# 8" midbass recommendation



## Reece514

Which 8" MB driver would you guys recommend to use with ES Full size horns with BMS 4550 or 4553 ND drivers? I will be using a single 12" sub; not sure which one at the moment. Thanks in advance!


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## SkizeR

check out the melodic acoustic intimid8rs.. theres actually a few for sale on the forums right now


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## jpeezy

If your on a budget, check out Faital pro, they're available from both us speaker and parts express


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## minbari

SkizeR said:


> check out the melodic acoustic intimid8rs.. theres actually a few for sale on the forums right now


not gonna work with horns. those things are monsters, but not very efficient.

what kind of money you want to spend?

faital makes a nice 8" MB that is only about $60
B&C makes a nice one that is about $180.

both are about 95db 1w/1m

surprisingly, the Silver Flute 8" is about 93db 1w/1m and is only $37.


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## edzyy

b&c 8ndl51


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## mrstangerbanger

Hybrid L8v1 or v2 

JL Zr800


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## Reece514

Thanks for all the recommendations!! I would like to stick with pro drivers and I would like to keep the budget under/at $200 each. I was also considering 18 Sound 8NMB420. I will check out the above recommends. Please, keep 'em coming!!


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## Eric Stevens

In addition to whats been mentioned Look at Beyma, they have a 8G40 I believe in 4 ohms.

Eric


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## Reece514

Eric,
Thanks for the recommend. I will give these a look. If anyone else has any ideas, I would love to hear them. Thanks!!


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## mosconiac

Is this the faital you are talking about? Only $48!

FaitalPRO 8FE200 8" Professional Woofer 4 Ohm 294-1170


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## minbari

mosconiac said:


> Is this the faital you are talking about? Only $48!
> 
> FaitalPRO 8FE200 8" Professional Woofer 4 Ohm 294-1170


that is the one, $10 cheaper than us speakers too


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## edouble101

mrstangerbanger said:


> Hybrid L8v1 or v2
> 
> JL Zr800


ZR800 does not proficiently play high enough for HLCD's. Nor is it nearly as sensitive. There would be a huge gap in fr and overall dynamics would suffer under 1khz.


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## subterFUSE

I am also looking for some 8" midbass to compliment some ES Ultra horns.


Here is the proposed setup:

Ultra horns from Eric S w/ full size. (Going to try full size horn first, if it fits)

??????? Midbass in front doors.

Two B&C 15NW100 subs, trunk baffle.


My amplifier is an Audison Voce AV5.1k. This is already owned, so I was planning to use it. I think it will work well?

It is a 5-channel with the following specs:

2 x 75W @ 4 ohm (Class A)
2 x 140W @ 4 ohm (Class AB)
1 x 600W @ 4 ohm (Class D)


I think the Class A channels will be perfect for the horns.

The 140W channels would be for my midbass, but I am uncertain whether or not that is enough power for some of the 8 ohm drivers that I've seen so far? For example, the 18 Sound 8MB500. Or am I totally off base? Is 70W enough for those? (I'm assuming that what my amp would give at 8 ohms?)

Any thoughts on some 8" midbass that would work in my scenario?


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## edzyy

Those FaitalPRO 8FE200's are damn good for their price. May be the best value in pro audio right now.


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## subterFUSE

Those prices are really good. It's almost shocking to me that a good speaker could be so cheap.

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on my amp with an 8 ohm midbass?


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## edzyy

I like a lot of amplifier headroom, but you should be fine with what you have.


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## jmp1125

mrstangerbanger said:


> Hybrid L8v1 or v2


+1 on the hybrid L8s. The dynaudio mw180s are nice too


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## Chris659

mrstangerbanger said:


> JL Zr800



Just put a set of these in the front doors of my '12 Beetle and these things rock!!


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## subwoofery

edzyy said:


> Those FaitalPRO 8FE200's are damn good for their price. May be the best value in pro audio right now.


I'd go with those coz they are available in 4 ohm too. 

Kelvin


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## BuickGN

I agree that the MW182 is a badass midbass. Lots of cone area, over 1" of throw, will play past 2,000hz easily, very shallow and low profile, and will get as low as you could ever want them to. With 300w and a 60hz highpass they never lose their composure. A very versatile midbass, I'm surprised more people don't use them. 

However, they might not be the best to use with horns with their very average efficiency. I have 300w on each of mine and while they get loud and low, I don't think they are loud enough for horns, not in the 100hz+ area. They're great if you need to play lower than a standard pro audio mid woofer but with horns you're going to need lots of power. Who knows, maybe they would work but maybe not the best choice.


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## subterFUSE

Chris659 said:


> Just put a set of these in the front doors of my '12 Beetle and these things rock!!


Re: JL Audio ZR800

Those look like nice speakers, but there might be a couple of potential issues for my application:

1. I'm not sure that I should be running them with 140 Watts. JL site says warranty void over 125 Watts. Should that be a concern?

2. The sensitivity is 87 dB, which might not be a good match for my horns?


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## Eric Stevens

subterFUSE said:


> Re: JL Audio ZR800
> 
> Those look like nice speakers, but there might be a couple of potential issues for my application:
> 
> 1. I'm not sure that I should be running them with 140 Watts. JL site says warranty void over 125 Watts. Should that be a concern?
> 
> 2. The sensitivity is 87 dB, which might not be a good match for my horns?


The ZR800 is only recommended up to 500 Hz ruling it out for use in a horn system. The low Sensitivity makes it not a top contender as well.

Eric


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## BuickGN

Eric Stevens said:


> The ZR800 is only recommended up to 500 Hz ruling it out for use in a horn system. The low Sensitivity makes it not a top contender as well.
> 
> Eric


Eric, could you give an opinion of the Dyn MW182 as a midbass for use with horns? I run them up to 700hz right now but I've used them as a 2-way playing to 2khz. I know the efficiency isn't very good but with say 400w+, do you think they would have a chance in hell of working? They will take the power, no problem. They handle 300w with a 60hz highpass just fine right now. Just wondering if it's something I should try in the future or pass. I've wanted to try horns but I'm also looking to go subless in another car so I really wanted to use these midbasses.

Dynaudio - Technical Specifications Woofer MW 182


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## minbari

hard to tell from those graphs, but it looks like they are about 88db 2.87v/1m. that would make them 85db 1w/1m.

pair that up to a 108-111db 1w/1m horn and you will need a ton of power on the midbass. I dont think it is a matter of not working, but getting them to work well AND both get loud might be a trick.

look at it this way, if you give the horn 1 watt, you will need to give the MW182 over 1000 watts RMS to get as loud. I think that is why most people get midbass that are 92-95 db 1w/1m. From a power perspective, it is 10X more sensitive.


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## BuickGN

minbari said:


> hard to tell from those graphs, but it looks like they are about 88db 2.87v/1m. that would make them 85db 1w/1m.
> 
> pair that up to a 108-111db 1w/1m horn and you will need a ton of power on the midbass. I dont think it is a matter of not working, but getting them to work well AND both get loud might be a trick.
> 
> look at it this way, if you give the horn 1 watt, you will need to give the MW182 over 1000 watts RMS to get as loud. I think that is why most people get midbass that are 92-95 db 1w/1m. From a power perspective, it is 10X more sensitive.


That's depressing....


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## danno14

> b&c 8ndl51


hmmm.....now, don't i have a pair of these sitting around here someplace?......


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## ricktjr

How about these? Rainbow Audio USA


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## Eric Stevens

BuickGN said:


> Eric, could you give an opinion of the Dyn MW182 as a midbass for use with horns? I run them up to 700hz right now but I've used them as a 2-way playing to 2khz. I know the efficiency isn't very good but with say 400w+, do you think they would have a chance in hell of working? They will take the power, no problem. They handle 300w with a 60hz highpass just fine right now. Just wondering if it's something I should try in the future or pass. I've wanted to try horns but I'm also looking to go subless in another car so I really wanted to use these midbasses.
> 
> Dynaudio - Technical Specifications Woofer MW 182


I had Dynaudio 24w100 in my Sable at one point, I can't find T/S parameters to compare to MW182. I loved them and they did a great job but I seem to remember them being 90dB or so with a low Qts. 

The MW182 would probably do a very good job with horns or even a good large format tweeter. I think that in a system with a subwoofer better results could be achieved with a higher sensitivity midbass driver though.

Eric


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## Patrick Bateman

some thoughts on why an array of small midbasses might work for you.
And also why the Dynaudios and Morels can sometimes keep up with the prosound gear:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1974375-post216.html


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## probillygun

ricktjr said:


> How about these? Rainbow Audio USA


I don't think they are effecient enough either to keep up with Horns, maybe try 2 sets of them?


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## jsketoe

Just a question...I understand the sensitivity difference..but with these high end processors avail now I would think if you could get 90db efficient on the midbass you could pad the horns.


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## minbari

You can do that with any setup. Get a 82db midbass and turn the horns down to match. 
Its just a bit of waste of the horn efficiency. 
Also, the very dynamic sound of the horn may not blend well with a lesser dynsmic midbass

sent from my phone using digital farts


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## jsketoe

Oh I agree...u lose a positive of a horn.


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## minbari

jsketoe said:


> Oh I agree...u lose a positive of a horn.


since you are at the planning stage, I just wouldnt plan for losing that positive. might as well get a MB that will work well from the start.


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## Patrick Bateman

minbari said:


> You can do that with any setup. Get a 82db midbass and turn the horns down to match.
> Its just a bit of waste of the horn efficiency.
> Also, the very dynamic sound of the horn may not blend well with a lesser dynsmic midbass
> 
> sent from my phone using digital farts


This always makes me scratch my head. IMHO dynamics are tied to output, not to efficiency. And a *lack* of dynamics is tied to a *lack* of output, not to a lack of efficiency.

For instance, if you have an 8" woofer with a sensitivity of 95dB and if it can take 50 watts without running out of displacement, then you'll be able to generate 112dB of output.

If you have a 3" woofer with a sensitivity of 85dB and it can take 25 watts without running out of displacement, then you'll be able to generate 99dB of output.

The key here, is not running out of displacement. IMHO, a lot of low efficiency drivers have heavy cones and low resonances. And that means that they put out a lot of bass, *and THAT makes them run out of displacement before they reach their thermal power limits.*

But there's a really simple solution to this problem. Either put the driver in a small sealed box that will keep it's excursion under control, or use a high pass filter. Or both.

Do that, and even small drivers can sound very dynamic.

Dan Wiggins used to sell these 4" drivers that were as dynamic as any 6" woofer I'd heard. Their sensitivity was hopelessly low, but their displacement was epic.


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## mikey7182

Patrick, what would you attribute the sound characteristic differences to between say a JBL 2118H and a B&C 8NDL51? Or more drastic/obvious, a 2118H vs a Peerless SLS 8" or Dynaudio 8"? In my experience- and this sentiment seems to be echoed by Eric Stevens- certain drivers have a 'sound' to them that pair better with horns. For example, if I were to do a setup with horns, I would always choose a pro audio mid such as the two I mentioned, or even a 2206H and dedicated midrange such as the Audax PR170M0, over something like the Peerless SLS 8" or some other 'conventional' home audio driver. It seems that the 'snap' or 'flare' or 'live concert' sound characteristic or whatever you want to call it is prevalent among pro audio drivers which tend to have higher efficiencies, higher Fs, lower xmax, etc than DIY home audio/car audio drivers.

Throughout my installs, I've noticed a distinct difference, especially in the snare region, between pro drivers and non-pro. Even the JBL 2204H/2118H/DE500 3-way I had in my last install (and that I am preparing to install again), the midbass and snare was almost painful, but more than that, the 'sound' was distinctly different. It literally sounded like being at a live show, even at low volumes. I've not experienced that with regular car audio drivers or DIY home stuff.

I know you're talking about dynamics, but in my experience, that has tended to go hand in hand with the pro drivers I've used, and they tend to have certain characteristics, the most obvious of which is sensitivity/efficiency. Are you saying an array of 3" drivers, given the ability to mirror the efficiency of a larger single pro audio driver, would have the same dynamics? Or is there something else to pro drivers that give them their distinct sound? Sorry for rambling! Hope that was coherent!


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## subwoofery

I've experienced this as well when I helped my friend with his system - it really shows differences when playing at a not so high volume... 
I also feel that pro-audio drivers have a different sound to them. 

Kelvin


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## ErinH

May not be the answer, but one thing I've noticed about people running HE drivers is they are a LOT more cognizant of their crossover points... And they aren't crossing them at or below Fs like most who run non-HE drivers. 

And there, to me, is the correlation to a dynamic system. As Patrick mentioned, and I agree with fully, the sensitivity has less to do with the dynamics of the system as the implementation. When I quit running drivers to "the ragged edge" of crossover points (ie; didn't cross my 7" mid bass at 40hz), I was able to throw more power on them and the dynamicism of the system increased substantially. It seems common sense, but not necessarily common practice. All my drivers are standard efficiency drivers, and I'd estimate I cross them nearly twice as high as most others using them or would if they owned them (just basing this off what I know of the majority of people in this hobby; certainly not everyone). 

My JL 8's have that "pro audio" sound to them, and I've had people give me similar feedback. I never felt that way about them until I bumped the crossover up about an octave. 

Bottom line, I'm agreeing with Patrick. Ultimately you either have efficiency and are more aware of the crossover or you have power and reasonable crossovers for the output you desire. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## TheScottishBear

The difference in my frontstage was huge. I switched from a 10" poly cone to a 12" pro audio full range and the difference is amazing. The midbass and output is crazy. Tracks like Phoenix's "fences" and "Drill Sargent" from NERD will make you blink from the attack. Great dynamics. 
On the 3" array I could see a driver like the Faital Pro being a good option? FaitalPRO 3FE22 3" Neodymium Professional Woofer 4 Ohm | 294-1100. Has a higher fs but 6 or 8 of them in a door should give some decent output right.


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## REGULARCAB

bikinpunk said:


> May not be the answer, but one thing I've noticed about people running HE drivers is they are a LOT more cognizant of their crossover points... And they aren't crossing them at or below Fs like most who run non-HE drivers.
> 
> And there, to me, is the correlation to a dynamic system. As Patrick mentioned, and I agree with fully, the sensitivity has less to do with the dynamics of the system as the implementation. When I quit running drivers to "the ragged edge" of crossover points (ie; didn't cross my 7" mid bass at 40hz), I was able to throw more power on them and the dynamicism of the system increased substantially. It seems common sense, but not necessarily common practice. All my drivers are standard efficiency drivers, and I'd estimate I cross them nearly twice as high as most others using them or would if they owned them (just basing this off what I know of the majority of people in this hobby; certainly not everyone).
> 
> My JL 8's have that "pro audio" sound to them, and I've had people give me similar feedback. I never felt that way about them until I bumped the crossover up about an octave.
> 
> Bottom line, I'm agreeing with Patrick. Ultimately you either have efficiency and are more aware of the crossover or you have power and reasonable crossovers for the output you desire.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


dynamicism is that a word? either way im going to use it more often. And i agree i have always had more luck running speakers well within there limits, you get more dynamicism


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## mikey7182

Well I feel like there are two conversations taking place here- one about 'dynamics' and the other about 'characteristics' of different drivers, and I was attempting in my last post to construct a bit of a Venn diagram to see where the two merge vs. where they do not. I don't think that the characteristics I am describing, and that others have experienced, can be reduced to the dynamics of a setup. In other words, once we start down that road, we head toward the 'all amps sound the same' argument, but with drivers. 

I do agree with you Erin, in that when you don't run a small format (6-7") midbass down to 40hz, you can increase its dynamic ability. I think that much is obvious. If you have an 6.5" driver that runs out of xmax at 50hz with 70w input and has an output of 101db at that input, and then you implement a HPF at 100hz or 125hz instead of 40-50hz, you're going to increase how loud (dynamic) that driver can be above the new HPF, whereas before, its output at, say 300hz, was being limited by the amount of power it could withstand at 40-50hz before launching cone through door panel.  You could run that same 6.5" driver as a dedicated midrange with a HPF at 250hz and probably feed it 400w before it went thermal, having never neared its mechanical limits. 

With that said, I wouldn't say that the only difference in 'sound characteristic' between a JBL 2118H and a Peerless SLS or JL IB8 or Dynaudio, or HAT L8, or a ton of other lower efficiency, higher xmax drivers is Crossover Frequency Implementation. In other words, this is where the overlap between 'dynamics' and 'characteristics' ends, in my experience. Speakers all have their own unique sound, and while to a certain degree, you can make some sound very similar to others with the use of EQ, phase, xover, slope, etc, certain types of drivers still have a 'sound' to them. This is what I am curious about- if it can be explained through some common T/S parameters, cone material, etc. 

The B&C 8NDL51 has an Fs of 66hz, and sensitivity of 94db 1w/m. The 2118H has an Fs of 85hz, and sensitivity of 97db 1w/m. As a direct swap, the JBL was louder at any given volume as anticipated, but even with the levels reduced, they sounded different. Much more clarity and presence, especially in the snare, more coherent/less muddled. I would describe the B&C as 'laid back' or 'neutral' compared to the JBL. And this comparison is between two pro drivers. Comparing the 2118H to something like the Peerless SLS was quite a bit more severe. This was with a HPF at 100hz, 24db slope. 

I guess what I'm saying is I don't think that raising the HPF on something like the Peerless, then feeding it 4-5x the power to give it the same output as something like the 2118H is going to make the Peerless have the 'sound' of the JBL. Well, by "don't think" I mean "it doesn't."  While doing this will greatly increase the dynamic ability of a driver like the Peerless, it doesn't give it the characteristics of a pro audio driver. And what constitutes those sound characteristics is what my last post was chasing after.


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## mikey7182

I always chuckle a bit when I hear guys are running 6" mids down to 40hz, in the same way I chuckle when I see someone towing a pair of jet skis with a Honda Civic. 

I know most guys don't even run 8" drivers as midbass, let alone midrange, and it's probably considered fairly ridiculous by the average person to install a pair of 12" ported midbass in a vehicle, much less a single cab S10 you've hacked a big hole in, but god damn, they sure get the job done much better than a pair of Pioneer 720PRS!


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## fenis

I believe using more efficient pro audio style speakers contributes to that enjoyable "live" sound dynamic feel mainly due to one thing that hasn't been mentioned - less power compression!

Most manufacturers don't disclose power compression figures (Beyma and 18sound are the only ones I know of). Check out this 18sound 10NW650 midbass:

Nominal Diameter	260 mm (10 in)
Rated Impedance	8 Ohm
AES Power	300 W
Program Power	600 W
Peak Power	1200 W
Sensitivity	96 dB
Frequency Range	60 ÷ 6000 Hz
*Power Compression @-10dB	0,5 dB
Power Compression @-3dB	1,3 dB
Power Compression @Full Power	2,3 dB*

Fs	51 Hz
Sd	0,0346 sq.mt. (53,6 sq.in.)
Qts	0,28
Vas	48 lt (1.70 cu.ft.)
Mms	34 g (0.07 lb)
BL	14 Tm
Linear Mathematical Xmax	± 7 mm (±0.28 in)
Max Peak To Peak Excursion	25 mm (0,98 in)
Le (1kHz)	0,70 mH
Ref. Efficiency [email protected] (half space)	95,2 dB

This is a very well designed driver with good ventilation and it loses 2.3db of output at 600w (which is very impressive and probably hard to beat). 

So some may argue that only total displacement matters but HOW is the speaker arriving at that total displacement? If a 100db 1w/1m speaker is playing at 109.5db (receiving only 10w and assuming 0.5db power compression losses) then a 90db speaker probably needs approx 200w to also reach 109.5db (approximating power compression losses at 200w). So even though they are both putting out 109.5db, are they going to have the same dynamic character/live sound feel given that one is cruising along on only 10w, and the other heating up with 200w? The less efficient speaker might sound ok for the first few minutes but then the heat slowly builds up, resistance increases etc. Check out this comparison of the 18sound interleaved sandwich coil (with more surface area to dissipate heat) vs a normal coil:









In my limited experience with pro audio vs car audio drivers, I've always perceived the more efficient drivers to have a more dynamic/snappy sound. I don't know if I'm 100% correct but perhaps when a speaker is less heated up it responds quicker to the input signal and tracks transient peaks (eg. sharp attack/leading edge of a snare drum waveform) more faithfully = a more snappy/dynamic sound.

Also does a higher BL/mms ratio and low inductance influence this?


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## thehatedguy

I agree with Mikey...no matter how much power you throw at a conventional driver, it just doesn't have the sound (or dynamics) that a pro driver has. And has no where near the output.

And I have never heard a group of small speakers that have the same Sd as a larger one that had the same...I don't know how to describe it as anything other than power or grip as a larger one. I've heard cars with 4 6.5s per side and they got loud, but they never sounded the same as a single 8 or 10. Same with subs...did lots of cars with 3-6 8s or 4 10s that on the meter was loud and got down pretty low, but the single 15 felt bigger in how it replayed the music.

Which is why I never did the 4 6s per side manifold loaded on the rear deck for midbass...I didn't think it would ever fool me into believing I had a 10 on each side.

And power compression...yeap that gets missed a lot too, and the reason why you can't dump 200x the power on a speaker to make up for the output differences in sensitivity.

And I'm still not convinced a **** ton of excursion really matters past a certain point. To me surface area of a single speaker means more than excursion. You put a 24dB slope on those boys at 80 hertz, you are going to have to dump a serious amount of power on them to really start to get to the mechanical limits. And like I said, matters to a point. I mean we have cabin gain starting to really work for us and still have output from the sub...there's a lot going on helping out the bottom end roll off and limited excursion.

Also look at the efficiency of the pro drivers to the commercial ones...not sensitivity, but the No of the speaker- how efficient is it in converting the electrical input to acoustical output. Yeah I know the sensitivity can be calculated from No, but I've seen speakers with similar sensitivity numbers with pretty different No values. But that's just been a pet theory of mine and haven't had any backing up of it.


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## ErinH

mikey7182 said:


> Well I feel like there are two conversations taking place here- one about 'dynamics' and the other about 'characteristics' of different drivers, and I was attempting in my last post to construct a bit of a Venn diagram to see where the two merge vs. where they do not. I don't think that the characteristics I am describing, and that others have experienced, can be reduced to the dynamics of a setup. In other words, once we start down that road, we head toward the 'all amps sound the same' argument, but with drivers.


And I didn't really intend to imply that, though, I can certainly see where it seems that way. 

My only assertation was that there seems to be a correlation to the use of a standard efficiency (SE) driver compared to a HE driver. In that, the crossover points set to a reasonable point lend the driver to be able to take more power. The correlation to the topic is most people running HE drivers are more aware of their crossover's impact (especially those coming from SE drivers because they know or have been told HE drivers don't have the excursion capability the SE), and people running SE drivers usually are more apt to push the limits. This is where thermal compression would be further mitigated as well. (you still have effects of the motor and suspension compression but when the HPF >> Fs (Re) the compression effect is lessened considerably from what I understand). 

That said, I certainly think there are other variables to the equation that give what that 'pro audio' sound to a driver. Maybe it's the relation of motor force and mms, or tied to inductance. I honestly don't know... I don't have the experience and engineering to give an answer, so that's just a very general take on it.


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## thehatedguy

I don't know enough about it either. Force factor might be something, power compression another, and limited/smaller bandwidths might be something too. I don't think T/S parameters tell the whole story though, or much of it...maybe it does and I just don't understand?

I read an interview with a speaker designer (not raw drivers, but whole systems) and he contributed that punch and snap with a high Qms. Which to me held true to every speaker that I liked except for 2- the 2118 and the Audax which have Qms values around 2-3 and the B&C 8NDL51 has a Qms of over 3 and it isn't as snappy....so I don't know where to go with that line of thought.

I dunno, to me it seems to be speaker building is like life, the fewer things you are asked to excel in, the easier it is to excel in those things. It's easier to do 2-3 things really really well than 10-12 things really well.

Maybe low linear distortion in the passband?


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## ErinH

I'm with you. I don't know that it can be boiled down to small signal parameters only. with anything, I'm sure it's a combination of all things (response, distortion, implementation) as opposed to a single or couple things. what they are, and how different they are to SE drivers isn't something I'm knowledgeable in. heck, part of me wonders how much it's tied to psychoacoustics as well.


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## mikey7182

bikinpunk said:


> I'm with you. I don't know that it can be boiled down to small signal parameters only. with anything, I'm sure it's a combination of all things (response, distortion, implementation) as opposed to a single or couple things. what they are, and how different they are to SE drivers isn't something I'm knowledgeable in. heck, part of me wonders how much it's tied to psychoacoustics as well.


I would be curious about psychoacoustics as well. Although I must say, the very first HE/horn experience I had was in Dave's (ClinesSelect) Dodge Ram. I met up with him a few months after I joined DIYMA to sell him a 9887 and to show him my newly installed Pioneer PRS setup, complete with the new 800PRS, 720PRS components, PRS amps, and woofers. What (in my naivete) I thought was a pretty rockin' setup. He listened and nodded, then said "wanna hear my truck?" I had no idea what he had in it (fullsize ID lenses/DE500 compression drivers and 2118s in the doors) and about 30 seconds into a live DMB track, all I could think was "what in the actual **** is in here?!?"  I went home and tore out the Pioneer gear and haven't done a non-horn install since.

I would be interested in a true blind test- one where you could see just how dynamic/snappy a lower efficiency/DIY mid could be made to sound implementing higher crossover points, more power, etc. I am with Winslow though in that I think compression probably plays a role. The ability to get very loud with relatively minimal power input has to be an advantage. And aside from sound characteristics, the obvious advantages of less amplification requirements, less electrical taxation, etc. have always appealed to me about using HE drivers, vented enclosures, etc. I've become obsessed with efficiency and all my builds are designed around that now.


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## bassfromspace

MMS?


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## edzyy

thehatedguy said:


> I agree with Mikey...no matter how much power you throw at a conventional driver, it just doesn't have the sound (or dynamics) that a pro driver has. And has no where near the output.
> 
> And I have never heard a group of small speakers that have the same Sd as a larger one that had the same...I don't know how to describe it as anything other than power or grip as a larger one.
> 
> 
> 
> *I've heard cars with 4 6.5s per side and they got loud, but they never sounded the same as a single 8 or 10. *
> 
> 
> 
> Same with subs...did lots of cars with 3-6 8s or 4 10s that on the meter was loud and got down pretty low, but the single 15 felt bigger in how it replayed the music.
> 
> Which is why I never did the 4 6s per side manifold loaded on the rear deck for midbass...I didn't think it would ever fool me into believing I had a 10 on each side.
> 
> And power compression...yeap that gets missed a lot too, and the reason why you can't dump 200x the power on a speaker to make up for the output differences in sensitivity.
> 
> And I'm still not convinced a **** ton of excursion really matters past a certain point. To me surface area of a single speaker means more than excursion. You put a 24dB slope on those boys at 80 hertz, you are going to have to dump a serious amount of power on them to really start to get to the mechanical limits. And like I said, matters to a point. I mean we have cabin gain starting to really work for us and still have output from the sub...there's a lot going on helping out the bottom end roll off and limited excursion.
> 
> Also look at the efficiency of the pro drivers to the commercial ones...not sensitivity, but the No of the speaker- how efficient is it in converting the electrical input to acoustical output. Yeah I know the sensitivity can be calculated from No, but I've seen speakers with similar sensitivity numbers with pretty different No values. But that's just been a pet theory of mine and haven't had any backing up of it.
Click to expand...

I'm dealing with this now

I have some modded jehnert door panels with space for 4 8's & I'm afraid it's gonna sound like crap


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## thehatedguy

4 8s in each door? ****...that would be fun.


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## edzyy

Sounds fun, but a huge pain to execute. 

I have these 









The pods were modded to add clearance for 4 8's. 

I was thinking about putting 1 midrange upfront and 3 midbass further back. 

Excuse my poor ms paint skills, but something like this









Pretty sure I'll run into all sorts of issues, though. 

Gonna tackle it once it gets warmer.


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## SQram

mikey7182 said:


> I would be curious about psychoacoustics as well. Although I must say, the very first HE/horn experience I had was in Dave's (ClinesSelect) Dodge Ram. I met up with him a few months after I joined DIYMA to sell him a 9887 and to show him my newly installed Pioneer PRS setup, complete with the new 800PRS, 720PRS components, PRS amps, and woofers. What (in my naivete) I thought was a pretty rockin' setup. He listened and nodded, then said "wanna hear my truck?" I had no idea what he had in it (fullsize ID lenses/DE500 compression drivers and 2118s in the doors) and about 30 seconds into a live DMB track, all I could think was "what in the actual **** is in here?!?"  I went home and tore out the Pioneer gear and haven't done a non-horn install since.


Always loved his install, mine is very similar. Wonder what happened to him, he seems to have vanished from the forum...


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## mikey7182

SQram said:


> Always loved his install, mine is very similar. Wonder what happened to him, he seems to have vanished from the forum...


He's around. I see him once or twice a month and we talk regularly. He's busy with work and hasn't changed his build in a few years. I am actually helping him sell off a bunch of his stash. Some of it is listed now, and lots more to come!


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## Eric Stevens

Patrick Bateman said:


> Do that, and even small drivers can sound very dynamic.
> 
> Dan Wiggins used to sell these 4" drivers that were as dynamic as any 6" woofer I'd heard. Their sensitivity was hopelessly low, but their displacement was epic.


I heard the drivers you mention from Dan and while they made you go hmmm they sounded far from good at anything above somewhat moderate volumes. The coloration and distortion were clearly audible. They were loud but not loud and clear and this was listening to Dans CES demo of them set up by him. The louder they got the worse the midrange sounded.

Eric


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## mikey7182

edzyy said:


> Sounds fun, but a huge pain to execute.
> 
> 
> 
> The pods were modded to add clearance for 4 8's.
> 
> I was thinking about putting 1 midrange upfront and 3 midbass further back.
> 
> Pretty sure I'll run into all sorts of issues, though.
> 
> Gonna tackle it once it gets warmer.


Where'd you get these door panels? (Sorry, I deleted the pics for quotes' sake). 

Are the driver locations already cut out or is it essentially a blank canvas? Does their design assume an IB install, or could these pods accomodate some type of sealed/ported enclosure? If you could fit and enclosure, I think a single ported 10" midbass or a pair of ported 8" midbass toward the back of the panel/pod, then a single 8" midrange up front would be suhweeeeet.

IB is fine, but if you want some serious output, midbass enclosure is the way to go. If you could fit a pair of 8NDL51 in about 1cf net, tuned to 60hz, that would absolutely jam. Or a single Pyle PCW10S:

PylePro - PCW10S - 10'' High Power High Performance Midbass

Shallow as **** (~3.1"), 100db sens, 60hz Fs, 3 ohms, and cheap. There's an 8" version too but I think the Fs is quite a bit higher. Always wanted to play around with the Pyles, just cuz they look like fun and the specs got me curious. Anyway, just thinking out loud...


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## cajunner

I think the difference is mainly non-pistonic activity from the JBL, which ties into the psychoacoustics of live sound and how the cone cry parts introduce distortion that makes the sound more "live" like that of an actual performance, the parts of the sound the microphone didn't capture in it's attempt.

the better the cone the less cone cry and the more behaved in response, so the less like live sound.

SE drivers are towards this end, while the JBL exists to produce sheer output, the cone is paper and flexes easily, with a powerful motor behind it using a motor topology that wastes none of the electromotive forces on excursion-related, bass extension.

The further away you get from this design parameter, all the way to sandwich cones and pistonic response designs using 4 elements across the spectrum with crossovers, the less you introduce the live sound characteristic, and the closer you get to hi-fi.

some people don't need hi-fi as much as they need the visceral response, these are your less timid audio brethren, unafraid to experience the jarring, raw physicality of pro audio systems, your roller coaster riders of the audio realm..


but it takes all kinds. I like felt cones and soft domes with 1st order crossovers, too.


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## edzyy

mikey7182 said:


> Where'd you get these door panels? (Sorry, I deleted the pics for quotes' sake).
> 
> Are the driver locations already cut out or is it essentially a blank canvas? Does their design assume an IB install, or could these pods accomodate some type of sealed/ported enclosure? If you could fit and enclosure, I think a single ported 10" midbass or a pair of ported 8" midbass toward the back of the panel/pod, then a single 8" midrange up front would be suhweeeeet.
> 
> IB is fine, but if you want some serious output, midbass enclosure is the way to go. If you could fit a pair of 8NDL51 in about 1cf net, tuned to 60hz, that would absolutely jam. Or a single Pyle PCW10S:
> 
> PylePro - PCW10S - 10'' High Power High Performance Midbass
> 
> Shallow as **** (~3.1"), 100db sens, 60hz Fs, 3 ohms, and cheap. There's an 8" version too but I think the Fs is quite a bit higher. Always wanted to play around with the Pyles, just cuz they look like fun and the specs got me curious. Anyway, just thinking out loud...


Mounting holes are already cut out. I got them locally. They're made by jehnert Produkte Doorboards Soundsystems | Bmw | 3er | Bmw 3er E36 Cabrio Coupe M3 76147 Doorboards Mit 3 Wege Soundsystem | Jehnert Sound Design Automotive

I was doing some testing & noticed the mounting holes were shaved to make access for 8 inch drivers. 

Stock holes are made for 4 6.5's and a 4 inch mid IB.

This is how the pod looks
http://www.jehnert.de/wp-content/uploads/imageStorage/Artikel/273/76147_leer.png

Ported is possible, but then I'd have to cut into the car & do some relocating. I've heard the craziness about ported midbass..and 2 8's would slam...but not really something I want to do with an m3, unless it's really worth it vs 3 drivers IB. 

Midbass drivers on my list are
B&C 8NDL51
Those pyle's you mentioned(thanks btw)
Faital 8FE200
& Beyma 8G40

Midrange will probably be BMS 8S215


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## thehatedguy

The BMS is a better choice for midbass than the Faital 8FE200.

What about the Beyma 8P300Fe?


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## whoever

The ciare make an excellent midbass also from us speakers


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## Eric Stevens

The Beyma 8G40 and the 8P300Fe are very similar. The advantage I saw with the 8G40 was that it was available in 4 ohm and had slightly higher efficiency 1.5% vs 1.39%. The G40 has higher inductance which might indicate some shorting rings or copper sleeve on the P300Fe that is used on the G40.


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## thehatedguy

Eric, can you shed some light on the sound differences we are hearing with the pro stuff compared to the consumer stuff?


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## Eric Stevens

thehatedguy said:


> Eric, can you shed some light on the sound differences we are hearing with the pro stuff compared to the consumer stuff?


The sound difference is the product of many things and how they interact with each other so there is no simple explanation like lower mass or more motor strength/BL etc. I think that a well engineered product is going to stand out and shine over a poor product either consumer or pro. Pro is higher efficiency reduced bandwidth and consumer tend to be wide bandwidth lower efficiency. 

Some observations IMHO:
1-My personal experiences have shown that having a higher efficiency system can never be equaled with higher power.

2-There is no specific pro audio sound. There are many high efficiency drivers that are very peaky in their response and as a result rather shouty or muddy and sometimes both together depending on the actual modes that cause the problem.

3-All low Q drivers will have a rising response characteristic where they have more output at higher frequencies.

4- I think the pro audio sound being a characteristic is a combination of #2 and #3. I think the shouty colored response of a peaky midrange driver is what most are describing.

5- Live sound means it sounds more like the original instrument, less like an reproduced version of that instrument. To do this effectively you need the dynamic range to be able to produce the sound of the original instrument. This takes power and efficiency together. To me live sound is when it sounds like you are sitting right in front of Jim Keltner doing a rim shot on his snare drum  

6- The current movement towards high efficiency seen in car audio is just about loud, with no regard for quality. Quantity over quality. 

Eric


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## thehatedguy

Given that a low Q midbass would have the uptilting response, our cabin gain would help flatten that out to a point though wouldn't it?


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## Eric Stevens

thehatedguy said:


> Given that a low Q midbass would have the uptilting response, our cabin gain would help flatten that out to a point though wouldn't it?


Yes cabin gain would boost up the low end response. 

The up tilt in the response is not very strong but it is there.

Eric


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## BuickGN

I think I've learned more about midbass drivers in this thread than all others combined. I have to cut mine in the 65-200hz range but they play all the way to 800hz. Is that common for a lower efficiency fairly wide band midbass in a vehicle?


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## Eric Stevens

BuickGN said:


> I think I've learned more about midbass drivers in this thread than all others combined. I have to cut mine in the 65-200hz range but they play all the way to 800hz. Is that common for a lower efficiency fairly wide band midbass in a vehicle?


I think it's typical of vehicles in general. I have always had to cut that area to varying degrees most often it centered at around 180hz and cut 9dB at the center of the peak and sometimes more. Sealed kick panels are the worst and in the doors the least. The transfer function varies by location combined with differences in the enclosure response causing these differences.

Eric


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## ErinH

agreed. midbass is the worst area in a car to deal with. you really need a good parametric. 100-300hz is the hardest area to get right.


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## thehatedguy

Transfer function varies because of physical shape of the are the speakers are in? Like the corners of the kicks could be getting boundary loading to reinforce that area and doors aren't?

I swear, I don't know if it is me, my lack of skills, or what not...but I can't get the kicks in any car that I've had have the same amount of midbass output as the AP doors in the old Accord or the rear deck of my IS300. Maybe enclosure related...


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## PsyCLown

This thread has inspired me to actually follow up with what I have been wanting to do for a very very long time and do it in my car, try run a HE setup although SQ orientated.

Midrangs upwards should not be too much of an issue, the problem though starts to arise with the midbass and lower frequencies - space is very limited in my very tiny city car.
Was thinking some dash pods consisting of a 4" midrange and 1" tweeter.

Not sure how I would get some decent bass out of small enclosures / in doors from smaller HE drivers (when I say smaller, I mean like 6.5"). Then the subwoofer, what to do...


With the right drivers, enclosure and crossovers there is no reason a HE system cannot sound as good (if not much better) than a more conventional Hi-Fi setup.
I have heard some really expensive, high end and highly regarded shop purchased SE speakers, heard some highly regarded SE DIY speakers and have heard a hybrid DIY setup (higher than normal midbass with HE midrange in a more "reasonable" enclosure) and the last one blew me away and was by far the best I have yet to hear. The soundstage is something I can only dream of for now.

The person then went on to build a full HE setup, used some Beyma AMT's with some Beyma 15" mids and according to him clearly confirmed that his previous system was lacking something and did not sound very good. Not to mention the fact that listening to a brand live through PA setups is just something else. It has a sense of "effortless-ness" to it, the kick it provides you with on a kick drum even listening to some electronic music at a club on some well built DIY bass horns compared to the store purchased PA subs (I think they're sealed or vented most of the time - Behringers, Wharfdales, JBL's) is something out. Something I have never experienced with a SE setup.

Spoken to quite a few who have been in the audio game for longer than I have been alive and they too have yet to experience a SE setup that has the same characteristics as a good HE setup can have.


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## thehatedguy

There is no such thing as small HE bass drivers.


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## PsyCLown

thehatedguy said:


> There is no such thing as small HE bass drivers.


My point exactly 

I will either need to become extremely creative or it's not happening.
Perhaps a combination, HE for the mids and SE for the bass. 

I think I should keep quiet now, not my thread. Sorry.


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## Horsemanwill

anyone know anything about these?

TS-M800PRO - 8" PRO Series Mid-Bass Driver | Pioneer Electronics USA


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## brett

i will add my suggestion, albeit not as educated as some other guys here, just prior experience.

i use and love my morel h8.1. to me, it does so much really well. it's fairly effecient, still takes nice amounts of power and is super easy to install. now, what i will add, is that i currently have these sealed (kinda) in my doors. I also have my vifa pl's in my kicks. what i've found is that morels in the doors get really low, but the vifas in the kicks are just so much easier to time align and get to sound good.

what i would suggest is taking a look at these and putting them in your kicks. this is what i plan to do this spring and im very anxious to hear results.

ive not done testing on these as i dont have the tools, but what do you other guys think? 

also, found this on ebay; im sure you could make an offer for one, or two pairs!... (not my auction!!!)

Morel MW 220 8 1 2 inch Woofer 3" Voice Coil Aluminum Wire and Former New | eBay


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## JoshHefnerX

Yes I'm playing thread necromancer here..... 

Was reading all this talk about dynamics and efficiency. I can say that Mikey's truck is very dynamic. But, so is the 'Magic Bus' and that's using Dyns all around. I don't remember how much power he's running, but I do remember snare drums being very comparable to a gunshot, so I know traditional hi-fi drivers can sound very snappy/dynamic. Admittedly, Jon's got a TON of work in that van, hence the 'magic' part.... lol

Josh


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## edzyy

Those dyn's also cost a small fortune....Which people seem to never take into account.


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## BuickGN

JoshHefnerX said:


> Yes I'm playing thread necromancer here.....
> 
> Was reading all this talk about dynamics and efficiency. I can say that Mikey's truck is very dynamic. But, so is the 'Magic Bus' and that's using Dyns all around. I don't remember how much power he's running, but I do remember snare drums being very comparable to a gunshot, so I know traditional hi-fi drivers can sound very snappy/dynamic. Admittedly, Jon's got a TON of work in that van, hence the 'magic' part.... lol
> 
> Josh


I don't want to speak for Jon but from what I remember he's running 2-3x the rms rating for each speaker. Maybe Jon can correct me if I'm wrong, but I know he has a lot of power. For my own system, when I pretty much doubled power on every driver it really came to life. Also, time alignment. I think I just got it "right" a couple months ago and it gets louder with less volume knob and sounds more dynamic.


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## cubdenno

BuickGN said:


> I don't want to speak for Jon but from what I remember he's running 2-3x the rms rating for each speaker. Maybe Jon can correct me if I'm wrong, but I know he has a lot of power. For my own system, when I pretty much doubled power on every driver it really came to life. Also, time alignment. I think I just got it "right" a couple months ago and it gets louder with less volume knob and sounds more dynamic.


I will also back up running more power seemed to make my 8's sound better. In each revision to the door, having 2-5 times the rated power on tap made the door speakers simply sound better. Dynamics to me really are what makes a recording come to life. Having 10db+ of capability over whatever volume you are listening at... 

And generally to do that, you need either HE speakers or lots of "HiFi" speakers and power on tap.


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## JoshHefnerX

I know that Jon's bus is not the most affordable in most circumstances, and was a ton of work to get right - hell the fact that he's basically got an anechoic chamber on wheels probably helps esp w/ the low noise floor. But my point was that he's using conventional hi-fi drivers and it does work. So it has to be possible - it's not breaking any law of physics.... 

Josh


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## thehatedguy

I've heard exactly two cars that used cones and tweeters that had the dynamics of horns...Steve Head's Civic with the Focal front stage and Dr. Doug's old BMW. Both of which had higher efficiency midbasses.

I've never heard a car using conventional consumer grade speakers no matter how much power make me flinch with snare drums.


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## JoshHefnerX

thehatedguy said:


> I've heard exactly two cars that used cones and tweeters that had the dynamics of horns...Steve Head's Civic with the Focal front stage and Dr. Doug's old BMW. Both of which had higher efficiency midbasses.
> 
> I've never heard a car using conventional consumer grade speakers no matter how much power make me flinch with snare drums.


Jon's magic bus will get you pretty close. I'm an avid shooter, and a couple of times I had a baby flinch. If you ever get the chance to listen to it make it happen as it's an experience. :beerchug:

Was Dr Doug's car the one w/ the strange metal rings around the rim of the speaker? 

Josh


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## JoshHefnerX

Was this his?


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## Patrick Bateman

thehatedguy said:


> Transfer function varies because of physical shape of the are the speakers are in? Like the corners of the kicks could be getting boundary loading to reinforce that area and doors aren't?
> 
> I swear, I don't know if it is me, my lack of skills, or what not...but I can't get the kicks in any car that I've had have the same amount of midbass output as the AP doors in the old Accord or the rear deck of my IS300. Maybe enclosure related...


I'm running dipoles right now.
I noticed that they sound more "dynamic" than monopoles. (sealed.)


















Here's a measured impulse response of a dipole and a monopole.
*See how the dipole 'fades to black' faster than the monopole?*

My hypothesis is that this is why my dipoles sound more dynamic. *You have to run them with a metric **** ton of power but they fade to black faster.* And when I say "metric **** ton" I am not kidding; I am using something like 10-100x as much power as I do with a monopole.

Basically the monopole is hella efficient, but if you have a dipole that can take the abuse, you can create a sound that's incredibly dynamic.


When USD and Richard Clark were doing the aperiodic boxes, I don't think they realized that they're basically a variation on dipole. Because these sound waves are hyooooooooooooooooge. 50hz is seven METERS long. So the back wave is going to find a way into the cabin, unless that trunk is hermetically sealed, and an aperiodic enclosure is going to behave like a dipole in a lot of ways.

In your Accord, I'm willing to bet the doors were leaking a fraction of the sound, and that your system was dipole-ish.


* data from John K : http://www.musicanddesign.com/Dipole_modesA.html


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## thehatedguy

Yeap that was it. Snare drums would make you blink. But those JBLs are 96 dB sensitive before they were padded down to mate to the tweeters. I think (would have to double check) he had a JBL 300.4 bridged to each one...and rand a dbx expander in addition to the Driverack 480.

Really made me want to explore and expander for my car...the old greats used them too.



JoshHefnerX said:


> Was this his?


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## thehatedguy

It could have been at one point in time...

But I did everything I could to stop that. The first major step in that was bonding aluminum baffles to the doors and then making filler panels for all of the holes on the door skin. Later on I built sealed enclosures in the doors- and worked on them until they did not have any leak down. 

If there was something that really bothers me, it is the sound of a leaking sealed box with a speaker under excursion...phh phh phh phh phh phh.

Then at the very end with the dash build, I had midbasses in the kicks vented outside of the car with horns and the midranges on top of the dash venting outside the car.

Inbetween all of that, I had built a baffle for the rear deck that held a pair of JBL 2204s...and a **** ton of mortar mix and lead shot to damp it.


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## thehatedguy

I would rather sit in Mickey's S-10 with the knob dropped...that's more my style.



JoshHefnerX said:


> Jon's magic bus will get you pretty close. I'm an avid shooter, and a couple of times I had a baby flinch. If you ever get the chance to listen to it make it happen as it's an experience. :beerchug:
> 
> Was Dr Doug's car the one w/ the strange metal rings around the rim of the speaker?
> 
> Josh


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## JoshHefnerX

thehatedguy said:


> I would rather sit in Mickey's S-10 with the knob dropped...that's more my style.


Rofl, his S10 is completely ridiculous (in a good way).

Hell, his S10 and the magic bus is what gave me the bug again to start building my car.

Josh


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## Patrick Bateman

thehatedguy said:


> It could have been at one point in time...
> 
> But I did everything I could to stop that. The first major step in that was bonding aluminum baffles to the doors and then making filler panels for all of the holes on the door skin. Later on I built sealed enclosures in the doors- and worked on them until they did not have any leak down.
> 
> If there was something that really bothers me, it is the sound of a leaking sealed box with a speaker under excursion...phh phh phh phh phh phh.
> 
> Then at the very end with the dash build, I had midbasses in the kicks vented outside of the car with horns and the midranges on top of the dash venting outside the car.
> 
> Inbetween all of that, I had built a baffle for the rear deck that held a pair of JBL 2204s...and a **** ton of mortar mix and lead shot to damp it.


I know you like the sound of coaxes.
I heard the new Emerald Pyhsics speakers at T.H.E. Show and the sound was astounding.
It's interesting because they're stupid cheap, and appear very simple. It's simply a pair of 12" woofers in a dipole, and one of them is a coax.

I think the "trick" is that a couple of twelves can move a very large volume of air, and they're high efficiency, so you combine those two things and you counteract the two negatives of a dipole. (Low efficiency, low power handling.)


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## thehatedguy

Those are Eminence Alpha 15s on the bottom (or were before they were bandpass) and a Eminence Beta 12CX with Seleinum D220Ti on the top side.

But I must confess...I haven't actually got to play any of my Tannoys yet (car needs a new engine and that put a serious dampener on my plans)...and really haven't played with that many coaxes. Just was an easy way to get big midbasses in the front of my car.


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## Patrick Bateman

Just realized that what I heard was from the *designer* of Emerald Physics, but that he has a new company.

IMHO, these look better than the EP speakers, and they're cheaper

http://www.spatialaudio.us/hologram

He's using a beryllium compression driver for some of his designs, which makes me wonder if these new speakers are Radian?


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## thehatedguy

18Sound has a Be compression driver.

But if they are coaxes, then they are Radians. Radian has a 12 that has a 2" exit compression driver- the 5312, and they come in neo or ceramic motors and aluminum or Be diaphrams. $850 ea for ceramic Be domes and $1150 each for neo with Be domes.

Radian Speaker Parts - Radian Audio. Radian high frequency drivers. Radian premium diaphragms for radian, JBL, TAD, Altec and more.

I was 2 hours late on an auction for some Radian 5208cs.

There was a seller on eBay a few weeks back that had over a dozen Radian 12" coaxes with crossovers for about $100 each. Was going to buy some just to have before I had to replace the motor in the car. The Radian passive XOs are pretty darned good from what I hear.


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## wheelieking71

thehatedguy said:


> I would rather sit in Mickey's S-10 with the knob dropped...that's more my style.


Funny, researching 8"s to run with my ES horns I find this post.
I've been there. It was fun! Shout out to Mikey for an awesome demo!
You haven't enjoyed Tool until you jammed in Mikey's S10.


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## veleno

Since this thread was created a while ago, are there any updates on a current 8" midbass driver to use with the ES horns? I have the 18sound 6ND430 (6.5" I believe) on the shelf to go with it but I really want to use an 8" if there's one that pairs nicely with the ES mini horns.


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## Horsemanwill

Eric has the MB8. That's what i'm running. Pairs up excellently. Comes in 2 or 4 ohms.
You can order here.
https://www.facebook.com/stevensaudio/


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## veleno

Thanks, going to check it out.


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## Oscar

Good thread! Hadn't seen this one. Just FYI if anyone cares, Ciare was bought out by 18 Sound, and then 18 Sound was bought out by B&C. To me that is a good thing as Ciare is already expanding their line-up.  

Check out these badboys I picked up cheap on Ebay, Ciare NDH10-3's. Dude has like 30 left.


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## robertallinson

check out the melodic acoustic intimid8rs.. theres actually a few for sale on the forums right now


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