# CDUltras vs CD2Neos



## BloodBath (Jan 23, 2011)

Hey everyone, I was considering getting a set of the CDUltras, but recently found I can get the CD2s for $100 less. Anyone had experience with both of the sets that cares to chime in? Im leaning more towards the cheaper option unless someone has a different opinion..


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Ive used every version of compression driver that ID has offered outside of the very original CD1 and CD3ultras which were altec drivers.

the new Ultra drivers have SUPERB top end response, unlike the others which have a very audible top end roll off.
So much so that Ive had arguments with people who've heard my car about where my tweeters are crossed over . ( i have no tweeters)

the CD2neos were a definite improvement over the cd2 and cd2 mylars, but the Ultras are a leap, not just a step above them


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## BloodBath (Jan 23, 2011)

Well then I guess its settled lol.


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## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

Mic, would you say there's a tradeoff in lower end response with the Ultras compared to the CD2Neos?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

<------only uses mini horns, so no idea about lower end response.
but at 1khz they were as good or better than anything else.

granted, Ive only really heard all the ID compression drivers, so I havent heard a ton of CDs...but most had very similar sounding midrange...its been the upper midrange and treble or lack thereof that really separates them.


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## BloodBath (Jan 23, 2011)

Would you say the CD2s were lacking in the treble range? Or just that the Ultras simply sounded better?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

they start taking a massive nosedive at around 16khz
as a comparison 20khz is almost 10db below 2khz

whereas 20khz on the Ultra has a much more gradual roll off


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Mic,

Do you know who builds the Ultra drivers? What's a comparable driver to the Ultra? I know there's a possibilty you don't know the answer, but I had to ask.

The top end rolloff is a major concern of mine. Other than the Ultra's what other ID drivers had great high end extension? Have you had a chance to hear the new CDPro's? I'm very interested in these, Eric says they rolloff at the same frequency (12k) as the Ultra's, just at a steeper slope.


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## BloodBath (Jan 23, 2011)

fish said:


> Mic,
> 
> Do you know who builds the Ultra drivers? What's a comparable driver to the Ultra? I know there's a possibilty you don't know the answer, but I had to ask.
> 
> The top end rolloff is a major concern of mine. Other than the Ultra's what other ID drivers had great high end extension? Have you had a chance to hear the new CDPro's? I'm very interested in these, Eric says they rolloff at the same frequency (12k) as the Ultra's, just at a steeper slope.


I believe they use the Selenium D2500TI drivers, and the CD2's use the B&C DE500 drivers. Im nearly certain. If I can find some horn bodies cheap enough Ill go ahead and grab the Seleniums and put them on, and see how they turn out.

Interestingly the Selenium drivers cost about half as much as the B&C's.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

fish said:


> Mic,
> 
> Do you know who builds the Ultra drivers? What's a comparable driver to the Ultra? I know there's a possibilty you don't know the answer, but I had to ask.
> 
> The top end rolloff is a major concern of mine. Other than the Ultra's what other ID drivers had great high end extension? Have you had a chance to hear the new CDPro's? I'm very interested in these, Eric says they rolloff at the same frequency (12k) as the Ultra's, just at a steeper slope.


Yes I do know who makes the drivers.
No I cannot say. That just isnt right. ID is one of my sponsors.

I used the Cd1pro for many years. It was a step above the original Cd2 as far as top end response.
Nice drivers. midrange is something thinner sounding IMO, but very nice top end. I used them in a 3way front stage


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I know of other compression drivers that have a more extended topend than even the Ultras. But will not play as low (some might play as low).

My questions for you are- how low are you wanting to go on the horns?  And which is more important, the midrange tone or the extreme treble? How big of a driver can you fit? And what's your budget?


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> I know of other compression drivers that have a more extended topend than even the Ultras. But will not play as low (some might play as low).
> 
> My questions for you are- how low are you wanting to go on the horns? And which is more important, the midrange tone or the extreme treble? How big of a driver can you fit? And what's your budget?


 - I'd like to cross them @ 800hz, but more than likely 1khz. Although, the P01 has 36db/octave slopes so 800hz might be doable. 

- I don't want to give in too much to the midrange thinning out to have a much higher topend - I'm looking for the closest thing to a "total package". Midrange is more important overall.

- As far as the driver's size, I'm not exactly sure. :blush: Car is '03 Civic & will be using the CD1E minis, so something more on the compact side.

- Budget, I'd be willing to spend $350 on the drivers.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> Yes I do know who makes the drivers.
> No I cannot say. That just isnt right. ID is one of my sponsors.


That's what I meant to say.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

800 is too low for the mini horns. 1-1.25k is a better spot for those bodies.

If you want to go to a 1.5k xo point, the BMS 4540nd has response to 30k. It is TINY. You will need a threaded to bolt on adapter for it. It is more of a tweeter driver in it's "real life" design. Supposed to sound incredible. The BMS drivers are a love/hate type of driver though. Some love the modern sound, but some guys don't like it at all (home horn guys here).

With that said, the HF response of the horns are really really narrow up that high (beaming). I think if you really were concerned with those ultra high frequencies, a super tweeter would do them better and have more disspersion...providing more "air" up there. Again talking slight changes in sound, especially considering the added trouble to put a real supertweeter in the dash.

Just in my honest opinion, response to 18-20k isn't that big of a deal if you aren't doing some sort of RTA competition.

And the Ultra driver considering it's useable bandwidth, price, and size...it's hard to beat. It is a really nice driver.


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## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> ...Just in my honest opinion, response to 18-20k isn't that big of a deal if you aren't doing some sort of RTA competition...


Especially for us old guys.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Eh, what was that? Speak up sonny.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> 800 is too low for the mini horns. 1-1.25k is a better spot for those bodies.
> 
> If you want to go to a 1.5k xo point, the BMS 4540nd has response to 30k. It is TINY. You will need a threaded to bolt on adapter for it. It is more of a tweeter driver in it's "real life" design. Supposed to sound incredible. The BMS drivers are a love/hate type of driver though. Some love the modern sound, but some guys don't like it at all (home horn guys here).
> 
> ...


I'd like to not cross the horns any higher than 1k, but only experimentation will tell. I had a feeling you were going to mention those BMS drivers,  but I think 1.5k would be too high for what I'm looking to do.

A supertweeter is out of the question, trying to keep it simple.

No competetions here, what kind of information plays above 12k anyway? Which is where the Ultra & the new CDPro begin to roll off, according to Eric. If this is the main difference between these two drivers (12k rolloff) then I think it makes since to save $325 & go with the CDPros.

Winslow, can you reveal who makes the Ultra drivers? In a PM maybe?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> 800 is too low for the mini horns. 1-1.25k is a better spot for those bodies.
> 
> If you want to go to a 1.5k xo point, the BMS 4540nd has response to 30k. It is TINY. You will need a threaded to bolt on adapter for it. It is more of a tweeter driver in it's "real life" design. Supposed to sound incredible. The BMS drivers are a love/hate type of driver though. Some love the modern sound, but some guys don't like it at all (home horn guys here).
> 
> ...


Here's some compression driver pr0n.









From left to right, Vifa 3/4" tweeter (xt19), BMS 4540ND, Celestion CDX1-1425

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_wUDOCViv9D0/S1DaKo_Nv3I/AAAAAAAACe0/VxpkO3YQmds/s800/waveguideDiet4.jpg[/img]
From left to right, we have a Vifa 3/4" tweeter (xt19), a Celestion CDX1-1425 compression driver (with the phase plug removed), the BMS 4540ND that Jason mentioned, and the phase plug from the Celestion.









BMS 4540ND mounted on QSC waveguide









Another size comparison of the BMS and Vifa tweeters. Yes, the BMS is actually smaller than a conventional tweeter.









Here's the BMS mounted on a waveguide that you can buy at MCM. Pretty small huh? That's a 5" closed back midrange, Misco JC5RTF-B









Here's a comparison of a "conventional" compression driver, and a BMS.​ See how the BMS diaphragm is basically a ring of mylar? It's similar to what Vifa, ScanSpeak, and Alpine use in their ring radiators. The compression driver that I'm comparing this to is a JBL 2470. Except I replaced the "stock" phenolic (fiberglass) diaphragm with an aluminum diaphragm from Radian. This configuration gives you the best of both worlds. The excellent high-end extension of aluminum, combined with the best motor that money can buy (alnico with a silver shorting ring.)


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

fish said:


> Mic,
> 
> Do you know who builds the Ultra drivers? What's a comparable driver to the Ultra? I know there's a possibilty you don't know the answer, but I had to ask.
> 
> The top end rolloff is a major concern of mine. Other than the Ultra's what other ID drivers had great high end extension? Have you had a chance to hear the new CDPro's? I'm very interested in these, Eric says they rolloff at the same frequency (12k) as the Ultra's, just at a steeper slope.


Here's some data on various configurations. I stole this off of Brandon's site, which is a great read (Driver Measurements - drivervault)


























B&C DE250. This is a good example of a well-engineered ferrite compression driver with a 1" throat. The graph shows the polar response on a QSC horn. IMHO, this is about as big as you'd really want to go in a car, unless you want to build your own waveguide or horn. _(Which you should, because it's fun  )_

























Celestion CDX1-1425. This is what I'm using in my car right now. It needs some response shaping to get to 20khz, but you can see that it's possible to get there if you're willing to sacrifice low end efficiency. Compared to the B&C, you can see that there's no way to get past 16khz or so unless you use something like this, or go with BMS.
​
Also, check out the waterfall plots. See how much garbage there is, particularly at low frequencies? And notice how the Celestion costs half as much, but if you limit it to 2khz and up, it's waterfall plot is cleaner?

*I think this is part of the reason why the Unity concept works so well in the car.* Instead of trying to squeeze more and more bandwidth out of a big compression driver, I'm simply cramming an entire loudspeaker array onto a single horn. So we can limit our drivers to a very narrow bandwidth, and limit our speakers to where they can really shine. IE, the B&C will play lower than the Celestion, but the Celestion is cleaner above 2khz. And the Celestion in a Unity horn will walk all over the B&C alone, because the midrange drivers allow the Unity horn to go lower than the B&C could ever hope to go.


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