# Could I have a "Serial Killer" Subwoofer? Its killed 3 so far!



## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

So far, 2 Mark Anthony's and 1 prototype Zuki amp have fallen to my sound system. With the Marks, it was during a certain trance song, a _slow mix_ version of "As the Rush Comes", by Motorcycle. About 3 minutes into the song, there is a powerful buildup and release, and much like an explosion, the sub reproduces extremely low notes.

The sub then moves to its near extremes, but hey, its a friggin' Eclipse LMT, its excursion ability is in the 1.5" range one-way within linear movement! At any rate, exactly at that point in the song, the first Mark went "click" and the music stopped. O'stock replaced it, and I decided to press my luck and try the song again. SAME! They both went into perma-protect, and they were dead. I played this song also on the Zuki amp, but played it very low, because of my fear that the song was capable of destroying amps. Then, at a moderate volume, I was setting my low frequency range with the 3sixty.2 and the Zuki, and on a low wave test it blew one of the fuses that powers it (it is a dual power supply design, like two separate amps in one small box). I replaced the fuse, but it blew instantly again. I feel that these deaths have a lot of consistency to them. In all cases, the Eclipse sub was moving quite a bit. 

Could the sub be running into a point where it goes dead-short, killing off any power supply that is playing it? Is this something that you have heard of or had happen to you? The sub itself is great in sound quality and power, and other then these very unfortunate circumstances, I love it. Of course, we can't keep blowing up amps, especially priceless prototypes. I have an ICEpower Pioneer Premier amp on its way, should be here monday. I'm worried, naturally, that I'll blow that amp up too. However, I've heard nothing but good things about the ICEpower's natural stability and protection circuitry, so in theory it should handle a lot of abuse with no failure. Plus, the Premier's output @ 4 ohms is 600WRMS, which is right in line with the Eclipse's RMS maximums, so they are evenly matched. 

Specs for the Eclipse:
SW8000
10"
4 ohm nominal
DCR is near 3.3 ohms (this is unusal, but I'm unsure of how an LMT behaves)
625WRMS Nominal musical, 1600W Peak
X-max) 30.5 mm one-way
Fs) 16hz
Qes) .452
Qms) 3.245
Qts) .397

Any ideas, gentlemen? Is the SW8000 I have a serial killer?

EDIT: Found a copy of the song on You Tube! Now you guys can kill your amps too! LOL. It only kills my car system, my home theater and my earphones, and my iTunes w/ the computer and it's Altecs are all happy still. Here's the link. Great song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw8ammZueg8 

I can now discuss the Zuki amp, if you have questions.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

No answer for you, but would be interested to find out what causes your problem. Where exactly is it happening?


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

id try the same song/s waves, wirh a different sub with similar specks.

if you can play the songs/tones without problem with a different sub (or several subs) im guessing your right, and your subs coils do something wierd when they get hot or excurt a lot.


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## Gmack (Jan 29, 2007)

no clue for you, but nice track!!!

Gary


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## kappa546 (Apr 11, 2005)

i would first look at your gain setting. that lmt eclipse is horribly inefficient and my guess is you're clipping the amps to get the output you want. theres nothing a perfectly good sub could do to burn your amps.


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## Spasticteapot (Mar 5, 2007)

Connect it in series with a resistor - if only a small one and measure the impeadance while playing that particular song.


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

do you have a friend that has a well respected and easily warrantied amp that you could borrow? ie a jl 1000/1 purcahsed authorized locally with a warranty? if you were local to me id let you borrow my MTX 1501D since it still has 2 years on its warranty. just a thought.


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

someone should go delete all their posts warning people about the mark anthony amps


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

internecine said:


> someone should go delete all their posts warning people about the mark anthony amps


Well, it definetely does not appear to be the amps that are the problem.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Are you bridging the amp? Is the VC rather inductive, Know the LE? what's the impedance curve of the driver in the passband look like?

Chad


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

kappa546 said:


> i would first look at your gain setting. that lmt eclipse is horribly inefficient and my guess is you're clipping the amps to get the output you want. theres nothing a perfectly good sub could do to burn your amps.


Agreed. Very inefficient speaker, only a few hundred watts to play with, so it's likely you're clipping. Use an O-scope next time if you can gain access to one.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Whatcha gonna do with the o-scope? It won't show clipping with music unless you have a storage scope and it's cliping BAD. If you tune with tones it will be innacurate and you will sell yourself short because the amp will make more power before clipping with music than with tones that have a 100% duty cycle.

Clipping really does not kill amps, in fact eh amp section is running it's most efficinet at cliping!

It sounds as if on amp #1 and 2 the amp section went. #3 is cracking fuses, probably power supply.

Chad


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## Sr SQ (Dec 8, 2006)

Just a thought (I know this is where all my troubles begin LOL) but can a speaker not be over-driven to the point that it builds such a large resistance that the amp cant handle the load?
Ok tell me to shut up now


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## POLKAT (Jan 10, 2007)

I could be wrong, but I don't think you could ever blow an amp because the impedance load of the speaker (resistance) was too high.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

If it's a tube amp  You could (in theory) tear up the output transformers 

But yeah, you are correct.

chad


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Ok, there's LOTS of information going on here, so let me try to give the answers to the questions given:

Chad, the sub has a very poor spec sheet, I'll dig around for it and see if I can give you all the answers. 

internecine, you are right, I'll post that information immediately. It is odd and bad of the design, though, that it won't pop its fuses before failure. I would probably suggest swapping the (3) 30 Amp fuses in the amplifier to something a little less, because of this. 

The Zuki amp popped its fuse, but we noticed that it didn't do it fast enough. When I asked Patrick (Zuki Audio) what and why this happened, we dug deep into the problem, all the way down to the type of wire I used (normal Monster XPHP installation wire) and we found that the primary transformer got so hot that the the epoxy insulation on the windings started to burn away near the board mounting area, _THEN_ the fuse popped. So it appears that the severe load placed on the equipment is near instantaneous, like a switch. So fast was the damage that the fuse didn't even pop on the over-fused Mark Anthonys, and the Zuki which is normally fused died while popping its fuse. So, it has to be a very quick, very immediate problem. The Zuki, for instance, is so strongly built that it will try to play into an extremely low load, with no real problem. It was designed to do this, because some speakers have crazy impedance curves, to say the least.

What's really wild here is that the Mark Anthony, rated at near 450WRMS into a 4ohm bridged load, should push that sub around with no clipping at all. I know what distortion sounds like, and every time I brought the power on, there was none audible. CLEAN, powerful, and very musical. Keep in mind I have the sub in a correct sized box (.707), so the mechanical power handling is lower then what they prescribe.

Well, the Premier amp comes in Monday, I'll run fresh wire (just in case), and watch it closely. No more playing that killer song, either. I love this sub, and I don't want to see it go. If it has to go, I have to run at least a pair of subs just to make up for its capabilities. Have you guys seen what it can do on an FR plot? Behaves like an 18", just amazing. 

I'm off to find the spec book.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

you can borrow my orion 2500d if you want ([email protected])



but you have to paypal me $800 first. 


and you dont get it back if you smoke my amp.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

chad said:


> Whatcha gonna do with the o-scope? It won't show clipping with music unless you have a storage scope and it's cliping BAD. If you tune with tones it will be innacurate and you will sell yourself short because the amp will make more power before clipping with music than with tones that have a 100% duty cycle.
> 
> Clipping really does not kill amps, in fact eh amp section is running it's most efficinet at cliping!
> 
> ...


Well, if anything, using test tones (and thus selling himself short) will give him a safety net. Sounds like he's using media that's pretty rough on subs, anyway. Woofer Cooker Pt II anyone? 

fourthmeal, if the tone in that song really is as low as you claim, hearing distortion in it will be extremely difficult. For instance, when I set gains by ear for subs, I actually play a tone in the 300 Hz range since it's easier to for my ear to perceive distortion.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

<shrugs> Don't know about the song, thats why I placed a link to it so you can hear for yourself. It happens around 2:40 into it or so. At any rate, I've owned lots of other sub/amp combos that DIDN'T end up keeling over during this song (its one of my favorites), so there's something about this one that is strange. 

You know, I didn't think about it, but this sub has a QCA (Quick Change Assembly), what I can do is pull it apart, and see if any foreign object is in the field, and take pics of it to see if you guys can spot damage. 

Oh, I did find the owner's manual. I'm going to read off the specs here, exactly as they are stated in the manual:
*Features*
Speaker Size - 10"
Nominal Imp. - 4 Ohms
Voice Coil DCR - 3 Ohms
RMS Power Cont.- 625W
RMS Power Int. Peak - 1900W
Freq. Resp. - 16Hz - 3.5kHz
Driver Material - Solid Aluminum
Driver's Edge Mat. - Foam
Voice Coil Motor Structure Former - 4 Layer Aluminum, on Aluminum Former
Motor Damper Material - Lo-Starch Nomex
Magnet Weight - >200 oz.
Voice Coil Diameter - 3" Compound Linear

*Parameters*
Fs 16Hz Free Air
Qms 3.245
Qes .452
Qts .40
Vas 3.75 Cu ft. Air Vol. Equiv.
Cms 624u m/N compliance
Mms 150.7 Grams
Rms (BLANK)
Xmax one way 1.2"
Dia 10"
Sd 220 cm squared
Re 3.0 ohms
BL 10.1 T*M
1-watt spl 84dB

Thats all I see. Does this help?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

It was a snap to pull the sub apart. I did it in about 3 minutes. I didn't see any foreign material in the magnet gap, and from the pics here I can't see any damage done to the coil, can you?


































This is the excursion limits I found mechanically, by pushing and pulling on the voice coil. Worth mentioning that I've never seen it move that much during play.

















hope this helps a bit. I'm eager to find the cause of the problem. It really sucks to build a system around an amp, only to have it *poof*, forcing you to redo 1/2 the system.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

It probably doesn't matter, but that voice coil doesn't look wound very good.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Keep in mind that it is an LMT motor. So, the thickness of the windings are different in certain areas of the coil, different then a normal design. That is a design characteristic of the LMT motor.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

fourthmeal said:


> Keep in mind that it is an LMT motor. So, the thickness of the windings are different in certain areas of the coil, different then a normal design. That is a design characteristic of the LMT motor.


Ok, that makes sense. I've never seen the voice coil of one before.


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## unpredictableacts (Aug 16, 2006)

kind off subject but does TC still build those bigger eclipse woofers?


also what is your charging system consist off? are you dropping below 12 volts in the playing of that part of the song?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Good question, don't know. Its stock.
The battery terminal has a Streetwires fused terminal on it, (the one where the fuse is built into the terminal itself, so I don't need a fuse near the battery), then I've got 4 gauge run through the car to the one amp. 

What's the curiosity?? If it dipped below 12, what would happen? In my experience, an amp with too little voltage available would shut down until said voltage was available again...


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

well, if the voltage dropped the amp would try to pull more current to keep making the same power.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

...if it were a PWM amplifier. Which these all weren't.

They are unregulated.

That said, is it possible for it to pull so much current that it fails before popping the protective fuses?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

89grand said:


> Ok, that makes sense. I've never seen the voice coil of one before.



No ****, Me either!


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

oh no, an eclispe sw8000...
well, time to rebuild your sub. Don't ask me to explain why, because honestly, I can't. It's a side effect of those LMT eclipse subs. Sometimes those monstrous VC's from eclipse will just kill amplifiers.

If you hook up an amp with clipping protection, you'll notice it kick on everytime.

Seen it with homes amps, and car amps. Each time, we got a new vc, slapped it in, and no problem.

I saw a sw8000 series woofer put a us2000 into protection. Sent the amp in, and found it we had been clipping it. Us amps rep was as confused as we were. (the amp could put out WAY more then the rated max power on the sub)

On certain passages, the VC would pull almost an infinite current from the amp.

Almost put money down, that if you swap the sub, all those amps would perform fine.


by the way, I'm not an adire fan, but most LMT sub fans, have really liked the xbl2 stuff. Just in case you decide to get something else, instead of rebuilding it.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

backwoods said:


> On certain passages, the VC would pull almost an infinite current from the amp.



That is egg-zachary why I was asking about if there was a posted impedance curve 


Chad


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

chad said:


> That is egg-zachary why I was asking about if there was a posted impedance curve
> 
> 
> Chad


I just figured I would save you the time.  

Honestly though, it would be great if someone could test the sub and figure out the final culprit. I have some theories as to what it was and all of them seemed to be a side effect of LMT, but, I'm sure some of you guys are alot more capable in theory then I am.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

When I first saw that coil I knew something wasn't right. I'm SURE the problem is with the sub. YOU DO have a serial killer sub. Maybe Eclipse engineers should be brought up on charges.  I would seriously put that sub into retirement. It's the ONE constant variable when every one of the amps failed. And to think for a few minutes I was thinking about trying one of those out after you raved about the output. I'll stick to my IDQ15.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Think about this for a second. Maybe the engineers never perfected the LMT technology. They knew it wasn't ready but were pressured to release the product. So they make the subs rebuildable since they know they'll all fail with continued use. Just a thought.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> That is egg-zachary why I was asking about if there was a posted impedance curve
> 
> 
> Chad


i didnt understand what you meant if you want me and other non fancy chpancy audio freaks to understand you , you gotta speak in regular laymans terms. no hinting @ things , 


spell it out for us man.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Some speakers post an impedance curve graph, just like an FR plot, etc.

An impedance curve is the plot of the drivers impedance on the y axis and the operating frequency on the X axis.

Chad


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Wow. 

Thanks, Eclipse! Do you want to refund me 3 amps worth? Cuz now I'm pissed. 

The infinite current thing sounds EXACTLY like whats going on. As if the impedance drops to .25 or something, at the farthest excursions. Sonofabitch! Well, I can't sell it to any one of you guys, cuz you all know its a killer. Its like selling a puppy dog that has maimed 3 children. 

A thought: will the Pioneer Premier PRS-D2000T that is coming in tomorrow morning stand a better chance? It runs 600W @ 4 ohms, bridged. It uses ICEpower technology, which I've heard has a lot of fail-safes and protection circuits onboard.

I did email Eclipse about the problem, and posed the question "what are you going to do about it?" to them. Honestly, my expectations are that they either replace the sub with one that won't do this, or they repay me for the amps (which won't happen, but hey I can dream). Since I didn't buy it from an authorized retailer (eBay FTW), I may be screwed entirely, but it was sealed, new, with all the right packaging and materials, so maybe I can call it a gift? 

What the hell should I do?


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

I bet at certain frequencies(that one in the motorcycle track) the impedance is WELL below the capabilities of all the amps Fourthmeal has fried. It's gotta be REAL low if it's putting a UsAmps into protection. Someone has to test that sub on a CROWN Pro amp or something comparable thats capable of stupid low impedances. And more importantly not being run on a vehicles 12 volt electrical system where the steam will eventually run out.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

fourthmeal said:


> What the hell should I do?


Call TC Sounds tomorrow and run what happened by Thilo or Kyle.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> Some speakers post an impedance curve graph, just like an FR plot, etc.
> 
> An impedance curve is the plot of the drivers impedance on the y axis and the operating frequency on the X axis.
> 
> Chad



^ might as well be written in greek.

think regular jo with no colledge edjucation but loves music.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

lukeboa said:


> ^ might as well be written in greek.
> 
> think regular jo with no colledge edjucation but loves music.


He's talking about a graph that shows the impedance in relation to frequency. In other words, all speakers impedance fluctuates with music, at some frequencies the speaker's impedance rises, at other frequencies it dips lower. It's never constant.

Now if the Eclipse sub had an accurate impedance graph, you might see it dip very low at any given frequency which could give insight as to what the problem is.

Like this:


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

can it be discovered using those T/S specs I published a few posts back in this thread?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

fourthmeal said:


> can it be discovered using those T/S specs I published a few posts back in this thread?


To be honest here, and I'm only speculating, but I don't think factory specs would show the real problem. It seems as though the sub has gone bananas and is not within factory specs anymore.


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## Bluto Blutarsky (Apr 1, 2007)

Some of you may remember me as "****tard". Taking this into consideration of course, I think you have a speaker problem.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Bluto Blutarsky said:


> Some of you may remember me as "****tard". Taking this into consideration of course, I think you have a speaker problem.



****tard was your screen name?

BTW, I think it's petty much been narrowed down already to a subwoofer problem.


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## Bluto Blutarsky (Apr 1, 2007)

89grand said:


> ****tard was your screen name?
> 
> BTW, I think it's petty much been narrowed down already to a subwoofer problem.


BTW, Thanks for taking this matter so seriously and setting me straight.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I haven't had any issues with my sw8200. It could be that (as others have suggested) the sub's impedance dips below what the amp can reliably handle... or perhaps the leads are shorting against the cone?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Interesting. I recall saying it was a woofer problem way back in the thread about the MAs. Hmm.....


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Bluto Blutarsky said:


> Some of you may remember me as "****tard". Taking this into consideration of course, I think you have a speaker problem.


Damn that was funny, Well Done!



quality_sound said:


> Interesting. I recall saying it was a woofer problem way back in the thread about the MAs. Hmm.....


Tee-Hee-hee


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

npdang said:


> I haven't had any issues with my sw8200. It could be that (as others have suggested) the sub's impedance dips below what the amp can reliably handle... or perhaps the leads are shorting against the cone?



Everytime I swapped the vc, the problem would go away. Seems it was a side effect of those monstrous VC's. 

by the way, just in case anyone was interested in a brief explanation of what an LMT driver is, and why the VC is wound so peculiar, here is a good explanation from Mr. Wiggins.



> Now the LMT design. This design is based on the standard overhung motor, but with a few extra layers of turns right in the middle and at the ends. The idea is that the extra turns increase the integration of the stray flux outside the gaps, so that you end up raising the "ends" of the BL curve. Like this:
> 
> http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/Dan/LMTMotor.gif
> 
> ...


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

it was the allure of a super deep reaching frequency response that drove me to buying it. I had no idea it was killing my equipment. Thats a new one to me.


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

npdang, would a Klippel test show the problem if it was with the sub?


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I don't really know?


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

I would think like chad mentioned, an impedance curve would show the problem.

Or, just throw an overbuilt crown amp on it, and watch for clipping lights.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I put the Eclipse sub back together, and decided to press my luck and try it out on the new Premier amp I just got today. After a pretty heavy test session, with the sub really moving quite a bit, the Premier came through no sweat at all. It was barely warm!

I'm hoping that the advanced technology in the Premier amp keeps it alive should the sub really be the one to fault.


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

Did you try calling TC and asking them?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Eclipse technical support contacted me via email, we are talking about it back and forth.


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

if its creating a dead short, wouldn't you think it may damage your new amp as well?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

It hasn't yet!


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## jperryss (Mar 15, 2006)

fourthmeal said:


> I put the Eclipse sub back together, and decided to press my luck and try it out on the new Premier amp I just got today. After a pretty heavy test session, with the sub really moving quite a bit, the Premier came through no sweat at all. It was barely warm!
> 
> I'm hoping that the advanced technology in the Premier amp keeps it alive should the sub really be the one to fault.


I hate to say this, but why are you now running your FOURTH AMP through this sub, after frying the first three and after everyone here told you that all signs point to the sub being the problem?

Nothing personal, but it drives me nuts when people ask for advice on something, then they run and do the exact opposite. If that Premier amp dies on you, you deserve it.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

simply because I tore the sub apart, inspected the whole thing, and I couldn't find anything wrong with it. I put it back together, and decided to lean a little on the nature of an ICEpower amp. It has tons of protective circuits, and I also under-fused it. I'd rather find out now while the return time is still valid! Honestly, I love the sub, so I'd rather see it succeed then have to replace it. What would I replace it with? What sub in this price range reaches as low? I'm all ears for you on that one.


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

I would contact either eclipse or TC for a rebuild kit. Then, you can keep your favorite sub, and not have a problem.

Honestly, you are playing with fire. Hope the best of luck to ya, though. Personally, I find subs cheaper and easier to replace then amplifiers.


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## 02bluesuperroo (Oct 31, 2006)

LOL, I can't believe you're still running this sub, with ANOTHER amp. Are you dense?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

fourthmeal said:


> simply because I tore the sub apart, inspected the whole thing, and I couldn't find anything wrong with it. I put it back together, and decided to lean a little on the nature of an ICEpower amp. It has tons of protective circuits, and I also under-fused it. I'd rather find out now while the return time is still valid! Honestly, I love the sub, so I'd rather see it succeed then have to replace it. What would I replace it with? What sub in this price range reaches as low? I'm all ears for you on that one.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

I just hope Pioneer has the proper protection in place as you say. At least it's the premier line...a few years back we had to pull all Pioneer amps off the shelf and send back to Pioneer because they actually caught fire when bridged. 

Good luck. If it kills this amp don't even think twice about replacing that sub.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I'm working with Patrick at Zuki audio on something prototype anyway. But, I had to have bass, ya know?


Dude, don't call me dense. It is an experiment. I changed some variables, and the control remains the same (the sub), if it fails, then it fails. Eclipse is already working with me over emails. Subs are made to run with amps. This is a 4ohm nominal sub according to Eclipse, and the Pioneer drives 4ohm subwoofer loads. If something is wrong, then it should be evident with the pioneer, which is made to push this thing. It says clearly in the manual that should anything go wrong, the built-in circuitry will protect the amp. The experiement has some safety nets. 


Resorting to name-calling is not the nature of this forum. Thats why a lot of us are here instead of _there_


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)




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## zfactor (Oct 19, 2005)

those ice power amps are actually a bit more prone to issues like this due to them being a bit more sensative in nature.. id be careful imo.. personally id would have ran far from that sub.. and been done with it


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Its in the plan to change the sub. I've got a lot of (non audio related) stuff to take care of.


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

im hoping that it kills this amp too, and its the sub that has a problem. otherwise it means that eclipse made a sub that can only be run with ICE power amps. that would look pretty bad for eclipse. and if the pioneer amp keeps working i would guess because it has better protection circuitry, although i would not want to rely on the amps protection on a daily basis just to keep this sub. protection is there for an emergency, not for every day use.


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## 02bluesuperroo (Oct 31, 2006)

fourthmeal said:


> Resorting to name-calling is not the nature of this forum. Thats why a lot of us are here instead of _there_


I didn't mean to be offensive but this sounds like something someone from _there_ would do, not something a person from _here_ would do.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

fourthmeal said:


> I'm working with Patrick at Zuki audio on something prototype anyway. But, I had to have bass, ya know?
> 
> 
> Dude, don't call me dense. It is an experiment. I changed some variables, and the control remains the same (the sub), if it fails, then it fails. Eclipse is already working with me over emails. Subs are made to run with amps. This is a 4ohm nominal sub according to Eclipse, and the Pioneer drives 4ohm subwoofer loads. If something is wrong, then it should be evident with the pioneer, which is made to push this thing. It says clearly in the manual that should anything go wrong, the built-in circuitry will protect the amp. The experiement has some safety nets.
> ...


It's a two variable equation, and you've changed one variable 4 times. I think you've proved a point (that the sub is an amp killer) but maybe not the point you were trying to prove. How he said it might be a little rude, but the "what" seems to be spot on. 

Juan


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

The system now plays fine with the new Pioneer amp. I did take the sub apart completely, and rebuild it (with the old parts of course), so thats really the only thing different. I saw nothing in there that was out of order. So I doubt I changed anything.

Now, the sub is going away for other reasons, mainly to test some Zuki subs and see if I can get a bit more musicality out of the system. The Eclipse will be used later as a home theater sub, on an amp that can take abuse, if necessary.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

So, here's something interesting:

Eclipse called me, and we talked for a bit. I didn't call them to ask for new amps or anything, I just wanted to know what is up with this thing, and how I can prevent damaging other amps. The answer I got will surprise you, I know it surprised me. The guy said that he's never heard of the amps I used (Mark Antony), and if they were any good, I'd have no problem. He said the amp's protection circuitry should prevent any damage. If the amp doesn't have quality protection circuitry, or _missing _circuitry, then the amp will fail. He said that I should use better amps. At this point, I'm getting a little miffed, so I ask him what happens if my Pioneer Premier ICEpower amp gets killed by this thing, and he says if it has protection circuitry, not to worry, I'll be fine. OK. So then I ask him does he know anything about LMT drivers. He says no. I said that an LMT is a different design then a typical coil, and that the coil had some errors in its shape, even for an LMT. He really didn't reply to that. I asked him if I could install a new QCA (Quick Change Assembly), and he said they don't sell them. HUH? Says right in the manual, purchase a new QCA if the coil fails due to overheating, or external subwoofer damage, like a dented cone. He said there is no part number in existence for such a part. He actually said that the SW8000 doesn't have QCA. I said he's dead wrong. He asked me to hold, and when he came back, he said that yes, they do have QCA, but they don't have a part for the replacement piece. He then proceeded to tell me that the old Aluminum series subs were the predecessor to the SW8000, and that he has 2 Aluminums in his truck, going on 6 years now. I asked him if that was an LMT sub, and of course he said no. I said so then, its completely different. Then, I asked him if he knows TC sounds, and he said yes. I asked if he knew TC sounds built the sub, and he said no. I asked him if TC sounds could provide me a QCA, and he didn't know. I told him thanks, thats about as far as I can take this conversation.

I was disappointed to say the least.

Just after the conversation, I decided to test his theory, and I put in some bass-heavy music, and cranked up the sub to push its limits. I guess he was right, because I ended up giving up before I got too much of a headache from the bass. That M-F'er got loud! The amp and sub were fine.

Lesson learned: Eclipse kinda sucks at giving you answers you want to hear, but the subs are OK (because they come from TC sounds) However, if you run an LMT, make sure the sub has lots o' protection circuits. I suppose thats all there is to this story.


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

I think we all could have predicted the response from Eclipse which is why it was suggested that you talk to TC.  Since I have not heard of another LMT sub doing this, I would be curious what the mfg has to say about it.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

so zukis amp has no protection?

and the other amps this sub killed also had no protecton?

is the idea of protection?,

if 'the power required' to control/excurt sub is too much for the amp to produce, the amp shuts down (instead of clip)?

or am i misunderstanding the protection?

and im also guessing that some companies dont use protection to gain more output or cleaner signal?

but again i might be confused


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Nearly ALL amplifiers have an over current protection scheme.

Chad


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## shovelhd (Apr 8, 2007)

Eclipse does make ICEPower amps, the XA series.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Well I knew going into it that the TC sounds replacement QCA costs twice as much as I paid for the woofer to start with.

A fellow DIY'er here just confirmed that for me. 

Their answer was B.S., which is why I'm not happy with them. I'm just going FI or RE audio next time. or JL.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

Heh, good luck.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

fourthmeal said:


> However, if you run an LMT, make sure the sub has lots o' protection circuits.


Amp rather. Sad story, people don't know what they are selling?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

You will normally know when the amp is in protect... It won't make output!

Few car amps do current limiting/gain capping for protection. Sooo, if you notice the amp kicking off then you are running on the ragged edge.

Amps with PWM output stages are more forgiving on lower impedance loads and will bully around a reactive speaker better.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

agreed chad. I have been ok with this new amp on it. I was so pissed after that call from Eclipse that I punched the system to "11", biasing the bass towards the maximum (to keep the front stage at normal volume, but BLAST the bass), hoping to either fail the sub, or fail the amp, to prove Eclipse wrong. HAHAHA...I could do neither. The amp didn't even get warm, and the sub didn't care either. It was pretty damn incredible. I did however, successfully find all the resonant parts of the car at 20hz-60hz that I should deaden...lol.

After my anger subsided...I realized that this particular combo of amp and sub appears quite safe, and fun as hell. Too bad the sub doesn't have a strong musicality to it. Maybe its an EQ issue at this point. I'll play with it a bit.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

fourthmeal said:


> agreed chad. I have been ok with this new amp on it. I was so pissed after that call from Eclipse that I punched the system to "11", biasing the bass towards the maximum (to keep the front stage at normal volume, but BLAST the bass), hoping to either fail the sub, or fail the amp, to prove Eclipse wrong. HAHAHA...I could do neither. The amp didn't even get warm, and the sub didn't care either. It was pretty damn incredible._I did however, successfully find all the resonant parts of the car at 20hz-60hz that I should deaden...lol.
> _
> After my anger subsided...I realized that this particular combo of amp and sub appears quite safe, and fun as hell. Too bad the sub doesn't have a strong musicality to it. Maybe its an EQ issue at this point. I'll play with it a bit.


thats funny ^


no sq


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

i have NEVER played any subwoofer as loud as that one. I was really trying to destroy something...I had an "OCC" (Orange County Choppers) "lets break something cuz I'm pissed" attitude at that moment. I was soon more amazed then pissed. I can absolutely say I have broken in the suspension on this sub.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

fourthmeal said:


> i have NEVER played any subwoofer as loud as that one. I was really trying to destroy something...I had an "OCC" (Orange County Choppers) "lets break something cuz I'm pissed" attitude at that moment. I was soon more amazed then pissed. I can absolutely say I have broken in the suspension on this sub.



Doesnt that suck when you have full intention on destroying something and you get PWNED?

It's a buzz-kill.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

chad said:


> Doesnt that suck when you have full intention on destroying something and you get PWNED?
> 
> It's a buzz-kill.


It's equally a buz kill when you destroy something when you aren't even trying to.


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## Sephiroth619 (Jun 24, 2005)

fourthmeal said:


> So far, 2 Mark Anthony's and 1 prototype Zuki amp have fallen to my sound system. With the Marks, it was during a certain trance song, a _slow mix_ version of "As the Rush Comes", by Motorcycle. About 3 minutes into the song, there is a powerful buildup and release, and much like an explosion, the sub reproduces extremely low notes.


I was doing a search for Mark Antony amps and stumbled across this thread. After reading this particular post, I decided to download that song by Motorcycle and man am I loving it. You have any other recommended songs similar to it?

I actually prefer the radio version of the song. The one that is three minutes and thirty four seconds.


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## |Tch0rT| (May 7, 2005)

sephiroth619 said:


> After reading this particular post, I decided to download that song by Motorcycle and man am I loving it. You have any other recommended songs similar to it?


Haha I was thinking the same thing. Very nice song. Though not what I usually listen to but I really like it.

Ryan


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

succumb to the world of techno...


Seriously, best thing I ever did for my musical style preferences was this:

Download Station Ripper, a free program. Then, load up in S.R. the Shoutcast list. Then, select "Techno" as the genre. Now, pick the 192kbs stream called "Pure DJ", and stream-download that for several days. Then, burn to cd or ipod those stream-downloads, and listen. 

Repeat as necessary.

I once picked up one called Stargate 009 - Thrillseekers. I swear it is some of the best music I've ever heard, in a continuous mix. Because its free, I'll see if I can provide it to those who care. Its big though...


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

This needs a bump considering the recent discussions about LMT technology.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

fourthmeal said:


> It was a snap to pull the sub apart. I did it in about 3 minutes. I didn't see any foreign material in the magnet gap, and from the pics here I can't see any damage done to the coil, can you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Chad hit the nail on the head ! 
As voltage sagged the current rose and took out the fuse  

Since it has dual power supplies in the design, he only took out the fuse that was powering the subwoofer.

Aaron took out two fuses on an Orion 9002 powering a 12" Audio Avalanche, about a month later the battery an alternator were replaced in his car


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

sub killer


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## trainman0978 (Apr 2, 2008)

Gmack said:


> no clue for you, but nice track!!!
> 
> Gary


I agree , my girl introduced me to this song. I hate the "techno" version, but the slow one, well, I killed one of my two year old alpine type-R 12" subs a few weeks back. Bad ass song though.


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