# Android Tab + ms8/dsp 'CarPC' build suggestions



## Heide264

Hey all,

I picked up a 2011 STi 5-door in March, and if you weren't aware, the sound system in them is garbage from the factory. I've done some simple car audio installs in the past, but nothing too complicated. Standard head unit/amps/sub/factory speaker mount locations routine.

Anyhow, I was trying to plan out my upgrade. After giving it some thought, I like the idea of using an android tablet of sorts. I can always pick it up and go, and if I wait a bit, I'm sure a 4G 7" tablet is around the corner. 10" is a bit big for my dash, and I don't know if I would be able to easily retrofit a 'dock' for it.

I don't need perfect sound, but I do like a nice setup. Given how loud the car itself is, I am only doing a simple sound deadening job. I was thinking that placing an ms-8 after the tablet may be the best way to go. It would eliminate having to mess too much with any dsp, and I think fit my situation pretty well.

I plan on using the tablet for both multimedia and performance reasons. I want to make up a nice android app down the line for gauge display... Trying to prevent my car looking like a gauge filled christmas tree.

So in summary:
-7" Android based tablet of sorts, 4g connection hopefully
-JBL ms-8 or similar DSP (any suggestions?)
-Old bandpass sub box to start out (2x8"s) - will be changed to a spare tire compartment sealed box eventually
-Old 300W USAmps Amp for the sub
-Front stage TBD (will stay with the factory speakers for a bit I think.. Not long most likely)

Thoughts? Suggestions? 

As of now, I see the biggest hurdle being the 'bezel' fabrication (little experience with it personally), followed by I/O (drivers) on the tablet for anything I want to implement.


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## spl152db

this is an interesting idea, and now it has me curious if i can use a touch screen with the motorola photon dock, mimic my display and have a quick and easy media player in my center console... be better if the android could handle all the processing though. crossovers, eq, t/a. but with stereo out, i don't think so. now if you wait till the RF 3sixty.3 comes out it should support android and then its an all in one solution and PERFECT. that's likely what i'll be doing.


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## Heide264

spl152db said:


> this is an interesting idea, and now it has me curious if i can use a touch screen with the motorola photon dock, mimic my display and have a quick and easy media player in my center console... be better if the android could handle all the processing though. crossovers, eq, t/a. but with stereo out, i don't think so. now if you wait till the RF 3sixty.3 comes out it should support android and then its an all in one solution and PERFECT. that's likely what i'll be doing.


I haven't heard anything about the RF DSP stuff. The sub box I have is actually a ~30year old RF box. I called for specifications about it but nobody could help me. The construction of it is phenomenal though. Amazing how efficient the thing is.

Some of those tablets are supporting HDMI out now (at least the phones are). I'm not too familiar with the sound side of HDMI, but I think it is a safe assumption that it is better than a 3.5mm out.

As I said - I don't really want to dive too far into the 'self tuning' part of it. I don't mind doing that with home theater based stuff, but as far as car audio goes - I'd rather have it taken care of. Half of the time in that car I'd much rather listen to the engine/gear box then the (terrible) radio in it. The tablet would be great because I could use it to monitor performance aspects and double check my tune with it as well as media.


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## scooter99

Check out my build log, in my signature. I'm actually going to pick up my tablet (samsung galaxy 10.1) at lunch (in about an hour). But my plans are in the build log. The last few pages. Feel free to follow along with it if you want.


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## quietfly

the things is you'd need an ap written to separate out the sound portion of the HDMI but if you can write the ap your self your half way there. I was toying with a Xoom based ICE system, however there are just not enough apps written. I'm mostlikely going IPAD for this now because of the plethora of hardware and software available, for audio and ODB2 monitoring.....


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## Heide264

quietfly said:


> the things is you'd need an ap written to separate out the sound portion of the HDMI but if you can write the ap your self your half way there. I was toying with a Xoom based ICE system, however there are just not enough apps written. I'm mostlikely going IPAD for this now because of the plethora of hardware and software available, for audio and ODB2 monitoring.....


I was actually looking at the dock for the 7" Galaxy Tab - they have a 3.5mm speaker out. I may have to suffice for that. I am thinking of putting the dock sideways on a hing so it could be 'snapped' in at the top and then popped out so I can remove it easily. Kind of like a cabinet door held with those old 'push to release' magnets.

I think I am out on my own for the OBD2 software. I would like to use my Subaru/EVO specific one that I use to tune my car with. The open source software is already done in java though, so it may not be as bad.


scooter - keeping an eye on the build!


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## eviling

if i were gonna use a tablet for a carputer, i would do an asus transformer, or if you wanan really go wild, the asus eeeslate is where its at, its a full featured verstion of windows 7, with 4 gbs of ram and 64 msata ssd, upgradable, currentloy the biggest msata ssd is about 128 gb, you can also plug in a USB in any format to this unit if your ok with cables hanging out.+


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834220961


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## Heide264

Thanks for the suggestion. I am ideally going to stick with android - I really have grown to like the interface.

Just as an update, I'm putting the android tablet on the shelf for a short period. Just put on a slew of performance/suspension mods to my car to enjoy them a bit before the cold season comes around. I am going to spend a while doing the stereo planning and such come the cold season.

First step in my plan is to get the audio system under control from the ms-8 and out. This allows me to 'prototype' out the tablet by using a car mount before actually integrating it into the center console. Also, it gives some more time for some additional 7" tablets to come around the corner for a better selection (and lower prices).

I liked the cdrom drive hack somebody did. I was thinking something along those lines, with a simple head unit or audio source of sorts behind it for when I didn't have the tablet for whatever reason.

Will continue to update it with my progress. Any suggestions you guys have, keep them coming.


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## firechicken

You could go with the tmobile g-slate. Its 4g 8.9in. Records 3d HD Video runs 3.1 honeycomb Android


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## Primergy

Hi, I have something veery alike on my mind and would like to suggest one more component:

The audio quality of those mass market tablets & smartphones often sucks balls!
(I am an in-house HiFi nut, car is somewhat new territory)

If you have the option for a USB output, go with a USB DAC.
The *NuForce Icon uDAC2* would be a great choice.

- Really small - should fit any dash somewhere.
- Touch-feel volume knob instead of some sliders etc. on a touchscreen
- 2V out, just hook it up to an amp etc.
- Sole function is an external soundcard with decent components.
- Driver issues? Works with just about any OS (ASIO4ALL USB audio driver)
- USB powered
- Stereo Only with this one.

I will follow this thread closely as I also have to make an Android decision.


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## masswork

That's the question...
Can android use external USB sound card?


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## quickaudi07

masswork said:


> That's the question...
> Can android use external USB sound card?


No way, it wouldn't work at all, but guys i was really looking int o car pc

Mp3car.com: Your #1 source for Car computing, mobile vehicle technology & software development

I just want to share some though with you all really quick before i forget.

I have a Kenwood DNX 9140 at this moment, love the unit, and i was thinking of doing little upgrade after i finish my full Active setup with Morel speakers ....


Well anyway, I was thinking of doing pc in my car, few things came to my head, one is Thin-client which i used before and they are very nice, 2 is Asus makes a nice Asus EEEbox pc which is almost the same as Thin-client in size!
or build my own pc. I only got room for 8" LCD touch screen... 

I have also found Android HU units DD din's 
I cant find the damn link now, I will posted that info in the morning.


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## 2wheelie

I've started accumulating parts for my build:

64GB iPad WiFi + 3G
iPad dock
StarQuest A/D converter (optical from dock to bitone.1)
12v USB power supply
Various cable/interconnects 

The plan is to replace my VW factory nav with the iPad and use the bitone.1 DRC for volume and tone control. So far, the GPS app on the ipad is better, pandora is better than my sirrius and I can play video and have internet. The only thing I'm loosing at the moment is bluetooth but a solution is in the works.


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## Haase

quickaudi07 said:


> No way, it wouldn't work at all, but guys i was really looking int o car pc...


Why are you so quick to say that it would not work?

My tablet (Motorola Xoom 32GB WIFI) supports USB Hosting. I have yet to find a case where someone uses the USB port to send an audio signal to a DAC....But I can't see why it wouldn't work. Root access may be necessary to debug...But maybe not. 

For example, the docking station accessory uses the USB port to pull audio from the tablet and sends it to a 3.5mm jack in the backside of the dock.


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## spl152db

a dell streak 5 supports usb hosting. people have used usb devices on it. so yea. it could be done. but F Their F ing proprietary Fing plug!


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## kelrog

Ice Cream Sandwich (next android OS) will have USB hosting built in. We'll start seeing devices for it later this year hopefully.


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## phryed

uhm, you're going to need an android software driver.


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## jimmydean

I was going to use a Nook Color rooted, but now I am looking at the Amazon Fire and the hardware spec is pretty nice. 

My main functions are audio/video/nav/security/air ride controls from the tablet, might be tethered to my phone if needed. But I'm still a ways out, still haven't build my back half yet.


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## khanhfat

You can PM bmwproboi05 to get more info in this one, he has Asus 10" tablet running digital out to bit one and he really like them. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-member-build-logs/89178-2006-pwp-tsx-build.html


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## t3sn4f2

IF a tablet outputs audio over an HDMI port from the media app that will be used in the car, then all you need is an "HDMI to S/PDIF extractor". Many manufacturers make these products. Gefen, Startech, Kramer Electronics, etc. And if using a newer gen iDevice, you can get an HDMI out with an "Apple Digital AV Adapter". You can also get an S/PDIF output from one of many Apple approved digital iDevice docks. I use a "Pure i-20" dock.

Going the USB to USB soundcard route is a little more complicated and unpredictable since there isn't an interface standardization between devices like there is for HDMI. IE a USB port doesn't mean that a or any USB soundcard will work.


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## masswork

Reason why USB sound card is that easier to create processor within the android itself. All Java stuff.
Hopefully the 1Ghz processor capable to do the job.

If we go with HDMI route, then the audio processor will be located externally. 
Unless someone make HDMI 8 digital channel to 8 channel analog converter.


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## t3sn4f2

2wheelie said:


> I've started accumulating parts for my build:
> 
> 64GB iPad WiFi + 3G
> iPad dock
> StarQuest A/D converter (optical from dock to bitone.1)
> 12v USB power supply
> Various cable/interconnects
> 
> The plan is to replace my VW factory nav with the iPad and use the bitone.1 DRC for volume and tone control. So far, the GPS app on the ipad is better, pandora is better than my sirrius and I can play video and have internet. The only thing I'm loosing at the moment is bluetooth but a solution is in the works.


I would not go this route if I were you. You can use an Apple Digital AV adapter's digital HDMI output into an "HDMI to S/PDIF Toslink extractor" with the appopriate DC to DC regulated converter. This will give you a digital interface all the way to the bitone.


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## t3sn4f2

masswork said:


> Reason why USB sound card is that easier to create processor within the android itself. All Java stuff.
> Hopefully the 1Ghz processor capable to do the job.
> 
> If we go with HDMI route, then the audio processor will be located externally.
> Unless someone make HDMI 8 digital channel to 8 channel analog converter.


Maybe I missed it but I though the thread dropped the idea of doing the audio processing on the tablet itself.


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## scooter99

I don't know but someone should email Audison and tell them! That would be great! They could even incorporate a couple of HDMI outs for video on it as well! Course it'll be a 1200.00 processor, but what the hell right!?!


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## guisar

I posted a full up system based on an android tablet and MS-8 in the install questions forum. I think it should work out great. Many current tablets are capable of USB host mode so an FiiO E7 or similar will provide a very high quality DAC and RCA outs. Most open source ROMs for tablets (Cyanomod and so on) have a DSP manager built in though with a MS-8 I can't imagine such a thing would be necessary. 



Heide264 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I picked up a 2011 STi 5-door in March, and if you weren't aware, the sound system in them is garbage from the factory. .


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## guisar

jimmydean said:


> I was going to use a Nook Color rooted, but now I am looking at the Amazon Fire and the hardware spec is pretty nice.
> 
> My main functions are audio/video/nav/security/air ride controls from the tablet, might be tethered to my phone if needed. But I'm still a ways out, still haven't build my back half yet.


A nook (which is rooted) will likely work as well or better than the fire. If you want bluetooth, etc better to go with a Lenovo A1. It has a better processor, GPS and so on.


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## guisar

quickaudi07 said:


> No way, it wouldn't work at all, but guys i was really looking int o car pc


You are incorrect. I have a Nook driving a FiiO E7 and it works fantastically- lots of gain, clear as a bell DAC and so on. Can't recommend it highly enough for anyone with either an AOSP ROM or Honeycomb (which is most everything) that supports USB host mode.


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## 2wheelie

t3sn4f2 said:


> I would not go this route if I were you. You can use an Apple Digital AV adapter's digital HDMI output into an "HDMI to S/PDIF Toslink extractor" with the appopriate DC to DC regulated converter. This will give you a digital interface all the way to the bitone.


I actually scrapped the ipad plan. saving up for the Samsung xe700 :thumbsup:


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## ChiTownSQ

Word!!!

iPad in Car - Scosche Dash Kit for iPad - YouTube


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## mitchyz250f

I just received an email from Kevin Halverson, Cheif Technolies Officer of High Resolution Technologies. In April they will release a very HIGH performance external DAC that will bypass the internal DAC's of all the Samsung Tab's. It will have two RCA outputs so that you can connect your JBL-MS8. This should allow for truely great sounding music (and movies) with 7.1 surround sound. In my case 5.1. That is what I plan to do. 

The unit will likely sell for $199. All there products have received great reviews.

High Resolution Technologies : Products


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## bbfoto

mitchyz250f said:


> I just received an email from Kevin Halverson, Cheif Technolies Officer of High Resolution Technologies. In April they will release a very HIGH performance external DAC that will bypass the internal DAC's of all the Samsung Tab's. It will have two RCA outputs so that you can connect your JBL-MS8. This should allow for truely great sounding music (and movies) with 7.1 surround sound. In my case 5.1. That is what I plan to do.
> 
> The unit will likely sell for $199. All there products have received great reviews.
> 
> High Resolution Technologies : Products


Sounds great. But will this unit also have a coaxial & optical (Toslink) S/PDIF digital output? This would be ideal so that it can easily interface with nearly ALL of the current car audio DSP/Processors on the market...Audison BitOne.1, Helix P/C-DSP, Mosconi 6-to8, Alpine PXA-H800, JBL MS-8, etc. This would give it A LOT more flexibility for home audio integration as well.

If a digital output option isn't planned, I would PLEAD with Kevin Halverson ASAP to include this! 

Hmm...I guess it must have digital output in order to get a 5.1 signal out it, unless it has a ton of RCA's or an HDMI output.


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## asawendo

Very interesting, I will try it! 

Thanks for the info Bro


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## mitchyz250f

BBfoto:
Take a look at the unit they make for the iPod, it will be almost identical. It is also the unit that most of the high end SQ iPod installs are using.
High Resolution Technologies : iStreamer

Limited Specs can be found here:
http://www.highresolutiontechnologies.com/pdf/HRT-iStreamer.pdf

The only reason I know Kevin is because I have been pestering him for the last 9 months regarding the release date. I have no influence on product specifications and I have 9 months of data to prove it.

The JBL MS-8 only has RCA low level inputs, so if the digital is important to you, this may not be the right unit for you.

I have looked around quite a bit and have not found another alternative.


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## t3sn4f2

mitchyz250f said:


> I just received an email from Kevin Halverson, Cheif Technolies Officer of High Resolution Technologies. In April they will release a very HIGH performance external DAC that will bypass the internal DAC's of all the Samsung Tab's. It will have two RCA outputs so that you can connect your JBL-MS8. This should allow for truely great sounding music (and movies) with 7.1 surround sound. In my case 5.1. That is what I plan to do.
> 
> The unit will likely sell for $199. All there products have received great reviews.
> 
> High Resolution Technologies : Products


I'd wait for the DIY ODAC to come out. It will be about half the price, have two volts instead of 1.4 (good for the ms-8's unity gain), have a dynamic range of 111dB versus 103db of the head streamer (over all a higher (ENOB which is essential if you want to play high resolution tracks via special tablet apps, and lower background noise at the source which is also important, and it will be buss powered as well and use the same base usb drivers.

"""ODA + ODAC: What’s an “ODAC”? It’s a USB DAC designed the objective way—just like the O2 and ODA. It fits inside the ODA turning it into a desktop headphone DAC. Here’s some preliminary information:

High Resolution USB – Relatively few reasonably priced commercial DACs, and almost no DIY DACs, support anything beyond 16 bits at 44 or 48 Khz over USB (despite most having 24/192 DAC chips). The problem is, until recently, there were no suitable options for high-resolution audio over USB without needing special drivers or spending lots of money. The ODAC will support up to 24/96 over USB. 
111+ dB Documented Dynamic Range – The most dynamic range you can get from a DAC operating in 16 bit mode is around 96 dB with most falling several dB short of that. While that can be enough if you control the volume in the analog domain somewhere after the DAC, it’s often not enough if you want to control the volume at your PC in the digital domain. That’s where those extra high resolution bits show their stuff. Even with the PC volume turned down, you can still get 16+ bits worth of resolution and dynamic range. That can mean the difference between hearing noise or pure silence in your headphones. And, unlike nearly every other DAC out there, the Dynamic Range of the ODA will be fully documented. Many DACs just quote the spec for the chip off the datasheet which is usually nowhere near the entire DAC’s actual performance. See the Tech Section for a preview. 
USB Audio Class 1 Compliant – Unlike most pro-audio interfaces that support 24/96, the ODAC requires no problematic proprietary drivers for XP, Vista, Windows 7, OS X or Linux. It’s true Plug-And-Play. It also does not require UAC2 drivers, like some DACs, which are not provided in any current version of Windows. 
ODAC vs DAC1 – I’ve done some preliminary blind testing against my $1600 Benchmark DAC1 Pre with a variety of music and my best headphones, and so far, a least two different people cannot tell them apart. The DAC1 Pre has won a lot of professional accolades for being one of the better DACs money can buy at any price. I can see a formal ODAC NwAvGuy blind listening challenge coming up. 
Redbook Compliant Output – For many reasons, it’s good to have a DAC that complies with the Redbook standard for digital audio output levels. Many USB DACs, like the AMB gamma, can’t produce the required 2 volts RMS of output and suffer lower dynamic range. And some go way over the specification which risks overloading the inputs of a lot of equipment. The ODAC is Redbook compliant. Among other benefits, this makes it much easier to do level matched A/B comparisons with other DACs and digital sources that are also Redbook compliant. 
Pre-Assembled Board – Because USB and DAC chips are typically fine pitch surface mount devices they’re not very DIY friendly. To make matters worse, if you want 24 bits over USB with native Windows drivers, I’m not aware of any suitable chips that are available to DIYers. All the current solutions require licensing and/or some sort of contractual agreement. They’re not stocked by DigiKey, Mouser, Farnell, etc. And to further complicate things, they also require custom programming before they will operate correctly. That’s 3 strikes against DIY for high resolution USB DACs. The obvious solution was finding someone to co-develop the board with and handle all the contractual, assembly, programming and financial details so they could offer a pre-assembled board. 
Line Input Retained – The ODAC won’t defeat the line input on the ODA. You can use both sources or even plug another Redbook compliant DAC in for direct A/B comparisons (even better if a friend does the switching out of the listener’s sight!). 
Standalone Capable – The ODAC is designed so it’s also usable by itself for other applications while operating entirely from USB power. No ODA required.""""


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## bbfoto

mitchyz250f,

Thanks for all the info. I'm familiar with the iStreamer and was hoping that it would have digital outs when it was released, but no luck. And I should have worded my statement differently, as I realize the MS-8 only has analog inputs...I was just trying to list all of the popular car audio Processors that the new HRT unit "could" work with (in addition to the MS-8) if it had digital outputs as well.

t3sn4f2, thanks for all the info on that ODAC...looks like they are really trying to address most of the issues with current USB DACs.  As a side note, I wish that DACs via USB were not limited to 24/96, even though there's a slim chance I could hear the difference anyway, LOL. My hearing rolls off at ~16kHz and tinnitus doesn't help...too many years as a drummer with no ear protection.


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## mitchyz250f

t3sn4f2-All that you wrote sounds great, I just wished I had paid more attention in EE101 when I had the chance, rather than repeating it and then passing with a 78%. .


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## nubz69

I have been thinking about this for a while now. The only way I see this being worthwhile would be if you could get a SPDIF signal from your tablet. The biggest problem you run into is that there are no USB audio cards that are guaranteed to work with Android. So unless you are willing to try a bunch of different usb devices to see if any of them work, you are stuck. 

One way I believe you could get around this is with the android adk kit or possibly the ioio kit. Android Open Accessory Development Kit | Android Developers IOIO for Android - SparkFun Electronics 
The only reason I haven't tried them is that my tablet has not been rooted by anyone yet so you can't really do any custom work with it. I am sure you could build a simple spdif output using these boards with just a little skill. 

BTW my Sony tablet has USB hosting with honeycomb, I am not sure this is true with all tablets.


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## t3sn4f2

nubz69 said:


> I have been thinking about this for a while now. The only way I see this being worthwhile would be if you could get a SPDIF signal from your tablet. The biggest problem you run into is that there are no USB audio cards that are guaranteed to work with Android. So unless you are willing to try a bunch of different usb devices to see if any of them work, you are stuck.
> 
> One way I believe you could get around this is with the android adk kit or possibly the ioio kit. Android Open Accessory Development Kit | Android Developers IOIO for Android - SparkFun Electronics
> The only reason I haven't tried them is that my tablet has not been rooted by anyone yet so you can't really do any custom work with it. I am sure you could build a simple spdif output using these boards with just a little skill.
> 
> BTW my Sony tablet has USB hosting with honeycomb, I am not sure this is true with all tablets.


It's easy as pie if said tablet outputs audio out the HDMI port while using the chosen media app. "Startech HDMI to DVI+S/PDIF extractor".


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## noyztoyz

android in car sounds nice


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