# kick panels and image height



## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

i am trying kick panels for midrange and tweeters and midbasses at the doors.
sound is better with much less reflections from glasses image is wider and i can here both left and right speaker much easier.the left side is 110cm from my left ear and the right side is 150cm without dsp.
the image height is not high enough.it's about the height of the headunit (upper part of the dash)and i am trying to adjust the mids and tweeters to raise the image higher.
i did some research and i found suggestions that the mids should point the opposite passenger and the tweeters should point behind the roof mirror
i can do the first but the second is difficult because they will hit the dash unless i move them more towards me almost under the 6.5's
what is your experience?
where do your drivers shoot?
where you get the best results?


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

in for this! gonna do my first kick panel based tune in years next week and wonder whats been discovered or adapted since 2005 when I had 31 band analog and a lot of hope..


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## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

Lycancatt said:


> in for this! gonna do my first kick panel based tune in years next week and wonder whats been discovered or adapted since 2005 when I had 31 band analog and a lot of hope..


so you have tried before,this is my first try ever.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

I've talked a bit recently about aiming speakers in some other threads, and although I'm not the most well versed on this forum, there are a few things to consider.

Round speakers produce sound omnidirectionally. The sound is the same in front, behind and all the way around them. There are some limits though, at a particular frequency that is dependent upon the size of the cone, all speakers begin to beam, and the higher you play them, the worse the problem gets. When a speaker beams, they must be directly on axis for them to sound as intended, off axis they become very quiet. The sound literally gets focused into a beam, and outside of the beam you don't hear much. Up to that point, however, they sound the same from all directions. 

This is important because it shows that, below beaming, aiming isn't actually that important. A speaker playing within it's ideal bandwidth will sound the same whether it's pointed at your ear, or the passenger mirror, and the reflections will be the same as well since the sound is already expanding in all directions equally. So, aiming isn't as important as many people claim, but the speaker's proximity to other objects is very important. It's very possible that by aiming the speaker you are also changing it's proximity to reflective surfaces, but that's not necessarily the case. Putting a small tweeter in an OEM dash location will sound the same firing straight up as it will firing on axis (below beaming) but moving that tweeter just an inch closer to, or further away from the windshield will make a very big difference. 

Take this for whatever it's worth to you, but the physical location of the speakers is far more important that it's angle.


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## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

well i think that for mids you are right but for the tweeters pointing is because 1 inch tweeter is beaming over 8.8khz and and a 3/4 over 11.8khz


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

backousis said:


> well i think that for mids you are right but for the tweeters pointing is because 1 inch tweeter is beaming over 8.8khz and and a 3/4 over 11.8khz


your math is off. from traditional agreement that beaming starts when the wavelength is equal to the diameter of the cone (it actually mildly starts before that, but thats another topic). considering that and that the speed of sound is about 13504 inches per second (depending on elevation). That would mean a 1" tweeter starts beaming at 13504 Hz, and a 3/4" tweeter starts beaming at about 18000 Hz.

To give you some info about your original question.. In my old build i had my midranges from a 3 way setup in the kicks, with midbass in doors, and tweeters in pillars.. height was never an issue. than again, i never had them up top so idk what it could have been like if they were also in the pillars


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## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

well it is an idea to keep mids in the kicks and tweeters high but they sound better down there.
they are away from the windows.


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## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

i remember back in the day a car with everything eclipse and there was two tweeters on the roof.
i don't know if they were the only tweeters or additional for image height but the sound was shocking.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

backousis said:


> well it is an idea to keep mids in the kicks and tweeters high but they sound better down there.
> they are away from the windows.


Kick panels work great by getting the speakers away from glass, I agree with you completely. I'm just saying that you should stress out too much about how you angle them, because for reasons I've explained, it won't make a huge difference.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Do you already have the drivers or are you ready to try a bunch?


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## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

i have viva tc9fd wideband for mid and i have and a pair of wharfedale widebands 4 inch the ones included at domus satelites
i have try only the vifa so far.
tweeters i have vifa xt25sc90 and dayton amt.
i have try the dayton so far.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

SO much misinformation. Sigh...



gijoe said:


> I've talked a bit recently about aiming speakers in some other threads, and although I'm not the most well versed on this forum, there are a few things to consider.
> 
> Round speakers produce sound omnidirectionally.


And square speakers don't?



gijoe said:


> The sound is the same in front, behind and all the way around them. There are some limits though, at a particular frequency that is dependent upon the size of the cone, all speakers begin to beam, and the higher you play them, the worse the problem gets.


Not necessarily true, see below.



gijoe said:


> When a speaker beams, they must be directly on axis for them to sound as intended, off axis they become very quiet. The sound literally gets focused into a beam, and outside of the beam you don't hear much. Up to that point, however, they sound the same from all directions.
> 
> This is important because it shows that, below beaming, aiming isn't actually that important. A speaker playing within it's ideal bandwidth will sound the same whether it's pointed at your ear, or the passenger mirror, and the reflections will be the same as well since the sound is already expanding in all directions equally. So, aiming isn't as important as many people claim, but the speaker's proximity to other objects is very important. It's very possible that by aiming the speaker you are also changing it's proximity to reflective surfaces, but that's not necessarily the case. Putting a small tweeter in an OEM dash location will sound the same firing straight up as it will firing on axis (below beaming) but moving that tweeter just an inch closer to, or further away from the windshield will make a very big difference.
> 
> Take this for whatever it's worth to you, but the physical location of the speakers is far more important that it's angle.


HIGHLY misleading. Off axis, they will not be "very quiet". far from the truth. The amplitude will drop, yes, but not so much that you can barely hear them as you suggest. That's ridiculous. How much it drops is very dependent on the driver in question. Some, like ring radiator tweeters, drop far more rapidly off axis than other drivers. there are some tweeters, like the Eton 26HD, that have excellent off axis response and don't drop very much (a few db). 

As far as the driver itself is concerned, yes the angle below beaming has no effect. put that in a car and that logic goes out the window. Angle can have a big factor because of reflections even below beaming, which you touch on but downplay. 



SkizeR said:


> your math is off. from traditional agreement that beaming starts when the wavelength is equal to the diameter of the cone (it actually mildly starts before that, but thats another topic). considering that and that the speed of sound is about 13504 inches per second (depending on elevation). That would mean a 1" tweeter starts beaming at 13504 Hz, and a 3/4" tweeter starts beaming at about 18000 Hz.


Those numbers are correct for the math posed, but not in reality. in reality beaming will start to occur a good octave or more below that 'math' number. All you have to do is look at several response graphs on tweeters (in particular) to see this. But since noone seems to believe this, I'm attaching two response graphs. The first is a 1" satori tweeter. Beaming starts at 9k. The other is a 3/4" Dayton. beaming starts at 6k.

To the OP's question, kicks and stage height can be dependent on the vehicle. I've heard cars with kicks that rainbowed and others that staged low all the way across the stage. I've heard a car that had mids at about the mid torso level and it staged low as well. Then others, like my car, has kick mids and door midbass with pillar tweeters and it doesn't stage low at all. I can recall two cars that have kick only speakers and the stage height is consistent across the windshield. 

In my car if I put tweeters in the kicks the right side would drop to about mid dash level and the left side would drop to the kick. 

In summary, you'll just have to try it. Different interiors react differently. If you find yours dropping a lot at the corners, but steady in the center you might try a tweeter that will play lower to help.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

pocket5s said:


> Those numbers are correct for the math posed, but not in reality. in reality beaming will start to occur a good octave or more below that 'math' number.


See my parenthesis 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> See my parenthesis


I did, and "mildly" is a far cry from an octave or more, nor is it another topic.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

pocket5s said:


> SO much misinformation. Sigh...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Square speakers, yes, but oval and rectangular speakers, no. They will have different dispersion patterns for each axis. 

Depending on how far off axis and how high above beaming, yes, very quiet. 

Reflections will be the same, regardless of angle, because as you've already agree, the sound is the same in each direction. How can the reflections be different if the sound waves are the same in all directions? Imagine a sphere, that's how the sound waves are acting, now rotate the spheare, nothing changes. Unless you move the speaker further, or closer to a reflective surface, the angle won't change the reflections.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

pocket5s said:


> I did, and "mildly" is a far cry from an octave or more, nor is it another topic.


Mildly wasn't in reference to how much before. I'm well aware that it's usually an octave before. I'm referring to the drop in output being so mild that it's hardly a concern

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

gijoe said:


> Square speakers, yes, but oval and rectangular speakers, no. They will have different dispersion patterns for each axis.
> 
> Depending on how far off axis and how high above beaming, yes, very quiet. Some


Now you qualify with "some". That's a big difference than the implied all from your original statement. 



gijoe said:


> Reflections will be the same, regardless of angle, because as you've already agree, the sound is the same in each direction. How can the reflections be different if the sound waves are the same in all directions? Imagine a sphere, that's how the sound waves are acting, now rotate the spheare, nothing changes. Unless you move the speaker further, or closer to a reflective surface, the angle won't change the reflections.


The angle will affect the imaging and sometimes staging. I've witnessed it in my car and so has another car, and the frequency range in question was well below beaming. It is fairly easy to test as well. Take a small midrage and put it at the sail panel. fire it straight back, parallel to the glass, on both sides. 

The stage will get very wide, potentially much wider than the car. The downside is the LC and RC will be compressed heavily to their respective parts (not placed correctly between left and center for example). Now take those same two speakers and angle them inboard, perhaps slowly at first if you like. You will find the width has shrunk, but the LC/RC move to their appropriate place on the stage. In my car this took quite a bit of angle, with the mids firing in front of the opposite seat.

In the other car I mentioned the mids were in the dash and the angle of those mids to the windshield had an effect on the imaging as well. 

So making blanket statements like "the angle of the speaker below beaming doesn't matter" is a completely misleading statement. It isn't technically wrong (Andy W makes that statement quiet often), as It doesn't matter with regards to the speakers polar response itself, but it DOES matter to the installation.

Your use of the sphere is a good analogy, but missing one thing. The sound comes off the cone and moves outward, that sphere "growing" as the sound moves out yes? So the angle of the objects near it affect the reflected sound and the result of those reflection angles can be audible. Perhaps not in a frequency response, but in staging and imaging.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

pocket5s said:


> Now you qualify with "some". That's a big difference than the implied all from your original statement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The "Some" was a leftover word from a sentence that I deleted. 

And, I stand by the statement that below beaming the angle doesn't matter, It is not misleading at all. If by changing the angle you have also moved the speaker closer to, or further from, a surface, the response will change. Otherwise the angle will not matter. I appreciate your anecdotal experience, but staging and imaging are all measurable characteristics cause by the frequency response. Every point on a wave acts as a source for a new wave, hence the spherical pattern. Turning that sphere won't change anything, the response is still the same and the reflections will be the same. Unless you move the center of that sphere, the angle won't matter.


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

Midbass in doors, Midrange in the recessed in the crash kick panel, Tweeters in A-Pillars firing 90’ off Axis. High stage, wider stage than any pillar stage by a long shot. This method has been proven time and time again to be one of the best methods, especially in a 2 seat car. 

Bill Pleasant, H.Grape, and many others still compete and can win at the highest level, Hag was only a few point off from Mark Elderidges nascar at finals a few years back in this configuration.

In fact I was just talking to one of the absolute top escelon of Car Audio comp history about this subject a few weeks back.

Go on YouTube look for Scott Buwalda’s Altima Install, you’ll see exactly what I’m saying. Rick Nicoles owns the car now I believe, not sure if he competes or not anymore. That car won multiple championships using DLS gear, has a Hybrid stuff now.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

backousis said:


> i have viva tc9fd wideband for mid and i have and a pair of wharfedale widebands 4 inch the ones included at domus satelites
> i have try only the vifa so far.
> tweeters i have vifa xt25sc90 and dayton amt.
> i have try the dayton so far.



Nice choice, the tc9 will definitely play omni below 3/4Khz so it will be easy to integrate.
It could play nicely higher up but then will need to be on axis, might give good result, might not, depending of reflections, power levels and and expectations.
The xt25 drops a little early for a tweet so might need to be more on axis, not much less than 30deg, I had them but don't really remember their behavior. 
Which AMT is it? Might be very good if you can leverage one of its horizontal or vertical dispersion to your needs

Anyway you should be ready to test multiple places and angles for both, while tuning a minimum to extract a good result in each case for comparison.
I don't think there's a solution that would work for everybody, depends too much of the kick shape, dash shape, cabin and tuning.
Beaming on the tweeter is very important to manage, but it doesn’t mean that early beaming is a bad thing. Only way to know is to test variable angles for each tweeter.
What is the car, a high cabin truck, a normal sedan or a low coupe?

For example I recently went with kicks for the first time, after horns, and was surprised how good it could sound.
It's a bit different as I have 6" mids in doors so off axis, and 10" in footwell with now tweeters right in between.
Tried every tweeters I was interested in, nearly a dozen, with or without waveguide etc, all mostly in the same place but at very different angles.
Some worked really well off axis, some needed to be more on axis, some in between.
First untuned, quick swap between them playing only their bandpass, then tuned a little, playing with the mids.
Then made a selection of a few that I listened to for a week at least, not perfectly tuned but good enough to get an idea.
Final choice was based on a balance of tonality, power response, ease of tune, ease of install, and just feeling.

But you have very good drivers to get it working here.
Are you running passive or active btw? These mids and tweets might need good adjustment to match sensitivity, EQ etc


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> your math is off. from traditional agreement that beaming starts when the wavelength is equal to the diameter of the cone (it actually mildly starts before that, but thats another topic). considering that and that the speed of sound is about 13504 inches per second (depending on elevation). That would mean a 1" tweeter starts beaming at 13504 Hz, and a 3/4" tweeter starts beaming at about 18000 Hz.
> 
> To give you some info about your original question.. In my old build i had my midranges from a 3 way setup in the kicks, with midbass in doors, and tweeters in pillars.. height was never an issue. than again, i never had them up top so idk what it could have been like if they were also in the pillars


Beaming starts well before the equivalent of the cone diameter. This isn't semantics. Use the 1/2 wave rule. It's more accurate. Using a full wavelength for your calculation usually results in about 5dB+ difference between the 0 and 60 degree response whereas 1/2 wave will be the point where the dispersion really begins to diverge. If the name of the game is omni, 5dB is important. 

Also, don't go by diameter. Go by *effective diameter*. Which is 1/2 surround to 1/2 surround.


Edit: So, here's the equation I use:
Speed of Sound = 13500 inches/second
Effective Cone Diameter = ~ 0.8 to 0.9 diameter of driver
1/2 Wave

Let's take a 4" driver...

13500/(4*0.8)/2 = 2109hz

Now go start looking at 4 inch drivers and you'll see that's true, with some variance since not all 4 inch drivers actually have a 4" diameter.


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

mmiller said:


> Midbass in doors, Midrange in the recessed in the crash kick panel, Tweeters in A-Pillars firing 90’ off Axis. High stage, wider stage than any pillar stage by a long shot. This method has been proven time and time again to be one of the best methods, especially in a 2 seat car.
> 
> Bill Pleasant, H.Grape, and many others still compete and can win at the highest level, Hag was only a few point off from Mark Elderidges nascar at finals a few years back in this configuration.
> 
> ...


ive run a set up like this as well had good luck with it . i just checked out the altima biuld , im surprised he did not aim the 3 inch a little more but . im about to do this as well again with a set of hat l4 .


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ErinH said:


> Also, don't go by diameter. Go by *effective diameter*. Which is 1/2 surround to 1/2 surround.


i figured this was a given


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

so would this be true on a wideband format driver as well ?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

audirsfaux said:


> so would this be true on a wideband format driver as well ?


true on all drivers. its physics. there is no getting around it


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> i figured this was a given


Just like using the half-wave formula is?.... 

Point being, if you're going to take the time to explain something, make sure you cover your bases. If you're trying to teach someone something you can't just expect them to know your "given".


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

audirsfaux said:


> so would this be true on a wideband format driver as well ?





SkizeR said:


> true on all drivers. its physics. there is no getting around it


Yep.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

ErinH said:


> Just like using the half-wave formula is?....
> 
> Point being, if you're going to take the time to explain something, make sure you cover your bases. If you're trying to teach someone something you can't just expect them to know your "given".


This, this, MORE THIS. That is entirely my point about misleading and misinformation, which runs rampant on this site (and the various SQ FB groups as well). New people don't understand the "givens" and then go on repeating what they've read and don't understand when someone tells them they are wrong, just flat wrong.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

gijoe said:


> And, I stand by the statement that below beaming the angle doesn't matter, It is not misleading at all. If by changing the angle you have also moved the speaker closer to, or further from, a surface, the response will change. Otherwise the angle will not matter. I appreciate your anecdotal experience, but staging and imaging are all measurable characteristics cause by the frequency response. Every point on a wave acts as a source for a new wave, hence the spherical pattern. Turning that sphere won't change anything, the response is still the same and the reflections will be the same. Unless you move the center of that sphere, the angle won't matter.


Stand by it all you want, it is still wrong. And for F's sake you can't measure the staging and imaging from a frequency response. Where do you even come up with that?


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

so if i run a wideband 4 inch driver on axis it will not beam ? that what i got from a previous comment ?


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

audirsfaux said:


> so if i run a wideband 4 inch driver on axis it will not beam ? that what i got from a previous comment ?


it will always beam. Running it on axis just means that you won't get the rolloff above the beaming point. 

Beaming isn't necessarily to be avoided like the plague so don't think it is a horrible thing. Whenever possible you will have benefits to not playing a speaker well into the beaming reange, but sometimes it's just unavoidable.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

pocket5s said:


> This, this, MORE THIS. That is entirely my point about misleading and misinformation, which runs rampant on this site (and the various SQ FB groups as well). New people don't understand the "givens" and then go on repeating what they've read and don't understand when someone tells them they are wrong, just flat wrong.


If this was your point all along, why didn't you mention the half-wave formula? You're whining about misleading information, but not contributing anything to objectively correct it. You haven't "covered your bases" any better than anyone else here. 

OP started this post because he is wondering how important it is to aim his kick panel speakers. One of his ideas sounds like it will be easy, the other will be a lot of work. My stance all along has been that adjusting the angles a few degrees won't matter. Even using the half-wave formula, a few degrees off axis will not make an audible difference. The speaker will sound the same at all angles until you get pretty high into it's frequency range, where the next speaker should be taking over anyway. A little bit of fabrication might be worth it, but OP needs to know that excessive, difficult fabrication won't make enough of a difference (if any at all) to justify the work. 

We'd be having a different conversation if OP was looking to build a no compromise SQ car, but that's not what we have going on. We have a regular person trying to improve the sound in the car, who is wondering if the work will be worth it.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

pocket5s said:


> Stand by it all you want, it is still wrong. And for F's sake you can't measure the staging and imaging from a frequency response. Where do you even come up with that?


How do you measure staging and imaging? The stereo illusion (staging) is simply a combination of the left response and right response. Staging is purely a balance of the frequency response from the right, and the frequency response from the left. 

Please provide an alternative if you don't agree.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

gijoe said:


> How do you measure staging and imaging? The stereo illusion (staging) is simply a combination of the left response and right response. Staging is purely a balance of the frequency response from the right, and the frequency response from the left.
> 
> Please provide an alternative if you don't agree.


Seriously? you can have a balanced frequency response from left to right and have a terrible stage and no imaging. Timing queues are the primary one for why you'd have no imaging. placement and reflections in the car (there's that dreaded reflection word again) are another that will affect both staging and imaging. 



gijoe said:


> If this was your point all along, why didn't you mention the half-wave formula? You're whining about misleading information, but not contributing anything to objectively correct it. You haven't "covered your bases" any better than anyone else here.


The half wave issue wasn't my point, and obviously you still can't comprehend what you read. 



gijoe said:


> OP started this post because he is wondering how important it is to aim his kick panel speakers. One of his ideas sounds like it will be easy, the other will be a lot of work. My stance all along has been that adjusting the angles a few degrees won't matter. Even using the half-wave formula, a few degrees off axis will not make an audible difference. The speaker will sound the same at all angles until you get pretty high into it's frequency range, where the next speaker should be taking over anyway. A little bit of fabrication might be worth it, but OP needs to know that excessive, difficult fabrication won't make enough of a difference (if any at all) to justify the work.
> 
> We'd be having a different conversation if OP was looking to build a no compromise SQ car, but that's not what we have going on. We have a regular person trying to improve the sound in the car, who is wondering if the work will be worth it.


Yes, that was his question and you gave him misleading information, and back that misleading info up again in that response. The speaker itself will sound the same at any angle below the beaming, but the *installation* of that speaker and it's angle may very well change things.


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## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

Elgrosso said:


> Nice choice, the tc9 will definitely play omni below 3/4Khz so it will be easy to integrate.
> It could play nicely higher up but then will need to be on axis, might give good result, might not, depending of reflections, power levels and and expectations.
> The xt25 drops a little early for a tweet so might need to be more on axis, not much less than 30deg, I had them but don't really remember their behavior.
> Which AMT is it? Might be very good if you can leverage one of its horizontal or vertical dispersion to your needs
> ...




it's dayton amt mini 8. the xt25 was better on the dash but the dayton sounds better at the kicks.
i play everything active except mid tweeter but i can make passive crossovers myself.
and might full go active later.
the car is a hatchback fiat stilo 3door 
i guess i need to experiment a lot.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

I've seen varying results in kick panels. It seems stage height varies with vehicle. I got very lucky in my Jetta. No rainbow and high stage. If you can, try getting as close and high to the firewall as possible.

If you need a new location, lots of people have had success in the door. It's still away from the windshield.


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## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

I800C0LLECT said:


> I've seen varying results in kick panels. It seems stage height varies with vehicle. I got very lucky in my Jetta. No rainbow and high stage. If you can, try getting as close and high to the firewall as possible.
> 
> If you need a new location, lots of people have had success in the door. It's still away from the windshield.


 i thought i should do the opposite to avoid the dash between the drivers and listeners


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Well reflections can be your friend when trying to get stage height out of the kicks. The tweeters could be pushed up into the pillars to help as well.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Fun thread.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

gijoe said:


> How do you measure staging and imaging? The stereo illusion (staging) is simply a combination of the left response and right response. Staging is purely a balance of the frequency response from the right, and the frequency response from the left.
> 
> Please provide an alternative if you don't agree.


I always thought that it was more of a time domain thing.
or if you want to work in the frequency domain, then a phase thing.

There is no "frequency response" needed, and thus a snap of the fingers, or a wide band click or pop can image very well in the time domain.

Or am I misunderstanding what frequency response means?


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

backousis said:


> it's dayton amt mini 8. the xt25 was better on the dash but the dayton sounds better at the kicks.
> i play everything active except mid tweeter but i can make passive crossovers myself.
> and might full go active later.
> the car is a hatchback fiat stilo 3door
> i guess i need to experiment a lot.


Don’t know this Dayton but it has a high FS, so I guess you should get good results if both are kind of on-axis and crossed high like 5/6K (?).
Depending of the under-dash shape I would play with variables angles between aimed over each seat head to aimed to the center of the roof.
But the kick panel looks very thin, could be hard to place the tc9.

Or what about just in doors?


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## Focused4door (Aug 15, 2015)

backousis said:


> i thought i should do the opposite to avoid the dash between the drivers and listeners


Reflections from a driver high in the door card are usually no where near as bad as one near the windshield. The hard flat windshield surface tends to have a very strong reflection. 

The dash is normally curved so it ends up with multiple smaller amplitude reflections.

Try both and listen and measure to find out for sure, but I would be surprised if high in the door has worse reflections than near the windshield.


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## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

the dayton have a good dispersion but it need to be crossed high.the vifa can go lower but don't have good dipersion.
yes the kick panels have no room. i have removed the footrest.
low at the door just over the midbass might be a good spot.
i might try the daytons at the kicks and the vifa at the roof or a pillars crossed over 10k and adjusted with an l pad something like the cdt upstage kit


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Niebur3 said:


> Fun thread.


It's comforting to note that nothings changed over the last 3 months


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Height cues are ~1.25khz and up and typically a bulk of this content, is from the tweeter. Mounting the tweeter at or above dash level, can go a long way towards giving good height. Making it immaterial where you install the mid and woofer. Of course all this is assuming you have the right tune. 

You can have the tweets up high but with a sub par tune, you could still wind up with dash or lower height. For instance, in a 3 way if you're hearing the door mounted woofers before the pillar mounted tweets, the precedence effect would override your height cues, apart from it sounding tonally horrible and unfixable at the eq.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

sqnut said:


> Height cues are ~1.25khz and up and typically a bulk of this content, is from the tweeter. Mounting the tweeter at or above dash level, can go a long way towards giving good height. Making it immaterial where you install the mid and woofer. Of course all this is assuming you have the right tune.
> 
> ...


A song like the Violent Femmes "Country Death Song" that starts out with an acoustic vase guitar will not have a lot of 1.25+ kHz content.

One need the music to have content up in the tweeter band to pull the sound upwards from the kneecaps. It should not be possible to for just a "good tune" to have only lower speakers playing, to seemingly move upwards.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Holmz said:


> A song like the Violent Femmes "Country Death Song" that starts out with an acoustic vase guitar will not have a lot of 1.25+ kHz content.
> 
> One need the music to have content up in the tweeter band to pull the sound upwards from the kneecaps. It should not be possible to for just a "good tune" to have only lower speakers playing, to seemingly move upwards.


The times when you're hearing only stuff below 500hz is perhaps 0.000001% of your listening time. I think we're talking about the 99.999999.

Turn off the mids/tweets and only listen to that portion from your woofer. Does it still sound the same?


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

I turned off my tweeters and only ran my GB25 in the kicks. After MS-8 tuning and no logic 7 the height went from in my dash to half way up the windshield. So whatever you do, make sure you go through your corrections before giving up


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## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

i tried a pair of cheap piezolectric tweeters first at sail panels then at the roof left and right of the shades and last at the top of A pillars firing parallel to the windscreen so off axis.
the last position worked very well.i made 6db l pads and 2.2uf caps.
they blended very well and the sound stage raised at eyes height.
i think i will use the xt25 at kicks and the daytons at the pillars.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Holmz said:


> I always thought that it was more of a time domain thing.
> or if you want to work in the frequency domain, then a phase thing.
> 
> There is no "frequency response" needed, and thus a snap of the fingers, or a wide band click or pop can image very well in the time domain.
> ...


You thoughtcorrect. matching frequency response from left and right helps with imaging focus, which can also help with staging depth and some other cues, but has really nothing to do with other aspects of staging. He doesn't know what he's talking about.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

gijoe said:


> How do you measure staging and imaging? The stereo illusion (staging) is simply a combination of the left response and right response. Staging is purely a balance of the frequency response from the right, and the frequency response from the left.
> 
> Please provide an alternative if you don't agree.


You measure staging and imaging visually and tonality aurally. The proper imaging and tonality is a combination of correct timing and response. Hearing all speakers at the exact same time, balanced L&R response and the correct response balance across the 10 octaves.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

sqnut said:


> You measure staging and imaging visually and tonality aurally. The proper imaging and tonality is a combination of correct timing and response. Hearing all speakers at the exact same time, balanced L&R response and the correct response balance across the 10 octaves.


What units are they measured in visually?
Lux? Luminosity?, photons?

Visual and aurally are senses rather than measurements.

Measurements are ideally a head shaped deal with two microphone in the usually places.
The analysis technique to put it into the context of stereo image would be cross spectral phase. There is no other measurement technique. I know of, the rest are all subjective.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

sqnut said:


> The times when you're hearing only stuff below 500hz is perhaps 0.000001% of your listening time. I think we're talking about the 99.999999.
> 
> Turn off the mids/tweets and only listen to that portion from your woofer. Does it still sound the same?


I gave you one example of a song, and you come back with 99%... 
is that 99.99% my music, your music, or everyone else's music?


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## Northern_SQ (Feb 16, 2018)

Really enjoying this thread, following...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Holmz said:


> What units are they measured in visually?
> Lux? Luminosity?, photons?
> 
> Visual and aurally are senses rather than measurements.
> ...


Normally I would just ignore someone who made that comment, but since it's from you, it definitely merits a response.

If you don't understand what I'm saying, it just shows your lack of understanding of what good sound in a car is all about, much less the ability to dial it in.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

sqnut said:


> Normally I would just ignore someone who made that comment, but since it's from you, it definitely merits a response.
> 
> If you don't understand what I'm saying, it just shows your lack of *understanding of what good sound in a car is all about, much less the ability to dial it in. *


Well I am sorry you feel that way.

This is a DIY forum, and I find this topic interesting. Throwing out a bunch of buzzwords on "imaging" and "stage" does not seem to be addressing the OP's question, and I am not even sure I personally know what "stage" means.
So do not blame me for not understanding what you are saying - until you can make a good attempt at it, then we share the responsibility for communication.

What is *good sound in a car is all about*, and how do *we dial it in*?

The concept of "Rainbowing" I am familiar with conceptually, and it seems like more people than 0.00001% experience it.
As middle-C on an 88-key piano is at 440 Hz, there are more notes below 500 Hz than above it on a piano. So it is certainly possible to have music with content below 500 Hz if there are no high notes being tickled, or there are lower notes with harmonics that do not extend up to pull the "Image"/"Stage" up.

GIJoe's question about "how one measures it" certainly does not involve vision, but one will look in the direction that the sound comes from.


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## mitchell0715 (Apr 11, 2015)

A little unrelated, but it has to do with kick panels. 

I have 2 6.5's per side, one in the door and one in the kick. I have a weird sucking out between around 150-750hz on the driver side. No TA is done, and the filters are matched however the speakers in the kick panels are also on a passive crossover.

I'm thinking it's more of a crossover issue rather than an EQ/TA issue. Anyone experience this?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

mitchell0715 said:


> A little unrelated, but it has to do with kick panels.
> 
> I have 2 6.5's per side, one in the door and one in the kick. I have a weird sucking out between around 150-750hz on the driver side. No TA is done, and the filters are matched however the speakers in the kick panels are also on a passive crossover.
> 
> I'm thinking it's more of a crossover issue rather than an EQ/TA issue. Anyone experience this?


God only knows...
The wavelength of wounds is about 1' at 1000 Hz, so the 150 Hz ia ~6'.

If you only have 1 speaker playing at a time and it is OK, like a right hand side woofer, and then the RHS mid-range... Then if the sound goes away with more speakers added in, then it is a speaker phase, or time delay, issue and TA should fix it.
If one speaker is bad on its own, then it is probably more of a resonance mode.

Maybe do the TA first, and see how you go?


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## mitchell0715 (Apr 11, 2015)

Holmz said:


> God only knows...
> The wavelength of wounds is about 1' at 1000 Hz, so the 150 Hz ia ~6'.
> 
> If you only have 1 speaker playing at a time and it is OK, like a right hand side woofer, and then the RHS mid-range... Then if the sound goes away with more speakers added in, then it is a speaker phase, or time delay, issue and TA should fix it.
> ...


That's a good idea to play just one set, and probably what I'll try next. 

I've wanted to do TA for some time but I'm nowhere near trained enough to be able to discern what I want without the ability to kind of adjust it on the fly. Going in and guessing numbers just seems like a ****show..


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

the secret to kick panel instals has allways been . aim them properly . use a set of tweets in the sails or a pillar to help pull the stage up . done .


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

audirsfaux said:


> the secret to kick panel instals has allways been . aim them properly . use a set of tweets in the sails or a pillar to help pull the stage up . done .


My current project, with horns under the dash, really has me thinking about doing an old-school kick panel install. I haven't done underdash horns in over five years, and I forgot how deep the stage is. Way deeper than with speakers on my dash.

YMMV because of the depth of the windshield; in my CUV the windshield isn't very deep.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Patrick Bateman said:


> My current project, with horns under the dash, really has me thinking about doing an old-school kick panel install. I haven't done underdash horns in over five years, and I forgot how deep the stage is. Way deeper than with speakers on my dash.
> 
> YMMV because of the depth of the windshield; in my CUV the windshield isn't very deep.


Oh oh, should we ask what kind of horns?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

PLDs are the key for it to work, and under dash especially with horns you can't get much better for most vehicles.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

edit: I can't read


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

audirsfaux said:


> the secret to kick panel instals has allways been . aim them properly . use a set of tweets in the sails or a pillar to help pull the stage up . done .


So it will rainbow, or pull down, with the example opening track I mentioned above (Femmes "Country Death Song")?




Patrick Bateman said:


> My current project, with horns under the dash, really has me thinking about doing an old-school kick panel install. I haven't done underdash horns in over five years, and I forgot how deep the stage is. Way deeper than with speakers on my dash.
> 
> YMMV because of the depth of the windshield; in my CUV the windshield isn't very deep.


How is it able to sound high?
Are the horns actually "under the dash" like near knee level?
or coming out of the dash like towards the windshield?


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Holmz said:


> How is it able to sound high?
> Are the horns actually "under the dash" like near knee level?
> or coming out of the dash like towards the windshield?


Height of the sound stage is a physco-acoustic effect. 


With Horns or KP systems, when it is imaging and staging properly, you no longer localize to the speakers and your brain will put the stage at or near eye level. Rainbow effects can happen when you listen to far right or left lower frequencies being played if there are no upper harmonics, so tweeters or even mids (depending on operating frequencies) arent going to improve the rainbow effect if the midbass are mounted low in the front stage. 

Over the years the number 1 comment of people who listened to horn system is always "what speakers are playing up on the dash?" it is very convincing with very little or no localization to the individual speakers.


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

Holmz said:


> So it will rainbow, or pull down, with the example opening track I mentioned above (Femmes "Country Death Song")?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


see this is the issue with most of your reply's to posts like this , 

1. you have no real world knowledge of what you are arguing about 
2. speculation and math does not all ways remain a constant in car audio 
3. sometimes you just need to trust "us" people who have been doing this for years with success
4. no matter what anybody says sound quality is a relative term . ex . my system sounds great to me but may not to you or a judge in a sq comp 
5. the proof is in the pudding do not say something wont work because the physics sound off to you , or you have not tried it . 
6. horns can sound amazing if done properly and yes they fire at your nuts and can toss an amazing high and wide sound stage . 

sorry i used nuts and toss in the same sentence .. end rant


and if you do not believe the horn comment i dare you to argue with eric stevens about this topic .


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Well I can understand not getting baited into "trust us". We haven't gone through the psycho acoustic threads in a while. Werewolf is a great start. There are others that will pop up when you start going through them.

I'm on Tapatalk or I'd try to link them, sorry


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## chevbowtie22 (Nov 23, 2008)

It's been a long time since I've posted on here. I must say threads like this are what I've been missing. An argument on sound quality principles like this is tantalizing to say the least.

I had horns in my last car. Stage height from a horn system is something someone needs to experience before most people would believe it. I fooled quite a few people in my car with the whole "where are the tweeters?" act.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

audirsfaux said:


> ...


see this is the issue with most of your reply's to posts like this 
For real? First SQNut, now you. Maybe I do have a communication or 'tone' problem. Please reread that "reply", there are three (3) questions in there.

1. you have no real world knowledge of what you are arguing about 
Hence the questions. Checking the URL banner is says DIY forum, so you should expect a question once in a while
2. speculation and math does not all ways remain a constant in car audio 
What part of physics changes?
3. sometimes you just need to trust "us" people who have been doing this for years with success
I have a problem with credulity
4. no matter what anybody says sound quality is a relative term . ex . my system sounds great to me but may not to you or a judge in a sq comp 
Too true
5. the proof is in the pudding do not say something wont work because the physics sound off to you , or you have not tried it . 
I am usually asking how it works, not claiming that it will not.
6. horns can sound amazing if done properly and yes they fire at your nuts and can toss an amazing high and wide sound stage . 
So those horns were closer the knee level then, and not "on the dash". Thanks.

sorry i used nuts and toss in the same sentence .. end rant
I would still like to know what makes horns better and have that magic.
And why people put the tweeters in the sails or pillars to pull-up the stage, but horns do not need the stage pulled up.


and if you do not believe the horn comment i dare you to argue with eric stevens about this topic .
I believe the comment, I just do not believe anyone has really answered why or how.




Eric Stevens said:


> Height of the sound stage is a physco-acoustic effect.
> 
> 
> With Horns or KP systems, when it is imaging and staging properly, you no longer localize to the speakers and your brain will put the stage at or near eye level. Rainbow effects can happen when you listen to far right or left lower frequencies being played if there are no upper harmonics, so tweeters or even mids (depending on operating frequencies) arent going to improve the rainbow effect if the midbass are mounted low in the front stage.
> ...


Ok I think I am getting it...

The brain puts the sound between the eyes, unless it is predominantly one speaker playing... so i guess if the tweeters were in the kick panels and the woofers in the sails, then I would rainbow at the higher freqs?

What makes horns different?
Are the like magnapans/Mlogans where the phase centre appears behind them?
Or what makes em different?


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

What makes horns different?
Are the like magnapans/Mlogans where the phase centre appears behind them?
Or what makes em different?[/QUOTE]

i don't really know the technical answer to that question ,, my best guess is witchcraft .
id assume the horn part has a lot to do with direction of sound and dispersion , and being able to play a very large portion of upper octave's , im sure eric could elaborate on this quite a bit for both of us .

i think the rainbow effect is not such a huge concern with modern dsp's and time alignment methods , my mids are in the dash tweets in the sails and my midbass is low and forward in the cabin i have no rainbow effect at all and my sub is in the trunk but the bass hits in the center of the hood so ?


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## Focused4door (Aug 15, 2015)

mitchell0715 said:


> That's a good idea to play just one set, and probably what I'll try next.
> 
> I've wanted to do TA for some time but I'm nowhere near trained enough to be able to discern what I want without the ability to kind of adjust it on the fly. Going in and guessing numbers just seems like a ****show..


Time alignment using a tape measure is really easy to do.

There are better methods, but just using a tape measure is far better than no time alignment at all.


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## mitchell0715 (Apr 11, 2015)

Focused4door said:


> Time alignment using a tape measure is really easy to do.
> 
> There are better methods, but just using a tape measure is far better than no time alignment at all.


You really think so huh? I guess my concern is having it sound even worse after TA but I could easily just switch it back

I assume you lose any SQ for the passenger after you do this, which I guess I could care less about because most passengers will never understand what TA even is

I'll do some testing and report back!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

mitchell0715 said:


> You really think so huh?


not even a question. Its a definite


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## mitchell0715 (Apr 11, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> not even a question. Its a definite


I'll give it a shot, thanks!


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Holmz said:


> ... so i guess if the tweeters were in the kick panels and the woofers in the sails, then I would rainbow at the higher freqs?


Ha, never thought of doing that!
The "source" of the rainbow is the woofer, so if you reverse them you won’t have any rainbow.
Tweeter being high FR will not be localizable, or barely, and woofer even in worst case will only be localizable on the dash.



Holmz said:


> What makes horns different?
> Are the like magnapans/Mlogans where the phase centre appears behind them?
> Or what makes em different?


Ho man you need to read the HLCD forum here, tons of good informations!
To me it's in this order:
1 - dynamics
2 - low distortion
3 - dispersion pattern
4 - stealth (yes )


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Holmz said:


> I would still like to know what makes horns better and have that magic.
> And why people put the tweeters in the sails or pillars to pull-up the stage, but horns do not need the stage pulled up.
> 
> Tweeters wont pull a low sound stage up, but if it isnt working properly the worst that will happen is you localize to the tweeter.
> ...


No the brain doesnt put the sound between the eyes, the brain puts it at "eye level" meaning where you are looking. So, if you are looking down it will be down low where you are looking, if you are looking straight ahead it will be straight ahead etc etc. As far as rainbow effects and what the causes are, it cannot be summed up in a simple sentence, there are too many factors at work.

Horns are different in many aspects. 1- they produce a more coherent wave front 2- you are able to do pattern control with a horn and whch has multiple benefits, two primary are using amplitude to overcome early time arrival and preventing early reflections 3- They are very high senstivity which results in greatly improved dynamic range and lower distortion so it sounds more realistic.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Holmz said:


> Ok I think I am getting it...
> 
> The brain puts the sound between the eyes, unless it is predominantly one speaker playing... so i guess if the tweeters were in the kick panels and the woofers in the sails, then I would rainbow at the higher freqs?
> 
> ...


EDIT: Eric hit the reply button while I was typing and beat me to the punch with a simpler and more concise response, but I'll leave my post as is...


Regarding your first question, I'm sure that you are familiar with ITD & IID as they relate to localization, but it's always good to have a basic refresher...

*Acoustics: Localization*

Also the combination of where you are looking/focusing your attention, and the shape of your outer ear allow you to localize sounds in the vertical plane and behind you. Try deforming your ears and see if you can still locate sounds that come from above, below, or behind you (let's say a songbird in a tree or a rattlesnake on the ground out in front of you or behind you).



Regarding what's "different" about horns & kick panel locations: 

At least one difference was already mentioned...PLD (Path Length Differences).

Kick Panels speaker locations *usually* offer the least amount of PLD's. Since the actual compression drivers (where the wave front originates) for the horn bodies usually end up right against the firewall and in the extreme outer L & R corners of the kickpanels, the PLD's are minimized and less overall Time Correction is needed. This is especially important at the lower frequencies that the horn is playing, both at & near the crossover region to the mids/midbass drivers.

If you instead placed standard dome type tweeters deep in the far L & R kick panels near the firewall and deep under the dash to achieve better PLD's, at least two other detrimental things happen:

1. Limited Output Capability. Nearly all standard dome-type/direct-radiator tweeters are not as efficient as compression-type horn drivers, nor do they have the SPL capability.

So with a standard pair of tweeters buried under the dash/in the kickpanels there will be more loss in SPL due to obstacles (including your own legs), diffraction (quite a bit may be dissipated up into and behind the dash), and absorbtion by your legs/clothing, the seats, and floor carpeting/padding.

This means that standard tweeters will most likely need to be pushed to their limits and nearer (or into) distortion to achieve realistic output levels. And usually more drastic EQ will need to be applied, which may introduce even more phase shift, and a larger difference in power response from Left to Right.

The outer horn face/exit flange of most car audio horns are usually placed right at the lower edge of the lower dash (where your knees would be if the seats were all the way forward) and they usually angle slightly upward into the cabin perhaps 5°-20° from the horizontal plane. Picture the outer perimeter of the passenger side horn's flange being just under where the lower hinge of a passenger glove compartment usually is, and aimed somewhat towards your lower belly if your front seats are as far back as they'll go.

Because of the horn's placement and their efficiency, they do not need to be driven nearly as hard as standard direct-radiating/dome tweeters would need to be. Usually, just a few watts would be sufficient to drive you out of the vehicle. This means that distortion can usually be kept at a minimum. And most of the obstruction/diffraction/losses and differences between L/R FR and radiation patterns are minimized.

Many "horn cars" that compete also have extended seat rails that allow the front seat(s) to be positioned even further back, minimizing PLD's even further and improving L/R power response.

2. Due to the position of the kickpanel midrange/midbass drivers AND the horns, the critical midrange frequencies and upper treble as well are kept further away from the highly reflective windshield and the junction/intersection of the windshield, side glass, and dash top, where most other setups would have smaller midrange and/or tweeter drivers up on the dash/A-pillars/sail panels. Therefore the power response overall and from L to R *should* be better (the differences in directly-radiated energy from each driver and the reflected energy should be "cleaner" and more alike with smoother overall FR).


I'm sure that Eric, Mic, Erin, Winslow & others will chime in if I'm way off base on this. 

.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Here is some simplified information to help with understanding the factors at work to create a phantom stereo image.

I will add that the creation of a stereo sound stage is the product of three simple things 
1- Amplitude or sound pressure level
2- Arrival timing of the sound waves AKA Time Arrival
3- Phase or relative phase at the listening position

Each of the three elements has a dominant factor in determining image placement and sound stage creation in different frequency ranges. 
1-Amplitude is dominant at higher frequencies above 2 to 4 Khz
2-Arrival timing is dominant in the mid-range frequencies 500 to 2 or 4 Khz
3- Phase is dominant below 400 or 500 hz.

obviously all three are relevant at all frequencies but to different degrees of relevance. The best systems will be the ones that get all three as close to perfect as possible. 

I am a firm believer in minimizing the PLD as much as possible to get things as good as possible for the best result after applying signal processing to overcome the systems deficiencies. The process of put them where you can and process the hell out of it is not the recipe for good results.

There is a lot more to this as sound reproduction is complex. Midrange and tweeters mounted in pillars etc. near reflective surfaces cause more issues that there mounting position helps. But as with anything engineering related, you choose your trade offs relative to your desired outcome. 
Stage height over spacial characteristics, stage height over tonal characteristics etc, etc.

Here is some condensed and simplified results of time domain related measurements in the car to compare amplitude of first arrival versus first reflection and compare a horn system to a kick panel system, and a mid and tweeter pillar system you would measure and find the following:

Horns will exhibit an amplitude difference of 6 to 12dB with minimal ringing 

Kick panel direct radiator will yield 3 to 6dB with more ringing

Pillar or dash mounted mid-range and tweeter can be almost impossible to determine intial arrival from first reflection with lots of ringing. If you are willing to modify the dash and remove its reflection from causing problems you can get results that are close to a kick panel and improve the ringing and resulting comb filtering


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Eric Stevens said:


> ...
> 1) Pillar or dash mounted mid-range and tweeter can be almost impossible to determine intial arrival from first reflection with lots of ringing.
> 
> 2) If you are willing to modify the dash and remove its reflection from causing problems you can get results that are close to a kick panel and improve the ringing and resulting comb filtering


Thanks for taking the time.

Can you expound a bit more on these?
1) ringing as in a time-domain comb from the reflections?
Or
I have seen time-domain plots of speakers, and ribbons generally seem to have less smearing of an impulse. (I assume because of lower. mass). Do the compression drivers behave fundamentally better in the time domain than piston-type cones?

2) so for a horn is there a difference in a horn firing a reflection off the windshield as opposed to a direct aimed install? (Assuming a more directed beam)
In a basic sense what are the fundamentals of a modifying the dash "to remove its reflection" be?
- reflections off the glass?
- or reflections from the glass back to the dash and hence the first (secondary) bounce off the dash?
- or something else?


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Holmz said:


> Thanks for taking the time.
> 
> Can you expound a bit more on these?
> 1) ringing as in a time-domain comb from the reflections?
> ...


Yes there is a big difference based on mounting location even with a horn. If you can get the windshield and dash to act as part of the horn you could eliminate much of the problem but this would require significant fabrication and if you can get better results from under dash why bother. 

What I am suggesting is modifying the dash so it absorbs any sounds being produced by the speakers mounted in the area. Resulting improvements will directly correlate to effectiveness of the absorption in the frequency range they are operating. If its a tweeter with a high pass at 3000 hz its not so difficult but if you have a 3" midrange playing to 250 Hz it will require a very well designed trap to absorb the energy effectively.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Eric Stevens said:


> Yes there is a big difference based on mounting location even with a horn. If you can get the windshield and dash to act as part of the horn you could eliminate much of the problem but this would require significant fabrication and if you can get better results from under dash why bother.
> 
> What I am suggesting is modifying the dash so it absorbs any sounds being produced by the speakers mounted in the area. Resulting improvements will directly correlate to effectiveness of the absorption in the frequency range they are operating. If its a tweeter with a high pass at 3000 hz its not so difficult but if you have a 3" midrange playing to 250 Hz it will require a very well designed trap to absorb the energy effectively.


^Thanks^

I need to "take to" the dash anyhow. with at least a jig saw...
So I was thinking ribbons aiming up, and then mid-bass in a small sealed enclosure, also aiming up.
(Unsure at the moment about the 8" mid-bass, but if I can stuff them into the dash, then I will.)

So "dash so it absorbs any sounds being produced by the speakers mounted in the area"...:

- like a rubber gasket to attach the speakers to the dash (isolating them from resonating the dash)

- Some dash stiffeners and/or absorbers on the dash' sheet metal to remove its resonance modes?

- Or a absorber on the top of the dash, like an open cell foam, to suck out stray sound impinging upon it? (i have asked in other treads about fabric dash covers, but it seems like raw fabric is not something that many know where to obtain it from - but some material over some absorber seems feasible)


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Holmz said:


> ^Thanks^
> 
> I need to "take to" the dash anyhow. with at least a jig saw...
> So I was thinking ribbons aiming up, and then mid-bass in a small sealed enclosure, also aiming up.
> ...


No rebuild the top of the dash, turning it into a sound trap effective as low in the frequency spectrum as possible. 

I am not telling you to damp a vibration, this is not a vibration issue, its an issue of how the sound waves being produced react with the environment. You need to absorb the sound waves, what the hell just get rid of the boundary all together thats even better. there you go build a system and get rid of the dash and create a heads up projection system and holgraphic control system.

BTW You are ignoring my previous post and the point about PLD. Up high has the worstb PLD unless you can mount the speakers in the engine compartment.


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## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

ok horns seems interesting.1khz is not that hard to do.do you guys with knowledge think it would be good to cross at 1khz to the midbasses at the doors or better to cross a 3.5 inch mid at 500hz and tweeter at 3khz at the kicks?


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## bnae38 (Oct 3, 2015)

Subd, was thinking about trying c3cx in the kicks myself..


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

The dash vs kick pld difference in most modern cars is negligible. The dash corners can be the same distance away as a kick install, unlike cars of say the 90’s. 

In the case of a horn setup that also means your mid is going to be closer in almost all situations because the CD and horn body will be in the way and prevent getting a mid as far forward as you could if it wasn’t there, unless you cut into the firewall or through the floor. 

That isn’t negating a kick install (my car has kick mids) or even the use of horns, I just believe the whole pld thing isn’t as relevant anymore, short of a 2 seat car. I have yet to hear a car that made me think “man this would be so much better if the plds weren’t so big”

I’ve heard a few 2 seat cars and only one sounded as good in two seat as it did in 1 seat and it didn’t use horns 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

pocket5s said:


> The dash vs kick pld difference in most modern cars is negligible. The dash corners can be the same distance away as a kick install, unlike cars of say the 90’s.


Disagree. If anything, it's getting worse.

Here's why:

Twenty years ago, the most popular cars for sale were sedans. Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, etc.

In 2018, car sales are so crummy, Dodge is seriously considering halting their car sales entirely.

The global car market is slowly moving towards a world where people mostly drive trucks, SUVs and CUVs.

And those vehicles tend to have windshields that are more upright, and dashes that are shallower. 

In my Mazda CX5, a popular CUV, the dash is SIGNIFICANTLY shallower than the firewall.

I *do* agree that a lot of small cars have very very deep dashes. For instance, the dash of a Honda Civic is about 2-3 feet deeper than my dash. The windshield on a Civic is seriosuly sloped.



















Here's an illustration of the situation.

The pic is a little bit deceptive. Note that the windshield slope isn't tremendously different. _But note where the seats are._ In the CX5, like many SUVs, the seats are way way more upright, and the driver is sitting much closer to the dash.

In hindsight, I probably should've stuck with my sedan, the configuration of trucks, SUVs and CUVs isn't the best for a deep soundstage. I've even looked into modifying my CX5 so that I could move the seats back further. (I'm 6'3" tall, and I would LOVE to have another 4" of seat travel.)


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Disagree. If anything, it's getting worse.
> 
> Here's why:
> 
> ...


care to explain what difference that makes? seems like you left that part out


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

SkizeR said:


> care to explain what difference that makes? seems like you left that part out












In a right triangle, the diagonal is 41.4% longer than the edges. When you put your speakers in the kicks, it comes close to forming a right triangle. (See pic above.)

This might be a little bit less of a problem in a sedan, particularly one with a deep dash. For instance, the Honda civic pictured above has a significantly longer pathlength. But the kicks are still further away.

I'm not saying kicks are the only option, I'm saying CUVs, SUVs and pickups have particularly short pathlengths when speakers are on the dash. CUVs and SUVs are definitely big vehicles, but a great deal of their volume is accomplished by raising the roof and making the driver sit more upright. For instance, my Genesis is over a foot longer than my CX5, but my CX5 has more internal volume. Take a look at the length of the door on that Civic pictured above; it's MUCH longer than a CUV.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Eric Stevens said:


> No rebuild the top of the dash, turning it into a sound trap effective as low in the frequency spectrum as possible.
> 
> I am not telling you to damp a vibration, this is not a vibration issue, its an issue of how the sound waves being produced react with the environment. You need to absorb the sound waves, ...
> 
> BTW You are ignoring my previous post and the point about PLD. Up high has the worst PLD unless you can mount the speakers in the engine compartment.


I am not sure the kick panels work in my case. I am going to have to look closely whether there is any room. So I was thinking of everything in the dash, and then I would not be adverse to putting some sonex over the dash leaving just holes for the speakers.
So in that case with the speakers all clustered close together, then the PLD becomes small.

Here is the example of my chin scratching dilemma...


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Patrick Bateman said:


> In a right triangle, the diagonal is 41.4% longer than the edges. When you put your speakers in the kicks, it comes close to forming a right triangle. (See pic above.)
> 
> This might be a little bit less of a problem in a sedan, particularly one with a deep dash. For instance, the Honda civic pictured above has a significantly longer pathlength. But the kicks are still further away.
> 
> I'm not saying kicks are the only option, I'm saying CUVs, SUVs and pickups have particularly short pathlengths when speakers are on the dash. CUVs and SUVs are definitely big vehicles, but a great deal of their volume is accomplished by raising the roof and making the driver sit more upright. For instance, my Genesis is over a foot longer than my CX5, but my CX5 has more internal volume. Take a look at the length of the door on that Civic pictured above; it's MUCH longer than a CUV.


I didn't say ALL, I said most. And my brand new truck has no significant difference from dash to kick. Even if it did, so what?


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Holmz said:


> I am not sure the kick panels work in my case. I am going to have to look closely whether there is any room. So I was thinking of everything in the dash, and then I would not be adverse to putting some sonex over the dash leaving just holes for the speakers.
> So in that case with the speakers all clustered close together, then the PLD becomes small.
> 
> Here is the example of my chin scratching dilemma...


I know what the problem is now! you are on the wrong forum.

this is not DIY "Military" A 






If you are driving something like this I dont think you are after the nouances of increasing the depth and width of the sound stage, You just need some volume to over come the high ambient noise levels.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

audirsfaux said:


> i think the rainbow effect is not such a huge concern with modern dsp's and time alignment methods , my mids are in the dash tweets in the sails and my midbass is low and forward in the cabin i have no rainbow effect at all and my sub is in the trunk but the bass hits in the center of the hood so ?


almost nothing to do with DSP. If you have the mids and tweeters in the dash, then of course you aren't going to have it rainbow. the vast majority of your sound is originating from above the dash, not below it. 

There was another comment/question about why horns magically don't rainbow. well, they can, it depends on the car. The worst staging car I've ever heard with regards to rainbowing was a horn car. He later switched to widebands on the pillars and solved all his staging problems. The car just didn't work with horns.

Another vehicle, an S10 that has a build log on here somewhere and has changed hands a few times is a different example. in that vehicle you sit pretty close to the dash, to the point where your knees are mere inches from the horn mouth. mids are in low doors (TERRIBLE pld btw), mb and sub behind you. It stages surprisingly high and is incredibly fun to listen to. It isn't a great SQ vehicle by any means, but it is a lot of fun and would be cool to have (I believe it is for sale  ).

The point is there is nothing magical about them with regards to stage height. It can go either way, as with most things in car audio there are very few hard set rules.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

mitchell0715 said:


> You really think so huh? I guess my concern is having it sound even worse after TA but I could easily just switch it back
> 
> I assume you lose any SQ for the passenger after you do this, which I guess I could care less about because most passengers will never understand what TA even is
> 
> I'll do some testing and report back!


If you find that tape measure you can use this calculator:

http://tracerite.com/calc.html

And if you can't find a tape measure, there is an even simpler method to get you close, your ears. Now before you roll your eyes (as I used to when that answer came my way), it is pretty simple. I'll send it via PM to avoid more thread clutter.


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

Eric Stevens said:


> I know what the problem is now! you are on the wrong forum.
> 
> this is not DIY "Military" A
> 
> ...


holy crap is this what the fuss is about ?


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## mitchell0715 (Apr 11, 2015)

pocket5s said:


> If you find that tape measure you can use this calculator:
> 
> http://tracerite.com/calc.html
> 
> And if you can't find a tape measure, there is an even simpler method to get you close, your ears. Now before you roll your eyes (as I used to when that answer came my way), it is pretty simple. I'll send it via PM to avoid more thread clutter.


Thanks for your PM, I replied to it. It helped a ton!


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## Vx220 (Nov 30, 2015)

mitchell0715 said:


> Thanks for your PM, I replied to it. It helped a ton!


Could I be PM'd as well, looking for an easy TA method to try! 

Thanks in advance


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Eric Stevens said:


> I know what the problem is now! you are on the wrong forum.
> 
> this is not DIY "Military" A
> 
> ...


I am actually trying to make it sound good. So I am after those nuances.
But some sound dedeading may be needed... People put stereos into Dodge Rams, which it is most similar to once one gets over the looks.
(I am probably spoiled from have a decent 30 year old home stereo.)

Other people drive clapped out cars with decent sound systems, and I want to try to listen to music if I am on a trip or even just a drive to work.

I have not seen many in the parking lots of audio shops, and there is no kit or history on what works... hence my questions.

Getting back on (the side) Topic of horns.
In this example 








If the PLD was a foot, then does the depth of the horn's flange somehow come into play? Or is the sound measured from the mouth of the horn, rather than the compression driver?

I am missing some nuance of the PLD being better when it is small.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Holmz said:


> If the PLD was a foot, then does the depth of the horn's flange somehow come into play? Or is the sound measured from the mouth of the horn, rather than the compression driver?
> 
> I am missing some nuance of the PLD being better when it is small.


The PLD for the horns is measured to the diaphragm in the compression driver as that is point where the sound begins its journey to the listeners ears.

12" PLD is just OK 

9" or less is getting good.

Your vehicle looks similar to a Hummer H1 so it is very wide and will never achieve a good PLD. 

Smaller PLD is better because it requires less processing to get it right, and the better it is before you apply processing to correct issues the better the result after processing.


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## mitchell0715 (Apr 11, 2015)

So after setting up a new DSP I think I figured out why my previous issue relating to sucking out occurred on one side, I think I had two channels mixed up backwards.

How do I know? A speaker that I had unplugged (so I thought) delivered a painful 2khz sine wave to my face at full volume LOL instant headache


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Eric Stevens said:


> The PLD for the horns is measured to the diaphragm in the compression driver as that is point where the sound begins its journey to the listeners ears.
> 
> 12" PLD is just OK
> 
> ...


Are we talking about PLD between one side's tweeter, mid-range and mid-bass?

If so then if all three (T/MR/MB) speakers are grouped onto the dash, then the PLD should be small? (And it cannot rainbow down either)


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Holmz said:


> Are we talking about PLD between one side's tweeter, mid-range and mid-bass?
> 
> If so then if all three (T/MR/MB) speakers are grouped onto the dash, then the PLD should be small? (And it cannot rainbow down either)


No. The distance between mid bass, midrange, and tweeter drivers on the same side/same channel is typically referred to as Center-to-Center spacing. Eric is referring to Path Length Differences between your listening position (ear location) and the Left and Right speakers.

Horn installs & kickpanel midbass installs are almost impossible in right-hand drive vehicles due to the pedal orientation. The compression driver for the driver's side horn will typically or ideally need to be right where the accelerator pedal mechanism is.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> No. The distance between mid bass, midrange, and tweeter drivers on the same side/same channel is typically referred to as Center-to-Center spacing. Eric is referring to Path Length Differences between the Left and Right sides.
> 
> Horn installs & kickpanel midbass installs are almost impossible in right-hand drive vehicles due to the pedal orientation. The compression driver for the driver's side horn will typically or ideally need to be right where the accelerator pedal mechanism is.


Yes I was referring to the PLD between left and right speakers.

For right hand drive cars horns work quite well in most instances


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

bbfoto said:


> No. The distance between mid bass, midrange, and tweeter drivers on the same side/same channel is typically referred to as Center-to-Center spacing. Eric is referring to Path Length Differences between your listening position (ear location) and the Left and Right speakers.
> 
> Horn installs & kickpanel midbass installs are almost impossible in right-hand drive vehicles due to the pedal orientation. The compression driver for the driver's side horn will typically or ideally need to be right where the accelerator pedal mechanism is.


Thanks I must have gotten confused with the Honda pictures with the red and yellow lines... showing Centre-to-centre spacing.

...But to be fair the thread is about kick panels, so I guess it follows along


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Eric Stevens said:


> Yes I was referring to the PLD between left and right speakers.
> 
> For right hand drive cars horns work quite well in most instances


Thanks. Yeah, it all depends on the specific vehicle and the design of the horn body + size & placement/orientation of the compression driver. IME, overall it's usually a PITA in most right-hand drive vehicles due to limited placement options for midbass drivers in the driver's side kick panel in combination with placing the horn. 

I think that for our Aussie friend _and his specific vehicle & wants/needs_, he'd do better with something like a pair of Illusion Audio C3 CX or Audiofrog GS42 in 1.5L sealed dash pods with the speakers as close to the base of the A-pillars as possible and angled so they are firing up on the same axis/parallel to the a-pillar supports.

Then add 6.5"-8" midbass in well-treated doors, and a subwoofer wherever it will fit. In that way he can keep it more of a 2-way front + subwoofer active system to simplify tuning.

Use DSP to dial it all in as best he can. If he wanted to gain back some depth, space, and ambience that's lost due to this type of install, he could try to implement some differential rear fill.

With horns or conventional drivers, the PLD's and listening position in Holmz' vehicle are not ideal either way. Besides maybe the overall SPL capability, I just don't see any benefit to using horns in this specific vehicle, and it might be a ton of extra work for no real reward compared to a conventional setup, IMO.

Sure it's a compromise...all car audio systems are in one way or another...but there are many similar setups that have worked extremely well...my old '90s Ford Aerostar extended van, KP's previous Acura, etc. ...Yeah, I realize that they are two completely different vehicles with huge advantages going to the physical dimensions and properties of the Acura, but still. 




Holmz said:


> Thanks I must have gotten confused with the Honda pictures with the red and yellow lines... showing Centre-to-centre spacing.
> 
> ...But to be fair the thread is about kick panels, so I guess it follows along


I believe that in "Patrick Bateman's" photos and illustrations he was in fact referencing the OVERALL differences in PLD optimization between Dash and Kick Panel locations as a whole, not the C-to-C spacing or the spacing between groups of drivers on the same side.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

bbfoto said:


> ...
> I think that for our Aussie friend _and his specific vehicle & wants/needs_, he'd do better with something like a pair of Illusion Audio C3 CX or Audiofrog GS42 in 1.5L sealed dash pods with the speakers as close to the base of the A-pillars as possible and angled so they are firing up on the same axis/parallel to the a-pillar supports.
> 
> Then add 6.5"-8" midbass in well-treated doors, and a subwoofer wherever it will fit. In that way he can keep it more of a 2-way front + subwoofer active system to simplify tuning.
> ...


I agree on avoiding horns, but I still appreciate Eric's thoughts on them.

I was leaning towards AF, but have acquired used ScanSpeak (tweeters, mid-range and mid-base, and used amps that are rated at 50W/100W/100W available respectively...
As the doors are pretty thin, I am going to try to get the SS/18wu into the dash...

So I intend on mashing them close together so that the centre-to-centre distance is minimised. Basically out near the edges of the dash aiming upwards for a windshield bounce, and then chuck a few sonex bats onto the dash.

And also a couple of subwoofers with 500W total available and the subs wired in parallel... (Right behind the front seats).

It is all fun and challenging, so at least if the install doesn't make for as brilliant of a set-up as a Lexus/etc, it should sound OK when the engine is off and I am looking at a map trying to figure where I am at and where I am going 
Basically I want to make it as good as I can, so I appreciate everyone who has tolerated my questions and helped to improve my understanding.

All the best!


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

bbfoto---I wasnt sugesting horns for his vehicle and he is not the OP. I was continuing the conversation and adressing the questions and comments. I agree with your suggestions for him.

I disagree with you and horns on RHD cars. For national level SQ competition you dont need midass in the kick in most cars, SUV would depend on the mouting location in the door. Thats one of the beauties of my HLCD, Mount them under the dash and upgrade the midbass in the facoy location with proper installation and you will have an excellent system without the fabrication of Pillars/dash and/or kic panels. Now if you want to go against the best in a money round I suggest you pull out all the stops but that certainly isnt necessary for excellent results. This hold even more weight if its a system that will be enjoyed while driving and never be used in competition.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Very good discussion - Subd for more learning.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

So I think I am reading the horns coming out between the knees and dash can image high.

I do not know what means for the things I have read about modifying sail panels and pillars for placing tweeters up high. Those high tweeters were advertised as helping to pull up the sound stage.

Does the height have anything to do with where the sound stage seems like it is from?
Or was SQnut right in that it is all in the tune?


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Holmz said:


> So I think I am reading the horns coming out between the knees and dash can image high.
> 
> I do not know what means for the things I have read about modifying sail panels and pillars for placing tweeters up high. Those high tweeters were advertised as helping to pull up the sound stage.
> 
> ...



If you have the installation basics done correctly, and tune it properly you can achieve a strong phantom image and sound stage. 

With the tweeters up high as you suggest it makes so the worse that happens is the height of the stage is the height of the speakers.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Eric Stevens said:


> If you have the installation basics done correctly, and tune it properly you can achieve a strong phantom image and sound stage.
> 
> With the tweeters up high as you suggest it makes so the worse that happens is the height of the stage is the height of the speakers.


I'm running underdash horns for the first time in almost eight years, and I'm just stunned by how they image. It's just crazy. 

I actually had to disable my DSP time alignment because it just wasn't necessary. I started out with a millisecond of delay (34cm), then found that every few days I was reducing it further and further. At some point, I just said "screw it", and disable the delay entirely.

And of course, the center image is just rock solid. That's always been a strength of HLCDs.


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## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

i have pld 40cm.i can't reduce it further


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I'm running underdash horns for the first time in almost eight years, and I'm just stunned by how they image. It's just crazy.
> 
> I actually had to disable my DSP time alignment because it just wasn't necessary. I started out with a millisecond of delay (34cm), then found that every few days I was reducing it further and further. At some point, I just said "screw it", and disable the delay entirely.
> ...


Please stop.
I am intrigued by the horn already, and you are not helping

However I am thinking about doing a set of bookshelf style speakers with horn for some relatives... So I like the idea, especially given that one can use silly-small Class-A amplifiers to drive a high-efficiency horn.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)




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## derickveliz (May 15, 2009)

I have Stevens mini horns and I love the way the bottom of the dash becomes an extension of the horns. 





D.


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## Roadbird (Jul 8, 2013)

A great thread.


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