# Best 3" wideband off axis



## redsun (Sep 2, 2010)

I promised myself I'd never be back but here I am.

I'm going to be installing in a new 2017 super duty. 

The plan is full deadening, Helix p six mk2, IDQ 12 sealed under rear seat and active "two way" up front with a wideband on the a pillar.

I'm going to build pillars but I want to keep this as stealthy as possible so keeping the speakers off axis is going to be pretty important.

It looks like the audible physics stuff is pretty awesome but pricey. 

What other drivers should I be considering that don't need a tweeter and do well off axis?

Thanks!


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

I have a pair of Audible Physics NZ3 with AAT tweeter transducers that I could make you a good deal on. PM me if interested.


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## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

Not sure on the speaker suggestion - just perked up when I saw the 2017 Super Duty (target vehicle)  - I'm assuming you're keeping the Ford Sync head unit? If so there's some good detail on how to use ForScan utility to reprogram the ACM (audio control module) to effectively remove the factory EQ and crossovers - worth a mention at least.

Please do a build thread, and post lots of pictures along the way.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

The AP wideband is one of the cheapest out there. But I’m not sure how they do off axis. 
I don’t think any do well off axis.


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## redsun (Sep 2, 2010)

Unix: can't make any promises on the build but I'll try. The cab of the 2017 super duty is the exact same as the cab on the 15-18 F150. Install/cabling will be the same.

I've already purchased the pac amppro for the build. I'm going fiber into the Helix amp.

DC/Hertz: I'm in pensacola too


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## mrichard89 (Sep 29, 2016)

I've heard a few trucks with the hybrid audio unity 3" in the dash firing directly up into the windshield and they sounded great. I know you plan to aim them across the dash, but I image that they would do fairly well, especially for only $199. Both vehicles also used the P six Mk2


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## bnae38 (Oct 3, 2015)

c3cx


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

A 3" speaker will beam at 4,500hz, so really no 3" is going to be good off axis if you aren't using a tweeter. They aren't designed to be tweeters, and if you try to force them into tweeter duty then you need to keep them on axis. Why don't you run a traditional 2-way?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

bnae38 said:


> c3cx


This. 

If you are planning to install off axis, I would look for a concentric driver like the C3CX or one of the Morel Integra 402 drivers. It simplifies the installation like running a single wide band driver, but allows for better off axis performance. 

If you insist on a single wideband driver and keeping it off axis, I would definitely make sure that your midbass can play up plenty high and mate with one of the smaller wideband drivers (<2.5") to help minimize beaming. On that front, I would look at the AP Ram 6.2 Q package.


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## redsun (Sep 2, 2010)

I really like the look of the c3cx but I just can't get over the cost. I'd like to think I can get a good used pair of something for a couple hundreds dollars. I'm putting my money in the amp and sound deadening. I've got everything else.

I have a pair of ID XS 28 tweets that are still part of the design plan. Simple two way with an rs180. I really like the idea of 250 HZ on the dash and not in the door. It seems like a lot of that can be overcome with tuning, etc.


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## redsun (Sep 2, 2010)

I also read some old reviews of the AP NZ3 with the AAT and others in those lines and several folks thought their off axis response was as good as anything they'd heard.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

redsun said:


> I really like the look of the c3cx but I just can't get over the cost. I'd like to think I can get a good used pair of something for a couple hundreds dollars. I'm putting my money in the amp and sound deadening. I've got everything else.
> 
> I have a pair of ID XS 28 tweets that are still part of the design plan. Simple two way with an rs180. I really like the idea of 250 HZ on the dash and not in the door. It seems like a lot of that can be overcome with tuning, etc.


Your last paragraph is contradictory to your original post. Are you or aren't you planning to use the XS28 tweeters? If you are, just make sure you have the processing power and amplifier channels and get yourself a solid midrange driver to meet your needs. 

Otherwise, cough up the big bucks for the C3CX if you want something that small, or look at Morel in the $250-$550 for a 4" concentric driver.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

redsun said:


> I also read some old reviews of the AP NZ3 with the AAT and others in those lines and several folks thought their off axis response was as good as anything they'd heard.


I'm a big fan of AP, and the NZ3 Albe is an excellent wideband driver. Arguably, one of the best on the world. But, depending on how far axis you are (based on your post, it seems you'll be pretty far out) it isn't going to perform the way you want. Even the SLA Acoustics site, which is the US distributor, recommends up to 20 degrees off axis if you plan to use it without a tweeter. 

Now 20 degrees isn't a "brick wall" figure, but you may be close to, if not exceeding 90 degrees off axis on the near side driver. Depending on your actual install, of course. With the AAT, you might be able to compensate for dips in the response with some EQ work. 

If you are on FB, I would recommend asking the question and giving a description of how you would plan to install them on the Team Audible Physics Page.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

off axis.. none. go a different route. c3cx is a good suggestion


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## redsun (Sep 2, 2010)

I've currently got the xs tweets in hand. Before I go nuts trying to blend/install them, I'm looking at options that hopefully will achieve better sound.

I think I can get each speaker aimed at the opposite b pillar without being too far out of plane looking.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Look at the RAM 2A on the SLA Acoustics site. A friend has these and they may do a good job based on what you are looking for. 

I still agree with the others above that integrating tweeters is best (or a coax/cocentric), but without one, I would definitely look at this driver.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

be careful of blanket statements like "you have to have a tweeter" Tweeters do beam as well after all...

Take a look at the 3/4" peerless OX20SC00-04, which is a really nice little dome tweeter BTW. The response from on axis to 60* off axis at 10k is about 8db drop. Look at a lot of response charts and you'll see tweeters starting to beam around 3-4k. 

having said that, location can help a wideband a great deal. For example the first setup in my car had scan 10f's in the dash corners firing up. Because of this, beaming didn't matter, but it was all reflected out of that corner anyway. I did actually have a pair of tweeters, but at one show one went out, so we compensated by muting that channel and removing the crossover on the mid on the top end. left the other tweeter playing. 

Two teammates couldn't tell. The judge could only tell slightly on some tracks. If I wasn't competing I wouldn't have run the tweeters at all. 

The point is, blanket statements are not always correct.

Another good example of breaking this "rule" is Matt Hall's Mercedes. wideband drivers at the pillar base, no tweeters. One of the best sounding cars around and if you see the setup, that driver side speaker is at least 60 degrees off axis. passenger side probably a good 30-45.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

pocket5s said:


> Another good example of breaking this "rule" is Matt Hall's Mercedes. wideband drivers at the pillar base, no tweeters. One of the best sounding cars around and if you see the setup, that driver side speaker is at least 60 degrees off axis. passenger side probably a good 30-45.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

pocket5s said:


> be careful of blanket statements like "you have to have a tweeter" Tweeters do beam as well after all...
> 
> Take a look at the 3/4" peerless OX20SC00-04, which is a really nice little dome tweeter BTW. The response from on axis to 60* off axis at 10k is about 8db drop. Look at a lot of response charts and you'll see tweeters starting to beam around 3-4k.
> 
> ...


I don't recall seeing "you have to have a tweeter" anywhere in this thread. Nobody has made that blanket statement. We have, however, mentioned that a 3" will beam at a relatively low frequency, and if you have an understanding of beaming then you'll know that above that relatively low beaming point the frequency response drops like a rock. Of course tweeters beam, every speaker does, but a small tweeter won't beam until the upper limit of our hearing where there is little recorded information anyway. Beaming at 4.5khz is a completely different story. 

Some people make do without tweeters, and some do a better job than others, but a 3" midrange/wideband is not a tweeter and it will not do the job of a tweeter as well as a tweeter can. It might do the job well enough, but a 3" off axis will never do as well as a proper tweeter.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

That 3/4” tweeter I mentioned starts to beam well below “the upper limit of our hearing”. Many tweeters do.

I never said a wideband was a tweeter or could do the job just as well (assuming a good quality wideband vs a good quality tweeter). 

The point was sometimes a good wideband can work just fine in the right application, with the right install. 


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

pocket5s said:


> That 3/4” tweeter I mentioned starts to beam well below “the upper limit of our hearing”. Many tweeters do.
> 
> I never said a wideband was a tweeter or could do the job just as well (assuming a good quality wideband vs a good quality tweeter).
> 
> ...


A 3/4 tweeter beams a 18khz, which is the upper limit of our hearing.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

gijoe said:


> A 3/4 tweeter beams a 18khz, which is the upper limit of our hearing.


Funny, this 3/4" tweeter is starting to beam WELL below 18khz


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Another important thing that people don't mention enough when recommending a wideband driver sans tweeters is cone breakup and distortion. Wideband drivers can be effective and can be made to sound good in the right applications for sure, but be aware of the response characteristics of the speaker, it's polar response and break up issues. You *can* run a wideband solution but it is not always a good idea. And your output requirements may highlight any unwanted additional distortion due to the driver playing into its break up range at higher volumes.

Like Robert said, it can work well in some situations but you really need to consider the particular drivers and the vehicle application. That is key.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

captainobvious said:


> ...it can work well in some situations but you really need to consider the particular drivers and the vehicle application. That is key.


exactly, hence my "blanket statements" comment. testing, application, install, requirements, all play in to it, never mind tuning.

The same can be applied to tweeters as well. Some behave very well at the upper end and some, well, do not, especially off axis.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Yup.
That's why I spent a month demoing different drivers in the house and then another 3+ weeks demoing and experimenting in the car before install. You can achieve a lot of good things with the slap it in and tune around the issues approach, but to get it sounding really special it takes a commitment of time and experimentation like you said. That's probably the single biggest difference between my previous build in the Mazdaspeed 3 and this one in the new car.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I still want to try the AP 6.2. I think I have a good dash for it. 
Nice and deep, wide edges. Soft touch dash should help also.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

pocket5s said:


> Funny, this 3/4" tweeter is starting to beam WELL below 18khz


Beaming is purely related to the size of the speaker. The smaller the speaker, the higher it plays before beaming. I think you know this. The measurement graph you posted does not seem to show a 3/4" speaker, it matches the beaming of a tweeter twice that size. Anyway, it's not entirely relevant, the point is that a 3" might work, but off axis it is far from the best speaker for the job. It's not designed for that and will be beaming very early. Even 20 degrees off axis will have a huge impact on it's high frequency response, and a stealthy A-pillar install is likely to be more than 20 degrees off axis.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gijoe said:


> Beaming is purely related to the size of the speaker. The smaller the speaker, the higher it plays before beaming. I think you know this. The measurement graph you posted does not seem to show a 3/4" speaker, it matches the beaming of a tweeter twice that size. Anyway, it's not entirely relevant, the point is that a 3" might work, but off axis it is far from the best speaker for the job. It's not designed for that and will be beaming very early. Even 20 degrees off axis will have a huge impact on it's high frequency response, and a stealthy A-pillar install is likely to be more than 20 degrees off axis.


Beaming does start before the wavelength is the same size as the diameter of the cone. That statement comes most likely from the fact that it's not really noticeable until then. 

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

gijoe said:


> Beaming is purely related to the size of the speaker.


Not entirely. Yes, it WILL start there, regardless, but most start much sooner, as much as an octave below that point. Apparently you haven't looked at enough responses to know this.



gijoe said:


> The measurement graph you posted does not seem to show a 3/4" speaker, it matches the beaming of a tweeter twice that size.


Wrong. That is the response of a 3/4" tweeter. The peerless I mentioned earlier. Look at other tweeters' responses, they will be similar with regard to where the on and off axis response starts to diverge. 



gijoe said:


> Anyway, it's not entirely relevant, the point is that a 3" might work, but off axis it is far from the best speaker for the job. It's not designed for that and will be beaming very early. Even 20 degrees off axis will have a huge impact on it's high frequency response, and a stealthy A-pillar install is likely to be more than 20 degrees off axis.


That is only partially true. I depends greatly on the speaker in question. Yes off axis for a wideband may not be "optimal" and the general rule of thumb is to have a tweeter if the driver isn't somewhat on axis, but not all widebands are bad in that regard, it depends on how they behave off axis. 

The "20 degrees...huge impact" is an over generalization. The Tectonic Elements TEBM35C10-4 is a good example of a speaker that behaves very, very well off axis, displaying really good directivity. One could argue that a situation like that would be beneficial as it lowers the upper response in amplitude which you are going to do with a near side tweeter anyway. 

Again... blanket statements...


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

pocket5s said:


> Not entirely. Yes, it WILL start there, regardless, but most start much sooner, as much as an octave below that point. Apparently you haven't looked at enough responses to know this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're really just trying to argue aren't you? Nothing you have said has changed the simple fact that a 3" speaker is not designed to play full-range. They may have a wide range, but they are not tweeters, and they are not designed to be. We can discuss beaming all day long, and have a nice little pissing contest, but that doesn't change the point I've made all along and that you keep ignoring.

A 3" speaker is not the ideal speaker for the job. I already said it might work, but isn't the best speaker for the job. How can you argue that? The funny thing is, you posted a graph of what you say is a 3/4" tweeter that tanks off axis at 10K, yet you're telling me that you won't have a problem with a much bigger speaker. That doesn't make any sense at all. 

We can argue all day, but you clearly have a decent understanding of this stuff, enough to know that a 3" wideband is not a good choice if you mount them off axis and don't use a tweeter. Some have better responses than others, but they are not tweeters. You seem afraid of the big bad "blanket statements" but saying a 3" might work, but isn't the best tool for the job is a perfectly fair statement to make.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Apparently you aren't paying attention. Fine. 

BTW, here is the tweeter in question, look at it yourself.

https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-1002--tymphany-ox20sc00-04-spec-sheet.pdf


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

pocket5s said:


> Apparently you aren't paying attention. Fine.
> 
> BTW, here is the tweeter in question, look at it yourself.
> 
> https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-1002--tymphany-ox20sc00-04-spec-sheet.pdf


playing devils advocate here.. could just be the room theyre measuring in. idk. but, this is all thats needed for this conversation.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

It happens to be right around that 1.5 column in the chart you provided, I.e. 9khz. An octave below the 18khz the math says. 

That chart gives a much better representation of the diameter rule. 


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

pocket5s said:


> It happens to be right around that 1.5 column in the chart you provided, I.e. 9khz. An octave below the 18khz the math says.
> 
> That chart gives a much better representation of the diameter rule.
> 
> ...


you also have to take cone breakup into account. cone break up could be mistaken for beaming


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## redsun (Sep 2, 2010)

Thanks for all the insight folks.

Anybody got some c3cx's for sale cheap??


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## bnae38 (Oct 3, 2015)

redsun said:


> Thanks for all the insight folks.
> 
> Anybody got some c3cx's for sale cheap??



I paid $450 for mine on here, new.

I still think about that cost from time to time... BUT I've never regretted it


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I will just add that what Robert has said about tweeters beaming at lower frequency than typical calculated, as indicated by his posted graph, is not at all uncommon. With the fairly large database of driver frequency response plots that I have accumulated, it is clear that beaming *BEGINS* at a much lower frequency than what you see used in calculations. It is not at all uncommon to play drivers well beyond that point. And it is always the case with tweeters. 

The chart that Nick posted does an excellent job of illustrating this. You can see that there is negligible variation in the >4D and =2D columns. But you begin to see a noticeable difference in the 1.5D column. That is about where you will start to see the deviation between on and off axis response. That chart tracks very well when compared most of to the frequency plots that I have. Once you move into the D and 0.5D columns, that is where you'll notice a bigger difference between drivers of similar size. Some do a better job of controlling variation in frequency response a little higher up the scale and some go to absolute crap in a hurry.


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## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

All beaming issues solved!

https://www.tedweber.com/wbb12-4


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## Brules (Sep 22, 2017)

Dude, if you are going with the PAC unit to a Helix P Six - and using cheap tweeters - you are NUTS.

Spend the $ and get the C3CX......ask around here and I am sure you can find someone or a dealer who would be glad to make you a good deal on what is considered to be one of the best concentric off axis coax's made. 

I am going to use them in my 2016 Colorado doing exactly what you are, but my stock pods are aimed a little vs flat.


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