# Head unit upgrade = better SQ output?



## acprkit (Jul 28, 2011)

I have an Alpine CDA-105 (essentially Alpine's entry level headunit)

Since I bought it, I've added a JBL MS-8, Focal front stage speakers, and sound deadening.

All of the high end receivers (such as the Pioneer Stage 4) promote their internal crossover etc controls. The MS-8 can do all of that.

From a pure sound quality standpoint, will upgrading my headunit improve CD and iPod USB aux sound quality output from the head unit?


----------



## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

CD sound quality: no, since the head unit is only a transport when you have the MS-8 connected.
iPod USB Aux input - this might be up for debate as some people claim there can be a difference in sound quality between head units for this type of input. I don't have an iPod so I can't answer that from experience.


----------



## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

trumpet said:


> CD sound quality: no, since the head unit is only a transport when you have the MS-8 connected.
> iPod USB Aux input - this might be up for debate as some people claim there can be a difference in sound quality between head units for this type of input. I don't have an iPod so I can't answer that from experience.


Well technically, the head unit is much more than a transport in this case. Only if he was taking a digital output from the head unit and sending into a digital input on a processor would it be just a CD transport. 

The head unit however is doing digital to analog conversion, volume control, line driving, source selection between noisy sources, etc. Many things can affect the output quality into the MS-8. The only way to really know is to do a double blind comparison with the deck he wants or to do detailed measurements to see if anything pops up as audibly degrading (in his system particular setup).

IME, chances are high that the only thing that might be improved upon by upgrading is noise floor performance.


----------



## duro78 (Dec 24, 2011)

I'd have to disagree with you trumpet. I'm far from one of those that claim to be able to hear subtle differences in sound. I heard distinct differences in my setup when I had an avh4300, sh1000, 9887 and now a 80prs. The avh wasn't installed with with my current setup so ill leave that one out but I had it for a week and sold it at a loss if that says anything. Now onto the main 3, keep in mind all were used as transport systems only as all processing was done with my ms8.

The sh had a very sharp sound which I initially thought I was gonna like but after 5 minutes I would get headaches from it and it became piercing to my ears. No matter how much I wanted to like it no matter what I did the listening fatigue and headaches became unbearable. The 9887, instruments had more of a real natural sound to them. Now the 80, pioneer is known for its warm laid back sound and that's exactly how I would describe it. To me it didn't have the realism of the alpine but that wasn't a bad thing it still sounded very good in its own way. The 80 was the only one out of the group that I could play loud with out the sound changing for the worse. Guess that's due to the laid back sound. 

Ill be the first to admit with most amps I'd be lying if I said one sounded different from the other but it hasn't been my experience with head units. There were very distinct sound differences between all 3 and could be picked out in seconds of hearing them. Its been my experience that head units have their own characteristics when it comes to sound. I've had five different units installed in the past 6 months and they all had their own sound.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## JimAckley (Mar 22, 2011)

I spend a great deal of my time with home theater systems, and while the home and the car are two totally different environments, different pieces of equipment including CD players & transports, pre-amplifiers, surround processors, amplifiers, and even the cables, have an affect on your sound. I can't imagine why it wouldn't be somewhat the same in a vehicle. Now, I'm not saying you need to go out and buy a full McIntosh setup to enjoy better sound (although you most undoubtedly would), but a higher end head unit will likely offer higher-quality internals like the D/A converter, etc. As far as _which_ units have that is a question better answered by those who spend their time around car audio like I spend mine around home theater.


----------



## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

JimAckley said:


> I spend a great deal of my time with home theater systems, and while the home and the car are two totally different environments, different pieces of equipment including CD players & transports, pre-amplifiers, surround processors, amplifiers, and even the cables, have an affect on your sound. I can't imagine why it wouldn't be somewhat the same in a vehicle. Now, I'm not saying you need to go out and buy a full McIntosh setup to enjoy better sound (although you most undoubtedly would), but a higher end head unit will likely offer higher-quality internals like the D/A converter, etc. As far as _which_ units have that is a question better answered by those who spend their time around car audio like I spend mine around home theater.












The Red Pill


----------



## Sulley (Dec 8, 2008)

^ Great Read.



JimAckley said:


> ...and even the cables


----------



## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

JimAckley said:


> ...a higher end head unit will likely offer higher-quality internals like the D/A converter, etc.


This is where I was going when I said my opinion that the head unit isn't a major factor in sound quality when the processing is offloaded. I do realize people hear differences when changing head unit brands, but I've seen the proof that DACs are treated with far more mysticism than they deserve. This isn't to say that people won't hear a difference, because we do hear differences. The problem is we have a hard time distinguishing actual sonic changes from what's in our heads due to biases.


----------



## CrossFired (Jan 24, 2008)

acprkit said:


> I have an Alpine CDA-105 (essentially Alpine's entry level headunit)
> 
> Since I bought it, I've added a JBL MS-8, Focal front stage speakers, and sound deadening.
> 
> ...


100% yes! Get an DEH-80PRS, you'll love it.


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

Unless you are running digital (optical/coax) into the MS8

EVERY HU will sound different... 

This is one of the very FEW TIMES, you'll ever hear me say something like "*EVERY *HU will sound different" 

But it's true... you could hook up 10 different HU's and it's going to sound 10 different ways.... 

I used to repair HU's, so I've benched HUNDREDS...(nothing recent, so please don't ask) 

Your MS8 is just interrupting signals, which in most cases has ALREADY gone though one D/A-A/D conversion, just to get in the unit... Then it does it's mathematical wizardry to give you what you want... and flips another D/A conversion for you to send it to amps that will change the sound and then speakers that change the sound AGAIN..

Seems rather convoluted doesn't it..?

it's an MS8 world... 



Will a different HU "magically" give you better sound, quite possible, but then again, it'll be "different" so who can REALLY say a 80PRS will do ANYTHING for you... allllllll that processing power, being cut off at it's knees, because it's being run into an MS8... 

sounds promising... not...


----------



## Cooter69 (Dec 18, 2011)

I agree with everyone else, each headunit is made differently. it is really hard to say what will sound better. I suggest you get a headunit you like and can live with then work around that for a system


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

FWIW, I'll provide the dissenting opinion here, and say, no you're not going to hear a difference from one HU to the next. But there can be a very big difference between HUs when it comes to available DSP features, CD skipping/playback, and most importantly (IMO), on-the-fly adjustability.

And like Aaron, I've benched a lot of them too, so I'm curious why we arrived at such different results.


----------



## Got-Four-Eights (Sep 10, 2011)

I hang around a bunch of hardcore SQ nuts who compete and atually win...I asked one of them if the source made a difference when we have a DSP after it.. his response was "Sh!t in equals Sh!t out". If the rest of your system is of good quality I would find it hard to believe you cant tell the difference between a low end 150$ headunit to a 800$ one. I find it kind of funny reading all these threads about how amps sound the same... headunits sound the same.. but when you get with the guys who truly know thier crap that compete and have a true passion for car audio.. they can tell the difference. I am sure I will be flamed for this but I am ok with that


----------



## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

the signal, is whats being amplified, tuned and heard. now, if you can tell the difference between a $500 and $800 i dont know.

as far as amps, the op amp effects the sound. that's why you can order tru amps with the sound you desire. That's how amps have a signature sound. 

IMO once reach a certain level of quality it comes down to what you like.


----------



## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Got-Four-Eights said:


> I hang around a bunch of hardcore SQ nuts who compete and atually win...I asked one of them if the source made a difference when we have a DSP after it.. his response was "Sh!t in equals Sh!t out". If the rest of your system is of good quality I would find it hard to believe you cant tell the difference between a low end 150$ headunit to a 800$ one. I find it kind of funny reading all these threads about how amps sound the same... headunits sound the same.. but when you get with the guys who truly know thier crap that compete and have a true passion for car audio.. they can tell the difference. I am sure I will be flamed for this but I am ok with that


All ready? K, here you go........

:z:


----------



## Got-Four-Eights (Sep 10, 2011)

t3sn4f2 said:


> All ready? K, here you go........
> 
> :z:


LOL I knew you would chime in.


----------



## Got-Four-Eights (Sep 10, 2011)

I'm not bashing anyone's opinion on this. I just know what I have learned talking to the guys I talk to and hearing their setups and getting their input. They aren't the kind of guys who tell you what you are hearing..they ask you.. what do you hear that is different? This has taken my setup to another level and I believe that my old Alpine 9835 would not have gotten me where I am with my Sound Monitor. I don't believe the 9835 to be a low end unit either. I ran it for 6 years and knew it very very well.


----------



## duro78 (Dec 24, 2011)

I had 4 different units installed over a 3 month period and I could clearly hear the difference in all of them. My setup was exaclty the same using an ms8. I could easily hear the difference. I can't say the same about swapping out 4 different amps ranging from low to mid level.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Got-Four-Eights said:


> I hang around a bunch of hardcore SQ nuts who compete and atually win...I asked one of them if the source made a difference when we have a DSP after it.. his response was "Sh!t in equals Sh!t out". If the rest of your system is of good quality I would find it hard to believe you cant tell the difference between a low end 150$ headunit to a 800$ one. I find it kind of funny reading all these threads about how amps sound the same... headunits sound the same.. but when you get with the guys who truly know thier crap that compete and have a true passion for car audio.. they can tell the difference. I am sure I will be flamed for this but I am ok with that



except that the signal you put into a processor gets manipulated by the processor then to the amps which may or may not alter the signal as well.
So lets assume your amps do their job and Only amplify the signal without adding anything more---the last thing in line before that is the processor. So the amps are amplifying the signal put out by the processor. the AD/DA in the processor, opamps, etc....

LOTS of VERY successful competitors use very average head units...Mark Elderidge has been running an Alpine 9860 or 9861 into his DBX.
Bob Johann , multi IASCA world champion, ran the JCV SH-99 which was a $400 head unit...I ran a 9860 when I won IASCA and MECA finals.
Todd Luliak who won Extreme class and had the 2nd Highest score behind Elderidge at MECA finals was an Alpine 505 I think....

id pay more attention to what comes after the head unit....


----------



## Got-Four-Eights (Sep 10, 2011)

Never said you couldn't win with a lower end deck. My point was you can hear a sound difference between a lower end deck and an upper end deck. Lot of guys who compete run higher end decks also like Steve Head's Sound Monitor, Erik Hansen's modified Panny etc. If the deck didn't make that much difference why do people bother to have Matt R modify them? I have to believe if you start with an extremely clean signal it can improve your sound as opposed to starting with a crappy signal from a lower end deck as long as the rest of your components are of good quality.. amps, dsp, speakers etc. Not trying to argue.. your points are valid. Not saying it can't sound good with a lower end deck. I just believe with an upper end deck it can sound better.


----------



## pjc (May 3, 2009)

I see both sides to it. And I personally might attempt my Zapco DC Refs off of my stock head unit to start with. So I really hope to see how it goes and then when I upgrade I will be able to give a better answer. And I would love to think its going to be fantastic and not need improvement. But.....
And just like Brian, I'm not trying to start an argument. But if all decks sound the same why don't we see more JVC and Boss in the lanes competing? And I did read the post above where there have been some lower end deck being successful and like that. I'm personally not one to spend tons of money on equipment. The DC Refs were at a great price otherwise I wouldn't have bought them.


----------



## Got-Four-Eights (Sep 10, 2011)

pjc said:


> I see both sides to it. And I personally might attempt my Zapco DC Refs off of my stock head unit to start with. So I really hope to see how it goes and then when I upgrade I will be able to give a better answer. And I would love to think its going to be fantastic and not need improvement. But.....
> And just like Brian, I'm not trying to start an argument. But if all decks sound the same why don't we see more JVC and Boss in the lanes competing? And I did read the post above where there have been some lower end deck being successful and like that. I'm personally not one to spend tons of money on equipment. The DC Refs were at a great price otherwise I wouldn't have bought them.


Heck, Ricky's stock headunit in his setup sounded awesome with his MS8. Enough to get him 2nd place at Heatwave in Houston. I am eager to hear it with his new deck but he made some other amp changes as well so it won't be an exact comparison.


----------



## pjc (May 3, 2009)

True. I forgot that u mentioned that before. I'm gonna pm him and get his take on it. Thanks Brian.


----------



## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

newer factory h/us are of a lot higher quality. Its easy to tell the difference between the low end and the top end. 

Now a upper mid level h/u with top level processing, thats where it gets really hard to tell.

Ecspecially with things like the oem patch to the helix pdsp, i think it would be very hard to pick out a premium source against something like that.


----------



## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Here's my .02 on the subject. I think there can be an audible difference between SOME source units. From what I've read on this, there are three main contributing factors.

The first is based on the DAC used. Since most modern mid-level and up units use a 20-bit or better DAC (and most use 24-bit), I think this is largely a non-factor. 

The second is if the volume control is analog or digital (and how well the digital control is implemented). A poorly implemented digital volume control has a noise floor that is "fixed" much higher. What this means is that at lower volumes, the noise floor can remain higher than a analog or good digital counterpart (at full output there isn't much difference however which is where most people test headunits). Analog volume has some potential issues of its own (see below) which could explain the love for some of the MAC, Denon, and Nak units. Essentially, these units are less accurate, BUT don't gloss over the "false sense of dynamics" part. And don't discount that less accurate playback or distortion can't be considered pleasing (people love tube amps)...it just can't be considered accurate. 

"A passive volume control adds distortion as phase distortion. As a general rule, its the impedance limitations of the typical high end volume pot that causes the poor reproduction of dynamics and high frequency loss, also keep in mind that even the slightest unevenness in frequency response or phase distortion will add a false sense of dynamics since the apparent volume of the playback will vary as the pitch of the music varies, these factors add muddiness to the sound. There are better pots than others but even the best has degrees of the above."

Third is dithering. This is basically what the head unit does to attenuate harmonics that are "outside" the threshold of hearing. I say "outside" because human hearing range is generally considered to be 20-20k and these components take place at 20k+...yet people claim the differences are audible. From what I understand, most use a brick wall filter at 22khz. Two units that I know play with this are the Sony C90 and the DRZ9255. The C90 has the VC Digital Filter which changed the roll-off characteristics of the dithering filter. The DRZ simply claims with the 24/96 processing abilities, it pushes the dithering further beyond 22khz. 

Having said all that, I still think nearly every other factor of an install will have a greater effect on the sound than the source itself (as long as it's mid-level and up). I'd go as far to say the expectation bias of a "sq" source unit plays a larger role in The end than the source itself.

Personally, I would choose a source based on every factor other than "sq" first. I've owned a C90, DRZ, Denford, URAL, P99, and now have a 80prs. I love the P99 and 80prs from a features standpoint, but I hate the volume control scaling of each. I also hate the feel of the 80prs. As such, I'm looking at trying the C90 or DRZ again. I love the fixed face of the DRZ and a volume control that goes to 0db at max output (both have this).


----------



## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

Orders of importance IMO:

Speakers > HU > Amps > Processors > Wires

I feel a good sources is very important and each sounds very different from another. Going from a 100 HU to a 1k head unit one could easily tell which is better. But when you reach the high end head units, whether one is better than the other or not, that is a matter of preference. For example, a Mcintosh mx5000 and a alpine f1 7990, both sounds greatttt, but at the same time it sounds so different its not even funny. The mac was rich and warm with better dynamics and control in the midbass/bass region, while the f1 has more top end and a breathiness to the vocals and the sax that was also awesome. Team Mac would say the Mac is the best HU in the world, team F1 would say theF1 is the best in the world. It was hard for me to even decide which I liked better.

So back to the OP, will changing the HU alter the sound of your entire system? Definately!! So find a head unit that suits your taste, they all sound very different.

hope that helps!
~C


----------



## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

SouthSyde said:


> The mac was rich and warm with better dynamics and control in the midbass/bass region...
> 
> ~C


I don't have anything to go on other than what I've read, but if it's accurate, the analog volume alone on the Mac could justify all of those characteristics. 

Rich=distortion (like a tube amp)

Warm=rolled off top-end

Dynamics=false dynamics from phase distortion


----------



## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

pionkej said:


> I don't have anything to go on other than what I've read, but if it's accurate, the analog volume alone on the Mac could justify all of those characteristics.
> 
> Rich=distortion (like a tube amp)
> 
> ...


I can honestly tell you I dont know what attribute to the sound, I am just trying my best to put into words what my ears tell me. But I wouldnt think its distortion, the sound was more controlled. The sound was more focused and tighter. If anything its better resolution and not distortion.


----------



## Got-Four-Eights (Sep 10, 2011)

SouthSyde said:


> Orders of importance IMO:
> 
> Speakers > HU > Amps > Processors > Wires
> 
> ...


^^^ A pair of ears I highly respect. Thanks for the input.


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

chaser9478 said:


> as far as amps, the op amp effects the sound. that's why you can order tru amps with the sound you desire. That's how amps have a signature sound


What does an amp without an op amp sound like? Those should sound the best, right?


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Got-Four-Eights said:


> Never said you couldn't win with a lower end deck. My point was you can hear a sound difference between a lower end deck and an upper end deck.


That wasn't the point. You cited competitors as your source for why expensive head units sound better. Your logic is that since they're successful in car audio competitions, their experiences carry more weight than others. But mic10s cited other successful competitors who use cheaper head units to achieve the same results.

So, the obvious question is: what are your successful competitor friends doing wrong to where they need to spend more on head units than other successful competitors?


----------



## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

Markz, Transparency is the goal, right? An amp is supposed to be speaker wire with gain control.

Everything electronic has its own sound. It all also sounds different from car to car.

For the most part the old cliche about beauty is in the eye of the beholder, is very true with audio. One mans laid back is lifeless, one mans airy and detailed is harsh.


----------



## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> That wasn't the point. You cited competitors as your source for why expensive head units sound better. Your logic is that since they're successful in car audio competitions, their experiences carry more weight than others. But mic10s cited other successful competitors who use cheaper head units to achieve the same results.
> 
> So, the obvious question is: what are your successful competitor friends doing wrong to where they need to spend more on head units than other successful competitors?


Well, I think what he is trying to say is that, he knows those successful competitors spent hundreds of hours on install, and hundreds of hours to make sure that it is tuned correctly. And there are many competitors out there that win with lower end HU, because their install and tuning skillz is top notch. The head unit is not the reason why they won the competitions, we all know that speaker placement and install and tuning is wayy more important than a head unit But at the same time, those top notch competitors knows the importance of a nice head unit to further help tailor to the sound that they want, for their enjoyment after everything else is done correctly.


----------



## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

Also, good sound is sooo subjective, especailly in competition... Will I get the same score on the meca score sheet with my Mac and say an alpine 7996? Sure, probably.. But will I personally enjoy my system as much with the alpine? Probably not. But thats just me.


----------



## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

Car audio rule no.1 car audio is about compromise

This site is devoted to those who use skill to overcome budget. It is very refreshing to know that medium level equipment and top notch skilll can win. Or all you would have to do to win is spend money.


----------



## Got-Four-Eights (Sep 10, 2011)

I think you guys are missing the point.. reason I even mentioned the high end guys that compete is that we know they have a good ear. The point of this thread is that a higher end deck can have better SQ then a lower one and I believe that to be true. I am going off what my self and others have experienced going from a lower end deck to an upper level deck. Again, I never said you can't win a comp with a low end deck. Most of us do this for great sound and not competition anyways. 

MarkZ... you really want to tell Steve Head he is doing something wrong? Or Erik who just won Heatwave and has an amazing sounding setup. Go for it. You think they would spend the money on headunit that they do if they did not believe or KNOW they are getting better sound? These are the guys who sit there testing the sounds of equipment for the love of what they do. Competition aside these guys love car audio.. They don't go off of graphs or what they read.. they go off of personal experience with a professional ear. You guys can argue with me all you want. I am done giving my OPINION which I have a right to have... so instead of arguing with me.. just give the OP your OPINION and move on.....


----------



## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

I believe the head will totally change the sound. Locally I was at a store that sells hertz and audison and they are bring pioneer premier back in. They were talking about a customers truck that is basically full hertz and audison amps, had a processor which I believe was the ms8 and an alpine head which I believe was the 9887. The customer swapped to the high end pioneer, not the 80 and every installer said the truck sounded night and day. They said they didnt change one thing but the head and it sounded so much better that they decided to bring pioneer premier in. After swapping the heads they said the owner listened and kept asking what else was changed and it was only the head unit.


----------



## Shadowmarx (Feb 12, 2012)

Right....


chaser9478 said:


> Car audio rule no.1 car audio is about compromise
> 
> This site is devoted to those who use skill to overcome budget. It is very refreshing to know that medium level equipment and top notch skilll can win. Or all you would have to do to win is spend money.


----------



## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

chaser9478 said:


> Car audio rule no.1 car audio is about compromise
> 
> This site is devoted to those who use skill to overcome budget. It is very refreshing to know that medium level equipment and top notch skilll can win. Or all you would have to do to win is spend money.


What happens when you have top level equipment AND top notch skill in the same install?:laugh:


----------



## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

You sit back and enjoy the ride!


----------



## Shadowmarx (Feb 12, 2012)

BuickGN said:


> What happens when you have top level equipment AND top notch skill in the same install?:laugh:


lol....
Still compromise


----------



## ChaunB3400 (Dec 12, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> except that the signal you put into a processor gets manipulated by the processor then to the amps which may or may not alter the signal as well.
> So lets assume your amps do their job and Only amplify the signal without adding anything more---the last thing in line before that is the processor. So the amps are amplifying the signal put out by the processor. the AD/DA in the processor, opamps, etc....
> 
> LOTS of VERY successful competitors use very average head units...Mark Elderidge has been running an Alpine 9860 or 9861 into his DBX.
> ...


What I have been telling people for years.


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Got-Four-Eights said:


> I think you guys are missing the point.. reason I even mentioned the high end guys that compete is that we know they have a good ear. The point of this thread is that a higher end deck can have better SQ then a lower one and I believe that to be true. I am going off what my self and others have experienced going from a lower end deck to an upper level deck. Again, I never said you can't win a comp with a low end deck. Most of us do this for great sound and not competition anyways.
> 
> MarkZ... you really want to tell Steve Head he is doing something wrong? Or Erik who just won Heatwave and has an amazing sounding setup. Go for it. You think they would spend the money on headunit that they do if they did not believe or KNOW they are getting better sound? These are the guys who sit there testing the sounds of equipment for the love of what they do. Competition aside these guys love car audio.. They don't go off of graphs or what they read.. they go off of personal experience with a professional ear. You guys can argue with me all you want. I am done giving my OPINION which I have a right to have... so instead of arguing with me.. just give the OP your OPINION and move on.....




Price tag can change the way people experience wine, study shows


----------



## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> Price tag can change the way people experience wine, study shows


NwAvGuy: What We Hear


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> NwAvGuy: What We Hear


Thanks that's what I was actually looking for but couldn't find it despite having read it many times


----------



## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

Mic10is said:


> Price tag can change the way people experience wine, study shows


But those wine all tastes different dont they?  As previously stated, just have to find what fits your tastes best. The OP is asking basically can improvements be made with a different HU, and the answer is YES, one should just find one that has the sonics that one like.


----------



## Got-Four-Eights (Sep 10, 2011)

For someone in the hobby of car audio to sit there and say that upgrading your source from a lower end deck to a high end deck cannot provide better SQ truly blows my ****ing mind...Let's all just run stock decks then.. fkit. I think I will take that blue and red pill at the same time and just keep an open mind to what I hear instead of believing every choice I make is skewed because if I pay more I automatically think it's going to be better.


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Got-Four-Eights said:


> For someone in the hobby of car audio to sit there and say that upgrading your source from a lower end deck to a high end deck cannot provide better SQ truly blows my ****ing mind...Let's all just run stock decks then.. fkit. I think I will take that blue and red pill at the same time and just keep an open mind to what I hear instead of believing every choice I make is skewed because if I pay more I automatically think it's going to be better.


Open mind is key, that I completely agree with. I don't think I ever said that it can't or won't make a difference.
My point is simply that most often the sonic differences may or may not really be there. But being mindful of bias is always a good idea.
Veteran competitors know this very well. People have natural bias based on what they've heard,read and seen. Sometimes its good to cater to them,sometimes it isn't.
It IS a competition afterall


----------



## Got-Four-Eights (Sep 10, 2011)

Mic10is said:


> Open mind is key, that I completely agree with. I don't think I ever said that it can't or won't make a difference.
> My point is simply that most often the sonic differences may or may not really be there. But being mindful of bias is always a good idea.
> Veteran competitors know this very well. People have natural bias based on what they've heard,read and seen. Sometimes its good to cater to them,sometimes it isn't.
> It IS a competition afterall


Wasn't the original question as simple as can a higher end deck sound better than a lower end deck. Keeping all the biased views and other opinions aside. It really is a simple yes or no answer. Is your answer *Yes* or *No*? Can a higher end headunit have better SQ then a lower end one?


----------



## carlton jones (May 29, 2009)

pionkej they are listing DRZ9255's on ebay a lot lately if you dont mind the 500 prices. i myself prefer to use a headunit with no internal amplification. so that the signal i'm sending out to my processor is not already partialy dirty. i use to run a 9575/7500z setup to a HX-D10/7500z setup. so i'm saying a better headunit with better options and internal working might make your SQ a lil better depending on the rest of your setup.


----------



## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Got-Four-Eights said:


> Wasn't the original question as simple as can a higher end deck sound better than a lower end deck. Keeping all the biased views and other opinions aside. It really is a simple yes or no answer. Is your answer *Yes* or *No*? Can a higher end headunit have better SQ then a lower end one?


I think the answer has to be yes. Can a higher end HU have better SQ, of course. Do most of them? Who knows. You've got to remember that this board tends to look down on people that put money into their systems. Those people automatically get labeled as not knowing how to tune or install their stuff so you will never get an unbiased response.


----------



## Wy2quiet (Jun 29, 2010)

I have never heard a difference in amps. H/U's are a totally different story. I think that the internal amps even if they are +/- 3db over the entire frequency range, there is still room for significant audible differences.


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

SouthSyde said:


> Well, I think what he is trying to say is that, he knows those successful competitors spent hundreds of hours on install, and hundreds of hours to make sure that it is tuned correctly. And there are many competitors out there that win with lower end HU, because their install and tuning skillz is top notch. The head unit is not the reason why they won the competitions, we all know that speaker placement and install and tuning is wayy more important than a head unit But at the same time, those top notch competitors knows the importance of a nice head unit to further help tailor to the sound that they want, for their enjoyment after everything else is done correctly.


Why would someone spend hundreds of hours doing what you describe, and then save a few hundred bucks on a HU if they felt that it would diminish their results?



chaser 9478 said:


> Markz, Transparency is the goal, right? An amp is supposed to be speaker wire with gain control.
> 
> Everything electronic has its own sound. It all also sounds different from car to car.
> 
> For the most part the old cliche about beauty is in the eye of the beholder, is very true with audio. One mans laid back is lifeless, one mans airy and detailed is harsh.


Right, so given that transparency is the goal, then having zero op amp in the preamp should be more transparent than any op amp known to man, even the most expensive ones. So why do people insist on paying lots of money for boutique op amps, rather than modifying their amplifiers to eliminate the preamp stage and the op amps? 

Op amps aren't required -- they're just useful for device matching and necessary for an active gain control.



Got-Four-Eights said:


> MarkZ... you really want to tell Steve Head he is doing something wrong? Or Erik who just won Heatwave and has an amazing sounding setup. Go for it. You think they would spend the money on headunit that they do if they did not believe or KNOW they are getting better sound?


How do you know that "sound" is their rationale for their head unit choice? I've spent lots of money on head units before, and not for "sound".



> These are the guys who sit there testing the sounds of equipment for the love of what they do. Competition aside these guys love car audio.. They don't go off of graphs or what they read.. they go off of personal experience with a professional ear. You guys can argue with me all you want. I am done giving my OPINION which I have a right to have... so instead of arguing with me.. just give the OP your OPINION and move on.....


Settle down. I did give my opinion. It was my reply.



> For someone in the hobby of car audio to sit there and say that upgrading your source from a lower end deck to a high end deck cannot provide better SQ truly blows my ****ing mind..


Welcome to DIYMA! This site was built on the foundation of challenging industry dogma. There's even an entire subsection devoted to it.


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Tested some cheap HUs for distortion (both HD/IMD), noise floor, channel crosstalk and frequency response (doublechecked FR via MLS impulse). Some were really good, some was crappy*. Distortion wasn't the issue on any of the units I tested until they clipped the signal. One or two of the tested HUs clipped really nasty. HD sweeps were -70dB to -90dB down from fundamental in most cases so that's most likely beyond human hearing (Edit: RCA output, NOT internal amp!!). Frequency response wasn't much of an issue either, the ones I tested were something like -3dB down at 10Hz and dropped one or two dB past 20k. The problem was with noise floor and crosstalk, where the units differed pretty much. Crosstalk on some units were well within hearing threshold. 

Features and build quality is other factors you should consider when buying more expensive units. Displays are often pretty bad on cheap units too. Built-in DSPs in the cheaper units is often pretty inadequate too. Headunits do not sound the same, they don't even measure the same. However, in many cases I think the placebo effect has a greater influence than the HU itself. Even among the entry level HUs, all possible distortions were below hearing threshold and all had a frequency response that differed 0.5dB+/- until the lowest/highest octave. It's my opinion that neither of these headunits had any "coloration" applied to them, unless ran into clipping. Crosstalk and noise at low volumes could be noticed as I said however... One thing I noticed was that better headunits do not clip at all at max volume or they clip "nice". One unit in particular distorted the entire sine wave when it clipped, think it was the Hillman.

Before you ask, I don't have the testing data anymore, was stored on a laptop that the harddrive failed on. The tests were conducted with "Rightmark Audio Analyser" and holmImpulse via an external soundcard (think it was Audigy2 or something like that). I do remember that among those units I tested, Alpine CDA-111R was the cleanest HU of them all. The worst ones were brands like Hillman, Roadstar etc... 

Bottom line, go for any of the recognized brands out there like Pioneer, Alpine, JVC, Sony, Eclipse etc. and you will most likely get an adequately clean source. Install issues are the biggest source of bad sounding systems, in very few cases it's actually the equipment that needs upgrading in cars I've listened to. The speakers are most likely the weakest link in most systems if we're only considering the equipment and not the install. If you believe you can hear distortion -70dB down with music, try out a hearing test at Listening Test.


----------



## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

Markz; most folks, including me dont want to void their warranty by modding their amps. If I had the skills I would. 

As far as boutique amps, I have always thought that once you reach a certain level in quality the quality is the same but the sound varies, if that makes sense...

I did go against my own better judgement and just spent a ton of money on boutique amps. I hope that I am in for the best system I have had yet. I am running it with a factory h/u though and that will be the weakest link in my chain.

As this thread is debating I hope I can "fix" any undesirable traits of my factory h/u with my dsp. It is a brand new car and it has the factory upgraded rockford system, which sounds really good. so after much reassurance from an industry pro I am putting highend equipment behind the factory h/u and I am expecting a phenominal outcome.

also the amps that you can buy with no preamp and no opamp stage, for the most part, are the boutique high end amps.


----------



## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Hanatsu said:


> Tested some cheap HUs for distortion (both HD/IMD), noise floor, channel crosstalk and frequency response (doublechecked FR via MLS impulse). Some were really good, some was crappy*. Distortion wasn't the issue on any of the units I tested until they clipped the signal. One or two of the tested HUs clipped really nasty. HD sweeps were -70dB to -90dB down from fundamental in most cases so that's most likely beyond human hearing (Edit: RCA output, NOT internal amp!!). Frequency response wasn't much of an issue either, the ones I tested were something like -3dB down at 10Hz and dropped one or two dB past 20k. The problem was with noise floor and crosstalk, where the units differed pretty much. Crosstalk on some units were well within hearing threshold.
> 
> Features and build quality is other factors you should consider when buying more expensive units. Displays are often pretty bad on cheap units too. Built-in DSPs in the cheaper units is often pretty inadequate too. Headunits do not sound the same, they don't even measure the same. However, in many cases I think the placebo effect has a greater influence than the HU itself. Even among the entry level HUs, all possible distortions were below hearing threshold and all had a frequency response that differed 0.5dB+/- until the lowest/highest octave. It's my opinion that neither of these headunits had any "coloration" applied to them, unless ran into clipping. Crosstalk and noise at low volumes could be noticed as I said however... One thing I noticed was that better headunits do not clip at all at max volume or they clip "nice". One unit in particular distorted the entire sine wave when it clipped, think it was the Hillman.
> 
> ...


Just an FYI heads up.

NwAvGuy: RightMark Audio Analyzer


----------



## Wy2quiet (Jun 29, 2010)

Hanatsu said:


> Tested some cheap HUs for distortion (both HD/IMD), noise floor, channel crosstalk and frequency response (doublechecked FR via MLS impulse). Some were really good, some was crappy*. Distortion wasn't the issue on any of the units I tested until they clipped the signal. One or two of the tested HUs clipped really nasty. HD sweeps were -70dB to -90dB down from fundamental in most cases so that's most likely beyond human hearing (Edit: RCA output, NOT internal amp!!). Frequency response wasn't much of an issue either, the ones I tested were something like -3dB down at 10Hz and dropped one or two dB past 20k. The problem was with noise floor and crosstalk, where the units differed pretty much. Crosstalk on some units were well within hearing threshold.
> 
> Features and build quality is other factors you should consider when buying more expensive units. Displays are often pretty bad on cheap units too. Built-in DSPs in the cheaper units is often pretty inadequate too. Headunits do not sound the same, they don't even measure the same. However, in many cases I think the placebo effect has a greater influence than the HU itself. Even among the entry level HUs, all possible distortions were below hearing threshold and all had a frequency response that differed 0.5dB+/- until the lowest/highest octave. It's my opinion that neither of these headunits had any "coloration" applied to them, unless ran into clipping. Crosstalk and noise at low volumes could be noticed as I said however... One thing I noticed was that better headunits do not clip at all at max volume or they clip "nice". One unit in particular distorted the entire sine wave when it clipped, think it was the Hillman.
> 
> ...


I took that test on my mediocre computer speakers and got down to -15db as correct twice in a row. Below that I can't hear a difference.


----------



## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> Why would someone spend hundreds of hours doing what you describe, and then save a few hundred bucks on a HU if they felt that it would diminish their results?
> 
> Markz, I think in my posts I put importance of a head unit behind countless hours of install and countless hours of tuning. But at the same time, it does add a different sound to the system. I think I also stated that most higher end HU all are of about equal quality but has different sonics and one must find one that suits one's taste. In my example I used the mcintosh mx5000 and alpine 7990, both in which I have recently tested in my own car, and both had veryyyy different sonics. Both good in its own way, but yet very different. Head units I have tested in the past includes sound monitors, denons, panny bottle heads, a plethora of aplines, pioneers. All have very different sounds... Well, I must admit my Sound monitor cdt450x sounds so damn close to the Mac, its hard to justify the price difference.  But thats besides the point.
> 
> ...


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Wy2quiet said:


> I took that test on my mediocre computer speakers and got down to -15db as correct twice in a row. Below that I can't hear a difference.


-15dB down translates to 17.8% THD. I managed -27dB down on the 6inch normal test on the site with my "decent" headphones and I was really concentrating there. Still that's like 4,5% THD. If you're listening to sine tones it's easier to spot the distortion (who does that anyway?...). There's people with golden ears that can spot like 0,5% distortion. The lowend HUs I tested were -70 to -90dB down, which translates to 0.003-0,03% THD. It's truly impossible to hear this. The majority of people, indicated by the test can't hear beyond 12.5% THD (don't know the quality of their audio equipment but it gives us a guideline). 










***Edit: Not saying there aren't any differences between headunits now. But if we only considering distortion, there's isn't any audible differences between those I tested and my P99RS (which hit the noise floor of my soundcard at -100dB btw).


----------



## Wy2quiet (Jun 29, 2010)

Hanatsu said:


> -15dB down translates to 17.8% THD. I managed -27dB down on the 6inch normal test on the site with my "decent" headphones and I was really concentrating there. Still that's like 4,5% THD. If you're listening to sine tones it's easier to spot the distortion (who does that anyway?...). There's people with golden ears that can spot like 0,5% distortion. The lowend HUs I tested were -70 to -90dB down, which translates to 0.003-0,03% THD. It's truly impossible to hear this. The majority of people, indicated by the test can't hear beyond 12.5% THD (don't know the quality of their audio equipment but it gives us a guideline).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didnt ever believe that a certain H/U would cause audible THD, rather I hear actual colouration differences. I mean, I am not crazy. I can tell if you blind tested me between the CDA-117 and the DEH-80PRS, the Alpine sounds "digital".


----------



## Got-Four-Eights (Sep 10, 2011)

BuickGN said:


> I think the answer has to be yes. Can a higher end HU have better SQ, of course. Do most of them? Who knows. You've got to remember that this board tends to look down on people that put money into their systems. Those people automatically get labeled as not knowing how to tune or install their stuff so you will never get an unbiased response.


Ya know.. I am starting to notice this. lol... I feel bad for the OP. I love how everyone dances around the actual question.. A simple yes or no can cut through the BS.


----------



## Got-Four-Eights (Sep 10, 2011)

MarkZ said:


> Why would someone spend hundreds of hours doing what you describe, and then save a few hundred bucks on a HU if they felt that it would diminish their results?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't catch a YES or a NO in any of this... At least the few of us that believe a higher end head unit can have better SQ over a low end one are saying YES... the guys who don't agree..... they aren't saying NO!


----------



## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

I say yes, but is it needed? no. It really isnt that simple, ecspecially not with all of the dsp's available now.

I am not trying to be difficult but it isnt a black or white issue it is a huge gray area.


----------



## Got-Four-Eights (Sep 10, 2011)

chaser9478 said:


> I say yes, but is it needed? no. It really isnt that simple, ecspecially not with all of the dsp's available now.
> 
> I am not trying to be difficult but it isnt a black or white issue it is a huge gray area.


Another YES.... where are the NO's?????


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

SouthSyde said:


> We are all here to help the OP, and he is asking whether a better head unit would help his system sound better, and my answer is YES! They all sound very different, they do not all sound the same. And to find one that fits his taste...
> 
> I dont see what all the fuss is about really? If you cannot hear a difference between a Mcintosh mx5000 and $100 dollar JVC head unit, you have no business spending that much money anyways... I for one can, so I choose to run the Mac.


I understand that your answer is that they're different. My answer is that they're not. If you have a head unit that's imparting a different sound (assuming this isn't coming from an integrated DSP of some sort, or some other "feature"), then I'd suggest that either your head unit is broken, of very poor quality in terms of transparency (even if it's expensive), or you're not using it within its intended range or application (e.g. Hanatsu's observations). I say this because it's INCREDIBLY simple and inexpensive to create a source unit with a perfectly flat frequency response, zero distortion, and noise properties below that which is introduced in the installation (like by ground loops). And by "inexpensive", I mean about two dollars.

You can verify everything I'm saying with a very simple set of tools.


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Wy2quiet said:


> I didnt ever believe that a certain H/U would cause audible THD, rather I hear actual colouration differences.


What is "coloration" if it's not described by the distortion and frequency response properties of the unit?


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Got-Four-Eights said:


> I didn't catch a YES or a NO in any of this... At least the few of us that believe a higher end head unit can have better SQ over a low end one are saying YES... the guys who don't agree..... they aren't saying NO!


People who think that things are simple enough to be answered with a yes/no tend not to understand the complexities of the problem.

Is it possible that a head unit can sound bad? Sure. There might be some korean head unit manufactured in 1974 that none of us have ever heard of that sounds awful. There might be a $5 million dollar head unit with a 5kHz low pass filter applied to the output to try to distinguish itself from the competition. That, by itself, would render the answer "yes", even if 10,000 other head units all sounded the same. So it's a bit of a loaded question with a pretty useless answer.

If the question is how LIKELY it is that a head unit change will yield an audible improvement, then I think plenty of us (who you label as "the guys who don't agree") have made it pretty clear about what we think. It's not fair for you to try to characterize us as fence-sitters, or whatever it is you're trying to convey.


----------



## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> I understand that your answer is that they're different. My answer is that they're not. If you have a head unit that's imparting a different sound (assuming this isn't coming from an integrated DSP of some sort, or some other "feature"), then I'd suggest that either your head unit is broken, of very poor quality in terms of transparency (even if it's expensive), or you're not using it within its intended range or application (e.g. Hanatsu's observations). I say this because it's INCREDIBLY simple and inexpensive to create a source unit with a perfectly flat frequency response, zero distortion, and noise properties below that which is introduced in the installation (like by ground loops). And by "inexpensive", I mean about two dollars.
> 
> You can verify everything I'm saying with a very simple set of tools.


Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion and mine to mine. If you are ever in Houston, you are welcomed to come over to my house and we can do a blind test to see if you can hear differences in different head units in my car. I use a tiny PS and it takes about 5 seconds for me to change RCAs from head unit to head unit, because we all know auditory memory is not thattt great. Its almost a true AB test. We will use only 2 songs, maybe 3. If you cannot tell a difererence, maybe thats a good thing, you would never have to spend lots of money of a pure head unit. A cheap one is good enough for your ears.


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

The interesting question isn't whether you or I can detect the difference between two HUs in a blind test. That doesn't really tell us anything. The interesting question is what properties of the HUs are leading to that difference. If you have two HUs that seem to exhibit a different sound, then it would be instructive to ALL of us *how* those two HUs differ. And you can provide that information very easily without having to invite people to your house.  A simple set of measurements can tell us everything we need to know about those HUs. Impulse response functions, FR/distortion graphs -- however you want to do it. Armed with that information, you guys can prove once and for all that there are some manufacturers that are failing to achieve the very simple goal of flat FR and low THD/IMD. And then we can point and laugh at those manufacturers.

Of course, EVERY blind test should already have some of these measurements already. You can't just unplug one HU and plug in another one. You need to _at least_ equalize the levels of the two units you're comparing, otherwise you're not dissociating the differences in gain structures from the "sound quality" of the devices. How are you doing this presently?


----------



## Wy2quiet (Jun 29, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> What is "coloration" if it's not described by the distortion and frequency response properties of the unit?


I have no idea, I am not at the level of others on this board in terms of electrical/sound knowledge. I just know I can hear the differences. It may be all those decks have integrated DSP's (which they do in the T/A's and Xovers, and I never touch the EQ's on HU's) but I honestly have no idea. I actually SOLD my CDA-117 for no other reason than the sound of it. Kenwood really does tend to sound warmer.


----------



## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> The interesting question isn't whether you or I can detect the difference between two HUs in a blind test. That doesn't really tell us anything. The interesting question is what properties of the HUs are leading to that difference. If you have two HUs that seem to exhibit a different sound, then it would be instructive to ALL of us *how* those two HUs differ. And you can provide that information very easily without having to invite people to your house.  A simple set of measurements can tell us everything we need to know about those HUs. Impulse response functions, FR/distortion graphs -- however you want to do it. Armed with that information, you guys can prove once and for all that there are some manufacturers that are failing to achieve the very simple goal of flat FR and low THD/IMD. And then we can point and laugh at those manufacturers.
> 
> Of course, EVERY blind test should already have some of these measurements already. You can't just unplug one HU and plug in another one. You need to _at least_ equalize the levels of the two units you're comparing, otherwise you're not dissociating the differences in gain structures from the "sound quality" of the devices. How are you doing this presently?


Again, as stated earlier, I really do not know what attributes to the different sounds, there could be a number of things. The different parts use, the different design of the entire unit itself. I am no electrical engineer, just an audiophile and I trust what my ears tell me. 

I guess I am just one of them crazy hifi audiophile nut that believes everything matters in the signal chain, even the RCAs and speaker wires  shut yo mouth!!!! RCAs and speaker wires too??? Yes!!

You previously stated that all head units doesnt make a difference in the sound, thus I opened up my home to you so maybe I could change your mind. I have a few high end head unit we could play with, armed with no fancy tools, just merely your ears and mine.

The tests that I do is not very technical, its more for my pleasure than anything else. Its just a head unit test to see which I like better, not trying to prove the big bang theory here  I have a HU that is already mounted in my car, and one that sits in the front seat that is powered by a small PS. I unplug the rcas from the head unit mounted to my car and plug into the head unit sitting on the front seat. Turn to about the same volume using the same cd. Done! See what my ears like best! So please dont pick at my test and say its flawed, because at the end of the day its what I hear day in and day out and its what I like.  Afterall, I listen with my ears, not with fancy equipments. Sure fancy equipment can help tell a story, but not the whole book.



I think this is starting to get redundant, and I have voiced my opinion to the OP, and I'll leave it as that. I hoped in some way I have helped the OP in making his decision.

Take care!
~C


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

SouthSyde said:


> Again, as stated earlier, I really do not know what attributes to the different sounds, there could be a number of things. The different parts use, the different design of the entire unit itself. I am no electrical engineer, just an audiophile and I trust what my ears tell me.
> 
> I guess I am just one of them crazy hifi audiophile nut that believes everything matters in the signal chain, even the RCAs and speaker wires  shut yo mouth!!!! RCAs and speaker wires too??? Yes!!
> 
> ...



I appreciate the offer, but Houston isn't very convenient for me and I've already done similar tests many times. It's difficult for me, or anyone, to try to identify over the internet what the sources of these differences you're hearing are, but as a first step I'd suggest doing your best to isolate variables. Which means doing things like defeating on-board processing and tone controls, carefully matching outputs, eliminating noise cues, and other things that have been proven to impact the sound but which we wouldn't normally attribute to the "sound quality" of a device. You're right that we're not trying to prove the big bang theory, but any time you make a definitive statement it's really important that you're not drawing faulty conclusions because you haven't conducted the experiment properly. 

Honestly, you can't really come in here and say "XYZ sounds different from ABC, but no I haven't conducted the test correctly because it's too tedious and I'm not trying to prove the big bang theory." Because there are people who HAVE conducted it correctly, and can report their results which end up being more meaningful. When you don't do the tests in the appropriate way, it leads to epic threads like this one where there's a disagreement that ultimately stem from results obtained using two different methodologies. And then the OP becomes confused because there are two camps telling him two different things.

Or threads like http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-truth-myths-industry-dogma/93704-class-d-amplification-can-sound-just-good-true-b-17.html, where a guy just came in yesterday to proclaim there was a huge difference in sound between two particular amps, before we pried out of him that his gain structure between the two was all whacked. This is why it's important to conduct listening tests in a controlled manner.


----------



## Got-Four-Eights (Sep 10, 2011)

Yup, I am out also. Simple yes or no.. and I gave my YES.. still waiting on the NO from some but I don't see it coming. OP good luck with the info you were provided. 

Laters!


----------



## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> I appreciate the offer, but Houston isn't very convenient for me and I've already done similar tests many times. It's difficult for me, or anyone, to try to identify over the internet what the sources of these differences you're hearing are, but as a first step I'd suggest doing your best to isolate variables. Which means doing things like defeating on-board processing and tone controls, carefully matching outputs, eliminating noise cues, and other things that have been proven to impact the sound but which we wouldn't normally attribute to the "sound quality" of a device. You're right that we're not trying to prove the big bang theory, but any time you make a definitive statement it's really important that you're not drawing faulty conclusions because you haven't conducted the experiment properly.
> 
> Honestly, you can't really come in here and say "XYZ sounds different from ABC, but no I haven't conducted the test correctly because it's too tedious and I'm not trying to prove the big bang theory." Because there are people who HAVE conducted it correctly, and can report their results which end up being more meaningful. When you don't do the tests in the appropriate way, it leads to epic threads like this one where there's a disagreement that ultimately stem from results obtained using two different methodologies. And then the OP becomes confused because there are two camps telling him two different things.
> 
> Or threads like http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-truth-myths-industry-dogma/93704-class-d-amplification-can-sound-just-good-true-b-17.html, where a guy just came in yesterday to proclaim there was a huge difference in sound between two particular amps, before we pried out of him that his gain structure between the two was all whacked. This is why it's important to conduct listening tests in a controlled manner.


Ok so I can assume ...... is very far from Houston. 

I get your point, I really do. There are tooo many people that perform flawed tests, or just dont have the ear to hear the details in the music on this board and mislead people with their findings. And then people read their reviews and that is the bible, an end to all reviews. I get it. But I actually pride myself in having a pretty good ear, I am not new to hi fidelity. You dont know me, so I dont expect you to give me any credentials, and thats OK. I'll leave it at that. 

And remember, Im just one of those crazy audio nutz that dont believe that measurements tells the entire story, our ears are the final tools. As crazy as that sounds.  So those people who performed the tests correctly and measured everything, I still dont feel those measurements tells exactly how the head unit sounds. 

And thats all folks! 

Take care!
~C


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

You're absolutely 100% correct that ears are the only measurement tools that matter. The ears are the end goal, period.

But when you draw conclusions about something -- anything -- you often need to employ other tools so that you can identify what it is that you're concluding! If I listen to your car and then listen to my car, and hear that there's a huge difference, I can't conclude, "Well, there you have it! You and I used different speaker cables, so therefore our speaker cables provide vastly different sound!" That would be foolish. We would have to identify what component or what aspects of the environment are responsible for the differences we perceive -- can't just pick one of the many possibilities and go with it. So, for that example, I might electrically measure the individual components (or at least the speaker cables) to identify whether the speaker cables are in fact responsible for the differences observed.

Again, nobody is challenging your assertion that you hear a difference. The only challenge is that you identify the offending component. You might argue, "I only swapped out the head units and nothing else, and therefore it must be the head unit." But you haven't demonstrated that 1) the output settings were the same; 2) the operation was at a constant level (vol controls are different); 3) the tone controls/DSP were flat; 4) the units were operating within their linear ranges. That's where measurement tools come in.

And this is important, because it *greatly* alters the conclusion that one can draw. 

You asked for credentials -- I don't have any credentials to provide regarding listening, aside from having played instruments for a little over 20 years. I do not work in the audio field, although I am an engineer who has performed these sorts of measurements in a professional capacity for about 10 years, and I have expertise in performing sensory testing for several years as well.


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> You're absolutely 100% correct that ears are the only measurement tools that matter. The ears are the end goal, period.
> 
> But when you draw conclusions about something -- anything -- you often need to employ other tools so that you can identify what it is that you're concluding! If I listen to your car and then listen to my car, and hear that there's a huge difference, I can't conclude, "Well, there you have it! You and I used different speaker cables, so therefore our speaker cables provide vastly different sound!" That would be foolish. We would have to identify what component or what aspects of the environment are responsible for the differences we perceive -- can't just pick one of the many possibilities and go with it. So, for that example, I might electrically measure the individual components (or at least the speaker cables) to identify whether the speaker cables are in fact responsible for the differences observed.
> 
> ...


I've probably had over 20 different headunits I've both installed and tested over the past 8 years. I've never heard any difference between them, other than high noisefloor on some units. These units have ranged from Alpines cheaper units like CDA-111R and Pioneer p9 ODR. The time it took to swap the units in a new install was that much that the auditory memory no longer remembers how the old unit sounded (auditory memory lasts less than a second btw...). I've even done ABX blindtests between highend amplifiers and source units, some I heard differences, but I couldn't tell if it was better or worse. The expectation that it will sound better after spending money on equipment will actually have the effect that it does sound better. To get objective results whether something actually sound better you need to measure it, all electronic parameters can be measured in great detail. Same with cables, there's no mystery here either. The only parameters a cable have is capacitance, inductance and resistance. Noise shielding should be taken into account as well, especially in a car. If these parameters don't affect distortion, noise, frequency response or impulse response then it changes exactly nothing. Listening to this would be redundant. If you want to alter the way a system sounds, you buy yourself a DSP. Don't understand this talk about that some source sounds different, even it would, you can alter it via a DSP. Source units and amplifiers make lousy equalizers. They should always sound neutral/measure flat. I totally agree that it's s the ears we listen with and that should be final judge in the quest for better sound but in some cases I only find it weird that so many people go buy stuff because some magazine tells them that this new cd player will do wonders in your system without even mention one objective reason WHY it is so much better than your current. To convey such objectivity, measurements are the the key. If something measure that good that it is well below human hearing and other environmental issues for that matter (the car's interior do degrade sound quality) - it must be transparent. 

The OTs question: is there a difference between headunits? Of course there are! Can the differences with distinguishable to the ear? In most cases, I'd say no. There's audible sound degradation among noise and crosstalk parameters (on some cheaper units), other than that I find it highly unlikely to hear differences. If there's no difference, why the hell did I buy a Pioneer P99RS then?!? Because it has an awesome built-in DSP with 4-way capabilities with a 31b GEQ I can change the sound however I want to. It got awesome iPod control, nice display, good build quality and some other really nice features not available in cheaper models. Just saying, buying highend models gives you features to make the unit sound however you want it to sound! If you have the money, why hesitate. If you don't have the money, spend it on other things like installation where the real difference can be found.

I rephrase the question: Head unit upgrade = better SQ output = YES, if it does have a DSP built in. Definitely, it's absolutely necessary imo!!


----------

