# 2018 Subaru WRX budget build



## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

So I finally get the chance to throw coin down on my dream car. (Test drive? No, that's not necessary.) Once I stopped lusting over my fresh out of highschool dreams it hit me like a ton of bricks... Wow the stock speakers in this car image so poorly. The OEM stage is 32 feet long and 4 feet wide and it sounds like a ****ty little bandpassed speaker is playing from 20 feet in front of the windshield. It's like listening to music playing in the background of a telephone call. You can't even begin to appreciate how bad they sound because of the stage.











First step see what we can do with the stock speakers. I started with a cheapo Dayton 408, power to the OE speakers, and a 12W3 to fill it out. Still without and mic + REW I started with a base 2ms delay drivers to passengers side and 8ms tweeter to woofer. I'm able to place the stage on the dash by putting 1ms between the tweeters and mids and 1.75 between the left and right channels. A DSP can do wonders, can't wait till the computer autotunes for me. But now that it images well playing at anything resembling a fun listening volume and the speakers break up. It was a fun experiment, but time to get serious, budget serious!

Morel CCWR254
Revelators
IDMax12
Soundstream Picasso Nano 650.1 and 640.5 (The cheapest amps you can find)
I am considering throwing in a tweeter, but for now it's got plenty up top.


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The Morels fit very nicely in the OEM tweeter location, which leaves a bit to be desired. The driver mounts like 6 to 8 inches away from the windshield and is missing out on some possible windshield horn loading. Or there is plenty of room to mount a tweeter right with it, but if I'm firing mid and tweeter at the windshield I think I'd want the mid closer to the windshield than the tweeter? Either way I'm eventually going to hog the plastic out and make a proper baffle for the morels. What does this mean? Does it mean the speaker is practically hanging from fishing wire being held on with two screws to a delrin mount? Yes. The stock grills just mutilated the sound coming from the speakers. After driving around with them off for a few weeks I decided to just upholster them.
























































The ScanSpeaks fit wonderfully in the doors. Basic 1" MDF ring (the baffle is 3/4") mounted on closed cell foam. Had to take just a little bit off the door cards to get them to sit comfortably over the top of the revelators.




























IDMax 12 in a ~2cu sealed box. At some point I realized I don't give a **** about trunk space and this is my dream build so I've got an IDMAX 15 that I'll run inverted in a prefab box. Once I find a place where I can construct a baffle I'll swap to IB. #Apartment life #COVID life #Anyone in SD? Worst case is I build it in a parking lot with a couple 18v tools, but I'd like to avoid that. Since I'm limited to 10 pictures here is a shot of the 15.












Still gotta get a mic so I can actually see what's going on. It sounds great but there is still lots of untidiness from the combs and from the doors resonating. I wanted to avoid CLD + MLV and only rely on CCF for rattles - but that doesn't seem likely. Besides, what's the harm in doing just the doors good? I'll add some CLD for the resonance and isolated MLV to block the wave.


Thanks for listening!


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Looks like a great car and a really nice system. Two comments.

1. You probably want to remove those MDF rings and replace them with some UHMW plastic or similar as the MDF will swell and turn to dust in a damp door environment. It’s not a matter of if they will fail but when.

2. It looks like that car has a trunk. Why don’t you run a pair of 12s or 15s infinite baffle, which uses the trunk as the enclosure? The IDMAX subs are known to work very well IB and the AE SBP series is probably the top IB driver out there though there are many that work well IB. You’ll need to seal the trunk from the cabin so the rear wave and front waves don’t meet and cause cancelation. IB provides deep bass and bass that plays pretty high to easily meet midbass so you get very good, very clean bass. Because the enclosure is so large and doesn’t help the suspension, you can’t put a lot of power, usually 200-300w is all that is needed per driver and you’ll still get lots of bass. Maybe not enough for a bass head but short of that, plenty for most anyone else.

And your car isn’t ever going to be quiet so noise abatement should probably be focused on rattles and noises.

Hope you’re enjoying your system, should be fun when you get the system up to the level of that car’s performance.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Thanks. It's certainly nothing compared to what the majority of people do on this site! I hit the MDF with some scotch guard but kind of expected this would be the case, I may cut up a plastic pair when I deaden the doors. What thickness should I use for the UHMW plastic? As for the subs that's the plan, "just" need to build a baffle. 

Why not buy a second 12? I couldn't stomach the investment and it potentially not reaching my goals. So I grabbed the 15 knowing I can double up and spread that load oh so deliciously. I figured I could fill the trunk with a gross prefab until the time came to create a baffle. Living in an apartment really limits my ability to work with larger pieces of material.

I've hot rodded a few cars in my day but I snagged the 6 year 100k warranty on this pupper... so I'll have to respect the limits of my bank account and throw money at the car in a safer way. For now. 😁


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

You may want to keep your eyes open for a track saw on Craigslist. I have an expensive track saw from Festool and I love it. With a track saw you can make fine furniture with tools that are easily stored in a closet. If you made me choose between my real nice table saw and my Festool track saw, well, I’m going to need help carrying that beast of a table saw out. A router against a straight edge can also give you very nice cut edges so that is a slightly cheaper option as well. Even better if you combined both and used the router with the track for the saw.


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

Nice car! I have a 2018 WRX and previously had a 2015 WRX. I've gone through a ton of setups with both vehicles. I did the exact same thing with my grilles to prevent the mids from getting muffled. I also have a IDMAX but it's a 12", haven't tried it out yet, been too lazy to swap subs out. Lol. 

If you have any ideas or questions that I can help with, just let me know. Are you in San Diego?

































































Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Nice car (nice color...CWP owner here also). I like what you did with the grills. Is that speaker cloth?


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## draft6969 (Aug 4, 2009)

Soooooooo am I hearing that you have a 12 IDMAX laying around? I need a D2


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

dgage said:


> You may want to keep your eyes open for a track saw on Craigslist. I have an expensive track saw from Festool and I love it. With a track saw you can make fine furniture with tools that are easily stored in a closet. If you made me choose between my real nice table saw and my Festool track saw, well, I’m going to need help carrying that beast of a table saw out. A router against a straight edge can also give you very nice cut edges so that is a slightly cheaper option as well. Even better if you combined both and used the router with the track for the saw.


I think a router, a table, and a track might be in my future.



beerdrnkr said:


> Nice car! I have a 2018 WRX and previously had a 2015 WRX. I've gone through a ton of setups with both vehicles. I did the exact same thing with my grilles to prevent the mids from getting muffled. I also have a IDMAX but it's a 12", haven't tried it out yet, been too lazy to swap subs out. Lol.
> 
> If you have any ideas or questions that I can help with, just let me know. Are you in San Diego?


Radical! Love the second iteration of the tweeter mount, very smooth! I am in SD! I'd love to get a listen to your setup once the pandemic passes. I'd be interested to learn more about the baffle you made! It looks like it's bolted to the false floor, that can't be the case?



Frequentflyer said:


> Nice car (nice color...CWP owner here also). I like what you did with the grills. Is that speaker cloth?


Hell yeah, white is so plain, but also so regal. Yeah just some speaker cloth and contact cement.



draft6969 said:


> Soooooooo am I hearing that you have a 12 IDMAX laying around? I need a D2


It's a D4. Get those ohms up like you know you want to.  Either the W3 or the IDmax will serve apartment duty, the other must go!


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## draft6969 (Aug 4, 2009)

Dam. I have a D2 and need another one. I would have loved to get it from you 😥


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

draft6969 said:


> Soooooooo am I hearing that you have a 12 IDMAX laying around? I need a D2


I do, can't remember if it's D2 or not. I've been dying to hear how it sounds. 



opekone said:


> I think a router, a table, and a track might be in my future.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






draft6969 said:


> Dam. I have a D2 and need another one. I would have loved to get it from you


Where are you located? 

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## Bobby_Jones (Apr 9, 2020)

Nice build. I'm running a Precicion Power ion in my WRX, which is the same thing as the Picasso. Running a sealed Infinity Ref1200 but looking for more. Thinking of trying an 8 inch ported.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

My CLD arrived today! Naturally I went to the hardware store to get some fiberglass panels and lo and behold it's a special order item at every store in town. I suppose I should be using amazon for everything anyway. Since patience is my enemy I went ahead and got going with the CLD. I used 10lb total, not too bad for a pair of doors. Doing more reading it seems mlv at 1lb/sqft isn't that different than CLD at 1lb/sqft for blocking sound... so I'll save the MLV for the trunk baffle. I may look for some CCF to stick between the cards and the panels or I may order some fiberglass (anyone have experience with polyester absorption tiles, how are they to work with and cut?) Maybe I'll be lazy and just let it ride until after the baffle gets finished, besides it sounds good now so I wont complain. My 18v router should be here soon... the parking lots are calling to me. I suppose I should start pulling the trunk apart and planning my mounts.

But all this thinking about insulation materials is getting my mind juices flowing!


What are the cool kids using for a DAC nowadays? Don't tell me it's a Helix.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

You would be very happy with that single ID Max 15 in a decent IB baffle.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

dcfis said:


> You would be very happy with that single ID Max 15 in a decent IB baffle.


I think you are right. I can't recall the thread but someone on here was explaining their various IB projects and how they enjoyed a single 15 over 2 15s. They thought it had to do with trunk space and the WRX does not have a large trunk.  The single woofer will look so ugly and sad all alone in the baffle.

Love the cat that matches your avatar. That's too cute.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

The dash is a hollow cavity of death. I cried a little when I saw this really simple path to run the tweeter wire. The one I chose was not so simple. Oh well. Next time.

Filled er up with a bunch of fiberglass. Had to use a bag to contain the glass from falling down into the dash, but left the top open, then stuffed the hole and back up under the dash as well.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Looks like the same wire i use. Can't remember if it's knu or sky high.

You are right depends on the trunk size. When i went from one to two i think it moved up the frequency resonance a bit. I do like it for what i listen to. Sounds like a real kick drum in tone and attack. I know there is more to it than that but i personally don't care for tons of low bass like most people. Does nothing but fatten and round it off while producing innumerable rattles to chase down.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

opekone said:


> The dash is a hollow cavity of death. I cried a little when I saw this really simple path to run the tweeter wire. The one I chose was not so simple. Oh well. Next time.
> 
> Filled er up with a bunch of fiberglass. Had to use a bag to contain the glass from falling down into the dash, but left the top open, then stuffed the hole and back up under the dash as well.
> 
> ...


Here's my plan. Also got a tweeter mount I designed going in the space in front of the midrange.


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## .69077 (Aug 24, 2013)

Definitely gonna follow this closely. And I know what you mean by dream car, Ive owned 10 Subarus, including a 1999 2.5RS I bought brand new, a BRZ and Forester Turbo. But the STi was always on my bucket list. So being this was the last year of the EJ engine I had to pull the trigger on my 2020 STI Series White. The Bilstein suspension out of the Type RA didn't hurt as a selling point either.


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## .69077 (Aug 24, 2013)

opekone said:


> I've hot rodded a few cars in my day but I snagged the 6 year 100k warranty on this pupper... so I'll have to respect the limits of my bank account and throw money at the car in a safer way. For now. 😁


Exact same plan I have, SAS Gold warranty for 6/100k.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

The most recent upgrade is a boring one to see but it has made one of the biggest differences in sound. Unfortunately, I changed a lot of things changed at once and was far too lazy to try some A-B-A-C type comparisons. A brand new source unit, a new DSP, and completely different gain staging. Before I was using the headphone output of an S9+ as a line driver into the DSP408 and it was not able to make up for the low line voltage without adding significant coloration to the sound. The DSP.3 puts out a massive 6 volts. This meant I had to set all of my amp gains from near maximum to minimum (with some additional cuts in the DSP). And what I imagine to be the largest impact is the significant source change to USB Audio Player Pro transmitting directly through the USB hec directly into the processor. So now the signal chain only contains one DAC and no ADC's. The phone still ties into the car's bluetooth and it the steering wheel controls function and control UAPP and the stock stereo displays the track info and shows the album art. 🙌🙌🙌

As for the future, IB is coming eventually. I've got my router and got a drill... We're team Makita now. I still need some router bits and I'll probably grab one of those adjustable curves from MobileSolutions. I suppose I'll want a saw as well to chop my mounting plates out of 2x4 or 2x8. REW and a umik is doing me well but my sweet USB audio interface isn't so sweet and doesn't have a line input, so I'm on the hunt for a discount sound card that will allow me to set TA with a loopback setup - my searching has not been fruitful. There is only a hint of system noise, but it's still there and it's more than likely due to the embarrassingly low SN Ratio of the picasso amps. It's getting close to real amp time.

I also still have some nasty resonances in the 150+ range from the door speakers that should get tidied up when I add fiberglass into the doors... I might also need more glass in the dash, the back wave of the mid booms through the dash like a transmission line and outputs above your shin just inches from the midbass. Adding the insulation to the dash made a huge impact to a bunch of nasty sounds I was localizing to areas at the top of the door above the speaker. So you just never know with this ****.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

User2 said:


> Nice work. Tighten up those front doors...


If you insist! Ordered some Acoustimac 1" sheets, it's a recycled paper insulation that just edges out Owens Corning below 250hz. Perfect for doors! ECO-CORE Eco Friendly Insulation (4 lbs/ft) 48"x24"x1" -Case of 6 It seems like it's only going to fit at 1" thick in the lower 1/3 of the door, and I can't imagine it will fit 3" thick anywhere. With the door cards off and the CLD from the inner skins removed the mids still sing and resonate in a terrible way. There is a tiny metal ridge that is compressing the foam under the baffle and maybe this combined with the lack of CLD around the speaker mount on the inner skin is causing the mess? Before I patch up the door I'll squash the metal flat and see if that makes a difference. If I can stay productive I'll be able to get the passenger door CCF+MLV'd up tomorrow. And a sneaky shot showing the heart of this endeavor, to get the car to feel a little bit like the Tandbergs (which are unabashedly stuffed with fiberglass). And because we're all nerds a shot of the crossovers and response on these puppers.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Is that stuff mold/mildew resistant?


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

No but it's inert and doesn't smell or dust up. Besides that's what the bags are for.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Moving along.


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## Fish-N-Chips (Jul 11, 2018)

"The phone still ties into the car's bluetooth and it the steering wheel controls function and control UAPP and the stock stereo displays the track info and shows the album art."

Are you saying you're able to bluetooth to the HU while outputting audio to the usb and allowing the HU to control songs and volume? How are you able to do that?


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Fish-N-Chips said:


> "The phone still ties into the car's bluetooth and it the steering wheel controls function and control UAPP and the stock stereo displays the track info and shows the album art."
> 
> Are you saying you're able to bluetooth to the HU while outputting audio to the usb and allowing the HU to control songs and volume? How are you able to do that?



I use USB Audio Player Pro (UAPP) and Tidal as my source. Just like you'd expect when I start the car it automatically connects to my phone and begins playing media from my last used player and it displays the track info on the stereo - just like normal. Once the file is playing I plug the USB HEC into the phone. UAPP connects to the DAC, rebuffers the song at the highest available bitrate, and outputs through the USB. The phone is still connected to the stock stereo and accepts and responds to bluetooth inputs. Unfortunately the volume buttons are configured to the stock stereo's volume and not to adjust the volume of the connected bluetooth device. That's okay though, because a big benefit of UAPP is being able to run bit for bit from the source to the DAC but this requires you to use some alternative, hardware volume controller (in my case a URC.3).


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

User2 said:


> Nice job with the front doors. How much weight did you add per door? Curves and nerdy component pics are cool, but how does it sound?
> 
> Eco mat looks like stuff my dad used to use in his equipment back in the day (80's-90's). Do they offer any higher-performing, maybe thinner, non-eco friendly stuff? Synthetics sometimes prove to be superior, plus I like polluting the atmosphere.


It's not there yet. 🙃 The ecomat is better than owens corning, which was where most people head. I'm sure there is something better out there, but the ease of cutting and being able to cut it indoors made this a clear winner for me. The insulation made a big difference. I was LPing the revelators at 225 out of necessity - anything higher and it was very boomy. Now it sounds great crossed wherever. The widebands are not doing the justice I want to some songs with less than stellar recordings or narrow recordings. Not sure if that's my tuning ie TA/combs or if it's related to the install or simply to the windshield firing mids with no dash mat.

I'm still not sold on the MLV but to be fair my install sucks compared to what i could be. I've only done one door - the plan is to get some fun measurements of just the CLD vs. CLD, absorption, and CCF+MLV. Keep in mind this is more as a cute comparison of my ****ty install vs. my ****tier install, rather than an assessment of the tech behind it.


These are the two things that are really not coming through as well as I would like.





 Songs like this that are recorded or processed with a very narrow stage.





 Or songs with lots of resonance in the effects/processing like the vocalist's voice and the synth melody in the intro.


I don't know why it works like this for me, but when speakers are great I want to hear lots of tracks I can reference on them. When speakers are really fantastic I want to explore new music on them. We are not there yet.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Router bits arrived today. Time to turn an old weed tent into a mini woodshop? More fun future projects incoming, I snagged a used one of these. This piece sits between the cupholders and the gear lever and it really doesn't do anything. It's a giant knob that's not actually a jog wheel, it's a glorified twisty button. A ****ing button. Do you know how bad it feels to look at that giant knob and know it doesn't really turn? Good lord. Why? 😇


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## Fish-N-Chips (Jul 11, 2018)

User2 said:


> I take it "Sport Sharp #" is the setting for C# coders?


Honestly it's really the only setting anyone should use if you own an STI.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Fish-N-Chips said:


> Honestly it's really the only setting anyone should use if you own an STI.


I really hate it. If you're in first gear cruising through a parking lot and you have to get off the throttle completely - starting back up without using the clutch in S# just results in lurch lurch lurch lurch. I don't have a standalone installed so I can't pull timing from high vacuum to make that go away. I get that they want the car to downshift beautifully, but I'd gladly take the drivability. While I'm Subaru hating, they need to think harder about their acronyms. My car has STI and CDiff plastered all over the place.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Phasing, phasing, phasing. It's like time alignment for your crossovers. Before I get to mired down... REW wasa asking me to pull quite a bit out of my widebands in the upper reaches. I fell in line and pulled and went on living, appreciating all the benefits I heard elsewhere. The measurements were better, REW must be right. It took a few weeks of listening but it's just not there. I removed most of the changes in the region and then I stuck a shelf on. It didn't take much working with that and Yeowzah, what a nice change. Exactly what I'm looking for.

I tossed in a Zapco ST-4x SQ to power the front stage and it brought a nice increase in clarity, depth, and volume. 300 dollars very well spent. No issues with the 4ohm revelators. 😇 

Back to phasing, I now pray to god of allpass filters. I've perfectly nailed the phase alignment in the crossover region, well almost. I paid particular attention to the frequency range higher than the midpoint between crossovers because this is difficult and I have no idea what I'm doing. For example the sub crosses at 68 and the midbass crosses at 90 so my focus was on getting the phasing perfect from 79 and up. I'm sure a more experienced user (not you) could get them perfectly aligned throughout the entire crossover region.

Holy **** what a difference. We're pretty much there in terms of wow factor and the system just drawing me in. Not sure I can ask for much more.

I found this video depicting the phase changes (top left) pivoting around the allpass frequency explained it better than anything else. 





The list of things to do is slowly vanishing: Finish up passenger door + take measurements. Do drivers door. Fab URC3 mount (still not sure if I'm going to try and paint this myself). IB Baffle. New baffle for widebands. Rewire my amps to make my mother proud.

I think that's it. Today has been a day of **** eating grins and lots of music. What a pleasant and significant change. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. I learned a lot about the right stuff today, but a lot more learning to do. Maybe I'll have to buy one of those book things, Ugh.


PS - Does anyone know of a list of hotkeys for ATF DSP tool, or Helix DSP tool. Or at least a hotkey to swap between channels? I love that 1-8 mutes a channel - there has to be an easy way to swap channels.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

From what I gather it shouldn't be too difficult "as these things go". I'll definitely use cardboard to create a template and hopefully will just hog it out in an old 4x4 weed tent in my living room. Once I get a sense of the quality of my workmanship, read: the baffle's fitment, I'll have a better sense of how much gap there is to fill and what will work best. Yes the subs will most certainly be the excessive and unnecessary cherry on top. I look forward to seeing your ultra mobile media PC come to life, it's a project near to my heart! I'm really curious how long from starting the car to streaming from Tidal or the like.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

There are so many WRX builds. Not surprising though the are cool cars and we are cool people. 😁

So here are some shots from the helix showing the phase alignment I was able to achieve after TA and some rough EQ. Kind of proud of what I've got. From what I'm reading it seems like accurately measuring the phase of the driver at a listening location is not really possible, that you have to measure the phase of each speaker individually (often taking multiple measurements at different distances to draw out the whole phase alignment). So I guess this is what you're supposed to do? I feel like I'm starting to enter into the realm of people's business practices so I fear the path forward will be paved in engineering tutorials... but I'd much rather some insights from all you wonderful people. ahhahaha

It does sound lovely though.


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

If I "read"that graph properly you can change phase of channels independently at different frequencies? As in the dots on the graphs? What do the A and P mean on the right side?

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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

That's kind of what an allpass filter does! If you watch the video I linked above you can see how the filters applied at certain frequencies affect phase at and above that frequency. 

A is the driver's output and is depicted by the solid lines. P is driver's the phase and is shown by the dashed lines. The vertical bars are the phase rolling over from -180 to +180 as frequency increases (you can see the scale on the right).


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Small but significant improvments!


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## bnae38 (Oct 3, 2015)

Nice work! Mr meow meow approves*.







*.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Wow... I'll need to get smart on this stuff. So all of this is to correct the issues with the OE HU's all-pass filtering? Would something like a JL FiX-82 "fix" this (I just emailed them to ask them)?

Do you have any screen shots of before phase tuning with just the "factory" tune and no corrections? What are you using for an RTA?


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

No this is just to align all of my drivers in phase. I use a "DAP" of sorts that goes directly to the Helix via the HEC USB.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

opekone said:


> No this is just to align all of my drivers in phase. I use a "DAP" of sorts that goes directly to the Helix via the HEC USB.


What are you using for an RTA?

THX, below is a screenshot of how you can change phase in the Helix DSP Tool (all the way to the right above timing alignment.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

I'm sure there is a better way you could do this but from what I've gathered measuring the phase response of a driver is rather cumbersome and requires a series of measurements taken at various distances to get the whole response. There seem to be some decent software out there which can assist in this. Future readings... Second to this I imagine you could use an oscope to measure the phase differences of multiple sources, such as different amplified channels. But that's also very cumbersome and expensive. If you believe your amp is not introducing phasing errors into it's output then probing the signal that comes out of the DSP is just as useful. Fortunately the DSP shows us this. You can click the P next to any of the channels and it will superimpose the phase for that channel over whatever channel you are currently viewing.

Also I think the Helix has some sort of auto phase tuning if you use their mic.


This video was elucidating. 






This video is clear but don't use delay to align the phase, use phase shift and allpass filters.






This one will really make solid a bunch of the previous concepts.





Then go back to the video from the previous page and watch the phase changes as allpass filters are brought in, shifted to 2nd order, and moved around.





Honestly if you sit down and watch all of those once or twice you should find the phase alignment exceedingly straightforward. 😇


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

opekone said:


> Also I think the Helix has some sort of auto phase tuning if you use their mic.


I've been doing some research this morning regarding your above comment. I haven't found any specific claims that the Helix software will do this with their specific "MTK 1" mic. You can actually use any mic with DSP Tool, including the UMIK-1 or Dayton. It will do auto EQ, but I don't think it does auto-phase or auto-timing. I could be wrong though. Of course setting the time is just a matter of taking measurements with a tape measure.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

I'll spare you any vulgar acronyms.  Sorry I'm an idiot. Page 7 section 4.3.



https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/media/pdf/2e/3f/80/ATF_Sound_Tuning_Magazine-DSP_Setup_Guide_Vol1_web59e70c8eb138b.pdf



Once you have the ATF connected to their branded Mic it seems like a bunch of new options become available, but I haven't bothered to search about it.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

HAHA ok... well I think you are misreading. Technically that version of DSP Tool is outdated. I think their guide is based off of version 2.xx and they're on 4.52 now. A lot of the menus they show in that guide within the software are different now, to include the timing function. Chapter 3 of the guide covers the MTK1 and RTA. Chapter 4 goes into setup, which isn't really a continuation of their MTK 1 features. I am not sure what the "calculate" title you see there was for, but that actually no longer exists. I've attached a screenshot of the new software (I have been fooling around with it in demo mode for quite some time). The options now are to be in Distance Mode or Delay Mode. You can set delays in cm or inches and it automatically calculates timing based off your measurements or you can input in milliseconds if you select the Delay Mode. This has nothing to do with the MTK 1 though.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

By the way, got a response from JL Audio regarding their Fix line of OE integration processors:

******
Hello, no the FiX does not have the ability to correct or eliminate an all pass filter. It will do its best to correct the frequency response around it, but can not eliminate it. In some cases the FiX can over compensate for trying to correct the all pass and result in less than ideal calibration. You may need to not use a FiX and use outboard DSP to manually correct the signal or frequency response.
Eric Cole
Technical Support Specialist
Visit the JL Audio Website
Get more answers in the Help Center
Test drive TüN DSP Software for FREE
*****


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

If you ID where the filter is and which order, I imagine you could simply apply an inverted filter to the signal at the same location in the Helix. I'm not sure if the input EQ supports allpass filters or if you'd have to EQ each driver that plays in the region individually. There are quite a few threads about autotuning with the Helix RTA, but I have not read them. It's not difficult for an algorithm to calculate best fit between two phase lines and tell us where to put allpass filters or when to use phase shift or when to get it to fit out of phase then invert it. I wonder why they would remove such a feature.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

One great way to ID the filter would be to get a bookshelf speaker (best would be a wideband in a box) and place it outside of your car playing away into open space. Use some errant speaker wire to connect it to your amp and set it to have full range (set a reasonable LP duh) in the DSP but make sure ALL input EQ and all channel EQ is bypassed or zero'd. Play your test through the AUX in on the Helix (I assume you're using REW's generator) and use your mic to measure the phase response over and over starting close to the driver and moving back. This will draw out the phase response of the speaker. You'll have to do a little legwork to double check which frequencies phasing is measured more accurately at which distances, then plot the dots and draw the line. Now do the same thing but use the AUX input through the stock head unit. Comparing the two should give you a pretty good indication of where the stock radio is applying a filter. I would also verify if this is happening on both left and right channels, or just one. 

Once you have that figured out go into the Helix and try to recreate the wonky phasing. Set up two identical channels and display both of them. One will be our "in phase" channel and will consider that our good source - now add an allpass filter to the other channel until you make it look like the phase response you mesaured and drew out. Once you have that you've now ID's the location of the allpass filter and can invert it. Apply that inverted allpass filter to every channel that needs it.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

So if I go in there and do an "auto EQ" in the Helix software using a mic and pink (which it can do pretty well, so I read), what will be my indication that I've got allpass filtering going on through the stock HU? This may be all moot in the end considering 95% of my music listening will be through BT straight to the Helix from my phone. I wouldn't mind eliminating all CD and radio listening from my life. 😎


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

The indication that you've got allpass filtering going on in the stock head unit is to do everything I just explained in my previous post. I was not joking when I described it as cumbersome!!! 

Alternatively you could split some line level signal and send it to the aux inputs on the helix and stock unit at the same time. In the Helix IO route the input from the stock head unit to one driver and the input from the AUX to another. Calculate the delay difference between the two signal paths at different frequencies using your favorite method. Most if not all of the delays should match despite being at different frequencies. Now use an oscope to measure the signal at the speaker terminals and compensate for the delay we just measured. Now you can view the two waveforms and see the alignment of the stock radio superimposed on the 'true to source' waveform.

And what does this give us? Integration, lol! Ugh!

PS - I'm sure someone has some one click solution for all of this and they are laughing at these silly ideas of mine.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Well... I think I'll stop worrying about it, get the system hooked up, tune it and if it sounds good, it sounds good. If it doesn't, then I'll take it a step further.


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## Mtuna (May 23, 2020)

Frequentflyer said:


> Well... I think I'll stop worrying about it, get the system hooked up, tune it and if it sounds good, it sounds good. If it doesn't, then I'll take it a step further.


the stock head unit does have some odd stuff going on. Pink noise test with the same speaker using each input channel showed different REW curves and levels.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

When you say, "each input channel", there are really only 4. FL, FR, RL and RR. Are you saying that they differed side to side as well as front to rear? I can't wait to get my RTA going with the Helix to see what's going on.


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

Frequentflyer said:


> When you say, "each input channel", there are really only 4. FL, FR, RL and RR. Are you saying that they differed side to side as well as front to rear? I can't wait to get my RTA going with the Helix to see what's going on.


I can tell you the signal from the front is easily 4 times the level of the front when fader and balance are set to center. It's almost non existent. The question of left to right i hadn't even thought about until now. Damn that's messed up, makes me wish I'd replaced it already. LOL

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

THX0849 said:


> I can tell you the signal from the front is easily 4 times the level of the front when fader and balance are set to center. It's almost non existent. The question of left to right i hadn't even thought about until now. Damn that's messed up, makes me wish I'd replaced it already. LOL
> 
> Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


I did notice while I was scoping the front-left signal at the midbass speaker terminal, that whensetting the HU all the way to the left, it didn't do much of anything. I didn't have much time to play with it that day, but once I pop the panels off again to start sound deadening, I'll see if I can scope both sides. When you say "4 times the level of the front" did you mean 4 times the level of the "rear"? I do notice the rear speakers in this car are barely audible. My kids complain all the time.

I'll be happy to get it altogether and still maintain hands-free phone usage. I may not even be able to do that. lol


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

Yes sorry that's exactly what I meant, my bad. Yeah there's not much output from them. I can say that when i went "dumb" with my system and had the front and rear inputs both to my LC6-1200 it was nice to have that little bit from the rear. And yes definitely you'll be able to keep your hands free etc even if you use only the front inputs as I am right now. 


Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

THX0849 said:


> Yes sorry that's exactly what I meant, my bad. Yeah there's not much output from them. I can say that when i went "dumb" with my system and had the front and rear inputs both to my LC6-1200 it was nice to have that little bit from the rear. And yes definitely you'll be able to keep your hands free etc even if you use only the front inputs as I am right now.
> 
> 
> Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


The only issue I see is if I'm using the Bluetooth directly connected to the helix I'm not going to be able to hook up to the car's Bluetooth for a phone call to come in because I think you can only hook up to one Bluetooth Source at a time at least with my old-ass phone! LOL (Galaxy S7)


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## Mtuna (May 23, 2020)

Frequentflyer said:


> When you say, "each input channel", there are really only 4. FL, FR, RL and RR. Are you saying that they differed side to side as well as front to rear? I can't wait to get my RTA going with the Helix to see what's going on.


You answered your own question
Each of the four channels had different outputs. FL, FR, RL, RR.. The output from side to side is about a full DB difference and it is suggested to tune the input if you are using at least the 2018+ Base HU as that's what I tested.

At the end of the day you still won't be able to correct for all the issues built into factory head-unit. It comes down to if you can live with the small changes throughout the volume spectrum.

I think for me I am going to pull the trigger on a Joying head unit with a digital out.


The final test for me was I tuned the setup using stock HU.
Unplugged high level, used my test bench Alpine with 4v preamp and NO TA,EQ nothing hooked up to low level and the difference required enough for a tune change by a good bit. Still looking into the best option as I had really hoped keeping OEM integration and not adding a bunch of extra steps to using the radio.

Also, I believe the OP and you Frequent flyer are using a larger midbass like the GB60 Even crossed at 80 the doors need a TON of help, I can start off by saying after using MANY different door setups the best and simplest has been:

Peel and stick on the inner door around both beams as the door skin can vibrate here. Next cover up the thin metal on inside of the door panel with peel and stick, 1LB MLV, and a layer of CCF on each side. A very solid mount for the woofer, Riv nuts, and foam rings to seal to the door. I also went to range rover and picked up some of the OEM door panel clips. They are backed with foam where they meet the door and offered a more firm lock. That was key to some of my issues.

If crossing any lower then 65 for any reason good luck with the doors.


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

I hadn't even thought about a level difference side to side on these at all, that's nuts but I guess they do it for a reason for the stock setup. I will say that I tried the following and the difference was stark. I used a simple headphone to rca adapter cable and using that i swapped between the stock head unit and the phone while both playing the same file of pink noise going into the AC D6-1200. The input RTA was very noticeably flat/flatter using the phone through the headphone adapter compared to the stock head unit. There are a couple pictures of this on my build log thread. So yeah changing head unit is definitely and upgrade worth the money and effort which may be in my near future. 

I haven't always heard good things about the audio quality on those Joying head units, have they gotten better?

Yes the doors need a lot of help to deaden those things. I covered those things pretty good I think and they're pretty quiet. I ordered a different speaker adapter that i hope will make sure things on the 6.5" are sturdy. Don't love the Metra speaker adapters. 

Frequent, old or newer phone won't make a difference as far as the Bluetooth connection. Even though you can have 2 "components" connected to the phone via Bluetooth, only 1 will do the audio at a time. I've got a OnePlus 7T and I have the same issue I either stream via Bluetooth or have hands free through the radio not both. Thats why so many on this forum use a separate source for Bluetooth. Now, if we were to replace the headunit with a quality replacement I'm sure that would make the point a bit mute.Then we could (conceivably) have our cake and eat it to!


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## Mtuna (May 23, 2020)

THX0849 said:


> I hadn't even thought about a level difference side to side on these at all, that's nuts but I guess they do it for a reason for the stock setup. I will say that I tried the following and the difference was stark. I used a simple headphone to rca adapter cable and using that i swapped between the stock head unit and the phone while both playing the same file of pink noise going into the AC D6-1200. The input RTA was very noticeably flat/flatter using the phone through the headphone adapter compared to the stock head unit. There are a couple pictures of this on my build log thread. So yeah changing head unit is definitely and upgrade worth the money and effort which may be in my near future.
> 
> I haven't always heard good things about the audio quality on those Joying head units, have they gotten better?
> 
> ...











2015+ Subaru WRX/STi Audiofrog Gb60 mount with OE AF grill by Getmtuned


Made this to work with the Audiofrog Gb60 in the doors. Using the OEM mount is sloppy IMO. This uses the correct angle and makes a clean install that protects your Gb60 and ensures a proper seal. Use foam backing on the mount and where speaker rests. 1/4 works perfect. Change the OEM plastic...




www.thingiverse.com





I made this for my AF. It's free to download. If you do not have a 3d Printer you can have them made online and shipped to you. If you using another driver I can mod it for you!

In regards to the Joying, it was the only Android device with a digital out I was able to find.

I do love the idea of doing more with the head unit, however, I loathe losing the OEM look. The Dasita PX6 was a second choice but still only analog out. I am not sure if it's even worth it with most music played to bother with digital but wanted the best bang for the buck. Also fearful that some internal EQ, TA may not be able to be turned off.

I miss the days of CD players and simple flat eq output lol.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

I mean you are in the one thread where the OP has their cake and is eating it too 

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Mtuna said:


> 2015+ Subaru WRX/STi Audiofrog Gb60 mount with OE AF grill by Getmtuned
> 
> 
> Made this to work with the Audiofrog Gb60 in the doors. Using the OEM mount is sloppy IMO. This uses the correct angle and makes a clean install that protects your Gb60 and ensures a proper seal. Use foam backing on the mount and where speaker rests. 1/4 works perfect. Change the OEM plastic...
> ...


How do you think the printing materials available compare to something like HDPE or the like sonically? Also I know my setup is rather cumbersome in nature, but depending on your source choices it is possible to retain the OEM radio and bluetooth integration with your DAP while also using a digital usb connection to an external DAC. My phone does exactly that and with UAPP I can still send bit for bit to the DAC. To me this is optimal. Even if I had a 9" aftermarket display it would only be used in the same limited capacity.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

I should have some of these mounts in the mail to me within a few days. I got his design printed. Cost me about $65 with shipping. I will take some pics when I get them.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

I finally got the URC3 which means I'm now able to take advantage of the bit for bit output. What a surprisingly significant difference it made to take out whatever processing the phone/UAPP was doig.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

opekone said:


> I finally got the URC3 which means I'm now able to take advantage of the bit for bit output. What a surprisingly significant difference it made to take out whatever processing the phone/UAPP was doig.


The Helix URC.3? Please explain!


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

USB Audio Player Pro (UAPP) on your android device lets you send bit for bit data to your external DAC. (The other super benefit of UAPP is that you can stream Tidal through it with the same perfect quality.)


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

opekone said:


> USB Audio Player Pro (UAPP) on your android device lets you send bit for bit data to your external DAC. (The other super benefit of UAPP is that you can stream Tidal through it with the same perfect quality.)


From what I've read, UAPP is just for USB to DAC (hence the named USB Audio Player Pro). Is there anything out there for Bluetooth or I am just limited to using Android's basic audio player and/or internet based sources like Youtube?


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

We are a community of marginal gains. You think I'm going to leave something on the table when it costs 8 bucks? Sir, please.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

LOL OK, I guess my question is, does UAPP stream over Bluetooth any better than the standard music app?


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Bluetooth versus a wired connection is a personal decision that may do nothing at all or it may make a difference. Up for everyone to decide for themselves :]


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Where do you store your music files? Right on the phone or an external drive?


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

Frequentflyer said:


> Where do you store your music files? Right on the phone or an external drive?


As you have an S7, you have a micro sd slot where you can put your music on. Go as big and as fast as you like. From what I've read the Onkyo HF Player app allows you to stream from external sources so with the right USB C adapter you could hook up an external drive even. 

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

THX0849 said:


> As you have an S7, you have a micro sd slot where you can put your music on. Go as big and as fast as you like. From what I've read the Onkyo HF Player app allows you to stream from external sources so with the right USB C adapter you could hook up an external drive even.
> 
> Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


Yeah I am thinking about upgrading my phone. I have been resisting temptation to upgrade because these damn things are $30-35 per month to finance (x2 because wifey won't have anything to do with me getting a new phone without her ). I may look into buying two second-hand S9's or whatever instead of going brand new.

I picked up this BT module, but it looks like the best way to go may be USB DAC to optical straight to the Helix (thanks opekone ). That brings up the charging issue, which drives buying a hub like the Lava STS-3U. 

So yes, large internal micro-SD storage or I am trying to figure out if I can connect a USB-stick to the hub and access music off it while sending it to the DAC.


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

There are a couple phone mounts that allow you to change wirelessly, that would be a solution for charging, just be sure to get a phone that has it. In my case wife likes to hold on to phones to they die, took her S7 screen to have a pixel line through it (panel failure) to upgrade to the S10. 

You mention a Bluetooth module, which/what is it.

USB DAC? Is that a USB C to something adapter or a cable of some sort? I'm interested in that, read it a few posts back today and was wondering how that all plugs in from the USB C of the phone on down. As i don't have an optical in (yet) wonder if DAC to RCA input to the DSP is doable. 

So many questions! Ugh sorry!



Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

DAC - Digital to Analog converter. They do have USB to RCA also. Basically, cell phones have DAC's already in them. It is what is used every time you plug in a set of headphones. However, the DAC's built into most cell phones suck. I believe the DAC connected to the 3.5mm headphone jack on the S7 is 16 bit. If you get an app that can output music via USB, like UAPP, you can play 24 bit music, but the digital signal needs to be converted to an analog signal, which is where the external DAC comes into play. Of course for most people, 16 bit is good enough if they're running it through a crappy set of headphones or the HU of their OE system.






DACs Archives - Hifime Audio







hifimediy.com


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

I use Tidal and stream my music. With cloud based lossless music services for as low as 15 a month, and considering the availibility of no frills unlimited data plans... it's really a fools errand to try and maintain a music library anymore.

Music streams from the cloud to my phone. From the phone it passes through USB to get to the DAC/DSP. UAPP lets me stream from the cloud, then send bit perfect data to my DAC. Pretty good deal.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

opekone said:


> I use Tidal and stream my music. With cloud based lossless music services for as low as 15 a month, and considering the availibility of no frills unlimited data plans... it's really a fools errand to try and maintain a music library anymore.
> 
> Music streams from the cloud to my phone. From the phone it passes through USB to get to the DAC/DSP. UAPP lets me stream from the cloud, then send bit perfect data to my DAC. Pretty good deal.


Are you using a hub for simultaneous charging?


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Haven't gotten that far. Any suggestions?


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

https://lavasimulcharge.com/product/nsts-3u-samsung-hub/?attribute_type=Original



This one seems to get good reviews.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

https://lavasimulcharge.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Simulcharge_Technology_Overview_A00.pdf



Thanks buddy!  😇 😇 😇 






Simultaneous USB/OTH Host Charge - Charge-Plus USB-C


This USB-C adapter makes it possible to simultaneously access USB 2.0 data and charge a mobile device at the same time from a single USB-C port




lavaaccessory.com













Amazon.com: Charge Tek Charge Plus USB-C 91203 : Electronics


Buy Charge Tek Charge Plus USB-C 91203: USB Cables - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

opekone said:


> https://lavasimulcharge.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Simulcharge_Technology_Overview_A00.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh wow. Even better!! I am assuming you can connect the third port to your DAC.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Frequentflyer said:


> Oh wow. Even better!! I am assuming you can connect the third port to your DAC.


It's an otg cable that supplies power. The third port is just for power. They have a few different models that supply power through different means. This one is5v from a usb cable

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Does the DAC need power or just signal?


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

The DAC is an internal integrated chip in the Helix DSP. It receives power from the Helix unit itself.

When you connect your phone or tablet to a device with an OTG cable your phone does not get charged. This is an OTG cable with a third inlet so you can feed a power source into your device. It's not that the phone is using it's battery to supply the DAC with power (although that does happen in some situations), it's that the phone isn't being charged when it's plugged into the DAC. This device allows your phone to get charged while it's connected via an OTG cable.

The "simulcharge" technology is just that. It's an OTG port that supplies power to the master device.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

opekone said:


> The DAC is an internal integrated chip in the Helix DSP. It receives power from the Helix unit itself.
> 
> When you connect your phone or tablet to a device with an OTG cable your phone does not get charged. This is an OTG cable with a third inlet so you can feed a power source into your device. It's not that the phone is using it's battery to supply the DAC with power (although that does happen in some situations), it's that the phone isn't being charged when it's plugged into the DAC. This device allows your phone to get charged while it's connected via an OTG cable.
> 
> The "simulcharge" technology is just that. It's an OTG port that supplies power to the master device.


Oh ok. I was under the impression you were using an external DAC between your phone and the DSP, such as this:









Hifime UAE23HD with Sabre 9018 USB DAC, Preamp, Headphone amp


Hifime UAE23HD Digital to Analog (ES9018K2M chip) is a compact audiophile USB D/A converter (DAC) that works with all headphones and amplifiers/preamps.




hifimediy.com





I didn't realize that wasn't necessary with the Helix. So with the HEC USB on the Helix, the DAC is internal and no external DAC is required (because that is what the HEC basically is). Without the HEC USB, the other option would be to get a USB to Optical adapter and run optical into the DSP, correct?

I bought the damn HEC BT Module not realizing there were devices out there offering simulcharging! 🤬🤬


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Frequentflyer said:


> Oh ok. I was under the impression you were using an external DAC between your phone and the DSP, such as this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The HEC is just an expansion slot. helix expansion channel? idk. All DSPs have a DAC and an ADC. But you can't run a USB input into the DAC of most DSPs. All DSPs need a DAC to convert the digital signal they are processing back to analog.

In the case where you run high level inputs or RCA cables into the DSP you are sending an analog signal into the unit. The DSP takes the signal and runs it into the the ADC (analog to digital converter) and then it does all that digital signal processing we love so much. Then it runs through the DAC and you get a nice line level analog output.

We can avoid one step by sending a digital signal into the DSP. You can use the HEC expansion slot to input through USB or bluetooth, or you can do like you assumed I was doing by say using a Topping d30 as a very clean USB to SPDIF converter then running that still-digital SPDIF signal into the DSP. Then the DSP takes that digital signal and runs it through the digial processing magic, then finally through the DAC.

I just want to note this is meerly an assumption of the signal path within the Helix. For all I know my phone could interface with a DAC in the Helix that runs the digital signal right into the ADC. But I have more faith in ATF than that.


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## nyquistrate (Apr 17, 2011)

I use this at home and on the go:

USB Type C Headphone Audio Jack Adapter, 2 in 1 Dual Type C Earphone Dongle


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

nyquistrate said:


> I use this at home and on the go:
> 
> USB Type C Headphone Audio Jack Adapter, 2 in 1 Dual Type C Earphone Dongle


Definitely can save a few bucks picking up one of those and running it inline with an OTG cable.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Frequentflyer said:


> By the way, got a response from JL Audio regarding their Fix line of OE integration processors:
> 
> ******
> Hello, no the FiX does not have the ability to correct or eliminate an all pass filter. It will do its best to correct the frequency response around it, but can not eliminate it. In some cases the FiX can over compensate for trying to correct the all pass and result in less than ideal calibration. You may need to not use a FiX and use outboard DSP to manually correct the signal or frequency response.
> ...


That is a surprisingly honest answer.


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

ckirocz28 said:


> That is a surprisingly honest answer.


JL is a stand up company and the people there are helpful with any questions you have. And for me, they're local! LOL

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

The d10 has landed, I was so excited to look up which RCA input doubled as a digital coaxial in... except that's not how it works and the dsp.3 doesn't accept coaxial digital signals. So an optical cable is on order! I'm not sure if the writing is on the walls or not: for the cost of software to properly tune the Helix I can purchase a Dirac dsp. I was smart enough to cover the entire Helix in painters tape before installing it, so I've got that going for me.

Still slowly improving my tuning skills. I must have created 7 different tunes each with 10 different versions, but I kept going back to a select few. Tunes with wild 5-10db swings in response sounded so much better, more inviting, more musical, less 'noisy'. Some allpass filters make such a big difference. But you can't allpass away bad install, and I'm finally feeling the need to finish the doors.

The left door is only treated with CLD on the outside skin and CLD is 'sealing' the holes on the inner skin. The right door has CLD and 'fiberglass' stuck to the outer door skin, but the inner skin is completely barren and only the door card is blocking the rear wave. Not surprisingly the left door has a smoother response, especially around 150 where it only suffers a small dip. The right door SOUNDS way better and is far more musical, but it has a wide crater in the center of it's response around 150.

I'll spare you the graphs until I can post them all side by side. Why am I posting such a worthless update? Well, it's like announcing your diet to your friends.

My DCCD controller came apart easily. The knob isn't designed to rotate freely but with a little epoxy I should be able to create a smooth landing for the interface between the knob and the mount. From there a little more epoxy to stick my URC.3 to the giant knob and I might just be one happy Opekone.

Maybe this weekend will be the weekend that I craigslist all that's in my storage locker and bring that tent home...


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## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

opekone said:


> There are so many WRX builds. Not surprising though the are cool cars and we are cool people. 😁


F***ing ay!
Sorry just cruising the forum and found your build, only halfway read through it but couldn't help but give that sentence a 'hell yeah'!
🤘🤘
ps: every time i see @beerdrnkr 's wiring and spare tyre arrangement I am reminded that I am NOT a pro at car audio  lol


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

captainbuff said:


> F***ing ay!
> Sorry just cruising the forum and found your build, only halfway read through it but couldn't help but give that sentence a 'hell yeah'!
> 
> ps: every time i see @beerdrnkr 's wiring and spare tyre arrangement I am reminded that I am NOT a pro at car audio  lol


That's how I feel with 90% of the installs on this site! Lol

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Okay team Subaru, I have an idea.

Put both of your sun visors down.

That's my idea.

They are thick and foam and dense and felt and textured and wonderful. I'll be driving around with my visors down from now on! 

Following in beerdrinker's footsteps I'll throw a dash mat on there in a week or two when it arrives. Hopefully the combo can make me feel better about everything!


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

LMAO but seriously these are fun cars to own and modify. Your builds are inspirations!

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

THX0849 said:


> LMAO but seriously these are fun cars to own and modify. Your builds are inspirations!
> 
> Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


Right on...if you own a WRX (STi or not) don't expect to be lighting up every car on the road and don't expect to NOT have any issues if you mod around a bit.
Just have a fun daily driver and enjoy it


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## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

opekone said:


> Bluetooth versus a wired connection is a personal decision that may do nothing at all or it may make a difference. Up for everyone to decide for themselves :]


Sorry to drop in randomly with stuff that has 'been and gone'...but as I am doing my build currently I am reading up on other peoples...
However I just wanted to say (just FWIW) that the above statement was VERY well worded...I dabble in home and pro audio as well; and being able to say the above in an ambivalent objective manner was really;;;amazing actually!
I am completely bigoted against Bluetooth. Some guys get edgy about introducing too many DAC to ADC conversions in their signal chain; let alone Bluetooth-ing music...but each to their own is much more friendly way to say what I really mean!

Moving along...

Installing fibreglass to your doors is not something I have seen before...in fact the treatment that you put into your doors is pretty intense IMHO...I would be interested in your opinion on it. All that I have done so far (though it is pending) is treat the outer skin with CLD in much the same manner as yourself, put some CCF behind the speakers, treat a few areas of the inner leaf with CLD (areas that sound tinny when tapped on) and then coat the whole inner leaf with a layer of CCF/MLV/CCF. On reflection I should be a little more thorough with CLD to the inner door skin and fill some voids in the door card with <something> (cheers for the build log that pricked my laziness!); but I don't know about wrapping up insulation and putting it into the doors...wow. Is it a common thing to do nowadays? I have been away from car audio for a while...

Lastly on the whole 'music source', USB with external DAC and the lengthy discussion there...would I be right in saying that a lot of that would be a non issue if the head unit was swapped out? It sounds as if a few are talking about piggybacking another source to the DSP and removing the head units frailties in the process? Maybe I have read that all wrong...but if not it kind of suggests 'head unit swap' to me...I wanted to raise the question because it sounded like a head unit swap would render all of the discussion moot...again unless I missed something...

Just FWIW...I have spoken at length with a reputable installer/retailer over East of Oz and discussed on a previous forum about optical connections quite a while ago, Bear in mind that at that time there were few (and they were very expensive) head units that gave an optical out anyway. Regardless said installer had run RCA's and run optical in the same car and done a full side by side test. No difference in sound (or anything else) was his conclusion; and was the consensus of the forum members as well. With the caveat being that you didn't have induced noise in the RCA cables; but then again on that was the statement that if you used 'decent' RCA's (not Stinger 9000 series, but good!) and did the install properly you shouldn't have any induced noise anyway.

Each person do what you think is best, no problems there! I just wanted to give my two cents; because at the time Helix DSP's were just rolling out and they had an optical in so suddenly the question came up. As I said...at that time it meant spending big dollars just to run an optical connection to the boot (the trunk) of the car (like $2k - sorry that is Aussie dollars - minimum for a reasonable head unit with optical out). Maybe things have changed and it is more affordable, or maybe I misread the post in parts and the last two paragraphs are just useless information...not sure; but thought I would share in the off chance it helps anyone  possibly just a note that in my experience (prove me wrong if I am!) optical cables and connections won't add anything to car audio.

The RTA stuff I just haven't looked into yet! I have been through the Helix software - and read a little of the users manual on REW - but whilst I can mostly follow what you are talking about...still a lot of it is probably stuff that I will have to come back to  I can't help but say that again one issue that seemed to be discussed about having to 'undo' what the OEM head unit had done to the signal...**** it really seems like a headache that could be avoided...

Doesn't matter what I say anyway! Mainly because it is archaic and I probably am talking about the wrong thing regardless...but great install man 🤟.

Peace


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Although I have the hardware to integrate, there is no way to do it without manipulating the signal. And why bother when I can hardwire?

My biggest concern is UAPP has been giving me lots of issues recently. I'm nearly ready to go apple so I can use the god damn native Tidal app.

The doors are done this way by "lots" of people, though I definitely did a lazy job of it.


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## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

opekone said:


> The doors are done this way by "lots" of people, though I definitely did a lazy job of it.


Cool...it isn't something I have ever seen before (but I have been out of the loop for a while as noted previously!). It actually really caught my eye because of your mention of 'Owens Corning 703'...

Long and boring story short - I have created a soundproof room/studio in one of my spare bedrooms for the sake of doing what I love yet whilst not being overly anti-social (drums are LOUD...I'm sure all may have heard some loud car stereo in their lives; but if I go berserk on my drum kit for only a couple minutes without hearing protection my ears will be ringing for at least ten minutes after!) - anyway in the process of DIY'ing the whole thing I read a bunch of American books and forums on soundproofing (makes sense). They all refer to 703! I think because it must be so well known in America (?) it is often used as an example/benchmark when guys were talking about soundproofing rooms. 

The issue was that being Aussie I have never heard of 703 and I don't think it is available here; so I had to figure out what the hell everyone was talking about and buy the appropriate substitute when I did my room  FWIW it is not the right material to use for sound isolation - it is OK, but there are specialist brands that are more suited - but it was still constantly referred to in reference to sound attenuation of a room as (I only assume) it was so readily available and well known! It was also a much cheaper alternative to the 'specialist brands' and was used by many who were strapped for cash.

This is Aussie dollars so it might be a little obscure...but it cost about $6k for me (I DIY'ed EVERYTHING as well) to sound isolate and sound treat a bedroom; and about 30% of that cost was in a very good (but not the best) acoustic insulation.

That's my version of cutting a story short...sorry, no dragons in there either 

Anyway...a box of Dynamat is about $250 at the moment and a pack of decent insulation to do my entire car and put some in my roof is about $60...so no problems there 



opekone said:


> Although I have the hardware to integrate, there is no way to do it without manipulating the signal. And why bother when I can hardwire?
> 
> My biggest concern is UAPP has been giving me lots of issues recently. I'm nearly ready to go apple so I can use the god damn native Tidal app.


100% agreed. I remember on a previous forum getting shot down when I suggested the irrelevance of a head unit if you could just send an 'auxiliary' signal to your DSP. Good to see that I was actually able to think into the future a few years...

...however the caveat with that was the ability to control the 'auxiliary' signal. It was easy to plug in an external HD...but back then only a tablet was the really viable way to control the signal to the DSP (and IIRC) there were inherent issues with that anyway.

Absolutely no offence intended to yourself or anyone else with the next statement; I guess it is a way of making sure I am still somewhat up to speed with the basics! I have not heard of the app's that guys are referring to and don't completely understand how a lot of what is being said correlates to an input signal to the DSP...however I do know that my head unit plays flac's, has a USB in, and RCA's out......so.......yeah......
Apologies as I just say what I think...it just takes too long to 'euphimise' things. I can only apologise as I know that what I say may piss people off and that I'm probably wrong, ignorant and sound like grandpa anyway 

Thanks for the log though man...I'll definitely do a little extra work on my doors!

Peace


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

RCAs typically carry an analog signal - Digital coaxial is the same fitting, ehhh i know, but it's just one cable not a pair. So if you RCA out you're taking your digital source material and passing through the digital to analog converter in your head unit, then passing that analog signal into your DSP which runs it through an ADC (analog to digital converter) then inserts that digital stream into the DSP workspace, then sends it through a second DAC before outputting an analog signal to the rca's on the output of your DSP.

So you can avoid one DAC conversion and one ADC conversion and your DSP can manipulate the perfect digital source file before it makes a single pass through it's integrated DAC.

Assuming you have a stereo that adds no processing to the input signal, it just passes it through it's ADC. Does this make a difference? I guess. I don't know. You have to decide what's worth your time and effort.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Soooooo. UAPP is cool. My Topping d10 is not.

I kept getting having my phone disconnect from the DAC. Over and over and over. No amount of settings or configuration could prevent this. No amount of cable swaps or OTG swaps could resolve this. I was still having the issue with Tidal output, but it was FAR rarer. Tidal was also much quieter than UAPP. So I grabbed the laptop and added 6db across the board to bring Tidal input up to an enthusiastic volume. Almost immediately it becomes clear that regardless of the player I am getting disconnected at very high listening levels. Consistently. Over and over. Turn the volume down and stay connected for hours. Turn it up and lose connection within 30 seconds.

*But the volume is controlled by a URC.3 *I am at a loss in understanding how this could happen.

Use the HEC USB and I'm back running, no issues.

Disconnecting the optical cable from the d10 or from the dsp does not impact the connection between the phone and the d10.

I mean it's really of no consequence to me now, but is this an isolated issue with my d10 or is this something I'm not understanding about the setup.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Looks like that wont help my poor poor phone.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Same thing happens from with the android tidal app.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Dash mat is in. Combined with the sun visors down the car is a completely different animal. Reflections are dramatically reduced. Still some phasing/reflections/untidyness around 2-2.5k that I can't get rid off, but it shows up rarely enough I'm quite pleased.

I am now a pretty strong subscriber to minimum phase. I suspect pillars or pods would really drive that point home... What I thought was a 2 channel sound card is not as it merges the inputs into one stream (Scarlet 2i2). At some point I'll throw down for a proper 2 channel card - at that time we'll see if smaart pushes back against my minimum phase dreams.

I've found lots of success running with Erin's sub suggestions and pushing a very aggressive crossover on my sub. I'm using a pretty gross bessel 12db cross at 200hz which has the sub playing very high, but it localizes very well to the front. It's quite compelling.

The higher I cross the revelators the better everything sounds, but I lose some imaging... Rainbow life. But the tone improvement and musicality difference is more than worth it, so I'll have to manage - though all of this has me really wanting to try some sails, pods, or pillars. 

I'd say I'm 90% of the way there and I think 75% of it is from the dash mat, the visors, and stuffing the dash full of fiberglass. 🤷‍♂️


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

Now that's some interesting results! Are you getting any negative results from the high (200hz) sub crossover? I love the feeling of the sub/bass to come from the front. 

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

Any measurements of before and after dash mat for comparison? Would be great to see the difference. Happy to hear it’s sounding good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

I'm sure I can manage that.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Are you just using a 2-way setup with widebands or did you add tweeters? What are your crossover settings?


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Here are un-eq'd responses












1250 is where I cross the widebands, any higher and I just can't handle it. 

Can you guess which midbass has the insulation in the door?


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

While these two things can measure the same in REW I don't think EQing the source so that reflections produce the right SPL is the same as attenuating those reflections. In one case you're removing noise in the other you're reducing your signal to compensate for the noise.


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

opekone said:


> Here are un-eq'd responses
> 
> View attachment 276017
> 
> ...


Are the two wideband measurements that are lower, the measurements with the dash mat?

I ask because I had a dashmat for a bit that covered the corner dash speakers and the attenuation of the high frequencies was very noticeable when measured in REW. (I wish I saved these measurements).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Yes it is. 

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

opekone said:


> pretty gross bessel 12db cross at 200hz which has the sub playing very high, but it localizes very well to the front. It's quite compelling.


DAM man! Wow...2nd order cross is all good (depends on the car and the gear and the musical taste...whatever you reckon is good there)...but 200 Hz is pretty crazy!
I like it man...take care of your drivers; but test the boundaries and see what works...nice work bro. Really like that word up


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## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

opekone said:


> While these two things can measure the same in REW I don't think EQing the source so that reflections produce the right SPL is the same as attenuating those reflections. In one case you're removing noise in the other you're reducing your signal to compensate for the noise.


Sorry mate...but did you just say the same thing two different ways...?
Guys...ditch the head unit and save the pain. Just IMHO......
Peace


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

captainbuff said:


> Sorry mate...but did you just say the same thing two different ways...?
> Guys...ditch the head unit and save the pain. Just IMHO......
> Peace


Yeah, I haven't turned my factory HU on since I've completed my build. Kind of still pisses me off I just missed my renewal date on my Sirius XM Radio, but I am currently using Tidal with the Fiio DAP, which puts out a flat as a board signal.


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## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

Frequentflyer said:


> Yeah, I haven't turned my factory HU on since I've completed my build. Kind of still pisses me off I just missed my renewal date on my Sirius XM Radio, but I am currently u*sing Tidal with the Fiio DAP, which puts out a flat as a board signal.*


Cool man...so *the bold* takes your head unit signal and effectively 'flattens it' so it can be processed as you like further down the signal chain? That is pretty cool if I have that right....nice....


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

No, actually the Fiio "DAP" or any other DAP (Digital Audio Player) is basically an .mp3 player you can use as a signal source. I plug it right into my DSP/Amp with an optical cable and use it as my primary signal source.


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## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

Frequentflyer said:


> No, actually the Fiio "DAP" or any other DAP (Digital Audio Player) is basically an .mp3 player you can use as a signal source. I plug it right into my DSP/Amp with an optical cable and use it as my primary signal source.


Yeah...and I should have known that because I've been told it before...SMH
Thanks for the polite reminder though...sometimes you just want to go 'ummm,,,,dumbass....no....' so I appreciate it


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Rip morels
















Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Rut Roh...


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

Damn, that blows! Too much power?


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Either defective or user error, only Morel can say


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

The future is coming. Thanks to @klhae for the suggestion on the Faital's.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Interesting. 16-ohm huh? Made in Italy - can't be bad stuff.


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

Read a lot of good things about that brand at least if not that particular model. Looks like a solid piece. 

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Anyone have input on UHMW vs. HDPE? 

It seems like they should function in exactly the same way for our purposes, but based on this data it seems like HDPE is not only cheaper but if anything a better solution?










HDPE vs UHMW | Compare Polyethylene Materials & Properties | Curbell Plastics


Compare these two popular polyethylenes - what is HDPE vs UHMW. Includes performance characteristics, brands, and typical material properties.




www.curbellplastics.com


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

Looks like yes HDPE would be a better choice material. I am using starboard for my amp rack and rear speaker adapters and I'm happy with it so far. Thinking of using it for the new speakers i assume?

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Yes, I also used StarBoard for my amp racks, which is basically HDPE with a texture on the top of it for aesthetic purposes (mainly for boating applications). It cuts like wood and screws hold well in it. If you want something with a smoother finish, regular HDPE would be the same thing without the texture.


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

The piece I got from my local shop (nice freebie) is smooth on one side with a plastic protective sheet you remove one done cutting Tex the other has a slight texture to it. It's a great product. Got a few pieces of it still so if i decide to change something up i can.

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## Bobby_Jones (Apr 9, 2020)

opekone said:


> The future is coming. Thanks to @klhae for the suggestion on the Faital's.
> 
> View attachment 276933


I was interested in these. Did you install them?


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

I’m not sure if anyone has pointed it out... but applying filters according to the phase display in the helix is definitely the wrong way to go about it! It has no reference to the cabins effect on phase, timing and delays which is what you’d apply an allpass filter to correct for

To measure phase and timing and set it up correctly you use a single mic position, not multiple mics or spatial averaging, timing (and phase to an extent) are set at a single point between the ears, you dont apply all pass filters according to the helix display

Fancy stuff like Dirac live uses spatial averages and then crunches numbers to work out how to apply fir filters to the input so the output is timed to perfection

Unless you are physically measuring phase I can more or less guarantee you are messing phase up at the listening position by messing with all pass filters or at least doing nothing that using symmetrical filters wouldn’t do

You can eq to a house curve and ideally have symmetrical crossovers on drivers to give a good starting point for correct phase of each driver, then use the eq to correct the response that’s not accurate, you can then have correct phase response and amplitude response which is what we need for a crossover

You do need to measure phase (which gives arrival times) of each driver to set time alignment accurately also as time alignment will alter phase at the listening position by larger amounts as you get higher in frequency (the wavelengths get shorter so the time period of a given wavelength is also shorter) so if you move one side by 1 msec it will have twice the effect at 1khz as it would at 500hz, and ten times more phase adjustment at 5khz vs 500hz, that’s why time alignment has a correct setting, and as the cabin effects the sound and delays one side due to late reflections more than the other you can then apply all pass filters to the early side to delay it to match the later sides arrival time

The above is why phase adjustment is far more common to use on a subwoofer to match it to a midbass, the phase control moves the phase at the crossover point to make it match the ‘measured’ response of the midbass and not what you see in the helix, timing can also be used to adjust the top end of the crossover/response to match the midbass also...

Phase and timing are hand in hand

But don’t apply all pass based on the helix display...


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Also some helpful info about uapp/tidal/topping d10

First off. The topping is a bit more power hungry than a phone alone can support a fair bit of the time, get a charging hub, go optical and you will then get improved sq vs the usb hec!

You can also supply the topping by ‘hacking’ the usb power lead also, basically cut the 5v supply wire and use a 5v usb charger that’s been doctored, it works well and no issues with the topping switching off, but the charging otg hub is a far better idea

Android... using usb audio player pro does indeed get bit perfect audio out, but as said you lose your volume control in the device, the urc.3 remote solves this and this or a director is an excellent way to control the volume at the last point we can which is excellent for sq also

Uapp is good for people who stream, but for people who use downloaded content due to signal issues or low data usage you can’t do that from the uapp app due to the encryption tidal put on the downloaded content for digital rights management

So if you use the tidal app you can only ever stream 48khz whether it’s a 44.1khz or 192khz stream, android converts it to 48khz sample rate, god knows why but they do

Also when using uapp you allow uapp to take over the drivers for the device, you then have to close uapp to release the driver back to android to use another streaming service for example

Apple devices do indeed stream in a bit perfect manner by default as long as you don’t reduce the volume, and also will do this from whatever app you use, and you can swap between them, I should also add you can use downloaded content with Apple devices

The cheapest Apple digital source (that contrary to the Apple site does work) is the iPod touch, I run a 32gb version for competition for Emma as I am budget limited, so it’s 229 euros on the competitor price list, but I also have an iPad mini 5 256gb loaded with downloaded tidal content that is my daily source via a topping D10s

The D10/D10s via optical actually sounds better than coax to some good friends of mine who tested both, I tested coax vs usb hec vs analogue when I had a director from an android device when I was testing sources and digital from the topping won out... make of that what you will

Anyway, figured I’d just say hello, drop some info (I use smaart so I measure phase and correct it hence my first post above) and also add a little bit about the topping as I have had excellent results from the little budget diamond! 😎


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

I disagree about the phase display on the Helix and it's usefulness and I'd encourage you to try it out (it wont take more than 5 minutes to bypass your allpass and write a few new ones). It is only useful for making symmetrical adjustments. I do not suggest trying to smooth out the phase response of a driver across it's response or trying to make adjustments to an individual channel, but simply improving the alignment of two pairs of drivers at crossover (eg - both midbasses to the sub, or both midbasses to both midranges)

Time alignment and phase are different things. Phase determines the 'zero' point of the driver and time alignment determines when a peak arrives. Adjusting phase does not adjust when a 'peak' arrives but it adjusts where the driver is within it's xmax when it achieves that 'peak'. But you know this. Phase alignment in a cabin is exceedingly difficult. Again you know this.

For these reasons minimum phase is assumed by many people. In fact many of these people are strong competitors. The fact that Dirac isn't leaps and bounds ahead of competitors who don't use phase adjustments speaks to the system on which we operate. Using the Helix graphical phase plots is only reasonable while assuming minimum phase.

You have some of the most useful and elucidating posts on these topics, Dumdum. Thanks for all you have taught me.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

18 watt OTG power cable








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about 12 watts @ 14v step down.








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Classic relay








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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

I'm a little embarrassed it took me so long to measure phase in a meaningful way. This made a massive difference in absolutely everything.

*If you are not using loopback audio to guarantee phase alignment between drivers then you are wasting money spent elsewhere.* Supposing you take this seriously and already have a DSP capable of allpass filters and a measurement mic, the additional hardware requirements can be met with $25 worth of a sound card and cables. The utter lack of discussion of open sound meter and smaart here and on CAJ is evidence that almost no one takes this seriously. You guys are sleeping on something as fundamental as mounting drivers on a sturdy baffle, or mitigating rattles in a door.

As usual dumdum is right.


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