# highend amps have an audible difference?



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

I've heard the differences. even though they may be minute I've played in bands nearly all my life and some DO sound more realistic. matter fact ill even say the best sounding amps I've heard are built or where built about 20 miles away from here. Lunar amps..

i know this is a widely discussed topic but id like to get down the the nitty gritty and have a technical discussion as to what takes place during amplification and why some designs are better than others.


----------



## dallasneon (Nov 3, 2005)

Have you searched for this topic? It's been beat to death....

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

dallasneon said:


> Have you searched for this topic? It's been beat to death....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


You are being far to kind....
:dead_horse::dead_horse:


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Op is a self proclaimed golden ear and wants to argue until everyone agrees with him. He thinks his ears are a calibrated NASA spec o-scope.


----------



## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

bassfreak85 said:


> i know this is a widely discussed topic but id like to get down the the nitty gritty and have a technical discussion as to what takes place during amplification and why some designs are better than others.




^^ he already acknowledged that he knows it's been discussed 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

This topic falls right there with magical speaker wire and rca cables. If an amp does more than just take what is sent to it and AMPLIFY the signal the design isn't true to the signal. Where I feel a high end amp should earn its place is with high quality close tolerance parts that will make its service life without issues justify the cost. Too bad you can't always depend on high price equaling high quality. Certain brands have a "baller" status and they sure do look nice in a vehicle. If the owner can drop the coin on it without going into debt more power to them and I'm happy for them. I just wonder sometimes how these really high end amps would do in a double blind test.


----------



## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

I used to think once you got to a certain "level" amp class, there wasn't much of a difference. 

But after this weekend, sitting in Mike's Beetle with the Milbert Tube amp....I'm sorry but there is definitely a difference 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

MrGreen83 said:


> I used to think once you got to a certain "level" amp class, there wasn't much of a difference.
> 
> But after this weekend, sitting in Mike's Beetle with the Milbert Tube amp....I'm sorry but there is definitely a difference
> 
> ...


Key word is "tube". Of course you're gonna hear a difference


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm sure it had nothing to do with the tune.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

DC/Hertz said:


> I'm sure it had nothing to do with the tune.


But a tube amp adds pleasurable distortion. I thought this thread was comparing apples to apples, not apples to tubes:laugh:


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

i want in-depth discussion. 
I've yet to see anyone win anything that isn't biased with you average budget amp.
i'm not taking about bypassing internals and a setting up blind test with material that is difficult to distinguish. if we are going to do that you need the best drivers on earth to make those distinctions because naturally the driver is going to add its own natural signature that can complicate things. I'm talking about recording live music and getting the extremely detailed natural recording in sine-wave in real time and overlapping them with the amps output waveform and then listening to it through very low distortion setup.
hard evidence that all amps outputs are the same. Not some test that designed to have minimal differences where you user must score perfect and match it for a pay off. that test is designed to be NEARLY impossible to past not because differences cannot be hear but the variables are widely in favor of failing.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> But a tube amp adds pleasurable distortion. I thought this thread was comparing apples to apples, not apples to tubes:laugh:


now tube amps are very low distortion. THat "good distortion" is when you clip them fyi..that's like saying there is a difference in AB and D.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Cheap ass PPI phantoms had a triple crown. You are not looking hard enough.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

bassfreak85 said:


> i want in-depth discussion.
> I've yet to see anyone win anything that isn't biased with you average budget amp.
> i'm not taking about bypassing internals and a setting up blind test with material that is difficult to distinguish. if we are going to do that you need the best drivers on earth to make those distinctions because naturally the driver is going to add its own natural signature that can complicate things. I'm talking about recording live music and getting the extremely detailed natural recording in sine-wave in real time and overlapping them with the amps output waveform and then listening to it through very low distortion setup.
> hard evidence that all amps outputs are the same. Not some test that designed to have minimal differences where you user must score perfect and match it for a pay off. that test is designed to be NEARLY impossible to past not because differences cannot be hear but the variables are widely in favor of failing.


Sounds to me like you have an agenda. Ever step back and think that the people who are dropping big money into amps are also either really good at tuning OR are paying known good tuners to dial their high dollar system in...or have friends in the hobby that they're sharing ideas with to make their tune better? These same people with high end amps that do well in comps I guarantee you could swap their high end amps with something middle of the road like Alpine pdx, any of the JL offerings, or any other known good amp that just about anyone could afford and still clean up in competition. Whether or not these people run high end amps because they want to or because they think they add that extra something is something only they can answer, but I know for a fact they're good at making what they have sound good...at least the ones I've had the pleasure of meeting do. And big power with good internals and close tolerance parts probably does make some form of audible difference, but like with anything the law of diminishing returns starts to kick in as price goes up.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

DC/Hertz said:


> Cheap ass PPI phantoms had a triple crown. You are not looking hard enough.


The OP doesn't want to hear about those people. The Phantom amps really are good amps from what I hear right up until they aren't. And here I am running the Smokestream version of one of them on my sub


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Yeah I know what he wants to hear. He won't hear it from me.


----------



## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

Not to my ears. I've owned Tru T03, Sinfoni, Audison VRX, Helix A4, Butler Tube Blue, Original Butler, SoundStream Continuum, and many others - expensive and cheap. The only two that stood out as slightly "warm" was the original Butler and the VRX. All others sounded exactly the same to my ears. I would say buy as much power as you can in a "good" quality, reliable amp. Just my $.02 and for what it's worth, I'm using JL XD amps right now and I've never had a better sounding system. Install and tune! (I would say that if I were betting on any amp sounding "different" it would be a Milbert or something similar....)


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

I don't understand why this is a big discussion. In a lab could there be differences? There may be. 

How many of these cork-sniffing anal retentive golden eared gods of audio could take their megawatt .00000001% distortion uber amps, throw them in my Buick, tune as they wish, and tell me the difference at 70 mph, jamming acdc? 


It's CAR audio. Not listening lab audio. I don't see how and of this nth degree stuff matters in the real world.


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

OP, if you're looking for something objective and scientific, then adding a poll defeated your purpose. Do you want data, or a poll?


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

truckerfte said:


> I don't understand why this is a big discussion. In a lab could there be differences? There may be.
> 
> How many of these cork-sniffing anal retentive golden eared gods of audio could take their megawatt .00000001% distortion uber amps, throw them in my Buick, tune as they wish, and tell me the difference at 70 mph, jamming acdc?
> 
> ...


Some of us do listen with the engine off quite a bit. Everything still goes to hell because of the lousy "room" we have to tune around though.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

gijoe said:


> OP, if you're looking for something objective and scientific, then adding a poll defeated your purpose. Do you want data, or a poll?


the poll is for what you believe. the discussion is to tackle the facts, which i have yet to see..
those PPI amps are NASTY ****ty filtering harsh and hollow..

might i add a biased listening session isn't the most accurate judgment. we all know that some shows are biased..


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

And here we go.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

that being said. The biggest issues are phasing(acoustical) then the loudspeakers(b/l and mechanical IMD). i will agree amps have come a long way. even well designed budget amps like the zapco ST line for example sound great. i personally own a xenon 200.4. 
FYI i just seen the new zapco DSP V series. holy moly..


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

For every person that says there is a difference you will find a person that says there is no difference

This topic is like religion....

There are guys that do blind tests on amps and give reviews - well they heard something different?

So I think listen to a few setups and buy what you feel sounded the best to you within your budget

I hear the Helix P6 DSP MKii is very good - maybe put that on your list?

















Good enough for Audiotec Fisher to use as a There demo car - Julian Fischer's BMW


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Elektra said:


> For every person that says there is a difference you will find a person that says there is no difference
> 
> This topic is like religion....
> 
> ...


oh my..


----------



## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

bassfreak85 said:


> the poll is for what you believe. the discussion is to tackle the facts, which i have yet to see..
> those PPI amps are NASTY ****ty filtering harsh and hollow..
> 
> might i add a biased listening session isn't the most accurate judgment. we all know that some shows are biased..


Why don't you just find some NOS or near-new Lunar amps and be done with it then? Seems like you are starting the discussion with the bias that those amps are hitting your sweet spot. Save yourself the time and effort.


----------



## HOTT_SINCE_81 (Jul 16, 2016)

Just did a system in my chicks 4Runner and used a a Rockford PBR300X2 to power a set of Focal KRX2's for the front stage. Sounded OK but not the way I remember them sounding when I had them in my car. 

So I pulled the Fosgate and threw in a Audison LRx 2.4.

Completely changed the sound of the front stage and again sounded as I remembered them sounding in my car previously. 

So I say yes there is a difference. A noticeable one! 

I could be wrong but after all this is car audio and you drive your car not the guy with the lab accurate answer. Do what makes you happy and content with your set up. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

HOTT_SINCE_81 said:


> Just did a system in my chicks 4Runner and used a a Rockford PBR300X2 to power a set of Focal KRX2's for the front stage. Sounded OK but not the way I remember them sounding when I had them in my car.
> 
> So I pulled the Fosgate and threw in a Audison LRx 2.4.
> 
> ...


Two different cars (and possibly speakers?) And your attributing it to the amp? Yeah, makes sense. That's the problem I have with threads like these.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

PPI_GUY said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > the poll is for what you believe. the discussion is to tackle the facts, which i have yet to see..
> ...


The owner of lunar does t make them anymore. I heard a few reasons
Im sure if i drive up there i could get a 2100hc and a 2200hc.
Reason i have tge pg was i was in north dakota and the amp was a steal. Not to mention its decent as well.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I`m building an amplifier that will blow all your brains straight out.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> I`m building an amplifier that will blow all your brains straight out.


when i get to hear it?


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> I`m building an amplifier that will blow all your brains straight out.


can i be a tester.. please


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> can i be a tester.. please


Me too!


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> can i be a tester.. please


I don`t see why not.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Me too!


I`ll start a thread when it`s time.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I don`t do deadlines- it kills creativity and outcome.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Take as long as you need to Victor. If you let me be a tester I'd love to drop it in before a big g2g to get ears on it. Headroom, low noise floor, and staying true to the signal is what I look for in an amp. Actually about to order a PDX F6 to run the fronts because of an issue that probably caused my amp to be a refurb in the first place!


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Headroom, low noise floor, and staying true to the signal is what I look for in an amp.


Oh, I was hoping it would actually blow my brains out

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

dallasneon said:


> Have you searched for this topic? It's been beat to death....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Yeah, it has been beaten to death but I can still hear the difference. I hear it mostly in subs, some amps drive them with more tightness and authority than others. I know I am not crazy, my shrink told me so.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> Oh, I was hoping it would actually blow my brains out
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## HOTT_SINCE_81 (Jul 16, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> Two different cars (and possibly speakers?) And your attributing it to the amp? Yeah, makes sense. That's the problem I have with threads like these.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk




The Exact pair of speakers transplanted actually both in kick panels both times tuned by myself and using an almost identical head unit.

So yeah I attribute it to the amps...

Not to mention even if I had Alzheimer's and couldn't remember what the hell it sounded like prior, at the end of day a singular change made a dramatic difference in the current veh. 

Holy'er than thou peeps is why I hate threads like this. Not because of another persons two cents and them sharing their opinion. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

HOTT_SINCE_81 said:


> The Exact pair of speakers transplanted actually both in kick panels both times tuned by myself and using an almost identical head unit.
> 
> So yeah I attribute it to the amps...
> 
> ...


But still two different cars, the biggest factor of the equation..

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## HOTT_SINCE_81 (Jul 16, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> But still two different cars, the biggest factor of the equation..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk




Your missing the point. The only reason I stated I remembered them sounding differently was that was my motivation to swap the amps in the first place. I'm not comparing the way it sounds in my chicks car vs how it sounded in my car. 

Strictly based off how they sounded in her car with the two amps...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

HOTT_SINCE_81 said:


> I'm not comparing the way it sounds in my chicks car vs how it sounded in my car.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's the problem. If it were the different amps in the same car/install it would be a different story

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## HOTT_SINCE_81 (Jul 16, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> That's the problem. If it were the different amps in the same car/install it would be a different story
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk




Holy hell! That's exactly what it is. 

1 car

2 different amps

1 singular change

Huge difference? 

I checked my initial post and that's what I wrote...?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

HOTT_SINCE_81 said:


> Holy hell! That's exactly what it is.
> 
> 1 car
> 
> ...


Yes but your saying the focal speakers did not sound the way you remembered in your car... had the amp swap been in the same car it might be something valid

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## HOTT_SINCE_81 (Jul 16, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> Yes but your saying the focal speakers did not sound the way you remembered in your car... had the amp swap been in the same car it might be something valid
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk



✊️

OK, let me restate my initial post since we can't seem to look past the fact that I mentioned the exact speakers were pulled from my car and installed in her car...

So...


Just did a system in my chicks 4Runner and used a a Rockford PBR300X2 to power a set of Focal KRX2's for the front stage. Sounded OK... I had an extra Audison amp left over in my collection.

So I pulled the Fosgate and threw in a Audison LRx 2.4.

Completely changed the sound of the front stage!

So I say yes there is a difference. A noticeable one! 

I could be wrong but after all this is car audio and you drive your car not the guy with the lab accurate answer. Do what makes you happy and content with your set up. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

I will leave 2 things here:

1. Echoic memory. If you don't know what this is, look it up. If you think you hear a difference in a setup that isn't an immediate (3-4 second) comparison, your comparison is invalid. You simply do not remember sound with enough accuracy to make those claims. Your psychological perception, however, will make you believe you can. 

2. Amps MUST be level matched to within 1db of each other to give a good comparison. 

So, unless you can swap amps that are level matched withing 3-4 seconds, your belief cannot be accepted scientifically. This isn't to say that amps sound the same, it's to say that all of your arguments are completely flawed. Compare them properly, or let the argument die.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Was power equal?


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

HOTT_SINCE_81 said:


> the exact speakers were pulled from my car and installed in her car...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's amazing how this is flying over your head... if you don't see the problem with this, then I'm done here

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

GiJoe just brought up a point I was going to mention, but figured that would fly over your head as well.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## theothermike (Dec 20, 2006)

i buy high end amps for build quality, aesthetic value, quality components, and cosmetics.......... 

There i said it.......

if that means a ras stimulation in my brain that if it looks better it sounds better than so be it......


----------



## HOTT_SINCE_81 (Jul 16, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> It's amazing how this is flying over your head... if you don't see the problem with this, then I'm done here
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk




Homie, your the one missing the boat... it doesn't matter where the speakers came from. I could have bought them from you or pulled them out of unicorns ass and it wouldn't change the facts. The dramatic difference was noticed with only one change. Swapping the amps.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

My point is that is wrong to expect speakers to sound the same in 2 different cars. Let alone without any tuning so it seems. And from 1 amp to another.. see gijoes post

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

HOTT_SINCE_81 said:


> Homie, your the one missing the boat... it doesn't matter where the speakers came from. I could have bought them from you or pulled them out of unicorns ass and it wouldn't change the facts. The dramatic difference was noticed with only one change. Swapping the amps.


Different cars effect acoustics differently. 
That's his point.


----------



## AyOne (Sep 24, 2016)

I like high end amps because I think they sound better. Now if that's my head convincing me of that that's okay. If I took an amp rated at the same power and installed it without changing anything else would I hear a difference? I don't know. I would probably think so just because it's not the same and I remember it being better just because it was a "nicer" amp. Which is fine but I would not pretend the only way to get that sound is with an expensive one.


----------



## HOTT_SINCE_81 (Jul 16, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> My point is that is wrong to expect speakers to sound the same in 2 different cars. Let alone without any tuning so it seems. And from 1 amp to another.. see gijoes post
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk






I clearly understand that. Aparently I'm not communicating my point very well.

There's no 2 vehicles involved here. There's only 1 veh involved


Same Car
Same Equipment 
Same Install
Same Ear
SAME EVERYTHING


Scenario 1:
Focal KRX2's running on RF PBR300X2
Sounded IMHO on a scale from 1 to 10 maybe a 6

Scenario 2:
Focal KRX2's running on Audison LRx 2.4
Sounded IMHO on a scale from 1 to 10 maybe a 9 

Only change in these two scenarios is the amp swap. PERIOD. 

NO OTHER CHANGE OF ANY KIND EXCEPT THE AMP SWAP. 

YET RESULTS WERE MUCH MORE DESIRABLE JUST BY SWITCHING THE AMP. 

I've now had 3 people re-read this and they assure me I'm not high. 

It's all good, really not a big deal. I just thought I'd contribute my experience to this thread to be an active member of the forum since a forum is only any good with participation. Let's just drop it. 

Sorry OP, didn't mean to pollute your post. Just thought I had a relevant experience to share. 






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

The Audison makes more power. Enough to gain more then a db. 
So yes it would sound better.


----------



## AyOne (Sep 24, 2016)

I would think the difference you heard was probably from the Audison being more powerful than the RF. It has a higher power rating and is probably more powerful in general.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

AyOne said:


> I would think the difference you heard was probably from the Audison being more powerful than the RF. It has a higher power rating and is probably more powerful in general.


thats ********. Actually the more power you pass through a driver means more distortion.
Output has nothing to do with sq


----------



## AyOne (Sep 24, 2016)

```

```



bassfreak85 said:


> thats ********. Actually the more power you pass through a driver means more distortion.
> Output has nothing to do with sq


It's not ********. Give a speaker more power will give you more headroom and perceivably better sound. I never mentioned playing it so loud it distorts.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> thats ********. Actually the more power you pass through a driver means more distortion.
> Output has nothing to do with sq


Ever heard of dynamic headroom?


----------



## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

FWIW I have contacted butler and they are coming out with a new tube driver, no other info given


----------



## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

bassfreak85 said:


> thats ********. Actually the more power you pass through a driver means more distortion.
> Output has nothing to do with sq


Headroom man, get on the band wagon.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

It's ok. He can hear difference in amps. 
What did you say Papermaker? Something about you going to place in a event with a head unit and some speakers?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > thats ********. Actually the more power you pass through a driver means more distortion.
> ...


dynamic headroom comes from an amps abilty to deliver dynamic output.
Power input is proportional to sound intensity. Nothing to do with sq.
Not only tgat the driver has to be able to use the dynamic input and not be driven beyond its linear capibilties.


----------



## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

Omg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> dynamic headroom comes from an amps abilty to deliver dynamic output.
> Power input is proportional to sound intensity. Nothing to do with sq.
> Not only tgat the driver has to be able to use the dynamic input and not be driven beyond its linear capibilties.



"Ive neve see two drivers respond the same in one car. that's the point. and YES drivers make a huge difference. even with a ****** pioneer CD player and no real processing ill bet i can place in a SQ comp. matter fact they have a show coming up soon..."


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

fcarpio said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > thats ********. Actually the more power you pass through a driver means more distortion.
> ...


i have a pg xenon 200.4 active on my tweeters and midrange/bass.. lol and a 3600 on the sub.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > dynamic headroom comes from an amps abilty to deliver dynamic output.
> ...


 put your money where your mouth is. You gonna take a blind bet? Be my guest


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

You beat me in the lanes? You gonna take that bet?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

AyOne said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> 
> ...


im going to have to link this **** out? The more power you pass through a speaker the more power compression and the more tge flux pathway is disrupted. This is basics on understanding loudspeakers.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> You beat me in the lanes? You gonna take that bet?


when i get a processor ill take that bet. Dont worry it wont be hard.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I thought you didn't need processing? You just need a high dollar amp and some speakers.


----------



## AyOne (Sep 24, 2016)

bassfreak85 said:


> im going to have to link this **** out? The more power you pass through a speaker the more power compression and the more tge flux pathway is disrupted. This is basics on understanding loudspeakers.


So why would you put 200w on your tweeters?


----------



## Barnaby (Aug 25, 2009)

bassfreak85 said:


> thats ********. Actually the more power you pass through a driver means more distortion.
> Output has nothing to do with sq


I've got no dog in the fight, however there is a really good video on this forum from Harman stating their findings regarding listening tests. Very interesting and may add to this conversation(certainly more than I can).


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

AyOne said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > im going to have to link this **** out? The more power you pass through a speaker the more power compression and the more tge flux pathway is disrupted. This is basics on understanding loudspeakers.
> ...


 you the one taking a out head room.. i have plenty. My systems doesnt sound better the louder it gets. Only a dumbass would think so.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> I thought you didn't need processing? You just need a high dollar amp and some speakers.


i need a good eq for level matching the channel individually.


----------



## AyOne (Sep 24, 2016)

bassfreak85 said:


> you the one taking a out head room.. i have plenty. My systems doesnt sound better the louder it gets. Only a dumbass would think so.


So someone on hear asked why his system sounded better with two different amps. The reason was more than likely the power difference giving a perception of better sound. You getting your panties in a bunch over this is comical.


----------



## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

If we could actually hear the difference, someone would have taken Richard Clark's money years ago... (ducks and runs) :-D But seriously, someone would have taken his money years ago!


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

AyOne said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > you the one taking a out head room.. i have plenty. My systems doesnt sound better the louder it gets. Only a dumbass would think so.
> ...


your theory is comical.
You can actually hear higher resolution sound. Perception can prove better sound quatitly. Power input wont make definition and resoultion higher. This has been known since the development of loudspeakers.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

BMWTUBED said:


> If we could actually hear the difference, someone would have taken Richard Clark's money years ago... (ducks and runs) :-D But seriously, someone would have taken his money years ago!


when the test is designed for you to fail..
If anyone wants to be remltly techinal thats fine be no a soul here actually seems to know anything about amplification of loudspeakers.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> your theory is comical.
> You can actually hear higher resolution sound. Perception can prove better sound quatitly. Power input wont make definition and resoultion higher. This has been known since the development of loudspeakers.


Higher output makes spatial effects easier to hear. To a point. That live show point. Now you get higher then that and ears become stressed. A good set up will sound good at 90db and 115db. That takes headroom. Headroom comes from having enough power to reach those dynamic peaks and transits while still showing the soft effects like shakers moving around, breaths, jewelry shaking.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > your theory is comical.
> ...


 do you realize what a 1w1m spec is? For example with your midrange in 88dm 1w1m that 3 watts would reach 91db. 6 would be 94, 12 97, 24 100 and a mere 50 watts 103.1?


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

So you think output gain is linear? You think music is full range pink noise?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> So you think output gain is linear? You think music is full range pink noise?


output gain? You mean sound intensity? From an amplifier stand point or a speaker? 
Its not a hard question but you cannot properly ask a specific question and use the proper wording..


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Threads like this are why this forum is a shell of what it once was.

It's amazing how much a speaker can take for short bursts. Take a 50 watt amp and a dynamic burst needs 100 watts you're gonna clip the amp.

Take a 200 watt amp (like a pg x200.4) and that 100 watt peak doesn't bring the amp anywhere close to clipping.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Threads like this are why this forum is a shell of what it once was.
> 
> It's amazing how much a speaker can take for short bursts. Take a 50 watt amp and a dynamic burst needs 100 watts you're gonna clip the amp.
> 
> Take a 200 watt amp (like a pg x200.4) and that 100 watt peak doesn't bring the amp anywhere close to clipping.


Dont forget that dynamics output is greater than contunious. Usually by 50% of total rms power so a burt could be as high as 300 and still be unclipped.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Threads like this are why this forum is a shell of what it once was.
> 
> It's amazing how much a speaker can take for short bursts. Take a 50 watt amp and a dynamic burst needs 100 watts you're gonna clip the amp.
> 
> Take a 200 watt amp (like a pg x200.4) and that 100 watt peak doesn't bring the amp anywhere close to clipping.


im sure you have seen the bench test on amps where they do the dynamic burst to 1% thd? 
They often burst 50% of total rms without clipping. Music is more dynamic then contunious. Thats where a good slew rate shines.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> im sure you have seen the bench test on amps where they do the dynamic burst to 1% thd?
> They often burst 50% of total rms without clipping. Music is more dynamic then contunious. Thats where a good slew rate shines.


Look at the dynamic test on good amps and not so good amps. You will notice they don't gain near as much on the good amps.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> output gain? You mean sound intensity? From an amplifier stand point or a speaker?
> Its not a hard question but you cannot properly ask a specific question and use the proper wording..


I mean volume. 
What you hear. Acoustic volume. The goal is to reach live concert levels. That's not to quiet.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Threads like this are why this forum is a shell of what it once was.
> 
> It's amazing how much a speaker can take for short bursts. Take a 50 watt amp and a dynamic burst needs 100 watts you're gonna clip the amp.
> 
> Take a 200 watt amp (like a pg x200.4) and that 100 watt peak doesn't bring the amp anywhere close to clipping.


Sorry, it my fault. 
I was tired of arguing with him for years about this. He has no idea what we do. 
I told him to come here and make a poll. Maybe if he heard it from others that share this goal he would get it. I guess not.


----------



## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Barnaby said:


> I've got no dog in the fight, however there is a really good video on this forum from Harman stating their findings regarding listening tests. Very interesting and may add to this conversation(certainly more than I can).


Link please.


----------



## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

bassfreak85 said:


> you the one taking a out head room.. i have plenty. My systems doesnt sound better the louder it gets. Only a *dumbass* would think so.


Once you start with the insults is because you have no base for your argument. Take a hike!


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

fcarpio said:


> Once you start with the insults is because you have no base for your argument. Take a hike!


He was expecting to come here and have everyone agree with him so he can prove me to be stupid.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Two stubborn bone heads going at it.. now that's entertainment. 

Fcarpio, someone posted the link in it's own thread the other day. I'll post it when I get to a computer

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> Two stubborn bone heads going at it.. now that's entertainment.
> 
> Fcarpio, someone posted the link in it's own thread the other day. I'll post it when I get to a computer
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


You can jump in and make it a three way. I'm joking. You've grown on me.


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

bassfreak85 said:


> i need a good eq for level matching the channel individually.


It does sound better, to a particular level. After that point the distortion will take away from the sound quality. We perceive louder as better (again, to a point). Read up on what the loudness wars did to music. If we didn't perceive louder as better, then the loudness wars would never have done what they did.


----------



## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

All tied up, 6 to 6. 
Maybe my ears are just bad from 28 years in this hobby...


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm surprised it's split. Most of the time is 75/25
Or 25/75 in this case


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

gijoe said:


> It does sound better, to a particular level. After that point the distortion will take away from the sound quality. We perceive louder as better (again, to a point). Read up on what the loudness wars did to music. If we didn't perceive louder as better, then the loudness wars would never have done what they did.


100%!Between 2 systems people always pick loudest one as better sounding. always. Unless distortion level is about 10%.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Output is a part of sound quality. If you can't play realistic levels then it doesn't matter.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

BMWTUBED said:


>


no pictures


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

OK, I think there is a way to settle this. If there is bad/good/better, then there has to be a best. My thinking is that if there truly is a best, then there would be some sort of consensus on what the best is. Well, more than a consensus, there should be a make model that is clearly the best sounding, and it will be universally accepted as such. 


So, what is the best amplifier available?


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> 100%!Between 2 systems people always pick loudest one as better sounding. always. Unless distortion level is about 10%.


total BS


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

truckerfte said:


> OK, I think there is a way to settle this. If there is bad/good/better, then there has to be a best. My thinking is that if there truly is a best, then there would be some sort of consensus on what the best is. Well, more than a consensus, there should be a make model that is clearly the best sounding, and it will be universally accepted as such.
> 
> 
> So, what is the best amplifier available?


linear power lol


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Porsche said:


> total BS


Total,huh? :laugh:


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

Porsche said:


> total BS


Not total. Generally the average listener who doesn't know better or doesn't know what to listen for will choose the louder version as the better sounding one. 

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

nineball76 said:


> Not total. Generally the average listener who doesn't know better or doesn't know what to listen for will choose the louder version as the better sounding one.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


Not just the average listener. This goes back to echoic memory, it doesn't matter if you're an average listener, or a trained ear, unless the comparison is made within 3-4 seconds, then you do not have the ability to recall audible details. This is when the amplitude plays a huge roll in what we believe to sound better.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

gijoe said:


> Not just the average listener. This goes back to echoic memory, it doesn't matter if you're an average listener, or a trained ear, unless the comparison is made within 3-4 seconds, then you do not have the ability to recall audible details. This is when the amplitude plays a huge roll in what we believe to sound better.




Not always - you can document a passage of music that your ear found faults on and write it down and note the time in the track - go back to that same passage of music and document whether you heard the same faults 

You right unless you can seamlessly switch between to amps simultaneously with no gaps or stoppages then it's unlikely you will remember what you just heard

That's why when I evaluate amps I don't really listen to the music I only listen for faults which I can distinguish... I write it down exactly what I heard and why I didn't like it 

If my notes are different at the end then there is a difference - if not then they sound the same - simple as that... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> Total,huh? :laugh:


yea, pretty much


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Elektra said:


> Not always - you can document a passage of music that your ear found faults on and write it down and note the time in the track - go back to that same passage of music and document whether you heard the same faults
> 
> You right unless you can seamlessly switch between to amps simultaneously with no gaps or stoppages then it's unlikely you will remember what you just heard
> 
> ...


To be fair, I said "recall." Referencing notes is not recollection. The argument is about memory, not reading notes.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Porsche said:


> yea, pretty much


How about I`ll pay you 10 grand if you pick your amplifier out or random 10?
But there is a catch you pay me 1 grand ahead and I`ll keep it if you don`t.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Op won't come back because nobody here can have a technical discussion on his level. 
I'm trying to get him to discribe what sound quality is and the best he can do is "accurate reproduction"


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

DC/Hertz said:


> Op won't come back because nobody here can have a technical discussion on his level.
> I'm trying to get him to discribe what sound quality is and the best he can do is "accurate reproduction"


A pic of the bunny of the year is an accurate reproduction.It looks just like her in every way on that page. 
A bot of same bunny can tell jokes, has tits that jiggle just right, and a nice warm.....Well never mind...But bunny bot is a lot more realistic.Doesnt look exactly the same, but a lot more fun.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> Not always - you can document a passage of music that your ear found faults on and write it down and note the time in the track - go back to that same passage of music and document whether you heard the same faults
> 
> You right unless you can seamlessly switch between to amps simultaneously with no gaps or stoppages then it's unlikely you will remember what you just heard
> 
> ...


i dont think you understand the limitations of echoic memory..


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

I have heard some pretty lousy sounding amps and systems. I don't believe a amp is a amp and they all do the job the same. No way.


----------



## CSEmoses (Dec 15, 2010)

the only A/B i noticed when switching amps was in home theatre. In theory both amps were doing dolby digital, so the EQ'ing shouldn't have been too dis-similar. The more powerful amp had a much much more detailed sound - where i noticed it first was the horn section of the intro menu music on LOTR dvd.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> 100%!Between 2 systems people always pick loudest one as better sounding. always. Unless distortion level is about 10%.


Oh come on........... I had a old school Nakamichi system with six PA300II amps with a pair of EC302 electronic crossovers that sounded leaps and bounds better then my buddies Soundstream system that shook the ground. 
My 900 watts was spot on and his sounded like Campbell soup cans on string. Loud yea it was loud but it was not what I call sound quality.

There is a difference and you get what you pay for....usually. Then again I was running 35 year old gear but it was extreme SQ stuff even to todays standard.
HELL YES Theres a difference !!


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Marky said:


> I have heard some pretty lousy sounding amps and systems. I don't believe a amp is a amp and they all do the job the same. No way.


I've heard lousy systems with very expensive amps. I've heard amazing systems with very cheap amps. 
The amp isn't the problem. The car is.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Marky said:


> Oh come on........... I had a old school Nakamichi system with six PA300II amps with a pair of EC302 electronic crossovers that sounded leaps and bounds better then my buddies Soundstream system that shook the ground.
> My 900 watts was spot on and his sounded like Campbell soup cans on string. Loud yea it was loud but it was not what I call sound quality.
> 
> There is a difference and you get what you pay for....usually. Then again I was running 35 year old gear but it was extreme SQ stuff even to todays standard.
> HELL YES Theres a difference !!


Yeah so nothing to do with the install or tune.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> I've heard lousy systems with very expensive amps. I've heard amazing systems with very cheap amps.
> The amp isn't the problem. The car is.


or the install. or the tune. or the speakers... i dont get why so many people dont understand that these variables exist


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> or the install. or the tune. or the speakers... i dont get why so many people dont understand that these variables exist


They don't want to. It interferes with their preconceived conclusions. There is a reason that $10k remains unclaimed after all these years. Everything matched up, no one has been able to discern a difference yet. If what all the guys who are adamant that there is a difference say is true, it wouldn't matter that it's picking the right amp 20x in a row, or once. 

The guy comparing the Nak sq setup vs the ss ground pounder is beyond belief. A Ferrari is going to whip a jacked up 4x4 on a road course every time. And in the mud the 4x will return the favor.....Different tools for different job.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

fcarpio said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > you the one taking a out head room.. i have plenty. My systems doesnt sound better the louder it gets. Only a *dumbass* would think so.
> ...


when you deny documented facts and measurable parameter. You are simply a dumbass. 
Im waiting for someone to atleast state phsyics theory or something remotly worth discussing.
The perception of sound intensity is loudness not definition. If the signal/sound is loud enough to be precived then the brain can determine what specific sound is.
Ill be glad to read a link on precived sound but as far as i know output has nothing to do with resolution. You may think it has to be 100db but you can hear as low as 1bd.

For example signal to noise ratio.
You can hear noise the 2bd of noise in a very quiet room. Most amps a weighted are 80 to 1db. So when a passage that is much lower in output is played you will hear the noise floor of said component.

S/n is a good indicator of a good sou ding amp for more reason than just noise floor.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Porsche said:
> 
> 
> > yea, pretty much
> ...





truckerfte said:


> SkizeR said:
> 
> 
> > or the install. or the tune. or the speakers... i dont get why so many people dont understand that these variables exist
> ...


Many many people have gotten 8 and 9 out of ten. Anything over 5 leads me to believe there is infact a difference.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

who want to take me up on challenge in post 113- hit me up. I need your money asap.


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> How about I`ll pay you 10 grand if you pick your amplifier out or random 10?
> But there is a catch you pay me 1 grand ahead and I`ll keep it if you don`t.


give me a break richard clark wanna be, what does this have to do with me calling your statement BS. i could careless about his "scientific" test, blah blah blah

"100%!Between 2 systems people always pick loudest one as better sounding. always. Unless distortion level is about 10%"


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

bassfreak85 said:


> Many many people have gotten 8 and 9 out of ten. Anything over 5 leads me to believe there is infact a difference.


agreed, that dude played on others 2nd guessing themselves and ear fatigue.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> who want to take me up on challenge in post 113- hit me up. I need your money asap.


where you live? 
A real test being a stereo tower with passives or you going to process everything out?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Porsche said:


> give me a break richard clark wanna be, what does this have to do with me calling your statement BS. i could careless about his "scientific" test, blah blah blah
> 
> "100%!Between 2 systems people always pick loudest one as better sounding. always. Unless distortion level is about 10%"


what break, you called my statement BS but don`t want to own it. 

If you are aware of Clark`s challenge why do you think there were no people to date collect on his offer?


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I don't think anyone has gotten over 50% on his test.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Porsche said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > Many many people have gotten 8 and 9 out of ten. Anything over 5 leads me to believe there is infact a difference.
> ...


there is a psychological phenomena that is involved when you're being tested even testing such as in Collider when things are being tested they act and function slightly differently from what they would normally function this is documented anybody can look it up


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> who want to take me up on challenge in post 113- hit me up. I need your money asap.


you build amps. Id be inclined to believe you. Im not amp designer but i have a good idea oh how they work. 
Id rather have a discussion of what means them sound identical and why we hear the differences. 
For example using a cheap cd player a d a highend one with highend decated dacs.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

You should take a look at the ABX test done on here. A whole lot of words where used but when they could see the amps all those words changed.


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

bassfreak85 said:


> there is a psychological phenomena that is involved when you're being tested even testing such as in Collider when things are being tested they act and function slightly differently from what they would normally function this is documented anybody can look it up


Just so we are clear, you acknowledge the psychological influence here, but you deny the psychological influence involved in your super scientific comparison? I just want to know when it's convenient to claim psychological influence and when not to, it could come in handy.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> where you live?
> A real test being a stereo tower with passives or you going to process everything out?


My location is on my profile..:laugh:

Anyway you want, only difference will be amplifiers. 
Matching levels will be set with tone generator and oscilloscope. then there will be simple switch between amplifiers. 
You won`t see amplifiers nor what amp is playing at the time. we gonna run your amplifier of choice against 10 of mine. if you pick yours with 100% certainty on every test i`ll give you 10 thousand american dollars. 

To participate you`ll have give me 1000 dollars before tests starts. 

your amplifier must be in good working order though..


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> what break, you called my statement BS but don`t want to own it.
> 
> If you are aware of Clark`s challenge why do you think there were no people to date collect on his offer?


seriously, you said 100% of the time people pick the loudest system, that is BS. i could careless about clarks "test", tuning and tweaking on a bench isn't real world and never has been. you believe what you want, this is America and you have that right but don't try and force feed people your opinion, have you ever done the test, i bet you haven't. i haven't either in the car world but i have many many time in the home amp market


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Porsche said:


> seriously, you said 100% of the time people pick the loudest system, that is BS. i could careless about clarks "test", tuning and tweaking on a bench isn't real world and never has been. you believe what you want, this is America and you have that right but don't try and force feed people your opinion, have you ever done the test, i bet you haven't. i haven't either in the car world but i have many many time in the home amp market



there is no tweaking- read the rules again. 
Because this is America I will express myself any legal way i want at the moment.

What is real world? you want that test done in the car?


----------



## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

Hang on guys, I need to put the garlic Parm on my wings!


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm just really glad I don't hear a difference. I'd go nuts and broke changing amps every week.


----------



## Barnaby (Aug 25, 2009)

fcarpio said:


> Link please.


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ker-auditions-head-harman-audio-research.html


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> My location is on my profile..:laugh:
> 
> Anyway you want, only difference will be amplifiers.
> Matching levels will be set with tone generator and oscilloscope. then there will be simple switch between amplifiers.
> ...


well on the bayou.
not happening.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

**** man. $10000 will easily pay that trip. Go got the magic gift so it will be easy. Then you can prove how awesome you are.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> well on the bayou.
> not happening.


You won't spend $300 for a plane ticket knowing you will be able to take his $10k with no effort?


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm sure he will be able to tell which is the most sound quality.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> You won't spend $300 for a plane ticket knowing you will be able to take his $10k with no effort?


i won't spend anything when i know the answer. and untill hes shows me the 10k its a joke..
he never said anything about parameters. a basic level match switch on a pair of stereo tower that are hifi? or in the car?
no processing


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> i won't spend anything when i know the answer. and untill hes shows me the 10k its a joke..
> he never said anything about parameters. a basic level match switch on a pair of stereo tower that are hifi? or in the car?
> no processing


So...You already know....But lack the balls to prove it.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> So...You already know....But lack the balls to prove it.


since i was 12. i'm 31. Ive't never owned cheap amps because i know better.
not all transistors are the same not all capacitors are the same not all circuits are the same. not all amps damp the driver the same. nt all drivers are the same. 
its highly noted some amps don't drive highly reactive loads well. others do. 
the list goes on..


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> since i was 12. i'm 31. Ive't never owned cheap amps because i know better.
> not all transistors are the same not all capacitors are the same not all circuits are the same. not all amps damp the driver the same. nt all drivers are the same.
> its highly noted some amps don't drive highly reactive loads well. others do.
> the list goes on..


Then the answer is obvious.....No, you don't. If you can't pick your wunderamp out of 9 other random lessors, under any reasonable circumstances, then all those fancy components mean exactly dick. 


But ****, since you already know, just tell us what the best sq amp is.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> since i was 12. i'm 31. Ive't never owned cheap amps because i know better.
> not all transistors are the same not all capacitors are the same not all circuits are the same. not all amps damp the driver the same. nt all drivers are the same.
> its highly noted some amps don't drive highly reactive loads well. others do.
> the list goes on..


You don`t Know ****! You BELIEVE that you do, that`s the problem.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

truckerfte said:


> Then the answer is obvious.....No, you don't. If you can't pick your wunderamp out of 9 other random lessors, under any reasonable circumstances, then all those fancy components mean exactly dick.
> 
> 
> But ****, since you already know, just tell us what the best sq amp is.


Well first he has to figure out what sound quality is.


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> You don`t Know ****! You BELIEVE that you do, that`s the problem.


God damn! If more people only understood the difference between knowledge and belief...


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Fancy components means more stable circuit, For circuit designed with components in mind it doesn`t matter. cheaper amplifiers can be designed properly and be indistinguishable sonically from 10 times more expensive fancy one. 

Fancy one will work 20-30 years when cheap one will die soon after warranty expired.
That`s pretty much all the difference.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Dude thinks resolution is being able to hear if a guitar is sharp or not. 
He doesn't even know what tonality is. 
But he is the god of the perfect ear.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Well I have enough McIntosh amps to choke a half dozen horses and I'm running them regardless if you guys think they are over priced foo foo. I have always believed that a sound system is as good as its weakest link. I have more then covered all my bases so we will see when I get it powered up.
Now I'm too ****en stupid to set up my Helix DSP Pro but I have that worked out from one of you guys here on the forum. Boostedrex is going to fill that void.

So I guess time will tell if I just threw money over the cliff or not.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> You don`t Know ****! You BELIEVE that you do, that`s the problem.


wheres the 10k? you want me to pick an amp out of ten? that's retarded.
get a amp wire it up to some hifi floor standing drivers set output listen.

switch amps setup output listen.


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Marky said:


> Well I have enough McIntosh amps to choke a half dozen horses and I'm running them regardless if you guys think they are over priced foo foo. I have always believed that a sound system is as good as its weakest link. I have more then covered all my bases so we will see when I get it powered up.
> Now I'm too ****en stupid to set up my Helix DSP Pro but I have that worked out from one of you guys here on the forum. Boostedrex is going to fill that void.
> 
> So I guess time will tell if I just threw money over the cliff or not.


There are plenty of reasons to spend more on an amp, sound just isn't one of them.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> Dude thinks resolution is being able to hear if a guitar is sharp or not.
> He doesn't even know what tonality is.
> But he is the good of the perfect ear.


no tone is a specific sound...
tone refers to pitch, texture, quality and intensity. pitch is measured in HZ as in the specific frequency of a sound.
aka the pitch of a trombones B flat is 600hz. the tone refers to how the picth is played and then specifically define as that individual tone. i can blast B flat with a bell on the end the pitch is unchanged but the tone has changed.

you are beyond retarted.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> wheres the 10k? you want me to pick an amp out of ten? that's retarded.
> 
> get a amp wire it up to some hifi floor standing drivers set output listen.
> 
> ...




It is because you'll fail. I don't want you anything, you say you can. I say you can't. Simple as that. Some of you only understand money talk therefore there is money involved.


Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> no tone is a specific sound...
> tone refers to pitch, texture, quality and intensity. pitch is measured in HZ as in the specific frequency of a sound.
> aka the pitch of a trombones B flat is 600hz. the tone refers to how the picth is played and then specifically define as that individual tone. i can blast B flat with a bell on the end the pitch is unchanged but the tone has changed.
> 
> you are beyond retarted.


"Commonly referred to as tonal accuracy and spectral balance, tonality is that quality of a system that gives the musical instruments their natural sound. If a saxophone is played, for example, it sounds exactly like a real saxophone, and you can tell it is not a trombone, french horn, tuba, or any other brass instrument. Likewise, any instrument has it's own characteristic sound, and a system with good tonality will allow the listener to differentiate the instruments being played. According to the Official IASCA (International Auto Sound Challenge Association) rulebook of competition, Tonal Accuracy and Spectral Balance is a combination of six characteristics---loudness, pitch, timbre, modulation, duration, and attack and decay. I won't go in-depth on each of these, but will give a brief definition: loudness-the magnitude of the sound. pitch-the quality of a sound that determines it's position on a musical scale. timbre-harmonics that give a sound it's sonic signature. modulation-changes in amplitude, phase, or frequency that occur in a sound. duration-length of time a sound is heard. attack and decay-the time it takes a sound to build-up(attack) and die-down(decay). Here is a quote from the IASCA rulebook summing the Tonal Accuracy section: "Superior systems will sound effortless and natural with any judging track. Weaker systems will exhibit distortion, unnatural coloration, dynamic compression, and frequency response errors. This leads to listening fatigue and lends an unnatural sound to the music."


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

DC/Hertz said:


> You should take a look at the ABX test done on here. A whole lot of words where used but when they could see the amps all those words changed.


If memory serves a/b amps that everyone had throbbing boners for back in the day were said to have a class d sound or just not as pleasurable and the amp that won out was a Zed Leviathan iirc. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, and probably am. I gotta be honest, when I listen to someone's system I prefer not knowing what's installed if I'm not familiar with their car. Keeps my mind open. If someone asks me what I'm running I try to remember to make them hear the system first.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> If memory serves a/b amps that everyone had throbbing boners for back in the day were said to have a class d sound or just not as pleasurable and the amp that won out was a Zed Leviathan iirc. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, and probably am. I gotta be honest, when I listen to someone's system I prefer not knowing what's installed if I'm not familiar with their car. Keeps my mind open. If someone asks me what I'm running I try to remember to make them hear the system first.


Something like that. Then when they seen the amps it all changed.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Marky said:


> Well I have enough McIntosh amps to choke a half dozen horses and I'm running them regardless if you guys think they are over priced foo foo. I have always believed that a sound system is as good as its weakest link. I have more then covered all my bases so we will see when I get it powered up.
> Now I'm too ****en stupid to set up my Helix DSP Pro but I have that worked out from one of you guys here on the forum. Boostedrex is going to fill that void.
> 
> So I guess time will tell if I just threw money over the cliff or not.


 brother I repaired more mcIntosh amps then you probably seen in your life.
They are wonderful piece of engineering/manufacturing/marketing.
they produce rated power and do that in style, style alone can justify cost.
I STILL HAVE ONE I`ll keep forever. every component was precisely matched and stayed matched in 20 years. I never seen more stable circuit. 

By today`s standard they underpowered inefficient and huge, if those parameter not important to you why you so upset what others telling you?
Why do you care? 
About every forum boner was overhyped in the last 5 years on this forum.
Sinfoni? sire- beautiful piece of italian art. is sinfoni 50 watt sound better than mcintosh 50 watt?


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> There are plenty of reasons to spend more on an amp, sound just isn't one of them.


LMFAO.............


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> wheres the 10k? you want me to pick an amp out of ten? that's retarded.
> get a amp wire it up to some hifi floor standing drivers set output listen.
> 
> switch amps setup output listen.


How is it retarded? With Clark's test you have to go 20 for 20 with an abx comparison. With Victor, you just have to pick out one of 10. ****, one in ten chance of even accidentally getting it right. For a 10 to 1 payout. 

I understand, you are scared. 

It's OK, I'll let you save face....Just tell me what the best sq amp is. Really....Just a make and model......


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> It is because you'll fail. I don't want you anything, you say you can. I say you can't. Simple as that. Some of you only understand money talk therefore there is money involved.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk Pro


where is the money? direct swap?


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Marky said:


> LMFAO.............


Care to elaborate or offer some evidence to the contrary?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> How is it retarded? With Clark's test you have to go 20 for 20 with an abx comparison. With Victor, you just have to pick out one of 10. ****, one in ten chance of even accidentally getting it right. For a 10 to 1 payout.
> 
> I understand, you are scared.
> 
> It's OK, I'll let you save face....Just tell me what the best sq amp is. Really....Just a make and model......


i don't understand why people are so stupid. choosing an amp is beyond stupid not to mention its not the point. 
im talking about swamping an amp out. a highend amp vs a budget amp. that is the discussion. not where someone can choose an amp. some amps do have very similar if not identical to the ear.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> How is it retarded? With Clark's test you have to go 20 for 20 with an abx comparison. With Victor, you just have to pick out one of 10. ****, one in ten chance of even accidentally getting it right. For a 10 to 1 payout.
> 
> I understand, you are scared.
> 
> It's OK, I'll let you save face....Just tell me what the best sq amp is. Really....Just a make and model......


i prefer feedback and amps that measure well on the bench.
lunar
arc signature
helix comp
in this case id argue you would be hard pressed to hear a difference.
lunar vs a crunch oh yea. no doubt.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> "Commonly referred to as tonal accuracy and spectral balance, tonality is that quality of a system that gives the musical instruments their natural sound. If a saxophone is played, for example, it sounds exactly like a real saxophone, and you can tell it is not a trombone, french horn, tuba, or any other brass instrument. Likewise, any instrument has it's own characteristic sound, and a system with good tonality will allow the listener to differentiate the instruments being played. According to the Official IASCA (International Auto Sound Challenge Association) rulebook of competition, Tonal Accuracy and Spectral Balance is a combination of six characteristics---loudness, pitch, timbre, modulation, duration, and attack and decay. I won't go in-depth on each of these, but will give a brief definition: loudness-the magnitude of the sound. pitch-the quality of a sound that determines it's position on a musical scale. timbre-harmonics that give a sound it's sonic signature. modulation-changes in amplitude, phase, or frequency that occur in a sound. duration-length of time a sound is heard. attack and decay-the time it takes a sound to build-up(attack) and die-down(decay). Here is a quote from the IASCA rulebook summing the Tonal Accuracy section: "Superior systems will sound effortless and natural with any judging track. Weaker systems will exhibit distortion, unnatural coloration, dynamic compression, and frequency response errors. This leads to listening fatigue and lends an unnatural sound to the music."


tonality and tone are different. kmsl

fyi i just said the same ****.. lol


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> where is the money? direct swap?


Now what?









Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

bassfreak85 said:


> i don't understand why people are so stupid. choosing an amp is beyond stupid not to mention its not the point.
> im talking about swamping an amp out. a highend amp vs a budget amp. that is the discussion. not where someone can choose an amp. some amps do have very similar if not identical to the ear.


Nope, you started the post based on "high end amps," not high end vs budget. At least be consistent with your argument.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Now what?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


damn that pic is ****ty. i see a couple hundreds.. doesn't even look real. 
im not going to pick my amp out of ten. direct swamp no processing higend amp and budget amp. 6 out of ten..


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

gijoe said:


> Nope, you started the post based on "high end amps," not high end vs budget. At least be consistent with your argument.


if you read the title it says. Do highend amps have an audible difference? really have a higher resolution. aka greater sonic accuracy..


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> damn that pic is ****ty. i see a couple hundreds.. doesn't even look real.
> im not going to pick my amp out of ten. direct swamp no processing higend amp and budget amp. 6 out of ten..


picture made on the screen of ipad showing your question as a proof, want another one? or 100 with serial numbers? question stays Then What?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> picture made on the screen of ipad showing your question as a proof, want another one? or 100 with serial numbers? question stays Then What?


exactly what the topic is. direct swamp. on hifi speakers no processing. and im not flying anywhere. it can be done locally.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

show me the money then we talk.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> exactly what the topic is. direct swamp. on hifi speakers no processing. and im not flying anywhere. it can be done locally.


 backpedalling as everyone else does.

How it can be done locally? you gonna pick your amp on youtube video?:laugh:


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

I have 4 amps going to Tricky Ricky tomorrow. I have had the stereo bug since I was 5 or 6 I suppose.
That's my workshop system with all Studio Beyma Drivers and Horns.
840 [email protected] 8 ohms courtesy of Pioneer Elite SC07

Yea I got it BAD

Cheap anything I stay as far away as possible.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Marky said:


> I have 4 amps going to Tricky Ricky tomorrow. I have had the stereo bug since I was 5 or 6 I suppose.
> That's my workshop system with all Studio Beyma Drivers and Horns.
> 840 [email protected] 8 ohms courtesy of Pioneer Elite SC07
> 
> ...


Yes but for different reasons.


----------



## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Oh hell yeah amps make a difference. It's not even debatable. Just swapping from NVX class D's to PDX class D's I found a significant difference in fidelity. Going from PDX's to XD JL's the difference was slight in fidelity but the noise floor was much better. When I upgrade again I expect the difference will be once again better. Trick is deciding what's next. Zapco Z-LX? Sinfoni? Mosconi? Soundigital GaN? Revelation Audio? The jury is out. I'm reaching the point though where the amps will be worth as much as the damn car so I'm kinda iffy based on that little detail. Haha. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> damn that pic is ****ty. i see a couple hundreds.. doesn't even look real.
> im not going to pick my amp out of ten. direct swamp no processing higend amp and budget amp. 6 out of ten..


LMAO................. That's Funny ****


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Babs said:


> Oh hell yeah amps make a difference. It's not even debatable. Just swapping from NVX class D's to PDX class D's I found a significant difference in fidelity. Going from PDX's to XD JL's the difference was slight in fidelity but the noise floor was much better. When I upgrade again I expect the difference will be once again better. Trick is deciding what's next. Zapco Z-LX? Sinfoni? Mosconi? Soundigital GaN? Revelation Audio? The jury is out. I'm reaching the point though where the amps will be worth as much as the damn car so I'm kinda iffy based on that little detail. Haha.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Hallelujah Someone with some brains .. I'm with you brother


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Marky said:


> LMAO................. That's Funny ****


I hope he went to ATM or something......


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Marky said:


> I have 4 amps going to Tricky Ricky tomorrow. I have had the stereo bug since I was 5 or 6 I suppose.
> That's my workshop system with all Studio Beyma Drivers and Horns.
> 840 [email protected] 8 ohms courtesy of Pioneer Elite SC07
> 
> ...


Aww, how cute. You have a few amps and a couple speakers.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> backpedalling as everyone else does.
> 
> How it can be done locally? you gonna pick your amp on youtube video?:laugh:


you can come down here. why should i fly and prove you wrong then go to jail when i have to take my money?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Babs said:


> Oh hell yeah amps make a difference. It's not even debatable. Just swapping from NVX class D's to PDX class D's I found a significant difference in fidelity. Going from PDX's to XD JL's the difference was slight in fidelity but the noise floor was much better. When I upgrade again I expect the difference will be once again better. Trick is deciding what's next. Zapco Z-LX? Sinfoni? Mosconi? Soundigital GaN? Revelation Audio? The jury is out. I'm reaching the point though where the amps will be worth as much as the damn car so I'm kinda iffy based on that little detail. Haha.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


 If we test NVX to check for power it makes set it 10% lower and then match ANY amplifier on your list to that power you will also fail listening test! 
wanna to take my bet? same rules.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> you can come down here. why should i fly and prove you wrong then go to jail when i have to take my money?


Because I make amplifiers longer then you exist on this planet, i have the money and I have to convince you that your religion flawed?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Marky said:


> LMAO................. That's Funny ****


if i loose that bet ill be glad to admit it and ill be buying budget Rockford gear for the next 35 years..


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> if you read the title it says. Do highend amps have an audible difference? really have a higher resolution. aka greater sonic accuracy..


Resolution comes from the source unit. Higher bit rates. Speakers that can resolve those fine details. Nothing to do with the amplifier. 
I have a fairly expensive class D amp. Do you think I have good resolution? I mean I don't have a ARC SE or nothing that special.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Because I make amplifiers longer then you exist on this planet, i have the money and I have to convince you that your religion flawed?


the thing is i can't offer you 10000 to prove they Aren't identical.
put them on a bench. that's the point of benching..


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> Resolution comes from the source unit. Higher bit rates. Speakers that can resolve those fine details. Nothing to do with the amplifier.
> I have a fairly expensive class D amp. Do you think I have good resolution? I mean I don't have a ARC SE or nothing that special.


with the processing you have i'm sure its pretty good. one you using processing and sound shaping you destroy the footprint of the amplifier.
your not hearing hte amplifier you hear the processed signal. hence why you can hear the difference because the processor is shaping the signal.. lol


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Put them on a bench? Sure. Show they all are +/-3db 20-20k at <1% thd.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Nowhere, never I said all amp created equal, but set at the level of lowest performer higher end one will be indistinguishable from it.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> when the processing you have i'm sure its pretty good. one you using processing and sound shaping you destroy the footprint of the amplifier.
> your not hearing hte amplifier you hear the processed signal. hence why you can hear the difference because the processor is shaping the signal.. lol


You mean I'm trying to eliminate the cars sonic footprint.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> with the processing you have i'm sure its pretty good. one you using processing and sound shaping you destroy the footprint of the amplifier.
> your not hearing hte amplifier you hear the processed signal. hence why you can hear the difference because the processor is shaping the signal.. lol


bassfreak, seriously, stop talking and listen instead.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> Put them on a bench? Sure. Show they all are +/-3db 20-20k at <1% thd.


thats only a very small portion of the bench measurements.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Yes but for different reasons.


What do you mean for a different reason. I have always stayed clear of cheap equipment and drivers. I remember in 1983 I bought a Sony Deck and a Alphasonic amp. They went to Nakamichi SP50 and SP10 with a pair of JBL TL100 woofers.

I then upgraded to Nakamichi PA300II amps along with a NAK TD800 and the world became whole. That system was unbelievable, it literally sounded like the band was in my truck.
Granted I had paid $300 more for the truck then my stereo. Had $3,400.00 into that stereo in 1984. Trust me that was like $15,000.00 today but it was awesome sounding.
That radio sounded better then most other radios cassettes.

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR YOU GUYS ARE WHACK


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> bassfreak, seriously, stop talking and listen instead.


the processor changes the unique sound of the amplifier. ill bet my ass on that as well.. latency etc..


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> the processor changes the unique sound of the amplifier. ill bet my ass on that as well.. latency etc..



DSP placed before amplifier, therefore whatever signal amplified shouldn`t matter?

Signal digitized, processed and converted back to analog. care explain how latency affect amplification?


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Marky said:


> What do you mean for a different reason. I have always stayed clear of cheap equipment and drivers. I remember in 1983 I bought a Sony Deck and a Alphasonic amp. They went to Nakamichi SP50 and SP10 with a pair of JBL TL100 woofers.
> 
> I then upgraded to Nakamichi PA300II amps along with a NAK TD800 and the world became whole. That system was unbelievable, it literally sounded like the band was in my truck.
> Granted I had paid $300 more for the truck then my stereo. Had $3,400.00 into that stereo in 1984. Trust me that was like $15,000.00 today but it was awesome sounding.
> ...


It didn't sound like a live band because the band wasn't recorded inside your truck. They where not recorded in a room with glass windows that reflect everything or seats that absorb everything or standing a few feet right of the microphone. No amp will magically adjust for our environment.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> You mean I'm trying to eliminate the cars sonic footprint.


the vehicles acoustics? reason you need t/a is because of the listening position.
EQ to get your drivers to play flat in the cabin and any refraction deflection etc..
you are changing the actual signal the amps reproducing to a different signal regardless of what amp you use. your reshaping the signal using the processor so its going to be really hard too hear when its processed..


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> Aww, how cute. You have a few amps and a couple speakers.


Jam IT

Odds are I live better then your sorry ass. Don't care if your a mod or not.
What kind of ******** comment is that


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> the vehicles acoustics? reason you need t/a is because of the listening position.
> EQ to get your drivers to play flat in the cabin and any refraction deflection etc..
> you are changing the actual signal the amps reproducing to a different signal regardless of what amp you use. your reshaping the signal using the processor so its going to be really hard too hear when its processed..


You do know most of what you hear in a car is a reflection?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Marky said:


> What do you mean for a different reason. I have always stayed clear of cheap equipment and drivers. I remember in 1983 I bought a Sony Deck and a Alphasonic amp. They went to Nakamichi SP50 and SP10 with a pair of JBL TL100 woofers.
> 
> I then upgraded to Nakamichi PA300II amps along with a NAK TD800 and the world became whole. That system was unbelievable, it literally sounded like the band was in my truck.
> Granted I had paid $300 more for the truck then my stereo. Had $3,400.00 into that stereo in 1984. Trust me that was like $15,000.00 today but it was awesome sounding.
> ...




you just pay for wrong reasons. 
you pay for quality of construction, not actual quality of sound. it`s perfectly legitimate reason....


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Nowhere, never I said all amp created equal, but set at the level of lowest performer higher end one will be indistinguishable from it.


oh hifi towers with no processing? you know you can hear the difference. don't ******** yourself dude. i've done it to many times..
with all due respect it doesn't take an amp guru to know that. on another noter i would pay you to teach me so i can design my own amps.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> It didn't sound like a live band because the band wasn't recorded inside your truck. They where not recorded in a room with glass windows that reflect everything or seats that absorb everything or standing a few feet right of the microphone. No amp will magically adjust for our environment.


You know what I mean. There is such a thing as a beautiful sounding system. I have had a few myself.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> oh hifi towers with no processing? you know you can hear the difference. don't ******** yourself dude. i've done it to many times..
> with all due respect it doesn't take an amp guru to know that. alother i would pay you to teach me so i can design my own amps.


To learn anything you have to free your mind....

first set parameters straight.
Why hi fi towers? I`d pick most sensitive speakers for such test.... 
pro audio.

No DSP- whatever. It doesn`t matter unless you playing vinyl..


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

bassfreak85 said:


> the processor changes the unique sound of the amplifier. ill bet my ass on that as well.. latency etc..


WHAT THE BLOODY HELL?

So we're not supposed to compensate for the sorry excuse of listening "room" known as an automobile?

It's people like you that get humbled by people that know how to tune a car audio system WITH A PROCESSOR. Even another very stubborn DIYMA member admitted he had a lot of work to do after hearing a known good car with a processor shaping the sound


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> You do know most of what you hear in a car is a reflection?


that's why i aim my tweeters at absorbent/damping materials. lol
did you know that the pressure bounding off the rear panel in the door unnaturally damps the midrange causing poor odd order harmonics?


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> you just pay for wrong reasons.
> you pay for quality of construction, not actual quality of sound. it`s perfectly legitimate reason....


I have heard a few McIntosh amps and they do have a nicer more accurate sound then a lot of amps out there.
My favorite sounding amps are:
Mcintosh
Soundstream Van Gogh
Nakamichi PA300II


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> WHAT THE BLOODY HELL?
> 
> So we're not supposed to compensate for the sorry excuse of listening "room" known as an automobile?
> 
> It's people like you that get humbled by people that know how to tune a car audio system WITH A PROCESSOR. Even another very stubborn DIYMA member admitted he had a lot of work to do after hearing a known good car with a processor shaping the sound


can you not comprehend what i am saying?
what don't you understand? 
sound shaping is unnatural in itself. is it worse than the acoustics of the room/medium more than likely not.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

bassfreak85 said:


> that's why i aim my tweeters at absorbent/damping materials. lol
> did you know that the pressure bounding off the rear panel in the door unnaturally damps the midrange causing poor odd order harmonics?


Even with those absorbent materials you still have glass causing reflections.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> that's why i aim my tweeters at absorbent/damping materials. lol
> did you know that the pressure bounding off the rear panel in the door unnaturally damps the midrange causing poor odd order harmonics?


Aiming the tweeters at absorbent material. So you are going to stick a piece of foam over the entire tweeter?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Marky said:


> I have heard a few McIntosh amps and they do have a nicer more accurate sound then a lot of amps out there.
> My favorite sounding amps are:
> Mcintosh
> Soundstream Van Gogh
> Nakamichi PA300II



in comparison how? in ABX test?


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

But a lousy H/U will wreck it all.

So will lousy drivers

Poor door prep

No Dyna-Mat in vehicle etc

WEAKEST LINK KILLS IT ALL


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> To learn anything you have to free your mind....
> 
> first set parameters straight.
> Why hi fi towers? I`d pick most sensitive speakers for such test....
> ...


sensitivity doesn't translate into low distortion ALL the time. although IT does have something to do with it it can be compensated for..

for years dan wiggins bragged on his flat b/l curve and never mention ho power compression shifts the actual motor strength.

dan if you read this don't be offended. lol


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> in comparison how? in ABX test?


Nope my ears. They should be registered with the DOLBY


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I wonder. Do you think high dollar RCAs sound better then a set of 2 channels from radio shack?


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

bassfreak85 said:


> can you not comprehend what i am saying?
> what don't you understand?
> sound shaping is unnatural in itself. is it worse than the acoustics of the room/medium more than likely not.


In your case, ignorance is bliss. It's obvious you tune your system with amps and not a processor. Why don't you enter a big competition with your best tune? I bet you come in either dead last or close to it.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Marky said:


> But a lousy H/U will wreck it all.
> 
> So will lousy drivers
> 
> ...


 NO drivers will save ****ty install in tiny vehicle....

first signal, then proper install,then drivers,only then amplifiers and wires.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> In your case, ignorance is bliss. It's obvious you tune your system with amps and not a processor. Why don't you enter a big competition with your best tune? I bet you come in either dead last or close to it.


let me pitch in on this bet?

DSP latency effect amplifier sound signature.:laugh:


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Here's the deal, you have these kick ass ears, and a kick ass amp that will give the best sq. 

Victor says you are full of it, and says you couldn't pick your amp out of 10, for $10k

You cry show me the money...He does. 

Now you are gonna cry about the place....Dude, there will be 9 other amps, power supplies, speakers, etc.....You can jump on a plane with one ****ing amp. 

I don't like Victor....No secret there....In fact he can't even see what I post unless someone quotes it. But he seems to be the true man here.


----------



## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

Marky said:


> Had $3,400.00 into that stereo in 1984. Trust me that was like $15,000.00 today .


 What inflation chart did you get this from?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Marky said:


> Nope my ears. They should be registered with the DOLBY


 Without proper switching between amplifiers your golden ears means NOTHING. one day you`ll discover this.


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Marky said:


> Jam IT
> 
> Odds are I live better then your sorry ass. Don't care if your a mod or not.
> What kind of ******** comment is that


I'm still waiting for you to elaborate on your last comment towards me, then we can go from there.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Victor_inox said:


> let me pitch in on this bet?
> 
> DSP latency effect amplifier sound signature.:laugh:


I call that "bonus time alignment":laugh:


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I while ago I bought QSC ABX comparator- very simple device that connects 2 amplifiers and two head units and a pair of speakers, then comparator calibrates sensitivity of both amplifiers with 0.1Db accuracy, then you play whatever music you want and click on buttons A or b to select what amp playing. after 20 switches comparator telling you how many times you pushed correct buttons, simple and impossible to cheat, no DSP, anything just relays switching in 20 milliseconds. 

I thought I can tell the difference between amplification before, test showed that I picked about 60% correct one. Is there a difference? how significant? why I failed 40% of the time? 
I still can hear perfectly and draw response curve by hand and be within -+3db most of the time but there is no difference between decently made amplifiers and expensive once.

Here is one example. Some of you might hear of Bolder amplifier company, makers of finest home audio amps on the market today. 50000 a side or so.
well I brought 20 years old RAMSA WP9220 2x300W amp and no one can pick it 20 out of 20. Not a single person participated. 

people who creates finest amps on the market can`t say with certainty which one is their and 20years old RAMSA I salvaged from sport center.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Victor_inox said:


> you just pay for wrong reasons.
> you pay for quality of construction, not actual quality of sound. it`s perfectly legitimate reason....



He pays so he can wave his McDick around. I believe in another thread this McIntosh and scan stuffed truck is better than 99.99o% of stereos out there.. ...But it's apparently not finished.....Or tuned....


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I call that "bonus time alignment":laugh:


 Why or why people start debating before learning how **** works.... 

Or is it a point of debate?


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> who want to take me up on challenge in post 113- hit me up. I need your money asap.




I was involved in a ABX listening test - I personally didn't partake but I watched and observed from a distance 

There was one person who got 29/30 in that test - I asked him how come he did so well and the other 10 people barely got 12/30 some got 8/30....

He said to me there is ways to listen and ways not to listen - he just learned how to listen

What I found Interesting is that he didn't even know it was a AB AND X test as he was with me collecting a battery from my house before the test

The only reason he didn't get 30/30 was because he just could not hear the one part as it was too soft and he lost focus momentarily 

So - whilst I read all these 100's of posts about how this is BS and how that doesn't exist etc etc....

There are people that have a gift and a skill to hear differences when most can't - and not so much they can't - rather they don't know how to...

I believe this guy and many others could pick out differences in any amp test so long as the amps on test have a different design architecture and use different components 

I for one can hear a difference - but I see I am the minority here....

I don't understand why people are so passionate about this topic especially in the negative. We all hear/see and smell different things to each other

Why can't people accept we can hear a difference ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> NO drivers will save ****ty install in tiny vehicle....
> 
> first signal, then proper install,then drivers,only then amplifiers and wires.


winner winner winner Agree 100%


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> I'm still waiting for you to elaborate on your last comment towards me, then we can go from there.


I Thought I was Pretty Damn Clear on THAT


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> I while ago I bought QSC ABX comparator- very simple device that connects 2 amplifiers and two head units and a pair of speakers, then comparator calibrates sensitivity of both amplifiers with 0.1Db accuracy, then you play whatever music you want and click on buttons A or b to select what amp playing. after 20 switches comparator telling you how many times you pushed correct buttons, simple and impossible to cheat, no DSP, anything just relays switching in 20 milliseconds.
> 
> I thought I can tell the difference between amplification before, test showed that I picked about 60% correct one. Is there a difference? how significant? why I failed 40% of the time?
> I still can hear perfectly and draw response curve by hand and be within -+3db most of the time but there is no difference between decently made amplifiers and expensive once.
> ...


if no one participated how do you know?

what amplifier builders have you done this test with, please name a few, i mean the finest amp builders on the market, thats a pretty *BOLD* statement. I've been in this business for 25 years and no many many of the manufactures, maybe i know a couple that you did the "test" with so i can hear there thoughts


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> I was involved in a ABX listening test - I personally didn't partake but I watched and observed from a distance
> 
> There was one person who got 29/30 in that test - I asked him how come he did so well and the other 10 people barely got 12/30 some got 8/30....
> 
> ...


 It`s hard to find a black cat in the dark room, especially if it`s not there... but possible.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Porsche said:


> if no one participated how do you know?
> 
> what amplifier builders have you done this test with, please name a few, i mean the finest amp builders on the market, thats a pretty *BOLD* statement. I've been in this business for 25 years and no many many of the manufactures, maybe i know a couple that you did the "test" with so i can hear there thoughts


 No one participated can`t pick their amp 20 out of 20. that what I said. Do you want to participate? 
You can have 10 grand if you pick 20 out of 20.

People come up with multiple explanations after the fact.

Why would I name anyone? People in the industry don`t want others to know that. their well being depends on sales..


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> It`s hard to find a black cat in the dark room, especially if it`s not there... but possible.




I must have super eyes as I can find that cat every time.... maybe because I trip over it and it bites my ankles..... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> It`s hard to find a black cat in the dark room, especially if it`s not there... but possible.


LOL.........


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> I must have super eyes as I can find that cat every time.... maybe because I trip over it and it bites my ankles.....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




you can make ****load of money participating in my and Clarke`s test....


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

You people missing one but crucial rule, amps must be calibrated the same exactly.

If ****ty amp make comparable power with the same level of distortion as high end one they will sound the same at that level.... think about it then reply. 

Close to clipping every amplifier sounds different even same model amps.


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> No one participated can`t pick their amp 20 out of 20. that what I said. Do you want to participate?
> You can have 10 grand if you pick 20 out of 20.
> 
> People come up with multiple explanations after the fact.


if no one participated than why did you mention boulder and some of the finest amp builders etc. you talk out your a55 trying to prove your intelligence about amplifier design but its all talk. why mention Boulder amplifiers, did you offer this test and they turned it down? what fine amplifier designers have you offered your test to and they turned down, you are talking about your OPINION and trying to force feed it to everyone. i truly do to understand your statements below unless you offered this test and they turned it down


"Here is one example. Some of you might hear of Bolder amplifier company, makers of finest home audio amps on the market today. 50000 a side or so.
well I brought 20 years old RAMSA WP9220 2x300W amp and no one can pick it 20 out of 20. Not a single person participated. 

people who creates finest amps on the market can`t say with certainty which one is their and 20years old RAMSA I salvaged from sport center"


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> You people missing one but crucial rule, amps must be calibrated the same exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I won't do a 10 amp challenge that's never going to work - maybe a dual between 2 - but I would like to know what amp will be used against mine and so I can see what internals it's using 

And I would like it wired my way - yours you can do what you want... 

And if you don't believe in cables - I'll use my own for my amp...

Then we are talking...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Marky said:


> I Thought I was Pretty Damn Clear on THAT


Let's recap, you made a comment about whether or not the money you spent on amps would be reflected in the way they sounded. I then commented that sound isn't a reason to spend more on an amp and your reply was "LMFAO". I took that as a dickish response but instead of immediately giving you a dickish response I asked you to elaborate. Your next response was to post a picture of your equipment instead of offering any explanation on why you thought I was wrong so I responded in a dickish way. So here we are, I'm a dick, you're a dick, we're all a bunch of dicks.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Elektra said:


> I won't do a 10 amp challenge that's never going to work -


Why wouldn't it?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> I won't do a 10 amp challenge that's never going to work - maybe a dual between 2 - but I would like to know what amp will be used against mine and so I can see what internals it's using
> 
> And I would like it wired my way - yours you can do what you want...
> 
> ...


 I pay the money I set the rules. so far I see them as legitimate to find the truth. while we at that we can crush your wire beliefs as well. all I need to know is cross section and leight. You use your own amp but let me measure it first so I can document what amp to pick against it. Then if you picked your amp 20 out of 20 I`ll pay you 10000.

You will be guessing amps blindfolded, only a and b buttons. You will not see equipment nor being able to touch it after test began.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

truckerfte said:


> Why wouldn't it?




Because you lose focus - when I buy amps and source units I like to listen for a while - also switching between so many amps and the space required to do so is unrealistic for most people unless you have a massive area and then there is the power aspect and the time it would take to undertake such a operation

It literally takes me an hour to setup 2 amps when I do it - 10 amps will take the whole day


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

ca90ss said:


> Let's recap, you made a comment about whether or not the money you spent on amps would be reflected in the way they sounded. I then commented that sound isn't a reason to spend more on an amp and your reply was "LMFAO". I took that as a dickish response but instead of immediately giving you a dickish response I asked you to elaborate. Your next response was to post a picture of your equipment instead of offering any explanation on why you thought I was wrong so I responded in a dickish way. So here we are, I'm a dick, you're a dick, we're all a bunch of dicks.


I`m too a dick and proud of it.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> I wonder. Do you think high dollar RCAs sound better then a set of 2 channels from radio shack?


You God Damn right they sound better. We just ripped a set out of my buddies Chevy truck from the H/U and under carpet back to his amp running the mids.
Those cheap ass non shielded piece of **** wire were tossed in the trash. You could hear charging hum with the engine speed.
So yea I do and he bought them at Radio Shack to be honest. 1/2 off he said. He may hang the salesman with the damn wire now.


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> Why would I name anyone? People in the industry don`t want others to know that. their well being depends on sales..


if you are going to throw around names of major players in the industry and say they cant tell there amps from others than you should have the balls to name them. you are throwing around names to give you and your test credibility but won't say who they are, seriously, i rest my case.

also, why mention buying a $50 amp that is 20 years old and making comparisons to $50k amplifiers saying there own engineers cant tell the difference, maybe its to give you creditbility so you can sell your $400 amps you build, give it rest, you are chasing your tale in circles after this

gotta go, i am flying to jupiter in the morning


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> I pay the money I set the rules. so far I see them as legitimate to find the truth. while we at that we can crush your wire beliefs as well. all I need to know is cross section and leight. You use your own amp but let me measure it first so I can document what amp to pick against it. Then if you picked your amp 20 out of 20 I`ll pay you 10000.
> 
> 
> 
> You will be guessing amps blindfolded, only a and b buttons. You will not see equipment nor being able to touch it after test began.




Why not 100 of of 100? - that sound like a Richard Clark test... 

Designed to fail...

I don't drive my car blind folded nor do I close my eyes when I listen to my system (can be very hazardous on the road) 

I'll bring my MX4 and you can bring a Lightning audio amp - since price isn't a issue it's the fact that I won't be able to pick out my MX4 - I'll bring my Audioquest Sky RCA you can use that **** that comes with a cheap home CD player - since cables don't make a difference 

Do you think I won't be able to pick out my amp? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Porsche said:


> if you are going to throw around names of major players in the industry and say they cant tell there amps from others than you should have the balls to name them. you are throwing around names to give you and your test credibility but won't say who they are, seriously, i rest my case.
> 
> also, why mention buying a $50 amp that is 20 years old and making comparisons to $50k amplifiers saying there own engineers cant tell the difference, maybe its to give you creditbility so you can sell your $400 amps you build, give it rest, you are chasing your tale in circles after this
> 
> gotta go, i am flying to jupiter in the morning


 Why anyone credibility should be into consideration, nobody listened so far and without money to be made no one will anyway.
I`m trowing real money into my credibility, not people who wish not to be named.
If you take a test and you`ll lose I`ll keep your name out as well, it`s not my face to lose. 
I don`t build 400 amplifiers, mine is significantly more expensive.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Elektra said:


> Because you lose focus - when I buy amps and source units I like to listen for a while - also switching between so many amps and the space required to do so is unrealistic for most people unless you have a massive area and then there is the power aspect and the time it would take to undertake such a operation
> 
> It literally takes me an hour to setup 2 amps when I do it - 10 amps will take the whole day
> 
> ...


Set up time and space is Victor's problem, not yours. 

It seems to me that if these un named super amps were so ****ing superior, it wouldn't be any challenge to pick yours out of 9 others. 

If it's that damn close of a difference for golden eared gods that they have to have such concentration, and perfect conditions to tell the difference(although no one but Vic seems to be standing up) then there really isn't a difference in any practical meaning. 

I'm still waiting for someone in the know to tell me what the ultimate sq amp is. And the gods if car audio can't tell me what that is.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Why not 100 of of 100? - that sound like a Richard Clark test...
> 
> Designed to fail...
> 
> ...


 Mx4- wonderful, I`ve had that.. what I bring should be no importance to you you say you can pick yours.... It won`t be more expensive than Brax. it will make more power though and it will be D class. fair enough?
and again cables will be the same to make that test clean. then we can test cables if you want, for another 1000 bucks.


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> I`m trowing real money into my credibility, not people who wish not to be named.
> If you take a test and you`ll lose I`ll keep your name out as well, it`s not my face to lose.
> I don`t build 400 amplifiers, mine is significantly more expensive.



so again, are you saying you have done this test with boulder and other fine amp manufactures and they couldn't tell a difference, total BS and you know it.

have you ever done this test with anyone credible that you can name, please name one person that we may have heard of. I'm dyng to hear a name or 2. your brother, wife, 12 year old kid do not prove anything.

you mention the money, have you ever had it on the line?

i could careless about sitting in a room for hours while you play your mind games and i doubt anyone of importance has as well, please name one that can back up what you say


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

truckerfte said:


> Set up time and space is Victor's problem, not yours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If I tell what the ultimate amp is - it will be my opinion over someone's else's - who do we trust?

Just buy whatever you can afford and get it properly tuned 

I think everyone here will agree with that....

Ultimate amps need ultimate speakers which needs ultimate source which needs ultimate install and ultimate tuning 

Which equates to a **** load of cash..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Porsche said:


> so again, are you saying you have done this test with boulder and other fine amp manufactures and they couldn't tell a difference, total BS and you know it.
> 
> have you ever done this test with anyone credible that you can name, please name one person that we may have heard of. I'm dyng to hear a name or 2. your brother, wife, 12 year old kid do not prove anything.
> 
> ...


 Why don`t you participate, it only gonna tell a few minutes actually. not whole day. there simple pushing buttons and seeing your result at the end. 
people who participated knew dangers of that information made public and we agreed I`ll not disclose anyone without their consent.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> If I tell what the ultimate amp is - it will be my opinion over someone's else's - who do we trust?
> 
> Just buy whatever you can afford and get it properly tuned
> 
> ...



Now we getting somewhere..... 
I was in your position for decades, you can see my posts on this very board supporting your position. 

Opinion not based on scientific evidence worth ****. Scientific statistical evidence shows no difference can be positively identified between amplifiers of comparable specs. end of story. there is another reasonS for buying amplifiers. Some of them legitimate- some not so much.


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> Why don`t you participate, it only gonna tell a few minutes actually. not whole day. there simple pushing buttons and seeing your result at the end.
> people who participated knew dangers of that information made public and we agreed I`ll not disclose anyone without their consent.


like i said i call total BS and if some of these folks want to believe this BS your spew than good for them.

however, if you aren't going to name names than you really shouldn't be throwing around names of products etc to gain credibility

by the way, you have time for me to tell you about the heavyweight champ of the world i knocked out a few weekends ago in a bar fight. or how about the super model i am dating now?:laugh:


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Porsche said:


> like i said i call total BS and if some of these folks want to believe this BS your spew than good for them.
> 
> however, if you aren't going to name names than you really shouldn't be throwing around names of products etc to gain credibility
> 
> by the way, you have time for me to tell you about the heavyweight champ of the world i knocked out a few weekends ago in a bar fight. or how about the super model i am dating now?:laugh:


 Perhaps i shouldn`t, is money not good enough reason to prove your point of view? 
Why does it makes you so mad is the question though. do you have a dog in this fight? Please prove me wrong or express your opinion and don`t get late to that flight to Jupiter.


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> Perhaps i shouldn`t, is money not good enough reason to prove your point of view?
> Why does it makes you so mad is the question though. do you have a dog in this fight? Please prove me wrong or express your opinion and don`t get late to that flight to Jupiter.


i don't need your money, just don't like people telling people a bunch of BS, I'm not mad, i think you are comical and again i would almost guarantee you have never done this scientific test for $10k

you have zero credibility when you throw out claims of a $50 dollar amp being equal to $50k amps and never did a test and would be willing to bet you have never heard the boulder amps. you are trying to get fans and customers looking out for them so they don't waste there money


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Elektra said:


> If I tell what the ultimate amp is - it will be my opinion over someone's else's - who do we trust?


You mean this while thread is over someone's opinion, not any form of proof? 

Holy ****....LOL.....So, since mchardon for Mac rich ***** has his opinion then to him they are the best. 

Your dog in the fight is the best....

And the other guys is too. 


I'll be damned. 

Everyone is convinced in the superiority of their pick. But not confident enough in their pick, or their ears, to back it up against another....


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Porsche said:


> i don't need your money, just don't like people telling people a bunch of BS, I'm not mad, i think you are comical and again i would almost guarantee you have never done this scientific test for $10k
> 
> you have zero credibility when you throw out claims of a $50 dollar amp being equal to $50k amps and never did a test and would be willing to bet you have never heard the boulder amps. you are trying to get fans and customers looking out for them so they don't waste there money



So, you don't have the balls to show up for yourself either....So that makes you more credible how? 


****. I can't believe I'm defending Victor.....Everyone else is talking ****, and making excuses. 

He's sitting there with a pile of money waiting for someone to put their ears where their mouth is. 

Wanna guess who I find more credible?


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> Let's recap, you made a comment about whether or not the money you spent on amps would be reflected in the way they sounded. I then commented that sound isn't a reason to spend more on an amp and your reply was "LMFAO". I took that as a dickish response but instead of immediately giving you a dickish response I asked you to elaborate. Your next response was to post a picture of your equipment instead of offering any explanation on why you thought I was wrong so I responded in a dickish way. So here we are, I'm a dick, you're a dick, we're all a bunch of dicks.


You get what you pay for its pretty damn simple as I see it. I have used lots of different gear over my 35 years of actively buying stereo equipment. 

Cheap **** is just that. 

All of you that thin a cheap Audiovox amp can compete with a Sound Stream or McIntosh are sadly needing your ears tested by a physician. Because if you cant hear the difference I pity you.

Not saying your a dick but when I feel like Ive been kicked in the ass I always respond.
I don't care if come from Jesus himself I'll tell him where to go too.

No Harm No Foul

Cheap **** SUCKS

How's that for a ending to this ********


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Porsche said:


> i don't need your money, just don't like people telling people a bunch of BS, I'm not mad, i think you are comical and again i would almost guarantee you have never done this scientific test for $10k
> 
> you have zero credibility when you throw out claims of a $50 dollar amp being equal to $50k amps and never did a test and would be willing to bet you have never heard the boulder amps. you are trying to get fans and customers looking out for them so they don't waste there money


 You got it backward actually. I`m 30 minutes away from bolder amps. I want bolder amps to sell their amps instead of crap sold as best thing since music were invented, they build unbelievably good product that would be last amplifier anyone will ever need.

How much do you want to bet that I've had that test performed?
Most importantly why not enyone here want to collect 10 grand if they so sure they can pick their amp 20 out of 20 times. 

I`d take your money with pleasure. 

I despise cheap **** equipment and always want my customers to have best value for their money. top dollar equipment is not always fit that goal. 
As of me?.. don`t you worry about me, I `m booked for foreseeable future..


Considering lousy sales on this site i dont give a flying **** unlike people who actually sell stuff here or involved in the industry. 
How anyone depended on sales in audio industry will ever admit their sometimes cheating money out of the people? 
You actually call it credibility.... I see. 
Now I don`t have a fly to Jupiter in the morning but have to setup a venue in the afternoon.
Respectfully good night!


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

I'm not afraid to dump money into Hi-Fi equipment not one bit. I have over $6,000.00 into my shop stereo system and probably $15,000.00 into my trucks stereo system.

I also have a $3500.00 stereo up at my cabin. I'm like a alcoholic when it comes to stereo systems. My wife has learned to live with it. Then again its not very often she climbs into my truck. 

My POINT to this was pretty obvious to me NO CHEAP AMPS I don't buy that they all sound the same because they DON'T !!!!!!!!!!!
GOT IT NOW BIG MOD GUY


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Marky said:


> I'm not afraid to dump money into Hi-Fi equipment not one bit. I have over $6,000.00 into my shop stereo system and probably $15,000.00 into my trucks stereo system.
> 
> I also have a $3500.00 stereo up at my cabin. I'm like a alcoholic when it comes to stereo systems. My wife has learned to live with it. Then again its not very often she climbs into my truck.
> 
> ...


 Amen!


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

That goes for you too VICTOR


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Marky said:


> I'm not afraid to dump money into Hi-Fi equipment not one bit. I have over $6,000.00 into my shop stereo system and probably $15,000.00 into my trucks stereo system.
> 
> I also have a $3500.00 stereo up at my cabin.


It must really suck to have so empty a life. Your expertise seems to be writing checks, and you won't waste a single opportunity to tell us that.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

truckerfte said:


> It must really suck to have so empty a life. Your expertise seems to be writing checks, and you won't waste a single opportunity to tell us that.


Yea its real empty but the stereos are great


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Marky said:


> That goes for you too VICTOR



I`m scientist you are believer- we never going to agree on anything. 


I wanted to give you guys a way to make yourself more knowledgeable but you prefer to stay in denial to protect your beliefs. 

Nothing can be done about that..... Amen. 
P.S.
whoever deside to take me on my offer i`m still around.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

truckerfte said:


> It must really suck to have so empty a life. Your expertise seems to be writing checks, and you won't waste a single opportunity to tell us that.


I don't only have lots of equipment its all top of the line stuff. Not ashamed one bit. I can go on how well my life is but I don't want to make you feel like the piece of **** looser you really are.

Nobody writes checks anymore except to the IRS


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Marky said:


> I don't only have lots of equipment its all top of the line stuff. Not ashamed one bit. I can go on how well my life is but I don't to make you feel like the piece of **** looser you really are. You pathetic ****


People often buy stuff to feel good about themselves, you obviously do.
that`s what matters. 
would you buy this if you don`t know how much it cost or who made it?
Hint it will run circles around that "Elite" of yours.


----------



## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

Mods please ban for spelling loser wrong. Thanks


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

truckerfte said:


> You mean this while thread is over someone's opinion, not any form of proof?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well my opinion is proof enough - to me.... since I am the one listening to it then my opinion is all that matters.... right? 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Well my opinion is proof enough - to me.... since I am the one listening to it then my opinion is all that matters.... right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Absofuckinglutely! It`s your time and money, if you want to invest it that way more power to you.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Absofuckinglutely! It`s your time and money, if you want to invest it that way more power to you.




100%.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Marky said:


> I don't only have lots of equipment its all top of the line stuff. Not ashamed one bit. I can go on how well my life is but I don't want to make you feel like the piece of **** looser you really are. You pathetic ****
> 
> Nobody writes checks anymore except to the IRS


I see more money in amps in your avatar than I probably make in a year but you're the one that's getting childish. What's wrong with this picture? There's nothing wrong with buying a decent quality amp that will get the job done without costing an arm and a leg. Once you start getting way up there in price the law of diminishing returns starts to kick in hard. If a $500 amp is 80% of what a $2000 amps is, MOST people will choose the $500 amp because they have more important things to spend money on. 

EVERYONE HAS DIFFERENT PRIORITIES.


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Marky said:


> I'm not afraid to dump money into Hi-Fi equipment not one bit. I have over $6,000.00 into my shop stereo system and probably $15,000.00 into my trucks stereo system.
> 
> I also have a $3500.00 stereo up at my cabin. I'm like a alcoholic when it comes to stereo systems. My wife has learned to live with it. Then again its not very often she climbs into my truck.
> 
> ...


Got it, you're only proof is the amount of money you've spent. We're all really impressed dude.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Elektra said:


> Well my opinion is proof enough - to me.... since I am the one listening to it then my opinion is all that matters.... right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Depends....If your opinion works for you and your car, great. But if your opinion(and by that I mean anyone) makes it to a forum where such things are discussed, then you should be able to have some basis, and willingness, to back it up. Some guys have the opinion that brand x is best, or that their ears are y good. And that automatically makes them correct. When challenged instead of putting up, they find reason after reason not to. In extreme cases they lash out at others on a personal level.....marky boy has done it at least twice now. 

Fortunately, guys like him don't bother me. He's just a blowhard who uses insults instead of facts. Or feels the need to pacify his shortcomings with buying cool ****, then bragging about it at every opportunity. And more insults to anyone who points out his douchebaggery. 

Mainly I let it go because I've got the one thing all his money and toys can't compete with....A giant penis.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

truckerfte said:


> Depends....If your opinion works for you and your car, great. But if your opinion(and by that I mean anyone) makes it to a forum where such things are discussed, then you should be able to have some basis, and willingness, to back it up. Some guys have the opinion that brand x is best, or that their ears are y good. And that automatically makes them correct. When challenged instead of putting up, they find reason after reason not to. In extreme cases they lash out at others on a personal level.....marky boy has done it at least twice now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The forum covers opinions and facts we all entitled to something 

Audio is very vast and has many different facets - it's like religion 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

truckerfte said:


> Mainly I let it go because I've got the one thing all his money and toys can't compete with....A giant penis.


Lots of confidence can be had when you have a giant hawg:laugh:


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> People often buy stuff to feel good about themselves, you obviously do.
> that`s what matters.
> would you buy this if you don`t know how much it cost or who made it?
> Hint it will run circles around that "Elite" of yours.


It looks like something Tru-Technology would make on steroids. What's the specs on that Lucky Item.

I no doubt have soundsystems as a hobby weakness call it what you want. I'm always looking at what's the sweet sounding setup. I have been dragging my ass on my truck install because I'm afraid of the Helix DSP PRO and Director setup. It's past my pay scale.
I'm a freaking Pipe Fitter in the fire protection business. I may be a dumb construction worker that hates computers but l love music.
I'm a Union dumb Pipe Fitter at least .................................

I have Trickyricky upgrading amps and another guy on the forum that's agreed to setup something I know NOTHING about.
I used electronic crossovers up to 2015  They served me well

That's why I put living in the past. Its where I belong lol


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> Got it, you're only proof is the amount of money you've spent. We're all really impressed dude.


You my friend can POUND SAND 

Your nothing but a TROLL


----------



## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

3500? I wish I could find a pair of listenable interconnects for that.




Marky said:


> I'm not afraid to dump money into Hi-Fi equipment not one bit. I have over $6,000.00 into my shop stereo system and probably $15,000.00 into my trucks stereo system.
> 
> I also have a $3500.00 stereo up at my cabin. I'm like a alcoholic when it comes to stereo systems. My wife has learned to live with it. Then again its not very often she climbs into my truck.
> 
> ...


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Elektra said:


> The forum covers opinions and facts we all entitled to something
> 
> Audio is very vast and has many different facets - it's like religion
> 
> ...



Like the Russian said, believer vs scientist. 

Some people confuse fact and opinion. Marky thinks his hearing should be registered with Dolby. That's his opinion. I guarantee he won't show up at vics, prove it, and then it would become fact. 

The magic bus guy claims the best mobile system in the world. That's opinion. When he shows up and wins some trophies, then it becomes fact. 

Uber amp x can have people with the opinion that it is the best ever. Opinion until someone, or even better, many someones, can pick it out of a sonic line up with 9 other amps. 

All I hear is excuses about impossible odds, over what should be a straightforward test. If your amp choice us superior, then picking it once, 20, or 100 times should be child's play.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> So here we are, I'm a dick, you're a dick, we're all a bunch of dicks.


#DicksOutForHarambe


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> Elektra said:
> 
> 
> > The forum covers opinions and facts we all entitled to something
> ...


Ok watch this. Lets see the results.

Amp specks like damping factor slew rate, imd, thd, s/n ratio dont matter if they all sound the same?

Now all the sq guys that voted no list you amps.
Kmsl..
That is a memory based test. 
Critical listening between two or even three amps proves there is an audible difference. You be stupid to pick out 1 amp after listening to ten different amp with limited time. Its not even a remotely logical or legit test..


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

truckerfte said:


> Like the Russian said, believer vs scientist.
> 
> Some people confuse fact and opinion. Marky thinks his hearing should be registered with Dolby. That's his opinion. I guarantee he won't show up at vics, prove it, and then it would become fact.
> 
> ...


Maybe not really Registered with Dolby my left ear is a bit tone deaf from the Rigid pipe machine after 32 years of that thing growling. But I can still pic apart sound quality flaws in the blink of the eye.
Now I would like to see this setup your talking about.

I fully understand how you can make a cheap set of drivers sound nice in the perfect enclosure. I wish I was in Vics area I would love to learn something new.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Um, marky, that button means thank you, not **** you....Senior moment?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> Elektra said:
> 
> 
> > The forum covers opinions and facts we all entitled to something
> ...


sq is a baised test with one or two people. Harly can claim the best.

You record the waveforms in car and overlap them with the orginal recordings waveform then you can talk ****.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

truckerfte said:


> Depends....If your opinion works for you and your car, great. But if your opinion(and by that I mean anyone) makes it to a forum where such things are discussed, then you should be able to have some basis, and willingness, to back it up. Some guys have the opinion that brand x is best, or that their ears are y good. And that automatically makes them correct. When challenged instead of putting up, they find reason after reason not to. In extreme cases they lash out at others on a personal level.....marky boy has done it at least twice now.
> 
> Fortunately, guys like him don't bother me. He's just a blowhard who uses insults instead of facts. Or feels the need to pacify his shortcomings with buying cool ****, then bragging about it at every opportunity. And more insults to anyone who points out his douchebaggery.
> 
> Mainly I let it go because I've got the one thing all his money and toys can't compete with....A giant penis.


That's something to be proud of.........But it never happened without pictures.

I'm a old man I have bought stereo gear over a lot of years you Putz.I actually take that back, truce on the word slinging. 

I am one that strongly believes you get what you pay for. It's worked well for me my entire life in the stereo side of things. Not bragging one bit


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Marky said:


> You my friend can POUND SAND
> 
> Your nothing but a TROLL


Still no proof, just hot air. If you knew 1/10 of what you think you do you would be beating Victor's door down to take his money.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

ca90ss said:


> Marky said:
> 
> 
> > You my friend can POUND SAND
> ...


what you running money?


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> Still no proof, just hot air. If you knew 1/10 of what you think you do you would be beating Victor's door down to take his money.


Do you need me to ship you that bucket of sand and single jack ?


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

i'll put 20 on victor. anyone up for some bets in the first annual douche bag sound off?


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

truckerfte said:


> Um, marky, that button means thank you, not **** you....Senior moment?


It was a Thank You


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Marky said:


> Maybe not really Registered with Dolby my left ear is a bit tone deaf from the Rigid pipe machine after 32 years of that thing growling. But I can still pic apart sound quality flaws in the blink of the eye.
> Now I would like to see this setup your talking about.
> 
> I fully understand how you can make a cheap set of drivers sound nice in the perfect enclosure. I wish I was in Vics area I would love to learn something new.


So you admit your hearing is flawed. This alone makes you less credible in your ability to pick out sound quality flaws.

I hope you're not confusing "cheap" with "inexpensive". Cheap is just plain junk. Inexpensive is something of at least decent quality that's priced fair.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> You record the waveforms in car and overlap them with the orginal recordings waveform then you can talk ****.


So, put the amp in the worst environment possible, and record that to compare to the original? 

You are ****ing kidding, right?


And didn't you say earlier this evening that you ears were good enough to tell? Oh yeah, the same post about Dolby registration....But you have already backed off of that one. 


As far as pics of my dick....My response to that would include a 3 letter word that would get me banned....


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

bassfreak85 said:


> Now all the sq guys that voted no list you amps.


Focal FPD 6.900 and Kenwood XR 600-1 in one car and 2 Arc xdi 1200.6 and Soundstream USA 180 in the other with ~100 other amps give or take a few in the closet ranging from Genesis, Monolithic, Sony Xes etc. to Boss, Pyramid and Pyle.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

You would be hard pressed to find someone that loves music more then I do.

I have worked my butt off for everything I have including stereo gear. I do my diligent research and go from there. But that MOD can still kiss my ass

If Vic was in my area I would love to see what hes got going on.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> You record the waveforms in car and overlap them with the orginal recordings waveform then you can talk ****.


its official.. there is no hope for you


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > You record the waveforms in car and overlap them with the orginal recordings waveform then you can talk ****.
> ...


You have me confused with someone else.
Who said anything about "bad conditions" 
Is sq comps there is no real "sound quatitly" measurments we can compare to except what a "trained ear" can distinguish. Thats about as flawed as "facts" can get. You record the output waveform in car and compare to the orginal. Its the REAL way to see how accurate tge reproduced waveform is.

Im not saying critical listening is a bad idea but 80% is critical listening and its just not as accurate.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

****, I think I am getting all the dicks in here mixed up.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > You record the waveforms in car and overlap them with the orginal recordings waveform then you can talk ****.
> ...


so wod take my word but not a REAL actual recording of the reproduction of the recording do you can actually analize it and prove that the response it infact more accurate?
If you say no your living in fagville usa


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> ****, I think I am getting all the dicks in here mixed up.


i like to clown but i made this post to have a good techinal discussion.
Im not gonna tell you what to post idc. But if we going to discuss lets do it with fact or atleast theory.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> If you say no your living in fagville usa


I think that included the 3 letter instaban word. 

Or did that only apply to the gay marriage thread a while back?


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> so wod take my word but not a REAL actual recording of the reproduction of the recording do you can actually analize it and prove that the response it infact more accurate?
> If you say no your living in fagville usa


wrong! i do live on deepthroat drive though


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > If you say no your living in fagville usa
> ...


fagville is a place for idoits to touch each other egos.

I dont care. People call me many names. Dont see me crying..


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> So you admit your hearing is flawed. This alone makes you less credible in your ability to pick out sound quality flaws.
> 
> I hope you're not confusing "cheap" with "inexpensive". Cheap is just plain junk. Inexpensive is something of at least decent quality that's priced fair.


I'm going to be 53 May 1st hell yes my ears are not what they were when I was 16.
But my right ear is 100% and left has lost a fair share of the high frequencies. 

Lets see you pull on 36" pipe wrenches all day to make a living. Ill tell you one thing you wont beat me at arm wrestling or anything physical. You become shaped like a light bulb after 10 years of this crap and I've been doing it 32 years now. I do have a piece of Titanium holding my neck together tho.
Yea I earned my money with hard work. I have the God given right to do things that I enjoy.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> fagville is a place for idoits to touch tips.


fixed..





Marky said:


> Lets see you pull on 36" pipe all day to make a living.


damn, you must be from this fabled fagville


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > fagville is a place for idoits to touch tips.
> ...


hey i was guessing. Appartly you know the facts. I was on the rumor train..


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> I was on the bone train..


word? you and marky should meet up in fagville and touch tips


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > I was on the bone train..
> ...


you know you are weak when you have to lie on ur dickkk. Lol


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> fixed..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh man I have to tell you to go screw yourself too


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Marky said:


> Oh man I have to tell you to go screw yourself too


is that code for you asking to touch tips with me?


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> word? you and marky should meet up in fagville and touch tips


You guys are more then I can handle for one night. Sleezer go cry your ugly ass to sleep you *****.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I didn't vote yes or no because my answer is "it depends". The poll makes me assume we're comparing something from Walmart to something really high end that for the most part is worth the cost in one way or another. As for what I'm running, it's in my siggy and the refurbished JL amp is showing its ass. Since I have a local dealer and still want to stay in that 400ish range for each amp I'm looking hard at dropping in a pair of PG XS 800.4's. Basically, I want my local dealer to be there for me if I have any problems under warranty.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Marky said:


> You guys are more then I can handle for one night. Sleezer go cry your ugly ass to sleep you *****.


i probably will now that you called me a *****


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I didn't vote yes or no because my answer is "it depends". The poll makes me assume we're comparing something from Walmart to something really high end that for the most part is worth the cost in one way or another. As for what I'm running, it's in my siggy and the refurbished JL amp is showing its ass. Since I have a local dealer and still want to stay in that 400ish range for each amp I'm looking hard at dropping in a pair of PG XS 800.4's. Basically, I want my local dealer to be there for me if I have any problems under warranty.


When we can have a techinal discussion ill explain my theory. 
Not a soul has taken the challange.
Just someone supposedly offering 10 with a stupid scheme that work prove nothing.

Killer part is he builds amps. You would think he could use some physics to explain. He builds off the wall amps tgat he claims are the "best sounding hes heard" but comes in this thread trying to troll me. Ive scored high enought to be accepted into mensa. Hes not fooling me i assure you.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> Marky said:
> 
> 
> > You guys are more then I can handle for one night. Sleezer go cry your ugly ass to sleep you *****.
> ...


Logic. ***** can take a pounding and recover. Compliment you just arent sharp enought to make the cut..


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

bassfreak85 said:


> When we can have a techinal discussion ill explain my theory.
> Not a soul has taken the challange.
> Just someone supposedly offering 10 with a stupid scheme that work prove nothing.
> 
> Killer part is he builds amps. You would think he could use some physics to explain. He builds off the wall amps tgat he claims are the "best sounding hes heard" but comes in this thread trying to troll me. Ive scored high enought to be accepted into mensa. Hes not fooling me i assure you.


But you think a dsp causes more harm than good in a vehicle?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Killer burn!! Oh my..


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> i like to clown but i made this post to have a good techinal discussion.
> Im not gonna tell you what to post idc. But if we going to discuss lets do it with fact or atleast theory.


Fair enough. 

This is audio, and the thread is titled asking about audible
Differences. Not specs, wave form comparison, or any such thing, correct? 

We have to remove variables, in this case, the biggest one being car, install, drivers, etc. We want to compare amps operating within their design limits. More specifically, to the same output level. How many watts are you really pushing at normal listening levels? Ever since I was a teenager reading Car Audio on the ****ter I've read it to be 7-10 watts, but I won't swear to that. We aren't here to test how the amp sounds being driven into clipping, or maxed out. That's a whole other thread, and I'm thinking the tubes would win that one. 

Anyway, comparing level matched amps abx style is as good as you are going to get. Will there be an audible difference under these conditions? 

I've already said I thought that there could be, but personally I find it irrelevant, I listen in a moving car 99% of the time. 

I'm starting to change my opinion

The self appointed golden ears are adamant that there is a difference. Cool. They can hear, and more importantly, listen far better than I can( my reason for attending the iasca judge classes next week) . 

The Russian comes in and makes his challenge, I thought in a more interesting form than the Clark challenge, picking your amp out of 10 random amps. I think he did some math on that one, and changed it to a Clark style challenge. It's still valid. 

Now, if the guilded ears are now saying it's impossible, I'm skeptical. If the differences are so minute that it takes immense concentration and effort to tell the difference, for these trained ears, then the pipe fitter or truck driver with damaged hearing don't have a hope in hell of making a decision. 

If well trained ears can't tell reliably, every time in lab conditions, which amp is which, then there isn't a difference. 

So the original question...

In a lab with golden ears, maybe, but it hasn't been proven yet, and the differences, if any, are razor thin. 

In a lab, with those of us who are less gifted....No

Anyone in a car sitting in the driveway...No

Anyone in a car driving down the road .....No ****ing way. 

Enjoy your Macs, tru's, lunars, and linear powers if ya got them. Like the man said, if you bought them, sound wasn't the reason why.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> Logic. ***** can take a pounding and recover. Compliment you just arent sharp enought to make the cut..


you must not be doing a good enough job if it can recover


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > When we can have a techinal discussion ill explain my theory.
> ...


No. 
Understand. No speaker in tranisantly perfect because of resonance and impedance phase shifts and inductance.
When i say inductance thats electrically mechanically and acoustically.
Every driver has a unique distortion footprint.
Acoustic causes havoc of many thinks like phase, transiant response, to much to list.
That being said processing corrects alot of this BUT its not perfect. Eveny slope change shifts impedance back emf damping etc. 
Anytime you have to adjust to make it sound more natural has consequences.
If the shift in phase inproves transiant response more then not you are going to get a more realistic sound.

But understand i can take a shiity ass 100x4 and process it so much that the bandwidth and damping etc can be "patch" to make it sound decent. Like taking a shiity fullrange driver and using it with a limited bandwith where its actually decent and claming its a highend driver.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Like bose does.. lol


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

bassfreak85 said:


> Ok watch this. Lets see the results.
> 
> Amp specks like damping factor slew rate, imd, thd, s/n ratio dont matter if they all sound the same?
> 
> ...




I have to agree - 2 amps should be the limit... after all you don't have 10 different amps in your car? Or do you? 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > Logic. ***** can take a pounding and recover. Compliment you just arent sharp enought to make the cut..
> ...


stop while you are behind a few points. You can't win.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Elektra said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok watch this. Lets see the results.
> ...


This is my theory.
Once the amps design surpasses tge human limit your not going to hear a difference. I deal with reactive loads all the time. If you have i highly reactive load like a high output wide band driver playing seceral signals at one where it moves in the gap alot its much harder for tge amp to control not only sending tge signal but tge negitive feedback as input changes and after the signal decays.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

bassfreak85 said:


> This is my theory.
> Once the amps design surpasses tge human limit your not going to hear a difference. I deal with reactive loads all the time. If you have i highly reactive load like a high output wide band driver playing seceral signals at one where it moves in the gap alot its much harder for tge amp to control not only sending tge signal but tge negitive feedback as input changes and after the signal decays.




Sorry - off topic - are you using a Android device to type these messages....?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> Ive scored high enought to be accepted into mensa. Hes not fooling me i assure you.


Lol, all it takes to get into MENSA is proof of a test score over 132 on the old scale, 100 on the new scale, and send them $75. 

I didn't need to send some club $75 bucks to affirm I'm smart. 

I really hate it when people bring up "Mensa qualified" but aren't Mensa members as if it proves a ****ing thing. 

I would bet 3/4 of the people in this thread could be MENSA qualified. 

The other 1/4 are golden eared audiophiles.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Elektra said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > This is my theory.
> ...


yes. I also am a terrible speller. Forgive me. I have a terrible memory but compershion and problem solving skills i am bare none excellent.. lol


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > Ive scored high enought to be accepted into mensa. Hes not fooling me i assure you.
> ...


incorrect
I have test results to prove it.. lol
You cannot get "in" with a iq of 132. More like 140+


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

bassfreak85 said:


> yes. I also am a terrible speller. Forgive me. I have a terrible memory but compershion and problem solving skills i am bare none excellent.. lol




Just asking because I noticed "tge" a lot and when I swopped to LG recently it did that all the time - it annoyed me so much I went back to IPhone....

Seems to be a Android problem...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> incorrect
> I have test results to prove it.. lol
> You cannot get "in" with a iq of 132. More like 140+


if you brag about one more thing i swear your **** is gunna get so small its going to start coming out your rear end


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Elektra said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > yes. I also am a terrible speller. Forgive me. I have a terrible memory but compershion and problem solving skills i am bare none excellent.. lol
> ...


Yea. I try to correct it but i get tired of it. Lol. Im not a great writer. I assume others have the comperhension i do so i often back pedal to reiterate coupled with the terrible structure and grammar its irritating.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> incorrect
> I have test results to prove it.. lol
> You cannot get "in" with a iq of 132. More like 140+


Really...Go look again....132 Stafford Binet test gets you in..148 on the Cattrell scale....It's not like it's some secret... 

You sir...Are full of ****....


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > incorrect
> ...


first off. There are several ways.
One being if you score in tge top 2% in the nation on a national standarized test. Which i have several times.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

bassfreak85 said:


> Yea. I try to correct it but i get tired of it. Lol. Im not a great writer. I assume others have the comperhension i do so i often back pedal to reiterate coupled with the terrible structure and grammar its irritating.




Switch to IPhone and have typing bliss.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Elektra said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > Yea. I try to correct it but i get tired of it. Lol. Im not a great writer. I assume others have the comperhension i do so i often back pedal to reiterate coupled with the terrible structure and grammar its irritating.
> ...


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > incorrect
> ...


the seakers i built/designed in my car are awesome.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> first off. There are several ways.
> One being if you score in tge top 2% in the nation on a national standarized test. Which i have several times.


Then send in your $75 and make it official. Stop being a poser. What you are doing here is the equivalent of wearing Harley shirts and boots, but have never thrown a leg over a bike. You are right, there are several ways...Just send in your scores on your shrinks letterhead, and a check, quickest way. 

You want to take a step back and think that maybe there is a reason I know this?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > first off. There are several ways.
> ...


i think i will. But your going to say i lied.
Actually i need to get my scores and they have to be notorized and signed accordling. So yea the 75$ isnt an issue its the trouble. The bad part is what i do wont change. If i coul make more moneynid be all over it. I already hold plenty of certifications for what i do.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > first off. There are several ways.
> ...


i corrected you. I didnt say you didnt know. I can't read you mind money.
I just said i knoe people who are and they tell me i should join for proof and prestige but i know im intellegant and i know my flaws. I just mention it when people question me. Trust me i know. Matter fact i want you to verify my claims. If im wrong ill gladly correct it. 
You see im nt like many people. Intellegant people form a theory. Test it till verification and then spread what they have experienced to for a unified logical theory. Im always open to input. Just the right input


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> i think i will. But your going to say i lied.
> Actually i need to get my scores and they have to be notorized and signed accordling. So yea the 75$ isnt an issue its the trouble. The bad part is what i do wont change. If i coul make more moneynid be all over it. I already hold plenty of certifications for what i do.


That card gets you nothing but bragging rights with the local chess club. 

And it damn sure doesn't mean a thing here, so...Why did you feel the need to even bring up MENSA as if it is relevant to this thread?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > first off. There are several ways.
> ...


i probably will. Granted i dont need to to varify. I know, the system knows. Anyone who engages me can tell.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > i think i will. But your going to say i lied.
> ...


Why? You should have known. 
I asked for a techinal discussion. 

No one engaged. No one. Just claims and outlandish bets thats would end up in jail time.. lol
Im pound to have come from one of the worse schools and places and was able to excell while not attending school. 
Why mention it? Because if i didn't i wouldn't be smart enought to know what im capible of. Just this conservation proves my point. You varified i was correct on my claims because i CAN qualify. 
Most peoples logic even if i had my cert would say its ********. Id rather make tgem looks like a fool. No better proof!


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > i think i will. But your going to say i lied.
> ...


I'm going to correct you again. My comperhension and problem solving skills dorectly relate to understanding the subject. 
Not only that once i understand i can usualy figure out the pros and cons and improve things. From logic in a program to winding low inductace coils and designing a feedback circuit to control traditional transducers to adjust mechanical damping resistance altering resonace and having lower feed back greatly increasing transiant response..


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

You corrected me...Or so you thought...Yes, 132 does get you in....Google doesn't require Mensa membership to use. No need to be a mind reader either....Just stupid silly little fact. 

And I'm going to circle back ot, since it's sort of relevant. 

Fact....Several people contend that amps sound different. 
Fact...No one has won Richard Clark's money, and thousands have tried. If the contention that amps sound different held true, at least ONE person would have succeed. 
Fact..Not one of you has accepted the VI test, in either version.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> You corrected me...Or so you thought...Yes, 132 does get you in....Google doesn't require Mensa membership to use. No need to be a mind reader either....Just stupid silly little fact.
> 
> And I'm going to circle back ot, since it's sort of relevant.
> 
> ...


so now the discussion is why it isnt a valid test? Or is that enough to prove so? I have proof the test is not accurate and is unfair.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> You corrected me...Or so you thought...Yes, 132 does get you in....Google doesn't require Mensa membership to use. No need to be a mind reader either....Just stupid silly little fact.
> 
> And I'm going to circle back ot, since it's sort of relevant.
> 
> ...


you said i was full of ****. I said try 140+. I was correct.
I then i guess reminded you that there was other ways. You admitted i was correct again. So now what is the issue?


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> so now the discussion is why it isnt a valid test? Or is that enough to prove so? I have proof the test is not accurate and is unfair.


Because he requires 20 of 20 accuracy? If you have golden ears, and a **** amp vs quality, then that shouldn't even be a hint of a challenge. I didn't look it up, but iirc, Clark let you bring damn near whatever you wanted to the table. 

Maybe because Clark is putting up his own money, he wants a repeatable result? 1000 monkeys pushing the buttons is going to eventually get it right 10/10 at some point by accident. 

The fact that guys are crying that it's too hard is a red flag for me. They want to bring it down to a game of chance. 

If x is superior to y, then it should be able to be picked out in an abx test every time. No one has been able to do it yet. I don't see what is flawed. 

And that's on the bench....Perfect conditions . If guys can't tell the difference there, how can they possibly do it in a car?

Makes me think....Perhaps a 20 try test in the lab, followed up by 20 in a car. We already know that perfect isn't going to happen. But...Can the guy who gets 13 of 20 on the bench do as well in the car? That would be more interesting to me. 


What has blown over everyone's head is that if there are any differences at all, they are so minute that it really makes no practical difference at all in the real world big picture. And immediately disappear the second you touch any knob in the car.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > so now the discussion is why it isnt a valid test? Or is that enough to prove so? I have proof the test is not accurate and is unfair.
> ...


do more reasearch. Come back and we will discuss.
Hint. Bypassing and inducing a signal have one linear virable. 
Not to mention getting ten out of 10 when you are being tested in very specific conditions is about the same probably as alien life forms existing.
The mental aspects alone can make one answer flawed.
Logically if someone gets 6 of ten there is a good chance he can hear the difference. 7 8 but 9 of ten under those condidtions. Im convinced.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Loom at the test cloesly i have . Even the most critical listeners would have trouble. Its simple not a fair test.
Its one then to defeat crossovers. Fine tgat kills any irruglar phase shift and eliminates poor damping. But when you adjust the signal its much harded.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> you said i was full of ****. I said try 140+. I was correct.
> I then i guess reminded you that there was other ways. You admitted i was correct again. So now what is the issue?



What you said was 132 wouldn't get you in. And followed it up with you had to be 140+


You are wrong. But if you can't bring yourself to type MENSA in the search bar, I've got nothing for ya. 

And before you go there, 148 Cattrell, 132BS, whatever scale you are using, is going to be the same point on the curve....Water boils at the same point doesn't matter if you call it 100c or 212f. 

I would like to believe you are above trying to play semantic games like that. 

And again , it has **** all to do with how amps sound.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> do more reasearch. Come back and we will discuss.
> Hint. Bypassing and inducing a signal have one linear virable.
> Not to mention getting ten out of 10 when you are being tested in very specific conditions is about the same probably as alien life forms existing.
> The mental aspects alone can make one answer flawed.
> Logically if someone gets 6 of ten there is a good chance he can hear the difference. 7 8 but 9 of ten under those condidtions. Im convinced.


The mental aspects are part of the problem. If you have to put THAT much effort into it, the difference is negligible. 

Can the guy who scores 7 if 10 achieve that score reliably and repeatedly? Say 7 of 10 tests?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > you said i was full of ****. I said try 140+. I was correct.
> ...


The test consist of different formulas to derive "IQ" they also have different scales as well as a different type of analization of what they see as "intellegance" 
I told you i know for a fact it was 140+ its the most common testing standard.
I also told you the other option.

If you think that doesnt correlate to anything including this subject you shluld develope you own testing tat is more accurate and logical..


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > do more reasearch. Come back and we will discuss.
> ...


Im not going to answer. Look around. People stopped trying because the test isnt logical.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

edited...Wrong answer to wrong question


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > do more reasearch. Come back and we will discuss.
> ...


fyi. I tale what you say to thought. In reality you still havent provided any argument as to the why.
Lets focus on that. Not a flawed test.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> Jesus you ****ing Mensa retard....They stopped because it's 430 in the ****ing morning, lol.


researh shows im drink and don't sleep at night. Then again im not a docter so tread lightly..


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

You kiddies still at it? You're gonna wake the neighbors!


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> You kiddies still at it? You're gonna wake the neighbors!


i am the Neighbors. Dammit..


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Lol...Dude...You are trying way too hard. 

The Mensa thing....It's the top 2%....No matter what the scale.....You are bending **** to make it work the way you want it to. 

There is no point in a discussion of transformers, high end this or that, how defeating a crossover affects what, or any of the other **** you've said. It doesn't mean **** if the internals are a warp core drive or a ****ing singing hamster. What matters is what is heard coming out of the speaker. How it happens is irrelevant. You are trying to take things to the nth degree, that in the end don't matter. 

Once that signal leaves the ass end of the amp, does it sound same or different as the amp sitting next to it? 

Measurements of the speaker vs the original recording don't matter. Measurements of one amp vs the other didn't matter.....Is the sound distinguishable o e amp to the other? 

So far, with test after test, I have seen nothing to prove that a human can tell the difference, reliability and repeatedly. 

Get me a group of 100 people that can score 7 of 10 seven of 10 tests, and maybe you will have a sample group to start some kind of reliable testing protocol. 

Why the **** did I waste my time with this thread?


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> You kiddies still at it? You're gonna wake the neighbors!


This is last day of your vacation, right? Then I can have the internet back to myself. 


I have been in a total time warp since the surgery last week. Day, night, has no meaning anymore....But it came with some really cool pills.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Im trying to hard? Ok. Check it out if i give you the actual test results you give me 500 dollars? All ******** aside. Not once but twice. All i have to do is get the results from my school. I scored to 2%. Why do in need to take a iq test when standarized testing proved im closer to 160?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> Lol...Dude...You are trying way too hard.
> 
> The Mensa thing....It's the top 2%....No matter what the scale.....You are bending **** to make it work the way you want it to.
> 
> ...


again your semantics dont prove anything. 1 out of 3 million have a high enough iq to even understand sai testing. Lol.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> Im trying to hard? Ok. Check it out if i give you the actual test results you give me 500 dollars? All ******** aside. Not once but twice. All i have to do is get the results from my school. I scored to 2%. Why do in need to take a iq test when standarized testing proved im closer to 160?


Holy ****. I'm not even sure where to start with that one, lol. I wonder what's gonna go through your mind when you read all this after you dry out? 

****, now I need a drink


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> Lol...Dude...You are trying way too hard.
> 
> The Mensa thing....It's the top 2%....No matter what the scale.....You are bending **** to make it work the way you want it to.
> 
> ...


so explain why me and countless others say otherwise.
Again. Science isnt a question of opinion.
Id like to set up real world test. Of all kinds and have the physics to back it.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Its funny how one test convinced everyone to a result but no one said lets understand what why how and what if? Thats pretty insane and unintelligent.
Its like out running a bear and saying bears are inferior.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > Im trying to hard? Ok. Check it out if i give you the actual test results you give me 500 dollars? All ******** aside. Not once but twice. All i have to do is get the results from my school. I scored to 2%. Why do in need to take a iq test when standarized testing proved im closer to 160?
> ...


again. Excuses. Dude i could be drunk and talk ur girl into a 3way with me and another girl..


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Oh and before u call bs.. easy i get her drunker than me.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> so explain why me and countless others say otherwise.
> Again. Science isnt a question of opinion.
> Id like to set up real world test. Of all kinds and have the physics to back it.


First, understand that I personally really don't give a ****. Either way. 

.....I wrote some ****....Then erased it. 

It doesn't matter
Barring some breakthrough that the scientists come up with that doesn't make the believers cry, it's never going to be finished. 

Using the closest to science tests we have now, there just isn't any proof that amps sound different. 

The believers are going to have their opinions, without being able to back it up with anything but stories. They will cry foul at any attempt to prove or disprove their opinions for any number of reasons

The scientists are going to have their tests, and math and **** to back it up. I happen to lean closer to this group. Because numbers mean more to me than stories. But, they will never "win" either...Because in spite of what they know, they just can't shout over what the believers feel. 


0 winners Richard Clark challenge....I don't care if you don't like the method...If you can hear the difference, you can prove it....Repeatedly. no one has. 

O takers VI challenge. The believers are throwing a fit instead of showing up and proving their ****.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> again. Excuses. Dude i could be drunk and talk ur girl into a 3way with me and another girl..


You don't want to go there.....Mine wears a collar instead of a ring for a reason....


And with that....I'm done...


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > so explain why me and countless others say otherwise.
> ...


The science says we cant? 
Consider this
Testing shows amps are superior.

Testing shows some amps are better. Measurabilly and some considerabilly 
Flawed sq comps show that more times than not highend gear wins.

Electronics and electrical theory shows that certain circuits measure better in test parameters and those same amps win more often than not.

Lets get down to it. Lets take each measurment and correlate it to real world testing..

Why is it that systems with highend amps win yet no budget amps win?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > again. Excuses. Dude i could be drunk and talk ur girl into a 3way with me and another girl..
> ...


Kmsl. Said ever married man.. you c as not win. You arent smart enough.
I can provied actual proof. I can link you research on the subjects.. fyi its 3rd party..


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> Why is it that systems with highend amps win yet no budget amps win?


You sure about that?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > Why is it that systems with highend amps win yet no budget amps win?
> ...


 8 of 10.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Oh my.. whos next someone that can get techinical please.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

What do you mean who's next? What have you done that's productive besides avoiding a challenge that would prove everything? 
Did you ever figure out what sound quality even is? Or is it just what you call resolution that you are not even using right.


----------



## Hemi007 (Mar 7, 2017)

DC/Hertz said:


> Op is a self proclaimed golden ear and wants to argue until everyone agrees with him. He thinks his ears are a calibrated NASA spec o-scope.


That is some funny sh*t!! His ears must be burning about now? :laugh:
The worst part is the 'freaks spelling is so atrocious you can't understand what the hell he is sayin . . . 

[Kmsl. Said ever married man.. you c as not win. You arent smart enough.
I can provied actual proof. I can link you research on the subjects.. fyi its 3rd party..]

Huh??


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Hemi007 said:


> That is some funny sh*t!! His ears must be burning about now? :laugh:
> The worst part is the 'freaks spelling is so atrocious you can't understand what the hell he is sayin . . .
> 
> [Kmsl. Said ever married man.. you c as not win. You arent smart enough.
> ...


part of the short summary of this thread is that OP claims he may be on an autistic 4 year olds spelling level, but swears he has an IQ over 140.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> its official.. there is no hope for you


That hope lost sometimes yesterday.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Give home some credit. He's a bit better then my 4 year old.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Since we talking amps - somehow went to dicks and then IQ...

Let's bring it back to amps - so what's the best specs you have all seen on a amp like THD , IMD and SNR...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> Im trying to hard? Ok. Check it out if i give you the actual test results you give me 500 dollars? All ******** aside. Not once but twice. All i have to do is get the results from my school. I scored to 2%. Why do in need to take a iq test when standarized testing proved im closer to 160?


 Show me your Mensa certificate and i`ll show you mine you lying ****.

Yes I`ll give you $500 if it`s legit.

and BTW standarized spelled wrong.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> Since we talking amps - somehow went to dicks and then IQ...
> 
> Let's bring it back to amps - so what's the best specs you have all seen on a amp like THD , IMD and SNR...
> 
> ...


that would be relevant if all companies measured them the same..


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Since we talking amps - somehow went to dicks and then IQ...
> 
> Let's bring it back to amps - so what's the best specs you have all seen on a amp like THD , IMD and SNR...
> 
> ...


 THD depends on many factors, mentioning THD without nominal power is meaningless. I have amp with 0.000015% at 10 watt but 1% at 200.
does it sounds better than say 0.1% at 10 watt but 10% at 200? 

it does but you can`t heat it up to about 180W. oscilloscope can. 
What those numbers telling me is that 1st amp designed better. Not much else.

That 275watt in your MX4 does not sound any different up about 250W with any other decent amp on the market. 

Circuit design perfected in the last few decades to the point where great results can be had cheaper than before. AF don`t give a **** if you buy MX4 or helix competition series, they make more money on helix anyway. 

I`d rather buy 5 competitions then one MX4 ( I`ve had a few all sold here.

Is MX4 better? absolutely! Does it matters for sound quality? No it is not!
It matters for looks, your self esteem and pretty much nothing else.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> that would be relevant if all companies measured them the same..




True - but Brax has been known to be accurate on there specs - also they provide the measured spec sheets with the amps...

Others are based on what you read in there manuals which can be a little off..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> that would be relevant if all companies measured them the same..


We can remeasure amplifiers. Just not with SMD amplifier dyno, please.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Easiest way is to look at the numbers and pick based on that, if will give one piece of mind if not anything else.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> THD depends on many factors, mentioning THD without nominal power is meaningless. I have amp with 0.000015% at 10 watt but 1% at 200.
> 
> does it sounds better than say 0.1% at 10 watt but 10% at 200?
> 
> ...




I have the A2 , A4, A6 and NOX4DSP they don't come close to the MX amps.... 

But once again it's my opinion... and that only counts as mine alone...

Yours is also yours and yours alone...

Personally I would rather have a MX4 and 2 MX2's for a 4 way active setup than 6 Helix comp amps - why because space, power and design are in favor of the Brax amps 

If I wanted a decent system without too much spend - I'll rather buy a Helix P6 DSP and a Helix 1000 SPL amp and hide them away somewhere.. 

Retain most of my trunk space...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> True - but Brax has been known to be accurate on there specs - also they provide the measured spec sheets with the amps...
> 
> Others are based on what you read in there manuals which can be a little off..
> 
> ...


sorry, not everyone has brax


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> I have the A2 , A4, A6 and NOX4DSP they don't come close to the MX amps....
> 
> But once again it's my opinion... and that only counts as mine alone...
> 
> ...


 Compairin 275 and 100W amps is retarded. one with more power will have less THD at the same power. Their circuit design is very similar.
You can hear black cat in the dark room if you wish so. 
I`m glad people like you exist- it gives us money to live. Please keep buying exceptional equipment.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> sorry, not everyone has brax


You do. and a good measured one at that.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> sorry, not everyone has brax




True.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> True....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


feel special?
Great! That's the point.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> You kiddies still at it? You're gonna wake the neighbors!


Kids are up and kicking......


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Compairin 275 and 100W amps is retarded. one with more power will have less THD at the same power. Their circuit design is very similar.
> 
> You can hear black cat in the dark room if you wish so.
> 
> I`m glad people like you exist- it gives us money to live. Please keep buying exceptional equipment.




But you said you would rather have a bunch of competition amps than a MX4? 

Audiotec Fischer probably measures all there products the same way...

So if a Competition amp has let's say a THD of 0.01 and a SNR of say 105dbs then the Brax MX and even the GE amps are way ahead at 121dbs and 0.0001...

They also have much more capacitance built in - how are they similar? 

There boards are completely different? 

I am afraid you pay for that level of development... 

Don't you agree? 

How much more work will it take for you to build a amp with the MX specs compared to what you have already? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> feel special?
> 
> Great! That's the point.




I do thanks...









I also appreciate what they are designed to do...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> I do thanks...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


how many times are you going to share that photo today?


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> how many times are you going to share that photo today?




Just twice...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> But you said you would rather have a bunch of competition amps than a MX4?
> 
> Audiotec Fischer probably measures all there products the same way...
> 
> ...


 You can`t hear distortion on such levels. YOU JUST CAN NOT, and you people refuse to take 10 grand of my money to prove it to yourself. 
Why would I downgrade what I have right now? 
You do pay for looks as you don`t understand anything else.
Level of refinement doesn`t mean circuit is different. 
Implementation is.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> how many times are you going to share that photo today?


Let him be happy, really. He is materialist (edited) that believe his possessions makes him better.

why do you care. 

My take on it is every retard can get good sound spending that much, it`s much harder to get similar result with lower budget. 


I sold all my high end amplifiers on this very board for that exact reason. Challenge is much more satisfying.
and to add to that, not everyone has time and desire to learn proper things.
If I make $300 an hours why would I spent 1000 hours learning **** if It`s just easier to throw money at it and be proud of yourself? 

It has been multiple studies showing that as main reason people buy stuff.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> You can`t hear distortion on such levels. YOU JUST CAN NOT, and you people refuse to take 10 grand of my money to prove it to yourself.
> 
> Why would I downgrade what I have right now?
> 
> ...




I would take you up on your offer...

But distance is a issue...

And I don't like your terms of the exercise...

Nobody said sell everything and buy this...? 

It's a discussion - I just so happen to have these products - I am most certainly not going to sell to buy something else

In for a penny in for a pound - as they say..

You may not be able to hear those levels of distortion but as the amp goes up in power the so does the THD - if the Brax is rated 0.0002 at 8vrms then at 20v it's probably at 0.01% 

Take a amp at 0.01 at same 8vrms it's probably at 2% at 20v or even higher 

So at low volumes most amps probably sound the same or similar - but at higher output the one who keeps everything in check better will ultimately sound the best 

Since we all use at least 80+ rms give or take the Brax at that output will sound better 

The Brax will sound better than most amps at 100+ rms as most amps will be heading to there max distortion levels and THD levels and at There lowest SNR 

But if you want to test a amp at 8v at home against another - I'll say the difference will be harder to pick out - but not impossible 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Let him be happy, really. He is materialist schmuck that believe his possessions makes him better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I take offense to being called a smuck... that's very presumptuous as you don't know me or what I do...

If insulting people is your game then great...

I have not insulted anyone here - I have given everyone here the respect they all deserve I don't ask of anything of anyone but to give me the same respect..

We having a educated discussion here - I don't insult you or your products...

I have saved up worked my ass off to be able to have things I am proud to have - just because it's out of some people's reach doesn't mean you can assume anything about me... 

It's typical poor mans syndrome - meh who needs a Ferrari my Toyota does the same job... 

But does it.... 

And no I am not rich... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

There is people much closer to me still refusing to take on challenge.....
What in your opinion flawed in 20 millisecond switching between amps? 
Much better then say 30 second when you see what switched to what. 
Any not double blind test means ****, any!
I don`t care either way, I don`t need their money, just speaking your people language.

If you can hear rosin falling off violin bow more power to you.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> I take offense to being called a smuck... that's very presumptuous as you don't know me or what I do...
> 
> If insulting people is your game then great...
> 
> ...


 Sorry about schmuck. I`ll edit that. 
You damn right about poor man syndrome though..

You can`t insult what you don`t have or it would be pointless.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Sorry about schmuck. I`ll edit that.
> 
> You damn right about poor man syndrome though..
> 
> ...




No prob..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Funny you mentioned a toyota....
Do you think Lexus is any different?

Lexus was created for US market in the first place so people would feel good having upscale vehicle but without econobox image. Image is Everything!


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Funny you mentioned a toyota....
> 
> Do you think Lexus is any different?
> 
> ...




Lexus IS the luxury arm of Toyota - they supposed to be built with more attention to detail - I believe when they first went to the US market they were the only brand that had the least amount of quality issues after 100k miles 

Dunno about them now - I am more a BMW man...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I have another idea though....
How about I`ll take one of the MX4, dismount all guts, put my own design in it and you`ll pick which is which? Probability would be 50/50 so you`ll have to pick 10 out of 10. 
You can`t touch either amp though..... you can observe setup and use your own wires if you want.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

A Lexus here is a Toyota in Japan.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Lexus IS the luxury arm of Toyota - they supposed to be built with more attention to detail - I believe when they first went to the US market they were the only brand that had the least amount of quality issues after 100k miles
> 
> Dunno about them now - I am more a BMW man...
> 
> ...


 I owned a few BMW and MB, I`ll take lexus over any of them.
they were and still is better made vehicles. 
people still buying badges though. 

vehicle before my current 4runner was MB AMG. 95 thousand dollars piece of crap!. Traded it in with 70% loss of value.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DC/Hertz said:


> A Lexus here is a Toyota in Japan.


and just about everywhere else but states.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Something I've noticed. 
People that spend a ton on amps and speakers are never happy for more then a few weeks. Once the new wears off they are looking for the next best thing. 
But those that only spend what is needed and spend on the right things are happy for a long time.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

DC/Hertz said:


> A Lexus here is a Toyota in Japan.




Don't think so - There model line up is different - they don't have the Corrolla - I would assume there IS models is the same in terms of mid sized sedan

The quality in the Lexus IS better than Toyota not sure if they share engines 

Like I said I am more of a BMW guy... did the Toyota thing years ago - drove the new corrolla when I needed a rental - it's nice but it's no 3 series


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> I have another idea though....
> 
> How about I`ll take one of the MX4, dismount all guts, put my own design in it and you`ll pick which is which? Probability would be 50/50 so you`ll have to pick 10 out of 10.
> 
> You can`t touch either amp though..... you can observe setup and use your own wires if you want.




Why on earth would you do that..? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Why on earth would you do that..?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 To prove to you that you will not consistently pick that brax out of comparable duo.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> To prove to you that you will not consistently pick that brax out of comparable duo.




I have satisfied the amp and cable debate long ago.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## truckguy (Sep 2, 2013)

Elektra said:


> Just twice...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How is it possible to have that much money wrapped up in amps and the room the picture is taken in looks like it's from a free house given to a refugee. At least pick up a little and get the clothes off the bed. Sell one of those amps, buy a new stand, get some new towels, and repaint the room.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

truckguy said:


> How is it possible to have that much money wrapped up in amps and the room the picture is taken in looks like it's from a free house given to a refugee. At least pick up a little and get the clothes off the bed. Sell one of those amps, buy a new stand, get some new towels, and repaint the room.




Maid wasn't in...

Sorry amps were cheap house wasn't... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Elektra said:


> Don't think so - There model line up is different - they don't have the Corrolla - I would assume there IS models is the same in terms of mid sized sedan
> 
> The quality in the Lexus IS better than Toyota not sure if they share engines
> 
> ...


It's not like that. It's the same car as the Lexus with a Toyota badge and a different name. Just like Acura, they are hondas in Japan


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

truckguy said:


> How is it possible to have that much money wrapped up in amps and the room the picture is taken in looks like it's from a free house given to a refugee. At least pick up a little and get the clothes off the bed. Sell one of those amps, buy a new stand, get some new towels, and repaint the room.


Priorities.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

DC/Hertz said:


> It's not like that. It's the same car as the Lexus with a Toyota badge and a different name. Just like Acura, they are hondas in Japan




Like I said I don't know Lexus and Toyota - I would assume they share parts but I would assume they are different in a number of ways 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> Like I said I don't know Lexus and Toyota - I would assume they share parts but I would assume they are different in a number of ways
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


image. price. thats about it. but thats what gets you a chubby, so i guess theyre different


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

DC/Hertz said:


> Priorities.




Wow... now you concerned about the house I live in?

I drive 2 bmws both my twins go to private schools - we have no debt above normal debt I go on holiday twice a year 

I have policies for my retirement I have private medical aid - what Exact are my priorities owning a mansion? 

Get real... 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

damn, a few things on the bed and your giving him a hard time. i wonder what you guys would say about my bedroom lol


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Don't think so - There model line up is different - they don't have the Corrolla - I would assume there IS models is the same in terms of mid sized sedan
> 
> The quality in the Lexus IS better than Toyota not sure if they share engines
> 
> ...


 Don`t think, know so. many toyota vehicles shared power train with lexus branded cars. 

Do you think engine in Tundra any different than say Lexus GX580 ? 
Or 3.5 engine in camry not the same in 3.5 lexus?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> I have satisfied the amp and cable debate long ago....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, opinions , not facts...


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Don`t think, know so. many toyota vehicles shared power train with lexus branded cars.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes but is it the same design? Does it have the same quality build? Are there not some creature comforts that the other doesn't have or you have to pay for that comes standard in the other? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Yes but is it the same design? Does it have the same quality build? Are there not some creature comforts that the other doesn't have or you have to pay for that comes standard in the other?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What is same design? Bore and stroke? Yes it`s the same.
engine management software? you can bet your ass on that.
Peripherals such as alternator- sure is. 
creature comfort depends on creature. I hate leather seats.... 

Let`s imagine another hypothetical scenario, shall we?

Say Hyundai bought BMW and rebadged avery car on the lot overnight, would you buy that vehicle? It`s still made by BMW but doesn`t have that glorious badge no more....


----------



## LostnEye (Feb 18, 2016)

Elektra said:


> Yes but is it the same design? Does it have the same quality build? Are there not some creature comforts that the other doesn't have or you have to pay for that comes standard in the other?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Being a "BMW man" is fine if that's what you like, but just stop commenting like you know what you're talking about.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I dunno about quality, I`ve seen 4 runner with half a million miles on the clock, I`ve seen lexus with the same. 

quality really matters if average new car buyer does that every 3 years?


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> What is same design? Bore and stroke? Yes it`s the same.
> 
> engine management software? you can bet your ass on that.
> 
> ...




Have you stripped a Lexus and the comparative Toyota model? Do they have the same spec interior? Do they have the same spec insulation? Are the list of standard specs between the 2 exactly the same? 

Does the corrolla come with sat Nav? It doesn't here...

You not making sense - is a Picasso that same as a street painter? Both use canvas both use oil paints? 

Don't you think design holds a certain value? Is the warranty the same on both cars? 

You saying there is no difference between the two? 

Is one not put together better than the other? If not how do you know? Have you personally seen them being built? 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

LostnEye said:


> Being a "BMW man" is fine if that's what you like, but just stop commenting like you know what you're talking about.




What exactly are you talking about? I said I don't know - but I can assure you I know quite a lot about cars..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Have you stripped a Lexus and the comparative Toyota model? Do they have the same spec interior? Do they have the same spec insulation? Are the list of standard specs between the 2 exactly the same?
> 
> Does the corrolla come with sat Nav? It doesn't here...
> 
> ...


I`m not saying there is no difference between the two, you desperately looking for a way out..... I`m saying that there is not enough differences to sub brand it. it`s still a toyota. Not for Image seeking people.... 
They share as many parts as possible without compromising that perceived image.
So would you buy rebadged BMW? don`t answer that I know you won`t. 
You`ll consider resale value and ****.... Now drop the price to hyunday level and now deal looks much more appealing...


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Lexus IS. 
Best Value Used TOYOTA altezza for Sale | BE FORWARD


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

A moth ago I drove two different cars 2014 mercedes C300 and 2017 civic turbo.
civic cost half of that of MB and I liked it better. it`s faster and has more bells and whistles than MB.... MB is softer on the road, interior space is about the same...Stock stereo sounds better in MB.
Cars belong to my friends family, she will die for image, he is more practical car guy. He can afford pretty much any car available today. 

I love them both and completely unbiased on the topic....


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> Have you stripped a Lexus and the comparative Toyota model? Do they have the same spec interior? Do they have the same spec insulation? Are the list of standard specs between the 2 exactly the same?
> 
> Does the corrolla come with sat Nav? It doesn't here...
> 
> ...


heres a comparison you might be able to wrap your head around. first of, toyotas and lexus's are the same platform. same frame, same engines, etc etc, but a different look and various features are different

think of a toyota as a basic amp. has gain, and a high pass filter. does 100 watts per channel, average looking case. standard terminals and rca ends, etc etc. now a lexus would be the same exact amp with a nice finish, tymphany style rca's, maybe bandpass-able crossovers, high level inputs, and a nicer logo, but the price is multiplied by 3.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> I`m not saying there is no difference between the two, you desperately looking for a way out..... I`m saying that there is not enough differences to sub brand it. it`s still a toyota. Not for Image seeking people....
> 
> So would you buy rebadged BMW? don`t answer that I know you won`t.
> 
> You`ll consider resale value and ****.... Now drop the price to hyunday level and now deal looks much more appealing...




Would I buy a Kia rebadged as a Bmw... no I won't - because I like the design and shape of the BMW 

On the other hand if KIA brought out a sedan that had the F10 M5 motor and transmission at a quarter of the price - I may consider it based on price alone 

But if it looks like a Japanese design I would rather pay the Bmw premium 

I am an Architect - design mean a whole lot to me - would you buy a house based on built area or on design 

I haven't paid enough attention to Toyota or Lexus to know what the exact differences are 

But I do know they have models in there range that compete with the E90 M3 which Toyota does not have...

Which Toyota competes with the E90 M3? 

The answer is none... so are the two companies exactly the same? 

No they are not... 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

No that is not what I asked. BMW sold to Kia and kia stripped BMW badges and placed kia badges on that vehicles, it`s still BMW designed and build cars....


----------



## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Off topic crew hard at work. There's something wrong with you people. :laugh:


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

schmiddr2 said:


> There's something wrong with you people. 8)


 You just now realised that? :laugh:


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

schmiddr2 said:


> Off topic crew hard at work.


Party poopers


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> No that is not what I asked. BMW sold to Kia and kia stripped BMW badges and placed kia badges on that vehicles, it`s still BMW designed and build cars....




If it's the same car has the same build quality same level of engineering and has the same spec level - sure why not 

And if I open the bonnet and I see a Bmw engine in it....

Actually Kia and Hyundai are regarded as good brands here....




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> If it's the same car has the same build quality same level of engineering and has the same spec level - sure why not
> 
> And if I open the bonnet and I see a Bmw engine in it....
> 
> ...


You rely on your eyes in both cases. 

So you say, on practice people will not buy brand others will see as cheap.

Then why you dismiss the idea of gut out MX4 and still be able to pick original?


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> No that is not what I asked. BMW sold to Kia and kia stripped BMW badges and placed kia badges on that vehicles, it`s still BMW designed and build cars....




Here we have a Toyota... 1.6 engine (top model offered here)









Here we have the Lexus - 200TE (base model)










Exactly how are these 2 cars the same? Different engines different looks very likely different interior and specs?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Here we have a Toyota... 1.6 engine (top model offered here)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Peter Schreyer works for hyundai now, look him up.
Are you playing dumb now? 
this discussion begets increasingly boring...


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> You rely on your eyes in both cases.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Victor - you wasting my data here...

Someone in Japan is scratching his head here... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Victor - you wasting my data here...
> 
> Someone in Japan is scratching his head here...
> 
> ...




I do? Sorry about that, good bye.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Peter Schreyer works for hyundai now, look him up.
> 
> Are you playing dumb now?
> 
> this discussion begets increasingly boring...




I agree... let's just leave it - your argument is completely flawed in respect to cars 

You would rather buy something that is rebadged and built by the lowest bidder than pay the correct price for something that is built with precision and care...

Makes no sense...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> I agree... let's just leave it - your argument is completely flawed in respect to cars
> 
> You would rather buy something that is rebadged and built by the lowest bidder than pay the correct price for something that is built with precision and care...
> 
> ...


 You are not playing you are who you are. 
I buy **** based on completely different set of parameters... 
You sure your logic is more advanced than mine, let`s leave it at that. 

My 8 years old said about cars- "who cares if it works as it should .....

It`s a damn car!"

And to set a record straight my 645 BMW was leaking like menstruating teen but at the age of 4.... tranny died at 35K miles miles.... Ny 1993 M 3 was awesome though....


and what makes no sense is that you reading what I posted wrong.....


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I take it you didn't click on my link. The Camry isn't a IS. 
The IS is called a Toyota Altezza. At least it was when I was stationed there.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> You are not playing you are who you are.
> 
> I buy **** based on completely different set of parameters...
> 
> ...




Well my Bmw which I had many have done a combined million miles on them - never replaced anything or repaired anything over normal service 

I have had diesels and M cars - NONE have given me a days trouble - touch wood...

All my cars did over 150k miles on them before I let them go 

One was on 200k miles E39 530d was perfect before I wrote it off..

Currently I have a 320d with 120k on it use it 5 hours a day sits in 3 hours in traffic does 150miles a day on the worst roads you guys in the US don't know about - not so much as a rattle in it

My other car is a F10 535d also 120k miles on it it's so quite you don't even know the engine is on - I swear if it you didn't know it was diesel you would be forgiven to think it was a petrol engine - None of my cars have used a drop of oil - the 535d drives like a Bentley does 9lts per 100 and is pretty quick when you drop the hammer 

It sounds like you were a little unlucky 

My E36 M3 had nearly 300k on it drove like a dream... never gave me any **** got a good deal on it when I sold it for a E46 M3... 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

Marky said:


> There is a difference and you get what you pay for....usually. Then again I was running 35 year old gear but it was extreme SQ stuff even to todays standard.
> HELL YES Theres a difference !!


Wait...35 years ago you were running gear that would be considered "extreme SQ stuff even to today's standard."? I gotta know more.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Well my Bmw which I had many have done a combined million miles on them - never replaced anything or repaired anything over normal service
> 
> I have had diesels and M cars - NONE have given me a days trouble - touch wood...
> 
> ...


 I sold my E36 in 2001 with 242K miles on it, not a single trouble other fuel pump died at 180 or so. I sold it and 5 years later it was still drivable, then I lost truck.. then 2005 645 leaked oil bad.. dead tranny at 35K.... replaced under warranty after I threatened to sue. **** them bimmers after that!

Maybe I was unlucky but BMW lost repeated business. 
One screw up and people move on... I did. Honda and Toyota after that not a single trouble... thank you I`ll take that...


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> I sold my E36 in 2001 with 242K miles on it, not a single trouble other fuel pump died at 180 or so. I sold it and 5 years later it was still drivable, then I lost truck.. then 2005 645 leaked oil bad.. dead tranny at 35K.... replaced under warranty after I threatened to sue. **** them bimmers after that!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




When I look to buy a new car - I do my checks and I send them away for a proper check - if they check out I buy them - I won't buy a car that has too much mileage to start off with as I do too much myself..

I also stay away from certain models that are known for either bad resale or bad reliability history...

So far so good... but I also had to have a few fights at dealerships trying to pull the wool over my eyes 

I don't support agents anymore I use a good independent that has good rates and knows his stuff 

So far so good.... I like bmws because spares are easy to find... 

I also know my way around the brand... I would be lost with other brands 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LostnEye (Feb 18, 2016)

Elektra said:


> What exactly are you talking about? I said I don't know - but I can assure you I know quite a lot about cars..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Obviously


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I keep cars for a long time- credit companies hate me. I buy new cars only for fear of unknown history. when I do I do research on reliability, resale,etc...


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

LostnEye said:


> Obviously


 He also knows a lot about amplifiers design.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > Im trying to hard? Ok. Check it out if i give you the actual test results you give me 500 dollars? All ******** aside. Not once but twice. All i have to do is get the results from my school. I scored to 2%. Why do in need to take a iq test when standarized testing proved im closer to 160?
> ...


ill call monday get the test results. 
I dont have to lie. 
Boy i have fun with dixkhead last night.
Oh fyi. You better not back out..


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

wtf is going on. i get drunk sleep a few hours and this is whats going on?
still no technical discussion?
we have an amp builder
i'm sure we have a few EEs or at-least some guys who know a thing or two.
yes my spelling is bad furthermore its worse when i'm drunk on a phone.
no you don't have to past a spelling test to get a IQ of 140+


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

bassfreak85 said:


> wtf is going on. i get drunk sleep a few hours and this is whats going on?
> 
> still no technical discussion?
> 
> ...




Your wasting your time...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Elektra said:


> Your wasting your time...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


i know. i just figured it would be fun.
i figured victor might have one of those excellent amps for dirt cheap.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

bassfreak85 said:


> i know. i just figured it would be fun.
> 
> i figured victor might have one of those excellent amps for dirt cheap.




Yeah walmart sells them - real cheap...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> He also knows a lot about amplifiers design.


mr amp designer. what do you think about the budget amps? im gonna just run the cheapest **** i can that sounds awesome


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> ill call monday get the test results.
> I dont have to lie.
> Boy i have fun with dixkhead last night.
> Oh fyi. You better not back out..


I back out of nothing, so far you did exactly that, you telling me that you don't have mensa certificate and that one day in future you`ll provide me your test results? how about you show me that you paid your yearly fees? yes there is yearly fee for Mensa members. Jut in case you forgot...


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Elektra said:


> Yeah walmart sells them - real cheap...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


that how this ****er can afford to spend 10k..


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> - touch wood...


great, here we go with the penis jokes again


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

bassfreak85 said:


> mr amp designer. what do you think about the budget amps? im gonna just run the cheapest **** i can that sounds awesome




Go buy some $50 amps and build a world champ car... sounds like that's the tone of this thread...

I mean an amp is an amp... they all sound the same...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

bassfreak85 said:


> that how this ****er can afford to spend 10k..




Now you get the picture...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> Go buy some $50 amps and build a world champ car... sounds like that's the tone of this thread...
> 
> I mean an amp is an amp... they all sound the same...
> 
> ...


kyle ragsdale did it a few years ago...


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> that how this ****er can afford to spend 10k..



I can afford what I claim and showed proof of that, you on other hand showed nothing but ignorance and unwillingness to change that.
Or maybe because thousand bucks you don`t have professor?

borrow, win the challenge- payback and walk away with 9? Still NO?


----------



## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

Elektra said:


> Go buy some $50 amps and build a world champ car... sounds like that's the tone of this thread...
> 
> I mean an amp is an amp... they all sound the same...
> 
> ...




A couple years back Kyle Ragsdale placed 3rd in MECA nationals using PPI Phantoms. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

brumledb said:


> A couple years back Kyle Ragsdale placed 3rd in MECA nationals using PPI Phantoms.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


pretty sure he got first

edit: just checked. yup, first place. as a matter of fact he scored better than most cars in the next few classes up


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > ill call monday get the test results.
> ...


we discussed this last night.
Instead of you actually doing some ground work you bullshitting around the real subject.
I dont need it to prove ive scored top tier. I did that as a young kid.. what i do need to these police to leave me alone.. lol
If you want to bet ill get the scores and ill send tgem to see if infact they will. 
Its just pointless because i proved already in my line of work i am capible. If i cant fix it i dont keep my job. I had to svore to even get hired.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

We crashing those poor bastards belief system, should we stop?


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

brumledb said:


> A couple years back Kyle Ragsdale placed 3rd in MECA nationals using PPI Phantoms.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




There you have it... Walmart gets you 3rd place at least... 

I think I have been looking at this all wrong - **** Brax I am going to get me Blaster amps - I can get like 20 for the price of one Brax amp so if some don't work the odds are I'll have enough to do an install and have enough left over cash to buy a mansion 

Why the hell didn't I see that before....

This is a total eureka moment... 

I would like to that every one of you guys for showing me the light... 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> There you have it... Walmart gets you 3rd place at least...
> 
> I think I have been looking at this all wrong - **** Brax I am going to get me Blaster amps - I can get like 20 for the price of one Brax amp so if some don't work the odds are I'll have enough to do an install and have enough left over cash to buy a mansion
> 
> ...




first.. using the go-to cheapest amp that makes rated power.. ppi phantoms


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> first.. using the go-to cheapest amp that makes rated power.. ppi phantoms




Gotcha... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> Gotcha...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


sounds like your not sure what to say to that lol


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> we discussed this last night.
> Instead of you actually doing some ground work you bullshitting around the real subject.
> I dont need it to prove ive scored top tier. I did that as a young kid.. what i do need to these police to leave me alone.. lol
> If you want to bet ill get the scores and ill send tgem to see if infact they will.
> Its just pointless because i proved already in my line of work i am capible. If i cant fix it i dont keep my job. I had to svore to even get hired.




use spell checker Einstein! he has IQ of 160- you obviously has same level of intellect. :laugh:


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> sounds like your not sure what to say to that lol


I`ll help him.... do you mind?

How do you know he didn`t gutted out matrix and put in in PPI case?

He obviously did something similar or meca judges ****ing deaf.:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

brumledb said:


> A couple years back Kyle Ragsdale placed 3rd in MECA nationals using PPI Phantoms.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is he not the same guy who won iasca finals, including the triple crown? And didn't his old lady take first in her class as well?


----------



## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> pretty sure he got first
> 
> 
> 
> edit: just checked. yup, first place. as a matter of fact he scored better than most cars in the next few classes up




Just looked it up, he did get first.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> I`ll help him.... do you mind?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nah I used one of your amps - came nowhere so going back to Brax 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

truckerfte said:


> Is he not the same guy who won iasca finals, including the triple crown? And didn't his old lady take first in her class as well?


not that i know of


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Nah I used one of your amps - came nowhere so going back to Brax
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nah, you haven`t.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Elektra said:


> Go buy some $50 amps and build a world champ car... sounds like that's the tone of this thread...
> 
> I mean an amp is an amp... they all sound the same...
> 
> ...


granted ill need a bad ass processor i'm going to get the new zapco unit..
https://www.zapco.com/dsp-5-series


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Nah, you haven`t.




Lol... 

Blaster FTW.... hooray! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

bassfreak85 said:


> granted ill need a bad ass processor i'm going to get the new zapco unit..
> 
> https://www.zapco.com/dsp-5-series




Why not...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Lol...
> 
> Blaster FTW.... hooray!
> 
> ...


 And you don`t want 10 grand to put me to shame? 


You are lying schmuck and this time I`ll not delete that statement.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Why not...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Because it`s cheap ass China made amp?:laugh:


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> And you don`t want 10 grand to put me to shame?
> 
> 
> You are lying schmuck and this time I`ll not delete that statement.


pot meet kettle:laugh:


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> use spell checker Einstein! he has IQ of 160- you obviously has same level of intellect. :laugh:


the app on my phone sucks. i don't like the keyboard but its no big deal to me.
i'm about to go get some fresh shrimp to cook Cajun style. 
FYI i can't edit anything on my phone.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> FYI i can't edit anything on my phone.


yes you can... just gotta be a halfway decent problem solver to figure it out


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> And you don`t want 10 grand to put me to shame?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For what purpose? 

You self absorbed schmuck... Get over yourself you have a different statement every forum thread - last time you agreed that High End amps are worth it now you singing a different tune...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> the app on my phone sucks. i don't like the keyboard but its no big deal to me.
> i'm about to go get some fresh shrimp to cook Cajun style.
> FYI i can't edit anything on my phone.


Excuses- excuses is all I hear from you people... 

OK, . enjoy your food.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> not that i know of


Then who is Mr T here? That is the guys handle here...Won those titles in 14 using phantoms as well. 

Then that would mean more than one guy took home some tall finals hardware using "cheap" Amps


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

truckerfte said:


> Then who is Mr T here? That is the guys handle here...Won those titles in 14 using phantoms as well.
> 
> Then that would mean more than one guy took home some tall finals hardware using "cheap" Amps


not sure but kyles name here is spyders03. And well ****, would you look at that. more winners with dog **** amps


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> For what purpose?
> 
> You self absorbed schmuck... Get over yourself you have a different statement every forum thread - last time you agreed that High End amps are worth it now you singing a different tune...
> 
> ...




High end amps worth it but for different reasons, Sound quality is not one of the reasons. Hard to comprehend?


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

He got the triple crown at SBN. If you google PPI triple crown you will see it


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DC/Hertz said:


> He got the triple crown at SBN. If you google PPI triple crown you will see it


He must be cheated, not sure how but he just must be.:laugh:

It`s conspiracy to drive high end manufacturers out of the market.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Hey if someone wants to front me a Brax MX4 and MX2 I'll get judged before and after to see what happens. 
It might take me a while to mail them back. I might magically lose both of my legs.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DC/Hertz said:


> Hey if someone wants to front me a Brax MX4 and MX2 I'll get judged before and after to see what happens.
> It might take me a while to mail them back. I might magically lose both of my legs.


 It`s glorious amplifiers. Nothing wrong with them but value in regards to exceptional sound quality.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> And you don`t want 10 grand to put me to shame?
> 
> 
> You are lying schmuck and this time I`ll not delete that statement.


your "test" is about as logical as buying a cheap amp and saying its the best sounding amp in the world..

you know my terms. not to mention i want to listen and adjust. like a REAL setup.. if we gonna do that..


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> your "test" is about as logical as buying a cheap amp and saying its the best sounding amp in the world..
> 
> you know my terms. not to mention i want to listen and adjust. like a REAL setup.. if we gonna do that..


My test switching between amplifier in 20 milliseconds, what is your problem with that? So far you failed to explain your "REAL "setup. You want to compare components of the test adjusting them in the process? 

You`ll have as much time with amps as you want before test starts. after you done no touching but buttons to confirm your choice. 

If you see what is playing I proposed different scenario degutting Brax matrix or amp of your choice, say zapco...


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> He must be cheated, not sure how but he just must be.:laugh:
> 
> It`s conspiracy to drive high end manufacturers out of the market.


the amps measures ****. has ****ty filters on the output and a weak ass power supply.


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

truckerfte said:


> Then who is Mr T here? That is the guys handle here...Won those titles in 14 using phantoms as well.
> 
> Then that would mean more than one guy took home some tall finals hardware using "cheap" Amps


so what, someone won using really cheap amps. how often does that happen, maybe 1% of the time, means nothing


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

ive also seen kicker solo X 18s win at finals.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> your "test" is about as logical as buying a cheap amp and saying its the best sounding amp in the world..
> 
> you know my terms. not to mention i want to listen and adjust. like a REAL setup.. if we gonna do that..


It eats a small signal and ****s a big one. Simple as that. Either it sounds differently or it doesn't. And I haven't seen any evidence someone can tell the difference repeatedly and accurately. I've seen a lot saying that they can't.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Porsche said:


> so what, someone won using really cheap amps. how often does that happen, maybe 1% of the time, means nothing


So that shows that class of an amp means nothing.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Porsche said:


> so what, someone won using really cheap amps. how often does that happen, maybe 1% of the time, means nothing


A definitive statement was made, and then disproven.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Lets discuss power supplies in amplifiers, means much more than other parts of an amp.


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> ..... dog **** amps


Is that what you really think of my gear?:sad:


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> the amps measures ****. has ****ty filters on the output and a weak ass power supply.


Yet, he won....Wasn't it you said that titles weren't won with cheap Amps? Not that you had much to begin with in the first place, you are losing credibility. You keep posting **** that can be almost instantly disproven in the first page of a Google search. 

You keep wanting to have a technical discussion, but do **** last night posting that you could talk my old lady into a 3 way with you and another chick?


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Here is my take on it (and I don't really want to get into this **** storm), but.....

All amps that measure the same sound the same.....TRUE

So, if I take a Walmart Special Amp and it measures as putting out 20 watts with 1% distortion and I take a Brax Matrix and set the gain so that it also has a max of 20 watts, both will sound the same as the distortion would be below human hearing.

However in the real world, that Walmart Special might sound okay at 20 watts, but turn into a big fat turd at 25 watts with 20% distortion.....so in that regard the Brax will blow it out of the water at 25 watts in this said scenario as they aren't measuring the same.

Does this satisfy both sides of the basic argument here?

*If they measure the same (or set up to for a specific test)....you WILL lose any bet of them sounding different as they will sound identical. * 

*All amps WILL measure different, unless specifically set up to measure the same, and therefore all amps WILL sound different!*

Some are prettier to look at than others, have greater reliability and lower noise floor.....all completely good reasons to spend more money!


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

A clean watt is a clean watt. Most cheap amps that say 50x4 are more like 20x4


----------



## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

Niebur3 said:


> Here is my take on it (and I don't really want to get into this **** storm), but.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Exactly. Kyle didn't win with the PPI Phantoms because they are some great SQ amp. He was able to win with them because he had a ****ton of power (lots of headroom) for each speaker and because of that the amps never even approached clipping. IIRC, he had a 600.2 bridged to each of his 3-way front speakers. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I tried to bring that over for 13 pages. thank you!


----------



## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

Everyone wants to be black and white with it. They either sound the same or they don't. 

They do sound the same, as long as the amp isn't being stressed (i.e. Clipping). 

Does that mean tomorrow I am going to trade in my 5.1k for some PPI's? Nope.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I thought Kyle won due to his tune.


----------



## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

Bayboy said:


> I thought Kyle won due to his tune.




He won for a lot of reasons. Power effects the ability to accurately reproduce dynamics and transients though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

Double post


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

brumledb said:


> Everyone wants to be black and white with it. They either sound the same or they don't.
> 
> They do sound the same, as long as the amp isn't being stressed (i.e. Clipping).
> 
> ...


Funny, I am. Well for one of those DD five channels, anyway. I won't notice the difference in sound. What I will notice is getting room back in the cargo area. 

Lots of reasons to buy amps...Sound isn't one.


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

brumledb said:


> He won for a lot of reasons. Power effects the ability to accurately reproduce dynamics and transients though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sure..... the only issues with those amps though still good enough to use was their dynamic power was no higher than continuous. IE... they had no headroom once they reached their limits. Small price to pay for what they were, but that matters not for most. That's what you pay for with higher quality amps.... power supplies is what I was told. That a few more things of course.


----------



## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

truckerfte said:


> Funny, I am. Well for one of those DD five channels, anyway. I won't notice the difference in sound. What I will notice is getting room back in the cargo area.
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of reasons to buy amps...Sound isn't one.




I wouldn't have a problem running DD. I have looked at their amps quite a few times but I buy pretty much all my stuff used from the classifieds here and don't see many of those popping up. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

brumledb said:


> I wouldn't have a problem running DD. I have looked at their amps quite a few times but I buy pretty much all my stuff used from the classifieds here and don't see many of those popping up.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hadn't really paid much attention to them at all. Someone brought them up somewhere, so I found a local dealer and went to check it out. Talked to the owner a while, and he seemed happy to find someone who uses an MS8, knows what audio frog and apl is, and mentioned norah Jones instead of the rapper of the week. 

He ended up giving me a quote on the big one that was well below msrp, and if I decide to sell the lrx, would actually put cash in my pocket.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

It was probably me. That's all I ever talk about. 
I don't have a DD sub anymore but I don't see a valid replacement for my amps.


----------



## truckguy (Sep 2, 2013)

DC/Hertz said:


> It was probably me. That's all I ever talk about.
> I don't have a DD sub anymore but I don't see a valid replacement for my amps.


What's your opinion on the DD SS4b and SS6? Pretty stout little amps.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I use the SS4A for the last few years. I'm happy with it. The B is on the list but I don't even use the 160x4 I have now.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

How many more pages is this Chinese fire drill gonna go on?


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> How many more pages is this Chinese fire drill gonna go on?


Until someone starts a class ab vs d thread. Or a wire thread, or a political issue thr


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-help-find-good-speaker-wire.html#post4638857


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

DC/Hertz said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-help-find-good-speaker-wire.html#post4638857


I gave an answer. That should take some heat off of this thread, lol.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

truckerfte said:


> Until someone starts a class ab vs d thread. Or a wire thread, or a political issue thr


Class D is to the point where a/b is starting to make less and less sense in a vehicle for MOST applications. Speaker wire isn't created equal but how it sounds has nothing to do with it. It's how it holds up in humidity that sets the good stuff apart from the crap. And I swing to the right most of the time but still have views that swing left. Took a test one time and it said I swung the way of "authoritive communist".

There!:laugh:


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

That right there made more sense than most things from some of the people in here


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

brumledb said:


> Everyone wants to be black and white with it. They either sound the same or they don't.
> 
> They do sound the same, as long as the amp isn't being stressed (i.e. Clipping).
> 
> ...


so why waste your money? Its retarded.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > the amps measures ****. has ****ty filters on the output and a weak ass power supply.
> ...


When you realize how flawed sq competitions are then we can discuss how to make it more accurate.
Ill find the bench of the ppi.

We are having a discussio. If people cant heard tge difference in amps but peoe run the same gear and have tge same processing and yet yall are naive enough to believe other wise.

When i see amps that measure terrie on the board and sleakers that have 10% thd at 8mm win sq comps they hold no weight.
It goes aginst what the real brilliant people spent thier lives improving and advancing the field and you tell them they are wrong and you heaeing is more accurate than a highly accurate machine thats says otherwise.


----------



## SHAGGS (Apr 24, 2011)

HOLY ****! I can't believe this train wreck is still skidding along.


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

bassfreak85 said:


> When you realize how flawed sq competitions are then we can discuss how to make it more accurate.
> Ill find the bench of the ppi.
> 
> We are having a discussio. If people cant heard tge difference in amps but peoe run the same gear and have tge same processing and yet yall are naive enough to believe other wise.
> ...


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

SHAGGS said:


> HOLY ****! I can't believe this train wreck is still skidding along.


Yeah, last night was my fault. I've got nothing better to do but sit around for the next few months 

You can't really blame him....Retards generally have no idea what the **** they are doing.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

bassfreak85 said:


> When i see amps that measure terrie on the board and sleakers that have 10% thd at 8mm win sq comps they hold no weight.
> It goes aginst what the real brilliant people spent thier lives improving and advancing the field and you tell them they are wrong and you heaeing is more accurate than a highly accurate machine thats says otherwise.


If you could take every sleaker made in the last 140 years and run all those sleakers through the Kippel test, you would find that the best sleakers all showed about 8-10% distortion when pushed close to linear Xmax while the really ****ty ones would show 20-40% distortion. That's how all sleakers have been, since the time they were invented.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> A definitive statement was made, and then disproven.


proven where?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

sqnut said:


> If you could take every sleaker made in the last 140 years and run all those sleakers through the Kippel test, you would find that the best sleakers all showed about 8-10% distortion when pushed close to linear Xmax while the really ****ty ones would show 20-40% distortion. That's how all sleakers have been, since the time they were invented.


when i said Xmax i meat excursion i should have said that. xmax is defined as the point of which the driver reaches 10% THD. b/l shifts etc..
in that respect the solo x was suposted to be like 18mm but it was around 8mm
dd 9500 back in the day had around 12mm and i really doubt its more than about 16mm today.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

truckerfte said:


> Yeah, last night was my fault. I've got nothing better to do but sit around for the next few months
> 
> 
> 
> You can't really blame him....Retards generally have no idea what the **** they are doing.




Really ....

I mentioned more than a few times across various threads about a blind ABX test done here...

I was witness to a guy who got 29/30 in that blind test - which he didn't know at the time there was a X component to the test..

How did he do that if all amps sound the same? 

Please explain because I am a "retard that has no idea what the **** I am doing"

Or maybe I am not the retard ....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> Why is it that systems with highend amps win yet no budget amps win?


Your statement....

And it's been done....

And **** that was like 12 hours ago.....Keep up princess....


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

ca90ss said:


>


no you thinking a person can hear better than a test bench or better than recording the output signal and comparing it to the original signal is the stupidest **** i've even heard. 

you are going to argue all amps sound the same yet clearly the high-end amps win 95% of the time. not only that but they bench better.

one time a ****ty amp wins and that PROOF. yet it was obviously biased..

http://www.pasmag.com/images/stories/test_report_graphs/1304/precision_power/image7.jpg
anyone who knows a bit amp amps can look at this graph and see they use pretty ****ty parts.

a simply test at 133 watts in the entire bandwidth would show some pretty muddy upper mid-range

the only advantage is has is dynamic headroom and any good amp should have no problem keeping up.

just like winning a SQ comp with a solo x when the proof is that its a pretty bad sounding driver.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Elektra said:


> Really ....
> 
> I mentioned more than a few times across various threads about a blind ABX test done here...
> 
> ...



You thought that was about you? Lol wow.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

truckerfte said:


> Your statement....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's been done... yes... guys get shot in the head and wake up with a headache

But why hasn't it been done at every comp? Surely if an amp is an amp - people can come with a total spend system of $3000k including install and consistently blow $50k systems out the water?

If that was true - NOBODY will compete with a high priced system - why?

Because firstly they don't like to be beaten by a cheap system and secondly they don't like the bragging rights after the event against them....

And no company will sell an amp over $500...

So whilst it has been done...like anything in this world - it hasn't happened enough times for it to become a fact rather than a anomaly or a glitch on the day...

I mean I have seen super high end systems do badly because the guy tried a different tune on the day... or maybe on the day half the competitors didn't pitch for the event...

Or maybe he was just good buddies with the judge (happens all the time here) 

If I can pick an amp out 20/20 would the world believe me or am I an anomaly that people will say well you are the only one?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

truckerfte said:


> You thought that was about you? Lol wow.




You never know here...lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> Your statement....
> 
> And it's been done....
> 
> And **** that was like 12 hours ago.....Keep up princess....


1 time in 40 years? lve i said that why i know SQ comps are flawed. ive seen terrible gear place high.

I've seen people ADMIT it is biased. test benches aren't biased. countless of installs direct switches aren't biased. 

the ONLY TIME you hear they do sound hte same is when a ton of processing is used. 

NOT TO MENTION IF THEY DO WHY ARE YOU IDIOTS STILL BUYING 500-800$ AMPS WHEN 150-200$ AMPS DO THE SAME THING?

YOU HAVE TO BE A RETARD TO SPEND 400 EXTRA DOLLARS FOR LOOKS OR A NAME.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> It was probably me. That's all I ever talk about.
> I don't have a DD sub anymore but I don't see a valid replacement for my amps.


why on earth would you replace your amps if they will sound the same?
because its biased and they don't that's why


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

all of this arguing and your sig tells me you use an off the shelf sundown amp... lol


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

bassfreak85 said:


> 1 time in 40 years? lve i said that why i know SQ comps are flawed. ive seen terrible gear place high.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Too many variable at shows - a lot of cliques and buddy systems - you speak your mind the day before and they don't like what you said and you already judged more harshly

If the judge on the day imports the products a competitor uses he is almost guaranteed a win 

Then there is interpretation - lots of guys argue about what is right and what is wrong and how good are the judges really I mean I had a friend argue about the center not being center according to the judge - yet it was perfect center for everyone else?

That's why I don't bother going to shows as I already know who won before the comp started...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> Too many variable at shows - a lot of cliques and buddy systems - you speak your mind the day before and they don't like what you said and you already judged more harshly
> 
> If the judge on the day imports the products a competitor uses he is almost guaranteed a win
> 
> ...


it might be like that where you live, but its not like anything like that here in the states


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> it might be like that where you live, but its not like anything like that here in the states




It's total joke here - the main judge imported a Chinese brand and installed it and then tuned the car and then judged it at the comp...

Who do you think won the show? 

I called him out after that - didn't make any friends that day! But who gives a **** - I mean I give up my Saturday and money for a judge that has his own agenda

I refuse to bring my car so that it can be beaten by a car with 1/20th of the cost so that he can sell more Chinese crap to people who don't know any better...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

http://www.pasmag.com/images/16.05/Test_Reports/Arc_Audio_XDi_600.4/Arc_Audio_XDi_600.4_PASMAG_3.jpg
break down and PROOF.
PASMAG | PERFORMANCE AUTO AND SOUND - Precision Power P900.4 Amplifier
2DB lower noise floor. AUDIBLE
power output identical
http://www.pasmag.com/images/16.05/...o_XDi_600.4/Arc_Audio_XDi_600.4_PASMAG_14.jpg
much better output filters and switching going on here at rated power NOTICEABLE


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> it might be like that where you live, but its not like anything like that here in the states


What kills me is that both of them will bag on "lesser" equipment winning calling it an anomaly. 

But when the couple of guys out of thousands can pick out the right amp in a test.....But not perfectly, it's absolute proof that they are right.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Elektra said:


> Too many variable at shows - a lot of cliques and buddy systems - you speak your mind the day before and they don't like what you said and you already judged more harshly
> 
> If the judge on the day imports the products a competitor uses he is almost guaranteed a win
> 
> ...


if your not running the "IN" gear you "out"


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> It's total joke here - the main judge imported a Chinese brand and installed it and then tuned the car and then judged it at the comp...
> 
> Who do you think won the show?
> 
> ...


yeah judges arent even allowed to tune their competitors cars in meca. dont generalize your statements. also, get that price **** out of your head. how ****ing hard headed are you? im seriously starting to think you have some sort of mental condition where your brain automatically correlates price to quality. or maybe its that your scared to admit to yourself thats not the case which is why you dont want to bring it. kinda like the whole john whitledge/magic bus thing.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> What kills me is that both of them will bag on "lesser" equipment winning calling it an anomaly.
> 
> But when the couple of guys out of thousands can pick out the right amp in a test.....But not perfectly, it's absolute proof that they are right.


you don't understand odds do you? 50/50 you woud be a god guesser. 60 id bet he can hear the difference. 70 to 80 id make him do it again. a couple years back a few people took the test and scored 7 or 8 more than once.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

when someone uses pasmag as "proof".... oh my. i cant tell if thats sad or funny


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

from hte man himself /end tread

Does this mean all amps sound the same in a normal install?

No. Richard Clark is very careful to say that amps usually do not sound the same in the real world. The gain setting of an amplifier can make huge differences in how an amplifier sounds, as can details like how crossovers or other filters are set. When played very loud (into clipping), the amplifier with more power will generally sound better than a lower powered amp.

Most people perceive slight differences in amplitude as quality differences rather than loudness. The louder component sounds “faster, more detailed, more full”, not just louder. This perceptual phenomenon is responsible for many people thinking they liked the sound of a component when really they just liked the way it was set up.

Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge FAQ


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> when someone uses pasmag as "proof".... oh my. i cant tell if thats sad or funny


its bench measurements same bench.. dumbass


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> all of this arguing and your sig tells me you use an off the shelf sundown amp... lol


the audio-frogs kickass?


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

truckerfte said:


> What kills me is that both of them will bag on "lesser" equipment winning calling it an anamoly.
> 
> 
> 
> But when the couple of guys out of thousands can pick out the right amp in a test.....But not perfectly, it's absolute proof that they are right.



Show me the last 5 years world champion winners and what they used in there cars - I doubt any other them used a $100 amp

It's amazing that so many high end systems win world championships and there are people that can pick out different amps in a double blind ABX test

Yet because you and so many others can't for various reasons then it's not a fact and that so many amp tests done all over the world mention characteristics that set them apart are all BS - because you say so...

Just because you can't understand Quantum Physics doesn't mean someone else can...

Would you agree that the ratio to wins using products that cost above $800 amps to the ratio of winners who used sub $300 amps is greatly in the favor of the plus $800 range 

Would you agree that the percentage is above 80%? And if you agree to that then you will also agree that 80% is the scientific average for a fact and that 20% of the wins is based on luck or an anomaly... 






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> yeah judges arent even allowed to tune their competitors cars in meca. dont generalize your statements. also, get that price **** out of your head. how ****ing hard headed are you? im seriously starting to think you have some sort of mental condition where your brain automatically correlates price to quality. or maybe its that your scared to admit to yourself thats not the case which is why you dont want to bring it. kinda like the whole john whitledge/magic bus thing.




Pretty hard... I guess

Dunno about the magic bus - haven't heard it.... 

If price equals quality I would have bought ZR Labs or Z Studios with Audiowave amps 

Was tempted on a HV Venti but the deal fell through... and what's the point of just one - you need at least 2 or 3....

I want to be done with buying **** now.... the only thing I'll consider buying next is a set of 3 ways and the maybe the new Brax DSP... 

I have a Helix PRO MKii and Director in the post which will work in one of the cars 

Once I have my kit - I won't be buying anything else - I'll move into home audio next...

Maybe convert some of my car stuff into a home setup... dunno thinking out loud right now...

If I do that I'll buy another MX2 and have 2 mono blocks for home setup... 2x1100 yeah baby 

Maybe do a Scanspeak Illuminator 3 way and get them into the home when I am done with the car

Then I'll just get a Helix P6 for the car with some scan speakers and call it a day for car audio... 

Who knows...

Or wait for our exchange rate to crash against the dollar and sell all my kit to the US and make all my money back... another option 

Just buy a mansion with the cash...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> Show me the last 5 years world champion winners and what they used in there cars - I doubt any other them used a $100 amp


we showed you two so far.. another great example would be mark eldridge. he uses a set of amps that most claim to sound not so great. the JL HD. i dont think i need to list his accomplishments. tony horton uses basic rockford amps. i forget what model but justin campbell uses some aura amps that are pretty low cost. ben zimmerman uses (used?) zapco dc amps which you can get brand new for super cheap. i think stock ran out on the first gen though. thats all i can think of just off the top of my head at this time of night, or morning. ****.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> When you realize how flawed sq competitions are then we can discuss how to make it more accurate.
> Ill find the bench of the ppi.
> 
> We are having a discussio. If people cant heard tge difference in amps but peoe run the same gear and have tge same processing and yet yall are naive enough to believe other wise.
> ...


WOW Dude turn on spell check, I honestly am not following what your laying down.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> we showed you two so far.. another great example would be mark eldridge. he uses a set of amps that most claim to sound not so great. the JL HD. i dont think i need to list his accomplishments. tony horton uses basic rockford amps. i forget what model but justin campbell uses some aura amps that are pretty low cost. ben zimmerman uses (used?) zapco dc amps which you can get brand new for super cheap. i think stock ran out on the first gen though. thats all i can think of just off the top of my head at this time of night, or morning. ****.


SkizeR I see you are running Very Nice amplifiers along with beautiful drivers and top shelf sound processor. Even your H/U in both of your builds are high dollar stuff...........so.........what gives.

Honestly you remind me of my younger days. Spending wild amounts of money on stereo equipment as soon as your old enough to buy that first car. Don't get me wrong I applaud you for it. But my point is you are running the gear you feel is going to do its best to suite your dreams. Or whatever you want to call it.

Sure there are amps and equipment that will last longer then others but also reproduce more accurately then others. Whether we are talking about lawn mowers cell phones or blow up dolls......... you almost always get what you pay for.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> Elektra said:
> 
> 
> > Show me the last 5 years world champion winners and what they used in there cars - I doubt any other them used a $100 amp
> ...


 superior tuning...


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> we showed you two so far.. another great example would be mark eldridge. he uses a set of amps that most claim to sound not so great. the JL HD. i dont think i need to list his accomplishments. tony horton uses basic rockford amps. i forget what model but justin campbell uses some aura amps that are pretty low cost. ben zimmerman uses (used?) zapco dc amps which you can get brand new for super cheap. i think stock ran out on the first gen though. thats all i can think of just off the top of my head at this time of night, or morning. ****.




Well the Zapco DC stuff and the JL HD stuff cost over $1000 MSRP... 

I can buy a MX4 for $1800 BNIB doesn't detract that it has a $4500 MSRP

For $1000 for the Zapco D.C. 650.6 id rather spend the extra $800 and get the MX4 based on the fact the DC was rated 4x50 2x100....

The DSP is great if you have a windows XP which nobody does these days 

Besides - there are better amps for much less - my EOS cost me about $350 each BNIB for $1000 I could buy 3 amps - 2 4 channel amps 4x110 and one 2 channel at 2x170 or 1 x 680 at 4 ohms 

Can easily have a system of 4x110 2x360 and 1 x 680 all at 4 ohms.... if I had a P99 I would not even need a DSP 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Marky said:


> SkizeR I see you are running Very Nice amplifiers along with beautiful drivers and top shelf sound processor. Even your H/U in both of your builds are high dollar stuff...........so.........what gives.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It seems what goes for goose doesn't really go for the gander... it seems 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I know my experience since 1993 I've noticed a difference. Power, heck yes. Sound, no.

But I still like nice things.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

DC/Hertz said:


> I know my experience since 1993 I've noticed a difference. Power, heck yes. Sound, no.
> 
> 
> 
> But I still like nice things.




Don't we all like shinny new things...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## el_bob-o (Nov 8, 2008)

Marky said:


> SkizeR I see you are running Very Nice amplifiers along with beautiful drivers and top shelf sound processor. Even your H/U in both of your builds are high dollar stuff...........so.........what gives.
> 
> Honestly you remind me of my younger days. Spending wild amounts of money on stereo equipment as soon as your old enough to buy that first car. Don't get me wrong I applaud you for it. But my point is you are running the gear you feel is going to do its best to suite your dreams. Or whatever you want to call it.
> 
> Sure there are amps and equipment that will last longer then others but also reproduce more accurately then others. Whether we are talking about lawn mowers cell phones or blow up dolls......... you almost always get what you pay for.



Just for the record those Zapco ST amplifiers are very affordable.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Yeah the STs are so cheap it makes you think they are junk. Considering zapcos normal price point


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Marky said:


> SkizeR I see you are running Very Nice amplifiers along with beautiful drivers and top shelf sound processor. Even your H/U in both of your builds are high dollar stuff...........so.........what gives.
> 
> Honestly you remind me of my younger days. Spending wild amounts of money on stereo equipment as soon as your old enough to buy that first car. Don't get me wrong I applaud you for it. But my point is you are running the gear you feel is going to do its best to suite your dreams. Or whatever you want to call it.
> 
> Sure there are amps and equipment that will last longer then others but also reproduce more accurately then others. Whether we are talking about lawn mowers cell phones or blow up dolls......... you almost always get what you pay for.





Elektra said:


> It seems what goes for goose doesn't really go for the gander... it seems
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



in my 300zx, its a long term project. sort of my car/setup that i dream of. the daily driver.. well if i told you how much (well, how little) i paid for that setup you'd be beating down my door and trying to get me for robbery. if i didnt get it for this cheap, id be using something like sb acoustics mids and scan tweeters. and just because i have some high dollar stuff, doesnt mean im a smug ******* about it and think everything below that isnt good enough. i still think its funny that elektra wont go to a comp because hes afraid a cheaper system will beat him. really puts perspective on your guys state of mind. 




bassfreak85 said:


> superior tuning...


nice cop out.




Elektra said:


> Well the Zapco DC stuff and the JL HD stuff cost over $1000 MSRP...
> 
> I can buy a MX4 for $1800 BNIB doesn't detract that it has a $4500 MSRP
> 
> ...


the new dc stuff "retails" for less than 1k. same with the jl hd. (the point of mentioning the hd was that most people who have compared them claims they sound like ****, but here they are still doing very well). but there were many sources selling new first version of the dc amps (the better of the two i might add) for 125-150 for a 500 watt mono and 100 watt 2 channel. and they do work on windows newer than xp. as a matter of fact im using one to run my computer setup and i have the program right here on my desktop..the amps in my sig now totaled less than 350 dollars


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

I'm sure you did some install work or some sort of comp to get at a good price. You have a lot of nice equipment, that's not a crime. 
I bought most of my amps off of eBay and a lot of it was cheap cheap. All of my gear is 20+ year old stuff that comes waay cheaper then the newer stuff today. Its no ******** my signature being: "Living In The Past"


That said there is Nothing Wrong with having nice stuff. That's one thing that gets me about this forum, you are automatically considered a primadonna or a smug bastard if you are running nice gear. Not supposed to let anyone think you enjoy putting together equipment that may cost a few bucks and cranks out some musical bliss. No...no supposed to use margarine containers for door enclosures along with Radio Shack drivers and by pure will and determination make them sound better then anything else on the market.
The poll here proves that.


I am still a firm believer that a system is going to sound as good as it's Weakest Link !!


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Marky said:


> I'm sure you did some install work or some sort of comp to get at a good price. You have a lot of nice equipment, that's not a crime.
> I bought most of my amps off of eBay and a lot of it was cheap cheap. All of my gear is 20+ year old stuff that comes waay cheaper then the newer stuff today. Its no ******** my signature being: "Living In The Past"
> 
> 
> ...


you dont automatically get labeled as a primadonna if you have nice gear. you do when your smug about it though. take elektra for example. 

weakest link.. 99.9% of the time the weakest link is the install/tune.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> Yeah the STs are so cheap it makes you think they are junk. Considering zapcos normal price point


He has the real Jiffy Zapco's in his 300ZX because I remember looking up the specs on them. He has a ton of time and effort into that install, I looked at the thread on it.

Its a serious setup......


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

No one is judging anyone just because they have higher tier gear. That's bull to even ride that point. It's the ones that actually believe that you can't have SQ unless you have that tier & constantly push that agenda who are full of themselves. The poll doesn't say anything other than a certain percentage of people believe there are diminishing returns at some point, yet to belittle their level down to margarine containers and Radio Shack drivers pretty much reinforces it my earlier point.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> you dont automatically get labeled as a primadonna if you have nice gear. you do when your smug about it though. take elektra for example.
> 
> weakest link.. 99.9% of the time the weakest link is the install/tune.


That I believe, I have seen some systems that boom like hell but the rest of it sounds like hell. There is a lot of gear that does the job just not very well.


----------



## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

bassfreak85 said:


> so why waste your money? Its retarded.




It's not a waste of money. I use the 5.1k for several reasons. The main reason is that it puts out 1,000 watts at 2 ohms on the sub channel. Please show me another 5 channel amp that puts out 1k into 2 ohms. The only other one I know of that even comes close is the PG Ti2 1600.5.

As others have stated, there are lots of reasons to buy a particular amp besides one sounds better than another. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Diminishing returns is a huge factor in this stuff. Same as computers, you pay insane money for that extra nitch of quality that the next computer down does not have.
There's a point where it's acceptable or it's not as far as how far a guy will go on price of something.

There's a outfit that sells amps for like $15,000.00 for the car. They show movie stars etc that use their stuff as marketing their stuff. I'm going to look that up to get the brand name.

That I am 100% with you and I mean that whole heartedly.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Marky said:


> Diminishing returns is a huge factor in this stuff. Same as computers, you pay insane money for that extra nitch of quality that the next computer down does not have.
> There's a point where it's acceptable or it's not as far as how far a guy will go on price of something.
> 
> There's a outfit that sells amps for like $15,000.00 for the car. They show movie stars etc that use their stuff as marketing their stuff. I'm going to look that up to get the brand name.
> ...


critical mass is the brand. funny thing is the internals of them are clones of some amps that are considered bottom of the barrel. theres comparison photos on this site somewhere


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> you dont automatically get labeled as a primadonna if you have nice gear. you do when your smug about it though. take elektra for example.
> 
> 
> 
> weakest link.. 99.9% of the time the weakest link is the install/tune.




Explain.. smug? 

Are you even sure what that means? 

I sense a wet blanket syndrome or SMD syndrome...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> you dont automatically get labeled as a primadonna if you have nice gear. you do when your smug about it though. take elektra for example.
> 
> 
> 
> weakest link.. 99.9% of the time the weakest link is the install/tune.




Why do you assume I know nothing about tuning or install? 

Assumptions is the mother of all ****ups have you not heard? 

Like that dick that assumed I lived in trailer park and spent every last cent on high priced gear....

Classic syndrome - who needs a Ferrari when a Toyota does the job... 

Sheesh so many wet blankets here... 

Why do you care what **** I have in any case? I never ever said sell everything and buy this... did I? 

You people are so fixated on what you believe in that you cannot accept that some people hear a difference , some people don't find amps like Brax expensive.... I know I don't...

Your probably one of those guys that sees a guy driving a nice car and because you can't afford it automatically say he must be a dick... 

Or he posted on 3 different forums how small must his dick be? Smacks of bad taste! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Your probably one of those guys that sees a guy driving a nice car and because you can't afford it automatically say he must be a dick...
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Most time he is a dick though. People posting their equipment multiple times in the same thread certainly are.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Most time he is a dick though. People posting their equipment multiple times in the same thread certainly are.




That's absolute bull crap... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Don't we all like shinny new things...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


THere you answered. You like shiny new things and your brain make you believe that there a difference.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> That's absolute bull crap...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hat fits,huh?


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Lol these analogies are poor in taste. People with money don't always believe in buying high dollar things. You don't keep money that way. It's actually the people that buy for status who have money issues because of such. Almost any high brand name brought up on here can be afforded by most. Whether they see the value in doing such is a different story and that doesn't make them less than in this equation. Smh

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> THere you answered. You like shiny new things and your brain make you believe that there a difference.




OMG... that's all I have to say about that...

Tell me what's your business model?

I mean you build amps for a living? How do you sell one amp over the other? 

"Oh this one sounds the same as the other one - it's double the price because it looks shinier and makes a few more watts" but I wouldn't bother it sounds the same...






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Hat fits,huh?




I don't wear hats... do you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I might do 4 of those 2 channel studio amps. One bridged per speaker.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

DC/Hertz said:


> I might do 4 of those 2 channel studio amps. One bridged per speaker.




How much are those studio amps MSRP not what you can get them for? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Elektra said:


> I don't wear hats... do you?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wear hats all the time. Camo is my favorite..........I can't even go without one in the summer anymore.

Why are we beating on hats now. lol


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Elektra said:


> How much are those studio amps MSRP not what you can get them for?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The 2 channels bridge to 160x1 at 4ohm for $99


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> THere you answered. You like shiny new things and your brain make you believe that there a difference.


So do you build amplifiers yourself ??

I saw that picture you posted up that looked like a Tru-Tech amp on Steroids. 
Very interested I will say. You will go up more than a rung or two in my book if you can pull that **** off..

Whats that saying: Salami Baloney in a good way 

That's a God Status in my book.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Marky said:


> I wear hats all the time. Camo is my favorite..........I can't even go without one in the summer anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> Why are we beating on hats now. lol




It's a baseless saying that's not only irrelevant but mis-used in context... 

Based totally on personal preference rather than any fact... I really hate it when people act clever when they really not... 

I mean "all people driving expensive cars are dicks" 

Coming from a guy who said "I had a 645i with 30k on clock" I mean that's a cheap ass car.. I am sure everyone drives 645i's - I know that's not the case here... 

He must have looked like such a dick in it... spent all his cash on the car and left nothing for maintenance which is why is broke down... blamed the brand 

He was right in this case - he is a dick... but it had nothing to do with the 645i.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> OMG... that's all I have to say about that...
> 
> Tell me what's your business model?
> 
> ...




I thought you`d never ask..

I let them listen to whatever else amps I have in my collection and pick for themselves. 
I support my **** indefinitely and you don`t have to wait a week to get an answer. I patent and sell **** overseas, they make it and sell whatever way they pleased, I can bet some of that **** used in most people equipment.
I don`t care if industry knows my name or my credentials. Yes I`m modest like that.
And I do custom job when you need something and you don`t know where to get it or whom to ask. 
On top of that everything I sell myself has lifetime warranty. it it breaks I fix it. 

I can further but remember I`m modest one. I don`t post stuff I buy in open forum to drool on..


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

DC/Hertz said:


> The 2 channels bridge to 160x1 at 4ohm for $99




Ok so $400 for 4 amps - so you would rather use 4 amps - have 4 sets of cabling - 4 places to find space to install them 

So with a sub amp it's 5 amps? Even if they are small amps you still filling up your trunk with amps - why not buy one 4 channel amp? 

I purchased a EOS AE-130 4x135 for the same price? Have one amp to install have one set of power cables have more space for other things that are important to have in the trunk? 

And this amp is rated along side the GZ Ref 4... 

So it's decent... sorry we can't say tested or sounded like as we have really beat that topic to death...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> I thought you`d never ask..
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So can you hear a difference between any of your amps...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Marky said:


> So do you build amplifiers yourself ??
> 
> I saw that picture you posted up that looked like a Tru-Tech amp on Steroids.
> Very interested I will say. You will go up more than a rung or two in my book if you can pull that **** off..
> ...


Right.... You`ve seen TO-3 packaged bipolars and assumed that tru has anything to do with it. Guess what genius, your beloved 35 years old equipment has just that if you bothered to open it up you'd discover it yourself.

At some point they became fashion statement and were used for that reason alone. there is no technical reason to use them anymore.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> So can you hear a difference between any of your amps...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes I can until set in double blind ABX comparison setting. 

But the truth is It`s irrelevant, My customers smarter than that. They buy equipment for other reasons.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> I thought you`d never ask..
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So if you die tomorrow your warranty is what 1 day? 

Brax offers the same warranty except when one person dies the next person continues

Besides what's a life time warranty? Statistically people change gear virtually every time the buy a new car - statistically people buy new cars every 3-5 years or whenever there lease expires 

Typically "life time warranties" are not transferable to the next owner - so all that needs to happen is a amp needs to last 3-5 years...

Even cheap off the shelf Chinese built by the lowest bidder using every knock off component in it will last that long...

When you paying $200-300 if it lasts 3 years and breaks it's no issue to chuck it.. most of the time repairs will cost the same as a new one...

All those nice things you mentioned means jack **** if you can't hear a difference in the product.. 

But I bet you don't tell them that... 

And what about that amp that will blow our minds? As you put it... 

I am confused are you the only one capable of building an amp that will blow our minds or will any amp blow our minds if set exactly like yours?

There seems to be a grey area in your combined statements.... how will a amp blow my mind if Walmart sells the same thing at 1/10th of your amp?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Yes I can until set in double blind ABX comparison setting.
> 
> 
> 
> But the truth is It`s irrelevant, My customers smarter than that. They buy equipment for other reasons.




What's that your award winning personality? 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> What's that your award winning personality?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Do I suppose to answer to that? Or it was a statement? I`m confused. 


People who refuse to question their predisposition on topic not worth talking to.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Elektra said:
> 
> 
> > So can you hear a difference between any of your amps...
> ...


reguardless of the topic id love to do business with you AND a real world test. You know damn well not all amps sound the same even level matched under clipping as they near there limits transistors heat up caps get over/under saturated etc..
.
Design me a good budget 150x4 with a regulated and optically isolated dual power supply with the channels on each an individual gain and on individual boards isolated.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> reguardless of the topic id love to do business with you AND a real would test. You know damn well not all amps sound the same even level matched under clipping as they near there limits transistors heat up caps get over/under saturated etc.
> Design me a good budget 150x4 with a regulated and optically isolated dual power with the channels on each an individual gain and on individual boards isolated.


I don`t do "budget" sorry wrong guy.

I do challenging orders- 10-50 channels. why would you need gain on amplifiers when you can adjust sensitivity in DSP software? 
Gain presume that you have front stage in an amp. car amps has up to 5 stages of amplification and each of it degrade sound trow away half of that crap and you`ll get what signal suppose to be but with more current capability.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Do I suppose to answer to that? Or it was a statement? I`m confused.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's rhetorical... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> I don`t do "budget" sorry wrong guy.


**** you mean you dont do budget? You cant do that for 225 a unit?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> **** you mean you dont do budget? You cant do that for 225 a unit?


**** you too. 225 a channel? what is your unit of measurement?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> It's rhetorical...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I see.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> I don`t do "budget" sorry wrong guy.




So your high end? What exactly does that mean? 

Your products are not "budget" yet we have gone through 30 pages of BS because high end is BS

So now I am confused... 

Cheap = same as High End - High end = show offs = small dicks - you can hear a difference (with a convenient disclaimer) nobody else can = you full of ****...

So which is it? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Do amps sound different? Sure.

With a DSP to work out the tonality differences to taste anyway...

...and with a vertically bi-amped configuration to negate any effects caused by stereo separation differences between amps...

Does it really matter?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> So your high end? What exactly does that mean?
> 
> Your products are not "budget" yet we have gone through 30 pages of BS because high end is BS
> 
> ...


 Ever heard of "custom" genius? 
did I ever said anything that Brax not worth it? 
Not convenient but real comparison same power to same power....

Are you too absorbed in self importance to understand it or it`s my ability to explain it?


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Ever heard of "custom" genius?
> 
> did I ever said anything that Brax not worth it?
> 
> ...




You did actually - "I would rather have competition amps than a MX4" 

I think you need to read the dribble you have been writing - if I was lawyer you would have been given the death sentence already... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Ok I`m gonna put in in terms you`ll understand.

You bring your Brax and I`ll build D class that will wipe a floor with your Brax sound quality wise? Then You can set it to any power level you want and still hear no difference if levels set by oscilloscope?

Better?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Fyi. Not all people use processors. Some or old fashoned and use only a analog passives biamped.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> You did actually - "I would rather have competition amps than a MX4"
> 
> I think you need to read the dribble you have been writing - if I was lawyer you would have been given the death sentence already...
> 
> ...


 I`d take 5 competition amps instead of one brax- true that. and I would build a system that will beat that brax in sound quality. Simply because it will have better dynamics and power.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> Fyi. Not all people use processors. Some or old fashoned and use only a analog passives biamped.


And that`s wonderful. as soon as you like what you hear why anyone else opinion matters?


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Ok I`m gonna put in in terms you`ll understand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




**** me - 620 posts and we are going absolutely nowhere....

"You bring your Brax and I'll build a D Class that will wipe the floor with your Brax sound quality wise" sounds like you saying amps sound different to me?

The other statement is totally irrelevant... refer to statement one...

Do want parole this century? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> **** you too. 225 a channel? what is your unit of measurement?


Not **** you. Lol
Its wjat the duck you mean you dont do.
Its not like its a standard run of the mill amp. It could be something custom for my company.
Im getti g my duck inline and one of tbe final things i need is a very decent 4 channel to drive active 2ways.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> **** me - 620 posts and we are going absolutely nowhere....
> 
> "You bring your Brax and I'll build a D Class that will wipe the floor with your Brax sound quality wise" sounds like you saying amps sound different to me?
> 
> ...


I simply try to speak on your level.... On top of that you can`t ****ing read.

Let me help you again...

they will sound different t because mine will be more powerful and has better dynamics, up until we limit my amp to mx4 level, then and only then you will not hear any difference. If you do you`ll be $10000 richer so you buy new wheels for your bimmer....


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> **** you too. 225 a channel? what is your unit of measurement?


Not **** you. Lol
Its what the **** you mean you dont do budget.
But yet you sell designs to the chinese? 

Its not like its a standard run of the mill amp. It would be something custom for my company.
Im gettig my duck inline and one of tbe final things i need is a very decent 4 channel to drive active 2ways.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> Not **** you. Lol
> Its wjat the duck you mean you dont do.
> Its not like its a standard run of the mill amp. It could be something custom for my company.
> Im getti g my duck inline and one of tbe final things i need is a very decent 4 channel to drive active 2ways.


 120V mains?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Elektra said:


> **** me - 620 posts and we are going absolutely nowhere....
> 
> "You bring your Brax and I'll build a D Class that will wipe the floor with your Brax sound quality wise" sounds like you saying amps sound different to me?
> 
> ...


But you can't hear the difference.. kmsl


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> I simply try to speak on your level.... On top of that you can`t ****ing read.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




But isn't that what we have been saying for at least 600 of the 625 posts? 

The level of contraction here is world class...

I read just fine thanks... you I am not sure of... 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Elektra said:


> But isn't that what we have been saying for at least 600 of the 625 posts?
> 
> The level of contraction here is world class...
> 
> ...


Thats excatly why he wouldnt lut 10k on a basic swap.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> 120V mains?


You are the damn designer. If i have to do that much work ill spend a year and design them myself. Lol
You know high voltage can be beneficial in terms of power/size. Im going to guess what ever voltage you choose is going to adhere to the components you feel are ideal.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> But isn't that what we have been saying for at least 600 of the 625 posts?
> 
> The level of contraction here is world class...
> 
> ...


 One more time for you, we set your brax at max it can make- 275 or whatever that particular example of great engineering capable of. 
and I`ll limit mine at the same exactly power- you will not hear difference and will be unable to pick yours reliably 10 out of 10 times.If you do I`ll pay up and you happily leave. you you don`t then I`ll set mine at full power and only then you`ll pick it as better sounding.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> You are the damn designer. If i have to do that much work ill spend a year and design them myself. Lol
> You know high voltage can be beneficial in terms of power/size. Im going to guess what ever voltage you choose is going to adhere to the components you feel are ideal.


 there is significant difference what you need amp for, mobile 12V environment or home audio 120V receptacle provide at the wall.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

question for you both. If you believe in God don`t you want to have a proof that he/she exist??


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Victor are you off your meds again?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

benny z said:


> Victor are you off your meds again?


 It seems I am, Trying to explain simple thing to people who refuse to listen.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

E don`t sell your braxs amps just yet , industry in desperate need of people like you.
You move industry forward providing funds for RND. and employ people at AF. 
I`m dead serious.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> question for you both. If you believe in God don`t you want to have a proof that he/she exist??




Not a good weekend for does God exists .... don't you think?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> One more time for you, we set your brax at max it can make- 275 or whatever that particular example of great engineering capable of.
> 
> and I`ll limit mine at the same exactly power- you will not hear difference and will be unable to pick yours reliably 10 out of 10 times.If you do I`ll pay up and you happily leave. you you don`t then I`ll set mine at full power and only then you`ll pick it as better sounding.




Yes because I'll be deaf...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Not a good weekend for does God exists .... don't you think?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think,therefore I am, do you?


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

bassfreak85 said:


> Thats excatly why he wouldnt lut 10k on a basic swap.




Dude - this thread is so comical it's ridiculous ... I am just here to amuse myself...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> E don`t sell your braxs amps just yet , industry in desperate need of people like you.
> 
> You move industry forward providing funds for RND. and employ people at AF.
> 
> I`m dead serious.




Well I keep the world turning don't I... 

I will sell my amps when I am done with them or when I get a deal on something else that I am interested in trying - maybe HV or HR100 along those lines...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> I think,therefore I am, do you?




Whatever meds your on - they not working...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Well I keep the world turning don't I...
> 
> I will sell my amps when I am done with them or when I get a deal on something else that I am interested in trying - maybe HV or HR100 along those lines...
> 
> ...


Thank you for driving progress forward.... even though progress changed direction once indistinguishable sound quality in amplification has been achieved.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Whatever meds your on - they not working...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


OBviously they don`t or I wouldn`t argue with idiots.


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

DC/Hertz said:


> The 2 channels bridge to 160x1 at 4ohm for $99


Why not 2 of the 4 channel versions instead? At $178 each you get 210x4 when bridged. Less money, more power, less gear to install. 

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Thank you for driving progress forward.... even though progress changed direction once indistinguishable sound quality in amplification has been achieved.




I am sure a new class will be discovered - that's what they thought about Betamax, VHS, Laser disc , DVD and 8 track, vinyl , tapes , CDs, super audio CDs, mini discs , HiRes etc... 

The list goes on... what makes you think they won't improve on amps in the future..? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> I am sure a new class will be discovered - that's what they thought about Betamax, VHS, Laser disc , DVD and 8 track, vinyl , tapes , CDs, super audio CDs, mini discs , HiRes etc...
> 
> The list goes on... what makes you think they won't improve on amps in the future..?
> 
> ...


You are unable to read.....

Efficiency is new goal not sound quality. D class reached 90-95% as of today.

Considering we all will be driving electric cars very soon progress will be going in that direction. 
THen of course they will find a new way to take your money.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> OBviously they don`t or I wouldn`t argue with idiots.




I feel the same way... except I don't take meds 

Maybe I should.... sometimes I need to high to understand what's going on here...

So to recap for those who don't want to sift through 640 posts...

1) high end amps means you have a small dick and something to prove - Nick...
2) all amps sound the same - you and a few others
3) you can hear a difference in your own amps - but unfortunately not in a blind ABX test - how convenient
4) you can build a Class D amp that will SOUND better than a MX4... confused but I doubt it - but refer to point 2 for more confusion 
5) a mountain of contradictions about BMWs - people driving high priced cars are all dicks - not withstanding you owned a fairly new BMW 645i 
6) we all need meds 
7) you don't build budget amps - so you build high end amps - refer to point 1

Have I missed anything? Or have I covered everything? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> You are unable to read.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Probably - but for now I drive a diesel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> I feel the same way... except I don't take meds
> 
> Maybe I should.... sometimes I need to high to understand what's going on here...
> 
> ...


 You are simpleton, everything in life so obvious to you...

I`m done with you.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> You are simpleton, everything in life so obvious to you...
> 
> 
> 
> I`m done with you.




Thank God! Getting a proper headache right now...

Well I just analyze the information presented to me.... so far I have read nothing but unsubstantiated posts riddled with contradictory statements 

The jury is still out... 

"Can 2 amps sound different" more like does God exist and which God is more powerful? 

I think in 20 years time we will still be debating this topic...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Once you understand that double blind ABX test is THE ONLY WAY TO TEST amplification your headache will be gone. Its like meeting GOD in person, until you can`t grasp that You will have that curse of constantly switching between amplifiers.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Once you understand that double blind ABX test is THE ONLY WAY TO TEST amplification your headache will be gone. Its like meeting GOD in person, until you can`t grasp that You will have that curse of constantly switching between amplifiers.




I'll bet you your $10k that if I blind fold you and asked you to open your mouth and put a food item in your mouth - you would not be able to identify it until I show you what you just ate...

Would you like to eat food blind folded in a restaurant? I don't think so...

So why would I do a double blind test to listen to music?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

As of debating this topic, you right people will come into hobby with preconceived ideas and it will be all over again.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> As of debating this topic, you right people will come into hobby with preconceived ideas and it will be all over again.




Of course how else are we to have an educated discussion? Life would just be so boring


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> I'll bet you your $10k that if I blind fold you and asked you to open your mouth and put a food item in your mouth - you would not be able to identify it until I show you what you just ate...
> 
> Would you like to eat food blind folded in a restaurant? I don't think so...
> 
> ...


You comparison is flawed, You compare amplifiers blindfolded, as of scientific experiment, then you can open your eyes and be amused that you CAN NOT HEAR A ****ING DIFFERENCE when You swear you could before.
You not lying you truly believe you could. Just mistaken. 

As of food, such tests has been done as well, you taste what you see if you try chocolate shaped as pickle you`ll feel pickle, not chocolate, google it, it`s there. We are visual creatures, our brain playing nasty tricks all the time. 

Men more so than women...... women are different creatures.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Of course how else are we to have an educated discussion? Life would just be so boring
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 How is that possible to have educated discussion with intentionally ignorant people?


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> How is that possible to have educated discussion with intentionally ignorant people?




I dunno ... I do! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> Explain.. smug?
> 
> Are you even sure what that means?
> 
> ...





Elektra said:


> Why do you assume I know nothing about tuning or install?
> 
> Assumptions is the mother of all ****ups have you not heard?
> 
> ...


problem is you dont even realize how you look when you post.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> How much are those studio amps MSRP not what you can get them for?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


LMGTFY


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> problem is you dont even realize how stupid you look when you post.


Here, fixed it for you.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> I dunno ... I do!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 You are indeed intentionally ignorant person. :laugh:


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> So if you die tomorrow your warranty is what 1 day?
> 
> Brax offers the same warranty except when one person dies the next person continues


you have got to be one of the strangest people ive come across on here. :laugh:


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Here, fixed it for you.


i wanted to be at least somewhat nice about it lol


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > You are the damn designer. If i have to do that much work ill spend a year and design them myself. Lol
> ...


Alittle background. Im a nationally certified electrician and i speclize in automation and automated controls.
We never once mentioned home audio between us. So i figured you meant rail volrage. I was pretty sure you just made a mistake but i guess you didn't apparantly..


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> i wanted to be at least somewhat nice about it lol


 I`m here for you buddy, I know what you think....


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> Elektra said:
> 
> 
> > So if you die tomorrow your warranty is what 1 day?
> ...


legit question..
Branding world be a good idea.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> legit question..
> Branding world be a good idea.


dude, you seriously need to proof read


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I don't get this thread.

These posts are all arguing that one shouldn't care what another thinks (or that person X indeed does not care) yet it seems the posts are all made in an effort to persuade another they're either right or wrong about what they're doing.

This whole thing reeks of intense irony. 

No one really takes advice from anyone here anymore. Certainly not in this thread where minds are made up before the page is even opened. People are hard headed; on both sides of the fence. Arguing on the internet for literally days on end is an incredible waste of time. At some point you have to realize you're not making a dent and move on. Not that I expect my post to do much good... but I also won't be coming back in to argue it's point countless additional times. *shrugs*

/out


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

you guys crack me up


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Elektra said:


> I feel the same way... except I don't take meds
> 
> Maybe I should.... sometimes I need to high to understand what's going on here...
> 
> ...


I think it's fairly simple unless you choose to be hard headed and spiteful...

Out of the box every amplifier is different. It's different because each piece maintains a different tolerance. However, simply adjusting it to operate within tolerance and comparing against another that operates similarly you didn't hear a difference.

If it does, then it has an added variable or out of spec part in most instances.

Do amps sound different?... Yes. Can you make changes so it sounds like another amp? Absolutely. Does high end gear automatically denote some super special characteristic that will differentiate it against another amp with same power and distortion?... It hasn't happened in a double blind test yet.

Nobody cares what you own. However, believing that price alone guarantees you have a better application is ridiculous. Attempting to argue through arrogance instead of empirical data will make anybody sound like a jerk.



Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> question for you both. If you believe in God don`t you want to have a proof that he/she exist??


everyday i get up i thank god. look around you. the answer is simple


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> You are indeed intentionally ignorant person. :laugh:




Maybe read it again...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

These types of threads make DIYMA look bad.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> you have got to be one of the strangest people ive come across on here. :laugh:







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

I800C0LLECT said:


> I think it's fairly simple unless you choose to be hard headed and spiteful...
> 
> Out of the box every amplifier is different. It's different because each piece maintains a different tolerance. However, simply adjusting it to operate within tolerance and comparing against another that operates similarly you didn't hear a difference.
> 
> ...


i agree. 

there are things that MAKE A GOOD AMP. 

very tight tolerance parts. when you have stereo or dobyd etc where information maybe identical from multipal outputs you want the characteristics to be identical.
circuity meaning some circuits ARE superior and the superior ones tend to cost more money and a harder to design.
this ranges from the power supplies ability to respond to extremely heavy loads in vary short notice to being able to discharge beyond what can be measured and considered to be beyond the capabilities of the reproduction to cause sag or delay in said delivery.

without make a HUGE LIST like why optically isolated power supplies have much lower noise floors and less noise in general or why slew rate denotes excellent transient response and better dynamics.

they do have amps that are superior there IS NO QUESTION.

I agree though that i can take a relativity cheap amp with excellent processing and it will sound good.

remember this the less you need to process a signal the better it will sound.

let me be clear(in obamas voice) 

I can make custom door panels and pods and use materials in the car to avoid refraction reflection etc... i can build pods on axis on the drivers right side to avoid using time alignment and 80% of the phasing issues in car. that being said by the time i do that my car is chop souie and its going to cost more time and money than a decent processor. will it sound better? ill bet my ass it will. is it worth the trouble? not in a new car IMO


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

I800C0LLECT said:


> These types of threads make DIYMA look bad.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


look bad? no its a SHAME that people refuse to understand the real science behind things. 

No we don't all have to agree, but yes facts are FACTS.


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

bassfreak85 said:


> look bad? no its a SHAME that people refuse to understand the real science behind things.
> 
> No we don't all have to agree, but yes facts are FACTS.


To remove bias you must accept double blind testing and the associated results. That's a fact. Rationalizing the outcome can be subjective but the outcome is clear.

You can attempt to rationalize whatever you want but the members here will speak up and speak out to make certain snake oil and budget don't inhibit the initiative of the hobby.

Doublespeak doesn't offer this thread, diyma, or anybody else anything.

Two amplifiers can sound the same. If a member wants to run PPI then he can be educated on the pros and cons. If he wants brax... Again, as long as he can live with the pros and cons. But you can achieve high end results with a small budget.

This applies to all audio. Don't sell me a $50K amp and tell me that the price is based on performance. Don't tell me that my wallet is limiting my ability to design anything that competes. If that's all you have to offer then this site isn't for you.

This topic exists many times over and starting your own version is nothing but self serving. So no... This isn't any kind of denial or personal attack. This thread is an attempt to validate your personal views. Trolling even?





Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

I800C0LLECT said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > look bad? no its a SHAME that people refuse to understand the real science behind things.
> ...


 i wanted to have an indepth techinical thread. 
Not dickeeed offing 10k for a blind test of 10 amps that is illogical and illrevlant.

What i want is to install 2 amps in car. Or sound room. No processing with highend drivers known for low distortion. 
I have no problem with not seeing the amp. I never said blind testing was stupid. I said his testing format was illogical. It is for varioud reasons.he knows it..

A budget amp like say a soundstream budget amp aginst a human reign.
Same power output set to 1% clipping and backed down a tad. Hear a few tracks on each. See if you can id one or the other. If you can gess higher than 50% of the time probibility states that chances are there is a difference.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Elektra said:


> Ok so $400 for 4 amps - so you would rather use 4 amps - have 4 sets of cabling - 4 places to find space to install them
> 
> So with a sub amp it's 5 amps? Even if they are small amps you still filling up your trunk with amps - why not buy one 4 channel amp?
> 
> ...


It's the same thing as paying big money for a amp with only a gain pot per channel but this would have independent power supplies


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

bassfreak85 said:


> i wanted to have an indepth techinical thread.
> Not dickeeed offing 10k for a blind test of 10 amps.
> 
> When i want is to install 2 amps in car. Or sound room. No processing highend drivers known for low distortion.
> ...


The topic is beat to death. Go read the others. Every site has this thread. It always come down to one thing... One group believes what they want and the other takes double blind testing at face value.

Instead of recreating the wheel... Why don't you believe those double bind tests? 

Why is it that there's always ONE guy who can invalidate double bind testing but he's never been empirically recorded? Instead he's the cable guy or dishwasher tech that was walking by. Does that guy invalidate the brains at jbl? I'm sure they'd buy him a plane ticket and offer a few bucks for his time.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> It's the same thing as paying big money for a amp with only a gain pot per channel but this would have independent power supplies


Its not that having independant power supplies are better its the fact that load sharing has it own unique set of factors that are rarely addressed. 
Same for channel seperation issues.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

I800C0LLECT said:


> The topic is beat to death. Go read the others. Every site has this thread. It always come down to one thing... One group believes what they want and the other takes double blind testing at face value.
> 
> Instead of recreating the wheel... Why don't you believe those double bind tests?
> 
> ...


Every double blind test ive seen was ********.
When you get 8 of 12 you can aplarantly hear a difference


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Fyi double blind test aren't realstic.
If that was in fact the case every car would sound the same esp with today processing power.


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

bassfreak85 said:


> Its not that having independant power supplies are better its the fact that load sharing has it own unique set of factors that are rarely addressed.
> Same for channel seperation issues.


JL loads every channel to verify performance.

Are you worried about performance per dollar or just don't trust the companies? Technology is neat but performance is obviously the driving factor for everybody on this site. That's why I said this topic is beat to death. Performance doesn't need to cost an arm and leg.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

bassfreak85 said:


> Every double blind test ive seen was ********.
> When you get 8 of 12 you can aplarantly hear a difference


Can you get 8 out of 12 consistently?

That's the real test. If you get 10 out of 10 correct... Can you do that again? Can you do it 10 times in a row?

My kid is 5.... If he gets it right once I expect him to get it right again and again and again. Otherwise it was a fluke.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

bassfreak85 said:


> Fyi double blind test aren't realstic.
> If that was in fact the case every car would sound the same esp with today processing power.


Uh... Where's the cause and effect? You clearly don't understand vehicle environment. In car audio you don't hear just the speakers... You're listening to the speakers + the vehicle.


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

I800C0LLECT said:


> Why is it that there's always ONE guy who can invalidate double bind testing but he's never been empirically recorded? Instead he's the cable guy or dishwasher tech that was walking by. Does that guy invalidate the brains at jbl? I'm sure they'd buy him a plane ticket and offer a few bucks for his time.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


That's the biggest problem I have. It's always one guy somewhere that one time. 

While thousands and thousands can't tell the difference. 

And the folks who come even close apparently need hearing that would be in the top .00001 of the population, and have to really concentrate to hear any difference. 


So if you want to split **** hairs, there IS an audible difference between amps....To a very select few, under very select conditions, and then they still can't tell 100%

I'm not spending thousands of dollars for amps that only MIGHT make a difference to two or three people in the US, and only then if I go pull them out of the car and set up a test lab for that special someone.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

I800C0LLECT said:


> JL loads every channel to verify performance.
> 
> Are you worried about performance per dollar or just don't trust the companies? Technology is neat but performance is obviously the driving factor for everybody on this site. That's why I said this topic is beat to death. Performance doesn't need to cost an arm and leg.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


i enjoy excellent engineering but i also wont pay outlandisj prices for equpiment.

Honestly if i was rich id probably by tosh or brax because i know tge engineering that went into them.

That being said i stole a xenon 200.1 from a guy here for under 300 bucks. By all means a decent amp with enough poser to melt most drivers. Lol
If i by more amps i loke the helix comps. I know my money is going to engineering and better parts and ill admit even if it doesn't sound better ill stare at it each morning.
Kinda like having the hot girl with the dry puss but shes so hot you float from the idea. Lol


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

So you agree that .0001 of some measurement isn't worth your time?

What if you could achieve that performance difference for a tenth of the price? Interested?

Edit... My bad, thought bassfreak wrote this. But this is the spirit of DIYMA. It's not the only theme here but we keep it real

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> Every double blind test ive seen was ********.
> When you get 8 of 12 you can aplarantly hear a difference


 Yes, it`s called luck... You haven`t seen a single double blind test because you obviously don`t understand how it works. 
6 out of 12 is 50/50. 8 out of 12 means that it doesn`t matter because it`s inconclusive. unless you pick 12 out of 12. Then you can give yourself pat on the back and title Golden ear of the universe.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Excuses- excuses is all I hear from you people...
> 
> OK, . enjoy your food.


You should know better to **** with a cajun when it comes to food..
I turned that stupid ass mobile site off.
See edited. Duck.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Victor_inox said:


> Yes, it`s called luck... You haven`t seen a single double blind test because you obviously don`t understand how it works.
> 6 out of 12 is 50/50. 8 out of 12 means that it doesn`t matter because it`s inconclusive. unless you pick 12 out of 12. Then you can give yourself pat on the back and title Golden ear of the universe.



Hell, I'm more forgiving than that...I'll take 8/12. But, that needs to be consistent for 8/12 tests.....I think I mentioned that the other night


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> You should know better to fuch with a cajun when it co.es to food..
> I turned that stupid ass mobile site off.


I was looking for bon Appetit meme, this one seems to fit the bill. :laugh:


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Yes, it`s called luck... You haven`t seen a single double blind test because you obviously don`t understand how it works.
> 6 out of 12 is 50/50. 8 out of 12 means that it doesn`t matter because it`s inconclusive. unless you pick 12 out of 12. Then you can give yourself pat on the back and title Golden ear of the universe.


How did you come to that logic?
From a psychological standpoint getting 12 out of 12 isn't really conceivable. Again I'm not sure if you don't have work but chances are 5 out of 10 you're a good guesser 610 there's a possibility of perception 7 out of 10 or more there's a very very good chance there is a difference being heard..


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

bassfreak85 said:


> How did you come to that logic?
> From a psychological standpoint getting 12 out of 12 isn't really conceivable. Again I'm not sure if you don't have work but chances are 5 out of 10 you're a good guesser 610 there's a possibility of perception 7 out of 10 or more there's a very very good chance there is a difference being heard..


You're making things up.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> How did you come to that logic?
> From a psychological standpoint getting 12 out of 12 isn't really conceivable. Again I'm not sure if you don't have work but chances are 5 out of 10 you're a good guesser 610 there's a possibility of perception 7 out of 10 or more there's a very very good chance there is a difference being heard..



If I put a quarter and a dime on the table, I can pick the quarter an infinate number of times. 

If you can hear the difference between two amps set to the same output within their limits, you should be able to do the same.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> How did you come to that logic?
> From a psychological standpoint getting 12 out of 12 isn't really conceivable. Again I'm not sure if you don't have work but chances are 5 out of 10 you're a good guesser 610 there's a possibility of perception 7 out of 10 or more there's a very very good chance there is a difference being heard..


If there no difference measured by oscilloscope you can`t hear it, nobody ears is more sensitive not human, not dog,or bat or ****ing shimp you ate yesterday. Prove it picking 10 out of 10 and make yourself big chunk of cash.
If you can`t set your priorities to engineering, design and manufacturing not ephemeris differences you think you could hear. 

So you saying you can` tell the difference in sound of snare and kick? you can`t psychologically pick 12 out of 12? 
What psychology has to do with it?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I800C0LLECT said:


> You're making things up.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


 Not his fault, he has wrong teachers.


----------



## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

bassfreak85 said:


> no you thinking a person can hear better than a test bench or better than recording the output signal and comparing it to the original signal is the stupidest **** i've even heard.
> 
> you are going to argue all amps sound the same yet clearly the high-end amps win 95% of the time. not only that but they bench better.
> 
> ...


I gotta jump in here. 
You're telling us that looking at the graph you provided from PASMAG, you could audibly hear that increase in THD from .01% to .035% between 500Hz and 10kHz?
I mean really? You could hear that?
If you could then I gotta say, you might want to look at a different career path.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Let`s say he can hear that 0.1 to 0.035 increase in distortion.. 

I feel really really sorry for him picking up speakers where normal level of distortion in good examples measured in percentage points not thousands of an percent.

If he can consistently hear difference in amplifiers why he refused to take my money?

Anyone tell me what is wrong with test I proposed.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> I was looking for bon Appetit meme, this one seems to fit the bill. :laugh:


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


>


Where is the beer?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Let`s say he can hear that 0.1 to 0.035 increase in distortion..
> 
> I feel really really sorry for him picking up speakers where normal level of distortion in good examples measured in percentage points not thousands of an percent.
> 
> ...


No one can hear that low of thd. You and everyone else seem to forget about imd levels which are always substautually higher.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Where is the beer?


I drink crown.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> No one can hear that low of thd. You and everyone else seem to forget about imd levels which are always substautually higher.


Why then you don`t want to take the test? You`ll still fail.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

PPI_GUY said:


> I gotta jump in here.
> You're telling us that looking at the graph you provided from PASMAG, you could audibly hear that increase in THD from .01% to .035% between 500Hz and 10kHz?
> I mean really? You could hear that?
> If you could then I gotta say, you might want to look at a different career path.


Look at the graps input power silly.. now retry that at q20 watts. Tgen on top of tgat measure IMD and see its probay 4% if not more..


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> I drink crown.


Crawfish goes best with beer.
That`s how it done where I`m from. 
Crown good enough by itself.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

SE 4200 | Arc Audio

Look at the imd on this very well built arc.
Those lesser amps dont get this detailed for a reason.. lol


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Crawfish goes best with beer.
> That`s how it done where I`m from.
> Crown good enough by itself.


Oh you from southeren louisiana? Beer is nasty.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> Oh you from southeren louisiana? Beer is nasty.


I`m from another continent you silly.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Let`s say he can hear that 0.1 to 0.035 increase in distortion..
> 
> I feel really really sorry for him picking up speakers where normal level of distortion in good examples measured in percentage points not thousands of an percent.
> 
> ...


I didnt say i can identify a specific amp. Thats not the issue. The issue for the 6th time is do highend amps sound better.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> I didnt say i can identify a specific amp. Thats not the issue. The issue for the 6th time is do highend amps sound better.


 What is better? let`s find out that first.


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Do amps sound different? Absolutely, and it's easy to prove. I can take two amps of the same model and make them sound different. Does that mean they can't be made to sound the same? Absolutely not. The point is, we know what makes them sound different, power, frequency response, distortion and noise are really the only things that make an audible difference. Power is an easy one, we all know a difference in power will be audible. As far as frequency response, there are manufacturers tha design their equipment to have a non flat frequency response but for the most part those are few and far between and with an eq in most of the systems here any differences can easily be corrected. I suppose if you didn't have an eq you could try swapping until you find one with a frequency response you like but you'd have to be an idiot to swap out countless amps for that purpose instead of just adding an eq. Distortion in modern amps also isn't really an issue until you push an amp near its limits or beyond and if you're constantly pushing your amp hard enough to hear distortion then you made a poor choice in equipment. Noise can be an issue especially with high efficiency drivers but for those using conventional drivers isn't an issue as long as you're not scraping the bottom of the barrel and don't have your gain maxed. Sure, we could argue that if we measure enough decimal places over every single amp ever made will measure differently but does it really matter if those differences aren't audible?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> I`m from another continent you silly.


Very few cultures eat it they way we do. I like VERY FEW beers and they are mostly exotic german beers that are very strong..


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> I didnt say i can identify a specific amp. Thats not the issue. The issue for the 6th time is do highend amps sound better.


Any for the millionth time.. as long as they are not clipping. No they do not sound better.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> Any for the millionth time.. as long as they are not clipping. No they do not sound better.


Leave the discussion for the knowledgable people.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> I didnt say i can identify a specific amp. Thats not the issue. The issue for the 6th time is do highend amps sound better.


If you can't tell the difference, then they sound the same


If they sound the same, then the high end amp does not sound better...


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> What is better? let`s find out that first.


If done properly the bench will tell all.
Even the bench testing we do is very simplistic.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> If you can't tell the difference, then they sound the same
> 
> 
> If they sound the same, then the high end amp does not sound better...


After such a extensive session would leave anyone fatigued. This is about music purity and having fun experiencing different shut.
I broke this **** down several times..


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> If there no difference measured by oscilloscope you can`t hear it, nobody ears is more sensitive not human, not dog,or bat or ****ing shimp you ate yesterday. Prove it picking 10 out of 10 and make yourself big chunk of cash.
> If you can`t set your priorities to engineering, design and manufacturing not ephemeris differences you think you could hear.
> 
> So you saying you can` tell the difference in sound of snare and kick? you can`t psychologically pick 12 out of 12?
> What psychology has to do with it?


Ok. Im going to go ahead and guess you never seen a o scope play music.. because its NOTHING LIKE YOU WOUKD IMAGINE.. lol


----------



## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

bassfreak85 said:


> Look at the graps input power silly.. now retry that at q20 watts. Tgen on top of tgat measure IMD and see its probay 4% if not more..


OK, fine. But, even at 4% you could not notice anything. Unless it's at the 10% level...some say even as high as 20% the human ear cannot detect distortion at such miniscule levels. And unless you are 12-13 years old you cannot hear anything beyond 15-16kHz anyway so, your frequency range is eve shrinking.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> Leave the discussion for the knowledgable people.


Says the guy that don't even know what resolution means.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> Ok. Im going to go ahead and guess you never seen a o scope play music.. because its NOTHING LIKE YOU WOUKD IMAGINE.. lol


Right... i work on amplifiers by ear.
Setting up bias by guess work..etc...
I have PHD in physics. Yes you can call me Dr Vic. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

I800C0LLECT said:


> To remove bias you must accept double blind testing and the associated results. That's a fact. Rationalizing the outcome can be subjective but the outcome is clear.
> 
> You can attempt to rationalize whatever you want but the members here will speak up and speak out to make certain snake oil and budget don't inhibit the initiative of the hobby.
> 
> ...




Honestly I don't think anyone here is qualified to partake in a double blind test... losing one of your 5 senses is not something you can switch on and off in 10mins 

Being blind for a short time can actually distract you as your brain is not trained to eliminate a vital sense 

I'll bet a blind person who knows music will be miles better than any of us..

The long and the short of it is we use all our senses together - that's way we have been doing it for all of our lives - take one sense away for a short period like a listening test is more destructive than constructive imho 

Most of us concentrate better when we use our eyes and ears... it's just the way we are built and trained 

That's why listening tests are not for everyone - it takes a special kind of training to do that test because you need to train your brain as to what you are trying to do...

I have witnessed a person get a 29/30 result in a blind ABX test... 

His exact words were - he has done this kind of thing before he knows how to listen...

That is key in a listening test - I'll bet 99% of people on this forum can't do what he can and I'll bet none of you will score better than 12/30....

Not because your ears are bad - it's because you don't understand how to listen and in a sense ignore what you hear... 

It's a art.. 

That's why I don't believe in these blind tests being the sole basis of a conclusion as many factors are actually unknown - like who are the people do the test? What qualification do they have to partake in such a test that will be recorded as fact later 

I mean in that test one guy got 8/30 - which means he basically guessed 

So is that the basis of results going forward? Based on a guy who guessed? 

Sorry I don't buy it... I'll bring that guy to your tests - he will pick a amp 20/20 times I am most certainly assured of this - but he will just be seen as a anomaly or a glitch...

Sorry that's not for me... 

I don't buy high priced stuff to show off or to get a pat on my back - I actually hardly demo my cars to anyone - my stuff my business that's it.. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> After such a extensive session would leave anyone fatigued. This is about music purity and having fun experiencing different shut.
> I broke this **** down several times..


Lol....If you have to concentrate so damn hard to the point of being fatigued to maybe tell the difference between a $1500 vs a $200 amp, I'd call that a complete ass kicking. 

The only thing you have broken down is spell check.


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

PPI_GUY said:


> OK, fine. But, even at 4% you could not notice anything. Unless it's at the 10% level...some say even as high as 20% the human ear cannot detect distortion at such miniscule levels. And unless you are 12-13 years old you cannot hear anything beyond 15-16kHz anyway so, your frequency range is eve shrinking.


I can still hear 18.5k and I'm far from 13. 

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

PPI_GUY said:


> OK, fine. But, even at 4% you could not notice anything. Unless it's at the 10% level...some say even as high as 20% the human ear cannot detect distortion at such miniscule levels. And unless you are 12-13 years old you cannot hear anything beyond 15-16kHz anyway so, your frequency range is eve shrinking.


Now im going to call ********. 1% is hard as hell to hear 2% is audible. 
Not all homoniic distortion is the same. It has a ton of variables. Frequency output levels. The type of distortion etc..
Had this discussion in the early 2000s i can remember who set it up but most crtical listeners could hear 2% consistantly 
Thats why the industry uses 1% thd levels.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I'd put money I could sit you in my car and play the same track at .05% though 10% in no order and you wouldn't know which was which.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

nineball76 said:


> I can still hear 18.5k and I'm far from 13.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


A simply test cd reveals my sytem plays beyond 20 to 20khz and its audible..that being said the highest ive heard was 20k. Id like to try higher..


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> I'd put money I could sit you in my car and play the same track at .05% though 10% in no order and you wouldn't know which was which.


Lol. I have the same tracks you do dummy. 
Case in point its not the same as harmonic distortion from an amplifier or speakes. Not to mention most loudspeakers have a unique footprint because the all inherantly have a distorted output.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> Lol....If you have to concentrate so damn hard to the point of being fatigued to maybe tell the difference between a $1500 vs a $200 amp, I'd call that a complete ass kicking.
> 
> The only thing you have broken down is spell check.


Anything that is memory based requires very carefull analazition.

For example. I found a simple site the other day testing to see if you can hear the difference between 128 320 and uncompressed..


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> Lol. I have the same tracks you do dummy.
> Case in point its not the same as harmonic distortion from an amplifier or speakes. Not to mention most loudspeakers have a unique footprint because the all inherantly have a distorted output.


You can have the tracks. You don't have a car that will reveal it. 
Unless you still think you can show up at a event with a CD player and some speakers and place.


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> A simply test cd reveals my sytem plays beyond 20 to 20khz and its audible..that being said the highest ive heard was 20k. Id like to try higher..


I'm pretty certain I can hear higher. But the iems I use fall off around 18.5. I should redo the test on Grado headphones. 


Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> You can have the tracks. You don't have a car that will reveal it.
> Unless you still think you can show up at a event with a CD player and some speakers and place.


My only issue really is a proper eq. While i know a 99rs will sound better its still great. 
Not to meantion its a long time coming i have a completely built system with drivers i designed and its impressive.
No im not braging im saying. You think i dont know what it takes but you dont understand.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

nineball76 said:


> I'm pretty certain I can hear higher. But the iems I use fall off around 18.5. I should redo the test on Grado headphones.
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


Yea. Those shiity speakers in my system play 20k. Yea they roll off. Not many silks don't.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Right... i work on amplifiers by ear.
> Setting up bias by guess work..etc...
> I have PHD in physics. Yes you can call me Dr Vic.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


Look at the waveforms. Noting like a sinewave. 100x more complex


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> Says the guy that don't even know what resolution means.



Music The passing of a discord into a concord during the course of changing harmony.
‘tension is released by the resolution from the dominant to the tonic chord

Physics The replacing of a single force or other vector quantity by two or more jointly equivalent to it.

The smallest interval measurable by a telescope or other scientific instrument; the resolving power.

Physics & Chemistry The act or process of separating or reducing something into its constituent parts: the prismatic resolution of sunlight into its spectral colors


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

While you all still ****ing that dead horse I tested new amplifier and it is ****ing awesome, what amp do you want me to dissolve? 

and it only takes 5.2A at 13.8V. Man supercaps rocks! 96% efficiency certainly helps.

2 hours on one 8000mAH laptop battery, I should make ultimate tailgate party machine..


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

The only time you spell right is when you have to copy paste something. 

Btw how do I not know what it takes?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> While you all still ****ing that dead horse I tested new amplifier and it is ****ing awesome, what amp do you want me to dissolve?
> 
> and it only takes 5.2A at 13.8V. Man supercaps rocks! 96% efficiency certainly helps.


Yes sulercaps are the truth.. lol but most arent great. Which brand and model you use? Probably very dynamic.

You keep talking **** about building amps but im telling you build me a unique prototyle yet you cant..


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> The only time you spell right is when you have to copy paste something.
> 
> Btw how do I not know what it takes?


why do phasing issues occur? Name one varible that causes distortion.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Why would he build something for you? 
Do you even have a job?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> Why would he build something for you?
> Do you even have a job?


Dont worry about me. Worry about yourself.
Ive told you so many times its irritating. Ive posted pictures. 
Holy crap you are jealous


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> Yes sulercaps are the truth.. lol but most arent great. Which brand and model you use? Probably very dynamic.
> 
> You keep talking **** about building amps but im telling you build me a unique prototyle yet you cant..


There is a difference between can`t and won`t, don`t you think mensa impersonator?

I asked you a simple question and you failed to answer, remember what mains you need amp for?
Boy, mains means voltage required for amplifier to work, 12V mains for car 120V mains for home and pro use in America and Japan, 230 in Europe. 

what did you mumbled in response? 
What do I use is proprietary information, I use top secret Russian military contractor.... not available in western hemisphere.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> why do phasing issues occur? Name one varible that causes distortion.


What your google broken?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> There is a difference between can`t and won`t, don`t you think mensa impersonator?
> 
> I asked you a simple question and you failed to answer, remember what mains you need amp for?
> Boy, mains means voltage required for amplifier to work, 12V mains for car 120V mains for home and pro use in America and Japan, 230 in Europe.
> ...


Mains is not even a term we use.
The correct term in input voltage.
Second i never once stated anything remotely hinting i was interested in home audio so i assumed you mean otherwise.
Ill write it off as miss communication. Not trying to be mean but that's a pretty silly question.
If you are interested contact me futher and we can discuss more detail. In the next month or two id like to get a prototype built. All ******** aside i have my own drivers and woofers ready to be marketed. Once i get out this legal ******** ive been fighting and reestablish everything im going to market the stuff. I will offer excellent stuff that is priced fairly.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> Mains is not even a term we use.
> The correct term in input voltage.
> Second i never once stated anything remotely hinting i was interested in home audio so i assumed you mean otherwise.
> Ill write it off as miss communication. Not trying to be mean but that's a pretty silly question.
> If you are interested contact me further and we can discuss more detail. In the next month or two id like to get a prototype built. All ******** aside i have my own drivers and woofers ready to be marketed. Once i get out this legal ******** ive been fighting and reestablish everything im going to market the stuff. I will offer excellent stuff that is priced fairly.


 Ahhhh, OK then. Rest of the world using term mains. internal amplifier voltages named rails. most using dual rail. Familiar? -+85V for example. 

You make your own drivers? Interesting, I do too. coaxes to be specific. 
Send them over I`ll make an amp for them.
email me if you want [email protected] PM also works.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

nineball76 said:


> I can still hear 18.5k and I'm far from 13.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


your probably hearing the harmonics of 18.5k produced by the speakeri know thats the case with me at around 20k


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

lol dude got a alibaba special and now he "builds" his own drivers


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DC/Hertz said:


> lol dude got a alibaba special and now he "builds" his own drivers


Give him benefit of the doubt until he can`t show for it.

Considering that China only country in the world producing neodymium that likely the case.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Is that dead horse ****ed up good, can we move on?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Give him benefit of the doubt until he can`t show for it.
> 
> Considering that China only country in the works producing neodymium that likely the case.


The build house is overseas. I choose them specifically because of the motors design. They rewound coils and add a THICK copper shorting. Im going to coat the cones. They are actuall too stiff. Lol.they also made a ceramic dome q" tweeter that i haven't fooled with much i will be tomorrow.
I do like tgem but tgey have room for improvment. Not to mention i just dropped them in the doors. Ill be toying around more tomorrow.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> The build house is overseas. I choose the specificly because of tge motors design. They rewound coils and add a THICK copper shorting. Im going to coat the cones. They are actuall too stiff. Lol.they also made a ceramic dome q" tweeter that i haven't fooled with much i will be tomorrow.
> I do like tgem but tgey have room for improvment. Not to mention i just dropped them in the doors. Ill be toying around more tomorrow.


 eminence building speakers here,freaking great drivers. You can call them and inquire about production, they take orders of reasonable quantity. 

There is always room for improvement, one should know when to stop. If you fix everything in first production who is going to buy second? 
If first production reveal problems then you fix it.


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Is that dead horse ****ed up good, can we move on?


WAIT...I think it moved...


----------



## MB2008LTZ (Oct 13, 2012)

WOW.....so I read like one page of this NONSENSE and was like WTF......I really thought there would be a lesson learned here...but apparently I was wrong


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

MB2008LTZ said:


> WOW.....so I read like one page of this NONSENSE and was like WTF......I really thought there would be a lesson learned here...but apparently I was wrong



So what do you think is right?


----------



## MB2008LTZ (Oct 13, 2012)

31 pages in 4 days must be a record!....AND STILL YET... I have no clue.... to the original question ????????????


----------



## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

Ya, maybe someone can change the name of the thread to 'move along - nothing to see here' or 'kittens for sale', etc...


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

I800C0LLECT said:


> WAIT...I think it moved...


If you stare long enough, it does look like it's breathing. 

Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> You are unable to read.....
> 
> Efficiency is new goal not sound quality. D class reached 90-95% as of today.
> 
> ...


That's a fact, sound quality in the 80's was better by far then it is today. Class D amps don't sound as nice to me. They are sure nice and small and you can shove one under a seat or wherever because they don't need cooling systems.

But they don't have that twinkle that a good Zed Nak Zapco had even in the 80's.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

truckerfte said:


> So what do you think is right?


I don't give two ****s about what the ones that say there is no difference in SQ from one amp builder to another. And the OP said NOTHING about diminishing returns ******** instead what takes place in the amps that makes one sound better then the other.

You Yahoos dragged this crap all over to nowhere. All I have to say is I really feel sorry for you fellas that hear no audible differences when a beautiful sounding amp is playing.
For those of you in that column I think its time to go looking into some hearing aids because you surely need them.

There are so many different variables in designs and its real easy to measure it by looking at:
Damping Levels
Dynamic Range
Total Harmonic Distortion
S/N Ratio
Power Bandwidth
Channel separation


Yea I'm done here this is just plain flat out a joke.

Elektra keep running those Brax amps I'm sure they put out Pure Musical Bliss. 

Good Riddance..................


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Marky said:


> I don't give two ****s about what the ones that say there is no difference in SQ from one amp builder to another. And the OP said NOTHING about diminishing returns ******** instead what takes place in the amps that makes one sound better then the other.
> 
> You Yahoos dragged this crap all over to nowhere. All I have to say is I really feel sorry for you fellas that hear no audible differences when a beautiful sounding amp is playing.
> For those of you in that column I think its time to go looking into some hearing aids because you surely need them.
> ...



So....The vast majority of the population needs hearing aids? 

I don't understand why you believers keep posting spec this and spec that....When the only thing that matters is what the sound coming out of the ass end of the amp SOUNDS like....Op was asking about AUDIBLE differences. 

And so far, the believers can only point out that one guy who picked out the right amp that one time with nothing more than a story to show for it. 

Meanwhile, in spite of thousands attempting it over the years....And by the way....It started when "old school" is all there was....Clark's cash is still in his bank. No one is showing up to Vic's house. If you could hear the differences, you would be booking a flight, not whining that the test is unfair, because you have to prove your hearing really is what you say it is, more than once. 

One group thinks they know. The other group says prove it....With big wads of cash. And still have their cash.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Marky said:


> I don't give two ****s about what the ones that say there is no difference in SQ from one amp builder to another. And the OP said NOTHING about diminishing returns ******** instead what takes place in the amps that makes one sound better then the other.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I am with you brother... and yes they are a sonic bliss above anything else I have had the pleasure of owning...

Match the source and match the speakers = divine intervention... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

truckerfte said:


> So....The vast majority of the population needs hearing aids?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Seriously - nobody here needs hearing aids 

They just need to learn to do something they not trained to do...

Double blind tests are as worthless as the time spent setting it up...

Not one of you can adjust to a loss of a sense in 10mins and come up with a intelligent credible result from it - take away your sight and you won't be able to walk a straight line - that I can promise you 

But you trust a result of a blind listening test? 

I'll put your favorite food in your mouth and you will spit it out as you can't recognize the taste...

Yet we believe a blind listening test... 

Do we enjoy a 50 piece band in a opera blind folded or at home or do we enjoy it more when we go to see it live? 

Does a movie scene have more impact without music compared to music? 

I think not...

Certain people can sleep well at night knowing that there $100 amp sounds the same as a $10k amp at a certain output - maybe - but since we never match each other's output to each other - EVERY amp will sound different depending on how the power was used...

Car audio systems/home etc are never alike and therefore they all sound different.... 

I mean do you guys go to comps and say "my amp is at 17.4v - yours?" No mine is at 18.7v - "damn your system should sound different to mine" 

How retarded! 

Just ****ing enjoy your system - who gives a **** about how much your amp costs compared to mine.... 

A guy who earns $100k+ a year can spend more on stuff compared to a guy earning $30k a year - that's just simple economics - don't like it get a better job... 

But don't hate on the guy who earns his $100k+ a year because he made better decisions in life compared to you.... 

Get over it...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Fact is amps are smaller, more efficient and better than ever, anyone who believes different is just a dinosaur living in the past.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Elektra said:


> Seriously - nobody here needs hearing aids
> 
> They just need to learn to do something they not trained to do...
> 
> ...



The blind tests are only worthless because the believers can't find anyone who can "pass" them. 

You are right, once in the car, and tuned differently they sound differently.....A system isn't just an amp, and the discussion isn't about systems. 

And to this point, no one has proven conclusively that there is a difference in sound in the amps themselves...In spite of years of trying. 

Frankly, the burden of proof is on the believers at this point, and you guys are failing. I see evidence from the science crowd, stories from the believers. 



Get over it.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

truckerfte said:


> The blind tests are only worthless because the believers can't find anyone who can "pass" them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Plenty have passed... it's just the ignorant that rate themselves far to much don't...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Elektra said:


> Plenty have passed... it's just the ignorant that rate themselves far to much don't...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Who?


----------



## el_bob-o (Nov 8, 2008)

Elektra said:


> Seriously - nobody here needs hearing aids
> 
> They just need to learn to do something they not trained to do...
> 
> ...



Just for clarity's sake are you talking about people being physically blindfolded in the tests you are referencing? Or are you referring to not knowing which amplifier is currently playing, thus making the participant blind in a metaphorical sense?


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

truckerfte said:


> Who?




Good friend of mine - he picked 29/30 in a blind test... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

truckerfte said:


> Who?


who has failed, i asked early on several times in the debate from victor who he has held this test with and failed, crickets


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

el_bob-o said:


> Just for clarity's sake are you talking about people being physically blindfolded in the tests you are referencing? Or are you referring to not knowing which amplifier is currently playing, thus making the participant blind in a metaphorical sense?




I would think physical blind folding - is stupid personally - but I believe that's what's meant by double blind test... I could be wrong.

This was a test where you did not see the amps and someone else was controlling the test.. you are just saying yes or no if you can or can't hear a difference 

As I have stated before I know a guy who got 29/30 - he even said he would have got 30/30 but for the momentary lose of focus and it was in the part of the test that was at low volume so he missed that one...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Anyone can can say they hear a difference. 
It's saying what they hear and then saying it again without knowing it's the same amp or not.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Porsche said:


> who has failed, i asked early on several times in the debate from victor who he has held this test with and failed, crickets


I think he referred to RCs test. Nobody has passed it in decades. 
There was also a ABX test done here. The results are typical to what you would expect, well what most of us would expect.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

DC/Hertz said:


> Anyone can can say they hear a difference.
> 
> It's saying what they hear and then saying it again without knowing it's the same amp or not.




1000% all the time and it's the same things I hear all the time - it's so obvious I can't understand why there is a topic like this...

But then again my method is a little different to most..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Well you are the select few.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

DC/Hertz said:


> I think he referred to RCs test. Nobody has passed it in decades.
> 
> There was also a ABX test done here. The results are typical to what you would expect, well what most of us would expect.




It fails because people think it's easy to do these tests - you think just because you have a car that you compete with that your some kind of super star because you are not beaten in your class

I have seen a guy who competes in solo Expert unlimited - he never loses even overall he wins 

In that blind test I referred to he only got 11/30 and this is a guy who claims to have done over a 1000 hours of tuning in his car...

Tuning and doing a listening test are very different animals... 

99% of the time the people who partake in listening tests are not trained to do these tests - and this blind folding business is absolute BS designed to swing the test heavily in the favor of tester..

Hell even I would not bet against the tester in that scenario...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

DC/Hertz said:


> Well you are the select few.




If someone who has beat the test can tell you how to beat it and you practice this - I promise you you will get 80-90% accuracy all the time 

Also knowing what you testing also goes a long way - I mean why test 2 amps that essentially are same in parts inside...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Elektra said:


> If someone who has beat the test can tell you how to beat it and you practice this - I promise you you will get 80-90% accuracy all the time
> 
> Also knowing what you testing also goes a long way - I mean why test 2 amps that essentially are same in parts inside...
> 
> ...


Intellectual humility goes a long ways in being objective. Harman has tested trained ears and found those individuals to be biased too. 






https://youtu.be/56xPMqZmejU

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Marky said:


> That's a fact, sound quality in the 80's was better by far then it is today. Class D amps don't sound as nice to me. They are sure nice and small and you can shove one under a seat or wherever because they don't need cooling systems.
> 
> But they don't have that twinkle that a good Zed Nak Zapco had even in the 80's.


 that is by far stupidest thing I `ve heard in this thread so far.
Congrats.

I promised to prove it to you people and you can collect 10 grand. 


Have you checked what class amplification is in that "Elite" of yours?
Because receiver manufacturers started using it for some models a while ago.
Only reason not everyone does yet is price.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> It fails because people think it's easy to do these tests - you think just because you have a car that you compete with that your some kind of super star because you are not beaten in your class
> 
> I have seen a guy who competes in solo Expert unlimited - he never loses even overall he wins
> 
> ...


Jesus ****ing Christ, , there is no blindfolding anyone.

You don`t understand the term. Or play dumb to find a way out of that humiliation you dragged yourself in.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Jesus ****ing Christ, , there is no blindfolding anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> You don`t understand the term. Or play dumb to find a way out of that humiliation you dragged yourself in.




Whatever...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Whatever...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




THere no way I can convince that horse to drink, only lead it to the water.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

If you have to justify the cost of something then more power to you. 
I can think of 10 other ways to spend it that make more of a difference. Especially in a car


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> I would think physical blind folding - is stupid personally - but I believe that's what's meant by double blind test... I could be wrong.
> 
> This was a test where you did not see the amps and someone else was controlling the test.. you are just saying yes or no if you can or can't hear a difference
> 
> ...


i think you need to watch this and look into some of the testing sean olive of harman has done.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

BBBBbut but but I know the guy who blows the guy uncle of whom can pic 29 out of 30 when he drunk and high on cocaine.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> BBBBbut but but I know the guy who blows the guy uncle of whom can pic 29 out of 30 when he drunk and high on cocaine.




Whatever - you said a many times nobody can tell the difference - I say I witnessed it first hand 

You dance around it and avoid it as if it's not there...

NOTHING you say will convince me to sell up and buy cheaper stuff...

I have done 100's of tests never walked away thinking I heard no difference 

Brings me back to my last real test...

Explain to me this Mr PHD...

I played a track on my MX2 which the female vocal reached a peak that created a distortion/sibilance that made that track sound horrible - played the same track through the Thesis Due and that didn't happen no distortion or sibilance at the very peak of the female voice?

Changed to a Focal Kit 7 set and that peak was handled beautifully the peak seemed to extend even further up - I chose the Kit 7 because the TBE tweeter can play flat to 40khz (yes we can't hear that - so hold your panties up) 

But - speaking to the Focal rep here he told me that Focal intentionally made the speaker play flat to double the human hearing capability so that when played at 20khz (yes I know) it's totally flat..

The point of all of this is that with the Brax it was able to extend the frequencies higher on the Brax than it did on the Thesis - what I did notice is that the Brax benefitted from a better set of speakers more than the Thesis did....

So why did the speakers distort on the Brax and not on the Thesis and why did the Brax excel with the kit 7 whereas the Thesis did not? 

Both amps set exactly the same....

Both played at the exact volume on the HU

Why? 

Riddle me that... no psycho babble BS - distortion is distortion it can't be imagined 

Nothing wrong with the Thesis - played it for hours on few occasions... 

Experienced the same phenomenon when I tested a Scanspeak 18W 2 different amps both measured identical one played the 18W like a normal driver you would expect the other made it sound like there was a tweeter playing - measured both with a RTA to check they were both playing the same frequencies - both played exactly the same frequency range 

Even my brother was very surprised as well - also I noticed when I played the one amp the Brax IPC 2F capacitor I was using was constantly showing action - say 10 times during the play back - the other amp showed action only once through out the same play back

Both amps identical in setup...

Riddle me that Doc.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)




----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

My intention were not to convince you switch top shelf amplifiers to lower grade why are you so ****ing obtuse.

I don't believe you know how to set amplifiers exactly the same.thats where problem starts effectively annihilating consequent findings.


Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> BBBBbut but but I know the guy who blows the guy uncle of whom can pic 29 out of 30 when he drunk and high on cocaine.


i know of atleast 5 people who have passed the "test"


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Elektra...I admire your perseverance and as you know I also run and LOVE my Brax MX4 amps. That being said, there is NO riddle to be solved since your listening "tests"/sessions were NOT done in a double blind setting (NO blindfold required!!!)

PLEASE watch the vid that SkizeR reposted above...it is a VERY informative interview of the leading Harman resesarcher and easily expalins why double blind listening test are REQUIRED even of (...or maybe particularly of LOL) "expert listeners" !!!


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> My intention were not to convince you switch top shelf amplifiers to lower grade why are you so ****ing obtuse.
> 
> I don't believe you know how to set amplifiers exactly the same.thats where problem starts effectively annihilating consequent findings.
> 
> ...




So a 1khz frequency generator played at a predetermined position on a HU say 70% of max volume - with a multimeter measuring the voltage and then apply the same method to the next amp

Even if this in not perfect we know that 100rms at 4ohms is 20v 

So when I set my amps for testing I usually don't exceed 20v as it's plenty voltage for listening even if the amp can do more than double that...

So I am not clipping the HU - I am not clipping the amp as I am nowhere near the amps limit...

What's wrong with that? And if that's not perfect it's still equal for both amps 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

seafish said:


> Elektra...I admire your perseverance and as you know I also run and LOVE my Brax MX4 amps. That being said, there is NO riddle to be solved since your listening "tests"/sessions were NOT done in a double blind setting (NO blindfold required!!!)
> 
> 
> 
> PLEASE watch the vid that SkizeR reposted above...it is a VERY informative interview of the leading Harman resesarcher and easily expalins why double blind listening test are REQUIRED even of (...or maybe particularly of LOL) "expert listeners" !!!




Would I need a double blind test to think my speakers are blown? 

Come on... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Elektra said:


> Would I need a double blind test to think my speakers are blown?
> 
> Come on...
> 
> ...


No. You need a double blind test to humble those very strong opinions and help you focus on objectivity.

This is what happens to a speaker in a car...



















Read this....

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/921990-post95.html

The vehicle is the primary influence on your systems response.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

I800C0LLECT said:


> No. You need a double blind test to humble those very strong opinions and help you focus on objectivity.
> 
> This is what happens to a speaker in a car...
> 
> ...




Ok I hear you...

But I am talking straight left and right 2 channel amp in a home style environment - no DSP no car environment anomalies 

Just listen to the amp that's it... in a car granted a few more things to consider granted

But that's a whole new discussion which skews the OP question...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Would I need a double blind test to think my speakers are blown?
> 
> Come on...
> 
> ...


No, of course not...why do you ask...did the Thesis blow your speakers?? Did I miss that?? ....sorry if I did.

That being said, any acceptable analysis of SQ of any single piece MUST use double blind testing in order to be OBJECTIVE!!!

This is NOT to take away from the enjoyment of music, but instead to add impartiality to the opinion and make it a VALID opinion, but that is something you don;t seem to understand our even care about.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

seafish said:


> No, of course not...why do you ask...did the Thesis blow your speakers?? Did I miss that?? ....sorry if I did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Look we not discussing how wonderful the stage was or how warm the sound was - those are feelings

I am talking wtf was that... that's not a feeling it's a concern especially if the amp is showing up a potential equipment fault.

See where I am getting at? 

Sure we all enjoy our music even if it's played through a boss amp.. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

I think it's been stated many times... Here's an example that comes to mind...

A TV picture can be measured and each model of TV that is exactly same may experience slight picture quality variations out of the box. HOWEVER, you are able to measure those variables and change settings so that they reproduce tone, color, pq and whatever else and match each other.

Amplifiers are the same. As a matter of fact, the variations may not be readily apparent. But even different model TVs can be setup to appear nearly identical. If they measure the same they will sound the same. Obviously, they don't all measure the same out of the box. And DSPs don't exist because people are inept. They're just another tool...

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Bottom line... High end amps don't eclipse budget solutions because they have something different that isn't tangible.

Hopefully, they're more expensive because they will certainly provide consistent quality. Furthermore, DSPs help bridge that Gap now more than ever with tools that allow us to bypass poorly implemented crossover sections plus a myriad of other options that help us correct deficiencies.

I understand being in love with the memories of older systems. My first love for car audio was a Kenwood amp and a/d/s speakers. I can't validate what made it my favorite. But I know what I like today. I may use a different approach tomorrow? But trying to justify value is very tough due to confirmation bias. I'm much more open minded these days thanks to the members on the forum opening my eyes.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

I800C0LLECT said:


> I think it's been stated many times... Here's an example that comes to mind...
> 
> A TV picture can be measured and each model of TV that is exactly same may experience slight picture quality variations out of the box. HOWEVER, you are able to measure those variables and change settings so that they reproduce tone, color, pq and whatever else and match each other.
> 
> ...




Yes sure SUHD or UHD HD etc 

But if we using a TV as a example - I bought a 4K LED smart TV - spec wise it's no different to a Samsung same picture resolution same specs just that this JVC is half the price...

Now I have a 10 year old Phillips 1080 HD TV 42" already was super keen to get this 48" 4K LED TV...

Switched it on watched for about 2 hours and put it back in the box and sold it.. went back to the Phillips

Now my brother bought a 50" 4K LED TV same specs as the JVC - it was miles better 

No amounts of fiddling with the settings on the JVC will get the picture quality of the Samsung - I would say it would be a miracle 

What's the point of all of this? Some times you can't match something else exactly... there will always be something that you can't match or replicate - and besides what do you reference to get it exactly the same - very difficult especially in a car as no 2 cars are built exactly the same and use exactly the same equipment 

The amount of time you spend or pay someone to do this will be an expensive affair which may just work out the same as just buying the same equipment...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

So my example didn't account for a range of technologies. No big deal... In audio there aren't a myriad of technologies to choose from. Additionally, those differences in television quality CAN BE MEASURED and verified. Same with amplifiers

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

I800C0LLECT said:


> So my example didn't account for a range of technologies. No big deal... In audio there aren't a myriad of technologies to choose from. Additionally, those differences in television quality CAN BE MEASURED and verified. Same with amplifiers
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk




Yes of course - but in the case of the JVC and the samsung it would seem Samsung 4K is not the same as a JVC 4K panel even though they suppose to have the same resolution - I would say my 11 year old Phillips had a superior picture quality to the JVC even though the specs don't suggest it would... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

So now this rabbit trail points to another issue. 4K resolution is basically twice as many pixels as 1080p. More dots didn't equate to better experience. You still have color deviation, lighting conditions, etc etc.

However, in a vehicle, total system response doesn't get better with higher resolution either because total system response relies on much more than just the amplifier. Seriously, go read my link to Andy W and Patrick's conversation.

Anyways, same story... The differences CAN BE MEASURED. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

I find it hilarious when folks use uber expensive amps and cables to tune their cars. All it tells me is that they have no clue on what sq really means, much less how to dial it in a car. 

Using examples of top competitors using these amps, is even funnier. It's almost as stupid as me thinking at 13 yrs, that if I wore the same wrist and head bands and used the same racket as Borg, that I could some day play like him. The top competitors are expected to be top contenders for the titles, manufacturers of these amps fall over themselves to get their amps in these cars. The top guys are where they are because they know how to tune, not because they use expensive equipment.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

I800C0LLECT said:


>


that what sq comps are.. lol


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

bassfreak85 said:


> that what sq comps are.. lol


you are just clueless, there is no other word for it. The emperors new clothes, read it.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > The build house is overseas. I choose the specificly because of tge motors design. They rewound coils and add a THICK copper shorting. Im going to coat the cones. They are actuall too stiff. Lol.they also made a ceramic dome q" tweeter that i haven't fooled with much i will be tomorrow.
> ...


i should contact them. Have you come up with the best sounding amp for me?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

sqnut said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > that what sq comps are.. lol
> ...


no im smart enought to know its ******** and biased


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

sqnut said:


> I find it hilarious when folks use uber expensive amps and cables to tune their cars. All it tells me is that they have no clue on what sq really means, much less how to dial it in a car.
> 
> Using examples of top competitors using these amps, is even funnier. It's almost as stupid as me thinking at 13 yrs, that if I wore the same wrist and head bands and used the same racket as Borg, that I could some day play like him. The top competitors are expected to be top contenders for the titles, manufacturers of these amps fall over themselves to get their amps in these cars. The top guys are where they are because they know how to tune, not because they use expensive equipment.


sq means sound quatitly. Faithful reproduction. Its simple as that.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

I800C0LLECT said:


> So now this rabbit trail points to another issue. 4K resolution is basically twice as many pixels as 1080p. More dots didn't equate to better experience. You still have color deviation, lighting conditions, etc etc.
> 
> However, in a vehicle, total system response doesn't get better with higher resolution either because total system response relies on much more than just the amplifier. Seriously, go read my link to Andy W and Patrick's conversation.
> 
> ...


sure they can.
And we arent arguning anything about car audio competition.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Elektra said:


> Good friend of mine - he picked 29/30 in a blind test...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So that one guy that one time....And undocumented....Even if you could prove it, it's ONE GUY, among thousands.....

I think the threshold you established the other day was something like this...



Elektra said:


> Would eyou agree that the percentage is above 80%? And if you agree to that then you will also agree that 80% is the scientific average for a fact and that 20% of the wins is based on luck or an anomaly...


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

truckerfte said:


> So that one guy that one time....And undocumented....Even if you could prove it, it's ONE GUY, among thousands.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]



That's what I believe makes it legit above 80%... anything under theoretically can be guessed - I don't see how but that's what I have been told...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

bassfreak85 said:


> sq means sound quatitly. Faithful reproduction. Its simple as that.


And you feel that the basic hu you are running, your amp and the pixie dusted speakers you make will give you that SQ in a car? :laugh: You probably don't even hear the difference between a 2 ch and your car and here you are talking about resolution and fidelity:laugh::laugh:. The emperors new clothes, read it. BTW your sig with the equipment you're running kinda magically disappeared:laugh::laugh:. Like I said, clueless, best fits the bill.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Think about that for a while....You said 80% is the average for scientific fact.....Yet are holding on to that one guy that one time thing. 

Doesn't matter of you are talking about one guy picking 29/30 from one test...Or one guy of thousands who took the test. 

And some documentation of that one guy would be nice...


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

truckerfte said:


> Think about that for a while....You said 80% is the average for scientific fact.....Yet are holding on to that one guy that one time thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's a local test done here about 3 years ago... same discussion on our local forum - cut a long story short we used a sound studio and 2 amps and about 12 people 

Nobody got above 12 only one got 29... granted there was a guy with double hearing aids who participated in the test - I complained about that and was told I can't discriminate and general population should be allowed 

Well because of that the test was a farce - all these so called sound gurus who claimed they knew there **** participated - I think it was a staged event - who brings a deaf guy to a listening test...

Anyrate - I saw how the test was done - the guy got 29/30 totally legit... 

But the sad part was notwithstanding he got nearly 100% the rest did so badly it brought the total average down...

It was concluded that amps don't make a difference - I just found that sad because of bringing dead guys to a listening test makes the results conclusive...

My thing is this if one guy could pick out a different amp 29 times out of 30 means he heard 29 times out of 30 a difference....

Some of the other scores were so bad I could have guessed 10/30 without even doing the test.. just say yes to all the answers and you will get 1/3rd of the answers right..

But it seems some of the scores were below 10/30.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

So, take the deaf guy out, and you have 1 in 11 guys who could not tell the difference. Less than 10% and far less than the 80% you say is needed to establish scientific fact. 

That one guy is the outlier you say Ragsdale is in comps. 

And are you going to tell us that this test is a farce, but will cling to the one guy who was in that farce as establishing fact? I smell bs. If you take his scores as fact, then you must accept the outcomes of the other 11, or 10 if you remove the deaf guy.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> I find it hilarious when folks use uber expensive amps and cables to tune their cars. All it tells me is that they have no clue on what sq really means, much less how to dial it in a car.


just like how gerald ditched his dsp for analog eq, and bought all expensive cables, yet dropped 8 points in meca from the tune i did on his old dsp install.....


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Porsche said:


> i know of atleast 5 people who have passed the "test"


What "test" how it was set? 

I know no one who was able to pick 20 out of 20 in double blind setup.

You are the one who knows people in industry, is JBL guy has not enough credentials for you? 

I trying to understand why you people disagree with my comparison technique but insist that you have to see equipment playing.

Visual confirmation means one thing and one thing only-bias.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

sqnut said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > sq means sound quatitly. Faithful reproduction. Its simple as that.
> ...


you are confined to car audio competitions.
Sick of arguing with you idoits.
You dont know what i know. 
You dont know how my car sounds.
You dont need to be a genious to understand depth width height and imaging. This is nothing beyond basic tuning.
You even know what hu i have?


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> What "test" how it was set?
> 
> I know no one who was able to pick 20 out of 20 in double blind setup.
> 
> ...


i know a lot of people in the industry, I'm waiting on names of people who you have done this test with and have failed. 20 out of 20 one after another is impossible, thats why the number is so high and thats why NO one that has the credentials that matter will do it. ear fatigue, 2nd guessing yourself, mind games, etc etc. 

you guys get your rocks off by trying to prove others wrong, reality is you haven't proven sh1t other than you are a bunch of jerks that like to entertain yourselves thinking you are more intelligent than others, get a life already. look at this topic alone in the last 3 days how it blew up so you could try to prove your point, you have changed NO ones opinion

i will discuss more when you tell me the industry gurus that you have done this test with and they have failed. i could careless what you or a few others on this forum who consider themselves as having it figured out thinks.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Porsche said:


> i know a lot of people in the industry, I'm waiting on names of people who you have done this test with and have failed. 20 out of 20 one after another is impossible, thats why the number is so high and thats why NO one that has the credentials that matter will do it. ear fatigue, 2nd guessing yourself, mind games, etc etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And again you haven't answered what is wrong with double blind test.
Every moron such as yourself can pick Brax over ppl when he see them.that is bias,don't you agree?



Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Porsche said:


> i know a lot of people in the industry, I'm waiting on names of people who you have done this test with and have failed. 20 out of 20 one after another is impossible, thats why the number is so high and thats why NO one that has the credentials that matter will do it. ear fatigue, 2nd guessing yourself, mind games, etc etc.
> 
> you guys get your rocks off by trying to prove others wrong, reality is you haven't proven sh1t other than you are a bunch of jerks that like to entertain yourselves thinking you are more intelligent than others, get a life already. look at this topic alone in the last 3 days how it blew up so you could try to prove your point, you have changed NO ones opinion
> 
> i will discuss more when you tell me the industry gurus that you have done this test with and they have failed. i could careless what you or a few others on this forum who consider themselves as having it figured out thinks.




And did YOU even look at the video interview of Sean Oliver that SkizeR posted. He IS the definition of "industry insider" and he has MUCH to say about how important, and definitive, BLIND listening tests are for judging the quality of SQ equipment (he is talking about speakers, but then again he IS a speaker designer). Why not take a look at that video and then come back here and talk about it....maybe HE will change your mind....if not, likely no one will. Or maybe you don't WANT to change your mind??


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> And again you haven't answered what is wrong with double blind test.
> Every moron such as yourself can pick Brax over ppl when he see them.that is bias,don't you agree?
> 
> 
> ...


moron, nice and classy sport. i did answer what is wrong with it. 20 out of 20 or 10 out 10 is absurd. you get ear fatigue, your mind wanders and plays tricks on you, your 2nd guess yourself because there money on the line, etc. do 2 test day for 5 days and see what your results are. i never said you have to see the amps, that really makes no sense does it so don't get me confused with others. i have asked 1 question from you and you have a BS answer. for someone so backlogged i would figure you were in the lab/shop designing amps instead of trying to force your opinion on others for the last 72 hours, have a nice evening genius


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

Victor_inox said:


> What "test" how it was set?
> 
> I know no one who was able to pick 20 out of 20 in double blind setup.
> 
> ...


Am I theonly one who would actually prefer to be blind folded? Eliminate other senses that you don't need to heightenthe ones you do. Hell, sensory deprivation tank with nothing but the ability to hear. 

Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

You want me to name people who can lose their jobs as result.why they are even matters? Harman kardon guy is not enough for you so is everyone else would be. 



Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> You want me to name people who can lose their jobs as result.why they are even matters? Harman kardon guy is not enough for you so is everyone else would be.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk Pro


you are full of crap regarding your "test". have a nice day/night and maybe you will hit 1k tonight on this


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

What I do with my time is nobody's business.i can have some fun on weekend.... 


Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> What I do with my time is nobody's business.i can have some fun on weekend....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk Pro


i can careless, you like to hear yourself talk and it probably flatters you that some of these boys agree with you. pat yourself on the back, nice job


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Lol. This is funny.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

So far only you and another 2 oppose my technique. 
Turn music on you hear something playing you know it's mx4 over unknown ampifier you think you hear brax you hit a button. When you do that you hear something else but you don't know what and you think is other amp.hit b button.repeat until 20choices has been made.
Takes few minutes,where fatigue?


Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Porsche said:


> i can careless, you like to hear yourself talk and it probably flatters you that some of these boys agree with you. pat yourself on the back, nice job


Well obviously you cared enough to "participate":laugh:

I don`t give a flying **** if anyone agrees with me, I always defend my educated opinion to full extent of my knowledge. I might change my opinion as my knowledge dictate, so I did on that exactly topic. 
First I was WTF that amplifier is so much expensive and pretty why the hell I don`t hear that, then i started researching topic further and invested in switching equipment. I opened that equipment to see for myself if there any tricks implemented... I found random number generator chip and some relays, in other words legit circuit to switch randomly between equipment.
They I started conducting that test for every person I know, when all of them failed including few musicians i switched my attention on other things that matter in amplification..


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> So far only you and another 2 oppose my technique.
> Turn music on you hear something playing you know it's mx4 over unknown ampifier you think you hear brax you hit a button. When you do that you hear something else but you don't know what and you think is other amp.hit b button.repeat until 20choices has been made.
> Takes few minutes,where fatigue?
> 
> ...


i told you my standing


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

nineball76 said:


> Am I the only one who would actually prefer to be blind folded? Eliminate other senses that you don't need to heighten the ones you do. Hell, sensory deprivation tank with nothing but the ability to hear.
> 
> Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


You want to find the truth- they don't, that's the only difference. 

They don`t need the truth- they are believers.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> i told you my standing


and I explained 30 times why it`s wrong.

If you don`t want to listen there nothing I can do to change that.


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Get your damn hands off of me! 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Bayboy said:


> Get your damn hands off of me!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk




Mine???



Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

No sir. I'm sorry. With all of the cussing & bickering, my mind started messing with me. Hallucinations of being beaten with esoteric gear. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Bayboy said:


> No sir. I'm sorry. With all of the cussing & bickering, my mind started messing with me. Hallucinations of being beaten with esoteric gear.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


speaking of esoteric.
I discovered "Esoteric Audio" cables a while ago and speaking of cables they are wonderful.... cheap as dirt on ebay better than $300 cables I`ve had before. I mean you can`t hear difference anyway but esoteric constructed better.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > i told you my standing
> ...


why whats wrong? 2 amp blind test?


----------



## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

there sure is a lot of trolling in this thread and yet not 1 person that i have seen doing it has been banned, what happened to this site where people actually talked about car audio and everything related to it instead of baiting somebody,


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Victor_inox said:


> speaking of esoteric.
> I discovered "Esoteric Audio" cables a while ago and speaking of cables they are wonderful.... cheap as dirt on ebay better than $300 cables I`ve had before. I mean you can`t hear difference anyway but esoteric constructed better.


Hmmmm.... will have to check those out

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Bayboy said:


> Hmmmm.... will have to check those out
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Youll be pleased or ill buy them from you 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> why whats wrong? 2 amp blind test?




Are you funny drunk or dumb drunk?either way put down that crown.


Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > why whats wrong? 2 amp blind test?
> ...


whats the problem?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> whats the problem?


you tell me


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > whats the problem?
> ...


no. 7 out of ten isnt guessing. Two amps abx test one budget one highend at 1% thd..


----------



## TaylorFade (Nov 9, 2014)

5/7. Would not read again.

Bassfreak... You should come to a competition. I'd like to hear your car. You don't have to enter since you think SQ competition is ********. Or maybe just enter the RTA portion of it. No bias there. 

Also... we drink beer with crawfish down here. Who the crap drinks Crown with crawfish? Gross.


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

Ok So let's assume or hypothesize that there is a difference in a $200 and a $2000 amp. Now do you believe all $2000 tier amps would or should sound identical? Is the increasing level of performance equal to every product at the same tier? 

Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

nineball76 said:


> Ok So let's assume or hypothesize that there is a difference in a $200 and a $2000 amp. Now do you believe all $2000 tier amps would or should sound identical? Is the increasing level of performance equal to every product at the same tier?
> 
> Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


That would be a logical discussion if we could even establish a difference between the cheap and high end amps. 

Maybe the golden ears could tell the difference between brax and sinfoni


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

bassfreak85 said:


> you are confined to car audio competitions.


No I'm not. There are no competitions here. 



bassfreak85 said:


> Sick of arguing with you idoits.


That's pretty much how everyone here feels about you too.



bassfreak85 said:


> You dont know what i know.


Thank God for small mercies. I'd hate to be walking around with my head full of crap.



bassfreak85 said:


> You dont know how my car sounds.


I don't need to sit in your car to know that it sounds like crap. The fact that you have no clue how to dial in sound in a car tells me all I need to know.



bassfreak85 said:


> You dont need to be a genious to understand depth width height and imaging. This is nothing beyond basic tuning.


Staging means 0 if you don't have the right tonal balance, care to explain how you would dial that in? 



bassfreak85 said:


> You even know what hu i have?


We all did, till you erased your sig.:laugh:


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> no. 7 out of ten isnt guessing. Two amps abx test one budget one highend at 1% thd..


7 out of 10 is till inability to consistently name the one.
You can swing it any way you like but it is.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

TaylorFade said:


> 5/7. Would not read again.
> 
> Bassfreak... You should come to a competition. I'd like to hear your car. You don't have to enter since you think SQ competition is ********. Or maybe just enter the RTA portion of it. No bias there.
> 
> Also... we drink beer with crawfish down here. Who the crap drinks Crown with crawfish? Gross.


I usually don't drink anything with my crawfish. 
I don't drink crown with my crawfish 
i never said i did. 

He asked wheres the beer, i said i don't drink beer. Let me clear that up. I have a few drinks before we eat. Then after the food has setteled i have a few more. Esp durning football season.

On the latter. Im all about competition.
But we know its baised

The clowns swear by double bind testing yet car sq comps are excatly the opposite.

Rta is cool no doubt. I want my system to be flat. I want it to be transparant and accurate. But what i dont want is someone judging the actual sound quatitly knowing anytjing other that listening. 

Matter fact they shouldn't beable to know WHAT you are using.

Fyi im from st martinville. If you know anything about st martinville you know who my ansistors are.


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

bassfreak85;44645098. said:


> Matter fact they shouldn't be able to know WHAT you are using.


This 120%. Get in, sit down, shut up, and just listen. Score the listening part, thenget out and do the walk around, install scoring. Only after listening is scored and totaled. 

Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

bassfreak85 said:


> Rta is cool no doubt. I want my system to be flat. I want it to be transparant and accurate.


Have you ever heard a flat RTA response in a car???:laugh::laugh::laugh: Clueless.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

nineball76 said:


> This 120%. Get in, sit down, shut up, and just listen. Score the listening part, thenget out and do the walk around, install scoring. Only after listening is scored and totaled.
> 
> Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


every judge i know doesnt ask about or look at equipment. they usually just wanna get in, do their job, and get out. bassfreak wouldnt really know though


----------



## TaylorFade (Nov 9, 2014)

bassfreak85 said:


> I usually don't drink anything with my crawfish.
> I don't drink crown with my crawfish
> i never said i did.
> 
> ...


I can't prove or disprove the bias of which you speak so I won't argue about it. I'd like to believe the judges will give me a fair shake so I don't sweat it. Besides... I don't recall ever telling a judge what I was running (or them asking), so I'm not sure where you're getting that. As far as I know, you're not required to tell them what you're running- as long as it fits the class requirements.


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> every judge i know doesnt ask about or look at equipment. they usually just wanna get in, do their job, and get out. bassfreak wouldnt really know though


I wouldn't either. I have no reason to compete. I wouldn't mind several people jumping in and taking a listsen and giving advice on how to improve something though. As long as they don't tell me that's not what Pantera is supposed to sound like. ?

Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> 7 out of 10 is till inability to consistently name the one.
> You can swing it any way you like but it is.


Ok. So lets embark on this.

Standarized testing requires you to get a 70% to pass. 
Wonder why that is? Victor im not questioning your intellegance. Your questioning mine. Lets not do this.
Im going to say again 70% leads me to believe there is a very strong possibly that there is a difference.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

TaylorFade said:


> I can't prove or disprove the bias of which you speak so I won't argue about it. I'd like to believe the judges will give me a fair shake so I don't sweat it. Besides... I don't recall ever telling a judge what I was running (or them asking), so I'm not sure where you're getting that. As far as I know, you're not required to tell them what you're running- as long as it fits the class requirements.


Its part of the scoring.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

sqnut said:


> Have you ever heard a flat RTA response in a car???:laugh::laugh::laugh: Clueless.


You' re equpiment is supposted to play 20 to 20khz flat. The recording is supposted to be mastered. Any peaks and dips compromise the true nature of the recording.


----------



## TaylorFade (Nov 9, 2014)

bassfreak85 said:


> Its part of the scoring.


Your gear is not part of the scoring. Have you ever been to an SQ competition? Or even read the rules?



bassfreak85 said:


> You' re equpiment is supposted to play 20 to 20khz flat. The recording is supposted to be mastered. Any peaks and dips compromise the true nature of the recording.


Flat using what material?


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> Its part of the scoring.


bashes sq comps yet doesnt even know the basics of the rules.. how did i not see that coming :laugh:


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

TaylorFade said:


> Your gear is not part of the scoring. Have you ever been to an SQ competition? Or even read the rules?
> 
> 
> 
> Flat using what material?


Installation is part of the scoring.
Dont think so. Take out you amps install some budget amps and watch your score change..


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

When you design a system it should be designed to play flat from 20hz to 20000hz. If not your doing it wrong.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> bashes sq comps yet doesnt even know the basics of the rules.. how did i not see that coming :laugh:


I know the rules.
You think you know what sounds good from a "sq" comp but refuse to use science to back it up. How convenient and logical


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

We've come full circle. Again. 

Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> Ok. So lets embark on this.
> 
> Standarized testing requires you to get a 70% to pass.
> Wonder why that is? Victor im not questioning your intellegance. Your questioning mine. Lets not do this.
> Im going to say again 70% leads me to believe there is a very strong possibly that there is a difference.


Who standardized that nonsense? I haven`t. You either hear the difference of you don`t. are you exploring theoretical impossibility of every circuit sounds alike? Even then you can`t pick one out of a few...
I was able to start on amplifiers designs only because i questioned "authority" on the matter. Or why would I bother? There is plenty very nice circuits created by people of industry.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

nineball76 said:


> We've come full circle. Again.
> 
> Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


repetitive tasks make you stronger.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> Installation is part of the scoring.
> Dont think so. Take out you amps install some budget amps and watch your score change..


not for the sound quality formats. only for install formats. when was the last time you looked up the rules? 1998?


----------



## TaylorFade (Nov 9, 2014)

bassfreak85 said:


> Installation is part of the scoring.
> Dont think so. Take out you amps install some budget amps and watch your score change..


Install is a separate class.

I think USACi did include install in their SQ scoring, but USACi SQ is non-existent. We have MECA down here now and install is *not* part of your SQ score. Like I said, they don't even look at your gear. I've also run IASCA and they didn't inquire about my equipment either.

Whether or not your score would change swapping to budget amps is kinda the point of this thread though, I suppose. And fwiw... I use "SPL" brand amps in my SQ install. But I've had quite a collection run through my vehicles in the last 6-7 years. I'm a bit of an amp whore.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

TaylorFade said:


> Install is a separate class.
> 
> I think USACi did include install in their SQ scoring, but USACi SQ is non-existent. We have MECA down here now and install is *not* part of your SQ score. Like I said, they don't even look at your gear. I've also run IASCA and they didn't inquire about my equipment either.
> 
> Whether or not your score would change swapping to budget amps is kinda the point of this thread though, I suppose. And fwiw... I use "SPL" brand amps in my SQ install. But I've had quite a collection run through my vehicles in the last 6-7 years. I'm a bit of an amp whore.


i stopped competing in around 07 or 08. they look at your wiring an equipment for judging and class placement. or am i mistaken and it has changed?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Who standardized that nonsense? I haven`t. You either hear the difference of you don`t. are you exploring theoretical impossibility of every circuit sounds alike? Even then you can`t pick one out of a few...
> I was able to start on amplifiers designs only because i questioned "authority" on the matter. Or why would I bother? There is plenty very nice circuits created by people of industry.


 its basically a world wide standard. 
you take a test if you get 7 out of 10 on that specific subject there is a good chance you understand the the subject good enough. 7 out of ten id say you can hear a difference but your not extremely keen. 9 out of ten consecutively and i.m positive you can but other factors are causing a deviation..


----------



## TaylorFade (Nov 9, 2014)

bassfreak85 said:


> i stopped competing in around 07 or 08. they look at your wiring an equipment for judging and class placement. or am i mistaken and it has changed?


I'm sure that was USACi since that's all that was down here for a long ass time. 

MECA classes based on speaker size and locations and what not. They do not include install or "what" you're running in the SQ scoring. It's the only SQ game in town 'round these parts. We have a lot of shows coming up. And as I mentioned... there is an RTA class that involves only an unbiased microphone.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

TaylorFade said:


> I'm sure that was USACi since that's all that was down here for a long ass time.
> 
> MECA classes based on speaker size and locations and what not. They do not include install or "what" you're running in the SQ scoring. It's the only SQ game in town 'round these parts. We have a lot of shows coming up. And as I mentioned... there is an RTA class that involves only an unbiased microphone.


Ive been out too long. Meca wasn't even around then. Matter fact i know usaci is still around they have a spl show soon.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> its basically a world wide standard.
> you take a test if you get 7 out of 10 on that specific subject there is a good chance you understand the the subject good enough. 7 out of ten id say you can hear a difference but your not extremely keen. 9 out of ten consecutively and i.m positive you can but other factors are causing a deviation..


Do you want me to go easy on you and change my rules?

You can take that "standard "of yours and stick it where no sun shining. 

If you don`t hear difference consistently then there is no difference. plain and simple like that. what other factors, source is the same, wiring, music tracks.... 
Then you take car as listening room and throw away that lousy 30% of lucky guesses you picked in controlled environment of bench testing....

If your fatigued in 20 minutes session, then you should go check if you have diabetes or something....
I have to stop replying to this thread, 3 days of this nonsense settling in, I am fatigued now. Or maybe it`s successful completion of next circuit and I feel spent. 
To conclude I`d recommend switching your attention to what really matter in sound reproduction, amplifier choices is not that. 
Install, drivers, attention to details.
Making something great with great resources is easier then make something ordinary into extraordinary install. Not every accomplishment worth remembering but born in agony one does.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

another good note.. doesnt have a processor yet is still concerned with how amps sound in his car. lol


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> another good note.. doesnt have a processor yet is still concerned with how amps sound in his car. lol


 i dont have a outboard stand alone processor my heat unit has a decent amount of processing. Its not nearly ss good as moderen stand alone units but its good enough to do some ta level matching decent eq and enough xover points to tune it to be good enough to say it sounds realistic.
Not to mention i just basically dropped the speakers in..


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> i dont have a outboard stand alone processor my heat unit has a decent amount of processing. Its not nearly ss good as moderen stand alone units but its good enough to do some ta level matching decent eq and enough xover points to tune it to be good enough to say it sounds realistic.
> Not to mention i just basically dropped the speakers in..


you dont need to try to convince me.. lol


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > its basically a world wide standard.
> ...


Blabber. Blabber blabber. 2 amps blind test set to clipping on highend passives. 
I dont want the 10k. You know better buddy 7 out of ten to low? 8? 10 out of ten is going to be impossible because of the nature of the test. Unless you train for it. It will not happen.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

why would you want to set them to clipping? yeah thats where you can really tell differences, but we dont listen to music with our amps clipping lol


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> why would you want to set them to clipping? yeah thats where you can really tell differences, but we dont listen to music with our amps clipping lol


 1% thd.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> why would you want to set them to clipping? yeah thats where you can really tell differences, but we dont listen to music with our amps clipping lol


you understand what clipping is correct? At what level do you say the signal is clipped?


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> why would you want to set them to clipping? yeah thats where you can really tell differences, but we dont listen to music with our amps clipping lol


All knobs to the right isn't how it's done? 

Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

nineball76 said:


> SkizeR said:
> 
> 
> > why would you want to set them to clipping? yeah thats where you can really tell differences, but we dont listen to music with our amps clipping lol
> ...


exactly!
I was told that the xenons input impedance was high but damn.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

truckerfte said:


> So, take the deaf guy out, and you have 1 in 11 guys who could not tell the difference. Less than 10% and far less than the 80% you say is needed to establish scientific fact.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Forget about the deaf guy..

Fact remains the only guy who was trained to do a listening test got nearly 100% correct over 30 individual tests...

Others failed miserably because they were not trained...

That's my point... 

It's like a maths test at school - one person gets 100% everyone else fails - why? 

Because one person studied the rest didn't... 

Same concept... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> What "test" how it was set?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I do - he in fact picked 29 out 30 so 9 more than your 20 out of 20... in fact he picked 25 straight times correct because the one he missed was right in the beginning of the test...

Just because you don't know anyone - doesn't mean no one has...

And why must it be 20 out of 20? Statically guessing 5 right in a row is incredibly hard... 10 guesses right is near impossible - 20 correct guesses you need to play the Lottery...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> you dont need to try to convince me.. lol


Im correcting you dummy.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Do you want me to go easy on you and change my rules?
> 
> You can take that "standard "of yours and stick it where no sun shining.
> 
> ...


Untill you get it out of you head that 100% means he is correct isnt realistic. It is possible but its very hard without tranning for it. If someone did it for a long time yes but just a trained ear it is hard. 7 of 10 isnt luck. If that was indeed tve case no standardized test would give 70% a passing grade


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Elektra said:


> Forget about the deaf guy..
> 
> Fact remains the only guy who was trained to do a listening test got nearly 100% correct over 30 individual tests...
> 
> ...



one guy is statistically insignificant....you said yourself that the threshold for scientific fact is 80%

trained or not, to meet your threshold, you would need 80 of 100 average people to score 80% or better, and repeat that 80% of multiple tests. One test wont cut it. 

i think its a bit funny that you still cling to that one guy in a test that you said yourself was a set up farce...yet his result is valid, and the other peoples arent....but you insist that his test was legit.

where is the link since you informed us that this was a local test on a local forum. 

and the bigger question, what was YOUR score?

Now, answer me this....if the test is so demanding that only specifically trained people can pass it, and only after arduous and fatiguing testing sessions, is that really even a contest? the other 99.999% of the world cant hear the difference. Neither can you. 


And for you "its impossible because of fatigue" guys out there, you do know you can reduce the number of correct responses to as low as 6 on the Clark challenge right? all you have to do is put some money where your mouth is. 

And since four of you are going to hold firm that there are differences, then there can be only one best. So, which is it? I asked this the other day, and no one seems to be able to answer....im calling out Marky, Porsche, Bassfreak, and Elektra specifically on this one...


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> one guy is statistically insignificant....you said yourself that the threshold for scientific fact is 80%
> 
> trained or not, to meet your threshold, you would need 80 of 100 average people to score 80% or better, and repeat that 80% of multiple tests. One test wont cut it.
> 
> ...


you aren't intellegant enough to call me out.

I'm going to explain this one time and one time only.
Suck a test has physiological affects. 
Every test does to so.e extent but this type of test where you are pressed for perfect or else you can't hear is illogical and doesn't actually prove said person CANNOT HEAR A DIFFERENCE.
Its flawed and rc knows it and so does victor.
The psychological affects alone will make it nearly impossible.
You are substituting psycho acoustics and bias for induced physciological affects.
Matter fact id bet a study on the physic of this induction would prove the missed questions.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

truckerfte said:


> one guy is statistically insignificant....you said yourself that the threshold for scientific fact is 80%
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well - I haven't been involved in blind tests - the only one which was conducted was the one I was part of..

By saying part of - I mean it was my amp as part of the test.

I was told not to be part of the test - not 100% sure why.... 

As far as concentration is concerned - not that easy to keep your mind totally focused without practice and training - it's pretty hard to keep your mind free of distraction for only a few mins and for some a few seconds at a time...

99.999% is that fact or a guess? 

There is no link - the forum closed down shortly after that - too many people fighting and swearing and being banned they decided to just close it... all data was lost when they did that....

I cling onto that "one guy" because he has disproven what you are saying - and because I am here 10000miles away he is a real world example which I have seen personally - I don't know anyone your side first hand so I don't know there credentials and capabilities..

I agree - I have not seen 80/100 people do this test personally - I can't ask this guy to do this test 80 times either... don't think he is too interested in doing it either...

He has nothing to prove.... and I don't blame him either.... I would love to do a blind test one day - so when the opportunity arises I would def do the test..

But for now I am satisfied that I have heard what I need to hear on my own equipment and since it's going into my car for my own pleasure - that's all that matters

Right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

The best one is the most realistic one. Duh.
And once we open up into much higher resolution its going to get better..


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Elektra said:


> Well - I haven't been involved in blind tests - the only one which was conducted was the one I was part of..
> 
> By saying part of - I mean it was my amp as part of the test.
> 
> ...


Science matters.
Truth matters.


----------



## TaylorFade (Nov 9, 2014)

bassfreak85 said:


> you aren't intellegant enough to call me out.
> 
> I'm going to explain this one time and one time only.
> Suck a test has physiological affects.
> ...


He's not intelligent enough to ask you what the best amp is?

It's obvious that the people claiming amps have unique sonic signatures have heard more than an amp or two. So... what's the best amp?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

TaylorFade said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > you aren't intellegant enough to call me out.
> ...


no

One- ive explained this several times and its apparant he cannot grasp it.
Two- ive answered tge question

Three it isnt relevant to the topic.

I feel that the highend amps at least the ones ive hard are very very had if not impossible to distinguish. The approach or exceed human limits.
I loved arc lunar and helix. Why? Ive always been impressed with them and its basically a preference. Honestly though the pg xenon i have is decent by all means and is very powerful.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Elektra said:


> Well - I haven't been involved in blind tests - the only one which was conducted was the one I was part of..
> 
> By saying part of - I mean it was my amp as part of the test.
> 
> ...



he doesnt need to do it 80 times...i said 80%

not only has he not disproven what i said, he is making my point for me...he has allegedly done this once, with nothing to back it up but what you are telling us. This is what always happens, one unsubstantiated person is held up as proof for the believers. The other 11 guys failed....the test is a farce to you because it didnt provide the results you are looking for.Especially now considering that you tell us that it is your amp being tested..Was the other one the cheap amp by any chance? This does not fit YOUR criteria for scientific proof. 

There really isnt any need for a layman to go find 100 people for a test. Just about every audio form has this discussion, some of them go as far as actual testing, always with the same results. No one has done as high as 65% in the RC challenge. And the believers always have the same excuses. 


You are absolutely right, what is going into your car on your dime for your your enjoyment IS all that matters....until you come into a forum and try to contradict what has already been proven time and time again.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> he doesnt need to do it 80 times...i said 80%
> 
> not only has he not disproven what i said, he is making my point for me...he has allegedly done this once, with nothing to back it up but what you are telling us. This is what always happens, one unsubstantiated person is held up as proof for the believers. The other 11 guys failed....the test is a farce to you because it didnt provide the results you are looking for.Especially now considering that you tell us that it is your amp being tested..Was the other one the cheap amp by any chance? This does not fit YOUR criteria for scientific proof.
> 
> ...


It hasn't been proven he cannot hear a difference. if he couldn't no one would get more than 50%

As far as your claims of 65% on the rc test i was around when it was faily popular and several people came close very close. They also said it was more psychological


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> you aren't intellegant enough to call me out.
> 
> .


Someone else can point out the irony here. 

Yet i did anyway.....so, what is the make and model of the best sounding amp ever produced?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > you aren't intellegant enough to call me out.
> ...


Again. The engineers strive to make the best they can possible make over looking nothing in order of perfection.
I shouldn't have to tell you this..


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> Someone else can point out the irony here.
> 
> Yet i did anyway.....so, what is the make and model of the best sounding amp ever produced?


Dont flatter yourself. I answered the question. Three times now. I wont be answering it again


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> It hasn't been proven he cannot hear a difference. if he couldn't no one would get more than 50%
> 
> As far as your claims of 65% on the rc test i was around when it was faily popular and several people came close very close. They also said it was more psychological


Isnt my claim, its his. And "several" coming "close" is far from scientific proof, by any measure, since thousands have tried. 

If you dont like ABx, then tell me, what is a better way to test?


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> Again. The engineers strive to make the best they can possible make over looking nothing in order of perfection.
> I shouldn't have to tell you this..


Make and Model sparky....


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> Isnt my claim, its his. And "several" coming "close" is far from scientific proof, by any measure, since thousands have tried.
> 
> If you dont like ABx, then tell me, what is a better way to test?


I dont know maybe your sound quatily competitions. Kmsl
Ive told you. Blind testing is acceptable but you have 

You cannot approach this like you are. It ISN'T the only factor.
Ive heard the difference in my installs. From 90db to 120db. It wasnt because i assumed i usually though people where full of ****. 
Ive been explicit. Ive had enough.
You can continue to deny the facts about the blind testing i choose to believe its flawed. I understand the varibles.

You can choose to believe what you want but you cannot tell everyone that there is no difference. 5 out of 10 guesses you would be a good guesser. ESPECIALLY IF THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE..


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> Make and Model sparky....


Your mom from the back @4
Dont insult me again if you dont want to be insulted


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> Your mom from the back @4
> Dont insult me again if you dont want to be insulted


can i get that model from crutchfield, or is it an alibaba thing?

I underestand, you have to toss out insults when asked for a definitive answer, because you dont actually have one.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> can i get that model from crutchfield, or is it an alibaba thing?
> 
> I underestand, you have to toss out insults when asked for a definitive answer, because you dont actually have one.


You are too dumb to realize I've answered the question.
Have a good night bro..


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> You can choose to believe what you want but you cannot tell everyone that there is no difference. 5 out of 10 guesses you would be a good guesser. ESPECIALLY IF THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE..


yes, i chose to believe papers by pointy headed scientists and research papers by people with letters behind their names over a drunk *******'s opinion. To date, there isnt one showing that a human can tell a difference between competent amplifiers that are matched in abx, or double blind testing.I dont believe anything. Because FACT doesnt need my belief or skepticism.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> You are too dumb to realize I've answered the question.
> Have a good night bro..



Nope, but I am INTELLAGANT enough to realize you are ducking it.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Intelligent


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Re read my last 10 post. You will get your answer.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> Intelligent


no kidding....


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> Re read my last 10 post. You will get your answer.


I dont see a direct answer to a direct question there....maybe i missed something...

....nope....just a bunch of bs that would make a politician proud....


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> I dont see a direct answer to a direct question there....maybe i missed something...
> 
> ....nope....just a bunch of bs that would make a politician proud....


Wow. I really gave you too much credit.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreak85 said:


> The best one is the most realistic one. Duh.
> And once we open up into much higher resolution its going to get better..


this would be the closest you have come to any kind of answer. 

i dont think anyone would disagree that it is a NON answer, just spin

you have "answered" once, and made some remark about engineers doing their best.. not three times. 

The only thing more insane than your "arguments" is the fact that im actually responding to them. Boredom sucks. 

Im done with your ass. Elektra may be wrong, but at least he can have something resembling a rational discussion.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> this would be the closest you have come to any kind of answer.
> 
> i dont think anyone would disagree that it is a NON answer, just spin
> 
> ...


Ill give you a answer tomoorow. After i clear it up for the last time.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> When you design a system it should be designed to play flat from 20hz to 20000hz. If not your doing it wrong.


Measuring flat and acoustically flat is not the same thing. If you knew what sound quality was you would know that.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> I know the rules.
> You think you know what sounds good from a "sq" comp but refuse to use science to back it up. How convenient and logical


They do have to safety inspect it first.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > When you design a system it should be designed to play flat from 20hz to 20000hz. If not your doing it wrong.
> ...


I dont care what your SQ competition says.
The frequency response should be flat.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > I know the rules.
> ...


Anyone of then certified in electrical or Electrical inspection?


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> I dont care what your SQ competition says.
> The frequency response should be flat.


It's not a competition thing. It's a sound quality thing. 
Keep shooting yourself in the foot. 
https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/fletcher-munson-curve/


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> Anyone of then certified in electrical or Electrical inspection?


Idiot. You check to make sure it's not a fire hazard. Fusing and stuff being secure


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > I dont care what your SQ competition says.
> ...


The systemd response is to be flat. Your bending the rules to human perception..
I can tell you right now. I do hearing test once a year not every ones sensivity is the same. I have reduced midrabge hearing my hearing in the higher bandwidth is more sensitive.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Go ahead and try to tune flat. I you even can, it will sound dead and dull with screaming highs.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone of then certified in electrical or Electrical inspection?
> ...


fire hazard. The ****ing car made it there. And whos to know unless someone is trained?
Those grsps are true in every settingbtobevery person. Go to any place that does physicals and look at hearing from several patients. You will notice that sensivity between different people are different. 
Ear shape, size im not going to get into it.
Mater fact out of courousity we got copies of our annual physicals and compared hearing capibilities and out of 6 people we all had different results.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Well then don't worry about competing. It seems like it's not for you. I mean you do keep telling me there are no events in La which is a lie. Seems like you just don't want to make a bigger fool out of yourself.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

I found a good article for you.
Not some ******** for sale to teach you.
Its pdf so i can link it but do a simple search.
The spiral shape of the cochlea increase low frequency by about 20db! Oppsite of what your graph say. And every hearing test I've ever taken..


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> Well then don't worry about competing. It seems like it's not for you. I mean you do keep telling me there are no events in La which is a lie. Seems like you just don't want to make a bigger fool out of yourself.


70508 zip.. i searched termpro. Check for yourself. Im not scared to compete aginst you.
Like i said i give you NEC guild lines on fusing yet you can't grasp that. Think im worried about your small talk and poorly guilded articles? Lol
You ca t heard the difference in 320 kpbs and lossless.
Lol
If you can tell me one just one difference you can hear..


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

All you do is link articles that fit your ideals. You have people here that are successful telling you to listen. You have never done anything remotely close to what you think is right. 
When I was working on my install that's based around sound quality you brought up your 155db great sounding car. 
You are butt hurt because people that know better are not agreeing with you and trying to show everybody else besides you is wrong. It's not working


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> 70508 zip.. i searched termpro. Check for yourself. Im not scared to compete aginst you.
> Like i said i give you NEC guild lines on fusing yet you can't grasp that. Think im worried about your small talk and poorly guilded articles? Lol
> You ca t heard the difference in 320 kpbs and lossless.
> Lol
> If you can tell me one just one difference you can hear..


I don't want you to be scared. Maybe you will get something out of it but I doubt it. You are to stubborn. I'm sure you would just say the judges are bias or dumb


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> All you do is link articles that fit your ideals. You have people here that are successful telling you to listen. You have never done anything remotely close to what you think is right.
> When I was working on my install that's based around sound quality you brought up your 155db great sounding car.
> You are butt hurt because people that know better are not agreeing with you and trying to show everybody else besides you is wrong. It's not working


Im not but hurt. Not a soul can prove otherwise. You are a moron. You can even fuse your wiring correctly.
I bought up the car because you said i never competed or never had a system or what ever stupid ass claims you try to call me on only to look like a fool when i provide documentation that proves you WRONG. 
Its simple as that. You are not smart enough to comperhend the facts. Then you try to send me here like someone here knows better. I sure dont see them. Not one of these guys can prove that a difference cannot be heard..

Where where you when dan wiggins was leading the way to high excusrion low distortion loud speakers?
Where where you when klipple was introduced to measure loudspeakers?
Where where you when lms was developed and split coil was patented? 
Where where you when these test where going on?
Guess where your going to be when tbe next generation of loudspeakers that use correction to increase transiant response lower back emf and optimize dampening.

Not there.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

It wasn't but a few months ago when I had to relize my 25 years in car audio didn't involve this side of the hobby. The way more technical side. 
I had to tuck my wang and open my ears. 
Once I got over myself my car got better.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)




----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> It wasn't but a few months ago when I had to relize my 25 years in car audio didn't involve this side of the hobby. The way more technical side.
> I had to tuck my wang and open my ears.
> Once I got over myself my car got better.


And you still can't fuse your wire?


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Oh I can fuse wire just fine.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> Oh I can fuse wire just fine.


you cannot. You are clueless. Nec says you don't have a clue.
Voltage drop over the conductor depending on ambient tempature(want the formula for ambient temp varations?)and conductor temp under a full load to avoid contraction and expansion issues. Type of fuse. I mean you know squat about fusing. One of tge most important subjects next to classification and divisions of hazardious or portentually hazardious areas.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

lol I said you can fuse 1/0 OFC under 20 feet with 300 amps. You can. It's not a debate.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

You do realize we are just dealing with this moron in shifts, right? Lol


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> lol I said you can fuse 1/0 OFC under 20 feet with 300 amps. You can. It's not a debate.


it is a debate. You dont know wtf you are talking about. Once again. Ofc means ****.
The cable you are using isn't even up to ul standards 
Once again in free air of a single conductor of 1/0 with an ambient tempature of 86° with a insulator tempature rating of 90° and LUGS RATED FOR 90° and made of copper IS TO BE FUSE FOR 260 amperes. This is the MAXIMUM AMPERAGE rating.
You have to take into accout all kinds of othwr factors im not going to list.

http://wiresizecalculator.net/tables/maxampfa30.htm


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm use to him. It's a never ending clusterfuck


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> it is a debate. You dont know wtf you are talking about. Once again. Ofc means ****.
> The cable you are using isn't even up to ul standards
> Once again in free air of a single conductor of 1/0 with an ambient tempature of 86° with a insulator tempature rating of 90° and LUGS RATED FOR 90° and made of copper IS TO BE FUSE FOR 260 amperes. This is the MAXIMUM AMPERAGE rating.
> You have to take into accout all kinds of othwr factors im not going to list.
> ...


You do know car audio 1/0 is the size of welding wire 2/0? Or do you not know this


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> You do realize we are just dealing with this moron in shifts, right? Lol


As far as im concerned. Not a ****ing soul here knows anything worth learning.
Using a flawed sound platform and illogical testing designed to fail because "personal money " is at stake yea swearing it is proof.
Wake up im smarter than you and that ********


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

You can't even tell us what sound quality is. You don't even understand how the environment effects sound. You think a flat RTA sounds good. 
Super smart you are.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> You do know car audio 1/0 is the size of welding wire 2/0? Or do you not know this


Dude. Are you that retarded?
You think car audio wire is better than ul rated and listed industrial wire that has a BY FAR superior insulator and is built specifically for the worst conditions on earth.
What i use is called DLO. 

Higher strand count is going to be larger in diameter but the circular mil isn't higher its actually lower. Higher strand count means less ampacity, as solid is superior in conductivity. So no it is not better except maybe more flexable. If you got that **** tested by ul chances are it would fall under the 75° rating from the jacket and futher derated because of the strand count.

You fell for the marketing ******** but dont feel bad. Take it from someone who knows these thing from practice and actually doing this ****.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

You sure do know a lot for somebody that don't know ****.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> You can't even tell us what sound quality is. You don't even understand how the environment effects sound. You think a flat RTA sounds good.
> Super smart you are.


Where did i say flat sounds good?
I know alot more about acoustics than you do. No doubt in my mind.
I told you several times sound quatitly is accurate sound reproduction. Thats exactly what it is. Hearing the sound as it was intended to be heard.
You have this ******** in your head, i dont know wtf you think. Apparently sq to you is some phenomenon that cannot explained. Do i have to define sound quatitly for you?
Its simply the quality of the sound. 

You swear no one can understand the slight delay in signal depending on distance from tbe mic in order to hear the depth or width or placment. You talk about the recording rooms effects on the recording.
News flash the room should be dead and silent. I dont want to hear delay reflection/refraction in the recording.

Kick rocks son


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> You sure do know a lot for somebody that don't know ****.


When intelligent people speak to idiots, idiots say they are crazy or wrong.
Imagine the fustration.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Oh look my sig back in 09. Prototyping my designs. Hmm that cant be..


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

so you can't explain what it is..


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Here's one for you. Is there a stand alone single source speaker, like a BT that can technically have good sound quality?


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Tell me with RC test - can you bring any amp? What's the limitation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> so you can't explain what it is..


What on earth are you talking about son.
Can ypu even form a logical specific proper question?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

It doesnt ead man. U swear.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> What on earth are you talking about son.
> Can ypu even form a logical specific proper question?


Im fine. I get the feeling you think if something has proper tonality then that's all there is to it. Btw you won't get proper tonality in a car without a lot of multichannel EQ.


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm having my second generation Cadence Flash amps recapped with all quaternary ammonium salt capacitors and power supplies upgraded to custom. Heatsinks milled to house push-pull brushless full roller bearing fans temperature controlled by digital microprocessor on separate power supply. Dynamic burst power guaranteed to triple rated rms even at 12 volts. Frequency response extension from 5hz-35khz. All at .003% THD

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> As far as im concerned. Not a ****ing soul here knows anything worth learning.
> Using a flawed sound platform and illogical testing designed to fail because "personal money " is at stake yea swearing it is proof.
> Wake up im smarter than you and that ********


It`s not possible to teach retards, just not. I gave up, others just having fun, are you really that stupid that you don`t see that? 

What flawed here is your ability to logical thinking.... 
Now tell me genius how is my personal money affected by what I said?

Take two amplifiers, match power, listen, don`t hear any difference to tell them apart, dismiss test as been flawed but failed to explain how it`s flawed.
****ing genius....


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> It`s not possible to teach retards, just not. I gave up, others just having fun, are you really that stupid that you don`t see that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




A response to my question would be great - let's not avoid this for the sake of the OP... 

Since you seem to be in the know - could you bring any amp to RC test and what amp does he use? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> A response to my question would be great - let's not avoid this for the sake of the OP...
> 
> Since you seem to be in the know - could you bring any amp to RC test and what amp does he use?
> 
> ...


 Use google to find out about RC test, I don`t give a ****. 
I told you to bring any amp to mine. 
You want to protect your investment- perfectly understandable.

being stupid for the sake of few grand, not sure about that.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Use google to find out about RC test, I don`t give a ****.
> 
> I told you to bring any amp to mine.
> 
> ...




First off profanity belittles you - secondly I don't care about your test I asked about RC test and thirdly you still have not answered my question?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> First off profanity belittles you - secondly I don't care about your test I asked about RC test and thirdly you still have not answered my question?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 English is my 4th language, what is your excuse?

Why would i answer anything about RC test- ask him. 
let talk about your agendas here shall we? 


List your amps for sale here and we'll see how many offers you gonna get....

You concerned your **** won`t sell so you avoiding testing that will show that sound quality wise it is not superior. 
You biased and dishonest, I hoped that you just mistaken but you insist on validity of your opinion inspite of legitimate testing procedure. 
Yet failed to point why is that technically invalid.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> English is my 4th language, what is your excuse?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I speak 5 languages - I have no problem

I don't have anything for sale so I don't have any insecurities 

How am I biased or dishonest?

You dancing around scenarios that you can compromise yourself in... 

You seem to avoid a lot - and you seem to harp on certain things a lot - this is a discussion yet you seem pick and choose what you want to answer or explain in fear of a contradiction 

Let's sort that out right here and right now - if Oxford University had to have a case study of what contradiction is - they will use your comments in this thread...

Now that that's sorted we can move on...

Question 1) the riddle me post - answer please
Question 2) your response to setting up the gains - you haven't responded - did I do it correctly or not


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I do think those MX amps are sexy. 
It does seem the ones that don't yet understand processing out way to much thought into the amp. 
No amp no matter it's cost will fix the environment.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Elektra I'm pretty sure in RCs write up he says you can bring your own amp


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> I speak 5 languages - I have no problem
> 
> I don't have anything for sale so I don't have any insecurities
> 
> ...


 you avoiding exactly the same question, what is in your opinion wrong with a test I proposed?
Until you answer that technically I`m not going to answer yours.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

DC/Hertz said:


> Elektra I'm pretty sure in RCs write up he says you can bring your own amp




Ok thank you..

The old Zapco amps used to have a bass bump built in - so that the Zapco amp used to sound much more powerful than a competitors amp at the same rating 

I believe Mosconi does the same? Or so I heard

If that's the case - surely you should be able to pick the Zapco amp on a regular basis purely because of the way it was made? 

Also what about a valve amp? Surely you can hear a difference with that amp? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> you avoiding exactly the same question, what is in your opinion wrong with a test I proposed?
> 
> Until you answer that technically I`m not going to answer yours.




Nothing I suppose - your test your money....

But you did say that you will manipulate your amp to match the Brax amp - one of your earlier statements around the 300 post mark 

Any rate it's irrelevant I am on another continent....

Come to my place I'll show you in 10 mins you can hear a difference.... if not I'll refer you to a ENT that can help.. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> you avoiding exactly the same question, what is in your opinion wrong with a test I proposed?
> 
> Until you answer that technically I`m not going to answer yours.




How about I supply the amps - would you still be keen on the test?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Nothing I suppose - your test your money....
> 
> But you did say that you will manipulate your amp to match the Brax amp - one of your earlier statements around the 300 post mark
> 
> ...


 If you call level matching manipulation....
HOw you can manipulate one amp into another without swapping components or adding circuits?


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> If you call level matching manipulation....
> 
> HOw you can manipulate one amp into another without swapping components or adding circuits?




Dunno - you said something about choosing an appropriate amp?

So would you still do the test if I supplied the amps? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> How about I supply the amps - would you still be keen on the test?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 why would I agree to that, I don`t trust you, you **** up one amp to make it obvious.

let's buy two new amps online and test that. sounds better?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Dunno - you said something about choosing an appropriate amp?
> 
> So would you still do the test if I supplied the amps?
> 
> ...


I sure did, comparing 200W amp to 20W one would be strange.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> why would I agree to that, I don`t trust you, you **** up one amp to make it obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> let's buy two new amps online and test that. sounds better?




Ahhh.... 

Here we have it folks - the mother of all contradictions....

700 posts of amps DONT MAKE A DIFFERENCE and he won't let me bring both amps....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> I sure did, comparing 200W amp to 20W one would be strange.




Actually 280rms amp - it's irrelevant 20watts to 20watts should be the same... right? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Ahhh....
> 
> Here we have it folks - the mother of all contradictions....
> 
> ...


 you bring your own amps, I just have to be sure you didn`t **** with them.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Actually 280rms amp - it's irrelevant 20watts to 20watts should be the same... right?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



and it will be, you can bring your own amps, I`ll verify that you haven`t played with them in front of you. 

THen you pick 20 out of 20 and leave with 10 grand or i`ll keep your 1 grand.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> you bring your own amps, I just have to be sure you didn`t **** with them.




That would be dishonest .... apparently I am so so you welcome to check them

Btw I know of a perfect amp cost me $10 I am sure the 50watts it makes is the same as the MX2's 550rms... 

I wonder what the THD and SNR would be at 50watts compared to my amp that measures probably 10000 times less THD and about 50 times less SNR.... 

Thinking of what I can do with that $10k....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> That would be dishonest .... apparently I am so so you welcome to check them
> 
> Btw I know of a perfect amp cost me $10 I am sure the 50watts it makes is the same as the MX2's 550rms...
> 
> ...


 Dream smart, you can buy a pallet of great amplifiers....


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Man... your illusions is about to be crashed.....


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Am I terrible person to whom truth as objective reality is only thing matters?

Why the hell I crash people`s dreams....


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

Victor_inox said:


> Man... your illusions is about to be crashed.....


"It's these prejudiced illusions that pump the blood to the heart of the biz" ~ Guns N Roses "Locomotive"

Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Dream smart, you can buy a pallet of great amplifiers....




Is $10 too expensive? After all they all sound the same? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

bassfreak85 said:


> A simply test cd reveals my sytem plays beyond 20 to 20khz and its audible..*that being said the highest ive heard was 20k. Id like to try higher.*.


First you can hear 2% distortion and now you can hear 20kHz? 
Your username indicates that you love loud bass and that you are 31 years old. If you've been exposed to loud sounds for any duration whatsoever you've suffered hearing loss. Yet, you ask us to believe that you alone are somehow immune to hearing loss both from music and the effects of aging. 

*You are quite literally full of ****. *


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Is $10 too expensive? After all they all sound the same?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You obsessed with cost, that is where you refuse to think.
You project cost of the goods into performance. common consumer mistake. 


So you hear my statement that you will fail comparison test and you decided to protect your believes bringing $10 known POS flea market amplifier to compare to $5000 amplifier- man you desperate....:laugh:

Let`s do it that way- I`ll pit together 50 watt amplifier that will cost me $20 in parts and on first 50 watt it will beat snot out of your Brax by every measurable distortion levels and you still will be unable to pick your brax 20 out of 20. 

I think it would be fair to everyone.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

PPI_GUY said:


> First you can hear 2% distortion and now you can hear 20kHz?
> Your username indicates that you love loud bass and that you are 31 years old. If you've been exposed to loud sounds for any duration whatsoever you've suffered hearing loss. Yet, you ask us to believe that you alone are somehow immune to hearing loss both from music and the effects of aging.
> 
> *You are quite literally full of ****. *


I stated exactly that 3 days ago. Thank you!


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

In the RC test, any commercially available amp of any topology can be used. They will be matched output, to within .05% dB difference, up to a max of 2% thd, from 20-20k Hz. Any processing or eq on both amps must be defeated. If the processing can't be defeated, an eq will be used to match the amps. The eq will go on one of the amps, the listeners choice.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

bassfreak85 said:


> You talk about the recording rooms effects on the recording.
> News flash the room should be dead and silent. I dont want to hear delay reflection/refraction in the recording.
> 
> Kick rocks son


In the normal course of your general and incoherent rambling, every so often you will let slip how clueless you really are. Remember the 10% distortion on sleakers, or the RTA flat, well this here is another one. The only room that is dead silent is an anechoic chamber. No music is recorded in a dead room. the recording contains about 30% direct sound, 70% is early and late reflections. In a good recording, you should hear the size of the room. 

Now in a car, you're trying are trying to recreate the recording in a environment where you're hearing about 10% direct sound an 90% is early reflections.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> You obsessed with cost, that is where you refuse to think.
> 
> You project cost of the goods into performance. common consumer mistake.
> 
> ...




Now.... what's the point of you making a amp? Even for $1 

I am talking I go to a shop buy a amp - not what someone can make up... I still doubt you can make a a amp for $20 to beat the snot out of a Brax - Brax has over 300 hand picked and tested components to be within 1% of each or even less - price of Aluminum alone won't cost less than $20 let's talk anodizing also more than $20 let's talk well over 300 components even if at 50c is still over $150 and I doubt you can pick up power supplies for 50c and a few custom parts outsourced for Brax 

The raw cost of that amp is nearly $1000 - let's talk cost per hour to build it and let's talk the R&D to develop it...

Your full of ****! 

You have on numerous occasions stated every amp matched to each other WILL sound the same! 

Now you saying it won't? Because it comes from a flea market - it still makes power and still does what an amp is supposed to do - yet now your changing the rules of engagement....

I'll bet you I'll tell you which amp is playing all day long... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Now.... what's the point of you making a amp? Even for $1
> 
> I am talking I go to a shop buy a amp - not what someone can make up... I still doubt you can make a a amp for $20 to beat the snot out of a Brax - Brax has over 300 hand picked and tested components to be within 1% of each or even less - price of Aluminum alone won't cost less than $20 let's talk anodizing also more than $20 let's talk well over 300 components even if at 50c is still over $150 and I doubt you can pick up power supplies for 50c and a few custom parts outsourced for Brax
> 
> ...



I don`t know where that $10 amp came from if you think it`s fare to bring it to comparison why not what I build? 
I don`t see a logic in your proposal.

Like I said before let`s buy two amps so we all can be sure no one ****ed with any of them prior to comparison.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

truckerfte said:


> In the RC test, any commercially available amp of any topology can be used. They will be matched output, to within .05% dB difference, up to a max of 2% thd, from 20-20k Hz. Any processing or eq on both amps must be defeated. If the processing can't be defeated, an eq will be used to match the amps. The eq will go on one of the amps, the listeners choice.




Tell me something - how many seconds do you reckon your music memory is? 

I am guessing 5 secs - by the time RC switches amps and restarts the track you have completely forgotten what the first one sounded like..

Hence I state - you need to be trained 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Tell me something - how many seconds do you reckon your music memory is?
> 
> I am guessing 5 secs - by the time RC switches amps and restarts the track you have completely forgotten what the first one sounded like..
> 
> ...


RC amp switching takes 20 milliseconds (0.02 of a second) and yet you`ll fail to pick your amp. Just like everyone else participated. 


no need to be trained just listen and push the buttons.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Elektra said:


> Tell me something - how many seconds do you reckon your music memory is?
> 
> I am guessing 5 secs - by the time RC switches amps and restarts the track you have completely forgotten what the first one sounded like..
> 
> ...


Machine switched, listener controls the volume, can use any commercially available music, for any length of time, and can switch back and forth between amps at will before making a decision,


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> I don`t know where that $10 amp came from if you think it`s fare to bring it to comparison why not what I build?
> 
> I don`t see a logic in your proposal.
> 
> ...




I am no cheat.. the amp has power earth and remote - it switches on it plays it has gains you can set it - it amplifies a signal - it's an amp by definition - it should suffice 

Look at these 2 amps...










EOS AE-130 - pretty decent amp for around $400 BNIB 










Audison Thesis Quattro - also pretty decent for around $2000 

Would you agree that the one will cost more than the other to make? The EOS in reality is a off the shelf amp rebranded - lots of other brands use this board.. cost to EOS for R&D is virtually $0 - just order 100 at the factory they box and brand it for you ship back to Moscow for worldwide distribution

Look at the TH4 board - no other brand uses that board it's jam packed with components - cost to Audison to design/build and package couple $100k - so do you think it should sound the same? I mean the TH4 is also Class A at 4x55rms normal power mode is 4x150 compared to the EOS at 130x4.... 

Do you not think the price tag is justified on the TH4? And do you not think that at 4x55 Class A mode will sound better than the EOS? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

None of them you bought on flea market for 10 bucks, what is your point? 

My point stays, comparable commercially available amplifiers will sound the same if level matched precisely unless someone ****ed with them.if you scared that my $20 amp will sounds better then MX4 at the same power. Why do you think that I didn`t spent as much of no time in RND then say AF or audison? 

Based on what information you came to that conclusion?


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Elektra said:


> I am no cheat.. the amp has power earth and remote - it switches on it plays it has gains you can set it - it amplifies a signal - it's an amp by definition - it should suffice
> 
> Look at these 2 amps...
> 
> ...


RC has had class A in his test. As well as Tubes, A/B, B, G/H


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> I am no cheat.. the amp has power earth and remote - it switches on it plays it has gains you can set it - it amplifies a signal - it's an amp by definition - it should suffice
> 
> Look at these 2 amps...
> 
> ...


 So you say you are no cheat and I suppose believe you?
Dude I live 51year on this planet, I know what to expect from people... 

Trust no one until PROVEN otherwise. That is my motto and it never fails.
EOS, Audison and mx4 will sound the same at specified set of parameters as stated 20 thousand times before.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

DC/Hertz said:


> RC has had class A in his test. As well as Tubes, A/B, B, G/H




If you listening to the music you have already failed the test...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> So you say you are no cheat and I suppose believe you?
> 
> Dude I live 51year on this planet, I know what to expect from people...
> 
> ...




I must be freaking gifted then...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> I must be freaking gifted then...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You just doing it wrong....


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> None of them you bought on flea market for 10 bucks, what is your point?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So I bring a 280rms per channel amp same power as the Brax would you be happy then? 

It's my business what the one costs and what brand it is... so long as it is commercially available? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> So I bring a 280rms per channel amp same power as the Brax would you be happy then?
> 
> It's my business what the one costs and what brand it is... so long as it is commercially available?
> 
> ...


I wouldn`t be happy with anything YOU bring, How I can bring it over to your brain that I do not trust you?
Money should have nothing to do with it but for you it obviously is. 

Jeez, you quintessential brainwashed consumer....


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Elektra said:


> If you listening to the music you have already failed the test...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sure you didn't really mean that. How on earth are you going to hear the supposed differences in amps unless you listen to the damn music?


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> I wouldn`t be happy with anything YOU bring, How I can bring it over to your brain that I do not trust you?
> 
> Money should have nothing to do with it but for you it obviously is.
> 
> ...




What makes you think I trust you? 

Money has nothing to do with it - it is a equally rated amp (as best as possible) put a Zapco name on it and it's already a couple of grand in price...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

sqnut said:


> I'm sure you didn't really mean that. How on earth are you going to hear the supposed differences in amps unless you listen to the damn music?




If you listen to the music you not paying attention your brain is already jiving to the tunes.. you have already forgotten the last 5 secs

Listen for errors in the music only - once you found it memorize it and switch amps and listen to the same error if the other amp does not have the error then you have distinguished the difference in the amps...

Just block out the music - just listen to faults...

Easy hey.... not really try it! Your brain will not be able to do it until you practice it over and over again...

You thought it's was all about sound stage and detail.... lol! 

No it isn't! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Elektra said:


> If you listen to the music you not paying attention your brain is already jiving to the tunes.. you have already forgotten the last 5 secs
> 
> Listen for errors in the music only - once you found it memorize it and switch amps and listen to the same error if the other amp does not have the error then you have distinguished the difference in the amps...
> 
> ...


If and when you ever learn to tune properly by ear, you learn to pick the smallest defects in what you're hearing and then relate that to your eq. Since you have no clue about how to tune a car, I would suggest that you stick to stuff that you know.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

sqnut said:


> If and when you ever learn to tune properly by ear, you learn to pick the smallest defects in what you're hearing and then relate that to your eq. Since you have no clue about how to tune a car, I would suggest that you stick to stuff that you know.




Why do you assume I can't tune? When did you listen to my car? 

Why do all installers think they are so much better than everyone else? 

Careful not to confuse EGO with arrogance - and considering that we not talking about EQ in a listening test it's completely irrelevant 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> If you listen to the music you not paying attention your brain is already jiving to the tunes.. you have already forgotten the last 5 secs
> 
> Listen for errors in the music only - once you found it memorize it and switch amps and listen to the same error if the other amp does not have the error then you have distinguished the difference in the amps...
> 
> ...


 Like I said you doing it wrong you listening to errors in amplifiers without music playing.... wow!
I can make another bet for you and see if you can match my 51 years old ears. If I can`t hear errors in amplifier idling you can` as well.
I trained myself since I was 20years old when worked for biggest production company in Russia.. Sometimes I can hear **** that isn`t even there.
One problem though how we gonna test that...:laugh:

BTW if you can hear errors on idle that indicate defective amplifier, plain and simple.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Like I said you doing it wrong you listening to errors in amplifiers without music playing.... wow!
> 
> I can make another bet for you and see if you can match my 51 years old ears. If I can`t hear errors in amplifier idling you can` as well.
> 
> ...




No.... I said block out the music .... mentally - not saying listening to errors in idling amps either...

Sheesh - must I write this in Russian? Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Elektra said:


> Why do you assume I can't tune? When did you listen to my car?
> 
> Why do all installers think they are so much better than everyone else?
> 
> ...


If you knew how to tune, you would not be talking about sq from amps and cables. You would know what really plays the biggest part. The fact that you're so focused on amps and cables also tells me that you can't hear the difference between a 2 ch and your car.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

sqnut said:


> If you knew how to tune, you would not be talking about sq from amps and cables. You would know what really plays the biggest part. The fact that you're so focused on amps and cables also tells me that you can't hear the difference between a 2 ch and your car.




If you say so.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Elektra said:


> If you say so....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's a fact :shrug:


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

sqnut said:


> It's a fact :shrug:




What that your assumptions are egotistical and arrogant ... yes I can see that's a fact.. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> No.... I said block out the music .... mentally - not saying listening to errors in idling amps either...
> 
> Sheesh - must I write this in Russian? Lol
> 
> ...


You did that? I must be missed where you said mentally, ohh wait you didn`t.

You are poser, you use every opportunity to show off, guess what, no one here impressed by your amplifiers. wrong crowd.
I `ve had all end every Brax model for the last 10 or so years. I love their engineering and manufacturing, yet I got rid of them all. they worth their money if that worth it for you, why the **** we came back to cost issue? :laugh:

Point is you can block music mentally and still be unable to pick your amplifier if second one not faulty. 
little by little we will came to agreement how you will lose your grand.
Pick RC test his admission price half that.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Elektra said:


> What that your assumptions are egotistical and arrogant ... yes I can see that's a fact..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is so lame, look in a mirror from time to time. The emperor has no clothes, yet thinks he is dressed in all the finery:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Elektra said:


> I mean the TH4 is also Class A at 4x55rms


No it's not, at best it's a high bias a/b.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I listen for defects. The ones I hear are normally do to me overdriving the signal. Like you stated about the female vocal breaking up. I had that issue with Sara K. It was me overdriving the signal.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> You did that? I must be missed where you said mentally, ohh wait you didn`t.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'll forgive you being English comprehension not your strong suite....

I doubt every amp is completely free of irregularities in it frequency response - that's why we have a term called musicality which usually refers to midbass - some amps engineer a frequency bump just for that - AKA Zapco (old studio and C2K) that's why the amps sound different when people play them - an immediate bass improvement simulates musicality creates a sense of this amp has more balls than the previous amp

I am pretty sure that even though you level matched a amp perfectly to another - there are frequencies or a group of frequencies that are non linear and if you know what you listening for you can detect them 

Yes a DSP can level the playing fields - no doubt about it but without a DSP how do you level that? 

You can hear a 2db rise at 500hz say or a group of frequencies 

Have you tried to level match 2 amps and then record music on each and then overlap the 2 to see if they are identical? 

If the 2 amps are totally different in design they should not be exactly the same..

Hey I just thought of a cool test... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DC/Hertz said:


> I listen for defects. The ones I hear are normally do to me overdriving the signal. Like you stated about the female vocal breaking up. I had that issue with Sara K. It was me overdriving the signal.


Soft piano music, then female vocal.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> I'll forgive you being English comprehension not your strong suite....
> 
> I doubt every amp is completely free of irregularities in it frequency response - that's why we have a term called musicality which usually refers to midbass - some amps engineer a frequency bump just for that - AKA Zapco (old studio and C2K) that's why the amps sound different when people play them - an immediate bass improvement simulates musicality creates a sense of this amp has more balls than the previous amp
> 
> ...


My English comprehension is fine, I don`t read between lines.... 
I`d let you do that test and publish to everyone to see but then you`ll screw it up anyway somehow.:laugh:


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Soft piano music, then female vocal.


No Vic. It's a $700 amp not being worth a crap. 

Or user error.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

ca90ss said:


> No it's not, at best it's a high bias a/b.




That too... it's gets freaking hot as well - but then so does the Brax - I would assume the Brax is also a higher biased amp as well...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

sqnut said:


> That is so lame, look in a mirror from time to time. The emperor has no clothes, yet thinks he is dressed in all the finery:laugh::laugh::laugh:




Careful you don't trip over your EGO... 

I am just waiting for you to bring up the top 3 cars again ... you know the ones you never heard being 1000's of miles away... 

Yet you know everything about them! As if you tuned and built them yourself... 

Is there anything you don't know or can't do better that everyone else? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> My English comprehension is fine, I don`t read between lines....
> 
> I`d let you do that test and publish to everyone to see but then you`ll screw it up anyway somehow.:laugh:




Probably lol.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> That too... it's gets freaking hot as well - but then so does the Brax - I would assume the Brax is also a higher biased amp as well...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is but it`s not A class.


so tell me how would you set bias high on AB class to cheat it into A class?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Probably lol....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Most definitely:laugh:.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

In the RC test, you can not use current source amps...that's the one topology that you can not use.

Then the amps will be matched to each other so they have the same performance characteristics...Bob Carver did this for Stereophile back in the day, and you can find the article on line.

All the test says and implies is that amps that measure the same sound the same. They measure different, they sound different.

Depending on the speakers used, it may take more work to make some amps measure the same as others.


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> In the RC test, you can not use current source amps...that's the one topology that you can not use.


Does anyone even make one for the car other than I think Phass did at one point?


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Elektra said:


> Careful you don't trip over your EGO...
> 
> I am just waiting for you to bring up the top 3 cars again ... you know the ones you never heard being 1000's of miles away...
> 
> ...


Did I say anything about the top 3 cars? You must be desperate cause you're going from lame to lamer. You talk about the sq from your amp yet don't hear the difference between a 2ch and your car:laugh:


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Elektra said:


> DC/Hertz said:
> 
> 
> > RC has had class A in his test. As well as Tubes, A/B, B, G/H
> ...


Pretty much. Most people dont know what to listen for


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > As far as im concerned. Not a ****ing soul here knows anything worth learning.
> ...


we went over this. Not to mention your test is a joke.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Soft piano music, then female vocal.


No noise floor. Then texture..tone dynamics.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> we went over this. Not to mention your test is a joke.


Yes we did, there is two jokes in this thread you and another one.:laugh:


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

PPI_GUY said:


> First you can hear 2% distortion and now you can hear 20kHz?
> Your username indicates that you love loud bass and that you are 31 years old. If you've been exposed to loud sounds for any duration whatsoever you've suffered hearing loss. Yet, you ask us to believe that you alone are somehow immune to hearing loss both from music and the effects of aging.
> 
> *You are quite literally full of ****. *


Hearing lost yea. But knowing what to look for isnt affect by the loss i do have. Plus i never listen to it longer than a minute or so because im not retarded.
My hearing is fine.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Yes we did, there is two jokes in this thread you and another one.:laugh:


You want the money for the prototype first? So i can compare?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Yes we did, there is two jokes in this thread you and another one.:laugh:


When u grow a set of balls lwt me know.  imm take them from u..


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> You want the money for the prototype first? So i can compare?


I don`t want your anything.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> It`s not possible to teach retards, just not. I gave up, others just having fun, are you really that stupid that you don`t see that?
> 
> What flawed here is your ability to logical thinking....
> Now tell me genius how is my personal money affected by what I said?
> ...


I listed 3 parameters that you could would and will hear v in a listening test. Noise and noise floor being the major dead give away. Its not even a question. 2+db noise floor is audible.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> I listed 3 parameters that you could would and will hear v in a listening test. Noise and noise floor being the major dead give away. Its not even a question. 2+db noise floor is audible.


so you can hear SNR110 vs 126?

Dude use proper names, noise floor is made up for imbeciles parameter.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

*DIYMA...*


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> You did that? I must be missed where you said mentally, ohh wait you didn`t.
> 
> You are poser, you use every opportunity to show off, guess what, no one here impressed by your amplifiers. wrong crowd.
> I `ve had all end every Brax model for the last 10 or so years. I love their engineering and manufacturing, yet I got rid of them all. they worth their money if that worth it for you, why the **** we came back to cost issue? :laugh:
> ...


Hold on a minute there Vic................ I'm kinda impressed myself.

I have a hard time not drooling on myself while looking at any of that AudioTec stuff. I'm getting a bit tired of having to change my shirts lately...... so something is going to have to give.

Come on man you have to admit that those Nazi's are doing the world some good with that line of amplification.

Hayao Helix maybe Huh --------------------Yea Baby


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Oh crap I said I was punching out of this thread didn't I ==============Darn It


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Marky said:


> Hold on a minute there Vic................ I'm kinda impressed myself.
> 
> I have a hard time not drooling on myself while looking at any of that AudioTec stuff. I'm getting a bit tired of having to change my shirts lately...... so something is going to have to give.
> 
> ...


They do, wonderful piece of engineering, too bad you can`t hear a difference between them. I admitted that many many times before...


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Marky said:


> Oh crap I said I was punching out of this thread didn't I ==============Darn It


It`s like moth flying to the light, you know it`s damaging buy can`t resist, entertainment factor is too high. :laugh:


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> It`s like moth flying to the light, you know it`s damaging buy can`t resist, entertainment factor is too high. :laugh:


Oh man yea I think you have some truth there maybe.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Bassfag85 wouldn't know a good sounding 2 channel if it hit him in the face. I bet he would think it's crap because it don't sound like his garbage.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

DC/Hertz said:


> Bassfag85 wouldn't know a good sounding 2 channel if it hit him in the face. I bet he would think it's crap because it don't sound like his garbage.


aww, come on, dont insult homos like that. I even edited out where i called him a drunk ******** last night. The guy can hear like a god, tune like jesus christ, spit out facts like Enstien, and a player extraordinaire, Hes so good he can talk my old lady into a 3 way with some other chick.(Dont have the heart to tell him just asking would be far less effort...and he would end up with the same result, unless the chick is hot enough to deal with a MENSA poser...yeah, she a real deal member with a 157, on the old scale)


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Man you guys play rough


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

I get your point that all amplifiers do the same thing. In simple terms they all are nothing more then a power supply running through a control valve. That valve throttles up and down mirroring the audio signal coming through it. And your speakers /drivers are consuming what its making.
Everything that's produced has strengths and weaknesses, whether it be a car airplane or pocket *****. 
That's my extent of knowledge in the amplification world. But I just cant see everything being identical in sound or quality. There are so many variables involved.
I remember my wife. girl friend at the time had a little Honda Sport 1500CC car. Her dad bought her and her sister one, Karen's was black and her sisters was red. They were the same EXACT car but they were different handling and the red one smoked the black one. 
They were both brand spanking new and built the same day, but different they were. I think everything is including us people.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

This STUPID computer........I didn't press Post ????

Anyways, Vic I'm sure you have sound processors that have the ability to lock on frequency to frequency and cross everything over at the same exact point. So I'm sure you know what your talking about when you say they sound the same. 

I'm looking at it as letting everything run loose without any control or manipulation and see what the final result is. This thread is very interesting as far as the human nature aspect of it..

I'm a dumb ass pipe fitter with 100% zero electronics experience or knowledge. I don't have a clue how these things work. I'm still dumbfounded that they do work and work as well as they do. I'm glad there's guys like you out there in the world so I can enjoy music like I do.

I'm going to leave this here: I truly wish you were close enough for me to swing by your shop and hear what you have setup. I trust your opinion I think that I'm just looking at it in a Simpleton viewpoint. 

Ok now I'm hopping out again LMAO


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sqnut said:


> In the normal course of your general and incoherent rambling, every so often you will let slip how clueless you really are. Remember the 10% distortion on sleakers, or the RTA flat, well this here is another one. The only room that is dead silent is an anechoic chamber. No music is recorded in a dead room. the recording contains about 30% direct sound, 70% is early and late reflections. In a good recording, you should hear the size of the room.
> 
> Now in a car, you're trying are trying to recreate the recording in a environment where you're hearing about 10% direct sound an 90% is early reflections.


Repeating this, just in case the mensa qualified, bass loving dude with a system capable of playing 20-20Khz flat with a 3 band parametric as the ONLY dsp, missed this. :laugh:


----------



## TaylorFade (Nov 9, 2014)

MECA SQ triple point event at New Orleans motorsports park on May 6th.

Just throwing that out there.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

sqnut said:


> sqnut said:
> 
> 
> > In the normal course of your general and incoherent rambling, every so often you will let slip how clueless you really are. Remember the 10% distortion on sleakers, or the RTA flat, well this here is another one. The only room that is dead silent is an anechoic chamber. No music is recorded in a dead room. the recording contains about 30% direct sound, 70% is early and late reflections. In a good recording, you should hear the size of the room.
> ...


you dont have a clue. You dont want te rooms acoustics..
3 band? Lol
Your an idiot.
Last thing you want is the room acoustics in a great recording. I have listening to a recording of live music.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Marky said:


> I get your point that all amplifiers do the same thing. In simple terms they all are nothing more then a power supply running through a control valve. That valve throttles up and down mirroring the audio signal coming through it. And your speakers /drivers are consuming what its making.
> Everything that's produced has strengths and weaknesses, whether it be a car airplane or pocket *****.
> That's my extent of knowledge in the amplification world. But I just cant see everything being identical in sound or quality. There are so many variables involved.
> I remember my wife. girl friend at the time had a little Honda Sport 1500CC car. Her dad bought her and her sister one, Karen's was black and her sisters was red. They were the same EXACT car but they were different handling and the red one smoked the black one.
> They were both brand spanking new and built the same day, but different they were. I think everything is including us people.


 That analogy is not completely correct.

Amplifier suppose to take signal and increase voltage and current ability
, this is it, fancy filters extra. 
If one honda perform better than other exactly the same it`s faulty.same apply to amplifiers of the same model. 
Some of Mcintosh amplifiers MC420 MC 423 mc 425 in fact chip amplifiers.

If you think that it sounds any better then this 150W Amplifier complete board 2SA1216 2SC2922 ( Voice of Berlin 933 line ) | eBay you are mistaken. in fact those chips makes it measure better not worse.


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Is it tough to get my own power supply and add a heatsink?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I800C0LLECT said:


> Is it tough to get my own power supply and add a heatsink?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


 Say again?


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> you dont have a clue. You dont want te rooms acoustics..
> 3 band? Lol
> Your an idiot.
> Last thing you want is the room acoustics in a great recording. I have listening to a recording of live music.


If you have a car that will show the studio you will hear it. 
It's part of having a sound quality system.


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Say again?


How hard is it to put that in my own vehicle? 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

And YES PEOPLE DO RECORD IN Anechoic chambers..
Do i need to prove this **** to you too?


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

TaylorFade said:


> MECA SQ triple point event at New Orleans motorsports park on May 6th.
> 
> Just throwing that out there.


I'm trying to get out there. I took the fam there last weekend. We stayed down on canal street by the pink berry.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I800C0LLECT said:


> How hard is it to put that in my own vehicle?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



Please ask in complete sentences. I don`t want to guess what power supply you talking about.

Power supply is most important part of any amplifier, Car amplifiers use switchers to make dual rail -+50-100V out or single rail 12V. 

they could be regulated or unregulated. When you see amplifier making same power at any load that would be regulated power supply, unregulated could be making -+60 V at 12V and 76V at 13.8 and -+80V at 14.4. consequent amplifier section increase output proportionally. D class amplifiers is very close theoretically to switching power supplies but operates at much higher frequency. best production amps JL audio does switching at 650KHz while power supply switching at 30KHz. I have a circuit that is switching at 1.2GHz but using it with 45KhZ power supply.


----------



## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Quite the nola landmark. Last time I was in Times square I had a fabulous lunch at the olive garden.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> bassfreak85 said:
> 
> 
> > you dont have a clue. You dont want te rooms acoustics..
> ...


every artist records and masters music differently. 
If you want the most realistic natural sound its the best option.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anechoic_chamber


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

I800C0LLECT said:


> Is it tough to get my own power supply and add a heatsink?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


500W DC12V to DC±45V Switching Boost Power Supply Board Kit DIY | eBay


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Dang... You guys are on it. I've thought about researching how to do this properly. I don't really want my own DIY amp in my car though ?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Please ask in complete sentences. I don`t want to guess what power supply you talking about.
> 
> Power supply is most important part of any amplifier, Car amplifiers use switchers to make dual rail -+50-100V out or single rail 12V.
> 
> they could be regulated or unregulated. When you see amplifier making same power at any load that would be regulated power supply, unregulated could be making -+60 V at 12V and 76V at 13.8 and -+80V at 14.4. consequent amplifier section increase output proportionally. D class amplifiers is very close theoretically to switching power supplies but operates at much higher frequency. best production amps JL audio does switching at 650KHz while power supply switching at 30KHz. I have a circuit that is switching at 1.2GHz but using it with 45KhZ power supply.


I might just keep my JL audio for now 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I800C0LLECT said:


> I might just keep my JL audio for now
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Come on it`s easy..... once you burned thousand LB worth of parts, electrocuted yourself few hundred times and almost set lab on fire if not for fire extinguisher.... After all it is diy site..


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Lol... It's so tempting 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

ca90ss said:


> 500W DC12V to DC±45V Switching Boost Power Supply Board Kit DIY | eBay


That one should work just fine if your amp circuit required -+45V rail voltage.

too low for big power amplifier. 75-80 is more like it. 42+15=$57 for 500W power supply without remote turn on circuitry. and it`s just 500W.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I800C0LLECT said:


> Lol... It's so tempting
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


 I was thinking to make a kit for people of this site but scrapped that idea later.


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Probably too much trouble... I'm more of a hack anyways. My wife would kill me if I burned down the house

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I800C0LLECT said:


> Probably too much trouble... I'm more of a hack anyways. My wife would kill me if I burned down the house
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


You know why? https://www.rockvilleaudio.com/rxd-m5/200W CEA2006 rated.for 215 bucks.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Marky said:


> Man you guys play rough


nope, just responding in kind. There is a reason why Porsche, Elektra, and you(as of last few pages) are not catching much crap. They feel they have a valid basis for their points of view, and are being relatively respectful. The other guy is stepping on his dick every time he hits post. its Ok to be wrong, its not ok to be an ass.


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Victor_inox said:


> That one should work just fine if your amp circuit required -+45V rail voltage.
> 
> too low for big power amplifier. 75-80 is more like it. 42+15=$57 for 500W power supply without remote turn on circuitry. and it`s just 500W.


That was just what I found with a quick search, I didn't look for the lowest price. The amp you posted accepts up to +/-48v so it would work fine for that one. There are plenty of others, this one does +/-80v with 14v input.
Type A1: 1200W DC12V to DC±68V Switching boost Power Supply board (new version)


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

ca90ss said:


> That was just what I found with a quick search, I didn't look for the lowest price. The amp you posted accepts up to +/-48v so it would work fine for that one. There are plenty of others, this one does +/-80v with 14v input.
> Type A1: 1200W DC12V to DC±68V Switching boost Power Supply board (new version)


 THey are not regulated, -+45V at 12 V input. close to -+55 at engine running. that 1200 one is better but if price is only concern look at that rockville audio I posted and then calculate how much would you need to spend to match specs even is they post half the truth.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

12V DC Switching Power Supply - 500 Watt - Car Audio: Class D Audio


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

thehatedguy said:


> 12V DC Switching Power Supply - 500 Watt - Car Audio: Class D Audio


THis one is much nicer indeed.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> That analogy is not completely correct.
> 
> Amplifier suppose to take signal and increase voltage and current ability
> , this is it, fancy filters extra.
> ...


Cut it out, I thought I was pretty clear that I don't know what makes those damn thing work. I didn't state that any amp sounded better then another.
Damn this is nothing but a slug fest for some of you guys. This thread has gone way beyond pointless.

As far as the cars went they even handled different. Was a bit strange to me but not everything is always equal. They were cool little cars, Honda 2 door Civics and only came in red or black. Honda called the Sport 1500's lol. But they were nice little cars A/C and all, the Prius of their day I suppose.

Sock it to em Gentlemen.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> 12V DC Switching Power Supply - 500 Watt - Car Audio: Class D Audio


Now I am getting a kick out of that. Looks like they are even called power supplies instead of amplifiers.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

bassfreak85 said:


> you don't have a clue. You dont want te rooms acoustics..


All studio recordings have room acoustics, you're the truly clueless one.:laugh: [edit] forgot to mention, most musicians want the room to have a T60 decay of about 1-2 seconds, don't worry there are plenty of reflections going on.[/edit]



bassfreak85 said:


> 3 band? Lol
> Your an idiot.


Ok maybe 4 band, Crutchfield has different information on two different pages. The point is, you claimed that a system should play 20-20khz flat to allow the music to be played the way it was recorded, or something like that. Your logic is fundamentally flawed, but we'll save that for next time you bring up 20-20khz flat. For now, lets just assume that setting things flat floats your boat and lets you hear the real recording. So fake mensa genius, please explain how would you get the average untreated response in a car, balanced for L&R and get the system flat with 4 mono PEQ's? You're the idiot.:laugh:


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Marky said:


> Now I am getting a kick out of that. Looks like they are even called power supplies instead of amplifiers.


No, you looking at just power supply for an amplifier.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> every artist records and masters music differently.
> If you want the most realistic natural sound its the best option.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anechoic_chamber


Yeah. Screw Abbey Road


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DC/Hertz said:


> Yeah. Screw Abbey Road


Seriously funny ****.


I played guitar seating on the toilet in my teens, sounded freaking awesome!


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

I have this Sony high resolution amp and it's not high end. Sounds fantastic!


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

benny z said:


> I have this Sony high resolution amp and it's not high end. Sounds fantastic!


These and big Red were fantastic amps.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I've entered a two front battle. This and now I'm hearing amps in the 90s have better efficiency then amps made today. 
One battle is a guy that has no idea what he's talking about 
The other battle is a guy that won't get out of the 90s. Who also thinks linear power amps sound the best.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I just got a great deal on a bnib xdi1200.6. I think it's worth what I paid but no way in hell it's worth the $859 retail price. No way it can sound good though because it isn't an old current hog


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm looking at amp swaps. The XDi is on the list. It won't take much to make them fit. 
But for a few bucks more I can get the replacement to my 4 channel. Same chassis with 90 more watts a channel. 
Also the PG Ti2


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

DC/Hertz said:


> I'm looking at amp swaps. The XDi is on the list. It won't take much to make them fit.
> But for a few bucks more I can get the replacement to my 4 channel. Same chassis with 90 more watts a channel.
> Also the PG Ti2


I told the guy I bought it from that once he got one of the badass mmatts 6ch amps on here on the line I'd send him money for the xdi. He helped me get the amp I wanted and I helped him get the amp he wanted. Should do great on tweets, mids, and rears. Keeping the current sub amp in place because it just won't make sense to run the sub off the 1200.6 and then spend money for a little 2ch for rears.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I think I just got talked into the Diamond HX amps. The 5 channel looks good but the mono and 4 looks really good. Waiting on pricing now.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> every artist records and masters music differently.
> If you want the most realistic natural sound its the best option.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anechoic_chamber


The following meme was prepared prior to seeing the post below. 



DC/Hertz said:


> Yeah. Screw Abbey Road


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

I do have a question for you amp guys:

Why are the Damping levels so much lower in the more modern amps ?

Now I see pretty high levels in some of the more expensive ones but the average damping is way below 1,000 most of the time. 

I've read some articles some time ago now about how the amplifiers were much lower in Distortion then they needed to be. I forget the distortion % they stated that can be heard by the average human ear. But most amps today are in the 0.8 or 1.0% distortion value. At least the ones in my budget range lol.

There's no doubt that electronics have improved over the years as well as capacitors.
Not a lot of companies today shooting for the moon as far as top quality goes. A few come to mind but I think the list is pretty short.
Masconi
Brax
Sinfoni
Helix

Maybe Tru-Technology 

Lot of European stuff there.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Marky said:


> I do have a question for you amp guys:
> 
> Why are the Damping levels so much lower in the more modern amps ?
> 
> ...


Humans can't hear 5% THD much less <1%. 
Damping factor is barely measurable until single digits. The speakers play a much larger role

Butler Audio


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Btw most of the Euro brands have stupid high mark up over here. They are not as expensive over there. The quality of a product comes from QC not brand name. My Korean made DD amps are just as solid as any high dollar amp I've ever had, they are not cheap but not high end.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> I've entered a two front battle. This and now I'm hearing amps in the 90s have better efficiency then amps made today.
> One battle is a guy that has no idea what he's talking about
> The other battle is a guy that won't get out of the 90s. Who also thinks linear power amps sound the best.


ill be in stock. just need to seal off the doors.  hopefully i won't be working i dob't it though.. i just put in the ceramics. oh yea


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> Humans can't hear 5% THD much less <1%.
> Damping factor is barely measurable until single digits. The speakers play a much larger role
> 
> Butler Audio


thats not even a DECENT article. and yes well trained ears can hear 1-2%.
seriously do some research..

damping FACTOR is simply the output impedance VS circuit reactance/impedance 
you need to understand how back EMF and impedance shifts as inductance etc affects an amp..


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Do research? Lol how about listening for yourself. 
You are not a special super human. You can't hear it


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I can't believe this idiot discreded a DF article by butler tube amps just because he is to stubborn to get it.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> I can't believe this idiot discreded a DF article by butler tube amps just because he is to stubborn to get it.


what is dampening factor? what else contributes to signal degradation beside the measurement of the impedance of the outputs vs the loudspeakers?
the amps acts like a "drain" for the reactance and induction but what else disperses that signal?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

The Sound of the Machine

READ ****ER


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Blog - How Much Distortion Can We Hear With Music? | Axiom Audio


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> Blog - How Much Distortion Can We Hear With Music? | Axiom Audio


Said company that sells electronics. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Why do I get the feeling that bassfreak85 is Billy's (DC/Hertz) alter ego?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

sqnut said:


> Why do I get the feeling that bassfreak85 is Billy's (DC Hetrz) alter ego?


no way. he can't even fuse a ****ing wire!
this ass clown i show him research article and research article and im the wrong whos wrong.

what class are you in? ill e in stock i think. just a pioneer AVH-x4800 and a 4 channel and 2 channel..


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

So we gonna get Mr Mensa all riled up again tonight?


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

sqnut said:


> Why do I get the feeling that bassfreak85 is Billy's (DC/Hertz) alter ego?


That's a dick move even by your standards.


----------



## bassfreek85 (Apr 19, 2017)

truckerfte said:


> So we gonna get Mr Mensa all riled up again tonight?


you not smart enough to insult me so must be complimnt


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> no way. he can't even fuse a ****ing wire!
> this ass clown i show him research article and research article and im the wrong whos wrong.
> 
> what class are you in? ill e in stock i think. just a pioneer AVH-x4800 and a 4 channel and 2 channel..


So you don't even know how classes work.. 
I bet you have a amazing stable sound stage with that head unit.


----------



## bassfreek85 (Apr 19, 2017)

DC/Hertz said:


> So you don't even know how classes work..
> I bet you have a amazing stable sound stage with that head unit.


I can read. enter against me and find out who stabel


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

What do you use to create this amazing sound stage? I'm guessing you use the amps crossovers for active... how do you balance the left and right channels with a few bands of graphic mono EQ? 
Please wise one teach me the ways of the master.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> That's a dick move even by your standards.


It's a joke snowflake, in case you missed the smiley


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

God I'm slow. You are the freaking man. Troll level 1 million.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

sqnut said:


> It's a joke snowflake, in case you missed the smiley


Yeah it gave me a reason to call you a dick lol.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> Yeah it gave me a reason to call you a dick lol.


You certainly have some strange friends, btw when is your other friend, the one stuck in the 90's going to grace us with his presence?


----------



## bassfreek85 (Apr 19, 2017)

DC/Hertz said:


> What do you use to create this amazing sound stage? I'm guessing you use the amps crossovers for active... how do you balance the left and right channels with a few bands of graphic mono EQ?
> Please wise one teach me the ways of the master.


custom passive netweork with litz ans mylar topnotch

don't need all that eq id you had good enough amps


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

bassfreek85 said:


> custom passive netweork with litz ans mylar topnotch
> 
> don't need all that eq id you had good enough amps


Oh ****.....Gonna be another long night....


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

bassfreek85 said:


> custom passive netweork with litz ans mylar topnotch
> 
> don't need all that eq id you had good enough amps


You're well and truly beyond stupid.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> Oh ****.....Gonna be another long night....


It's early morning here, I'm up for some fun!!


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> So you don't even know how classes work..
> I bet you have a amazing stable sound stage with that head unit.


meca isn't what i'm used to competing in. i read the rule book.

we will find out soon enough..


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

DC/Hertz said:


> Btw most of the Euro brands have stupid high mark up over here. They are not as expensive over there. The quality of a product comes from QC not brand name. My Korean made DD amps are just as solid as any high dollar amp I've ever had, they are not cheap but not high end.


Inexpensive. At least decent quality without costing an arm and 6 legs.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

sqnut said:


> You're well and truly beyond stupid.


you realize that isn't me right?

damnit this is going to be FUN..


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

bassfreak85 said:


> meca isn't what i'm used to competing in. i read the rule book.
> 
> we will find out soon enough..


If you get a ****ty score will that mean that your car sounds like crap? Or will it mean, that the judges are biased and too dumb to know good sound?


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

I'm just trying to figure out what the hell you guys are trying to say with all the miss spelled and wrong words here there and everywhere.

Who is the 90's guy......? How can you be mad at a guy like that......I liked the 90's myself lol Was sure younger

Been a long time fan of: "Keep it Simple Stupid"


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> What do you use to create this amazing sound stage? I'm guessing you use the amps crossovers for active... how do you balance the left and right channels with a few bands of graphic mono EQ?
> Please wise one teach me the ways of the master.


the head unit has built in active network.

tweeter xover points are 1.25/2.5/3.15/4/5/6.5/8/10/12kz same for the mid up to 10 and the HPF 50 up to 250 i think never tried past 160..

The mid is BPed 80 to 3.15 tweeter is at 3.15 24DB slopes sub is @ 80 36bd octave slope(63 works fine most times)

i have T/A for the midranges. tweeters, and woofers independently of course.

kinda ****ty 13 band EQ and its singular to the outputs so that where i'm missing out. That and a phase adjustment. its not a high-end unit but its decent enough.
its far from a highend processor but good enough to have a defined, wide sound stage with enough depth.


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Marky said:


> Been a long time fan of: "Keep it Simple Stupid"


Wait....You have how many Macs going into your build? Lol


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

sqnut said:


> If you get a ****ty score will that mean that your car sounds like crap? Or will it mean, that the judges are biased and too dumb to know good sound?


granted i never competed if i place that a win. honestly i'm pretty sure it will score fine. i really need to get that turn on pop out. 

i put a cheap rta on it to help alittle. trust me its far from ****ting sounding.


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

truckerfte said:


> Wait....You have how many Macs going into your build? Lol


LOL Well I really don't see the # of amps as complex. What's spun my top is the DSP business. I have only used electronic crossovers, those I can handle. Me and computers just don't mix well.
I am running the amps in one frequency range only. 

Bass amps
Midrange amps
Highs amps

Simple


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Marky said:


> LOL Well I really don't see the # of amps as complex. What's spun my top is the DSP business. I have only used electronic crossovers, those I can handle. Me and computers just don't mix well.
> I am running the amps in one frequency range only.
> 
> Bass amps
> ...


I'm still getting my head wrapped around it. It's a lot easier for me to plug in than climbing into the trunk to turn dials. 

I still wish for a solution that will work with Android over Bluetooth....


Or, I could just buy one of those sleakers that play flat 10-40k Hz....


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I can hear 3% pretty easy on music and 1% on pure tones.


----------



## bassfreek85 (Apr 19, 2017)

sqnut said:


> If you get a ****ty score will that mean that your car sounds like crap? Or will it mean, that the judges are biased and too dumb to know good sound?





thehatedguy said:


> I can hear 3% pretty easy on music and 1% on pure tones.


finally some body with ears. was starting to thing everone on here was deaf


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Autosound 2000 test disk had songs and tones recorded with different levels of distortion. I'm sure with some trained ears and a higher resolution system, you could hear 2% on music...I didn't have either when I did the listening in 2000/

And damping factors over 100 aren't really beneficial. Class d tend to have lower df due to the inductors on the outputs.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

bassfreek85 said:


> finally some body with ears. was starting to thing everone on here was deaf


you're smart. you ma ma ma make me happy..


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

truckerfte said:


> I'm still getting my head wrapped around it. It's a lot easier for me to plug in than climbing into the trunk to turn dials.
> 
> I still wish for a solution that will work with Android over Bluetooth....
> 
> ...


I thought Helix has a blue-tooth gizmo that goes directly into the DSP.......?

As far as the DSP goes I have seen some videos on setting it up and I went into major information overload. I have been very concerned or overwhelmed with the thing. Enough to really taking the steam out of the install. There is a guy that is on the forum here that lives 45 minutes away. He said he will set it up and school me on the thing.
Going to be a longer day then he thinks LOL

I have also seen so many updates on that DSP too. I cant even set up my fricken iPhone right now so yea I'm not messing with that thing.

But I know there is a blue tooth gadget for those. Unless your trying something else.
I bought a little Windows 10" laptop for my truck. Ran a USB from my console straight to the DSP. So that should help on setup.


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

Marky said:


> I thought Helix has a blue-tooth gizmo that goes directly into the DSP.......?
> 
> As far as the DSP goes I have seen some videos on setting it up and I went into major information overload. I have been very concerned or overwhelmed with the thing. Enough to really taking the steam out of the install. There is a guy that is on the forum here that lives 45 minutes away. He said he will set it up and school me on the thing.
> Going to be a longer day then he thinks LOL
> ...


Pretty sure the bt module is for audio in not tuning. 

Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


----------



## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Marky said:


> I thought Helix has a blue-tooth gizmo that goes directly into the DSP.......?
> 
> As far as the DSP goes I have seen some videos on setting it up and I went into major information overload. I have been very concerned or overwhelmed with the thing. Enough to really taking the steam out of the install. There is a guy that is on the forum here that lives 45 minutes away. He said he will set it up and school me on the thing.
> Going to be a longer day then he thinks LOL
> ...


I ended up buying a cheap laptop to dedicate to the car. Unfortunately my shoulder isnt up to waving a mic around for a couple more weeks. That was the plan, anyway. Yesterday the neighbor backed into the car, and looks like its gonna be a total loss. I feel bad, he nailed his old ladys car a couple of weeks ago, and went down on his bike this morning....afraid it might be time for him to re think driving.


----------



## el_bob-o (Nov 8, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> I can hear 3% pretty easy on music and 1% on pure tones.


In the Axiom blog post that was linked they are referencing tests in which listeners could not hear 1% distortion on tones until 8khz and with frequencies below that the listeners became less sensitive to distortion. Does that correlate to your listening tests?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

el_bob-o said:


> In the Axiom blog post that was linked they are referencing tests in which listeners could not hear 1% distortion on tones until 8khz and with frequencies below that the listeners became less sensitive to distortion. Does that correlate to your listening tests?


Now, Question is were they hearing THD or IMD? If it was THD how was it introduced into tge system?
IMD is much more prominent in music anyways


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

truckerfte said:


> I ended up buying a cheap laptop to dedicate to the car. Unfortunately my shoulder isnt up to waving a mic around for a couple more weeks. That was the plan, anyway. Yesterday the neighbor backed into the car, and looks like its gonna be a total loss. I feel bad, he nailed his old ladys car a couple of weeks ago, and went down on his bike this morning....afraid it might be time for him to re think driving.


So why does nobody run the alpine unit?


----------



## el_bob-o (Nov 8, 2008)

I run the H701 and will likely buy the newer H800 for a build for my wife that's going to be happening later this year. The 701 works well for me but it is a pain in the arse to tune it through the display. I look forward to being able to use a laptop with the H800.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

el_bob-o said:


> I run the H701 and will likely buy the newer H800 for a build for my wife that's going to be happening later this year. The 701 works well for me but it is a pain in the arse to tune it through the display. I look forward to being able to use a laptop with the H800.


honestly
Im a tweeker. I want it FOR the display. To bad no processor can use bluetooth via phone in real time.


----------



## el_bob-o (Nov 8, 2008)

I will still install the display for the H800, I just want to do my initial tune on a laptop.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

el_bob-o said:


> I will still install the display for the H800, I just want to do my initial tune on a laptop.


 understood. Exactly what ill do. Just wa t 4 ot 5 presets i can switch between and if need to modify its quick and convenient.


----------



## el_bob-o (Nov 8, 2008)

bassfreak85 said:


> Now, Question is were they hearing THD or IMD? If it was THD how was it introduced into tge system?
> IMD is much more prominent in music anyways


He didn't really go into it that much in the link you posted. At the end of the article it says:

_ "Next episode: The effects of harmonic distortion 
The tests done in this experiment are essentially noise tests; things such as mechanical resonances and port noises that are not harmonically related to a specific fundamental contained in the music would be examples of noise distortion. Other types of distortion such as Harmonic Distortion and Intermodulation Distortion have a direct relationship to a frequency being reproduced as part of the music. These types of distortion may be harder to detect than straight noise distortion; a subject for a future round of experiments."_

I wasn't able to find the subsequent blog posts but I am still looking to see if I can find them.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

sqnut said:


> You certainly have some strange friends, btw when is your other friend, the one stuck in the 90's going to grace us with his presence?


I doubt he would come here. He's a good guy but just won't get past the fact mobile audio has gotten better even though it's not all made in the US now.


----------



## el_bob-o (Nov 8, 2008)

That 90's nostalgia hits me pretty hard sometimes and clouds my better judgement when choosing gear. Often times I will order an older amplifier only to test it and find out it has one or more issues or flat out doesn't work. When I think about it logically I would be better off buying new rather than buying something older and then paying to have it fixed.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> I doubt he would come here. He's a good guy but just won't get past the fact mobile audio has gotten better even though it's not all made in the US now.


You mean he is just slightly opinionated, not ignorant and obnoxious like this one.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Here's a question for golden ear aka Bassfreak85
Any audiophile can easily answer this. 

What do you listen for that's attached to a bass drum in a good recording?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> Here's a question for golden ear aka Bassfreak85
> Any audiophile can easily answer this.
> 
> What do you listen for that's attached to a bass drum in a good recording?


Be more specific. Thats to general. The mallet has a unique sound and attack/delay. If your going to ask a techinical question you have to be specific


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

It's a term. Only a good setup will show it. It will be located on the stage in the same position as the drum. 
It's one of the upper harmonics of the bass that anchores the sub up front.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

You have fundme tal frequencies and overtones.is that what your getting at? If not i don't know..


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Peddle strike. You hear the mallet hit the drum. Where ever that sound is coming from on the dash/hood the bass will also come from there. 
That's one of the first things I learnt when I started tuning. Delay won't make it happen. Blending the bass into the mid bass will. Most of us do not delay the sub.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> Peddle strike. You hear the mallet hit the drum. Where ever that sound is coming from on the dash/hood the bass will also come from there.
> That's one of the first things I learnt when I started tuning. Delay won't make it happen. Blending the bass into the mid bass will. Most of us do not delay the sub.


The sub isn't delayed. Im talking about the attack/decay of the signal..

We can discuss this all day. The sound is all that matters.

You see, you say ahhh.


----------



## OnYrMrk (Apr 20, 2009)

I can't help but think that the OP is actually Peter Euro back from the DIYMA dead.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

OnYrMrk said:


> I can't help but think that the OP is actually Peter Euro back from the DIYMA dead.


I been on the forums since around 05.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> The sub isn't delayed. Im talking about the attack/decay of the signal..
> 
> We can discuss this all day. The sound is all that matters.
> 
> You see, you say ahhh.


It's got nothing to do with attack and delay. Do you hear the strike and bass on the stage where it supposed to be. Is the strike and bass coming from a small square somewhere on the hood. 

I'm sure it's something you don't understand because you don't even have enough tuning power to make it happen.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> I been on the forums since around 05.


12 years and still trolling, dude you unsinkable. :laugh:


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

While it is very important to get the right response in the transition from sub to mid bass, imho it is equally important to get the timing right between the sub and mid bass. The drum is anchored upfront based on the harmonics of the 50-60hz thud, frequencies at which we can tell the difference between front and back ~100hz and up. Not so much by the click of the pedal which is processed by the brain as a separate sound. When these harmonics of the drum are played by the mid bass drivers upfront, the brain places the thud (where we cant tell front/back) at the same location as the harmonics. The snap in the kick drum comes from the harmonics that lie further up in the mid range ~500+. Which is why getting the right response from 50-800 is so critical to get a good low end.

Getting the response and timing right, gives the drum focus and makes the drum sound dynamic. This is because on the recording, there is a certain natural delay between the fundamental and the snappy harmonics. Now, if the sub is playing the fundamental and the woofer is playing the harmonics, and the two are out of time, one will lose a ton of dynamics a the tight focus.


----------



## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> HOTT_SINCE_81 said:
> 
> 
> > Just did a system in my chicks 4Runner and used a a Rockford PBR300X2 to power a set of Focal KRX2's for the front stage. Sounded OK but not the way I remember them sounding when I had them in my car.
> ...


I think he was only trying to point out the A/B testing of the two amps in his partners car, with no other changes


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> 12 years and still trolling, dude you unsinkable. :laugh:


call me Mroll for MASTER TROLL.
not my fault you can't understand feedback is a good thing..


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Kazuhiro said:


> I think he was only trying to point out the A/B testing of the two amps in his partners car, with no other changes




Correct that's way I read it...

This is not an isolated case - I can't tell you how many times I have heard for SQ competitors that just swoping amps out and nothing else changed the character of there cars - especially guys going to Audison from one example Focal Solid 4 amps and not fancy Audison amps SRX series... 

It seems guys here refuse to believe amps make a difference - they so consumed by the notion that only tuning makes a difference they can't entertain the idea that other factors also influence the way the car sounds...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## el_bob-o (Nov 8, 2008)

I can only speak for myself here but I would be willing to accept that I am wrong and change my view if evidence leaned against my preconceived notions. In my experience and in all of the tests that I have read it seems that amplifiers of the same power sound the same barring clipping, outlying awful performance, or intentional manipulation of the sound. 

The vast majorities of the tests I have read about were typically not true scientific tests and not performed with a large enough group of participants. I am assuming the reason for that all boils down to the goals of the tests. Very few amplifier manufacturers only sell a single line and usually you have a progression of amps that are supposed to be better and better as you spend more to buy a companies higher end lines. So even though it would behoove someone like Precision Power to perform these tests for the sake of competing with someone like Brax (Imagine how many they would sell if it was actually proven scientifically and definitively that their lowest line competed favorable against any Brax amplifier up to a certain power point) it would cannibalize all of their more expensive offerings. They make money selling inexpensive amplifiers by the boatload and having tons of options, while on the flip side boutique brands and higher end brands accept that they will sell fewer of their more expensive offerings. Since people typically assume you are paying for better sound and if that is one's goal then they will spend the cash for the better offerings based on marketing and competition results (which are often times one and the same) there is no reason for the more expensive companies to spend the money and time to perform these tests. If the test goes the wrong way then they only hurt themselves, if the tests proves that they do sound better then nobody is surprised because of the assumption that _it costs more, it must be better_ makes proving it a moot point. 

In summation: Based on the tests I have read about and my limited and admittedly untrained evaluations it seems that amplifiers sound indistinguishably similar with similar power unless stressed or faulty. Conversely if testing came out to prove what I've understood up to this point to be fallacy then my mind would change of course. Anecdotal evidence will do nothing to change my mind or, I assume, the minds of most people that take a similar stance on this forum.


----------



## el_bob-o (Nov 8, 2008)

While this discussion seemed to be down from the get go, I do appreciate this topic. It seems that it always prompts me to see different studies or look deeper into distortion. At the very least it lets me mentally compile anecdotal evidence and consider it compared to what I have learned in the past. I am often wrong and am always happy to eventually be convinced and corrected.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

el_bob-o said:


> I can only speak for myself here but I would be willing to accept that I am wrong and change my view if evidence leaned against my preconceived notions. In my experience and in all of the tests that I have read it seems that amplifiers of the same power sound the same barring clipping, outlying awful performance, or intentional manipulation of the sound.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




An amp level matched to another will have the same output - if they have a similar design and use the same audio caps they will sound the same barring other influences like capacitance storage etc which will benefit the low end and possible the high end of the amp

I would say 90% of the amps use similar audio caps - aka Elna Sim 2 and same Opamps 

Those amps will most probably sound the same the only difference would be power handling 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Most importantly almost all using similar front stage opamps, have you tried Burson audio discrete yet?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Elektra said:


> An amp level matched to another will have the same output - if they have a similar design and use the same audio caps they will sound the same barring other influences like capacitance storage etc which will benefit the low end and possible the high end of the amp
> 
> I would say 90% of the amps use similar audio caps - aka Elna Sim 2 and same Opamps
> 
> ...


I find amps that use feedback have a different response.
They seem to be more controled but they can suffer from the high damping in some cases esp on the very top and bottom of the. Fr. Thats why you see high df amps designed to have a much wider bandwith. Arc signature series is a good example.


----------



## el_bob-o (Nov 8, 2008)

I read about amps having more control or sounding better on the bottom end of the frequency spectrum but just about everything I've read about distortion states that we typically don't notice distortion at low frequencies.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Most importantly almost all using similar front stage opamps, have you tried Burson audio discrete yet?




No - but you did didn't you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> No - but you did didn't you?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Sure did and like it very much.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Sure did and like it very much.




Worth the trouble and cost? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Worth the trouble and cost?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My cost was free, $130 a pair it`s for you to decide. 
I can make my own for half that. maybe not as pretty but they hide inside anyway.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> My cost was free, $130 a pair it`s for you to decide.
> 
> I can make my own for half that. maybe not as pretty but they hide inside anyway.




Maybe an exercise on a amp that is easy to mod and not that expensive - just in case it gets screwed up by the technician


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Maybe an exercise on a amp that is easy to mod and not that expensive - just in case it gets screwed up by the technician
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Unless you insert in dip8 socket backwards there is nothing to screw up. 

If you can wire your own amplifiers you can do it.


----------



## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

I can tell you from my own practical experience that I tried all four of these amps in the same car / same system and did not hear any discernible differences. Eventually, I went with the T03 because it had the most power... It's all about head room in my humble opinion.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

IMHO Tube drive does nothing but discredit idea of tube front stage in car amplifiers.
That is nicest way i can put it. 

It`s nice looking amplifier but blue led lighting under tubes is surely cheesy as ****.
Out of all 3 I`d also chose Tru. most power and easily upgradable opamps.


----------



## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

I agree, the Tube Blue sounded no different than any other amp. I would like to have another Original Butler though. It might have had a warmer feel to it, but that was too long ago to really remember.


----------



## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

BMWTUBED said:


> I agree, the Tube Blue sounded no different than any other amp. I would like to have another Original Butler though. It might have had a warmer feel to it, but that was too long ago to really remember.


Now I'm using JL XD and couldn't be happier. Why pay more for no discernible difference?? It just doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

BMWTUBED said:


> I agree, the Tube Blue sounded no different than any other amp. I would like to have another Original Butler though. It might have had a warmer feel to it, but that was too long ago to really remember.


 Tubes in first generation wired as diodes and do NOTHING to the sound.
When they burned there were no sound on outs, in following generation is was bypassed so burned tubes didn`t kill amplifier output but they still do nothing for sound.
Many people called it fake tube amplifiers.


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I want to try the XDs but I'd need a few of them to get the power I have now. Not very cost effective.


----------



## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

DC/Hertz said:


> I want to try the XDs but I'd need a few of them to get the power I have now. Not very cost effective.


Yea, I wouldn't waste your time and money. They're going to sound exactly like what you have now I'm sure. I won't be changing until my BitOne craps out and then I'll get an amp with built in DSP. That would be the only thing that would get me to change.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Tubes in first generation wired as diodes and do NOTHING to the sound.
> 
> When they burned there were no sound on outs, in following generation is was bypassed so burned tubes didn`t kill amplifier output but they still do nothing for sound.
> 
> Many people called it fake tube amplifiers.




When I had my EOS tube amps - I can tell you it did make a big difference - I remember I had to replace the tubes and the technician who was doing the job damaged one of the new tubes he was supposed to change 

So in his wisdom he put a RCA tube on the left channel and a Silvania tube on the right channel (can't remember the exact names of the tubes) 

I remember going there and he was saying it should not make any difference - I was a bit sceptical so I asked him to play the amp - and sure enough you can hear a difference between left and right 

Even the technician was a bit surprised so he changed the one tube to match the other 

I sold the amps because I realized there are no qualified people here to deal with tubes as these amps had to solder the tubes to the boards which was a specialized job 

And I wasn't going to pay €50 a tube every time and then have to send the amp to Russia to have them changed 

Otherwise I thought those amps where great - def better than the TRU c7.4T amp I had as well at the time. But those had Tube holders which would have made life easier to change the tubes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Soldering tubed instead of sockets is ****ed up way to convince customers to return for service. 
Id install socketsin those and then tube rolling would be a cat walk. 
Perhaps you need to get one or few of my preamps so any of your amps would sound like tube. And since i only use socketed tubes no soldering would be required.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Soldering tubed instead of sockets is ****ed up way to convince customers to return for service.
> Id install socketsin those and then tube rolling would be a cat walk.
> Perhaps you need to get one or few of my preamps so any of your amps would sound like tube. And since i only use socketed tubes no soldering would be required.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk




It was a pain - and realizing that nobody here sells those type of tubes meant that I had to order from overseas and then there was a huge choice ranging from $10 to $700 each - just too much decisions 

I thought about putting tube holders but again a pain as I had to order from eBay and then get new tubes because it was a certainty that they will get damaged in the soldering process 

Just too much hassle 

How does your tube preamp work? Is there a website to see them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> It was a pain - and realizing that nobody here sells those type of tubes meant that I had to order from overseas and then there was a huge choice ranging from $10 to $700 each - just too much decisions
> 
> I thought about putting tube holders but again a pain as I had to order from eBay and then get new tubes because it was a certainty that they will get damaged in the soldering process
> 
> ...



more trouble you going through better it sounds,isn`t it?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/164752-victory-sonics-tube-preamps.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...161717-tube-preamps-mobile-installations.html

THere is plenty reviews on this very site as well.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

BMWTUBED said:


> I can tell you from my own practical experience that I tried all four of these amps in the same car / same system and did not hear any discernible differences. Eventually, I went with the T03 because it had the most power... It's all about head room in my humble opinion.


Let me get the helix


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

BMWTUBED said:


> Now I'm using JL XD and couldn't be happier. Why pay more for no discernible difference?? It just doesn't make sense to me.


What you have?


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

sqnut said:


> While it is very important to get the right response in the transition from sub to mid bass, imho it is equally important to get the timing right between the sub and mid bass. The drum is anchored upfront based on the harmonics of the 50-60hz thud, frequencies at which we can tell the difference between front and back ~100hz and up. Not so much by the click of the pedal which is processed by the brain as a separate sound. When these harmonics of the drum are played by the mid bass drivers upfront, the brain places the thud (where we cant tell front/back) at the same location as the harmonics. The snap in the kick drum comes from the harmonics that lie further up in the mid range ~500+. Which is why getting the right response from 50-800 is so critical to get a good low end.
> 
> Getting the response and timing right, gives the drum focus and makes the drum sound dynamic. This is because on the recording, there is a certain natural delay between the fundamental and the snappy harmonics. Now, if the sub is playing the fundamental and the woofer is playing the harmonics, and the two are out of time, one will lose a ton of dynamics a the tight focus.


Its called fundemental and overtone and having correct phase between the two drivers is what helps illudes the brain to think its up front level matching is also very important a boosted sub stage will destroy it.
. The overtone is important because it IS directional while most larger drums fundement tone aren't directional.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

DC/Hertz said:


> I want to try the XDs but I'd need a few of them to get the power I have now. Not very cost effective.


ZAPCO baby..or helix.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

bassfreak85 said:


> Its called fundemental and overtone and having correct phase between the two drivers is what helps illudes the brain to think its up front level matching is also very important a boosted sub stage will destroy it.
> . The overtone is important because it IS directional while most larger drums fundement tone aren't directional.


Yes genius that's exactly what I said, except you need to match the fundamental and harmonics in the time and response domain. Phase coherence in a car is an oxymoron.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

sqnut said:


> Yes genius that's exactly what I said, except you need to match the fundamental and harmonics in the time and response domain. Phase coherence in a car is an oxymoron.


So why did you use 120 words instead of 35? Oh and you missed flat FR between the two which is equally as important


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> more trouble you going through better it sounds,isn`t it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sometimes you just need to know when to throw the towel in....

I'll check them out...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

sqnut said:


> You're even more ignorant, dumb, clueless and obnoxious than your buddy Trump.


Lets bet on it. Ill do a real live test with my system. Ill match output level between the mid and woofer then ill boost the woofer.
Ill bet my left nut the subs output destroys the image and becomes directional


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Plus i bet if sq nut matted his car to stop reflection his "smering" wouldnt be an issue. If in fact that is the term and im understanding it. Lol


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> You are quintessential failure of public education.and luck of proper parenting.


You are clueless.
Im working on getting my results.
My parents are fine people. Anyone can tell you tgey are
I on the other hand dont like many people because i understand human nature.
That being said im always looking to learn. If i dont understand something i research it or test it.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bassfreak85 said:


> You are clueless.
> Im working on getting my results.
> My parents are fine people. Anyone can tell you tgey are
> I on the other hand dont like many people because i understand human nature.
> That being said im always looking to learn. If i dont understand something i research it or test it.


Here is a clue for you. Do something about that terrible spelling errors you make in every single ****ing post. 
See that meme I posted and please STFU already.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Here is a clue for you. Do something about that terrible spelling errors you make in every single ****ing post.
> See that meme I posted and please STFU already.


Dont worry about my spelling. I started this thread don't like it don't come into it.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

```

```



bassfreak85 said:


> Dont worry about my spelling. I started this thread don't like it don't come into it.


People don`t take you seriously, if you fine with it I definitely don`t give a ****.


----------



## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> People don`t take you seriously, if you fine with it I definitely don`t give a ****.


No people don't you are right. Kmsl


----------



## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

bassfreak85 said:


> ZAPCO baby..or helix.


Why?


----------



## hdrugs (Sep 7, 2009)

so many pages i'll get into it by responding to the topic 

yes amps do make sonic signature/harmonical differences i would like both sides to respect each other.


i a chef by trade and have noticed some people can eat alot of chilli or a little or cant eat licorice at all


i change gear often.

i keep dispersion same only switch between 3/4"tweeters and 5" midranges, and i keep frequency response very similar as i rta

between tru tech billets and jl hd amps at times push tube pre-amps through them

most of my friends don't pick up the change as well, and fewer notice significant difference

when we go out clubbing i can tell harmonics differences in song that im familiar with

in difference night club, live bands, bar/pub speakers and certain dj kits. also work as a security guard so out on weekend nights a lot. 

my friends who don't pick up harmonics aswell they enjoy music more based on lyrics ... or things that relate to nice smooth frequency response

i enjoy what they enjoy with the added i personally enjoy house, electric/acoustic guiter, flutes, pianos, saxophone alot more then my friends

when i force tube pre-amps into the jl hd nothing comes through at all no harmonics

but with boths

they are both great in frequency response
low floor noise
clean clear sound 
dynamic/power
detail

and cant fault either amp

i'm genetically about 1% of the popuation, my optometrist told me color blind i can't tell from light/dark green to brownish. but i cant tell something there's no difference between those colors and someone cant tell me, vice versa. whats true us, is actually true


i think of harmonics as two men talking they both could be around 400hz but thier different due to all the second or 3rd order harmonics in thier natural voice

different people have varying sensitivities to harmonics

hence the school of all amps sound the same as long as the eq is the same


for some people save space go class d, save, save heat, save money not much benefit gain. we shouldn't assume we're all alike that's selfish

kind regards, have a nice day


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Elektra said:


> Sometimes you just need to know when to throw the towel in....
> 
> I'll check them out...
> 
> ...


LMAO Electra No you weren't busy doing what I first figured lol

Vic I will hand it to you for being a guy that goes straight for it. I am honestly impressed that you do build this ****.

Is there more links to all your handy work? I'm a hell of a woodworker and can run a machine lathe like no one else. Hell I can fabricate steel projects that are top notch builds. But building electronic gear, amplifiers and any micro electronic stuff is a light year or two out of my reach. Good stuff .........Links Pleaze


----------



## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

hdrugs said:


> so many pages i'll get into it by responding to the topic
> 
> yes amps do make sonic signature/harmonical differences i would like both sides to respect each other.
> 
> ...


I'm with you 100% brother

I've used probably 6 or 7 different brands of amps in my car audio time. Almost every one sounded different. This thread is a pissing match more then anything else. 

You pricks are just looking for someone to thrash on. But if it makes your day go by why the hell would I care.


----------

