# 8" sub ported vs shallow 10" ported



## Cruzer

If u take say a sundown sa-8 and put it in a .6 cubic foot box tuned to 32hz and say a polk MM1040 10" sub and put it in a 1 cubic foot box tuned to 32hz

the polk is only rated for 350, but i feed my ~450 daily np, so use whatever wattage u want, 400, 450, to each sub, which will be louder?

when i use winisd it says the shallow 10 will be, thats using 450 watts, and the box sizes above.

imo, cone area wins with same power, and proper box sizes.

but im not sure, which is why im asking

i metered 135.5 with 2 polk MM 10s in 2.3 cubes @32hz ~900 watts
anyone have 2 8s with similar power get metered?


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## RyanM923

It is hard for a smaller sub to overcome a cone area disadvantage like that. Most of the time if it's going to be louder, it's due to a higher tuning and it won't be louder over the entire spectrum. I'd plot each one out in a program to get the desired response curve you want, and see which one will get louder with the power you have.

I think with the power you have the Polk will be the better choice and can probably get lower as well. If you want to run more power the SA8 will probably start to surpass the Polk in output.


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## Cruzer

just modeled a jl 8w7 in the recommended 1 cubic [email protected] vs polk mm 1 cubic [email protected] hz, the 8w7 has almost a full 2 dbs from like 40hz-60/70hz, thats using 500 rms

but thats just winisd, who knows if thats true or not


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## Ray21

What's keeping you from running a pair of 8s? Would certainly be louder than a single 10...


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## subwoofery

I find the Kicker 8L7 to be one efficient subwoofer. Comparing with the MM, the Kicker has the exact same freq response (WinISD) in 1cuft tuned to 32Hz  

Kelvin


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## Cruzer

Ray21 said:


> What's keeping you from running a pair of 8s? Would certainly be louder than a single 10...


nothing, just someone on different forum said an 8 ported in optimal box with same power vs a shallow 10 would out perform it in its optimal box with same power.

like shallow subs are inferior to the point where their cone area is irrelevant and they arent worth buying.

i got my polk subs because they were shallow, which is the reason they are made in the first place. even if the 8s out perform, they are deeper.

then i got to wondering if the 8 would or would not out perform it. i still dont think it would.


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## stills

Have you modeled the sundown in a larger box?


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## Cruzer

jacob says .6 if ur going over the 400 rms rating. but yes i did a 1 cubic foot box, it barely gains anything over .6, and is still not comparable, or outperforming the shallow polk mm


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## RyanM923

subwoofery said:


> I find the Kicker 8L7 to be one efficient subwoofer. Comparing with the MM, the Kicker has the exact same freq response (WinISD) in 1cuft tuned to 32Hz
> 
> Kelvin


8" L7's are pretty good little 8's.


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## stills

What's the xmax on the polks?


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## FAUEE

RyanM923 said:


> 8" L7's are pretty good little 8's.


Very true. I went from a 10" Infinity to an 8" L7 in a smaller sealed box and definitely gained more bass, lower bass, if not quite as nice sounding bass. The square cone really helps out on the 8s IMO.


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## trojan fan

ported = spl..... x 2 = more spl....x3 = even more spl...and that is now it works, no way getting around it.... what about sound quality... if one note subs work for you have at it


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## Oliver

YouTube - Polk Audio MM 10s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37AcldTOL3k

YouTube - Sundown SA-8 Prototype Free Air


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## Cruzer

stills said:


> What's the xmax on the polks?


25mm

ive heard some 8" L5s and they sounded like any other sub as far as sq, but the guys over on CA forum say the sq is bad. is it? i only listened for about a minute and its been over a year i cant really remember.


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## carlton jones

a dd8 will whip both of them lol


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## corcraft

how about an id8?


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## Cruzer

carlton jones said:


> a dd8 will whip both of them lol


Whats the specs on them then?


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## Cruzer

corcraft said:


> how about an id8?


id8 is rated for 150 watts rms, but i modeled it with 150, and 300, and it just doesnt do well below 45hz. 45hz and up he outdoes the polk by a db, but 45hz below its 2-3 db behind


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## trojan fan

Screw all the numbers, let your ears be the judge, your sub will only be as good as the weakest link


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## stills

Your xmax is about the same, I assume the power is the same, so the diff. Is cone area. The polk should win.


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## corcraft

Cruzer said:


> id8 is rated for 150 watts rms, but i modeled it with 150, and 300, and it just doesnt do well below 45hz. 45hz and up he outdoes the polk by a db, but 45hz below its 2-3 db behind


Are you sure that u tried a id8 v3 and not a v2 or idq? the v3 should play very low and well in .35 sealed and around .75 ported.


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## Cruzer

I used the ID8v3 specs from IDs website. I didn't mean it didn't play those frequencies or anything I just meant compared to the Polk it was 2-3 db less from 45hz down


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## subwoofery

Cruzer said:


> Whats the specs on them then?


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1212142-post15.html 

Enjoy, 
Kelvin


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## subwoofery

stills said:


> Your xmax is about the same, I assume the power is the same, so the diff. Is cone area. The polk should win.


Seems like Polk doesn't tell the truth in their specs: 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1174359-post7.html 

Still nice but not quite 25mm one way. Just look at the SR specs, their one way excursion # is 16.25mm one way  

Kelvin


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## Chaos

FWIW, at one time I had an ID8 and a Kicker S8L7 for direct comparison on 250 watts in sealed boxes. The Image Dynamics sub played just as loud as the Kicker, and sounded much, much better doing it.


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## Oliver

*One Sundown SA-8 *: *150.2 dB *(Day 2) ~ YouTube - One Sundown SA-8 : 150.2 dB (Day 2)



Cruzer said:


> i metered 135.5 with 2 polk MM 10s in 2.3 cubes @32hz ~900 watts
> anyone have 2 8s with similar power get metered?


If U have 2 tens and he has only one 8  , U figure it out.


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## Cruzer

Oliver said:


> *One Sundown SA-8 *: *150.2 dB *(Day 2) ~ YouTube - One Sundown SA-8 : 150.2 dB (Day 2)
> 
> 
> 
> If U have 2 tens and he has only one 8  , U figure it out.


wow u truly are an idiot...

its impossible to hit 150.2 db with 1 8" sub off 400 watts, he is CLEARLY using more than what i used, and more than the sub is rated.


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## Oliver

Cruzer said:


> wow u truly are an idiot...
> 
> its impossible to hit 150.2 db with 1 8" sub off 400 watts, he is CLEARLY using more than what i used, and more than the sub is rated.


So if you can do 135 with 2 tens and X amount of watts ... this is what you're after?

Why not pick the name of the sub ?
A 50 watt amp?
Pick the size of the enclosure?
Pick the type of the enclosure?
Pick the color of the enclosure?

Then shoot for the stars :laugh:



> If u take say a sundown sa-8 and put it in a .6 cubic foot box tuned to 32hz and say a polk MM1040 10" sub and put it in a 1 cubic foot box tuned to 32hz
> 
> the polk is only rated for 350, but i feed my ~450 daily np, so use whatever wattage u want, 400, 450, to each sub, *which will be louder?*


*
which will be louder?* - the three 15"s mounted infinite baffle in the back of an extended van !


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## Cruzer

Oliver said:


> So if you can do 135 with 2 tens and X amount of watts ... this is what you're after?
> 
> Why not pick the name of the sub ?
> A 50 watt amp?
> Pick the size of the enclosure?
> Pick the type of the enclosure?
> Pick the color of the enclosure?
> 
> Then shoot for the stars :laugh:
> 
> 
> *
> which will be louder?* - the three 15"s mounted infinite baffle in the back of an extended van !


this isnt about my setup. a guy wanted shallow sub recommendations and a guy told him just do an 8 instead, it would be louder

so this thread was born. i wanted to know if it was true or not.

only reason #s were brought up is because if someone had 2 8s on daily power and got them metered, then we could compare.


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## Cruzer

so whos gonna test it? lol


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## Cruzer

subwoofery said:


> Seems like Polk doesn't tell the truth in their specs:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1174359-post7.html
> 
> Still nice but not quite 25mm one way. Just look at the SR specs, their one way excursion # is 16.25mm one way
> 
> Kelvin


Any idea why when i copy the polk driver, but change the xmax to 14 instead of 25, then model it vs the polk with 25 xmax, there is no spl difference?

that makes no sense, perhaps xmax doesnt matter much with winisd which is why it cant be trusted to judge spl of drivers?


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## Oliver

Cruzer said:


> 2 8s on daily power and got them metered, then we could compare.


Oh Yeah... *Daily Power*

If you're under 52 years old you'll be using more than this old fart 

For daily , I run an SAZ 1500D on a 12 inch IDMAX , the gain is all the way to the right.

I like the drum solo by Neil Pert off of 30th anniversary CD ~ Neil Peart Drum Solo - Rush 30th Anniversary - HD 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHkucr1jJpQ&feature=related

I wouldn't use an 8" sub for anything other than rounding out the spectrum of frequencies. [ unless it was the 8W7 ].

All that aside: If he wants to FEEL the music - piston size and length of stroke is what is important.


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## Cruzer

some of us dont have a trunk to fit any sub we want


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## subwoofery

Cruzer said:


> Any idea why when i copy the polk driver, but change the xmax to 14 instead of 25, then model it vs the polk with 25 xmax, there is no spl difference?
> 
> that makes no sense, perhaps xmax doesnt matter much with winisd which is why it cant be trusted to judge spl of drivers?


You need to look at the Excursion figures, with less Xmax you won't be able to apply more power since you'll run out of Xmax. 
Heck if it's a ported enclosure, you might need to use a smaller box. 

WinISD just shows the SPL and what's going on, when you look at MAX SPL is were you'll see a difference. 

Kelvin


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## Oliver

Cruzer said:


> i metered 135.5 with 2 polk MM 10s in* 2.3 cubes* @32hz ~900 watts
> anyone have 2 8s with similar power get metered?





Cruzer said:


> some of us dont have a trunk to fit any sub we want


I'm not using an enclosure this big 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWBU1m8iKwo&feature=related

*The two eights would take it ! ^^^*


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## Cruzer

subwoofery said:


> You need to look at the Excursion figures, with less Xmax you won't be able to apply more power since you'll run out of Xmax.
> Heck if it's a ported enclosure, you might need to use a smaller box.
> 
> WinISD just shows the SPL and what's going on, when you look at MAX SPL is were you'll see a difference.
> 
> Kelvin


its still showing no difference when i look at max spl, cone excursion, nothing. i double checked the parameters, one says 25, one says 14.
like i said seems like a winisd bug, problem, or misfigure


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## subwoofery

Cruzer said:


> its still showing no difference when i look at max spl, cone excursion, nothing. i double checked the parameters, one says 25, one says 14.
> like i said seems like a winisd bug, problem, or misfigure


Did you apply a highpass (30Hz like a subsonic) in WinISD? 

Kelvin


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## Cruzer

u need to apply a high pass filter to see max spl? ill try it


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## tinmanchris217

If we're talking A vs B... 

The SA-8 will handle ALOT more than 400wRMS, has plenty of motor force, long throw, and excellent cooling. Hands down the better choice between the two.

I know a few guys who compete in SPL, using the SA series. They can handle abuse and still manage good detail and depth. One of the most versatile lines in the industry, IMHO.


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## Cruzer

tinmanchris217 said:


> If we're talking A vs B...
> 
> The SA-8 will handle ALOT more than 400wRMS, has plenty of motor force, long throw, and excellent cooling. Hands down the better choice between the two.
> 
> I know a few guys who compete in SPL, using the SA series. They can handle abuse and still manage good detail and depth. One of the most versatile lines in the industry, IMHO.


Well obviously if u send it twice as much power as the 10, its going to be louder...

is this question really that complicated for people?

the basic question here is, guy doesnt believe a shallow sub, with a small motor, etc. will perform as well as the next size down regular sub with a nice big, healthy motor.

thats the general thing. ive seen this topic discussed several times, most people say skip the thin subs, get the smaller regular sub.


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## tinmanchris217

Using the advice of someone more knowledgable than I...
LINK to a comparison

Traditional subs will allow more excursion and better low frequency response. Generally this translates to better performance.

In this case, we're downsizing the traditional woofer diameter, applying no more power, and box size seems more important than low frequency response. The Polk MM 10 would be the better choice in this case. Good woofer for solid bass in limited space.

If, however, the OP ever plans to add power, wants a more full low-end, or is planning to abuse the sub... the SA-8 is a better choice.

Side note: Porting a sub that's designed for small sealed boxes... usually gives undesirable results. I've done it before and to get a usable amount of extra output from the back wave... it usually ends in poor cone control (read: unloading problems) at low frequencies and full power. This happens because the woofer was designed to have alot of air stiffness to work with it's high internal damping. When the air stiffness drops off and the damping doesn't, the system gets both overdamped and floppy... obviously not good for SQ or stability.


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## Cruzer

thats a better post, and explanation and i agree


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## Eastman474

IMO i say the sa-8 depending on the power you have on tap..
i ran 4 of them in my sierra under the seat and they sounded incredible in both sq and output... 








however if you choose them i recommend giving them some power because they like it... I gave mine around 500wrms each but they will easily take much more.. If you only wanna run the 400w the polk may have the sa-8 beat but im not sure being that ive never heard them.. but if you could get the power for 2 sa-8s and ran them in .6 each and tuned 32-36hz that would be killer.. just my 2 cents


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## viniciusaleixo

I like several subwoofers 8" vented box, the bass is fast, but it has no weight in comparison to larger subwoofers, but I like!

Vlw!


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## Patrick Bateman

Cruzer said:


> If u take say a sundown sa-8 and put it in a .6 cubic foot box tuned to 32hz and say a polk MM1040 10" sub and put it in a 1 cubic foot box tuned to 32hz
> 
> the polk is only rated for 350, but i feed my ~450 daily np, so use whatever wattage u want, 400, 450, to each sub, which will be louder?
> 
> when i use winisd it says the shallow 10 will be, thats using 450 watts, and the box sizes above.
> 
> imo, cone area wins with same power, and proper box sizes.
> 
> but im not sure, which is why im asking
> 
> i metered 135.5 with 2 polk MM 10s in 2.3 cubes @32hz ~900 watts
> anyone have 2 8s with similar power get metered?


Efficiency is fairly irrelevant at low frequencies. IMHO, the SA-8 gets insanely loud because it has a motor that won't go up in smoke when you attach a big amplifier to it. There are a lot of factors which limit how loud your car can get, but the big ones are displacement, power handling, and your amplifier. Big amps are cheap and ubiquitous so that leaves displacement and power handling.

Don't get hung up on the diameter of the piston. An 8" woofer with 16mm of xmax will displace more air than a 10" woofer with 8mm of xmax, and the eight will usually use a smaller box.

So an array of small woofers is often the best solution IMHO.


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## Patrick Bateman

Cruzer said:


> wow u truly are an idiot...
> 
> its impossible to hit 150.2 db with 1 8" sub off 400 watts, he is CLEARLY using more than what i used, and more than the sub is rated.


Standing waves are an amazing thing, they're powerful enough to tear concrete and steel. IMHO, that's how the car got so loud. Read more here: 

Audio Psychosis • View topic - How to Build a Bass Weapon


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## Audiophyle

I had an Audiopulse Epic 8" hit 137db off only 300w rms in a small ported box, tuned for 27hz & in the trunk of a del Sol. Mic was on the dash & playing music not burping. Build was NOT for SPL, box was as small as possible, and this sub made me grin every single day I played it.

The only shallow sub I'd consider is the new Alpine R's, because they are completely different from every other shallow sub out there and actually look to have some real potential.


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## XtremeRevolution

Audiophyle said:


> I had an Audiopulse Epic 8" hit 137db off only 300w rms in a small ported box, tuned for 27hz & in the trunk of a del Sol. Mic was on the dash & playing music not burping. Build was NOT for SPL, box was as small as possible, and this sub made me grin every single day I played it.
> 
> The only shallow sub I'd consider is the new Alpine R's, because they are completely different from every other shallow sub out there and actually look to have some real potential.


That's probably because you had it in a del sol. Boundary loading and pressurization gain in such a small vehicle will have a very big impact on your output.


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## Audiophyle

Even though the trunk of a del Sol is completely isolated from the cabin?
Its nothing like a CRX, there is a sealed steel chamber between the trunk & cabin where the rear window rolls into. Wish I would have tried it with the mic in the trunk too.

I guess I'll find out when I put this same sub into an Element.


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