# Help me design a Carputer to take down the Bit One/ Dsp 6



## cvjoint

The Audisson Bit One and Zapco Dsp 6 seem to be the processors to beat right now. The Zapco has a better EQ. imo, and the Audisson is a 4 way with reported better sound quality. 

I'm trying to retire the Alpine H701 and from what I see the Bit One 'may' be better in terms of better on board chips. The features are nearly the same I think, slightly more EQ. gain 12db vs. 9db, and the Zapco has a more flexible EQ. 

Here's what I'm looking for:
Single DAC conversion
4 way capability
TA, Xovers, EQ minimum, time correction and phase correct filters definitely nice
Good quality DAC chip

The carputer I'm thinking to build:
Asio VST plug-in method
Dual CPU, one runs media one uses all cpu power for processing
I would obviously need optical out on the media CPU and Optical in on the processor CPU, from here 8 analog outputs out, that would keep it at 1 DAC conversion
Audio card: Audio track Prodigy 7.1 not sure what my pic would be for the media CPU to output digital, hopefully something simpler to save $

AUDIOTRAK - Prodigy 7.1 HiFi

CPUs, MP3 car already built Intel dual core Atom Mini-ITX motherboard:
Mp3Car Custom Car Computer (Preassembled Systems)

Now I've never built a computer before, most of this stuff is over my head. I'm particularly interested in whether the audio card would even fit on that Mini-Itx board and how, what's PCI etc.

Is the Prodigy card the one to have? I just picked it because it can do ASIO VST. The pre-outs are at 1V, would I need line drivers to boost voltage?

Are there any quirks in running carputers? The rest of the setup would be:
Dual touchscreen Lilliput double din 7 inch screens, one for processor CPU one for Media CPU
Optical driver up front between the screens
Volume Knob
Eventually I want to install GPS, Bluetooth, and my WinMls setup on the media CPU.


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## InterHat

How do you expect to do this: "TA, Xovers, EQ minimum, time correction and phase correct filters definitely nice?"

Also, I'm not a huge fan of cards that do outputs in this manner. I prefer the e-mu or m-audio breakout box style. I'm not sure if anything is lost or gained, but you go 1/4 L/R to RCA L/R. I prefer that to going from 1/8" stereo to 2 RCA's.

You've never built a computer and you're attempting this? :\ Make sure you have someone nearby who knows what they're doing... especially regarding cooling.


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## falkenbd

> Dual CPU, one runs media one uses all cpu power for processing


You don't really get to pick and choose what each CPU does.

A good sound card could do a lot of the work on board.

Dual CPU means extra heat, I'd get a cool running dual core.

I'm thinking you should head over to mp3car.com to get an idea of what you are actually going to do.


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## RMAT

falkenbd said:


> You don't really get to pick and choose what each CPU does.


Yes you do. It's called affinity.

Getting More Bang Out of Your Dual Processing Buck : Getting The Most Out Of Software By Properly Assigning Threads - Review Tom's Hardware

and that article was written 5 yrs ago.


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## falkenbd

RMAT said:


> Yes you do. It's called affinity.
> 
> Getting More Bang Out of Your Dual Processing Buck : Getting The Most Out Of Software By Properly Assigning Threads - Review Tom's Hardware
> 
> and that article was written 5 yrs ago.


Everytime I have used affinity, I've had issues or seen very little or no gain. (unless we are talking about LPARs on a mainframe)

Even on servers, it has worked out better for me to just let the system manage it itself. 

On the modern CPUs you won't have any issues running sound processing and media at the same time. Having extra ram will gain you more than controlling where individual processes run. Because honestly, the system knows better how to handle its resources.

Unless you make it so the ONLY thing that runs on one of the cores is the sound processing. You still share other resources.

5 years ago, it was different. With dual core technology, just don't worry about setting that up.


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## yermolovd

I researched for a while and ended up with this. about to install it any given weekend.
- jetway JNC81-LF mini itx board
- AMD 4850e (2.5Ghz, 45w model )
- 2 gbs
- M-Audio 1010LT soundcard
- Console for vst plugins and thuneau frequency allocator for processing.


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## yermolovd

Forgot to add I'm using logitech space navigator for knob.


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## braves6117

I'd be curious to see if you could defeat the user interface aspect of the BitOne as its awesome


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## cvjoint

InterHat said:


> How do you expect to do this: "TA, Xovers, EQ minimum, time correction and phase correct filters definitely nice?"
> 
> Also, I'm not a huge fan of cards that do outputs in this manner. I prefer the e-mu or m-audio breakout box style. I'm not sure if anything is lost or gained, but you go 1/4 L/R to RCA L/R. I prefer that to going from 1/8" stereo to 2 RCA's.
> 
> You've never built a computer and you're attempting this? :\ Make sure you have someone nearby who knows what they're doing... especially regarding cooling.


Carputers and Audissey are the only ways to get this sort of advanced processing. Audissey has drawbacks in terms of manual adjustment and that is why carputers are really attractive to me right now. I maxed out on the H701 processing, I know it inside out, I want something with more potential.

I'm not picky on how the RCAs make it out.

I have to start somewhere. I was hoping you guys would help 
I can guarantee a good power supply and cooling: I have 180amp alternator, largest yellowtop, 0 gauge wiring and multiple power runs, A/C cooling for the trunk. 



falkenbd said:


> You don't really get to pick and choose what each CPU does.
> 
> A good sound card could do a lot of the work on board.
> 
> Dual CPU means extra heat, I'd get a cool running dual core.
> 
> I'm thinking you should head over to mp3car.com to get an idea of what you are actually going to do.


I think you guys are misunderstanding me. I want dual motherboards. Whether they are both dual or quad core I don't know. I want one computer to run only processing. With hardware based processing this is supposed to use a lot of processing power, MP3car reccomends Pentium 4 dedicated processor or AMD. 


Here is what I figured, most of this software likes XP, I like XP vs. Vista for compatibility at the very least. Then if you want 32bit to get even more compatibility you are limited to 3gb ram. I guess my conclusion is one motherboard running 3gb of memory on a 32 bit processor will run out of steam fast with: audio processing, video playback, GPS, Bluetooth, and I would idealy want to run Hondata engine management to display all the sensors' output on board, so two video displays.



yermolovd said:


> I researched for a while and ended up with this. about to install it any given weekend.
> - jetway JNC81-LF mini itx board
> - AMD 4850e (2.5Ghz, 45w model )
> - 2 gbs
> - M-Audio 1010LT soundcard
> - Console for vst plugins and thuneau frequency allocator for processing.


Thanks Yermolovd! That looks kick ass, I'm particularly impressed by the M-Audio card with built in pre-amps and XLR connectors for my MLS setup. You seem to want to do everything on one motherboard, this is a bit two extreme for dual motherboard setup. You would have to loose all that HD audio gear on it right?




braves6117 said:


> I'd be curious to see if you could defeat the user interface aspect of the BitOne as its awesome


umm that's not hard. As opposed to a little volume knob and 4 memory buttons the Carputer can put all your processor power at the touch of your fingertips on a 7 inch screen or well unlimited size really. You may need to open a window but at least it's there. I don't see the carputer any harder to navigate than the Bit one or for that matter W200/H701 combo which to me is the best user interface in terms of car audio hardware.


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## cvjoint

durwood can't PM or email you


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## dbiegel

This is awesome, if anyone can do this its George.  I can't wait to see it as it progresses as a carputer is light years ahead of the outdated tech packaged in car audio products. It's been a while since I looked at it, but one thing I remember is how it beneficial it seemed to have hardware based DSP, to free up processing power for other tasks and also might offer better SQ. I'll take a look around and see what kind of new technology and software is out there now.


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## MarkZ

FWIW, running all those options (xover, delay, phase, L+R mix) on Console or Audiomulch for 8 channels pins my cpu usage to about 25% on a dual core pentium. So I really don't see what you're gaining by trying to do dual motherboards or whatever the hell it is you're talking about. 

As others have mentioned, the issue that you probably need to deal with more than anything else is extreme heat and extreme cold. Extreme heat makes you shut down. Extreme cold makes hard drives not like to boot up until they've spun for a little while.


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## jsun_g

It's been a long time since I messed with the internals of a computer, but I'd imagine you'd be able to run a stripped down version of Linux, buy a crapload of RAM (it's cheap) and have the entire OS/image permanently resident in memory, i.e. no loading up from hard drive. In case of any problems, you could have the BIOS try to load from an external source first (which you would have a backup media (CD, HD, network,...) handy to boot up just in case). Anyone tried this?


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## yermolovd

cvjoint said:


> Thanks Yermolovd! That looks kick ass, I'm particularly impressed by the M-Audio card with built in pre-amps and XLR connectors for my MLS setup. You seem to want to do everything on one motherboard, this is a bit two extreme for dual motherboard setup. You would have to loose all that HD audio gear on it right?


The setup should handle everything alright. I know durwood is using less powerful systemm and he's fine. Sorry I didn't understand about HD audio gear on it. What you mean by that? You mean the onboard audio on the mobo?
I especially liked this motherboard due to its tiny factor and pci slot, which isn't too popular on miniitx boards. The whole package is going to fit into a about 10x14x3 case if memory serves me right (cut up an old case). I didn't feel like hauling full sized mobo.

I don't think extreme cold is an issue that you will deal with due to your location, so you have one less headache. I actually am trying to hookup my ide hard drive through USB and boot off that (hd in between front seats, so I can take it out during winter time to avoid cold start problems).


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## cvjoint

That's about what I would expect it at, 25%. But what happens when you add another video screen running engine diagnostics, play video on the main one, run GPS and bluetooth at the same time? I know my laptop is a dual 64 bit AMD 2.2GHZ and 4 gb of ram and when I use two screens it takes a serious amount of processing. I just don't want to find out what happens to the audio processing when you reach high levels of usage, the equivalent of a window taking 5 seconds to minimize. 

It all depends on what you are trying to run on it. If it's just Winamp, single screen and processing I have no doubt a dual core can do it. I'm also afraid of demand spykes on the processor when programs need lots of processing quick. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but 32 Bit XP cannot run more than 3gb of memory so it's not unlimited even if I can get a quad core to solve processor needs.

Cooling is not a problem as mentioned before. It's hot as balls already in So. Cal. but the air conditioning keeps my trunk cool. I haven't lost a single amp. since I ran the pipes. Cold weather is likewise not a problem. Have you guys tried the 'rugged' harddrives on mp3car? I'm guessing they might take extreme temperatures better, either way the motherboards are only rated at 55C from what I saw.


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## cvjoint

yermolovd said:


> The setup should handle everything alright. I know durwood is using less powerful systemm and he's fine. Sorry I didn't understand about HD audio gear on it. What you mean by that? You mean the onboard audio on the mobo?
> I especially liked this motherboard due to its tiny factor and pci slot, which isn't too popular on miniitx boards. The whole package is going to fit into a about 10x14x3 case if memory serves me right (cut up an old case). I didn't feel like hauling full sized mobo.


I looked up the motherboard you posted and it said it comes with a 6 channel HD card with HDMI outs and stuff. That's what I meant by it might be wasted since you are getting the M-audio instead and a basic screen. But running a quad core on that would be really nice.


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## bobdole369

I just set up this mini-box (m350) case with PICO PSU for a project at work. Used a Zotac 7100 and I was just thinking about exactly that - how awesome a car CPU it might make with a better board. We are going to use it onboard a boat monitoring screen, but if one of these come with an optical out - especially if one of these mini-itx's comes with one of the Dolby functions (Dolby Home Theater - where the sound stuff actually encodes into surround) there is no reason to have any other sound card besides the onboard stuff. Well there are still better sounding analog cards I'm sure. The analog side of ALC889A (one of the decent HD audio onboard sound cards) has a very nice on-paper spec sheet, but I have yet to actually hear one put to some nice equipment.



> It's been a while since I looked at it, but one thing I remember is how it beneficial it seemed to have hardware based DSP, to free up processing power for other tasks and also might offer better SQ. I'll take a look around and see what kind of new technology and software is out there now.


CPU power and memory are very cheap. With onboard sound it's easy to do a lot of effects in software now. 



> Have you guys tried the 'rugged' harddrives on mp3car?


Solid state drives are cheap and have no rotating parts. Put OS and apps on that. 

You never write to them in this application (flash has a lifetime limited number of write cycles). Set it up and let it run, hibernate when the car shuts off to an external hard drive, which holds the media and is easy to put new stuff on.



> You don't really get to pick and choose what each CPU does.


You can make that happen (affinity) but you don't want to - the CPU does pretty well. I've only had to use it to play simcity 4 (doesn't like running on 4 cpus)



> But what happens when you add another video screen running engine diagnostics, play video on the main one, run GPS and bluetooth at the same time?


Engine diags are at their heart just serial data, sometimes with scaling and maybe some math. Quite simple to display, but that depends on the app you are running, might need cpu or graphics. Our boat stuff does some very good gauges and graphics, and uses a good amount of cpu, but not much help from the graphics card. GPS and bluetooth are the same thing too just serial data, if you have a map displayed that takes some CPU and a decent bit of RAM, but look how well even google maps works and that takes nothing. HD video is hard to display right with a slow cpu though. That might be worth another box dedicated to video. 



> I know my laptop is a dual 64 bit AMD 2.2GHZ and 4 gb of ram and when I use two screens it takes a serious amount of processing.


Don't want to start a cpu war, but boss uses a quad 2.4ghz intel and runs 4 screens + HDMI to a 42" LCD. And actually uses all 4 productively and its not slow (autocad and sketchup and solidworks). Runs out of RAM in xp 32bit more often.




> I want dual motherboards.


2 really small computers perhaps? 



> TA, Xovers, EQ minimum, time correction and phase correct filters definitely nice?


With Dolby certified boards - TA, EQ, TC are in teh software and done in the sound card. Lots of ways to do it in the player software too. It's a big deal and it works. 

I'd really like to find a way (I'm sure it exists, probably costs) to turn all 6 outputs on a 6channel out into crossed over stereo pairs (sub, rear, front mb, front mr, front hi, center).


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## cvjoint

bobdole369 said:


> 2 really small computers perhaps?
> 
> 
> 
> With Dolby certified boards - TA, EQ, TC are in teh software and done in the sound card. Lots of ways to do it in the player software too. It's a big deal and it works.
> 
> I'd really like to find a way (I'm sure it exists, probably costs) to turn all 6 outputs on a 6channel out into crossed over stereo pairs (sub, rear, front mb, front mr, front hi, center).


I mean that seems to be the better method. With two carputers there is no need to worry about upgrading any video card, there is more heatsink, I can use one hardrive to store and keep the processor computer hardrive empty and easy to handle, I won't run out of USBs, memory etc.

I'm not dead set on running two computers but build me one that can run all this gear on a XP 32 bit with a PCI audio card and dual screen. 

Here's how I plan to use a 7.1 card with Asio capablity to run 4 way stereo:

ASIO VST Plug-in Audio Tuning Method - MP3Car.com Wiki


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## falkenbd

I'd say try 1 computer, see how it turns out.

You could always run 2 computers [later] and a KVM switch - (since you don't always need to look at both of them)


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## cvjoint

Ok, let's say I want to run one carputer only. I need a small form motherboard that outputs two VGAs and has a PCI connection. The two VGAs have to be able to display two different sources at the same time 100% of the time. The PCI seems to be the only way to get a bitchin 8 channel out card with ASIO compatibility. Mini-Itx size is where I'm looking at to start. 

The problem as I see it from browsing tonight is that I can't find such a board. These Mini-Itx boards too often have the PCIe vs. the PCI that I need. Furthermore even with a DVI to VGA adapter it's not quaranteed to run dual source. I found one board with dual VGA and PCI though an extension port but the board only offered 1gb of memory, then I found a board that would run 3gb of memory and dual screen but didn't have PCI lol


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## bobdole369

> Ok, let's say I want to run one carputer only. I need a small form motherboard that outputs two VGAs and has a PCI connection. The two VGAs have to be able to display two different sources at the same time 100% of the time. The PCI seems to be the only way to get a bitchin 8 channel out card with ASIO compatibility. Mini-Itx size is where I'm looking at to start.
> 
> The problem as I see it from browsing tonight is that I can't find such a board. These Mini-Itx boards too often have the PCIe vs. the PCI that I need. Furthermore even with a DVI to VGA adapter it's not quaranteed to run dual source. I found one board with dual VGA and PCI though an extension port but the board only offered 1gb of memory, then I found a board that would run 3gb of memory and dual screen but didn't have PCI lol


Madman Audio

ESI GIGAPORT-HD USB 8 Channel Audio Interface -  USB Audio Interfaces- Audio Interfaces / Recording Systems- Studio & Recording- PSSL.com

At a glance I can't tell if it is supported by that particular software you mention. The mp3car idea seems to be EXACTLY what I'm looking to do. So I guess the ASIO stuff is the way to go.

If you weren't intent on chucking the perfectly good high quality HD audio sound - there are a lot more options available as far as software.

Lots of Mini-ITX's have very nice onboard geforce graphics perfectly capable of playing hardware accellerated video. 



> The two VGAs have to be able to display two different sources at the same time 100% of the time


Absolutely no problem with onboard video doing this. Some support 3 outputs. Set the display once in windows and it keeps working. 



> build me one that can run all this gear on a XP 32 bit with a PCI audio card


Again I ask "Why?" if its just to run that particular software, than you give up a cpu that is the size of a dictionary - and gain one 3 times as big, just to fit the audio card. If thats OK than fine. You have a lot more options.


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## cvjoint

bobdole369 said:


> Madman Audio
> 
> ESI GIGAPORT-HD USB 8 Channel Audio Interface*-* USB Audio Interfaces- Audio Interfaces / Recording Systems- Studio & Recording- PSSL.com
> 
> At a glance I can't tell if it is supported by that particular software you mention. The mp3car idea seems to be EXACTLY what I'm looking to do. So I guess the ASIO stuff is the way to go.
> 
> If you weren't intent on chucking the perfectly good high quality HD audio sound - there are a lot more options available as far as software.
> 
> Lots of Mini-ITX's have very nice onboard geforce graphics perfectly capable of playing hardware accellerated video.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely no problem with onboard video doing this. Some support 3 outputs. Set the display once in windows and it keeps working.
> 
> 
> 
> Again I ask "Why?" if its just to run that particular software, than you give up a cpu that is the size of a dictionary - and gain one 3 times as big, just to fit the audio card. If thats OK than fine. You have a lot more options.


Both those cards are Asio compatible so that is great. Those cards are obviously not PCI. With usb you tend to pay a bit more and then you have to convert all those power supplies and in the first case all those 1/4 plugs to RCA. For the price of the first audio card I can assemble a second motherboard. The PCI cards I looked at can do a heck of a lot more too, the built in DACs are better quality, more in/outs digital and analog, sometimes offer preamps for the mic, and in the Audiotrak card all DACS are swappable. USBs connections are are also rather filled with two touch screens, volume knob, Hondata etc. Would I even be able to get dual video dual source and both touchscreens working?

I had to create a double boot mode on my Vista 64 bit to have XP 32bit partitioned on the harddrive. There is a whole lot of software such as my WinMls that are essential to the build that are not Vista compatible. 

Looking at M-Audio's website the Delta 1010lt costs $200 less than the USB counterpart fasttrack ultra. Also consider these USB units take space outside the case, it is a separate unit just like a second motherboard would be! 

To update the requirements on the single motherboard carputer:
Mini-Itx motherboard
PCI connection
Dual VGA output, dual source (VGA, DVI ok too)
8 USBs
3gb memory to be compatible with XP 32 bit

USB audio cards will likely cost too much to make the single carputer cheaper at all, and it's also just as cumbersome as a second carputer taking up space and requiring a power supply modification. Same goes for USB video cards. The realistic approach is to find a motherboard that can do the dual screen with the built in Video card so I can use the PCI for audio, and the USBs for the other peripherals.


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## bobdole369

Dammit, lost the reply, was very, very long..

Anyhoo:

Newegg parts:

Shuttle SG31G2 - $195 Has regular PCI and PCIe x16 for video cards.

Intel Core2Quad Q8400 $185 (low end core2quad)

4GB Mushkin DDR2-800 (cheapest 1.8v memory right now) $43

OCZ solid-state disk drive 30GB $100

640GB external USB drive $90

Windows XP $135

dvd $43


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## bobdole369

Others:

Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 $95

You are at $900ish maybe some more for shipping for the PC.



750W inverter $255 or so. Just googled one up and I trust and use tripplite.


Powered USB hub adds 6 ports to give you 9 total $17

So I didn't look up screens, but I don't see any big issue with what you want to do other than the touchscreen, and you are looking at about $1300 total.

The equipment involved looks to be about the size of a multifunction printer or small laser printer. It won't fit in the glovebox or under a seat like say some of the mini-box stuff, but comfortably in a trunk or hatch.


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## coronamike

my 2 cents.

I have been using this to power my CarPC for the last 2 years. It takes the place of the power supply, no inverter needed. I have the PC set to hibernate so it goes down quickly when I turn the car off and comes up in 15-20 seconds from the time I turn the ignition on.

OPUS SOLUTIONS - Leader in Vehicle Computers and Mobile DC-DC Power Supplies

My CarPC is similar to the shuttle, SFF with PCI and PCIe slot, but different configuration. 

I am using this audio card, 

E-MU Systems - 0404 PCI - PCI Digital Audio System

The Asus Xonar cards are very popular right now too.

Newegg.com - ASUS Xonar D2 7.1 Channels 24-bit 192KHz PCI Interface Ultra Fidelity Sound Card with Complete Dolby/DTS Sound Technologies - Sound Cards

I am using a video card (forgot the brand) with dual monitor support (just using one monitor at this time)

The rest of the parts are: 
AMD939 Dual Core processor
1gb of memory 
160gb Hard Drive (IDE)
8 USB Connections on the Motherboard
Dynamix 8" widescreen touchscreen (powered by the opus)

My footprint is 8Wx12Lx6H and it sits in the trunk. 

It's been through 2 110+ degree summers with no problems. I have not attempted to do what you are trying but it sounds do-able with a similar configuration. I thought about a mini-itx pc but I found this offers me more flexibility with a slightly larger footprint. IMO a PCI slot is a must if you want good sound from a CarPC.


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## MiniVanMan

Doing a little research myself lately.

Here's what I'm finding. There aren't many boards with PCI, and dual video out. AMD boards seem to be the easiest to find.

Here's an AMD based board though.

Newegg.com - JetWay JNC62K AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 8200 Mini ITX AMD Motherboard - AMD Motherboards

If you prefer ATI graphics and would like HDMI for running the 60" plasma on your dash.

Newegg.com - JetWay JNC81-LF AM2+/AM2 AMD 780G HDMI Mini ITX AMD Motherboard - AMD Motherboards

Then you could do an M-Audio 1010LT in THIS case with the PCI bus extender.

4th Gen Mini ITX Case for Carputer Car PC with PCI Slot [MCS-BIC-PCI] - $97.00 : Mobile Computing Solutions: For Your Car PC Carputer and Kiosk Computer


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## bobdole369

I did not know about the Opus stuff. Nice that it looks to be standard ATX power supply sized!

Another possibility - I actually have one of these in my office, but we decided against an outboard PS for the boats, opting to use the pico ones from mini-box. Wow, I might recommend that we move from inverter power to one of those opus's when the situation calls for a shuttle. 



> IMO a PCI slot is a must if you want good sound from a CarPC.


Granted the 939 board you are using is 2 years old. HD audio has grown leaps and bounds since then. I used to think the same way. It all depends on the motherboards implementation. I do know that using an ALC889A(d) on a Gigabyte board with dolby home theater support is quite good (it does room correction and eq), but I haven't stacked it up against audiophile grade stuff head to head. 

Are you running any software to do xover or time correction? I'd really really like to use a PC as a primary source and have it handle the active xover. 



coronamike said:


> my 2 cents.
> 
> I have been using this to power my CarPC for the last 2 years. It takes the place of the power supply, no inverter needed. I have the PC set to hibernate so it goes down quickly when I turn the car off and comes up in 15-20 seconds from the time I turn the ignition on.
> 
> OPUS SOLUTIONS - Leader in Vehicle Computers and Mobile DC-DC Power Supplies
> 
> My CarPC is similar to the shuttle, SFF with PCI and PCIe slot, but different configuration.
> 
> I am using this audio card,
> 
> E-MU Systems - 0404 PCI - PCI Digital Audio System
> 
> The Asus Xonar cards are very popular right now too.
> 
> Newegg.com - ASUS Xonar D2 7.1 Channels 24-bit 192KHz PCI Interface Ultra Fidelity Sound Card with Complete Dolby/DTS Sound Technologies - Sound Cards
> 
> I am using a video card (forgot the brand) with dual monitor support (just using one monitor at this time)
> 
> The rest of the parts are:
> AMD939 Dual Core processor
> 1gb of memory
> 160gb Hard Drive (IDE)
> 8 USB Connections on the Motherboard
> Dynamix 8" widescreen touchscreen (powered by the opus)
> 
> My footprint is 8Wx12Lx6H and it sits in the trunk.
> 
> It's been through 2 110+ degree summers with no problems. I have not attempted to do what you are trying but it sounds do-able with a similar configuration. I thought about a mini-itx pc but I found this offers me more flexibility with a slightly larger footprint. IMO a PCI slot is a must if you want good sound from a CarPC.


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## MarkZ

Maybe I'm misreading some of this stuff, but...

* Why mini-ITX? I just bought a mini-computer, prefab.
* Why not USB or firewire sound? Then you don't have the PCI requirement. My USB card doesn't need external power either (the Gigaport mentioned above).
* FYI, I've been running "carputers" since 2000. I don't think I've ever had a hard drive failure. It's a non-issue, IMO. The temperature variations are probably more likely to kill it, but it sounds like you've got that under control.


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## cvjoint

MiniVanMan said:


> Doing a little research myself lately.
> 
> Here's what I'm finding. There aren't many boards with PCI, and dual video out. AMD boards seem to be the easiest to find.
> 
> Here's an AMD based board though.
> 
> Newegg.com - JetWay JNC62K AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 8200 Mini ITX AMD Motherboard - AMD Motherboards
> 
> If you prefer ATI graphics and would like HDMI for running the 60" plasma on your dash.
> 
> Newegg.com - JetWay JNC81-LF AM2+/AM2 AMD 780G HDMI Mini ITX AMD Motherboard - AMD Motherboards
> 
> Then you could do an M-Audio 1010LT in THIS case with the PCI bus extender.
> 
> 4th Gen Mini ITX Case for Carputer Car PC with PCI Slot [MCS-BIC-PCI] - $97.00 : Mobile Computing Solutions: For Your Car PC Carputer and Kiosk Computer


Nice find! The first one tends to have a lot of bad reviews regarding the USB. The second might be a go, I'll look into it. 

I have two questions, one about PCI:
Do I need a case that has a PCI slot? Do I always need that wire adapter? 

And second about USBs:
I see all these assembled cases have a nice metal wrap around the outputs, do the motherboards come with it so it's trimmed depending on what connections it offers? What if I want more than 4 USBs, is there a way to get 8 total on that panel without going external?




MarkZ said:


> Maybe I'm misreading some of this stuff, but...
> 
> * Why mini-ITX? I just bought a mini-computer, prefab.
> * Why not USB or firewire sound? Then you don't have the PCI requirement. My USB card doesn't need external power either (the Gigaport mentioned above).
> * FYI, I've been running "carputers" since 2000. I don't think I've ever had a hard drive failure. It's a non-issue, IMO. The temperature variations are probably more likely to kill it, but it sounds like you've got that under control.


Mini ITX because if it can be done than why get a larger one. It would fit the side well in the trunk without sticking out and I can shield it. The shuttle is more than twice the size of a mini itx, might as well get two Mini ITX.

External cards don't seem to have the same quality DACs. They cost double. Take up too much space, again might as well get two motherboards. Use an USB connection. Most need external power. PCI cards come with pre-amps, the external ones that do most definitely need power. 

That's nice to know. I've been reading on solid state vs. conventional harddrive and I really like the solid state concept. I don't plan to write on it too much so I will benefit a heck of a lot more with the first versus the later. 



bobdole369 said:


> Others:
> 
> Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 $95
> 
> You are at $900ish maybe some more for shipping for the PC.
> 
> 
> 
> 750W inverter $255 or so. Just googled one up and I trust and use tripplite.
> 
> 
> Powered USB hub adds 6 ports to give you 9 total $17
> 
> So I didn't look up screens, but I don't see any big issue with what you want to do other than the touchscreen, and you are looking at about $1300 total.
> 
> The equipment involved looks to be about the size of a multifunction printer or small laser printer. It won't fit in the glovebox or under a seat like say some of the mini-box stuff, but comfortably in a trunk or hatch.


See comments above regarding size motive and external parts. 

I have a 300w inverter allready on board but it would be on the other side of the car with hot equipment and lots of power gear, that's a lot of power runs, and I'd rather not if I can help it. 




coronamike said:


> my 2 cents.
> 
> I have been using this to power my CarPC for the last 2 years. It takes the place of the power supply, no inverter needed. I have the PC set to hibernate so it goes down quickly when I turn the car off and comes up in 15-20 seconds from the time I turn the ignition on.
> 
> OPUS SOLUTIONS - Leader in Vehicle Computers and Mobile DC-DC Power Supplies
> 
> My CarPC is similar to the shuttle, SFF with PCI and PCIe slot, but different configuration.
> 
> I am using this audio card,
> 
> E-MU Systems - 0404 PCI - PCI Digital Audio System
> 
> The Asus Xonar cards are very popular right now too.
> 
> Newegg.com - ASUS Xonar D2 7.1 Channels 24-bit 192KHz PCI Interface Ultra Fidelity Sound Card with Complete Dolby/DTS Sound Technologies - Sound Cards
> 
> I am using a video card (forgot the brand) with dual monitor support (just using one monitor at this time)
> 
> The rest of the parts are:
> AMD939 Dual Core processor
> 1gb of memory
> 160gb Hard Drive (IDE)
> 8 USB Connections on the Motherboard
> Dynamix 8" widescreen touchscreen (powered by the opus)
> 
> My footprint is 8Wx12Lx6H and it sits in the trunk.
> 
> It's been through 2 110+ degree summers with no problems. I have not attempted to do what you are trying but it sounds do-able with a similar configuration. I thought about a mini-itx pc but I found this offers me more flexibility with a slightly larger footprint. IMO a PCI slot is a must if you want good sound from a CarPC.


Do you know if the car designed psu's work only in the mini itx? It fit in your shuttle right?

What is your guys' taste on the M-audio 1010lt, Audiotrak Prodigy, Axus Sonar? I need 7.1 or 8 analog outs, the emu is out. This is the fun part! Well it's all fun 

What's your processor duty at?


----------



## ARCuhTEK

cvjoint said:


> umm that's not hard. As opposed to a little volume knob and 4 memory buttons the Carputer can put all your processor power at the touch of your fingertips on a 7 inch screen or well unlimited size really. You may need to open a window but at least it's there. I don't see the carputer any harder to navigate than the Bit one or for that matter W200/H701 combo which to me is the best user interface in terms of car audio hardware.


I believe he was talking about the software interface where one has many more controls than what you describe (which was the description fitting the Bit One DRC).

I love the Bit One software interface. The only thing I wish to be better the ability to assign xo points by physically entering a number.


----------



## coronamike

The opus PSU will work with any 24 pin input on any motherboard. The mb cannot tell the difference between a regular psu and an auto psu. Heck I think some guys are using this to run standard ATX boards in their cars. My CPU runs at 25% load most of the time. I currently running GPS, bluetooth, local LAN, and music storage on mine. No TA or Xover at this time

I modded my SFF (it's an Aopen EZ482 Cube PC). I pulled out the standard PSU and put the opus in.

You may want to look into these cards by Azuntech

Auzentech, Inc. Sound Cards. Audio You Can Believe In. World First soundcards for Music, HTPC, and Gaming.

The Asus cards have 7.1 out


----------



## Megalomaniac

Cvjoint you have the same gen accord as mine. check it out, i had a carputer too.









before:








after:

















Made it to look pretty factory. 

I was using an:
- Via M10000 miniItx motherboard
- GPS usb reciver
- Slot loaded dvd rom/burne
- 512 stick of ram
- iGuidance GPS software
- Centrafuse frontend


I kinda miss my Carputer at times. I bought a Delta 1010LT recently and it has 8 analog ins/outs each so I have the capability to do a lot of processing just using the computer alone. I could probally loop the radio through the computer Input to get radio too so it can process that too. or get an expensive radio card.


----------



## MarkZ

cvjoint said:


> Mini ITX because if it can be done than why get a larger one. It would fit the side well in the trunk without sticking out and I can shield it. The shuttle is more than twice the size of a mini itx, might as well get two Mini ITX.


Heh, now I'm even more confused. Why would you go to the hassle of putting in two mini-itx boards if a single board would work? The problem with mini-itx always tended to be that the speeds were slow in comparison to atx.



> External cards don't seem to have the same quality DACs. They cost double. Take up too much space, again might as well get two motherboards. Use an USB connection. Most need external power. PCI cards come with pre-amps, the external ones that do most definitely need power.


What about the one that guy was selling on here for about 6 months? He cut the price down to like $100. It was only 6 channel, which is the only reason I didn't pick it up myself. I don't remember the model, but you could probably find it on a search.


----------



## bobdole369

I found the group buy thread:

Still not "cheap" for me - but within reach. 

HippoHiFi Bloat

The specs are REALLY impressive, but your ears will be the judge. Considering this one for a couple different uses. I'd like to stack this up against the onboard stuff.


----------



## cvjoint

coronamike said:


> The opus PSU will work with any 24 pin input on any motherboard. The mb cannot tell the difference between a regular psu and an auto psu. Heck I think some guys are using this to run standard ATX boards in their cars. My CPU runs at 25% load most of the time. I currently running GPS, bluetooth, local LAN, and music storage on mine. No TA or Xover at this time
> 
> I modded my SFF (it's an Aopen EZ482 Cube PC). I pulled out the standard PSU and put the opus in.
> 
> You may want to look into these cards by Azuntech
> 
> Auzentech, Inc. Sound Cards. Audio You Can Believe In. World First soundcards for Music, HTPC, and Gaming.
> 
> The Asus cards have 7.1 out


So we have 4 audio cards to pick from so far, I'm making note of every viable recommendation. I'm glad the PSU works in just about everything, opens up a few possibilities. Another low cpu usage on lots of gear, very nice!



Megalomaniac said:


> Cvjoint you have the same gen accord as mine. check it out, i had a carputer too.
> 
> 
> Made it to look pretty factory.
> 
> I was using an:
> - Via M10000 miniItx motherboard
> - GPS usb reciver
> - Slot loaded dvd rom/burne
> - 512 stick of ram
> - iGuidance GPS software
> - Centrafuse frontend
> 
> 
> I kinda miss my Carputer at times. I bought a Delta 1010LT recently and it has 8 analog ins/outs each so I have the capability to do a lot of processing just using the computer alone. I could probally loop the radio through the computer Input to get radio too so it can process that too. or get an expensive radio card.


That is gorgeous work! I love the way you integrated the screen in! I may be a bit lazy to start off, I wanted to get it working first so I might just get the Lilliput screen off ebay that's double din already.

You are giving me some very nice ideas, not to mention I didn't even think the motherboard would fit in the back of the screen. I can A/C cool it even easier from there and frees up trunk room!



MarkZ said:


> Heh, now I'm even more confused. Why would you go to the hassle of putting in two mini-itx boards if a single board would work? The problem with mini-itx always tended to be that the speeds were slow in comparison to atx.
> 
> What about the one that guy was selling on here for about 6 months? He cut the price down to like $100. It was only 6 channel, which is the only reason I didn't pick it up myself. I don't remember the model, but you could probably find it on a search.


I'm no longer chasing dual motherboard idea. I'm convinced one will do. I'm still trying to make one Mini-Itx work especially since I found this:

Logic Supply - Leaders in Mini-ITX & Small Form Factor Solutions

That's VGA, DVI, PCI, PCIe, and 8 USB all on one card! I can run 4gb of memory and a 2.26GHZ processor. 



bobdole369 said:


> I found the group buy thread:
> 
> Still not "cheap" for me - but within reach.
> 
> HippoHiFi Bloat
> 
> The specs are REALLY impressive, but your ears will be the judge. Considering this one for a couple different uses. I'd like to stack this up against the onboard stuff.


I don't see how these options would work Bob. That's really thinking outside of the box but in the end I think I will get stuck with gear that can't network toghether. None of this has been proven to do what I want it to do. PCI 8 analog out is the way to go judging on what other have done. I wouldn't even know where to begin with this stuff


----------



## Get_Zwole

is there any kind of carputer with similar components and processing capabilities that are already built? I always wanted one but im too stupid to put it together.


----------



## cvjoint

Get_Zwole said:


> is there any kind of carputer with similar components and processing capabilities that are already built? I always wanted one but im too stupid to put it together.


Not a carputer. I would go with the Alpine W505 P1 combo with the Bit One if you don't want hassle. However, I am convinced with a little more effort the carputer will surpass the above combo in every way but simplicity.


----------



## ErinH

I'll definately be watching this. I started up a few weeks ago doing research on the carPC route. If I decide to go that route, I'll still need to decide if I want to let the bitone or PC do DSP. This thread should prove very useful. Good timing, man!


----------



## bobdole369

> That's VGA, DVI, PCI, PCIe, and 8 USB all on one card! I can run 4gb of memory and a 2.26GHZ processor.


Just so you know - looks like thats a socket P MB. Laptop parts, nothing wrong with that, but you need to know. Just a tid more expensive than typical LGA775 CPU's. Otherwise it looks like she'll work just fine for ya. 

Another potential gotcha is if you put it in a case - That the case needs to be tall enough to handle the expansion cards. A lot of mini stuff does not handle any expansion cards at all. Looks like you might investigate the case free design, which really is slick there Mega!

As for the HippoHiFi Bloat - discussed in the group buy thread, and also on hippohifi and mp3car is that the Bloat handles ASIO and should work just fine with thuneau's processing, and console. That means you get xover, TA, TC, etc. Just a thought. 

I don't remember if you had a dedicated xover or what, but I thought the idea was to handle processing in-PC.

Man, this thread just reeks sticky now. TONS of info in here.


----------



## coronamike

Since we're sharing pictures. Here are some of mine. Currently the PC is for GPS, music and movie storage, local LAN, weather and Bluetooth (sort of). It connects via the aux in on the Pioneer FH-P800BT. Something simple for now. Expandability and flexability options are unlimited. I'm doing some other things right now so not too much time to play around with it. I am using centrafuse as my frontend.

Centrafuse | CarPC Front-end Software

An 8" widescreen touchscreen is used to control things up front.









It sits in the trunk










The opus PSU can be seen here. It has the white pugs going into it. The case is just tall enough for the video and sound cards to fit


----------



## Megalomaniac

cvjoint said:


> That is gorgeous work! I love the way you integrated the screen in! I may be a bit lazy to start off, I wanted to get it working first so I might just get the Lilliput screen off ebay that's double din already.
> 
> You are giving me some very nice ideas, not to mention I didn't even think the motherboard would fit in the back of the screen. I can A/C cool it even easier from there and frees up trunk room!


Yea I was using the Lilliput 619. I took it apart and molded the screen to the dash using Duramix 4040, then used some skin coats of Rage gold. I then used plastic adhesion promoter, along with a high surface build primer. wet sanded then sprayed texture spray on top. To finish off I used vinyl dye to dye the whole piece black, so when it scratches it still shows up as black underneath.

Also the LCD was hardwired to the computers PSU and I wired it to a relay. So when I remote start, the computer is already booted when I get to the car, but the lcd is still off until I put my key in.

yea I routed the ac into the computer to keep it cool too. Only complaint I have with the computer being behind dash is fan noise. That fan is soo tiny and loud. if you do it behind a dash use bigger fans!


----------



## t3sn4f2

VNSea


----------



## Megalomaniac

t3sn4f2 said:


> VNSea


Isnt that just a VNC client for an iPhone?


----------



## bobdole369

Megalomaniac said:


> Isnt that just a VNC client for an iPhone?


Some serious possibilities there. iPhone is so easy to code for - shouldn't be all that hard to make an IPT/iPhone remote of sorts.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Megalomaniac said:


> Isnt that just a VNC client for an iPhone?


Yup, just throwing it out there as another tool that can be used (depending the the complexity of the Carpc setup).


----------



## Megalomaniac

There is an app for the iPhone that turns the iPhone into a router that broadcasts. So you can tether the iphone to the computer. No extra charges from your SP. So you could probally get google maps with live traffic reports!


----------



## cvjoint

bobdole369 said:


> Just so you know - looks like thats a socket P MB. Laptop parts, nothing wrong with that, but you need to know. Just a tid more expensive than typical LGA775 CPU's. Otherwise it looks like she'll work just fine for ya.
> 
> Another potential gotcha is if you put it in a case - That the case needs to be tall enough to handle the expansion cards. A lot of mini stuff does not handle any expansion cards at all. Looks like you might investigate the case free design, which really is slick there Mega!
> 
> As for the HippoHiFi Bloat - discussed in the group buy thread, and also on hippohifi and mp3car is that the Bloat handles ASIO and should work just fine with thuneau's processing, and console. That means you get xover, TA, TC, etc. Just a thought.
> 
> I don't remember if you had a dedicated xover or what, but I thought the idea was to handle processing in-PC.
> 
> Man, this thread just reeks sticky now. TONS of info in here.


It is definitely on the expensive side. I might get the low end processor option: Intel Celeron M 2.16GHz with one 2gb memory and add the second memory piece when I get GPS, Bluetooth etc working. The important thing is that I checked the built in Video card and it can do dual screen independent source. 

would you need 4 of those HippoHiFI cards on 4 usb's to make a 4 way work out?



coronamike said:


> Since we're sharing pictures. Here are some of mine. Currently the PC is for GPS, music and movie storage, local LAN, weather and Bluetooth (sort of). It connects via the aux in on the Pioneer FH-P800BT. Something simple for now. Expandability and flexability options are unlimited. I'm doing some other things right now so not too much time to play around with it. I am using centrafuse as my frontend.


Wow, are you a doctor? That CPU is really Kosher! Did you build that frame yourself? Keep this coming guys it's great!




Megalomaniac said:


> Yea I was using the Lilliput 619. I took it apart and molded the screen to the dash using Duramix 4040, then used some skin coats of Rage gold. I then used plastic adhesion promoter, along with a high surface build primer. wet sanded then sprayed texture spray on top. To finish off I used vinyl dye to dye the whole piece black, so when it scratches it still shows up as black underneath.
> 
> Also the LCD was hardwired to the computers PSU and I wired it to a relay. So when I remote start, the computer is already booted when I get to the car, but the lcd is still off until I put my key in.
> 
> yea I routed the ac into the computer to keep it cool too. Only complaint I have with the computer being behind dash is fan noise. That fan is soo tiny and loud. if you do it behind a dash use bigger fans!


I may need some help custom fitting the screens in. I've worked a lot with Mdf and fiberglass but have 0 experience with plastic or metal. 

Could I perhaps use no fan at all for cooling if I fit it behind the screens? I figuered I might be able to get a moster sized aluminum fin sink strapped to the processor and toghether with the A/C it may do well. Is the harddrive noisy too? I'm seriously considering solid state. 

BTW I think I figured out a way to make dual touchscreen work:

XENARC 706TSA

Notice it says Multi Monitor touchscreen support. I have no idea how it works but the Xenarc screens seem to be the only ones with this feature. It's not translucent but it does have high brightness, and a sensor for automatic brightness level. I will have to break the bank to buy two though


----------



## bobdole369

> would you need 4 of those HippoHiFI cards on 4 usb's to make a 4 way work out?


Yup you sure would. Each one would have to be a channel. I actually had the hippohifi and another ASIO 8 ch mixed up for a while. 

As for me, if I can get the wife to approve - I think I'm going with a hodgpodge system of sorts - AI have a ton of cpu parts that she's been begging me to get rid of - so I'll get a shuttle up and running from them, and Do myself some research on ASIO and the best option for an 8 ch xovered output using Allocator. 

I played with the demos quite extensively last night, and I managed to make it work just fine on onboard audio - the ALC889A. I only had one pair of headphones and one set of 2.0 speakers on the computer, but I could definitely tell there wasn't any extraneous pops and shivers like I hear folks getting from time to time, and most importantly - the xover worked! Each 3.5mm was like an output from an active crossover. I have hi, mid 2, mid 1, and low at my disposal, and infinitely adjustable. I think Allocator and Virtual Audio Cable, and the ASIO USB (maybe that prodigy hd2 dunno yet) are all I need to buy to make it work. Since the cpu stuff is free.





> Could I perhaps use no fan at all for cooling if I fit it behind the screens?


I would STRONGLY recommend that you use at least a fan on the cpu's heatsink. Fanless designs exist, but they aren't that great, and I know I'm no thermal engineer - so I would go with what is warranted by Intel (and thats the retail heatsink and fan).


----------



## coronamike

cvjoint said:


> Wow, are you a doctor? That CPU is really Kosher! Did you build that frame yourself? Keep this coming guys it's great!


LOL,

Yes I built the frame. It's a little ghetto right now. I'm planning to fab some clear plexi panels around it.


----------



## InterHat

Fanless in a car is nearly impossible unless you undervolt like crazy with a mobile chip like an Atom or something. Run a low RPM fan.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Found these pics of the Bloats internals for anyone interested. The opamps seems to be located on the underside of the board since it's nowhere to be seen in the pics. There's also a **** load of caps on that thing. 

MP3Car.com - View Single Post - 2005 Audi A4 B6 Euro Spec Avant carpc


----------



## Megalomaniac

InterHat said:


> Fanless in a car is nearly impossible unless you undervolt like crazy with a mobile chip like an Atom or something. Run a low RPM fan.


Yea I agree! Its no soo much when the car is on to keep it cool. Its when the car is off and you turn the car on. The heatsink is already hot, so your processor is already hot too, turn it on now you have it running even hotter. Use a low RPM fan with a big heatsink imo. But there is not much room behind the dash unless you use mini or nano itx. As far as hdd noise, I could here it click now and then but nothing major annoying. SSD would be the way to go. It can handle abuse a ton better, but might run slower when processing. You'll have to decide what will work for you.

If I ever do a Carpc again, i would use the voom case and mount it in the trunk, and run the USB and VGA cables to the front of car and use an M3atx PSU, its really small. or if I need beef the m4atx


----------



## Megalomaniac

oh yea heres what I used in the order of use too. actually the promoter should be before primer.


----------



## t3sn4f2

This is a nice DIY site for anyone that wants to go the multiple usb dac route and save some money. Not as high a voltage output though, 1.6 volts RMS versus the 4 volts the Bloat has.

Edit: You can choose to only make it a USB DAC as well, no need to populate it with the other components needed for the other digital formats.

"Modular, Full-featured
The USB and DAC boards can be used independently or mated together for the full feature set. Additionally, each board can be populated to various configurations. This results in five main build options:

* A: Full configuration (USB board configured for S/PDIF format output, the DAC board fully populated with coax and optical inputs, all inputs selectable by front panel selector switch).
* B: Lite configuration (USB board configured for I²S format output, no coax or optical S/PDIF inputs, no input selector switch).
* C: USB-to-S/PDIF converter, no DAC board.
* D: USB-to-I²S converter, no DAC board.
* E: S/PDIF DAC only, no USB board (coax and optical S/PDIF inputs, selectable by front panel switch)."


----------



## MarkZ

t3sn4f2 said:


> This is a nice DIY site for anyone that wants to go the multiple usb dac route and save some money. Not as high a voltage output though, 1.6 volts RMS versus the 4 volts the Bloat has.
> 
> Edit: You can choose to only make it a USB DAC as well, no need to populate it with the other components needed for the other digital formats.
> 
> "Modular, Full-featured
> The USB and DAC boards can be used independently or mated together for the full feature set. Additionally, each board can be populated to various configurations. This results in five main build options:
> 
> * A: Full configuration (USB board configured for S/PDIF format output, the DAC board fully populated with coax and optical inputs, all inputs selectable by front panel selector switch).
> * B: Lite configuration (USB board configured for I²S format output, no coax or optical S/PDIF inputs, no input selector switch).
> * C: USB-to-S/PDIF converter, no DAC board.
> * D: USB-to-I²S converter, no DAC board.
> * E: S/PDIF DAC only, no USB board (coax and optical S/PDIF inputs, selectable by front panel switch)."


Yeah, but how many ess-cues does it have?


----------



## t3sn4f2

MarkZ said:


> Yeah, but how many ess-cues does it have?


Looks like a good deal to me, considering the higher output voltage and low output impedance. 

What are your thoughts about it?


----------



## MarkZ

t3sn4f2 said:


> Looks like a good deal to me, considering the higher output voltage and low output impedance.
> 
> What are your thoughts about it?


Well, i was gonna say let's get one from somebody and spec it out. But it looks like there's already a pretty comprehensive spec sheet on it. Maybe the people who chase after every last THD percentage point may not like it, but it looks good to me. I don't see how the low voltage would be much of a problem though. If you've got to build the thing anyway, it wouldn't be hard to throw an op amp at the output to serve as a voltage amplifier and use the same power supply (won't have ground loop or mismatch issues with line drivers). But, really, I probably wouldn't bother. Especially if you sit it next to your amplifiers! Then you'd be asking your amps to cut the voltage down (which is basically what the gain control does) only to boost it back up again.


----------



## cvjoint

Megalomaniac said:


> Yea I agree! Its no soo much when the car is on to keep it cool. Its when the car is off and you turn the car on. The heatsink is already hot, so your processor is already hot too, turn it on now you have it running even hotter. Use a low RPM fan with a big heatsink imo. But there is not much room behind the dash unless you use mini or nano itx. As far as hdd noise, I could here it click now and then but nothing major annoying. SSD would be the way to go. It can handle abuse a ton better, but might run slower when processing. You'll have to decide what will work for you.
> 
> If I ever do a Carpc again, i would use the voom case and mount it in the trunk, and run the USB and VGA cables to the front of car and use an M3atx PSU, its really small. or if I need beef the m4atx


The solid state should actually work faster unless you are writing data on it. It's better at everything but cost or storage. 

Why would you do a trunk setup next? It's a lot of cables at the very least. I was thinking, don't these fans come with variable speeds? I am leaning towards an in-dash non cased setup. Then all I would have going to the trunk would be a remote cable and 8 RCAs vs. two monitor cables and a half dozen USBs. 





Megalomaniac said:


> oh yea heres what I used in the order of use too. actually the promoter should be before primer.


So you basically treat the panel to adhere, then you primer, then you fiberglass over it? You setup looks good I'll try to replicate 

What kind of pointers do you guys have for power supplies? Is the Opus worth the extra $? Does it do anything better than the M4ATX?


----------



## Megalomaniac

no fiber glassing.

you take the screen apart and adhere the frame to the dash using the Duramix4040, it bonds 2 pieces of plastic together because the glue mix turns into plastic. Then rage, prime, texture,dye.


I have photos, i need to find them i will post it for you, much easier to follow then.


about the psu, I believe the OPUS has its own metal housing m4 does not


----------



## t3sn4f2

how to: make a factory bezel - MP3Car.com


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Hrmmm.

AnandTech: Zotac's Ion: The World's First mini-ITX Ion Board

I'm kind of a geek and my hobby has always been in computers. I've been waiting a while to look at this hardware and I'm pretty excited. So excuse me if I didn't read all precluding messages.

This is what I wanted for an HTPC. Nvidia's Ion platform...

I think it would do quite well for the car PC as well.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

ZOTAC IONITX-A-U Atom N330 1.6GHz Dual-Core Mini ITX Intel Motherboard

I think that Ion platform for Zotac's new board will keep anybody happy when it comes to future expansion. Seems to handle blu-ray quite well too.

I just sat down without reading so I'm not quite sure what it uses to process sound but you get optical out and HDMI straight from the package. Matter of fact, all you need is some memory and a hard drive + case and you're good to go. The question is whether or not the onboard sound option will work in conjunction with the necessary software for processing :/

$190 is a tad high for this hardware but it looks like the perfect car PC package to me


----------



## cvjoint

Megalomaniac said:


> no fiber glassing.
> 
> you take the screen apart and adhere the frame to the dash using the Duramix4040, it bonds 2 pieces of plastic together because the glue mix turns into plastic. Then rage, prime, texture,dye.
> 
> 
> I have photos, i need to find them i will post it for you, much easier to follow then.
> 
> 
> about the psu, I believe the OPUS has its own metal housing m4 does not


Pictures would be great! I see you use a lot of top brand containers. I might not cheap out this time and buy some quality body filler. :blush:

Noob here but how do the power supplies connect/attach to the board?



t3sn4f2 said:


> how to: make a factory bezel - MP3Car.com


That is a great find. Bookmarked, if mine comes out half as good I'd be happy 



I800C0LLECT said:


> ZOTAC IONITX-A-U Atom N330 1.6GHz Dual-Core Mini ITX Intel Motherboard
> 
> I think that Ion platform for Zotac's new board will keep anybody happy when it comes to future expansion. Seems to handle blu-ray quite well too.
> 
> I just sat down without reading so I'm not quite sure what it uses to process sound but you get optical out and HDMI straight from the package. Matter of fact, all you need is some memory and a hard drive + case and you're good to go. The question is whether or not the onboard sound option will work in conjunction with the necessary software for processing :/
> 
> $190 is a tad high for this hardware but it looks like the perfect car PC package to me


No worries, everything so far is just gravy every input is a great addition to this thread. I was clicking the links you put on and I almost had a moment.:blush: No real need for fan, dual screen, 6 usb, and a great price. For my application I'm pretty set on a PCI audio card though otherwise this thing is perfection...if I could just stick the audio PCI card in those PCIe I'd be set. But then...I can't. Sigh...


----------



## coronamike

This touchscreen may help cut down the faberication time

Double DIN Touch Screen Monitors from Mobile Computing Solutions


----------



## Megalomaniac

cvjoint said:


> Pictures would be great! I see you use a lot of top brand containers. I might not cheap out this time and buy some quality body filler. :blush:
> 
> Noob here but how do the power supplies connect/attach to the board?



The Rage Gold is just really easy to sand, Im talking crazy easy! Especially in the green stage, results come out smooth as egg. Make sure you use as little filler as possible. It will crack under heat. That is why we used the Duramix4040 to bond the plastic to plastic, its doing all structural work, but requires a $90 dispenser(dual action "caulk" gun). Instead of using bodyfiller and you want to shell out more money you can use Duramix4058 if you can find it. Its a slightly thinner mix of the 4040 its a bit softer and easier to sand than the 4040. guaranteed to never crack.


What do you mean how are the PSU wired to the board? It just like a regular PSU you would use on your desktop, only difference is its smaller and hooks up via DC power like an amplifier instead AC. also has an outboard jumper wire you hook up to the power-on connection on your mobo. It has a turn on lead for the psu. Minute the psu kicks on it will wait 5 seconds(variable time) to turn the computer on. When you take your key out the psu will remain on and will send a signal to the computer to shutdown properly. You can change all the timing on the psu. 

Don't even think about using a power inverter for a carpc install!


----------



## I800C0LLECT

cvjoint said:


> No worries, everything so far is just gravy every input is a great addition to this thread. I was clicking the links you put on and I almost had a moment.:blush: No real need for fan, dual screen, 6 usb, and a great price. For my application I'm pretty set on a PCI audio card though otherwise this thing is perfection...if I could just stick the audio PCI card in those PCIe I'd be set. But then...I can't. Sigh...


I remember a while back when I was researching the PCI card was the big issue too. I'll start looking around and see what options are available fro PCIe right now...

What PCI sound card are you looking at?


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Newegg.com - Computer Hardware,Input Devices,Sound Cards,Auzentech,

These are some products that seem to be held in high regard. Otherwise, I can't say much for experience but I was going to use the PCI-e low profile sound card they have for HTPC.

They also have a USB sound card


----------



## Megalomaniac

Here is another one 

M-AUDIO - Delta 1010LT - 10-In/10-Out PCI Virtual Studio

I own this sound card, its real nice imo. has 8 anolog ins and out. has spdif too. but doesnt do optical


----------



## cvjoint

coronamike said:


> This touchscreen may help cut down the faberication time
> 
> Double DIN Touch Screen Monitors from Mobile Computing Solutions


It definitely would, on price too. However I think I'm stuck with Xenarc models only since they seem to be the only ones with dual touchscreen support. The model I'm looking at is the 706, $450 on ebay, it has a light sensor and it's high brightness, still no transflective screen.



Megalomaniac said:


> The Rage Gold is just really easy to sand, Im talking crazy easy! Especially in the green stage, results come out smooth as egg. Make sure you use as little filler as possible. It will crack under heat. That is why we used the Duramix4040 to bond the plastic to plastic, its doing all structural work, but requires a $90 dispenser(dual action "caulk" gun). Instead of using bodyfiller and you want to shell out more money you can use Duramix4058 if you can find it. Its a slightly thinner mix of the 4040 its a bit softer and easier to sand than the 4040. guaranteed to never crack.
> 
> 
> What do you mean how are the PSU wired to the board? It just like a regular PSU you would use on your desktop, only difference is its smaller and hooks up via DC power like an amplifier instead AC. also has an outboard jumper wire you hook up to the power-on connection on your mobo. It has a turn on lead for the psu. Minute the psu kicks on it will wait 5 seconds(variable time) to turn the computer on. When you take your key out the psu will remain on and will send a signal to the computer to shutdown properly. You can change all the timing on the psu.
> 
> Don't even think about using a power inverter for a carpc install!


Ok, I guess I'm not going to use any body filler at all! Now how would all this work with the brushed alluminum screen on the Xenarc 706? 

So it's like a laptop power supply, it connects on the back of the motherboard? I haven't changed a power supply before and I haven't used a desktop in a long long time. I installed a PCI card before and memory but that's about it.





I800C0LLECT said:


> I remember a while back when I was researching the PCI card was the big issue too. I'll start looking around and see what options are available fro PCIe right now...
> 
> What PCI sound card are you looking at?


I think the M-Audio card is the first on my list, followed by the Audiotrak. There are two more recommendations for a PCI on this thread, I think the Sonar and the Auzentech. The M-audio has a built in pre-amp for the Mic which is why I like it, but I don't know how the DAC on these compare.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Ya, it's tough to find any real info for the sound cards. Computer geeks don't tend to get into SQ as much as the guys around here. Let me know what you figure out...I heard that the Sonar was going to be released as a PCI-e option later this year.


----------



## cvjoint

So I'm leaning towards:
*trunk mounted Mini-ITX with a PCI compatible case (decided it's too risky to get a fanless setup in the dash with lots of processing and So. Cal. temperatures)
*PCI audio card (**** hits the fan I have more than an option for an audio card)
M-Audio is the 1st choice, I've used their gear before with virtually no problems, I trust they have enough overhead to get rid of small quirks, plus it has mic preamps built in
*Xenarc dual 7 inch screens simply because they have dual touch screen support

Here are the motherboard choices (all can do dual screen, PCI, at least 6 USB,60degree C):
Budget: 
Logic Supply - Leaders in Mini-ITX & Small Form Factor Solutions
Pro:
Cost, only $190
Includes processor so again cost
Cons:
Stuck with given processor/2gb memory support

All it can be choice one:
Logic Supply - Leaders in Mini-ITX & Small Form Factor Solutions
Pro:
Virtually unlimited options for processor and memory: cheapest setup is about $350 with the M processor(much faster than budget setup at its minimum)
Upgrades are unlimited, 4gb memory and Intel Core 2 extreme processors (maybe this one is $1k today but $100 bucks 2 years from now so I can upgrade)
10 USBs!
lots of additional connections
Cons:
may not be able to use more than 6 usbs anyways due to case restrictions (haven't seen one with more than 2 additional usbs to the 4 on the motherboard back)
$225 bucks, $350 with slowest processor, $450 with my processor of choice

All it can be option 2:
Logic Supply - Leaders in Mini-ITX & Small Form Factor Solutions
Pros:
3 types of PCI connections for upgrades
Cons: 
Even more money $269
Bios flash memory 4 vs. 16 for the one above

If the budget option had at least the atom processor 330 then I might have gone for it. It scares me to think a major upgrade would require motherboard swap too. With the other two options possibilities are unlimited, but price is double or more. So is Jetway a decent brand or what? The MSI board is $50 bucks more for virtually no improvement over the Jetway.


----------



## MarkZ

FYI I've been using the same Xenarc touchscreen for about 6 years with no problems. The only potential issue with mine is that its range isn't great (a little too dim in sunlight, a little too bright at night). Not sure if the ones you're looking at will have the same issues. But there are software solutions that can help some.


----------



## bobdole369

> So is Jetway a decent brand or what? The MSI board is $50 bucks more for virtually no improvement over the Jetway.


No, cheap china garbage. The MSI is about the same in terms of reliability, stability, workmanship, and quality. I.E. cheap, and if it works, more power too ya.


----------



## Megalomaniac

Yea Jetway is not good. It was introduced as a "budget" board. Dont gamble your system on it. 

Were you planning on using the carPC as the only source?

I bought the kit to mount my Radio below the dash

Honda Accord Accessories - Audio and Electronic Accessories - Genuine Factory Honda Accessories

It says its for EX only, but thats if you are using the OEM radio to hook up the CD Changer.


----------



## cvjoint

MarkZ said:


> FYI I've been using the same Xenarc touchscreen for about 6 years with no problems. The only potential issue with mine is that its range isn't great (a little too dim in sunlight, a little too bright at night). Not sure if the ones you're looking at will have the same issues. But there are software solutions that can help some.


Nice! I get the feel they have a bit better quality than the Lilliput from the reviews. I think the current models have better brightness and viewing angles, especially if you spend a bit. 



bobdole369 said:


> No, cheap china garbage. The MSI is about the same in terms of reliability, stability, workmanship, and quality. I.E. cheap, and if it works, more power too ya.





Megalomaniac said:


> Yea Jetway is not good. It was introduced as a "budget" board. Dont gamble your system on it.
> 
> Were you planning on using the carPC as the only source?
> 
> I bought the kit to mount my Radio below the dash
> 
> Honda Accord Accessories - Audio and Electronic Accessories - Genuine Factory Honda Accessories
> 
> It says its for EX only, but thats if you are using the OEM radio to hook up the CD Changer.


You guys are killing me, if both Jetway and MSI are crap we eliminate 90% of the Mini-Itx boards out there. I've been talking to some of my friends and to the salesmen at Fry's and all are agreeing that Asus makes the best boards, again not helping me much since Asus does not make Mini-Itx boards. I've done some search and they've only made a very basic board for HP. 2nd recommendation was Gigabyte, and again useless since they don't have a Mini-ITX board out until July, and then it's rated for far smaller temperatures than the rest at only 50 degrees C. All that's left if Via and Zotac, the first can't do dual screen the later can't do PCI. 

Now if we find a case that holds both a PCI and a PCIe I could just get a video card for the PCIe to accommodate a Via board. Via better be the ****! 

Fry's only had one Mini Itx board, what a disappointment, it's all online nowadays. I've seen a shuttle and it's too big. Mini Itx has to be the the way to go. 

Mega why are you still using the factory unit? FM radio?


----------



## Megalomaniac

no I am not using factory radio. I was saying that, that kit was if you were using a factory radio and you put a 5disc cd changer in that cubby. That was its original intention, hence why it says EX model only in description. But you can put your aftermarket radio down there fine thats what I did.


this is the board I was using, its a first generation board, im sure there are faster ones now. But it ran my apps with no bottlenecks what so ever with 512 ran. I ran GPS, music, and frontend with no issues of slowing down.

VIA M10000

VIA makes some great MINI ITX boards, they were one of the first to make an MINI itx board.


to save space you could use some 90degree PCI adaptors. but I sincerley doubt youll find any miniitx boards with multiple PCI slots, that would be difficult to keep small. Maybe there is an adaptor to make a usb port or firewire to convert a PCI card to do so, that would be sweet if there is one!.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

VIA actually has some very capable boards and processors. I wouldn't doubt them at all. However support might be an issue. Some changes have taken place at the company. I believe they were bought out. Their only real legacy now is the ITX standard they created.


----------



## bobdole369

> You guys are killing me, if both Jetway and MSI are crap we eliminate 90% of the Mini-Itx boards out there


Welcome to my world. Both Jetway and MSI are crap. Thus 90% of the Mini-ITX boards are out of the equation.

I literally have a pile of bad MSI junk from when I took over as IT director here. The last admin decided to go cheap and we had a total of 18 MSI MB's from the P4 days. 60% failure rate during its lifespan. 

As for Jetway - I spent 3 days working on a problem with a normal PCI capture board that we use on a Jetway ATX board - It turns out that on that board they don't support full bandwidth on the PCI bus somehow. I don't recall exactly what it was - but bottom line- an industry standard PCI card that works everywhere else does not work on that Jetway board. 



> I've been talking to some of my friends and to the salesmen at Fry's and all are agreeing that Asus makes the best boards


Asus boards are used in a majority of media servers/extenders/set top boxes due to the high quality components. It's not audiophile level sound, but its a ton better than most else. 

(fusion research, harman kardon, a number of minor players building "windows media center" boxes.)

You are right, no mini-itx from them. It costs space to sound good I suppose. 



> Maybe there is an adaptor to make a usb port or firewire to convert a PCI card to do so, that would be sweet if there is one!.


None that I'm aware.



> to save space you could use some 90degree PCI adaptors.


Usually used for rackmount (19.5") cases, 2U particularly. Not sure if that'll cut it here. If he went to a 2U case (3" thick, 19.5" wide, up to 3 feet deep) - he could easily use both PCI and PCIe in a regular ATX size MB. 

I've yet to see a Mini-ITX friendly riser board.


----------



## cvjoint

Megalomaniac said:


> no I am not using factory radio. I was saying that, that kit was if you were using a factory radio and you put a 5disc cd changer in that cubby. That was its original intention, hence why it says EX model only in description. But you can put your aftermarket radio down there fine thats what I did.
> 
> 
> this is the board I was using, its a first generation board, im sure there are faster ones now. But it ran my apps with no bottlenecks what so ever with 512 ran. I ran GPS, music, and frontend with no issues of slowing down.
> 
> VIA M10000
> 
> That pocket is where I plan to put my second monitor with the slim optical drive right above it. The carputer would have to run everything. The only problem with VIA is getting the dual monitor to work. I couldn't find the one board with the Pcie I think it is a mini PCI.
> 
> VIA makes some great MINI ITX boards, they were one of the first to make an MINI itx board.
> 
> 
> to save space you could use some 90degree PCI adaptors. but I sincerley doubt youll find any miniitx boards with multiple PCI slots, that would be difficult to keep small. Maybe there is an adaptor to make a usb port or firewire to convert a PCI card to do so, that would be sweet if there is one!.


That pocket is where I plan to put my second monitor with the slim optical drive right above it. The carputer would have to run everything. The only problem with VIA is getting the dual monitor to work. I couldn't find the one board with the Pcie I think it is a mini PCI.

There are a few boards with PCI, PCIe, and mini PCI, but MSI or Jetway.



I800C0LLECT said:


> VIA actually has some very capable boards and processors. I wouldn't doubt them at all. However support might be an issue. Some changes have taken place at the company. I believe they were bought out. Their only real legacy now is the ITX standard they created.


What about Gigabyte? I found that they make 4 boards that would fit the criteria, they are expensive and special order from what I can tell. 

From the four choices either the GMA 3100 or the GMA 4500 on board graphics would support dual independent display. 

Welcome to AlrightDeals

And look at this Gigabyte and Asus have a lot in common. Is that why Asus doesn't make Mini Itx boards? 

Asustek and Gigabyte joint venture



bobdole369 said:


> Welcome to my world. Both Jetway and MSI are crap. Thus 90% of the Mini-ITX boards are out of the equation.
> 
> I literally have a pile of bad MSI junk from when I took over as IT director here. The last admin decided to go cheap and we had a total of 18 MSI MB's from the P4 days. 60% failure rate during its lifespan.
> 
> As for Jetway - I spent 3 days working on a problem with a normal PCI capture board that we use on a Jetway ATX board - It turns out that on that board they don't support full bandwidth on the PCI bus somehow. I don't recall exactly what it was - but bottom line- an industry standard PCI card that works everywhere else does not work on that Jetway board.
> 
> 
> 
> Asus boards are used in a majority of media servers/extenders/set top boxes due to the high quality components. It's not audiophile level sound, but its a ton better than most else.
> 
> (fusion research, harman kardon, a number of minor players building "windows media center" boxes.)
> 
> You are right, no mini-itx from them. It costs space to sound good I suppose.
> 
> 
> 
> None that I'm aware.
> 
> 
> 
> Usually used for rackmount (19.5") cases, 2U particularly. Not sure if that'll cut it here. If he went to a 2U case (3" thick, 19.5" wide, up to 3 feet deep) - he could easily use both PCI and PCIe in a regular ATX size MB.
> 
> I've yet to see a Mini-ITX friendly riser board.


Got me convinced! If I go with one of the Gigabyte boards from above I would get this case mentioned earlier in the thread by MiniVanMan:
http://store.mo-co-so.com/4th-gen-mini-itx-case-for-carputer-car-pc-with-pci-slot-p-193.html

If I go the Via way can I turn a PCI mini into a Video card and then how would it fit into a case? I found some dual PCI slot cases that are small form.


----------



## Megalomaniac

Did you know there is 2 types of PCI express. one is the small one, which is PCIe 1x and the second type is PCIe 16x, the 16x is the long one you are looking for.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I'm a big fan of Gigabyte boards now. I came in 3rd in an overclocking contest using their board, which was the stipulation for the contest.

FYI, I was using a Q6600 at 65nm. The winners were using QX9650's at 45nm. I use dry ice to get my processor down to -30c. I probably would have won but I kept the northbridge with the stock gigabyte cooler. Finished out at 4.32Ghz on Intel's X38 chipset.

Anyways, after that contest they've grown on me and I've purchased 3 now. Great boards.


----------



## Megalomaniac

I tell you what brand I am fan of. Others might disagree. I enjoy DFI! They use full on japanese caps and parts, my DFI Lanparty has lasted me at least 5 years now still trooping. I have been thru a few PSUs though, but thats my fault for using the ULTRA brand, lmao.

I had 3 Gigabytes fail on me, maybe it was because they were the lower line i dont know, but all of them failed within days, I eventually told the clerk at Frys that I'll take store credit.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Gigabyte isn't the same company it was 5-7 years ago. DFI is a great board company. For years they did nothing but OEM for the Dell's of the world. In the last 5-7 years they've really opened up their business segment that targets gamers. They're some of the best overclocking boards.

Gigabyte uses the solid caps from Japan too. The Semiconductor industry changes too quickly to write off a company for years. Look at Abit and Asus. In the last 10 years one of them went out of business twice and the other has almost been taken over twice. Now only one is left. They both went through the same cycle....good then bad. In these industries you won't always be a winner, you might just have a winning product.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

oh...and chipsets have much more to do with behavior and characteristics of a motherboard than the company who made the motherboard.


----------



## cvjoint

I800C0LLECT said:


> I'm a big fan of Gigabyte boards now. I came in 3rd in an overclocking contest using their board, which was the stipulation for the contest.
> 
> FYI, I was using a Q6600 at 65nm. The winners were using QX9650's at 45nm. I use dry ice to get my processor down to -30c. I probably would have won but I kept the northbridge with the stock gigabyte cooler. Finished out at 4.32Ghz on Intel's X38 chipset.
> 
> Anyways, after that contest they've grown on me and I've purchased 3 now. Great boards.





Megalomaniac said:


> I tell you what brand I am fan of. Others might disagree. I enjoy DFI! They use full on japanese caps and parts, my DFI Lanparty has lasted me at least 5 years now still trooping. I have been thru a few PSUs though, but thats my fault for using the ULTRA brand, lmao.
> 
> I had 3 Gigabytes fail on me, maybe it was because they were the lower line i dont know, but all of them failed within days, I eventually told the clerk at Frys that I'll take store credit.


Ok, well that's 50% failure rate on the Gigabyte and 60% on the MSI, Gigabyte is the winner lol

Can't find DFI mini itx boards. I guess Gigabyte is the best available for the Mini-Itx form. I'm really hoping that if I go with a Core 2 motherboard with a top notch chipset like the GME 965 it will be better build. 'Winning product' is what I'm going for  The MSI and Jetway use: Intel GM45 northbridge
ICH9M southbridge chipset, worse than the GME 965 in the Gigabyte?

These overclocking contests sound like SPL competitions for audio


----------



## I800C0LLECT

oh wow...the 965 chipset is a few years old.

965 < 975 < P35/X38 < P45/X48 < X58 (new processor architecture - memory controller moved to CPU die)

I believe that's how the history works out. Let me go look around and see what I can dig up for decent ITX boards


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Intel board with pci...

Newegg.com - Intel BOXDG41MJ LGA 775 Intel G41 Mini ITX Intel Motherboard - Intel Motherboards


Zotac board with pci-e and 16 lanes

Newegg.com - ZOTAC GF9300-D-E LGA 775 NVIDIA GeForce 9300 HDMI Mini ITX Intel Motherboard - Intel Motherboards



I just found the Gigabyte with the GM965 chipset and I like the features very much. Mini PCI-e, mini PCI and regular PCI for expansion. My only assumption is that mini PCI-e and mini PCI must be the versions used with laptops. Either way after looking at it I think it's a nice board. My original assumption was that it was an older board. What's nice about using the GM965 is that any reliability issues have been ironed out and drivers should be very stable. The downside is that it uses intel onboard graphics. However, that's not too much of an issue since you're only driving a 2D GUI. If you ever decide to add blu-ray to your carPC it'll definitely bog down.

Since the gigabyte is a Socket P you're looking at mobile processors with a lower TDP. 

i.e.

Newegg.com - Socket P, Processors - Mobile, CPUs / Processors, Computer Hardware

I don't think I like the pricing of that gigabyte board though. My complaint about it.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

oh...on a side note. Unless you plan on running some kind of crazy multimedia library program...all you need is 2GB of RAM max. This isn't a desktop PC or even a laptop so multitasking is out of the question and I'm sure XP will be the OS. I can't imagine the front end software needing more RAM, that's just ridiculous and Vista is just plain over kill for this application.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

My hardware picks...


$199
M-Audio
Newegg.com - M-AUDIO Delta 1010LT 24-bit 96KHz PCI Interface 10-In-10-Out PCI Virtual Studio - Sound Cards

$21
2x1GB Memory (one module at either 1 or 2gb is preferred for your application)
Newegg.com - OCZ Vista Upgrade 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory

$88
Intel G41 mini-ITX board
Newegg.com - Intel BOXDG41MJ LGA 775 Intel G41 Mini ITX Intel Motherboard - Intel Motherboards

$70
Intel E5200 Wolfdale @ 2.5Ghz (dual core processor with Core2 architecture)
Newegg.com - Intel Pentium E5200 Wolfdale 2.5GHz 2MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor - Processors - Desktops


I chose a processor with a higher TDP (65watt) but it's also very efficient with heat and power using the 45nm architecture. In addition, I would under-clock and undervolt to help push temperatures down further. There's really no reason this processor should be working hard with WinXP and a decent front end for software. The key is making sure you have a good install with only necessary background programs and services.

Matter of fact...if you lock the multiplier to 6, you should be running at about 1.2Ghz and I bet you could hit about .8 volts at that speed.


----------



## Oliver

I800C0LLECT said:


> I'm a big fan of Gigabyte boards now. I came in 3rd in an overclocking contest using their board, which was the stipulation for the contest.
> 
> FYI, I was using a Q6600 at 65nm. The winners were using QX9650's at 45nm. I use dry ice to get my processor down to -30c. I probably would have won but I kept the northbridge with the stock gigabyte cooler. Finished out at 4.32Ghz on Intel's X38 chipset.
> 
> Anyways, after that contest they've grown on me and I've purchased 3 now. Great boards.



Cool


----------



## cvjoint

I800C0LLECT said:


> My hardware picks...
> 
> 
> $199
> M-Audio
> Newegg.com - M-AUDIO Delta 1010LT 24-bit 96KHz PCI Interface 10-In-10-Out PCI Virtual Studio - Sound Cards
> 
> $21
> 2x1GB Memory (one module at either 1 or 2gb is preferred for your application)
> Newegg.com - OCZ Vista Upgrade 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory
> 
> $88
> Intel G41 mini-ITX board
> Newegg.com - Intel BOXDG41MJ LGA 775 Intel G41 Mini ITX Intel Motherboard - Intel Motherboards
> 
> $70
> Intel E5200 Wolfdale @ 2.5Ghz (dual core processor with Core2 architecture)
> Newegg.com - Intel Pentium E5200 Wolfdale 2.5GHz 2MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor - Processors - Desktops
> 
> 
> I chose a processor with a higher TDP (65watt) but it's also very efficient with heat and power using the 45nm architecture. In addition, I would under-clock and undervolt to help push temperatures down further. There's really no reason this processor should be working hard with WinXP and a decent front end for software. The key is making sure you have a good install with only necessary background programs and services.
> 
> Matter of fact...if you lock the multiplier to 6, you should be running at about 1.2Ghz and I bet you could hit about .8 volts at that speed.


Audio card check!

Memory cards check!

Motherboard I don't see a PCI slot mentioned. I need one for the audio card. Otherwise I already checked the chipset and it does dual independent display. I will never do Blue Ray on it since the screens are too small to support that resolution so the dual capability is all I ask from it. I like the price a lot!

Processor nice price and performance! 65w though? Why does it draw so much juice with 45nm tech? I was looking at a P8400 Core duo only 25w but also $225. 

There will be multitasking, quite a bit of it actually: Hondata engine management, Audio tunning through Win MLS, Asio VST pluginn driven M-audio setup, Dual Screens, Bluetooth, GPS, Audio/Video playback at the minimum. I was thinking dual 2gb cards so really only 3gb usable on XP 32bit.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

cvjoint said:


> Audio card check!
> 
> Memory cards check!
> 
> Motherboard I don't see a PCI slot mentioned. I need one for the audio card. Otherwise I already checked the chipset and it does dual independent display. I will never do Blue Ray on it since the screens are too small to support that resolution so the dual capability is all I ask from it. I like the price a lot!
> 
> Processor nice price and performance! 65w though? Why does it draw so much juice with 45nm tech? I was looking at a P8400 Core duo only 25w but also $225.
> 
> There will be multitasking, quite a bit of it actually: Hondata engine management, Audio tunning through Win MLS, Asio VST pluginn driven M-audio setup, Dual Screens, Bluetooth, GPS, Audio/Video playback at the minimum. I was thinking dual 2gb cards so really only 3gb usable on XP 32bit.



#1...PCI Slot.

Newegg is nice enough to have a direct link to the manufacturer's product page. It's under the special offers on the left. There are 3 tabs and the middle is marked "Manufacturer info". It takes you directly to the product page but I saw from the pictures it has a PCI slot and the product page at intel will confirm that.

#2 The wolfdale CPU

Their 25w TDP Core2's are nothing more than best of the best from their binning. Think of them as hand selected for marketing (a shot at AMD's platform). Either way, if you under-volt and underclock like I suggested you would be amazed at how little your processor draws. I think i read a review a while back when atom came out that they were able to get single core 45nm architecture to within 2 or 3 watts of the atom architecture when attempting to review. In the end, any decent review concluded that AMD and Intel mainstream chips afforded much more processing within about 10watts of the atom system.

To identify the culprit, it was found that the chipsets for the atom were offsetting the platforms power savings. The AMD chipsets back then used less power than anything intel had and therefore the AMD platform held the over all edge but only slightly. This is why Ion was such a huge announcement. Now Atom has the processing capacity for HTPC and, supposedly, a lower power consumption since it moves away from Intel chipsets.

Getting back on track, the E5200 is marketed as Pentium. It still uses the same wolfdale architecture as the Core2.

#3...Multi-tasking
Everybody assumes having more than one window open is multi-tasking. When I think about that, I'm referring to a multitude of apps that are resource hungry. i.e. 20 or so browser windows (18mb a piece in RAM), Vista (about 1GB of ram), a couple instances of photoshop or something similar (RAM useage can be as high as 2 or 4gb), burning a DVD in the background (~5 to 20% of processor depending on process), multimedia applications to manage music(80,000 songs personally -- Vista's new page file system was a god send for my music collection/browsing) or movies to entertain through out the work day, etc.

I can go on and on but the bottom line is that I still don't perceive your requirements as being hardware intensive. But there's another route we can go as well...

Buy 2x2GB of RAM(it's still dirt cheap!!). Use only one stick (better for power characteristics and stability). See how that makes you feel for a while and then move on to 2x2GB. I think we'll find that the second stick really only adds heat to the whole situation. Good experiment tho


----------



## I800C0LLECT

In addition, dual screen. That's actually related to the video dacs on the board/chipset if there are any. Dual screens doesn't actually use any more resources from the memory subsystem. Unless maybe you have a bajillion gigabyte wall-paper scene? :>

Something neat. You can install 3rd party apps that allow you to use a scene of some sort for your desktop wallpaper. Sometimes it's the neat factor that wows guests 

...just don't use a prOn scene, might make it awkward


----------



## InterHat

I have an E5200 in my desktop. I ran it at 3.5 for a while, but I have no problems running it at 2.5 for every day use.


----------



## Megalomaniac

I nabbed my Delta 1010LT off Craigslist for $130  You may want to check your local listings


----------



## I800C0LLECT

InterHat said:


> I have an E5200 in my desktop. I ran it at 3.5 for a while, but I have no problems running it at 2.5 for every day use.



Running at 2.5Ghz shouldn't present itself as an issue but it's still nice to keep the heat outpu low just in case. Sometimes the ambient temp in a trunk can be quite high. Under clocking to 1.2Ghz will help when undervolting. But then again, I've heard of people under-volting to around 1v and still maintaing their default clock speeds.


----------



## cvjoint

I800C0LLECT said:


> #1...PCI Slot.
> 
> Newegg is nice enough to have a direct link to the manufacturer's product page. It's under the special offers on the left. There are 3 tabs and the middle is marked "Manufacturer info". It takes you directly to the product page but I saw from the pictures it has a PCI slot and the product page at intel will confirm that.
> 
> #2 The wolfdale CPU
> 
> Their 25w TDP Core2's are nothing more than best of the best from their binning. Think of them as hand selected for marketing (a shot at AMD's platform). Either way, if you under-volt and underclock like I suggested you would be amazed at how little your processor draws. I think i read a review a while back when atom came out that they were able to get single core 45nm architecture to within 2 or 3 watts of the atom architecture when attempting to review. In the end, any decent review concluded that AMD and Intel mainstream chips afforded much more processing within about 10watts of the atom system.
> 
> To identify the culprit, it was found that the chipsets for the atom were offsetting the platforms power savings. The AMD chipsets back then used less power than anything intel had and therefore the AMD platform held the over all edge but only slightly. This is why Ion was such a huge announcement. Now Atom has the processing capacity for HTPC and, supposedly, a lower power consumption since it moves away from Intel chipsets.
> 
> Getting back on track, the E5200 is marketed as Pentium. It still uses the same wolfdale architecture as the Core2.
> 
> #3...Multi-tasking
> Everybody assumes having more than one window open is multi-tasking. When I think about that, I'm referring to a multitude of apps that are resource hungry. i.e. 20 or so browser windows (18mb a piece in RAM), Vista (about 1GB of ram), a couple instances of photoshop or something similar (RAM useage can be as high as 2 or 4gb), burning a DVD in the background (~5 to 20% of processor depending on process), multimedia applications to manage music(80,000 songs personally -- Vista's new page file system was a god send for my music collection/browsing) or movies to entertain through out the work day, etc.
> 
> I can go on and on but the bottom line is that I still don't perceive your requirements as being hardware intensive. But there's another route we can go as well...
> 
> Buy 2x2GB of RAM(it's still dirt cheap!!). Use only one stick (better for power characteristics and stability). See how that makes you feel for a while and then move on to 2x2GB. I think we'll find that the second stick really only adds heat to the whole situation. Good experiment tho


#1 PCI 

Check! Oh my I think we found a board. I don't know how Intel rates compared to others but this unit does everything I want it to, it has the better chipset, and it's dirt cheap!

#2 Woolfdale CPU
I'm sold on this too. I'm easily persuaded when it comes to picking the layers of marketing and I've read a few reviews saying just that. I was looking at the CPUs that would fit:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...ption=&Ntk=&CFG=&SpeTabStoreType=&srchInDesc=
I really like the E5400, mainly because it's the cheapest offering with the fan and heatsink

#3 Memory
I see your offer and I make another.  I'll buy one 2gb card and buy a second IF it becomes overwhelmed  As for underclocking/undervolting I will run it as it comes in the box unless it runs too hot, which really should be a non issue. I drove 2hrs in 100degree heat and the A/C cooled my amplifiers down to 70s. In the case of the carputer I will reroute one of the A/C pipes right on the case vent opening. Forced induction A/C cooling FTW!

I'm really liking the combo! Oodles of thanks for you man!

Now how do you guys feel about SSD HDD vs. convetional? I have an external Terabyte Hardrive I can mount in the elbow rest for memory. I was thinking of using a small SSD to get faster boot up, ruggedness and more efficiency.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

SSD vs. HD

For the car application you should either find a mobile hard drive (very expensive) or just invest in an SSD. The only problem with SSD is the pricing per GB. Although there's no moving parts the actual memory does break down slowly over time as the transistors are used. Otherwise, only price should be holding you back. You can attempt to use a desktop HD if you'd like but I'm almost certain it would only last a few months at most. A laptop HD might last 6 months to a year but even they aren't designed to withstand that much vibration. Then you come to the mobile HD's. The price per GB is pretty high like the SSD's but at least you know what you're getting.

The biggest downside to SSD's is determining which one will maintain decent performance at a lower cost. I believe MLC based drives are the way to go but almost every SSD performs differently than the next. When I get some time I'll start looking into those too. Last time I checked, they still weren't worth my dime on the desktop side. I've been so busy getting my ears wet in car audio I've neglected my other hobby but I'll try to figure that out tomorrow maybe?


----------



## cvjoint

These will be the conditions:
The car is lowered on race suspension, even though it is smooth with Bilstein gas shocks and H&R progressive shocks it's still going to be a bit bumpy. I don't want to risk it with a conventional drive. My parents live in the desert too, Palm Springs and there it's 120 degrees constant in the summer, temperatures are huge deal, at least at boot up until I get some A/C going. There is also a lot of condensation where I go to school, I get the marine layer in the morning from Newport Beach.

I also want fast boot up times/operation. 

I'm not too big on storage space or storage in general. I have external terabyte hard but I would have to power it ( I do have a dc converter on board). Kinda cumbersome but oh well. 

How long would it take for the SSD to go bad? Shorter than 2 years? I'm fine with upgrading it every 2 years but not more often.


----------



## Oliver

cvjoint said:


> 'Winning product' is what I'm going for


If you use all top notch stuff these will sell like Fry Bread at a Pow Wow


----------



## Billy Mays

cvjoint said:


> The Audisson Bit One and Zapco Dsp 6 seem to be the processors to beat right now. The Zapco has a better EQ. imo, and the Audisson is a 4 way with reported better sound quality.
> 
> I'm trying to retire the Alpine H701 and from what I see the Bit One 'may' be better in terms of better on board chips. The features are nearly the same I think, slightly more EQ. gain 12db vs. 9db, and the Zapco has a more flexible EQ.
> 
> Here's what I'm looking for:
> Single DAC conversion
> 4 way capability
> TA, Xovers, EQ minimum, time correction and phase correct filters definitely nice
> Good quality DAC chip
> 
> The carputer I'm thinking to build:
> Asio VST plug-in method
> Dual CPU, one runs media one uses all cpu power for processing
> I would obviously need optical out on the media CPU and Optical in on the processor CPU, from here 8 analog outputs out, that would keep it at 1 DAC conversion
> Audio card: Audio track Prodigy 7.1 not sure what my pic would be for the media CPU to output digital, hopefully something simpler to save $
> 
> AUDIOTRAK - Prodigy 7.1 HiFi
> 
> CPUs, MP3 car already built Intel dual core Atom Mini-ITX motherboard:
> Mp3Car Custom Car Computer (Preassembled Systems)
> 
> Now I've never built a computer before, most of this stuff is over my head. I'm particularly interested in whether the audio card would even fit on that Mini-Itx board and how, what's PCI etc.
> 
> Is the Prodigy card the one to have? I just picked it because it can do ASIO VST. The pre-outs are at 1V, would I need line drivers to boost voltage?
> 
> Are there any quirks in running carputers? The rest of the setup would be:
> Dual touchscreen Lilliput double din 7 inch screens, one for processor CPU one for Media CPU
> Optical driver up front between the screens
> Volume Knob
> Eventually I want to install GPS, Bluetooth, and my WinMls setup on the media CPU.


i haven't read this whole thread but i thought i'd chime in as a computer person.

first of all check out mp3car.com for carputer stuff.



> Single DAC conversion
> 4 way capability
> TA, Xovers, EQ minimum, time correction and phase correct filters definitely nice
> Good quality DAC chip


most of this depends on the soundcard. if your intent is to play media from the carputer's hard drive rather than an optical drive you'll be interested in firewire based add on cards so you should want a system with firewire(IEEE1394). this is true for a few reasons. the problem with going with a PCI card is that it's very close to hard drives which have high revving electric motors in them, processors, power supplies and other nasties. these things emit RF noise that is almost always picked up in a pci card. you want firewire and not USB because USB is highly inefficient at high bandwidth data transfers. USB 2.0 claims high speeds but these are usually short length burst rates and not actual long term data throughput. firewire is much faster and elleviates this bottleneck so you can play high bit rate files without latency issues. brands to look at are terratec, motu, mackie and presonus. you'll have the best luck looking into recording interfaces.

another way to go would be a USB dac these cost a fortune ($800 or more) for a decent one that isn't tube based (figuring you don't want tubes for high voltage reasons as well as the idea of tubes in a moving/vibrating object is never a good idea)

whether you go PCI or firewire for the audio card noise could still be a potential issue. there's a trick you can do, i forget the technical name for it, but you can make/adapt a metal cage for the carputer or the soundcard and ground it to the car's chassis. this makes a sort of grounded shield that prevents RF from getting to the sensitive bits.

as far as your computer idea itself. running two CPU's one for each task is going to complicate the project immensely as you'll have to basically run two computers. unless you want to run media and music at the same time i'd go with a single dual core setup. thinking intel core 2 duo as they're very power friendly (there's 45w versions). 

anything you can't do with hardware would be done through software. there's many ways to go about this but imo the best playback software is foobar2000. supports flac natively, supports asio out, has 24bit upsampling if needed, has great EQ is very lightweight unless you get into upsampling at high sample rates. doesn't do movies. i would go with Media Player Classic Homecinema for movies as it prevents you from having to DL a bunch of codecs right off the bat. 

i would forget about the volume knob because you can either control volume with the touch screen or you an add on an RF remote control.

Keyspan | RF Remote for Windows Vista - USB | ER-V2 | B&H Photo

make sure you add wifi to the thing so you can connect to a wireless router while sitting in the driveway rather than using a laptop to transport.

it would also be a good idea to get a USB hub and integrate that into the console somewhere so you can plug in ipods, charge things etc.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I think we've nailed the hardware aspect. (read towards the end of page 4) Now he needs to figure out PSU, Case, and car layout.

A desktop hard drive wouldn't suffice his need due to it's inherent failure from being in a car application. The hope is that he will use an SSD. However, finding a decently priced MLC drive with good throughput on reads will be most important. Writes shouldn't be much of an issue. I presume that once he has his installation put together it won't be a necessity to have large amounts of data written on a routine basis. With that said, I think slow installation times would be acceptable.

I've never seen any testing done through an SQ stand point, but the PCI card will be already grounded through the chassis/car via motherboard. Some manufacturer's already include the shroud to help reduce any issues with noise transmission. The only reviews I've ever read were not able to measure noise level differences with or without the shroud. But to support the idea it'd probably be easier just to have a ground lead attached to the case and shroud, assuming the case grounds properly through his power source. But I can't say I know much about car PC cases and PSU's. But laptops and desktops consistently ground the case through the PSU.

I like the other ideas presented too. It's crazy to see how personal the car becomes with a PC installed


----------



## Megalomaniac

You could install TinyXP, or make your own TinyXP to gut out the unnecessities to cutdown on hdd space and boot times. Combine that with an SSD and sleep mode you should be gold!


----------



## cvjoint

Billy Mays said:


> i haven't read this whole thread but i thought i'd chime in as a computer person.
> 
> first of all check out mp3car.com for carputer stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> most of this depends on the soundcard. if your intent is to play media from the carputer's hard drive rather than an optical drive you'll be interested in firewire based add on cards so you should want a system with firewire(IEEE1394). this is true for a few reasons. the problem with going with a PCI card is that it's very close to hard drives which have high revving electric motors in them, processors, power supplies and other nasties. these things emit RF noise that is almost always picked up in a pci card. you want firewire and not USB because USB is highly inefficient at high bandwidth data transfers. USB 2.0 claims high speeds but these are usually short length burst rates and not actual long term data throughput. firewire is much faster and elleviates this bottleneck so you can play high bit rate files without latency issues. brands to look at are terratec, motu, mackie and presonus. you'll have the best luck looking into recording interfaces.
> 
> another way to go would be a USB dac these cost a fortune ($800 or more) for a decent one that isn't tube based (figuring you don't want tubes for high voltage reasons as well as the idea of tubes in a moving/vibrating object is never a good idea)
> 
> whether you go PCI or firewire for the audio card noise could still be a potential issue. there's a trick you can do, i forget the technical name for it, but you can make/adapt a metal cage for the carputer or the soundcard and ground it to the car's chassis. this makes a sort of grounded shield that prevents RF from getting to the sensitive bits.
> 
> as far as your computer idea itself. running two CPU's one for each task is going to complicate the project immensely as you'll have to basically run two computers. unless you want to run media and music at the same time i'd go with a single dual core setup. thinking intel core 2 duo as they're very power friendly (there's 45w versions).
> 
> anything you can't do with hardware would be done through software. there's many ways to go about this but imo the best playback software is foobar2000. supports flac natively, supports asio out, has 24bit upsampling if needed, has great EQ is very lightweight unless you get into upsampling at high sample rates. doesn't do movies. i would go with Media Player Classic Homecinema for movies as it prevents you from having to DL a bunch of codecs right off the bat.
> 
> i would forget about the volume knob because you can either control volume with the touch screen or you an add on an RF remote control.
> 
> Keyspan | RF Remote for Windows Vista - USB | ER-V2 | B&H Photo
> 
> make sure you add wifi to the thing so you can connect to a wireless router while sitting in the driveway rather than using a laptop to transport.
> 
> it would also be a good idea to get a USB hub and integrate that into the console somewhere so you can plug in ipods, charge things etc.


I haven't heard any issues running the PCI cards that were mentioned in this thread: M-audio 1010lt, Audiotrak Audigy, Sonar, Auzenteck as far as interferences go. On top of that SSD hard is what I'm leaning towards for many reasons. Most of the other recc. so far have been USB cards which I'm not so crazy about due to cost, often lower quality, resource hog properties. Now I haven't heard about the firewire ones at all but do any of the MIni-itx boards even have this connection?

I've also dropped the dual motherboard idea, I was the only one pushing it :blush: and dual core processors are the only ones we've been looking at.

I'll just list what it looks like so far:

m-board
Intel Desktop Board DG41MJ - Overview
88 bucks on negg

processor
Intel® Pentium® Processor for Desktop E5400 - SLB9V
90 bucks on negg

memory
Newegg.com - OCZ Vista Upgrade 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory
42 bucks

hdd
Newegg.com - Crucial CT32GBFAB0 2.5" 32GB SATA Internal Solid state disk (SSD) - Solid State Disks
92 bucks

case
4th Gen Mini ITX Case for Carputer Car PC with PCI Slot [MCS-BIC-PCI] - $97.00 : Mobile Computing Solutions: For Your Car PC Carputer and Kiosk Computer
75 bucks on ebay

powersupply
OPUS 320W Intelligent DC-DC PSU
230 bucks

audio card
M-AUDIO Delta 1010LT Sound Card - US41077 - Buy.com
160 bucks

Screens
Xenarc 7 High Bright LCD Touch Screen Monitor w/ VGA [702TSV] - $470.40 : Microsupply.com - Discount Electronics, Computer Parts, Laptop Accessories and Computers
470 bucks

Slim DVD burner
Newegg.com - Sony Optiarc Black 8X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 6X DVD+R DL 8X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 5X DVD-RAM 8X DVD-ROM 24X CD-R 24X CD-RW 24X CD-ROM 2MB Cache SATA Slim 8X DVD±R Burner - CD / DVD Burners
50 bucks

Slim enclosure USB coversion
Ultra Slim External Enclosure USB 2.0/FireWire
14 bucks

Volume Knob
Griffin Powermate Volume Knob 1100-PWRMTS
45 bones

Total:
$1850
Without screens it's less than 900 bucks!

I would still need Blue tooth, a powered hub and GPS hardware. $2000 job.





I800C0LLECT said:


> I think we've nailed the hardware aspect. (read towards the end of page 4) Now he needs to figure out PSU, Case, and car layout.
> 
> A desktop hard drive wouldn't suffice his need due to it's inherent failure from being in a car application. The hope is that he will use an SSD. However, finding a decently priced MLC drive with good throughput on reads will be most important. Writes shouldn't be much of an issue. I presume that once he has his installation put together it won't be a necessity to have large amounts of data written on a routine basis. With that said, I think slow installation times would be acceptable.
> 
> I've never seen any testing done through an SQ stand point, but the PCI card will be already grounded through the chassis/car via motherboard. Some manufacturer's already include the shroud to help reduce any issues with noise transmission. The only reviews I've ever read were not able to measure noise level differences with or without the shroud. But to support the idea it'd probably be easier just to have a ground lead attached to the case and shroud, assuming the case grounds properly through his power source. But I can't say I know much about car PC cases and PSU's. But laptops and desktops consistently ground the case through the PSU.
> 
> I like the other ideas presented too. It's crazy to see how personal the car becomes with a PC installed


Huston we have a problem with the M-board again, it doesn't support ACPI 2.0, only ACPI 1.0b. Look at the last page right over Expansion Capabilities:
http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/prodbrief/321399.pdf

It's a problem because I might not be able to get the right shut down modes with the Opus power supply, according to Mp3 Car this needs ACPI 2.0 support. 

OPUS 320W Intelligent DC-DC PSU FAQ Thread - MP3Car.com

We can look at other Power supplies but this one seemed like the beefiest on the market. I will have a 8 usb hub to support off of it: 2 touchscreens, Hondata, volume knob, optical drive, bluetooth, GPS, External Hdd maybe and one open jack up front for various expandability options.


----------



## cvjoint

Megalomaniac said:


> You could install TinyXP, or make your own TinyXP to gut out the unnecessities to cutdown on hdd space and boot times. Combine that with an SSD and sleep mode you should be gold!


Yes sir, I like how that sounds! I think we need to figure out the power supply next, it seems to be much more important the the other standard components like HDD, optical drives etc. I was so bummed last night when I found out the Opus is not compatible with the Intel board.


----------



## felix509

I800C0LLECT said:


> A desktop hard drive wouldn't suffice his need due to it's inherent failure from being in a car application.



How many hard drives have you had fail in your car?? 

I personally have (2) regular desktop hard drives in my car, neither have failed in a couple years.. 


Many people use 3.5 drives of garden variety with great success.. 


I skipped the case and mounted stuff on a flat surface with spacers to keep it isolated/cooled. 

You might consider one of the PCI ribbon extensions, then your PCI 1010 card will have lots of flexibility to be mounted.. I have used one for 12 months with no trouble..

PCI ribbon example


----------



## t3sn4f2

Don't M-Audio products crap out when hibernating or suspending?


----------



## I800C0LLECT

That's odd. Two of mine failed within about 3 months time frame. Perhaps it's more to do with location than actual installation?


----------



## cvjoint

t3sn4f2 said:


> Don't M-Audio products crap out when hibernating or suspending?


Ahh you are right. I remember Durwood warned me about this too. So I will have to go full shut down everytime. I think all Asio cards do this btw. Is the Opus still going to be able to order a shut down of the computer if it's not the same ACPI version as the Bios?


----------



## bobdole369

> a powered hub


One is linked earlier in the thread.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

As far as I know...the ACPI issue relates to hibernating n' such. Turn off and turn on shouldn't be an issue. I'll look into it but I've never had problems with desktops.


----------



## t3sn4f2

cvjoint said:


> Ahh you are right. I remember Durwood warned me about this too. So I will have to go full shut down everytime. *I think all Asio cards do this btw.* Is the Opus still going to be able to order a shut down of the computer if it's not the same ACPI version as the Bios?


Good to know, thanks.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Delta 1010LT RMAA


----------



## t3sn4f2

I Just found this, don't know if it's been mentioned already but might be useful for anyone with an external sound card system that has its own power switch.


"Beta Admin 
Administrator Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 110 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi tkay,
M-Audio does not support sleep mode with any of its devices. The ability to re-establish a connection with a 3rd party device driver after waking from sleep or hibernation mode is system dependent. Because of this, M-Audio recommends setting your computer to never go to sleep. Instead, it is recommended that you turn off your monitor, or completely power off the computer. If your M-Audio device is not working after waking from sleep mode, restart your computer to re-establish a connection with the device.

If you would like to use sleep mode, please see the following recommendations:

For FireWire devices equipped with an power button or switch, power off your M-Audio device before putting the computer in sleep mode, and wake the computer from sleep mode before powering your device back on. Caution: Do Not Hot-Plug FireWire Devices

For USB devices equipped with an power button or switch, power off your M-Audio device before putting the computer in sleep mode, and wake the computer from sleep mode before powering your device back on.

For USB devices without a power switch, disconnect the USB cable before putting the computer in sleep mode, and wake the computer from sleep mode before reconnecting. You can disconnect the USB cable from either the M-Audio device or the computer. When disconnecting from the computer, make sure you reconnect to the same USB port.

If your M-Audio device is not working after following the procedures above, restart your computer to re-establish a connection with the device.

All the best,
Beta Admin"


----------



## I800C0LLECT

t3sn4f2 said:


> Delta 1010LT RMAA




Great link!!  That's pretty exciting to see


----------



## cvjoint

bobdole369 said:


> One is linked earlier in the thread.


Newegg.com - BYTECC BT- 217C 7 Ports USB 2.0 Aluminum Silm HUB - Hubs
:2thumbsup:
I'm guessing I can just modify the plug by cutting the transformer and plugging it into regulated power from the power supply.



I800C0LLECT said:


> As far as I know...the ACPI issue relates to hibernating n' such. Turn off and turn on shouldn't be an issue. I'll look into it but I've never had problems with desktops.


I sure pray so. I like that Opus supply, it seems like nobody found the limits on it.



t3sn4f2 said:


> Delta 1010LT RMAA


Good to know, thanks.


----------



## RoRo

Been looking over this thread, interesting stuff.

I found a guy locally who is selling these PC's but might be willing to part with just the M-audio cards only. He has about 17 systems.... for the local people heres the link.
The LCD's are touch screen via USB from what he said... the rest of the PC isn't worth all that much.

I asked him if he would sell the cards for 80 or 100, so he emailed back asking how many I'd be interested for 100 bucks each.
Let me know if anyone is interested at all, PM me and put M-audio Delta.

edit: found out the cards are out of warranty, so might not be worth the trouble...

peace,

Ro


----------



## cvjoint

I'm going to wait a bit on purchasing all this gear until I have all the details ironed out. I'm currently waiting on OPUS to return my email. I asked them what high capacity powersupplies they have in stock since the 320 and the 360w units are out of stock everywhere. I also sent them a link with the Intel motherboard to get more precise answers for compatibility issues.

So far it seems that power on/off should work just fine no matter what protocol the bios uses for it. 250w also seems about enough juice for what I want to do. 

I'm a bit confused on how to get bluetooth functionality going. I know the usb adapters are readily available and cheap but will they cut off all other music to place the bluetooth call though?


----------



## cvjoint

t3sn4f2 said:


> Delta 1010LT RMAA


Do you guys recognize any other 8 way ASIO cards in this group? I looked at a few and they seem to be stereo only, the EMU looked really good but lacks the features.

Also note the PCI M-audio cards are generally better than the USB counterparts.


----------



## t3sn4f2

cvjoint said:


> Do you guys recognize any other 8 way ASIO cards in this group? I looked at a few and they seem to be stereo only, the EMU looked really good but lacks the features.
> 
> Also note the PCI M-audio cards are generally better than the USB counterparts.


Those are loopback test by the way, so they combine input and output stages performance into one. The lower performing one might actually have better output numbers and its performance could be being corrupted by its input stage. It shouldn't really matter though since those numbers are sooo good and within dbs of each other and almost at the file formats theoretical limits.


----------



## cvjoint

t3sn4f2 said:


> Those are loopback test by the way, so they combine input and output stages performance into one. The lower performing one might actually have better output numbers and its performance could be being corrupted by its input stage. It shouldn't really matter though since those numbers are sooo good and within dbs of each other and almost at the file formats theoretical limits.


yeah, FR and distortion are perfect I was simply looking at noise levels and dynamic output. 

I've also searched a bit on the USB vs. PCI the Pci does seem to still have the edge speed wise. The USB has the advantage in noise immunity but I may design my own noise free case.


----------



## Sponge

Have not read this yet but here is my experience on a couple of the items discussed:

I use a USB DAC (HippoHifi Bloat) but do my processing on a Zapco DC amp... I know, this defeats some of the point of the CarPC, but don't rule them out, there are good USB DACs out there for reasonable prices.

I run a Samsung SSD for OS and Music (with a stripped XP install) but ran a 3.5" desktop drive for years, even got into an accident at 40mph and pulled the CarPC and put it into the new car and continued to use it for another year... drive never failed. SSDs will last a very long time in a CarPC environment because there are very few write operations to the drive.

I hibernate, its faster than cold boot in my situation. If you choose to hibernate, limit your ram to the lowest possible to shrink the hiberfile (an image of the ram). I run 1GB and limit it in XP to 250MB in boot.ini. SSDs do not really help with hibernation resume speed.


----------



## cvjoint

Sponge said:


> I run a Samsung SSD for OS and Music (with a stripped XP install) but ran a 3.5" desktop drive for years, even got into an accident at 40mph and pulled the CarPC and put it into the new car and continued to use it for another year... drive never failed. SSDs will last a very long time in a CarPC environment because there are very few write operations to the drive.


Ooo how did the SSD work for you? I'm glad to know it will survive a bit in a carputer  We have come to the conclusion that the Asio card I want to use for audio, the M-audio does not like hibernation, and well probably the power supply can't do it anyway. It seems like full shut down is the only way to go. Did you notice the SSD being considerably better in this respect? :ears:


----------



## Sponge

Yes, for cold boot, SSD is the way to go. I run four of them in a striped RAID array on my desktop... its cool technology. Shock resistant and better operating temperatures too.






And you dont _need_ a monster PSU either, nice to have, but don't let it hold up your build. I run an E8200 (dual core 2.66Ghz) in my car and under load I think it pulled no more than 70w from my 12v power supply using a DMM. I run an old Opus 150w.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

If you are looking at the option for suspend and Resume operatino then we need to possibly look at an ACPI 2.0 capable motherboard.

Again, if you don't care then turn on/off will be fine when matching the 1.0b mobo with the PSU but if you want to suspend you might be pissed. Make sure you find out from the manufacturer of the PSU if it handles 1.0b alright. It should be backwards compatible but I have seen issues with PSU's and boards in the past that weren't on the same page. Problems are usually instigated through poor driver development though. That's why I like the intel board to begin with. Drivers are usually quit solid. After all, they're the provider for majority of the chipsets on the mobo.


----------



## cvjoint

Sponge said:


> Yes, for cold boot, SSD is the way to go. I run four of them in a striped RAID array on my desktop... its cool technology. Shock resistant and better operating temperatures too.
> 
> And you dont _need_ a monster PSU either, nice to have, but don't let it hold up your build. I run an E8200 (dual core 2.66Ghz) in my car and under load I think it pulled no more than 70w from my 12v power supply using a DMM. I run an old Opus 150w.


That is bad---ass. It's more than 10 seconds faster, that is a considerable difference. I imagine if you have some programs in the startup it will be even faster. 



I800C0LLECT said:


> If you are looking at the option for suspend and Resume operatino then we need to possibly look at an ACPI 2.0 capable motherboard.
> 
> Again, if you don't care then turn on/off will be fine when matching the 1.0b mobo with the PSU but if you want to suspend you might be pissed. Make sure you find out from the manufacturer of the PSU if it handles 1.0b alright. It should be backwards compatible but I have seen issues with PSU's and boards in the past that weren't on the same page. Problems are usually instigated through poor driver development though. That's why I like the intel board to begin with. Drivers are usually quit solid. After all, they're the provider for majority of the chipsets on the mobo.


Opus seems to not want to communicate which is a bit troubling as a potential buyer. I think on/off is what I want to do so any power supply should work. I like the Intel board too, I'm sticking with it. I can't even tell what version of ACPI the other are anyway. 

So I was recommended to buy this SSD:
Newegg.com - OCZ Vertex Series OCZSSD2-1VTX30G 2.5" 30GB SATA II MLC Internal Solid state disk (SSD) - Solid State Disks

Thumbs up? Thumbs down?

I'm also going for the E5200 CPU, I need a heatsink/fan combo for it.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

The only question I have...do you plan on using USB for your hard drive? If you do then almost any drive will be ok since USB will be the limiting factor in transfer speeds.

I'd personally use SATA on the board and save that USB for something else.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

off the top of my head...this comes to mind for a heat sink...

SilverStone Technology Co., Ltd - Designing Inspiration


----------



## KARPE

So how far are we from building this monster?


----------



## cvjoint

I'm going to try to get the whole list of parts solidified by the end of the weekend and hopefully order everything Monday. I have the following left to clear: what opus power supply would fit in the case I want, Bluetooth connection, optical drive choice, SSD hard choice.

All parts should be in early June. Install thread started with pictures.

Indoor assembly using a 110v power supply mid June. 

Then I take 2 week Eurotrip 

Start car installation beginning July.

End install without GPS and fancy dsp by the end of July. Should be able to beat the above mentioned car processors by the end of July 

Ready to audition August - to anybody in So. Cal. that goes to the meets.


----------



## cvjoint

I800C0LLECT said:


> The only question I have...do you plan on using USB for your hard drive? If you do then almost any drive will be ok since USB will be the limiting factor in transfer speeds.
> 
> I'd personally use SATA on the board and save that USB for something else.


Sata is what everyone so far directed me towards. The SSD that I mentioned above is SATA II. I searched today to make sure SATAII works with SATA board. Apparently it has nothing to do with the hardware connector so it should fit. 



I800C0LLECT said:


> off the top of my head...this comes to mind for a heat sink...
> 
> SilverStone Technology Co., Ltd - Designing Inspiration


That looks delicious. Do you think it will fit well? My friend thinks we should get some from FRY's to make sure. I honestly don't think FrY's has enough selection from what I've seen last week.


----------



## t3sn4f2

hhhhmmmmmm......

OCZ Technology | Products | Flash Media | OCZ Summit Series SATA II 2.5" SSD

"Flash Media / 2.5" Solid State Drives / SATA II / *128MB Cache* / MLC / Performance Series 

120GB Max Performance** 
Read: Up to 220 MB/s 
Write: Up to 200MB/s 
*Sustained Write: Up to 200MB/s*"

No prices yet.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I would definitely measure out the specs on the board but as long as they maintained the standards Intel defines for specific area surrounding the socket then the heatsink should be just fine. If the board or heatsink are designed outside Intel spec then there will be problems but I haven't seen that happen in a few years.


----------



## t3sn4f2

I800C0LLECT said:


> #1...PCI Slot.
> 
> Newegg is nice enough to have a direct link to the manufacturer's product page. It's under the special offers on the left. There are 3 tabs and the middle is marked "Manufacturer info". It takes you directly to the product page but I saw from the pictures it has a PCI slot and the product page at intel will confirm that.
> 
> #2 The wolfdale CPU
> 
> Their 25w TDP Core2's are nothing more than best of the best from their binning. Think of them as hand selected for marketing (a shot at AMD's platform). Either way, if you under-volt and underclock like I suggested you would be amazed at how little your processor draws. I think i read a review a while back when atom came out that they were able to get single core 45nm architecture to within 2 or 3 watts of the atom architecture when attempting to review. In the end, any decent review concluded that AMD and Intel mainstream chips afforded much more processing within about 10watts of the atom system.
> 
> To identify the culprit, it was found that the chipsets for the atom were offsetting the platforms power savings. The AMD chipsets back then used less power than anything intel had and therefore the AMD platform held the over all edge but only slightly. This is why Ion was such a huge announcement. Now Atom has the processing capacity for HTPC and, supposedly, a lower power consumption since it moves away from Intel chipsets.
> 
> Getting back on track, the E5200 is marketed as Pentium. It still uses the same wolfdale architecture as the Core2.
> 
> #3...Multi-tasking
> Everybody assumes having more than one window open is multi-tasking. When I think about that, I'm referring to a multitude of apps that are resource hungry. i.e. 20 or so browser windows (18mb a piece in RAM), Vista (about 1GB of ram), a couple instances of photoshop or something similar (RAM useage can be as high as 2 or 4gb), burning a DVD in the background (~5 to 20% of processor depending on process), multimedia applications to manage music(80,000 songs personally -- Vista's new page file system was a god send for my music collection/browsing) or movies to entertain through out the work day, etc.
> 
> I can go on and on but the bottom line is that I still don't perceive your requirements as being hardware intensive. But there's another route we can go as well...
> 
> Buy 2x2GB of RAM(it's still dirt cheap!!). Use only one stick (better for power characteristics and stability). See how that makes you feel for a while and then move on to 2x2GB. I think we'll find that the second stick really only adds heat to the whole situation. Good experiment tho


How come the mobile core 2 duo series don't show up in the compatibility list for the motherboard you rec.. Are they compatible, just not "Fully compatible"? All they list are the E series of that family. 

http://processormatch.intel.com/CompDB/SearchResult.aspx?BoardName=DG41MJ


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Intel Desktop Board DG41MJ - Overview


Here's the motherboard on Intel's site. They list any LGA 775 processor as compatible. It seems that anything above a 65w TDP is frowned on


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Intel® Processors and Boards Compatibility Tool - Search Results Page

After reviewing their list of acceptable processors I think the problem is that they haven't updated their web page for this product.

The E5300 on that page is also based on the 45nm wolfdale CPU. You may want to email them just to verify. Sometimes the different bins produce errata issues that can be reconciled through a BIOS revision. If the bios has not been revised to deal with those errata issues then the processor will run, just not as stable as intel hopes.

My assumption is that the E5300 and E5200 are grown in the same process/technique. I wouldn't worry about it personally but piece of mind is everything when you're going head first into unfamiliar territory. Email them!


----------



## t3sn4f2

I800C0LLECT said:


> Intel® Processors and Boards Compatibility Tool - Search Results Page
> 
> After reviewing their list of acceptable processors I think the problem is that they haven't updated their web page for this product.
> 
> The E5300 on that page is also based on the 45nm wolfdale CPU. You may want to email them just to verify. Sometimes the different bins produce errata issues that can be reconciled through a BIOS revision. If the bios has not been revised to deal with those errata issues then the processor will run, just not as stable as intel hopes.
> 
> My assumption is that the E5300 and E5200 are grown in the same process/technique. I wouldn't worry about it personally but piece of mind is everything when you're going head first into unfamiliar territory. Email them!


Ah.....I see. Thanks


----------



## I800C0LLECT

No problem!!! I wanna see how this guy turns out. I'm pretty excited about your install


----------



## I800C0LLECT

oh dang...I still never answered your question...

"How come MOBILE core2 duos aren't compatible..."

Intel's mobile CPU's use Socket P. Their desktop processors use LGA 775 and 1336


----------



## I800C0LLECT

t3sn4f2 said:


> hhhhmmmmmm......
> 
> OCZ Technology | Products | Flash Media | OCZ Summit Series SATA II 2.5" SSD
> 
> "Flash Media / 2.5" Solid State Drives / SATA II / *128MB Cache* / MLC / Performance Series
> 
> 120GB Max Performance**
> Read: Up to 220 MB/s
> Write: Up to 200MB/s
> *Sustained Write: Up to 200MB/s*"
> 
> No prices yet.


I'm more impressed with the READ speeds. Once you've installed everything you won't do any writing. The writes is what deteriorates your SSD. I think you're golden if you can grab that SSD. Maybe wait to make that your last purchase since their price market changes so quickly.

FYI...2TB hard drives are on the market
Newegg.com - Computer Hardware,Hard Drives,Internal Hard Drives,1TB and higher,


----------



## cvjoint

yermolovd said:


> Forgot to add I'm using logitech space navigator for knob.


Anybody have any input on this one and the standard Griffin knob I posted? I read some reviews and it looks like the standard one might be better fit for this job.



t3sn4f2 said:


> hhhhmmmmmm......
> 
> OCZ Technology | Products | Flash Media | OCZ Summit Series SATA II 2.5" SSD
> 
> "Flash Media / 2.5" Solid State Drives / SATA II / *128MB Cache* / MLC / Performance Series
> 
> 120GB Max Performance**
> Read: Up to 220 MB/s
> Write: Up to 200MB/s
> *Sustained Write: Up to 200MB/s*"
> 
> No prices yet.


That looks gorgeous but yeah, not available. Plus I don't want to make this carputer more expensive than the processor I want to beat. 

In say 2 years I can purchase both the top of the line quad core that fits on the board and this harddrive in 250gb trim for under $200. So I'll wait. Our picks will do just fine. I have a terabite hdd I might convert the power supply for. 



I800C0LLECT said:


> I would definitely measure out the specs on the board but as long as they maintained the standards Intel defines for specific area surrounding the socket then the heatsink should be just fine. If the board or heatsink are designed outside Intel spec then there will be problems but I haven't seen that happen in a few years.


Thanks boss! I'll buy it, I trust it to fit. I want my first option to be available. If it doesn't fit than I can make the trip to Fry's.


----------



## t3sn4f2

I800C0LLECT said:


> oh dang...I still never answered your question...
> 
> "How come MOBILE core2 duos aren't compatible..."
> 
> Intel's mobile CPU's use Socket P. Their desktop processors use LGA 775 and 1336


Lol, I thought you had when you said the web page had not been updated. :blush:

I guess it's a good thing that only those are compatible, too many options drive me crazy.


----------



## t3sn4f2

cvjoint said:


> *In say 2 years I can purchase both the top of the line quad core that fits on the board and this harddrive in 250gb trim for under $200.* So I'll wait. Our picks will do just fine. I have a terabite hdd I might convert the power supply for.


True and you might not even need it if what you get is fast enough with your setup.


----------



## t3sn4f2

This might be an important read, depending on what you want from an SSD......

bit-tech.net | Review - OCZ Vertex 120GB SSD


----------



## I800C0LLECT

What's *MOST IMPORTANT* about this review are the *AVERAGE READ* speeds. Although burst rates are still better on traditional HD's the sustained average read is as good or better with SSD's. In the last year or so, MLC (type of memory/storage) based drives are particularly better when you have intensive WRITING demands. People who are very demanding, i.e. pc for a living, would fall into this realm.

In your application, read speeds are most important.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

In the end, after you've setup your OS and supporting software there will not be any reason for you to write more information. Writing the occasional MP3 file shouldn't dictate your move away from SSD. Any of those benchmarks based on "writing" demands should not be important at all. READ transfers rates and random reads are most important!! Good call T3


----------



## MarkZ

I thought there were a fair amount of writes during boot though?


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Nope. *Writes* include new information that was never present on the hard drive. Boot times depend upon how long it takes to move and arrange information from point A to point B in such a fashion that the CPU can not only process the information but also decide where it should be placed for future use.

bit-tech.net | Review - OCZ Vertex 120GB SSD

After reviewing the link above you'll notice that the SSD's are almost all identical. The mechanical HD's are not. Depending on how their cache was designed to be used (whether designed for small or large chunks of data) determines their ability to respond. Spindle rates are also hugely important for random reads from the platters on the HD. Boot times are based on the HD's ability to handle large/small clusters in addition to ability to read from random points on the drive.

That is a big reason why the Raptor (10,000 rpm) is so much more successful when handling the acquisition of small files placed through out the platter on an HD. If you transfer one file that is extremely large (say 10gb) you'll notice that the raptor's performance lead isn't near as strong when compared to hard drives with a spindle that functions at 7200rpm's. It was designed to function well with smaller data files and excel at random access times.

You may have confused the generic idea of "writes" to information that is transferred from the HD to the RAM. In this instance, SSD's still come out on top in a big way. Our culture is plagued with poor choice of words and degenerate semantics have really confused our ability to process information. It's certainly understandable, with everybody and their brother assuming they are the epitome of "enthusiast" because they can turn their PC on/off.

Excellent question


----------



## MarkZ

I didn't really mean writes to be HDD to RAM. I thought there were a considerable number of disk writes during boot, creating a disk cache and whatever else. That's why they tell you to "shut down" instead of just cutting power.


----------



## t3sn4f2

I800C0LLECT said:


> In the end, after you've setup your OS and supporting software there will not be any reason for you to write more information. Writing the occasional MP3 file shouldn't dictate your move away from SSD. Any of those benchmarks based on "writing" demands should not be important at all. READ transfers rates and random reads are most important!! Good call T3


How about "random combined read/write performance" when it comes to a front end with an optional advance voice recognition package to control it _in Vista_ (ie Streetdeck Sayittoplayit or simply Media Center Communicator). 

The voice recognition company (ie One Voice) recommended at least a P4 2.8GHz for Vista MCC. I'm not interested sound processing, or games. Just want to push a button speak and get the song right away while the navigation is showing me where I am going on Google Earth. All instant and lag free.

Would there be a need to spend more on the Intel variety SSD that excels in the random R/W category or just go with a Vestex that is pretty standard in that regard but excels in more steady demands? 

Would the Intel be an overkill if I am using say a ZOTAC GeForce 9300-ITX WiFi LGA 775 Mini ITX Intel Motherboard with 2 or 4GB of decent speed ram?


----------



## I800C0LLECT

MarkZ said:


> I didn't really mean writes to be HDD to RAM. I thought there were a considerable number of disk writes during boot, creating a disk cache and whatever else. That's why they tell you to "shut down" instead of just cutting power.


Hrmmm. You're referring to the page file. You are correct in that it is created. But the page file size is subjective. Based upon the user and their software setup boot times can be incredibly long.

Page file performance is based on MANY variables and principles. Let me see if I can dig up a good read on this. However, the basic principle is that a CPU can only process information that exists within the actual RAM. But, the RAM is not large enough to hold EVERY file. The operating system then determines how "large" a page file should be in relationship to the amount of RAM installed. All page files are written to the empty space on your hard drive. The more space available on your HD, the longer your PC can run before XP gives you a blue screen or slows to a crawl. It also means there is somewhat of a performance curve based on your HD's performance+space available as well as RAM's perform+space available. In addition, if your basic routine says that only programs X and Y are utilized then your page file system probably won't grow any further than those two programs and whatever the OS services are running in the background.

While I search for the page file link here's another read on how to optimize your partitions for speed and longevity.

Scroll down to the 11th post I believe?
Is it recommended to have a separate HDD for OS?


----------



## I800C0LLECT

t3sn4f2 said:


> Would the Intel be an overkill if I am using say a ZOTAC GeForce 9300-ITX WiFi LGA 775 Mini ITX Intel Motherboard with 2 or 4GB of decent speed ram?




Hrmm. Voice software needs a lot of resources typically. It will take up a lot of the available processing power from your CPU. In addition, you'll need to be able to support that with RAM. In this case I would assume that 2GB of RAM would suffice your need but you'd need a good idea of what the front end software needs for RAM along with other background programs. We don't want a continual reference back to your page file. The goal is to have enough RAM for all the software files, necessary for the programs to function. Otherwise, and this isn't particular to SSD's, you can instigate a nasty problem referred to as cache thrashing where a continual loop exists for information being transferred from the HD to the RAM.


----------



## MarkZ

Good read, thanks. Looks like they recommend partitioning the windows machine the same way *nix systems automatically partition themselves.


----------



## t3sn4f2

I800C0LLECT said:


> *Hrmm. Voice software needs a lot of resources typically. It will take up a lot of the available processing power from your CPU. In addition, you'll need to be able to support that with RAM. In this case I would assume that 2GB of RAM would suffice your need but you'd need a good idea of what the front end software needs for RAM along with other background programs. * We don't want a continual reference back to your page file. The goal is to have enough RAM for all the software files, necessary for the programs to function. Otherwise, and this isn't particular to SSD's, you can instigate a nasty problem referred to as cache thrashing where a continual loop exists for information being transferred from the HD to the RAM.


Thanks. That helps steer my monies in the right direction.


----------



## cvjoint

Unfortunately the rare phase plug Scan Speak drivers I got in the mail from Denmark came in pieces but...the carputer build goes on:

Final list (updated SSD, CPU, Cooling setup, power supply, optical drive, USB Hub, cables)

m-board
Intel Desktop Board DG41MJ - Overview
88 bucks on negg

processor
Newegg.com - Intel Pentium E5200 Wolfdale 2.5GHz 2MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor - Processors - Desktops
70 bucks on negg

heat sink
SilverStone Technology Co., Ltd - Designing Inspiration[/QUOTE]
20 bucks (low profile, good reviews, it gots copper!)

memory
Newegg.com - mushkin 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory
*I just picked this one based on negg reviews. Good brand?
Here is a link for a compatible 4 gb sets that fit my board:
Newegg.com - Computer Hardware,Memory,Desktop Memory,240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM,DDR2 400 - DDR2 900,1.8V,DDR2 800 (PC2 6400),2GB - 4GB,4GB (2 x 2GB),
*It looks like we'll be able to perform the 2gb vs. 4gb test! 
44 bucks

hdd
Newegg.com - OCZ Vertex Series OCZSSD2-1VTX30G 2.5" 30GB SATA II MLC Internal Solid state disk (SSD) - Solid State Disks
130 bucks

case
4th Gen Mini ITX Case for Carputer Car PC with PCI Slot [MCS-BIC-PCI] - $97.00 : Mobile Computing Solutions: For Your Car PC Carputer and Kiosk Computer
97 bucks (includes pci raiser and its own 50mm fan)
*I may have to drill one of the endplates to accomodate external power supply and two additional fans

powersupply
www.opussolutions.net
Opus just released this 360w unit (it comes with a cable kit, whatever that is) 188 bucks
*I hate that they haven't answered my week old email

audio card
M-AUDIO Delta 1010LT Sound Card - US41077 - Buy.com
160 bucks

Screens
Xenarc 7 High Bright LCD Touch Screen Monitor w/ VGA [702TSV] - $470.40 : Microsupply.com - Discount Electronics, Computer Parts, Laptop Accessories and Computers
470 bucks

Slim DVD burner
Panasonic UJ-875 Slim Slot load DVD±R/±RW/+RDL/RAM Multi Drive
83 bucks (to support MP3 car)

Slim enclosure USB coversion
Ultra Slim External Enclosure USB 2.0/FireWire
14 bucks

Volume Knob
Griffin Powermate Volume Knob 1100-PWRMTS
45 bones

Powered Hub:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817145036
17 bucks (seems to be good for long distances)

Power cable adaptors:
Extra Monitor Power Cable
Probably need 4 of these: two for the screens one for the USB Hub, one for external HDD
5 bucks a pop

VGA Male to Male 25ft cables for the monitors
Newegg.com - Rosewill 25 ft. VGA Male to Male Coaxial cable Model RC-25-VG-MM-BK - Cables
13 bucks each

USB 16 foot extension cable from hub to motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812224004
$11 says it's a 'repeater' cable, better for long runs. ummm what is that?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812270158
USB cables 6 foot 7 devices to hub
$2.3 a pop. Male to Male is ok right?

Total ~ $2000. Without adding the second screen this combination is ~$1500 - cheaper than the Audisson Bit one and Alpine W505 combo I'm trying to beat. 

GPS, bluetooth and multi card reader later, it seems like bluetooth is a ***** to get right.



t3sn4f2 said:


> This might be an important read, depending on what you want from an SSD......
> 
> bit-tech.net | Review - OCZ Vertex 120GB SSD





I800C0LLECT said:


> What's *MOST IMPORTANT* about this review are the *AVERAGE READ* speeds. Although burst rates are still better on traditional HD's the sustained average read is as good or better with SSD's. In the last year or so, MLC (type of memory/storage) based drives are particularly better when you have intensive WRITING demands. People who are very demanding, i.e. pc for a living, would fall into this realm.
> 
> In your application, read speeds are most important.


I am very sold on the Vertex SSD. One of the easiest choices based on the recommendations and link above.


----------



## cvjoint

Software and the B-tooth, GPS compatiblity first try:

Based on this guy's remarks (netchris at centrafuse forum), I can use the Centrafuse interface (Centrafuse | CarPC Front-end Software) with ASIO:

_"you can make asio work right now if you want. use virtual audio cable (Virtual Audio Cable Home Page) as the default system output device, then install asio4all (ASIO4ALL - Universal ASIO Driver). select the virtual audio cable for your input and your sound card for your output.. then install console (console sound modular studio : Host for VST Plugins & DirectX(DX) | How to use | Buying | Useful Information) and select asio4all as your asio device.

from here you can just run console's inputs directly to your outputs, or you can take the opportunity to add in some fun vst plugins like curveeq (Voxengo) which you can use in conjunction with a RTA mic to automatically level out your frequency response curve. im using this setup as a 3 way crossover (found a plugin but forgot the link) to do active crossover -- even have a few milliseconds of delay for the left channels!

this setup may sound hefty but it uses <5% cpu. it even works with non asio cards, but the best part is it works with any program since its input is set as the default system output.

a few more thoughts... i know for a fact asio4all bypasses kmixer, and i am *pretty* certain that VAC does as well, since the documentation mentions the cable mixing the multiple channels together (ie not kmixer), and you can specify sampling frequency -- no more stupid 48kHz kmixer!"_

I will need to research more to make sure Centrafuse and the ASIO gear I'm getting are 100% compatible, then I can select Bluetooth adapter and GPS gear. Here is the preliminary software roundup:

Interface: 
Centrafuse (w.naviagation)

VST host:
Console or Audiomulch

VST's:
Crossover -> LSfilter or Rubber filter

EQ -> Electri-Q 64 band parametric

Time Delay -> Voxengo Delay 

Phase -> Phasebug


----------



## BigRed

audison bit one - $600
alpine 505 - $850

total $1450

ummmm....how is your combo cheaper?


----------



## t3sn4f2

cvjoint said:


> USB 16 foot extension cable from hub to motherboard
> Newegg.com - GWC 16.4 ft. USB 2.0 Repeater Cable Model AR2500- 5M - Cables
> $11 says it's a 'repeater' cable, better for long runs. ummm what is that?


USB _cables_ have a maximum cable length of 15 feet. Anything greater needs a repeater (ie a power or bus power hub or a bus powered extender on the end of a special usb cable).

wiki usb has the details.

Also, get a high quality cable like one made by Lindy.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

BigRed said:


> audison bit one - $600
> alpine 505 - $850
> 
> total $1450
> 
> ummmm....how is your combo cheaper?




You didn't add navigation  Bluetooth module? I think he wins out with his ability to tweak, tune, and add extras. It's much more personal too, tailored for his vehicle.


----------



## cvjoint

I800C0LLECT said:


> You didn't add navigation  Bluetooth module? I think he wins out with his ability to tweak, tune, and add extras. It's much more personal too, tailored for his vehicle.


That is very true this carputer can also 
burn DVDs 
store music on a HDD 
has an integrated audio card with a mic pre-amp (easily over $300 to get their USB counterparts), 
eliminates the need for a laptop to tune, 
USB connection means Ipod adapter built in, 
Wi-Fi capability 
it also seems to do all the things the combo can do better...but we need to verify 
meh we don't need the above because...



BigRed said:


> audison bit one - $600
> alpine 505 - $850
> 
> total $1450
> 
> ummmm....how is your combo cheaper?


You are forgetting something Jim. How about the PAC TR7, or the special Alpine funkyfied optical cable to get your rig going? U don't know how much I hated when Alpine dicked around with their proprietary cables and adaptors. I also heard the Bit One is $800 bucks, but then again I couldn't verify because it's a dealer only item. This list is available to anybody with an internet connection but you don't always have an Audisson dealer available. I'll give you one thing, it doesn't have radio even though I've found units for it I just don't care for radio. Should we put the ability to cut pork to the list above? 



t3sn4f2 said:


> USB _cables_ have a maximum cable length of 15 feet. Anything greater needs a repeater (ie a power or bus power hub or a bus powered extender on the end of a special usb cable).
> 
> wiki usb has the details.
> 
> Also, get a high quality cable like one made by Lindy.


Sounds great, I'll look up this brand and do some homework on this.


----------



## cvjoint

So the extension USB draws power from the hub to make this an "active" deal. That's neat, so I guess it's powered by my power supply indirectly though the hub power line. 
Here's the Lindy stuff that I found:
Extension USB
USB Extension - Slimline Active Extension Cable, USB 2.0, 5m | Extension | USB Cables | USB & FireWire | LINDY USA
Microphone cable 
6m XLR Cable - Male to Female, Black | XLR | Music Cables | Cables | LINDY USA
I couldn't find regular short USB cables which is odd.


----------



## MarkZ

FYI, I run a cheap 15ft USB cable to run my touchscreen, dash jack (for file transfers, phone, etc), and remote control and have never had an issue.


----------



## Sponge

I ran an active 20ft cable, big mistake. When it worked, it ran at USB 1.1 speeds and had all kinds of weird issues. I switched out the cable with two 6ft cables daisy chained together and never had a problem. If you don't need to run one, _don't_.


----------



## felix509

Keep in mind that many people have had big issues with touch controllers and usb hubs.. 

I finally had to put a USB card JUST for the touchcreen to make it work reliably.. It would continually 'lose' the connection and the touchkit driver would not detect the screen.

I think you will find quite a bit on this if you search mp3car.

It may be something that Xenarc has resolved.


----------



## t3sn4f2

MarkZ said:


> FYI, I run a cheap 15ft USB cable to run my touchscreen, dash jack (for file transfers, phone, etc), and remote control and have never had an issue.


I hear ya, but a quality one is only a couple dollars more. A cheaper one might be the same quality but how would you know. If something happens later on you loose the money you paid for the cheap one, you gotta buy a new one, and you gotta gut the car again to switch it out.


----------



## BigRed

the price I mentioned included the nav. for the alpine. 

I'm not argueing with ya  You just added your list up and said it is 1500 dollars less than the 505 and bit one combo 

don't forget about the lag time to boot up, or did you have a remedy for that?

trust me....I would love to do the carputer thing, just too much going on at the moment. I've pondered it alot. I'll wait for you to get yours dialed in George, and then follow suit  

I'm not a big fan of Alpine either, but I've alread got the chit man!! yknow?


----------



## t3sn4f2

BigRed said:


> the price I mentioned included the nav. for the alpine.
> 
> I'm not argueing with ya  You just added your list up and said it is 1500 dollars less than the 505 and bit one combo
> 
> *don't forget about the lag time to boot up, or did you have a remedy for that?*
> 
> trust me....I would love to do the carputer thing, just too much going on at the moment. I've pondered it alot. I'll wait for you to get yours dialed in George, and then follow suit
> 
> I'm not a big fan of Alpine either, but I've alread got the chit man!! yknow?


A solid state drive and a ON trigger before you get in the car from your key less entry remote (yeah you have to get innovative to make it work seamlessly, saves at least 20 sec). Once working, the PC will be on and waiting for you even before you turn the key, thats even faster then fully loaded down navi head unit.


----------



## BigRed

cool deal. i hate lag times. damn windows


----------



## Sponge

Haha, I thought about a startup key FOB. Its an easy addition too, might still add it...

Logisys 12 Volt Remote Control (RM01) - FrozenCPU.com


----------



## cvjoint

Sponge said:


> I ran an active 20ft cable, big mistake. When it worked, it ran at USB 1.1 speeds and had all kinds of weird issues. I switched out the cable with two 6ft cables daisy chained together and never had a problem. If you don't need to run one, _don't_.


Lol 6ft + 6ft do not equal 20ft, but yeah I gottcha. Unfortunately I do need up to 20ft from the Hondata unit to the carputer and that's the longest run. So I'm thinking the hub with 3ft usb cables for all 7 components in the elbow rest and an extension of the hub usb to the carputer that is about 15ft. 



felix509 said:


> Keep in mind that many people have had big issues with touch controllers and usb hubs..
> 
> I finally had to put a USB card JUST for the touchcreen to make it work reliably.. It would continually 'lose' the connection and the touchkit driver would not detect the screen.
> 
> I think you will find quite a bit on this if you search mp3car.
> 
> It may be something that Xenarc has resolved.


On it. Worst case scenario I will run independent cables, but it just seems a bit redundant. Luckily the case I'm looking at can be acquired with 4 extra usb ports and the board supports them.



t3sn4f2 said:


> I hear ya, but a quality one is only a couple dollars more. A cheaper one might be the same quality but how would you know. If something happens later on you loose the money you paid for the cheap one, you gotta buy a new one, and you gotta gut the car again to switch it out.


I'm expecting little glitches. I'm buying the best solution to beggin with and install everything out of the car with an A/C D/C power supply first. So far I think the active cable should have the best chance, I mean why else would it exist. I'm hoping some brands will work great.



BigRed said:


> the price I mentioned included the nav. for the alpine.
> 
> I'm not argueing with ya  You just added your list up and said it is 1500 dollars less than the 505 and bit one combo
> 
> don't forget about the lag time to boot up, or did you have a remedy for that?
> 
> trust me....I would love to do the carputer thing, just too much going on at the moment. I've pondered it alot. I'll wait for you to get yours dialed in George, and then follow suit
> 
> I'm not a big fan of Alpine either, but I've alread got the chit man!! yknow?


Well we don't all have those kinds of hookups, the ebay price for the Alpine is just that without the nav. Gotta be fair when comparing prices. It's really more than fair. If you think about it we're not trying to replicate the Alpine/Bit one combo, we are trying to do better than that. How much better is a function of cost. To simply replicate it you shouldn't need more than 800 bucks, the cheapest Atom board is light years ahead of the combo. The screen and radio is the only piece of hardware that makes the Alpine an ok unit in terms of pricing. 

It's funny that you mention boot up time, with the bluetooth adapter by W200 Alpine took more than 2 minutes to load at times.  My XP partition on the laptop is using a light version of Windows and boots up in a little over 20 secs. Now imagine that with a top notch solid state drive and a much better processor. If you don't want to go the whole nine yards you can do a simpler audio processor that is not ASIO and hibernate for the ultimate turn on times. I don't think this is an issue anymore Jim. Hop on for the carputer ride! I don't know you as the kind of guy to use it till it brakes. How often did you change that amp rack again?


----------



## MarkZ

It's weird. I've been running carPCs for about 10 years now, and lag times never bothered me. I never listen to music when I first turn the car on. It's usually because I'm parked somewhere, and I think it's rude to crank while parked. So getting 30 seconds away from my starting point is a fine time to start listening.


----------



## t3sn4f2

MarkZ said:


> It's weird. I've been running carPCs for about 10 years now, and lag times never bothered me. I never listen to music when I first turn the car on. It's usually because I'm parked somewhere, and I think it's rude to crank while parked. So getting 30 seconds away from my starting point is a fine time to start listening.


30 sec is nice, it'll fly by in everyday use. 

Did you ever get the key less entry thing integrated into your start up?


----------



## cvjoint

You guys are really making me think about using the remote start feature on car alarm. I never enabled it for safety reasons (stick shift transmission) but now I find it may be quite an asset in the equation. It's also nice to warm up the engine so I can engage Vtec at normal temperatures and to reduce engine wear.


----------



## cvjoint

Bought everything but sound card and power supply today.
Some changes:
*bought the Dlink hub instead for a few reasons: the Bytech had bad reviews, unpopular seemed to draw very little power from it's power supply just enough to power one usb at full throtle. The Dlink was the most popular hub on newegg, it draws the most power, over 2.5 amps, and I found this link to connected it to my power supply, so somebody allready tried it with success:
see last post: Powered vs. non-powered USB Hubs - Centrafuse Carputer, CarPC & UMPC Forums

*bought two 16ft active USB extenders different brands to get higher chances of making it work
*bought two 15ft passive USB extenders in case the active ones fail or the touchscreen monitors don't work with the hub
*DVI-D to VGA adaptor for the motherboard second screen output. I spend an hour figuring out which DVI connections the board has, be careful. 
*bought Centrafuse 2 with Navigation interface
*bought blue tooth dongle compatible with Centrafuse
*bought GPS receiver compatible with Centrafuse

What's left:
Audio card
Centrafuse doesn't have M-Audio compatibility, but then again neither does it say it can do Asio and apparently one guy got it to work so I may still buy this one. Need to call Centrafuse and investigate tomorrow.

Power Supply
The 360W and 250w powersupplies from Opus say they only have regulated 12v out and I need 5V for the hub. Need to call them and investigate tomorrow. 

Wish me luck guys, there is a very good chance:
**** won't fit in the case
**** will not power on off
hub can't be powered
**** will not be compatible with Centrafuse
any of my extensions won't work due to long runs
gender cables won't match
can't integrate aluminum screen case in the dash
shall I go on?


----------



## newtitan

cvjoint said:


> Bought everything but sound card and power supply today.
> Some changes:
> *bought the Dlink hub instead for a few reasons: the Bytech had bad reviews, unpopular seemed to draw very little power from it's power supply just enough to power one usb at full throtle. The Dlink was the most popular hub on newegg, it draws the most power, over 2.5 amps, and I found this link to connected it to my power supply, so somebody allready tried it with success:
> see last post: Powered vs. non-powered USB Hubs - Centrafuse Carputer, CarPC & UMPC Forums
> 
> *bought two 16ft active USB extenders different brands to get higher chances of making it work
> *bought two 15ft passive USB extenders in case the active ones fail or the touchscreen monitors don't work with the hub
> *DVI-D to VGA adaptor for the motherboard second screen output. I spend an hour figuring out which DVI connections the board has, be careful.
> *bought Centrafuse 2 with Navigation interface
> *bought blue tooth dongle compatible with Centrafuse
> *bought GPS receiver compatible with Centrafuse
> 
> What's left:
> Audio card
> Centrafuse doesn't have M-Audio compatibility, but then again neither does it say it can do Asio and apparently one guy got it to work so I may still buy this one. Need to call Centrafuse and investigate tomorrow.
> 
> *Power Supply
> The 360W and 250w powersupplies from Opus say they only have regulated 12v out and I need 5V for the hub. Need to call them and investigate tomorrow. *


look into the carnetix 2400, they are a external PSU, but come in a metal case easy to mount, and have a dedicated 12C,and you can buy a 5V attachment


and as far as thw maudio card VERY bad driver support, so you may get it to work, id do some research on either DUAL asus cards (and asio), and or dual ht omega's (and asio of course) MUCH better op amps on both cards imo 

usb hubs are fine, but keep your screen, keyboard (id highly recommend the dinovo mini), bluetooth and griffin on the *MAIN board*, and use the hub for things like hard drives, and or other external stuff...ive used the dlinks and they work very well

as far as bluetooth, centrafuse is the easiest to get working right (make sure you use an adapter that is approved from the forums) but sits costly!!!!.. imo the current roadrunner/riderunner is VERY awesome and FREE takes some serious read time to get it set up, but the folks ate mp3car.com forums are FASt with regards to upgrades 

Road Runner - MP3Car.com

and if you havent bought it already, yo might wnat to look into the new 775 zotac board, best mini itx on the market right now

ZOTAC GeForce 9300-ITX WiFi LGA 775 Mini ITX Intel Motherboard

the video chipset is a beast (less cpu power) and comes with wifi intergrated, etc etc

great build you have going, and nice thread tooo!!!


have a good time, you are in for a ride thats for sure, but if you get it right, there is no deck processor on the market thats better than what you have going

mine carpc is still in the closet unfinished, ran out of time lately with added work and kids lol


----------



## jdc753

I haven't had the chance to read this entire thread but I am gonna have to go back through it to see what audiophile upgrades I need to make to my carpc.

I have the same slot load DVD and enclosure as well as an OPUS PSU (only 320watt though) 

I know we have different PSU's but for mine it is true that it only has a regulated 12v out, I am using it to power my monitor instead of risking it with unregulated vehicle power. To get regulated 5v out just tap into any of your HDD connectors. The Red wire will give you +5V DC while the yellow will give you +12v DC and both black wires are ground wires. To make it easier too you can simply by y-connectors or hack out pieces from a old computer so you don't need to cut up your OPUS harness.









X2 on using Roadrunner, I love it so far and I am not very good with software (only good at hardware lol) Its really not all that hard to setup and as mentioned is free and has tons of people working on it. 

I see you already got a solid state disk and Dang looks like they have come down in price. I was going to say though that I don't totally see them as necessary. I was leary of using a standard HDD in my truck at first but my old (read expendable) Maxtor 120GB has served me well for nearly a year riding around in my 1-ton pickup. It has booted up down to 10°, granted it too a bit of time to build some heat to start but did eventually start numerous times at that temp from a overnight cold soak. 

Not sure if you are planning on using a keyboard or touchpad mouse or anything but I am using this keyboard http://usb.brando.com.hk/usb-mini-multimedia-keyboard_p00196c034d015.html and love it but I see that they have numerous other cool mini keyboards and wireless units as well. Might have to get me a new one, something like this maybe, http://usb.brando.com.hk/usb-2-4ghz-rf-wireless-tiny-keyboard-with-trackball_p00897c034d015.html

Best of luck on the rest now I need to go back and reread what you are using for audio software and hardware.


----------



## felix509

One more thing i struggled with on my build

Getting the video adapter to put out the correct resolution for the Xenarc.. My first board had Intel 965g chipset and there was absolutely no way i was getting 800x480 from it. 

Tried custom EDID driver made by the same guy that does Roadrunner, tried powerstrip. 

No Go

Changed to an nVidia card and it worked with no hassle, resolution was built into the driver.


----------



## t3sn4f2

felix509 said:


> One more thing i struggled with on my build
> 
> Getting the video adapter to put out the correct resolution for the Xenarc.. My first board had Intel 965g chipset and there was absolutely no way i was getting 800x480 from it.
> 
> Tried custom EDID driver made by the same guy that does Roadrunner, tried powerstrip.
> 
> No Go
> 
> Changed to an nVidia card and it worked with no hassle, resolution was built into the driver.


Great point, that's why I like the Zotac boards.


----------



## cvjoint

newtitan said:


> look into the carnetix 2400, they are a external PSU, but come in a metal case easy to mount, and have a dedicated 12C,and you can buy a 5V attachment
> 
> 
> and as far as thw maudio card VERY bad driver support, so you may get it to work, id do some research on either DUAL asus cards (and asio), and or dual ht omega's (and asio of course) MUCH better op amps on both cards imo
> 
> usb hubs are fine, but keep your screen, keyboard (id highly recommend the dinovo mini), bluetooth and griffin on the *MAIN board*, and use the hub for things like hard drives, and or other external stuff...ive used the dlinks and they work very well
> 
> as far as bluetooth, centrafuse is the easiest to get working right (make sure you use an adapter that is approved from the forums) but sits costly!!!!.. imo the current roadrunner/riderunner is VERY awesome and FREE takes some serious read time to get it set up, but the folks ate mp3car.com forums are FASt with regards to upgrades
> 
> Road Runner - MP3Car.com
> 
> and if you havent bought it already, yo might wnat to look into the new 775 zotac board, best mini itx on the market right now
> 
> ZOTAC GeForce 9300-ITX WiFi LGA 775 Mini ITX Intel Motherboard
> 
> the video chipset is a beast (less cpu power) and comes with wifi intergrated, etc etc
> 
> great build you have going, and nice thread tooo!!!
> 
> 
> have a good time, you are in for a ride thats for sure, but if you get it right, there is no deck processor on the market thats better than what you have going
> 
> mine carpc is still in the closet unfinished, ran out of time lately with added work and kids lol


Carnetix is nice but it doesn't have enough juice output (i'm going for minimum 250w) and no ATX connector. I think the Opus would do similar things if I combine the 360w unit for carputer and 12v and the 15w unit for 5V. I would have to build a case for it with fans but I should end up with more compatibility and output.

Why would I need TWO Asus cards? It looks like a 7.1 card to me, I only need 8 outputs. Right now I'm split between the two cards, this and the M-Audio especially since centrafuse is for sure compatible with the Asus.

I already have the top of the line logitech blue tooth keyboard and mouse, I can use them while tunning the engine and audio processor by using the front usb connection I'm going to make. On the go the dual touchscreens and powermate volume knob will do the work 

Zotac board is a no go for me. Id does not have PCI, only PCIe, no options for PCI cards. I don't think USB cards or Firewire audio cards are feasible on the Mini ITX carputer boards, they are going to die... and firewire is not supported.

I had no idea Road Runner exists... Centrafuse it is, I already bought it and compatible bluetooth dongle 8 bucks and GPS receiver 35 bucks. I found link where guys got ASIO to work with it so I was sold, plus it's 50% off now.




jdc753 said:


> I haven't had the chance to read this entire thread but I am gonna have to go back through it to see what audiophile upgrades I need to make to my carpc.
> 
> I have the same slot load DVD and enclosure as well as an OPUS PSU (only 320watt though)
> 
> I know we have different PSU's but for mine it is true that it only has a regulated 12v out, I am using it to power my monitor instead of risking it with unregulated vehicle power. To get regulated 5v out just tap into any of your HDD connectors. The Red wire will give you +5V DC while the yellow will give you +12v DC and both black wires are ground wires. To make it easier too you can simply by y-connectors or hack out pieces from a old computer so you don't need to cut up your OPUS harness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> X2 on using Roadrunner, I love it so far and I am not very good with software (only good at hardware lol) Its really not all that hard to setup and as mentioned is free and has tons of people working on it.
> 
> I see you already got a solid state disk and Dang looks like they have come down in price. I was going to say though that I don't totally see them as necessary. I was leary of using a standard HDD in my truck at first but my old (read expendable) Maxtor 120GB has served me well for nearly a year riding around in my 1-ton pickup. It has booted up down to 10°, granted it too a bit of time to build some heat to start but did eventually start numerous times at that temp from a overnight cold soak.
> 
> Not sure if you are planning on using a keyboard or touchpad mouse or anything but I am using this keyboard Welcome to Usb.brando.com.hk and love it but I see that they have numerous other cool mini keyboards and wireless units as well. Might have to get me a new one, something like this maybe, Welcome to Usb.brando.com.hk
> 
> Best of luck on the rest now I need to go back and reread what you are using for audio software and hardware.


Sweet, thanks a lot for the 5V update. This thread is getting very full of right information. You go me sold on finding 5V and 12V solution, every device will run of regulated power. If only Opus support would answer their emails. 

Covered the rest in previous post. 



felix509 said:


> One more thing i struggled with on my build
> 
> Getting the video adapter to put out the correct resolution for the Xenarc.. My first board had Intel 965g chipset and there was absolutely no way i was getting 800x480 from it.
> 
> Tried custom EDID driver made by the same guy that does Roadrunner, tried powerstrip.
> 
> No Go
> 
> Changed to an nVidia card and it worked with no hassle, resolution was built into the driver.





t3sn4f2 said:


> Great point, that's why I like the Zotac boards.


Well the built in Video and chipset combo is a bit better than the one you tried to use. Zotac just doesn't strike me as a good audio board. I think there is maybe one option for an audio card that's not usb, I think the Asus PCIe might fit. However if it doesn't work you are stuck with it nobody else make an audio card that fits. Also at this point you NEED to manufacture a case yourself or get a very large non mobile unit. If I were able to fit a 15 inch HD screen than I would give the thumbs up to Zotac but Audio is no 1 here and video is very basic. I hope I have that resolution...we'll see.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

ASUSTeK Computer Inc.

I happened to see this...what are your thoughts?


----------



## bobdole369

Asus Xonar Essence STX Review » Page 3 - Closer Look (Drivers & Programs) - Overclockers Club


Haven't looked at the review, it's specs are nice, no obvious mention of ASIO support, or the mapping/ routing deal that I'm looking for (to run xover/ta/etc. )


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Looks like it's limited...the input is line level and through a 4 pin header on the board.

Package Contents
Xonar™ Essence STX 2 Channel PCI Express Audio Card
RCA to 3.5mm Y cable 
6.3mm to 3.5mm adaptor 
S/PDIF TOSLINK optical adaptors *1
Driver CD 
Quick Start Guide 
Audio Precision test report


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Quote:

"The Essence STX has ASIO 2.0 support, which means it can bypass the Windows mixer. Foobar2000 is a free audio media player that supports various plugins, so I loaded it up with ASIO and WASAPI support. WASAPI is another method of bypassing the Windows mixer. By default, foobar2000 would output to the default sound device via DirectSound. With the ASIO plugin loaded, you can go to the Output->ASIO Virtual Devices and click on Add New. On the ASIO Virtual Device Editor you can click on Configure and then set the latency lower. This doesn't make any difference in audio quality, but it makes the response slightly faster, so you may as well. Then, the Xonar Essence STX is available as an ASIO device. You could also choose WASAPI or DirectSound output modes."


----------



## cvjoint

I800C0LLECT said:


> ASUSTeK Computer Inc.
> 
> I happened to see this...what are your thoughts?


It's good because:
has a shield to reduce interference
uses burr brown devices
Asio compatible

BAD:
There hasn't been a single find where someone got it to work with a 4 way on console
Some guy got it to work with a 3 way, apparently the front channels cannot be rerouted for some reason

I think I have enough compatibility issues to worry about as it is I am skipping on the Asus until someone else makes it work. This thread clearly outlines my only two options, the M-Audio is the way to go for me:

Is there an ultimate PCI soundcard thread? - MP3Car.com

The other card I know for sure it's kinda low on voltage output and it's tough to get working with a volume knob and some other stuff. I know for sure that the M-audio while not having burr brown components is definitely kosher enough.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Ya...I don't think you can beat it. I need to find a PCI-e version


----------



## felix509

The 1010 is a great card, it will work well for ya!


I will have my list for you asap, i am just home this afternoon..

PS the Burr Brown Name should be in no way be a deciding factor on equipment..


----------



## cvjoint

Just bought the M-Audio card for 110 shipped New on ebay. The guy had 3 available. I couldn't resist, so much bang for the buck 

I know have everything to test the caputer setup indoors. 

I will buy the powersupply once I know everything works, this will most likely be the 360w Opus unit running carputer and 12v devices and the 15w unit for 5V devices. I'm thinking I can use a broken amp case to enclose them and bolt them down to an aluminum plate on the bottom of the amp heatsink
I just got a Parts Express 15% off offer too in an email. I will use that to buy all the power wires, mic cable etc...

I still haven't bought/downloaded any software for audio processing. I'm now open to suggestions on this


----------



## KARPE

i think you have to name your creation once it works


----------



## cvjoint

felix509 said:


> The 1010 is a great card, it will work well for ya!
> 
> 
> I will have my list for you asap, i am just home this afternoon..
> 
> PS the Burr Brown Name should be in no way be a deciding factor on equipment..


Ohh that list...:blush: I got to caught up in buying stuff didn't make the connection :blush:

Let me know about the other gear particularly the 320



KARPE said:


> i think you have to name your creation once it works


Carputerator, Dymamometer, PleasureBox lol There isn't a way not to make it geeky ha ha


----------



## Megalomaniac

cvjoint said:


> Just bought the M-Audio card for 110 shipped New on ebay. The guy had 3 available. I couldn't resist, so much bang for the buck



Nice!


----------



## cvjoint

All the Newegg gear came in today already and some other delivery came in that I couldn't sign for! That is ridiculously fast. Of course pictures are coming soon!


----------



## cvjoint

Today I got in all the Mo.Co.So. parts (mainly case, btooth) the fan came broken.  The Mp3 car gear came in and the ebay audio card too. I'm waiting on the screens then I'll have a picture fest.


----------



## t3sn4f2

cvjoint said:


> Today I got in all the Mo.Co.So. parts (mainly case, btooth) the fan came broken.  The Mp3 car gear came in and the ebay audio card too. I'm waiting on the screens then I'll have a picture fest.


Awesome. I might have missed it, but are you still going to be able to use Centrafuse?


----------



## bobdole369

> I'm now open to suggestions on this


Well console is a must IMHO. It was quite easy for me to make it work with "virtual audio cable", and frequency allocator too.


----------



## MarkZ

bobdole369 said:


> Well console is a must IMHO. It was quite easy for me to make it work with "virtual audio cable", and frequency allocator too.


I actually sort of prefer audiomulch to console. I also started using rubberfilter instead of allocator. Ultimately, most of the differences are usability and system compatibility, so he should just try as much of it as he can.


----------



## bobdole369

> I actually sort of prefer audiomulch to console. I also started using rubberfilter instead of allocator. Ultimately, most of the differences are usability and system compatibility, so he should just try as much of it as he can.


Ooooh, new names and software to check out. I'm about a month or 2 away from doing something quite similar to cvjoint.


----------



## cvjoint

t3sn4f2 said:


> Awesome. I might have missed it, but are you still going to be able to use Centrafuse?


There was a guy who got it to work with console so yes. I'm not sure what platform to use yet this one or Audiomulch. I think most of these cost money so I'll try to make my first choice work.


----------



## qpwoeiruty999

I personally prefer Reaper as i find it more stable/powerful than console. You can also look for the free VSTHost. Now, i personally wouldn't go with Centrafuse as it requires VAC to make it possible to do ASIO processing but i think you break a major target; going bitperfect.

You can better try the RoadRunner (RideRunner) route, as it allows you to use Winamp or even Foobar(they added support before some days). This way, you can send ASIO directly to your soundcard without utilising an Asio wrapper.

BTW, if anyone has an ASIO soundcard that doesn't provide internal routing, you can use Reaper i mentioned above and install the optional Rearoute virtual asio driver. This was, you can output from winamp or foobar to Rearoute and then this signal is made available inside Reaper for processing and sending to your soundcard's output channels

You can get an idea by reading my post over MP3car forums Sound processing and X-Meridian


----------



## cvjoint

qpwoeiruty999 said:


> I personally prefer Reaper as i find it more stable/powerful than console. You can also look for the free VSTHost. Now, i personally wouldn't go with Centrafuse as it requires VAC to make it possible to do ASIO processing but i think you break a major target; going bitperfect.
> 
> You can better try the RoadRunner (RideRunner) route, as it allows you to use Winamp or even Foobar(they added support before some days). This way, you can send ASIO directly to your soundcard without utilising an Asio wrapper.
> 
> BTW, if anyone has an ASIO soundcard that doesn't provide internal routing, you can use Reaper i mentioned above and install the optional Rearoute virtual asio driver. This was, you can output from winamp or foobar to Rearoute and then this signal is made available inside Reaper for processing and sending to your soundcard's output channels
> 
> You can get an idea by reading my post over MP3car forums Sound processing and X-Meridian


Ohhh don't tell me that. I was happy I was getting GPS and Btooth operating. Maybe I can return Centrafuse, I'll see.

My M-audio has internal routing but that is definitely nice to know. I guess using this Reaper program you'd be able to use the Asus card.


----------



## qpwoeiruty999

I guess you got the M-Audio 1010. It's proven to work perfectly as far as i've read in other forums. I personally got the X-Meridian because it has high voltage preamps and also allows me to replace OPAMPS. This will let me expirement with different OPAMPS but that could only be for fun!!! M-Audio 1010 could propably be my first choice if i had to decide now, mainly due to internal routing and great reviews.

Setting up RideRunner is easy, but customising it EXACTLY to your needs, requires some more skills. Being a programmer helps but it definitely isn't a requirement. As far as input is concerned, i use the Space Navigator and i got it to work perfectly. If you decide to buy it, i can send you all config files and even RoadRunner config files so that you'll have an easier task!

In any case, your decision to go Carputer route has a big vote from me, for all the advantages you were seeking for. The bigger plus, at least for me, is the ability to make it exactly how you want, without spending a fortune. It's (almost - 95% ) like having the ability to change headunit, change DSP processor, use it as an RTA etc, whenever you like without spending money! 

Looking forward to see results of your work!


----------



## cvjoint

qpwoeiruty999 said:


> I guess you got the M-Audio 1010. It's proven to work perfectly as far as i've read in other forums. I personally got the X-Meridian because it has high voltage preamps and also allows me to replace OPAMPS. This will let me expirement with different OPAMPS but that could only be for fun!!! M-Audio 1010 could propably be my first choice if i had to decide now, mainly due to internal routing and great reviews.
> 
> Setting up RideRunner is easy, but customising it EXACTLY to your needs, requires some more skills. Being a programmer helps but it definitely isn't a requirement. As far as input is concerned, i use the Space Navigator and i got it to work perfectly. If you decide to buy it, i can send you all config files and even RoadRunner config files so that you'll have an easier task!
> 
> In any case, your decision to go Carputer route has a big vote from me, for all the advantages you were seeking for. The bigger plus, at least for me, is the ability to make it exactly how you want, without spending a fortune. It's (almost - 95% ) like having the ability to change headunit, change DSP processor, use it as an RTA etc, whenever you like without spending money!
> 
> Looking forward to see results of your work!


Do you happen to know the pre-out voltage on the M-audio? I'm having a hard time finding any info on this spec in general on audio cards.

The whole process is a bit scary but overall I'm much more excited to get it going that afraid of downtime.


----------



## cvjoint

The last screen came in the other day and the whole project is now tangible!
I hate to tease so here are the goods:










I've been fascinated with the board and the audio card, so much precision work ha ha. PCI slot is there waiting for a bitchin' audio card



















Talking about delicious, that is a magnificent blue 










The processor ended up coming with a fan. Let me know what you think. My opinion is that it's not worth $20, I might return the upgraded one since it has the same general heatsink structure and fan muscle

Upgrade:









I find it funny that the processor is so much tinier than the fan. It's a fireball in there










Stock and aftermarket head to head:










I still got more pics to come after I get drunk after finals, relax and then grade some papers.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Where did I leave my magnifying glass...........


----------



## t3sn4f2

t3sn4f2 said:


> Where did I leave my magnifying glass...........


Nevermind


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Oh wow...that heatsink deal...uh...well...

Maybe they used copper wrapped with nickel plate on the bottom? You could always check out temperatures on load? The Silverstone looks like it may be quieter due to it's fan.

I'm not sure if it's lighting...but the heatsinks do appear to be different metals?


----------



## cvjoint

t3sn4f2 said:


> Where did I leave my magnifying glass...........


I slept one hour in the last 48, I'm a bit loopy  fixed 



I800C0LLECT said:


> Oh wow...that heatsink deal...uh...well...
> 
> Maybe they used copper wrapped with nickel plate on the bottom? You could always check out temperatures on load? The Silverstone looks like it may be quieter due to it's fan.
> 
> I'm not sure if it's lighting...but the heatsinks do appear to be different metals?


The Silverstone does seem to have a larger base that is copper and not alluminum. The heatsink seems to be made out of the same material but who knows different grades maybe. The chassis is definitely sturdy on the aftermarket...it's...metal vs. plastic lol I'll investigate more when I get back home.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

SilverStone Nitrogon NT07-775 Low Profile CPU Cooler Final Thoughts :: TweakTown


Looks like a mixed bag really...I think I originally threw that heat sink at you because I was suggesting an OEM CPU vs. retail...OEM has no heatsink/fan combo.

sorry about that :/


----------



## cvjoint

I800C0LLECT said:


> SilverStone Nitrogon NT07-775 Low Profile CPU Cooler Final Thoughts :: TweakTown
> 
> 
> Looks like a mixed bag really...I think I originally threw that heat sink at you because I was suggesting an OEM CPU vs. retail...OEM has no heatsink/fan combo.
> 
> sorry about that :/


No worries, it was probably my bad since I knew not to trust Newegg on description, we learned from the motherboard PCI availability. I was thrown off by a buddy of mine too who told me some are OEM and do come without a fan. I'm not concerned at all, it was the right decision given the information available. Who knows, I might keep it after all, it is no doubt slightly better built.

Now what's all this about the case?


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Oh!! Well I fast forwarded to the conclusion in that article. The guy had a problem with air flow in his case. The biggest issue was that intel's stock cooler was not only blocking air flow but gobbling up the air too.

So...the Silverstone fixed that issue. It was shorter...providing better air flow over top which allowed the fan to act in the nature of which it was designed...blowing top down. Since the Intel heatsink was too tall it was fighting itself; trying to pull air in from the same direction it was blowing.

Also, the lower height of the silverstone also allowed the air to move a bit more freely in the case. This allowed the cooling of the PSU to work much more efficiently. In the end, the efficiency of the case was increased and temperatures were dropped even though the Intel heatsink theoretically works better in an "open" environment. But that's the key issue...lower profile can be much more conducive for smaller cases; as well as the fan blade design that they utilized.


----------



## t3sn4f2

I wouldn't rely on those fans regardless, they seem to be more for a case that has a secondary PS fan to remove the hot air that the CPU fans blows away from the CPU. I'd use the OEM one and rig a secondary unit to remove the air from inside the case. Maybe even dremal out a hole on the top of the case over the fan, installing a cylinder of some material around the fan, butted up against the top of the case, so that it pushes the air out that way.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I like the fresh air idea! I'm a big fan of the positive air pressure too. Be sure that you have more fans pulling air into the case than expelling. Positive air pressure forces out ALL of the air in the case. We don't want the hot spots to start marinating.


----------



## cvjoint

I800C0LLECT said:


> Oh!! Well I fast forwarded to the conclusion in that article. The guy had a problem with air flow in his case. The biggest issue was that intel's stock cooler was not only blocking air flow but gobbling up the air too.
> 
> So...the Silverstone fixed that issue. It was shorter...providing better air flow over top which allowed the fan to act in the nature of which it was designed...blowing top down. Since the Intel heatsink was too tall it was fighting itself; trying to pull air in from the same direction it was blowing.
> 
> Also, the lower height of the silverstone also allowed the air to move a bit more freely in the case. This allowed the cooling of the PSU to work much more efficiently. In the end, the efficiency of the case was increased and temperatures were dropped even though the Intel heatsink theoretically works better in an "open" environment. But that's the key issue...lower profile can be much more conducive for smaller cases; as well as the fan blade design that they utilized.


Damn you talk like that I buy everything!



t3sn4f2 said:


> I wouldn't rely on those fans regardless, they seem to be more for a case that has a secondary PS fan to remove the hot air that the CPU fans blows away from the CPU. I'd use the OEM one and rig a secondary unit to remove the air from inside the case. Maybe even dremal out a hole on the top of the case over the fan, installing a cylinder of some material around the fan, butted up against the top of the case, so that it pushes the air out that way.


On to the case since you animals can't wait 




























Notice how the case has two perforations on the sides in addition to the one endcap that can be used for cooling. The layout seems to be with the motherboard on the far end looking at that last pick. This extra room at the front is possibly for a powersupply, which won't fit here I'm sure. So I was thinking:










Up to 6 40mm (or close to that) fans. The case came with only one and it's broken in pieces, go figure. The far right is where the stock fan goes. It just blows air out I assume. We can augment this fan and form a vortex type cooling case. The near endcap can hold up to 3 fans and the case is drilled for another on the near left. The last fan can be far left directly across from where the original case fan blows. both of the far fans would blow air in. Up to four near endcap fans can draw air out. 



I think this design would be the best flowing, simple and efficient:










Notice it requires sealing that near left perforation in the case and perforating the far left. I like it, it's symmetrical and not overkill. 

Imagine that I still have the A/C. That pipe will end right on one of the far fans that blow air in.

I added this one to show one side can get A/C, shown using blue air passages;


----------



## I800C0LLECT

My idea: Intake fans on opposite sides of case(one next to CPU) and one exhaust fan on the end. You can close up whatever holes you have with neoprene or something?

So basically what you described in your photo less one exhaust fan. You might even get away with no exhaust fan. The problem you'll have is whether or not that PCI card is going to block air flow. You might wanna plug the hardware into the mobo and try to see air flow based on orientation of the motherboard. The hottest area will be near the northbridge and CPU. You'll have other hot spots but those two are critical for stability. HD temp is important for longevity of the mechanical parts.

Looking at the mobo you may just have one side with intake fans?


----------



## I800C0LLECT

HORSE SHIAT!!!!

Is your PCI Sound card going to fit in the slot while inside that case?  There might be a need for a riser...(sigh). But even then, with your PCI card parallel to the board, does it have the clearance to do so?!

I'm pissed. I hope this works...I almost needed new pants when you threw out the parts photos. I'd hate for this to be put off longer :mean:


----------



## cvjoint

I800C0LLECT said:


> HORSE SHIAT!!!!
> 
> Is your PCI Sound card going to fit in the slot while inside that case?  There might be a need for a riser...(sigh). But even then, with your PCI card parallel to the board, does it have the clearance to do so?!
> 
> I'm pissed. I hope this works...I almost needed new pants when you threw out the parts photos. I'd hate for this to be put off longer :mean:


You write faster than I can think!

You are right on all accounts, the PCI car will have to fit in the case, but the case is designed for it so it should be ok, I have a PCI outlet on the far end above all the connections. The PCI raiser is going to be an issue for sure. It's going to block any fans on that left far side which explains why they designed the case perforations where they did. The case comes with the raiser. I didn't take pictures of all that wiring and other business yet.

So I see your recc. for more intake than exhaust and I think it's great, makes perfect sense. At the very least the perforations already made can hold two fans but the intake one by the CPU will be a higher flow unit, with the A/C adding some velocity when on. I can easily add another perforated area with a fan right next to the intake one to double this effort. So I guess the design so far is a diagonal flow unit:










I think it's a great theoretical construct but in reality we will rely mostly on pressure to make it's way to the exhaust fan. Think that the memory will be in the way and overall it's very congested in there.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

cvjoint said:


> You write faster than I can think!
> 
> Think that the memory will be in the way and overall it's very congested in there.


You nailed it...it's congested. But that's why I'm so vehement about positive air pressure inside your case; so we don't have stagnant hot spots. But that diagonal flow seems to follow the layout of your board nicely...cpu, nb, memory, with air exiting between the PCI card and memory.

Sorry. I'm a big fan of thinking. I love to read and I only like informative topics  Hence, how I got into DIYMA audio. I'll try to wait for responses!

I'm really excited to see how this works out


----------



## braves6117

Wow, this is coming together, right on!

Very excited, great stuff


----------



## ErinH

dang, man... you mind shooting me a pm with your total price paid? I'm on your heels, I believe...


----------



## BigRed

nice looking build on this puppy so far. question: how much is the processing software, and which one are you focusing in on?


----------



## braves6117

cvjoint said:


> I still got more pics to come after I get drunk after finals, relax and then grade some papers.


 

Actually, the fan on the left is very quiet, and rotates really quickly....I purchased an i7 pentium processor last week, and thats the one that came with it.


----------



## cvjoint

bikinpunk said:


> dang, man... you mind shooting me a pm with your total price paid? I'm on your heels, I believe...


I plan to post a full price paid with shipping and everything once I know what parts will be used for sure. I posted earlier a basic breakdown on top of that I bought the bluetooth dongle, GPS antenna and Centrafuse. With tax and shipping it's about 2400 so far. The thing is it may mean nothing to you because this is geared for my taste and demands. 



BigRed said:


> nice looking build on this puppy so far. question: how much is the processing software, and which one are you focusing in on?


I don't know yet Jim. I was hoping for a handout from people but it ain't coming yet.  I know I'm getting the XP "lite" for free from a friend, and some of the plugins are free. I'll let you know once I decide on something.



braves6117 said:


> Actually, the fan on the left is very quiet, and rotates really quickly....I purchased an i7 pentium processor last week, and thats the one that came with it.


I was impressed on how good the stock one looks. I made more comparison shots last night, it may be too tall to fit in the case properly, namely it will hit the audio card mounted above it. Getting the slim one is dominant strategy for sure.


----------



## cvjoint

The solid state hard:









I think this will bolt down just behind the motherboard on the case. 

Memory:









GPS and multifunction knob:









The antenna will be mounted on the rear windshield next to a pillar. The knob I have to find a place for, probably next to the shifter for easy access. It will look like a 7 series BMW joystick.


Screen:








I'm not sure how to mount these yet. The nice part is that they are very user friendly. First notice that the faceplate comes of at the press of these two side buttons:









The monitor without faceplate:








My initial response is to glass them completely in the dash. I don't want the bottom controls showing at all. These are top of the line so they remember the input, turns on based on feed etc. I just want the touchscreen ability and my multi function volume knob, clean and efficient. The back of the screen will probably come off since I need the clearance.

Fan comparison. Copper and no copper base:









The Silverstone is slimmer by quite a bit:


----------



## Megalomaniac

I mounted my GPS receiver in the tweeter compartment up on the dash. But then again my pc was in the front of the car not in the back :blush:


----------



## cvjoint

Megalomaniac said:


> I mounted my GPS receiver in the tweeter compartment up on the dash. But then again my pc was in the front of the car not in the back :blush:


That's a great idea if I will have to mount it up front. I have three plans in order of preference:
A: mount in the trunk, more airspace available for cooling, fan noise away from cabin and easy access
B: mount behind the sidepanel of the car where the rear wheel well is. Good airspace volume, fan noise ok, no access.
C: mount behind the screens or glove box, little arispace, fan noise too high, ok access. 

This all depends if I can extend all the usbs 20 feet to the trunk.


Anyway, got the first try out session finished today. Here is the beast's innards:

Motherboard and SSD drive mounted on the bottom of the case. On the board I just used screws supplied with the case. On the SSD I used rubber mounting feet provided by the case manuf. Fitment perfect.










Aftermarket fan mounted over the stock, the stocker would not give enough clearance for the PCI audio card. Beware of this with car audio cases, get low profile fan. Anther thing - how to apply silver thermal compound: use just enough, basically a medium sized pallet, like to specs of rice. Use a plastig bag, put over finger and massage the paste perfectly even on the processor and heatsink for air free contact. We ran a test for processor cooling and found our first job sucked, it kept on getting hotter and hotter until we shut it down. After the above treatment it stabilized at 60 degrees C on 100% load for 5 minutes straight! The memory cards went in just perfect too. 2gb boot time vs. 4gb test not performed...yet. Fitment on these parts perfect too.










The case itself proved to be perfect design too until I tried to bolt the PCI audio card...fitment sucked. The PCI card is too large to fit though the endcap slot made for it. It looks like a little bit of dremeling will fix the situation. Longer screws needed to fit the modified PCI slot. Other PCI cards may work I guess, Maudio does not without some metal cutting. ETA 2 days for this fix. We went on to test the motherboard open air the whole day. I used all 110v powersupplies for everything in my livingroom. 










On to the screens. The first one went smooth though the VGA, screen resolution fixes itself automatically, input sensing works and turns itself on, automatically tunes on the right input. Second screen is a disaster. The DVI-D to VGA adaptor doesn't work! Beware this is a useless product from what I can tell. It simply cannot convert from a digital source like DVI or HDMI to analog VGA, it's a scam I'd say. U need a converter worth hundreds of dollars to make it work and possibly suffer conversion loss. Plan B is to purchase another Xenarc screen, possibly the 706 model that has DVI-D input. I'm open to suggestions. The first screen working:










I could not test the M-audio card yet, hardware wise it's detected ok, I need to find a rig to test it on. The Powermate volume knob is bitchin! It has a blue base that can vary in intensity with the volume position. The overall feel is A++ on the product, it rocks, it's heavy and precise with a metal on metal click behavior. 










The culprit of my worries before the install: the hub. Various myths going on here, you can't use a touchscreen usb with it, it crashes under too much load, you can't use a volume control on it, you can't extend a usb more than 15 feet, a repeater cable can make a usb extend 15 feet.
Myth one busted, the xenarc touch screen works perfect of the hub.
Myth two busted I ran a disc in the optical drive, a terabite hdd, and all the other 5 inputs filled with absolutely no issues. 
Myth three busted, the volume control ONLY worked on the hub. Don't ask me why.
Conclusion, this hub RULES!
Myth four supported. A basic USB cable did not work 15feet for any application. 
Myth five supported...partially. The first repeater cable failed! The Sabrent brand repeater cable did not power anything. However, the NO BRAND repeater did. I will update later with the model number for future reference.
Conclusion: The Dlink hub toghether with the right repeater cable will have no problem extending up to 20 feet from the hub! Not only that it will support volume knobs, touchscreens, HDD, optical drive and full load on the ports.










Day one of tryouts summary:
*The PCI slot is problematic and need dremeling. 
*The second screen cannot be connected though a VGA to DVI-D adaptor, adaptor a scam imo u need a real converter - not worth it. 
*Plan A, mount computer in the trunk is feasible, everything works great off the hub.
*Boot up time 25 seconds on XP professional 32 bit with both 2gb memory cards in. 3 more seconds for all the startup icons to load.
*Cooling works great with no case, processor fan and house fan blowing from 3 feet away, 80 degree weather.

I had 3 of my computer savy friends help me in shifts and it was a blast. Carputer journey goes on!


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Good trouble shooting so far. Ya, I never commented on the USB hub issue BECAUSE you don't know what you will get. It really depends on manufacture design, what devices are plugged in, and installation maintenance. Some printers work fine on hubs, others don't. All those observations you made are relevant but they don't apply to every hub. For anybody else...a simple rule is that you want to try and have your most important hardware closest to the root USB ports. Technically you can daisy chain up to 999 devices or something like that but weird things happen when you introduce hubs.

great job so far


----------



## Megalomaniac

I800C0LLECT said:


> Good trouble shooting so far. Ya, I never commented on the USB hub issue BECAUSE you don't know what you will get. It really depends on manufacture design, what devices are plugged in, and installation maintenance. Some printers work fine on hubs, others don't. All those observations you made are relevant but they don't apply to every hub. For anybody else...a simple rule is that you want to try and have your most important hardware closest to the root USB ports. * Technically you can daisy chain up to 999 devices* or something like that but weird things happen when you introduce hubs.
> 
> great job so far



127 devices


----------



## felix509

DVI to VGA absolutely work..


I have used literally hundreds of them, have 8 of them working in front of me as i type.. 


As for the touchscreen working through the hub, have you rebooted a few times with all of your devices hooked up? Does it still find the touchscreen every time? That was my trouble, it worked sometimes, others it did not detect the touchscreen.. I hope Xenarc has fixed this issue..


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Megalomaniac said:


> 127 devices


I believe that's taking into consideration resource management and a few other variables. It's been limited/capped because of memory addressing issues for the most part.

When just talking about a connection, the theoretical limit is much higher for USB. But it'll never be realized, it's just invoking chaos. In addition, I think that's 127 per controller?...or something unreasonable  Anyways, reading it again I see the confusion I created, thanks for clearing it up.


----------



## cvjoint

I800C0LLECT said:


> Good trouble shooting so far. Ya, I never commented on the USB hub issue BECAUSE you don't know what you will get. It really depends on manufacture design, what devices are plugged in, and installation maintenance. Some printers work fine on hubs, others don't. All those observations you made are relevant but they don't apply to every hub. For anybody else...a simple rule is that you want to try and have your most important hardware closest to the root USB ports. Technically you can daisy chain up to 999 devices or something like that but weird things happen when you introduce hubs.
> 
> great job so far


I'm glad I got two brands for that repeater cable for sure. The first one was a miss, but that made the no brand one an even better success. 



felix509 said:


> DVI to VGA absolutely work..
> 
> 
> I have used literally hundreds of them, have 8 of them working in front of me as i type..
> 
> 
> As for the touchscreen working through the hub, have you rebooted a few times with all of your devices hooked up? Does it still find the touchscreen every time? That was my trouble, it worked sometimes, others it did not detect the touchscreen.. I hope Xenarc has fixed this issue..


I shut down several times by now, it works without fail. I only do full shut down however maybe that's why it works? 

How did you get the DVI to VGA to work? I asked around and nobody got it to work before. Online there are all sorts of Q and A that end up in the same conclusion, you need a converter. Now this adapter exists so maybe you are right, but in what situation do they work? The pins are converted but I think the DvI signal is Digital and the other analog.

oh, forgot to mention I'm doing a break in. Apparently some believe the paste can be 'broken in' to work better in the long run. I let it run for close to 20 hours and now I'm shutting it down for at least a day. The last 8 hours it worked in my room with no fan other than the processor one and was rock solid cooling at 38 degrees. I ran it at 100% duty for 7 minutes in this manner and it stabilized at 61 degrees.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Break-in isn't just for paste. A long time ago, they would do "burn in" to help ensure that the transistors were broken in properly. Majority of that is done by the company now days. The idea behind it is run a program similar to orthos or prime95 and find max heat potential. Then, in addition to that be sure that it can be maintained and stable within the environment it will be running. Again, todays standards are different. A good analogy would be engine break in for crate motors.


----------



## dubbreak

felix509 said:


> DVI to VGA absolutely work..
> 
> 
> I have used literally hundreds of them, have 8 of them working in front of me as i type..


They dwn't work with all dvi outputs. The dvi output must have the analog signal (it's just takin the analog pins and mapping them to the vga ones).

DVI-D does not have the analog pins, therefore it will not work with a dvi to vga convertor. There are video cards that have dvi-d (digital only) rather than dvi-I (both analog and digital).

Digital Visual Interface - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Weightless

Yeah, he's right. DVI comes in multiple pin configurations. You have to use DVI-I to connect to a VGA connection. DVI-D is a digital only connection. If your monitor has HDMI it would work.


----------



## bobdole369

Note there are actually 3 versions of DVI. DVI-A, DVI-D, and DVI-I.

I have never seen a (cpu)VGA -> DVI(monitor) converter, except in the case of DVI-A or I (the analog half), being supported on the LCD. We are talking 1999-2003ish era lcd monitors.

I have scads of (cpu)DVI-I ->VGA(monitor) converters, all working perfectly. 

A quick check - if the output from the PC doesn't have the "odd" looking pins on the side - it is not DVI-A or I, and doesn't have the analog signal, and won't work with a converter. 

DVI-I is the most common output from a PC. Sometimes labeled "dual-link" or universal DVI - this has the digital AND the analog signal on the wire. Converters take the analog RGB VGA signal from the odd pins and remap it into a 15 pin HD D-sub connector for a typical older monitor. 

DVI-D is sometimes on PC's with 2 outputs. Essentially all the MB maker did was to do the analog signal remapping for you. They already took the analog pins and supplied a hd d-sub 15 pin connector, so they aren't available on the DVI connector. No conversion, without resampling and a processor is possible. Any converters cost over $100 for DVI-D into VGA (and are few and far between, I'm sure they exist, but I've never seen one).


----------



## cvjoint

Wow great coverage guys. That makes a whole lot of sense now, when I bought it I thought it was just a pin configuration for jack compatibility. I still don't understand why there would be a DVI-D adaptor out there. It makes sense for the analog versions only. 
I'm planning to get this screen instead for the DVI-D output:
Xenarc Technologies - 706TSA - 7" Touchscreen TFT LCD Monitor with DVI, VGA, and AV inputs

It looks like it comes with box for 'easy installation' but it may be a digital-analog converter.

I wonder if I should get their proprietary extension cable or a long DVI


----------



## _Dejan_

Hi guys,
Im read this thread and see that you are talking about carpc...

newtitan has recommended Carnetix P2140 power supply. Im using it cca. 2 months and few weeks ago It has die. My complete carpc
-motherboard
-Intel P8400 CPU(2x2,26GHz)
-2GB DDR3 SODIMM
-Intel X25M 80GB SSD
-Novatel EU850D UMTS/HSDPA/HSUPA mini pci express card
-Sparklan mini pci WLAN card(n-draft)
-GlobalSat ET-332 GPS board with custom made TTL board
-DSX12VD power regulator
-Lilliput 8" LCD with LED backlight
-USB Hub
-Dlink DBT120 BT module
-USB PDC (Custom USB parking system)

draw beetwen 2-4A so it has not been overloaded... Before P2140 Im using DSATX220 which can put out 220W and before DSATX M2-ATX which can put out 140W(or 160W I don't remember)...

Because in this thread talking about soundcards I will try here find solution for me...
I need one DAC or sound card which will be connected to Audison BitOne audio processor with optical cable.
What I need:
-Optical output
-USB connection
-for Mic input I will use on onboard sound card on my PC(Realtek ALC888)
-Working with Windows 7
-Must normaly work with S3 sleep & hibernate

Can someone help find me any good solution? 
Thanks.

Regards, _Dejan_


----------



## t3sn4f2

_Dejan_ said:


> Hi guys,
> Im read this thread and see that you are talking about carpc...
> 
> newtitan has recommended Carnetix P2140 power supply. Im using it cca. 2 months and few weeks ago It has die. My complete carpc
> -motherboard
> -Intel P8400 CPU(2x2,26GHz)
> -2GB DDR3 SODIMM
> -Intel X25M 80GB SSD
> -Novatel EU850D UMTS/HSDPA/HSUPA mini pci express card
> -Sparklan mini pci WLAN card(n-draft)
> -GlobalSat ET-332 GPS board with custom made TTL board
> -DSX12VD power regulator
> -Lilliput 8" LCD with LED backlight
> -USB Hub
> -Dlink DBT120 BT module
> -USB PDC (Custom USB parking system)
> 
> draw beetwen 2-4A so it has not been overloaded... Before P2140 Im using DSATX220 which can put out 220W and before DSATX M2-ATX which can put out 140W(or 160W I don't remember)...
> 
> Because in this thread talking about soundcards I will try here find solution for me...
> I need one DAC or sound card which will be connected to Audison BitOne audio processor with optical cable.
> What I need:
> -Optical output
> -USB connection
> -for Mic input I will use on onboard sound card on my PC(Realtek ALC888)
> -Working with Windows 7
> -Must normaly work with S3 sleep & hibernate
> 
> Can someone help find me any good solution?
> Thanks.
> 
> Regards, _Dejan_



BEHRINGER: UCA202

Should work in Windows 7 as well since these types of devices use *Window's built in USB speaker driver* and don't require 3rd party drivers. *That will also eliminate any hibernation or standby issues that come along with 3rd party drivers.* Don't worry about the low price, digital output quality on all of these USB to S/PDIF converters is excellent.

Edit: To further clarify, its not merely driverless USB devices (there are a few versions of those). The ability to hibernate depends on the USB chip used more then it using built in windows drivers.


----------



## _Dejan_

t3sn4f2 said:


> BEHRINGER: UCA202
> 
> Should work in Windows 7 as well since these types of devices use Window's built in USB speaker driver and don't require 3rd party drivers. That will also eliminate any hibernation or standby issues that come along with 3rd party drivers. Don't worry about the low price, digital output quality on all of these USB to S/PDIF converters is excellent.


Hi,
Thanks for answer. Im see this device but by specification is not a lot of better than my onboard sound card...
only 16bit?
32k/44.1k/48k (48k is enought)
10Hz to 22Hz +/- 1dB
THD 0.05%
SN: A/D 89dB, D/A 96dB

My onboard sound card support:
16/20/24-bit 
44.1k/48k/96k/192kHz (48k is enought)
SN: A/D 90dB, D/A 97dB

Do you know for any better device?


----------



## dubbreak

_Dejan_ said:


> Hi,
> Thanks for answer. Im see this device but by specification is not a lot of better than my onboard sound card...
> only 16bit?
> 32k/44.1k/48k (48k is enought)
> 10Hz to 22Hz +/- 1dB
> THD 0.05%
> SN: A/D 89dB, D/A 96dB
> 
> My onboard sound card support:
> 16/20/24-bit
> 44.1k/48k/96k/192kHz (48k is enought)
> SN: A/D 90dB, D/A 97dB
> 
> Do you know for any better device?


maudio transit?


----------



## _Dejan_

dubbreak said:


> maudio transit?


This have better audio specifications. this has been my favorite before Im post question... But Im hoping maybe find some better than this...
Also If need external power(5V) is not problem...


----------



## t3sn4f2

_Dejan_ said:


> Hi,
> Thanks for answer. Im see this device but by specification is not a lot of better than my onboard sound card...
> only 16bit?
> 32k/44.1k/48k (48k is enought)
> 10Hz to 22Hz +/- 1dB
> THD 0.05%
> SN: A/D 89dB, D/A 96dB
> 
> My onboard sound card support:
> 16/20/24-bit
> 44.1k/48k/96k/192kHz (48k is enought)
> SN: A/D 90dB, D/A 97dB
> 
> Do you know for any better device?


Those are analog out specs, digital out is way better (it's nearly perfect in fact if you aren't resampling or using digital volume control, and even if you are it's still better then an excellent analog out). 

Go here to the specifications tap and scroll down to the USB to S/PDIF RMAA test and see how much better the digital out is then even an excellent analog out on that DAC (those results are pretty much the theoretical limits of a 16 bit/ 44KHz file, ie a CD file). Pretty much any device that is functioning as it should will have those excellent reading (including the Berin).

The transit uses third party drivers that m-audio specifically states do not support hibernation or standby.

IM me if you want more inf.

Sorry for the OT CV, though it would be some good info. to post.


----------



## t3sn4f2

One more thing, the spec on the motherboard are more then likely DAC chip numbers and not motherboard output measurement which always way worse and mostly unacceptable as an input or output for anyone that wants very high quality.


----------



## cvjoint

_Dejan_ said:


> -Intel X25M 80GB SSD


Damn...isn't that the SSD to beat from the beginnings? That thing is some real $$s

I'm going all the way with the power supply I placed an order yesterday for two Opus power supplies, a 360w one and 15w one. Together I will have 3.5A available in 12V and 3.5A available in 5V for accessories. 
Here is the design I have in mind, it's a rectangular 10"x5"x5" metal box. It has one 5" intake fan at one end and one exhaust fan at the other. I can get a stronger intake fan to build positive pressure in the PS box. 










I need recommendations for fans. I will be using 2 for the PS case both 5 inches by whatever. I'm guessing these are 12V and will be working of the 12V accessory output on the large PS. 

The computer case design will be the following:










The one exhaust fan on the left will be in the case, it's a 2"x2". There will be three 2.3"x2.3" intake fans on the outside of the case blowing air in through the case perforations I will make. The inside exhaust fan can run off the board plug. The outside intake fans will work off 12v from power supply just like the PS case fans. Recommend me fans that might work better than others. 

Is this all feasible? Comments?


----------



## cvjoint

t3sn4f2 said:


> Sorry for the OT CV, though it would be some good info. to post.


No worries. FWIW I am currently using the Transit with very good results. I do however plan to sell it once I get this bitchin carputer working on its own.


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> Damn...isn't that the SSD to beat from the beginnings? That thing is some real $$s
> 
> I'm going all the way with the power supply I placed an order yesterday for two Opus power supplies, a 360w one and 15w one. Together I will have 3.5A available in 12V and 3.5A available in 5V for accessories.
> Here is the design I have in mind, it's a rectangular 10"x5"x5" metal box. It has one 5" intake fan at one end and one exhaust fan at the other. I can get a stronger intake fan to build positive pressure in the PS box.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I need recommendations for fans. I will be using 2 for the PS case both 5 inches by whatever. I'm guessing these are 12V and will be working of the 12V accessory output on the large PS.
> 
> The computer case design will be the following:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The one exhaust fan on the left will be in the case, it's a 2"x2". There will be three 2.3"x2.3" intake fans on the outside of the case blowing air in through the case perforations I will make. The inside exhaust fan can run off the board plug. The outside intake fans will work off 12v from power supply just like the PS case fans. Recommend me fans that might work better than others.
> 
> Is this all feasible? Comments?


1.)Yes this SSD has cost a lot of $$$ all other parts has not be cheap too... 

2.)Are you shure about: "3.5A available in 12V and 3.5A available in 5V" or you think 35A on 12V?

3.) About FAN positions. AC intake is good idea BUT what on winter? You will using heating in car and it will flow all hot air into PC.
Also if you will have it on front of car then put all FAN's to 7V(use resistors) to reduce noise...

4.) Did you try your Transit device with hibernate/sleep? Can you confirm that have problems?


----------



## cvjoint

_Dejan_ said:


> 1.)Yes this SSD has cost a lot of $$$ all other parts has not be cheap too...
> 
> 2.)Are you shure about: "3.5A available in 12V and 3.5A available in 5V" or you think 35A on 12V?
> 
> 3.) About FAN positions. AC intake is good idea BUT what on winter? You will using heating in car and it will flow all hot air into PC.
> Also if you will have it on front of car then put all FAN's to 7V(use resistors) to reduce noise...
> 
> 4.) Did you try your Transit device with hibernate/sleep? Can you confirm that have problems?


That's what opus says. Make note that's the accessory 12v output and not the main motherboard plug. 

The A/C is dual zone, I have the carputer on bottom feed. I can simply lock those and use upper vents for the A/C. But lol I live in so cal. 

Thanks for the 7v fix that might come in handy. So I can basically vary the voltage to whatever I want on the fans?

I'll try to check the transit for you but it will be 2 weeks or so until I get it back from my friend.


----------



## Megalomaniac

You dont have to route the A/C man, save that for yourself hehe! Just make sure you get air flowing across the heatsink of the computer and youll be fine imho


----------



## cvjoint

Megalomaniac said:


> You dont have to route the A/C man, save that for yourself hehe! Just make sure you get air flowing across the heatsink of the computer and youll be fine imho


It's already done for the amp rack, all I have to do is modify one of the vents to dedicate some for the carputer. Nothing like cold amplifiers in 120 degree heat!


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> The A/C is dual zone, I have the carputer on bottom feed. I can simply lock those and use upper vents for the A/C. But lol I live in so cal.


Im forgot check location  In our country is this harder to make because on winter we have -10°C to -20°C and summer 30°C to 40°C(yesterday 30°C)  



cvjoint said:


> Thanks for the 7v fix that might come in handy. So I can basically vary the voltage to whatever I want on the fans?


Some FAN's start working with 5V andf normaly work with 7V some need 7V to start some need 10V to start... You must try what is best airflow/noise to you...


----------



## t3sn4f2

cvjoint said:


> It's already done for the amp rack, all I have to do is modify one of the vents to dedicate some for the carputer. Nothing like cold amplifiers in 120 degree heat!


Condensation good for letting out the Genie.......


----------



## Megalomaniac

cvjoint said:


> It's already done for the amp rack, all I have to do is modify one of the vents to dedicate some for the carputer. Nothing like cold amplifiers in 120 degree heat!


what about in the winter when the heater is on? Do you just leave heater set for face instead of feet?


----------



## cvjoint

t3sn4f2 said:


> Condensation good for letting out the Genie.......


Whatcha going to do about it? It's outside, you can't help it. When I had Excel magnesium drivers I would be able to see a layer of dew on the copper phase plugs every morning. Such is car audio...



Megalomaniac said:


> what about in the winter when the heater is on? Do you just leave heater set for face instead of feet?


That is correct. How often have I used the heater in 50 degree winters? :laugh:


----------



## cvjoint

Update:
I have been working on customizing the computer case to fit the PCI audio card and to allow for increased cooling.

1. Over 200 extra holes have been drilled in the side of the case to allow for the 3 60mm intake fans located outside the case to blow cool air in.










The exhaust side was left untouched, a single 50mm fan will blow hot air out.










The case was primered.










And finally coated in a metalic silver to match the amplifiers.









The amplfiers are the Clarion DPX series, there will be half a dozen of these guys powering the setup, Robert Zeff design, class GH.










2. The case was not properly designed to accept my PCI card so I had to trim it a bit.


----------



## _Dejan_

just for info why are you drill holes and not cut out holes same as is FAN's dimensions and put some grill in front off it? you will get more air flow... and quieter fans...


----------



## cvjoint

_Dejan_ said:


> just for info why are you drill holes and not cut out holes same as is FAN's dimensions and put some grill in front off it? you will get more air flow... and quieter fans...


For safety I guess, I think there should be plenty air flow this way without jeopardizing the internals of the carputer. I was never a fan of open cases, I always bought sealed amps and such in the mobile environment. I believe this to be a good tradeoff.


----------



## michaelsil1

cvjoint said:


> Whatcha going to do about it? It's outside, you can't help it. When I had Excel magnesium drivers I would be able to see a layer of dew on the copper phase plugs every morning. Such is car audio...
> 
> 
> 
> That is correct. How often have I used the heater in 50 degree winters? :laugh:


We used to have 40 degree F winters before global warming.


----------



## cvjoint

The hard part of the build is over. I got everything to fit in the case last night, turned it on and tested the M-audio card on my home receiver. All good! 

The PCI card does hang a bit too low and there is the risk of shorting on the metal case of the fan. I placed a cardboard insert between the two just to be safe. 

On to cooling:
With one exhaust fan only it works ok unless under 100% load. It fails to cool down under full load in a little over a minute. Luckily with any sort of fan blowing air in it seems to work very well. Of course I haven't been able to seal off the endcap since I'm running a home power supply for testing, with a somewhat sealed case it should create the right effect, not to mention the A/C. 

Will post pics in a few. Tomorrow I start the real deal, Asio and a fully loaded arsenal of audio software. So far only Console seems to cost money, somewhere around $50, the VST plugins are free.


----------



## el_chupo_

ASUSTeK Computer Inc.


----------



## cvjoint

el_chupo_ said:


> ASUSTeK Computer Inc.


That's nice for displaying pictures and things but this carputer has to do a heck of a lot more


----------



## el_chupo_

cvjoint said:


> That's nice for displaying pictures and things but this carputer has to do a heck of a lot more


Honestly, I was at work, and just threw it up to get it out there, didnt even look at specs, other than the main page. 

You are dead on, it is pretty piddly for a carputer for real processing power.

Carry on.


----------



## The Drake

Your using the powermate via usb to control the volume, are you worried about the distortion your gonna get from having digital volume (windows) less than 100%, I ran across this post since I am doing what you are as well:

Physical Volume Control - MP3Car.com

And seen that the powermate isnt as good of an option to control the volume and the JL CL-RLC was recommended.

JL Audio CL-RLC CleanSweep

I might grab two of them, one for the sub, then one for full volume control.


----------



## cvjoint

The Drake said:


> Your using the powermate via usb to control the volume, are you worried about the distortion your gonna get from having digital volume (windows) less than 100%, I ran across this post since I am doing what you are as well:
> 
> Physical Volume Control - MP3Car.com
> 
> And seen that the powermate isnt as good of an option to control the volume and the JL CL-RLC was recommended.
> 
> JL Audio CL-RLC CleanSweep
> 
> I might grab two of them, one for the sub, then one for full volume control.


It seems so bloody hard to maintain signal purity. But sigh...let's keep on trying. I'm with you on this being better technically after reading your linked thread. Do you have any idea how those guys are using one as master volume? I can see how you can adjust 2 channels at a time but say 8, how does that work?


----------



## t3sn4f2

cvjoint said:


> It seems so bloody hard to maintain signal purity. But sigh...let's keep on trying. I'm with you on this being better technically after reading your linked thread. Do you have any idea how those guys are using one as master volume? I can see how you can adjust 2 channels at a time *but say 8, how does that work?*


That would be a big problemo. 

I don't think there is any passive 8 channel master volume control device out there, only the channel AC MVC. The only options I can think of is going with JL HD amps which have a single knob (HD-RLC) that control a master volume circuit for all the amps at once. 

That being said, I would do some more research into digital volume control by an OS. It could be some audiophile mumbo jumbo like XP's kmixer SRC degrading sound quality is . I know some people use Roadrunner's volume control with no issues and that uses Winamp's digital volume control to feed asio and active DSP plugins.


----------



## cvjoint

t3sn4f2 said:


> That would be a big problemo.
> 
> I don't think there is any passive 8 channel master volume control device out there, only the channel AC MVC. The only options I can think of is going with JL HD amps which have a single knob (HD-RLC) that control a master volume circuit for all the amps at once.
> 
> That being said, I would do some more research into digital volume control by an OS. It could be some audiophile mumbo jumbo like XP's kmixer SRC degrading sound quality is . I know some people use Roadrunner's volume control with no issues and that uses Winamp's digital volume control to feed asio and active DSP plugins.


Ha Ha, well here's the thing I would be more worried about the those Class D amplifiers degrading the sound quality than the volume control. I think I need a bit or organization of priorities for using things that degrade the signal. My preliminary list is the following:

1.Speakers that produce less than .5% THD throughout the manufacturer reccomended band. Check!
2. Limit the bandwidth by one octave on the bottom end to prevent overexcursion/overheating. Check!
3. Provide plenty of non Class D power. 3kw available class GH Check!
4. Build boxes large enough to house the speakers. Tweeters with deep chambers, 3L sealed for mids, IB midbass and subs check!
5. Ample processing power to tune out the car interior. Loaded Console last night with VSTs Check!
6. Mount speakers to provide proper imaging. Mids deep in the kicks, tweeters high in pillars, midbasses wide in the doors, subs anywhere Check!
Start being anal about signal degradation:
7. Single DAC conversion. Check!
8. Asio low latency software. Check!
9. Bit perfect. Potential fail seeing how Centrafuse is said to use the kmixer.
10. Volume control from pre-amp. Fail, not willing to use JL HD amps violates more important item no. 3


You guys are encouraged to shoot holes though my project, it's the best way to learn. I will download road runner, winamp, and foobar to try things without Centrafuse to check no. 9 as well. no 10 is a lost cause as I see it right now. I'm really hoping my testing will lead me to the conclusion that doing away with 9. and 10. is not noticeable sound degradation.


----------



## The Drake

The 8 channel is certainly the problem for you and I dont see it feasible to use the CL-RLC since you would need at least 6 of them, lol! For me its pretty easy since I am having Zapco DC amps do all my processing, I can combine everything into one pair of RCA's. 

I think I am going to grab the RLC's from someplace with a good return policy and just try them out myself to see the difference, it makes perfect sense that there would be a difference, but as far as how much and if its noticeable and worth it is the question. Thats $100-$120 I have to drop for these and funds are tight as it is! 

Since I am switching to a carputer as well I just thought I would make your life more complicated and throw more speedbumps in the way for you!


----------



## t3sn4f2

cvjoint said:


> Ha Ha, well here's the thing I would be more worried about the those Class D amplifiers degrading the sound quality than the volume control. I think I need a bit or organization of priorities for using things that degrade the signal. My preliminary list is the following:
> 
> 1.Speakers that produce less than .5% THD throughout the manufacturer reccomended band. Check!
> 2. Limit the bandwidth by one octave on the bottom end to prevent overexcursion/overheating. Check!
> 3. Provide plenty of non Class D power. 3kw available class GH Check!
> 4. Build boxes large enough to house the speakers. Tweeters with deep chambers, 3L sealed for mids, IB midbass and subs check!
> 5. Ample processing power to tune out the car interior. Loaded Console last night with VSTs Check!
> 6. Mount speakers to provide proper imaging. Mids deep in the kicks, tweeters high in pillars, midbasses wide in the doors, subs anywhere Check!
> Start being anal about signal degradation:
> 7. Single DAC conversion. Check!
> 8. Asio low latency software. Check!
> 9. Bit perfect. Potential fail seeing how Centrafuse is said to use the kmixer.
> 10. Volume control from pre-amp. Fail, not willing to use JL HD amps violates more important item no. 3
> 
> 
> You guys are encouraged to shoot holes though my project, it's the best way to learn. I will download road runner, winamp, and foobar to try things without Centrafuse to check no. 9 as well. no 10 is a lost cause as I see it right now. I'm really hoping my testing will lead me to the conclusion that doing away with 9. and 10. is not noticeable sound degradation.


http://www.****g.arrakis.es/measurements/

Something more to scratch your head over .

Notice how the ASIO vs. windows drivers is virtually identical and the re sampled version gets no worse then .01% IMD (and that only happens when playing 2 audio strings at once).

Edit: The link scrambles when I save the post 

replace the * with "****".

Damn it! I can't write that word.

k
i
k
e


----------



## t3sn4f2

The Drake said:


> The 8 channel is certainly the problem for you and I dont see it feasible to use the CL-RLC since you would need at least 6 of them, lol! For me its pretty easy since I am having Zapco DC amps do all my processing, I can combine everything into one pair of RCA's.
> 
> I think I am going to grab the RLC's from someplace with a good return policy and just try them out myself to see the difference, it makes perfect sense that there would be a difference, but as far as how much and if its noticeable and worth it is the question. Thats $100-$120 I have to drop for these and funds are tight as it is!
> 
> Since I am switching to a carputer as well I just thought I would make your life more complicated and throw more speedbumps in the way for you!


The HD RLC is just one knob with a phone cord that you split however many times you need to for each amp and it controls the master volume for all of them from that one knob.


----------



## The Drake

t3sn4f2 said:


> The HD RLC is just one knob with a phone cord that you split however many times you need to for each amp and it controls the master volume for all of them from that one knob.


yeah, I just took a second look at it, so either way he would need at least 4 then, thats $200-$240 he would have to drop on them, still not a feasible option IMO.


----------



## t3sn4f2

The Drake said:


> yeah, I just took a second look at it, so either way he would need at least 4 then, thats $200-$240 he would have to drop on them, still not a feasible option IMO.


I'm assuming you mean in his case that is not going to use HD amps. In that case I'm not sure if the CL-RLC can be used the way that the HD-RLC where more then one can be controlled from one knob.

If it can then it is still a very good option even if it cost that much because if you don't want to do digital volume att. through the PC then you don't have any other options really.


----------



## The Drake

t3sn4f2 said:


> I'm assuming you mean in his case that is not going to use HD amps. In that case I'm not sure if the CL-RLC can be used the way that the HD-RLC where more then one can be controlled from one knob.
> 
> If it can then it is still a very good option even if it cost that much because if you don't want to do digital volume att. through the PC then you don't have any other options really.


yeah I know, which surprises me that there arent any comparable items out there, guess thats why JL can charge so much for them.


----------



## t3sn4f2

The Drake said:


> yeah I know, which surprises me that there arent any comparable items out there, guess thats why JL can charge so much for them.


Not enough of an demand I guess. Maybe Manville can chime in on weather the multiple CL's can be control with on knob (crosses fingers ). If so then the only down side would be the price and the lack of vol display.


----------



## MarkZ

t3sn4f2 said:


> http://www.****g.arrakis.es/measurements/
> 
> Something more to scratch your head over .


I was wondering about this. Thanks for the link!


----------



## cvjoint

The Drake said:


> The 8 channel is certainly the problem for you and I dont see it feasible to use the CL-RLC since you would need at least 6 of them, lol! For me its pretty easy since I am having Zapco DC amps do all my processing, I can combine everything into one pair of RCA's.
> 
> I think I am going to grab the RLC's from someplace with a good return policy and just try them out myself to see the difference, it makes perfect sense that there would be a difference, but as far as how much and if its noticeable and worth it is the question. Thats $100-$120 I have to drop for these and funds are tight as it is!
> 
> Since I am switching to a carputer as well I just thought I would make your life more complicated and throw more speedbumps in the way for you!



I might be able to find a better price for those, but either way it's creating a master volume knob that's challenging. I would guess not having a volume display is not that big of a deal, hopefully the knob has a min and max on it or a stopper, most of these units do. 


t3sn4f2 said:


> http://www.****g.arrakis.es/measurements/
> 
> Something more to scratch your head over .
> 
> Notice how the ASIO vs. windows drivers is virtually identical and the re sampled version gets no worse then .01% IMD (and that only happens when playing 2 audio strings at once).
> 
> Edit: The link scrambles when I save the post
> 
> replace the * with "****".
> 
> Damn it! I can't write that word.
> 
> k
> i
> k
> e


 that is a very nice addition. Thank you.

This volume control problems is different from what I gather right? Hopefully someone will chip in as to the possibility of linking the Jl units, if not I'll send an email.


----------



## t3sn4f2

cvjoint said:


> I might be able to find a better price for those, but either way it's creating a master volume knob that's challenging. I would guess not having a volume display is not that big of a deal, hopefully the knob has a min and max on it or a stopper, most of these units do.
> 
> 
> that is a very nice addition. Thank you.
> 
> This volume control problems is different from what I gather right? Hopefully someone will chip in as to the possibility of linking the Jl units, if not I'll send an email.


Yeah digital attenuation is supposedly more of a concern then XP kmixer sample rate conversion. 

I asked Manville a while back about the knob and he said its like a traditional style pot, min/max with stops at the end, not a continuous scrolling encoder.


----------



## cvjoint

t3sn4f2 said:


> Yeah digital attenuation is supposedly more of a concern then XP kmixer sample rate conversion.
> 
> I asked Manville a while back about the knob and he said its like a traditional style pot, min/max with stops at the end, not a continuous scrolling encoder.


I'm sold on that given your previous link. I changed my ordering accordingly :
1.Speakers that produce less than .5% THD throughout the manufacturer reccomended band. Check!
2. Limit the bandwidth by one octave on the bottom end to prevent overexcursion/overheating. Check!
3. Provide plenty of non Class D power. 3kw available class GH Check!
4. Build boxes large enough to house the speakers. Tweeters with deep chambers, 3L sealed for mids, IB midbass and subs check!
5. Ample processing power to tune out the car interior. Loaded Console last night with VSTs Check!
6. Mount speakers to provide proper imaging. Mids deep in the kicks, tweeters high in pillars, midbasses wide in the doors, subs anywhere Check!
Start being anal about signal degradation:
7. Single DAC conversion. Check!
8. Asio low latency software. Check!
9. Volume control from pre-amp. Not willing to use JL HD amps violates more important item no. 3. Thinking of ways to make this work.
10. Bit perfect. Potential fail seeing how Centrafuse is said to use the kmixer.

I'm happy with this so far! Any other pre-amp all analog volume controllers you guys know about? I like the fact that most of these act as a line driver and bump the voltage. After all I couldn't find out just how many volts the M-audio puts out. 

I would guess the proper install for these would be right after the sound card so that I have high voltage carried on though the RCAs to the amps for better S/N retention rate.


----------



## ehiunno

I am using a 1010LT in my carpc, and once set the gains using an Oscope. You would think that would mean I know the output voltage right? wrong . LOL

The output clipped the input of my preamp, which clipped at 2volts. Then I had to use a homebrew voltage divider, and didn't bother to calculate the actual output once I had divider working. It didn't go up much more after 2V, so I would guess that the actual unclipped output from the 1010LT is somewhere between 2 and 3 volts. I hope that helps a little.

Do a search for analog volume control on DIYaudio. Maybe you can find something over there, the topic has been discussed at length. If you could find a way to daisy chain analog pots together you could do this whole volume control thing for like $15. The only 8 channel analog pot I found was around $300  . There are some other solutions floating around, but DIYaudio doesn't spoonfeed people nearly as much as this place does these days .


----------



## t3sn4f2

ehiunno said:


> I am using a 1010LT in my carpc, and once set the gains using an Oscope. You would think that would mean I know the output voltage right? wrong . LOL
> 
> The output clipped the input of my preamp, which clipped at 2volts. Then I had to use a homebrew voltage divider, and didn't bother to calculate the actual output once I had divider working. It didn't go up much more after 2V, so I would guess that the actual unclipped output from the 1010LT is somewhere between 2 and 3 volts. I hope that helps a little.
> 
> Do a search for analog volume control on DIYaudio. Maybe you can find something over there, the topic has been discussed at length. *If you could find a way to daisy chain analog pots together you could do this whole volume control thing for like $15. The only 8 channel analog pot I found was around $300  .* There are some other solutions floating around, but DIYaudio doesn't spoonfeed people nearly as much as this place does these days .



Wouldn't work really since passive devices such as pots, multi gang stepped attenuators all need to be placed VERY near the next device in order for the capacitance of the cable not to affect the sound (or so all the instructions say). So that means it must go in the trunk and thus can't be used unless it is remote controlled somehow. 

It _could_ be placed away from the amps if you have a buffer in between (ie line driver) to carry the signal the extra length.


----------



## t3sn4f2

cvjoint said:


> I'm sold on that given your previous link. I changed my ordering accordingly :
> 1.Speakers that produce less than .5% THD throughout the manufacturer reccomended band. Check!
> 2. Limit the bandwidth by one octave on the bottom end to prevent overexcursion/overheating. Check!
> 3. Provide plenty of non Class D power. 3kw available class GH Check!
> 4. Build boxes large enough to house the speakers. Tweeters with deep chambers, 3L sealed for mids, IB midbass and subs check!
> 5. Ample processing power to tune out the car interior. Loaded Console last night with VSTs Check!
> 6. Mount speakers to provide proper imaging. Mids deep in the kicks, tweeters high in pillars, midbasses wide in the doors, subs anywhere Check!
> Start being anal about signal degradation:
> 7. Single DAC conversion. Check!
> 8. Asio low latency software. Check!
> 9. Volume control from pre-amp. Not willing to use JL HD amps violates more important item no. 3. Thinking of ways to make this work.
> 10. Bit perfect. Potential fail seeing how Centrafuse is said to use the kmixer.
> 
> I'm happy with this so far! Any other pre-amp all analog volume controllers you guys know about? I like the fact that most of these act as a line driver and bump the voltage. After all I couldn't find out just how many volts the M-audio puts out.
> 
> I would guess the proper install for these would be right after the sound card so that I have high voltage carried on though the RCAs to the amps for better S/N retention rate.


Dunno if you mentioned this already, I forget, but why can't you go with Roadrunner(Winamp)+ASIO and use digital volume control.


----------



## cvjoint

ehiunno said:


> I am using a 1010LT in my carpc, and once set the gains using an Oscope. You would think that would mean I know the output voltage right? wrong . LOL
> 
> The output clipped the input of my preamp, which clipped at 2volts. Then I had to use a homebrew voltage divider, and didn't bother to calculate the actual output once I had divider working. It didn't go up much more after 2V, so I would guess that the actual unclipped output from the 1010LT is somewhere between 2 and 3 volts. I hope that helps a little.
> 
> Do a search for analog volume control on DIYaudio. Maybe you can find something over there, the topic has been discussed at length. If you could find a way to daisy chain analog pots together you could do this whole volume control thing for like $15. The only 8 channel analog pot I found was around $300  . There are some other solutions floating around, but DIYaudio doesn't spoonfeed people nearly as much as this place does these days .


Oh, 2V that's nice considering most 4V car audio sources rarely bench more than 1.5v. 

I do like the DIYMA spoonfeeding going on here, can't lie.  I do search on diy, but not all are that enthused about ASIO and all, most go for the common GPS and video play. I didn't want to liter that place with new threads from a newb. 



t3sn4f2 said:


> Dunno if you mentioned this already, I forget, but why can't you go with Roadrunner(Winamp)+ASIO and use digital volume control.


I heard RR is a bit harder to setup. Centrafuse is nice in that they tell you exactly what GPS and Btooth dongle to get, plus I bought it already. If I get RR to work right I wouldn't mind ditching Centrafuse if it's not as good.


----------



## MarkZ

t3sn4f2 said:


> Wouldn't work really since passive devices such as pots, multi gang stepped attenuators all need to be placed VERY near the next device in order for the capacitance of the cable not to affect the sound (or so all the instructions say). So that means it must go in the trunk and thus can't be used unless it is remote controlled somehow.
> 
> It _could_ be placed away from the amps if you have a buffer in between (ie line driver) to carry the signal the extra length.


Sounds like more of that mumbo jumbo to me.  The capacitance is going to be relatively small for such a high impedance circuit. I'd be more worried about picking up noise.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Well there you go.......if the JL or digital attenuation doesn't work out then

http://dact.com/assets/images/Attenuator-family.jpg

Take your pick. Should fit nicely behind the display where the head unit usually goes. 

It's going to be a twice long cable run, unless you opt for a USB or firewire card option.


----------



## ehiunno

Yeah, look up the price of the CT2 pots and tell him its still a good idea 

Those are what I was referring to earlier.


----------



## t3sn4f2

ehiunno said:


> Yeah, look up the price of the CT2 pots and tell him its still a good idea
> 
> Those are what I was referring to earlier.


Yup, it's up there. Goldpoint has some a little cheaper as well.


----------



## cvjoint

Yeah, those things are very expensive. While I'm not afraid to DIY I would rather not DIY every little knob or this project will never take off 

Luckily one of the members jumped in and I got a good deal on the Audio Control MVC. I'm linking two toghether to get one master volume. I'm getting good info and deals everywhere on this project, thanks guys!

The best pics I could find for this thing:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/49102-sale-audiocontrol-master-volume-control-mvc-salmon-grey-pristine-w-pics.html


----------



## t3sn4f2

cvjoint said:


> Yeah, those things are very expensive. While I'm not afraid to DIY I would rather not DIY every little knob or this project will never take off
> 
> Luckily one of the members jumped in and I got a good deal on the Audio Control MVC. I'm linking two toghether to get one master volume. I'm getting good info and deals everywhere on this project, thanks guys!
> 
> The best pics I could find for this thing:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/49102-sale-audiocontrol-master-volume-control-mvc-salmon-grey-pristine-w-pics.html


YOU CAN LINK THEM?!  Now _that's_ awesome!


----------



## cvjoint

So now the question is to buy or not to buy the Electriq?

Here's a comparison between the free version and the pay:
AiXcoustic Creations: -->Comparison

While I do like the 72db slopes and the built in xovers that wouldn't be sufficient for me to shell out 100euros. It's the quality of filters that interests me, are FIR filters as good as they look?


----------



## cvjoint

It's alive! All the main carputer builing blocks have been fused toghether. That is: Both Winamp and my front end Centrafuse were configured to output sound though the M-audio sound card, Windows has been configured to route signals to the card as well, the card itself has gone though some internal routing to properly funnel the audio signals, finally in Console Asio was selected and a chain of filters has been configured. It's all sounding mighty delicious through my HT setup, I'm controling volume though the receiver's pre-amp just like I will in the car with the Audio control units.

I used the following walk through: Setting up your carpc using the M-Audio 1010LT - MP3Car.com
It was nice in that I'm using the same M-audio card and Console to hold my VSTs. It wasn't easy because my M-audio screens have been updated a bit and I had to troubleshoot no sound scenario for the better part of the day. 

Here's my walkthrough, please let me know which of these volume mixers I can use and which ones I can't use to get better sound quality:

In control panel:








I'm guessing the volume control on the left is the one I have to keep pegged to 100%. What about the other two? 

In M-audio's settings:








Note all outputs 1-8 are working even though they are on mute = internal routing. 









Here you can see the audio signal coming in through the S/PDIF. I have lots of analog inputs still available. I'm a bit concerned about the volume of either Winamp or Centrafuse coming in too loud. It hits the red very often although I can't tell whether it's distorting or not. Should I be worried? I don't want to clip the input. 










The signal can come though one of these two sources (for now) on the carputer:
Winamp:








This is supposed to be bypassing Kmixer and all. Winamp has the best visualisations, otherwise it's just a player.

Centrafuse:








This is the front end I bought to fuse all carputer functions toghether. This coordinates btooth phone, GPS, Wi Fi, audio/video player etc. It's nice because in a car environment I can't fiddle with the 7 inch screen with the pen and rather I will use my fat fingers. It doesn't have as nice of visualisations as Winamp but people are working on making them compatible. Hopefully on the next update they make dedicated forward, rewind buttons. 









Here you can see I made it work though the M-audio card. I'm all ears as to whether this is 100% kosher, it seems like it's the same setup as the Winamp. I can't tell a sound difference between the two. Is this bit perfect?









These are the same volume buttons as found in the windows control panel, I'm guessing these should be 100% all the time. 

Continuing on to the brain of the operation, Console plus VSTs!


----------



## ErinH

I need to unsubscribe from this thread. For real.


----------



## cvjoint

Console configuration screen:








Audio signals are coming in though the Mixer and coming out on all 8 analog outputs. In Console, using VSTs the sound will be manipulated to accommodate the car environment.

A basic setup for now:








This is a basic stereo L, R. I only have the free version of Electri-q hooked up. 
Here volume control seemed crucial. Whenever the output gets in the red zone there is noticeable distortion, I believe here the audio card outputs are clipping. Every move made in the VST changes the output behavior though the outputs. If the EQ is used at +15db to induce a peak it easily clips the output even when set at less than 50% like you see it here. I will as usual EQ only down, so from 0 to -15db. Now comes the money question, is this a Kosher volume control? I would rather not have this one set at 100% since it is the only one that does distort if on red. 

On to the fun stuff, first VST open!








You can start at 8 bands, then...you can add as many more as you want...up to 64!!! The interface is a million times better than any other EQ/Xover interface I've seen, I can just pick up my pen and mutilate the FR anyway I want. Possibilities are endless!









Example of a curve. Xover menu open, so many options, heck did you know Chebychev had a filter? LOL I study some of his wisdom in my statistics classes but car audio? 









This is off course a parametric EQ, pick 64 points anywhere on the FR, mutilated back in fourth +-15db, and look at that Q adjustment! It's so strong I was able to bring down the whole FR 12db just with one frequency point adjustment!









This is my last tease for the day. The FR can be partitioned into several categories, I chose the common, bass, midrange etc here.

Now that is the FREE Electri-q, I'm debating whether to buy the 100euro version. That will come with phase reducing filters, up to 72db slopes and more! Yey or nay?

I think I am well on my way of defeating the Bit One/DSP6, this is already an 8 channel processor like the Bit One but features the much more flexible parametric the Zapco has...6 times the number of bands, with far more SQ retaining possibilities!


----------



## ErinH

dude, stop posting this stuff.

No lie, you're making me want to do this now.


----------



## cvjoint

bikinpunk said:


> dude, stop posting this stuff.
> 
> No lie, you're making me want to do this now.


 Guilty as charged, but you know what I haven't found something this revolutionary in Car Audio since I discovered this site and started using handbuilt Scandinavian bastards! 

Heck down the road you can even decide to buy a software package that does what the Audissey does x10 the features, there's also a chunk of internet property littered with ambisonics information.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Any word on the working boot up time yet?


----------



## cvjoint

t3sn4f2 said:


> Any word on the working boot up time yet?


It boots up in 60 seconds with all the gear in the startup. I have to figure out how to make Centrafuse and Console turn on automatically at boot up too. It was 25sec with XP pro and no other programs. To me it's not that big of a deal, I am turning on the remote stat feature on the car alarm soon, my motor has to warm up too. I really didn't clean anything so it loads up the network drivers tries to connect etc.


----------



## Ianaconi

The only thing that puts me off is the boot time.

If we could have all that with 10-20 seconds boot time, that would be awesome.

So basically you are going from the MAudio soundcard to the amps?


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> It boots up in 60 seconds with all the gear in the startup. I have to figure out how to make Centrafuse and Console turn on automatically at boot up too. It was 25sec with XP pro and no other programs. To me it's not that big of a deal, I am turning on the remote stat feature on the car alarm soon, my motor has to warm up too. I really didn't clean anything so it loads up the network drivers tries to connect etc.


Copy both shortcuts into Start->Programs->Startup and that's all


----------



## t3sn4f2

cvjoint said:


> It boots up in 60 seconds with all the gear in the startup. I have to figure out how to make Centrafuse and Console turn on automatically at boot up too. It was 25sec with XP pro and no other programs. To me it's not that big of a deal,* I am turning on the remote stat feature on the car alarm soon, my motor has to warm up too.* I really didn't clean anything so it loads up the network drivers tries to connect etc.


That should make a huge difference. I timed it the other day and it takes 20 sec or more from the time you can activate a remote device to the time you get settled in, put the car in gear, and start to drive off.


----------



## _Dejan_

Ianaconi said:


> The only thing that puts me off is the boot time.
> 
> If we could have all that with 10-20 seconds boot time, that would be awesome.
> 
> So basically you are going from the MAudio soundcard to the amps?


Fast SSD + motherboard with fast BIOS + Win XPe but here is Price > 1000$ 

Look this LINK
This is my old CarPC with old SSD and motherboard with 1.5GHz VIA CPU. Also you must know that for Turn off timer is set to 5 sec. Turn ON I think is 1sec. You can see that on this PC is problem BIOS which need more than 10sec to POST and start BOOT-ing...

P.S. Which DVD player can you play Video in 10-20sec? On My Video Im play Demo Video(cca. 200MB)


----------



## MarkZ

Yeah, dump the wireless. Load it up on the (relatively few) occasions where you need to do file transfers.

Mine boots in about 20 sec. Which is fine for me, because I don't listen to music near where I park anyway. I never really understood the fascination with ultra-short boot times. It would be nice, I guess, but not a big deal.


----------



## cvjoint

Ianaconi said:


> The only thing that puts me off is the boot time.
> 
> If we could have all that with 10-20 seconds boot time, that would be awesome.
> 
> So basically you are going from the MAudio soundcard to the amps?


I'm sure I can cut it down another 10-20 secs but not more. 

I'm going to use two Audio Control MVCs to control volume and that will also bump the voltage to 5v. but yeah, that would be about it.



_Dejan_ said:


> Copy both shortcuts into Start->Programs->Startup and that's all


Done! However, console doesn't know to 'play', I have to go onto the its screen and press power  Centrafuse remembers the song and restarts at the same place so it takes seconds!


----------



## MarkZ

If you use audiomulch instead of console, it'll fix your problem. There's a command line option to autoload and autostart.


----------



## cvjoint

t3sn4f2 said:


> That should make a huge difference. I timed it the other day and it takes 20 sec or more from the time you can activate a remote device to the time you get settled in, put the car in gear, and start to drive off.


My Viper alarm has a qt. mile range. I'll turn it on when I exit the door. It takes me a minute to get to my car and buckle in. Besides I can't get in Vtec unless the motor is warm 



MarkZ said:


> Yeah, dump the wireless. Load it up on the (relatively few) occasions where you need to do file transfers.
> 
> Mine boots in about 20 sec. Which is fine for me, because I don't listen to music near where I park anyway. I never really understood the fascination with ultra-short boot times. It would be nice, I guess, but not a big deal.


I also have a music disc in the drive which slows down things a bit, the hub is loaded, powermate knob is in the startup too.


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> Done! However, console doesn't know to 'play', I have to go onto the its screen and press power  Centrafuse remembers the song and restarts at the same place so it takes seconds!


Check in manual if is avalible any parameter for autostart...


----------



## cvjoint

MarkZ said:


> If you use audiomulch instead of console, it'll fix your problem. There's a command line option to autoload and autostart.


Aww...already forked out the $50 for this one. 



_Dejan_ said:


> Check in manual if is avalible any parameter for autostart...


The Help menu has nothing. I'll check the manual.

I jacked this from a post by Iceman on MP3 car:

'Do you find Audiomulch uses more or less resources than console?
I currently use console and am pretty happy with it - but Id rather use whatever is BEST.

IIRC, the way I open console and hide the .BAT file is to:
1. Create a shortcut (.lnk) to audiomulch with all your arguements included on 1 line.
[ie: "C:\A_Applications\_A_Multimedia\AudioMulch 1.0\Mulch.exe" /a "C:\A_Applications\_A_Multimedia\Audio Applications\Plugins\4.1_EQ+Delay.amh"]
2. Go to the properties of your shortcut and set it to run MINIMIZED.
3. Create your .BAT to run the shortcut (eg: "c:\runmulch.lnk")'

Does that look like it would do the trick, or is that what we just did?


----------



## MarkZ

That works for audiomulch only because it takes the "/a" command line option.

You should be able to run any program minimized on start though. Right click it and go to properties.

BTW, I've used both console and audiomulch and didn't find one to use more resources than the other.


----------



## cvjoint

MarkZ said:


> That works for audiomulch only because it takes the "/a" command line option.
> 
> You should be able to run any program minimized on start though. Right click it and go to properties.
> 
> BTW, I've used both console and audiomulch and didn't find one to use more resources than the other.


Gotcha. Maybe I'll send an email to Console CS to see if they plan to upgrade the startup features. 

Let me guess audiomulch uses fewer resources.


----------



## cvjoint

So I took the CD out of the optical drive to check how much it's slowing down boot times. It turns out a cd being in the drive slows down the boot time by 50%!

Current boot time is 32 secs. I won't be using cd's much at all so that 30 second lag at startup can be avoided if needed. I still need to clean up XP. Under 30 second boot up times are now easily achievable.


----------



## The Drake

Not bad boot up time man, is that from hibernate or just a cold boot? 

I am probably just going to do standby with my netbook, as of now with standby it takes shorter to startup than the W505 does to start! And last I checked with a 6-cell battery I can go a good week before needing to recharge on standby.


----------



## cvjoint

The Drake said:


> Not bad boot up time man, is that from hibernate or just a cold boot?
> 
> I am probably just going to do standby with my netbook, as of now with standby it takes shorter to startup than the W505 does to start! And last I checked with a 6-cell battery I can go a good week before needing to recharge on standby.


That's getting it back up from a full shut down up to music playing. It's as fast as my Alpine without Btooth hooked up, with btooth that thing took over a minute to get going.


----------



## t3sn4f2

cvjoint said:


> That's getting it back up from a full shut down up to music playing. It's as fast as my Alpine without Btooth hooked up, with btooth that thing took over a minute to get going.


Which Alpine? Do you still have it? Wanna do the community a favor and show the first ever RMAA on a headunit's source_s_?  You certainly have the input stage to do it now. 

Come onnnnnn, "you can do iiiiii". Just one run per source at the highest input level your sound card will take.


----------



## cvjoint

t3sn4f2 said:


> Which Alpine? Do you still have it? Wanna do the community a favor and show the first ever RMAA on a headunit's source_s_?  You certainly have the input stage to do it now.
> 
> Come onnnnnn, "you can do iiiiii". Just one run per source at the highest input level your sound card will take.


I wish  I sold that not to long ago along with the processor. I didn't know this opportunity would come along.

Do you guys think I can get someone to code that power button at startup? Can software engineers do this kind of stuff?


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> I wish  I sold that not to long ago along with the processor. I didn't know this opportunity would come along.
> 
> Do you guys think I can get someone to code that power button at startup? Can software engineers do this kind of stuff?


Hi,
Do you think auto click on play button?
I think is possible!!! Long time ago Im write application which are look for specific window and look for two edit box insert login username and password and login... So I think I can do this... Is this application free? Is maybe possible get demo and test it without ASIO card? If not conntact me by PM and I will tomorrow send you one application and instructions...

Regards, _Dejan_


----------



## cvjoint

_Dejan_ said:


> Hi,
> Do you think auto click on play button?
> I think is possible!!! Long time ago Im write application which are look for specific window and look for two edit box insert login username and password and login... So I think I can do this... Is this application free? Is maybe possible get demo and test it without ASIO card? If not conntact me by PM and I will tomorrow send you one application and instructions...
> 
> Regards, _Dejan_


oh sweet 

There is a free demo version, the only difference is you can't save on the demo version. here's the link:

console : Download DEMO version
You don't need Asio to play around with it. Let me know if you make any progress! :rockon:
Here's the button I need to turn on at startup.


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> oh sweet
> 
> There is a free demo version, the only difference is you can't save on the demo version. here's the link:
> 
> console : Download DEMO version
> You don't need Asio to play around with it. Let me know if you make any progress! :rockon:
> Here's the button I need to turn on at startup.


Hi,

If I undertand you you must press only POWER Button? OR you must press play too?
For power button I have solution  and WORK. App. auto start console and simulate pressing F3 button. I will add option to start console minimised. Is this good enougt?


----------



## cvjoint

_Dejan_ said:


> Hi,
> 
> If I undertand you you must press only POWER Button? OR you must press play too?
> For power button I have solution  and WORK. App. auto start console and simulate pressing F3 button. I will add option to start console minimised. Is this good enougt?


Power button is all that's needed! I'm not sure what play does yet.

Yes! All sounds very good. Give me some really simple instructions on how to make it all work, like you would to a 5 year old 

I now see what you mean...F3 activates the power button...brilliant! You are going to simulate this so I don't have to do it manually correct? Minimized is better too.


----------



## cvjoint

Meanwhile I did some search on FIR filters vs. the common IIR filters:
1.6.1 What are the advantages of FIR Filters (compared to IIR filters)?

Compared to IIR filters, FIR filters offer the following advantages:

* They can easily be designed to be "linear phase" (and usually are). Put simply, linear-phase filters delay the input signal, but don’t distort its phase.
* They are simple to implement. On most DSP microprocessors, the FIR calculation can be done by looping a single instruction.
* They are suited to multi-rate applications. By multi-rate, we mean either "decimation" (reducing the sampling rate), "interpolation" (increasing the sampling rate), or both. Whether decimating or interpolating, the use of FIR filters allows some of the calculations to be omitted, thus providing an important computational efficiency. In contrast, if IIR filters are used, each output must be individually calculated, even if it that output will discarded (so the feedback will be incorporated into the filter).
* They have desireable numeric properties. In practice, all DSP filters must be implemented using "finite-precision" arithmetic, that is, a limited number of bits. The use of finite-precision arithmetic in IIR filters can cause significant problems due to the use of feedback, but FIR filters have no feedback, so they can usually be implemented using fewer bits, and the designer has fewer practical problems to solve related to non-ideal arithmetic.
* They can be implemented using fractional arithmetic. Unlike IIR filters, it is always possible to implement a FIR filter using coefficients with magnitude of less than 1.0. (The overall gain of the FIR filter can be adjusted at its output, if desired.) This is an important considertaion when using fixed-point DSP's, because it makes the implementation much simpler.

1.6.2 What are the disadvantages of FIR Filters (compared to IIR filters)?

Compared to IIR filters, FIR filters sometimes have the disadvantage that they require more memory and/or calculation to achieve a given filter response characteristic. Also, certain responses are not practical to implement with FIR filters.

For more info go here:
FIR Filter FAQ

Right now the FIR min on the pay version of Electri-q looks like the winner crossover/EQ. In the FIR menu one can access Buggpass filters for the crossover, forget 72db slopes these things are the mythical block filters. Demo coming soon!


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> Power button is all that's needed! I'm not sure what play does yet.
> 
> Yes! All sounds very good. Give me some really simple instructions on how to make it all work, like you would to a 5 year old
> 
> I now see what you mean...F3 activates the power button...brilliant! You are going to simulate this so I don't have to do it manually correct? Minimized is better too.


Im make application which start console in normal mode Press Power button and minimize console. Im try simulate pressinf button when application is minimized but for some reason doesn't accept command... So If this is ok then send me PM with your email where I can send test application with instructions to make few tests. If will work ok I will post it here...

regards, _Dejan_


----------



## cvjoint

_Dejan_ said:


> Im make application which start console in normal mode Press Power button and minimize console. Im try simulate pressinf button when application is minimized but for some reason doesn't accept command... So If this is ok then send me PM with your email where I can send test application with instructions to make few tests. If will work ok I will post it here...
> 
> regards, _Dejan_


You got email!


----------



## cvjoint

Electri-q love

Here's the manual, all sorts of good information. 

http://www.aixcoustic.com/uploads/media/Manual.pdf

Here are a few snapshots with my favorite filters so far.
The FIR-min mode:









In this mode the following filters are available. Butterworth is only available in 24db for obvious reasons,worthy mention for the Bugpass:









Brick filter anyone:









In digital mode a variety of Butterworth filters:









According to the manual the analog mode is for those who like even order distortion of these type of filters, a ridiculous amount of filters are available in this mode for those who like 'warm', 'fuzzy', even 'yummy' filters. Any tube lovers in here :









From what I've researched so far the FIR-min mode coupled with the Bugpass is a lethal combination. Any EQ. or crossover setting becomes delay and phase distortion free, and the steep filters allow a much broader frequency response from any speaker. 

My second and only feature that I need satisfied is done though the Voxengo Sound Delay VST:








The dimension can be changed to feet if preferred so extraneous speed of sound calculations need not be made.


----------



## cvjoint

_Dejan_ said:


> Im make application which start console in normal mode Press Power button and minimize console. Im try simulate pressinf button when application is minimized but for some reason doesn't accept command... So If this is ok then send me PM with your email where I can send test application with instructions to make few tests. If will work ok I will post it here...
> 
> regards, _Dejan_


I hope you realize you're an f&^*ing genius!!!! I followed all your instructions and then placed your file in the startup folder and lo and behold it worked flawlessly!


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> I hope you realize you're an f&^*ing genius!!!! I followed all your instructions and then placed your file in the startup folder and lo and behold it worked flawlessly!


Great to hear that all works ok  When I will finish my project I will need this appplication too


----------



## newtitan

_Dejan_ said:


> Im make application which start console in normal mode Press Power button and minimize console. Im try simulate pressinf button when application is minimized but for some reason doesn't accept command... So If this is ok then send me PM with your email where I can send test application with instructions to make few tests. If will work ok I will post it here...
> 
> regards, _Dejan_



any chance you could make this same function for audiomulch? I dont have console unfortunately


----------



## yermolovd

cvjoint,
durwood mentioned that he saves the config file from console in the power on mode and adds a shortcut to auto start that config file. that's how you get the console to initialize with your config and powered on. plus you can modify shortcut to the config to have minimized option.

i tried it today.


----------



## cvjoint

newtitan said:


> any chance you could make this same function for audiomulch? I dont have console unfortunately


Apparently audiomulch does this already. 



yermolovd said:


> cvjoint,
> durwood mentioned that he saves the config file from console in the power on mode and adds a shortcut to auto start that config file. that's how you get the console to initialize with your config and powered on. plus you can modify shortcut to the config to have minimized option.
> 
> i tried it today.


_Dejan_ already busted out another method that works. I'm not going to mess with it since it works but I'll keep this in mind for the future. 

It's nice to know Console can be auto powered on. For a little while there I was a little worried I made the wrong investment.


----------



## cvjoint

Install update:
On the work bench: all wires 20ft in lenght, CPU all in one piece running off of 120v for now.









A close up of the custom PCI audio card install:
As stated before fitment issues were rampant. The endcap was machined slightly to fit the M-Audio card. Longer nylon threaded safety screw installed. Analog outputs on the case taken out and whole filled up with plastic caps. The M-Audio gives me all of the RCA outs I need and the built in sound card is not active.










Dual Screen is a go!
Just got in the 706 Series Xenarc screen, this one is DVI-D compatible so I can use the onboard video card to get dual screen. Touchscreen works on both screens. The cursor basically moves on the screen you touch and controls whatever you do on that monitor. I don't know if this feature is available with other screens since the Xenarc has its own dual screen control center. 










The second screen is customized to run Hondata engine management. Basically all the on board Honda sensors as well as my additional Wideband sensor are displayed. Choices are numerous, from digital meters, to bar graphs to analog type. The point: most accurate sensors at the touch of your fingertip for monitoring engine functions as well as engine tuning, code clearing, you name it. I managed to get to automatically maximize on the second screen at boot on which was a pain. 










The main screen has been optimized:
Note the Bluetooth displays cellphone battery state as well as coverage bars. Only the most important functions were picked for the primary screen.










GPS
Seems decent enough, can't fully test out until I get it in the car.









Music Screen
On the left selections for Optical drive, USB or SSD. Out of the 8 RCA inputs on the M-Audio card I will only be able to use 6 of them. I played with it all day to make my ECM 8000 mic run using the built in pre-amp. Needless to say it's too weak. Therefore inputs 1,2 are not usable. Inputs 3,4 now support my mic with the help of a pre-amp. I then have 4 additional inputs I can use for whatever. It seems that they all play concomitantly, meaning if one input is used it will play over whatever you are listening to so you must pause playback. I'm not sure whether that is a benefit or drawback yet. 


















And finally a short break to discuss what I can tell so far about sound quality. It's amazing, the output even if RCA driven is much louder than my optical feed into my home audio receiver from my laptop! That's unthinkable to me, I always though a fiber optic run straight from the harddrive into the receiver's DSP would be unbeatable...not so. The pre-amp voltage, whatever it is, there is plenty of juice. Background noise is not existent, this may very well be because my home audio drivers use good passive networks. We'll see active in the car. Dynamics wise, again amazing, without any sort of EQ. there is wholesome bass and crisp highs, it sounds very natural!

To come: 
Some of the first stumbling blocks: Blutooth functionality - a pain and Power Mate knob gets fuzzy.

First in car install effort


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> Dual Screen is a go!
> Just got in the 706 Series Xenarc screen, this one is DVI-D compatible so I can use the onboard video card to get dual screen. Touchscreen works on both screens. The cursor basically moves on the screen you touch and controls whatever you do on that monitor. I don't know if this feature is available with other screens since the Xenarc has its own dual screen control center.


Yes this have all TS but you must enable multiscreen support when you install drivers. If I remember it support 8 TS monitors...



cvjoint said:


> The second screen is customized to run Hondata engine management. Basically all the on board Honda sensors as well as my additional Wideband sensor are displayed. Choices are numerous, from digital meters, to bar graphs to analog type. The point: most accurate sensors at the touch of your fingertip for monitoring engine functions as well as engine tuning, code clearing, you name it. I managed to get to automatically maximize on the second screen at boot on which was a pain.


Great. What hardware do you use? OBDII or CAN? I working on custom plugin for gauges and all other data(lights status, doors status, steering wheels controls, BoardComputer data) which I get forom CAN bus...

If I understand you you have problems when you boot PC this app not start maximized? I can fix this for you  Im do something that(Move specific DVR application to other screen and change size)...


----------



## cvjoint

_Dejan_ said:


> Yes this have all TS but you must enable multiscreen support when you install drivers. If I remember it support 8 TS monitors...
> 
> 
> 
> Great. What hardware do you use? OBDII or CAN? I working on custom plugin for gauges and all other data(lights status, doors status, steering wheels controls, BoardComputer data) which I get forom CAN bus...
> 
> If I understand you you have problems when you boot PC this app not start maximized? I can fix this for you  Im do something that(Move specific DVR application to other screen and change size)...


I'm using Hondata which is NOT universal like the OBDII scanner. It's like Disneyland for car tunning, it monitors AND controls any function of the car. A chip is mounted inside a Honda ECU in order to manipulate all its functions and add more such as launch control, NOS (haha), turbo boost, wideband sensors etc. Comparable Universal units are AEM EMS, Motec etc. You need one of these if you ever tune your vehicle on the dyno. 

So far I've noticed that Windows "learns". I dragged and maximized the Hondata screen on the second monitor and eventually it learned to automatically start it up maximized on the second screen. Of course I put it in the start up menu and selected the maximized function but initially it would only maximize on the main screen, now it's fine. I would still need it to connect once started up. I'm not sure we can play with this one Dejan, the problem is that if the engine is not on it won't turn on no matter what you press. The button would be the flash looking one. Maybe I can get a copy of Hondata to you. 

I got the my activation code for the software but it doesn't work  I'll email the guys again tomorrow and try to get one for you. First you need to install Electri-Q on your computer so I can get the program serial anyway. Let me know when you get that far.


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> I'm using Hondata which is NOT universal like the OBDII scanner. It's like Disneyland for car tunning, it monitors AND controls any function of the car. A chip is mounted inside a Honda ECU in order to manipulate all its functions and add more such as launch control, NOS (haha), turbo boost, wideband sensors etc. Comparable Universal units are AEM EMS, Motec etc. You need one of these if you ever tune your vehicle on the dyno.


Hi,
I understand how this things work  Im tune my car(from 115HP to 163HP and from 280Nm to 374Nm) without aditional chip only OBD programming 



cvjoint said:


> So far I've noticed that Windows "learns". I dragged and maximized the Hondata screen on the second monitor and eventually it learned to automatically start it up maximized on the second screen. Of course I put it in the start up menu and selected the maximized function but initially it would only maximize on the main screen, now it's fine. I would still need it to connect once started up. I'm not sure we can play with this one Dejan, the problem is that if the engine is not on it won't turn on no matter what you press. The button would be the flash looking one. Maybe I can get a copy of Hondata to you.


Everything is possible  Is possible download demo of this application? If Im understand you if car is OFF:
-If you press button to connect then some indicator start flashing?
-What happen if you then turn ON ignition/car? You must again press this button?
-Do you have any color or any other diference when car is OFF/ON?

If demo is not avalible I can send you one application which show you some numbers and text's which I need to write application... This we will discuss by email... Contact me by email...



cvjoint said:


> I got the my activation code for the software but it doesn't work  I'll email the guys again tomorrow and try to get one for you. First you need to install Electri-Q on your computer so I can get the program serial anyway. Let me know when you get that far.


Yesterday Im receive my new motherboard and other stuff  I waiting that I receive one "good" sound card which Im buy from USA because I can't get it in europe  When I will have all tested and ready to use I will contact you by email...


----------



## cvjoint

I got to trying out the hybernation mode tonight. I'm not sure why others couldn't get this to work before. I can hybernate and the Console comes back totally fine from it. 

Final list of boot up times:

Complete shut down
30 seconds till music, 
+ 5 seconds till bluetooth connects 
+ 30 seconds if CD in drive

Hybernation
*15 seconds with or without cd in the drive until music*
+1 second for bluetooth to connect

For all practical purposes this is a 16 second startup for 100% functionality.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Have you seen the new Centrafuse 3 preview on youboob. Looks WAYYYYY nicer (ie modern) compared to the current one. Not sure I like the layout and funtionality though.


----------



## cvjoint

t3sn4f2 said:


> Have you seen the new Centrafuse 3 preview on youboob. Looks WAYYYYY nicer (ie modern) compared to the current one. Not sure I like the layout and funtionality though.


Ohh nice! I'm particularly thrilled to see that scroll bar for the track, especially since the fast forward, rewind functions plain suck on the current one. No cellphone coverage and battery info?


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> Ohh nice! I'm particularly thrilled to see that scroll bar for the track, especially since the fast forward, rewind functions plain suck on the current one. No cellphone coverage and battery info?


Maybe they have disabled phone function when are make this video...


----------



## 01eclipse

wow, i don't know how i missed this thread...

dejan, any luck finding soundcard?

edit: i had stopped reading at about page 3 and missed alot of the good stuff!

for anyone else deciding to do a similar project , www.kvraudio.com has a huge database of free vst plugins, and a couple free vst hosts(though i went straight to console, so i can't comment on how they work).

I am also using console, but have decided to go the usb sound card route and am using a ESI GigaportHD.

the biggest issue that i have seen is the way that asio is understood to control the audio.

look at ASIO and vsthosts/plugins as a secondary audio processor, not as part of the computer-- and the audio must be routed to it, like any other external audio processor. this reasoning helped me undersand how the audio needs to be routed in the computer to get console to work(one of my biggest stumbling blocks). 

once you have console setup, the ideas are only limited by your needs, and processing power. 
look up Aqualizer--a 31band _parametric_ eq, and LSfilter(a crossover, test tone program)http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/gen...26293-tried-ls-filter-vst-crossover-nice.html, just those 2 will blow the bitone away.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

These are great updates CV. I'm pretty excited to see this come along so far and I'm glad the hardware seems to be doing everything you needed ...barring the 6 vs 8 input deal.

Anyways...keep the updates coming!


----------



## cvjoint

01eclipse said:


> wow, i don't know how i missed this thread...
> 
> dejan, any luck finding soundcard?
> 
> edit: i had stopped reading at about page 3 and missed alot of the good stuff!
> 
> for anyone else deciding to do a similar project , KVR: Virtual Instruments, Virtual Effects, VST Plugins, Audio Units (AU), DirectX (DX), Universal Binary Compatibility - Audio Plugin News, Reviews and Community has a huge database of free vst plugins, and a couple free vst hosts(though i went straight to console, so i can't comment on how they work).
> 
> I am also using console, but have decided to go the usb sound card route and am using a ESI GigaportHD.
> 
> the biggest issue that i have seen is the way that asio is understood to control the audio.
> 
> look at ASIO and vsthosts/plugins as a secondary audio processor, not as part of the computer-- and the audio must be routed to it, like any other external audio processor. this reasoning helped me undersand how the audio needs to be routed in the computer to get console to work(one of my biggest stumbling blocks).
> 
> once you have console setup, the ideas are only limited by your needs, and processing power.
> look up Aqualizer--a 31band _parametric_ eq, and LSfilter(a crossover, test tone program)Tried LS-Filter VST crossover...nice! - MP3Car.com, just those 2 will blow the bitone away.


I went with Centrafuse, Console, Electri-q, and Voxengo Audio Delay. For a free EQ. I would recommend the free version of Electri-q, that's a 64 band parametric with lots and lots of goodies and built in xovers.


----------



## cvjoint

I800C0LLECT said:


> These are great updates CV. I'm pretty excited to see this come along so far and I'm glad the hardware seems to be doing everything you needed ...barring the 6 vs 8 input deal.
> 
> Anyways...keep the updates coming!


Will do will do. Bluetooth update coming as soon as I find some time.

I just realized the other day Centrafuse does not play DVDs unless some video playback software. That's a bit upseting considering I payed money for it. Any good free video playback gear?

It also froze when I tried to make it play an AAC file  AAC software needed?


----------



## I800C0LLECT

AAC = Itunes as far as I know? So you need multimedia codecs that can work with that format or quick time installed...i think?


----------



## Megalomaniac

How about VLC Player for the DVD.


----------



## 01eclipse

cvjoint said:


> I went with Centrafuse, Console, Electri-q, and Voxengo Audio Delay. For a free EQ. I would recommend the free version of Electri-q, that's a 64 band parametric with lots and lots of goodies and built in xovers.



this is the great thing about the vst hosts/plugins--- i tried electri-q, and was not crazy about it, so i have used some completly different plugins, but ended up with a very similar setup.


----------



## newtitan

01eclipse said:


> I am also using console, but have decided to go the usb sound card route and am using a ESI GigaportHD.



id highly recommended another soundcard, ive used that one, and a few other derivatives, and the preouts are SUPER weak, unless you use a line driver on each output, it will give you some issues once you get to the amps

and the asio drivers really arent that great eitehr once you start mapping the channels


----------



## The Drake

cvjoint said:


> Will do will do. Bluetooth update coming as soon as I find some time.
> 
> I just realized the other day Centrafuse does not play DVDs unless some video playback software. That's a bit upseting considering I payed money for it. Any good free video playback gear?
> 
> It also froze when I tried to make it play an AAC file  AAC software needed?


Here CV, you need this:

http://www.un4seen.com/filez/2/bass_aac24.zip

Copy ONLY the bass_aac.dll file directly into your centrafuse directory, it will play m4a files but NOT MP4 files. 

You can plan m4v (video) files as well but you have to do something in a ini file, I forget exactly but I think its on the fluxmedia forums and mp3car. 

The protected files from iTunes you will have to burn to a cd and then rip, nothing really you can do about them other than that.


I had planned on using centrafuse and still may, but right now I am leaning more toward ride runner (latest version of road runner) because of how customizable it is, its a pain to learn but I think might be well worth it.


----------



## MarkZ

01eclipse said:


> I am also using console, but have decided to go the usb sound card route and am using a ESI GigaportHD.


I'm using the Gigaport, too. But I couldn't get it to play nice with Console. I got skips and pops, no matter how much I tweaked the buffer size. Any suggestions? btw, are you using ASIO4All?



newtitan said:


> id highly recommended another soundcard, ive used that one, and a few other derivatives, and the preouts are SUPER weak, unless you use a line driver on each output, it will give you some issues once you get to the amps


I haven't had those kinds of issues. No noise issues at all.


----------



## _Dejan_

01eclipse said:


> wow, i don't know how i missed this thread...
> 
> dejan, any luck finding soundcard?


Yes. I will post more details next week in my thread... It is nice card but maybe for someone to expensive($250 + shipping)...



01eclipse said:


> for anyone else deciding to do a similar project , KVR: Virtual Instruments, Virtual Effects, VST Plugins, Audio Units (AU), DirectX (DX), Universal Binary Compatibility - Audio Plugin News, Reviews and Community has a huge database of free vst plugins, and a couple free vst hosts(though i went straight to console, so i can't comment on how they work).


Thanks for this link...



01eclipse said:


> once you have console setup, the ideas are only limited by your needs, and processing power.
> look up Aqualizer--a 31band _parametric_ eq, and LSfilter(a crossover, test tone program)Tried LS-Filter VST crossover...nice! - MP3Car.com, just those 2 will blow the bitone away.


In carpc is CPU power little problem... And I don't know if a lot of users run quad core CPU in carpc's 

You are forget Time Delay plugin(Voxengo Audio Delay)



cvjoint said:


> Will do will do. Bluetooth update coming as soon as I find some time.
> 
> I just realized the other day Centrafuse does not play DVDs unless some video playback software. That's a bit upseting considering I payed money for it. Any good free video playback gear?
> 
> It also froze when I tried to make it play an AAC file  AAC software needed?


For AAC in centrafuse you must download bass_aac.dll. You can find it in my WEBRadio plugin or. look In FAQ in fluxmedia site and you will see download link. You must copy it in main CF folder.

For DVD Im install ffdshow and where you enable codec's in ffdshow Im check box where write use ffdshow to decode DVD... This you need if you use XP. In Win7 if I remember you don't need do this because is DVDdecoder included... When you can play DVD's in Windows Media Player you can play it in CF too...


----------



## 01eclipse

MarkZ said:


> I'm using the Gigaport, too. But I couldn't get it to play nice with Console. I got skips and pops, no matter how much I tweaked the buffer size. Any suggestions? btw, are you using ASIO4All?
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't had those kinds of issues. No noise issues at all.



i also have some ocaisonal skips. i had been using virtual audio cable, asio4all, and the gigaport, but had issues with the vac clock speed---no matter which way i adjusted it, it would be to fast or too slow for console, and the audio would drop-out, or duplicate itself--it was like i was playing 6 of the same cd's at the same time, and all of them were not synced up to each other-- then once the internal clock caught up, the problem went away until the clock differences came back around (i spent about 3 hours playing with all sorts of different clock speeds)...

I am still having skipping issues though (although, in my 20 min ride to work, it might only do it every once in a while), using asio4all and the gigaport, but have resloved most of the issues by mapping the onboard sound into asio4all, using console to send the signal to the gigaport. currently, i have asio4all setup for the largest buffer available(i know it shouldn't be setup that way,but it works..).

using the windows drivers, the gigaport is very quiet . at first i had installed esi's software, and that increased the volume(it was literaly like adding a line driver) , but then had issues with both the software operating consistantly, and it randomly shutting down/exiting during use, but i had alot of issues in that particular build (i had a usb x-fi, and the drivers didn't like getting replaced with the esi), and have reloaded the computer since then, so i might need to give it another go.

newtitan-- what model would you recommend? with the way my audio is setup, i require a usb solution, would prefer something with 8 channel output, and it must be able to be run in console. i am always trying to find better eqipment, and have not really been convinced that the gigaport is the best, so any recomendations you might have under $500 would be great...


----------



## cvjoint

I got the DVD to play in Centrafuse.

Here's the way:
As _Dejan_ recommended ffdshow works. There are however a few hoops:
Go to Windows Media Player
Tools
Options
Dvd tab
Advanced
Check box for DVD decoding

Aparently most of these codecs cost money but are absolutely needed to play DVDs on any hardware. CF does not include it because Vista has codec built in but otherwise it costs money I imagine. 

I followed you guys on the AAC codec. I'll try it out.


----------



## _Dejan_

How to setup DVD decoding in ffdshow?
Open "ffdshow video decoder configuration" go to "Codecs" and find "MPEG2".
Then check "DVD decoding" and I think you must select "libavcodec" but Im not shure you can try first with "disabled" This you need if your operating system doesn't support DVD decoding(XP or older)...


----------



## newtitan

01eclipse said:


> newtitan-- what model would you recommend? with the way my audio is setup, i require a usb solution, would prefer something with 8 channel output, and it must be able to be run in console. i am always trying to find better eqipment, and have not really been convinced that the gigaport is the best, so any recomendations you might have under $500 would be great...



only issue with usb, is that most units with YOUR required number of outputs are firewire only

if you have the room your best best would be a fast track ultra 8R, you can buy TRS to rca plugs from guitar center, if you dont want to wire them yourself, and the only other hitch is that you will have to make sure your car PSU has an adaptor to transfer 12v to 9v dc to power it

not that difficult with a trip to radio shack or frys 

I know the carentix units will do a 5v option (which will work for the standard fast track ultra-but it only has 6 outputs)


anyway is you can somehow go firewire ( I dont know if your board has a firewire connector, or if you can fit a pci riser or something) 

then you are options with 8 outputs is far better, a) best option is the MOTU ultralite, b) profire 610

happy hunting, but either way they all are costly (but still under 500), but far better options , quality wise versus the gigaport units


----------



## cvjoint

I emailed the Electri-q guys some questions about the Linear Phase Mode. I am a bit confused as to the cons of such an arrangement.

The pros:
no frequency dependent delay
no phase distortion

Cons:
more system resources
delay from input to output

I noticed the delay from input to output playing DVDs on it, the audio lags a bit. It is in a way the price to pay for the perfect filter. Of course Audio player wise this is no big deal, there is no video content. 

Btw do you guys know if there is a way to delay the Video to match the Audio? I know some gear had this setup because some HD material video came delayed. Is there software to induce video delay or maybe a setting in Centrafuse?

There is off course one more problem. Is this delay equal on all Electri-q VSTs regardless of the EQ. settings as long as you are in the same mode: linear phase?

The primary goal behind my carputer effort was to get distortion free EQ. I learned no EQ. is perfect, I just have to pick the one that I can work with so the cons don't matter if that makes sense.


----------



## cvjoint

Got back a very fast response from the makers of Electri-Q. I'm pending their approval to release the response log. 

All in all I got my question answered and ...it is very good!

Now emailing M-audio for support on whether the output volume control of the card in Console is in the digital or analog realm.


----------



## cvjoint

From the makers of Electri-q:

So here are some answers for you:

> I have a quick question for you guys if you don't mind. I tried
> researching and there isn't much available on the linear phase filters.
>
> I understand the benefits of the filters not so much the cons. I
> understand there is delay and needs more resources from the CPU. Is this
> all? I notice the delay on DVDs or whenever there is video and audio. I
> also notice the linear phase mode pulls more peak CPU power, almost 100%
> more than digital but less average CPU power.
> 

Technically there are huge differences between the two modes, even if 
they achieve the same result (filtering). The digital mode uses the 
fastest possible way to perform the filtering. It only needs a bunch of 
multiplications and additions for each input sample (see IIR-filters for 
more details, Infinite impulse response - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). 
The filtering itself is done by cleverly delaying and mixing the delayed 
output back to the input. Although this feedback system results 
generally in a very fast response, it only responds fast for high 
frequencies, while the response for very low frequencies is delayed.

This delay for low frequencies depends on the fact that low frequencies 
have a large wave length and you can't change much about it. However you 
can delay the high frequency response in a way that the average response 
happens at the same time. However, this doesn't work anymore with the 
IIR network described above. You need to have a pre calculated filter 
kernel and use convolution to achieve the filtering. In order to achieve 
true linear phase filtering (which is another word for constant group 
delay filtering) you need a symmetric filter kernel with the same amount 
of pre-ringing and post ringing. This filter kernel is finite and thus 
this method is called finit impulse response (see 
Finite impulse response - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_impulse_response>

The convolution is done using the FFT from the Intel Performance 
Primitives, which is one of (, if not) the fastest you can get. Still 
this uses far more additions and multiplications per sample, which is 
why this method is slower. Also this comes at the expense of a general 
delay due to the FFT algorithm used here and the unavoidable fact that 
you have to delay the high frequencies a little bit.

> Which leads to the money question: I use a 4way system, aka 8 RCA outs. If
> I use the linear phase filter mode is the delay out of all 8 Electri-Q VST
> the same regardless if the EQ. modifications are different in each VST?
> Assume off course all 8 of my VST Electri-q are running in the linear
> phase mode.
> 

Yes, it uses a fixed latency then!


In short these are great news! In the linear phase mode there is no frequency dependent delay, phase shifts etc. The only downside is not a downside at all for audio playback because if the Electri-Q VST is used inline for each speaker in the Console tree all off the audio channels get the same fixed time delay.

Playing DVDs is a different story since the Video is played in real time while audio is slightly delayed. We need some software program that can delay Video to make this a perfect setup. I'm not worried too much since I don't watch DVDs and drive, it would simply be a fix for the passengers. Option two would be to save some alternate console setting like a preset for video playback where regular digital filters are used instead.


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> In short these are great news! In the linear phase mode there is no frequency dependent delay, phase shifts etc. The only downside is not a downside at all for audio playback because if the Electri-Q VST is used inline for each speaker in the Console tree all off the audio channels get the same fixed time delay.


I don't see reason why this can be problem/downside. You can connect it this way("Diagram" for one channel):
INPUT->Electri-q->Time Delay-> Output

Or Im miss something?



cvjoint said:


> Playing DVDs is a different story since the Video is played in real time while audio is slightly delayed. We need some software program that can delay Video to make this a perfect setup. I'm not worried too much since I don't watch DVDs and drive, it would simply be a fix for the passengers. Option two would be to save some alternate console setting like a preset for video playback where regular digital filters are used instead.


Did you look in ffdshow? ffdshow is very customizable tool...
Open "ffdshow video decoder configuration" then go to "Queue & misc" and you will see Video Delay 
Then you must be shure that you are set that is ffdshow used for all video decoding(I think you must this make in codecs)...
Tell me if this work.
How delay do you have? 20ms, 100ms, 500ms or more?


----------



## cvjoint

_Dejan_ said:


> I don't see reason why this can be problem/downside. You can connect it this way("Diagram" for one channel):
> INPUT->Electri-q->Time Delay-> Output
> 
> Or Im miss something?
> 
> 
> 
> Did you look in ffdshow? ffdshow is very customizable tool...
> Open "ffdshow video decoder configuration" then go to "Queue & misc" and you will see Video Delay
> Then you must be shure that you are set that is ffdshow used for all video decoding(I think you must this make in codecs)...
> Tell me if this work.
> How delay do you have? 20ms, 100ms, 500ms or more?


The first method doesn't work because you can only ADD delay. If there was a setting for -x ms then that would be awesome, in a time machine kinda way. 

Going to check ffdshow now...very excited! It doesn't even matter how much delay I have because if there is a setting in this ffdshow then I'll just delay it furter with the first method you proposed to match.


----------



## _Dejan_

You use firs diagram to match all speaker distance that came to your ear's in same time(Each speaker will have diferent delay) after this you in ffdshow delay your video that match to sound... This is way which I will use...


----------



## cvjoint

I don't think the video delay does anything. I even put in 20000ms, which should be 20 seconds of delay and I see no difference. Maybe it delays audio and video toghether.


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> I don't think the video delay does anything. I even put in 20000ms, which should be 20 seconds of delay and I see no difference. Maybe it delays audio and video toghether.


Are you shure that your application use ffdshow as codec for decoding?
How you know if it use it?
If you are not in ffdshow settings disable tray icon you must in tray see one or two ffdshow icons when you start playing video. If you not see this icons then your player do not use ffdshow as video decoder and video delay will not work. Try changing in codecs decoder to any other for your video file format.
Also look that your application is not in exception list: Direct Show Control-> do not use ffdshow in

P.S.
If you look in description of video delay in ffdshow you can see that write that option can be used if you have speakers far away so this is what we want...


----------



## cvjoint

It's possible, I don't know how to set the codec in either Centrafuse or Windows media. Now Windows media will only decode the video off DVDs.


----------



## cvjoint

Ok, got it. There are two tabs appearing in the tray, one is the audio codec, the other the video. I clicked on the video one and the settings I was saving were not there for some reason, you have to use the one in the tray, you can't go programs ffdshow etc. This time around I put half a second and it worked! 

I'm settling for 150ms of video delay for now. That seems to bring the video inline with the audio. I wonder if the guys at Electri-Q will give us the actual delay down to the millisecond. I'll try!

Good job Dejan, you nailed the bastard once again! The carputer should be ready to go in the car by the end of the week now.


----------



## The Drake

Just got an email from Centrafuse:
*
The new retail pricing for Centrafuse 3.0 will be USD $79.99, plus Navigation.*

We value our loyal installed user base, and know that nearly a thousand of you have purchased Centrafuse over the past few months. We want to recognize that commitment in form of a discounted upgrade price: 

*If you purchased any version of Centrafuse before August 1st, 2009
you can upgrade to Centrafuse 3.0 for USD $49.99*

We’re also looking forward to working with new CarPC enthusiasts. I realize that no one wants to buy Centrafuse today only to turn around and pay an upgrade when 3.0 is released. We’ve considered you as well: 
*
If you purchase Centrafuse after August 1st, 2009
you can upgrade to Centrafuse 3.0 for FREE*


----------



## cvjoint

The Drake said:


> Just got an email from Centrafuse:
> *
> The new retail pricing for Centrafuse 3.0 will be USD $79.99, plus Navigation.*
> 
> We value our loyal installed user base, and know that nearly a thousand of you have purchased Centrafuse over the past few months. We want to recognize that commitment in form of a discounted upgrade price:
> 
> *If you purchased any version of Centrafuse before August 1st, 2009
> you can upgrade to Centrafuse 3.0 for USD $49.99*
> 
> We’re also looking forward to working with new CarPC enthusiasts. I realize that no one wants to buy Centrafuse today only to turn around and pay an upgrade when 3.0 is released. We’ve considered you as well:
> *
> If you purchase Centrafuse after August 1st, 2009
> you can upgrade to Centrafuse 3.0 for FREE*


It's out already huh, I swear it was just yesterday we were talking about the beta version. Well, it should be free for me too damn it, I only bought it a month ago. Oh well, I will have to know for sure it's worth $50. Who's the guinea pig? 

Just in from Christian @ electri-q:

The "right" delay unfortunately depends on the sampling rate and the 
exact mode. For the "Economy Mode" activated it is half the time. As far 
as I remember it is a delay of 8192 samples (plus the internal delay by 
the filter kernel itself, but we assume this to be 0 for now). For a 
sampling rate of 48 kHz as it is typical for a DVD you'll end up with 
8192 / 48000 = 0,170666.. s = 170ms. So your guess was already close.


----------



## cvjoint

Tree finalized. I would still like to change the names to Tweeter, MID etc I saw it on Dejan's screen and I want it.  The delay filters seem to be combining L,R signals so use one per. 










Another thing to get from the above picture is volume control on all outputs. I found out a way to have 0 volume distortion in the chain. I turned all windows KMIXER volume controls all the way up, followed by all the output gains controls in M-Audio panel up as seen in the tree. The trick is to not clip the inputs and outputs. To prevent that I lowered the gain in Electri-Q by 7db on all plug ins. This gives more than enough headroom. Furthermore when I EQ I only do cuts which reduces output even more. therefore 0 gain control in the carputer, only in Electri-Q which as we talked about is a linear phase filter. 

Volume will then be controlled distortion free in the analog domain using two Audiocontrol units linked to a single master volume knob up front in the vehicle. Furthermore this amplifies the signal giving better signal/noise ratio. From the 12 channels available in this setup 8 will be used to drive the carputer audio output and 4 will be used to drive 2 pairs of RCA inputs so that low signal sources can sound as loud as the carputer itself though adjustment.

Next up the mode I chose: linear phase.










Out of all the filters on that list I can use all but FIR-Min and Linear IIR. Those two induce popping and clicking, the Fir min after more than 4 instances, the Linear IIR even with a single instance. The system monitor in Windows does not pick up CPU usage in excess of 25% so I don't know why this happens. Maybe the peak demand goes over 100% but can't be captured, I don't know. I'm almost sure I don't have enough CPU ability for these two but I may be wrong, correct me if you can. 

So what I'm sticking with is the linear phase mode with bug filters:









Thanks to Dejan and guys at electri-q we were able to overcome any drawback from this filter, namely the delay by delaying video as well. The result: distortion free filters with brick-like steepness. 

The CPU usage averages at 7% or so with peaks maxing out at 63%. No popping or clicking, sounds pure. 










And the last tease, the spectrum analyzer:










This one is great for many reasons. First I can place the general spectrum in the background with bass, subbass, mid etc delineations. I was playing with it last night and realized those SQ CDs from EMMA and the like have vocals that go 20hz-20khz! Those have to be enhanced, anyway. The best part about it is that you can adjust speed so high on it, that it's literally an RTA. Furthermore you can choose to analyze the output instead to see what your filters have achieved.


----------



## newtitan

wow man, you guys have really taken this waaay further than I ever imagined, and your pics REALLY help out, 

hell youve gotten farther in what two months, than I had in almost 12 lol, JOB WELL DONE

just waiting for my new soundcard to come in, and im building pc #2, and im sticking to it this time, you guys have inspired me to finish up a build I had in the closet for awhile


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> It's out already huh, I swear it was just yesterday we were talking about the beta version. Well, it should be free for me too damn it, I only bought it a month ago. Oh well, I will have to know for sure it's worth $50. Who's the guinea pig?


I think it will be worth. But not navigation version!!!



cvjoint said:


> Out of all the filters on that list I can use all but FIR-Min and Linear IIR. Those two induce popping and clicking, the Fir min after more than 4 instances, the Linear IIR even with a single instance. The system monitor in Windows does not pick up CPU usage in excess of 25% so I don't know why this happens. Maybe the peak demand goes over 100% but can't be captured, I don't know. I'm almost sure I don't have enough CPU ability for these two but I may be wrong, correct me if you can.


Im try Linear IIR and for me popping too, but FIR-Min looks that work ok(I have 5xElectri-Q and 5xTime Delay)...


----------



## cvjoint

newtitan said:


> wow man, you guys have really taken this waaay further than I ever imagined, and your pics REALLY help out,
> 
> hell youve gotten farther in what two months, than I had in almost 12 lol, JOB WELL DONE
> 
> just waiting for my new soundcard to come in, and im building pc #2, and im sticking to it this time, you guys have inspired me to finish up a build I had in the closet for awhile


That's because there were several gifted members in a variety of fields and were happy to contribute. DIYMA meets Carputer ha ha. I was looking back at the first few posts... man I knew nothing, two months later the monster project has taken off! It is taking about a month more than I had in mind, but it's also coming out to be a lot more than I was expecting. 

Now how am I going to get the great installers to come hook it up? 



_Dejan_ said:


> I think it will be worth. But not navigation version!!!
> 
> 
> Im try Linear IIR and for me popping too, but FIR-Min looks that work ok(I have 5xElectri-Q and 5xTime Delay)...


I think those modes are honestly resource hogs. I put my eyes on a quad core 3.0GHZ. With a bit of overclocking I could get the FIR-Min to work but there will really be no improvement since we got the video delayed. If the processor comes down to under $100 over the years I'll get it, otherwise I'm perfectly happy with the setup. 

I don't even mind the small 30gb SSD. I think I'm going to get a 16GB thumb drive to carry the latest music from my laptop. I have my goldies on the SSD, and 16GB is plenty for new music.


----------



## cvjoint

First stumbling block: Bluetooth functionality

Straight from Centrafuse's site:_
Can’t get it to work? Don’t fret. Bluetooth is not the most user friendly thing around.

Although Bluetooth has come a long way in 5 years, there still are situations in which things just “don’t seem to work”.

In some cases, maybe it just doesn’t work with that particular system, with that particular dongle, those particular audio drivers, etc.

In most cases, it's just a matter of configuring the system properly. _



This is the No.1 reason I got Centrafuse, so I can get solid bluetooth and GPS integration. However, from my trials I can _induce_ that this technology is not yet fully developed, it's ify. 

I did enough searching to know people have problems with it, so I bought 4 bluetooth dongles to play with to find the one that fits my setup the best:










Plus one off Centrafuse's list of compatible dongles:
100M/330' USB Bluetooth Dongle Vista Compliant 100M/330' USB Bluetooth Dongle [MCS-USBBT] - $7.99 : Mobile Computing Solutions: For Your Car PC Carputer and Kiosk Computer

Let me start off by saying that class, encription blah blah blah is not important, what is important is that you can hold connection without disruptions, functionality is ok as in all features work, and third sound quality is great.

First dongle:
The one in the link above for $8. This one could not hold connection for more than 8 seconds. All functions worked for all 5 seconds I could operate it. It basically prompts you to pair over and over again.

Second dongle:








Name brand and fairly expensive at $30. This one held connection for a few minutes than disconnected and asked to pair again. Everything else was flawless, best sound quality, good enough to stream music at high quality without distortion. The fact that it disconnects is obviously the death of this unit, that's the most important feature!

Third dongle:








Dlink, greatest one brand wise on the wall and expensive at $40. This is the only one that came with it's own bluetooth install CD. This one does not work without the drivers installed. Using the CD software this dongle is crap, it took me 30 tries installing to get the cursor in the password box to be able to enter the default password which was 'root' and untypable in a cellphone. Great job dlink. This software also destabilized the blootooth stack that came with Centrafuse so I had to reinstall it. Value $0.

Fourth dongle:









Among the cheaper ones. This one looks like a cheaper version of the dlink, it shares the same two led's, the difference is it comes without software...and it works! It only disconected once in the 2 weeks I had it connected. When it did it reconnected in a second, so keeping a good connection is not a problem, it takes about 5 seconds to connect and it works about 30 ft away. Feature wise everything works, call, hang up, battery display, coverage display etc. It's only downfall is in sound quality, good enough but not crisp clear like the Kensington. 


With my setup if I use a carputer mic the mic continously picks up sound and sends it through so I can't keep it connected otherwise I get echo. Not only that but centrafuse doesn't let me select my mic as input for the phone funcion...beats me. Either way nobody has gotten the mic to sound good in Centrafuse from what I can tell. From Centrafuse's site:
_My remote party hears themselves, or there is a bad echo on the remote caller's line.
This is a known issue.

Echo Cancelation / Noise Reduction (ECNR) is THE major obstacle in the production of hands free Bluetooth kits.

You may wonder why the car companies are able to implement this so well. These companies spend thousands and thousands of man hours perfecting the hands free feature. It's also worth nothing that they only have to worry about 1 system, 1 Bluetooth chip, 1 audio subsystem, and 1 microphone.

Our Bluetooth stack vendor is currently working on an even better solution.
_
My solution? 

A hybrid:
The bluetooth is turned on so that my carputer mutes music and displays the phone buttons during a call.
The phone is also connected though a 3.5mm jack to the carputer as an input so when I talk it picks up my voice though the phone mic and routes it to the caller, quality is great since it's in loudspeaker mode, and the caller's voice is crisp clear though the analog out cable, zero interference. I'm actually going to run this line though the Audio Control pre-amp to bring it up to the level of the carputer music so that there is no difference in output, or it's my chosen output level.

My method:
Pro's:
I get perfect functionality and reliablity
Great quality from the phone's mic, and analog connection
No need to install a mic, just a 3.5 line in the carputer which I'll have sitting around for an input anyway.
Con's:
I have to plug in the 3.5mm jack when I get in the car and click one button to select headphone mode on my Nokia. Either way I have to put my phone down, but this way it takes a second more to get things going.
Wired, not too bad considering you can't leave your seat as you drive, just give the wire some slack.


What we're waiting for is better bluetooth communication. Let me know if you guys find a dongle and mic setup that gives you the same benefits without my hybrid method. 

I heard the built in GPS sucks too, but there are other options for Centrafuse.


----------



## _Dejan_

Hi,
About your problems.
1.)What phone do you use?
2.)Im using in last carpc DLink DBT-120(Not same as you but older model) and work with Centrafuse very good. 

You must use IVT Bluesoleil which come with Centrafuse. Now is avalible CF2.2 BT update which have new stack(You must uninstall Bluesoleil install new one and replace dll in Centrafuse folder) which eliminate problems with voice Delay.

You are wrong when you are say that nobody has gotten the mic to sound good in Centrafuse.
ECHO is still present, but this is not problem of Centrafuse. Bluesoleil will make software ECHO cancelation but if you don't want wait you can use solution with SOHO card or. wait few weeks for USB ECHO cancelation device which is now in testing state...

I had problem s with pairing in CF(You must pair your phone in CF and not in BT stack) with my WM phone but problem has been in ROM Im change it and all start working normaly...

So most problems are in BT Stack(Bluesoleil) and CF Team are change it from Phoco because when they are start working in CF2 Phoco developer has stop with supporting this Phoco application. What will be without support for BT? Much less working phone solution 

About GPS(Destinator) in Centrafuse it use very old maps(year 2007) and there is no update for maps so problem is again with other company...
They are for CF3 ask many company for SDK that they will change Destinator GPS engine to any other but nobody doesn't like work with small company... So they can't doo a lot... But they are move Destinator GPS as plugin so everyone with skils and if can get SDK from any company can write plugin and completly replace standard GPS with all avalible commands... This Destinator GPS is in my contry better than iGo8(Im test it on feb-march with latest maps)... 

I hope you will fix problems with your carpc and I hope I will fix problems with my 
I can't change volume in CF for my output :S Im try enable volume control in Virtual Audio Cable, set "Master AS PRE" in CF but nothing doesn't help. Mute or ATT work normaly...


----------



## cvjoint

I use a Nokia N82, smartphone, uses some Symbian OS, 3rd gen I think.

There are several problems trying to pick up my voice as I see them:
My audio card will simply always record sound though the mic, I don't know how to mute the inputs if I don't need them. There would have to be a way so that my mic input will only be allowed to play though in the case of a call.

Then there is the problem that Centrafuse won't let me pick my mic input for the phone feature. Heck I don't even know if my mic works well for this application, it's the ECM8000, then it would be a ***** to mount and power, I have to convert the power supply off the pre-amp.

Only after these two do we get at the common echo problem. What is a SOHO card anyway?

I'm a bit harsh, I think I expected too much of Centrafuse, it only has minor interface drawbacks and what audio headunit doesn't?

I think I'll use my hybrid method for a year or two until this technology matures.


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> There are several problems trying to pick up my voice as I see them:
> My audio card will simply always record sound though the mic, I don't know how to mute the inputs if I don't need them. There would have to be a way so that my mic input will only be allowed to play though in the case of a call.


I can't help you a lot with this...



cvjoint said:


> Then there is the problem that Centrafuse won't let me pick my mic input for the phone feature. Heck I don't even know if my mic works well for this application, it's the ECM8000, then it would be a ***** to mount and power, I have to convert the power supply off the pre-amp.


ECM8000 is mic for mesaurement... I have one at home and I will use it fror precise tunning my audio system... I think that is better that you go with normal pc mic...



cvjoint said:


> Only after these two do we get at the common echo problem. What is a SOHO card anyway?


SOHO is sound card which you must mod adn you get ECHO cancelation option in your pc... Now is in developement/test state similar option on USB. So you plug this device into USB port and then you connect MIC into it and Line out. Device will be visible in Windows as Line/Mic Input and you will chose it in centrafuse... Line out you must connect because it must receive what is currently in your speakers and eliminate this sound from voice, so you get Clear sound(As is possible)... Device has been tested in big car(Renault Escape) with positive results now must be tested in some small car...




cvjoint said:


> I'm a bit harsh, I think I expected too much of Centrafuse, it only has minor interface drawbacks and what audio headunit doesn't?
> 
> I think I'll use my hybrid method for a year or two until this technology matures.


I think that currently is Centrafuse one of top carpc front end with very bad navigation... Sound engine is great(MP3, WAV, AAC, FLAC...), Video&DVD too, great plugin support...

I think I will instead application which Im write to you, make "ConsoleAutoRun" plugin which will check if Console runing and if is power button pressed  Im not shure when I will start writing it but I think when CF3 will be released 

Im fix my problem with Volume control in CF(Reinstall CF )


----------



## bobdole369

So - the point of all this.

Does it beat the Audisson?? I'm most interested in how the setup sounds.


----------



## cvjoint

_Dejan_ said:


> I can't help you a lot with this...
> 
> 
> ECM8000 is mic for mesaurement... I have one at home and I will use it fror precise tunning my audio system... I think that is better that you go with normal pc mic...
> 
> 
> 
> SOHO is sound card which you must mod adn you get ECHO cancelation option in your pc... Now is in developement/test state similar option on USB. So you plug this device into USB port and then you connect MIC into it and Line out. Device will be visible in Windows as Line/Mic Input and you will chose it in centrafuse... Line out you must connect because it must receive what is currently in your speakers and eliminate this sound from voice, so you get Clear sound(As is possible)... Device has been tested in big car(Renault Escape) with positive results now must be tested in some small car...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that currently is Centrafuse one of top carpc front end with very bad navigation... Sound engine is great(MP3, WAV, AAC, FLAC...), Video&DVD too, great plugin support...
> 
> I think I will instead application which Im write to you, make "ConsoleAutoRun" plugin which will check if Console runing and if is power button pressed  Im not shure when I will start writing it but I think when CF3 will be released
> 
> Im fix my problem with Volume control in CF(Reinstall CF )


The USB solution sounds great and maybe closer to being available than I thought. I imagine even though you went with a large motherboard design you still don't have PCI available for the current SOHO card because your audio card is in fact two piece.

I'm with you on the PC mic for btooth. Do let me know when there is a usb solution such as the one you propose and mic combo that really works. Until then I'll rock my hybrid method.

Well the plug in support will only get better with you invention Dejan!


----------



## cvjoint

bobdole369 said:


> So - the point of all this.
> 
> Does it beat the Audisson?? I'm most interested in how the setup sounds.


Saved for a fully detailed comparison. I will put these three systems head to head tonight when I'll have time to write a worthy comparison:
_My carputer sans the dual screen option to make this fair pricing wise
Alpine W200 & H701 Combo
Audisson Bit One & compatible headunit_


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> The USB solution sounds great and maybe closer to being available than I thought. I imagine even though you went with a large motherboard design you still don't have PCI available for the current SOHO card because your audio card is in fact two piece.
> 
> I'm with you on the PC mic for btooth. Do let me know when there is a usb solution such as the one you propose and mic combo that really works. Until then I'll rock my hybrid method.
> 
> Well the plug in support will only get better with you invention Dejan!


You don't need use SOHO on PCI slot  Look on fluxmedia forum... You can solder few wires into card for power and this is all  Is all explain in Fluxmedia forum... I will wait for final test of this USB device and if IVT(Bluesoleil) will not have software solution I will try it... It will cost about 50-70USD...
BUT I have one idea. Is maybe avalible any VST plugin for ECHO cancelation? If is then we can easy fix this 
For example:
mic input->Time Delay VST(Set delay which you need for phase linear distorsion as you say cca. 170-250ms)->ECHO Cancelation VST(Input1)
Line out ->ECHO Cancelation VST(Input2)
and then you route 
ECHO Cancelation VST out to virtual line input

ECHO Cancelation VST will calculate from Line1 and Line2 clean voice and route it to virtual line input which you have selected in CF...

I think if this is possible(ECHO Cancelation VST exist) this is best solution without additional hardware  What do you think? Can you look for some ECHO Cancelation VST plugin?


----------



## cvjoint

_Dejan_ said:


> You don't need use SOHO on PCI slot  Look on fluxmedia forum... You can solder few wires into card for power and this is all  Is all explain in Fluxmedia forum... I will wait for final test of this USB device and if IVT(Bluesoleil) will not have software solution I will try it... It will cost about 50-70USD...
> BUT I have one idea. Is maybe avalible any VST plugin for ECHO cancelation? If is then we can easy fix this
> For example:
> mic input->Time Delay VST(Set delay which you need for phase linear distorsion as you say cca. 170-250ms)->ECHO Cancelation VST(Input1)
> Line out ->ECHO Cancelation VST(Input2)
> and then you route
> ECHO Cancelation VST out to virtual line input
> 
> ECHO Cancelation VST will calculate from Line1 and Line2 clean voice and route it to virtual line input which you have selected in CF...
> 
> I think if this is possible(ECHO Cancelation VST exist) this is best solution without additional hardware  What do you think? Can you look for some ECHO Cancelation VST plugin?


I can look for ECHO cancelation plugin but:
We can't turn off the mic when we don't need it
I for one can't select any input into CF, it won't let me and maybe this relates to the problem above, maybe if I could it would cut off the mic when not in use.

Maybe there is a way to not have the mic input come through the mixer like all carputer sounds, maybe we can segregate the inputs


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> I can look for ECHO cancelation plugin but:
> We can't turn off the mic when we don't need it
> I for one can't select any input into CF, it won't let me and maybe this relates to the problem above, maybe if I could it would cut off the mic when not in use.
> 
> Maybe there is a way to not have the mic input come through the mixer like all carputer sounds, maybe we can segregate the inputs


Im with onboard sound card(Realtek ALC888) normaly use mic. Im select it in CF and only when Im make call or accept call mic has been enabled...
So I think that you have problem with all time enabled mic because you can't select mic in phone settings...
If you have time you can try VAC(Virtual Audio Cable) and make one line input, and see if then work ok...


----------



## cvjoint

_Dejan_ said:


> Im with onboard sound card(Realtek ALC888) normaly use mic. Im select it in CF and only when Im make call or accept call mic has been enabled...
> So I think that you have problem with all time enabled mic because you can't select mic in phone settings...
> If you have time you can try VAC(Virtual Audio Cable) and make one line input, and see if then work ok...


That's interesting, you can actually use the onboard audio card still? Is VAC the trick here?


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> That's interesting, you can actually use the onboard audio card still? Is VAC the trick here?


I think I can. but I don't need because I have mic and line in in new sound card and CF normaly see this line in and mic...

About VAC. I currently use VAC and ASIO4ALL because Is easy to set routing on sound card. LAter I will try without this but I think then in Console I can't select input source or I must select line in or optical in as input source in Console and make some loopback...
When I will have more time I will try without this two applications...


----------



## The Drake

hey cvjoint, how is the sunlight viewability of those screens you got? 

I picked up a cheap-o 10.4" LCD from onvon and it is fine at night and on cloudy days but its Almost useless in direct sunlight, I think imma eventually switch to a transflective screen with IR touchscreen, I would love to do a bond but that will be some serious coin that I am not sure would even be worth it.


----------



## cvjoint

The Drake said:


> hey cvjoint, how is the sunlight viewability of those screens you got?
> 
> I picked up a cheap-o 10.4" LCD from onvon and it is fine at night and on cloudy days but its Almost useless in direct sunlight, I think imma eventually switch to a transflective screen with IR touchscreen, I would love to do a bond but that will be some serious coin that I am not sure would even be worth it.


Couldn't tell you, my car is in the shop enough time this summer that I haven't had a chance to do much install wise. 

I bought the two brightest screens, if they are ureadeable I can do transflective treatment on them and still retain enough brightness.


----------



## t3sn4f2

cvjoint said:


> Couldn't tell you, my car is in the shop enough time this summer that I haven't had a chance to do much install wise.
> 
> I bought the two brightest screens, *if they are ureadeable I can do transflective treatment on them and still retain enough brightness.*


Naa, get one of these bad boys......

View attachment 11714


----------



## cvjoint

This project is well on it's way to be installed, and since the major driving force was to get a better processor than the ones available on the market a comparison seems natural. Here are the competitors:

1. Carputer
2. Alpine H701 plus some Alpine head
3. Zapco DSP6 plus some headunit
4. Audisson Bit One plus some headunit
5. Clarion DRZ 9255

This rounds up most of the top pics for high end processing. 

So let's get right down to it, the categories, 10 points available for each - 10 being best, judgment criteria at the bottom for those interested in details, comments welcomed:

Processing power (this includes the number outputs, EQ. flexibility, and availability of time alignment):

Carputer 10
H701 4
Bit one 4
DSP6 4
Clarion 3

Quality of processing:
Carputer 9
H701 5
Bit One 5
Dsp6 5
Clarion 5

Ease of install:

Carputer 1
H701 8
Bit One 7
Dsp6 7
Clarion 9

Interface:

Carputer 9
H701 7
Bit One 7
Dsp6 7
Clarion 6

Future upgrades friendliness:

Carputer 10
H701 1
Bit One 2
Dsp6 2
Clarion 1

Price (based on common availability, includes current ebay price):

Carputer 2
H701 5
Bit One 3
Dsp6 1
Clarion 7


Total:
Carputer 41
H701 30
Bit One 28
Dsp6 26
Clarion 31

Fun comparisons:
If money’s no object:

Carputer 49
H701 35
Bit One 35
DSP6 35
Clarion 34

If ease of install is not an object on top of money not being an object (this is what I call the best machine wins):

Carputer 58
H701 37
Bit One 38
Dsp6 38
Clarion 34


Conclusion:
Note that these scores very much coincide with what I feel true about these top notch packages. I compared the features that I felt were most important and the results mirror my beliefs. The carputer is a far better machine than the branded items, yes it tends to be on the expensive side and it takes a chunk out of your life to build but its abilities so far outpace the competitors than even when price and ease of install are taken into account it still remains the top dog.

What are these pre-packaged items other than dumbed down computers? I'm not surprised that the branded units fell so close to eachother. It's only a matter of clientele. Just look at how good the Clarion did in the totals yet how low it ranks after money and install are taken out of the picture. There is no doubt we face constraints, we’re either pressed for time or money or both in which case one of the branded items are somewhat attractive. This does not change the fact the carputer is the better machine, it’s processing is squeaky clean, it can be tailored for the specific owner, and finally it can grow with the ability of the owner. I for one would hate to have no way of getting what I want because the company that made the product only supplies a crappy accessory or it simply doesn’t work. As one of my colleagues likes to put it: _they have built in obsoleteness._



Category details:
Processing Power
I assumed equality on TA because all of them have it and it's plenty powerful. . 

Number of outputs, here DSP6 lost 2 points because it's a 3 way only design, 4 way systems are very common nowadays and I believed this to be a major drawback for this unit. 

EQ. flexibility:
The Clarion unit is the weakest in this subcategory given it's lack of processing in the subwoofer band. 

Rounding up the bottom end are the Bit One and H701 with their 31 band graphic EQ, I found that multiple times tunning with WinMls the graphic is useless when the given bands are not what you need, same goes for the Clarion, even if parametric the bands are pre-set. If you need to EQ at 690hz you should be able to, these units are restrictive in that sense. While the Clarion's parametric can adjust Q, the available bands are even more limited 5 vs. 31. 

Zapco is a step above the rest with pinpoint accurate 10 band parametric. What this unit gains in the EQ. section it looses by not being 4 way and therefore gets the same points as the ones before it.

This is off course one of the strongest points for the carputer. The limit is off course the sky, or better said available processor power. Either way with the carputer I have no problem getting 64 parametric bands to work. These bands are just as flexible as the DSP6. Furthermore you can always put 2 or 3 VST plug ins in Console to double, triple etc the 64 bands available. I see this as a major improvement over the Zapco unit since the midrange band often needs more than 10 points of EQ, especially a wideband setup. Furthermore the Carputer can do mythical "brick filters" the Bug filter being so steep that it makes the 18db, 24db, 30db, 48db Clarion, Zapco, Alpine, Audisson filters respectively look like feeble instruments. 

The only area where the Carputer ties the rest is in the db level of EQ adjustments, only +-15db leeway, then again if you need more something is very wrong with your setup or you have room cancellation effects that can't be EQd. 

Extra points to the carputer for being able to use a variety of filters: sine, cosine, Chebychev,...just about anything that's available out there. 

2. Quality of processing
DAC not too important to me because they are all single D/A conversion systems. If anyone is willing to compare the DAC directly go ahead, input is much appreciated.

All the units tested here are digital and therefore superior to the filters one would use in the analog domain where distortion is made by the filter (think EQ. built in amps or stand alone analog 31 band EQs). 

However all the units sans the Carputer still induce distortion since every EQ. setting will cause a phase shift dependent on that frequency. The effects are more noticeable in the lower frequency where the lenght of the sound wave is longer.

The carputer gets over this unequal delay problem though the availability of minimum phase or linear phase modes. The use of EQ. leaves no trace on the signal. A perfect 10 is not given here since you have to delay the video signal to match audio and video timing, a minor inconvenience. With enough processing power this too will be eliminated I would think but you will have to buy a top notch processor for lots of $. 

Furthermore with the branded units you don’t actually know the quality of the digital filters, you don’t know how volume is controlled whether in the digital or analog domain and so on. It’s safe to say that it’s wiser to assume the lowest expectations given just how basic their hardware/software is. I was able to completely control volume in analog domain using the Audiocontrol but can the same be said about the other units in the lineup? 

Pre-out voltage was not taken into account because all these units are able enough. Out of the pack the Alpine probably has the lowest realistic output voltage and yet I never had an issue with background noise.

3. Ease of install:
This is the major stumbling block in owning a carputer. You have to be the kind that perseveres though problems and has a rather large amount of time on your hand to build the sucker. The other units come in the mail. I gave the Carputer a 1 to show that you might have to pull some hair getting the carputer to work, and compared to an already boxed item it's infinitely harder. Then again mine came though alright and so can yours. 

Only the Clarion gets a 9 because it's all in one with one drawback, a separate DC converter. The H701 gets one more point over the universal units since it's easier to get going with an Alpine compatible unit.

4. Interface:

The carputer again fails to be perfect. As "whiterabbit" told me at the last meet a perfect interface is one where you can simply feel any function of the unit, a touchscreen off course fails. The carputer redeems itself by being able to incorporate multi function joy sticks and knobs for main controls without having to look, in this case the Powermate which can be programmed to do six functions in every program or master mode.

Like the H701 with W200, and Zapco combo the carputer can be tuned right there without a separate computer, you can even tune while you drive. The carputer goes a step further again by being able to store tunning software and the mic as part of the computer and therefore ditch the requirement for a separate PC.

The Bit One requires you to use a computer which I think is a drawback, the possibility is nice, but the lack of choice stings. 

While the Clarion might have more buttons it definitely does not have one for every function and therefore fails at attaining that one goal, while the small screen takes the intuition out of processing and increases it’s difficulty. 

I didn’t assign any points for turn on speed since the carputer can do it in 15seconds with the hibernate mode. SSD and hibernation are all you need to reach the turn on speed of pre-packaged items. I don’t see this as a barrier anymore. The carputer takes a long time to load if a disk is in the drive, noticeably more than the other units, but then again Btooth only takes a few seconds and some of these other units take forever with some of the accessories, furthermore the carputer is a pleasure to operate on SDD or thumb drives.

5. Future upgrade friendliness:
About the only flexibility available in the pre-packaged units, some software updating and auxiliary inputs are all there is to it. It’s rather simple and therefore very limited. By contrast the Carputer is virtually limitless, I personally used this ability to monitor engine functions on a second screen, store music on a harddrive, install a cd/dvd burner and more. You can personalize it however you want, you can even get voice command options.

That’s only half of it. Think about how easy it is to get stuck with a bad Bluetooth adapter or other accessory on the pre-packaged units, with the carputer you can simply try another dongle, some will be better than others. 

6. Price:
For the headunit option I think a good compromise is to use something around $800, the Alpine H701 goes for $400 used (discontinued), Audisson $800, Zapco $1200 with controller, and about $800 for a used Clarion Drz9255. My carputer list of parts sans the second screen, Bluetooth, GPS is the following (for proper comparison):
m-board
Intel Desktop Board DG41MJ - Overview
88 bucks on negg

processor
Newegg.com - Intel Pentium E5200 Wolfdale 2.5GHz 2MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor - Processors - Desktops
70 bucks on negg

heat sink 
SilverStone Technology Co., Ltd - Designing Inspiration[/quote]
20 bucks (low profile, good reviews, it gots copper!)

memory
Newegg.com - mushkin 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory
*I just picked this one based on negg reviews. Good brand?
Here is a link for a compatible 4 gb sets that fit my board:
Newegg.com - Computer Hardware,Memory,Desktop Memory,240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM,DDR2 400 - DDR2 900,1.8V,DDR2 800 (PC2 6400),2GB - 4GB,4GB (2 x 2GB),
44 bucks

hdd
Newegg.com - OCZ Vertex Series OCZSSD2-1VTX30G 2.5" 30GB SATA II MLC Internal Solid state disk (SSD) - Solid State Disks
130 bucks

case
4th Gen Mini ITX Case for Carputer Car PC with PCI Slot [MCS-BIC-PCI] - $97.00 : Mobile Computing Solutions: For Your Car PC Carputer and Kiosk Computer
97 bucks (includes pci raiser and its own 50mm fan)
*I may have to drill one of the endplates to accomodate external power supply and two additional fans

powersupply
Opus Direct
360W plus a 15W slave $220

audio card M-Audio 1010LT
Ebay new 110 bucks

Screen
Xenarc 7 High Bright LCD Touch Screen Monitor w/ VGA [702TSV] - $470.40 : Microsupply.com - Discount Electronics, Computer Parts, Laptop Accessories and Computers
470 bucks

Slim DVD burner
Panasonic UJ-875 Slim Slot load DVD±R/±RW/+RDL/RAM Multi Drive
83 bucks (to support MP3 car)

Slim enclosure USB coversion
Ultra Slim External Enclosure USB 2.0/FireWire
14 bucks

Volume Knob
Griffin Powermate Volume Knob 1100-PWRMTS
45 bones

Powered Hub:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817145036
17 bucks (seems to be good for long distances)

Power cable adaptors:
Extra Monitor Power Cable
Probably need 4 of these: two for the screens one for the USB Hub, one for external HDD
5 bucks a pop

VGA Male to Male 25ft cables for the monitors
Newegg.com - Rosewill 25 ft. VGA Male to Male Coaxial cable Model RC-25-VG-MM-BK - Cables
13 bucks each

USB 16 foot extension cable from hub to motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812224004
$11 says it's a 'repeater' cable, better for long runs. ummm what is that?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812270158
USB cables 6 foot 7 devices to hub
$2.3 a pop. Male to Male is ok right?

Software:
$55 Console
$150 Electri-Q
$65 Centrafuse

Total carputer:
$1725

Totals:
Clarion $800
H701 $1200
Bit one $1600
Carputer $1725
Zapco $2000

If $2000 is 1 point then every $200 is a 1 point loss


----------



## _Dejan_

Hi,
Great post/review. I have few questions. Do you have all this items at home? Or are you write this only from technical specifications? 
Did you do any SQ test? What has been diference in SQ beetwen diferent systems?


----------



## cvjoint

_Dejan_ said:


> Hi,
> Great post/review. I have few questions. Do you have all this items at home? Or are you write this only from technical specifications?
> Did you do any SQ test? What has been diference in SQ beetwen diferent systems?


I'm a big scientific method kinda guy and with that being said almost none of us properly test these versus eachother. I would love to be able to test all of them blindfolded, on the same equipment, but even then some sort of distortion pattern might sound better and the results are skewed. The human ear plain sucks I don't trust other's subjective opinions and I don't expect people to trust mine. I compared only what I think it's comparable. 

All I can tell you is that I played though my speakers at home in near 0 noise level and it was as quiet as it can be at idle and then very lifelike and dynamic during songs. It beasts my optical hookup from the laptop or better said my dual DACs built into my high end Sony receiver, back when they made them well. It does all you can ask it to do sound purity wise, I can detect no sonic fingerprint.

I owned the H701 w200 combo before and I've heard at least one car with each of the processors above but I'm telling you it's apples and oranges unless you can control for the experiment, we never satisfy the requirements. Technically the carputer is a straight winner and subjectively I don't see why it couldn't, it suffers from none of the zipper noise or artifacts I've heard on some of the branded items.


----------



## yermolovd

One thing well noted is the ease of installation. Or complete opposite .

I must say carpc has been the most frustrating thing in car audio so far for me. Naturally because it's a computer . As much as I love them and use them as the main tool doing my daily job, I hate them just as much.

cv, what is your final conclusion on volume control from CF? Are you going to get the AC unit? This it the biggest concern for me, as I like CF very much otherwise.

Another annoying thing I stumbled upon at this point is usability of FreqAllocator on a 7" in its native resolution. It just doesn't fit in. While I can set 1024x768, at that point it all becomes a bit too small. I'm sure a 10" screen would be awesome , but no space for that.


----------



## The Drake

cvjoint said:


> I'm a big scientific method kinda guy and with that being said almost none of us properly test these versus eachother. I would love to be able to test all of them blindfolded, on the same equipment, but even then some sort of distortion pattern might sound better and the results are skewed. *The human ear plain sucks I don't trust other's subjective opinions and I don't expect people to trust mine. I compared only what I think it's comparable. *
> 
> All I can tell you is that I played though my speakers at home in near 0 noise level and it was as quiet as it can be at idle and then very lifelike and dynamic during songs. It beasts my optical hookup from the laptop or better said my dual DACs built into my high end Sony receiver, back when they made them well. It does all you can ask it to do sound purity wise, I can detect no sonic fingerprint.
> 
> I owned the H701 w200 combo before and I've heard at least one car with each of the processors above but I'm telling you it's apples and oranges unless you can control for the experiment, we never satisfy the requirements. Technically the carputer is a straight winner and subjectively I don't see why it couldn't, it suffers from none of the zipper noise or artifacts I've heard on some of the branded items.


Good Man!

I have often found that terminology isnt even uniform in this field, people throw around words that they dont really understand what they mean or think it means something completely different. 

I would like to add that a computer has a great deal of opportunity to induce noise in a system, especially when it comes to power. I havent had any trouble using the carnetix 1900 and JL's line drivers for volume control.

I would agree that a carputer is the worst as far as ease of installation. I can see now why there is such a small market for them. If I wasnt so dedicated to setting up my system I would have quit a while ago! I would go as far as to say it was/is Much more of a hassle compared to just setting up the rest of the system (amps, speakers, placement, enclosures, deadening, wiring, etc...). But I had a lot of limitations because I am only using a Dell Mini 10 for my carputer, if I went the route of building a system to my specifications I think it would have been a little easier. And I let Zapco do my processing, I didnt even have to mess with half the programs that cvjoint has to for processing.


----------



## cvjoint

yermolovd said:


> cv, what is your final conclusion on volume control from CF? Are you going to get the AC unit? This it the biggest concern for me, as I like CF very much otherwise.
> 
> Another annoying thing I stumbled upon at this point is usability of FreqAllocator on a 7" in its native resolution. It just doesn't fit in. While I can set 1024x768, at that point it all becomes a bit too small. I'm sure a 10" screen would be awesome , but no space for that.


I set all volume controls to max in windows, CF, Console. I only had to figure out a way to reduce output volume as it would occasionally clip the M-Audio outputs. I did this by using gain control from Electri-Q, I figure it's in linear phase mode so it shouldn't have any drawbacks in terms of sound quality. 

I did get the AC units, I'm thinking of combining them and the Power Supply in a new case with forced cooling but now I'm afraid I might get some noise interference.



The Drake said:


> I would like to add that a computer has a great deal of opportunity to induce noise in a system, especially when it comes to power. I havent had any trouble using the carnetix 1900 and JL's line drivers for volume control.


I would guess if I actually used a power supply in my case it would have been true. I'm using an external one and in that sense it's more flexible and less prone to noise. I will be using the AC line drivers and the M-Audio outs are already very strong.

Install is the major drawback and I think I showed that point. I'm hoping this thread is a walk in the park for those that want to use exactly my choices and then there's still a lot of customizing to do.


----------



## cvjoint

t3sn4f2 said:


> Naa, get one of these bad boys......
> 
> View attachment 11714


What's up with these? The brightness rating is only 400 or so.


----------



## t3sn4f2

cvjoint said:


> What's up with these? The brightness rating is only 400 or so.


Think it's 600+tranflective+anti glare+polarized coating.

Death Valley | Car-PC Shop für Auto Computer!


----------



## cvjoint

t3sn4f2 said:


> Think it's 600+tranflective+anti glare+polarized coating.
> 
> Death Valley | Car-PC Shop für Auto Computer!


I can't tell if the stuff they used in screen treatment or actual hardware. My plan was to have the Xenarc go under surgery for transflective treatment. I figure starting from a 1000nit screen is dominant strategy. Now I don't know about this polarized coating but it does have anti glare.


----------



## t3sn4f2

cvjoint said:


> I can't tell if the stuff they used in screen treatment or actual hardware. My plan was to have the Xenarc go under surgery for transflective treatment. I figure starting from a 1000nit screen is dominant strategy. Now I don't know about this polarized coating but it does have anti glare.


The mp3car T screen has the same purple hue (except it appears glossier). So it might be a standard thing that you upgrade could easily have added as well. I think it's something useful since I've seen that same purple hue in helicopter displays.


----------



## bbfoto

GREAT comparison cv!!! 

That is A LOT of Excellent info and I for one appreciate the time and energy you spent in compiling it all into a simple, cohesive post!

I'm trying to figure out a way to implement the Sony RM-X90 Wired Rotary Remote Commander for the Sony CDX-C90 HU. I currently have this HU in one of my cars and I can control ALL of the functions that I normally want just by tactile feel with this remote...there's no need to take my eyes from the road whatsoever. For me, this is the Perfect Interface, at least for my music selection while driving.

For tuning and sytem settings, of course it's easier with a mouse/keyboard/touchscreen, but once I'm on the road and driving, this is all I need for music player control!


----------



## The Drake

Oh yeah, I dont remember reading if you ever said you were going to use a remote or not? Which one did you pick if you picked one at all?


----------



## cvjoint

Great gear you got there, I loved Sony back in the day just down to earth top notch gear. They didn't mind making it affordable and attractive either. I think you hit the nail on the head with the interface, it has to be intuitively easy to control while driving, if possible no visual input needed yet flexible like nothing else other than a mouse and a keyboard can do. I'm using the following:
While driving:








The usual volume is done though the AC unit remote knob, so this one does skip function. Press and twist is next or previous track. There are at leas a couple more functions I can assign though the press ability but haven't done so yet. 
Touchsceen for all else, Centrafuse has a good enough interface even big thumbed individuals like me can use it.

Yet while parked I can use this just by pluging in the Bluetooth dongle in a USB port:








Thanks to the Electri-q ablities I can type in 345.213HZ frequency and butcher it any way I want.


----------



## bbfoto

Cool. I've got a few of those Griffin Powermate's on a shelf somewhere...I got lucky and picked them up for $18 shipped, haha.

BTW, has anyone been able to configure the Space Navigator (see pic below) in any of the Front End's? That seemed like it would be sweet controller! Or would it be overkill because the Powermate will do everything you need it to do?










But I still like my Sony RMX-90 Rotary Commander!

Hopefully soon it will all be controlled via Voice Recognition! It's getting there...just take a look at the MS Sync in the Fords and the V-R in the new Kenwood DNX-9140!

Nice BT keyboard & mouse setup, too! Someday (hopefully soon) BT will be seamless! I'm looking forward to that day.

Are there any comparable sound cards to the M-Audio 1010LT but with a Firewire or USB interface that would work with the new Intel Mac Mini (booting WinXP or Vista)? Or are the bandwidth limitations of USB & 1394 a problem for this type of soundcard?

Thanks again for all the info here everyone! It's a great resource to have at our fingertips.


----------



## _Dejan_

Hi be carefull with USB&Firewire solutions because you will have big problems with hibernate or sleep mode...


----------



## yermolovd

bbfoto said:


> Cool. I've got a few of those Griffin Powermate's on a shelf somewhere...I got lucky and picked them up for $18 shipped, haha.
> 
> BTW, has anyone been able to configure the Space Navigator (see pic below) in any of the Front End's? That seemed like it would be sweet controller! Or would it be overkill because the Powermate will do everything you need it to do?


Search for RBC9 drivers for space nav.


----------



## bbfoto

Thanks for the tips Dejan & yermolovd!


----------



## yermolovd

I have slight concerns about usability of space nav while driving, because it's a bit too sensitive. I've seen someone on mp3car mod it (put some type of foam insert under the knob).


----------



## qpwoeiruty999

yermolovd said:


> I have slight concerns about usability of space nav while driving, because it's a bit too sensitive. I've seen someone on mp3car mod it (put some type of foam insert under the knob).


RBC9 drivers let you customize thresholds, so sensitivity is not a concern. You can customize it EXACTLY how you want it to "feel"


----------



## cvjoint

bbfoto said:


> Cool. I've got a few of those Griffin Powermate's on a shelf somewhere...I got lucky and picked them up for $18 shipped, haha.
> 
> BTW, has anyone been able to configure the Space Navigator (see pic below) in any of the Front End's? That seemed like it would be sweet controller! Or would it be overkill because the Powermate will do everything you need it to do?
> 
> Nice BT keyboard & mouse setup, too! Someday (hopefully soon) BT will be seamless! I'm looking forward to that day.
> 
> Thanks again for all the info here everyone! It's a great resource to have at our fingertips.


I looked into the navigator and decided not to based on what was said here. I think that unit is optimized for something else, was it graphics, video games? Anyway, the Griffin is solid and precise, you can go over a dirt road and still be able to use all of its functions, not to mention is amazingly easy to program, just find the hot keys in Centrafuse, or better yet program easy ones! Simplicity in design goes a long way, and then it feels like my top heavy metal ball shifter, it's manly!

I was amazed to find out the Logitech Revolution btooth setup didn't even need installing to begin with, it just got recognized in the bios as a keyboard on the first boot! If only cellphone Btooth functionality worked just as easily.

I stayed away from the USB cards, why introduce more problems in the design when the carputer is a monster to get to behave anyway? I have a packed hub already with no external audio card, then you gotta think how much juice does it draw and can you even provide it.


----------



## mbcouple

bbfoto said:


> GREAT comparison cv!!!
> 
> That is A LOT of Excellent info and I for one appreciate the time and energy you spent in compiling it all into a simple, cohesive post!
> 
> I'm trying to figure out a way to implement the Sony RM-X90 Wired Rotary Remote Commander for the Sony CDX-C90 HU. I currently have this HU in one of my cars and I can control ALL of the functions that I normally want just by tactile feel with this remote...there's no need to take my eyes from the road whatsoever. For me, this is the Perfect Interface, at least for my music selection while driving.
> 
> For tuning and sytem settings, of course it's easier with a mouse/keyboard/touchscreen, but once I'm on the road and driving, this is all I need for music player control!



Try looking at JOYcon, it should allow you to use the sony, or any resistive type remote.


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint I think Im find one thing how you can little reduce CPU usage in console 

You can use ONE instance of Time Delay plugin for 2 channel something like this:









Then you open Time Delay plugin and press on "Routing" and Select "Dual Mono"
Then you will see something like this:









On botton you will see LEFT and RIGHT with this you change channel... I hope that this will help you reduce little your CPU usage...


----------



## cvjoint

Aha! Routing was the key then, I couldn't find that function. Try to delay one side only my say 100 meters and see if the other side gets delayed as well to double check. 

I still haven't figured out what the samples delay does vs. audio delay. Maybe it's just additional delay...I don't know.

I got my car back from the shop the other day, I'm going to install the carputer in the next 4 weekends. there will be lots of updates, carputer related material here and speaker install in my install thread to keep this on the subject.

My buddy also found a way to get Garmin GPS on Centrafuse, and I want it!


----------



## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> Aha! Routing was the key then, I couldn't find that function. Try to delay one side only my say 100 meters and see if the other side gets delayed as well to double check.
> 
> I still haven't figured out what the samples delay does vs. audio delay. Maybe it's just additional delay...I don't know.
> 
> I got my car back from the shop the other day, I'm going to install the carputer in the next 4 weekends. there will be lots of updates, carputer related material here and speaker install in my install thread to keep this on the subject.
> 
> My buddy also found a way to get Garmin GPS on Centrafuse, and I want it!


Hi,
This methode work ok!!! Tested!!! Im delay left chanel for 4sec and I can hear delay only on left side. If you leave routing default then it delay both sides(Left and right) for same time... So this is as must be...

I think I will complete my in 3 weeks  Tomorrow I receive 2 new bateries(AGM 100Ah 4000A) for "back trunk" where original has been spare wheel and then continue with building my setup 

You are talking about Garmin Mobile PC? How? Have he wide screen? On normal 4:3 screen is posible easy add it into CF... But on Wide doesn't work for me...


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## cvjoint

_Dejan_ said:


> Hi,
> This methode work ok!!! Tested!!! Im delay left chanel for 4sec and I can hear delay only on left side. If you leave routing default then it delay both sides(Left and right) for same time... So this is as must be...
> 
> I think I will complete my in 3 weeks  Tomorrow I receive 2 new bateries(AGM 100Ah 4000A) for "back trunk" where original has been spare wheel and then continue with building my setup
> 
> You are talking about Garmin Mobile PC? How? Have he wide screen? On normal 4:3 screen is posible easy add it into CF... But on Wide doesn't work for me...


I don't have the Garmin yet.

I like that you figured out the delay, always nice to save a little bit of processing power!

Why do people use frequency allocator anyways?


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## _Dejan_

cvjoint said:


> Why do people use frequency allocator anyways?


Maybe use less CPU sources...


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## cvjoint

So I gots quite a bit of work done. I'll post up this week whenever I can. I did so monitor work: 
Took out unnecessary buttons, left on only sensors:




































The main monitor had an annoying green LED which I had to snip out, the rest can be plugged back in at a later time if needed, but all these controls are available on the remotes. 

Made room for computer monitor:









Ready for duramix:









Word of advice don't use this 702 model Xenarc in tight spaces, it was a ***** to fit, the faceplate is way too big.


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## The Drake

Nice, yeah I had to cut the panel for my 10.4" to trim it down so that it would fit cause as you can see from my install thread that screen BARELY fits in there. I ditched the buttons altogether, found that I didnt need them at all since I got windows automatically adjusting brightness/contrast after a certain time.


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## cvjoint

The Drake said:


> Nice, yeah I had to cut the panel for my 10.4" to trim it down so that it would fit cause as you can see from my install thread that screen BARELY fits in there. I ditched the buttons altogether, found that I didnt need them at all since I got windows automatically adjusting brightness/contrast after a certain time.


I could do a 10 incher if I wanted to relocate the AC controls but...I'm out of room with two screens and 10 inch speakers in the doors etc  All the extra space I have is now in the elbow rest and glove box, and the USB hub takes the lower part of the elbow rest...

BTW I thought Centrafuse can adjust brightness to after some time...I set it but I don't notice it


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## The Drake

cvjoint said:


> I could do a 10 incher if I wanted to relocate the AC controls but...I'm out of room with two screens and 10 inch speakers in the doors etc  All the extra space I have is now in the elbow rest and glove box, and the USB hub takes the lower part of the elbow rest...
> 
> BTW I thought Centrafuse can adjust brightness to after some time...I set it but I don't notice it


Yeah, centrafuse does it but IIRC its only contrast that it adjusts and not brightness.


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## cvjoint

I'm going to skip some of the build steps because I forgot my phone charger in the 7 days in which I had to install the gear.

Second monitor shaved buttons, primer stage:









Main monitor in the dash bezel, primer stage:









Powersupply case. I combined the line drivers which are also my all analog volume control with the powersupplies in one case to save space. Even so the monster is about a cube foot in volume. 15w 5v hub powersupply on one side:










12V carputer powersupply on the other:









Audio Control units on the sides:









And the cooling fans on one side 120mm intake fan on the other 120mm exhaust fan of lower capacity. Positive air pressure design. The whole tunnel assembly is off course metal and therefore even better at dissipating heat.


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## bobdole369

Hey cvjoint, did you ever end up having this PC do your crossovers too? If so what software did you use?


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## cvjoint

Yep, the carputer does pretty much everything. I'm using Console, ElectriQ, and some delay plugin. 

The carputer has been running for almost a month now, with 0 overheating issues, minimal background noise, no turn on pops, virutally trouble free. The only thing giving me trouble from time to time are the screens, Xenarcs aren't that high quality imo. 

Maybe I'll get more time to post pics and give feedback but gradschool is taking all of me for now.


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## bobdole369

Looking pretty deep into electriq, I hadn't noticed the xover aspect yet. Was considering frequency allocator lite. The arbitrator in the full program looks neat, but I think its meant for component sets. I have all separates so I think I can dispense with that. 

How do you like electriq?


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## cvjoint

Electri-Q is bitchin'! I do xovers, gain, and EQ. with it. The Xovers are nice because they are infinitely flexible and also steep. The gain is nice, you dedicate one point out of 64 as the gain and then simply by touching one of the Electri-q VSTs you can adjust gain up and down with your finger on the touchscreen. I was always worried on the fly adjustments would be hard. With the dedicated gain dot it doesn't matter where your finger is left, right just up down the way you want it. Eq. wise is again infinitely flexible and fingerprint less thanks to linear phase modes. 

Learn from my findings though:
*some modes are too resource intensive, like Fir-Min
*some modes induce distortion, the usual analog ones by design but also I found out the Bug Filter. There is a ring to it, not good. 

I think I finally settled at Linear phase mode with triangle filters for crossover.


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## egoaudio

cvjoint said:


> Electri-Q is bitchin'! I do xovers, gain, and EQ. with it. The Xovers are nice because they are infinitely flexible and also steep. The gain is nice, you dedicate one point out of 64 as the gain and then simply by touching one of the Electri-q VSTs you can adjust gain up and down with your finger on the touchscreen. I was always worried on the fly adjustments would be hard. With the dedicated gain dot it doesn't matter where your finger is left, right just up down the way you want it. Eq. wise is again infinitely flexible and fingerprint less thanks to linear phase modes.
> 
> Learn from my findings though:
> *some modes are too resource intensive, like Fir-Min
> *some modes induce distortion, the usual analog ones by design but also I found out the Bug Filter. There is a ring to it, not good.
> 
> I think I finally settled at Linear phase mode with triangle filters for crossover.


Hi CV,

So you're using electri-q for crossovers too? How many instances of electriq are you running then...... or can you process multiple outputs through one instance of electriq?

Thanks,

EGO


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## cvjoint

egoaudio said:


> Hi CV,
> 
> So you're using electri-q for crossovers too? How many instances of electriq are you running then...... or can you process multiple outputs through one instance of electriq?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> EGO


Yep, Electri-q does everything but time alignment. I run a total of 7 instances of Electri-q for my 4 way setup. The manual states that while two channels can be used they will be combined, so yes one per speaker. U can sum 2 inputs but same thing will come out on both outputs.


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## _Dejan_

Ding dong what is with your carpc project? Is still alive?

I have one question for you(and I don't remember if Im ask you this thing)...
Im receive answer from M-Audio support that 1010LT will allowme only outputs 3-8 to send processed signals to my amplifiers. Is this true? So I can't use output 1 and 2? 
Do you have any problems with sleep/hibernate with this card?


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## AppleBonker

cvjoint,

I must say, that build is quite impressive. I never really considered a carputer, but my Alpine W205 is starting to crap out on me, so it is time to upgrade. I was interested in the new W900 that is to be released, but I would then need a new bluetooth adapter as well as a new backup camera. I've gotten tired of the proprietary nature of Alpine components, and the tuning capabilities that you have discovered make this a very tempting option (albeit probably slightly more expensive for me). I'm currently running an H701, but it looks like you have the ability to tune a whole lot more from your car than even the Alpine processor will allow. Thanks for the detailed thread. Now I'm off to begin my research on possibly building a car pc.


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## yermolovd

_Dejan_ said:


> I have one question for you(and I don't remember if Im ask you this thing)...
> Im receive answer from M-Audio support that 1010LT will allowme only outputs 3-8 to send processed signals to my amplifiers. Is this true? So I can't use output 1 and 2?


The support is either full of **** or they misunderstood you. I had all 8 outputs working just fine.

Haven't tried hibernating with it.


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## _Dejan_

yermolovd said:


> The support is either full of **** or they misunderstood you. I had all 8 outputs working just fine.
> 
> Haven't tried hibernating with it.


So if I understand you:
-You have one application which "send sound" to MME like WindowMediaPlayer(Without ASIO plugin)
-Then you have VST Host with VST plugins which process sound from this MME and use ASIO and "send sound" to outputs?

Because I need soundcard which can do this and have 8 outputs(4way system)...


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## yermolovd

I used RR with winamp + asio output plugin if I remember right, then console and the vst business.
I also had Centrafuse, set my card as default windows output device, selected 1010 in centrafuse and then console and so on.

yes I had 4-way going. It's been a while and the pc is out of the car now, but this is as far as I remember. I don't see a problem with 4-way using 1010 as far as outputs go.


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## cvjoint

_Dejan_ said:


> Ding dong what is with your carpc project? Is still alive?
> 
> I have one question for you(and I don't remember if Im ask you this thing)...
> Im receive answer from M-Audio support that 1010LT will allowme only outputs 3-8 to send processed signals to my amplifiers. Is this true? So I can't use output 1 and 2?
> Do you have any problems with sleep/hibernate with this card?


Carputer is alive and well! I knocked out the second screen for now since I don't have time to really make it work flawlessly. I will pick it up again in the Summer if I have time. Never overheated so far. It seems one USB might have died, I need to double check this. About 1 in 20 times I use it I get a glitch, like it randomly resets on its own, but I'm ok with that, it's a complex beast. I'm currently enjoying the Garmin GPS integration, got me out of trouble lots of times. 

Any update on USB Btooth cards/microphone integration?

I'm using outputs 1 through 8 no problem. Not sure what's up with customer support. Output 1 and 2 are my tweeters. 

I forgot whether I tried sleep or hibernate, but it worked 3 out of 3 times I've tried it with boot up times of only 15 seconds to music playing/Btooth on, etc. Small sample size but promising. Historically this card tends to have issues from what I remember so I'm doing full shut down just to minimize problems. 



AppleBonker said:


> cvjoint,
> 
> I must say, that build is quite impressive. I never really considered a carputer, but my Alpine W205 is starting to crap out on me, so it is time to upgrade. I was interested in the new W900 that is to be released, but I would then need a new bluetooth adapter as well as a new backup camera. I've gotten tired of the proprietary nature of Alpine components, and the tuning capabilities that you have discovered make this a very tempting option (albeit probably slightly more expensive for me). I'm currently running an H701, but it looks like you have the ability to tune a whole lot more from your car than even the Alpine processor will allow. Thanks for the detailed thread. Now I'm off to begin my research on possibly building a car pc.


Well you need lots of free time and patience. You got that and it will come toghether. Glad the thread was some help and good luck!


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## MarkZ

newtitan said:


> id highly recommended another soundcard, ive used that one, and a few other derivatives, and the preouts are SUPER weak, unless you use a line driver on each output, it will give you some issues once you get to the amps
> 
> and the asio drivers really arent that great eitehr once you start mapping the channels


I don't mean to resurrect this post from the dead, but since the thread's active again, here goes...

I've been trying my damnedest to get the Gigaport 8-channel USB to work nicely. I think I've finally made it. And that's good news for everybody because it's a relatively cheap card, and the only 8-channel USB solution I know of in its price range.

First of all, the ASIO drivers seem fine. I play through foobar2000 and have it set to ASIO mode. The foobar volume control WORKS, but kmixer doesn't -- which suggests to me that it really is ASIO and that foobar's volume is pre-processing. Two thumbs up for foobar2000. I'm not using VST plugins. I'm using foobar2000 DSP plugins which use practically zero CPU as it's embedded in the player. The problem is that there isn't a good delay plugin yet, but I'm working on that.

Second of all, yes, the line outs are EXTREMELY weak. I haven't actually measured them yet, but my guess is somewhere in the 1v p-p range. So, I've taken on a little bit of an upgrade project. After investigating the circuit board, I've realized a couple things. First of all, it's centered around the AK4358 8-channel DAC, which seems acceptable. Its output section is filtered around NJM4580 op amps with a gain <1, and then muted. My plan is to tap directly off the differential outputs from the DAC and run that into a new board, probably using LME49720 op amps. This will bypass the entire Gigaport analog section and allow me to use my own (with my own gain). With +/-5v rails off the board, I'll probably be able to get somewhere on the order of 6v p-p.

Alternatively, I could simply modify 2 resistors per channel on the gigaport board, changing the gain structure to achieve similar outputs. But these are all micro resistors and I hate soldering those little bastards...


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## cvjoint

Unfortunately I'm selling this carputer since it won't fit in an S2000. If any of you guys are interested in it you get 10% off from whatever is listed currently on there for helping me out :
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/78167-fs-all-i-have-scan-speak-seas-ae-carputer-alternator-clarion-monster-cable.html


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