# Alpine PXE-H650



## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

http://www.alpine-usa.com/en/products/product.php?model=PXE-H650

Does anybody have the technical details on this unit yet? There are plenty of subjective articles about it, but I can't find the specs.

This looks like the sort of thing that might get alot of attention on the forums in the near future, so I thought I would start a thread dedicated to discussion on the subject.


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## brandont (Apr 22, 2005)

The Alpine reps stated that it was their answer to the JL Cleansweep (in so many words), however it's supposed to take it a step further but i'm not too sure where. They should have much more info next CES since I believe it'll be part of the product line for next year.


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## pheenix11 (Jul 31, 2006)

This keeps getting pushed back from April to August to who knows when. It sounds great if only they could actually release it.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

This much I knew from searching 

I'm hoping it is comparable to the 3sixty.2 w/o the PDA interface *crosses fingers*


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Here's a full size pic from Alpine Europe of the remote with all the button functions clearly legible for anyone interested in the layout.

http://www.alpine-europe.com/typo3/uploads/tx_comproductcatalog/pxe_h650.jpg


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Looks nice. Would like to know more myself.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Crutchfield - http://www.crutchfield.com/S-xEFjRNcK160/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?search=pxe%2Dh650&i=500PXEH650


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## The Blue Blur (Sep 14, 2006)

Oddly enough that stock photo shows 2 pairs of rcas on the input side where on the (I'm assuming) production model shown at CES there is only one pair for aux in. I find that odd.


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## BodegaBay (Dec 16, 2005)

Agreed Blue. The unit has two input options, Factory or Aux-In [RCA]. Unless the factory input is tied to a break-out cable that we haven't seen.

The only pre-production working unit I've seen in a photo from the 2007 Detroit Auto Show. From the photo, it looks to be only on pair of RCA input.

BTW, it's not going to be released until July 1st.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

View attachment 1662


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

how much would it have cost to make a stereo sub output?

and it looks like they have 2 inputs, one is the aux rca jacks, the other, unfortunately, looks to be line level to the right of the rca outs. you can see that there is a switch that makes the aux the primary input.

does this thing really have 512 bands of eq? sound like its automated then the only eq the user has is the 3 bands of para eq. does this sound right?


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## BodegaBay (Dec 16, 2005)

Thanks tn. That makes a lot more sense. The picture released througout the web seems goes back to last years (2006!) CES press release. Since then it's been back to R&D to work out the kinks.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

It appears to have 512 bands of equalization...to flatten out the factory response. Then you, the user, have 3 bands of P-EQ.


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## BodegaBay (Dec 16, 2005)

internecine said:


> how much would it have cost to make a stereo sub output?
> 
> and it looks like they have 2 inputs, one is the aux rca jacks, the other, unfortunately, looks to be line level to the right of the rca outs. you can see that there is a switch that makes the aux the primary input.
> 
> does this thing really have 512 bands of eq? sound like its automated then the only eq the user has is the 3 bands of para eq. does this sound right?


It's pretty cheap using a Y-splitter to convert mono to stereo output. Of course you can only make EQ changes to the mono signal.

The line level input is actually the reason for this unit. It's designed to take OEM line level signals and flattens all factory EQ curves; it then processes and "optimize" the output signal based on your car's acoustical environment.A simple line level converter would not be able to do that.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

BodegaBay said:


> *It's pretty cheap using a Y-splitter to convert mono to stereo output.* Of course you can only make EQ changes to the mono signal.
> 
> The line level input is actually the reason for this unit. It's designed to take OEM line level signals and flattens all factory EQ curves; it then processes and "optimize" the output signal based on your car's acoustical environment.A simple line level converter would not be able to do that.


No he means a stereo signal not 2 RCA's, like for someone wanting to do a 3 way upfront with woofers xover fairly high where you could not use a mono signal to drive them. Would have been a great idea to have that option......3-way front plus rear all you would need is the stereo out and a more flexible x-over.


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

> The line level input is actually the reason for this unit. It's designed to take OEM line level signals and flattens all factory EQ curves; it then processes and "optimize" the output signal based on your car's acoustical environment.A simple line level converter would not be able to do that.


i understand that. but it would have been great to make this a dual purose unit by adding another input and making it an outboard processor for aftermarket HUs as well. by adding the extra RCA in you could then have front and rear control from the HU or you could have an aftermarket HU plus an additional aux in. would have been nice.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

internecine said:


> i understand that. but it would have been great to make this a dual purose unit by adding another input and making it an outboard processor for aftermarket HUs as well. by adding the extra RCA in you could then have front and rear control from the HU or you could have an aftermarket HU plus an additional aux in. would have been nice.


It is, it has a wide input voltage rating that goes from low voltage RCAs to higher voltage speaker level signals. It will probably bring some type of RCA to speaker wire adaptor for people using RCA from a head unit.


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## BodegaBay (Dec 16, 2005)

internecine said:


> by adding the extra RCA in you could then have front and rear control from the HU or you could have an aftermarket HU plus an additional aux in. would have been nice.


Ah, I see your point. From an aftermarket h/u point of view, you definitely would lose on-the-fly F/R control. However, I think you can still adjust it from the H650 as a set it and forget it adjustment.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Crutchfield PXE-H650 page updated --> "Expected: 6/15/2007"


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## ocuriel (Oct 7, 2005)

Only 3 bands of peq - No thanks.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

ocuriel said:


> Only 3 bands of peq - No thanks.


Hopefully its a personalizing tuning option on top of the Imprint DSP.


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## The Blue Blur (Sep 14, 2006)

i think crotchfeel typoed that the unit can be adjusted via pc like the headunit. time will tell.


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## ocuriel (Oct 7, 2005)

This made it more interesting to me

* Copied from alpine's website *

*PXE-H650 System Integration Audio Processor *
The PXE-H650 lets consumers improve their factory sound systems with aftermarket components such as speakers, subwoofers and amplifiers, and solves in-vehicle acoustical problems by offering customized, automated cabin analysis and acoustic correction sound capabilities. This is done without the need to replace the factory head unit or having an effect on other vehicle functions. 

The PXE-H650 comes with its own calibrated, omni-directional microphone, which is placed in different areas of the vehicle’s interior to measure the cabin’s acoustics. The unit has two input options, factory or aux-in, and seven channel outputs: front 1 left/right, front 2 left/right, rear left/right, and mono sub. The supplied IMPRINT Sound Manager software application uses MultEQ to collect and aggregate the vehicle’s measurements, plot more than 500 control points to that measurement, and then adjusts the signal to the chosen target curve. Channel crossovers and levels are calculated from the measurements and applied automatically. The result is a custom-tuned system, tailored to best match the vehicle’s hardware components and interior cabin acoustics, all done with a simple automated set-up process. This process is revolutionary because it is done automatically. This is unlike previous solutions that required a highly skilled technician to devote extensive time and effort to fine-tune the system, yet still could not achieve correction in the time domain.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

ocuriel said:


> This made it more interesting to me
> 
> * Copied from alpine's website *
> 
> ...



You can learn more about it here. 

http://www.audyssey.com/index.html


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## Jiggad369 (Aug 18, 2006)

Some article with a little more in-depth.



> Capturing the complexity of an original music composition is a highly subjective experience. Most automotive sound systems today attempt to recreate that music, but the listener actually is not experiencing the artist¹s true vision. Alpine Electronics of America, Inc., the industry-leading manufacturer of mobile media solutions, today announced a new in-vehicle sound system architecture that allows drivers to experience music the way the artist intended: Imprint.
> 
> Alpine¹s Imprint sound architecture is the first automotive system that corrects the acoustical problems inside a vehicle¹s cabin using sophisticated DSP technology. With the introduction of Imprint, Alpine delivers a hardware-plus-software sound system platform with a unique equalization technology that not only overcomes the car¹s inherent acoustical challenges, but also improves the sound stage, tonal balance and definition of music.
> 
> ...


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

One more week and we'll finally have a manual for it


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## BodegaBay (Dec 16, 2005)

Alpine is lagging this year with product updates and manual availabilities on their website.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

BodegaBay said:


> Alpine is lagging this year with product updates and manual availabilities on their website.


See, now you're gonna jinx it


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## BodegaBay (Dec 16, 2005)

Yes but you should have the unit the following week from Crutchfield if they are still on schedule. I'm very curious if this product is significant as I think it is. Along with the MS-8


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

BodegaBay said:


> Yes but you should have the unit the following week from Crutchfield if they are still on schedule. I'm very curious if this product is significant as I think it is. Along with the MS-8


lol, j/k. Actually I'm more interested in the manual for now as well as the one for the MS8 when it comes out, getting the unit will come after some reviews are posted.


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## BodegaBay (Dec 16, 2005)

He he. You could always test one now through Crutchfield's 30-day guaranty then wait until the fall for the MS-8.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

BodegaBay said:


> He he. You could always test one now through Crutchfield's 30-day guaranty then wait until the fall for the MS-8.


Did not realize they did that, but I would feel bad doing it just to test out though, but definetly will keep it in mind for when i decide to buy one of the 2, that is unless I can find it somewhere at a better price then there which is more then like possible with their pricing reputation.


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## BodegaBay (Dec 16, 2005)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Did not realize they did that, but I would feel bad doing it just to test out though, but definetly will keep it in mind for when i decide to buy one of the 2, that is unless I can find it somewhere at a better price then there which is more then like possible with their pricing reputation.


Sorry, I'm not saying to purchase it for the sake of testing it. But if you're a buying consumer who believes that the H650 will do what it advertises then by all means purchase it. If it does make your system that much better, why not keep it? If it doesn't, the retailer guarantees satisfaction. Then you can move on to the MS-8.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

Just to update all you folks waiting for this thing.

My buddy at tweeter says their warehouse has them listed for an expected ship date of 7/18/07. I highly doubt that is accurate and will probably change again, but wanted to tease those waiting for it.


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## ocuriel (Oct 7, 2005)

Not couting on that date, but good to know. Thanks.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

One more day..........lets see what happens!


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

now OUT OF STOCK! (Crutchfield)


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## cthip (Feb 22, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> now OUT OF STOCK! (Crutchfield)


ship date "uncertain" once again. . .


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

alpine's gaining a bad rep with this issue. It seems they always give a premature release date then have to re-nig multiple times.


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## Whiterabbit (May 26, 2006)

looks like a drive 30.

computer control
7 outputs
2 inputs
onboard controls look suspiciously similar

add the microphone and hi-level inputs, and gosh its a dead ringer!


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## BodegaBay (Dec 16, 2005)

t3sn4f2 said:


> now OUT OF STOCK! (Crutchfield)


Did you actually confer with them that they shipped the units? Maybe they sold all the pre-orders and hence its now "out of stock" with future ETA as "uncertain."


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

BodegaBay said:


> Did you actually confer with them that they shipped the units? Maybe they sold all the pre-orders and hence its now "out of stock" with future ETA as "uncertain."


Not sure about that, I was just updating the status inf.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

OH ****! Its up!

http://www.alpine-usa.com/US-en/products/product.php?model=PXE-H650


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## Vash (Aug 5, 2006)

I was browsing through the users manual and I noticed that the h650s crossover is somewhat limited. It only offers 12db/oct for crossing the midbass and tweeters and offer 12db/oct and 24 db/oct for the sub. Not only that, you can only high pass up to 5KHZ for the tweeters (this might not matter to you if you dont cross up this high). The manual EQ is limited also compared to the h701. Anyways I'm not here to knock on it. I also think that it is very powerful in its automated features which I am really excited about. Now someone buy one and do a review!!


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I might order one to try, but I was dissapointed by the crossover and EQ functionality as well. It maybe useful to use this thing in combination with another processor such as the PPI.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

I have been looking at this one for awhile but with the MS-8 on the horizon its hard for me to justify buying an H650 but half the price I am guessing of the MS-8 it might be a bang for the buck if the imprint stuff winds up being really good.


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## truejoker (Apr 1, 2007)

Genxx said:


> I have been looking at this one for awhile but with the MS-8 on the horizon its hard for me to justify buying an H650 but half the price I am guessing of the MS-8 it might be a bang for the buck if the imprint stuff winds up being really good.


for someone that don't know , what is the MS-8 that you toking about ?


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

It is the new JBL processor. Here is a link about it.

http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=65668&highlight=MS-8


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Here's the other one.

http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=65671


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## xencloud (Aug 26, 2005)

the ms-8 doesn't do the room correction thing does it? That seems like a big plus for imprint, although it seems like imprint won't be nearly as adjustable...


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

xencloud said:


> the ms-8 doesn't do the room correction thing does it? That seems like a big plus for imprint, although it seems like imprint won't be nearly as adjustable...


Did you read the threads. It does auto-correction also Gary Biggs ran a proto type in his Regal under the seat for I think it was 1 or 2 seasons from what I understand but never told anyone about it IIRC. He left all his Rane and original processors in place so people thought nothing had changed.(from what I understand) If you read both the threads completely you will get a good idea of what all it will do. It is suppose to be a very impressive piece of processing. Just read everything it will make sense. I had to read it a few times to grasp it all myself.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Andy from Harman giving more details on the MS-8 and comparing it with the PXE-H650.

From Audiogroupforum.com

"There are lots of differences. First, MS-8 is more expensive.

Some technical differences are:
1. MS-8 includes power for speakers.
2. MS-8 includes a center channel output and a matrix surround processor (Logic7), which is more about fixing the image for the passengers than about reproducing an audio equivalent to a roller-coaster ride. The Apine doesn't include a center output and doesn't include that image processing.
3. The MS-8's crossover is fully configurable. It'll support any system of 8 channels or fewer, including 7.1, 5.1, 3.1, or the standard car-audio 2-channel bi-amped or tri-amped front stage and a sub. anything is possible, since all the channels can be anything, but crossover setup is manual in MS-8. It's automatic in the Alpine, but it's less configurable. The outputs are fixed.
4. MS-8 includes an auxiliary input and a remote control and display which allows you to make some adjustments after setup and includs a volume control for those pesky OE systems that include dynamic "bass elimination" (many GM).
5. MS-8's subwoofer level control is a shelf that's applied to all the channels through the crossover and the bass management algorithm. It'll preserve the impact in the front of the car AND add bass.
6. The automatic equalizers are completely different. The Alpine uses a 512-tap filter, which also equalizes phase and sets time alignment. It also includes some spatial averaging for multiple microphone placements (6). When you equalize with the Alipine, the first microphone placement sets the time alignment and the rest of the placements are used to smooth the frequency response over most of the car's interior. Multitap filters that operate in real time are a relatively new possibility. In years past, multitap filters in real time were only a hope, since there weren't many microprocessors that could process all that information quickly enough. The benefits of usiing a multitap filter are that they can be very precise and they equalize phase as well as magnitude since they operate on the impulse response measurement. For one tiny point in space, they can also eliminate the sound of plenty of reflections, but their ability to do that accurately diminishes in larger listening areas, since the effects of reflections at high frequencies can be very different even a few inches away from the original microphone position. The other important thing to note about multitap filters is that the 512 "bands" are distributed in a linear fashion rather than logarithmically. That means the resolution is fixed across the audio band. 512 taps gives you roughly 40 Hz resolution. That means you get 2 adjustment bands between 20 and 100Hz and 25 bands between 10k and 20k. Multitap filters, by default place more adjustment possibilities in the high frequencies than in the low frequencies because of the linear distribution of those "bands". That's the only drawback. The Alipine allows you to select from several target curves for adjustment after the automatic setup.

One more note about multitap: They are the shiznit for headphone EQ, because the "listening space" is fixed. With multitap EQ, you can add the reflective properties of a completely different space and transform the listening area to a completely believable representation of a much larger space. With speakers, that isn't possible yet because both of your ears hear both speakers and moving your head helps you determine the location of sounds (just like when your dog cocks his head when he hears a sound he doesn't recognize--we do the same thing, it just doesn't look so ridiculous).

MS-8's EQ is different. We also use a spatial average, but we use a binaural measurement system and 3 mic positions PER LISTENING POSITION. That gives us 6 measurements per seat for each of the 8 channels plus a time alignment adjustment for each seat. Once the setup is done, you can choose an optimization for any seating position and switch between them. For frequency response EQ, we make standard frequency response measurements, eliminate the phase measurement, average the measurements), calculate the phase response of the average, turn the measurement into an impulse response measurement, apply 8 biquads (filters) to the impulse response according to the target curve and the crossover settings using a very complicated and sneaky algorithm that I can't divulge because we're applying for a patent. The result is a VERY powerful EQ that can be implemented on a relatively inexpensive DSP for each channel and leave plenty of space to use the same algorithm on the eletrical signal of the MS-8's input for flattening of the input signal. The distribution of the bands is logarithmic and makes a completely adjustable target curve easy to implement and accurate. Each speaker location is equalized separately and, because of the spatial average, the acoustic sum of the channels matches the target curve. Once setup is complete, you can fine tune the car using a 31-band drawing tool. You draw the curve you want to hear and the MS-8 implements it and allows you to audition your changes vs. no EQ and vs. the automatic implementation of the predefined target.

Both pieces of equipment are technological marvels and they both include input channel summing and signal conditioning, crossover and EQ). MS-8 includes more stuff (center channel, Logic7, amplifiers, a display and remote, equalization memory and multiple seat optimization, center channel output and automatic input configuration--MS-8 will figure out what you've connected to the input regardless of polarity), but it should. It's more expensive.

Which one sounds better? You'll have to be the judge.

One last note: Both of these products are super-important and may help to revive the industry and get new customers interested in making their cars sound great while preserving their factory user interfaces. They have both been long development processes with plenty of invention and innovation, software development hiccups and decisions about which features to implement. Both products will require some new thinking on the parts of installers and salespeople about how one implements great audio. Simple 2-channel audio isn't dead, but these kinds of advancements make better listening experiences possible using a new set of rules.

Kudos to Jason ad his team for beating us to market. The other difference is that MS-8 isn't quite finished yet-but it will be.
__________________
Andy Wehmeyer
Product Marketing Manager
Harman Consumer Group
Mobile Systems Division"


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I would love to review both processers, with measurements to boot.


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## xencloud (Aug 26, 2005)

sorry to get off on a tangent about the MS-8, but this seemed like the most relevant thread....

So if I have a three way front stage, a pair of rear fill speakers, and a sub, how would you wire this on the MS-8 for best results? How would you utilize the 8 channels to get the most control over the system and use the Logic 7 surround features? 

6 individual channels up front, one out put for the rear, one output to subs? (this would lose stereo rear, but small sacrifice maybe?)


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

I would think there's a couple options there... Could run part of of your front-stage passive if say the high-mid/tweets were in a kick panel maybe and time alignment wasn't an issue... So that would cut your channel need down by two. Or don't run a rear-fill, or instead of full-range rear, consider a mid-bass only rear (running mono). I'm considering simple two-way upfront with sub, so I'll actually have spare channels probably... making a couple mid-bass 8's crossed relatively in rear for non-directivity fairly tempting for subwoofer support.


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## xencloud (Aug 26, 2005)

My driver placement for the 3-way wouldn't be terrible, but I think I would definitely need the full 6 channels of control up front, plus subs....for rear fill maybe I can keep it on some kind of switch to turn it on and off for when I want it I guess.....


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=65668

You can read up on it here, I've asked about how it would work with no center option and Logic 7 on but dont recall the answer.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

So I guess, after just browsing the manual a bit... The trick to overcome the nasty gremlin OEM's have of changing EQ based on volume is to set the oem output and stick it there.. Using the PXE as volume control.

Also optimizing your output level from the oem looks like guesswork.. highest clean signal without distortion... Doesn't appear to assist with that.. just set it high and hope for the best.. I wonder if the higher impedence of the PXE inputs affect the distortion levels verses direct to speakers? I imagine you guys with the right equipment.. oscilloscope etc, could dial in the right output volume easy enough though at a level safe from distortion.

I think it's mainly a race between these two (ms-8 vs PXE) to see which will spank in the market.. I'll bet the PXE makes it out first.. MS-8 isn't mentioned anywhere except forums and other.. except for a little blip in pdf on jbl's site about the beemer show car.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I'd still measure your ourputs on the headunit. In some cases it's not bad at all, just a minor loudness contour below say 50% volume. In that case you could still use your hu's volume control.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

The thing that stinks about the PXE-H650 and the MS-8....
Neither as of today are available.. and no ETA on either that I'm aware of.


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

Lets also note that the MS-8 is roughly twice the price of the alpine. You get what you pay for, it should be better. As far as the Alpine is concerned however, I'm a bit of a home audio guy as well and the Auddessy chips have been used in a lot of receivers for the last few years with great results. They can be a bit flaky though, and the downside is that you can't make simple adjustments to the auto-EQ on the alpine, where as you can on most home AV receivers.


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## xencloud (Aug 26, 2005)

I need this to be available NOW! Are they for sale anywhere, it's holding up my current install!


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

xencloud said:


> I need this to be available NOW! Are they for sale anywhere, it's holding up my current install!


Their Imprint head unit is now out, i believe they should ship late this month from what I understand.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

No the MS-8 is not out yet, they keep saying soon. There are a coupled released prototypes in some of the JBL comp vehicles. You should be able to find the PXE-H650 though if you wanted to go that route.


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## xencloud (Aug 26, 2005)

yea I know the separate unit is out, but I want the pxe-h650 because it would allow you to add imprint to virtually any headunit, including stock. So I want to go ahead and get the H650 now to get my system off the ground, and then upgrade my H/U when I can find one that has all the features I want. NO manufacturer right now makes an H/U that meets my need, it's sad.....


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

What all do you need this HU to do?


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## xencloud (Aug 26, 2005)

the w205 is close, but needs amber lighting. I'm picky. lol

The Avic-D3 is VERY close also, it's probably the closest, but wish it had the SQ of the W205, lol, plus I'd probably be doing the blackbird 2 with the w205 and that's a very nice NAV combo...

So I'm stuck. I would do a single DIN if I could find a more stockish looking unit that does ALL amber lighting, which the 9887 doesn't do! 

They're making my life tough, I guess a W205 with an LED upgrade would be perfect......until then it's just stock+H650 for now, it's the cheapest route to start off with anyway...I like how it leaves my future options open.

Also, the Claron DRZ775USB is nice but has those two silver-blue areas on the left and right.....doh.

My hangups are mostly with lighting and dash matching....


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

What about something like the Eclipse 6610. However, does not have the add on ability like the W205 + H701 option. I picked up a 775USB for my truck and a VCZ625 but I do not have it installed yet.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Though the auto-tuning capability of both MS-8 and PXE units would be a cool toy, I remain a little skeptical about how good they actually will be... As seen with the Premier units, it's eh ok, but it doesn't replace a good RTA and/or a good set of ears for dialing in all the functions.. x-overs, TA, EQ or levels.

I want either one of these units or a cda-9887 for active capability mainly, but on a budget, I'd still consider an 880 or 775 or cd7000 for a decent active head unit.. 

However... DAC's and preamp quality remain the primary factors in your SQ.. There's still a reason high-end two-channel analog preamps still weigh as much as most main-stream brand A/V receivers. 

Shove too much poor circuitry design on a cheaply manufactured chip on cheap circuit boards with cheap power supplies and cheaper pigtail RCA outputs, and I don't care how many 'features' a head unit has, it will still have "cheap stuff" infront of the sound that degrades what the disc is sending the laser.. The reason the old Denon's with NO processing are still going strong on the used market.

Sorry... hehe.. off my purist hi-fi soapbox.  

Anyway........

Anyone heard or seen any availability on either of these processors????


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

My buddy at Tweeter said the expected warehouse date of the PXE-650 is 10/15, but don't hold your breath. With any luck it will be out before Christmas.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

The MS-8 is one badass toy though. Its in the new JBL BMW already on the comp circuit and is doing very well. Biggs had a pre-pre prototype in the Regal and it was winning world titles. I am confident in the MS-8. The alpine not sure yet. The MS-8 still allows the end user to do some tweaking and is supposse to have some amazing processing power. However, at the $800???? or so retail it should.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

I was told the holdup on the MS-8 is making it easy it manually adjust or the user interface. Apparently, the MS-8 is nothing more than a borrowed processor from some Land Rover vehicle-what vehicle I don't know. Is it even from a Land Rover, that part I don't know either, might be rumor.


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## dogstar (Jan 31, 2007)

xencloud said:


> the w205 is close, but needs amber lighting. I'm picky. lol
> 
> The Avic-D3 is VERY close also, it's probably the closest, but wish it had the SQ of the W205, lol, plus I'd probably be doing the blackbird 2 with the w205 and that's a very nice NAV combo...
> 
> ...


Nakamichi?

I know some of them do a nice amber lighting, but I hear a lot of skip problems too.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Genxx said:


> The MS-8 is one badass toy though. Its in the new JBL BMW already on the comp circuit and is doing very well. Biggs had a pre-pre prototype in the Regal and it was winning world titles. I am confident in the MS-8. The alpine not sure yet. The MS-8 still allows the end user to do some tweaking and is supposse to have some amazing processing power. However, at the $800???? or so retail it should.


If they ever get the thing to market.. I wonder what their holdup is.. What's JBL's major malfunction... Still tweaking out the bugs? Getting the manufacturing dialed in? Supply chain problems? Finding a cheap enough chinese child-sweat-shop to mass produce them for pennies on the dollar (like all car audio brands)... Who knows.

Anyone else see a potential opportunity for Audio Control here.. If they were to merely add time alignment to the outputs of ANY of their full-feature OEM units, I'd be ALL over one.. regardless of auto this or that. Add a USB digital input for sticks or players that isn't proprietary.. and it's THE end-all OEM solution for 12V audio, IMHO.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

Hell I wish Audio Control would do something like an all in one processor. I have always been a fan of AC. SO I guess I am a AC fanboy in a way. 

Babs-Get my hopes up like that come on man what are you thinking.LOL


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Yeah man... 

A small box with speaker level or rca inputs for mains.. channel summing, complete digital x-over capabilities, rocking independent EQ and levels on each channel, time alignment in milliseconds or inches, USB digi-inputs, an external RUX style remote but simpler w/ volume and control for the digital input.. Rocking DAC's and great internal preamps (complete audiophile grade).. maybe even separate DC/DC power supply, feeding quality RCA outs.. And not costing a fortune.... Oh, and howbout bluetooth capability or at least a audio/bypass input auto-detecting for a generic bluetooth module.

Now THAT is a brain! With the digi-inputs, then I for one wouldn't give a rats behind how good the output from the OEM unit was... Not with a USB device running lossless.

It's a dream I have.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

I'm glad to see that this topic still getting attention.

I am about to be in the market for one of these units, and at $400 the Alpine would have been well worth a try.

However, it they can't actually deliver the darn thing, I guess I'll have to try a JL cleansweep instead for OEM integration and just get a seperate processor after all. Dammit.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Whiterabbit said:


> looks like a drive 30.
> 
> computer control
> 7 outputs
> ...


What is a drive 30? 

Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

I got to play with a prototype PXE-H650 today.

Side note: Alpine is now shipping these suckers. However, it may be a while before Alpine stocks all retailers. they have quite a cue to fill. So, sit tight.

It does a decent job at tuning a vehicle but left a little to be desired after its auto tuning was done. We still found ourselves heavily relying on a H701 to clean up the wierd stuff we didn't like about the H650's auto routine.

If you are insane about tuning your vehicle and were hoping the H650 will be the cure all for your OEM to aftermarket sound system then you might be dissappointed regarding the results you get and the devices flexibility. 

However, if you are not an anal retard like the rest of us and want to make noticable improvements in your system with little intervention then by all means try it. 

I noticed an immediate improvement from my stock system setings. But, in the long run there are still a few things that I wanted to change to make things perfect. it wasn't there. That's where the H701 came in handy.

Ge0


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I'm curious, how do you interface the h650 to an external processor?


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

durwood said:


> I was told the holdup on the MS-8 is making it easy it manually adjust or the user interface. Apparently, the MS-8 is nothing more than a borrowed processor from some Land Rover vehicle-what vehicle I don't know. Is it even from a Land Rover, that part I don't know either, might be rumor.


Durwood,

It is entirely possible that the MS-8 is in part sourced from the Land Rover, especially consdidering that JBL is Harmon International who sources almost 70% of all OEM car audio (JBL, Infinity, Mark Levinson, Becker, Harmon Kardon, etc., etc.). At the end of the day it probably came from JBL to begin with and now is being re-purposed for the aftermarket. At the end of the day the parts came from China and were assembled in Chatsworth.

-7


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

npdang said:


> I'm curious, how do you interface the h650 to an external processor?


This was a prototype. It was a modified version of the production H650 that added a toslink output and AI-net.

I didn't get too far into the hardware mods. I focused more on the capabilities of the unit. However, I belive this H650 intercepted data prior to being routed to the DAC's and packaged it for multichannel PCM transmission.

They also demostrated the same setup in a Chrysler 300M SRT8 using a generic DSP super box. This box had tons of analog and digital I/O. It had the H650 code set and everything the H701 had to offer (plus more) in one box.

Ge0


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Man wouldn't it be nice if the one that hits the streets had a digital in to go along with the factory ins? Did you see any of the prototypes with any kind of digital input specifically, for an auxiliary player?


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

The point of the excercise in my vehicle was to show how the H650 could improve upon a stock stereo system in minutes. The Alpine rep wanted our group to know the devices capabilities and limitations. No optical input to the module. This stands to reason, it's purpose was to intercept high level output from a vehicles stock amplifier, process it, then send the signal to discrete outboard amps.

They used my vehicle since I already had it ripped apart and they had access to everything they needed . 

The prototype DSP workhorse they had in the SRT8 had numerous I/O channels (16 in, 16 out from what I remember). It had 3 optical inputs and an 3 optical outputs (for what I don't know). It was programmed via USB interface and a PC. 

Both boxes were development tools, not something that is slated for production.

Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Oh, I forgot to mention. This was cool stuff. However, unless something else better comes along in the next few months I'll probably stick with an MS-8 (if it ever gets to market that is). Already have system plans and have purchased some equipment based on it.

Ge0


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Me too, I'm very intrigued by the MS-8 because it's a quick all-in-one with internal chip-amps, but can upgrade as needed.

Interesting... So with any of these oem (speaker-level input) units that re-digitizes the OEM unit output.. I wonder how good the sound quality is of the raw signal, regardless of any processing.

Do you think these things can actually hang in SQ (pure cd signal) with a swapped head unit running burr-browns like maybe the 9887?? 

Or is that a rediculous idea that a speaker level signal already processed to the hilt, can be A to D'd, summed, dsp'd and D to A'd, then preamped out, could even come close to even the less-than-top-tier head units?

The concept is great though, especially for OEM's that are heavily integrated, but I can swap in the 2-din spot I have in the Forester.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I've run signals through an ad/da unit before and couldn't see any difference on a scope. For a car I wouldn't even worry about it at all. I've measured bigger differences just by turning the climate control knob that I have from headunits or amps.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

npdang said:


> I've run signals through an ad/da unit before and couldn't see any difference on a scope. For a car I wouldn't even worry about it at all. I've measured bigger differences just by turning the climate control knob that I have from headunits or amps.


Npdang, what are your thoughts on a high quality output from a CarPC going into the factory headunit threw one of those AUX adapters. Do you think something like that would still be acceptable or do those devices the degrade sound?


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

I know you addressed it to Npdang, but I know a guy on the forester forum that did that... CarPC into a good external soundcard with good dacs, then into a 3sixty.2.. said it sounds great.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Babs said:


> I know you addressed it to Npdang, but I know a guy on the forester forum that did that... CarPC into a good external soundcard with good dacs, then into a 3sixty.2.. said it sounds great.


Threw the OEM head and not the AUX in on the 3sixty?


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Babs said:


> Me too, I'm very intrigued by the MS-8 because it's a quick all-in-one with internal chip-amps, but can upgrade as needed.
> 
> Interesting... So with any of these oem (speaker-level input) units that re-digitizes the OEM unit output.. I wonder how good the sound quality is of the raw signal, regardless of any processing.
> 
> ...


I doubt you would be able to tell the difference between high quality DACs and processed stuff in the noisy environment of an automobile. Especially if it is moving.

To answer your question. Data coming straight off a stock head unit prior to being processed by a vehicles external amp should be pretty clean. Tapping into the audio stream at this point should provide excellent results.

However, everytime you process the signal, especially with marginal OEM equipment, you'll experience signal degridation. If you'll notice this or not is another story.

My advice. Don't get stuck on numbers or cost of equipment. Get stuck on what sounds good. My stock system, with a few tweaks and $700 investment in high quality front stage and a sub amp, sounds close to what my $6K aftermarket system in my last vehicle used to sound like. If I only had the tools to tweak out some abnormalities using the programmable stock amp I'd be set. However, this is not possible. So in order to go that extra step I need to swap out stock stuff for aftermarket gear.

I think the MS-8 with its built in amp channels and a few external amps could be the end all solution for me. I need a sub/ sub amp and a little more power to my front mids. That's it...

Ge0


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Given the different level head units I used in my last car, going from a $200 alpine with mid-fi SQ, to the anniversary Excelon XXV-01D that had dual-differential burr-browns, I can definitely say I could tell the difference.. There were probably other factors in the preamp and other components as well that made a difference so I can't claim the Kenwood's cool dac's alone were the reason, but I can say the noticeable SQ improvement was significant, even in car.... 

I'm starting to lean back again towards the 9887 (imprint or not) as I can easily go aftermarket in this car, and installation would be easier without the need to run another power lead to the processor. And I won't second guess it.. Then like you said, some good though modest amps and the Seas frontstage I'm planning, probably ER's and Neo aluminums.. And the 1st generation 10w6 in back.. I think it will be a nice budget setup.

On amps, I'm really liking the ICEpower options out there but that's another topic entirely.


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

k, i just read the whole thread. What geo mentioned about having a 650 and a 701 is exactly what i was wishing the 650 did. i just read the manual through and it teases you with an adjustable crossover, etc, but no full control over the eq, slopes, and phases on the outputs.

i think alpine could make more money off this guy if they took a 701 and built in the factory leveling options in it.

i'm going to use a JL cleansweep with the factory deck instead.

just my .02.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Thumper26 said:


> k, i just read the whole thread. What geo mentioned about having a 650 and a 701 is exactly what i was wishing the 650 did. i just read the manual through and it teases you with an adjustable crossover, etc, but no full control over the eq, slopes, and phases on the outputs.
> 
> i think alpine could make more money off this guy if they took a 701 and built in the factory leveling options in it.


Couldn't have said this better myself Thump. 

That's why I was so anxiously awaiting the MS-8. However, looks like that will be a while.

Ge0


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

if i were you, i would have been tempted to grab that prototype piece and run. wtf wouldn't they market that?

hell, go with a module design where you buy a chassis with what you need, and buy the modules for factory integration, or whatever later on.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Thumper26 said:


> if i were you, i would have been tempted to grab that prototype piece and run. wtf wouldn't they market that?
> 
> hell, go with a module design where you buy a chassis with what you need, and buy the modules for factory integration, or whatever later on.


The H650 prototype was nothing compared to the development box they had. I hear it contains 16 discrete I/O and an endless sea of digital manipulation goodness. However, these are one of a kind test pieces that probably cost $50K and up to develop.

Ge0


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## oneiztoomany (Oct 1, 2007)

CDA-9887 *>* (stock HU + H650)


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

oneiztoomany said:


> CDA-9887 *>* (stock HU + H650)


Oh really....Care to elaborate?


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## oneiztoomany (Oct 1, 2007)

azngotskills said:


> Oh really....Care to elaborate?


already did!

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21205&page=2


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