# Why does Hybrid Audio continue to dominate?



## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

I'm just looking for some honest replies as to why HAT continually dominates at sq competitions?

Is it the equipment?

I assume everyone at this level of competition is a top notch tuner and installer, so the speakers are the only variable I can think of.

People swear by other brands (Dynaudio, DLS, etc.), but Hybrid always seems to go home with most of the trophies.


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

It seems to be a combination of team support/help, dedication to their cars, tuning, and saturation (meaning many competitors are using Hybrid Audio)


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## Torquem (Jun 27, 2009)

They use mind control tweets


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

rain27 said:


> I'm just looking for some honest replies as to why HAT continually dominates at sq competitions?
> 
> Is it the equipment?
> 
> ...



They go home with the most trophies for the time being. It seems like fads to me, DLS was at one time the undisputed champ same with Dyn, I would be willing to bet it will change again, when I dont know


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

That stuff all seems to be cyclical - I've used some HAT product before and really liked it, so I don't doubt it sounds good. To me, it's more of what you do with it than the actual product.

If the JBL guys can win with factory speakers, that says something.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

It’s all politics. Everyone is trying to be ‘green’ conscious and all this talk of going ‘green’… well, Scott comes in and takes advantage of that and makes hybrid speakers. Last I heard he’s making drivers for all hybrid cars, too. I hear that guy is LU-HO-DE-HEAD (loaded). 

I will give it to him, though. The hybrid speakers put out considerably less emissions. I wish their speakers were more efficient, though, but you can’t be perfect. The one really good thing about them is that if for some reason you run out of wattage, they have fold out wind turbines that you hang out your window and generate power from the wind while driving which in turn powers them. As long as you go 50mph+ you’ll be able to overcome the road noise. Anything less than this and it’s a wash. I see people sitting at traffic lights blowing on the propellers to get tunes. Pretty cool stuff.
The guys at the comps will team up and blow on the propellers so that they can get really loud while being judged. It’s typical to see 6 dudes on hand for this. Only four are needed to get good volume. The other 2 guys are there for headroom only. 
People often say that hybrid audio guys blow. That’s why. Personally, I think Jorge and Jim suck, but that’s only because they’re trying to conserve power like a capacitor. 


metaphors, analogies for all!


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## ungo4 (Jun 5, 2009)

Hybrid makes a very good product but at that level its not really about what products you run. Most of the guys are really good at tuning cars but how the actual cars sound can still be significantly different. It really boils down a few factors.

Who is judging and how well they hear as well as how good at critical listening they are is one of the first. Also, Hybrid aligns themselves with competitors that have proven track records at building successful comp. cars most of the time. The political aspects of well know names can not be over looked. People that the judges know or know have won alot tend to get better scores many times, whether consciously or subconsciously in the judge's mind. The soundoff arena is like any other competition that can't be measured subjectively, those with more and better connections tend to be more successful. 

Also they very much have a team mentality in that they help design, build, and/or tune each others cars many times. People that work together toward a common goal tend to be more successful as a whole. 

The other big factor can not be overlooked is the fact that the competition scene is very down right now and there are really no big manufacturer teams striving for success like Hybrid is doing. If this was 10-15 years ago then there would be alot more manufacture sponsored teams and competitors in general making winning much harder. 

I'm not trying to take anything away from Hybrid Audio but this is how the game is played and they have the formula for winning figured out. The guys that want to win try to get on the best teams and that team is Hybrid right now. In past years it was MB Quart, JL Audio, Kicker, JBL and Focal. Another manufacturer will come along at some point to challenge Hybrid, but until then they will most likely continue to dominate.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

azngotskills said:


> It seems to be a combination of team support/help, dedication to their cars, tuning, and saturation (meaning many competitors are using Hybrid Audio)


Very insightful post and +1. I have heard several VERY impressive HAT equipped comp cars as of late. Good gear, good install, and good tuning is a 3 part combo that's hard to beat.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

Scott knows how to win and he'll go to great lengths to tune one of his competition cars.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

its funny, if you don't win, its because the speakers suck.....if you do win, its because of tuning


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

Scott speakers work very well for my car and reproduce what I believe is to be the correct sound for my ears. I also use Hybrid speaker in my home too, if that means anything.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

That's funny, When we were winning everything, no one asked, why does JBL dominate?


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> That's funny, When we were winning everything, no one asked, why does JBL dominate?


Because JBL has been atop the Pro Audio world as far back as I can remember and when you guys win it doesn't need to be questioned? Now that the compliment is out of the way, when are you going to start releasing some new raw drivers anyway punk? LOL!!


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

BigRed said:


> its funny, if you don't win, its because the speakers suck.....if you do win, its because of tuning


It is funny isn't it? 

Now, are you saying that winning and losing comes down to speakers, tuning, or if you win it's because of the speakers, and if you lose it's because of the tuning?

It's a double standard no matter how you look at it.

I'm of the opinion that the top competitors could win with many, many different speakers. They're not just slapping them into cars. 



> when are you going to start releasing some new raw drivers anyway punk?


I'd love to see JBL actually put some effort into this again. They have the resources to do it right, but I don't think the profit would be available to make it worthwhile.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Boostedrex said:


> Good gear, good install, and good tuning is a 3 part combo that's hard to beat.


i think that sums it up pretty well.

Best speakers imaginable? Of course not. But the HAT team has a level of skill, experience and ... perhaps most importantly ... _commitment_, that's hard for competitors to match or beat.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

MiniVanMan said:


> It is funny isn't it?
> 
> Now, are you saying that winning and losing comes down to speakers, tuning, or if you win it's because of the speakers, and if you lose it's because of the tuning?
> 
> ...


no, not saying any of the above. I've just heard people make gestures in the past about it, and I agree, its a double standard.

I will say this, the best speaker in the world can sound like ass if not properly executed in the installation.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

lycan said:


> i think that sums it up pretty well.
> 
> Best speakers imaginable? Of course not. But the HAT team has a level of skill, experience and ... perhaps most importantly ... _commitment_, that's hard for competitors to match or beat.


So why aren't those that do produce the "best speakers imaginable" proving their worth in the competition scene?

Is it like Mayweather refusing to fight Pacquiao in the ring?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

rain27 said:


> So why aren't those that do produce the "best speakers imaginable" proving their worth in the competition scene?


bigger fish to fry.


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## Maglite (Dec 28, 2009)

Boostedrex said:


> Very insightful post and +1. I have heard several VERY impressive HAT equipped comp cars as of late. Good gear, good install, and good tuning is a 3 part combo that's hard to beat.


Very true indeed.

Every speaker has a certain sound. Whether it be bright, laid back, airy....the list goes on.

HAT speakers seem to appeal to most people's ears, and especially the judges.

Anytime you have a manufacturer that supports its members/teams is a recipe for a loyal following and winning where it counts.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

rain27 said:


> So why aren't those that do produce the "best speakers imaginable" proving their worth in the competition scene?
> 
> Is it like Mayweather refusing to fight Pacquiao in the ring?


Also, because winning a sound competition doesn't always mean the car sounds the best, just scores the best. You can get you ass handed to you in sq, but get enought install points to win. Hell, you can score big in sound quality according to the rules but have a system that sounds like ass. There are also a lot of politics involved in winning sq events. I'm not taking anything away from Hybrid because these rules apply no matter which brand of speakers win.


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## dlechner (Aug 31, 2006)

lycan said:


> Best speakers imaginable? Of course not. But the HAT team has a level of skill, experience and ... perhaps most importantly ... _commitment_, that's hard for competitors to match or beat.


This is true! Me being an EX HAT team member will have to agree with Lycans post. Scott seems to attract people who have experience and the desire to win. I have insight and I have to say that these are some of the most dedicated people in car audio. They all do their homework and ask a lot of questions. 

I have heard many cars with HAT gear and although they all don't sound the same (for many different reasons) they all seem to have the same qualities.

These are all people that believe in what Scott does for this sport/hobby! I know that I will conitnue to back up Scott and his products.

Dave


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

These days, it appears that you win if you can manage to document the "upgrade" of every screw, piece of foam, baffle material, and whatever you're not too embarassed to call an upgrade. If you want to know who wins, look at the sound quality scores. All else is BS, I'm afraid. Maybe next year, we'll outfit all MS-8 competitors with some documentation that will secure an upgrade point for every line of DSP code. That ought to be about 10,000 points.


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## jimbno1 (Apr 14, 2008)

What is the HAT sound? Could you compare and contrast to some well know speakers such as Focal, Dynaudio, Scanspeak, Seas, DLS, etc?


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> These days, it appears that you win if you can manage to document the "upgrade" of every screw, piece of foam, baffle material, and whatever you're not too embarassed to call an upgrade. If you want to know who wins, look at the sound quality scores. All else is BS, I'm afraid. Maybe next year, we'll outfit all MS-8 competitors with some documentation that will secure an upgrade point for every line of DSP code. That ought to be about 10,000 points.


Andy : is Harman/JBL _committed_ to winning car audio competitions?


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Well, yes, in a manner of speaking. We have been for a long time. However, I have to make a business case for any outlandish requests. We're committed to winning, but not to developing a one-off product for a single competitor. All engineering exercises have an opportunity cost (as you know better than anyone) and if we have one guy work on a speaker design specifically for one person and for which there is no additional market, then the cost of his time isn't just the cost of his time. It's also the cost, in lost potential revenue, of whatever else he can't work on. 

For a company with no engineers and a small business, it's easy to provide an unqualified "yes, we're committed". Then, it's just money, food, free EXISTING speakers, etc. 

I'm willing to hear all proposals and so is Biggs, but not in a public forum. That's what PM is for. Bear in mind, however, that the benefit of cleaning up at IASCA isn't what it used to be and it isn't as difficult as it used to be either. 

Lycan, do you need a kryptonite speaker?


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well, yes, in a manner of speaking. We have been for a long time. However, I have to make a business case for any outlandish requests. We're committed to winning, but not to developing a one-off product for a single competitor. All engineering exercises have an opportunity cost (as you know better than anyone) and if we have one guy work on a speaker design specifically for one person and for which there is no additional market, then the cost of his time isn't just the cost of his time. It's also the cost, in lost potential revenue, of whatever else he can't work on.
> 
> For a company with no engineers and a small business, it's easy to provide an unqualified "yes, we're committed". Then, it's just money, food, free EXISTING speakers, etc.
> 
> ...


:snacks:


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

I've listened to 5+ cars with the HAT speakers in a comparison at competition day, and I can tell for sure they all sounded different (even ones with similar equipment). 

What really matters is that it is possible to build a hi-fi sounding car with HAT speakers. 

How you do it to compete and win is the actual question. And for that there is Team Hybrids with the answer in US scene.

Teamwork is the advantage in my opinion. Of course the equipment helps, a bad equipment don't take you that far.


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## David_Edwards (Nov 12, 2008)

I believe it is the commitment we put into our cars and knowing the true meaning of "Team". 

That and they are the best car audio speakers on the planet!! 



BTW I LOVE sound only comps....teehee


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## ungo4 (Jun 5, 2009)

David_Edwards said:


> BTW I LOVE sound only comps....teehee


I'm with you on that one, Dave! Sound only rules!

Tim


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## tintbox (Oct 25, 2008)

Rock n' Roll. My hybrid sound the best so far to me and I think that is what matters the most!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## jkrob21 (Mar 27, 2009)

Team Hybrids has some of the most experienced and highly motivated folks on the circuit. The product is rock solid and that doesn't hurt for sure.

If you don't like losing to install then you shouldn't enter such a class. There are plenty of places to play where install is not such a big deal. MECA and USACi have such classes. However if you choose to run with the big dogs then you had better bring it.


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## David_Edwards (Nov 12, 2008)

IASCA also has SQc classes as well.....

If you decide to enter a sound only class you had better have a top notch sound in your car....


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

David_Edwards said:


> s and knowing the true meaning of "Team".


A question that has been asked but never accurately answered......


Define team.


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## jkrob21 (Mar 27, 2009)

David_Edwards said:


> IASCA also has SQc classes as well.....
> 
> If you decide to enter a sound only class you had better have a top notch sound in your car....


Well then there ya go. Why all the fuss about screws and what not? Don't half ass it. Bring it don't sing it!

Hybrid dominates because the cars are entered in to the appropiate classes based on there sound and install. The team rallies around one another and makes sure that no gap in either is left unattended.

Great product, great cars, great people. That's why Hybrid dominates IMHO. But what do I know?


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

chad said:


> A question that has been asked but never accurately answered......
> 
> 
> Define team.


There's no "I" in it, that's for sure.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

A few brief notes:

We have won far more "sound quality only" competitions, than those with sound and installation added together.

Team Hybrids has never purposely sought-out "established" competitors to simply change from one name brand to another, to continue winning (which has been the formula of many teams in the past). Quite the contrary in fact. Four years ago, we didn't have any "name brand" competitors - just a bunch of guys with a passion to work together and the vision to achieve the results they desired in competition. Now, as a result, we are fortunate to have a lot of today’s “name brand” competitors…because they worked for their name branding. 

As for Andy's comment about Upgrades winning contests. That would only be applicable to IASCA, and only applicable to the expert class at the North American Championships, which I won three weeks ago. So Andy, say what you want to say. Be sure to check your facts though, because I received big fat zero's on “every screw, piece of foam, baffle material, and whatever you're not too embarrassed to call an upgrade”, and won the Upgrades some other way…I wonder what it could be? Since Andy’s the expert on my car – a car he’s never seen – or heard – or doesn’t understand – I eagerly await his critique.

Finally, Andy, I am honored that you would stop what you are doing at an Inc. 500 company and post two messages, within four hours of each other, during work hours, because you have such a great deal of interest in Hybrid Audio Technology's small engineering staff and small company size. Thanks!  <wink> 

Scott


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

David_Edwards said:


> That and they are the best car audio speakers on the planet!!


We will be the judge of that....no, actually we will...this Saturday (http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ge-comparison-shootout-dyn-scan-hat-more.html)...will the L4 rise above the competition or will it falter under the pressure....stay tuned...we will have 24 hours of Pre-Test coverage predicting the winner...lol!!!


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## ibanzil (Jun 29, 2008)

I hope to take a victory or two from team hybrid this year lol. My vote goes for hybrids success coming from obviously good speakers and a good network of talented members eager to help one another.


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## Maglite (Dec 28, 2009)

Niebur3 said:


> We will be the judge of that....no, actually we will...this Saturday (http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ge-comparison-shootout-dyn-scan-hat-more.html)...will the L4 rise above the competition or will it falter under the pressure....stay tuned...we will have 24 hours of Pre-Test coverage predicting the winner...lol!!!


Is Vegas giving odds on who will win


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## jkrob21 (Mar 27, 2009)

Maglite said:


> Is Vegas giving odds on who will win


LOL!


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## lucas569 (Apr 17, 2007)

this is going to turn into a ****fest rather quick i can tell. 

Ive heard HAT speakers (in 3 different cars) and wasn't that impressed but that's just one mans opinion. Don't get me wrong they sound good but not my taste was all.


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## lucas569 (Apr 17, 2007)

double post


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## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

I know I for sure look forward to trying some hybrid products someday


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## jkrob21 (Mar 27, 2009)

lucas569 said:


> this is going to turn into a ****fest rather quick i can tell.
> 
> Ive heard HAT speakers (in 3 different cars) and wasn't that impressed but that's just one mans opinion. Don't get me wrong they sound good but not my taste was all.


**** fest for sure. You boys have fun with it. I'm out!


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

someone pass the popcorn! the inevitable drama is here...


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

I hope not. First and foremost I replied to the OP. And secondarily, took a little extra time to defend my company, which I believe I have the right to do. If that feeds an inevitable **** fest, ya'll have fun with it.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

I've never heard Hybrid, but I have seen Scott in a video explaining his system to a judge and it is certainly not a lack of effort that is causing them to win. He sells his car harder than a used car salesman on tax return month...... to the point of sickening. I nearly had to turn the video off because of how much sh&t I was standing in halfway through, and it was all HONEST. He was precise, accurate, correct, and thorough...... doing what he needed to do to win the competition and if his team talks half as much as he does to judges then at least a large percentage of the winnings have to be to presentation. There are certainly not too many better at letting a judge know how a car was built and why. These are the people scoring.

I gotta laugh because he is doing everything right, but at some point it's like you wanna tell him to go away and let you look at it like shooing away a salesman at Sears. LOL! Good job though.


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

lucas569 said:


> this is going to turn into a ****fest rather quick i can tell.
> 
> Ive heard HAT speakers (in 3 different cars) and wasn't that impressed but that's just one mans opinion. Don't get me wrong they sound good but not my taste was all.


then what is your taste? IMHO hybrid has the best car audio speaker for the money. I do like Focal BE line but not at 3x the price.


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

right on cue, a post about that presentation video...predictable


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Scott Buwalda said:


> And secondarily, took a little extra time to defend my company, which I believe I have the right to do. If that feeds an inevitable **** fest, ya'll have fun with it.


Do you defend the members of your team..... ????


And I'm still waiting on that definition....... Of Team.....


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

audiogodz1 said:


> I've never heard Hybrid, but I have seen Scott in a video explaining his system to a judge and it is certainly not a lack of effort that is causing them to win. He sells his car harder than a used car salesman on tax return month...... to the point of sickening. I nearly had to turn the video off because of how much sh&t I was standing in halfway through, and it was all HONEST. He was precise, accurate, correct, and thorough...... doing what he needed to do to win the competition and if his team talks half as much as he does to judges then at least a large percentage of the winnings have to be to presentation. There are certainly not too many better at letting a judge know how a car was built and why. These are the people scoring.
> 
> I gotta laugh because he is doing everything right, but at some point it's like you wanna tell him to go away and let you look at it like shooing away a salesman at Sears. LOL! Good job though.


Find Your Inner Salesman - Competition Cars - Features - Car Audio ...


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

_I'm editing because I'm not going to argue in this thread._


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

audiogodz1 said:


> Excuse me? You better check your ass at the door. I have never been involved in any company discussion around here in any way, this is my first post in ANY thread involving a manufacturer and it is a simple observation.....MINE. Don't even consider talking to me like that.


justified carry on.. the vid is over the top IMHO.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Chad: Team Hybrids members have a lot of nobility and often don't need to be defended. But they are my brothers, and I will defend them if necessary.

A Team is exactly that...a group of individuals with one common vision and one common goal. The Team is the sum of its members.

Scott


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

_Editing because I am not going to argue in this thread._


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

audiogodz1 said:


> Excuse me? You better check your ass at the door. I have never been involved in any discussion around here in any way, this is my first post in ANY thread involving a manufacturer and it is a simple observation. Don't even consider talking to me like that.


Hahahahahaha....bwwaaaaaaahahahhaah

OK keyboard commando!

Your post was just what I said it was - predictable. Whenever anyone discusses Buwalda and his ability to win competitions, someone ALWAYS mentions the damn presentation video. Again, it's *predictable*. It's also right on cue because I predicted there would be some sort of drama and you start calling the guy a Sears salesman (or something similar to that point). 

Finally, if you had a modicum of common sense and a shred of reading comprehension, you would notice that I was making a comment ABOUT your post. I was never talking to you, my post was not antagonistic nor threatening; however, I can't say the same about yours.

Perhaps you should consider pumping the brakes on your e-toughness next time - I have no ill will toward you, but that may change if you continue to act like a Neanderthal.

Cheers :beerchug:


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

As for the video... has anyone ever asked ME what I thought of it? I thought I was too repetitive, even as per proven sales techniques of repetition of key phrases and words. I also said "uhm" and "ah" too many times. So I used that video, which is now six years old, to refine my presentation for the 2004 IASCA Finals - which I won amongst stiff competition. We all learn - we all learn every day. 

Scott


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

What is the OP's definition of dominate? 

2009 MECA World Finals results: Events

This opens in the SPL results. Click on the SQ tab to see the SQ results.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

rcurley55 said:


> Perhaps you should consider pumping the brakes on your e-toughness next time - I have no ill will toward you, but that may change if you continue to act like a Neanderthal.
> 
> Cheers


No christmas card? Oh god how will I survive.


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

audiogodz1 said:


> That's what I said, it's like going to a used car lot on tax return day. Hounding the judges with sales angles. It is however a good way to score points with the people judging you and it works apparently.
> 
> All that aside, telling me; who has never participated in any discussion of any manufacturer that I am part of some timed agenda is B. S and he can suck it....."justified".


You read between the lines too much. I never *told* you anything and never even insinuated that you were part of any *agenda*.

Please don't put words in my mouth...

Plus, we all know the cliche about arguing on the internet 

Have a good one


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Scott Buwalda said:


> Chad: Team Hybrids members have a lot of nobility and often don't need to be defended. But they are my brothers, and I will defend them if necessary.


This could get interesting.



Scott Buwalda said:


> A Team is exactly that...a group of individuals with one common vision and one common goal. The Team is the sum of its members.
> 
> Scott


That was worse than the definition I heard 3 years ago. Sounds like forum to me, a well moderated forum.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Scott Buwalda said:


> As for the video... has anyone ever asked ME what I thought of it? I thought I was to repetitive,................................... (snip)
> 
> 
> We all learn - we all learn every day.
> ...



I agree. I've looked back on classes and realized the dumbass I sounded like...... Par for the course


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

audiogodz1 said:


> No christmas card? Oh god how will I survive.


Well, that's one way to react


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

audiogodz1 said:


> That's what I said, it's like going to a used car lot on tax return day. Hounding the judges with sales angles. It is however a good way to score point with the people judging you.
> 
> All that aside, telling me, who has never participated in any discussion of any manufacturer that I am part of some timed agenda is B. S and he can suck it....."justified".


Wow, defensive much? lol...I've heard a couple vehicles with Hybrid Audio products and have had a set of L4's as well and I think he makes great speakers. Since when is a thorough explanation of an installation a bad thing? Maybe some of the other competitors should try talking more? I don't run Hybrid audio anymore because honestly I can't afford it but the team members seem like good guys that are willing to help (bigred has helped me in the past), the products sound good, and Scotts a great guy to deal with. The original question was answered by a few people in the beginning and then it just becomes a flame fest, which seems to happen pretty regularly when talking about Hybrid Audio. I honestly think some people just don't like to give credit where credit is due or really just enjoy going against the grain. Just my opinion.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

i ran a pair of L3s for about a year, 

VERY IMPRESSIVE.

id love a 5" version,

if anyone has a used set fo cheap holla @ me.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well, yes, in a manner of speaking. We have been for a long time. However, I have to make a business case for any outlandish requests. We're committed to winning, but not to developing a one-off product for a single competitor. All engineering exercises have an opportunity cost (as you know better than anyone) and if we have one guy work on a speaker design specifically for one person and for which there is no additional market, then the cost of his time isn't just the cost of his time. It's also the cost, in lost potential revenue, of whatever else he can't work on.
> 
> For a company with no engineers and a small business, it's easy to provide an unqualified "yes, we're committed". Then, it's just money, food, free EXISTING speakers, etc.
> 
> ...


kryptonite, titanium, gold ... just keep the silver away from me 

Wasn't intended to be challenging, honest. One of HAT's attributes is the team's commitment to _winning_ (and no, i'm not on HAT's, or anybody's, competition team) ... i personally think that's noteworthy, in response to the OP. And while we all recognize & respect Andy's commitment to car audio  I was honestly just curious about Harman's commitment to the competition scene. Innocent inquiry, that's all


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## David_Edwards (Nov 12, 2008)

There will always be people that can't stand to see anyone be a success....


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

still looking for that definition.....

What would team hybrid gain ME? forum post only no e-mail or PM.

i got the idea of looking to win thing.


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## David_Edwards (Nov 12, 2008)

Chad....it was posted before:

A Team is exactly that...a group of individuals with one common vision and one common goal. The Team is the sum of its members.


What else would it be??


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

facepalm


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

chad said:


> still looking for that definition.....
> 
> What would team hybrid gain ME? forum post only no e-mail or PM.
> 
> i got the idea of looking to win thing.


A championship just like in any other sport?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

beerdrnkr said:


> A championship just like in any other sport?


a sport where they gather information from people outside, use it, succeed and don't share changes or results because of the team.



Ever wonder why I've stopped sharing findings? Just re-hashing old ****?

I'ts because of that ****.. seems the team does not want to help others outside the team other than telling them that driver diameter changes the speed of sound and that a 4 ****ing inch driver can play at 115dB then re-nig.

Now... Scott.. define team and defend it.


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## ibanzil (Jun 29, 2008)

I hope to god Andy gets riled up, makes some phone calls and puts some great cars into some sq comps. Not a personal issue with hybrid, just think it would be awesome to see some big name teams start a little rivalry.

Will someone please get the team thing right for Chad?


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)




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## lucas569 (Apr 17, 2007)

tell em why your mad


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

60ndown said:


>


you are re-hashing the old **** too luke 

gimme an AmberLamps


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

I think judging of the sound portion should be blindfolded
Double blind listening tests have sure changed some minds in home audio back in the day =)

This is in no way an attack on any one brand or another.

It is far too easy for humans to be swayed by our personal likes and dislikes


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

g0a said:


> I think judging of the sound portion should be blindfolded


What if the judge is like 6'9'' and they sit TRY TO in my car and I'm 5'8'' tall.. They'd kill them-self getting in, it would be a blindfolded clusterfuck, judge everywhere swimming between the front and back seat.

I'd feel horrible for them 

Crankin' on my HVAC fan.. "it ain't gettin no louder!"


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I still think a SQ car should be judged at 70MPH on the interstate to see how the system sounds in a real world driving situation, with the windows up and down. That should distinguish the men from the boys.


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## lucas569 (Apr 17, 2007)

AVIDEDTR said:


> then what is your taste? IMHO hybrid has the best car audio speaker for the money. I do like Focal BE line but not at 3x the price.


 i like the sound of my seas excel speakers, its all a matter of personal taste.

HATs sounded fine to my ears just wasn't blown away that's all,its all a matter of OPINION.


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## The Drake (Apr 3, 2007)

ChrisB said:


> I still think a SQ car should be judged at 70MPH on the interstate to see how the system sounds in a real world driving situation, with the windows up and down. That should distinguish the men from the boys.


Well that wouldnt be very practical as that would be an awful waste of gas/time, but recreating typical driving conditions outside of the vehicle would be something cool to see. The whole point of having sound in a vehicle isnt to sit in one spot with the car off and listen, at least not for me. Thats what the home system is for.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

The Drake said:


> Well that wouldnt be very practical as that would be an awful waste of gas/time, but recreating typical driving conditions outside of the vehicle would be something cool to see. The whole point of having sound in a vehicle isnt to sit in one spot with the car off and listen, at least not for me. Thats what the home system is for.


I had people tell me that I need to listen to these SQ cars, but all of them are sitting there with the engine off. The only time I ever do an extensive amount of listening with the engine off is on initial installation or after a gear swap to tune/retune. Other than that, I demand something that sounds decent while driving because I will rarely sit there with the car off and listen.

Making matters worse, both my cars are the absolute worst for being noisy while running. My 97 Civic coupe with its paper thin sheet metal is a noise magnet while driving and my 2006 Rustang GT has an obnoxious exhaust that was installed by the vehicle's prior owner along with some noisy, soft compound tires. Either way, those cars are night and day different sitting there versus traveling down the road!


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Geez Scott,
Get over yourself already. My first two posts weren't directed at you. The stupid IASCA rules are stupid and over the years they've managed to turn an audio contest into something as removed from an audio contest as it can be. Personally, I don't give a rat's ass about whether _I_ win contests, and I'm not going to run a 4-gauge cable to a 100 watt amp to get a few extra points, but I'll do whatever I can to help others who do want to win. I've competed over the years and always took the best sounding car I could build regardless of the rules. All I wanted to do was to expose some people to some stuff they've never heard and never thought about. To me, seeing a few smiles on the faces of listeners and seeing a few judges scratch their heads and ask, "How you do that?" is worth more than a trophy. For me, it isn't about winning trophies, it's about making great sound simple and free of the ******** that's designed to hoodwink consumers into buying crap they don't need or stuff that doesn't work. There are plenty of people who build cars according to the rule book and they win. That's what it takes to win. 

My second post wasn't directed at you either. It was a response to Lycan and intended to entertain him and others, explain that commitment IS related to the resources at one's disposal and to explain appropriate use of those resources when one is attempting to run a business. We have engineers. I have no idea whether you do. Why would I assume that you don't? As I said, none of this was directed at you, despite the fact that your team was the subject of the post.

I'm sure your speakers sound fine. Your 240 SX (I think that's what it is) sounded fine when I listened to it. There are thousands of great sounding cars. Some of those cars have simple systems and some have complex systems. Some have EQ and some have no EQ. Some have speakers in the doors and some have speakers in the kick panels or A-pillars. For some enthusiasts the installation is the end and for others the installation is the means. From my perspective, there's no right way to manage all the compromises necessary to build a great sounding car. There are easy ways and hard ways, though. 

I think my motivation is pretty clear here. I want to build great products that make making great sounding cars simple and straight forward. I have no patience for mythology, spin, snake oil, techno-babble or talking over the heads of people who are interested and who want to learn. Someone has to keep the ******** artists in check--or at least try. So, spew a bunch of crap and I'll do my best to help sort it out for those who want that help.


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## dkh (Apr 2, 2008)

Interesting post - It sure is an indication of where DIYMA is heading - does anyone even read the post heading before answering these days or is it just a 'oh here's a good place to put my rant' ???

Team Hybrids dominate the competitions so it must be political, must be this must be that - not the sound - no, anything but the actual sound !

If you want to know why Team Hybrids dominate, look at the picture of the recent finals where Scott and Black Betty won and check the face of the person who came second - his face say's it all!

:laugh:


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## McChaffy (Oct 6, 2009)

HAT drivers are more than capable of producing very good sound.
Are you good enough to extract it?

Product/build/tuning combo


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Thanks Andy for the clarification. When I saw your replies to a thread about HAT and TH, I naturally believed the things you were saying were directed at, and about HAT and TH. I wasn't led to believe it was all metaphorical.

Chad, I am not sure I follow you. We offer the same application notes and usage recommendations to Team Hybrids members and to regular consumers. There are not two sets of white papers, one for consumers to get 100% efficacy out of the product, and one for competitors to get 105% efficacy out of the product. We all sing from the same sheet of music. It would be a huge mistake on my part to not share learning’s. In fact, I help non-competitors with real-world advice about ten times as often as competitors. I have even detailed several key learning’s in our Clarus and Imagine User’s Manuals. I help people on a daily basis with experiences that are shared with competitor members just the same. The difference with being on the Team is a community of competitors to share *competition experiences*, refine presentations, assist each other in cleaning, detailing, and readiness at events, share advice about products used in competition, from cleaning chemicals to power supplies, and everything in between, give new product updates before release to the public so the Team can react and plan accordingly, share experiences with the product in their own applications (which is everywhere on the net, Team Hybrids members are not secretive), assist each other with tuning and tuning advice, and to root each other on. As always, what we learn in organized competition fuels new product development (notably including the recent Legatia L1 Pro SE development), and fuels how we support consumers and enthusiasts. It simply doesn’t make good business sense to have a Team with its only function to harvest trophies. I hope this answered your question.


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## psycle_1 (Aug 4, 2005)

Chad, here is my definition of what Team Hybrids is all about:

We are a group of competitors that compete in various sound off formats that use Hybrid Audio equipment. Not because we were asked to because of our reputation in the lanes, but because it is quality product. At large events, we plan months in advance on lodging, arrival times, tweak and tune times, etc. Every member of this team helps each other out, whether it be with detailing, tuning, installs, or just for moral support. When not competing, we bounce ideas off of each other because everyone has their own experiences which in turn makes us a very knowledgeable group overall.

This team is much more than just a group of guys and gals getting together... It is more like an extended family. A family I am proud to be associated with. 


Now, as for the "blinding the judges when judging sound" comment... In a lot of instances that would not matter. In my install you cannot see a single speaker, period. They are all hidden for a reason, to be judged with ears, not eyes. In 2007 when I came back from retirement and competed in the IASCA World Finals, nobody aside from the team knew me from Joe Blow... Yet I went up against some heavy hitters like Matt Roberts and Andy Jones which are both well known in the scene and took 3rd place... Did my reputation help me there? I highly doubt it. A persons reputation will only take you so far... A stand up judge will tell you how it is and score it accordingly, regardless of who you are. 

Just like previous posts have said, it takes great equipment, a great install, and a great tune to be successful in this sport. I thoroughly believe we have that in all the cars that are in Team Hybrids.


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## SoundChaser (Apr 3, 2009)

ChrisB said:


> I still think a SQ car should be *judged at 70MPH *on the interstate to see how the system sounds in a real world driving situation, with the *windows* up and *down*. That should distinguish the men from the boys.



Needs more power Arr-arr-arr...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

ChrisB said:


> That should distinguish the men from the boys.


Naahhh, blindfolded, THAT will do it.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Webster’s said:


> Sport:
> 1.
> a. *Physical activity* that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
> b. A particular form of this activity.
> 2. An activity involving *physical exertion* and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.


Car audio competition is not a sport. If you feel it’s a sport based on the above, then you need a serious health checkup and/or it’s time to start exercising. 



Chad’s asking what does team mean for a team member. What do they get out of it. Not how can you help me win. I think so, at least.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Grrr my multi quote is more broke than California and Illinois combined. Hope this works out.



Scott Buwalda said:


> Chad, I am not sure I follow you. We offer the same application notes and usage recommendations to Team Hybrids members and to regular consumers. There are not two sets of white papers, one for consumers to get 100% efficacy out of the product, and one for competitors to get 105% efficacy out of the product. We all sing from the same sheet of music. It would be a huge mistake on my part to not share learning’s. In fact, I help non-competitors with real-world advice about ten times as often as competitors. I have even detailed several key learning’s in our Clarus and Imagine User’s Manuals. I help people on a daily basis with experiences that are shared with competitor members just the same. The difference with being on the Team is a community of competitors to share *competition experiences*, refine presentations, assist each other in cleaning, detailing, and readiness at events, share advice about products used in competition, from cleaning chemicals to power supplies, and everything in between, give new product updates before release to the public so the Team can react and plan accordingly, share experiences with the product in their own applications (which is everywhere on the net, Team Hybrids members are not secretive), assist each other with tuning and tuning advice, and to root each other on. As always, what we learn in organized competition fuels new product development (notably including the recent Legatia L1 Pro SE development), and fuels how we support consumers and enthusiasts. It simply doesn’t make good business sense to have a Team with its only function to harvest trophies. I hope this answered your question.



I agree with this statement and have absolutely no question in regards to your business practice and customer support, I have NEVER heard a bad or even neutral thing in regards to people's experience with you.

But you see, the next thing is more accurate to the representation I got when i first asked about team years ago......



psycle_1 said:


> Chad, here is my definition of what Team Hybrids is all about:
> 
> We are a group of competitors that compete in various sound off formats that use Hybrid Audio equipment. Not because we were asked to because of our reputation in the lanes, but because it is quality product. At large events, we plan months in advance on lodging, arrival times, tweak and tune times, etc. Every member of this team helps each other out, whether it be with detailing, tuning, installs, or just for moral support. When not competing, we bounce ideas off of each other because everyone has their own experiences which in turn makes us a very knowledgeable group overall.
> 
> ...


This is what I have an issue with. things kept within the TEAM and not used to better the car audio industry as a whole. it's funny how things suddenly get hush hush when it's discovered that it works, especially with a tweak or two. 

I cannot even remember who or when but I've recommended a few things on the forum in public, then ont he forum in public asked how it worked out, the response I got was along the lines of "great, but we had to do a couple tweaks" and then asking what was done with a concept recommended it public things got really hushy really fast.

Big Daddy don't care for that all too much.

It's too small of a DYING industry to have teams in that sense, this ain't the NFL or religion folks, it has something to lose.


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## David_Edwards (Nov 12, 2008)

With so many people being a "Sound Quality" genius....why would anyone believe anything that is stated by a seasoned competetitor? Plus, what works in my car might not work in your car and vice versa.
I believe there still has to be an aura to great SQ cars. At the last DIY meet in NC, how many people did I show my EQ settings to? Everyone that asked. How many did I show my crossover points to? Everyone that asked. How many questions did I answer about my install? Countless. To the guys that were there...did I seem like I was hiding anything??


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## ramos (Mar 14, 2006)

David_Edwards said:


> To the guys that were there...did I seem like I was hiding anything??



Only the bodies in the trunk.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

ramos said:


> Only the bodies in the trunk.


the hookers were removed for use at a later time.


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## psycle_1 (Aug 4, 2005)

chad said:


> This is what I have an issue with. things kept within the TEAM and not used to better the car audio industry as a whole. it's funny how things suddenly get hush hush when it's discovered that it works, especially with a tweak or two.


There are no hidden tweaks or secrets and I never led on to say that there was. It's all common sense stuff. Sometimes it just takes another persons point of view to see it. It's not like we're building some sort of flux capacitor DSP to take over the world or anything. The things we do with our cars are the same things you'll see discussed by some of the top installers and tuners here.

Anybody that knows me knows I'll be the first person to talk about my install and what went behind it and why. At INAC a few weeks ago after I did my install presentation Chris Owen asked me to do my presentation for the owner/lead installer of a high class shop (a Unique Whips type of shop) who was competing for his first time and was wanting to get into the SQ side of things. Did I hide anything that time? Nope. He asked a lot of questions and I gave the clear cut truth as to why I did what I did with my car. Like I said, nothing to hide...

I truly believe that Team Hybrids and Hybrid Audio has done more to help the industry than you realize.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

i want to have someone tell me what sounds good, and i will spend weeks of my time and lots of money doing it exactly the way they want.

i also have people tell me what tastes good, 

and when im tired and need to go to bed,

and what movie i want to watch,


because honestly, i cant make those decisions for myself.



audio has nothing to do with enjoying music, this is why i compete .....oh wait... !


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## ramos (Mar 14, 2006)

chad said:


> the hookers were removed for use at a later time.


exacry


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

chad said:


> Naahhh, blindfolded, THAT will do it.


Blindfolded AND driving at 70 MPH on the highway. That'll sort it out nicely.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> Blindfolded AND driving at 70 MPH on the highway. That'll sort it out nicely.


Indeed...it pleases me to see Darwin at work


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## ungo4 (Jun 5, 2009)

David_Edwards said:


> With so many people being a "Sound Quality" genius....why would anyone believe anything that is stated by a seasoned competetitor? Plus, what works in my car might not work in your car and vice versa.
> I believe there still has to be an aura to great SQ cars. At the last DIY meet in NC, how many people did I show my EQ settings to? Everyone that asked. How many did I show my crossover points to? Everyone that asked. How many questions did I answer about my install? Countless. To the guys that were there...did I seem like I was hiding anything??


I'm still trying to figure out how you were hiding that room inside your car. I know it was there because I heard the sound of the room when we listened to your car. 

Seriously, Dave will show you everything about his car because he knows that what works for him will not be what works for almost anyone else There is no need to keep secrets because every car and install is different. Helping people is the key. 

I showed guys all my install photos, explained why I use certain x-over frequencies, speaker locations, etc. while I was there. Hiding things from everyone has become a signature of a few very well known competitors and people assume all competitors do this and it isn't true. Most of the guys I know including several Hybrid guys are more than willing to help people out and tell them how they put their systems together and what they can do to improve their own. 

Car audio is like a brotherhood and we're all in it together so pointing fingers because Team Hybrids is successful is not the best way to help this small community of enthusiasts from getting smaller and eventually going away altogether. How many average people do you see getting into SQ car audio these days? Most people just don't care about sound that much. We need to nurture and support the people we do have, not argue and back stab over a car audio team and why they are successful.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

AcuraTLSQ said:


> What is the OP's definition of dominate?
> 
> 2009 MECA World Finals results: Events
> 
> This opens in the SPL results. Click on the SQ tab to see the SQ results.


agreed.

Hybrid seems like they ruled everything the year before last but it seems like there's more diversity (for a lack of better word) in competition now. That, or there's just a lack of Hybrid team members. This is NOT a stab at team hybrid or Scott, all of whom seem to be great guys (Jorge is my brother from another mother, I believe). Just saying that I haven't seen them 'cleaning up' the past year or so like they had previously.


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## David_Edwards (Nov 12, 2008)

I see alot of MECA SQ guys using Zapco....so many in fact it makes me wonder if they are giving out free candy with them..lol..I don't see that many Zapco users in USACi or IASCA though, but then again I don't have any USACi or IASCA near me...
Team Z has dominated MECA SQ for a few years but look at the sheer number of members they have there...Not a poke at Team Z or anyone affiliated with them.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Well I'd imagine it helps to play the numbers game. The more horses you bet on, the better chance you have at picking a winner right?


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)




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## dlechner (Aug 31, 2006)

There are absolutely no smoke and mirrors with the Hybrid cars. They all start with the fundamental baseline for car audio. MECHANICALLY SOLID INSTALLS!!! They have nothing to hide. 

I don't think our cars would be the same if I gave you my RSX (you too had an RSX) settings from a couple of years ago, tell you to install everything exactly like I did and gave you my Processor settings.

I never hid anything. I had the car open all of the time and constantly answered questions.


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## bikerider (Dec 28, 2008)

David_Edwards said:


> With so many people being a "Sound Quality" genius....why would anyone believe anything that is stated by a seasoned competetitor? Plus, what works in my car might not work in your car and vice versa.
> I believe there still has to be an aura to great SQ cars. At the last DIY meet in NC, how many people did I show my EQ settings to? Everyone that asked. How many did I show my crossover points to? Everyone that asked. How many questions did I answer about my install? Countless. To the guys that were there...did I seem like I was hiding anything??


I got all my questions answered and then some. Hell you even sat in my car and helped me set better xover points and gave me some great tuning tips to center things up better. AND gave me an open invite to come up to VA one Sunday for a real tuning session with you.

No hidden agendas that I could see.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> Just saying that I haven't seen them 'cleaning up' the past year or so like they had previously.


We are weak in MECA and clearly do not have the numbers to fill the huge assortment of classes in MECA. We had five cars at the MECA Finals last year; one with system failure. The other four cars won or placed. One car that won, won MECA's most-advanced SQ class (Master) by MECA rule definition, and has NEVER been beaten in two years of organized MECA competition. Sadly, MECA can only be truly dominated by strength in number (sheer number of cars under one banner). 

On the contrary, Team Hybrids won nine of ten IASCA Eastern Canadian Finals classes in August 2009. The tenth class was lost by 1 point, in system noise. We also won three classes in the Western Canadian Finals, also in August 2009. We also had the highest SQ score and combined SQi score in both the Eastern and Western Canadian Finals, winning the Canadian Finals SQ Best of Show in both the east and west (the highest SQ score, irrespective of install score).

In Mexico, Jorge Juaristi won the USACi Mexican Finals SQ best of show, a little over a year ago.

At the USACi Finals last Fall, October 2009, Team Hybrids cars captured two championships, with two others placing second in their classes.

At the IASCA Western Championships in September 2009, in a field of 21 or so cars, Jim Becker won the SQC title outright (a sound-only class), and was named the best-sounding vehicle west of the Mississippi by IASCA standard.

Finally, as of Mach 12, 2010, and for four years in a row, Hybrid Audio equipped cars have won more first-place trophies at the IASCA North American Championships than any other manufacturer. For the third year in a row, a HAT-equipped car has won Ultimate, and the second year in a row, winning the expert division. We had eight cars competing at the INAC Finals this year and won every class competed in, with the exception of one, which was a tie for first (second place by sound quality). We did a 1-2 sweep of Rookie, 1-2 sweep of Professional, 1-2 sweep of Ultimate, and won Expert with the highest score ever recorded in IASCA's 21-year history. 

The reason why it seems we're not 'cleaning up' in this forum is because several key, outspoken users of this forum despise car audio competition. So the press releases have gone elsewhere and have been posted on our own website, here: http://www.hybrid-audio.com/news.htm

But yeah, winning all but one class at IASCA Finals, winning Canada's best-sounding vehicle award on both the east and west coasts, USACi Mexico SQ best of show, high wins and placement at the USACi Finals and MECA Finals, the best-sounding car in California and west of the Mississippi...yeah, we're still out there doing our thing over the past year...


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Scott Buwalda said:


> The reason why it seems we're not 'cleaning up' in this forum is because several key, outspoken users of this forum despise car audio competition. So the press releases have gone elsewhere. But yeah, winning all but one class at IASCA Finals, winning Canada's best-sounding vehicle award on both the east and west coasts, USACi Mexico SQ best of show, high wins and placement at the USACi Finals and MECA Finals...yeah, we're still out there doing our thing


Well, first off Scott, I hope you didn’t take my post as a jab. You and I have shared a lot of email traffic and I think you know that I have a lot of appreciation for how you’ve represented yourself as an mfg and as an enthusiast as well. Your speakers aren’t why I’d run Hybrid audio gear: you are. Not sucking up… just saying. I feel the same way about Mark Brooks. You guys are enthusiasts first and always there to lend a hand even to guys who aren’t part of your circle. That means a lot to me. 

I understand (am aware) that HAT has done well in other organizations. You’re right, I was pretty much focusing my methods on MECA. What Kirk posted earlier was the same thing I was thinking when I first read the title. And by that I mean, as I said earlier, that a couple years ago HAT seemed to be about the only thing people ran. As a spectator I was seeing ALL sorts of talk about HAT gear… a lot from Andy Jones as he was the main person I was reading about and trying to learn from at that time. But, there were also plenty of other team members rep’ing your gear. I’m not trying to insinuate that HAT has ‘fallen off’; it could simply be that there are less competitors (a) or that there are less HAT competitors in MECA (b) both (c) or finally, my own perspective has changed (d). There’s really no conclusion to draw from that. 
In other words, unless D above has happened, it just seems like HAT really doesn’t “dominate”. I mean that respectfully. I just don’t know how to type it out respectfully. Overall, I’m quite sure that my own view points and exposure to things have skewed my perception of HATs saturation level. It’s more than likely that it’s simply because HAT isn’t new to me that I’m accustomed to seeing it out there in the audio world (forums or not) that I don’t really think much of it like I used to (ie: What is HAT?). 
Most likely a conglomerate of all the above, though. 

Just trying to clarify a bit. And the term ‘cleaning up’ was pulled from elsewhere in this thread. I don’t believe I made that one up.


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## David_Edwards (Nov 12, 2008)

Just to ''clear up'' my post from eariler...Team Z's dominance is in MECA, while Team Hybrids is all across the board....nothing more nothing less.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

dupe


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## jonnyanalog (Nov 14, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Your speakers aren’t why I’d run Hybrid audio gear: you are. Not sucking up… just saying. You guys are enthusiasts first and always there to lend a hand even to guys who aren’t part of your circle. That means a lot to me.


+1 
I have experienced the bond between team members and its genuine. I met John Sketoe, Bill Pleasant, Dave Seal, and Scott himself at the USACi finals in Dallas. Everyone was talking to me and treating me like I was a member of the team even though I wasn't. To me thats the strength of Team Hybrids. No one was hiding anything and all were willing to give seat time and get into the nitty gtitty of their systems and cars in general.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

AVIDEDTR said:


> then what is your taste? IMHO hybrid has the best car audio speaker for the money


That's damning with faint praise if I ever saw it.



lycan said:


> Wasn't intended to be challenging, honest. One of HAT's attributes is the team's commitment to _winning_


That begs the question of what use being able to optimize a system within the constraints of various rulebooks (the records seem to show, based on this thread at least, that Buwalda & Co have that covered) has to do with _actual car audio._ You know, enjoying music as a secondary activity while engaged in the act of driving. That's driving, not sitting in a parking lot. And the music comes second! Handling one's multithousand pound metal machine with due care comes first.



lycan said:


> I was honestly just curious about Harman's commitment to the competition scene. Innocent inquiry, that's all


I would expect that they recognize the things for what they are, _all_ they are, which is a very small marketing niche that doesn't have much if any relevance outside of its own little world. 



David_Edwards said:


> With so many people being a "Sound Quality" genius....why would anyone believe anything that is stated by a seasoned competetitor?


Good question. Being able to closely follow a rulebook and extract maximum points from that is only very slightly related to actual car audio. (See supra.) So one can't really claim that being a "competitor" provides any sort of authority for actual car audio. So any claims "seasoned competitor" makes should be evaluated by the same standards one uses to evaluate claims by anyone else.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

DS-21 said:


> That begs the question of what use being able to optimize a system within the constraints of various rulebooks (the records seem to show, based on this thread at least, that Buwalda & Co have that covered) has to do with _actual car audio._ You know, enjoying music while engaged in the act of driving. That's driving, not sitting in a parking lot.


The thread is not about the value or merit of car audio competition, but rather why one particular team is dominating in the competition scene.

Nonetheless, how a car audio system sounds while it's "sitting still" is _not_ uncorrelated with how it sounds while it's moving ... quite the contrary, in fact. Yes, when the car is moving, there are uncorrelated noises _added_ to the system-while-still ... alternator whine, road noise, wind noise. But these additive noises don't change the strong underlying correlation (or connection) between the system-while-still, and the system-while-moving.

VERY similar to the basic principles of adaptive filtering


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

lycan said:


> The thread is not about the value or merit of car audio competition


When I see posts making claims such as "best car audio speakers," etc., it's quite clear to me that many people are attempting to establish a link between being able to follow an organization's rulebook such that one extracts maximum points and the value of that activity to other things.



lycan said:


> Nonetheless, how a car audio system sounds while it's "sitting still" is _not_ uncorrelated with how it sounds while it's moving ... quite the contrary,


Entirely uncorrelated, no. But, of course, nobody claimed that. We're not talking about how anything "sounds" here. We're talking about how it "scores" according to a rulebook. Big difference.


----------



## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

DS-21 said:


> Entirely uncorrelated, no. But, of course, nobody claimed that. We're not talking about how anything "sounds" here. We're talking about how it "scores" according to a rulebook. Big difference.


I thought someone mentioned something about "sitting in a parking lot" versus "driving". If that's the complaint, it has little merit ... because adding _uncorrelated_ noise sources (alternator whine, road noise, wind noise) does NOT change the fundamental correlation of how the system behaves in two environments: still versus moving.

If the complaint is that the rulebook includes too much junk about stuff NOT related to _sound_, i'm sure THAT complaint _does_ have merit. And I'm not familiar with all the organizations and classes, but it seems there are classes more targeted to sound, rather than installation practices.


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

audiogodz1 said:


>


hahaha - that about sums it up


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

lycan said:


> I thought someone mentioned something about "sitting in a parking lot" versus "driving". If that's the complaint, it has little merit ... because adding _uncorrelated_ noise sources (alternator whine, road noise, wind noise) does NOT change the fundamental correlation of how the system behaves in two environments: still versus moving.


No, it doesn't. The change in both the absolute level and the spectral content of the noise floor matters.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

DS-21 said:


> No, it doesn't. The change in both the absolute level and the spectral content of the noise floor matters.


Not if it's uncorrelated.

It doesn't matter what the spectrum of the additive noise looks like. If it's UNCORRELATED to the primary signal ... which in our case is the music ... then it does NOT change the strong, basic CORRELATION between the system-while-still, versus the system-while-moving. An adaptive filter, for example, could easily "cancel" all audio output from the system (if desired), even in the presence of uncorrelated wind, road, or alternator noise.

And it's a very god approximation that the sources of noise one encounters while in motion ... namely alternator whine, road noise and wind noise ... are very much _uncorrelated_ to the music being played through the audio system.

Bottom line : audio system performance while-still, remains VERY closely correlated to audio system performance while-moving ... even in the presence of additive (and uncorrelated) road, wind and alternator noise.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

Hat has been improving and the fact that they're doing well in competition is testament to this. Are HAT the best, no one said they were just quality at a fairly reasonable price.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

michaelsil1 said:


> Are HAT the best, no one said they were just quality at a fairly reasonable price.


Ummm...yes they did! 



David_Edwards said:


> That and they are the best car audio speakers on the planet!!


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## David_Edwards (Nov 12, 2008)

I guess I am kinda biased though...


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

lycan said:


> Not if it's uncorrelated.
> 
> It doesn't matter what the spectrum of the additive noise looks like. If it's UNCORRELATED to the primary signal ... which in our case is the music ... then it does NOT change the strong, basic CORRELATION between the system-while-still, versus the system-while-moving.


We're arguing past each other, as usually seems to happen when you overthink a topic. See, e.g., jitter, something you're spending a lot of time on of late despite the simple fact that it has never been shown to be audible at the levels present in even badly-measuring consumer audio equipment.

A system that sounds balanced and full in a parking lot could easily sound thin and reedy on the road. A system that sounds adequately dynamic in a parked car may sound gutless at speed with the top down. That's all I'm saying: one should design for the actual constraints one encounters in actual use. The actual use of a competition-focused car and a music-listening car are very different, so optimization around the constraints imposed by the rulebook in the former means little to the latter activity. 

Also, one should note that many of the sonic criteria used in competition have little to no relevance to listening to music while driving. Imaging, for instance. As long as nothing is out of place enough to distract one from the primary task of driving - i.e. some images on the dash, some at the ankles - it's just not that important. Regardless of whether one personally values imaging a great deal or not, in a moving car one's focus should be on the images of other solid objects outside the windshield, not the little musicians projected onto the dashboard.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> Ummm...yes they did!


Dave doesn't count he's ...................!


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

DS-21 said:


> We're arguing past each other, as usually seems to happen when you overthink a topic. See, e.g., jitter, something you're spending a lot of time on of late despite the simple fact that it has never been shown to be audible at the levels present in even badly-measuring consumer audio equipment.
> 
> A system that sounds balanced and full in a parking lot could easily sound thin and reedy on the road. A system that sounds adequately dynamic in a parked car may sound gutless at speed with the top down. That's all I'm saying: one should design for the actual constraints one encounters in actual use. The actual use of a competition-focused car and a music-listening car are very different, so optimization around the constraints imposed by the rulebook in the former means little to the latter activity.
> 
> Also, one should note that many of the sonic criteria used in competition have little to no relevance to listening to music while driving. Imaging, for instance. As long as nothing is out of place enough to distract one from the primary task of driving - i.e. some images on the dash, some at the ankles - it's just not that important. Regardless of whether one personally values imaging a great deal or not, in a moving car one's focus should be on the images of other solid objects outside the windshield, not the little musicians projected onto the dashboard.


So let me see if i understand the current argument against car audio competition :

While _driving_ in a car, one's primary focus should be on the road, other cars, and possible safety hazards, rather than the music. Indeed, the music should be "background" to the primary task of driving. If the audio system does something too "real", like proper imaging, it may _distract_ one from the _primary_ goal of driving, and thereby create a safety hazard. And this has little or no connection with car audio competition, because the judges are _too focused_ on the audio system. They are _not_ distracted by other tasks or events, and therefore the "score" has little to do with real-world, music-while-driving.

Is that accurate?


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

lycan said:


> So let me see if i understand the current argument against car audio competition :


There is no "argument against car audio competition." That's asinine. If people enjoy an activity, and it does not harm others (or themselves to a serious degree) why should anyone say they shouldn't do it? 

There is, however, an argument against the relevancy of car audio competition methods and results to actual car audio use.

It is not a trivial distinction.



lycan said:


> While _driving_ in a car, one's primary focus should be on the road, other cars, and possible safety hazards, rather than the music.


Are you saying you actually disagree with that statement?



lycan said:


> If the audio system does something too "real", like proper imaging, it may _distract_ one from the _primary_ goal of driving, and thereby create a safety hazard.


You're not reading the words I actually put in front of you. (Again. You seem to enjoy getting me to repeat myself for some reason. Oh well, for now at least I'll humor you.) I did not write in the quoted text that "proper imaging" could create a safety hazard. What I wrote was that, unless the imaging is _so bad as to be distracting,_ using the example of a system that puts some images at the ankles and others on the dash, it's not that important in a moving car. I said nothing about "proper imaging" in the context of an actual car audio system at all!

Or do you really disagree that, in a moving car, imaging plays second fiddle to issues such as spectral balance. For competition, it may make sense to compromise spectral balance for imaging, if one reasonably believes one can achieve a higher overall score by doing so. But in an actual car system, that tradeoff makes much less sense. Different constraints, different patterns of optimization.



lycan said:


> And this has little or no connection with car audio competition, because the judges are _too focused_ on the audio system.


Again, please read the words _actually in front of you_ before spouting off on what you think they mean. It will help you, I promise. To help guide your aging canine eyes, I've copied the relevant phrase and pasted it, infra.

"[O]ptimization around the constraints imposed by the rulebook in [competition] means little to [driving while listening to music]." 

One should design for the relevant task, and not draw unfounded inferences based on designing for one task to performance in another.

You keep trying to draw different inferences, but keep missing the obvious statement that's put right in front of your face.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

michaelsil1 said:


> Hat has been improving and the fact that they're doing well in competition is testament to this. Are HAT the best, no one said they were just quality at a fairly reasonable price.


So, what then constitutes "the best"? And by what definition are you using to draw your conclusion?

If there is a better speaker, then why doesn't someone use them in comps to prove it?

A lot of what people are saying falls along the lines of, "HAT wins because HAT cares the most about winning".

So, no other high end speaker manufacturer gives a **** enough to put their best foot forward in sq comps?

It's unfortunate, but the more success HAT has, the more backlash will follow, not unlike JL Audio.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Here's the words I read, that you were so kind to put in front of me:



DS-21 said:


> Also, one should note that *many of the sonic criteria used in competition have little to no relevance to listening to music while driving*. Imaging, for instance. As long as nothing is out of place enough to distract one from the primary task of driving - i.e. some images on the dash, some at the ankles - it's just not that important. *Regardless of whether one personally values imaging a great deal or not, in a moving car one's focus should be on the images of other solid objects outside the windshield, not the little musicians projected onto the dashboard.*


In a _moving_ car, one's "focus" should be on objects "outside the windshield". Did I get that part right?

Since we are debating the "relevance" of car audio competition, in a _non-moving_ car, wouldn't it be a fair inference that the objection is this: judges are NOT "focused" on objects "outside the windshield"? Instead, judges are focused on the audio system, rather than driving? In short, judges put too much emphasis on stuff that the driver should _not_ be paying attention to while driving?

Moving versus non-moving, and where a driver's ... versus a judge's ... attention should be placed. Isn't that the new objection?

Please tell me where i've gone astray.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

lycan said:


> In a _moving_ car, one's "focus" should be on objects "outside the windshield". Did I get that part right?


Assuming one would rather not crash her/his car, that should be an obvious statement to anyone capable of rational human thought.



lycan said:


> Since we are debating the "relevance" of car audio competition, in a _non-moving_ car, wouldn't it be a fair inference that the objection is this: judges are NOT "focused" on objects "outside the windshield"?


It would not be a fair inference. It would be an irrelevant one. (And entirely incorrect due to your use of "the.") And you are presumably smart enough to know it, so why are you wasting our time?



lycan said:


> Moving versus non-moving, and where a driver's ... versus a judge's ... attention should be placed. Isn't that the new objection


The objection is the same as it has always been for any reasonable person: the constraints are different, so the optimization should be different as well. And being able to tailor effectively to one set of constraints does not necessarily translate into being able to tailor to a different set of constraints. Especially when in one case the constraints are codified in a rulebook, and in the other it requires actual human thought to figure out _what the relevant constraints are in the first place._ It's kind of like an MIT grad who's not so good with the whole reading comprehension thing, or understanding that just because something may be calculable that doesn't mean that it has ever been shown to be audible. 

I don't have anything more to say on the topic, so the last word is yours.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

DS-21 said:


> Assuming one would rather not crash her/his car, that should be an obvious statement to anyone capable of rational human thought.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've already agreed with you on the rule-book issue ... at least, for some classes of competition (i'm not familiar with all classes & rules). No need to recycle old points, in an attempt to confuse the new ones.

I'm still trying to get the issue about a judge's emphasis on imaging (for example). You said :

1. Many sonic criteria used in competition have little or no relevance to music-while-driving
2. Imaging is an example
3. Driver should be focused on objects outside the car, rather than images inside the car

The only conclusion i see, is that some aspects of the audio system (your example is imaging) should take a "back seat"  to attention-while-driving. So if the judging places too much emphasis on aspects of the audio system that might distract one from the task of driving, according to this line of thought, then the judging loses "relevance". Isn't that what you're saying?

Honestly, i'm just looking for clarification on a point i don't get.

Where I went to school, or an analysis of jitter, or my age ... are all irrelevant.

EDIT : oh well, a debate for another day


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## RattyMcClelland (Nov 28, 2008)

Why do i use HAT speakers?

When i 1st installed mine and listened to this








I DID JUST THAT. WITH THAT FACE. 

Seriously though.
- Great customer service and teamwork
- Alot of forum help to get the best from the speakers
- The sound is right FOR ME. Very in your face and realistic how i perceive live music to be.
- I never fatigue from long periods of listening
- In the UK they are great value for money against higher priced stuff and play way way better.


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

AcuraTLSQ said:


> 1	Kirk Proffitt AL Schil Acoustics/XS Power/Zapco 84.2
> 2	Aaron Thomas GA Schil Acoustics 84.0


You just HAD to bring that up again huh? Bastard!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I think the point DS-21 is making goes back to his definition of car audio, although some of the points taken away from his first few posts seem to detract from what (I think) he was trying to say:



DS-21 said:


> That begs the question of what use being able to optimize a system within the constraints of various rulebooks (the records seem to show, based on this thread at least, that Buwalda & Co have that covered) has to do with actual car audio. *You know, enjoying music as a secondary activity while engaged in the act of driving.* That's driving, not sitting in a parking lot. And the music comes second! Handling one's multithousand pound metal machine with due care comes first.


He's not arguing that judges in a competition should be focused on the road rather than imaging; he's arguing that car audio competitions and the criteria with which results are obtained are mostly irrelevant to "car audio" (as he defines it). Using the definition quoted above, I think most people would agree that competitions and their outcomes are irrelevant to _enjoying music as a secondary activity while engaged in the act of driving,_ if not solely for the fact that they are done while NOT engaged in the act of driving. Maybe that's oversimplifying it a bit, but that's what I took away. 

Regardless, I think Lycan and DS-21 should duke it out, Mortal Kombat style. You guys could throw beams of physics and finite math problems at each other, until one of you ultimately rips open the top of the others' head, eats his brain, and spawns into a new species of superintelligence. FATALITY!!!


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> I understand (am aware) that HAT has done well in other organizations. You’re right, I was pretty much focusing my methods on MECA. <snip> I’m not trying to insinuate that HAT has ‘fallen off’; it could simply be that there are less competitors (a) or that there are less HAT competitors in MECA (b) both (c) or finally, my own perspective has changed (d).


Fair enough dude, I can understand what you are saying. The answer to your question is definitely option B, but perhaps a bit of option D too. Simply put, last year's Team Hybrids showing was the most saturation at a MECA Finals we have ever had as a team...ever. Five cars, one with system failure. It is by far our most youthful program, and one that we have given *some* thought to grow organically, but not nearly as much effort as IASCA or USACi (or EMMA in the UK), due to various reasons we perceive as a team. 

So, to summarize, we have never had saturation at any MECA event...perhaps that's why it appears that we're 'falling off' to you; that would be because we've never really been there to begin with to allow for a 'falling off.' By the way, we have won some key victories in MECA (Master two years in a row a Finals, and the sound quality best of show award three weeks ago at the MECA Daytona Spring Break Nationals). Somehow, those interested in Team Hybrids MECA efficacy forgot to include that little snippet of information. Dominating in MECA, no. Simply because we don't have a car to fill every class. That's the _only_ reason.


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## gymrat2005 (Oct 4, 2009)

I was going to try and avoid this post, but I'd be remiss if I didn't speak on behalf of Hybrid. I just think they make a really good product. Nothing revolutionary as far as components used, or technology employed, but the engineering is solid as is the build quality. The price point relevance is in the eye of the beholder. 

I also think that Team Hybrids is successful because of both Scott's love for the hobby of tuning and competing, as well as the level of support he provides for his product and customers. Support for me goes far beyond posting pdf's of instructions and specs for all to see, but actually taking a hands on approach to making sure that customers get the most out of the product they are using..whether it be a Hybrid product or not. Long before I even purchased a Hybrid speaker, I was receiving tips and suggestions on how to make what I had work to it's fullest potential. Now that I have some Hybrid speakers, I am enjoying them. 

However, with that said, it's been stated time and time again, it's the installation and tuning that makes the majority of speakers sink or swim in a given application.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

mikey7182 said:


> I think the point DS-21 is making goes back to his definition of car audio, although some of the points taken away from his first few posts seem to detract from what (I think) he was trying to say:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What if we told you guys that lycan and DS-21 were ... the same dude! Wouldn't that be funny? 

We're not. But it would be funny as hell.


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## gymrat2005 (Oct 4, 2009)

lycan said:


> What if we told you guys that lycan and DS-21 were ... the same dude!


That would be a serious alter ego/split personality trip.  

Hell I would need meds if that were true, after listening to all the back and forth between you two...lol


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Is there Team Hybrids over in EMMA?


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

rain27 said:


> So, what then constitutes "the best"? And by what definition are you using to draw your conclusion?
> 
> If there is a better speaker, then why doesn't someone use them in comps to prove it?
> 
> ...


My criteria for best is quite different than probably most.

In a Car I want something that will get really loud and maintain its composure and realism, I listen to mostly Classical Music. 

HAT Drivers tuned to win competitions will not do that!

In a car determining what's works best is a process of trail and error. If I had enough money I could tell you what works best in a 1998 Toyota Avalon.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Scott Buwalda said:


> Fair enough dude, I can understand what you are saying. The answer to your question is definitely option B, but perhaps a bit of option D too. Simply put, last year's Team Hybrids showing was the most saturation at a MECA Finals we have ever had as a team...ever. Five cars, one with system failure. It is by far our most youthful program, and one that we have given *some* thought to grow organically, but not nearly as much effort as IASCA or USACi (or EMMA in the UK), due to various reasons we perceive as a team.
> 
> So, to summarize, we have never had saturation at any MECA event...perhaps that's why it appears that we're 'falling off' to you; that would be because we've never really been there to begin with to allow for a 'falling off.' By the way, we have won some key victories in MECA (Master two years in a row a Finals, and the sound quality best of show award three weeks ago at the MECA Daytona Spring Break Nationals). Somehow, those interested in Team Hybrids MECA efficacy forgot to include that little snippet of information. Dominating in MECA, no. Simply because we don't have a car to fill every class. That's the _only_ reason.


Cool. At least you understand what my point was. I just wanted to clarify that I have no hard feelings or ill intentions by my posts in this thread. Simply put, I was just expressing that it seems to me that the HAT showing isn't as strong as it used to be and figured it had more to do with B & D, which is the title/topic of the thread. 
When I think of HAT as having a stronghold, I think back to 2007/2008 when all I heard about was the HAT guys winning comps left and right. 

FWIW, I hope your guys make it to some MECA comps. I've heard a lot about a certain few cars and really would like to hear them. We need to get Jorge to come to the MECA finals again as a spectator so I can steal his armhair and clone him.


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## Torquem (Jun 27, 2009)

I am sticking with my "mind control tweeter" theory


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> When I think of HAT as having a stronghold, I think back to 2007/2008 when all I heard about was the HAT guys winning comps left and right.


Well, we are still, and even moreso then 2007. Not to be a glutton for rehashing stuff, but in 2007, we won five of nine IASCA Finals classes, or 55% of the first-place trophies. This year we won four of six, and only competed in five of the said classes. Four out of five is 80% effectiveness. Three of these classes it was a one-two sweep.

---maybe we were more vocal in 2007?---

And as mentioned previously, at the IASCA 2009 Canadian Finals, we won 90% of the first-place trophies. At the 2009 USACi Finals, we won 40% of the first place trophies, with two second-place finishes. In the past year, we won the best of show sound in western Canada, eastern Canada, western IASCA Finals, and best of show sound at the USACi Finals in Mexico. All shows were loaded with strong competition with supported competitors and teams. We have seen MECA success as well, mentioned previously (Daytona, Master Class at the last two Finals, etc.).

---I couldn't have scripted these results any better if I had written them myself---

Simple fact of the matter is that MECA is not our strong suit, purposely so. We're contemplating puting more effort into this format. But our obvious formats of choice are IASCA, USACi, and EMMA for multiple reasons.

Someone also mentioned Team Hybrids EMMA. We officially began our EMMA Euro team about a week ago with a few cars out of Holland. Our EMMA-UK program is a few years old, and is quite strong with several wins and placements at the EMMA-UK Finals over the past couple of years...

Scott


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

back to 'D'. Maybe I'm just more accustomed to hearing the name now and don't really think to myself "HAT, what's that" like I used to.

Is David Brooks (that's his name, correct) still competing? I remember hearing about his insane truck (something like 8 L8's in the doors) quite a bit when I first got into this hobby. I went to the 2007 Finals as a spectator and listened to a few cars but missed his. Wanted to get a chance to hear it at some point but never did and this year I haven't really seen or heard about his truck at all. Then again, it seems like the shows are even smaller now than they were last year. Hopefully things will pick up this summer and I'll get the chance to hear some awesome cars at Finals. Speaking of which, do you think you'll be there in your gt-r? Hey, I'm having a GTG next weekend. Atl is only about 3-3.5 hours from me. 2 hours if your car has 1,000 HP.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

lycan said:


> The only conclusion i see, is that some aspects of the audio system (your example is imaging) should take a "back seat"  to attention-while-driving. So if the judging places too much emphasis on aspects of the audio system that might distract one from the task of driving, according to this line of thought, then the judging loses "relevance". Isn't that what you're saying?


OK, I lied about it being my last post.

Yes, that's half of what I'm saying. The other half is that as some things go down in relative importance, others (for example in this case, resistance to thermal/"power" compression - due to the overall louder levels required to overcome the noise floor - and other aspects of perceived spectral balance at higher SPL) gain relative importance. 

There are different constraints and different problems around which systems designed for different situations should be optimized.



mikey7182 said:


> Regardless, I think Lycan and DS-21 should duke it out, Mortal Kombat style. You guys could throw beams of physics and finite math problems at each other


No thanks. I like my spine right where it is, thank you very much. I don't think it would do well if exposed to air. Seriously, my understanding of math basically stops when the thingys that look like "forte" dynamics markings with the cross-hatch omitted come into play.

Now, if we could throw statutes and launch canons of construction at each other, I'd like my odds much better. 



lycan said:


> What if we told you guys that lycan and DS-21 were ... the same dude! Wouldn't that be funny?


God damn it, don't give away the joke!


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## foosman (Oct 14, 2007)

Well guys, all I can add to this conversation is I am a proud member of TEAM HYBRIDS and I couldn't be happier. When I first approached Scott about joining the team I readily admitted I was a rookie with no experience in competing, but shared a love of car audio and it had always been a dream for me to try my hand at competing and building a high end SQ car, not only for competing, but for everyday enjoyment. After all, love of music is why we do this. 
It seemed we were a pretty good match with similar goals in mind so I was accepted as a candidate. I built the Shelby with all HAT product and did well locally winning everything in my class until I got to World Finals where I got my ass handed to me. All along TEAM HYBRIDS members supported me, Scott put up with endless phone calls to help the rookie out. While the product is superior to anything I have ever used in the past, the product is not what makes us a team. It is the love of competing, the fellowship of your brothers, the friendships we make that make us a team.


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## instalher (May 13, 2009)

ok so lets get some background on who scott is... how long have you competed? what are some of your best moments competing in car audio? being the owner of a speaker company, that tells me you are an aqustical engineer, where did you get your degree? and do you build and design all your own speakers? are you building another car to top the nissan?? (is that possible)? whats better miller lite or bud lite?


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

60ndown said:


> i want to have someone tell me what sounds good, and i will spend weeks of my time and lots of money doing it exactly the way they want.
> 
> i also have people tell me what tastes good,
> 
> ...


Sounds like you need to join the ARMY. 

>^..^<


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

instalher said:


> ok so lets get some background on who scott is... how long have you competed?


1988 - 2004 and 2010+.



instalher said:


> what are some of your best moments competing in car audio?


I think what sticks in my mind the most is my first IASCA Finals win in 1998; Expert 1-600 division and class. That was the same year I survived a terrible car accident and my son was born. 1998 was a good year. Daytona IASCA Finals a few months ago was a good one too - with the highest score ever recorded in organized compertition, any format, any country, any competitor.



instalher said:


> being the owner of a speaker company, that tells me you are an aqustical engineer, where did you get your degree?


Florida Atlantic University Bachelor of Science and Master of Science.



instalher said:


> and do you build and design all your own speakers?


Every single one of them, from CAD/CAM concept to production. I do all initial and final voicing as well.



instalher said:


> are you building another car to top the nissan?? (is that possible)?


Welcome to the Buwalda Hybrids International Website - Home of the Triple Threat! That's seven years, 10,000+ man-hours, and over $150,000 in cash investment. I continue to install on my own cars to keep "plugged in" with those that are installing my gear, so that I continue to build gear that is easy to install. [/quote]



instalher said:


> whats better miller lite or bud lite?


I guess I am a square peg, because I couldn't tell you...I have never drank. Now a good full cup of ice cold sweet tea, or some man-fuel Mt. Dew, and maybe throw some carbo-rich baked goodies and I'm in heaven.

Scott


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

nice... ^_^


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## audio+civic (Apr 16, 2009)

Put up or Shut up. If you don't compete than your opinion does not matter.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

audio+civic said:


> Put up or Shut up. * If you don't compete than your opinion does not matter.*


:laugh::laugh: Really ?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I don't like stale crusty sounding speakers.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

audio+civic said:


> Put up or Shut up. If you don't compete than your opinion does not matter.


LOL... dear god.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

I used to compete. Does my opinion matter? 

Here's the real deal...speakers don't matter, so long as they don't really suck and so long as the system includes tweeters.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

It used to be* MB Q's* for 10 years or so in a row, back in the day. [ Some thought their tweeters could make a grown man cry ]


----------



## vidizzle (May 30, 2008)

i used to compete and competed against team hybrid and its not the speakers..as my speakers and sub cost me a mere $200 and scored higher on sound but they whopped me on installation..

but i admire team hybrids alot as their determination, their work ethic and the time and effort they put into their cars along with their pooled knowledge is astounding..they also wouldnt hesitate to help one another and that is why they win..if there was to be more teams like that who work together and help each other out they would probably face alot more stiffer competition..


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I don't like stale crusty sounding speakers.


I finally got to hear Hybrid's offerings a few weeks ago. They were allright, I would not pay what they ask for what I heard though.

I really liked the L4, I disliked all the hybrid tweets I heard. They were disconnected and well... tweety. In fact in one car when asked I said "Make the L4 do much more work up top and bring the tweet in at roll-off. I now know why Scott recommends a higher crosssover point, I would prefer the crosssover point set at about oh, 25K on the high-pass  One pair especially, Allpine Andy on his board had them dialed in pretty well.

The L8's made an impressive amount of low end, kinda "fluffy" sounding though if you ask me, not a bad fluffy but they seemed to lack the snap I like. but some people don't like the snap that I do and would just LOVE them. The L8's were run subless, and did well doing so.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

vidizzle said:


> i used to compete and competed against team hybrid and its not the speakers..as my speakers and sub cost me a mere $200 and scored higher on sound but they whopped me on installation..


I recently won a small comp, having the only car NOT hybrid  

I was shocked at how many people around this area did use them though. market saturation seems prevalent.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

chad said:


> I finally got to hear Hybrid's offerings a few weeks ago. They were allright, I would not pay what they ask for what I heard though.
> 
> I really liked the L4, I disliked all the hybrid tweets I heard. They were disconnected and well... tweety. In fact in one car when asked I said "Make the L4 do much more work up top and bring the tweet in at roll-off. I now know why Scott recommends a higher crossover point, I would prefer the crossover point set at about oh, 25K on the high-pass  One pair especially, Alpine Andy on his board had them dialed in pretty well.
> 
> The L8's made an impressive amount of low end, kinda "fluffy" sounding though if you ask me, not a bad fluffy but they seemed to lack the snap I like. but some people don't like the snap that I do and would just LOVE them. The L8's were run subless, and did well doing so.


Now you know why I don't like them. I honestly wouldn't run them if I was paid to use them but that's just me and don't mean any disrespect for the team members that I like for who they are.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

chad said:


> I recently won a small comp, having the only car NOT hybrid
> 
> I was shocked at how many people around this area did use them though. market saturation seems prevalent.


And all 5 speakers in your system combined cost less than ONE PAIR of HAT speakers


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Now you know why I don't like them. I honestly wouldn't run them if I was paid to use them but that's just me and don't mean any disrespect for the team members that I like for who they are.





Hillbilly SQ said:


> And all 5 speakers in your system combined cost less than ONE PAIR of HAT speakers



As Andy stated any ole speaker is good enough if you know what to do with it 

The tweeters for MB Q's were screechers :surprised:


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> And all 5 speakers in your system combined cost less than ONE PAIR of HAT speakers


Possibly only one driver. I'm sitting right at 200 bucks for all 5. What's an L8 go for?


----------



## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

chad said:


> I recently won a small comp, having the only car NOT hybrid
> 
> I was shocked at how many people around this area did use them though. market saturation seems prevalent.


what speakers were you using? just wanna have a look at the spec and price for comparison...


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Tweets...
https://www.madisound.com/store/pro...=1679&osCsid=ae9a28a32173b1a128dd107dc5c51a7e

Mids:
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=8406

Sub:
Dayton RSS265HO-4 10" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 Ohm | Parts-Express.com


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I might give those Vifas a try when Parts Express gets them back in stock. But I have really fallen in love with the Vifa DQ25s.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Now you know why I don't like them. I honestly wouldn't run them if I was paid to use them but that's just me and don't mean any disrespect for the team members that I like for who they are.





Hillbilly SQ said:


> And all 5 speakers in your system combined cost less than ONE PAIR of HAT speakers


I'd run that L4, I really DID like it. For some reason it just stood out as a kickass sounding speaker.

I can't discredit Hybrid for one SOLE reason, well possibly two. They are passionate, and because of this their support is excellent. Of the Hybrid dealers here, Scott, 12V electronics, Dave, probably more, they have all been VERY cool to me and treated me kindly. I have no issues with their product and if you like it, then you like it. We are all entitled to our own decisions and opinions.

Is it the end-all/be-all recipe to success, a huge penis and 6 pack abs? Nope, but nothing is for that matter.

Chad


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> I might give those Vifas a try when Parts Express gets them back in stock. But I have really fallen in love with the Vifa DQ25s.


I dig them, I went in to them not knowing what to expect and almost expecting failure. I was pleasantly surprised.

I got in on the deal here for 20 bucks a pop, buy 4 get free shipping. I would have totally sold you my extra set but guess what? Just before the comp I lost my settings and I heard what they can do unadulterated and they don't jack around. So I think I'm gonna use them in a different project


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## vidizzle (May 30, 2008)

chad said:


> I recently won a small comp, having the only car NOT hybrid
> 
> I was shocked at how many people around this area did use them though. market saturation seems prevalent.


i agree the market is saturated hence they win so much..i do like the l4 for its flexibility and dislike thier tweeters

i would compete if there were competitions even if it is small as a meet in south or central florida but unfortunately there arent atleast not that ive heard of


----------



## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

chad said:


> I'd run that L4, I really DID like it. For some reason it just stood out as a kickass sounding speaker.
> 
> I can't discredit Hybrid for one SOLE reason, well possibly two. They are passionate, and because of this their support is excellent. Of the Hybrid dealers here, Scott, 12V electronics, Dave, probably more, they have all been VERY cool to me and treated me kindly. I have no issues with their product and if you like it, then you like it. We are all entitled to our own decisions and opinions.
> 
> ...


Thanks Chad for this follow-up. I was reading this, thinking to myself how now's about the time the dozen or so trolling HAT haters should be here, like all times previous. I appreciate your kind words. Chris Lacomb had many good things to say about you.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Scott Buwalda said:


> Chris Lacomb had many good things to say about you.


He's a really good guy and lives close by. Sometime when we are not standing on black top in 100+ degree temps and not completely sunburnt while I don't have a 6' table worth of shattered tempered glass in my pool and a wife texting me relentlessly about it.... We will get together and really get that thing dialed in. That car has a lot of potential and it won't take much at all to really make it stand out. I need to teach him some software


----------



## audio+civic (Apr 16, 2009)

Andy you are an industry expert. Of course your opinion matters. I am just saying it is like not voting and then bitching about the president. It just seems like this entire post is pointless. Its like arguing the difference between left and right handed masterbation and witch is better. I am just saying actions speak louder than words so let the competition cars speak for them selves.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

audio+civic said:


> Andy you are an industry expert. Of course your opinion matters.


Dude, he works for Harman, like Scott owns Hybrid 



audio+civic said:


> I am just saying it is like not voting and then bitching about the president.


No it's not



audio+civic said:


> It just seems like this entire post is pointless. Its like arguing the difference between left and right handed masterbation and witch is better.


I prefer to sit on my left hand while I start with my right, then after the left hand goes numb I finish off... "the stranger"



audio+civic said:


> I am just saying actions speak louder than words so let the competition cars speak for them selves.


Negative ghost-rider. Unless you have a trailer queen it gets driven every day. What matters to YOU matters most, again, everyone is entitled to an opinion.preference.

I took mine in the lanes for the first time in 20 years, plopped it in there, with MY preference of tuning, I won, but I sit in front of wicked set-up studio monitors every-day and I have a reference. Fortunately the judge liked what I sit in front of every day and/or my representation of that, I could get BLASTED by another judge, and I'm fully aware of that.

You can get off your knees now and wipe that off you chin. I think we came to an understanding earlier.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

vidizzle said:


> i agree the market is saturated hence they win so much..i do like the l4 for its flexibility and dislike thier tweeters
> 
> i would compete if there were competitions even if it is small as a meet in south or central florida but unfortunately there arent atleast not that ive heard of





> you know thats sounds like a pretty good idea henry i mean now that mike and yourself are hookin it up on db drag and iasca events plus usaci is all over the place in FL having meca would make it complete for anyone who might want to venture to other orgs to play!!


I couldn't find one on your street ... but look around there may be something in your state


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

He may be like me, not wanting to drive far... Hence the family thread I indicated to in OT


----------



## vidizzle (May 30, 2008)

well im in miami and i dont mind driving a bit of a distance but nothing ridiculous


----------



## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I used to compete. Does my opinion matter?
> 
> Here's the real deal...speakers don't matter, so long as they don't really suck and so long as the system includes tweeters.


Andy might be right. I won two IASCA Finals using JBL mids and 20 tweeters.


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## audio+civic (Apr 16, 2009)

no **** andy works for jbl and scott owns HAT. I just think this whole discussion is stupid. I have never competed and probably never will.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Someday you will look at a website and say "ahhh **** it, why not?"

I may have had my first in a while, I may have had been my last.

You never know

I'm more of the "pit crew" guy myself to be honest.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

chad said:


> I prefer to sit on my left hand while I start with my right, then after the left hand goes numb I finish off... "the stranger"


LOL!


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I don't think I've competed against a Hybrid car so far this season. May just be the area. Seems most of the cars I'm competing against are running Morel, if anything. I've only been to about 4 shows this year, but honestly can't think of any which have had Hybrid gear. Maybe I just am not aware of the ones that did.

Been a while since I've ran Hybrid gear. I've heard a lot of good things about the L4, from a lot of people; even people who have notoriously shown their distaste for all things 'hybrid'. If it can garner attention from someone with that kind of position, then it's enough to cause me to reconsider trying them again.

As I said months ago in this thread, the thing about Hybrid is their people. Nevermind the speakers. Scott's ALWAYS answered my random e-mails about install ideas and his company has never came into play once, and Jorge is my Mexican brother.  He's Danny, I'm Arnold
Here we are.. just a couple of regular Joes...


----------



## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

audio+civic said:


> Put up or Shut up. If you don't compete than your opinion does not matter.





audio+civic said:


> I have never competed and probably never will.





So why are *you *and *your opinion* here again ?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Ouch.


----------



## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> I don't think I've competed against a Hybrid car so far this season. May just be the area. Seems most of the cars I'm competing against are running Morel, if anything. I've only been to about 4 shows this year, but honestly can't think of any which have had Hybrid gear. Maybe I just am not aware of the ones that did.
> 
> Been a while since I've ran Hybrid gear. I've heard a lot of good things about the L4, from a lot of people; even people who have notoriously shown their distaste for all things 'hybrid'. If it can garner attention from someone with that kind of position, then it's enough to cause me to reconsider trying them again.
> 
> ...


Jorge told us he was much taller and hairier


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Possibly harier. Maybe not taller but the trophies may make him look short


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

OMG we need to photoshop faces onto Danny and Arnold. That'll be the next HAT sell sheet.  Too funny.

Manville, I remember those days. 24 speakers run off of two amplifiers, three if you were lucky.


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## doitor (Aug 16, 2007)

Thanks for the laugh.
Erin, please keep the family pics to yourself.

J.


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

Scott Buwalda said:


> OMG we need to photoshop faces onto Danny and Arnold. That'll be the next HAT sell sheet.  Too funny.
> 
> Manville, I remember those days. 24 speakers run off of two amplifiers, three if you were lucky.


In my case, it was 36 speakers off two amplifiers in my 84 Celica. :laugh:

Eight 8-inch JL Audio 8W3 subs (four isobaric pairs) in 1989, Four 10W5's (two isobaric pairs) in 1990
One pair of MB Quart 130TC coaxials in the back
Four midbass speakers (G&S Redline 4.5-inchers)
Four mids (the aforementioned JBL 2105H's)
Eighteen Audax TW51A tweeters.
Two AudioControl EQX EQ/x-overs
One AudioControl Epicenter
One PPI 2150M two-channel amp bridged to the subs
One PPI 4300M four-channel amp, split to front and rear
Streetwires wiring
Pioneer single DIN CD (1989), Concord single DIN CD (1990)

And, yes it sounded balanced, and clean, and loud.


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

6spdcoupe said:


> So why are *you *and *your opinion* here again ?


Nothing like a virtual ***** slap!!!


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

msmith said:


> In my case, it was 36 speakers off two amplifiers in my 84 Celica. :laugh:
> 
> Eight 8-inch JL Audio 8W3 subs (four isobaric pairs) in 1989, Four 10W5's (two isobaric pairs) in 1990
> One pair of MB Quart 130TC coaxials in the back
> ...


I grew up in S Fl and remember being at the Speaker Warehouse on Commerical Blvd getting a demo in your car, the Mustang and "the Van". Those were some CRAZY installs for the late 80's early 90's and they all sounded AMAZING. 

I had an 89 Escort GT that was designed by Steve ( I think that was his name).

Quart 3 way components 
4 10w5's isobaric in the fiberglass tub
1 ProMos 50
AC EQX's
AC Epicenter
Coustic HU


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> ... but honestly can't think of any which have had Hybrid gear. Maybe I just am not aware of the ones that did.


I am in no way attempting to indicate that my car is representative of any of the Hybrid Team cars, but I'm predominately Hybrid in the GTi you heard at The Vinny (L6+L4). It's got a long way to go yet, but it's come a long way. I'm just thrilled that I didn't show up and have my a3 handed to me in 'the lanes'! Modified seems to be a tough place to start out this year with the likes of Steve and Eric. They're setting the bar _high_.

-Todd


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

didn't realize you were running the L4. I thought you said you had the L6 and tangband ceramics? Maybe I'm delusional (highly probable, haha).

But, yes, I forgot about your L6's. I'm sure there are others running hybrid gear that I've come across this year but you're the only one I can think of now. 

As Chad said, they're strong in the 'midwest' (most inaccurate term ever). I'm sure we'll see plenty of them at Finals.



Scott, I've trademarked that picture. You have to pay royalties to me if you want to put Jorge's face on Danny. Or not. lol.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> didn't realize you were running the L4. I thought you said you had the L6 and tangband ceramics? Maybe I'm delusional (highly probable, haha).
> 
> But, yes, I forgot about your L6's. I'm sure there are others running hybrid gear that I've come across this year but you're the only one I can think of now.


It's likely my fault for making one word out of "I'vegotahybridaudiofrontstagewiththeL6,theL4, <sucks in a breath> andthosesillylookingtangbandceramictweets".

The word that should follow "Highly" in my username is "Caffeinated", but I can't be bothered to type all of that every time I log in .


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

highly said:


> The word that should follow "Highly" in my username is "Caffeinated", but I can't be bothered to type all of that every time I log in .


LOL!
Nice!


Well, I hope to see you soon, man. Do you plan to hit up ESN by any chance? I know it's an insane haul.


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Do you plan to hit up ESN by any chance? I know it's an insane haul.


Can't. I'm a "Featured Competitor" at the local Autofest 2010 that's held the same freaking weekend. IDK WHAT Tony was thinking with that date. 

Oh, and sorry about the threadjack!
Back to your regularly scheduled argument....

-Todd


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

highly said:


> The word that should follow "Highly" in my username is "Caffeinated", but I can't be bothered to type all of that every time I log in .


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

ROFLMAO!

If I did, then my day wouldn't work. I'm up at 430a for work, at work by 530 (flex work hours) till 2, home by 230, tend to the koi and knock out some required chores, make dinner for 430, work on the car/around the house till 7 or 8, spend Quality Time with my wonderful, smart, beautiful and understanding wife till 10, asleep by 11, then do it all over again. If I didn't use all the hours I had to work with then the car would still be waiting for a front stage to get installed...

We loves our caffeine, we does!

-"Highly Caffeinated"

Then there are the OTHER hobbies:
Tending to the 60x40 shop. Big spaces get Real Messy.
Rebuilding an old Bridgeport BOSS CNC mill with servodrives
A 77 Datsun 280Z rocket with L28ET Turbo motor
A 77 Vette for the afformentioned Lovely Wife
Design and development on my Rotary Sub
Keeping up with an acre lot
Other Manly Duties As Assigned...

you know, the little stuff.

Now, <<<ahem!>>>, Back on topic.

Hybrids. The best for every listener in every circumstance? Probably not, but you can't deny that they are dedicated to doing it by the book and making it work for them 'in the lanes'. I like that they share what it takes to make their speakers perform. I feel that when I bought Hybrids, I bought into more than just a raw driver. I paid for that as part of the entry fee, and that helped me justify the money I spent. I like that they keep up with my needs both at a competition and on the drive home with the windows down and my head bobbing. For me, they do the jobs I bought them for, so I am happy with everything about my purchase. YMMV.


----------



## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

It remains to be seen precisely how many cars we'll have at MECA Finals this year, namely because of the pin-head move to put the USACi Finals on the same weekend. We support USACi too - have done very well there in the past in both sound-only and sound-install classes, so we are divided that weekend. If it was not for USACi Finals, we would have had about eight additional cars at MECA. That being said, basically every car coming out of Team American Radio uses Hybrid Audio, as well as several non-Team Hybrids cars, such as Highly's. We have a few folks coming from California too. We'll help them all, as if they were all Team; we'll undoubtedly set-up a T&T somewhere in town before the event. I'll know after ESN what kind of presence we can expect, but it will be better than years past where we had a max of four cars competing.


----------



## jonnyanalog (Nov 14, 2007)

Scott Buwalda said:


> We'll help them all, as if they were all Team; we'll undoubtedly set-up a T&T somewhere in town before the event. I'll know after ESN what kind of presence we can expect, but it will be better than years past where we had a max of four cars competing.


This is what I like about the team. They really help each other in so many ways. I saw pics a few days before the World Finals here in Dallas. They were all helping each other washing, detailing, tuning, and generally having a good time. This is what a team is all about IMO.


----------



## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

been reading this post, the team idea, very cool, while eyeballing that l6 se, off axis sure looks good..may be just the ticket..


----------



## Dillyyo (Feb 15, 2008)

rain27 said:


> So why aren't those that do produce the "best speakers imaginable" proving their worth in the competition scene?
> 
> *Is it like Mayweather refusing to fight Pacquiao in the ring?*


Nah, probably more like Pac not willing to take current standard drug testing for PED use like the world class athletes in the country he represents (congress) have to in order to compete in world competitions. But, I digress


----------



## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

Marketing is why.

And the L6.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

WestCo said:


> Marketing is why.
> 
> And the L6.


1) why did you bring this up from the grave..

2) why do you not like HAT? they make awesome product. yes you do pay a premium, but with how it performs and the customer support, i say its well worth it.

3) second time today i saw you mention the L6 being a good driver, but failed to mention the L6se, L6 carbon, or even its big brother, the L8 and L8se. whys that?


----------



## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

I never ran an L8, I hear it's nice.

I am pretty angry at the company TBH, because I didn't get the quality I thought I was paying for. That's my rational. And my scorn is rightly deserved.

I don't think you get what you pay for with them. I think it's mostly hype and I am attempting to stop the rampant "nut-hugging". They are good drivers, not great drivers. Noobs read these threads and fall in love with how they look and everyone raving about them. For me the L4 se was sharp, and the L1 pro is weird tonally. 

Their mid woofers are great, but again I believe their is better in the price range.

I'd take the drivers in your sig above anything HAT makes, that includes their L6, L8, etc.

Sorry to resurrect this tread, but I was searching for driver reviews and felt I would leave my opinion and quietly walk away. lol


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

WestCo said:


> I never ran an L8, I hear it's nice.
> 
> I am pretty angry at the company TBH, because I didn't get the quality I thought I was paying for. That's my rational. And my scorn is rightly deserved.
> 
> ...


but then again my drivers cost a bit more and i can promise theres little to no customer support behind them compared to hybrid. i actually plan on doing an all hybrid build in my next daily car.


----------



## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

Where does HAT market their speakers?


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> but then again my drivers cost a bit more and i can promise theres little to no customer support behind them compared to hybrid. i actually plan on doing an all hybrid build in my next daily car.


I can put you into contact with some meca winners and they can give you some great driver suggestions, if you'd like.

It's your ride and I can only offer suggestions. All the best with your build.


----------



## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

JVD240 said:


> Where does HAT market their speakers?


It's not about where. It's about the image they try to convey to their customers. 

Look at the drivers themselves. The legatia's are visually stunning. 

Also Scott has had all negative reviews pulled from this site and elsewhere. No, I am not making that up.


----------



## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

I will admit their customer support is nice.

I contacted them one time. No complaints there.


----------



## Sound Suggestions (Dec 5, 2010)

DAT drove me absolutely crazy with his hype comments and now Westco...come on, I ran L3se as widebanders and they were absolutely stunning! Why I sold them.... We'll I don't know, probably should have kept them, I have heard L3, L4se, the 5" clarus...all of them were fantastic. Scott is a true professional that cares about his brand and thru his marketing efforts (trade up programs, guaranteed residual values...what other company offers this? ) it really shows that he cares for both his company and also his clients. 

Congratulations Scott and keep up the good work!


----------



## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

Sound Suggestions said:


> DAT drove me absolutely crazy with his hype comments and now Westco...come on, I ran L3se as widebanders and they were absolutely stunning! Why I sold them.... We'll I don't know, probably should have kept them, I have heard L3, L4se, the 5" clarus...all of them were fantastic. Scott is a true professional that cares about his brand and thru his marketing efforts (trade up programs, guaranteed residual values...what other company offers this? ) it really shows that he cares for both his company and also his clients.
> 
> Congratulations Scott and keep up the good work!


Stunning compared to what?
CDT, sure I'll buy that.


----------



## The Performer (Aug 12, 2012)

I use focal. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

The Performer said:


> I use focal.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


I loved my ps165's for sure. Awesome 2 way set for 300$


----------



## Sound Suggestions (Dec 5, 2010)

Never mind


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

It's all good we have different opinions. I only present a different view point. It's healthy I promise.


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## Sound Suggestions (Dec 5, 2010)

No worries, lots of different folks out there, most too with different opinions


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

WestCo said:


> It's not about where. It's about the image they try to convey to their customers.
> 
> Look at the drivers themselves. The legatia's are visually stunning.
> 
> Also Scott has had all negative reviews pulled from this site and elsewhere. No, I am not making that up.


After I posted I figured that's what you meant. Scott definitely markets his brand as a high end one. I believe he does a good job of it as well.

Never used the products. No desire to... but they still seem pretty highly regarded here. I would think that counts for something.


----------



## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

It does mean something that people generally enjoy the drivers.

I did just had the one bad experience. 

Maybe if I see a set at a yard sale I will poke around with them again if there is time. 

I didn't mean to ruffle everyone's feather's on the subject. And I am respectfully bowing out of the conversation. Just like the all amps sound the same, all source units sound the same, all blah blah sounds the same discussion. I am done with all of it, time to find a nice bottle of whiskey and listen to some tunes.


----------



## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

Drinks and music. Something we can all appreciate!

Enjoy buddy!


----------



## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

JVD240 said:


> Drinks and music. Something we can all appreciate!
> 
> Enjoy buddy!


For sure 
Best part of my day.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

JVD240 said:


> Drinks and music. Something we can all appreciate!
> 
> Enjoy buddy!


not me.. i dont drink :/


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## DonH (Jun 25, 2009)

wholly old thread batman! My .02 here is that HAT dominates the SQ scene because that is HAT's target market! Pick it, stick with it, produce high quality product that your target market loves, and keep doing it! They offer products that are not only visually stunning, but sound amazing. Without HAT and DYN other companies would not have some level to live up to. Im happy that HAT continually dominates the SQ scene as it pushes other companies to produce and provide products that can compete on the same level. If HAT slips up, we will know. also they do a very good job of selecting competitors as well.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I'm interested to see actual testing results of the L3. Anyone knows if they have been measured?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

DonH said:


> wholly old thread batman! My .02 here is that HAT dominates the SQ scene because that is HAT's target market! Pick it, stick with it, produce high quality product that your target market loves, and keep doing it! They offer products that are not only visually stunning, but sound amazing. Without HAT and DYN other companies would not have some level to live up to. Im happy that HAT continually dominates the SQ scene as it pushes other companies to produce and provide products that can compete on the same level. If HAT slips up, we will know. also they do a very good job of selecting competitors as well.


I'm only speaking from my experiences but I put ID's high end components higher up than the hat products I've heard which include the L6SE. I don't know if you knew him but Neel's TL which included an ID front stage with horns and 6x9s (I think, they were oval), along with some ID15s IB which I believe were the older IDQ15s but I might be wrong. I remember something about a very low Qts. Anyway, at that point I was really impressed with ID and I've never had the same wow factor with the HAT products. 

Different people want different things. I want it to be true to the source. Dynaudio's motto of Authentic Fidelity is spot on. For what I want, they deliver better than I thought possible. While I've heard some nice sounding HAT systems, none of them fit my goal. I can see how they would satisfy a lot of people, none of them sounded bad. 

I don't think HAT should be mentioned in the same sentence as Dynaudio though.  I'm joking..... sort of.


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

BuickGN said:


> I'm only speaking from my experiences but I put ID's high end components higher up than the hat products I've heard which include the L6SE. I don't know if you knew him but Neel's TL which included an ID front stage with horns and 6x9s (I think, they were oval), along with some ID15s IB which I believe were the older IDQ15s but I might be wrong. I remember something about a very low Qts. Anyway, at that point I was really impressed with ID and I've never had the same wow factor with the HAT products.
> 
> Different people want different things. I want it to be true to the source. Dynaudio's motto of Authentic Fidelity is spot on. For what I want, they deliver better than I thought possible. While I've heard some nice sounding HAT systems, none of them fit my goal. I can see how they would satisfy a lot of people, none of them sounded bad.
> 
> I don't think HAT should be mentioned in the same sentence as Dynaudio though.  I'm joking..... sort of.


I would love to try a set of dyns...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

The esotar2 series are nice. Didn't care much for those md domes though.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## DBlevel (Oct 6, 2006)

WestCo said:


> I can put you into contact with some meca winners and they can give you some great driver suggestions, if you'd like.
> 
> It's your ride and I can only offer suggestions. All the best with your build.



What can you offer that is better than L4SE?


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

DBlevel said:


> What can you offer that is better than L4SE?


I don't sell drivers, but I would recommend the phd Af 4.1 and the Illusion Audio C4, or how about the Scanspeak illuminator 4'' driver. Just things that I would prefer over the L4SE because they preform better than L4Se's.


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## robtr8 (Dec 6, 2011)

Am I wrong in thinking Scott is responsible for the 3" wideband craze? For me, HAT had the perfect solution in the L6SE Carbons and the L3SEs. The L4SE Carbons are pretty awesome as well. The rest of the line doesn't do that much for me. I'd take an MT-23 over any HAT tweeter and the Imagines are just soul-less. I think it's nuts to praise or condemn the entire lineup.

WestCo, what was the nature of your HAT issue? Product performance (irrespective of cost), product quality, buyers remorse (cost benefit analysis) or customer service?


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

Look yesterday was a bad day, I didn't mean to get anyone up in arms. Especially if they like HAT.

About two years ago I asked a general question on one of the online forums.
"What are the best SQ drivers at any price?"

One of the more popular replies was HAT. So I went out and bought the best HAT drivers produced. I am not going to say that their drivers sound bad. (The tweeter is sub par IMHO there is nothing special there to me.) Anyway, I was expecting drivers like some Dyn audio drivers or something really special; I didn't find that.

It was a huge let down and that I was why I was so filled with rage.
These were supposed to be the "best" drivers made and I found that to not be the case. 

So please spare the noobs who read this the unwarranted enthusiasm for the brand. The L3/L4 is fine, perhaps slightly better than average, L6 is good, the tweeter lacks a lot to be desired. 100% sure they aren't the best drivers out there and no one should be given that impression. 

So yes, it was buyers remorse for me. After that experience I only ask certain people for advice on drivers. 

Again sorry, not trying to insult anyone's setup; I just expected a lot more than I got.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Not to jump into the whole HAT debate, but there is something you have to understand about internet forums. Especially car audio forums. There is a natural ebb and flow that occurs. What is hot one minute (with or without warrant), the next minute is not. From the outside looking in, that seems to be somewhat the case with HAT. 

When you asked your question a couple years ago, HAT was sweeping the forums like wildfire. Their entire brand had full on "forum boner" status for a while. That seems to have waned a bit over the last year or so. Have the products changed? Not much. But apparently perception of the collective has. 

I have my own thoughts on what has changed the collective perspective, but they are just that. My own opinion with absolutely zero insight to the company or facts to back it up.


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

ive always appreciated scotts quick response and input on his drivers. i have never personally ran them but did buy some L6 and L1 Pro R2 at one point for a build that never happened.

there are definite "forum boners" that come and go on this and every other forum im on for my hobbies. 

what i tend to do is weed through the whats hot and see what is being recommended specifically by people are unbiased and knowledgeable.

from that i can say dyn's and scan's are usually at the top of the list for a midrange and tweeter.

illusion seems to be a new popular choice, but for less than the price of a new C6 two way i was able to put together a 3 way im sure will blow them out of the water


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

robtr8 said:


> Am I wrong in thinking Scott is responsible for the 3" wideband craze? For me, HAT had the perfect solution in the L6SE Carbons and the L3SEs. The L4SE Carbons are pretty awesome as well. The rest of the line doesn't do that much for me. I'd take an MT-23 over any HAT tweeter and the Imagines are just soul-less. I think it's nuts to praise or condemn the entire lineup.
> 
> WestCo, what was the nature of your HAT issue? Product performance (irrespective of cost), product quality, buyers remorse (cost benefit analysis) or customer service?


Guys were rockin' widebanders LONGGGGGGGGGGG before HAT came onto the scene. NPDang and others were fond of the Aura units.


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

IMHO HAT have some quite nice drivers in Legatia line, Scott is always willing to help out "little" user, and team consists of dedicated members who are passionate and wants to win.....

The same equipment fever was a few years back in EMMA Europe......DLS had reputation as top Sq brand an more then half comp systems were built with their speakers and amps....then came Pioneer, Bewith.....every few years there is new manufacturer on top who sells their products like a warm bread.....


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Part of me always wanted to try the L6, but, it never ends well when I try highly rated products on forums. Then again, the L6 would have required too many modifications to fit in most of my installs since 2007, so there is that little issue too. As I have aged, I have become lazy. If it doesn't just drop in with a simple baffle, I move on to something else that will drop in with a baffle.

Now for the cost of HAT products, I think the customer service element makes up for a HUGE part of it. Finding companies with good customer service is a rarity these days and I would willingly pay more for a product to obtain good customer service!


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

ChrisB said:


> Part of me always wanted to try the L6, but, it never ends well when I try highly rated products on forums. Then again, the L6 would have required too many modifications to fit in most of my installs since 2007, so there is that little issue too. As I have aged, I have become lazy. If it doesn't just drop in with a simple baffle, I move on to something else that will drop in with a baffle.
> 
> Now for the cost of HAT products, I think the customer service element makes up for a HUGE part of it. Finding companies with good customer service is a rarity these days and I would willingly pay more for a product to obtain good customer service!


True.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

robtr8 said:


> Am I wrong in thinking Scott is responsible for the 3" wideband craze? For me, HAT had the perfect solution in the L6SE Carbons and the L3SEs. The L4SE Carbons are pretty awesome as well. The rest of the line doesn't do that much for me. I'd take an MT-23 over any HAT tweeter and the Imagines are just soul-less. I think it's nuts to praise or condemn the entire lineup.
> 
> WestCo, what was the nature of your HAT issue? Product performance (irrespective of cost), product quality, buyers remorse (cost benefit analysis) or customer service?


IMHO, the 3" wideband craze is due to the wide availability of neodymium that began about fifteen years ago, along with a high demand for small speakers for televisions, laptops, computers, etc.

Basically Scott didn't invent 3" wideband drivers; the demand existed outside of car audio.

I challenge anyone to show me a handful of excellent 3" wideband drivers that existed prior to 2000.

Also, shorting rings helped a lot. It allowed designers to make drivers with low efficiency, high excursion, and low distortion. Shorting rings were quite rare in midranges prior to 2000.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> IMHO, the 3" wideband craze is due to the wide availability of neodymium that began about fifteen years ago, along with a high demand for small speakers for televisions, laptops, computers, etc.
> 
> Basically Scott didn't invent 3" wideband drivers; the demand existed outside of car audio.
> 
> ...



Bose.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

cajunner said:


> Bose.


Except Bose cheated in the past. They used equalization to achieve their sound combined with some fancy enclosure engineering. From what I remember about older Bose speakers, their technology was NOT in the drivers they utilized.


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## canuck (Jan 10, 2014)

I was a hat and arc team member in Canada. if u compete and have a product u sell its only natural to ask other competitors if they would like to be a part of what you have to offer. car audio is a very small group so you know who to buddy up with. no one else is asking regular competitors to use there stuff or offer anything, those days are gone.

in my 7 years no one asked except hat/arc. pretty easy decision when ur not paying full retail.

please correct me, NO ONE ELSE IS INTERESTED IN THE SQ MARKET TO BOTHER TO EVEN SHOW UP AND RECRUIT. NEVER SEEN A REP OTHER THAN SCOTT. HE WILL EVEN TUNE UR CAR IF YOUR ON THE TEAM. BEAT THAT.

this is the real reason. has very little to do with product. take any manufacturers best and you will have a great sounding competitive car. 

surely DSL was doing the same 10 years ago, hat just filled that void. all the big companies do concept cars and never compete its just too much work with no return


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

There are quite a few other brands out there with representation in the competitions scene. You even mentioned being a part of one of those teams (Arc). 

As an aside, I know members of other teams who even help their competitors tune.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

ChrisB said:


> Except Bose cheated in the past. They used equalization to achieve their sound combined with some fancy enclosure engineering. From what I remember about older Bose speakers, their technology was NOT in the drivers they utilized.



and what are we doing in the car?

Bose had some strong, 4.5" "one inch helical voice coil" drivers in their flagship 901's, that they just multiplied the output by 9... wide banders. Rolled edges, huge motors, paper cones.

but then they stepped it up with the little satellites that had the big motors and were wide banders.

if you want to look at who put the small, 3" or under, high output, wide band drivers into the market first, I'd look at those satellites.

And equalization, you say that like it's a bad thing?

I know, it grates to acknowledge bose's research and optimized "dynamic output circuit" or whatever, but isn't that like the Audyssey curve, isn't that like the MS-8 auto-tune in a way?

you had to separate the big floorstander in the home into working parts of a system that included a subwoofer/sat combination, and the high output widebander was the ticket.

If you've never had the pleasure of working with those little bose satellite speakers, you should try it. You might be pleasantly surprised at what you hear.


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## gsdye (Nov 30, 2011)

canuck said:


> I was a hat and arc team member in Canada. if u compete and have a product u sell its only natural to ask other competitors if they would like to be a part of what you have to offer. car audio is a very small group so you know who to buddy up with. no one else is asking regular competitors to use there stuff or offer anything, those days are gone.
> 
> in my 7 years no one asked except hat/arc. pretty easy decision when ur not paying full retail.
> 
> ...


I don't even know where to start looking for HAT in Toronto/GTA area. the two shops I talked to are big into Focal.


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## canuck (Jan 10, 2014)

look into sound solutions, they are out of Toronto


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## Sound Suggestions (Dec 5, 2010)

Sound Solutions is the Canadian distributor (Larry in Lindsay Ontario) he may send you to Custone (I believe that's how it's spelled) they are located in Whitby I believe his name is Richard and there is seductive sound in Oshawa (stephen) I believe he also has access to Hybrid.....hopefully this helps


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

Talk to Stephen at Seductive Sounds - He's very familiar with the products and his a demo car too


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

gsdye said:


> I don't even know where to start looking for HAT in Toronto/GTA area. the two shops I talked to are big into Focal.


Seductive Sounds - Car Audio Installations and Sales

ask for Stephen - Tell him Julian sent you


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## rockin (Sep 13, 2012)

Niebur3 said:


> Also, because winning a sound competition doesn't always mean the car sounds the best, just scores the best... Hell, you can score big in sound quality according to the rules but have a system that sounds like ass.


That is a truism. This should be stickied for eternity. Competitions are about scoring points. That can mean ergonomics, lack of noise, stage width and depth, all of which can be achieved with something that sounds awful.

I don't think that's why HAT is killing it (still) I can attest their product sounds fantastic in a proper install and tune (Jim Myers Pro Car) It sounds good, and scores well. 
I think HAT dominates competitions because of the support. Scott is out there tuning and supporting HAT competitors. He works to win. You can tell the guy is a motivated, intense competitor and is applying all that drive and determination he used to be successful in competition to ensuring his brand is successful by ensuring his team is successful. Its not just at competitions, either. You e mail the co. with a question - you get an answer. FAST. Not a corporate canned reply. You get a personalized, thoughtful response. 
I have to say I'm impressed and wish I had that support at shows!


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

You can score well *in certain sections* with a car that sounds bad but there is still a section about tonality, is there not? If your car sucks tonally you won't win and you sure as hell won't win nationals with a car that gives up that many points. 

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

quality_sound said:


> You can score well *in certain sections* with a car that sounds bad but there is still a section about tonality, is there not? If your car sucks tonally you won't win and you sure as hell won't win nationals with a car that gives up that many points.
> 
> Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


Yeah, I really don't understand those that states one car could win yet sound awful. 
With my horn system, when phase is spot on, when T/A is perfect, the system just blooms with impact, width and depth. The more focussed I get (L & R frequency response levelled), I get a much better and layered soundstage. 

Don't know how you can win without having your tonality dialed in. 

Tonality = everything on the spec sheet spot on IMO/IME 

You can achieve awesome width with out of phase tweeters but that will introduce other problems like a lack of impact or depth. 

Kelvin


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

Friends car was EMMA EU champ a few years back in most demanding Sq class.....to me that car sounded "dark" with no life, no openess in higher registers,......but imaging, staging,placement and depth were spot on....with system set up like that he lost much less points as he would if he had super cool sound and poor staging/imaging/placement/depth.....


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I don't have one in front of me, but I believe the very first sections of the MECA scorecard are for tonality. And I know for a fact that in the event of a tie, the win goes the the competitor with the higher tonality score. 

That being said, I don't think you can be a top competitor in any class without scoring well in all sections of the score card.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

LBaudio said:


> Friends car was EMMA EU champ a few years back in most demanding Sq class.....to me that car sounded "dark" with no life, no openess in higher registers,......but imaging, staging,placement and depth were spot on....with system set up like that he lost much less points as he would if he had super cool sound and poor staging/imaging/placement/depth.....


But as you said, he lost points. On the national lavel you simply can't give up points and win. You can't.



rton20s said:


> I don't have one in front of me, but I believe the very first sections of the MECA scorecard are for tonality. And I know for a fact that in the event of a tie, the win goes the the competitor with the higher tonality score.
> 
> That being said, I don't think you can be a top competitor in any class without scoring well in all sections of the score card.


Exactly.


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