# Acoustic Elegance IB15 4ohm car version (Idmax comparison)



## cvjoint

Where to start...*introduction *of course. 

The AE drivers have been long known as Lambda Acoustics. I understand there have been some changes in the company but ultimately the main ideals are reflected in the new drivers in what appears to be their best versions to this date. Highlights: ultra low inductance, a blend of Pro audio rugged construction and Hi-Fi reproduction, high efficiency, low resonance construction, specific purpose built drivers (in this case car IB applications). I'm not going to go over more concepts and history, John Janowitz at AE is the go to guy for more informantion and I don't want to get stats wrong. 

*My setup:*



























I am using the in an infinite baffle configuration as required. Given the usable trunk volume I should be pushing .79 overall Q. Each subwoofer has a dedicated 500w amp at 4 ohm with built in 15hz subsonic. For the purposes of this review I can only vouch for 20hz-100hz operation in my 2000 Honda Accord Coupe. 

*Manufacuter's Specs:*

Fs: 20.4Hz
Qms: 4.5
Vas: 387L
Cms: .4mm/N
Mms: 152g
Rms: 4.35
Xmax: 18.5mm
Sd: 825sqcm
Vd: 3.05L
Qes: .45
Re: 2.7ohm
Z: 4ohm
*Le: .163mH*
Pe: 500W
Qts: .41
*1W SPL: 90.6dB
*
These weigh only *17lbs* or so and are sold for $129/ea or $100 x 4 units manuf. direct. 

To finish off the objective approach here is an MLS test of the driver with a LP at 200hz, no EQ, at listening position (driver seat with driver). You can see three separate tests for these drivers at different output levels, at the highest run my chassis was shaking violently so I decided that would be max practical output test. The red line with be typical output level in a moving car, you can see there are no variations in FR with different output levels.










Impressive results in my experience, I haven't tested a better sub setup ever. Notice how ruler flat the output is up to 125hz and down to 20 hz, and that is after cabin gain, with the seats up, and no EQ. fuzz factor. 

Here is my previous setup with 3 IdMax 12s in the same IB configuration, 100hz LP so judge from there down, no EQ. A total of 3 identical 500w amps were used. The only noteworthy aplication difference is driver orientation, IDmax dirvers were facing the cabin while the AE IB15s are facing the trunk. Polarity was reversed in the IB15 case. To keep variables fixed observe the green test where seats where up and trunk was closed for fair comparison.










The scale MLS used here was in 5 db steps so it may look a bit mysleading. The output is identical, governed mainly by cabin gain! Both drivers are + - 5db over the range 20hz-100hz. With EQ work I generally obtain + - 3 db which is very acceptable.

On to the *subjective listening.*
I've used many subwoofers in this car in the past: Polk Momo, Infinity Kappa Perfect, Kappa Perfect VQ, Audiobahn flame Q (oh boy), RE XXX '05 model and many more for midbass duty  This easily tops my chart as best overall. It's only downside is its spartan pro audio looks. The paper cone and foam surround are hand treated with a very sticky coat. The basket has an unatractive rubber ring. Overall this sub is pure function, there isn't a single part in its construction that is for show. While the paper is unimpressive it is light, stiff, not easily dented due to misuse or mechanical stress and handles mobile environment very well. The foam surround has very low resonance just like the cone. The rubber ring protects the surround and allows the sub to be rested on the front frame. The back of the sub is very tasteful, lots of venting, attractive spider and thin spokes. 

A+ for blending in with the midbass, virtually nonexistent motor noise, low resonance, upper extension, basically anything one would require from a driver in this application. I am truly impressed how the cheapest sub I ever bought was also the best performer. It shines in its transparency, I am perplexed just how well it dissapears. There is no distinct sound that would draw attention to its work, it has no hallow sound in the 80hz region like most subs 12 and over that i've tried. It is a live example that large diameter subs are not intrinsically sloppy, low end monsters, or slow, these are bogus remarks imo. I've come across none of these drawbacks.

For output enthusiasts the drivers have similar linear impact as the 3 12" IdMax drivers I've tested. They are very predictable after xmax and you know when to back of the knob, but honestly by then it's too loud to drive. Thermal performance is excellent, no complaints after abusing them for nearly 30min in traffic on Hollywood blvd.  Beyond xmax I think they move a bit less air the the three maxes near collapse, but it's unpleasant to listen as such. Till this day the XBL RE XXX remains the only sub I couldn't bottom out, but it's pointless, since I have more than enough output to bury the front stage. 

*Verdict: If you don't need flashy gear or to compete in SPL ranks this is the ultimate IB driver. *

For those wanting a bit more flash and output but would rather not risk it with inferior subs AE released their new AV 15s, alluminum cone, rubber surround, more xmax. However they are a bit pricier and heavier.

*Miscellaneous:*

I think these are what the Seas Excel lineup misses, a low distortion subwoofer segment.

Current models should have a diamond finished basket. It is a more attractive silver/black unit.


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## shinjohn

Very nice!
Really glad to see you got those installed!
I'm amazed you got those in (it's a tight fit) but the install looks great.
And I like the no frills look of the drivers, to be honest;
In car response looks really great too.... looks like a real winner! Hopefully I can hear this setup before you change your setup again.... 

One quick question: why do you have the bananas on the speaker terminals, instead of just inserting the bare wire?


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## cvjoint

shinjohn said:


> Very nice!
> Really glad to see you got those installed!
> I'm amazed you got those in (it's a tight fit) but the install looks great.
> And I like the no frills look of the drivers, to be honest;
> In car response looks really great too.... looks like a real winner! Hopefully I can hear this setup before you change your setup again....
> 
> One quick question: why do you have the bananas on the speaker terminals, instead of just inserting the bare wire?


I still have a couple of inches left before the magnet structure touches the seats. It's just enough so I can try the new AV15 and the CSS 15s in the near future. I'm not swapping any drivers out in a hurry, grad school is demanding and I usually keep my gear for at least a year before I sell to get the full experience. In short, this should be the setup that makes it to Marv's. I want a big change after that however. I plan on going back to Excels, this time the Nextel version.

Lol you got me with the banana plugs. I like to have a quick disconnect solution but it is more for kicks this time since the subs can't come out easily, they are trapped by two amps. I got a dozen for $10 on ebay come on...:laugh:


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## cvjoint

On second look it seems like the Max is dropping more severely from 25hz to 20hz. It's about 5 db lower at 20hz. However, few people should hear the difference in output that low.


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## bassfromspace

I may have missed it, but what was your test music?


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## Boostedrex

Nice review! I've been curious about these subs. It's a shame I can't talk my wife into letting me do an IB install in her G coupe. 

I'll be looking forward to hearing these at the BBQ this coming summer.

Zach


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## cvjoint

bassfromspace said:


> I may have missed it, but what was your test music?


Well, just about everything plays through them: Soul, R&B, Rap, Hip Hop, Rock, Alternative, Pop, Country, Raggae, Jazz, Blues, New Age, World Music, and a whole lot of Electronica: House, Tech house, Minimal, Trance, Dance, Drum and Bass, and Goa trance. 

Unlike some of my previous setups I can't really point out forte points for music types, it sounds good on just about anything. The ribbons might be the only exception left since they like strings a lot but somewhat scream on poorly recored Dance and Trance. 





Boostedrex said:


> Nice review! I've been curious about these subs. It's a shame I can't talk my wife into letting me do an IB install in her G coupe.
> 
> I'll be looking forward to hearing these at the BBQ this coming summer.
> 
> Zach


I'm not going to make any big changes, what u see is what will get driven down there. I hope I'll make it out of my car this time to hear other setups :laugh:


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## WLDock

cvjoint said:


> Current models should have a diamond finished basket. It is a more attractive silver/black unit.


I could not agree more!









Great review and glad to hear the subs perform as advertised. Anyone considering running IB should look at these. You did a great job in getting those in and things look nice as well.

I have been back and forth on rather or not I should run one or two? But, given the theoretical numbers and also what you posted I really think one will do it for me even though my car is larger (300M). John states that 300 watts should take these to max but I am torn right now if I want to supply 360 watts or 600 watts? I really would like to use the lower power as it would simplify my system down to two 4 channel amps. The higher power setup will require three amps and right now I am leaning towards that...as I have allways used modest power but want some impact this time around.

Myself, I was set on using a W15GTi but the heft and depth of that driver creates more of a challenge. With these IB15's I can bring my baffle wall in closer to the seats and there are no worries of the overhanging weight like that of the W15GTi. Anyway, It is much too cold here to get things rolling but I am getting inspired (Thanks to reviews like this!) to purchase a heater for my garage so that I can go to work.

Thanks again for the review!


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## AWC

Excellent review. I appreciate the time and effort it took to create an understandable and articulate review of a product we'll all be paying attention to.


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## nickgonzo

Looks like a mean setup you have there, nice review and love the pics


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## kenk

Looks like a good choice for large IB. Hopefully I can get a more thorough listen at the meet on the 3rd. Last time I heard it I think there was only one and it was moving some violent bass air


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## cvjoint

WLDock said:


> I could not agree more!
> Great review and glad to hear the subs perform as advertised. Anyone considering running IB should look at these. You did a great job in getting those in and things look nice as well.
> 
> I have been back and forth on rather or not I should run one or two? But, given the theoretical numbers and also what you posted I really think one will do it for me even though my car is larger (300M). John states that 300 watts should take these to max but I am torn right now if I want to supply 360 watts or 600 watts? I really would like to use the lower power as it would simplify my system down to two 4 channel amps. The higher power setup will require three amps and right now I am leaning towards that...as I have allways used modest power but want some impact this time around.
> 
> Myself, I was set on using a W15GTi but the heft and depth of that driver creates more of a challenge. With these IB15's I can bring my baffle wall in closer to the seats and there are no worries of the overhanging weight like that of the W15GTi. Anyway, It is much too cold here to get things rolling but I am getting inspired (Thanks to reviews like this!) to purchase a heater for my garage so that I can go to work.
> 
> Thanks again for the review!


Well if you want to use a single sub 360w is plenty. Your trunk is already larger and if only one sub is going to use all that airspace it's even easier to push it to xmax. I doubt mine ever saw anything over 300w. I have them at the -12db setting on the Alpine gain control, the Polk amps are switched to low input setting, the gain is at 60%, and I only go up to 5db up on the subwoofer control. 

I looked at the JBL sub too. I'm not sure it is better in any regards when compared to the AE. The shorting ring implementation in the IB15 seems to make a better job lowering inductance than the ultra deep differential drive motor. For that much mounting depth I would like to see at least 25mm of throw, but the review on this site is uninspiring unless off course the Klippel can't measure it correctly. And it does weigh quite a bit more, although for a torque monster like the 300M I wouldn't worry about it. I'm sure the JBL driver sounds good, I quite a fan of Harman products. 

I owed this review a long time ago but I couldn't bear the risk of reviewing a low distortion driver without an MLS plot. For one, I'm always underestimating the output of well build drivers, I have to see an SPL meter to believe it's playing loud. Motor noise, high inductance and distortion can easily be misinterpreted as additional output.


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## cvjoint

kenk said:


> Looks like a good choice for large IB. Hopefully I can get a more thorough listen at the meet on the 3rd. Last time I heard it I think there was only one and it was moving some violent bass air


LOL really, I must have been slacking off. I know for sure I fried an amp when I had the Idmaxes and there were only two working.


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## mvw2

Yay, some AE lovin' <claps>

It's nice to see some use and a review of their 15" IB. It makes me wish I had a car with a trunk again.


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## cvjoint

mvw2 said:


> Yay, some AE lovin' <claps>
> 
> It's nice to see some use and a review of their 15" IB. It makes me wish I had a car with a trunk again.


Design an IB setup for the hatch/wagon vehicle! I already have an innovative approach to designing one in my Toyota Supra. Yes, I don't have the car yet, this Ph.D. takes a life time to finish. :knife:


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## DonovanM

Thanks for taking the time to review these subs with such detail


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## chad

These are the straight IB15's not the "car version" that they were coming out with right?

Glad to see you like them, I see 4 in my future this year for the "rig in the shop revamp" and For some reason I'm rather supportive of AE, I like what they are doing and their ideas.

As for the appearance being a bit stark... nah, not in my eyes, I think they are beautiful!


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## chad

These are the straight IB15's not the "car version" that they were coming out with right?

Glad to see you like them, I see 4 in my future this year for the "rig in the shop revamp" and For some reason I'm rather supportive of AE, I like what they are doing and their ideas.

As for the appearance being a bit stark... nah, not in my eyes, I think they are beautiful!


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## thehatedguy

I think they are the car version.


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## SteveH!

Acoustic Elegance • View topic - Automotive IB15-4ohm now available

found this on their forum. may help answer.


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## cvjoint

This is the car version. It has been released for quite some time now. The other ones would have breathing problem in my trunk I think. I've completely sealed off the trunk this time, no breather flaps, even the taillight fixtures are buried heavily under dynamat. 


I'm not surprised you would find these attractive Chad, you've spent some time with PA gear. I didn't think the Idmax is a good looking piece either, but that didn't stop me from using them. It's quite alright if it serves its purpose, and even more so if it's a functional design.


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## bassfromspace

What's mounting depth on these?

Also, how do they seem to be holding up to 500w/per driver?


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## cvjoint

I think they are about 8 inches or so deep, I'll check soon. 

I'm not sure how they sound with 500w/ I can tell you they rock at 200w/. Ultimately I think all that matters is how many liters they displace at xmax and at what THD. You'll have a hard time finding a better driver. Efficiency is a nice bonus so that you headlights don't dim at idle, or worse, while driving.


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## thehatedguy

I don't think THD is that important with subs. We really can't hear distortion that well at those frequencies.


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## cvjoint

I've had my share of non musical subs, either they had too much motor noise or sounded just plain annoying. I could tell you the difference between my Idmax subs and these and they test the same FR wise.


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## Grim0013

Thanks for a great review. I have a pair of these that will be getting installed in my 87 Grand National this winter, to be powered by a Phoenix Gold MS-2125. Should be around 360W+ per sub. From what John over at AE has stated, combined with what you're saying in your review here, that should be plenty of power, eh?

After reading your review, I am really getting excited to get this install rolling. Just gotta get the transmission taken care of, then I can get to work on the audio phase of the project.

Here is my overall system plan, in case you have any thoughts/input.... (you seem to be one of the ones who know their ****)

*PG MS-275* (50W x 2 @ 8 ohms) -> *2 x ID HLCD* (109db) (Way more power than I need, but this is the smallest amp of that series, effectively. Looking at either the CD2 or Ultra w/ full-body horns)
*PG MS-2125* (255W x 2 @ 2 ohms) -> *4 x ID OEM 6.5* (91db)
*PG MS-2125* (720W @ 2 ohms bridged) -> *2 x AE IB15* auto version (91db)

I really wanted to make sure I had solid mid-bass to match up to the IB15s in order to provide a solid transition to the horns. As a result, I keep finding myself worried about not having enough output in the sub-bass range. The more I hear about the IB15s though, the more I think the 720W should be plenty enough output to provide desirable overall freq. response at the highest output levels I would actually want to listen to.

I suspect that I should spend a good bit of time vibration damping my trunk. A Grand National is no small car, so I imagine sealing the trunk up as well shouldn't pose any issues due to limiting available airspace?

I agree with some of the others on this thread too - I think these are very handsome drivers. Nothing fancy, but nothing ugly about them either. They look like elegantly designed, very functional subs. Well, I have to admit, the magnet is a little ugly, but nothing a little polishing can't overcome. Of course, I have been away from car audio for a long time. The huge and/or exotically styled drivers so often seen these days were far from common in the early 90s.

Thanks again for the review,
Brad


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## ErinH

Thanks for doing this.

Currently, I'm trying to decide between a pair of these and a pair of the Fi 15" IB sub (IB3). I've got 2 IDmax12's that I plan to replace these with so your comparison is perfect for me; gives me a great idea of what to expect output wise. 

Any further thoughts on your setup now that you've had it for a couple weeks?


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## cvjoint

bikinpunk said:


> Thanks for doing this.
> 
> Currently, I'm trying to decide between a pair of these and a pair of the Fi 15" IB sub (IB3). I've got 2 IDmax12's that I plan to replace these with so your comparison is perfect for me; gives me a great idea of what to expect output wise.
> 
> Any further thoughts on your setup now that you've had it for a couple weeks?


I've had them since the summer, since then I put at least 10k miles on the odo = lots of listening time. I would try the CSS 15 or the AE (IB or AV) drivers. The IB15s are reference drivers to me they don't color on virtually all material I've run through them and have lots of linear output to bring a smile on my face.

The only downside to my setup as I see it is that it sounds ideal with the trunk empty but the more cargo space is occupied the higher the Q and therefore loses a bit of low end. I might try the AV series in the future to get a compromise, a bit low heavy when empty which is fine with me. Most people have a larger trunk then mine or at least fewer amps, maybe use one sub, or still have the trunk vented to the outside so this downside might not be there.


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## ErinH

Thanks.

I've been talking with John via email and I"m going to go ahead and order a set of these. My trunk is pretty roomy, and I still have the trunk flaps open, so hopefully I'll be alright. I rarely put anything back there, and when I do, I'm not worried about losing any sound quality because people are with me and we're talking. 

Thanks again for the review, though. I'm sure coming from a dual 12" setup I'll be more than happy with these.


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## bboyvek

Sorry for bumping an old thread, but i didnt feel like starting a new thread. So my question is has anyone tried the 10" or 12" versions of it and what are your impressions about them? i dont feel like i can fit a 15" sub back there.


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## IBcivic

just received 3 x ib twelves ...will be installing them this up-comming week


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## bboyvek

awesome, write a review as soon as you can


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## cvjoint

They've been working on smaller versions? Didn't know...must check it out. My buddy has been waiting for an IB18 for about...3 years now.


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## thehatedguy

I got one IB12-4 here today too.



stinky06 said:


> just received 3 x ib twelves ...will be installing them this up-comming week


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## thehatedguy

Yeap, can do 10s and 12s. Bout the same price as the 15s.



cvjoint said:


> They've been working on smaller versions? Didn't know...must check it out. My buddy has been waiting for an IB18 for about...3 years now.


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## cvjoint

thehatedguy said:


> I got one IB12-4 here today too.


Post a review, that would be sweet. What other gear are you putting in your new car?


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## cvjoint

thehatedguy said:


> Yeap, can do 10s and 12s. Bout the same price as the 15s.


Question is: can they do 18s for the price of 15s?


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## thehatedguy

Keep on they will be doing 15s, and 10s for the price of 18s...lol. They did just release the TD18H, so it might not be a far stretch to see an IB18.


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## bassfromspace

Fi has an IB 18.


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## I800C0LLECT

oh wow. Before I started looking at DIYMA I was going to purchase AE speakers 

These look great. If I ever get tired of the R12 I'll be grabbing an AE


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## I800C0LLECT

cvjoint said:


> Question is: can they do 18s for the price of 15s?


I wouldn't put it past AE to do that. If you check out their forums they make custom speakers when asked. Unfortunately, they never returned my email :mean:

That's why I didn't purchase them.


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## bboyvek

come on!!! some one post a review!!
Also does any one know the dimensions for the ib12 or ib10?


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## cvjoint

bassfromspace said:


> Fi has an IB 18.


Imo you don't actually want a true IB sub. The AE is optimized for a car trunk. Real IB subs can require several times that volume especially in 15 and larger sizes. Besides the AE has lots of motor goodies. 



I800C0LLECT said:


> I wouldn't put it past AE to do that. If you check out their forums they make custom speakers when asked. Unfortunately, they never returned my email :mean:
> 
> That's why I didn't purchase them.


They weren't like this before. They might be sorting things out right now. It seems like there is a dedicated forum respondent too.


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## Dr.Telepathy SQ

I spoke with Beth at AE last week. The car IB 15" is $149 plus shipping. $100 per sub if you purchase 4 subs. Shipping from WI to most areas of the lower 48 states will run between $12-$18 if purchasing 1 sub. The wait period for building-avg 2-3 weeks.


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## thehatedguy

What do you want to know in particular?



bboyvek said:


> come on!!! some one post a review!!
> Also does any one know the dimensions for the ib12 or ib10?


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## KAPendley

I may be sticking my foot in my mouth here, and I understand why it is an IDMax comparison, since that is what you were using before, but it seems a little unfair.

You are comparing a 100 dollar sub to a 499 dollar sub, and were using HALF the power one ID Max needs? I would think that explains your slopes.

Not saying the AE sub is a bad sub, but I dont think it trumps ID. I think you should have doubled the power on the ID subs you had previously, but of course, that would have been much more than 200 dollars.

Just sayin.


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## thehatedguy

He was IB with the Maxes...and it doesn't take a ton of power to get the Maxes to reach full excursion IB. 300 watts to a Max IB and she will pretty much max out excursion.

On paper there are things about the AE sub that would make it more attractive for IB usage.

Then there is the weight savings.

Andy, go by Joey's and get him to show you the sub I brought up there today. Very impressive build for the price point.


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## KAPendley

thehatedguy said:


> He was IB with the Maxes...and it doesn't take a ton of power to get the Maxes to reach full excursion IB. 300 watts to a Max IB and she will pretty much max out excursion.
> 
> On paper there are things about the AE sub that would make it more attractive for IB usage.
> 
> Then there is the weight savings.
> 
> Andy, go by Joey's and get him to show you the sub I brought up there today. Very impressive build for the price point.


Not knocking it bro, but you know Im an ID fan boy. And I never did IB with them and I didnt take the power into account for that, so I stuck my foot in my mouth. lol


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## thehatedguy

I love them too...I would make the Accord shake with the 3 maxes IB. Mo powerz is good though...I always had a little on tap for them.


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## cvjoint

thehatedguy said:


> He was IB with the Maxes...and it doesn't take a ton of power to get the Maxes to reach full excursion IB. 300 watts to a Max IB and she will pretty much max out excursion.


Very true. I'm pretty sure even in a sealed alignment on the right frequency you would reach full _linear_ output with 500w. You'd be surprised just how little power we use on a regular basis, I would say no more than 50w to my AE drivers on average.

I don't think in this case the price reflects anything, it's quite the opposite, the AE is a better build driver. I enjoyed my IdMax subs but in all honesty going back would be a bit of downgrade in just about every aspect (technology, fidelity, sensitivity, light weight, extended response on both ends, maybe output is on par, I can't really tell without another DB test but I'm not risking it - I broke my baffle with the Maxes at 135db at 20hz)


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## The Drake

Dr.Telepathy SQ said:


> I spoke with Beth at AE last week. The car IB 15" is $149 plus shipping. $100 per sub if you purchase 4 subs. Shipping from WI to most areas of the lower 48 states will run between $12-$18 if purchasing 1 sub. The wait period for *building-avg 2-3 weeks*.


I talked with John and he said:

"the issue right now is that the new frames we got are not the same 12 spoke frames as the old ones. I can't do IB15's with them"

I asked him what the ETA on when they will be ready and he said:

"not sure yet... frames usually take 3mos, well 2mos min, 30days to make, 30 days on the water"

He said he might air ship some more in but he wasnt positive about that, so judging by what I heard from John directly, it can take 5 months before you see your subs if you ordered today....

If it wasnt for such the long wait I would have certainly gone with AE IB15's


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## thehatedguy

That's why I had a 1/4" steel baffle welded to my car when I had the 3 Maxes...whole lotta moving going on.


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## cvjoint

The Drake said:


> I talked with John and he said:
> 
> "the issue right now is that the new frames we got are not the same 12 spoke frames as the old ones. I can't do IB15's with them"
> 
> I asked him what the ETA on when they will be ready and he said:
> 
> "not sure yet... frames usually take 3mos, well 2mos min, 30days to make, 30 days on the water"
> 
> He said he might air ship some more in but he wasnt positive about that, so judging by what I heard from John directly, it can take 5 months before you see your subs if you ordered today....
> 
> If it wasnt for such the long wait I would have certainly gone with AE IB15's


The AV15 geared for large box would be really nice to if you want to use two. They would model very well in a car trunk. The only reason I'm not doing that right now is to save weight and because I really don't need the extra output.


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## cvjoint

thehatedguy said:


> That's why I had a 1/4" steel baffle welded to my car when I had the 3 Maxes...whole lotta moving going on.


I had a double 3/4 MDF baffle but I got lazy and didn't use metal L-pads with screws in the chassis for the top, just expanding foam. It ripped immediately and then the baffle flexed to death.


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## IBcivic

cvjoint said:


> I had a double 3/4 MDF baffle but I got lazy and didn't use metal L-pads with screws in the chassis for the top, just expanding foam. It ripped immediately and then the baffle flexed to death.


 holy jit....thanks for the heads up!!! i am putting in 3 x ib12's as we speak.


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## The Drake

cvjoint said:


> The AV15 geared for large box would be really nice to if you want to use two. They would model very well in a car trunk. The only reason I'm not doing that right now is to save weight and because I really don't need the extra output.


Now ya tell me, after I just ordered a single Fi IB318.... lol



thehatedguy said:


> That's why I had a 1/4" steel baffle welded to my car when I had the 3 Maxes...whole lotta moving going on.


Thats a nice idea, wish I had access to a welder and knew how to use it. But even when I had my 2 IDMAX's with double 3/4" MDF baffle I never had any trouble with it vibrating and flexing, at least that I could tell.


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## captainobvious

stinky06 said:


> holy jit....thanks for the heads up!!! i am putting in 3 x ib12's as we speak.


Hey Stinky, did you get the subs installed yet? How about a review on those IB12's ?


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## IBcivic

i wish....i have been to busy globe trotting for work....i am definatly getting too old for this kinda work. but i have 2 full weeks of free time comming up mid july. keep an eye out for my build thread.this is pretty much ,where i left off weeks ago, before being sent off to south east asia.


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## shadowfactory

So what's this 'Apollo' upgrade that adds almost 50% to the price?


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## bboyvek

wondering the same question, its not like a care coz i have my ib12 already installed, i just need to power it up, and i may finally do that tomorrow, yay


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## thehatedguy

AE Speakers --- Superb Quality, Unforgettable Performance, Definitely.


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## captainobvious

cvjoint-
Excellent review. Thanks for posting this.
Looks like I know which sub I'll be using in my setup


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## gjmallory

cvjoint said:


> Imo you don't actually want a true IB sub. The AE is optimized for a car trunk. Real IB subs can require several times that volume especially in 15 and larger sizes. Besides the AE has lots of motor goodies.


Are you saying that with the AE, I can break the 3x Vas rule? I have a vw cabrio with a 7.6 cubic ft. trunk...that is beggin for this sub if that is the case. Do you think that it would work?


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## cvjoint

^ Model your trunk as a sealed enclosure. None of us can get true IB in a car and these subs are not true IB subs, they are basically large sealed drivers. 

You trunk is good for one IB15, or two AV15, or 4 IB12. Also keep track of what you put in your trunk, it will increase your Q! Just noticed you have a softop too. Check our my newest thread on the S2000. See if you have a rear deck like mine, it's pure sex for IB use!

I'm on the verge of going for 3 IB12s in my S2000. These things are unbeatable.


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## fish

Everytime I go back & reread this thread I come so close to pulling the trigger on a couple of these. I know I shouldn't be, but I'm afraid I'll be disappointed with the output.


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## alachua

Model what you are using now, then model the new ones. If you know what your actual output is, you can get a delta between the modeled response and the actual to give you an even better idea. Worst case scenario, watch the classifieds for a set to come up used and give em a try, if you don't like them you will most likely only be out shipping costs.


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## cvjoint

The AE IB is unbeatable/$/watt/lb. If you need more output look at the AV series. Once you factor in sensitivity it should be comparable to any sub on the market.


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## ErinH

2 AE's have _plenty_ of output. I have mine toned down quite a bit.


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## cubdenno

Would 2 15's equal the in car output of a single 15 in a ported enclosure?

Bare in mind, I am running my TC with a 1500 watt [email protected] ohm and I can get low 140's in output.

Curious because would love to have some usable trunk, less weight. Wife likes the current output.


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## ErinH

hard to say for sure. I'm pretty much willing to bet on it.
depending on how you ported your box, you'll probably get much lower response with the IB setup. One thing is for sure, you wont have to have a huge friggin' box to get down to 30hz effortlessly.


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## ryan s

(A mini-review...I started typing before cubdenno replied :laugh

As the owner of one of George's (former) subs, I will say that anyone concerned with output shouldn't be...unless you want to hit 150dB. Or trying to seek the rainbow unicorn that is "SQL" 

I've simply never heard a sub that was better...it's better in _every way_, in fact, than any sub I've used. It has so much of everything; goes deep, "hits" pretty hard, and can hit double bass kicks. People think big subs are for "booming" or "getting loud" but that's simply not the case. 

This sub, in my opinion, is as if you have you have one of each 8" through 15" subs playing the frequency they do best. There is nothing it can't play...there is no slop...there is no lag in transients...there is no one-note loudness...

I don't believe I could sway someone away from an AE sub, aside from availability issues...if they needed a sub tomorrow. I also don't believe there are better IB subs out there for the money. With the sub and my two heavy amps, I'd venture to say I've added about 65lbs to my trunk, and the weight is right between the strut towers and above the gas tank. The baffle and sub weigh 35lbs together. Quite amazing.

John at AE says that with cabin gain, a single 15 can hit *142dB @ 20Hz*. Just so happens I also have 300w on tap :laugh: I'd like to fit another, but it's not happening at this time.


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## fish

bikinpunk said:


> 2 AE's have _plenty_ of output. I have mine toned down quite a bit.


Yeah, don't you have like only 70-100 watts going to each of them?


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## ErinH

yep. it's like this:
If I remove my subs and put a 4ohm dummy load on my sub amp, play a 0dB tone and measure the output (having not touched the gain from where it was on the amp/dsp) at about the same volume I typically listen to my music at I get about 90w @ 4ohm. 

I think everyone who has heard my car has always had something great to say about the subs. My car's geometry has caused me headaches but it's not the subs' fault.


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## cubdenno

Very interesting.....

In car With the port firing forward I get a nice flat 30-70 hertz passband with about 2-4db deviation. The problem is that the enclosure is a single reflex bandpass and is holy fekk huge. I meter at the windshield sealed at like 143.4, with the box turned around port firing to the rear, I gain 1.5 db. (I bought the design from Pete Kulicki. Everything he has stated about in car response has been spot on. Including firing orientation output.) 

I enjoy my system played loudly, It gets every type of music played through it. Just at high volumes. No competing just enjoying. Now though, there are times that I would love to be able to use the trunk. Wife approves of the rolling concert hall and does not want to sacrifice output. Plus, with the teenager son rapidly approaching a louder vehicle than mine, I have to stay at least competitive.I will have to seriously ponder this. My only hold back is that with the current economy, it is more difficult to sell off items if I don't like them.


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## alachua

With the limited availability of the IB15, they are rare to last in the second hand market unless you are trying to get full retail for them.


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## cubdenno

alachua said:


> With the limited availability of the IB15, they are rare to last in the second hand market unless you are trying to get full retail for them.


Also good to know...

Thanks for the info!! All of you!


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## cvjoint

cubdenno said:


> Would 2 15's equal the in car output of a single 15 in a ported enclosure?


I would say only below your tunning frequency (30hz you say?) or above 70hz or so where thermal becomes more important. 



cubdenno said:


> Plus, with the teenager son rapidly approaching a louder vehicle than mine, I have to stay at least competitive.I will have to seriously ponder this.


Just test at a different frequency. If he runs ported test below his tunning frequecy. If he runs sealed test at 100hz. You see where this is going. With any competition if you want to have the best chance winning you want to have the winning design. It's not likely that's the lowest weight, or the best sounding. IB is a best all around solution for the car environment unless you have a minvan or hatchback. However, unless you are going for thermal tests at high frequencies it's not going to win you any trophies.


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## gjmallory

Thanks Big Time!! This forum is Freakin Awesome!!


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## amungal

Thanks for the great review. It's encouraging to see that IB setups are still very much alive and well.


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## zzvelik

Anyone here did a direct comparison between the AE & Fi 15" IB sub in their vehicle? I'm torn between the two from all that I've read, but it seems that the Fi has a quicker production line than AE. I need to get one soon for my setup. Here's my IB thread on BimmerForums:
e39 free-air / infinite baffle vs enclosure box sub setup - Bimmerforums - The Ultimate BMW Forum


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## cvjoint

zzvelik said:


> Anyone here did a direct comparison between the AE & Fi 15" IB sub in their vehicle? I'm torn between the two from all that I've read, but it seems that the Fi has a quicker production line than AE. I need to get one soon for my setup. Here's my IB thread on BimmerForums:
> e39 free-air / infinite baffle vs enclosure box sub setup - Bimmerforums - The Ultimate BMW Forum


FI are popular, but why? I have no idea what's special about them.


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## bassfromspace

cvjoint said:


> FI are popular, but why? I have no idea what's special about them.


Greater displacement for one. Availability for two. Pretty big differences, IMO.


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## cvjoint

bassfromspace said:


> Greater displacement for one. Availability for two. Pretty big differences, IMO.


Well more displacement is good but the sensitivity is far lower, the increase in displacement will all go towards creating more output. 

You guys are way too hardcore. Car audio is not a necessity, some people go through their entire lives without ever using a subwoofer. There are lots of folks who would wait for a bit to get a high quality product. It's like saying restaurant food is worse than fast food because it's not made before you order. I wouldn't say availability is high on the feature list for most, especially since lots of products are available whenever. I'm not sure it's a strenght of FI, more like a weakness of AE but that's not what we're talking about. Or is it?


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## bassfromspace

cvjoint said:


> Well more displacement is good but the sensitivity is far lower, the increase in displacement will all go towards creating more output.
> 
> You guys are way too hardcore. Car audio is not a necessity, some people go through their entire lives without ever using a subwoofer. There are lots of folks who would wait for a bit to get a high quality product. It's like saying restaurant food is worse than fast food because it's not made before you order. I wouldn't say availability is high on the feature list for most, especially since lots of products are available whenever. I'm not sure it's a strenght of FI, more like a weakness of AE but that's not what we're talking about. Or is it?


Subjective argument. 

Millions of businesses rise and fall based on their of mastery of timely delivery. It's called customer service. Maybe you don't care about customer service.

As far as efficiency, I don't see where the AE is heads and shoulders above the FI in efficiency. Power is cheap, however, and we're talking IB setups.


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## ItalynStylion

I haven't heard an AE just yet but here is my experience so far.

I build an IB mount for the lexus IS300 guys. It gives them the ability to mount any 12" woofer IB through the stock ski pass. At this point I've told them that the main two subs I'd suggest are the Fi IB3 12" and the AE IB12.

Both are great performing subs no doubt. I think the Fi will out hammer the AE and the AE will edge it out on SQ. The AE's efficiency edge is significant (in the case of the 12's) but I think the Fi is what most people will have a hard time blowing up. And for first time IB users that is something to consider.

I've talked to Scott at Fi numerous times and they have proven to get product into the hands of my customers. John is notorious for not being able to get on the phone (or email) and his build time is quite a bit longer. I'd be lying if I said my customers didn't notice these things. John is a great guy and has a fantastic product but he needs a solution to increase customer service.


(Pic of my IB mount)


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## cvjoint

^I'll agree with that. For entry level car enthusiasts that don't care about linearity this subwoofer may be able to push more air. I think I talked about the same thing in this thread when comparing to the IdMax. If I were to guess, the AE's suspension maxes out shortly after xmax. 

AE is a small business, they need to make this trade off to continue building great product at low prices. If they get successful enough I'm going to guess the price will go up and availability will be much better. Since I'm on a budget I'm more than happy to prepay and wait a bit for a sub that has ALL the design features I'm looking for: good amount of xmax, low resonance suspension, shorting rings, low motor noise, low depth, light weight, pro audio ruggedness and low cost. I mean once I have the product, availability is not an issue, I will have EVERYTHING that counts to me. 

There are lots of high throw available subs. Imo I would always go for an XBL2 driver with shorting rings for such an application. The BL is very flat on these and make an effort to reduce LE. Out of all the monstrous subs I've used the XBL seems to be the only bottomless one. But then there are so many things to account for: xmax in itself doesn't mean much if you don't have decent sensitivity,extremely low motor noise, beefy coil, more power, a free flowing basket, more alternator amps to create more power, a car and a baffle that handles heavy magnet structures etc. Out of all the ways one can get more output, high xmax, while cool to look at, it's probably the hardest to implement.


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## bassfromspace

ItalynStylion said:


> I haven't heard an AE just yet but here is my experience so far.
> 
> I build an IB mount for the lexus IS300 guys. It gives them the ability to mount any 12" woofer IB through the stock ski pass. At this point I've told them that the main two subs I'd suggest are the Fi IB3 12" and the AE IB12.
> 
> Both are great performing subs no doubt. I think the Fi will out hammer the AE and the AE will edge it out on SQ. The AE's efficiency edge is significant (in the case of the 12's) but I think the Fi is what most people will have a hard time blowing up. And for first time IB users that is something to consider.
> 
> I've talked to Scott at Fi numerous times and they have proven to get product into the hands of my customers. John is notorious for not being able to get on the phone (or email) and his build time is quite a bit longer. I'd be lying if I said my customers didn't notice these things. John is a great guy and has a fantastic product but he needs a solution to increase customer service.
> 
> 
> (Pic of my IB mount)


I'll be starting my IB build soon. Be prepared.


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## zzvelik

ItalynStylion said:


> (Pic of my IB mount)


Nice mount. Do you have any other pics from your install?


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## ItalynStylion

bassfromspace said:


> I'll be starting my IB build soon. Be prepared.


Suuuweeeet!



zzvelik said:


> Nice mount. Do you have any other pics from your install?


That's actually a friend's car that we designed the system around. I sell it coated in LineX like that one and also carpeted like this next picture. And no I didn't do the carpeted one's install (customer did it himself) so mounting the sub with the terminals like that was not my doing lol

To be honest, I think both subs are great and you can't go wrong with either. The AE, as stated, will likely sound better, cost less, but take longer to receive. The Fi sounds great, costs a little more, and will hit your door in about a week.


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## T3mpest

I'm a huge AE fan, so take this with a grain of salt. your not losing much XMAX with the AV, like a decibel or 2 of output, it's really price vs time. If you have the time to wait for the build the AE IB's are just killer for the price. Plus the AE's do have a fancier motor with the sleeved pole and all.


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## WLDock

ItalynStylion said:


> The AE, as stated, will likely sound better, cost less, but take longer to receive.


 The best thing to do while waiting for your AE to get built is to start building the wall and deadning! I really need to get going on my install. Going with a single 15...


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## bassfromspace

T3mpest said:


> I'm a huge AE fan, so take this with a grain of salt. your not losing much XMAX with the AV, like a decibel or 2 of output, it's really price vs time. If you have the time to wait for the build the AE IB's are just killer for the price. Plus the AE's do have a fancier motor with the sleeved pole and all.


Are you sure about the first part? Xmax on the Fi is almost double the AE. We're talking sealed boxes.

As far as shorting rings are concerned, I'm not convinced they provide audible benefits due to subwoofers being high distortion beasts by nature.


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## cvjoint

Well output is easy right? All I do in my installs is to use lots of large subs to fulfill the requirement. Getting a low distortion sound is far harder. You can't quite double up on drivers and lower some sorts of distortion. There are all sorts of benefits from having lots of copper in the motor that go beyond extending bandwidth. 

Since the AE subs are very high sensitivity the increased xmax on the FI should have negligible benefits. How low do these actually equal eachother in output? 30HZ? Then there are heavy AE subs that have more output like the AV series. 

The AE imo is unrivaled. The FI however does have fierce competition. Why would you ever get the FI over the CSS? Not all xmax is created equal, the CSS will have a very flat BL by comparison AND shorting rings.


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## 94VG30DE

ItalynStylion said:


> I build an IB mount for the lexus IS300 guys. It gives them the ability to mount any 12" woofer IB through the stock ski pass. At this point I've told them that the main two subs I'd suggest are the Fi IB3 12" and the AE IB12.
> 
> (Pic of my IB mount)


Any chance that peice could be adapted to fit an AE IB15? I think there is one FS in the classifieds that has been tempting me for quite a while. I was going to ask about a price, but I assume that info is also posted on my.is.


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## ryan s

The cutout for the IB15 is 14" and the total diameter is 15.5" including the gasket. I don't know the size of the IS mount, but there you go  Well, it's rear-mounted so...15.5" to squeeze in between the mounting bolts.

Man, it was unbelievably nice to have even measurements when making a baffle...none of this "finding the radius of 13.968" to make a cutout" nonsense :surprised:

I'm having deja vu right now...I think I've posted that before :mean:


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## thehatedguy

You can do a 15 in the IS300 like that...I know because that's how I did my IS300.

Couple with the AEIB15 and one with the IDQ15.


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## 94VG30DE

thehatedguy said:


> You can do a 15 in the IS300 like that...I know because that's how I did my IS300.
> 
> Couple with the AEIB15 and one with the IDQ15.


Are those 4 mounting bolts with the AEIB15 through the OEM bolt holes? This car is so spotless that I am super neurotic about doing anything that involves permanent modification, including drilling holes. I'm sure in a couple years that feeling will wear off, but right now it is brutal and uncomfortable  

FYI, the thread on my.is where Stylion discusses his baffle mounting solution is here: The IS300 Infinite Baffle 12 Setup - my.IS - Lexus IS Forum

Also, did you try turning it around and putting the magnet through the ski-pass hole? I would have to fab up a neat little cover, but it's just a thought to concerve a little bit of trunk space. I can easily screen the dome from the back to keep stuff in the trunk from hitting it, but I can't as easily do that to the basket/motor aseembly. 

I swear to you guys I'm going to eventually stop asking inane questions that I could measure myself and just start buying drivers. But right now I am more comfortable being an armchair-audiophile.


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## thehatedguy

Yeah, I'm winslow on my.is and every other forum...I posted my pictures somewhere around post 30.

No, you can't use the factory holes for the 15s. 12s, not a problem. You can even stick the magnet of the AE IB12 inside the ski pass.

It's a Toyota...drill a couple of holes.

If ou hate the thought of drilling 4 holes, you would get sick after seeing me extend the harnesses for the fuseblocks in the kicks to move them out of the way so I could make proper kicks for midbasses...lol. FWIW, there is an ass ton of room down there in the kicks after you spend 9 or so hours solderng and extending wires.


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## 94VG30DE

thehatedguy said:


> It's a Toyota...drill a couple of holes.
> 
> If ou hate the thought of drilling 4 holes, you would get sick after seeing me extend the harnesses for the fuseblocks in the kicks to move them out of the way so I could make proper kicks for midbasses...lol. FWIW, there is an ass ton of room down there in the kicks after you spend 9 or so hours solderng and extending wires.


haha yeah my harnesses aren't going anywhere, although that does sound like a lot of fun. Like I said, I've only had the car a month, it's the nicest car I've ever owned, yada yada yada. My other car had plenty of "custom" solutions implemented, I'm waiting on this one. Right now I'm looking for a broken factory amp so that I can steal the connector off the board and wire into it to make my own wiring harness, so that I don't have to cut or splice (crimp-on splices take up a TON of space and are ugly) any of the stock amp wiring.


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## thehatedguy

In all fairness, I kept mine pretty much bone stock for the first year I had mine. And it's the nicest car that I've owned as well...and my last car was cut pretty heavily. With this car I decided to do the system in a way that I was never without tunes.

Why do you want to make your own wiring harness?


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## subwoofery

Stereo Clarity » IS300 Infinite Baffle for IS300 for those interested 

Kelvin


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## 94VG30DE

thehatedguy said:


> Why do you want to make your own wiring harness?


As I understand it, the way the wiring works for the factory head unit (IS300 for those that are just joinging us) is HU > amp > speakers. Each ">" is a connector. I think I am leaning towards leaving the factory front stage in for a bit and just adding a sub and head unit, which means I could just wire up a wiring harness that goes straight from the aftermarket head unit to a female amp "connector" that I can't seem to find, and into the original connector OUT of the amp to the rest of the system. That way I bypass the stock amp, have active control of my factory front stage from the head unit, and I can return everything to stock in about 15 minutes if needed. Also it means I don't have to run wire to the doors. 

Sorry to go so OT in a thread about the AEIB15. I hear it's a pretty sweet sub! Just trying to decide how much output I need on whether I can go IB12 or IB15. I've never had an infinite baffle in a trunk setup before, so I know I have to be a little bit more careful with overexcursion than I have been in the past.


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## cvjoint

I am still getting a lot of PMs about this thread all the time. There are a few things I should point out for viewers. 

The IB series is disconitnued. John at AE is selling an upgraded version for a bit more, not sure how much, if anybody wants to look it up post it here. 

I recommend the AE AV series over the IB or the upgraded one for users that don't mind extra weight. The AV series is likely to perform quite a bit better at the cost of 17lbs extra, 32lbs total. 

I am now using the AE IB12s in my new car and I have posted several in car tests on this site and others. You can see the performance of the 12s in the http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/105045-southern-california-test-bin.html. I might also post some tests in one of these two threads:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-member-build-logs/106133-2001-honda-s2000-single-seat.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/86039-check-out-pics-let-me-know-what-you-think-2010-a.html


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## thehatedguy

AV line is pretty much on hold right now too. The IB replacements are about $100 more than the IB Line was.


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## jrs1006

Subscribed to this one.


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## slpery

You're about 3-6 years too late buddy.


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## audiodelic

Reviving an old thread.

I am looking to get two 12 inch sbp or one 15 inch sbp driver that AE offers. I am not in the position to do infinite baffle in my car just yet, I plan using AE sbp subwoofers in a sealed box configuration, are these woofers a great choice for sealed box configuration also or should I be considering other alternatives like idmax, Xcon. I’m looking for great transient response, tight and fast sq bass. I am used to a SVS SB 12 at home which is also a low distortion 

Would appreciate some advice from you diyma experts
Cheers and thanks in advance


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## captainobvious

They are good for a variety of applications- including sealed box, however they do require more airspace than some which are designed for smaller sealed boxes. They likely have higher sensitivity than those other subs though too, so trade-offs.

If you think you may do IB down the road, I would recommend it since it can perform well in both scenarios.


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## cvjoint

audiodelic said:


> Reviving an old thread.
> 
> I am looking to get two 12 inch sbp or one 15 inch sbp driver that AE offers. I am not in the position to do infinite baffle in my car just yet, I plan using AE sbp subwoofers in a sealed box configuration, are these woofers a great choice for sealed box configuration also or should I be considering other alternatives like idmax, Xcon. I’m looking for great transient response, tight and fast sq bass. I am used to a SVS SB 12 at home which is also a low distortion
> 
> Would appreciate some advice from you diyma experts
> Cheers and thanks in advance


Sealed box subs are a whole 'nother animal. What I look for in sealed box subs are powerful motors and stiff suspensions. The system has to have a low Q and suspension that can withstand box pressure without rocking modes. I know we usually want high Xmax as well, and that's nice to have but that's usually a function of how much SPL you want. You can also use multiple low xmax woofers. No matter what you do have to have the motor and the suspension for it. 

I recommend Seas Design for basically any sealed box arrangement. I don't think there is a better choice out there.


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## offtime

audiodelic said:


> Reviving an old thread.
> 
> I am looking to get two 12 inch sbp or one 15 inch sbp driver that AE offers. I am not in the position to do infinite baffle in my car just yet, I plan using AE sbp subwoofers in a sealed box configuration, are these woofers a great choice for sealed box configuration also or should I be considering other alternatives like idmax, Xcon. I’m looking for great transient response, tight and fast sq bass. I am used to a SVS SB 12 at home which is also a low distortion
> 
> Would appreciate some advice from you diyma experts
> Cheers and thanks in advance


I also use these 12 IB AE subwoofers in my car and from my experience they required quite a lot of air to work properly. In my case that meant they would sound worse with 3 in my trunk than with 2 (IB configuration). The trunk just wasn't big enough for the 3 of them.


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