# DIYMA 8" Mid/Bass Comparison (shinjohn)



## shinjohn

Disclaimer: I do not consider myself expert at all in this field, and I realize that my test method is flawed in many, many, ways. There are plenty of confounding variables that impact my subjective evaluation of these speakers. As such, I present as much information as possible about my test methodology, so you can make your own judgements on the relevance of this information. Please feel free to comment freely on my methods, other data that may be in conflict with my opinions, or your own (similar or dissimilar) opinions.

*Background Info*
Thanks again to npdang, who has gratiously provided the opportunity for us DIYers to audition multiple drivers in this fashion!!!!!

References and other relevant reviews:

Information on free 8” mid/bass auditions through diymobileaudio.com 
Objective test data and npdang’s comments on all the drivers  
 Audiotechnology Cquenze 8" Review 
Peerless SLS review 
Peerless XLS review
 Peerless HDS 8" (830884) 
Dayton Reference RS225-4
Dayton DC200

I just did a quick scan to compile review threads. There are many, many, other excellent review threads here, so I'd recommend anyone shopping for 8” woofers to use the search function to find more info on drivers!

*The Drivers*
top row: Morel MW 266, Aura Sound NSF8-495-4A, Peerless SLS 830667
bottom row: Dayton RS225, Seas L22RN4X/P, Tang Band W8-740C









Side view, showing relative mounting depth:









Rainbow W160 Reference 165mm mid/bass:









Seas Lotus Reference CW21EX001:









*Test Set Up/Method*
This test was conducted in two parts:
1) In-home listening, with drivers mounted in "optimized" enclosures with fewer environmental influences.
2) In-car (in-door, that is), as part of a 3-way front stage in a fully active mobile sound system.

In-Home Test (similar to tweeter set up rig)
Carpeted family room, approx. 12' wide x 15' deep in dimension (8' ceilings). 

_Associated Gear_
- Yamaha MCX-1000 as source unit (PCM playback)
- Yamaha CX-800U preamp
- Behringer CX3400 active crossover
- Adcom GFA-535 amp (high pass to mini monitors)
- Mini monitor: Seas 22TAF/G and Dayton RS-125S crossed at about 3.2KHz
- Onkyo TX-DS676 receiver running low pass to the 8” woofers
- 3/4" MDF test cabinet, sealed AND vented configurations

First, I used WinISD to calculate optimal (optimally flat) sealed volume for the drivers. Below shows a plot of the modeled response of the 6 original test woofers per WinISD.

Sealed Enclosure Modeled Response of 6 Test Woofers (Qtc=0.707)








Dayton RS225: 28.3 liters, f3=60Hz
Morel MW 266: 134.7 liters optimal, 41.1 liters used, f3=41Hz
Peerless SLS 830667: 41.1 liters, f3=47Hz
Seas L22RN4X/P: 18.6 liters, f3=51Hz
Tang Band W8-740C: 5.1 liters, f3=66Hz
Aura Sound NSF8-495-4A: 2.7 liters, f3=94Hz

I then fabricated a 41.1 l sealed enclosure with a removable front baffle. This volume represented the largest volume required (sans the Morel) for the original driver set. I also made a variety of baffles to account for the different mounting diameters of the drivers.

Test Cabinet Details, Build Pictures, Drivers Mounted:





























































I listened to each woofer in succession, and used bricks to reduce the volume of the enclosure to match each driver's optimal alignment. I used Acousta-stuff, per manufacturer's recommendations, ~1lb/ft^3. Drivers were countersunk as shown. Low pass crossover points were adjusted during the test, but no equalization was utilized during these sessions. Crossover frequency was varied from about 200Hz up to 1 KHz. No high pass filter was utilized on the woofers.

Below is a picture of the listening setup with the test cabinet (bottom) and monitor (top). Note that the middle speaker was not used during this test (it was just an expensive speaker stand).

In-home listening set up:









Upon completion of the sealed cabinet listening, three of the drivers were tested in a ported configuration. Again, WinISD was used to model the response, and since the enclosure was already built to 41.1 liters volume, two tuning alignments were chosen with this cabinet: 34Hz and 29Hz. Below is a plot of the modeled vented response of the three woofers tested.

Vented Response of 3 Test Woofers








Dayton RS225: tuned to 34 Hz, f3=36Hz
Seas L22RN4X/P: tuned to 29 Hz, f3=29Hz
Tang Band W8-740C: tuned to 34 Hz, f3=35Hz

Pictures of cabinet modified with 2” vent
















In-Car Test
All listening was performed in Peter's (alphakenny1) Honda Accord 

_Associated Gear_
- Alpine W200/H701 Combo
- PPI Art series running Rainbow Cal 27s in kicks
- JL Audio 450/4, two channels running Lotus 4.5s in kicks, 2 channels on door mid/basses

Drivers installed in-car:







































The in-car listening was broken out into 2 sessions. In the first session, the Lotus 8s were listened to as a reference, and then the driver’s side woofer was swapped out. In this first session, the Peerless SLS, Rainbow, and Aura Sound were auditioned in the driver’s door, compared against the Lotus 8 in the passenger’s door. During the 2nd session, the car was initially configured with the Peerless SLS in both doors, and then the passenger side door’s woofer was swapped. The 2nd round included the Dayton RS225, Seas L22, and Morel MW 266, compared to the Peerless SLS in the driver’s door. For each woofer, at each listening session, some minor tweaking of the crossover frequency and EQ was made, but all were crossed (low passed) ~200-300Hz. High pass filters were also adjusted based on the speaker’s low f output capability.

*Source Material*
Since this evaluation was particularly for mid-bass & bass evaluation, the following test tracks were put together for this test: (and yes, I do admit to listening to all of this music)

(Jazz) Ray Obiedo: “No Fiesta”, “Beehave Yourself”
(Rock) The Eagles, “Hotel California”
(Classical) Josh Groban, “Alla Luce Del Sole”
(Dance/Electronic) New Order, “Bizarre Love Triangle”, “Vanishing Point”
(Latin/Pop) Marc Anthony, “I Need You” 
(Pop) Jack Johnson, “Upside Down”
(Electronic/Pop): A-ha, “Take on Me”
(Rock): Evanescence, “Bring Me To Life”
The test tracks were chosen primarily for their mid-bass content as well as “fun factor”. (why else would you want to put an 8”driver in your door? ) The same music selections were used both in-home and in-car, though various other tracks were used at home as well.

Note that all pictures in this thread can be viewed in full resolution here:
http://www.pbase.com/shinjohn/woofreviews&page=all

*Detailed Reviews*
Rather than try to list order these drivers based on my tastes (as I did with tweeters), I’ve attempted to give 1-10 ratings on specific categories, and then verbally describe their characteristic sound. This because I believe everyone has a different application and different ideas on what will make an ideal mid/bass. 

About my own biases: from my perspective, if I were describe my perfect car mid/bass it would have: good, low end extension in a car door, high ease of use (require less equalization/response shaping, fit fairly easily in a car door), a fast & “snappy” sound quality, and great ultimate output capability. I would personally seek to use an 8” to take over where a larger (4.5”) cone mid left off in a 3-way application, so I probably value the ability to play high somewhat lower in my subjective comments. Keep that in mind.

Aura Sound NSF8-495-4A
Value: 6
Build Quality: 7
Ease of Use: 7
Output Capability: 5

This is a very unique driver, in terms of design. To be honest, I was pretty impressed with the reverse motor mount; a very clever design that keeps the driver very, very shallow in terms of mounting depth. I gave it higher marks for build quality as a result, but thought that the exposed spider on the back side is a little dicey…. And, in as far as ease of use, the shallow mounting depth makes this a cinch to install in a door; you’re not going to find better than this if you have limited depth!

However, I was not able to make this woofer perform in a way that was pleasing to me. Both at home and in car, this woofer sounded the weakest out of the group. Take a look at Nguyen’s measurements and you’ll see the lack of low end extension. Modeled in its tiny little (optimum sealed) box, f3 is only 94 Hz, which isn’t really low enough for those of us looking for some good mid-bass output. The resultant sound reminded me of a pro-audio woofer in a (smaller) sealed box; lack of low end extension, and more emphasis going into the lower midrange. In car, the response was better, but mounting in a door free air didn’t do them justice IMO, even with cabin gain.

On the other hand, if you needed a higher playing 8”, this may not be a bad choice, and with the right sub to take over the low end, it might be quite a good performer. I’ve also heard this driver mounted in a small vented box in Steve’s (Whiterabbit) Civic, and I was impressed at how well that thing slammed. My only regret is that I did not build a small vented box for this thing in my home to test. Modeling predicts it will get down to 55Hz (f3) with only 4 liters of volume at home. My bet is that I would have been much happier with this puppy configured that way. But I wasn’t about to go and build custom enclosures for every woofer!

Dayton Reference RS225-4
Value: 10
Build Quality: 7
Ease of Use: 5
Output Capability: 7

I don’t think I can say more than what’s already been said about this driver. It’s an INCREDIBLE value at $43. The driver is quite beautiful with its black anodized cone & phase plug, nice rubber magnet boot, and wonderful push terminals. Dayton did a great job on the reference series all around. Looking for something that can definitely handle the lower mid range well? This would be your ticket.

My beef with this driver is that, out of the box, it doesn’t sound like a bass driver. It really does sound like a midrange. If you really wanted to use this for dedicated mid-bass duty, you’ll want to cross it lower and shape its response curve to even out the midrange and boost up the lowest octaves. Not the most easily used, so your tuning skills better be good if you want the most out of this driver. In home, I felt this driver did a lot better tonally with the vented enclosure and a low crossover point, as opposed to sealed. Even so, I felt it didn’t have that tight, thumpy sound I was expecting from it. I had such high hopes for the Dayton, and was probably the most disappointed with this one after hearing it. Sorry Dayton. Incredible value, but not my cup of tea.

Morel MW 266
Value: 5
Build Quality: 6
Ease of Use: 8.5
Output Capability: 6

There’s nothing really special to note about the design of this woofer, except for the large 3” voice coil, and shallow mounting depth (which make this attractive for some installs). Of course being a Morel, it’s a bit on the pricey side.

Upon first installation into my 41.1 liter sealed box, I thought the sound was pretty terrible. It sounded boxy; clearly, the volume of the enclosure was too small. It was peaky, and just not very pleasant to listen to. WinISD predicts optimally flat response with over 3x the volume I gave it. Unfortunately, I didn’t want to build a 135 liter enclosure just for this woofer, but it made me think hard about how it might work in a car…..

When I finally moved outside and installed this in a car door, it was a night and day difference. This speaker’s parameters are well suited for car door use, and for the person who doesn’t want a lot of tuning headaches, this one is a good choice. It sounds very full and surprisingly balanced without any EQ, and adjusting the crossover was a snap. It also played higher quite well, if you need that. The mid-bass was very punchy, and I don’t think many would complain about its sound quality overall.

Having said that, this woofer did run out of steam a lot faster than some of the competition here. It showed its weakness on the very lowest notes, where it ran out of excursion. And if I want to be picky, it also wasn’t as refined or accurate IMO as the best performers here. However, if you need a shallow woofer that plays high and is easy to tune, I think the Morel would be a nice choice. Just be sure to run a sub too.

Peerless SLS 830667
Value: 9.5
Build Quality: 7
Ease of Use: 8
Output Capability: 9

So this driver looks pretty unassuming: a simple treated paper cone, stamped metal basket… It honestly didn’t look too impressive on the outside. But, it does have a shorting ring inside, and the bumped back plate gives you an indication that there’s something else good in there! Just an OK looking driver, with a somewhat larger mounting depth, it didn’t strike me as an obvious choice for a car mid/bass driver.

However, from a sound quality perspective, this driver hands down impressed me the most. Starting off listening in the home, I was super impressed with the cleanliness of sound in the sealed enclosure. It really did produce bass the way I always thought it should be produced: tight (well controlled), clean, tonally correct, and best of all, LOUD! In home I could not fault it on anything, and it was heads and shoulders above everything else below 500Hz. Integration with my monitor was near perfect. So good was the Peerless that I decided upon hearing it that my planned tower project (which was to use the Dayton RS225S-8) would be rethought. (I hope this doesn’t prevent me from selling my Daytons though )

Moving on to in-car listening, the results there were just as impressive, if not more so. Even with the car’s transfer function, I thought the Peerless sounded quite good “out of the box”, and a huge amount of tuning wasn’t needed to make them sound balanced. However, more impressive was the Peerless’ ability to play VERY LOW with a very high level of output! They easily played down to 20Hz, turning Peter’s door pods into little rattle machines. Don’t even think about using these in a door unless you’ve done an exceptional job deadening, and have rigidly attached the drivers to the door metal, not the door panels.

These drivers are what convinced me to finally gut my daily driver and take a new approach. (or at least this is today’s plan ) I felt that the output was so good with these that I could see myself losing my (2) 12” subwoofers in the trunk in favor of a pair of these installed in the doors (as part of a 3-way front stage). Ambitious, yes, but I think it’d be killer from an SQ perspective. I could also gain trunk space back, which would be goodness…..

Now if I had to nitpick, the one slightly negative thing I noticed during the in-car session was that these drivers did sound a tiny less snappy in the mid (kick) bass region than the Lotus 8s, and even the Seas L22s. Now this was pretty subtle, and I don’t think I would have noticed if I didn’t listen side by side with these other drivers. On the other hand, neither of the Seas played as low or with as much output/authority. One thing I didn’t get to do was to see if I could tune the Peerless a little better, to even them out a little bit. I bet an experienced tuner could get them about perfect sounding, because they are probably just slightly bottom heavy right out of the box, in a car door. One last thing: this driver isn’t a good choice if you need something to play up to 1 KHz. Won’t do it.

Seas L22RN4X/P
Value: 8
Build Quality: 7
Ease of Use: 8
Output Capability: 8.5

Seas drivers are very popular amongst the DIY crowd, for good reason. This unit is representative of Seas overall standards of quality in their products. Very solid design and value. Longer throw voice coil than the prior version. ‘nuf said.

In home, this driver impressed me almost as much as the Peerless. Very smooth sound. Completely controlled and articulate. Now I’ll admit that in a sealed enclosure, this driver did sound slightly thin on the bottom end, so that’s why I decided to try it in a vented alignment. I’m glad I did. It was just the ticket to get the response shaped to my liking. This one is just all around a great driver for mid-bass.

In car, this driver also really impressed me a lot. For some reason I was thinking it wouldn’t sound as good in a car door, or that it wouldn’t compare at all to the Lotus in terms of “snappyness” in the mid (kick) bass region. This simply wasn’t true; it performed very close to the Lotus in this regard: so close that I don’t think people would tell the difference if it were tuned up properly.

For those on a budget, with enough room in the door panel for some depth, I couldn’t more heartily recommend this driver or the Peerless SLS. If you want a little more snappy sound, and either don’t mind using a sub or boosting the very low end, go for this driver. If you want to try to go sub-less and need the best low end response, at the most miniscule loss of a little kick, the SLS is the way to go.

Tang Band W8-740C
Value: 7.5
Build Quality: 4
Ease of Use: 3
Output Capability: 9.5

OK. It’s ugly. It’s big. It’s heavy. How in the HECK would someone mount this monster in a car door? Well, if someone does it, I wanna check it out!  Honestly, I don’t ever see this driver being used in a car door. It’s simply too big (deep) and heavy. This thing is a monster. The magnet is so big, the driver is almost unwieldy to handle. The magnet also sends off an ENORMOUS amount of stray flux. I was holding it while on the computer one day and noticed it affected my computer CRT more than 16 inches away! And yes, it’s cheap, and probably the best value if you are shopping to optimize price/weight ratio.

So the one redeeming quality of this driver is that it is a little THUMPER. It can really pound out bass. Probably the “fun-est” driver to listen to in home, when playing “Vanishing Point” by New Order. It was a monster in the vented box, and no tame Jane in the sealed either. I never tried it in-car because we couldn’t make it fit. No way.

OK, so now the bad news. It’s a one-trick pony. It seems to play one note, really well, and really loud. I have visions of some “boomer” installing a wall of these things in his truck so that he can be heard a mile away…  But this boomer better have some awesome amps because this driver is inefficient. It’s a power-monger, and you need to feed it to make it play. Funny story: as I was trying to get this to shake a rafter lose in my house, I was able to push my receiver into thermal shutdown. Yeah; it needs power. Let’s move on…..

_So now, a couple of car-audio specific drivers for comparison…._
Seas Lotus Reference 8” CW21EX001
Value: 2 (practically impossible to buy now)
Build Quality: 9
Ease of Use: 9.5
Output Capability: 8.5

Thanks to Peter for letting me audition these wonderful speakers, and also use his car for the in-car test!

The reference standard for an 8” car-specific mid/bass. Obviously only listened to this one in-car, and it lives up to its fine reputation for quality of sound. The punchiest (snappy) driver of the test group, and also very easy to work with as it is obviously designed for car door use. Doesn’t play as low as the Peerless, but that’s no big deal; if you own these, you probably have the finest subs money can buy in your trunk too. 

Good luck finding a pair.

 Rainbow W160 Reference (165mm)
Value: 1 (I think you need to sell a kidney to buy a pair of these)
Build Quality: 9 (at least perceived)
Ease of Use: 10
Output Capability: N/A

This famed driver came courtesy of Steve (Whiterabbit) who I would like to thank sincerely for untrusting this to me for this test!!!!!

OK, so these drivers sure LOOK amazing, even though I don’t know anything about the motor design or inner workings. Inside a small sealed enclosure in my home, they obviously sounded terrible…. No surprise, so we took them out to the car, and they really shined when mounted in a door.

Out of the box, probably the most tonally correct out of the test group. Balanced, with good control and extension. Not the least bit heavy on the low end, like the Peerless was (slightly). This one gets top marks on usability because of its small size (yes, not fair to compare a 165mm driver, but oh well!) and great “out-of the-box” sound. I doubt it would score well on output capability, for obvious reasons. I did not test for fear of having to buy one of these beauties.

I would say that I would never indulge in a speaker like this, but hey, if you’ve got the bucks and want the very best money can buy, I can’t knock these speakers. I really wonder though, how they would compare to something like the Extremis or other long excursion 6.5s/7s….. That would be another interesting test…..


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## shinjohn

N-
Sorry it took so long to get this posted up. It took me ALOT longer to write up then expected. There was just a HUGE amount of work required to document what I actually did. Hope you and others enjoy!

Now I can go back to playing around with more speakers!


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## shinjohn

Blank post in case needed for future use...


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## Beau

This was a PLEASURE to read.

Thank you.

Great, not good, explanation and "walk through".

Truly a terrific test.


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## yermolovd

Although I've already got myself L22s, I appreciate your time to do the tests! Fun read!

Thanks!


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## kappa546

awesome review. thanks so much for taking the time and effort to put this together. A++


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## mvw2

You just went above and beyond what most sane people would do. 

Thanks!


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## alphakenny1

i must say, testing out the rainbow speakers, i was very scared, lol. didn't want to blow em and them have to pay for it. 

overall it was a pretty fun day. shinjohn, jay and I had a blast doing it.


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## shinjohn

mvw2 said:


> You just went above and beyond what most sane people would do.
> 
> Thanks!


Yeah, I think I was going in sane typing this dang thing up! 



alphakenny1 said:


> i must say, testing out the rainbow speakers, i was very scared, lol. didn't want to blow em and them have to pay for it.
> 
> overall it was a pretty fun day. shinjohn, jay and I had a blast doing it.


Definitely agree. And that's why we do it; it's all in good fun! Thanks again for the use of the car. You comin' back over soon to show me those new Rainbows? When do you get them, or are they installed?


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## demon2091tb

Hehe gonna have to break this down into a few days worth of reading, very nice looking, can't wait to get into the meat of the testing.


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## alphakenny1

shinjohn said:


> Definitely agree. And that's why we do it; it's all in good fun! Thanks again for the use of the car. You comin' back over soon to show me those new Rainbows? When do you get them, or are they installed?


yea sure i'll stop by when i get them. not sure when i'm getting the rainbows in. mr 3.5max6spd would know the answer.


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## jearhart

good stuff, ive been waiting to read this review and it didnt dissapoint.


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## quality_sound

Which driver would you recommend if I DID need one to go to 1KHz? My other option is to cross my MD140/2sat 500Hz-ish with a MUCH sharper slope than the 6dB Dyn uses. If I did that which one would you recommend?


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## FoxPro5

Once again, a fantastic review from ShinJohn!! 

I thought I recognized those Assman door pods!  

Thanks to all of you to bing us this info...it's priceless.


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## DS-21

Thanks for the comparison. The other thing is, all the rest of you finally coming around to what a standout performer the SLS8 is - over two years late, from my perspective  - means that sooner rather than later prices are going to go up. They already have once, but that was more or less just to adjust for the lower buying power of the US dollar.

I'm glad I got mine when I did!


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## alphakenny1

oh also i'd like to mention the SLS were receiving 75 watts each and they absolutely pounded. the marc anthony track and hotel california was insanely clean, punchy and balanced. for the normal person looking for bass up front the sls again is a great choice and it doesn't need much power.


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## shinjohn

alphakenny1 said:


> shinjohn, jay and I had a blast doing it.


BTW, big props to Jon and Peter, two of my bay area "partners in crime". 
Thanks for lending your ears and time too!!!!

Also, DS-21 is right about the SLSs....... I would bet good money this driver suffers a similar fate as the XLS 8", and the recently discontinued Exclusive 4.5" 830881. It'll become a sought after commodity once it goes out of production!


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## dBassHz

Thanks for the detailed review and pictures! The Peerless SLS 8s output is absolutely awesome. And it is definitely the best midbass (for car applications) currently in production. Its too bad the motor was too frickin' big for my ride. But I'm glad the JL 8IB4s are no slouches either.


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## shinjohn

quality_sound said:


> Which driver would you recommend if I DID need one to go to 1KHz? My other option is to cross my MD140/2sat 500Hz-ish with a MUCH sharper slope than the 6dB Dyn uses. If I did that which one would you recommend?


If I had to choose among the group here for your application, I'd probably say the Morel. However, given that you already run Dynaudio, why not go to the MW170? They're not cheap, but would definitely match up well.


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## quality_sound

shinjohn said:


> If I had to choose among the group here for your application, I'd probably say the Morel. However, given that you already run Dynaudio, why not go to the MW170? They're not cheap, but would definitely match up well.



Exploring options mostly. The 172s aren't cheap. Plus the Dyns aren't the most efficient things in the world. I'll have to call Emilios and see about some 172s and some 102s.


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## alphakenny1

i say some seas lotus reference 8's . they can play up to 1khz. i have mine for sale.


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## SteveLPfreak

shinjohn said:


> BTW, big props to Jon and Peter, two of my bay area "partners in crime".
> Thanks for lending your ears and time too!!!!
> 
> Also, DS-21 is right about the SLSs....... I would bet good money this driver suffers a similar fate as the XLS 8", and the recently discontinued Exclusive 4.5" 830881. It'll become a sought after commodity once it goes out of production!


I, too, would bet on the SLS 8's being discontinued in the near future. For $120/pr, tough to pass up.

Great review.


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## 8675309

Nice review.


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## Patrick Bateman

shinjohn said:


> Tang Band W8-740C
> Value: 7.5
> Build Quality: 4
> Ease of Use: 3
> Output Capability: 9.5
> 
> OK. It’s ugly. It’s big. It’s heavy. How in the HECK would someone mount this monster in a car door? Well, if someone does it, I wanna check it out!  Honestly, I don’t ever see this driver being used in a car door. It’s simply too big (deep) and heavy. This thing is a monster. The magnet is so big, the driver is almost unwieldy to handle. The magnet also sends off an ENORMOUS amount of stray flux. I was holding it while on the computer one day and noticed it affected my computer CRT more than 16 inches away! And yes, it’s cheap, and probably the best value if you are shopping to optimize price/weight ratio.
> 
> So the one redeeming quality of this driver is that it is a little THUMPER. It can really pound out bass. Probably the “fun-est” driver to listen to in home, when playing “Vanishing Point” by New Order. It was a monster in the vented box, and no tame Jane in the sealed either. I never tried it in-car because we couldn’t make it fit. No way.
> 
> OK, so now the bad news. It’s a one-trick pony. It seems to play one note, really well, and really loud. I have visions of some “boomer” installing a wall of these things in his truck so that he can be heard a mile away…  But this boomer better have some awesome amps because this driver is inefficient. It’s a power-monger, and you need to feed it to make it play. Funny story: as I was trying to get this to shake a rafter lose in my house, I was able to push my receiver into thermal shutdown. Yeah; it needs power.


A few comments on the TB -

I use the MCM version of it for most of my subs. I haven't found another driver like it, particularly at it's cost. It's NOT well suited to sealed boxes; it really needs a vented box or a horn to shine. I've posted horn designs over at audiogroupforum for it.

You complained that it has "one note bass." There's an easy explanation for what you heard. The low end decays very slowly, because it has a low QTS. For a vented box, this is a GOOD thing. For a sealed box, not so much.

So that's the reason you heard "one note bass." It's not suited for a sealed box AT ALL.
Also, it has high inductance, which rolls off the highs. That's a problem if you're using it as a midrange, but as a sub, it's no big deal.

I just wanted to throw in my .02, because I still believe this is one of the most unique drivers in the market right now. It can hit like a 10 or a 12, but it's just an eight.


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## shinjohn

Patrick Bateman said:


> A few comments on the TB -
> 
> I use the MCM version of it for most of my subs. I haven't found another driver like it, particularly at it's cost. It's NOT well suited to sealed boxes; it really needs a vented box or a horn to shine. I've posted horn designs over at audiogroupforum for it.
> 
> You complained that it has "one note bass." There's an easy explanation for what you heard. The low end decays very slowly, because it has a low QTS. For a vented box, this is a GOOD thing. For a sealed box, not so much.
> 
> So that's the reason you heard "one note bass." It's not suited for a sealed box AT ALL.
> Also, it has high inductance, which rolls off the highs. That's a problem if you're using it as a midrange, but as a sub, it's no big deal.
> 
> I just wanted to throw in my .02, because I still believe this is one of the most unique drivers in the market right now. It can hit like a 10 or a 12, but it's just an eight.


Good points, and great comments. Appreciate your input!

I guess I was a little on the facetious side during the later part of my review too... Writing long papers/reports does that to me. Reading my review back, it did actually crack me up a little!  

In any event, I would say that most drivers are designed with a purpose in mind, and as such, would perform much better when used for their suited application. In this case, this is clearly a subwoofer; it was never designed to be a "mid/bass" in a car or anywhere else, really. I'm sure with the right alignment and application, this driver would be an excellent performer. However, if you're looking for a dedicated mid/bass speaker to put in your car door, I wouldn't recommend this one based on my (limited) experience. 

Keep the great comments coming; it can only better lift up everyone's understanding and knowledge!  (I know I've got ALOT to learn!)


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## bbfoto

Thank you for the Excellent Review! It was a great idea to test these drivers in both home and car environments and I thank you for your foresight in this regard! Will be a great reference and application guide for years to come!

Thanks again!


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## ArcL100

shinojhn=win! 

You're making me want a 3 way setup though >:[

-aaron


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## Rbsarve

Excellent. 

Makes me eagerly await the new Lotus 8 even more.


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## Patrick Bateman

shinjohn said:


> Keep the great comments coming; it can only better lift up everyone's understanding and knowledge!  (I know I've got ALOT to learn!)


Kudos for taking the time to review all of them! I just wanted to defend the TB/MCM, since I think it's quite unique. About the only competition it has it TC Sounds 8" woofer, which is available from soundsplinter.com and TCSounds.

There's a cheap high-excursion seven inch driver that's promising - it's the M165x from Gr-Research. I think I'm going to buy four of these soon.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6386


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## 300Z

Patrick Bateman said:


> Kudos for taking the time to review all of them! I just wanted to defend the TB/MCM, since I think it's quite unique. About the only competition it has it TC Sounds 8" woofer, which is available from soundsplinter.com and TCSounds.
> 
> There's a cheap high-excursion seven inch driver that's promising - it's the M165x from Gr-Research. I think I'm going to buy four of these soon.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6386


That driver has already been tested.


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## raamaudio

I ran the Rainbow Ref mids and tweeters in my Tacoma, ID DAC, ID crossover and EQ's, I preferred them active over the big passive crossover they came with. I do know how good they are I was always blown away by the midrange out of such a large driver(I almost went with the 4.5 for a change to go with the below dual midbasses in the doors I was changing to next)

I also had two pairs of the 6.5 midbasses, as above, was going to use them in the doors with the Ref set or with the 4.5 midrange/tweet combo.

------------

To this day I have still never heard a car audio or home speaker setup I liked better with the exception of Doc Edgar's Titans.

Rick


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## shinjohn

raamaudio said:


> I ran the Rainbow Ref mids and tweeters in my Tacoma, ID DAC, ID crossover and EQ's, I preferred them active over the big passive crossover they came with. I do know how good they are I was always blown away by the midrange out of such a large driver(I almost went with the 4.5 for a change to go with the below dual midbasses in the doors I was changing to next)
> 
> I also had two pairs of the 6.5 midbasses, as above, was going to use them in the doors with the Ref set or with the 4.5 midrange/tweet combo.
> 
> ------------
> 
> To this day I have still never heard a car audio or home speaker setup I liked better with the exception of Doc Edgar's Titans.
> 
> Rick


Rick, seen the article on your '96 Tacoma. Impressive work there!!! I can't knock Rainbow gear: very good if you can afford it!


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## raamaudio

Thanks buddy, the truck was not really done when photographed but then again, it never really was completed with any of the various systems I ran

I just wish more could of heard it, everyone that did loved it and I had a blast sharing the fun

When I bought them I lost allot of weight, could not afford food for some time, lol!

True story as well

Rick


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## deckAudio

glad to see you post Rick! how's it going? I owe you a call soon!


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## raamaudio

Been pretty dang busy for months on end, unbelievable growth in the business, try to fit some family time in and a bit of play time as well but then I end up working to late allot.

Life is good though, have a major revision of our website being built to ease my workload, costing a bundle but will be worth it so I can have more time hanging out with the cool people I love!!

Rick


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## l0w.r1d3r

Sorry to dig this up, but I'm currently searching for a good midbass driver to use in a 3 way front speaker system, that has a good performance between 50 and 350Hz. I'd like to use these Peerless SLS 8", but my car doors don't allow it (at least, without major mods)...  
I wonder if anyone knows anything about the Peerless SLS 6.5" (model 830946). Given the shape of this speaker, they're almost a perfect fit in my doors! Are they a good choice for what I need?


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## jaypine

Am I reading the frequency response wrong? It looks like the Dayton has better low frequency response than the Peerless.


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## shinjohn

jaypine said:


> Am I reading the frequency response wrong? It looks like the Dayton has better low frequency response than the Peerless.


Looks like you're reading them wrong. If you're looking specifically at the modeled response curves, take the Peerless curve and shift it up so that the "flat" part of the curves line up (compensate for the difference in driver efficiency). You'll see the Dayton rolls off faster on the low end.

Also take a look at the links in the first post; npdang posted actual measured response curves....


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## captainobvious

I stil go back to this review for reference. Exceptional job Shinjohn.


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## shinjohn

captainobvious said:


> I stil go back to this review for reference. Exceptional job Shinjohn.


Glad it was of help, and also glad to see you went with the SLSs. I don't think you'll be disappointed. Let us know how they work out.

And yes, I still have a pair of these sitting in my garage.... They would be in the doors of my car if I had the time and inclination to rebuild my door panels for them....


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## captainobvious

shinjohn said:


> Glad it was of help, and also glad to see you went with the SLSs. I don't think you'll be disappointed. Let us know how they work out.
> 
> And yes, I still have a pair of these sitting in my garage.... They would be in the doors of my car if I had the time and inclination to rebuild my door panels for them....


Get them thangs built 

And I will certainly update with a review once they are installed and broken in.


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## AAAAAAA

There is also an SLS 10inch version. It has similar QTS, I wonder if it would be just as good (or better isnce it is biger). Biger is always better, it would seem.


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## fahrfrompuken

So what driver would you recommend using with my Morel Supremo Piccolos? I need an 8 that will be flat up to around 2kHz since that is where I have the tweeters crossed over.

The fronts in the Camry are quite large and factory use 6x9s and I can even build a very deep mounting plate so depth is not an issue for me. I even thought that a shallow 10 might even work to keep up with those awesome Morel tweets.

Any advice guys?


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## elparner

fahrfrompuken said:


> So what driver would you recommend using with my Morel Supremo Piccolos? I need an 8 that will be flat up to around 2kHz since that is where I have the tweeters crossed over.
> 
> The fronts in the Camry are quite large and factory use 6x9s and I can even build a very deep mounting plate so depth is not an issue for me. I even thought that a shallow 10 might even work to keep up with those awesome Morel tweets.
> 
> Any advice guys?


why not start a new thread?


you are looking for something from 8 - 10, you have supremo piccolo, why don't you try supremo 9"


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## WLDock

fahrfrompuken said:


> So what driver would you recommend using with my Morel Supremo Piccolos? I need an 8 that will be flat up to around 2kHz since that is where I have the tweeters crossed over.
> 
> The fronts in the Camry are quite large and factory use 6x9s and I can even build a very deep mounting plate so depth is not an issue for me. I even thought that a shallow 10 might even work to keep up with those awesome Morel tweets.
> 
> Any advice guys?


A little weird bumping up this 3 year old review to ask another one of several _*"WHAT 8" SHOULD I USE?" *_"question. I guess you have been searching? If so, I am sure you came across the numerous posts about speaker beaming, and larger drivers like 8's and 10's tend to beam at a lower frequency. So, trying to mate 8's in the doors(off axis) with tweets may be a challenge.
DIYMA.com - Search Results

If a 6.5" is not working for you then maybe try to seal them in a small enclosure? or go with a capable 7" in a small sealed enclosure?
DIYCable.com : Intro » Home » Exodus Subwoofers »



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ^^^Kinda jerky, but true.
> 
> This on and off axis thing is about as misunderstood as any audio topic (besides the high-end wire BS). I'm posting this polar graph again--maybe I should just add it as my signature.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The top graph is the polar response to which Mark is referring. It shows output level at various angles off axis for a few frequencies. Beaming at high frequencies is apparent, but this idea that you can use a speaker in a car in a range where it beams effectively is BS, unless you're building a system in a school bus. This is for an 8" woofer, but essentially the same pattern exists for all round drivers. For a smaller driver, the frequency where dispersion begins to narrow would be higher. In order to use a simple round speaker for pattern control, this 8" would have to be high-passed at about 1k. So, it's a really inefficient 8" tweeter that doesn't play high frequencies very well. Perfect.
> 
> 
> The second graph is the same speaker plotted as a frequency response graph measured at various angles off axis.
> 
> It's pretty esay to surmise that used in a range where the 8" is designed to operate most efficiently (below 1k), the radiation (dispersion) is pretty uniform into most forward angles. That means that no matter which way you point the speaker, the response is "on axis", but there will be a little bit of attenuation at high frequencies. So, if I point the speaker up at the windshield, I can mount it in the dash (so long as there's room) in a way that looks nice and I can put a tweeter next to it. There's going to be a giant collection of comb filters because there will be a reflection at all the forward angles off of the *slanted* windshield. There's no way to control this other than to use the entire windshield as the mouth of a horn, but trying to build that as more than a big crapshoot is too much work for relatively little benefit and the big horn will have its own share of frequency response problems. The good news is that the combination of the combs is mostly hard to hear and you can fix it adequately with a couple of low-Q filters. MS-8 will do this for you.
> 
> Here's the polar response of a 1.5" tweeter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's pretty easy to see that the dispersion is wide for most of the useable range except at the very highest frequencies.
> 
> *The graph below is what happens if I use a big mid and a little tweeter. The black curve is off axis and the red curve is on axis. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since our speaker (no matter whether it's a center channel or mounted in the door or kick panel) will radiate much of its response uniformly into most forward angles, we'll hear the on-axis and off axis responses combined. The off axis response will be reflected off of nearby surfaces and the on-axis response won't. If you mount the speaker off axis, then the off axis response will have a direct path to your ears and the on axis response will be reflected. In any case, you'll hear the combination and the combination of the two graphs leaves a hole at the crossover point. Pattern control is out the window because of all the boundaries--those adjacent to the speaker, those adjacent to your ears (which will reflect the same response that your ears hear) and all of those in between.
> 
> For the center channel pointed at the windshield,there's going to be a hole, but the windshield is relatively flat and will reflect whatever is pointed at it in a pretty uniform way. If on-axis response of the speaker is similar to the off axis response of the speaker, then the reflection will be similar to the response you hear directly from the speaker. Since the arrival times will be close enough that you won't hear them as separate events, the _apparent_ source will be in between the source and the reflection, whicis higher than the dash and raises the stage. This will provide a nice, big center image.
> 
> Of course, you'll have to deal with the suckout, but that will happen no matter whether you mount the speaker on or off axis. That's what EQ is for and a low Q suckout is easier to fix than a high-Q suckout. You can't EQ the on-axis and off axis responses separately.
> 
> The moral of the story here is that if you're not building some big-ass horn, using waveguides of some sort, using carefully arranged driver arrays and serious DSP or using 15" drivers as midrange and 8" drivers as tweeters, there's no effective pattern control in cars and you're better off using speakers where they're intended to be used (within their piston range). No matter what you think is happening or what some IASCA mofo wants to pitch in the interest of additional complexity for a few thousand more "upgrade points" or to sell some BS speaker, speakers aren't flashlights, they're floodlights.
> 
> The benefit of the "wideband" 2" tweeter is that it can be crossed low enough to match the woofer at a frequency where the woofer's dispersion is wide (low directivity). However, dispersion fro the 2" is bound by the same law as all other speakers (no matter the cone material or the marketing spin), so the same thing I've illustrated here with the 8" holds for the 2", but at much higher frequencies. There isn't a lot going on at 15k, so it probably doesn't matter.
> 
> The simplest and best sounding system is a 3-way (with a 3" mid) mounted in the door and a center channel pointed at the dash, IMO.[/


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## req

good thread to bump though. but an old one too.


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## imickey503

One of the BEST threads I have seen on DIYMA. WOW! I know old thread, but still in 2018, they are till selling some of these drivers. AMAZING how well they have held up over the years. 

THanks to DIYMA and so many others.. Threads like these have really went the distance of what the hobby is all about. Again, thank you!


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## truckerfte

Dude, are you just trying to get enough posts to sell ****?


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