# Help me plan a $600-$700 system - 6.5 comps, sub and amp/amps



## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

I'm going to be putting a new system into my mazda 3 hatch and I have $600-700 to spend on a set of 6.5 comps, a sub and the amp to run them.
Only thing is I am keeping my stock HU, which means I'll be using a LOC...probably the _PAC AOEM-MAZ2 Mazda Add an Amplifier Adapter_ but a local audio shop guy suggested I get a LC6i which is twice as expensive. Is the LC6i worth it? Do I need it? Will it make a difference? On mazda forums I'm hearing that the stock HU signal is pretty flat and someone people say it's not needed while others suggest using it...

I'm looking for SQ...clear sound, tight accurate bass

I was thinking of a 10" kicker CVR with a zx400.1 and then a set of Polk MM6501 with an Audison LRX 2.250...$60 for the sub, about $200 for the zx400.1, about $200 for the MM6501 and about $300 for the Audison...a little over my budget, but close enough. Could I do better with the money?


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Amazon.com: Phoenix Gold RSD6CS 6-Inch Component Set Speakers: Electronics

Amazon.com: Phoenix Gold RSDC124 12-Inch 4-Ohm Competition Subwoofer: Car Electronics

Amazon.com: Phoenix Gold RSDC104 10-Inch 4-Ohm Competition Subwoofer: Car Electronics

Pick a sub or subs, My son used the RSdC 10's in his Mazda 3 Hatch. for under 200 you can get 2 subs, and a set of really decent components. 

Sundown audio SAZ1000D on sale for 275 shipped from Sundown (listed here on DIYMA as well from Sundown.)

Find a decent used 2 channel or 4 channel amp or find a cheap new one. Put the 10's in a 2 cubed box tuned to 45 if you are interested in rap or 30 if you are gearing more to general music. Both amps should fit in the package tray above the spare in the hatch. Should have no issues with overheating. My son used the sundown amp.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Thanks cub, I'm thinking of using a single 10 because I want it to take up as little space as possible and I don't want things to shake and rattle...just looking for an extra kick.

I don't know anything about Phoenix Gold, but those comps look a bit cheap at $60/pair...they any good? I'm willing to spend $600-700 for the gear...if it's a case of $60 speakers sounding as good as $200 ones, then I'll take the cheaper pair, otherwise I'm looking for sound quality.

Also, I'm here because I don't know what's good and what's not, so I'm looking for specific suggestions for gear that works well together.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

The RSd components, namely the 6 1/2's were listed on here as quite a bargain. They used to be about double the cost but are considered "old" models now. I recommend them whenever possible because they do sound good and very hard to beat bang for buck. The PG subs are also quite nice. Stick the 10 in a cubic foot of space. Run it ported or sealed. The sealed will roll of faster than the ported but with your hatchbacks cabin gain should give you really nice output. Plus very easy to build. OR go ported. A little more difficult to build but worth it in my opinion. 

There are tons of components speakers out there as well as amps. The Eclipse amps are on a close out and you could get a very nice 4 channel and run 2 channels to the front and 2 channels bridged to the sub. 

Here is a partial install thread on the boy's car. Car got totaled last summer. But you get the idea.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-build-logs/45733-little-system-mazda-3-a.html


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Do you have any restrictions on mounting depth for the components?

Have you figured in sound-deadening? It's not a bad way to spend some of the money. And then there's wiring.

I don't know much about the OEM HU adapters or signal processors. I'm figuring someone will know.

There's lots of nice equipment in your budget. But it's good to cover all your bases before throwing out money. Also, are you considering buying any used equipment?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

PG is quite good for the money, especially the RSd line. The RSDc line of subs are amazingly good, and in fact I have a build planned for my brother in law, using a pair of the 12" variety. For the money, I would either go with those, the PPI flat piston subs, or MB Quart. 

I am one of the few to suggest it, but the Kenwood X4R amp is a beast with full processing capability. Which means, of course, you can go fully active. And that means you don't have to mess with components pre-packaged. You can buy speakers outright and "roll your own", exactly like you want it.

BTW, from owning a 2007 Speed3, I can tell you the stock deck SUX. SUX!!! Distortion at 1/3 up the volume knob. Unless they changed it significantly, I would not recommend using it.


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## DaveRulz (Jun 22, 2006)

Bose or non-bose HU? 

If we're talking about the first generation 3, as in my Mazda6, Bose has flat 2v differential balanced outputs. Non-bose has equalization that cannot be bypassed on fronts and rears. It's usable on the fronts, but the rears are very nasty, that is unless all you like is midrange. this may have changed over the years, but I'm fairly certain it holds true through the entire first generation.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

I have an 07 Touring - non Bose. I know that I should really be going with the aftermarket deck, but for the time being, I don't have a security system and want to keep the system as low profile as I can...I've had my system stolen out of a truck some years ago cause some kids were going around the neighborhood looking through windows, saw my alpine mp3 deck (when they first came out) and smashed my window.

I don't know much about sound, so I don't think active xover would be a good idea unless I have someone tune it....I wouldn't know how to set it on my own without some extensive self education

I am planning on running a 4 gauge kit and getting a roll of RamMat for the front doors and trunk area....37.5 sqf should be enough for now, and I'm not including this stuff in this budget as it will be separate.

I don't think there are any mounting restrictions for the speakers...I can make an adapter to give it extra space if needed.

Is that Kenwood X4R going to provide clear sound on the speakers? That's my main requirement for the speaker amp.

As for the HU signal, would an LC6i make a noticeable difference vs. the PAC LOC?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

DaveRulz said:


> Bose or non-bose HU?
> 
> If we're talking about the first generation 3, as in my Mazda6, Bose has flat 2v differential balanced outputs. Non-bose has equalization that cannot be bypassed on fronts and rears. It's usable on the fronts, but the rears are very nasty, that is unless all you like is midrange. this may have changed over the years, but I'm fairly certain it holds true through the entire first generation.



+ for Dave's info. I made the ASS-umption that it was a non-Bose.

(edit...but it looks like I was right)


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> I have an 07 Touring - non Bose. I know that I should really be going with the aftermarket deck, but for the time being, I don't have a security system and want to keep the system as low profile as I can...I've had my system stolen out of a truck some years ago cause some kids were going around the neighborhood looking through windows, saw my alpine mp3 deck (when they first came out) and smashed my window.
> 
> I don't know much about sound, so I don't think active xover would be a good idea unless I have someone tune it....I wouldn't know how to set it on my own without some extensive self education
> 
> ...



Well, self-education is what we do here at DIYMA. So don't let that distract you. Because the differential between woofer and tweeter to your ear will be somewhat large (assuming you install the speakers in the stock locations), then you really should consider an active setup to give you control. 

you can do 6.5" round, but your door skin will mufffle some of the sound. You can EQ this to somewhat normal levels though. You do need to gasket off your speaker from the door skin, to keep errant sound waves from messing around inside the door skin. All doable. 

If using something like the Kenwood X4R, it contains enough EQ power (and crossover, and time delay) to handle the corrections necessary to flatten out the stock HU's crap. A simple quality LOC should suffice to get a signal to the amp. Alternately, you can go with a quality product like the LC6i, or something that can do flattening like the 3sixty.2 (which I had in my "3"), or the Cleansweep. 

The X4R is only mentioned because it contains the processing power most active systems need, but doesn't cost a dime more than a quality amp. So it sits as one of my top suggestions for that reason. Only a standalone processor could do better, IMHO.

Don't forget to grab a bunch of Ensolite. And that spray he sells is pretty good. Do NOT get the non BXT-II stuff. . I can show you horror pictures of what that asphalt-based product looks like after a short while.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

OH, BTW, you can copy a plan I came up with a couple years ago, and use the Stereo Integrity BM sub if you want. It would mean that your trunk would be 100% exactly as stock (read: STEALTH, and fully functional), but you'd need to add about $100 to your budget.

I'll share pics if you think this is a cool idea.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Thanks for the heads up on the non BXT-II mat. What would I do with the Ensolite? Where does it go?


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> OH, BTW, you can copy a plan I came up with a couple years ago, and use the Stereo Integrity BM sub if you want. It would mean that your trunk would be 100% exactly as stock (read: STEALTH, and fully functional), but you'd need to add about $100 to your budget.
> 
> I'll share pics if you think this is a cool idea.


Yeah, let me see the pics. I've been thinking of creating a box around the spare tire area and then creating a false floor over it since I want to keep my spare tire in it's place. As this will be my first time building a box, I'll probably go with a prefab one until I can get this done.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> Yeah, let me see the pics. I've been thinking of creating a box around the spare tire area and then creating a false floor over it since I want to keep my spare tire in it's place. As this will be my first time building a box, I'll probably go with a prefab one until I can get this done.



Eh,..its not so hard. Fiberglass just "happens" as you go.

I just realized that my company has blocked my deviantart account where all my neato pics are. 

What I will do is, when back home after work, I'll get the original files off my main server computer and get them re-uploaded to my backup pic site shutterfly. Then you can gander at them.

IMO, even as a first-timer, you can do it. That's the spirit of DIYMA after all. I mean, if you want to buy a box then by all means do so, but this car looks pretty slick when everything is stealthed in.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Thanks for taking the time to do that. From what I've read about fiberglass, it does not seem very hard, so I'm definitely going to attempt a box once it gets warm out. 

What do you guys think of this setup that someone is suggesting:

Image Dynamics CTX65CS for the comps
CTX65CS - Image Dynamics 6.5" Component Speaker System

Image Dynamics 10" sub
IDQ10V3.D2 - Image Dynamics 10" IDQ Version 3 Subwoofer

MB Quart DSC4125 for the amp
MB QUART DSC4125 1000W 4-Channel Amplifier: VMInnovations.com

This stuff is a bit more expensive then the Phoenix Gold, but it's about $530 for everything, so well within my budget. Am I going to notice an audible difference between the ID stuff and the PG running off the Kenwood X4R?


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## MaxPowers (Oct 25, 2007)

SSA Dcon 10D4/S4 now $115 @SSA
HAT Imagine I6-2 $200 @12v Electronics
SAZ1000D [email protected]
SAX50.4 [email protected]

Total $790
or any decent 2 channel amp and sub amp in classifieds. save some money that way

Win.

Edit: What you posted above looks not bad too.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

The X4R would be for front stage only. Sorry if I left that out, ...that's what active means. one channel of power per speaker. That's so you can control the time delay, crossover point, etc. that each speaker needs to fit the car. 

So, ergo my suggestion to go active, you would then buy speakers that fit your needs, not full component systems. The price would be about $100-150 for your speakers, or less..


So, what you would notice the most of audibly is accurate control of your speakers. The Kenwood amp, like most good amps (and I speak solely of this particular Kenwood amp, mind you), is going to sound pretty much transparent.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Riddle me this:

1. would you prefer a speaker more laid back, or more in your face

2. more clear, or more loud (for the dollar spent, considering to get both, sometimes you spend more $$$)

3. More detail thus more critical of your music, or more pleasant / mellow character

Once you have that essential detail figured out, then we can at least point you in the right direction.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Riddle me this:
> 
> 1. would you prefer a speaker more laid back, or more in your face
> 
> ...


1. Not sure here...don't know what kind of sound these translate to. I do know that I don't like tinny/metallic highs

2. I'd rather have clarity over volume...I don't turn the stereo that loud and I don't want to entertain the neighbors. My audio is barely audible from the outside when you're standing right next to the car with doors closed....and that's me having it turned up. When the windows are down I'd turn it up just to compensate for the wind noise...but that's about it.

3. Probably more mellow. 

I'm really anything but an audiophile...to an extent that I think my stock system sounds decent; sometimes it gets muddy on certain songs and the highs are kind of metallic sounding...other than that it's good.

So really, anything will be an improvement over what I have right now and my only concern is that if I'm spending money, I am willing to spend extra if it means I'll get more clarity out of the system. That's why I'm avoiding the temptation of just going out to Craigslist and buying some cheap gear. Oh, and I can't stand when stuff rattles.

If I decide to not go with the Kenwood amp, what are my options for getting the active xover? I would love to listen to a system to hear the difference phase/timing and different xover settings make, but I don't have much outside of the major chains like Best Buy and Ultimate Electronics. I went to a couple local car audio places and they either don't have their demo boards working, or have high end speakers; one place quoted me $599 for a set of Focals which are about $430 online. I did listen to Alpine SPR-17S which sounded nice, a set of Hertz energy 165 which I liked and a set of Kicker comps which sucked. The car audio guy made it sound like either I get the "crappy" stuff like Alpine SPR which he equated to the lousy sounding Kickers, or I shell out for the Focals and Hertz without anything in the middle. I wish I could find more speakers to listen to...I'd love to check out the ID and PG in person.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

That is very, very good for an explanation. I think I have an idea.

Take a peek at one of two separate drivers, either the Mach5 MLI-65:
MLI-65 [MLI-65] - $27.00 : Mach 5 Audio

OR, 

maybe if they will fit (and there's some room in those doors, but you'll need to measure carefully), the Exodus Anarchy:
DIYCable.com : Intro » Home » Exodus Subwoofers »

Or, get lucky on our classifieds or something for a strong mid-woofer. Then, for a tweeter, let's find you a textile / silk style tweeter with the proper mounting hardware for a clean look in those sill panels or a-pillars.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

SELFMADE had some Hertz tweeters, they were 40 bucks!


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

So what am I gaining by going with separate components and an active setup vs. a matched pair like ID/PG?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

you gain:

better speakers for the money

EQ

crossover control

time delay control (utmost importance here)

increased power handling since no passive crossover means no saturation. System sounds the same as power is added, some crossovers heat up and change their sound a tad. Interesting, actually.

Spend less as long as you have the amp and processing figured out. Speakers physically cost less since you are buying them individually, wherever you want, whatever kind you want.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Ok. What does time delay do? And what about using an xover with the MB Quart DSC4125? For $130 it will feed 500w to the sub...otherwise I will need to find something else for the sub since the Kenwood seems kinda weak on 2 channels.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Pics as promised:


































































Something like that.

The rest of your questions...well I am not going to spoon feed you. ALL questions about time delay, crossovers, pretty much everything about going active have been answered in the forums. Search, read, look around, soak it in.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Pics as promised:
> 
> The rest of your questions...well I am not going to spoon feed you. ALL questions about time delay, crossovers, pretty much everything about going active have been answered in the forums. Search, read, look around, soak it in.


Fair enough, you've been more than helpful, and I really appreciate all your feedback. 
Thanks for the pics...that looks awesome and I was thinking of doing something similar. Is that a setup for a 10 or 12? How tall is it and how much did it raise your floor by?

About crossovers - if I don't go with that Kenwood amp, to be able to replicate the xover functionality of it would I be looking at an expensive sound processor like the 3sixty.2 or could I get by with something cheaper? I'm seeing xovers for about $100 on SonicElectronics.com, but they don't specifically list the time delay...is this something all xovers do, or higher end ones?

I'm really liking the DSC4125 and if I can get the xover/eq functionality for an extra $100-$150, I'd rather go that route.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

If you go with the SI BM sub, you can make this quite shallow. I was going to use a sub inverted in that build since the SI BM was not even in the picture that many years ago. most shallow subs require huge airspace, and that box you are looking at was only good for .65 cubic feet, thereabouts.


If I could build your car, that's exactly what I would do. I'd build either one, or a pair of SI BM subs in the floor, while retaining the factory spare tire. My final build for that vehicle involved pulling the spare out and building a tub, which worked but forced me to stuff the spare in the trunk on long trips. 

You'll find that when you pull the factory trunk parts out, there is a foam spacer that if removed will give you enough room to build this false foor without lifting more than a half-inch over the factory height. Just use matching carpet to get everything to look clean and professional. My carpet was all black, how about yours?

To answer your question about other processors, yes indeed a 3sixty.2 can do it, as can other processors. I'm not vouching that you should buy one, especially for a simple build. But having control over your speakers is paramount. The reason I recommended the X4R is that it has those goodies essentially for free, reducing your running costs.

An external crossover can do a few things for you, but it still can't create the time delay needed for the awkward pathlength differences created by placing the speakers in their stock locations. Processors can though. Like the 3sixty.2, and about 5 other machines.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Ok..now i'm seeing why you like that amp so much.
So with a passive setup I hook up the passive xover to a channel, then the mids and tweets to the xover...so one channel for the pair. With an active setup, would I hookup the mids and tweets to separate channels, so 4 channels for the front speakers?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> Ok..now i'm seeing why you like that amp so much.
> So with a passive setup I hook up the passive xover to a channel, then the mids and tweets to the xover...so one channel for the pair. With an active setup, would I hookup the mids and tweets to separate channels, so 4 channels for the front speakers?



BINGO.

And its not that I like the X4R for anything other than its ability to solve this problem. 

I mean it is a great amp getting solid reviews and has good SQ, that's not a problem. Its just in this situation, where you don't want to put a ton of money into the project (and I can understand that entirely), the factory speaker locations are going to be an issue without some form of time delay between all speakers. Alternately, the Alpine SPX-17PRO components may have enough passive crossover processing power (manual jumpers) to pull this off, but without bi-amping the tweeter can sound a bit "hot", not to mention those components cost a grip. I feel that for the sound you described you want, you can run separate drivers and get exactly the sound you desire. You just need to shop around a bit and find some tweeters that match those MLI-65's I showed you, or perhaps those Anarchy mids if they fit those doors.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Got it. Is there something specific I should look for in tweeters to match them to the mids? I know it should be a textile/silk dome and should handle the watts and should probably have a similar db efficiency as well; anything else I should look for? 

Also, any specific tweets that come to mind?


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Another way to solve this problem is pick up a Clarion 785USB that can handle all the processing, sounds great, but looks ugly as sin so people don't think about stealing it. I actually went ahead and did a really crappy job of mounting mine too so that it looks even uglier. So that people don't steal it. That's my excuse... 

I would actually second the Kenwood x4r if you don't want to buy a headunit though. But there is no need to spend much on an amp. Sundown makes good stuff from what I hear too. Heck, I have a Kicker ZX400.1 mono amp that will power just about any sub you would be looking at, for probably like $125 shipped depending on where you are. 

That being said, there is no shame in running passive components for ease and cheapness, and trying to focus on your install quality and knowledge for the time being. Start simple if you want, and you will probably be back anyway  You can put a ton of work into it the first time trying to get it perfect out of the gates, or you can buy cheap used stuff off here and tinker around until you get something you like. 

I would agree with pretty much all of 4thmeal's gear suggestions up to this point though, especially the ones after you described what you are looking for. Dead on.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Tweeters: 

Really popular, Zaph uses them in like everything: Parts-Express.com:Tang Band 25-1719S 1" Ceramic Dome Tweeter | Tang Band 25-1719S tang band tb speakers dome tweeter ceramic dome hard dome non-metallic dome 

This is the tweeter I will be buying if I ever buy other tweeters: 
Parts-Express.com:Tang Band 25-1166SJ 1" Neodymium Tweeter | tweeter dome tweeter fabric dome neodynium tang band tb speakers 

For tweeter selection you have to make sure that you can safely cross-over the tweeter in it's happy range (for simplicity: happy > Fs * 2) while still keeping the mid crossed within it's happy range (usually an octave or so below roll-off, depending on what that looks like). But from here on out I'm starting to think that like 4thmeal mentioned earlier, everything you're asking can be searched for and has been discussed ad infinum.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I would hunt down that guy with the Hertz tweeters if he's still around.

I would look for a textile, used, quality tweeter on the cheap...with mounting hardware. 

A lot of the Zaph-suggested tweeters would work if it weren't being used in the factory locations. The space you have is quite limited there. I think you need to conserve space, I barely fit a 1" tweeter in my sail panels when I did mine back years ago.

Don't worry about dB efficiency. If you are running active, then adding a little gain to the side of the amp powering the lower efficiency speaker is sufficient. dB efficiency is only important if making passive systems, and there are ways around each issue anyway.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

some ebay digging:

Focal TNK Kevlar Tweeters. Came from the NEW 165KR2 Kit - eBay (item 190371835420 end time Feb-15-10 20:22:39 PST)

Alpine SPX-137R SPX137R Speaker Tweeters LOT of 8 - eBay (item 260547990412 end time Feb-13-10 15:08:05 PST)
(sell the rest, they will go quick)

Image Dynamics NX30 Car Tweeter - eBay (item 130364187577 end time Mar-04-10 19:33:32 PST)
fix the dent, or pull them off and hide them behind the stock panel

Stuff like that.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Awesome. Thank you so much for the help guys. I have a good idea of what I'm doing now - I'm going to buy the sub and it's amp first, and later the Kenwood and the comps...easier on the wallet this way.

So for the sub I'm looking at using the IDQ10V3.D2. I'm willing to sacrifice my spare tire area since I have roadside assistance and can get a tow around the city.

For the amp I'm thinking either the DSC2150 - 600Wx1 or the DSC4125 500Wx2 ($30 more but gives me room to add another sub if I want)

Is there any reason I should get a monoblock like the zx400.1 or the alpine m500 over the DSC?

Also, I ordered a 4 gauge wire kit from radio shack....$24....couldn't resist. Will this be enough to run both of my amps (sub and kenwood) or should I go to a 2 gauge?

Also, at what point do I need to start thinking of the alternator? I'm guessing the stock should be more than enough for the 2 amps.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

You are probably fine w/ 4 gauge. BTW, there's a matching Kenwood X1R if you want to match up exactly. Makes 1200W. About $250.

If you did that, you'd probably want to just run two sets of 4 gauge. BTW, that works extremely well, so don't think you can't.

Otherwise, just one run is sufficient for a much more modest amp. Be advised, the Kenwoods I showed you are K-stat amps, a high efficiency type like class D. so, they draw a lot less amps for their power. The MB Quarts are really powerful but the models you are talking about are A/B amps, so they need a lot of current.


The reason I mention this is that the Mazda 3 has a WEAK alternator and battery. Be careful.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

did you order one of these:

Monster® High-Performance 1000 Watt Connection Kit - RadioShack.com


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> did you order one of these:
> 
> Monster® High-Performance 1000 Watt Connection Kit - RadioShack.com


Yeah, that's the one. I also got 3 spools of their speaker wire. My local car audio shop quoted me 250 for a Scorche 4 gauge kit and I was about to order a Kicker kit for 70 when I saw this.

Looks I need to think about the sub amp a bit...that other Kenwood is too expensive when paired with the sub I'm looking at. I figure the x4r and the comps will be about 350, which leaves me 300-350 for the sub and it's amp...maybe craigslist will solve this problem.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Cool. 

Well think about efficient amps if you are trying to keep it all from unraveling on this vehicle. I had problems pushing class A/B Planet Audio amps in my Speed. 600W sub, and 400W main. with a fullrange class D (ICEpower Pioneer) amp, the draw was much less on the sub and things weren't as strained.

We just have crappy alternators and batteries, so solve those OR lessen the draw with more efficient amps.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Cool.
> 
> Well think about efficient amps if you are trying to keep it all from unraveling on this vehicle. I had problems pushing class A/B Planet Audio amps in my Speed. 600W sub, and 400W main. with a fullrange class D (ICEpower Pioneer) amp, the draw was much less on the sub and things weren't as strained.
> 
> We just have crappy alternators and batteries, so solve those OR lessen the draw with more efficient amps.


I can change the battery, but I would rather keep the alternator stock...I have a 100K warranty on the car and don't want to give the dealer any reason to not honor it.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Yes, changing the battery is a must. But even so, watch the draws. I only say this from experience w/ this one, and my Tribute which has a similar motor, battery, and alternator.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Yeah I'm not sure there's much reason to go to A/B amp vs Class D on a sub amp, especially on a little 4-cylinder engine. Like I said, the Kicker in my sig is for sale  

I would look into a battery too, but I don't think you'd need an upgraded alternator if you stay class D for the sub amp, and aren't running humongous power for the 4-channel. Especially if you can go Kenwood x4r, you should be made in the shade with just a good battery. 

And yeah 4 ga is fine for those amps. There are plenty of voltage-drop calculators online if you want to double-check.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Ok. I'll be looking at one of the D amps then for the sub... Between the zx400.1 and the MRP-D500...is one better quality/cleaner then the other? I may be able to pick up a zx400.1 for $100, or there is someone else selling a D500 locally for about 150.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Your sub doesn't really care.

Just get what suits you. For instance, I have a CEA-2006 rated Blau, puts 500W RMS at 2ohms. Not class D though.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Ok. Do you think I will be able to run the x4r and either an 
Eclipse XA1200
Eclipse XA1200 Mono Subwoofer Amps Car Amplifiers Car Audio Car Audio, Video, & GPS Navigation - Sonic Electronix
or
MB Quart DSC1000
MB Quart DSC 1000.1 (dsc10001) Mono Subwoofer Amps Car Amplifiers Car Audio Car Audio, Video, & GPS Navigation - Sonic Electronix
or the ZX500.1 on the stock alternator without my headlights resembling those of a police car?

If not, then what size amp should I be looking at?

I'm looking to get 500 watts for the sub...I'm thinking of getting either the IDQ10 - dual 2 or dual 4 ohm, or the Phoenix Gold RSDC10 dual 2 or dual 4 ohm...this will depend on the amp I go with.

That Phoenix gold is about 3 times cheaper then the IDQ but since people are saying PG makes quality stuff, I imagine it has good sound quality. Ideally I want to be between $300 and $400 for the sub & amp.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

haha my ZX400.1 benched at 482 @ 2 ohms, so it's not that far off your target if you have a dual 4ohm sub. That MBQuart is 1000W of AB power, probably a little overkill for the subs you are running. I think that's $80 that could be spent elsewhere. 

I don't know anything about the Eclipse, but at least it's Class D. 

I think $300-400 is a little excessive for a sub and amp for your first go-around, especially since you are only doing a single 10. I know folks like to obsess over subwoofers, and I've done it myself, but in all honesty it isn't doing anything that complicated. Match the box to the woofer, and you should be golden.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Dang. I thought that MB Quart was a class D...it was getting late last night when I was looking around.
Thats pretty cool on the zx400...if its that close to 500 I might consider it. I agree about $400 being too much for the sub/amp...I'm just going by what I've been hearing since I don't know the difference between the 100s of subs out there. I just want it to sound clean and precise and people are telling me I need a $200 sub....and those subs are 500/600W RMS so then I need a $200 amp to run them. I would love a cheaper alternative that will give me the desired sound. 

For $100 and under, is that PG the best 10 sub for this price range, or is there something better?


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Look at the link again, or do another search on the MBQ model number. But in the link you posted I saw A/B. 

I may have missed the part where you describe your listening styles, but if I was reading correctly you want "tight, accurate bass" and you have 1 ft^3 to work with. For the money, I can't get away without recommending this sub: 
Parts-Express.comayton RSS265HO-4 10" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 Ohm | subwoofer rss265h0-4 10" subwoofer dayton reference rs sub dayton loudspeaker reference-22008
It's what I run, and there are TONs of threads describing it. But if you have that much space to work with, you can probably do 0.66ft^3 internal volume plus port, and get a sub that is really sweet for really cheap.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

I think it comes down to the law of diminishing returns. Is a $200-$infinity$ sub better than an 80 dollar sub? Possibly at best. It depends on what you are asking it to do regarding power handling, low frequency extension and output. What really comes in to play is the enclosure. Size, design (ported- sealed) and expectations. Lots of people go sealed claiming it's tighter sounding. I suspect that is a midbass effect. The sub is playing the midbass frequencies (say 120-60 hertz)(not saying this is all cases just a suspicion that I have thanks to this website) due to roll off that is usually a bit higher than a ported design. Yes due to cabin gain the sealed plays low. The ported should play lower (if the design is right and meshes with the sub) easier (more efficiently) in car. 

For the 80 bucks there are subs cheaper, but in my experience, the P.G. is an incredible bang for the buck. It plays loud , it plays low. In the right enclosure it is musical, and in an SPL enclosure it moves some air. I think to much time is spent worrying about the sub frequencies. Bass is easy to a point (unless you are going for SPL then things change a bit). Find what works for you. fits the space and your budget and move on to the stuff up front. I can say that I am 99% certain you will not regret the P.G. sub.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

94VG30DE said:


> Look at the link again, or do another search on the MBQ model number. But in the link you posted I saw A/B.
> 
> I may have missed the part where you describe your listening styles, but if I was reading correctly you want "tight, accurate bass" and you have 1 ft^3 to work with. For the money, I can't get away without recommending this sub:
> Parts-Express.comayton RSS265HO-4 10" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 Ohm | subwoofer rss265h0-4 10" subwoofer dayton reference rs sub dayton loudspeaker reference-22008
> It's what I run, and there are TONs of threads describing it. But if you have that much space to work with, you can probably do 0.66ft^3 internal volume plus port, and get a sub that is really sweet for really cheap.


X2^^^^^

This is a very nice sub. Plays well in small enclosures. you can get away with a smaller than normal port area


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Hell, the Dayton 15" HO would fit even better in the Mazda hatch in a spare tire well. That's exactly what I would do. I had 1.8 cubic feet in my spare tire well build. It was 1" taller than the actual floor, and when I was done the factory cover went right over everything. I had a monster sub in my build, the 15" Dayton HO is no sweat. It actually plays higher than most 10's and 12's, due to an extremely low inductance. 

The XA amp is highly efficient, definitely one of the top choices you could make. Alternately, look around for Clarion DPX amps, which are class G/H, extremely efficient, and very good SQ.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

At $120, that Dayton is definitely within the right price range. Both the Dayton and the PG are rated at 600W RMS. I know people say you should overpower rather than underpower the sub, so what kind of power can I safely run it with?

And the more important question - can I run the x4r and something like the Eclipse XA1200 with my stock alternator without my headlights going crazy?


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

fourthmeal said:


> The XA amp is highly efficient, definitely one of the top choices you could make. Alternately, look around for Clarion DPX amps, which are class G/H, extremely efficient, and very good SQ.


Yeah I forgot about the Clarion G/H class amps. I have heard pretty good things. 



Smokin7 said:


> At $120, that Dayton is definitely within the right price range. Both the Dayton and the PG are rated at 600W RMS. I know people say you should overpower rather than underpower the sub, so what kind of power can I safely run it with?
> 
> And the more important question - can I run the x4r and something like the Eclipse XA1200 with my stock alternator without my headlights going crazy?


"Overpowering" is generally called headroom if your gains are tuned correctly  
But I have mine running at 400W from a Alpine MRD-M605 right now, and it seems to be happy. But I am running that amp ball-to-the-wall too, so it is getting everything that that amp can push. 

No idea on the headlight dimming query. I don't have a Mazda 3 to try it out on. Seems like there would be ways around that though (Big 3, bigger battery, etc).


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Yeah, the XA or Clarion would be perfectly fine, very efficient and small as well. The X4R is also a small digital amp, so you'll probably like that very much. If you want, run 2 runs of 4 gauge to those amps, or just run your 4 to 8 gauge like you already have. Might be a subtle difference. 

So you want to do the 15" Dayton?


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Lol. I better stick with my 10...otherwise its gonna go 15 then 18. Honestly, I like more of the lower mids, then the really low notes...low notes seem muddy and almost sound like a rattle to me. I used to have 2 8's in a chevy s10 right behind my seat and I loved the way those sounded...they added a good kick to the higher freq lows (or lower mids), without giving me the long rumbles...if that makes sense. Also, I don't want a big box....without having measured anything, I'm thinking of just glassing the entire spare tire area and keeping the box as low as possible...maybe an inch or two above the top of that well....maybe it'll be .5-.8 sqf? That way I can use the stock floor.

I think I'm getting that XA amp. For $130 I can't find anything else that will give me 500 RMS...a clarion at that price is only 400.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> Lol. I better stick with my 10...otherwise its gonna go 15 then 18. Honestly, I like more of the lower mids, then the really low notes...low notes seem muddy and almost sound like a rattle to me. I used to have 2 8's in a chevy s10 right behind my seat and I loved the way those sounded...they added a good kick to the higher freq lows (or lower mids), without giving me the long rumbles...if that makes sense. Also, I don't want a big box....without having measured anything, I'm thinking of just glassing the entire spare tire area and keeping the box as low as possible...maybe an inch or two above the top of that well....maybe it'll be .5-.8 sqf? That way I can use the stock floor.


ha if you don't want "long rumbles" then the Dayton is definitely your sub. That thing has like zero "sustain" if you will, it's almost kind of creepy when you listen to it for the first time. The low notes are just there and gone. I have a hard time telling when it's turned on sometimes on normal music, and then I turn it off and go "hey that's where it was". But then if I listen to Snoop Dogg or Luda and then it's like "oh right now my insides hurt, thanks Dayton."


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> Lol. I better stick with my 10...otherwise its gonna go 15 then 18. Honestly, I like more of the lower mids, then the really low notes...low notes seem muddy and almost sound like a rattle to me. I used to have 2 8's in a chevy s10 right behind my seat and I loved the way those sounded...they added a good kick to the higher freq lows (or lower mids), without giving me the long rumbles...if that makes sense. Also, I don't want a big box....without having measured anything, I'm thinking of just glassing the entire spare tire area and keeping the box as low as possible...maybe an inch or two above the top of that well....maybe it'll be .5-.8 sqf? That way I can use the stock floor.



I'm lost as to why you think a 15" makes for muddy notes. It isn't the sub size that matters, it is *inductance. * And a 15" Dayton has lower inductance than most high performance 10's and 12's! So it plays cleaner, higher. The Dayton models in WinISD like a 10 or 12 does, just with more efficiency because it is a bigger cone, therefore more SPL per watt. 

you have lots of space in that spare tire well. I had over 1.5 no problem. you can make the box flush with the metal and end up with about 1.2 cubes. consider the Dayton HO12" at least then. 

The Dayton behaves differently than say a Kicker or JL Audio, which is why I stress to you the issue that size isn't really important here. What is important is the proper box size, which none of these will be a problem with what you have.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Ok, got ya. Do bigger subs play higher freq's as well? I have been under the impression that a bigger sub can get lower, but has a harder time playing the higher frequencies.

Also, does the Dayton come in 2ohm? Otherwise that XA amp won't work.

I looked at the 15" Dayton, and that thing is 800 RMS at 4 ohms...I have a feeling an amp that can do 800 at 4 ohms will be expensive...since I can't find one that will do 500-600 @ 4 ohms under $200. Unless, I can get a 4 ohm sub running at 2 ohms somehow...without running 2 of them.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

The size of the sub is a non-issue, provided everything is built well enough. I mean, yeah, a 24" sub won't play a tweeter's range, but assuming we're not talking extremes, a 15" sub can play what a 10 can... provided their inductance is low.

Inductance is the key. Lower inductance speakers sound better! Its why so many people find the Dayton a surprising piece of equipment.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> Ok, got ya. Do bigger subs play higher freq's as well? I have been under the impression that a bigger sub can get lower, but has a harder time playing the higher frequencies.
> 
> Also, does the Dayton come in 2ohm? Otherwise that XA amp won't work.
> 
> I looked at the 15" Dayton, and that thing is 800 RMS at 4 ohms...I have a feeling an amp that can do 800 at 4 ohms will be expensive...since I can't find one that will do 500-600 @ 4 ohms under $200. Unless, I can get a 4 ohm sub running at 2 ohms somehow...without running 2 of them.


Think about PA speakers. The 12s and 15s in those cabinets aren't just for sub duty. They play a lot of what we consider midrange too. It's all how the driver is designed.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Ok. So I'm still stuck on a sub and amp combo under $300 (maybe $400 if its noticeably better than what I could get for 100 less). 

To run the 10" Dayton I can get a KAC-9104D which will do 500RMS @ 4ohm...without seeing specs for a 12" Dayton, I'm guessing I could run it off this amp too or there is the OVN1-2000D - Power Acoustik Monoblock 2000 Watt Class-D Gothic Series 2009 Amplifier which does 600 @ 4ohms.

To run the 15" Dayton I can do DD2600 - Boss Diablo 2600W 1 Channel Amp which will do 900 @ 4 ohms, but I have a feeling this is a low quality amp.

But now I'm looking at getting these big watt amps and paired with the X4R and mazda 3's weak electrical system = 
Lol. Matching audio gear is frustrating.

I have a lot more amp options if I have a 2ohm sub...which makes the PG dual 4 ohms seem more attractive. 

So basically a 2ohm sub & amp combo is about $220 (XA1200 & PG RSDC10 or 12"), while a similar 4 ohm sub & amp combo is about $320 (Dayton 10/12 and KAC-9104D). Is this $100 difference going to give me a noticeable improvement in sound quality?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

don't worry too much about matching, but you are correct in your line of thinking!

Let me help, I'll try to find some good amps that suit the cause.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> I have a lot more amp options if I have a 2ohm sub...which makes the PG dual 4 ohms seem more attractive.
> 
> So basically a 2ohm sub & amp combo is about $220 (XA1200 & PG RSDC10 or 12"), while a similar 4 ohm sub & amp combo is about $320 (Dayton 10/12 and KAC-9104D). Is this $100 difference going to give me a noticeable improvement in sound quality?


This type of analysis is refreshing. If only I could get my girlfriend to problem-solve like this, I'd be all set... 

You are right, the D4 sub configuration is more attractive for amp wattage purposes, which does put a check in the "bad" column for the Dayton. I don't know how much stock you should be putting in 400W to a sub vs 600W to a sub. I'm not going to argue too much about how much headroom is preferable, so I can't say whether you actually need the 900W Kenwood to run the Dayton. But is the increase worth a 30% increase (as your current numbers show)? I don't know. Good question


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Bid on this maybe, up to around $130-150 tops:
Pioneer Premier PRS D2000T-amplifier : eBay Motors (item 190371726329 end time Feb-15-10 10:57:45 PST)

This is a match to the X4R, a two channel that is K-stat (digital, low draw.)
KENWOOD KAC-X20 eXcelon 2-CHANNEL 1000W AMPLIFIER R/B - eBay (item 140376830307 end time Feb-21-10 14:37:12 PST)

This beast:
CLARION DPX2251 650 WATT 2-CHANNEL CAR AUDIO AMPLIFIER - eBay (item 160398279764 end time Feb-23-10 19:53:32 PST)



That should do it.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Exactly. I listed the 9104D because it can do decent watts at 4 ohms, but I'm basically using this amp to the minimum of it's ability. Other amps in the same price class do about 300RMS at 4 ohms, which I would not want to run to a 600RMS sub...I'd rather have something like 600 or 700RMS to a 600RMS sub and then I run into the limits of my electrical system.

Is the power draw of an amp constant regardless if it's putting out 500RMS @ 4 ohms or 900RMS @ 1 ohm? or do these subs draw less current at lower output?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

The sub's current draw is dynamic with the music.

We use RMS guides to help us understand the "average" maximum daily power we might use. 

Amps draw a min. current all the time (idle current), unless they are class A then they draw all the time. A/B amps are about 30-50% efficient. Class D is about 60-80%, and the same with other digital or exotic supplies. 

I would run the Kenwood KAC-X20 because it is "matchy-matchy", but that's just me. Also, the other Kenwood you stated is an a/b amp, not K-stat (digital.)


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Dayton HO15 = $159
KAC-x20 = $130
Total $289

Dayton HO12 = 138.24
KAC-x20 = $130
Total $268.24

Full of win.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Sweet. Thanks for finding that...I'm going to get the x20. Out of curiosity, what would happen if I hooked up a 2ohm sub to it while it's bridged? Would it run? Would it burn? Would my car go poof?

Also, I would feel better buying it from someplace like sonicelectronix, but it's out of stock there. I'm kinda worried cause it's a refurb.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

It would either:

A: Get pretty hot
B: Activate a protection circuit in the amp (likely, since Kenwood's do this)
C: Play anyway and die.

Judging by the manual, I wouldn't do it. you could run a 2ohm sub on ONE channel just fine though.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I need to point out, I'm not a Kenwood whore here. I just think they match the situation perfectly and should be considered. If I were in your exact shoes, I'd probably pony up for the X4R and X1R combo. A little more expensive, but more power too. And they match perfectly.

Still, for under $300, hard to beat, eh?


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

fourthmeal said:


> It would either:
> 
> A: Get pretty hot
> B: Activate a protection circuit in the amp (likely, since Kenwood's do this)
> ...


Sometimes option C comes with pretty magic smoke too :/ Doesn't smell too great though.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

94VG30DE said:


> Sometimes option C comes with pretty magic smoke too :/ Doesn't smell too great though.


Sayeth the manual:

Smoke shall pour. Damage occur.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

All good suggestions here but one option is to get a passive convertible speaker and set it in the coaxial config (like the ppi's, mb quart)

Get the x4r and run it in 3 channel (using the front channels to power the comp set, utilizing passive crossover and delay and eq from the x4r)

Get a single sub that works well off the 350 or so watts the x4r gives bridged like the IDQ or a JBL gto.

But more power is nice and active is cool if you want to fiddle around. Just a budget option than you can always upgrade from


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

tyroneshoes said:


> All good suggestions here but one option is to get a passive convertible speaker and set it in the coaxial config (like the ppi's, mb quart)
> 
> Get the x4r and run it in 3 channel (using the front channels to power the comp set, utilizing passive crossover and delay and eq from the x4r)
> 
> ...



The HAT Imagine would also do this passive thing.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Ok. But then what's the difference between a speaker like the Imagine and any other component system where you can't switch it to a coaxial setup? They're both going through the passive crossover... Also, does time delay work by freq where you can delay a certain freq range, or does it work by channel?

Also, if you have, say, a 4 channel amp can you run 2 channels at 4 ohms and run the other 2 at 2 ohms? Or do all channels need to see the same load.


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## ReloadedSS (Aug 26, 2008)

Great advice in this thread, not to mention a few good laughs. Let us know what you go with. There's not usually a "wrong" answer as far as product selection goes, but there are better answers based on your needs for a system.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> Ok. But then what's the difference between a speaker like the Imagine and any other component system where you can't switch it to a coaxial setup? They're both going through the passive crossover... Also, does time delay work by freq where you can delay a certain freq range, or does it work by channel?




Time delay is per channel. If you want to go passive, stay coaxial. If you go component or separates (remember, MLI-65's and some cheap tweeters is CHEAP total, like $100), then you should go active to compensate for location issues.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Thats what I thought about time delay. So I found an x20r locally for $130 (craigslist) which is the same as sonicelectronix except they have it out of stock and will take 2-3 weeks to get it to me. Are these amps known to be reliable? If not I'll order it new from sonic and will wire up my car in the mean while. Should be getting my PAC LOC today and the 4 gauge kit this Friday.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Millionbuy online had it for $130, and with eBay you got it with 10% cashback and ebay bucks 2%. My link I made before was for millionbuy on ebay. 

I don't know about reliability, but millionbuy sells squaretrade warranties if you want one. I always upgrade when I break ****.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

At least new or "refurb" you get to assume that the amp wasn't used at a 2-ohm or 1-ohm load, or it was and those components have been replaced


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Yeah, I've had awesome success with millionbuy. They ship instantly, and the product is always well-packaged.

I hate buying used if I can help it, unless it helps one of our members here.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Smokin7 said:


> Ok. But then what's the difference between a speaker like the Imagine and any other component system where you can't switch it to a coaxial setup? They're both going through the passive crossover... Also, does time delay work by freq where you can delay a certain freq range, or does it work by channel?
> 
> Also, if you have, say, a 4 channel amp can you run 2 channels at 4 ohms and run the other 2 at 2 ohms? Or do all channels need to see the same load.


The reason I suggest a convertible passive set that is configured pointsource is because the woofer and tweet are the same distance so you can properly set the delay. Separate the tweets and mids in a passive set and the delay for the tweets will be off (which is less noticeable than the mids which delay makes a huge audible difference with) Also, if you do run a passive setup like I suggested, you will have all 5 bands of peq to use on the speakers and you can eq the sub to liking. Thus getting results almost as good as a decent active setup. 

If you go active, you have slightly less eq bands to adjust (3mids, 3 tweets) due to the way the x4r is configured (but more power and driver options) and you do have to have a midbass that can be ok with being highpassed at 60hz max as that is the higest subsonic freq available. Too low for my rainbow kickbasses so I had to allow my headunit to provide the highpass at 80hz.

For what its worth, in my next car I will be using morel pointsource speakers, the single x4r and a sub like the idq. KISS

And by the way, you can run mids that are 2,4,8 ohms and tweets that are 4 or 8 ohm and it is totally fine for the amp. If bridged, you can only use a 4 ohm speaker.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Can the MLI-65s be highpassed at 60hz?

I think I got the sub figured out...I'll use the Dayton HO 10" with the X20 amp. I dont like the idea of getting a refurb amp since it could be refurbished by millionbuy and they have some sucky ratings to go with their 90 day warranty, so I'll wait for sonicelectronix. I'm doing the 10" because the amp will provide 520RMS and the sub is rated at 600...I feel better about doing that then pushing a 700RMS 12".

Also, if I can't find a good deal on tweets, is there a place where I can order good tweets like I can with the MLIs? 

and I'm going to sneak one more in here - what are the dimensions for the Exodus Anarchy? 
DIYCable.com : Intro » Home » Exodus Subwoofers »
This thing look sweet so I want to see if I can fit it in...I'd be ok with creating a spacer to give it some more room, but if I have to trim the door to fit it, then I'd rather do the MLI.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Smokin7 said:


> Can the MLI-65s be highpassed at 60hz?
> 
> I think I got the sub figured out...I'll use the Dayton HO 10" with the X20 amp. I dont like the idea of getting a refurb amp since it could be refurbished by millionbuy and they have some sucky ratings to go with their 90 day warranty, so I'll wait for sonicelectronix. I'm doing the 10" because the amp will provide 520RMS and the sub is rated at 600...I feel better about doing that then pushing a 700RMS 12".
> 
> ...


Yes they can be crossed that low but remember, the lower you crossover your mids, the more door rattles you will deal with= more deadening.

Madisound has the seas and lpg tweets which are popular choices

Those exodus speakers are almost 4" deep. Doubt they would fit


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Smokin7 said:


> Can the MLI-65s be highpassed at 60hz?
> 
> I think I got the sub figured out...I'll use the Dayton HO 10" with the X20 amp. I dont like the idea of getting a refurb amp since it could be refurbished by millionbuy and they have some sucky ratings to go with their 90 day warranty, so I'll wait for sonicelectronix. I'm doing the 10" because the amp will provide 520RMS and the sub is rated at 600...I feel better about doing that then pushing a 700RMS 12".
> 
> ...


Good choice on the Ref 10 HO but the word seems to be they perform best in a ported box.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Yeah, I'd definitely go at least 12 with the Dayton HO. Other subs, no...but the Dayton is a special sub, as we've already surmised.

Efficiency-wise, the 12" will play louder with less power than the 10". That's the way subs work. Bigger cones = more efficiency, all else being equal. So those watts will get you MORE, not less.

Exact numbers:
12" 88dB
10" 87dB

and now why I was pining so hard for a 15"...
15" 90dB. 

See?

Now, 

You've got 3 1/2" in those doors as-is.

Exodus specs:
http://www.diycable.com/main/pdf/AnarchyDocs.pdf
They are 3.66" deep.

In other words, with a small baffle board, you CAN fit them. But for the money, I think I'd recommend the MLI-65's first, then the Anarchy's. I mean, basically you'll save $60 on the pair.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

And for tweets, Id hop on these before anyone else does. Amazing tweets at a price I would jump on. 

Zapco model KT-6.28 tweeter /pair - eBay (item 290393178494 end time Feb-17-10 18:34:56 PST)

And if you get a low fs tweet like the zapcos, also consider the dayton rs180 midwoofers. Great combo I ran for a while.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Ok, so this leads to a few more questions. What about these zapco i force speakers...they worth it, or am I better off with the MLI-65s and some other tweets? If it's MLIs, then would there be a big difference between using the zapco tweets mentioned by tyrone vs. some cheaper tweets like Tang Band 25-1719S 1" Ceramic Dome Tweeter? I figure if the MLIs are good and are $27 a piece then either the zapcos are really really good at $50 each, or they're overpriced....
i-6.2 - ZAPCO 6.5" i-FORCE COMPONENT SPEAKERS NEW - eBay (item 130361168926 end time Feb-21-10 18:06:58 PST)

Fourthmeal, I know you mentioned that space is tight up in the sail panel, so I'm willing to trim down the tweets to get them in there...or maybe trim the panel a little...perfect excuse to get a dremel.

Now, about subs. If I get the Dayton HO 12", can I still run the x20 with it, or should I get a bigger amp since this one is 520RMS? 
What do I gain by pushing more watts into that sub besides volume...which I don't turn up that high as it is.

About boxes - I've never built a box before, but I figure it can't be that hard...hardest part is going to be figuring out how much air space is inside after I account for the thickness of the fiberglass. But now that we're talking about a ported box i'm 
Is this as simple as cutting a hole in the box for the air to move around, or is there more to it?

BTW, I just spent an hour in 11 degree weather installing some DDM Tuning 6K HIDs.....fingers are still numb, but dam are they sexy


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> Ok, so this leads to a few more questions. What about these zapco i force speakers...they worth it, or am I better off with the MLI-65s and some other tweets? If it's MLIs, then would there be a big difference between using the zapco tweets mentioned by tyrone vs. some cheaper tweets? I figure if the MLIs are good and are $27 a piece then either the zapcos are really really good at $50 each, or they're overpriced....
> i-6.2 - ZAPCO 6.5" i-FORCE COMPONENT SPEAKERS NEW - eBay (item 130361168926 end time Feb-21-10 18:06:58 PST)
> 
> Now, about subs. If I get the Dayton HO 12", can I still run the x20 with it, or should I get a bigger amp since this one is 520RMS?
> ...



I don't recommend you port this box. That's going to be VERY hard to figure out with a sub box of this type. A sealed 12 or 15 is the way to go. If you use a traditional box, I could definitely see you using a ported enclosure, but this car has amazingly high cabin gain and a sealed box will play FLAT. 

The KAC-X20 is suitable for all these situations. 500W is 500W, it is going to sound awesome. DOUBLE the power = only 3dB more volume, so 100-200W isn't going to do us much.

This is what Zaph had to say about the MLI-65:
Zaph|Audio
Mach 5 MLI-65







Cost: $36
Usability:








Build Quality:








Consistency:








Value:







Comments: This woofer has a very good build quality however price has doubled since it was tested. There is a cast metal frame and a nice coated pulp fiber cone. The harmonic distortion isn't going to win any awards, but it's usable enough and the response curve is relatively smooth. This is a higher Qts, 4 ohm driver and will probably need to be in a larger sealed box for home use. It would work well in infinite baffle situations, including car doors. Consider aperiodic damping if you need to use it in a smaller sealed box. Tested December 2006.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Ok, so then what are my limitations since I will be underpowering it? What should I avoid doing in order to not damage the sub?

Also, I hear that the mazda 3 HU puts out a bad signal to the rear channels, so everyone is recommending that the front channels are used....will I be able to hook up 2 amps using the front channels? The LOC has 2 RCAs for the front, and 2 for the rear. Can i use a Y splitter on the front channels or will that degrade the signal?

and here is a random question - can different subs be placed in the same box? like a 12 and 2 8's?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> Ok, so then what are my limitations since I will be underpowering it? What should I avoid doing in order to not damage the sub?
> 
> Also, I hear that the mazda 3 HU puts out a bad signal to the rear channels, so everyone is recommending that the front channels are used....will I be able to hook up 2 amps using the front channels? The LOC has 2 RCAs for the front, and 2 for the rear. Can i use a Y splitter on the front channels or will that degrade the signal?
> 
> and here is a random question - can different subs be placed in the same box? like a 12 and 2 8's?


You cannot damage a sub by underpowering it. You can drive your amp into clipping, which will sound horrible, but the sub doesn't care. The amp cares though.

The amps should be able to daisy-chain from one to another. Or you could y-split if you want.


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Subs can share airspace but you don't want to mix them. If you have 3 12's that want 1 cube each you can put them all into a 3 cube box. But if you start mixing subs that want to see different space its not going to work.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

FYI the X4r has the daisy-chain out, designed for exactly what we're talking about.


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## monkeybutt (Oct 1, 2005)

Smokin7 said:


> Ok, so then what are my limitations since I will be underpowering it? What should I avoid doing in order to not damage the sub?
> 
> You are way overemphasizing matching or exceeding your prospective amp's output to the claimed rating of a sub. Consider sensitivity of a given sub to see if it will have sufficient ouput for your needs. For instance that 15" Dayton HO running off 350 watts into 4ohms from that XA1200 should get plenty loud with excellent depth, authority, and transient response if the box is well made. Keep in mind that cabin gain is your friend here.
> 
> ...


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Ok. So I got a good idea on what I'm doing now. Looks like I'll be starving for a week or two...

x4r and x20 - 384 shipped
Dayton 12" - 150 shipped
PAC LOC - 50 shipped
4 gauge kit and speaker wire - 40 shipped
fiberglass and box materials - 100 ?
mids and tweeters - 100-200
sound deadener (62 sqf RAAMMAT BTX & Ensolite) - 170 shipped - not sure if I need this much, but I want to do both front doors and I'm sure I'll need some in the hatch too.

so about $994-$1194


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## ReloadedSS (Aug 26, 2008)

This thread reminds me of all the great stuff we can do here on DIYMA. Someone shows up with a mind open to new opinions and learning, and the good folks here help them out. 

Nothing to add, except that bit o' sunshine. Well, I take that back. There is one thing to note...once you start, it's like an addiction that can't stop.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> Ok. So I got a good idea on what I'm doing now. Looks like I'll be starving for a week or two...
> 
> x4r and x20 - 384 shipped
> Dayton 12" - 150 shipped
> ...


Don't forget to activate bing.cashback and get your 8-10% cashback on ebay items, and 2% ebaybucks. Free money.

Instead of the PAC LOC, run this thing:
ROCKFORD FOSGATE RF-BLD BALANCED LINE DRIVER 2 CHANNEL - eBay (item 330399178502 end time Feb-25-10 11:18:24 PST)

That produces a strong signal, should sound better.

DO NOT purchase the cheap RAAMmat. Get the upper level stuff if you want, but do not buy the cheap. I have so much goo because of that crap it is ridiculous.

IMO, give Don at sounddeadenershowdown.com a shout (rudeboy on here), and see what he can do with less money. His products are my favorite.


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## Jdawgg (Feb 10, 2010)

love this thread, because im a car audio noobie and im looking to create a $600-700 system as well. I think I'm gonna get that dayton sub sounds like its a beast. I've been lookin at maybe getting a Eclipse CD7200 MKII CD 7200 HU refurbished for $250, or should I focus more of my budget on a good amp? Also do I have to worry about my 1991 honda civic dx's alternator/battery with a class D amp? what about a class a/b?

Also how important is it to get sound deadening material, is it something I could hold off or get away with not having any. (im looking to get a new car in a year or so anyway)


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## ReloadedSS (Aug 26, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> Don't forget to activate bing.cashback and get your 8-10% cashback on ebay items, and 2% ebaybucks. Free money.
> 
> DO NOT purchase the cheap RAAMmat. Get the upper level stuff if you want, but do not buy the cheap. I have so much goo because of that crap it is ridiculous.
> 
> IMO, give Don at sounddeadenershowdown.com a shout (rudeboy on here), and see what he can do with less money. His products are my favorite.


Right, use the cashback whenever possible. 

Also, try to get good deadener. It's one of those things you can only do once without difficulty. Yes, you can scrape it all off, or lay more on top, but it's a one time, sunk cost. Most of your other gear you can re-sell and recoup some of the funds. Deadening...not so much.



> love this thread, because im a car audio noobie and im looking to create a $600-700 system as well. I think I'm gonna get that dayton sub sounds like its a beast. I've been lookin at maybe getting a Eclipse CD7200 MKII CD 7200 HU refurbished for $250, or should I focus more of my budget on a good amp? Also do I have to worry about my 1991 honda civic dx's alternator/battery with a class D amp? what about a class a/b?
> 
> Also how important is it to get sound deadening material, is it something I could hold off or get away with not having any. (im looking to get a new car in a year or so anyway)


There's different schools of thought on all of this - some will say to start with the best source unit you can get and upgrade from there, some will say that you can put deadening in later.

Obviously if you can get a really good source unit like the CD7200 MkII right away, that 's great. But if your budget is $700, you've sunk over 1/3 of your budget right there. Depending on whether you want a whole system or not right away will probably answer the question of whether or not you want to get that unit. You'll need an amp and likely speakers to go with that source unit, so it may be tight to get deadening on that budget.

Let's say that you get that source unit, and have $500 left. 

You'll need a wire harness, but I think you can ISO mount into that civic, so you don't need a kit. So there's about $10.

- Wiring kit, speaker wire, let's say $40.
- Dayton sub, $150.

Leaving $300 for amplifier(s) and a front stage. It's doable, possibly. Take the recommendation to run the x4r in tri-mode, pick up a mid and tweet to run active with the rest. Deadening might not fit into the budget, as you can see. The good thing about the equipment, is when you upgrade, you can generally get a return on what you paid, and use that going forward.

But I'm getting ahead of myself - you should look at fourthmeal's questions and answer them as well before making a decision. If you are looking for something with more output and less clarity, there are other subs that would work.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Instead of the PAC LOC, run this thing:
> ROCKFORD FOSGATE RF-BLD BALANCED LINE DRIVER 2 CHANNEL - eBay (item 330399178502 end time Feb-25-10 11:18:24 PST)
> 
> That produces a strong signal, should sound better.


too bad I already ordered it. I got this one...looks like it has something I can adjust on each channel
PAC AOEM-MAZ2 (aoemmaz2) Factory System Adapters Factory Stereo (OEM) Integration Car Audio, Video, & GPS Navigation - Sonic Electronix

Is that RF Line Driver going to give me a flatter signal or just boost it's strength?

If it will make a bigger difference then I'll get it. I got the PAC since it's plug and play and I really don't like cutting wires.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

IF you got the PAC on the way, just roll with it. You only want to power your front speakers anyway, that's why the PAC seems like a bad idea. 

There is no signal flattening, just a higher boost. The flattening can come from the X4R, since it has EQ.

The PAC is plug and play, but you'll need to get over the wire cutting deal because that will still occur.

The reason I like the RF thing so much is that it has a remote out, so you can turn your amps on. It senses current through the speaker wire from the HU, and turns on. That way you don't have to find a turn-on source. These newer cars don't have a traditional one, and its a pain in the ass to get into the ignition key wiring, or fuse box wiring...so the remote turn on feature is handy. My 3sixty.2 has it, and when I ran straight from the stock head unit to the processor, I had to use it because I couldn't find a usable 12V switched signal in either the Mazda 3, or the Tribute I have now.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

fourthmeal said:


> IF you got the PAC on the way, just roll with it. You only want to power your front speakers anyway, that's why the PAC seems like a bad idea.
> 
> There is no signal flattening, just a higher boost. The flattening can come from the X4R, since it has EQ.
> 
> ...


I tend to look at the wiring diagram, and just pull from something that is hot only when the car is in ACC mode. It's not the same as only having the amps on when the head unit is on, but it's usually close enough. Things like heater circuit, some courtesy lighting if you are lucky, cigarette circuit sometimes, etc. 

But yeah this is DIY, you are going to want to get over that cutting wires aversion pretty quick


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

94VG30DE said:


> I tend to look at the wiring diagram, and just pull from something that is hot only when the car is in ACC mode. It's not the same as only having the amps on when the head unit is on, but it's usually close enough. Things like heater circuit, some courtesy lighting if you are lucky, cigarette circuit sometimes, etc.
> 
> But yeah this is DIY, you are going to want to get over that cutting wires aversion pretty quick



Nothing on this car is, due to CAN-BUS. Just like the Tribute. Sometimes things stay on, sometimes they shut off. It is called RAP, which stands for Retained Accessory Power but it should stand for Random Accessory Power.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

HAHA I forgot about CAN. That's the luxury I have with my pre-OBDII car


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

The Lex I'm trying to get should be easy too. There is a BEATSONIC kit that matches everything up to look stock, and the wiring is cake (provided you are starting from scratch which of course I will be.)


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

The remote turn on is something i've been reading about on mazda forums. I won't have that with the PAC. Don't those amps have the ability to turn on when they sense a signal from the radio? If not, I'll probably tap my cig lighter unless there are other options. The initial thump that happens when the system turns on without the remote, will that hurt the amps or the sub?


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Jdawgg said:


> love this thread, because im a car audio noobie and im looking to create a $600-700 system as well. I think I'm gonna get that dayton sub sounds like its a beast.


Get ready to get a second job....my $600 system is looking more like a $1200 system :laugh:


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> Nothing on this car is, due to CAN-BUS. Just like the Tribute. Sometimes things stay on, sometimes they shut off. It is called RAP, which stands for Retained Accessory Power but it should stand for Random Accessory Power.


The only time I see RAP problems, is usually when using integration modules to add an aftermarket radio to a car. Soundquest parts were HORRIBLE for that. Had pretty good luck with the Metra Axxess parts. If the customer isn't looking to keep the chimes etc (mainly GM cars) I usually find a RAP source, and use that to power the radio.

If you are looking for a way to add a turn on to a factory radio, check out PAC's TR7. It does a multitude of things, but one of them is a trigger from signal on speaker leads.

Jay


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Smokin7 said:


> Get ready to get a second job....my $600 system is looking more like a $1200 system :laugh:


LOLZ! I started with a $1200 budget...who knows where its at now! :laugh: Welcome to DIY Crack Audio.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> Get ready to get a second job....my $600 system is looking more like a $1200 system :laugh:



So true. But then again you could always bare it down to some PG RSd comps, the single amp, and the sub...and you'd have a few hundred saved right there. But then again...you'll be doing your system TWICE.. right?


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

fourthmeal said:


> So true. But then again you could always bare it down to some PG RSd comps, the single amp, and the sub...and you'd have a few hundred saved right there. But then again...you'll be doing your system TWICE.. right?


hahahaha. You sound like a salesman, which is even funnier to me b/c I know you aren't  

I don't know how to count how many times I've "done" my system at this point, b/c it is always "in progress"....


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

94VG30DE said:


> hahahaha. You sound like a salesman, which is even funnier to me b/c I know you aren't
> 
> I don't know how to count how many times I've "done" my system at this point, b/c it is always "in progress"....



Ahh, but I was for a decade of my life, so its in the blood. But... and I know you'll agree with this... it is common sense. Being the freaks we are with this hobby, we know that if we compromise anywhere, we will itch to fix it or even start all over again.

I'm on the 5th build in the Tribute.

Plus,... I just closed on the Lexus so its mine... so thus beginneth a new chapter.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

fourthmeal said:


> Ahh, but I was for a decade of my life, so its in the blood. But... and I know you'll agree with this... it is common sense. Being the freaks we are with this hobby, we know that if we compromise anywhere, we will itch to fix it or even start all over again.
> 
> I'm on the 5th build in the Tribute.
> 
> Plus,... I just closed on the Lexus so its mine... so thus beginneth a new chapter.


haha yep, I know ahead of time in a build what things I am going to want to do over in <6 months. My tweeter location is 1, tweeter selection is 2, mid baffle design is 3...and that's AFTER I finish the project I'm on now  

Congrats on the Lexus. I can laugh at your "plight" of a new project now, knowing with about 18 months I'm going to be in the same boat. I think that deserves a happy face and a sad face.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Plus,... I just closed on the Lexus so its mine... so thus beginneth a new chapter.


Congrats on getting the Lex


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## ReloadedSS (Aug 26, 2008)

It's nice to find a place with kindred spirits.

I haven't "done" a system in years, partly because life's been too busy, and partly because I can't get caught up in the addiction again. Or can I? So I've had several "systems" come into the house, and leave, all without every seeing power. Sad, yes?

But, this year should be different. Yes, things are finally lining up. Wait, there's a recall on my "new" car?!? Well, it will still happen, just might be later than I thought.

Congrats on the Lex, FourthMeal. Lovely car. I think I've decided to save my pennies for a nice pre-owned LS460 a few years from now.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Thanks!


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Can I work with fiberglass in the cold or do I need to wait till summer (no garage) ?

Also, should I be worried about box size with the 12" Dayton, or can I assume that the box will be good? Without measuring the depth of the spare tire well, I'm thinking of glassing it so the box is flush with the top...unless that's too shallow for the sub, in which case I'll go up a little. 

How far from the back of the box should the sub sit?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> Can I work with fiberglass in the cold or do I need to wait till summer (no garage) ?


You can work it to about 50 degrees, then **** starts falling apart. 

I don't mess with it until 60 degrees, and use a heat gun...lots.

When it gets 100 or so in Vegas... I use WAY less catalyst of course, because we are talking about a heat-reactive product here.

A dayton 12 will work perfectly, promise. Just sealed though, not ported.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> How far from the back of the box should the sub sit?


That motor is vented out the bottom, so you are going to want at least 0.5" to 0.75" of clearance on the back of the magnet.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

The zapco tweets are not from the iforce line, theyre from the reference line and theyre great tweets. Italian made by ESB. I used the competition tweets and loved them for years. The reference sounds almost as good.

So for $50 a tweet, you get the zapco which are slim, low fs silk domes with all metal casing, grill and mounting hardware, made for car audio. And if youre worried about them being overpriced, they cost about 350 a pair new from a zapco dealer.

or you spend 25 on the TB tweets which will likely preform comparably, but it will be a pain to install, its a lil over an inch deep and much wider. Shell out the extra money for the zapco as theyre high end tweets that you would probably never need to change and you can mount them anywhere. IMO


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Just pulled the trigger and ordered the Dayton 12" and the X4R and X20 those MLI-65s and the Zapco tweets...me ->  my wallet ->


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## 3fish (Jul 12, 2009)

fourthmeal said:


> Bid on this maybe, up to around $130-150 tops:
> Pioneer Premier PRS D2000T-amplifier : eBay Motors (item 190371726329 end time Feb-15-10 10:57:45 PST)
> 
> This is a match to the X4R, a two channel that is K-stat (digital, low draw.)
> ...


Excellent work on finding these bargains! 

Excellent questions for the OP too!

Wow, kind of opposite of tSpence!

BTW anybody want to clue him in on VBA


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Fourth, how did you run the wires in the mazda3? I'm thinking of running power down the passenger side, then speaker wires up the driver side.

Can I run speaker wire on the same side as the power? I know it's bad to do with RCA's, but I have not heard about speaker wire.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> Fourth, how did you run the wires in the mazda3? I'm thinking of running power down the passenger side, then speaker wires up the driver side.
> 
> Can I run speaker wire on the same side as the power? I know it's bad to do with RCA's, but I have not heard about speaker wire.


Is there any reason to NOT run speaker wire next to the RCAs? RCA generally takes up less room than power wiring does, so if you had the same amount of space along both sides I would think to run speaker wire and RCA on the same side anyway.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

94VG30DE said:


> Is there any reason to NOT run speaker wire next to the RCAs? RCA generally takes up less room than power wiring does, so if you had the same amount of space along both sides I would think to run speaker wire and RCA on the same side anyway.


Only reason I would want to run some on the passenger side is so I don't have to take off the entire dash to run the wires from driver side to passenger door...

Also, I've seen ground distro blocks...is using one of those two combine the ground for 2 amps going to work as well as if I ground the amps separately? Can two amps be grounded in the same spot?


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> Only reason I would want to run some on the passenger side is so I don't have to take off the entire dash to run the wires from driver side to passenger door...
> 
> Also, I've seen ground distro blocks...is using one of those *to *combine the ground for 2 amps going to work as well as if I ground the amps separately? Can two amps be grounded in the same spot?


With my car I was able to run the speaker wire from the passenger side to the drivers side all the way along the underside of the heat ducting, which is right above your feet. I did almost no disassembly to get to it. So you might be able to just tuck and zip-tie your way along. 

In fact, your two amps SHOULD be grounded in the same spot in the chassis. Definitely use a ground distro block. Otherwise you might run into having different ground potentials for your amps, which can induce noise.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> Fourth, how did you run the wires in the mazda3? I'm thinking of running power down the passenger side, then speaker wires up the driver side.
> 
> Can I run speaker wire on the same side as the power? I know it's bad to do with RCA's, but I have not heard about speaker wire.


I ran the power wire from the opening behind the glovebox (through the computer's wire grommet) down the passenger side rail, to the trunk. 

The RCA's were run from the processor (under the passenger seat) down the centerline.

Speaker wire was run on each side, so the right side was semi-near the power wire, but power and speaker wire don't do anything to each other.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I don't like using ground distro-blocks. I just use straight runs to a collective ground point.

In the case of the Mazda 3, I used the passenger rear seatbelt bracket, with paint ground off on the body, and the bracket itself, and the terminals sandwiched between the two. This was a strong grounding spot.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> Just pulled the trigger and ordered the Dayton 12" and the X4R and X20 those MLI-65s and the Zapco tweets...me ->  my wallet ->



BTW, this should be a sweet setup. Mellow, but forceful and accurate. When you get the tweets, you should experiment with locations before installing them. There might be a better place than the door sills.


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## PeteW (Feb 5, 2010)

Just thought I would add a note since I have just recently found this forum. This was a great thread where not a single person turned up there nose at a lower budget system, nobody that is extremely hung up on on boutique brands, and everybody was helpful.

It was a very refreshing change of pace from most of the other forums that I have found. Unfortunately I am finding myself quickly succumbing to what I thought was an addiction that I defeated long ago.

I was hoping the new, still in box, Alpine w900 and it's add-ons sitting next to me in my office pushing the stock speakers was going to be enough for me these days, but in the back of my mind I knew it would never end there -- sigh.

Smokin7 - it sounds like you have quite a nice sounding system shaping up there. Keep us up to date with install progress and initial thoughts. You will have some "fun" times tuning it all up.


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## ReloadedSS (Aug 26, 2008)

Pete, I think you'll find that for the most part, DIYMA is a good collection of folks who want to help out their fellow hobbyists. A lot of the questions here revolve around product suggestions for folks on a budget. It's the only mobile audio site I frequent daily. Sure, you'll find some experts and professionals here that do high end, expensive installations, but the site is geared towards people who want to learn and "do it yourself," to save some money. I don't think there's been any thread where someone was mocked for the budget they had -- so long as they were reasonable about what they were going to get. For example, if you only wanted to spend $100, you are likely not getting a deck, amp, speakers and a sub.

The "sweet spot" seems to be around $500 - $1500 as a budget for equipment. And even there you're going to have a lot of variation of gear. Especially if you don't mind exploring the used market - an excellent example being here on DIYMA. 

When you spend more than that, I'd argue that you start down the path of diminishing returns. Yes, a $10,000 system will sound good -- it should sound good! But how much better than a $5000 system? And how much is that better than a $2500 system? 

Not to mention that "sound quality" means different things to different people, and in today's economic climate, everybody on main street has to be fully cognizant of how they are spending their money. Often times, hobbies do, and should, take a back seat to other concerns. I've heard budget systems sound great in part due to a good install and thoughtful product selection. On the other hand, I've heard expensive systems that are terrible, usually due to lack of tuning -- and there are a lot of folks who just want ten tons of b-b-b-b-basss who spend a lot of money on a system, and I don't think it sounds terribly great. I'm no expert on sound, and there are folks here plenty more knowledgable than I am, but at the very least, lots of people share the desire to learn and grow in ideas and knowledge, and have a passion for this industry and hobby. I've been pleasantly surprised by the knowledge, and the modesty and humility I've seen on DIYMA; something you don't get on other car audio sites (or the internet, for that matter). Folks who are really good at this work, just wanting to share and give back, and yet while rightly proud, are also grounded enough so as not to be arrogant.

I take FourthMeal's work to be a great example - incredibly thoughtful product selection, OCD-like attention to detail, quality equipment on a realistic budget, yet he's always there to give helpful advice and *constructive* critiques where necessary. One build log comes to mind, and if you've seen it...well, you know. 

Welcome aboard, and I hope you'll have a fun time here!


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## jimp (Jul 12, 2009)

you don't have to take the entire dash off (driver side) if you run speaker wire up the driver side of the car. there is room under the dash lip in the footwell, and thru the dash to the passenger side behind the oem radio. check out the mazda3 site for how to's on taking the dash apart, it mostly snaps in & out with a few screws. search this site for mazda and you;ll find one by zoomin marvin i think.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Thanks for the props, y'all.

I can't wait to see how this one turns out. Fiberglassing for the first time is quite the adventure.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Smokin7 said:


> Just pulled the trigger and ordered the Dayton 12" and the X4R and X20 those MLI-65s and the Zapco tweets...me ->  my wallet ->


This sounds like a great setup. You should do a build log.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

I'll definitely do a build log since I'm going to have more questions along the way. As for glassing - it's going to have to wait at least until spring since it's too cold here and I don't have access to a garage. I'll probably end up buying a cheap prefab box just so I can hook the sub up. In other news, sonicelectronix has the amps on backorder and they don't know how long till they can get me one...millionbuy has them in stock but I don't know about buying it refurb...I'd rather find them new.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Smokin7 said:


> I'll definitely do a build log since I'm going to have more questions along the way. As for glassing - it's going to have to wait at least until spring since it's too cold here and I don't have access to a garage. I'll probably end up buying a cheap prefab box just so I can hook the sub up. In other news, sonicelectronix has the amps on backorder and they don't know how long till they can get me one...millionbuy has them in stock but I don't know about buying it refurb...I'd rather find them new.


As long as you get the warranty, nothing wrong with a refurb. Its actually hard to find a new x4r as they have been discontinued and when they do show up, they go for around $300.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Alright. On Monday I'll get in touch with sonicelectronix again and if they can't get these amps I'll find some other place.

Wiring - is 60 ft of 16gauge speaker wire going to be enough to wire up my 4 front speakers or should I order another 20ft roll?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I usually order a 100ft roll, then split it up into 1/4's

The other thing to do is run 4 conductor in-wall wire. Then you just run one set to each door through the molex (and have fun with that), and split it up in the door.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

IMO, Refurb is a good thing. It means Kenwood themselves worked on it by hand. It could have failed testing at the plant, then needed a new cap or transistor or something, before it left the factory. That's a refurb.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> IMO, Refurb is a good thing. It means Kenwood themselves worked on it by hand. It could have failed testing at the plant, then needed a new cap or transistor or something, before it left the factory. That's a refurb.


If it's a factory refurb, then yes. However, returned items are sometimes sold as refurbs too...or the store can 'refurb' the item...where they plug it in, see that it turns on and say 'yep, it's been refurb'd'.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

very true, but usually it is called a "Class A" refurb if it is from the plant.

Honestly though, I've never had an issue. As long as it isn't all scratched up, I'm good on refurbs. My F900BT, my Pioneer PRS-D4100F's, and my Rock USA's were all refurb. 

I see exactly what you are saying though...totally your call.

FYI, I think the Kicker SS amps also have processing and all that onboard too. Another option, though much bigger.


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## mrstop (Dec 15, 2009)

I bought a supposed "factory refurb" headunit from Sonic. I question it being refurb from the factory. It was DOA and I don't think they really tested it (no fm/am, aux, cd player noisy).

It was also a pain to deal with returning. Call for RMA, ship back (at my expense), wait for them to receive, wait for them to test. Oh, and by the way, "we'll issue a store credit." I haven't challenged the last piece yet because I haven't decided on what to replace it with. Everything I am interested is not available or out of stock there.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

A bit of an update:
I ended up buying the KAC-X4R and KAC-X20 refurbished from Millionbuy.com. I called them, and they said their stuff is factory refurbed...don't know how much of that is true, but one of the amps has a "refurbished by Kenwood" sticker and the other does not. They both seem to work really well. For tweets I got the Zapco KT-6.28, and for mids I got the MLI-65's. For a sub I got the Dayton 12" HO; it's temporarily in one of those scoche truck boxes...till it gets warm enough outside for me to glass a box.

Right now I'm running the X4R (speakers) from the line out's of the X20 (sub), but reversing this will allow me to use the X4R's PEQ and TA on the X20...don't know if this will improve anything, but I guess it adds flexibility to the setup. 

I have everything wired up and running off the stock HU and it sounds much better then the stock the mazda 3 came with. Now I just need to tune it - the tweets are overpowering the mids and the music ends up sounding higher pitched. I have the tweets and mids running from separate inputs and I've turned up the gain on the mid's input, but it still sounds off. I guess I have to play around with the PEQ...i'm thinking of using it to turn down the gain on the tweets. I looked at the Zapco passive xover that they use with these tweets and it does -3db or -6db on the tweets...maybe thats what I should do.

Also, I'm not exactly sure where to cross the mids and tweets. Right now I have tweets HP'd at 2.5K (based on zapco passive xover which crosses at 2600) and mids LP'd at 3.15K and then ISF'd at 50hz...which I think makes a bandpass of 50-3.15kHz 

I'm open to any suggestions, since this is my first time messing around with tuning...here is a link to the amp's manual in case someone wants to look at what it can do and suggest how to tweak it:

http://images.kenwood.eu/files/prod/747/5/KAC-PS4D_(EN).pdf


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> A bit of an update:
> I ended up buying the KAC-X4R and KAC-X20 refurbished from Millionbuy.com. I called them, and they said their stuff is factory refurbed...don't know how much of that is true, but one of the amps has a "refurbished by Kenwood" sticker and the other does not. They both seem to work really well. For tweets I got the Zapco KT-6.28, and for mids I got the MLI-65's. For a sub I got the Dayton 12" HO; it's temporarily in one of those scoche truck boxes...till it gets warm enough outside for me to glass a box.
> 
> Right now I'm running the X4R (speakers) from the line out's of the X20 (sub), but reversing this will allow me to use the X4R's PEQ and TA on the X20...don't know if this will improve anything, but I guess it adds flexibility to the setup.
> ...



I decided after recommending so many X4R's to take some of my own medicine, and I got my X1R and X4R (refurbed) in last weekend. My refurbs both had those stickers, both with a little cosmetic nicks and rubs, but certainly OK for a non-show install. Those stickers, btw, only came off with Goo-gone. 

Regarding the tweet level, tweeters are usually substantially more efficient than a mid, especially the MLI-65. So definitely work the gains there. You can also install an L-pad if you need more control. Lastly, you can use the EQ to adjust gain in a broad way, if you need to. Just try to get a reference with something like high quality earphones with you in your car, and when tuning you can compare back to back. That will get it REALLY close, then tune to taste from there.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> Also, I'm not exactly sure where to cross the mids and tweets. Right now I have tweets HP'd at 2.5K (based on zapco passive xover which crosses at 2600) and mids LP'd at 3.15K and then ISF'd at 50hz...which I think makes a bandpass of 50-3.15kHz


You have overlap in the crossover that is probably unnecessary. Set the HP on the tweet to 3.15kHz and the LP on the mid at 2.5kHz, and see how that sounds. Less overlap in that 3kHz should keep things from sounding so fatiguing.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

94VG30DE said:


> You have overlap in the crossover that is probably unnecessary. Set the HP on the tweet to 3.15kHz and the LP on the mid at 2.5kHz, and see how that sounds. Less overlap in that 3kHz should keep things from sounding so fatiguing.


I'll try this. I don't know where, but somewhere here I saw something about overlapping frequencies sounds better. I currently have my sub going up to about 66-70hz, and my midbass down to 50 (I can cut the midbass at 60 the highest). Should I separate these so they don't overlap?


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Smokin7 said:


> I'll try this. I don't know where, but somewhere here I saw something about overlapping frequencies sounds better. I currently have my sub going up to about 66-70hz, and my midbass down to 50 (I can cut the midbass at 60 the highest). Should I separate these so they don't overlap?


Probably a good idea. I would leave your sub where it's at, and then bring your midbass up to 70 or 80Hz, depending on how steep that slope is. 

Speaking of which, how steep are your slopes? Are they all the same?


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

I have the option of either a -12 or a -24 slope. I'm using the -12 right now across the board for mids and tweets since I'm not sure how it affects the sound. The sub's amp does not an adjustable slope.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Basic Car Audio Electronics has a lot of good info about crossovers, slopes, etc.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Basic Car Audio Electronics has a lot of good info about crossovers, slopes, etc.


I agree. I randomly stumbled on that site and read all of it...definitely good info. Unfortunately they skim over xovers and don't dig into that info, but I have an understanding of how the slope and Q works, just not sure how it sounds.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Gotcha!

Ok, so what you want in a crossover is so each speaker is playing its range appropriately. Most tweeters will cross well at 2.5 - 4kHz. Woofers might want to cross between 1k and 5khz, around there. When a woofer is crossed too high, it often "beams" sound and adds distortion due to cone breakup, etc. A general guideline is to run the crossover points equal on both sides, like 3.15kHz highpass tweeter, 3.15kHz lowpass woofer. then work from there.

Slopes are simple, just think of octaves (doublings or halves in frequency), think of how many decibels (relative level of volume) of drop it is per octave. So a steep slope means there is less "crosstalk" between the woofer and tweeter, and you can push the limits of the crossover points a bit more. Steeper isn't usually better, so experimentation is the key.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

BTW, the MLI-65 was reviewed by Zaph, so we have a great idea of how it should cross. 

Zaph|Audio

Zaph|Audio

The response graph dies off around 4kHz. The CSD plot shows a slightly ringy cone at the 3khz range, but nothing evil. And the distortion plot shows no real issues at any point in the driver.

So, maybe a cross point of 3k to start, and then tune to taste. Before you get crazy with crossovers, set the gains so everything is equal where you want it. Then tune.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Smokin7 said:


> A bit of an update:
> I ended up buying the KAC-X4R and KAC-X20 refurbished from Millionbuy.com. I called them, and they said their stuff is factory refurbed...don't know how much of that is true, but one of the amps has a "refurbished by Kenwood" sticker and the other does not. They both seem to work really well. For tweets I got the Zapco KT-6.28, and for mids I got the MLI-65's. For a sub I got the Dayton 12" HO; it's temporarily in one of those scoche truck boxes...till it gets warm enough outside for me to glass a box.
> 
> Right now I'm running the X4R (speakers) from the line out's of the X20 (sub), but reversing this will allow me to use the X4R's PEQ and TA on the X20...don't know if this will improve anything, but I guess it adds flexibility to the setup.
> ...


Since I pretty much had this exact setup lemme break it down.

You need to use both inputs of the x4r. Use y adapters if needed. The mid gain should be about half up (set normally) and the tweets almost at minimum. If you only use one input, only the tweets gain works and adjusts both speakers and they blow your ears off.

The zapco tweets like being crossed over at 2.5k 12 db slope (reversing phase made a difference here)

The mach 5 should play up to 2-2.5k 12 db slope.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

Guys, thanks for the advice. I changed the cross to 2.5 with a 12 slope for both the tweets and the mids, and cranked up the gain on the mid channel (gain for input sensitivity) and the difference is huge. Before the gain on mid's channel was half way to 4, and I turned it up to 2 and they blend with the tweeters so much better....no longer overwhelmed. Now I can play with the PEQ for the final touches


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Smokin7 said:


> Guys, thanks for the advice. I changed the cross to 2.5 with a 12 slope for both the tweets and the mids, and cranked up the gain on the mid channel (gain for input sensitivity) and the difference is huge. Before the gain on mid's channel was half way to 4, and I turned it up to 2 and they blend with the tweeters so much better....no longer overwhelmed. Now I can play with the PEQ for the final touches


Now try reversing the phase (+ and -) on the tweeters and seeing if they sound better. Did for me.

Also try lowering their gain of the tweets to blend. Maybe a little cut on 2.5k. If theres some sibilance, cut 5k a lil.

Even try 3.1k highpass for the tweets and keeping the 2.5k lowpass on the midbass both 12db slopes. 

Those are the areas to focus on in my experience with a similar setup.

imo, 50 hz is also too low for the subsonic. Use 60 since its as high as it goes.


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## Smokin7 (Feb 8, 2010)

I can do phase on the mids...phase is on B channel along with LPF and ISF, channel A only has HPF. I'll try reversing the phase on the mids and see what happens along with changing the cross point for tweets.

Tyrones, did you mean reversing the phase by changing the + and - wires on the amp terminals?


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Smokin7 said:


> I can do phase on the mids...phase is on B channel along with LPF and ISF, channel A only has HPF. I'll try reversing the phase on the mids and see what happens along with changing the cross point for tweets.
> 
> Tyrones, did you mean reversing the phase by changing the + and - wires on the amp terminals?


I didnt swap phase on my mids, I meant the tweets. Yeah swap + and - at the amp


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

With the x4r you can swap phase in the settings. 

FYI I just plugged mine in and removed the 3sixty.2. Just amazing, I'm pissed off that I hadn't purchased these sooner.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

fourthmeal said:


> With the x4r you can swap phase in the settings.
> 
> FYI I just plugged mine in and removed the 3sixty.2. Just amazing, I'm pissed off that I hadn't purchased these sooner.


Yeah, I still like them after all this time. No phase on channels a+b though. Gotta manually swap them.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Really? I never looked. I'll have to remember that.

Overall, for the price of a good amp (and it IS a good amp), you get a helluva lot.

I think with a processor like the 3sixty.2 running midbass, rear fill, and sub,..and this (much quieter) X4R on the channels that can't tolerate hiss, like midrange and tweeter..that's the magic bullet.


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