# Masconi 8to12dsp (aerospace)



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

So with much hesitation (because I haven’t exactly been the biggest fanboy.....not because of masconi , but only because orca tech support is hands down the worst on earth) I haven’t written a review. However , the aerospace deserves some love.

What this thing does and does absolutely amazing and makes this by far the best traditional dsp made and on the market.

1. It has a sharc on board (why the fir is not unlocked bewildering me such a complete waste of a badass dsp) that needs a unlocked fir bank on each output or at least the 8 “front” channels , for anyone that doesn’t know the adsp sharc is a very awesome floating point dsp. The I-EEE guys probably would think what a waste for not giving us a .bin file to load up or at least a sd slot to load an fir onto the sharc... But we’ll see maybe that can change.

2. The dsp has 1/3oactave parametric eq on the input. Gosh dam that is frikkin awesome. 10ch parametric just isn’t enough and sometimes I like tuning (okay a lot of time) I like to tune witha live rta. It produces the best sound and it’s fast. Live rta tuning is absolutely the way to go in a car , REW auto eq produces boring results and just dosent quote do it for me like live rta does. So hats off to masconi for doing the 30 band. I absolutely love it and it really is the way to go as far as minimum phase eq goes. And it’s 2ch! Having a big 2ch eq that affects all the speakers is the best for room tuning. You don’t want a bunch of small eqs at the outputs as the only means of eq.
Output eq is only for driver specific issues and not room issues. A car is room dominated. With the 8to12dsp no problem there either, peq is a function also on each output stack. So you have that as well. So very nicely done. Just the right amount of dsp where it properly belongs on a dsp.

3. Best of all besides the big 30band input eq that interpolates great is the fact that with the masconi you can cascade filters at every output! This is such a badass feature!
So your tweeters can inherit the phase changes from all other HPFs and the subs can inherit all the LPF in the signal chain and the mid can truly be complimentary. This is almost as good as linear phase....almost. If it only had a fir bank whitch it’s capable of the perfect cascade could be realized. The ability to cascade filters is no small thing to be scoffed at in sq. This is a massive bonus and is a proper way of setting up a dsp. Oh and not to mention it has 1st and 2nd order APF on the fly at each output stack, yeah creating a linear phase transfer function is quite possible in The IIR. Just have to have a little knowledge and your there. This dsp is for the expert tuner and is truly a professional tool.

It also has an additional eq for sub and rears
But the big main eq is over the 1st 8 outputs do you could stack a 4way to that eq if you wanted. Bravo!

This dsp is extremely well thought out, has everything you would ever want. The remote works excellent, the wired remote is sold separately but does sub main volume control and can switch between the 4 presets on the sharc.

Gang this is the dsp you want to go after a Dirac 2ch box like the ddrc22d. If this had a Dirac on board it would be the best dsp on the planet. It’s capable of it with the sharc. Be interesting to see what masconi has planned for the future with a sharc on this dsp.

This kicks a helix square in the ass, and is a very good sounding dsp. Easily one of my favorite pieces of equipment. 

The minidsp 8x12DL and the masconi 8to12dsp are my two top favorite car dsps 
I can’t tell which one I like more , I like them both very much. If I absolutely had to pick one it would be the masconi. Than I would stick a minidsp ddrc22d upstream of it and have by far the best dsp that nothing could come close to and get the best possible flexibility. For a non Dirac dsp the masconi 8to12dsp is a easy choice. It’s that good and that much better


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

I actually thought mosconi was behind in the DSP game. It's surprising to hear that the mosconi sounds better. Thanks for the review!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

Nice review! I must say I have the 8to12 aerospace as soon as it was out there and must say I realy like it, much 
easier to use then many other dsp's and sounds great with great tuning options.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Yeah the UI is black and white and it seemed a little behind the curve. Once I got into it and now that I have a little more of a clue than I did two years ago, it’s actually setup exactly how a dsp should be set up 

It has everything setup with the mindset of inherent phase across a multi-way.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

tonny said:


> Nice review! I must say I have the 8to12 aerospace as soon as it was out there and must say I realy like it, much
> easier to use then many other dsp's and sounds great with great tuning options.


Lmk if you ever want to sell it. 

I’m probably going to have to sell some stuff to get one now. 

I tuned a set of focal M 3ways with one and my goodness it sounded downright amazing


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

oabeieo said:


> Lmk if you ever want to sell it.
> 
> I’m probably going to have to sell some stuff to get one now.
> 
> I tuned a set of focal M 3ways with one and my goodness it sounded downright amazing


hahaha not gone sell it soon... until I find something for a reasonable price that is better.


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## Ratsalad (May 5, 2018)

Oabeieo,

Could you explain what you meant by "So your tweeters can inherit the phase changes from all other HPFs and the subs can inherit all the LPF in the signal chain and the mid can truly be complimentary."? I have a 6to8 Aerospace and would love to improve my tuning skills. As for APF, I've kind of given up on that for now.


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## Ratsalad (May 5, 2018)

OMG, I just realized I was confusing myself. Just stack each LPF or HPF across each channel! Ex: for tweeter, if you have an HPF at 80 for midbass, 300 for mid and 3400 Hz for tweeter, also define each of those on the tweeter.

Going to go try this right now ...


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## cathul (Jul 2, 2018)

As you have to do speaker eq with these filters this leaves little room for speaker correction if using 6 of the 10 available filters for xovers. You basically have a 4-channel peq then for this particular driver (and yes, the 30 band for each side sub/midbass/mid/tweeter). Not counting the upcoming phase correction in the next version of the GUI that let you set phase at crossover for each driver automatically or in 1° steps if wanted/needed.


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

The phase control is already there, only not automated... you can set the allpass filters by hand. 

Use the EQ's in the filter section for the crosover range and do the rest with the overall EQ more then enough that way! also with normal filter setting off 24db you only need 4 slots for high and lowpass... Maybe an allpass filter but that should be it.


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## cathul (Jul 2, 2018)

I know, but they announced something new two days ago on Facebook where Frank Miketta showed the new automated PhaC. Look it up on the Gladen Audio Facebook site.


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

cathul said:


> I know, but they announced something new two days ago on Facebook where Frank Miketta showed the new automated PhaC. Look it up on the Gladen Audio Facebook site.


I know, but what that does is the same as what you can do manualy only takes a lot off know how and time.. and the new function does it with a push on the button... lets hope it works with the old firmware...


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## cathul (Jul 2, 2018)

For the 2nd last revision of the GUI you need firmware > 4.0 on the Aerospace devices.


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

cathul said:


> For the 2nd last revision of the GUI you need firmware > 4.0 on the Aerospace devices.


No it still works on the old firmware, only the new functions in the dsp it self don't... As they say in the video this is only an update in the sofware on the pc so should hopefuly work also on the older fimrware...


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## cathul (Jul 2, 2018)

Mosconi GUI v2.71 and up require firmware > 4.00 according to the Mosconi Gladen website.



GLADEN GERMAN TECHNOLOGY - Software Download


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

cathul said:


> Mosconi GUI v2.71 and up require firmware > 4.00 according to the Mosconi Gladen website.
> 
> 
> 
> GLADEN GERMAN TECHNOLOGY - Software Download


Mine still works with the latest software and the old fimrware at least yesterday, only the newer options from the newest firmware do not work... but I don't need them at the moment.


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

cathul said:


> Mosconi GUI v2.71 and up require firmware > 4.00 according to the Mosconi Gladen website.
> 
> 
> 
> GLADEN GERMAN TECHNOLOGY - Software Download


The new software is out and this phase function does work on the older firmware on the dsp, did not try out how it sounds as my speakers are not in the car at the moment hahaha


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## cathul (Jul 2, 2018)

Nice... am really tempted to get a Mosconi Pico 6|8 DSP as new amp.


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

oabeieo said:


> . Best of all besides the big 30band input eq that interpolates great is the fact that with the masconi you can cascade filters at every output! This is such a badass feature!
> So your tweeters can inherit the phase changes from all other HPFs and the subs can inherit all the LPF in the signal chain and the mid can truly be complimentary. This is almost as good as linear phase....almost. If it only had a fir bank whitch it’s capable of the perfect cascade could be realized. The ability to cascade filters is no small thing to be scoffed at in sq. This is a massive bonus and is a proper way of setting up a dsp. Oh and not to mention it has 1st and 2nd order APF on the fly at each output stack, yeah creating a linear phase transfer function is quite possible in The IIR. Just have to have a little knowledge and your there. This dsp is for the expert tuner and is truly a professional tool.


I'm wondering if the same xover cascading can be accomplished in the MiniDSP 8x12DL by using biquads on the outputs?


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

cathul said:


> As you have to do speaker eq with these filters this leaves little room for speaker correction if using 6 of the 10 available filters for xovers. You basically have a 4-channel peq then for this particular driver (and yes, the 30 band for each side sub/midbass/mid/tweeter). Not counting the upcoming phase correction in the next version of the GUI that let you set phase at crossover for each driver automatically or in 1° steps if wanted/needed.


There’s still plenty of banks to do speaker eq also ..... speaker eq shoyld ol y need one maybe two eqs to only for crossover alignment.... inband eq should be done in main eq (gloabal)


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

tonny said:


> The new software is out and this phase function does work on the older firmware on the dsp, did not try out how it sounds as my speakers are not in the car at the moment hahaha



Oh snap I need to try this


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

It works nice.... all except it only calculates the electrical phase and not the acoustic phase....

So it may or may not work ...


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

oabeieo said:


> It works nice.... all except it only calculates the electrical phase and not the acoustic phase....
> 
> So it may or may not work ...


From my first quick testing with it in the car between mid and high it did work quite good a nice improvment to the ears, in the midbass and sub it did not work perfect yet.... important is to have all speaker outputs in the same phase in the program all on 0 degree or all on 180 degree. 

I did not have the time yet to measure the differences...


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

tonny said:


> From my first quick testing with it in the car between mid and high it did work quite good a nice improvment to the ears, in the midbass and sub it did not work perfect yet.... important is to have all speaker outputs in the same phase in the program all on 0 degree or all on 180 degree.
> 
> I did not have the time yet to measure the differences...



So .... I have a question... I loaded it and played with it for a few minutes 

IF I load it into one of my customer card that’s already tuned with the old , will all the tuning be brought back? And are the saved files interchangeable?


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

oabeieo said:


> So .... I have a question... I loaded it and played with it for a few minutes
> 
> IF I load it into one of my customer card that’s already tuned with the old , will all the tuning be brought back? And are the saved files interchangeable?


You can still use the old program, as this saves the calculated phase change as a normal allpass filter so you can see that in the old software, if you save the tune file on the pc with the new sofware you are not be able to load it in the old program I think...


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

tonny said:


> You can still use the old program, as this saves the calculated phase change as a normal allpass filter so you can see that in the old software, if you save the tune file on the pc with the new sofware you are not be able to load it in the old program I think...


Okay ....

Yeah I played with it a little more today 
The pha c calc works pretty good... I’m having some minor issues with the overall sound in the end. 

The phase changes the response so your going back and forth wiggling it into shape , and it’s good phase response, but imaging seems goofy so far... I’m not used to this yet... I need to try it on a car I know... not a demo board. 

To be continued....


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

oabeieo said:


> Okay ....
> 
> Yeah I played with it a little more today
> The pha c calc works pretty good... I’m having some minor issues with the overall sound in the end.
> ...


I did just use it in my current tune and added the calulated allpass between mid and tweeter and it opend up the stage and made them play together a bit better


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

tonny said:


> I did just use it in my current tune and added the calulated allpass between mid and tweeter and it opend up the stage and made them play together a bit better


But the responce surly had a change that went with the adding of the allpass 

Your now theoretically reinforcing the sum that’s a 6db gain ....(see where I’m goin with that )


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## Ratsalad (May 5, 2018)

Maybe I should post a new thread, but I'll try here first: I am having some trouble setting phase. Also, has anyone noticed issues with inputting settings with the latest software v3.08 x64 under Windows? I am using it with a 6 to 8 Aerospace with firmware 2.80. (Have to schedule appt. to upgrade firmware at my dealer).

I had set delay several times before it finally stuck. And in the filter section it seems intent on setting a certain lowpass filter to 120Hz, even though I have set it to 280Hz more than once.

If I repeat the setting often enough it eventually seems to stick. I think. 

I also can't seem to get PhaC to report consistent phases between two speakers after application of a phase setting at crossover. Things often sound better after applying the phase correction. I think. 

For example, I have the following filter setup with all speakers at 0 degrees phase:

Tweeter HP 3400 (Butterworth 12)
Mid HP 280 (Butterworth 12) LP 3400 (Butterworth 12)
Midbass HP 72 (Butterworth 12) LP 280 (Butterworth 12)
Low shelf +7dB 100Hz
Sub LP 72 (LR-24)
Low shelf +7dB 100Hz

Wow, I went outside to write down this information and the unit disappeared my settings! More accurately it reverted them to their previous values. Ignore the above, these are the current settings:

Tweeter HP 3400 (Butterworth 12)
Mid HP 280 (Butterworth 12) LP 3400 (Butterworth 12)
Midbass HP 72 (LR-24) LP 280 (Butterworth 12)
Low shelf +10dB 100Hz
Sub LP 72 (LR-24)
Low shelf +10dB 100Hz


My procedure for matching phase may be incorrect. This is what I did.

Match midbass to sub at 72 Hz. PhaC reports these values at 72 Hz:

1/2 178
3/4 57
5/6 124
7/8 -215

Apply phase shift matching 5 to 7. Sounds better. PhaC reports new values at 72 Hz:

1/2 178
3/4 57
5/6 84
7/8 -215

Not sure what that means with 124 -> 84 against -215. Difference is 299.

Apply phase shift matching 3 to 5 at 280 Hz:

Before:

1/2 173
3/4 83
5/6 -178
7/8 -338

After:

1/2 173
3/4 -178
5/6 -178
7/8 -338

That one seemed to work the way I'd expect it to.

Apply phase shift matching 1 to 3 at 3400 Hz. This adjustment wasn't allowed (shift too small).

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,
Ratsalad


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

With an dsp with the older firmware it could be not working great with the latest software I did hear more problems about that... 

For the phase calculator to work you should hav all phase setting at 0 degree or all at 180 degree, and start with the lowest crossover first. 

Why do you have all the low shelf filters below 100 hz? boosting that much can't be good for the head room in the dsp and the speakers.


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## Ratsalad (May 5, 2018)

Thank you for the reply. I will get the firmware upgraded. I'm a programmer so I understand cross-version incompatibilities.  I'll also try working from low to high. Thanks for the tip!

I do have everything at 0 degrees at the moment. I read somewhere (probably in this thread) that was recommended for PhaC.

I added the shelf filters because it was recommended in Andy W.'s setup guide at https://testgear.audiofrog.com/wp-c...Process-and-Some-Notes-About-Why-it-Works.pdf. A relatively easy way to get the 10dB boost defined by most house curves without working so hard to get bass up front, sub blending etc... It has worked really well for me about 2 years so far, although for most of that time before my settings were "disappeared" by the 6to8 I actually had them set to 7 dB.

An interesting note: each time I apply phase via allpass everything sounds better. I have this theory that if I keep applying phase over and over eventually I'll have the best sounding system in the world! Just kidding.


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

Start with the PhaC with the low end and only calculate it once other wise you do correction over correction.... 

A better way is to adjust the levels so you have the curve you want instead off boosting so much with an shelf filter, if you boost 10db you also should turn down the levels that much other wise you will go over the 0 db line and at high output you can get klipping.... also on you midbasses it can get to much for the speaker and won't sound right.


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## Ratsalad (May 5, 2018)

I will try that tomorrow, thanks!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

A coworker of mine just got one, and the software looks good...haven't had a chance to play with it yet, but it looks good. Is it a Helix killer?


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

thehatedguy said:


> A coworker of mine just got one, and the software looks good...haven't had a chance to play with it yet, but it looks good. Is it a Helix killer?


It’s a hell of a lot easier than a helix to run
And does everything and has a SHARC 
Killer...... no necessary the helix has virtual channels that you might be able to make a cascade on to inherit the shift 

but being able to cascade filters sure is nice.

would be nice if they had fir opened up and a few important or access to-coefficients


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

The PHAc is IMHO kinda lame ....

all it is is an all pass calculator, the same as helix phase shift except the helix calculator is built in as far as degree adjustments, but the all pass makes the in band great , surebut the stop band is garbage and is detrimental to SQ big time!

it can make certain situations great, like a tundra needs almost 180deg phase shift for the doors to be in phase it’s like 172deg at 80hz

the all pass works good on that , but across all the speakers it’s not a good idea especially if using low order filters

they seriously need to unlock the fir and put it on 8 of the output channels at a minimum

it’s like making a linear phase crossover is a snap , this phac stuff is just nonsense , although useful ,

And the new UI sucks, looses data , won’t store properly, I use phac and try it on different installs , but end up tuning with the old UI and just add the all pass from phac into one of the output filters if I decide it’s needed 

Nice to see u back Jason !


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

oabeieo said:


> The PHAc is IMHO kinda lame ....
> 
> all it is is an all pass calculator, the same as helix phase shift except the helix calculator is built in as far as degree adjustments, but the all pass makes the in band great , surebut the stop band is garbage and is detrimental to SQ big time!
> 
> ...


If you still have the older dsp's with the older firmware best is to use the software for it as the new software has bugs on the older firmware.... and also the otherway around so new firmware and old software will not work. 

The firmware update can only be done at the distributor.... or at Mosconi it self. 

I am also still using the old firm and software and works best for me, did play a bit with the new software but don't like it as much....


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

oabeieo said:


> It’s a hell of a lot easier than a helix to run
> And does everything and has a SHARC
> Killer...... no necessary the helix has virtual channels that you might be able to make a cascade on to inherit the shift
> 
> ...


I really don’t get your fascination with stacking crossovers, they will only make any odds where the drivers cross, so applying a midbass high pass to some tweeters will make no odds whatsoever at each crossover you induce a delay... but that’s speaker to speaker and it always passes through the line of the phase if it was one single driver playing the exact same but with no phase shifts between drivers, each crossover advances or retards the phase by varying amounts depending on order so from tweeter to sub your phase shift will be identical from end to end with or without crossovers, plus delays can be set differently on different drivers so to me it offers zero advantages over a simple single crossover on the bottom end of the tweeter... put basically if the drivers not effectively playing it won’t make any odds to the overall phase


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Ratsalad said:


> Maybe I should post a new thread, but I'll try here first: I am having some trouble setting phase. Also, has anyone noticed issues with inputting settings with the latest software v3.08 x64 under Windows? I am using it with a 6 to 8 Aerospace with firmware 2.80. (Have to schedule appt. to upgrade firmware at my dealer).
> 
> I had set delay several times before it finally stuck. And in the filter section it seems intent on setting a certain lowpass filter to 120Hz, even though I have set it to 280Hz more than once.
> 
> ...





dumdum said:


> I really don’t get your fascination with stacking crossovers, they will only make any odds where the drivers cross, so applying a midbass high pass to some tweeters will make no odds whatsoever at each crossover you induce a delay... but that’s speaker to speaker and it always passes through the line of the phase if it was one single driver playing the exact same but with no phase shifts between drivers, each crossover advances or retards the phase by varying amounts depending on order so from tweeter to sub your phase shift will be identical from end to end with or without crossovers, plus delays can be set differently on different drivers so to me it offers zero advantages over a simple single crossover on the bottom end of the tweeter... put basically if the drivers not effectively playing it won’t make any odds to the overall phase



So I’m going to correct you by giving you a challenge because it’s a lot to explain and I would have to post up screenshots which I simply don’t have time for and I really really do wish I had time to do more of that kind of stuff

So download rephase .....it’s free

open it and just so you can see how much phase is actually moved because by defaultthe response and phase is flat .:.

so make a dip like 3db or a peak let’s say at 1k
Or anywhere you want 10k , the lower in frequency the more the shift 

now add a minimum phase high pass ..... watch the phase n entire spectrum above ,
It will move quite a bit just by adding a high pass at 80hz or so 

make a band pass filer , than add a 2nd high pass at 80 , watch the phase ....

The dip or peak you created, will make it very easy to see the phase line move 

So by adding a high pass to all the driver that have a high pass at the sub to highs intercept all the drivers will inherit the same shift , keeping all the drivers in much more proper time , 

it doesn’t matter ifghat high pass is out of band or not.... it will still move the entirety of the impulse forward or backwards to match

That 80hz or whatever you use crossover has a LOT of phase movement in the spectrum and it even affects tweeters .....

Try it it works! And I can garuntee it will sound more in phase even with no crossover tuning,


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

I will have a look but for me you can artificially add x amount of delay with all pass filters if you wish in the exact same manner as you describe without crossovers... 

Why would you wish to add delay and invoke a time shift when ideally we want it as flat as possible... and the slope of the crossover blends the two drivers together just fine...

You are also assuming the phase in a car is also flat... this throws out your rephase filtering for me when using a processor with our filters... sure if everything was direct sound... but put bluntly in a car it’s not, it’s a million miles away...

I have used all pass filters with great success to match phase wraps and delays due to nulls and reflections but I do this in band so time of arrival of various freqs from each side are coherent... for example I use 4 all pass filters on my passenger side driver to match the delays induced on the drivers side driver


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

So your throwing out things that are technically true but in practice doesn’t quite work as well as we would like or as well as it does theoretically.

adding a 1st or 2nd order all pass will also move things around.... but why would you want to do that ..... sure if your all pass shape is identical or moves the time domain exactly like the filter your putting it up against... than sure ..... but to make it much more simple , just add the same filter to out of band drivers ....it’s an exact match!

an all pass can be very useful, otoh unless it’s an inverse all pass (which requires fir filtering) most of the time (95+%) your left with an artifact in the time domain that can cause severe time problems. Especially in the stop band.

I’m not at all assuming the car has flat phase that would be nonsense. I would suggest reading about minimum phase and non minimum phase to understand the mixed phase environment a little more. The car has a lot of excess phase sure but I’m not even talking about room correction. We still talking electrical phase my dear. The cascade is proven , almost all FOH people that know there trade use it. It works. End of story.

You sound like you’ve done some reading and have applied some of the principles, get rephase and run some sims , it’s an eye opener


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

tonny said:


> If you still have the older dsp's with the older firmware best is to use the software for it as the new software has bugs on the older firmware.... and also the otherway around so new firmware and old software will not work.
> 
> The firmware update can only be done at the distributor.... or at Mosconi it self.
> 
> I am also still using the old firm and software and works best for me, did play a bit with the new software but don't like it as much....


I have upgraded all the firmware and means to upgrade the rom 
I’m using the newest aerospace DSPs


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

wow


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## Ratsalad (May 5, 2018)

tonny said:


> Start with the PhaC with the low end and only calculate it once other wise you do correction over correction....
> 
> A better way is to adjust the levels so you have the curve you want instead off boosting so much with an shelf filter, if you boost 10db you also should turn down the levels that much other wise you will go over the 0 db line and at high output you can get klipping.... also on you midbasses it can get to much for the speaker and won't sound right.


tonny: Wanted to update you on this. At first I was skeptical but shortly after you posted this message I followed your advice and completely retuned my vehicle. I realized that you were correct: the bass, especially the midbass, was always a bit boomy. I reduced (or maybe eliminated - I can't recall) the shelf filters, changed all crossovers to 12dB (which helped with PhaC tuning) and re-adjusted EQ slowly over time and across many recordings. 

The result? All of those albums that I thought sounded bad in the car now sound reasonably good - the way they do in a decent home stereo at any rate. And the great recordings of course sound great!

And now that I've finally got what I think is the perfect sound I'm realigning the AF GB 4" mid enclosures (installed in the Honda Civic kick panels) and will have to retune from the beginning ... my last install had the GB 40s pointing at the center console a bit too much. Now they will be pointed at the top of the opposite side window.

Thanks for the advice: it led to a new level of "soundmanship" in my vehicle!


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

vactor said:


> wow


It’s actually dumb 
Complete misalignment in stop band... 
in a 4 way 50% +/- of the spectrum is stop band


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

oabeieo said:


> It’s actually dumb
> Complete misalignment in stop band...
> in a 4 way 50% +/- of the spectrum is stop band


can you expand on what you mean? why is it dumb? what would be a better approach? it seems that you can apply the phac analysis to each crossover point down the line??


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

vactor said:


> can you expand on what you mean? why is it dumb? what would be a better approach? it seems that you can apply the phac analysis to each crossover point down the line??


so Phac is just a allpass ..... that’s it
An all pass can either shift phase to 360 or 180 (1st or 2nd order) and it has a slope and a Q just like a crossover, because it is a crossover in a sense. It’s the sum of two filters so all that’s left is the phase shift... 

So if you want to shift an entire passband of phase by a few deg , you can , but .....BUT ..... the stop band would be 2x as twisted amd twisted out of summation.

phac changes the in band but it makes the stop band a mess

it’s okay on one driver here n there but not system wide all crossovers lol it’s garbage


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

oabeieo said:


> so Phac is just a allpass ..... that’s it
> An all pass can either shift phase to 360 or 180 (1st or 2nd order) and it has a slope and a Q just like a crossover, because it is a crossover in a sense. It’s the sum of two filters so all that’s left is the phase shift...
> 
> So if you want to shift an entire passband of phase by a few deg , you can , but .....BUT ..... the stop band would be 2x as twisted amd twisted out of summation.
> ...


so it could be useful in helping solve a phase issue in a speaker pair at frequencies where our hearing / localization is most influenced by phase?


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

vactor said:


> so it could be useful in helping solve a phase issue in a speaker pair at frequencies where our hearing / localization is most influenced by phase?


its just an all pass..... so it’s as beneficial as an all pass

The calculator is a good idea , but they just need to unlock the fir.... and do it that way.

Like on some really wide cars , where there’s a lot of path length difference a single speaker “could” and I mean maybe benefit from an all pass , that depends what frequencies are playing through the speaker and the system design.....


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

not saying it is magic, just saying that as a current DSP, it seems to provide a lot of tools to help make speaker integration better. the calculator helps if one does not have another tool to do the same thing, and i have not seen it on any other products, (often lacking an adjustable all pass filter or phase correction at all). but maybe i was making an adjustable all pass filter with a calculator out to be more than what it is. anyhoo, keep us up on your progress


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Yeah the calculator itself is great !!!

are use the calculator on other DSPs I always try stuff out and when I measure a car sometimes I’ll use an allpass, The most common one I use is first order

Like in an SUV where you sit up right in the door speaker is not far forward, A large percent of those kinds of cars you have to reverse the polarity of the door speaker for the mid range to be proper phase... There’s a better way to do that because if you do that you lose midbass

A simple first order all pass you can match that flip almost perfectly and it’s really easy to measure... A simple frequency dependent window reveals it exactly where you need to put the all pass and it works very very good in situations like that that’s the most common one I do, aside from that I hardly ever use all pass but when you need them they’re handy

And yes like I said the calculator is excellent just as far as getting to know what kind of shift The crossovers are doing electrically

it definitely helps understand what is going on acoustically when you make measurements


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