# Alpine PDX-F6 cutting out? Not clipping, grounds are good....??



## scotty89 (Apr 7, 2011)

Okay, so I'll try to keep this short as no-one usually answers my questions when they're too long to read.

Car is 2001 BMW 330Ci - OEM battery, located in the boot, factory wiring is already 0 gauge to battery. I believe the alternator is 110 amps? (I'd have to check)

I am running 4 AWG from the BMW fuse block (using the factory 250A fuse) to power the amp. 

The amp is grounded directly into the parcel shelf using 4 AWG in a Stinger grounding foot/terminal. 

I have sanded the section behind the grounding foot back to bare metal, and the ground measures a resistance of 0.6 ohms to the battery (-'ve). 
I think most of this resistance is due to the cheap multimeter probes because they measure 0.4 ohms on their own.

Setup is as follows:
- Dynavin head unit
- 2 front channels RCA (full range signal) feeding Alpine PXE-H650 processor
- 4 channels RCA from PXE-H650 feeding PDX-F6
- Front speakers are 3 ohm components (Boston Pro60SE)
- Rear speakers are 4 ohm components (Boston SR60)

Remote wire is connected to the Remote ON of the PXE-H650 and Remote terminal on PDX-F6.


*The Problem:*
Playing at low/easy listening levels - with gains set to "nominal" (i.e. half way), there is no audible clipping through the speakers, and the clipping light on PXE-H650 does not light up - however the sound will occasionally cut out for about half a second then resume playing.

As it turns out the head unit is still playing, the PXE always remains on, but the PDX will go lights out for a split second, cutting the sound before it powers back up and resumes playing again. There is no popping, or ugly noises, the sound simply cuts momentarily.

Normally this would lead me to believe the amp is protecting itself - however this does not seem to be the case.

The amp does not 'shutdown' as such, it just momentarily (and I mean very brief, less than half a second) goes lights out, and then powers up again.

*
The manual says that the front light on the PDX will turn from blue to red if the amp is in protection mode (too much voltage, too hot etc). The light however does not light up red - the lights instead just turn off momentarily.*

I first noticed this when driving home - car was running (obviously) and the A/C was off, no other electrical accessories were on, volume was moderate (not pumping) yet the cut out still occurred.

I don't know why or how this occurring. I tried to find the cause when I got home, however with the car off I was only able to work with 12.0 to 12.2volts and I don't think this helped.
I have double checked all the terminals, everything is tight - ground, power and remote wires are not loose. *There are no other amplifiers wired into the system yet, just this single 4 channel powering 4 speakers.*

Although I did turn it up, to see if the power consumption was causing the problem but the amp would not cut out immediately as I expected. It would play without issue for a while and only do it a couple of times. It seemed to do it just as much (if not more) while the volume was right down, and the stereo was barely playing.

I am no expert, but I'm not completely new to car audio. I've installed aftermarket head units, amps and wired the lot myself without problems.
In the last car I ran V-power amps (300w 4ch + 1000w Mono), for hours while the car was off without any issues so I do not believe that a lack of power is causing the amp to cut out. The head unit and processor do not shutdown during the problem (although they might not have similar protection circuits to the amp?).

Does anyone have an F6 and has seen it enter protection mode? Can these "red lights" be clearly seen when the amp shuts down??


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Not to sound to crazy, but did you look at your remote wire, where are you getting your ACC power from ?

I had a problem where I had 2-3 amps connected to the same remote wire, there wasn't enough of power going though it, and my amps were shutting its self off, I was going crazy as well with out knowing what is going on.

You might give a try and if that helps.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

I'm thinking RTO wire too... 

Have you checked THAT connection? I know silly, but sometimes you can tighten a ground and neglect the rest in haste.. 

Put a meter on the RTO and play it, wait for it to shut down.. if the amp drops, but not the RTO, then you may have an amp problem... if the RTO drops, then you may have a source or source connection issue..


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## 02bluesuperroo (Oct 31, 2006)

You can also try to remove the remote turn on and jump the 12v+ connection on the amp over to the remote turn on. See if the amp quits turning off...


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## scotty89 (Apr 7, 2011)

quickaudi07 said:


> Not to sound to crazy, but did you look at your remote wire, where are you getting your ACC power from ?
> 
> I had a problem where I had 2-3 amps connected to the same remote wire, there wasn't enough of power going though it, and my amps were shutting its self off, I was going crazy as well with out knowing what is going on.
> 
> You might give a try and if that helps.


I thought this might be the case - however the processor is also connected to the same remote wire, and it doesn't turn off during the outage.

EDIT: WAIT, I know the processor has a few seconds delay before it shuts down... I think this could be the problem!! I will wire the remote terminals to constant +12v tonight and test it.

Wow, I can't believe I didn't think of that at the time. 



Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> I'm thinking RTO wire too...
> 
> Have you checked THAT connection? I know silly, but sometimes you can tighten a ground and neglect the rest in haste..
> 
> Put a meter on the RTO and play it, wait for it to shut down.. if the amp drops, but not the RTO, then you may have an amp problem... if the RTO drops, then you may have a source or source connection issue..


That was the item I first checked, because it is certainly displaying those symptoms. Unfortunately the remote wire is secure.



02bluesuperroo said:


> You can also try to remove the remote turn on and jump the 12v+ connection on the amp over to the remote turn on. See if the amp quits turning off...


Thanks - My brother said I should try this as well. I'm going to test it tonight when I get home from work.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

scotty89 said:


> That was the item I first checked, because it is certainly displaying those symptoms. Unfortunately the remote wire is secure.



I was talking as much about its connection security, as I was about weather or not the output from the HU on the RTO line was dropping out electrically or not...


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## jim walter (Apr 10, 2010)

Good advice in here guys, ESP the constant 12V to trouble shoot. 

One question. The H650 has remote in and remote out. It sounds like you are running the remote out on the radio to both the amp and processor. Is that right? That could be a culprit if the signal is low and you are dropping signal in the chain. If the H650 is constant on, then the output of the rem lead to the amp should keep that amp on better than the HU wire may do.


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## scotty89 (Apr 7, 2011)

jim walter said:


> Good advice in here guys, ESP the constant 12V to trouble shoot.
> 
> One question. The H650 has remote in and remote out. It sounds like you are running the remote out on the radio to both the amp and processor. Is that right? That could be a culprit if the signal is low and you are dropping signal in the chain. If the H650 is constant on, then the output of the rem lead to the amp should keep that amp on better than the HU wire may do.


Head unit RTO > H650 Remote ON, and H650 Remote OUT > PDX remote
That's how I first had it wired, but the problem occurred.

As the manual is useless (the wiring diagram is wrong) I then wired it how I thought it should go, and it still does it.

The manual says to:
- Connect RTO wire to the 'Remote OUT' on the PXE-H650 and also the Remote terminals on any aftermarket amps. This does not however turn the H650 on, but the amp will power up.

I thought it should be:
- Connect RTO to 'Remote ON' of H650, and then connect the H650's 'Remote OUT' to the remote terminal on the amps. 


Reading the descriptions of the wires in the manual, this is what any normal person would wire it up to do as the manual says:

Remote ON - signal from head unit to turn the processor on.
Remote OUT - used to turn on external amps, signal goes high when H650's mute is OFF.

So I then connected the RTO in parallel to the Remote ON of the H650 and the Remote terminal on the amp. (Head unit remote > H650 Remote ON + PDX remote) But the problem is still occurring.


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## scotty89 (Apr 7, 2011)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> I was talking as much about its connection security, as I was about weather or not the output from the HU on the RTO line was dropping out electrically or not...


Right, and I think this may be the problem.

I originally skipped the idea because the H650 does not shutdown during the problem (so I assumed that the RTO was good).

But as mentioned above by quickaudi, I think that the RTO might actually be dropping from the head unit, but the Processor has a delayed turn-off so it may not time out and shut down before the RTO regains power (therefore it appears to have no problems because it doesn't get time to cut out).

I'm about to go out and test constant +12v to the remote terminals on the amp and see if that helps.


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## scotty89 (Apr 7, 2011)

Update:

It's not the RTO, it must be the amp.

I connected a spare length of paired 18awg speaker wire to the distribution block (constant +12v) to the remote wire of the amp + processor, but the problem still occurs.

I also turned the head unit off (with the amp + processor still permanently on) and waited while watching the PDX... the lights still go out/ shut down without the amp even amplifying anything!!

Anyone know what I can do? I am about to contact the seller now (bought from a large seller on eBay a while back) and I hope I can still get a response from them. 

EDIT: okay, so I clicked about on eBay and have opened a dispute on PayPal with the seller. I have explained the situation and hopefully they will respond co-operatively. Just as well I did get my butt into gear, the resolution centre was only available until the 13th May... yikes!


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## scotty89 (Apr 7, 2011)

Video of the amp being a **** face:
(skip to 0:47, and 1:47)
http://youtu.be/x6ingsZlYWo?hd=1


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## scotty89 (Apr 7, 2011)

Update:

After numerous hours of testing all the components and variables I could - I could not see a problem with anything in my car.

I removed the amp and wired directly to a 12v power source - with the amp operating at 12.7 volts and no load or input connected, the amp still cuts out randomly for a short moment and then powers back up.

I'm uploading a video to Youtube now.


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## sum_guy55 (Apr 14, 2011)

Is it under waranty?

Edit: Where did you get it out of interest (i'm also from melbourne.)


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## scotty89 (Apr 7, 2011)

I'm going to get flamed hardcore for this but oh well. I guess I deserve it.

I bought the amp from eBay.
I did do some research - looked about eBay, read through all the negative feedback from the seller (has over 8,000 positive, and only 11 negative).

Most of the sellers feedback was negative because people were complaining about slow shipping and other rubbish.
I didn't see any feedback at all about counterfeit or fake products.
I did a google search and found no disaster stories about other tragic victims relating to this seller.

I thought I was good to go - the seller is in the states, and everything appeared legit. The listing claimed it was brand new- factory sealed and not refurbished or a factory second... and true, when it arrived, everything was in order and looked immaculate.


*Before purchasing on eBay however,* I did go and ask my local store first - when I was browsing they only had the first gen PDX's on display and it was the 4.100. I specifically wanted 4 * 150rms, so I asked the guy if he could price up a second gen PDX for me and he pointed to the old PDX on the wall.

After I explained that I was after the new generation of PDX that had come out many months ago, and told him I wasn't really interested the one on the wall - the bloke went off ranting about how he's never heard of the new PDX's, and they mustn't be released in Aus yet otherwise he'd know all about them and blah blah blah... he then went on to try and shuffle me into buying some other amps he was obviously trying to get rid of. I half expected this to happen, as it occurred three years ago on my last build (different salesman though). I realised that he wasn't interested in helping me, but only helping himself.


I have bought car audio from overseas before and it has been a positive experience in the past. With the AUS dollar at greater value than the USD, the deal that I found on ebay was unbeatable by a LONG SHOT with anything that was online in Aus. Even with postage included, so... after hesitating for a week or two I finally decided to buy from this US seller.

Turns out I learnt the hard way. Nonetheless I paid with PayPal and they have backed me up numerous times before when other asian sellers have tried to do the dodgy on me over eBay (w/ non-car audio related items). So I hope to god that PayPal stays true to their word and helps me out this time.


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## scotty89 (Apr 7, 2011)

Here is the video of the bench test. 

YouTube - PDX F6 Bench test fault - cutting out under no load
Please excuse the language, I was running out of patience with the amplifier at this stage.


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## sum_guy55 (Apr 14, 2011)

scotty89 said:


> I'm going to get flamed hardcore for this but oh well. I guess I deserve it.
> 
> I bought the amp from eBay.
> I did do some research - looked about eBay, read through all the negative feedback from the seller (has over 8,000 positive, and only 11 negative).
> ...


Out of interest What shop was it you went to check it out?

I've also been considering buying an amp from ebay although the pdx f4 but after your experience maybe its worth the extra ~$150 to get it in aus.


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## scotty89 (Apr 7, 2011)

It was JB Hifi.

I have later found that there is a car audio specialist shop in Frankston - but nonetheless their prices are around the same.

The price difference between the F6 from the US was a lot greater than $150, compared to Aus.

JB is still selling the PDX-4.100 for $899 (when I was in there last) and the best deal he could do was just over $800. 
Keep in mind that was the 1st Gen, lower spec PDX 4 channel. For the new model with higher power rating, they'll try and gouge you over $1000 if they ever get it in to stock.


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## sum_guy55 (Apr 14, 2011)

I bought my Alpine type r 6.5" splits off an austrlaian guy on ebay prices aren't to bad.

eBay My World - elite_electronics_au

He has the pdx f4 for $700.


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## scotty89 (Apr 7, 2011)

That is not a bad price, $700 for the F6 and $500 for the F4... but that's still online.

While that is better than buying from overseas from our point of view, it still doesn't match buying in person, from a local retail store. 
You can actually front up and speak to the store manager if things go sour and the salesman has gone back on their word. 

Online stores you can't do this. When they've had enough of dealing with you, or a problem comes up that they're not willing to solve, they can simply block your emails.

If I can't get this seller to co-operate, I will ring Alpine Australia and ask if they will have a tech look at the amp and quote for repairs. Hopefully it's something insignificant, as it seems to perform well - it sounds fine, and powers the speakers well, but it just cuts out very briefly every so often.


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## scotty89 (Apr 7, 2011)

Just an update - I got the replacement amp from the seller a week or two ago.

Brand new one (different serial) and the birth sheet reads a newer production date (output on this one is 182wRMS @ 4ohm).

Works perfectly now. Haven't changed a single thing in the car or wiring, just plugged in the new amp and went for it, and never had a fault since.

Now to seal the front doors and get the sub box built.

Thanks to all who helped me troubleshoot my problems - much appreciated.


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## IceWaLL (May 30, 2005)

scotty89 said:


> Just an update - I got the replacement amp from the seller a week or two ago.
> 
> Brand new one (different serial) and the birth sheet reads a newer production date (output on this one is 182wRMS @ 4ohm).
> 
> ...


Wow you take a chance on Ebay and the seller sends you a replacement?!?! Now that's some great service!


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## DNR900 (Jan 18, 2012)

I had the exact same problem! I had the old model of the PDX-F6 and hooked up a RF 1500.1bd then it started cutting out with remote, ground and B+ good. Did the big 3 (in 0gauge) and a 350 amp upgrade plus 2 kinetic batteries 600 for the highs and 1800 for the lows thought it was a voltage problem because the Alpine amp lights were dimming, When it cut out. But the stinger voltage meter I installed read ~13.3-14.4 volts. So i went through the entire system and checked every connection RCA'S(replaced), Ground (replaced), and B+ (replaced), Remote (replaced), and disconnected the EQ still cutting out. then I ran a 0 gauge straight from the front battery to the 600 amp battery and ran it to the amp in 4GA wire NO MORE CUT OFF NO MORE LIGHTS DIMMING WHEN THE BASS HITS ALLLLLLLL GOOOD!!! Try it out... It is a Class D amp even though Alpine says it sip power obviously it takes a little more that they say. 

PS: I had a pac 200amp isolator but an installer told me a long time ago it chokes the amount of power allowed to the system...


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