# MS-16!



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Or more ms-14, or dual ms-8, haha, just tried it and it works!
I know they were some posts about that years ago, none were really convinced because of processing delay etc.
So the idea slowly disappeared in my mind.
But it came back yesterday.

Weeks ago I bought a spare one when I missed the insane refurb sale...
Cheap one, was not even sure it worked. So I finally decided to test it.
First it quickly appeared that the display plug was broken, had to disassemble it to check.
I found half of the original jack, broken inside!
The guys must have been pretty brutal 
Anyway, I then switch with mine to test... that's when I realized it could be super easy to go dual ms-8 in the same time.
first finished the spare test, everything was fine.
Then quickly cut some wires and search for rca, here we go:










Had to think a bit about how to set them up.
I have only one display/mic, but I think it's why it works...
The remote controls are going through the display, so without it, ms8 is just a black box.
The idea:
The master one manages 2 front, 2 sides and sub, the slave one manages the 3way front.
Plugged mic&display on slave first, Calibrated as simple 3 way front >80hz, then levels at -06db, L7 turned off.
Unplugged mic&display from the slave, plugged to master, slave input to master ch1&2, cal with 1 way front, sides and sub <80hz.
And then phone dac rca to master input.

I can tell you I was a bit afraid to turn everything on :blush:
Was also a bit worried about the delay, since L7 adds probably around 20ms to the rears, I was not sure it could handle the added "8ms" of processing of the slave.
But big smile!!! :laugh:epper:

And it's fun!
Hard to be definitive, if it's really better than before just like that, but it looks like everything's ok.
Played with master L7 on/off and fader to see if delay was ok, maybe a bit more delay would help, but good enough to continue for sure!
And that's only one calibration, didn't even play with levels, or head placement etc
My front stage is as good as before with only one ms8 in 3 way front only, meaning the best I could get, but now with added rears!
So I now have 5 free channels for center/side/rear, and since I have a fifth amp ready to go, many possibilities here 
2 way cc + 2 sides passive, or 1cc + 2x2 passive sides and rears, or 1cc+2x2 way active sides.

I always had to compromise between 3 way front active and the rears.
Tried many things, sub from woofer amp output, kaigoss mod, xo on amp between mid&tweet etc.
The best was the last one, especially since mid&tweeters are really close now, but I knew it could be better!
That's why I was about to buy a 2x8 minidsp to increase the nb of channels.

Haha just two ms-8 did the trick!
I think I'll keep the actual messy setup for few days to confirm, just have to fix the slave better.
If good, of course I'll have to re-install everything.
Also have a lot to do, find the right spot for the tweeters, finish the pillars, wire a center, then measure everything, adjust levels, etc










Honeslty, it might be because it just worked, but I feel like the sub/midbass integration is even better than before.
Better stage, better midbass, great L7, what could I ask more?
Maybe it comes from the optimized use of their processing power since it's now more dedicated (?)
Or just my brain...
But happy man here haha


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Subscribed.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

This is awesome! Subscribed too!


----------



## traceywatts (Jun 2, 2008)

subd


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Listened a bit more, had to stop I went slowly louder and louder to near the limit 

So first about the delay, it seems fine in fact, but rears needs to go lower about -6db, that was the sweet spot on the fader.
Need to adjust the slave volume at 00db later. I was really not sure of what volume to set for this one, so just used -6 as a reference.

With random tracks I felt like I heard some artefacts, like something strange in vocal range.
But I then carefully listened to my 50 most known tracks, with l7 off and all sound in front > nothing strange.
Must be because I expected something to happen with the processing time, so I jumped on conclusion on anything a bit disturbing.

In any case I need to listen more in home/headset to compare.
It usually takes me at least a week to decide, I'm always super enthusiast after a big change, but few days after i could go back.

Also obviously it's only good for one seat now. I dont' think I could find a way to control both dsp independently.
But I need to find another display at least, so I could manage them by plugging/unplugging from the cabin.
Maybe some kind of switch box between both cables/display? That could be cool.
To manage levels, seat settings, and even maybe try a Logic 14 mouhaha

It's fun really. I know when I have a good sound when I laugh, when I burst out loud alone in the car.
And it happened few times today


----------



## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

If you added a ctr channel for L7 effect would that run on the slave DSP? By the way, thanks for trying this out El!


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

I would use the master for a CC, keeping the slave for the 3 way only (or maybe 4), L7 should stay managed by the master.
Only way to not mess everything up, is to not let them interfere I think.
Here the slave is basically used as a minidsp to "augment" the front 1 way to 3 way, just with the super smart fast auto tuning.

But I'll still try to activate L7 on both, just to hear the mess


----------



## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

Cool very very good info here!


----------



## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Elgrosso said:


> I would use the master for a CC, keeping the slave for the 3 way only (or maybe 4), L7 should stay managed by the master.
> Only way to not mess everything up, is to not let them interfere I think.
> Here the slave is basically used as a minidsp to "augment" the front 1 way to 3 way, just with the super smart fast auto tuning.
> 
> But I'll still try to activate L7 on both, just to hear the mess


Throwing the sub onto the slave would be very interesting indeed. and if you ever get a center you could then do a true real time comparison of an ms8 logic7 versus no logic 7. Turning off logic would essentially bypass the master ms8


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Throwing the sub onto the slave would be very interesting indeed. and if you ever get a center you could then do a true real time comparison of an ms8 logic7 versus no logic 7. Turning off logic would essentially bypass the master ms8


Not sure I see what you mean... 
Master L7 applies to both now, so turning it on/off should not change anything more than with only one ms8.
With a center, if I turn both L7 ON on both, then yeah I'd get double effect > increased L&R steering or slave that goes nuts?  
But without center the slave should not do anything at all with L7 ON, nothing to push into rears, nothing to push in cc etc. 
but I'll try!

Yep putting the sub on slave, if delays are still ok, and without cc, could save two more channels!


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> Cool very very good info here!


 if you have one already, give it a try!


----------



## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Elgrosso said:


> Not sure I see what you mean...
> Master L7 applies to both now, so turning it on/off should not change anything more than with only one ms8.
> With a center, if I turn both L7 ON on both, then yeah I'd get double effect > increased L&R steering or slave that goes nuts?
> But without center the slave should not do anything at all with L7 ON, nothing to push into rears, nothing to push in cc etc.
> ...


Sorry I meant to say turning processing off on the master would essentially bypass it when doing a 4 way slave setup, you just get a pass through fullrange signal from channel 1&2. Allowing the slave ms-8 to give a complete 4 way non logic 7 tune. And then enabling processing on the master (while never having turned of logic 7) would bring the center and side/rears without messing with the slave tune. It would just pull center and side info while adjusting the slaves tune accordingly. An instant comparison of both ideally setup configurations.

As for moving the sub to the slave, you could even make it a 4 way non "sub" setup and see if the main channels handle the sub tune better than the designated "sub" channel tune. 

Nice discovery by the way! We can now have a completely MS-8 tuned fully active 5.1 setup with 3-way L/R, 2-way Center, 2-way Sides, and Sub!


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Sorry I meant to say turning processing off on the master would essentially bypass it when doing a 4 way slave setup, you just get a pass through fullrange signal from channel 1&2. Allowing the slave ms-8 to give a complete 4 way non logic 7 tune. And then enabling processing on the master (while never having turned of logic 7) would bring the center and side/rears without messing with the slave tune. It would just pull center and side info while adjusting the slaves tune accordingly. An instant comparison of both ideally setup configurations.
> 
> As for moving the sub to the slave, you could even make it a 4 way non "sub" setup and see if the main channels handle the sub tune better than the designated "sub" channel tune.
> 
> Nice discovery by the way! We can now have a completely MS-8 tuned fully active 5.1 setup with 3-way L/R, 2-way Center, 2-way Sides, and Sub!


Ok I get the subtility. 
In a way that's what I tried, Master L7 off and fade to front, gave me the pure 3 way front of the slave.
I don't think the ms8 allows 4 way for front (3 max)
So not sure sub on master or sub on slave would change something.

But yeah that's cool all this free channels! I was just about to get a new dsp to try different things (rainbow or mini), now I think I have few more months playing with ms8s


----------



## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

In for updates! Elgrosso, I was wondering with your previous plan of adding a MiniDsp 2x8; would you have more 'post calibration' tuning ability with MiniDsp as opposed to (2) MS8's? Though I'm not sure what you should actually adjust after MS8 does Phase, TA & EQ. I think you should post this in the MS8 log for more dialog.


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> In for updates! Elgrosso, I was wondering with your previous plan of adding a MiniDsp 2x8; would you have more 'post calibration' tuning ability with MiniDsp as opposed to (2) MS8's? Though I'm not sure what you should actually adjust after MS8 does Phase, TA & EQ. I think you should post this in the MS8 log for more dialog.


Sure! Well I can already tell you that I'll keep them both 
After a week I'm not disappointed. Still on the same result, same mood.
I didn't bother to recalibrate once to optimize, just enjoyed.
Just played a bit with my tweeter's angle but that's not related.

This WE I have to continue a bit on the pillars, but I may try different things with the ms8s:
- put the sub on slave: I don't think it will change anything about delay/integration.
But just to see if I could save one channel for later
(for a real rear 3 way for example, or 2x2 rears and CC).
But I'll lose the sub boost at the remote > baaaad
- play w/ head angles during calibration, since I have two calibrations now, might be tricky.
- put the slave volume back to 00db, the actual config eats some power I can tell.
- try 12db between mids/tweeters (not really related)
- maybe measure all this with REW

About the minidsp, honestly I was ready to go:
I studied a lot all their solutions, 2x4, 2x8 or 10x10 in box and other.
Then which PSU, isolator, remote options, project boxes, played with the plugin alone, etc
Also this ready to go solution: Waveflex Caraudio
But why bother?

I'm pretty sure ms-8 can do a better job than ME.
Some says "90% perfect", but even if it was 80, or 70% I'd keep it.
1 minute VS weeks of tryings and errors.
Now I can focus on the install while enjoying it!

The only minidsp option I'd consider now:
- sharc, but I'd lose L7... and I don't have the tuning level I think.
- dirac, this one I keep in mind, maybe later.

For the ms8 thread yeah maybe I'll post, but it's so messy there 
But you're right I'm surprised, not so many answers here.

Also Andy seems to be busy right now.


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Where to start.
The minidsp gives you the ability to individually time align every single speaker which the ms8 (1), ms16 (2), or even an ms24 (3) could not due to it's design.
That's why piggy backing x amount of minidsps on top of the ms8 lets you use all the benefits of the ms8 but allows that finally detailed time alignment to get the stage spot on.
Plus even the top tuners adjust the eq on the ms8 after autotuning.
Now don't get me wrong, the ms16 is an intriguing solution to the limited channel availability of just one ms8 but it still has limitations.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Where to start.
> The minidsp gives you the ability to individually time align every single speaker which the ms8 (1), ms16 (2), or even an ms24 (3) could not due to it's design.
> That's why piggy backing x amount of minidsps on top of the ms8 lets you use all the benefits of the ms8 but allows that finally detailed time alignment to get the stage spot on.
> Plus even the top tuners adjust the eq on the ms8 after autotuning.
> ...


Totally agree!
I spoke only for my case, with the number of fully active channels I want, and with my actual tuning level.
I'm really interested by all this manual tuning aspect, but I also want a good enough system for every day.

Had a quick experience with a manual one recently with a friend. After few hours it was just not good enough, but it was our fault for sure.
You know what, I think I'll really have to go in a meeting to check the real stuff that you guys can do.
And maybe get some comments/advices on how to optimize.


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Elgrosso said:


> Totally agree!
> I spoke only for my case, with the number of fully active channels I want, and with my actual tuning level.
> I'm really interested by all this manual tuning aspect, but I also want a good enough system for every day.
> 
> ...


It's truly something that just has to be learned.
The ms-8 just makes it easier for the 97% of us that are learning how to get there manually.
Listening to the vehicles of the top competitors in SQ gives you a great baseline to judge by and is a really good starting point.
When it's right, I mean really right? OMG.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

I was very content with my old MS8 L7 and even competed a few times ( as you well know Bret  but I still yearn greater flexibility in addition to what L7 brings. It'll be either 2 Ms8's or MS8 with MiniDSPs on the next config for sure...unless Andy comes up with something new before then  Thanks for you're posts!


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Bluenote said:


> I was very content with my old MS8 L7 and even competed a few times ( as you well know Bret  but I still yearn greater flexibility in addition to what L7 brings. It'll be either 2 Ms8's or MS8 with MiniDSPs on the next config for sure...unless Andy comes up with something new before then  Thanks for you're posts!


You're welcome Thomas.
I was thinking the same thing.
Andy has one in the works but who knows what it will do.
The only for sure about Andy is that it will compliment his line of speakers and forthcoming amps.

I have no idea why no one has built it yet but clearly a true ms16 or ms24 with the flexibility to make manual changes if the owner wanted would be all anyone would ever need. 

It's really just that simple. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

A little slow here, plz help me understand if I've got this right ...

1. Use HU output to MS8 'slave' input and calibrate 'slave' alone for 3-way active xo front
2. Move HU output to MS8 'master'
3. Use MS8 'master' ch1&2 output configured as 1-way front, full-range, to MS8 'slave' input
4. Use other MS8 'master' outputs for sides, sub (and whatever other allowed locations are used)
5. Calibrate 'master' with 'slave' connected with slave processing 'on', L7 'off' (so in essence the 'master' does TA for the whole system automatically accounting for the latency thru the 'MS8 slave' affecting the 'front 1-way' which is actually 3-way active)
6. Refine/tweak from there

? have I got the concept right for the basic setup ?


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> I was very content with my old MS8 L7 and even competed a few times ( as you well know Bret  but I still yearn greater flexibility in addition to what L7 brings. It'll be either 2 Ms8's or MS8 with MiniDSPs on the next config for sure...unless Andy comes up with something new before then  Thanks for you're posts!


Same here I really like L7, and there's not so many solutions for a good surround.
It's one of the two biggest reasons why I want to keep the ms8.
Minidsps have their rearfill plugin, and the H800 has Euphony, but is it comparable?
You should definitely try, and the good thing is... ms8 is now cheaper than a 2x8!


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> You're welcome Thomas.
> I was thinking the same thing.
> Andy has one in the works but who knows what it will do.
> The only for sure about Andy is that it will compliment his line of speakers and forthcoming amps.
> ...


Woo-ha! glad to hear that they're working on this


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

FordEscape said:


> A little slow here, plz help me understand if I've got this right ...
> 
> 1. Use HU output to MS8 'slave' input and calibrate 'slave' alone for 3-way active xo front
> 2. Move HU output to MS8 'master'
> ...


Haha I knew you'd come here 

Yep that's it, but I don't use any HU, all comes from the phone through a dac to the aux input.
So I skip the input setup, no un-EQ etc.
That helps a lot, since in that case the slave does not perform any input treatment to the original signal.
Since I change its source later when I plug the master, this "unwanted" treatment could have changed the later signal sent by the master.

But yeah it's the sequence:
1 - cal slave as 3 way only, over 80hz
> for levels TA,EQ, phases
2 - then switch L7 off on slave (but not sure it changes anything since it's a 3 way), dsp kept ON of course
3 - plug slave input on master output 1&2
4 - plug phone to master input
5 - cal master as 1 way front over 80Hz, add 2 rears and sub or +
> the master does apply some TA over the slave I guess, but minimal if not none since it has been done by the slave already
> it must add some EQ as well, maybe for everything the slave couldn't fix itself (FIR taps limits? pure conjecture here), but maybe it messes it up too (so far I don't think so)
> master manages the added delay from the slave, add some for rears etc
6 - enjoy


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Elgrosso said:


> Haha I knew you'd come here ...


Lol, took me a bit to trip over the thread.

Not a 'venture' I'm likely to take (oh boy, said that before, then I fell into this crowd at DIYMA) but always interested to learn more about the MS8.

I have to search and read to interpret most posts here but the learning is fun and I really appreciate folks' patience with my Q's.

Now off to search and learn what "FIR" is  before I come back with more Q's


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

I wasn't sure if ms8 plays with FIR or not, but: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2117701-post27.html


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

No one has done anything larger because Logic7 is a HK proprietary format. And it is a coding pain in the neck...the L7 for the car was approached a little differently than for a room (if I remember correctly).

Nearly every DSP on the market can do some sort of Pro-Logic/Circle Surround/other multichannel playback- it's all on the DSP chip library. You do have to pay extra for the ability to open those libraries though.


----------



## s4k4zulu (Mar 2, 2010)

IN IN


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Yeah, for this it's important to calibrate the "Slave" first and then the master so the master can apply delay to the rest of the channels to accommodate the latency in the slave for the front channels. The sides and rear should be processed by the master. Ideally center should too.

You could probably build a switcher to use a single display to switch between the two MS-8s, but you can't control them both at the same time.


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yeah, for this it's important to calibrate the "Slave" first and then the master so the master can apply delay to the rest of the channels to accommodate the latency in the slave for the front channels. The sides and rear should be processed by the master. Ideally center should too.
> 
> You could probably build a switcher to use a single display to switch between the two MS-8s, but you can't control them both at the same time.


Configured with front only on the slave (output to slave configured as 1-way front on master, all other speakers including center on master), L7 "On" on the master with L7 "Off" on the slave should yield proper L7 sound, is that correct?


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yeah, for this it's important to calibrate the "Slave" first and then the master so the master can apply delay to the rest of the channels to accommodate the latency in the slave for the front channels. The sides and rear should be processed by the master. Ideally center should too.
> 
> You could probably build a switcher to use a single display to switch between the two MS-8s, but you can't control them both at the same time.



Thank you Andy for chiming in.
Yeah I like the idea of a switcher, It's just a bit over my knowledge.
Especially about the display connector, if it's proprietary.

And glad that you confirmed the global layout, and the fact that the ms8 could handle the added delay.
Now it's not optimized because my sides are passive two way, but with 3 feet apart between woofer and tweeter.
So I can get strange effect, "jumping" sound.
It was the already the case before, and now that I think about it I should try to hide the rear tweeters during 1st sweep…
I plan for an active 2 way soon, or maybe your new GS line... 2x6" as sides and 2x4" on the parcel shelf.

But I still have a lot of questions about the ms8 behavior though (I've made some measures last week end that were interesting but I need to confirm).
Maybe you'll have time to help me on one?

*About the head angle/placement during the sweeps.
*
Since I have 2 cal to perform now, I try to carefully match them.
(at least until I fully understand the effect, I want to stay neutral).
I always tried different angles before with only one ms8, the impact was sometime very subtile or non existent, sometime obvious.
Easy to mess up, but hard to improve I'd say, kind of hard to manage, so I usually kept the "mirror to mirror" way, always consistent.

> So is there a real relation between head angles during calibration and final stage width/balance?
Or is it just a convenient / indirect way to ask the user to perform the 6 measurement around the head for the final EQ?
(à la Earl Geddes)


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

little update.
So I kept listening to my pillars for 2/3 weeks, last we I worked a bit more on them just to be sure the mids have enough volume.
Before they had about 0.15L, so I vented them in the pillar, plus a tweeter a bit more integrated.*

From the small box for the mid, and tape for tweeter:









to:
































Ugly 









Then several cal at 500/400/300, didn't try 200/24 (gb25 should handle it).
Spent a week at 300Hz.
The volume didn't change a lot the response, the width was more my main concern.
If staging was high, with good depth, width was too limited on the left side, and center not clean.
In fact the center was really sensitive to my head placement during cal.
I had troubles to get something clean, especially with 2 calibrations needed now. 
So I started to wonder how the door would sound with the ms-16…

While I was still searching for an easy way to switch between door and pillar mount to get a real comparison, I started to work on the doors.
Today I finished them, a cleaner install than before (when it was just based on cardboard layrs and hot glue)
Few layers of fiberglass for something solid, probably between 0.3/0.4 liter, not aimed since they'll play in their right band, and tweeters back in the handle trim.


















The I played with the slave only, no sub, no rears, >80hz, same XO than on dash.
First cal... width is back, directly!
"7 drums" track is way better.
Like not yet perfectly equally distributed, but much more spaced.
On dash the sides were really compressed all together, almost undistinguishable.

Then with music, the impression is really different.
It's more diffuse, sound wraps around me. But with details. (still no rear)
On dash it seemed more precise, but in fact everything came either from left, or center, or right only.
Now in doors I have more granularity (can I say that?)
Only bad thing is the depth. I guess I'll have to live with that because of my dash vertical shape.
Height does not seem to be an issue apparently. It's a bit less than with the pillars, but still quite ok.

Also something that surprised me, the midranges.
The solid box seems to suit them very well.
I got a better impact than before!
I tried to see if it came from my woofers by hiding the midranges but no, it's the box!
Cool 

So I finally choose 80/300/[email protected], then calibrated the master.
Didn't bother to calibrate a 2nd time, 1st was great.
L7 increased the depth, a bit the height too.
And the great impact is still here.

Now I wonder if a gb40 would be better here in the doors, if they can be happy at 3.2KhZ too.
But first I'll need to optimize the woofers, I always wanted to do an enclosure here...

I also have to try different slopes between midrange/tweeters.
Maybe 12db could be ok.
I could also try a lower XO while still using 24db, just to see if it changes the global height.

Anyway, tomorrow I already know that I'll start my day with some Brass band or Pizzicato double bass stuff, looouuud


----------



## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

Nice progress EG! Hey, for MS8 Andy has always recommended tweets in sails, it looks like you have an OEM sail tweet location that 'could' possibly help with your imaging and depth. Worth a try...


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> Nice progress EG! Hey, for MS8 Andy has always recommended tweets in sails, it looks like you have an OEM sail tweet location that 'could' possibly help with your imaging and depth. Worth a try...


Thanks Bluenote,
Sure I should try the sails too, at least quick and dirty.
But this will also increase the distance midrange/tweeter and bring back some window reflections.
Maybe worth it, I'll see.
I'd love to be able to fit the midrange in the handle in this case, but it's nearly impossible.

I still need few more days to decide on height, but this morning it was quite ok, sometimes just below the center mirror.

It's really a different experience, door VS pillar.
A bit less fun I'd say, but it sounds more realistic (more hifi?)
When I said diffuse I meant that it's hard to define which driver is playing, it's more the whole door now, and even extend behind.
On dash everything seemed to come from the midrange.
Maybe that's why it was fun, to see a little 2.5" sending big bass.

I played some more midbass content tracks this morning.
So about the impact/attack improvement, I think it's a combination of two things:
- Definitly I underestimate the effect of a solid box for midranges.
Last week when I putted my hand on my pillar I could really feel the bump, that's why I decided to tried a better one.
- Left woofer
Before it was always cut a good amount by the ms8, around 90Hz
I didn't measure yet, but it really looks like it is now receiving full power.


----------



## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

Man, I'm really excited about this dual-processor you've discovered. I'll have to snag an extra MS8 soon.


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

I missed a few on ebay recently, but once I get a complete one this one will be for sale


----------



## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

El, I need some help understanding the following : 

You wrote : 
Plugged mic&display on slave first, Calibrated as simple 3 way front >80hz, then levels at -06db, L7 turned off.
Unplugged mic&display from the slave, plugged to master, slave input to master ch1&2, cal with 1 way front, sides and sub <80hz.

1. [ if you calibrated for a 3 way front on slave... What is speakers are being processed for a 1 way front on the master? ] 
2. [ do the RCAs outputs from master stay connected to inputs on the slave permanently?]
And then phone dac rca to master input.
[ I didn't understand the phone dac part. ]

Basically, I want to use 2 MS8s... 3way front / 2way center / 2 or 3way sides and rears + sub(s) that's not too much to ask right? Lol thanks again for helping.


----------



## MetricMuscle (Sep 16, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> El, I need some help understanding the following :
> 
> You wrote :
> Plugged mic&display on slave first, Calibrated as simple 3 way front >80hz, then levels at -06db, L7 turned off.
> ...


The way I understand how this works now is that the Master sees the Slave as just a pair of speakers, not another MS-8.
The Slave is calibrated first to align the 6 front drivers then the Master aligns the whole rest of the system.


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

MetricMuscle said:


> The way I understand how this works now is that the Master sees the Slave as just a pair of speakers, not another MS-8.
> The Slave is calibrated first to align the 6 front drivers then the Master aligns the whole rest of the system.


Yep exactly, but I realized few things I said could be confusing:



Bluenote said:


> You wrote :
> Plugged mic&display on slave first, Calibrated as simple 3 way front >80hz, then levels at -06db, L7 turned off.
> Unplugged mic&display from the slave, plugged to master, slave input to master ch1&2, cal with 1 way front, sides and sub <80hz.


- calibrate slave first 
- over 80Hz or anything else, your choice
- slave levels should be back at -00db
(I just used -06db the very first time as I didn't know what to expect, but only the master should manage final volume, so slave should be at full, master will lower it)
- slave L7 off
(to avoid conflict with Master L7, just as a precaution because I don't think the slave L7 ON does anything on a simple 3 way)

- plug mic & display to master
(only in my case because I have only one set, if you have two complete ms8, you can keep them connected. Just be sure to have only one display connected at a time, otherwise the remote would control both and mess things up)
- slave AUX input to master output ch 1&2
(or any others, the ones you'll define as front later)
- cal master w/ 1 way front with the same XO you used for the slave, 80Hz or anything else
(slave 3 way is then seen as a 1 way, and add sub, center, sides or rears etc)





Bluenote said:


> 1. if you calibrated for a 3 way front on slave... What is speakers are being processed for a 1 way front on the master?


What do you mean?
Your slave will be seen as a 1 way front, just like with passive components for exemple.




Bluenote said:


> 2. do the RCAs outputs from master stay connected to inputs on the slave permanently?]


Sure! all speakers should stay linked to the master.




Bluenote said:


> And then phone dac rca to master input. I didn't understand the phone dac part.


This is only in my case:
- I use my iphone, connected to an istreamer DAC, to get RCA out, connected to the master AUX input.
No need to connect my phone to AUX of slave or master during calibrations, since the sweep comes from the ms8 themselves.
I just do it to be able to listen a bit during the whole process, if I want to re-calibrate differently.

- if you use a headunit, with 2xRCA out, it should be the same.

- if you use speaker levels, with the need to un-EQ/un-TA the OEM signal, then it's different.
Is it the case?
I didn't think about that, it might be harder, but not impossible.




Bluenote said:


> Basically, I want to use 2 MS8s... 3way front / 2way center / 2 or 3way sides and rears + sub(s) that's not too much to ask right? Lol thanks again for helping.


Yesterday I was thinking about this. I think the maximum would be 5 ms-8:
- 1 master, to manage the global signal distribution, and L7 and sub
- 1 slave for front (2 or 3 way)
- 1 slave for sides (2 or 3 way
- 1 slave for rears (2 or 3 way)
- 1 slave for center channel (2 or 3 way)

Way overkill of course, but it helps to understand the layout.
Let's start simple, with 2 ms8, you have potentially 16 channels to play with.
2 ch of the master will be already used by the slave (as input), so 6 left
1 will be used for the sub, so 5 left
These 5 left you can do several combinations:
- center 2 way + 2x sides 1 way > 4ch
- center 1 way + 2x sides 2 way > 5ch
- center 3 way + 2x sides 1 way > 5ch
- center 1 way + 2x sides 1 way + 2 rears 1 way > 5ch
etc etc

I kept the slave as a 3 way only, but it could include the sub too (some kind of 4 way, but I think you'll loose the smart bass boost with the master remote)
So 1 more channel freed for the master.

The slave could also include the center (but not sure it's the best, as Andy started to explain)
So 1 more channel freed for the master. 


No limit here… :juggle2:


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Elgrosso said:


> ......- plug mic & display to master
> (only in my case because I have only one set, if you have two complete ms8, you can keep them connected. Just be sure to have only one display connected at a time, otherwise the remote will control both and mess things up)....


Umm, not so sure about that recommendation when you have 2 displays and mics .... as you say, ya gotta disconnect the 'inactive' display anyway to prevent messing with settings of the 'inactive' unit via the remote AND ya need to disconnect the mic on each unit after acoustic calibration to avoid the dread jet-engine noise. So really, 2x mics and displays doesn't do you any good - ya gotta go back to the MS-8 (or your mic/display extension connections) to shuffle connections anyway (IMHO; lacking a built separate switcher for mics and switcher for displays as mentioned by Andy). 




Elgrosso said:


> ......The slave could also include the center (but not sure it's the best, as Andy started to explain).....


I think not and here's why:

I'm thinking that Andy is suggesting each slave should be limited to supporting 'like L/R locations' of speakers to allow comprehensive ("global") TA / level setting and L7 control from the master. All of the scenarios you 'map' above meet that criteria.

E.g. MS-8 1-way front out to slave multi-way XO for fronts. The slave does the XO, TA and levels within the front L&R multi's (relative to each other within each 'location'). The master does the TA and level for those '1-way fronts' relative to the center, side and rear 'locations'.

If you mix multiple 'un-like locations' on one slave (e.g. front + center), the slave will set the TA & levels for front L/R PLUS center relative to each other OK, but that relationship of Front L/R to center is FIXED. IF the front L/R to center TA or level relationship needs to change when sides/rears are introduced, the master can't do that since it see's the front L/R +center 'trio' as a single 1-way speaker. Does the introduction of sides / rears change the TA or level of the center relative to the fronts? Does the unit 'driving' L7 effects need control of each position independently? Not sure, but I think yes (and if not then my speculation is bushwa).

BUT, IF I'm right, then each slave should be limited to supporting 'like' L/R (OR center OR sub) 'locations' for the purpose of adding multi-way XO's (multiple speakers) to those 'locations'. That allows the master to always control the TA and level for each 'location' (consisting of multiple speakers properly timed and leveled relative to each other) independently as it determines best when all of the slaves are connected (that is, when all of the locations are active). The master is always totally controlling the TA and levels for each 'location' AND when L7 is "on" the master has control of each 'location' independently for the purpose of proper L7 effects. IMHO you had it right when you said the master needs to "manage the global signal distribution, and L7 and sub". 

Did I lose ya on that concept? This is all moot if you don't intend to utilize the 'automatic' control offered by the MS-8, at least as a point-of-beginning; but if you don't want that, why start with the MS-8 as your DSP (there's plenty of other devices that allow 'fully manual' setup and tuning). Personally I love my MS-8 and find your multi-unit explorations a fascinating logic (pardon the pun) exercise.


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

FordEscape said:


> Umm, not so sure about that recommendation when you have 2 displays and mics .... as you say, ya gotta disconnect the 'inactive' display anyway to prevent messing with settings of the 'inactive' unit via the remote AND ya need to disconnect the mic on each unit after acoustic calibration to avoid the dread jet-engine noise. So really, 2x mics and displays doesn't do you any good - ya gotta go back to the MS-8 (or your mic/display extension connections) to shuffle connections anyway (IMHO; lacking a built separate switcher for mics and switcher for displays as mentioned by Andy).


Totally agree, it's more clear your way.
I was thinking about the connections at the amp, to not have to mess every time in the trunk.
An extension for both sets of mic and display to the armrest for example, and then switch them in the cabin would be cool.
(But I don't plan to spend my time adjusting them so it's not really needed).

About the jet engine noise, let's not think that every time you forget the mic it will crash the drivers, it's more rare than common.
(of course it's better to prevent, now it's a reflex, but I didn't do it for few months at the beginning).

For the display & remote couple, I'd really like to see if they all work on the same RF. Probably since I didn't hear anything about a "pairing" procedure when someone bought a new remote or display.
If not, then it could be a lot easier.
Andy said: "You could probably build a switcher to use a single display to switch between the two MS-8s, but you can't control them both at the same time."
Is it with one, or two remotes?
When he said "you can't", was it technically, or in a way that makes sense?




FordEscape said:


> Just guessing here but I'm thinking that Andy is suggesting each slave should be limited to supporting 'like L/R locations' of speakers to allow comprehensive TA / level setting and L7 control from the master. All of the scenarios you 'map' above meet that criteria.
> 
> E.g. MS-8 1-way front out to slave multi-way XO for fronts. The slave does the XO, TA and levels within the front L&R multi's (relative to each other within each 'location'). The master does the TA and level for those '1-way fronts' relative to the center, side and rear 'locations'.
> 
> ...


Well putt, it's what I didn't take time (or couldn't) explain, the grey zone…
Except that I don't think it would be that dramatic to mix the center and L&R on the same slave.
Probably not optimized as you explained (relations with added sides and rears), but if it's needed to save a channel why not, might worth it.


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

> Did I lose ya on that concept? This is all moot if you don't intend to utilize the 'automatic' control offered by the MS-8, at least as a point-of-beginning; but if you don't want that, why start with the MS-8 as your DSP (there's plenty of other devices that allow 'fully manual' setup and tuning). Personally I love my MS-8 and find your multi-unit explorations a fascinating logic (pardon the pun) exercise.


Yes finally it's a really powerfull system.
It could be a really good and cheap solution for multiple non powered speakers systems too, by just using ms8 internal ones.

So I see two big reasons why ms8 is really good at this:
*Logic7*
- the real reason why we want more speakers all around.

*Automatic feature*
- the more speakers you install and more compromises you'll have to do
- the more speakers you use the more time it takes to tune.

>> And MS8 is the best at these, saving time & finding the right compromise!


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

One thing I see that "might" improve your system is to calibrate the slave 3-way @ 63Hz then calibrate your master 1-way @ 80Hz 

Might get even better midbass and integration 

Kelvin


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Yeah good idea, I'd be curious to see how the auto-EQ reacts.
I won't bet on the result, but I'll try (Maybe 80/100hz as well).


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Just to say that it's still working perfectly.
I didn't use this car for 2 weeks, working on other things
But today, I got my magic back.
Logic 7 is so cool, I can't imagine listening without now.
Seriously it sounds so sad when off.
I took some measurements to try to adjust it (them) a bit.
I think I'll have to make some more before, I'll share at that time.
But I'm lazy, and too many things on my plate, new amps so new rack in progress, midbass enclosure, coaxials for sides and rears, etc
So now I just want to enjoy, double ms8, double pleasure


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Elgrosso said:


> Just to say that it's still working perfectly.
> I didn't use this car for 2 weeks, working on other things
> But today, I got my magic back.
> Logic 7 is so cool, I can't imagine listening without now.
> ...


Are you going to Audiofest at Angel's Stadium this weekend? I am sure there's a number of DIYMA members that would like to here this first hand. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

No I'll receive some foreign friends for their vacation (the season is opening )
Too bad, like you said it's probably the next bigger step to learn (and meet you guys).
I knew something was around but forgot, I'll have to check for the next events!

(Just saw July 25th @SD!)


----------



## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

El I might have to drive down so you can get my dual MS8's connected lol


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Haha, you're welcome any time!


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Bluenote said:


> El I might have to drive down so you can get my dual MS8's connected lol


Intriguing idea isn't it Thomas. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

Bret...very intriguing! I've been wanting to do this for years.


----------

