# New Helix DSP Software Released Today



## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Helix has updated their DSP software, and released it today...

Can be downloaded here: DSP PC-Tool Version 4

*Version 4.70*

New start launcher has been added - the start window now offers a device info area as well as a new menu bar which gives access to several frequently used functions. The new buttons are offering the following functions (from top to bottom): Refresh connection, Options menu (manual ACO Update, manual driver installation, etc.), Connection switch (WIFI/USB), Change-Log history, keyboard shortcuts map, sound files for the integrated measurement systems, website link
Main - Advanced Import function has been implemented to import AFPX and REW files. The Advanced Import manager offers various adjustments as well as visualizes the importing data. By selecting the file type you can choose to import REW (.txt) or DSP PC-Tool tuning files (.afpx)
Main - The Output level graph has been reworked and now shows the outgoing level as RMS and Peak Hold value. The light blue bar will show the RMS value whereas the dark blue bar will show the Peak Hold value. The new Peak Hold value will show the highest output level within a 2 second time window. This will make it much easier to adjust the gain structure properly as it allows to get easier to the maximum unclipped output level. In addition the digit value beside the bar can be toggled between RMS and Peak Hold value by clicking on the small symbols on the right in the digit display.
Main - The ACO configuration will now also be stored directly when teh SAVE button has been used. After daving the unit can be directly disconnected from power and an additional power cycleis not needed anymore.
ISA - The Input Signal Analyzer got a new measurement option to measure low frequency high pass filters from factory sound systems between 25 Hz and 200 Hz. The new measurement range can be selected via the drop down menu in the ISA window and is called "Low - 25 Hz to 200 Hz".
ATM - The official public beta version of "Automatic Time Measurement" has been added. This is a completely new algorythm and function which allows the user to fully automatically set up the time alignment in a car for all speaker channels indepentend if these are active or passive speaker systems. The new function can be accessed by pressing "SHIFT" + "t" in any window. To use the function name ALL inputs and outputs correctly, make sure that a fullrange stereo signal is routed to analog input channels "A & B" or in case of VCP to Virtual Channels "Front Left" and "Front Right" and play the ATM test track from the SoundFiles folder. The microphone needs to be mounted in a fixed position at the the centered head position e.g. mounting the mic to the headrest facing upwords or in a 45° angle to the inner roof. At last make sure that the measurement volume is in the green/good marked area of the microphone level bar and click on the "Start" button. If necessary it is possible to select/unselect specific channels in the table of the new window.
BRAX DSP DiSAC volume control - New Gain-Offset options have been added for the BRAX DSPs DiSAC protocol have been added to allow a higher analog Gain inside the MX4 PRO by adding a gain offset to the analog signal domain. The option can be found in the BRAX DSP module configuration menu under the "DiSAC Volume Control" drop down menu. Beside the standard option with 0 dB new options with + 3dB, + 6dB and +9dB are available now. The adjustment can be individually configured for each output module.
ACO Updater - A new advanced ACO update program has been implemented which improves the update stability on slower computers
File manager - The default load and save directory has been changed to the 'User'/Documents directoy
Bugfixes - Loading an afpx file into a device which has VCP enabled will now display all Input and Output names on all menus correctly.
HELIX V EIGHT DSP MK2 - a bug has been fixed which caused all amplified channels to be reversed in polarity. After updating the software it might be necessary to check the polarity settings for the line outputs as these might need to be readjusted to match the correct polarity of the amplifier channels.
HELIX V EIGHT DSP MK2 - Line output channels I & J we reversed and are now correctly assigned
HELIX V TWELVE DSP - Class GD amplifier power supply control algorithm has been optimized
HELIX V TWELVE DSP - fixed a bug in the "ACO Features - ADEP.3 configuration"
HELIX DSP.3 - fixed a bug which could cause the InputEQ on input channel F to not work properly
MATCH PP 62DSP - Subwoofer output channel names have been renamed to properly work with the new ATM function
General - The internal memory slot 2 which gets deactivated in non-ACO products if a DIRECTOR is connected, got now properly renamed to visualize the reason for the deactivation.
General - ADEP.3 configuration set by default to "2 seconds"


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Tried the auto signal delay feature tonight in my car, and also did an auto eq along with it. Ill give it a listen over the next few days

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Dremgragen (Jul 14, 2008)

_jaw-drop emote_

AWESOME! I do not regret choosing Helix.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Bman427 (Feb 21, 2020)

I just want to know how to save a tune with a name and not have it revert to M-3546759. That and what exactly is a global save? 

Where can I find info on the WIFI app settings? Need to know what the different volume controls do... 

Would be nice to have a feature to help alert you when channels are linked other than the little squares. I have mistakenly had the wrong channel linked which is brutal when changing crossovers, ugh. The little squares would be much easier to identify if they were directly above the channel...not all the way to the right. Having the entire area above the channel change color would be way better.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Yeah, I've never liked those little squares either - it's way too easy to confuse which square is for which channel with the way they are positioned. It would be nice if the whole "Channel A" text went into a reverse video or something like that instead of the little boxes.


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## Bman427 (Feb 21, 2020)

exactly... I had my screen minimized just a little and it cut off the little box for the last channel. It's pretty critical when you have channels linked... much more important than a little ass box that has a check mark..lol


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## Bman427 (Feb 21, 2020)

On a positive note I just installed Steven's MB8-2's in my doors. System sounds incredible and gets stupid LOUD


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Bman427 said:


> I just want to know how to save a tune with a name and not have it revert to M-3546759. That and what exactly is a global save?
> 
> Where can I find info on the WIFI app settings? Need to know what the different volume controls do...
> 
> Would be nice to have a feature to help alert you when channels are linked other than the little squares. I have mistakenly had the wrong channel linked which is brutal when changing crossovers, ugh. The little squares would be much easier to identify if they were directly above the channel...not all the way to the right. Having the entire area above the channel change color would be way better.


What would you like to know about the WiFi control? I have one fitted and use the app also


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## Bman427 (Feb 21, 2020)

I dont understand these volume settings


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Bman427 said:


> I dont understand these volume settings


The sub volume basically changes the lower limit of the subwoofer slider...

And from memory I think the other adjustments with volumes are basically start up for each of the different sources, like the directors startup volume setting, I can check next time I’m in the car though, I think I set everything to none so it didn’t adjust anything on start up except for master which I set to -30db from memory

so I adjust all the three sources to full and just use the master volume to adjust volume overall of whichever source I use


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## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

You are Correct. Those are the startup volume settings for each input. 

And the Subwoofer setting will shorten the range for lower volume to the loudest. So according to the picture the sub volume will range from -10dB to 0dB.


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## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> Tried the auto signal delay feature tonight in my car, and also did an auto eq along with it. Ill give it a listen over the next few days


Did you include the sub channels in that auto signal delay? Curious to know how well you think it performs!


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## Speedhunter (Feb 21, 2020)

Sometimes i thing Helx DSPs are far ahead of other brands DSPs...is there any brand that can compete...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Speedhunter said:


> Sometimes i thing Helx DSPs are far ahead of other brands DSPs...is there any brand that can compete...


The only thing I can think of that helix doesn't beat is the dirac auto tune in the minidsp. But, it has the advantage in every other regard. Outside of that, I dont think anyone stacks up. I think i like Mosconi's controllers a hair more though, but they aren't as flexible. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## vette_werks (Oct 31, 2014)

I tried out the auto time alignment today just for giggles and it was ridiculously off. Probably user error, but I tried it a few times.

I wish there were better instructions because I don't really understand what to really do. I set my midrange as the measured distance anchor point on the left hand side. 

I used the Audiofrog mic, but maybe the Umik would be better suited. 

Perhaps the Helix doesn't like the eq settings on the channels and then time aligning after. 

Nevertheless, I am sure someone will chime in who knows how to use it and provide me with a dunce hat.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

I'd also be interested to hear from someone who has successfully implemented the Auto Time Alignment.
I haven't tried it (yet)... but I'm curious to see how accurate it is.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Can we get a little tutorial on how to do auto eq right? Also how do you use the wifi for tuning?


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

I tried autotune last night and it worked perfect. I chose he delay option not the distance so no numbers had to be input. Hit shift+T then a screen pops up. There is an option to use left midbass or right midbass for reference. I left it at the left midbass option. 
Then make sure there is a red X next to every speaker you plan on auto aligning. There won’t be an option to check or Uncheck the reference channel. 
Play the time align track, turn up the volume with all speakers playing the popping sounds and make sure the indicator for the volume is in the green.
Now hit start.
It will tell you what it is testing.
You will hear slight changes in the pop sounds when it is testing different speakers. After a few minutes all the new delays will populate and be added.

I must add I am having issues with the software. First time trying the auto time I thought it did a horrible job. Only to realize that it had placed a check in one of the speakers HP filters bypassing it. Reenabled it and it was perfect image. More focused than I’ve ever heard it. 

Second issue with the software update is a major issue. After updating and auto time alignment I restart my car and there is insane amount of engine noise, whine and even turning on the AC created more noise. I went to bed wanting to rip out all the car audio and walk away from the hobby.
This morning first thing I started the car and it was still bad. So I reverted back to the previous software and it was dead quiet. 
Loaded the tune which is yet another issue. Loading a tune would not place the name in the 1-10 slot list. It would show loaded with no name. So have to rename the tune in its slot and save it as a new file. Then all is good.
Played it while driving to gas station Start car back up and the insane engine noise is back. Went they the entire process of loading the old software again and saving and renaming. And noise is gone. For some reason The new software is making crazy engine noise happen. Doesn’t even seem possible that it could make that happen but it does. 
what Is the ACO driver? Because it updates this also after the software. Maybe it’s the aco driver that’s bad. I revert both back to the previous to rid the engine noise


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

dcfis said:


> Can we get a little tutorial on how to do auto eq right? Also how do you use the wifi for tuning?


You connect the laptop to helix via WiFi. Open the software and change it from usb to WiFi. After that tuning is all the same and done from a laptop.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Yeah, I've learned to wait a few weeks before using new Helix software updates (in fact I never even updated to the last significant update because I had issues when I initially tried and ended up reverting back since the new version was mainly for the Ultra). They usually end up releasing an update to address some significant issues pretty quickly...


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

I tried the auto time alignment and it was spot on in about 15 seconds, I like to do my own eq so I didn’t try the auto tune and my car is hybrid so I can’t comment on the engine noise issue


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

Are you all (auto) time aligning the subwoofer with it as well?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Mauian said:


> Are you all (auto) time aligning the subwoofer with it as well?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don’t have subs installed yet but I’ll have them in by next weekend


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Mauian said:


> Are you all (auto) time aligning the subwoofer with it as well?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can That is an option it has


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Mullings said:


> I tried the auto time alignment and it was spot on in about 15 seconds, I like to do my own eq so I didn’t try the auto tune and my car is hybrid so I can’t comment on the engine noise issue


Did you use distance or delay? Wondering how close it was to your measurements ?


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Selkec said:


> Did you use distance or delay? Wondering how close it was to your measurements ?


I used delay and it was perfect, The build is new and I had just put the pillars in but it’s as good as I’ve ever had It when the system was at its best, if the auto tune is with parametric filters now, then it’s gonna be a game changer.


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## Dremgragen (Jul 14, 2008)

I tried it today and while I'm unsure if it's perfect, it definitely chose better timings than I had. A/B with my mode switch between my TA and its TA, its TA was better. 

I had a hard time even getting it to pull up the automated TA window. Finally came up when I clicked on the RTA tab. I did the measurement and listened for a bit, liking what I heard except my passenger midbass seemed too quiet, so I looked and sure enough it said it was about 20" difference from my mid and tweeter which are next to it in the kick panel. I tried to pull the auto TA panel again to remeasure that channel and I couldn't get it to pull up.

CTRL+T right?


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Mullings said:


> I used delay and it was perfect, The build is new and I had just put the pillars in but it’s as good as I’ve ever had It when the system was at its best, *if the auto tune is with parametric filters now, then it’s gonna be a game changer.*


Hmm - that's the first I'm hearing of this (parametric auto-EQ) - is that something that is being worked on? Would be awesome if so....


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## toneloc2 (Nov 29, 2015)

Dremgragen said:


> I tried it today and while I'm unsure if it's perfect, it definitely chose better timings than I had. A/B with my mode switch between my TA and its TA, its TA was better.
> 
> I had a hard time even getting it to pull up the automated TA window. Finally came up when I clicked on the RTA tab. I did the measurement and listened for a bit, liking what I heard except my passenger midbass seemed too quiet, so I looked and sure enough it said it was about 20" difference from my mid and tweeter which are next to it in the kick panel. I tried to pull the auto TA panel again to remeasure that channel and I couldn't get it to pull up.
> 
> CTRL+T right?


shift + t


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## vette_werks (Oct 31, 2014)

Tried it again using the delay only, click track in the middle of the "good" area etc. Oddly it puts my midrange out of phase in my a pillar. If I flip the polarity (electrically) it seems to be ok and stages somewhat close to what I had using the tape measure, rta phase checks, and tone bursts. Just found it odd that it did a of phase change with the delay. 
Setup is a Brax Ml1 and focal 3w2 in the pillars, morel admw10 in the door, and 2 Audiomobile evos in the trunk to a psix mk2.

Unless you are grossly mis-measuring with a tape measure, I can't see it being that much better tbh. Nevertheless, I would still like to hear what others are experiencing because it sounds like it works just fine?


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

vette_werks said:


> Tried it again using the delay only, click track in the middle of the "good" area etc. Oddly it puts my midrange out of phase in my a pillar. If I flip the polarity (electrically) it seems to be ok and stages somewhat close to what I had using the tape measure, rta phase checks, and tone bursts. Just found it odd that it did a of phase change with the delay.
> Setup is a Brax Ml1 and focal 3w2 in the pillars, morel admw10 in the door, and 2 Audiomobile evos in the trunk to a psix mk2.
> 
> Unless you are grossly mis-measuring with a tape measure, I can't see it being that much better tbh. Nevertheless, I would still like to hear what others are experiencing because it sounds like it works just fine?


even a small .03ms in either direction can change the way it sounds. Just Measuring and inputting those numbers isn’t going to get you exact.
When I did A/B between auto and my time alignment it was more focused. 
The difference between Auto TA and mine was
left tweet +.02 right +.07
Left mid +.12 right +.04
Left midbass +.11


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Selkec said:


> even a small .03ms in either direction can change the way it sounds. Just Measuring and inputting those numbers isn’t going to get you exact.
> When I did A/B between auto and my time alignment it was more focused.
> The difference between Auto TA and mine was
> left tweet +.02 right +.07
> ...


Yes I can totally imagine. Because when I was still building and designing loudspeakers (for home) the difference in 2mm was heard easily when I had the drivers in seperate enclosures on top of eachother. So if the left mid or tweeter was a bit too close you could hear the difference. 
Also, when u timealign all drivers in a homespeaker (vertically!) you use the space between the voicecoil and front of magnat to allign, and NOT the front of a driver like ppl do in a car. So yes, the auto allignment in sound is definitely a better option in my opinion!... (unless you measure exactly to the right space inside the driver, which no one does)...


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Don Camillo said:


> Yes I can totally imagine. Because when I was still building and designing loudspeakers (for home) the difference in 2mm was heard easily when I had the drivers in seperate enclosures on top of eachother. So if the left mid or tweeter was a bit too close you could hear the difference.
> Also, when u timealign all drivers in a homespeaker (vertically!) you use the space between the voicecoil and front of magnat to allign, and NOT the front of a driver like ppl do in a car. So yes, the auto allignment in sound is definitely a better option in my opinion!... (unless you measure exactly to the right space inside the driver, which no one does)...


FINALLY! Someone agrees with me! Too many have argued that that small doesn’t matter.


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## Bman427 (Feb 21, 2020)

Selkec said:


> FINALLY! Someone agrees with me! Too many have argued that that small doesn’t matter.


I agree with you also, so now you have 2 members in your camp...lol. Too many keyboard warriors online, I would rather hear if for myself before I start recycling internet myths. Racing warriors are even worse than the car audio warriors... so my filter has already been finely tuned...lol


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

If you read the Audiofrog Tuning Guide, it explains (and shows) why you should use a tape measure to set time delay distances - set it and forget it. Adjusting the delays a little at a time will just cause you to end up with some frequencies that are centered, but all others won't be - and/or cancellation issues. Again, the guide explains _and_ shows what happens with actual sound measurements to help illustrate. You use levels to adjust center image, not time alignment.

Sound travels at the speed of sound - which is why measurements are always correct for setting time alignment.

Read the section labeled "Setting Delays". It's not wrong (just as the tape measure isn't wrong). 

Here is a link to the tuning guide in case you haven't already seen it:

https://testgear.audiofrog.com/wp-c...Process-and-Some-Notes-About-Why-it-Works.pdf


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

jtrosky said:


> If you read the Audiofrog Tuning Guide, it explains (and shows) why you should use a tape measure to set time delay distances - set it and forget it. Adjusting the delays a little at a time will just cause you to end up with some frequencies that are centered, but all others won't be - and/or cancellation issues. Again, the guide explains _and_ shows what happens with actual sound measurements to help illustrate. You use levels to adjust center image, not time alignment.
> 
> Sound travels at the speed of sound - which is why measurements are always correct for setting time alignment.
> 
> ...


The idea is you are not very accurate using a tape measure.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

opekone said:


> The idea is you are not very accurate using a tape measure.


EXACTLY!!!


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

jtrosky said:


> If you read the Audiofrog Tuning Guide, it explains (and shows) why you should use a tape measure to set time delay distances - set it and forget it. Adjusting the delays a little at a time will just cause you to end up with some frequencies that are centered, but all others won't be - and/or cancellation issues. Again, the guide explains _and_ shows what happens with actual sound measurements to help illustrate. You use levels to adjust center image, not time alignment.
> 
> Sound travels at the speed of sound - which is why measurements are always correct for setting time alignment.
> 
> ...


OK, so how do you know your measurements are 100% exact? Did you use a laser? A tape measure flexes and bends therefore if it is not completely flat the measurement is off. Yes it would be very very small amount and even a tiny difference will result in different delay. Even a .03ms difference can make a big difference in the sound. 
I can hear a .03ms delay difference which is very easy to hear. 
Cant you? If you just measured and set it and never played with tweaking the delay you don’t know what you are missing.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Again, if you read that guide, you will see you don't even need to be that accurate to begin with!  

Besides, are you really keeping your head perfectly still as you drive around? Of course you aren't. You don't need the level of accuracy that you think you do for time alignment. Again, it's all spelled out very well in that guide, from a true expert in the field. Don't take my word for it - I'm not an expect - I just know when to listen to the experts! 

He even shows how measurement errors won't make any difference with a midbass speaker, for example - he even purposely uses a _6"_ measurement error on purpose to illustrate it. Again, he even shows the measurements - and you can easily recreate the test in your own car if you don't believe the expert. 

Obviously, feel free to do whatever you feel works best for you, but at least read what an expert says on the subject...


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

jtrosky said:


> If you read the Audiofrog Tuning Guide, it explains (and shows) why you should use a tape measure to set time delay distances - set it and forget it. Adjusting the delays a little at a time will just cause you to end up with some frequencies that are centered, but all others won't be - and/or cancellation issues. Again, the guide explains _and_ shows what happens with actual sound measurements to help illustrate. You use levels to adjust center image, not time alignment.
> 
> Sound travels at the speed of sound - which is why measurements are always correct for setting time alignment.
> 
> ...





jtrosky said:


> Again, if you read that guide, you will see you don't even need to be that accurate to begin with!
> 
> Besides, are you really keeping your head perfectly still as you drive around? Of course you aren't. You don't need the level of accuracy that you think you do for time alignment. Again, it's all spelled out very well in that guide, from a true expert in the field. Don't take my word for it - I'm not an expect - I just know when to listen to the experts!
> 
> ...


A 6” measurement error would result in horrible sound 😂😂😂😂 Believe what ya want


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

jtrosky said:


> Again, if you read that guide, you will see you don't even need to be that accurate to begin with!
> 
> Besides, are you really keeping your head perfectly still as you drive around? Of course you aren't. You don't need the level of accuracy that you think you do for time alignment. Again, it's all spelled out very well in that guide, from a true expert in the field. Don't take my word for it - I'm not an expect - I just know when to listen to the experts!
> 
> ...


But we're not time aligning a bandpassed bass signal. We're talking about the entire signal. I think you're taking the lesson a bit out of context. 

I don't know about you but once I got a DSP it changed my driving posture. I tried to tune it for my "slump towards the center of the car head nearly centered" posture that I developed to get the most sound of my old installs... But that just didn't work. I absolutely peg my head to the back of the seat when I really want to hear a track. Sometimes I'll get a nasty reflection and I'll reposition my head just to be sure it's not audible when my head is against the headrest. So yeah my head does move around a lot. But it's not swaying 6 inches side to side when I'm driving down the highway... go ahead and try it at the computer, you'll feel like a bobblehead. We've got these things called necks full of muscle that keep our heads from bobbling around.

If I drop my head 3 inches i fall directly inline with the reflection of the wideband off the windshield and the response above 10k increases dramatically. It's so bad that if I'm driving and experiencing listening fatigue it's 7/10 times that I'm slouched in the seat and sitting right in that high frequency reflection. I can sit tall in my seat and return to quality listening. I'm not willing to just 'ignore' those 3 inches because a 200hz signal isn't impacted by that.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Like I said - do whatever works for you. I'm just relaying the information from someone that knows way more about this stuff that any of us ever will. Use the information how you see fit. 

Me, I'm constantly moving my head around while driving - turning it left and right, looking up and down, etc. A few mm of time alignment difference won't mean squat to me.

The midbass was just an example (since that is the example that Andy uses). Like he says in summary:


```
So what does all of this mean? It means that you should use the tape measure carefully. Measure from the grilles or the dust caps of each speaker to the microphone. Get as close as you can. Input the right numbers and your results will be great. There are other ways to measure, but none are necessarily more accurate and none are as quick and simple. Once you’ve set your delays to correctly compensate for distance, leave them alone. They aren’t wrong.
```


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## vette_werks (Oct 31, 2014)

jtrosky said:


> Like I said - do whatever works for you. I'm just relaying the information from someone that knows way more about this stuff that any of us ever will. Use the information how you see fit.
> 
> Me, I'm constantly moving my head around while driving - turning it left and right, looking up and down, etc. A few mm of time alignment difference won't mean squat to me.
> 
> ...


Its either one of two things:
1. Your l/r response is wrong which leads you to mess with time alignment. It lines up certain frequencies better because they are not matched in response.
2. You mismeasured.

Perhaps you should rethink your eq l/r response. The above is most definitely correct from Andy.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

jtrosky said:


> The midbass was just an example (since that is the example that Andy uses). Like he says in summary:


The discussion of midbass is not arbitrary, it's a specific example used to illustrate his point because of the longer wavelengths played in the passband of the midbass driver.










But don't forget he only mentions the midbass after explaining that a 1" difference in measurement creates a significant difference at 7.5khz. He's not saying 6 inches doesn't matter, he's saying time alignment does not have the same accuracy requirements at all frequencies. 










What kind of error is he talking about? A pretty big one:
















What he doesn't discuss here is the dramatic increase in reflections as frequencies get higher. I'd be interested in more opinions on that matter.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

All I know is I trust my ears a lot (generally, we all have off days)
I found small differences in the distance are very good noticeable (in home audio!, I dont have a dsp in my car yet but want to buy the Dsp.3)

Everything matters in your install and setup wether its in a car or at home... you are trying to perfect the reproduction of the sound. Sooo many things matter in here...

Also in a setup thats very good balanced its even better noticeable...

And its person-dependend... which is okay cuz we all have diferent ears, and training. 

When I showed a very good friend of mine who was building loudspeakers for more than 40 years that a few millimeters in distance and later also a 0,2 ohm raise in a resistor is hearable (or isnt that English...) he just couldnt hear it!... and he has heard a lot AND has well trained ears... and a good set!

And another friend of mine, he could hear the differences! Both times...

I assume in a car it matters too, even a small distance.

Btw not everything is displayed in measurements... you can hear small differences soundwise where in the measurements its barely shown...

Anyway, auto allignment seems like a good feature (when ur mic is set correctly of course)....
👍


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

jtrosky said:


> Again, if you read that guide, you will see you don't even need to be that accurate to begin with!
> 
> Besides, are you really keeping your head perfectly still as you drive around? Of course you aren't. You don't need the level of accuracy that you think you do for time alignment. Again, it's all spelled out very well in that guide, from a true expert in the field. Don't take my word for it - I'm not an expect - I just know when to listen to the experts!
> 
> ...


first off, Why did you feel the need to even make the post saying measure and forget it and mention audio frog tuning guide? Was there people arguing how to time align in this thread that I didn’t see?

“Sound travels at the speed of sound - which is why measurements are always correct for setting time alignment.” 

not in my car! I have super duper speakers that make sound travel at the speed of light .. just kidding 😂 but,

I’m pretty sure everyone knows this. What other speed would sound travel at? 

“Measurements are always correct for setting time alignment” 

of course. *But is your measurement 100% accurate ?*
If so how did you get the perfect measurement? A measurement that is 1/2” off will result in .04ms difference. (According to the tracerite site) 

if you are off 1/2” one midrange and the same on opposite midrange now you have .08ms difference which would be VERY easy to hear. Not only would it shift the image it would also change the way they play together with the other drivers. You can easily hear this also. It will make words sound grainy/raspy for lack of better words. When it’s playing the same time as the tweeters. Don’t believe me? Give it a try. you might be surprised that your system could sound better.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

opekone said:


> He's not saying 6 inches doesn't matter, he's saying time alignment does not have the same accuracy requirements at all frequencies.
> 
> View attachment 272733


This is interesting. What would be the difference in accuracy requirements from a midbass vs a midrange?

I doubt I could hear a .04ms difference in the midbass. But in midrange I can.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Well it is interesting indeed... because as I recall when only having bass a bit further or closer in my 3 way with separate enclosures at home, it was hearable.... absolutely.

But maybe in the car where you sit almost on top and in between your drivers, maybe with the bass it isnt that much noticeable. But mids and highs yes...


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Don Camillo said:


> Well it is interesting indeed... because as I recall when only having bass a bit further or closer in my 3 way with separate enclosures at home, it was hearable.... absolutely.
> 
> But maybe in the car where you sit almost on top and in between your drivers, maybe with the bass it isnt that much noticeable. But mids and highs yes...


We are definitely on the same page. I also came from home audio.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Selkec said:


> We are definitely on the same page. I also came from home audio.


Nice! Its a bit rare here... but I think although they are two different worlds..., both are fun and some of the same principles applies and both camps can learn from eachother.... 
Although both wouldn't admit.... 😄


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Selkec said:


> We are definitely on the same page. I also came from home audio.


How is the Dsp.3? Do you like it?
I was holding on to my passive with high end parts crossovers a very long time.... but decided I give it a try, because with good tuning and a good dsp its probably much better than passive (with a well tuned custom xo)...


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## toneloc2 (Nov 29, 2015)

are you guys doing the auto TA after you eq? are your levels matched?


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

toneloc2 said:


> are you guys doing the auto TA after you eq? are your levels matched?


Yes after eq. Once each driver is eq’d to the target curve the levels will be matched.


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## Speedhunter (Feb 21, 2020)

Auto feature is nice but why people give time aligment so much unnecessary attention?!
Tape measure, few test tones and its done. 
Are you deaf, so you need impulse response and some auto tuning? 
that kind of measurements probably never gets you on spot only near...

so much arguing for easiest thing in tuning that doesn’t require special ears and measurement tools....


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## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

Unless it can align midbass and subwoofer drivers for cohesion and upfront bass better than simple measurements based on distance sometimes can’t provide.

I want to play with it so bad... but I have a newborn son less than a month old. Wife has car stuff lock down


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Don Camillo said:


> Yes I can totally imagine. Because when I was still building and designing loudspeakers (for home) the difference in 2mm was heard easily when I had the drivers in seperate enclosures on top of eachother. So if the left mid or tweeter was a bit too close you could hear the difference.
> Also, when u timealign all drivers in a homespeaker (vertically!) you use the space between the voicecoil and front of magnat to allign, and NOT the front of a driver like ppl do in a car. So yes, the auto allignment in sound is definitely a better option in my opinion!... (unless you measure exactly to the right space inside the driver, which no one does)...


You still use the coil in a car, the front of the dustcap/grill gives an approximate point, but for proper accuracy it’s always the coil, no ones said anything other than that ever 👍🏼


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Speedhunter said:


> Auto feature is nice but why people give time aligment so much unnecessary attention?!
> Tape measure, few test tones and its done.
> Are you deaf, so you need impulse response and some auto tuning?
> that kind of measurements probably never gets you on spot only near...
> ...


Phase measurements get subs/midbass/mids perfect and the tape measure would often be out... tweeters are harder due to the short wavelength

for example sometimes a bigger delay and a phase inversion will make a better job of aligning phase... you’d never get to the settings in my car with a tape alone, crossover interaction, phase issues and driver phase characteristics all play a part in getting time alignment very accurate

I will demonstrate this very soon in my own car in great detail over on car audio junkies...

to get phase coherence does not nesc follow the tape measure, keep thinking like that and you won’t get any better, and I’m not speaking hypothetically, I am speaking from experience and actual scientific measurements

watch this space... you will have your eyes opened and realise the sweeping statement you just made is just that...


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

jtrosky said:


> If you read the Audiofrog Tuning Guide, it explains (and shows) why you should use a tape measure to set time delay distances - set it and forget it. Adjusting the delays a little at a time will just cause you to end up with some frequencies that are centered, but all others won't be - and/or cancellation issues. Again, the guide explains _and_ shows what happens with actual sound measurements to help illustrate. You use levels to adjust center image, not time alignment.
> 
> Sound travels at the speed of sound - which is why measurements are always correct for setting time alignment.
> 
> ...


The audiofrog guide is a simple guide for people who don’t have better equipment, I could show you in half an hr with smaart why a tape gets you a good basic start point... however andy doesn’t say that there aren’t better ways to do what he simplifys which will in theory get you a good basic tune for a start


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

dumdum said:


> You still use the coil in a car, the front of the dustcap/grill gives an approximate point, but for proper accuracy it’s always the coil, no ones said anything other than that ever 👍🏼


I thought most did it to the dustcap.... which is too short indeed.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

dumdum said:


> Phase measurements get subs/midbass/mids perfect and the tape measure would often be out... tweeters are harder due to the short wavelength
> 
> for example sometimes a bigger delay and a phase inversion will make a better job of aligning phase... you’d never get to the settings in my car with a tape alone, crossover interaction, phase issues and driver phase characteristics all play a part in getting time alignment very accurate
> 
> ...


Good info! Indeed..., I am curious about the demonstration...


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Don Camillo said:


> Good info! Indeed..., I am curious about the demonstration...


Basically I will set my car up by tape and then take phase measurements (these demonstrate time alignment accuracy also) at the listening position, then adjust settings using actual phase information Then overlay and show the differences between the two

it will demonstrate why a tape measure is a good easy way for most people to setup a car but also demonstrate there are better ways, no one is stating a tape measure doesn’t get some form of useable result... but it will also demonstrate why it’s far from 100% perfect as some people seem to infer from andys guide And repeat parrot fashion...

often the same people think you can just plonk speakers in any given location off axis below beaming... yet seem to ignore the additional bit of info andy gives which is the screen/dash/side window corner is an awful place to mount speakers

I went through approx 20 placements for my mids before deciding where they are currently... location With regard to reflective surfaces does matter even when playing below beaming, otherwise all cars would have perfect stages with width at the midranges... this is often not the case with a pillars for example... sound often seems to come from the corner of the screen or further inboard from the speakers actual location, this then messes with the soundstage majorly, I am writing a piece on that currently also 👍🏼 I am not rushing that however, it’s one of those where you have to be in the mood to write if you see where I’m coming from 👍🏼


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

dumdum said:


> Basically I will set my car up by tape and then take phase measurements (these demonstrate time alignment accuracy also) at the listening position, then adjust settings using actual phase information Then overlay and show the differences between the two
> 
> it will demonstrate why a tape measure is a good easy way for most people to setup a car but also demonstrate there are better ways, no one is stating a tape measure doesn’t get some form of useable result... but it will also demonstrate why it’s far from 100% perfect as some people seem to infer from andys guide And repeat parrot fashion...
> 
> ...


Yeah I think likewise! 
I tried all locations and directions simply by moving the 4" wrapped in a towel around. Same for the tweeter. Firing into the windscreen gave a worse sound than on axis in my car... so I have to cut in the dash and create fiberglassed enclosures. Not big of a deal, but this one is for my classic car... (so I start with getting a spare dash). But I want to do it right this time, so its a "bit" more work to redo the entire install...

There is a huge difference in people like u mentioned, and for us its just much more work to be satisfied... 
But once your standards are a lot higher than average, you cant enjoy a less sounding system as much as when putting in a LOT more effort in everything (tuning, install, better drivers, etc)... and have it better.

And a difference just has to be there with people... 😄 thats fine...


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> Basically I will set my car up by tape and then take phase measurements (these demonstrate time alignment accuracy also) at the listening position, then adjust settings using actual phase information Then overlay and show the differences between the two
> 
> it will demonstrate why a tape measure is a good easy way for most people to setup a car but also demonstrate there are better ways, no one is stating a tape measure doesn’t get some form of useable result... but it will also demonstrate why it’s far from 100% perfect as some people seem to infer from andys guide And repeat parrot fashion...
> 
> ...


**** is there a good speaker placement guide out there. If i am going to the trouble of moving drivers out of factory positions i want it to be worth the effort and get it right.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Sam Spade said:


> **** is there a good speaker placement guide out there. If i am going to the trouble of moving drivers out of factory positions i want it to be worth the effort and get it right.


Every car is different so not really...

but getting speakers off the dash/screen/side window triangle is good... get mids in phase with tweeters in the pillars and you don’t generally suffer from Rainbowing... that’s normally when a phase issue exist between the mid and tweeter and pulls the stage down to the mid somewhat

I will also say a lot of people don’t know how to listen for issues with placement, just slap speakers in and set time alignment, then adjust levels... it works to a point, but soon falls over when you play the Emma disc with the 5 positions of voices and different instruments... disjointed sound and a blurred image is a big issue with a pillars just fitted where they fit


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## Speedhunter (Feb 21, 2020)

@dumdum
I Mostly agree with you, but phase we referring to is not the linear phase that is related to time aligment. Two drivers that are time aligned can be out of phase. Also many off us dont have tools (fft analyser) to propper measure phase. Impulse respons can be more confusing than tape measure. Also nor andy nor i reffer to “just” set it by tape.
Andy refers to set it by tape befor eq and than correct it fully after with test tones(31 pink noise bands).


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> Every car is different so not really...
> 
> but getting speakers off the dash/screen/side window triangle is good... get mids in phase with tweeters in the pillars and you don’t generally suffer from Rainbowing... that’s normally when a phase issue exist between the mid and tweeter and pulls the stage down to the mid somewhat
> 
> I will also say a lot of people don’t know how to listen for issues with placement, just slap speakers in and set time alignment, then adjust levels... it works to a point, but soon falls over when you play the Emma disc with the 5 positions of voices and different instruments... disjointed sound and a blurred image is a big issue with a pillars just fitted where they fit


I might have to get that emma disc and start some serious tuning now all my parts are here USB HEC bluetooth controler, MTK1 and URC3. Then i can see how **** my placement is


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> Every car is different so not really...
> 
> but getting speakers off the dash/screen/side window triangle is good... get mids in phase with tweeters in the pillars and you don’t generally suffer from Rainbowing... that’s normally when a phase issue exist between the mid and tweeter and pulls the stage down to the mid somewhat
> 
> I will also say a lot of people don’t know how to listen for issues with placement, just slap speakers in and set time alignment, then adjust levels... it works to a point, but soon falls over when you play the Emma disc with the 5 positions of voices and different instruments... disjointed sound and a blurred image is a big issue with a pillars just fitted where they fit


I'd love to see a pic of your front stage dd


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> **** is there a good speaker placement guide out there. If i am going to the trouble of moving drivers out of factory positions i want it to be worth the effort and get it right.


Sam I thought you were pretty happy with your setup... but indeed custom placed is imo better than in factory locations... but also much more work!!
But if u want to find if there is better location where it is doable to fit it in your car, than u can take out the mids (or tweets) and with a longer cable move it in your car (mostly around or in the dash. Use wrapped towels behind the mids or it wont work..!

In my car a few inches around the best spot made a huge difference...
Strangly the mids sounded best rather low in the corners on / in dash almost on axis. Crossed to the inner ear of the listeners in the next seat... 

Note: this is without dsp, only a passive xo at 200hz. 

So in my case I have to make 3 litre enclosures/pods of 4.5 inch hight while the (in picture removed) dashtop is only 2.5 inch high... I cant cut out the wood...


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Don Camillo said:


> Sam I thought you were pretty happy with your setup... but indeed custom placed is imo better than in factory locations... but also much more work!!
> But if u want to find if there is better location where it is doable to fit it in your car, than u can take out the mids (or tweets) and with a longer cable move it in your car (mostly around or in the dash. Use wrapped towels behind the mids or it wont work..!
> 
> In my car a few inches around the best spot made a huge difference...
> ...


I am happy. But stealth install factory positions. The gear is great. It sounds great. I'm sure it can be better. 

I posted this on the other new software update thread. It explains.

I already knew and understood everything you just said dumdum. But I bought decent gear that i loved the sound of like I was deciding on home equipment. And decided i needed a stealth install in factory positions. So I handed over my Hertz Mille legend 1650.3 splits for the front stage and then I just forgot about everything you said in your post that I knew and trusted my installer. Now i expect my installer angled the drivers as best he could but i paid no attention to the dispersion stats of the drivers and had no conversations about the angles of the drivers. I trust that they did the best job they could but ive been making a list of questions and this has just added some to the list. Ive got the USB HEC module, wifi controller and a URC.3 just arrived from germany and i can have those conversations when i get that stuff put in. Ill tweak anything i can or need to once ive had that done.

I'm also questioning if I really needed the mille legend 165.3s for the rear, which are there for rear passengers on long trips, like 1000km+ long, and rear fill. Given the poor mounting options in the rear, basically flat door panels, the 165.3 splits might not have given me many advantages over decent coaxials and saved me money. But I did get all my Hertz gear at just over half price so that's probably not such an issue. At least in terms of tonal accuracy and musicality they match the rest of the system rather than degrade it.

I have an alarm now and am making space to park the car locked up rather than out the front of the house. Once I've switched to an insurance company that is willing to cover a car to an agreed value where the hifi gear and dyna sound/heat deadening materials, alarm, tinting plus installation is worth about the same as the car I'll feel a little more comfortable. Then once my bank balance recovers if I can buy/fabricate some tweeter/mid pods I'll buy the mids that match my splits, the hertz mille ML700.3, and mount the front stage tweeters and mids in the corner of the dash, windscreen and front pillar, get a better geometry for my sound stage and maybe go active. Although I've already got three 7.5kg stereo amps at 330 rms per channel into 4 ohms and if I go active ill need more amp channels but I certainly don't need any more power.

It could be that my tweeters are in a great position already. they are at the front bottom corner of the front windows and behind a grille and I can't see what angle they are at without taking the grille off, or maybe shining a torch into it, but it seems to at least be somewhere near 45 deg backwards at a guess, not directly at the opposite window. So hopefully it's ruining my rear passengers sound stage not mine 

But to not even think about the mounting angles and dispersion pattern is a beginner's mistake. But I guess this is a beginner fit-out for me. I've never done car audio properly before.It'says been an alpine deck and front speaker upgrade in factory position, no component amp and drive around with the fader all the way forward.

And people worry so much about subs. I gotta say my splits go to 40 Hz, when I switch the subs off I almost feel I could live without them, and getting the front stage right is so much more important than whether you go to 40 or 20 hertz. Hell most recorded music wouldn't go below 40 Hz and the organ music, doof doof and electronica that might really isn't my usual listening.


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## GubbNicke (Sep 6, 2009)

A question about the time alignment beta. (ATM)
I just tried this without success. I have a DSP.3 that only get digital input from an SDMI25.
Instruction states "make sure that a fullrange stereo signal is routed to analog input channels "A & B", and it really seems like analog input is the only option(!?). Routing the digital signal, on the main tab, doesn't seem to work as all output stops as soon as I start the measuring. When I close the "measure-window", its all back to normal.

Am I missing something, or are you all using an analog signal?


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Speedhunter said:


> @dumdum
> I Mostly agree with you, but phase we referring to is not the linear phase that is related to time aligment. Two drivers that are time aligned can be out of phase. Also many off us dont have tools (fft analyser) to propper measure phase. Impulse respons can be more confusing than tape measure. Also nor andy nor i reffer to “just” set it by tape.
> Andy refers to set it by tape befor eq and than correct it fully after with test tones(31 pink noise bands).


phase at the listening position (I’m not aware there are two phase measurements at your ears, just the phase of one speaker and the phase of the other... if they are in phase they sum, out of phase they don’t... note two ears may hear slightly different things even at midbass freqs...) is what I’m measuring ie how you hear, and the eq changes it, as does crossovers, as does all pass filters... I can also measure impulse response, however in a car that is nigh on impossible to measure And get meaningful data from

a pair of drivers which are of the same make and model will likely have the same/similar phase characteristics from what I have seen and tested, it’s relatively easy to get those to sum, what’s harder is the adjustment of time alignment and phase through the crossover of different speakers


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

GubbNicke said:


> A question about the time alignment beta. (ATM)
> I just tried this without success. I have a DSP.3 that only get digital input from an SDMI25.
> Instruction states "make sure that a fullrange stereo signal is routed to analog input channels "A & B", and it really seems like analog input is the only option(!?). Routing the digital signal, on the main tab, doesn't seem to work as all output stops as soon as I start the measuring. When I close the "measure-window", its all back to normal.
> 
> Am I missing something, or are you all using an analog signal?


I just had a play and found very similar results for my mids and tweeters to those I had settled on with smaart (2-3cm either way... I am quite impressed I must say... having looked at the signal it plays it appears to be a preset pattern that looks like Nessie... it’s basically got a good amount of energy at sub/midbass freqs and then a comb filtered effect further up...








If you view it in linear axis it’s definitely comb filtered...


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

And yes you do have to play the click track over analogue, I tried it first with my iPhone playing the file via a topping and optical, I figure if this is where my music plays from I should also have this as my reference source for testing etc

this then set all delays to 0/0.01/0.02 msec for pretty much all the channels, I can’t read the boxes on the right of the instructions due to my screen resolution, but I clicked what half the sentence was saying after it didn’t work, so yes you do need analogue 👍🏼


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

GubbNicke said:


> A question about the time alignment beta. (ATM)
> I just tried this without success. I have a DSP.3 that only get digital input from an SDMI25.
> Instruction states "make sure that a fullrange stereo signal is routed to analog input channels "A & B", and it really seems like analog input is the only option(!?). Routing the digital signal, on the main tab, doesn't seem to work as all output stops as soon as I start the measuring. When I close the "measure-window", its all back to normal.
> 
> Am I missing something, or are you all using an analog signal?


You know what I had this same issue. It stopped all sound from coming out of the DSP. I had to reload the tune to get sound back, but after reloading I was able to complete the TA using a d10 -> optical -> dsp.3 Though as you may have read I had some issues with it.

I wonder if the reccomendation to use analog inputs is due to accuracy issues or if it's due to bugs within the software.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Sam Spade said:


> I'd love to see a pic of your front stage dd


It’s currently in testing stages, but very close to getting the tweeters fixed in situ and being neatened up...









That’s the view from the drivers seat 👍🏼


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## GubbNicke (Sep 6, 2009)

opekone, Might very well be something like that. I never tried to reload the tune.
I have however sent in an analog signal directly from the computer now, and then it works!
I have a hard time to get a sufficient level for reading with my UMIK-1 USB. I had to increase levels to make it work. 
In REW, it works just fine, so there might be something there as well.

BUT. The result was good I would say! I will most likely keep those TA-settings, and re-adjust my EQ a bit. The integration to the sub is the best I've had so far. It was on the dash already before, but it is more distinct now. Most likely more correct.
Like it!


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## Speedhunter (Feb 21, 2020)

@dumdum 
Nice front! Also it would be nice to see some smaart software phase action.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

dumdum said:


> It’s currently in testing stages, but very close to getting the tweeters fixed in situ and being neatened up...
> View attachment 272879
> 
> 
> That’s the view from the drivers seat 👍🏼


Satori drivers, nice!!
If I had a bigger modern dash I would also use the 5" Satori's... but 4" is about the max in there... they dont have 4".

How do you like them??

On topic: it seems that using a Dsp is rather a steep learning curve, and giving some issues.... 
Maybe I should stick to passive 🤔

Or is it just a temp bug....


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

GubbNicke said:


> opekone, Might very well be something like that. I never tried to reload the tune.
> I have however sent in an analog signal directly from the computer now, and then it works!
> I have a hard time to get a sufficient level for reading with my UMIK-1 USB. I had to increase levels to make it work.
> In REW, it works just fine, so there might be something there as well.
> ...


On the dash yeah? Oh okay a Dsp it will be... 😆


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Don Camillo said:


> Satori drivers, nice!!
> If I had a bigger modern dash I would also use the 5" Satori's... but 4" is about the max in there... they dont have 4".
> 
> How do you like them??
> ...


No, helix dsps are very reliable, it’s a beta feature that you don’t need to use if you don’t want 👍🏼 The helix dsps are pretty bullet proof and lovely to work with

as for the satoris, I did have 6” up there, I dropped to the 5” so I could make a small 2.5l sealed enclosure in the a-pillar window area

they sound excellent, I may need to adjust the drivers proximity to the side window just to reduce the reflected energy a touch as the drivers side images outside the driver and throws the centre off... it’s in the centre between the extremes of the sound stage, but just off the centre of the car and judges can be very fickle people 😂


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Speedhunter said:


> @dumdum
> Nice front! Also it would be nice to see some smaart software phase action.


I can satisfy that request 👍🏼


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

dumdum said:


> No, helix dsps are very reliable, it’s a beta feature that you don’t need to use if you don’t want 👍🏼 The helix dsps are pretty bullet proof and lovely to work with
> 
> as for the satoris, I did have 6” up there, I dropped to the 5” so I could make a small 2.5l sealed enclosure in the a-pillar window area
> 
> they sound excellent, I may need to adjust the drivers proximity to the side window just to reduce the reflected energy a touch as the drivers side images outside the driver and throws the centre off... it’s in the centre between the extremes of the sound stage, but just off the centre of the car and judges can be very fickle people 😂


Ah you compete, thats nice.. but serious...

With 2.5L you can go to 107hz, thats great! But the curve falls a bit under 200hz..
Regarding Dsp; I sometimes see installs with mids facing a bit upward (like Peter Pss, in UK) to the celing in stead of on axis like I found to be best sounding in my car. Can the dsp pull the frequency up so thatbit sounds the same as on axis? I mean u could EQ but will it sound the same?
Otherwise I could lay a 5" on my dash 30° off axis.... and hear it as it was on axis. I never EQ'd before so I dont know... Of course at 2khz its curve falls off axis, but the dsp could raise it. Or isnt that good? Looking at distortion etc...


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

now that there is some smart people commenting in this thread. Can someone maybe explain this to me. It’s a time alignment question.
If we get the measurements and or put the mic in listening position where our head is. 
*HOW. * Would the image be centered in the windshield or dash? That make zero sense to me.
My mind tells me this would result in the image being centered directly in front of the listening position. 

someone please explain this if I am mistaken. And please don’t say because Audiofrog said so.


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## Speedhunter (Feb 21, 2020)

Selkec said:


> now that there is some smart people commenting in this thread. Can someone maybe explain this to me. It’s a time alignment question.
> If we get the measurements and or put the mic in listening position where our head is.
> *HOW. * Would the image be centered in the windshield or dash? That make zero sense to me.
> My mind tells me this would result in the image being centered directly in front of the listening position.
> ...


because you are balancing two sources relative to your position; so you hear their center not yours. you are not center of nothing.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Selkec said:


> now that there is some smart people commenting in this thread. Can someone maybe explain this to me. It’s a time alignment question.
> If we get the measurements and or put the mic in listening position where our head is.
> *HOW. * Would the image be centered in the windshield or dash? That make zero sense to me.
> My mind tells me this would result in the image being centered directly in front of the listening position.
> ...


Hearing and localization is really complicated as we use many different systems and mechanisms in synchrony to estimate a source. For example the shape of the ear varies as you move from the top to the bottom. This creates a specific sound signature for the same sound that's coming from higher or lower in front of you. We use this variation to vertically localize sound. One thing we do without thinking is to nod up and down to aid in localizing a sound. But this isn't relevant when we're talking about time alignment.

Our brain also uses the time delay between a sound approaching from the right hitting your right ear first then your left ear second. It does the basic math "sound hit right ear at x time, sound hit left ear at y time, sound goes this fast, source must be right there". But it's cooler than that. It's not so dumb, you see sound is complicated. When the sound from a point source to the right arrives at your right ear, it then travels through your brain faster than it does outside, and it reaches the cochlea faster than it could traveling outside. Your brain hears this, recognizes the indistinguishable filter of sound traveling through your brain, and then compares it to the sound that travels around your head and enters through the other ear, then compares everything to everything.

Take for example a reverb filter in an audio workstation. You can add a big reverb and that creates a certain sound. But on some reverb units you can make more interesting adjustments. Like decay, damping, and pre delay. Decay adjusts how long the effect keeps going after it processes a note. Very little decay and the snare drum will echo for many seconds. Lots of decay and it will echo only for a fraction of a second. So if you make it echo for a really long time it begins to sound like it's in a big hall. Now pre delay sets a time after the drum hits where there is no effect, and then the effect of the reverb comes in. This is effectively creating a fake reflection off of a wall. So if you set the decay very large it sounds like you're in a massive hall. And if you have the predelay very small it sounds like the drum is playing from very far away. But as you add predelay - you are in a way 'moving the drum away from the wall' and making it take longer for the drum hit to bounce off the wall. The drum starts to sound like it's moving out into the room. With a big predelay and very low decay you create the illusion that the source is close to you and up front in the stage. Another settings can alter the "shape" or "materials" in the room, this is the amount of high frequency information that's passed. A second decay knob for high frequency noises can control this illusion. Producers use things like this to create a richer more textured mix.

Surround sound systems operate on this principle. Where they use a primary 3 speakers (left right center) to generate all of the volume and then the auxiliary speakers to replicate those reflections and create the spatial detail. That's why you don't need 7 floor standers to get a great experience, even with reference systems.

In other words. You have a speaker on either side of you. Changes to the time delay of either speaker will not generate what we see above, as that's all describing how you locate sound when it's coming from one place. Each speaker is a source and will radiate through one ear then into the other. When the speakers play together and evenly the localization to come from the reflections and delays that are coded into the source material.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

“the auxiliary speakers to replicate those reflections and create the spatial detail.”

Maybe in old school pro logic the surrounds would just replicate reflectiona. But not today. Most surround sound systems today even the basic use discrete sounds for every channel. At least 7.1 discrete Channels.


As for the time alignment in a car not centering it in front of us I still don’t understand it. Even with that great response above. Something is just not clicking for me to understand it. 

hypothetically what if we was to measure from in between the seats. woildnt this then center the image however many inches to the right it is from the original head space?

if we shift our head several inches to any direction it changes where the image is so why wouldn’t measuring from a different location also do this?


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

It does. It just butchers the response at the same time.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Speedhunter said:


> because you are balancing two sources relative to your position; so you hear their center not yours. you are not center of nothing.


ahhhh!!! It’s starting to kind of make sense now after rereading this simple answer!


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Thank you both for responding with two totally different yet good answers. I love it when I learn more and things start to click.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

If you sit in your car with left and right time aligned perfectly and both sides playing with the same amount of power you will not have a centered image. The image will sound offset to the drivers side because you are closer to the speakers on that side and they will be louder. Once you match the levels of the left and right sides with your RTA, then it will sound right in front of you.

Well it's a little more complicated than that.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

opekone said:


> If you sit in your car with left and right time aligned perfectly and both sides playing with the same amount of power you will not have a centered image. The image will sound offset to the drivers side because you are closer to the speakers on that side and they will be louder. Once you match the levels of the left and right sides with your RTA, then it will sound right in front of you.
> 
> Well it's a little more complicated than that.


I’ve matched a each like driver to its respected curve with REW +/- 1.5db

did you mean once they are matched it will sound centered instead of in front of you?
if not, then once they are matched should all the driver side speakers e lowered in volume? If so would you link the channels and lower them all the same ?


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Yes I mean it will be centered.

There is no guarantee the two sides play the same volume just because you let REW auto generate 20 filters to match a house curve. Overlay the drivers response in REW and make changes as needed. If you look below you'll see my right wideband is playing a few db louder.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

opekone said:


> Yes I mean it will be centered.
> 
> There is no guarantee the two sides play the same volume just because you let REW auto generate 20 filters to match a house curve. Overlay the drivers response in REW and make changes as needed. If you look below you'll see my right wideband is playing a few db louder.
> 
> View attachment 272941


If you used the same target and level when eqing in REW they should be matching. If you are eqing and end up with different volumes per side then you are not equing to the same target level...

20 filters? For a whole side? I use about 20 filters per tweet, midrange and midbass.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Selkec said:


> “the auxiliary speakers to replicate those reflections and create the spatial detail.”
> 
> Maybe in old school pro logic the surrounds would just replicate reflectiona. But not today. Most surround sound systems today even the basic use discrete sounds for every channel. At least 7.1 discrete Channels.
> 
> ...


Its just like if you were at a small hall with an acoustic band or unamplified choir. No matter where you are in the hall the sondstage and its centre is in the same place. You move relative to it. With a good home hifi or great car set up its the same


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> Its just like if you were at a small hall with an acoustic band or unamplified choir. No matter where you are in the hall the sondstage and its centre is in the same place. You move relative to it. With a good home hifi or great car set up its the same


Yeah for the band indeed... and with a homeaudio set (one set more than the other, depending on the speakers) if you would sit 3 feet to the left, the centre and image also moves... but if you would use a dsp to timeallign both speakers exact to your seat 3 feet away and use EQ to have both levels exact equal...., you will get the center in the middle of the speakers....


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Selkec said:


> first off, Why did you feel the need to even make the post saying measure and forget it and mention audio frog tuning guide? Was there people arguing how to time align in this thread that I didn’t see?


Are you serious!?!?!? 90% of this thread has been about time-alignment! The reason that I mentioned it was because the few posts right above mine were from people talking about making small, manual adjustments to the time-alignment distances. I was simply presenting the way that Andy from Audiofrog recommends setting time-alignment values - _especially_ if you don't have the proper equipment to do it better "manually" (instead of just using tape-measure measurements) - and most people don't have the equipment to do it better manually.




Selkec said:


> *But is your measurement 100% accurate ?*
> If so how did you get the perfect measurement? A measurement that is 1/2” off will result in .04ms difference. (According to the tracerite site)
> 
> if you are off 1/2” one midrange and the same on opposite midrange now you have .08ms difference which would be VERY easy to hear. Not only would it shift the image it would also change the way they play together with the other drivers. You can easily hear this also. It will make words sound grainy/raspy for lack of better words. When it’s playing the same time as the tweeters. Don’t believe me? Give it a try. you might be surprised that your system could sound better.


I honestly don't understand the whole "but how to you know your measurements are right?" thing. It's not rocket science to take an accurate measurement from the mic position to your speakers. The speakers that really need the most accurate measurements are right at head-level - how hard can it be to take an accurate measurement with a tape measure?!?! It really couldn't get any easier. If someone seriously can't take an accurate tape-measure measurement from their mic position to their speakers, then there is almost zero chance of them successfully tuning their car anyway. Setting up time alignment is literally the easiest part of tuning... Not to mention that the _exact_ distance between your speakers and your ears is constantly changing as you drive. You need to constantly look left and right, check your mirrors and numerous other things that change the distances between your ears and the speakers as you drive. Even just minor head movements would change the distance. 




Speedhunter said:


> Auto feature is nice but why people give time aligment so much unnecessary attention?!
> Tape measure, few test tones and its done.
> Are you deaf, so you need impulse response and some auto tuning?
> that kind of measurements probably never gets you on spot only near...
> ...


EXACTLY! FInally, someone with some common sense here! Setting up time alignment is not hard - and a tape measure works fine for the job.





dumdum said:


> The audiofrog guide is a simple guide for people who don’t have better equipment, I could show you in half an hr with smaart why a tape gets you a good basic start point... however andy doesn’t say that there aren’t better ways to do what he simplifys which will in theory get you a good basic tune for a start


Correct - most people don't have better equipment to set time alignment better than a tape-measure measurement - and the people in this thread are no different - which is the point (hell, one of the participants recommending small manual changes doesn't even have a DSP at all yet!). You have the Smaart system, but 99% of the people on this forum do not - and that is who the Audiofrog Tuning Guide is targeted at - people that DON'T have tools like Smaart. Just to be clear, Andy does NOT say that a tape measurement is just to get a basic tune done and then fine-tune it from there - in fact he _specifically_ recommends the exact opposite - he recommends that you use a tape measure and then to leave the time alignment distance settings alone, since trying to manually adjust them will usually just cause more issues - especially if you don't have the correct gear to perform more accurate types of measurements, which again, most don't - he even bolds the part about leaving the settings alone:

_"So what does all of this mean? It means that you should use the tape measure carefully. Measure from the grilles or the dust caps of each speaker to the microphone. Get as close as you can. Input the right numbers and your results will be great. There are other ways to measure, but none are necessarily more accurate and none are as quick and simple. Once you’ve set your delays to correctly compensate for distance, *leave them alone*. They aren’t wrong."_

Again, if you disagree, you'd have to take it up with Andy - I'm just the messenger. Personally, I trust what the man says though.




Selkec said:


> I’ve matched a each like driver to its respected curve with REW +/- 1.5db
> 
> did you mean once they are matched it will sound centered instead of in front of you?
> if not, then once they are matched should all the driver side speakers e lowered in volume? If so would you link the channels and lower them all the same ?


Keep in mind - even if the MIC reports levels that are _exactly_ the same between left and right at the listening position, that doesn't mean that your hearing is as "perfect" as the MIC - your hearing may not be exactly the same between your left and right ear. Your left ear may not hear as well as your right ear or vice-versa. So if the image is not centered after tuning, you can adjust the center with levels in the DSP to account for any hearing difference between your ears. For example, my left ear hears better than my right ear (sounds are louder to my left ear), so after my tune is all done, I move things over to the right a little with levels to center the image for _my_ hearing. 

Regarding the whole Audiofrog Tuning Guide thing - there is a reason why people refer to that tuning guide constantly - because it's written by an expert in the field and it's a complete, repeatable and easy-to-follow tuning guide that can be accomplished with basic tools that everyone has available. More complicated isn't always better.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Selkec said:


> If you used the same target and level when eqing in REW they should be matching. If you are eqing and end up with different volumes per side then you are not equing to the same target level...
> 
> 20 filters? For a whole side? I use about 20 filters per tweet, midrange and midbass.


Ok

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

opekone said:


> Ok
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


Did you intentionally make one louder than the other? Just wondering if that’s how you center the image.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

So to shift the image slightly. Would I link all drivers and raise or lower them all the same amount?


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Selkec said:


> So to shift the image slightly. Would I link all drivers and raise or lower them all the same amount?


Yes. That shifts it equally at all frequencies. If you have a wandering center you have to adjust that bit by bit. Dumdum had a great explanation of this. You look at the overlay between the two drivers and it gives you a sense of where in the frequency response one side might be louder than the other and would pull the center to that side at that frequency.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Selkec said:


> Did you intentionally make one louder than the other? Just wondering if that’s how you center the image.


I was just showing that you can have REW match filters to the same target with the same house curve and still get 2db difference between your drivers. That image shows the response of my left and right wideband after REW threw 20 bands at each one.

I'm trying to adjust my language with each successive response to make it more palatable and easier to digest, but it seems it's having the opposite effect.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

jtrosky said:


> Are you serious!?!?!? 90% of this thread has been about time-alignment! The reason that I mentioned it was because the few posts right above mine were from people talking about making small, manual adjustments to the time-alignment distances. I was simply presenting the way that Andy from Audiofrog recommends setting time-alignment values - _especially_ if you don't have the proper equipment to do it better "manually" (instead of just using tape-measure measurements) - and most people don't have the equipment to do it better manually.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And yet people miss the part where andy says don’t put the speakers in a pillars or on dashes due to reflections which can mess with the soundstage massively... so the guide then gets a bad rep as the stage isn’t centred with a tape, it took me a fair while to work out why it didn’t work as explained, but soloing a single speaker and listening to bandwidth limited pink noise is a great way to check an installed speaker is acting as a point source or a reflection crazed source...

A fair few cars in the U.K. have this issue in Emma sq competition that I’ve listened to... inc one of our team cars, we had to go a fair way to locate the speaker in the correct place before this years Emma finals that never happened... it made a huge difference to the staging... and then some virus got it cancelled... I made his boot nice in the mean time though 😎


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

And that sir... is indeed a nice boot... 👌 or trunk as the Americans say... 😉

When the demo is ready where can we see it Dumdum? I am curious...


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Yes that is nice! You do some good work!


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

opekone said:


> I was just showing that you can have REW match filters to the same target with the same house curve and still get 2db difference between your drivers. That image shows the response of my left and right wideband after REW threw 20 bands at each one.
> 
> I'm trying to adjust my language with each successive response to make it more palatable and easier to digest, but it seems it's having the opposite effect.


that’s strange. I’ve never seen it had that happen As long as you used the same target dB level in the eq


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Don Camillo said:


> And that sir... is indeed a nice boot... 👌 or trunk as the Americans say... 😉
> 
> When the demo is ready where can we see it Dumdum? I am curious...


It was due at the euros in Salzburg this year... but it ended up getting cancelled and it seems he has started a new job so he can only take school hols time off so 2020 euros next April aren’t a possibility... but he will likely do some Emma UK events and I may take him abroad as he’s never done any European event... so maybe the continent 😎


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## Bman427 (Feb 21, 2020)

I used to think I knew a little bit... after reading this thread I'm just glad I didn't blow up any speakers this week, I still have some time though...lol. Although I did butcher a door panel today trying to gain some clearance for my mid bass.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Bman427 said:


> I used to think I knew a little bit... after reading this thread I'm just glad I didn't blow up any speakers this week, I still have some time though...lol. Although I did butcher a door panel today trying to gain some clearance for my mid bass.


If you did then I’ll just retune it again for the third time in 2 months 😂😂😂😜😜😜 Hopefully there will be an updated firmware released before you come back to town also


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## leonjacky (Jun 8, 2015)

I questioned the polarity of V8 mk2⋯⋯glad to see an important update！


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## ftmsmohan (Feb 12, 2016)

I have tested this out today but Helix accidentally selected my internal laptop MIC.
Later going to try again with my XLR mic which connected thru usb mixer (focusrite), will it work like this?
Will give a try.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

ftmsmohan said:


> I have tested this out today but Helix accidentally selected my internal laptop MIC.
> Later going to try again with my XLR mic which connected thru usb mixer (focusrite), will it work like this?
> Will give a try.
> 
> ...


How do you take these screen shots?

helix also selected my laptop mic when I first tried it also.


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## MrHyde (Aug 31, 2019)

Has anyone tried using the new software with older windows operation systems? I'm running an older laptop with Vista and can't get the program to open. Is says on the Helix site that it's still compatible all the way back to XP. All I get is an error message "The procedure entry point RaiseFastException could not be located in the dynamic link library KERNEL32.dll." I had no problems with the Helix version 4.52a


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## princo (Mar 10, 2019)

Selkec said:


> helix also selected my laptop mic when I first tried it also.


Select the USB mic as the system default (Recording Tab) in the Windows Control Panel\Sound.


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## ftmsmohan (Feb 12, 2016)

Selkec said:


> How do you take these screen shots?
> 
> helix also selected my laptop mic when I first tried it also.


I'm using Windows 10 and using the snipping tool to screen capture.

This new feature is really cool, it measures and apply the TA automatically.
Hope they come out with similar option for EQ tuning as well.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

ftmsmohan said:


> I'm using Windows 10 and using the snipping tool to screen capture.
> 
> This new feature is really cool, it measures and apply the TA automatically.
> Hope they come out with similar option for EQ tuning as well.


Erm... they have and did an age ago 🙈 it’s called auto eq in the rta


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## ftmsmohan (Feb 12, 2016)

dumdum said:


> Erm... they have and did an age ago 🙈 it’s called auto eq in the rta


hmmm... yeah agree.. but i prefer like those in miniDSP (live direct) which does all EQ, Phase. TA together


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

It would be nice if the Helix auto-EQ was at least able to take advantage of the power of parametric EQ instead of relying only on graphic EQ. Obviously, parametric EQ will allow you to match your house curve and left/right better than graphic EQ will (which is the whole reason why parametric EQ is so desirable) - especially when "complex" EQ is needed - and it requires less filters to do it (which leaves more open for other things such as the Helix tone controls, allpass filters, shelf filters, etc). Obviously, it can be done since REW does a pretty damn good job of it!

However, I don't think that the Helix auto-EQ can ever match the capabilities of something like DiracLive.


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

I'm questioning the selection of the reference speaker. The prompts tell you to use the front left speaker as reference for LHD, which seems backwards. You would want to select the speaker that's furthest from the driver's seat (i.e. right front speaker for LHD and Left front speaker for RHD). That way all the delays area applied as differences from the furthest speaker, which should not be delayed itself.


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## dobslob (Sep 19, 2011)

jtrosky said:


> It would be nice if the Helix auto-EQ was at least able to take advantage of the power of parametric EQ instead of relying only on graphic EQ. Obviously, parametric EQ will allow you to match your house curve and left/right better than graphic EQ will (which is the whole reason why parametric EQ is so desirable) - especially when "complex" EQ is needed - and it requires less filters to do it (which leaves more open for other things such as the Helix tone controls, allpass filters, shelf filters, etc). Obviously, it can be done since REW does a pretty damn good job of it!
> 
> However, I don't think that the Helix auto-EQ can ever match the capabilities of something like DiracLive.


They were playing with Dirac Live when they decided that it wasn't with the effort, but it gave them the idea to do the automated time alignment.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

metanium said:


> I'm questioning the selection of the reference speaker. The prompts tell you to use the front left speaker as reference for LHD, which seems backwards. You would want to select the speaker that's furthest from the driver's seat (i.e. right front speaker for LHD and Left front speaker for RHD). That way all the delays area applied as differences from the furthest speaker, which should not be delayed itself.


thats what I thought also but it applies the delays properly choosing the left speaker. My right midbass has zero delay


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## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

dobslob said:


> They were playing with Dirac Live when they decided that it wasn't with the effort, but it gave them the idea to do the automated time alignment.


To clarify.. they did not think the Dirac Live calibration is worthwhile as an algorithm itself??

Or more so that it is not worth the effort for Audiotech Fischer themselves financially to pay for the licensing plus invest the resources required to change up their platform and reprogram hardware firmware to accommodate Dirac Live processing for any of their existing DSP products as well as redo software programming to integrate the Dirac Live Calibration Tool with the current Helix DSP PC Tool?


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

dumdum said:


> Erm... they have and did an age ago 🙈 it’s called auto eq in the rta


That auto eq isn’t as good as the auto time align.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> To clarify.. they did not think the Dirac Live calibration is worthwhile as an algorithm itself??
> 
> Or more so that it is not worth the effort for Audiotech Fischer themselves financially to pay for the licensing plus invest the resources required to change up their platform and reprogram hardware firmware to accommodate Dirac Live processing for any of their existing DSP products as well as redo software programming to integrate the Dirac Live Calibration Tool with the current Helix DSP PC Tool?


I'm assuming that the results of something like Dirac Live would depend a lot on how many "issues" existed before any processing was done, correct? For example, it may not be as "helpful" in fully-customized install where all of the speakers are in "perfect" locations with "perfect" aiming, where the number and severity of phase-related issues are minimal - whereas it may have a huge impact when used in a car with OEM speaker locations, where you have a greater chance of phase-related issues (generally speaking). 

Would you agree with that? I guess I'm under the impression that Dirac Lives "claim to fame" is how it handles phase-related issues - and it's success is dependent on how bad the phase-related issues are to begin with.

Just curious if I'm even close to understanding that correctly.


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> I'm assuming that the results of something like Dirac Live would depend a lot on how many "issues" existed before any processing was done, correct? For example, it may not be as "helpful" in fully-customized install where all of the speakers are in "perfect" locations with "perfect" aiming, where the number and severity of phase-related issues are minimal - whereas it may have a huge impact when used in a car with OEM speaker locations, where you have a greater chance of phase-related issues (generally speaking).
> 
> Would you agree with that? I guess I'm under the impression that Dirac Lives "claim to fame" is how it handles phase-related issues - and it's success is dependent on how bad the phase-related issues are to begin with.
> 
> Just curious if I'm even close to understanding that correctly.


Really not the thread to be discussing this... There are several Dirac threads and forums these comments can be directed to. But from my experience and understanding - a brief summarized answer to your last question is for the most part - No.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

I downloaded and installed overtop the .65a version of PC TOOL with the new .70a version. I started up the system, and plugged in the DSP and opened the software. It did not discover that the new software was there... so it did NOT update itself, I had to hard reset it and reload.

After reload the new software was installed, I opened a profile, and saved it, shutdown the software unplugged from PC, re-plugged into the PC and re-opened the software. I did the Shift+T and opened the Timing window, changed to the Right Low as Preference speaker, chose the Delay method, loaded the Timing.wav file on HU and hit pause, turned up the volume, un-paused the .wav, clicked on the Start button and shut the door (I was outside the truck)

Well it timed the entire front stage, but then got stuck when trying to time the rear door speakers, I could hear the pop going from front right Mid-base to Left rear speaker.. back and forth, back and forth, I let it go for about 3 minutes. I tried it a couple more times, but I removed the the front stage by un-clicking the little X, each time I added a little more volume. Finally after almost maxing out the volume (125wats RMS) I got it to time the rear speakers and sub, but it gave some really strange delay timings... I know they were wrong.

So, I decided to take a listen to the stereo.. and wow did it sound horrible, so I started checking things out.

I found that some really strange things happened.

1. I found the LP Crossover on my Reference Speaker (Right low mid-base) was set to Bypass. (should be LR/24)
2. The HP on my Left Tweeter was lowered to 3108, from 3511. (scarry that it changed the HP on TWEETS!)
3. The HP on my Rear door speakers were lowered to 294 from 452 (again scarry its changing HP XO's)
4. The Timing for my Reference Speaker was auto-set to 1.84... this should be 0.00
5. The Timing process did not auto-set my Rear Speakers with the new measurement or my Subs. It did auto-set the front stage speakers, even though Reference speaker was auto-set wrong. I believe it did not auto-set the Rears (#4's) and Subs(#5's) because I had the timing Linked in the Main Time window for those speakers. So be sure to un-link your speakers first.
6. It will not find the Device Serial Number in the Software startup window, and USB Mode is blank.
7. There is one more thing... I just cant remember what it is.....I'll post when I remember..

It started to get late, so I shut it down for the evening. I'm thinking I will try again, but this time ensure I have the volume up high enough for it to go through the entire process in one shot, instead of the staggered process I took it through.....

Next issue is with the Director, and this problem began with the .65a version, .70a did not fix it. Check out the pick below..









Under "State" field, it should display which profile is "loaded", and the others as "Ready" as you can see those fields are blank. I have reset, and reloaded the Director software a few times. I works correctly until I add the 3rd or more profiles to it. In the 4 field, it says "ready" for now... the next time I load it up, it may be blank..


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

I did an auto TA and EQ today. Helix first timer here so WTF knows if it worked, but here are some pics. AF GB10/25/60 3-way setup, P Six Mk2 w/WiFi Controller running 4.70a. It does sound pretty good to me. Still need to figure out how to REW it and didn't do the sub because I haven't set gains on it yet.

Left front-stage:










Right front-stage:










Main page:










Time Alignment:










For some reason the TA settings don't really look like they make sense to me.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

Did you perform the timing with the mic on right side of car? The delay settings look correct for a European right side driver.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

LOL No, I didn't. That is why I thought they looked strange. WTF did it do that? I am pretty sure it used the left mid-bass as the reference.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

something funky is going on... it has your Left Mid at a 0.00 delay.... a 0.00 would be for the farthest speaker away from the microphone....


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

Try it again.... BUT Make sure no speakers are linked. I see in your pic that you have all speakers linked to eachother.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

tjk_bail said:


> Try it again.... BUT Make sure no speakers are linked. I see in your pic that you have all speakers linked to eachother.


Ah... that may have been it. I did the TA right after auto-EQ'ing.


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## EmoJackson (Aug 13, 2018)

Frequentflyer said:


> Ah... that may have been it. I did the TA right after auto-EQ'ing.


Would it be easier to set TA before doing autoeq?


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## Bman427 (Feb 21, 2020)

Did the auto TA on my system today, had a few issues but figured it out, with some help from a friend. I use a Fiio most of the time bypassing the factory Bose headunit. I had the factory pre amp signal routed to channels A/B and tried doing the TA using a flash drive through the factory head unit. Did some weird **** and did not work. Used a direct source ( phone or laptop, cant remember which) and it worked great. 

Definitely worth taking the time to work through...


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

EmoJackson said:


> Would it be easier to set TA before doing autoeq?


I thought I read to do EQ first, but I could be wrong.


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## dhmcfadin (Sep 28, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> The only thing I can think of that helix doesn't beat is the dirac auto tune in the minidsp. But, it has the advantage in every other regard. Outside of that, I dont think anyone stacks up. I think i like Mosconi's controllers a hair more though, but they aren't as flexible.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Do I need the MTK-1 for this or can I use my UMIK-1?


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

The UMIK-1 works with the Helix.


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## dhmcfadin (Sep 28, 2017)

Frequentflyer said:


> The UMIK-1 works with the Helix.


Thanks!


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## Andre Silva (Mar 14, 2017)

GubbNicke said:


> I have a hard time to get a sufficient level for reading with my UMIK-1 USB. I had to increase levels to make it work.


how did you got increase levels to the mic...???
I tried tune today and the level mic in ATM window (UMM6 in my case) was very low, always red, even the volume on the speakers very loud.
the volume in HU almost at the maximum.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

Andre Silva said:


> how did you got increase levels to the mic...???
> I tried tune today and the level mic in ATM window (UMM6 in my case) was very low, always red, even the volume on the speakers very loud.
> the volume in HU almost at the maximum.



You have to ensure that NOTHING is linked anywhere in the system. Goto Main tune window, and check each and every channel and make sure no channels are linked to other channels including Subs. Then goto Main Time window, and make sure all speakers are not Time-Grouped in anyway. Click the X for each speaker.

You will not need to max out your volume after your do the above. I used about 60%percent volume and it worked after I unlinked everything. Make sure to take note of the delay numbers that show up in the auto-ta window after the measurement is finished, because it may not auto-fill the new delays to the Main Time window. But you can set them manually using your notes.


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## leonjacky (Jun 8, 2015)

tjk_bail said:


> You have to ensure that NOTHING is linked anywhere in the system. Goto Main tune window, and check each and every channel and make sure no channels are linked to other channels. Then goto Main Time window, and make sure all speakers are not Time-Grouped in anyway. Click the X for each speaker.
> 
> You will not need to max out your volume after your do the above. I used about 60%percent volume and it worked after I unlinked everything. Make sure to take note of the delay numbers that show up in the auto-ta window after the measurement is finished, because it may not auto-fill the new delays to the Main Time window. But you can set them manually using your notes.


In my case, after auto-ta, it auto-filled in the main Time window.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

I have a question..... after the auto-ta, it showed a delay for my right sub to be 1.30, and the left sub delay at 1.32. Both subs are in one box. So, should I average the timing, and use 1.31 delay for both subs, or use the 2 different times?


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## Andre Silva (Mar 14, 2017)

tjk_bail said:


> You have to ensure that NOTHING is linked anywhere in the system. Goto Main tune window, and check each and every channel and make sure no channels are linked to other channels including Subs. Then goto Main Time window, and make sure all speakers are not Time-Grouped in anyway. Click the X for each speaker.
> 
> You will not need to max out your volume after your do the above. I used about 60%percent volume and it worked after I unlinked everything. Make sure to take note of the delay numbers that show up in the auto-ta window after the measurement is finished, because it may not auto-fill the new delays to the Main Time window. But you can set them manually using your notes.


tks tjk, I will try and observe this tomorrow and post here.
If success, I will try to make a little video about...


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## GubbNicke (Sep 6, 2009)

Andre Silva said:


> how did you got increase levels to the mic...???
> I tried tune today and the level mic in ATM window (UMM6 in my case) was very low, always red, even the volume on the speakers very loud.
> the volume in HU almost at the maximum.


I increased everything except the gain on the amplifiers. The volume from the laptop where I was running the sound to the analog inputs on the dsp, the mic volume, the levels in the DSP. The sound produced was really too loud for comfort, but then it was possible to get green readings. Barely
An interesting thing is that when switching to the built-in laptop mic, the level was pretty much back to what would be expected. 
Didn't need anything near the volume needed for my UMIC at max sensitivity

Since I don't have any issues with levels in REW or Auto EQ in the DSP, I guess there must be something around this feature.

I do not have anything linked. I use a new, very clean profile for this specific purpose.

I have also seen the mentioned issue with not getting all values set. Seems to be the case when the readings hasn't worked (Caused by levels in my case)

I have also seen different result when measuring several times, so I would absolutely try a number of readings to verify the result.
The differences can be very small, but also quite signinficant.


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## Dremgragen (Jul 14, 2008)

tjk_bail said:


> I have a question..... after the auto-ta, it showed a delay for my right sub to be 1.30, and the left sub delay at 1.32. Both subs are in one box. So, should I average the timing, and use 1.31 delay for both subs, or use the 2 different times?


Yes, both 1.31. You can try less or more if you hear differences, but I'd keep them the same.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

I’m going to attempt giving this a try, though I too typically only use iPhone to USB HEC, or Fiio coax SPDIF directly to the Pro-2. 

So I guess with this Honda OEM (shoo), I could get the sound files to my Fiio then aux into OEM with a mini jack. And I guess I’ll have to switch my midbass channels to LOW instead of more midrange drivers in the tune file. 

Q1:
So there are two files in the folder.. Does it matter which you play?

Q2:
I expect you’d want to do any individual driver EQ first before this since we’re talking IIR filters, so EQ affects phase. 

Q3/4:
How are you guys’ results with midbass coherence since we know midbass in cars have fun modality issues that drive us nuts even though they might be well timed? Also how about sub to midbass phase alignment for good coherence (fancy word for bass up-front)?

Q5:
Anyone try some IR or phase plots after running this to see if REW, Smaart or Systune validates the tool?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Babs said:


> I’m going to attempt giving this a try, though I too typically only use iPhone to USB HEC, or Fiio coax SPDIF directly to the Pro-2.
> 
> So I guess with this Honda OEM (shoo), I could get the sound files to my Fiio then aux into OEM with a mini jack. And I guess I’ll have to switch my midbass channels to LOW instead of more midrange drivers in the tune file.
> 
> ...


1 use either, they are the same

2 yup... eq first and apply crossovers to get them acoustically correct, this influences phase and timing

3/4 seems good

5 Once I’ve got my front stage issues sorted I will be taking smaart shots with tape measure vs smaart manual vs helix but it could be a week or two


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

I am new at REW, but I think I cracked (at least some of) the code today with getting some measurements logged. First pic is a baseline, untouched with flat EQ. The second one is after Helix auto-EQ. I will say that getting a good auto-EQ takes some finesse (garbage in = garbage out). Drivers are GB10, GB25, GB60 and a GB10D2 powered by a Helix P Six and Pico 1.






















So my GB25's are dominating the system. These things will just rip your head off and for some reason the GB60's are not hitting hard enough, so I've gotta take car of that, but the auto-EQ does flatten things out pretty well.

I also tried another auto-TA today. It did not work, again. It put it some delay, but only .12 ms at the most when my manual measurements are giving me 2.5+ ms on some of the drivers.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

Yes, one look at your Auto-tune graph, and I could instantly tell your Mid-Range is way over driving the rest of your system. You can adjust your levels using the current tune. Generally speaking... you would want your Mid-Base drivers about 4 DB's above your Mid-Range. Then have your Mid-Range about 3DB's above your Tweets...

For just a quick fix...... in the Helix software, increase both Mid-Base drivers about 9 DB's, then lower both MId-Range's about 2db's, and lower your tweets about 3db's... then after doing that see if it sounds a little better...


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Yeah, looks like your mids are definitely too "in your face" - and it also looks like your mids and midbass are overlapping quite a bit after the auto-EQ? Something doesn't look right there - maybe the wrong freq range was used when using auto-EQ?

I know your're just starting with REW, but if you could get the dB scale on the left-hand side in 5dB increments, that would be helpful too (it's kind of the "standard" when displaying REQ response graphs) - gives a little more detail. 

Glad you are learning REW - it'll come in very handy when trying to "see" what is going on with your system. I was resistant with it at first, but it's an awesome tool once you learn it - especially if you ever decide to try EQ'ing the system outside of the Helix auto-EQ.

I'm just glad we have another person posting some graphs!  So many people are hesitant to post their response graphs for some reason.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

At the time you hit the Shift+T, a Quick Start Auto-Time guide window shows up infront of the auto-time window. Look at number 5. It shows that a the Green slider window should show up when you have the correct volume set. If that slider does not move into green when setting the auto-ta... and it is just a square orange box (like I had on my PC) the auto-ta probably will not work...... I had re-install Windows 10 Operating system on my Laptop for that green indicator light to work... Then the auto-ta worked, and auto-filled the times correctly in the Main Time window.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

One other thing... I'm just guessing, but it looks like your Mid-Base speakers (in the Helix software) have a LowPass Crossover around 380hz. Looks like your Mid-Range HighPass crossover is set in the Helix around 250Hz. Try changing your Mid-Range HP to around 380hz, and change the LP in the Mid-Range to around 3.2k.....keep the other speakers the same..


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

Basically you want your speaker curves to look something like this...... (with the -6db at the bottom of crossovers betwen the fronts, mid-Range, Mid-Base, Subs)


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Regarding auto-TA, I do get a green slider. I am using the UMIK-1 and I thought I read that it may have issues with doing auto-TA. Not sure how true that is. What mic are you using? I will probabyl stick with my manual measurements.

For auto-EQ, I seemed to get better results doing the left side, right side, sub and whole system. Not sure why that is, but again, it really depends on how you set it up.

Regarding crossovers, that's where things get weird. My baseline crossover settings are: Tweeters 4000>, Mid-ranges = 300 - 4000, Mid-bass 80 - 300 and the sub 65 and below. It just seems like auto-EQ is messing with the crossover settings in the background. If you notice, it is boosting outside the crossover range for the individual drivers. Maybe I should only set the auto-EQ range to the exact crossover settings.









































REW charts in 5db scale 🙂. Next time I may use 1/6 octave. I used 1/12th for these.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

I use the Dayton UMM6 USB microphone. I don't use the Helix Auto-Tune. It looks like its doing a fairly decent job with your Mid-Range and Tweets, but for some reason it is EQ'ing the life out of your Mid-Base. Sorry but I can't help you much with the Helix Auto-EQ. but, you could try and "underlap" your Crossovers...keep your LP on MB at 300, but move your HP on MR to 450, and 2.5k on the LP......keep the everything else the same....

and one more thing... Auto-EQ is Max boosting 9 of 18 bands on the MR...... get the ear plugs out ..........move the Offset up a little when Auto-eq'ing...


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

... I think you would have to move the Offset down, not up to reduce all the boosting.... sorry 'bout that.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Just wanted to revisit the Auto-EQ subject. I have been doing some more experimenting by creating my own individual house curves in DSP Tool. I had some interesting results.

I made my own house curve in DSP Tool based off of the JBL curve. It's basically a lot of interpolation out of REW, but it is pretty damn close. I also made one for the tweeters, but I didn't get screen shots of those yet.










Left midrange before and after auto EQ:










Right midrange before and after auto-EQ. I did not level-match them yet, but if I brought the left down 3dB and the right up 1dB, they'd be pretty close.










Overall, I'm impressed. I started out with REW EQ and then live tuning "by hand" using parametric EQ and I can't say this thing looks much worse. It only used 19 out of the 30 bands to get there also.

I just modified the curve a bit to include lower/higher freqs. I'll try an auto-EQ with this one tomorrow.


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## Dremgragen (Jul 14, 2008)

It never occurred to me to set individual driver curves! Neat!

Also someone mentioned no one posts their curves. I don't know about you but I don't use the same pc to tune as I do to post. It would require extra effort and forethought to post that.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Dremgragen said:


> It never occurred to me to set individual driver curves! Neat!
> 
> Also someone mentioned no one posts their curves. I don't know about you but I don't use the same pc to tune as I do to post. It would require extra effort and forethought to post that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


The only issue using the Helix RTA to autoset EQ is that it is limited to using graphic EQ and doesn't adjust Q. With that being said, it seems to work OK.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

Frequentflyer said:


> The only issue using the Helix RTA to autoset EQ is that it is limited to using graphic EQ and doesn't adjust Q. With that being said, it seems to work OK.


If your doing individual speaker curves... why not use REW and its Auto-EQ function(with Jazzi's Excel file)..... its much more accurate, will give you a much better tune, and you can use PEQ (30 per speaker) along with the Q that REW recommends for each frequency. With REW you will have to manually enter the frequency adjustments into your Helix, but its really easy to do.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Link to jazzis excel and how to use?


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

How do you overlay eq curves in the helix software? Like in post 156?


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

dcfis said:


> Link to jazzis excel and how to use?



Its here on this web-site. Jazzi's tuning companion for room eq wizard

Read the thread, all the answers on how to use are in the thread.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

Looks like he moved his Excel over to the other site... here is the link.






Justin Zazzi's tuning companion for room eq wizard


This thread was originally on DIYMA and I am moving my support to here. Note: See the link in my signature to download the latest version of this tool. This spreadsheet has been a lot of fun to make! My goal is to take as much guesswork out of the tuning and installation process as...



www.caraudiojunkies.com


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Cool idea! How do ya know how to set the individua


tjk_bail said:


> If your doing individual speaker curves... why not use REW and its Auto-EQ function(with Jazzi's Excel file)..... its much more accurate, will give you a much better tune, and you can use PEQ (30 per speaker) along with the Q that REW recommends for each frequency. With REW you will have to manually enter the frequency adjustments into your Helix, but its really easy to do.


you actually don’t have to manually enter the adjustments.
After doing the auto eq, on the main screen click file I think then save filter settings as text. 
Then go into the helix software click on the speaker or speakers you’re adjusting then press the R key.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

dcfis said:


> How do you overlay eq curves in the helix software? Like in post 156?


In REW, you just select any measurement you have made by clicking the check box at the bottom of REW window


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

Selkec said:


> Cool idea! How do ya know how to set the individua
> 
> you actually don’t have to manually enter the adjustments.
> After doing the auto eq, on the main screen click file I think then save filter settings as text.
> Then go into the helix software click on the speaker or speakers you’re adjusting then press the R key.


True, IF, you're only doing one measurement.. its not easy to do multiple imports from multiple measurements for 1 speaker from REW into the Helix. It can take a bunch of measurements and adjustments to get the frequency curve to match the Jazzi speaker curve.... So, I don't use the auto-import ever....


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

dcfis said:


> How do you overlay eq curves in the helix software? Like in post 156?


In 156 that’s REW software. But in post 153 the helix software click the A on the right for whatever you want to see.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

i only do the auto eq for the first adjustments then do the rest manually by going into REW eq, unchecking the top left measurement under the eq and make sure the predicted box is checked. Then go into the filters. Choose peak then make the few more adjustments needed. You can watch the predicted response move as you change the eq filters. This way makes it super easy and fast to match the target curves. Then take another measurement and repeat.
when a forum member met up with me couple years ago and showed me this trick it was a game changer!

So 1 auto eq then a few more manual using the predicted and you’ll have a nice match in I time at all!
I also try not to use all the 31 bands...
So after taking a measurement always compare the area that needs adjusted to the current eq adjustments. Many times you’ll have an adjustment close to where you want to correct. So the same thing in the filters but this time enter the frequency and Q of the band in the helix that is close and make adjustments and see if that corrects the issue. If so just add or subtract however much adjustment you made in REW. Now you’ve saved using another eq band. 😉


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

Selkec said:


> i only do the auto eq for the first adjustments then do the rest manually by going into REW eq, unchecking the top left measurement under the eq and make sure the predicted box is checked. Then go into the filters. Choose peak then make the few more adjustments needed. You can watch the predicted response move as you change the eq filters. This way makes it super easy and fast to match the target curves. Then take another measurement and repeat.
> when a forum member met up with me couple years ago and showed me this trick it was a game changer!
> 
> So 1 auto eq then a few more manual using the predicted and you’ll have a nice match in I time at all!
> ...



I get what your saying about using 1 import from REW into Helix, then do manual adjustment after that. But you kinda lost me when your talking about "unchecking the top left measurement under the eq".... are you talking about the selected speaker(i.e. left tweet, or whatever speaker). Not sure what you mean with "Then go into the filters. Choose peak then make the few more adjustments needed." Are you talking about the "PK" field in the Auto-EQ. I know there is a 'Peak' check-box in the RTA window, but not in the Auto-EQ window...


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Regarding the curves in Helix, I built those by hand and saved each one. Yeah, it took a little bit of time (maybe 6-7 minutes each tops), but I have them forever now. I am not saying one method is better than the other. I never said doing it with autoset in the Helix software is going to give you better results than using REW, but it is very damn close and after your curves are built, it literally takes minutes to tune. Since I have dash mounted tweeters/midranges, autoset in Helix can't correct everything. It doesn't have enough accuracy to do that just using graphic EQ.

If you want to use REW for multiple corrections, you can just use one .txt file and edit that text file by adding more filters to it. (see attached pic). For example, do one round of tuning using REW EQ and save to a .txt file. This will be your "master" text file. Do a new RTA measurement, another round of REW EQ, output to a different .txt file (save it under a different name than the first one). Open up both text files and copy and paste the new filters into the "master" after the first round of filters. If you had up to Filter 10, then cut and paste the new ones started at 11. You will have to renumber them though and make sure everything looks the same (spaces, numbers, etc.). Then import that into Helix using the "R" command for your individual driver.

I will post more comparison pics using the auto-set. I may go out and play with it again today.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Is there a you tube of how to do the autotune from start to finish?


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

tjk_bail said:


> I get what your saying about using 1 import from REW into Helix, then do manual adjustment after that. But you kinda lost me when your talking about "unchecking the top left measurement under the eq".... are you talking about the selected speaker(i.e. left tweet, or whatever speaker). Not sure what you mean with "Then go into the filters. Choose peak then make the few more adjustments needed." Are you talking about the "PK" field in the Auto-EQ. I know there is a 'Peak' check-box in the RTA window, but not in the Auto-EQ window...


sorry the video is blurry. Yeah that’s what I meant to i check the selected speaker...

Yes PK in the filters screen.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

dcfis said:


> Is there a you tube of how to do the autotune from start to finish?



When ya gonna post your auto-tune video ??


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

Selkec said:


> sorry the video is blurry. Yeah that’s what I meant to i _*check*_ the selected speaker...
> 
> Yes PK in the filters screen.


Ok, cool. But did you mean to say, _*UN-check*_ the selected speaker..


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

I guess you thought that would help. It didn't


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

dcfis said:


> Is there a you tube of how to do the autotune from start to finish?


Are you talking REW EQ or Helix autoset?


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Helix auto tune


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Helix RTA & Auto EQ - A Car Audio Junkies Exclusive


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

jtrosky said:


> Helix RTA & Auto EQ - A Car Audio Junkies Exclusive


That is the left side/right side procedure. If you want to tune individual curves, all you'd have to do is build curves and load the files, but the procedure would be the same. I'd post them here, but for some reason the Audiotec Fischer software hides those files.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

jtrosky said:


> Yeah, I've never liked those little squares either - it's way too easy to confuse which square is for which channel with the way they are positioned. It would be nice if the whole "Channel A" text went into a reverse video or something like that instead of the little boxes.


Same with the damn mute and phase indicators. I'm working on a 12" laptop screen. Something a little more pronounced (like what you said for the link buttons) would be deeply appreciated.

Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Bman427 said:


> I dont understand these volume settings


Typical German. About as non-intuitive as they come...

Ge0


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

Forgive me if this is not the most educated question. I'm new to the Helix software. Is it not possible to edit tunes without being connected to the DSP (P6 in my case)?


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

GMCtrk said:


> Forgive me if this is not the most educated question. I'm new to the Helix software. Is it not possible to edit tunes without being connected to the DSP (P6 in my case)?


You can edit tunes without being connected to the DSP - I do it all of the time. You can start the DSP PC-Tool software in "demo" mode on any PC and then just load your tune file and that allows you to edit the tune while not being connected. Save any changes you make to a file (I'd recommend a new tune file) and then just load that new tune file into the actual DSP when you do connect to it.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Selkec said:


> now that there is some smart people commenting in this thread. Can someone maybe explain this to me. It’s a time alignment question.
> If we get the measurements and or put the mic in listening position where our head is.
> *HOW. * Would the image be centered in the windshield or dash? That make zero sense to me.
> My mind tells me this would result in the image being centered directly in front of the listening position.
> ...


Have you actually read the tutorial? It explains this as well...

Ge0


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## HCWLSU101 (Apr 30, 2009)

Anyone have any luck with the auto time alignment function? I tried but I couldn’t get the microphone to pick up a high enough signal


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

HCWLSU101 said:


> Anyone have any luck with the auto time alignment function? I tried but I couldn’t get the microphone to pick up a high enough signal


Yes 👍🏼 You may need to turn the director or urc.3 up 👍🏼


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

HCWLSU101 said:


> Anyone have any luck with the auto time alignment function? I tried but I couldn’t get the microphone to pick up a high enough signal











Helix Auto-Timing Do's and Dont's consenus


Looking for everyone's findings when performing the Auto-Timing with the Helix. Hoping you will add your comments on what you have done to make a successful reading. So far this is what I have......for the Do side. Copy your microphone's Calibration file contents into the Helix folder CAL.TXT...




www.diymobileaudio.com


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## HCWLSU101 (Apr 30, 2009)

Thanks!


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## zaytserr (Sep 1, 2010)

Helix V Eight MK2 noob here. 

Would someone be so kind as to provide links on how to set this amp/dsp up. I have watched a couple of Apicella's vids, however I feel like those are steps to be taken further down the line. At the moment I can't even confirm if my firmware/software is updating the amp/dsp properly. I turn on my vehicle and then start the DSP tool and it connects for 2 seconds and then disconnects. I have updated the ACO and drivers etc. and restarted everything and still the same thing. Only when I click on the V Eight DSP MK2 icon on the left hand side of the app screen does something happen. I get a window with 10 different loadouts that have no settings yet. So I click on loadout 1 and finally the DSP tool loads. However, I haven't a clue what to do next as the manual and supposed articles from Helix's recommended sound tuning magazine are just terrible. Maybe I am completely useless, but I have honestly never seen a more confusing piece of software in my life. I am terrified of destroying this $2500 amp.

My current set up is usb audio to optical into the V Eight. I have 8" B2 audios in the front doors, Alpine tweeters in th kicks and Alpine 7" mids in the rear doors. For the time being I am just using the factory Bose 5" sub just to get me going until I find a sub amp and subs that I would like to run in the future. There is no CD player with low level inputs, no factory High Level inputs, just the usb to optical from a smartphone or tablet. I have the Helix Director for Master volume and other quick adjustments and that is it. I am so fed up with this install and the excruciating time it has taken because all of my gear took forever to be shipped to me during the Covid mess and then all the modifications done to make speakers fit here there and everywhere, that I may just get everything cleaned up and take my truck to the dealer that sold me the V Eight and have them show me how to proceed. I have nothing against the dealer doing work on my truck, however, I want to know where everything has been run in terms of power wires, grounds, etc. which is not possible with having the dealer do everything. So please don't think I am too much of a snob to use my local dealer for installation.

Anyways, if anyone can help out, I would greatly appreciate it as I was hoping to at least get some kind of cruising time with my system before winter hits.


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

zaytserr said:


> Helix V Eight MK2 noob here.
> 
> Would someone be so kind as to provide links on how to set this amp/dsp up. I have watched a couple of Apicella's vids, however I feel like those are steps to be taken further down the line. At the moment I can't even confirm if my firmware/software is updating the amp/dsp properly. I turn on my vehicle and then start the DSP tool and it connects for 2 seconds and then disconnects. I have updated the ACO and drivers etc. and restarted everything and still the same thing. Only when I click on the V Eight DSP MK2 icon on the left hand side of the app screen does something happen. I get a window with 10 different loadouts that have no settings yet. So I click on loadout 1 and finally the DSP tool loads. However, I haven't a clue what to do next as the manual and supposed articles from Helix's recommended sound tuning magazine are just terrible. Maybe I am completely useless, but I have honestly never seen a more confusing piece of software in my life. I am terrified of destroying this $2500 amp.
> 
> ...


I am also new to Helix. I recently installed a P6 MKII. It's an incredible piece. I was debating between Helix and JL VXi (I have previously). Nothing against the JL, but the Helix is great.

So, first I would recommend installing the V8 and dont hook up any speakers. Keep the gains all the way down for the time being. Then power it up and hook up your computer. Make sure your drivers are updated ,etc. Go to your IO tab and route your inputs to your outputs how you want it set up. For example in my case, inputs A/B go to front tweets, C/D to front mids, and the pass-thru G/H go to subs (these are fed by the A/B inputs). So I have 2 pairs of RCA inputs for 3 pairs of speakers. 

Next, go the MAIN tab and set your crossovers for each channel. 

And that's basically it as far as very initial start up. From there I start playing some music and level match my tweeters to mids by ear (I plan to later try doing this more objectively with a mic). From this point, once you have everything up and running safe the last initial things to do would be set your time alignment to each speaker and then set the gains. In my case, channel A/B remains with gains all the way down and channel C/D has gains turned up and set to max unclipped output with a -5 db 1KHz test tone. 

That's where I am at now, personally. And damn does it sound good. Tremendous improvement over prior with no time alignment and passive crossovers. I have a UMIK-1 on order and plan to do the auto tune in the RTA section. And that will be it for me. I'm also adding a URC-3 for sub level control as well as switching to 2 person tune.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

A few more REW measurements after doing another autotune today. This is before setting gains on any of the channels, so the sub, midbass and tweeters are a little hot. Also, for some reason the Helix doesn't like flattening out the tweeters in the upper frequencies to match my tweeter house curve, so I have to manually correct them above 12.5k. I'll see if I can REW EQ some of the peaks out of the responses, but overall, I don't think it does a terrible job. I am tuning with a Half Whitledge curve right now. Settings are 80, 80-290, 290-3,000, 3000+.

1/6th smoothing:










1/3rd smoothing:


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## TitanCCBT3 (Jul 15, 2012)

Anyone else get the noise error that Selkec had ?

I updated to 4.70 and did auto TA. Did a great job however have horribly alt whine as well

Tried to reload 4.65 and it is giving me a ACO error and closes

Any thoughts on how to fix this?


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I had to revert to a previous PC-Tool version before and when I reverted, I also had to revert to the previous ACO driver version. No idea if that is the case here or not (I'm still running PC-Tool 4.52a!), but just a heads-up...

I'm curious - are you saying that your alternator whine only started after you did the Helix auto-TA?? If so, that doesn't make any sense at all. No combination of TA settings should cause alternator whine if it didn't already exist before TA!


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## TitanCCBT3 (Jul 15, 2012)

I know. Makes no sense. System was quiet as a church mouse until I updated the software to the 4.70 version and ran Auto TA. Now I have a pop when I go from zero to 1 on vol and a terrible hiss and alt whine. I have to assume it’s the update that’s causing the issue and not the TA


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

What DSP model? That is crazy that all of that happened from an auto-TA setup and/or PC-Tool version upgrade. I can't think of any settings that could cause those issues, but I'd definitely take a close look at all settings, just to be 110% sure a setting didn't get changed during the PC-Tool upgrade. Seems very unlikely, but...


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## TitanCCBT3 (Jul 15, 2012)

Dsp.3


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

zaytserr said:


> Helix V Eight MK2 noob here.
> 
> Would someone be so kind as to provide links on how to set this amp/dsp up. I have watched a couple of Apicella's vids, however I feel like those are steps to be taken further down the line. At the moment I can't even confirm if my firmware/software is updating the amp/dsp properly. I turn on my vehicle and then start the DSP tool and it connects for 2 seconds and then disconnects. I have updated the ACO and drivers etc. and restarted everything and still the same thing. Only when I click on the V Eight DSP MK2 icon on the left hand side of the app screen does something happen. I get a window with 10 different loadouts that have no settings yet. So I click on loadout 1 and finally the DSP tool loads. However, I haven't a clue what to do next as the manual and supposed articles from Helix's recommended sound tuning magazine are just terrible. Maybe I am completely useless, but I have honestly never seen a more confusing piece of software in my life. I am terrified of destroying this $2500 amp.
> 
> ...


Your amp allows you to have 10 different tuning sessions (or load outs) stored inside it at a time. Since you have not saved a tunning session yet yours are blank. You did the right thing and gained access to the software. So that's good. Most everything you need to know about setting your amp up is contained in this video:





If you've seen it and didn't understand, watch it again. If that doesn't work Nick Apicella offers remote tune services. He would be happy to help you set your device up.

Ge0


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

Maybe the gains got turned up somehow or now you have a bunch of boosts where before you had a bunch of cuts? Maybe...and this would be odd but possible...those pops or hisses were “there” previously but just not audible due to the gain structure not amplifying them; whereas now maybe they are?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## zaytserr (Sep 1, 2010)

Thank you GMCtrk and GeO. The input is greatly appreciated. After going over the first 2 Vol of the sound tuning magazine articles on Audiotec Fischer's website I was at a loss. But thankfully, the newest article actually had some good instruction. I will definitely watch Apicellas vids again and again as well as GMCtrks instructions. 

Other than the initial set up, my main concern right now is the instructions for using the optical input. The manual states.... Note: "This amp can only handle stereo input signals an no MP3 or Dolby Coded digital audio stream." Does that mean I would not be able to play Flac files from my CD collection?


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

zaytserr said:


> Thank you GMCtrk and GeO. The input is greatly appreciated. After going over the first 2 Vol of the sound tuning magazine articles on Audiotec Fischer's website I was at a loss. But thankfully, the newest article actually had some good instruction. I will definitely watch Apicellas vids again and again as well as GMCtrks instructions.
> 
> Other than the initial set up, my main concern right now is the instructions for using the optical input. The manual states.... Note: "This amp can only handle stereo input signals an no MP3 or Dolby Coded digital audio stream." Does that mean I would not be able to play Flac files from my CD collection?


Flac would be a stereo input signal 👍🏼 That would be fine as it would be decoded by the source


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

TitanCCBT3 said:


> I know. Makes no sense. System was quiet as a church mouse until I updated the software to the 4.70 version and ran Auto TA. Now I have a pop when I go from zero to 1 on vol and a terrible hiss and alt whine. I have to assume it’s the update that’s causing the issue and not the TA


This happened to me also!  So I saved the file. Then downgraded back to the old version and the noise went away. I tried it many times and the alt noise was insane! I think I mentioned it at the beginning of this thread. 

After downgrading I loaded the file with the auto time alignment and it worked fine. 

EDIT. Never mind. I see that you did mention me earlier in this thread. 
I tried it again the other day. And as long as the helix is on it’s fine. But the noise comes back the very next time it’s powered up. 
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Frequentflyer said:


> A few more REW measurements after doing another autotune today. This is before setting gains on any of the channels, so the sub, midbass and tweeters are a little hot. Also, for some reason the Helix doesn't like flattening out the tweeters in the upper frequencies to match my tweeter house curve, so I have to manually correct them above 12.5k. I'll see if I can REW EQ some of the peaks out of the responses, but overall, I don't think it does a terrible job. I am tuning with a Half Whitledge curve right now. Settings are 80, 80-290, 290-3,000, 3000+.
> 
> 1/6th smoothing:
> 
> ...


I must be doing something wrong when I tried it... doing the ear to ear measurement technique and auto tune in the helix how long do you do it ear to ear? The issue I had was you can see the adjustments being changed as it goes war to ear. But depending on which ear I end on the final adjustments will be very different if I end on the left ear vs the right ear. It’s like it’s not averaging or something. I tried for hours and could not get it  I watched the video many times and do it exactly as he does. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TitanCCBT3 (Jul 15, 2012)

I reloaded 4.65 and original tune and everything is back to normal. No noise or whine. 

I don’t think it’s an input gain issue as sound level is barely audible at level 1 with both versions however 4.70 has significant floor noise and whine

I made sure WIFI was off etc and no change. Will stick with 4.65


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

dumdum said:


> Flac would be a stereo input signal 👍🏼 That would be fine as it would be decoded by the source


Correct. The PCM in my car decodes the FLAC file before sending it optically to the DSP. You should be good.

Ge0


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Selkec said:


> I must be doing something wrong when I tried it... doing the ear to ear measurement technique and auto tune in the helix how long do you do it ear to ear? The issue I had was you can see the adjustments being changed as it goes war to ear. But depending on which ear I end on the final adjustments will be very different if I end on the left ear vs the right ear. It’s like it’s not averaging or something. I tried for hours and could not get it  I watched the video many times and do it exactly as he does.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I go ear to ear and spend about 3-4 seconds at each ear. I don't really see it change too much from ear to ear in DSP Tool. In REW maybe, but it's a lot more accurate. I do that until DSP Tool tells me it can't adjust it anymore.


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## zaytserr (Sep 1, 2010)

For those that use optical like myself. When a I go to the Digital routing tab, the routing seems spot on except I had to change Amp C and Amp D from Low to Mid. Other than that everything matches my needs. Do I need to copy this routing table to the main routing tab? Or is the main routing tab only used for Analog inputs?


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

You can use either one (if you don't have an analog source to use).


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

zaytserr said:


> For those that use optical like myself. When a I go to the Digital routing tab, the routing seems spot on except I had to change Amp C and Amp D from Low to Mid. Other than that everything matches my needs. Do I need to copy this routing table to the main routing tab? Or is the main routing tab only used for Analog inputs?


If your using the Optical out from your Headunit into the Helix, then most peeps us the Main Routing tab. Just drag and drop the Digital outputs (on lower left) into the main output window. The Digital output tab is usually used for external sources like a CD drive or something...


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## zaytserr (Sep 1, 2010)

tjk_bail said:


> If your using the Optical out from your Headunit into the Helix, then most peeps us the Main Routing tab. Just drag and drop the Digital outputs (on lower left) into the main output window. The Digital output tab is usually used for external sources like a CD drive or something...


I don't have a head unit. I am using a tablet via usb c to optical conversion on a reiyin dac. I am trying to keep this system simple. Unfortunately the V Eight is anything but simple. The amount of features is overwhelming, when the manufacture doesn't even bother to publish some sort of training manual for those of us that want to learn how to use the damn thing. The manual that comes with this amp is probably the worst thing I have ever read and the translation from German to English in some places is just as bad. I have no one to blame but myself I guess, but even the local dealer told me that it would be so easy to set up the amp/dsp and everything is very intuitive. I lost my previous car audio system in a flood before it was ever completed. It had a Rockford Fosgatge 3sixty.3 that I never even got to tune or fiddle with. So this amp/dsp combo is very much a new thing to me.

Even setting up the proper crossover adjustments is intimidating, but also, looks as though the DSP tool gives you a crossover immediately once all of the IO settings have been made. At this point I don't even want to touch these presets lol.


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

Yes the software has a TON of features and capabilities. It has predetermined crossover settings for certain channels to prevent you from mistakingly sending the wrong signal to the wrong speaker (sub to a tweeter for instance). You can of course choose your own just use caution when setting up. The manual isn't great but it will get you in the right direction. I would try (as i and many others have) to mess with the settings etc without it hooked up to the amp until you feel you have a good baseline. Don't let yourself get overwhelmed you'll get it believe me. Watch some vids etc and it'll come to you. At times it helps me to simply perform a reset and start from fresh. 

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## zaytserr (Sep 1, 2010)

THX0849 said:


> Yes the software has a TON of features and capabilities. It has predetermined crossover settings for certain channels to prevent you from mistakingly sending the wrong signal to the wrong speaker (sub to a tweeter for instance). You can of course choose your own just use caution when setting up. The manual isn't great but it will get you in the right direction. I would try (as i and many others have) to mess with the settings etc without it hooked up to the amp until you feel you have a good baseline. Don't let yourself get overwhelmed you'll get it believe me. Watch some vids etc and it'll come to you. At times it helps me to simply perform a reset and start from fresh.
> 
> Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


I hear ya. Just updating my DRC control now and pretty much done in terms of IO. I am not even going to bother with RTA nor the RTA with a mic yet. I may just have a pro do this, as I am the type of person that likes to set it and forget it. I find the more I tune, the more I mess things up, and end up going back to where am started. I mostly just wanted the V Eight because of the small footprint and the 8 channels if I felt like using them. Also the DSP is basically just a tool to get digital audio from my tablet. At some point I may splurge and buy the USB HEC and get rid of the dac that converts my usb signal to optical. I just didn't want to spend another $300 dollars on top of the $2500 I already dropped on this tiny little piece of hardware. I just hope I can get some music playing. Been waiting 15 years for this type of aftermarket car audio system. Everytime I decide to do a system, life gets in the way.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

All the different Helix DSP's use the same software interface. There is a ton of videos on how to set it up.... Search YouTube for help and remember that you dont have to find a video for your "V Eight".. any video with the Helix interface will match what you have on your computer.

When first getting started like you are, it can be a lil overwhelming, just keep at it.... The Helix Software interface is the easiest to use out of all other high-end DSP's... well IMHO.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Am I just an idiot or am I missing something? I have a Helix V Eight. I dabbled with auto-tune in SW 4.65. I created my own house curve. I loaded my mic's CAL file in the AF directory. It did an OK job but I was not happy with the way I did it.

I auto-tuned the Left, Right, Center, and Subwoofer virtual channels separately. I then went to the output section, linked all channels, and did a final auto tune. This was a good base to start off for manual tune. But, I suspected I could do better with less filters and boost / cut.

A few days ago I upgraded to Software 4.70a. I set everything up like before. Drivers, mic cal file, house curve, etc. However, today I was going to tune differently. I have each driver tuned flat separately in my output section. The only exception is the sub channel which gets a rising frequency response.

My idea is to leave the tunes for the individual drivers alone in the output section. They are dialed in. Crossovers sum properly. L&R sum properly. I was going to use auto-tune to correct response to meet my house curve in virtual channels per Dobslobs recommendation.

1.) I linked Left, Right, Center, and Subwoofer virtual channels together. 
2.) Started the Helix RTA.
3.) Loaded my house curve. 
4.) Started my Periodic Pink Noise.
5.) Started the analyzer. 
6.)Started measurement. 

Everything looks good. 

7.) I made minor adjustments to the offset sliders so measured signal would perfectly overlap the house curve. 
8.) I hit Autoset. 

The typical box opened letting me know what was linked and if i wanted to proceed. 

9.) I clicked yes. 

AND the dang thing just sat there. The software made no attempts to make any adjustments what so ever. After a few minutes the message popped up saying it could not reach the desired curve.

Well, no ****. The software made no attempts to make any adjustments.

I tried everything I could think of to get this to work. I un-linked all virtual channels and tried doing just one at a time. No go. Autoset will not even attempt to make a correction. It just sits there and times out.

I know the software is seeing strong signal. I see it on the RTA. Level is green. What is going on? Why won't it auto-tune anymore?

Edit: I forgot to mention that FROM BAND was set to 25Hz. TO BAND was set to 20KHz.

Ge0


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Ge0 said:


> Am I just an idiot or am I missing something? I have a Helix V Eight. I dabbled with auto-tune in SW 4.65. I created my own house curve. I loaded my mic's CAL file in the AF directory. It did an OK job but I was not happy with the way I did it.
> 
> I auto-tuned the Left, Right, Center, and Subwoofer virtual channels separately. I then went to the output section, linked all channels, and did a final auto tune. This was a good base to start off for manual tune. But, I suspected I could do better with less filters and boost / cut.
> 
> ...


It may have something to do with you trying to tune all the channels at once.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

Did you select ALL speakers in the Main Menu Window...Version 4.70a seems a little flaky....I'm looking forward to the the next version ...


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Frequentflyer said:


> It may have something to do with you trying to tune all the channels at once.


I tried only tuning one virtual channel at a time. Still did not work.

Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

tjk_bail said:


> Did you select ALL speakers in the Main Menu Window...Version 4.70a seems a little flaky....I'm looking forward to the the next version ...


No I did not. I do not want to link the output channels. I do not want to impact my calibration on them. I should be able to tune virtual channels only. 

Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Ge0 said:


> Am I just an idiot or am I missing something? I have a Helix V Eight. I dabbled with auto-tune in SW 4.65. I created my own house curve. I loaded my mic's CAL file in the AF directory. It did an OK job but I was not happy with the way I did it.
> 
> I auto-tuned the Left, Right, Center, and Subwoofer virtual channels separately. I then went to the output section, linked all channels, and did a final auto tune. This was a good base to start off for manual tune. But, I suspected I could do better with less filters and boost / cut.
> 
> ...


OK kids. I solved my own problem. I did a fresh reboot on the amp and computer. Auto tune was a go!!!

You really need to try this for yourselves. Use the Helix output channels to tune each driver individually. Overlay them, combine them, sum them together. Get everything flat and as tight together as you can. That is except for the sub of course which gets a rising response. Once this is done you are golden.

Setting a final tune is as easy as drawing a house curve and hitting Autoset. Take a listen. Hmm, midbass is a tad bit thin? Make fine adjustments to your house curve and hit Autoset again. There it is . This is a damn powerful tool.

Tonality is spot on in my vehicle. My only complaint is I have a slight pull to the right side of the car. The drum beats on the ancient IASCA test disc I have go to center by beat #3. Beats #6 and #7 are far right. I'm not sure if this is a volume imbalance, timing error, or a little bit of both. But, I'll find out in the days to come.

The fact of the matter is I am back up and running to screw things up even worse .

Ge0


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

Ge0 said:


> OK kids. I solved my own problem. I did a fresh reboot on the amp and computer. Auto tune was a go!!!
> 
> You really need to try this for yourselves. Use the Helix output channels to tune each driver individually. Overlay them, combine them, sum them together. Get everything flat and as tight together as you can. That is except for the sub of course which gets a rising response. Once this is done you are golden.
> 
> ...



Congrats on working it out!

Hey, I'm having the same problem that my stage is pulled to the right. I've measured using REW/RTA, and each speaker (3-way+Sub) is spot to its speaker curve. I dont understand why its pulling to the right when each speaker is spot on the curve, and each left & right speaker pair is exactly the same DB level. I double and tripled checked my tape measurements for timing accuracy. I've used the Helix Auto-Timing, but I'm not confident with its findings... I think its from my Mid-Range speakers, but when I isolate the pairs and listen, I can't pin it down... When I play only Tweet pairs its centered, When playing only Mid-Range pairs its centered, when playing Mid-Base pairs its centered, but when all playing, its pulling to right....If you figure out why its happening to you, Hope will post your findings!


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Ge0 said:


> You really need to try this for yourselves. Use the Helix output channels to tune each driver individually. Overlay them, combine them, sum them together. Get everything flat and as tight together as you can. That is except for the sub of course which gets a rising response. Once this is done you are golden.


Can you explain this a little better? What do you mean by overlay them, combine them, etc?


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Frequentflyer said:


> Can you explain this a little better? What do you mean by overlay them, combine them, etc?


This post assumes you have already time aligned and have established proper phase for each driver

This work is done in the Helix output section.
1.) Calibrate left midrange flat to a reference point. I used 84dB. 
2.) Next, do the same for right midrange. 
3.) Play both L&R together. They should combine flat to roughly 90dB. 
4.) Repeat 1-->3 for your L&R tweets and midbass.
5.) Now combine L midbass and L midrange, Does your crossover sum properly? You may need to make a lot of adjustments here
6.) Repeat #5 for each pair of speakers for the Left side. 
7,) Next repeat #6 your Right side.
8.) Combine Left and Right. does everything so far combine flat without huge peaks and dips?
9.( Tune your sub to your preferred curve.
10.) Now combine sub and midbass. Do they cross well? If not experiment with phase and crossover points.

Save.

Now, you don't need to impact the calibration work you just did to tune to a house curve. Using Helix virtual channels you get a whole new set of EQ set points. You can combine virtual channels and make any adjustments you want. Run Autoset EQ to your house curve. It equalizes they entire system via virtual channels without affecting what you already finished and saved in your outputs section.

You can adjust your house curve and do this over and over again. Your base speaker calibrations are still the same in the output section.

Ge0


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Ge0 said:


> This post assumes you have already time aligned and have established proper phase for each driver
> 
> This work is done in the Helix output section.
> 1.) Calibrate left midrange flat to a reference point. I used 84dB.
> ...


Hmmm... interesting. I have been playing with DSP tool for a few months and honestly have no idea WTF Helix Virtual Channels are. LOL. I will have to play with this soon.

I built individual driver curves and tuned each one individually, but never did them as a pair or L/R side. I gain matched them using REW.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Ge0 said:


> OK kids. I solved my own problem. I did a fresh reboot on the amp and computer. Auto tune was a go!!!
> 
> You really need to try this for yourselves. Use the Helix output channels to tune each driver individually. Overlay them, combine them, sum them together. Get everything flat and as tight together as you can. That is except for the sub of course which gets a rising response. Once this is done you are golden.
> 
> ...


That is likely reflections screwing up your stage or a time alignment error, how did you work out time alignment?

Also how are you holding the mic while measuring? Fixed? Moving? Waving ear to ear in front of your face?


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Ge0 said:


> This post assumes you have already time aligned and have established proper phase for each driver
> 
> This work is done in the Helix output section.
> 1.) Calibrate left midrange flat to a reference point. I used 84dB.
> ...


What do you mean when you say "calibrate" flat to a fixed point of 84db? I have created my own separate driver curves in the Helix RTA that I auto-tune with and then I just gain match them using REW. I also use REW to fine tune because the Helix RTA doesn't have the fidelity REW has.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

dumdum said:


> That is likely reflections screwing up your stage or a time alignment error, how did you work out time alignment?
> 
> Also how are you holding the mic while measuring? Fixed? Moving? Waving ear to ear in front of your face?


Time alignment via tape measure. Measurements may be off +/-2cm

Frequency measurements are taken with mic at 90 degree position. Average taken from 4 fixed measurements at unique locations around the head rest.

I believe my small right side bias is more due to an amplitude imbalance between upper midrange and tweets vs. timing error. I needed to add nearly 0.5 meter offset to the left side midrange to balance L&R sides but the image was smearing at other frequencies. 

I don't see me being THAT inaccurate with a tape measure . 

Ge0


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

Yep, my guess is reflections. The microphone is picking up the re-elections that are likely more prominent on the driver side with the driver side window being so close to the microphone (this happens on the passenger side too but I’m guessing less so). So the tuning when matching the curves likely has the passenger side a bit louder to balance the greater reflections near the mic on the driver side. Our ears are better at focusing on the direct sound which results in the system sounding a bit louder from the passenger/right side to match the amplitude of the increased reflections on the driver/left side.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Frequentflyer said:


> What do you mean when you say "calibrate" flat to a fixed point of 84db? I have created my own separate driver curves in the Helix RTA that I auto-tune with and then I just gain match them using REW. I also use REW to fine tune because the Helix RTA doesn't have the fidelity REW has.
> 
> View attachment 276716


Calibrate , or "tune" to a reference level of roughly 84dB

Left, Center, and Right midranges









Left, Center, and Right midranges plus L&R tweet plus L&R midbass









Get everything flat. Make sure Left side crossovers sum properly. Make sure Right side crossovers sum properly.

I only use the Helix RTA for Autotuning.

Ge0


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

Ge0 said:


> This post assumes you have already time aligned and have established proper phase for each driver
> 
> This work is done in the Helix output section.
> 1.) Calibrate left midrange flat to a reference point. I used 84dB.
> ...


This is pretty cool. My helix p six doesn’t have virtual channels, but this is a neat use for them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Mauian said:


> Yep, my guess is reflections. The microphone is picking up the re-elections that are likely more prominent on the driver side with the driver side window being so close to the microphone (this happens on the passenger side too but I’m guessing less so). So the tuning when matching the curves likely has the passenger side a bit louder to balance the greater reflections near the mic on the driver side. Our ears are better at focusing on the direct sound which results in the system sounding a bit louder from the passenger/right side to match the amplitude of the increased reflections on the driver/left side.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sounds reasonable enough ole chap. 

I just need to turn off the reflections. How do you do this? <--- JUST KIDDING 

I really need to get the tweets out of the factory location in the dash. Firing up at the glass and then reflecting back at the listening position causes pretty big response disturbances.

Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Mauian said:


> This is pretty cool. My helix p six doesn’t have virtual channels, but this is a neat use for them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's almost like having a 2nd processor in series with your main processor. I can change whatever I want in the virtual channels and not impact my main settings.

Here, one Virtual channel contains the entire Left side. Another one exists just like it for the Right side.









Center, Rear Fill, and Subwoofer get their own virtual channels.

I link them all together (red dot next to channel name) and then go to Autotune. Here is the results from last night.

Ge0


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Mauian said:


> This is pretty cool. My helix p six doesn’t have virtual channels, but this is a neat use for them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I was going nuts trying to find virtual channels in my P6 and realized it doesn't have it. Must be a option with the ACO based dsps. That is cool poop right there.

Regarding window reflections. Would it be worth tuning with the side windows down or not?

Ironically my dash mounted tweeters have been easiest to tune. It's been my dash mounted midranges that have been a challenge.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Frequentflyer said:


> I was going nuts trying to find virtual channels in my P6 and realized it doesn't have it. Must be a option with the ACO based dsps. That is cool poop right there.
> 
> Regarding window reflections. Would it be worth tuning with the side windows down or not?
> 
> Ironically my dash mounted tweeters have been easiest to tune. It's been my dash mounted midranges that have been a challenge.


I am constantly waffling back and forth between having a highway tune vs. a slow speed tune (crossovers mostly to allow louder listening) and having a windows up and a windows down tune. RIP urc.3 and your limitations.


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

I have to fight the urge that I have NOT to adjust my tune just because the measured line looks pretty. I’ve been focusing on objective data and measurement for so long and find it very satisfying to lock in a great smooth frequency response curve for my system with “everything matching up;” L and R sides, driver pairs, etc. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) it seems our ears have the final say and I really should free myself to disturb my perfect measurements if it sounds good. Like why not lower the R side level a bit to better center the image? This is something I have a hard time giving into but I’m sure many on here would say is a good idea (and I would agree with them...it’s just hard) 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

Mauian said:


> I have to fight the urge that I have NOT to adjust my tune just because the measured line looks pretty. I’ve been focusing on objective data and measurement for so long and find it very satisfying to lock in a great smooth frequency response curve for my system with “everything matching up;” L and R sides, driver pairs, etc. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) it seems our ears have the final say and I really should free myself to disturb my perfect measurements if it sounds good. Like why not lower the R side level a bit to better center the image? This is something I have a hard time giving into but I’m sure many on here would say is a good idea (and I would agree with them...it’s just hard)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



oh yeah... .. I have tried lowering the Right side, and just the Right Mid-range, tried every speaker volume adjustment .. it just throws other stuff off.... I'm pretty sure its the upper half of the Mid-Range frequency range. My Mid-Range are crossed 340/3200, and I think the probs are in the 1.2k to 2.5k range, because when I measure the Left MidR and Right MidR toghether, the combined freq dips in that area, even though I have a 5db increase through the Crossover between the MidR and Tweets... I may have to try a Allpass filter there...


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

tjk_bail said:


> oh yeah... .. I have tried lowering the Right side, and just the Right Mid-range, tried every speaker volume adjustment .. it just throws other stuff off.... I'm pretty sure its the upper half of the Mid-Range frequency range. My Mid-Range are crossed 340/3200, and I think the probs are in the 1.2k to 2.5k range, because when I measure the Left MidR and Right MidR toghether, the combined freq dips in that area, even though I have a 5db increase through the Crossover between the MidR and Tweets... I may have to try a Allpass filter there...


That was just one (random) example, but yeah, I hear you. I’ve had that happen too. Working with band passed pink noise when doing this is good (to avoid lowering an entire side or the whole midbass). But again, just a random example, and I agree, sometimes it throws things off (which makes me love the objectivity of my measurements even more). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

Mauian said:


> That was just one (random) example, but yeah, I hear you. I’ve had that happen too. Working with band passed pink noise when doing this is good (to avoid lowering an entire side or the whole midbass). But again, just a random example, and I agree, sometimes it throws things off (which makes me love the objectivity of my measurements even more).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



OHH ****..... I completely forgot about band passed pink noise, I used when first tuning this tune.... then forgot about using it again.. THANKS for the reminder !!!!...


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

opekone said:


> I am constantly waffling back and forth between having a highway tune vs. a slow speed tune (crossovers mostly to allow louder listening) and having a windows up and a windows down tune. RIP urc.3 and your limitations.


Here's some measurements of my left tweeter (no EQ). Green is windows closed and blue is windows open. It looks like you definitely lose a few db with the windows open, but it didn't alter the curve as much as I thought it would. Not sure what it'd look like once EQ'd. I guess I will try that next.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Depending on my particular tune opening the windows can widen or narrow the soundstage. You can play with the helix xpander to feel some of that while only touching one setting.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

opekone said:


> Depending on my particular tune opening the windows can widen or narrow the soundstage. You can play with the helix xpander to feel some of that while only touching one setting.


What is your experience with the xpander? I sat and evaluated it on L/R channels the other night. It doesn't necessarily widen the sound stage. But, makes the edges seem louder. In the process it pulled the sound stage forward.. 

Example. My sound stage was centered and at the edge of the windshield and hood. Turning on xpander made a subtle difference. However, as you move the slider to the HIGH setting the edges of the stage become more defined. Hoewever, it drew my sound stage up to the forward edge of the dash. Depth disappeared. I may try using it at low and the next setting up. But, the trade off is too great once you go to position 3 then 4 (high).

Ge0


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Ge0 said:


> Calibrate , or "tune" to a reference level of roughly 84dB
> 
> Left, Center, and Right midranges
> View attachment 276717
> ...


Can you take measurements of left and right then everything so we can see how they sum together. And might spot some phase issues.

another thing is you need to adjust the crossover frequency range so they are literally right on top of each other. You have four different crossover areas just within it aroind 3050,3200,3225 and 3500 I’ve seen that cause phase issues many times









Try to make there be 1 crossover frequency like this It’s the only pic I could find that has both mids and tweets


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Selkec said:


> Can you take measurements of left and right then everything so we can see how they sum together. And might spot some phase issues.
> 
> another thing is you need to adjust the crossover frequency range so they are literally right on top of each other. You have four different crossover areas just within it aroind 3050,3200,3225 and 3500 I’ve seen that cause phase issues many times
> View attachment 276833


Yes, I get it. I don't have screen caps handy but the crossover regions here sum just fine. I can set a 24dB/octave LR crossover but the speakers measured frequency response with crossover filter active blows right past the crossover point. So, I need to manually manipulate speaker response at the crossover frequency to shape the roll off and to get them to sum flat.

I expect this is a side effect of my current door mounted midrange solution. I'm just starting the process of making physical adjustments to cut down on frequency response anomalies.

Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Selkec said:


> Can you take measurements of left and right then everything so we can see how they sum together. And might spot some phase issues.
> 
> another thing is you need to adjust the crossover frequency range so they are literally right on top of each other. You have four different crossover areas just within it aroind 3050,3200,3225 and 3500 I’ve seen that cause phase issues many times
> View attachment 276833
> ...


OK, I just noticed a big difference. You're displaying your data filtered to 1/3rd octave. Mine was locked in at 1/6th octave. Maybe I need to re-open that tuning session and filter at 1/3rd to compare apples to apples.

Ge0


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## dhmcfadin (Sep 28, 2017)

Ge0 said:


> OK, I just noticed a big difference. You're displaying your data filtered to 1/3rd octave. Mine was locked in at 1/6th octave. Maybe I need to re-open that tuning session and filter at 1/3rd to compare apples to apples.
> 
> Ge0


With 1/6th octave you should be able to get left/right crossovers and frequency responses to look as smooth and cohesive as 1/3rd octave appears. You can get there and it’s crucial to overall outcome of your system. You just need to spend a little more time working on it.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

dhmcfadin said:


> With 1/6th octave you should be able to get left/right crossovers and frequency responses to look as smooth and cohesive as 1/3rd octave appears. You can get there and it’s crucial to overall outcome of your system. You just need to spend a little more time working on it.


And how many filters would I have to set in this process that would totally **** up phase response? Each boost and cut affects phase. If I set 30 filters to make my frequency response look flat as a board what does my resulting phase look like?

My idea is to use the measurements as a tool to determine where I have nasty reflections and interference points. I'll address them as good as I can then re-measure. Eventually I'll come to a point where I make enough sacrifice in the physical realm to settle on making adjustments electronically. 

It's a fools game to keep chasing a perfect curve using mic measurements only.

Ge0


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## dhmcfadin (Sep 28, 2017)

Ge0 said:


> And how many filters would I have to set in this process that would totally **** up phase response? Each boost and cut affects phase. If I set 30 filters to make my frequency response look flat as a board what does my resulting phase look like?
> 
> My idea is to use the measurements as a tool to determine where I have nasty reflections and interference points. I'll address them as good as I can then re-measure. Eventually I'll come to a point where I make enough sacrifice in the physical realm to settle on making adjustments electronically.
> 
> ...


Definitely don’t need 30 filters. 15 strategically adjusted bands will get you there with no phase issues. But I retract my last comment. I wasn’t taking into considering your speaker placement. That’s a huge part of the equation. You’ve got a good plan of action.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

It was my understanding that for the most part, the phase response is relative to the frequency response. So if you make the frequency response match between left/right, regardless of how many filters you use to do it, then the phase response will also match between left/right. I believe this is called "Minimum Phase" and that generally speaking, cars are "minimum phase" environments"?

Again, this is just my understanding - I'm certainly no expert on phase. I'm curious if my understanding is correct or not though.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Ge0 said:


> What is your experience with the xpander? I sat and evaluated it on L/R channels the other night. It doesn't necessarily widen the sound stage. But, makes the edges seem louder. In the process it pulled the sound stage forward..
> 
> Example. My sound stage was centered and at the edge of the windshield and hood. Turning on xpander made a subtle difference. However, as you move the slider to the HIGH setting the edges of the stage become more defined. Hoewever, it drew my sound stage up to the forward edge of the dash. Depth disappeared. I may try using it at low and the next setting up. But, the trade off is too great once you go to position 3 then 4 (high).
> 
> Ge0


I really wanted to load up a handful of old tunes and play around with my windows and the expander to try to come up with a better understanding of the situation but one of my morels desoldered itself.

I have noticed the impact (whether it widens the stage or not) and the intensity of the impact is based on my current tune.

I may be able to give more information once I get my speakers replaced

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

dhmcfadin said:


> Definitely don’t need 30 filters. 15 strategically adjusted bands will get you there with no phase issues. But I retract my last comment. I wasn’t taking into considering your speaker placement. That’s a huge part of the equation. You’ve got a good plan of action.


Heh. You know how it goes. You start a new install thinking that factory locations are going to be good enough. Then, you run into limitations. 

Next, you dream up some wild new speaker mounting scheme with pods or pillars or whatever. You go through a lot of work to get the new locations done. Then re-test. Then you find out it did not make that much of an improvement. 

Then you go to even more extremes. What started out as being a simple project turns into a year of experimentation and labor. You finally get the car tuned in just right. Then sell it 2 years later.

We're just all car audio junkies around here...

Ge0


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

With the StageXpander, I've found that it effects different songs differently. Some songs it sounded alright, but it really messed up the staging on others. 

My understanding is that it's really best used with the RealCenter feature when you also have a center channel....


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

jtrosky said:


> With the StageXpander, I've found that it effects different songs differently. Some songs it sounded alright, but it really messed up the staging on others.
> 
> My understanding is that it's really best used with the RealCenter feature when you also have a center channel....


Well, I do have a center channel and am using real center. I tried stage xpander on L/R channels. This is my point of reference. I've tried it on the center channel but I didn't notice much of a difference. 

Ge0


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## dhmcfadin (Sep 28, 2017)

Ge0 said:


> Heh. You know how it goes. You start a new install thinking that factory locations are going to be good enough. Then, you run into limitations.
> 
> Next, you dream up some wild new speaker mounting scheme with pods or pillars or whatever. You go through a lot of work to get the new locations done. Then re-test. Then you find out it did not make that much of an improvement.
> 
> ...


Lol. So true.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Ge0 said:


> Yes, I get it. I don't have screen caps handy but the crossover regions here sum just fine. I can set a 24dB/octave LR crossover but the speakers measured frequency response with crossover filter active blows right past the crossover point. So, I need to manually manipulate speaker response at the crossover frequency to shape the roll off and to get them to sum flat.
> 
> I expect this is a side effect of my current door mounted midrange solution. I'm just starting the process of making physical adjustments to cut down on frequency response anomalies.
> 
> Ge0





Ge0 said:


> OK, I just noticed a big difference. You're displaying your data filtered to 1/3rd octave. Mine was locked in at 1/6th octave. Maybe I need to re-open that tuning session and filter at 1/3rd to compare apples to apples.
> 
> Ge0


I got a couple of you mixed up. Lol I thought you posted your stage was pulling to the right That’s why I said that about the crossover region. But never mind be a use it was someone else that I don’t think has posted any responses. Anyways if he is reading this maybe he can post some graphs. His right side might be a summing just a little bit louder. Or he could always link the driver side and use the time alignment to shift it back to center.

1/6th, now it’s 🍎 to 🍎 😜


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Selkec said:


> I got a couple of you mixed up. Lol I thought you posted your stage was pulling to the right That’s why I said that about the crossover region. But never mind be a use it was someone else that I don’t think has posted any responses. Anyways if he is reading this maybe he can post some graphs. His right side might be a summing just a little bit louder. Or he could always link the driver side and use the time alignment to shift it back to center.
> 
> 1/6th, now it’s 🍎 to 🍎 😜
> View attachment 276898


Your memory isn't that bad. I was getting a slight shift to the right. Even though everything on my screen looked similar to yours. I used the IASCA snare drum track to hunt it down.

With only midbasses enabled the drum locations going across the stage were spot on. 
With only midranges enabled the drum locations going across the stage were still spot on. 
With only tweeters enabled the first three drum strikes were far left. The 4th drum strike pulled 75% right. The last three drum strikes were far right.
Hmm. Something here has gone awry... I do know that position information for frequencies higher that 3KHz (my crossover point) is derived from amplitude variance vs. timing variance. So, I cut the right side tweeter volume -3dB and the problem went away.

Mauian mentioned in this thread thta I may have a volume imbalance due to making adjustments to compensate for reflections. It appears he was correct.

NOW, tell me about the measurements you're sharing above. Locations of speakers? Measurement method? Number of averages? Type of DSP? Your midranges are matched fairly well but the tweets look great.

Ge0


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Ge0 said:


> Your memory isn't that bad. I was getting a slight shift to the right. Even though everything on my screen looked similar to yours. I used the IASCA snare drum track to hunt it down.
> 
> With only midbasses enabled the drum locations going across the stage were spot on.
> With only midranges enabled the drum locations going across the stage were still spot on.
> ...


Ear to ear method for 160-200 averages. Helix dsp.3 All drivers in the door. I’ve got the mids closer this past week but didn’t save the measurements🙄 I just used that pic because it was available and showed the crossover region like I had mentioned. Thats funny you mention the 7 snare track as I was just trying to find it on my hard drive 20 minutes ago


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Selkec said:


> Ear to ear method for 160-200 averages. Helix dsp.3 All drivers in the door. I’ve got the mids closer this past week but didn’t save the measurements🙄 I just used that pic because it was available and showed the crossover region like I had mentioned. Thats funny you mention the 7 snare track as I was just trying to find it on my hard drive 20 minutes ago
> View attachment 276900


I found your build thread a few hours ago. It looks like mounting tweets in sail panels may be in my future. Much less reflections than firing at the glass from factory locations in my dash. Also, you mounted your midranges to the outer door card. Mine are tucked in behind it. I'm getting some nasty affects from that too. All things for me to consider. Do I want to cut my car up for the sake of a stereo install? Hmmm...

Ge0


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Ge0 said:


> I found your build thread a few hours ago. It looks like mounting tweets in sail panels may be in my future. Much less reflections than firing at the glass from factory locations in my dash. Also, you mounted your midranges to the outer door card. Mine are tucked in behind it. I'm getting some nasty affects from that too. All things for me to consider. Do I want to cut my car up for the sake of a stereo install? Hmmm...
> 
> Ge0


I had my midrange also inside the door in the factory location and could never get it sounding right. I’m glad I cut my door cards up for them lol Made a world of difference and was totally worth it.
Now I want/need to make or have someone make me something to get the mids out of the door some to make room for Stevens mb8 2ohm midbass. 
Maybe some sort of pods or something and I may as well get them more on axis while I’m at it.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Selkec said:


> I had my midrange also inside the door in the factory location and could never get it sounding right. I’m glad I cut my door cards up for them lol Made a world of difference and was totally worth it.
> Now I want/need to make or have someone make me something to get the mids out of the door some to make room for Stevens mb8 2ohm midbass.
> Maybe some sort of pods or something and I may as well get them more on axis while I’m at it.


You don't need the MB-8's on axis. They will play omni-directionally throughout a typical midbass pass band.

Ge0


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Ge0 said:


> You don't need the MB-8's on axis. They will play omni-directionally throughout a typical midbass pass band.
> 
> Ge0


yeah. I meant the midrange I may as well angle on axis which will give me the clearance to fit the mb8. Right now the magnets on the mids is in the way of going from a 6.5” to an 8” midbass I suppose even a Steven’s 6.5” 2ohm midbass would probably be quite a bit louder than the audison wouldnt it? Either way I have to move the mids out and have to make a new mount for any midbass I use.


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## zaytserr (Sep 1, 2010)

Has anyone ever experienced the audio completely shutting off as well as the director when putting your vehicle in drive after just finishing the intall? First time I go to take a drive with my new system installed, the audio completely cut off and then went into protection mode as soon as I start driving slowly out of my garage. I listend to the system parked when everything in the interior was apart. Also listened to it when everything was put back together. But as soon I go to drive, the audio cuts off, even though my tablet is still playing the song. The Director has also just went blank and rebooted as well when backing into my garage after attempting to drive it out of the garage. The director only went into protection mode the first time. God I hope I don't have a $2500 paper weight.

I posted the topic here.... Helix V Eight MK2 DSP and Director Rebooting, Protection...


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

zaytserr said:


> Has anyone ever experienced the audio completely shutting off as well as the director when putting your vehicle in drive after just finishing the intall? First time I go to take a drive with my new system installed, the audio completely cut off and then went into protection mode as soon as I start driving slowly out of my garage. I listend to the system parked when everything in the interior was apart. Also listened to it when everything was put back together. But as soon I go to drive, the audio cuts off, even though my tablet is still playing the song. The Director has also just went blank and rebooted as well when backing into my garage after attempting to drive it out of the garage. The director only went into protection mode the first time. God I hope I don't have a $2500 paper weight.
> 
> I posted the topic here.... Helix V Eight MK2 DSP and Director Rebooting, Protection...


Could you somehow tapped into the "reverse" wire like is done with cameras? will it do it if you just put in reverse but do not move the car?


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## zaytserr (Sep 1, 2010)

Selkec said:


> Could you somehow tapped into the "reverse" wire like is done with cameras? will it do it if you just put in reverse but do not move the car?


One thought In had was that the wire I have tapped into somehow shuts off when I put the truck in drive. However, the audio doesn't shut off until I start rolling. Sometimes it can be a couple of feet or 20 feet. Then the Audio goes off and I get pissed off and put it into reverse to back into my garage. Sometimes it boots back up and sometimes it doesn't. Also sometimes the director won't turn back on after I shut off the truck and wait for a bit and then turn accessory back on. So I don't think the remote wire is the problem. However the director wire plug looks like an Old School S Video cable and it doesn't seat into the amp tightly. It wiggles around. I had audio playing while stationery and wiggled the cable, but it didn't seem to cut the audio off. Also the last two times I managed to get audio to play, the volume was way lower than what the actual volume on the director shows. I really fear I may have ruined this amp somehow, but cannot see how that is possible. Even when testing it before putting my interior back together, I really felt like the volume was lacking. Also the amp doesn't even get warm at all so I can't see any issue with overheating.

I am at a total loss and am patiently waiting to hear from the local dealer to see if there is software setting I overlooked or have set incorrectly.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

jtrosky said:


> It was my understanding that for the most part, the phase response is relative to the frequency response. So if you make the frequency response match between left/right, regardless of how many filters you use to do it, then the phase response will also match between left/right. I believe this is called "Minimum Phase" and that generally speaking, cars are "minimum phase" environments"?
> 
> Again, this is just my understanding - I'm certainly no expert on phase. I'm curious if my understanding is correct or not though.


Try reading this short article. I think you're confusing the term "minimum phase".









Linear Vs Minimum Phase EQ - When To Use Which


What's the difference? Is linear better for mastering? What are the side-effects of each? Does it make a difference? Should you care?




unlockyoursound.com





Ge0


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

zaytserr said:


> Has anyone ever experienced the audio completely shutting off as well as the director when putting your vehicle in drive after just finishing the intall? First time I go to take a drive with my new system installed, the audio completely cut off and then went into protection mode as soon as I start driving slowly out of my garage. I listend to the system parked when everything in the interior was apart. Also listened to it when everything was put back together. But as soon I go to drive, the audio cuts off, even though my tablet is still playing the song. The Director has also just went blank and rebooted as well when backing into my garage after attempting to drive it out of the garage. The director only went into protection mode the first time. God I hope I don't have a $2500 paper weight.
> 
> I posted the topic here.... Helix V Eight MK2 DSP and Director Rebooting, Protection...


What head unit do you have? Do you use any harnesses or idatalink maestro? If you have a head unit that plays videos it will have a wire it makes you connect to something to know when the car is moving so you can’t watch videos when in motion. If you do have a head unit like this just connect that wire to ground or the head units chassis then it won’t disable anything when in drive or moving


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Ge0 said:


> Try reading this short article. I think you're confusing the term "minimum phase".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think we are talking about different types of "minimum phase". I'm not talking about the type of EQ system itself, I'm talking about a "minimum phase environment", such as a car environment (which, from my understanding is mostly a "minimum phase" environment). It's my understanding that, in a minimum phase environment, if you flatten the EQ response, you also flatten the phase response. This is something I've learned from @SkizeR. Here are a few examples of him talking about this:

What's the best DSP (for the money)?

Helix DSP Pro MK3 - Who has info?

EQ'ing frequency response - what effects phase the...

EQ'ing frequency response - what effects phase the...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

jtrosky said:


> I think we are talking about different types of "minimum phase". I'm not talking about the type of EQ system itself, I'm talking about a "minimum phase environment", such as a car environment (which, from my understanding is mostly a "minimum phase" environment). It's my understanding that, in a minimum phase environment, if you flatten the EQ response, you also flatten the phase response. This is something I've learned from @SkizeR. Here are a few examples of him talking about this:
> 
> What's the best DSP (for the money)?
> 
> ...


A car isn't a minimum phase environment but it behaves very closely

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

SkizeR said:


> A car isn't a minimum phase environment but it behaves very closely
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


What exactly does a "minimum phase environment" actually mean? What determines if an "environment" in a "minimum phase" environment? I'm not real clear on how that term is actually defined.... 

Thank you!


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## zaytserr (Sep 1, 2010)

Selkec said:


> What head unit do you have? Do you use any harnesses or idatalink maestro? If you have a head unit that plays videos it will have a wire it makes you connect to something to know when the car is moving so you can’t watch videos when in motion. If you do have a head unit like this just connect that wire to ground or the head units chassis then it won’t disable anything when in drive or moving


Selkec, i don't use a head unit. All of my factory equipment has been removed. I do not use High Level inputs, just optical. My head unit is a Google Pixel C tablet with dash modification that goes to a 20 pin magnetic USB OTG connector that goes to a USB C hub for charging and a Reiyin USB to Optical. Then the optical goes straight to the V Eight. I am tired of CD's and tired of Head units with lack of features and flexability. 

I know for a fact that the USB 20 pin connector is not an issue, as I have plugged the USB C hub directly to the tablet as well and the Director and Amp still shut off when rolling out of my garage and especially stepping on the accelerator pedal. I really believe something weird is going on with my ground or power with my battery. I am going to try different ground locations and try a remote wire directly from battery with a switch to manually turn the amp on and off without accessory at the ignition switch. This is to see if for some reason the remote wire that I have tapped into the factory head unit harness somehow turns of or is intermittent when the vehicle is in drive and in motion. I don't think this is the case, I believe that as i step on the accelerator the alternator is pushing more current and therefore something is being detected as harmful to the amp. However, the fact the Director and amp just totally turn off really concerns me, as it doesn't even go into protect mode like it did on my first trip after installation was finished.

Also I will continue to bother the local dealer as they said they would help if I had any problems when I bought the damn thing. But they seem to be really busy.


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

jtrosky said:


> I think we are talking about different types of "minimum phase". I'm not talking about the type of EQ system itself, I'm talking about a "minimum phase environment", such as a car environment (which, from my understanding is mostly a "minimum phase" environment). It's my understanding that, in a minimum phase environment, if you flatten the EQ response, you also flatten the phase response. This is something I've learned from @SkizeR. Here are a few examples of him talking about this:
> 
> What's the best DSP (for the money)?
> 
> ...


Read into this further. Very little of the frequency bandwidth in my car matches the "minimum phase" description. You can do a simple test and check your vehicle for yourself. Run a sine sweep in REW. Goto the GD (group delay) tab. Generate the minimum phase plot. Select the excess group delay trace.









Anywhere that is flat is considered a minimum phase region. As you can see in my vehicle, as it is tuned now, that only encompasses some of my sub range starting at 35Hz, midbass (70Hz to 400Hz), and lower midrange out to about 900Hz. Maybe a little more between 900Hz and 1.6KHz. But, that's it.

Also, keep this in mind. If you tune L & R independently to try and match amplitude response you wreck minimum phase response. L&R need to be tuned together to keep minimum phase.

At least that's what I gathered from 4 hours of reading today.

EDIT: My apologies. I displayed the wrong graph above. That was for midbass only. Any data below 70HZ or above 400HZ is not valid. Here is my full range graph, which is quite a bit better.









The interesting thing is that this graph was derived from a tune that made heavy use of independent L & R equalization. So, what does that tell us?

Ge0


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

Dang, I would not know how to tune my entire system by tuning L&R together. Seems almost impossible to ensure L & Right levels would be correct, so the stage would be allover the place. 

Have you tuned this way yet?


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

tjk_bail said:


> Dang, I would not know how to tune my entire system by tuning L&R together. Seems almost impossible to ensure L & Right levels would be correct, so the stage would be allover the place.
> 
> Have you tuned this way yet?


Heh, that method always produced the best results back when I was using a conventional IIR only DSP. Level match, set delays by distance, EQ everything playing together to a final target, use balance to center image.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

.... I'll give it a shot....sounds kinda interesting really......

Did you use the moving mic method (with infinite averaging), or sweeps, then average them? 

Sounds like you've moved on to the FIR DSP huh?


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

tjk_bail said:


> .... I'll give it a shot....sounds kinda interesting really......
> 
> Did you use the moving mic method (with infinite averaging), or sweeps, then average them?
> 
> Sounds like you've moved on to the FIR DSP huh?


Yes, moving mic / pink noise / infinite averaging. I don't go from ear to ear though - I'll do 15sec of figure 8s around one ear and then the other... More mic time around ears and less time going around front of face.
Current DSP is in my sig.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

tjk_bail said:


> Dang, I would not know how to tune my entire system by tuning L&R together. Seems almost impossible to ensure L & Right levels would be correct, so the stage would be allover the place.
> 
> Have you tuned this way yet?


Not yet. But, I have not been happy with the results of using pink noise to shape the response of each speaker independently. This includes radically different EQ curves to get L & R speaker pairs to match.

So, I'll venture out and try something new...

Set time alignment and crossover first. Then sweep to see minimum phase region. Then long pink noise averaging at each ear to determine what EQ I need to correct overall response.

I will use 1/6th octave resolution in minimum phase regions. I will use 1/3rd octave resolution outside miminum phase regions.

Ge0


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## dobslob (Sep 19, 2011)

To anyone who was using RCA inputs and getting alternator whine as a result of switching to 4.70a, it may be because in 4.70a the default for the ADEP circuit changed and my be affecting the ground reference in the input section.

Go to DCM > ACO Features and in the ADEP.3 section of the screen Disable the Compatibility.

Sorry for the delay in responding. I don't get much time to spend here sometimes.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

nice! What’s adep.3?


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## phocas (Jul 29, 2019)

dobslob said:


> To anyone who was using RCA inputs and getting alternator whine as a result of switching to 4.70a, it may be because in 4.70a the default for the ADEP circuit changed and my be affecting the ground reference in the input section.
> 
> Go to DCM > ACO Features and in the ADEP.3 section of the screen Disable the Compatibility.
> 
> Sorry for the delay in responding. I don't get much time to spend here sometimes.


I am soooo hoping this fixes my issue. Its not loud, but its def there, only for the headunit not digi input. Will report back after work.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

dobslob said:


> To anyone who was using RCA inputs and getting alternator whine as a result of switching to 4.70a, it may be because in 4.70a the default for the ADEP circuit changed and my be affecting the ground reference in the input section.
> 
> Go to DCM > ACO Features and in the ADEP.3 section of the screen Disable the Compatibility.
> 
> Sorry for the delay in responding. I don't get much time to spend here sometimes.


Doug,

I did hear a few folks complain about this. They switched back to 4.65. Thanks for posting this response. The solution is not very intuitive and will help folks out.

Ge0


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dobslob said:


> To anyone who was using RCA inputs and getting alternator whine as a result of switching to 4.70a, it may be because in 4.70a the default for the ADEP circuit changed and my be affecting the ground reference in the input section.
> 
> Go to DCM > ACO Features and in the ADEP.3 section of the screen Disable the Compatibility.
> 
> Sorry for the delay in responding. I don't get much time to spend here sometimes.


I had ground loop noise also @phocas and there's a switch in the ultra you can flip that stopped it for me. I can get the manual out and tell you what it was.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Selkec said:


> nice! What’s adep.3?


Here is the manual text for the "ADEP.3 Configuration" setting in my DSP.3 manual:


```
If the DSP.3 is connected to an OEM radio via the highlevel inputs it may happen that the ADEP.3 circuit has to be adapted to the diagnostic mode of the radio if the latter is equipped with a so-called “class SB” output stage”. The ADEP.3 circuit should be adjusted if there are e.g. distortions in the upper volume range. The compatibility mode is disabled ex works.
```
It sounds like the "ADEP.3 Configuration" setting defaulted to "Disabled" on previous versions of the software, but now defaults to "Enabled" on the latest beta release. 

No idea what a "class SB output stage" is though.


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## phocas (Jul 29, 2019)

Sam Spade said:


> I had ground loop noise also @phocas and there's a switch in the ultra you can flip that stopped it for me. I can get the manual out and tell you what it was.


I tried grounding switches prior to what Doug suggested, i still have residual noise only from the HU that was not present before update and not present with coax. I tried what Doug suggested and the noise is still there. I am going to go through the install again, I am not giving up. So many variables.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

phocas said:


> I tried grounding switches prior to what Doug suggested, i still have residual noise only from the HU that was not present before update and not present with coax. I tried what Doug suggested and the noise is still there. I am going to go through the install again, I am not giving up. So many variables.


That's a bummer. I struggle with electronics unless it is plug and play. So I got my gear installed by a place that specialises in mobile audio, communications, electrical upgrades and they do commercial equipment for communications and logistics also. They put in a proper dual battery system for outback off road work as I have a 4wd and it doubles as a battery in close proximity to three 330watt rms per channel amps. They are real experts and used excellent cabling and routing and really know what they are doing and still had a ground loop problem but the dip switch fixed it. My manual says if you need to tie the signal and power ground together connect them by a 200 ohm resistor. Have you tried that?

you can find it on page 26, section 6 of the ultra manual that you should be able to download if you don't have it all ready.


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## phocas (Jul 29, 2019)

Sam Spade said:


> That's a bummer. I struggle with electronics unless it is plug and play. So I got my gear installed by a place that specialises in mobile audio, communications, electrical upgrades and they do commercial equipment for communications and logistics also. They put in a proper dual battery system for outback off road work as I have a 4wd and it doubles as a battery in close proximity to three 330watt rms per channel amps. They are real experts and used excellent cabling and routing and really know what they are doing and still had a ground loop problem but the dip switch fixed it. My manual says if you need to tie the signal and power ground together connect them by a 200 ohm resistor. Have you tried that?
> 
> you can find it on page 26, section 6 of the ultra manual that you should be able to download if you don't have it all ready.


I did tie the signal and power ground together directly then made sure the switch was to the position it specified for that, 7am here still drinking coffee. 
I will be troubleshooting today, I just made the change last night so I am going to retrace my steps and make sure all is updated and everything is good. Like I said, 0 noise with coax, so I believe its something i overlooked or made a mistake with.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

But what is adep? Lol I dint remember connecting this “adep” thing to my radio lol


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## phocas (Jul 29, 2019)

Selkec said:


> But what is adep? Lol I dint remember connecting this “adep” thing to my radio lol


Looks like this "fix" is only for high lvl inputs, is that right?


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

No clue since I still have no idea what idep is 😂 There was other glitches in the software that I got also so I’ll wait


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Selkec said:


> But what is adep? Lol I dint remember connecting this “adep” thing to my radio lol


Here is a better definition of what ADEP actually is from my DSP.3 manual:


```
Smart highlevel input ADEP.3 

Modern, factory-installed car radios incorporate sophisticated possibilities of diagnosing the connected speakers. In particular the latest generation of car radios are equipped with additional monitoring functions so that failure messages and loss of specific features (e.g. fader function) quite often appear if a signal processor will be hooked up – but not with the DSP.3. The new ADEP.3 circuit (Advanced Diagnostics Error Protection, 3rd Generation) avoids all these problems without loading the speaker outputs of the OE radio during high volumes unnecessarily.
```
So that is what it is.  It's all in the manual.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Not experiencing any ground loops with optical inputs .

Ge0


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

This is a long one, but....

I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly. When you talk about tuning left and right "together", you are not tuning the individual speakers AT ALL by themselves - only tuning them as L+R pairs? At least with my car, there can be up to a 10dB difference between the left and right individual speaker responses at certain parts of the frequency range (at the listening position) - in both my midbass and my dash speakers. If I'm understanding you, I don't see how you could possibly get a good center image tuning that way? When all is said and done, I'd stil have an up to 10dB difference between left and right - in some critical areas of the response... 

By tuning each speaker individually so that the left and right speakers "match" in terms of frequency response at the listening position, I end up with a "combined" L+R response that has the same overall "shape" as the individual left/right speaker responses, just at a higher dB level since they are being summed together. If I had any significant phase issues, I'd expect the left+right combined response to have a different "shape" than the individual L/R speaker responses. So basically, what I'm saying is that you can get a rough idea of any significant phase issues just from the measured frequency response of the L+R speaker pair, by comparing it to the individual frequency response measurements. At least that is my understanding - keep reading for more detail....

In my car, I actually _do_ have some significant phase issues, which are easily identified by the significant dips in my L+R combined response that don't exist in my individual speaker responses - but I have been able to address those using allpass filters, thereby making the L+R combined response match the individual response shape almost perfectly - completely removing the phase-related "dips" that were originally there. I've had _excellent_ results using this tuning method. 



Speaking of tuning method, I'm constantly experimenting and trying new ways of tuning my system - I've tried using GEQ only, PEQ only and mostly-GEQ with a a few PEQ bands where needed. I was never completely happy with my ability to adjust the tonality of the system by ear afterwards though. Eventually, I came up with the following tuning method, which has worked out perfectly for me:


```
1. Set levels and time alignment.

2. Take "full range" (no crossovers unless needed for driver safety) pink noise measurements of each individual speaker using the moving MIC method.

3. EQ each individual speaker to your target curve and each other using PEQ bands (REWs "Predicted" feature is AWESOME for this - especially the "Predicted SPL" tab in the "Overlays" window, which lets you see multiple predicted speaker responses at the same time). Keep the number of bands used to about 15 max (you'll see why below in step 9).

4. Take new pink noise measurements using the moving MIC method, including each speaker individually, each L+R "pair" of speakers, "whole side" and "whole Front" measurements. Make sure to use the same head-unit volume for all measurements.

5. Check to make sure that left and right speaker measurements match and that there are no obvious phase-related issues visible in the L+R combined responses (typically, significant phase issues will show up as big dips that reach down to the individual speaker dB level). The summed measurements should match the individual speaker measurements, just at higher dB levels. Crossover regions should also sum properly in the "whole side" measurements. 

6. If you do have any obvious phase-related issues in any of the multiple-speaker measurements, try using allpass filters to correct them.

7. Take new measurements to confirm any EQ and/or allpass filter adjustments.

8. Rinse and repeat steps 4-7 until you are happy with all of the responses and everything is summing properly.

9. My latest thing is to then define a 5-7 band "embedded" graphical EQ on each channel using some of the unused EQ bands. I'll spread the bands evenly throughtout the range the speaker is playing and use low Q values (usually between 1.2 and 2) for each band. This allows me to link channels and adjust the overall "tonality" of the tune quickly and easily by ear, without disturbing the left and right matching EQ.
```

The results have been excellent using this method. I always struggled when it came time to adjust for tonality by ear. Pure PEQ was too hard to modify while keeping left and right in-sync. Pure GEQ didn't work out because the bands wouldn't be "wide" enough and any adjustments would leave peaks and valleys instead of adjusting the curve "smoothly". My latest method of defining a small 5-7 band GEQ within each channel seems to be the perfect solution.

Sorry for such a long "wall of text" post.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

jtrosky said:


> This is a long one, but....
> 
> I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly. When you talk about tuning left and right "together", you are not tuning the individual speakers AT ALL by themselves - only tuning them as L+R pairs? At least with my car, there can be up to a 10dB difference between the left and right individual speaker responses at certain parts of the frequency range (at the listening position) - in both my midbass and my dash speakers. If I'm understanding you, I don't see how you could possibly get a good center image tuning that way? When all is said and done, I'd stil have an up to 10dB difference between left and right - in some critical areas of the response...
> 
> ...


This is something I plan to experiment with once my most recent fabrication task is complete. 

Think of it this way. If you combine left & right signals and this results in boost or dip at certain frequencies. Are you actually correcting phase issues by boosting or cutting EQ on one side to make the combined response flat? EQ affects amplitude and phase right?

I plan to compare excess group delay before and after to study the result.

Ge0


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Ge0 said:


> This is something I plan to experiment with once my most recent fabrication task is complete.
> 
> Think of it this way. If you combine left & right signals and this results in boost or dip at certain frequencies. Are you actually correcting phase issues by boosting or cutting EQ on one side to make the combined response flat? EQ affects amplitude and phase right?
> 
> ...


Well, in my mind, matching the left and right response is primarily to get a proper center image - not just to get the phase to match. From my understanding, it does also (for the most part) align phase as well - not perfectly though (@SkizeR is always quick to mention that the car _mostly_ behaves like a minimum phase environment even thought it isn't completely). Plus, I'm assuming that reflections in the car can also cause some additional phase issues at the listening position that the EQ alone won't fix. I'm thinking that this is why the phase-related dips can occur when playing L+R combined, even though the individual L and R channels are EQ'd to the same response. At least in my case, I can completely remove the dips and also get near-perfect summing at the crossovers, which is good enough for me. My system has never sounded (or measured) better since I've introduced allpass filters into the mix.

Something else that I recently experimented with and found to work out well is actually overlapping my door midbass and dash wideband speakers a little. After I had the system fully tuned, I simple extended the LP filter of the midbass by 100hz and the HP filter of the dash speakers by 100hz. I feel that it helps them "mesh" better. Really enjoying the results so far. I did do a tiny bit more of EQ "fine tuning" on the crossover slopes after extending them, but it really didn't need much work. 

To me, without something like Smaart to accurately measure the phase response, the best you can do with phase is to make sure that the combined L+R response matches the individual response - and make sure you're getting good summation at the crossovers. I just can't imagine that having up to a 10dB difference between left and right channels can result in anything good (in regards to only tuning left+right together).

Will be interested in hearing your results though.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

jtrosky said:


> Well, in my mind, matching the left and right response is primarily to get a proper center image - not just to get the phase to match. From my understanding, it does also (for the most part) align phase as well - not perfectly though (@SkizeR is always quick to mention that the car _mostly_ behaves like a minimum phase environment even thought it isn't completely). Plus, I'm assuming that reflections in the car can also cause some additional phase issues at the listening position that the EQ alone won't fix. I'm thinking that this is why the phase-related dips can occur when playing L+R combined, even though the individual L and R channels are EQ'd to the same response. At least in my case, I can completely remove the dips and also get near-perfect summing at the crossovers, which is good enough for me. My system has never sounded (or measured) better since I've introduced allpass filters into the mix.
> 
> Something else that I recently experimented with and found to work out well is actually overlapping my door midbass and dash wideband speakers a little. After I had the system fully tuned, I simple extended the LP filter of the midbass by 100hz and the HP filter of the dash speakers by 100hz. I feel that it helps them "mesh" better. Really enjoying the results so far. I did do a tiny bit more of EQ "fine tuning" on the crossover slopes after extending them, but it really didn't need much work.
> 
> ...


I think I was not clear enough on my last comment. I was saying that MAYBE matching left and right with separate EQ curves is a good thing. That is if keeping a flat excess group delay line flat is a good thing and assuring minimum phase is a good thing. Go back and re-read my earlier post where I display my excess group delay plot. It was flat for the most part. I got there by EQ'ing left and right separately.

Ge0


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

phocas said:


> I did tie the signal and power ground together directly then made sure the switch was to the position it specified for that, 7am here still drinking coffee.
> I will be troubleshooting today, I just made the change last night so I am going to retrace my steps and make sure all is updated and everything is good. Like I said, 0 noise with coax, so I believe its something i overlooked or made a mistake with.


Ok i think my manual says it's best to not tie the signal and power ground together unless you have to


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Here's the manual


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## phocas (Jul 29, 2019)

Sam Spade said:


> Ok i think my manual says it's best to not tie the signal and power ground together unless you have to


I didn't leave it like that, i just tested to see if it got rid of it.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

4.72a (beta) was just released on 9/21. About to install it now.



ATM - This software version contains the first official release of our proprietary "Automatic Time Measurement" function. Since the first beta test version, the ATM has been continiously improved and enhanced to ensure its operability on most of all applications. The ATM offers now the option to select different input sources (e.g. Digital Input or Extension Card input) for non-VCP devices to enable a measurement through all possible inputs of the DSP. In addition a result page has been added after the measurement process which allows the comparison of the time alignment adjustment 'before' and 'after' the ATM process. The result page will also offer detailed guidance and assistance if a measurement failed. The whole menu has also be updated by several explanations and the ATM function can now be directly started in the Time window
DCM - A new function called "Device Monitor" has been added. The device monitor is available for all ACO platform enabled products and shows live temperature data within an adjustable time frame as a graph and min/max values. For some specific DSP amplifiers (needs to be equipped with a "Regulated Power Supply" & the "ACO platform" - currently HELIX V EIGHT DSP, HELIX V TWELVE DSP, MATCH M 5DSP MK2) an input voltage monitor is also available which allows to check the stability of the input voltage especially during operation.
DCM - Remote control functions have been renamed for some devices to have the same naming on all functions through all different DSP products
DCM / Signal management - A bug in the global main signal detection has been fixed as this funciton could not be activated in some cases
RTA - Several minor issues have been fixed
DIRECTOR - In combination with non-ACO platform enabled products, the sound setup selection window could have caused an issue where the sound setup list was not displayed correctly. All issues reletaed to the sound setup selection have been fixed
MATCH M 5DSP MK2 - fixed a bug where the link function of the InputEQ was not working correctly in some cases
General - Arrow key control through the keyboard in combination with 0.1 dB steps for the EQ resolution has been optimized
Several minor bug fixes


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

Automatic Time correction sounds awesome, has to be better than the old measuring tape extended 40" from one end of the car to the other and guessing where the voice coil is.

This post had me re-reading and jtrosky your comments on all phase filters. I'm wondering if these phase issues can also be addressed using the phase sliders in Helix ? I've never really totally understood the difference between those and time delay. When I first asked about them Skizer basically told me to ignore them, ha ha good advice I"m sure. 

Too lengthy for me to recap here, but do a search on SMAART and look for a thread where DumDum and I were talking about it. He goes into good depth on it, showing how on the phase trace screen of SMAART time delay affects the slope of two lines being compared, but phase affects the origin point. He describes how if the origin point of the B trace (ie right speaker) being compared to the A trace (ie the left speaker), if the angles of the lines dont match, you need to adjust time delay, but if the lines start at different places you need to adjust the phase. Mind blown.

Again I have a 30 year old EE degree and I wasn't the best EE student ever, but I should understand phase right ? Even so we get into the audio world and people say a lot of things about phase that doesn't mesh with what I understand, leaving me feeling like I don't really understand it all (basically to me phase is just where the waveform is in time relative to another waveform, so you would thinkt that was just time delay, btu then we wouldn't have different adjustment sin helix would we ?)


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

preston said:


> Automatic Time correction sounds awesome, has to be better than the old measuring tape extended 40" from one end of the car to the other and guessing where the voice coil is.
> 
> This post had me re-reading and jtrosky your comments on all phase filters. I'm wondering if these phase issues can also be addressed using the phase sliders in Helix ? I've never really totally understood the difference between those and time delay. When I first asked about them Skizer basically told me to ignore them, ha ha good advice I"m sure.
> 
> ...


I should amend this, I was incorrect how I was viewing the phase adjustment, time alignment does adjust the slope with it anchored at the 0hz line, and the phase button flips the entire line up or down, so everything moves by 180 if you flip it equally, the phase adjustment is actually an all pass filter which is set according to frequency of the crossover at the high pass of the driver in question, it then adjusts the frequency and Q of the allpass to adjust the rotation of the crossover points phase by the specified amount of degrees you need the phase moved by at the crossover point

I was incorrectly thinking it would move the entire line up or down by x amount in a similar way to flipping the phase from 0 to 180, I’m never too old to admit when I fluffed it... and on that one assumption made an ass out of just me alone 😂


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## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

*DSP PC-Tool Version 4.75a *has been released*.*


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> *DSP PC-Tool Version 4.75a *has been released*.*


its been released since 8 March 2021. They post their release date as day/month/year. Not Month/Day/Year.


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## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

tjk_bail said:


> its been released since 8 March 2021. They post their release date as day/month/year. Not Month/Day/Year.


Understood. Last version posted here was 4.72a. Just more information.


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## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

*DSP PC-Tool Version 4.77a* Beta-Released! 

Downloads

IO - New output channel names have been added i.e. Surround L Full, Surround R Full, Front Subwoofer L (will not be Sub-Remote controlled), Front Subwoofer R (will not be Sub-Remote controlled), etc. 

Thank You!


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Looks like they leaked info on a upcoming amp that hasn't been released yet officially  


*HELIX M SIX DSP*, MATCH M 5.4DSP and UP 10DSP have been implemented


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

haakono said:


> Looks like they leaked info on a upcoming amp that hasn't been released yet officially
> 
> 
> *HELIX M SIX DSP*, MATCH M 5.4DSP and UP 10DSP have been implemented


Msix dsp has been a thing for a while 🙈


----------



## toneloc2 (Nov 29, 2015)

anybody have issues with this update? loading saved tunes
seams like there is a new pop up window when starting up... also had issues with director


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## NotSure (Jul 10, 2021)

No issues loading saved tunes but I couldn't load my mic cal file through the software. Had to do it the old fashioned way, editing the cal file. 

My house curve also didn't display after I loaded it in. I had to toggle the modes for it to appear.


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

dumdum said:


> Msix dsp has been a thing for a while 🙈


You're probably thinking of P SIX.

M SIX DSP is like the M FOUR DSP + 2 more amplified channels. 10 Channels of DSP w/ACO.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

JVD240 said:


> You're probably thinking of P SIX.
> 
> M SIX DSP is like the M FOUR DSP + 2 more amplified channels. 10 Channels of DSP w/ACO.


Nope, an m6dsp has been coming for ages… just dropped the m4 dsp earlier 👍🏼 Perhaps I have more insider knowledge and it wasn’t public? Not sure, but I knew it was “in the post” a while back when the m4dsp arrived


----------



## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Also more M series amps in the works, but I do think my statement holds true for the time being  



haakono said:


> Looks like they leaked info on a upcoming amp that* hasn't been released yet officially*


----------



## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

Is my Helix V Twelve running too hot or is this normal? Using 9 channels plus sub pre out.

It was 89 outside. AMP went to up 147F max after long drive.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

Thats a great question. I have no way to determine the temp of my Amps.... so I don't know how hot they get. 

Your Amp is receiving 15.2 volts, maybe that has something to do with the high temps..... I thought 14.1 volts was best...


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## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

tjk_bail said:


> Thats a great question. I have no way to determine the temp of my Amps.... so I don't know how hot they get.
> 
> Your Amp is receiving 15.2 volts, maybe that has something to do with the high temps..... I thought 14.1 volts was best...


The voltage is fine. That's straight from the battery while driving. I am sure the Helix V Twelve can handle it. 

Trying to debug my start/stop 1 second audio drop issues. Things are pointing to the battery or start/stop battery control module. I can see the voltage levels when i stop and start and also mins. 

As for the temps, at least if i get hungry I crank up the volume and make steak and eggs.


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## SiW80 (Mar 13, 2019)

I just tried the new version and the wifi controller is greyed out. 

Does anyone else have this issue?

The green light on the controller is slowly flashing and the red light is off. 

Cheers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> As for the temps, at least if i get hungry I crank up the volume and make steak and eggs.



Haha... LOL... I gotta a kick out that statement....Hopefully ya got enough room an the Amps to throw on some hash-browns......


----------



## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

*DSP PC-Tool Version 4.78a* Beta-Released! 

Release Notes:

HELIX DSP.3S and HELIX DSP MINI MK2 have been implemented.
RTA – The minimum height of the RTA window has been reduced.
RTA – Issues with the microphone calibration file and refrence curve file load function have been fixed.
HELIX DSP.3S and DSP MINI MK2 – A new ACO feature called "Advanced Noise Suppression" has been added to the ADEP.3 Class SB compatibility mode to eliminate potential power off noises.
MATCH M 5.4DSP – The maximum adjustable output time delay has been increased to 20.8 ms per channel.
CONDUCTOR – A new firmware is availabe and will be installed through the DSP PC-Tool software. The new software allows to switch between two digital signal inputs (if the DSP is equipped with optical & coaxial digital inputs) by pushing the control knob while the digital signal source is selected in the input signal selection menu. In addition the setup switch menu now always indicates the loaded setup correctly even if the sound setup has been changed through the DSP PC-Tool while connected to a PC.
Several minor text and label adjustments.
Several minor bug fixes.
_*Please note: An ACO firmware update is required for this DSP PC-Tool update and will be started after connecting to the DSP. Make sure to save all Sound Setups in advance on your hard disk. All DSP adjustments and configurations will be reset during the update process and need to be reloaded after the update. The ACO Update can only performed through the on-board USB port of the ACO-based DSP.*_


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

What is this feature and what screen is it on? I have the newest firmware and I have yet to even see this on any screen or tab in the software. It is non existent.


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## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

Selkec said:


> What is this feature and what screen is it on? I have the newest firmware and I have yet to even see this on any screen or tab in the software. It is non existent.
> View attachment 314247


Napoleon, See below.


----------



## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

That is not on my screen with any of the software versions since it’s been released. Maybe it’s not for dsp.3?


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Selkec said:


> That is not on my screen with any of the software versions since it’s been released. Maybe it’s not for dsp.3?


Gains are not set via software with the dsp3. It has a physical gain.


----------



## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)




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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

It says it’s for devices with software controlled gain adjustment…. So what is these devices. The helix has software based as do probably all their dsp


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## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

Selkec said:


> That is not on my screen with any of the software versions since it’s been released. Maybe it’s not for dsp.3?


I chose "V Twelve DSP" when I started the DSP software in *demo* mode.

Is your device "_equipped with a software-controlled gain adjustment under the "Main Input" section_" ?


----------



## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

DaveG said:


> Gains are not set via software with the dsp3. It has a physical gain.


The struggle is real.


----------



## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)




----------



## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

@dobslob 

ATF switched to AKM chips and then the AKM factory burnt down, plus the addition of pandemic supply chain issues.

Will they need to convert all AMP/DSPs to ESS chips??


----------



## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> The struggle is real.


the dsp.3 does not have a physical gain adjustment. (Well it has a input sensitivity dial) I suppose that is…

but it also has input gain adjustment in the software for digital and analog. The sensitivity dial on the helix dsp.3 is for analog only and does not affect the optical inputs.


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## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

*DSP PC-Tool Version **4.80b* Released! 

Downloads 

*HELIX V TWELVE DSP* MK2 is born! Back to BURR BROWN chips.


----------



## santirx (Oct 7, 2020)

New DSP PC-Tool 5.0 released with a bunch of new tools. 


*TuneEQ*
One of the major new things in DSP PC-Tool 5 is our new proprietary TuneEQ function. This integrated automatic tuning mode provides a new way to automatically adjust your virtual or output equalizers. It utilizes a single spatial averaged measurement with at least 1/6 octave resolution to simulate and evaluate the best possible parameter set for your equalizer to achieve a specific frequency response target. The target itself can be freely designed as a Reference Curve.
TuneEQ is an extremely flexible but simple to use function which will use any given number of equalizer bands to perform a frequency response correction by utilizing the full possibilities of parametric equalizer bands. It will use the full function set of the parametric equalizer including the center frequency, Q-factor and gain adjustment.
One of the major design aspects of this function was to make its usability as simple as possible while the complex processes are done automatically in the background.
To use this function a single spatial averaged measurement is necessary per channel or channel group. This measurement can be done with any linear measurement microphone as the TuneEQ function does not have any special hardware requirements.

*Wireless DSP tuning via Bluetooth*
DSP PC-Tool 5 offers a new connection method which allows the wireless tuning of the DSP through a Bluetooth connection. To use this new connection method, it is necessary to install a BT HD module in the HEC slot of the DSP. To set up the connection the computers Bluetooth interface needs to be paired with the BT HD module. After this you can select the newconnection mode in the specific menu of the application launcher.

*Multi-Device Connect*
This software update also offers the option to set up several sessions of the DSP PC-Tool software simultaneously. The option allows to tune several connected devices at the same time by launching the software multiple times. As soon as more than one connected device is identified a new menu will appear which allows to select the specific devices independently if USB, Bluetooth or Wifi is used.
In the following you find a full list of all changes which have been made in DSP PC-Tool 5:

The DSP PC-Tool 5 is only compatible to ACO devices
The DIRECTOR will require a firmware update to version 3.0. After this update the USB port of the DIRECTOR is not supported any more for DSP tuning
The WIFI CONTROL will require a firmware update to version 1.09
Multi-Device Connect has been implemented. This feature allows to connect to several DSPs simultaneously via USB, Bluetooth or Wifi.
 
*Launcher*

New design with improved usability
New connection method - Bluetooth (requires a “BT HD” extension card)
Demo Extension Card function - This function allows to start the “Demo Mode” with any of our extension cards loaded into the demo session
The software version handling has been further optimized
Outputs (formerly Main)
The size scaling of all elements has been optimized
Linked subwoofer channels will not automatically synchronize their time alignment values any more when the polarity or phase slider is used
The memory setup menu is now indicated by an additional gear wheel symbol beside the file name section
 
*DCM (Device Configuration)*

Remote Control – CONDUCTOR
The CONDUCTOR automatically gets a new firmware update which introduces the “Tone Control” function on the CONDUCTOR. The Tone Control can now be activated in the CONDUCTOR configuration and will then be a new option in the menu structure. When activated the frequency for the low shelf and high shelf filter can be set up in the configuration window. The CONDUCTOR itself will only control the gain of this control (+/- 6 dB). The low shelf filter will be colored in purple, and the high shelf filter will be colored in yellow. While in the Tone Control menu on the CONDUCTOR a long press on the button toggles between both filter options.
PC-Tool Configuration
A new option called “RTA window mode” has been added which allows to change the implementation of the RTA window. The option “windowed” will open the RTA as a separate window. When “embedded” is selected it becomes an integrated function in the “Outputs” screen. The embedded mode can be quite handy on small screens. In this mode the channel selection and the equalizer configuration can be directly accessed.
Source Volume Control
This option has been removed and is now always activated. The adjustment boxes in the IO menu have been relocated to the top right menu in the IO screen.
 
*FX*

The “Front Processing” tab including its configuration options has been removed. This was necessary to free up some processing power for new features we are working on!
Due to this “StageXpander”, “ClarityXpander” for the front channels as well as the “StageEQ” will no longer be available in any unit (only when using DSP PC-Tool V4.80 or lower)
 
*IO*

The source volume control has been repositioned to better visualize that the source volume control is applied to the whole routing matrix (Main, HEC/AUX or Digital) and not to the specific input groups where it was aligned in the software (beside the words “Analog”, “HEC/AUX” and “Digital”). It is now located in the upper right area in the same box which indicates the activation method and adjustment for the selected routing matrix.
 
*TIME*

ATM has been slightly optimized and some minor bugs have been fixed
 
*RTA*

TuneEQ has been implemented as a new automatic tuning mode
TuneEQ is a new tuning mode beside “SetEQ” and “AutoSet” and uses a different approach than before. While the first two options were iterative measurement options which you had to perform several times in a row to achieve a great result, TuneEQ is a one-shot approach which achieves a great result just after a single measurement.
TuneEQ is using a completely new approach by utilizing a spatial averaged single measurement in a higher resolution of 1/6 octave and performing all the necessary iterations in a highly complex simulation in the background. So instead of doing iterative measurements the TuneEQ algorithm is performing millions of real filter simulations in the background which will be applied to the real measurement data until it finds the best parameter set. This parameter set includes an adjustable number of fully parametric EQ bands, with each band automatically adjusted in frequency, Q-factor and gain. Depending on the preferences TuneEQ can utilize only a few EQ bands or up to 30 bands per channel to maximize the possible result.
The TuneEQ function still works with any measurement microphone and does not require any new hardware. It is also designed extremely versatile so that it is available from the beginning in all available and upcoming ACO devices.
TuneEQ only involves a very few adjustment options:
The maximum targeted deviation (default 0.1 dB) can be configured
The maximum overall boost (default + 6 dB) can be configured
You can configure how many EQ bands of a specific channel should be used by the TuneEQ mode (default is band no. 3 to band no. 29 as the low- and high shelf filters are allocated to the first and last band of each equalizer and the Tone Control functions of the remote controls allocate band no. 2 when activated)
You can adjust the frequency range where the TuneEQ should be utilized

Another two new options in the RTA settings are the following:
RTA graph settings - “Adjust Frequency limits to selected channel Filters”.
This option will automatically set the frequency range selection for the automatic tuning modes based on the adjusted high- and low pass filter of the selected channel i.e. If you have a band-passed midrange driver with a highpass filter of 300 Hz and a lowpass filter of 5 kHz, the frequency range will automatically be set to be within this range. No manual adjustments are necessary.
Reference Curve Settings - "Adapt refence Curve to selected channel filters".
This option will automatically calculate the adjusted high- and low pass filter of a selected channel into the reference curve. This option allows to utilize equalizer bands in combination with the TuneEQ function to shape the acoustical slopes of the adjusted high- and low pass filters.
The frequency range adjustments for the automatic tuning modes allow now to directly enter your own frequency values on a 1 Hz precision (instead of the 1/3 octave selection from the drop-down menu)


----------



## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

santirx said:


> New DSP PC-Tool 5.0 released with a bunch of new tools.
> 
> 
> *TuneEQ*
> ...


Yikes! There goes a weekend of playing around.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

So I heard a car that had the helix auto tune yesterday ….. holy smokes it sounded excellent. 

His car actually won 1st place and had blam and helix stuff…

I’ve got to say…. Pretty dam impressed…..


----------



## yt310 (9 mo ago)

Anyone else running into "msvcp140.dll not found" errors in Windows when trying to run the new V5 software?


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## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

yt310 said:


> Anyone else running into "msvcp140.dll not found" errors in Windows when trying to run the new V5 software?


No, i figured i'd wait a day before trying. Plus my "repaired" helix branded nav-tv zen-m doesn't arrive until next week.


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## santirx (Oct 7, 2020)

No issues here. Do you have compatible windows software version? 

Just tried the TuneEQ function and it does a great job at assisting the tuning.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

oabeieo said:


> So I heard a car that had the helix auto tune yesterday ….. holy smokes it sounded excellent.
> 
> His car actually won 1st place and had blam and helix stuff…
> 
> I’ve got to say…. Pretty dam impressed…..


Whos/what car?


----------



## yt310 (9 mo ago)

santirx said:


> No issues here. Do you have compatible windows software version?
> 
> Just tried the TuneEQ function and it does a great job at assisting the tuning.


Yes, the fix for the issue is to download and install both of the Microsoft Visual C++ X86 and X64 redistributables here. Latest supported Visual C++ Redistributable downloads


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## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

santirx said:


> No issues here. Do you have compatible windows software version?
> 
> Just tried the TuneEQ function and it does a great job at assisting the tuning.


I have to admit for my Mercedes w205 all i did was manual time alignment, slope, plus min/max frequency and everything sounds great. No EQ yet.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> Whos/what car?


Aaron Iwane 
Lexus gs470
Helix ultra 

Absolutely amazing car…. I couldn’t believe how good it sounded 

He does a lot with k fest and one hell of a fabricator like you. He’s in the industry, knows ppl etc etc


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

oabeieo said:


> Aaron Iwane
> Lexus gs470
> Helix ultra
> 
> ...


Oh I know Aaron. Great guy.


----------



## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)




----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> View attachment 336078



I’m not familiar with this update , but I am familiar with pc…. I’m going to take a guess 

I would uninstall, disable any antivirus, and full reinstall…


Antivirus is notorious for deleting dll files because it thinks it’s corrupt…..


You might have to find a copy of that exact direct link library in and download one and put it in the correct path… Windows can regenerate new ones but sometimes it can’t…


In college I took some computer science classes, one thing I learned was antivirus is what one big thing that slows down your pc… unless you look at malicious websites (especially pornography and such) there’s really no reason to use antivirus….

The problem is when you get a Windows update but the antivirus is old…. And it starts deleting things because it’s new…. And stuff stops working and goes slow…. 

I would uninstall your antivirus and go for a clean windows install, with no antivirus… (if it were me)


----------



## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

oabeieo said:


> I’m not familiar with this update , but I am familiar with pc…. I’m going to take a guess
> 
> I would uninstall, disable any antivirus, and full reinstall…
> 
> ...


All the other versions installed and worked fine. I will try a Windows 10 pc. They must've ended Windows 7 support. *Sigh


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## santirx (Oct 7, 2020)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> All the other versions installed and worked fine. I will try a Windows 10 pc. They must've ended Windows 7 support. *Sigh


it should work on Windows 7…


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> All the other versions installed and worked fine. I will try a Windows 10 pc. They must've ended Windows 7 support. *Sigh


oh snap…..yeah maybe

Send them the crash log and I bet they can make a work around if it says it supports the old..

I had a win7 notebook a while ago and minidsp made custom FW for me (in like an hour). Made me feel special and fuzzy. Lol

Maybe they will do the same, for sure it will help them w bug fix


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## santirx (Oct 7, 2020)

I just did a channel by channel tuning using TuneEQ, and I have to say… in a full year with my Helix and multiple tuning iterations, it has never been as good as it is right now. Pure and very balanced sound.

TuneEQ really works (I’m sold on it) and very easy to do (45 minutes for 14 channels).


----------



## leonjacky (Jun 8, 2015)

The wifi control cannot use after updated to 5.0......anyone has the same problem?


----------



## tjhub3 (9 mo ago)

yt310 said:


> Anyone else running into "msvcp140.dll not found" errors in Windows when trying to run the new V5 software?


Almost any time you see an msvcpxxx.dll missing, it means you don't have the MSVC redistributable from Microsoft installed. It can be downloaded @ https://aka.ms/vs/17/release/vc_redist.x64.exe

Unless you have a 32bit processor (extremely rare nowadays, have to have an old PC) then it can be downloaded @ https://aka.ms/vs/17/release/vc_redist.x86.exe
Or if you have an ARM64 processor (some Surface tablets/netbooks) @ https://aka.ms/vs/17/release/vc_redist.arm64.exe

_Edit: just saw this question was already answered a few posts down. Sorry for the double reply._


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## santirx (Oct 7, 2020)

leonjacky said:


> The wifi control cannot use after updated to 5.0......anyone has the same problem?


I believe you have to upgrade the firmware. You need to download firmware from TOOLS - WIFI CONTROL - DOWNLOAD page. See photo below… instructions on how to install are on the right. You install update using WIFI CONTROL App.


The WIFI CONTROL will require a firmware update to version 1.09


----------



## leonjacky (Jun 8, 2015)

santirx said:


> I believe you have to upgrade the firmware. You need to download firmware from TOOLS - WIFI CONTROL - DOWNLOAD page. See photo below… instructions on how to install are on the right. You install update using WIFI CONTROL App.
> 
> 
> The WIFI CONTROL will require a firmware update to version 1.09
> ...


 I updated the firmware of wifi control already.


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## MadeinBologna (Oct 6, 2021)

I did a quick tune this morning (< 10 min) and I have to say "Wow!" I can't wait to spend some dedicated time to do a proper tune using V5. It was so quick I initially thought I must have missed something or that the software went sideways on me. Nope! 

I do have one issue, however, and this was also happening on V4.x. It seems if I am connected to the DSP.3S longer than 10 minutes, it disconnects and I have to re-boot/re-power everything to get it to reconnect. If I just restart the software, it goes in to demo mode. Anyone else have this? It could be a USB wire/plug problem, but if others are experiencing it, maybe it's the software or Windows.


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## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

santirx said:


> it should work on Windows 7…
> 
> View attachment 336178



"it should work ..." 

There is a newer version out* DSP PC-Tool Version 5.00.04*

Works fine on Windows 10.


----------



## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

santirx said:


> I just did a channel by channel tuning using TuneEQ, and I have to say… in a full year with my Helix and multiple tuning iterations, it has never been as good as it is right now. Pure and very balanced sound.
> 
> TuneEQ really works (I’m sold on it) and very easy to do (45 minutes for 14 channels).


Why doesn't ATF ever post a how-to for new features? Where's the guide on this? 

Their tuning magazines are extremely old and based on extinct versions of the software. 









DSP PC-Tool







www.audiotec-fischer.de


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> Why doesn't ATF ever post a how-to for new features? Where's the guide?


I'm not sure why, but I could guess.. there is too much stuff and it's always changing. Professionals are their target market anyway, and professionals shouldn't need much explanation to be quite frank.


----------



## santirx (Oct 7, 2020)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> Why doesn't ATF ever post a how-to for new features? Where's the guide on this?
> 
> Their tuning magazines are extremely old and based on extinct versions of the software.
> 
> ...


The guidelines on the new features are in the help section of the software.


----------



## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> I'm not sure why, but I could guess.. there is too much stuff and it's always changing. Professionals are their target market anyway, and professionals shouldn't need much explanation to be quite frank.


That's like saying I don't need a Microsoft Office 360 user guide, because I have a degree in English. 

This is proprietary DSP software from a third party (a tool). Tools come with user guides and best practices. 

Just because you are an audio professional, doesn't mean you automatically know how every feature works or what every button does. Yes, you are better _at guessing _and may have contacts at ATF to call_,_ but you shouldn't have to. 

Plus, before you were a professional you had to learn to do everything correctly with the software. That's where the user guide comes in.

I would argue that ATF would attract a lot more customers if they provided updated documentation and how-to videos. 

Their knowledge base was a good start.


----------



## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

santirx said:


> The guidelines on the new features are in the help section of the software.


I will take a look, thanks.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> That's like saying I don't need a Microsoft Office 360 user guide, because I have a degree in English.
> 
> This is proprietary DSP software from a third party (a tool). Tools come with user guides and best practices.
> 
> ...


yeah , but you have no business with dsp if you don’t know what your doing …


----------



## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

oabeieo said:


> yeah , but you have no business with dsp if you don’t know what your doing …


Sure Buddy. This site is called Do It _yourself _(DIY) Mobile Audio.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> Sure Buddy. This site is called Do It _yourself _(DIY) Mobile Audio.


i didn’t mean it like that…. Come on man….

i was simply sayin, and it doesn’t matter if it’s diy which I fully support (like so so much)

the diy ppl know more then most shopszzzz and that’s a fact!

i was simply sayin, if someone doesn’t know the ins and outs of dsp, they shouldn’t be tuning….

Like ,if someone doesn’t know what eq does or what a crossover is ……

that was my point , if you know what stuff is , identifying the new features should be a no brainer…. And if you know what stuff does…. Why need a manual ? It’s just eq and crossovers and maybe a few sparkly gadgets.


----------



## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> That's like saying I don't need a Microsoft Office 360 user guide, because I have a degree in English.
> 
> This is proprietary DSP software from a third party (a tool). Tools come with user guides and best practices.
> 
> ...


I would argue that you overestimate the size (revenue) of the DIY market for companies like ATF.

More guides would certainly be nice and they'll probably come with time. I'll take the constant hardware/software improvements over guides but others may feel differently.


----------



## Aqua (Mar 23, 2021)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> View attachment 336078


The latest version works fine on my Win7 Pro laptop. Just download the “api-ms-win-core-winrt-l1-1-0.dll“ and the “api-ms-win-core-winrt-string-l1-1-0.dll” and install them on the right place and you will be good to go. Audiotech Fisher says that you cant use Win7 but it works just fine.


----------



## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

Aqua said:


> The latest version works fine on my Win7 Pro laptop. Just download the “api-ms-win-core-winrt-l1-1-0.dll“ and the “api-ms-win-core-winrt-string-l1-1-0.dll” and install them on the right place and you will be good to go. Audiotech Fisher says that you cant use Win7 but it works just fine.


Yeah, I was hesitant about downloading that file from random internet DLL sites. Maybe after I backup my PC. 

Do you have the MD5 hash for the original file? That way I can verify if its been tampered with. I am sure I can find it somewhere.


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## Aqua (Mar 23, 2021)

I am not worried about my old Toshiba laptop that I’m using. I just have the dsp pc-tool and a copy of VIDA installed on it. Normally I am more careful about what I am downloading. I have the downloaded files left on the computer but I am not sure what the MD5 hash is? That’s a little bit over my knowledge of computers.


----------



## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

Aqua said:


> I am not worried about my old Toshiba laptop that I’m using. I just have the dsp pc-tool and a copy of VIDA installed on it. Normally I am more careful about what I am downloading. I have the downloaded files left on the computer but I am not sure what the MD5 hash is? That’s a little bit over my knowledge of computers.


No worries.

After creating a file, the author can generate a md5 checksum and distribute it to a user.

if someone tampers with the file, the checksum changes and you will know it's not safe. You can run a check easily.


----------



## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Not sure if this is related; but when I go to login to my Wi-Fi control the Wi-Fi is secured and it's asking me for a key. I don't ever remember it asking me for that before. I am using a newer laptop with a Wi-Fi N card but I didn't think that would make a difference. Anyone ever see this before? It's been awhile since I've logged into my Helix and I haven't tried it with this new laptop until now but I never remember having to put in a network security key to get into the wi-fi.


----------



## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Frequentflyer said:


> Not sure if this is related; but when I go to login to my Wi-Fi control the Wi-Fi is secured and it's asking me for a key. I don't ever remember it asking me for that before. I am using a newer laptop with a Wi-Fi N card but I didn't think that would make a difference. Anyone ever see this before? It's been awhile since I've logged into my Helix and I haven't tried it with this new laptop until now but I never remember having to put in a network security key to get into the wi-fi.


Fixed it. I needed to do a hard reset on the Wifi module and set the SSID up again using the MyWIFICONTROL app. My bluetooth wasn't working either, but once I got into the DSP software, I was able to reconnect it. Weird... my left midbass hasn't been working either. Something funky is going on.


----------



## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

Frequentflyer said:


> Fixed it. I needed to do a hard reset on the Wifi module and set the SSID up again using the MyWIFICONTROL app. My bluetooth wasn't working either, but once I got into the DSP software, I was able to reconnect it. Weird... my left midbass hasn't been working either. Something funky is going on.


It always a good idea to do a full reset on the device after updating to major version of the firmware and/or software like a jump from 4 to 5.

I always start with a new blank setup and transfer all settings over manually. IO, Outputs,Time, etc.

(Don't use old config files with new major versions). 

I only use the import feature for EQs.


----------



## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> It always a good idea to do a full reset on the device after updating to major version of the firmware and/or software like a jump from 4 to 5.
> 
> I always start with a new blank setup and transfer all settings over manually. IO, Outputs,Time, etc.
> 
> ...


Do you press the "config" button for 5 seconds on the DSP/Amp?


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> It always a good idea to do a full reset on the device after updating to major version of the firmware and/or software like a jump from 4 to 5.
> 
> I always start with a new blank setup and transfer all settings over manually. IO, Outputs,Time, etc.
> 
> ...


There is no need to do this. The files transfer over fine.


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## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

Frequentflyer said:


> Do you press the "config" button for 5 seconds on the DSP/Amp?


When you conect via usb and start the software, click the cog wheels. There is a hard reset option. Turn the volume down to zero on source first (just in case) or disconnect outputs to speakers.


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## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> There is no need to do this. The files transfer over fine.


He said he is having issues. What would you suggest? I am not even sure what version he is running.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> He said he is having issues. What would you suggest? I am not even sure what version he is running.


You didn’t say he should do it because he’s having issues, you said every time you change software you should do it… you don’t need to is what nick is saying… specific advice vs blanket advice…


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## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

dumdum said:


> You didn’t say he should do it because he’s having issues, you said every time you change software you should do it… you don’t need to is what nick is saying… specific advice vs blanket advice…


Help vs no help. 

And if you are going to disssect every word I typed so you can criticize, get it right. I said "after updating to a major version like 4 to 5" not every update. 

What I said is standard troubleshooting method in any situation when a device has issues. I stand by it.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> Help vs no help.


After being here for 10+ years, the one thing I've learned for sure is that bad help can be more damaging to members than no help at all.


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## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> After being here for 10+ years, the one thing I've learned for sure is that bad help can be more damaging to members than no help at all.


How could a reset and fresh setup be bad in any device with reported issues? Software Engineer 30 years. We all have credentials.

Also, you guys always seem a bit touchy about being the only voices here.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> Help vs no help.
> 
> And if you are going to disssect every word I typed so you can criticize, get it right. I said "after updating to a major version like 4 to 5" not every update.
> 
> What I said is standard troubleshooting method in any situation when a device has issues. I stand by it.


At this point, I don't think it would hurt. I wouldn't mind going back to square one and doing a full tune on it again. It's been a while since I've F'd with it. I actually didn't notice my left midbass wasn't working until the other day. I have no idea when it started or if it's been like that since the last software revision. When I log into the DSP software it shows dB's on that channel while playing music. Not sure if that is showing input or output. I assume output. I have a 3-way setup with the mids/tweets in the dash, which tend to overbear my MB so it wasn't easy to notice. It could very well be a connection issue at the driver and not an amp issue. I will pull the door panel soon and investigate. I am running AudioFrog drivers with a P SIX Mk2.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Frequentflyer said:


> At this point, I don't think it would hurt. I wouldn't mind going back to square one and doing a full tune on it again. It's been a while since I've F'd with it. I actually didn't notice my left midbass wasn't working until the other day. I have no idea when it started or if it's been like that since the last software revision. When I log into the DSP software it shows dB's on that channel while playing music. Not sure if that is showing input or output. I assume output. I have a 3-way setup with the mids/tweets in the dash, which tend to overbear my MB so it wasn't easy to notice. It could very well be a connection issue at the driver and not an amp issue. I will pull the door panel soon and investigate. I am running AudioFrog drivers with a P SIX Mk2.


Well, after some troubleshooting, I narrowed my issue down to a bad driver. I guess I should start looking for a replacement GB60. I simple driver swap confirmed it is not the P Six. Looks like a lot of "WTB Single GB60" threads in the classifieds. Guess I'm not alone.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Frequentflyer said:


> Well, after some troubleshooting, I narrowed my issue down to a bad driver. I guess I should start looking for a replacement GB60. I simple driver swap confirmed it is not the P Six. Looks like a lot of "WTB Single GB60" threads in the classifieds. Guess I'm not alone.


You are not. We had to swap one the other day from an install done about 18 months ago. Whole thing was corroded on the inside.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> You are not. We had to swap one the other day from an install done about 18 months ago. Whole thing was corroded on the inside.


Mine does have a little corrosion on it, but nothing I'd think would effect operation of it. Of course, I can't see inside the voice coil without ripping it open.


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## DIYDSPGUY (Oct 14, 2020)

New *DSP PC-Tool Version 5.00.07* released









Download - DSP PC-Tool software from Audiotec Fischer


DSP PC-Tool Software from Audiotec Fischer | Equalizer | Time alignment | channel-assignment | real-time analyzer | multilingual




www.audiotec-fischer.de





If anyone is (still) using Windows 7 64 bit and getting this error :









I just downloaded and installed these two *32 bit files* (below) in *C:\Windows\SysWOW64\ *to fix.









*MD5: 32ed77ab9b6a59c25825fe521d549b72*





api-ms-win-core-winrt-l1-1-0.dll free download | DLL‑files.com


Download api-ms-win-core-winrt-l1-1-0.dll free! Fix DLL missing error. Solve it yourself or get help using DLL‑files.com Client to fix DLL error automatically.




www.dll-files.com





*MD5: 0ed28b807adb89aa37f9b3c057134f4a*





api-ms-win-core-path-l1-1-0.dll free download | DLL‑files.com


Download api-ms-win-core-path-l1-1-0.dll free! Fix DLL missing error. Solve it yourself or get help using DLL‑files.com Client to fix DLL error automatically.




www.dll-files.com





On a 64bit version of Windows, the default folder for 32bit ddl files is C:\Windows\SysWOW64\ and for 64bit dll files C:\Windows\System32\

MD5 can be verified by typing : _certutil -hashfile <filename> MD5_ in a command window.


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## Dremgragen (Jul 14, 2008)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> New *DSP PC-Tool Version 5.00.07* released
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll try this when I get home, I still haven't been able to update my older w7 laptop. I want to buy a nicer one but this helix is literally the only thing I use it for.

[Update] this worked for me! I had to download one more file besides these 2, but it worked after that. Thanks! 

Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk


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## Aqua (Mar 23, 2021)

DIYDSPGUY said:


> New *DSP PC-Tool Version 5.00.07* released
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I putted my two DLL files (one different than yours) in two separate catalogs on my old laptop. It works fine for me on a Win 7 Ulimate.

I have my files under both sysWOW64 and System32. Try copying them and put them under both those catalogs.

I can also find a copy of the winrt file in my Audiotech Fisher\ATF DSP catalog but I am actually not sure if it really needs to be there.


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## MME1122 (Dec 27, 2019)

I'm working on getting my V8Mk2 and wifi controller set up, I got everything up to date. I have firmware 1.09 for the wifi control and PC tool version 5.00.07

I can sometimes get it to connect via wifi but most of the time the PC tool software will crash. I have it set up in AP mode and the laptop connected to the wifi control. Accessing it through a web browser works fine, just the PC Tool will crash. When this happens I have to go to the netconf file and switch on to off to get the software to run.

I have a windows 10 laptop. Any ideas?

Edit: a bit more info
The wifi control will say "no aco device detected" in config mode but it detects the V8 in normal mode. I cannot select wifi control in the pc tool.


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## Hollywood (Dec 22, 2020)

MME1122 said:


> I'm working on getting my V8Mk2 and wifi controller set up, I got everything up to date. I have firmware 1.09 for the wifi control and PC tool version 5.00.07
> 
> I can sometimes get it to connect via wifi but most of the time the PC tool software will crash. I have it set up in AP mode and the laptop connected to the wifi control. Accessing it through a web browser works fine, just the PC Tool will crash. When this happens I have to go to the netconf file and switch on to off to get the software to run.
> 
> ...


My car and laptop are at the installer right now, but I had the crashing issue with 5.00.07. The installer has .04 or .05 (can't remember), but it worked fine. .07 seems like it does not like at least WiFi. I installed his version (still in his downloads) on my laptop and it worked fine.


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## MME1122 (Dec 27, 2019)

Would you happen to have the install file? They only have 5.00.07 and 4.x on the downloads page it seems like.


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## Hollywood (Dec 22, 2020)

MME1122 said:


> Would you happen to have the install file? They only have 5.00.07 and 4.x on the downloads page it seems like.


Like I said, my car and laptop are at the installers. I think he transferred his older version to a SD card and I installed it from that. It may be on one of the cards in my console? I might get my car back tomorrow afternoon. I'll look when I get the car back.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

MME1122 said:


> Would you happen to have the install file? They only have 5.00.07 and 4.x on the downloads page it seems like.


It just so happens that I have an older version (5.00.04) that I downloaded a while ago.

Here you go:
Setup_ATF_DSP_PC-TOOL_5-00-04.exe


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## MME1122 (Dec 27, 2019)

Great, thanks! I'll try it tonight.


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## MME1122 (Dec 27, 2019)

5.00.04 seems to be working much better. I had a bit of trouble at first but now that it's connected no more crashing, and the app works as well.


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## Topless Stang (Nov 30, 2009)

Anybody have v5.00.05? Thats the last one with RTA changes...


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## Topless Stang (Nov 30, 2009)

Discovered you can manually download any version...just fill in the version you want. I used this to get the version Zi wanted to test. Now going to grab them all just so J can store them locally in case they get removed in the future.
'https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/downloads/software/dsp-pc-tool/v5/Setup_ATF_DSP_PC-TOOL_5-00-05.exe'

This version also seems to work fine with WiFi and it also includes the most recent RTA tuning changes.


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## MME1122 (Dec 27, 2019)

This is great
I just downloaded x.05 and x.06, I'll try them out with the wifi adapter.


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## Topless Stang (Nov 30, 2009)

My WiFi module has worked since I installed it earlier this year. In fact it worked up until I connected with v5.00.05 of the PC-Tool and attempted to download/tweak my settings. Now in the PC-Tool the WiFi option is not selectable. Any one else have issues like this or have an issue not being able to select WiFi? I k ow it’s working because I can connect through WiFi with the PC-Tool app.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Just updated my DSP.3 from 4.8 to 5.0, but lost one setting in the process. 

How do I make the high level inputs ignore the conductor and play at 100% volume?


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