# 2014 Audi S4 Pro Audio build



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Well, it's about that time.  Another creation that will one day circulate the forums. (Based on past trends, look for this car for sale in its completed form in about 2 years...)

I bought this car last June as a graduation present to myself. I haven't had a sporty/quick car in a lot of years, and so I did something unconventional for me and added a bunch of go-fast parts first. It's currently making around 475hp and is an absolute blast to drive. Now, it's time for the horn build. :rockon:

I've spent the last few months acquiring gear, then selling that gear and acquiring other gear, lol. Trying to find a balance between performance and weight gain/savings, while not taking too many steps back from what I've built in the past (the Passat and S-10 are hard to match). 

I started looking at some of the newer offerings from B&C, and they've taken an already impressive line and made some pretty badass improvements. I also want/need to retain the factory HU, so I can't go with the P99 this time around and needed an external processor. Here is the gear list:

HU- factory MMI 3G+
ID mini horns w/ B&C DE120 compression drivers (these things are tiny!)
B&C 6MDN44 in custom kicks
B&C 8MBX51 in factory door locations
B&C 18DS115 18" subwoofer in IB config (very similar to the Passat build)
Gladen amps- modified for fixed gain, bypassed filters
moBridge DA3 to Mosconi 6to8 Aerospace

The moBridge piece may seem redundant, but the DA1 and DA2 were close in price to what I picked up the DA3 for, and it gives me the option of trying it out as a processor. There are a few cool features it has over the Mosconi, including the ability to save and select processor presets from the factory HU. So if it is a competent piece, I may use it as my processor, or I can defeat all the processing and use it as the MOST converter to the 6to8. 

I have another Singer alternator being built which should be here in a week or two. Not 100% sure I will use it yet, but I want to have it on hand in case voltage is a problem, especially with the summer coming.

The pair of XS75c6 will be 3 channel bridged- one each to the left and right front ends- and an SPL1800c1 will power the sub. Everything will be at 8 ohms, so I've allowed for a lot of headroom and hope to keep things running cool in the nasty AZ summer that's about to hit!

The car went to Handcrafted earlier this week for breaking ground on the kickpanel fabrication. I've posted a few teaser shots and will get more pics up as the build progresses. I'm still trying to figure out an amp rack/layout. Hoping to have everything done in the next few weeks.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Oh, and a few shots of the car


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## knever3 (Mar 9, 2009)

mikey7182 said:


> Oh, and a few shots of the car


Sweet cannot wait for the results!

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

Yeah baby!


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Subcribed


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I have a WHOLE lot of JBL pro stuff that I am going to be selling if I knew you were shopping.

2441Hs, 2226Gs, 2119Hs, 2166H, 2169Hs, 2206Hs, 2226Hs...all BNIB. 

Some BNIB Acoustic Elegance TD8Ms and TD8Ss with Apollo motors, and TD6Ms.

A pair of BNIB TAD2001s, TAD 1603s, and a pair of TAD 1801s.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> I have a WHOLE lot of JBL pro stuff that I am going to be selling if I knew you were shopping.
> 
> 2441Hs, 2226Gs, 2119Hs, 2166H, 2169Hs, 2206Hs, 2226Hs...all BNIB.
> 
> ...


Geez! Hoarder!  Those 2166/2169 are cool! Where did you find them? Can’t say I’ve seen them before. I think the 2166 would be too deep for my kicks. Any T/S and dimensions on them?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I will try to find some parameters.

I am selling this stuff for a friend/former member here from Texas. There are 18 BNIB 2206Hs sitting in my folks garage...two pallets of AE TD8s.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Sub’!



thehatedguy said:


> I will try to find some parameters.
> 
> I am selling this stuff for a friend/former member here from Texas. There are 18 BNIB 2206Hs sitting in my folks garage...two pallets of AE TD8s.



Which one is that the S, for sealed? S,x,m,h etc I always mix them.
Some T/S would be nice yes, are they from a recent batch?
I think last time I checked they were slightly different than old ones.
But interested!


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## HIS4 (Oct 6, 2005)

I'd be interested to know what you did to get that car to 475hp. I know getting to 400 is relatively simple but 475 is a huge jump and usually takes some internal work.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

That’s at the crank, not the wheels.  If only!  I have yet to get it on a dyno, so I can only speculate based on what others have seen with the mods I have. 

The car currently has a GIAC DSG tune, intake, CTS Turbo supercharger pulley kit, and GIAC Stage 2+ tune, which is their Stage 2 as well as a 180mm crank pulley with additional software specific to the pulley. It also comes with separate switchable files for pump gas, 100 octane and E85. It ran like a bat out of hell during the winter but I can tell the heat is starting to tax it a bit. My next mods will be cooling, either the AWE Cold Front or ethanol injection. There are a few guys on Audizine running the same mods, but more aggressive crank pulleys with cooling that are seeing 450-475 at the wheels and low 11 second 1/4s. I haven’t seen too many guys dig into the motors much yet, except for modified s/c etc. They do surprisingly well with software and bolt-ons.


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

HIS4 said:


> I'd be interested to know what you did to get that car to 475hp. I know getting to 400 is relatively simple but 475 is a huge jump and usually takes some internal work.


not true im putting those numbers down , thanks apr ultracharger 

looks like a great build , cant wait to see the kicks installed , its the next step in my install ,


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Jon at Handcrafted hits another home run with these kicks. Very low profile considering they are 7" midrange! I wanted some accents on or around the grill inserts that tied them into the silver trim in the doors without standing out too much. Jon surprised me with the Audi rings and I think they worked out perfect!


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

they look great i really want to see a pic of them mounted


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## Blu (Nov 3, 2008)

audirsfaux said:


> they look great i really want to see a pic of them mounted


x2...


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Kicks look great did he do them with the car the or take a mold?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The 8s are new.

One of sets of boxes were new frame style TD6s. So just a few sets of TD8Ss and TD8Ms with Apollo motors. I have a crap load of TD6s Hs and Ms with the new baskets and Apollo motors, 8 and 4 ohm.

I don't want to derail his thread. Will be putting up some classifieds shortly.



Elgrosso said:


> Sub’!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

dcfis said:


> Kicks look great did he do them with the car the or take a mold?


He had the car for a day or two. They involve getting rid of the dead pedal on the drivers side and cutting into the kick area so they recess back as far as possible. We also had to make sure there was clearance for the horns. I’ll have them installed in the next few days!


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> I will try to find some parameters.
> 
> I am selling this stuff for a friend/former member here from Texas. There are 18 BNIB 2206Hs sitting in my folks garage...two pallets of AE TD8s.


WTH

And I thought my speaker hoarding was out-of-control


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

mikey7182 said:


> Well, it's about that time.  Another creation that will one day circulate the forums. (Based on past trends, look for this car for sale in its completed form in about 2 years...)
> 
> I bought this car last June as a graduation present to myself. I haven't had a sporty/quick car in a lot of years, and so I did something unconventional for me and added a bunch of go-fast parts first. It's currently making around 475hp and is an absolute blast to drive. Now, it's time for the horn build. :rockon:
> 
> ...


Seeing your Passat in Anaheim inspired me to try IB again. I bought the same sub you were using, a Stereo Integrity HT-18.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Seeing your Passat in Anaheim inspired me to try IB again. I bought the same sub you were using, a Stereo Integrity HT-18.


Awesome! They are getting hard to find (unless you got the MKII). That sub was really phenomenal. I'm hoping for a similar outcome with the 18DS115.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I sent you a msg on FB about some Aurasound Whispers.



Patrick Bateman said:


> WTH
> 
> And I thought my speaker hoarding was out-of-control


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Yes, I replied


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

A little unboxing of the behemoth 18DS115, and a little teaser shot of my IB grille idea.


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## Dexter Morgan (May 10, 2018)

Nice.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

That's neodymium?!


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

So awesome


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Patrick Bateman said:


> That's neodymium?!


Yessir. About $527 worth  I actually just realized that all 7 drivers in this install are B&C neo.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Realistically, that's a steal at $527. That beast has more displacement than all of the trendy 12" woofers, and it will laugh at amplifiers that would blow up a car audio twelve.

Well played sir!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Realistically, that's a steal at $527. That beast has more displacement than all of the trendy 12" woofers, and it will laugh at amplifiers that would blow up a car audio twelve.
> 
> Well played sir!


I actually got it for $477 shipped with a $50 coupon to Parts Express!  I'm eager to try it out. I'm going to try and have the IB wall mocked up by next weekend.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Nice, I think you can put a little Italian flag somewhere


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

Elgrosso said:


> Nice, I think you can put a little Italian flag somewhere


Lmao!!! And a Tool sticker ?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Elgrosso said:


> Nice, I think you can put a little Italian flag somewhere


Ha! I guess between the Gladen, Mosconi, and B&C gear and the Audi they’re going into, I definitely have a German-Italian theme going!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I’ve entertained the idea of finally trying out midbass in multiple locations, but unsure if/how it would work in this setup. Patrick, I remember you writing some findings up about this several years back, about frequencies below ~300 not being easily localized, which was part of the inspiration behind my S-10 12” midbass behind the seats. My idea this time would be a second pair of 8MBX51 in the rear doors. The distance to the listeners is almost identical between the front and rear doors, so if I were to run them off the same channels of amplification (meaning any EQ or TA would be equally applied to both drivers on the same side of the car), would I be ok, or asking for trouble? I’ve always been drawn to unconventional ideas and have found that most of them have worked out far better than they might appear to on paper, and I’m also having a mild emotional struggle stepping down from ported 10s to 8s in the doors


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

mikey7182 said:


> I’ve entertained the idea of finally trying out midbass in multiple locations, but unsure if/how it would work in this setup. Patrick, I remember you writing some findings up about this several years back, about frequencies below ~300 not being easily localized, which was part of the inspiration behind my S-10 12” midbass behind the seats. My idea this time would be a second pair of 8MBX51 in the rear doors. The distance to the listeners is almost identical between the front and rear doors, so if I were to run them off the same channels of amplification (meaning any EQ or TA would be equally applied to both drivers on the same side of the car), would I be ok, or asking for trouble? I’ve always been drawn to unconventional ideas and have found that most of them have worked out far better than they might appear to on paper, and I’m also having a mild emotional struggle stepping down from ported 10s to 8s in the doors


Multiple midbasses are just about the only constant in all my car stereo projects. I've gone back and forth on what type of subs I like, and sometimes I use arrays in my car instead of Unity Horns. 

But multiple midbasses are always in the mix, because they just work so damn good.

The easiest way to understand why they work well is to read the multi-sub articles over on diyaudio(1), then understand that what works well at subwoofer frequencies in a home works well at MIDBASS frequencies in a car. (Because the 'room' is much smaller.)

If you saw my office right now, you'd see a big stack of 3D printed enclosures that I've made, because one of the projects I have on the burner is to see if I can take the same concept and run it all the way up into the midrange, and maybe even higher.

Here's my idea:










If you look at how a CBT works, it basically has 36 drivers and only four of the drivers are getting full power. As you move further away from the center, the drivers get quieter and quieter and quieter.

The thing I don't like about conventional arrays is that you can't get that 'pinpoint' imaging that you can get from a Unity horn or a well sorted two-way. IMHO, the reason conventional arrays don't image so well is because your ear is hearing arrivals from numerous locations. (Because you have a wall of drivers, all playing at the same time, *and all at the same volume.*

That last part is key, if you're wondering why I'm going off on a tangent, there's a payoff coming 

So the CBT, only a very small fraction of the drivers are playing at full volume - about 10% of them.

The reason that this makes such a powerful impact on the imaging is because *reducing the volume of the other elements in the array dramatically reduces how apparent they are, in the overall frequency response.*

Here's an example:

If I have two speakers, and they're both playing at 90dB, *the sum total is 93dB.*

But if I reduce the volume level of one of them by 3dB, *the sum total is 91.8dB* (Adding acoustic levels summing sound levels 10 combining addition summation sum decibel levels or SPL of up to ten incoherent sound sources audio logarithmic decibel scale identical summing 1/3 octave spl full octave sum sound pressure level noise so)


Now, three decibels, that doesn't sound like a lot does it? But consider the fact that when you fiddle with the balance knob on your stereo, you can *definitely* hear a 3dB difference. Heck, you can probably hear a 2dB difference, and maybe even a 1dB difference.

So my new project, is take the same idea as the multiple midbass setup, but go even crazier with the number of units, and most importantly, *only one unit will be at full volume.*

I've tinkered with this on a limited basis, using one speaker per side, and then doubling it.

With just one speaker per side, I found that the imaging was devastatingly pinpoint. I could easily get an image that sounded like there was a center channel playing. It was rock-solid.

*But it sounded like crap.* Because a fundamental issue that I've run into with my projects, where I get the phase all sorted out and the frequency response dialed in and the DSP sorted, is that the music I listen to is mostly mono. 

The addition of two more drivers, for a total of two per side, was that the sound became more 'spacious.' I definitely preferred that setup.

My plan is to go full retard and do somewhere around eight per side.

That might seem like it would be TOO spacious, but the thing is, you can 'dial in' the spaciousness by reducing the power that you send to the additional speakers. In the CBT, the speakers at the edge of the array are adding just 0.265dB to the overall sound.

Now, the obvious question, if Bateman is aping the CBT, why doesn't he just build a CBT?

The reason I'm not building a CBT is because I've found that you can make the car disappear if you get all the drivers in the array to arrive at your ears at the same time. It's really spooky, it makes you feel like you're in the room where the music is recorded. You can't do this with a conventional array, because the elements in the array aren't equidistant.

But in the car, you CAN, because you know exactly where your ears are.

So far, I have only tried this using DSP delay. In other words, the satellites weren't _physically_ equidistant, but I used my microphone to line up their arrival times with DSP delay.

Whew, that was a wall of text. Can you tell I love multiple midbasses? lol

(1) Geddes' 3 random sub theory? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews


Oh, and to actually answer your question, NO I would not put a second set of midbasses in the rear doors. With multiple subs in the home, and multiple midbasses in the car, you get the biggest 'bang for the buck' by varying the HEIGHT of where they're located. Here's why:

In a room or in a car, you get strong reflections off the ceiling, the floor, and the side walls. For instance in the cabin of your Audi there will be a strong null in the frequency response at about 67.5Hz. The reason for that null is because the sound goes UP to the ceiling of the car, it's reflected, and then it bounces back down... Where it's now 180 degrees out of phase with the woofer. (You can figure out the frequency for your Audi by taking a tape measure, measuring from the center of the midbass cone to the ceiling, and then plugging it into this equation:

speed of sound / distance / 4

for instance

13,500" / 50" / 4=
67.5"










You can see this phenomenon in Andy Wehmeyers cabin gain measurements that he did at JBL. Across the board, sedans suffer from this dip around 70Hz.

So we KNOW what's causing the null, it's the geometry. So the easiest 'bang for the buck' is to mix up the geometry by putting ANOTHER midbass at a different height.

In my car, I have one midbass under each seat, and another set of midbasses behind the dash. So the height is varied significantly.

But, again, ideally I'd like to go full retard and have about eight drivers per side.

As far as midbass output, that will be absolutely no problem with an array. Arrays get loud FAST, because multiple sources sum really well at low frequencies. 

Possibly the most shocking thing for me, with just four 3.5" midbasses, was that I almost think I could ditch my sub. If I'd gone to eight I definitely could, but right now I'm leaning towards doing eight 2" drivers per side, plus a sub. Eight two inch drivers have as much cone area as a 6.5" woofer. So basically it would be a two way system. I may add a tweeter if I can't get the 2" drivers to play high enough.

The last time I mentioned that two 3.5" drivers were nearly as powerful as a sub, people said I was full of it. But let's do the math!

Take a look at Andy's graph, see that big dip at 70Hz? That's about ten decibels. As you can imagine, if you reduce the output of your system by TEN decibels at 70Hz, it's going to sound anemic. That's a big fat null. So about 75% of the people into car audio, they try to mask that null with the sub, but that never sounds right. They wind up with too much LOW bass, and it doesn't fully solve the REAL problem, which is that null. 

Now a lot of guys, they know their way around a mic and they use EQ to fill in that null. But that's a BIG null - ten decibels. So that means that they have to apply 10x more power at 70Hz to fill in that hole, and 70Hz is right where most midbasses are running out of steam.

So that's why you see people putting ten and twelves into their cars, because you need a beast of a midbass to deal with that null. I've been there, I used to run B&C 8NDL51s in a sealed enclosure in my car. That's a monster of a midbass and it was what's required to deal with that null when you have one midbass.

But now my goofy ass is running just two 3.5" midbasses and it honestly sounds better. No, it doesn't "hit" as hard as the B&C, but it sounds smoother and most importantly it sounds "punchy." Because the problem here, it can be solved in two ways:

1) Get a beast of a midbass that can handle redonkulous amount of power to deal with the dip at 70Hz, and fill in the dip with EQ

or

2) Just fix the ROOT of the problem, which is geometric. If you fix the GEOMETRY, you may be able to get away with a midbass that needs 50w instead of a midbass that needs 500w. (It takes 10x as much power to 'fill in' a 10dB null.)

Actually, it just hit me, another way to solve this, if someone didn't want to do multiple midbasses, would be to vary the height of ONE midbass. Because the problem is the bounce off the ceiling and the fact that it's perfectly symmetrical with both midbasses. If one could vary the height of ONE midbass by about 16" or so, that would go a long way too. Now, obviously, that's an ugly solution, a more elegant solution is 2-4 midbasses per side at varying heights.










Though I don't think they were aware of it, USD audio fixed the midbass problem also. By mounting the midbasses so high off the floor, they created asymmetrical reflections off the floor and the ceiling. This doesn't fix the problem entirely, but it will make the depth of the dip shallower.

BTW, if anyone wonders why I know all this nonsense, it's because I build a lot of horns, and horns work on the exact same principle: There's a null in a horn which occurs when the sound from the driver bounces off the throat and is reflected. So whenever I build a horn, I have to be conscious of this formula:

13500" / distance / 4


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

What a read! Please see your physician if you begin exhibiting any signs/symptoms of carpal tunnel syndrome, including cramps, joint pain, and inability to write novellas in 90 minutes. 

Thanks for all the info! So, I typically cross my midbass and sub at 80hz with a fairly steep filter (that’s how the Passat was set up). It seems like that would help resolve the null at 65-70hz, since it’s being covered by the sub and the midbass to a degree, no? Adding a second set in the rear doors wouldn’t exacerbate the null, would it? It may not accomplish all the goals you mentioned but my main concern is TA/EQ, since I won’t be using separate amplification and processor channels for the rears, so they will mirror the settings of the front doors. So long as that won’t create a bunch of issues (PLD is almost identical between front and rear as I said), it might be fun to try, and may create (I’m hoping) a similar disappearing act to the one you mention in your multiple midbass thread.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

A careful overlap of the subwoofer and the midbasses is probably the easiest solution, true.

Basically you would do this:

1) Install the midbasses 

2) Play them full range and measure the response in about eight different locations in the front seats. Just move your mic from right to left to figure out what the response curve looks like. Then sum all the curves to get an idea where the null is. (You can do this in Arta.)

3) Once you know where the null is, add the sub to the mix and overlap the two drivers. Be sure that everything is in-phase. The overlap of the three drivers (midbasses and sub) will create a peak in the response, but that peak will happen right around where the null happens naturally, so the two will offset each other.


Your idea is an obvious one, but not necessarily the best solution. Here's why:

The null typically happens around 70hz, and simply using a steep highpass on the midbasses seems like an easy solution. _If the null is due to the bounce off the ceiling, then just high pass the midbasses._ The thing that sucks, and a big part of the reason that the octave from 80-160Hz is such a mess, is because there are a bunch of reflections that all happen at the same octave.










13500" / distance / 4 is the magic formula, and here's where you get nulls in the car:

1) A null around 68Hz, from the height of the cabin
2) A null about the same frequency, from the sound of the sub going towards the windshield then bouncing back. The frequency of this null will depend on the pathlength from the sub's location to the windshield. When people talk about their sub sounding different depending on whether it's facing forward or backward, I think a big part of that is because that changes the pathlength. The SPL guys put their subs in the center of their cars in some cases, also leveraging this reflection. (By putting the sub in the center of the car it makes the pathlength short, which 'pushes' the reflection up into the range of 100Hz or so, outside of the sub's passband.)

To make a long story short, *because the width and the height of the car is around 5', it's really hard to get away from that null. In Andy's measurement, you can see the null moves around depending on the dimensions of the cabin.

As far as adding a second midbass, I would personally look for something smaller and I would run it about 3dB lower than the main midbass. Your midbass has a displacement of 0.176 liters. So if you run a *second* set of midbasses at 3dB less volume, you only need one that displaces 0.088 liters. (Because it only needs to get half as loud, you can get away with half the displacement.)

I like putting them under the seats or behind the dash. In my CX5 I could easily fit an 8" woofer behind the dash, but I doubt the Audi is that roomy behind the dash.

I like bandpass midbasses too, because you can put the ports all the way to the edge of the car.

When I had 8NDL51s up against the firewall, it definitely narrowed the stage, because the center of the midbass was about a foot away from the edge of the car:









I had these UNDER the brake pedal. Just barely fit.

So basically it was very dynamic and clean, but stage was narrower than I'd like.



Gotta admit, I'm a little stumped here. I think that using the rear doors for a second set of midbasses isn't ideal, because I think it will drag the stage towards you. (Since your ears will perceive the sound coming from just behind you.)

Lowering the level on the second set of midbasses is definitely recommended, and if you do that, you don't need a driver that's equal to the B&C midbasses you already have. For instance, something like the $50 Exodus Anarchy 6" would work.

But THAT is tricky too, because where do you hide it? My car has plenty of room BEHIND the dash, which is where I'd recommend putting it, but I have a hunch that an Audi S4 won't.

Simply overlapping the sub and the midbass might be enough.

Here's something that I tried which really made all of this easier:

I went out and bought a couple sets of these off Craigslist:










And then I set them up in various locations in my car, to figure out what sounded good. The key here, I think, is to be sure that you have a MAIN midbass and then the additional midbasses are playing at a lower level. -3dB minimum. 

I'm generally not the type of person to evaluate things subjectively, but this is one of those exceptions where you really just have to sit in the car and figure out what works for you and your music. For instance, Jon Whitledge is a fan of REALLY well recorded music, and for his musical taste, the pinpoint nature of his setup works great. But I listen to EDM and punk music, and it's all recorded terribly. My favorite musician confessed that he was mixing on a set of $100 Logitech computer speakers up until last year!

*


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Here's a little bit of data to show off the power of arrays:


















Here's the frequency response and distortion of an array that I'm working on. Right now it has 5.5 octaves of bandwidth, and the distortion levels are comparable to what you'd get with something like a $100 Scanspeak midrange. But that Scanspeak midrange can't play to 20khz, and I have directivity control too. With a little bit of work, I think I can get this thing to cover 250Hz - 20Khz. And check out that phase curve, it's as good as a Synergy Horn.

http://medleysmusings.com/tectonic-elements-tebm35c10-4-miniature-bmr-driver/

These drivers are basically useless on their own, but when you array them they're powerful. That's the thing with midbass arrays, you can make tiny drivers play really loud when you use a pile of them.


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## ultimatemj (Jan 15, 2009)

I've been struggling with a 70HZ null 








I've tried multiple x-over points, phases, and sub levels, to no avail...

But it looks like I have a new experiment to to try!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I don’t want to bog down this thread with my two cents too much so I’ll try to be brief in my replies…



Patrick Bateman said:


> Take a look at Andy's graph, see that big dip at 70Hz? That's about ten decibels. As you can imagine, if you reduce the output of your system by TEN decibels at 70Hz, it's going to sound anemic. That's a big fat null. So about 75% of the people into car audio, they try to mask that null with the sub, but that never sounds right. They wind up with too much LOW bass, and it doesn't fully solve the REAL problem, which is that null.
> 
> Now a lot of guys, they know their way around a mic and they use EQ to fill in that null. But that's a BIG null - ten decibels. So that means that they have to apply 10x more power at 70Hz to fill in that hole, and 70Hz is right where most midbasses are running out of steam.


But, you don't listen to a single 70hz panned sound at a time. In most all music that frequency is mono. The mistake I see a lot of people make - including myself for many years - when EQ'ing their systems in the lower regions (below 400hz or so) is they fail to consider a) the width of the car affecting the L/R filtering relative to the point at which the sound between those two sides become 'mono' and b) the actual 'stereo' content being summed to mono.

When analyzing your system below this region great care should be taken to actually analyze the data. At 70hz the dip you have is from the nearest door or kick-mounted speaker in nearly all cases. But what happens when you play the opposite side speaker? That null goes away. So, the question is, how much is that 70hz null actually causing you _audible _problems? Money says attempts to EQ it are going to cause you significantly more problems than they resolve - either by boosting the null (terrible, terrible idea which thankfully most people understand) or by cutting the stuff around it (which can create more phase related issues between the two sides). What you should be doing is measuring the system response of each speaker, yes, but also measuring the response of all the drivers in that region playing at the same time. The goal is to find commonalities; areas where there are real issues that are caused by one or 2+ drivers playing at the same time. IOW, when measuring and EQ'ing based on those measurements, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's important to evaluate the what/why. This is one reason why I'm not fond of folks "tuning to a curve"; it's very easy to put blinders on and just start making the measured response match some curve but result in making things worse.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

As for the arrayed midbass, this is something Patrick and I fundamentally disagree on. I get the concept. It just doesn’t work as well as it might otherwise work for subwoofers due to the fact that midbass drivers are playing at frequencies well within the vocal spectrum and those voices can be heard. There’s a little bit of discussion about mine and Patrick’s views on it here:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...udio-discussion/384618-help-mids-via-rew.html

And I’ll just copy/paste myself to save some time:
As for the midbass array as a fix, I think that's wasted money when you already have a subwoofer behind you that can do the same thing. Then you only have to worry about blending one subwoofer to a pair of midbass drivers up front (which, in effect thanks to the width of the car are practically 'arrayed') as opposed to trying to make multiple midbass drivers sound as if they are one (or a pair of sides) which is an undertaking if your goal is more than just "I want to get loud". 

Here's my $0.02 on why midbass arrays are no beuno. Midbass arrays by nature tend to play in to the 200hz region. If you put a midbass behind you, you will hear it. It may not be night and day... but regardless of how well it is "tuned" to blend in, you will have what I call 'vocal drag' that will take the stage from being *in front of you* to making you be *within the stage*. I've done this myself and I've heard this exact same effect in friend's cars who have attempted it (and I'm talking about guys who know how to tune a system). That balancing act of dialing the levels down so you don't get that drag also ultimately means lessened effect of smoothing out the response. The best bass I've ever had was with a subwoofer behind me. 

And sure, you could make the argument that you could bandpass the arrayed midbass drivers so that they only play the trouble frequencies to help smooth out the response and don't have the vocals pulling toward the back ... and then I point you right back to using the subwoofer for that duty.



I'll back out of this thread now. I don't wanna muck it up. Just trying to offer some input. I'm a fan of thinking outside of the box and am just sharing my experiences with those attempts wrt the midbass array stuff. If nothing else, it's just another dude's perspective that might help you along your way.


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## RandyJ75 (Dec 4, 2006)

mikey7182 said:


> Jon at Handcrafted hits another home run with these kicks. Very low profile considering they are 7" midrange! I wanted some accents on or around the grill inserts that tied them into the silver trim in the doors without standing out too much. Jon surprised me with the Audi rings and I think they worked out perfect!


That is some beautiful work.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Thank you, Patrick and Erin, for all your input! I have tried some pretty unconventional things over the years that have ended up working a lot better than I thought they would on paper. This “dual door” midbass idea is something I’ve tossed around for a long time. Not sure if I will do it in this install, if not to just try it for fun. Maybe I’ll just have Jon fit two 8s in each front door instead...


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

ErinH said:


> As for the arrayed midbass, this is something Patrick and I fundamentally disagree on. I get the concept. It just doesn’t work as well as it might otherwise work for subwoofers due to the fact that midbass drivers are playing at frequencies well within the vocal spectrum and those voices can be heard. There’s a little bit of discussion about mine and Patrick’s views on it here:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...udio-discussion/384618-help-mids-via-rew.html
> 
> And I’ll just copy/paste myself to save some time:
> ...


I'm not keen on putting midbasses behind me.

Currently I have one set of midbasses under the drivers seat, and another set behind the dash. The dash location gets you maximum soundstage depth, and the ones under the seat help solve the geometry problem in the car. Putting them in the door might be even better, but I'm not keen on modifying my car, I haven't removed a door panel in over a decade.

Now, having midbasses under your seat, that probably sounds stupid right? They're too close aren't they? Because SUVs, trucks and CUVs are so upright, it actually works out alright. The pathlength from my left ear to my left 'stock' door speaker is 39". The pathlength from my left ear to my midbass under the seat is 37". The pathlength from my left ear to a satellite up on the dash is 37". Basically the big upright seat makes for long pathlengths to the floor.

Under the dash has by far the longest pathlength; 58"!

Last but not least, the goal isn't to 'make them sound as one.'
The goal is to make the midbass sound "dry."

Here's what I mean by this:

Jon Whitledge possibly has the best bass I've ever heard, in a car or in a home. The drum strikes are just tight as a, well, "drum." No overhang, no tubbiness, no drone. I'm into EDM, so I like bass, I like it clean. I played some Excision in Jon's bus, and it just sounded completely different because the bass is so clean in his van.

Jon's solution is pretty dramatic; he's using helmholtz absorbers to nuke the reflections in the vehicle. That's why the bass is so damn good.

But there's a lot of ways to achieve the same thing without Helmholtz absorbers. Dipoles can do it. Cardioids, a little bit less so.

I believe staggered midbass arrays can do it too.

I just want to stress here, midbass arrays don't sound the same as a pair of midbasses. The sound is dryer, bass is tighter, but the sound of the bass is also 'diffuse.' I'm cool with that, the midrange and treble is still pinpoint. In EDM, the bass is mono 99% of the time, so I don't care if can't pinpoint where it's coming from. I'm not listening to acoustic recordings of someone playing drums.

Here's some data:









Here's an impulse measurement of a dipole in a room. *Note how it decays very rapidly.* That fast decay is because the dipole is two sources, with nulls to the side.









Here's an impulse measurement of a cardioid in a room. It doesn't decay as nicely as a dipole, because it's somewhere between a dipole and a sealed box.









Here's an impulse measurement of a sealed box. Sad! The reflections are actually louder than the initial impulse! That's why the DIY guys are so gaga over dipoles, it's a night and day difference in the bass. No mud.

Data from John Kreskovsky: Dipole_modesA

EDIT: If anyone's curious what Jon's bus is doing, the absorbers in his bus absorb those reflections that you see in the 'sealed' impulse measurement above. There's no free lunch unfortunately, all three of these solutions cost efficiency. The midbass array solution does not.


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## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

Sub'd 
Still rockin your S10 Mikey!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

BMWTUBED said:


> Sub'd
> Still rockin your S10 Mikey!


That’s really awesome to hear! I hope it’s treating you well! 

Here is an update on the S4. Midbass, horns, and kicks are all installed! 

Edit: sorry for the few sideways pics! I’m posting from my phone. ??*♂


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

i spent a couple hours with a friend putting cld and ccf on the backside of his b8 s4 doors to help tame rattles, even put some cld inside the door pockets. it cut most of them out except like 95db+.

when it gets done, i'd love to hear it.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

That kick install looks really well done. Your installer is an ace. :thumbsup:


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Mikey,

Have you heard the 8mbx's before? Spec-wise, they seem to perfectly straddle the fence between a hifi driver with their low fs and a pro driver with the high sensitivity.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

bassfromspace said:


> Mikey,
> 
> Have you heard the 8mbx's before? Spec-wise, they seem to perfectly straddle the fence between a hifi driver with their low fs and a pro driver with the high sensitivity.


I have not heard them yet. They seem to be an improvement over the 8NDL51, in that they do most things better, and it’s a pretty reference standard midbass as far as pro mids go. I am looking forward to seeing how they do.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

I grabbed a pair right after I posted this, so I'll know, as well in about two weeks.

Good luck!


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

And the race is on! ?


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Those kicks are top notch!

I'm anxious to read what you have to say about the B&C 18 mounted IB... & pics too.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

So what are the kicks playing? IIRC you said its a 7"?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Why does my build log now say it was authored by BMWTUBED? Where did the first 25+ posts go? What in the hell is going on with this site lately???


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

dcfis said:


> So what are the kicks playing? IIRC you said its a 7"?


The kicks are going to be playing 250-2500hz, roughly. I'll play around with crossover points and see where the sweet spot is. Not sure it's even worth writing this since it will probably disappear tomorrow. This site has gone to absolute **** lately.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

I liked this thread better when the message board wasn't broken


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Were you able to fit the B&C midbasses behind the stock door panel? Or did you have to build a new door?

My CX5 comes with "stock" eights, but the depth is insanely shallow. Basically means you have to tear up the door if you plan on putting anything bigger than a NEO 5" in the stock location.


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## mrichard89 (Sep 29, 2016)

Did you do anything special with the door panel grilles?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Everything fit behind the factory panels. I think Jon said he had to trim a small piece off the back side of the grille, but other than that it was a perfect fit. The factory speakers were in a 8” diameter pod with a 9” flange at the base, and about 3” deep, so the B&C were virtually a drop in.


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

everything looks great ! im really excited to see the sub set up , my only suggestion is to dampen the crap out of the doors and the panels , they rattle like crazy everywhere


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

audirsfaux said:


> everything looks great ! im really excited to see the sub set up , my only suggestion is to dampen the crap out of the doors and the panels , they rattle like crazy everywhere


So am I! The front doors are dampened inside and out (although not pictured), and I've noticed little rattles here and there as I drive down the road, particularly from my center console and gauge cluster bezel! Annoying. 

I'm taking the car back to Handcrafted to finish the rest of the install, including trunk/baffle/amp rack in a few weeks. I just don't have the time to finish it myself, nor the desire in 110* AZ heat. They'll be damping the rear deck and 
a few other areas and then we'll see what else it needs from there. I'll have updates toward the end of June!


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

i have a fix for the bezel rattle/squeek pm me for details


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## ahkim (Jun 8, 2018)

That's a nice install, love the Audi Rings!


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

The 8mb's are ballsy for a pro audio driver. They just need some eq and they're golden. That 96db sensitivity rating is real, as well.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Update: The IB wall and amp rack are complete. It is quite similar to the setup I had in the Passat (if it ain't broke...  ) with a few changes, and far better fabrication thanks to Jon and the crew at Handcrafted.

I requested that the grill design take cues from the Audi RS4 grill, which I have on my car. I also requested that I retain access to the floor hooks for the storage net, similar to an install that Bing did a few months back in an A6. The corners are sealed off on the back side of the baffle. 

The IB wall is 4" thick- a double 3/4" baffle, followed by another two layers of 3/4" for reinforcement and excursion clearance, and a double 1/2" grill layer over the front. The grill is still being finished as we are waiting on mesh and Audi rings.



The amp rack is constructed from aluminum sheet. The tolerances were incredibly tight with all the gear and the sub motor, especially pushing the IB wall far enough in to the trunk that I could retain most of my trunk space. Here is the test fitting:



One thing I didn't do in the Passat was seal the rear deck. I decided to do that in the S4. Jon removed the factory subwoofer and made ABS templates of the exposed holes for the sub and others that were stamped into the rear deck, securing them in place with adhesive, then finishing with the same dampener treatment that the front doors received.







The baffle was finished in black/charcoal carpet that closely matches the factory trunk liner, with the grill trim finished in the same black vinyl that was used on the kick panels. The grill insert will be heavy gauge mesh, covered in grill cloth, and hopefully will incorporate some raised Audi rings to mimic the factory grill.  Still sorting out details on that.

The amps were modified to bypass all the filters and have fixed gains, so no access to the terminals is needed after initial install, which makes for a clean look and allows the wiring to be hidden (still wiring things up at the time these pics were taken):



One xs75c6 on the upper level (L+R) which will each run their respective side of the front stage. SPL1800c1 is centered beneath the sub it will power. I really like the symmetry of this. 6to8 Aerospace is on the driver side, and distribution is on the passenger side. The moBridge DA3 is installed next to the factory amp where it converts the MOST signal to SPDIF. 



The aluminum rack is secured to the trunk floor with rivnuts. It doubles as a lower support brace for the IB wall, with four 90* tabs extending off the back side of the base that are bolted to the baffle. The top of the baffle is secured with two large, thick gauge brackets that are bolted to the underside of the rear deck and flank the subwoofer on the baffle.



And here is the behemoth- the B&C 18DS115, in its new home, surrounded by an Audi-inspired RS4 grill. The baffle is surrounded on its perimeter with high density foam for a snug fit, and I'll probably reinforce a few areas in the corners if I have any audible "leakage" so to speak. Overall, it's solid as a rock! 



I ordered some custom-length RCAs last night that use Mogami 2964 cable and Neutrik-Rean NYS connectors. I'll have to pull the rack to wire everything up, then re-install. I also need to use VCDS/VAG-COM to change a setting in the Audio menu that allows the MOST signal to be used by the DA3. I am hoping to have this up and running by next week.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Sweet! Nice use of that void space between the cone & rear seatbacks.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Very cool, and clean. Must be something to hear!


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

nice. room to turn the amps around and make it a bit more serviceable?


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

What an incredible car, equipment, and install! Extremely well done - I would love to hear it! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

nadams5755 said:


> nice. room to turn the amps around and make it a bit more serviceable?





> The amps were modified to bypass all the filters, and have fixed gains, and are internally bridged, so no access to the terminals is needed after initial install, which makes for a clean look and allows the wiring to be hidden (still wiring things up at the time these pics were taken)


 

I did a double take too when Jon first sent me the pics, but once I thought about it, it made a lot of sense. I really like the back sides exposed too, with the mesh vent. 

I’d thought about powder coating the aluminum rack, but I kinda like it how it is.


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

but the logos are upside down


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

nadams5755 said:


> but the logos are upside down


You've triggered my OCD!  Damn you!


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

triggered my ocd as well.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Does anyone know if it's a bad idea to have a giant neodymium motor in parallel with inductors nearby?

I have some 8NDL51s that I've thought about turning into coaxials, by 3D printing a bridge and putting a neo tweeter in front. But I'm not sure if the magnetic field from the woofer would screw things up. When I look at these amps that close to that sub, I wonder the same thing.

I literally have no idea if this is a problem or not; but I can feel the magnetic 'pull' from within a couple of inches of the motor.

With compression drivers, you REALLY have to be careful, get a couple of BMS drivers close together and they will smoosh your fingers.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

This. Is. Awesome. 

If/when this one makes it back out to California, I will be there. 

I want to go for a ride, anyway.


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## fury (Dec 12, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Does anyone know if it's a bad idea to have a giant neodymium motor in parallel with inductors nearby?


Finally I can provide PB with some (limited) knowledge.

If you follow the black art of crossover design, inductors are always placed on specific angles (typically 90 degrees) to each other. This is so that electrical fields have the minimum interference possible.
I would imagine this would be no different for voice coils / inductors in amplifiers.

In your instance both coils will be in the same direction and no doubt the electrical fields would interfere with eachother given their close proximity.
How much?
Will it make an audible difference?
Will it make a measurable difference?
I don't know... but your Unity's put drivers pretty closely as well.

Here's an interesting post in regards to inductors in crossovers.
Placement of coils in crossover networks


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Does anyone know if it's a bad idea to have a giant neodymium motor in parallel with inductors nearby?
> 
> I have some 8NDL51s that I've thought about turning into coaxials, by 3D printing a bridge and putting a neo tweeter in front. But I'm not sure if the magnetic field from the woofer would screw things up. When I look at these amps that close to that sub, I wonder the same thing.
> 
> ...


Parking in my garage is close quarters, and every time I have my wallet in my pocket, the magnetic billfold in it lunges for my car when I get too close!  

I had the amps in the Passat mounted pretty close to the motor of the sub as well, although it wasn't neo. I don't have any technical answer, but I have found a number of anecdotal replies. The consensus seems to be that while magnets affect certain electronics such as hard drives and televisions, they do not interfere with amp components.

Can the magnet inside a speaker damage an amp? | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums

This guy likes the sound of his "curved electrons" 

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/magnet-too-close-to-tubes.545156/


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

Just run it.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

rton20s said:


> This. Is. Awesome.
> 
> If/when this one makes it back out to California, I will be there.
> 
> I want to go for a ride, anyway.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

cobb2819 said:


> Just run it.


I never planned on doing anything but! I think you're even more eager than I am. :laugh:


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

mikey7182 said:


> Parking in my garage is close quarters, and every time I have my wallet in my pocket, the magnetic billfold in it lunges for my car when I get too close!
> 
> I had the amps in the Passat mounted pretty close to the motor of the sub as well, although it wasn't neo. I don't have any technical answer, but I have found a number of anecdotal replies. The consensus seems to be that while magnets affect certain electronics such as hard drives and televisions, they do not interfere with amp components.
> 
> ...












It hit me, that EAW packs their neo drivers like this. And if that was a bad idea, I think they're the type of company who would know better.

So I'm guessing it's no problem at all. Now I have an excuse to 3D print a coax


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

Sorry Mikey, i have to spill the news...


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Stopping by Jon’s to borrow his RTA as we speak. ?


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

So what's the word Mike?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

fish said:


> So what's the word Mike?


Initial impressions are very good! Very similar to the Passat in terms of output. This is my first round with a Mosconi processor, and really with anything other than a P99 in the last 8-10 years, so there is a bit of a learning curve with regard to manual tuning. I did a quick initial tune (no EQ- just xover and some TA and rough level setting) and am surprised at how great it sounds tonally with no EQ. I borrowed Jon's RTA, but was only able to spend an hour or two with it, so I didn't get as much done as I had hoped, but made a few adjustments with L/R EQ. My stage is not as spot on as the Passat, but it isn't terrible. I have a few more things to dial in, but overall I am very happy with it thus far! Not to mention, the Singer alternator I had built is still sitting on the shelf, as my factory electrical seems happy so far, even in the AZ heat with the AC on and with the stereo fully cranked! The B&C sub is badass. It definitely puts an end to the idea that "pro audio subs can't get down." It is incredibly efficient and has a great response, easily covering 30-80hz. Very minimal adjustments needed for a flat response, also. I am really impressed. The 8s in the doors are really impressive as well. I don't find myself missing the ported 10s, which is suprising. Horns and midrange are great as well, not harsh at all, and no noticeable roll off up top. Overall it appears to be a very well-matched setup, so far.


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

i'm in the phoenix area this week and got a chance to check it out last night.

it's fun to listen to, more fun to ride in, and probably a blast to drive.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

nadams5755 said:


> i'm in the phoenix area this week and got a chance to check it out last night.
> 
> it's fun to listen to, more fun to ride in, and probably a blast to drive.


But how is the weather?


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

?? ?


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

so i have a question about the sub placement and orientation, im no noob to this hobby , but i dont really understand how this IB set up works lol, i have seen a few people doing it this way , but i dont get it . is the woofer out of phase ?


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## m3gunner (Aug 6, 2008)

Yes... the sub is hooked up out of phase so that when a positive pulse is sent to the sub, it moves backwards (but toward the interior of the car) causing a positive pulse inside the cabin.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

nadams5755 said:


> i'm in the phoenix area this week and got a chance to check it out last night.
> 
> it's fun to listen to, more fun to ride in, and probably a blast to drive.


Oh...it's fun to drive!!


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

^ spoken by the next owner?!!! ?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

rton20s said:


> But how is the weather?


Hotter than Satan's taint.  The car is REALLY fun to drive when it's cool outside. Night and day difference.  

Great to meet up with you, Nick! Thanks for all the tips and pointers. It definitely needs more attention to the tune than the hour I gave it a few months ago. After 8 months of collecting gear and building, I was just happy to have it up and running, and it has since moved to the back burner on the list of 48 things I have going on right now. But I WILL get to it!


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## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

When you gonna bring this thing out to LA so I can abuse it a little?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

damonryoung said:


> When you gonna bring this thing out to LA so I can abuse it a little?


Hopefully over Christmas/New Years break. We’ll likely hit Oakland for Primus’ NYE show for year 3 in a row, if they announce it. I was considering flying this year but a drive up the PCH in the S4 is always tempting, especially now with tunes. 

I had a weird issue the other day with what I suspect is either a misfire or a car back pressure issue, but haven’t scanned it yet. It went into limp mode for a sec then reset when I cycled the car and hasn’t had a problem since. Probably just time for plugs and coils. And maybe cat removal. Lol I am not super pleased with the exhaust I have. It’s got some weird rattle sound under WOT that sounds like a leak or a click or something. But the whine of 16-18psi just about drowns that out. I may go back to stock or try to find an AWE setup.


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

hey , what ever you do dont do catless . its the worst thing i ever did to the car , are you dual pulley ? if not i doubt its a cat issue , ive had most exhausts available for the car , the top 2 i loved were , corsa and the miltek full resonated with the rear muffler delete options , if you have any other questions let me know on im , im an audi tech . ian


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

audirsfaux said:


> hey , what ever you do dont do catless . its the worst thing i ever did to the car , are you dual pulley ? if not i doubt its a cat issue , ive had most exhausts available for the car , the top 2 i loved were , corsa and the miltek full resonated with the rear muffler delete options , if you have any other questions let me know on im , im an audi tech . ian


I am dual pulley- GIAC Stage 2 with DP file, and the 180mm CTS crank pulley I believe. Not super aggressive but bigger than stock. What it’s doing is when I am in manual mode, under light to moderate throttle, I’ll gradually accelerate say in 2nd or 3rd and as soon as it hits 6k RPMs, the sound changes and it feels like it’s bogged down a bit as it continues toward redline. If I’m full throttle, this doesn’t happen. Only if I’m spending a little more time with the engine speed up toward redline. It did it a few times over the summer and I thought it might have been the heat. It did it again the other night so I tested it 2-3 times in a row over a few minutes and that’s when EPS went on and I limped to a stop. I’ve gone full throttle a few times since with no issue. Haven’t tried to replicate the issue though as I’m pretty confident it would happen again and I’d rather know what’s causing it.


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

mikey7182 said:


> I am dual pulley- GIAC Stage 2 with DP file, and the 180mm CTS crank pulley I believe. Not super aggressive but bigger than stock. What it’s doing is when I am in manual mode, under light to moderate throttle, I’ll gradually accelerate say in 2nd or 3rd and as soon as it hits 6k RPMs, the sound changes and it feels like it’s bogged down a bit as it continues toward redline. If I’m full throttle, this doesn’t happen. Only if I’m spending a little more time with the engine speed up toward redline. It did it a few times over the summer and I thought it might have been the heat. It did it again the other night so I tested it 2-3 times in a row over a few minutes and that’s when EPS went on and I limped to a stop. I’ve gone full throttle a few times since with no issue. Haven’t tried to replicate the issue though as I’m pretty confident it would happen again and I’d rather know what’s causing it.


yikes ! , i would change plugs to a 9 heat range if you havent , and try a gap of .25 . worked good for me , and fresh coil packs are always nice i used the r8 ones . could also check on fuel pressure , time to do some logs !


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Plugs and coils are both stock. Plugs should be due by now but my shop said they looked fine when it was in last month. I was thinking coils and plugs as well to start. My fuel pump is stock and I have considered a HPFP but haven’t had any issues other than this one. Open throttle it runs like a bat outta hell.


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

i would get the ngk ix series plugs , apr has the part number for the colder 9 heat range ,


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I was finally able to pick up the last piece of the install: the subwoofer grille. I wanted it to mimic the RS4 grille on the car, and it does not disappoint! Jon used laser cut acrylic for the Audi rings, with the same pattern pressed into the mesh. The back side of the acrylic is painted gray, and the result is a mirror finish with dark background. The trim ring overlaps the opening on the baffle to hide the seam, and the grill press fits in and attaches with magnets that align with screws in the baffle. Very happy to finally have this done! Handcrafted does consistently phenomenal work.


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## mumbles (Jul 26, 2010)

Phenomenal work!
Are you happy with the IB performance of the B&C 18's? I've been looking at the 21" versions for home theater, but hadn't considered the 18" for automotive...


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

mumbles said:


> Phenomenal work!
> Are you happy with the IB performance of the B&C 18's? I've been looking at the 21" versions for home theater, but hadn't considered the 18" for automotive...



https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/5576481-post86.html

Here you go.


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## mumbles (Jul 26, 2010)

fish said:


> https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/5576481-post86.html
> 
> Here you go.


Thank you... I seem to recall reading that but I'm old and forgetful. I'll just blame it on being in for the pictures


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## Justintime (Sep 23, 2014)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Does anyone know if it's a bad idea to have a giant neodymium motor in parallel with inductors nearby?
> 
> I have some 8NDL51s that I've thought about turning into coaxials, by 3D printing a bridge and putting a neo tweeter in front. But I'm not sure if the magnetic field from the woofer would screw things up. When I look at these amps that close to that sub, I wonder the same thing.
> 
> ...


That is an impressive IB sub. Do you know how it is secured to the car’s body. I have a 12” IB and used rivet nuts like ErinH did but it seems not secure enough


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Justintime said:


> That is an impressive IB sub. Do you know how it is secured to the car’s body. I have a 12” IB and used rivet nuts like ErinH did but it seems not secure enough


I didn't use rivet nuts on my IB wall. I used a few lag bolts and a few angled brackets with screws. Maybe you're thinking of Truthhunter?


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## Justintime (Sep 23, 2014)

ErinH said:


> I didn't use rivet nuts on my IB wall. I used a few lag bolts and a few angled brackets with screws. Maybe you're thinking of Truthhunter?


My mistake, it was Truthhunter .


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Justintime said:


> That is an impressive IB sub. Do you know how it is secured to the car’s body. I have a 12” IB and used rivet nuts like ErinH did but it seems not secure enough


On the top, it uses two large L brackets that are lag bolted to the baffle and then to the underside of the rear deck. On the bottom, the baffle is bolted to the amp rack which is then bolted to the floor. It is similar to the way I did it in the Passat.


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## Strokelessone (Oct 13, 2018)

Very nice looking setup, wish you were closer, would love to hear it.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Dude I love all of your builds. The custom fab touches on this one are really nice and befitting of the classy ride that is the S4. With the right tune it should be just as killer as the others. I definitely enjoyed my time with the S-10..


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