# Alpine CDA-9887 with Imprint Kit (KTX-100EQ)



## mach_y

For a review of just the Alpine CDA-9887, please see here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17645

System diagram:

http://www.mspreef.com/imprint/diagram.jpg

Ok, now on with the Imprint kit (KTX-100EQ) eye candy:


























The program itself will NOT run without the computer hooked up to a powered on CDA-9887:


















































A scanned copy of the manual 

http://www.mspreef.com/imprint/ktx-100eq.pdf


Setup:

The setup is easy, the cables are long, so it is easily setup. The microphone base has a tripod mount, making placing it in the car in the right spots simple.

At this point, the results shown above are from only checking 1 location in the car (driver seat). There are no options in the program to choose multiple driver seat tests, nor can you just check the two front seats. When I did the multiple location test, and it required the microphone to be in the back, it came up with an error that my subwoofer system was incompatible. At that point I stopped playing for the night.

There are very few options for tuning in the program... what you see in the pictures is IT (3 preset response curves). You cannot pick your crossover points, nor the response. Additionally, I would have thought you could at least pick if you have front / rear speakers or a 3 way setup without rears (the deck has you make that choice with the DIP switch on the HU). However, as in the pictures, it only shows a front / rear / sub setup. I am not sure if the program picks up the 3-way setup switch setting from the HU. 

The bass level can still be controlled when MultEQ is turned on (0-15), and there are now bass (-7 to +7) and treble (-7 to +7) controls added as well. What frequencies those affect I have no idea.


Sound:
I listened to the linear curve today while driving to work. Although I normally prefer heavier midbass / bass, the notes were suprisingly more detailed / refined. I am not one to wax on with strange words for sound, but I am not sure how better to describe it. Instead of a bass note, I heard a drum note, or a bass guitar string being plucked. Certainly thumbs up there.

Imaging greatly improved. I believe both imaging and the above bass changes are a result of the time-alignment more than anything else, as that is not something I had turned on in my setup so far. I will be trying that though to compare. Soundstage was much better focused than before. 


Overall:
The sound is better than before, but still not where I want it to be. I think at this point I need to make all the level settings in my amps equal, then rescan the car, and try to see if that changes things. As is though, I am keeping MultEQ turned on, as it is better than the settings that can be done through the HU built-in controls.


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## dawgdan

Neat! Nice review.

Does the cable plug into the Ai-net port? That sucks to have to pull the HU and route another cable..


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## npdang

Check out my post on the h650. It seems the imprint kit is more limited than the h650? Just curious, are you running a 2-way frontstage? Perhaps it's assuming you are using the headunit xovers which is why it doesn't let you choose any.

Have you tried using the reference comp, and taking 4 or 5 measurements around the driver's headrest? 1 measurement isn't really sufficient for MultEQ. I don't understand at all why they want you to put the mic in those 6 random spots?


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## ErinH

Is there any way you can use this software/hardware as a standalone RTA? 

The user-friendliness seems like it would be better to use than RTA software. Especially the time correction function. I can never figure out how to do that with my software.


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## mach_y

npdang, yes, it seems to be more limited than the H650 review you posted. I wonder if the h650 software would work on the 9887? 

my diagram is posted... but, morel supremos and 4" midranges off a passive xover in the kicks, morel elate 9" midbass in doors, e12k sub in trunk. The xover settings are 250hz @ 24db HP on the midrange / tweeters, 63-250hz BP @ 24db on the midbass, and 63hz @ 24db LP on the sub.

The program tells you where to put the mic "Front Left", "Front Right", "Front", "Back". It also does not give you the option of taking multiple measurements at any of those locations... one scan per location. I could "trick" it and just keep it at the drivers seat regardless of what location it thinks the mic is in, but other than that, I don't see a way


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## mach_y

bikinpunk said:


> Is there any way you can use this software/hardware as a standalone RTA?
> 
> The user-friendliness seems like it would be better to use than RTA software. Especially the time correction function. I can never figure out how to do that with my software.


I actually plan on trying out the microphone in the standard mic port on my laptop tonight with TrueRTA... see what happens.

I agree with the time-correction function though. That is one part I am very happy with... check the graph showing the before and after time-response!


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## mach_y

dawgdan said:


> Neat! Nice review.
> 
> Does the cable plug into the Ai-net port? That sucks to have to pull the HU and route another cable..


The cable to the 9887 plugs into the front of the 9887. You actually have the face completely off when you plug in the cable and run the software.


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## npdang

Hey, maybe you should try tricking it? I don't think it cares.... just space the mic out maybe 2 or 3" along the driver seat. I do know that 1 location is going to give you non-optimal results. I'm just surprised they only give you 3 rather crappy looking target curves to pick from. I'm not surprised that you don't have time alignment/crossover/eq as that is probably integrated into the hu processor?


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## npdang

mach_y said:


> I actually plan on trying out the microphone in the standard mic port on my laptop tonight with TrueRTA... see what happens.
> 
> I agree with the time-correction function though. That is one part I am very happy with... check the graph showing the before and after time-response!


Unfortunately the "after" plots are just simulated. I took some actual measurements and they aren't nearly as nice as the simulations.  ... makes sense right since you don't see the program running another measurement after it applies the filter.


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## Arc

This is dissappointing to me.

I was hoping it would be a little better. At least imaging is much improved.

Do you get a Sub control still. That is my biggest concern.


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## oneiztoomany

i'm pretty content with the sq from my CDA-9887 without the imprint hooked up to it. do you think if thats the case i should hold off on this and focus on other things like deadening my doors properlly?


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## mach_y

Turns out the mic that comes with the kit is a pretty good one, as npdang discovered on testing the H650. 

It works fantastic just plugged into the mic port on my laptop, and trueRTA picked it up right away. I don't have time until this weekend, but then I'll use it to compare the graphs that the kit came up with and then generated.


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## Jeff in CO

Deleted...


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## Jeff in CO

Sorry for all posts as a newby and forgive me if it has already been covered....

I found this on Crutchfield regarding the Imprint Kit, $50 total cost sounds like a good deal.

Use it once and send it back
Making sound adjustments with the IMPRINT is a one-time process, so there's no need for you to keep the KTX-100EQ kit after you've used it. Normally, this kit is sold only to dealers, but Crutchfield wants to make this special offer to all you car audio "do-it-yourselfers" out there: 

Use the sound tuning kit and then return in to us within 30 days. We'll refund the purchase price, minus a $50 re-stocking fee — that's less than you'd pay a dealer to adjust the sound for you. On the other hand, if you decide not to use the kit, return it to us with the software unopened and we'll refund the full purchase price. 

What if you get a new car?
Just give us a call if you move your Alpine stereo to a new car. You've already paid to use the KTX-100EQ kit once, so we'll send it to you again free of charge so you can make adjustments for your new vehicle. As before, just return it within 30 days. 

I've had my 9887 for about 2 weeks and still adjusting/tweeking it. It sure does sound like the unit does have quite a bit of flexibility though.

Looking on Alpine's website, they also do recommend the PXE-H650 for the 9887 HU. They describe this unit as the next step to "really" improve the baseline.


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## JoeHemi57

in that case couldn't a few people that were local throw in on one kit and all use it?


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## shaunly

I was wondering if you could use the 9887 front output into the H650 processor and have the 650 tune your car and still have the 9887 EQ/crossover funtion to fine tune it to your taste.


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## OgreDave

whoa, a Shaun siting  what's next, Vinh after a 2year gun-totin break?


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## wdemetrius1

mach_y said:


> For a review of just the Alpine CDA-9887, please see here:
> 
> 
> Overall:
> The sound is better than before, but still not where I want it to be. I think at this point I need to make all the level settings in my amps equal, then rescan the car, and try to see if that changes things. As is though, I am keeping MultEQ turned on, as it is better than the settings that can be done through the HU built-in controls.



I'm curious to know have you adjusted your amps? If so, did you notice anything different?


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## npdang

Yeah you can...


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## Monologuist

SETUP:
Saab 9-3 hatchback, Alpine CDA-9887 head unit, Polk SR-6500 components (drivers in the stock front door locations firing horizontally, tweeters in the stock 3.5" speaker location in the corners of the dashboard firing up at the windshield), Polk SR-124 DVC 12" sub in a custom box in the hatch area, back against the back of the rear seats, firing towards the rear, powered by Alpine PDX-4.100 and 1.600 amps. Gains set at 12'oclock on both amps, amp crossovers off.

Just finished doing measurements for my new KTX-100eq....I did all 6 positions and nearly drained my entire battery...definitely keep this in mind id you want to analyze all 6 positions (the manual says 2 positions should be sufficient). I uploaded the settings to my head unit using the first two "response curves", "Reference" and "Reference with mid-comp"....the third option is "Linear". Not sure what these curves delineate to be honest, as I'm a bit new to tuning...

I was particularly careful about where I placed the mic within each position...the height was uniform for the most part using a tripod, but I did not do precise measurements of where the axes were relative to the speakers...in other words, for the front left seat, I just put the mic up around headrest level and roughly in the middle of the seat (of course your head moves depending on whether you are leaning back or sitting up straight while driving)...not sure if this will greatly affect the usefulness of the measurements...

Also, you are supposed to do it in as quiet an area as possible....where I live, there is always some street traffic outside...again, not sure if this negatively affected my measurements...my car is decently sound-treated so hopefully not.

After finishing and trying out my usual lineup of reference songs, the results were rather surprising. Previously I had tuned the system only using the T.A., crossovers, and very slight amount of parametric EQ. Comparing pre-multieq to post, post seemed very forward in the mids and highs and quite bass shy...soundstage was definitely drastically improved, but I found the overall sound a bit painful at loud volumes. Perhaps I am just used to hearing th system out of balance and just need o get used to what a well-tuned car sounds like? Anyway the results were similar to what the other reviewer said...the definition of isolated sounds was improved dramatically, nuances in the low-mids and mid-bass benefited a lot, but at the loss of visceral impact...Again perhaps I am just used to listening to a bass-hyped system, but I was definitely not getting much body-shaking bass from the Polk SR-124 sub in the hatch of my Saab 9-3 with the multieq on. I have to say at softer to moderate listening levels, the sound is 100% better, but the added definition and clarity seemed to push some more sibilant frequencies forward making it a bit bright at higher volumes. (I should mention that I have my tweeters firing up against the front windshield, so that is somewhat unavoidable, but my pre-multieq tuning did not emphasize this much in comparison. 

Now, from what I understand, the Multieq tuning from all 6 positions achieves a final profile of settings that is meant to be as optimal from each sitting position in the car. So I am wondering as was discussed earlier if it is possible to optimize from the driver's seat alone, which is obviously how I tuned things pre-multieq. Perhaps the qualities that I liked least about the sound post-multieq are a result of the compromises made to achieve settings that would benefit each listening position (that might explain the bass-shyness as I'm sure the levels that I have my sub at normally would severely compromise a listener in the rear seats which are touching the back of my subwoofer cabinet. I wonder if you did all the listening positions in the front driver seat as suggested earlier if it would eliminate these"compromises" or does the system make adjustments assuming that the mic is in the indicated positions, only?

BTW, I had my head unit's subwoofer level set at around 7/15 when doing the multieq tuning giving me room to boost the sub level...but doing so might create additional acoustic problems due to , say, overlapping bass frequencies between the sub and the component drivers in my front doors, right? In other words, the whole tuning relies on the levels of each speaker being at a particular point (as dictated by the setting on your amps), so raising or lowering the levels might render the T.A., EQ and crossover settings dialed in by the imprint system, useless. Likewise, simply boosting the bass adjustment that is available post-multieq might do similarly? If the process allowed just a few points of user customization DURING the tuning, as opposed to after, the whole system might be much more effective, since all the tuning parameters are presumably interdependent? 

I think I will give it a day of listening, and if I am still not satisfied with the sound, I will experiment with new measurements that are taken only in the driver's seat to see what effect that has. Unfortunately the documentation is as mentioned, useless..

Oh yes, I think someone might have asked this already, but I am a little confused as well about whether the system automatically detects what type of speaker setup you have..I have only a pair of 2-way components in the front and the single 12" sub in the hatch...so is the software able to determine what type of speaker is attached to each channel of the head unit, or is it assuming a particular configuration? I think I had my tweeters on the "LR" and RR" channels and the drivers on the "LF" and "RF" channels...hopefully the system knows this or else it could set the crossovers the wrong way and fry your speakers. I am assuming for now that the system assumes whatever you have chosen already on the 9887 (3-way or F/R/Sub). If anyone could tell me if they know what the correct configuration is supposed to be in terms of channel-to-speaker for 3-way (1 set of 2-way comps +sub), would be much appreciated..was always confused about this, as intuitively I would think LF and RF should be the tweeters and LR RR would be the drivers.


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## oneiztoomany

thanks for the review, i'm not sure if i am overly eager to add this software to my 9887 based off what i have read to date.

i have a similiar setup to you monolguist in regards to having my tweeters firing towards my windshield and too much brightness is definately a concern for me. i also like my music overly bass heavy.


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## tec3001

Just got my KTX-100EQ and I installed on my PC per the instructions. After I tried to run the program. I received an Open Port Error, and the softaware closes.

Any suggestions??


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## oneiztoomany

does anyone know if my Ipod is hooked up to this HU whether it should be getting charged at the same time?


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## npdang

Yes, yes, and yes! Check out my thread on the h650 in the general forum.

But to summarize:

1. Put all the mic positions in the front driver seat will eliminate compromises in tuning for the other seats

2. Yes, it's ok!!! to raise your sub level and/or change the xover points AFTER tuning. Leave the sub level adjustment at 0 beforehand.

3. Definitely lower the tweeter levels after the multeq tuning, otherwise it will be too aggressive.

4. No, it doesn't autodetect what type of speaker is on what output. I had a hell of a time figuring out which way to hook things up to get it correct. I have no idea for the 9887, but for the h650 it's Front1 for tweets and Front2 for mids, and sub for sub. Deviation from that will sound very nasty.


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## npdang

oneiztoomany said:


> thanks for the review, i'm not sure if i am overly eager to add this software to my 9887 based off what i have read to date.
> 
> i have a similiar setup to you monolguist in regards to having my tweeters firing towards my windshield and too much brightness is definately a concern for me. i also like my music overly bass heavy.


If you're expecting it to do all the work for you, you'll probably be dissapointed. However, the MultEQ functionality gives you a very, very good baseline to work with and can sound fantastic with just a few minor manual adjustments.


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## rsvchad

NP-

From what I have seen from the vague KTX-100EQ owners manual. The PXE-H650 is considerably more capable. It appears that we don't have any X-over adjustment after tuning nor do we have any EQ (except for bass and treble). It appears we get subwoofer level along with the aformentioned bass and treble control. No three bands of parametric EQ after the fact. I feel... let down.


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## oneiztoomany

oneiztoomany said:


> does anyone know if my Ipod is hooked up to this HU whether it should be getting charged at the same time?


bump on this question...


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## npdang

rsvchad said:


> NP-
> 
> From what I have seen from the vague KTX-100EQ owners manual. The PXE-H650 is considerably more capable. It appears that we don't have any X-over adjustment after tuning nor do we have any EQ (except for bass and treble). It appears we get subwoofer level along with the aformentioned bass and treble control. No three bands of parametric EQ after the fact. I feel... let down.


Don't you get all the tuning capability in the 9887 hu though?


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## rsvchad

npdang said:


> Don't you get all the tuning capability in the 9887 hu though?


I believe, and someone correct me if I'm incorrect, that after IMPRINT has it's way with the 9887 we are left with bass, treble and subwoofer level only for additional tuning. From what I've seen, again the manual is pretty vague, we do not have access to x-over points, mid/hi level adjustment or any form of multi-band eq.


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## Babs

mach_y said:


> ....As is though, I am keeping MultEQ turned on, as it is better than the settings that can be done through the HU built-in controls.


So my stupid question for the day... So I get the impression you lose some tuning capability with the 9887 by itself?? 

In other words, regardless of the Imprint auto-tuning, is there 'more' EQ or TA parameters that aren't available with just the stock 9887 by itself?

... Well I think I found the answer to my question.. Gotta love the quick reference at Crutchfield's Hands on Research... 5 band parametric or 7 band graphic, vs. "500 points across the spectrum".

So it appears the Imprint kit basically taps into a completely different EQ processor within the 9887 that requires the kit, otherwise it's just the 5 or 7 band.

I'd love to hear a head-to-head of the 9887 vs the H650.


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## rsvchad

oneiztoomany said:


> does anyone know if my Ipod is hooked up to this HU whether it should be getting charged at the same time?


Yes it charges the iPod.


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## oneiztoomany

rsvchad said:


> Yes it charges the iPod.


i guess i have some tech difficulties then because mine is definately not getting charged.


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## mach_y

npdang said:


> Don't you get all the tuning capability in the 9887 hu though?


Nope  This really ticks me off actually. There are NO choices except for the 3 profiles in the imprint software for tuning. Also, once MultEQ is turned on, in the HU, the only tuning you can use are: treble, bass, subwoofer level, fade left to right. NOTHING else


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## Babs

So your choice is some level of manual tuning, or rely on MultEQ but no tweaking once it's run. I'll have to read up, but I'm assuming or hoping anyway it at least allows manual tweaking when running MultEQ.


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## dawgdan

Methinks it might be worthwhile to get a small add-on EQ after using Imprint.. just to help smooth out any FR bumps and tailor the sound just a little more.


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## mach_y

Babs said:


> So your choice is some level of manual tuning, or rely on MultEQ but no tweaking once it's run. I'll have to read up, but I'm assuming or hoping anyway it at least allows manual tweaking when running MultEQ.


no manual tuning after using multeq, except for what I already stated


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## npdang

Sounds like then, you would have the same amount of tuning as the h650 which also only has mid/treble/bass adjustment.


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## oneiztoomany

dawgdan said:


> Methinks it might be worthwhile to get a small add-on EQ after using Imprint.. just to help smooth out any FR bumps and tailor the sound just a little more.


something about needing to have a secondary EQ to fine tune what Imprint does just doesn't sound right. 

sort of defeats the purpose if you ask me. at that point aren't you basically "undoing" what the Imprint software has suggested?


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## mach_y

npdang said:


> Sounds like then, you would have the same amount of tuning as the h650 which also only has mid/treble/bass adjustment.


no, not the same amount.

H650:
in the imprint software, you can change the xover frequency, you have 4 target curves to select from, and after that basically have a 3 band parametric eq.

CDA-9887:

in the imprint software, you have 3 target curves to select from. Period, end of story. It doesn't even tell you what xover points were selected.

On the unit itself, you have a "treble" "bass" "fade right / left" and "subwoofer" level. I have no idea what frequencies are affected by the "treble" and "bass" controls, nor can I pick what they are. The subwoofer level control merely affects the entire subwoofer output.


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## npdang

That really sucks... Alpine is the king of gimping their products. They always make something that is shy of what you really need, when adding that feature would cost them almost nothing.


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## oneiztoomany

well they need to leave room for improvement so that people will buy next years model!!


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## rsvchad

oneiztoomany said:


> i guess i have some tech difficulties then because mine is definately not getting charged.



From Alpine's site:

"Now you can maximize your in-car iPod experience! Just one simple cable that goes directly into the all Alpine Full Speed Connection for iPod compatible head units. With no additional box required, directly connect your iPod for full control, full sound at full speed with an easy-to-use search interface. You have control right from the head unit at full speed. Enhanced features include faster data transmission for quick and easy file navigation, as well as full-tag artist, album, song, genre, podcast, and composer information displayed directly on the head unit,* all while charging the iPod battery* (available on the CDE-9870, CDE-9873, CDE-9881, CDA-9883, CDA-9885, CDA-9887, iDA-X001, IVA-D105, IVA-W205). Alpine’s exclusive Percentage Search allow you to toggle quickly through your Playlist, Arist, or Album on your iPod. Use "Mix All" to shuffle your music. Alpine Full Speed connectivity offers an improved integrated solution that supercharges your music."


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## toxic tuan

Anybody thought about running both the 9887 and the 650? Auto on the 650 and fine tune with the 9887...but independent from each other?


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## Rbsarve

npdang said:


> That really sucks... Alpine is the king of gimping their products. They always make something that is shy of what you really need, when adding that feature would cost them almost nothing.


Yeah, but Pioneer is not far behind with ther stupid crossovers.

I'm sticking to my 9861+701 so far.


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## matdotcom2000

Man if I could just hook up the KTX-100EQ to a computer without actually hooking it up to the headunit I would really be interested in one.


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## oneiztoomany

rsvchad said:


> From Alpine's site:
> 
> "Now you can maximize your in-car iPod experience! Just one simple cable that goes directly into the all Alpine Full Speed Connection for iPod compatible head units. With no additional box required, directly connect your iPod for full control, full sound at full speed with an easy-to-use search interface. You have control right from the head unit at full speed. Enhanced features include faster data transmission for quick and easy file navigation, as well as full-tag artist, album, song, genre, podcast, and composer information displayed directly on the head unit,* all while charging the iPod battery* (available on the CDE-9870, CDE-9873, CDE-9881, CDA-9883, CDA-9885, CDA-9887, iDA-X001, IVA-D105, IVA-W205). Alpine’s exclusive Percentage Search allow you to toggle quickly through your Playlist, Arist, or Album on your iPod. Use "Mix All" to shuffle your music. Alpine Full Speed connectivity offers an improved integrated solution that supercharges your music."


my battery life bar doesn't flash when hooked up to the CDA-9887 like it does when its hooked up to my computer which is what makes me think that it is not charging.

can anyone else tell whether the battery life bar flashes when plugged into their CDA-9887?


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## skylar112

oneiztoomany said:


> my battery life bar doesn't flash when hooked up to the CDA-9887 like it does when its hooked up to my computer which is what makes me think that it is not charging.
> 
> can anyone else tell whether the battery life bar flashes when plugged into their CDA-9887?


I know its charging, because for the whole month of september, I didn't take my ipod out. And I traveled quite a bit that month. So I would think that it has to be charging.


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## Babs

matdotcom2000 said:


> Man if I could just hook up the KTX-100EQ to a computer without actually hooking it up to the headunit I would really be interested in one.


... That's where the pxe-h650 comes in. Just send it any strong, clean, full-range L/R line-level signal via RCA's and you've got tunes. For that matter, just send it iPod lossless. Can do the same thing with either the PXE unit or the 3sixty.2, but betting on the PXE's SQ though I haven't read a direct comparison yet.


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## oneiztoomany

skylar112 said:


> I know its charging, because for the whole month of september, I didn't take my ipod out. And I traveled quite a bit that month. So I would think that it has to be charging.


next time you are in your car can you try to remember to see if the battery life bar is flashing?

i thought that is what indicated that it was charging...


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## skylar112

oneiztoomany said:


> next time you are in your car can you try to remember to see if the battery life bar is flashing?
> 
> i thought that is what indicated that it was charging...


It doesn't flash, neither did the 9857 I owned or the 880 I don't think.

But I do know for that time, I didn't have to take it out at all to charge it. So I'm pretty sure it charges.


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## Slick

Still might not be charging, alot of ipod adapters will simply use thier own power and not use the ipod's, not technically charging but they keep the ipod at current battery state..not sure about this alpine but it's pretty common.


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## oneiztoomany

Slick said:


> Still might not be charging, alot of ipod adapters will simply use thier own power and not use the ipod's, not technically charging but they keep the ipod at current battery state..not sure about this alpine but it's pretty common.


this seems to be more the case in my situation.


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## Monologuist

So after living with my first MultiEQ tuning attempt for a few days, I have to say I am pretty impressed. Even with the "compromised" tuning (compromised for the betterment of all 4 seating positions), I think it would have taken me quite a long time to achieve what the MultiEQ did. Switching it on and off to compare it with my manual tuning that was primarily achieved using the crossovers and T.A. (not much EQ), at first the difference was so stark that I still gravitated to my tuning b/c I'm so used to it. But now, I can say without a doubt that the MultiEQ tuning is light years ahead of my manual tuning. It's pretty impressive how much sonic information this system has brought out of obscurity. The soundstage it has achieved is excellent, and the fequency response seems very flat. As was mentioned, you should set the subwoofer level on "0" before running it so you have room to boost it if you find it bass-shy(I think most would). I had mine set at "6", and I found that raising it up to 12-15 really helped things. With it set up like that, the overall Multieq tuning sounds brilliant as of now. On some material, there is a tad bit of treble over-emphasis. I guess you could compensate by lowering the gain on your tweeter amp channels, or you could tweek the "treble" setting that is now available, post-multiEQ. If there is any other way to adjust the treble levels, please advise. But if you are able to boost your sub levels post-mutiEQ, I think it may not be totally necessary. I think part of why it was sounding harsh at first was that I was turning the overall volume to high b/c of the bass-shyness. I am looking forward to trying a tuning with only the driver's seat...Also curious to try the "Linear" curve. I have the two other curves in the 9887's memory right now...to be honest I can't hear that much of a difference between them. How would the "Linear" curve sound compared to the other two?

I'll probably try to be more exact about my mic. locations next time; try to make it as close to my driver's side ear-height, try to situate the mic. as close to where my head would be while driving.

Anyway, mainly I'm just following up to say that the results may sound drastically different than your present manual tuning, and you may not be convinced from the getgo. But after living with it for a few days and referencing several recordings that I know very well, now switching the MultiEQ off reveals a sound that I can not believe I had previously found to be satisfactory.

IF you're really experienced and adept at using manual EQ, crossover settings and T.A., you might arrive at a similar result, but I imagine it would take you dozens of hours to get it as good as the MultiEQ. So for someone like myself that is pretty new to car stereo tuning, it's indispensable. I'd love to hear what an experienced tuner would say about it and how long it would take them to get it to that point...


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## oneiztoomany

thanks for the review monoloquist, i am a total newb at tuning. so maybe i should give this technology a shot.


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## Monologuist

To the OP:
When you re-measured things all in the driver's seat, did you just leave the mic in the same position? Or did you move the mic forwards/backwards/right/left, higher, lower within the same seating location? 

Once again, I depleted my car battery trying to do all 6 measurements. How many measurements are really necessary? (the manual claims 2 is enough)


----------



## Jeff in CO

Glad to hear that this system really does help the novice fine tune the system better! I just received my 100EQ unit from Crutchfield and hope to try it out today. I am dissappointed to hear now that I will be losing my 5 and 7 band EQ after running the process. I do like the "ability" to fine tune if necessary.

Question: I do have an older Kenwood EQ that I could fit under the deck. Some people have indicated that the older technology would weaken the overall sound quality of the system. Wouldn't the 100EQ compensate for any deficiencies of the older EQ? It sure would be nice to have the rewards of MultiEQ along with a second unit for flexibility.

Finally, can I assume I can re-run the process over and over again...example (add or change a component in the system).


----------



## Rbsarve

Well, there is two options for you Jeff, you can:

A) Trust an advice from a random person that has axess to a keybord, who may or may not have experience with what you mention.

or 

B) Since the imprint is a very new piece of electronics, and you have the Kenwood, you might actually spend an extra half an hour in the car hooking it up, thus gaining your own experience on the matter.


----------



## ck279

Has anyone experienced the "Port Open Error" code while installing the software for the KTX-100EQ? 

I have tried installing it on a laptop as well as another desktop PC just to see what happens. In both instances the same error is displayed and allows me to not finish the install.


Thanks for any help.


Carl


----------



## Jeff in CO

Rbsarve said:


> Well, there is two options for you Jeff, you can:
> 
> A) Trust an advice from a random person that has axess to a keybord, who may or may not have experience with what you mention.
> 
> or
> 
> B) Since the imprint is a very new piece of electronics, and you have the Kenwood, you might actually spend an extra half an hour in the car hooking it up, thus gaining your own experience on the matter.


Good point.......and well taken. Thanks!


----------



## rsvchad

ck279 said:


> Has anyone experienced the "Port Open Error" code while installing the software for the KTX-100EQ?
> 
> I have tried installing it on a laptop as well as another desktop PC just to see what happens. In both instances the same error is displayed and allows me to not finish the install.
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help.
> 
> 
> Carl


Do you have all components hooked up, or are you just trying to open the software by itself?


----------



## ck279

I did not have the computer connected to the other components yet. In the manual it did not state to hook up the other assemblies until after installation of the software.

But....from direct experience....do you know that to be the issue here?


Thanks for your help!


Carl


----------



## ck279

Nevermind. I called Alpine this morning and spoke with the tech dept. You are absolutely right. That error will come up if all the other cables (except the one going to the radio) are not installed. 

Thanks for the input before!


Carl


----------



## oneiztoomany

Slick said:


> Still might not be charging, alot of ipod adapters will simply use thier own power and not use the ipod's, not technically charging but they keep the ipod at current battery state..not sure about this alpine but it's pretty common.


verified with the shop that i purchased the 9887 from that my Ipod is definately not getting charged. they said they have experienced some older model Alpine HUs which also had the same issue. they are going to order a brand new one for me to swap out to see if that fixes the problem.


----------



## skylar112

oneiztoomany said:


> verified with the shop that i purchased the 9887 from that my Ipod is definately not getting charged. they said they have experienced some older model Alpine HUs which also had the same issue. they are going to order a brand new one for me to swap out to see if that fixes the problem.


I think it charges the ipod. I remember listening to my ipod for a while I checked the battery bar it was half full. I plugged it in, went for a 2 hour drive, took it out, and the battery bar is full. So in that instance I think it charges.


----------



## oneiztoomany

skylar112 said:


> I think it charges the ipod. I remember listening to my ipod for a while I checked the battery bar it was half full. I plugged it in, went for a 2 hour drive, took it out, and the battery bar is full. So in that instance I think it charges.


yeah mine is defective i guess for that particular feature. everything other than that seems to be operating fine...


----------



## Doug

I purchased the KTX-100EQ from Crutchfield, and noticed the software was already open! We'll see what they say when I return it!



Jeff in CO said:


> Use the sound tuning kit and then return in to us within 30 days. We'll refund the purchase price, minus a $50 re-stocking fee — that's less than you'd pay a dealer to adjust the sound for you. On the other hand, if you decide not to use the kit, return it to us with the software unopened and we'll refund the full purchase price.


----------



## Doug

Did not see this.... URL please?



Jeff in CO said:


> Looking on Alpine's website, they also do recommend the PXE-H650 for the 9887 HU. They describe this unit as the next step to "really" improve the baseline.


----------



## MidnightCE

Question -

9887. Rca jacks or rca pigtails?


----------



## dawgdan

Jacks.


----------



## NewBostonite

tec3001 said:


> Just got my KTX-100EQ and I installed on my PC per the instructions. After I tried to run the program. I received an Open Port Error, and the softaware closes.
> 
> Any suggestions??


Yup. I got the same error. First, yes, I agree, the documentation in the "user" manual sucks. Not a lot of information there.

First, go to the Imprint CD and navigate to the Driver folder and run USB_setup.exe, with everything plugged in and ready to go. That will install the proper driver so that the unit attached to the USB port will be correctly identified.

Second, make sure that you have the head unit ON before firing up the Imprint software, or you will get another error. Again, this was trial and error for me as the documentation made no mention of this.

Hope that gets you going! The results were AMAZING! And I like a lot of bass too...it did require me to crank up the gain and crossover point on my subwoofer, but compared to how I had manually adjusted everything, the software really did a great job correcting the soundstage and warming the mids and highs...a bit of tweaking on the bass and I LOVE IT!


----------



## MidnightCE

dawgdan said:


> Jacks.


Pass.


Thanks.


----------



## dawgdan

MidnightCE said:


> Pass.
> 
> 
> Thanks.


No room? It's a nice unit.


----------



## ck279

What do you mean by this, "Second, make sure that you have the head unit ON before firing up the Imprint software, or you will get another error."

The faceplate must be removed for the plug..so how is the head unit on at that point? 
Do you mean to have the key to ACC? (as opposed to no key at all)


I have still not gotten mine to work. After the "port open error" now I just have a "communication error". I made sure to do things in the absolute correct order. 


Thanks,


Carl







NewBostonite said:


> Yup. I got the same error. First, yes, I agree, the documentation in the "user" manual sucks. Not a lot of information there.
> 
> First, go to the Imprint CD and navigate to the Driver folder and run USB_setup.exe, with everything plugged in and ready to go. That will install the proper driver so that the unit attached to the USB port will be correctly identified.
> 
> Second, make sure that you have the head unit ON before firing up the Imprint software, or you will get another error. Again, this was trial and error for me as the documentation made no mention of this.
> 
> Hope that gets you going! The results were AMAZING! And I like a lot of bass too...it did require me to crank up the gain and crossover point on my subwoofer, but compared to how I had manually adjusted everything, the software really did a great job correcting the soundstage and warming the mids and highs...a bit of tweaking on the bass and I LOVE IT!


----------



## rsvchad

ck279 said:


> Do you mean to have the key to ACC? (as opposed to no key at all)


Yes, power must be on to the head unit. Ignition in ACC or ON position.


----------



## MidnightCE

dawgdan said:


> No room? It's a nice unit.


I do, I have a 9855. But i cant "flush" mount it without pigtails.

i played with one at the store, looks and feels older than the 9855.. and much older than the 7998


----------



## Jeff in CO

Doug said:


> Did not see this.... URL please?


Try this URL:

http://www.alpine.com/e/index.html?reFlag=stop

I then clicked on the "imprint sound" button that opens up a popup window. Then click on "Demo". Within that demo they did make a comment that the 650 can also be used to further refine the imprint.


----------



## Jeff in CO

ck279 said:


> What do you mean by this, "Second, make sure that you have the head unit ON before firing up the Imprint software, or you will get another error."
> 
> The faceplate must be removed for the plug..so how is the head unit on at that point?
> Do you mean to have the key to ACC? (as opposed to no key at all)
> 
> 
> I have still not gotten mine to work. After the "port open error" now I just have a "communication error". I made sure to do things in the absolute correct order.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Carl


I also got an error at the start up. The way that worked for me was to have the computer off, make all the wired connections as well as the vehicle ACC in the "on" position. Then I booted up the computer to allow it to recognized the Alpine and then it worked.

As an FYI - This program is NOT compatible with Windows Vista. I had to use my kid's desktop in the garage to make it work.


----------



## ck279

Hey Jeff in CO,


Thanks for the input. I finally got it to work. My 1st problem was not having the USB connected to the PC when doing the install. Then I did not have the radio on when connecting the cable to it.

Now it all seems like stupid mistakes, but the first time around can be tricky if everything isn't just-so.

That sucks it doesn't work with Vista. I also had to improvise...pulled my car as close as I could to the house and just ran the cable out the window.



Now that it is tuned I have mixed feelings. I like the high soundstage, I like the clarity of voices. I really like how the treble/highs are crisp and clear, and I do NOT have the sharp "SSSS" / lisp effect on vocals. That has been a combo that has eluded me.

I do NOT like how the imaging is one sided. The vast majority of the sound, particularly the vocals seems like it is coming from just the tweeter closest to me....just that one point. There is definitely no "high, centered on the dash" effect here. Rather than being immersed in total area of sound it sounds very localized and precise in its origin.


Lastly, I as very curious as to why the Imprint software would have you measure with yourself OUTSIDE the car. The acoustics change drastically with a person (or persons) present. Most notably my leg being directly in the way of the bottom driver. It just seems weird that such a precise calibration set-up is used when the environment will change so much with people present.



Carl


----------



## Babs

So if you sneak and stay in the car, will it kick you out?


----------



## Jeff in CO

No doubt that the soundstage has improved. As others have noted, the bass is a little on the light side so I am going to try to increase the gain just a little on the sub amp. When I did the first imprint, I only used the front seat position. As an experiment, I have installed my old EQ and am currently re-measuring the truck in the front, driver's position again. I hope it will allow a little more flexibility.

Overall, I do like the imprint and it does get the truck setup much more precise than what I came up with on my own. I don't quite understand the difference between the seating positions and if I need to do each one individually (this is what I am guessing) or just a few. Also, they do have another selection that allows the imprint to be done for the entire vehicle all at once. Again, don't know the difference yet.

Lastly, I don't know if I do the front seat position and then come back on another day to do a few more seats, if they cumulatively build on each other or it wipes all previous imprints and only does that new seat position.

Still learning but will need to get it figured out by the end of the week in order to get my $200 back from Crutchfield.


----------



## ck279

Below is my full review. I am an MR2 owner and originally posted this on an MR2 audio forum. Also, I am in no way the audiofile that some on this board are. 







I thought I would share my thoughts on the new Alpine IMPRINT system being that I have installed it and spent some time listening to the results. 

System consists of:

Alpine PDX 4.100 amplifier (100W x 4) RMS (bench tested @ 118W x 4
Alpine CDA-9887 head unit
Alpine KTX-100EQ vehicle acoustical calibration module
Infinity Refernence 60002i 6-1/2" 2-way component speakers
Bazooka BT6028DVC 6-1/2" DVC tube subwoofer (non amplified)


Having always been into car audio over the years I decided I wanted to put together a well balanced, superbly sounding system. Other systems were too bass heavy, poorly concieved budget systems, or just not tuned well.

If you are not familiar with any of the Alpine components above, please reference www.alpine1.com as they are all new 2007 items. The Infinities are older...maybe 4 years or so. The Bazooka tube is a dual 8 ohm wired in parallel to achieve a 4 ohm mono load.


In short, I highly recommend this set-up (particularly for the MKII MR2 owner. The PDX amplifier was chosen not because I wanted to stay "All Alpine", but rather because of it's diminutive size. I thought it would fit easily under the passenger seat. It fits, but not easily. To be precise it is just a smidge too tall. The bottom of the seat hits it slightly and care must be taken if you have the slide the seat forward or back so as to minimize the impact on the amp. It doesn't hit much, and the damage is just cosmetic, but anyone considering this amp (or the PDX 4.150) should know this.

The KTX-100EQ is not needed to achieve great sound quality from the CDA-9887. The 9887 is, in my estimation, a superb head unit with a spec sheet to please. I had run it for a few weeks without the MultiEQ tuning and I thought it sounded very good. Using just basic (and minimal) EQ adjusting and adjusting the time delay the system sounded pretty darn good. But I was anxious to see what the MutiEQ could do! Was it hype? Could it make THAT much of a difference? Would it be a good difference? 

With the KTX-100EQ installed and the acoustic parameters of my car uploaded to the 9887 I can absolutely recommend it. It sets the time alignment, the crossovers and the gains. In addition it reads the frequency response of each speaker and corrects for peaks and valleys. This works to correct for imperfect speakers and bring them closer to producing a truly flat frequency response. 

The highs:
-Dramatically raises the soundstage
-Clean, crisp vocals and highs
-Ability to balance exellent treble response without "S" sounds in vocals sounding lispy or shrill or extended
-Crossover points seem well chosen

In a very short time I have heard a number of things in various songs that I have never, ever heard before. One track I stopped dead in my tracks and went back to hear it again because I just could not believe that I had never heard such a (now) prominet sound. That just made me smile! To me that is great audio when you discover new componentsof music you think you know. Its so cool. What is great about the precision of this set-up is that instruments sound LIKE instruments. A pluck of the guitar SOUNDS like a pluck of the guitar. Likewise with a snare drum or any other instrument. The refinement is there. It actually takes some getting used to if you are used to just powerful, in your face, EQ'd to high heaven, music. It may not give you that "oompth" that you are used to, but give it time and appreciate the precision you never knew was there.


The lows:
-Sub level is set very conservatively. I do not get strong response until I have maxed out the sub level control on the radio. It leaves me wanting. And the sub can go much further. It just sets this level too low for me (and I'm NO basshead either)
-Isolated, directed sound.

Let me ellaborate on that last one because it is rather annoying. In short, mine was calibrated such that when I listen to a song it sounds like the vocals and treble are coming directly from the driver side tweeter. Rather than an enveloping, full, centered-on-dash soundstange it seems to beam directly at me from one small location where the tweeter is located. Some songs are more pronounced than others, but on the whole I thought it would place the soundstage in a more neutral location. 


Now I have little doubt that with more tuning/different mic locations/ and different settings changed that the isolated sound can be alleviated. This was the first tune on the unit so I don't judge it soley on this outcome. Plus I have read other threads on car audio sites which mention nothing of limited imaging (coming from people who take it much more seriously than myself).

Next on the list are new components. Most likely Focal 165 K2P's. I spent many an hour with these at a audio/visual place I worked and they are indeed fine automotive speakers.
The Bazooka tube is O.K. That will be replaced in time with some kind of custom, albeit minimilistic 8" sub. The Bazooka while great for the money cannot offer a true musical experience.



Pictures.....







































Carl


----------



## Babs

Interesting.. I'd bet it's been posted but I wonder if anyone has done any before / after freq plots at the drivers seat to see the difference in the Imprint kit on their FR. I think most are so very used to that car-audio mid-bass sound, it's very noticeable when it's removed to a more flat "sq" sound.. I'd still probably set my sub level a wee bit low to allow for some manual "bump" if I wanted it though.


----------



## npdang

Nice review Carl. Consider a step up for less money with Focal's 6w4311b and a pair of Seas neo alum. tweeters. I never understood why, but Focal's markup on their car line is significantly higher than their raw driver line and not built to the same standard. The Seas neo is the lowest distortion compact tweeter I've measured.


----------



## npdang

Babs said:


> Interesting.. I'd bet it's been posted but I wonder if anyone has done any before / after freq plots at the drivers seat to see the difference in the Imprint kit on their FR. I think most are so very used to that car-audio mid-bass sound, it's very noticeable when it's removed to a more flat "sq" sound.. I'd still probably set my sub level a wee bit low to allow for some manual "bump" if I wanted it though.


I have...


----------



## Babs

npdang said:


> I have...


I thought you did.. ... finally found it:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22008&highlight=pxe-h650


----------



## oneiztoomany

its definately amazing how much this software flattens out the curves. is that really beneficial?


----------



## Babs

oneiztoomany said:


> its definately amazing how much this software flattens out the curves. is that really beneficial?


yep.. very much


----------



## npdang

oneiztoomany said:


> its definately amazing how much this software flattens out the curves. is that really beneficial?


It's fake... the "after" is not a real measurement, it's just the estimated/calculated response. I think I did post a real after measurement that showed decent improvements, but it wasn't ruler flat like that fake Alpine picture. I don't think I posted a before, but you can see that in the Alpine shots as those were actual measurements.


----------



## Babs

You did.. right above that pic I posted in your first post in that thread, though they were separate plots of drivers... 

Couldn't tell if you did a full combined plot before/after?


----------



## jobski

do you need to have an active setup (active xovers) to utilize the imprint? or passive is ok?


----------



## Jeff in CO

I've now done about 5 separate imprints from various positions and found that if I do the front driver's seat and then do the passenger's seat, the driver's imprint (the first run) is deleted and replaced with the new position.

Also, I tried out the "all" position but after listening, it seems like there is a little bit of sacrifice for everyone on the soundstage. I found myself moving to the center of the truck to get a better balance on the music. The soundstage DID improve from stock position, definitely, but for my needs, I feel that the driver's position is the best setup (for me).

I did add my old Kenwood EQ and it does allow a little more flexibility on the highs and I do like the addition. Just being able to refine a little more than "treble" and "bass" makes the addition worthwhile.

My only question now before sending it back to Crutchfield, why does the program produce 3 separate curves but only allow 2 of them to be sent to the head unit? Which two curves have most been sending? After sending the first two curves (excluding the linear curve) and closing the program, I can't access the last run information. It just prompts me to run the entire imprint process again (another 35 minutes or so).

Overall though, it's been a great improvement.


----------



## deputydog95

I have a few questions. I tried the unit out last night, and I am not happy with it so far. I am probably doing something wrong. 

The car is a convertible with unusable back seats. I have a set of Diamond Audio components in the front and a pair of JL subwoofers in the rear, where the seat bottoms used to be. I am not using any rear mid/high speakers. I am using two JL amplifiers to power the system (one for the subs and the other for the front components).

Should this unit be able to work with a system that has no rear speakers?

Do all the microphone positions have to be at head level?

How exact do the microphone positions need to be? It seems difficult to get it at head height in some of these locations.

Do the x-overs on both amplifiers need to be turned off? The directions say to only turn the subwoofer amplifier x-over off.

Does it matter where the subwoofer gain on the head unit was set prior to tuning? Is it recommended to set it to zero prior to tuning?

If you turn off the Imprint feature and I was using the x-over in my sub amp previously, does that mean my sub is no longer crossed over?


----------



## rsvchad

deputydog95 said:


> I have a few questions. I tried the unit out last night, and I am not happy with it so far. I am probably doing something wrong.
> 
> The car is a convertible with unusable back seats. I have a set of Diamond Audio components in the front and a pair of JL subwoofers in the rear, where the seat bottoms used to be. I am not using any rear mid/high speakers. I am using two JL amplifiers to power the system (one for the subs and the other for the front components).
> 
> Should this unit be able to work with a system that has no rear speakers?
> 
> Do all the microphone positions have to be at head level?
> 
> How exact do the microphone positions need to be? It seems difficult to get it at head height in some of these locations.
> 
> Do the x-overs on both amplifiers need to be turned off? The directions say to only turn the subwoofer amplifier x-over off.
> 
> Does it matter where the subwoofer gain on the head unit was set prior to tuning? Is it recommended to set it to zero prior to tuning?
> 
> If you turn off the Imprint feature and I was using the x-over in my sub amp previously, does that mean my sub is no longer crossed over?


Yes

No they don't HAVE to be athead level, but SHOULD be at head level.

You should be able to pick up a cheap tripod at Walmart etc to make mic placement easier.

Turn off all outboard x-overs. IMPRINT will determine the best x-overpoints.

I would set the subwoofer level a few clicks up from zero so you have room to boost OR cut if you so desire.

Yes, if you are not using the low-pass x-over built into the deck.


----------



## caohyde

jobski said:


> do you need to have an active setup (active xovers) to utilize the imprint? or passive is ok?


jobski, nope, passives is okay.


----------



## jobski

caohyde said:


> jobski, nope, passives is okay.


ok thanks man


----------



## Arc

I tried 2 different runs with the Imprint.

The first one was a single measurment at the drivers seat head level. This made a huge difference in the sound stage. It pushed it fairly far beyond the window to my ears. Although I thought the sound was lacking.

The second time I did all six locations. This made the stage in the same centered location but widened it and brought it in a little. This was better for me because I personnally like the sound closer to me than on the hood. That being said, the stage is still about 6 inches behind the rear view mirror.

This is the response graph that I had after the 6 locations. It is much better compared to what it was with only one location. This weekend I will have the PC measurement system to take an actual to compare too.


----------



## avaxis

From the H650 thread...



npdang said:


> You set the xover points for the highpass between the tweeter, and it sets the mid/bass lowpass appropriately. As far as the sub to mid/bass, it seems to just auto-set at 80hz.
> 
> I wouldn't disable the sub during tuning, as Imho room correction is most effective at those frequencies.
> 
> As far as auto-tuning... I honestly think it's going to be better than all but a very small minority of expert tuners, and certainly better than anything they could do in the *same* amount of time, provided you know how to work with the h650 and take care of a few of it's little quirks. Not to mention there are probably only a handful of people in this country with any experience using room correction in a car.
> 
> How many people come on this board looking for a good tune but can't seem to ever reach it? I really think this, and possibly the ms-8 are the perfect solution.


is this the same for the CDA-9887 with Imprint? regarding the crossover tuning?


----------



## rsvchad

avaxis said:


> From the H650 thread...
> 
> 
> 
> is this the same for the CDA-9887 with Imprint? regarding the crossover tuning?


Nope, all X-overs are set with IMPRINT on the 9887.


----------



## avaxis

rsvchad said:


> Nope, all X-overs are set with IMPRINT on the 9887.


ok, how would IMPRINT know how low your tweeters can go then?


----------



## 106diablogti

avaxis said:


> ok, how would IMPRINT know how low your tweeters can go then?


Yes good question, does this information get taken from the 9887's default 50hz / 4Khz crossover points? If this is the case when you select user settings and change them will it use these as the highest and lowest settings?

Also with respect of distortion can it detect this so that effectively the max set volume it doesn't clip? (I have set the gains on my amps so that they do not clip at all on max volume, but if the Alpine decides to boost any frequencies I guess it will hinder what I have done). I will get the oscilloscope out at the weekend and double check this.

I notice there is a folder with the completed results. The filetypes are .acb, does anyone know what can open these files? If these could be edited then uploaded to the Alpine then you could tweak the results, just a thought.


----------



## nismos14

Forgve me if this has already been brought up, but is there a danger of the imprint damaging speakers when used with an active setup? I ask because I see that you no longer have control over the crossovers in the system, that being the case, what happens if imrprint decides the tweets should be crossed over at a lower frequency than they can handle?


----------



## tophatjimmy

I just asked that exact question to Alpine's tech support (1-800-tech 101) and he said that the Imprint software will just set the xover and slopes to whatever it sees as appropriate to get the sound field desired - regardless of what speakers you have in there. So if you have tweets that can only play well down to 3500Hz, theres no guarantee that the software won't cross them over at 2200HZ and potentially blow up your tweets.....

He told me that in that case, using the Imprint software might not be such a good idea....... THANKS ALPINE - ANOTHER QUALITY PRODUCT!


----------



## 106diablogti

tophatjimmy said:


> I just asked that exact question to Alpine's tech support (1-800-tech 101) and he said that the Imprint software will just set the xover and slopes to whatever it sees as appropriate to get the sound field desired - regardless of what speakers you have in there. So if you have tweets that can only play well down to 3500Hz, theres no guarantee that the software won't cross them over at 2200HZ and potentially blow up your tweets.....
> 
> He told me that in that case, using the Imprint software might not be such a good idea....... THANKS ALPINE - ANOTHER QUALITY PRODUCT!


I thought that might be the case so set my amp crossover on the tweets to the lowest possible frequency they can play as an extra precaution!


----------



## nismos14

I guess its good my tweets can play down to 2k... but still thats kind of ridiculous.


----------



## mukaiya

I have my 9887 set up in 3-way configuration via the toggle switch at the bottom of the HU - 2 tweeters in dash, 2 mids in front doors (driven by a 4-ch external amp) and an active subwoofer ("SUBW.Channel" set to "Mono" in HU). 

I ran the Imprint calibration and noticed that while pulsating sound was heard when calibrating the FL, FR, SWL and SWR speakers, nothing was heard for RL and RR. Nonetheless I let the process ran for 3 seating positions (FR, FL and rear centre) before uploading the default target curve to the HU.

During playback with MultEQ enabled, I could hear sound coming out from the tweeters and mids, but the subwoofer output was puny.

My doubt is - did Imprint NOT calibrate the tweeters or the mids? There's no way of telling.


----------



## 106diablogti

mukaiya said:


> I have my 9887 set up in 3-way configuration via the toggle switch at the bottom of the HU - 2 tweeters in dash, 2 mids in front doors (driven by a 4-ch external amp) and an active subwoofer ("SUBW.Channel" set to "Mono" in HU).
> 
> I ran the Imprint calibration and noticed that while pulsating sound was heard when calibrating the FL, FR, SWL and SWR speakers, nothing was heard for RL and RR. Nonetheless I let the process ran for 3 seating positions (FR, FL and rear centre) before uploading the default target curve to the HU.
> 
> During playback with MultEQ enabled, I could hear sound coming out from the tweeters and mids, but the subwoofer output was puny.
> 
> My doubt is - did Imprint NOT calibrate the tweeters or the mids? There's no way of telling.


I run exactly the same set-up and have the unit in 3 way mode. I set the system in 4 seating positions (FR, FL, RC & Front middle)

With the Imprint mic, cd etc. additional instructions stated to put the gain on the subwoofer amp to half way! I didn't do this as the I set the gains correctly with my scope.

I know what you mean about lack of output from the sub frequencies, I guess it won't hurt increasing the gain slightly so the Imprint calibration notices the sub better. I would imagine that MultEQ sets the gain structure and thus reduces the output if its excessive.

I have managed to open the acb files in the Customer Results folder. There are 2 xml files. One is the results and the other is the calibration settings.

There seems to be a ton of .anb filetypes for the various filters etc. I haven't managed to open these yet but the xml files reveal the selected crossover points. I will cut an extract out later.

Contents of the file suggest:- 

Channels 1 - 2 cover the fronts speakers
Channels 3 - 4 cover the rear speakers
Channels 5 - 6 cover SubW left and right.

It was interesting that the crossover for the front speakers was set down to 40hz (I presume it is hz as it didn't state this) and a crossover cut off of 20?? (again it didn't state whether this was hz or khz) Im guessing this is 20khz. There was nothing in the file to suggest the tweeters lowest frequency though which is strange.

The sub had a crossover point of 0 and a cut off of 50hz.


----------



## avaxis

tophatjimmy said:


> I just asked that exact question to Alpine's tech support (1-800-tech 101) and he said that the Imprint software will just set the xover and slopes to whatever it sees as appropriate to get the sound field desired - regardless of what speakers you have in there. So if you have tweets that can only play well down to 3500Hz, theres no guarantee that the software won't cross them over at 2200HZ and potentially blow up your tweets.....
> 
> He told me that in that case, using the Imprint software might not be such a good idea....... THANKS ALPINE - ANOTHER QUALITY PRODUCT!


did you feedback to alpine and tell them how stupid it is? what did they say? hope they come up with v2 of the software soon. maybe some already got smoked tweeters for thanksgiving.


----------



## nismos14

Sounds like this setup is not really good for those running active....


----------



## 106diablogti

Out of the calibResults.xml file I got the following :-

<Channel>1 
<TrimLevel>5.30921173 
<MEQTrimLevel>5.30921173 
<SpeakerType>SPEAKER_SMALL 
<Delay>3.5625 
<Polarity>1 
<Crossover>40 
<CutoffFreq>20 
<CutoffOrder>2 
<scores href="#ref-3" /> 
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-4" /> 
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-5" /> 
<positionDelay href="#ref-6" /> 
<Level href="#ref-7" /> 
<TrimShift href="#ref-8" /> 
<mayBeLarge>false 
<selectedCrossover>40 
<filterSampleRate>48000 
<filterOffset>-9 

<Channel>2 
<TrimLevel>6.868965 
<MEQTrimLevel>6.868965 
<SpeakerType>SPEAKER_SMALL 
<Delay>3.5 
<Polarity>1 
<Crossover>40 
<CutoffFreq>20 
<CutoffOrder>2 
<scores href="#ref-9" /> 
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-10" /> 
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-11" /> 
<positionDelay href="#ref-12" /> 
<Level href="#ref-13" /> 
<TrimShift href="#ref-14" /> 
<mayBeLarge>false 
<selectedCrossover>40 
<filterSampleRate>48000 
<filterOffset>-9 


<Channel>5 
<TrimLevel>-6.80771637 
<MEQTrimLevel>-6.80771637 
<SpeakerType>SUBWOOFER 
<Delay>6.04166651 
<Polarity>1 
<Crossover>0 
<CutoffFreq>50 
<CutoffOrder>2 
<scores href="#ref-27" /> 
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-28" /> 
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-29" /> 
<positionDelay href="#ref-30" /> 
<Level href="#ref-31" /> 
<TrimShift href="#ref-32" /> 
<mayBeLarge>false 
<selectedCrossover>0 
<filterSampleRate>48000 
<filterOffset>-9 

<Channel>6 
<TrimLevel>-6.868965 
<MEQTrimLevel>-6.868965 
<SpeakerType>SUBWOOFER 
<Delay>6.02083349 
<Polarity>1 
<Crossover>0 
<CutoffFreq>50 
<CutoffOrder>2 
<scores href="#ref-33" /> 
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-34" /> 
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-35" /> 
<positionDelay href="#ref-36" /> 
<Level href="#ref-37" /> 
<TrimShift href="#ref-38" /> 
<mayBeLarge>false 
<selectedCrossover>0 
<filterSampleRate>48000 
<filterOffset>-9


----------



## ocuriel

What's with all the alpine bashing based on stupid assumptions. Get the facts 1st. Don't just assume.


----------



## nismos14

Who's bashing what? Seems to me like people got some facts, and I still love my 9887  


Did I miss something?


----------



## ocuriel

I don't picture this unit crossing anything lower then what the driver can handle. I would imagine it starts off high, and then plays down till it recognizes distortion, which will then set the crossover accordingly, but above where the driver has the least distortion. 

This seems more logical to me.


----------



## chadillac3

ocuriel said:


> I don't picture this unit crossing anything lower then what the driver can handle. I would imagine it starts off high, and then plays down till it recognizes distortion, which will then set the crossover accordingly, but above where the driver has the least distortion.
> 
> This seems more logical to me.


So, your assumptions are more "logical" than the person who actually called Alpine's tech support and was otherwise?


----------



## ocuriel

Do you honestly think tech support has any idea how it works? I don't. 

But I do see how my comments were a bit harsh. I didn't want people to be misled to think active is a no-no with this set up based on 1 tech support person who probably has minimal knowledge of this unit.

Actually, to users, what has the software crossed your tweeters at and how low can your tweeters play spec wise? This should give us an idea if it's crossing too low or not.


----------



## Jeff in CO

106diablogti said:


> Out of the calibResults.xml file I got the following :-
> 
> <Channel>1
> <TrimLevel>5.30921173
> <MEQTrimLevel>5.30921173
> <SpeakerType>SPEAKER_SMALL
> <Delay>3.5625
> <Polarity>1
> <Crossover>40
> <CutoffFreq>20
> <CutoffOrder>2
> <scores href="#ref-3" />
> <bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-4" />
> <bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-5" />
> <positionDelay href="#ref-6" />
> <Level href="#ref-7" />
> <TrimShift href="#ref-8" />
> <mayBeLarge>false
> <selectedCrossover>40
> <filterSampleRate>48000
> <filterOffset>-9
> 
> 
> <Channel>6
> <TrimLevel>-6.868965
> <MEQTrimLevel>-6.868965
> <SpeakerType>SUBWOOFER
> <Delay>6.02083349
> <Polarity>1
> <Crossover>0
> <CutoffFreq>50
> <CutoffOrder>2
> <scores href="#ref-33" />
> <bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-34" />
> <bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-35" />
> <positionDelay href="#ref-36" />
> <Level href="#ref-37" />
> <TrimShift href="#ref-38" />
> <mayBeLarge>false
> <selectedCrossover>0
> <filterSampleRate>48000
> <filterOffset>-9


Where did you find this file and how did you open it up? I see a folder called customer results but nothing else. Thanks!


----------



## avaxis

chadillac3 said:


> So, your assumptions are more "logical" than the person who actually called Alpine's tech support and was otherwise?


word!

someone's assuming
#1 alpine tech support doesn't know anything
and
#2 the IMPRINT works the way he think/want/wish it works

someone surely got their panties all tied up. nobody is bashing anything. i started asking cause I want to find out the truth. Anyway, as per tophatjimmy's call, 1 alpine tech support guy said not to use the IMPRINT if you're afraid of smoked tweeters. can someone else call alpine to get a 2nd opinion and confirm this so we can get this over with? (then again i foresee someone saying everyone who works in alpine's tech support are all stupid so don't listen to them, listen to me instead! )


----------



## 106diablogti

Jeff in CO said:


> Where did you find this file and how did you open it up? I see a folder called customer results but nothing else. Thanks!


The files in the Customer results folder can be opened with Win rar, they are only cabinet files. Within the cabinet are the sub files I mentioned.


----------



## Sandstorm

Does anyone on here rent there Imprint Kit out?


----------



## Arc

Sandstorm said:


> Does anyone on here rent there Imprint Kit out?


I got mine form Crutchfield. You buy it for 250, then return it within 30 days and you get 200 back. That was when it first came out, I am assuming that they still do it. So go have a look.


----------



## Sandstorm

Thanks man!


----------



## Sandstorm

Yes, they still offer that deal. One more question, can the imprint kit still benefit me even if I am running a passive 6 speaker setup for my front stage(CDT Audio HD-62 Components with Upstage Image Tweeter)?


----------



## Arc

Sandstorm said:


> Yes, they still offer that deal. One more question, can the imprint kit still benefit me even if I am running a passive 6 speaker setup for my front stage(CDT Audio HD-62 Components with Upstage Image Tweeter)?


Only in regards to EQ I would guess. Since it won't have the ability to time align completely it might not help as much as if you were active. Though it might center it pretty well.


----------



## adrianp89

I will be getting my 9887 this week and the Imprint the week after, I will let you guys know the results  They should be rather huge figuring my horns need an EQ BAD and some alignment.


----------



## tophatjimmy

ok, just got done with an hour long listening/tweaking session and here are my impressions. This review is my opinion and should only be taken as such.

First off - equipment.
HU = CDA-9887 w/Imprint curves stored
Tweets = Focal TN52 
Mids = Dayton RS180-4
Subs = JL 12w3 v2 (pair)
Tweet/Mids Amp = Arc CXLR-4150
Sub Amp = Arc CXL-1500D

I finally broke down and installed the 9887, since I'm tired of waiting for my 7998 to come back from repair and I just can't stand to not have tunes in my car. I spent almost 3 hours with the Imprint software and mic on Friday getting everything set up, sampling and sampling again until I was convinced I got the best I was gonna get. 
My initial impressions were pretty good with the Imprint enabled. Music sounded more detailed and accurate albeit a little subdued and diffused for my tastes, the bass response was poor (as noted by many earlier in this thread) but everything seemed to blend pretty well.
Sunday driving around trying different music, I noticed that my right mid was making some nasty noises - like it ws blown, but only if I turned it up pretty loud, so I backed off and figured it was time to order a new one from PE.

Today after work I decided that I was going to manually tune everything, set the TA and tweak with the parametric EQ and then compare how it sounded against the Imprint setting.

With me and the mic in the car (using AudioControl RTA) I got the response curve as flat-ish as I could (the curve is still far from flat).

With me still in the car, playing pink noise, I switched between the Imprint curve and my own manual settings. My curve was a little ugly, and the Imprint curve was surprisingly linear - in fact it looked very much like the "after" response graphed out during the Imprint calibration.

Ok, cool looks like this thing actually does what it's supposed to do - but.....

Here are my complaints; in my opinion, from my perspective. 
With the Imprint enabled, the bass response is piss poor - no volume, no impact. I originally sampled with the sub volume at 0, then afterwards turned it back up to 15 and it still sucked. I'm not a bass-head by any means, but I like to experience my subs, not just let them chill in the background (sorry all you SQ guys, just not into invisible bass). The mids do sound more open and detailed, but the vocals sound hollow and distant. The highs, which I figured would need to be tamed down, are just kinda there. Detailed and accurate, but no life, no sparkle.

I also have noticed that when the Imprint is engaged, it does something to the volume control. From 0 - 23, the volume gets progressively louder as you turn it up (duh), but from 23 - 35, there is NO audible increase in volume. It's like the HU is maxed out at 2/3 volume. When I disengage the Imprint, this goes away. WTF?? I have some older, softer recordings that I have to turn up to enjoy and the deck runs out of steam.  

All in all, I'm more than a little disappointed. IMO, my manual settings sound better to me than with Imprint engaged. Maybe my hearing is just set in its ways, maybe I just don't know how a properly set up system is supposed to sound, I don't know. What I do know is that I want my system to make me happy when I listen to it and with the Imprint engaged, it doesn't float my boat. Oh, and with the Imprint disengaged, no more bad sounds from my right mid. ?????

So looks like when my CDA-7998 comes back from Alpine, I'll have an almost new 9887 up for sale.

~fin


----------



## Jeff in CO

Tophatjimmy......

I have to agree with pretty much everything you have said. I have also noted the same specifics:

-The lack of impact drums and bass with the Imprint
-The volume also stops increasing past around 24 for me. I have found myself looking for more volume.
-During imprint, I had the gain on my sub about halfway. I tried to compensate afterward by turning it up just beyond 3/4 full. I'm still missing the punch. I am similar in my taste....nothing too heavy in the bass but I do want it to perform. I have found that with Imprint off, I am able to get the kick much better.

My Imprint unit is set to go back to Crutchfield but I may try one more shot with the subwoofer gain set at about 1/4 and run the Imprint. I will then kick the gain back up to 1/2+ and see if it gets any better. If not, I would like to get into the imprint files and manually adjust the time delay in regular mode. Perhaps this will give me the punch as well as a little better imaging.


----------



## Babs

The head unit running out of steam for some recordings and the lack of bass dynamics... 

Makes me think, can't those just be tweaked AFTER running Imprint just by amp gain settings? Also with compensating for flat Imprint bass settings by running sub gains a good bit low for the Imprint setup, then Imprint would compensate by running bass hotter, then adjust to your liking? 

Interesting the response is pretty linear but folks say the bass is "weak"... I think it's that we've gotten used to that car-sound mid-bass bump, so a flat bass response is pretty noticeable in comparison.


----------



## rsvchad

Babs said:


> Interesting the response is pretty linear but folks say the bass is "weak"... I think it's that we've gotten used to that car-sound mid-bass bump, so a flat bass response is pretty noticeable in comparison.


I was going to say the same thing regarding the bass. The one car that I've used IMPRINT on so far came out really nice and well-balanced. The owner seemed quite happy as well. Plenty of output and impact from a pair of ED SQ10's. Perhaps you guys are just bassheads stuck in audiophile's bodies


----------



## oneiztoomany

interesting feedback everyone, i definately like to "feel" my bass so from everythingi have read so far it doesn't sound like Imprint is for me.

is there anyone who has tuned it with their sub amp gains turned low enough that after tuning they could get the type of sub response they desired?

also i certainly do not like the thought of the volume beeing cut off around 23. Hell for many of recordings i listen to that is my starting volume...


----------



## tophatjimmy

I lowered my amp gains and the sub volume at the deck when I did one of my 4 or 5 Imprint sessions. The Imprint compensated by bringing the low end up a little, but then when I turned the gains back up, it was still lackluster and it sounded off. Way too tight, with no low end, like "Pap-pap" instead of "boom-boom. Didn't like it.

Also in regards to the volume thing, bringing the gains up will work to make it louder, but you still only get from 0 - 23/24 to adjust the volume, after that the volume stops going up. So now instead of having a 0-35 range, you have a 0-23/24 range. Seems stupid to me - I don't get it.

Regardless, I guess it's different strokes for different folks. Some like it, some don't. Personally, I'm not a fan.


----------



## chadillac3

As you can read in my review of the H650, I'm not a fan either...and the H650 did allow for more tuning afterwards. Just not at all what I was hoping for.


----------



## oneiztoomany

well hopefully version 2.0 will be better, that should only take until 2010 for that to be released!!


----------



## Tx_Flip

Well I finally finished up the system and was considering using the local shop's Imprint Kit on my 9887 (which replaced a Premier 860MP). As others stated I have my doubts and skepticism about the Imprint tune but it won't cost me anything but time to give it a whirl. I'll see if my curiosity wins out.


----------



## ZoNtO

Haven't used either of these products but have read through the thread a bit. Do you guys think maybe the Imprint thing is cutting off volume at 24 because that's when the HU starts to clip? Has anyone tested preouts using an oscilliscope or something to see? Sounds like the Imprint thing takes traditional "SQ" elements to the extreme...


----------



## Betdathurt

I'll try to scope one at work tomorrow.


----------



## peteleong

hi, i would like to share my little word. I see some of you had problem on software link, some doubt on the 3-ways setup issues. For those who didn't aware of it. Alpine changed the logic on their 3-ways mode output connection on 9887HU, this maybe due to IMPRINT intergration issue. Please read your user manual properly before going any further imprint sound. It will most likely result bad SQ or damage the tweeter if we are not doing it in the correct way.


----------



## sonicnirvana

Anyone else notice that their rear speakers are off after calibration? I am using the 9887 in "2 Way" mode with outboard amps and a sub. I selected the Driver seat in the SW and ran all 6 positions. When it ran the chirp tests, sound came out of all 6 speakers. 

I didn't really notice it at first, but I pushed the fader to only the rears and there is Zero output from them...If I shut OFF imprint, the sounds returns to the rears, so it is only with the IMPRINT ON.

Also, the Alpine SW version 1.11 on the one that I got (on the splash screen, NOT the CD!). What do you all have? Is there anything newer or any updates?


----------



## 106diablogti

sonicnirvana said:


> Anyone else notice that their rear speakers are off after calibration? I am using the 9887 in "2 Way" mode with outboard amps and a sub. I selected the Driver seat in the SW and ran all 6 positions. When it ran the chirp tests, sound came out of all 6 speakers.
> 
> I didn't really notice it at first, but I pushed the fader to only the rears and there is Zero output from them...If I shut OFF imprint, the sounds returns to the rears, so it is only with the IMPRINT ON.
> 
> Also, the Alpine SW version 1.11 on the one that I got (on the splash screen, NOT the CD!). What do you all have? Is there anything newer or any updates?


On my cd cover it says Issue B and on the cd 1.10.

I have scanned the whole Alpine site and there seems to be no patches / updates. I can't even believe there isn't a technical forum for such a large organisation!!


----------



## sonicnirvana

OK, So I took a look at the calibResults.xml file and found it indentified my rears as Subwoofers. It also ID'd my subwoofer as a subwoofer so now I have four subs!

In disbelief I turned off my sub and sure enough nothing but deep bass was coming from the rear full range speakers and they were distorting badly at higher volumes. I didn't notice this before because I had my sub on and when I put my ear up to the rears and didn't hear anything. Makes sense now, but I have no idea why it did this.

No idea how to get around this one. Looks like I will call tech support tomorrow.


----------



## >>>marine<<<

Sonicnirvana - I take it that you don't want the rear speakers to be enabled at all...is that correct ??


----------



## sonicnirvana

Actually I do want them to function. I originally had my system setup as 3 way until I read about the problems with the Imprint and 3 way. I switched it over to 2 way and then had the problem with the rears playing only sub frequencies. Alpine tech support was not much help, they told me I had the SW and rears connections swapped, but when I explained that the SW volume control only affected the "real" SW, they had no explanation.

Well, I did figure out the problem. My rears are pretty crappy fully range speakers with no separate tweets. Apparently they do not extend up high enough for the Imprint software to know they are full range. I swapped in some bookshelf speakers with tweeters for a quick test and that resolved the problem. Now the rears play full range. I just picked up some halfway decent rear car speakers and will install them tonight and re-run the Imprint calibration.


----------



## coolman_wrx

Hi guys, im also just install 9887 HU n running Driver Seat Imprint MultiEQ. the sound was Amazing ! i also got try running Front Seat but the sound staging wont that accurately. i more prefer to Driver Seat.


----------



## havok20222

Stupidest question of the thread, but with the doors closed and the windows up, how do you initiate the Imprint? 

Also, is there no possible way to do this for people without a laptop?


----------



## sonicnirvana

The KTX-100EQ comes with a long USB cable that allows you to hook it up to your PC. It is long enough to reach from the passenger area of the car to the laptop outside the car. I thinks its maybe 15-10 feet long. And yes, you do need a PC, I don't think it supports Macs.


----------



## peteleong

havok20222 said:


> Stupidest question of the thread, but with the doors closed and the windows up, how do you initiate the Imprint?
> 
> Also, is there no possible way to do this for people without a laptop?


Yes. there is a way. get the H650 sound manager. you do not need a laptop with H650.


----------



## coolman_wrx

hows the result after calibration ?? any special case need to get attention ???


----------



## nismos14

I'm sure this has been answered, but does the h650 allow you to make manual adjustments? Is it an AI net connection to the 9887? Also does it allow you to store the changes or does it need to be hooked up at all times?

Finally does hte 9887 have the ability to control the h701?


----------



## JoelM

nismos14 said:


> I'm sure this has been answered, but does the h650 allow you to make manual adjustments? Is it an AI net connection to the 9887? Also does it allow you to store the changes or does it need to be hooked up at all times?
> 
> Finally does hte 9887 have the ability to control the h701?



I can only answer the last question but no, it doesn't control the h701. You still need the c701 for that.


----------



## Babs

nismos14 said:


> I'm sure this has been answered, but does the h650 allow you to make manual adjustments? Is it an AI net connection to the 9887? Also does it allow you to store the changes or does it need to be hooked up at all times?
> 
> Finally does hte 9887 have the ability to control the h701?


The adjustments post-Imprint are relatively simple.. 3-band parametric EQ, up to 10ms of time correction, and crossover points.. For EQ, I'd say the goal being if the Imprint process was done correctly there shouldn't be much left to improve freq response, provided you're goal is flat response, as the MultEQ applies a BUNCH of fir filter points to address acoustic spikes and issues to the physical sound, after AntEQ attempts to bring the OEM EQ'ing back to flat.

Don't see any AiNet connection at all on the H650.. Just USB for tuning by laptop, IR remote sensor (for the remote), wired remote (for steering wheel control.. nice touch), and the rest of the signal I/O and power.

The manual is a good read actually though not significantly great as npdang mentioned in his review.. typically the case, the manuals are written as an afterthought, so usually not so hot.


----------



## nismos14

Thanks guys!


----------



## rsvchad

A little more info on the IMPRINT software after I've the chance to use it for a while. When running IMPRINT, only the first measurement sets the time alignment and x-over points as well as determines how the speakers are set-up in vehicle. All other measurements are used to even out the frequency response. 

For those complaining that your volume only goes to 22, 23, 24 etc. Your gains were initially set too high on your amps. Lowering your gains will allow IMPRINT to utilize the full sweep of the volume control. If you set your gains for any gain overlap it is not possible to get full sweep on the volume. 

My biggest complaint about IMPRINT today: I must use my six year-old laptop to run it, as my brand-new one with Vista will not work. Has anyone found a way around this yet?


----------



## braves6117

rsvchad said:


> My biggest complaint about IMPRINT today: I must use my six year-old laptop to run it, as my brand-new one with Vista will not work. Has anyone found a way around this yet?



This is not to say I have found a way around this, but that this exact situation also applies to me. Program says it must terminate when attempted with windows vista...soo bump for a way around!


----------



## placenta

I ordered the KTX-100EQ today, looking forward to the setup.


----------



## MadMaxSE-L

placenta said:


> I ordered the KTX-100EQ today, looking forward to the setup.


Did you buy it, or are you doing the rental thing from Crutchfield/etc.? I'm waiting on my CDA-9887 to get here so I can start playing with it...

-Matt


----------



## placenta

ZoNtO said:


> Haven't used either of these products but have read through the thread a bit. Do you guys think maybe the Imprint thing is cutting off volume at 24 because that's when the HU starts to clip? Has anyone tested preouts using an oscilliscope or something to see? Sounds like the Imprint thing takes traditional "SQ" elements to the extreme...



of course it is dude. My McIntosh tells me exactly when my Alpine head unit clips, and its at 25. 24 is fine. You turn down your gains, then run Imprint again, your volume will be higher. But of course, no more putput. Can't have it both ways.

Thats all just my guess..


----------



## crea78

I've noticed you can adjust the GEQ and PEQ settings but nothing changes with the sound after making the tweaks. Do you need the IMPRINT in order to utilize the EQ functionality?


----------



## placenta

MadMaxSE-L said:


> Did you buy it, or are you doing the rental thing from Crutchfield/etc.? I'm waiting on my CDA-9887 to get here so I can start playing with it...
> 
> -Matt


I bought it. And I'll sell it later if I dont like it.


----------



## placenta

crea78 said:


> I've noticed you can adjust the GEQ and PEQ settings but nothing changes with the sound after making the tweaks. Do you need the IMPRINT in order to utilize the EQ functionality?


no, you dont need imprint to use the stock built in GEQ or PEQ. You must hit the "enter/play" button to save your settings after you change it.


----------



## MadMaxSE-L

placenta said:


> I bought it. And I'll sell it later if I dont like it.


Cool, you should let me use it 

-Matt


----------



## placenta

MadMaxSE-L said:


> Cool, you should let me use it
> 
> -Matt


I'll sell it to whoever wants it after im done with it. Or offer tuning at my location for a rental fee. But prob just sell it and avoid all the hassles.


----------



## rsvchad

placenta said:


> My McIntosh tells me exactly when my Alpine head unit clips...



Are you sure that is what your amplifier is telling you?


----------



## placenta

rsvchad said:


> Are you sure that is what your amplifier is telling you?


yes. thats what powerguard is for. and i can hear it with my ears too when the sound gets rough.


----------



## rsvchad

Can you explain to me how the amplifier can differentiate between a clipped and un-clipped signal upstream in a seperate component? What happens if you put in material (music) that is clipped? How can the amp differentiate between the source material (music/tones/noise) and the source unit (Alpine CDA-9887) clipping?


----------



## placenta

rsvchad said:


> Can you explain to me how the amplifier can differentiate between a clipped and un-clipped signal upstream in a seperate component? What happens if you put in material (music) that is clipped? How can the amp differentiate between the source material (music/tones/noise) and the source unit (Alpine CDA-9887) clipping?


no, i couldnt. ask someone who specializes in McIntosh.


----------



## rsvchad

Perhaps you should read what it is for so you don't assume and further use it improperly. I'll give you a clue. It has nothing to do with what your source unit is doing and everything to do with what the output of the amplifier is doing.


----------



## placenta

rsvchad said:


> Perhaps you should read what it is for so you don't assume and further use it improperly. I'll give you a clue. It has nothing to do with what your source unit is doing and everything to do with what the output of the amplifier is doing.


ive already discussed the use with other McIntosh owners regarding gain setting and am perfectly happy. If you want to discuss it deeper you should probably make a new thread about it.

Back on topic now..


----------



## rsvchad

placenta said:


> ive already discussed the use with other McIntosh owners regarding gain setting and am perfectly happy. If you want to discuss it deeper you should probably make a new thread about it.
> 
> Back on topic now..



I'm pretty sure the topic is still relevant seeing as you're providing misinformation to other owners of the same headunit. You know, the headunit refered to in the title of this thread. The outputs on the 9887 stay clean well past "24-25."


----------



## sonicnirvana

When I checked mine with an oscilloscope, it started clipping at 24 with Imprint "Off". With the Imprint "On" it never clipped even all the way up.


----------



## placenta

sonicnirvana said:


> When I checked mine with an oscilloscope, it started clipping at 24 with Imprint "Off". With the Imprint "On" it never clipped even all the way up.


Thanks, thats exactly what my McIntosh told me too. I think the distortion sensed was from the RCA signal, not the amp. I think the amp could have gone louder if the signal stayed clean with less peaks. Hence the benefit of the Imprint I have on the way.


----------



## rsvchad

placenta said:


> Thanks, thats exactly what my McIntosh told me too. I think the distortion sensed was from the RCA signal, not the amp. I think the amp could have gone louder if the signal stayed clean with less peaks. Hence the benefit of the Imprint I have on the way.


That isn't at all what your amp told you, but I digress. If your deck clips the output at 24, then it does, but there is no way for your amplifier to tell you that.

When I put mine on the scope, 31 was the magic number with a 0-db track with all processing turned off. 

To SonicNirvana: did you have all tone controls defeated/set flat? Do you have use of the full volume sweep with IMPRINT engaged? 

I find it odd that there is that much of spread between two of the same unit. Perhaps I have a "ringer."


----------



## dumdum

hmm, i scoped my alpine as being clean with 0db tones all the way to full (35) on sub output, mid output and tweeter output, using 45hz (sub xover at 80 24db slope) 1k and 3k (mid xover at 5000) and 6 and 10k (tweet xover at 5k also 24db slope)

i had to restructure the gains as my pioneer was low output compared, overall, the alpine sounds nice and altho i am tempted to use imprint i am also tempted to get a few of the sq guys i know to have a play and tweak session (know a few european champions as i am the enemy otherwise known as a dB numpty or dB drag competitor! )

nice to see alpine have lost the harshness of the last few years with this unit


----------



## sonicnirvana

rsvchad: Yes, I did have it in "defeat" mode when I tested it with Imprint Off. Wanted to make sure the EQ did not affect the gains. Also, yes I was able to push the volume all the way (to I think its 35) with Imprint "ON" with no distortion on the scope.

Maybe our tests are different. I used a 1Khz, 0db wav file I burned to a CD. That is the only frequency I tested. Also, I only tested the L/R output of the Front outputs, not the rears or the sub. I am also running the HU in the 2Way mode.

What method did you use?


----------



## sonicnirvana

dumdum: was your test done with Imprint "On" or "Off"? I was able to push to full volume with no clipping with it "On".


----------



## rsvchad

sonicnirvana said:


> rsvchad: Yes, I did have it in "defeat" mode when I tested it with Imprint Off. Wanted to make sure the EQ did not affect the gains. Also, yes I was able to push the volume all the way (to I think its 35) with Imprint "ON" with no distortion on the scope.
> 
> Maybe our tests are different. I used a 1Khz, 0db wav file I burned to a CD. That is the only frequency I tested. Also, I only tested the L/R output of the Front outputs, not the rears or the sub. I am also running the HU in the 2Way mode.
> 
> What method did you use?


1kHz, 0-db, CDA file (original recording - test disc), Front outputs. Did not try it with IMPRINT on, since I benched it (not installed in car) and had no way at the time to run IMPRINT.


----------



## MadMaxSE-L

So who has scoped their 9887 with the Imprint OFF and with the defeat ON? 

With the Imprint ON, every car and setup is going to be different, with peaks and dips in different spots; as well as boost added to different frequencies. Therefore, I would think that IF the unit was going to clip at all (which from my experience, the newer Alpine decks don't at all...), it may clip at a different volume level for everyone. 

I would like to know this for a fact though, but I may have to wait for mine to get here...

-Matt


----------



## sonicnirvana

That is how I did it - Imprint off - defeat on. It clipped at 24.


----------



## lostdaytomorrow

Well damn, I was planning on getting this bad boy just for the IMPRINT. 

Not anymore...


----------



## placenta

ya, you know.. the thread already has me discouraged and i havent even received my imprint kit yet. The part about the weak natural sub especially.


----------



## Just-Jeep

Guys just remember the Imprint box is not a magic box. Its a tuning aid. With infinite variables with so many models of cars/speakers/amps/decks/ears it can definately help with tuning but its not going to make things perfect. Especially when perfection of sound is subjective! 

Its definately a move in the right direction for car audio tho.


----------



## nismos14

crea78 said:


> I've noticed you can adjust the GEQ and PEQ settings but nothing changes with the sound after making the tweaks. Do you need the IMPRINT in order to utilize the EQ functionality?


I thought the same thing, but there is definately changes happening, they are slighter than in most HU's but if you turn one level up 6 or down 6 you will, or should definately notice it. I know after I make a tweak, I notice it maybe a few minutes into the track as those specific frequencies are playing throughout the track.


----------



## dumdum

sonicnirvana said:


> dumdum: was your test done with Imprint "On" or "Off"? I was able to push to full volume with no clipping with it "On".


imprint off as i don't have a ktx to try as yet (sounds awesome without!) and with load on the preouts ie not unplugged which some say makes a difference, some do not, i have scoped more amps than i have had hot dinners, just so you guys know that i am not a numpty!

i am one of the top five loudest guys in the world in my dB drag class so i know a bit about amp setup (strapped and matched twelve 2k amps in my last vehicle)

must say this headunit does sound awesome, i will add my ideas as to how it sounds with imprint on when i "borrow" (i'm certainly not buying it ) the kit from an audio shop i used to work at (probably the biggest, if not the second biggest in the UK


----------



## dumdum

sonicnirvana said:


> That is how I did it - Imprint off - defeat on. It clipped at 24.


i would suggest you have a defective unit or something was amiss with your setup as from the days of the legendary 7939 i have not actually tested a 4v alpine bar the 7944 iirc that clipped on full chat, off the top of my head that includes 6-8 alpine models with the four volt preouts


----------



## Twonks

dumdum said:


> must say this headunit does sound awesome, i will add my ideas as to how it sounds with imprint on when i "borrow" (i'm certainly not buying it ) the kit from an audio shop i used to work at (probably the biggest, if not the second biggest in the UK


Hello Mr 9887 user  

Nath did a good job then


----------



## sonicnirvana

Yeah, not sure what was up with that. I took the HU out of my truck and it doesn't clip at full volume. But in the truck it clipped at 24. I just replaced the RCA's, so I will have to check it again.


----------



## MrLister

So can you run the software alone with the mic without the deck? Seems like simple to use software and a good mic.


----------



## MadMaxSE-L

dumdum said:


> i would suggest you have a defective unit or something was amiss with your setup as from the days of the legendary 7939 i have not actually tested a 4v alpine bar the 7944 iirc that clipped on full chat, off the top of my head that includes 6-8 alpine models with the four volt preouts


This is exactly what I was thinking. Even my lil' CDA-9831 didn't clip at full boar. From what I've heard/read, the newer Alpines don't clip...

I got my 9887 put in last night and had a chance to play a little; I love the way it looks but I didn't get any tuning time in. Can't wait to though...

-Matt


----------



## placenta

placenta said:


> ya, you know.. the thread already has me discouraged and i havent even received my imprint kit yet. The part about the weak natural sub especially.


since my crappy ebayer hadnt even shipped my item and it still wasnt in stock, i cancelled the order for now.


----------



## Just-Jeep

placenta said:


> since my crappy ebayer hadnt even shipped my item and it still wasnt in stock, i cancelled the order for now.


Crutchfield has used Imprint tuners for sale now and encourage "renting" them even...


----------



## MadMaxSE-L

Just-Jeep said:


> Crutchfield has used Imprint tuners for sale now and encourage "renting" them even...


Yeah, you have to pay $250 to get one, and can keep the kit for 1 month. Then you send it back and they refund you $200 - you have to pay $50 to rent the thing out. 

Compare that to the amount a shop would want for a day or so of tuning on your car, and it doesn't really seem that bad...

-Matt


----------



## placenta

MadMaxSE-L said:


> Yeah, you have to pay $250 to get one, and can keep the kit for 1 month. Then you send it back and they refund you $200 - you have to pay $50 to rent the thing out.
> 
> Compare that to the amount a shop would want for a day or so of tuning on your car, and it doesn't really seem that bad...
> 
> -Matt



ah the ebay one was $187 shipped, but doesnt do any good when they dont have it in stock.


----------



## ariesnps

Hi, 

After I lived with manual settingfor 3 months, yesterday I just got my 9887 imprinted. But surprisingly the sound is awful with the multeq is on. No sound comes out except small bass. But surprisingly when I turn off the multeq and back to the manual settings everything sounds better from before (i am not sure whether is it real or just psychological effect). Bass sounds tighter and right, vocal sounds thicker and the treble sounds clearer. Does anybody have similar experience?
Thanks.


----------



## sonicnirvana

First of all, are you running 3way? If so, don't use MultiEQ with 3 way. Many people have complained about issues with it and some have even blown their tweeters. I called Alpine tech support and they told me its not supported with 3 way mode on the HU. 

If you are running 2way, then double check all of your connections and listen carefully when the tests are running. As each speaker lights up in the software, you should hear multiple quick sine sweeps coming from that speaker in that location. If not your wiring is incorrect. Also listen to the range of the sweep. I had stock rear speakers and the HF was so bad the HU thought they were woofers and treated them that way. 

Once I got all this straightened out, it sounded fantastic. Nice, rich full sound, immense sound stage, and none of the weak bass some have mentioned.


----------



## ariesnps

Hi Thanks for sharing

I am running 2way system with 2 mid bass 2 tweeters and 1 sub. The amplifier 4x100W. I am also using passive xover from the speaker manufacturer. Could it be that the passive somehow distrupted the imprint process? How accurate should i put the microphone during the setting? Oh ya, I set for FRONT when I did the imprint and I chose Reference and Reference with midrange (?) for the imprint setting. I have no rear speakers running in my car. 

+A


----------



## MadMaxSE-L

ariesnps said:


> Hi Thanks for sharing
> 
> I am running 2way system with 2 mid bass 2 tweeters and 1 sub. The amplifier 4x100W. I am also using passive xover from the speaker manufacturer. Could it be that the passive somehow distrupted the imprint process? How accurate should i put the microphone during the setting? Oh ya, I set for FRONT when I did the imprint and I chose Reference and Reference with midrange (?) for the imprint setting. I have no rear speakers running in my car.
> 
> +A


I don't really see how the Imprint could really work well with a passive front stage. How is the headunit going to time align/eq the tweeter/midbass separately when there is only one speaker wire supplying the signal to the crossover?


----------



## nismos14

^ by adusting the eq.


----------



## MadMaxSE-L

nismos14 said:


> ^ by adusting the eq.


Right, but that's about all it could accurately do. I would think that Imprint would try to apply t/a and balance/level adjustments to the tweeter/midbass separately and would mess with a passive setup in weird ways...


----------



## sonicnirvana

I am convinced it does something else too. I have been able to pretty match the sound curve manually, but not the sound stage. I have used WinMLS to set the TA, but the sound stage is still different with Imprint. Definately higher and wider...not sure what its doing...


----------



## MadMaxSE-L

sonicnirvana said:


> I am convinced it does something else too. I have been able to pretty match the sound curve manually, but not the sound stage. I have used WinMLS to set the TA, but the sound stage is still different with Imprint. Definately higher and wider...not sure what its doing...


So your stage was higher and wider with Imprint tuning with your passive system? Interesting. Maybe I will try Imprint while I still have my passives hooked up 

-Matt


----------



## rsvchad

IMPRINT works just fine with my 3-way active set-up using SPX17PRO components without the passive x-overs and , for now, a single Type-R 12" subwoofer. 

As I beleive I have stated before, the IMPRINT takes you well beyond what a user can do to alter the sound on this head unit. IMPRINT uses 512 FIR points. These points are spaced evenly along the audio range, although I have no specs as to the beginning and end points used. If we assume that it covers the entire 20Hz - 20kHz range then a filter is applied every 39.02Hz. (I believe based on other implementations on Audyssey that it is more likely ~40Hz-15kHz.) The filter is not only able to alter level at each one of these points, but also time and phase. 

What this means: 

While in the manual tuning mode you can access five bands of parmetric EQ or seven bands of graphic EQ. Imprint has access to 512 bands of linear phase EQ.

While in manual mode you have access to time-align individual channels (up to six). IMPRINT on the other hand can time-align and adjust phase 0-180 degrees along 512 points every 39.02Hz.

Trying to outdo the IMPRINT with the manual tuning available on the deck alone is never going to happen. Hopefully you can see why.


----------



## MadMaxSE-L

rsvchad said:


> IMPRINT works just fine with my 3-way active set-up using SPX17PRO components without the passive x-overs and , for now, a single Type-R 12" subwoofer.
> 
> As I beleive I have stated before, the IMPRINT takes you well beyond what a user can do to alter the sound on this head unit. IMPRINT uses 512 FIR points. These points are spaced evenly along the audio range, although I have no specs as to the beginning and end points used. If we assume that it covers the entire 20Hz - 20kHz range then a filter is applied every 39.02Hz. (I believe based on other implementations on Audyssey that it is more likely ~40Hz-15kHz.) The filter is not only able to alter level at each one of these points, but also time and phase.
> 
> What this means:
> 
> While in the manual tuning mode you can access five bands of parmetric EQ or seven bands of graphic EQ. Imprint has access to 512 bands of linear phase EQ.
> 
> While in manual mode you have access to time-align individual channels (up to six). IMPRINT on the other hand can time-align and adjust phase 0-180 degrees along 512 points every 39.02Hz.
> 
> Trying to outdo the IMPRINT with the manual tuning available on the deck alone is never going to happen. Hopefully you can see why.


I wasn't trying to imply I could outdo Imprint; I was just thinking out loud about how it would work with regards to t/a and level matching when used with passives...

-Matt


----------



## sonicnirvana

rsvchad said:


> IMPRINT works just fine with my 3-way active set-up using SPX17PRO components without the passive x-overs and , for now, a single Type-R 12" subwoofer.



Hmmmm really? I have read that people have had issues with crossovers to low on their tweeters and Alpine tech support told me they do not support it? Maybe I will have to give it another try now that I have gone 3-way active. I was afraid to try it again. What version of the Imprint S/W are you using?


----------



## rsvchad

MadMaxSE-L said:


> I wasn't trying to imply I could outdo Imprint; I was just thinking out loud about how it would work with regards to t/a and level matching when used with passives...
> 
> -Matt


Exactly. I was building on Sonicnirvana's description of not being able to get it as good in terms of staging/imaging by using manual controls, despite being able to get it tonally similar. I tried to answer your question regarding the passive networks by explaining how it works. If you were to use a passive component system and manual tuning you would be left with time-aligning the left and right mid/tweet combo as a whole. Essentially you could time align the front left channel and the front right channel. IMPRINT has 512 bands to work with even if passive networks are used.


----------



## rsvchad

sonicnirvana said:


> Hmmmm really? I have read that people have had issues with crossovers to low on their tweeters and Alpine tech support told me they do not support it? Maybe I will have to give it another try now that I have gone 3-way active. I was afraid to try it again. What version of the Imprint S/W are you using?


I have throttled mine to the extremes and have had no driver failures. Each woofer and tweeter of the SPX set receives its own channel of Alpine PDX-4.150.

I will try to investigate further with Alpine on this, but it seems to me they would either make something that "isn't supported" not possible or at least display a warning about it. Afterall even the screen on the unit blurbs out a warning about selecting the tweeter channel to full-range when in 3-way mode.


----------



## sonicnirvana

rsvchad said:


> I Afterall even the screen on the unit blurbs out a warning about selecting the tweeter channel to full-range when in 3-way mode.


Say What? I never saw this screen when I did mine 3-way active back when I first got it? Where does it says this, on the laptop software or on the HU screen? I assume you mean it does this when you are running Imprint from the laptop, right?

And what version of the Imprint S/W are you running?


----------



## rsvchad

sonicnirvana said:


> Say What? I never saw this screen when I did mine 3-way active back when I first got it? Where does it says this, on the laptop software or on the HU screen? I assume you mean it does this when you are running Imprint from the laptop, right?
> 
> And what version of the Imprint S/W are you running?


I'll have to check on the IMPRINT when I get home.

As to the message on the screen:

On the 9887 with IMPRINT off:

Go to setup-> Audio ->TW Makers (I believe)-> user's/makers -> select "users"

Go to crossover settings.

Toggle through slopes on "hi" band. It will toggle 6db/octave, 12db/octave, 18db/octave, 24db/octave, full-range <- This is where you will see the warning displayed on the 9887 screen. This will only occur if you have the head unit in three-way mode and IMPRINT is turned off.


----------



## sonicnirvana

aaahhh yup, I have seen that on the HU. Thought you meant the Imprint SW. Do you remember when you did your imprint in 3way active, if it sent the chirp tones separate to each speaker? I remember it sending the chirp tones to both the mids and tweets at the same time when I was in 3way mode for the first pair of speakers. Then I got nothing out of the second pair of outputs shown on the screen. This is why I thought it wasn't working right. Its like it treated it like it was still in 2 way. Thought it would hit them all separately like it does in 2 way mode...


----------



## kaigoss69

I just wanted to chime in real quick after spending the last couple of hours reading this very interesting and informative thread.

I have a couple of questions I was hoping some of you are experienced enough to answer:

1. My current HU is an Alpine CDA-7998. When I bought it, it was considered a top notch SQ head unit. From what I have read, I definitely want/need IMPRINT to help me tune my system correctly. Do you think I would be better off keeping the CDA-7998 and adding on an IMPRINT processor like a 605 (sorry, forgot the exact model number) or will I get better results by buying the CDA-9887 and rent the IMPRINT kit from Crutchfield? What I want is SQ, i.e. a flat response, correct imaging and time correction, and correct x-over points.

My front stage is passive, 3-way (Focal 165-VR3), so I have no chance of going active and keeping the subwoofer. No speakers in rear doors. Sub is a JL 12W7 in the trunk.

2. My second question revolves around another head unit you can IMPRINT, the IDA-X100. Assuming the IMPRINTability (new word?) is the same as with the CDA-9887, what kind of SQ differences would I be looking at, assuming the IDA-X100 is not in the same league as the CDA-9887, SQ wise? Keep in mind, however, that most of the listening I do is from MP3 (320kbps), and the IDA-X100 has the distinct advantage that it can pull files from your IPOO digitally and then use the internall Burr Brown DAC to convert to analog while in the CDA-7998 you are stuck with getting an analog signal which was converted inside the IPOO.... 

As far as pre-out voltages, they would both be 4V since adding the IMPRINT module to the IDA-X100 bumps it up from 2V.

Thanks for any constructive feedback.


----------



## trainman0978

Hello all. First post on this forum. I signed up mainly account of this thread in particular. I have the Alpine 9887 head unit and the KTX-100EQ imprint kit. 


LOVE IT !!!!!!

Hear is what my system consists of :

2007 Toyota FJ Cruiser 

- Alpine 9887 head unit, and imprinted with the KTX-100EQ - bought it, didn't rent it... 

- MB Quartz 3.5" in back pillars - cant remember what line.

- Sundown Audio SAX100.4 

- JL Audio 3 way 6.5" component set XR653-CSi ( doors and dash )

- JL Audio 2 way Component set XR650CSi ( in the back seat - sidewalls )

- Alpine MRD - M1005 ( sub amp, does okay, but I WANT MORE !!!!! )

- Alpine High speed Ipod cable, and KCA-SC100 with Sirius sat. radio. 

- Alpine Type - R 12" subs -- 2 - 12" s in a store bought box.

- All wiring is Stinger 12 gauge and HPM Level 3 RCAs, KnuKonceptz Power and ground and BIG 3 ALL OF IT is 1/0 gauge , stock battery and alternator-

-240 sq. ft. of Damplifier Pro, 36 sq. ft. of Overkill Pro, 6 full sheets of Luxury Liner, and a gallon of spectrum --All from Second Skin.....I can't put too much more in there and get it back together !!!

My main question is this:

Should I leave my deck set on the 2 way or 3 way switch? ( left it the way it was from the factory) 

I am running the two sets of comps, and it sounds really , really good. I was just wondering if there was any other little tweaks that may help. 

I read thru most of this thread, and I seem to remeber some of you guys doing it both ways . And I got kinda mixed up, and I really don't wanna go back and read it all again.

This thread and the review on the 9887 head unit from this forum is what got me to make the decision to buy this set up. 

Also, I know of one place that still has 13 imprint kits in stock and is a authorized online alpine retailer. I am not sure If I can plug it here or not so I didn't throw the link in....


----------



## kaigoss69

I just wanted to chime in real quick after spending the last couple of hours reading this very interesting and informative thread.

I have a couple of questions I was hoping some of you are experienced enough to answer:

1. My current HU is an Alpine CDA-7998. When I bought it, it was considered a top notch SQ head unit. From what I have read, I definitely want/need IMPRINT to help me tune my system correctly. Do you think I would be better off keeping the CDA-7998 and adding on an IMPRINT processor like a 650 (sorry, forgot the exact model number) or will I get better results by buying the CDA-9887 and rent the IMPRINT kit from Crutchfield? What I want is SQ, i.e. a flat response, correct imaging and time correction, and correct x-over points.

My front stage is passive, 3-way (Focal 165-VR3), so I have no chance of going active and keeping the subwoofer. No speakers connected in rear doors. Sub is a JL 12W7 in the trunk. JL Amp 300/2 (150W x 2) for the fronts and Soundstream Rubicon (1 x 1000W) for the sub.

2. My second question revolves around another head unit you can IMPRINT, the IDA-X100. Assuming the IMPRINTability (new word?) is the same as with the CDA-9887, what kind of SQ differences would I be looking at, assuming the IDA-X100 is not in the same league as the CDA-9887, SQ wise? Keep in mind, however, that most of the listening I do is from MP3 (320kbps) or lossless (AAC), and the IDA-X100 has the distinct advantage that it can pull files from your IPOO digitally and then use the internal Burr Brown DAC to convert to analog while in the CDA-9887 you are stuck with getting an analog signal which was converted inside the IPOO.... 

As far as pre-out voltages, they would both be 4V since adding the IMPRINT module to the IDA-X100 bumps it up from 2V.

Thanks for any constructive feedback.


----------



## sonicnirvana

trainman0978 said:


> Should I leave my deck set on the 2 way or 3 way switch? ( left it the way it was from the factory)



Welcome aboard. Yeah there is not a ton of info on this thing yet.  But that seems to be the big question since this thing came out 3way/2way. I and many others have had issues with Imprint in 3 way mode, and some have claimed they have blown their tweeters because of it. rsvchad is the first person I know of that has had success with 3 way mode. I was running 2way for quite a while with Imprint and was very impressed. I just upgraded my drivers and since they were raw drivers, I elected to go 3 way/active. They sound great, but I sure would love to run imprint again to get that awesome sound stage, and rsvchad has given me hope it may work... 

If you are happy with 2 way leave it alone. Converting to 3 way just may not be worth it if Imprint doesn't work. Then you will have to change it back.


----------



## trainman0978

Yeah okay. I kinda figured as much , I just didn't wanna be selling myself short with th imprint. The JL comps are supposed to have some sort of tweeter protection device built into the crossover to keep it from blowing. I wonder if I should just try it and see. Maybe on my day off this weekend. It is even worth attempting? I mean the worst is I would have to just end up running the imprint twice. along with pulling the deck a few times... If the results are nothing dramatically different then I wont even bother. I dunno.


----------



## ariesnps

Just a quick question: does imprint have any effect on the overall sound quality even if I turn off the MultEq? Because I feel it does


----------



## kaigoss69

I wanted to chime in and thank you all for this interesting and informative thread. I too am contemplating buying this head unit as I want my system to sound as good as possible and I can't do the tuning myself, even if I had an EQ.

Right now I have an Alpine CDA-7995 which is a great head unit but it obviously lacks the equalizer and IMPRINT capabilities. One concern I have is the SQ with an Ipod connected through Ainet. I understand this is an analog connection and it will not use the Alpines superior DAC but rather the one on the Ipod. I am planning on running lossless or high bit rate MP3, so the question is am I limiting my SQ by the Ipod connection? In contrast, the CDA-9886 and IDA-X100 units from Alpine allow a digital USB connection to the Ipod, so the Alpine would be doing the digital to analog conversion which I think is better. But then, you'd have to take into account those head unit's ability to produce a clean and strong signal to the RCAs.... So what do you think would give better SQ:

CDA-9887 with Ipod connected through Ainet (analog)

or

CDA-9886 or IDA-X100 with Ipod connected through USB (digital)

assuming a lossless music source?

My system consists of:

CDA-7995 (head unit)
Focal 165 VR3 (3-way front stage)
Infinity Perfect VQ 12 (2) (subs in 2.5 cu. ft. sealed enclosure)
JL Audio 300/2 (amp for front stage)
Soundstream Rubicon 1000-2 (amp for subs)

Thanks, I would appreciate any constructive comments.


----------



## kaigoss69

I wanted to chime in and thank you all for this interesting and informative thread. I too am contemplating buying this head unit as I want my system to sound as good as possible and I can't do the tuning myself, even if I had an EQ.

Right now I have an Alpine CDA-7995 which is a great head unit but it obviously lacks the equalizer and IMPRINT capabilities. One concern I have is the SQ with an Ipod connected through Ainet. I understand this is an analog connection and it will not use the Alpines superior DAC but rather the one on the Ipod. I am planning on running lossless or high bit rate MP3, so the question is am I limiting my SQ by the Ipod connection? In contrast, the IDA-X100 unit from Alpine allows a digital USB connection to the Ipod, so the Alpine would be doing the digital to analog conversion which I think is better. But then, you'd have to take into account the head unit's ability to produce a clean and strong signal to the RCAs.... I am sure the 9887 has higher quality components, right? So what do you think would give better SQ:

CDA-9887 with Ipod connected through Ainet (analog)

or

IDA-X100 with Ipod connected through USB (digital)

assuming a lossless music source?

Both units allow imprinting so I am assuming that I can achieve similar if not identical results on the processing side.

My system consists of:

CDA-7995 (current head unit)
Focal 165 VR3 (3-way front stage)
Infinity Perfect VQ 12 (2) (subs in 2.5 cu. ft. sealed enclosure)
JL Audio 300/2 (amp for front stage)
Soundstream Rubicon 1000-2 (amp for subs)

Thanks, I would appreciate any constructive comments.


----------



## Canadian

*OK people, I need to know who out there has noticed inner ear pain after listening to this deck at high, yet reasonable volume? *


----------



## placenta

Canadian said:


> *OK people, I need to know who out there has noticed inner ear pain after listening to this deck at high, yet reasonable volume? *


Thats your speakers and placement mostly.


----------



## Canadian

Considering this deck was installed in two entirely different vehicles with two entirely different sets of speakers and amps (one entirely factory) and the problem existed in both situations, the deck being the only common component, the odds are it's something with the deck. Tweaks to both EQ's, defeat on/off, CD loaded, not loaded, ipod connected, unconnected, and the problem was still there, I have a gut feeling there's something wrong the some of the units that come out of Alpine's factory. 

I'm very interested to hear of any other users of the CDA-9887 who have had a similar experience.


----------



## hugo23

Hi guys, this is my first post  
Well, I can see that the users of this combo are happy with the results. I have a Pioneer 880, and before I bought this, I was wondering if I should wait for the Alpine (hadn't been relased yet) or save some ( or a lot  ) more money for a DRZ9255 (I hate to live in a city where a removable faceplate is SO necessary ). 

When I did the Automatic EQ and TA with the 880 I didn't like it at all, seems like it add some kind of echo or something, a very unnatural sound, the subwoofer level was turned very down like you describe in the Alpine. Although there are some things that I liked, the better response in the mid bass and the higher soundstage (I have mids and tweets in a low position).

My experience with the Automatic calibration in the Pioneer made me doubt about the Alpine ( I know it's not the same thing ) but now I see that most of the reviews agree that it does a good job, better than the one an inexperienced fanatic like me could achive. I hope that one day I can listen to a system with this combo and see how it sounds for me.

Thanks for the review!

P.D. Other than the Automatic calibration, I'm very happy with the Pioneer


----------



## Just-Jeep

Canadian said:


> *OK people, I need to know who out there has noticed inner ear pain after listening to this deck at high, yet reasonable volume? *


Could literally be a million different things causing this


----------



## Bumpin'Buick

hugo23 said:


> Hi guys, this is my first post
> Well, I can see that the users of this combo are happy with the results. I have a Pioneer 880, and before I bought this, I was wondering if I should wait for the Alpine (hadn't been relased yet) or save some ( or a lot  ) more money for a DRZ9255 (I hate to live in a city where a removable faceplate is SO necessary ).
> 
> When I did the Automatic EQ and TA with the 880 I didn't like it at all, seems like it add some kind of echo or something, a very unnatural sound, the subwoofer level was turned very down like you describe in the Alpine. Although there are some things that I liked, the better response in the mid bass and the higher soundstage (I have mids and tweets in a low position).
> 
> My experience with the Automatic calibration in the Pioneer made me doubt about the Alpine ( I know it's not the same thing ) but now I see that most of the reviews agree that it does a good job, better than the one an inexperienced fanatic like me could achive. I hope that one day I can listen to a system with this combo and see how it sounds for me.
> 
> Thanks for the review!
> 
> P.D. Other than the Automatic calibration, I'm very happy with the Pioneer



tcguy did the auto eq/ta with his 880 a while back and didn't like it apparently, and just recently did it again and he was very pleased with it. Maybe give it another shot.


----------



## hugo23

Bumpin'Buick said:


> tcguy did the auto eq/ta with his 880 a while back and didn't like it apparently, and just recently did it again and he was very pleased with it. Maybe give it another shot.


I've done it more than once. The first time I did it, I had my drivers in kick panels, and I did it again when I moved them into the doors. The result with the speakers in the doors is better, but I still have the feeling that something is wrong, it just sound unnatural to me. The result is better for some kind of music, good recordings sound good to me, but the ones that are not that good (but is music that I like), mmm... let's say that it gets worst.

Maybe I'm to used to the sound that hasn't been properly calibrated, and actually I don't like whow it is suposed to be  What do you think?


----------



## fastfreddy7

I run mine at a volume level of 14 all the time, sometimes 16 with no problems.


----------



## rsvchad

I've been out of town for a few days, but in my absence I had our rep look into the questions regarding 3-way operation and IMPRINT. He did not have a specific answer for me, but knows that one of thier demo vehicles is using a 9887 with a PDX amp running a set of SPX components actively without the passives. He was going to check into the setup further and get back to me after he can discuss it with their head trainer.


----------



## Mattr!x

...howdy folks discovered this forum when searching for answers..... cant find any in oz!!!

i've spoken to Alpine Australia and they say "it is NOT advisable to use imprint with a 3way active setup"

btw anyone hear a beep after you press next track on disc/tuner?? mainly in active setups as the passive crossovers however simple stifle the audio and hide the beep (i can still hear it faintly)

main question - - when running imprint should you hear the subwoofer doing the same test tone as the speakers>>>>>?>? ie wooop wooop!

when i run imprint the subwoofer is silent and i don't know if it has been tuned??

thoughts????

cheers

Matt


----------



## dsg74

Anyone try Imprint with a 4-way active system? I'd be running the sub output on the HU to the midbass amp and the output in that amp out to the sub amp using the two amps crossovers to split frequencies. I'm guessing that time alignment wouldn't be perfect, but with the EQ and phase adjustments it should still be OK. After reading through this thread it seems people should be setting their amp gains like normal then back them off a bit before running Imprint. This way max volume from the HU is available after Imprint. Am I right? Has turning the sub output and gains down before running Imprint then boosting after helped with the lack of bass? If not, has anyone tried using something like an Epicenter or Bass Cube? Thanks.


----------



## sonicnirvana

rsvchad said:


> I've been out of town for a few days, but in my absence I had our rep look into the questions regarding 3-way operation and IMPRINT. He did not have a specific answer for me, but knows that one of thier demo vehicles is using a 9887 with a PDX amp running a set of SPX components actively without the passives. He was going to check into the setup further and get back to me after he can discuss it with their head trainer.


I have run some more tests with active 3Way and now am pretty convinced it doesn't work right. First, just for safety, I used my amp XO to make sure my tweeters didn't get fried. Than ran another Imprint with active. What happened is that it went through its normal thing, FL, FR, RL, RR, LS, RS. Here is where it was strange. When it was doing FL, sound was coming from both the midbass and the tweeter at the same time. Same for FR. Then when it went to do RL and RR, nothing at all came out! LS and RS worked normally. It then skipped the RL and RR for subsequent passes.

What I thought it should do was the FL and FR should only be the mid basses. The RL and RR should be only the tweeters. The subs were OK. I think this is a problem. How can it time align the tweeters seperately if it doesn't play them without the mids?

Finally I think it sounded pretty bad. The imaging was actually really good, but the tonality was off. The bass was thin and boomy. The high end was killing me. Sounded like an ice pick in my ears. I think it sounds MUCH better when I run Imprint with passive XO. Nice tight bass. Smooth high end, and I can crank it without pain. Of course that is not what I want to do, and I think this HU is not coming to its full potential that it could reach with 3 way. Can you imagine how good the imaging would be if it did the tweeter separately from the mids? Anyway I am torn between going back to passive and Imprint, or active and tuned manually. Soundstage is definately much better with imprint, but I get better overall sound in active mode without it.


----------



## MadMaxSE-L

I haven't tried Imprint yet on mine, but I did finally get my sub hooked up this weekend - and I am really disapointed...

I didn't have time to really do anything exept hook everything up, but my sub output is really lacking to say the least. I have a TC2000 sub in a 2.0cu.ft. sealed box powered by an Eclipse XA4000 bridged. The sub should be seing ~ 350w rms on each voice coil, so about 700w rms to the whole thing:

*I CAN BARELY HEAR THE F'ING SUB!!!*. 

I have the sub level on the headunit turned all the way up, and the gains on the amp are set about 3/4 up; bass boost at 0db, crossovers on amp are not being used (ranged far away from headunit crossovers since they can't be defeated). 

When I turn the volume on the headunit to about 25, the clipping light on the sub amp starts filckering - if I keep turning the headunit up, _BOTH _amps starts making crackling noises through the speakers and the sub amp shuts off . 

I have another XA4000 that is bridged pushing my DLS Iridium 6.2 midbasses/ Blaupunkt vc100 tweeters through the stock Blau passives, and I swapped that amp out to push the sub and let the sub amp push the fronts, and the smae exact problem came about on the other amp. I am totally confused...

Any one experienced this w/ their 9887 or other headunit??? I have not yet been able to make adjsutmetns to the headunit, but I don't think it's going to help unless I have something setup wrong...

-Matt


----------



## sonicnirvana

The only thing I can think of is to do a full reset on the HU. Take off the faceplate and press the little switch with a sharp pointed object. Worth a try. I had an old Alpine HU that would go nutty every once in a while and a reset would bring it back. Same thing, no bass... FWIW I can easily shake my rear view mirror with my 9887 and a single 10" sub with 250Watts no problem, so it *can* work.


----------



## MadMaxSE-L

sonicnirvana said:


> The only thing I can think of is to do a full reset on the HU. Take off the faceplate and press the little switch with a sharp pointed object. Worth a try. I had an old Alpine HU that would go nutty every once in a while and a reset would bring it back. Same thing, no bass...


Maybe. I just know these full range Class D Eclipse amps do some nasty things when they start clipping 

I realize that 750w rms is not really "pushing" the TC like it should be, but it should really be enough to get fairly loud and at LEAST keep up with the front - which it will not do right now...

-Matt


----------



## placenta

MadMaxSE-L said:


> get my sub hooked up this weekend - and I am really disapointed...
> 
> *I CAN BARELY HEAR THE ****ING SUB!!!*.
> 
> I have the sub level on the headunit turned all the way up, and the gains on the amp are set about 3/4 up; bass boost at 0db, crossovers on amp are not being used (ranged far away from headunit crossovers since they can't be defeated).


Welcome to my world when I first hooked up my sub. Except that I use some bass boost on sub amp to get it acceptable.


----------



## sonicnirvana

Mattr!x said:


> main question - - when running imprint should you hear the subwoofer doing the same test tone as the speakers>>>>>?>? ie wooop wooop!
> 
> when i run imprint the subwoofer is silent and i don't know if it has been tuned??



Yeah, you definately should hear it and it should be almost as loud as the other test tones. Double check your wiring to make sure you are using the right outputs.


----------



## Mattr!x

ye thats wat i thought.... everything works tho with imprint off..... ie sub output..

imprint picks up the subwoofer and i do have output but during the tuning there is NO test tone from the sub.....

strange.......

the researching continues...


----------



## trainman0978

Mattr!x said:


> ye thats wat i thought.... everything works tho with imprint off..... ie sub output..
> 
> imprint picks up the subwoofer and i do have output but during the tuning there is NO test tone from the sub.....
> 
> strange.......
> 
> the researching continues...



Mine did the same thing. I could hear sounds coming from the 4 corners, but not the subs. But the first time I listened to it after tuning, the sub was working. Dunno ???


----------



## sonicnirvana

I am beginning to wonder if there are different firmware version for these HU's. That might explain it. Or different version of the Imprint SW.


----------



## quality_sound

When you ran Imprint did you have everything flat (levels, gains, etc?)? Maybe going through setup with everything low will give you more wiggle room after tuning or it might change HOW it's tuning.


----------



## trainman0978

This is a post of mine of on the SMD forum, concerning the last time I ran the kit and the little "tweaks" I made to test out some theories that I read on here and some other sites... I haven't ran the imprint again after this. 

http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/index.php?showtopic=19122


" Alright. I went out there this morning and did a couple of little tweaks and ran the imprint again. First, I lowered the gain down considerably on my alpine sub woofer amp, and then I lowered both channels on the sundown just a tiny bit. Then I set all four crossover boxes for the JL comps to +1.5db for the tweeters , they all have a built in switch to adjust on the fly. Afterwards I ran the imprint setup, and after calibration I went back and set the alpine amp back where I had it before I put this deck in, and I lowered the tweeter settings back down to -1.5db on the crossover boxes. I also turned the fader setting to 1 notch towards the rear. I left the sundown as it was. This made it perfect. The imprint ( from what I read and experienced ) yesterday , seems to really tone the bass down from the subs, and sends it into the full range ( comps in my case ), and it really likes for you to hear all the treble you can stand. By "tricking it" into thinking that I had very little sub output and a whole bunch of high frequency power for the test and then going back and correcting the it afterwards, I think I have it right where I want it. The installers at my local audio shop seem to agree. It is super clean and full, and it is even more so today F*****IN SWEET !!!!!! I could have never got it this good. One of the best things is the "ssssss" you hear from the tweeters in most systems is gone, and the bass sounds really tight and at the same time, kinda boomy if that is how it was meant to heard in a particular song. This chit rocks.


ALPINE FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## trainman0978

sonicnirvana said:


> I am beginning to wonder if there are different firmware version for these HU's. That might explain it. Or different version of the Imprint SW.


I just bought my imprint kit in march form Al-Eds.com based in southern california. That was the only place I could even find it. Three weeks ago the had 13 or 14 kits in stock. I would think those were the latest edition out....


----------



## quality_sound

Guys, just a heads up, with the W505 you get FULL MANUAL CONTROL of the Imprint processor, including access to BOTH Alpine generated curves.


----------



## arigato

Hello to everybody from Russia. Got the kit, still looking for the quiet surrounding to use it correctly. Meantime, I've got question that seems still unclear to me after reading all the topics here.

I have passive x-overs at front (mids and tweater, DLS R6A, with their x-overs) and an amp, Sub with an amp, and nothing at rear at all.

I see here that there's no good results using it in a 3-WAY mode... But when I tried to use the kit in 4.2 way, it failed saying error exactly at the moment of playing to the rear speakers, which are absent.
And whatever location I choose, it will need to go through all the speakers, including rear ones, right? OK, let switch HU into 3-WAY mode.

Now: do you think is it possible to the the system to see that I have mids and highs in the same time combined at the first output, "front", called "Mid Range Speaker", and nothing at all at "High Range Speaker"? Can it build the tonal range accordingly, or it will be failed thinking that I got no Highs at all?

I see the problem might be here: lots of people really connect mids and highs separately to "front" and "rear" outputs, as it says in the manual (and so tweaters are fried) - but what if not? What if I simply use passive x-overs as described above? Any success?

Or, should I (damn!) install the rear speakers (hate it!) to get the whole procedure correctly in 4.2-way?!

Or, if I still use existing configuration in 4.2-way and get "error code 002 - channel undetected and will be skipped" for rear channels - does that mean it will REALLY skip missing rear channels during next measurement?

Thanks a lot.

Cheers.

BTW: I got Subwoofer amplifier fried exactly after first calibration attempts. It was MacAudio Z2200 (bridged) with Herz 250 sub. Changed the amp to Fusion 9002, this one is playing perfectly for the moment... Will see would it be alive after the calibration...


----------



## arigato

P.S.

I've got Imprint CD-ROM ver. 1.1.1. Is this the latest one? Files there are from September 12th 2007 latest.

What's yours?


----------



## nismos14

quality_sound said:


> Guys, just a heads up, with the W505 you get FULL MANUAL CONTROL of the Imprint processor, including access to BOTH Alpine generated curves.


Is that for sure???


----------



## quality_sound

nismos14 said:


> Is that for sure???



That's how it looks in the manual. Unfortunately the manual is on CD. If someone can accept a large .pdf and host it I'll email it to them.


----------



## arigato

quality_sound said:


> That's how it looks in the manual. Unfortunately the manual is on CD. If someone can accept a large .pdf and host it I'll email it to them.


can you upload it onto sendspace.com?


----------



## quality_sound

I don't know if I'll be able to access it from work (gov't computer) but I can try when I get home tonight.


----------



## nismos14

So w505 + pxa-h100 = active + TONS of adjustability, maybe?


----------



## quality_sound

nismos14 said:


> So w505 + pxa-h100 = active + TONS of adjustability, maybe?


I WOULD say tons except you either get a 5-ban P-EQ or a 7-band G-EQ. Some people are ok with that. I like more.


----------



## nismos14

hmm I am confused, total control over the imprint = adjustability of all 500+ bands? I'm not sure that I find any data that supports the idea that hte w505 + pxa-h100 can run active. Any verification on that?


----------



## arigato

Finally confused: measure goes well, testing all the speakers, and... the process stops at 99%, spinning circle is on near measure, and this is never ends.

I've been waiting few times for 20-30 minutes at this stage... No result - measuring, 99%, that's it.

Am I alone? 

I got fresh install of XP SP2, and nothing more in it. If somebody could share Imprint ver. 1.1 (mine is 1.1.1) installation, or later than 1.1.1, it will be very very very helpful - this might be software problem. If it's a problem to upload to a free hosting - please let me know, I can find out FTP solution.

Thanks a lot.


----------



## quality_sound

nismos14 said:


> hmm I am confused, total control over the imprint = adjustability of all 500+ bands? I'm not sure that I find any data that supports the idea that hte w505 + pxa-h100 can run active. Any verification on that?


You don't get 500 bands but I didn't think the Imprint actually used that many. If that's the case then you lose some EQ ability but have control of everything else.


----------



## quality_sound

arigato said:


> can you upload it onto sendspace.com?


Looking at sendspace all I can do is send it to people, not upload it. any other ideas?

ok, i'm just a retard: http://www.sendspace.com/file/3gpwrd


----------



## arigato

Going to be mad with this toy.

OK, I learned that I have to have 4.2-way with passive x-overs and 2-ways front. I even bought and installed rear speakers, thinking that they were the reason of Imprint measurement hold at the end of the process. None. Same story. My patience breaks after 30 minutes of waiting... Application keep kind of "measuring" at 99% - forever, doesn't even react on kit's processor detach!!!

Please help! No support here in Russia, nobody knows actually what to do with it...

All I'm asking is - what is your version of Imprint and if it's different from 1.1.1 could you please share the CD contents... And what was your timing of measure procedure?

Please...


----------



## sonicnirvana

I have the same version. It takes about 7 minutes to do the first pass of all the speakers (maybe 1 min per speaker), then 4-5 mine per pass after that. Depending on how many passes (positions) it will take more or less time. It takes about 35-40 min with all 6 passes on mine total.


----------



## arigato

sonicnirvana said:


> I have the same version. It takes about 7 minutes to do the first pass of all the speakers (maybe 1 min per speaker), then 4-5 mine per pass after that. Depending on how many passes (positions) it will take more or less time. It takes about 35-40 min with all 6 passes on mine total.


Thank you for reply!!!

Mine takes about 2-3 minutes per speaker... I use 2 gHz Intel MacBook with fresh install WinXP SP2 (bootcamp install, no MacOS in that moment). I tried another Mac with Parallels (Win over MacOS) - same result. Works till 99%. And I never ever heard about any sort of USB incompatibility in Intel Macs, more, some magazines call it as a best PC overall (when it has Windows in it)...

Tried to change Imprint's USB to mini USB cable to a shorter one - still doesn't help.

Reseted the HU. Same story.

HU and Imprint processor seems fine - completely new, I doubt there might be a hardware problem there because overall the process is going on with that special calibration sounds... till that mystical 99%.

I only noticed today that my front amplifier has input level almost at minimum. It sounds, however, quite loud. Should I set it somewhere at the middle? I tried to do so with the regular music tonight, and sound became incredibly loud even at Volume at 15....

I also noticed that USB driver from the CD adds actually a USB-to-serial function, which (correct me if I'm wrong) sets up as COM-port in Windows. That pseudo COM-port - checked properties - has basic 9600 bauds speed (probably by default) - is this normal?


----------



## sonicnirvana

I cannot vouch for the Mac setup, since I am using a Wintel laptop (actually Winamd). I kind of doubt that the USB is the problem though, since I don't think it is doing I/O when you are at 99%. It should just be calculating. So it is reading data from the the little black box, then calculating. At the very end it lets you upload the results, but you are not getting that far.

Sorry, I know next to nothing about Macs, but I have heard nothing but good about parallels. Is there any way you can get your hands on a non mac pc to do a test?


----------



## arigato

sonicnirvana said:


> I cannot vouch for the Mac setup, since I am using a Wintel laptop (actually Winamd). I kind of doubt that the USB is the problem though, since I don't think it is doing I/O when you are at 99%. ..


When I used Parallels, I saw USB activity ("led" at the bar), and it was always flashing fast even at the end, transferring some data.

Strange thing also: after checking all 6 speakers, program is going back to the first one, FL, flashing it, somewhere at 84-85%, but never send any sound to it. So it looks like this: FL is flashing, status bar coming from 84% to 99%. Is this the same at your system?

Anyway, the only solution for me seems to find some PC...
And maybe to play with bitrate at that pseudo-COM port.

UPD: I've just heard from IT people that Bootcamp at Mac is not 100% guarantee decision for the peripherals. Hope that's the reason.


----------



## Q-Authority

*Long time Denon Audyssey/MultEQ user*

Well, I've almost gone blind reading all the 9887 and 9887 + Imprint posts, but i finally made it through all of them. I'll go through what there is on the PXE-HU650(?) later.
I was curious to see just what kind of results people would get with these things and what their reactions would be. From all I have read the reactions appear to be about what I expected. Having had a Denon 4806 home receiver w/Audyssey/MultEQ (home equivalent of Imprint) I can tell you that it can be a tricky thing to refine perfectly, but if you stick with it the results can be incredible.
The following are some things I have learned from my home setup plus some comments regarding issues that are somewhat different in the auto environment that may help you (or turn you off completely):

a) Gain settings (general): the general home receiver that has this software doesn't have input gains per se (the receiver and amp are one unit and perfectly matched already), except generally for the sub; since various car amps have different input gain sensitivities, you will need to be very careful with how you set your input gains as this can have a huge effect on various parameters after you have run Imprint; if you are having volume or bass level issues try changing your gain settings and run Imprint again;

b) bass output w/Imprint: don't feel too bad, as a lot of home users have run into the same problem; there may be some things you can do, but since you have limited space and can't move the sub to different locations that easily you will be limited in your options; firstly, make sure your sub's phase is correctly set and even if it seems to be try running Imprint with it reversed and see if that helps; secondly, try moving the sub to a different location if you can; I have moved the sub in my home setup several times and the results can vary drastically; thirdly, make sure your amp (and everything else for that matter) has a proper power supply and ground (you’d be surprised at how that might change the final results); fourthly, disable any amp xovers before running Imprint; it is not wise to run one xover on top of another if you can help it; fifthly; you can cheat a little bit as others have pointed out earlier; start with a low to mid gain setting originally, then after Imprint try increasing the sub gain on the amp and if necessary use the sub's xover to further tweak and control this increased output;

c) Imprint xover points: Alpine needs to get the 3-way/2-way issue straightened out and just plain disable 3-way if they cannot get it to work right (regarding the use of tweeters or rear speakers depending on how you're running things); home systems don't generally have this issue as most people will be running speakers that contain at least some passive xovers for their tweeter and the only rear speakers will be for multi-channel use; that being said, I do know that issues can arise when Imprint sees a large dip in the frequency response during setup; say your mid bass speakers have a big dip (about 3-6db or so) at around 100hz, but then recover and extend nicely to 60hz or so; Imprint may recognize the 3-6db dip as the lower extension point of the mids and set the xover at 100hz, where the dip occurs; that's what happens in the home system, but fortunately you can override many settings such as xover, speaker gain, time alignment, etc. on the home systems thus avoiding this setting mistake; not having this capability in the auto version, except for maybe on the 650, would be a bit of a let down for me; therefore you may need to make sure you don't have any of these dips in the wrong places to start with, but hopefully Imprint has better/newer software that can recognize this and work around it; also, just because Imprint has set the xover at a certain point, don’t think it has not tried to eq the entire frequency spectrum of the speaker(s) in question; it will gave ate least on the home version anyway;

d) Time alignment: I don't see there being as many issues with this, since it is a relatively easy issue to measure, except that when running passive xovers Imprint will most likely take the middle distance between the mid and tweeter, what it sees as the actual speaker distance, and use this to set the TA for that channel/speaker; another reason why speaker alignment/placement may be critical;

e) general speaker placement, alignment, wiring, etc.: I have definitely found that Audyssey/Imprint works on the golden rule of Location, Location, Location; it will not work miracles (relatively so, anyway); it cannot make up for bad speakers, bad location, bad wiring (speaker, power, ground, etc.); you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear (at least not yet anyway); that being said, however, it will absolutely reward perfection in work you have done up to this point and can definitely help those who cannot afford such immaculate luxuries or are limited otherwise; much of what has been discussed on this thread is the same that is heard on the home forums regarding this software;

f) head unit amp: if you don't need it, turn it off; if it is anything like the Direct modes on home units, it will make a difference; more so as the total system is upgraded; I always use this mode at home and can fortunately use it for all but DPL, DD and DTS;

g) running Imprint: it sounds like they steer you towards using certain mike placements with Imprint; they also suggest certain placements with the home unit; I learned to ignore this early on and obtained much better results; unfortunately, the driver's seat is pretty much all the way to the left and you can't really use the same placements that you do at home, which allow for better center imagining; that being said, however, it certainly wouldn't hurt to try various different mike patterns; I do though assume that when Alpine allows you to select listening positions after setup, they are assuming that you placed the mike at the positions they asked you to, if they were available; that's all well and fine, but are you ever going to really sit in those other positions, ever; if not use the driver's seat for the initial mike position (I assume this is what Imprint asks you to do) and then use various patterns across the front seating area; although I don't think Alpine's Imprint explains this, Imprint will try to measure the general acoustical environment of the car as a whole, if it is anything like the home version; generally the more mike placements the better; **remember the following: if Imprint is at all like the home version, mike position (not placement around the inside of the car) is CRITICAL; sitting in the car while the program is running will ruin the measurements (I know your body will affect things later, but try it and you'll find out it's not such a good idea); make sure it is very quite when you run it (VERY QUIET); find a quite country setting if possible, since sound reflections, etc. in a garage may alter it; if you run it with the windows all up (top up, etc.) then that is how it will best sound afterwards; yes, I am afraid that rolling down windows, lowering tops, etc., afterwards will definitely affect the sound, so keep this in mind when you run Imprint; I would possibly go so far as to suggest removing at least the driver's seat headrest when running Imprint so as to remove its interference; the home version tells you specifically not to place the mike immediately next the back of the seat/couch, etc.; I personally use a small camping tripod, about 8 inches high when in use, and place this along the back edge of the main couch at ear height and with the mike extended forward so as to be as close to the exact location of my ears when seated;

h) Imprint results: depending upon your initial listening tastes, you may or may not prefer some of the changes Imprint has made; this can be for a myriad number of reasons, some of which could be from issues I have already mentioned; this is a really complex software scheme and with many variables that it cannot either control or possibly deal with; yes, it would be nice if you could vary various settings after running Imprint, but because of the immense data storage/processing required that just is not possible at this time (at least that's what home Audyssey reps will tell you); adding more and more processing and memory would probably run the price up too high right now; I am hoping though that they eventually come out with higher grade, more expensive units later on; even when all else is as perfect as one might normally be expected to makes things, you still might not be happy with the results only because your listening requisites are substantially different from that of the ideal; you might as well get used to it, since they can't possibly please everyone; and everyone knows what a bunch of deaf lunkheads car audio people are (ha, ha); but if it comes out half right, as many have already noticed, you will hear things in the music that you have never noticed before and your listening preferences just might start to change;

i) my experience: I guess I might have listed this first as many have probably dozed off, logged out, or gone comatose from my ramblings; I have run the home Audyssey setup on my Denon 4806 more times than you could possibly believe; somewhere well into the hundreds (I am not kidding!); it took me about 8 months before I eventually found nirvana; that was after taking a huge leap of faith and adding an exotic power conditioner and power cords that alone probably cost more than most people's entire systems; but at the end of that time I can tell you that the final results were truly amazing; I never imagined that music could possibly sound that good; and wouldn’t you know it, 2 months later I had to move because the owners were moving back in; I went from having an excellent room to work with to a mediocre one, and after having spent over a year of trying at the new residence have settled for what I could manage, knowing that the room was the final obstacle and there was nothing more I could do about it;

Furthermore: each and every time I ran Audyssey I used a selected set of discs to determine just how much I had either improved or messed up from the previous attempt; I used two cds, two dts discs, two sacd discs, two dvd-a discs, two dts video discs, and finally two dd video discs; the goal was that all of them would eventually have pretty decent sound; this isn't something I initially did, as I am not a glutton for punishment, but I soon found that while certain discs sounded great, others sounded terrible and I knew the recordings weren't that bad; I have never had a chance to discuss this with anyone who has run the software anywhere near the number of times I have, but I suspect that there are general acoustical issues in various recordings that are affected differently; but I can tell you if all is perfectly done they can be overcome with absolutely astonishing results; the car environment may not necessarily allow for this, but I would imagine pretty decent results are capable; most people that hear my current home system are pretty impressed, but then they have never heard the very best it is capable of; I would guess that a convertible with a soft top might yield the best results, so everyone run out and buy a used Miata or something (ha, ha);

Enough said: personally I hope they revise this a bit, install it in a higher unit as well, and/or put it in a higher end standalone than the HU650 with actual rca inputs and features such as those found on the home units;

I probably had more to say but am brain numb and can't think straight anymore; if anyone has any questions on my ramblings, feel free to ask or just comment;


----------



## rsvchad

*Re: Long time Denon Audyssey/MultEQ user*



Q-Authority said:


> d) Time alignment: I don't see there being as many issues with this, since it is a relatively easy issue to measure, except that when running passive xovers Imprint will most likely take the middle distance between the mid and tweeter, what it sees as the actual speaker distance, and use this to set the TA for that channel/speaker; another reason why speaker alignment/placement may be critical;


One again let me reiterate regarding how IMPRINT/Audyssey uses time correction. YOU ARE NOT LIMITED TO SIMPLY THE NUMBER OF CHANNELS BEING USED! For example If you are using a front passive two-way system, a pair of rear speakers and a mono subwoofer, which is five channels. You still have 512 independent filter taps to work with. YOU ARE NOT limited to delay on front right, front left, rear right, rear left and subwoofer. Directly from the Audyssey site:

Time and Frequency correction:

The time domain is where many of the problems reside. Parametric and graphic equalizers can only correct for the frequency response and do so in a very coarse manner because they have limited resolution (bands). 
Further, whether they have fixed or adjustable bands it does not matter because bands cause phase problems that most people hear as "ringing" or "smearing." This is why, after thirty plus years of trying this method most people don't like the results and turn it off. 
How does MultEQ address time and frequency problems?
MultEQ filters start in the time domain. They are not just a few parametric bands. Instead they use several hundred points to represent the room response in both the frequency and time domains. The trick is to use enough filter points to get the needed resolution, but not so many that it overwhelms the processor inside the audio component. So, we came up with a way to reduce the number of points without sacrificing accuracy and a way to provide more filter power at lower frequencies where it is needed the most. MultEQ can correct 8 channels by using only a fraction of a single DSP chip. This gives you the best of both worlds: time and frequency correction. Result--room correction that works for the first time ever.


----------



## Q-Authority

rsvchad: I think I see what you are getting at, but I believe you have misconstrued what Audyssey is actually doing;

What my quoted reference was referring to is that in regards to time alignment Audyssey/Imprint will see a passive 2-way (etc.) as a single speaker in regards to time alignment and for that matter in regards to eq filtering as well. The 512 bands of filtering are used, per speaker, over the entire speaker bandwidth, regardless of the xover point that is selected. That is why one can reset xover points on the home version without consequence, if they are set incorrectly during setup.

Regarding the Audyssey quote: What they stated unfortunately merged a few areas into one and made it a bit confusing. Audyssey generally works with three main issues, time alignment (speaker delay), time domain (room reflections), and frequency response.

Time alignment: the easy one; the delay in response from all speakers is measured during their sweep(?) tone measurements and delays are assigned to properly place all speakers in relationship to the main seating position;

Time domain: Audyssey doesn't go over this in a lot of detail, and many people probably confuse it with time alignment, but generally it works with frequency response issues, being that Audyssey attempts to measure only the first frequency response from a particular speaker and not the successive reflections from around the room; they claim this reduces, or rids the room of such effects with Audyssey applied, but reviewers have found this not to be the case, although they do say it helps a little (it's simply pretty much impossible to do physically);

Frequency response: this is where the 512 filters/bands come into play; and yes the home version, depending upon the receiver, can work on up to 8 channels, but that is in a 7.1 mode such as DD and DTS 7.1, or the newer HD formats;

Overview: Audyssey cannot see through a passive xover and separate out speakers within that circuit (for any purpose), which seems to be what you implied; otherwise my home system would be screwed, as I have 4-way front/main speakers and Audyssey would soon run out of calculating power before it got to all my other speakers (a 7.1 setup), all of which are at least 2-way, except for the sub; Audyssey/Imprint sends a single sweep tone(?), during setup to each speaker box/circuit and treats it as a single speaker; there is no possible way for it to recognize it as anything else;


----------



## rsvchad

Q-Authority said:


> rsvchad: I think I see what you are getting at, but I believe you have misconstrued what Audyssey is actually doing;
> 
> What my quoted reference was referring to is that in regards to time alignment Audyssey/Imprint will see a passive 2-way (etc.) as a single speaker in regards to time alignment and for that matter in regards to eq filtering as well. The 512 bands of filtering are used, per speaker, over the entire speaker bandwidth, regardless of the xover point that is selected. That is why one can reset xover points on the home version without consequence, if they are set incorrectly during setup.
> 
> Regarding the Audyssey quote: What they stated unfortunately merged a few areas into one and made it a bit confusing. Audyssey generally works with three main issues, time alignment (speaker delay), time domain (room reflections), and frequency response.
> 
> Time alignment: the easy one; the delay in response from all speakers is measured during their sweep(?) tone measurements and delays are assigned to properly place all speakers in relationship to the main seating position;
> 
> Time domain: Audyssey doesn't go over this in a lot of detail, and many people probably confuse it with time alignment, but generally it works with frequency response issues, being that Audyssey attempts to measure only the first frequency response from a particular speaker and not the successive reflections from around the room; they claim this reduces, or rids the room of such effects with Audyssey applied, but reviewers have found this not to be the case, although they do say it helps a little (it's simply pretty much impossible to do physically);
> 
> Frequency response: this is where the 512 filters/bands come into play; and yes the home version, depending upon the receiver, can work on up to 8 channels, but that is in a 7.1 mode such as DD and DTS 7.1, or the newer HD formats;
> 
> Overview: Audyssey cannot see through a passive xover and separate out speakers within that circuit (for any purpose), which seems to be what you implied; otherwise my home system would be screwed, as I have 4-way front/main speakers and Audyssey would soon run out of calculating power before it got to all my other speakers (a 7.1 setup), all of which are at least 2-way, except for the sub; Audyssey/Imprint sends a single sweep tone(?), during setup to each speaker box/circuit and treats it as a single speaker; there is no possible way for it to recognize it as anything else;



That is exactly the opposite of what I implied. I was trying to get the point across that it doesn't matter to the software HOW the speakers are crossed over. There are 512 FIR filters period. They are at set points period. Look back in this thread at my previous posts regarding FIR filtering. I work inside the industry, I've sat through lectures and seminars on Audyssey and discussed the technology with Tomlinson Holman face-to-face on more than one occasion. I'm quite familiar with how Audyssesy works. I'm still ironing out the details on the 2-way/3-way debacle on the 9887 head unit, but I do have inside contacts at Alpine working to get me the answers.

So again, to clarify: Audyssey takes care of time alignment at each FIR filter point, not PER driver or per set of drivers crossed passively. I believe this means we are in agreement.


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## Q-Authority

rsvchad said:


> That is exactly the opposite of what I implied. I was trying to get the point across that it doesn't matter to the software HOW the speakers are crossed over. There are 512 FIR filters period. They are at set points period. Look back in this thread at my previous posts regarding FIR filtering. I work inside the industry, I've sat through lectures and seminars on Audyssey and discussed the technology with Tomlinson Holman face-to-face on more than one occasion. I'm quite familiar with how Audyssesy works. I'm still ironing out the details on the 2-way/3-way debacle on the 9887 head unit, but I do have inside contacts at Alpine working to get me the answers.
> 
> So again, to clarify: Audyssey takes care of time alignment at each FIR filter point, not PER driver or per set of drivers crossed passively. I believe this means we are in agreement.


That would be the first I have heard regarding the time alignment at each and every FIR filter point. They certainly don't go out of their way to explain that anywhere I have seen, but not surprising. I am no electrical engineer, but can handle white papers up to a point and have tried to read everything I can in regards to how Audyssey works. That one must have gotten by me. That is considerably more complex than what is generally understood and explains, to some degree, the inability for home units to handle more processing at this point.

That would definitely make for better time alignment in the car regardless of xover type and placement.

Its nice to hear from someone who delves into this stuff deeply. I would be very curious, as most would I am sure, to here what has to be said regarding the 2-way/3-way issue.

Personally, I just want a component piece with Audyssey that can be setup for either a complex 2-channel system or 5.1-6.1 multi-channel system, with user changeable xover points, speaker gains, time alignments (like the home version), and has rca inputs and outputs for all channels. I thought it was a bit wierd that this got introduced as sort of a lower end conversion piece to start with, instead of more audiophile. I would not think it should be difficult to include circuitry that would allow this and I would definitely be willing to pay more for a unit like this, knowing what it can do to a decent home system already.


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## sonicnirvana

rsvchad said:


> I'm still ironing out the details on the 2-way/3-way debacle on the 9887 head unit, but I do have inside contacts at Alpine working to get me the answers.


I, for one, am anxiously awaiting what you find out on this and appreciate you looking into this! I would love to used Imprint with 3 way.


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## rsvchad

sonicnirvana said:


> I, for one, am anxiously awaiting what you find out on this and appreciate you looking into this! I would love to used Imprint with 3 way.


I'm going out to the garage in 15-20 minutes. Stay tuned!


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## rsvchad

Just confirmed: Audyssey takes into account a two-way active set.

My set-up is as follows:
CDA-9887 tuned with IMPRINT kit
PDX-4.150 2 channels powering SPX17PRO mids, 2 channels powering SPX17PRO tweeters
PDX-1.1000 powering Type-R 12" DVC sub

My process:

I left the audyssey untouched from the last time I tuned the system, assuming at the time that it did take into account that it was running an active two-way front speaker system. 

I disconnected the right-hand side of the SPX set:


















I then wired up a "full-range" Boston CR57 bookshelf speaker capable of reproducing ~ 60Hz-20kHz and plugged it in first in place of the channel used for the tweeter:



















I then turned the stereo on and listened at the back of the car to the bookshelf speaker. Midrange frequencies were absolutely absent from the sound. Switching the bookshelf speaker over to the channel that normally drives the mid-bass speaker resulted in a sound with a complete absence of high frequencies.

In summation, Audyssey most definately takes into account if you are implementing a front two-way active system. It does NOT send unfiltered mid/high information to both outputs as surmised by some. The frequencies at which it cuts high frequencies to the mids and cuts lows to the tweeters is unknown as is the logic that IMPRINT uses to determine those parameters. Those of you worrying over the use of your active components while using IMPRINT can put your mind at ease.


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## Mattr!x

thats great news to a point i guess....

the main issue i see and read about is that in my situation im using focal front speakers the tweeters are designed for 5khz and up - Imprint im sure doesn't know what speaker im using and could say set it at 2khz and im then able blow up my tweeter (with enuf volume of course) and over time....... yes? maybe?

also that whenever i use active or speakers without a crossover (whether it be a cap or a complex network) you get a beep after every track change and so on.... i presume its the noise gate opening and closing the audio channel???? we have tried another new 9887 deck, checked all wiring and evan changed amplifiers.....

it is still there with going 2 way passive but the cap/xover mutes that high freq and you can't hear it as much.....

Imprint opens pandoras box thats for sure!

the current tune im running didn't evan send a signal to the subwoofer... ie woop woop so how it tunes that i dunno.... more issues!


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## sonicnirvana

rsvchad said:


> In summation, Audyssey most definately takes into account if you are implementing a front two-way active system. It does NOT send unfiltered mid/high information to both outputs as surmised by some.


I assume you mean this is the 3Way active that Alpine refers to, i.e. tweeter, mid bass in front, with subwoofer, all active. So why does it not do each speaker separately? On my system, it sends the first set of output to both the speakers simultaneously. The result is less than stellar. I have not hooked up WinMLS yet to see what the XO is set to when running active, and to see if it calculates the TA for the woofer and tweeter separately. I would think it should send the first output to the left tweeter, the next to the left midbass, then the right tweeter, right midbass, than the sub outs.


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## rsvchad

sonicnirvana said:


> I assume you mean this is the 3Way active that Alpine refers to, i.e. tweeter, mid bass in front, with subwoofer, all active.


Correct. 3-way active or 2-way active components with subwoofer.




sonicnirvana said:


> So why does it not do each speaker separately? On my system, it sends the first set of output to both the speakers simultaneously. The result is less than stellar.


Don't know. I'm hoping the head trainer or one of the engineers can shed some light soon.




sonicnirvana said:


> I have not hooked up WinMLS yet to see what the XO is set to when running active, and to see if it calculates the TA for the woofer and tweeter separately. I would think it should send the first output to the left tweeter, the next to the left midbass, then the right tweeter, right midbass, than the sub outs.


Once again, IMPRINT DOES NOT calculate time alignment per driver!!! IMPRINT utilizes finite impulse response filters over 512 bands that corrects for time, phase and level. Think of it this way: If you had a single speaker per channel that reproduced the full audio spectrum, Audyssey would still have the ability to time align 512 individual points seperately for that one speaker. This is important because this is ROOM CORRECTION and not simply speaker correction.


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## kaigoss69

Have you guys gotten any closer to deciphering the data files (Excel format, I believe) and being able to read the crossover points and slopes imprint picked for your set-ups??? (sorry, been gone for a while and I don't feel like weeding through 20-some pages of posts)


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## sonicnirvana

rsvchad said:


> The frequencies at which it cuts high frequencies to the mids and cuts lows to the tweeters is unknown as is the logic that IMPRINT uses to determine those parameters. Those of you worrying over the use of your active components while using IMPRINT can put your mind at ease.


Not sure I agree with this, if you don't know what XO freq it uses. It your tweeter can only go safely down to 3K, and imprint chooses 2K (which theoretically the tweeter would not respond well and cause imprint to not go that low), you could possibly damage your tweeter. Especially at higher volume levels. I noticed the chirps it uses don't sound as loud as how I often listen to my system, and the distortion caused by crossing too low may not be audible until the volume level is higher.


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## coold8

I can't get sound from Sirius after pluggin in the PXA-H100.

IVA-W505 -> PXA-H100 -> Sirius Connect (w/ SVCDOC1 into Sportster 4) SVCDOC1 ->

I cannot hear any audio from Sirius, all other sources fine, any ideas?


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## sonicnirvana

OK, I am starting to feel a bit better about this now. I ran some tests with Imprint setup with 3Way active. I then took the three outputs and plotted them with WinMLS. These outputs are directly from the HU, not the speakers. Keep in mind, the XO on the amps was bypassed when I ran imprint, allowing full frequency range to each speaker. There is one plot per output; tweeter, midbass and sub all on one graph. All plots are left channel only.

This one is with Imprint OFF, no EQ, just manually set XO. As you can see, sub is crossed at 100 (still experimenting  , and tweeters at 2,500:










Here is the same set of plots with Imprint ON. Again, this is straight from the HU RCA's. You can also see the EQ it has applied. Looks like the tweeter is still crossed at 2,500. Not so sure about what its doing to the sub. Also seem to be crossing the midbass pretty low, if at all  :










Here are both overlayed:










Finally, a test with the speakers connected, and using ECM8000 mic, driver seat position. Green is with Imprint ON, red is with it OFF and manually XO, no EQ. Interesting that Imprint likes less bass than I do (seems to be a common complaint). Also really boosted the top end, which you can really hear.











So, in conclusion, I agree with RSVCHAD. Doesn't seem to be dangerous at all for the tweets, at least in my case. I really haven't given it a good listening to (too busy running tests) so I will be interested to see how it sounds, since this is the first time I have run it with the amp XO bypassed. I have a feeling it will sound thin, but I can boost my sub amp and cut the tweeters amp as desired.


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## rsvchad

WOW! Nice in-depth review. Thanks Sonicnirvana. I wish I had the tools at home to do this.


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## kaigoss69

Wow, thank you for that! Interesting how imprint is bumping the frequencies at your crossover points but still falling short of achieving a relatively smooth response.

Makes me feel better about the 3-way Dynaudio set-up I am planning to put into my car within the next two weeks:

MD100 Tweeter
MD140/2 Mid
MW180 Bass (front doors)
MW160 Bass (rear doors)

Anyone know how I can integrate the rear door drivers into the imprint set-up? I will be running 2 Alpine PDX amps, a 4.150 for the lows and a 4.100 for the mids and tweets. Do I just split the woofer RCA coming from the head unit and feed it to both channels on the 4.150? Is it that simple?

Thanks, I am a relative newb when it comes to active set-ups and I'd appreciate any advice you can give me.


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## ZoNtO

Where did you place the mic for all the Imprint tests? Was it all from driver or from the actual seats that it shows on the software?


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## sonicnirvana

I ran it optimized for driver's sear. It asked for the following placements in this order:
1) Drivers seat, rear, middle
2) In between rear seats
3) Passenger seat
4) Driver seat, left, front
5) Driver seat, right, front
6) Driver seat, right, rear

I had a chance to listen to it a bit today. I have say the imaging, definition and spaciousness are pretty amazing. Sounds almost like I have rear fills, which I do not. Sounds stage is at leat 12" higher and wider than my manual tune. I had to drop the Treble to -2 and boost the Bass +3 to make it to my liking. Still sounds a tiny bit bright, almost harsh, making me not want to turn it up too loud (maybe that is a good thing  )

And one really weird, bad thing. I am getting distortion at fairly low level, say around 18-19. It sounds really bad, but only in very specific passages in certain songs. It doesn't happen in every song, but I must say it would be embarrasing if I was showing to someone. I may have to play around with the amp levels and try it again.


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## sonicnirvana

kaigoss69 said:


> Anyone know how I can integrate the rear door drivers into the imprint set-up? I will be running 2 Alpine PDX amps, a 4.150 for the lows and a 4.100 for the mids and tweets. Do I just split the woofer RCA coming from the head unit and feed it to both channels on the 4.150? Is it that simple?.


Yes, you can do that. The Imprint won't know what you are doing, and will just try to optimize the sound however it can. You will not have any volume control of the rear fills though, except through the amp. A lot of people like them down a bit from the fronts which you would have to do manually.


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## arigato

I did it. Imprint will work correctly only with Regional settings set for US (at least, I didn't check others). Mine was Russian, and as I told before it failed all the time at the end of measure process, holding at 99%. I have Russian Windows (it's hard to find not localized version here), anyway after one week of attempts I got it worked only when I set my Windows as American just by one click. Wow.

Note to Mac users: yes, Imprint operates fine in Parallels or Bootcamp. 2-3 times faster in Bootcamp, by the way.


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## arigato

And just one more question.

When I was fighting with all these things, I bought (by mistake actually) rear speakers. They are installed at the rear shelf (BWM 3), not inside rear doors (which is bad, I think)

They are off now, and I'm not sure shall I use them (doing new calibration, of course) or not. Does rear speakers add something? Does sound image stay at front and remain the same "natural" with rear speakers added? What about passengers at back seats, are they supposed to hear music from backside, or I have to move fading forward for them every time they are there?

Thanks and sorry for such a stupid question.


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## kaigoss69

sonicnirvana said:


> Yes, you can do that. The Imprint won't know what you are doing, and will just try to optimize the sound however it can. You will not have any volume control of the rear fills though, except through the amp. A lot of people like them down a bit from the fronts which you would have to do manually.


So I will hook one sub channel (say the left) up to the front woofers and one (the right) to the rear. Do you think imprint will still do the time correction correctly that way, i.e. will it recognize that the speakers on the left channel are closer to me than the ones on the right channel?

Also, my "woofers" are actually very capable of playing up to 500 Hz, and I would like them to, so do you think imprint will recognize that the drivers can go that high or will it shut them off say around 100 Hz since they are running off a dedicated "subwoofer" channel? 

Last question: I realize I would be using all available channels from the Alpine head just for my front stage, but would it be feasible to later add a sub, being fed off the pass through RCA from the PDX-4.150 amp ? Essentially, I could kick in the high pass filter on the PDX-5.150 so that the door-woofers don't get anything below say 60 Hz and then cross the add-on amp over at around 70 Hz. I think this could work....


----------



## argiex

kaigoss69 said:


> Have you guys gotten any closer to deciphering the data files (Excel format, I believe) and being able to read the crossover points and slopes imprint picked for your set-ups??? (sorry, been gone for a while and I don't feel like weeding through 20-some pages of posts)


I have found this:

Open the *.acb file using winrar.
Open the calibResults.xml file using notepad or a internet browser.

This is the info from the file:

_<Channel>1</Channel> 
<TrimLevel>8.220406</TrimLevel> 
<MEQTrimLevel>8.220406</MEQTrimLevel> 
<SpeakerType>SPEAKER_SMALL</SpeakerType> 
*<Delay>2.29166675</Delay> 
<Polarity>1</Polarity> 
<Crossover>40</Crossover> 
<CutoffFreq>30</CutoffFreq> 
<CutoffOrder>2</CutoffOrder> *
<scores href="#ref-3" /> 
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-4" /> 
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-5" /> 
<positionDelay href="#ref-6" /> 
<Level href="#ref-7" /> 
<TrimShift href="#ref-8" /> 
<mayBeLarge>false</mayBeLarge> 
<*selectedCrossover>40</selectedCrossover> *
<filterSampleRate>48000</filterSampleRate> 
<filterOffset>-9</filterOffset> 
</item>
- <item>
<Channel>2</Channel> 
<TrimLevel>7.233879</TrimLevel> 
<MEQTrimLevel>7.233879</MEQTrimLevel> 
<SpeakerType>SPEAKER_SMALL</SpeakerType> 
*<Delay>2.3125</Delay> 
<Polarity>1</Polarity> 
<Crossover>80</Crossover> 
<CutoffFreq>20</CutoffFreq> 
<CutoffOrder>2</CutoffOrder> *
<scores href="#ref-9" /> 
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-10" /> 
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-11" /> 
<positionDelay href="#ref-12" /> 
<Level href="#ref-13" /> 
<TrimShift href="#ref-14" /> 
<mayBeLarge>false</mayBeLarge> 
*<selectedCrossover>80</selectedCrossover> *
<filterSampleRate>48000</filterSampleRate> 
<filterOffset>-9</filterOffset>_ 

What I think is strange, is that the left component set is crossed at 40hz and the right at 80hz. This results in a lot of vibration in the left door. Maybe it is due to a dip in the freq. response at 70-80hz in the right midbass, and the Imprint software interpret this as the cutoff freq.

The cutoff order I don´t think it reveals, as the first set(blue) seems to be the measurement, and the "selectedCrossover"(red) the Imprint determined one.


----------



## argiex

quality_sound said:


> Guys, just a heads up, with the W505 you get FULL MANUAL CONTROL of the Imprint processor, including access to BOTH Alpine generated curves.


I don´t think you get any manual control, as I´m running the IDA-X100 with the same Imprint processor (PXA-H100), and there is no manual control other than choosing between 3 curves (Reference, Reference w. mid comp, and linear).


----------



## kaigoss69

thanks argiex. Perhaps the difference in x-over frequ. had something to do with mic placement or perhaps an installation issue in one of your doors?

Has anyone with a 3-way set-up opened their files to see what settings imprint used? This would be very interesting.

Now what would be even more interesting...can you somehow import and altered file into the 9887 headunit. This could be the only possible way of "customizing" imprint settings.

Keep up the good work guys, I appreciate all the information.


----------



## argiex

kaigoss69 said:


> thanks argiex. Perhaps the difference in x-over frequ. had something to do with mic placement or perhaps an installation issue in one of your doors?
> 
> Has anyone with a 3-way set-up opened their files to see what settings imprint used? This would be very interesting.
> 
> Now what would be even more interesting...can you somehow import and altered file into the 9887 headunit. This could be the only possible way of "customizing" imprint settings.
> 
> Keep up the good work guys, I appreciate all the information.


I deleted all the .acb files before running the Imprint software, as I thought I could change the crossover value and then send it to the processor.
But the software doesn´t write the file on disk until after it has send it to the processor.

MAYBE..... I can send it once, and then make the changes, and send it again.
I´ll give it a try tomorrow.


----------



## kaigoss69

What then is the purpose of imprint saving the files on the PC??? Is it perhaps a backup for when you somehow lose the info inside the HU? If yes, is there perhaps a restore feature that would copy the .acb files from the PC to the processor?


----------



## quality_sound

argiex said:


> I don´t think you get any manual control, as I´m running the IDA-X100 with the same Imprint processor (PXA-H100), and there is no manual control other than choosing between 3 curves (Reference, Reference w. mid comp, and linear).



Your X100 isn't a W505 is it?


----------



## argiex

quality_sound said:


> Your X100 isn't a W505 is it?


It´s not easy to find info. on this HU but this is what I found on the Crutchfield website:

_Tweak your system to perfection with Alpine's optional PXA-H100 IMPRINT™ audio processor, which automatically adjusts receiver output to fit your vehicle's acoustics._

And that is the same processor as for the IDA-X100, that´s why I concluded it was the same setup.

But maybe you can provide some more info. on this.

1. Does the IVA-W505 have build in Imprint capability, or what processor are you using ?
2. Are you controlling the Imprint software directly from the HU or from a PC ?

Please post some pictures on the setup procedure.


----------



## arigato

Quick question on passive x-overs in 4.2 mode

It is said in the manual that I should turn amp's x-overs off, unfortunately I missed that. I have 2-component DLS R6A with passives, that plays (in accordance to their specs) starting from 50 Hz, while my amp's x-over was set at 40 Hz. Did this affect the measurements, is it better to re-measure with amp's x-over turned off, or it doesn't really matter in that case?

Thanks


----------



## sonicnirvana

I would think since your crossover point is actually below the the dropoff point of your driver, that it wouldn't make any difference. Imprint attempts to find the optimal response, but in your case I doubt that would be by setting the XO below 40hz.


----------



## arigato

sonicnirvana said:


> I would think since your crossover point is actually below the the dropoff point of your driver, that it wouldn't make any difference. Imprint attempts to find the optimal response, but in your case I doubt that would be by setting the XO below 40hz.


Thank you!


----------



## nismos14

w505 and iva may run much differently with the Imprint.


----------



## Q-Authority

Great graphs and input from Sonicnirvana! But I can understand why people are concerned about running an all active speaker setup. If I recall correctly, there were some discussions of this on the home forums and it was determined that Audyssey/Imprint had an ability, to some extent, to accurately determine a speaker's capabilities in this regard, but I can't recall specifically what was said.

If you are really curious, try googling Audyssey or MultEQ. There have been a lot of discussions and technical reviews on it.

It's interesting to continue to hear about final Imprint result evaluations, in terms of sound quality. The similarities in home and car scenarios are not too dissimilar in this regard. However, the home users can usually work around this by simply changing speaker or listening positions and running Audyssey/Imprint over again and checking the new results. I can wholeheartedly tell you that minor speaker placement, or listening position/microphone placement, changes can make a huge difference in the final Audyssey/Imprint results. These results are also much greater than if you were to simply move the speakers, or listening position after having run Audyssey/Imprint.

I am sure Audyssey/Alpine have worked hard to optimize this system for the car environment, but there will always be much greater obstacles to overcome here, than for the home setup. However, it would be nice if they would offer a little insight as to how they have chosen to implement some of the settings in regards to this unique environment. Of course that might just lead to another can of worms being opened up, as everyone might have different opinions on the subject.

Regarding bass output: The only way they will probably ever make people, at least somewhat happy, would be to give them some options for changing settings after Imprint has been run, which I think you have in the PXE-H650 (at least to some extent). Many car audio folks (not everyone!), I think, just tend to prefer more bass than what would be thought of as tonally accurate. The uncontrollable downside to this is that no two car interior environments are alike. In the home environment I have gone from almost no bass to way too much bass, depending upon very small speaker placement changes and, unfortunately, not only the bass changes when you move things. The really crazy part of this is that you can have seemingly very different bass results from disc to disc afterwards. What I mean is, is that two discs with seemingly identical bass output (octave wise), before the use of Audyssey/Imprint, can sound dramatically different from each other after having run Audyssey/Imprint. Make some very small speaker changes and suddenly the results are reversed. Make some more changes and wah-la, they both sound bad, or they both sound great. Now I know that doesn't sound possible, but believe me it is. That is why I have learned to use a wide variety of test discs after running Audyssey to see what it has done to the bass on the various test tracks I play. And it appears that it is only the bass that is affected this way. There is something really odd at work in the harmonics, or something, of a recording and how Audyssey interacts with them. I'd be curious to hear if people in the car forum have noticed this yet.

Regarding the treble issue: This one sounds really similar to the home issue I have had at my current residence. I have a complete wall of bay windows behind my couch, with slat blinds. Not a great listening environment due to the huge amount of reflective material (windows or slats). Sound familiar. I thought that running Audyssey, and then listening the same way, with the slats partly slanted open (but all the way across the windows) would offer the best solution, as it might break-up the reflections off the glass. Strangely enough this is not the case. It actually sounds best when I close the slats completely (but are still pulled all the way across the windows). Pulling the slats open/out of the way completely is the worst. This produces a very annoying top end, which seems similar to what many here are experiencing. It’s all that damn glass. If at all possible they might try different tweeter angling, but I know not everyone can do this. Different mike positioning can also be of some help.

Sorry to run on, but I have waited eagerly for a few years now to see the first car audio Audyssey/Imprint device and I really would like to see it succeed and be developed more.


----------



## arigato

Surprisingly, I'm quite satisfied with bass after Imprint. The only problem is - it sounds very natural like home system... as long as the car is at parking place. But then you are driving let say at 100-130 km/h bass mostly disappearing, unless you've got completely isolated Jaguar or Cayenne or kind of 

So I imagine that Alpine could use internal HU mic (supposed to correct volume in noise conditions, meaning open windows or high speed) more accurately, let say - to correct bass levels as well! Why not?


----------



## Q-Authority

A quck note, somehat in regards to the last Arigato and Sonicnirvana posts. Despite what the speaker specs say, they may play entirely differently in the car than under test conditions at the factory. Remember the cabin transfer affect on bass. Your midbasses may appear to play much lower than what their specs say, because of the transfer effect. Imprint may well try crossing them over below their normal point because of this and that may not be a bad thing. Or it might. Even though it can now produce sounds at a lower point they may not be as accurate at doing this as the sub would be. Another reason why they should allow for user changeable settings.

For instance, I run two ported center channel speakers at home and Audyssey always sets them to a HPF of 40hz. The only problem is that becasue of port issues they sound much better crossed at 60hz (their design specs) and this is where I reset them.


----------



## Q-Authority

arigato said:


> Surprisingly, I'm quite satisfied with bass after Imprint. The only problem is - it sounds very natural like home system... as long as the car is at parking place. But then you are driving let say at 100-130 km/h bass mostly disappearing, unless you've got completely isolated Jaguar or Cayenne or kind of
> 
> So I imagine that Alpine could use internal HU mic (supposed to correct volume in noise conditions, meaning open windows or high speed) more accurately, let say - to correct bass levels as well! Why not?


Good point! I'd say that would probably be most people's listening impressions. It would be nice to either have an alternative Imprint curve to choose from, that might take this into account, give us a center frquency adjustable bass control to use with it, or as you mentioned, offer something akin to what the F1# 9990 had (road noise EQ self adjustment). But then you would really be driving up the costs.


----------



## arigato

Q-Authority said:


> A quck note, somehat in regards to the last Arigato and Sonicnirvana posts. Despite what the speaker specs say, they may play entirely differently in the car than under test conditions at the factory. Remember the cabin transfer affect on bass. Your midbasses may appear to play much lower than what their specs say, because of the transfer effect. ...


Right, especially keeping in mind that doors inside are very different in their volumes and installation pre-works. I'll anyway do measurements again with driver's seat focus, and now with amp's x-over off.


----------



## arigato

Q-Authority said:


> Good point! I'd say that would probably be most people's listening impressions. It would be nice to either have an alternative Imprint curve to choose from, that might take this into account, give us a center frquency adjustable bass control to use with it, or as you mentioned, offer something akin to what the F1# 9990 had (road noise EQ self adjustment). But then you would really be driving up the costs.


At least, adjustable bass dependance on environment noise is not that hard to do, by issuing a new firmware of HU, isn't it?


----------



## Q-Authority

arigato said:


> At least, adjustable bass dependance on environment noise is not that hard to do, by issuing a new firmware of HU, isn't it?


Well, it would be nice. Just a matter of coming up with something most people would accept tone wise. It could be based off of the accoustical map of the car that Imprint develops. But user adjustable xover, gain, and time alignment are musts as well in my book.


----------



## sonicnirvana

There are a few other things that bug me. For one, why can't I save different runs on my laptop and upload at will. I would really also like to be able to save two (or more) different runs to the memory1 and memory2 locations so I could try different things and see how that affects the results. This seems extremely easy for Alpine to accomodate. And what if I have to pull power from my unit or issue a reset? I have no way to reload that perfect Imprint session. Instead I have to run it all over again and hope for the best.

This is all side from the fact that we totally lose control of tweaking after the Imprint run. Lets face it, something like this is not likely to work perfectly in every car/installation. Why not let us have some freedom to make more adjustments afterwards? It may just be a marketing thing, but there is definately room for improvement here.

Sigh. Rant over....


----------



## kaigoss69

So one thing I just learned from reading Crutchfield reviews is that the software worked with Windows Vista for one of the reviewers. Can anyone here confirm this? This is a big buying decision for me, since I am running Vista on my lappy.

Second question: I have read here about the different listening positions imprint wants to measure and some people have suggested that this is so that imprint can optimize the sound for all passengers in the vehicle. But I also read that perhaps the different mic positions are necessary to measure the frequency characteristics of the vehicle, which will undoubtedly be different in other parts of the vehicle, besides the drivers seat.

So what is the conclusion, when you want imprint to produce the best possible sound for the driver only, should you just leave the mic in the driver position for all tests or do you move it around as the software asks. What are the actual results you guys have had and what works best?


----------



## Q-Authority

sonicnirvana said:


> There are a few other things that bug me. For one, why can't I save different runs on my laptop and upload at will. I would really also like to be able to save two (or more) different runs to the memory1 and memory2 locations so I could try different things and see how that affects the results. This seems extremely easy for Alpine to accomodate. And what if I have to pull power from my unit or issue a reset? I have no way to reload that perfect Imprint session. Instead I have to run it all over again and hope for the best.
> 
> This is all side from the fact that we totally lose control of tweaking after the Imprint run. Lets face it, something like this is not likely to work perfectly in every car/installation. Why not let us have some freedom to make more adjustments afterwards? It may just be a marketing thing, but there is definately room for improvement here.
> 
> Sigh. Rant over....


I completely agree with you. Seems like it would be relatively simple to allow saved programs and not have to run everything all over again and hope it comes out the same. That is a major peeve of mine in the home version. There are so many little things that can alter the effect of the program that being able to save a seemingly good run, for comparison purposes, would be fantastic.
A few things that can affect the Audyssey/Imprint results:
a) a very obvious difference can be heard in Audyssey results between just plugging in the microphone and running the program or letting the mike's connection settle down over a couple of hours or so; I make a point of not running Audyssey unless the mike has been plugged in and undisturbed for several hours; the results have always been better;
b) make sure you run this at as close to room temperature as possible; the temperature will definitely affect how your speakers function and alter the results; I've tried it at colder and warmer extremes and can easily hear the differences;
c) warm up the speakers a little before running the program; no warm up means stiff speakers; too much can alter it as well; although, if you haven't liked some of your previous results, try playing with this factor as the bass results can change considerably;
d) warm up the stereo circuits a bit as well (the same amount of time it takes to warm up the speakers), although I have gotten better results with them only barely warmed up and not to either extreme; but again, this can alter bass results so it is something you can play with;
Or if you want complete piece of mind, don't read any of my posts, as I have been obscenely anal when it comes to perfecting my home system using Audyssey.


----------



## Q-Authority

kaigoss69 said:


> So one thing I just learned from reading Crutchfield reviews is that the software worked with Windows Vista for one of the reviewers. Can anyone here confirm this? This is a big buying decision for me, since I am running Vista on my lappy.
> 
> Second question: I have read here about the different listening positions imprint wants to measure and some people have suggested that this is so that imprint can optimize the sound for all passengers in the vehicle. But I also read that perhaps the different mic positions are necessary to measure the frequency characteristics of the vehicle, which will undoubtedly be different in other parts of the vehicle, besides the drivers seat.
> 
> So what is the conclusion, when you want imprint to produce the best possible sound for the driver only, should you just leave the mic in the driver position for all tests or do you move it around as the software asks. What are the actual results you guys have had and what works best?


I can't give you a specific answer regarding the car/Imprint results, but I imagine it should be very similar if not identical to the home Audyssey ones. The home version also tells you to place the mike at various seating locations, but not in any specific order (other than starting with the main location first), or any specific seating locations. They also tell you that this is to help determine the signature of the listening space and therefore the more positions the better.
I ignored this a bit at first, but eventually found out that they were right up to a certain extent anyway. Placing the mike in various seating areas other than directly adjacent to the main location, however, gave me poor results. Keeping the mike relatively close to the main seating location was much better and I eventually determined the best compilation of these positions. I have a six foot couch and can use 7 positions all along the top back edge of the couch, starting with the main position (they recommend up to 8). The home version also warns you not to use two consecutive mike positions that are less than about 2 feet from each other, so I had to develop a pattern that would accommodate that prerequisite and thus managed 7 without repeating any (I had also found that repetitive mike spots hurt the results). I haven't heard of that requirement in the car version, but I would imagine it could only help.
The initial idea behind Audyssey/Imprint was to develop as large a sweet spot as possible for all listeners and it works to a certain extent. However, I could personally care less if the others don’t have the same perfect position that I do (ha, ha), so I set it up geared around the main position only and it makes a big difference. Myself, I would never place the mike anywhere but up front for the car version.


----------



## quality_sound

argiex said:


> It´s not easy to find info. on this HU but this is what I found on the Crutchfield website:
> 
> _Tweak your system to perfection with Alpine's optional PXA-H100 IMPRINT™ audio processor, which automatically adjusts receiver output to fit your vehicle's acoustics._
> 
> And that is the same processor as for the IDA-X100, that´s why I concluded it was the same setup.
> 
> But maybe you can provide some more info. on this.
> 
> 1. Does the IVA-W505 have build in Imprint capability, or what processor are you using ?
> 2. Are you controlling the Imprint software directly from the HU or from a PC ?
> 
> Please post some pictures on the setup procedure.


The W505 uses the same Imprint processor but it has more control over it than the X100. I don't have the processor, I'm running an H701, but I uploaded the W505 manual if you want to read it. Look in the "alpine catalog" thread and look for my posts for the link to the manual.


----------



## sonicnirvana

kaigoss69 said:


> Second question: I have read here about the different listening positions imprint wants to measure and some people have suggested that this is so that imprint can optimize the sound for all passengers in the vehicle. But I also read that perhaps the different mic positions are necessary to measure the frequency characteristics of the vehicle, which will undoubtedly be different in other parts of the vehicle, besides the drivers seat.


OK, so what it does is: first it asks you the position you want to optimize for; All passengers, driver only, passenger only, etc. Then after you select which position you want to optimize, It wants you to place the mic in up to 6 different positions. It will tell you where to place the mic for each of these, but you can stop with just one or two of these positions. 

So the first part is for imaging, the second part for tonal response.


----------



## sonicnirvana

Q-Authority said:


> A few things that can affect the Audyssey/Imprint results:
> a) a very obvious difference can be heard in Audyssey results between just plugging in the microphone and running the program or letting the mike's connection settle down over a couple of hours or so; I make a point of not running Audyssey unless the mike has been plugged in and undisturbed for several hours; the results have always been better;
> b) make sure you run this at as close to room temperature as possible; the temperature will definitely affect how your speakers function and alter the results; I've tried it at colder and warmer extremes and can easily hear the differences;
> c) warm up the speakers a little before running the program; no warm up means stiff speakers; too much can alter it as well; although, if you haven't liked some of your previous results, try playing with this factor as the bass results can change considerably;
> d) warm up the stereo circuits a bit as well (the same amount of time it takes to warm up the speakers), although I have gotten better results with them only barely warmed up and not to either extreme; but again, this can alter bass results so it is something you can play with;
> Or if you want complete piece of mind, don't read any of my posts, as I have been obscenely anal when it comes to perfecting my home system using Audyssey.


Man, I thought I was anal!  My last run left my vocals sounding a bit nasal and out of phase sounding. Compared to my manual tuning, the location of vocals is tough to nail down. They seem to float around. Strange thing is I only notice this with the vocals. Everything else sounds good, nice definition, stage position and good tonality.

Any suggestions? Also, getting distortion in the right channel at around 1-2K on certain passages....only with Imprint.


----------



## argiex

deleted.


----------



## argiex

quality_sound said:


> The W505 uses the same Imprint processor but it has more control over it than the X100. I don't have the processor, I'm running an H701, but I
> 
> uploaded the W505 manual if you want to read it. Look in the "alpine catalog" thread and look for my posts for the link to the manual.





I looked though the manual, and still don´t think you have anymore control over the processor than the X100 has.

This is what the manual says:

_When MultiEQ is set to CURVE1 or CURVE2, MEDIA XPANDER, X-OVER, T.CORR, SUBWOOFER PHASE, SUBWOOFER SYSTEM, SUBWOOFER CHANNEL, TW SETUP, P-EQ, G-EQ and F-EQ can not be adjusted._ 

You are still using the same software for the PC, to take measurements and program the processor, and you don´t have any way to customize the Imprint generated curves there.

And if all the EQ´s are turned off after you program the curves, I don´t see any way to manually tweak afterward.

The software used to measure and program, is also the same for the CDA-9887 and the processor PXA-H100, so all Alpine need to do, is make a new software version with more EQ. options.


----------



## arigato

Measure of the measure.

Here are what I've got before and after Imprint.

Two animated GIF files below, showing sound pressure and group delay. 3 slides: 1st - basic settings (MultEQ off), 2nd - Reference curve, 3rd - Reference with mid comp. Each frame holds for 3 sec. Both MultiEQ were with Bass 0, Treble 0, Sub +7 (this is how it sounds OK).

Application I used:
http://www.supermegaultragroovy.com/products/FuzzMeasure/
Mic: Audio Technica ATR-25 (powered, omni-directional)
http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/0288c41b918b13b4/index.html/

Blue - left channel, Red - right channel. I was sitting in the car, left side.

Sound pressure:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2317/2417908571_5bce9f1c6c_o.gif

Group dealy:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2399/2418725258_71271b1d37_o.gif

Strange, there's huge gain in high frequencies. Maybe because of ATR-25, not sure. This is consumer mic, not for measurement purposes. At least I can hear music normally without feeling I got no highs. Maybe that's also due to mic connection - Apple's MacBook Pro input is AUX, not Mic input, even with powered Mic this might be not enough. Anyhow, at least the difference between different type of EQ settings is visible.

UPD. THERE'S NO gain at highs - they are disappearing somewhere much higher - see the scale - the end of it is at 100 KHZ, not at 20 KHZ  However, I will re-measure it using Audissey mic with pre-amp.

And I still can't get the idea of "Ref. mid comp." EQ set. 

Any thoughts overall?

Thanks


----------



## kaigoss69

So I have one more question: I will be running a 3-way active front stage, hence I will have the system in 3-way mode. The rear channel will be hooked up to the tweeters, the front channel to the midranges and the sub channel to the mid-basses in the doors. The Dynaudio MD140/2 midrange driver only plays down to 500 Hz so I would want the mid-bass to play up to at least 500 Hz. Will imprint allow the "sub" channel to play such high frequencies or will it cut off around 120 Hz since it thinks it is a true subwoofer?


----------



## argiex

arigato:

Could you make an animated gif with the linear curve vs. the reference.

I think think the linear curve sound better than the reference.


----------



## arigato

argiex said:


> arigato:
> 
> Could you make an animated gif with the linear curve vs. the reference.
> 
> I think think the linear curve sound better than the reference.


Next time I run Imprint I'll keep Reference and Linear - will see what is it


----------



## arigato

More accurate image. This one has taken with Audyssey mic, both channels input as mono

Red - Reference curve, Green - MultEQ off.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2420/2429053538_265523e62a_o.gif

There must be mistakes here because the mic is calibrated (as promised somewhere) and supposed to be used in pair with the black box, I suppose.

I wonder what is a strange gain at 500 Hz. What does it mean, why's that?


----------



## ZoNtO

Just noticed this link today on Alpine's website, PDF of Car Audio and Electronics review of 9887/Imprint:

http://www.alpine-usa.com/images/products/reviews/cda-9887_imprint.pdf


----------



## scsiman

Monologuist said:


> SETUP:
> Saab 9-3 hatchback, Alpine CDA-9887 head unit, Polk SR-6500 components (drivers in the stock front door locations firing horizontally, tweeters in the stock 3.5" speaker location in the corners of the dashboard firing up at the windshield), Polk SR-124 DVC 12" sub in a custom box in the hatch area, back against the back of the rear seats, firing towards the rear, powered by Alpine PDX-4.100 and 1.600 amps. Gains set at 12'oclock on both amps, amp crossovers off.
> 
> Just finished doing measurements for my new KTX-100eq....I did all 6 positions and nearly drained my entire battery...definitely keep this in mind id you want to analyze all 6 positions (the manual says 2 positions should be sufficient). I uploaded the settings to my head unit using the first two "response curves", "Reference" and "Reference with mid-comp"....the third option is "Linear". Not sure what these curves delineate to be honest, as I'm a bit new to tuning...
> 
> I was particularly careful about where I placed the mic within each position...the height was uniform for the most part using a tripod, but I did not do precise measurements of where the axes were relative to the speakers...in other words, for the front left seat, I just put the mic up around headrest level and roughly in the middle of the seat (of course your head moves depending on whether you are leaning back or sitting up straight while driving)...not sure if this will greatly affect the usefulness of the measurements...
> 
> Also, you are supposed to do it in as quiet an area as possible....where I live, there is always some street traffic outside...again, not sure if this negatively affected my measurements...my car is decently sound-treated so hopefully not.
> 
> After finishing and trying out my usual lineup of reference songs, the results were rather surprising. Previously I had tuned the system only using the T.A., crossovers, and very slight amount of parametric EQ. Comparing pre-multieq to post, post seemed very forward in the mids and highs and quite bass shy...soundstage was definitely drastically improved, but I found the overall sound a bit painful at loud volumes. Perhaps I am just used to hearing th system out of balance and just need o get used to what a well-tuned car sounds like? Anyway the results were similar to what the other reviewer said...the definition of isolated sounds was improved dramatically, nuances in the low-mids and mid-bass benefited a lot, but at the loss of visceral impact...Again perhaps I am just used to listening to a bass-hyped system, but I was definitely not getting much body-shaking bass from the Polk SR-124 sub in the hatch of my Saab 9-3 with the multieq on. I have to say at softer to moderate listening levels, the sound is 100% better, but the added definition and clarity seemed to push some more sibilant frequencies forward making it a bit bright at higher volumes. (I should mention that I have my tweeters firing up against the front windshield, so that is somewhat unavoidable, but my pre-multieq tuning did not emphasize this much in comparison.
> 
> Now, from what I understand, the Multieq tuning from all 6 positions achieves a final profile of settings that is meant to be as optimal from each sitting position in the car. So I am wondering as was discussed earlier if it is possible to optimize from the driver's seat alone, which is obviously how I tuned things pre-multieq. Perhaps the qualities that I liked least about the sound post-multieq are a result of the compromises made to achieve settings that would benefit each listening position (that might explain the bass-shyness as I'm sure the levels that I have my sub at normally would severely compromise a listener in the rear seats which are touching the back of my subwoofer cabinet. I wonder if you did all the listening positions in the front driver seat as suggested earlier if it would eliminate these"compromises" or does the system make adjustments assuming that the mic is in the indicated positions, only?
> 
> BTW, I had my head unit's subwoofer level set at around 7/15 when doing the multieq tuning giving me room to boost the sub level...but doing so might create additional acoustic problems due to , say, overlapping bass frequencies between the sub and the component drivers in my front doors, right? In other words, the whole tuning relies on the levels of each speaker being at a particular point (as dictated by the setting on your amps), so raising or lowering the levels might render the T.A., EQ and crossover settings dialed in by the imprint system, useless. Likewise, simply boosting the bass adjustment that is available post-multieq might do similarly? If the process allowed just a few points of user customization DURING the tuning, as opposed to after, the whole system might be much more effective, since all the tuning parameters are presumably interdependent?
> 
> I think I will give it a day of listening, and if I am still not satisfied with the sound, I will experiment with new measurements that are taken only in the driver's seat to see what effect that has. Unfortunately the documentation is as mentioned, useless..
> 
> Oh yes, I think someone might have asked this already, but I am a little confused as well about whether the system automatically detects what type of speaker setup you have..I have only a pair of 2-way components in the front and the single 12" sub in the hatch...so is the software able to determine what type of speaker is attached to each channel of the head unit, or is it assuming a particular configuration? I think I had my tweeters on the "LR" and RR" channels and the drivers on the "LF" and "RF" channels...hopefully the system knows this or else it could set the crossovers the wrong way and fry your speakers. I am assuming for now that the system assumes whatever you have chosen already on the 9887 (3-way or F/R/Sub). If anyone could tell me if they know what the correct configuration is supposed to be in terms of channel-to-speaker for 3-way (1 set of 2-way comps +sub), would be much appreciated..was always confused about this, as intuitively I would think LF and RF should be the tweeters and LR RR would be the drivers.


Hi Monologuist,

I was in a rush using the KTX-100EQ on my daughter’s car. Honda CRV, HU- CDA-9887,Fronts- JL Audio ZR650-CSi 6.5 Components, Rears – MB Quart DKC 116, Sub- HO112RG-W3v3 (One 12W3v3-4), AMPS - JL Audio 450/4v2 Class A/B Four-Channel System Amplifier and JL Audio 500/1 Class D Monoblock Subwoofer Amplifier
I have the Alpine h650 in my car. Both amp crossovers off. However, during measurements I heard sound frequencies from all speakers except the subwoofer (SWL SWR) any suggestions?


----------



## scsiman

Monologuist said:


> SETUP:
> Saab 9-3 hatchback, Alpine CDA-9887 head unit, Polk SR-6500 components (drivers in the stock front door locations firing horizontally, tweeters in the stock 3.5" speaker location in the corners of the dashboard firing up at the windshield), Polk SR-124 DVC 12" sub in a custom box in the hatch area, back against the back of the rear seats, firing towards the rear, powered by Alpine PDX-4.100 and 1.600 amps. Gains set at 12'oclock on both amps, amp crossovers off.
> 
> Just finished doing measurements for my new KTX-100eq....I did all 6 positions and nearly drained my entire battery...definitely keep this in mind id you want to analyze all 6 positions (the manual says 2 positions should be sufficient). I uploaded the settings to my head unit using the first two "response curves", "Reference" and "Reference with mid-comp"....the third option is "Linear". Not sure what these curves delineate to be honest, as I'm a bit new to tuning...
> 
> I was particularly careful about where I placed the mic within each position...the height was uniform for the most part using a tripod, but I did not do precise measurements of where the axes were relative to the speakers...in other words, for the front left seat, I just put the mic up around headrest level and roughly in the middle of the seat (of course your head moves depending on whether you are leaning back or sitting up straight while driving)...not sure if this will greatly affect the usefulness of the measurements...
> 
> Also, you are supposed to do it in as quiet an area as possible....where I live, there is always some street traffic outside...again, not sure if this negatively affected my measurements...my car is decently sound-treated so hopefully not.
> 
> After finishing and trying out my usual lineup of reference songs, the results were rather surprising. Previously I had tuned the system only using the T.A., crossovers, and very slight amount of parametric EQ. Comparing pre-multieq to post, post seemed very forward in the mids and highs and quite bass shy...soundstage was definitely drastically improved, but I found the overall sound a bit painful at loud volumes. Perhaps I am just used to hearing th system out of balance and just need o get used to what a well-tuned car sounds like? Anyway the results were similar to what the other reviewer said...the definition of isolated sounds was improved dramatically, nuances in the low-mids and mid-bass benefited a lot, but at the loss of visceral impact...Again perhaps I am just used to listening to a bass-hyped system, but I was definitely not getting much body-shaking bass from the Polk SR-124 sub in the hatch of my Saab 9-3 with the multieq on. I have to say at softer to moderate listening levels, the sound is 100% better, but the added definition and clarity seemed to push some more sibilant frequencies forward making it a bit bright at higher volumes. (I should mention that I have my tweeters firing up against the front windshield, so that is somewhat unavoidable, but my pre-multieq tuning did not emphasize this much in comparison.
> 
> Now, from what I understand, the Multieq tuning from all 6 positions achieves a final profile of settings that is meant to be as optimal from each sitting position in the car. So I am wondering as was discussed earlier if it is possible to optimize from the driver's seat alone, which is obviously how I tuned things pre-multieq. Perhaps the qualities that I liked least about the sound post-multieq are a result of the compromises made to achieve settings that would benefit each listening position (that might explain the bass-shyness as I'm sure the levels that I have my sub at normally would severely compromise a listener in the rear seats which are touching the back of my subwoofer cabinet. I wonder if you did all the listening positions in the front driver seat as suggested earlier if it would eliminate these"compromises" or does the system make adjustments assuming that the mic is in the indicated positions, only?
> 
> BTW, I had my head unit's subwoofer level set at around 7/15 when doing the multieq tuning giving me room to boost the sub level...but doing so might create additional acoustic problems due to , say, overlapping bass frequencies between the sub and the component drivers in my front doors, right? In other words, the whole tuning relies on the levels of each speaker being at a particular point (as dictated by the setting on your amps), so raising or lowering the levels might render the T.A., EQ and crossover settings dialed in by the imprint system, useless. Likewise, simply boosting the bass adjustment that is available post-multieq might do similarly? If the process allowed just a few points of user customization DURING the tuning, as opposed to after, the whole system might be much more effective, since all the tuning parameters are presumably interdependent?
> 
> I think I will give it a day of listening, and if I am still not satisfied with the sound, I will experiment with new measurements that are taken only in the driver's seat to see what effect that has. Unfortunately the documentation is as mentioned, useless..
> 
> Oh yes, I think someone might have asked this already, but I am a little confused as well about whether the system automatically detects what type of speaker setup you have..I have only a pair of 2-way components in the front and the single 12" sub in the hatch...so is the software able to determine what type of speaker is attached to each channel of the head unit, or is it assuming a particular configuration? I think I had my tweeters on the "LR" and RR" channels and the drivers on the "LF" and "RF" channels...hopefully the system knows this or else it could set the crossovers the wrong way and fry your speakers. I am assuming for now that the system assumes whatever you have chosen already on the 9887 (3-way or F/R/Sub). If anyone could tell me if they know what the correct configuration is supposed to be in terms of channel-to-speaker for 3-way (1 set of 2-way comps +sub), would be much appreciated..was always confused about this, as intuitively I would think LF and RF should be the tweeters and LR RR would be the drivers.


I was in a rush using the KTX-100EQ on my daughter’s car. Honda CRV, HU- CDA-9887, Fronts- JL Audio ZR650-CSi 6.5, Rears – MB Quart DKC 116, Sub- HO112RG-W3v3 (One 12W3v3-4), AMPS - JL Audio 450/4v2 and JL Audio 500/1 
I have the Alpine h650 in my car. Both amp crossovers off. However, during measurements I heard sound frequencies from all speakers except the subwoofer (SWL SWR) any suggestions?


----------



## kaigoss69

So what happened to this thread? - I got my 9887 and imprint kit coming, and I'll share my results as soon as I have them. I have a 3-way front stage, and am running without subs right now (hoping to go "subless"). I have (2) Eclipse 4-channel XA4000 amps which will be hooked up as follows:

Front doors:
Dynaudio MD100 (2 channels on amp 1 fed from "tweeter" RCA)
Focal 4K Slim 4" mids (2 channels on amp 1 fed from "mid" RCA)
Peerless SLS 6.5" woofers (2 channels on amp 2 fed from "sub" RCA)

Rear doors:
Dynaudio MW160 6.5" woofers (2 channels on amp 2 fed from "sub" RCA)

So I'll be splitting the low frequency signal to 4 channels. I will still have stereo, and I can control the front and rear drivers separately with the amp's gains, but I won't have time correction between the front and rear woofers. I guess I will be able to live with it, we'll see. 

I am expecting imprint to correctly set my x-over points based on my drivers' capabilities. I understand that the sub x-over won't go higher than 200 Hz, but that's ok since the Focal 4" drivers play down to 140 hz, if necessary.

I am hoping for a small miracle here!


----------



## bernardo

guys i got my imprint module today, and i have been reading this thread since i order it.

but now i got it, and i have run it...

in one word, i like it a lot...

here some things:

for the guy who has a port error:
plug in the laptop to the imprint module and HU before run the software, and restart windows after installing the USB driver, then install the software.

for those who have no bass..
i read all the instructions, and you should check the warnings
put the sub level on 0 before run the software.
down a little the gains on your subwoofer amp
turn off the crossover on the amp..
after the reading, put the sub level on 15, up a little the amp gains, and put all the bass up with all the treble down.
( worked for my car )

now my questions:

when i finish the testing, it shows me 3 curves, which one should i choose?
reference, reference with... , or linear.. ( i dont remeber the names )

and then asks me to record the results, on memory 1 or 2, how can i reach those from the HU, i want to record 2 of those, and use sometimes one and sometimes the other.

PD: my software is Ver 1.1, do you think alpine will make an update


----------



## sonicnirvana

bernardo said:


> when i finish the testing, it shows me 3 curves, which one should i choose?
> reference, reference with... , or linear.. ( i dont remeber the names )


Try the reference curve and the linear curve, but it really depends on what you like.



bernardo said:


> and then asks me to record the results, on memory 1 or 2, how can i reach those from the HU, i want to record 2 of those, and use sometimes one and sometimes the other.


When you turn MultEq on on the fornt panel of your HU, you turn on Imprint. By default after you run the software it enables it. If you press and hold the little button it will swap between the 2 memories. So in the above case it would be reference and linear.



bernardo said:


> PD: my software is Ver 1.1, do you think alpine will make an update


No I don't. They will make improvements but you will have to by a new HU


----------



## MadMaxSE-L

I just did some adjustments on my 9887 (in the system in my sig below) and I have rectified my lack-of-bass issue . I am not using Imprint either, by the way...

Before, I had my headunit set to max out by 25/35 - this was my problem. I had to have my sub level at +15 just to hear my sub...

I set the headunit to run at 32 most of the time, and now I have enough bass at +8/+10 without my amps clipping and shutting off on me.

Just thought I'd post this for those out there that are having low-sub output on their 9887's.

-Matt


----------



## kaigoss69

bernardo said:


> PD: my software is Ver 1.1, do you think alpine will make an update


I just opened up my CD and the Version is 1.11. These must be brand new, since Crutchfield was backordered for quite some time and just got more in this week, direct from Alpine I would think.

Edit: on the CD cover, its says "Issue. C"


----------



## bernardo

MadMaxSE-L said:


> I just did some adjustments on my 9887 (in the system in my sig below) and I have rectified my lack-of-bass issue . I am not using Imprint either, by the way...
> 
> Before, I had my headunit set to max out by 25/35 - this was my problem. I had to have my sub level at +15 just to hear my sub...
> 
> I set the headunit to run at 32 most of the time, and now I have enough bass at +8/+10 without my amps clipping and shutting off on me.
> 
> Just thought I'd post this for those out there that are having low-sub output on their 9887's.
> 
> -Matt


on the setup, put the subsystem on 2


----------



## bernardo

kaigoss69 said:


> I just opened up my CD and the Version is 1.11. These must be brand new, since Crutchfield was backordered for quite some time and just got more in this week, direct from Alpine I would think.
> 
> Edit: on the CD cover, its says "Issue. C"


can you upload the software? so everyone here can download it?


----------



## ninogui

Hi there from the sunny portugal,

My brand new 9887r is still to be imprinted. Will post my findings. Meanwhile I´ve been playing with all options, and this is a diabolic little box.


some questions for u guys:

- in the end, which 6 mic positions you found best for driver seat optimization.?

- It´s a shame the system cant store 3 multeq waves. Only 2.. i would have to know which would be the difference between them to be able to have a choice option prior to do the imprint. I can´t go to the installer all the time with this, so i am looking for a semi-definite setup for the multeq, any comments.?

- If anyway it stores 2 waves, would i be able to do one pass and store one wave for the seat driver optimization, then on pass 2 optimize for all passengers and store one other (prob not the same) wave on wave number 2.? maybe not the overlaping wave, for instance optimize driver on wave reference and optimize all passengers on wave linear.?




greets all


----------



## ninogui

Q-Authority said:


> rsvchad: I think I see what you are getting at, but I believe you have misconstrued what Audyssey is actually doing;
> 
> What my quoted reference was referring to is that in regards to time alignment Audyssey/Imprint will see a passive 2-way (etc.) as a single speaker in regards to time alignment and for that matter in regards to eq filtering as well. The 512 bands of filtering are used, per speaker, over the entire speaker bandwidth, regardless of the xover point that is selected. That is why one can reset xover points on the home version without consequence, if they are set incorrectly during setup.
> 
> Regarding the Audyssey quote: What they stated unfortunately merged a few areas into one and made it a bit confusing. Audyssey generally works with three main issues, time alignment (speaker delay), time domain (room reflections), and frequency response.
> 
> Time alignment: the easy one; the delay in response from all speakers is measured during their sweep(?) tone measurements and delays are assigned to properly place all speakers in relationship to the main seating position;
> 
> Time domain: Audyssey doesn't go over this in a lot of detail, and many people probably confuse it with time alignment, but generally it works with frequency response issues, being that Audyssey attempts to measure only the first frequency response from a particular speaker and not the successive reflections from around the room; they claim this reduces, or rids the room of such effects with Audyssey applied, but reviewers have found this not to be the case, although they do say it helps a little (it's simply pretty much impossible to do physically);
> 
> Frequency response: this is where the 512 filters/bands come into play; and yes the home version, depending upon the receiver, can work on up to 8 channels, but that is in a 7.1 mode such as DD and DTS 7.1, or the newer HD formats;
> 
> Overview: Audyssey cannot see through a passive xover and separate out speakers within that circuit (for any purpose), which seems to be what you implied; otherwise my home system would be screwed, as I have 4-way front/main speakers and Audyssey would soon run out of calculating power before it got to all my other speakers (a 7.1 setup), all of which are at least 2-way, except for the sub; Audyssey/Imprint sends a single sweep tone(?), during setup to each speaker box/circuit and treats it as a single speaker; there is no possible way for it to recognize it as anything else;




Hi there,

hail to u guys, its great to read this insight so detailed.

I will still run the imprint rotine, waiting for schedule availability at the installer.

and will let u know about how it will sound, acocunting that all my speakers are coaxials, so no separate crossovers. i Guess it will not be able to recognize the inbuilt crossovers on the 2way hertz and on the back 3way cross sr-69?

greets


----------



## ninogui

Q-Authority said:


> rsvchad: I think I see what you are getting at, but I believe you have misconstrued what Audyssey is actually doing;
> 
> What my quoted reference was referring to is that in regards to time alignment Audyssey/Imprint will see a passive 2-way (etc.) as a single speaker in regards to time alignment and for that matter in regards to eq filtering as well. The 512 bands of filtering are used, per speaker, over the entire speaker bandwidth, regardless of the xover point that is selected. That is why one can reset xover points on the home version without consequence, if they are set incorrectly during setup.
> 
> Regarding the Audyssey quote: What they stated unfortunately merged a few areas into one and made it a bit confusing. Audyssey generally works with three main issues, time alignment (speaker delay), time domain (room reflections), and frequency response.
> 
> Time alignment: the easy one; the delay in response from all speakers is measured during their sweep(?) tone measurements and delays are assigned to properly place all speakers in relationship to the main seating position;
> 
> Time domain: Audyssey doesn't go over this in a lot of detail, and many people probably confuse it with time alignment, but generally it works with frequency response issues, being that Audyssey attempts to measure only the first frequency response from a particular speaker and not the successive reflections from around the room; they claim this reduces, or rids the room of such effects with Audyssey applied, but reviewers have found this not to be the case, although they do say it helps a little (it's simply pretty much impossible to do physically);
> 
> Frequency response: this is where the 512 filters/bands come into play; and yes the home version, depending upon the receiver, can work on up to 8 channels, but that is in a 7.1 mode such as DD and DTS 7.1, or the newer HD formats;
> 
> Overview: Audyssey cannot see through a passive xover and separate out speakers within that circuit (for any purpose), which seems to be what you implied; otherwise my home system would be screwed, as I have 4-way front/main speakers and Audyssey would soon run out of calculating power before it got to all my other speakers (a 7.1 setup), all of which are at least 2-way, except for the sub; Audyssey/Imprint sends a single sweep tone(?), during setup to each speaker box/circuit and treats it as a single speaker; there is no possible way for it to recognize it as anything else;



Hi there,

hail to u guys, its great to read this insight so detailed.

I will still run the imprint rotine, waiting for schedule availability at the installer.

and will let u know about how it will sound, acocunting that all my speakers are coaxials, so no separate crossovers. i Guess it will not be able to recognize the inbuilt crossovers on the 2way hertz and on the back 3way cross sr-69?

greets


----------



## Ztein

Hi I also have this problem. No solution to this ??

Have Imprint 1.11, not shure what release..

Stein Riise
Norway




arigato said:


> Going to be mad with this toy.
> 
> OK, I learned that I have to have 4.2-way with passive x-overs and 2-ways front. I even bought and installed rear speakers, thinking that they were the reason of Imprint measurement hold at the end of the process. None. Same story. My patience breaks after 30 minutes of waiting... Application keep kind of "measuring" at 99% - forever, doesn't even react on kit's processor detach!!!
> 
> Please help! No support here in Russia, nobody knows actually what to do with it...
> 
> All I'm asking is - what is your version of Imprint and if it's different from 1.1.1 could you please share the CD contents... And what was your timing of measure procedure?
> 
> Please...


----------



## arigato

Ztein said:


> Hi I also have this problem. No solution to this ??
> 
> Have Imprint 1.11, not shure what release..
> 
> Stein Riise
> Norway


Hope you got my answer before
Anyway - make sure you turn Windows regional settings as US, and US English language as primary language. This worked in my case.


----------



## arigato

bernardo said:


> can you upload the software? so everyone here can download it?


Are you guys still need 1.11 rev. C? I can upload it tonight. Let me know.


----------



## bernardo

well the CD says 1.1, but i check the software installed on my computer, and it says 1.11

so for me is ok, and thanks a lot for ask.

if anyone knows anything about a new version, please let us know.

PD:

someone told me in other forum, that removing the headrest during the calibration, should improve the sound, is it true?

also i feel more power on the speakers from the right, than the left ones, so what can i do?, i was wondering running the imprint calibration with the open window (driver) but i dont know if its a good idea. (I just calibrate the drivers seat)


----------



## ZoNtO

bernardo said:


> well the CD says 1.1, but i check the software installed on my computer, and it says 1.11
> 
> so for me is ok, and thanks a lot for ask.
> 
> if anyone knows anything about a new version, please let us know.
> 
> PD:
> 
> someone told me in other forum, that removing the headrest during the calibration, should improve the sound, is it true?
> 
> also i feel more power on the speakers from the right, than the left ones, so what can i do?, i was wondering running the imprint calibration with the open window (driver) but i dont know if its a good idea. (I just calibrate the drivers seat)


I would say that you'd want to keep the environment as similar to your driving circumstances as you can. the headrest is going to be there so I would leave it up. There's a few posts on this forum about calibrating: making sure your speakers are warmed up a bit before measuring, plugging the microphone in and letting it sit for a while, making sure the ambient noise is non-existant so you don't bork up measurements, turning sub gain down on the deck before you measure, etc....

I'm pretty happy with my results that I achieved doing it in a somewhat loud shop environment. I even got an error on one measurement that it was too loud outside and we had to redo it!


----------



## kaigoss69

106diablogti said:


> I have managed to open the acb files in the Customer Results folder. There are 2 xml files. One is the results and the other is the calibration settings.


I cannot find any such files nor a "customer results" folder. Where should I look? It is not in the Alpine directory where the other program files are located.


----------



## kaigoss69

OK, so I just ran imprint on my 3-way active frontstage. Let me just say this, I've only been aroused twice in my car, once when I first hooked up my Infinity 12" Perfects, and now after I ran imprint! Everything sounds outstanding. Sure, I will have to do some tweaking, but I see some major potential with this set-up.

I have played around with a few different measurement set-ups and I must say I like it the best when I leave the mic on the drivers seat headrest and move it just a couple of inches left and right for the second and third measurements. The stage was just beyond the windshield, about head high. Perfect, in my mind but I am no expert.

I re-ran with the suggested mic locations (moving the mic from front seat headrest to rear seat, then passenger seat, then back to a couple of different positions on the drivers seat. The results were that the stage was pulled back quite a bit, about 2 feet in front of my head. I preferred the other set-up, but again that's just my personal preference.

I do want to know why it takes so long between sweeps, what is the system doing for 90% of the time, anything? I nearly drained my battery 3 times today and I burned a 1/4 tank of gas to recharge the battery inbetween measuring sessions.

Also, imprint seems to take care of phase issues automatically, since one or both of my tweeters were out of phase before, and seem to be in-phase now.

The bass response is a bit less after imprint, and I wish I could get the kick-bass to come out a bit more, but of course that is not possible.

Not sure what the x-over frequencies are, but I would guess the mid-woofers are crossed quite low, well below the 200 Hz the head unit is capable of. I'll have to see if I can crack the CAB files if I ever find them, to find out where my x-over settings are. 

All in all I'm very pleased. My set-up is as follows:

Dynaudio MD100 tweets
Focal 4K (4" Polykevlar) mids
Peerless 7" SLS mid-woofers
Eclipse XA4000 amp for mids and tweets
Soundstream Rub 1000-2 amp on the Peerless (way too much power, I know)


----------



## Twonks

kaigoss69 said:


> Not sure what the x-over frequencies are, but I would guess the mid-woofers are crossed quite low, well below the 200 Hz the head unit is capable of. I'll have to see if I can crack the CAB files if I ever find them, to find out where my x-over settings are.


The files located c:\program files\alpine imprint\customer results

In their you will see some .ACB files. Open these with winrar and then you will see some .XML files at the top of the directory. These are the files to open and read.

My sweeps produced a cut off frequency of 35Hz for my front mid bass and 30Hz and below for the sub.

Sounded quite good at low volumes (once I'd tweaked the sub back up), but at high volume it fell apart and the mid bass could not handle the power at such a low x/over point.

I was tempted to set the cut off at around 60Hz on the mids amp so they could not go any lower, and then run the Imprint. This may also bring the sub in a little more to compensate. However I ended up selling the 9887 and 100EQ for a Pioneer P90 combo


----------



## kaigoss69

Twonks said:


> The files located c:\program files\alpine imprint\customer results
> 
> In their you will see some .ACB files. Open these with winrar and then you will see some .XML files at the top of the directory. These are the files to open and read.
> 
> My sweeps produced a cut off frequency of 35Hz for my front mid bass and 30Hz and below for the sub.
> 
> Sounded quite good at low volumes (once I'd tweaked the sub back up), but at high volume it fell apart and the mid bass could not handle the power at such a low x/over point.
> 
> I was tempted to set the cut off at around 60Hz on the mids amp so they could not go any lower, and then run the Imprint. This may also bring the sub in a little more to compensate. However I ended up selling the 9887 and 100EQ for a Pioneer P90 combo


Well yes that's where I would have expected the files to be but imprint did not create such a directory at all.


----------



## kaigoss69

Might I also add that the splash screen does NOT show the version of the SW. I will try to get a screen shot when I can. So I think mine is a newer version (the CD says 1.11, Issue. C) and perhaps they have changed it so that the measurement files are no longer saved on the PC. That would be a bummer .

I am running another imprint right now, playing around with different gain settings. I think I am getting best results with the gains on my mid and low channels at almost 9 o'clock (about as low as it goes) and almost full throttle on the sub amp. Due to different input sensitivities and impedances, I'm sure. If I turn the gains on the mids and highs any higher, the volume maxes out (unbearably loud) at about 18-20 Volume, and there are virtually no lows.

Keeping the mic on the drivers seat headrest for all 6 measurements, we'll see how it turns out.

I'll post frequency response graphs when I get a chance. Not surprisingly, with 6.5" subs in the doors, the low end drops off quite severely.


----------



## arigato

kaigoss69 said:


> I do want to know why it takes so long between sweeps, what is the system doing for 90% of the time, anything? I nearly drained my battery 3 times today and I burned a 1/4 tank of gas to recharge the battery inbetween measuring sessions.


Take faster computer. Mine (Apple MacBook Pro, Win XP under Bootcamp) did the whole 6-positions stage in about 15-20 minutes
Once I tried regular PC, Intel Core Duo 1.6 or so - that one was so slow between sweep tones so it taken 40-50 minutes!
If you use older laptop it might be much longer. I saw processors load is almost full while it calculating between tones so it needs a lot of power.


----------



## kaigoss69

Results from yesterday's session. I was only able to run 4 measurements, as the battery was at 11 V and I had to stop. Yes, my lappy seems rather slow, it takes forever between measurements.

Reference curve:









Linear curve:









So far, I like the sound of the linear curve better, since it rolls off the high end slightly and is not as harsh as the reference curve.

However, something seems off and I will have to remeasure, this time with 6 measurements. It would really be good if everyone could share their results, especially which mic placements worked the best. To keep it simple, let's just discuss the measurements for the drivers seat.

The bass is my real problem, as imprint seems to have taken the "punch" or "kick" out of the drums. It's weird, I can feel the air pressure coming from the woofer, so the cone is moving, but the sound is just not there. None of that chest-pounding, buttcheek-flapping bass I'm used to, it's almost like imprint is intentionally removing the transient bass from the music . I will have to see what can be done to get it back, perhaps trying to re-integrate my subs and see if that makes all the difference. But I really hoped to be able to run without subs for a while...


----------



## sonicnirvana

Realize the "Real" "After" curve probably looks more like the "Before" curve. The output displayed by Imprint is marketing hype. If you ran an MSL before and after on it your would see this...


----------



## kaigoss69

Well, I think the people who make car batteries are going to love me. I pretty much killed the battery in my car, and now I am tapping into the battery of my wife's car with jumper cables. Pretty soon I'll have to buy two new ones. The last measurement I took just now was with 3 mic positions on the driver's headrest. The results, sonically, are very good, but I am not satisfied with the gain settings so I'll have to do it over again. I find that if I set the gains too low, then the music won't play loud enough and the volume maxes out at around 23 or 24. If I set the gains too high, the volume is unbearably loud at 20 volume and I am hearing alternator whine quite severely. So it is a delicate balance between the gains to get it just right. The bass is still quite disappointing, but it has improved since I have hooked up the mid woofers in the rear doors. It is like an addiction to go out there and try to do better than last time but I'm not sure if I'll ever be satisfied...the imprint unit is a keeper for sure. I've played around with the manual settings a bit as well, and I'm not sure I could do half as good as what imprint has done, but the bass is definitely louder and tighter with multeq turned off.


----------



## bernardo

guys i think the bass is so low becouse the imprint module put the LPF on the subwoofer too low, i think mine its at 40 or 35 hz

so when i have music with deep bass i do feel the subwoofer, but with most of the music i dont feel it, maybe thats the reason, im just guessing

do anyone here have Polk Audio SR 6500 components? if you have them do you have a nice bass on the front?, or anyone with good bass components?


----------



## crisis

106diablogti said:


> Out of the calibResults.xml file I got the following :-
> 
> <Channel>1
> <TrimLevel>5.30921173
> <MEQTrimLevel>5.30921173
> <SpeakerType>SPEAKER_SMALL
> <Delay>3.5625
> <Polarity>1
> <Crossover>40
> <CutoffFreq>20
> <CutoffOrder>2
> <scores href="#ref-3" />
> <bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-4" />
> <bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-5" />
> <positionDelay href="#ref-6" />
> <Level href="#ref-7" />
> <TrimShift href="#ref-8" />
> <mayBeLarge>false
> <selectedCrossover>40
> <filterSampleRate>48000
> <filterOffset>-9
> 
> <Channel>2
> <TrimLevel>6.868965
> <MEQTrimLevel>6.868965
> <SpeakerType>SPEAKER_SMALL
> <Delay>3.5
> <Polarity>1
> <Crossover>40
> <CutoffFreq>20
> <CutoffOrder>2
> <scores href="#ref-9" />
> <bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-10" />
> <bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-11" />
> <positionDelay href="#ref-12" />
> <Level href="#ref-13" />
> <TrimShift href="#ref-14" />
> <mayBeLarge>false
> <selectedCrossover>40
> <filterSampleRate>48000
> <filterOffset>-9
> 
> 
> <Channel>5
> <TrimLevel>-6.80771637
> <MEQTrimLevel>-6.80771637
> <SpeakerType>SUBWOOFER
> <Delay>6.04166651
> <Polarity>1
> <Crossover>0
> <CutoffFreq>50
> <CutoffOrder>2
> <scores href="#ref-27" />
> <bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-28" />
> <bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-29" />
> <positionDelay href="#ref-30" />
> <Level href="#ref-31" />
> <TrimShift href="#ref-32" />
> <mayBeLarge>false
> <selectedCrossover>0
> <filterSampleRate>48000
> <filterOffset>-9
> 
> <Channel>6
> <TrimLevel>-6.868965
> <MEQTrimLevel>-6.868965
> <SpeakerType>SUBWOOFER
> <Delay>6.02083349
> <Polarity>1
> <Crossover>0
> <CutoffFreq>50
> <CutoffOrder>2
> <scores href="#ref-33" />
> <bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-34" />
> <bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-35" />
> <positionDelay href="#ref-36" />
> <Level href="#ref-37" />
> <TrimShift href="#ref-38" />
> <mayBeLarge>false
> <selectedCrossover>0
> <filterSampleRate>48000
> <filterOffset>-9


Hi 106diablogti, I just ran my Imprint software & am not happy with the results at all, my manual tunning efforts yielded better results. I was wondering if you had tried changing any of the values withing the XML results & tried resending the curves to the HU?


----------



## kaigoss69

Can anyone confirm whether or not imprint corrects incorrect speaker polarity? I'm pretty sure that the polarity on at least one of my tweets is reversed, but my ears are not "schooled" enough to pick it up. The results after imprint sure sound very good, but I guess I need some peace of mind knowing that the software would have picked up on the reverse polarity and corrected it. I am running 3-way active so there is no passive x-over involved. From the measurement result print outs some of you have posted, I can see "polarity: 1" or something like that which leads me to believe the SW detects polarity and it would be "-1" if it were reversed.

Thanks!


----------



## dejo

on my h650 it stopped and told me that the sub was out of phase and if I wanted to stop and fix it and then retest. I think it will itself for the fronts


----------



## kaigoss69

dejo said:


> on my h650 it stopped and told me that the sub was out of phase and if I wanted to stop and fix it and then retest. I think it will itself for the fronts


Well, last night I reversed polarity on one of the midranges and then a midbass, but the program didn't stop in either case and just went on with the measurements. So either it detects the incorrect phase an auto-corrects it, or it doesn't do anything at all. It would be good to know, for a fact, that it actually corrects the phase.

For those who have access to the measurement files (I have the latest SW and I can't find the "customer results" folder anywhere), would you consider running one session with a driver reversed, and then take a look at the file? If the program really corrects the polarity, it should say something like "polarity: -1" and then we would all know.


----------



## dmazyn

I found the customer results folder and the .abc files. I noticed after you send the settings to the Unit, my case I am running a 9886 using the H100 processor) and leave the app running you can get to the files. I used winace to extract the files and edited the XML settings file but can not get it compressed back to the original file format. 

My thinking is if I can edit the xml file and recompress the file then maybe if you send the settings again it will use the updated saved file on the HD. 

Now if I can find a program to compress the files back into the .abc file format.


----------



## placenta

See if the free trial will let you

http://leadtools.com/SDK/Document/Document-Addon-LEAD-ABC.htm


----------



## kaigoss69

So I finally found my customer results folder, it was in a totally different place, I guess because I'm using Vista!?

Here are the results:

<Channel>1</Channel>
<TrimLevel>10.305687</TrimLevel>
<MEQTrimLevel>10.305687</MEQTrimLevel>
<SpeakerType>SPEAKER_SMALL</SpeakerType>
<Delay>4.33333349</Delay>
<Polarity>1</Polarity>
<Crossover>170</Crossover>
<CutoffFreq>200</CutoffFreq>
<CutoffOrder>2</CutoffOrder>
<scores href="#ref-3"/>
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-4"/>
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-5"/>
<positionDelay href="#ref-6"/>
<Level href="#ref-7"/>
<TrimShift href="#ref-8"/>
<mayBeLarge>false</mayBeLarge>
<selectedCrossover>170</selectedCrossover>
<filterSampleRate>48000</filterSampleRate>
<filterOffset>-9</filterOffset>
</item>
<item>
<Channel>2</Channel>
<TrimLevel>12</TrimLevel>
<MEQTrimLevel>12</MEQTrimLevel>
<SpeakerType>SPEAKER_SMALL</SpeakerType>
<Delay>4.1875</Delay>
<Polarity>1</Polarity>
<Crossover>180</Crossover>
<CutoffFreq>150</CutoffFreq>
<CutoffOrder>3</CutoffOrder>
<scores href="#ref-9"/>
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-10"/>
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-11"/>
<positionDelay href="#ref-12"/>
<Level href="#ref-13"/>
<TrimShift href="#ref-14"/>
<mayBeLarge>false</mayBeLarge>
<selectedCrossover>180</selectedCrossover>
<filterSampleRate>48000</filterSampleRate>
<filterOffset>-9</filterOffset>
</item>
<item>
<Channel>3</Channel>
<TrimLevel>INF</TrimLevel>
<MEQTrimLevel>INF</MEQTrimLevel>
<SpeakerType>SPEAKER_UNDETECTED</SpeakerType>
<Delay>0.104166664</Delay>
<Polarity>1</Polarity>
<Crossover>0</Crossover>
<CutoffFreq>0</CutoffFreq>
<CutoffOrder>0</CutoffOrder>
<scores href="#ref-15"/>
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-16"/>
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-17"/>
<positionDelay href="#ref-18"/>
<Level href="#ref-19"/>
<TrimShift href="#ref-20"/>
<mayBeLarge>false</mayBeLarge>
<selectedCrossover>0</selectedCrossover>
<filterSampleRate>0</filterSampleRate>
<filterOffset>0</filterOffset>
</item>
<item>
<Channel>4</Channel>
<TrimLevel>INF</TrimLevel>
<MEQTrimLevel>INF</MEQTrimLevel>
<SpeakerType>SPEAKER_UNDETECTED</SpeakerType>
<Delay>0.104166664</Delay>
<Polarity>1</Polarity>
<Crossover>0</Crossover>
<CutoffFreq>0</CutoffFreq>
<CutoffOrder>0</CutoffOrder>
<scores href="#ref-21"/>
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-22"/>
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-23"/>
<positionDelay href="#ref-24"/>
<Level href="#ref-25"/>
<TrimShift href="#ref-26"/>
<mayBeLarge>false</mayBeLarge>
<selectedCrossover>0</selectedCrossover>
<filterSampleRate>0</filterSampleRate>
<filterOffset>0</filterOffset>
</item>
<item>
<Channel>5</Channel>
<TrimLevel>-12</TrimLevel>
<MEQTrimLevel>-12</MEQTrimLevel>
<SpeakerType>SUBWOOFER</SpeakerType>
<Delay>2.1875</Delay>
<Polarity>-1</Polarity>
<Crossover>0</Crossover>
<CutoffFreq>20</CutoffFreq>
<CutoffOrder>2</CutoffOrder>
<scores href="#ref-27"/>
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-28"/>
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-29"/>
<positionDelay href="#ref-30"/>
<Level href="#ref-31"/>
<TrimShift href="#ref-32"/>
<mayBeLarge>false</mayBeLarge>
<selectedCrossover>0</selectedCrossover>
<filterSampleRate>48000</filterSampleRate>
<filterOffset>-9</filterOffset>
</item>
<item>
<Channel>6</Channel>
<TrimLevel>-12</TrimLevel>
<MEQTrimLevel>-12</MEQTrimLevel>
<SpeakerType>SUBWOOFER</SpeakerType>
<Delay>3.54166675</Delay>
<Polarity>1</Polarity>
<Crossover>0</Crossover>
<CutoffFreq>20</CutoffFreq>
<CutoffOrder>5</CutoffOrder>
<scores href="#ref-33"/>
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-34"/>
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-35"/>
<positionDelay href="#ref-36"/>
<Level href="#ref-37"/>
<TrimShift href="#ref-38"/>
<mayBeLarge>false</mayBeLarge>
<selectedCrossover>0</selectedCrossover>
<filterSampleRate>48000</filterSampleRate>
<filterOffset>-9</filterOffset>

Observations (I am running active 3-way):

1. "Channel 1" = front left door, high & mid
"Channel 2" = front right door, high & mid
"Channel 3" = rear right door, no speaker
"Channel 4" = rear left door, no speaker
"Channel 5" = front right door, woofer
"Channel 6" = front left door, woofer

Curious as to how there can be two separate, active drivers (high & mid) on one channel? The displayed x-over is between mid and woofer but there is no x-over for the tweeter.

2. The high pass from woofer to mid is set at 170 which is right on the money and jives with the bottom of the frequency range of my 4" mids 

3. The delay on channels 1 and 2 is almost the same and that does not make sense of course.

4. The polarity on one of my mids is reversed. However, with multeq off, reversing the polarity of that woofer had an adverse effect on the bass notes.

The thing that bugged me the most is that I didn't know the x-over frequency for the tweeters. So I did a test. I unhooked the mids and the woofers so that only the tweets played. Then I listened to the tweets while switching in and out of multeq. I then adjusted the x-over on the HU in non-multeq mode until the requencies coming from the tweets was about the same in both modes. Here is the shocker: It is crossed over at about 6000 - 8000 Hz!!! That seems extremely high for me, especially since my tweets play down to 2500 Hz without a problem. Wouldn't it make sense, in order to raise the stage, to cross the tweeters much lower? Don't get me wrong, the stage with multeq on is plenty high lol, but I guess it is done via eq rather than x-overs.

I guess multeq is much more complex and goes way past conventional diy-tweaker wisdom in terms of what it does in order to achieve such an excellent sound stage and tonality.

But the low-end is still a bit of a disappointment. Increasing the gains on the amp after running imprint does not do much for impact at all.

I am not convinced though, that I can't come close to what imprint does with some intensive manual tuning. I have done the time correction and some level matching, and it actually sounds decent. I think I will invest in an RTA set-up to help me tweak the equalizer settings for a better (flatter) response (I can't do it by ear).

At this point I think I will return the imprint kit and try some manual tweaking and see where I can go with that.


----------



## gbraen

I have a iDA-X100 with PXA-H100, and that's almost the same thing as 9887 with Imprint. 

When using MultiEQ, the Imprint doesn't apply LPF on the subs, if I turn up the level the vocal appears in the subs. Anyone else had a problem with that? 

And yes, the low end sucks with this setup. Not very pleased...


----------



## quality_sound

kaigoss69 said:


> The thing that bugged me the most is that I didn't know the x-over frequency for the tweeters. So I did a test. I unhooked the mids and the woofers so that only the tweets played. Then I listened to the tweets while switching in and out of multeq. I then adjusted the x-over on the HU in non-multeq mode until the requencies coming from the tweets was about the same in both modes. Here is the shocker: It is crossed over at about 6000 - 8000 Hz!!! That seems extremely high for me, especially since my tweets play down to 2500 Hz without a problem. Wouldn't it make sense, in order to raise the stage, to cross the tweeters much lower? Don't get me wrong, the stage with multeq on is plenty high lol, but I guess it is done via eq rather than x-overs.


IME it's better to have a single driver doing all of the midrange than to try adn get your tweeter to play as low as possible. The mid driver being "slower" is less of a problem than the phase and localization problems cause by crossing at 2500Hz. 



> But the low-end is still a bit of a disappointment. Increasing the gains on the amp after running imprint does not do much for impact at all.


As other have said, lower the sub level all the way and then run Imprint again and it'll be fine.


----------



## kaigoss69

I am actually very pleased with the multeq set up right now. I managed to integrate a sub into my 3-way so effectively I am running 4-way. I split the sub signal between two amps (y-splitter RCAs) and I used the amps' x-overs to separate the frequencies. So the signal coming from the HU is 170 Hz down... I put a high pass of 65 Hz on the mid-woofers and a low pass of 75 Hz on the sub. Works very well! This gave me the added bass I was missing before. The only thing I need to work on is the sub phase, since the TA obviously is incrorrect between the mids and the sub. Overall very happy though!


----------



## gbraen

sonicnirvana said:


> Realize the "Real" "After" curve probably looks more like the "Before" curve. The output displayed by Imprint is marketing hype. If you ran an MSL before and after on it your would see this...


I measured the frequency before and after imprint, and to be honest Imprint is pretty good! Not exactly the same as showed in the software, but pretty close...


----------



## skinnyblike

Hi, it is possible to imprint in three way mode, you must have a simple passive filter to protect the tweeter as the setup up chirps are full range sweeps, use a high quality cap.
Once the setup has been done use the manual crossover to place a filter between mid and treble... imprint will only automatically place a filter between sub and mid, it wont do tweet/mid

The mid/tweet chirps will happen together...


----------



## 86mr2

skinnyblike said:


> Once the setup has been done use the manual crossover to place a filter between mid and treble... imprint will only automatically place a filter between sub and mid, it wont do tweet/mid
> 
> The mid/tweet chirps will happen together...


When you say manual crossover, do you mean external to the 9887? I thought that using Imprint made the built in (9887) crossover unuseable? If the mid/tweet chirps happen together does that mean Imprint will not perform T/A for the tweet seperately?


----------



## 86mr2

I was going back through this thread and noticed something I found very interesting. Kaigoss69's "after" curves look radically different from mine. His is basically flat over a large range, and mine is still pretty ragged and has a pronounced downward tilt from low midrange to high. 

I just found it interesting because of some of the other assertions that the curves shown do not reflect reality. I'm sure there is marketing smoothing applied, but to me it appears that the curve likely does reflect some degree of reality. 

I have not bothered to measure the result independantly yet, but certainly the system sounds rather like the displayed curve would suggest. Strongish bass and relaxed highs. I have not touched the system for 5 days other than listen to it because,well, after days of sound deadening and manual tuning, I've just been enjoying driving around listening to the Imprint results.


----------



## typericey

Had my car imprinted yesterday. The local Alpine distributor was kind enough to do it for me. Since he worked for Alpine, I let him do his thing without suggesting anything that I've read here. He went through the steps religiously -- put the mic in the 6 recommended positions, and all that. We put all the gains in my amp to middle position. In the end, we chose the "reference" and "reference with mid comp" to save in my hu. 

The end result? The midbass up to the highest frequencies sounded more linear, the soundstage more focused. Midbass had a _lot_ more punch and aggressiveness. Most of all, much less listening fatigue. All this compared to my own tuning. One big problem though: _the subwoofer stopped playing!_ Consistent with the observation of the other people here. The Alpine distributor guy said this shouldn't be the case, and that we should measure again. I scheduled it for another time as it was getting late. 

After the Alpine distributor guy left, I "cheated" a bit and lowered the gains on my mids/tweets then maxed out the gains on my sub. My sub started playing and the results were quite good! I'm sticking with Multi EQ on for everyday listening. But I'm sure my Imprint setting is not optimized, as I cheated to get my sub to play...


----------



## dvsadvocate

But wouldnt re-setting youre gains change your level matching with your head unit? Or you havent really done any level matching?


----------



## typericey

dvsadvocate said:


> But wouldnt re-setting youre gains change your level matching with your head unit? Or you havent really done any level matching?


The long answer:

Dennis of Perfect Circle's reason why he set the gains to 12 o'clock: So that the Audyssey/HU will have room to increase/decrease its output across the frequency spectrum. In short, Imprint will supposedly do the level matching for you.

In my case where I cheated the gains to bring the sub out, I tried setting the gains as high as possible (as close as possible to level-matching) but not quite optimized. No a major issue for me though, as I do not play my system at full tilt. Just enough to have satisfying in-cabin volume.


----------



## dvsadvocate

How long did the Imprint tuning to take?


----------



## Inside_line

Hello all,

I've just recently picked up the CDA-9886 w/H100 and mic kit for imprint. I was wondering where you guys place the mic after the first few positions. For me Pos 1 is center of drivers seat, Pos 2 center of back seat, Pos 3 center of Pass seat. Now for Pos 4 the computer icon looks like front left corner of the drivers seat or up on the drivers dash? I'm pretty sure the dash is not right as it's not a listening location, but placing it in the corner of a seat seems strange so I am wondering what everyone does to get all 6 readings. Also, thanks to all the guys that have been contributing their tuning tips... makes for a great board!


----------



## trainman0978

The six positions will be ( not in order ) middle of driver seat, middle of passenger seat, middle of front seats - kinda over the center console, middle of back seats, middle of left side rear passenger seat, middle of right side passenger seat. Try to keep the mike at the same vertical height for each position, and along the same line horizontally. In other words, the same distance from the head rest for each seat. Some folks say remove the head rest, try it each way to see what sounds better. You will most likely run the imprint 5 or 6 times tinkering with it....


----------



## 86mr2

Inside_line, 

I assumed from the picture provided on the screen that they meant the front left corner of the seat so I set my tripod there. Sure enough, the next point was the front right corner of the same seat. I assume that this is an effort to provide a reasonable average for everywhere your head will wind up if you move ther seat or while shoulder checking, looking around corners, etc. Maybe it even helps to even out some lobing issues with tweeters too far from midranges?

The positions that trainman978 describe are those used if you select "All" for measurement position rather than the driver's seat. I tried "All" once, but only ran a few positions. I noticed that the resulting curve had more bass, but the centre image was more to the right, (no big surprise). I was not crazy about it, so I ran it again for the driver's seat.


----------



## 1hawaii50

I have my CDA-9887 on the way, and I will be ordering the Imprint Kit soon. My question is, can you run Imprint, and is it worth it to run it, if you are not running any subs? My system consists of:
Polk MOMO MMC6500 components in the front doors
Polk MOMO MMC690 6 x 9 3 ways in the rear deck
All speakers powered by a Kicker ZX650.4...120w x 4
Fronts are run passive through the Polk crossover off of channels 1/2
rears are passive through Polk crossover off of channels 3/4

Again, is it worth it for me to buy the Imprint kit?

Thanks for your help!


----------



## 86mr2

Absolutely!

I have Alpine 171A components in the front and Alpine 170A coax's in the rear deck with no subs and Imprint tunes them just fine. I have the deck in 3 way mode with the components on front running from the High channels and the coax's in the rear running from the Mid channels. I'm even running from deck power right now.


----------



## 1hawaii50

86mr2 said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> I have Alpine 171A components in the front and Alpine 170A coax's in the rear deck with no subs and Imprint tunes them just fine. I have the deck in 3 way mode with the components on front running from the High channels and the coax's in the rear running from the Mid channels. I'm even running from deck power right now.


Great! That's what I wanted to hear. My deck isn't here yet, so I can't check it out, is there anything else I need to know to hook it up? Also, will I only get bass out of my rear 6 x 9's?


----------



## 86mr2

In my case the rears are only playing bass. The imprint software indicates there are no rear speakers when running, which makes sense since in three way mode they are really part of the "front" three-way. Interestingly enough, if I use the "All" choice when running Imprint, the rear seats sound pretty decent, and the bass seems fairly upfront - from the back seats!

I assume that if the switch is in two-way mode, then the rears would be detected and used as full ways, but I have no direct experience. In my Maxima, removing the deck to change the switch is a fair sized PITA so I have not tried the other setting.

Imprint has it's quirks, but to me, the results are fairly amazing for the minimal effort involved. Too bad the 9887 can't save more curves though.


----------



## kaigoss69

1hawaii50 said:


> Again, is it worth it for me to buy the Imprint kit?


For me, the answer to that question is definitely YES. I just came back from a 3500 mile road trip and I was listening to music the whole time and I never got tired of it and I bet I was driving around with a smile on my face the entire time. It took a while for me to get it this way but I would say right now the sound is nearly PERFECT.

But I am running a 3-way active front stage, much different from your set-up with passive components in the front and the rear, so your results may differ.


----------



## 1hawaii50

Thanks for the replies. Once I have all of my equipment, I'll check back if I have any other questions/problems.


----------



## bernardo

guys i have my imprint just on the drivers seat, but now i want it on the drivers and passenger seat.

not in the back seats..

how can i trick the computer just to do the front ones?

the imprint software just let me do 1 or all seats....


----------



## 86mr2

What I did was to select "All" and then whenever the prompt asked for a position in the back seat, I just did another position on one of the front seats. 

If you go to the Audyssey faq for microphone positioning for home theatre systems, it gives some usefull hints that, with imagination, you can apply to measurements in the car. I have not had time to try it myself, but i will on my next tuning run.

http://www.audyssey.com/faq/index.html#recommendedpositions

Actually the whole faq is very educational, and has got me thinking about a imprint enabled receiver.


----------



## bernardo

86mr2 said:


> What I did was to select "All" and then whenever the prompt asked for a position in the back seat, I just did another position on one of the front seats.
> 
> If you go to the Audyssey faq for microphone positioning for home theatre systems, it gives some usefull hints that, with imagination, you can apply to measurements in the car. I have not had time to try it myself, but i will on my next tuning run.
> 
> http://www.audyssey.com/faq/index.html#recommendedpositions
> 
> Actually the whole faq is very educational, and has got me thinking about a imprint enabled receiver.


thanks a lot, this is a interesting reading, and thanks for the advice.

Actually im so happy with my car Imprint, that im planning on buying an ONKYO with Audyssey 2EQ for my Home.


----------



## Jopop

86mr2 said:


> What I did was to select "All" and then whenever the prompt asked for a position in the back seat, I just did another position on one of the front seats.
> 
> If you go to the Audyssey faq for microphone positioning for home theatre systems, it gives some usefull hints that, with imagination, you can apply to measurements in the car. I have not had time to try it myself, but i will on my next tuning run.
> 
> http://www.audyssey.com/faq/index.html#recommendedpositions
> 
> Actually the whole faq is very educational, and has got me thinking about a imprint enabled receiver.


By Imprint you mean Audyssey MultEQ right?

I am considering buying the imprint bundle but i do think it is a little expensive and i dunno if I'd like the end result or not.

I have an Onkyo 705 A/V receiver with Audyssey MultEQ and it's pretty much the same as the Imprint in the 9887 i guess. The experience I have in my home is that it gives a very natural and smooth likeable sound in the boundaries you create with your mic positions. Also the bass might not be overbearing like most car guys would like but it's really realistic and punchy and the sub just blends in perfectly with the other speakers, it blends so good it's not even funny. You'd never guess i have a sub unless i turn it off while playing a track.

As for A/Bing with / without audyssey on in the main listening position the bass seems to almost transform from a natural, punchy, strong & dry bass to a boomy muddy mess without any real output and the midbass just disappears (i think this is because audyssey applies time correction to keep the fronts and sub in absolute phase).

Walking around in the room with audyssey off you get very large variations in the overall tonality and bass response depending on which seat you have in the couch, with audyssey on it's fairly good all the way although it's best in the main position.


As for the staging, with audyssey on it's superb in every manner (centered on screen etc), but i think it is a little deeper and a lil bit wider with it off as long as the sub is off but it's hard to tell due to long delay when switching audyssey on/off.





I think Imprint is mostly a tool for making the frequency response fairly equivalent throughout the cabin and give the driver a good soundstage. I think i can get similar if not better results (i.e. sound and staging) in the driver seat with a PC measurement setup (i.e. roomeq wizard), and you have the added luxury of tweaking to suit your personal taste.


So i dunno if it's worth it or if i should take some time to learn PC room tuning software. I have the gear ready no problem..


----------



## 86mr2

Jopop said:


> By Imprint you mean Audyssey MultEQ right?


Oops, correct.


----------



## Umaronly

All of this discussion brings me to a couple of questions people, and though i have read most all of this thread, forgive me if i missed out on the answers. First, having a new set of speaker, they normally take a hundred or so hours to come to their performance level, so is it better to wait for this period and then use imprint? Second, since a lot of you guys are complaining about lack of punch in the bass although a lot seem to agree the bass feels much better blended in the music, does it really pay to have a huge powerful sub setup like the jl audio w6 or 7 or would one be better off with a more moderately sized and powered sub setup if one does not intend to 'churn it up' and is happy the way natural music sounds? Third, can any one pls elaborate the differences between the three imprint curves in terms of the resultant sq? Waiting impatiently for the answers people  thanks in advance


----------



## kaigoss69

Some speakers need more break-in then others. My Dynaudio MW160's needed about 100 hours or so until they produced tight, deep bass without bottoming out (popping). Other speakers may require less or no break-in. When in doubt, wait or re-do the calibration later (you'll probably end up doing it over and over again anyhow, trust me).

Before imprint, I had 1000W going to my subs. I felt I needed that kind of power. Now, I have invested in better midbass (2 in the front and 2 in the rear doors) and that really helped tremendously. Now I am happy with one sub and about 350W. Like you said, it "blends" much better now and it sounds so good you don't want to overpower the rest of the system. This happens more or less subconsciously.

Regarding the sound of the different curves, I only tried two of them, reference and linear. I ended up using the one with more high-end roll-off (linear?) as the other one was a tad too bright for me. I even ended up reducing the treble to -2 and now it is perfect for my ears. Other than the highs, I did not notice any difference between the two curves.


----------



## bernardo

Umaronly said:


> All of this discussion brings me to a couple of questions people, and though i have read most all of this thread, forgive me if i missed out on the answers. First, having a new set of speaker, they normally take a hundred or so hours to come to their performance level, so is it better to wait for this period and then use imprint? Second, since a lot of you guys are complaining about lack of punch in the bass although a lot seem to agree the bass feels much better blended in the music, does it really pay to have a huge powerful sub setup like the jl audio w6 or 7 or would one be better off with a more moderately sized and powered sub setup if one does not intend to 'churn it up' and is happy the way natural music sounds? Third, can any one pls elaborate the differences between the three imprint curves in terms of the resultant sq? Waiting impatiently for the answers people  thanks in advance


 
I recently change my Polk DB for the Polk SR components, Im going to "Imprint" my car, and maybe on a month I will do it again.
I dont think there is much difference, but if you are going to rent it on crutchfield, maybe you should wait a few weeks if your speakers are brand new, *and remember to warm them up a little before calibration.*

*About the bass:*
I have a Polk SR sub, with 750 RMS aprox, I like the bass on my car, and it feels very natural, I dont think its lack of bass on my setup, (actually sometimes feels deeper and harder).

but just a few things to remember:

*Read the KTX-100EQ Manual (all of it)
**put the subwoofer level on your HU in 0 before you do the "imprint"*
*take off the headrest before the "imprint calibration"
*the crossover is going to put your subs LPF at 40hz aprox (thats how its suppossed to be, in SQ terms)
*so, a good sound deadner can make a huge difference since the software is going to avoid any kind of vibrations...

I discover this becouse, my drivers door have a little rattle when the window is fully closed.
I ran the "imprint" and i felt less bass on the drivers door, and better bass on the passengers door. 
I ran it again but with the drivers door a bit opened, (to avoid the rattle), and then at the end i get a good mid bass on both doors.

maybe thats happening on some other cars, maybe vibrations on the trunk can make the "imprint calibration" to EQ less bass.

*Since your sub is going to be LPF at 40hz or something like that, I think a good sub is going to emphatize a deeper bass, a big JL would be a good option.

*Most of the bass is going to come from your woofers instead of your subwoofer, thats how the front stage work

*About the Imprint Curves:*

In my personal opinion, i didnt like the "linear" so i choose reference, and reference comp

I dont know the differences in SQ, but maybe someone can explain both of us the differences.


----------



## Umaronly

Actually i am looking to understand the sound characteristics of each curve, since i am looking for a rich warm sound which has tons of detail but is not overly bright. Secondly, i do not understand why with my system done once properly will i need to keep doing the calibration..is once not good enough?


----------



## bernardo

Umaronly said:


> Actually i am looking to understand the sound characteristics of each curve, since i am looking for a rich warm sound which has tons of detail but is not overly bright. Secondly, i do not understand why with my system done once properly will i need to keep doing the calibration..is once not good enough?


do it well at the first time, and just do it once.

just re-run it if you change anything on the system, or if the sound doesnt fit your expectatives


----------



## jfokkema

Hi all!

Like you Kaigoss69, I've runned the Imprint measurement also quite a few times now 

After getting exhausted ears of the bright soundstage, I decided to add some extra compo's to my doors. Now I've got 2 midbass woofers running parallel in each front doors, with one passive filtered tweeter connected. However, with a measurement in all the 6 standard positions still the midbass or kickbass lacked punch and was not to compensate with increased subwoofer level.

Just finished the second measurement cycle with now all 6 in front seat position. WHAT AN INCREDIBLE IMPROVEMENT! I really did not expect this much of a change. just...w0w.

I stick with this the coming period to see if my initial enthusiasm will stick. For some strange reason it deleted the 1rst memory slot, although I only loaded it on the 2nd. Well, whatever.

Cheers all.

Jeroen


----------



## 86mr2

jfokkema said:


> For some strange reason it deleted the 1rst memory slot, although I only loaded it on the 2nd. Well, whatever.


As near as I can determine, every time you run Imprint, it erases both curve memories in the 9887, so it is not possible to keep one curve from a previous tuning run. 

I use the "Reference" and "Reference with Midrange comp" curves. The linear one sounds artificial to me and voices can sound hollow.


----------



## alleng

I have had my W505 with xm for almost 3 months now, been working great except for the ipod touch video problem. I just got my Alpine PXA-H100 Imprint Processor and I put it in yesterday. It sounds much better even before I did the mesurement.

I did run into a major problem though. Now with the imprint hooked up I get no sound from my XM!!!
I do see the channel information but just don't get any sound. I have the newer audiovox CMP2000UC xm adapter. With it you program it for your headunit over usb. The W505 is not listed but every other alpine radio this year is. When I originally installed it I choose W205 as the model and it worked until I hooked up the imprint. Today I have also tried the iDA-X100, CDA-9886, and IVA-D106 all with the same problem. I even took out the imprint to make sure I did not blow it during install and the xm still works.

At this point I am stumped. I have contacted Cruchfield, Alpine, and Audiovox. It seems to come down to the fact that it just doesn't work or the a new firmware is needed for the xm. 

Here is the how I have it hooked up (correctly according to alpine support). The W505 out to the XM, out of the XM and into the "to HU" plug on the Imprint. I also tried it with the imprint before the xm with the same problem.

This is just making me mad. Anyone know how to fix this, if not will it work with the sirus tuner?


----------



## ninogui

Hi there guys


i have the 9887 running active with the hertz mlk-165 kit 2 way plus a focal 27 lux sub.

connections are as follows:

upper rca´s/front -> on the mid range/mid woofers
mid rca´s/rear -> on the tweeters (yes that´s what 9887 manual states, and is correct!)
low rca´s/sub -> sub

I hpf the tweeters for the maximum the boston amp can do, which is 350Hz with a 0.7 queue (yes i know, its low but that´s what the boston can do, it´s an amp designed for full range speakers), but i think this would be just a moral setting, with no practical advantage.

i did the imprint, both the evaluated and the resulting wave had a huge peak at around 30Hz, but for the remaining freqs the resulting wave become much linear.

this is a sum up of the resulting sound evaluation file (calibResults.xml):

<SOAP-ENC:Array SOAP-ENC:arrayType="a1etectionResult[6]" xmlns:a1="http://schemas.microsoft.com/clr/nsassem/Audyssey/MultEQ%2C%20Version%3D2.2.6.0%2C%20Culture%3Dneutral%2C%20PublicKeyToken%3D3e91b7b9144c24c3">
- <item>
<Channel>1</Channel> 
<TrimLevel>5.239647</TrimLevel> 
<MEQTrimLevel>5.239647</MEQTrimLevel> 
<SpeakerType>SPEAKER_SMALL</SpeakerType> 
<Delay>5.52083349</Delay> 
<Polarity>1</Polarity> 
<Crossover>40</Crossover> 
<CutoffFreq>20</CutoffFreq> 
<CutoffOrder>2</CutoffOrder> 
<scores href="#ref-3" /> 
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-4" /> 
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-5" /> 
<positionDelay href="#ref-6" /> 
<Level href="#ref-7" /> 
<TrimShift href="#ref-8" /> 
<mayBeLarge>false</mayBeLarge> 
<selectedCrossover>40</selectedCrossover> 
<filterSampleRate>48000</filterSampleRate> 
<filterOffset>-9</filterOffset> 
</item>
- <item>
<Channel>2</Channel> 
<TrimLevel>3.42198944</TrimLevel> 
<MEQTrimLevel>3.42198944</MEQTrimLevel> 
<SpeakerType>SPEAKER_SMALL</SpeakerType> 
<Delay>5.5</Delay> 
<Polarity>1</Polarity> 
<Crossover>80</Crossover> 
<CutoffFreq>20</CutoffFreq> 
<CutoffOrder>2</CutoffOrder> 
<scores href="#ref-9" /> 
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-10" /> 
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-11" /> 
<positionDelay href="#ref-12" /> 
<Level href="#ref-13" /> 
<TrimShift href="#ref-14" /> 
<mayBeLarge>false</mayBeLarge> 
<selectedCrossover>80</selectedCrossover> 
<filterSampleRate>48000</filterSampleRate> 
<filterOffset>-9</filterOffset> 
</item>
- <item>
<Channel>3</Channel> 
<TrimLevel>INF</TrimLevel> 
<MEQTrimLevel>INF</MEQTrimLevel> 
<SpeakerType>SPEAKER_UNDETECTED</SpeakerType> 
<Delay>0.104166664</Delay> 
<Polarity>1</Polarity> 
<Crossover>0</Crossover> 
<CutoffFreq>0</CutoffFreq> 
<CutoffOrder>0</CutoffOrder> 
<scores href="#ref-15" /> 
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-16" /> 
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-17" /> 
<positionDelay href="#ref-18" /> 
<Level href="#ref-19" /> 
<TrimShift href="#ref-20" /> 
<mayBeLarge>false</mayBeLarge> 
<selectedCrossover>0</selectedCrossover> 
<filterSampleRate>0</filterSampleRate> 
<filterOffset>0</filterOffset> 
</item>
- <item>
<Channel>4</Channel> 
<TrimLevel>INF</TrimLevel> 
<MEQTrimLevel>INF</MEQTrimLevel> 
<SpeakerType>SPEAKER_UNDETECTED</SpeakerType> 
<Delay>0.104166664</Delay> 
<Polarity>1</Polarity> 
<Crossover>0</Crossover> 
<CutoffFreq>0</CutoffFreq> 
<CutoffOrder>0</CutoffOrder> 
<scores href="#ref-21" /> 
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-22" /> 
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-23" /> 
<positionDelay href="#ref-24" /> 
<Level href="#ref-25" /> 
<TrimShift href="#ref-26" /> 
<mayBeLarge>false</mayBeLarge> 
<selectedCrossover>0</selectedCrossover> 
<filterSampleRate>0</filterSampleRate> 
<filterOffset>0</filterOffset> 
</item>
- <item>
<Channel>5</Channel> 
<TrimLevel>-5.239647</TrimLevel> 
<MEQTrimLevel>-5.239647</MEQTrimLevel> 
<SpeakerType>SUBWOOFER</SpeakerType> 
<Delay>6.58333349</Delay> 
<Polarity>1</Polarity> 
<Crossover>0</Crossover> 
<CutoffFreq>20</CutoffFreq> 
<CutoffOrder>5</CutoffOrder> 
<scores href="#ref-27" /> 
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-28" /> 
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-29" /> 
<positionDelay href="#ref-30" /> 
<Level href="#ref-31" /> 
<TrimShift href="#ref-32" /> 
<mayBeLarge>false</mayBeLarge> 
<selectedCrossover>0</selectedCrossover> 
<filterSampleRate>48000</filterSampleRate> 
<filterOffset>-9</filterOffset> 
</item>
- <item>
<Channel>6</Channel> 
<TrimLevel>-5.14417267</TrimLevel> 
<MEQTrimLevel>-5.14417267</MEQTrimLevel> 
<SpeakerType>SUBWOOFER</SpeakerType> 
<Delay>6.5625</Delay> 
<Polarity>1</Polarity> 
<Crossover>0</Crossover> 
<CutoffFreq>20</CutoffFreq> 
<CutoffOrder>5</CutoffOrder> 
<scores href="#ref-33" /> 
<bestCutoffIndex href="#ref-34" /> 
<bestCutoffSlope href="#ref-35" /> 
<positionDelay href="#ref-36" /> 
<Level href="#ref-37" /> 
<TrimShift href="#ref-38" /> 
<mayBeLarge>false</mayBeLarge> 
<selectedCrossover>0</selectedCrossover> 
<filterSampleRate>48000</filterSampleRate> 
<filterOffset>-9</filterOffset> 


I then exported to the HU the reference and ref with mid range compensation waves.
You will note that apparently the tweeters are stated as "SPEAKER_UNDETECTED", and in fact i heard no sound at all coming from their respective pass on the imprint operation.

I have seen this on some of the files posted here.

Is this how it is supposed to be.?

Maybe the speaker_undetected is on purpose to avoid the low freq blops being sent to the channel?

the sound became good enough, just not such a huge upgrade from my own manual setting, although stage a bit higher and generally sound is cleaner.

Hope someone can help on this issue guys, care to comment.?



Rgds


----------



## placenta

ninogui said:


> i have the 9887 running active with the hertz mlk-165 kit 2 way plus a focal 27 lux sub.
> 
> connections are as follows:
> 
> upper rca´s/front -> on the mid range/mid woofers
> mid rca´s/rear -> on the tweeters (yes that´s what 9887 manual states, and is correct!)
> low rca´s/sub -> sub


I hope you mixed that up. Cuz the tweet RCA is the upper one on the 9887. the mid RCA is the middle one. Your front and rear is correct as far as terminology, but your "upper" and "middle" is backwards. The rear (tweet) is the TOP rca, but im sure thats how you have it or it wouldnt be working.


----------



## bernardo

placenta said:


> I hope you mixed that up. Cuz the tweet RCA is the upper one on the 9887. the mid RCA is the middle one. Your front and rear is correct as far as terminology, but your "upper" and "middle" is backwards. The rear (tweet) is the TOP rca, but im sure thats how you have it or it wouldnt be working.


 
^^x2

in change your HU to 3 way and put the tweets on high, and woofers on mid.

i also have the 9887 and thats what the manual says

check the manual in english, im from mexico and the spanish version have a lot of mistakes (a lot)


----------



## veloze

placenta said:


> I hope you mixed that up. Cuz the tweet RCA is the upper one on the 9887. the mid RCA is the middle one. Your front and rear is correct as far as terminology, but your "upper" and "middle" is backwards. The rear (tweet) is the TOP rca, but im sure thats how you have it or it wouldnt be working.





bernardo said:


> ^^x2
> 
> in change your HU to 3 way and put the tweets on high, and woofers on mid.
> 
> i also have the 9887 and thats what the manual says
> 
> check the manual in english, im from mexico and the spanish version have a lot of mistakes (a lot)


I've just got a new 9897 for my 94 Honda Accord (daily driver), and planning to install it pretty soon. I'm going to bi-amp my front components w/ a PDX 5 amp, so for sure I have to put the switch to 3way, correct? 

Let me get this one straight. So you guys are saying the right way to connect the RCA's is: front output to the MB, rear output to the TW, and the other one to the SUBS, right?

I did a similar install with my 505 & the H100, and the rca's connections are pretty much the same as above, and it's working great.

Last thing, do I have to set the system switch to EQ/DIV or leave it to NORM, even though I don't have the IMPRINT kit yet. Please advise.


----------



## ninogui

placenta said:


> I hope you mixed that up. Cuz the tweet RCA is the upper one on the 9887. the mid RCA is the middle one. Your front and rear is correct as far as terminology, but your "upper" and "middle" is backwards. The rear (tweet) is the TOP rca, but im sure thats how you have it or it wouldnt be working.


yes ok, my mishap. i always meant "rear" for tweeter lolol sorry.

but anyone care to comment on the "speaker_undetected" issue on the xml file.?

I also do not agree with you bernardo on an issue.. take the headrests before the imprint. Why should i do that? the headrests will be a part of the car, and have to be accounted for in global sound reflection (in fact, absortion i would say)


greets


----------



## bernardo

ninogui said:


> yes ok, my mishap. i always meant "rear" for tweeter lolol sorry.
> 
> but anyone care to comment on the "speaker_undetected" issue on the xml file.?
> 
> I also do not agree with you bernardo on an issue.. take the headrests before the imprint. Why should i do that? the headrests will be a part of the car, and have to be accounted for in global sound reflection (in fact, absortion i would say)
> 
> 
> greets


its a tip given me by "Alpine Mexico" (I live in mexico city).

just try it!

I may be wrong, but i do feel a difference in bass response.


----------



## ninogui

bernardo said:


> its a tip given me by "Alpine Mexico" (I live in mexico city).
> 
> just try it!
> 
> I may be wrong, but i do feel a difference in bass response.


ok, i´ll give it a go.. suspiciously lolol

found out a tip at crutchfield forums for people complaining about lack of bass.. besides turning down the sub gain to about mid way (instead of 3/4) get the sub lpf to a higher value than the one regularly used, for instance if u use it at 40-60Hz get it on 150Hz), of course sub at 0 on 9887R hu. After the imprint get them back all to regular, my result now is... i almost don´t need the sub over value 2 or 3! bass is front and present, very nicely staged and shaped.




rgds


----------



## ninogui

Hi there guys,

would someone be kind enough to upload somewhere the last version of imprint sound manager.?

mine is 1.10, probably too old.



thks a lot

edit: i already got it, arigato sent it.! thks a lot arigato.!


----------



## coolman_wrx

so far so good im using Imprint, the staging is perfectly center n the sound clear enough. 


is not a matter what u have, is a matter how u use it


----------



## bernardo

coolman_wrx said:


> so far so good im using Imprint, the staging is perfectly center n the sound clear enough.
> 
> 
> is not a matter what u have, is a matter how u use it


I agree

I recently re-do my imprint calibration, and i put the mic at the ear level, but with the seat all the way to the front

i was hoping to have a smother sound, not like the speaker next to me, and i get it, now i feel the speakers in front of me but like at 5 feet of distance.

i do the six positions in just the 3 front places, im very pleased, and the sub blend great, even when i put the sub level at 15, the bass is in the front stage and well blended with my mids.


----------



## 1hawaii50

I ran my imprint on my setup, and the sound was totally different from what I'm used to. The music was not bass heavy at all (I'm not running any subs right now, just comps in the front, and 6 x 9's in the rear). If I turn of the multi-EQ, I can get a little thump from my Mid's and my rears, but when I turn it back on it all goes away. I'm thinking I really need to add a sub. As far as sound quality, the more I listen to it with "imprint" on, the more it's growing on me. It definitely brings the soundstage right up to my ears. I never noticed it before, but now when I turn multi-EQ off, it sounds like the music goes right to the floor (my 6 1/2 from comps are in the bottom of the doors). So all in all, I think the sound quality/staging is much better with imprint, but without my having any subs, I really don't get any bass at all. If anybody know a fix for the bass other than adding subs, please let me know.

I'm currently running Polk MOMO MMC6500 comps up front, MOMO MMC690 in the rear deck, powered by a Kicker ZX650.4 amp.


----------



## Ztein

Hi, try to set the bass to minimum on the equlizer. Before I did that and run
Imprint. I dint have any bass left. So when I turned off the bass before running Imprint, the bass tuned up... Maby not perfect but I have bass.

Try it..

Stein 
Norway



1hawaii50 said:


> I ran my imprint on my setup, and the sound was totally different from what I'm used to. The music was not bass heavy at all (I'm not running any subs right now, just comps in the front, and 6 x 9's in the rear). If I turn of the multi-EQ, I can get a little thump from my Mid's and my rears, but when I turn it back on it all goes away. I'm thinking I really need to add a sub. As far as sound quality, the more I listen to it with "imprint" on, the more it's growing on me. It definitely brings the soundstage right up to my ears. I never noticed it before, but now when I turn multi-EQ off, it sounds like the music goes right to the floor (my 6 1/2 from comps are in the bottom of the doors). So all in all, I think the sound quality/staging is much better with imprint, but without my having any subs, I really don't get any bass at all. If anybody know a fix for the bass other than adding subs, please let me know.
> 
> I'm currently running Polk MOMO MMC6500 comps up front, MOMO MMC690 in the rear deck, powered by a Kicker ZX650.4 amp.


----------



## 1hawaii50

Stein,

Are you running subs, or not?


----------



## Ztein

No I dont have a sub. Just 2 door speakers and 2 in the back. Focal 6.5" with a Alpint 9887 Stereo and Ipod Classic 160gb.

I cant find a sutible place for a sub in my MB E240.

Stein




1hawaii50 said:


> Stein,
> 
> Are you running subs, or not?


----------



## Jopop

Ztein said:


> Hi, try to set the bass to minimum on the equlizer. Before I did that and run
> Imprint. I dint have any bass left. So when I turned off the bass before running Imprint, the bass tuned up... Maby not perfect but I have bass.
> 
> Try it..
> 
> Stein
> Norway


Hello Stein! Are you interested in renting out your imprint kit? I am located in Norway too, in Porsgrunn. I would pay postage back/forth and a little extra for your trouble.

Feel free to reply on PM, in Norwegian if you like.

Regards, Jo


----------



## grampi

After my intial system setup using the Imprint device I thought my system sounded wonderful. Then I spent some time setting up the system manually and it now sounds infinitely better the way I have it setup. When I turn on MultEQ it sounds like all of the sound is coming from one speaker in the middle of the dash and the bass response is weak. When I turn off MultEQ my sound stage is wide and fairly deep and I can actually hear the different locations of the instruments. My bass response is much better as well. Bottom line; Imprint is a waste of money, but I really like the 9887.


----------



## placenta

grampi said:


> After my intial system setup using the Imprint device I thought my system sounded wonderful. Then I spent some time setting up the system manually and it now sounds infinitely better the way I have it setup. When I turn on MultEQ it sounds like all of the sound is coming from one speaker in the middle of the dash and the bass response is weak. When I turn off MultEQ my sound stage is wide and fairly deep and I can actually hear the different locations of the instruments. My bass response is much better as well. Bottom line; Imprint is a waste of money, but I really like the 9887.


i know youve spent a lot of time overall w imprint, and thanks for reminding me not to waste my money. i think about this from time to time. but i still think my system is perfect..... after like 2-3 weeks.. wow.


----------



## bernardo

I dont think its a waste of money, but i do think that you should know some tricks, and play a lot with the calibration,

the possitions, the amp gains, the sub level and all the factors, make a huge difference.

so i think its not the imprint, its how do you use it.

same as audio, its how you install it


----------



## 86mr2

I'm with Bernardo on this. Imprint is almost like another tuning variable and it needs practice and research to give the best results. 

It also works better with a better install. That means all the usual things, paying attention to sound deadening, driver placement, and gains. I have had some really ugly results after an Imprint run, but generally due to some mistake I have made in mic placement or leaving the subwoofer level turned up. In my install, tweeter level and placement seems to be very important. Removing the headrests seems pretty darn helpful too.

There are very helpfull posts on the Crutchfield website from one of The Alpine trainers. 

In my case, Imprint does a better job of tuning than I do. I am happy with my 9887 and the Imprint kit. I consider them both money well spent.


----------



## bernardo

86mr2 said:


> I'm with Bernardo on this. Imprint is almost like another tuning variable and it needs practice and research to give the best results.
> 
> It also works better with a better install. That means all the usual things, paying attention to sound deadening, driver placement, and gains. I have had some really ugly results after an Imprint run, but generally due to some mistake I have made in mic placement or leaving the subwoofer level turned up. In my install, tweeter level and placement seems to be very important. Removing the headrests seems pretty darn helpful too.
> 
> There are very helpfull posts on the Crutchfield website from one of The Alpine trainers.
> 
> In my case, Imprint does a better job of tuning than I do. I am happy with my 9887 and the Imprint kit. I consider them both money well spent.


Actually the HU and the Imprint module, both together are the best improvement in my car audio.

and as 86mr2 said, sometimes due to 1 mistake the car sounds awful, but when you take your time and follow all the tips, the sound gets outstanding.

*for the guy who complains about the imprint module*, i recently discover a new trick, so put your gains (of the comps amp) a little above normal, and run the imprint (following all the other tips...)

after the imprint you should put your gains down again.

try it, you already buy the imprint module, so...


----------



## grampi

Sounds like I need to read up on some of these Imprint tips and give it a few more tries. I've only used it once and it may very well sound like crap because I need to work with the Imprint some more. When I get some free time I'll play around with it.


----------



## trainman0978

I have a interesting situation for you guys. I ran the imprint last week , and selected the listening area as the two front seats only. Here is what I am working with as far as components go. The 9887 , sundown SAX100.4 , set of JL XR653-CSi ( 3 way set comps ) up front, and a set of JL XR650-CSi ( 2 way comps ) in the rear seating area. Along with a pair of 12 inch type-Rs in the back. So , I ran the imprint and I noticed the drivers side rear set of comps were not playing very loud. , So much so when using the balance/fader settings, there was a very noticeable difference in not only clarity, but the range of sounds that were being played for every song. I chalked it up to time alignment and crossover settings within the imprint. I didn't like it. So today I ran the imprint again, this time four all four seating positions like I had it previously . Same problem. Drivers side rear set of comps not performing like the passenger side. And I noticed that the 6-3/4" woofer was sounding very muddy and sloppy afterwards, and once again the tweeter wasn't playing at all , just like it was under the previous imprint curves. I even tried turning the input voltage down on the 4 ch. amp a bit, and that helped with the 6 - 3/4" sounding sloppy , but I know that is not the fix. Here is the Kicker, when I turn the imprint off, the woofer and the tweeter seem to work. Now they don't sound as good as the passenger side, but both speakers seem to play none the less. So I am thinking , could it be possible that either I have a bad crossover box, or that maybe I have some how blown the woofer and the tweeter on the drivers side rear? I thought the JL comp sets had protection circuits built into the crossover boxes? Would it be worth my time to got out and swap crossover boxes around or try the tweeter on another crossover ? 

After running the imprint, I think It may have realized something was wrong and just eliminated any signal goin to the tweeter on the drivers rear, cause the stereo as a whole sounds fine, you don't really notice it isn't playing until ou put your ear up to the component set... 

any ideas...????


----------



## narcosis29

Would like to ask if anyone has the latest or know where to get the latest imprint software??
Just reverted back to 3 way active in my car...
However the sounds doesn't come out right...
Wondering if its something to do with the software..


----------



## ck279

86mr2 said:


> I'm with Bernardo on this. Imprint is almost like another tuning variable and it needs practice and research to give the best results.
> 
> It also works better with a better install. That means all the usual things, paying attention to sound deadening, driver placement, and gains. I have had some really ugly results after an Imprint run, but generally due to some mistake I have made in mic placement or leaving the subwoofer level turned up. In my install, tweeter level and placement seems to be very important. Removing the headrests seems pretty darn helpful too.
> 
> There are very helpfull posts on the Crutchfield website from one of The Alpine trainers.
> 
> In my case, Imprint does a better job of tuning than I do. I am happy with my 9887 and the Imprint kit. I consider them both money well spent.



86mr2...

I am the owner of a 91' MR2. Out of curiosity how did you run (what section/seating section) did you set up your Imprint with? I ask because I have yet to get anything resembling an even (L to R) output. For example in my most recent tune it seems like 80% of the output is coming from the right channel. I have tried multiple positions (within a given location) for the mic to no avail. 

I keep thinking that the small, two seat cabin of the MR2 is the inherent "problem". If you could give any recomendations or describe your choices during the Imprint set-up I would greatly appreciate it.


Thank You,

Carl


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## 86mr2

Unfortunately, my handle is old. The MR2 finally died and I replaced it with a 1995 Maxima, which is the car with the 9887.

I have had at least one Imprint run result in a strong bias to one side, but I cannot remember why - probably I put the microphone in the wrong place for the first measurement. Have you tried taking the first measurement in the middle of the console? 

The other suggestion is to make sure that you have the balance control in the middle. Imprint respects some settings like crossovers and subwoofer level so who knows, maybe it does the balance control as well.


----------



## 1hawaii50

I just ran Imprint for the second time on my Altima, and I fixed the "no-bass" issue, but now my sound seems to be passenger side biased. I did remove the headrests, but put them on the passenger front floorboord. The first Imprint I ran, I had the headrests on the rear floor. I'll have to run it again with the headrests in back and see what happens.


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## Brainfry

*Imprint Kit (KTX-100EQ) FOR SALE*

New in box.

Anyone interested?

Thanks,

B


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## kaigoss69

The first measurement does the time correction so make sure the mic is where your head would be. Removing the head rests is a good idea as it allows you to place the mic on top of the seat which for me was about ear level. Then just slide the seat forward slightly, to align with the position where you head would normally be at when driving. Make sure the mic is at ear level height for each measurement, or the results won't be good. Do all 6 positions as the program suggests. Make sure there is nothing blocking the speakers, i.e. objects between the speakers and the mic, other then the seats of course. If you do this, and set the gains correctly, you should get excellent results. 

Oh, and don't give up after your first session, I literally did it about 15 or 20 times until I had it RIGHT!


----------



## 1hawaii50

kaigoss69 said:


> The first measurement does the time correction so make sure the mic is where your head would be. Removing the head rests is a good idea as it allows you to place the mic on top of the seat which for me was about ear level. Then just slide the seat forward slightly, to align with the position where you head would normally be at when driving. Make sure the mic is at ear level height for each measurement, or the results won't be good. Do all 6 positions as the program suggests. Make sure there is nothing blocking the speakers, i.e. objects between the speakers and the mic, other then the seats of course. If you do this, and set the gains correctly, you should get excellent results.
> 
> Oh, and don't give up after your first session, I literally did it about 15 or 20 times until I had it RIGHT!


Is there a recommended setting for the amp gains before you Imprint, or do you just set them as you normally would?


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## kaigoss69

I would start with gain(s) at 50%. I had some problems with the gains, since I had three amps at one time, and it is not so easy to match gains when the amps are different makes and have different input sensitivities and resistances.


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## 86mr2

I would suggest putting the headrests on the front floor is likely a poor choice. I just throw mine on the back seat where i doubt they contribute much to the "room" response.

I have a right hand bias right now because my leg blocks the current tweeter position, and the tweeter level is a little too high. I was using a different tweeter in the same position a couple of weeks ago, and it exhibited the same problem. I improved the situation in that case by modifying the mounting position to aim the tweeters sightly more on axis and by dropping the tweeter level by 6db (insanely bright Alpine component set!). 

I have now installed Seas Neo's and I have not had time to modify the mount to aim them. The tweeter level is higher again as they are more efficient than the Alpines. There is a slight right-hand bias I can live with until I get ambitious enough to pull my door panels again.


----------



## trainman0978

trainman0978 said:


> I have a interesting situation for you guys. I ran the imprint last week , and selected the listening area as the two front seats only. Here is what I am working with as far as components go. The 9887 , sundown SAX100.4 , set of JL XR653-CSi ( 3 way set comps ) up front, and a set of JL XR650-CSi ( 2 way comps ) in the rear seating area. Along with a pair of 12 inch type-Rs in the back. So , I ran the imprint and I noticed the drivers side rear set of comps were not playing very loud. , So much so when using the balance/fader settings, there was a very noticeable difference in not only clarity, but the range of sounds that were being played for every song. I chalked it up to time alignment and crossover settings within the imprint. I didn't like it. So today I ran the imprint again, this time four all four seating positions like I had it previously . Same problem. Drivers side rear set of comps not performing like the passenger side. And I noticed that the 6-3/4" woofer was sounding very muddy and sloppy afterwards, and once again the tweeter wasn't playing at all , just like it was under the previous imprint curves. I even tried turning the input voltage down on the 4 ch. amp a bit, and that helped with the 6 - 3/4" sounding sloppy , but I know that is not the fix. Here is the Kicker, when I turn the imprint off, the woofer and the tweeter seem to work. Now they don't sound as good as the passenger side, but both speakers seem to play none the less. So I am thinking , could it be possible that either I have a bad crossover box, or that maybe I have some how blown the woofer and the tweeter on the drivers side rear? I thought the JL comp sets had protection circuits built into the crossover boxes? Would it be worth my time to got out and swap crossover boxes around or try the tweeter on another crossover ?
> 
> After running the imprint, I think It may have realized something was wrong and just eliminated any signal goin to the tweeter on the drivers rear, cause the stereo as a whole sounds fine, you don't really notice it isn't playing until ou put your ear up to the component set...
> 
> any ideas...????


anybody????


----------



## 86mr2

Kind of sounds like Imprint may be treating the rear component as a subwoofer. Do you have the amp connected properly? I assume the switch on the bottom of the 9887 is set to the 2-way position? Have to ask since people have understandable problems with the non-intuitive way the rca's work in 3-way mode.


----------



## ninogui

hi there guys

Well i´ve posted here some time ago, and in the meanwhile accomplished like 20 imprints, for diff locations, heights, with tripod, without tripod, and so on.

My setup is active, meaning no passive crossovers, with a 2 way front mlk-165 and a sub.

All i can say is imprint does not achieve proper results on an active setup. I think it is designed for either a passive setup, or for 2 front + 2 rear speakers.

In fact if you look and the imprint sound manager main screen.. that´s what it shows, isnt it.?

And in the past i got great results when i had it done on my previous 2 front + 2 rear speakers + sub, and that just corroborates my thinking.

Anyway i am happy with a proper setup for time delay / crossover settings / equalization.

Just a shame the equalization is too basic and limited, and not being able to invert phase per driver/speaker. I have to take on and shut up from the guys over here that have pioneers p88 and blaupunkts bremen mp76, stating all the time how their equalization is far superior to mine.

I still would like to find someone that achieved good results for imprint with an active 2 way front setup + sub !!

anyone.? doubt it lolol


----------



## kaigoss69

Well, I had a 3-way front set-up. Peerless SLS 6.5" midbass, Focal 4kslim 4" mids, Dyn MD100 tweeters. I highpassed the 6.5" speakers at 65 Hz at the amp. I later added some 6.5" midbasses in the rear doors (parallel to the front midbasses) and a 12" sub in the trunk (took signal from midbass and lowpassed at 80 Hz). The best results I got was when I ran just the front stage and then connected the rear door speakers and sub afterwards. Imprint adjusted the x-overs perfectly between the speakers and it was (after about 15-20 sessions) the best system I had ever heard, no joke!

So to answer your question, yes imprint works with an active set-up. I have also read in this thread where someone else was successful with an active set-up, so it has also been confirmed by someone other than me.

To check the x-over points and make sure they are set-up correct, you can isolate a speaker pair, say the tweeters, by disconnecting all other speakers except the tweeters, and then run test tones through the head unit at LOW volume. If your test tones for the high frequencies are about 500 Hz apart, you will get a pretty good idea about the x-over point. In my car, it was actually close to 5000 Hz which I thought was very high, but keep in mind the Focal mids are very capable of playing that high imprint just used them to their full potential.

I am definitely bummed about me not being able to take this wonderful system with me in my new car


----------



## Appetite

alleng said:


> I have had my W505 with xm for almost 3 months now, been working great except for the ipod touch video problem. I just got my Alpine PXA-H100 Imprint Processor and I put it in yesterday. It sounds much better even before I did the mesurement.
> 
> I did run into a major problem though. Now with the imprint hooked up I get no sound from my XM!!!
> I do see the channel information but just don't get any sound. I have the newer audiovox CMP2000UC xm adapter. With it you program it for your headunit over usb. The W505 is not listed but every other alpine radio this year is. When I originally installed it I choose W205 as the model and it worked until I hooked up the imprint. Today I have also tried the iDA-X100, CDA-9886, and IVA-D106 all with the same problem. I even took out the imprint to make sure I did not blow it during install and the xm still works.
> 
> At this point I am stumped. I have contacted Cruchfield, Alpine, and Audiovox. It seems to come down to the fact that it just doesn't work or the a new firmware is needed for the xm.
> 
> Here is the how I have it hooked up (correctly according to alpine support). The W505 out to the XM, out of the XM and into the "to HU" plug on the Imprint. I also tried it with the imprint before the xm with the same problem.
> 
> This is just making me mad. Anyone know how to fix this, if not will it work with the sirus tuner?


I had this problem with my IVA-D106 and tried everything (I thought) connectionwise to get sound from the XM. Then I swapped the two AiNet plugs on the Audiovox unit and there it was ... working XM. Long cable in my XM direct install guide shows to HU, short cable to Imprint (or other passthrough unit). WRONG! Hooked them up with short to HU and Long to Imprint and it's worked like a charm ever since. You have to use a AiNet cable with one of the cables to change gender, but I can't remember which one. 
Hope this helps and isn't too late.


----------



## X Ray

npdang said:


> If you're expecting it to do all the work for you, you'll probably be dissapointed. However, the MultEQ functionality gives you a very, very good baseline to work with and can sound fantastic with just a few minor manual adjustments.


This basically sums it up guys. 

When the IMPRINT process is done, the imaging will be MUCH better. I got goosebumps the first time I set up the H650 and heard the image placement. 

MultEQ sets a very good baseline as far as frequency response is concerned. Just tweak it a little from there and you should be happy. 

To get you in the right direction, after set up:

1) Cut the level of the tweeters. Cut until the system starts to sound dull, then bring the level back up slightly. (Passively with resistance or actively with lower gain settings on the amp)
2) Pull out some midrange. Set the mid band parametric EQ to 1.5-2K with a Q of 0.5 (wide). Cut from around 3 to 6 db. 
3) Increase the gain on the sub amp slightly.


----------



## X Ray

ninogui said:


> I still would like to find someone that achieved good results for imprint with an active 2 way front setup + sub !!
> 
> anyone.? doubt it lolol


I did.


----------



## trainman0978

86mr2 said:


> Kind of sounds like Imprint may be treating the rear component as a subwoofer. Do you have the amp connected properly? I assume the switch on the bottom of the 9887 is set to the 2-way position? Have to ask since people have understandable problems with the non-intuitive way the rca's work in 3-way mode.


Everything is wired up properly. I haven't altered anything beyond the tuning curves with one exception. I originally ran it when I bought it as a four seating position , with six mic positions . I ran it a few other times just trying to get the subs more to my liking, and trying different mic heights, and varying locations front to back within each seat. I probably ran it 10 times doing these little " experiments" . I was reading on this thread that some of you guys were getting a better soundstage and time alignment when running the curve for the front seat listening positions only. So I tried it. I also had noticed before doing the front seat position curves that I was turning up my stereo to full volume and I was not getting any distortion at all out of either set of components. So before running the imprint I turned my input voltages up ever so slightly , i mean a VERY minuscule turn , on the sundown am it doesn't take much to notice a difference. I then ran the imprint and that was when I noticed the problem. I figured that doing the front seats only , the imprint decided that to image the stereo correctly and have everything sounding tonally accurate, it cut out most of the drivers side rear component set. As I said I didn't like it. I spent alot of time deadening that panel and money purchasing that comp set so I wanted it playing. I went ahead and re-ran the imprint for the four seating position set up again. problem was still there. this is when I started to to a little testing and turned the imprint curve off, and tried it out on the deck EQ ( which I have never changed a single setting on out of the box ) and the speaker then played, but sounded very muddy, and the tweeter still produced no sound. I am gonna head out in just a few minutes and run it again, after turning down the amp back to where it originally was and see what I get , and then I will probably start making jumper wires and testing the crossover using the other one as a comparison , and then test the tweeter and the woofer as well to try and isolate the problem. I will make a couple of videos to allow you to hear the speaker and see if we can draw any conclusions from there. Maybe the imprint detected there was a problem on that channel of the amp and eliminated most of the sound , maybe ( more likely scenario ) my adjusting the input voltages pushed the set too hard and I blew the tweeter and the woofer is on the verge of going. But , having said that, The other side is getting the same power and it sounds wonderful. I just don't know. I am hoping I have suffered a crossover failure of some sort.


----------



## trainman0978

Okay so I went out there and did some testing and swapping stuff around to figure out the problem. The two videos below pretty much sum it all up. I first turned off the imprint and set the input voltage back to where I originally had it a few weeks ago. ( well I think, it seems about where I had it ) and took a moment to listen to the system, and the woofer sounded alot better on the drivers side. I think maybe I had the gain set a little too high and that particular set couldn't handle the power it was getting. with the gain backed down the woofer sounded alot better , almost as good as the other side does. you will be able to hear what I mean in the first of the two videos. With the imprint on, it just cuts the channel out almost completely. I then ( after filming the first video ) turned the imprint off, swapped out the crossovers and the drivers side crossover played both the tweeter and woofer on the passenger side just fine. So, that eliminated the crossover it self as the culprit. I then played the system at a low volume and unhooked the woofer on the driver side from the crossover, and the tweeter did not play at all. I then unhooked the tweeter from the crossover and could tell that the woofer/midrange was still doing all the work, , so I then ran a set of speaker wires from the passenger side tweeter to the crossover on the drivers side, and it played along with the drivers side woofer. Basically I think the tweeter just suffered a catastrophic failure, and blew. It find it odd though, cause the passenger side tweeter held up fine to the higher gain settings on the amp. Guess I just got a bad one from the start. Any input anyone? 

Also , this pretty much proves that if something is wrong with a driver on the channel , running in passive , that the imprint will alter the out put of the woofer in the component set , I think simply because it detects that something is wrong, and the only way for the imprint to self correct is to just tune the system with out the channel being used. The only type of sound coming out of the woofer/midrange is very low frequencies and , when faded and balanced so that only that channel is playing, sounds like crap...

on to the videos. The first one is about two minutes long, before any testing, and the second one is about six minutes long, after turning the input voltage down, and running the imprint again...

Here is the first one, photobucket is giving me a fit trying to upload the second one.


----------



## bernardo

I have good results with a 3 way

but not exelent ones...

so i want to do the ultimate guide to have a nice front stage with a 3 way...

so here are some tips that i have successfully used.

before the imprint calibration:

put the subwoofer level in 0
take out the headrests
put the gains on the full range speakers amp, a little up than ussual.
put the gains on the subwoofers amp, a little low than ussual.
make sure you dont leave your hose keys or anything it could rather inside the car.

Do calibration

after the calibration:

send the reference curve and reference with mid comp to memory 1 and 2
put the subwoofer level between 5 and 10
put the full range speakers amp, a little low (into the ussual level)
put the subwoofer amp, a little uo (in to the ussual level)

but the big problem is the location of the mic during the calibration.

i have tried 4 successfully calibration positions.

this one is the original suggested by alpine









this one is based on the Home MultEQ is on my Onkyo manual









this one is based on my needs









this one is again the mic recomendation on the Home MultEQ on my onkyo









Can we do the ultimate calibration guide???

can we all give our opinions about this little guide and about the mic positions?


----------



## ninogui

hi there bernardo,

the ultimate guide would be very nice.. maybe we could charge alpine and audyssey for it lolol in what both of the companies are missing, which is

- guide for 2 front + 2 rear
- guide for 2 front + 2 rear + sub
- guide for 2 way front + sub
- guide for 3 way front
- guide for 3 way front + sub

all of them either active or passive

one issue, the 1th position you are refering in the pics shouldn´t be the driver headrest, the one you refer to as 3th.?


----------



## bertholomey

This might be an unnecessary post due to the volume of information already in this thread, but I have had some good and bad experiences with the Imprint product. I’ll try to make this as short as possible.

I bought a 2002 BMW 325 and was looking forward to installing ‘the system’ – I debated between the factory HU, the Alpine -001, and a Nakamichi CD45z. My installer recommended the Alpine 9887 with Imprint (this was in October 07 – Imprint was pretty new at that point) – he had no direct experience with the software, but he had heard good things about it. I purchased the HU and he completed the install. 
My link on Sounddomain: (http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1397170/page/2#Post1397170)

I am running a set of components up front and a 10” sub in the trunk. I am using the active crossovers in the HU. He originally ran the Imprint software a few times, and like many on this thread – there were some things that he liked, but overall – not too happy. Quite frankly, it sounded like a boom box inside a 55 gallon drum. I used the HU w/o Imprint for awhile, and then due to curiosity, I went to another shop to see what they could do (big mistake). The installer said he was very experienced with Imprint (had it in his car). He stated that my installer did it wrong and he could fix it for $50. I dropped off the car – he ran the software while he installed an alarm in the car next to mine. When I went to pay for the ‘service’, the price was now $100. It sounded like the vocalist was sitting on the floorboard at my feet – all the voice was coming out of my left knee. To say I was angry was an understatement – especially since I had to explain to my wife that I wasted another $100 on ‘stereo stuff’. 

Well, I went without Imprint for a few months – then I borrowed the software over a weekend and ran it a few times again. It sounds considerably better than any of the previous attempts. 

Couple things I did: 
•	I used two expanding shower curtain rods that I could stretch across the vehicle and twist to ‘lock’ the rods tight – then I put the mic on a box on top of the rods (no rattle and get it at head level). I could then adjust fairly easily for up / down, side to side, and forward and back. 
•	One of the ‘runs’ – it had me place the mic in 3 – 4 locations around the front seat, but I could not reproduce that. 
•	I did all 6 mic positions – the software initially runs a diagnostic and detected that I had no rear speakers other than the sub.
•	I had sub level on the HU turned down to 0 and turned the gains on both amps down a little. 

Challenges:
•	Many people are cautious or downright negative about using the software
•	Many installers / shop owners have not had much experience / luck using it
•	Alpine has not provided any training to the Alpine certified installers (as of February – April of 08)
•	I have received very little (no) help from Alpine’s technical help.
•	Alpine has not produced a White Paper to augment the pitiful manual – they could take a lot of the experience on this thread to create a good technical bulletin. 
•	The curiosity of ‘doing it one more time’ – maybe if I run it again, it will sound just a little bit better – what if you overwrite the perfect run with a mediocre run.
•	Apparently some shops have had a great deal of success using the software, but they are certainly not sharing. 

I recently visited a shop in San Jose, CA and talked to the owner. Some of his techniques: he said they use a heavy movers blanket to cover the car to isolate as much outside noise as possible (he suggested doing it at 2 AM in the garage), he tapes the mic to the headrest pointing forward (not pointing up towards the roof like I did), for a 3 way system – I believe he said they do position 1, 3, and 6 (in the software), and I believe he said that he selects ‘3 way’ on the imprint controller box (I don’t remember seeing anything that you select on the box that the mic, etc. hooks into). He said they have done a lot of cars and have had excellent success. Of course he also said that they charge $300 to complete the ‘tuning’. On the other hand, he said that Imprint gets you about 70% there – the other 30% is door deadening ($300 per door to do it right), gain control after Imprint runs, and any processing that the customer has. 

I have changed out my amps recently, I’m changing out my subwoofer – blown, and I’m selling my JL Audio C5’s, so I’m going to ‘borrow’ the software again once I have re-installed. I am looking forward to taking some of the suggestions that previous writers have made (gain settings, mic positions, etc) and running it again. The detail and imaging in the midrange is truly amazing with the software – just some fatigue in the upper frequencies (sibilance) and lack of midbass and sub bass (compared to tuning with the graphic / parametric EQ) that needs to be overcome.


----------



## AWC

I have had excellent performance for my system. Active 3-way as well as passive 4-way. It is important to follow the steps listed in the beginning to fix the bass issues, now for staging and tonality....hmmm.. FOA, when selecting to measure "driver's side" it is doing all tuning for proper front stage. Measuring the other options won't yield "our" results. Second, all measurements frm ear level has been covered pretty well.
using a blanket for sound..it could help...I guess. Another thing to consider is the "you factor". I have leather seats so I put a blanket over the front seat to mimick me sitting there as well as removal of headrest. When the program calls for the mic to be at your right side but still in the front seat, close to your torso, not your feet, the mic should be EXACTLY where your ear normally sits. Otherwise you have to use the balance as to fix it. It is VERY important to "measure driver's seat" as the listening area.....it took me a few hangovers to figure the mic positioning out.


----------



## kaigoss69

A blanket is not going to do much for keeping noise away. I always did my sessions in my garage, door closed, at night when street noises are at a minimum. Keeping ambient noise to a minimum and correct mic positioning are the keys to getting excellent results.


----------



## AWC

kaigoss69 said:


> A blanket is not going to do much for keeping noise away. I always did my sessions in my garage, door closed, at night when street noises are at a minimum. Keeping ambient noise to a minimum and correct mic positioning are the keys to getting excellent results.


I did notice a remarkable difference in the other way I used a blanket but
in fact, it would be lovely if we could run imprint with a little more noise, say at the basic levels and frequencies of the average of all the roads we drive on a day to day basis.
I think the program is smart enough to know which noises it created for measurment. I can understand if you have several different installs going on that you would need to keep them apart but in this instance, I don't think it matters as much as we'd think. The first time I ran it, I realized that I lived in the middle of a bird snactuary. I threw gravel, cussed, I even spat once and they all stayed. Ran it again, they got even louder but my results were good, this time they were all squealing with the tormented sounds of stricnine....


----------



## AWC

I should mention my system because, right now, I'm remarkably happy with it.
I have a passive set-up so this won't work if you are straight active, if that is the case use a crossover/eq combination to achieve the same results AND stay active...or go 4-way.

Anyway, I have adenon 7-band eq with fader controls. I have the front L+R going to the denon and I can fade a little heavy to the mid-bass or to the tweets+mids. This acts as a very basis "tone control" if you are old enough to know what that means. Basically, I have immediate access to the gains to each amp in the passive system, if it were a crossover +eq you would have level control for each driver plus eq with no need for a fader.

IOW, I really like the MultiQ sound....as longs as I get to make it my own. Also, the processing for rear-fill used by Audyssey is not just rear-speakers (this is why I needed to split the source in the first place) it is a band-limited, attenuated signal that has the required 20-30 milisecond delay it takes to decorrelate the original source, to the rear-fill but it is a small enough delay that it's not reverb. Therefore, it effectively makes for a much larger sounding cabin.
No better way to say it other than it sounds larger. The tonality and imaging impoved as well but the thing that had me awestruck was how it sounded like I was in me AP room in the house.


----------



## ninogui

hi there berth,

great you share ur experiences, for me it´s never too much.

am close to give up on the imprint issue, but

one thing you stated though that got me interested specifically, which was the mic pointing direction. i´ve always pointed it towards the ceiling, as per what the manual and shared exps would lead you into, opposite to pointing it forwards. i can use a tripod so in fact can orientate it wherever.

Somehow that seems to make sense, so after the sound deadening phase i just finished (variotex siligum , check it out, no plain chant needed on the outside in, and dyn xtreme on the inside in) i´ll grab it for the weekend and check it out again.

for the rest... that guy would never get a penny from me. when in doubt, call the cops or the irs he would get a hammer in his head from any of those (or from yourself) lolol


----------



## AWC

ninogui said:


> hi there berth,
> 
> great you share ur experiences, for me it´s never too much.
> 
> am close to give up on the imprint issue, but
> 
> one thing you stated though that got me interested specifically, which was the mic pointing direction. i´ve always pointed it towards the ceiling, as per what the manual and shared exps would lead you into, opposite to pointing it forwards. i can use a tripod so in fact can orientate it wherever.
> 
> Somehow that seems to make sense, so after the sound deadening phase i just finished (variotex siligum , check it out, no plain chant needed on the outside in, and dyn xtreme on the inside in) i´ll grab it for the weekend and check it out again.
> 
> for the rest... that guy would never get a penny from me. when in doubt, call the cops or the irs he would get a hammer in his head from any of those (or from yourself) lolol


perhaps, since it is suggested the close-side positions be at ear position (I believe position 6 the diagram has it set at the driver's right pocket) if the recomendation is that it be at "the exact point of the era" it may be worthy of trying it pointing in the exact direction the ear would point, IOW at the right of the car. I believe, however, that it is uni-directional so it would only matter to a very small extent, anyway.


----------



## Twonks

I am keen to get another 9887 and Imprint module, after selling it for an upgrade to a Pioneer P90 Combo and finding I don't have the patience or ability to set it up properly... doh.

However I have lost the disc with the Imprint software on and Alpine won't send out another.

Sorry to ask this here, but is there anybody that could kindly email me the software over.

(Hope this sort of thing is allowed, and I can provide proof of ownership if required)

Thanks.


----------



## AWC

Twonks said:


> I am keen to get another 9887 and Imprint module, after selling it for an upgrade to a Pioneer P90 Combo and finding I don't have the patience or ability to set it up properly... doh.
> 
> However I have lost the disc with the Imprint software on and Alpine won't send out another.
> 
> Sorry to ask this here, but is there anybody that could kindly email me the software over.
> 
> (Hope this sort of thing is allowed, and I can provide proof of ownership if required)
> 
> Thanks.


http://www.sendspace.com/
http://www.transferbigfiles.com/

It is a pretty big file. I already have it Zipped up but you'll need to regeister with one of these sites as it is way bigger than eny e-mail will allow (around 150mb) Once that is taken care of PM me the info on the above site (e-mail you use to register) and I'll take care of it.


----------



## xlynoz

Anyone know where I can get the latest version of the sound manager. It sounds like 1.10 is old. Thanks.


----------



## AWC

xlynoz said:


> Anyone know where I can get the latest version of the sound manager. It sounds like 1.10 is old. Thanks.


Run 1.1 first. If it doesn't work then we'll work to replace it. I have 1.1 and it hasn't given me problems. The original issue was that it wouldn't support 3-way but my 1.1 does sooo....who the hell knows? Anyway, if your program works than you won't see any benefits in finding the newer version. If it locks up then we'll figure it out.


----------



## ninogui

hi there

here´s the link for download of the 1.11 version,

http://rapidshare.com/files/13495433...NT111.zip.html

(choose free user/download, but regardless it´s preety fast)

it´s about 110MB

i have noticed this version is slightly faster on the runs.


rgds


----------



## AWC

twonks did you get the software I sent???


----------



## Jopop

If anyone could post it i could host it. 100mbit server located in the NL, won't be taken down. PM me


----------



## xlynoz

aworldcollision said:


> Run 1.1 first. If it doesn't work then we'll work to replace it. I have 1.1 and it hasn't given me problems. The original issue was that it wouldn't support 3-way but my 1.1 does sooo....who the hell knows? Anyway, if your program works than you won't see any benefits in finding the newer version. If it locks up then we'll figure it out.



Well the 3-way is my biggest concern. I have seen several posts on the internet around the 3-way issue. The big problem is that I am visiting a buddy of mine that has the 9887 with the Imprint module but he has v1.1. I'm trying to avoid getting there and not having what I need. I only have a day or two at most to work with the module before I head back home so I'm trying to line up everything before I get there.


----------



## M3NTAL

The 1.11 link is down already.. dangit!


----------



## ninogui

hi guys

some mistake probably.

here´s the working link again;

http://rapidshare.com/files/134954334/IMPRINT111.zip.html

ps: for the guy worrying about versions, don´t. they behave, look and feel exactly the same, and there is no update log anywhere. As i said, only diff. i notice is slightly faster runs.


----------



## M3NTAL

Thank you ninogui!

-Cheers-


----------



## xlynoz

Thanks ninogui!


----------



## Twonks

aworldcollision said:


> twonks did you get the software I sent???


Hia. Have been away for a few days although the software hasn't appeared in my files as yet.

Cheers.


----------



## AWC

it's been sent to sendfile.com....what happened, I wonder?


----------



## Twonks

aworldcollision said:


> it's been sent to sendfile.com....what happened, I wonder?


Doh.... sorry. It is here. My spam filter on the email inbox caught the advisory email.

I have the file on download now.

Thanks very much for your help. It is appreciated.


----------



## ninogui

ya´ll welcome lol

feedback on your exps with this new version (the runtimes maybe, not anything else for sure lol)?


----------



## M3NTAL

If the weather is nice this weekend - I might re-run the sweeps with the new software and listen for changes. I am pretty happy as-is with my current setup though. Never hurts to try though I guess


----------



## ben805

Hi, I just ordered the CDA-9887 along with the KTX-100EQ and I have a few questions regarding the imprint. I'll be running only the front 2 way components DLS UP6i and a single 12" sub, the front will be feed by eD Nine.2x (200w x2) and the sub feed by a 400W mono block. 

So when I installed the 9887 HU should I set up the dip switch as 3-way (tweet, mid, sub) or the other one (front, rear, sub) even though I do not have rear speakers? 

I wanted to use the passive xover that came with the DLS components so If I use the second setting would I run into any problem with the imprint without hooking up the rear channel? 

If I were to use the first option (3 way), should I use the tweet or the mid channel?

And how well does the Imprint work with component with passive xover or am I wasting my time and money on the imprint? I'm trying to avoid going active because then I would have to buy another amp...


----------



## M3NTAL

You will run it front/rear/sub


----------



## AtticusTRD

M3NTAL said:


> You will run it front/rear/sub



I have the Imprint kit for my W505. I have focals components in my front doors in my Tacoma access cab. I have no speakers in the rear. And im running a 4channel amp to my Focals, bridged. 

Well here is what i came up with, when i would run the Front/Rear/Sub switch and run the mic setup it would pick up my front speakers twice. Once through the front channel, and again for the rear channel. 

I then tried the switch to three way and this time it would only pick up my front speakers no rears and a sub. I'm curious as to why this happens. I clearly dont have an active setup, and it sounds a lot better to me when i run 3way setup. I've been told i shouldn't be doing this.

Also what i've noticed is i get a lot of bass coming from my focals, they sound good with rock, alternative, etc. But once a rap or hip hop song comes on my focals distort like crazy. Could this be the result of running the switch in 3way?


----------



## AWC

AtticusTRD said:


> I have the Imprint kit for my W505. I have focals components in my front doors in my Tacoma access cab. I have no speakers in the rear. And im running a 4channel amp to my Focals, bridged.
> 
> Well here is what i came up with, when i would run the Front/Rear/Sub switch and run the mic setup it would pick up my front speakers twice. Once through the front channel, and again for the rear channel.
> 
> I then tried the switch to three way and this time it would only pick up my front speakers no rears and a sub. I'm curious as to why this happens. I clearly dont have an active setup, and it sounds a lot better to me when i run 3way setup. I've been told i shouldn't be doing this.
> 
> Also what i've noticed is i get a lot of bass coming from my focals, they sound good with rock, alternative, etc. But once a rap or hip hop song comes on my focals distort like crazy. Could this be the result of running the switch in 3way?



How is it bridged. Why is it bridged. I think you should open a different thread as this is not an imprint problem. Better yet, search out bridging techniques/procedures, and view the imprint thread in tutuorials. We'll get you through it but you need to help. 

First, if you are bridging just the front speakers, then only the top set of RCA'should be hooked up, barring the existence of a sub, but the middle RCA's or the rears will be empty if you are just using front speakers bridged. 

Something to stronly consider is ditching the passive crossover entirely running four channels to four speakers. Searc for active install. This will involve top and middle RCA's hooked up with the switch at three way. 

There is some stuff to get started on. Good luck.


----------



## AtticusTRD

AWC said:


> How is it bridged. Why is it bridged. I think you should open a different thread as this is not an imprint problem. Better yet, search out bridging techniques/procedures, and view the imprint thread in tutuorials. We'll get you through it but you need to help.
> 
> First, if you are bridging just the front speakers, then only the top set of RCA'should be hooked up, barring the existence of a sub, but the middle RCA's or the rears will be empty if you are just using front speakers bridged.
> 
> Something to stronly consider is ditching the passive crossover entirely running four channels to four speakers. Searc for active install. This will involve top and middle RCA's hooked up with the switch at three way.
> 
> There is some stuff to get started on. Good luck.


My focals are bridged to get more power to them. I just placed an order for a PDX150.4. I should have it in tomorrow. 

I wish i knew someone who could make my system active. But i just simply have no clue about making my system active. 

When you say the middle rcas or rears should be empty, do you mean on the PXA-H100 or on the W505?


----------



## AWC

AtticusTRD said:


> My focals are bridged to get more power to them. I just placed an order for a PDX150.4. I should have it in tomorrow.
> 
> I wish i knew someone who could make my system active. But i just simply have no clue about making my system active.
> 
> When you say the middle rcas or rears should be empty, do you mean on the PXA-H100 or on the W505?


I'm sorry man, I was thinking CDA 9887....I'm not sure why
before you do anything, make sure you are just runing the front RCA's that are going to the amplfier. You see the CDA-9887 has the 3-way active as is from factory on the back of the deck. I think the 505 requires the 100...but you should know that. It's YOUR deck. What does the manual say? Give us all the details. Seriously. ALL of the details or we'll just be asking more and more questions.

What 4-channel are you using now? Going active isn't that hard it just requires some reading. The PXA-H100 does most of the work for you, I thought.


----------



## AtticusTRD

AWC said:


> I'm sorry man, I was thinking CDA 9887....I'm not sure why
> before you do anything, make sure you are just runing the front RCA's that are going to the amplfier. You see the CDA-9887 has the 3-way active as is from factory on the back of the deck. I think the 505 requires the 100...but you should know that. It's YOUR deck. What does the manual say? Give us all the details. Seriously. ALL of the details or we'll just be asking more and more questions.
> 
> What 4-channel are you using now? Going active isn't that hard it just requires some reading. The PXA-H100 does most of the work for you, I thought.



Im using a Kicker KX350.4, i had trouble with the rca's getting stereo out of it. But i managed to do it. But like i said when i run the switch on the PXA-H100 to Front/rear/Sub the Imprint manager recognizes the front channel as front and rear. Im guessing its something to do with the RCA's. Now that ill be getting the Alpine 150.4 i wont have the amp bridged, so i'm hoping the imprint can recognized the different channels. When i ran the imprint as 3way the sound quality is really good, still lacking some midbass, but there's a lot of low end coming from my front speakers.  Is that normal?


----------



## AWC

AtticusTRD said:


> Im using a Kicker KX350.4, i had trouble with the rca's getting stereo out of it. But i managed to do it. But like i said when i run the switch on the PXA-H100 to Front/rear/Sub the Imprint manager recognizes the front channel as front and rear. Im guessing its something to do with the RCA's. Now that ill be getting the Alpine 150.4 i wont have the amp bridged, so i'm hoping the imprint can recognized the different channels. When i ran the imprint as 3way the sound quality is really good, still lacking some midbass, but there's a lot of low end coming from my front speakers.  Is that normal?


Really, we'll need more information. EXACTLY how do you have them bridged right now? Front channels ran via a Y splitter? One RCA per 2 channels? I don't have a descriptive picture in my head that I can help you with. You are also posting in a CDA-9887 thread...which is the deck I run. I should be able to help but you should start a new thread with ALL your system details. Sub woofer details to include amp and sub, passive/active, 2-way, 3-way 18-way active? Just give me enough to go on. 

No matter what, the imprint manager is going to look for the rear speakers, not the 3-way we had all hoped for. It will check each of the 6 channels individually whether on 3-way or F+R+S. It's kinda gay but there it is. It doesn't mean it isn't working.


----------



## AtticusTRD

AWC said:


> Really, we'll need more information. EXACTLY how do you have them bridged right now? Front channels ran via a Y splitter? One RCA per 2 channels? I don't have a descriptive picture in my head that I can help you with. You are also posting in a CDA-9887 thread...which is the deck I run. I should be able to help but you should start a new thread with ALL your system details. Sub woofer details to include amp and sub, passive/active, 2-way, 3-way 18-way active? Just give me enough to go on.
> 
> No matter what, the imprint manager is going to look for the rear speakers, not the 3-way we had all hoped for. It will check each of the 6 channels individually whether on 3-way or F+R+S. It's kinda gay but there it is. It doesn't mean it isn't working.


This is the only long thread i found with Imprint help. Sorry if im posting in the wrong thread. I really dont have issues with the software. Just wondering why theres to much bass coming from my fronts. The software works great, it improved my sound stage a lot. Very pleased with it.


----------



## ben805

I'd finally got everything installed and ran the Imprint, it completely eliminated my subwoofer so it seems, while it does a good job in bringing up the sound stage and improve slightly in imaging, but it also took away some serious punch in the mid to lower range, other than the small improvement I was not impressed at all, ran the measurement about 5 times and play with the mic placement but with similar result, I also tried to disconnect the sub RCA completely and leave them out, only ran the imprint on front components...still no dice. I did a bit more reading and decided to set the gain on sub amp at 1/2 level (12 o'clock) instead of 1/4, leave x'over all the way up to the highest setting and rerun the imprint again, after the measurement is done I went and crank up the sub gain from 1/2 to 3/4, and up the bass boost by about 3dB, lower the x'over back down to 80hz....this time around I'm getting somewhere, the bass and impact is back. I guess I'll just have to be more patient and keep playing with this thing to see if there's anything else to improve, I think I'm going to keep the imprint unit. 

Here is my final runs:





























Setup in 2009 Camry V6 LE:
HU: Alpine CDA-9887 + KTX-100EQ
DLS UP6i Front components with passive x'over network
eD Nine.2x (200w x2)
Single 12" eD 13Ov.2 in sealed enclosure
Alpine M450 Monoblock (400w x1)


----------



## 86mr2

Ben, 

Welcome to the wacky world of imprint tuning. The last two runs I have made have yeilded amazing results. I have finally gone two way active + sub and giving Imprint control of the tweeter level and phase seems to have done great things.

I set the input sensitivity on my Alpine sub amp to the lowest (-18dB) before running, then set it to the highest after (0dB). I also remove the headrests.

On this most recent run I wanted to see if it could deal with the fact my leg is in the way of the driver's side tweeter. I put a pair of jeans over some rolled up towels and propped the resulting "leg" in my normal seating position. The results are incredible, the soundstage is higher, centered, and the off-axis tweeters have got some very reasonable air and shimmer. I really did not think this trick would work as well as it did.

I'm a fan!


----------



## ben805

I am using a dinosaur laptop and it worked like a charm LOL a POS Compaq with PII 350mhz CPU and only 64MB of ram and 4GB HDD with Windows 2000 SP4, no problem with the Imprint software (v 1.11). I only ran the Front Left measurement and didn't bother with passenger and backseat, from start to finish only took about 15min. 

One thing I notice about this Imprint thing is that the sub gain need to be set high enough for the mic to pick up the sweeping test, whenever I set the gain down to 1/4 the imprint seems to eliminate the sub at the end, setting it half way work best for me, then crank it up more when done. Another thing I notice is that the further I place the mic off center(toward the left door), the more passenger bias imaging result I get, best placement I found in my car is let the MIC sit on top of where the headrest suppose to be, and move it slightly to the right toward the center (above my right shoulder), that yield the best imaging in my car.

I'm going to save up and get another amp to run active soon, according to DLS my tweeters (UP1i) x'over point on the passive network is at 5Khz, but I think it's safe to run them at around 2Khz, that probably would smooth out the big dip at 2Khz on the graph, and let the Imprint take care of the sound stage afterward.


----------



## 86mr2

When you go active you need to protect the tweeter from the Imprint "chirp". The tweeter and midrange chirp happen together, and one other poster has said the tweeter chirp is full range. Most suggest putting a cap in series with the tweeter. I have the highpass on my tweeter amp set at [email protected]

I tend to run five or six positions when making an Imprint run. I should probably do like you and make more 1 position runs to try out different mic positions.

My last run had a problem with jets from the local airport flying overhead during the measurements. Normally this does not occur, but the wind was obviously from the wrong direction. As a consequence, bass has suffered. 

I was watching the RTA while one of the jets was rather distant, and I was amazed at how much low frequency energy made it into the car.


----------



## xlynoz

I'm actually going through my 7th run right now. So far I have had only one decent run that sounded good and had good staging. I'm not sure If I was just expecting too much but to be honest I don't think the SQ is anything to scream about. If I couldn't adjust the mids and tweets after Imprint was done (I have a 3-way setup) it would sound crappy to me. I've done a better job on SQ with just the 9887 and an RTA. Now I will say the staging is better than I usually can come up with but its not perfect. I'm going to keep playing around with it and hope to get something that I will like for both SQ and staging. If not I'll send it back and get a 701 .


----------



## xlynoz

Well it looks like this is the best run yet. The funny thing is that I prefer the linear curve as opposed to the reference. Most everyone else says they hate the linear curve. I think having the Focal TN 47 tweeters that this brings down the brightness while not giving me the dip in the upper mid range like the two reference curves did. 

Also one thing I did different was to do only 3 positions (all in the driver seat). I did this on my first run and up until now that was the best run. All the other runs I did all 6 positions (in the driver seat) and I didn't really like how those came out. I also put the mic about 4 inches higher than my previous runs.

I'll put a couple of days on these two curves and see what I think.

One thing that really sucks is the system noise that the Imprint mode adds. I've seen others make comments about it but I'm wondering if it is across the board or just hit or miss. Any comments?


----------



## 86mr2

I have not noticed any system noise at all.


----------



## ben805

I ran the Imprint again today, this time around I cranked up the component amp to half way instead of 1/4, maxed out the subwoofer level on HU at 15, set the sub gain at a little over half way (1 o'clock) and turn off the bass boost, place the mic in the same location (above right shoulder), now I'm getting a much smoother and linear curve, all three (Reference, Reference with mid, and Linear) curves looks very similar. I think the Imprint is able to do the measurement more precisely with higher gain I set for the front and sub. Imaging is not dead center on the dash anymore and it spread more evenly around and infront of me, no more isolated and directed sound, music is enveloping as if there were rear fill (which I don't have). Vocal came directly from about 4 to 5ft infront of me, extended slightly beyond the windshield, and the sound stage is at eye level which I think is great. After the measurement is done I backed off the component amp gain down to where it should be at 1/4 (9 o'clock) and leave the sub amp gain as is with bass boost off. The sub blend seamlessly to the front now, and mid to lower end impact is back but not overwhelming, I think overall it balance very well. So all in all here is what I learned so far:

1)front stage amp(s) gain probably needed to be set slightly higher than normal for Imprint to measure accurately, back it down afterward.
2)leaving the subwoofer level at 15 max on HU did not take away anything as long as the sub amp gain is set to atleast 1/2 way before running imprint. The lower the gain i had set, the less bass imprint gave me afterward (maxing out the sub gain after the measurement is done did not help if I were to set the sub gain too low at 1/4 for the measurement)
3)Bass boost skew with the curve, best to turn them off. 
4)Using a powerful PC did not speed up the measurement process, I tried my heavily overclocked and water-cooled Dual core Opteron PC with 2GB of ram, RAID 0 HDD setup and it took just as long as my piece of crap 12yr old laptop...15min from start to finish doing the front left measurement only. Though my powerhouse PC load up the Imprint software much faster, that's pretty much it. Uploading the curves to HU took the same amount of time.
5)For my car, setting the MIC closer to the center (above right shoulder sitting on where the headrest was) yield the best imaging and sound stage, no more localized imaging in the dead center of the dash anymore.
6)I'm not running any rear fill, I wish the Imprint software allow me to turn off the rear speaker measurement, it wasted about 7 minutes trying to measure absolutely nothing, the whole process could have been done in about 8 minutes for the front left only. lol
7)I wish the software would save the measurement so we could roll back to whichever curve we like most. 

Next time around maybe I'll try to sit in the car to run the Imprint again and see how it turns out. I didn't bother to run the passenger or back seat position measurement test at all, that save me a lot of time, front left position only takes about 15min, it isn't going to strain my car battery or laptop battery. An attempt to optimize every seat in the car probably mean something is being compromised, I could really careless about how other seating position gonna sound, this is my daily commuter car so it is being optimize for driver seat only  When my wife ride with me or have my kids in the back seat, they could careless how my stereo system sound LOL So far the Imprint is doing an amazing job in tuning, the KTX-100EQ probably applied a HELL LOT MORE EQ'ing than what the HU's 7-band equalizer can provide, I have tried to play with the TA and tune it manually with either 7 band or 5 band EQ...it just doesn't sound the same, the 4 steps frequency selection is killer  Now that I have use the Imprint, personally I would never ever run the 9887 without the MultiEQ enable, it took many runs to get it right (almost sell it on ebay out of frustration) but so far I'm very impressed with the result, overall I'm glad that I bought it...well worth the investment!


----------



## xlynoz

I notice that when you crank the treble and bass up on the H/U it sounds like it compensates and lowers the volume of the tweets (running 3-way). It's almost like an auto adjusting loudness control. Anyone notice this? Heck first the system noise and now this, what the hell .


----------



## ben805

86mr2 said:


> I have not noticed any system noise at all.


Me neither, no system noise whatsoever.

I did a little research and found someone else from Crutchfield reported the noise thing:

"great sound
Written By Paul, Fredericksburg, VA on Friday, February 08, 2008

Great Product. Couldn't believe the sound. The only reason this product gets 4 stars is:
Slight hiss in between tracks that sometimes seems evident during songs.
Can only choose 2 eq curves.
Bass is much quieter. Depends on music.
If you can handle these things, buy this product. It sounds much better than anything else that cost much more. I really enjoy listening to the music. Music is clear with volume all the way up. "


Not sure what the deal is, I haven't notice any hiss or anything like that even when i crank up the volume to really loud at 25~28. 

I think I read somewhere in the 9887 manual that if you're playing music CD, there is an option somewhere to select CD-DA playback only, or you can try to switch it to CDDA/WMA/MP3 option and see if it help.


----------



## 86mr2

xlynoz said:


> I notice that when you crank the treble and bass up on the H/U it sounds like it compensates and lowers the volume of the tweets (running 3-way). It's almost like an auto adjusting loudness control. Anyone notice this?


I have not really noticed myself, but I thought I read in another thread that boosting bass or treble can reduce the rest of the spectrum to prevent the line out clipping. Might have that wrong tho.


----------



## AtticusTRD

Not sure if this has been asked but whats the difference between Reference and Reference With Midrange Comp.


----------



## xlynoz

ben805 said:


> Me neither, no system noise whatsoever.
> 
> I did a little research and found someone else from Crutchfield reported the noise thing:
> 
> "great sound
> Written By Paul, Fredericksburg, VA on Friday, February 08, 2008
> 
> Great Product. Couldn't believe the sound. The only reason this product gets 4 stars is:
> Slight hiss in between tracks that sometimes seems evident during songs.
> Can only choose 2 eq curves.
> Bass is much quieter. Depends on music.
> If you can handle these things, buy this product. It sounds much better than anything else that cost much more. I really enjoy listening to the music. Music is clear with volume all the way up. "
> 
> 
> Not sure what the deal is, I haven't notice any hiss or anything like that even when i crank up the volume to really loud at 25~28.
> 
> I think I read somewhere in the 9887 manual that if you're playing music CD, there is an option somewhere to select CD-DA playback only, or you can try to switch it to CDDA/WMA/MP3 option and see if it help.


Thanks, I forgot all about that setting. I will have to change it and see if it makes a difference. I will also have to check and see if the noise is present with the iPOD as well.


----------



## xlynoz

I have another question. Has anyone tried to send the two curves to the H/U, disconnect the cable and leave the program running, play the H/U and then reconnect the cable and send the 3rd curve that wasn't sent the first time? I hate that I can't A/B/C test all three but even worst to have to re-run the test to but the 3rd curve in memory.


----------



## 86mr2

I saw a description of midrange comp, but can't remember. You can try searching, but it seems to me it is a cut centered around 1khz. It can help with some very midrangy sources like most punk/underground albums. 

The Crutchfield forums have some helpfull posts about tuning with Imprint written by an Alpine Trainer.


----------



## ZoNtO

Thought I'd post the links since I finally got down to searching for these mystical Crutchfield Alpine Trainer links:

Thread: http://community.crutchfield.com/forums/thread/32684.aspx

Great tutorial post: http://community.crutchfield.com/forums/post/32684.aspx

and a quote about curves on page 2 of that thread:



Good tips...this is the reason why I bought the tuning kit so that I could 'play' around with it.

Here is something I recieved from Chris @ Audessy:

"The target curves we use come from our research over the past few years at USC where we have a lab that focuses on understanding what the right curve is for different environments. 

So, Audyssey Reference is flat out to 10 kHz and then has a slight roll-off out to 20 kHz. This is a standard curve used in home theater setups, but also in many of the cars that we have tuned.
Midrange compensation is a dip that is introduced in the 2 kHz region to make up for the drastic differences in directivity between the tweeter and the midrange driver. Many times the summation between these two drivers has problems and this intended to address those. I suggest that you start with it engaged.

Audyssey Flat is just that: flat from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. In most cases this will be too bright, but some people prefer that so we provide it. 

My recommendation is to start with Audyssey Reference and Midrange Compensation.

The mic locations for the Driver seat should be in a small area that is about the size of the head. The exact positioning is not critical. The first measurement should be at the center of the head and then I would move 3" to the left and right of that and one more about 3" in front."


----------



## ben805

xlynoz said:


> Thanks, I forgot all about that setting. I will have to change it and see if it makes a difference. I will also have to check and see if the noise is present with the iPOD as well.


Let us know if that setting do anything, if I remember correctly the 9887 manual did mention something about trying out either of those playback mode if noise is present when playing certain recording.




xlynoz said:


> I have another question. Has anyone tried to send the two curves to the H/U, disconnect the cable and leave the program running, play the H/U and then reconnect the cable and send the 3rd curve that wasn't sent the first time? I hate that I can't A/B/C test all three but even worst to have to re-run the test to but the 3rd curve in memory.


I think I tried it the first time and got an error, one thing I know for certain is that whenever i disconnected the HU cable to try out the new curves, the Imprint software would not do further measurement again after I reconnected the cable back into the HU, I had to close it out and reopen the imprint software for it to detect the interface again.


----------



## bkoepp2

This was also posted in the same thread, has anyone tried this? I didn't sift through all 40+pages of this so sorry if it's already posted:

"I may got the solution on the problem with very low bass.

Before measuring I adjusted the EQ to -7 in band 1 and 2.

I believe that the Imprint KTX-100EQ uses these sound adjustments when it figure out the perfect sound 

Adjust bass as low as you can in every settings..

Use Imprint... transfer the settings...

Now the sound is mutch better...

reset the low bass values setting after you have done the Imprint

This is a bug I believe, but a usefull one... the sound in my car before was awfull..



Stein Riise

Norway

CDA-9887, Focal 6.5" x 4, no Subwoofer Mercedes E240 W210"


----------



## ben805

ZoNtO said:


> Thought I'd post the links since I finally got down to searching for these mystical Crutchfield Alpine Trainer links:
> 
> Thread: http://community.crutchfield.com/forums/thread/32684.aspx
> 
> Great tutorial post: http://community.crutchfield.com/forums/post/32684.aspx



Thanks for the link, i ran the Imprint again with 5 positions as suggested by the Alpine tech instead of only 1 position, but the same way I set the gain on both comp and sub amps as before, I thought the imaging and sound stage were already pretty good, but now they are even more define and solid, with no loss in mid to low end impact. Before, when I lean my head slightly to the left or right while driving...imaging tend to break apart and shift a little, now they're rock solid, the new run with 5 positions also smooth out the curves much better than previous measurements, I'm impressed!!




























I loaded Reference and Reference with Mid to the HU, the latter is slightly warmer and laid back, sound stage appear to be deeper and about an inch or two lower, I prefer the latter for very strong vocal recording (ie: Celine Dion stuff), otherwise I use the Reference for everything else. It's a night and day difference with and without the MultiEQ. I have not notice any sibilance from tweeters like someone else experience, DLS stuff are pretty laid back and smooth so I left the tweeter jumper to the highest level in the passive x'over network. I'm really digging this Imprint unit


----------



## 86mr2

I find that when you get it right, it is really amazing. I have done it enough that it is repeatable within the limits of external noise interfereing.


----------



## ZoNtO

I'm thinking I should calibrate again and load the linear and the reference with mid range comp. 

Right now the reference destroys my ears with Infinity components and so I've left it on linear and gotten quite accustomed to it.

Oh and the sound stage seeming lower cuz of the mid range comp is perfectly normal, 2khz is a standard norm for stage height adjustment when manually EQ'ing too!


----------



## M3NTAL

Yes, I believe the regular reference is what I use in my car - it has a different bass presentation and puts the soundstage up higher.


----------



## ben805

ZoNtO said:


> I'm thinking I should calibrate again and load the linear and the reference with mid range comp.
> 
> Right now the reference destroys my ears with Infinity components and so I've left it on linear and gotten quite accustomed to it.
> 
> Oh and the sound stage seeming lower cuz of the mid range comp is perfectly normal, 2khz is a standard norm for stage height adjustment when manually EQ'ing too!


crank up your component amp gain higher than normal, rerun the test and let Imprint smooth out the top end for you, then turn the gain back down to where you wanted it afterward. or you can attenuate the tweeters from x'over network no?


----------



## Vash

ZoNtO said:


> I'm thinking I should calibrate again and load the linear and the reference with mid range comp.
> 
> Right now the reference destroys my ears with Infinity components and so I've left it on linear and gotten quite accustomed to it.
> 
> Oh and the sound stage seeming lower cuz of the mid range comp is perfectly normal, 2khz is a standard norm for stage height adjustment when manually EQ'ing too!


How does EQ'ing 2khz adjust the stage height?? I am really interested in this as I really want to raise my stage. Thanks!


----------



## ZoNtO

Boosting it raises the height, cutting it lowers it....


----------



## ZoNtO

ben805 said:


> crank up your component amp gain higher than normal, rerun the test and let Imprint smooth out the top end for you, then turn the gain back down to where you wanted it afterward. or you can attenuate the tweeters from x'over network no?


The tweeters are straining, I think they are just crossed over too low or blew a little bit from being run off HU power by the previous owner. I don't care, I'm getting rid of them this spring and never using Infinity speaks again....


----------



## 1hawaii50

bkoepp2 said:


> This was also posted in the same thread, has anyone tried this? I didn't sift through all 40+pages of this so sorry if it's already posted:
> 
> "I may got the solution on the problem with very low bass.
> 
> Before measuring I adjusted the EQ to -7 in band 1 and 2.
> 
> I believe that the Imprint KTX-100EQ uses these sound adjustments when it figure out the perfect sound
> 
> Adjust bass as low as you can in every settings..
> 
> Use Imprint... transfer the settings...
> 
> Now the sound is mutch better...
> 
> reset the low bass values setting after you have done the Imprint
> 
> This is a bug I believe, but a usefull one... the sound in my car before was awfull..
> 
> 
> 
> Stein Riise
> 
> Norway
> 
> CDA-9887, Focal 6.5" x 4, no Subwoofer Mercedes E240 W210"


That is how I've set mine prior to my last couple of runs. I've noticed that it does, indeed improve bass response, but it is still nowhere near the bass that I guess we are just accustomed to hearing. I read in another thread where someone says to adjust your bass settings all the way up where they normally would be before running Imprint...this goes against all the other advice I've read, so I guess the answer is that we each have to find out exactly what works for our setups.


----------



## AtticusTRD

Are you guys making any adjustment to your amps settings? Before running imprint?


----------



## 1hawaii50

AtticusTRD said:


> Are you guys making any adjustment to your amps settings? Before running imprint?


I actually set my amps crossovers before the run that I'm currently using. I think it sounds better than it did with having the full signals passing through the amp.


----------



## xlynoz

Has anyone run into this issue.

After doing the Imprint, I turned off the MultiEQ, adjusted my T/A, PEQ and crossovers so I could have "3 curves" at my disposal. However when I enabled the MultiEQ the T/A was off, way off. Just to make sure I wasn't making up the whole thing, I did another Imprint run and sure enough the staging was high and cetnered just like before I manually made changes. WTF is that crap . Now I could understand if changed the gains or crossovers on the amps but all I did was change the H/U settings.


----------



## SPD TRP

Wow, this is a long thread.

Reading it made my limited knowledge painfully clear.

As you can see, I am new here, but have always had Alpines.

Currently the CDA-9887 which I think is a great deck
, with the one before this one a CDA-7969.

I must say the 9887 is feature laden, more so than the 7969. I am glad I stumbled here, and I am not the only one with questions about "tuning" this HU.

I have a pair of Focal K2 Power 165 KF's up front with no sub yet and a PPI 2150 driving them. This is in a supra with a targa, haven't worked out a sub yet that will allow the top to be stored in the hatch area. A rear seat delete is about the only viable solution.

Well anyway, I am a little foggy on the 2.2 and 4.2 set ups.
I am looking at getting the PDX4.150 and running that to me seperates. But need a little explanation on the difference between 2.2 and 4.2.

Is it possible to run rear fill with another 2 channel amp and still have the use of the active crossover? Would that be 4.2?

Well that is all for now. If anyone has a great sub idea, let me know.

Thanks

Wayne


----------



## quality_sound

Vash said:


> How does EQ'ing 2khz adjust the stage height?? I am really interested in this as I really want to raise my stage. Thanks!





ZoNtO said:


> Boosting it raises the height, cutting it lowers it....


Hmm, I've always boosted or cut around 500Hz to raise and lower the stage height.


----------



## AWC

xlynoz said:


> Has anyone run into this issue.
> 
> After doing the Imprint, I turned off the MultiEQ, adjusted my T/A, PEQ and crossovers so I could have "3 curves" at my disposal. However when I enabled the MultiEQ the T/A was off, way off. Just to make sure I wasn't making up the whole thing, I did another Imprint run and sure enough the staging was high and cetnered just like before I manually made changes. WTF is that crap . Now I could understand if changed the gains or crossovers on the amps but all I did was change the H/U settings.


some of the values input into your deck will be 'respected' by the program. IOW, set it up the way you want it first, then run imprint. Imprint will keep the setting you put in...to a point.


----------



## matt62485

i ran it, had my gains set low, so low to the point once that i had to bump it up on the mids so the mic would be pic of sound. when imprint was done, i went back and level matched my gains. overall results sucked imho. i ran it 6 times with no better results in any, the stage is low and to the right, i dont understand wtf, but im not worried with it bc i used the equipment for free. however, i wasnt impressed, and i did it to the instructions to a tee. to get any decent volume my gains are set uncomfortably high. im a nooB and i got the sound up and somewhat centered oppossed to the imprint adjustments, maybe it was user error, but i did everything to my knowledge as stated


----------



## AWC

did you maintain microphone heigth? IOW, was the mic set to the exact height as your ears? Furthermore, the #6 position should be tried at the right ear position as well as the position labeled..


----------



## matt62485

AWC said:


> did you maintain microphone heigth? IOW, was the mic set to the exact height as your ears? Furthermore, the #6 position should be tried at the right ear position as well as the position labeled..


right, i kept the mic up, like ear postion, even tried it a lil higher. used a wire hanger and attached it, bent it to postion. ear height in all 6 postions. tried the #6 postion exactly to the right of the left "ear postion", moved it a little more left to see if it would bring the stage over, and nothing. i dunno, im just going to play with it all my self, no need on the imprint, id rather learn my own anyways


----------



## AWC

matt62485 said:


> right, i kept the mic up, like ear postion, even tried it a lil higher. used a wire hanger and attached it, bent it to postion. ear height in all 6 postions. tried the #6 postion exactly to the right of the left "ear postion", moved it a little more left to see if it would bring the stage over, and nothing. i dunno, im just going to play with it all my self, no need on the imprint, id rather learn my own anyways


hate to break it to you, but I think you've been branded a sinner. God likes Imprint. Since it isn't working for you, you must be a dirty sinner. Sorry.


----------



## matt62485

AWC said:


> hate to break it to you, but I think you've been branded a sinner. God likes Imprint. Since it isn't working for you, you must be a dirty sinner. Sorry.


shiat, time to repent to the imprint gods. 

seriously, the first run on "ALL" positions sounded pretty good, but obviously the stage wasnt quite right for a "one" listener car, i didnt care for it too much, but it came out better than the driver seat setting. oh well, no biggie.


----------



## AWC

matt62485 said:


> shiat, time to repent to the imprint gods.
> 
> seriously, the first run on "ALL" positions sounded pretty good, but obviously the stage wasnt quite right for a "one" listener car, i didnt care for it too much, but it came out better than the driver seat setting. oh well, no biggie.


my driver's seat measurement is great. did you try the front seat option?


----------



## matt62485

AWC said:


> my driver's seat measurement is great. did you try the front seat option?


yea, the first run was on ALL, and the rest were driver front seat


----------



## AWC

isn't there a front seat as well as driver's? I could be wrong.


----------



## ben805

matt62485 said:


> i ran it, had my gains set low, so low to the point once that i had to bump it up on the mids so the mic would be pic of sound.


that's your problem right there. when you set the gains way too low to the point where the MIC is struggling to pick up the reading, it sure as hell won't be able to do the measurement accurately.

Unless you're running a 1000w amp on speakers rated at 50w, otherwise don't be afraid to bump up the gain! set all your gains half way and rerun 5 positions again for the front left seat. Even with the windows up and door closed, if you stand within 1ft away from the front door and if you cannot hear the 8 chirps sweeping tone from outside of the car during the measurement test, then you ain't have the gain set high enough for measurement! 

Read the tips provided by Alpine tech again and follow the mic placement as suggested, 5 positions is all you need:

Great tutorial post: http://community.crutchfield.com/forums/post/32684.aspx


----------



## matt62485

ben805 said:


> that's your problem right there. when you set the gains way too low to the point where the MIC is struggling to pick up the reading, it sure as hell won't be able to do the measurement accurately.
> 
> Unless you're running a 1000w amp on speakers rated at 50w, otherwise don't be afraid to bump up the gain! set all your gains half way and rerun 5 positions again for the front left seat. Even with the windows up and door closed, if you stand within 1ft away from the front door and if you cannot hear the 8 chirps sweeping tone from outside of the car during the measurement test, then you ain't have the gain set high enough for measurement!
> 
> Read the tips provided by Alpine tech again and follow the mic placement as suggested, 5 positions is all you need:
> 
> Great tutorial post: http://community.crutchfield.com/forums/post/32684.aspx


i never heard a sweep, which was very strange, i heard each speaker chirp or "burp" as u might say individually, but no sweeping sound as one would hear in an HT auto setup

i had em set where i could hear the chirps/burps from 20 feet away, once i reset them. i called alpine, tech told me not to set gains past 1/4. no sense in setting gains 1/2 ways, thats no where near level matches at all. he said do em low, then bump em up. if the mic need that much sound, something is wrong, id thing is would be more senstive, i have my doors pretty well deadened and could hear outside the car 20 ft away, the freq it puts out was very noticable, but its very quite at my parents house out in the country area. i did it 6 times, several times with the gains low as tech suggested, several times with gains set that when multEQ is off, the loudness is unbearable to my own settings at 25, but with multEQ on @ 35 wasnt loud enough imho. i dunno wtf, im over it, i got it set pretty well by ear, maybe ill play with imprint another day/time


----------



## najimasri

Hello,

Wow, this topic contains many useful information. I have spent almost the complete day to consolidate the input of each participant. I have to confess that I am a novice in the car audio area. Nevertheless, I would need some advises to finally enjoy the full power of my Alpline CDA-9887 device.

More than a year ago, I have received my new Car. Pretty good new, isn't. Well, the car is nice but not delivered with the expected embedded navigation system. To compensate, the Audi garage has equipped my car with many extra options, including a wonderful CDA-9887. Nice, isn't but the story is not yet finished. Since they are only dealer of Audi, they can't afford to buy/train the technician on the Imprint system of Alpine. So, during a year, I have investigate to find a alpine car audio dealer that was skilled to both tune my device and run the Imprint setup ... Belgium is a small country and I realized after one year that none of those Car audio shops were ready to invest in the KTZ-100EQ !

Last week, I found by accident a small shop near Liege that was advertising the Imprint/Alpine device . They were ready to have a look to my car and run the Imprint setup. The team is very kind and professional (ASC AutoSystem). It was their second Imprint setup for the last 1.5 years !!!! When my car was ready, I was happy but also disappointed... For this reason, I would need your help. 

Before describing the impression, I need to mention that it is a company car (Audi A4 Avant) equipped with the standard speaker setup (2 splitted front and rear speakers without any subwoofer). Due to the leasing car policy, I can not modify/add any new device/speaker... but it fine for me like that.

With the Imprint setup, the sound is crisp, the stereo image is incredible and I could recognize some instruments that we usually can't hear in a car setup (Jazz, Classic and pop). The system portrays a musical performance exactly as it was recorded, with zero colouration except for the bass and the deep bass! I have pretty much no bass/hyperbass frequency anymore compare to the non-MultiEQ! The bass frequencies is damped even when I tune the bass level from the corresponding menu. Can you help me to sort out this issue or to give my advices? The shop doesn't know neither how to correct this. They did a first setup with the antenna in the middle position of the 2 front seats.

Is the imprint setup expecting a subwoofer? Is there any option to specify that it is a 4 speaker car setup? Shall I reset any parameter on the device before running the software? Thank you the time that you might spend to read my post.


----------



## ben805

matt62485 said:


> i never heard a sweep, which was very strange, i heard each speaker chirp or "burp" as u might say individually, but no sweeping sound as one would hear in an HT auto setup
> 
> i had em set where i could hear the chirps/burps from 20 feet away, once i reset them. i called alpine, tech told me not to set gains past 1/4. no sense in setting gains 1/2 ways, thats no where near level matches at all. he said do em low, then bump em up. if the mic need that much sound, something is wrong, id thing is would be more senstive, i have my doors pretty well deadened and could hear outside the car 20 ft away, the freq it puts out was very noticable, but its very quite at my parents house out in the country area. i did it 6 times, several times with the gains low as tech suggested, several times with gains set that when multEQ is off, the loudness is unbearable to my own settings at 25, but with multEQ on @ 35 wasnt loud enough imho. i dunno wtf, im over it, i got it set pretty well by ear, maybe ill play with imprint another day/time



Whenever you have a chance to rerun imprint, just give it a try to set your gain half way, if this is much higher than what you normally would set (say at 1/4) then dial it back down AFTER the tuning is done. If you read the Imprint instruction manual, it also suggested to set your gain to half way for measurement. But if like you said you can hear the chirp from 20ft away during the measurement, then the MIC should be able to pick up the tone and do the calculation accordingly, if that's the case then play with the mic placement as suggested by Alpine tech (see link i gave you previously).


----------



## ben805

najimasri said:


> Hello,
> 
> Wow, this topic contains many useful information. I have spent almost the complete day to consolidate the input of each participant. I have to confess that I am a novice in the car audio area. Nevertheless, I would need some advises to finally enjoy the full power of my Alpline CDA-9887 device.
> 
> More than a year ago, I have received my new Car. Pretty good new, isn't. Well, the car is nice but not delivered with the expected embedded navigation system. To compensate, the Audi garage has equipped my car with many extra options, including a wonderful CDA-9887. Nice, isn't but the story is not yet finished. Since they are only dealer of Audi, they can't afford to buy/train the technician on the Imprint system of Alpine. So, during a year, I have investigate to find a alpine car audio dealer that was skilled to both tune my device and run the Imprint setup ... Belgium is a small country and I realized after one year that none of those Car audio shops were ready to invest in the KTZ-100EQ !
> 
> Last week, I found by accident a small shop near Liege that was advertising the Imprint/Alpine device . They were ready to have a look to my car and run the Imprint setup. The team is very kind and professional (ASC AutoSystem). It was their second Imprint setup for the last 1.5 years !!!! When my car was ready, I was happy but also disappointed... For this reason, I would need your help.
> 
> Before describing the impression, I need to mention that it is a company car (Audi A4 Avant) equipped with the standard speaker setup (2 splitted front and rear speakers without any subwoofer). Due to the leasing car policy, I can not modify/add any new device/speaker... but it fine for me like that.
> 
> With the Imprint setup, the sound is crisp, the stereo image is incredible and I could recognize some instruments that we usually can't hear in a car setup (Jazz, Classic and pop). The system portrays a musical performance exactly as it was recorded, with zero colouration except for the bass and the deep bass! I have pretty much no bass/hyperbass frequency anymore compare to the non-MultiEQ! The bass frequencies is damped even when I tune the bass level from the corresponding menu. Can you help me to sort out this issue or to give my advices? The shop doesn't know neither how to correct this. They did a first setup with the antenna in the middle position of the 2 front seats.
> 
> Is the imprint setup expecting a subwoofer? Is there any option to specify that it is a 4 speaker car setup? Shall I reset any parameter on the device before running the software? Thank you the time that you might spend to read my post.


for the lack of bass output problem, there are a couple way to trick the imprint to get the bass impact back, answer to your question is right under your nose as they have been discuss on this thread many times, read them posts yo!


----------



## Ztein

najimasri said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have pretty much no bass/hyperbass frequency anymore compare to the non-MultiEQ! The bass frequencies is damped even when I tune the bass level from the corresponding menu. Can you help me to sort out this issue or to give my advices? The shop doesn't know neither how to correct this. They did a first setup with the antenna in the middle position of the 2 front seats.


Hi, I had the same problem. I think its a bug in the Imprint software.
My solution was to set the bass to a minimum in al possible places on the 9887 before running Imprint. Equlizer + + + .
After running Imprint I manage to get some bass. Not 100% satified, but I have bass 

Stein Riise
Norway


----------



## najimasri

@Ben


----------



## najimasri

@Ben805
Thank you for your reply. I could indeed find a couple of posts regarding the lack of bass but unfortunatly it doesn't really apply to my setup. I do not have any amplifier or subwoofer, ... just the Audi standard setup: 2 Front splitted + 2 Rear splitted. For that reason, I was wondering how I could still match the advises.

@Ztein

Thank for your reply. We did test this morning using your advice but the outcome is indeed very disappointing though a little better with a CD rather than an iPod track. I will still investigate with the dealer and get in touch with Alpine Belgium though I do not expect a lot of support... I somebody else could add a experience on a similar setup, it would be great...


----------



## AWC

Ztein said:


> Hi, I had the same problem. I think its a bug in the Imprint software.
> My solution was to set the bass to a minimum in al possible places on the 9887 before running Imprint. Equlizer + + + .
> After running Imprint I manage to get some bass. Not 100% satified, but I have bass
> 
> Stein Riise
> Norway





najimasri said:


> @Ben805
> Thank you for your reply. I could indeed find a couple of posts regarding the lack of bass but unfortunatly it doesn't really apply to my setup. I do not have any amplifier or subwoofer, ... just the Audi standard setup: 2 Front splitted + 2 Rear splitted. For that reason, I was wondering how I could still match the advises.
> 
> @Ztein
> 
> Thank for your reply. We did test this morning using your advice but the outcome is indeed very disappointing though a little better with a CD rather than an iPod track. I will still investigate with the dealer and get in touch with Alpine Belgium though I do not expect a lot of support... I somebody else could add a experience on a similar setup, it would be great...


It isn't a bug in the system. If you don't have an external amp, a sub, or anything other than the Audi set-up...what exactly are you expecting? Perhaps if you got a sub, you'd get the bass you are wanting but Imprint is not a magical fairy from the land of Merlin and Arthur. Give it someting to work with.


----------



## oneiztoomany

AWC said:


> It isn't a bug in the system. If you don't have an external amp, a sub, or anything other than the Audi set-up...what exactly are you expecting? Perhaps if you got a sub, you'd get the bass you are wanting but Imprint is not a magical fairy from the land of Merlin and Arthur. Give it someting to work with.


hahahaahahaha


----------



## 1hawaii50

You can still use the "tricks" mentioned to get some bass from your stock speakers. You have to remember, the Imprint is "balancing" the bass with the rest of the system. We're used to pushing 100w per channel per speaker and 500-1000w to a single subwoofer. That's what we're used to hearing. Imprint is "matching" the 1000w sub to the 100w speakers. That's why we are "losing" bass. (We're not actually "losing" it, it is just balanced to the rest of the system now.)


----------



## 86mr2

I follow the alpine trainer's recommendations for mic placement, and I remove the headrests. I know one of the large variables for me is ambient noise. Trucks passing and worst of all jets from the airport passing overhead absolutely impact the results. 

I watched the RTA one day as a jet passed miles away and I assume at about 4,000 ft AGL. I was amazed at the amount of low freq energy transferred to the interior of the car even after the jet was out of sight.


----------



## AWC

1hawaii50 said:


> You can still use the "tricks" mentioned to get some bass from your stock speakers. You have to remember, the Imprint is "balancing" the bass with the rest of the system. We're used to pushing 100w per channel per speaker and 500-1000w to a single subwoofer. That's what we're used to hearing. Imprint is "matching" the 1000w sub to the 100w speakers. That's why we are "losing" bass. (We're not actually "losing" it, it is just balanced to the rest of the system now.)


the "tricks" involve amp gains...with no amps...how (you see where I'm going already don't you?)..how will he do that?


----------



## xlynoz

Hey this might be interesting.

After doing an Imprint run, I went in and manually adjusted the T/A, PEQ and crossovers (see previous thread). When I turned MultiEQ back on my staging was way off. So I decided to see what all can impact the MultiEQ if I mess with the settings manually. 

First test was to see if Imprint uses the settings that are already set up on the H/U when you do a run (i.e. if you have your PEQ set to something other than flat). I went ahead and cut one of the frequencies, I believe 800Hz all the way, ran Imprint and what do you know I had a big dip in the curves it threw out. So now I know PEQ adjustments before Imprinting affects the MultiEQ and making T/A adjustments after Imprint affects the MultiEQ as well. I tried to do the PEQ after to see if I could hear a difference but the time it takes to make the change and switch back is so long you can't do an A/B comparison. So I will put the RTA in this weekend and see if I can tell a diffence then.

This could be a great find for those of us that want to tweak MultiEQ's settings. At least we can manipulate the PEQ before we run Imprint.


----------



## Ztein

xlynoz said:


> Hey this might be interesting.
> 
> After doing an Imprint run, I went in and manually adjusted the T/A, PEQ and crossovers (see previous thread). When I turned MultiEQ back on my staging was way off. So I decided to see what all can impact the MultiEQ if I mess with the settings manually.
> 
> First test was to see if Imprint uses the settings that are already set up on the H/U when you do a run (i.e. if you have your PEQ set to something other than flat). I went ahead and cut one of the frequencies, I believe 800Hz all the way, ran Imprint and what do you know I had a big dip in the curves it threw out. So now I know PEQ adjustments before Imprinting affects the MultiEQ and making T/A adjustments after Imprint affects the MultiEQ as well. I tried to do the PEQ after to see if I could hear a difference but the time it takes to make the change and switch back is so long you can't do an A/B comparison. So I will put the RTA in this weekend and see if I can tell a diffence then.
> 
> This could be a great find for those of us that want to tweak MultiEQ's settings. At least we can manipulate the PEQ before we run Imprint.


I think the problem is that Imprint doing the test believes that i have subwoofers on my speaker system, even if I have spesified that I dont.
I have a 9887 + 4 focal speakers.


----------



## najimasri

Hi There,

Well, I have to confess that it is the first time that I take part to a forum ( I did subscribe on an other forum called Crunchfield over the same topic 2 days ago )... Thank you for all the input. Let me first give a couple of answers:

What am I looking for without any sub or amp? 
>Well, 1 year ago, I even didn't know that you could add a sub or amp in a car. I am curious and I am working in the automotive industry in a structure/fatigue/durability engineering simulation company. So, I am coping on a daily base with technology and I like to understand the root of some new features and use what is made available. In conclusion, I want to use 100% of my alpine since I don't see any restriction of adding any extra equipment to enjoy it. I have the chance to drive a company car but unfortunately, I can not modify/add any device from the leasing company. From my understanding, the standard equipment of such a car is not bad and worth it except if I have 2000Euro to change the setup, which I can't anyhow.

What am I looking for with the Imprint?
> Even without the extra am and sub, I feel that the Imprint brings some added value to my car audio experience. My car is very quite and I am sure that I could enjoy a better sound quality in terms of stereo image, clarify of the voices/instruments with a well balanced mid-low freq distribution. I am a novice and it was hard assimilate some statements from the previous posts (¼ or ½ of the amp,…etc). 

What I try to understand?
How to tune the Imprint properly with the dealer to retrieve some of the low frequency punch. Currently, when I deactivate the MultiEQ, I really could feel a nice deep punch of the bass but the overall rendering is lacking clarity, stage feeling and stereo rendering. I could retrieve those weaknesses in the current IMPRINT setup but without any the bass anymore. So, I feel we are close to the ideal solution for a novice like me.

Let me resume what I could read from the different posts:
I should first switch my MultiEQ off and modify the Parametric EQ to reduce the bass level, respectively increase the high freqs. Once ready, back in a very quite environment, we should rerun the Imprint setup. Am I right? If I set the Factory EQ to flat, does it help according to your experience? It is a petty that Alpine doesn't deactivate all EQ values automatically... Regarding the potential bug, do we have more information? Alpine Belgium says that they are not aware of any bug. Are they keener to provide a more accurate answer in UK, US, AUS?


----------



## Ztein

najimasri said:


> Hi There,
> 
> Let me resume what I could read from the different posts:
> I should first switch my MultiEQ off and modify the Parametric EQ to reduce the bass level, respectively increase the high freqs. Once ready, back in a very quite environment, we should rerun the Imprint setup. Am I right? If I set the Factory EQ to flat, does it help according to your experience? It is a petty that Alpine doesn't deactivate all EQ values automatically... Regarding the potential bug, do we have more information? Alpine Belgium says that they are not aware of any bug. Are they keener to provide a more accurate answer in UK, US, AUS?


I mean that you could have the MultiEQ switched ON. 
But lower the bass in all possible places, so when you run the Imprint there is no bass at all from the 9887. After running Imprint set it back to normal.
This way I got bass on my system.

I am talking about a bug, because Imprint thinks I have a sub and I dont. I believe that it take away all bass from the other speaker and output it to the missing sub.

I have a good sound today, but are running the 9887 with +7 on the bass to get a bass level that I can live with driving in my MB E240.


----------



## 86mr2

Ztein,

I do not think that Imprint "Thinks" you have a sub, but to be sure, check that you have subwoofer set to no in the Audio setup. Check that you do not have any crossovers set. That might be a problem.


----------



## AWC

xlynoz said:


> Hey this might be interesting.
> 
> After doing an Imprint run, I went in and manually adjusted the T/A, PEQ and crossovers (see previous thread). When I turned MultiEQ back on my staging was way off. So I decided to see what all can impact the MultiEQ if I mess with the settings manually.
> 
> First test was to see if Imprint uses the settings that are already set up on the H/U when you do a run (i.e. if you have your PEQ set to something other than flat). I went ahead and cut one of the frequencies, I believe 800Hz all the way, ran Imprint and what do you know I had a big dip in the curves it threw out. So now I know PEQ adjustments before Imprinting affects the MultiEQ and making T/A adjustments after Imprint affects the MultiEQ as well. I tried to do the PEQ after to see if I could hear a difference but the time it takes to make the change and switch back is so long you can't do an A/B comparison. So I will put the RTA in this weekend and see if I can tell a diffence then.
> 
> This could be a great find for those of us that want to tweak MultiEQ's settings. At least we can manipulate the PEQ before we run Imprint.


This is very interesting and am awaiting your results.



Ztein said:


> I think the problem is that Imprint doing the test believes that i have subwoofers on my speaker system, even if I have spesified that I dont.
> I have a 9887 + 4 focal speakers.


no it doesn't. it believes you need one.


----------



## 1hawaii50

AWC said:


> the "tricks" involve amp gains...with no amps...how (you see where I'm going already don't you?)..how will he do that?


The tricks I'm talking about deal with turning down all of the bass settings w/in the HEAD UNIT, no amp involved there...that's how he does that. It's been mentioned throughout this thread quite a few times.


----------



## AtticusTRD

Quick question does the Midrange Comp. setup lower your sub frequency/ out put?

My bass is non existing with the Midrange Comp setting....


----------



## 86mr2

Only difference as I understand it is that the there is a low-Q cut around 2khz to compensate for power response problems in that neighborhood. Should not affect sub bass.

You likely had a measurement problem on the run you used. You should try the "turn down the sub gains" trick when you run it again. Remove your headrests if you can too.


----------



## bernardo

its not suppossed to

did you check the crutchfield forum? a guy form alpine give us a lot of tricks

http://community.crutchfield.com/forums/post/32684.aspx


----------



## ben805

In my setup the Mid-Comp always give me more punchy and quicker low end, a little more laid back(probably due to around ~2Khz cut), and slightly lower and deeper sound stage. The Reference yield more low end extension and a bit slower, though more forward and stronger mid range especially vocal stuff.


----------



## 86mr2

I have almost always used the "Reference" curve because I had a problem with my tweeter crossover point. I made some changes to the crossover, and now I am running the Midrange Comp for most sources. It works better with poorly recorded sources.


----------



## AtticusTRD

Ill re run imprint. As Reference is giving me lows but my mid range comp gives me nothing, i have to turn up the gain on my amp to get bass. Kinda odd. 

I did the lower gain setting recommend from the alpine rep from crutchfield as well.

Ill run imprint and see how it goes. Thanks guys.


----------



## zerodb

Has anyone experimented with the Imprint kit with HLCDs using the onboard crossovers?

I just purchased a 505 and the Imprint add-on package; I'm switching from a CarPC based setup to something (hopefully) a little more simple and reliable. 

I'm running a pair of Image Dynamics CD2 Comp horns under the dash, A/D/S 6.5" mids (undersized to match the horns, I know). I'm hoping that the Imprint process will help me get the horn/mid frequency and time alignment under control but I'm a little confused at how the Imprint unit works with 3-way setups. Does it really disable the xovers when you go to perform measurements? That seems downright dangerous for people with a fully active setup.


----------



## AWC

zerodb said:


> Has anyone experimented with the Imprint kit with HLCDs using the onboard crossovers?
> 
> I just purchased a 505 and the Imprint add-on package; I'm switching from a CarPC based setup to something (hopefully) a little more simple and reliable.
> 
> I'm running a pair of Image Dynamics CD2 Comp horns under the dash, A/D/S 6.5" mids (undersized to match the horns, I know). I'm hoping that the Imprint process will help me get the horn/mid frequency and time alignment under control but I'm a little confused at how the Imprint unit works with 3-way setups. Does it really disable the xovers when you go to perform measurements? That seems downright dangerous for people with a fully active setup.



Tuning is done on a frequency by frequecny basis. In reality it is done at several different points on the spectrum at regular intervals. When you put the crossover settings in manually, they are stored and "resespected". The thought is that they don't exceed the crossover settings but may present a lesser task than what you've set.


----------



## 86mr2

My understanding is that the tweeter chirp is full range. (from a post waaay back in this thread)


----------



## zerodb

86mr2 said:


> My understanding is that the tweeter chirp is full range. (from a post waaay back in this thread)


I guess I'm not TOO worried; the ID horns are pretty durable. Still, that seems like a generally bad practice.


----------



## jfokkema

After many tries now I have the best result yet. Enough bass, however sound is both dull in the low end and schrill in the high end (after setting crossover to -2db). 

Using the treble and bass adjustments makes the sound quality result far from hifi. It seems putting them in center position gives the best sound quality but then it lacks punch from the kick range (80-300Hz estimated). You cannot compensate this by increasing the sub level since that produces only lower frequencies.

By the way, anyone knows the frequency of the MultiEQ treble and bass ajustment settings?


----------



## AWC

jfokkema said:


> After many tries now I have the best result yet. Enough bass, however sound is both dull in the low end and schrill in the high end (after setting crossover to -2db).
> 
> Using the treble and bass adjustments makes the sound quality result far from hifi. It seems putting them in center position gives the best sound quality but then it lacks punch from the kick range (80-300Hz estimated). You cannot compensate this by increasing the sub level since that produces only lower frequencies.
> 
> By the way, anyone knows the frequency of the MultiEQ treble and bass ajustment settings?



not to belittle you, I'm just double checking....logic would have the top set of RCA's as the tweets and the middle as the mids and the low set as the subs....this isn't the case. Ensure you have the middle set of RCA's going to the tweets. The top set (or fronts) is the midbass NOT the tweeters.


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## ghart999

AWC said:


> not to belittle you, I'm just double checking....logic would have the top set of RCA's as the tweets and the middle as the mids and the low set as the subs....this isn't the case. Ensure you have the middle set of RCA's going to the tweets. The top set (or fronts) is the midbass NOT the tweeters.


I made this mistake too. Took awhile to figure out too.


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## zerodb

This may be a stupid question, but does anyone know if, with the H100 Imprint processor connected and set to 3-way to manage my front stage and subs, there is any way to still use the head unit's preouts or onboard amp to put out a full-range signal to drive a set of rear fill speakers? I know I obviously couldn't have this happen while the MultEQ setup is run, but after the fact I wouldn't mind having an extra set of speakers in the back for my passengers when running videos or something (now that I think about it, I think the w505 has a set of audio outputs meant for a second video monitor, those may be my solution).


----------



## xlynoz

xlynoz said:


> Hey this might be interesting.
> 
> After doing an Imprint run, I went in and manually adjusted the T/A, PEQ and crossovers (see previous thread). When I turned MultiEQ back on my staging was way off. So I decided to see what all can impact the MultiEQ if I mess with the settings manually.
> 
> First test was to see if Imprint uses the settings that are already set up on the H/U when you do a run (i.e. if you have your PEQ set to something other than flat). I went ahead and cut one of the frequencies, I believe 800Hz all the way, ran Imprint and what do you know I had a big dip in the curves it threw out. So now I know PEQ adjustments before Imprinting affects the MultiEQ and making T/A adjustments after Imprint affects the MultiEQ as well. I tried to do the PEQ after to see if I could hear a difference but the time it takes to make the change and switch back is so long you can't do an A/B comparison. So I will put the RTA in this weekend and see if I can tell a diffence then.
> 
> This could be a great find for those of us that want to tweak MultiEQ's settings. At least we can manipulate the PEQ before we run Imprint.


Sorry about being slow on this one, my laptop has issues. I haven't been able to put the RTA in the car because of that but I decided to just wing it and do it by ear. From what I can tell making adjustments to the PEQ after the Imprint is done does not impact the sound of the two MultiEQ settings. However if you make a change in the T/A after the Imprint is done it will impact the staging of the two MultiEQ settings. When I get this damn laptop back in working order I will test using the RTA just to be sure.


----------



## jfokkema

> Originally Posted by AWC
> not to belittle you, I'm just double checking....logic would have the top set of RCA's as the tweets and the middle as the mids and the low set as the subs....this isn't the case. Ensure you have the middle set of RCA's going to the tweets. The top set (or fronts) is the midbass NOT the tweeters.


I'm not running active, but front, rear, sub.
The crossover I mentioned is the hardware filter of the compo set.


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## zerodb

xlynoz said:


> Sorry about being slow on this one, my laptop has issues. I haven't been able to put the RTA in the car because of that but I decided to just wing it and do it by ear. From what I can tell making adjustments to the PEQ after the Imprint is done does not impact the sound of the two MultiEQ settings. However if you make a change in the T/A after the Imprint is done it will impact the staging of the two MultiEQ settings. When I get this damn laptop back in working order I will test using the RTA just to be sure.


So it seems like we would get the best results if we manually tweaked the PEQ to be close to our liking (with the exception of deliberately cutting bass down) before running the MultEQ measurements. I would imagine this leaves MultEQ with fewer and finer adjustments to make. 

Then again, I think this thing is just generating an inverse transfer function and shoving it into a dsp convolver, so it probably has more adjustment points than it knows what to do with anyway.


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## M3NTAL

I just ran MultiEQ for the first time on my new install. I removed the headrests as recommended, but did not change any gains.

I set all crossovers to flat before running and set the subwoofer to -- (basically 0, but you can still hear it play)

I ran the first 5 locations and chose ref. and ref mid comp.

Needless to say - there is plenty of bass. from -- to 6/7 it blends seamlessly and from 7-15 you can really tell there IS a subwoofer in the vehicle. With 1 TS-W12PRS and the rear channels of a Xenon X200.4 bridged to it, it made my hairs move.

So in my experience, no gain settings needed changed.


----------



## AWC

jfokkema said:


> I'm not running active, but front, rear, sub.
> The crossover I mentioned is the hardware filter of the compo set.


is the crossover (passive) setg up correctly? This doesn't sound like an audyssey issue. Also, was there an amp crossover (low-pass maybe) activated when running the multiq? If that was the case then it was switched off, it would dramatically compensate highs since you didn't allow them through during tuning.


----------



## jfokkema

AWC said:


> is the crossover (passive) setg up correctly? This doesn't sound like an audyssey issue. Also, was there an amp crossover (low-pass maybe) activated when running the multiq? If that was the case then it was switched off, it would dramatically compensate highs since you didn't allow them through during tuning.


I set the passive crossover before measuring to +2db to boost the tweeter, put it back afterwards to -2db.

The gain of the sub I increased afterwards to get more total bass.

As a result, the sound lacks clarity AND kickbass. So the question remains:
How to compensate for the lack of kickbass without compromising the overall sound quality??


----------



## Owlmerlyn

Hi all, especially Xlynoz

In agreement with some other reviewers, whilst I think imprint does a great job at balancing the sound stage and frequency spectrum, I find the sound a lot less “silky” than what I was hoping for. Specifically there is an annoying upper-mid frequency (I suspect about 4kh) that interferes with the top end, especially on rock. I find myself constantly turning down the volume when choruses and big guitars kick in because the sound is so piercing – irrespective of eq curves chosen. Even turning down the treble doesn’t help because you lose a lot of the other “good” frequencies whilst trying to deal with the annoying ones.

With this in mind, the recent posts regarding how the set-up of the 9887 _*prior*_ to running the imprint are interesting in terms of possibilities of tweaking the sound. I just wanted to re-iterate a few points made by others, confirm that I understood them correctly, and make some comments:

1. The PEQ settings in the HU are taken into account during the imprinting and affect the output curve.
2. The TA settings dialled in after the imprint has been run affects the imprinted time alignment.
3. The cross-over settings in the HU are over-written during the imprint tuning and therefore do not affect the cross-over used by imprint in the output curves.

I think that summarises some of the recent discussions.

My comments. I thought that all user settings (including EQ, TA and Cross-over) are ignored / set to zero during the imprint session and therefore have no affect over the final result. Even if the unit did take account of the user-EQ settings while running the set-up I am not sure how that would affect the end result because the unit would keep those settings while running. I fiddled with the PEQ and swapped back to imprint and didn’t hear any difference. The only way these settings could affect the final result is if it uses them to tune the system, but when you engage imprint it sets the PEQ to flat. I don’t think this happens, although I would be happy if it did so cos then you could tweak the sound. Xlynos, no disrespect, but I am assuming you compared your run when you carved out 800hz on the PEQ with an earlier run where you didn’t, and it was significantly different. I know that I get significant dips and peaks anyway, and I would be tempted to think they were generated by the PEQ when in fact it was just cabin acoustics and the sound system that created them. It would be great to see a comparison of the different curves.

I did some extreme TA settings to test Xlynos’s assertion that they affected the imprint sound and must say I didn’t hear any difference. 

It would be great if Alpine responded to these kinds of questions (with a faq or something similar) and gave us the low-down of what actually happens instead of us having to surmise.


----------



## xlynoz

zerodb said:


> So it seems like we would get the best results if we manually tweaked the PEQ to be close to our liking (with the exception of deliberately cutting bass down) before running the MultEQ measurements. I would imagine this leaves MultEQ with fewer and finer adjustments to make.
> 
> Then again, I think this thing is just generating an inverse transfer function and shoving it into a dsp convolver, so it probably has more adjustment points than it knows what to do with anyway.



Since we are tweaking the PEQ before the Imprint I'm not sure how much we can customize it to our liking since the Imprint will try to compensate for what it thinks the curve should be. This was merely an activity to determine what we could possibly do to tweak the sound after the Imprint was done. I was really hoping if the PEQ was changed after the Imprint was done that it would somehow affect the Imprint curve but that does not appear to be the case.

Now you can still affect the Bass and Treble frequencies. Meaning if you think you need more or less gain around those center frequencies, increase/decrease the setting before the Imprint is done and then you have more headroom to work with after because Imprint will set the curve with those Bass and Treble settings leaving you with more adjustment in one direction. For example, I like top end detail, not a lot but I listen to older rock which doesn't always have it. I set the Treble to -2 before the Imprint and then I have more headroom after to increase it.


----------



## xlynoz

Owlmerlyn said:


> Hi all, especially Xlynoz
> 
> In agreement with some other reviewers, whilst I think imprint does a great job at balancing the sound stage and frequency spectrum, I find the sound a lot less “silky” than what I was hoping for. Specifically there is an annoying upper-mid frequency (I suspect about 4kh) that interferes with the top end, especially on rock. I find myself constantly turning down the volume when choruses and big guitars kick in because the sound is so piercing – irrespective of eq curves chosen. Even turning down the treble doesn’t help because you lose a lot of the other “good” frequencies whilst trying to deal with the annoying ones.
> 
> With this in mind, the recent posts regarding how the set-up of the 9887 _*prior*_ to running the imprint are interesting in terms of possibilities of tweaking the sound. I just wanted to re-iterate a few points made by others, confirm that I understood them correctly, and make some comments:
> 
> 1. The PEQ settings in the HU are taken into account during the imprinting and affect the output curve.
> 2. The TA settings dialled in after the imprint has been run affects the imprinted time alignment.
> 3. The cross-over settings in the HU are over-written during the imprint tuning and therefore do not affect the cross-over used by imprint in the output curves.
> 
> I think that summarises some of the recent discussions.
> 
> My comments. I thought that all user settings (including EQ, TA and Cross-over) are ignored / set to zero during the imprint session and therefore have no affect over the final result. Even if the unit did take account of the user-EQ settings while running the set-up I am not sure how that would affect the end result because the unit would keep those settings while running. I fiddled with the PEQ and swapped back to imprint and didn’t hear any difference. The only way these settings could affect the final result is if it uses them to tune the system, but when you engage imprint it sets the PEQ to flat. I don’t think this happens, although I would be happy if it did so cos then you could tweak the sound. Xlynos, no disrespect, but I am assuming you compared your run when you carved out 800hz on the PEQ with an earlier run where you didn’t, and it was significantly different. I know that I get significant dips and peaks anyway, and I would be tempted to think they were generated by the PEQ when in fact it was just cabin acoustics and the sound system that created them. It would be great to see a comparison of the different curves.
> 
> I did some extreme TA settings to test Xlynos’s assertion that they affected the imprint sound and must say I didn’t hear any difference.
> 
> It would be great if Alpine responded to these kinds of questions (with a faq or something similar) and gave us the low-down of what actually happens instead of us having to surmise.


I have done about 30 runs with the Imprint module now and for my setup I can definitely say the following things are true:
1) Modifying the TA after Imprinting affects *my* staging. After Imprinting the system I have a strong center stage. If I turn off MultiEQ, adjust the TA and turn MultiEQ back on that strong center stage is gone.

2) If I drastically cut or boost a frequency on the PEQ before Imprinting that peak or dip shows up on the "before" curve in the Imprint software. Imprint will compensate for this but the hope is to be able to adjust enough in the opposite direction of what Imprint will do so that you can get the desired end result.

As for the crossover points I am now just playing with that. I do think if you are running an active 3-way with the HU that Imprint will keep whatever tweeter crossover point you have set before doing the run but I cannot confirm at this time.

So to be perfectly clear I'm doing this with the 9887. I know some people with the 505/H100 are posting to this thread as well. Also I have one of the first 9887's that came out so it's also possible there are revisions of the 9887 that could allow for these differences. For example when I engage MultiEQ it generates system noise. I have only seen two other people say they have this issue and most others say they don't have that problem.

Just my $.02


----------



## zerodb

I believe there's a professional version of the imprint software which allows adjustment of the target curve... I keep hoping someone will find a way to edit them on the consumer version.


----------



## Owlmerlyn

xlynoz said:


> I have done about 30 runs with the Imprint module now and for my setup I can definitely say the following things are true:
> 1) Modifying the TA after Imprinting affects *my* staging. After Imprinting the system I have a strong center stage. If I turn off MultiEQ, adjust the TA and turn MultiEQ back on that strong center stage is gone.
> 
> 2) If I drastically cut or boost a frequency on the PEQ before Imprinting that peak or dip shows up on the "before" curve in the Imprint software. Imprint will compensate for this but the hope is to be able to adjust enough in the opposite direction of what Imprint will do so that you can get the desired end result.
> 
> As for the crossover points I am now just playing with that. I do think if you are running an active 3-way with the HU that Imprint will keep whatever tweeter crossover point you have set before doing the run but I cannot confirm at this time.
> 
> So to be perfectly clear I'm doing this with the 9887. I know some people with the 505/H100 are posting to this thread as well. Also I have one of the first 9887's that came out so it's also possible there are revisions of the 9887 that could allow for these differences. For example when I engage MultiEQ it generates system noise. I have only seen two other people say they have this issue and most others say they don't have that problem.
> 
> Just my $.02


30 runs?! You must be dreaming imprint curves at night 

For what its worth, here is a quote from the audyssy FAQ _"Does MultEQ consider any of the settings in the receiver before running the calibration?
No, all internal settings are ignored during calibration. This includes crossover points, channel levels, delays, tone controls and master volume." http://www.audyssey.com/faq/index.html#receiversettings._

Having noted that, lets assume that extreme PEQ settings might influence the result by pushing a signal from the speakers that the software does not have the head room to compensate for - thereby outputting a "distorted" curve - how would you make it work in your favour? Lets say you want to reduce the level of 3k in the imprinted curve, would you boost or cut the PEQ before starting the calibration? If you have noticed any discernable difference to the actual sound based on "manipulating" the calibration in this way I would be very pleased to know.

With reference to the noise issue, I notice a bit of an increase in noise when engaging the MultiEQ, but I have to listen carefully for it. It hasn't bothered me. Perhaps, as you imply, some modifcations _were_ done on the HU's and you and I are own different "versions". 

In terms of allowing user-modifyable output curves I am sure that that is a software issue that could easiliy be programmed into version 2 of the Imprint programme. As far as I am concerned the whole system is 95% "there", meaning its so close to being perfect that the niggling imperfections are extremely annoying. If only we could be given some added control to adjust for taste the system would be about as perfect as one could get.


----------



## Owlmerlyn

zerodb said:


> I believe there's a professional version of the imprint software which allows adjustment of the target curve... I keep hoping someone will find a way to edit them on the consumer version.


Good point zerodb. It can't be that hard to give us "consumers" access to at least some of the functionality of the professional version. As far as I am concerned, if you shelled out the dosh to get the 9887 and the KTX100 its because you want SQ and your research led you to the HU, and if you want SQ you probably have knowledge of calibration, frequencies etc, and if you have that knowledge you will also probably want to, and have the expertise necessary to be able to tweak to your taste. I.e. 9887 owners will be in the more educated sector of car audio enthusiasts and should be treated as such by allowing greater control of the output from the calibration process. Right now I feel like I need to insert another eq unit between the HU and the amp to do the tweaking I want. This really shouldn't be necessary because, bar the user limitations built into the system, the technology itself is more than capable of delivering what I need.


----------



## 86mr2

zerodb said:


> I believe there's a professional version of the imprint software which allows adjustment of the target curve... I keep hoping someone will find a way to edit them on the consumer version.


Where did you get this information? Never heard this before.


----------



## zerodb

86mr2 said:


> Where did you get this information? Never heard this before.


Now I'm questioning myself, but I thought the H650's software allows curve customization or maybe I'm just thinking of the fact that it allows eq to be used after MultEQ is run. But I could swear that at some point I read about a version of the imprint software that was intended for shop/pro use in tuning customer cars which allowed more than just the baseline curves. 

I did a google search and located my own post making this claim, but I don't think that's sufficient to support the idea.


----------



## zerodb

OK, I FINALLY got a chance to go out tonight and try to plug into my H100 to do an Imprint run.

I tried with THREE different laptops and I'm getting nothing. Installed Alpine software, installed driver software, plug in the USB cable and I get no "ding-dong" sound like windows usually spits out when I plug in a USB peripheral. Tried a different usb-miniusb cable, still no dice. Imprint software just gives me the "port open" error, device manager isn't showing anything additional when I plug in the H100. 

My H100 was a little odd from the start, when I first attached it to the W505 it wasn't recognized; I had to wiggle the AInet connector a little to get it. Since then I've noticed a couple of times that it seems to have lost my crossover settings and gone back to default. I'm thinking I may have a defective unit with some bad connections on that side of the board or something.


----------



## jimsan

How much is the imprint kit and does it work with a 9855?

Thanks

J


----------



## 86mr2

zerodb said:


> Now I'm questioning myself, but I thought the H650's software allows curve customization or maybe I'm just thinking of the fact that it allows eq to be used after MultEQ is run. But I could swear that at some point I read about a version of the imprint software that was intended for shop/pro use in tuning customer cars which allowed more than just the baseline curves.
> 
> I did a google search and located my own post making this claim, but I don't think that's sufficient to support the idea.


Sorry, I thought you were talking about the 9887, i see now you are talking about the H100. This thread has become rather confused of late since it has sort of become a general Imprint thread. You might have more luck getting a reply with a new thread.


----------



## 86mr2

jimsan said:


> How much is the imprint kit and does it work with a 9855?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> J


There are a variety of Imprint products. From the Alpine website (Google is your friend):

*PXA-H100 IMPRINT Audio Processor*

Compatible Units: iDA-X100, iDA-X200, CDA-9886, CDA-9884, IVA-W505, IVA-D106 

*KTX-100EQ IMPRINT Sound Manager*

The KTX-100EQ is the key to unlock the amazing capabilities of IMPRINT™ in the CDA-9887. U.S. $250.00 


*PXE-H650 System Integration Audio Processor*

I suppose it would work with anythng, but be overkill. U.S. $450.00 

The prices are MSRP, a web search will find you the online or street prices.


----------



## jimsan

Silly me I need an Imprint capable headunit first! haha 

Seems a nice little setup for the 9887 and price is very reasonable.

J


----------



## M3NTAL

I'm pretty sure this is possible, but don't hear it mentioned.

Anyone using BOTH a driver seat eq preset and a FULL FRONT preset? I know you send your filters then unplug all your equipment (leaving imprint running on PC) and test your results - go back and reconnect just the parts that connect to the PC and send different filters. This way you can try all 3 curves. Of course you'd need to re-mic once you find which single seat filters you like and send the full front filters to the other curve save profile.


----------



## M3NTAL

I'm pretty sure this is possible, but don't hear it mentioned.

Anyone using BOTH a driver seat eq preset and a FULL FRONT preset? I know you send your filters then unplug all your equipment (leaving imprint running on PC) and test your results - go back and reconnect just the parts that connect to the PC and send different filters. This way you can try all 3 curves. Of course you'd need to re-mic once you find which single seat filters you like and send the full front filters to the other curve save profile.


----------



## 86mr2

M3NTAL said:


> I know you send your filters then unplug all your equipment (leaving imprint running on PC) and test your results - go back and reconnect just the parts that connect to the PC and send different filters.


Is this possible? Whenever I have accidentally disconnected the comp during a tuning session, I have had to restart from the beginning.


----------



## M3NTAL

AFTER tuning session.. You must have to finish microphone placements and send a curve. I disconnected everything and went back and hooked it up again with no issues.


----------



## xlynoz

M3NTAL said:


> AFTER tuning session.. You must have to finish microphone placements and send a curve. I disconnected everything and went back and hooked it up again with no issues.


I have done the same thing and tested all three curves from the same run. However I have never tried saving curves from two different runs. I think it should work as I don't believe the Imprint erases the curve saved unless you are over writing it. Do a run and let us know.


----------



## M3NTAL

Yes, I will be doing this tomorrow actually and I will update you.

I see absolutely no reason why it won't since - like you stated - it doesn't erase curves, it only saves/overwrites them where you select. Just more mic tuning time than normal.

Cool to swap from single seat to full at the press of a button.

Reference with mid comp seems the most musical in my car. Regular reference doesn't hit the spot and Linear doesn't sound natural.


----------



## M3NTAL

Yes, I will be doing this tomorrow actually and I will update you.

I see absolutely no reason why it won't since - like you stated - it doesn't erase curves, it only saves/overwrites them where you select. Just more mic tuning time than normal.

Cool to swap from single seat to full at the press of a button.

Reference with mid comp seems the most musical in my car. Regular reference doesn't hit the spot and Linear doesn't sound natural.


----------



## hellbentd

hi all my 1st post. been watching ( and hopefully learning) from the discussion. you guys have helped me get an understanding of the imprint far more than the vague directions thanks!


----------



## M3NTAL

I have a tuning question for some people that are a little more experiences with it (Hopefully Alpine can chime in here.. Mr. Bell??)

Like some vehicles.. my vehicles has better low frequency extension with the interior being vented outwards (windows open)

Should I tune my vehicle with the windows cracked or sunroof open so that Imprint can tune that better?


----------



## M3NTAL

UPDATE!!!!

Let down city... It erases your curves, so it will only send the curves that are a part of the current Imprint testing.

For those who complain about bass.. I am going to assume you are using the front left position. It time aligns the sub and eq's it in such a way that it is trying to blend it up front as best as possible. The design of you car doesn't allow BOTH correct placement and LOUD output IMO.

Full front provides a much fuller sound, with a larger sound stage, just NOT directly in front of your face.

If you move your head forward towards the windshield, you will find a lot of your missing bass also


----------



## xlynoz

Well after 30 plus runs I have decided the Imprint module is just not for me. Here are the things I didn't like about it:

-Its curves included too much upper mid range/low treble for my taste. I was able to work through some of this but could not get it all the way resolved. I used the linear curve for most music and when it came to the hair metal it could get unbearable.

- The staging was great compared to where it was before I started. This was the thing that kept me using it. However I always found that the center stage was always to the right of where it should be by 6 - 8 inches (at least it was consistent). I learned to work around it with the mic placement and sometimes it was a pain to get it just right.

- When engaging the MultiEQ it introduced system noise, way too much in my opinion. As soon as you turned it off it went away. Definitely related to the Imprint processor.

- As much as I wanted to get a way from tweaking and to have a simple solution, I am a tweaker at heart. It was very hard for me to not want to tweak and make things perfect. It killed me that I had no adjustments whatsoever.

-With my new set up, Seas CA18s mids and neo textile tweets, Imprint could not set a curve for crap. It sounded horrible.

Once I really sat down and listened to the system, manually adjusted the TA and xovers I got the system to really shine. The imaging actually got better then what it was with Imprint. That shocked me the most. At this point with just setting the TA and xovers by ear and keeping the PEQ flat on the HU, I have a much better sound than I had with Imprint. So at this point I will not be going back to it.

Don't get me wrong I think for most people it will do 90% of what they want and for the quick and easy requirement it will fill the bill with few limitations. For those that don't want to tweak or have hours to spend with an RTA the Imprint module is the way to go. I think as this technology matures it will be unreal. 

Keep enjoying it.


----------



## ninogui

xlynoz said:


> Well after 30 plus runs I have decided the Imprint module is just not for me. Here are the things I didn't like about it:
> 
> -Its curves included too much upper mid range/low treble for my taste. I was able to work through some of this but could not get it all the way resolved. I used the linear curve for most music and when it came to the hair metal it could get unbearable.
> 
> - The staging was great compared to where it was before I started. This was the thing that kept me using it. However I always found that the center stage was always to the right of where it should be by 6 - 8 inches (at least it was consistent). I learned to work around it with the mic placement and sometimes it was a pain to get it just right.
> 
> - When engaging the MultiEQ it introduced system noise, way too much in my opinion. As soon as you turned it off it went away. Definitely related to the Imprint processor.
> 
> - As much as I wanted to get a way from tweaking and to have a simple solution, I am a tweaker at heart. It was very hard for me to not want to tweak and make things perfect. It killed me that I had no adjustments whatsoever.
> 
> -With my new set up, Seas CA18s mids and neo textile tweets, Imprint could not set a curve for crap. It sounded horrible.
> 
> Once I really sat down and listened to the system, manually adjusted the TA and xovers I got the system to really shine. The imaging actually got better then what it was with Imprint. That shocked me the most. At this point with just setting the TA and xovers by ear and keeping the PEQ flat on the HU, I have a much better sound than I had with Imprint. So at this point I will not be going back to it.
> 
> Don't get me wrong I think for most people it will do 90% of what they want and for the quick and easy requirement it will fill the bill with few limitations. For those that don't want to tweak or have hours to spend with an RTA the Imprint module is the way to go. I think as this technology matures it will be unreal.
> 
> Keep enjoying it.


I totally agree with you man.

From all my findings a few months ago, and after about 20 runs i got to the very same conclusions, including the noise multeq introduces in the system, stage heading to the right, etc.

After i started messing with independent left and right crossover points i really don´t need the imprint hassle.

with my hertz mlk-165 2way kit (tweeters at sail rearview mirror panel and mids at door/leg facing) plus focal sb33v2 in the trunk, and of course much depending on the cd media quality inserted, crossover settings are as follows:

low cross/sub:

left and right to 0db - 40Hz or 50Hz, 12/18/24 db depending on the bass clearness and quality, and also type of music;

left and right mid-low to 0db - 50 Hz 24 db;

left mid-high to 0db - 3200Hz 18 db;

right mid-high to -1db - 3200Hz 18 db; **1*

left high to -2db - 3200Hz 24 db; **1*

right high to 0db - 3200Hz or 2500Hz; **1*

**1* - this is a trick some people use on pxa-700 to up the right frontstage for both the driver and passenger seat. Usually if you use left and right similar crossover settings the right stage at its right most area will tend to drop while on the driver seat. So, lowering the left tweeter in relation to the right and lowering the right mid just a tinny bit crosses the soundwaves, thus ending with a much better result. choose either 3.2 or 2.5 KHz depending on your personal taste.

For EQ i am also mostly flat, just with +2 or +3db(1.5slope) at 63Hz for front stage bass filling and +5 or +6(1.5slope) at 16KHz for brilliance.

All and all i consider this one of the best pure cd-play units alpine has ever done, regardless of imprint working as advertised or not! so alpine´s marketing for this unit should focus on suggestions for soundstage setting instead of imprint magic lolololol



best rgds


----------



## tspence73

Well,

In my opinion, this would have been a lot better if they utilized a binaural microphone system like the upcoming JBL processor. My second complaint is even needing an outboard box at all. They should have made the headunit so you can connect it to a laptop via USB and then sold the software for the computer and the binaural microphone. That would have been a better way to design the whole system.

1. Headunit
2. Mic and software in one package.
3. Install software on your laptop.
4. Allow for re-drawing or changing the linear reference curve after tuning to meet listener taste.
5. Multiple preset curves because no two recordings are made the same.

The MS-8 from JBL may not be giving the ideal option of having a headunit be all you need, but at least they give the listener the option to really alter the reference curve for their own personal taste.

Now you may ask, "Why is the ability to change the reference range important? Shouldn't a flat response sound perfect?". Most people make a pretty bad assumption that tuning a car to a flat frequency response will make their favorite music sound more real. They are wrong as hell.

Let's all look at the best possible scenario. You tune your car flat as can be. What do you now need in order to have perfectly accurate reproduction? Well, you need a source recording that was engineered to playback on a flat response system. Uh oh. Problem. The fantasy is over. MOST if not all popular recordings on the market are NOT recorded, mixed & mastered for a flat tuned audio system. 

The reality of the recording industry. The recording industry is in the business of selling as many albums as possible. The entire business model has been carefully designed in the music industry. All the way down to the method of studio recording, mixing and mastering. The music industry mandates to it's engineers to make the signal as "hot" as possible and to make sure that the product can sound good on anything, even a small pathetic radio. 

So, what happens when your car is now tuned flat and you playback the CD on your system? You hear something that is FAR from real. Vocals will sound 'wrong', bass will be 'weak', drums don't sound like real drums, ambience sounds harsh and fake, cymbals and shakers sound irritating. In short, modern pop and rock recordings will sound phony on a flat tuned system.

I would argue that the flat tuned system lacks bass so badly that even classical recordings made on a soundstage and mastered for flat-response playback still lack a certain mid-bass and deep bass character that you hear in real-life sounds. I think it's most likely that the microphones used to capture the sound don't pick up frequencies like your ears do. Some things get lost in the translation and anyone who is being honest can hear it. When accuracy is the goal, it's almost always falling short of the way the real thing sounds.

IMO, the very best recordings I've ever heard are recordings of stage musicals. Something about the microphones used in those recordings sound more 'real' to me. With a flat response playback those recordings actually sound really good because there is a realism to even the bass sounds of footsteps on the stage and the orchestra sound really good too.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. These processors are NOT going to deliver you truly accurate sound. It's up to you to find that with additional adjustments. I believe the processor can give you a really good starting point to begin adjustments though.


----------



## YellowC4S

First post. I too have run Imprint numerous times. I have had the problem with running out of steam at about 24-25 on the volume. I have had the bass problem. I have had the problem with too much bass being fed to my comps and not enough to my sub. I am running a 9887 with one set of Focal Utopia 136w's and one JL Audio 10W6v2 sub. Amplifiers are a JL Audio 300/2v2 and a 250/1v2 in a Mazda3s HB. I just adjust the x-over points on the hp/lp filters on the amps, lower the gains a little, run the Imprint, turn the gains back up and I'm fine. I've spent countless hours trying to tune it by ear and while I can get the tonal qualities just right I just can't do what Imprint does when it comes to T/A and staging.


----------



## meridianblade

what should I set the crossovers to on my 4ch mid/highs amp before running this? full? and what should the crossovers on my sub amp be set to?


----------



## 86mr2

Read this thread, post what speakers you are running and your setup - active or passive, and we will be able to help you.


----------



## meridianblade

You're right! sorry about that, here it is:

2002 Ford Ranger XLT
Alpine 9887 + Imprint System + Ipod

Mids/High
California 4ch 700w
4 Infinity Kappas 6 x 9 2-way (directional tweets)

Lows
Lanzar 2ch 1000w (bridged mode)
2 Kicker Comp VR 12's
Rockford Fosgate Cap

I read a good 15 pages but didn't really see anything clean cut, or maybe I just missed it 
So im just not sure what I should set the crossovers to on the 2ch and 4ch amp..

Thank you!


----------



## 86mr2

More questions:

1. Do you have the switch on the bottom set to 2way +sub?
2. I assume you are using the passive crossovers that came with the 6x9's?

Assuming the above two statements are true, as per the manual, there is no need to set a crossover between the subs and the fullrange speakers. Imprint will set the crossover itself. A lot of people have not been happy with the results and then set a crossover in the deck at an appropriate frequency prior to running Imprint. I use 80hz, but I am running non-automotive mids. In this case there is no need to use the crossovers in the amps at all.

Are you only using two channels of the fullrange amp, or do you have it bridged?

If you are running active, things are different. Then you need to set a highpass at the amp or use a protection capacitor for the tweets or they could get fried.


----------



## meridianblade

86mr2 said:


> More questions:
> 
> 1. Do you have the switch on the bottom set to 2way +sub?
> 2. I assume you are using the passive crossovers that came with the 6x9's?
> 
> Assuming the above two statements are true, as per the manual, there is no need to set a crossover between the subs and the fullrange speakers. Imprint will set the crossover itself. A lot of people have not been happy with the results and then set a crossover in the deck at an appropriate frequency prior to running Imprint. I use 80hz, but I am running non-automotive mids. In this case there is no need to use the crossovers in the amps at all.
> 
> Are you only using two channels of the fullrange amp, or do you have it bridged?
> 
> If you are running active, things are different. Then you need to set a highpass at the amp or use a protection capacitor for the tweets or they could get fried.


I think im a little confused..
I am using the passive crossovers that came with each door speaker on its wiring harness.
The two channel sub amp is set to low pass, bridge, and the subs are wired in parallel.
The 4ch mids and highs amp is using all 4 channels and for the moment the filter is set to full instead of high pass.

Am i right that low, high and full pass are the same as crossovers or is that the wrong term? How do I tell if the ones built into the amp are active or passive?

So that being said, what do you think I should set the high/low pass filters to or am I missing something still?

Thanks for your time!!


----------



## 86mr2

You are using the passive crossovers with the fullrange speakers so your tweeters are protected. 

The switch on the bottom of your 9887 should be set to the 2way + sub position.

The filters (crossovers) in both your amps should be set to "Full". The Imprint will set the crossover between your subs and your fullrange speakers. 

I assume "The 4ch mids and highs amp is using all 4 channels and for the moment the filter is set to full instead of high pass." means the 4 channel amp is bridged to two channels?


----------



## meridianblade

the only amp bridged is the 2ch for the subs, each channel is being used on the 700w 4ch for each door speakers so nothing special there.

I ran the imprint with both set on full and the mids and highs are perfect, there's like no bass though and I turned it down to almost 1/8th on the gain. I'm gonna try and turn the subs almost off and see if I can boost the bass... 

I turned the bass on on the deck and it seems like the mids are clipping a bit at high volume, I think having them on full is feeding frequences that are to low..


----------



## 86mr2

This thread is full of hints on how to address the bass issues. You did turn the sub amp gain up again after the Imprint run? Mine is set at roughly half or a little below.

If you want to set your own crossover for the subs to the fullrangers you can do it at the deck and Imprint will respect the settings the next time you run it. I'm guessing however, the gains are set too high on your amp for the door speakers. That would explain the clipping.

Another thread of collected hints(many from this thread)


----------



## awsmori

Can anyone please help me, i cannot get my Alpine Sound Manager to work, i have tried all the tips that were stated at page 5 of this topic please help

Here is what i have done...
- I have installed the software and even the setup_USB.exe. 
- The mic and usb cable is all plugged in
- My car's ignition is at ON
- The radio is turned on and displays a message of "MultiEQ Do no press key" on the screen
- I have windows XP SP2 installed on the laptop, even did a fresh install of it
- Installed .NET 1.1 framework
- Even saw the "New Hardware found" message on the bottom when i plugged in the USB

....but for some reason, whenever i load the ALpine Sound Manager i doesnt pull through and gets a "connection error" message. I am from the PHilippines so calling alpine's 1800 is not an option.. Please anyone who can help me here would be greatly appreciated please


----------



## awsmori

^^ sorry double post


----------



## 1hawaii50

awsmori said:


> Can anyone please help me, i cannot get my Alpine Sound Manager to work, i have tried all the tips that were stated at page 5 of this topic please help
> 
> Here is what i have done...
> - I have installed the software and even the setup_USB.exe.
> - The mic and usb cable is all plugged in
> - My car's ignition is at ON
> - The radio is turned on and displays a message of "MultiEQ Do no press key" on the screen
> - I have windows XP SP2 installed on the laptop, even did a fresh install of it
> - Installed .NET 1.1 framework
> - Even saw the "New Hardware found" message on the bottom when i plugged in the USB
> 
> ....but for some reason, whenever i load the ALpine Sound Manager i doesnt pull through and gets a "connection error" message. I am from the PHilippines so calling alpine's 1800 is not an option.. Please anyone who can help me here would be greatly appreciated please


How can the car radio be turned on when you're running Imprint? You have to remove the faceplate to plug in the USB cable.


----------



## awsmori

1hawaii50 said:


> How can the car radio be turned on when you're running Imprint? You have to remove the faceplate to plug in the USB cable.


oops sorry about that sir, i'm using the IDA-X100 headunit. I apologize for posting my troubles here at the 9887 topic. I'm just desperate to find a solution...my bad


----------



## AWC

tspence73 said:


> Well,
> 
> In my opinion, this would have been a lot better if they utilized a binaural microphone system like the upcoming JBL processor. My second complaint is even needing an outboard box at all. They should have made the headunit so you can connect it to a laptop via USB and then sold the software for the computer and the binaural microphone. That would have been a better way to design the whole system.
> 
> 1. Headunit
> 2. Mic and software in one package.
> 3. Install software on your laptop.
> 4. Allow for re-drawing or changing the linear reference curve after tuning to meet listener taste.
> 5. Multiple preset curves because no two recordings are made the same.
> 
> The MS-8 from JBL may not be giving the ideal option of having a headunit be all you need, but at least they give the listener the option to really alter the reference curve for their own personal taste.
> 
> Now you may ask, "Why is the ability to change the reference range important? Shouldn't a flat response sound perfect?". Most people make a pretty bad assumption that tuning a car to a flat frequency response will make their favorite music sound more real. They are wrong as hell.
> 
> Let's all look at the best possible scenario. You tune your car flat as can be. What do you now need in order to have perfectly accurate reproduction? Well, you need a source recording that was engineered to playback on a flat response system. Uh oh. Problem. The fantasy is over. MOST if not all popular recordings on the market are NOT recorded, mixed & mastered for a flat tuned audio system.
> 
> The reality of the recording industry. The recording industry is in the business of selling as many albums as possible. The entire business model has been carefully designed in the music industry. All the way down to the method of studio recording, mixing and mastering. The music industry mandates to it's engineers to make the signal as "hot" as possible and to make sure that the product can sound good on anything, even a small pathetic radio.
> 
> So, what happens when your car is now tuned flat and you playback the CD on your system? You hear something that is FAR from real. Vocals will sound 'wrong', bass will be 'weak', drums don't sound like real drums, ambience sounds harsh and fake, cymbals and shakers sound irritating. In short, modern pop and rock recordings will sound phony on a flat tuned system.
> 
> I would argue that the flat tuned system lacks bass so badly that even classical recordings made on a soundstage and mastered for flat-response playback still lack a certain mid-bass and deep bass character that you hear in real-life sounds. I think it's most likely that the microphones used to capture the sound don't pick up frequencies like your ears do. Some things get lost in the translation and anyone who is being honest can hear it. When accuracy is the goal, it's almost always falling short of the way the real thing sounds.
> 
> IMO, the very best recordings I've ever heard are recordings of stage musicals. Something about the microphones used in those recordings sound more 'real' to me. With a flat response playback those recordings actually sound really good because there is a realism to even the bass sounds of footsteps on the stage and the orchestra sound really good too.
> 
> Anyway, that's my 2 cents. These processors are NOT going to deliver you truly accurate sound. It's up to you to find that with additional adjustments. I believe the processor can give you a really good starting point to begin adjustments though.


hey bob, this is the 9887 thread which...doesn't have an outboard processor as you...just plug it into the h/u. good idea, though.

secondly, you think they should have come up with something that hasn't actually been made yet to compete with something that hadn't been thought of yet ....I think we all think that. Then they should sell it seperately...? I'm curious how the words come from your brain and land on the screen, VIA your fingertips,having traveled through miles of nerve connections without having ever been processed by any logic centers anywhere in your frontal lobe. It amazes me, really, it is where the language section resides, after all. It is apparent that VBA has jostled vital connections somewhere.

In truth, in response to the linear response tib-dits, since we are tuning with software that doesn't exist, I prefer the inner-aural device that Denon should be making. This device is actually bio-mechanic. It is contained in a small mister spray (like breath spray) and you squirt the left canister in your left ear, then the right in your right ear. It takes around one week for the mech-crobe to attach to your aural nerve (which I may or may not have invented) then heal over the unit except for the exposed sensor strands which measure the response of YOUR ears' perception to the music. This is by far the greatest tool never created There will (soon) be an anal Ipod dock released by Shure in conjuntion with an (as of yet not released) merger with the not yet formed KY Audio Developement, Inc....I'm really looking forward to it, unfortunately, I like ALOT of gigs so, you know....



awsmori said:


> oops sorry about that sir, i'm using the IDA-X100 headunit. I apologize for posting my troubles here at the 9887 topic. I'm just desperate to find a solution...my bad


Make sure to try all the basics like restarting the computer, unplugging things and starting over. Ensuring you followed all the directions and so on and so forth. I sent the link to a known good copy of software for the 9887 system but I believe someone has gotten it to work for their 9886 so it mustn't be unit specific, who knows?...


----------



## awsmori

stilll to no avail, still get the "communication error" going arrrrrrgggghhh


----------



## matt62485

awsmori said:


> stilll to no avail, still get the "communication error" going arrrrrrgggghhh


theres a patch you need to download to updated your USB port or something... i kept getting the same message, and read up and downloaded some update and it ran fine afterwards. try using a different port on the computer? if that doesnt work, then research for the download, it automatically came up for me, but who knows.


----------



## awsmori

matt62485 said:


> theres a patch you need to download to updated your USB port or something... i kept getting the same message, and read up and downloaded some update and it ran fine afterwards. try using a different port on the computer? if that doesnt work, then research for the download, it automatically came up for me, but who knows.


What kinD of Patch? for the Alpine or for my laptop?


----------



## zerodb

awsmori said:


> What kinD of Patch? for the Alpine or for my laptop?



I also am interested in the answer to this question. I've had the same problem with both of my laptops not connecting.


----------



## jfokkema

Has anyone experimented with altering the files in the customer results folder yet? 

I can imagine it should be possible to send an altered .xml file to the flash memory of the HU...

Greets


----------



## chrisedtl

Try switching the AiNet port that you are using on the Imprint Module. Everything that I have seen is if you get the port error, it is not recognizing the Imprint Mod, and if you get the communication error, it is not hooked up to the Head unit correctly. Hope this helps.


----------



## awsmori

chrisedtl said:


> Try switching the AiNet port that you are using on the Imprint Module. Everything that I have seen is if you get the port error, it is not recognizing the Imprint Mod, and if you get the communication error, it is not hooked up to the Head unit correctly. Hope this helps.


by switching the port, you mean just removing and inserting back in?


----------



## chrisedtl

No, on the module itself there should be a AiNet pass through, so there are 2 ports that look identical. I am just suggesting to try the other one.


----------



## 86mr2

What does this have to do with the 9887?


----------



## fonzie

Think I'm gonna smash my imprint module into pieces, rip out my stupid focal speakers and buy me a decent headphone!

Seriously, I must admit it produces a sound that i've never heard before  .
Shouldn't it try to make my car sound like things I *allready* heard in the hifi world ? I'm really no music freak, but I seem to be able to hear my speakers sound hollow. Maybe due to my focals(165V1). Don't think I like focal either or I am the "lucky" owner of a Chinese crappy copy. Didn't listen to the focals in advance (my bad!, how dumb can u be?), just trusted on the sellers 20+ years of experience and hearing good things about Focal.
I'll post my findings when I have had more time to experiment al little more, if there is still anyone interested that is.
Don't have the 9887, but the 9884. The rest seems to be similar.

If you have to run the calibration over and over and over again just to get it al little better I think it's rather safe to say it's no callibration at all and imprint has failed.


----------



## 86mr2

Have you found the hints and tips thread and tried the tips?

Imprint hints and Tips

I had mixed results to begin with. One particularly bad run, the results sounded pretty much like a cheap factory FM radio. I'm sure it was some mistake on my part.

Now, however, I think the results are damn near magical. 

Consistent mic placement is KEY! The ability to turn down the tweeter level after imprint can be nice. That might be important with brighter components - like Focal. In my car, taking measurements on the front of the seat seems to hurt bass. Turning down the sub level before running Imprint helps bass.


----------



## fonzie

Yes I've read almost everything.
I had the bass problem solved at the second run and I was warned in advance.
There are still some things I'd like to test, but at the moment I'm still little sick and it's freezing outside.
My version of imprint sound manager is 2.10. So I hope they solved the 3 way setup as that is the thing I wanted to test yet.
I'm also gonna test imprint with Canton cd10 sattelites to see if I like what it does with speakers I enjoy listening to.


----------



## bigrig

Well, I finally got around to using Imprint on my 9887 and it didn't work right...the front speakers don't work! Hopefully you guys can help me figure this out.

Here's the facts:

I used the Imprint 2.10 software
6.5" Mid/Tweet up front with passive crossover fed by Eclipse 60Wx2
4" rear fill fed by the head unit
12" sub fed by Kenwood 600W

I didn't mess with the gains/crossover on the amps...just set the sub level to 0 prior. I used 5 positions, just moving the mic around the front seat.

Should I hear anything besides chirps? I heard those clearly from all the speakers. I uploaded 2 curves into the headunit, but MultEQ button on the HU only gave me On/Off. And there's no sound from the fronts! Just a little bass from the mids. My tweets are in the factory pillar spot and point straight into the dash, so I could maybe see it not detecting them...but there's not even any mid-range coming from the 6.5"s.

Thanks, 
Matt


----------



## 86mr2

fonzie said:


> My version of imprint sound manager is 2.10. So I hope they solved the 3 way setup as that is the thing I wanted to test yet.


I have been using Imprint 1.1 with my three way. What are you hoping will be different about 2.10?


----------



## 86mr2

bigrig said:


> I didn't mess with the gains/crossover on the amps...just set the sub level to 0 prior.


I have taken to setting the sub level on the deck to 15. Honestly I do not know if it even makes a difference. You *should *set the gain down on the sub amp. 



bigrig said:


> I used 5 positions, just moving the mic around the front seat.


 Supposedly the back seat position is important for getting the cabin response measured properly.



bigrig said:


> Should I hear anything besides chirps?


No. Chirps is all I can hear from outside the car.



bigrig said:


> I uploaded 2 curves into the headunit, but MultEQ button on the HU only gave me On/Off.


You have to hold the button down for 2 seconds to get it to switch curves.



bigrig said:


> And there's no sound from the fronts! Just a little bass from the mids.


 Is it possible you have the front and sub connections reversed? The chirps are full range so it sounds like the fronts are working right when tested, but afterwards, the deck treats them like crummy subs.


----------



## bigrig

> I have taken to setting the sub level on the deck to 15. Honestly I do not know if it even makes a difference. You *should *set the gain down on the sub amp.


Gain down? I know the manual says to set the gain around 50% - but I think I'm lower than that already! I'd have to check again.



> Supposedly the back seat position is important for getting the cabin response measured properly.


Aha. I was going off this post - Alpine CDA-9887 Imprint - Crutchfield Community 

But now I realize this is just referring to measurements 1,4,5,6. I will move the mic to the back and passenger seats next time.



> Is it possible you have the front and sub connections reversed? The chirps are full range so it sounds like the fronts are working right when tested, but afterwards, the deck treats them like crummy subs.


No, I don't think so... I mean, when the Imprint S/W showed LF and RF being tested, I heard the chirps coming from them. I'm thinking maybe the 2.10 software may not be right for me? I just used it thinking it would be the latest and greatest. 

Thanks for your help! I will report back after more fiddling.

Matt


----------



## 86mr2

I once had it decide one of my tweeters was a sub. I assume it was actually a bug, as it never happened again.

I assume you have the switch on the bottom of the deck in the correct position?


----------



## 86mr2

I once had it decide one of my tweeters was a sub. I assume it was actually a bug, as it never happened again.

I assume you have the switch on the bottom of the deck in the correct position?


----------



## bigrig

Alright, I tried it a couple more times. I turned the gain up on the front speaker amp to 1/2, it was about at 1/3. Sub amp gain is ~ 1/2. Also I moved the mic to the rear and passenger seats this time.

Ran Imprint 2.10 software, and again the fronts don't work.

Tried it again with the Imprint 1.11 that came with the unit. I only tested 4 locations because my battery was getting low. And - it worked! For a minute. Turned it on and it sounded pretty good. I could definitely tell the difference between On/Off. And then I switched it to Curve 2 (Ref + Mid Comp), and the front speakers were gone! And then I switched back to Curve 1 (Reference), and they didn't come back! Aaargh.


----------



## 86mr2

If you turn Imprint off the fronts come back?


----------



## fonzie

86mr2 said:


> I have been using Imprint 1.1 with my three way. What are you hoping will be different about 2.10?


I've read here something about the 3-way setup not working correct.
My tweets are in the dash and mids in the doors.
Imprint really didn't do a great job, always using front-rear-sub (2-way), tried everything.
So now I wanna try the 3-way.

What a HUGE difference! Imprint really does a great job this way. You actually can't tell there is sound comming from the doors (but there really is, you can only tell by moving your head closer to the door speakers), everything comes from the front, nice.
My opinion is when you got your tweets in the dash, you REALLY NEED to use the 3-way setup, 2way wil never work properly.
Believe me, I tried almost everything using the 2-way setup, the sound was never even close to this.
Probably imprint can't mesure by itself where the tweets are exactly unless you tell it.
I just left the passive filter for the tweets, just to be safe at all times.
The only thing bothering me yet is the sound of the Focals.
I just don't like how they sound.

Here is how I did it:

-reset the HU.
-Set the gain of the tweets and mids in the middle position.
-On the passive filter set the tweets gain on +3db (-3/0/+3).
-The sub gain all the way down.
-Take the headrests off.
-Run the imprint software and shose reference.

Then subgain all the way up, tweets gain on passive filter to 0db.
Done!

Before there was always a HUGE difference between reference, mid compensation and linear, but nothing sounded good.
Now there is only verry little difference and the result is great.

I also did the test with my sattelites (Canton CD10) still in 2-way mode.
The result was also verry good and also verry little difference between the 3 curves.

Maybe it's safe to say that if you hear a huge difference between the 3 curves, you are doing something wrong.


----------



## bigrig

86mr2 said:


> If you turn Imprint off the fronts come back?


Yep.


----------



## FSUnoles

testing:









getting good results but still minus one sub


----------



## bigrig

Well I went through the whole thing again. Had to buy a battery charger. :laugh:

Uploaded two curves, and the front speakers don't work. :furious:

I still had the Imprint software up, so I hooked up to the head unit again and uploaded just one curve. It works! I tried each curve, I think I like Reference the best. I can definitely tell the imaging is better. Bass is fine, although if I put my head all the back on my headrest it drops off.

So I think the battle is over and I have emerged victorious! Thanks for your help.

Matt


----------



## bigrig

For the record, here's the Before/After curves for my car.


----------



## fonzie

I don't see much high frequencies there.
Are your tweets working at all?


----------



## bigrig

fonzie said:


> I don't see much high frequencies there.
> Are your tweets working at all?


Yeah, I noticed that, too. The tweets are working...but they are Infinity silk domes, pretty mellow. And then I put them in the factory door location by the side mirror, and they point right into the dash. I'd like to put some Seas or something in the A-pillar where it meets the dash...but haven't gotten motivated enough. 

I noticed the frequency curve in the original post also dips down in the higher frequencies (though not as much as mine), are there any other before/after curves that have been posted?

Matt


----------



## xlynoz

bigrig said:


> For the record, here's the Before/After curves for my car.


Just in case you aren't aware that is an "estimate" curve of what Imprint is expecting to achieve. It should be close but there is no certainty that is what you will end up with. The only way to really know is to measure it with an RTA. I wish I had the Imprint curves from when I was using it. I can definitely say in my case the curve the Imprint software displayed did not match the RTA and in some areas was way off (like 5 - 6dB).


----------



## fonzie

Here are some older curves from when I used front/rear/sub.
















My current curves look more flat, but I forgot to save.
But I don't think because your curve looks bad, the sound will be bad.
If I see my current curve, it looks rather flat, but the sound is not good yet. Sound reproduction is a verry complicated operation and only with mesuring the sound level isn't going to tell you if the sound is good.
You can only see if all frequencies are there.


----------



## hoghavemercy

I have the 9887 and PDX-5 and no Imprint whatsoever and I like the sound, perfect balance, why mess something when you got a good thing going.The Imprint should be included with the radio not a "bloatware", You only set it once anyway. Some are renting like Crutchfield for $50.00. Alpine is taking the Apple route like Ipod wont work unless you use their software, proprietary format. :behead:


----------



## 86mr2

This is a 9887 _with_ Imprint thread. You have never used Imprint and have, therefore, added no value. Thank you for contributing.


----------



## hoghavemercy

86mr2 said:


> This is a 9887 _with_ Imprint thread. You have never used Imprint and have, therefore, added no value. Thank you for contributing.


Don't feel too bad because you bought one, instead of just renting it,lol!!


----------



## Q-Authority

86mr2 said:


> This is a 9887 _with_ Imprint thread. You have never used Imprint and have, therefore, added no value. Thank you for contributing.


I certainly agree with that!!
:bash::smash::shout::rifle:oke::argue::whip::z:


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## hoghavemercy

Q-Authority said:


> I certainly agree with that!!
> :bash::smash::shout::rifle:oke::argue::whip::z:


Awww!! Ain't that cute!! Did I hurt your boyfriends feelings?


----------



## Q-Authority

Hey Hogzilla, just becaue you can't understand its usefullness, doesn't mean it's not benificial! I've been an Audyssey (home version of Imprint) user since it was first available, and I know from hands on experience it can easily outperform non-Audyssey systems when set up properly.
So go flaunt your cherished ignorance to those you are senile enough to appreciate it.


----------



## 86mr2

I actually am very happy I bought the Imprint kit. I knew I would be changing my system a lot over about 6 months. The set it once thing is really a fantasy anyway unless one can find an experienced and savvy installer using it.

Congratulations on post #4 hoghavemercy. Glad we could aid you in your initial forays into post-whoring. You might want to hook up with tspence73, I think you guys could have many informative and constructive discussions. For myself, you are entry number 4 on my iggy list. Thanks for playing.


----------



## matt62485

hoghavemercy said:


> I have the 9887 and PDX-5 and no Imprint whatsoever and I like the sound, perfect balance, why mess something when you got a good thing going.The Imprint should be included with the radio not a "bloatware", You only set it once anyway. Some are renting like Crutchfield for $50.00. Alpine is taking the Apple route like Ipod wont work unless you use their software, proprietary format. :behead:


thats your setup. whose to say someone elses setup didnt benefit greatly from the unit? whos also to say, you may have "settled" with yours and arent as nit picky. or, whos to say your tuning capabilities arent better than most people can tune by ear and can get your desired sound without the kit?

for you, it may be ok to go without the unit. ive used one for free from my local shop and my ears didnt agree with the sound at all. ima try again now i got a new amp though. 

just saying... no need to say not to mess with something just bc u dont feel the need to on ur system... everyones is different and im sure many have benefited from it. i havent, but i dont bash it bc it could be user error or something.


----------



## Q-Authority

As 86mr2 and matt62485 stated Imprint may not be the easiest thing to work with, but tuning a sytem properly without is not always that easy either, and it took many years of experimentation with better and better equipment to get to where car hifi was before Imprint came along. So criticizing it without at least first being familiar with it and its capabilities is out of place.
Alpine's only real issue with it is that they often make things like Imprint sound simple and foolproof, in order to increase sales. Foolproof and simple it is not, but if one has the time and is willing to experiment with it it can be quite useful. But then, because of the nature of car audio and the way many car audio buffs prefer their music a lot of people may not enjoy what technically might be excellent results with the software. Everyone to their own preferences.


----------



## hoghavemercy

Q-Authority said:


> Hey Hogzilla, just becaue you can't understand its usefullness, doesn't mean it's not benificial! I've been an Audyssey (home version of Imprint) user since it was first available, and I know from hands on experience it can easily outperform non-Audyssey systems when set up properly.
> So go flaunt your cherished ignorance to those you are senile enough to appreciate it.


Now I'm flaunting? dude. don't flatter yourself,It's good that Audyssey has customers like you, senile enough to get nickled and dimed. Since your loyal enough, I'll have a statue made for you in Venice Beach so the hobos could piss on.:laugh:oke:oke::biggrinflip::lol:


----------



## AWC

hoghavemercy said:


> Now I'm flaunting? dude. don't flatter yourself,It's good that Audyssey has customers like you, senile enough to get nickled and dimed. Since your loyal enough, I'll have a statue made for you in Venice Beach so the hobos could piss on.:laugh:oke:oke::biggrinflip::lol:


What is the point in this type of behavior? Are you aware of the acoustical challenges in a car? It is nice that you have found immediate satisfaction your system's performance. I am happy to use the Imprint system on the 9887 (hence my subscription to this thread) but wish that mine would satsify me, like yours does for you, without further modification. Perhaps it is in the install...


----------



## MIAaron

I've heard of a few people having hiss issues with the h100 imprint unit. Are any of you using the 100eq having hiss issues?

Thx


----------



## AWC

that wouldn't be used on a 9887. that is the external peice for all other imprint ready decks


----------



## MIAaron

I know the 9887 doesn't use the H100, that's why I'm curious if those using the 100eq(the 9887 imprint processor) are having hiss issues as well.


----------



## AWC

MIAaron said:


> I know the 9887 doesn't use the H100, that's why I'm curious if those using the 100eq(the 9887 imprint processor) are having hiss issues as well.


Gotcha. You know the H100 is only plugged in during the sweeps. Once imprint is ran, it is unplugged and the same RCA's carry the signal as opposed to an external processor which would have the AiNet carrying the signal. 

So I haven't noticed any hiss at all. I have a slight engine whine but it has always been there...no matter what....I can't seem to wish it away....but that's the thrid deck with the same engine whine so...to hell with it.


----------



## 86mr2

I have confirmed the noise floor is slightly higher with Imprint on than with it off. That was using the S/N tracks on the IASCA setup disk. Not enough to matter in normal listening though. 

I think that what people tend to be complaining about is that the EQ applied by Imprint and the hot tweeter levels it sets can bring tape hiss that was always there more forward. Spectacularly so sometimes. Since I back off my tweeter levels after a run, the effect is not objectionable in my case. Besides, if the hiss is there in the master, it's there - I'm not offended by hearing it.

Why the tweeter levels are so high is another question. I am glad I'm running active. If I were running passive, I'd be going crazy building and testing L-pads.


----------



## 86mr2

Oh, and zero alternator whine in my case.


----------



## MIAaron

AWC,
Thanks, which headunits are you running?

86mr2,
So it's your opinion that the hiss people are talking about is tweet levels, not noise?

I'm going back and forth here. I want to try the x100/x305 but if the H100 is noisy I would just go with the 9887/100eq setup. I guess I'll just have to take the plunge and hope for the best.


----------



## 86mr2

MIAaron said:


> 86mr2,
> So it's your opinion that the hiss people are talking about is tweet levels, not noise?


I do not have any experience with the H100, so I am opining based on my observations with the 9887. My opinion in the 9887 case is that the hiss people complain about is tape hiss in the music source. 

Imprint pushes the tweeter levels too high, leading to the complaints about harshness and fatiguing sound. This makes the hiss "pop" put of the mix, and people are interpreting it as system noise. I'm guessing brighter component sets may make the effect more pronounced, and harder to counter. 

In my case, I am pretty sure I am backing down tweeter levels 3-6 dB from what Imprint sets to get rid of harshness. After this, the only time I notice hiss is on old sources with very low recording levels. This hiss I hear in these cases is obviously tape hiss.


----------



## bsdarwin

My imprint does not sound so good, during the imprint the SUBs does not produce any sound. SUB is connected to a separate Amp, while the front/rear to 2 channel AMP.
I am not sure what the HU is set to 2 or 3 way. I have sony Xplod as my AMPs. Not sure how to decrease the gain on them. sound is ok same as with out the multiq enabled. Please advice to get the best IMPRINT experience as you all are experiencing .
I need something to drive with a smile ON


----------



## 86mr2

It is rather difficult to lead you through the process at this distance, particularly if you do not know how the headunit switch is set, or how to adjust gains on your amp.

There are many Imprint threads and posts on this forum leading folks through essentally the same issues. Here is a link to a good starting point. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-tutorials/50129-imprint-tuning-hints-tips.html

I would suggest you and perhaps your installer go through the existing information, and try tuning again.


----------



## MIAaron

bsdarwin,
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-tutorials/50129-imprint-tuning-hints-tips.html


86mr2,
Thanks I guess I'll give it a try. I've been wondering if some of the hiss has been due to poor gain structure, but if it's tape hiss then I don't care.

Thanks.


----------



## fonzie

@MIAaron.
No hiss problems here. Or maybe you mean noise ?
I noticed that there is some noise when it's silent (between tracks). But then, it's never quiet in your car when driving. You can only hear it parked in your garage and the engine not running.
@AWE,
Check your groundings and be sure to use quality RCA cables.
@bsdarwin,
You got to be sure, how else are you gonna make things work ?
2 way mode = front full range + rear full range + subs
3 way mode = dash tweets + front mids + subs


----------



## zerodb

hoghavemercy said:


> I have the 9887 and PDX-5 and no Imprint whatsoever and I like the sound, perfect balance, why mess something when you got a good thing going.The Imprint should be included with the radio not a "bloatware", You only set it once anyway. Some are renting like Crutchfield for $50.00. Alpine is taking the Apple route like Ipod wont work unless you use their software, proprietary format. :behead:



So you see no need for Imprint, but you feel that it should be included with every head unit, which would require everyone who bought one to pay the price of the included microphone and licensing the Audessey software.

Since you don't think it's needed, shouldn't you be grateful that Alpine didn't make you pay for it?

Sorry, I know this is a review thread, I'll stop.


----------



## bsdarwin

Thanks 86mr2,MIAaron,fonzie
I figured that my HU is set to 3way, the installer did install front full range + rear full range + subs. I ran the IMPRINT again yesterday But the strange part is that the SUB's never get tested. IMPRINT just ignores them, i could tell coz after the rear test just jumps to the next measuring point. tried both softwares 1.1 and 2.1. All help is welcomed


----------



## 86mr2

Some suggestions:

You could try turning the gain up on the sub amp. 
Your H/U should be set for 2-way, not 3-way. 
Turn up the sub level in the h/u before running imprint. 
Call Alpine support


----------



## bsdarwin

Dude, where do i change that from, is it on the menu or a switch under the HU.


----------



## bsdarwin

Dude, where do i change that from, is it on the menu or a switch under the HU.


----------



## Jopop

Jumper switch under HU.


----------



## matt62485

so i did a run today since i got the new amp, subs and aimed the tweets. i use the kit for free from local dealer since i got the 9887 from him

heres what it came out. only did the one measurement for drivers seat, ima run more later.

looks pretty damn rough to me. even though its not right on, its a "close" guess for the system... still, thats pretty big dips i got going on. but it sounds better with the imprint ill say.


----------



## AWC

86mr2 said:


> I do not have any experience with the H100, so I am opining based on my observations with the 9887. My opinion in the 9887 case is that the hiss people complain about is tape hiss in the music source.
> 
> Imprint pushes the tweeter levels too high, leading to the complaints about harshness and fatiguing sound. This makes the hiss "pop" put of the mix, and people are interpreting it as system noise. I'm guessing brighter component sets may make the effect more pronounced, and harder to counter.
> 
> In my case, I am pretty sure I am backing down tweeter levels 3-6 dB from what Imprint sets to get rid of harshness. After this, the only time I notice hiss is on old sources with very low recording levels. This hiss I hear in these cases is obviously tape hiss.


Holy **** there is a hiss, not tape either, hit pause with a cd in. Hit MultiQ on, then off. It is fairly big with my set-up. If it were tape hiss, then it would be on some songs and in between tracks it would go away.



fonzie said:


> @MIAaron.
> No hiss problems here. Or maybe you mean noise ?
> I noticed that there is some noise when it's silent (between tracks). But then, it's never quiet in your car when driving. You can only hear it parked in your garage and the engine not running.
> @AWE,
> Check your groundings and be sure to use quality RCA cables.
> @bsdarwin,
> You got to be sure, how else are you gonna make things work ?
> 2 way mode = front full range + rear full range + subs
> 3 way mode = dash tweets + front mids + subs



grounds are good..its an audi, built of arian blood. there are israeli speakers...the car is fighting back...


----------



## 86mr2

AWC said:


> Holy **** there is a hiss, not tape either, hit pause with a cd in. Hit MultiQ on, then off. It is fairly big with my set-up.


Just ran this test today. Total silence with MultiEQ on and off. This is what I expected since the deck, as I understand it, mutes the outputs between tracks, when paused, when playing 0 bit tracks, etc. I remember early purchasers of the deck complaining about hiss, but I have never encountered it myself. Maybe Alpine changed something in later production? My deck is nine months or so old.

The only time I have encountered the noise floor of the deck was while trying the IASCA setup disk, I could hear more noise on the -60 and -75 db track with MultiEQ engaged. 



AWC said:


> If it were tape hiss, then it would be on some songs and in between tracks it would go away.


Yep, that is what happens for me.


----------



## AWC

86mr2 said:


> Just ran this test today. Total silence with MultiEQ on and off. This is what I expected since the deck, as I understand it, mutes the outputs between tracks, when paused, when playing 0 bit tracks, etc. I remember early purchasers of the deck complaining about hiss, but I have never encountered it myself. Maybe Alpine changed something in later production? My deck is nine months or so old.
> 
> The only time I have encountered the noise floor of the deck was while trying the IASCA setup disk, I could hear more noise on the -60 and -75 db track with MultiEQ engaged.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, that is what happens for me.


mine is constant. I can pause a disc or have a disc out, so long as the preamps are on (read: not on volume 0) I hear the hiss at around 20 (which would be extremely loud). Frankly, the 9887's preamps suck. There is no oomph to them, so the gains have to compensate for them. I'm really getting fairly tired of the 9887. Considering the amount of noise the Audyssey adds, I can't see the benefits of spending the same amount of money (or going to DIYMA) as you could having it put on an RTA. If you weren't going for the DIYMA method, that is. I reaaly want to consider RTA'in my system using my recording equipment (firewire and condensors) and comparing an actual difference using just the 9887's controls. 

There is alot more power without MultiQ, it seems. Is that just me? So...if headroom is important to the SQ of the system (note the correct usage of that acronym for once) then the goal may change. 

My goal is to build a couple curves using the active crossover and the decks 3-way active, to tune a 4-way system....DUH DUH DUUUUUHHHH!
My thoughts are, why not run both, give the whole shooting match a try. I have the computer, the programs, except an RTA but they're free, and do this ****. I want to put this MultiQ bidness to the test. I want to see that "estimate" with a screen shot of the "real". Mind you, most of this is talk and I may never get around to it.


----------



## matt62485

for some reason. i find no matter what i do... the stage height drops a good 6 inches with the multiEQ on. its also more full sound, but not in a good way, its almost tiring to listen to, the vocals seemed muffled and over powered by the midbass. while the reference curve sounds slightly better, its still not a WOW this sounds awesome. the main thing that gets at me is the stage... it just doesnt seem right to me... and ive ran it several times using different mic positions and using all 5 positions. i actually found the stage was better and the music sounded better only using the first position on the front left setting.

sadly, im dissappointed. i think i can do better myself with an RTA. i also find it funny that i can crank my tweeter gains where they are almost unbearable and the graph still shows them being attenuated compared to the rest of the system.

i also dont think something is working right with running an active 2 way front stage. 

i also noticed that on certain full vocal songs or strong piano it breaks up up top where as it does not with multeq off. i find my settings have a clear vocal focal point and the vocals sound more natural. the multeq definately offers a more full sound, but its too full imho... overwhelming. the bass with it on is ever so slightly more forward biased (i think its bc it EQd the mids in the doors to accomodate for more subbass) but its more boomy and sloppy than my settings. seems as though the e8's hit the seperate notes with more authority instead of the notes blending together and rolling into each other

oh well. i think ive gave up hope trying to get it to work.


----------



## matt62485

AWC said:


> There is alot more power without MultiQ, it seems. Is that just me? So...if headroom is important to the SQ of the system (note the correct usage of that acronym for once) then the goal may change.
> 
> My goal is to build a couple curves using the active crossover and the decks 3-way active, to tune a 4-way system....DUH DUH DUUUUUHHHH!
> My thoughts are, why not run both, give the whole shooting match a try. I have the computer, the programs, except an RTA but they're free, and do this ****. I want to put this MultiQ bidness to the test. I want to see that "estimate" with a screen shot of the "real". Mind you, most of this is talk and I may never get around to it.


the multq setting with my cadence amps were stupid attenuated compared to my settings, like i could full tilt the headunit and it not be even near loud enough to ride with the windows down even with the gains cranked beyond comfortable. with the kicker its pretty balanced, but i still feel something isnt right as stated above.

if the graph alpine shows is any where near accurate... i got some major ass issues in certain areas as u can see a few posts up. the fullness needs a happy medium. 

ill play with it once more this weekend, if i cant get decent results... i will truely not try again. i just need to invest in an RTA.


----------



## 86mr2

The gains issue I have seen myself. If I set up the gains without Imprint, I can get the output much louder. Once Imprinted, the max volume is quieter. 

There was a post or two much earlier in this thread (or another) addressing the issue but I cannot find it or remember the conclusions. I do not have an Oscilloscope, or I would look at the output of the 9887. I am sure that we are not seeing the 4 volt output when Imprinted. Maybe Imprint is backing down the overall levels to compensate for some humungous eq boost it is applying somewhere? 

My results with Imprint are basically the opposite of you guys. I find stage height and position better than I can do myself. Midrange clarity is startling. 

I must admit though, I have absolutley zero patience for manual tuning - ****ing with individual driver phase, peq and listening to test tracks ad infinitum. Letting the computer do the heavy lifting works for me.


----------



## 86mr2

matt62485 said:


> i just need to invest in an RTA.


I am using SynRTA for an RTA. It is a free download and has two features I really like. The pseudo-pink noise it uses (it will generate a file for you that you burn to a cd) makes the trace settle sooner, and the mult-curve feature is the easiest to use I have seen. I like it better than PocketRTA and TrueRTA now. I just use it with the Alpine mic.


----------



## matt62485

86mr2 said:


> I am using SynRTA for an RTA. It is a free download and has two features I really like. The pseudo-pink noise it uses (it will generate a file for you that you burn to a cd) makes the trace settle sooner, and the mult-curve feature is the easiest to use I have seen. I like it better than PocketRTA and TrueRTA now. I just use it with the Alpine mic.



hmm i got this thing for another week. just plug the mic into my laptop?  hmmmm

i likey this idea


----------



## AWC

Don't get me wrong, its great, I just wonder if its the best that this deck can do. The big pay-off being that you still have it when you want it. I just wonder how much better the deck can sound if any.


----------



## cheatz

Hi guys, after I have Imprint-ed the 9887, there seems to be a faint 'pop' when i turn on the HU. Is this normal?

Everything else is fine. Playing at high volumes doesnt have any weird sound.

Have to say that Imprint really raised the soundstage and improved the imaging for my system.


----------



## 86mr2

I haven't noticed any pop. The outputs are muted for a few seconds I think. Are you running external amps? The remote line is powered as soon as the deck is turned on (I can hear my amp relay click). If one of your amps has a pop you could be hearing it.


----------



## 1hawaii50

I've got my 9887 feeding a Kicker ZX600.4, and a Sony XM-1S and I don't get any turn on noises.


----------



## ccdoggy

There is a turn on pop if the amps are on before the headunit is turned on. as in if you are not using the remote line from the headunit then you will get the pop. 

I know this as my sub amp is connected to an accessory line that turns on with the car, the mid amp turns on from the remote line from the headunit. the pop comes from the sub amp when i have the headunit off and turn it on when the car is running. No biggie if the amps are connected to the headunit.


----------



## cheatz

Hi everyone,
Thanks for the inputs.

Im using a 4 channel amp, Alpine MRV F345 to drive a front component set and a subwoofer at the boot.

The faint pop happens on the component set when the HU is powered up. Have being using the HU for 6 month without Imprinting, and this does not happen. Only after imprinting does this happen. I will try to set imprint (multieq) to OFF and see whether it happens or not.

I will also check whether the amp is on before the HU is turned on. Previously I can confirm that the amp will come on only when the HU comes on. Maybe my installer fiddled with something that I do not know off. Will post my findings later

Thanks.


edit:

After checking this issue at my installer, it seems my current amp is causing it. A direct swap with another amp does not yield this 'pop' issue.


----------



## sotelomichael

solid replies in this thread, very helpful, thanks!


----------



## steelie4u

Hello all, this is my first post on here and I am kind of confused with all the reading, the following is my set-up and I have the Imprint system also but I am still confused as to mic placement positions and the manual for the imprint is kind of vague, I am trying to acheive the CLEAN sound not the earth shaking sound..lol

Vehicle is a 2008 Jeep Liberty

Head Unit- Alpine CDA9887
Front speakers- JL Audio VR-650CSI
Rear speakers- JL Audio VR-650CXI
Sub- JL Audio 12wv3
Sub amp- JL Audio 300/2 bridged amp
Seperate amp- JL Audio 300/4

vehicle has been dynamatted and all componets professionally installed, my problem is the installer is a very highly recongnized installer but does not have alot of experience with the imprint system, they set up system with there meters and it sounds good but i want to see what the imprint system would sound like, my concern is losing the low end bass from the sub which i have benn reading about, the manual says to take the mic readings from all seat positions? it also says set gains on amps at 1/2 and disable crossovers?
dont want to fry my system so is this safe? or should i try and find someone who has experience with the imprint? I like the idea of plugging it in and letting it loose and the unit does all the work but im not sure about the safety to my equipment. I am no audio freak but want CLEAN sound. I also hate the idea that it only works with XP and not Vista since all newer laptops are Vista, Thxs alot in advance


----------



## 86mr2

It works fine with Vista. 

Hints and tips collected here.

Hints and tips collected here.

It would appear you are using the passive crossovers with your speakers, so your equipment will be safe.


----------



## steelie4u

thxs alot , i wasnt sure if it was safe or not , glad to hear about Vista tho


----------



## steelie4u

86mr2 said:


> It works fine with Vista.
> 
> Hints and tips collected here.
> 
> Hints and tips collected here.
> 
> It would appear you are using the passive crossovers with your speakers, so your equipment will be safe.



I used the imprint today and did as you instructed in the hints and tips and it worked awesome, thxs alot.........................


----------



## avonvilla

I've read all this and i'm under the impression that you set the xover on the deck then imprint it, no matter what i seem to do the front speakers are always full range and as such i cant turn the thing up ! am i missing something ?

Thanks


----------



## avonvilla

avonvilla said:


> I've read all this and i'm under the impression that you set the xover on the deck then imprint it, no matter what i seem to do the front speakers are always full range and as such i cant turn the thing up ! am i missing something ?
> 
> Thanks


Seems it only pays any attention ( and even then only a bit ) if the units in 3 way mode


----------



## dough29

Hello !

I'm aving some problems with my configuration :

- Alpine CDA-9887r
- KTX-100EQ
- Switched on "3WAY"
- Genuine woofers are connected to the front line out
- Genuine tweeters are connected to the rear line out

When I'm doing the Imprint first pass, the system doesn't make any sound on the tweeters.

Those tweeters avec an in-line filtration (a small capacitor and a coil), is it a problem to get the Imprint system working ?

Thanks in advance !!


----------



## AWC

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio/57542-my-cda-9887-w-imprint-center.html

Just wanted to share my success with using the remaining sub output as a FULL RANGE CENTER SPEAKER OUTPUT!!! Imprint does all the work. Its the best thing I've done to my car stereo. I would like to get other's to verify my results (or see if I'm a whack-job) so give it a shot.


----------



## leogush

Hi,
I am from Brazil and I have a CDA-9887. I'm looking for the KTX-100EQ to buy here but I didn't find it. Also tried eBay but there's nobody selling this unit who shipps internationally. Do you guys know some store that could ship it?

Thanks,
Leo


----------



## bsdarwin

During the Imprint do we need to turn the Defeat Off, I still not getting it right. The front speakers are also playing the Bass. I have switch to 2-way from the HU. Right now the bass is high makes the glass rattle. I have followed all the steps, what settings needs to be done on HU.


----------



## AWC

bsdarwin said:


> During the Imprint do we need to turn the Defeat Off, I still not getting it right. The front speakers are also playing the Bass. I have switch to 2-way from the HU. Right now the bass is high makes the glass rattle. I have followed all the steps, what settings needs to be done on HU.


No for defeat.

The settings are all spelled out in this thread. Sorry its so long but its informative. 

Why wouldn't the front speakers play bass


----------



## bsdarwin

it should play, but not like sub's. The sound gets distorted. Anyway i think it could be becoz of the defeat being ON. The first imprint i did was with 3-way without defeat few months ago. it was nice. I will try this out today.


----------



## bigrig

*Not Again*

Well, I'm back. Imprint has beaten me.

Here's my setup:
6.5" Mid/Tweet up front with passive crossover fed by Eclipse 60Wx2
4" rear fill fed by the head unit
12" sub fed by Kenwood 600W

Previously when I ran Imprint my front speakers wouldn't work. Just a little bass. I managed to get it working by sending the MultEQ curve multiple times. Switching between curves would kill the front speakers. So, I just stuck with one curve. I could turn MultEQ on/off without losing the fronts.

So a while back my battery post came loose, and now the fronts are gone again. I've ran the measurements a couple times and uploaded the curves many many times, but I can't get the fronts to work this time. If I turn Defeat "ON" they work...but then it sounds the same as with MultEQ off. Also if I upload two curves I can't switch between them, where I could before.

Any ideas? Bad Imprint kit hardware or bad head unit? o:

Matt


----------



## 86mr2

I wonder if is a bad head unit or the kit hardware. Have you talked to Alpine tech support? Mine has never done what you describe.


----------



## dsg74

Man, I have a headache from reading this thread again. I have a quick question about Imprint. I'll be running the "high" output to a Kenwood KAC-X4R for my midrange and tweets. I need the highpass from the headunit to be in the 200 to 250Hz range, with a similar lowpass for the mid output, going to a second X4R bridged for the midbass. Is MultEQ capable of doing this?


----------



## 86mr2

The only crossover that Imprint is capable of setting automagically is between the subs and midbass, which you likely will want to manage yourself anyway. You set the midbass lowpass and the mid+tweet highpass manually before running Imprint. Imprint respects the settings.


----------



## 350zguy

Ive spent the last three hours reading this thread and about the last 2 weeks spending countless hours reading all sorts of info on Imprint. Im hoping 86mr2 and a few other know-it-alls will chime in here. 

I'm having the following installed in my 350z on Monday:

Alpine 9887 with Imprint(rented it from Crutchfield)
Fosgate Power 90x2 amp(older amp) for the front component speakers
Boston Acoustics SX60 component speakers up front.
No rear speakers
2 12" Infinity Kappy Subs powered by an older Fosgate 800x1 amp. 

The installer that is going to tune imprint is trained...whatever that means. What I do know is that the shop called me today and said I would have to change my install date because the guy that tunes Imprint is off on Monday(hes going to do that on tues.) and only a certified guy can tune with Imprint(at least at this shop, which I must say I like).

I've read so much crap my mind is twisted right now.

Few question I have right off the bat:

(I know an installer is going to do this and I hope he gets it right, but Im betting on no, sad isn't it? So I might do the tune myself if it ends up sounding like crap)

Does the HU need to be set to 2 way or 3 way and what exactly is the difference?

My car is only a 2 seater, there are no rear seats. Do you have to take measurements from the rear seats?

This whole active/passive crossover thing is mindboggling me. The components comes with crossovers as all components do(from my experience). I'm assuming they are passive? And therefore I should set the xover on the amp (for these speakers) to off or whatever is respective of "off" right?
What about the gain for front speakers?

Now on to the subs:

I have no idea if they are wired mono or stereo. Im assuming mono as Im also assuming the amp is therefore bridged correct? Its a 200x2 amp or 800x1. So Im assuming they bridged it(previous install, its already in the car) to 800x1 and that would mean the subs are mono correct?
Im planning on turning the gain down considerably on the sub amp and setting the crossover reasonably high, is this right?

Okay thats all I can really think of right now. Hopefully the installer gets it right, if not hopefully I can do it or it just sounds good w/o it. I really dont care as long as it sounds better than the crappy MTX's I have in there now( MTX components up front)

Thank you in advance, hopefully I can manage some helpful answers.


----------



## 350zguy

Well no one answered my question...lol... butttttttttt after getting my car back today from the installer I was somewhat satisfied with the sound. It actually sounded pretty good. The only problem I had was that the sound with multeq on and off was the same, I was driving myself crazy trying to figure it out. After a couple hours of dinking around I turned defeat OFF and went from there. Holy freakin MACRO it sounds incredible now. Insanely good. I'm almost positive when my installer tuned it he choose "front seats" as the "sweet spot." I actually don't know if I want to change it to the drivers spot or not. I kind of like knowing the person in the passengers seat is hearing things as well as I am. And if I had it tuned to the drivers seat it might sound like butt in the passengers seat ya think? Either way, sounds great now. 

Can someone here tell me what exactly DEFEAT ON and DEFEAT OFF are?


----------



## AWC

the answer is no, buddy. sorry. I dunno about anybody else but you are asking for a complete explanation of car audio. Its just not that simple. Spend some time reading.


defeat is when you "defeat" the DSP/EQ settings or disable them.


----------



## freesole

Got this deck installed in my Accord this week. Have to say, this is a HUGE upgrade on my stock H/U. I also got Polk MM6510's installed as well so I guess that helped too. I am hoping that with a new AMP and Sub installed that the system will really come together.


----------



## stebob

Man, I'm anxious to get one of the HU myself! Not too sure about the Imprint, but the 9887 has my name all over it!


----------



## kurtlou

I am totally confused.

I got Alpine CDA-105E and PXA-H100 in my Mazda6. When I bought it in China, the local Alpine tech support and authorized dealer told me that the IMPRINT can't run without SUB. I only have front and rear speakers but no sub. So they connect a sub in car and finish the measurement, then take sub away. The sound positioning is great but the bass is missing.

I asked Alpine UK and Australian tech support ( It's suck, in all alpine countires website, only UK and australia has email of tech support. I can't find any email address in Alpine US and Japan). They all told me that the IMPRINT CAN run without sub and has many live cases.

I do the test in my car (I borrow KTX-H100 from dealer), but failed when the software tests sub and shows error code:013 (means the MIC can't receive the sound) then interrrupted. All just the same as what China Alpine tech said.

I don't know if any one have the same issue here? Anyone can do the measurement without sub?

I'm wondering if the software sold in China is different? I can only said the software might be the problem since during the measurement only software is working. 

Can I download the IMPRINT sound manager of US or other region? Anyone could help to upload it?

many thanks! I just almost be crazy with this problem.


----------



## 86mr2

kurtlou said:


> Can I download the IMPRINT sound manager of US or other region? Anyone could help to upload it?


Hopefully this link still works

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio/51427-alpine-imprint-2-1-a.html#post631979


----------



## kurtlou

86mr2 said:


> Hopefully this link still works
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio/51427-alpine-imprint-2-1-a.html#post631979


no. these two are all gone. anyone can upload again?


----------



## bernardo

slimysenor said:


> i love my impint
> i love the fact that you can add imprint to any system
> i hate the fact that it takes out so much bass
> i hate the fact it costs extra compared to pioneer premier


 
pioneer premier uses imprint too??


----------



## 1hawaii50

bernardo said:


> pioneer premier uses imprint too??


They don't use "Imprint" per se', but they do have an INCLUDED microphone so that you can run the time alignment on the speakers.


----------



## Rebelde

I just got the ktx-100 today but I don't get the 9887 HU until Friday. I can't wait to try imprint sound manager.
In my setup I have alpine's spx-17pro comp speakers in the front and back with a rockford fosgate t600-4 amp. 
Hopefully the imprint will make my music sound better than it is now. I still don't have a sub, I wonder if that will have a negative impact on the sound?

I have tried to run the software on the computer without connecting it to anything but it says port error and shuts off. Hopefully it is normal and will work when I get the HU. The waiting is unbearable.


----------



## Rebelde

Does the sound manager software run on windows vista or only on xp. My old xp computer is broken and I only have a vista machine.


----------



## 86mr2

It runs on Vista.


----------



## Rebelde

I just recently installed the HU and tried to use the imprint kit ktx100eq but it keeps giving me a port error message. Does someone have a solution?


----------



## NYPigskin

Alpine Imprint KTX-100EQ does not run on Vista. You must have XP Service Pack 2 only. Your port error message could be a cable that is not pluged in all the way. On mine, the mic. plug snaped in. I had to push it in pretty hard. You should not see any of the metal part of the jack when it is completly in.


----------



## 86mr2

NYPigskin said:


> Alpine Imprint KTX-100EQ does not run on Vista. You must have XP Service Pack 2 only.


I have had no problem running it on Vista, the same holds true with others. 

Like you said, the cable may not be plugged in properly, or the USB driver was not installed correctly.


----------



## NYPigskin

I called Alpine tech support, and they told me that it would only run properly on XP Service Pack 2. Why would they say that if it works on Vista? It even says in the instructions to use XP. Maybe some of the problems others are having is due to the fact that they are not following instructions. Maybe it appears to be working but you're not getting all that you can out of this software? Hum. Damn instructions.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

They don't support the Vista platform, that's why. There's no reason to offer warranty or tech support on a platform the software wasn't designed to run on. Vista does have compatibility modes to run XP based software. The bigger issue is the the way XP and Vista page file systems function. They're entirely different. The only real difference between Win7 and Vista(for everyday consumers) is aesthetics. Even for geeks, under the hood they're pretty much the same. WinXP is NOT THE SAME under the hood. However, Alpine's products will still work on all 3 platforms.


----------



## NYPigskin

This annoys me because I had to beg borrow and steal to find a laptop that was running XP. Sometimes Alpine makes you scratch your head and say what the ****. But that's usually when it's about their prices.


----------



## phish368

Well, I finally had a chance to play with the imprint system this past weekend. Pretty interesting if you ask me. 

After reading other peoples recommendations, I bought a battery charger so I would not drain the battery with the engine off. NOPE! For some reason it didn't work properly (even though the unit showed it was charging properly). Just as I finished uploading the results to the 9887 I heard my alternator start clicking. Turned the key to start up the engine, it didn't work.. AHHH lol. I had to have my GF's father jump start me.. so yea, that part sucked.

So now to the important stuff. The comparison. I hate to say this, but I am really not happy with the results. I'm really bummed and I'm pretty sure something was done wrong because after reading page after page on here, a lot of people are happy with the results. 

Facts: I'm running the 3-way setup. (front components - each speaker separately powered and the Sub is powered separately too). Tweeters in the A-pillars, drivers in the front doors and the sub in the trunk. I ran 3 measurements. One in the middle of the driver seat, one about 2-3 inches to the left of the middle of the driver seat and one about 2-3 inches to the right of the middle of the driver seat. Mic placement was set at the height of my ears and where my head would be in the car.

I believe I read that the imprint system will not do separate measurements for each front component speaker when its in a 3-way setup. I sat in the car for a test measurement and noticed while it was measuring the front left speakers, it measured both the tweeter and driver at the same time and then did the same for the front right speakers. I'm pretty sure that throws off the level set and the time correction since in a 3-way setup each speaker is suppose to be independent of one another.. Am I wrong? I also found that the tweeter was very BRIGHT! When MultEQ is turned off, I normally have the tweeter levels at -4db or -5db and the drivers are at zero. I'm retty sure this is not the case when MultEQ is turned on, especially if the measurements were for both speakers simultaneously. Please tell me I'm wrong on that one.

Next, when I turn MultEQ on, it sounds like I'm listening to my music in a tin-can (or at least that is the closest comparison i can think of). The bass pretty much disappears... What did i do wrong? or what do I need to do to correct it?

I know I wrote a lot and I appreciate people reading it so if you can help me out in any way or point me in the right direction I'd love to try again and get the fantastic results everyone talks about.

let me know if you need any other information provided. 

THANKS!!!


----------



## 86mr2

Turn the sub level way down before testing, your battery will thank you. Turn it up after the test. 

The tweeter and mid chirps happen at the same time and the tweeter chirp is full range so you have to protect it with a cap or amp crossover. You may need to turn the tweeter level UP before the test, and then DOWN slightly after the test. Lots of power available to the mids is always helpful.

3 test points are not enough, and the one in the back seat is important to do.

My hints and tips thread:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-tutorials/50129-imprint-tuning-hints-tips.html


----------



## phish368

Thanks for the feedback. I thought I had read somewhere to keep the mic positions all upfront on the driver seat (in different locations on it). Thanks for the heads up and for the hints/tips link. 

One other question, currently i have multEQ turned off but Ive noticed that my time-correction for the front components seem pretty spot on. If i go into the time correction setting, everything is listed at 0.0 inches. Before I ran the Imprint program I had to have my front left driver at 14.7 and my front left tweeter at 23.x to have a nice sweet spot. 

Does the imprint system also alter or 'update' settings when the MultEQ is turned off? Could this just be coincidence? (Updated: Yup, it was coincidence)

Thanks again for everyone's help!


----------



## Jmlogsn

Front Stage -> LPG 25NFA and Focal Polyglass Mids in stock location (tweets crossfiring from a-pillars)
Sub -> Hertz Energy 10"

I can't get this to sound good, despite numerous runs. Far too much midrange, I have no idea where I am going wrong, any suggestions?


----------



## phish368

Are you doing your measurements only in the front drivers seat area? or are you placing the measurement mic in all the places the program instructs you to do?


----------



## Jmlogsn

Thanks for your response

I am doing five measurements in total, as per the software instructions, three in the drivers seat, one in the back, and one on the passenger seat.


----------



## 86mr2

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-tutorials/50129-imprint-tuning-hints-tips.html


----------



## bernardo

good job, thanks..


----------



## mucha-cmax

It's very good job


----------



## Jmlogsn

Hi

I have run this a few times now, I have focal polyglass components running active. However imprint seems to cross the tweeter very low, so low that it distorts quite badly when playing certain music, and the midbass does not seem to be extended up very high. 

Could this be imprint telling me that I should consider a 3 way setup? Or is this a problem other people have encountered and know a solution for?

Cheers


----------



## abusiveDAD

set your xover plots properly before running


----------



## abusiveDAD

but also change your setting to 3way mode instead of F/R/SUB and that'll give you more xover freedom for your midbass,,, IMPRINT honors your xover settings but not EQ


----------



## 86mr2

Jmlogsn said:


> However imprint seems to cross the tweeter very low, so low that it distorts quite badly when playing certain music, and the midbass does not seem to be extended up very high.


If you are running active you must set the mid/tweet crossover yourself. Imprint only sets the sub/mid crossover. You also must protect your tweets from the Imprint chirp because it is fullrange. I'm surprised you have not blown them actually.


----------



## pedro123

im going to be running 3 way components passive , if i do end up getting the cda-9887 with the imprint kit, is there anything i have to watchout for or do to make it work correctly

thanks
pete


----------



## AWC

pedro123 said:


> im going to be running 3 way components passive , if i do end up getting the cda-9887 with the imprint kit, is there anything i have to watchout for or do to make it work correctly
> 
> thanks
> pete


Yes. Read this thread and the manual. Keeping passive makes it easier, IMHO.

Make sure you keep the mid+tweet close together in the install as they will probably be sharing channels, therefore, maximizing time allignment issues they would suffer from too great a seperation..


----------



## pedro123

ok thanks for the input


----------



## AWC

and don't forget, if all three drivers are hooked up to one crossover (as opposed to biamp) the you'll keep the dipswith at F+R+S as opposed to 3-way.

If your crossover is biamp capable, it will probably share a channel with the mid+tweet, leaving the midbass channel on its own.


If your crossover won't allow that flexibility...I think you need to alter your strategy. If all drivers are connected to the same crossover, then you'll have a helluva time getting a cohesive stage. It will stage well in one position but if you sneeze, turn your head....its gone, poor staging. You'd be best keeping the midbass on one channel, and the mid+tweets on the other, based on how different frequencies react to time allignment challenges (IOW, higher frequencies move alot faster and are therefore less prone to placement).

Hope this helps. My current system is a 3 way passive front, 2 rears, one sub and I'm about to install the extra sub in my dash. It makes a perfect center speaker that way. I'm using the same deck and tuning and it sounds very impressive to me.


----------



## pedro123

i was looking at getting the dls 8.3i 3 ways in which the midrange has its own crossover , how would thats work with the imprint


----------



## AWC

is it triampable?

How many inputs/outpus on that crossover?


----------



## AWC

Wow, I looked at the crossover system. They have a 2 way xover for midbass and tweet...and a seperate add-on crossover just for the mid...

This seems like a silly system so I'll not comment. I don't know anything about it.

The MX33.3 3 way crossover by Morel is fully adjustable and biampable. This isn't even biampable...its weird.


----------



## pedro123

im not sure what triampable it, but the midrage crossover has 1 input and 1 output, the the tweet/woofer crossover has 2 outputs and 1 input


----------



## AWC

pedro123 said:


> im not sure what triampable it, but the midrage crossover has 1 input and 1 output, the the tweet/woofer crossover has 2 outputs and 1 input


Biampable means there are two inputs. This gives the ability to turn the gains up a bit on the midbass, seperate from the others.

You don't have that ability. It would be one single amp pushing all the channels.

It looks as though you place the first input into the midrange seperate box, and the filtered signal then gets fed to the midbass-tweet section. No possibility of using one amp for the highs, and one for the mids.

IOW you're going to need ALOT of juice


What's the amp?


----------



## pedro123

ill be useing d7152's, i also dont like how the dls 8.3i's are setup with the extra crossover, what other 3 ways should i look into, id like to stick with at least a 8" woofer

thanks
pete


----------



## pedro123

i havent read throught he whole thread , but can you run 3 way active with the imrpint? and use the crossover in the 9887


----------



## ptiller

I have read about a few people looking at the files upoaded to the headunit, but it appears they just looked at the text, whick mainly looked like cross over points. 

I did not see anything in the test file that was related to the cut / boost for the freqeuncy response. 

Has anyone with software experiance tried to decipher the files to allow us to access / change what is uploaded to the HU? 

It seems this would be great shareware!!


----------



## mugenrios2k

I have been reading through multiple threads and I have not seen a true answer on if it is ok to run the KTX-100EQ in 3 way mode with no passive networks.
Granted I have not read all of them but am working on it....
Some say yes other say no.....
Just spent a $900 on a full morel setup and I do not want to burn up any of these drivers.

Setup info
2010 Tacoma
Morel ECW 638 front door and rear door L/R ( mid bass drivers) wired in parallel;
Copper sleeved woofers are so worth the money for the extended upper frequency range and more consistent impedance and back EMF.
By the way 3" VC in these door drivers.


and the tweeters in the front door running L/R

(no tweeters in the rear )

NO PASSIVE CROSSOVER NETWORKS

The outputs form the EQ are running back into the head unit so the internal amp on the head unit is utilized which feeds a hi level signal to the add on power pack by alpine.



I pre-set the 3way crossovers on the iDA-305 / KTX-100EQ combo as appropriate for maximal flat response based on various speaker/cross over simulation programs before running the imprint software.
And to my "untrained" ear it sounded very good from the get go.
(actives are so nice compared to passive networks; no phasing or lobing issues)

After running the imprint in just one location it was very evident that the morel doors and tweeter were blending very nicely with each other with very minimal differences between the before and after imprint curves.

After running the imprint and uploading the curves to the head unit/processor I know you know longer have access to the crossovers point when the curves are activated.

*However has anyone been able to confirm that in fact the X-over points and slopes original set by the user remain in place after the imprint has done its thing.*

From the sound of it
It has in fact either changed the lower cut off point on the doors (mid range) significantly or added a lot of gain in the sub 60hz area.
Before the imprint curve the lower X-over point for the doors( band pass mid range) was set at hi pass 60hz 6db/oct. However now it would seem that the imprint has the doors running at a much lower cutoff perhaps even no lower cut off point.

Now the doors can handle the power down to 45hz (thermal and excursion) but I am worried that the tweeters are now playing out of there operating range even thought there is no sign of clipping or distortion out of them.

Since I am not home for the holidays and just got done installing this setup at a buddies house I do not have access to my RTA (BehringerUltracurve ProDEQ2496 not the best but does work for what I need it to do) so I can't check some of this stuff on my own right now.


Inputs, Thoughts; Suggestions.


-Mark
------------------------------------------------------------
New to the forum but not to audio.

Mobile installer for over 5 years in the industry then off to college to get my mechanical engineering degree now design and build home audio setup for for friends and family (hobby) and work full time as a lead system engineer for a major company.
--------------
PS lets try this again took the links to the morel speaker data out.

---------------
PSS
I have open up the calibration files using winrar but only see one crossover point in the program language 20hz slope 2 ( assume the slope this means 2nd order) and it selected my speakers as "large".

There is no other reference to the crossover points for the upper part of the mid range or the hi pass X-over for the tweeter in what will eventually become a true 3 way ( sub will be added at a later time).


There was some informative post early in this thread page 11. That shows some actual measurements taken off of the RCAs when in 3way mode does in fact work however I do not see confirmation that in my case the imprint has selected the upper mid range crossover point and the hi pass point for the tweeters by looking in the calibration files.


----------



## sniper5431

I just ran the imprint software. It gave me 3 selections of curves. I tried to find something on the first 10 pages of this thread on what each name means for the curve. I could not find a description on what they mean. I understand you can upload 2. Which 2 do most people upload and do the names mean?


----------



## sam1233

Hi,
There is no activity in this thread for long time.. Is it because the users quit using this setup and went to new setup with any other processor like JBL Ms-8. 

I recently bought the ktx 100eq, Alpine 9887, Alpine mini amplifier(the 40w rms one) and with JL evolution 2 components.

System sounding awsome with front sound stage with tight bass with the reference with mid curve. I really love it.

Any one still using this setup?

Thanks,


----------



## 86mr2

Yep.


----------



## DS-21

sam1233 said:


> Hi,
> There is no activity in this thread for long time.. Is it because the users quit using this setup and went to new setup with any other processor like JBL Ms-8.
> 
> I recently bought the ktx 100eq, Alpine 9887, Alpine mini amplifier(the 40w rms one) and with JL evolution 2 components.
> 
> System sounding awsome with front sound stage with tight bass with the reference with mid curve. I really love it.
> 
> Any one still using this setup?
> 
> Thanks,


Not exactly (I run a SubIntosh head with the H650, rather than an Alpine head) but I'm happy with it, too. I still think it's a great alternative for simpler systems even with newer stuff out. (By "simpler systems" I mean "widebander+midbass+sub" or "coincident/widebander+midbass+sub." I don't know if the MS-8 is better, admittedly.) 

True, if one's running a center channel and surround speakers, the MS8 makes much more sense than the Alpine Audyssey boxes. But it also costs a lot more.


----------



## sam1233

I am really impressed with Alpine's Audyssey Imprint Sound. At my home I have denon with Audyssey. How much difference Audyssey makes it to the sound, is really awsome.


----------



## Q-Authority

I was an early adoptor of the home Denon/Audyssey system, and found through a lot of trial and error that it can truly sound incredible.

I was really excited whn Alpine introduced it into their processors, but feel that they either still need to make some changes to the current processor to allow for more low level inputs, more output channels, such as center, etc., and for digital inputs, or should just add a second processor to their line that leans more towards use with aftermarket head units.

As it stands now I am leaning towards the Bit1.1, as it lies closer to my needs, and is built to a size that I can use more easily. However, if Alpine was to make some worthwhile changes I would gladly use them instead, as I would absolutely love to have the Audyssey capability.

I think that Alpine and others would really do themselves a big service by promoting, and designing these units, as much for use with aftermarket head units, as for use with oem units. Alpine, in particular, markets them almost completely with oem head units in mind, which probably isn't helping their sales.


----------



## bernardo

hi guys...

i recently bought another 9887 for my other car, so i take out my KTX-100EQ out of the dust, to do some imprint tuning...

the problem is that I dont have my windows XP Laptop Anymore...

now i have a windows 7 laptop, and i cant install the imprint software, does anyone have any idea on how can i solve this?

its a windows 7 home premium OS


----------



## DS-21

Q-Authority said:


> I was an early adoptor of the home Denon/Audyssey system, and found through a lot of trial and error that it can truly sound incredible.
> 
> I was really excited whn Alpine introduced it into their processors, but feel that they either still need to make some changes to the current processor to allow for more low level inputs, more output channels, such as center, etc., and for digital inputs, or should just add a second processor to their line that leans more towards use with aftermarket head units.


I'm not sure that most of those things are useful to most users. Maybe one more set of front outputs for those who insist against all reason on 3-way front setups. Otherwise, that's a lot of very niche-y stuff for what should be basically an OEM integration box that incorporates Audyssey MultEQ XT.

Two things that _would_ be useful to most users - and are on Audyssey's shelf, so to say - are curve-drawing capability (like the Audyssey MultEQ Pro box) and DynamicEQ (like basically every Denon/Onkyo/NAD receiver or prepro today). And then arguably Dynamic Volume, though I can't say as I've never enabled it on the Denon 4308ci/A in the main system or the 3808ci/A in the nearfield system.




Q-Authority said:


> I think that Alpine and others would really do themselves a big service by promoting, and designing these units, as much for use with aftermarket head units, as for use with oem units. Alpine, in particular, markets them almost completely with oem head units in mind, which probably isn't helping their sales.


I doubt that. I think they see the writing on the wall. There's a reason the H660, like the MS-8, is highly geared to OEM heads. OEM heads are much better integrated into modern car interiors than any aftermarket piece can be (especially since basically everyone seems to have abandoned the DIN convention), and generally perform no worse than aftermarket HU's. So why change them for something ugly that's no better-sounding? Aftermarket HU's are going to be an old car thing, inasmuch as they're not already.


----------



## yourwhiteshadow

bernardo said:


> hi guys...
> 
> i recently bought another 9887 for my other car, so i take out my KTX-100EQ out of the dust, to do some imprint tuning...
> 
> the problem is that I dont have my windows XP Laptop Anymore...
> 
> now i have a windows 7 laptop, and i cant install the imprint software, does anyone have any idea on how can i solve this?
> 
> its a windows 7 home premium OS


windows xp mode on windows 7:

Download Windows XP Mode

cheers mate.


----------



## 86mr2

bernardo said:


> hi guys...
> 
> i recently bought another 9887 for my other car, so i take out my KTX-100EQ out of the dust, to do some imprint tuning...
> 
> the problem is that I dont have my windows XP Laptop Anymore...
> 
> now i have a windows 7 laptop, and i cant install the imprint software, does anyone have any idea on how can i solve this?
> 
> its a windows 7 home premium OS


Do you have Imprint 2.1? 

I have it installed on the Vista partition of my laptop. I just have not tried it on Win 7 yet. Did you install the USB driver?


----------



## Q-Authority

DS-21 said:


> I'm not sure that most of those things are useful to most users. Maybe one more set of front outputs for those who insist against all reason on 3-way front setups. Otherwise, that's a lot of very niche-y stuff for what should be basically an OEM integration box that incorporates Audyssey MultEQ XT.
> 
> Two things that _would_ be useful to most users - and are on Audyssey's shelf, so to say - are curve-drawing capability (like the Audyssey MultEQ Pro box) and DynamicEQ (like basically every Denon/Onkyo/NAD receiver or prepro today). And then arguably Dynamic Volume, though I can't say as I've never enabled it on the Denon 4308ci/A in the main system or the 3808ci/A in the nearfield system.


They may not be useful to most users simply because the product has been so heavily slanted toward oem integration with after market amps, etc., but there surely are an awful lot of after market head unit users that could use something with more/better integration features for them, including Audyssey. That's why I also suggested the possibility of a separate unit slanted specifically towards them instead of stuffing evrything into one unit.

I agree that 3-way active fronts are pushing things, and I have no need for them, but the inclusion of a summed center channel, better crossover slope options, and a few other items would be very useful, especially digital inputs.

Honestly though, the other Audyssey options that you mentioned have virtually no appeal to me, and I don't believe are really necessary if they can find a way to more easily set up their units with consistant reults. Maybe they would have some need in a car, but the final results I got with my home unit, the original 4806, had no use for such gadgets. I obtained virtual headphone quality reults form mine, though I will admit it took several months of trial and error, with a lot of microphone placements, and speaker movement.



DS-21 said:


> I doubt that. I think they see the writing on the wall. There's a reason the H660, like the MS-8, is highly geared to OEM heads. OEM heads are much better integrated into modern car interiors than any aftermarket piece can be (especially since basically everyone seems to have abandoned the DIN convention), and generally perform no worse than aftermarket HU's. So why change them for something ugly that's no better-sounding? Aftermarket HU's are going to be an old car thing, inasmuch as they're not already.


Well, I really don't agree that oem units are comparable with general after market head untis, except for the reason that there are so very few really good after market head units being manufactured right now. People have gotten completely caught up in more features, vs more quality. And if the average oem unit were that good, why in the world would we even need processors like these.  If you want to settle for what the car manufactures decide to hand you, fine. But I personally want a choice.


----------



## bernardo

yourwhiteshadow said:


> windows xp mode on windows 7:
> 
> Download Windows XP Mode
> 
> cheers mate.


 
thanks but its not for the Home Premium, just for the Professional

Actually I hate that little things about Microsoft


----------



## bernardo

86mr2 said:


> Do you have Imprint 2.1?
> 
> I have it installed on the Vista partition of my laptop. I just have not tried it on Win 7 yet. Did you install the USB driver?


 
I have the Imprint 1.11 and the 2.1 none of those work, and also the usb driver, maybe its becouse its a 64 bit OS


this is a big fail from Alpine, this software should work on a variety of OS, and hardware Architectures.. they could use a Jave Virtual Machine to do it...


----------



## DS-21

Q-Authority said:


> They may not be useful to most users simply because the product has been so heavily slanted toward oem integration with after market amps, etc., but there surely are an awful lot of after market head unit users that could use something with more/better integration features for them, including Audyssey. That's why I also suggested the possibility of a separate unit slanted specifically towards them instead of stuffing evrything into one unit.


They do have two units, though: the one designed to provide MultEQ to their own HU's and the H650/H660 to provide MultEQ to OEM and non-Alpine HU;s.



Q-Authority said:


> but the inclusion of a summed center channel, better crossover slope options, and a few other items would be very useful, especially digital inputs.


Theoretically, who wouldn't want digital ins? But realistically, how many car-fi source components offer them? Frankly, it's probably fewer now than it was in 1995.

And the center channel? Well, again it would offer a huge improvement (if properly implemented) for those who can incorporate them. Unfortunately, most cars can't. And incorporating a matrixing scheme (DPL2, for instance) would add licensing costs that Harman doesn't have with the MS-8, as Logic7 is an in-house tech for them.

I'm with you on the xovers, though. That's an important one I missed. A choice of slopes would be very useful. And if they had to pick one, I would prefer 4th order to 2d order. With 2d order slopes I like to run them mains 2 octaves away from any major resonances or bottom-end limits. Fourth order slopes give more flexibility.



Q-Authority said:


> Honestly though, the other Audyssey options that you mentioned have virtually no appeal to me, and I don't believe are really necessary if they can find a way to more easily set up their units with consistant reults.


You have obviously never used Audyssey DynamicEQ. It's a revelation. A loudness compensation circuit, that thanks to intelligent design and DSP horsepower, actually works. Music that used to only sound good at one (usually very high) volume level all of a sudden sounds equally good over volume settings 20dB apart. (Though it would need to have some adjustment for car use, because it sets a "reference" level that is useful for movies at home - "0dB" on the volume display is movie theater reference level at the first measurement point - but doesn't make sense for the car.)

And curve-drawing means one can set one's own target curve, rather than taking one of Alpine's and then band-aiding it with further EQ (that messes up some of the time correction.) Kind of like Andy's 31-band "graphic EQ" on the MS-8, but more sophisticated.



Q-Authority said:


> Maybe they would have some need in a car, but the final results I got with my home unit, the original 4806, had no use for such gadgets.


You wouldn't know, because the 4806 couldn't be upgraded to DynamicEQ/Dynamic Volume. That's why, after discovering DynamicEQ with the 4308ci's firmware update, I had to replace the 4306 in my nearfield system with a receiver that had DynamicEQ (ended up being a 3808ci with the firmware update). It's just that good.




Q-Authority said:


> And if the average oem unit were that good, why in the world would we even need processors like these.


Because sources are commodity parts. Room correction software and speakers are not.


----------



## Q-Authority

DS-21 said:


> They do have two units, though: the one designed to provide MultEQ to their own HU's and the H650/H660 to provide MultEQ to OEM and non-Alpine HU;s.


Okay, not to draw this out much more, here are my final comments on the whole speil.
Yes, they do have two units, so to speak, but the one desiginated strictly for their own units can hardly be counted as useful to anyone but a limited number of Alpine users, and only to those who have units specifically built to function with it, so hardly worth mentioning. And the other one still has all of the limitations that I have previously mentioned. And I have always felt that any company who tries to base its sucess on devices prioritized solely for their own units is asking for trouble, and doing little to promote the industry as a whole.



DS-21 said:


> Theoretically, who wouldn't want digital ins? But realistically, how many car-fi source components offer them? Frankly, it's probably fewer now than it was in 1995.


From all of the threads I have read regarding the other current processors with digital inputs there appear to be quite a number. And then you have to consider the number of cd changers that have digital outs as an option. Would you really rather have a questionable oem unit doing your digtal conversion?



DS-21 said:


> And the center channel? Well, again it would offer a huge improvement (if properly implemented) for those who can incorporate them. Unfortunately, most cars can't. And incorporating a matrixing scheme (DPL2, for instance) would add licensing costs that Harman doesn't have with the MS-8, as Logic7 is an in-house tech for them.


I doubt they would have to worry about licensing from anyone, as basic channel summing was around long before DPL licensed their particular version. It goes back in car audio to the early days of car audio separates. And while it can't be used by everyone, I again see plenty of threads regardng its implementation, and considering the number of mobile multi-channel systems, with in-car video, it hardly seems like an issue that should be overlooked so easily. 



DS-21 said:


> You have obviously never used Audyssey DynamicEQ. It's a revelation. A loudness compensation circuit, that thanks to intelligent design and DSP horsepower, actually works. Music that used to only sound good at one (usually very high) volume level all of a sudden sounds equally good over volume settings 20dB apart. (Though it would need to have some adjustment for car use, because it sets a "reference" level that is useful for movies at home - "0dB" on the volume display is movie theater reference level at the first measurement point - but doesn't make sense for the car.)
> 
> And curve-drawing means one can set one's own target curve, rather than taking one of Alpine's and then band-aiding it with further EQ (that messes up some of the time correction.) Kind of like Andy's 31-band "graphic EQ" on the MS-8, but more sophisticated.


The fact that I have never heard some of these newer processes is not really that relevant to my original point. As I explained I was able to create a soundfield with my home system that would never have needed any of them. And afterall, the loudness compensation system you described is mostly needed because of soundfield inadequacies within the listening room, which Audyssey is supposed to take care of in the first place, if it has been set up correcly. In the end, the soundfield I created was entirely coherent and pleasant from the lowest of normal listening volumes, all the way to the loudest. Of course it helped that I was using a rather expensive power conditioner and power cords to go along with the 4806, which is probably seldom done, but none the less, the final result I achieved had absolutely no need for any of the extra stuff their trying to push now.

In addition to the general listening room inadequacies, loudness compensaion is often needed because of the god awful loudness eq qualities that are generally installed in a system's volume device (that are often there to deal with what we are talking about, but are usually more of a hindrance than a help), and that is where Alpine's anti-eq comes in. Unfortunately, not everyone is using this on their low level inputs, which I think is a bit dumb.

Now if someone really wants to specify their own loudness curves, fine, but I don't think it is really an absolute necessity, if other things in the signal chain are done correctly in the first place, but people will always think that more is better. 



DS-21 said:


> You wouldn't know, because the 4806 couldn't be upgraded to DynamicEQ/Dynamic Volume. That's why, after discovering DynamicEQ with the 4308ci's firmware update, I had to replace the 4306 in my nearfield system with a receiver that had DynamicEQ (ended up being a 3808ci with the firmware update). It's just that good.


Again, it doesn't matter that I haven't heard it because I have found that if other things are taken care of it isn't necesary. But if they want to throw it in, for those that can't, or don't have the capability to overcome their system's other shortcomings, which can make the use of such things seem somewhat necessary, then, hey, go ahead and throw it in. But I am saying there are other ways of working around it, and I'll match my system against anyone's who is using those band-aids.



DS-21 said:


> Because sources are commodity parts. Room correction software and speakers are not.


Okay, I don't even see how that addressed the issue I brought up. Sure that stuff is not included in the typical oem head unit, but that wasn't my point. And how in the world are speakers not a commodity part when head units are.?

Anyway, have fun, as this isn't about to change anyone's mind about anything, for those that are reading this thread.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

bernardo said:


> I have the Imprint 1.11 and the 2.1 none of those work, and also the usb driver, maybe its becouse its a 64 bit OS
> 
> 
> this is a big fail from Alpine, this software should work on a variety of OS, and hardware Architectures.. they could use a Jave Virtual Machine to do it...



Alpine's product works fine for me....


1) Right click the "USB_Driver_setup" and choose properties. You should have a "compatibility" tab. Choose Windows XP Service Pack 3 and click "OK"

The following link will show you a different way to do the same thing...
Compatibility Mode - Windows 7 Forums

2) Right click the "USB_Driver_setup" again and click "Run as Administrator"

3) Repeat the process when installing the Sound Manager program. Be sure to choose the "setup.exe" file though and not the *.msi installer. I doubt there would be any problems, just being safe.

4) Tune.


----------



## sam1233

bernardo said:


> hi guys...
> 
> i recently bought another 9887 for my other car, so i take out my KTX-100EQ out of the dust, to do some imprint tuning...
> 
> the problem is that I dont have my windows XP Laptop Anymore...
> 
> now i have a windows 7 laptop, and i cant install the imprint software, does anyone have any idea on how can i solve this?
> 
> its a windows 7 home premium OS


I used Ktx-100EQ imprint software manager v2.1 in Vista(even though alpine does not officially support vista). It worked fine. 

As other friends suggested xp support for windows 7 should work. 

Once installed, you should be on the path to an awsome sound stage.


----------



## DS-21

Q-Authority said:


> And the other one still has all of the limitations that I have previously mentioned. And I have always felt that any company who tries to base its sucess on devices prioritized solely for their own units is asking for trouble, and doing little to promote the industry as a whole.


That strategy doesn't seem to hurt Apple. (Not to say or imply Alpine has ever executed anything up to Apple' s standards.) And why should any one company care about promoting "the industry as a whole," anyway. If the rest of 'em go to pot but you prosper, you've done your shareholders/owners a solid anyway.



Q-Authority said:


> From all of the threads I have read regarding the other current processors with digital inputs there appear to be quite a number. And then you have to consider the number of cd changers that have digital outs as an option. Would you really rather have a questionable oem unit doing your digtal conversion?


DAC's are a commodity part. Who cares where it's done? As long as there aren't a whole bunch of D/A-A/D-D/A loops, it's just not an issue.



Q-Authority said:


> I doubt they would have to worry about licensing from anyone, as basic channel summing was around long before DPL licensed their particular version. It goes back in car audio to the early days of car audio separates.


Except that simple summing just doesn't work that well. People have moved on to matrixing techniques because they just plain work better. 



Q-Authority said:


> The fact that I have never heard some of these newer processes is not really that relevant to my original point. As I explained I was able to create a soundfield with my home system that would never have needed any of them.


I'm sorry, but if your system doesn't seriously "lock in" only at certain volume levels (which vary per mix), then it's just not very high resolution. What DynamicEQ does is allow one to listen quieter (or rarely, louder) and get that same "lock in." That's kind of useful in a car. Far more than some stupid digital input. 



Q-Authority said:


> And afterall, the loudness compensation system you described is mostly needed because of soundfield inadequacies within the listening room,


Again, I would suggest your utter lack of experience is telling here. 



Q-Authority said:


> which Audyssey is supposed to take care of in the first place, if it has been set up correcly. In the end, the soundfield I created was entirely coherent and pleasant from the lowest of normal listening volumes, all the way to the loudest.


Then your system must be low resolution.



Q-Authority said:


> Of course it helped that I was using a rather expensive power conditioner and power cords to go along with the 4806,


OK, the fact that you're talking about ****ing wires lets me _know_ that you're deaf.



Q-Authority said:


> And how in the world are speakers not a commodity part when head units are.?


If you're not smart enough, or too poorly versed in the scholarly literature on sonic differences in audio electronics, to know the answer to that, I certainly can't help you. Go enjoy throwing money at your ****ing power wires. You know, they sound even better if wrapped in 500 euro notes! Preferably at least 6 thick.


----------



## Q-Authority

DS-21 said:


> That strategy doesn't seem to hurt Apple. (Not to say or imply Alpine has ever executed anything up to Apple' s standards.) And why should any one company care about promoting "the industry as a whole," anyway. If the rest of 'em go to pot but you prosper, you've done your shareholders/owners a solid anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> DAC's are a commodity part. Who cares where it's done? As long as there aren't a whole bunch of D/A-A/D-D/A loops, it's just not an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Except that simple summing just doesn't work that well. People have moved on to matrixing techniques because they just plain work better.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but if your system doesn't seriously "lock in" only at certain volume levels (which vary per mix), then it's just not very high resolution. What DynamicEQ does is allow one to listen quieter (or rarely, louder) and get that same "lock in." That's kind of useful in a car. Far more than some stupid digital input.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I would suggest your utter lack of experience is telling here.
> 
> 
> 
> Then your system must be low resolution.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, the fact that you're talking about ****ing wires lets me _know_ that you're deaf.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're not smart enough, or too poorly versed in the scholarly literature on sonic differences in audio electronics, to know the answer to that, I certainly can't help you. Go enjoy throwing money at your ****ing power wires. You know, they sound even better if wrapped in 500 euro notes! Preferably at least 6 thick.


Okay, you have just demonstrated beyond reproach how incomparably ignorant you really are on this subject. And your juvenile pathetic personal attacks are an embarrassment to this and any other even semi-serious audio forum.


----------



## DS-21

People like you are one reason companies don't think there's a market for serious music reproduction enhancing gear. They need to add superfluous frippery to appease the deaf idiots who think that _boutique power wires_ are anything but the scam they are. 

And unfortunately that means people who actually care about listening to music don't get the best experience they could because of functionally deaf people like you.


----------



## Q-Authority

DS-21: So this where the the right wing conservative name callers spend their time, when they're not slinging mud from the pig pen styes that they so love to waller around in. Your sad attempt at rationalization is laughable. On one hand you praise without question all the new gimmicky processing software that someone has managed to dream up, and on the other hand you rudely criticize products that have won numerous awards at many of the most prestigious home audio shows throughout the world. Products that are in fact used by some of the most highly regarded recording and sound studios in the world, such as Mobile fidelity Sound Labs, and the CBS Reference Listening Studio.

You, and others like you are nothing more than over grown crude and vulgar bags of wind, who lacking any real knowlege of the subjects they wish to criticize always end up resorting to the basest of arguments, by calling your opponent names of the most vile sort, and spewing rude comments that have at the very least no merit whatsoever, and most often absolutely nothing to do with the point the initial discussion was based upon.

I suppose I should feel pity for you as without your sad little internet podiums, from whence you choose to so easily attack people without the fear of direct personal reprisal, you would have no life at all. In fact your empty shell of a life must be one long lonely continual parade of disappointments, as you have never once actually tried to glimpse even the smallest bit of knowledge about any of the subjects that you so pretend to know anything about. You were, and still remain the loud name calling bully in school that everyone absolutely dreaded sitting next to. So tell me, just what did your step father/priest do to you in the dark hours of the night/confessional, that made you such a dispicable and unhappy person.


----------



## DS-21

Q-Authority said:


> DS-21: So this where the the right wing conservative name callers spend their time,


Apparently, if you are one.

My left-wing pragmatism is fairly well known around these parts...



Q-Authority said:


> On one hand you praise without question all the new gimmicky processing software that someone has managed to dream up,


No, Dude-who-needs-Q-tips-to-clean-out-his-ears, I praise _after personal experience_ processing that does what it claims (by my own listening evaluation) to do, whereas you call it "gimmicky" without listening.

When it's known that something can cause a sonic difference, and everyone who's not as deaf as you are knows that a frequency response contour that changes with level will sound different at most volume levels from a straight gain, reasonable people can disagree as to the desirability of the difference. But they have to audititon it first.

By contrast, only sick sad deaf people think have such pure hearing acuity and such great insecurity that they think different ****ing _power cords_ are going to do a goddamn thing. So a reasonable person need not "listen" to them to determine that fact.



Q-Authority said:


> You, and others like you are nothing more than over grown crude and vulgar bags of wind, who lacking any real knowlege of the subjects they wish to criticize always end up resorting to the basest of arguments,


Indeed. See quoted text, infra, for such an "argument."



Q-Authority said:


> In fact your empty shell of a life must be one long lonely continual parade of disappointments, as you have never once actually tried to glimpse even the smallest bit of knowledge about any of the subjects that you so pretend to know anything about.


Project much?

Considering how little you obviously know about the actual science behind audio, I found your comments highly enjoyable and amusing.


----------



## Q-Authority

DS-21 said:


> Apparently, if you are one.
> 
> My left-wing pragmatism is fairly well known around these parts....


The left wing has absolutely no need for people such as you, who resort to the exact same things that people so revile about today's extreme right wing fanatics.



DS-21 said:


> No, Dude-who-needs-Q-tips-to-clean-out-his-ears, I praise _after personal experience_ processing that does what it claims (by my own listening evaluation) to do, whereas you call it "gimmicky" without listening.
> 
> When it's known that something can cause a sonic difference, and everyone who's not as deaf as you are knows that a frequency response contour that changes with level will sound different at most volume levels from a straight gain, reasonable people can disagree as to the desirability of the difference. But they have to audititon it first.
> 
> By contrast, only sick sad deaf people think have such pure hearing acuity and such great insecurity that they think different ****ing _power cords_ are going to do a goddamn thing. So a reasonable person need not "listen" to them to determine that fact..


Well, apparently you do no such thing, in regards to appreciating anyone else's personal experience besides your own, and what you see in that mirror you must spend most of your time prancing around in front of.

Ah, and hear is where we get to the part where you find my statements so enjoyable and amusing that you have to resort to vulgar swearing.



DS-21 said:


> Indeed. See quoted text, infra, for such an "argument.".


Have you ever once considered taking a logic course?:laugh:




DS-21 said:


> Project much?.
> 
> Considering how little you obviously know about the actual science behind audio, I found your comments highly enjoyable and amusing.


I love it. You continue to slander my knowledge of the science behind audio reproduction, mostly with juvenile name calling, while not once have you shown any real understanding of it yourself, except to randomly quote one or two basic audio philosophies, which for the most part are never used in their proper context.

Tell you what. You can have the last word if you want. Apparently, the moderation of this board is not something that is of much importance at this time and place, so you, and all those of your thinking are more than welcome to it. I won't be back!


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Experience is nothing without hindsight.


----------



## 86mr2

Q-Authority said:


> I won't be back!


Works for me.


----------



## DS-21

Q-Authority said:


> Well, apparently you do no such thing, in regards to appreciating anyone else's personal experience besides your own,


What *experience,* Q-tip?

Here's what you've written:

"The fact that I have never heard some of these newer processes..."

You, by your own admission, have no actual experience with the technology in question. So unless you want to claim that it does nothing (as switching digital sources, or power cords, or amps, or speaker wires, or RCA wires does nothing pro or con for a given music reproduction system, assuming the ones previously in use were competently designed, nonbroken, used as intended, and in the case of amps powerful enough to drive one's speakers to the desired SPL) then you just don't have a leg to stand on.


----------



## billecorgan

Howdy to everyone here.. I found this post because I was searching for more info on the KTX-100EQ. I bought this a few months ago thinking it would work with my Alpine stereo. Wow, i cannot believe it only supports one unit. Anyway, I got a good deal, but its not good if I cannot use it. I don't think I can return it either  because it was on a 'Going out of business' sale. I paid $125 for it. I would take $100 for it if someone wants it.. I would appreciate it because I could really use the money right now. I have a 100% feedback profile on ebay and we use that so you know that you could trust me.. Thanks in advance.


----------



## bernardo

Guys, the Imprint software never worked on my windows 7 HOME PREMIUM...

SO if anyone else have the same issue, this is what i did...


download VMWARE Player ( a virtual machine)
download Windows XP Professional for Virtual Machine.


i just run Windows XP over my Windows7 and everything worked as it supposed to.


----------



## absavino

Questions about Imprint.
1. Once I finish doing an imprint, can I leave the imprint module connected so I won't have to always hook it up if I need to do an imprint? 
2. I have Sirius and use the Alpine sirius tuner. Can I hook up the imprint to the empty Sirius AI-Net plug so I won't have to remove the sirius connection to the back of the HU? 

Thank you.


----------



## bernardo

absavino said:


> Questions about Imprint.
> 1. Once I finish doing an imprint, can I leave the imprint module connected so I won't have to always hook it up if I need to do an imprint?
> 2. I have Sirius and use the Alpine sirius tuner. Can I hook up the imprint to the empty Sirius AI-Net plug so I won't have to remove the sirius connection to the back of the HU?
> 
> Thank you.


no no

you calibrate with the imprint computer and your lap top...

once you finish, you send the parameters to the HU, and the HU keep these parameters stored (you can store 2 of 3 EQ curves)..

so thats your new equalization, and you can used with radio, CD iPod or what ever source you have.


----------



## bigrig

*Imprint Round 3*



bigrig said:


> Well, I'm back. Imprint has beaten me.
> 
> Previously when I ran Imprint my front speakers wouldn't work. Just a little bass. I managed to get it working by sending the MultEQ curve multiple times. Switching between curves would kill the front speakers. So, I just stuck with one curve. I could turn MultEQ on/off without losing the fronts.
> 
> So a while back my battery post came loose, and now the fronts are gone again. I've ran the measurements a couple times and uploaded the curves many many times, but I can't get the fronts to work this time. If I turn Defeat "ON" they work...but then it sounds the same as with MultEQ off. Also if I upload two curves I can't switch between them, where I could before.
> 
> Any ideas? Bad Imprint kit hardware or bad head unit? o:


So I installed new tweeters. As in this thread - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...y-replaceable-tweeter-pods-6.html#post1072949

I gave Imprint another chance, and it works! :laugh:

I think the really low tweeter levels previously may have been the problem. Here's the graph from this time. Tweeters were pretty high but Imprint mellowed them. And the imaging is the best part.


----------



## AWC

This may be a good time to reiterate. Imprint can only make a good system better. It can't make a terrible system great. It, first, takes proper implementation of the install to do any serious corrections. Then, you need to correct any serious corrections before running the program. A good way to do this is by running the imprint system once, using the very first measurement will give you an idea which of your drivers are out of phase, how far off you are in setting the gains. Once you have a really good response graph on your first run, then run the entire program and you will be very happy...well, most of you. All of the sub tricks and many ways of tricking imprint are good to know, but first, car audio basics have to be dealt with for success to happen at the level most of us would accept. That means proper driver installation (aiming, baffle construction, deadening, phase issues) gain setting, installation with regards to electrical prowess, etc...

Lastly, it is impossible to have any system sound good without a proper 0/1 guage power wire with at least a gold core. The wires themselves should be at least what you paid for the vehicle.


----------



## theflry

I bought the Imprint Processor for my Alpine ida-x305, but I've been having the worst time setting it up. I got it installed professionally since I am not very good with wiring, but there is no doubt they did something wrong. I uploaded pictures of my graphs please check them out...

Right away I notice a problem in that the sub jacks have nothing plugged into them. Also, I have a component system up front, and speakers in the rear as well. What yields better results, setting it up for 3 way, or front/rear/sub ??? It's set to front/rear/sub right now so I should know if that needs to be changed.

I could really use some advice so I know what to tell them at the audio shop, as all the shops I've been to around here have trouble communicating and do pretty shoddy work.

Thanks everyone,
Taylor


----------



## bigrig

Front/Rear/Sub is the way to go if you're using rear-fill. You probably have passive crossovers for the components up front? So Imprint will treat each mid/tweeter as a single speaker.


----------



## 86mr2

bigrig said:


> Front/Rear/Sub is the way to go if you're using rear-fill. You probably have passive crossovers for the components up front? So Imprint will treat each mid/tweeter as a single speaker.


You have a sub?


----------



## theflry

Yes I have a sub and some Diamond Hex components up front. It's currently hooked up to Front/Rear/Sub so I was checking to see if I should get it changed to 3way to take advantage of the components but I guess not.

Everyone else's Imprint graphs look relatively similar while mine looks way off, is this because my sub wasn't plugged into the Imprint Processer? Or maybe a result of poor mic positioning?


----------



## 86mr2

theflry said:


> is this because my sub wasn't plugged into the Imprint Processer?


At a guess, yes, but how could any professional not connect the sub out to your sub amp?

Definately, you want to operate your system in front/rear/sub mode. The three-way mode is meant for active systems.


----------



## bigrig

theflry said:


> Is this because my sub wasn't plugged into the Imprint Processer? Or maybe a result of poor mic positioning?


I don't know how it works with the PXA-H100, but with the KTX-100EQ, you don't plug any of the speaker outputs into the unit. You plug in the mic, and connect a data cable to a special port on the head unit.

Does your sub play loudly during normal use?


----------



## theflry

Yes I prefer the sub to be loud. I had planned on lowering the gains all the way.. or almost all the way so I wouldn't be plagued with weak Imprint bass. At first I thought it'd be okay that the sub wasn't connected since I didn't want it weakened anyhow, but now I feel like I might be missing out, at least on the time correction and such.


----------



## bigrig

So you're saying you looked at the back of the head-unit and nothing is connected to the sub out RCA jacks. So is the sub using a line-level converter tapped off the rear speakers?

Imprint won't work with that setup. It needs to tune the Front/Rear/Sub output separately. But it's an easy fix, just run the RCA cable from the head-unit to the sub amp.


----------



## theflry

I used to be able to control my sub with my head unit, but now after the imprint was installed to the ida-x305 the sub controls don't work, and the jacks on the imprint for sub are empty. So I have no idea what the guy did. 

Fading to the rear plays only the sub, the rear deck speakers go silent... so my head unit has no control over the rear speakers either. It's just a big mess and trying to explain that stuff to the shop usually yields some BS answer and no assistance.


----------



## 86mr2

Really, you should start a new thread referencing your own equipment, you will likely get better help that way. 

It may be that the shop connected the subw and rear amp rca's to the wrong output of the PXA-H100.


----------



## focal318

Hey guys, quick question about an Error -2 message. I've received this code at least 15 times now, only making it completely through it once and that time after I sent the curve I believe the PXA-H100 froze. After I closed the Imprint software I disconnected the microphone by the headunit (iXA-W407) never responded and updated, I ultimately had to kill the ignition to regain control of it.

I've followed the steps perfectly including hooking the vehicle up to a battery charger just in case lack of power is an issue. I read in a previous post on this thread where someone was receiving the same error code and he said the issue was with a satellite radio running on Ai-Net for measurement. I tried disconnecting that this morning as well only having the Imprint connected and I'm still receiving the same error code. 

The timing of when it gives the error is never the same, sometimes it'll happen in the first 3 minutes and other times it's made it to the subs before giving the error code. Also each time I've received it I've power cycled everything, disconnected the mic, closed Imprint, turned off the ACC off, disconnected the USB cable, and rebooted computer so I was trying a fresh run each time. Any help or suggestions would be great appreciated!!


----------



## sasa097

Has anyone had experience with running the software on a newer version of Windows such as 8 or 8.1? I am debating between between investing about $100 into Imprint, or jumping over to the 80PRS.


----------



## Notloudenuf

sasa097 said:


> Has anyone had experience with running the software on a newer version of Windows such as 8 or 8.1? I am debating between between investing about $100 into Imprint, or jumping over to the 80PRS.


I have Windows 7 Home Premium. I could never get it to work on that. I finally used my old Windows Vista laptop and got the software to run on that.
There is no update, there never will be an update to the software.

The 9887 sounded great with just the regular settings however. I was very satisfied with my sound with my settings.


----------



## bernardo

Guys, you all can run Windows XP with a Virtual Machine, over Windows 7 or Windows 8. For example I use VMWare and its free..

So virtually i run Windows XP, MacOSX, and Ubuntu, all runing over my Windows 7

And NO the Alpine 9887 sounds Great, but with the KTX-100EQ sounds F$?#ing AMAZING


----------



## Notloudenuf

bernardo said:


> So virtually i run Windows XP, MacOSX, and Ubuntu, all runing over my Windows 7


I tried using VMWare to run this software. The port would never connect. :worried: All other parts of Win XP would run inside of VMware except the Alpine software.
I'm not saying it's impossible because I am no computer expert but I'm saying I tried every tutorial/troubleshooting/everything I could find and could never get it to work on Win7 Home Premium.


----------



## bernardo

I dont know what to say, I have 3 cars on 9887s, so i still sometime use the KTX-100EQ and I do it running VMware and then Windows XP over my Windows 7..

I just re install the drivers on both OSs and that was all.. never had any trouble..

you should check your vmware configuration.. maybe thats the problem, the driver..

but it can be done, i do it frequently, and I can help you guys with it..


----------



## Notloudenuf

I'm glad you could get it to work. I have since sold my 9887, but not because of the software issue.


----------



## scsiman

To answer your question I would go with IMPRINT. A friend of mine who went to F-1 status school wanted my 9887 because I went with the Alpine DVA-9965, PXA-H800, RUX-C800, KCA-420i. I bought a old XP laptop ($80.00) to deal with alpine’s software. I wanted the digital outputs of the 9965. I wish I kept the 9887 to use with the PXA-H800(Imprint) and RUX-C800. That’s my answer and I’m sticking to it.


----------



## rmoltis

I used the ktx100-eq with my cda 9887.
In my ford aspire.

I have infinity kappa perfect 5.1 components 
front+rear running passive so I could keep all the channels processed.
They are 400 watt max 100w rms each.
Have 2 infinity kappa 100.9w subs 1400w 350 rms
Infinity kappa one amp 1600w 800rms
Infinity kappa four amp 1200w 125w rmsx4

And 72 sq ft of dynamat extreme.

Initial impressions without imprint was the system sounded great for how it sat.
It sounded even better with some tuning.
Setting the crossover points, ta by string measurment, trying to tame peaks and dips.

But ultimately there weren't enough equalizing points to set everything perfectly by hand on this deck.
You could get a couple things just right then something else would stand out.
Then you tune that out and the old parts become out of sync.

So I went ahead and ordered the ktx100-eq 
Because I didn't have an rta to use or an oscilloscope.

First thing I did was turned off the high pass and low pass filters on all the amps.
Which by itself made everything sound much warmer in the midbass and bass notes.
This was called out in the imprint manual because it likes to see the sound of the speakers unfiltered.

I set both amps around 1/4 gain.
I could turn them up more, but even by ear anything above 1/4 was driving everything too much at higher levels.

Then I went ahead and sat in each seat in the car and put a piece of tape on the roof to represent the center of my head on a vertical axis and used a pen to pinpoint on the tape exact center.

Then I also put tape on the windows to represent the center of my head on the horizontal axis and used a pen to pinpoint the center.

Then I ran string from center to center on the tape on the windows starting with the rear seats which established the horizontal axis of the listeners head center.

Then used the roof marks to find the vertical axis center for each seat and marked that spot with marker on the horizontal string for center.
Used measuring tape to find center between listeners and marked it on the string as well.

Then I hung string over each marked line so when it hung down it was centered over each mark but 1/4" above so it wouldn't interfere with the Mic readings.
Then removed the horizontal string.

I repeated these steps with the front seats as well.
And being as I was tuning for front 2 seats.
The t/a Mic placement reading was center between front listener positions.

After all the locations were "surveyed"
I proceeded to take measurements with the microphone on a tripod.
I was in a quiet place with no outsde sounds.
I would line up the microphone with the string but kept it 1/4 below to avoid weird readings.

Measured all six listening positions.
Between Front seats for t/a
Front seat
Passenger seat
Rear left
Rear right
Rear center.

Then after I was done I saved two filters.
The reference and linear.

And needless to say since all the Mic locations were spot on.
I didn't get any weird sounds.
Or collapsed stages or anything funky.
It seems very well balanced and even.
The subs mids and highs blend in well together.

And if it was tuned for the driver seat it would sound perfect to me the driver. 

But it would sound bad for my fiancee who has heard the difference between driver tuned and front seats tuned.

And deems it unfair for me to get all the "good" sound.

All in all I'm very impressed.
You can now hear the mid bass drivers hitting the mid bass notes like mini subs. 
And the wave decay of the subwoofers is drastically improved.
The bass used to seem longer but now that the decay has improved the accuracy of each note is very clean even for a ported box.
No long lingering bass lines.
Contanimaning the cabin airspace when the next bassline hits.


I'm very impressed with how everything has worked out.
And even though I've read bad reviews online about the imprint.
I feel its based on people who can't seem to dial in the accuracy of the tuning process.

Also people complain about the bass being reduced after the imprint process.

But usually its because they had the gain turned up much more than it needed to be.

Once it measures the wave decay in the cabin it tunes it so that when the deck is at full volume with +15 on the deck sub adjustment.
the sub produces the max amount of sound it can while blending in with the rest of the system.
While not having the extra bass lingering in the air.

So what I've learned is.
1.)Don't turn up the amp gains after imprint.
The bass adjustment on the deck on +15 produces the most bass without ruining decay.
And anything more is ruining sonic accuracy for that "booming bass"

2.) Sit in each seat to find your head placement so its not "off" in any spots. run string lines and mark head locations and center spots between passengers for Mic placement.
Because eyeballing Mic location can put your measurement off by a few inches up/down/left/right. Making for inconsistansies in stage and overall frequency response.

3.) If you finish the imprint process and see weird spots on the graph.
Adjusting the amp gains and re-tuning may help correct the imbalance to an extent. But its always good to start low and work your way up so you can see when the adjustments stop working.


----------



## sasa097

This is exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Thank you all for your (longwinded) inputs. I have KTX-100EQ on the way, hopefully I can get virtual machine to work properly.


----------



## FoxClubNiner

Sorry to drag up a thread. I lost my CD for the software but I still have all the equipment. Does anyone know where I can get the software? Thanks!


----------



## ninogui

Hello

here you go:

https://mega.co.nz/#F!W1Qx2AKL!XXU6IYnGjrf0U_mA5Z2_xQ

This is the latest ever released version 1.1.1 cd rom folders
you have the usb driver folder and the imprint folder with the *.msi installation package. Also includes .net versions and language packs whenever needed.

happy to know someone still using this unit!

greetings


----------



## marcbe

..heads up 

I know that you've spoken about it on few occasions, however I still haven't find resolution.. Imprint (KTX-100EQ with CDA-9887) hangs on first test on 99% and wont move any further.. I've tried Imprint 2.1 and 1.1, Windows 7 Pro and XP Pro SP2 same.. Any help please?

I have also noticed that during test I can hear "test sound vibrations" only from front speakers, no sounds are coming from back shelf speakers.. my set is 2-way compo (tweeter+bass) with cross on front + 3way speakers on shelf (no amp and no sub for now). HU set to 3way.


----------



## ninogui

Hi there

I am 99% sure these type of problems are related to usb drivers and operating system

On the safe side I can tell you that my old portable with windows XP had no problem fully running the application to good results

On the practical side I have abandoned the imprint routine, I can hold much better results fine tuning the system by ear, starting by measuring and entering the real distance from a certain driver to my head position inside the car, and I can tell you I have tried dozens of runs of the imprint, never got "ear" satisfactory results

rgds
nuno


----------



## marcbe

Hi Nuno, Thanks for replay.. hmm, I am using 32-bit WinXP SP2 with original drivers, how to be sure.. 

Regarding CDA-9887, Imprint would unlock additional functionality like front-back balance, trebles and bass settings.. can I do setup without Imprint?


----------



## AudioDon

Hi,
There's nothing like subscribing to a 8 year old thread 

I've been loving a cda-9856, but I've finally got a 9887 on the way. I'm on the fence as to whether I should try and find the ktx-100eq and set it up, or do it by ear. There's also a shop locally that'll do it for $100. I'd appreciate any opinions. 

In the meantime please keep the discussion going, and I'll go back and continue reading from the beginning.

Thanks


----------



## lurch

i tried a few diff laptops with my alpine cda117. 
never did work. never made a connection. FRUSTRATING. 
i finally gave up and moved on to a pioneer prs80. 
i still have the 117 and the audyssy eq in the closet ...:mean:


----------



## ninogui

marcbe said:


> Hi Nuno, Thanks for replay.. hmm, I am using 32-bit WinXP SP2 with original drivers, how to be sure..
> 
> Regarding CDA-9887, Imprint would unlock additional functionality like front-back balance, trebles and bass settings.. can I do setup without Imprint?


If I can remember correctly you should flip a switch on the units lower back to get it into active mode, with this switch on you have access to mostly all the parameters that really matter


----------



## ninogui

AudioDon said:


> Hi,
> There's nothing like subscribing to a 8 year old thread
> 
> I've been loving a cda-9856, but I've finally got a 9887 on the way. I'm on the fence as to whether I should try and find the ktx-100eq and set it up, or do it by ear. There's also a shop locally that'll do it for $100. I'd appreciate any opinions.
> 
> In the meantime please keep the discussion going, and I'll go back and continue reading from the beginning.
> 
> Thanks


As said before even with successful runs of the imprint system never accomplished a satisfactory result to my ears, in my opinion you would be throwing money out the window (and the audio setup companies will be happy to take it from you!)

With the unit in active mode - meaning no passive crossovers in place, the unit connects straight to the drivers or to amplifier(s) and onto the drivers you have access to cut off frequencies, delays (distance) and slopes per channel so you can program whatever you perceive as best

One of these days I will try to remember and post how I did the setup 7 years ago by ear, in the end I was able to win the Emma sound quality contest active 4 + 1 channels category semi-final in portugal, placed second in the finals - 2007 I think was the year

Bear in mind the 9887 setup is just a detail in the ideal sounding setup inside a car! the guy that won that year´s final was a Czech national toeing in his (very) old mercedes (engine did not run!) with a (apparently) very simple system of just a head unit and a couple loudspeaker drivers.. shamming and slamming a dozen other competitors with eye popping and powerful multi-thousand bucks systems, so you see there is much more to this than meets the eye, or ear in this case!


rgds


----------



## marcbe

marcbe said:


> ..heads up
> 
> I know that you've spoken about it on few occasions, however I still haven't find resolution.. Imprint (KTX-100EQ with CDA-9887) hangs on first test on 99% and wont move any further.. I've tried Imprint 2.1 and 1.1, Windows 7 Pro and XP Pro SP2 same.. Any help please?
> 
> I have also noticed that during test I can hear "test sound vibrations" only from front speakers, no sounds are coming from back shelf speakers.. my set is 2-way compo (tweeter+bass) with cross on front + 3way speakers on shelf (no amp and no sub for now). HU set to 3way.


Hi I fixed 99% issue with USB FTDI drivers update to 2.12 from this website: 
D2XX Direct Drivers helped. First load delivered with Imprint software drivers, then newer 2.12 and Imprint software at the end. 

However I still cannot measure rear speakers, no sound is cumming out during test. Many Thanks for help!


----------



## Bakler1285

AudioDon said:


> Hi,
> There's nothing like subscribing to a 8 year old thread
> 
> I've been loving a cda-9856, but I've finally got a 9887 on the way. I'm on the fence as to whether I should try and find the ktx-100eq and set it up, or do it by ear. There's also a shop locally that'll do it for $100. I'd appreciate any opinions.
> 
> In the meantime please keep the discussion going, and I'll go back and continue reading from the beginning.
> 
> Thanks


I've got 4 9887s because this, with Imprint, is all I want a head unit to be. It sounds great by itself, with no tuning, but the KTX-100EQ really unlocks the potential of the head unit. Maybe some people can achieve these kind of results without the KTX, but I could not, and I'd be willing to bet most people could not even get close to the results that Imprint did. 

I completely agree with a lot of what is said here about the gripes people have with the Imprint being due to their use of it. It seems to me, after having run it about 25 times now on 7 different cars, that it is very sensitive. If you don't do it just right, the results can be rather disappointing, but with some trial and error, you can surely achieve results that will wow you.

The long post, a few posts up from mine, where the person is talking about using tape and string to map out the listening area, is spot on. The mic being a few inches off here or there honestly does seem to make quite a difference in the imaging results.

When I first received the tuning kit, I had lots of problems, error codes before starting, halfway through running it, etc. This was using the software (v1.1 I think) and drivers that came with the KTX, on a Windows XP machine. 

I found a copy of the software, v2.10 and downloaded the latest FTDI D2xx drivers from the manufacturer's website (link is in the post above mine), and this enabled me to get the program running properly on Windows 7 64-bit. I have not tried this on 8, 8.1 or 10, but I would assume 8 and 8.1, at least, would be able to run the same way. If not, run the software in compatibility mode. 

Install the software, plug everything in and turn your ignition to ACC, grab the latest drivers and install those. Then turn off your ignition, unplug the serial cable from the front of the head unit. For good measure, reboot your computer after installing everything.

Now, before running it, you want to hold the RESET button on the front of the head unit until it beeps, to clear out any adjustments made in the head unit prior to running Imprint. Then, turn off all crossovers on your amps, set the gains to Nominal (or whatever it would be on your particular amp), turn off any bass boost or other sound adjustments settings your amp may have.

Now that you are ready to run it, hook your car up to a battery charger to ensure you don't have drops in voltage while you are tuning it. Connect all the cables and mic to the KTX, the KTX to the head unit, and then the USB cable to your computer (use USB 2.0 ports, 3.0 may be fine, but I've heard they could cause compatibility issues with some devices; so, to be safe, just use 2.0 ports if you can). If doing this on a laptop, plug in the charger, change your power plan to High Performance and set the computer to sleep NEVER, or no lower than 1 hour.

Now you are ready to begin, make sure your car is in as quiet of a place as possible, be SILENT when you are running this. Turn your ignition to ACC/ON Open up Imprint sound manager and begin. Make sure your placement of the mic is consistent, as was mentioned a few posts up. Run it through and check your results, set the curves to the head unit and you are done. I always found myself preferring the Reference curve over the other 2 options but your tastes may vary. 

If anyone has any questions I will be monitoring this thread and can help with any troubles you may be having. My specialty is IT, so I can surely help some of you that are having issues with getting the software to run correctly. I've run this many times without issue, so despite the documentation and support of the software being terrible, it should work, given the right circumstances. 

But to anyone wondering if they should get this, do it, don't look back. Buying the KTX and using it made me so happy, I bought 4 more 9887s off eBay, and 5 of my friends have now purchased them as well, based on hearing my system. It's a great little tool and worth every penny if you just take your time with it and get used to running it.


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## jmontoya21

Me coming from a cda-9887 with imprint would sincerely recommend a deh-prs80 with auto tune I had my fare share of Alpines and IMHO none come close to the Sq of the pioneer


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## McIntosh 431 mobile

Man talk about saving the best for last.. Page 31, you guys are great!!
This is exactly what I've been looking for, but for one detail.. 
I have a PXA-H100 waiting for me when I get home. Will get the mic and use Imprint soon. 
Question is- will Imprint establish crossover points for the mid to tweet, or just for the sub to mid?? 
I'm good with setting the upper Xover myself before running Imprint, but I'd rather let the automated system do its thing. 
As long as I do my part.. Which is to optimize the system before running Imprint. 
I'm an engine tuner by trade, and this sounds like the same thing. Never goes well, but good things come to those who don't give up!
Thanks Guys. 
Eric


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## lolo735

arigato said:


> I did it. Imprint will work correctly only with Regional settings set for US (at least, I didn't check others). Mine was Russian, and as I told before it failed all the time at the end of measure process, holding at 99%. I have Russian Windows (it's hard to find not localized version here), anyway after one week of attempts I got it worked only when I set my Windows as American just by one click. Wow.
> 
> Note to Mac users: yes, Imprint operates fine in Parallels or Bootcamp. 2-3 times faster in Bootcamp, by the way.



Thanks guy ! I've got the same problem since many years !!! I join this forum just for tell you THANKS !


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## lolo735

Hi, sorry for my poor english, i''m french. 
Today i tried many run, software work properly, I sent curve to the HU. But when I listen with multieq on i heard only low frequency in all hp.
Is anyone here has ever heard something about that ???
I've tried V1.1 and V 2.1 software with same résult. I 've tried two drivers with same résult...
HU work correctly without multieq ! 
It's very strange ! 
Please help me i'm going mad ! 
Laurent


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