# Madisound + LEAP



## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

Is it worth it to pay the $30 to madisound to design a MTM? Is someone on here able to do it? I'd rather pay a forum member than madisound because it would allow me to explain better what I am looking for as far as sound, and better meet my goals.


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

Is this for home? I think 30 bucks is pretty reasonable. Also, don't they match drivers when you order them?

What specific info are you looking for that you think they wouldn't give you while designing it?


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

Yeah, it's for home.

I keep wavering on this 5.1 vs 2.1 debate.

But then I got to thinking about how I would use it.


1) Mostly for TV/Sports, which is recorded in stereo (I guess anyway)
2) Video games, again, recorded in stereo or mono (I play the Wii, not Halo, etc)
3. Movies, but here is the kicker....I mostly watch documentary type movies....which is vocal...I can't really think of many movies I watch that will be greatly enhanced by 5.1

/aside


The reason why I asked here is because I like dealing with person to person vs. person to company. 

Here is one Q I would ask:

I currently have 30" Sanus stands that I currently use for bookshelf. They are nice heavy duty steel jobbies. Would many MTMs be too tall? And if I had suffucient subwoofer power and given my listening needs, would a simple 2 way setup be more practical.


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## CBRworm (Sep 1, 2006)

I am curious about madisound's LEAP crossovers as well. The only complaint I have heard about them is that they don't have baffle step compensation. I don't know exactly what effect this would have. Certainly if I designed a crossover it would not have BSC either. 

I suspect that with well behaved drivers their crossovers are better than your mid level mainstream brand.


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## The Drake (Apr 3, 2007)

I was asking about crossovers for a MTM and they said there was a $25 fee for two-way then $30 for the MTM and then they would discuss xovers and prices. That wasnt even with the price of the xover? I was like wth? Thats just too much for me, I would rather just go with the cheap crossovers at parts express...


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

jddavid123 said:


> I was asking about crossovers for a MTM and they said there was a $25 fee for two-way then $30 for the MTM and then they would discuss xovers and prices. That wasnt even with the price of the xover? I was like wth? Thats just too much for me, I would rather just go with the cheap crossovers at parts express...


I don't know much about audio at all, but I don't think that is a wise idea.

When I look and research these projects, I notice how the crossover changes if you flush mount vs. surface mount drivers. The odds of PE getting everything lined up to the drivers you have is low, IMO.

But then again, I dunno. It just seems like in all the tutorials and designs, they never use the off the shelf parts. I have considered it, as it would make the process far cheaper and easier. I just don't think it will be correct.


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

yeah i would not buy a prefab xover for a DIY set like that. use xover pro and build your own at the least. it's like buying expensive subs and putting them in a cheap prefab box. the crossover is very important to have done correctly. I designed and made my own crossovers for a HT setup, and with the time I took to figure how I wanted it, I think $30 is more than reasonable.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

What program did you use to accomplish this?


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## ATB (Aug 30, 2005)

What are you looking for? 

If you want to learn about x-over design, by all means start on a project from scratch with some help from others. But if you are looking for a good sounding DIY MTM to build, why not select one of the many existing designs out there? Spend some time over at the DIY section of htguide...those guys spend months tweaking x-overs, not just running the drivers through LEAP like Madisound apparently does. 
.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

Well, I know this is gonna sound a bit wierd, but here goes.

a. I am undecided to go MTM vs. 2 way. If the only advantage of MTM is midbass response, then I will just go 2-way. My primary concern is midrange/highs and let the subs take care of less than 50 hertz.

b. I want to use a ribbon. I like the way they look in the cabinet. I know that may sound queer, but they are pleasing to my eye.

c. The stage needs to be wide. When people come over, they spread out kinda. I am interested in a wide sound stage.

d. I love how my Cal27 tweeters sound. Even though they are silk, they are still rather agressive. But not to the point where my ears hurt. My friend says they are slightly bright, I pefer dynamic.

e. I am unsure whether I can get satisfactory results out of a 2.1 system. I am thinking a well designed, well executed 2.1 system can sound better for movies than a thrown together 5.1 system. 

f. I want the cost of the drivers and crossovers to be less than $500.

g. I need them to be on bookshelfs because I like the stands I have and want to keep using them. They are currently 30" tall.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

I guess I should add

h. If I go 2.1, I will have 120w x 2 @ 8 ohms. I like the upper end HK model pretty well.

i. I want it to be decently loud. I am more interested in a clean and clear sound than out and out loudness.


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## Amish (Oct 2, 2006)

Like mentioned before - check over at htguide.com, they have a good number of "mission accomplished" designs, I know of one that uses the 4" Tang Band Ti and a ribbon tweeter in a MTM config. Those guys not only design a crossover via modeling but listen and tweek along the way. And most importantly, if you have questions you can post and get answers for free. From what I've seen, the crossover is the most important part of an assembled speaker - going the cheap prebuilt route with PE should really only be considered last.


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

personally, i'm with you on 2.1. I had surround sound for a while, and there just wasn't that much content in movies to make it worth it. I don't think it's all that cool sounding, etc.

It was nice in Halo, b/c you could hear people walking up behind you, etc. It gave me a killer advantage. Things like need for speed sounded cool too.

My big hangup was that ideally your front speakers should all match, which can get expensive vs. a 2 way setup.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

Amish said:


> Like mentioned before - check over at htguide.com, they have a good number of "mission accomplished" designs, I know of one that uses the 4" Tang Band Ti and a ribbon tweeter in a MTM config. Those guys not only design a crossover via modeling but listen and tweek along the way. And most importantly, if you have questions you can post and get answers for free. From what I've seen, the crossover is the most important part of an assembled speaker - going the cheap prebuilt route with PE should really only be considered last.


I will give it a looksee.

I'd rather not do MTM. I'd rather spend my money on drivers than crossover parts.


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

Honestly i think a 2.1 system will suffice for what you want to do but im bias because thats what im doing  Have you thought about a 3-way (midbass, midrange, and tweeter)?

Or a possible 2-way with a ribbon and and a solid 7 or 8, i will also be building a Seas CA21RE/TV and BG Neo3 with the help of the friendly people on the PE forum.

A 5.1 setup will start to get pricey once you take into account xovers parts and a more capable receiver or amps.


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

if you want to do 5.1, i'd do one of the projects from PE.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

azngotskills said:


> Honestly i think a 2.1 system will suffice for what you want to do but im bias because thats what im doing  Have you thought about a 3-way (midbass, midrange, and tweeter)?
> 
> Or a possible 2-way with a ribbon and and a solid 7 or 8, i will also be building a Seas CA21RE/TV and BG Neo3 with the help of the friendly people on the PE forum.
> 
> A 5.1 setup will start to get pricey once you take into account xovers parts and a more capable receiver or amps.


I would be fine with a ribbon and the 7/8. I just kinda like how they look and they are supposed to be good for making the stage wide.

Do you have a link to the specific project you are considering?


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

I think 2.1 is fine. As far as Madisound is concerned, I have heard several favourable reviews. You can request BSC if you would like it (you can request pretty much anything there). Is the $30 worth it? Yes, if you don't know how to do it or can't find someone else to do it for free. But there are a number of people here who can do a design without a problem using entirely free programs (FRD Consortium) or even LEAP if you prefer (I don't know how many people actually have LEAP, but I do). The only challenge there is that the person doing your crossover design would not have the drivers in hand to measure thiele/small parameters or take FR, CSD, THD, etc. measurements. Now that probably doesn't matter to you, personally, but it is an advantage that the folks at Madisound have.

The absolute easiest route is to build based on existing plans, as others have suggested.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

Put since I am not seeing a whole lot of what I am looking for, then Madisound seems the route.

And I guess it would be better if they built the crossovers for those particular drivers.

Sounds like a pretty good deal. I may give them a shot.


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## Xander (Mar 20, 2007)

Check out these sites for well designed DIY speakers.

BSC is used to compensate for the lack of boundaries to boost lower frequencies when placing a speaker more in the open. Usually it is rated between 0 and 6 db. No BSC is used when a speaker is against surfaces, or in a TV stand. 6 db of BSC would be used with a speaker in the open because the lower frequencies are spread out more, while the higher frequencies are more directly aimed forward. So you need the BSC to bring the lower frequencies up to match the higher frequency levels. And you can also do levels inbetween.

Many of the designs for these DIY speakers have varying degrees of BSC, and I know that you can contact some of these guys and ask for a slight redesign. It's no big deal to them.

And it's free for the design!

I will be building the MTM using the Dayton RS150 and Seas tweeters designed by Chris, known as CJD on the htguide and avs forums. You can find that here:

http://www.eldamar.net/audio/rs150mtm/

Here are some very good designs from Zaph, lots to choose from

http://www.zaphaudio.com/index.html

Here is a Dayton based WTMW and TMWW design:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=22393


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

Xander said:


> Check out these sites for well designed DIY speakers.
> 
> BSC is used to compensate for the lack of boundaries to boost lower frequencies when placing a speaker more in the open. Usually it is rated between 0 and 6 db. No BSC is used when a speaker is against surfaces, or in a TV stand. 6 db of BSC would be used with a speaker in the open because the lower frequencies are spread out more, while the higher frequencies are more directly aimed forward. So you need the BSC to bring the lower frequencies up to match the higher frequency levels. And you can also do levels inbetween.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the links.

I checked out the zaph links and others.

The more I look at it, the more I think about just going two way with a 7" mid and a ribbon.

I appreciate the comments on what baffle step is. I had no idea and it seems like I would need it based on where I am putting the drivers.


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