# SBN Results for Epsilon Teams



## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

Hi all,

I have been getting a lot of emails regarding results of the weekend. The short of it is this...

22 awards at Daytona
5 awards (4 non team members) at db Drag Ohio

In summation, we had a total of 19 vehicle, not including non-member vehicles. We won 22 awards at SBN including the coveted Bruce Terrell award for most supportive manufacturer (3rd consecutive year and 3 of 5 since this award's beginning), and 5 in Ohio for a total of 27!!! Our Soundstream equipped Accord defended its title in Sound Quality and remains a champion. BTW, it was only .8% short of winning Triple Crown as we were told in the trophy ceremony. But later finding show that Jeff did in fact win the award. But IASCA cannot pull back the award due to a discrepancy in the rule book. Jeff built his Accord by himself, not with the assistance of a shop. The guy who won was misclassified, not his fault. Regardless, this is a phenomenal feat. 

One of the funnest things to brag about was accomplishing what was thought to be impossible! Our brand new PPI equipped Sound Quality car took home 6 trophies in his pro classes, but here is the insane part... It is a f#@&ing convertible!!! This has never been done! Oh, and did I mention that it was completed a day before the show so Chad had almost no time to tune it? Just goes to show you what can be done when you have Chad as the competitor, Gary Biggs as the fabrication controller, and some badass new Precision Power products. Sorry, but I do not feel bad for bragging about this. I am so proud!

I have been dedicated to building our team for 3.5 years and I'll continue to build it with the best people I can find! We are 82 vehicles strong at the moment. I believe that makes us easily the biggest car audio team in in the industry! I KNOW it does! 

In this dark economy, with car audio dying off and no more car audio magazines in print, the small may perish, but we will continue to be the best we can. I want something exciting to talk about? I want to somehow market our products with no current printed means of advertising. My hand-picked family (our team of sponsorees) is my answer! They are all over the country kicking ass. I get calls and emails from judges and even the owners of the sanctions that our team members are the most helpful and friendly people in the competition arenas! This makes me so proud. And this is also the same attitudes that draw in new people. In case you were not at SBN, you should have seen all of us. We all hung out at the Irish Pub and then went to the parking garage roof top when the pub closed. We helped each other, and even our opponents. We drank some shine together. But most of all, we just had a great time laughing. Speaking of laughing, and you'll see the you tube video soon, one of our best team members is also one of our craziest. Tim is a die hard Soundstream fanatic from the Sacramento, CA area. This madman drove over 3000 miles to be at the show. Little did we all know that he got permission to enter the bikini contest. But when this psycho came out in a neon green Borat Bikini thing, the crowd went absolutely insane. He is a very brave guy! lol 

All in all, we rocked the house. The SPL guys, the Show guys, the SQ guys, the supporting members, and our staff in the distributor rooms. As Paul Papadeus of IASCA said, "You guys get it!" 

Now imagine if the economy was better. We could easily have twice the amount of cars next year! 

I get a bazillion sponsor requests every week, so please, do not contact me looking for a freebie. There are requirements and even then, every member on the team bought their equipment, some turning down freebies in order to be on the team. The majority are Soundstream, PPI is growing. and I even have a couple Power Acoustik guys and a couple SPL USA guys, one of which took a 2nd in SPL at the show. Although we do not make any money on the team, we do not lose any either since everybody pays for their equipment. In that regard, I can build the team as big as I want, and I am the guy who personally supports all of the members, along side the inter team support which is amazingly strong...

Anyway, I know we are not supposed to brag on here, but I am not bragging about me. I am nothing. But I am bragging about my team because they deserve it...


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

I'm happy all the hard work and efforts have paid off! I have been one of the few singing the praises of the work over there for a while now! Glad its finally been "proven"! Wish I had the time and means to be part of the team  
Was the new PPI DD screen part of any setups????? I am so F'ing intrigued by that deck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Congrats Grizz! I hope several beers are poured in celebration


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

congrats grizz.

now if you could just make an 8" speaker that has a high efficency (90+db 1w\1m) that plays from 60hz to 1500hz and id be down too lol.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

req said:


> congrats grizz.
> 
> now if you could just make an 8" speaker that has a high efficency (90+db 1w\1m) that plays from 60hz to 1500hz and id be down too lol.




X2!!! the art sq with high range capability would be awesome!!!!!! 
How about horns too


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

Can we get a list of names, class they where in and who won what from Epsilon?


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## TeamTCA (Nov 20, 2008)

First of all, anyone who wanted could have entered the Triple Crown. It was no more than a discount on entering SQC, IQC, and rta/spl but you had to enter all three to be eligible.
I was even entered and I am an Expert. Although my car was not finished at the show I had already made commitments and came anyway. Steve Hunter competed in Amateur and won the award by the rules set forth by Moe and IASCA.

Congrats to Team Epsilon and Soundstream and PPI competitors. You had a strong showing at SBN this year. Do NOT however incinuate that any of my cars did not win fairly or was misclassed because your guy didn't win. Facts are facts. Your team did awesome, so did mine (3 cars this year) but the Triple Crown cup went to the appropriate
Winner, Steve Hunter (Amateur div---SBN 25), '08 Chevy Avalanche.


Todd Crowder
TeamTCA
TC Audio
27 World Championships
Established 1989


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

rexroadj said:


> I'm happy all the hard work and efforts have paid off! I have been one of the few singing the praises of the work over there for a while now! Glad its finally been "proven"! Wish I had the time and means to be part of the team
> Was the new PPI DD screen part of any setups????? I am so F'ing intrigued by that deck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Congrats Grizz! I hope several beers are poured in celebration


Nope buddy, Chad is a die hard Clarion fan and somehow found a brand new 9255. But is dying to find a remote for it. Hell, I do not even have my own prototype radio yet. But they are due to be in stock in about 4-5 weeks. Man, I really hope they are not a Junetember product... We started with all the beers, champagne, shot and moonshine way before the weekend was over.


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

req said:


> congrats grizz.
> 
> now if you could just make an 8" speaker that has a high efficency (90+db 1w\1m) that plays from 60hz to 1500hz and id be down too lol.


While I can appreciate what you are looking for, most people want 95-97dB efficient and are wiling to have the 90Hz-120Hz as the roll-off point. The only people that would want what you are asking for is midbass fanatics and some audiophiles. I would dig them. But then again, we both know that all of the enthusiasts ask but never buy. Hell, that is why we are canceling the group buy. Everybody wanted it, but nobody wanted to buy.


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

rexroadj said:


> X2!!! the art sq with high range capability would be awesome!!!!!!
> How about horns too


Buddy, you are one of the guys I like on here most, but piss on horns! They simply cannot do what good components can do. I can argue with myself on this as far as sound projection, but never as far as staging and imaging. Just cannot beat cones and domes. Plus, it would just be another expensive project that nobody would buy. I would never even consider it and if the owner himself asked me to do it, I would tell him to find somebody else. You know frustrated I am with all of the cheap asses that beg for this and that and then never buy or would rather buy from an online whore. What's the saying? Can't fix stupid...


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

Genxx said:


> Can we get a list of names, class they where in and who won what from Epsilon?


How can I attach an Excel spreadsheet? Sorry man, I can make them, but I am not a forum master. I will gladly attach it...


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

TeamTCA said:


> First of all, anyone who wanted could have entered the Triple Crown. It was no more than a discount on entering SQC, IQC, and rta/spl but you had to enter all three to be eligible.
> I was even entered and I am an Expert. Although my car was not finished at the show I had already made commitments and came anyway. Steve Hunter competed in Amateur and won the award by the rules set forth by Moe and IASCA.
> 
> Congrats to Team Epsilon and Soundstream and PPI competitors. You had a strong showing at SBN this year. Do NOT however incinuate that any of my cars did not win fairly or was misclassed because your guy didn't win. Facts are facts. Your team did awesome, so did mine (3 cars this year) but the Triple Crown cup went to the appropriate
> ...


WHOA Todd! I have no such immature feelings towards you guys. Not at all man! You guys won fair and square. I have a tons of respect for what you guys accomplished. Jeff received an email from Moe which apologized for the big oversight in the rule book. Had Steve won unfairly, it would be IASCA's job to rectify the situation. I am in NOW WAY contesting any of this. What I do think needs to happen is that they need two triple crowns, one for professionally shop built vehicles and one for DIYers.

I just do not want you to think that I disagree with the results. I do not whatsoever. I have NEVER been a sore loser or a whiner! However, I can appreciate Jeff's concerns and Moe's as well, as I am sure you would. But the only way to rectify the scenario is two awards. If you have a better idea, please tell me and you and I can approach IASCA together...


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

So what is the issue with this years triple crown? Todds guy won it but Grizz says there was a miscalculation on a score sheet and a misclassification by Todds team guy.

OK-Guys let's hear the details on what is being claimed.

Grizz-No need for a spread sheet just type into the thread. It should not take you more than 15-20min to complete.


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

Genxx said:


> So what is the issue with this years triple crown? Todds guy won it but Grizz says there was a miscalculation on a score sheet and a misclassification by Todds team guy.
> 
> OK-Guys let's hear the details on what is being claimed.
> 
> Grizz-No need for a spread sheet just type into the thread. It should not take you more than 15-20min to complete.


No no no, not a miscalculation on the score sheet. Steve won fair and square! The discrepancy is in the rule book on whether you can enter a professionally built vehicle against a DIY built vehicle. My opinion is that there should be a crown for both. But as the rules stand now, Jeff took 2nd 100% fairly. One of the thing I tell my members is that it is not about trophies. I could care less, really. It is about having fun and sportsmanship. Obviously TC, JBL, Hybrid and Zapco are the elite SQ teams. That is what they are know for and their presence is amazing. We only have 3 SQ competitors, and prior to this year, we only had one guy. We just want to have fun with all these guys. We all get along in the lanes... There is no war or smack talking by anybody on any of these teams that I know of. 

Ok, I did not want to have to type all of this, but since I am a forum idiot and do not know how to attach a spreadsheet, here it is...

My SQ guys...

Chad Romano - Pro SQ 
Precision Power
Solstice *Convertible*
MECA Best of Show
MECA Modified Install 1st
MECA Modified SQ 3rd
IASCA SBN IQC Pro/Am Install 1st
IASCA SBN Pro/Am Sound Quality 3rd
IASCA INAC SQC 1-Seat 2nd
Perfect 30 RTA
Perfect Stage

Jeff Moolevliet - Ama SQ
Soundstream
Accord
IASCA SBN IQC Install 1st
IASCA SBN SQC Sound Ama 5th
IASCA SBN SQI N. American Champion
INAC Ama SQI Champion
Perfect 30 RTA at 3dB and 3dB Steps

Ed Rice - Ama SQ
Precision Power
Titan
IASCA SBN IQC Install 3rd

My SPL guys...

Goti Reeves
Soundstream
Hearse
MECA M5 4th

James Burkett
Soundstream
S-10 Blazer
Super Street 1-2 1st

Derek McGregor
Soundstream
Seabring
Bass Boxing Middle Weight 2nd

Neill Barber
Soundstream
S-10 Blazer
Bace Race 150.0-159.9 2nd

Chris Neely
SPL Gorilla
Astro Van
MECA M4 2nd

Manny Barrera
Soundstream
Mazda 3
MECA Street 1-2 4th
MECA Phat Car

My FMF Show / Tuner Jam guys/gals...

Marshall Woolford / Mars Audio
Soundstream
IS-300
Street Asian Car 1st
Highlander
Street Asian SUV 1st 

Jodie Smith
Soundstream
GMC Top Kick "Transformers Truck"
Street Truck 2nd

Harvey DeLuca
Soundstream
XB
Ultimate Asian Crossover 1st

Tom Tucker
Soundstream and SPL Gorilla
H2
Street Domestic SUV 1st

TJ Dickensen
Soundstream
Suburban
Street Domestic SUV 4th

Ohio simultaneous dB Drag Finals...

Rob Heeter
Soundstream
HHR
Super Street No Wall 3rd

There were several other awards but these are the ones from Team Members.

Finally, Soundstream was awarded the Bruce Terrell award which I will brag about boastfully because it is a major achievement. In short is it awarded by Paul Papadeus to the brand that best supports the industry and SBN. I do not mind bragging about this because it is won not only by our company's dedication, but with the help of my team which I love so much. There have ben five of these awards given out. One to RF, one to Audiobahn and the last 3 to us. I also want to note that it was awesome to see alot more manufacturers in the house. I think Paul said there were about 8 returning companies that had been gone for a few years. This was good to see and I think it inspired hope for all attendees for a slow growing future in 12V...

Out of curiosity, would anybody by any chance also be attending the Germany show in May. Just curious to see if I can find some people to hang with...


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Grizz Archer said:


> Buddy, you are one of the guys I like on here most, but piss on horns! They simply cannot do what good components can do. I can argue with myself on this as far as sound projection, but never as far as staging and imaging. Just cannot beat cones and domes. Plus, it would just be another expensive project that nobody would buy. I would never even consider it and if the owner himself asked me to do it, I would tell him to find somebody else. You know frustrated I am with all of the cheap asses that beg for this and that and then never buy or would rather buy from an online whore. What's the saying? Can't fix stupid...




OUCH!!!!!!!!!!! 
I was just shooting off the hip while talking about the midbass drivers....
I dont run horns personally (although I did have some great results a long time ago with them) I just figured since no one else is making them (decline of ID) that it might be a nice niche but I didnt realize it was an expensive venture (although what isnt?). 
I really want to try some of the pro audio stuff as I think I would enjoy the charactaristics....I have always been a prisoner of low freq. midbass drivers that I could pound the **** out of..... (sounds pretty stupid when you say it out loud in that mannor I should try a different approach at some point....That was part of MY failure with the PPI 3way setup....I didnt take the time and effort to do a proper mid install. I really should try and put together another PPI setup......I failed them...not the other way around. I treated them like drivers that I was more used to rather then what they were....... Lucky SOB going to Germany!!!!!!!!!!! Someday I would like to go there (50% german + 25%Native A, and a hodgepodge of other ****)
Funny you mention moonshine One of my favorite hobbies.... I run a 7gallon still....You ever make it up to NH you will be WELL taken care of


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

rexroadj said:


> OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!
> I was just shooting off the hip while talking about the midbass drivers....
> I dont run horns personally (although I did have some great results a long time ago with them) I just figured since no one else is making them (decline of ID) that it might be a nice niche but I didnt realize it was an expensive venture (although what isnt?).
> I really want to try some of the pro audio stuff as I think I would enjoy the charactaristics....I have always been a prisoner of low freq. midbass drivers that I could pound the **** out of..... (sounds pretty stupid when you say it out loud in that mannor I should try a different approach at some point....That was part of MY failure with the PPI 3way setup....I didnt take the time and effort to do a proper mid install. I really should try and put together another PPI setup......I failed them...not the other way around. I treated them like drivers that I was more used to rather then what they were....... Lucky SOB going to Germany!!!!!!!!!!! Someday I would like to go there (50% german + 25%Native A, and a hodgepodge of other ****)
> Funny you mention moonshine One of my favorite hobbies.... I run a 7gallon still....You ever make it up to NH you will be WELL taken care of


Yeah, its a bummer. I wish I could rely on people giving us great ideas on what would be unique and cool, and then we could know that it would sell. But that fact is that the high end enthusiasts just do not but even 1% of the products that we sell and surely not enough of the expensive products they demand, so they all end up closing out...

I go to Germany every year for work, and then stay extra time with my wife's family that all still live there. A guy down in FL makes me Apple Pie moonshine that is phenomenal...


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## Black Widow Accord (Mar 3, 2011)

TeamTCA said:


> First of all, anyone who wanted could have entered the Triple Crown. It was no more than a discount on entering SQC, IQC, and rta/spl but you had to enter all three to be eligible.
> I was even entered and I am an Expert. Although my car was not finished at the show I had already made commitments and came anyway. Steve Hunter competed in Amateur and won the award by the rules set forth by Moe and IASCA.
> 
> Congrats to Team Epsilon and Soundstream and PPI competitors. You had a strong showing at SBN this year. Do NOT however incinuate that any of my cars did not win fairly or was misclassed because your guy didn't win. Facts are facts. Your team did awesome, so did mine (3 cars this year) but the Triple Crown cup went to the appropriate
> ...



Todd, If I may, allow me to clarify the subject...
When the rules and classes were announced back in Oct. November of Last year. I had emailed IASCA and asked what the specific criteria was as far as how vehicles would be classified in amateur vs. Pro Am. the purpose of it as it was explained was it was going to be a middle step between a DIY and a shop Build system..in order to promote fair play for those competitors who would like to get into the " sport" but cannot afford a high end High Budget system, or (competitors like myself who fully build their own in a condo parking lot and do not have the access to a shop per say), & are not affiliated in the industry. 
Based upon the rules as they are written, Steve Hunter was classified correctly. Noone is disputing that or insinuating any wrongdoing on Steve's part whatsoever.. my question to IASCA came as such as to why a " shop Build" was put in amateur class when it specifically contradicted what I was previously told was going to be the baseline.. 

Based upon the rules Again "AS THEY ARE WRITTEN" there is no provision for the difference of DIY vs. Shop Builds. Where the "Miscalculation " would have come into play "per say" was on the install score. Based on the score which I had beat Steve by 1 point, The scoring Steve received in install, he was scored on an amatuer class score. if he had been in the pro am class for SBN he would have had to make up an additional 30 points +/- for the larger availability of creative elements points as it would have went from 60 to 90. Whether he would have made up those numbers in overage or not was where the differences would Lay. ( as 60 pts is max in amateur class), whether he made them up or not, I am not privey to.. But I do know that his SPL, as I had heard was between 125 to 127 and I assume a score of 30 out of 30 on RTA.. Based on those numbers because of the differences in creative elements this is where the flip flops in percentages would have occurred, and the Triple crown may very well have gone the opposite direction by about a percentage point. 

Because these rules were not written or put in place by IASCA the Triple Crown remains as it is.. No one especially Grizz nor I are discrediting Steve's accomplishment. As a matter of fact, I made a specific point to go to him after awards and congratulate him.. He is a very good and fierce competitor and deserves what he's won.. On that day he was the better competitor.. But for the greater good of IASCA and all the SQ Competitors current and future, IASCA said they will clarify the rules.. so that this never happens in the future... I truly hope you are not taking this out of context with any accusations or insinuations whatsoever as there is no ill will or mal-intent.. The issue lays within the rule book...


Again I congratulate you and your team on a very successful SBN and the Triple crown. and I Look forward to seeing you in the lanes in the 2011/2012 competition year

Jeff
AKA
Black Widow Accord
Team Soundstream SQ

FYI.... if you like you can run a comparitive on those numbers in order to see what is being referred to....

Here's my results from SBN QC Amateur 228 Install was 274 rta 30/30 and 120.1 on spl. as I do not know exactly what steve recieved for creative elements therefore I cant calculate the exact specifics or the differences, but I based the numbers on a 30 point additional base of the creative elements, 125 DB in spl, his SQ scores .. let me know what you figure out should you decide to calculate it.. Again Not discrediting your teams efforts, but this is a key reason why the rules and guidelines needed to be clear.. This was what was brought to IASCA's Attention... Again I congratulate you, Steve, Team TC Audio on a well deserved win in all categories...

Jeff


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## TeamTCA (Nov 20, 2008)

Jeff,

No, I do NOT have any ill-will towards you or any of your team. Not that it would matter either way but Steve also scored a maximum of 60 on creative elements and would have been higher if classified in the Pro-AM category. Would he have gotten the full 90 points available in that class? Who knows? Irrelevant at this point. 

I have read the rules and also been informed by Moe that there should have been something in "black and white" stating the difference between DIYer's and "shop built" vehicles. The fact is that there are not in the current 2011 Rules. I'm sure they will be changed next year with that clarification. SBN was Steve's first IASCA event ever. His vehicle has only been built for about a year. They would not let him enter INAC because he was not a member last season. He also competes in USACi and MECA but didnot enter any MECA events at SBN mainly due to time and planning as it was a last minute decision for him to actually go to Daytona in the first place.

The main issue that I have had with all of this is how Grizz "worded" his dispute in the beginning... _("But later finding show that Jeff did in fact win the award. But IASCA cannot pull back the award due to a discrepancy in the rule book.")_ ....now anyone reading this and not knowing what actually happened could easily have interpreted this as the wrong person winning the award. Now, after several responses, I think that we all agree that Steve won the Triple Crown (and IASCA even verifies this). So I have no problem with what has been said now that everything is clear.

I do build competition cars from all over the country. This is and has been my passion for over 20 years. It is harder and harder to remain in the RETAIL business and continue to do what I do but I am still trying. I build relationships with my customers and many have turned in to good friends (even those that don't compete any more) so when I see something on these forums (or anywhere else) that appears to be an unjust statement then I am going to defend them with anything in my power.

Steve, in particular, who is a good friend had to deal with a similar situation at last year's USACi Finals in Shreveport, LA (Oct. '10). This was his first ever "World Finals" event and when all was said and done and they did the trophy presentation there, he at first was not even called on stage for one of his formats that he had entered. The awards were given 1st thru 5th place and he was only called in one class (he had entered three). We patiently waited, got everyone's score sheet after this, and quickly saw where they (judging staff) had left off 21 points from his scoresheet. The points were there in black and white BUT when added they were left off for no apparent reason. It was a simple addition error. Not mine or Steve's fault but a simple mistake made by USACi's staff. They apologized and rectified the situation right then and there, recalled all contestants in his division (Modified SQ, Modified SQ+, and Modified Q) and then "redistributed" the trophies to the appropriate Top-5 in each class. The problem with this was that Steve went from originally being shown in 8th place to NOW 2nd place. Several of the competitors in his class were obviously upset but one guy in particular really "showed his ass" because he got "bumped" down a place and lost to Steve by only 1 point. Again, not Steve's fault but because of the controversy he had to deal with it. I have been involved with similar situations throughout the years with different competitors of mine and even myself in the past (addition mistakes) that have lead to changes in the overall outcome of an event. Any mistake is bad for everyone.

We did not in any way, purposely place Steve's Avalanche in the inappropriate class. He has never competed before and we originally thought he would be Rookie. We read that he could not compete in Rookie due to vehicle modifications and therefore placed him into Amateur. He was placed there by one of the head judges, BTW. Now, could he have been competitive in PRO-AM? Probably, but who knows for sure. I guess we will see next year. SBN 25 is over and all is said and done. I have no problem with the outcome and just do not appreciate all of the "what if" comments placed by anyone who thinks that we (or any of my Team) intentionally placed any vehicle in the wrong class to gain an unfair advantage. We all do this because we love it.

Hope to see you all in the near future at an event somewhere. Congrats and good luck to all....


Todd Crowder
TeamTCA
TC Audio
27 World Championships
Established 1989




Also....FYI.....
I'm sure you beat Steve on Install (1 point) because of your nice display (looked awesome too) as he had nothing for a display. His Avalanche was just parked in line with everyone else without so much as a piece of carpet or any kind of display or diagram, etc.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

^^^Well said Todd.


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## Black Widow Accord (Mar 3, 2011)

Todd.. I totally Understand what you are saying and Grizz is in agreeance Noone is saying that the wrong person won or there was necessarily a miscalculation or entering of the wrong class purposefully.. etc... what I placed in the forum last night was the accurate data as to which im filled in on as per IASCA. What grizz said was basically the same thing but I think in the typing, the language gets fowled at times and you dont type what you mean accurately and it get taken out of context or it just comes out typograpghically different... .. . I wanted to diffuse any clerical or logistical errors before they were blown out of proportion or misconstrued..or anything else.. This is the only reason Hence why I chimed in so I could relay the data from the first person standpoint... and correct the post accurately.. Closing this issue... ( Steve was placed in Amateur Correctly based on the rules as they were written) The rules as they were written, Ommitted the most important parts which were what classifies a vehicle to be in which class. this is what clarifies everything for the coming year! 

Best Wishes!

Jeff


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## Black Widow Accord (Mar 3, 2011)

TeamTCA said:


> Also....FYI.....
> I'm sure you beat Steve on Install (1 point) because of your nice display (looked awesome too) as he had nothing for a display. His Avalanche was just parked in line with everyone else without so much as a piece of carpet or any kind of display or diagram, etc.


Cant say what the difference of the one point was as Ive not seen his scoresheet.. All I can say is that whether a car has a floor, 100 trophies a 42" TV on a stand or nothing at all. Presentation points are counted based on the competitors presentation of the vehicle well as theme inside and out.. My theme carries throughout the vehicle from hood to trunk. For all we know Steve's Presentation both verbal and thematic could have been aces across the board and could have beat me easily.. I dont know.. Everything at this point is a learning curve. I have alot of details into things like my wiring and other elements which go over and beyond the norm. I honestly cant tell you what section of the score sheet the point(s) came from.. All I know now is, I know next year we will probably see alot more of the displays from other competitors.... LOL I think it raised an eyebrow and set something of a standard from the olden days.. In closing all I can say is Every point counts somewhere.. where I made it I have no idea.....


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

Let see some pics of said installs!!


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## jsketoe (Aug 8, 2008)

hmm...I remember the discussion about diy built vehilcles in rookie. My understanding after the discussion with the core rule crew was that a shop could build a vehicle in amateur. pro-am would be the class that would let shops compete against amateur vehicles that were ready to step up to harder class. A true mixing of non-pros playing with pros. 
And just another fyi is that Pro can be assigned by competitor experience or shop affiliation as in you work at a shop...not a shop built it.
In short, Steve rocks because he stepped up in a big way and won his SQC class, took second in IQC, and won triple crown. Todd rocks because he brought a camaro unfinished to the lanes because he told sponsors it would be there and he busted his tail after hours to get his car done, and our two vehicles on ready. Team TCA wins Championships. We are not a manufacturer team...we are a shop team of friends...family. You guys are just lucky a couple others didn't show up....

Per the 2011 Rule book:

6.2 - AMATEUR CLASS
6.2.1 - Intent
The intent of the Amateur Class is to provide a progression from the Rookie Class for competitors as they gain experience in competition and compete against others with the same experience level, with higher level modifications to their vehicles and systems. Systems are evaluated by 1 judge.
6.2.2 - Competitor Requirements for Amateur Class
 Competitors cannot be affiliated with the mobile electronics industry in any way, or receive industry support (sponsorship).
 For Competitors with up to 4 years of car audio competition experience.
 Competitors from other organizations may be reclassified to a higher class if it is evident that they possess a higher level of experience than allowed in Amateur Class competition, or if their vehicles exceed the modifications allowed.


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## Black Widow Accord (Mar 3, 2011)

sorry....LOL It wont let me upload pics as I dont have 50 posts here.. Plus to be honest, I'd be foolish to advertise what gives me a competitive edge in the lanes.... All I will say is its attention to detail.....


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

TeamTCA said:


> The main issue that I have had with all of this is how Grizz "worded" his dispute in the beginning... _("But later finding show that Jeff did in fact win the award. But IASCA cannot pull back the award due to a discrepancy in the rule book.")_ ....now anyone reading this and not knowing what actually happened could easily have interpreted this as the wrong person winning the award. Now, after several responses, I think that we all agree that Steve won the Triple Crown (and IASCA even verifies this). So I have no problem with what has been said now that everything is clear.


Aw hell, I always say what I feel and am not one for being always politically correct. That being said... ****! I am so sorry. Truly, I am. That sound freaking terrible! I am embarrassed. I guess while trying to recoop from the show, I spouted off without proofing my post. I am glad you understand that Jeff and I fully agree with you. Sorry about the mistake in my reply. I did not mean it the way it sounded. Please extend my apologies to Steve. 

Man, I'll tell ya, I hate taking the time to proof my emails, posts etc, but I could really save myself some embarrassment some times if I did. Oh, well, I am man enough to admit all of my mistakes and screw ups...

Have a great week...


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## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

Black Widow Accord said:


> sorry....LOL It wont let me upload pics as I dont have 50 posts here.. Plus to be honest, I'd be foolish to advertise what gives me a competitive edge in the lanes.... All I will say is its attention to detail.....


Post the pics bro. No pics are going to give somebody an advantage over not seeing the pics. Pics are only that, just pics...


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## Black Widow Accord (Mar 3, 2011)

jsketoe said:


> hmm...I remember the discussion about diy built vehilcles in rookie. My understanding after the discussion with the core rule crew was that a shop could build a vehicle in amateur. pro-am would be the class that would let shops compete against amateur vehicles that were ready to step up to harder class. A true mixing of non-pros playing with pros.
> And just another fyi is that Pro can be assigned by competitor experience or shop affiliation as in you work at a shop...not a shop built it.
> In short, Steve rocks because he stepped up in a big way and won his SQC class, took second in IQC, and won triple crown. Todd rocks because he brought a camaro unfinished to the lanes because he told sponsors it would be there and he busted his tail after hours to get his car done, and our two vehicles on ready. Team TCA wins Championships. We are not a manufacturer team...we are a shop team of friends...family. You guys are just lucky a couple others didn't show up....
> 
> ...


ok read what you just said... "pro-am would be the class that would let shops compete against amateur vehicles" If you are a shop, You are a PRO AUTOMATICALLY! This is the mistake in the rewriting of the rules... A shop Competing against an amatuer with a higher experience is still Pro Class its just that the amateur has moved up to a higher level class with a higher level install.. ( Unless you truly believe that on the "AVERAGE" a true amatuer out side of the industry has the capability to build a car that will take out a shop build... ? .. why would you put a dual class for pro's to compete against amatuers and then one to compete against pro's only???.. The " shops would compete in Pro Am all day long cause they would decimate over the diy'ers from amateur graduating up.. the whole point of the pro-am idea was to seperate the amatuers with a shop build (checkbook system) form the amateur DIY-ers who have a year or two experience in comp and no longer qualify for rookie.. this eliminates the unfair advantage of the install portion.. "Pro Build- amateur competitor" If the amateur competitor knows and learns his system intimately he is virtually on the same level as the pro as the Fabrication of the system stems from the same (Place).. the only difference at that point is the tuned ear and the presentational points.. Yet he is still not affiliated in the industry... Ultimately what is missing is this.. what modifications would you consider to be that which classifies as too high of a mod for amatuer? considering that the old ford truck that was parked next to me at SBN was a first year sq competitor he has a single din Kenwood head deck a "PYLE " screen and home fabricated kickpods on the floor.. does someone like this deserve to get thrown into a class with guys who spend 5 6 7 10K $$ on an install only because of him trying to make something himself. theres no point. And would you as a competitor with a pro build really take pride in whooping someone who had 1/100'th of your install and equipment over and above budget based on the rule of type of install? if you did, youd be inhumane and no different that the big Playground bully. cause as you stayed at the bottom of the lowest class going in to only win a trophy.. Simply put, pro builds belong in competition with other pro builds not with DIY'ers .. UNLESS!!!! The DIY'er chooses to make that move upward.. now when the diy'er after 4 years has experience in amateur now he / she has enough experience to try to step up to the next level and try his hand against a higher grade build... again the PRO-am as it was explained yet failed to apparently have been overlooked in the rules, is suppossed to be the "inbetween" for the pro-build amatuers with a checkbook system, and the rookies now amatuers that are DIY.. put a really really good example to the mix here.. same poor schmuck with the DIY' pods in the 1975 ford f series gets bumped to amateur and has to go up against Steve Anderson's Lexus..... REALLY? I think that example speaks Volumes........ I welcome your thoughts...


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## Black Widow Accord (Mar 3, 2011)

Grizz Archer said:


> Post the pics bro. No pics are going to give somebody an advantage over not seeing the pics. Pics are only that, just pics...


Grizz the forum wont let me post! Not enough postings here yet.. It says I need 50 Posts If you have pics of the accord post em!


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## jsketoe (Aug 8, 2008)

I refer back to the rule book on this one...the IASCA certified judge in me pulls that string. In my own opinion, so what if a shop built it...I've been doing this since the late 90s and I've seen diy'ers win. What about who tunes it? Where does that get credit? If a rookie has a big industry name tune their vehicle does that not get some type of advantage? You bet it does. But, that is also showing the competitors what manufacturers are in the lanes backing their product. I've seen Scott Buwalda and Nick Wingate jump in competitors cars running their product...no Team affiliation...and get an awesome tune. That shows the competitors who supports their product. That's just like Epsilon group supporting you guys. So really...this is a pot calling the kettle black moment. Just from a different angle. We are all in this to be competitive...we want to win against deserving cars. I've only done IASCA for three years but I've done USACi since the late 90s. I own a transportation company...I'm pro in IASCA and ran pro-advanced and now supermod in USAC. I did this by choice because I had won amateur/consumer divisions and it was the next progression. I didn't want to sit there and sand bag. It also lets shops bring new blood in as well to have a truly amateur/consumer competitor move up.
I do understand your beef. I feel the gentleman with the older Ford was at a disadvantage in amateur...but, that's how competition is man...what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I've watched competitors come in not knowing anything come to me for help with an install needing help...I've helped, my team mates have helped, now these guys have top notch cars placing in the top 3 at finals events with both iasca and usac. I judged a guy back years ago that didn't have a clue at the time and has now won title after title. 
I don't think we should be bucking the system and finger pointing at loop holes...if we see a competitor at a disadvantage...we should jump in and help them and make them want to keep doing this and coming back again.


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## jsketoe (Aug 8, 2008)

and I for one feel bad because I didn't take the time to go meet some guys in the lanes. I was kind of all over the place checking in and talking with everyone. I know I met Chad briefly...great guy. Your accord had judges when I came by...I was going to try to talk to you as well. Your car looks great.


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## jsketoe (Aug 8, 2008)

And for the record...I have paid for everything, equipment and install. I tune my own car and help tune others. I am on the same side of the fence as you or Steve Hunter or Steve Anderson or Abram Hart or many of my other Team mates. I have paid my dues and worked my way up through the years. I'm now one of the key people on three manufacturer Teams. It's humbling honestly when people know me and I don't know them. Or they saw my car in this or that magazine or my picture on a banner or in a booth. It's crazy...to me, this is a love...a hobby, but one that I wish was my primary source of business/income. I love pro, home, and car audio. My degree is in Telecommunication with a music minor...this "hobby" and the work at my church is the only time I have to use it.
Also, I support the shop that does my work...I've competed at shows to help TCAudio make a presence before. That's because I believe in Todd and that work that he does oh so well. Once again, a consumer...not a pro...but a pro by choice in order to make room for new blood and raise new challenges.
Congrats to the Epsilon group and your accomplishments, really! I'm sorry if this bantering distracts from your thread.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Chad Romano...I know that name from somewhere, but where?


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

Just so that no one here things that Convertibles can't be competitive, My Mustang has yet to lose any show it has been in, my car is 12 yrs old. 

As for this thread, I know Todd and John, both outstanding people and competitors. I have also had the pleasure of working side by side with them when rewriting USAC's SQ rules. They are sticklers for details.

As for Team PPI, well done! Outstanding showing for your team! It is about time that PPI makes a name for itself again.

Convertible has been done. Myself, Ruperto Aguilar and now the PPI Solara have proven that you can have excellent sound in a convertible.

Well done!


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## Black Widow Accord (Mar 3, 2011)

jsketoe said:


> I refer back to the rule book on this one...the IASCA certified judge in me pulls that string. In my own opinion, so what if a shop built it...I've been doing this since the late 90s and I've seen diy'ers win. What about who tunes it? Where does that get credit? If a rookie has a big industry name tune their vehicle does that not get some type of advantage? You bet it does. But, that is also showing the competitors what manufacturers are in the lanes backing their product. I've seen Scott Buwalda and Nick Wingate jump in competitors cars running their product...no Team affiliation...and get an awesome tune. That shows the competitors who supports their product. That's just like Epsilon group supporting you guys. So really...this is a pot calling the kettle black moment. Just from a different angle. We are all in this to be competitive...we want to win against deserving cars. I've only done IASCA for three years but I've done USACi since the late 90s. I own a transportation company...I'm pro in IASCA and ran pro-advanced and now supermod in USAC. I did this by choice because I had won amateur/consumer divisions and it was the next progression. I didn't want to sit there and sand bag. It also lets shops bring new blood in as well to have a truly amateur/consumer competitor move up.
> I do understand your beef. I feel the gentleman with the older Ford was at a disadvantage in amateur...but, that's how competition is man...what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I've watched competitors come in not knowing anything come to me for help with an install needing help...I've helped, my team mates have helped, now these guys have top notch cars placing in the top 3 at finals events with both iasca and usac. I judged a guy back years ago that didn't have a clue at the time and has now won title after title.
> I don't think we should be bucking the system and finger pointing at loop holes...if we see a competitor at a disadvantage...we should jump in and help them and make them want to keep doing this and coming back again.


John I could not agree with you more and we do hands down jump in and help where we can.. But heres the other end of the sword.. Other than the name of the team in all honesty. Other than the team affiliation what does Epsilon do for me? Not much.. Im not sponsored. I dont get freebies or deepend prices. all of mty system is paid for via retail outlets and in the past some ebay stuff as well... the corporate engineers do not tune my car I really dont get much other than technical support via phone when needed.. If youve been in the lanes then you know Chad.. he until this year was out of the lanes and was the ears behind my system meaning he did my fine tuning. so Ultimately it is irrelavant wheather you are a manufacturers team or not unless you have distinct benefits, .. They dont pay my entries, travel, hotel, or even a beer at the irish pub.. I just happen to have their product love how it sounds and performs, Ultimately I love supporting the 12 volt industry and love my car, and while competing I have made great friends in the process.. it just happens to be that the team is of a manufacturer.. every team is different.. if not for chad who is not a manufacturer I dont know who would tune my car.. In rookie year Paul pirro jiumped in and took a listen along with steve head.. Last year jeff Smith Jumped in... Again none of them are manufacturers just experienced competitors helping me to become better. Ultimately the goal (as it was explained to me) was the new class was to level the playing field as to encourage people to want to compete and grow, not walk in and have their a$$ handed to them day in and day out.. Not every competitor is willing to go to the next guy's car and help them. Nature of competition.. but for the rebuild of the sport and to bring it bac to what it once was will take time, and if they need to create a class to eliminate sand bagging and seperate the men from the boys so bee it I agree with the logic.. I have 2 years in and have learned alot. But Im nowhere near the expertise of a shop quality build like other competitors and in my opinion Im not interested in wasting a ton of my teacher's salary every year if Im unable to compete on a level playing fieild with " like" competitors... its like putting a pop warner football team on the field with High school and High School on the field with NFL.. Its two tottally different levels.. No different than putting a pro car against Scott's 240 if you had to do it over and over would you bother? Probably not cause you know that the level of detail and expertise would almost always be too much to overcome....


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> Chad Romano...I know that name from somewhere, but where?


You are kidding right? Chad, used to drive the silver neon, from Ft. Lauderdale...  :laugh::laugh:


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

We are kicking ourselves for not competing in the Triple Crown. Way to go TCA.


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## oldno7brand (Mar 15, 2011)

I had the pleasure of judging the Installs for this class.....

As a longtime competitor from the early 90's and also now a Judge.... 
Both Steve's Avalanche and Jeff's Accord were top notch.

I can assure you the fit and finish of the Avalanche were excellent and it is a very well executed system. The pass through and vinylwork was sweet.

The Accord is in a different style and reminds me of the old trunk layouts of yesterday such as Tyrone Chesnuts Accord. It had very nice suede trim and highlighting etc.

I encourage everyone to lookup the Accord on the S.Stream Website (Team Photos) and also Steve's excellent build on the TCA website.
Both cars are extremely well done!

Both competitors were extremely passionate and knowledgable about our Hobby/Sport and it was a priviledge to speak with both of them.

Todd.... your passion shows in your workmanship and Steve is a great guy.
Jeff .... your efforts also clearly show your motivation and love of audio.

My only regret is that with the judging schedule and all the work I happily put in I never got to listen to either system after they competed in the SQ portion...... (Bummer)

I was extremely impressed with both of you!!!

Insofar as the rules .... I cannot speak for everyone but in my opinion rules are always constantly evolving but the most important rule of all.....
By the way it is clearly towards the first few pages of the book....
is to have fun......

Up until this year I always thought judging was easy as a competitor.
I can assure you applying rules to great systems and better yet great and talented persons is one of the most challenging things I have ever had to do.

I hope everyone was happy with the outcomes....... You all did great!

Jon Kennedy
IASCA Certified Judge SQ/Install


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I remember the car, remember the name...but I swear I can't put a face with that name.

He had a personalized tag too didn't he?



AccordUno said:


> You are kidding right? Chad, used to drive the silver neon, from Ft. Lauderdale...  :laugh::laugh:


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Evilbass

I remember that guy.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Acura...

And are we talking about the same Tyrone? Cause that Accord is pretty far from what Tyrone's Acura was like.



oldno7brand said:


> The Accord is in a different style and reminds me of the old trunk layouts of yesterday such as Tyrone Chesnuts Accord. It had very nice suede trim and highlighting etc.


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## oldno7brand (Mar 15, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> Acura...
> 
> And are we talking about the same Tyrone? Cause that Accord is pretty far from what Tyrone's Acura was like.


You are correct Acura....my apologies when I wrote that I was semi-sure it was an Accord but later realized it was an Acura:dunce2:

.... I think it was a legend right? with the Pro-Tech subs.....

(And now back to our feature presentation):lurk:


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## SQAvalanche (Mar 29, 2011)

I guess I should post.....

First, I would like to thank Todd Crowder and TCAudio for the fantastic job they did with my 2008 Chevy Avalanche. In addition to the work, I would like to thank Todd for his direction and advise related to competition (not only IASCA but USACi and MECA). Second, I want to thank John Sketoe and Abram Hart and the rest of Team TCA for the help and time put in listening, tuning and more listening. Without their help and guidance we could not have achieved the sound we have in my truck. This was truly a team effort. All of this has been a learning experience for me and without being part of such a supportive team, I'm not sure any of this would be possible. You guys truly rock!

I would also like to congratulate Team Epsilon, Team JBL, Team Hybrids and Team Arc Audio (sorry if I forgot anyone) on their accomplishments at SBN 25. Let's face it, without team support and the drive for excellence this sport would not be what it is. Also, all the teams will be what carries and grows the sport for the future.

I also have to give it up to IASCA and their staff of judges that did a fantastic job at SBN 25. I can appreciate the effort and execution that goes into an event the size of SBN and INAC. This was my first SBN and have to say it will not be my last. I really did enjoy my time in Daytona. I do regret not having more time to go around and get to know the other competitors, but having to be around for judging and all the preparation work makes it almost impossible.

As for some of the comments - I did take a little offense to what Grizz initially posted, but he has apologized and we can move on. I will say that I was involved in every aspect of the build in my Avalanche. Todd was gracious enough to allow me there everyday. From laying sound deadener to tech-flexing wires or giving him my ideas for design. Some of my ideas were good and some were way off base. Saying or classifying it as a checkbook install is incorrect. 

I will continue to compete in IASCA, USACi and MECA according to the rules written in each sanctioning bodies rule book. As the sport continues, the rules will continue to grow and mature. It's up to us as competitors to know them backwards and forwards as every point counts.

I look forward to seeing you guys in the lanes this year.

Steve


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

TeamTCA said:


> Jeff,
> 
> 
> Steve, in particular, who is a good friend had to deal with a similar situation at last year's USACi Finals in Shreveport, LA (Oct. '10). The awards were given 1st thru 5th place and he was only called in one class (he had entered three). We patiently waited, got everyone's score sheet after this, and quickly saw where *they (judging staff) had left off 21 points from his scoresheet*. The points were there in black and white BUT when added they were left off for no apparent reason. It was a simple addition error.
> ...


The fact that score sheet addition problems are still occurring at USACi Finals is very disappointing and also ridiculous.
It happened to me in 2001, only the correction came weeks after Finals...
It is appalling that USACi promotes itself as a legitimate and fair organization has continued to have the same basic addition problems at the biggest show of the year for decades!!


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## Black Widow Accord (Mar 3, 2011)

SQAvalanche said:


> I guess I should post.....
> 
> First, I would like to thank Todd Crowder and TCAudio for the fantastic job they did with my 2008 Chevy Avalanche. In addition to the work, I would like to thank Todd for his direction and advise related to competition (not only IASCA but USACi and MECA). Second, I want to thank John Sketoe and Abram Hart and the rest of Team TCA for the help and time put in listening, tuning and more listening. Without their help and guidance we could not have achieved the sound we have in my truck. This was truly a team effort. All of this has been a learning experience for me and without being part of such a supportive team, I'm not sure any of this would be possible. You guys truly rock!
> 
> ...


 Steve I apreciate your comments and congradulate you on the win Hands down you had it..  My only reason for coming in to post what I did on my first post was to Correct what was said in its most basic form, The way its "articulated" I knew what Grizz meant on his post but the way he said it sounded way way different thatn what it came out to be..  In now way did anyone accuse you or your " comp" team of cheating.... Thats not sportsmanship, and this is what the sport is suppossed to be all about..  Look forward to seeing you in the lanes! 

Jeff


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## oldno7brand (Mar 15, 2011)

If I might make a suggestion I think we should all hang out more per during the show.

Some of the best time I had up in Daytona this year was hanging out with everyone and seeing in the words of one our friends... BIG CHIZZ!!!!!:laugh:\
Half the fun of these events are meeting everyone and seeing awesome stuff.

In the SPL area there was a certain van with religious material and playing Christian Music just booming..... you have to love when you look into the side of the truck and see a bunch of bibles/pamphlets on a display board where you would think the amps would be..... I walked past that van and just was like wow these people are just out here having a blast dancing etc. I said to the guy holding radio with umbilical cord, that is just killer... the whole truck just put a smile on my face.

No matter what team you are on LETS MINGLE!!!! :beerchug:
Teamates our our brothers....


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## Black Widow Accord (Mar 3, 2011)

oldno7brand said:


> If I might make a suggestion I think we should all hang out more per during the show.
> 
> Some of the best time I had up in Daytona this year was hanging out with everyone and seeing in the words of one our friends... BIG CHIZZ!!!!!:laugh:\
> Half the fun of these events are meeting everyone and seeing awesome stuff.
> ...


 Here, Here! Ill drink to that!!!!


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## evilbass (Apr 19, 2011)

I just spilled my beer... BRB....


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