# What's the best DSP (for the money)?



## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

I know it's a broad question without putting a dollar figure on it, but still I'm wondering what general opinions are. Thanks!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

the answer is subjective.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

I realize that, and you're right of course. What about general quality of the more popular brands. I'm thinking Audison, AudioControl, Helix, Zapco.


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

Budget + installer competence & experience w/ the said DSP is paramount. If your installer recommends Zapco go with that & buy the best Zapco DSP you can budget for even if you have to wait a little longer. If they rec Helix go w helix etc... If you are the installer download the manuals & SW & read up. 

Stay away from Hertz H8 DSP unless you like accented high end, random Click noises, unexplainable distortion & alt noise/ engine feedback & a poorly worded manual that is confusing. I troubleshot that unit til I was blue in the face. Helix has 0 of the issues that the Hertz did using same install spot, same ground, wiring, RCA’s etc. 

The Zapco Z8 IV II sounded more realistic and accurate vs the hertz but my Z8 IV II unit, one of the first installed, ( could have been installer error ) had some weird random stuff that would happen that could not be sorted. Sounded amazing compared to hertz. 

Just got a Helix DSP.3 that I installed. I had very little issues installing & setting up a basic tune for playback. Sounds as good or better than the Zapco with a full tune b/c the Zapco had no output ( using OEM source & Iphone ). The helix is more present in the 1000 Hz & up vs the Zapco, but that maybe due to not having a full tune yet. 

The helix sounds amazing with just crossovers & TA feeding my Zapco AP which feeds my Audiofrog GB60 / GB15 2 way. The helix DSP3 has 6V outputs so my amps run cooler, less hard than before with a skimp 3-3.5V max from the Zapco & Hertz.

The Z8 IV II has a nice included Rem control. The upgraded one is awesome. The Z8 IV II has built in Bluetooth streaming & a new IPhone remote control. Zapco does have a phone app for tuning which is cool. The helix director is awesome & easy to program to your likes via the menus.

I wish I would have listened to everyone who told me to go Helix DSP from the start! Setup is easy as well. The DSP.3 runs 64 bit SW, up to 96Khz sampling, 6V output, Built in limiter for Clipping prevention w/ digital sources.

Hope this helps


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

The Italian said:


> I realize that, and you're right of course. What about general quality of the more popular brands. I'm thinking Audison, AudioControl, Helix, Zapco.


Two of those are pure trash. One is possibly ok but I know has its bugs, and the other is the most solid in the car audio market but isn't the cheapest. 

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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ChaseUTB said:


> The helix DSP3 has 6V outputs so my amps run cooler, less hard than before with a skimp 3-3.5V max from the Zapco & Hertz.


This is not how things work. I think you need to look into how gain and gain structure works.

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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

The Italian said:


> I know it's a broad question without putting a dollar figure on it, but still I'm wondering what general opinions are. Thanks!


Put the dollar figure on it.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Mini dsp is solid too


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## Ali-323i (Oct 4, 2019)

If you’re focused on the budget/value side, the Dayton is prob the best bang for buck. 

No it won’t compare to higher end models like Helix, but at $150, it’s a fraction of the cost. 

I guess it depends on your goals and objectives. If budget oriented, my vote is Dayton. If quality/performance oriented (and don’t mind spending a reasonable premium), likely the Helix, though I don’t have personal experience with the higher end spectrum. 

Good luck!

Edit: I reread the OP and looks like it’s more about best and less about bang for buck... so I suppose you can ignore the whole post! Lol

Leaving it in case other readers are looking for a budget option.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I have only tried two DSPs - a Rockford DSR-1 and a Helix DSP.3. I absolutely love the DSP.3. To me, the Helix software is what really makes it stand out above others. Their software is very "logical" and extremely powerful, with features that others just don't have.

The only other DSP I might consider would be the MiniDSP 8x12 DiracLive DSP. That is a very unique DSP in that it has DiracLive auto-tuning capabilities and uses FIR filters instead of IIR filters. My understanding is that FIR filters are more powerful and _may_ give better results over IIR filters. Plus the whole DiracLive auto-tuning is a huge benefit for those that don't want to get too involved with the tuning process, but still want to end up with great results.

I do also have a Dayton DSP-408, but have never used in in-car - but have read about some short-comings of the unit and it's not as powerful as something like the Helix DSP.3.

To me, a DSP is a hugely important part of a modern system and is not an area to be "skimped" on. I tried that once already with the RF DSR-1 and I just think that you are much better off getting a great DSP from the start (the DSR-1 is another "budget" DSP that is powerful, but has plenty of "cons" that you learn of as you start using it). 

Just my two cents.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Trosky is spot on. I have a helix because of the software is hard to deal with any other jackwagon software after that, but... Dirac Live sure is tempting.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

jtrosky said:


> The only other DSP I might consider would be the MiniDSP 8x12 DiracLive DSP. That is a very unique DSP in that it has DiracLive auto-tuning capabilities and uses FIR filters instead of IIR filters. My understanding is that FIR filters are more powerful and _may_ give better results over IIR filters. Plus the whole DiracLive auto-tuning is a huge benefit for those that don't want to get too involved with the tuning process, but still want to end up with great results.
> 
> Just my two cents.


I have always wanted to try an MS8 but at this point with the age and having to buy used, I think the minidsp with diraclive is going to be my best bet with auto-tuning.


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## Petererc (Dec 28, 2016)

For me it was the Mosconi 6to8v8. Picked one up used with amas/spdif for a little more than a new Dayton. That’s the best bang for my buck. It’s the only DSP I have used so it is all I know. Does everything that I need it to, whether the interface isnt as good as others I don’t give a FF. I am not about to drop ton of money (to me) on a new DSP to find out when the one I have works just fine


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Some really great responses fellas, thanks! I am in the process of possibly switching installers so talking with them is probably sound advice. I have also changed the AMP that I'm using. 

There was a lot of shorthand in the recommendations you guys made. DSP's are something that only became wildly popular and readily available after I had already taken a step back from this field. If it wouldn't be too much trouble, I would ask if you could list the actual manufacturer and model number of the units that you mentioned. If it's too much of a pain, I understand. 

I'm driving down to meet with Steve Cook this week but I don't even know what brands he sells in his shop. Honestly, the websites for retailers in car audio are just terrible. Actually his is better than many others but I will still need to drive a few hours to get anywhere. 

Thanks again!


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Just a quick example of why I asked for clarification. Mini DSP was mentioned, which I believe is a "brand" (could be wrong). But doesn't Helix offer a MINI that is a "model" name?


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Oh, one more thing. The reason I didn't put a dollar figure on it is that since I was switching AMPS, my entire system design was changing. It looks like the layout will be much simpler and I'm not sure that I will need the seemingly endless complications and versatility offered by so many of these units.


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

I’ve used the AudioControl D-4.800 and it’s nice but the software was very buggy for me and made me want to tear my hair out multiple times with random changes of my EQ settings and randomly losing my EQ settings. Once set, and after some hair loss, it was fine however ;-)

I now have the helix p six and I like it a lot more. Much more stable, and it has features like relative EQ adjustment which is very nice to have when dialing in your tune. (this feature allows you to link output channels where you can make an adjustment on one channel and not throw off the relative balance of everything - so you don’t mess up your center image for example).


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Thanks! I've been in touch with the folks at Audiotec Fischer and they have been very helpful. I am impressed by the company as a whole.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

In my rather uneducated opinion I'd think you'd want a DSP that has allpass filters and phase shifting and an installer who agrees.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Meeting with installer in a couple of days, so we'll see what his thoughts are. I would rather he work with equipment he's familiar with and has confidence in but at the end of the day, it's my car and my money. I'm sure we can find common ground, especially after all the good things I've heard about him.


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

Jroo said:


> I have always wanted to try an MS8 but at this point with the age and having to buy used, I think the minidsp with diraclive is going to be my best bet with auto-tuning.


I had an MS8, was very happy with it great DSP, but IMO the Dirac enabled 8x12 is much better. Of course, I'd expect it to be though, it's 10+ years newer. You can't go wrong with either really, but like you wrote, the only MS8 you're buying now is used and several years old.

Agree with the poster above who said the Helix software is excellent. I had a Helix before the MiniDSP I have now and the software was a joy to use. The MiniDSP software is also easy to use, but the Helix is, again IMO, a step above.

I've used a bunch over the years, Alpine, Audison BitOne.1, MS8, Helix and MiniDSP. Never had a problem with any of them and been happy with the results from all of them.

The MiniDSP 8x12DL is likely to remain for a good while though, taking 10 minutes to tune and the results be outstanding (have used it in 2 vehicles now) vs hours of tweaking manually are priceless to me.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Top notch post


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Mauian said:


> I’ve used the AudioControl D-4.800 and it’s nice but the software was very buggy for me and made me want to tear my hair out multiple times with random changes of my EQ settings and randomly losing my EQ settings. Once set, and after some hair loss, it was fine however ;-)
> 
> I now have the helix p six and I like it a lot more. Much more stable, and it has features like relative EQ adjustment which is very nice to have when dialing in your tune. (this feature allows you to link output channels where you can make an adjustment on one channel and not throw off the relative balance of everything - so you don’t mess up your center image for example).
> 
> ...


Hair is at a premium at this point in my life, so that's a solid argument for the Helix... 😂😂😂


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> the answer is subjective.



not really, the best is the one you can afford and have it installed/tuned properly, you can spend $6500 on a bra unit but if it isn't installed/tuned correctly its a paper weight, ask kountz


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Okay, there are a lot of models here. To simplify it a bit, let me ask the following. 

Are the MiniDSP C-DSP 8x12 and the Helix DSP.3 a good match up? In other words, is it a fair head to head comparison? I'm leaving the Dirac Live upgrade off the table because it puts a lot of distance between them in terms of price.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

The Italian said:


> ...
> There was a lot of shorthand in the recommendations you guys made. DSP's are something that only became wildly popular and readily available after I had already taken a step back from this field. If it wouldn't be too much trouble, I would ask if you could list the actual manufacturer and model number of the units that you mentioned. If it's too much of a pain, I understand.
> ...


Er...no.

You really need to do some serious looking yourself if you want to get you head around it.

Or 

You just want to find a shop and pay them to put in Y.


All you generally get is a person that likes sushi saying that sushi is the best. And the same scheme from the person that prefers Pasta. 
At least a list of ones that are more like a MiniDSP, and the others would be a good place to start.
Otherwise this is a bit like which speaker is the best.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Porsche said:


> not really, the best is the one you can afford and have it installed/tuned properly, you can spend $6500 on a bra unit but if it isn't installed/tuned correctly its a paper weight, ask kountz


You know what I mean. As soon as you say "for the money", there is no real answer. Now if you say regardless of price, objectively the Helix Ultra and Brax are the best, no doubt in my mind. 

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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

The Italian said:


> ... I'm leaving the Dirac Live upgrade off the table because it puts a lot of distance between them in terms of price.


Do you even know what it does, and what you get for the price?


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> Two of those are pure trash. One is possibly ok but I know has its bugs, and the other is the most solid in the car audio market but isn't the cheapest.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


For us folks with not as extensive product knowledge, could you expound on your statement? Or at least tell us which two you think are trash.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Def!ant said:


> For us folks with not as extensive product knowledge, could you expound on your statement. Or at least tell us which two you think are trash?


It maybe a good homework problem?


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

Holmz said:


> It maybe a good homework problem?


Umm....hwhat?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Def!ant said:


> Umm....hwhat?


It is usually better to take a stab at what one thinks that the answers are, and why, than to just get spoonfed the answers.
Also if the spoonfeeding is in error, one may actually catch it if they have done their homework.


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

Holmz said:


> It is usually better to take a stab at what one thinks that the answers are, and why, than to just get spoonfed the answers.
> Also if the spoonfeeding is in error, one may actually catch it if they have done their homework.


Oh for god's sake. Stop responding with this kind of nonsense.


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

Holmz said:


> It is usually better to take a stab at what one thinks that the answers are, and why, than to just get spoonfed the answers.
> Also if the spoonfeeding is in error, one may actually catch it if they have done their homework.


In what way am I taking a stab? I think he'd admit his response was kind of vague. I personally have zero experience with all 4 DSP mentioned. I was simply asking if he could give insight into his opinions. I don't know why I would spend hours doing "homework", researching SkizeR's opinions, when I can hear it directly from him in a fraction of the time.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

Since I have all the money in the world and you don't get it by being scared or frivolous I'll chime in. Since the op doesn't have experience with a DSP and doesn't know how to tune the Mini with Dirac is the best he can buy for his money.

If you want the best money can buy for someone else to tune Helix.

Of course that's filled with sarcasm but the suggestions are real.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Def!ant said:


> In what way am I taking a stab? I
> ...
> ...SkizeR's opinions, when I can hear it directly from him in a fraction of the time.


1) You are not taking a stab at.

2) while Skiezr is well respected, it is possible that he could be wrong.
Or
A question like, "is it because...X", then allows for some expansion of the dialogue.

I assume:
"1) it is a well made DSP.
2) it is common so it is easy to find a tuner for it."

(I might be wrong, but at least I took a stab at it, and now Skiezr can tell me I am partially right, wrong, etc.)


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Patriot83 said:


> Oh for god's sake. Stop responding with this kind of nonsense.


Amen


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## twinrink (Dec 31, 2017)

I did try them almost all.
The best I used is Bewith AZ1 with Fir filters and 300db slopes.
Others are just second league...


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## DiamondFanatic (Dec 26, 2007)

Wait, so it’s not the Bit One?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Holmz said:


> 2) while Skiezr is well respected, it is possible that he could be wrong.


I'm never wrong. Never. Not ever. Not even one time. Well, except for that one time..


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Holmz said:


> Do you even know what it does, and what you get for the price?


I readily admitted that DSP's are new for me. I worked with car audio before they were so widely used.

As for knowing what it does, I have an idea but it is from the perspective of a novice. I asked a simple question; one that I think is legitimate. It was an attempt to compare two similarly priced products. Throwing the Dirac Live upgrade into the mix defeats the purpose of a fair comparison.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

I think it's worth mentioning that you are going with an installer (I think?). You're probably going to get a lot more bang for your buck using the stuff they already consistently get great results with and can cost effectively source. Something something the archer.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

opekone said:


> I think it's worth mentioning that you are going with an installer (I think?). You're probably going to get a lot more bang for your buck using the stuff they already consistently get great results with and can cost effectively source. Something something the archer.


Yes, that is correct. I mentioned earlier that I'm meeting with Steve Cook this week.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

The Italian said:


> I readily admitted that DSP's are new for me. I worked with car audio before they were so widely used.
> ...


I woułd argue that knowing when one may want one unit over another I suspect handy to have before spending money.
There is a lot that can be going on, and it is not as simple as a Dayton doing everything that some other unit does.
Yeah the Dayton may do the 80% need, but if you need the other 10-20% then it would fall short.




The Italian said:


> ...
> As for knowing what it does, I have an idea but it is from the perspective of a novice. I asked a simple question; one that I think is legitimate. It was an attempt to compare two similarly priced products. Throwing the Dirac Live upgrade into the mix defeats the purpose of a fair comparison.


My point is that it may not be that simple... but if cost is the main driver, then that is good to work with, and makes life easier.
The acknowledgement that having Dirac makes it unfair comparison shows you know it is somehow doing something different which makes it unfair to compair to units that cannot do it.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Def!ant said:


> For us folks with not as extensive product knowledge, could you expound on your statement? Or at least tell us which two you think are trash.


The audison bit one should have been discontinued years ago. Yet, the processor that came out in like 2007 is still being sold for $800. It is buggy, pain in the ass to use if you are after a high level of sound quality (here's where the typical shop owners who are set it and forget it types say "its fine to use", except all they do is set crossovers and half assed delays lol), and limited. The Audiocontrol is almost like the 2018 version of the bit one. Buggy as all hell upon release, and still buggy as all hell to this day. I don't think I've ever been more frustrated tuning than with an Audiocontrol DSP. Rockford, Zapco (older models) and Audison are up there though. Zapco, i was helping beta test the new dsp software before distribution was pulled from a-trend. I haven't used them since, but at the time (almost complete), it was a disaster. The old models were a disaster as well. No idea how they fair these days.

So heres my list of most the processors that i have used, ranked from first to last in terms of what i would prefer to use..

1) Audiotec Fischer (Helix/Match/Brax) - These are all i use at my shop unless a customer requests otherwise. I haven't sold a DSP that wasn't Helix since I've opened since im well versed enough in many DSP's to show the pros and cons of each. In my experience, there is nothing better. The features, flexibility, and forward-thinking these guys use when designing them is unmatched. I could write an essay about why they are top dog, but I'm not going to bother. If there is something specific needed for your install and you want to know if helix has a better solution that anyone else, just ask. That's the easiest way to go about dissecting their capabilities to be honest. What partially sets them apart is the software. Plot twist, the guy who does all of their software work isn't a software engineer. He's an audio engineer who self-taught himself code(?)/software. The only thing out there that has SOME sort of leg up on these is the minidsp with dirac, which tbh, lacks so much elsewhere, and from what I'm hearing from people i trust, its not as good as the typical forum-goers make it out to be. This might even be why Audiotec Fischer passed on implementing it in favor of something else recently 
Oh, and they're not even the most expensive in their respective class 

2) Arc Audio PS8/pro and Mosconi - Im more familiar with the Mosconi software, but i know the Arc is more flexible/able. Both Softwares arent nearly as polished as the Audiotec Fischer software, but both are still good

These are the only processors i would willingly sell at my shop.. on to the rest

3) JL TWK - Solid hardware, solid company, solid software but with a hiccup.. the software might be solid (as in there are no noticeable bugs), but my god, this thing is almost set up in a way that prevents you from squeezing the most out of your car. This is a good dsp for your typical guy going into a shop for a $4000 and up setup/install or your average hobbyist who doesnt want to fiddle with things once its set up with a basic tune. But if you are looking to learn how to tune and PROGRESS said tuning, this is NOT the processor to choose. Again, solid choice, but only if you arent needing to squeeze the most out of your setup (which is honestly dumb in my opinion, why wouldn't you want the most out of the rest of your gear/install) and don't care to become a great tuner.

4) Pioneer P99RS/Carrozzeria ODR - aside from the fact that its out dated and can only do CD/basic USB, its actually nice to tune with once you get the hang of its interface. I can manage to bang out a SOLID tune on these with a good install in 30 mins or less. But, digging in for that extra "5%" is difficult due to the fact that its just a head unit. These is where something like the Helix sweeps everything else. They truly make doing everything and anything about tuning as easy as possible. Side note: ODR not as easy vs the p99

5) Alpine H800 - Its old and you can tell, but is still solid. Software isn't so intuitive but you cant expect much from it. The one thing it has over every other DSP is a TRUE upmixer. Helix can do center steering and is fully capable of achieving a good 2 seat tune, but not as easily as the Dolby in the H800

6) Minidsp (non-dirac) and Dayton - basic, work, and usually do what they say. Dont expect anything special, don't expect to be able to use them with premium oem systems since they cant handle the higher voltage on the high level inputs. And like the twk, do not expect to become a great tuner on these. Theyre just too basic. Again, good for people who don't really care that much and are using an aftermarket head unit. The mini does offer biquads and rew integration so there's that.


These are the processors i have no qualms with installing or tuning if the customer insists. On to the rest, which i will give a HEAVY warning and no garauntee to customers if they want me to install them..


7) Audison Bit One HD - noisy, so never got to dig into it. We ripped it out due to high noise floor before we could get a feel for it

7b) Audison bit one, 10, 10d, hertz h8, etc... - Ugh.. Just do a search on these pieces and that should give you an idea. Please don't ask me to install or tune these. I probably wont like you if you arent being sarcastic lol

8) Pioneer 80prs - you already know what this thing is and what it does. I haven't been comfortable suggesting these for probably 4 years now. just too basic and clunky and outdated vs a cheaper yet better standalone dsp

9) Rockford 360.3 - **** this thing. seriously. Could have been top dog when it first came out but was such a buggy POS and Rockford stopped supporting it almost instantly.

10) DSR1 - pretty much a smaller/****tier (hardware) 360.3. Would not suggest using. last time i used one myself, nothing but noise, clunky app, etc. no thanks

11) Zapco DC - I loved these things and were my first DSP. I had 14 of these dsp amps at one point. That said, i only loved them because i was ignorant to what else was out there. This is a *PERFECT* example of why you should take strangers on the internet words of advice with a grain of salt. 20 bucks says anyone touting anything other than the 3 mentioned at the top (again, i haven't used the mini with dirac yet, so maybe that too) dont have much experience with anything aside from the one they are talking about, unless said experience is with something even worse. Long story short, stop trusting random people on the internet. Most are very ignorant, just as i was. I myself touted these things as the ****. Turns out they were just ****. aside from them being outdated today, back then they were even a massive pain in the dick. Buggy, hardly connected, noisy, etc..

12) Those PPI/Soundstream ****boxes - Just don't.



I have used many other DSP's, but everything mentioned above i have used at least 4 times except the h800, dsr1, and dayton, so im comfortable giving an opinion on them. The others, using once or twice isn't enough to give an opinion on so i left em out.

Long story short, im not trying to make sales by suggesting Helix. They truly are ahead of the rest, and MOST of the rest cant even come close.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

The Italian said:


> Yes, that is correct. I mentioned earlier that I'm meeting with Steve Cook this week.


Hes going to go with Helix.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

How about the Waveflex or APL units?
Any experience with those?




SkizeR said:


> I'm never wrong. Never. Not ever. Not even one time. Well, except for that one time..


You could have been wrong that time?

I think that there is some value in a student trying to learn something, take the effort to try to explain it to the teacher. As it is a DIY forum, you patience and explanations have been, and continue to be, welcome as a way to get a grasp on some of this stuff.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Holmz said:


> How about the Waveflex or APL units?
> Any experience with those?


Never heard of waveflex, but we have a few APL1's at the shop. I dont really think they should be put into my post above since the APL1 is just a 2 channel FIR processor. Its an addition to another dsp, not a replacement. I was actually going to buy Kevin an APL1012 for his birthday until i looked at the price and my bank account lol. Sorry Kev lol


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

The Italian said:


> Are the MiniDSP C-DSP 8x12 and the Helix DSP.3 a good match up? In other words, is it a fair head to head comparison?


Since no one answered this, they are a pretty fair match up, especially looking at price. The MiniDSP has more inputs, 8, both high level and RCA than the 6 that come on the Helix. Additionally, while the Helix has 8 outputs, the MiniDSP has 12. The Helix also optical in via Toslink, while the MiniDSP has both Toslink and SPDIF. Input sensitivity, both have 2-4V on the RCA input, the high level input the Helix has a wider range (5-11V), MiniDSP has a smaller range, but goes up to 12V (8-12V). Output voltage is the same for both. Sampling rate of the MiniDSP is 192kHz, Helix is 96kHz. 

To get the same number of outputs with the Helix as the MiniDSP, you have to step up to the Helix DSP Ultra, but then you are also stepping up to (I think) about a $1,500 retail price. At that point, for me personally, as much as I agree the Helix is an excellent DSP, I'd take the Mini C-DSP 8x12 with Dirac and pocket about $500+ 

But.... if you only need 8 channels, then either will work just fine.If you are paying someone, then knowing whether to tune it yourself or not becomes somewhat of a moot point. It may just come down to what that shop suggests you use. Either way, it's worth teaching yourself a little about how to tune so that you can tweak things to your personal preference, rather than what a shop may think sounds right. Remember, it's your vehicle this will be going in, if you don't like how a shop tunes it (even though it may technically be right) you'll be the one listening to music on it so may want to tweak things a little without screwing everything up. 

Ultimately, what I am saying is that for $500, if you don't need more than 8 outputs, you can't go wrong with either option.


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

SkizeR said:


> This is not how things work. I think you need to look into how gain and gain structure works.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


You always have to try to correct me. You are cool in my books not sure why you do this on this forum to lots of posters, chill out w/ the superiority complex. 

When I measured the output voltage on my RCA with different frequencies my multimeter reads 5.95 V with the Helix At 0 playing a O dB sine wave. I have more ac voltage output as well with a higher input sensitivity, meaning the helix is outputting higher rca ac voltage into my amp than the previous DSP. My amp “ gains “ were further clockwise say 1 o clock, now they are at 9 o clock& the out put is cleaner and louder now. I get more volume with amp gains set lower. I used -5db tones.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

naiku said:


> Since no one answered this, they are a pretty fair match up, especially looking at price. The MiniDSP has more inputs, 8, both high level and RCA than the 6 that come on the Helix. Additionally, while the Helix has 8 outputs, the MiniDSP has 12. The Helix also optical in via Toslink, while the MiniDSP has both Toslink and SPDIF. Input sensitivity, both have 2-4V on the RCA input, the high level input the Helix has a wider range (5-11V), MiniDSP has a smaller range, but goes up to 12V (8-12V). Output voltage is the same for both. Sampling rate of the MiniDSP is 192kHz, Helix is 96kHz.
> 
> To get the same number of outputs with the Helix as the MiniDSP, you have to step up to the Helix DSP Ultra, but then you are also stepping up to (I think) about a $1,500 retail price. At that point, for me personally, as much as I agree the Helix is an excellent DSP, I'd take the Mini C-DSP 8x12 with Dirac and pocket about $500+
> 
> ...


Eloquent, thoughtful response my friend. I very much appreciate that! I have been putting some effort into gaining a better understanding the topic of signal processing as a whole. There was a time when none of this was possible; the technical advancements have changed the field and opened up such great possibilities.

I certainly will learn more about it and my point is this; at least in response to a couple of earlier entries. As things stand today, I need enough information to make a good purchasing decision. A couple of you guys have already suggested models that seem excellent. Once I buy my own DSP, I will work with my installer as well as do some independent research to gain a deeper understanding of that specific model. I agree with you about knowing enough to make changes in the future. 

Thanks again!


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

ChaseUTB said:


> You always have to try to correct me. You are cool in my books not sure why you do this on this forum to lots of posters, chill out w/ the superiority complex.
> 
> When I measured the output voltage on my RCA with different frequencies my multimeter reads 5.95 V with the Helix At 0 playing a O dB sine wave. I have more ac voltage output as well with a higher input sensitivity, meaning the helix is outputting higher rca ac voltage into my amp than the previous DSP. My amp “ gains “ were further clockwise say 1 o clock, now they are at 9 o clock& the out put is cleaner and louder now. I get more volume with amp gains set lower. I used -5db tones.


Fellas, I'm not trying to get in the middle of this but I do want to say that I got something out of the responses you have both posted. 

@SkizeR is a pro and as such, his comments carry a certain weight, as they should. But since I'm the OP, I thought I'd let you know that you've both been helpful. Perhaps that doesn't mean much, but I would hate for this thread to be the catalyst for friction. 

Thanks again gents!


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> The audison bit one should have been discontinued years ago. Yet, the processor that came out in like 2007 is still being sold for $800. It is buggy, pain in the ass to use if you are after a high level of sound quality (here's where the typical shop owners who are set it and forget it types say "its fine to use", except all they do is set crossovers and half assed delays lol), and limited. The Audiocontrol is almost like the 2018 version of the bit one. Buggy as all hell upon release, and still buggy as all hell to this day. I don't think I've ever been more frustrated tuning than with an Audiocontrol DSP. Rockford, Zapco (older models) and Audison are up there though. Zapco, i was helping beta test the new dsp software before distribution was pulled from a-trend. I haven't used them since, but at the time (almost complete), it was a disaster. The old models were a disaster as well. No idea how they fair these days.
> 
> So heres my list of most the processors that i have used, ranked from first to last in terms of what i would prefer to use..
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to write this! I hadn't thanked you yet because I'm still trying to digest everything contained. I'm sure that I will come back to this post many times in the future. There are things that I probably won't benefit from until I run across certain scenarios or at least until my knowledge increases enough.


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

Def!ant said:


> For us folks with not as extensive product knowledge, could you expound on your statement? Or at least tell us which two you think are trash.


You are asking a helix dealer which DSP he thinks is best  Regardless SkizeR is very very knowledgeable Regarding the Helix DSP & SW & a great installer/ fabricator as well. SkizeR has some great vids on YouTube, search “ Apicella Auto Sound “ 

I provided my experience with multiple units and I do not sell any brands I mentioned. Two of my units were installed by professional installers, the last by me. I recommend Helix DSP.3 it has to many features to list lol. It is a little more expensive than the middle tier units like Zapco Z8 IV II ( I recommend as well ) units because if you want Bluetooth or USB audio you have to buy extension cards. Plus you will want the Director remote which controls the system which is additional cost.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Holmz said:


> Er...no.
> 
> You really need to do some serious looking yourself if you want to get you head around it.
> 
> ...


While I appreciate your feedback, it's a bit presumptuous to assume that I haven't been doing some independent research. It's very difficult to research something that has been abbreviated or a model referred to by slang. A simple manufacturer & model was all I was asking about. That makes independent research much easier which leads to less dumb questions. 

But this is a community that exists, in no small part, for members to share with each other. I see nothing wrong with asking. As for your analogy, I have to disagree. It's not sushi versus pasta but rather who makes the best of each. Still, I value your opinion and thank you for participating!


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

SkizeR said:


> So heres my list of most the processors that i have used, ranked from first to last in terms of what i would prefer to use..
> 
> 1) Audiotec Fischer (Helix/Match/Brax) - These are all i use at my shop unless a customer requests otherwise. I haven't sold a DSP that wasn't Helix since I've opened since im well versed enough in many DSP's to show the pros and cons of each. In my experience, there is nothing better. The features, flexibility, and forward-thinking these guys use when designing them is unmatched. I could write an essay about why they are top dog, but I'm not going to bother. If there is something specific needed for your install and you want to know if helix has a better solution that anyone else, just ask. That's the easiest way to go about dissecting their capabilities to be honest. What partially sets them apart is the software. Plot twist, the guy who does all of their software work isn't a software engineer. He's an audio engineer who self-taught himself code(?)/software. The only thing out there that has SOME sort of leg up on these is the minidsp with dirac, which tbh, lacks so much elsewhere, and from what I'm hearing from people i trust, its not as good as the typical forum-goers make it out to be. This might even be why Audiotec Fischer passed on implementing it in favor of something else recently
> Oh, and they're not even the most expensive in their respective class
> ...


This post is awesome Info! Wow !!!


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

ChaseUTB said:


> This post is awesome Info! Wow !!!


Agreed. Thanks for sharing!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

@SkizeR, I finally found this entry:

_"Alpine H800 - Its old and you can tell, but is still solid. Software isn't so intuitive but you cant expect much from it. The one thing it has over every other DSP is a TRUE upmixer. Helix can do center steering and is fully capable of achieving a good 2 seat tune, but not as easily as the Dolby in the H800"_

So I have been reading about "upmixer" and I guess I should be taking it into account. Again being old-school, I planned to ignore the center channel altogether. However, my car has "Centerpoint" or whatever Bose calls it so I'm wondering if I should shift my approach? 

The current way that feature works is kind of annoying. I mean, it shifts the soundstage vertically (maybe not a great description) but the results are mixed. I've only been able to attribute that to the individual tracks and how they were recorded or mixed. 

Thoughts?


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

If you are not an expert tuner, but you want expert results in one shot, the MiniDSP w/Dirac. If you are an expert tuner and like to spend a lot of time time tweaking your tune to perfecting, OR are planning on having an expert tune for you and they prefer the Helix, then the Helix.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DavidRam said:


> If you are not an expert tuner, but you want expert results in one shot, the MiniDSP w/Dirac. If you are an expert tuner and like to spend a lot of time time tweaking your tune to perfecting, OR are planning on having an expert tune for you and they prefer the Helix, then the Helix.


Good luck using one of these to properly integrate into something like the Bose Centerpoint like mentioned above. For most of you guys, the mini is fine since you are using an aftermarket source. In my world, the minidsp won't work properly on probably 35% of the jobs we do.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

The Italian said:


> [However, my car has "Centerpoint" or whatever Bose calls it so I'm wondering if I should shift my approach?


This might be a useful question, sorry if you already posted it, but what vehicle is this going into? Going to guess that you will be retaining the factory head unit, so maybe that will have some bearing. I had to keep the factory head unit in my Volvo, but was able to eliminate the factory amplifier using a Helix SDMI25 which then gave me optical into the MiniDSP. I did lose the center speaker, but with the DSP it makes no difference as I have a rock solid center image anyway. 

Unless you really want to keep the centerpoint, I would not worry too much about upmixers. Even manually tuning with a Helix before I got my MiniDSP I was able to get a great center image, so you definitely don't really need to worry about incorporating it..... unless, it is required for bluetooth phone calls, navigation or some other function. 


Also, not sure which way you are leaning with regards to a DSP, but Helix will let you download the software and try it in a demo mode, might be worthwhile even just to see some of the tools you would have available. I don't believe you can demo the MiniDSP software, which in many ways is a bit of a shame as it would be nice to try it out as well.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

naiku said:


> This might be a useful question, sorry if you already posted it, but what vehicle is this going into? Going to guess that you will be retaining the factory head unit, so maybe that will have some bearing. I had to keep the factory head unit in my Volvo, but was able to eliminate the factory amplifier using a Helix SDMI25 which then gave me optical into the MiniDSP. I did lose the center speaker, but with the DSP it makes no difference as I have a rock solid center image anyway.
> 
> Unless you really want to keep the centerpoint, I would not worry too much about upmixers. Even manually tuning with a Helix before I got my MiniDSP I was able to get a great center image, so you definitely don't really need to worry about incorporating it..... unless, it is required for bluetooth phone calls, navigation or some other function.
> 
> ...


This is for a Mazda sGT and yes, I'm keeping the head unit. However, one of the guys I trust did a whole analysis on the system and the head unit doesn't do anything to the audio. Everything is processed by the Bose AMP located under the passenger's seat. I refuse to use an LOC and if I only had the option of starting with high signal outs, I would replace the head unit. The long and very involved write-up that he did basically verifies that if you use the inputs into the amp and bypass it altogether, you have clean, unmolested signals to work with. I'm just wondering what impact my old-school approach might have. I've always disregarded center channels but once again, we didn't have any real advanced technology to incorporate it into our systems. I assume that sound engineers try to create the best acoustics possible given the restrictions placed on them by the other design teams. But as I read that sentence back, I realize that I might be giving the whole OEM car audio departments too much credit....lol


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ChaseUTB said:


> You are asking a helix dealer which DSP he thinks is best


Im a dealer for many DSP's. I just use Helix because frankly they are the best. I have dealer access to pretty much any DSP i desire. I desire the Helix, period.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

naiku said:


> Unless you really want to keep the centerpoint, I would not worry too much about upmixers. Even manually tuning with a Helix before I got my MiniDSP I was able to get a great center image, so you definitely don't really need to worry about incorporating it..... unless, it is required for bluetooth phone calls, navigation or some other function.


This is something that hobbyists on the forums and facebook groups tend to forget about. You typically cant retain all of this stuff with cheaper processors. What happens if the cars oem amp puts out 18 volts, has an upmixer, and routes bluetooth and nav prompts in a certain way? i run into this often, but its not a problem for something like the helix, the mosconi, and probably the arc. dayton, mini, etc.. good luck. add in a second external source, the good ones do automatic source switching and level adjustment.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> Im a dealer for many DSP's. I just use Helix because frankly they are the best. I have dealer access to pretty much any DSP i desire. I desire the Helix, period.


I'm pretty sure that Steve will agree with you. They have like four different Helix models in stock so hopefully he and I can develop a good plan. I'm going to send him the three different system diagrams I have so we can cut to the chase when we meet.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

The Italian said:


> I'm pretty sure that Steve will agree with you. They have like four different Helix models in stock so hopefully he and I can develop a good plan. I'm going to send him the three different system diagrams I have so we can cut to the chase when we meet.


trust me on this, just let him direct everything. Do not give him some "but some guy on the forum said i should do this".. frankly, forum guys dont have much clue whats going on outside of their own car. let him do his thing. trust me


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> This is something that hobbyists on the forums and facebook groups tend to forget about. You typically cant retain all of this stuff with cheaper processors. What happens if the cars oem amp puts out 18 volts, has an upmixer, and routes bluetooth and nav prompts in a certain way? i run into this often, but its not a problem for something like the helix, the mosconi, and probably the arc. dayton, mini, etc.. good luck. add in a second external source, the good ones do automatic source switching and level adjustment.


Wrong quote. Guess not, sorry.

"I may not be sophistic enough to understand your post entirely but I can say this. The NAV, voice commands, and other functions seem to be handled pre-amp. The actual audio from all sources CD player, radio, bluetooth, and USB ports, appears to be all handled by the amp alone."


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> trust me on this, just let him direct everything. Do not give him some "but some guy on the forum said i should do this".. frankly, forum guys dont have much clue whats going on outside of their own car. let him do his thing. trust me


Yeah, I agree with you. The only place where I "might" have to deviate is if the equipment is much more expensive buying it through him. I am actually willing to pay a premium for equipment and a good chunk of change for his services; I believe in this strongly. I just don't want to spend an exorbitant amount for an identical unit. In fact, I would rather pay him maybe something like half of what I save on hardware for labor. That way, we both come out ahead. I offered this to another shop a couple of weeks ago.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> Good luck using one of these to properly integrate into something like the Bose Centerpoint like mentioned above. For most of you guys, the mini is fine since you are using an aftermarket source. In my world, the minidsp won't work properly on probably 35% of the jobs we do.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


That leaves 65%...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DavidRam said:


> That leaves 65%...


And an "yeah we can't do your car properly" for the other 35%". I get it, the dirac is a cool new thing that is helpful to those with little tuning experience, but the mini doesn't touch the helix in flexibility 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

ChaseUTB said:


> You are asking a helix dealer which DSP he thinks is best  Regardless SkizeR is very very knowledgeable Regarding the Helix DSP & SW & a great installer/ fabricator as well. SkizeR has some great vids on YouTube, search “ Apicella Auto Sound “
> 
> I provided my experience with multiple units and I do not sell any brands I mentioned. Two of my units were installed by professional installers, the last by me. I recommend Helix DSP.3 it has to many features to list lol. It is a little more expensive than the middle tier units like Zapco Z8 IV II ( I recommend as well ) units because if you want Bluetooth or USB audio you have to buy extension cards. Plus you will want the Director remote which controls the system which is additional cost.


I bookmarked his YT channel. Thanks for the heads-up!


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

SkizeR said:


> Im a dealer for many DSP's. I just use Helix because frankly they are the best. I have dealer access to pretty much any DSP i desire. I desire the Helix, period.


You just wrote in a long post that most DSP are **** and you Only install helix in your shop unless another customer has a different unit.

You are a helix dealer and installer and work hand in hand with Audiotex Fischer. You have 0 videos on any other units & the videos you have posted work with AF US distributor & Tech support.

The only DSP you recommended and had nothing bad to say about was the brand you work with. It’s fine to “ like what you like “ aka what makes you $ but if everyone knows you are a helix dealer they can take your info in with true context. 

Since I have been reading this forum you have been a die hard helix dealer, installer, & you literally said every DSP is **** besides Helix or Mosconi/ Arc but their SW is not advanced & has issues.

I am also interested in how I am wrong measuring the AC voltage from DSP outputs using a DMM. You said that not how it works so please share


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

ChaseUTB said:


> You just wrote in a long post that most DSP are **** and you Only install helix in your shop unless another customer has a different unit.
> 
> You are a helix dealer and installer and work hand in hand with Audiotex Fischer. You have 0 videos on any other units & the videos you have posted work with AF US distributor & Tech support.
> 
> ...


He does sell the units, but to be fair he explained in detail specifically what the units he reccomends do that the others don't. I'm concerned with your aggressive confusion.


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

Unless you are stuck on X speaker and Y amp I agree with SkizeR, let Steve do what he does best. That’s why you are hiring him 

Most of the time dealers can work with you on gear pricing when you are using them for the install. Other times prices are prices & you got to pay to play!

I think my original install was almost 10k. 3500 for install. Equipment alone:

2 JL W7 AE - $1500 + tax
Zapco amps & DSP - $2500
Audiofrog GB 2 way - $1200 + tax 
Soundskins Pro - $300
Wire, Distro, RCA, accessories - $500 

This stuff can add up so quick it best to do it right once save up and get each piece of kit when you can unless you are $$$$$$$


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

The Italian said:


> This is for a Mazda sGT and yes, I'm keeping the head unit. However, one of the guys I trust did a whole analysis on the system and the head unit doesn't do anything to the audio. Everything is processed by the Bose AMP located under the passenger's seat. I refuse to use an LOC and if I only had the option of starting with high signal outs, I would replace the head unit. The long and very involved write-up that he did basically verifies that if you use the inputs into the amp and bypass it altogether, you have clean, unmolested signals to work with. I'm just wondering what impact my old-school approach might have. I've always disregarded center channels but once again, we didn't have any real advanced technology to incorporate it into our systems. I assume that sound engineers try to create the best acoustics possible given the restrictions placed on them by the other design teams. But as I read that sentence back, I realize that I might be giving the whole OEM car audio departments too much credit....lol


Mazda 6? 

My wife has a '15 6 GT with the Bose system and most of the Mazda Bose Centerpoint systems are the same regardless of model. With the Helix processors like the DSP Ultra, Pro Mk2 and V Twelve, you can actually have your cake and eat it, too. At least, that is the plan for my wife's car using a V Twelve. You can grab the upmixed/processed signal from the Bose Amp output and feed it to the high level input on the processor. Additionally, you can grab the full range, flat signal from the head unit output (OE or aftermarket) and feed it to the low level input on the processor.

What this allows you to do is create multiple presets/IO mixes using the two different sources. One can maintain the upmixed signal from the amp for multi-seat with less processing required, and another can be used to optimize a single seat tune (more processing required). Keep in mind though, that means at least two full tunes. So, either more work for yourself or your tuner.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Wow... this is a great discussion!!
Good info! and great that u guys take the time to write it all so others can learn...
Like The Italian I am also an old scool caraudio guy and currently changing the set up in my classic car... which has... classic audio 😁
(I am using the Nakamichi CD700II head unit and some very old but pretty good Hifonics Gemini and Hercules amps, that still amaze me for their age. But I might change them with my Zapco Studio amps).
I use self made passive XO's (old Audiocontrol EQTs I tried sounded crap to me) but THINK about trying a good sounding DSP too. (If it doesnt take too much of the original sound away).

The Italian, I hope u are okay if I ask a bit on your thread, but I think it may help u too...

I thought about Dayton, (and the Minidsp with correction, but recall that some audiophiles were dissapointed by the sound of the old cheaper Minidsp versions) but as Holmz & SkizeR explained it may not do the job well enough, where with Helix it will. 

- But, is it doable to tune the Helix with no experience in Dsp, but with a set of well trained ears and some experience in building home speakers?
(I dont want to have it done in a shop, I may not like their settings and want to tweak it myself to get "most" out of it).
Although, I dont have months to learn... but I tuned passive XOs by ear which I enjoy doing...

- For a simple 2 way (no center yet) or maybe 3 way in the future, is the Helix Pro2 a much better choice then the Helix Dsp3?

Btw. I saw SkizeR's Helix demo vid on youtube, thats a lot of advanced possibilities... nice!


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

opekone said:


> He does sell the units, but to be fair he explained in detail specifically what the units he reccomends do that the others don't. I'm concerned with your aggressive confusion.


Hey, thanks for your concern. No need to assume, you could have asked if I am confused etc. I am very calm & in a good mood, I hope you are as well!

I am telling other posters who read this thread that SkizeR post was awesome it was filled with good info.

I am also saying he sells the units & works with Audiotech Fischer directly for clarity to those members or non members who may not know.

He does not state his AF affiliation in his signature which in other forums I participate in that will get you banned not disclosing who you are and what companies you work for.

He also said at the end when discussing Zapco DC to not trust anyone on a forum & get caught up in hype in certain products ( or something along those lines, don’t want to
misconstrue his words ) which is also great info. You can get lost in a rabbit hole with this stuff! 

Bias is a real thing especially when someone has financial interests invested. He sells Helix, he is bias. 
I run Helix now so I am partly bias. 

When I first started out here asking questions about DSP’s he wasnt pushing them as hard as he is now. Still, As soon as I expressed interest in Helix DSP SkizeR private messaged me about purchasing a Helix DSP via him. 

I have no issue with SkizeR or him selling AF.

He posted saying I was wrong regarding my DSP output voltage. So I asked him to clarify. If you want to help, then help. It doesn’t help anyone when you tell someone you are doing it wrong you dont provide why or how.


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

Don Camillo said:


> For a simple 2 way (no center) or maybe 3 way in the future, is the Helix Pro2 a much better choice then the Helix Dsp3?


No need to spend money on the Pro for a 2 or 3 way with no center, the regular DSP.3 will do that just fine. 

The MiniDSP C-DSP 6x8 is only $275 and would be equally as fine for a 2 or 3 way as the Helix. 

Pick your poison, both companies offer equally capable DSPs.


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## Nineteen69Mach1 (May 30, 2017)

Just my 2 cents and this is from my personal experience. 
I've ran in my personal vehicles a Zapco Z8, Helix PRO MK2 and JL Audio.

First was the Zapco Z8 it wasn't the cheapest out of the one I've ran, but it was the worst. The software was buggy and slow. Always had an issue with it. When it did would it did what it was supposed to, nothing more nothing less.

Then I got the Helix PRO MK2. This one was the most expensive and by fast the BEST I've owned and have worked with. I've not have a single issue with it. It was the more difficult to install and set up but it did everything exceptionally well and fast. I love this unit and would HIGHLY recommend it.

Then there is the JL, its been the cheapest and the most user friendly. It does what its suppose to do and it does it well and quickly.
I've not had a sigle issue with it.

Bang for the buck for me is the JL. 
The BEST for me is the Helix. 
I would recommend saving up the exrt for the Helix or search the classified for one.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

rton20s said:


> Mazda 6?
> 
> My wife has a '15 6 GT with the Bose system and most of the Mazda Bose Centerpoint systems are the same regardless of model. With the Helix processors like the DSP Ultra, Pro Mk2 and V Twelve, you can actually have your cake and eat it, too. At least, that is the plan for my wife's car using a V Twelve. You can grab the upmixed/processed signal from the Bose Amp output and feed it to the high level input on the processor. Additionally, you can grab the full range, flat signal from the head unit output (OE or aftermarket) and feed it to the low level input on the processor.
> 
> What this allows you to do is create multiple presets/IO mixes using the two different sources. One can maintain the upmixed signal from the amp for multi-seat with less processing required, and another can be used to optimize a single seat tune (more processing required). Keep in mind though, that means at least two full tunes. So, either more work for yourself or your tuner.


I don't mind one little bit...we're all in this together and I try to get as much as I can from what you guys share!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

The Italian said:


> Yeah, I agree with you. The only place where I "might" have to deviate is if the equipment is much more expensive buying it through him. I am actually willing to pay a premium for equipment and a good chunk of change for his services; I believe in this strongly. I just don't want to spend an exorbitant amount for an identical unit. In fact, I would rather pay him maybe something like half of what I save on hardware for labor. That way, we both come out ahead. I offered this to another shop a couple of weeks ago.


and this is the exact mindset that shops walk. There is a reason we charge MAP-MSRP. Our support cant be matched by buying on amazon/buying used, and this mindset usually goes hand in hand with other qualities that is not ideal for a shop to be dealing with. Dont do that. You are going to one of the best installers in the world. He deserves every dime he asks for


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ChaseUTB said:


> You just wrote in a long post that most DSP are **** and you Only install helix in your shop unless another customer has a different unit.


You are right that I said most are ****, and I believe that to be true. There is just not enough money in the car audio industry to pay for a good team of engineers to make something that's good. DSP's are not easy to design, the software/GUI is not easy to write/design. This stuff costs a ton of money to do properly. Car audio companies don't have a ton of money these days. I only install customer supplied product in certain and rare situations. most of the time it's not worth the potential, and usually inevitable hassle.




ChaseUTB said:


> You are a helix dealer and installer and work hand in hand with Audiotex Fischer.


Yes I am



ChaseUTB said:


> You have 0 videos on any other units


Ok, so?



ChaseUTB said:


> & the videos you have posted work with AF US distributor & Tech support.


So? i was in town for an unrelated training and swung by their office for two days. My youtube channel is frankly just for marketing purposes for my own business. No one else's. Those DSP videos get me install jobs.




ChaseUTB said:


> The only DSP you recommended and had nothing bad to say about was the brand you work with. It’s fine to “ like what you like “ aka what makes you $ but if everyone knows you are a helix dealer they can take your info in with true context. Since I have been reading this forum you have been a die hard helix dealer, installer, & you literally said every DSP is **** besides Helix or Mosconi/ Arc but their SW is not advanced & has issues.


As I said, I am a direct to manufacturer dealer for probably 5 different brands of DSP's and have access to any one I desire through distributors. I could sell AD car audio DSP's and make hand over fist on average at best DSP's due to the insane mark up. I could sell Arc and get some "bonus points" from some of the competition crowd since a lot think they "sound" the best. I could sell Mosconi and work towards making it to a higher tier of dealer status to get better margins, credit back, and free trainings. But I don't, I use helix because its what I know to be the most flexible/solid line, software and hardware, on the market. If you actually go back to my posts from before I even worked in the industry, I was still using and recommending helix. If you went back and looked at when I worked my ass off out of my parent's tiny ass driveway when I wasn't a dealer for anyone, I was still using helix. Even paying full price for it or having customers supply it themselves. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what brand name is on a product I sell. If I sell it, I make money. Unbeknownst to most of this forum, that's actually how a retail business works. The reason I recommend it and use it as heavily as I do is that the unit genuinely is rock ****ing solid. They have about 20 DSP's on the same software. It all carries over. Their software guy is an audio engineer and is able to set up the GUI to allow for ANY possible tuning workflow you could imagine. The hardware is also rock solid. All of the issues I thought I had turned out to be user error. The hardware has NEVER had real issues for me. I see people complaining about minor issues, but I can't help believe that they are all user error, just as I have experienced. Wanna know another reason why I use em and recommend them as I do? Let me get cocky for a second... because I know what the hell I'm doing. I am VERY good at what I do. I'll be damned if there is someone on this forum that is more well versed in tuning a processor that has the first-hand experience with all of the processors I have used. Not saying I'm a better tuner than everyone. Hell, I know Steve, Ben, and Erin are both better tuners than me, but I'll be damned if they have used all of the processors that I have to the extent that I have. So to continue this cocky triade, I really do think my opinion holds more weight in this thread than any other member on here, period. You have only been a member here for 2 years. I've been here for about 10, since my start in car audio. Search back 3+ years in my posts from before I was a dealer for anyone, OR even working for a dealer who only did Audison DSP's. Let me know what you see me recommending and why. If you don't want to see me "advertising" products, then put me on your ignore list.





ChaseUTB said:


> I am also interested in how I am wrong measuring the AC voltage from DSP outputs using a DMM. You said that not how it works so please share


You said this..



ChaseUTB said:


> The helix DSP3 has 6V outputs so my amps run cooler, less hard than before with a skimp 3-3.5V max from the Zapco & Hertz.


Sorry I didn't go into detail. To be honest, I catch myself writing posts like these and my other one and realize it's not worth my time/effort (frankly, because the forum is just like this). That was one of those times. This is not how gain works and how amps work. A higher input signal doesn't mean the amp works less. You just get to make its input less sensitive. If an amp is putting X amount of power out, it doesn't matter what input voltage it's receiving, its still "working" just as hard. So if source unit 1 puts out 2 volts at max volume, and source unit 2 puts out 8 volts at max volume, you adjust the amplifier gain to accommodate that range of voltage. Once you do that properly, the amp runs the same. No cooler/hotter, no harder/not as hard, etc etc. I'm sorry if me calling out the fallacy that you posted offended you, but if I don't, who does? and if no one does, more misinformation spreads and this place becomes an even bigger dump than it already has become.


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> The audison bit one should have been discontinued years ago. Yet, the processor that came out in like 2007 is still being sold for $800. It is buggy, pain in the ass to use if you are after a high level of sound quality (here's where the typical shop owners who are set it and forget it types say "its fine to use", except all they do is set crossovers and half assed delays lol), and limited. The Audiocontrol is almost like the 2018 version of the bit one. Buggy as all hell upon release, and still buggy as all hell to this day. I don't think I've ever been more frustrated tuning than with an Audiocontrol DSP. Rockford, Zapco (older models) and Audison are up there though. Zapco, i was helping beta test the new dsp software before distribution was pulled from a-trend. I haven't used them since, but at the time (almost complete), it was a disaster. The old models were a disaster as well. No idea how they fair these days.
> 
> So heres my list of most the processors that i have used, ranked from first to last in terms of what i would prefer to use..
> 
> ...


Appreciate ya for taking the time to post that. 

With brands like Zapco, Helix, Alpine, Arc, & the sort, being mentioned around the forums, it's hard to learn & retain the merits of each brand if you don't live car audio. 

Being an enthusiasts, I don't tend to deep dive into research unless I'm in the market. Although, I do hate my money so I always tend to keep my options open & recently been thinking about upgrading my DSP so your post was helpful. 

Thank you.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> Once you do that properly, the amp runs the same. No cooler/hotter, no harder/not as hard, etc etc.


The one benefit you get from that higher input voltage and the lower input sensitivity/gain settings is the amp is going to ignore weaker signals (noise) that it might otherwise take as signal.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ChaseUTB said:


> Hey, thanks for your concern. No need to assume, you could have asked if I am confused etc. I am very calm & in a good mood, I hope you are as well!


same. The way I type is mostly to get it written out as fast as possible and it usually doesn't come off as friendly. Im sure many have encountered me in that light, even though I rarely mean it that way.



ChaseUTB said:


> I am telling other posters who read this thread that SkizeR post was awesome it was filled with good info.


Thank you



ChaseUTB said:


> I am also saying he sells the units & works with Audiotech Fischer directly for clarity to those members or non members who may not know.
> 
> He does not state his AF affiliation in his signature which in other forums I participate in that will get you banned not disclosing who you are and what companies you work for.


Ummm, I think you have a misunderstanding of my relationship with Audiotec Fischer. I do no work for audiotec fischer lol. I have been a fan of their products since 2015(?) and became a dealer for them in 2018. I am a dealer for them, and many other brands (some of which also sell DSP's). The only companies I work for are the ones I own. Apicella Auto Sound, and ResoNix Sound Solutions. I think you have a misunderstanding on what my relationship is with them.



ChaseUTB said:


> He also said at the end when discussing Zapco DC to not trust anyone on a forum & get caught up in hype in certain products ( or something along those lines, don’t want to
> misconstrue his words ) which is also great info. You can get lost in a rabbit hole with this stuff!


You're right. I did say that and i stand with it. The information that comes from this forum these days is laughable on a good day, dangerous on a bad day.



ChaseUTB said:


> Bias is a real thing especially when someone has financial interests invested. He sells Helix, he is bias.
> I run Helix now so I am partly bias.


Of course bias is a real thing. We're only human after all. But that said, go back to my other post. I was suggesting them and helping with them before i even thought of owning my own car audio shop, and i am a direct manufacture dealer with many other brands that sell DSP's. I use Helix because it is the overall best, period.



ChaseUTB said:


> When I first started out here asking questions about DSP’s he wasnt pushing them as hard as he is now. Still, As soon as I expressed interest in Helix DSP SkizeR private messaged me about purchasing a Helix DSP via him.


I remember this now. This was when HAT was dropped as the distributor and i needed money to put a deposit down on my shop. Had to do what i had to do.





ChaseUTB said:


> He posted saying I was wrong regarding my DSP output voltage. So I asked him to clarify. If you want to help, then help. It doesn’t help anyone when you tell someone you are doing it wrong you dont provide why or how.


you we're wrong in your description of how it relates to the operation of the amplifier after the dsp.







Ok, so here is going to be another comment where members might get pissed at me, so buckle up. That said, i know all of these posts come from members thinking I'm here just to try to sell to you guys and make money. TBH, that's laughable. Yes, if the opportunity is presented, I will make a sale. But looking for sales here is not worth the time/effort. This place is FULL of people who want to spend as little as possible, haggle as much as possible, and waste time as much as possible. Frankly, I'm here because i have some weird, ****ed up addiction and cant help myself. If i really wanted to be selling to people, DIYMA is the LAST place i'd be spending my time. I cannot even put into words how little money i make from doing installs/tunes/selling product to members here. If it were money i was after, i'd have had a mod ban me years ago so i can actually get back to work, as well as actually advertise where people do spend money. Places like 6 Speed Online, the Robb Report, etc. places where people have real money to throw around. When i was working in Manhattan and i did the advertising on the high end car forums, we were landing jobs from guys that were having their drivers drop the cars off for 30k+ in upgrades regularly. This website... there's no money to be made here, only time to waste. (relatively speaking, and just generalizing of course)


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

opekone said:


> The one benefit you get from that higher input voltage and the lower input sensitivity/gain settings is the amp is going to ignore weaker signals (noise) that it might otherwise take as signal.


the benefit you get is a lower noise floor from having the amp gain down. amplifier pre-amp circuits usually have noise in them. lower the gain, the lower the noise floor. Just try it. Also, any induced noise is also lessened due to relative levels. That said, induced noise is rarely an issue.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> and this is the exact mindset that shops walk. There is a reason we charge MAP-MSRP. Our support cant be matched by buying on amazon/buying used, and this mindset usually goes hand in hand with other qualities that is not ideal for a shop to be dealing with. Dont do that. You are going to one of the best installers in the world. He deserves every dime he asks for


I'm not sure you got my point here. I am a strong believer in supporting brick and mortar stores. As I stated, I am willing to pay a premium for hardware and to compensate people well for their work. I don't anticipate this being an issue but* "if" *they have the same product that I can get from a reputable on-line AD at twice the price, then I'm going to call foul. That's what I referred to and I stand by it.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

The Italian said:


> I'm not sure you got my point here. I am a strong believer in supporting brick and mortar stores. As I stated, I am willing to pay a premium for hardware and to compensate people well for their work. I don't anticipate this being an issue but* "if" *they have the same product that I can get from a reputable on-line AD at twice the price, then I'm going to call foul. That's what I referred to and I stand by it.


If you're going to quote amazon/ebay prices, then you're going to call foul. But then there's the lack of support/warranty. You already know how it is and I don't need to explain it to you


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

naiku said:


> No need to spend money on the Pro for a 2 or 3 way with no center, the regular DSP.3 will do that just fine.
> 
> The MiniDSP C-DSP 6x8 is only $275 and would be equally as fine for a 2 or 3 way as the Helix.
> 
> Pick your poison, both companies offer equally capable DSPs.


Okay, but also pure soundwise?
I mean its another digital gear with D/A converters in it, so there must be difference in sound....

Also thats one of my (major) concerns; my setup now may sound more real or "analogue" with the dacs in my Nakamichi CD700II and passive (well tuned custom xo's for this setup in this car).
Not looking at imaging and other benefits of Dsp of course, just sound...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Don Camillo said:


> Okay, but also pure soundwise?
> I mean its another digital gear with D/A converters in it, so there must be difference in sound....
> 
> Also thats one of my (major) concerns; my setup now may sound more real or "analogue" with the dacs in my Nakamichi CD700II and passive (well tuned custom xo's for this setup in this car).
> Not looking at imaging and other benefits of Dsp of course, just sound...


all of the new gen (anything with the ACO co-processor) seem to sound better than anything from the previous gen, so the DSP.3 is actually better sounding, or so it seems than even the pro mk2. The ultra is a noticeable step up from the pro mk2. And when we bench tested it, the Brax was a very noticeable difference up from there believe it or not.


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## Smdaniel-11 (Feb 4, 2019)

Like my Helix Pro.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

If prices of units at online stores are half, then shopowners need to talk to the distributors! Bc thats insane.
If its just 20% more than online, always buy at a good installer.

I am a shopowner and specialist in a whole different product and believe me its a completely different end result when we install it, or "some" shop with lesser knowledge does. Let alone ppl buying online and trying themselves (with no knowledge).

Its definately worth the extra buck for a pro install and better service for the years to come and enjoy it more bc its simply better....!

But if you have some knowledge and want to risk trying it yourself, you can risk it... but you cant ask (and expect) a pro later on to adjust it bc he didnt make any money of selling the unit... 

You guys in the US can have it adjust by top installers. Thats great. But not in my country...


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> all of the new gen (anything with the ACO co-processor) seem to sound better than anything from the previous gen, so the DSP.3 is actually better sounding, or so it seems than even the pro mk2. The ultra is a noticeable step up from the pro mk2. And when we bench tested it, the Brax was a very noticeable difference up from there believe it or not.


Great, thats good to hear. Thanks!
So then for me it may be the Dsp3 for now. 👍 (or still passive 😉)


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

The Italian said:


> While I appreciate your feedback, it's a bit presumptuous to assume that I haven't been doing some independent research. It's very difficult to research something that has been abbreviated or a model referred to by slang. A simple manufacturer & model was all I was asking about. That makes independent research much easier which leads to less dumb questions.
> ...


I am sure you have.
It is just a lot of work.

And then secondly, if you form your own opinions or theories (and post them) then it can be easier for others to critique or agree with them.




The Italian said:


> ...
> But this is a community that exists, in no small part, for members to share with each other. I see nothing wrong with asking. As for your analogy, I have to disagree. It's not sushi versus pasta but rather who makes the best of each. Still, I value your opinion and thank you for participating!


Yes, agreed, there is nothing wrong with asking.
Even then you will get a noisy response with a bunch of forum experts opining, and you will need to ferret out what the truth is, hopefully without using confirmation bias.

And then best of each is easier than "the best value" in each category.
So if you are going to throw out Dirac and just stick with the others, it is an easier job.

But it is still a complex trade space, with a lot of magic and qualitative descriptors used.
And then also with a variety of opinions.

So if one is going to DIY, one needs to put in a lot of work to catch up with the average installer in terms of understanding etc. it is a lot of time to get more than a basic understanding.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> Never heard of waveflex, but we have a few APL1's at the shop. I dont really think they should be put into my post above since the APL1 is just a 2 channel FIR processor. Its an addition to another dsp, not a replacement. I was actually going to buy Kevin an APL1012 for his birthday until i looked at the price and my bank account lol. Sorry Kev lol


What does being a FiR processors mean?
The new ones have 2 inputs and 10 outputs.

What functions does the DSP need to do, that the APL doesn't?

I assume Kev is your cohort?


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## theobjectivist (Sep 29, 2016)

@SkizeR 

You mentioned working with zapco on beta testing their software. Have you not had a chance (or desire) to look at the latest zapco DSP V software? I downloaded to compare with the latest helix software and it seems polished. I dont have the experience to understand the subtleties and realize if it's still that bad compared to AF's though

The Z16 HDSP's feature set and build quality looks enticing so im hoping at least some of the professionals have had positive experience


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> If you're going to quote amazon/ebay prices, then you're going to call foul. But then there's the lack of support/warranty. You already know how it is and I don't need to explain it to you


I said Ad's. I wasn't talking about grey market dealer.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Holmz said:


> I am sure you have.
> It is just a lot of work.
> 
> And then secondly, if you form your own opinions or theories (and post them) then it can be easier for others to critique or agree with them.
> ...


Thanks for this response, it's a helpful one! I apologize but I don't know how to do multiple quotes so I'll just respond this way. 

I completely agree about the noise level of responses; everyone comes at this from their own perspective and brings in their own biases. (Myself included) 

I have been working on this system design since I bought this car. By far, my weakest area lies in the newer technologies. Before I started this thread, I spent a bunch of time catching up on what some of the manufacturers I knew have been doing and learning about the new companies I was unfamiliar with. 

I'm going on 6 months now and I'm still have a lot to learn although my objective is not to become a pro like @SkizeR or anything of the sort. But I know enough to know that there's more to do. I redesigned my system diagrams more times than I can remember to be honest... Hahaha 

But I'm seeing light at the end of the tunnel; at least for my objectives. And I would have posted specifics like the equipment I plan to use or my ideas for different system designs but to be completely candid, some of these threads deteriorate into pissing contests very quickly. I get nothing out of posts when the objective becomes bagging on other people or trying to show off how smart someone is. 

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughtful response!


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Holmz said:


> What does being a FiR processors mean?
> The new ones have 2 inputs and 10 outputs.
> 
> What functions does the DSP need to do, that the APL doesn't?
> ...


Fir means eq changes dont affect phase response. It saves you a bunch of allpass work.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

opekone said:


> Fir means eq changes dont affect phase response. It saves you a bunch of allpass work.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


You kinda have the idea, but not exactly the correct reason. In a minimum phase system, frequency response and phase response go hand in hand. A flat frequency response means a flat phase response, so fixing frequency response deviations also fixed phase response deviations. A car usually and mostly behaves as a quasi-minimum phase system, but not completely. The fir filters come in handy since it can adjust phase and frequency separate from each other. In most areas of the frequency spectrum, this isn't needed. But it some, its helpful. The whole "eq bad because phase" is moronic at best as again, they usually go hand in hand. You usually want your eq to effect phase. But there are just some summed reflections in a car that cause cancelations, this is where the fir filters help. Most of the time all pass filters can do the same.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> You kinda have the idea, but not exactly the correct reason. In a minimum phase system, frequency response and phase response go hand in hand. A flat frequency response means a flat phase response, so fixing frequency response deviations also fixed phase response deviations. A car usually and mostly behaves as a quasi-minimum phase system, but not completely. The fir filters come in handy since it can adjust phase and frequency separate from each other. In most areas of the frequency spectrum, this isn't needed. But it some, its helpful. The whole "eq bad because phase" is moronic at best as again, they usually go hand in hand. You usually want your eq to effect phase. But there are just some summed reflections in a car that cause cancelations, this is where the fir filters help. Most of the time all pass filters can do the same.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Thanks for offering some clarity. Why would eq related phase changes ever be desired?

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

opekone said:


> Thanks for offering some clarity. Why would eq related phase changes ever be desired?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


re-read my comment.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Skizer did do a review using a zapco dsp in a running video


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

I maybe biased. but the Dayton 408 is a great DSP for the money. it lacks a few features that some of the higher end ones have. but it is ultra clean. doesnt add noise to the system and very flexable to setup.

for the price you cant beat it.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

I've read these two screenshots a few times and it's still not completely clear to me. Granted, I'm also trying to work but I don't think I'm alone in saying that some of the independent research that we "novices" do, can be difficult to grasp. 

I think this is explained well and I do understand most of the content. Still, I'm not clear on how the center channel plays into the equation. I mean, is it something to be avoided or does this technology make use of it to improve the overall sound? 

Please keep in mind that I currently have a center channel and I'm about to either buy a speaker to upgrade it or complete remove it from the new system. 

















This is info on the Helix DSP by the way. Thanks!


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## theobjectivist (Sep 29, 2016)

dcfis said:


> Skizer did do a review using a zapco dsp in a running video


You have the link handy? I cant find anything HDSP V related on the channel


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## ShastaMcNasty (Dec 10, 2017)

Everyone I know who has the Helix Ultra DSP (Audiotech Fischer) has nothing but good things to say. It has some pretty amazing features including bass management (so you don’t end up increasing/lowering bass as you turn the sound up/down). However, if you don’t need 10+ channels it may be overkill. It’s one of the more costly options too.

i just bought one for my latest build but haven’t installed it yet. Would be happy to follow up once I have had some time with it.

Good luck!


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

minbari said:


> I maybe biased. but the Dayton 408 is a great DSP for the money. it lacks a few features that some of the higher end ones have. but it is ultra clean. doesnt add noise to the system and very flexable to setup.
> 
> for the price you cant beat it.


Well at least the price is awesome. But pure soundwise I am very curious if it is in the same league as the Helix Dsp.3. 
As I may only gonna use the dsp for the sub, to get it up front, (or maybe with the 6.5 in doors... to try what difference it will make with and without dsp, soundwise) it will save some money compared to the Helix. 

Does anybody had both units??


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> Well at least the price is awesome. But pure soundwise I am very curious if it is in the same league as the Helix Dsp.3.
> As I may only gonna use the dsp for the sub, to get it up front, (or maybe with the 6.5 in doors... to try what difference it will make with and without dsp, soundwise) it will save some money compared to the Helix.
> 
> Does anybody had both units??


Well, even I can answer that one. I've read some reviews and I came away with the conclusion that no, absolutely no. It's a budget option, but not in the same ballpark as the DSP.3.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

I thought I mentioned magic earlier.
There is a lot of qualitativ words in there of the magic kind.



The Italian said:


> ...
> View attachment 271045
> View attachment 271046
> 
> ...


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

opekone said:


> Thanks for offering some clarity. Why would eq related phase changes ever be desired?


Same reason an all pass maybe desired.
Other than having phase in the cross over be zero,, impulse response and group delay are two other reasons.



opekone said:


> Fir means eq changes dont affect phase response. It saves you a bunch of allpass work.


A FIR can be symmetric or assymetric.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

A great job was done on explaining FIR, but I thinking of *processor* in "*FIR* *processor*"

And then also if there are 5 outputs per input channel, then what does the additional DSP need to do.



Holmz said:


> What does being a FiR processors mean?
> *The new ones have 2 inputs and 10 outputs.
> 
> What functions does the DSP need to do, that the APL doesn't?*
> ...


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

The Italian said:


> Well, even I can answer that one. I've read some reviews and I came away with the conclusion that no, absolutely no. It's a budget option, but not in the same ballpark as the DSP.3.


Okay thanks, yeah it was to be expected, that cheap......


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

The Italian said:


> I know it's a broad question without putting a dollar figure on it, but still I'm wondering what general opinions are. Thanks!


6 months ago i didnt know what a car dsp was or how important they are.

I now have a helix ultra and it is awesome. I have it on good advice that fir gives you things that iir doesnt. Helix doesn't support fir. @SkizeR might be able to explain the pros and cons. But its esoteric and i dont compete and suspect that makes a marginal difference for me. Mini dsp runs fir or iir they have a page on it so you would be covered and future proof. If you can't. Find the page ill chase it up for you.

The helix ultra is 90% of a brax at a fraction of the price. The dsp.3 shares the same architecture. So dont buy a helix dsp pro mk2. This paragraph is a direct quote from an AF distibutor. I dont know if the helix mini has the modern archtecture @SkizeR would know. it didnt have the inputs and outputs i needed.

Beware buying helix cos once you have the basic unit there are AU$300 accessories you will want. And a $100 or $500 controller. There are 2 i needed. But awesome product.

As well as being an awesome DSP the ultra functions as a DAC and preamp. It is truly audiophile quality for SQ. Many on this forum believe all DSPs sound the same and its only about the signal processing. Thats complete ********. The back end DAC and preamp performance is critical to SQ. Good luck 😄

Ps i had all this done before i knew about DSPs. Sam's Challenger

Ultra retrofitted like a dream.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

@Sam Spade 
Please remove my name from that as someone for the Italian to "reach out and ask".

FFS, it is literally 2-3 posts up I am asking questions about FIR.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Holmz said:


> @Sam Spade
> Please remove my name from that as someone for the Italian to "reach out and ask".
> 
> FFS, it is literally 2-3 posts up I am asking questions about FIR.


Sorry and done. But you are tha expert


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> Sorry and done. But you are tha expert


Thanks, and am I?


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## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> all of the new gen (anything with the ACO co-processor) seem to sound better than anything from the previous gen, so the DSP.3 is actually better sounding, or so it seems than even the pro mk2. The ultra is a noticeable step up from the pro mk2. And when we bench tested it, the Brax was a very noticeable difference up from there believe it or not.


Able to clarify what you personally mean by better sounding?

(Haha sorry Nick, I had to do it.. I know how you love SQ descriptions )


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Indeed the dacs, and everything inside (like with all audio gear) is responsible for the sound. So if the MiniDsp (or Dayton) is allright (or even better) in software but not so high endish in the chosen components then for most ppl it will be perfectly fine but for a audiophile SQ freak (like myself) its not satisfied enough... 

Thats why I 'think' I might enjoy a well tweaked passive system with top xo parts at my high end Nakamichi CD700II with good dacs inside more than a mid-end Dsp in there... 

Since for me this setup is in my classic car (which I dont drive that often) and it seems with the Helix dsp.3 and its accessories it will be an extra grand or so... isnt there an older brand that still sounds very good?? 
Maybe a Mosconi or so? 
- Probably not... 😧

Sam, did you adjust/tune the Ultra yourself? Or what would tuning by a good shop approx cost?

I klicked on Challenger, but see a Mitsubishi, is that the one or is it the wrong link? (Great sounddeadening btw).


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## ShastaMcNasty (Dec 10, 2017)

Don Camillo said:


> Since for me this setup is in my classic car (which I dont drive that often) and it seems with the Helix dsp.3 and its accessories it will be an extra grand or so... isnt there an older brand that still sounds very good??


My last install was in my ‘74 BMW 2002tii. I ended up using a McIntosh MX406 head unit hooked up to a 4-channel McIntosh amp to power a set of components and a small subwoofer. It sounded fantastic. My previous classic, a ‘72 BMW 2002, was previously owned by a big time car audio guy. He installed 4 x A/D/S power plate amps that were powering several sets of A/D/S 5 1/4” and 6 1/2” components up front and in the rear, and two 8” IB subs mounted on the rear parcel tray. The head unit had been replaced with a more modern Alpine. That set up sounded amazing. At the time it was installed (back in the early 80s) it was supposedly an $8000 build (he used the car as his “Mobile Showroom” so it was probably a write-off for him). I have a feeling you could get all of this stuff on eBay for under a grand nowadays. 

The older cars are so much smaller, so the distance between you and the speakers, and therefore the need for a DSP, isn’t as prevalent. I’m sure you could hook that Nakamichi up to something like an old school A/D/S power plate and it would sound amazing!


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

ShastaMcNasty said:


> My last install was in my ‘74 BMW 2002tii. I ended up using a McIntosh MX406 head unit hooked up to a 4-channel McIntosh amp to power a set of components and a small subwoofer. It sounded fantastic. My previous classic, a ‘72 BMW 2002, was previously owned by a big time car audio guy. He installed 4 x A/D/S power plate amps that were powering several sets of A/D/S 5 1/4” and 6 1/2” components up front and in the rear, and two 8” IB subs mounted on the rear parcel tray. The head unit had been replaced with a more modern Alpine. That set up sounded amazing. At the time it was installed (back in the early 80s) it was supposedly an $8000 build (he used the car as his “Mobile Showroom” so it was probably a write-off for him). I have a feeling you could get all of this stuff on eBay for under a grand nowadays.
> 
> The older cars are so much smaller, so the distance between you and the speakers, and therefore the need for a DSP, isn’t as prevalent. I’m sure you could hook that Nakamichi up to something like an old school A/D/S power plate and it would sound amazing!


Nice!! Mcintosh is great!... (also for home audio) and nice in an 70's Bmw!
I often still regret it that I passed on their used topmodel 6x200w McIntosh csramp that I could buy for € 1500,- years ago.... (now its price is double)

You are right about having a good components system setup right (without dsp) that it can sound amazing. I heard some cars who competed in the ninetees, that sounded very nice too! (Modified heavily, also with heavy steel rings , that I had too in my setup...)
But tbh I am not sure if I would be that impressed today, bc i have heard so many High end home sets since then... and have way better trained ears nowadays...

The smaller distance in European 70's cars is true, however in my case with the Jaguar XJ its still pretty wide inside...
I think where I would benefit most is getting my rear 12" sub sounding from the front...

I never heard the A/D/S, I used Zapco Studio and Reference amps back then (which I still have). But I'll look into it... Thanks!


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Don Camillo said:


> Well at least the price is awesome. But pure soundwise I am very curious if it is in the same league as the Helix Dsp.3.
> As I may only gonna use the dsp for the sub, to get it up front, (or maybe with the 6.5 in doors... to try what difference it will make with and without dsp, soundwise) it will save some money compared to the Helix.
> 
> Does anybody had both units??


its all in the setup. I think it sounds incredible and have no plans to replace it.


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

minbari said:


> its all in the setup. I think it sounds incredible and have no plans to replace it.


Agreed, I'd bet the Dayton would do just fine, especially in a classic car where they are typically not all that quiet to begin with. I think I have only heard one Dayton DSP, sounded good from where I was sitting.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

naiku said:


> Agreed, I'd bet the Dayton would do just fine, especially in a classic car where they are typically not all that quiet to begin with. I think I have only heard one Dayton DSP, sounded good from where I was sitting.


If I choose to only use dsp on the sub, then its definately fine...

This Jaguar is pretty quiet!.. (already, and I did some extra).


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

the dayton is pretty sweet for the price. For 150 bucks i'd expect a brick. Turns out its actually halfway decent.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I'd be curious why the 5-Star guys dislike the Dayton so much. They seemed to approve during their "Walk through" of it, but then after actually using it in-car, their opinion of it seemed to change drastically... Don't know why though. I just know that I've read a lot of noise-related issues with the bass knob, but that is really about it. I actually bought a Dayton when they had them for $70, but I've never used it in-car, so don't really have an actual in-car experience with it. 

One of these days, I'll find a use for it - may even put it in my old car (now the wifes car) - it's a VERY basic setup that could use some help!


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

I used the Dayton 408 when they first came out in 2018. I did not use the remote knob or Bluetooth. I never had any noise issues nor did I experience any functional issues with it in my application. It worked rather flawlessly and I actually really liked the straight forward and easy to navigate UI.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

jtrosky said:


> I'd be curious why the 5-Star guys dislike the Dayton so much. They seemed to approve during their "Walk through" of it, but then after actually using it in-car, their opinion of it seemed to change drastically... Don't know why though. I just know that I've read a lot of noise-related issues with the bass knob, but that is really about it. I actually bought a Dayton when they had them for $70, but I've never used it in-car, so don't really have an actual in-car experience with it.
> 
> One of these days, I'll find a use for it - may even put it in my old car (now the wifes car) - it's a VERY basic setup that could use some help!


Because the 5 star guys are installers. They are dealing with MANY different situations on a daily basis, and the processors they use need to be able to handle them. If you are using a basic radio with the preouts, its fine. Good luck with any oem integration though. Then again, they do use audiocontrol (which has been the biggest pain in thr ass I've ever had to tune) a lot so I can't picture that it doesn't have something to with the partnership they have.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## SUPGOD1980 (Jun 4, 2020)

SkizeR.. is it worth it to incorporate a DSP into a SQL system or are they really just for pure SQ. will purchase one from you if it would be worth it.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

ShastaMcNasty said:


> The older cars are so much smaller, so the distance between you and the speakers, and therefore *the need for a DSP, isn’t as prevalent*.


This is 100% factually inaccurate.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

SUPGOD1980 said:


> SkizeR.. is it worth it to incorporate a DSP into a SQL system or are they really just for pure SQ. will purchase one from you if it would be worth it.


In general... yes. However, it really depends on what your specific goals are for the system. "SQL" aka Sound Quality Loud (cringe) is one of those terms that could mean a dozen different things to as many people.


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## SUPGOD1980 (Jun 4, 2020)

ony rsx-gs9


rton20s said:


> In general... yes. However, it really depends on what your specific goals are for the system. "SQL" aka Sound Quality Loud (cringe) is one of those terms that could mean a dozen different things to as many people.


 Would like it to sound good and POUND when I’m in the mood. I’m in my youth 😘


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## SUPGOD1980 (Jun 4, 2020)

SQL is a made up term but it means a combination of SPL and SQ.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> Indeed the dacs, and everything inside (like with all audio gear) is responsible for the sound. So if the MiniDsp (or Dayton) is allright (or even better) in software but not so high endish in the chosen components then for most ppl it will be perfectly fine but for a audiophile SQ freak (like myself) its not satisfied enough...
> 
> Thats why I 'think' I might enjoy a well tweaked passive system with top xo parts at my high end Nakamichi CD700II with good dacs inside more than a mid-end Dsp in there...
> 
> ...


Its a mitsbishi challenger station wagon based on the triton ute platform.

By all means keep the nak head unit and connect it to the dsp. But unless it has a SPDIF out you Won't get best sound quality. Get yourself a DAP digital audio player or maybe even a phone / tablet and connect it by the SPDIF optical or coax or usb via the USB HEC module. Dramatically better sound quality than a head unit

Neither my installer or i had put in a helix before. Get a decent microphone start with a drivers seat autotune. Skizer is offering remote tunes too


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

Sam Spade said:


> Its a mitsbishi challenger station wagon based on the triton ute platform.
> 
> By all means keep the nak head unit. But unless it has a SPDIF out you Won't get best sound quality. Get yourself a DAP digital audio player or maybe even a phone / tablet and connect it by the SPDIF optical or coax or usb via the USB HEC module. Dramatically better sound quality than a head unit
> 
> Neither my installer or i had put in a helix before. Get a decent microphone start with a drivers seat autotune. Skizer is offering remote tunes too


Why does he need optical output for it to sound good?


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

It might sound great from the deck. It will sound better with a dedicated digital source. 

This thread will help. Any questions just ask. HELIX DSP ULTRA HEC USB module and the SPDIF inputs A/B...


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

What if his head unit was the digital source? What are you saying differentiates the two? An optical connection?


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

rain27 said:


> What if his head unit was the digital source? What are you saying differentiates the two? An optical connection?


If the head unit has a digital out thats perfect. Most dont. Theres also the issue of carrying CDs around. My 1000+ CDs will eventually be ripped lossless in flac and be on one portable source

Bur really read that thread its really informative


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

Well, some head units have a digital input. 

I’m asking why you think a digital connection automatically means better sound.

The only advantage to using a digital connection is a reduction in noise, if there was any to begin with. The only other reason would be to choose one device’s internals over another, for whatever the reason.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Can i ask have you read that thread?

Note i have a top end kenwood. Head unit and if i play a cd on it and the same album from my astell & kern into the helix dsp coax the A&K. Is substantially better.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

Better sound is not the result from that one variable (digital output from head unit). All a digital connection does is bypass the internals of one device for another, and maybe reduce noise along the way. This end result could be better or worse for it, depending on what device is being bypassed. All I’m saying is that a digital connection alone is not the reason for it.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

The thread i linked is full of listening tests of different sources. AudioGal found that coax digital is better than any other source. Ive found usb out of my A&K converted to spdif whips my head unit. Many, probably a majority of members here with a helix DSP run a digital signal straight into a DSP bypassing the head unit. You simply get better SQ that way


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## lankfordcodi (Apr 28, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> Because the 5 star guys are installers. They are dealing with MANY different situations on a daily basis, and the processors they use need to be able to handle them. If you are using a basic radio with the preouts, its fine. Good luck with any oem integration though. Then again, they do use audiocontrol (which has been the biggest pain in thr ass I've ever had to tune) a lot so I can't picture that it doesn't have something to with the partnership they have.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Yeah Dean did do that tour video of Audiocontrol HQ.


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## lankfordcodi (Apr 28, 2020)

rton20s said:


> In general... yes. However, it really depends on what your specific goals are for the system. "SQL" aka Sound Quality Loud (cringe) is one of those terms that could mean a dozen different things to as many people.



(Cringe) ... LOL says the guy with the WCA avatar pic


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

lankfordcodi said:


> (Cringe) ... LOL says the guy with the WCA avatar pic


Whats cringey about wca?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> Its a mitsbishi challenger station wagon based on the triton ute platform.
> 
> By all means keep the nak head unit and connect it to the dsp. But unless it has a SPDIF out you Won't get best sound quality. Get yourself a DAP digital audio player or maybe even a phone / tablet and connect it by the SPDIF optical or coax or usb via the USB HEC module. Dramatically better sound quality than a head unit
> 
> Neither my installer or i had put in a helix before. Get a decent microphone start with a drivers seat autotune. Skizer is offering remote tunes too


Ahhh okay I thought it was a Dodge 😊

Thanks for the tip!
I tried it with a Shanling Dap with Coax to the headunit and it was pretty dissapointing. The cd player sounded much better. Maybe bc of the BurrBrown pcm1704 dacs inside. Although arent via coax the same dacs used? Then I guess its the player.
I didnt try SPDIF, I dont think it has one. It does have digital in and out.

Thats an interesting read about SPDIF, am gonna read it all later.

Although the Nak sounds nice (very analogue) I think indeed a good dap will sound great (or maybe better) but another advantage is there is less wear on the cd player, delaying future breakdown. (Or how do u say that; I am not English speaking)... Especially when tuning and listening a lot.

I see the Hec Usb module is for the Helix. Is there another good sounding device for connecting a dap to the HU? (For in case I dont use a Dsp)....
The Nak also has digital in, and out.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

To me, being able to control everything from the head-unit is just such a huge advantage. I just don't want to be fiddling with a DAP, or any other device for that matter, for things like track changes, volume adjustments, etc. Sound quality is important, but so is "usability". 

With AndroidAuto - I can control everything from the head-unit - just like I can when using "local" music via a USB port on the head-unit. Just not willing to give up that "ease of use". Locally-stored 320k .mp3 and FLAC files sound pretty damn good from my head-unit...


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> Ahhh okay I thought it was a Dodge 😊
> 
> Thanks for the tip!
> I tried it with a Shanling Dap with Coax to the headunit and it was pretty dissapointing. The cd player sounded much better.
> ...


So @Don Camillo and @rain27 let me explain more clearly but also read the HELIX DSP ULTRA HEC USB module and the SPDIF inputs A/B... thread and especially audiogals notes. And note I am a beginner in carfi beyond a new head unit and front speakers in past cars. But have a long history in headfi and homefi including selling it. And I am going through the same things you are or have been in the last 6 months.

Ok if the nak has digital out thats what id try first and you are seriously lucky most head units don't. It is probably SPDIF. As far as I am aware that is the only digital music output other than USB and HDMI. 

If you can use the nak digital output straight into the helix you are on a winner. That's great. Only problem is carrying the CD's around. Ideally use 75 ohm coax, if it doesn't have that optical will be fine. less cost, and the Nak becomes a control unit esp for volume, start, stop, pause, plus you can get a phone app to control other aspects of the Helix like switching between tunes or sub level etc. Or you can get a director remote for the helix. . 

I have a $AU3500 astell and Kern AKSP1000M. it is sublime through headphones and directly into an amp using lossless FLAC. I plugged it into the aux of my Kenwood and put the same cd in the player. They sounded exactly the same. Then i realised I was an idiot. the Kenwood is a powerful DSP for a head unit. It digitised the A&K signal (AD), fiddled with it and then went back to analogue (DA) and spat it out to the amps. And it took the cd signal in digital, fiddled with it, went D to A and spat out an analogue signal. so it made the cd player and the DAP sound exactly the same. 

Then I put a helix ultra in. the system dramatically improved, on a tune by ear only by my installer. The Kenwood spat the analogue signal out to the helix and it digitised it (AD) processed it and turned it back to analog (DA) and to amps. 

If you can store your music digitally, and spit a digital signal directly out to the helix you will get the best quality cos you aren't going da and ad multiple times. Most people don't have a head unit that will do that so they use a phone, tablet or DAP. You have a Nak with a digital output. 

My helix system is set up so the Kenwood head unit switches it on and controls it. Till a digital signal is detected then the DAP (or your tablet or phone) becomes the head/source unit. The controls o the head unit no longer have control ie volume.

Using a DAP, phone or tablet and a head unit presents problems as it makes it harder to control multiple sources and the helix all at once. You listen to the radio or CD its the head unit. you switch to the DAP, tablet or phone, then that is the source and control unit. Using those sources the head unit volume stop, pause track change doesn't work. You have to use the other source ie DAP, phone, tablet.

Using a URC control unit or helix director or phone app will help. They all cost you extra. The Bluetooth control unit and director are much more expensive than the URC. 

I am waiting for a Bluetooth control unit and a USB HEC. If you have a USB HEC you can run a digital USB signal straight into the helix. The only digital output my A&K and phone have are USB (except Bluetooth and wifi, note I have ignored "radio" signals in this conversation but you may be able to use those. )

There is debate over whether the USB HEC sounds as good as the SPDIF input. I won't know till I get one. People I trust with good ears say that the SPDIF is better. 

Shanling Dap with Coax straight into the helix should sound awesome. I know someone with a Fiio who gets awesome results doing that. 

Many sources have only an analogue or USB out. I am currently converting the A&K USB out into SPDIF then into the Helix using a ifi nano and I have just got a topping D10 to to convert USB to SPDIF . When the USB HEC module arrives I can compare. 

This is complicated and it is late. none of this stuff is really plug and play with a really simple solution like a head unit and DSP built to match each other. The NAK HU wth a digital out sounds like a step closer to this. 

It is a bit late here and My explanation may be a bit confusing. ask any questions you want and if any other forum members think I've made an error please jump in. 

Cheers
Sam. 


,


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

jtrosky said:


> To me, being able to control everything from the head-unit is just such a huge advantage. I just don't want to be fiddling with a DAP, or any other device for that matter, for things like track changes, volume adjustments, etc. Sound quality is important, but so is "usability".
> 
> With AndroidAuto - I can control everything from the head-unit - just like I can when using "local" music via a USB port on the head-unit. Just not willing to give up that "ease of use". Locally-stored 320k .mp3 and FLAC files sound pretty damn good from my head-unit...


I sooooooooooooo get where you are coming from and don't have android auto. If I could get a head unit with a spdif output I would jump on it.

But I can't bring myself to abandon the advantages in SQ I get by running digital files straight into the Helix Ultra. It sounds that much better than a CD coming from the head unit. But I'm fussy. I sold hi end hifi. I have great kit at home, speakers and headphones, I go to gigs all the time. I'm chasing musical reproduction that delivers the emotional response I get from a good gig.

I'm hoping a URC and the phone app will get me the usability I want.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

rain27 said:


> Well, some head units have a digital input.
> 
> I’m asking why you think a digital connection automatically means better sound.
> 
> The only advantage to using a digital connection is a reduction in noise, if there was any to begin with. The only other reason would be to choose one device’s internals over another, for whatever the reason.


The less stuff in the signal path the better. The helix Ultra (and probably the DSP.3) are true audiophile level quality pieces of equipment. They take a signal, process it, DA convert it and send it out to the amps. If they get an analogue signal then they have to AD it first. If that comes from a head unit it might have been AD then processed then DA then to the AD of the helix. 

The less you bugger around with the signal the better. If you can get a FLAC cd or master quality signal into the helix directly you will get a better SQ result. You don't have o use FLAC but it is true lossless compression that saves stacks of space. You can use raw digital files too but they are bigger.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Oh and I have a good installer and a good relationship with the AUS audiotech fischer distributor plus the forum. It's a steep learning curve even with all that help and even though I know a lot about audio. And on the forum people vary in their priorities.

But I now have a car system that is in the ballpark of my home system and I've heard stuff on albums that I've never heard before. Including stevie wonders songs in the key of life which I have listened to so many times.

Oh once you have a processor get a microphone and use that for tuning. The helix software does an excellent autotune to get you started.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

@ Sam Spade; 
Thanks for your thorough explanation! Very usefull and gives stuff to think about...
For now have a good night rest, I have to get going with my work.
Questions I may have I'll ask later...
Thanks again 👍


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Thats good to hear. I had a mic and (hard learning curve) measuring software before years ago, when building home speakers for hobby, but havent used it in a long time and did more with my ears, so I was still beginner at measuring.

If the Helix does it for you in autotune than thats awesome. Tuning by ear from there I am pretty good at, and enjoy...


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## ShastaMcNasty (Dec 10, 2017)

rton20s said:


> This is 100% factually inaccurate.


Curious... why do you say that? Don’t get me wrong, I know DSPs bring a whole host of functionality to the table. Perhaps I should have been a little more clear in my comment though. If you don’t need to worry about speaker placement (and therefore distance and/or reflections), can’t you do just about everything else with a solid head unit and a decent EQ? 

In a classic car we are usually working with less space, so if we get the sound we want without a DSP, there is a benefit to doing so. I used a McIntosh MX406 and 4-channel McIntosh amp (only) in my classic car and it sounded amazing. I just had to put a lot of effort in to speaker selection and placement (especially since the car left the factory without any speakers!). To achieve good sound stage I made sure the speakers had good off-axis response (I couldn’t get every speaker to point right at me) and that the distance to my ear was appropriate for the frequency range each speaker was responsible for. I already knew the head unit and amp would give me the sound signature I wanted... and it didn’t let me down. 

Do I think I could have received additional benefit from incorporating a DSP in to this build? Yes, of course I do. The point of my comment, however, was that it isn’t as big of a deal when you have a smaller environment to work with and you make the appropriate decisions elsewhere in your build.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

ShastaMcNasty, thats what I initially was concerned about, wouldnt an extra dsp sound less analogue and less to my taste... being aware that for the soundstage it has huge benefits. 

But it seems that the newer Helix sound very good, and I red some where it also uses BurrBrown dacs. 

So with that I lean more towards using a Dsp.3 now. 

Having those McIntosh amps u have and right drivers surely make a great sound, even without dsp.


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## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

For a 1 seat tune..

Unless your path lengths are identical between drivers and between L and R drivers to the listener position, the simple T/A that a DSP/headunit can provide will substantially improve your SQ. No matter the size of the cabin.

If it sounds great without T/A, it will sound orders of magnitude better with the cohesion that time alignment brings to the table before any EQ is performed.

IMO, more benefit than any “less analogue” concern is.


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## lankfordcodi (Apr 28, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> Whats cringey about wca?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Nothing I was just laughing because he wrote “(cringe)” in reference to the guys SPL build.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> For a 1 seat tune..
> 
> Unless your path lengths are identical between drivers and between L and R drivers to the listener position, the simple T/A that a DSP/headunit can provide will substantially improve your SQ. No matter the size of the cabin.
> 
> ...


Yeah I can remember that when I was more active in caraudio 15yrs ago that the dsp time alligned indeed made a huge difference!... 

But... it was only from the driverseat!...and I 50% drive around with a passenger. From there its crap right? I mean without dsp would maybe better.. 

Or could I make a setting for 2 seats, that would also be better than without dsp? 

I know most will think; buy the damn dsp man... but with accessoires its about a grand. So I rather ask a bit more before I make a hole in my wallet...


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

But, didnt the Italian go today to the installer??


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## SUPGOD1980 (Jun 4, 2020)

lankfordcodi said:


> Nothing I was just laughing because he wrote “(cringe)” in reference to the guys SPL build.


Its was a douche bag reponse considering where were at lol.


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## SUPGOD1980 (Jun 4, 2020)

Does anybody know where i can buy a helix/remote tune?
Ill be running two subs and 2-way front 2-way rear, what model do i need?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SUPGOD1980 said:


> Does anybody know where i can buy a helix/remote tune?
> Ill be running two subs and 2-way front 2-way rear, what model do i need?


Check the MSC America website for a dealer near you. If you dont have a dealer near you, i can help you out.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> But, didnt the Italian go today to the installer??


Unfortunately not. Steve sold his house this week and has been preoccupied with that. What I did do was to send him three different system diagrams after speaking with Mike.

My objective is to handle as much as possible through remote communication in order to minimize how many 5-hour trips I have to make. 

Steve is supposed to be back in on Monday so we'll see what feedback I get from him. I'm really hoping he's receptive to working long distance because I can't see another way to accomplish my objectives. 

I have also been narrowing down my list of components which should also help reduce the amount of time he has to spend educating me. Then there are the costs that some of us tend to overlook when we're busy thinking about all the cool, shiny new hardware we're going to buy. Specifically, sound deadening and wiring for starters. The first one alone can easily increase the cost of your original estimate by a factor of two to ten. 

So I'm using this time that he's away to be better prepared. Once we finally connect, I am sure that I will have to decide where I am willing to cut costs so the project doesn't clean me out. But I will need his assessment on "bang for the buck" value in different areas. I am pretty confident about hardware (except for signal processing) but the impact of labor costs are another matter altogether. I've always done my own installs but that won't be the case this time around.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

SUPGOD1980 said:


> Does anybody know where i can buy a helix/remote tune?
> Ill be running two subs and 2-way front 2-way rear, what model do i need?


@SkizeR is offering this service now!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

The Italian said:


> @SkizeR is offering this service now!


Probably not much longer. Been very busy as of late

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Opps, I guess I was writing this as your response was being posted...


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Oh okay, thanks for clarifying that. Last thing I want to do is to spread misinformation.


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## SUPGOD1980 (Jun 4, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> Check the MSC America website for a dealer near you. If you dont have a dealer near you, i can help you out.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


In hawaii so i doubt it but ill check tonight. thanks!


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## SUPGOD1980 (Jun 4, 2020)

The Italian said:


> @SkizeR is offering this service now!


thanks!


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

The Italian said:


> Unfortunately not. Steve sold his house this week and has been preoccupied with that. What I did do was to send him three different system diagrams after speaking with Mike.
> 
> My objective is to handle as much as possible through remote communication in order to minimize how many 5-hour trips I have to make.
> 
> ...


Yeah with 5 hour trips its indeed smarter to do some orienting work from home. 

Being wise on where to spend and where to cut some costs in this hobby is indeed very handy... and necessary, otherwise no more money.... 

Well the end result is what counts... and I am sure you will be happy then..


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> I get it, the dirac is a cool new thing that is helpful to those with little tuning experience, but the mini doesn't touch the helix in flexibility.


Very slightly wrong. The MiniDSP's biquads give the ultimate amount of flexibility, but it's way more complicated to go that route. The Helix software gui is more flexible and easier to use than the MiniDSP's gui software.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

opekone said:


> Thanks for offering some clarity. Why would eq related phase changes ever be desired?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


Because with dips and peaks in amplitude response you can also expect the phase to be out of whack, correcting the amplitude with IIR filters also corrects the phase. Sometimes we leave dips or peaks alone (unequalized) because they are caused by the room/car, and just won't respond to amplitude eq. This is where an IIR all pass filter can be used to get the different drivers to interact with each other in a way that negates the amplitude problem.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

SUPGOD1980 said:


> SQL is a made up term but it means a combination of SPL and SQ.


Actually, I believe it stands for "Sound Quality League" - MECA.
But people use it in the way you stated it.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ckirocz28 said:


> Very slightly wrong. The MiniDSP's biquads give the ultimate amount of flexibility, but it's way more complicated to go that route. The Helix software gui is more flexible and easier to use than the MiniDSP's gui software.


And ill also reply with thatvi completely disagree. A car audio DSP is much more than an EQ. Can the Minidsp take up 32 volts of input? Can the minidsp sum up to 4 of those said inputs and apply unique input eq and delay to each output? Can the minidsp do automatic source selection based on set and configured priorities? Can the minidsp link and unlink output channels to make adjustments, and when linked can it do them relatively? Can the minidsp accept usb, bluetooth, or multiple optical inputs? What about optical output? Does the minidsp have a built in signal analyzer to measure input signal to help configure and eq inputs? Does the minidsp have a center steering algorithm? Does the minidsp have "smart" tonality effects features such as bass enhancement or clarity expander? What about spacial effects like the stage expander? Can the minidsp EQ mono information separate from the uncorrelated information? Can the minidsp do what helix does with its virtual channels, essentially having a processor for your processor? 

The answer to all of these is, from my understanding, no. The only thing that the mini has on something like the ultra is price, and additional EQ capabilities while lacking some other EQ capabilities. People on this site have blinders on.. only seeing whats applicable to their usually basic needs/wants. Truth is, there is so much more to a truly flexible car audio dsp than what mini offers, which is fine. Its a specific product for specific situations. But time for this site to take off its blinders. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## ShastaMcNasty (Dec 10, 2017)

Don Camillo said:


> ShastaMcNasty, thats what I initially was concerned about, wouldnt an extra dsp sound less analogue and less to my taste... being aware that for the soundstage it has huge benefits.
> 
> But it seems that the newer Helix sound very good, and I red some where it also uses BurrBrown dacs.
> 
> ...


I’m right there with you but a well-tuned DSP with the right DAC will no doubt restore/preserve/improve the sound quality without making it sound less analog. The important thing is the tune... it’s all about the tune. 

The use of BurrBrown DACs is what initially drew me towards the Helix DSP. I have always enjoyed BurrBrown and ESS Pro... to my ears they have the most warmth while still maintaining balance throughout the frequency range, and they really bring that “Sounds like they’re right in front of me” element to the sound stage. When I say that I mean they REALLY bring that element to the sound stage (I have to point this out because there are DACs that will give you the same presence, but because they lack the warmth, they just don’t sound as realistic or authentic to me).

The McIntosh amps really are amazing. I had them powering Dynaudio Esotar speakers. It was the best combination I’ve used in the dozen or so builds I’ve done in my life. The only thing I wish I had done differently was the head unit. I could have traded out my McIntosh MX406 for an MX4000 (which has an external DAC). I held off because installing the head unit was such a PIA in that car and I didn’t want to deal with it again. It sounded great as is too... I had an Onkyo DP-X1A (which has dual ESS chips) for hi-res music and it really sounded amazing.

Just my $0.02 - go with the Helix, take your time tuning it, and you’ll be a very happy audiophile!


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> Yeah with 5 hour trips its indeed smarter to do some orienting work from home.
> 
> Being wise on where to spend and where to cut some costs in this hobby is indeed very handy... and necessary, otherwise no more money....
> 
> Well the end result is what counts... and I am sure you will be happy then..


Well, I have avoided bringing this up but ultimately, it's a compromise as with much of life. Most questions posted here are answered in very black and white terms, quickly followed by split camps where each side starts tossing granades at one another. 

A typical enthusiast has many decisions to make when designing any new system. Those decisions are rarely black and white. We all want the highest quality of everything but can rarely afford to pay for the absolute best of each component. 

So as I said, I will discuss these options with the person who will ultimately be working with me on setting up my system. The amount of money spent on a DSP, has to be weighed against every other dollar spent on things like sound deadening for example. In the end, I will have to make choices of where to splurge and where to save in order to achieve what I consider an acceptable sound system for what I'm willing to spend. I think that most of us fall into this category.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> And ill also reply with thatvi completely disagree. A car audio DSP is much more than an EQ. Can the Minidsp take up 32 volts of input? Can the minidsp sum up to 4 of those said inputs and apply unique input eq and delay to each output? Can the minidsp do automatic source selection based on set and configured priorities? Can the minidsp link and unlink output channels to make adjustments, and when linked can it do them relatively? Can the minidsp accept usb, bluetooth, or multiple optical inputs? What about optical output? Does the minidsp have a built in signal analyzer to measure input signal to help configure and eq inputs? Does the minidsp have a center steering algorithm? Does the minidsp have "smart" tonality effects features such as bass enhancement or clarity expander? What about spacial effects like the stage expander? Can the minidsp EQ mono information separate from the uncorrelated information? Can the minidsp do what helix does with its virtual channels, essentially having a processor for your processor?
> 
> The answer to all of these is, from my understanding, no. The only thing that the mini has on something like the ultra is price, and additional EQ capabilities while lacking some other EQ capabilities. People on this site have blinders on.. only seeing whats applicable to their usually basic needs/wants. Truth is, there is so much more to a truly flexible car audio dsp than what mini offers, which is fine. Its a specific product for specific situations. But time for this site to take off its blinders.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Chill man, I guess I should have stated that the MiniDSP's biquads ONLY give unlimited flexibility for eq and crossovers and nothing else.
While you are right about all the bells and whistles of the Helix being awesome, I do not include the rebranded "loudness" gimmicks among them (bass enhancement, clarity expander), I don't know about the stage expander, it sounds like a gimmick.
I also didn't know about the mono vs uncorrelated eq.
All the other features you listed are awesome though.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ckirocz28 said:


> Chill man, I guess I should have stated that the MiniDSP's biquads ONLY give unlimited flexibility for eq and crossovers and nothing else.
> While you are right about all the bells and whistles of the Helix being awesome, I do not include the rebranded "loudness" gimmicks among them (bass enhancement, clarity expander), I don't know about the stage expander, it sounds like a gimmick.
> I also didn't know about the mono vs uncorrelated eq.
> All the other features you listed are awesome though.


I wasnt really attacking the point you made, but found it as an opportunity to let the people of this forum know that these is more to a car audio dsp than the eq, signal delay, and crossovers. Its something that I notice people tend to forget. "Let me get the budget brands dsp since its all just eq and crossovers".. plot twist, it can't even work with most oem systems these days. I see this situation and get messages about it pretty often. 

The bass restoration feature is nice, and adjusts low end depending on volume. The stage expander feature is actually based on something similar to one of Patrick Batemans threads from years ago. It injects out of phase or partially out of phase or out of time (I'm not really sure tbh) into the opposite side signal. It works a little bit for standard 1 seat cars. Works well when using their center channel setup. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> I wasnt really attacking the point you made, but found it as an opportunity to let the people of this forum know that these is more to a car audio dsp than the eq, signal delay, and crossovers. Its something that I notice people tend to forget. "Let me get the budget brands dsp since its all just eq and crossovers".. plot twist, it can't even work with most oem systems these days. I see this situation and get messages about it pretty often.
> 
> The bass restoration feature is nice, and adjusts low end depending on volume. The stage expander feature is actually based on something similar to one of Patrick Batemans threads from years ago. It injects out of phase or partially out of phase or out of time (I'm not really sure tbh) into the opposite side signal. It works a little bit for standard 1 seat cars. Works well when using their center channel setup.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


You really do come off like a total jerk sometimes, then turn around and seem totally reasonable, like you said in one of the earlier posts.
But, yeah the MiniDSP is no competition for the Helix at all, just more flexible in the eq and xover through the use of biquads. I really wish MiniDSP would do the relative and static linking with gains and such, but it might be harder to implement than it sounds. That feature is just one of the outstanding things the Helix does.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

The Italian said:


> Well, I have avoided bringing this up but ultimately, it's a compromise as with much of life. Most questions posted here are answered in very black and white terms, quickly followed by split camps where each side starts tossing granades at one another.
> 
> A typical enthusiast has many decisions to make when designing any new system. Those decisions are rarely black and white. We all want the highest quality of everything but can rarely afford to pay for the absolute best of each component.
> 
> So as I said, I will discuss these options with the person who will ultimately be working with me on setting up my system. The amount of money spent on a DSP, has to be weighed against every other dollar spent on things like sound deadening for example. In the end, I will have to make choices of where to splurge and where to save in order to achieve what I consider an acceptable sound system for what I'm willing to spend. I think that most of us fall into this category.


I agree that diyma has become very black and white, full of must-dos, never-dos, and all the other absolutes. It kind of takes the fun out of it. 

In your situation, I'd probably go with your installer's choice of dsp assuming it's within grasp and he's the one that's going to tune your stereo (unless he's willing to learn new software, which most won't want to mess with). Try to have fun with it. 

There are lots of dsps with lots of features, many you may or may not need or want. If someone can't enjoy music in their car with more basic dsps these days, there's something else wrong, in my opinion. People have done very well with basic dsp setups, assuming they don't introduce something that makes everything worse (like noise).

This is a hobby for me, as I don't do car audio for a living. I tend to try things not universally praised for reasons of my own. For example, laptop tuning isn't fun for me.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> The stage expander feature is actually based on something similar to one of Patrick Batemans threads from years ago. It injects out of phase or partially out of phase or out of time (I'm not really sure tbh) into the opposite side signal.


Back in the old days, we'd just wire a tweeter out of phase, but then that was before dsp's and time alignment. Back when everything staging related was done by physically changing the location of speakers, or using resistors or large coils of speaker wire to get the tiniest amount of delay.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

rain27 said:


> For example, laptop tuning isn't fun for me.


It's not fun for anyone, but the end result is worth the time and effort.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

ckirocz28 said:


> It's not fun for anyone, but the end result is worth the time and effort.


Yeah, but there are options that don’t require a computer. Let’s go Helix...app tuning!


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

rain27 said:


> Yeah, but there are options that don’t require a computer. Let’s go Helix...app tuning!


Honestly, I've tuned via an app (Rockford DSR-1) and via a laptop (Helix) - and the laptop tuning is _so_ much easier... Having more screen real-estate and even a real keyboard can make tuning a lot easier than trying to do it from a phone. 

A phone may be nice for a quick adjustment, but not for full tuning. 

The best of both worlds is a laptop that can fold into a tablet (I use a Lenovo Yoga 3 Pro and love it).


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

jtrosky said:


> Honestly, I've tuned via an app (Rockford DSR-1) and via a laptop (Helix) - and the laptop tuning is _so_ much easier... Having more screen real-estate and even a real keyboard can make tuning a lot easier than trying to do it from a phone.
> 
> A phone may be nice for a quick adjustment, but not for full tuning.
> 
> The best of both worlds is a laptop that can fold into a tablet (I use a Lenovo Yoga 3 Pro and love it).


iPads are nice for this. Does the Helix software respond to touch controls or mouse only with a convertible laptop?


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

rain27 said:


> iPads are nice for this. Does the Helix software respond to touch controls or mouse only with a convertible laptop?


You can use touch controls. I actually use my Yoga 3 Pro in "tablet" mode when I'm in the car tuning. All done via touch-screen. 

However, I also do a lot of my EQ work in the house after I take measurements - on my home PC. I have my tune and REW files setup on a Google Drive and take measurements in the car and then do EQ work using REW on my home PC for the most part. 

But yeah, the Helix software works fine with touch controls.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Yeah, cant imagine doing any serious tuning with an app. I have, but cannot picture it being intuitive or viable for anyone who wants to do the best job possible for what they have.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

jtrosky said:


> You can use touch controls. I actually use my Yoga 3 Pro in "tablet" mode when I'm in the car tuning. All done via touch-screen.
> 
> However, I also do a lot of my EQ work in the house after I take measurements - on my home PC. I have my tune and REW files setup on a Google Drive and take measurements in the car and then do EQ work using REW on my home PC for the most part.
> 
> But yeah, the Helix software works fine with touch controls.


It still needs hard wiring to the Helix, correct?


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

Unless you have the wifi module for the helix....yes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

I love this topic, I love this thread...
But it's been 8 pages and just don't feel right. We're discussing this topic in the same way that people who know nothing about subwoofers discuss subs:
"Talk to a professional installer... and whatever THEY like... yeah. Do that."
That's not how discussions work on a forum with DIY in it's NAME! 

_(And I in no way want to discount SkizeR's post here, because he's put the most objective comparison together to share with us the best of his experience, and personally I think it's a great contribution)_

I think SkizeR came the closest - but isn't there some way to make this more objective? Comparable?
Analogy:
...subs have T/S specs. Enclosure alignments. Advantages and disadvantages. Applications and failures. They CAN be compared.

In the same way...
DSPs have channels. Input channels, output channels. Can you label them?
DSPs have mixers. Phase? L-R? Outputs back to inputs? Routing?
DSPs have equalizers. 1/3 octave? Parametric? Both?
DSPs have crossovers. Selectable slope? Type? Phase? All pass?
DSPs have features. Auto-tuning (DIRAC)? 5.1 from stereo? Proprietary filtering or special Codecs as Mosconi puts it?
DSPs have RTAs... well actually lots don't. How much/good are the mics?
DSPs have dash controls... knobs? Presets? Sub gain? Master volume? Display?
These are all pretty objective things, you could put in a chart, right?

Then - I've seen some limitations in DSPs based in the order that their processing occurs. I found that I couldn't create an L-(R+L) or R-(R+L) for rear because the mixer section was limited and was first, on the miniDSP. I could flip phase on channels, but then couldn't mix it after. I'm sure there's other limitations if you wished to do different processing... if the crossover or EQ was after the mixer, for example.

For those kind of considerations, I've seen DSP architectures represented by block diagrams, maybe with arrows leading back for any recursive features. To me, that would be logical and you'd be able to see at a glance what they do (well - at least for the diagrams that wouldn't be complicated by "6 of the 8 channels can do this, and 2 of the 8 channels work different...").

And sure, this nebulous "quality" aspect can still exist just like it does on every other thread, but realistically quality is mostly objective too when you remove the religious faith in brand names...
Why is "bang for the buck" out of the question to discuss?

I'm just surprised "go do whatever some guy you don't know at some shop says" is even a thing that someone says, on a DIY forum. And that's coming from a guy retired from managing a real shop and pro installing.

There's just got to be a better way to compare these.
But thanks, SkizeR for the one post in here that got pretty close.


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

And speaking of SkizeR...



SkizeR said:


> ...But looking for sales here is not worth the time/effort. This place is FULL of people who want to spend as little as possible...
> I'm here because i have some weird, ****ed up addiction and cant help myself.
> 
> ...If it were money i was after, i'd have had a mod ban me years ago so i can actually get back to work... ... places where people have real money to throw around. ...we were landing jobs from guys that were having their drivers drop the cars off for 30k+ in upgrades regularly...


To be fair - there's PLENTY of people on this forum who are also lifelong passionate car audio addicts.
It's ironic that you'd rant against them - part of your rant is that you ARE one. Yes? 

I know that I got into the industry as a direct line from my passion about car audio... which led me to learn everything I could... led me to WANT to install it myself (how else do you KNOW it's done right?)... led me to become an installer... led me to become a manager of a large shop... led me to some engineering work for some small brands that catered directly to the DIY crowd that I loved... 10 years at CES, 4 years at SEMA... Had our fabricators trained by Bryan Schmidt of Mobile Solutions... Pro athlete installs... SPL comps for the shop... SQ installs for the CEO types.... Hosted a SQ seminar by Scott Buwalda himself... Worked with Dan Wiggins back in the XBL^2 days, got an invite to David Clark's DLC labs for a tour, a meet, and to have my prototype subs DUMAX'ed in person...
Here I am years retired from the industry, and STILL here purely as a hobby gone crazy. Passion. Addiction.

It's no source of pride to hand money over to someone else. Anyone can write a check or hand a credit card over.
You don't get pride from that - you can't point to your install and say "that's me". No matter what you buy, you can't say "I did that".
It's not far off from the difference of a trust fund kid vs someone who works for their money. You either understand pride and labor, or you don't.

I bet you understand that. I bet you have pictures of your installs you've done for clients - because you have pride in that work. That's the addiction.

That's why people are here. To learn. To do it themselves. We're all the same, just different points on the experience spectrum. Roots. It feels good to give back and help the young 'uns learn. Right?
There's a reason this forum is called "DIY Mobile Audio." It's right there in the URL.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

geolemon said:


> And speaking of SkizeR...
> 
> 
> To be fair - there's PLENTY of people on this forum who are also lifelong passionate car audio addicts.
> ...


Those parts of his post are actually quite funny.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

geolemon said:


> And speaking of SkizeR...
> 
> 
> To be fair - there's PLENTY of people on this forum who are also lifelong passionate car audio addicts.
> ...


I dont see how any of this has to do with the post you quoted and its context.. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> I dont see how any of this has to do with the post you quoted and its context..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


He quoted you. Those parts that he quoted were funny.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ckirocz28 said:


> He quoted you. Those parts that he quoted were funny.


Funny or not, its the truth. If I wanted to make ghe most money by being on the internet I certainly wouldn't be on diyma, the website thats founded on spending as little money as possible lol

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> I dont see how any of this has to do with the post you quoted and its context..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Geolemon's post, #191.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> Funny or not, its the truth. If I wanted to make ghe most money by being on the internet I certainly wouldn't be on diyma, the website thats founded on spending as little money as possible lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Truth or not, that's funny. Apparently we all have the same addiction.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> Funny or not, its the truth. If I wanted to make ghe most money by being on the internet I certainly wouldn't be on diyma, the website thats founded on spending as little money as possible lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


By the way, step over here








Striking the balance between reducing road noise and...


Hello all. I am new to this forum but, I have done a lot of reading. (Waiting for TSTF's 2nd round of testing of various sound deadening products.) This may come across as a completely stupid question and contradictory in nature. However, I was curious if anyone on this forum has tried to...




www.diymobileaudio.com




and tell that guy what he needs to buy from you.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ckirocz28 said:


> By the way, step over here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw it. Didn't bother since you cant block one noise and let another in lol. Also, we don't sell a noise barrier. Pointless since barriers are mass based. Heaviest barrier is the best. Serves no interest to me. I'd rather develop something that performs instead of just making the heaviest thing

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ckirocz28 said:


> Truth or not, that's funny. Apparently we all have the same addiction.


Yup, which is also why I'm here. I dont even like it. Its just habit at this point. One that needs to be broken

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

geolemon said:


> And speaking of SkizeR...
> 
> 
> To be fair - there's PLENTY of people on this forum who are also lifelong passionate car audio addicts.
> ...


Not sure if you've been on diyma for a while, but it's not as much diy as it once was...even people that used to diy are paying someone else. And OP already mentioned he's going to a shop to have his stuff installed. So tell the guy what dsp is best, lol. Your experience should serve the diy community well though.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

If I look at my history of being a caraudio enthusiast from 2 decades ago where I had periods of switching to homeaudio and both simultane (like recently)... (I havent been on diyma for years) I certainly agree with Geolemons mentioning pride and having fun of building your own install...!! 

When I compare looking at others' installs 15+ yrs ago on internet (okay I was also younger) to get ideas and learn from it for your own install and compare it with searching for better components for my homeaudio stuff... I have to admit in homeaudio I didnt enjoy -searching- as much as with caraudio... where I could look for hours... 

But I think the caraudio hobby became booming since then, with more and more specialists, (having lots of super installs), who got their own shops... (with experience).

Meanwhile our lives have become much more busy!... its so hectic!
I cant enjoy it as much as 15-25 yrs ago, when I had more time.. 

So I can understand having it installed by someone else (with more experience) like op; the Italian choose to do.... also bc we have less time.

And, it can be really frustrating when you have put in a lot of time (and money) building, and then starting over again after a few months (like I see here too on some threads) because you werent happy enough with the sound yet.... but next time it should sound wayyy better... 

Tbh its a great hobby, but at the same time its absurd and frustrating as well... because its never good enough... when u go for pure SQ... (This I often mention about my homehifi hobby)...

So you get more pride, and save more money with diy (also very important; often our budgets are limited)... 
But when u have the money and not much time (or experience or skills) its certainly wise to have it done by a specialist... (and a specialist isnt 'some guy' but someone you choose, and trust).

And op; The Italian is combining both; searching himself (to know what he wants, choosing wisely for products and where to spend/save) and having it installed by a specialist he choose... to get it right this time...!
👍


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I really can't imagine ever being happy with someone else tuning my system. Everyone hears differently and has different preferences. If I paid someone to tune my car, I can _guarantee_ that I would be modifying the tune within days - or even hours anyway, to customize it to _my_ hearing and _my_ preferences. This is why I am learning to tune on my own - I want to be able to set everything up just the way _I_ like it - and be able to re-tune it after I upgrade speakers or amps (for example). Not to mention that I enjoy it and it's turned into a full-blown hobby. 

Like already mentioned above, there is also a huge sense of "accomplishment" when you do your own install and tuning. Just as a for-example, I could have had Skiezer make me a set of speaker baffles when I switched dash speakers, but I wanted to do it myself - mainly so I learned how to do it. Hell, I can now make my own custom speaker baffles for any speakers out of 98 cent Walmart cutting boards in less than 30 minutes using only a dremel.

Different strokes for different folks. Some people just want someone else ot do it and be done with it. Others (like me) enjoy the learning and build/tune process as much as the end result.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Yeah finetuning is also what I probably would do if I had it done, also bc I like it (with passive crossovers) and use/trust my own ears...

Learning to tune can take a while (as with passive crossovers and building loudspeakers; the more you know, the more you know you didnt knew much) thats also whats holding me back a bit with buying a dsp. 
But I see other major benefits so I probably will buy one....


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Gents, I still don't know how to do multiple quotes so I will just respond here. I appreciate the spirit of DIY, believe me it's something I've always enjoyed! I have another passion which is horology. In that field, my hobby actually led to the start of another business for me and I am very fortunate to be able to earn a living, in part, by making my own products. 

Unfortunately, I cannot physically do my own installs in car audio. It's one thing to work with other manufacturers from all over the world and to design and even build my own watches on a workbench. It's another altogether to strip down the interior of a car. So, as much personal enjoyment as doing this myself bring give me, I have to put it in the hands of others this time around. 

I do think that I will probably tweak the system over time, primarily because it involves something I can do by moving switches or using software. But watching someone else do the initial set up will be a great experience for me. Keep in mind that when I did my own systems, we were pretty barbaric and used electronic components to physically alter what can now be done with software.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

I'm going to ask something and I hope that some of the more hard-core proponents can take a step back and give this some thought before completely disregarding the notion or getting emotional. 

Not that far back in car audio, the only objective was to reproduce music as purely as possible. It was about taking clean, unmolested low level signals and then amplifying them while introducing as little distortion as humanly possible. 

Forget speakers for a moment, this discussion has been about manipulating electronic signals. Yes, we did attach components (mainly capacitors) to speakers but that was just a rudimentary method to limit which frequencies reached which speakers. Then, crossovers allowed us to do that remotely. We even had what we referred to as "active crossovers" which gave us the ability to make adjustments without having to switch out components physically. 

But the objective was always to avoid introducing any sources of noise. I realize that the term "SQ" is used as a catch all for "good sound" but many modern discussions don't really include a clear definition of the term. They also skip directly to equipment recommendations without knowing if the understanding of the goal is a mutual one between the OP and the "experts". 

I think it's important to find common ground first and I'm well aware that my initial question was about products and not about theory. This discussion has taken a turn towards the "functionality" of different units and that's fine; I've thoroughly enjoyed it. But after talking a step back, I want to come back to the heart of the matter...for me at least. 

So if you would indulge my caveman brain for a moment, talk to me about the quality of the electronic signals...at least for a moment...then we can get back to hashing it out. A DSP can introduce distortion, no? I realize that it brings great benefits along as well. In fact, I readily admit that I don't even know all the benefits. 

But, keeping it simple for an old guy. You are able to time correct, right? You are able to control frequencies much more precisely than we were ever able to, correct? But from the strictly narrow perspective of signal purity, what does it do and how much much different are the results from one unit to another? Also, how often do you need to change your system set-up? If this has to be done frequently, then of course, using a DSP with a great interface is essential. But again, once you install your components and adjust it to perform as well as possible within an automobile environment, what is going happen that will require further changes? 

Modern cars, particularly some of the upper end sports cars, have a myriad of adjustments the driver can make. You know what I mean; throttle response, suspension stiffness, gear change timing, spoiler position, even silly things like the exhaust note, etc. But I'll be honest, I typically set up a car the way I like it and with a few exceptions, I just drive. The changes that I do make are limited to about 3 different driving modes. Regardless of the dozens of combinations available, it's never been more than 3 modes that I've already predetermined. 

So, I'll stop boring you now and say that I have found this thread very helpful. I want to thank you for that and please know that I'm not arguing one way or another! I'm just here to learn and to exchange ideas with fellow enthusiasts.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

The Italian said:


> ...
> I think it's important to find common ground first and I'm well aware that my initial question was about products and not about theory. This discussion has taken a turn towards the "functionality" of different units and that's fine; I've thoroughly enjoyed it. But after talking a step back, I want to come back to the heart of the matter...for me at least.
> 
> So if you would indulge my caveman brain for a moment, talk to me about the quality of the electronic signals...at least for a moment...then we can get back to hashing it out. A DSP can introduce distortion, no? I realize that it brings great benefits along as well. In fact, I readily admit that I don't even know all the benefits.
> ...


I recall that some talk about understanding the theory was discussed in posts in the ~25-45 range?




The Italian said:


> ...
> But, keeping it simple for an old guy. You are able to time correct, right? You are able to control frequencies much more precisely than we were ever able to, correct? But from the strictly narrow perspective of signal purity, what does it do and how much much different are the results from one unit to another? ...
> 
> """


No... One does not "control frequencies"...

Generally one can alter:
1) Amplitude
2) Phase
And also:
3) Time

General "Time alignment" (TA), is #3.
Amplitude (#1) if where most of the time is spent.

Group delay and impulse response are more nuanced examples.

But only ~5 of all the home speakers are designedly with impulse response in mind.
And using DIRAC was unfair.


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## K-pop sucks (May 28, 2018)

The best DSP for the money has to be Minidsp dirac live. It is the home audio benchmark, don't see why it wouldn't be the same in car audio.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Holmz said:


> I recall that some talk about understanding the theory was discussed in posts in the ~25-45 range?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, using the term of controlling frequencies was not correct. Just so I'm clear though; a DSP does what we used to do in terms of limiting which frequencies go to each speaker, right? Just real basic question about keeping low frequencies out of the tweeter leads, for example. Thanks!


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

For the "Cross Over" (XO), then yes.

And DIRAC can make a speaker which has not been designed with impulse response in mind, have a better impulse response.

And then physical room treatments would then be analogous with REW and altering amplitude across the range to compensate for the listening space.
In a car, pillows on windows don't really work... so this is a very common thing to also affect the frequency response, which is more difficult in analogue with a crossover.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

K-pop sucks said:


> The best DSP for the money has to be Minidsp dirac live. It is the home audio benchmark, don't see why it wouldn't be the same in car audio.


Why?

What can back up the statement? And which MiniDSP in particular?


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## K-pop sucks (May 28, 2018)

Holmz said:


> Why?
> 
> What can back up the statement? And which MiniDSP in particular?


Ones with Dirac live licenses. Why you ask? Because what other DSP in the automotive realm can you do a dozen mic measurements by yourself and get a equalized curve based on the Harman curve in 15 minutes or less that's better than most shop tunes? Work smarter, not harder!


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Not to question the auto-dsp option. Its certainly nice to have... But I can remember a friend of mine who was using one of the first Deqx processors yrs ago for home speakers, and the auto-tune option was giving an "okay" sound, but he had to really tweak it further to get it right... 
I can imagine this is the case with the autotune of the dsp too... (though maybe not that much) so I guess u still have to tune it too, right?


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## K-pop sucks (May 28, 2018)

Don Camillo said:


> Not to question the auto-dsp option. Its certainly nice to have... But I can remember a friend of mine who was using one of the first Deqx processors yrs ago for home speakers, and the auto-tune option was giving an "okay" sound, but he had to really tweak it further to get it right...
> I can imagine this is the case with the autotune of the dsp too... (though maybe not that much) so I guess u still have to tune it too, right?


Sure, you can't get a 100% perfect autotune. But you get 90% of the way there and have a solid base to start dialing in.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

K-pop sucks said:


> Ones with Dirac live licenses. Why you ask? Because what other DSP in the automotive realm can you do a dozen mic measurements by yourself and get a equalized curve based on the Harman curve in 15 minutes or less that's better than most shop tunes? Work smarter, not harder!


The worst part about the Helix is the awful software interface and what is involved in punching in EQ results from REW. It's like the people who designed it have never used REW. Although it's not the most intuitive, at least in the DSP408 you can tab between the EQ channels so you can enter all the fequencies, then all the Q's, then all the db's. My keystrokes look like:


> 40 [tab] 57 [tab] 92 [tab] 124 [tab] 131
> .4 [tab] 5 [tab] 5 [tab] 4.6 [tab] .8
> -7.6 [tab] -5 [tab] 4 [tab] -8.4 [tab] -2.9


In the Helix the best way I've found is to:


> 40 [tab] 1.2 [tab] 4.9 [shift+tab] [shift+tab] [shift+tab] [up arrow]


Come on Helix. And when you tab to the db and you want 1.2 and you enter 1 IT ****ING DESELECTS THE REST SO YOU HAVE TO MANUALLY GO SELECT THE .00 AND ENTER THE ****ING 2?????? And it does this for the Q as well?!>!?! Like holy **** how is this real. So the real entry actually goes like:



> 40 [tab] 1 *[shift + right arrow](x2) *2 [tab] 4 *[shift + right arrow](x2) *9 [shift+tab] [shift+tab] [shift+tab] [up arrow]


All to enter 3 ****ing values for one channel of my EQ. Of which I might have what? 60? 80? Like come on that's awful.

Or how about when you're in the EQ and entering information you've found the one magical text box in the - clearly designed for ipad software - which deactivates all of the keyboard shortcuts. And no amount of tabbing will resolve this. You have to click on a button in the interface. Looooooord allll mighty.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

opekone said:


> The worst part about the Helix is the awful software interface and what is involved in punching in EQ results from REW. It's like the people who designed it have never used REW. Although it's not the most intuitive, at least in the DSP408 you can tab between the EQ channels so you can enter all the fequencies, then all the Q's, then all the db's. My keystrokes look like:
> 
> 
> In the Helix the best way I've found is to:
> ...


FYI - you can export the EQ values into a file from REW and then import them all into the Helix with a single keystroke ("R" key).


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

jtrosky said:


> FYI - you can export the EQ values into a file from REW and then import them all into the Helix with a single keystroke ("R" key).


Well that simplifies things quite a bit. I am still beyond frustrated that I have to use a trackpad and slide a bar to adjust everything except for crossover frequency including time alignment? Am I supposed to create a .csv and import that as well?

Or are you going to tell me that I can enter numbers on the "time" screen.... brb. Results are sliders and more sliders. For a second I had high hopes.


For anyone reading who is as dumb as me you press R while you have the ATF/Helix app focused then simply go to File -> export -> export filter as text:


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> Well at least the price is awesome. But pure soundwise I am very curious if it is in the same league as the Helix Dsp.3.
> As I may only gonna use the dsp for the sub, to get it up front, (or maybe with the 6.5 in doors... to try what difference it will make with and without dsp, soundwise) it will save some money compared to the Helix.
> 
> Does anybody had both units??


I dont understand why you wouldnt run all your speakers off the DSP?


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> I tried it with a Shanling Dap with Coax to the headunit and it was pretty dissapointing. The cd player sounded much better. Maybe bc of the BurrBrown pcm1704 dacs inside. Although arent via coax the same dacs used? Then I guess its the player.
> I didnt try SPDIF, I dont think it has one. It does have digital in and out.


What kind of files are on the shanling dap? If they arent lossless such as flac that could be the problem. Im assuming you sent a digital signal from the shanling not an analogue?

SPDIF is *S/PDIF* (*Sony/Philips Digital Interface*) its just a standard format for digital signals that can be used. via coax and optical toslink


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> Ahhh okay I thought it was a Dodge 😊
> 
> Thanks for the tip!
> I tried it with a Shanling Dap with Coax to the headunit and it was pretty dissapointing. The cd player sounded much better. Maybe bc of the BurrBrown pcm1704 dacs inside. Although arent via coax the same dacs used? Then I guess its the player.
> ...


If you have a dap with a digital out that matches the head unit digital input that will work. But experiment. Compare the dap straight into the dsp and compare


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> Yeah I can remember that when I was more active in caraudio 15yrs ago that the dsp time alligned indeed made a huge difference!...
> 
> But... it was only from the driverseat!...and I 50% drive around with a passenger. From there its crap right? I mean without dsp would maybe better..
> 
> ...


The ultra will do a solid soundstage for both people in a two seat tune. Apparently. I havent got that far yet


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> And ill also reply with thatvi completely disagree. A car audio DSP is much more than an EQ. Can the Minidsp take up 32 volts of input? Can the minidsp sum up to 4 of those said inputs and apply unique input eq and delay to each output? Can the minidsp do automatic source selection based on set and configured priorities? Can the minidsp link and unlink output channels to make adjustments, and when linked can it do them relatively? Can the minidsp accept usb, bluetooth, or multiple optical inputs? What about optical output? Does the minidsp have a built in signal analyzer to measure input signal to help configure and eq inputs? Does the minidsp have a center steering algorithm? Does the minidsp have "smart" tonality effects features such as bass enhancement or clarity expander? What about spacial effects like the stage expander? Can the minidsp EQ mono information separate from the uncorrelated information? Can the minidsp do what helix does with its virtual channels, essentially having a processor for your processor?
> 
> The answer to all of these is, from my understanding, no. The only thing that the mini has on something like the ultra is price, and additional EQ capabilities while lacking some other EQ capabilities. People on this site have blinders on.. only seeing whats applicable to their usually basic needs/wants. Truth is, there is so much more to a truly flexible car audio dsp than what mini offers, which is fine. Its a specific product for specific situations. But time for this site to take off its blinders.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


SkizeR i was already happy with my helix ultra cos of its flrexibility, ease of use, powerful features and awesome SQ. But i was a little concerned that the top minidsp did FIR and IIR and that might bite me in the future that my helix is just IIR.. But this post of yours has comforted me. so thanks for stopping me second guessing myself.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> Yup, which is also why I'm here. I dont even like it. Its just habit at this point. One that needs to be broken
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Pleasy stay i learn so much from you


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> I dont understand why you wouldnt run all your speakers off the DSP?


Well at that time my only reference of the sound of DSP's was all the processing units I heard from the last decades where we went to dozens of High End shows (homehifi) where literally not a single digital processor (also room correction units like Lyngdorf, and DEQX) gave a more analogue and pure sound than without the unit...
It DID give a more fluid and right sound, like bass who was more tight, (because the room was causing trouble)... but it wasnt pure and real... like some pricy high end sets can sound. Btw more pricey isnt necessary better. I heard 10k sets that were suprisingly musical, and I heard 100k sets that were dissapointing. Its all a matter of the right balance!... and who made the match and setup. (Still talking homeaudio)...

It seems that the Helix could be the unit that doesnt take away the realness... like other cheap processors do. So I thought; have the 2way passive, and the sub corrected. 

I know right imaging and TA makes all the difference!... but I enjoy "real, natural, analogue" sound more than corrected with missing musicality...

So I want to listen to some caraudio sets in my country this summer... and see what a good dsp does.
Or only use it on the sub 😊


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> What kind of files are on the shanling dap? If they arent lossless such as flac that could be the problem. Im assuming you sent a digital signal from the shanling not an analogue?
> 
> SPDIF is *S/PDIF* (*Sony/Philips Digital Interface*) its just a standard format for digital signals that can be used. via coax and optical toslink


They were Flac and High Res


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> If you have a dap with a digital out that matches the head unit digital input that will work. But experiment. Compare the dap straight into the dsp and compare


It was the cheapest Shanling, the M0. It was via headphones out and coax, not digital unfortunately.... So that could be why... 
I guess I have to look for one with digital out!... Thanks I'll look into that. 👍


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> The ultra will do a solid soundstage for both people in a two seat tune. Apparently. I havent got that far yet


Ah good to hear... 
But only the Ultra? Thats way above my budget, perhaps in my daily driver some day, but in this one... 
So I was hoping the DSP3 could do it too...


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> Well at that time my only reference of the sound of DSP's was all the processing units I heard from the last decades where we went to dozens of High End shows (homehifi) where literally not a single digital processor (also room correction units like Lyngdorf, and DEQX) gave a more analogue and pure sound than without the unit...
> It DID give a more fluid and right sound, like bass who was more tight, (because the room was causing trouble)... but it wasnt pure and real... like some pricy high end sets can sound. Btw more pricey isnt necessary better. I heard 10k sets that were suprisingly musical, and I heard 100k sets that were dissapointing. Its all a matter of the right balance!... and who made the match and setup. (Still talking homeaudio)...
> 
> It seems that the Helix could be the unit that doesnt take away the realness... like other cheap processors do. So I thought; have the 2way passive, and the sub corrected.
> ...


Ok think of it like this. Head units are now pretty much obsolete. You can run the best analogue signal like your nak cd into a dsp and it will digitise it. It then does the digital signal processing. Then the dsp takes the processed signal (and thats really important) and then acts as a da converter and a preamp. From my limited experince with dsps the helix is not only an awesome dsp it is an awesome dac and preamp. That gets you the best sound quality. Amazing detail that sounds natural. Lets go back to the front end. The head unit is still useful for radio handsfree phone and playing that cd you havent ripped. But the head unit is no longer the centre of the system. The dsp is. So get the best digital signal you can to the dsp and let it do its work using a dap or phone or tablet or maybe you can do it with android auto and a hard drive . im a beginner with dsps. But my $7k of hertz speakers and amps and subs sound so much better now with an ultra. Ive listened to a lot of great hifi gear and sold it, headphones and gigs. The ultra is unbelievable. And im told by people i trust the DSP.3 I would have been really happy too. But the ultra gets me better sound quality and if i ever run active i won't need a new dsp.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> They were Flac and High Res


My A&K DAP sounds ok through my head unit aux. Practically identical to the same cd. But converting its usb digital into spdif coax and putting that into the digital input into the ultra sounds so much better. Its just not as easy to control as a head unit. The URC and phone app should help once i get it up and running. And im waiting on a USB HEC module to run usb digital straight into the ultra


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> Ah good to hear...
> But only the Ultra? Thats way above my budget, perhaps in my daily driver some day, but in this one...
> So I was hoping the DSP3 could do it too...


I could research it but i think the ultra might be the only one. But the DSP.3 uses the same modern architecture as the ultra so it might. Someone here must know


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> It was the cheapest Shanling, the M0. It was via headphones out and coax, not digital unfortunately.... So that could be why...
> I guess I have to look for one with digital out!... Thanks I'll look into that. 👍


So the nak cd player beats the entry level shanling dap. That's not a surprise? But if the shanling has a digital output in coax optical or usb you can run it straight into a dsp and it should work well and sould great (thats my best guess) so i wouldnt buy a new dap till got a dsp and id tested it.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> Ah good to hear...
> But only the Ultra? Thats way above my budget, perhaps in my daily driver some day, but in this one...
> So I was hoping the DSP3 could do it too...


Oh yes the ultra is expensive. In OZ the DSP.3 is $1k plus the HEC USB and WIFI controller $300 each and the URC controller $100 so $1700. Ultra is $2300 plus $700 of components thats 3K. So ultra is a bit less than double for me. Its probably all 25% more expensive now as the exchange rate has changed. I know how awesome the ultra is but i cant tell you how much better it sounds than the DSP.3 im sure the DSP.3 is excellent and good value.

Im pretty sure if I'd got the DSP.3 I'd be raving about it. And at AU$1K its a bargain. But id still need the $700 of extras


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> Oh yes the ultra is expensive. In OZ the DSP.3 is $1k plus the HEC USB and WIFI controller $300 each and the URC controller $100 so $1700. Ultra is $2300 plus $700 of components thats 3K. So ultra is a bit less than double for me. Its probably all 25% more expensive now as the exchange rate has changed. I know how awesome the ultra is but i cant tell you how much better it sounds than the DSP.3 im sure the DSP.3 is excellent and good value.
> 
> Im pretty sure if I'd got the DSP.3 I'd be raving about it. And at AU$1K its a bargain. But id still need the $700 of extras


Yeah the extras make it expensive. 
Woww I thought u had a 7k speakerset in Dollars, but OZ is less, yet still a pricey system! 

I wasnt too surprised the Nak would beat an entry Dap, the CD700II was in our country 2300,- Euros (just cd, dac and preamp, no amp inside)
I've read some ppl didnt like it; too dull sounding... well I can say its not! With good speakers and the xo tuned right, its great and analogue sounding. I love it, especially the old look for the classic car...
I has good BurrBrown 1704 Dacs inside. I just read that the Dsp3 uses the same AKM Dacs as the Ultra.
So thats great! 
And with your suggestion of using a good Dap via SPDIF to Dsp then its really something to look forward too!
Thanks!!👍
I am curious how a good tuned Helix sounds. (Despite some setting issues I red above, which are partly solved). I'll share my thoughts here...


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

From the last page of entries, it sounds like there is a lot more going on to achieving this modern level of sound than just the DSP. And that makes sense, of course. 

In terms of the media sources, I plan on using FM radio (20%) and USB flash drives (80%). This car has a CD player but I don't use it. The OEM system can play compressed files (but not lossless) through the existing USB ports. From what I've read, it looks like you can feed FLAC files to even the most modest Helix DSP but you need either the Bluetooth or the USB interfaces, although I could be wrong.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Sam Spade said:


> SkizeR i was already happy with my helix ultra cos of its flrexibility, ease of use, powerful features and awesome SQ. But i was a little concerned that the top minidsp did FIR and IIR and that might bite me in the future that my helix is just IIR.. But this post of yours has comforted me. so thanks for stopping me second guessing myself.


The importance of having FIR filters is greatly overexaggerated by this forum. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Its always the guys that im not so sure about their actual experience and abilities that i see talking about how amazing DIRAC is, yet the people that i know are very good at tuning all seem to say "its an improvement, but only if you work at it/with it. It is not a one and done auto tune, you will still need to make adjustments".


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## piyush7243 (Sep 9, 2009)

Nice read, Peculiar to.see no mention of Arc Audio PS8 pro.

Its competent DSP as Well and software has definitely improved

Sent from my POCO F1 using Tapatalk


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

piyush7243 said:


> Nice read, Peculiar to.see no mention of Arc Audio PS8 pro.
> 
> Its competent DSP as Well and software has definitely improved
> 
> Sent from my POCO F1 using Tapatalk


I didnt know that one, it seems to be in the pricerange of the Helix Ultra, without the extra's... 
Always good to know which other good dsps are out there...


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

There has been a lot of discussion since, but I thought it fair to at least address the comments that directly quoted me.



lankfordcodi said:


> (Cringe) ... LOL says the guy with the WCA avatar pic





lankfordcodi said:


> Nothing I was just laughing because he wrote “(cringe)” in reference to the guys SPL build.


I cringed at "SQL" because of what always ensues every time that term is invoked. It is a nebulous term that has a ton of different definitions and it depends on who you ask. And there is inevitably someone who will pipe up with "SQL" = MECA Sound Quality League. Just as it happened in here. 

If there is something cringe-worthy about West Coast Audiophiles, I'd love to know what it is and where your frame of reference comes from.



ShastaMcNasty said:


> Curious... why do you say that? Don’t get me wrong, I know DSPs bring a whole host of functionality to the table. Perhaps I should have been a little more clear in my comment though. If you don’t need to worry about speaker placement (and therefore distance and/or reflections), can’t you do just about everything else with a solid head unit and a decent EQ?
> 
> In a classic car we are usually working with less space, so if we get the sound we want without a DSP, there is a benefit to doing so. I used a McIntosh MX406 and 4-channel McIntosh amp (only) in my classic car and it sounded amazing. I just had to put a lot of effort in to speaker selection and placement (especially since the car left the factory without any speakers!). To achieve good sound stage I made sure the speakers had good off-axis response (I couldn’t get every speaker to point right at me) and that the distance to my ear was appropriate for the frequency range each speaker was responsible for. I already knew the head unit and amp would give me the sound signature I wanted... and it didn’t let me down.
> 
> Do I think I could have received additional benefit from incorporating a DSP in to this build? Yes, of course I do. The point of my comment, however, was that it isn’t as big of a deal when you have a smaller environment to work with and you make the appropriate decisions elsewhere in your build.


I made my statement... "This is 100% factually inaccurate." in response to the selectively quoted part of your post... 


ShastaMcNasty said:


> The older cars are so much smaller, so the distance between you and the speakers, and therefore *the need for a DSP, isn’t as prevalent.*


Yes, there are things you can do minimize some of the processing required by complicating the install. Going to great measures to reduce path length differences and reflections can help. BUT, it does not remove the *NEED* for DSP in the automotive environment. You can select the objectively best equipment in the world, and the second you install it in an automotive environment all bets are off. You need to the process to account for the environment, even if you don't think you need it for the rest of the equipment. 

Here is an example of what I am taking about. This is unashamedly stolen from Andy Wehmeyer of Audiofrog. 

Measurement of a speaker by its self:









Measurement of the same speaker with the affects of the automotive environment: (Yes, this has a different scale.)


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> Well at that time my only reference of the sound of DSP's was all the processing units I heard from the last decades where we went to dozens of High End shows (homehifi) where literally not a single digital processor (also room correction units like Lyngdorf, and DEQX) gave a more analogue and pure sound than without the unit...
> It DID give a more fluid and right sound, like bass who was more tight, (because the room was causing trouble)... but it wasnt pure and real... like some pricy high end sets can sound. Btw more pricey isnt necessary better. I heard 10k sets that were suprisingly musical, and I heard 100k sets that were dissapointing. Its all a matter of the right balance!... and who made the match and setup. (Still talking homeaudio)...
> 
> It seems that the Helix could be the unit that doesnt take away the realness... like other cheap processors do. So I thought; have the 2way passive, and the sub corrected.
> ...


I come from a home and head audio background. The helix ultra is one of the most musical things ive ever heard. And i expect the DSP.3 is close. You know how hifi companies have a "house sound" I've struck up a friendship with the OZ distributor of audiotech fischer. He says that the ultra is 90% of a brax at 1/4 of the price. The DSP.3 benefits from the same technology flow down. He actually said that the DSP.3 would do a great job for me. I think he was a bit concerned the ulta wouldnt seem like good value. I have AU$7K of hertz gear and $3K in the helix processor i think its a great match. But im sure i would be happy with the DSP.3 as well. Note before i said about needing the $300 HEC USB module for USB connection if you can run a SPDIF into the helix you dont need that module


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> I come from a home and head audio background. The helix ultra is one of the most musical things ive ever heard. And i expect the DSP.3 is close. You know how hifi companies have a "house sound" I've struck up a friendship with the OZ distributor of audiotech fischer. He says that the ultra is 90% of a brax at 1/4 of the price. The DSP.3 benefits from the same technology flow down. He actually said that the DSP.3 would do a great job for me. I think he was a bit concerned the ulta wouldnt seem like good value. I have AU$7K of hertz gear and $3K in the helix processor i think its a great match. But im sure i would be happy with the DSP.3 as well. Note before i said about needing the $300 HEC USB module for USB connection if you can run a SPDIF into the helix you dont need that module


Woww one of the most musical things you heard, thats nice!!
Well if it sounds like the Audio Note gear that I am fond of then I am heading to the shop right now 😁
If it comes close I would be very happy and it will be money well spent.... 
Thanks for the reply Sam!


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

For the guys who have tuned these Dsp's before, how long does it take to tune it to lets say to about 90%... 
(I mean with your experience)

And how long to get it to a 100% (which is also a matter of taste of course)

I can imagine that it will take a Loooot longer if someone with no experience would try to tune it... maybe a few weeks to get it to 80%.

But probably once I played with it for a few weeks, (with knowing some about xo's and speakers) then to get it to around 90-100% isnt perhaps that hard anymore right?

I am curious...


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> For the guys who have tuned these Dsp's before, how long does it take to tune it to lets say to about 90%...
> (I mean with your experience)
> 
> And how long to get it to a 100% (which is also a matter of taste of course)
> ...


It took me and my installer 30 min to do a drivers seat autotune using the helix software. Neither of us had used a helix before, actually taylor my installer had put it in and tuned it by ear when i wasnt there. Once the MTK1 mic arrived taylor waited for me and we did it together. Definitely get a mic.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Keep in mind that the Helix auto-tune is really just "auto-EQ" - and it only EQ's using graphical EQ. You still have to set levels, time-alignment, crossovers, etc. Plus, the Helix auto-EQ is far from perfect - in my opinion, you can get much better EQ using parametric EQ - using less filters. My manual EQ work is way more accurate than the Helix auto-EQ (matches my house curve better, matches left/right better, correct some phase issues, etc). The Helix auto-EQ will get you something listenable, but you can do better manually, IMO. 

To honestly answer your question, for someone that is completely new to tuning and car audio, it can take months to get a good tune. The research required to learn the hows and whys is NOT something that is done in a few days. 

I'm _still_ working on my tune - for over a year now (was completely new to DSP's and never had an in-depth understanding of car audio).

Then there is phase, allpass filters, etc. 

The actual process of entering the data into the DSP is easy - it's all the research and knowing what to do that takes a long time.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

jtrosky said:


> Keep in mind that the Helix auto-tune is really just "auto-EQ" - and it only EQ's using graphical EQ. You still have to set levels, time-alignment, crossovers, etc. Plus, the Helix auto-EQ is far from perfect - in my opinion, you can get much better EQ using parametric EQ - using less filters. My manual EQ work is way more accurate than the Helix auto-EQ (matches my house curve better, matches left/right better, correct some phase issues, etc). The Helix auto-EQ will get you something listenable, but you can do better manually, IMO.
> 
> To honestly answer your question, for someone that is completely new to tuning and car audio, it can take months to get a good tune. The research required to learn the hows and whys is NOT something that is done in a few days.
> 
> ...


That's really helpful jtrosky, thanks. It sounds like I am at somewhere about you were 11-12-13.......18............24? months ago  It is always useful to get your expectations managed.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

jtrosky said:


> Keep in mind that the Helix auto-tune is really just "auto-EQ" - and it only EQ's using graphical EQ. You still have to set levels, time-alignment, crossovers, etc. Plus, the Helix auto-EQ is far from perfect - in my opinion, you can get much better EQ using parametric EQ - using less filters. My manual EQ work is way more accurate than the Helix auto-EQ (matches my house curve better, matches left/right better, correct some phase issues, etc). The Helix auto-EQ will get you something listenable, but you can do better manually, IMO.
> 
> To honestly answer your question, for someone that is completely new to tuning and car audio, it can take months to get a good tune. The research required to learn the hows and whys is NOT something that is done in a few days.
> 
> ...


Yeah thats what I thought too tbh... 
But I think its worth the learning. And I do have some background in the diy speaker building, which is handy... and I know I like to tune sound so... 
I guess its doable for me.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Yeah, the other thing - at least for me - is that I kept upgrading "stuff". I went from a DSR-1 to an AmpPro/Helix combo, I've upgrade all of the speakers, some multiple times, which also means you have to re-tune. So if you buy good gear from the start, you can get a great tune in far less time than I've spent - simply because I was a complete noob when it came to crossover, DSPs and car audio in general - and then I compounded the issues since I kept changing gear all of the time.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Yes thats understandable, 
and a common thing here...
I am okay with my setup but not okay enough, so I am changing mids and highs too... before buying the Dsp.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Don there is one thing to consider though, what if a DSP could make your speakers sound twice as good? I think I have great gear but the helix DSP manually tuned took it up a whole level. Then with a mic the auto tune did again, then running FLAC digital SPDIF directly into the helix DSP and bypassing the head unit took it up again. I'm not saying a DSP first is definitely the answer but think carefully about what order to do things. Maybe ask the others for an opinion on your speakers, they might be better than you think. 
Cheers, Sam


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

jtrosky said:


> Plus, the Helix auto-EQ is far from perfect - in my opinion, you can get much better EQ using parametric EQ - using less filters. My manual EQ work is way more accurate than the Helix auto-EQ (matches my house curve better,


I'm calling BS.. the auto tune has matched a curve quicker and better than manual eq every time by a large margin. Even noticeably better than rew's auto eq. That said, you are limited to the passband of the speakers, or left/right as a whole. 

As far as using less filters or whatever, doesn't matter. At the end of the day all filters sum into one transfer function. Using all graphic is actually beneficial in its own way as it is very easy to do manual tuning after the fact while keeping everything organized 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

jtrosky said:


> Keep in mind that the Helix auto-tune is really just "auto-EQ" - and it only EQ's using graphical EQ. You still have to set levels, time-alignment, crossovers, etc. Plus, the Helix auto-EQ is far from perfect - in my opinion, you can get much better EQ using parametric EQ - using less filters. My manual EQ work is way more accurate than the Helix auto-EQ (matches my house curve better, matches left/right better, correct some phase issues, etc). The Helix auto-EQ will get you something listenable, but you can do better manually, IMO.
> 
> To honestly answer your question, for someone that is completely new to tuning and car audio, it can take months to get a good tune. The research required to learn the hows and whys is NOT something that is done in a few days.
> 
> ...


Same. Totally agree with this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

Haha, just saw Skiz’s response. Not sure what about jtrosky’s experience is BS. It’s hard to argue if one person finds that he gets better results that sound better to him doing it manually? 

I found that I like the results better when I do it manually too. Could some of this be satisfaction in doing it myself? Yes. But I A/B’ed a manual and auto tune from helix and while both sounded great I liked my manual tune better.

My manual tune took WAAAAAY longer though, so there’s that 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Okay thanks for the responses. But isnt it so that you can autotune, and adjust it from there, for instance giving a bit more midbass at some hz... and a bit less at 2500hz and so... which in a way is finetuning it to your liking? 
Or cant the autotune be adjusted? And can you do it manually only with the REW inported?....


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Mauian said:


> I found that I like the results better when I do it manually too. Could some of this be satisfaction in doing it myself? Yes. But I A/B’ed a manual and auto tune from helix and while both sounded great I liked my manual tune better.
> 
> My manual tune took WAAAAAY longer though, so there’s that


There is a REALLY robust finding called the "Ikea effect" where the amount of struggle and personal effort you put into something greatly alters your perceived value of it. In the standard model there are two conditions: one where participants are given a crappy piece of furniture already assembled and a second where participants are given the components of the same piece and asked to construct it. In both cases participants are asked to place a dollar value on the chair for resale. Participants who do not build the piece give it a realistic value, typically just a couple of dollars. With overwhelming reliability participants who construct the furniture will place a high dollar value on their crappy pieces asking for 15 or 20 dollars.


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

opekone said:


> There is a REALLY robust finding called the "Ikea effect" where the amount of struggle and personal effort you put into something greatly alters your perceived value of it. In the standard model there are two conditions: one where participants are given a crappy piece of furniture already assembled and a second where participants are given the components of the same piece and asked to construct it. In both cases participants are asked to place a dollar value on the chair for resale. Participants who do not build the piece give it a realistic value, typically just a couple of dollars. With overwhelming reliability participants who construct the furniture will place a high dollar value on their crappy pieces asking for 15 or 20 dollars.


Hahaha. That’s great. So true.

I love my crappy manual tune  hahaha


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

Don Camillo said:


> Okay thanks for the responses. But isnt it so that you can autotune, and adjust it from there, for instance giving a bit more midbass at some hz... and a bit less at 2500hz and so... which in a way is finetuning it to your liking?
> Or cant the autotune be adjusted? And can you do it manually only with the REW inported?....


Yes. The auto tune results can be fine tuned manually.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

opekone said:


> There is a REALLY robust finding called the "Ikea effect" where the amount of struggle and personal effort you put into something greatly alters your perceived value of it. In the standard model there are two conditions: one where participants are given a crappy piece of furniture already assembled and a second where participants are given the components of the same piece and asked to construct it. In both cases participants are asked to place a dollar value on the chair for resale. Participants who do not build the piece give it a realistic value, typically just a couple of dollars. With overwhelming reliability participants who construct the furniture will place a high dollar value on their crappy pieces asking for 15 or 20 dollars.


LOL.... yeah but its true!.... when in the beginning when I was tuning home crossovers I asked my friends to listen to my latest adjustment, I often felt more enthusiastic then my friends.... also when they had it done at their homes... they had the same expectations... while the ones who came listening heard some flaws...
Especially in the beginning of the set, but when it really improved we do were enthusiastic... so we do were honost.

So although we think we are so objectively with our fair mindsets... its actually a bit less and we are influenced. Thats why afterwards always listen with a good listening buddy with the same taste in sound.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Mauian said:


> Yes. The auto tune results can be fine tuned manually.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Okay great!


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> Don there is one thing to consider though, what if a DSP could make your speakers sound twice as good? I think I have great gear but the helix DSP manually tuned took it up a whole level. Then with a mic the auto tune did again, then running FLAC digital SPDIF directly into the helix DSP and bypassing the head unit took it up again. I'm not saying a DSP first is definitely the answer but think carefully about what order to do things. Maybe ask the others for an opinion on your speakers, they might be better than you think.
> Cheers, Sam


Yes indeed thats what I thought too. 
But I am not blown away with the small Vifa XT ringradiator (which is pretty good, especially for the money) so want to change it anyhow... I do have a threat here somewhere about 2 way Satori, or so... I will also look into that some more.... so much to do. Also with work...


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

SkizeR said:


> I'm calling BS.. the auto tune has matched a curve quicker and better than manual eq every time by a large margin. Even noticeably better than rew's auto eq. That said, you are limited to the passband of the speakers, or left/right as a whole.
> 
> As far as using less filters or whatever, doesn't matter. At the end of the day all filters sum into one transfer function. Using all graphic is actually beneficial in its own way as it is very easy to do manual tuning after the fact while keeping everything organized
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


We've talked about this before - but for whatever reason, when I do the Helix auto-tune, my left/right side don't match anywhere near as well as my manual (or REWs automated) parametric EQ. I know you'll say that I must be doing something wrong with the Helix auto-EQ, but if I am, then the auto-EQ is too complicated.  

I'll agree 100% that auto-EQ is _quicker_, but I don't agree that it's as good or better than manual EQ. I'm not going for quicker - I'm going for better. I will also say that it's not a very user-friendly process. It's also "strange" how It adjusts all bands on all channels when EQ'ing a whole side, for example - so it'll adjust high frequency bands on both the tweeter channels and the midbass channels when auto-EQ'ing a whole side. I understand why it does it (because all channels are linked), but why the hell do I want/need it to adjust 5khz+ for my midbass channels, which only play up to 400hz (for example)? It just isn't very intuitive or "clean" in my opinion. I can guarantee that my manual EQ gets closer to my target curve and matches left/right better than the Helix auto-EQ will get it. Not even close, really. You may say that it doesn't matter, but I disagree - at least in my car.  It's OK, we can disagree.

The reason I mention using less filters is because when I mention that I used 15 filters to EQ my dash speakers (400hz-20khz, for example), everyone always says "if you're using more that 10 filters, something is wrong", "you're beating your speaker frequency response into submission", "the less processing the better" etc, etc, etc....  Well, the auto-EQ will use more filters than I will manually with parametric EQ - every time. Plus, the more it uses, the less you have available for allpass filters, shelf filters, Helix tone controls, etc.

If graphic EQ was able to achieve as good of results as parametric EQ, then parametric EQ wouldn't be desired or needed, right?  I just prefer manual parametric EQ - I've had better results with it. Plus, I learned a ton along the way that will help me tune better in the end.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Don Camillo said:


> ...
> I know right imaging and TA makes all the difference!... but I enjoy "real, natural, analogue" sound more than corrected with missing musicality...
> ...


^Those words^ sound like a magic show.
But what do they mean subjectively?




K-pop sucks said:


> Sure, you can't get a 100% perfect autotune. But you get 90% of the way there and have a solid base to start dialing in.


How far away were we?
Or, "90% of what"?

With the MIniDSP I am pretty sure that the tune is nit exportable, so if one had three camreys in a shop all the same, they would end p with three tunes because could not do it once, and then move that tune sto other units.

Or have they changed it?.




jtrosky said:


> ...
> The actual process of entering the data into the DSP is easy - it's all the research and knowing what to do that takes a long time.


This is a the hard truth that makes talking about being 90% of the way "there", question where "there is?"

On one hand we can measure objectively rather than use the raving of a lunatic with eyes to the sky, talking about air and musicality.
Then we can argue about whether some small nuance can be heard or matters at all in a practical sense.

At the end of the day people are not sitting in the car with eyes closed listening to the music while going down the road in sublime bliss. Sone they will be,, but not today.

Anyhow if someone has a boner for DSP X, then they usually get DSP X.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

opekone said:


> There is a REALLY robust finding called the "Ikea effect" where the amount of struggle and personal effort you put into something greatly alters your perceived value of it. In the standard model there are two conditions: one where participants are given a crappy piece of furniture already assembled and a second where participants are given the components of the same piece and asked to construct it. In both cases participants are asked to place a dollar value on the chair for resale. Participants who do not build the piece give it a realistic value, typically just a couple of dollars. With overwhelming reliability participants who construct the furniture will place a high dollar value on their crappy pieces asking for 15 or 20 dollars.


Thatsca great post opekone. Sort of like confirmarion bias but not. But definitely about people puttinh a higher value on their time and effort than others.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Holmz said:


> ^Those words^ sound like a magic show.
> But what do they mean subjectively?
> 
> 
> ...





> Don Camillo said:
> ...
> I know right imaging and TA makes all the difference!... but I enjoy "real, natural, analogue" sound more than corrected with missing musicality...
> ...


"^Those words^ sound like a magic show.
But what do they mean subjectively?"

I think we need a hifi turing test. A systematic test for musicality or musical realism. Blindfold a judge or customer. Walk them from car to car or room to room with the doors open. Turn on the stereo and play some of the 4 seasons or have a violinist play the same piece. See if the judge can tell if it was a recording or if it was a real instrument. If they repeatedly pick the hifì as a violin you're on a musicality winner. Of course from outside the room or car the sounstage could be **** and you'd never know

When Dali released the full length ribbon hybrid speaker with a bass driver called the DaCapo they had a string quartet playing on stage. Pulled back the curtain and it was actually the speakers. It was remarkable. Of course they couldnt play metallica convincingly. But they made choral. Music, piano, violin and female vocals like kd lang sound amazing.

Words like musicality might sound magical and not be convincingly correlated with repeatable measurements but what sounds musical is trapped in the details of human perception. And that's often very hard to measure.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

"Anyhow if someone has a boner for DSP X, then they usually get DSP X."

Well that's what sold the ultra to me🍆. And the musicality 🤣 it certainly wasnt the price 😄


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Holmz said:


> ^Those words^ sound like a magic show.
> But what do they mean subjectively?
> 
> 
> ...


Well I guess it means I like a magic show.... 😃
But for real, in short it means that I want the played acoustical instruments as real as possible... as natural as the real one. So a grand piano doesnt sound like a synthesizer.... or a Martin Gitar sounds like one and not like a Yamaha. Etc...

And when its almost as real as the real thing then its 100%, to answer your other question... I know 100% is impossible, but for the limitations of the setup, as good as you can get it to sound... so thats 100%.

Of course this means that you have heard those instruments in real life as well as on the best high end home audio systems...

I assume not many have heard it as caraudio freaks, thats allright... (I didnt too 25 yrs ago) I was just trying to explain what I value and enjoy most in a system, more than a perfect center or image...
Its not easy to explain how you think about sound differences or your taste, especially when English isnt my language...

Besides that, measuring (or science) isnt everything... it wont show you if you hear more air or black between instruments or musicality (realness) or other things...

I care much more for what I hear (and the ability to finetune by ear) then a measurement... generally.

Some great measuring drivers I bought didnt sound as good (or real) as some a bit worse measuring drivers...

With other gear too, like cables you can hear more difference than measurements show.

Thats why if you caraudio guys want a realy good sound I advise to listen to multiple top high end home systems with your music and also acoustic concerts.. the ears get better the more you heard and u can use it to tune your sound...


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

I'm still struggling to understand which DSP's generate the "cleanest" signal. Yes, I know the term may not mean the same thing to everyone. To me at least, it means the most flat or unmolested signal. Since an amplifier regardless how good it is, will introduce some distortion during amplification, the input it receives is important in my opinion.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

how do i unsubscribe. this new layout sucks and this thread is getting absurd and beyond off track


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> how do i unsubscribe. this new layout sucks and this thread is getting absurd and beyond off track


Was that in response to my comment?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)




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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

I don't know about un-subscribing, but there is a "unfollow" button on each thread.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> how do i unsubscribe. this new layout sucks and this thread is getting absurd and beyond off track


Virtual hugs from downunder @SkizeR 😄

Ps Is your profile pic a cat?


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## ShastaMcNasty (Dec 10, 2017)

opekone said:


> The worst part about the Helix is the awful software interface and what is involved in punching in EQ results from REW. It's like the people who designed it have never used REW. Although it's not the most intuitive, at least in the DSP408 you can tab between the EQ channels so you can enter all the fequencies, then all the Q's, then all the db's. My keystrokes look like:
> 
> 
> In the Helix the best way I've found is to:
> ...


LOL...


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> Well I guess it means I like a magic show.... 😃
> But for real, in short it means that I want the played acoustical instruments as real as possible... as natural as the real one. So a grand piano doesnt sound like a synthesizer.... or a Martin Gitar sounds like one and not like a Yamaha. Etc...
> 
> And when its almost as real as the real thing then its 100%, to answer your other question... I know 100% is impossible, but for the limitations of the setup, as good as you can get it to sound... so thats 100%.
> ...


"With other gear too, like cables you can hear more difference than measurements show"

after selling hi end cables and messing around with them at home I'm a complete cable sceptic. Beyond a minimum build quality, correct gauge, real copper not coated aluminium and appropriate shielding, cables are pretty much the same i think. I know people want to believe esoteric hi end cables work and i would too if id just dropped the cost of my cd player on some speaker cable and interconnects. We all would feel pretty stupid if our $1000 black magic cables sprinkled with audiophile fairy dust made from unicorn turds didnt improve sound
wouldnt we 🤣 its confirmation bias.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

The Italian said:


> I'm still struggling to understand which DSP's generate the "cleanest" signal. Yes, I know the term may not mean the same thing to everyone. To me at least, it means the most flat or unmolested signal. Since an amplifier regardless how good it is, will introduce some distortion during amplification, the input it receives is important in my opinion.


the ultra is amazing. I could use it as a DAC and preamp in my home system. I assume all the other helix ones are good. @SkizeR didnt you bench test some DSPs ive seen you comment. Based on tests that the DSP3 then the ultra then the brax are better? Was that just as a DSP or was it SQ too?


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> Well I guess it means I like a magic show.... 😃
> But for real, in short it means that I want the played acoustical instruments as real as possible... as natural as the real one. So a grand piano doesnt sound like a synthesizer.... or a Martin Gitar sounds like one and not like a Yamaha. Etc...
> 
> And when its almost as real as the real thing then its 100%, to answer your other question... I know 100% is impossible, but for the limitations of the setup, as good as you can get it to sound... so thats 100%.
> ...


"Thats why if you caraudio guys want a realy good sound I advise to listen to multiple top high end home systems with your music and also acoustic concerts.. the ears get better the more you heard and u can use it to tune your sound..."

This oh yes this. If you value realism. If you're mainly after bass and making your ears bleed it doesnt matter. 🤣

But serously i thought i knew a lot about hifi and cars would be easy. Nope. But if rhe only best gear you listen to is car audio yoi are missing out on the bigger picture.
My home hifi and headphones and gigs are what i test my car system against. It's getting closer with every upgrade

I also think that there is a sigbificant minority of carfi people who havent heard top end home hifi or been to many great gigs to compare


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

I appreciate all of the comments on this thread. It really kind of blew up, huh? Despite the differing opinions, I've grown from your contributions my friends! 

I wanted to make a quick point. All of us have different budgets; even from one build to another! Ultimately, our choices are forever linked to a series of compromises. It's the reason I added the last phrase to the title of this thread. 

Unless you are currently in a position to buy the absolute best of everything, you will have to make choices of where to spend and where to cut. I have no doubt that the few units at the very top end of the class are likely superior to the majority. However in my current build, spending $1,500 or more just on a DSP means that I will have to cut on sound deadening, or custom enclosures for subs, or somewhere else. 

And that brings us around to the heart of the matter. How much better is a $1,500 DSP vs. one costing $300? Is it worth sacrificing $1,200 in sound deadening the quality of the rest of the components, or other areas?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Don Camillo said:


> Well I guess it means I like a magic show.... 😃
> But for real, in short it means that I want the played acoustical instruments as real as possible... as natural as the real one. So a grand piano doesnt sound like a synthesizer.... or a Martin Gitar sounds like one and not like a Yamaha. Etc...
> ...
> Besides that, measuring (or science) isnt everything... it wont show you if you hear more air or black between instruments or musicality (realness) or other things...
> ...


If one assumes that the "air" is either there (or not there) in the original waveform; then one can see how closely the recreated waveform matches the input.

One could make the DSP colour the sound, or distort it.

However most people would be distorting the electrical signal to reduce distortions in the recreated waveform.
For instance; making the amplitude flat and removing big peaks and nulls.
And they do that by distorting the electrical signal to equalise the combination of the speakers, and car.
Some DSPs may add a bit of noise, or create some other low level distortions.

I don't know.
However if the speaker distortions are greater than the DSP or amplifier distortions, then the DSP is not the long pole in the tent.
If I did not see people easily fooled in A/B tests, then I would probably trust those subjective tests... but as I don't trust them I refer to that with polemic phases like "Magic".
(Which could across as condescending &/or arrogant.)

*Now how would one quanitfy the 90%...*

Take a Y connector and run the HU out one side
Run the other side to the DSP
put a microphone in the listening position and caputure a signal
divide the microphone signal by the house curve.
adjust the gain level so mix and HU signals are equal
Run those two signals into a box and subtract one signal from the other and measure the RMS level. (Or listen to that differenced signal)
^Which^ is basically, and exactly, what the auto tune is doing.

Now if someone shows me a tune where the RMS difference is massively high and different everywhere except in the nulls, and another tune where the RMS difference is low... I would have a hard time believing their ears over the numbers if the worse number are a better tune.
It it gets really hard when the RMS difference is at zero, which means it is doing it perfectly, and has perfect fidelity to the original.

Yhis method does tells us that we are 90% or the way there, it just tells us how much distortion is remaining. But when it goes to zero, then we are exactly at 100% of the way there.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

The Italian said:


> Was that in response to my comment?


No probably mine... but thats okay 🙃
He is right, I got off track... but reacted to comments..


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

The Italian said:


> I appreciate all of the comments on this thread. It really kind of blew up, huh? Despite the differing opinions, I've grown from your contributions my friends!
> 
> I wanted to make a quick point. All of us have different budgets; even from one build to another! Ultimately, our choices are forever linked to a series of compromises. It's the reason I added the last phrase to the title of this thread.
> 
> ...


Thats a good question!!
I'd say the Dsp3 WITH sounddeadening and better components, in stead of the ultra without sounddeadening and less components...

What I learned is; in audio -everything- matters and contributes.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

@Sam and @Holmz 

I totally get the scepsis towards the cables and magical descriptions of High End mumba jumba guys who think they can hear it but in A/B test cant hear the difference... and that measuring provides us better proof...
I thought alike earlier...

But ppl whith -good and well trained hearing- have grown so much over the years that they (and me too) can hear slightest differences. 

I learned; in audio -everything- matters and contributes. 

And, its all about balance!! 

Once your set is almost balanced in what u like the most soundwise, then the little differences between that cable or that better resistor (with same value) can give you the latest finetuning towards your endgoal. 

And the differences are then a little more obvious as when a set isnt nice in Balance. 

But its also about the trained ear... the more training the better your hearing differences (for SQ)

I wouldnt buy a 1000,- cable, its absurd. 100,- (or double) is good enough. But it isnt the price. Its finding which does sound better and which is marketing BS. 

As for measuring, its nice but it isnt everything. Differences between components are also what materials are used etc. Some brands have a certain sound like Focal had yrs ago (dont know if its nowadays) and Dynaudio and Audio Technology has... And for instance the Tangband drivers measure all very nice, yet they sound sooo different. 

Well enough off topic, I dont wanna scare ppl of unfollowing... 😉

(I mentioned it because there is more to it than needing a good dsp to have great sound).


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

The Italian said:


> I appreciate all of the comments on this thread. It really kind of blew up, huh? Despite the differing opinions, I've grown from your contributions my friends!
> 
> I wanted to make a quick point. All of us have different budgets; even from one build to another! Ultimately, our choices are forever linked to a series of compromises. It's the reason I added the last phrase to the title of this thread.
> 
> ...


You absolutely need to balance your components. The biggest mistake I see is people buying amps that are not powerful enough so you end up with a fiat bambino engine driving a truck. But in cars deadening is important too. and DSP's and speakers and sources. 

You can build progressively

I'd probably start with a great pair of front speakers, amp and head unit. and do some deadening. 

Or keep the OEM head unit especially if it is a classic and buy a DSP, amp and front speakers and use a digital source in for hifi listening and run the hi or low level outputs from the OEM head unit into the DSP for radio. 

Then add a DSP, sub and more deadening as I go. Depends if you have a front stage and sub or rear speakers as well. If it's just a front stage 3 way might be best. Once you've taken any panel apart do the deadening properly. so you don't have to go back in. I'd buy really good components and buy them once. But realistically, you need to look at the DSP mini, the DSP.3 and Ultra and see what features you need as a minimum. assuming you go with helix. It is a bit of a guessing game as to what SQ compares like across the three. 

But this is brainstorming. I'm not giving concrete advice. But for me if i couldn't do it all at once i'd spend my budget on the front stage, amp and dsp, and add a sub later. 

Hell my Hertz 1650.3 mille legends go to 40 htz well installed with a good amp. I can turn my subs off and still have an awesome listening experience. I've tried it.


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

opekone said:


> There is a REALLY robust finding called the "Ikea effect" where the amount of struggle and personal effort you put into something greatly alters your perceived value of it. In the standard model there are two conditions: one where participants are given a crappy piece of furniture already assembled and a second where participants are given the components of the same piece and asked to construct it. In both cases participants are asked to place a dollar value on the chair for resale. Participants who do not build the piece give it a realistic value, typically just a couple of dollars. With overwhelming reliability participants who construct the furniture will place a high dollar value on their crappy pieces asking for 15 or 20 dollars.


There's also studies that show the more money people spend on something, the more they perceive it to be ideal - essentially making anecdotal fallacy stronger. People expect that the more they spend, the better something must be - but like with SPL subwoofers, that's simply not always true. Especially when specific goals are introduced - or disregarded. You pay more for "niche", and if you are a SQ guy who pays $1000 bucks for an SPL amplifier - you'll be disappointed. If you are an average Joe who spends $2000 on Focal Utopias, and just swaps the factory speakers for them - they won't be close to reaching $2000 worth of potential (or even $200 worth of equivalent). But Average Joe doesn't know that, assumes since he's spent the money - that's as good as it could possibly get. And since Joe only has his anecdotal experience, combined with his limited understanding, Average Joe turns into the guy you see on EVERY forum, countering every caution and criticism with "You know what man? I don't care what you say about [sealing your doors/acoustic treatments/placement/aiming/EQ/etc]... I like how it sounds, and that's all that matters!"
It's an artificial argument ender because
a) to this guy, sure, fine whatever. He's right, what matters is he's satisfied with his $2000 purchase.
b) to everyone else reading on the forum, it's a fallacy - he could have been just as satisfied or more with a $100 set of speakers and $100 more spent on even minor door treatments. From a form perspective, it doesn't help the forum reader, reading the member's perception is artificially higher than it should be. In my experience you can identify that guy by their lack of ability to discuss at a technical level. This is the person who just says things like "I love my Focal speakers", and can't convey why beyond "they just sounded best to me".

And there's definitely also a personality type - the person who doesn't want to talk about the result of what they got, they want to show off what they spent. They will actively say "that cost me *_*". The result isn't what they care about, just conspicuous consumption. Their "high" or "stoke" doesn't come from that feeling of getting a better result, it comes from a feeling of "I afforded this, and other people can't".

I hate to say it, but whenever I encounter those types of people - the "I swear to god these things I own are awesome", and the "I spent more than you, so I"m better than you" personality types - I completely disregard (if I even read on) what they are saying.

And you know what - there's a lot of them. It's unfortunate, because they make up a lot of the "people who spend more" demographic - people who have more money than knowledge, vs. people who have enough knowledge to know they need to spend more here and there, and therefore made the choices they did. The former are many, the latter are few - but are the valuable ones. So it's important to be able to differentiate them. SO important, IMO.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

geolemon said:


> There's also studies that show the more money people spend on something, the more they perceive it to be ideal - essentially making anecdotal fallacy stronger. People expect that the more they spend, the better something must be - but like with SPL subwoofers, that's simply not always true. Especially when specific goals are introduced - or disregarded. You pay more for "niche", and if you are a SQ guy who pays $1000 bucks for an SPL amplifier - you'll be disappointed. If you are an average Joe who spends $2000 on Focal Utopias, and just swaps the factory speakers for them - they won't be close to reaching $2000 worth of potential (or even $200 worth of equivalent). But Average Joe doesn't know that, assumes since he's spent the money - that's as good as it could possibly get. And since Joe only has his anecdotal experience, combined with his limited understanding, Average Joe turns into the guy you see on EVERY forum, countering every caution and criticism with "You know what man? I don't care what you say about [sealing your doors/acoustic treatments/placement/aiming/EQ/etc]... I like how it sounds, and that's all that matters!"
> It's an artificial argument ender because
> a) to this guy, sure, fine whatever. He's right, what matters is he's satisfied with his $2000 purchase.
> b) to everyone else reading on the forum, it's a fallacy - he could have been just as satisfied or more with a $100 set of speakers and $100 more spent on even minor door treatments. From a form perspective, it doesn't help the forum reader, reading the member's perception is artificially higher than it should be. In my experience you can identify that guy by their lack of ability to discuss at a technical level. This is the person who just says things like "I love my Focal speakers", and can't convey why beyond "they just sounded best to me".
> ...


Buyers remorse and embarrasment are issues. And sheer pig headed denial 😄 
.
Self reflection and the ability to admit you are wrong are great characteristics to have. 

Bragging about how much money you have and what you can afford go deeply to some people's personal image of who they are. Which is a bit sad. Better to brag about how philanthropic you are. That's still a bit needy but at least they are making a difference.


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## qiangda (Jun 11, 2020)

DSP processor is to promote a set of the ordinary audio system to a very high level of sound quality performance but to achieve a high level of sound quality performance, not only need a good product but also need a powerful tuner.

When choosing to buy a DSP, priority should be given to meeting these three points:

① The more functions of DSP, the better, the more functions, the tuner will not be limited by the function when tuning, and it is difficult to improve the sound quality to a higher level. It's like a chef needs a full range of ingredients to make a dish more delicious.









② The finer the adjustment, the better. For the tuner, the finer the DSP, the better the tuning.

③Expansibility and compatibility. Expansibility is to reserve space for future upgrades. Compatibility needs to consider whether the DSP is compatible with the original car system, human-machine interface, buttons, etc. Generally, choose a DSP with greater compatibility.

At the same time, when purchasing DSP, objectively, it also depends on the comparison of data, such as technical aspects, parts, etc. To sum up in one sentence: No matter how good the data is displayed, it does not mean that the sound quality is improved better, and the sound quality is improved. The display on the data is not bad.

Only with the above points can a qualified DSP be counted, and each frequency band of the sound can be corrected in the car, so as to maximize the user experience.


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