# To use horns, or not to....... Info?



## DaCid

I have my current system listed in my signature, but I am working on upgrading it soon.

Up until recently I was thinking about installing some dynaudio esotec 242's and upgrading to better amp(s) for them. I currently do not have much of a sound stage in my car because my ears are not very experienced and I suck at EQing. 

I have recently started reading threads on this forum about people running horns and experiencing a much cleaner setup than those running average component loud speakers. 

I have never heard a setup with horns, my town is small and the local audio places are a complete joke. So I am basically just looking to find more information on horns and sound staging, then deciding if it would be a better to roll with the dyn comps or take a leap into horns and see how it goes.

Thank you for any advice you can share, it is much appreciated.


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## Horsemanwill

honda's like that are great horn cars


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## DanMan

You've got a car built for horns. Eric Steven's horns are built for that car.(So to speak)

Sounds like a no-brainer

Works for me. I tried horns a few years back without ever hearing them. I've changed every component in my system except for the horns. Looking now to change the car. But not the horns.


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## DaCid

Well it seems I might need to look into horns more now..... 

Could any of you point me in the right direction as far as what I can research? 

I would like to know more about how they work/ what makes them so different from a typical loud speaker. 

I have noticed that it seems most people have a more difficult time mounting the horns under the dash, so maybe I will find some build logs on them. 

If I were to go with a set of horns, what would you recommend, and why? 

What frequencies do you have yours play?

Would my focal woofers be ideal for a set of horns, or should I look into upgrading to a different mid?

Thanks for your guys' responses, it really helps me to learn some new things.


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## richiec77

Read up in their forum for sure. Erik is the one who developed and made the Image Dynamic horns so you'll see him still posting good information here. 

Like the guy's were saying, those older Civics have a dash made for horns and they're not too hard to install. Even easier if your car is an automatic.


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## Horsemanwill

Eric would be the best person to discuss with. Mic10 and jason, aka thehatedguy also know their horns well. you could always send eric a pm on here. sometimes it takes him a minute to answer but he will def get u started in the right direction


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## DaCid

Alright, thank you for your references!

I have one question though, from the little bit I've been reading today I am lost at how most people configure their system around horns.... What frequencies do people tend to have their horns play?

At first I had the impression that I would have a mid-range play from ~80hz-1.25 or 1.6khz, then the horn pick up from there..... Am I completely off on this initial assumption?


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## Horsemanwill

that's about right. subs would play 80 down mids 80 to 1khz range, depends on horn body, and horns play the rest up


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## DaCid

Okay, I'm very glad to hear that! The less equipment I have to squeeze into my car the better at this point.

If I were to have my mid-range drop around the 1.25-1.6khz range, would it matter whether I went with a full body horn or a mini? 

I am questioning the install of full bodies because on the passenger's side I have my car's computer, the blower motor, and my HU's power supply. And the driver's side has the clutch (yep, no automatic for me ), and my security alarm's brain next to the fuse box.


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## Horsemanwill

with all that u may want mini's. with that said the main thing you have to worry about is the mid speaker has to be effiecient enough to keep up with the horns


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## DaCid

Yeah, that's what I've been noticing has come up in most threads.....

My current Focal Access woofers are 92dB sensitive, but I haven't seen any woofers any higher than 93dB so far.


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## richiec77

You'll want to use Pro-Audio drivers to try and keep up with the horns. 8" is the sweet spot for size. 6 1/2" typically don't have enough efficiency and still play low enough (80-100Hz) or are efficient enough and can't play low. 10" are good, but large and hard to fit up front. 8" is a have your cake and eat it too size. There are a few exceptions but even those are on the edge. 

I have a set of JBL 2119H (updated 2118H), 18Sound 8MB400, and I scored a deal on some BNIB Illusion Audio 8 Nd. Most likely the 8" Illusions won't work well since the efficiency mis-match is pretty steep. 

The 1 thing you'll see over and over again is trying to find a good speaker that works well with horns. The hardest part is the efficiency and high power handling needed. 

The hard fast rule is 1-3-5 power to HLCD-MIDS-WOOFERS.

Easier example is to show what I have and roughly the power I will be running. 

HLCD (108dB) ~ 16W
18 Sound 8MB400 (95dB) ~ 350W
IDMAX 10" (~93dB) ~ 2000W

The Subs don't need that much power, but I'll have it in reserve in case.


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## subwoofery

DaCid said:


> Yeah, that's what I've been noticing has come up in most threads.....
> 
> My current Focal Access woofers are 92dB sensitive, but I haven't seen any woofers any higher than 93dB so far.


I can tell you that the Access is only 88.36dB 1w/1m. 
Sensitivity specs in 1w/1m is what matters. 

Try to use one between: 
91dB-93dB for a 6" driver
92dB-95dB for an 8" driver 

Kelvin


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## DaCid

richiec77 said:


> I have a set of JBL 2119H (updated 2118H), *18Sound 8MB400*, and I scored a deal on some BNIB Illusion Audio 8 Nd. Most likely the 8" Illusions won't work well since the efficiency mis-match is pretty steep.
> 
> The 1 thing you'll see over and over again is trying to find a good speaker that works well with horns. The hardest part is the efficiency and high power handling needed.
> 
> The hard fast rule is 1-3-5 power to HLCD-MIDS-WOOFERS.
> 
> Easier example is to show what I have and roughly the power I will be running.
> 
> HLCD (108dB) ~ 16W
> 18 Sound 8MB400 (95dB) ~ 350W
> IDMAX 10" (~93dB) ~ 2000W
> 
> The Subs don't need that much power, but I'll have it in reserve in case.


Are you currently running the 18Sound 8MB400 with your current setup? I actually came across those today while searching for a suitable mid to run with horns. If you don't mind me asking, where did you get them from? I haven't seen them being sold anywhere.

I have the 12" version of your sub, and with my old school zapco I will be able to push ~870w to it, delivering plenty of bump for me. 



> I can tell you that the Access is only 88.36dB 1w/1m.
> Sensitivity specs in 1w/1m is what matters.


I must have misread my spec sheet, I'm not surprised though. I don't think the woofer is all that impressive.

More questions for you guys.... I am currently contemplating whether I could squeeze a full body horn in or not (from what I have read it is worth the extra work even if they won't sit as far back.... Is this generally correct?), but I also am trying to shop for the horn itself.

I am a fan of Eric Steven's products, so I have been leaning towards one of his. (Newbie disclaimer: Now I know he left Image Dynamics so I am not sure if the current ID horns I've seen for sell are actually from his era.) I have noticed there are the ultras and the pros, and a wide price difference between the two.... I have learned from past experience not to settle for cheaper quality because you will just end up losing more money by upgrading later, however, I have never heard ANY horns so I don't know how much of a difference in SQ I could expect between the two. 

The last question (for now) is what frequency range I could expect a quality horn to play well? Some threads I have read mention that their responses fall fairly drastically after 10khz. I have sensitive ears (I can hear up to over 19khz sounds), so if this is the case, I will most likely have to implement a set of tweeters to top off the system.

Sorry for the long-winded, half-awake post, but I have been learning so much from this forum. I love how so many smart and experienced people can come together to share their knowledge with everyone! :laugh::book2:


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## bigbubba

Gonna follow this post. I too am adding Image HLCD to my car. Just bought a set of new drivers for the horn bodies. Can't wait to get these hooked up.


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## minbari

DaCid said:


> I must have misread my spec sheet, I'm not surprised though. I don't think the woofer is all that impressive.
> 
> More questions for you guys.... I am currently contemplating whether I could squeeze a full body horn in or not (from what I have read it is worth the extra work even if they won't sit as far back.... Is this generally correct?), but I also am trying to shop for the horn itself.


someone may disagree with me, but if you have to compromise install to get the full body to go, then the mini body will be better. you want the mouth of the horn to be no farthur forward than the front edge of the dash. if it can go under the dash a bit, even better.


> I am a fan of Eric Steven's products, so I have been leaning towards one of his. (Newbie disclaimer: Now I know he left Image Dynamics so I am not sure if the current ID horns I've seen for sell are actually from his era.) I have noticed there are the ultras and the pros, and a wide price difference between the two.... I have learned from past experience not to settle for cheaper quality because you will just end up losing more money by upgrading later, however, I have never heard ANY horns so I don't know how much of a difference in SQ I could expect between the two.


Eric owns the patents and rights to the horns, so when he left ID, he took his horns with him. long story short, they are still all Eric era.


> The last question (for now) is what frequency range I could expect a quality horn to play well? Some threads I have read mention that their responses fall fairly drastically after 10khz. I have sensitive ears (I can hear up to over 19khz sounds), so if this is the case, I will most likely have to implement a set of tweeters to top off the system.


this is an interesting subject. the CD1e has a fairly decent response out to about 12khz and the ultra will go out to about 16khz. since there is no fundamental sounds from any instrument above about 8khz, I think it is a moot point. you are gonna need an EQ to flatten out the horns anyway, they have a hump around 2.5khz and 6khz, so bumping 12-16khz to get a little more response out of them in that region is not a big deal. to be honest, with mine, they have plenty of treble response and I only have 15khz bumped about 6db. if you feel you need more, add a super tweeter crossed above 10khz


> Sorry for the long-winded, half-awake post, but I have been learning so much from this forum. I love how so many smart and experienced people can come together to share their knowledge with everyone! :laugh::book2:


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## thehatedguy

A lot of the electronics and things can be moved out of the way to get you more room. The bottom of the blower motor can probably be modified a bit to gain some room too...the actual fan isn't as large as the case.

Do you mind or have problems cutting a little metal?


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## bigbubba

Can't the horns be mounted with the drivers facing down instead of up in the dash? Will that affect the sound in any way?

Sorry for the thread jack.


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## thehatedguy

No effect on the sound...mount whichever way is easiest to mount them.


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## richiec77

Eighteen Sound Speakers - Eighteen Sound 8MB400 - Eighteen Sound 8MB400 8" woofer handles 400 watts program. Eighteen Sound 8MB400 8" mid-bass speakers are available here. 18 Sound speaker components. 
That's where I got my 18 sounds from. Good reviews on this speaker.

As far as response past 12KHz-16KHz: there may not be a fundamental center freq for an instrument in that range, but there sure are harmonics and resonances that really do make up what we hear. So it can matter especially if you can hear accurately at that high freq.

Oh yeah. With mounting, you want them as far back and out as possible. Exception is a big cab vehicle like a truck where going wide has diminishing returns on matching path lengths. There you want to get as far back as possible.


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## subwoofery

Just want to add that you based on the OPs requirements (hear close to 19kHz and all), the mini bodies would suit him better. 
**DaCid** 
Try to contact Eric Stevens via e-mail. He's working to bring new products out with his new venture and is already selling horns under his name. 
In the mean time, try to take pics of your car's interior and of the underdash panel. 
Ultras or Pros? If you have an EQ, just buy the one you can afford 



minbari said:


> someone may disagree with me, but if you have to compromise install to get the full body to go, then the mini body will be better. you want the mouth of the horn to be no farthur forward than the front edge of the dash. if it can go under the dash a bit, even better.
> 
> Eric owns the patents and rights to the horns, so when he left ID, he took his horns with him. long story short, they are still all Eric era.
> 
> this is an interesting subject. the CD1e has a fairly decent response out to about 12khz and the ultra will go out to about 16khz. since there is no fundamental sounds from any instrument above about 8khz, I think it is a moot point. you are gonna need an EQ to flatten out the horns anyway, they have a hump around 2.5khz and 6khz, so bumping 12-16khz to get a little more response out of them in that region is not a big deal. to be honest, with mine, they have plenty of treble response and I only have 15khz bumped about 6db. if you feel you need more, add a super tweeter crossed above 10khz


Kelvin


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## DaCid

thehatedguy said:


> Do you mind or have problems cutting a little metal?


HA! Between my brother and I owning this car it is anything but stock. It's been torn apart for ~13 years now, all custom interior will be going back in. There's few places that haven't been drilled through or modified. hahah.

Maybe one of you could give me the approximate dimensions of a full body? I have learned to make cardboard prototypes of anything when I want to check for fitting.

It sounds like I may add a super tweet, my first option that came to mind was the Dynaudio MD102 (the E110 is quite pricy). So if I do have a tweeter roll in around 11khz or so, would it matter whether I used the ultras or pros? I'm guessing there is more to their differences than just their frequency range, right?


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## richiec77

I keep wanting to know what he is working on. I'll be an early adopter for his gear. ID is one of those rare brands that haven't gone backwards thru the years. 

Oh yeah. The ID x69 are a popular choice I see posted up from time to time. I'd honestly send Eric a PM and get a set-up from him directly. He helped me with a couple choices for 8" even though I'm sure he could have sold me on his speakers.


Also, just read the other threads in this forum as a lot of the questions you are asking have already been answered just in the 1st page. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/118526-mid-bass-drivers-set-erics-horns.html 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/125103-horn-midbass-power-ratio.html 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/115231-another-hlcd-placement-thread.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1445449-post16.html


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## minbari

Ultras handle more power. 40W RMS vs 120w RMS.(on paper anyway  ) ultras are slightly more sensitive too. I beleive they are 111db 1w/1m vs 108. the way Eric described it to me, is that the ultras have more "sparkle" on the high end. 

before investing in a tweeter, install em and see if you need it. I have the basic CD and have no plan on adding a tweeter. they image really well and it sounds like all the "tweeting" is coming from in front of you.


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## DaCid

subwoofery said:


> Just want to add that you based on the OPs requirements (hear close to 19kHz and all), the mini bodies would suit him better.
> **DaCid**
> Try to contact Eric Stevens via e-mail. He's working to bring new products out with his new venture and is already selling horns under his name.
> In the mean time, try to take pics of your car's interior and of the underdash panel.
> Ultras or Pros? If you have an EQ, just buy the one you can afford
> 
> 
> Kelvin


Kelvin, would you mind expanding on why the mini bodies would better suit me?

I will definitely be contacting Eric soon, I just want to have some research and starter ideas before I contact him.

I will go snap a couple of pictures of under my dash and upload them in just a bit.

My EQ currently consists of a 5 band PEQ that the DRZ does. I do own a miniDSP but have not thought about implementing it into the system (yet).

Well this is what I'm thinking as far as budget goes..... I can save up and buy whatever I decide, but before horns became a possibility I was looking to buy Dynaudio Esotecs (~$830), so maybe I will try to get the horns and woofers (and maybe tweeters if I decide to add them) for around the same cost. Obviously this is nothing solid, but I am only 18 so spending money is always bitter sweet.... Especially with college starting to approach.


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## minbari

keep in mind what door woofer you plan to use as well. something sensitive in the 92db+ 1w/1m at least. if you get something like a dyn with mid 80's you will be killing yourself to keep up with the horns.


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## richiec77

With the mini's, they cross-fire harder so they make for a stronger center image. And their physical size is MUCH smaller and easier to fit. 

Mic...I can't remember his whole username right now...is a good source for info also. IIRC the HLC install thread he posted up some pics of his installation in a Honda.


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## DaCid

minbari said:


> keep in mind what door woofer you plan to use as well. something sensitive in the 92db+ 1w/1m at least. if you get something like a dyn with mid 80's you will be killing yourself to keep up with the horns.


Yeah, right now I am looking around but one woofer that has caught my eye is the 18 sound 8MB400 (95dB sensitivity @ 1w/1m).

I don't know if this will impact which size horn I want to go with, but I am someone that tunes the car to focus on the driver. I will consider making the passenger experience a good stage as soon as they help pay my bills and gas. Now does that impact whether I would want the minis or fulls?

I'm heading out to take pictures right now.


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## minbari

DaCid said:


> Yeah, right now I am looking around but one woofer that has caught my eye is the 18 sound 8MB400 (95dB sensitivity @ 1w/1m).
> 
> I don't know if this will impact which size horn I want to go with, but I am someone that tunes the car to focus on the driver. I will consider making the passenger experience a good stage as soon as they help pay my bills and gas. Now does that impact whether I would want the minis or fulls?
> 
> I'm heading out to take pictures right now.


lol, I hear ya. 95% of the time I drive alone anyway, so pasenger is not a big consideration. I dont think it will have much effect on decision for mini or full, lol.


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## DaCid

Alright, the pictures might not be very helpful.... I took them with my junky phone camera and a flashlight for the flash. hahah.


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## minbari

driverside would be the most diffecult for full bodies depending on what is in the way. the passenger side looks easy. mini-bodies should be a peice of cake.


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## subwoofery

DaCid said:


> Kelvin, would you mind expanding on why the mini bodies would better suit me?
> 
> I will definitely be contacting Eric soon, I just want to have some research and starter ideas before I contact him.
> 
> I will go snap a couple of pictures of under my dash and upload them in just a bit.
> 
> My EQ currently consists of a 5 band PEQ that the DRZ does. I do own a miniDSP but have not thought about implementing it into the system (yet).
> 
> Well this is what I'm thinking as far as budget goes..... I can save up and buy whatever I decide, but before horns became a possibility I was looking to buy Dynaudio Esotecs (~$830), so maybe I will try to get the horns and woofers (and maybe tweeters if I decide to add them) for around the same cost. Obviously this is nothing solid, but I am only 18 so spending money is always bitter sweet.... Especially with college starting to approach.


- manual trans = easier to integrate mini bodies 
- hear close to 19kHz = mini by their size extends slightly higher than the big bodies 
- small center console in Hondas = can use either bodies without problem but the mini is slightly better suited. 

Based on the above, I would use the minis. 

Don't try to make it hard for yourself and just use horns for now. Tune it to the best you can and if you feel the need, then add a tweeter (10 years from now ) 

DRZ is a really good starting point. It's really up to you regarding the Ultras and the Pros. The Pros have an easier time playing higher than my CD1e v.3 and are much closer to the Ultras in sound. Ask Eric what he thinks...

Kelvin


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## thehatedguy

Oh if you don't mind cutting, I will post of some pictures of one of the THE best IASCA cars ever. It was a same style Civic that had a 3 way front stage using minihorns.


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## DaCid

subwoofery said:


> - small center console in Hondas = can use either bodies without problem but the mini is slightly better suited.
> 
> Kelvin


Pshhhh.... What's a center console? Take away the blue panel on the door and add the driver's seat, that's how the car has been driven for the past 3 months. The last time a console was in my car was 10 years ago, and hopefully will be back in by summer time.



> Ask Eric what he thinks...


Alright, I'll PM him today or tomorrow..



> Oh if you don't mind cutting, I will post of some pictures of one of the THE best IASCA cars ever. It was a same style Civic that had a 3 way front stage using minihorns.


I would love to see some pics! :surprised: I have developed a mindset of just jumping in with both feet and go for it. For example, today I just bought all the supplies to fiberglass a pillar pod for my voltmeter, I no nothing about glassing and no one that I know has experience in it so this should be interesting....  hahah


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## thehatedguy

This particular car was an automatic though.

But it should give you some ideas.

I'll post them up after the kids are in bed.


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## richiec77

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/96245-install-pics-horns.html

That's a good thread to browse thru. I think this is where thehatedguy posted up a bunch.


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## thehatedguy

Yeah, I put a few up there...but not these.


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## thehatedguy

Garage Shoei Civic from Japan


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## thehatedguy

Copy cat from Japan but with 6s rather than 5s and 8s.


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## thehatedguy

And yeah those are TAD super tweeters in the Shoei Civic's dash. Only used for RTA.


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## richiec77

:snacks::lurk:OOOOooooo

Holy crap that's impressive! I keep thinking more and more about working the dodge firewall since I have the space. And I'm looking into ways to remove the parking brake peddle assembly but still have a parking brake. (I tow so it's a must to keep the brake.)


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## thehatedguy

ƒKƒŒ�[ƒWƒVƒ‡ƒEƒGƒC�@“X‚Ìƒfƒ‚ƒJ�[

Click on the Civic for the rest of the install.


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## DaCid

*wiping drool* So nice!

Obviously this is out seeing as I have my clutch pedal to deal with, but those were so nice.  

I like that there was the beauty panel over the horns to make it look like it was supposed to be there. If I can't completely hide the horn I may try to make a similar panel, however thanks to Mr. Bateman I will be adding foam and PVC to the lip of my horns.

If I added a super tweet it would probably go in the sail panel since I am glassing my voltmeter into the a pillar on my side.


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## Mic10is

I tried to Copy the Shoei Civic for years

closest I got


















5s and 8s
Horns above it, actually mounted behind the factory Underdash panel so they cant be seen


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## DaCid

Well I haven't decided on any horns or mids yet. I've been preoccupied with my first fiberglass project. 

I am going to PM Eric today if I get the chance so we can talk about some horns. These are some mids that I have been looking at as possible buys, I'd love to hear what all of you think! 

Faital Pro 8FE200 Speakers - Faital Pro 8FE200 mid-bass, bass guitar speaker and woofer 8" speaker. Faital Pro 8FE200 260 watt 8" efficiency of 95dB SPL woofer for all high power mid-bass applications. Fa
These have a decent sensitivity level and can handle a good amount of power, plus they have a 4 ohm version!

8MB400 - MB Ferrite Driver
This is another strong 8" driver with the same sensitivity level, they can handle mounds of power  and I've only heard good things about them.

B&C 8PE21 8" Midrange Speaker 294-652
These have the best sensitivity level of the three, and they also can take a lot of power. I don't know much about them though..

Price is a factor of course, but if it comes down to quality..... I can figure out a way to shell out the extra cash.  I would love some feedback on what you think, or if you have any other drivers that you would like to mention!


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## subwoofery

DaCid said:


> Well I haven't decided on any horns or mids yet. I've been preoccupied with my first fiberglass project.
> 
> I am going to PM Eric today if I get the chance so we can talk about some horns. These are some mids that I have been looking at as possible buys, I'd love to hear what all of you think!
> 
> Faital Pro 8FE200 Speakers - Faital Pro 8FE200 mid-bass, bass guitar speaker and woofer 8" speaker. Faital Pro 8FE200 260 watt 8" efficiency of 95dB SPL woofer for all high power mid-bass applications. Fa
> These have a decent sensitivity level and can handle a good amount of power, plus they have a 4 ohm version!
> 
> 8MB400 - MB Ferrite Driver
> This is another strong 8" driver with the same sensitivity level, they can handle mounds of power  and I've only heard good things about them.
> 
> B&C 8PE21 8" Midrange Speaker 294-652
> These have the best sensitivity level of the three, and they also can take a lot of power. I don't know much about them though..
> 
> Price is a factor of course, but if it comes down to quality..... I can figure out a way to shell out the extra cash.  I would love some feedback on what you think, or if you have any other drivers that you would like to mention!


Where do you plan to install those? 
If in the doors, will it fit in factory location or do you need to go custom made panels? 
If custom, then go bigger and use 10" drivers... 

Kelvin


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## subwoofery

DaCid said:


> Well I haven't decided on any horns or mids yet. I've been preoccupied with my first fiberglass project.
> 
> I am going to PM Eric today if I get the chance so we can talk about some horns. These are some mids that I have been looking at as possible buys, I'd love to hear what all of you think!
> 
> Faital Pro 8FE200 Speakers - Faital Pro 8FE200 mid-bass, bass guitar speaker and woofer 8" speaker. Faital Pro 8FE200 260 watt 8" efficiency of 95dB SPL woofer for all high power mid-bass applications. Fa
> These have a decent sensitivity level and can handle a good amount of power, plus they have a 4 ohm version!
> 
> 8MB400 - MB Ferrite Driver
> This is another strong 8" driver with the same sensitivity level, they can handle mounds of power  and I've only heard good things about them.
> 
> B&C 8PE21 8" Midrange Speaker 294-652
> These have the best sensitivity level of the three, and they also can take a lot of power. I don't know much about them though..
> 
> Price is a factor of course, but if it comes down to quality..... I can figure out a way to shell out the extra cash.  I would love some feedback on what you think, or if you have any other drivers that you would like to mention!


To answer your question, the FS on the B&C is too high *IMO* to work well as a midbass+midrange driver... 
Other 2 look good... 

Here's a suggestion I made in another thread: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1498199-post39.html 
Good suggestions from other posters in the thread too... 

Kelvin


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## minbari

subwoofery said:


> To answer your question, *the FS on the B&C is too high IMO to work well as a midbass+midrange driver...*
> Other 2 look good...
> 
> Here's a suggestion I made in another thread: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1498199-post39.html
> Good suggestions from other posters in the thread too...
> 
> Kelvin


the ID xs65 works great as a midbass/midrange.....fs is about 80hz 

personally I think (and this is just me spitballing) that is the FS is closer to what you are going to use them for, they will play that range better. if you are going to cross off a midbass at 80 hz anyway, then having a midbass that diggs to 50 hz is not needed. in fact, it might actually help, since it will naturally roll off sooner.


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## richiec77

Definite no for the B&C 8PE21. It start it's 3dB roll off around 400-500HZ. So that's just not going to cut it for what you need that speaker to do. 

Look for something with a low Fs, and the ability to play down to atleast 100Hz, 80 would be better. 

B&C 8NDL51 8" Neodymium Woofer 294-649 The better choice from B&C

The 18 sound for sure. It's a good speaker. 

JBL 2118 or 2119 are also very good too. Just have to keep an eye out for them as they usually sell very quickly.


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## subwoofery

minbari said:


> the ID xs65 works great as a midbass/midrange.....fs is about 80hz
> 
> personally I think (and this is just me spitballing) that is the FS is closer to what you are going to use them for, they will play that range better. if you are going to cross off a midbass at 80 hz anyway, then having a midbass that diggs to 50 hz is not needed. in fact, it might actually help, since it will naturally roll off sooner.


Yeah I know, used it for 2 years before swapping it for a better driver  

FS of 80Hz for the X65 and I was HP around 100Hz 12dB/oct slope and worked great. Lower than that (even 80Hz @ 24dB), I could not make it work - could be the interior acoustic... but the midrange went all fuzzy and crazy on dynamic tracks. 
Really feel that an FS of 70Hz is the sweet spot (like the 2118H )

Kelvin


----------



## rawdawg

If I wasn't so afraid to cut up my car, I'd go 10's or 12's upfront if I could.

Just sayin'...


----------



## DaCid

I didn't even think to look at the Fs.... Ooops! hahah. Looking at them again, plus a few you guys have suggested I am thinking about the following:

18 Sound 8MB400: 95dB sensitivity makes it nice with the high power handling. It's fs is 64, and I think it's a pretty sexy driver.  The downside to me is it's 8 ohms.

the Ciare 8.5NDW: Even more efficient with 96.5dB sensitivity with fs of 75.7. It doesn't look bad, and it too, is 8 ohms.

ID x65: It has the lowest efficiency at 92dB, I don't know it's fs. I like that it is 4 ohms, and it's 6.5" so I can use the factory mount. I've heard a lot of good comments about this driver despite the sensitivity level.

I will be running the mids from 80hz - ~1.2khz. I found that my sub sounds the best if I cut it at 80, so I intend to keep it that way. 

Now I will be upgrading my amps for the midbasses and horns (I'm sure I can get better quality than my Kenwoods). What do you guys run? I'm wondering because I would think it must be a beefy amp to power the midbasses, especially if they are 8 ohms.



subwoofery said:


> Where do you plan to install those?
> If in the doors, will it fit in factory location or do you need to go custom made panels?
> If custom, then go bigger and use 10" drivers...
> 
> Kelvin


I am planning on installing them in the doors. If I got the X65 they would go straight to the stock location with my MDF spacer. It I got a 8" it would require a new spacer, and potentially a little trimming around the factory location to fit it in. 

Also if I use a 8" driver, I will most likely try to make some custom door cards down the road. How they were made, they cut a bit of the speaker off just with the 6.5" drivers, I was going to just help direct the speaker directly into a custom grill I am making. But if I have the 8", I think too much of the woofer will be blocked by the main card, so that will be something to consider.


----------



## DaCid

rawdawg said:


> If I wasn't so afraid to cut up my car, I'd go 10's or 12's upfront if I could.
> 
> Just sayin'...


I see Kelvin would agree, at least with fitting 10's up front.

When I think about that though, it seems that it would be some big bass, but I don't picture it having strong imaging and quality. Does that make sense? It just seems I would be installing two additional subs up front to me..... Now if either of you would like to interject and argue against that, I would love to hear it.  I love learning!


----------



## mattyjman

DaCid said:


> I see Kelvin would agree, at least with fitting 10's up front.
> 
> When I think about that though, it seems that it would be some big bass, but I don't picture it having strong imaging and quality. Does that make sense? It just seems I would be installing two additional subs up front to me..... Now if either of you would like to interject and argue against that, I would love to hear it.  I love learning!


so you think a larger speaker would image poorer than a smaller diameter driver? 

what makes you think size dictates what frequencies the speaker plays... 

i'll be using 10's for my mid/midbass duty, and 8's for subs... hows that for your logic? 

my subs will image better than my mid/midbass drivers  haha...

not being mean, but i thought that was funny. 


in all seriousness, i don't think size has anything to do with it...

in fact, patrick bateman has recommended getting midrange drivers the size of the horn mouth to help match the polar response of both drivers... something like that. 

what a larger driver does allow you to do is to carry much more weight and dynamic impact through the entire musical spectrum... 

have you ever been to a concert? got that kick in your chest... a lot of that would come from higher frequencies. the type that would be in the midbass register


----------



## richiec77

There's a definite correlation between size and lower frequencies. You can't expect a tweeter size speaker to be able to produce a 20Hz tone. And the inverse is definitely true. Material technology is helping to bridge the gap and make it less of one, but there's still a definite physical limitation to what a speaker can play. 

That being said, it really just depends on the speaker more than anything that will dictate what it can play. His Example of a 10" playing mid-bass/mid-range and an 8" playing sub duties does happen. Look at that 1st 8" speaker you choose. There's 5 1/4" speakers that can play lower better. But they suffer due to extra weight of suspension, VC mass, the magnetic force to control the speaker...etc. 

Where I could believe imaging issues would be due to the extra diameter not allowing the speaker to be placed optimally. That's it.


----------



## DaCid

It's not that I think bigger diameter drivers don't image as well as smaller diameter drivers.... I've just noticed that when I've listened to some different size speakers, as the size gets larger, it sometimes loses better high frequency response but shows off some more low frequency response that wasn't there before. Am I making sense? I don't really know how to explain what I was thinking.....

I think I get what you are saying though, if you get a quality 10" it will just bring more dynamic impact to the listening experience than if it was a 6.5" driver due to the ability to move more air..... Right? 

I personally wouldn't like to install a 10" in my door... One because it would be a major PITA, but also because I don't think they look good there. It seems very out of place and over proportioned for being up front. My aesthetic perfectionist side gets the better of me. hahah. But if I were to hear a setup like this and it blew my mind, then maybe I could get over that part.


----------



## minbari

If you look above you're post you will see, the x65 has an fs of 80.

Obviously 95DB is better than 92DB but it is more sensitive than most 6.5". I am using them with my horns and they seem to blend nicely, but no doubt, you have turn the horns down, lol

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk


----------



## DaCid

minbari said:


> If you look above you're post you will see, the x65 has an fs of 80.
> 
> Obviously 95DB is better than 92DB but it is more sensitive than most 6.5". I am using them with my horns and they seem to blend nicely, but no doubt, you have turn the horns down, lol
> 
> Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk


What do you use for x-over points with them? As I stated above, I am looking to run mine from 80hz-1.2khz. If the fs is 80 on the x65, would having them play down to 80 in my setup make them sound more strained than say the 18sound woofers with a fs of 64?

*Disclaimer: I do not know much about fs, qes, re, qts, etc...*


----------



## richiec77

It's best to not cross a system over at it's Resonate Frequency. (That's what Fs stands for)So you'd want to cross them over higher. No more than where the 3dB drop/dip starts to happen.

Another great speaker to check out is the Image Dynamics x69. It's a 6x9 speaker so it'll fit in a location that you can just barely NOT fit an 8" so it's an option. 

Let me see if I can find something on Theil-Small parameters so you can do some reading and follow along with us better. 

Oh. Also, check on Amazon. Amazon.com: Loudspeaker Design Cookbook (9781882580101): Vance Dickason: Books This book will be good to read once you have a handle on how speakers basically function...I had a Radio Shack book that was great for the basics and some advance functions. 

Thiele / Small (T/S) Speaker Parameters
Thiele/Small - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Something more advance and you've seen mentioned
Understanding Power Compression - SSA Car Audio Forum
Engineering Acoustics/Bass Reflex Enclosure Design - Wikibooks, open books for an open world

Basically you'll start to understand what each parameter represents and how it can translate into a function in real life. BUT it's not the end all, be all. Like power compression might only be 1.2dB for the 18 Sound driver at 300W, but the B&C being 3dB more sensitive might end up suffering like 4dB of compression at 250W. It's all a numbers game.

Basic fast and dry: 
1.) The largest speaker that can fit in the location you want to install them in. (i.e. an 8" will fit)
2.) Then choose a budget you can work with (Say $300 for speakers)
3.) and then find a pro-audio line with high-sensitivity. 

On Sensitivity: I'll just put up what Eric and I talked about when looking at the 18 Sound speaker.


> More efficient isnt always better if it comes at the trade off of reducing the bandwidth too much. (wont play low enough). You want a midbass not a midrange so just make sure its intended for bass duties to below 100 Hz.
> 
> Eric


And I forget where, but sensitivity is measured at 2.83V/1M. So an 8 ohm speaker with a sensitivity of 95 and a 4 ohm speaker with a sensitivity of 95: the 8Ohm driver is more sensitive. (Basically the resistance was cut in 1/2, but the sensitivity didn't increase)

Sorry if there's a ton of info being thrown at you at once.


----------



## richiec77

DaCid said:


> *Disclaimer: I do not know much about fs, qes, re, qts, etc...*


WOW! I never noticed this function, but it's pretty sweet! Check out the abbreviations you typed in. If you click on it, there's a 12VDC Glossary of Terms.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/glossary/?do=showcat&catid=1


----------



## DaCid

Wow, I guess I have some homework for tonight.... 



richiec77 said:


> WOW! I never noticed this function, but it's pretty sweet! Check out the abbreviations you typed in. If you click on it, there's a 12VDC Glossary of Terms.
> 
> 12v Glossary - vBulletin-Glossar - DIYMA.com - Scientific Car Audio - Truth in Sound Quality


How have I not seen this before?! I'll be keeping this on tab! :laugh:

After looking at all the specs of the 18 Sound driver it seems to be the front runner for me. I don't see any issues with it (yet). I'll reevaluate it after I read up on my parameters, but it has good sensitivity and 8 ohms so it should be more efficient with less power (I've been reading up on 8 ohm vs. 4 ohm), it can handle plenty of power, and the fs is 64, so I should be able to cross it over down at 80hz without a problem.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of the above, but I'm starting to like this driver.


----------



## thehatedguy

Keep in mind that an 8 will have nearly double the surface area of a 6.5. Then you pick up another 3-4 dB on top of that...

Just because the speakers are large has no, zero effect on how they can be used. In the proaudio world, 10s are good starting points for midranges and 15s are good midbasses.

What you need to familiarize yourself with is Hoffman's Iron Law.

If it were me, I would be getting the largest cone up there that I could fit and make look good. A 10 playing midrange and midbass makes for very very fun times.


----------



## richiec77

Oh yeah. That's the Sd parameter? Right?

I'm hoping to eventually be able to squeeze some 10" speakers in the doors of the RAM and then fit some 8" in the Kickpanels. Or what was that old school JBL 10" everyone with the top rides use to run? The Speakerwerks GN, The Accura...I think it was like 2208? I'd love to eventually rebuild the doors with 10" and then get some better higher freq 8"

And then win the lotto and get some TAD drivers for my horns. LOL.


----------



## DaCid

thehatedguy said:


> What you need to familiarize yourself with is Hoffman's Iron Law.


More homework! :laugh: 

I was reading up on Power compression, and I get what it is. The question I would ask when looking at the 18 Sound driver is what they measured the power compression by, I am guessing thermal compression but it's a total guess. It's BL was 9.3tm, I don't know if that would classify as *low* or not (I don't know what tm stands for in measurements, and I'm not finding it on google yet.). 

I'd like to just thank all of you for your input throughout this thread, it is helping me to learn and better understand audio.  I messaged Eric today and once we are able to talk about horn selection, I will be sure to post it on here!


----------



## thehatedguy

The GN had 12s in the rear quarter panels for midbass- JBL 2204hs.

Harry's old Acura had 10s on the rear deck- JBL 2134hs.

If you are going to spend the cash after winning the lottery, why stop at something as ordinary as TAD? Pony up for GOTO Unit or ALE drivers from Japan. Or find a way to put Western Electric 555s in there...field coil and all.



richiec77 said:


> Oh yeah. That's the Sd parameter? Right?
> 
> I'm hoping to eventually be able to squeeze some 10" speakers in the doors of the RAM and then fit some 8" in the Kickpanels. Or what was that old school JBL 10" everyone with the top rides use to run? The Speakerwerks GN, The Accura...I think it was like 2208? I'd love to eventually rebuild the doors with 10" and then get some better higher freq 8"
> 
> And then win the lotto and get some TAD drivers for my horns. LOL.


----------



## thehatedguy

Hoffman's Iron law says you can have band width, efficiency, or small enclosure size...pick the 2 you want.




DaCid said:


> More homework! :laugh:
> 
> I was reading up on Power compression, and I get what it is. The question I would ask when looking at the 18 Sound driver is what they measured the power compression by, I am guessing thermal compression but it's a total guess. It's BL was 9.3tm, I don't know if that would classify as *low* or not (I don't know what tm stands for in measurements, and I'm not finding it on google yet.).
> 
> I'd like to just thank all of you for your input throughout this thread, it is helping me to learn and better understand audio.  I messaged Eric today and once we are able to talk about horn selection, I will be sure to post it on here!


----------



## minbari

DaCid said:


> What do you use for x-over points with them? As I stated above, I am looking to run mine from 80hz-1.2khz. If the fs is 80 on the x65, would having them play down to 80 in my setup make them sound more strained than say the 18sound woofers with a fs of 64?
> 
> *Disclaimer: I do not know much about fs, qes, re, qts, etc...*


I run mine at 80hz LR 24db/oct. since LR alignment is -3db at the crossover point, it is enough below the FS that is doesnt hurt anything.


----------



## ErinH

I'm sub'ing to this. 

Lately, all the talk of horns and pro audio drivers has been catching my attention. I hate starting all over on the learning scale.


----------



## Eric Stevens

DaCid said:


> Kelvin, would you mind expanding on why the mini bodies would better suit me?


I think Kelvin was eluding to the fact the MH horns have more top end than the full size. This is due to less air load and one or two other factors.

I prefer the full size V.2 overall the best but both can sound excellent with differences in the imaging department. 

Eric


----------



## Eric Stevens

thehatedguy said:


> And yeah those are TAD super tweeters in the Shoei Civic's dash. Only used for RTA.


I had them on second trip when they had their own amp and crossover  

Eric


----------



## Eric Stevens

With a clutch in that car just move the wires and cut the KP and mount the horns far left and right and as far back as possible.

Doing this with the MH makes it real easy to get to the clutch and sounds good too!

Eric


----------



## DaCid

Yeah, for the ease of installation and for slightly more top end output I will go with some mini bodies.  

I haven't decided on the horn drivers yet though. If you have any input Eric, I would love to hear it!  

I'm 90% sure I'll be getting the 18 sound MB400 drivers for the doors, they just keep getting more attractive! :laugh:

After the install I may experiment with my junky JL tweets to see if I prefer a super tweet or not, if I decide it's a good touch I'll pick up a nice set of super tweets.  but this can wait.


----------



## Eric Stevens

I have the PRO and Ultra drivers available. If you like an airy top end go for the Ultra. I will PM you about these.

Eric


----------



## DaCid

Eric Stevens said:


> I have the PRO and Ultra drivers available. If you like an airy top end go for the Ultra. I will PM you about these.
> 
> Eric


Cool that would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## mattyjman

bikinpunk said:


> I'm sub'ing to this.
> 
> Lately, all the talk of horns and pro audio drivers has been catching my attention. I hate starting all over on the learning scale.


i'm sure you have heard some cars at competitions with horns... what's your take?


----------



## thehatedguy

Honestly, he probably hasn't heard many if any at any shows.


----------



## ErinH

mattyjman said:


> i'm sure you have heard some cars at competitions with horns... what's your take?





thehatedguy said:


> Honestly, he probably hasn't heard many if any at any shows.


You're right. I've heard a couple but they didn't impress me, honestly. 

The thing is, though, as we all hang around this hobby more and learn more we feel more confident in our ability to make things better. So, that said, I'm not hanging all my confidence in the ability of a pro audio type setup really dictate my desire to try it out because I'd have to get hands on and try to set up a system myself before I wrote it off altogether.

But, Jason is right, I've not heard a lot... probably about 3-4 that I'm aware of and none of them really blew me away. 

I'd like to try horns myself but the idea of not using a pro audio mid seems kind of odd and thereinlies my issue: I've yet to have a pro-audio mid work in the manner I want it to. It gets back to Hoffman's Iron Law and you just can't cross a nominally sized pro-audio midrange in to midbass territory successfully; not without some work. I've tried 3 so far myself and have found this to be true each time. 
So, to me it's a tradeoff of low end out of a 7-8" pro-audio midrange or sensitivity mismatch between standard audio driver and horn.


----------



## DaCid

I have briefly thought about running a separate midbass and midrange up front with the horns... But that would inevitably mean I would have to put one in the kicks, and I don't really like the idea of cramming my legs in between the horns and a kick speaker to drive. It would have to be a compact kick panel....


----------



## thehatedguy

Erin, go search for Isiris on HTGuide's DIY section. It didn't use HE mids with the compression driver, and when it was demoed in Atlanta meet, everyone said it was truly outstanding.


----------



## Mic10is

bikinpunk said:


> You're right. I've heard a couple but they didn't impress me, honestly.
> 
> The thing is, though, as we all hang around this hobby more and learn more we feel more confident in our ability to make things better. So, that said, I'm not hanging all my confidence in the ability of a pro audio type setup really dictate my desire to try it out because I'd have to get hands on and try to set up a system myself before I wrote it off altogether.
> 
> But, Jason is right, I've not heard a lot... probably about 3-4 that I'm aware of and none of them really blew me away.
> 
> I'd like to try horns myself but the idea of not using a pro audio mid seems kind of odd and thereinlies my issue: I've yet to have a pro-audio mid work in the manner I want it to. It gets back to Hoffman's Iron Law and you just can't cross a nominally sized pro-audio midrange in to midbass territory successfully; not without some work. I've tried 3 so far myself and have found this to be true each time.
> So, to me it's a tradeoff of low end out of a 7-8" pro-audio midrange or sensitivity mismatch between standard audio driver and horn.


Im still not sold on the Pro Audio mid use either. Hundreds of competitors have used HLCD successfully with regular conventional mids---Few that I know of and/or remember used Pro audio mids.

There are obvious advantages to using PA mids, like similar efficiency to make it easier to match to the horn, but as Erin said it also comes at a big sacrifice of anything thats of reasonable size for a vehicle install, wont play past 80 or 100hz well.


----------



## richiec77

Oh....This is an interesting way to look at this. Is it because of the possible trade-off pro-audio makes for volume/loudness vs fine details? 

OK. Typical installs for regular drivers are usually 3-4way set-ups. 3-way without a tweeter are semi-rare. Why wouldn't it be a decent idea to follow suit but using pro-audio type speakers? Say a good 8" that does play well into the midbass/sub region but doesn't extend up to say around 6-800Hz. Then a dedicated mid-range for that duty as we've seen some 6 1/2"-8" speakers that play only down to about 275-350Hz, but have massive efficiency. In the range of 98-101 dB. Basically getting back to that Japaneses Civic.

I remember seeing some of the older cars used JBL. Then a couple years went by and it was Dynaudio. Now it's stuff like B&C, 18 Sound, JBL still.

And then there's the discussions about Mid-bass needed excursion more than efficiency to work well at their intended roll.


----------



## subwoofery

richiec77 said:


> Oh....This is an interesting way to look at this. Is it because of the possible trade-off pro-audio makes for volume/loudness vs fine details?
> 
> OK. Typical installs for regular drivers are usually 3-4way set-ups. 3-way without a tweeter are semi-rare. Why wouldn't it be a decent idea to follow suit but using pro-audio type speakers? Say a good 8" that does play well into the midbass/sub region but doesn't extend up to say around 6-800Hz. Then a dedicated mid-range for that duty as we've seen some 6 1/2"-8" speakers that play only down to about 275-350Hz, but have massive efficiency. In the range of 98-101 dB. Basically getting back to that Japaneses Civic.
> 
> I remember seeing some of the older cars used JBL. Then a couple years went by and it was Dynaudio. Now it's stuff like B&C, 18 Sound, JBL still.
> 
> And then there's the discussions about Mid-bass needed excursion more than efficiency to work well at their intended roll.


If you have a 2 doors car, you can "easily" go bigger on the midbasses. 
I still need to finish my front subwoofer enclosure but when I'll feel like it, I'll try rear quarter panel mounted midbasses. Trying to find something not too deep like the 13.5" PR330M0 pro woofer from Audax  Way too expensive right now though... 6.5" 100dB Audax in the kicks to mate with the 13.5" 

Kelvin


----------



## ErinH

Honestly, to me, using horns as pretty much a tweeter seems wasteful. I'd rather run them low than use them in the same passbands as I would a tweeter. I know that sounds weird but that's just my knee jerk reaction. 

Not to say home audio guys don't live them some waveguides... Just don't recall seeing them crossed higher than 2khz. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


----------



## thehatedguy

Elridge, Richard Clark/Speaker Works, Harry Kimura...they all used pro midbasses and horns. Fazza is using pro midbasses and conventional mids/highs recently, and this was the best the Civic sounded IMO.

I would say the opposite...the most memorable horn cars aside from Shoei used pro midbasses.

The early IDQ8s were pretty close to pro audio midbasses.

Conventional/commercial drivers just can't get down and slap you in your face like pro drivers will. You want you home stereo feel in the car, use home stereo speakers...want that live feel, use those kinds of speakers. 



Mic10is said:


> Im still not sold on the Pro Audio mid use either. Hundreds of competitors have used HLCD successfully with regular conventional mids---Few that I know of and/or remember used Pro audio mids.
> 
> There are obvious advantages to using PA mids, like similar efficiency to make it easier to match to the horn, but as Erin said it also comes at a big sacrifice of anything thats of reasonable size for a vehicle install, wont play past 80 or 100hz well.


----------



## thehatedguy

It wasn't until everyone wanted to run their front stage to 30 hertz that pro mids fell out of favor.


----------



## Mic10is

thehatedguy said:


> Elridge, Richard Clark/Speaker Works, Harry Kimura...they all used pro midbasses and horns. Fazza is using pro midbasses and conventional mids/highs recently, and this was the best the Civic sounded IMO.
> 
> I would say the opposite...the most memorable horn cars aside from Shoei used pro midbasses.
> 
> The early IDQ8s were pretty close to pro audio midbasses.
> 
> Conventional/commercial drivers just can't get down and slap you in your face like pro drivers will. You want you home stereo feel in the car, use home stereo speakers...want that live feel, use those kinds of speakers.


or could be bc when those guys were competing thats what was more readily available...guys were still using Home and PA subs in Big cabinets for subwoofers as well.

Les, Joe Amore, Brantley Miller, Shoei, Jason Shoefstall, and Im sure Im forgetting a ton more, all ran conventional speakers with horns.

and Steve has the JBLs in the Truck---Civic is long gone. and even at ESN, while the Civic sounded really good, I preferred the sound of the Truck


----------



## Eric Stevens

It's efficiency or bandwidth can't have both, we are aided somewhat by the transfer function of the small space we are working in. The highest efficiency IMHO that will work well to 70/80 range is 91/92 for a 6.5 and 93/94 for an 8". 

IDQ8 was a little lower than the above and was well liked by many but not as good as some special drivers I had built that were in the 92dB range back then. 

For those that want to cross to the subs at 50 high efficiency and life like dynamics are probably not their cup of tea anyways and want pleasant Yanni to listen to 

Eric


----------



## mattyjman

Eric Stevens said:


> For those that want to cross to the subs at 50 high efficiency and life like dynamics are probably not their cup of tea anyways and want pleasant Yanni to listen to
> 
> Eric


Yuck :laugh:


----------



## Mic10is

Eric Stevens said:


> It's efficiency or bandwidth can't have both, we are aided somewhat by the transfer function of the small space we are working in. The highest efficiency IMHO that will work well to 70/80 range is 91/92 for a 6.5 and 93/94 for an 8".
> 
> IDQ8 was a little lower than the above and was well liked by many but not as good as some special drivers I had built that were in the 92dB range back then.
> 
> For those that want to cross to the subs at 50 high efficiency and life like dynamics are probably not their cup of tea anyways and want pleasant Yanni to listen to
> 
> Eric


....im pretty sure you were using Yanni to tune my car when I met you....


----------



## ErinH

I don't want a "home sound" and I don't want a "live sound". I want a realistic sound. That's the ultimate goal.. At least for me. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


----------



## thehatedguy

Mark ran the JBLs right up until he sold the 4 Runner...that was what, mid 2000s?

Not to take anything away from any of the old ID guys, but none of them outside of Eric's old Sable is as lasting or memorable than the guys I listed above. All of the cars were nice but life-like dynamics they could not do. My Accord was so much louder than any of the cars you listed.

In regards to the subs...the IDW15 is a proaudio woofer .

I know the JBLs are in the truck now, but the Civic when it was out last was the best that car had ever sounded in the 10 years that I had heard it.

You just aren't going to have a consumer grade speaker reach out and touch you like a higher efficiency/pro speaker will do. I haven't ever flinched at a snare drum being hit in any car BUT the ones that had high efficiency large drivers.

That's a realistic sound. NO direct radiating 4 can create that event, nor can they realistically reproduce the dynamics of a piano.



Mic10is said:


> or could be bc when those guys were competing thats what was more readily available...guys were still using Home and PA subs in Big cabinets for subwoofers as well.
> 
> Les, Joe Amore, Brantley Miller, Shoei, Jason Shoefstall, and Im sure Im forgetting a ton more, all ran conventional speakers with horns.
> 
> and Steve has the JBLs in the Truck---Civic is long gone. and even at ESN, while the Civic sounded really good, I preferred the sound of the Truck


----------



## Mic10is

thehatedguy said:


> Mark ran the JBLs right up until he sold the 4 Runner...that was what, mid 2000s?
> 
> Not to take anything away from any of the old ID guys, but none of them outside of Eric's old Sable is as lasting or memorable than the guys I listed above. All of the cars were nice but life-like dynamics they could not do. My Accord was so much louder than any of the cars you listed.
> 
> In regards to the subs...the IDW15 is a proaudio woofer .
> 
> I know the JBLs are in the truck now, but the Civic when it was out last was the best that car had ever sounded in the 10 years that I had heard it.
> 
> You just aren't going to have a consumer grade speaker reach out and touch you like a higher efficiency/pro speaker will do. I haven't ever flinched at a snare drum being hit in any car BUT the ones that had high efficiency large drivers.
> 
> That's a realistic sound. NO direct radiating 4 can create that event, nor can they realistically reproduce the dynamics of a piano.


I do agree with you on many points espec bc I absolutely love my IDWs and am not happy that Lori gets to drive around listening to them and I dont.....

But in general aural memory isnt the greatest sense for remembering things, plus tastes change and evolves.

so at the time, The Shoei Civic was the BEST car I had heard. But Im not sure what my impression of it would be now that my tastes have changed and my knowledge has increased.

So I think things are somewhat relative to the time, situation and person you are at the time. I'm sure if you were to go back and listen to them again, then it could be a totally different experience.


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## richiec77

Boils down to displacement and impact from a lightweight motor/cone assembly. Concerts and live performances are the only time I've really felt a drum impact. I'm hoping to get to that point again. I'm thinking the best way to achieve that is large mid-bass in the door, 8" Mid-range in the Kickpanel, and work the firewall/wheelwell area to fit a 1.4"-2" compression driver and hope I can get a full size horn to fit well.


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## bigbubba

thehatedguy said:


> The early IDQ8s were pretty close to pro audio midbasses.


Glad to hear that considering that those are what I have and fixin' to put in my Monte along with my ID waveguides.


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## thehatedguy

There were ISQ8s floating around with paper cones and accordian surrounds.


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## ErinH

FWIW, we're all talking about high efficiency mids being used in ap configurations. AP lowers sensitivity a large bit. Especially if the qtc of the driver is high and the end Q is very low. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## mitchyz250f

I bought a set of the IDQ8's with the paper cones and accordion surrounds about 7 years ago and never used them. How much better are they then the poly cones?


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## mattyjman

bikinpunk said:


> FWIW, we're all talking about high efficiency mids being used in ap configurations. AP lowers sensitivity a large bit. Especially if the qtc of the driver is high and the end Q is very low.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


i'm not sure most are even using ap alignments... i would say that most are ib, or at least stuck in a leaky door.


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## ErinH

mattyjman said:


> i'm not sure most are even using ap alignments... i would say that most are ib, or at least stuck in a leaky door.


Some do. I don't pretend to know them all but I know a lot of times I read about someone using pro mids in the kicks, they're vented AP. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## Eric Stevens

Mic10is said:


> ....im pretty sure you were using Yanni to tune my car when I met you....


Oh Man now your giving away the secrets 

Eric


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## Eric Stevens

bikinpunk said:


> I don't want a "home sound" and I don't want a "live sound". I want a realistic sound. That's the ultimate goal.. At least for me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


Yep goal should be to sound as if it's a live performance not being reproduced. I have heard a system that came close but still was short of pulling it off, did commendably with solo instruments and simple recordings but could never come close to the experience of live LA Philharmonic 8 th row center.

Dynamic range is one of the keys and efficiency is more effective than high power. 

Nothing like it sounding as if someone's in front of you ripping on a stand double bass. Or Jim Keltner is personally doing a drum solo for you. When he hits rim shots on the snare it should feel like your face is getting slapped! Sable did the dynamics and tonality parts very well but didnt create a sound stage with the same realism. Shoei Civic did well with Dynamics and nailed the realism in tonality and staging aspects but the dynamics weren't up to the Sable.

When a system starts to approach realism is when it truly becomes a listening experience rather than just listening enjoyment.

Eric


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## DaCid

I would kill to hear a great car like the sable or shoei civic, heck I would love to just hear a decent system.....

In my town there are two types of systems: A crappy sub in a ghetto box being overworked with a $50 set of coaxials in the rear deck.. OR: Higher end equipment with no EQ's, and no feeling of realism or of any kind of sound stage.


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## thehatedguy

Drums...

My old boss was a drummer and invented me over to his house one day to help move some things. While over there, he ripped a few runs off on the set with me standing 3-4 feet a way. It was at that moment I realized exactly how "real" real sounded and felt...and how the path I was experimenting with would never work.

Erin, if you are going for complete realism- ie tonality and tactile, your system as it sits will never ever ever get you there. It may get you close on tonality, but the tactile part of the equation will never happen. IMO you are going to have to retrain your ears on what to listen for and what is good.


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## ErinH

You act as if I don't have friends in metal bands and I'm not a cousin of Randy Travis. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## stereo_luver

bikinpunk said:


> You act as if I don't have friends in metal bands and I'm not a cousin of Randy Travis.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


You have friends?

Chuck


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## ErinH

Twelve. I can count them on one foot. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## DaCid

thehatedguy said:


> Drums...
> 
> My old boss was a drummer and invented me over to his house one day to help move some things. While over there, he ripped a few runs off on the set with me standing 3-4 feet a way. It was at that moment I realized exactly how "real" real sounded and felt...and how the path I was experimenting with would never work.


Hmm. I have been around drums for awhile now since my sister learned to play years ago, but I've never observed the feeling or sound... I've always just concentrated on how to play by watching her, but today I listened again and I see what you mean. You get that crisp sound of the snare with each hit and that kick in your chest from the bass drum... 

Now this will probably come off as a dumb question but I'd rather ask and know than wonder.... Is the reason people like 8", 10", or even 12" drivers up front for the midbass because they have more surface area to move more air, and that allows them to try and replicate that same "kick" in the chest and "slap" of the snare with force?


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## fish

DaCid said:


> Is the reason people like 8", 10", or even 12" drivers up front for the midbass because they have more surface area to move more air, and that allows them to try and replicate that same "kick" in the chest and "slap" of the snare with force?



Larger drivers sure do help make a diiference in the impact department.


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## minbari

larger drivers can also be more sensitive. more cone area = more sound. when trying to mate up to a 108+db 1w/1m horn, this is important.


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## DaCid

minbari said:


> larger drivers can also be more sensitive. more cone area = more sound. when trying to mate up to a 108+db 1w/1m horn, this is important.


Yeah, that's true. Ive been looking at install photos and various websites, and it's making me want to try fitting two drivers in! Haha. I would love to squeeze a 10" in my door with 8"s in the kicks, but I don't think kicks will work with my clutch. So at the moment I'm thinking one 8" in the door, plus that would make it easier to get amps to run everything and should be easier to tune accurately.


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## minbari

yup, I agree. my plan is for dual x65s once my system is finished. double the power plus double the cone area will mean 6db more sound added to the 92db sensitivity. 98 db is as good as any 8"


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## Metal Guru

DaCid said:


> Now this will probably come off as a dumb question but I'd rather ask and know than wonder.... Is the reason people like 8", 10", or even 12" drivers up front for the midbass because they have more surface area to move more air, and that allows them to try and replicate that same "kick" in the chest and "slap" of the snare with force?


Logically (well, my logic anyway ), this seems to make sense.

The way I see it is like this: the diameter of a standard snare drum is 14". Using my crazy logic, a 14" midrange (unrealistic in most cars) would be ideal to reproduce true-to-life snare drum impact. It's either that, or use multiple smaller drivers, which to me is not an ideal solution due to comb filtering and other nasty things. I want to try the next best thing: fitting the largest midrange I can in my car, which is most likely 10".

There's a reason why they use large drivers in pro audio - it's not just for looks


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## BigRed

Here is a frequency response done on Eric's new horns in my garage at 3 feet out playing full range. pretty impressive


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## richiec77

BigRed said:


> Here is a frequency response done on Eric's new horns in my garage at 3 feet out playing full range. pretty impressive


New horns......interesting. Are they a Full size or Mini-size design?


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## BigRed

full size


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## bigbubba

BigRed said:


> Here is a frequency response done on Eric's new horns in my garage at 3 feet out playing full range. pretty impressive


New horns as in, the last ones he made before leaving ID or new as in he is starting a new buisness and this is one of his first batch? 

Please explain.


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## BigRed

These are Eric Steven's Audio horns. They have been available thru him directly for a little while now.


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## bigbubba

Interesting. I need to send Eric and email.


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## thehatedguy

Yeah Eric, what's up with them?


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## mattyjman

^ yes please?


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## thehatedguy

Eric keeping the good stuff secret again...


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## Eric Stevens

Big Red is using a set of the full size Ultra HLCD. This is the same V.2 horn I have always sold nothing new other than the Stevens Audio part of the equation.

If you need anything or have any questions please send a message.

Eric


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## Eric Stevens

thehatedguy said:


> Eric keeping the good stuff secret again...


Not a secret just a mystery 

Eric


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## Horsemanwill

don't make me and jason hunt you down


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## thehatedguy

I need 3 ESA 6s or 8s please


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## richiec77

ESA? Was that the cool custom 8" Mic had? The one that used the ID basket and cone, but Illusion motor?

THAT would be an awesome speaker to come out with Eric. People would like to fit speakers in their Kicks for better imaging if they'll fit.


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## Horsemanwill

just 3?


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## thehatedguy

No, that was a custom 8 made by ID for Mic. It used the motors from Illusion Nd-10s.



richiec77 said:


> ESA? Was that the cool custom 8" Mic had? The one that used the ID basket and cone, but Illusion motor?
> 
> THAT would be an awesome speaker to come out with Eric. People would like to fit speakers in their Kicks for better imaging if they'll fit.


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## subwoofery

Horsemanwill said:


> just 3?


Fronts + center  

Kelvin


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## bitperfect

I purchased a set of Eric's Stevens Audio full size Ultra HLCDs a while back, but haven't had time to complete the install. I have done some initial testing and I am liking them very much. 

It was a pleasure dealing with Eric. He even let me test fit the full bodies to see it I could fit them.


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## DaCid

I will be ordering some Steven's Audio Ultra Mini's in the coming month and cannot wait!  

I'm still debating on mids, there seems to be multiple choices from 18sound that are all very nice, and I just came across these in another thread. I don't know much about them yet, but for $37 they look pretty good.

Silver Flute W20RC38-04 ohm 8" Wool Cone: Madisound Speaker Store


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