# Thanksgiving break IB install/driver comparison



## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

Over the long weekend, strakele and I fabricated our own IB wall to compare a couple of big subwoofers we had:










The first was my old subwoofer, a DB Drive K3 15D4:










It sat in a manufacturer-recommended enclosure of 1.75 cu ft. It was loud, but take a look at this graph and you can see that it actually sounded like ass.










When strakele started toying with WinISD models, he noticed the sub wanted a much larger enclosure: 32 cu ft for a qtc of .7. Then he suggested we craft our own IB wall to see if it would perform better IB, as the specs suggest. 

The project became really intriguing when we modeled the K3 against his current pair of Dayton HO10s (sub setup we know to sound great already) and my soon-to-be-installed AE SBP-15 (the successor to the highly regarded AE IB15).










We modeled the sub for strakele's ~10 cu ft trunk, since there's no room in mine yet (~13 cu ft).

As modeled, the DB Drive (yellow) has a surprisingly low F3 of 25Hz compared to the F3 of 37Hz for the AE (blue). The steep roll-off (24dB/oct) of the ported Daytons (white) is evident when contrasted with the shallow roll-off (6dB/oct) of the IB models. 










By the way, 15s are massive.


So, the graph clearly shows a flatter frequency response for the DB Drive. However, the AE has a much higher efficiency (+5dB) and lower inductance than the K3. Moreover, John (Acoustic Elegance) states that the SBP-15 was essentially crafted for infinite baffle - in vehicles, anyway. So this should be an interesting test. 

Now for the fun stuff! We took advantage of Black Friday at Home Depot and returned to the house with our loot:













Basically, these are the two contenders:










A ~15lb K3 15D4 vs. a ~25lb SBP-15. As you can plainly see, this should be quite an interesting test.


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## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

suscribed


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

So now the fun began. We picked up a 2'x4' sheet of 3/4 MDF and went to work.

First, I had to remove the enclosure for the Daytons in my trunk to see exactly what we were working with:










Using cardboard to get a template:



















Then cut the face of the baffle using our new power tools:



















Test fit:











Now, this project was intended to be an experiment, so I didn't want to do anything relatively permanent like using expanding foam or stuff like that to seal the baffle. Everything had to be removable. My rear deck is already completely sealed, so all that was necessary to seal was the baffle against the opening between the trunk and cabin. To do this, we picked up some 2.25" thick closed cell foam weather stripping. I cut a channel in it to seal all around the sides of the baffle:










3/4" MDF is pretty sturdy, and the K3 sub is light, but to do this right, I decided to use the remaining wood to reinforce around the mounting hole, making it 1.5" thick. This had to be done in 2 pieces:



















(The small arcs on the bottom are to allow wires to pass underneath)


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

The foam was then attached to all edges of the baffle. To secure it to the car, we used 4 (for now) metal brackets, 2 on bottom and 2 on top to hold the baffle securely and compress the foam to make a good seal. I used existing holes from securing a previous enclosure:



















With the thick foam on every edge, it took both of us using all our weight to compress it and screw the baffle down. 
*
IB experts... is this enough?* I know most people usually have a massively thick baffle and expanding foam and all kinds of stuff to really seal it. As stated, I don't want this to be permanent, so this seemed like a good way to do things. There aren't really any air leaks we can find, so this should be good to get an idea of how these subs perform, right?

Anyway, here it is mounted up:










Foam gasket on the front:










And finally, after many many hours (mostly waiting for batteries to charge) the sub mounted:




























Certainly not pretty, but not what we were going for. Should be able to get a good idea of how the 2 subs perform.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

This project ended up taking us about 18 hours when it should have taken half that, simply because we had a crap battery charger. 

Once everything was in, we both had a listen to the K3 from driver and passenger seat with a quick tune from the MS-8, barring the front sub at first. 


I was a bit surprised to find that the cheap, $60 sub that sounded really quite awful in its old home actually sounded extremely clean (low pass @ 80 without the front sub). Cleaner than strakele's pair of Daytons, actually. No, it wasn't quite as loud, but I found that to be a good thing. Too much bass isn't my cup of tea. It was at its happiest playing real low, from 25-50hz. In SQ, it sounded good and clean. 

Basically, my initial impression of the first tune was precise and clean, but on the quieter side, which was pretty much what I expected.

We haven't given it a real, full-fledged custom tune yet, nor installed my AE SBP-15 to compare it to, so reviews now are just tentative and probably not doing it nearly enough justice yet. We'll have to give it a few more test runs over the course of the next few days and see how it sounds then.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

millerlyte said:


> This project ended up taking us about 18 hours when it should have taken half that, simply because we had a crap battery charger.


She'll attest to how much I raged about this.. but seriously. It took FOREVER. But I guess I shouldn't have expected much more from basically a freebie charger. I couldn't take it anymore and went back and got a Lithium battery and charger. The new one fully charged both batteries in like 90 minutes, whereas the smaller one couldn't charge one in 10 hours. A closer look at the specs revealed why... the small charger put out .2A, and the big new one put out 3A.. a full *15 times stronger*. Completely unrelated, but... whatever.



Anyway, initial impressions of the K3 in IB... pretty much the same as millerlyte. We didn't give it a whole lot of time by itself before retuning with my front sub as well, but it did sound much cleaner than in its old box, and played very low, (single sub IB on 500W), lower than my Daytons (2 ported 10's on 1500W) . I'd like to give it more time by itself, but I think I can also safely say that I will always try to have a front sub in any future car/install that I do.

More detailed thoughts will be posted as we get more time listening, and in comparison to the Acoustic Elegance sub as well.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I'm really glad you guys were able to take advantage of the deals on Friday. This is extremely interesting to me. I think you are just fine with your baffle. Very cool to hear the difference in that db sub IB vs. In a box. I'm also really looking forward to hear the review of the AE sub. Good job guys.... sounded like a great time.


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## MTopper (Nov 4, 2009)

which version of winisd is that? mine doesn't look like that


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

WinISD Pro alpha. Haven't checked if there's a new version in a looooonng time. Is there a newer, better version?


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## slade1274 (Mar 25, 2008)

Fun project.... And my experience with car audio is to always double the time estimate 

Way to go- DIYMA's official "power couple".... You watch- that'll catch on


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

You're going to love the AE. I guarantee you will be getting rid of your secondary sub once you hear it.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

slade1274 said:


> Fun project.... And my experience with car audio is to always double the time estimate
> 
> Way to go- DIYMA's official "power couple".... You watch- that'll catch on


Haha thanks Ryan!



BuickGN said:


> You're going to love the AE. I guarantee you will be getting rid of your secondary sub once you hear it.


Unfortunately for me, regardless of how much I like the AE, its permanent home will be in millerlyte's car, not mine. Mine is just the test bed for now..


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

BuickGN said:


> You're going to love the AE. I guarantee you will be getting rid of your secondary sub once you hear it.


If you read the thread carefully, you would notice that both subs are mine, but being tested in strakele's car. I haven't got a front sub. Yet, at least. I'll probably be adding a front to my car as well, after hearing both IB and footwell.

I don't honestly know what cars you've heard with such a setup that you found so repulsive, but in strakele's car, which I hear nearly every day, the combination has really grown on me. As far as SQ and competitions, I think only a front sub would suffice. As far as staging goes, with both subs on it doesn't really take much away from everything up front. However, when you're really rockin' out on your own and there's some low low bass (sub 50Hz), the IB sub REALLY adds that extra rumble. You wouldn't know what you're missing until you hear it, but when you do, it can really make a song.

Good to hear some reassurance on the AE, though, I'm really looking forward to that.


Also, we didn't get to testing the AE sub today, but I think we'll be able to do so tomorrow or Wednesday and throw up another review of that.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

millerlyte said:


> If you read the thread carefully, you would notice that both subs are mine, but being tested in strakele's car. I haven't got a front sub. Yet, at least. I'll probably be adding a front to my car as well, after hearing both IB and footwell.
> 
> I don't honestly know what cars you've heard with such a setup that you found so repulsive, but in strakele's car, which I hear nearly every day, the combination has really grown on me. As far as SQ and competitions, I think only a front sub would suffice. As far as staging goes, with both subs on it doesn't really take much away from everything up front. However, when you're really rockin' out on your own and there's some low low bass (sub 50Hz), the IB sub REALLY adds that extra rumble. You wouldn't know what you're missing until you hear it, but when you do, it can really make a song.
> 
> ...


The point of my last post was to point out that the AE sub will play from below 20hz to above 250hz flat making the additional/front/future sub useless from a FR point of view. For having bass up front, I don't know how much more up front it can be with the MS8. It sounds like the sub is mounted in the dash.

The SQ comp cars I've seen either have the subs in the rear or they run large drivers in the doors and no subs. I'm sure there are some out there with the subs up front but is it really worth the trouble? I'm trying to save you some work. Maybe you need better midbass drivers. Try the AE sub, let it go up to 80 or 100hz, however high you would run your future secondary sub and I doubt you will feel the need for an up front sub. 

When I was getting into this stuff I tried all sorts of stuff to add to that upper sub/lower midbass range but when all was said and done, it was my midbass drivers in the doors not being able to keep up that caused my bass to sound like it's coming from the rear and without that snap and impact.

I agree with you that IB adds low end, low end that you don't know you're missing until you have it..... But with the right sub (the AE) it will play the upper frequencies just as well.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

Well, I sure am really looking forward to getting the sub in *my* car, especially after hearing so many raves about it. I don't have an MS-8 though, and I don't think I'll be getting that processor, so I'll have to find an alternate processor that will come close to getting it to sound like it's mounted in the dash. If I can make that happen with just a simple tune, then I suppose there isn't any need for a front sub and more money spent. But we'll see I guess.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I agree with you... from a purely FR standpoint, the front sub doesn't add anything. Any decent sub setup should be able to play up to 80Hz pretty well, and anything past that is a bonus.

We played with the K3 a lot more tonight, trying lots of different things. Without front sub, low passed at 50, 63, 70, 80, and 100Hz. It sounded clean with all of these... I was surprised how good it sounded all the way up at 100. The MS-8 does do a good job of this. It sounds like most everything is up front. Seems like it works best for short notes like drums, but for sustained notes like a bass guitar, you can start to tell it's coming from the back. 

The other part is tactile. Even if it SOUNDS like it's coming from up front, it FEELS like it's coming from behind. I don't really know what you can do to fix that, short of modifying the seats to be decoupled from the frame or something.

Not many SQ comp cars have subs up front because it instantly puts you in a much more advanced class, which is something most people don't want to do. But the guys who really go all out with rebuilt dashes and everything usually do subs up front, or as you said, huge drivers in the doors. 

And as far as extra work, it took almost as long just to make this baffle for testing as it did to make the enclosure for my front sub. I have very capable midbass drivers (H-Audio Ebony) and miller is running Usher 8945As. I have used Boston SPZ60's, the Ushers, AR6K's, Peerless SLS6's, and now the Ebony. All are very good 6-7" midbasses, but none could come close to matching the impact from a 10" in a solid enclosure.

Regardless, she'll give the AE sub plenty of time in her own car to judge whether or not there's a need for a front sub.

I have no doubt that the AE will play clean higher than we'd ever run it, and I'm excited to give it a shot after all the great stuff I've read about it. 

I do believe it will sound great. Heck, the cheap K3 sounds great. It's just when you get happy with the volume knob... you can't help but feel that the bass (that still SOUNDS like it' coming from up front) FEELS like it's coming from the back.



Anyway, as stated above, we listened to the K3 more tonight at a bunch of different crossover points, with and without (mostly without) my front sub. Clean, accurate, and low. Most of the material was our normal listening music, including tracks from AC/DC, Airbourne, Alice in Chains, Disturbed, Dream Theater, The Eagles, Evanescence, Megadeth, Metallica, and others, but also SQ demo discs from some forum members. After hearing the "slow, inaccurate" bass from the K3 in its original small sealed box, I was impressed with the accuracy on fast double bass lines.

And it really can hit the lows. My current ported enclosure is tuned pretty low to 29Hz, but the 15 definitely goes lower with more authority. It's pretty impressive.

Anyway, enough of my blabbering for now.


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

Interesting thanks for this post


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## Pitmaster (Feb 16, 2010)

Wow, you got one of those bad boys from John at AE! When did you order/receive it?


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

I ordered it in mid July, I think, and it arrived in early September. Sounds like (no pun intended) it's gonna be worth the wait though. Considering how good and clean the cheap K3 sounds, I can't even imagine what the AE's got. Should find out soon enough


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## Pitmaster (Feb 16, 2010)

Soon would be great, since we're coming up on 4 months. Guess I shoulda ordered them 2 weeks earlier! Knowing John builds the best speakers in the world is what keeps me and probably most of the other very patient customers going.....:worried: Can't wait to see the results!


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Pitmaster said:


> Soon would be great, since we're coming up on 4 months. Guess I shoulda ordered them 2 weeks earlier! Knowing John builds the best speakers in the world is what keeps me and probably most of the other very patient customers going.....:worried: Can't wait to see the results!


It took 5 months for me to get mine. Totally worth the wait but it would be nice if he said up front it could take up to 6 months. I had already sold my subs and had to buy some more to avoid going subless during the wait.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

Haha, I've been sub-less since early May! It's one of those things that you get used to very quickly because you HAVE to. It helped me focus on learning exactly what I wanted my mids and highs to sound like, and to really pay lots of attention to them without getting lost in the enjoyment of having a sub. 

That said... I can't wait til I get it installed in the Monte. Should be in just a couple weeks 



> It took 5 months for me to get mine. Totally worth the wait but it would be nice if he said up front it could take up to 6 months. I had already sold my subs and had to buy some more to avoid going subless during the wait.


When did you order yours? John made it very clear how long it would take - building, and shipping it. And he was spot-on. At least, he disclosed that information for the SBP version...


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

amitaF said:


> suscribed


Is suscribed Canadian for subscribed....:wrongforum:....:lol:


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## Pitmaster (Feb 16, 2010)

And you ordered yours during the "dark times" in the first part of the year! Great to see it worked out  Mine were supposed to be "built as normal with no backlog":laugh:


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Hey strakele

Christmas is coming, you might want to ask Santa for a new router and circle jig ....just a thought


Nice concept with the IB setup


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

trojan fan said:


> Hey strakele
> 
> Christmas is coming, you might want to ask Santa for a new router and circle jig ....just a thought
> 
> ...



Down, boy. We're working on a very limited (read: college) budget 

However I do think since we found this so enjoyable that more power tools are definitely in the works. Hopefully we can upgrade to Makita and DeWalt. Oh, and more batteries. Definitely more batteries.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

millerlyte said:


> Down, boy. We're working on a very limited (read: college) budget
> 
> However I do think since we found this so enjoyable that more power tools are definitely in the works. Hopefully we can upgrade to Makita and DeWalt. Oh, and more batteries. Definitely more batteries.


Right on....:beerchug:


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

millerlyte said:


> Haha, I've been sub-less since early May! It's one of those things that you get used to very quickly because you HAVE to. It helped me focus on learning exactly what I wanted my mids and highs to sound like, and to really pay lots of attention to them without getting lost in the enjoyment of having a sub.
> 
> That said... I can't wait til I get it installed in the Monte. Should be in just a couple weeks
> 
> ...



I ordered my IB15s in the beginning of the year and received them 5 months later. I can't even remember the month I ordered my SBP15s (which I'm giving away shortly after I review them) but it's been a few months now. I was told 4 weeks the first time and was pretty annoyed by how long it took. With the new order, I'm not worried at all because I expect it now. After hearing the IB15s for the first time I went from annoyed/pissed to wanting to order more as a backup in case something happens to these. 

These things have really great low end like most 15s will have in IB. But the big difference is how incredibly tight and punchy the bass can be. I think I said it already but at one time I ran the IB15s as a true 2-way just the subs and tweeters crossed at 2,500hz. I had to let my friends hear it because they would not believe me otherwise. These subs will play well into the midrange frequencies and they sound pretty nice doing it. Of course, beaming was a serious problem and bass was very locatable to the rear. I was just amazed during that week that I was waiting on my midbass and mids to arrive that it actually sounded ok like that.

I've run them at 350hz in with the current system just for fun and the amount of impact you get from a pair of 15s that can play those frequencies makes you feel like you're at a live concert. It's something no 6.5" is going to give you. The system was so loud and clean like that. However, it caused serious staging issues and really isn't practical unless you're into SPL. When I get rid of this MS8 which will hopefully be soon I can't wait to install a processor that will be able to save settings so I can switch back and forth from SQ to SPL. It's not something I would want to do often but it's nice to have a sub that will play so nicely in the upper frequencies. 

One thing I noticed that was different with the IB15s over all of the other IB subs I tried was they sound the same from very low volume to windshield flexing volume. It's something I could not understand and did not realize was happening until I tried these. Maybe it's the very low distortion and inductance, I don't know. I'm looking forward to your guys' review on these subs. There really aren't a whole lot out there.


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## eltico7213 (Oct 26, 2011)

Very nice!! Im liking the results as well. Since you Sid thisbeouldnt be permanent, what do you plan on doing in the end?



millerlyte said:


> Down, boy. We're working on a very limited (read: college) budget
> 
> However I do think since we found this so enjoyable that more power tools are definitely in the works. Hopefully we can upgrade to Makita and DeWalt. Oh, and more batteries. Definitely more batteries.


Ahh… the college budget. Im hurting the same way… with a full DD setup and half finished fiberglassed doors. :x.

Screw dewalt. Get milwawkee!!! I have a bag of power tools all from.them and never looked back. Their 18v batts charge in about 10-30 min. And I change them almost once a month. So long lasting!


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

eltico7213 said:


> Very nice!! Im liking the results as well. Since you Sid thisbeouldnt be permanent, what do you plan on doing in the end?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Screw Milwawkee. Get HILTI!!!!! 

Kelvin


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## slade1274 (Mar 25, 2008)

Bosch


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## eltico7213 (Oct 26, 2011)

Big red! Lol


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

millerlyte said:


> I ordered it in mid July, I think, and it arrived in early September.


Damn, and I thought 4-6 weeks ordering out of the sears catalog as a kid sucked.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

I've been using my Makita Li Ion for 5 years now and for a couple years I used it professionally and it's still going strong. The batteries charge in under 15 minutes which is a huge plus. Using it as a screw gun they will last all day so you never have to wait on batteries. It's worth it to spend the extra money on good batteries.


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## eltico7213 (Oct 26, 2011)

My screw gun, dremel, sawzall,and even flashlight all use the same 12v battle from milwawkee, and it takes forever to drain the batteries! Even more, my gun gives out 100lb-ft of torque off the 12v 

I think im a LITTLE biased since my cousin is the regional event manager of milwawkee. Lol


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

subwoofery said:


> Screw Milwawkee. Get HILTI!!!!!
> 
> Kelvin


@ double the price....


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

BuickGN - wow.. That's amazing how high your subs play. Definitely can't wait to try this sucker out. How come you plan on getting rid of the SBPs after you test them? Convinced your current ones will be better? Also, I'm with you on needing something more than the MS-8...

And yeah, circle jig and router are definitely on the list. Considering we're not doing any industrial size projects, I think we'll be alright with the less expensive tools..

Side note.. I can't believe they haven't made the batteries an industry standard. Every brand having a slightly different design is stupid.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

strakele said:


> Definitely can't wait to try this sucker out.


I think we can test out the SBP in just a few hours... 



> I've been using my Makita Li Ion for 5 years now and for a couple years I used it professionally and it's still going strong. The batteries charge in under 15 minutes which is a huge plus. Using it as a screw gun they will last all day so you never have to wait on batteries. It's worth it to spend the extra money on good batteries.


The only brands I've used are Ryobi, DeWalt and Makita. My (well, strakele's now  ) 3-year old18v DeWalt drill has been dropped, the battery has been through hell and back and until this past weekend, I don't remember the last time it was charged. She works like new and keeps a charge forever. The only better drill I'd get is an impact drill. 

DeWalt works like a Makita for a lesser price and will do anything you ask it to without complaint.

So while we're on the topic of brands, I'm a loyal DeWalt fan.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

strakele said:


> BuickGN - wow.. That's amazing how high your subs play. Definitely can't wait to try this sucker out. How come you plan on getting rid of the SBPs after you test them? Convinced your current ones will be better? Also, I'm with you on needing something more than the MS-8...
> 
> And yeah, circle jig and router are definitely on the list. Considering we're not doing any industrial size projects, I think we'll be alright with the less expensive tools..
> 
> Side note.. I can't believe they haven't made the batteries an industry standard. Every brand having a slightly different design is stupid.


Theres no doubt the SBP is the better sub. I ordered another pair because I wanted to put the lighter IB15 in the GN. I've axed that idea as 17lbs of weight removal is hard to find. If theres an audible difference I might keep the SBPs and get rid of the IBs instead. The acura is such a pig already it probably won't matter.

Good luck with the install, I hope you like the sub as much as I do.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Ah ok. With your current install, do you have a ski pass that you leave open? I feel like there's a lot of pressure being built up in the small space between the front of the baffle and the back of the seats.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

eltico7213 said:


> Very nice!! Im liking the results as well. Since you Sid thisbeouldnt be permanent, what do you plan on doing in the end?


This was originally just to use my car to test miller's subs until she's ready to install. I had assumed it'd just be for a week or 2, then I'd put my enclosure back in. But depending on how this whole test turns out.. things could be permanently changing in my car too.

I have been wanting to reduce the weight of my current setup though (enclosure and subs is over 50lbs). Honestly, the only real thing holding me back from diving right in to IB is how to make it look good while keeping the sub protected from crap in the trunk. I love the simple flat back of my current enclosure.. I don't have to worry about anything. But if I went IB, I'd have to do something to keep the sub safe. Not exactly sure what I'd tl do to make it look cool and be functional. That, and the fact that loading the trunk full of stuff (doesn't happen often, but it does happen) will have a substantial effect on the response.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

strakele said:


> Ah ok. With your current install, do you have a ski pass that you leave open? I feel like there's a lot of pressure being built up in the small space between the front of the baffle and the back of the seats.













I tune and get judged with seat up bc it sounds much better. with the arm rest down, it starts to sound kind of boomy. 
There is only 300rms going to both subs...but the subs are 90+db efficient

But I did even go through the trouble of removing the backseat, pulling the cover off. cutting open more area where the arm rest goes to allow it to breathe easier. then covered that area in grill metal mesh and black grill cloth.

my girls like using the arm rest cup holders when they ride in the car, so it wasnt an option to remove it:laugh:


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Yeah my rear seats are stock with the metal backing. How are those subs vented? PM sent..


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

trojan fan said:


> @ double the price....


German engineering and manufacturing  

Kelvin


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

Mic10is said:


> I tune and get judged with seat up bc it sounds much better. with the arm rest down, it starts to sound kind of boomy.
> There is only 300rms going to both subs...but the subs are 90+db efficient
> 
> But I did even go through the trouble of removing the backseat, pulling the cover off. cutting open more area where the arm rest goes to allow it to breathe easier. then covered that area in grill metal mesh and black grill cloth.
> ...



Wow. If you told me you had dual 15s in your car, I'd have never believed they could fit! That's amazing. 

At least with the K3, there was hardly a difference (albeit a small one) in the way it sounded regardless of rear seat position. With the arm rest down it only rattled less, obviously. With the seats down, there was only a slight change, and if anything we thought it to be less "boomy."


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Here's mine from the inside. I've since removed the plastic liner and the cloth that protects the armrest.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

So do you generally listen with the armrest up or down? What's your normal crossover point for them and where do you have the sub level on the MS-8?


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

strakele said:


> So do you generally listen with the armrest up or down? What's your normal crossover point for them and where do you have the sub level on the MS-8?


99% of the time the armrest is down. I try not to have passengers when I can help it. With it up, some bass is lost but it's most noticeable in the upper frequencies (60hz and above).

I stay between 80-90hz. Below 80, there's too much volume from the midbass and it vibrates my leg which ruins the stage for me. Above 90 and you can start hearing the sub behind you. Bass is overall still up front but if you turn your head you can tell where it's coming from. 

I try and adjust my amp so that I have to run the sub level 3/4 of the way up. The MS8 boosts midbass when the sub level is boosted so it's a way of getting a little more midbass.

Also, I saw you have a lot of power, be very careful with the AE in IB. You will probably never need to send it more than 100w. I've accidentally hit it with a full 1,000w at 18hz for about half a second. They obviouisly have something built in to to stop them from commiting suicide.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

BuickGN said:


> Also, I saw you have a lot of power, be very careful with the AE in IB. You will probably never need to send it more than 100w. I've accidentally hit it with a full 1,000w at 18hz for about half a second. They obviouisly have something built in to to stop them from commiting suicide.


Maybe now isn't the time to tell you that we have it at 800w right now, and I'll have about 500 to it... 

Also, we installed it last night. Ended up having to cut some of the support out to make room for it. But we got it in and played it at 200Hz (since MS-8 will not allow more than that), 100Hz and 80Hz (working backwards from where the K3 left off).

Lots more listening is in order though, so reviews pending for now. But... just... wow. That's all I have to say at the moment...

Also, how do you "accidentally" give it 1000w and hit it with 18Hz? I'm curious.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

millerlyte said:


> Maybe now isn't the time to tell you that we have it at 800w right now, and I'll have about 500 to it...
> 
> Also, we installed it last night. Ended up having to cut some of the support out to make room for it. But we got it in and played it at 200Hz (since MS-8 will not allow more than that), 100Hz and 80Hz (working backwards from where the K3 left off).
> 
> ...


Trying to find a noise problem with the sub amp all the way up, radio up and accidentally switch it to the test tone CD.

These things will hit their mechanical limit at 200w @ 20hz. 500w is the thermal limit, don't tell John. Unless you're playing only high frequencies I'll guarantee you have less than 300w going to it. One person actually measured the power his IB15s were getting during loud SQ listening showed 90w. 

In fact, just modeled it since I've always just listened to John's advice on power limits... At 175w and 20hz they're at xmax. At 300w and 20hz they're at xmech.

At 500w it's at the mechanical limit at 27hz and xmax at 35hz.

At 800w (300 past it's thermal limit) it hits xmech at 34hz and xmax at 42hz.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

It definitely didn't sound perfectly ideal with low frequencies so far, but we've yet to mess with it some more. Thanks for the info


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## Salami (Oct 10, 2007)

millerlyte said:


> Also, how do you "accidentally" give it 1000w and hit it with 18Hz? I'm curious.



Sounds more like murder than suicide.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

millerlyte said:


> It definitely didn't sound perfectly ideal with low frequencies so far, but we've yet to mess with it some more. Thanks for the info


At least you're testing the limits. I get worried giving the pair under 200w each. I'm pretty gentle on them most of the time because I know it would take another 5 months to replace them if something happened to them. Anyone who rides in the car could care less about the SQ but they want to hear what the 15s will do and these subs always surprise me when I turn the gains up and let them go.

So any updates?


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

No updates today, but the weekend will most surely have its share. I think we'll have a lot of quality hours with the AE over the next couple days, so we should have a pretty thorough review of it shortly.


This is so wrong though, strakele gets to have my sub way before I do :blank:


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

millerlyte said:


> Maybe now isn't the time to tell you that we have it at 800w right now, and I'll have about 500 to it...


We have the "potential" for 850W on it. I guarantee with how the MS-8 level matches and whatnot, it isn't getting more that 150. "Testing the limits" is far from what we are doing right now. She'd have my head on a platter if her sub roasted before it even got in her car...

We only got a brief listening session in last night before it was time for food and homework, so I don't want to say too much yet.

As stated, we started it at 200Hz and it was very quick and punchy (using the same tune from the K3, no recalibration) and the sensitivity difference between the 2 was quite noticeable.

We'll have much more time over the weekend to play with it at all different crossover points, with and without front sub, and any other things we think of.

also i should not leave my account logged in when ally is in the room. i also say the same stuff she said in her last 4 posts. i am a fool


^^ Jesus.. can't get up for 30 freakin seconds...


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

strakele said:


> We have the "potential" for 850W on it. I guarantee with how the MS-8 level matches and whatnot, it isn't getting more that 150. "Testing the limits" is far from what we are doing right now. She'd have my head on a platter if her sub roasted before it even got in her car...
> 
> We only got a brief listening session in last night before it was time for food and homework, so I don't want to say too much yet.
> 
> ...


Lol. You're much nicer than I would have been (millerlyte). At work if you turn your back for a second without locking the computer they will e-mail the CEO from your account. Or you send the whole team of 26 people a coming out of the closet e-mail as I apparently did lol.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

lol. I had only about 30 seconds to jump on and troll. Funny thing is, I left the screen directly on his post and he looked right past it. Wondering when he'll realize. Speaking of heads on a platter...  

But naturally this now means war between us. I'm sure I'll soon be telling everybody that I cry myself to sleep each night wishing I had a system even half as good as strakele's...


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## Salami (Oct 10, 2007)

millerlyte said:


> lol. I had only about 30 seconds to jump on and troll.


What are you taking turns using the computer? 




Listen young lady you need to go do your home work right now and stop playing on that damn internet!!!!!


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

Haha, nope. I'm on my laptop, he's on his desktop. He left to get some water, and I couldn't resist. If anyone needs to be doing homework right now it's strakele. But he's on diyma instead.

Actually, I do have finals I need to study for, but... but that's irrelevant!


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## Salami (Oct 10, 2007)

Grayson stop ****ing around with that damn computer and finish your math home work!!!!


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

This is going to make me sound old but if the internet was what it is today when I was in highschool and college I never would have graduated. It's hard enough at work to not constantly check the forums.


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## Salami (Oct 10, 2007)

Effin work keeps getting the way of the damn internet. 



Sorry for the train wreck.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

millerlyte said:


> I'm sure I'll soon be telling everybody that I cry myself to sleep each night wishing I had a system even half as good as strakele's...


> Implying you don't already



Salami said:


> Listen young lady you need to go do your home work right now and stop playing on that damn internet!!!!!


> Don't be fooled, there are no women on the internet.



Salami said:


> Grayson stop ****ing around with that damn computer and finish your math home work!!!!


Thanks, Dad...



Salami said:


> Effin work keeps getting the way of the damn internet.
> 
> 
> Sorry for the train wreck.


Haha yeah.


Now, I guess we better go out and listen to this sub some more so we can get back on topic!


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

So we finally spent a few days toying with the AE.




























She's a beast. 

Anyway, we had it low passed at 200hz, 100hz, 80hz, 70hz and 50hz. We reviewed the 200hz test a few posts above.

At 100hz, it was still quite loud, very clear and punchy and I thought the double-bass was significantly less muffled at this frequency. Don't remember much else though, this was several days ago.

At 80hz it sounded like it was most at home. Everything was extremely clear and surprisingly accurate in all respects. It wasn't muddy whatsoever down into the low-lows, somewhat unlike the K3 (but it wasn't as loud as the K3). The rumble in the 40-50hz gave me some serious chills. Just excellent.

At 70hz, there was a very noticeable drop in the overall loudness from 80hz. Still clear and precise, but it lost a lot of punch from there on out. This flatness, however, was just due to the MS-8 level-matching, and manually bringing it up again helped a small bit. Because I won't have an MS-8 and will be tuning it via the CD7200 (for the time being), I'll probably have it crossed lower and it will sound even better than it did at 80hz with the MS-8. We'll see.

And at 50hz, naturally, there wasn't much to it at all. It was most up front here, but it sacrificed impact to do so. Unfortunately it's hard to test the sub at what it's supposed to do best when the MS-8 was essentially keeping it repressed the whole time. I'll be willing to bet that it will have regained loudness and impact as well as being more up-front with my head unit processor. 

But even so, it definitely impressed me with how consistently clean and precise this thing was at all frequencies. The double-bass hit was the clearest I've heard in recent memory. Even with fast-paced double-bass (like in Metallica's _One_), every single punch was naturally audible and perfectly clear. The AE did noticeably outperform the K3 in the end, however, I wouldn't say it was by some substantial amount either. I wasn't expecting the $60 sub to compete so well with the likes of AE, but I can't deny what I heard. 

Anyway, for a quick test, it was great to hear the two subs for a while at numerous frequencies. In the end, though, I'm certainly glad the AE will be making a permanent home of my car in a few weeks  Now I know for sure it'll sound excellent, and we may not have even tapped its true potential yet. Needless to say, I'm excited.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I agree that the sub sounded best crossed at 80. Nice and punchy and right up front.

But I will say that while the MS-8 makes certain parts of doing this really nice and easy, there are times where I wish I had more manual control. It's hard to say sometimes whether a certain aspect of the performance is due to the woofer itself or the way the auto tune worked. 

So after giving both subs a few days and lots of tests off the MS-8, I think I'm going to try them both being run off my 9887 and see how they sound when I know exactly what adjustments are being made.

In all though, I'll echo her comments in that the AE sub sounded clearer and more accurate than the K3, while the K3 was able to play lower at a higher volume, I guess due to it's higher excursion limits. 

We'll see if anything changes with the switch to head unit processing.

Fun test so far. I think there might be some permanent changes coming in my car..


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

What is the xmax and/or xmech of the K3? All I could find is almost an inch and it doesn't state if it's peak to peak or not.

The IB15 is designed to play flat with very little eq instead of being bottom heavy as a lot of subs are in IB. When doing comparisons I use the crossover on my amp and leave the MS8 out of the equation. It seems like it neuters the subs especially as you play around with higher crossover points. I'm seriously thinking of going with a bass knob for control of the sub and leaving the MS8 out of it.

What subsonic filter point and slope were you using? How did you determine the limits?


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Great feedback on the test. Can't wait to hear it!


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

BuickGN said:


> What is the xmax and/or xmech of the K3? All I could find is almost an inch and it doesn't state if it's peak to peak or not.
> 
> The IB15 is designed to play flat with very little eq instead of being bottom heavy as a lot of subs are in IB. When doing comparisons I use the crossover on my amp and leave the MS8 out of the equation. It seems like it neuters the subs especially as you play around with higher crossover points. I'm seriously thinking of going with a bass knob for control of the sub and leaving the MS8 out of it.
> 
> What subsonic filter point and slope were you using? How did you determine the limits?


There's not much info on the K3, unfortunately. Strakele and I both saw it was doing about an inch of xmax at certain points, but I can't find much online. 

Agreed with the MS8 flattening the subs. Kind of a bummer, but the head unit test should resolve any issues. 

The filter was simply left at default on the MS8 (20 @ 12 db/oct) for both subs.. 



> Great feedback on the test. Can't wait to hear it!


Thanks. I think you'll really appreciate the AE. Can't wait for you to finally hear something in my car.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

As she said, we're not sure if the xmax spec on the K3 is one way or peak to peak. The surround on the K3 is quite a bit bigger than the SBP15. If I had to guess, I'd say that the .97 inches listed by DB Drive is a one way xmech spec, with linear xmax being less than that. It's only a single slug magnet, so the coil can only travel so far before being outside the (what I would guess to be) a fairly narrow peak on the BL curve.

I've also fiddled briefly with crossovers on the amps, but at least with mine, it's so imprecise. You have a little pot with like 280 degrees of motion, with no labels except for min and max, so anywhere in between, it's anyone's guess. Most of these aren't a linear increase either.

So I do think I'll be giving them both some time running off the 9887, and see if our thoughts change at all.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Last night, just to be sure we'll be giving these subs a fair test, I bypassed the MS-8 and ran the system (rear sub only) off my Alpine CDA-9887. No EQ was applied to the low end. Just set T/A.

At first, I forgot one set of RCA extensions necessary to do this, so just for funsies I ran just the sub and AR3Ks. Sub up to 200Hz and mids taking over at 315. It actually worked quite well to our surprise. 

Anyway, after getting the midbasses playing, I set the crossover between the SBP15 and Ebony at 100Hz. This is at least half an octave higher then I would normally use. We sat down with my freshly downloaded Focal demo discs and had a listen. 

Wow. It was awesome. The extremely clean low bass response, punchy and dynamic midbass, and the rest of the system working together with very little processing, combined with the impressive range of well recorded music that we hadn't heard before was almost magical. I found myself just sitting there looking at miller with a big grin on my face after a series of powerful timpani hits. It was freakin cool.

Without a front subwoofer, I'd be perfectly happy with the system like this. It has made a believer out of me regarding the increased dynamics and volume from using a higher crossover point. For daily driving, it's great. For pure SQ competition listening, I do still feel that a lower crossover would be necessary. Short bass hits like drums sound like they're on the dash, but more sustained notes like a bass guitar can still sound like they're coming from the back. It's not buzzes or rattles dragging it back. I'm hearing the actual tones. I don't care what the science says about what frequencies I should be able to localize - that only applies in an anechoic environment. It's also likely that another person wouldn't really notice it, and I do just because I'm listening for it.

Anyway, like I said, it's really only an issue for dedicated SQ listening with the car parked. I doubt it's an issue once you get moving.

So overall after switching back to the 9887, I'm very impressed with the AE sub. We'll also be trying it crossed at 80Hz. I wish I had a way to test it with both front and rear sub without using auto tune. I think using the front sub to keep the bass guitars and other sustained bass lines anchored up front will make it just right to my ears. Can't wait.

Interested to see how the K3 compares now.


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

Nice write-up. I hope we can get together again so I can hear it.


BTW...I've got an SSA ICON 18 coming in


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Pretty awesome testing you guys have done. Since you guys last sat in my car at Erin's GTG, I have gotten rid of the L8's and I'm running my IB12's up to my "tiny" 5.25's (but I also added an MS8 to the fold). I have the crossover set at 100hz too. You are right in everything you said. I have zero rattles, great impact, and ALMOST everything comes from the front. I have found instruments that have extremely low fundamentals (enough that the mids aren't covering much of the information) have the sound still pull to the back. Since I've "dumbed down" this install because of how little I drive the car, I'm leaving it be, but I totally understand wanting to get your crossover point at least down to 80hz.

BTW, coming from a guy who's favorite band is Metallica, I have a few song suggestions. I LOVE "I_Human" from the S&M album and "For Whom the Bell Tolls" (alternating between kick-drums and cymbal crashes at the intro is AWESOME on system that has good/even FR). Avenged Sevenfold's "Welcome to the Family" also has great kick-drum action. AS got the drummer from Dream Theater to play on their newest album after their drummer passed, so most everything is good there.

Props again to you guys for trying and posting this.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Thanks Al! I'd like to hear yours again with the addition of an 18. What are the enclosure plans?



John, thanks for the comments. Too bad you had to lose the L8's and the Denon combo, but if it never got used, then it's for the best. Sounds like you know exactly what I'm talking about though. I'd be interested to hear some more comments from you about the IB12's. I'm considering a pair of 12's for my own install once miller takes the SBP15 back. In my car, 2 15's isn't going to fit, so it'll be 1 15 or 2 12's. The 12's will have a little bit more cone area, but be quite a bit more expensive. Feel free to PM me.

The whole S&M album is great... one of our favorites. And were you talking about the album version of For Whom the Bell Tolls? Either way, cool song. Same with Avenged Sevenfold's newer stuff. I've seen them live with Mike from Dream Theater, and we just recently saw Dream Theater live with their new drummer. Awesome.

Other great songs for kick drum:

Blonde, Bad, and Beautiful - Airbourne
The Dark Eternal Night - Dream Theater
One - Metallica (at the beginning, then the double kick starting around 4 mins)
Take the Power Back - Rage Against the Machine
No Excuses - Alice in Chains
Devil's Swing - Godsmack
Wake Me Up When September Ends - Green Day
Animals - Nickelback
Thunderstruck - AC/DC

Those are some of my go-to tracks for kick drum.


If there's anything else you guys would like to see tested with these subs while we're at it, let us know and we'll see if we can make it happen.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

strakele said:


> The whole S&M album is great... one of our favorites. And were you talking about the album version of For Whom the Bell Tolls? Either way, cool song. Same with Avenged Sevenfold's newer stuff. I've seen them live with Mike from Dream Theater, and we just recently saw Dream Theater live with their new drummer. Awesome.
> 
> Other great songs for kick drum:
> 
> ...


I was referencing the one off "Ride the Lightening" but the one off S&M is great too (like you said, the entire thing is awesome).

The one's I "bolded" are another two of my favorites that I always forget to suggest to people. If you're looking for something a bit different that still has some good drums, try Them Crooked Vultures "No One Loves Me & Neither Do I". It is well recorded and just jams out about half-way through.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

Good to see you appreciate our project John.  Metallica is fantastic, especially the S & M album. To add to the list, I'd throw in _Outlaw Torn_ and _Cure_ (midbass! Punch! Snap!)

I'm basically in agreement with everything strakele said. Even from the passenger seat (he never did let me hear it from the driver's side :mean, it sounded so pure, and... well, what I'd imagine to be virtually perfect. Beautiful sound, up and down. And only at 100hz! Buick, I completely understand what you meant when you said these things can really play high. Can't wait to hear it lower, though.
We played a few songs using only the AR3's and the AE, and it was still so punchy. Not much was lost, and without the MS-8 killing everything off, it got LOUD! It stayed well up front for the better part of most frequencies as well. Amazing, truly. 

Listening to the AE last night definitely made me realize why one would feel no need for a front sub at all. But I still maintain, despite hearing everything I heard so far, that nothing quite compares to having a sub up front. To understand what I mean, you simply have to hear a car with a good front sub setup. Nothing quite like it.

Also - somebody please convince strakele that he DOESN'T want two IB 12s _and_ a front sub... please... he won't listen to me.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

millerlyte said:


> I'm basically in agreement with everything strakele said. Even from the passenger seat (he never did let me hear it from the driver's side :mean, it sounded so pure, and... well, what I'd imagine to be virtually perfect.
> 
> *You never asked *
> 
> Also - somebody please convince strakele that he DOESN'T want two IB 12s _and_ a front sub... please... he won't listen to me.


Gotta make sure mine is better than yours in every respect  But really, I just like the look of 2 better than 1. I've always had pairs of subs. And since 2 15's won't fit..


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Also, does anyone have any experience with the newer model Fi IB3 15's? Feel free to PM.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

strakele said:


> Also, does anyone have any experience with the newer model Fi IB3 15's? Feel free to PM.


PM _Eviling_... He has the 18" one. 

Kelvin


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

I don't think Ray has even installed the 18s yet, but perhaps I'm wrong. If so, we'd be glad to hear his opinion on them here.

Lots of research has been done the past few days for his new sub(s). I won't say much since it'll be his stuff, but it seems he'll be going with two 15s and a pretty neat looking way of installing them. I keep telling him I don't know how he's going to be able to fit them, but Grayson is never wrong, so it must be possible. 

My argument was although it will be more efficient at higher volumes, a lot of the time, and likely for SQ, a pair of them won't be worth the cost. And since he has his front sub as well, there's just no need for that much bass.

I'm usually wrong, though. Hell, I'll probably end up liking it in the end. 

I digress. We'll be reinstalling the K3 tomorrow or Wednesday for a final test through a 9887 tune, and I'll take the SBP 15 to be installed for good in my car, and that'll be the end of this experiment. For now, at least.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

millerlyte said:


> I don't think Ray has even installed the 18s yet, but perhaps I'm wrong. If so, we'd be glad to hear his opinion on them here.
> 
> Lots of research has been done the past few days for his new sub(s). I won't say much since it'll be his stuff, but it seems he'll be going with two 15s and a pretty neat looking way of installing them. I keep telling him I don't know how he's going to be able to fit them, but Grayson is never wrong, so it must be possible.
> 
> ...


1st, there is no replacement for displacement-so you can almost never have too many subs

and second

my 2 15s are in a Lancer pretty much identical to his--so they definitely fit


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

I suppose you're right, but after hearing both subs (front and rear), and then to add yet another one, I can't imagine that much bass sounding good. I guess we'll see what the MS-8 will do with it, since it does like to kill off bass on its own. No doubt the extra displacement will serve well in regards to efficiency, and they'll never bottom out, but playing it at full volume, as efficient as they may be, seems like it would still be too much on the low end. If he had a pair of 12s, I could roll with that, but... I'm sure I'll be saying just the opposite once I hear it, but until then I can't really help but be skeptic. 


Also, we have spent so much time looking at the pics of your IB setup, trying to fathom how it could have been possible considering the measurements of Grayson's trunk wall and yours were assumed to be the same. It took us a few days to figure out how you did it


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> my 2 15s are in a Lancer pretty much identical to his--so they definitely fit


It took me a long time staring at that picture to realize you got it to look good by hiding the mounting flange. I measure that opening at a max of 30" or just under, so I kept wondering "how the f did he fit 2 15's in here with space in the middle?" lol but I finally looked close enough to see that the flush mount baffle hides the flange so all you see is the surround and cone. Good idea.

And I keep trying to tell her.. more subs doesn't necessarily mean more bass - it means less distorted bass.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

OK, just to clarify, Grayson, I know it means less distortion. But you yourself said you wanted even more bass out of it. That's what I was getting at.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

i'll get GaryMac to reply sometime. I did an Arc12 in the side corner of his Acura TL. retuned it as best I could with the MS8...and of course it lacked any real impact or definition.
But He swore that day, which was like June or something, that he was going to be the one to figure it out and get the MS8 to sound good on subbass... He was confident that he was going to do it....

fast Forward to October--he Pm'd me and asked me what processor to get bc he finally admitted " i was right"...and he was sick of how the bass sounded.

So try all you want to fight it and fix it, but tight,punchy and very controlled bass is not synonymous with the MS8.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Agreed. So how do I get my hands on a Helix?


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

Seconded. That's pretty much the only reason I will never buy an MS-8. I like to feel the punch, but it's just never really there. Which is unfortunate in a system like Grayson's, because the difference is almost night and day between the 9887 and the MS-8. Much preference to the simple little head unit.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

strakele said:


> Agreed. So how do I get my hands on a Helix?


you wouldnt know what to do with 360 degree subwoofer phase control!!!

muhahahahahahahahahaha

Talk to Erin


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## iD Z24 (Aug 6, 2008)

I am happy with my iB315s.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Great. Would you mind sending me a PM with some more detailed thoughts about them? And maybe a couple pics of your install?


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Well, I'm definitely glad we went back and tried the subs with no MS-8 processing. Very interesting to see how they truly perform.

My thoughts on the AE:

Very good. Does whatever you want it to. Plays low, plays high, and does so loud and clean. Outstanding impact and transient response. Tried it at multiple crossover points with and without the front sub. As mentioned earlier in the thread, it made a believer out of me regarding high crossover points. If I had this sub in my car permanently, daily driver mode (non competition mode, assuming no front sub) would be low passed at 100Hz. Playing up to 100 rather than 50, 63, or even 80 added a nice sharpness and distinction to drum hits that far outweighed the times when certain sustained notes would pull a bit to the back. With the front sub, crossed at 80, impact was just fantastic.

So after having the privilege of driving around with the AE for a while, today was the day I had to give it back to be installed in its permanent home, which meant trying the DB Drive again. I was expecting to feel the same about it as I did running off the MS-8. But no. Sans MS-8 processing, the K3 didn't seem to play as low, loud, or clean as the AE. Granted, the AE (being single 4 ohm) did have more power available than the K3 (dual 4 wired to 8) but my amp still produces 500W at 8 ohms (more than the RMS rating of the sub) so I don't think that's the issue. I had to have the 9887 sub output 5 clicks higher to approach the same output I had from the AE SBP15. But even then, the impact wasn't there when crossed high, and it didn't sound as quick and detailed as the AE. It wasn't bad, and I got used to it, but it clearly did not perform as well. This mattered much less once I turned the front sub on and just used it to fill in the lowest end stuff, however.

So... my conclusions from this test:

1. IB sounds good and I'm probably going to do a more permanent install in my car after having done this.
2. A $300 sub outperformed an $80 sub. Shocker.. 
3. The MS-8 significantly narrowed the performance gap between the two subs
4. If you're testing what a speaker really sounds like, start out with no EQ/autotune.
5. High sub crossover points can be good with a low inductance woofer.
6. Processing can make a cheap speaker sound better.
7. Sensitivity ratings matter.
8. I shouldn't worry so much about how it models
9. Building stuff is fun

Unfortunately, millerlyte wasn't here for the second test of the K3, but I'm sure she'll post her thoughts on the AE with no processing. 

Other than that, that's probably about it for this thread. Sorry it didn't turn out to be a ground breaking discovery of how some cheapo sub outperforms the boner brand IB sub. But hey, if you have some good processing, you can make a cheapo sub sound almost as good for around 1/4 of the price. That's gotta count for something...


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

I don't have anything more detailed to offer, strakele summed it up nicely and I find myself in agreement with his thoughts. I was very impressed with my SBP15, namely when the MS-8 was out of the picture. At 100hz, the sub hit noticeably harder than at 80hz and it sounded better that way. I too was surprised to find myself at that conclusion. Certainly best left that way for my daily driving, as strakele said, but once I start competing, it'll be brought down a little (with maybe the exception of american radio... ) 

So, to somewhat add to strakele's conclusions:

1. We confirmed that a $60 sub is inferior in SQ to a $300, IB-specific sub in an IB enclosure. In case you were wondering.
2. the MS-8 has a knack for impeding the true potential of some great drivers, so be careful
3. It may take some work, but it is definitely possible to get the two sounding somewhat similar despite major differences.
4. I finally get to have a sub in my car after 8 months. I am happy with this.
5. We have confirmed through faultless, professional testing that the AE SBP15 is the best sub ever and that's the end of that. 
6. We tested what it will sound like in an IB enclosure before permanently installing it in one - always a good idea.
7. strakele does not like to share the jigsaw. 
8. I'm usually wrong, and strakele is always right. This project was a good idea after all.

Also, since we apparently have failed at being thorough enough to post the specs of both drivers, this is what we were really comparing:

Db Drive K3 15D-4

Fs...........21.27hz
Qts..........0.62
Qms.........3.98
Qes..........0.73
Vas..........185.47 L
Xmax.......24.64 mm
Re............7.63 Ohm
Pe............450/900
SPL..........85.7 dB


Acoustic Elegance SBP15-4

Fs............21.30hz
Qts..........0.41
Qms........5.35
Qes.........0.45
Vas.........338 L
Xmax.......18 mm
Re............2.7 Ohm
Pe............500 (continuous) (thermal)
Sd.............825 sqcm
Le.............0.3 mH
Bl..............11.1 Tm
SPL...........90.65 dB



We did get to have another listener hear for himself how the AE sounded for a few minutes, so if he would like to post his thoughts on it as well, we would all love to hear.

Other than that, that's our test. It was fun. Now I get to have my sub when I come back from break! I'll post a few pics of its permanent home once it's finished


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

millerlyte said:


> 4. I finally get to have a sub in my car after 8 months. I am happy with this.
> 5. We have confirmed through faultless, professional testing that the AE SBP15 is the best sub ever and that's the end of that.
> 7. strakele does not like to share the jigsaw.
> 8. I'm usually wrong, and strakele is always right. This project was a good idea after all.
> ...


*Sweet!*


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

I am so excited to see the finished product. If it ends up looking anything like what was discussed with Mark yesterday... damn. Just damn. It's going to be one hell of an enclosure for one hell of a sub  Can't wait for you to hear it.

Grayson says his favorite is #8 on my list... I am rather fond of #5 though.


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## GouRiki (Apr 9, 2010)

What are your thoughts on a 13w7ae IB? 









(in a corolla)


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

GouRiki said:


> What are your thoughts on a 13w7ae IB?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There was a post recently on a 13W7 IB and it was very positive. I ran my 12W6 IB as well and it was very nice, better than the same sub in the same car sealed, ported, and bandpassed.


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## GouRiki (Apr 9, 2010)

I know. I was just wondering what they thought of it because I know they (at least strakele) have heard Jon's car with the 13w7 IB.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Well, I for one loved it!


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I was also very impressed with Jons 13W7 in IB. That thing is a beast.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

I only heard it for a few minutes, but what I heard was impressive as well.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

strakele said:


> I was also very impressed with Jons 13W7 in IB. That thing is a beast.


I know its almost impossible to compare at this point but any opinions on the JL vs AE?


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

Since I can't offer a very valid opinion of my own in comparing the two (it's been too long), I asked WinISD (not Pro, cause I'm oldschool) what it thought of them. 










The JL wants about a third less airspace than the AE for a Qtc of .7, and it works out better in this way as Jon's Corolla has a trunk volume of 12.3 cu ft, while mine has ~15 cu ft (probably more like 10 or 11, and 13 cu ft, respectively, if accounting for space taken up by audio equipment). Still not a large difference if he had the AE and I had the JL, but worth a note.

Yeah, models be damned, judge drivers based on what they actually sound like, etc etc, but there's no harm in putting up a quick model to get a taste of how they might compare.

Only one way to really find out


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

millerlyte said:


> Since I can't offer a very valid opinion of my own in comparing the two (it's been too long), I asked WinISD (not Pro, cause I'm oldschool) what it thought of them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




WiniSD, is good but not the greatest, it will not show you what the sub will do in a real world enviroment. if you have Excel on your computer I can point you in the right direction for some programs for FREE that you can see actual cabin gain, and many other options.


Only programs i like and I own Bassbox Pro, Winisd Pro, LEAP, and others.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

DAT said:


> WiniSD, is good but not the greatest, it will not show you what the sub will do in a real world enviroment. if you have Excel on your computer I can point you in the right direction for some programs for FREE that you can see actual cabin gain, and many other options.
> 
> 
> Only programs i like and I own Bassbox Pro, Winisd Pro, LEAP, and others.


Please share or PM  Thanks, 

Kelvin


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

Agreed, please share.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

BuickGN said:


> I know its almost impossible to compare at this point but any opinions on the JL vs AE?


Hard to say, since it was a different car with different music and a different tune. But it was punchy and played low. There wasn't anything on the playlist I was listening to that had super fast kick drum or stuff like that, so I couldn't really tell you about transient response. But it was nice and clean, and could really get low.


As for modeling, I've been meaning to check out some of the other more advanced programs out there. I've heard about BBP as another popular one, and just recently read about Akabak or something like that that's supposed to have a ton of options.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

Sorry to bring this back from the dead. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on integration of the SBP15 with the front stage, using the ms-8. Particularly, since ms-8 does not time align to the sub, were you able to get the sub to play up front, and if yes, how did you do it? Thx.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Yes, we got the sub to sound up front with the MS-8. It just does it..nothing special done on my part to be honest. It's best on short notes like a drum. With sustained notes like a bass guitar you could still kinda tell it was in the back just from the feeling.


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## CDT FAN (Jul 25, 2012)

I have an MS-8 and one AE12, which I have yet to get either installed yet. Jeez, it takes me forever to do anything. Since the MS-8 tends to flatten the sub sound, I wonder if I could tune the system with the MS-8 and then bypass it to the sub or use the crossover on the sub amp to bring life back to the sub. Have you experimented with that?


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I just used the built in sub level and bass level adjustments on the MS-8 to tune it to my liking. Sure, the base tune is pretty anemic on the low end, but that's what the adjustments are for.

You can't have one part of your system not running through the MS-8, or it'll be way off in terms of time alignment. There's around an 8ms delay from when the signal enters the MS-8 to when it leaves (time for all the processing to occur) which wouldn't be present in anything that bypasses the MS-8.


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## CDT FAN (Jul 25, 2012)

strakele said:


> I just used the built in sub level and bass level adjustments on the MS-8 to tune it to my liking. Sure, the base tune is pretty anemic on the low end, but that's what the adjustments are for.
> 
> You can't have one part of your system not running through the MS-8, or it'll be way off in terms of time alignment. There's around an 8ms delay from when the signal enters the MS-8 to when it leaves (time for all the processing to occur) which wouldn't be present in anything that bypasses the MS-8.


ok. thanks. Now that you mention it, the delay is the reason the guy I bought it from sold it. The delay was causing issues with his BT headset.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

CDT FAN said:


> ok. thanks. Now that you mention it, the delay is the reason the guy I bought it from sold it. The delay was causing issues with his BT headset.


I believe there's an software update for the BT on the harman website... 

Kelvin


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