## SkizeR

X2 on what Jason said. The helix is hands down the best processor on the market. Yes there's plenty of nuthugging on the market, but preferring the better product isn't exactly nuthugging. It's wanting the most features, reliability, ease of use, and ergonomics of the software that promote easier/better tuning. 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## JVD240

ARC has some interesting stuff going on.

They posted a pic of a "surround" DSP interface on their FB page.


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## benny z

It was predicted upmixers were going to be the next big thing The Network was going to push in The Network episode of the SQOLOGY podcast. Jus sayin.


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## JVD240

benny z said:


> It was predicted upmixers were going to be the next big thing The Network was going to push in The Network episode of the SQOLOGY podcast. Jus sayin.


That's what I heard...

When I listened to Pt.1 and Pt.2 

Keep up the good work, man! I enjoy listening/learning.


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## JI808

benny z said:


> It was predicted upmixers were going to be the next big thing The Network was going to push in The Network episode of the SQOLOGY podcast. Jus sayin.


Yup. Between the PS8 Pro and another unit I'm anxiously waiting on things will only get better.


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## chithead

Anyone else heard about an Alpine processor debuted there that supposedly ties into an OEM system with 12 channels of output? I want to hear more about that.


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## Mlarson67

^that right there!


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## ErinH

SkizeR said:


> ****..
> 
> edit: sorry, but that was the only thing that went through my mind while reading that



Yea, I'm curious how that's going to affect current dealers. Will they just transition over to the new Helix distribution system or will they essentially have to start the process over? 




Benny Z said:


> Agree with the above sentiment.


Man, how you gonna get the new BRAX DSP now that you won't have that hookup pricing!? I already knew I couldn't afford it but I at least figured you would be getting it. Sell a kidney, I reckon'. 




Golden Ear said:


> I wonder if all the Brax/Helix nuthugging will die down now&#55358;&#56631;*♂


Helix has been consistently making the best (IMHO) DSP for the last 4 years or so. 




JVD240 said:


> ARC has some interesting stuff going on.
> 
> They posted a pic of a "surround" DSP interface on their FB page.


Was having a convo with friends about that this morning. I'm curious to know what upmixer they're using. If it's legit, then I'm really curious what that will do to Andy's market share. As it stands now, Andy is probably the most likely to produce a well-thought-out surround upmixer given his efforts and the fact that he's working with Penteo to develop it. So that's why I'm curious as to how this will unfold.





chithead said:


> Anyone else heard about an Alpine processor debuted there that supposedly ties into an OEM system with 12 channels of output? I want to hear more about that.


At this point I just wish Alpine would go away. It seems with their focus on OEM with the PerfectFit (or whatever it's called) they continue to put out more and more crap. And TBH, their "PerfectFit " stuff doesn't seem that appealing. They're treading RF territory... heck, they may already be there.


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## benny z

ErinH said:


> Man, how you gonna get the new BRAX DSP now that you won't have that hookup pricing!? I already knew I couldn't afford it but I at least figured you would be getting it. Sell a kidney, I reckon'.



Actually, I paid for it in full early last Spring. Pretty sure I don’t even want it now. Not because I’m salty about this latest development - ok, maybe a little... but mainly because I requested updates directly from Audiotec Fischer personally several times last year, specifically as a paid customer, and received ZERO updates - not even a courtesy response - about that fine piece of vaporware.

I think it’s time to move on.

Lots of other new intriguing processing pieces coming to market.


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## JVD240

ErinH said:


> Was having a convo with friends about that this morning. I'm curious to know what upmixer they're using. If it's legit, then I'm really curious what that will do to Andy's market share. As it stands now, Andy is probably the most likely to produce a well-thought-out surround upmixer given his efforts and the fact that he's working with Penteo to develop it. So that's why I'm curious as to how this will unfold.


Yeah, I was wondering the same. Seems Andy already posed the question on their post. Lol.

I'm *patiently* awaiting the Audiofrog unit. I've seen that some beta units are floating around so they've gotta be somewhat close.


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## I800C0LLECT

Been very disappointed in Alpine myself. I've been waiting on Andy or Helix to introduce a processor with more upmix options. I love the MS-8 but it's long in the tooth.

I wouldn't mind looking at add-ons with the factory amp at this point. With the Android HU made by Clarion in my Honda, maybe somebody should look into what it would take for software processing apps...a la carte even. Hrmm. Might need to break into it myself 

Can't wait to see what comes out


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## chithead

ErinH said:


> At this point I just wish Alpine would go away. It seems with their focus on OEM with the PerfectFit (or whatever it's called) they continue to put out more and more crap. And TBH, their "PerfectFit " stuff doesn't seem that appealing. They're treading RF territory... heck, they may already be there.


----------



## chithead

ErinH said:


> Was having a convo with friends about that this morning. I'm curious to know what upmixer they're using. If it's legit, then I'm really curious what that will do to Andy's market share. As it stands now, Andy is probably the most likely to produce a well-thought-out surround upmixer given his efforts and the fact that he's working with Penteo to develop it. So that's why I'm curious as to how this will unfold.


This.



JVD240 said:


> I'm *patiently* awaiting the Audiofrog unit. I've seen that some beta units are floating around so they've gotta be somewhat close.


This.



I800C0LLECT said:


> I've been waiting on Andy or Helix to introduce a processor with more upmix options. I love the MS-8 but it's long in the tooth.


And muddafuggin this!!!


----------



## bbfoto

JVD240 said:


> ARC has some interesting stuff going on.
> 
> They posted a pic of a "surround" DSP interface on their FB page.


That's cool and all, but too bad that the Remote Control that actually enables the Surround Upmixer features will be vaporware for another 3-4 years. DOH!   :surprised: 

Sorry, I had to. :blush: 

...As a disclaimer, I own a lot of other ARC Audio gear and absolutely love it!

But same as _ErinH_, Andy @ Audiofrog, and others here, I'm honestly _really_ interested in what upmixer technology they will be licensing & using???

I'm also interested to hear more about ARC Audio's new RS speaker line. One thing I noticed right off the bat is that (IMO) the spider on the RS 6.0 looks a bit too small in diameter to facilitate a decent amount of excursion...in fact, it looks like the same soft part and size as on the smaller RS 4.0? (it's just a quick observation... I'm obviously not a transducer engineer and don't know how much of a limiting factor that may or may not be).


And I had the same response as everyone else concerning the Helix/Audiotech-Fischer U.S.A. distributor decision!   Maybe there was something going on behind the scenes that we're not privy to, but I honestly don't know of another company that has the reach and reputation in this community that could have (or will) represent and service & support the brand better.

Plus, it was definitely disappointing to hear about _bennyz_' direct experience with Audiotech-Fisher regarding the new Brax processor that he pre-ordered.  Sure, I wouldn't expect them to divulge any of their circuit design, exact feature set, or operational/component specifics, but at least some correspondence saying, "here's where we're at... Such and such daughter board has been completed and is now in testing, and the software module for the EQ section is up and running...Next will be the yada yada yada. More to come".


----------



## SkizeR

bbfoto said:


> And I had the same response as everyone else concerning the Helix/Audiotech-Fischer U.S.A. distributor decision!   Maybe there was something going on behind the scenes that we're not privy to, but I honestly don't know of another company that has the reach and reputation in this community that could have (or will) represent and service & support the brand better.


me and ben actually talked about this. Guessing it has to do with that Audiotech Fischer has so many products other than the Helix DSP that just isnt exactly pushed by Hybrid because it directly competes with hybrids offerings. Speakers, amps, etc etc. I email ATF and they said they will be announcing their new distribution model next week. Im trying to stay positive about it since im a dealer and its all i like to install since im not a fan of any other processor currently on the market. Not by a long shot compared to the helix. It just checks every box for me. So, im trying to stay positive, but im worried. As of right now i have no access to the processors i want unless they have it in stock. Theyre out of directors so im screwed on that. No wonder stock was so low or even out the past few weeks on some items.


----------



## Coppertone

^^^ Oh wow I’m really sorry to hear this, but I am sure it will come back stronger then before.


----------



## SkizeR

What really sucks for the ATF dealers is that we dont have not only Hybrid as a whole, but Josiah Buwalda. That kid ****ing killed it. I cant thank him enough for the support and help from him over the past few months.


----------



## brumledb

Yeah, seems like AF may have made a tactical error with this decision. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JVD240

Time will tell. As an outsider looking in, I can see why AF wouldn't want Hybrid selling their products.

I would always be concerned with what speakers/amps were being pushed with my DSP. DSP is a small part of their line.


----------



## ErinH

I remember about 7 years ago, or so, RF was distributing ATF. That's how the first set of their DSPs made their way over here. Less than two years ago they switched over to distribution via Hybrid and now they're off that. So, maybe this is a trend for them. I am curious if they'll go with distribution from another company like they had been or if they'll have their own distribution model set up.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

From the outside looking in having another car audio company push your product is setting yourself up for a heavily biased relationship.


----------



## brumledb

JVD240 said:


> Time will tell. As an outsider looking in, I can see why AF wouldn't want Hybrid selling their products.
> 
> 
> 
> I would always be concerned with what speakers/amps were being pushed with my DSP. DSP is a small part of their line.




True. I am probably just looking at it through the more narrow lens of the different level of technical support I received when dealing with RF vs HAT. Hopefully their next distributor will have the same level of technical support. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bbfoto

ErinH said:


> I remember about 7 years ago, or so, RF was distributing ATF. That's how the first set of their DSPs made their way over here. Less than two years ago they switched over to distribution via Hybrid and now they're off that. So, maybe this is a trend for them. I am curious if they'll go with distribution from another company like they had been or if they'll have their own distribution model set up.


I have a hunch that they'll set up their own distribution/U.S. subsidiary. If they do, they need to make sure someone extremely knowledgeable about the product with excellent English communication skills is in place for tech & customer support.

I think the problem with finding and using a GOOD, & well-established U.S. car audio distributor is that they will always be offering & representing competing brands and product lines.

To discuss further, I think we should move this to its own thread.


----------



## BMW Alpina

I had been looking for this thread at General Discussion session for the past few days,
and no wonder I can't find it... 
Rookie error on my behalf 
Sub...


----------



## kouklo

It wont let me post a link but have you guys seen what Ford came out with at CES? Hi-Res Audio for upcoming cars.


----------



## bbfoto

kouklo said:


> It wont let me post a link but have you guys seen what Ford came out with at CES? Hi-Res Audio for upcoming cars.


Welcome to DIYMA!

That's great news, and a big step in the right direction, but I'm doubtful that any of us would actually hear the difference or advantages of Hi-Res audio in any OEM factory system that Ford produces. I'd love to be proven wrong, though!


----------



## kouklo

bbfoto said:


> Welcome to DIYMA!
> 
> That's great news, and a big step in the right direction, but I'm doubtful that any of us would actually hear the difference or advantages of Hi-Res audio in any OEM factory system that Ford produces. I'd love to be proven wrong, though!


Im still a noob at this stuff, I have A LOT of learning to do from all of you still but I think its safe to assume that even I could make a system that would probably sound better than something they would make. LOL
Still tho, like you said, it's a big step in the right direction.


----------



## cvjoint

Alpine just released their new processor, lo and behold the 0850S:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NfZhuvSNx0

I've already thrown in some questions for the Alpine techs, let's see what they know. 

As far as I can tell it's a hit and a miss, they added 4 channels for a total of 12 , a wireless phone interface, and some built in amplifier power but seemed to have lost all 2-5 channel upmix algos, 5.1, phase correction.

The DSP D/A chips seem to be on par with the H800.


----------



## benny z




----------



## nineball76

adriancp said:


> Anybody see this post on the Arc Facebook page? In the comments they said it's a replacement for the Black series and not made in China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk


Also mentioned in the comments section, was that an 8" was in the works for the lineup as well. I'm curious about their sizing though, like their Black 4.0 was labeled a 4" but was actually nearly 5" in diameter, is the new 3.0 actually 3" or more like 4"?


----------



## rayray881

benny z said:


>


Lmao! Now I know why I never supported these folks.


----------



## adriancp

Between Facebook and here, I've seen "some" cool new stuff from CES, nothing freaking awesome yet though. Have we seen about all the new stuff there is to see or will there be more debuts to come?

Something I would like to see are the new Audiomobile products. Hopefully someone can grab some pics and info. I think it was CE News that had a press release about a 8" slim midbass and some other new goodies. Sidenote: if they would update their website it would be great. Just my thoughts. 

So if anyone reading this is at CES and you have time, I for one would love some Audiomobile pics/ updates. 

Thanks in advance 

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk


----------



## cvjoint

FYI, I received the following info from Alpine:
"Thanks for the support! The PXE-0805S is designed as a stereo system, the sound is modified by the user (no processing), the phone app can change the master output volume, the preouts and powered channels operate concurrently, and it is not AptX, it is Bluetooth 4.0...Additional info coming very soon!﻿"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NfZhuvSNx0

So the new processor is manual tune only with no 5.1 either discrete or mixed. I'm sticking with my H800.


----------



## Mic10is

Prior to RF distributing AF products,
The Autofile run by Peter Lufrano was the US distributor from around 02-05. Brax and Helix started to get some decent exposure in the US market and then literally overnight pulled the plug from Peter. Peter moved on and distributed Genesis and some other brands but this really seems to be the AF distribution model. Stay with someone for around 3 yrs. Gain market share and then Start over.






ErinH said:


> I remember about 7 years ago, or so, RF was distributing ATF. That's how the first set of their DSPs made their way over here. Less than two years ago they switched over to distribution via Hybrid and now they're off that. So, maybe this is a trend for them. I am curious if they'll go with distribution from another company like they had been or if they'll have their own distribution model set up.


----------



## Babs

SkizeR said:


> What really sucks for the ATF dealers is that we dont have not only Hybrid as a whole, but Josiah Buwalda. That kid ****ing killed it. I cant thank him enough for the support and help from him over the past few months.


I'd have to agree, HAT did me right on the occasion I needed support.


----------



## Babs

adriancp said:


> Anybody see this post on the Arc Facebook page? In the comments they said it's a replacement for the Black series and not made in China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk


SB Acoustics drivers they were using before weren't made in China also.. Perspective. I imagine they worked nicely with a speaker vendor but were adamant the speakers had to look unique unlike anything else on the planet because they took it on the chin over the Black (SB Acoustics) drivers that everyone and their brothers called them out on.. Here mainly. So that probably explains those crazy dust covers.


----------



## Babs

benny z said:


> Actually, I paid for it in full early last Spring. Pretty sure I don’t even want it now. Not because I’m salty about this latest development - ok, maybe a little... but mainly because *I requested updates directly from Audiotec Fischer personally several times last year, specifically as a paid customer, and received ZERO updates - not even a courtesy response* - about that fine piece of vaporware.


Whoah! That'd kinda give anyone a legit reason for feeling at least legitimately a little salty. Yeah that's one thing about any company.. A company can be a significant player in a market and make stellar product, but mess up with the customer. Bad press spreads faster than a cold in elementary school. I suspect, when we really think about the number of DSP's in recent years, ATF might have a case of growing pains.. These are the types of symptoms, overpromising and underdelivering. Can happen to any great company at times.


----------



## chithead

Babs said:


> So that probably explains those crazy dust covers.


Plus, if you ever want a glass of orange juice while stuck in traffic... problem solved.


----------



## chithead

Saw the Audison Bit Nove posted up in a picture - looks like it was connected to a Maestro AR, could potentially be good news for some folks.


----------



## bertholomey

chithead said:


> Plus, if you ever want a glass of orange juice while stuck in traffic... problem solved.




Good one Chit! I can’t add anything meaningful, but I’m hoping for some pics. I do hope AF can find a good distributor that will give the service Josiah and Greg gave.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

SkizeR said:


> the black series wasnt made in china. they were rebadged SB Acoustics products made in indonesia. These look nice though


Rebadged* you mean "modded" for Arc Audio Specs.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

benny z said:


> Actually, I paid for it in full early last Spring. Pretty sure I don’t even want it now. Not because I’m salty about this latest development - ok, maybe a little... but mainly because I requested updates directly from Audiotec Fischer personally several times last year, specifically as a paid customer, and received ZERO updates - not even a courtesy response - about that fine piece of vaporware.
> 
> I think it’s time to move on.
> 
> Lots of other new intriguing processing pieces coming to market.


I would simply ask for a refund and stick with what's available. The mkII is most likely 99% the same. Your BMW install already addresses the 10+ more important items a DSP cant fix. Do you really want to be the RnD of AF on a new DSP?


----------



## benny z

AVIDEDTR said:


> I would simply ask for a refund and stick with what's available. The mkII is most likely 99% the same. Your BMW install already addresses the 10+ more important items a DSP cant fix. Do you really want to be the RnD of AF on a new DSP?


Hybrid has offered to make it right with me. As such, I'll be pursuing other options. I'm not interested in owning the Brax processor at this point, no matter how amazeballs it may eventually be. I've got my eye on something else and am pretty eager to get my hands on it. From what I've seen so far it offers all the things I've been begging AF to implement for some time - which, of course, has fallen on deaf ears.

Have to say it's mighty big of Hybrid to offer to make it right on AF's behalf at this point.


----------



## Babs

AVIDEDTR said:


> Rebadged* you mean "modded" for Arc Audio Specs.


I would say that's probably how that went down.. I'd even suspect SB Acoustics themselves might not have even been a direct relationship, but likely.. If I had to speculate, so I will, there's also that possibility Arc just simply chose the same production source (Sinar Baja Electric) and that was the design that met their needs for a pretty darn good hustle compared to picking up SB's on madisound. That might sound like a slight against Arc, but not meant that way.. It's totally absolutely understandable. Just business. Folks don't do it to break even.  Plus they had to pay for that band at CES this year, right? LOL!


----------



## Babs

benny z said:


> Hybrid has offered to make it right with me. As such, I'll be pursuing other options. I'm not interested in owning the Brax processor at this point, no matter how amazeballs it may eventually be. I've got my eye on something else and am pretty eager to get my hands on it. From what I've seen so far it offers all the things I've been begging AF to implement for some time - which, of course, has fallen on deaf ears.
> 
> Have to say it's mighty big of Hybrid to offer to make it right on AF's behalf at this point.


Glad for that.. Yeah I'd be a nervous nelly if I shelled out that kind of coin for a product that wasn't proven and in production shipping daily. That took a blue steel pair.


----------



## cmusic

benny z said:


> Hybrid has offered to make it right with me. As such, I'll be pursuing other options. I'm not interested in owning the Brax processor at this point, no matter how amazeballs it may eventually be. I've got my eye on something else and am pretty eager to get my hands on it. From what I've seen so far it offers all the things I've been begging AF to implement for some time - which, of course, has fallen on deaf ears.
> 
> *Have to say it's mighty big of Hybrid to offer to make it right on AF's behalf at this point.*


Big thumbs up to HAT!!! 

HAT helped me get my DSP Pro MKII and Director last year when I did not have a local dealer to help me. And while the DSP has performed wonderfully for me, the urge to try other things is always there. Maybe the new Zapco ZV DSP or the AF upmixer will be in my future.


----------



## brianlin87

Truthunter said:


> Still looking for an factory amp replacement solution for Toyota/Lexus... Looks like PAC will have a solution before Idatalink has one with the Maestro AR.


This.


----------



## aholland1198

Truthunter said:


> Still looking for an factory amp replacement solution for Toyota/Lexus... Looks like PAC will have a solution before Idatalink has one with the Maestro AR.




No love for my 2011 Lexus from any company. The HD input on the helix sounds great but I’d love to play CDs again. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chefhow

aholland1198 said:


> No love for my 2011 Lexus from any company. The HD input on the helix sounds great but I’d love to play CDs again.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Buy a discman and plug it in via RCA's.....


----------



## cvjoint

Wow all this sweating over speaker support. If these low brow companies didn't charge you enough for 1000% profit slice on a $30 speaker you wouldn't sweat at the idea of driver replacement. If it wasn't a $30 speaker it wouldn't break that often. 

Since this website got going over 10 years ago I only lost one Scan Speak driver on a short (not the speaker's fault) and a Seas driver with a glue joint failing. Madisound replaced the Seas with a new one even though I didn't buy it from them. I think I just replaced the coil on the Scan IIRC. In either case, given 10 years of using high end Scandinavian drivers I think one true driver failure is quite alright and wouldn't mind paying out of pocket.


----------



## ErinH

cvjoint said:


> Wow all this sweating over speaker support. If these low brow companies didn't charge you enough for 1000% profit slice on a $30 speaker you wouldn't sweat at the idea of driver replacement. If it wasn't a $30 speaker it wouldn't break that often.
> 
> Since this website got going over 10 years ago I only lost one Scan Speak driver on a short (not the speaker's fault) and a Seas driver with a glue joint failing. Madisound replaced the Seas with a new one even though I didn't buy it from them. I think I just replaced the coil on the Scan IIRC. In either case, given 10 years of using high end Scandinavian drivers I think one true driver failure is quite alright and wouldn't mind paying out of pocket.


I think you just wasted a lot of typing there, George. 

The Helix support they’re talking about is about their DSPs and not speakers. Specifically, update issues with the DSP and/or DVC (known as the director). Some people have run in to issues loading up the latest firmware and Hybrid, the (former) Helix distributor, was always there to offer tech support.


----------



## Babs

I often forget they even sell speakers.. Literally zero "buzz" or marketing push ever about ATF speakers. No pun intended.. Well maybe I did intend it just a little.  So hmm that might be telling us something in light of current events though.


----------



## benny z

Babs said:


> I often forget they even sell speakers.. Literally zero "buzz" or marketing push ever about ATF speakers. No pun intended.. Well maybe I did intend it just a little.  So hmm that might be telling us something in light of current events though.




I fully intended to use the coaxial Helix Esprit speakers in my truck’s dash last season. I bought a pair, installed them, and they were distorted. I had Hybrid send me a replacement set and they did the same thing. I gave up and used Hybrid speakers instead. AF has a ton of products that are just mediocre at best. Might be OK for average Crutchfield consumers, but....


----------



## cvjoint

ErinH said:


> I think you just wasted a lot of typing there, George.
> 
> The Helix support they’re talking about is about their DSPs and not speakers. Specifically, update issues with the DSP and/or DVC (known as the director). Some people have run in to issues loading up the latest firmware and Hybrid, the (former) Helix distributor, was always there to offer tech support.


Well, Alpine and Clarion is for processing what Seas and Scan Speak are for speakers. I can't say any of my Clarion or Alpine processors ever needed fixing or even an update and none are really that expensive to replace. 

Since the H800 came out folks have regularly got these obscure processors in search for sub 1db adjustment or to get 20 channels of processing. I can't say I've got the most I could out of the H800, it's just that powerful. By comparison tuning in the inaudible range (sub 1 db) is quite pointless especially when the real deviation is many DBs based on how we tune.

I honestly gave the speaker example because speakers are the only ones that should be breaking with use. They have a mechanical suspension that gets torn as it gets used.


----------



## Babs

benny z said:


> I fully intended to use the coaxial Helix Esprit speakers in my truck’s dash last season. I bought a pair, installed them, and they were distorted. I had Hybrid send me a replacement set and they did the same thing. I gave up and used Hybrid speakers instead. AF has a ton of products that are just mediocre at best. Might be OK for average Crutchfield consumers, but....


One trick pony these days maybe.. Might be good for them to fall back, retool and go at it again on the speaker side. That might be what's up their sleeve with the distribution change.. Back off on the US market and do some house cleaning. That's probably a far far reaching assumption.


----------



## benny z

Babs said:


> One trick pony these days maybe.. Might be good for them to fall back, retool and go at it again on the speaker side. That might be what's up their sleeve with the distribution change.. Back off on the US market and do some house cleaning. That's probably a far far reaching assumption.


Their Brax lines of speakers are good. But not much demand for the super high end here.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

cvjoint said:


> Since the H800 came out folks have regularly got these obscure processors in search for sub 1db adjustment or to get 20 channels of processing. I can't say I've got the most I could out of the H800, it's just that powerful. By comparison tuning in the inaudible range (sub 1 db) is quite pointless especially when the real deviation is many DBs based on how we tune.


I'll have to respectfully disagree on these remarks because I can hear less than 1db changes in speaker levels and eq very clearly. But let's not clutter this thread any more on that talk. You can start your own thread about it if you like


----------



## cvjoint

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I'll have to respectfully disagree on these remarks because I can hear less than 1db changes in speaker levels and eq very clearly. But let's not clutter this thread any more on that talk. You can start your own thread about it if you like


I've been trying to find your insightful posts in this thread regarding actual CES product and this is all I could find, see below. 



Hillbilly SQ said:


> From the outside looking in having another car audio company push your product is setting yourself up for a heavily biased relationship.


Very informative indeed. You have not earned your pedestal.


----------



## benny z

Seriously?

With all due respect, your views on processors are archaic.

God forbid we have firmware and software updates for new features on modern electronics. 

#rollseyes


----------



## ErinH

cvjoint said:


> Well, Alpine and Clarion is for processing what Seas and Scan Speak are for speakers. I can't say any of my Clarion or Alpine processors ever needed fixing or even an update and none are really that expensive to replace.
> 
> Since the H800 came out folks have regularly got these obscure processors in search for sub 1db adjustment or to get 20 channels of processing. I can't say I've got the most I could out of the H800, it's just that powerful. By comparison tuning in the inaudible range (sub 1 db) is quite pointless especially when the real deviation is many DBs based on how we tune.
> 
> I honestly gave the speaker example because speakers are the only ones that should be breaking with use. They have a mechanical suspension that gets torn as it gets used.


I don’t agree with your post. 

Helix continually updates it's DSPs. Something Alpine doesn’t do. Helix even updates their _previous_ models with new features (all-pass filters, shelving filter options, input EQ, etc). That's why so many people use their product. They don't dump it on the market and then forget about it. 

So, these are reasons why people use the Helix and this is why they take advantage of the updates. Naturally people (for any number of reasons; car turns off, they're not tech savvy, etc) have issues and need support. That's what they are talking about.


----------



## kouklo

So let's get back on topic. 
I actually like the new lineup from Kenwood. What do you guys think of the DMX905S?


----------



## Coppertone

^^^^. I actually like the looks of Kenwoods, but after having three head units ( higher end ) I am hesitant to ever buy one.


----------



## kouklo

Coppertone said:


> ^^^^. I actually like the looks of Kenwoods, but after having three head units ( higher end ) I am hesitant to ever buy one.


..........wtf?!?! you can't just say that and not tell me why!! LOL
Im really thinking of getting one.


----------



## Coppertone

I’ll pm you to keep this clutter free.


----------



## miniSQ

benny z said:


> Seriously?
> 
> With all due respect, your views on processors are archaic.
> 
> God forbid we have firmware and software updates for new features on modern electronics.
> 
> #rollseyes


Not to mention updates that allow more models to use the latest software and features.


----------



## aholland1198

Anyone have pics or updates? Pasmag etc only have pics and vids of cadence Orion etc. nothing good


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## benny z

aholland1198 said:


> Anyone have pics or updates? Pasmag etc only have pics and vids of cadence Orion etc. nothing good
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Facebook is the place to see everything.


----------



## aholland1198

benny z said:


> Facebook is the place to see everything.




Well crap, no Facebook for this guy. Thanks though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Brules

Babs said:


> I often forget they even sell speakers.. Literally zero "buzz" or marketing push ever about ATF speakers. No pun intended.. Well maybe I did intend it just a little.  So hmm that might be telling us something in light of current events though.


Probably the reason ATF decided to drop HAT.........the Germans (I sell machines made in Germany) like their dealers to sell ALL their products not just ones that don't compete with their other lines. 

The manufacturer we rep is the same way and they are very cut and dry about it lol. Your quota is X, there is no reason why you shouldnt hit X. 

Oh and they have no sense of humor, or very very little lol.

I wish HAT all the best as their support (brief amount) I received was above and beyond!

I hope ATF doesn't screw this up with a crappy distributor. I REALLY like my equipment, but a crap distributor would def change my opinion quick. Will be interesting to see who thy announce next week. 

BennyZ, where on FB is the most info on CES being posted? The SQ group?


----------



## benny z

Most of the manufacturers have their own Facebook pages where they are showcasing their booths/products...some of them are being shared to the SSQ group, yes. I’m also friends with a lot of industry ppl on Facebook and see their personal postings. Social networking is a big thing at events like this.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Not sure if this slipped by those at CES or not but a few days ago Geoff Schneider (Product Manager at P-E) posted on SSQ about a new item coming from Dayton. The DSP-408. A tiny budget oriented DSP. 
From his post..."4x8, 31 band graphic eq on input, 6 band parametric per channel, bandpass crossovers on each channel, and able to be used in home or car". *Stated retail will be $199*. 
You can read the entire thread and it mentions a few more details...T/A, 115 dB S/N. Apparently no relation to the MiniDsp. 
Release date is mentioned as sometime in March. But, I'd bet it's a little later as they are still working on the iOS.
Photos and comments are here:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...&set=gm.1994920070536808&type=3&theater&ifg=1


----------



## metanium

PPI_GUY said:


> Not sure if this slipped by those at CES or not but a few days ago Geoff Schneider (Product Manager at P-E) posted on SSQ about a new item coming from Dayton. The DSP-408. A tiny budget oriented DSP.
> From his post..."4x8, 31 band graphic eq on input, 6 band parametric per channel, bandpass crossovers on each channel, and able to be used in home or car". *Stated retail will be $199*.
> You can read the entire thread and it mentions a few more details...T/A, 115 dB S/N. Apparently no relation to the MiniDsp.
> Release date is mentioned as sometime in March. But, I'd bet it's a little later as they are still working on the iOS.
> Photos and comments are here:
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...&set=gm.1994920070536808&type=3&theater&ifg=1


This ought to be interesting. P-E has always been a budget-minded guilty pleasure of mine,as far experimenting with equipment and such.


----------



## pocket5s

kouklo said:


> ..........wtf?!?! you can't just say that and not tell me why!! LOL
> Im really thinking of getting one.





Coppertone said:


> ^^^^. I actually like the looks of Kenwoods, but after having three head units ( higher end ) I am hesitant to ever buy one.


I worked on a guy's truck recently that has a previous gen kenwood ( don't recall the exact model ) and it was terrible. Horribly slow and sluggish UI, drove me nuts.

The new gen though, wow, what an improvement. Very responsive. A friend (and competitor if that means anything to you) replaced his alpine with it and noticed an improvement. He talked to a kenwood rep who said they redid the signal path in them and used better components for a better output. Don't know details on that however.

I noticed the UI difference right off the bat. So much so that I bought one for the wife's truck.


----------



## Silvercoat

Babs said:


> One trick pony these days maybe.. Might be good for them to fall back, retool and go at it again on the speaker side. That might be what's up their sleeve with the distribution change.. Back off on the US market and do some house cleaning. That's probably a far far reaching assumption.


I was hoping to hear or try the Precision set. Hmmmm. Need to rethink what I want to use as a 3-Way set


----------



## cvjoint

ErinH said:


> I don’t agree with your post.
> 
> Helix continually updates it's DSPs. Something Alpine doesn’t do. Helix even updates their _previous_ models with new features (all-pass filters, shelving filter options, input EQ, etc). That's why so many people use their product. They don't dump it on the market and then forget about it.
> 
> So, these are reasons why people use the Helix and this is why they take advantage of the updates. Naturally people (for any number of reasons; car turns off, they're not tech savvy, etc) have issues and need support. That's what they are talking about.


Ok I don't want to derail much so I'll just say this. 

If you look on the market today no company spends the money to buy licenses for technology that really makes a difference. We spent decades building from scratch carputers and boards that would do a decent job adding delayed and bandpass limited surround and then we had big money algos that could do it flawlessly. Now, no one spends the money to buy the algos anymore. It's either some janky in house version or stereo. 

Today's processors are more like what carputers used to be 10 years ago. Lots and lots of options that don't matter, complicated, and need updates just to fix things only so that you can have a GUI and do everything manually with 2ch. 

The H800 had all that you needed and nothing that you didn't. It is simple and bulletproof so you have time to listen to music. New processors are just cut down carputers of 10 years ago, why not build a carputer?


----------



## pocket5s

Most of the updates add features, not fix issues.

The market hasn't wanted features that require expensive licensing. Sure us in the minority would like real upmixing and all that goodness, but overall they don't. The MS8, H800, etc. prove that. 

To say today's DSPs have features that don't matter is ridiculous. Just because you don't want it doesn't mean it doesn't matter. 

Why not build a carputer? expense, time, capability, size and complexity are but a few reasons.


----------



## SkizeR

cvjoint said:


> Now, no one spends the money to buy the algos anymore.


thats because theres hardly a market for it. period. why would any company pay tens of thousands (at least) for an algorithm that would benefit a small handful of their customers, if that. are you running passive front and rear with a large center channel? i doubt it. thats what it has vs every other processor. back when the h800 came out it was a bit more of a popular idea. now its just starting to come back again.


----------



## cvjoint

^^ I am totally in agreement that there is only a small market for clever algos. It would have to be more of a brand builder than a money maker or heck educate the market or create a market. 

I guess I'm just venting about the new Alpine processor. There are OEM cars out there with great soundstage/processing that get changed out for what is in my mind a dumbed down 2ch solution. Why not just add 4 channels and the GUI to an H800? It must have been a choice to not pay royalties. At the end of the day this is about cost. 

There are ways to get around 8 channel restriction, we've used xovers in amps, coaxials, full range speakers and so forth. But does anyone think we're going to get Dolby goods on the next Alpine or Helix update?


----------



## SkizeR

cvjoint said:


> There are OEM cars out there with great soundstage/processing that get changed out for what is in my mind a dumbed down 2ch solution. Why not just add 4 channels and the GUI to an H800?


because most installers dont know any better. you can just take the amps outputs that are upmixed, feed them into a processor and just eq them.

that, or the customer or user or whoever doenst want to pay for all of the amp channels and speakers and labor/put in the time. also, some just dont sound very good. some do


----------



## rton20s

I’m currently sitting in the airport, waiting on my delayed flight home. I had some issues uploading my photos to photobucket, so that will have to come later. In the mean time, I will comment on a couple of he things that have been discussed. 

Audiomobile... I went by the W specifically to check out the new midbass was, but could connect up with Matt. I’m sure we’ll see some posts on social media or a press release in one of the 12v online sources soon. 

The Arc PS8 Pro has A LOT of really cool features. Fred was kind enough to demonstrate the software for several of us. It is going to be very powerful and excellent for everything from simple vehicle integration to very, very advanced tuning. I do fear that the interface and capabilities will be quite overwhelming for most novice timers. This is NOT a starter DSP (go talk to Geoff at PE), it is called PS8 Pro for a reason. 

Now, the negatives on the PS8 Pro. Notice the name is still PS8? Yep, 8 channels of output. Not 12, not 10. I would have hoped to have seen more channels. Maybe CES 2019? Also, the DSP does not have a licensed upmixer. Same sort of signal summing features as Mosconi and Helix. 

On to the new Alpine processor. What you need to understand first, and foremost, is that this is not a processor developed for the US market. The processor was developed and has been available for some time in the Chinese market. Alpine is in the process of getting everything converted over to English on the software and documentation side for the US market. 

It is clear by the DSP features that it was not meant to be a replacement for the H800. When you look at the spec sheet. Where the new DSP shines is in factory integration. Still, for 99% or customers, it will be more than capable of meeting all of their needs. 

In talking with Alpine, they stated that they are continuing to develop the next generation of DSP that will likely be the replacement of the H800. I asked them specifically about retaining the licensed upmixing algorithms currently in use in the H800 and they indicated that it was their intention to do just that. My speciulation is that within the next couple of years we will see a more powerful version of the H800. Most likely something that combines the features of the 0850S and he H800. Twelve channels and the upmixers. 

Hats it for now. My plane is boarding!


----------



## rton20s

Oh yeah... Kenwood HUs have HiRes FLAC and DSD support as well as 720P screens! They look really nice. 

Also, despite all of the complaints on Facebook, the Alpine HALO9 looks really nice in person. I would run this thing any day over a Clarion with HiRes capability and optical output.


----------



## ErinH

rton20s said:


> Oh yeah... Kenwood HUs have HiRes FLAC and DSD support as well as 720P screens! They look really nice.
> 
> Also, despite all of the complaints on Facebook, the Alpine HALO9 looks really nice in person. I would run this thing any day over a Clarion with HiRes capability and optical output.


scott mentioned this to me in groupchat the other day and I didn't catch it because I was already annoyed by Alpine being Alpine. I thought the HALO was just another perfect fit thingamabob. But after I saw your post I went and looked it up and to my surprise it actually does look pretty neat. I saw that it's only got a 480p screen which is kind of lame when you consider the additional screen size (which just means the image quality will not look as sharp as it could now that the lower resolution is being blown up in size). But I'd like to see one in person. I question if the 9" screen size would look out of place in my dash; I know when I test fit the old 8" z-whatever-version-it-was, it looked goofy. 

I do like that it would be a stupid-easy install, though, with the single din chassis. And the large surface area touchscreen for carPlay is the bomb!

The one thing that caught my attention is the large fan on the back. Having used all sorts of double-din headunits with fans like that I can say the noise from the fan itself has caused me to send a few of them back. Being someone who sits in their car and listens from time to time (and sometimes competes), I'll say that a fan that can easily be heard over the radio is annoying as hell. Unless alpine has throttled this fan's RPM down and/or the fan itself is quiet, I have a sinking feeling that fan would be cause for me to have to pass on it. Hopefully I'm wrong.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

I feel you on the fan Erin. My buddy got a smokin' deal on a NICE Kenwood double din I bought because the fan was just too much. Underside of my Ram's dash seemed to act like a horn mouth for it. He was gonna end up with it anyway when I was done with it but got it early. He loves it and the fan doesn't bother him.

That Dayton processor sounds interesting. When reading about the input and output eq the old Synthesis/DEQ8 came to mind then I read it wasn't made by minidsp. Wonder who makes it?

I want to see exactly what the PS8 pro consists of. Likely way more than I need and possibly in the "if you have to ask you can't afford it" price bracket but curiosity killed the kitten.


----------



## Coppertone

That’s exactly how it was with my Clarion, great unit but that fan sound running killed it for me.


----------



## rton20s

The lower resolution on the HALO9 is one of the Hong’s we were talking about while at CES that was a big let down. Especially now that Kenwood has FINALLY given us an HD screen. Even if it is 720P. Surprisingly the 480P screen did not look bad. Of course, all we were looking at was the UI and didnt see any content played back on it or anything. We also didn’t get to hear the unit play anything, so I have no idea how the fan noise might be. 

As far as PS8 Pro pricing, they didn’t have anything official yet. If I had to guess, it will probably be priced about the same as some of the higher tier processors.


----------



## SkizeR

ok guys, no need to panic anymore

Meet the New Brax Helix Distributor | ceoutlook.com


----------



## JVD240

Cool. A nice local dude. Fantastic business they run.


----------



## Babs

rton20s said:


> The lower resolution on the HALO9 is one of the Hong’s we were talking about while at CES that was a big let down. Especially now that Kenwood has FINALLY given us an HD screen. Even if it is 720P. Surprisingly the 480P screen did not look bad. Of course, all we were looking at was the UI and didnt see any content played back on it or anything. We also didn’t get to hear the unit play anything, so I have no idea how the fan noise might be.


I suspect better sound out of the Kenwoods also.. The stir on the FB pages, someone maybe Ben chimed in the Kenwoods are using AKM DAC's. Just not seeing the value out of Alpine as a major player anymore. The effort was good in having a screen floating from a 1-din brain, but I think they pooped their nest with both the screen resolution and likely just mid-fi internals.. "Mid-fi" being my term for mid-level SQ if that.


----------



## cvjoint

rton20s said:


> On to the new Alpine processor. What you need to understand first, and foremost, is that this is not a processor developed for the US market. The processor was developed and has been available for some time in the Chinese market. Alpine is in the process of getting everything converted over to English on the software and documentation side for the US market.
> 
> It is clear by the DSP features that it was not meant to be a replacement for the H800. When you look at the spec sheet. Where the new DSP shines is in factory integration. Still, for 99% or customers, it will be more than capable of meeting all of their needs.
> 
> In talking with Alpine, they stated that they are continuing to develop the next generation of DSP that will likely be the replacement of the H800. I asked them specifically about retaining the licensed upmixing algorithms currently in use in the H800 and they indicated that it was their intention to do just that. My speciulation is that within the next couple of years we will see a more powerful version of the H800. Most likely something that combines the features of the 0850S and he H800. Twelve channels and the upmixers.
> 
> Hats it for now. My plane is boarding!


That's really good news! This is sort of the info I was needing and wanted to go to CES myself for. Got the ticket...but was too busy at work. Sigh. 

I don't know that the H800 needs much, yeah I agree mixing the two abilities in one processor would be clutch. However, I hope they drop the built in amp thing, it really doesn't belong in a high end processor. 

Explains why most of the info I got was from translating Chinese websites. 



rton20s said:


> Oh yeah... Kenwood HUs have HiRes FLAC and DSD support as well as 720P screens! They look really nice.
> 
> Also, despite all of the complaints on Facebook, the Alpine HALO9 looks really nice in person. I would run this thing any day over a Clarion with HiRes capability and optical output.


The Alpine does not have an optical out, does it? If it's single din, would it be possible to fit the H800 processor controller just beneath it?

might be a tough question, but which new heads have optical?


----------



## rton20s

cvjoint said:


> That's really good news! This is sort of the info I was needing and wanted to go to CES myself for. Got the ticket...but was too busy at work. Sigh.
> 
> I don't know that the H800 needs much, yeah I agree mixing the two abilities in one processor would be clutch. However, I hope they drop the built in amp thing, it really doesn't belong in a high end processor.
> 
> Explains why most of the info I got was from translating Chinese websites.


I agree. I could see Alpine having one entry level processor focused on integration (PXE-0850S) and a more advanced processor with the built in upmixing and no amp (PXA-H1200?). 




cvjoint said:


> The Alpine does not have an optical out, does it? If it's single din, would it be possible to fit the H800 processor controller just beneath it?
> 
> might be a tough question, but which new heads have optical?


The Alpine HALO9 (iLX-F309) does not have optical out. It MIGHT be possible to mount an RUX-C800 below the HALO9 in a DD opening. The HU has 5 vertical positions (up/down), 2 horizontal positions (in/out), and 4 angle positions (+45 to -20 degrees). If you were to position the HU in the highest vertical position, there is probably enough room for the RUX-C800. Keep in mind though, that even in the shallowest horizontal position, the HALO9 will likely "float" close to 2" forward of the face of the RUX-C800. 

I'm not sure of who is making head units with optical out now, other than Clarion. Personally, I wouldn't bother with one of their head units. Even for the optical out. 


Also, I am trying to get my photos from CES uploaded to my PB account. As soon as they are all up, I'll try and post them up.


----------



## ErinH

I saw Alpine's FB page getting dragged by some people for the HALO 9 for it's likeness to something Fahrenheit put out "10 years ago". Which gave me the original perspective I had on that thing... looks kind of cheap. But, again, this is perspective based only on what I've seen on the internet. 

Looking forward to seeing your photos, Dustin.


----------



## rton20s

ErinH said:


> I saw Alpine's FB page getting dragged by some people for the HALO 9 for it's likeness to something Fahrenheit put out "10 years ago". Which gave me the original perspective I had on that thing... looks kind of cheap. But, again, this is perspective based only on what I've seen on the internet.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing your photos, Dustin.


That was something we (Richard, JT and myself) were discussing while at CES. We saw the comments on FB as well. JT and I even walked right past the Epsilon booth and their version of the floating head unit. The difference in look is not subtle. In my opinion, there is a night and day difference. Not even considering GUI and user experience, the Epsilon units just look cheap. 

I didn't get any pictures of the Epsilon units at CES, but in person, the units look like cheap, black, plastic Chinese tablets stuck to the front of a DD opening. The Alpine unit looks a lot more like the OE units that have become pretty common in mid-level and luxury vehicles. The install flexibility of the Alpine unit should make it a lot nice for integration, as well. 


















Accell also had some pretty nice 1080P seat-back monitors that seemed a pretty nice match for the Alpine. For those of us that might be living that dad life. 










CES photos courtesy of JT.


----------



## cvjoint

rton20s said:


> The Alpine HALO9 (iLX-F309) does not have optical out. It MIGHT be possible to mount an RUX-C800 below the HALO9 in a DD opening. The HU has 5 vertical positions (up/down), 2 horizontal positions (in/out), and 4 angle positions (+45 to -20 degrees). If you were to position the HU in the highest vertical position, there is probably enough room for the RUX-C800. Keep in mind though, that even in the shallowest horizontal position, the HALO9 will likely "float" close to 2" forward of the face of the RUX-C800.
> 
> I'm not sure of who is making head units with optical out now, other than Clarion. Personally, I wouldn't bother with one of their head units. Even for the optical out.
> 
> 
> Also, I am trying to get my photos from CES uploaded to my PB account. As soon as they are all up, I'll try and post them up.


I just bought a new W957HD (but obviously at least 3 year old) Alpine. Yeah the Clarions were the only other "modern" choice. 

Hard to buy something other than Alpine, I like the build quality. Hmm makes me wonder if they are publicly traded.


----------



## rton20s

cvjoint said:


> I just bought a new W957HD (but obviously at least 3 year old) Alpine. Yeah the Clarions were the only other "modern" choice.
> 
> Hard to buy something other than Alpine, I like the build quality. Hmm makes me wonder if they are publicly traded.


https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/6770:JP


----------



## Salami

Babs said:


> I suspect better sound out of the Kenwoods also.. The stir on the FB pages, someone maybe Ben chimed in the Kenwoods are using AKM DAC's.


Is there any confirmation out there on the DAC's? This one has caught my attention: DDX9905S | eXcelon | CAR ENTERTAINMENT | KENWOOD USA It seems to have a significant price hike over the older model so I would hope it has better DAC's. 







Does anyone have more info on this Sony? Very nice looking double DIN, bottom of the face is supposedly aluminum, capacitive touch screen. https://blog.sony.com/2018/01/sony-...-oe-integration-and-impeccable-sound-quality/


----------



## Truthunter

Salami said:


> Does anyone have more info on this Sony? Very nice looking double DIN, bottom of the face is supposedly aluminum, capacitive touch screen. https://blog.sony.com/2018/01/sony-...-oe-integration-and-impeccable-sound-quality/


That sure is a nice clean looking double DIN

DDIN market looks to be at a turning point... hopefully the manufactures will follow up in the years to come with the SQ features/qualities we've been wanting.


----------



## rton20s

Salami said:


> Is there any confirmation out there on the DAC's? This one has caught my attention: DDX9905S | eXcelon | CAR ENTERTAINMENT | KENWOOD USA It seems to have a significant price hike over the older model so I would hope it has better DAC's.



I haven't seen any confirmation on the DAC. If I had to guess, the price increase (~$200) is probably based more on the HD screen (no one else has it), inclusion of WiFi and updated Bluetooth (4.1 vs 3.0). Those are the primary updates from the DDX9904S and the biggest differentiators from most of the competitors. 




Salami said:


> Does anyone have more info on this Sony? Very nice looking double DIN, bottom of the face is supposedly aluminum, capacitive touch screen. https://blog.sony.com/2018/01/sony-...-oe-integration-and-impeccable-sound-quality/


I took a quick look at the XAV-AX5000 and the XAV-AX200 at the Sony booth. It seemed like a nice looking HU and priced pretty well. $430 retail vs $499 for the XAV-AX200. The screen is slightly larger, but it gives up a disc drive, rotary volume control and 4V preouts. It is actually a single DIN chassis with 2 DIN face, if I am not mistaken.


----------



## nineball76

Salami said:


> Is there any confirmation out there on the DAC's? This one has caught my attention: DDX9905S | eXcelon | CAR ENTERTAINMENT | KENWOOD USA It seems to have a significant price hike over the older model so I would hope it has better DAC's.


Kenwood will never offer any info regarding the DACs they use. But specs look to be identical to the '17 models, so I wouldn't expect any upgrades in that part of the units.


----------



## rton20s

nineball76 said:


> Kenwood will never offer any info regarding the DACs they use. But specs look to be identical to the '17 models, so I wouldn't expect any upgrades in that part of the units.


I saw the same thing in the specs. They made a big deal out of their change last year, I am not sure they would make a change so soon when they have other features they seem to be hanging their hat on.


----------



## nineball76

rton20s said:


> I saw the same thing in the specs. They made a big deal out of their change last year, I am not sure they would make a change so soon when they have other features they seem to be hanging their hat on.


Is the increase in price worth the upgrade in screen resolution for this year's models though? I'm 100% set on getting a newer KW but are the '17 models going to drop in price to make room to push the '18's? 

Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

nineball76 said:


> Is the increase in price worth the upgrade in screen resolution for this year's models though? I'm 100% set on getting a newer KW but are the '17 models going to drop in price to make room to push the '18's?
> 
> Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


I think that's gonna have to be up to you. Dustin has said _"They look really nice"_. However, headunits, at least to me, are always something that need to be seen in person and sometimes you even have to install them in the car and use them for a few days to determine whether or not you like them. How is the UI on a daily basis, how visible is the screen (more below), is the fan audible (like I mentioned a few posts earlier). 

720p aside, the thing that bothers me about capacitive touch displays is how reflective they are. In my experience - in my car with the angle the headunit is displayed - daylight creates a huge inconvenience; I can hardly see the screen. In others' cars it may not be a problem at all. Unfortunately, this is one of those things you won't really know until you install it and drive around with it in your car. Thank goodness for Crutchfield's liberal return policy.


----------



## ErinH

Dustin,
Regarding the Alpine HALO 9, do you happen to have any pictures of it in CarPlay mode? Specifically of the screen when it's in "Music" mode and lists playlists/songs/etc? 

The reason I ask is because I'm curious if the increased real estate has afforded additional lines of content. Right now with my 7" Pioneer only 4 songs/playlists/whatever are displayed at a time (well, 4.5). I can grab a screenshot if it helps to relay what I'm talking about. My hunch is that Alpine has simply scaled everything to fit on the screen but in the same way; so no additional lines of information, etc. But it would be an "added bonus" if the larger screen meant an additional line or two of text.


I'm still on the fence about this headunit but my local dealer has one on order so hopefully within a month or two I'll be able to check it out in person. 


Thanks for your posts here, btw. They're much appreciated by me and I'm sure others as well.


----------



## pocket5s

ErinH said:


> 720p aside, the thing that bothers me about capacitive touch displays is how reflective they are. In my experience - in my car with the angle the headunit is displayed - daylight creates a huge inconvenience; I can hardly see the screen. In others' cars it may not be a problem at all. Unfortunately, this is one of those things you won't really know until you install it and drive around with it in your car. Thank goodness for Crutchfield's liberal return policy.


That's one thing nice about the new kenwood, you can change the angle


----------



## cvjoint

In my 'Vette I never had a headunit. Just straight up bluetooth with aptx into the H800. It can be skipped. 

On the new car I want a rear view camera so I can hitch the race car otherwise I'd skip it again. The smartphone has replaced the headunit for me.


----------



## rton20s

ErinH said:


> I think that's gonna have to be up to you. Dustin has said _"They look really nice"_. However, headunits, at least to me, are always something that need to be seen in person and sometimes you even have to install them in the car and use them for a few days to determine whether or not you like them. How is the UI on a daily basis, how visible is the screen (more below), is the fan audible (like I mentioned a few posts earlier).
> 
> 720p aside, the thing that bothers me about capacitive touch displays is how reflective they are. In my experience - in my car with the angle the headunit is displayed - daylight creates a huge inconvenience; I can hardly see the screen. In others' cars it may not be a problem at all. Unfortunately, this is one of those things you won't really know until you install it and drive around with it in your car. Thank goodness for Crutchfield's liberal return policy.


I completely agree with everything above. The screens are quite nice, and probably the best I have ever seen on a head unit. Is it worth the $200+ premium over a 2017 model to get 720P and WiFi? Like Erin said, that is a judgement call for the user. $900-$1300 is a pretty big pill to swallow. Especially when the competition (Pioneer) is currently priced at $600-$850 for their equivalent units without HD or WiFi. And if you don't need HiRes, the new 7" Sony capacitive HU is only $450!

I will say, the screens weren't so much better that they caught my attention as I walked by. That isn't how we use them though. Up close, the difference was noticeable. Again, this on a demo board in a busy convention. NOT in a vehicle in use. 




ErinH said:


> Dustin,
> Regarding the Alpine HALO 9, do you happen to have any pictures of it in CarPlay mode? Specifically of the screen when it's in "Music" mode and lists playlists/songs/etc?
> 
> The reason I ask is because I'm curious if the increased real estate has afforded additional lines of content. Right now with my 7" Pioneer only 4 songs/playlists/whatever are displayed at a time (well, 4.5). I can grab a screenshot if it helps to relay what I'm talking about. My hunch is that Alpine has simply scaled everything to fit on the screen but in the same way; so no additional lines of information, etc. But it would be an "added bonus" if the larger screen meant an additional line or two of text.
> 
> 
> I'm still on the fence about this headunit but my local dealer has one on order so hopefully within a month or two I'll be able to check it out in person.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your posts here, btw. They're much appreciated by me and I'm sure others as well.


I didn't get any pictures that show what you're looking for. This one from JT is probably the closest...









No problem on the photos and info. I'm glad to help where I can. Hopefully at some point, I can finally get everything uploaded to Photobucket from my phone. That has been a complete mess. 



pocket5s said:


> That's one thing nice about the new kenwood, you can change the angle


I was going to mention that as well. The viewing angle side to side was also quite nice and they didn't wash out. Of course, how they will behave in a car dealing with sunlight is yet to be seen. For the price, it better be outstanding!


----------



## Mlarson67

ErinH said:


> Dustin,
> Regarding the Alpine HALO 9, do you happen to have any pictures of it in CarPlay mode? Specifically of the screen when it's in "Music" mode and lists playlists/songs/etc?
> 
> The reason I ask is because I'm curious if the increased real estate has afforded additional lines of content. Right now with my 7" Pioneer only 4 songs/playlists/whatever are displayed at a time (well, 4.5). I can grab a screenshot if it helps to relay what I'm talking about. My hunch is that Alpine has simply scaled everything to fit on the screen but in the same way; so no additional lines of information, etc. But it would be an "added bonus" if the larger screen meant an additional line or two of text.
> 
> 
> I'm still on the fence about this headunit but my local dealer has one on order so hopefully within a month or two I'll be able to check it out in person.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your posts here, btw. They're much appreciated by me and I'm sure others as well.


Erin
If Alpine follows suit with the restyle units I'd say you're correct that they just expanded to fit the screen. I have the restyle with the ten inch screen in my Silverado and there is only three lines of text


----------



## nineball76

ErinH said:


> I think that's gonna have to be up to you. Dustin has said _"They look really nice"_. However, headunits, at least to me, are always something that need to be seen in person and sometimes you even have to install them in the car and use them for a few days to determine whether or not you like them. How is the UI on a daily basis, how visible is the screen (more below), is the fan audible (like I mentioned a few posts earlier).
> 
> 720p aside, the thing that bothers me about capacitive touch displays is how reflective they are. In my experience - in my car with the angle the headunit is displayed - daylight creates a huge inconvenience; I can hardly see the screen. In others' cars it may not be a problem at all. Unfortunately, this is one of those things you won't really know until you install it and drive around with it in your car. Thank goodness for Crutchfield's liberal return policy.


Besides the screen, I'm more interested in the wireless android auto feature 

Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


----------



## bbfoto

pocket5s said:


> That's one thing nice about the new kenwood, you can change the angle


Will it also tilt down as well, Robert?


----------



## ANDRESVELASCO

bbfoto said:


> But same as _ErinH_, Andy @ Audiofrog, and others here, I'm honestly _really_ interested in what upmixer technology they will be licensing & using???
> 
> .


Why licencing if you can make your own?

I really think Andy is one of the most cualified persons in the industry that can release a propietary mixing technology. I now is hard to compete with leaders as Dolby and anothers, but they are focused in home/pro/cinema markets... No one is really focused in the car audio environment. Maybe a succulent niche yet unexplored... Specially in the premium OEM market.


----------



## pocket5s

ANDRESVELASCO said:


> Why licencing if you can make your own?
> 
> I really think Andy is one of the most cualified persons in the industry that can release a propietary mixing technology. I now is hard to compete with leaders as Dolby and anothers, but they are focused in home/pro/cinema markets... No one is really focused in the car audio environment. Maybe a succulent niche yet unexplored... Specially in the premium OEM market.


The custom dsp AudioFrog piece he built isn't proprietary, at least not the actual dsp portion/mixing portion. if he went in to production with it, it would be.... wait for it... licensed... Oh, and that tech focuses on, you guessed it, pro audio!


----------



## temporary

rton20s said:


> That was something we (Richard, JT and myself) were discussing while at CES. We saw the comments on FB as well. JT and I even walked right past the Epsilon booth and their version of the floating head unit. The difference in look is not subtle. In my opinion, there is a night and day difference. Not even considering GUI and user experience, the Epsilon units just look cheap.
> 
> I didn't get any pictures of the Epsilon units at CES, but in person, the units look like cheap, black, plastic Chinese tablets stuck to the front of a DD opening. The Alpine unit looks a lot more like the OE units that have become pretty common in mid-level and luxury vehicles. The install flexibility of the Alpine unit should make it a lot nice for integration, as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Accell also had some pretty nice 1080P seat-back monitors that seemed a pretty nice match for the Alpine. For those of us that might be living that dad life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CES photos courtesy of JT.


Thanks for sharing


----------



## rton20s

bbfoto said:


> Will it also tilt down as well, Robert?


If you don't have an answer by tonight, I'll check the Kenwood brochures I grabbed. It may have that information.


----------



## ErinH

rton20s said:


> If you don't have an answer by tonight, I'll check the Kenwood brochures I grabbed. It may have that information.


I think Kenwoods tilt down in general. That was one thing I liked about them.

However, tilting up or down won't get rid of all the glare issues. You still have light that comes in from the side. 



All this said, I noticed the Kenwood's marketing specifies a layer on top of the touch screen which they tout as anti-reflective. I'm curious how much of that is just marketing and how many other companies already have this same layer on their screens (which hasn't been successful for my needs).


----------



## naiku

ErinH said:


> However, tilting up or down won't get rid of all the glare issues. You still have light that comes in from the side.


I wonder though if you could put a screen protector on them to eliminate most of the glare. For example on my Nexus 7 without a matte screen protector the glare was terrible, with the screen protector there is none and touch sensitivity is not lost.

The biggest thing would be finding a protector that fit, I suspect you would have to buy something for a larger tablet and cut it to fit the Kenwood. Might be worth doing though, screen protectors are cheap.


----------



## ErinH

naiku said:


> I wonder though if you could put a screen protector on them to eliminate most of the glare. For example on my Nexus 7 without a matte screen protector the glare was terrible, with the screen protector there is none and touch sensitivity is not lost.
> 
> The biggest thing would be finding a protector that fit, I suspect you would have to buy something for a larger tablet and cut it to fit the Kenwood. Might be worth doing though, screen protectors are cheap.


That is what I think Kenwood is doing. I made this comment above...



ErinH said:


> All this said, I noticed the Kenwood's marketing specifies a layer on top of the touch screen which they tout as anti-reflective. I'm curious how much of that is just marketing and how many other companies already have this same layer on their screens (which hasn't been successful for my needs).


and if you look at their site for the DDX9905s you'll see the picture talking about a protective layer like you mentioned and they specifically state "anti glare" and "anti reflective":


----------



## TheOriginalRURC

PPI_GUY said:


> Not sure if this slipped by those at CES or not but a few days ago Geoff Schneider (Product Manager at P-E) posted on SSQ about a new item coming from Dayton. The DSP-408. A tiny budget oriented DSP.
> From his post..."4x8, 31 band graphic eq on input, 6 band parametric per channel, bandpass crossovers on each channel, and able to be used in home or car". *Stated retail will be $199*.
> You can read the entire thread and it mentions a few more details...T/A, 115 dB S/N. Apparently no relation to the MiniDsp.
> Release date is mentioned as sometime in March. But, I'd bet it's a little later as they are still working on the iOS.
> Photos and comments are here:
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...&set=gm.1994920070536808&type=3&theater&ifg=1



Anyone find out if this is factual or not?


----------



## rton20s

TheOriginalRURC said:


> Anyone find out if this is factual or not?


What do you mean factual? This was straight from the horses a... I mean, mouth:

Initial Announcement:
*4x8, 31 band graphic eq on input, 6 band parametric per channel, bandpass crossovers on each channel, and able to be used in home or car. Retail will be $199."*

_Does it have separate left and right eq? 8ch time alignment and 8ch attenuation? Bandpass xovers on all channels?_
*Every channel has 6 bands of parametric eq. And yes to everything else.*

_Is this just two mini2x4's in a chassis with the minidc isolator?_
* It isn't related to Minidsp*

_Is that high level inputs I see there?_
*Yes*

_Estimated release date?_
*Hopefully by March.*

_So is there a spec sheet there anywhere you can share Geoff Schneider? How about input and output voltage?_
*Nothing we are able to release now.*

_Can you let us know if this will have a full input matrix? Assignable signal routing?_
*It for sure does*

_SNR?_
*≥115dB*

_Is there a site where we can play with or download the android app?_
*No, we haven't released the apps yet.*

_Is the knob assignable?_
*No*


----------



## asianinvasion21

Dang no optical that's a buzz kill. Killer price though.


----------



## Notloudenuf

I like the looks of the Dayton processor. Perfect MSRP for the market too.


----------



## EricP72

I think I'm going to go with this first. Then maybe upgrade down the line and pass this off to my wife's vehicle.


----------



## rton20s

Notloudenuf said:


> I like the looks of the Dayton processor. Perfect MSRP for the market too.


Agreed! If it doesn't absolutely...









I think it will become the "go to" processor for budget systems. We've seen what happens when most brands try to bring budget processors to market. How often are we hearing about Massive Audio, Precision Power, Soundstream and Cadence processors these days? The flip side to that is miniDSP and JL Audio. It is tough to beat their combination of feature set and price point. If Dayton lives up to their reputation, they will own the budget DIY market.


----------



## TheOriginalRURC

rton20s said:


> What do you mean factual? This was straight from the horses a... I mean, mouth:
> 
> Initial Announcement:
> *4x8, 31 band graphic eq on input, 6 band parametric per channel, bandpass crossovers on each channel, and able to be used in home or car. Retail will be $199."*
> 
> _Does it have separate left and right eq? 8ch time alignment and 8ch attenuation? Bandpass xovers on all channels?_
> *Every channel has 6 bands of parametric eq. And yes to everything else.*
> 
> _Is this just two mini2x4's in a chassis with the minidc isolator?_
> * It isn't related to Minidsp*
> 
> _Is that high level inputs I see there?_
> *Yes*
> 
> _Estimated release date?_
> *Hopefully by March.*
> 
> _So is there a spec sheet there anywhere you can share Geoff Schneider? How about input and output voltage?_
> *Nothing we are able to release now.*
> 
> _Can you let us know if this will have a full input matrix? Assignable signal routing?_
> *It for sure does*
> 
> _SNR?_
> *≥115dB*
> 
> _Is there a site where we can play with or download the android app?_
> *No, we haven't released the apps yet.*
> 
> _Is the knob assignable?_
> *No*




I must apologize if it seemed I was questioning your credibility. That is not what was meant. The title of this whole thread is "Facts, Rumors, and Outright Lies". To me that opened up the door to it only being a rumor. I have Googled Dayton DSP and nothing came up. So that is why I questioned if it had been proven factual.

I am in the market for a good reasonably priced DSP and I am in no hurry so this really looks good to me. I am very interested in one of these.


----------



## benny z

With all the hoopla surrounding the AF break with Hybrid, there wasn’t much exposure of Hybrid’s newest speaker. The Hybrid guys did put out some pictures of them from their suite at CES, but there was no official big release as it was overshadowed by other events.

This morning they’ve officially put out more info.

This is the Legatia 2SE - brother to the Unity 2. The Unity 2 is intended for direct swap dash locations reflected off the windshield, while the newest L2SE is better suited for on-axis/direct sound use.

Last weekend I tuned a local car with one of the first pairs of these installed in a classic Ford Starliner. I used them for all content from 315hz on up and they did not disappoint. The car sounds fantastic!


----------



## rton20s

TheOriginalRURC said:


> I must apologize if it seemed I was questioning your credibility. That is not what was meant. The title of this whole thread is "Facts, Rumors, and Outright Lies". To me that opened up the door to it only being a rumor. I have Googled Dayton DSP and nothing came up. So that is why I questioned if it had been proven factual.
> 
> I am in the market for a good reasonably priced DSP and I am in no hurry so this really looks good to me. I am very interested in one of these.


No apologies necessary. The product was displayed on CES, but the announcement was probably a little early. At least the one on Facebook. I would suspect you'll see the information for the new Dayton DSP to show up on Parts Express next month.


----------



## Onyx1136

benny z said:


> With all the hoopla surrounding the AF break with Hybrid, there wasn’t much exposure of Hybrid’s newest speaker. The Hybrid guys did put out some pictures of them from their suite at CES, but there was no official big release as it was overshadowed by other events.
> 
> This morning they’ve officially put out more info.
> 
> This is the Legatia 2SE - brother to the Unity 2. The Unity 2 is intended for direct swap dash locations reflected off the windshield, while the newest L2SE is better suited for on-axis/direct sound use.
> 
> Last weekend I tuned a local car with one of the first pairs of these installed in a classic Ford Starliner. I used them for all content from 315hz on up and they did not disappoint. The car sounds fantastic!


That’s so cute. Any idea what the mounting depth on those is? Or MSRP?


----------



## TerryGreen5986

benny z said:


> With all the hoopla surrounding the AF break with Hybrid, there wasn’t much exposure of Hybrid’s newest speaker. The Hybrid guys did put out some pictures of them from their suite at CES, but there was no official big release as it was overshadowed by other events.
> 
> This morning they’ve officially put out more info.
> 
> This is the Legatia 2SE - brother to the Unity 2. The Unity 2 is intended for direct swap dash locations reflected off the windshield, while the newest L2SE is better suited for on-axis/direct sound use.
> 
> Last weekend I tuned a local car with one of the first pairs of these installed in a classic Ford Starliner. I used them for all content from 315hz on up and they did not disappoint. The car sounds fantastic!




AF break with Hybrid. Hmmmmm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## benny z

Onyx1136 said:


> That’s so cute. Any idea what the mounting depth on those is? Or MSRP?


Mounting depth is 1.3". I don't know MSRP...I suspect we'll see them on the 12v Electronics and Audio Intensity websites soon (the two authorized online retail points).


----------



## Onyx1136

benny z said:


> Mounting depth is 1.3". I don't know MSRP...I suspect we'll see them on the 12v Electronics and Audio Intensity websites soon (the two authorized online retail points).


That didn’t take long. 

Legatia L2SE Speaker Set - 12v Electronics

Looks like $460, plus free shipping.


----------



## rton20s

Scott at Audio Intensity has them available as well. 

https://audiointensity.com/products/hybrid-audio-legatia-l2se


----------



## Salami

Onyx1136 said:


> That’s so cute. Any idea what the mounting depth on those is? Or MSRP?


MSRP is $580 but apparently can be purchased for less.


----------



## PPI_GUY

rton20s said:


> I think it will become the "go to" processor for budget systems. We've seen what happens when most brands try to bring budget processors to market. How often are we hearing about Massive Audio, Precision Power, Soundstream and Cadence processors these days? The flip side to that is miniDSP and JL Audio. It is tough to beat their combination of feature set and price point. If Dayton lives up to their reputation, they will own the budget DIY market.


We will see. I'd say the market is certainly there but, need to hold off on the excitement until a few people have actually installed and played with them for a while. My hope is that Dayton/P-E is in no hurry to get them to market and fully debug them before offering them for sale. That would be points in their favor IMO. Not having the same issues as other budget DSP's (some mentioned above) would put them far ahead of the game. 

Not going to lie though, when I first re-posted the announcement from the SSQ Facebook Group I was more than a little excited. Because of Dayton's track record of offering quality, reliable and affordable gear if nothing else.


----------



## rton20s

PPI_GUY said:


> We will see. I'd say the market is certainly there but, need to hold off on the excitement until a few people have actually installed and played with them for a while. My hope is that Dayton/P-E is in no hurry to get them to market and fully debug them before offering them for sale. That would be points in their favor IMO. Not having the same issues as other budget DSP's (some mentioned above) would put them far ahead of the game.
> 
> Not going to lie though, when I first re-posted the announcement from the SSQ Facebook Group I was more than a little excited. Because of Dayton's track record of offering quality, reliable and affordable gear if nothing else.


I'm in complete agreement. For the most part Dayton has a pretty stellar reputation for providing bang for the buck gear. Hence my comment and gif above. "On paper" (which we haven't actually seen yet) the Dayton DSP-408 can't lose at $200. If they fail on execution, and it isn't something that can be fixed quickly with software/firmware updates it will be just another "also ran." I'm hopeful/have faith that isn't going to be the case. Even though Geoff was involved.


----------



## Onyx1136

PPI_GUY said:


> We will see. I'd say the market is certainly there but, need to hold off on the excitement until a few people have actually installed and played with them for a while. My hope is that Dayton/P-E is in no hurry to get them to market and fully debug them before offering them for sale. That would be points in their favor IMO. Not having the same issues as other budget DSP's (some mentioned above) would put them far ahead of the game.
> 
> Not going to lie though, when I first re-posted the announcement from the SSQ Facebook Group I was more than a little excited. Because of Dayton's track record of offering quality, reliable and affordable gear if nothing else.


I think those companies that have released failed products help to make what should be the most obvious point, but is frequently overlooked by “manufacturers”. The hardware is the least important part of a DSP. The software is ALWAYS the deciding factor as to the success or failure of digital signal processing. The companies that can actually execute a quality use interface, easy accessibility, and system interoperability are going to be the companies that have a successful, viable product in the long term. 

Quality hardware is cheap in this modern world. A programmer that can write code that produces an easy to use, intuitive, bug free GUI is far more expensive, and much harder to find. Just ask Kicker. This is the factor that will ultimately decide whether the PE processor is a success or a failure.


----------



## bbfoto

Onyx1136 said:


> That didn’t take long.
> 
> Legatia L2SE Speaker Set - 12v Electronics
> 
> Looks like $460, plus free shipping.



I've always liked H.A.T. drivers, but [email protected], IMO $460 is a bit steep for a pair of drivers this size, especially when no grills or other mounting hardware are included. Sure, there aren't a lot of options in this form factor, so it's good to have another option.

I guess the Unity 2 covers the "lower priced" category, but I don't _quite_ see the value in these L2SE when they are priced at $100 More than the DOUBLED PRICE of the Unity 2 pair...$180 vs. $460! 

For that price differential, I'd like to see H.A.T. provide a complete set of independent TS parameter measurements along with a full set of Klippel measurements from Patrick Turnmire/Red Rock Acoustics for BOTH drivers.

(As a side note, if these were available for $360 per pair, I probably would not have been motivated to be whiny and actually make this post. ...even though $360 would still be DOUBLE the price of the Unity 2 drivers).

Having said all that, I'd be really interested to pick up a pair of these soon and do a comparison to the Audiofrog GB25, which are probably its closest competitior.

The GB25 are $400/pair (still a bit too expensive IMO). However, for that price, the GB25 includes Grills + an excellent array of mounting hardware with a multitude of options. It might seem silly, but just the mounting terminals on the GB25 are a big deal to me.

I don't want to derail this thread any further than I already have with this post, so perhaps further discussion should be taken to another thread concerning the H.A.T. L2SE.


----------



## TheOriginalRURC

rton20s said:


>


Hay I was just looking at the photo and I noticed something, how the hell do you mount it?


----------



## benny z

TheOriginalRURC said:


> Hay I was just looking at the photo and I noticed something, how the hell do you mount it?



Velcro. Works great for small processors.


----------



## Weightless

benny z said:


> Velcro. Works great for small processors.


Velcro? For shame! 

Velcro is for childrens shoes and wallets. Lol.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## rton20s

Weightless said:


> Velcro? For shame!
> 
> Velcro is for childrens shoes and wallets. Lol.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


There is always the zip tie route. Or, zip a SMS right through the center of the unit. 

Or, you can call Parts Express and ask Geoff why he designed the case with no mounting feet.


----------



## ErinH

I've velcro'd amps to the carpet when installed under the seat. Industrial strength velcro FTW!


----------



## TheOriginalRURC

benny z said:


> Velcro. Works great for small processors.


I would call Velcro hokey.


----------



## rton20s

TheOriginalRURC said:


> I would call Velcro hokey.


If it is that much of a concern, you can see that there are four socket cap screws per side on the DSP. You can always fabricate (or possibly purchase) some "L" shaped feet that attach with those screws. Or a longer replacement screw to account for the new bracket thickness. Maybe even find a gold replacement screw if you want to get fancy and match the Tiffany style RCAs.


----------



## Weightless

What do the sides look like? Are there threaded holes for mounting brackets?

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## miniSQ

Or fabricate some thing that could be 3m taped to the bottom with screw hole tabs sticking out a little and then screwed down. Good 3m tape ain't going anywhere.

Of course velcro is fine, and who knows, maybe this is a prototype and mounting tabs are coming.


----------



## Weightless

miniSQ said:


> Or fabricate some thing that could be 3m taped to the bottom with screw hole tabs sticking out a little and then screwed down. Good 3m tape ain't going anywhere.
> 
> Of course velcro is fine, and who knows, maybe this is a prototype and mounting tabs are coming.


Bad hobbyist! No soup for you! One year!

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## TheOriginalRURC

rton20s said:


> If it is that much of a concern, you can see that there are four socket cap screws per side on the DSP. You can always fabricate (or possibly purchase) some "L" shaped feet that attach with those screws. Or a longer replacement screw to account for the new bracket thickness. Maybe even find a gold replacement screw if you want to get fancy and match the Tiffany style RCAs.


I work in R&D and I could easily design and 3D print something to hold the unit down properly. My point is that I should not have to. The engineer should have the forethought to say 'I have to put this in a car, maybe I should anchor it.' It may seem like a small thing to you but proper ergonomics are just as important, and at times more important, than the working of the unit. If this unit comes to market I promise that I will not be the only one asking that question. Something like that wont stop me from buying it, because I have the ability to make a proper work around. But what about the average end user?


----------



## benny z

Maybe they’ll include the Velcro.


----------



## rton20s

TheOriginalRURC said:


> I work in R&D and I could easily design and 3D print something to hold the unit down properly. My point is that I should not have to. The engineer should have the forethought to say 'I have to put this in a car, maybe I should anchor it.' It may seem like a small thing to you but proper ergonomics are just as important, and at times more important, than the working of the unit. If this unit comes to market I promise that I will not be the only one asking that question. Something like that wont stop me from buying it, because I have the ability to make a proper work around. But what about the average end user?


I think one thing you may not understand is that car audio is NOT Dayton's primary market. They're focus is on home audio and DIYers. Take a look at most of the home audio DSPs. They do not include mounting feet. In most cases, you're lucky to get a set of rubber feet for the unit to sit on. 

I get it. We all have expectations and "wants" for products we may potentially use. The bottom line is, it is Dayton, it is $200, you're going to have to figure out how to mount it yourself.


----------



## Weightless

rton20s said:


> I think one thing you may not understand is that car audio is NOT Dayton's primary market. They're focus is on home audio and DIYers. Take a look at most of the home audio DSPs. They do not include mounting feet. In most cases, you're lucky to get a set of rubber feet for the unit to sit on.
> 
> I get it. We all have expectations and "wants" for products we may potentially use. The bottom line is, it is Dayton, it is $200, you're going to have to figure out how to mount it yourself.


Of course they cater to the home market first, then car audio, but this is a glaring oversight. 

It's not like they don't have anyone that works there that isn't into car audio. I'm sure they did their research, but they missed this one little detail. The fact that it costs $200 shouldn't factor into the fact that it was overlooked. Probably a simple mistake.

To me, this unit was designed as a car dsp that can be used in the home. If it was the other way around they would have put the I/O on the same side. They staggered it to keep the size small for the car world.

That being said, I hope it sells well. I will definitely buy one to play with. I have a few up coming installs that could use this, especially at that price point. If the GUI is done well and there is no noise, then this has the potential to sell like hot cakes. 

Making a bracket to hold it is easy, I had to do it for the APL1, it can easily be done for this as well.



Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge_off_me

TheOriginalRURC said:


> Hay I was just looking at the photo and I noticed something, how the hell do you mount it?


I'm getting tilted over here.

There are mounting locations on the side for angled mounts that would then offer the user the ability to top mount or bottom mount the processor.


----------



## Ge_off_me

Do you all think I would design a case that wouldn't have mounting options provided? I'm pretty insulted, honestly.


----------



## Weightless

Thats good to hear. I was asking about the sides, but didn't get a response. 

So it's a non issue then. 

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## rton20s

Ge_off_me said:


> I'm getting tilted over here.
> 
> There are mounting locations on the side for angled mounts that would then offer the user the ability to top mount or bottom mount the processor.


First, what's with the MCM in your profile picture? (Not cool on the ninja edit of the profile picture.)

Second, will you be providing the angled mounts and fasteners? And if so, will they be supplied in a variety of fastener types and finishes to coordinate with end users specific preferences? 

Third, what if I want to side, rather than top or bottom mount the processor?

And finally, does is your professional installation come with the $200 purchase price of each unit?


----------



## Ge_off_me

rton20s said:


> First, what's with the MCM in your profile picture? (Not cool on the ninja edit of the profile picture.)
> 
> Second, will you be providing the angled mounts and fasteners? And if so, will they be supplied in a variety of fastener types and finishes to coordinate with end users specific preferences?
> 
> Third, what if I want to side, rather than top or bottom mount the processor?
> 
> And finally, does is your professional installation come with the $200 purchase price of each unit?


My ninja edit is included in the price of the DSP.

The right angle mounts are provided with the DSP, with 2 small screws per side to attach them. If you can't figure out a good way to mount them beyond that... Maybe JT can help 

You could always turn the mounting surface on its side, that usually works.

You wouldn't want me to install it...


----------



## benny z

Ge_off_me said:


> Do you all think I would design a case that wouldn't have mounting options provided? I'm pretty insulted, honestly.


I mean, Velcro would've been just fine.


----------



## Ge_off_me

benny z said:


> I mean, Velcro would've been just fine.


I will send you velcro, personally


----------



## rton20s

benny z said:


> I mean, Velcro would've been just fine.


Better than my plan...


----------



## TheOriginalRURC

Ge_off_me said:


> Do you all think I would design a case that wouldn't have mounting options provided? I'm pretty insulted, honestly.


Really it just seemed like an oversite to me. In the car audio end we are used to having holes somewhere to put a screw. So when I did not see any I got to wondering. Even my McIntosh amps and x-overs have tabs for mounting.

Thank you for the new information.:laugh:


----------



## Ge_off_me

TheOriginalRURC said:


> Really it just seemed like an oversite to me. In the car audio end we are used to having holes somewhere to put a screw. So when I did not see any I got to wondering. Even my McIntosh amps and x-overs have tabs for mounting.
> 
> Thank you for the new information.:laugh:


It's my natural environment. I drew the case from the ground up in CAD and knew what I wanted from the get go. I'm not going to short-change the guys in my own hobby if I can help it


----------



## ANDRESVELASCO

Ge_off_me said:


> It's my natural environment. I drew the case from the ground up in CAD and knew what I wanted from the get go. I'm not going to short-change the guys in my own hobby if I can help it


Any reason beside the price ti not include a digital input?


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## Ge_off_me

ANDRESVELASCO said:


> Any reason beside the price ti not include a digital input?


Price is the main reason, aside from that, very few people make use of the digital input on processors, somewhere around 10% or so. We are right where we want to be on pricing.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Ge_off_me said:


> Price is the main reason, aside from that, very few people make use of the digital input on processors, somewhere around 10% or so. We are right where we want to be on pricing.


Where are you guys right now with this little DSP? Still on schedule for a March launch? 
Honestly, if it takes an extra month or so to workout all the bugs (if there are any) in the soft/firmware, I think we'd all be willing to wait. 
Too many here have already been burned by previous "budget-minded" DSP's.


----------



## Ge_off_me

PPI_GUY said:


> Where are you guys right now with this little DSP? Still on schedule for a March launch?
> Honestly, if it takes an extra month or so to workout all the bugs (if there are any) in the soft/firmware, I think we'd all be willing to wait.
> Too many here have already been burned by previous "budget-minded" DSP's.


We are working out some of the little bits and pieces in the software right now. I'm expecting an April launch, due to them delaying an aspect of production and leading us into Chinese New Year.

The software as of right now is pretty fluid, with only a couple small drawbacks, which is to be expected with a product that is targetting multiple audiences and is priced affordably. I do know that as of right now, I do not see anything that would cause any real concern.


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## ANDRESVELASCO

Ge_off_me said:


> We are working out some of the little bits and pieces in the software right now. I'm expecting an April launch, due to them delaying an aspect of production and leading us into Chinese New Year.
> 
> The software as of right now is pretty fluid, with only a couple small drawbacks, which is to be expected with a product that is targetting multiple audiences and is priced affordably. I do know that as of right now, I do not see anything that would cause any real concern.


Well, you have a great opportunity in the industry... Make it remarkable... Cheers :beerchug:


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## PPI_GUY

Ge_off_me said:


> We are working out some of the little bits and pieces in the software right now. I'm expecting an April launch, due to them delaying an aspect of production and leading us into Chinese New Year.
> 
> The software as of right now is pretty fluid, with only a couple small drawbacks, which is to be expected with a product that is targetting multiple audiences and is priced affordably. I do know that as of right now, I do not see anything that would cause any real concern.


Sounds great. Best not to rush it, do everything possible to get it right from the get-go. As someone else said, you guys have a unique opportunity here and if you hit the mark you won't be able to make them fast enough. 
Please keep us updated!


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## TheOriginalRURC

ANDRESVELASCO said:


> Any reason beside the price ti not include a digital input?


I just this last weekend got introduced to a little JL Audio product that is a bluetooth receiver and gives you a low level output that just plugs into any RCA inputs.

I am getting one if the DSP I buy does not have this option already.


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## TheOriginalRURC

PPI_GUY said:


> Sounds great. Best not to rush it, do everything possible to get it right from the get-go. As someone else said, you guys have a unique opportunity here and if you hit the mark you won't be able to make them fast enough.
> Please keep us updated!


I have never owned a Dayton product (Other than Dayton Wire Wheels LOL) and I am wondering how this would compare to the Stetsom STX2448. I had never given this one much thought but this past weekend I came across someone running one and was impressed a bit. Granted it does not have a 1/3 octive EQ but 15 bands is good for the price point.But it seems to me that selling at between $180 and $200 is your competition. The owner was very nice. He literally took the time to show and demonstrate every single option it does. I was surprised with it.


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## robtr8

TheOriginalRURC said:


> I just this last weekend got introduced to a little JL Audio product that is a bluetooth receiver and gives you a low level output that just plugs into any RCA inputs.
> 
> I am getting one if the DSP I buy does not have this option already.


If you mean the MBT-RX, then yup, good stuff. Been using one in the boat and convertible for the last couple years as my only input.
If you mean the MBT-CRX, then nope, bad stuff. The "volume" adjustment is actually adjusting the BT volume on the phone. Great idea that is crap IRL.


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## PPI_GUY

TheOriginalRURC said:


> I have never owned a Dayton product (Other than Dayton Wire Wheels LOL) and I am wondering how this would compare to the Stetsom STX2448. I had never given this one much thought but this past weekend I came across someone running one and was impressed a bit. Granted it does not have a 1/3 octive EQ but 15 bands is good for the price point.But it seems to me that selling at between $180 and $200 is your competition. The owner was very nice. He literally took the time to show and demonstrate every single option it does. I was surprised with it.


I have no familiarity with the Stetsom STX2448 but, I may try to read up on it. My confidence in Dayton comes mostly from their high 'bang for the buck' track record. Specifically with raw drivers. 
Also own a set of inexpensive bookshelf Dayton's that have overachieved and been pretty durable.


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## SQram

robtr8 said:


> If you mean the MBT-RX, then yup, good stuff. Been using one in the boat and convertible for the last couple years as my only input.
> If you mean the MBT-CRX, then nope, bad stuff. The "volume" adjustment is actually adjusting the BT volume on the phone. Great idea that is crap IRL.


I have the MBT-CRX in my boat and love it. I'd rather adjust volume from the source rather than dig my phone out of my pocket. To each their own...


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## benny z

SQram said:


> I have the MBT-CRX in my boat and love it. I'd rather adjust volume from the source rather than dig my phone out of my pocket. To each their own...




I bought a simple Bluetooth volume/track control remote to pair with my phone for controlling volume/track easily while using a USB input into the proc/amp in my truck.


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## TheOriginalRURC

robtr8 said:


> If you mean the MBT-RX, then yup, good stuff. Been using one in the boat and convertible for the last couple years as my only input.
> If you mean the MBT-CRX, then nope, bad stuff. The "volume" adjustment is actually adjusting the BT volume on the phone. Great idea that is crap IRL.


You made me go look at my photos of the truck. It is the MBT-RX. The guy had nothing but praise for it. He demoed it for me and it worked very well and simple.

I am going to try to post the photo. Seeing that Photobucket has decided to screw all of us long term users I am trying something new.








[/URL][/IMG]


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## ANDRESVELASCO

TheOriginalRURC said:


> You made me go look at my photos of the truck. It is the MBT-RX. The guy had nothing but praise for it. He demoed it for me and it worked very well and simple.
> 
> I am going to try to post the photo. Seeing that Photobucket has decided to screw all of us long term users I am trying something new.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]


Brain note:

MTB-RX: Good stuf.
MTX-CRX: Crap.

Done.


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## EricP72

Ge_off_me said:


> We are working out some of the little bits and pieces in the software right now. I'm expecting an April launch, due to them delaying an aspect of production and leading us into Chinese New Year.
> 
> The software as of right now is pretty fluid, with only a couple small drawbacks, which is to be expected with a product that is targetting multiple audiences and is priced affordably. I do know that as of right now, I do not see anything that would cause any real concern.


I hate to be that guy but are there any plans for a second model that includes more outputs, like a 10 channel or 12 channel of course with a higher price point say $250? Does Dayton plan to offer continued Software support as in updates/ Upgrades?


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## rton20s

manish said:


> I hate to be that guy but are there any plans for a second model that includes more outputs, like a 10 channel or 12 channel of course with a higher price point say $250? Does Dayton plan to offer continued Software support as in updates/ Upgrades?


I've heard there will be a $400 unit with 16 channels. Model number DSP-408 (x2). The unit is provided with 4 channels in, 8 out on each of two small, independent units for your mounting convenience.


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## Ge_off_me

manish said:


> Ge_off_me said:
> 
> 
> 
> We are working out some of the little bits and pieces in the software right now. I'm expecting an April launch, due to them delaying an aspect of production and leading us into Chinese New Year.
> 
> The software as of right now is pretty fluid, with only a couple small drawbacks, which is to be expected with a product that is targetting multiple audiences and is priced affordably. I do know that as of right now, I do not see anything that would cause any real concern.
> 
> 
> 
> I hate to be that guy but are there any plans for a second model that includes more outputs, like a 10 channel or 12 channel of course with a higher price point say $250? Does Dayton plan to offer continued Software support as in updates/ Upgrades?
Click to expand...

I hate for you to be that guy too, as the unit isn't even released yet.

We will support the unit in house, and we will offer updates, to what extent, I cannot say, ad there is a lifespan to every product.

Currently no plans on a larger unit, just use 2 of them


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