# Found My Tweeter- Vifa XT25 SC90



## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

After much reading, trials and tribulations I finally found a tweeter that sounds good for my front door component setup. 

There are so many opinions- off axis / on axis, bright, harsh, too laid back, etc. 
The other posts on this site were very helpful- i.e. the various tweeter auditions. 
Unfortunately there are so many variables that it is almost impossible to predict how a given tweeter will sound in your vehicle.
-location in vehicle (relative to listener AND woofer)
-vehicle installation and cabin dynamics
-crossover type
-tweeter attenuation
-source and amplification
-musical preferences
-recording quality
-subjective listener tastes and hearing
For myself (arguably) the front tweeter is the most important device to "get right" in order to achieve a sound that is pleasing to the driver. 
Therefore the following review / comparison is an attempt to assist others on the quest for a good tweeter. 
My setup includes a component 6-3/4 in. woofer (Silver Flute) mounted in the lower front door panels, an Alpine SPR-60C crossover network (the only item from the component set that I still use), the crossover frequency is 3100 Hz, first order low pass and second order high pass, -2db attenuation setting. Each door sees 100 watts RMS. 
Fortunately the manufacturer of my vehicle (Toyota) put a lot of thought into the location of the tweeters. They are mounted in the upper front of each door panel, slightly below and rearward of the sail panels. The surface where they are mounted is angled slightly upward and rearward. I estimated the driver's tweeter to be about 45 degrees off axis to my left ear and the passenger door tweeter to be about 5 degrees off axis to my right ear. This allowed them to optimize the sound quality while using inexpensive components. So much so that I am on my second head unit, third set of tweeters, second set of mid woofers and second subwoofer and ~ $1500.00 later I am finally able to have sound quality that is better than the factory install in all aspects- bass, midrange, high frequencies, imaging, and cleaner sound at much higher volume levels
The key to this (all along, in hindsight) was the tweeter. 
I finally arrived at the Vifa XT25 SC90 ring radiator. After all that I had read about these tweeters, I was concerned about them being able to sound decent "off axis". There is lots of debate and ambiguity about what this means (specifically). Given my setup outlined above, these tweeters sound excellent, create a nice stage and provide the clarity and detail I am happy with.
The original Alpine SPR tweeters were completely horrible- although they are ring radiator drivers, they sounded metallic, harsh and irritating despite many attempts to "work with them". With the right program material, they sounded awesome. Unfortunately this was a very small percentage of my music library / listening material. 
I then bought some Vifa NE19 VTA-04 tweeters, 3/4" aluminum neo domes. 
Although these sounded much better than the original Alpines, the metallic dome (to me) provided great detail but was still harsh sounding with a significant amount of my program material. Lots of songs sounded amazing but many CDs or songs on the radio would sound distorted, harsh and metallic despite my best efforts to adjust and work with these as well. Despite musical tastes / preferences I would imagine anyone who heard these particular CDs or songs would say that it sounded horrible- and it did Something I could not live with in a 1500.00 aftermarket install. 
So I began to research some more. I was leaning to silk or textile dome type tweeters as a way to smooth out the harshness I was hearing with the aluminum domes. 
I then read about the XT25s and lots of people liked them, many did not, but I kept reading about smoothness, and smooth sounding off axis. 
I installed them yesterday and have spent hours listening and tuning. Although they are not perfect, they are very nice sounding drivers. More importantly, every song that was previously harsh and distorted sounding has now been made acceptable and listenable, if not pretty decent sounding, by these tweeters. They play cleanly at the highest volumes as well. 
Granted, there is a certain amount of clarity that was lost when comparing to the aluminum domes. When those speakers were "on" with certain recordings that did not bring out their wort qualities, they were amazing. Unfortunately too much of my music brought out the worst in them and they were un-listenable. The XT25s are for me the perfect compromise. While they do not reach the highest levels of clarity, they manage to sound really good with all of my music. 
There might be tweeters available that can do each- achieve extreme high levels of clarity without exaggerating or revealing harshness or distortion found on many recordings- but to me it seems like it would be very difficult. For now at least I am happy for the time being.


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## Micksh (Jul 27, 2011)

Totally agree...I have these tweeters in my vehicle, and I must say, what a value! They are some of the best sounding tweeters (at least in a reasonable price range I suppose, since I haven't heard any of the "big boys" like the Scans, etc) out there! I can say I have owned or done installs with such tweeters as the old Oz Audio "superman" tweeters, and also the MB Quart QM25HC, and I like these equally well....all at a price point of what, $24 and change each? What a deal...glad you like them too.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

link to these tweeters?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Vifa XT25SC90-04 1" Dual Ring Radiator Tweeter 264-1014
They are nice tweeters for the price. I still think you need to be directly on axis or close to it so they don't roll off too soon. Some people don't like an extended top end though. Not my cup of tea because I don't like having details hidden by a tweeter that's too forgiving but I still give credit where credit's due.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

As an update to this saga, the more music I played the more I heard the distortion, ringing and harshness apparent in every set of tweeters I had used since replacing the original Alpine SPR-60C did surface in the Vifa XT25. 

In hindsight the cause of these SQ issues is the Alpine passive crossover that is included in the SPR 60C. 

The Vifa NE19VTA is probably a great tweeter, as is the Vifa XT25. The Alpine crossover is a piece of garbage and the final straw. 

Although the SPR woofer lacked midbass, I am now convinced the tweeter is pretty decent based on my findings that the SQ issues are derived from the poor execution of the crossover. 

Rather than build a decent crossover I decided to purchase a decent matched set of components with a robust crossover network. 

I installed my new set of Focal 165 V30s last night and I will post a review once I have listened to them for a while. Immediate impressions are quite favorable to say the least. 

While it is quite possible to build a nice set of car components using DIY drivers and crossovers, I do not believe the value is there unless you like the hobby. 

I just priced some components to build a nice set of crossovers and it approached $110.00, not including PC boards, enclosures and additional wiring. 
When you start adding the cost of a pair of woofers and tweeters, plus shipping, the total for a semi decent passive set easily approaches $300.00. 

I paid $378.00 for my new set of Focal 165 V30s. So far it is a no brainer to go with a well engineered set of components and crossovers IMHO.


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## bmiller1 (Mar 7, 2010)

Avanti, you keep mentioning harshness and brightness with the music you listen to. Would you mind giving a few examples? I have similar issue and was considering a similar solution.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Vifa XT25SC90-04 1" Dual Ring Radiator Tweeter 264-1014
> They are nice tweeters for the price. I still think you need to be directly on axis or close to it so they don't roll off too soon. Some people don't like an extended top end though. Not my cup of tea because I don't like having details hidden by a tweeter that's too forgiving but I still give credit where credit's due.


Erin recently did some polar testing with a RR and a dome of similar model lineage....

The RR myth was pretty much debunked. Mine are somewhat off-axis (same vifa tweet) and I dig them.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

avanti1960 said:


> As an update to this saga, the more music I played the more I heard the distortion, ringing and harshness apparent in every set of tweeters I had used since replacing the original Alpine SPR-60C did surface in the Vifa XT25.
> 
> In hindsight the cause of these SQ issues is the Alpine passive crossover that is included in the SPR 60C.
> 
> ...


and that's why we call it DIY 

Many of us have not touched a passive crossover in 20 years.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

bmiller1 said:


> Avanti, you keep mentioning harshness and brightness with the music you listen to. Would you mind giving a few examples? I have similar issue and was considering a similar solution.


 b-miller: 

Sure. Basically it's any music where the bands play with distortion for effect, they add in some distortion as a way to make their own sound, lots of indie rock bands do this. The problem is that when your speakers already have distortion and you play music with "intentional" distortion it becomes absolutely worse than fingernails on a chalk board or biting down on a fork. 
Some examples-

Sonic Youth, "Daydream Nation" and many other titles (lots of distorted guitar).
The band- Fuc*** Up, "Hello My Name is David" Very raspy vocals. Absolutely not listenable on the Alpines. 
Flaming Lips, "Embryonic"

Even some pop songs brought out the worst in these speakers -

Coldplay "Paradise" . 

I have never owned a set of speakers that were so bad. Good riddance.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

chad said:


> and that's why we call it DIY
> 
> Many of us have not touched a passive crossover in 20 years.


I believe you! 

I just did not want to go active. Way too much in parts and labor at this point. Thanks!


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## bmiller1 (Mar 7, 2010)

avanti1960 said:


> b-miller:
> 
> Sure. Basically it's any music where the bands play with distortion for effect, they add in some distortion as a way to make their own sound, lots of indie rock bands do this. The problem is that when your speakers already have distortion and you play music with "intentional" distortion it becomes absolutely worse than fingernails on a chalk board or biting down on a fork.
> Some examples-
> ...


Gotcha. Yeah, the distortion thing is what I'm having issues with as well. It's not as bad as Alpines apparently were. (That being said I had Type R and Type S before and couldn't wait to get rid of them.) But, the harshness on some songs has made it to where I simply won't listen to that CD any more. I'm interested to hear your take on the Focals. I was looking at those. Particularly the mid bass output.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

bmiller1 said:


> Gotcha. Yeah, the distortion thing is what I'm having issues with as well. It's not as bad as Alpines apparently were. (That being said I had Type R and Type S before and couldn't wait to get rid of them.) But, the harshness on some songs has made it to where I simply won't listen to that CD any more. I'm interested to hear your take on the Focals. I was looking at those. Particularly the mid bass output.


After a few hours of listening, the midbass on the 165 V30s is already stronger and warmer than the Silver Flute drivers that were broken in- and those were satisfactory to me and worlds better than the SPR60C. 

Focal has sound frequency plots on their website- and I believe them to be accurate. 
The 165 V30s have a slight dip just after 200 Hz or so which makes them warmer sounding than the more expensive KR series woofers and they are all about equal roll off below 100 Hz. 
The V30s are - 2-1/2 db down at 80 hz (the silver flutes were 5db down @ 80hz per the Zaph audio analysis). They are also - 7-1/2 db down @ 60 Hz, the silver flutes were shown -10db down @ 60hz. All of this is comparative- if you have the HPF set to 80hz or so like me, the midbass is quite excellent in these Focals so far. Again, better than my DIY silver flutes which were already pretty decent.


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## bmiller1 (Mar 7, 2010)

Thanks for the info, man. Good to know. I don't have a whole lot of concern with below 120Hz or so, as that's where my subs are crossed at. I know, I know, I don't get too much agreement with that but, they blend well, provide some meat to the midbass and sounds great to me. I'm tuned in to your take.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

avanti1960 said:


> Focal has sound frequency plots on their website- and I believe them to be accurate.


Those plots are likely infinite baffle n an anechoic environment. once they are mounted in the car those FR graphs will be radically different.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

I use these in my bedroom speakers (and tried the hot deals xt25s) and found with the right eq, any of the off axis issues can be fixed or band-aided somewhat in a car. At home theyre just excellent tweeters at any price range if implemented well.










Simple design yet one of the most pleasurable speakers I ever made.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

chad said:


> Erin recently did some polar testing with a RR and a dome of similar model lineage....
> 
> The RR myth was pretty much debunked. Mine are somewhat off-axis (same vifa tweet) and I dig them.


Fair enough. I still don't think they're that great off axis and others have said the same thing. Maybe I'm just used to the sparkle of a good metal dome or cone that the Vifa RR's don't have. You know, that siblance


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

chad said:


> Erin recently did some polar testing with a RR and a dome of similar model lineage....
> 
> The RR myth was pretty much debunked. Mine are somewhat off-axis (same vifa tweet) and I dig them.


As is shown on this page:
HTGuide Forum - View Single Post - Vifa XT25 Tweeter

This is however the big flange XT25 tweeter. One thing I noticed is that the tweeter seems to be mounted a bit deeper on the big flange models compared to the small flange SC90. Also true with the scan speak ring radiators with the big flange models. I wonder why.


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

IMO, the right way to run DIY drivers is to have no physical crossovers. You need a DSP with active crossover, but once you have it the you can play with crossover frequency, time alignment, level matching and more. 378.00 does seems like an amazing price for those Focals. I thought they're more expensive. It still can benefit from going active though.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

one thing to think about, every single one of the millions of speaker systems in production, that use a passive crossover, stated as and idea and a "DIY project." They don't fall off of trees complete.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

chad, do you have a picture of your XT25 in the sails (I believe)?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Here ya go....


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## JWAT15 (Mar 6, 2011)

i just picked up a set today! brand new 50$! have no idea what to run them with or how much power.. xover point ect.. any input greatly appreciated . just gunna play around till i find a sweet spot for my ears then post a review!


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## 8675309 (Jan 8, 2007)

I use a set of the 3/4 version and they are great. Chad mentioned about the passives not beeing complete. It would cost way to much to build a passive as it needs to be to provide the speakers what they need. My simple 2 ways with the 3/4 vifas use a total of 18 parts per crossover for a 1st order woofer 2nd order tweeter. By the time you add notch filters, imp eq's for both drivers, and pads it adds up. If you did this for a comp set off the shelf you would have an average comp set @ $350 cost $600


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

JWAT15 said:


> i just picked up a set today! brand new 50$! have no idea what to run them with or how much power.. xover point ect.. any input greatly appreciated . just gunna play around till i find a sweet spot for my ears then post a review!


starting point is 2.5k with a 12db slope

My home audio designed passives are 3.18hz 12db but that was what worked best with 4" rs125s

As far as power, keep the amp gains pretty low and raise the level prior using a line driver/balancer, if not being used then use gain.

These are sweet tweets, even better on axis. In fact Id say one of the best on-axis tweets your can get IMO.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

I had them crossed @ 3100 Hz, 12db based on the need to cross my woofer at that point to avoid breakup. I'm betting they would have sounded even better crossed around 4Khz.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

I had them at 2.2k 24db and they did very well.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

Wow really thinking about picking these up considering the reviews.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

chad said:


> Here ya go....


Thanks for the inspiration, finished my pods:


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## peegeesee (Dec 19, 2008)

avanti,

I am using the same XT25 mounted on the A-Pillar. Fed with 100W per tweets active crossed at 2Khz. 

i noticed that although the mid is good, the top end is lacking and not crisp enough for my liking. I attribute this to the aiming, where if aimed facing me, crispiness is there but staging is more to the driver side. facing each other, the staging is good (centred). 

i have played around with the aiming and cut-off frequency but still the same. 

Care to share your aiming position? I am still new in this game so be patient and am just wondering whether this is the XT's actual characteristic and no amount of tweaking can change this OR something wrong altogether.

thanks.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

These things don't have the car audio bite of many ****box tweets, they are a bit more laid back with a gentle rise on the tippy top, if you are looking for eye-blinking "crisp" then you have the wrong tweet.


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## peegeesee (Dec 19, 2008)

thanks chad. noticed that. it's smooth. i liked 95% of it anyway. only certain recordings esp. rock concert the top end a bit muted. my current fav recording, eric burdon and the brian augher band's access all areas was perfect to my ears.not looking for the normal 'boom-boom chisss-chisss' sound either. just wish the cymbals would be more pronounced. 

i don't have the luxury to get the type of tweeter i want. just have to make do of what is affordable at that time. 

today, playing around with the aiming, facing each other, they sounded wonderful. improved a bit. did getting them closer to the windshield helped?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

the windshield will act as a waveguide, a ****ty one but a waveguide none the less.


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## peegeesee (Dec 19, 2008)

ha ha. whatever the medium, an improvement is an improvement. 

loved the sail install. would loved to do for m xt but my sail panel is too close to my ears.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

I love these tweeters so far. Glad I tried them. Chad, where did you cross them over if I may ask?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I cant remember if they are at 2.5 or 3.15 now. I believe the latter at 12dB/oct.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

chad said:


> I cant remember if they are at 2.5 or 3.15 now. I believe the latter at 12dB/oct.


Thanks, I tried 2.5, 3.15 and settled on 4K at 24 dB/oct. Maybe my protective cap of 22 uF has something to do with why I like the higher crossover? If I cross lower I have troubles with some female focals, it sounds a bit strange/double/shaky around 3K. Even after revisiting T/A and EQ and different slopes I could not get the proper integration.
I got the Vifa's to try lower crossover points but forgot about the protective cap possibly beeing crossed to high for these for this purpose. Does that make sense?
I do like their sound though, maybe it's the aiming but I like them better than my previous soft domes (Hertz Space One).


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

peegeesee-

sorry for the late response-
my XTs were located in the stock door positions foe an '11 Toyota RAV4- 
(see the 4th pic from the top- Detailed Front Speaker Installation w/ pics - Toyota RAV4 Forums : RAV4World.com )

There is some upward and rearward angularity in the mounting- I would say that they fire towards the opposite headrest. 

Some have said that they sounded too warm off axis like this but I thought they were fine- actually enhanced the imaging and sound stage by not making the driver's side tweeter so dominating in the mix.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

avanti1960 said:


> I believe you!
> 
> I just did not want to go active. Way too much in parts and labor at this point. Thanks!



Get an HU that does the work for you, like the Pioneer 800/880 PRS. Hang the mic, run auto eq/ta, and let it select the crossover points etc. Then go in and play with the settings to learn.

The XT25s are very underrated. Very cheap and very good. Compare the XT25 specs to the HAT L1Pro.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

snaimpally said:


> The XT25s are very underrated. Very cheap and very good. Compare the XT25 specs to the HAT L1Pro.


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## slade1274 (Mar 25, 2008)

I know you shaved the guide flange down to accommodate your install.... I had a pair once that I played with and successfully removed it and it was a direct snap in for an install I did for a Mini Clubman. The tweeter looked like it's baby brother when the flange was removed, except it still had the plastic shroud and heat sink out back. I wish I took pictures of them when I did it.

Any gut feel as to how that would affect performance vs. leaving the flange and trimming?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Got my hand on these for 40$/pair new. Have them on break in atm, see if they're better than my current DX25. Might not be able to cross them as low as the DX25 (1750Hz/24dB). Looks pretty sweet and definetly sound different than the DX version, need to make a A-B test side by side to make a statement which sounds better. Keeping the flange though...


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