# Are horns really essque??



## mikey7182

There had to be a first thread.  Discuss.


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## sqoverspl

I say yes, low distortion, wide range, and controlled direction


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## fish

Aren't there quite a few competitors out there that have won the big comps with horns? 

While I haven't heard horns myself, I do like the descriptions of their characteristics enough to give them a try.


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## Hillbilly SQ

If installed and tuned right, YES. If not, a baby seal will get clubbed. A proper horn install involves joining the horn body with the underside of the dash.


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## Pad

I've heard a few Selenium horns, they do have qualities, but I don't find them as refined as a good tweeter.


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## English audiophile

I miss seeing USD, Image Dynamics and the late Veritas brands at the shows. I still have a set of USD A7's boxed as new sitting around somewhere.


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## fish

Hillbilly SQ said:


> If installed and tuned right, YES. If not, a baby seal will get clubbed. A proper horn install involves joining the horn body with the underside of the dash.


By this you mean sealing any crevices between the body & dash making it a smooth transition, correct?


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## Mic10is

the way a horn function, it should be flushed with the underdash area or made should be made to make a smooth transition from the mouth to the dash edge.
essentially what happens is the underdash becomes and extension of the horn and itself lends to the radiation pattern...basically the dash becomes part of the horn. so the sound will travel out and upwards with the contours of the dash.

Thats how horns can be mounted under a dash but have a stage height at eye level.

the whole notion of horns having to have special considerations and special tuning done in order to sound good is ridiculous and a carry over from the 90s competition scene.

When guys from speakerworks and then Image Dynamics started doing very well competing, everyone thought the big secret was bc they used horns. so there were alot of attempts by people to just throw horns in their car, treating them like a conventional speakers.
so many ran them well below their usable limits out of ignorance and many other variation of very haphazard installation, hoping that the horns themselves had some magical powers.
the results, like anything thrown together in that manner , was a system that sounded like garbage.
so instead of taking responsibility for their own ignorance, they blamed horns--and horns forever got this stigma of something that needs a massive amount of equalization to sound good and requires a ton of special instruction.

in most cars, I can install a pair of horns and have it playing before finishing a pair of kick panels or even pillar panels.


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## cubdenno

They are no more or no less "ESSQUE" then any other component utilized correctly.


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## req

horns are cool.


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## Eric Stevens

Horns are SQ, horns are efficient with high power handling, so they are also SQL.

AS Mic said they aren't hard to install when compared to other locations that yield good imaging results, and all they need is to be level matched, proper crossover and phase and they are as good as any high end component set before it receives further equalization to correct for problems caused by the environment.


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## subwoofery

fish said:


> By this you mean sealing any crevices between the body & dash making it a smooth transition, correct?


If you can just glass it so that it shows a smooth transition OR use colored duct tape (to match the interior) - I did and it works :blush: lol 

Kelvin


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## greywarden

Google "E-Wave" there's lots of high end speakers that use horns.


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## lancewhitefield

Great information guys - I am currently installing my first set of the ID minis


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## Diezel10

Gents....I know this might sound bias but...I tried various speaker configurations and after Matt at ID introduced me to Horns he was correct after you hear a set of properlytuned horns you will never listen to music the same.....he was right.

Alex in Chino
07 Dodge Quad Cab


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## req

Eric Stevens said:


> Horns are SQ


Eric, 

Seeing as you are around, and a moderator to boot (thats awesome by the way)

the picture above is my horn install, is there anything you would like to comment on in the pictures that you see? anything i should do to make it better? 

:surprised:


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## raamaudio

After all these years I finally installed my first set, full size with the inboard ends of the throats rounded off a bit to ensure proper clearance for the brakes, etc...ok'ed by Eric...

The hard part was the physical energy I spend moving the whole parking brake mechanism up, forward and out 1.25", the rest was pretty simple but I have them flushed, wide as possible, etc...

Tuning, they need a bit more tweaking but just setting a basic starting point of 800 Hz, 24db, then dropping down the 2.5-3.15kz region a bit, bringing up the 16kz a tad, simply amazing sounding. 

Being very dynamic they also play well at all listening levels, the imaging stays put, etc....far easier install than anything else good I have ever done and only one sounded even close to this good but cost almost 10 times more to do it and took 10 times longer!

I love horns, now going to see if I can fit some in the Vette

About time for me to do this, I have had Edgarhorns in my home system for many years now.

Rick


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## subwoofery

raamaudio said:


> After all these years I finally installed my first set, full size with the inboard ends of the throats rounded off a bit to ensure proper clearance for the brakes, etc...ok'ed by Eric...
> 
> The hard part was the physical energy I spend moving the whole parking brake mechanism up, forward and out 1.25", the rest was pretty simple but I have them flushed, wide as possible, etc...
> 
> Tuning, they need a bit more tweaking but just setting a basic starting point of 800 Hz, 24db, then dropping down the 2.5-3.15kz region a bit, bringing up the 16kz a tad, simply amazing sounding.
> 
> Being very dynamic they also play well at all listening levels, the imaging stays put, etc....far easier install than anything else good I have ever done and only one sounded even close to this good but cost almost 10 times more to do it and took 10 times longer!
> 
> I love horns, now going to see if I can fit some in the Vette
> 
> About time for me to do this, I have had Edgarhorns in my home system for many years now.
> 
> Rick


Good thread for reference. 

Kelvin


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## BigRed

The only car I've heard where the stage was at eye level with horns is Erics's sable way back in the day. All the others, it was at dash level or below


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## Eric Stevens

req said:


> Eric,
> 
> Seeing as you are around, and a moderator to boot (thats awesome by the way)
> 
> the picture above is my horn install, is there anything you would like to comment on in the pictures that you see? anything i should do to make it better?
> 
> :surprised:


Not seeing enough to make any serious comments, but it looks like you could move them back under the dash further. No need to have them at the edge where the dash turns upward. 

Path length difference is king and moving them father back improves pld.


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## Eric Stevens

BigRed said:


> The only car I've heard where the stage was at eye level with horns is Erics's sable way back in the day. All the others, it was at dash level or below


I have heard many that actually staged as high and many higher, few have had the overall sound of the Sable though.

Eric


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## BigRed

yeah, that sable was something else. the best i've heard recently was Aubrey's 300 at finals in 2009


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## mikey7182

Eric Stevens said:


> Not seeing enough to make any serious comments, but it looks like you could move them back under the dash further. No need to have them at the edge where the dash turns upward.
> 
> Path length difference is king and moving them father back improves pld.


I may have been doing this "wrong" for awhile now. For some reason, I thought the edge of the mouth was supposed to be flush with where the dash starts to roll up... probably since the majority of installs I've seen are done this way (more than likely due to space limitations). I have probably 5-6" more depth under my current dash that I could move the horns back. You're saying I should go for it?


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## Horsemanwill

yes you should


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## nextproject

Eric... or anyone one thats had horn experience... 
I have fender space restrictions so i can go decently wide or compromise to go further back so do you have any input on which is higher on the priority list?
(My equipment is much better than my tuning and install ability)
Cds minis with the 90 degree mount (radian full body hlcds)
6 1/2's in the doors
Pdx-5 amp(will getclass ab when i get some money)
Rane ac23
Rane me30's

Yes i have been reading and not really posting... i gnorantly signed up for diyma thinking i could really help people but the more i read the more im thinking im the village idiot in this group
By the way.. i have learned a LOT from here and i cant wait to be more self reliant in tuning
I have way too many knobs and sliders and seem to be spinning my wheels

I am considering selling the ranes and using the ms-8 but i am trying to learn to set up on my own but slowly doubting my ability to get there... 

Anyways... love this forum and thanks!


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## fish

mikey7182 said:


> I may have been doing this "wrong" for awhile now. For some reason, I thought the edge of the mouth was supposed to be flush with where the dash starts to roll up... probably since the majority of installs I've seen are done this way (more than likely due to space limitations). I have probably 5-6" more depth under my current dash that I could move the horns back. You're saying I should go for it?


I meant to ask this same question, as I thought it made since to mount them like you have them to make a smooth transition. I guess not.


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## tRidiot

I'd like to know more about mounting farther back... I'll be putting some Comp2 Ultras in my Tahoe soon and also thought I should mount the lip at the edge of where the dash turns upward. 

Eric, is it just a matter of trial and error? Should I do a "temporary mount" first and try them in different locations for a week at a time, i.e., deeper and shallower under the dash? Maybe I can avoid having to relocate my parking brake...


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## subwoofery

tRidiot said:


> I'd like to know more about mounting farther back... I'll be putting some Comp2 Ultras in my Tahoe soon and also thought I should mount the lip at the edge of where the dash turns upward.
> 
> Eric, is it just a matter of trial and error? Should I do a "temporary mount" first and try them in different locations for a week at a time, i.e., deeper and shallower under the dash? Maybe I can avoid having to relocate my parking brake...


2 reasons to make install those deeper: Minimize PLD and to have a deeper soundstage. 
Mount them as deep as possible and as wide as possible. Don't worry about the lip at the edge (that is mostly cosmetic). 
However, if I'm not mistaken, it is installed to deep if you don't see the driver horn from the passenger's seat ; and vice versa. Reason why you need to install them as wide as possible too. 
Another "rule" would be to install them on the same plane vertically and horizontally 

I haven't been installing enough horns to be a pro but I feel that horns is a driver that doesn't need trial and error when installing. 

Kelvin


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## Mic10is

This is from my previous Install that Won MECA Finals.

view of dash--notice horns are not visible









Horns sit basically against the firewall. compression driver sits inside the inner fender. the outside horn mouth is 3/8" from the inner fender, which is physically outside the Apillar









Driver side view. This pic is taken from seat level and horns still are not visible









Taken from below seat level so horn is actually visible


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## Jeremy M

is that the trophy u won in the background ?


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## Mic10is

nope thats some random trophy that never made it into the house, it may even be one of my wife's....
majority of my trophies are all disassembled bc I didnt have enough space for them.

Big Trophies may seem really cool to alot of people, and visually they look cool--but they can be a major PITA in the end

You know how big a pain in the ass it is to haul a 6' trophy home from Kansas city or Nashville and drive 12hours?


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## nextproject

Wow!... nice!... on that note i am going to have to go lay under my dash for a couple hours with a flashlight and see how far up and away i can get my minis... too cool


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## fish

Damn those are deep & wide. 

I see you covered everything in fabric. I'm not competing so I wouldn't go all out & get a dash mat, but is it advised to put something over the plastic on the sides of the center console? Like more so underneath the dash?


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## Mic10is

There is a "filler" panel between the horn and the dash panel, so I maintain the transition from the horn mouth and the dash. its covered in a thin layer of a suede type material. Its actually a suede grill cloth. you dont want a thick soft material bc it will absorb higher freqs, but something very thin, can help reduce some peaks.

when using mini horns in a vehicle with a large center console, its advisable to cover the console side to break up the reflections.
Mini horns have a very hard crossfiring flare to help with the center image. a "probem" is that it fires directly into center consoles and you can get a reflection, so it makes your stage seem narrower than it actually is.
for my car, I took an idea from Joe Amore's old prelude that Eric at ID recommended and made acoustic panels for the side. mine are covered in 2" acoustic pyramid foam, and then covered in the same matching suede material in the rest of the vehicle.

Dash mat is custom made, by making a fiberglass mold of the dash. then a layer of headliner material, thick trunk liner and then covered in the same suede material.

They arent visible, but I made absorbing panels for my door map pockets as well to break up and absorb any reflections off the door panels, which can also be a problem.


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## fish

Thanks Mic, VERY helpful. I'll resort back to this post when the install becomes a reality.

While we're on the subject, is there anything else you can think of to remember while installing horns - minihorns to be more specific?


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## Mic10is

just lil tweaky stuff. like wipe the whole horn down with acetone to take the film off it, then sand all the mold markings down, especially inside the horn mouth. then go through and resand it all down with higher grit papers to make it silkly smooth.
Ive also always sanded the entry hole down so its nice and smooth and free of any voids or marks from the mold process.


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## W8 a minute

That horn install goes against everything I thought I knew about soundwaves and acoustics. Amazing.


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## BowDown

Mic10is said:


> This is from my previous Install that Won MECA Finals.
> 
> view of dash--notice horns are not visible


Wow that's a fuzzy dash!

What's in the pillars?


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## Patrick Bateman

tRidiot said:


> I'd like to know more about mounting farther back... I'll be putting some Comp2 Ultras in my Tahoe soon and also thought I should mount the lip at the edge of where the dash turns upward.
> 
> Eric, is it just a matter of trial and error? Should I do a "temporary mount" first and try them in different locations for a week at a time, i.e., deeper and shallower under the dash? Maybe I can avoid having to relocate my parking brake...


The vertical directivity of car audio horns is really wonky in the vertical axis. So as you push them back further and further you'll likely have to tilt the body up a bit or else the horns will sound "dark".

Everything else being equal, you generally want them further back.

But there's lots of things you can do to improve upon the situation, if you can't mount them back very far:


Treatment of the horn mouth makes the horn sound more "laid back" by reducing diffraction. It also improves the off-axis response. If you REALLY go crazy with the mouth treatment, it makes it more difficult to pinpoint where the speakers are. Basically diffraction at the mouth generates sound, and that gives away the location of the speakers. So everything that you can do to minimize diffraction will have audible benefits. It is also very inexpensive. Google "diyaudio homster" for my thread on it.
crosstalk cancellation does a lovely job of pushing back the soundstage, and can make up for a less than optimum waveguide location.


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## jimbno1

This is great information. Thanks guys! 

So if the horns don't necessarily need to be line of site what about the midbass? I am looking at my firewall but the passenger side would probably not be LOS either. And I have a pretty massive center console to further block the sound.


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## Mic10is

BowDown said:


> Wow that's a fuzzy dash!
> 
> What's in the pillars?


custom fiberglass dash pad covered in suede.
everything else covered in suede to match and break up reflections.


Pillars, have part of a Genesis D1 tweeter for visual listening


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## DanMan

"Visual listening". Did you coin that term or is it common amongst competitors?

Either way, I like it.


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## Mic10is

lots of different ways to say it, i just made that one up


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## subwoofery

It's like Matt told me, he wanted to make a demo car for CES with dash pods with a 5" mid + tweet - have people listen for the car and at the end of the session, take the pods out and watch their faces lol 

Kelvin


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## req

LOL,

i call it psycho-acoustics! 

i have "tweeters" as well in my sail panels that people thing i use hehe. 

sweet pics Mic, ill be trying to get mine as close to that as i can. thanks a ton!!


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## frankmehta

I just got a set installed in my Ford.
Here's a few photos. Any changes you guys would recommend in terms of position?


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## req

for one, the steering wheel is on the wrong side.

other than that - i would be concerned that they are not parallel with the floor. they look to be angled toward the roof. from what i gather in matt bogardts videos and what i have read posted by eric stevens and the horn guru's, they should be level with the floor, and plumb with the doors. so nice and square in the car. as far back and as wide from the center as you can get them.


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## subwoofery

frankmehta said:


> I just got a set installed in my Ford.
> Here's a few photos. Any changes you guys would recommend in terms of position?


Is that a truck or not? Coz position is different for a truck... 

Kelvin


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## frankmehta

No it ain't a truck. it's a sedan. It's a Ford Fiesta


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## subwoofery

frankmehta said:


> No it ain't a truck. it's a sedan. It's a Ford Fiesta


Then *Req*'s recommendations are accurate... 

Kelvin


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## treylittlefield

What is different for a truck then?

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## subwoofery

treylittlefield said:


> What is different for a truck then?
> 
> Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


Trucks being so wide and you sitting so high (and close), the horns should be installed as wide as your far knee - Driver's side : Left side of the horn should be in front of your left knee 
^ that is in order to create a solid center stage in a truck 

Kelvin


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## scoott

subwoofery said:


> Trucks being so wide and you sitting so high (and close), the horns should be installed as wide as your far knee - Driver's side : Left side of the horn should be in front of your left knee
> ^ that is in order to create a solid center stage in a truck
> 
> Kelvin


 So how wide should passenger's horn be set? Far right, or match the driver's side location?


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## subwoofery

Pretty much match the driver's side location... 

Kelvin


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## Mic10is

regardless of the vehicle, I mount the horns as wide and as deep under the dash as possible. moving them closer to the center may help with obtaining a center image easier but kills your width.


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## Diezel10

I've been following this thread and many others.......I am having issues fitting the horns in my truck......what I am thinking is taking that dash out and begin cutting.


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## Eric Stevens

In full size pick ups the rule of thumb it is as described by Kelvin.

If you go far L+R the listeners can end up in the stronger crossfire output axis of the nearest horn. It is a balance of center image focus versus maximum stage width.

Eric


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## Broshi

req said:


> horns are cool.


Fck yeah for the Mk4 install!! Can't wait to do it on my '00 Jetta! UGH!!


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## edzyy

horns were the best thing to ever happen to my ears

I'll never go back to conventional car audio speakers.


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## ripready

I really wanted them in the 90's but couldn't afford them. Went with kickpods, 8" woofers in the doors and pillar mounted tweeters. The installer (who was a HLCD enthusiast and had a showcar with a similar setup to Richard Clark's Grand National) soon after installing my equipment tore all the equipment out and decided to do a similar setup. Who knows if he was planning to do it anyways or decided he liked a more conventional setup better.


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## DonH

ripready said:


> I really wanted them in the 90's but couldn't afford them. Went with kickpods, 8" woofers in the doors and pillar mounted tweeters. The installer (who was a HLCD enthusiast and had a showcar with a similar setup to Richard Clark's Grand National) soon after installing my equipment tore all the equipment out and decided to do a similar setup. Who knows if he was planning to do it anyways or decided he liked a more conventional setup better.


They are actually really affordable now if you can find them and compare to the prices of "high end" tweeters. I have two sets of NIB never used mini's including the drivers... still have not gotten around to doing a proper install with them just for the fact that i dont want to ruin the brand new feeling of them


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## ripready

If I remember correctly, it was so expensive because you needed a 1/3 octave EQ to tune them and time alignment correction. Is this still the case?


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## Horsemanwill

i use the processing in my p99rs. just about any new processor will be able to eq/tune horns now adays. before my p99rs i used an Eclipse CD7100


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## req

you can easily find an alpine h701, helix p-dsp, soundstream\ppi DSP, bit-one, miniDSP, arc PS8 etc.

theres a ton of EQ's out there that are more than powerful enough to easily play with the horns... and most people who are looking to put horns in the car will already be looking at a DSP most likely anyway


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## Patrick Bateman

ripready said:


> If I remember correctly, it was so expensive because you needed a 1/3 octave EQ to tune them and time alignment correction. Is this still the case?


Here's how to tune horns for under $100:









1) Get an IMM-6 ($15) from Parts Express. Plugs into your laptop so you can measure your horns.
2) get a copy of Arta $0 If you don't save anything
3) Plug your horn and compression driver into your amp








4) Plug your source into a MiniDSP (about $100 iirc). I'm using an iPad.
5) Now do all your tuning in the MiniDSP. Crossover points, EQ, delay, all of it.

The cool thing is that once you have everything 'dialed in', just plug your MiniDSP into one of those USB adapters that you use to charge your phone. No need for a carPC or any of that nonsense; just save the settings to your MiniDSP and that's it. You don't even need a battery for it, it remembers the settings. (Must have one on the board somewhere?) You can seriously get them *anywhere* now. Target, Wal Mart, I've even seen them at convenience stores.

And you're done. Use your iPhone or iPad as a source, miniDSP to do the filtering, and now you have an entire system that's seperate from your 'stock' stereo.


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## cajunner

you could "rough and radical" it by just putting 6Khz capacitors on the horns using separate amp channels to adjust gain level, and using whatever high/low/midrange equalization is available in the deck?

I've seen it said...


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## ripready

Now that MiniDSP looks very interesting. Wonder how much noise, if any, it would introduce into the system?


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## chevbowtie22

I'm using a miniDSP with my horns and I have 0 noise. IMO its really hard to beat for the price.


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## Patrick Bateman

ripready said:


> Now that MiniDSP looks very interesting. Wonder how much noise, if any, it would introduce into the system?


An interesting question!

When connected to my laptop, *the noise is significant.*
When connected to my iPad, it's unnoticeable.

One 'tweako' idea I've had is running the whole thing off of batteries. I probably won't do this, but it wouldn't be hard. Parts Express has a bunch of Class D and Class T amps on circuit boards, and since the power draw is tiny, *I wouldn't be surprised if you could run the midrange, tweeters and crossovers off batteries.*

It would look something like this:

1) four AA batteries provide 4.8v for the miniDSP
2) 20 AA batteries provide 24v for a four channel amp like this : 4x100W @ 4 Ohm TK2050 Class-T Audio Amplifier Board Only | 320-335
3) iPad, iPhone or Android as source

Ideally you'd want to run the sub off of batteries too, but that's trickier. At the least you could put an inline filter on the connection to the amp, which (might) keep noise from the subwoofer side out of the midrange and tweeter side.

Again, this is probably a bit of silliness, but I *do* find that a really quiet noise floor makes a stereo sound A LOT better.


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## cajunner

Patrick Bateman said:


> An interesting question!
> 
> When connected to my laptop, *the noise is significant.*
> When connected to my iPad, it's unnoticeable.
> 
> One 'tweako' idea I've had is running the whole thing off of batteries. I probably won't do this, but it wouldn't be hard. Parts Express has a bunch of Class D and Class T amps on circuit boards, and since the power draw is tiny, *I wouldn't be surprised if you could run the midrange, tweeters and crossovers off batteries.*
> 
> It would look something like this:
> 
> 1) four AA batteries provide 4.8v for the miniDSP
> 2) 20 AA batteries provide 24v for a four channel amp like this : 4x100W @ 4 Ohm TK2050 Class-T Audio Amplifier Board Only | 320-335
> 3) iPad, iPhone or Android as source
> 
> Ideally you'd want to run the sub off of batteries too, but that's trickier. At the least you could put an inline filter on the connection to the amp, which (might) keep noise from the subwoofer side out of the midrange and tweeter side.
> 
> Again, this is probably a bit of silliness, but I *do* find that a really quiet noise floor makes a stereo sound A LOT better.


what the difference?

the laptop is plugged into a charger, the iPad is plugged into a charger, maybe it's the charger?

I don't understand, unless you're saying that running off of batteries isolates you from the vehicle noise, and using the laptop you have to stay on a charger whereas the iPad can float for a while?

I think you're saying that to stay quiet coming out of the miniDSP you have to stay quiet going into it?


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## ripready

Yes I've heard the same thing with noise issues. I think it really depends on the design of the laptop and the sound card. Some perform better than others.

On a sort of unrelated note, I did change out my alternator with another used part and I think the diode is bad or dying in it. Whenever I connect a device using 12V car power, there is a massive amount of noise. If I unplug it, and use the device off of its battery, no more noise.

Noise gremlins are everywhere especially when things aren't built specifically for the car environment.


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## jpeezy

You r going to need isolated and regulated 12v to 4.8 v power supply, as well as a 12v to 24v power supply.parts express as well as a few others, should have what u need, the 4.8 is USB , several companies make those as well. Don't ***** on quality of the power supplies. Good luck!


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## cajunner

oh. so the noise in the laptop is bad, in comparison to the iPad and that's probably how it is with laptops and tablets. With a laptop you could run a USB sound card and have it outside of the motherboard, but maybe that would just add complexity. I was looking at desktop motherboards the other day and found one stating audiophile quality specs and parts.

good A/D converters, high bit 192 samples and high output op amps. Like 118 db S/N, off the motherboard!

is that possible to do inside a desktop, right there next to the big switching power supply and surrounded by 12V wiring, etc.?


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## ripready

Over a decade ago I had a desktop computer in my truck and ran an analog signal and there was a minimal trace of noise. I haven't used any of the new sound cards lately to see how well they are shielded. However, everything I found on the web seems to indicate you want to try and go digital out from your source as an analogue signal can be noisy. I think someone with a laptop went from USB audio -> optical. But I also think if you have an HDMI or Displayport video out on your laptop, there is a optical signal there as well. All you need is a splitter that will split the audio and video signals like one of these: RCA Optical Audio AV Cable Adapter for Xbox 360 HDMI Home Theater System | eBay

Oddly enough these mini dsp guys are in Hong Kong and I spend most of my time in Hong Kong. Maybe I'll stop by and see what they have.


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## Patrick Bateman

cajunner said:


> what the difference?
> 
> the laptop is plugged into a charger, the iPad is plugged into a charger, maybe it's the charger?
> 
> I don't understand, unless you're saying that running off of batteries isolates you from the vehicle noise, and using the laptop you have to stay on a charger whereas the iPad can float for a while?
> 
> I think you're saying that to stay quiet coming out of the miniDSP you have to stay quiet going into it?


Either the laptop power supply or the laptop sound card is noisy.

Running the car system on batteries is probably a bit silly, but we've reached a point where everything but the sub can be run off of batteries. Basically everything but the subwoofer would be completely independent from the rest of the car.


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## roduk

I run Veritas aluminium bodies and B&C drivers and have just made up the old Veritas passive line level EQ listed somewhere else on this forum… WOW!!! If you run horns (especially Veritas I would imagine) get a set of these made up… I also run an Alto UCS Pro but after fitting this little box of tricks I am using ZERO eq on the horns


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## estione

I am guessing this sounds better to you? can you explain a bit more, i have only heard about passive line filter but know nothing about it


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## Patrick Bateman

Compression drivers have a really crazy looking impedance curve. For instance, here's one from a BMS 4528ND. *See how there are multiple peaks and dips?* That makes it really hard to get flat response without resorting to an insanely complex passive network.









Here's the crossover from the Lambda Unity horn, which used the B&C DE25. See on the left side, the passive crossover is ten components? That's due to the crazy impedance curve.

One thing that I do, which works fairly well, is to throw away a bunch of efficiency using resistors. This flattens out the impedance curve enough so that you can get away with simpler crossovers. The downside to this is that it throws power away. This isn't practical for a prosound crossover, because prosound guys don't want to throw power away. But in a car or in the home it's a good solution because fifty watts is more power than you'll ever need for a compression driver in a car, even if there's a couple of resistors in the circuit.

A line level crossover, like the Veritas one pictured above, is another solution. Basically it filters the signal ahead of the amplifier, similar to what an active crossover does, but without going active. (Since the impedance of the head unit and amplifier is constant the filter is simple.)

The downside to a line level crossover is that it requires a dedicated amp channel, just like an active crossover, but you can't create slopes that are high. (I'm too lazy to look it up, but iirc the maximum slope is 6db per octave or 12db per octave.)

By the way, putting a resistor in series with a compression driver increases the high frequency output *and* the low frequency output. You might find this to sound good. You can get the resistors from Radio Shack for $2. If it were me I'd do the following:
1) Buy four 100ohm resistors at Radio Shack ($2 for two.)
2) Put all four in parallel. This creates a 25ohm resistor and multiplies the power handling by four.
3) Put that 25ohm resistor in series with the compression driver. This will increase both the highs and the lows and it flattens out the impedance curve, which is arguably easier on the amplifier.

This also reduces hiss in the compression driver because you just reduced it's sensitivity. This does NOT affect power handling, because there's simply less power going into the compression driver. (IE, sensitivity can go down without reducing maximum SPL or power handling, this is one way to do it.)

If you live by a Fry's Electronics you can accomplish the same thing with a 25ohm 10 watt resistor. (Radio Shack doesn't sell those, but Fry's does.) If you want to screw around with this, get a microphone and try various values. It is also perfectly valid to combine passive networks and active networks; for instance you can use a MiniDSP for digital delay, EQ and crossover, *and* put a passive crossover in series with the compression driver. The reason you'd do this is to flatten the impedance curve and protect against turn-on pops.


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## Jscoyne2

Mic10is said:


> There is a "filler" panel between the horn and the dash panel, so I maintain the transition from the horn mouth and the dash. its covered in a thin layer of a suede type material. Its actually a suede grill cloth. you dont want a thick soft material bc it will absorb higher freqs, but something very thin, can help reduce some peaks.
> 
> when using mini horns in a vehicle with a large center console, its advisable to cover the console side to break up the reflections.
> Mini horns have a very hard crossfiring flare to help with the center image. a "probem" is that it fires directly into center consoles and you can get a reflection, so it makes your stage seem narrower than it actually is.
> for my car, I took an idea from Joe Amore's old prelude that Eric at ID recommended and made acoustic panels for the side. mine are covered in 2" acoustic pyramid foam, and then covered in the same matching suede material in the rest of the vehicle.
> 
> Dash mat is custom made, by making a fiberglass mold of the dash. then a layer of headliner material, thick trunk liner and then covered in the same suede material.
> 
> They arent visible, but I made absorbing panels for my door map pockets as well to break up and absorb any reflections off the door panels, which can also be a problem.


If you have build logs or pics of all this. I'd be super appreciative.


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## whoever

Eric Stevens said:


> In full size pick ups the rule of thumb it is as described by Kelvin.
> 
> If you go far L+R the listeners can end up in the stronger crossfire output axis of the nearest horn. It is a balance of center image focus versus maximum stage width.
> 
> Eric


This is exactly what I was wondering. I have a 2012 Tundra that I would like to put the full size NeoComps in. It’s a wide vehicle. Next I need to figure out if my AudioTechnology Flex 10” woofers will work with them.


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## Eric Stevens

whoever said:


> This is exactly what I was wondering. I have a 2012 Tundra that I would like to put the full size NeoComps in. It’s a wide vehicle. Next I need to figure out if my AudioTechnology Flex 10” woofers will work with them.


The Flex 10 looks like it would work well to about 1000Hz, so yes it should work .


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