# More power to clean up midbass? Also, some crackling as I increase volume.



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I got my Seas L18's in last night, and the doors are DEAD. Along with a 3/4" mdf baffle, clay on both the door & speaker interface, and a layer of ensolite.

Everything together sounds pretty good, but the midbass seems to be a little muddy. Maybe it's just that I'm not used to a dedicated midbass, but when I crank it up it just sounds muffled. I've got about 45 watts @ 8 ohms going to them, and can bridge one 4 channel to give about 130 @ 8 ohms, and just use the other 4 channel to power my midranges...power availibility isn't a problem. However, I'm not sure if power will help this or not. I'd hate to do all that for no reason since I'm not sure if that's a normal response for a dedicated midbass.

Also, as I gradually increase the volume (after it's already decently loud) I get a little crackle for each volume step.

Looking for your advice here, guys. I'm really new to a complete 3-way setup. 

Thanks in advance.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> I got my Seas L18's in last night, and the doors are DEAD. Along with a 3/4" mdf baffle, clay on both the door & speaker interface, and a layer of ensolite.
> 
> Everything together sounds pretty good, but the midbass seems to be a little muddy. Maybe it's just that I'm not used to a dedicated midbass, but when I crank it up it just sounds muffled. I've got about 45 watts @ 8 ohms going to them, and can bridge one 4 channel to give about 130 @ 8 ohms, and just use the other 4 channel to power my midranges...power availibility isn't a problem. However, I'm not sure if power will help this or not. I'd hate to do all that for no reason since I'm not sure if that's a normal response for a dedicated midbass.
> 
> ...


I have a suspicion your midbass is too loud. If you have access to an RTA, you might be able to verify this. Turn it down a bit and see what happens.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> I have a suspicion your midbass is too loud. If you have access to an RTA, you might be able to verify this. Turn it down a bit and see what happens.


Unfortunately I have no RTA, nor a way to get one.

FWIW, the speakers are rated @ 100watts @ 8ohms rms. I wouldn't suspect overpowering based on that, but I could be wrong.

When I turn off all other speakers and listen to these alone there's no distortion...just not enough "detail" I suppose. once again, I've never had a dedicated midbass crossed so low (260hz with 18db slope), so it's possible this is the way it should be.

I can't really adjust anything until later tonight, after our little family get-together, but I can notch the gain down to see what happens. Just not sure what to really expect with a midbass crossed as low as it is.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Readjust your gains. They need to change when switching to 8 ohm speakers. Should get rid of the crackling. Also give it a lil time to break in.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

tyroneshoes said:


> Readjust your gains. They need to change when switching to 8 ohm speakers. Should get rid of the crackling. Also give it a lil time to break in.


Readjust as in, lower, or higher? I know I can do this myself...just trying to get an idea of what to expect.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Whats your highpass on the midbass at. The lower the frequency and less steep the slope the more muddy it will sound especially with the power you are giving it and at higher output demands.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Whats your highpass on the midbass at. The lower the frequency and less steep the slope the more muddy it will sound especially with the power you are giving it and at higher output demands.


HP @ 260, IIRC. Slope @ 18db.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

This coincided with the gain question. Since my amp is capable of 100 @ 4, can I set it higher than that since it's now powering 8 ohms? In other words, can I give it 200 @ 8 by turning up the gain? Is this the same as 100 @ 4, or will doing that drive it into protection? 

I have the possibilty of bridging, which give me 260 @ 4ohms, so that means at least 130 @ 8. Is that a better choice for the amp? 

I'm not trying to be a "more power is better" guy, it's just that these speakers are suggested @ 100 watts @ 8ohms, so I have a feeling that increasing the power to them may be what is needed.

Thanks for helping so far.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> HP @ 260, IIRC. Slope @ 18db.


 That would be your lowpass if you have a 3way plus sub. Do you have anything taking out the low bass from the L18 if not I'd say thats why you have the muddiness problem, too little power for the output you want and no highpass on it to increase power handling and clean up the lower midrange on it.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> This coincided with the gain question. Since my amp is capable of 100 @ 4, can I set it higher than that since it's now powering 8 ohms? In other words, can I give it 200 @ 8 by turning up the gain? Is this the same as 100 @ 4, or will doing that drive it into protection?
> 
> I have the possibilty of bridging, which give me 260 @ 4ohms, so that means at least 130 @ 8. Is that a better choice for the amp?
> 
> ...



Nope 8 ohms will just give you half the power and the gain will adjust that half amount. I would set a highpass on it around 80 with at leat 12db slope and bridge the amp but it might not be needed with the limited output of your mid crossed so low, unless you like it louder then the mid in the midbass area.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> That would be your lowpass if you have a 3way plus sub. Do you have anything taking out the low bass from the L18 if not I'd say thats why you have the muddiness problem, too little power for the output you want and no highpass on it to increase power handling and clean up the lower midrange on it.


sorry, I wasn't thinking.

lp: I've tried 80hz & 71hz both @ 24db slope


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> Readjust as in, lower, or higher? I know I can do this myself...just trying to get an idea of what to expect.


 

set them properly with a DMM then turn them down just a tad


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> sorry, I wasn't thinking.
> 
> lp: I've tried 80hz & 71hz both @ 24db slope


K, let them break in and try lowering like everyones said, maybe some EQ too if you have a peak in that area somewhere.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> sorry, I wasn't thinking.
> 
> *lp*: I've tried 80hz & 71hz both @ 24db slope


lol hiiiiiighpass  think about it like this, lowpass lets the lows pass, high pass lets the highs pass. Or are you telling me your sub lowpass


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

More power is better...


...until you run out of excursion. 

The speaker should do well off the power you're giving it, but there is more to gain.

Also if the speakers aren't broken in yet, give them a little time.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> lol hiiiiiighpass  think about it like this, lowpass lets the lows pass, high pass lets the highs pass. Or are you telling me your sub lowpass


Man, it's hard to think when you've got 3 10 year old boys running around you shooting basketball in the house. lol...I wasn't thinking...I just typed. At that point I would've just followed some lemmings I was so oblivious to what was going on here. 

hp @ 260
lp @ 80


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

mvw2 said:


> Also if the speakers aren't broken in yet, give them a little time.


Alot of people say this. Any ideas on how long to expect this to happen? I'm not going to bother the gains/eq until I feel this has taken place. No need for double work.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> Readjust as in, lower, or higher? I know I can do this myself...just trying to get an idea of what to expect.


This link should help when setting gains. 

http://www.subwoofertools.com/forum/setgain.asp


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Whats your highpass on the midbass at. The lower the frequency and less steep the slope the more muddy it will sound especially with the power you are giving it and at higher output demands.


Agreed.

The difference can be VERY big. Same xover slope on my midrange, 560 @ 18db, and the cleanness and snappyness of 160hz 18db, compaired to 250hz 24db is VERY much different. Try different slopes/points, and when you get one you like that sounds the best, then start messing with cutting frequencies, while you listen, you can take that muddiness out if its still audible.....

With my extremis running down to 63hz, i have 4db cutts down to 50hz, and back up to 400-500hz i have -1db cutts, where the midrange overlaps slightly over the midbass, blends very nicely, and midbass textures are very rich.

Trial and error.....its not going to happen over night unless you know your car, speakers, and ears very very well.....trial and error is what its going to take to get it "right"......its coming up on 1yr for mine, and everyday it sounds better...granted i do tune sometimes and it sounds worse....but its all part of the hobby.

Oh yea, btw if you think its overexcursion problems EQ cutts down low will help, sub should help out as well, when blending and supporting the midbass, which is also based on your projected sub response.............i have my sub at 80hz, 30db, and it blends very nicely with the extremis at 63hz 24db...


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Alot of people say this. Any ideas on how long to expect this to happen? I'm not going to bother the gains/eq until I feel this has taken place. No need for double work.


give them at least 10 hours of general play. one of mine had 3 months use and the other was brand new. the used one sounded so much more open and natural than the new one.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I know how to set gains, and I realize that x-overs make all the difference.

What I am really asking, is what should I expect to hear out of a speaker crossed so low? It's hard to judge since I don't really get any voices, so that leaves me with not much experience to go on since I've always used a DMM for bass, and ears for voices. Coming from a 2-way, the whole Mid-bass area is a little bit tricky for me. Know what I mean?

After giving them a listen at high volume, they still sounded really low. I'm beginning to think they just need more power to do what I want them to. Along with that, could someone address my other question: my amp does 100x4 @ 4ohms. Since these are 8 ohm speakers, can I set my amp to give 200 @ 8 safely on two channels, or is that still overdoing the amp? I can bridge and get 135 @ 8 ohms (270 x 2 @ 4) if necessary.

Also, the crackling is only with the passenger side speaker. After I get to 17 on volume (with 23 being max listening) it starts to make a crackle with each adjustment up...sometimes back down it doesn't, sometimes it does.

So far I'd say they've gotten about 3 hours of listening.


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## Whiterabbit (May 26, 2006)

crackle in the volume knob can often be attributed to dust inside the pot. Usually confined to analog volume controls.

what radio is it?


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

rabbit, im guessing he is using the IVA-D310 he has listed in his sig


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Whiterabbit said:


> crackle in the volume knob can often be attributed to dust inside the pot. Usually confined to analog volume controls.
> 
> what radio is it?


alpine iva-d310...external processor controls everything though.


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## forty5cal1911 (Sep 11, 2006)

> hp @ 260
> lp @ 80


Isn't this x-over config backwards? Shouldn't you be running lp @260 and hp @80 to effectively give the midbass (bandpass) bandwidth starting at 80hz up to 260? Also which amp are you running to these mids the alpine or the blau? Are you running the midrange or tweeters off of this amp also? It wasn't clear to me from your previous posts what the configuration is.


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## Whiterabbit (May 26, 2006)

bobditts said:


> rabbit, im guessing he is using the IVA-D310 he has listed in his sig


I turn signatures off. bunch of useless garbage that wastes bandwidth and also my life  There is literally nothing in anyone signature ever anywhere that is worth having written or read.

does the 310 have a digital volume knob?


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> I know how to set gains, and I realize that x-overs make all the difference.
> 
> What I am really asking, is what should I expect to hear out of a speaker crossed so low? It's hard to judge since I don't really get any voices, so that leaves me with not much experience to go on since I've always used a DMM for bass, and ears for voices. Coming from a 2-way, the whole Mid-bass area is a little bit tricky for me. Know what I mean?
> 
> ...


raising your gains is not gonna give you more power then those ratings, it will just let you achieve that power with a lower input voltage. 

I personally would run the amp bridged that way you can lower the gains to reduce noise and give the speakers cleaner real power and put less stress on the amp.


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## evangelos K (Aug 27, 2005)

t3sn4f2 said:


> That would be your lowpass if you have a 3way plus sub. Do you have anything taking out the low bass from the L18 if not I'd say thats why you have the muddiness problem, too little power for the output you want and no highpass on it to increase power handling and clean up the lower midrange on it.



What he said. You need to bandpass the L18, say from 75H to 260Hz. As it is now, it plays same freq as the sub down low...


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> Alot of people say this. Any ideas on how long to expect this to happen? I'm not going to bother the gains/eq until I feel this has taken place. No need for double work.


I'm not sure. When I got my slightly used set of W18NX woofers from another member, they were still not fully broken in. I think it varies on the driver and how much you actually push them. The Mach5s I'm playing with right now sounded good after about an hour of good play time. The Seas seemed to take a good bit longer.

Still, more power would be good. I was running my Seas off a 75w x 4 amp, so I was only giving them around 30-35w rms. They faired well, but you really couldn't force any serious output out of them. I ended up getting my second Z4000 amp for them. Now I've got them brided for an available 300w rms @ 4ohms, if need be. The sound didn't really change but you could actually run them fully. The Excel uses the high loss surround and is very strongly dampened. Off low or high power, they remain well controlled and don't get upset. Even off low power, they didn't sound bad, just wouldn't really pelt it out. The L18 doesn't have the high loss surround, so bottom end may turn out a bit sloppier, more exteneded but sloppier. You may have a greater adverse effect off low power than me. 

However, muddy isn't usually the general problem. It's more of a general lack of output. You crank it up and bass just drops off when you don't have enough power to move the cone as much as needed. If the muddiness is specific to the lack of power, I'm not quite sure. It might be, it might not be. It could simply be EQing. The presence can be degraded depending on subwoofer, woofer integration, time alignment, and general EQ blending. When everything's balanced and in sync, everything sounds great. When something's off, you start to get annomylies that could come across as boomy, muddy, a vague, disjoined presence, lots of things really.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Great reply. Thanks.


I'll bridge the amp and see what happens. I feel like when I turn all other speakers off I just don't have enough output from them compared to everything else. I'll see if power helps.

As far as the posts about x-overs...I know hwo to set them. I just wasn't thinking when I typed, lol. I had a houseful of folks over and was in the living room with them while typing it all.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Have you tried listening with your door panels off. I saw your install thread and those inner fins on the OEM grills look pretty deep. It could reduce off axis output quite a bit I would think. The accord grill inner fins are much shallower, maybe grinding them down to like 1/8 of an inch deep could help with output and clarity. It might reduce how resilient they are to someone hitting the grill with their foot but I would risk it.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Have you tried listening with your door panels off. I saw your install thread and those inner fins on the OEM grills look pretty deep. It could reduce off axis output quite a bit I would think. The accord grill inner fins are much shallower, maybe grinding them down to like 1/8 of an inch deep could help with output and clarity. It might reduce how resilient they are to someone hitting the grill with their foot but I would risk it.


I'll do that as well. I had no problems with my rainbows though, and they were installed the same way.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I'm back.

I bridged my amp to give each speaker about 100w rms each. 

The Right speaker crackles as I turn up the volume, and when I leave it up it will crackle a couple times. Not constant..and doesn't seem to be with any bass notes. I've never had a speaker do this before and am not sure what to look for. It's not hitting anything...it's pure "crackle". Didn't have this issue before with the Rainbows, and I didn't change any wires. As far as electrical goes, it was a straight plug & chug, though I did have to use quick connects instead of the screw-type connection on my last speakers.

I really need some suggestions here.

Edit: Right speaker. I was typing in a hurry.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> I'm back.
> 
> I bridged my amp to give each speaker about 100w rms each.
> 
> ...



Hhhhmmm, only the left? If so, try swapping left amp out to right speaker, maybe its a defective speaker, see if the problem moves over then it could be higher up on the chain......


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

I wonder if something fell into the voicecoil. It's very easy to happen with the L18s. If its only crackling on one side then something is wrong.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

durwood said:


> I wonder if something fell into the voicecoil. It's very easy to happen with the L18s. If its only crackling on one side then something is wrong.


It's really odd. It's possible that some modeling clay dropped in there...I'm not sure. Right now I've got them off. 

I only hear the crackling at high volumes...it sounds like an electrical short. Really strange.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Did you switch r with l rcas? Same speaker crackling?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

tyroneshoes said:


> Did you switch r with l rcas? Same speaker crackling?


No. However, when I bridged, I had to split the cables up, and the RCAs are setup different than earlier this week...when I first noticed the crackling. So, in a way, yes I did change the RCA's. 

I can't get to the amps unless I get some help moving my 80+lb subwoofer box off the top layer of my false floor. I can't do it myself because of my bad back.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Do the swap on the speakers.


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## Weightless (May 5, 2005)

How easy would it be to swap the left speaker for the right speaker? If it's not that easy, what about swapping the left and right speaker out leads from the amp?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I'll have to give that a go tomorrow. I'm with my girl tonight and can't get into that tonight.

I just have a feeling it's something with connection at the speaker. When I was installing the speaker I had some trouble getting the connector to slide all the way on, so it's possible it isn't making a full connection. Not sure if that would be causing the static noise though..

I'll look into this more tomorrow and let you know my results. 

In the meantime, are there any other suggestions on what to look for tomorrow?

thanks for the advice thus far.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

It might just need more time to break in. My MD160s made all kinds of noise until the suspensions loosened up and now I can beat th episs out of them and they don't make any odd noises.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> It might just need more time to break in. My MD160s made all kinds of noise until the suspensions loosened up and now I can beat th episs out of them and they don't make any odd noises.


hhhmmmmm. Could be.

Man, if that's the case, that really sucks. I'll be playing the guessing game for a while. Still odd that one doesn't do that, though.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Make sure that the speaker terminals aren't grounding out on the door metal. I had a similar problem in my truck and that was the cause of it.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> Make sure that the speaker terminals aren't grounding out on the door metal. I had a similar problem in my truck and that was the cause of it.


good thing to check for as well. That could easily be the problem, since I had to cut the OEM hole to accomodate the 7" speakers. 

Keep 'em coming guys. I know it may seem pointless until I can tear my car apart tomorrow afternoon, but the more things I have to check off the bat, the less trouble (and posts) there'll be. 

Thanks again, all.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

oh yeah, I forgot you had to cut to get them in. it could easily be that. i had that happen once and i "fixed" it by adding dynamat extreme to the opening...except that has a metal skin too! doh!!

pulling the mid out of the door will tell you if it's that though. if it just needs to break in you won't really know. i kept getting busy when i wanted to look at mine and then one day i noticed that they weren't popping anymore so i stopped worrying about it since the MW160GTS I had in there before did the same thing.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Pulled the door panel off today and took the speaker out.

Some clay had apparently melted and fell into the voice coil. I scraped it off and got it out, and still have the problem. It sounds like something hitting, or it's bottoming out. Can't tell.

I've switched RCA's, and even powered it off a seperate channel. Same problem. It's the speaker. Now I just need help figuring out if this is just break-in, or if the clay screwed it up, or if this is a defective speaker...

Also, I held the tinsel leads down once to make sure they weren't just hitting the cone and I still had the "clunk" noise.

video:


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Clean em up and exchange the driver.


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## pontiacbird (Dec 29, 2006)

i don't know if the clay would necessarily melt, but under pressure, i would think the clay that is being squeezed out would have to go somewhere, in your case, in the voicecoil....that sux....

this is a moot point, but next time i'd just take some duct tape and cover up the exposed side


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Scotchguard some grill cloth and stretch it over the back of the whole driver to protect the driver from those type of things, water , and dust. Maybe even a panty hose instead.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

So, everyone agrees it's the clays fault? 

No possible way this is still associated with break in?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Anyone?


Pleeeeease tell me it's the break-in?...



I don't think I can completely get all the clay off...I'm gonna have to pay for a new speaker. Me=


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Try using it for a while like that and see if it goes away, what do you have to lose.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Try using it for a while like that and see if it goes away, what do you have to lose.


Nothing I suppose...I'll be stuck paying for a new one regardless, if it doesn't break in.

Ahh!!!!!!! This sucks!


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

Sounds like it's the modling clay. I wonder if there is still some in there. Maybe it caused some damage to the voicecoil or there is still soem in there causing it to stick or misplace the voicecoil. I bought some of those foam baffles from PE and cut the backs and bottoms off to protect from water or particles falling in them, but the pantyhouse/grill cloth idea sounds good or better too. maybe you will get lucky and eventually whatever fell into the coil will fall out, but if the voicecoil is already damaged or bent or whatever I think you might be out of luck.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

durwood said:


> Sounds like it's the modling clay. I wonder if there is still some in there. Maybe it caused some damage to the voicecoil or there is still soem in there causing it to stick or misplace the voicecoil. I bought some of those foam baffles from PE and cut the backs and bottoms off to protect from water or particles falling in them, but the pantyhouse/grill cloth idea sounds good or better too. maybe you will get lucky and eventually whatever fell into the coil will fall out, but if the voicecoil is already damaged or bent or whatever I think you might be out of luck.


Who knows what's going on. I cleaned out the clay as much as I could but it just doesn't help. I can't figure out what it is...it sounds like a slapping noise (if you watch the vid, you can hear it). I think I"ve learned my lesson with clay this time.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I thought it was only one speaker...but both do this.

I played them on 2 seperate amps.
I played them off a new set of wires directly to the speakers.
I played music, then tones. 
I switched channels on the amp.
I played in the doors & free air.
After I got the same "popping" sound from both, I measured voltage with a DMM.
Got this:
For passenger's side 21.8v. So ~ 60watts @ 8ohms.
For Driver's side 24.7v. ~77watts @ 8ohms. 

Clipping shouldn't be an issue here, since my amp is rated @ 300w x 2 bridged @ 4ohms. Therefore, 150w x 2 @ 8ohms. 

I only am trying to get rated power out of these speakers and am having a rough time. 

I called Madisound and the guy said he didn't know what it could be. He suggested I try a new amp, and I did. Other than that, I ran into a wall with them. He also said he was sure it wouldn't be break in, since that doesn't make a "noise", it just causes the speaker to not sound as clear.

Any suggestions here? Am I simply overpowering them (with much under suggested power)? They've been playing for at least 6 hours on at least 50watts, but never more than 100w. They've never played below 80hz w/a 30db slope, and only gone up to 1.2k today just to see if there was a difference. Usually they've been between 80-315. 

I'm about to pull my f*ing hair out trying to figure this out. On top of all that, they just don't sound good unless I turn it down pretty low. Once I get to about 50w they start sounding crappy. I've overdriven speakers a few times when setting gains just to test my limits, but never has one made this noise before. 

Here's a link to the video again. This is the sound both make.

Heeeeeelp!


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I'm not sure why, but my MW160s popped a lot before they loosened up, and it took maybe a month or a tad longer. If both of your drivers do it either your exceeding their limits or they're bad.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

They're rated for 100w @ 8 ohms continous.

The resistance across the VC is 6.8 ohms. I tested ac voltage @ the point where the sound is made and figured power from that. 24.7^2/6.8=90watts. < rated power.

On top of that, with 100 @ 4ohms they barely move. The excursion on these is ~.5" one-way...they don't get more than 1/8" and they start making that noise.

I could understand if it was one...but 2 of them? And they've NOT ONCE seen over 150watts @ 4ohms. And that was this afternoon. Up until today they've been @ about 50w @ 8ohms.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> I'm not sure why, but my MW160s popped a lot before they loosened up


Did they pop like mine do, though?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Help! 

This has effectively ruined my Saturday plans.


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

Thats a tinsel lead problem.

It is creating uneven force on the suspension, causing the voice coil to go off centre.Probably going to upset a few people here, I don't like that type of setup. Ideally they should be woven into the spider at symmetrical intervals.

Solution is to "fiddle" with the tinsel lead to alleviate the side pressure on the coil.Less arch more arch etc until it doesn't cause this audible effect. I am not a fan of this 1 watt testing method as this sort of behaviour is unlikely to show up in the tests (also power compression)


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Anymore information on how to fix this?

Just play with the leads while playing the speaker until I find the right combination?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Played around with the leads. I noticed a difference with different positioning; some things would quiet the noise, but nothing stopped the noise.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

I would say time to replace the speakers.......hopefully return if you can prove they are defective.


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## kappa546 (Apr 11, 2005)

t3sn4f2 said:


> I would say time to replace the speakers.......hopefully return if you can prove they are defective.


agreed.
if you've tried everything everyone has contributed i'd guess the same thing. u just got back drivers.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I'm officially beyond pissed right now.

I put one back in the door after sealing it up VERY well. It acts worse mounted than free-air.

I'm sending them back.

I'm pretty sure they're gonna dodge the warranty since clay got on the voice coil of one of them. I would've thought that's what damaged it, but the other one does it too. So, I'm pretty damn sure I got a bad set. 

I'm SERIOUSLY about to flip out. Pissed does not even begin to describe the emotion I'm feeling.


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

I would not wish to imply that I have had a great deal of experience with this driver.
However in every case the tinsel leads have caused considerable problems, basically it is a design flaw. I am sure if everything is exactly correct, these drivers perform admirably (it is a matter of being exceedingly patient and try try again).


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

IF it isint the clay, mess around with some EQ.......and start making some cutts from 50-100hz, and keep trying that, cause i DO at really loud volumes when the driver is physically overexcurting, and it does on VERY punch high resolution midbass and heavy kicks they will go crazy and you can easily get that type of sound from them........... A few eq notches down in the above range and it fixed it, and contoured the sound a little better.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

demon2091tb said:


> IF it isint the clay, mess around with some EQ.......and start making some cutts from 50-100hz, and keep trying that, cause i DO at really loud volumes when the driver is physically overexcurting, and it does on VERY punch high resolution midbass and heavy kicks they will go crazy and you can easily get that type of sound from them........... A few eq notches down in the above range and it fixed it, and contoured the sound a little better.


I played with the EQ quite a bit when I had them free-air and it didn't help much.

Also set x-overs every which way I could imagine and the sound still existed.

I'm beginning to think this could really be a design flaw.

Admittedly, I thought the clay caused it, but since both do it, I'm really starting to think it's something completely unrelated to what _I_ did.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Here's a response I got in SD:

"Your problem is very common with a DIY driver. It needs to be sealed \:\) They are not ment for IB use!"


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Here's a response I got in SD:
> 
> "Your problem is very common with a DIY driver. It needs to be sealed \:\) They are not ment for IB use!"


Dunno if this has been tried but can you raise the HP xover somewhere over 100 with a steep slope, where excursion is very little and see if it does the noise at 60 watts?


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## kappa546 (Apr 11, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> Here's a response I got in SD:
> 
> "Your problem is very common with a DIY driver. It needs to be sealed \:\) They are not ment for IB use!"


hahahah silly geese


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Okay. 

I told him that there were many who had this same driver in the same application and he said that they HAD to be sealed. 

Just wanted to run that by the guys here to see if this holds water.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Okay.
> 
> I told him that there were many who had this same driver in the same application and he said that they HAD to be sealed.
> 
> Just wanted to run that by the guys here to see if this holds water.


Sounds like a blowing you off type of response. Zaph has a ported design with that driver on his site.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Called Madisound again. The guy that I talked with (who was nice and knowledgeable) said that the L18 isn't made for auto application. I told him I tried in doors, & free-air. They worsen in the doors (which are dang near sealed). I told him I have 5 layers of deadener, 2 layers of ensolite, etc etc. He's not really sure why it would be doing this unless it's just application. 

I'm sending back the pair to get them tested. At this point I don't even care if it's user error...I just want to know what it is. If it is indeed application I'm starting over and selling mine to someone who can use them. 

I'm fed up with this situation. I'm likely gonna be out $165. 

PS: Once I told him there were many users on this forum using them in the doors he quit hassling me about putting them in a car.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Something just popped into my head when you said it got worse in your door. Are you absolutely sure the mounting surface is level??? If it's off even a little and you warped the frame you could EASILY have the problems you're having.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> Something just popped into my head when you said it got worse in your door. Are you absolutely sure the mounting surface is level??? If it's off even a little and you warped the frame you could EASILY have the problems you're having.


That could be an issue. I'll check the frames this afternoon when I get home.

However, I did look at the one with the clay very closely and didn't notice anything bent out of the ordinary. I'll give a look over when I get home though.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

Check the phase plugs too. On one of mine the phase plug was not centered completely. Plus it was kind of loose. Maybe its rubbing or hitting that or maybe the phase plug is moving around. It didn't seem to be a problem on mine but it's worth checking.

I don't think the frame is warped, its a cast aluminum frame.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

durwood said:


> Check the phase plugs too. On one of mine the phase plug was not centered completely. Plus it was kind of loose. Maybe its rubbing or hitting that or maybe the phase plug is moving around. It didn't seem to be a problem on mine but it's worth checking.
> 
> I don't think the frame is warped, its a cast aluminum frame.


Now, see, that could be it. The noise I'm getting sounds like something is hitting something else. I checked the woofer to make sure it wasn't skewed off-center and it looks fine. I also pushed the woofer out to make sure it wasn't rubbing the sides. I checked the center, but didn't think I could move the plug. Is it possible to take the plug out and play it? If there's a way to do that, I can eliminate that. I'm really new to DIY drivers so I had never even heard of a phase plug until a month ago.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Bump...durwood, do you know if the phase plug can be removed so I can test it without it?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Just shipped them back with this note:

"Problem:
“slapping” while playing. Does not seem to be an excursion problem because it does it at low power and the furthest excursion I get is < 1/4” before the sound starts. The one-way excursion is said to be close to 1/2". 

Things I’ve tried:
Played free-air, and in sealed doors. Car application. I can provide at least 4 names of DIYma forum members who run these speakers in the auto application.
Noise is more prominent actually in the door than when IB (which leaves me stuck).
I played them on 2 separate amps.
I played them off a new set of wires directly from the amp to the speakers (not ran under carpet).
I played music, then tones. 
I switched channels on the amp.
After I got the same "popping" sound from both, I measured voltage with a DMM.
Output was no higher than 70w @ 4ohms on each side before I got the noise.

I wouldn’t expect clipping at this low power to be an issue here, since my amp is rated @ 300w x 2 bridged @ 4ohms, and 100x4 @ 4ohms. I’ve ran both bridged and single-channeled.

They've been playing for at least 6 hours on at least 50watts, but never more than 100w @ 8ohms (rated nominal power). They've never played below 80hz w/a 30db slope, and only gone up to 1.2k for a few minutes just to see if there was a difference. Usually they've been between 80-315hz. 

I’m truly stuck. I’m not sure if the clay caused this problem, if application is the problem, or if I’ve somehow just gotten two bad speakers at once.

I trust your company very much and hope you are able to help me out with this issue."

Wish me luck with this. I'm gonna be sad if I'm out $170. However, if they turn out to be fine, someone here will be getting a good deal cause I'll be starting all over on midbass with a different type. 

*crosses fingers*


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

aw sorry just saw this. As far as I could tell there was no easy way to remove the phase plug on those so i didn't bother. I didn't feel like trying to destroy my new midbass's.

Good luck


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

durwood said:


> aw sorry just saw this. As far as I could tell there was no easy way to remove the phase plug on those so i didn't bother. I didn't feel like trying to destroy my new midbass's.
> 
> Good luck


No problem man. I need to get them tested if for nothing else, for peace of mind. 

At least now I'll know if the drivers are bad or if it's the install.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Well, here's the response I got:

"Hello James -

I'm sorry you are having problems getting your system to operate properly.

We have tested the Seas H1224 drivers you sent to us, and they are free of manufacturers defects.

As you know, these are not auto sound drivers. They have a qts of .34 and are designed primarily for bass-reflex (ported) enclosures. Running them free-air reduces their power handling substantially. You are bottoming them out. Proper sealed box alignment requires a true sealed enclosure.

The problem is your setup. The drivers are fine. The slapping is the voice coil bottoming out, the popping is faulty wiring of some sort.

I don't know how you would like to proceed, but we are not able to offer a refund on these units.

Best regards -

Adam for Madisound "


Looks like I'll be selling them here and buying different ones. Bummer, I was really looking forward to wailing!


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Sounds like a reasonable response.

I think you should be in the market for midbass drivers, not midrange woofers which are what the L18s essentially are. Look, you've got the TG9 right? That should handle your midrange frequencies fine. The L18's are simply not the best speaker for your application, IMO.

See what you can do about increasing your mounting depth to accomodate a high output midbass driver, like the Adire Extremis. I guarantee that you'll be happy with that driver.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Thanks. I wish you would've been around when I posted about trying to find a good midbass.

I can't get any larger (diameter) than that, but can squeeze maybe another .5" depth.

Any suggestions?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> Thanks. I wish you would've been around when I posted about trying to find a good midbass.
> 
> I can't get any larger (diameter) than that, but can squeeze maybe another .5" depth.
> 
> Any suggestions?


Well, the Extremis is technically a 6.5" driver. The knock is that it's deep. Something like 3.5" IIRC. Check the Adire web page.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Dunno if this has been tried but can you raise the HP xover somewhere over 100 with a steep slope, where excursion is very little and see if it does the noise at 60 watts?


Did you ever do this?


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## Guest (May 15, 2007)

ok i didn't read the whole thread, but here's my take fwiw.

The problem is _not_ the driver ... or at least, not a well-functioning H1224. There should be no problem using this driver as a dedicated, door-mounted midbass. And it sounds like other members have done so with success.

Sure, the Qts is ~0.34 ... kinda low for IB (or leaky door). BUT ... the Fs is 36Hz. Assuming your high-pass really is at 80Hz, you should be fine. The response of the driver over an octave above Fs is just not that strongly impacted by the quality factor of the resonance.

Plus, the driver has 6mm of linear (peak) travel, and 11mm of mechanical (peak) travel.

Now, _actual_ delivered power vs. _rated_ power is a tricky business for sure. How much power are you _really_ delivering to a complex impedance? Under what conditions were rated power measured? 

All I know is, a driver with 6mm/11mm of excursion, with an Fs of 36Hz, should make for a decent, dedicated door-mounted midbass operating above 80Hz ... with decent tuning, of course


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

werewolf said:


> ok i didn't read the whole thread, but here's my take fwiw.
> 
> The problem is _not_ the driver ... or at least, not a well-functioning H1224. There should be no problem using this driver as a dedicated, door-mounted midbass. And it sounds like other members have done so with success.
> 
> ...


But you don't know anything about his listening tastes, and that includes tuning. We all know that lots of people like overemphasized bass. We also know that lots of people like to crank it up. And from the sounds of his original complaint that started the thread, it sounds to me like he fits both descriptions. So I'm not surprised one bit that an L18 isn't cutting it at 70-80Hz for _his_ application. And with a TG9 already installed, I see little use for a woofer that's designed to handle such a wide frequency band.


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## Guest (May 15, 2007)

True, I don't know his listening taste. But i'd advocate at least a quick calculation about what SPL a pair of H1224 is capable of producing (at 80Hz, with the specified piston area and excursion) before suggesting a driver replacement.

How do we know an extremis will be satisfactory for his tastes?

I guess I'm just not convinced that the drivers are the problem ... again, assuming they aren't broken.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

werewolf said:


> True, I don't know his listening taste. But i'd advocate at least a quick calculation about what SPL a pair of H1224 is capable of producing (at 80Hz, with the specified piston area and excursion) before suggesting a driver replacement.
> 
> How do we know an extremis will be satisfactory for his tastes?
> 
> I guess I'm just not convinced that the drivers are the problem ... again, assuming they aren't broken.


What do you suspect is the problem then?

Moreover, I'm curious why you don't think the drivers are a problem. It's not like overdriving a speaker is uncommon...


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## Guest (May 15, 2007)

Just heard too many stories lately where people complain about drivers, only to find that the problem is : not isolating front/back waves, simple gain misalignments, simple crossover mistakes (amp vs. headunit, for example), un-intelligent use of EQ, intermittent wiring problem (wire/chassis short, for example), etc.

My only real point is this : I don't think the problem is the low-ish Qts, as suggested by madisound (given the low Fs). And without having read the whole thread (i admit, i'm lazy), i'm jusk asking if all installation/tuning avenues have been explored, leading to conclusion that the problem really is, in fact, limited volume displacement of the drivers?

Is all the data in, so to speak ... so that it really is time to spend more cash for larger displacement drivers?

Not arguing ... just askin'


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

werewolf said:


> Just heard too many stories lately where people complain about drivers, only to find that the problem is : not isolating front/back waves, simple gain misalignments, simple crossover mistakes (amp vs. headunit, for example), un-intelligent use of EQ, intermittent wiring problem (wire/chassis short, for example), etc.
> 
> My only real point is this : I don't think the problem is the low-ish Qts, as suggested by madisound (given the low Fs). And without having read the whole thread (i admit, i'm lazy), i'm jusk asking if all installation/tuning avenues have been explored, leading to conclusion that the problem really is, in fact, limited volume displacement of the drivers?
> 
> ...


Those are all possibilities, but without the car in front of us you kinda have to take him at his word. So given that those things have been taken care of, then I think the Madisound guy wasn't too far off the mark. Although I wouldn't blame the Qts quite as much as the output capabilities of the driver, but the two aren't unrelated...


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## Guest (May 15, 2007)

Here's an idea ... find a CD can play an 80Hz tone from both channels. Buy, borrow or steal a radio shack SPL meter.

A quick calculation (assuming i did the math right) suggests that a pair of L18's are capable of producing 102dB of _linear_ SPL at 80Hz (assuming no cabin gain ... decent assumption at 80Hz, the typical cabin gain corner freq) at 1 meter. The SPL number should be mechanically limited by the drivers to about 107dB.

Play that CD in the car, SPL meter in hand. Start raising the volume. If you hear no strange noises (cracks, pops) before that meter reads ... oh, say 105dB ... then I agree completely with MarkZ 

howzat?


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

interesting test....i think you should do it bikinpunk  im curious on the results


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

If they said the drivers are fine, and I see no reason why they would say that if they weren’t since they aren't covering them under warranty. Then that eliminates a major part of what problem might have been. Looks to be too much output demand since he stated it was sounding "muddy" when he cranked it up and that sounds like the 45 watts available where not enough and the driver distorted and also stressed the suspension to the limits slightly.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Mark, I'm not sure why you said there's no need for such a wide band? I originally only had them from 80-315hz. That doesn't seem that wide to me?

As far as everything else, I'm somewhat still not believing it's simply the wrong application. Although, it could be that I was expecting too much...I don't know. I only had the Rainbow comp mids to compare them to, and while running those as a midbass I never had any overexcursion issues, or bottoming issues. Now, I know the two drivers are not the same, but the rainbows did have quite a bit of power on them (100w+), but the sensitivity was about 91. I'm not a big fan of sensitivity ratings alone, but just wanted to throw that out there.

I honestly tried everything I could think of, and my doors are dead as a doornail, in addition to having plenty of separation from front/back waves. This leaves me only to HAVE to believe that the guy from Madisound was correct. However, like some have said, there are plenty who use this speaker in the door, and I'm pretty sure my doors are sealed just as good as at least ONE of those members. 

Now, this SPL test may work, but I honestly don't have the extra $50 to buy one of those things. If someone here would mail one to me, I'd cover the couple $$$ shipping just to do this test. 

Right now I'm searching for something else and hopefully will get good results. I'm tempted to go back to something geared more toward the car audio application.

Mark, I'll check on that mid you're suggesting. IIRC the mounting depth of this speaker is ~3.14"...so I'm not sure about the 3.5". 

Thanks for the feedback, all.


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## Guest (May 16, 2007)

W18NX drivers aren't designed for auto/door/IB either ... the Qts is also 0.34, but also with a relatively low Fs of 40Hz  A few people in these parts seem pretty happy with them in their doors, I think ... with proper tuning  Of course, the linear excursion is 7mm peak on the W18's ... but that's not a huge difference, compared to 6mm on the L18.

My only point being, the Madisound comment would apply equally well to the W18's.

I wonder what the volume displacement (linear, mechanical) was on your previous Rainbow drivers?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I've tried to find out the excursion on those drivers in the past and had no luck. 6spd sold them to me...maybe he can chime in.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> Mark, I'm not sure why you said there's no need for such a wide band? I originally only had them from 80-315hz. That doesn't seem that wide to me?


That's my entire point. Why would you use a driver that's good out to a couple kHz when all you need it is for 315Hz?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> That's my entire point. Why would you use a driver that's good out to a couple kHz when all you need it is for 315Hz?


Right, but from the reviews I read this speaker lacked in midrange but excels in midbass...that's why I chose this one.

I see what you're saying now, though.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Just for the record...
Don't get me wrong, the L18 is a good speaker. I don't mean to discourage anyone from buying them. I just don't understand why everyone is so hesitant to believe that the Madisound guy is right that you're bottoming it out.


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## Guest (May 16, 2007)

Some strange thinking here, in my opinion  I'll just summarize my thoughts :

- Don't discount the L18 because of a lowish Qts~0.34. If the Fs were closer to the intended operating range, I might agree. But with an Fs more than an octave _below_ the intended high-pass frequency, it's not a big negative. Remember ... even the W18 has a lowish Qts~0.34, and many have been wise to _not_ discount this driver as a dedicated, door-mounted midbass.

- Don't discount the L18 because of the recommended frequency range out to ~2.5Khz. The Extremis has a "usable" frequency range an octave _higher_ ... out to 5kHz, according to the spec sheet (thanks in part to it's low inductance), and we wouldn't discount this driver as a dedicated midbass.

What we need is a flowchart, if you will, to determine if the problem really is the inherent limitations of a well-functioning L18, a broken L18, an installation problem, or a tuning problem.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

werewolf said:


> Some strange thinking here, in my opinion  I'll just summarize my thoughts :
> 
> - Don't discount the L18 because of a lowish Qts~0.34. If the Fs were closer to the intended operating range, I might agree. But with an Fs more than an octave _below_ the intended high-pass frequency, it's not a big negative. Remember ... even the W18 has a lowish Qts~0.34, and many have been wise to _not_ discount this driver as a dedicated, door-mounted midbass.
> 
> ...


That flowchart is this entire thread, lol.

I trust them that it's not broken, really. They have no reason to lie to avoid warranty issues...I already knew that wouldn't be happening since I got clay on them. I just wanted to know for sure if it was application or driver error.


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## Guest (May 16, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> Just for the record...
> Don't get me wrong, the L18 is a good speaker. I don't mean to discourage anyone from buying them. I just don't understand why everyone is so hesitant to believe that the Madisound guy is right that you're bottoming it out.


here's why i tend to disount the madisound guy :

- his Qts argument, largely, does not apply (given the low Fs relative to the high-pass frequency, and other's success with L18 and W18 drivers in doors)
- the original poster says he didn't bottom out his Rainbow drivers (although we don't know if they had more than 22mm (p-p) mechanical excursion)
- a pair of L18's is capable of 107dB SPL (at 80Hz, 1 meter) before reaching mechanical excursion limits.

Now i haven't calculated whether or not the power applied was really capable of hitting 107dB, but's that why i advocated the simple SPL measurement.

I'm just advocating some _definitive_ experiments that will point unambiguously to the problem, before our friend spends more money


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

werewolf said:


> Some strange thinking here, in my opinion  I'll just summarize my thoughts :
> 
> - Don't discount the L18 because of a lowish Qts~0.34. If the Fs were closer to the intended operating range, I might agree. But with an Fs more than an octave _below_ the intended high-pass frequency, it's not a big negative. Remember ... even the W18 has a lowish Qts~0.34, and many have been wise to _not_ discount this driver as a dedicated, door-mounted midbass.
> 
> ...


I'm not discounting it because of the Qts. I'm merely suggesting the possibility that a 7" driver is being overdriven. It happens. The fact is that we're not in the car with the guy, so we have no idea what his listening preferences are. His system may be heavily biased towards strong bass. I think there's already some evidence in this thread to suggest it. The music he listens to may also really tax his midbass drivers. Hell, I've got some CDs that will destroy those things when I'm listening at full throttle. The notion that L18's are somehow immune to being overdriven is one that should be abandoned. He's exhausted all other avenues it seems, and he appears to be dead set against putting them back in the car. At what point do we suggest that he use a high output midbass driver?


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

I was having trouble with my L18s recently as well, but nothing like what he was experiencing. I am only running about 25W to them, whereas he is running about 100W I think? The RMS in a proper enclosure is 100W, this is an IB situation so the power handling is going to be less.

I recently played with my time delay and came to realize that it wasn't that I didn't have enough output, but that there was some cancelation. As soon as I started playing with my time delay, I was able to get more midbass out of these AND cross them over as low as 63HZ without popping or distortion because I wasn;t fighting the cancelation issue. I will say though that I have never heard any popping, but I felt like I was pushing them too hard or didn't have enough power. Before I had them set at 80HZ-180HZ @ 24 db. Now I have them at 63-180Hz @ 24 still with the 25W and now they sound the way they should. Very full and think, with nice quick accurate midbass. With 50W, I bet these things would sound even better, with a 100W, you better be careful with your gain settings. Just offering my experience.

I think your best bet is to first try to pop those speakers into a proper enclosure just to see if they sound ok or if the madisound guy was pulling your leg. I wonder if he was saying that the speakers themselves don't have any defects, or if they are actually OK-there is a difference. If they sound ok in a proper enclosure then all should be well with the speakers. Then you should look at your amplifer gain settings and tuning. 

I don't feel like browsing through this thread again, but would you describe the sound as a buzzing/distortion (as if something is still in the voicecoil) sound OR a popping/clapping sound (as in the voicecoil is bottoming out or tinsel snap or some other mechanical issue)? Has anyone actually bottomed these out?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

The power NEVER reached above 80w @ 4ohms. I couldn't get higher than that before it started making that popping sound. On top of that, in the doors the sound was much worse.

I posted a video of the sound, but to describe it again; it sounded like something was hitting, like a lead was smacking or something. I just don't know what to do at this point. 

I’m uneasy about putting them back in the doors. I honestly would like to just give up on these and move on. 

Mark, I do like bass, but in all honesty these weren’t giving me any sort of bass output before I got the sound. The rainbows simply outperformed even at lower volume. The power was higher, but I never bottomed them out. I asked on ca about the xmax and someone said he believes it’s 2.5 or 3.5mm (one way). 

I just don’t know, guys. I’m really stuck, and I feel like there’s nothing else I can do at this point. I changed phase, I played with x-over (even had them between 80-100 once), EQ, everything. Nothing worked. I could’ve lived with the nominal output, and when I got ready to do so, I put them back in the doors…problem worsened.

I’m considering buying a set of Dayton rs 180’s and seeing how it goes with that. The Qts is .40 with Fs the same. 

I’m still looking around but many many people have had luck with the Daytons as well. I suppose I can just keep trying. 

?


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> The power NEVER reached above 80w @ 4ohms. I couldn't get higher than that before it started making that popping sound. On top of that, in the doors the sound was much worse.
> 
> I posted a video of the sound, but to describe it again; it sounded like something was hitting, like a lead was smacking or something. I just don't know what to do at this point.
> 
> ...


Good idea to go with the Daytons. Affordable, easy to sell, more power from your amp and they should be great for the range you will use them at.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> The power NEVER reached above 80w @ 4ohms. I couldn't get higher than that before it started making that popping sound. On top of that, in the doors the sound was much worse.


Just curious as to how you know that they only reached 80W? I'm not trying discount what you are saying, but I myself want to know how much power these will take before they crap out in an IB situation.

I still vote for throwing them into a box and see if you can still get them to bottom out or make that same noise. If they still do it at lower power levels it could be suspension misalignment or maybe the surround came unglued or the spider is unglued. Those are just some of my thoughts although the Madisound tech seems to think that they are in proper functioning order.

Now get those built into computer speakers and good luck with findign your new midbasses


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

durwood said:


> Just curious as to how you know that they only reached 80W? I'm not trying discount what you are saying, but I myself want to know how much power these will take before they crap out in an IB situation.


8ohm, not 4 ohm like I said:

Tested with DMM & 100hz test tone @ 0db. 

For passenger's side 21.8v. So ~ 60watts @ 8ohms.
For Driver's side 24.7v. ~77watts @ 8ohms.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

These actually may be sold. If someone can get them to work, that's great. I'm just giving up. I'm sure I can let them go for a pretty decent deal, with full-return if you have the same problem. 

I'm hunting for another midbass right now. Looking at DLS ur6 in classifieds right now.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Just got off the phone with Adam from Madisound. The speakers are fine. He actually sent me a link that to Zaph’s site with info on putting them with a seas tweeter. In his words “it’s a very high quality setup”. 

He also suggested a couple other drivers to use in the car. All with a high-ish Qts (.5 +). 

FWIW, he said the Seas neo tweets were probably one of the best they sell. 

Super nice guy. Very informative, and knowledgeable about the products. Helped out a ton just talking with him for only 5 minutes. Adam @ Madisound FTW!


Here's the woofers he suggested for car sound application:
Peerless 830513

Peerless M18WN19


Morel MW166

He tried to give me a broad range. He said those are the only ones he could think of that he would recommend for midbass in car. At least he was honest.


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

would it be very difficult to just test them in a sealed enclosure of some sort and watch what they do at different power levels?

I'm gonna send you a pm...


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

In all honesty I just don't have the time or extra materials (wood) to make a small box for them right now. I'm getting married in less than a month and need to concentrate on that among trying to get new midbasses.


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

Don't sell your mids just yet... I haven't read the whole thread but can you describe the problem a little better? Is the driver sounding distorted or "bloated" at higher output levels? You sure the problem isn't in the upper midbass region?
Do you have a test tone disk?

Leo


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

300Z said:


> Don't sell your mids just yet... I haven't read the whole thread but can you describe the problem a little better? Is the driver sounding distorted or "bloated" at higher output levels? You sure the problem isn't in the upper midbass region?
> Do you have a test tone disk?
> 
> Leo


Ahh, if you would just read!  

In short, there is a "popping" or "slapping" sound going on. It almost sounds like a tinsel lead hits (that's not it). 

I've bp'd the speakers even down to 80-100hz and still had the same trouble. When I say I tried everything I can think of, I mean it...and then some.


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

Ok, have you tried bridging the amp and give the driver more power? The tinsel lead noise could be the amp clipping.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

I think he has too much power already. They are rated for 100W in a good enclosure, now derate the power handling because it's an IB. I hypothesize recommended power in an IB situation is 25-50Wrms.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

300Z said:


> Ok, have you tried bridging the amp and give the driver more power? The tinsel lead noise could be the amp clipping.


Yep. The more power I give it, the more the sound starts, which pushes me to believe the Madisound guy.


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

Something isn't right... When I had my RS180 it took about 80w using a 80hz tone for them to make weird noises.


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

In any case, the drivers he suggested are a downgrade from what you already have IMHO. What's the slope on the crossover? And do you have a test tone CD?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

lol...

slope was 30db. 

Test tone used was 100hz.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

300Z said:


> In any case, the drivers he suggested are a downgrade from what you already have IMHO.


That's possible. But they're different, and it will help him to determine whether or not his L18's were bad or not. Certainly a cheaper way of going about things than buying another pair of L18's...


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> That's possible. But they're different, and it will help him to determine whether or not his L18's were bad or not. Certainly a cheaper way of going about things than buying another pair of L18's...


Exactly why I'm looking at them.


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

Beyond the tinsel lead noise what's wrong with the sound? Have you tried switching the phase?

As for the test tone CD, try listening to multiple frequency's and see if there are any peaks or dips that are causing the drivers to sound "muddy"... Also, where's your sub crossed at? Try switching the phase on the sub too, try crossing your sub at 60hz, 50hz while maintaining the 80hz HP on the midbass.


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

If you just want a cheap set of decent midbasses try the Dayton DA175. I got those as a temp midbass while I waited for something else and the DA175 had better midbass than the RS180.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Im considering selling my polk sr6500 mids which work great in a car and are overall great speakers with a nice exteneded freq response. Time to give these ca21re a shot. If youre interested PM me an offer.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

tyroneshoes said:


> Im considering selling my polk sr6500 mids which work great in a car and are overall great speakers with a nice exteneded freq response. Time to give these ca21re a shot. If youre interested PM me an offer.


Be willing to do a trade? I saw your "feeler" post for these and then you said you might be willing to do a trade. Still feel that way?

PM me if you'd like.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

I just saw your video now for the first time, IMO it sounds like every other blown speaker I've ever heard.


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