# Myth You can hear a difference in SQ subs



## asota (Feb 7, 2011)

In a properly set-up SQ system subs of = power and rating you cannot hear any difference. Subs are subs they are for sub bass they only play the bottom few octave's of music and are felt more than actually heard. Discounting for TA issues if you can hear what direction sub is coming from it is over-powered and not set-up for SQ.


----------



## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

I'd have to disagree with that. 

Most subwoofers have their own timbre to them and some have weird resonances that can be result of their design, box design, or placement. Unfortunately, a car isn't a very big place and the perfect install often has to be compromised for practicality. You have to make due. 

Ideally, speakers should not sound like speakers...but we can't have it all now can we?


----------



## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

I have swapped out ten different subs into the same install and all ten sounded quite different, some far more musical than others, I guess I have to disagree

Rick


----------



## Brian10962001 (Jul 11, 2009)

Pure lies, listen to a MOFO then compare it to an Image Dynamics. You'll hear real quickly that they sound quite different. Those "bottom few octaves" are pretty important ones and different subs will play them quite differently. I see where you're going with this thread in saying that "a true SQ setup won't need the volume to make it easy to discern one sub from another" but even that is debatable.


----------



## asota (Feb 7, 2011)

raamaudio said:


> I have swapped out ten different subs into the same install and all ten sounded quite different, some far more musical than others, I guess I have to disagree
> 
> Rick


Yes if you put a sub in a 1 cube box that was designed for a 2 cube space and more or less power you will hear a difference agree. I knew a guy that competed back in the 90's just consumer class and never did that great (his install was not so good) but he got great SQ scores for sub mid-bass and his sub amp was smoked. HE had one of those seat vibro things in there on a L-pad judges never even knew it they thought it sounded great. I heard it I thought it sounded good too. He had 4-6 1/2'' mids on no HP XO with that vibro thing just adding that 20hz image.


----------



## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

raamaudio said:


> I have swapped out ten different subs into the same install and all ten sounded quite different, some far more musical than others, I guess I have to disagree
> 
> Rick


Exactly my thoughts.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Bluliner said:


> I'd have to disagree with that.
> 
> Most subwoofers have their own timbre to them and some have weird resonances that can be result of their design, box design, or placement. Unfortunately, a car isn't a very big place and the perfect install often has to be compromised for practicality. You have to make due.
> 
> Ideally, speakers should not sound like speakers...but we can't have it all now can we?


Two of the things you listed have nothing to do with the question that was asked.


----------



## tornaido_3927 (Nov 23, 2009)

I think the level of distortion present in subs will add a sonic signature to them too.. I also disagree.


----------



## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> Two of the things you listed have nothing to do with the question that was asked.


The questions asks if you swap subwoofers in a system, it'll sound the same. EG; the only variable that changes will the driver selection. 

With that in mind, subs will sound different. Why? They have their own timbre, resonances, and the car/box placement may be a huge compromise. Remember, this is a thought experiment...


----------



## stills (Apr 13, 2008)

i xover my sub a tick under 200hz in my work truck.
that's a pretty good sized bandwith.
fwiw i've also used several diff. subs in this application.

dey soundz different...


----------



## asota (Feb 7, 2011)

stills said:


> i xover my sub a tick under 200hz in my work truck.
> that's a pretty good sized bandwith.
> fwiw i've also used several diff. subs in this application.
> 
> dey soundz different...


A sub in a SQ install does not XO at 200hx LOL Subs play sub bass thats why they are called subs. This is the lowest notes of a bass guitar or organ or the rumble of thunder. In a SPL system subs play all bass even if they are XO low because they are over gained to the point of over-whelming the XO. Just about all subs sound different in a Spl system if your ears can take it to hear them. I did screw up in my original statement I meant to include SQ subs in optimum enclosure size for that peticular driver power and power rating. sorry about the confusion.


----------



## stills (Apr 13, 2008)

if ya say so...


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

asota said:


> A sub in a SQ install does not XO at 200hx LOL Subs play sub bass thats why they are called subs. This is the lowest notes of a bass guitar or organ or the rumble of thunder. In a SPL system subs play all bass even if they are XO low because they are over gained to the point of over-whelming the XO. Just about all subs sound different in a Spl system if your ears can take it to hear them. I did screw up in my original statement I meant to include SQ subs in optimum enclosure size for that peticular driver power and power rating. sorry about the confusion.




Wrong answer. Subs started being crossed over low because people forgot how to tune and it's a lot easier to tune for up-front bass with a lower crossover. A higher XO point will be more dynamic and allow for FAR more output because the midbass driver is no longer the limiting factor. 

Go look at a home system and see where the sub is crossed over and then say that higher crossover points are not for SQ.


----------



## asota (Feb 7, 2011)

I had to go look the sub on my Home Theater has a adjustable low pass from 30-80hz Subs in a home system are a fairly recent addition and really only used for for movies.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I believe it has more to do with how well the sub integrates with the midbass. If the transition is seamless enough the sub should just be reinforcement to the midbass. If I don't have to turn the sub on and off to know if it's playing or not that means I still have tuning to do. My sub install itself swings so far towards sq that if I want to pound the pavement I'm SOL. It's all worth it in the end. To sum up the rambling everyone has a different opinion and no one will agree 100% with anyone else. I stand by my opinion and swear by low q boxes with an alignment of less than .7. BTW, my mids are crossed at 100hz 24db and subs at 63hz 24db. Equal loudness with minimal eq is where it's at for a good street tune in my honest opinion. Looks horrible on the RTA but really don't give a rats ass about that


----------



## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> Go look at a home system and see where the sub is crossed over and then say that higher crossover points are not for SQ.


While true, also notice the subwoofer placement in a home system...it's often in the front stage. 

Frequencies below 60hz or so are omnidirectional. It's why you can get away running mono b/c you cannot tell the R channel from the L anyway. 

Since subwoofers are usually in the rear of a car and because the interior of a car is a bit smaller than your TV/living room; you have to make due with lower x-over points for optimum sound stage in your vehicle. You do not have the luxury of installing a trio of servo controlled 10" subwoofers in your dashboard and your car does not have the space to let lower frequency waves propagate. 

Take your home audio system and stuff it in your walk-in closet, get in, and shut the closet door. Put the subwoofer behind you and let us know how much SQ & optimum imaging you get.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I'm interested in what Chad has to add to this thread. Sound engineers are the best


----------



## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

asota said:


> In a SPL system subs play all bass even if they are XO low because they are *over gained to the point of over-whelming the XO.*


Elaborate on the bold?



quality_sound said:


> Wrong answer. Subs started being crossed over low because people forgot how to tune and it's a lot easier to tune for up-front bass with a lower crossover. A higher XO point will be more dynamic and allow for FAR more output because the midbass driver is no longer the limiting factor.
> 
> Go look at a home system and see where the sub is crossed over and then say that higher crossover points are not for SQ.


Overlapping sub and midbass ftw!

100Hz/36dB LP to 80/18 HP gives me plenty of upfront bass and I don't have to boost 80Hz (and endure the increased door rattle ).



Bluliner said:


> [. . .]your car does not have the space to let lower frequency waves propagate.
> 
> Take your home audio system and stuff it in your walk-in closet, get in, and shut the closet door. Put the subwoofer behind you and let us know how much SQ & optimum imaging you get.


Sure it does. You will have to work a little to create a standing wave...a quarter wave is perfectly doable in the car. I'd have to measure it to be sure, but the way my sub is set up it should be dead even with this diagram/discussion (we have the same car, too)...click through to the forum for a better explanation.










Audio Psychosis - How to Build a Bass Weapon

...which adds to the upfront bass illusion and why the bass level can get silly with only 300w and one driver  The null around 120Hz is already down 9-10dB with a 100/36 XO before thinking about the null.

Now if the closet is big enough, it will simulate a car environment. If it's an apples to apples comparison, put all your drivers in the trunk and then hop in if we're talking about a linen closet or something... :laugh:


----------



## adhumston (Mar 1, 2009)

I'm not going to spout a lot of technical jargon (ok, I'm not going to spout any as I honestly don't understand a lot of it!) but I can say tha in my experience "sq" subs definately do not sound identical. I've used a DIYMA R12, an IDQ12v3, and an Alto Falstaff 12 and they all were different. Was it a drastic difference? NO, but there was still a difference. Oh, and for what it's worth, all were crossed right around 80hz if I recall, but not all were the same when I was done tuning.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Bluliner said:


> While true, also notice the subwoofer placement in a home system...it's often in the front stage.
> 
> Frequencies below 60hz or so are omnidirectional. It's why you can get away running mono b/c you cannot tell the R channel from the L anyway.
> 
> ...


I dunno, mine aren't and most of the ones my shop did weren't either. I currently have mine on either side of my couch under my end tables. 

Your point about the crossover points in a car are flat-out wrong. I've run my XO point as high as 120Hz and had up-front bass as have a number of members here. If you HAVE to use a low XO point to get up front bass you either have phase problems or your sub-to-midbass transition and levels need work.


----------



## asota (Feb 7, 2011)

Still no one gets it; Subs are for sub bass thats why they are called subs. Real SQ systems do not even need subs. Home SQ systems do not have subs home theater systems have subs for exposions thunder ect. Reference studio monitors do not have subs in fact most of them only have 6 1/2'' bass drivers. I do agree it is difficult to get 6 1/2'' speakers in a door play down to 30hz + or- 3db as studio moniters do, but it can be done. Subs were originally put in cars to help out the bass drivers play sub frequencys at high volume levels. Then it was found if you over gain subs you could be heard 2 blocks away and that was cool and that started the whole industry. I do agree some subs are different the chest thump you feel from a JL or IDQ sub is smoother than others but you do not hear this you feel it. I may be going out on a limb here but i'm pretty sure Mark Eldrige would still be best in the world SQ with no subs playing at all. He has 3 subs (1 for SQ) because his sponser's bread and butter are subs.


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

quality_sound said:


> Wrong answer. Subs started being crossed over low because people forgot how to tune and it's a lot easier to tune for up-front bass with a lower crossover. A higher XO point will be more dynamic and allow for FAR more output because the midbass driver is no longer the limiting factor.
> 
> Go look at a home system and see where the sub is crossed over and then say that higher crossover points are not for SQ.


Its alot easier to let a larger speaker play higher into the human hearing range when all speakers are on the same baffle in front of you. You can not cross over a sub in a car high into the human voice range. You can but your imaging and staging will suck 

But ya the OP statement if full of fail.


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

asota said:


> Still no one gets it; Subs are for sub bass thats why they are called subs. Real SQ systems do not even need subs. Home SQ systems do not have subs home theater systems have subs for exposions thunder ect. Reference studio monitors do not have subs in fact most of them only have 6 1/2'' bass drivers. I do agree it is difficult to get 6 1/2'' speakers in a door play down to 30hz + or- 3db as studio moniters do, but it can be done. Subs were originally put in cars to help out the bass drivers play sub frequencys at high volume levels. Then it was found if you over gain subs you could be heard 2 blocks away and that was cool and that started the whole industry. I do agree some subs are different the chest thump you feal from a JL or IDQ sub is smoother than others but you do not hear this you feal it. I may be going out on a limb here but i'm pretty sure Mark Eldrige would still be best in the world SQ with no subs playing at all. He has 3 subs (1 for SQ) because his sponser's bread and butter are subs.


I have to wonder how you came to this conclusion about Mark's car. It seems like a little bit of fantasy was involved in reaching it. What was he running again?


----------



## asota (Feb 7, 2011)

highly said:


> I have to wonder how you came to this conclusion about Mark's car. It seems like a little bit of fantasy was involved in reaching it. What was he running again?


I did say I may be going out on a limb the last build I saw of Marks car he was running 3 subs but for SQ 2 of them were turned off if that has changed I am sorry I may be behind times a bit.


----------



## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

asota said:


> Real SQ systems do not even need subs.


Says who?



asota said:


> I do agree it is difficult to get 6 1/2'' speakers in a door play down to 30hz + or- 3db as studio moniters do, but it can be done.


No...it can't be done. We've been down this road before...I believe it was a Hybrid Audio thread where some people were claiming they were running 6.5s down to 30-40Hz for "street" use. In other words, they said they were highpassing the drivers that low all the time which is complete BS.

Then Buwalda stepped in and said you cross them that low for reference listening or for judging, but you can't use them that low every day.

And that's true. A 6.5 playing down to 30Hz in any car at any volume other than a whisper while driving just isn't possible.



asota said:


> I do agree some subs are different the chest thump you feal from a JL or IDQ sub is smoother than others but you do not hear this you feal it.




It's "feel," by the way.


----------



## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> I dunno, mine aren't and most of the ones my shop did weren't either. I currently have mine on either side of my couch under my end tables.
> 
> Your point about the crossover points in a car are flat-out wrong. *I've run my XO point as high as 120Hz and had up-front bass* as have a number of members here. If you HAVE to use a low XO point to get up front bass you either have phase problems or your sub-to-midbass transition and levels need work.


While I don't doubt this, I can say with almost 100% certainty that you and others could tell there were subwoofers behind you. Some, most actually, don't really care. Me? I hate that. 

I'll admit it's easier finding a subwoofer to play 120hz than it is to find mids that'll recreate 50hz with any authority & reliability. But I have my preference to go with a laundry list of mids that couldn't make the cut.


----------



## Allan74 (Jun 17, 2010)

asota said:


> Real SQ systems do not even need subs.


This is too general of a statement, as you have been jumping back and forth from Mobile to Home Audio, with a reference to 'Studio Monitors' thrown in for good measure.



asota said:


> Home SQ systems do not have subs.....Reference studio monitors do not have subs in fact most of them only have 6 1/2'' bass drivers.


You are failing to point out the technology behind the enclosure designs and tuning as well as other aids such as Notch Filters, Contour Networks, Passive impedance equalization and any other 'Filters' that exist in most of these cabinets, in order to achive the desired response and levels.

The term 'Studio Monitor' is also a very vague term to throw around, as it's not like there is a set standard that these systems adhere to.



asota said:


> Home SQ systems do not have subs home theater systems have subs for exposions thunder ect.


Again, back to basics. A Home Theater or Home Audio listening room is not a Car's cabin. Each have specific benefits and downfalls and to compare 1 to the other is like comparing apples to applesauce, meaning similar....BUT VERY DIFFERENT in the end.

A 6.5" driver in a car door (in most cases) will never be able to compete with a 6.5" driver in a PERFECT cabinet......


----------



## asota (Feb 7, 2011)

Don't know how this got so far off the main discussion i didn't bring up home systems but did use them (unsuccessfully) to try and explain what a sub really is supposed to do. Subs are subs they play sub bass thats why they are called subs this is the lowest tones of a bass guitar or organ or the rumble of thunder. Generally you do not hear sub frequency's but feel them. I have nothing whatsoever against using subs for bass in fact the sub gain control on my EQX is with-in arms reach on my system. But the point is on a SQ system different subs in there optimum enclosers, power and power ratings you will not ''hear'' a difference between subs. Using subs for bass is generally a SPL thing this is not what they were intended for but nothing at all wrong with it and you can ''hear'' a difference in subs playing bass.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Bluliner said:


> While I don't doubt this, I can say with almost 100% certainty that you and others could tell there were subwoofers behind you. Some, most actually, don't really care. Me? I hate that.
> 
> I'll admit it's easier finding a subwoofer to play 120hz than it is to find mids that'll recreate 50hz with any authority & reliability. But I have my preference to go with a laundry list of mids that couldn't make the cut.


Ask Boosted Rex how he felt about the subs in my car? Hell, ask him about his car. He runs his up that high (usually 100Hz) and all he did was take the CA State championship in his class in MECA last year so apparently a lot of judges who are trained to listen for it couldn't localize his subs either. 

Again, it's ALL about the phase coherence at the XO point and a smooth transition.


----------



## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

asota said:


> . . . Subs in a home system are a fairly recent addition and really only used for for movies.





asota said:


> . . i didn't bring up home systems but did use them (unsuccessfully) to try and explain what a sub really is supposed to do. Subs are subs they play sub bass thats why they are called subs this is the lowest tones of a bass guitar or organ or the rumble of thunder. Generally you do not hear sub frequency's but feel them. . . .Using subs for bass is generally a SPL thing this is not what they were intended for . . . .





asota said:


> Still no one gets it; Subs are for sub bass thats why they are called subs. Real SQ systems do not even need subs. Home SQ systems do not have subs home theater systems have subs for exposions thunder ect. . . .



*Wrong*. "Sub-woofers" were being incorporated into "high end" home audio systems as far back as the mid-1970's, if not earlier. By today's standards those early iterations may not be deemed a true "sub-woofer" because they did not have much output in the 20Hz to 40 Hz range, primarily due to the use of smaller diameter drivers. But, their purpose was to reproduce the lower octaves of music (notice, I said music because that was the primary use of audio systems back then). One "sub-woofer" of particular note was the Dahlquist DQ1W which was developed to augment the revolutionary Dahlquist DQ10 speaker which just could not adequately reproduce the lower octaves of music. Dahlquist made an electronic crossover (they called it a "low-pass filter") that allowed the DQ1W to be lowpassed as high as 400 Hz. In the mid-1980's Gradient of Finland developed the SW-57 "sub-woofer" specifically to mate with the Quad ESL 57 because it, like the Dahlquist DQ10, could not adequately reproduce the lower octaves of music. (I first heard a pair of these Quads in 1977 at the home of one of my college professors, and I was absolutely floored by what I heard. Never before had I heard music reproduced with such clarity and detail and precision of musicians and instruments in the soundstage.) The Gradient SW-57 had a low pass frequency of 150 Hz. So, you had "sub-woofers" designed to work with highly refined, revolutionary speakers that offered the ultimate midrange and treble transparency, and designed to play 2-3 octaves higher than what you consider to be the intended frequency range of sub-woofers. 



Bluliner said:


> While I don't doubt this, I can say with almost 100% certainty that you and others could tell there were subwoofers behind you. Some, most actually, don't really care. Me? I hate that.
> 
> I'll admit it's easier finding a subwoofer to play 120hz than it is to find mids that'll recreate 50hz with any authority & reliability. But I have my preference to go with a laundry list of mids that couldn't make the cut.


For what it's worth, my subwoofer is mounted to the rear deck and fires up into the cabin. It's lowpassed at 80Hz. I have yet to find someone who can sit in my back seat, with music playing full range, and tell me that they can hear it. 



Bluliner said:


> While true, also notice the subwoofer placement in a home system...it's often in the front stage. . . .


That's often more for convenience and aesthetics. If you are able, try a corner placement, near the listening position and see what you think.


----------



## asota (Feb 7, 2011)

Buzzman said:


> *Wrong*. "Sub-woofers" were being incorporated into home audio systems as far back as the mid-1970's, if not earlier. By today's standards those early iterations may not be deemed a true "sub-woofer" because they did not have much output in the 20Hz to 40 Hz range, primarily due to the use of smaller diameter drivers. But, their purpose was to reproduce the lower octaves of music (notice, I said music because that was the primary use of audio systems back then). One "sub-woofer" of particular note was the Dahlquist DQ1W which was developed to augment the revolutionary Dahlquist DQ10 speaker which just could not adequately reproduce the lower octaves of music. Dahlquist made an electronic crossover (they called it a "low-pass filter") that allowed the DQ1W to be lowpassed as high as 400 Hz. In the mid-1980's Gradient of Finland developed the SW-57 "sub-woofer" specifically to mate with the Quad ESL 57 because it, like the Dahlquist DQ10, could not adequately reproduce the lower octaves of music. (I first heard a pair of these Quads in 1977 at the home of one of my college professors, and I was absolutely floored by what I heard. Never before had I heard music reproduced with such clarity and detail and precision of musicians and instruments in the soundstage.) The Gradient SW-57 had a low pass frequency of 150 Hz. So, you had "sub-woofers" designed to work with highly refined, revolutionary speakers that offered the ultimate midrange and treble transparency, and designed to play 2-3 octaves higher than what you consider to be the intended frequency range of sub-woofers.


Again all this talk of home systems the DQ1Woofer was a bass module there was so little media capable of sub frequencys in 1977 but the media of the day did roll off low bass 60 - 100hz so inless you had a pair of Technics SB 7000's or AR 3a's ect. bass was rather lacking. By 85 digital media Lazer discs early CD's was coming into play but the bass modules of that time were still lacking the true sub bass of todays High end Home Theater subs used today. I will go out on a limb here (and this may be a weak limb lol) if Manville Smith agree's with your views on what a true sub is and not mine I will never ever say another word about it and tell everyone i am sorry for ever starting this thread.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Why only Manville? And if you're curious, just look at the range of available crossover adjustment on the Gotham.


----------



## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

asota said:


> Again all this talk of home systems the DQ1Woofer was a bass module there was so little media capable of sub frequencys in 1977 but the media of the day did roll off low bass 60 - 100hz so inless you had a pair of Technics SB 7000's or AR 3a's ect. bass was rather lacking. By 85 digital media Lazer discs early CD's was coming into play but the bass modules of that time were still lacking the true sub bass of todays High end Home Theater subs used today. I will go out on a limb here (and this may be a weak limb lol) if Manville Smith agree's with your views on what a true sub is and not mine I will never ever say another word about it and tell everyone i am sorry for ever starting this thread.


Dude, what are you talking about? Do you mean by "media," digital media? You must not have heard about a media form called the LP that is still kicking the CD's ass. I couldn't even list the number of recordings dating back to the mid-1950's that had low frequency information capable of shaking a room that was clearly evident on a high quality playback system. Just by way of example, go find a copy of Robert Sharples Conducting The London Festival Orchestra And Band performing Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture on London/Decca Records (recorded in 1963), Charles Munch conducting the Boston Symphony performing Saint-Saens" Organ Symphony on RCA (recorded in 1959), or the Oscar Peterson Trio recording "Night Train" featuring Ray Brown on bass (recorded in 1962), listen to them on a full range system and still try to claim that the "media" of that era was lacking in true sub bass.


----------



## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

Buzzman said:


> Dude, what are you talking about? Do you mean by "media," digital media? You must not have heard about a media form called the LP that is still kicking the CD's ass. I couldn't even list the number of recordings dating back to the mid-1950's that had low frequency information capable of shaking a room that was clearly evident on a high quality playback system. Just by way of example, go find a copy of Robert Sharples Conducting The London Festival Orchestra And Band performing Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture on London/Decca Records (recorded in 1963), Charles Munch conducting the Boston Symphony performing Saint-Saens" Organ Symphony on RCA (recorded in 1959), or the Oscar Peterson Trio recording "Night Train" featuring Ray Brown on bass (recorded in 1962), listen to them on a full range system and still try to claim that the "media" of that era was lacking in true sub bass.


The "media" you speak of does not contain sub-bass information. What you're hearing is actually RIAA EQ. In most basic terms, it was an industry standard for equalization b/c very low frequencies could not easily be cut onto vinyl or acetate. It's old school bass boost. 

That's the technical aspect, the **** that's written on paper. To our ears, which arguably is the only important measurement, you're right on. Well cut vinyl on good equipment sounds superior to new media.


----------



## SoulFly (Mar 15, 2011)

Though one thing i believe is a fact of reality is that sound itself is very much a matter of preference, i do not believe a single true SQ speaker/sub really exists because not everyone will agree...likely why speaker designs vary so wildly.

I also think our brains naturally have a tendency to get "bored" so to speak with whatever was once thought to sound awesome. This is where a difference in EQ for example will suddenly "seem" to sound better than it may otherwise had before...our brain got bored, we alter the sound or change speakers and suddenly it sounds cool for a while....perhaps why so many swap hardware so much or constantly tweak and why there is so many different bias's/opinions for speakers, amps..etc

If only one true SQ existed, there would be no other and there would be nothing to tweak or configure, we'd all be using this one ideal design rather than variations of so many.


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

I've read about sub distorsion, level, sub to midbass transition, phase and placement but no one mentioned panel resonance. I know a lot of people LP their sub @ 50Hz or 40Hz or even lower but I don't think they know why it blends better with a lower Xover point... 
Here's my take on the subject: 
Upfront bass illusion - Follow up

To answer the OPs question, distorsion from your driver will make it either easier or harder to achieve upfront bass. 

Kelvin


----------



## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

Subs do sound different (as do amps...another conversation).

The biggest thing you want from your subs is to not have an overhang and be boomy. Enclosure and amplifier help in these cases, but an average or subpar sub cannot be saved by the best enclosure or amp. 

So that's the issue....you have this perfectly setup 2 or 3 way system that you worked hard at tuning. Now you throw in some subs and you may or may not lose the fast, tight SQ.

The quality of a sub's performance is more what it doesn't add than what it does add....it's not meant to really add a signature, just reinforce the low frequencies from the midbass driver, and play deeper as well.

As for home systems, realistically there's no need for subs UNLESS you listen to a lot of rap, pop, and want high SPLs in the very deep bass region. Most great SQ speakers playing SQ music do just fine with a 6.5" or 8" or multiples of these drivers in floor standing enclosures of 2.5-4 cubic feet (usually vented). 

Since most of real music bass is *MID*bass, you're fine. 

The problem with subs in home systems is that it is challenging to integrate them and still have very good coherence. If you just want to blast music, that's fine, but if you're a SQ purist listening to SQ music then it will be a compromise. 

And Buzzman is right....great LPs still deliver a beating to CDs in terms of musicality.


----------



## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

Bluliner said:


> The "media" you speak of does not contain sub-bass information. What you're hearing is actually RIAA EQ. In most basic terms, it was an industry standard for equalization b/c very low frequencies could not easily be cut onto vinyl or acetate. It's old school bass boost.
> 
> That's the technical aspect, the **** that's written on paper. To our ears, which arguably is the only important measurement, you're right on. Well cut vinyl on good equipment sounds superior to new media.


Bluliner, you're technically not correct....

Yes, the RIAA EQ has a bass boost but that's only because that bass was cut by the exact same dB in order to cut the vinyl! 

The physical limitations of the vinyl record forced there to be an offsetting EQ curve in order to capture the full frequency response of the music. When the vinyl is being cut, the cutting machine will EQ the opposite of the RIAA curve, so when the phono pre-amp boosts it back on a stereo system, the original curve is restored.

BTW, this has nothing to do with analog vs. digital, just the vinyl record. Analog tape has no such limitations, and can be recorded as is.

I believe there is a limitation on how low a bass vinyl can play but it is so low to not be significant to 99% of music. Most vinyl seems to accentuate the midbass region more than digital which is what you want anyways.


----------



## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

Bluliner said:


> The "media" you speak of does not contain sub-bass information. What you're hearing is actually RIAA EQ. In most basic terms, it was an industry standard for equalization b/c very low frequencies could not easily be cut onto vinyl or acetate. It's old school bass boost.
> 
> You are correct about the purpose of the RIAA EQ standard. But, I would argue that the LP medium does contain sub-bass information if the master tape used in the disk cutting process (unless the performance was recorded directly to the master disk) contained sub-bass information. And, I would also argue that you are not really hearing the RIAA EQ curve when listening to an LP as you state. When listening to a properly mastered and pressed LP on a properly set up playback system you should hear what was recorded to the master tape. Yes, due to the RIAA EQ standard the amplitude of the sub-bass music signals that were on the master tape is reduced (or in the case of treble, increased) for purposes of manufacturing the LP. And, yes, on playback the phono cartridge does boost the bass signal that has been cut into the disk by reversing the reduction in amplitude. But, this boost does not result in every recorded performance having the same sub-bass output level, resolution, etc. Thus, you are not hearing the RIAA EQ itself. The phono cartridge (limited only by its construction, parts quality and capabilities, and those of the tonearm, turntable and the preamp to which it is connected) will reveal what was cut into those grooves. If the information wasn’t there in the first instance, you wouldn’t hear it on playback.


----------



## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

Buzzman said:


> Bluliner said:
> 
> 
> > The "media" you speak of does not contain sub-bass information. What you're hearing is actually RIAA EQ. In most basic terms, it was an industry standard for equalization b/c very low frequencies could not easily be cut onto vinyl or acetate. It's old school bass boost.
> ...


----------



## 8675309 (Jan 8, 2007)

I think the attack of the driver can be different based on power and proper enclosure. IMO attack is just as important as 15hz sub bass.

I will use an example

2 Diamond D9-10's with 1600 on them ported me

2 Diamond D3-10's with 1000 on them ported my badass teammate

The D3-10's had better attack in my opinion while still playing low and just a db or 2 shy of the D9's. 

So install, space, power, and tuning can make a big dif in my opinion. 

Have yet to hear better sub bass and attack in a car compared too 4-IB15's in one of my customers house.

This is all based on an SQ setup


----------



## asota (Feb 7, 2011)

I have a 15 year old JL10w1v1 I got at a yard sale for $5 and get consistant 8.5 -9.5 scores from SQ judges could a $1000 sub sound better? or could you even hear a differance? or would my SQ sub scores get worse?


----------



## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

asota said:


> In a properly set-up SQ system subs of = power and rating you cannot hear any difference. Subs are subs they are for sub bass they only play the bottom few octave's of music and are felt more than actually heard. Discounting for TA issues if you can hear what direction sub is coming from it is over-powered and not set-up for SQ.


No two subs are the same that I know of, but it is usually response that changes and that can be adjusted. Felt or heard, that depends on where you xover them. Directionality has more to do with frequency and rattles, not power. High frequencies say over 80Hz and rattles will localize subs. SQ setup would be flat response, opposite of SPL's peaked response. You can get flat response with the sub tuning or EQ, or both.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

asota said:


> I have a 15 year old JL10w1v1 I got at a yard sale for $5 and get consistant 8.5 -9.5 scores from SQ judges could a $1000 sub sound better? or could you even hear a differance? or would my SQ sub scores get worse?



It all depends on how each is used. I've heard great setups with incredibly inexpensive subs and some that sounded atrocious with $1000+ subs.


----------



## SoulFly (Mar 15, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> It all depends on how each is used. I've hear great setups with incredibly inexpensive subs and some that sounded atrocious with $1000+ subs.


i agree, i have an infinity reference sub and a W6. both in proper boxes though the w6 arguably could do better in more than just the recommended size by JL i'm sure...anyway, i think the infinity actually sounds more accurate in a different sort of way. i really like it but use the W6 simply cause i spent more for it and handles more power.

I also really like my Kicker L7, it does sound clearly different than my others but has an interesting grumble to it i seem to like. I may go back to using it some day.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

the L7s can sound EXCELLENT, just not in the factory recommended enclosure size. Same with the W6. Go larger with both and you'll be surprised at the difference.


----------



## wattsonqurino (May 28, 2011)

I do agree some subs are different the chest thump you feal from a JL or IDQ sub is smoother than others but you do not hear this you feal it.


----------



## Cole/SQ (Jun 6, 2011)

I definitely disagree with the statement about all subs sounding the same .. I have my own preference of subwoofer for sound quality , and compared to the many other brands I install for others , I can hear the difference for sure .. From subtle note shifts to hard , fast , snapping drum lines , they come through more precisely with the subwoofers I have chosen for myself ..


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

wizner said:


> wow, um.........wow. dont even know where to start.


Back away slowly. Don't make any sudden moves. Their vision is based on movement, so if you...













RUN!


----------



## wizner (Feb 22, 2011)

asota said:


> Don't know how this got so far off the main discussion i didn't bring up home systems but did use them (unsuccessfully) to try and explain what a sub really is supposed to do. Subs are subs they play sub bass thats why they are called subs this is the lowest tones of a bass guitar or organ or the rumble of thunder. Generally you do not hear sub frequency's but feel them. I have nothing whatsoever against using subs for bass in fact the sub gain control on my EQX is with-in arms reach on my system. But the point is on a SQ system different subs in there optimum enclosers, power and power ratings you will not ''hear'' a difference between subs. Using subs for bass is generally a SPL thing this is not what they were intended for but nothing at all wrong with it and you can ''hear'' a difference in subs playing bass.


wow,um............wow. dont even know where to start.


----------



## wizner (Feb 22, 2011)

highly said:


> Back away slowly. Don't make any sudden moves. Their vision is based on movement, so if you...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


haha. asota has me so turned around i deleted my post and posted a new one to make the change instead of just making the change in my original post. *WOW, IM RUNNING!*


----------



## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

IMHO different SQ subs will have their own signature. CMIIW

Best regards

Wendo


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

asota said:


> Real SQ systems do not even need subs. Home SQ systems do not have subs home theater systems have subs for exposions thunder ect.


Seriously? If they arent needed in SQ systems then turn the sub off in your truck and have an honest listen. Those mids in the kicks of your truck iirc wont play much below 50hz and wont be able to audibly reproduce anything in the 16-40hz range. Subs are a necessary part of a car system, I know from experience. Last year I went subless with Dynaudio 8's in my doors, while I could get them to play down to 50hz below that they were unstable and began to distort. Add a sub and cross the doors at 63 and wow I can hear sooooo much more. 

As to the home setup. My cousin runs Magnepan MG ribbon towers and has an eD sub to accompany them. Its a 2.1 setup with music in mind not HT.


----------



## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

A lot of home speakers for music can't play 30Hz, check out most of the stuff in the local electronics chain store. I can play it all day on $40 pyle subs in my car. In fact I can hardly get 30 out of a sub box in my car but it is effortless with IB subs. The right box can do it and hog up my trunk, and cost more.


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

raamaudio said:


> I have swapped out ten different subs into the same install and all ten sounded quite different, some far more musical than others, I guess I have to disagree
> 
> Rick



All this discussion and this really sums it up... 

IF you can put 10 different subs in the SAME install, without changing anything else, then YES, you'll hear a difference... 

BUT, if you CAN'T put 10 different subs in the SAME install (and most can't) CAN you really quantify a similarity or difference, when multiple factors usually change at the same time (different sub, usually means different amp, possibly different box..ect)


----------



## asota (Feb 7, 2011)

chefhow said:


> Seriously? If they arent needed in SQ systems then turn the sub off in your truck and have an honest listen. Those mids in the kicks of your truck iirc wont play much below 50hz and wont be able to audibly reproduce anything in the 16-40hz range. Subs are a necessary part of a car system, I know from experience. Last year I went subless with Dynaudio 8's in my doors, while I could get them to play down to 50hz below that they were unstable and began to distort. Add a sub and cross the doors at 63 and wow I can hear sooooo much more.
> 
> As to the home setup. My cousin runs Magnepan MG ribbon towers and has an eD sub to accompany them. Its a 2.1 setup with music in mind not HT.


In Columbus 2 weeks ago I had thrown my new radio in ran some RCA's across the carpet and drove down just for some finals points. The Ohio judge is Tuff-est one going but even his 6.5 for my $5 sub yard sale sub seemed a little low he said it sounded good he just likes a little more. listening later I realized sub amp wasn't even on a junk Made in China fuse had come apart at the element to the base and anytime it called for power amp would shut down must have happened on the drive down. My mid-bass is so strong I never even noticed in a few demo's and judge didn't even notice.


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Midbass isnt 40hz and down. If you don't have a sub then you are missing a good amount of musical information.


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

asota said:


> In Columbus 2 weeks ago I had thrown my new radio in ran some RCA's across the carpet and drove down just for some finals points. The Ohio judge is Tuff-est one going but even his 6.5 for my $5 sub yard sale sub seemed a little low he said it sounded good he just likes a little more. listening later I realized sub amp wasn't even on a junk Made in China fuse had come apart at the element to the base and anytime it called for power amp would shut down must have happened on the drive down. My mid-bass is so strong I never even noticed in a few demo's and judge didn't even notice.


How low do you have your midbass Xover at? I'm asking coz I feel that your judge is not the real deal. He seriously had plugs in the ear not to hear low lows. :laugh:

Kelvin


----------



## wizner (Feb 22, 2011)

asota said:


> In Columbus 2 weeks ago I had thrown my new radio in ran some RCA's across the carpet and drove down just for some finals points. The Ohio judge is Tuff-est one going but even his 6.5 for my $5 sub yard sale sub seemed a little low he said it sounded good he just likes a little more. listening later I realized sub amp wasn't even on a junk Made in China fuse had come apart at the element to the base and anytime it called for power amp would shut down must have happened on the drive down. My mid-bass is so strong I never even noticed in a few demo's and judge didn't even notice.


OK, im just going to say it, NEVER HAPPENED! this is just ridiculous, i started writing a seriouly in depth comment to completely eradicate this "myth", but come on, this is just as ludacris as my hick friend that didnt believe beavers gnaw down trees to build dams, haha. this is a reality


----------



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

My 2¢:

So I am the not so proud owner of two dual voice coil Power Bass shallow 12s (S-12TD). I bought them on a whim before I joined this site an have since learned how to model subs. These things suck!

No matter what enclosure I've modeled them in there is an ugly peak around 60 hz! 

If one could prove that you can't make one pair of subs SQ then that proves that there is a difference and a line to be drawn with respect to quality! 
I challenge anyone who thinks a sub is a sub is sub, to model these subs and show me a flat response! 

The gauntlet is down....


----------



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> some cars have 60 hz suck-out, you'd be getting something for nothing then..
> 
> have XtremeRevolution take a crack at it with his room modeling-cum-cabin gain software.


You jest?


----------



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> I don't know, I look for solutions.
> 
> 99 problems but a sub model ain't one?


Well I wasn't looking for solutions. As for me I'm just gonna buy new subs. 

I was simply suggesting that these shallow Power Bass subs with any amount of box building technique will never have any SQ. Sure, maybe with a little eq and processing but otherwise there is a line to be drawn between these and SQ subs.


----------



## nutxo (Feb 24, 2008)

yeah. its actually most apparent when you hear bad subs. Then you realize hwo good the good ones actually are.


----------

