# Poll: What killed car audio?



## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

Okay, car audio isn't dead, but compared to its heyday, it's hardly thriving, don't you think? I'm mainly thinking of how few independent car audio shops are around. Here in the Twin Cities, there's basically one independent operator with four small stores. Don't like them? Go to Best Buy.

What happened? I'm guessing:
1) The demographic shift meant that in the age group typically interested in car audio -- say, 18-34 -- fewer potential buyers were in the market.
2) Rather than spend money on car audio, those with disposable income put it in alternative forms of entertainment -- game systems, computers, portable players, etc.
3) The tough economics made car audio a luxury to be foregone for those who might have otherwise been buyers.
4) Car manufacturers got wise to the money to be made in car audio and found ways to keep the dollars in their pockets with special head units that were incompatible with after-market replacements, options for premium systems from name-brand audio companies and the like.
5) Other reasons that I'm not aware of.

What do you think? I'm sure it's not exclusively one reason, but what's the MAIN reason?


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## midbass.deprived (Sep 30, 2012)

My theory? Stock systems have gotten a lot better in the last 10 years or so. Many people don't feel the need to upgrade. Back in the old days, stock systems were a steaming pile of ****. It's not like that anymore.

Also, the majority of young people only care about sub bass. All they want is a pair 12s to shake the foundation of every home within a half a mile and they're set.

The average Joe Public doesn't care about midrange or midbass. Just bring on the sub bass! These are the same people that think Bose is the be-all, end-all in audio.


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## jm-one (Nov 8, 2008)

^agreed with above


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## hpilot2004 (Dec 13, 2011)

I don't think car audio is "dying" but rather it forces car audio shops to be more specialized in the products they carry/sell to keep up with the vehicles that are produced these days. Just my opinion, by the way.


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## NJPCRX (Jul 25, 2012)

Back then, (mid/late 90's) car audio was so much more than just audio equiptment, it was a way of life. You hung out at your audio shop, you hated on guys that represented other audio shops in town. It was like being in a gang, lol. People were more brand loyal when you could actually be proud of your brand and it wasn't Chinese crap. Your friends were all bass heads, and other kids in town were on your nuts. I think a combination of the internet, and the decline in quality of the big names in car audio that everybody knows, killed the Car Audio shop, which in turn killed the culture behind car audio. And new music sucks, lol. Maybe I'm just old and live in a crappy area and thats the problem.


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## 04DarkShadowGT (Apr 14, 2010)

The people who were into car audio big time in the 90s were young guys in high school and college. Those people are older, have kids, mortgages, wives, etc with less expendable cash. 

I never really saw many 30+ guys with nice systems, it was all people my age back then. Now my friends who were into it back then arent now.

Kids these days imo are more into gaming and other forms of electronics, not as much car audio other than getting some subs.


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

NJPCRX said:


> Back then, (mid/late 90's) car audio was so much more than just audio equiptment, it was a way of life. You hung out at your audio shop, you hated on guys that represented other audio shops in town. It was like being in a gang, lol. People were more brand loyal when you could actually be proud of your brand and it wasn't Chinese crap. Your friends were all bass heads, and other kids in town were on your nuts. I think a combination of the internet, and the decline in quality of the big names in car audio that everybody knows, killed the Car Audio shop, which in turn killed the culture behind car audio. And new music sucks, lol. Maybe I'm just old and live in a crappy area and thats the problem.


Interesting -- it's like you have to have all of these elements in place for this subculture to thrive and if you pull any one of them out of the chain, it falls apart.


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

midbass.deprived said:


> My theory? Stock systems have gotten a lot better in the last 10 years or so. Many people don't feel the need to upgrade. Back in the old days, stock systems were a steaming pile of ****. It's not like that anymore.
> 
> Also, the majority of young people only care about sub bass. All they want is a pair 12s to shake the foundation of every home within a half a mile and they're set.
> 
> The average Joe Public doesn't care about midrange or midbass. Just bring on the sub bass! These are the same people that think Bose is the be-all, end-all in audio.


Yeah, that goes along with the idea that kids actually WANT their systems to make their car panels shake and buzz and will put coins and other loose metal into spots to get that clipped-to-the-max sound. Totally bizarre to my way of thinking, but you can see how that doesn't bode well for the SQ shops.


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

04DarkShadowGT said:


> The people who were into car audio big time in the 90s were young guys in high school and college. Those people are older, have kids, mortgages, wives, etc with less expendable cash.
> 
> I never really saw many 30+ guys with nice systems, it was all people my age back then. Now my friends who were into it back then arent now.
> 
> Kids these days imo are more into gaming and other forms of electronics, not as much car audio other than getting some subs.


Makes perfect sense. It's a shame, though, because I'd contend you can get more pleasure driving a crappy car with a great stereo rather than a great car with a crappy stereo. The crappy car/great stereo option can be cheaper. I'm probably in a tiny minority who thinks so.


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## fujifrench2k4 (Apr 18, 2009)

I don't know about you , but car audio was popular when I grew up because most factory systems didn't have CD players , play mp3 CDs (which downloaded music shifted people to convenience and quantity over quality of music.) which all contribute to consumer mindset.


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## JeremyC (Dec 20, 2007)

NJPCRX said:


> Back then, (mid/late 90's) car audio was so much more than just audio equiptment, it was a way of life. You hung out at your audio shop, you hated on guys that represented other audio shops in town. It was like being in a gang, lol. People were more brand loyal when you could actually be proud of your brand and it wasn't Chinese crap. Your friends were all bass heads, and other kids in town were on your nuts. I think a combination of the internet, and the decline in quality of the big names in car audio that everybody knows, killed the Car Audio shop, which in turn killed the culture behind car audio. And new music sucks, lol. Maybe I'm just old and live in a crappy area and thats the problem.


I have to agree with this one. I used to hang out at one of the local car audio shops. I even sold some equipment for them when the guys were all busy.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Maybe you can't hear your cell phone when the music is loud so kids don't want that?

I'd say most of the reasons are covered, but there are so many more things to do today and much of them are simulation. You can simulate (or whatever you call it; but not face to face talking) social stuff on the net or your phone, you can play games of all kinds and watch media/movies/etc, all stuff not available back in the 80s/into 90s. I don't think near as many people are mechanical these days since they don't have to be. Better to fill up the landfill than fix something, and lots of things are not repairable or worth repairing. So nobody works on stuff then how do they install things into their car. I had to put a clutch in the first car I had in order to drive it lol. Guess it has saved me a lot of cash over the years.

In some cases I see weak products contributing to this issue, you need something people can use, a reason to buy it. Then people can add drivers and amps if they need to. I fail to understand why the few products out there that make advancements are so expensive. My 880 HU can't even show the music info from the stations, wth. Seems like I should be able to use a controller or my phone to change audio parameters and choose to play music from the stock HU, or my phone/mp3/ipod, or the HD mounted in the car that loads from the network in the house, etc, or whatever I want to do. It seems so difficult and/or expensive to do and a car can be a temporary item. It is like the auto makers are advancing into this far faster than the aftermarket. I guess usb or mp3 player is easy enough.

I think people were much more involved in music in the past, I mean everyone went to concerts and bars and dance clubs when I was younger and listened to music all the time in cars, at home, and even a work. I think since the 80s there is exactly the same number of rock/pop stations here, go figure. I don't know anyone that uses a different source of music than plain old radio for very long, maybe due to cost. So to me the music industry is nearly exactly the same as then excepting internet access, and I'm not connected to a PC that much.


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## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

One name>> Steve Jobs! 
The **** iPod started the spiral downfall. The introduction of compressed music is all it took to lower Hi Fi standards. Try convincing a younger generation that a $1000.00 HU sounds better this his/hers iPod dock boom box.


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## MBorgardt (Sep 25, 2011)

Audiobahn.... racing to zero profits... in the early 2000


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Good thread. I think every answer so far is right and it's a combo of many things. I have a feeling the old school guys were far more educated as well. I think many people have no idea that SQ exists. I've had people sit in my car and they're amazed at the sound and truly did not know that high end midbass, mids, and tweeters plus processors even exist. The vast majority of the systems I've seen, at least locally are a pair of low level RF 10s or 12s on stock speakers. The guys that are more into audio use Infinity speakers in every orifice with no processing, EQ, etc in conjunction to the subs.

I was never in the car audio crowd, I was obsessed with racing in the mid '90s but when I would go to the local car audio shop that I still go to today, there was a huge crowd of people at any given time. Cars in the parking lot showing off. Everyone knew everyone. I would always see the same 20 or so people any time in addition to 20 or 30 semi-regulars. The same shop now seems to be fairly busy judging by the install bays but from what I gather no one is really into car audio at the same level they once were, they just want a little bass. It's not a way of life anymore.

I'm more into it now than I ever was in the past. I do it only for me considering there's no one else in town, at least that I've met that's into SQ. Not even many SPL guys either. It would be nice to have at least one other person locally into this stuff. I would love to demo other products without driving to LA or further.


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## analogrocker (Aug 1, 2009)

evo9 said:


> One name>> Steve Jobs!
> The **** iPod started the spiral downfall. The introduction of compressed music is all it took to lower Hi Fi standards. Try convincing a younger generation that a $1000.00 HU sounds better this his/hers iPod dock boom box.


A lot of people think the iPod is to blame for the demise of _home_ audio as well. Back in the 80s, speakers were big bastards with 10" or 12" woofers. Now home speakers use 6.5" drivers for bass. Yet, the majority of the world are just happy with that arrangement. Not me.

I'm not going to lie; I own an iPod. However, it has not changed my mindset.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I believe it's a combination of different things;

*Better stock systems in new cars
*Internet shops killing the car audio shops (there are no shops in my area for at least 100km away ANYMORE) I used to hang out at my local shop before, now it's gone because they decided that they make more money on the inthaweb...
*Kids nowadays seem to care more about their smartphones and computers than to actually do some handywork. When I grew up computers was in their early days and the internet wasn't that big as it is now. Stuff was more interesting if you only could find info about it through magazines for example. 
*Most people only care for subs and nothing else, no idea how things were "before" though. I guess only a fraction of those who's interested in car audio cares for SQ...


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## Bruno Sardine (Dec 19, 2009)

This is an interesting discussion. I had a lot of friends who were big into car audio back in the 90's and it was sort of a social thing to get together and show off our systems, talk shop, etc. Those same friends now have new cars, kids, etc., and seem to have outgrown it. They get their social fix in other ways (Facebook, Twitter, etc.).

Practically speaking, I agree with what several people have said about stock systems being better. The other issue is cars with these decks that basically make the car explode if you try to remove or replace it. With a lot of newer cars having nav/ipod/bluetooth etc. options, it's just not worth the money to the average consumer to upgrade over that.

I saw a lot of people get started in car audio, because they wanted to replace their factory tape deck with a cd player. Then they caught the bug and it took off from there. It's getting so you don't see a lot of that anymore.


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

evo9 said:


> One name>> Steve Jobs!
> The **** iPod started the spiral downfall. The introduction of compressed music is all it took to lower Hi Fi standards. Try convincing a younger generation that a $1000.00 HU sounds better this his/hers iPod dock boom box.


Compression began way before the iPod. 10 years earlier, the minidisk did compression by cutting off the upper and lower ends of the audio spectrum. MiniDisc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BTW...I doubt you will be able to convince any of the older guys that a $1000 HU sounds superior...not unless your HU is a record player :laugh:


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

I can't even express how much I hate the social networks of today. I went to dinner with a bunch of people a while ago. I was one of the first ones there so I watched as people arrived and sat down, the phone came out, they checked in on facebook and ate. The phones came out again when they were done eating to comment on the food. Same thing at movies. I see people checking in all the time and even writing crap during the movie. To me, this does not suffice for actual human interaction face to face. I don't believe I'm so important that my friends want to know what I'm doing every hour of the day. 

The auto world has seen the same thing. I used to go to the street races with crowds of 2-300 people (in a safe environment on farm land) and while the racing was a big part of it, we were there to hang out with others interested in the same thing. You could go and look at someone else's car right there on the spot, instead of seeing a picture online. Most would meet up at Sonic on a Saturday night for a couple hours before heading off to the races. Now there's a bunch of **** talking on the forums about who's quicker in theory but no one gets out there and does it anymore. I'm so thankful I grew up before all of this stuff was around.


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## midbass.deprived (Sep 30, 2012)

analogrocker said:


> A lot of people think the iPod is to blame for the demise of _home_ audio as well. Back in the 80s, speakers were big bastards with 10" or 12" woofers. Now home speakers use 6.5" drivers for bass. Yet, the majority of the world are just happy with that arrangement. Not me.


The speaker thing had nothing to do with the iPod. The change happened because speaker manufacturers started caring what women wanted 

Not many women want huge ass speaker enclosures in their living room.


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

Great, great stuff, guys. Really interesting to see everybody's perspective. 

I was thinking about the "alternative forms of entertainment" issue today when I walked through a huge Best Buy at the Mall of America. Lots of display space for MP3 players, headphones, tablets, home theater, laptops, CDs, DVDs, gaming devices ... and NO car audio. GPS devices? Yes. Something to listen to as you drive to the spot the GPS is directing you to? No.


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## jackedgrand (Oct 5, 2012)

ebay/internet killed the independant shops!!!


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

BuickGN said:


> Good thread. I think every answer so far is right and it's a combo of many things. I have a feeling the old school guys were far more educated as well. I think many people have no idea that SQ exists. I've had people sit in my car and they're amazed at the sound and truly did not know that high end midbass, mids, and tweeters plus processors even exist. The vast majority of the systems I've seen, at least locally are a pair of low level RF 10s or 12s on stock speakers. The guys that are more into audio use Infinity speakers in every orifice with no processing, EQ, etc in conjunction to the subs.
> 
> I was never in the car audio crowd, I was obsessed with racing in the mid '90s but when I would go to the local car audio shop that I still go to today, there was a huge crowd of people at any given time. Cars in the parking lot showing off. Everyone knew everyone. I would always see the same 20 or so people any time in addition to 20 or 30 semi-regulars. The same shop now seems to be fairly busy judging by the install bays but from what I gather no one is really into car audio at the same level they once were, they just want a little bass. It's not a way of life anymore.
> 
> I'm more into it now than I ever was in the past. I do it only for me considering there's no one else in town, at least that I've met that's into SQ. Not even many SPL guys either. It would be nice to have at least one other person locally into this stuff. I would love to demo other products without driving to LA or further.


My man, we are so like-minded. I would love to meet up face to face and have a nice big discussion about everything car audio. I mean real car audio. I have one sub and there is no way it shakes anything in my neighborhood even if it does have over a thousand watts on it. 

Try having to drive to LA from where I live buddy. I would love to only be a couple hours from being able to hear practically anything I wanted to hear. Hell, I have to drive 4 hours just to hear Dynaudio as an example and that is only on a freakin' board in a shop. 



BuickGN said:


> I can't even express how much I hate the social networks of today. I went to dinner with a bunch of people a while ago. I was one of the first ones there so I watched as people arrived and sat down, the phone came out, they checked in on facebook and ate. The phones came out again when they were done eating to comment on the food. Same thing at movies. I see people checking in all the time and even writing crap during the movie. To me, this does not suffice for actual human interaction face to face. I don't believe I'm so important that my friends want to know what I'm doing every hour of the day.
> 
> The auto world has seen the same thing. I used to go to the street races with crowds of 2-300 people (in a safe environment on farm land) and while the racing was a big part of it, we were there to hang out with others interested in the same thing. You could go and look at someone else's car right there on the spot, instead of seeing a picture online. Most would meet up at Sonic on a Saturday night for a couple hours before heading off to the races. Now there's a bunch of **** talking on the forums about who's quicker in theory but no one gets out there and does it anymore. I'm so thankful I grew up before all of this stuff was around.


Man, we are so like minded it is sickening! I am the first to say that I find myself falling more into that abyss than I would ever want every single day. It is just too easy to do I guess. Too convenient. One of the largest reasons I find myself falling into using the 'net and my iphone more and more all the time is the lack of ability to get any info on alot of the high end stuff and I am not only talking car audio here either. Try finding any real info on almost anything high end - cars, home audio, etc. At least around here it doesn't seem to be too findable. I really do think this iphone/internet using era is to blame for starting this trend somewhat. It will only get worse unfortunately as it becomes the only way to get info on these things in the future and it is easily accessible.

On a side note, and more personal note, I am really going to try looking you up whenever I get back into your area again (even if it is years). I would love to here that TL of yours for one


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## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

BigAl205 said:


> Compression began way before the iPod. 10 years earlier, the minidisk did compression by cutting off the upper and lower ends of the audio spectrum. MiniDisc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> BTW...I doubt you will be able to convince any of the older guys that a $1000 HU sounds superior...not unless your HU is a record player :laugh:




Yeah..................... I'am one of those @ 45 yrs!

I knew of the MD! It was not worthwhile mentioning due to the fact it never took off Globally. The iPod did as we all know.

This is Sonic Bliss.
http://www.thevintageknob.org/pioneer-PL-90.html



.


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## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

analogrocker said:


> A lot of people think the iPod is to blame for the demise of _home_ audio as well. Back in the 80s, speakers were big bastards with 10" or 12" woofers. Now home speakers use 6.5" drivers for bass. Yet, the majority of the world are just happy with that arrangement. Not me.
> 
> I'm not going to lie; I own an iPod. However, it has not changed my mindset.


Agree! I too have one of those iPod. It was bought for one reason only, to use in the car.


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## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

i used to use minidiscs for a short while. the only benefit they offered, was the ability to be able to re-record on the said disc for up to something like, a millions times, before it actually lost quality; or, at least that's what was said to me. i used cd's all up until a few years ago, then i just switched to ipod. i do however upload everthing lossless and that seems to have worked. i really enjoy having touch-screen access to my entire library instead of flipping through cd book after book.

i dont actually think car audio is dead, it's just more exclusive now! all of the affore mentioned reasons are legit and they have weeded out the weaklings. they way i see it, the strong and determined few have survived to carry out this hi-fidelity crusade!

sounds good, eh? if i had to pick a reason, i'd say that stock systems got better.


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## midbass.deprived (Sep 30, 2012)

You know you're hardcore if you had a minidisc head unit (they did exist).


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Two things I don't buy into. Internet killed the local shops and to some extent all the noobs care about is bass.

The second is true to some extent, however those are also the people that tend to convert to sq later on. I'm one of those. 

Internet stores made it harder on local shops for sure, but only in making money on equipment. No longer could they charge more because they were the only ones in town. Th either adapted or closed shop. The Internet also gave awareness to bad installations through communities like this one. 

Some have mentions the mid to late 90's. I remember the late 80's and early 90's. that was when it really took off. Every shop in town had multiple shows a year, and finals were starting to get big. I used to hang out at my local shops a lot when I was a kid. Always checking to see what was new, hear some cars on occasion, etc But guess what, big subs and amps to drive them were still the bread and butter of those shops. 

Factory systems have gotten a bit better, but they have gotten a lot harder to integrate with. It used to be the twin shaft, then din, now it's a free for all for head unit sizes and mounting setups. 

I do agree that there is more to hold the younger generations attention these days, but the other thing to consider is lack of acceptance as a whole. I see this in the muscle car community too. "Kids" get brushed off even if they show interest, and only the persistent ones weed through the BS and have a good time. The others will take their attention and go elsewhere, hurting the communi as a whole.

So, instead of hating on the young boomers, try getting one in your car and let them hear what an SQ system can achieve. Find something they could relate to and play it (I.e. not a sq competition disc unless they show real interest). It may take a few, but every convert is a good thing. 

I would also add lack of promotion of sq shows. Of the few I have been to lately there is almost no foot traffic so no wonder manufacturers don't get involved. They don't need a booth to show off to existing customers, they need new potential customers. 

Blaming iPods, new music, etc is nonsense. My parents said the same thing about CDs killing the sound of vinyl. Whatever. If you don't like the music that's fine, but the tech holding it isn't the problem. Ok a lot of modern music has a lot of compression in it, but that has nothing to do with why people aren't buying more sq equipment.


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## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

midbass.deprived said:


> You know you're hardcore if you had a minidisc head unit (they did exist).


just home unit for me, but my buddy had one! he even built a rack that sat on his center console that housed liked 200 minidiscs!


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## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

pocket5s said:


> So, instead of hating on the young boomers, try getting one in your car and let them hear what an SQ system can achieve. Find something they could relate to and play it (I.e. not a sq competition disc unless they show real interest). It may take a few, but every convert is a good thing.


like i said, hifi crusades! seriously, it's the only way. it happened to me? why not others? i find myself constantly trying to educate the lay person on the basics.


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## 04silverz (May 28, 2008)

evo9 said:


> Yeah..................... I'am one of those @ 45 yrs!
> 
> I knew of the MD! It was not worthwhile mentioning due to the fact it never took off Globally. The iPod did as we all know.
> 
> ...


Lol, good ol mini disc. Only knew one guy that had one, can't remember if Sony or pioneer, seemed like a good idea.

I would say the economy has had it's fair share. It's easy to get loud for cheap, relatively speaking, as the shi thole truck next to me at the red light two days ago proved. I lurk quite a bit on a boating forum, and used to in a jet ski forum, and they all say the same thing. Boating is dead. In years past people could do multiple hobbies and just charged it or spent all their disposable income. Now I think people focus more on what they truly like/love. It may not be that they lost a job, but in case of my wife and I, tied heavily into govt contracts, you realize the cushy job you have may not be there tomorrow.
I tend to bounce around. Once I get my new setup nailed down ill move back to my truck mods, then fishing, then guitar, then circle back around to car audio again.


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## 04silverz (May 28, 2008)

Oh yeah, secondly would be car companies having better stock systems. Not great but enough for people to not justify dropping a couple grand to upgrade.
I mean, I don't know anyone who is willing to strip a car to install car audio on any car much less a brand new one straight off showroom floor


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## midbass.deprived (Sep 30, 2012)

And also nowadays a lot of the "big" name car audio companies design the OEM "premium" systems. JBL, Alpine, Pioneer, Infinity, Boston Acoustics, Nakamichi, etc. - they all design systems for the car companies. These premium systems are usually a ridiculously overpriced option. So the buyer assumes if it's that expensive it can't be topped!


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## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

I grew up in a rural area. We had no where to hangout. We all cruised in a strip mall parking lot, went to a field or dock or went to the back roads and raced. There were 2 car audio shops. They both had their crews, one was kicker and alpine and the other was rockford fosgate pioneer and kenwood.

It seemed like every week was spent working on the car or the system for the weekend. Who ever had the best stereo dj'd the field parties. It was a big car culture. Now it seems like every little town has a police force now that they didn't used to and they harass anyone caught hanging out. Now all the kids go to the bowling alley or sniff glue I guess.

Its really sad that the car culture as whole is going away. Cruising is being outlawed anyway. I remeber when I went in the air force and got stationed in san antonio, cruising military drive was the ****. It was like a car show every Sunday. I loved it! I lived in Tcson and cruised on Speedway and lived in Albuquerque and got to cruise on rt 66. It was a lot of fun. I had a 94 Z28, it was fun to ride around like a punk with the system cranked and find mustangs to race.

I am kinda sad that my son won't get to do that growing up. It seems like the only cruising that goes on any more is for old people at car show events. There was nothing more fun than spending all day Saturday washing and waxing the car to go ride around and hoot and holler at women.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

midbass.deprived said:


> The speaker thing had nothing to do with the iPod. The change happened because speaker manufacturers started caring what women wanted
> 
> Not many women want huge ass speaker enclosures in their living room.


WIfe approval factor! ****, I hate it. Luckily my wife don't mind 7' tall planars in living room. she don't like boxy speakers but do'n mind them either.


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

IMO there are a few different facets to the problem. The main problem is that kids these days don't care about SQ like we did back in the late '70s and early-mid '80s. Kids these days are happy with their ipud and will ignorantly ague that the SQ is perfect. Most kids these days don't have a valid reference as to what 'real' SQ is or can be. They are happy walking around in a daze with their earphones in so when they get into a car with an OEM system they are not hearing a major difference. Car systems haven't gotten better (overall) ...the standard / consumer has just been 'dumbed down'. 

As an 'old timer' who experienced 'the best' car audio had to offer ....I'm bored with the crap they are selling these days. People confuse SQ with 'bells and whistles'. There is very little available these days that I'd even consider using. IMO the car audio mfgs are missing the point. They are marketing overpriced crap to kids that are 'full of want and short of cash'. They should be marketing to the employed adults making $$$$$ and have it do spend if there is something worth spending it on. 

Car mfgs have made it too difficult to modify the audio system. They are integrating too many other car functions into the HU ...and with stereo controls on the steering wheel it even makes it worse.


This is just a start ...but it is enough to piss off those who don't understand.


>^..^<


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## 04silverz (May 28, 2008)

Yeah whether intentional or not car companies are def making it harder to upgrade


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## rugdnit (Dec 24, 2007)

Significantly higher gas prices????


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## Wy2quiet (Jun 29, 2010)

I remember about ten years ago when I was 15 my neighbour came over even though I barely ever talked to him, and he said come check this out. I walked over to his house and he showed me what he had been working on for a couple weeks - DIY system in his 00 Maxima. It had an L7 mounted in the spare tire well, all amps hidden away along with the wires, and his external crossovers for all his speakers were in the glovebox. At the time I was completely lost and just said "cool".

A year later when I got my license I put a 10" P1 in my mothers trunk. My friends were doing sub and HU installs (some of them) in their cars. I got my first car a 98 escort and again did only a sub install.

It wasn't until my sub and amp got stolen from my car did I think to try a 4 channel setup for the mains without a sub (more stealth). That was the turning point for me.

My friends? Essentially all of them can't even hear any difference they just say it sounds "clear and loud". When I screw around with T/A they don't notice anything.

So IMO there are too few people in my age group (late 80's babies) that have a discerning ear - we just were never taught to _listen._


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

Details. Details mean you have to study which is almost as bas as work. When is the last time your SQ based install just fell into place without effort? Effort is counter to current popular culture.


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## pat_smith1969 (Feb 17, 2010)

jackedgrand said:


> ebay/internet killed the independant shops!!!


IMO this is the single biggest thing that killed the shops. When the shops cannot make 50 to 100% markup on the gear they sell that REALLY cuts down on the profit margin (which supports their rent and other overhead)... now they would have to sell the gear at cost or below to compete with the on line guys. 

The smart shops are marketing their expertise and install. WIth Factory integration being HUGE. "So you have your mini van with GPS and want to add a little base... we can do that no prob."

Also shops are carrying only those brands that are not available online (authroized). The local shop I go to carries Digital Dynamics because you cannot buy it online, so their profit margin is somewhat safe. Phoenix Gold has done this (the new version of the company). ANd I have heard the soundstream/PrecisionPower guys talking about going after non-authroized internet sales sites. Their online prices are set to allow a brick and mortar to be competative.


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## xtremevette (Apr 14, 2011)

Well I remember it all too well in the 90's and your right...to be able to stop at the local shop on the way home was my little hangout. I felt privileged to know the guys that worked there and they always gave me some great deals. That pretty much went away because the newer generation of kids now a days just goes out to craigslist, DIYMA (sorry but it's true), or the internet to buy there equipment. They can also read online how to do the installation themselves. So in a sense the internet is a big one here to blame for less and less shops staying open. Oh and I don't consider the local Best Buy an audio shop...sorry guys.

For going into the future...I think it really all comes down to getting back to basics! If you want an audio shop to thrive you have to focus on the things you as an owner do have control over and not the things that you can't. For example...have sound offs, meets, car shows,...whatever...get your name out there! You want it to be a friendly meeting place and to attract new customers. Sell stuff that you too can buy either online or get directly from your manufacturer at wholesale prices to pass on to the customer. You won't make crap for profit off the equipment...but that's just it...your not suppose to. That just gets the customer to buy it from you! It is the labor of the installation and tuning where you make it up. I know as a customer, I wouldn't mind at all to pay my fair share if the place installed my system correctly and had it tuned perfectly toward my needs. (whether it be daily driver, weekend car, or competition car).



> ~If I only had kept all my old school amps! haha...man I'd be pretty rich.


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## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

The few shops near me are running themselves in the dirt. They have crap for service and product knowledge. You also can't trust them. We had 2 good shops back in the day but now they are a joke. They push crap products and do crap work.

On the other hand there are some great shops out there too. I prefer to deal with an actual person at a shop. I deal with Unexpected Creations, Don is the best. He has an unequalled knowledge and support. I live in VA and he is in NJ so I consider myself lucky to have found him. Dealers like this represent the good old days to me. Where the dealer knew their stuff and wanted the customer to be happy above all.


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## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

jackedgrand said:


> ebay/internet killed the independant shops!!!


And here's the winner. A local store where I live was involved in a poll on this very subject some time ago. The internet was deemed as the number 1 killer. I say internet, not online stores. Online stores are the biggest reason, but there's also ebay, CL and a few other like sites.


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## juanchibiris (Jan 15, 2012)

I see everyone is from U.S, well here comes my opinion from Colombia, here the car audio market is growing every year, but it´s a shame there are most and most people who prefer SPL over SQ, some years back everything was quality, not just a shi*ty sound


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

Not to make this too much of a marketing research post, but I did some checking on the demographic shift to see if indeed there are fewer young people in the population now than in the past. It doesn't look like the numbers are all that different. (I know--shoulda thought of that before creating the poll.) What probably IS different -- in addition to them having no apparent ability to hear, as detailed in these posts -- is that they have less disposable income and worse job prospects than people their age did 20 years ago. In that sense, maybe their utter inability to distinguish crappy iPod sound from a well-tuned car system is just self-protection. Why bother to appreciate something you can't afford?


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## lsm (Mar 11, 2009)

I was working at a shop in Carbondale, IL at called Stereo One when the car audio business first started changing. We were known as the shop to go to and built 100's of competition systems in our heyday. This was back when Car Audio was a professional business, the salesmen wore suits and ties, the stores were ALWAYS clean and had regular hours. We supported our customers by keeping the store fully stocked, having a 100% full & functioning sound board, taking time to educate them, hosting sound-offs, etc... Most of the shops back then had demo cars on the floor too. Anyway, I remember the day car audio changed forever IMHO....Alpine partnered up with the Big Box stores. I can remember all of us standing at the counter after work and talking about what it meant and who might follow their lead, and many did. All the "extra" stuff we did to excite and attract customers revolved around our protected territories and profit margins. Without dedicated lines the specialty shops couldn't make a fair profit, and once the margins fell off so did the salaries and quality of the employees, the condition of the stores, everything that wasn't absolutely necessary. The internet or eBay or Crutchfield didn't kill the car audio industry because if the protected territories still existed they wouldn't be able to sell anything in the first place. And then came China.........


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## 1996blackmax (Aug 29, 2007)

Good read, and all great points. I also remember hanging out at the local car audio shops. Those were good times, and I also learned a lot. Now days it's difficult to find knowledgable people, even in the local shops.


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

chaser9478 said:


> The few shops near me are running themselves in the dirt. They have crap for service and product knowledge. You also can't trust them. We had 2 good shops back in the day but now they are a joke. They push crap products and do crap work.
> 
> On the other hand there are some great shops out there too. I prefer to deal with an actual person at a shop. I deal with Unexpected Creations, Don is the best. He has an unequalled knowledge and support. I live in VA and he is in NJ so I consider myself lucky to have found him. Dealers like this represent the good old days to me. Where the dealer knew their stuff and wanted the customer to be happy above all.



This is the problem ...I haven't seen a decent shop in over 25 years. There is no way in HADES I'd let any of them touch my car. The few I have been in over the last several years have idiots for employees and push Pioneer and JL as 'high end'  ...and the ignorant masses lap it up. No one knows how to design and install a system these days. They just install a bunch of crap and then try to 'fix it' with DSP. This has made people lazy and the 'art' of putting together a system is lost. The art of an install is lost as well. 'Back in the day' a custom install was flawless in every detail. Most installs now are OK from 10' away ...sitting in the car I don't understand how the owner can stand to drive it. Seams are sloppy, radii are inconsistent, finishes don't match, etc .... When you say something to these kids they are 'defensive' and say it is 'good enough'. (which is the same thing they say when someone calls them out for unintelligible textspeak drivel) People on here post 'hey look at me' threads (some great abut some are a total embarrassment) and if anyone says anything negative about it everyone jumps of them. The attitude is that 'they tried' ....well guys ....'good enough' ...ISN'T.:laugh: Instead a of blowing sunshine up their asses ...tell them it SUCKS. This isn't T-Ball for 4yo ...this is LIFE ...there are WINNERS and LOSERS ...you don't get cookie for just showing up.


This is a vicious circle ....we get great possibilities with progress ....but usually it goes the wrong way. The internet is the 'greatest' and the 'worst' thing to happen to MANY things. Cars are great ....but responsible for a magnitude of deaths. I don't think car audio will ever have an ear like we did in the early-late 80s.


>^..^<


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Automakers killed it. Ever try replacing the factory radio when the OEM touchscreen does audio, air conditioning, and a whole slew of other things? Good luck with that. Heck, I had enough troubles when I replaced the OEM radio in my 2007 Accord with the kit that allowed for a DIN radio and converting my dual climate controls to a single climate control. That kit sucked so bad, I actually uninstalled the aftermarket deck and put the stock radio back into the car just to have a proper functioning air conditioner.

Going further, most people are satisfied with the sound of a stock Bose setup. The patrons on this forum probably represent 1% of the car audio enthusiasts who want good sound. Even then, I may be pushing it with 1% as most here may encompass 1/10 of 1% when it comes to those really into car audio. As I stated, the stock Bose setup is good enough for most individuals purchasing a vehicle, so why would that crowd even want to bother with aftermarket?

Then you have the law of diminishing returns. To spend all this time and money on high dollar gear for the most hostile of reproduction environments is a borderline waste. Even I questioned my motives with the last couple of audio systems that I put together because I truly do not enjoy installing. In fact, I hate it with a passion these days! I really think I would have been better off purchasing a set of nearfield monitors for my new, yet to be leased, office. That's probably coming next, hahahahaha.


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

mr.gone said:


> ...What probably IS different -- in addition to them having no apparent ability to hear, as detailed in these posts -- is that they have less disposable income and worse job prospects than people their age did 20 years ago. In that sense, maybe their utter inability to distinguish crappy iPod sound from a well-tuned car system is just self-protection. Why bother to appreciate something you can't afford?



As one that hires I agree that the kids these days have VERY little chance of any good paying jobs. It is almost impossible to find anyone under 25 that has the social skills needed. They don't make eye contact, don't know how to shake hands, they 'grunt' instead of 'yes' and 'no' ...fiddle with their cell phone at an interview, come to an interview in clothes I would not wear to WalMart at 3am ...I had one kid wear a toboggan to an interview. In one young ladies 'objective' she put that she was, "....and electronics diva". This is for an entry level job starting out @ $60K/yr

When I was 15-16 I was working to build a nice home audio system. I was working 2-3 jobs at times ...this is late '70s so I was tickled to get $5/hr. When I was early 20s I was making $7-8/hr ...but was chasing car audio SQ ....then discovered 'black box' Nakamichi  . I didn't think twice about paying $400 for an amp ....or two ...or more. Making $15K/yr I paid over $1K for a TD1200. I don't think the kids these days have the concept of 'saving' your $$$ to buy what you want. They want 'instant gratification' and will buy 'crap' just to have something in their car ...then sell that 'crap' for a serious loss a few weeks / months later so they can buy a little better 'crap' ...and start the process all over. In the end they have wasted / lost 10X what they could have spent on something nice if they had just waited.


>^..^<


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## noxel (Oct 16, 2012)

Too expensive! Prices barely drop. Some speakers from over 3 years ago still sell at MSRP.


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

Wy2quiet said:


> ...
> 
> So IMO there are too few people in my age group (late 80's babies) that have a discerning ear - we just were never taught to _listen._


I wonder if it's not just that you were never taught to listen, but that you had an entirely different listening pattern as a young person in the era of iTunes and instant copies of whatever you wanted. In the previous decades, we didn't have an affordable way of acquiring as many songs as we wanted. We had to buy the album or borrow it from someone else and maybe make a tape. So instead of spending money on QUANTITY as is possible now, we could spend it on QUALITY. Rather than an iPod with 2,000 songs from 1,500 artists, we'd have a CD or record collection of perhaps a few hundred albums. Each album/CD represented an investment of $10-20, so we wanted to get all we could from our investment -- hearing every little detail.

That all changed with the original Napster and P-to-P music sharing in which there was a way to get songs of questionable quality for free. Then Apple legitimized that approach -- literally as well as figuratively -- by charging for songs of predictable, if not outstanding, quality. Now you didn't have to buy the whole album if you only liked a song or two. You could create your own mix tape with just a few clicks rather than hours of deliberate, careful recording of borrowed albums. But play that iTunes selection on somebody's carefully EQ'd, ultra-revealing car audio system and it probably sounds like hell. 

So my question is this: Can we really expect younger music fans to appreciate high-quality audio when everything they've learned goes against that pattern?


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

mr.gone said:


> But play that iTunes selection on somebody's carefully EQ'd, ultra-revealing car audio system and it probably sounds like hell.


I have some music that I've gotten from itunes. some are flac rips that are converted, and neither sound like hell. few kids will ever be into SQ over SPL, even when I was a kid it was about the SPL first. 

Get the guys that are a bit older, maybe have been through the SPL phase and want something more, and probably have more money too.

There is also a perception thing, some of which is true. When I was at a show in TN this summer we sat with some young guys in the SPL comp. they asked a lot of questions about SQ. they wanted to try it, but it seems so difficult to achieve. And competition wise it isn't easy. Also being subjective doesn't help. It also has a perception of being too expensive. All of that combined keeps people away.


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## donnieL72 (Jun 20, 2012)

Alot of great points on this thread. 

To me, what killed the auto sound industry is the general "culture" of the young people now. I graduated high school in 1990. Back then only wealthy people had cell phones. You had to go out and find your friends. You would hang out at the local stereo shop. Most of the time that was the place to go to actually find them at. We worked hard and we played hard. The kids today are spoiled. They want everything for nothing. Most are content with sitting in their room on their smart phone or computer rather than holding down a job or meeting up with their friends face to face. Their entertainment is in the internet and social groups. Our entertainment was in our social groups, out on the street. Cars are more like just transportation to them rather than someting to be proud of. The people that were in the generation of stereo systems are grown up with families for the most part now. Disposable income isn't there like when we were younger. There are some young people that are still into the stereo systems pretty good today, but they are in the minority.


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## sean (Feb 1, 2008)

I think the problem has been compounded by several issues. 

1. In the late 80's/ early 90's (car audio heyday) the "big brands" were essentially made in US. Now more often they are build offshore. Product was actually GOOD! nowadays most of the "mainstream" product is all the same with different badges. 

2. Product wasn't found ALL OVER the internet

3. Kids/ young adults didn't have all the personal electronic items that they have nowadays. iPods, cell phones, nintendos, xbox, iPads, laptops, etc. blah, blah, blah. they have decided quantity over quality. On their iPhone or Android phone, they have apps, and 500+ songs from varying artists. We bought CD's 10-12 songs from ONE musician/band for $15.00. They buy 15 songs from 15 different artists and store it on their phone/iPod, etc. They can share it and it doesn't get scratched, etc.

4. back then the stereo shops were good! As the popularity gained, every knuckle head with a set of tools tried to make a buck and the overall "quality" of the installation declined and consumers lost faith in the shops/ installers.

5. The automotive manufacturers stepped up their game and developed better sounding systems in cars. Adding in iPod docks or 1/8 aux inputs, etc. They have also made vehicles more difficult to integrate into. 

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

I'm expecting to get flamed for this, but the blame also lies on most of you. "You" being the "older" generation who never passes up an opportunity to hate on the youngins. It seems like most of you feel as though your generation were the original car stereo fanatics. You grew up... then what? Didn't pass it on to your kids. And/or you had other priorities (not a bad thing, it just is what it is). That attitude carried over into the automotive world and as technology expanded, what became popular is what your generation wanted. You had the buying power at that time. The industries gave you what you wanted. The newer generation was brought up with the market you gave them. 

We are part of the problem too, but we didn't start it. We didn't reject SQ because we hated it - nobody taught us the value of it. We are perpetuating its demise, for sure, but we didn't start it.

In general, of course. That said, everything previously stated on here is a contributing factor as well by cause-and-effect. I do think that SQ is making a slow but steady comeback. I am seeing more and more competitors around my age at shows and meets. strakele and I are trying to get some of our buddies into it as well. We're trying, old folks.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

I really don't see the ipod as so bad. I've got a classic 80 gig filled with lossless and they all sound good. Steve Jobs didn't invent all this stuff, he put it all together in a pretty package that connect to computers that work. That's all. No there are a lot of people with an 8 gig touch. That's a toy, IMHO, with more gadgets that gusto. You can buy a 12 volt ipod charger with RCA adaptors and run them to the back of a Denon H/U and this thing is all about SQ.

The 90s car culture did a lot to music, though. We had access to gobs of bass and we liked that. Musicians with great car set-ups started wanting to use that stuff and bass became ubiquitous and to tame it, greater amounts of compression.


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## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

lsm said:


> I was working at a shop in Carbondale, IL at called Stereo One when the car audio business first started changing. We were known as the shop to go to and built 100's of competition systems in our heyday. This was back when Car Audio was a professional business, the salesmen wore suits and ties, the stores were ALWAYS clean and had regular hours. We supported our customers by keeping the store fully stocked, having a 100% full & functioning sound board, taking time to educate them, hosting sound-offs, etc... Most of the shops back then had demo cars on the floor too. Anyway, I remember the day car audio changed forever IMHO....Alpine partnered up with the Big Box stores. I can remember all of us standing at the counter after work and talking about what it meant and who might follow their lead, and many did. All the "extra" stuff we did to excite and attract customers revolved around our protected territories and profit margins. Without dedicated lines the specialty shops couldn't make a fair profit, and once the margins fell off so did the salaries and quality of the employees, the condition of the stores, everything that wasn't absolutely necessary. The internet or eBay or Crutchfield didn't kill the car audio industry because if the protected territories still existed they wouldn't be able to sell anything in the first place. And then came China.........



i used to live in carbondale for a short time and remember that shop! but that was just 6 yrs ago and it was nothing like how you described. anyway, i think your perspective is a very valuable one having been on the inside when it was in it's prime. something very similar happened in the musical instrument culture as well. i used to work at guitar center and would be told of the good ole' days when guys would actually make money. the profit margins were there and the guys selling the stuff actually knew their ****. now they have to compete with the internet, profit margins are zero and when you're making min wage with the hope of commission you attract young, dumb employees. now the people they have working there are the same type of people that you described working at audio shops; uneducated, lazy, entitled kids. it was an inevitable downward spiral and i don't know if it will ever recover.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

millerlyte said:


> I'm expecting to get flamed for this, but the blame also lies on most of you. "You" being the "older" generation who never passes up an opportunity to hate on the youngins. It seems like most of you feel as though your generation were the original car stereo fanatics. You grew up... then what? Didn't pass it on to your kids. And/or you had other priorities (not a bad thing, it just is what it is). That attitude carried over into the automotive world and as technology expanded, what became popular is what your generation wanted. You had the buying power at that time. The industries gave you what you wanted. The newer generation was brought up with the market you gave them.
> 
> We are part of the problem too, but we didn't start it. We didn't reject SQ because we hated it - nobody taught us the value of it. We are perpetuating its demise, for sure, but we didn't start it.
> 
> In general, of course. That said, everything previously stated on here is a contributing factor as well by cause-and-effect. I do think that SQ is making a slow but steady comeback. I am seeing more and more competitors around my age at shows and meets. strakele and I are trying to get some of our buddies into it as well. We're trying, old folks.


I touched on this a few posts back, just not quite as blatant  I saw the very same thing in the street machine/muscle car communities as well and I think I mentioned that. the old schoolers always looked down at me when I asked reasonable, intelligent questions just because I was a "kid", and I didn't start asking questions until I was really in my 30's. Go figure. 

I wouldn't say you are trying, I would say you are succeeding. Both you and strakele's placements this past weekend is a testament to that. What I hope your friends see in it is that yes it is a challenge, but not a hopeless one, and better yet, there are a lot of people that will help you and are not afraid to guide you. Also that it doesn't have to be an all-in-one shot. You can progressively upgrade equipment, change the install, etc. Most people will see the end result and that they could never afford it.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

When I got into audio I never really imagined I couple of years later I'd be so deep into it. It was definitely a gradual thing, and before I knew it, I was addicted. I still can barely afford it, but I just can't stop. For better or for worse.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

There are far worse things to do with your time, energy and money. Think of the creativity you've used, the fabricating knowledge gained, the fun and pleasure of listening and competing (and frustration...), not to mention the like-minded community of people and friends.

I would say "for better" far outweighs the "for worse"


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## HIS4 (Oct 6, 2005)

I think a big part of it was the fact the all the OEM systems are so closely integrated with the rest of the car. It made it difficult for people to DIY like they used to. It has become much less of a backyard or garage type hobby and more of a highly technical skill. Unfortunately, a lot of people have given up on it because of that thinking that it will be too expensive to get someone else to do it for them. From the business end of it, that's bad for the local shops. Especially if they don't have the skill to do it themselves. I see a lot of local shops still hacking away at OEM systems like it was the old days and screwing up a lot of cars.

On the consumer end, I think factory integration has been a great step forward. With new cars coming with so many more features than you can find on any aftermarket equipment, it's hard to find something that will better the situation. Being able to keep those parts of the OEM system and integrating aftermarket equipment is great. It can give you the best of both worlds. Seamless factory integration, an OEM stealth look, and the potential for great sound when paired with aftermarket amps and drivers. The challenge to make that happen does take a whole lot more research on the consumer end but isn't that the whole fun of it. I think because of the difficulty of today's installations, the satisfaction of completing a DIY install is even greater than it was before.


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## Wy2quiet (Jun 29, 2010)

mr.gone said:


> I wonder if it's not just that you were never taught to listen, but that you had an entirely different listening pattern as a young person in the era of iTunes and instant copies of whatever you wanted. In the previous decades, we didn't have an affordable way of acquiring as many songs as we wanted. We had to buy the album or borrow it from someone else and maybe make a tape. So instead of spending money on QUANTITY as is possible now, we could spend it on QUALITY. Rather than an iPod with 2,000 songs from 1,500 artists, we'd have a CD or record collection of perhaps a few hundred albums. Each album/CD represented an investment of $10-20, so we wanted to get all we could from our investment -- hearing every little detail.
> 
> That all changed with the original Napster and P-to-P music sharing in which there was a way to get songs of questionable quality for free. Then Apple legitimized that approach -- literally as well as figuratively -- by charging for songs of predictable, if not outstanding, quality. Now you didn't have to buy the whole album if you only liked a song or two. You could create your own mix tape with just a few clicks rather than hours of deliberate, careful recording of borrowed albums. But play that iTunes selection on somebody's carefully EQ'd, ultra-revealing car audio system and it probably sounds like hell.
> 
> So my question is this: Can we really expect younger music fans to appreciate high-quality audio when everything they've learned goes against that pattern?


It is funny you mention that, because I would guess that most of the people in my age group have paid for less than 1% of the music they have in their possession. 

Your idea may have a small part to do with it, but we also have to understand with the internet came other methods of media.

For me personally, the car stereo was always an escape. Since my parents split I have lived in a townhome with people on both sides, so I don't get to listen to music loud. Others with the same issues now have the opportunity (which is also alot cheaper) to buy an iPod and a great set of headphones for around the price of an H/U alone. This to them is just way more price effective.


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## oilman (Feb 21, 2012)

Great thread and it puts a lot of lose ends prospective for me. I was completely out out car audio for ten plus years because I was busy with career/family. I bought my little car with a system first and foremost in my plans to help with the long drive to the office. Not sure what made me get so stupid with it yet, maybe that's a different thread on a different day. But anyway I hadn't been in a shop for a long time and the experience was anything but what I remembered it being. The inventory was full of gear I've never heard of and the ones I had heard of, I was quickly told it was crap and I wouldn't be happy. One of the sales guys pulled a book and told me " he would need to order me something to satisfy my taste". That's when google came into play for me. I thought hell, if he can order it so can I.


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## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

I would LOVE to meet some local folks into car audio, but they only want a sub added to the oem system for as cheap as possible.


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## MBorgardt (Sep 25, 2011)

mr.gone said:


> Okay, car audio isn't dead, but compared to its heyday, it's hardly thriving, don't you think? I'm mainly thinking of how few independent car audio shops are around. Here in the Twin Cities, there's basically one independent operator with four small stores. Don't like them? Go to Best Buy.
> 
> What happened? I'm guessing:
> 1) The demographic shift meant that in the age group typically interested in car audio -- say, 18-34 -- fewer potential buyers were in the market.
> ...




The real reason we have had such a decline in Car Audio is *LEADERSHIP!!!!!*

"Leadership has been described as “a process of social influence in which one person can enlist the aid and support of others in the accomplishment of a common task"

We as a industry look like a bunch of teenagers jerking off, no one takes us seriously even though we have a harder task of making audio sound good than any industry. Then there is the Owners not know what the hell we are doing ( That includes me at one time! ) Installers that can not install to save their [email protected]#$ing life !!!!!! and do not get me started on Sale people ( or I should say *clerks* because they sure do not act like Salesmen )

There are outside factors that hurt us also but guess what* been there done that* do not cry about the internet ( we had flee-markets ) 

How about get your house in order first then *****.

If all we are looking at is dollars and discounts then as a whole we die...


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

Great thread and interesting points of view. 
IMHO I believe the number one main reason for the demise of the heyday of aftermarket mobile audio is-

The computer and computer technology, cell phones, the internet and the i-pod. The connected generation simply does not place a high value on the things that (for me, at least) are required to be valued in order to become serious about making the time and money investment in aftermarket mobile audio. 
1) You have to value music. Me, I was raised a music freak. I love all kinds of music and am passionate about it. I have a considerable investment in my CD collection as well as my home audio hardware. I read music reviews, listen to music critics and have spent a considerable amount of time seeking and acquiring my recorded music. Music is of a very high value to me. As such, I value the way it is reproduced- both at home and in my car. Music is worth the investment. 
The connected i-pod generation pretty much treats music as a disposable traded entity. They most likely have acquired most of the music they listen to for free. You simply do not value something that you get for free over a shiny new CD complete with label, case and notes. Music on a solid state drive is somewhat disposable. It is hardly a prized possession. Easy come easy go. It is not valued highly enough to make the investment to reproduce it with any quality. 
2) The connected generation values staying connected. They not only value staying connected above music, a recent poll mentioned that a majority of young people would rather have a cell phone than a car! Pretty hard to value mobile audio when you don't even value having a car to install it in! 
3) Technology has made electronics a commodity. More than ever before, computers, flat screen tvs, smart phones and audio equipment are commodities. There is not as much difference in the quality of the delivered result among the competing brands as there was in recent history. As such, there is a lack of motivation in developing your consumer skills to understand the quality of the electronics you are purchasing. They are common commodities in most people's minds. As such, they are "all the same" and not worthy of an investment in time or money. When I entered mobile audio I was coming from a home audio background where I was a hi-fi geek. I read about the best brands of home audio products and transfered that into the mobile environment whan I got my first car. Most teenagers today have a glorified clock radio they play their i-pods through. So when you add it up, they don't value music, they don't value cars and they don't value electronics. That my friends makes for a pretty tough sell.


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

The biggest problem I see is that years ago you had a lot of smaller companies ran by car audio enthusiasts that put out great products. One by one they were bought out by bigger companies interested only in bottom line sales. The high end offerings were cut and everything is geared to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Polk Audio is a prime example. The Signature Reference line of speakers was one of the best on the market. DEI bought them out and the first thing they did after laying off the car audio department was kill the SR line. Now multiply that times PPI, Orion, MB Quart and so on and you get the picture. 

Not sure if that was what killed car audio or not but I know it didnt help any.


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## Ultimateherts (Nov 13, 2006)

The increase of online porn... A lot less time to spend on car audio


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

avanti1960 said:


> 2) The connected generation values staying connected. They not only value staying connected above music, *a recent poll mentioned that a majority of young people would rather have a cell phone than a car!* Pretty hard to value mobile audio when you don't even value having a car to install it in!


Calling BS on this.

First, what poll was that from?

Second, let's actually think about that for a minute. Why do you think people in general would value a phone over a car? You cannot function in the modern day world without a phone. If you don't own a car, you can still get by. Carpools, public trans, biking, walking. No phone? You are SOL. 

I can agree with your other two points however. But this 'valuing' a phone over a car (as you interpreted it) is just silly.


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## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

I think one of the declines in sq systems in particular; from a younger persons standpoint, is the myths. I hear them all the time. They say that an sq system isn't loud. Yet, I am sure some of you have systems approaching 140db. That should be loud enough for anyone. They say it is only made to play a certain kind of music. We all know this is ******** yet I hear it repeated all the time. Sq cars are only for old people. Who the hell came up with this? I have to be collecting social security to have a nice stereo. My personal favorite...SQ is too expensive. It makes me want to falcon punch a baby seal when someone says this and will turn around and spend 2k on an amp for speakers that reproduce less than 2% of the total freq. bandwidth of their music. 
These are the things you need to dispel. Young people need to be taught the value of sq. We need to have a round table with sq guys and spl guys together. We each have differing opinions on both sides but I can't imagine that we don't have something to teach each other. I have seen posts here and on the other site I frequent (SMD) that make me question. (SQvsSPL) Where the hell is all this animosity coming from? When did it start? What can be done to solve it? 
I believe most young people are into bass because it is more physical. There is vibration, air movement, physical changes. Listening to an sq system can be more of an emotional, visceral experience. I believe it is harder for a younger person to slow down and take it in. It's not as important where the instruments are located, how wide or deep the soundstage. Rather, happy in the thought that it is just there. As someone mentioned before in the thread, listening critically is a learned skill. Not everyone will have the passion or inclination for such an exercise, let alone some of the means I see you guys go through just to do that in a vehicle.
The music culture has changed drastically in the past 20 years and has surely contributed somewhat to the death you guys have perceived in car audio. Dubstep...Dubstep is a plague upon mankind. Hip Hop and Rap with few exceptions has tumbled further into the abyss with little hope of revival. Thank God for Decaf. Without him I would still be on immortal technique and KRS one.lol He makes that music palatable.
On other fronts artists like Grizzly Bear, Department of Eagles, and the Fleet Foxes have given me new hope. I was truly in a state of malaise then I heard Beirut, and my passion for music was rekindled. It was the first time I sat in the car listening and thought. "Holy ****.", there is still amazing stuff out there I haven't even discovered yet." I bring these groups up to point out that a vast majority of really great music is is still in the minority. I don't see rap being very difficult to reproduce given all you need is some subs. The Horns on the album Rip Tide or the song "Nantes", are a whole other matter altogether. We need to get people interested in the music itself rather than just having something to listen to. Great music demands a great stereo; I think. With heavily compressed bubble gum pop and hype artist ******** that is out I see why some people just want subs. It's all you really need.


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## tnaudio (Mar 4, 2012)

Nothing killed car audio! It is alive and well if you ask me. Now there has been a major decline in high end car audio and custom installations. I believe that came from the manufacturers in general. They cut out the costs of building demo cars and going to shows to create excitement. We just came back from a great turnout Meca world finals. There were 2 manufacture booths there...Linear Power/Blues and PHD. I'm sure everyone remembers 30 plus manufacturer booths and finals of the old days.

Bring back the vendor booths and awesome demo vehicles to create excitement for spectators! 

Also cash prizes at sound offs. Perry show used to have 5000 cash prize! Manufacture sponsored of course. You don't really think Biggs, Buwalda, Eldridge, Brown, Ligget, and others built those cars for the trophies do you?


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

donnieL72 said:


> Alot of great points on this thread.
> 
> To me, what killed the auto sound industry is the general "culture" of the young people now. I graduated high school in 1990. Back then only wealthy people had cell phones. You had to go out and find your friends. You would hang out at the local stereo shop. Most of the time that was the place to go to actually find them at. We worked hard and we played hard. The kids today are spoiled. They want everything for nothing. Most are content with sitting in their room on their smart phone or computer rather than holding down a job or meeting up with their friends face to face. Their entertainment is in the internet and social groups. Our entertainment was in our social groups, out on the street. Cars are more like just transportation to them rather than someting to be proud of. The people that were in the generation of stereo systems are grown up with families for the most part now. Disposable income isn't there like when we were younger. There are some young people that are still into the stereo systems pretty good today, but they are in the minority.


This, add infinitum. 

The only reason car audio, and everything else for that matter, is the way it is now is because kids these days are being dumbed down from day one. They are spoiled rotten with "smart phones" and have no values or interests. Young people just want to get drunk and **** each other every night, then Tweet about it the next morning.

We have become a sickening culture. If I didn't have my amps and speakers I would have blown my ****ing head off already. I'm tired of watching these useless bodies shuffle around with their phones out, knowing not a single one of them has any real skills or desire to learn.

It's ridiculous that I'm only 19, been into car audio heavily for about a year or two, and I've gone from basic installation to full blown amplifier repair all by myself. Meanwhile, there are people my age who don't know how to set a thermostat in their homes...

The internet didn't kill the industry, the iPod didn't kill the industry, people who push kids out of their cunts and don't raise them to be anything other than a ****ing animal killed the industry and the rest of the country.

God damnit I'm mad now.

However, like Brett said, all that has happened is the weaklings are weeded out. Morons stay content with their amp/sub/spaghetti wiring combo, while the folks with real interest enjoy their proper systems.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

SaturnSL1 said:


> This, add infinitum.
> 
> The only reason car audio, and everything else for that matter, is the way it is now is because kids these days are being dumbed down from day one. They are spoiled rotten with "smart phones" and have no values or interests. Young people just want to get drunk and **** each other every night, then Tweet about it the next morning.
> 
> ...



:laugh::laugh:

Holy **** man you have some serious issues. Who's your doctor and why did he take you off your meds?


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

Man, sometimes I wonder if I do need meds but screw that. All I need is to play Another Brick In The Wall at full volume, the solo towards the end brings me right back down to Earth.

I don't need no drugs to calm me! Don't think I need anything at all...


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

^ if you are referring to the live version, the ending is just stellar. Will send chills down your spine


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## donnieL72 (Jun 20, 2012)

millerlyte said:


> :laugh::laugh:
> 
> Holy **** man you have some serious issues. Who's your doctor and why did he take you off your meds?


Sometimes the meds work, sometimes they don't....

Bipolar is a ***** sometimes.....:laugh::laugh:


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

donnieL72 said:


> Sometimes the meds work, sometimes they don't....
> 
> Bipolar is a ***** sometimes.....:laugh::laugh:


I hate being bipolar is ****ING AWESOME!!!


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## donnieL72 (Jun 20, 2012)

AWC said:


> I hate being bipolar is ****ING AWESOME!!!


YEP.....NOPE You get it..


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## lsm (Mar 11, 2009)

noxel said:


> Too expensive! Prices barely drop. Some speakers from over 3 years ago still sell at MSRP.


You obviously never bought equipment in the 80/90's... The RF Punch 30 retailed around $300 for 15watts x2. Power used to be VERY EXPENSIVE!


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

@Saturn
Dude I like you .you alright. :thumbup::beer:

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2


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## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

SaturnSL1 said:


> This, add infinitum.
> 
> The only reason car audio, and everything else for that matter, is the way it is now is because kids these days are being dumbed down from day one. They are spoiled rotten with "smart phones" and have no values or interests. Young people just want to get drunk and **** each other every night, then Tweet about it the next morning


Getting drunk and ****ing high school chicks was my favorite part of high school....Just saying. I enjoyed my car stereo when I was doing it too!


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

chaser9478 said:


> Getting drunk and ****ing high school chicks was my favorite part of high school....Just saying. I enjoyed my car stereo when I was doing it too!


Its my favorite part of being middle aged


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## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

I am 34, when I have my mid life crisis its gonna be bad.

I wish I was in highschool these days. If the hot older teacher wanted to screw me Id keep my damn mouth shut. Have you seen the latest one? The NFL cheer leader?


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## dkindig (Oct 7, 2009)

evo9 said:


> One name>> Steve Jobs!
> The **** iPod started the spiral downfall. The introduction of compressed music is all it took to lower Hi Fi standards. Try convincing a younger generation that a $1000.00 HU sounds better this his/hers iPod dock boom box.


AMEN!!!!!

I grew up on audiophile kits like Dynaco. Back then the REAL names in quality audio were McIntosh, Marantz, SAE, Klipsch, Altec-Lansing, Thorens, Dokorder, Nakamichi, Magneplanar, etc, etc. Listeners were concerned with getting every nuance out of their music sources. Listeners actually wanted faithful, accurate reproduction of the sources.

Today it's all about convenience and cramming as much content into as portable a device as possible and listening to crap compressed source material on chintzy little headphones. I freaked a coworker out one day by picking one of their favorite songs and playing it for them at five different compression levels. They had no idea what was missing from the original material.

That being said, I DO use an iPod, simply for the convenience. However, I use a 160GB Classic and I have ripped my entire music collection to lossless format for archival and convert to MP3 at 320kbps so that it is pretty much indistinguishable from CD-quality.

Most of the population today is perfectly happy with 64-128kbps MP3 files and don't even know what they're missing...


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

dkindig said:


> AMEN!!!!!
> 
> I grew up on audiophile kits like Dyanco. Back then the REAL names in quality audio were McIntosh, Marantz, SAE, Klipsch, Altec-Lansing, Thorens, Dokorder, Nakamichi, etc, etc. Listeners were concerned with getting every nuance out of their music sources. Listeners actually wanted faithful, accurate reproduction of the sources.
> 
> ...


This is me, right here. I couldn't have put it any better if I had tried. Well, said and unfortunately so true.


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## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

FWIW, I refuse to buy an Ipod. I buy about $75 worth of cd's every month used from amazon. I love it. I can get about 20-25 cd's. I have got some great stuff for around 2.50 ea.

My latest was Muddy Waters and the Rolling Stones live, best $3.00 ever.

I am keepin it real!


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

I think the internet killed it because back in the late 80's early 90's there wasnt any internet so it forced kids outside. Me and my friends were always out cruising, hanging out, looking for something to do. Our cars were our main focus, not tweeting and texting. We were wanderers and explorers looking for some excitement and car audio got us noticed.


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

chaser9478 said:


> Getting drunk and ****ing high school chicks was my favorite part of high school....Just saying. I enjoyed my car stereo when I was doing it too!


There is nothing wrong with getting drunk and having sex, but when that is your whole objective in life it's a problem. Learn a ****ing trade or something.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

SaturnSL1 said:


> There is nothing wrong with getting drunk and having sex, but when that is your whole objective in life it's a problem. Learn a ****ing trade or something.


Learn a sense of humor or some shi. He said "when I was in high school". What high-school student wasn't focused on sex? If you say you, I'm going to make fun of the gheyness....fair warning...


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## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

I really thought car audio was dead and only found in big box stores. Then I discovered DIYMA. Sure its different but its still here. Everything changes. One thing I noticed when I was in the miltary was no new place is as good as the old place. I think everyone misses the way things were.

I sure wish I was still like I was in the 90's, not being disabled is closer to the top of the list than car audio is though......

Who knows maybe in 20yrs we will be communicating via a new means about how we miss the diyma days.....


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

AWC said:


> Learn a sense of humor or some shi. He said "when I was in high school". What high-school student wasn't focused on sex? If you say you, I'm going to make fun of the gheyness....fair warning...


I wasn't making fun of him and telling him to learn a trade, I am speaking in general.

I don't need to learn a sense of humor, there is nothing to laugh about. We are raising, or not raising for that matter, a shallow generation of people. Children are our future and our future looks pretty ****ing stupid.

No, getting ****ed up and having sex with any ho that will let me was not my main objective in high school. You can make fun of me and call me a *** all you wish, its not like I give a **** what some ******* on a forum said about me.

Towards the end of high school audio became my passion. It's one of, if not the most important thing in my life and because of it I have became 10 times as smart as I was before it. Maybe to you that's lame, maybe I'm taking it too seriously, but I just wish some people would have something in their life that they are passionate about and feel proud of. 


"fair warning" haha, yeah ok.


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## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

When I was in HS, life was a party. I knew then that my trade was going to be in the military. I turned 2 in the desert. Less than 2yrs out of HS I was in Operatio Desert Fox. Not many people remember that one but it was the first time I put on a gas mask in real world conditions. It was a false alarm but at the time it was terrifying. It was during the times like that in my life I was glad that I lived my life to the fullest.

Fast forward a few years I found myself in Iraq. During the cool down periods in between some pretty intense battles it was music I used to come down.

Now days my deployments are over but I don't know if my war will ever end. I use car audio both building and listening to, to help me make it through. I have learned a great deal and Have a great system and made some friends. All in all I think its great considering the alternative. Many folks in my position use drinking, drugs or suicide to make it.

So yeah, I am pretty passionate about my hobby.


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

I heard you on the wireless back in fifty two
Lying awake intent at tuning in on you
If I was young it didn't stop you coming through

Oh-a oh

They took the credit for your second symphony
Rewritten by machine and new technology
And now I understand the problems you can see

Oh-a oh
I met your children
Oh-a oh
What did you tell them?

Video killed the audio cars
Video killed the audio cars

No SQ from the factory
Just bluetooth, nav, and USB

Ohhh... oh oh oh


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## Ultimateherts (Nov 13, 2006)

Richv72 said:


> I think the internet killed it because back in the late 80's early 90's there wasnt any internet so it forced kids outside. Me and my friends were always out cruising, hanging out, looking for something to do. Our cars were our main focus, not tweeting and texting. We were wanderers and explorers looking for some excitement and car audio got us noticed.


People still do this today do they not? Back to my poin t a few pages ago internet porn goes up and car audio goes down! Anything can said on why it went away as there is no one definitive answer!!!


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

SaturnSL1 said:


> I wasn't making fun of him and telling him to learn a trade, I am speaking in general.
> 
> I don't need to learn a sense of humor, there is nothing to laugh about. We are raising, or not raising for that matter, a shallow generation of people. Children are our future and our future looks pretty ****ing stupid.
> 
> ...


Now I'm a jack-ass? Jesus, dude. Cool it. If you can't talk civil, what business do you have judging the merits of any society. I'm glad you think you're smart. However, if audio is the most important thing in your life, you are ****ing up your life. 

Just because he made a joke and you pulled the self-superior card doesn't make it so. Most people who need to make themselves better than the next guy, on an internet forum, need to improve the workings in their head before correcting others. Again, lighten up Francis!



chaser9478 said:


> When I was in HS, life was a party. I knew then that my trade was going to be in the military. I turned 2 in the desert. Less than 2yrs out of HS I was in Operatio Desert Fox. Not many people remember that one but it was the first time I put on a gas mask in real world conditions. It was a false alarm but at the time it was terrifying. It was during the times like that in my life I was glad that I lived my life to the fullest.
> 
> Fast forward a few years I found myself in Iraq. During the cool down periods in between some pretty intense battles it was music I used to come down.
> 
> ...


This is no joke. I was in the trenches (ok, bunkers but trenches makes it sound bad-ass) when the first of Sadam's scuds were going off and they said they may be biological weapons. There is nothing like pure fear that you can do nothing about in a situation surrounded by people who are afraid and can do nothing about...I'll never forget the all-aclear. There were PVT's that literally pissed themselves. Many people would say they weren't courageous but they held their weapons at the ready and they pushed through the fear and embarrassment and did their duty. Nobody made fun of them and it made me realize that people can be a lot better than we think. We just don't challenge a person's character that often so that their real qualities become evident.


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## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

Who's to say car audio is dead? Back in the day audio control was the only dsp you could get. You had to use a screw driver and pop the trunk to adjust it. Look at how many great dsp's are out now. Look at the quality of stuff you can get. Even some of the big names that went to **** are making a come back. I like some of the new ss and ppi amps. There are also products for every budget. I remember when every good amp was $400 at least. I had to finance one of my first systems.....lol

The good old b&m shops we remember are going but I think its weeding out the dirt merchants from the pro's. There has always been crap around, you just used to find it at the flea market. Agreed that you can buy stuff at cut throat prices on the net but it doesn't have a warranty and you may have to buy it multiple times. The original maker sees that money some where and the don't have to stand behind it.

If anything car audio has became more diverse than ever. There are all kinds of products to fill every niche there is. GPS, back seat entertainment, adding a sub or going for an all out sq build.

If car audio is dead why are there so many forums and threads full of people confused by all the different products and not knowing what to pick for their build.

I remember when alpine made THE h/u, MB Quart made THE comps and kicker made THE woofer. Now there are tons and tons of audio stuff to fit all budgets.


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

Guys, I appreciate the passion you have about audio and its role in your lives, but let's try to keep personal attacks out of this, okay? As the OP, I've been grateful to have so many people share their opinions and help us understand the history and current status of car audio. Let's continue to do so in a way that respects each other's experiences and perspective.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

mr.gone said:


> Guys, I appreciate the passion you have about audio and its role in your lives, but let's try to keep personal attacks out of this, okay? As the OP, I've been grateful to have so many people share their opinions and help us understand the history and current status of car audio. Let's continue to do so in a way that respects each other's experiences and perspective.


Man, you got my vote for POTUS!!


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## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

This is a pretty awesome thread! Its really cool to have everyone share their stories.


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

So to take my original thread in a slightly different direction -- and maybe start a whole separate thread -- I think it would be helpful to address potential SOLUTIONS to some of the problems we've identified. Of course, we can't change the macro issues like the economy, the music industry, the differences between growing up in one decade or another, but maybe we can start talking about subjects that have come up that we do have some power to affect.

For example, we know that in some ways DIYMA has replaced the local car audio shops as a place for enthusiasts to hang out and learn from one another. Personally, I think everybody here does a pretty good job of that, but maybe we can try to strengthen that aspect.

The other thing I'm thinking is that we start more of a dialogue with car audio company representatives. In the light of all that's been said, it's pretty amazing that these guys are committed to the industry when its future is so uncertain. Maybe we ask those who've participated in DIYMA over the years to look at this thread, tell us what they think and tell us how we can be helpful to them as businesses.

Minor thought: Should we suggest that DIYMA have a separate section in the forums for addressing specific car models? Just one broad category, with separate posts on "Honda Accord 2003-7 factory head unit mods" or the like. The installed factory systems seem like a growing challenge and having the forum organized in a way that makes it easier for people to find answers for their specific vehicle seems like it might have some value.

Please share your thoughts. Thanks.


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## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

As far as specific car models, there seems to be a whole forum for most. With the exception of my outlander.

I think Diyma members do help, by spending money.....

I think it would be awesome if you could order a new car with the equipment you wanted built into the car....There's a car dealership in Richmond where you can buy jacked up 4x4s all customized. They are used but its still cool. I know its a niche market but its still fun to ponder.

I think that the knowledge base here and some of the indiviual members is very impressive. If it could be used to better the industry that would be cool. It does seem as though the industry has noticed what "we" want. Look at the DSP's that are out. I mentioned it before but it seems as though each one is an improvement on the one before. 

Intergration is going to be the big new thing. Its getting harder every year. I don't see it changing either. What would be nice though is if the manufacture that the oem paired with, like RF in my case, would make plug and play upgrades. If I could have bought a rf 360.3 and just plugged it into my RF oem system I would have.

Helix has a line of products like I am talking about and they are really innovative. If I had a vehicle that they would work with I would have bought one.


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## glastron (Jan 18, 2009)

I'd like to see spl competitions that use your lowest score on a sweep of sub frequencies so people don't have choose between music or spl when building a box


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## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

Can you imagine if the RF dealer was located inside the mitsubishi dealer, and alpine located with chysler and so on, wouldn't it be nice to pick the equipment that you wanted in your new car?

A good example: with jeep wranglers you can have the dealer install all kinds of offroad options from lift kits to bumper and winches.

I guess one size fits all is more cost effective but I for one would be much more likely to add the $2500 preium oem system if it was made with the gear I picked. Right now oem systems have brand names but the actual equipment that they use is nothing for them to be proud of. Wouldn't it be nice if the alpine oem system came with a W910 bt head unit instead of a made in china rig with an alpine sticker?


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

Mr. Gone, if I weren't so perceptive, I wouldn't think that this whole thread was something for a graduate degree thesis. If it isn't, you may want to stay in school or go back for a masters. This is a great thread.

I am 45yo, I have been on and off competing since 1989 and have had the boom systems (in late 80's and early 90's you could still hear the music too), to full on SQ Competition systems. I think this thread needs something to think about.

I have read from some of the "old farts" here (I am one of them) that we remember the hey day of car audio. I remember having 4 Pyle 10's free air in the trunk of my 80 Regal, with Alpine 4x10's and 3.5's with an Alpine dual knob tape deck back in 1984...it hit hard, and the kids loved it. I didn't compete, but when Doc Thunder started up his series, I jumped in head first.

In the late 80's early 90's, Car Audio Magazines were all the rage, from CarSound, to Car Audio and Electronic to Car Stereo Review. These magazines would feature the best SQ cars in the country. I always wanted my car to be featured in a magazine. But unfortunately, it didn't happen. As soon as the internet came into view, now kids could look up the pictures of systems online, and no more need for a print magazine. Now B&M Stereo Shops had to compete with pawn shops and flea markets back in the heyday. They could easily beat them with quality of product and professionalism in installation. But when the Internet came on, now they had to compete with the same product they have, but at MUCH lower prices. Crutchfield.com came out, and now they can buy them super cheap, but they wanted the B&M to install it.

This put the B&M into a bit of a quandry. Do we charge the same amount for the install even though they didn't buy the product from us? Or do we charge a bit more to insure that we get ours even though they bought from someone else? Or do we lower our price for install and not warranty the work, just like the internet doesn't warranty the product?

You see, all these things like upbringing of our kids (mine is 23), doesn't mean squat. We gave our son every opportunity to get an education and to better himself. He had a skateboard that he loved and spent nearly every hour of daylight to practice, but he also got the game consoles.

My son didn't get an IPod until he was a freshman in HS. Now he is a full on Johnny Apple-seed. But he has a great career, and a family. Car audio was his passion, because he loved my cars, but when other things like iPods, Cell phones and internet video sites like youtube came into his view, cars and car audio fell by the wayside.

I just hope that in all of this we can all agree on one point.

The absolute decline in car audio is this: Admitting that there is a decline in Car Audio.

Stay positive about the growth of our hobby, and it will flourish. People will be drawn to your passion about SQ, and they will become so curious that they may even ask your advice. Lose that passion, and SQ will die with it.

--Joe


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## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

What exactly is the decline? The products are plentiful.

I think the decline is the car culture. The B&M car audio shops and the custom car shops all over are in a decline. Like many people have said, you used to have to get in your car and cruise around to find your friends and see what they were up to. Now a days kids go home and meet their friends online. Also back when I was younger if you wanted a nice car, you built it, radio included. My first car was an olds 442. I was pissed when my dad gave it to me when I was 14. We built it and it was great. Now days even a beater muscle car is expensive. My dad got paid to take the 442 off of someones property.

I blame the cops.....lol, its illegalto cruise most places, hence the down fall of the car culture.


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

AWC said:


> Now I'm a jack-ass? Jesus, dude. Cool it. If you can't talk civil, what business do you have judging the merits of any society. I'm glad you think you're smart. However, if audio is the most important thing in your life, you are ****ing up your life.
> 
> Just because he made a joke and you pulled the self-superior card doesn't make it so. Most people who need to make themselves better than the next guy, on an internet forum, need to improve the workings in their head before correcting others. Again, lighten up Francis!


Be civil? You called me a **** from the start. 

And I don't get how you think I'm screwing my life up. I support myself and my obsession pretty good and I'm debt free. That's all that really matters.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

chaser9478 said:


> What exactly is the decline? The products are plentiful.
> 
> I think the decline is the car culture. The B&M car audio shops and the custom car shops all over are in a decline. Like many people have said, you used to have to get in your car and cruise around to find your friends and see what they were up to. Now a days kids go home and meet their friends online. Also back when I was younger if you wanted a nice car, you built it, radio included. My first car was an olds 442. I was pissed when my dad gave it to me when I was 14. We built it and it was great. Now days even a beater muscle car is expensive. My dad got paid to take the 442 off of someones property.
> 
> I blame the cops.....lol, its illegalto cruise most places, hence the down fall of the car culture.


The culture went mainstream and is a huge market. Then crap was being sold for way more than it should have and every larry dick and moby would open a store and become synonymous with cheap cell phone accessories.


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

SQ Audi said:


> Mr. Gone, if I weren't so perceptive, I wouldn't think that this whole thread was something for a graduate degree thesis. If it isn't, you may want to stay in school or go back for a masters. This is a great thread.


Glad you like the thread, but no, it's not part of a graduate degree thesis. I'm an independent marketing communications consultant and exploring topics like this is something I do every day. My only reason for the thread is just to satisfy my own curiosity and to learn from others. It's a little more interesting than the IT/financial services/healthcare stuff I'm normally researching as part of my work.


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## jimboman (Jun 24, 2008)

Ugly alienware looking products and bad sounding music. Back in the days it was an honor to grace your dash with a nice looking Alpine cd player with those sexy green buttons and a red indicator. Nowadays, you are almost taking a step back if you put most anything on the market in your car as far as looks go.

Also, back in the days, cars had tape players or just simple am/fm tuners. So upgrading to a cd player was all the rage. From there you could expand. Now cars have cd palyers and aux in/ ipod hookups. Music is also so teribbly recorded as of 90's standards.

A majority of what I listen to is Sirius. Sounds like crap, so why would I want to invest in an awsome front stage. Certain CD's sound great with what I currently have.

Just my thoughts.


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## mr.gone (Nov 22, 2009)

chaser9478 said:


> As far as specific car models, there seems to be a whole forum for most. With the exception of my outlander.


Just to clarify, I'm thinking about areas on DIYMA in which viewers can look for info on their models. My experience is that forums dedicated to a particular manufacturer or model are strong on info about mechanical systems and some accessories such as HID headlights and basic audio modifications, but not necessarily SQ-oriented efforts. Conversely while DIYMA is helpful in a broad range of SQ topics, I don't see a lot of info focused on the specific requirements of, say, a 2009 Audi S4 or a 2011 Camaro SS or a 2005 Toyota Sienna or ... 
Not that there would be a separate category for each. Rather, it might just have a larger category of Individual vehicles snd in time it would evolve to Individual vehicles > Audi > A4/S4 or Toyota > Sienna.


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## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

It could work. Ecspecially with "how to's" on how to take the dash and doors a part and how to tap into oem wiring. A knowledge base on makes and models that way would be nice. I know oem intergration with my vehicle was a nightmare.


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## diamondjoequimby (Jun 30, 2009)

It is interesting to read the reactions and opinions in here.

Here's my perspective

1) The internet did not kill the independent retailer. The independent retailers killed themselves. They either did not adapt to the changing market by not embracing the new technology that the consumers were shifting toward like the iPod. Or they just did not do that good of work to begin with. If anything, the internet exposed that and at worst it just sped up natural selection. Think about it, how many industries do things the same way they did 15-25 yrs ago? Which leads me to a tangential topic, we pine for the "good ole days" when in fact they really weren't that great. I would take current equipment over equipment from the heyday any day. But I digress. Besides, buying audio equipment online without hearing it is like buying art without seeing it. Biggest point is shops have to adapt, and they have to do it quicker now than they ever have before. The ones that do are still open and thriving.

2) The iPod did not kill car audio. If anything it gave it a GIANT boost. From my experience, when people latched on to iPods they became more involved with music in general and wanted to get a way to play them in the car. From there the good independent shops had a new influx of people who they were able to introduce to new speakers, amps, subs, etc. See the part about adapting in point #1. Now, with the capacity of mass storage and the ability for an entire library of high res files in something as small as a thumb drive there is beginning to be a resurgence in higher quality audio. Why else do you think Apple started making higher res versions of music available on iTunes? Their consumers requested it. Granted, it's not lossless, but it is a good start. After all, recording quality in general didn't take a crap overnight. It eroded over 20+ years.

3) There is less disposable income and more to spend it on. This is pretty self explanatory. This also fueled the race to zero in my opinion. In order to maintain a piece of the pie manufacturers started slashing quality and thus price to maintain market share. Again, the shops that could not sell themselves or the quality of their work suffered.

I've been in the car audio industry for almost 15 years and was a junkie/enthusiast for years before that. There is still good car audio out there but it is in a completely different form than it was even 10 years ago. I feel a lot of the people carving the headstone of car audio just got passed by in the paradigm shift to what car audio is today.


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## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

Amen! That's what I was trying to say. My stereo is 100% better than the ones I had in the 90's. The equipment isn't from the same old brands but the brands I am using have been around.


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## MADXF (Jun 30, 2010)

Competition kills everything.

With competition comes the desire to be the best, but at the same time another company's desire is to be the cheapest. The best can't compete with the cheapest, and here we are.

Applies to most, if not all, industries.


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

I don't think car audio is dead at all. What I think is the people who think it's dead are just upset that car audio _*as they knew it*_ is gone. I'm only 28 and car audio _as I knew it_ has already left the building. Like everyone else, I also have fond memories of hanging out at the local audio shops as a teenager and owning everyone in the usaci 0-300w class at the local competitions which were pretty much every weekend from spring to fall. I realize that things will never be like they were back in the day and it's sad because the memories carry such a strong emotion with me, but I would rather evolve than mope. 

The mindset of our present day culture has changed (some of it from necessity) and it reflects in EVERYTHING from A to Z, not just car audio. Times are always changing and everything is going to evolve.. it's always been like that, and you just have to evolve with it or you will be left in the dust. We live in a watered-down throwaway culture where people can only afford cheap things and it's cheaper to replace them with new than it is to fix them or buy quality items. I don't think anyone intended for it to end up like it is.. but hard economic times combined with the proliferation of cheap chinese parts is why things are the way they are today.

My other passion in life is hotrodding, I build engines for a living and I hear the *exact same things* from all the old timers almost verbatim. People buy cheap chinese engine parts instead of quality gear, young kids aren't as passionate about it as previous generations, ebay and crate engines are forcing speed shops and machine shops out of business, etc. Auto machine shops are closing down left and right because crate engines are so cheap through jegs and summit and nobody is willing to have engines built anymore. The engine building industry is slowing down at a rapid pace, unfortunately.. on almost the exact same parallel as b&m car audio sho[s. But, as with everything there are lucrative tangents stemming from the evolution of the industry, you just have to change your heading and get rid of the notion that things will be the same forever. 

Ask anybody involved in any kind of niche and I'm sure they will tell you the exact same thing we are reading about here. Everybody's fighting the same battles and we're all hurting. Take a step back for a second and look at the big picture, and remember that when one door closes another always opens. Walking through the new door (opportunity) is your choice, though.


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## teedot23 (Jun 11, 2008)

jackedgrand said:


> ebay/internet killed the independant shops!!!


some independent shops killed themselves over charging for bs equipment. I remember clearly a local shop was charging $700 for sony explodes i don't mind spending cash on this hobby but explode 15's for $700 not including install enclosure amp & etc.


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## teedot23 (Jun 11, 2008)

hurrication said:


> I don't think car audio is dead at all. What I think is the people who think it's dead are just upset that car audio _*as they knew it*_ is gone. I'm only 28 and car audio _as I knew it_ has already left the building. Like everyone else, I also have fond memories of hanging out at the local audio shops as a teenager and owning everyone in the usaci 0-300w class at the local competitions which were pretty much every weekend from spring to fall. I realize that things will never be like they were back in the day and it's sad because the memories carry such a strong emotion with me, but I would rather evolve than mope.
> 
> The mindset of our present day culture has changed (some of it from necessity) and it reflects in EVERYTHING from A to Z, not just car audio. Times are always changing and everything is going to evolve.. it's always been like that, and you just have to evolve with it or you will be left in the dust. We live in a watered-down throwaway culture where people can only afford cheap things and it's cheaper to replace them with new than it is to fix them or buy quality items. I don't think anyone intended for it to end up like it is.. but hard economic times combined with the proliferation of cheap chinese parts is why things are the way they are today.
> 
> ...


well said I totally agree


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## matt1212 (Jan 14, 2010)

jackedgrand said:


> ebay/internet killed the independant shops!!!


^ agreed...cant believe no one mentioned this. If your claim that car audio is on the decline is based on the number of shops available in your area, then I think that can be mainly contributed to the internet. The overall quality of products has increased, making a warranty less necessary and a place like ebay car audio heaven.

In addition, i think a lot of the reason people used to upgrade their stock systems was to be able to control what they listened to, i.e. a stock FM/AM radio to an aftermarket CD player. Now all it takes is a cassette hooked up to the iPhone everyone has in their pocket...


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## nubz69 (Aug 27, 2005)

Let me start by saying I'm not going to read this whole thread.

I work in the car audio industry and personally talk with most of the independent car audio dealers in the midwest. The decline of car audio has many reasons but the largest by far is that the OEM offerings improved greatly since 2005. Anyone who has worked in car audio or enjoyed car audio knows that the head unit used to the first thing you replaced when you got a new car. That changed around 2005 due to two things. The first is usb/ipod integration. Customers could now play their music in a stock car in any way they wanted. The second factor has been the fact that new cars head units have all the features customers want, are designed so critical systems are run through the head unit and are designed as part of the whole dash. This means there is a much lower demand for head unit replacement and the price of head unit replacement has been driven up. Most customers now feel the stock radio is "good enough" because it comes with bluetooth, nav and ipod. 

A secondary issue is that car audio companies stopped marketing their products. I can't tell you how many people have visited a display I am working at a car show (ie. CES, Milwaukee Auto show) that have never heard a system with a single 12" sub. Kids who are 15-25 just have not been exposed to bass or a decent car audio system unless they are from urban neighborhoods. This amazes me due to how much better current music styles rely on bass (dubstep, rap). 

So here is the breakdown.

1. Stock systems are good enough or cost way to much for basic upgrades
2. No exposure due to a lack of marketing by all brands
3. No value perception due to 1 +2

There is one more problem that is killing this industry. There is a huge lack of sales people in the marketplace. Most are just clerks, who know so little about the products and it's installation that they couldn't qualify a customer if they tried. I blame bestbuy for creating an environment where independent shops couldn't afford to compete and hire good sales people. Bestbuy is on it's way out but the damage has been done. 

The other options on the poll are valid but they are not the drivers of the situation in the marketplace.

This will all change and I will tell you when, you heard it here first in 2012. Car audio/video will return to a pinacle once we have self driving cars. Once the driver doesn't have to focus on the road, road trips will become entertainment trips.


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## shp24 (Aug 24, 2012)

nubz69 said:


> This will all change and I will tell you when, you heard it here first in 2012. Car audio/video will return to a pinacle once we have self driving cars. Once the driver doesn't have to focus on the road, road trips will become entertainment trips.


Good point, and self-driving cars will be here eventually.

But for many of us, driving IS the entertainment, the escape, and even the sole reason for being in the car in the first place. The music is secondary.


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## quiet (Feb 15, 2010)

shp24 said:


> Good point, and self-driving cars will be here eventually.
> 
> But for many of us, driving IS the entertainment, the escape, and even the sole reason for being in the car in the first place. The music is secondary.



I do love driving most times, the return trip from work can be a chore. But I do enjoy driving and that experience is made better with the right music. I don't think of it as secondary more as a complement to driving. Also I dont think car audio has been killed, just evolved via internet and companys that take advantage such as sundown. My entire audio system is made of components 99% of people in my area have hear of.

Tell me this doesnt make you want to drive the hell out of your car.


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## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

The point of it all is the music. Not the system. Music is now mass produced by entertainers instead of artist.


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> that's what killed it all, *man*.















> all the kids are nerds!
> 
> stuck in their own little iPod worlds,


I chuckle a little bit whenever I see them driving around with earbuds or headphones. What's sad is that I actually see it quite a bit..


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## Bkp02 (Mar 17, 2012)

After having read everyone's take I thought I'd toss in my two cents..

1. Retailers that do not understand that having a clean functional sale floor is important are only hurting themselves. 

2. Retailers that do not coach and train and test their sales staff are only hurting themselves.

3. Sales people who present themselves in unprofessional attire and using street language will kill 90% of their sales add a lack of real product knowledge add another 5%. Knowledge is power.

4. Lack of managerial supervision on the Sales Floor will hurt you (get the frak off your butts and get out of the office and get on the floor and observe like a hawk and correct as needed)

5. As a Sale professional.... Keep your word..if you say you will follow up with a customer and call them later with a price or special order possibilities, then you should follow thru

6. Remember your customers..know their name, be interested in them and remember them when they return for the 2nd, 3rd 4th 5th etc...for one system or another even when they return in 18months to make changes if you could just say ...Hi Bob it's good to see you again. You reinforce your relationship to the customer and your chance of closing a sale is well over 60%.

7. If you can not pay a salesman a living wage you should close now...having a long standing professional sale force is the only way good shops make it....ever. If you are not doing this then I expect your monthly P/L's are out of whack already and you are watching your business do a double helix nose dive into bankruptcy. 

8. Remember it is a business not a Club House but be willing to welcome everyone. 

9. Shops that charge 60 to install s head unit someone buy's from them then charges 250 when one brings in outside gear are only hurting themselves and are pretty short sighted retailers. Better to charge all comers 99 and keep busy...be honest with your selves car audio retailers.....How many people have you watched walk out of your store after they have seen that policy? How much in advertising and marketing do you think you will have to spend to get them to ever darken your doorstep again.?

10. This goes one goes out to the really professional and busy car audio retailers....Get over yourselves. Thinking that business is so good that you don't have to kiss anyone's ass is a mistake. If I gotta come at you with a 5k install and have to kiss your ass to get your attention you are hurting yourself as I am going to tell 10-15 other people how you treated me and you may not be slow today but in time done often enough you will be.

11. Lack of real quality control and professional qualified installers...don't cut corners hire best fire the rest.



As a former Salesman I made white collar money working part time hours just by paying heed to the thoughts above.

As a Sales Manager my Gross Profit margins averaged between 30-35% on 2.5 to 3 million in yearly sales and I never worked more then 45hrs a week.

I blame the the retailers who have lost sight of what is truly important. If you can follow the above steps it doesn't matter if you sell Zapco or Sound Storm take care of your customers and you will always be busy. 

I spent the early part of this year driving to stores and while on unrelated business trips listening to gear where I could. I went 15 stores between Tucson/LA/Chicago/Milwaukee. I purchased my Hertz 3ways in Milwaukee because they did everything they could right...I live in Tucson former car audio oasis with at least two nationally well known install operations. 
They pretty much failed on most of the above points I've listed. As a result the other 6k of my budget went to online purchases with another 500 going to Harbor Freight and Home Depot for tools. I am doing my own work and while am slow about it and real life gets in my way at least my car stereo doesn't leave me with a bad taste in my mouth and I am certainly prouder of it. 



BKP

The sales quote the ticked me off the most was when they wanted to sell me a P99 then run it network mode with crossovers this after telling them SQ and flexibility was important to me i was like why sell me the P99 then if you are not going to make use of it's abilities. (curse words)


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## autokraftgt (Aug 28, 2012)

This thread is 6 pages long already and it is filled with VERY VALID reasons as to why the industry is NOT what it USED TO BE....

But to keep things in perspective...I'm 34 and I believe the industry was awesome when I was a teenager back in the 90's

Teenagers might think the industry is awesome NOW due to a lack of comparison 

Big Box shops that resemble messy garages are the norm these days. Maybe in 15 years, the teenagers today will be complaining about how there are no stereo shops PERIOD!!! Hell, we might all be wearing ear buds that come factory in our cars. Old RCA cables might be in the same category as those rabbit ear antennas we grew up with...
Things change....sometimes for the better, or worse. I can tell you this...I will always have a few amps lying around, a nice cd player, a nice subwoofer(s), and a nice set of components lying around so I can rock out. I just may resemble my father who still to this day rocks out to his Beatles, Iron Butterfly, and Santana collection on Vinyl or 8-Tracks out in the garage. I used to think he was goofy listening to that stuff. Now that Iam older, I realize that it's cool and it's simply bringing him back to the "GOOD OL DAYS!!!"


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## D-Bass (Apr 27, 2012)

Sorry guys. It's my fault. I killed car audio. I was drunk. It was a mistake. I'll never touch a tweeter again.


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## Nass027 (Oct 25, 2006)

D-Bass said:


> Sorry guys. It's my fault. I killed car audio. I was drunk. It was a mistake. I'll never touch a tweeter again.


you killed car audio! You bastard!


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## Lone Fox (Oct 28, 2012)

Really great thread! I admire and appreciate your guys/gals passion you have about audio.

I can not comment much about car audio, because I haven't been that into it. I do remember reading car-audio magazines... do they still exist? Since I have struggled much of my adult life and therefore have never owned a car or owned a car that was simply not worth the investment (to me... I'm talking straight "rust beaters" here).

The car I own now is an alright car, but the HVAC integration makes it very challenging to install aftermarket equipment. Today's OEM radios are designed so integrated that they are practically proprietary. Factory radios simply do not have amp or digital outputs for whatever reason... the marketing people decided it isn't important and consumers aren't demanding theme.

Believe it or not iPods/compressed music can be "cleaned up" and sound a little bit better *dunks tomatoes*. Not as good as lossless, but in a car it may not be that big of a priority. 

I'm a proud owner of an iPod... love my commercial-free podcast and the ease of having a vast music library in the palms of my hand. At home, and on the computer... music is played lossless through my Paradigm speakers. To me quality equipment isn't dead.


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

Here's my top reasons in order of relativity, many already mentioned.

1. Propietary and higher quality OEM systems with better technology to allow easier access to MP3's via streaming, Ipod integration, and or Media/Memory card slots.
2. Economy and expense
3. More retail switch from local to on-line. This put local out of business and really most enthusiasts are not DIY'rs. The true enthusiasts are having to become DIY'rs to continue. Just no good custom work to be had like in the 90's. Most can't do it themselves and leave as a consumer.
4. Not sure the exact impact but the competition arena has been plagued with politics, corruption, bias, etc. This killed a lot of the new competitors coming into the market and so us old fogies were left with not many newbs coming into the arena. No growth= slow demise. I think this also helped spur the competitve SPL market cause a meter is the judge and it is accurate time after time. It was all about volume, made it easy and simple.

I'm sure there is many more aspects and really it's a combinations of many. Will it ever recover, I'm unsure. There will be those DIY'rs like this group that will take it to their grave. I mean hey, there still those vinyl junkies out there and you can't convince them otherwise. I know the SQ market has taken a big hit over the last decade with the switch to SPL and most manufacturers have followed the money. This put many out of business as well, sold out to other company's that have taken a great name and turned it into pure junk. Kudo's to those company's that have held on and have maintained there high quality standards in a market where it has been easier to use less quality materials and post big numbers. Anyway my 3 cents.


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## MJacobs112 (Jan 16, 2012)

Currently being a college student and working part-time with a bunch of people of a similar age I can tell you that most ideas stated in regards to the younger generation are true. I won't lie. When I was 17 and bought my first car, I put a head-unit in and instantly wanted a subwoofer. I feel like thats the thought processes behind most of it. So I did, I got myself a full kicker setup, 2 12's and coaxials for the front. 

3 years later, (which is present time) I'm currently designing a whole new system with seas prestige drivers and dayton HO subs. I feel like i'm the slim minority here, and most people won't do what i've done. Which is read these forums for about 2 years straight gathering information and saving it in a notepad document. I've also become committed to learning how to install it myself. My parents weren't crazy about it, but hey. Its my car/life. Most of the kids I see in college walk around with their Bose or Beats by Dre headphones, that actually infuriates me to no end. Because I know what pieces of **** they are. (I have denon AH-D-5000's) Those are real headphones. 

But I feel like i'm going on a tangent. I feel like pop-culture has done all of this, with rap and pop music. You never hear anyone rapping about how clear their tweeters are? Or how snappy their mid-bass is? Thats why people only want subs. If all of a sudden everyone rapped or was obsessed with tweeters, everyone would want the best tweeters. People are natural followers. (If i've learned anything from BA degree in psychology) They'll do whatever someone of authority tells them.

All I can say is don't lose faith, I know there are other people with my mindset. They'll come around eventually.


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

MJacobs112 said:


> Currently being a college student and working part-time with a bunch of people of a similar age I can tell you that most ideas stated in regards to the younger generation are true. I won't lie. When I was 17 and bought my first car, I put a head-unit in and instantly wanted a subwoofer. I feel like thats the thought processes behind most of it. So I did, I got myself a full kicker setup, 2 12's and coaxials for the front.
> 
> 3 years later, (which is present time) I'm currently designing a whole new system with seas prestige drivers and dayton HO subs. I feel like i'm the slim minority here, and most people won't do what i've done. Which is read these forums for about 2 years straight gathering information and saving it in a notepad document. I've also become committed to learning how to install it myself. My parents weren't crazy about it, but hey. Its my car/life. Most of the kids I see in college walk around with their Bose or Beats by Dre headphones, that actually infuriates me to no end. Because I know what pieces of **** they are. (I have denon AH-D-5000's) Those are real headphones.
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity (Sep 12, 2012)

The improvement of OEM sound systems


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

Here I go reviving a semi-dormant thread. 
I was introduced to car audio around '84-'85 when a friend let me hear his Alpine 6x9's and amp. Probably around 50-60 watts per channel, don't really recall. But, it was the first time I had seen 6x9's in boxes. Couldn't believe the improved bass response and it really lit the fire for me. That system was in a RX7 and was expensive (for the time), around $800-$1000 including the matching head unit (tape deck). NO ONE was spending that kinda money in my area for car audio at that time. Within 6-12 months...car audio EXPLODED.

But, here's the thing...it was kinda a exclusive circle to be in. The reason being that car audio USED TO BE EXPENSIVE. Sure, you could buy Pyramid, Legacy and similiar low end stuff in the late 80's but, you weren't taken seriously. In fact, you were kinda laughed at for running that junk. That may sound snobbish but, it was the way it was. My first "system" included four Kicker 10" Free-Air subs, two Rockford Fosgate Punch 45's and a couple of RF Punch Plates in each door, an XV-1 crossover and a Nakamichi tape deck. That all cost me around $1500 which was ALOT of money for a kid going to college and working part-time at Kmart (yeah, I know) for $3.50 per hour! But, I financed it, had it all paid off within a year and had built myself alittle credit. 

Yeah, the system was pretty basic but, at the time you couldn't just go out and find those components anywhere. You HAD to buy from a shop and save up to pay for the good equipment. Remember, these were relatively small American companies (PPI, RF, Orion, etc) making this stuff. Many times it was all built by hand. 

Fast forward to today and you can get ALOT for $1500. Plus, it's available everywhere. Go to Fleabay and spend that money and you'll be able to put together a very nice sounding (and loud) system. $200 for a Clarion CZ702 (with t/a), $300-400 for a 5 channel amp (JL, PPI, SS, etc.) with decent power, $400 for a set of ID subs and another $200-300 for components. Now add a couple hundred for a sub box and wiring, install it yourself and have a nice quality setup without ever setting foot into a brick & mortar store. A system like that back in the early 90's would have cost $3000 or more easily. That would also have been considered a serious setup back then too. Today, it's pretty basic, almost entry-level and affordable by any standard. 

Cheap and available has also led to the dumbing down of the scene. At just about any stoplight you can hear a bunch of distorted bass coming out of the rattling trunk of some piece of crap Accord or Monte Carlo. You can also hear the highest of high frequencies...but, NOTHING INBETWEEN. You look at that guy and you can tell he is proud of that mess. He's bumpin' and it caused you to look at him...mission accomplished. I see him as another big reason car audio is in the crapper. He probably bought his Audiobahn junk at the flea market, off of Ebay or CL. This guy is what average people think of when they hear the words "car" and "audio" now. Yeah, the longer I have to hear his trunk/hatch/license plate rattling, the more convinced I am that car audio is dying. While everyone else at the light is simply annoyed.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Latest killer of car audio: the club mix drive home. Sure, a radio station here started doing that with top 40 music and so did the other one that plays that sort of music. I listen sometimes because it can be very friendly to my pair of 15s IB. Does not take long to figure out they took most of the low bass (maybe <40Hz) out of the music they "mix". WTF is this, what morons. No more bass fix on the way home I'll have to load some new stuff on the mp3. Who takes a radio station that plays mostly bass heavy music and chops the bass out....


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## Miniboom (Jul 15, 2010)

Does anyone have new opinions on this subject?

How's car audio coming along in 2013? 

I have to agree that the first and foremost reason why car audio is dying, is the OEM system improvements. And when the OEM systems are getting better, it becomes even harder to justify spending money on "upgrading", which in these days basically leads into this:

Buying rather expensive equipment
Buying rather expensive tools and/or materials to mount said equipment
Figuring out all the issues with noise/adjustments and/or struggle with integration of stock HU (car computer, steering wheel controls, etc.).

And when all is said and done, you may not even get THAT good of an upgrade compared to OEM.

I've heard new OEM systems in even cheap cars that are DECENT. If you don't spend a LOT of time in your new(ish) car, it probably won't be worth upgrading in most cases, IMHO.

Also, I think all the new, electronic societies that essentially should SAVE time, COSTS more time in reality. Instead of meeting friends for an hour or two, people spend entire evenings just browsing facebook or whatnot.

I actually find that pretty sad. 

I'm trying to spend as little time as possible on my computer since I had a kid 1.5 years ago, I never use it while he's awake. I hope I can keep it up, and get him outdoors as much as possible, instead of wasting his life "living" online.


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## SkipNJ (Mar 12, 2009)

A few things

The culture is different, audio and music are not as important anymore
The aftermarket is slow to keep up with current technology
Car makers integrate everything electrical in the car and make it harder to work on them
Factory systems are decent

On the second point, I'd like a DSP that could store information like crossover points/slopes/eq/TA,etc and be controlled by the in dash equipment, but that also could be driven from a phone. Essentially the phone would be the head unit, allowing you to access and play media (streamed or stored locally), display and edit settings on the dsp via an app, and even display the video from a back up camera on the car.


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## Hi-FiDelity (Jan 22, 2013)

While there are quite a few reasons why this hobby may not be what it once was the one that I've noticed as one of the younger guys here (and I'm not calling out any one here) is the lack of acceptance to the younger "bass heads". It's kinda of the same thing in the home audio hobby, us younger guy hear about how "Nobody makes/likes good music any more" or "Your generation doesn't give a **** back in my day.." or the classic "Nothing new is any good". If you'r first introduction o a hobby was some "old" guy telling you that "you don't get it, cause you didn't grow up when I did.." BS you probably aren't going to want to take part in any hobby with him or any one like him. pocket5s made some good posts earlier about how he's seen this in the muscle car groups and honestly that one of the reasons I'm into as much into supping up and restoring cars as I was as a kid. We all started some were guys and as much as you guy's would like to think those sparkomatic 6X9 you had hooked up to you're Rockford The Punch in your 81 Iroc were the ultimate in SQ in reality the probably weren't, but you liked them and really that's what counted. So instead of telling a young kid that's got a budding interest in the hobby "Your systems crap cause..." why don't you encourage his interest and show him what a SQ system can sound like.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Its all about pop culture people.......once upon a time car audio was a small group of geeks.......then it blew up for about a decade.......now its back down to a small group of geeks. Don't even try to fool your self or anyone else into believing sq has ever been even remotely popular with any generation. Youngins like it loud, they also like it bass heavy....... always have. Some people just stick with it long enough and mature into sq. Young folks determine what's popular, right now car audio is not. So the group of kids doing it is small........therefore the percentage of that group who will mature into sq will be small. Its been this way for a long time. My age group..... around 40..... has a small population into this and we were right in the middle of the "heyday". People give it up, and get over it. I never did........


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

It really boils down to a love of music for me......... I think that why I'm still here. So many people just play music as background noise, or listen to stuff because it what "everyone" is listening to. I don't know how anyone can claim a love of music without a love of audio as well.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

And to the claim the factory systems are getting better..........shiiiiiiiiiit........never heard one that didn't completely suck at anything approaching realistic volume!


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

claydo said:


> And to the claim the factory systems are getting better..........shiiiiiiiiiit........never heard one that didn't completely suck at anything approaching realistic volume!


No **** lol!! I listened to a lot of factory systems, the most recent being my mothers newish Stratus R/T with the Infinity system... Terrible, absolutely terrible, even with really nice factory locations for tweets in the sail panels by the mirror. I got to hear my buddies new ride, a 99 Infiniti with the Bose system a week or so ago and that was a step up from the Stratus but still tame compared to my car. They all seem to sound hollow and stale. My Saturn with 3.5 inch mids and 1 inch generic tweets (one blown!) in kicks and two 12 inch subs sounds 10x better than any of them.

I think you just can't beat a good aftermarket HU and some amps. The factory **** somehow always sounds off. Muddy and hollow to me.


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity (Sep 12, 2012)

cajunner said:


> saturation.
> 
> you know what the problem is today?
> 
> ...


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I do live in my own little world though. -An electronic one.


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## S.A.-K.I.D. (May 27, 2013)

Interesting thread. Many good points of view. I love the ability to listen & hear music. 

Keep the gimmicks, give me music. Keep the ear buds, give me music. Keep the ipods, give me cassettes. The only thing I don't miss about cassettes is the lost of highs & lows because of the magnetic head erasing said frequency range. That's the only real reason I placed cds above cassetts, maintaining whats there for the most part. I place vinyls above cds, for the grit & warmth(pleasing harmonics if you will). Now, give me live music w/a decent venue, talented artists & musicians, sound engineer, & all hands on said setup, I'm in nirvana................


In any vehical I drive, they can keep the entire stock audio system for them damn selves & let my mind work out the rest. Clean slate to design my system of choice. Keep all gimmicks. I'll take Q/q: Quality over quantity. Unplugged from the faketrix since '90. Analog to infinity.......


Take care of ones ears PERIOD. Enjoy hearing the all of everything.......


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## NJaNeer (Jun 8, 2013)

Apparently young kids are at the center of problem...Haha

Main Reason:
Internet sales - no more middle man
- local stores can't compete
- No more hanging out at the stereo shop because I would rather spend that time online researching how to do it myself so I can save some money (sq is something you have to hear in person, if I do my own installation and I have no shops around me, who's going to teach me these things?)
Stop talking about the younger generation like they did something wrong. Parents raise children not iPods and cell phones. Most kids don't understand what high quality music sounds like because they never hear it, so why spend money on sq equipment you don't understand?

You older guys need to get your heads out of your arse and start educating instead of venting on the forums about how you walked to school up-hill both ways.


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity (Sep 12, 2012)

There's a good number of us that are under 20


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

I'm about to turn 20 and trust me, it's the stupidity and carelessness of some of these young creeps that is killing not only car audio but other hobbies as well. I guess killing is a harsh word to use, but they certainly aren't taking any interest in anything hands on so the game suffers.

Who wants to get sweaty and turn screwdrivers for a couple hours just to listen to music? The car comes with a stereo already


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## Vega-LE (Feb 22, 2009)

Look at the type of music most younger people listen to now-a-days. They don't care about SQ or having a quality stereo. They don't have a clue what music is suppose to sound like. Yeah, I know that's subjective.


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

Although a few people have touched on this nobody seems to be blaming the manufacturers. Something seemed to happen around 2000-2002 in where all the great companies sold out. I have been recently looking at Old School amplifiers and they all looked like a work of art. You had those companies in Phoenix pushing the boundaries and producing very high quality equipment. I just got an old PPI amp and it sounds very hi fi with so much detail. The old Fosgate, Phoenix Gold, PPI looked and sounded like high end audio equipment. Other companies such as Soundstream, MB Quartz,Diamond .... all seemed to be high quality products as well. For some reason they all sold out at once and within the space of two years people started noticing they didn't sound like they used to. Because they all were bought up by corporations being mass produced in China. No more hand made products made with passion and good materials. No more competing to sound better. Nobody seems to be pushing the envelope any more. So there is nothing to be excited about. The same can be said about most industries not just car audio. 

The economy does have a lot to do with it as well. Not many people have the expendable money to spend on toys any more. Of course that is because there are no more jobs because everything is being produced in China. There is little to challenge the market now. You can buy a JL amp that is safe and boring. It will work and sound ok but it will never be anything to be excited about. It won't quadruple its power bridged like the power houses of yesteryear. It won't have any particular character to set you apart from someone else. But it will work good enough and be clean enough to keep everyone happy. Not to mention audio going backwards with class D amps. I am sure there will be some that will defend Class D and some that wouldn't be able to tell the difference. For a sub maybe, but for anything else I don't think so. No offence to JL or Class D owners as I own some myself. 

I am not so sure there are many options for young people to get excited about any more. You can buy a ridiculously powerful amp for a couple of hundred dollars. I am pretty sure some of them will sound pretty good as well. Now that there are powerful amps you can get a high power handling sub in a small box that would not even require too much tuning. Order it on the internet to save 5 dollars or go to Best Buy. That is what the mentality has become and most of us are guilty of it.


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## cjazzy4 (Mar 29, 2012)

I'm not sure if I would use the word "kill" in the phrase "What killed car audio?" I think as any industry it has changed in some respects to the grand hay days of car audio......The first thing that comes to mind is that car manufactures have come out with better audio system in cars now days.....So people don't have to upgrade as much.....The ability to shop online has affected people buying at a "brick and mortar" store/shop (ie the video store....many have closed due to RED BOX or Netflix)
There are some that are fully functional sell/service audio shops out there because of a loyal customer base and continual education to provide other services. 
I don't think car audio has been killed out at all (unlike 8 tracks in a car).....But I think its just re-inventing itself to appeal and capture the new demands for the consumer.....Technology is changing and consumers want to move with the change ( How many cars you know have 8 tracks ,cassettes or cd changers in them?)
Welcome to the new digital age of car audio .


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## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

cajunner, thank you!


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## Hi-FiDelity (Jan 22, 2013)

cajunner said:


> I love this entitled picture you young'uns are painting for us.
> 
> When I was a kid nobody was pushing me to hear the local shop's demo systems, nobody pushed me to save money and buy decent components, nobody told me I needed to have an old guy show me what sound quality was.
> 
> ...



All I read was "Back in My Day..." and "You kids today don't know ****" No one is saying you gotta praise someone for everything they do, though calling them ignorant/slow/lazy/whatever doesn't help anything. Are you gonna tell me that if you walked into a shop when you were 15 and knew jack **** about audio gear and someone starts shouting about "Your generation don't know ****.." or "You obviously don't know what sound quality is..." that your gonna want to listen to a goddamn thing he says? I don't think so. There's a difference between examining something to someone that doesn't understand or fully grasp and calling them retarded.
If you want this hobby to continue to be great than when you get people that have an interest in the hobby like those "base heads" you don't dump on them and tell them they don't know ****. You show them hey this is what you can do and this is how you do it, which honestly sounds like what happened in the audio shops you frequented in your youth.


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## Hi-FiDelity (Jan 22, 2013)

cajunner said:


> you could have stretched out that post a little bit more, so we could fully appreciate the sentiment involved.


If that's not the pot calling the kettle black.




cajunner said:


> YES. I was a pimply-faced kid who didn't know jack ****, and I grew up listening and learning, not pouting and looking for the easy button. I could really appreciate what was being passed on to me when I was able to bend the ear of the local installers, who were heralded and put on pedestals for their knowledge and prying it out of them was tough, man...


Who said anything about an easy button. I have no issue listening and absorbing knowledge from people that know. The issue is if they are dismissive and treat me like crap cause "You don't know as much as me" than they can **** off I don't care how knowledgeable they are. 



cajunner said:


> you think because you have it all laid out right here that you don't have to respect what came before you, you don't have to earn anything resembling the right to use this knowledge, because it's free. It's a bunch of people who give it away all day and night, an easy answer just for the asking and forums specializing in anything and everything, all within distance of your pocket.


Where did I say that I feel that I don't have to earn the knowledge. You work to get knowledge you have to work to get experience those are the cold hard facts but you don't have to put up with some entitled **** that thinks they know everything and treats you like a punk. That doesn't do anything but kill the fun. 



cajunner said:


> that's now how it is, but that's not how the older crowd had it, we had it where you hung around without buying too much but you couldn't just ask away all the things you wanted, you had to pry it out, little bit by bit. This forum, and others like it around the web are creating more capability in this hobby than there ever was, it's like manna from heaven except the ones that are doing most of the guru instruction, are few and the ones that are doing the absorbing without giving up anything in return, are the many.


Summary: "I had it harder and therefore I'm entitled to ***** about young people not knowing a damn thing". No one's entitled to ****. 



cajunner said:


> you seem to believe that this hobby depends on me searching out young people who have no benchmark for sound and taking the time to mentor them, or else the whole thing falls apart, and I say that's bogus!


No not at all. I'm saying that when one show up asking questions you don't treat him like ****. If they're asking how you did this or what you're using for a/an amp/subs/processor then unload some knowledge, If he's a snot nosed punk that only wants you to do all the work for him then **** him. You don't treat everyone like **** because of a few morons. 



cajunner said:


> the concept that kids today need my help or else the ****house walls collapse, is the exact entitlement mentality that bridles the rest of us who were around when it wasn't all glitter and hacky-sacks, it's a damn shame that this is where the average kid's mindset is now placed, "give me the reason to love car audio, don't just tell me you love it" or some BS that puts the reasons for doing the work squarely on the shoulders of those who know how and keeps the young'un's hands free to tap on their little touchscreen windows to a text world.


Again you're just rambling about how you think the current generation sucks. No one is saying hold their hands and wipe their ass for them. I'm saying if you run into someone younger than you that has a budding interest in this hobby help them out and don't treat them like crap because they're young and lack your knowledge.


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## Hi-FiDelity (Jan 22, 2013)

cajunner said:


> you know how many people I've helped, just here in this forum?
> 
> maybe there's some criticism as to whether I was helpful or the info was correct, but I've put in the posts and I've given great answers to a lot of people's questions, and not once did I ever qualify them by asking them if they were a kid or if they cared about music or whatever, I help all comers.


You realize that nothing I'm saying applies to you directly. I'm not calling you an entitled **** that treats people like ****, I don't know you personally. Honestly you've come across as a pretty helpful guy when I've seen you post, **** if you lived in Illinois I'd be more than willing to have beer with you and shoot the **** about car audio. This isn't a personal vendetta, I made a comment as a young person as one of the things I've seen that can deter new blood. 




cajunner said:


> t was never about that, and it still isn't. The only reason I stepped off on the younger generation's tendency towards apathetic responses and complaining when asked to do something, is because that's not how anyone learns, it's how people get by when slacking off. that's the issue here, I'm not saying I won't help kids who just know the boom, they have to show me they want to improve before it makes any sense to spend time and effort in educating them about the finer things.


I agree I'm not saying you help every one that ask a simple question. I'm also not saying you have to do the hard work for them. If they don't want to learn **** them. It's when someone's are elbow deep in a build and they need help thats when you help and as I said initially this forum doesn't seem to be full of people that say "**** you figure it out on your own" and thats what this hobby needs. 



cajunner said:


> what you're doing is trying to twist it around so it looks like I'm not helping or I'm not sharing, you're trying to put that ol' guilt trip on me and that's not going to get your generation anywhere but back out the door. It's disrespectful and it's as if you are entitled to stand in my face and say it's my fault car audio is failing the younger generation.
> 
> 
> You may not be able to see clearly where the logic stops in that whole exchange but someone who has dealt with these sorts of tricks will easily discern what's going on here.


Again I think you're taking my posts as personal attack. This was never a "Cajrunner is the reason the hobby is dead/dying" I made a comment that when people feel like they are being viewed/treated like garbage because of inexperience even when they are trying to gain that experience it turns them off from the hobby be it audi/cars/computer/models.


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## DonH (Jun 25, 2009)

Its not dead, This forum is still here, there are still audio shops etc. just saw slower growth and eventually hit a plateau. basic product life cycle but in a bigger picture.


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## Hi-FiDelity (Jan 22, 2013)

cajunner said:


> I understand that, and I'm teetering on making my answers/replies to your posts, similarly personal without being personal, right.


As I said this was never a personal attack on you. but if you want to fire back then go for it, I'm a man I've got tough skin. 



cajunner said:


> You still don't really understand, and I guess you believe that I was like you are, when I was younger and I'm trying to explain to you that it was different, people were different, the information wasn't there, the sharing and expected help didn't come whenever you wanted it to, you couldn't just jump from one screen name to the next when you upset someone....


I'm 24, I remember a time before the internet. I remember having to scour magazine's for information. I remember having to go to the library to use a computer because they were still fairly expensive. I also know that information wasn't available on demand and you sometimes had to figure it out yourself. That's how I build my first PC i scoured the back pages of PC gamer and PC World looking at parts, getting prices and then buying the parts at the regional computer show. There may have been some forums from me but they were in some dusty corner of the internet which was still pretty primitive at the time. Also I've never and will never and don't tell people to change screen names cause I/they "pissed someone off". 




cajunner said:


> I know, it's harsh and all, having to actually give someone their rightfully earned respect and go dark when they are illuminating a situation, some kids will never really understand it until they are much older and the school of hard knocks has put enough dents into their melon. Getting into someone's face and demanding **** never used to work, but today kids don't get learned, they don't get disciplined and it's spilling over into everything, even car freak'n audio.


It's not harsh or hard for me to grasp that you show someone that's knowledgeable some respect but at the same time they should show you a modicum of respect for being able to admit "I don't know **** but you do, I would appreciate it if you could lay some knowledge on me". Thats where I'm coming from and that for the most part has been my experience in this hobby. The small amount of information I've learned I learned from the installer and techs at the shop I worked at in high school. I showed them respect because they knew more than I and they were teaching me and while they gave me **** every now and then for being the punk kid they showed me some respect for listening and using their knowledge to do things and not expecting them to do it for me. It's my belief you show respect you get respect. I don't see much benefit from showing respect and getting shat on in return and I think you can agree with that as well.


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## gravel (Jun 24, 2012)

Car audio is dead? Not to me.. whenever I buy a car I add speakers, amps, whatever it needs until I'm happy with the sound. The last 8-10 years have been a huge improvement to me. Information is available, parts are less expensive, I can get great sound for less money and I don't have to deal with the impossibly arrogant "local guru" like I used to. Always done my own research and installations, that used to make me an outcast with the local shops, they always wanted me to fit into their customer mold and hand over whatever amount of money they demanded. 
Car audio is better than ever, IMHO..


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

cajunner said:


> well, maybe you're not falling into the category of entitled young kid, as much as you appeared to be when you first made contact, and that's good.
> 
> the issues here are what to do with the liberal academicians and their 'nobody loses' mindset, who develop the school policies and the liberal judges who develop the interpretations of the law, and their "spanking is child abuse, letting a kid go to bed without supper is neglect" reactionary biases color the world a different hue.
> 
> ...


You are making some ridiculous generalisations about young people. And you are turning this thread into your own political agenda. I suppose you want us all to believe you were this very respectful teenager that did no wrong. Get off your high horse. If I was 18 and I heard you spouting your nonsense I doubt if I would show you much respect either. You seem to take yourself quite seriously like you are some kind of guru or something. This whole " Sonny when I was your age we walked 5 miles to school uphill both ways" thing is starting to sound silly. I am new here and forgive me for being direct. But the way you are talking to these younger people is out of line. Rant over.


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

I am not sure what age or political views have to do with car audio. And yes the debate between generations will affect us all. However some might be wise enough to realise they are sounding like an old fart who is out of touch. I am sure when you were listening to heavy metal on your 6x9s you never imagined yourself preaching to young people. Perhaps you learned that bullying was ok. Well it wasn't ok then and it isn't ok now.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Car audio is dead, why am I always the last to know these things lol. Seriously I don't feel it's dead as much as I feel it's evolving. Just as automobiles change, so do our needs. I for one will always have some form of audio in my vehicles, with the thought that its just what I do.


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity (Sep 12, 2012)

Vega-LE said:


> Look at the type of music most younger people listen to now-a-days. They don't care about SQ or having a quality stereo. *They don't have a clue what music is suppose to sound like.* Yeah, I know that's subjective.


Probably because no one has showed them.

What would you think of time if no one introduced you to Einstein? Probably the same as Newton did.


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity (Sep 12, 2012)

Coppertone said:


> Car audio is dead, why am I always the last to know these things lol. Seriously I don't feel it's dead as much as I feel it's evolving. Just as automobiles change, so do our needs. I for one will always have some form of audio in my vehicles, with the thought that its just what I do.


You keepin off .com coppertone?


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

cajunner said:


> well looky here at the bully trying to tell someone over the internet they're wrong!
> 
> you don't know if I'm not 20 years old either, but you can make assumptions with the best of 'em, eh?
> 
> ...


I am not sure where you learned that browbeating and scolding is a proper form of educating someone. Its just another form of bullying. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and their views. Including you. However making blanket assumptions about any people whether young or old is not clever. Perhaps you have been allowed to impose your narrow minded views on people. But sooner or later you will be called on it.


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## rugdnit (Dec 24, 2007)

dynaudiofile said:


> I am not sure where you learned that browbeating and scolding is a proper form of educating someone. Its just another form of bullying. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and their views. Including you. *However making blanket assumptions about any people whether young or old is not clever.* Perhaps you have been allowed to impose your narrow minded views on people. But sooner or later you will be called on it.


Haven't you heard? It's what we do here....


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

MinnesotaStateUniversity said:


> You keepin off .com coppertone?


Lol, I plead the 5th just know that no matter if we agree or not folks its just NOT that serious.


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## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

generalizing and stereotyping will always exist and i, for the most part, agree with cajunner. look, car audio, as the world knew it in the 90's IS dead, but it's turned into something else. many things have contributed to this, not just one and we are all responsible. i guess the real question is how/why we will sustain the quest for good sound moving forward? less and less people are concerned with quality audio, let alone know what it is. this is documented truth. dynamics have been replaced with loudness, artistry has been replaced with entertainment. honestly, i feel bad for todays youth because they never stood a chance! and it's middle aged farts that are responsible for pushing this new crap on them because it's good business. i'd be willing to bet that car audio, and all audio, would see a resurgence when the next big music 'renaissance' comes through. until then, we are stuck with the underground-crusade of trying to enlighten the rest of the world, young and old


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Maybe we can get Nas to follow up Hip Hop is Dead with Car Audio is dead.


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity (Sep 12, 2012)

Coppertone said:


> Lol, I plead the 5th just know that no matter if we agree or not folks its just NOT that serious.


I can not even begin to describe to you the amount of excitement I feel knowing I'll be able to afford a new vehicle around the time when I complete my degree

I almost thought about putting my build thread on .com

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: yeah right.


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## sqchris (May 27, 2013)

hey hey, my my car audio will never die...


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

Again I just don't think it is a good idea to generalise. Although we all tend to do it. Not all young people are like you are describing. In fact I would guess most aren't anything like that. I would also guess that most are very appreciative of the information that is shared. You almost sound like you think they should jump through hoops to get a question answered. But to each his own. Are you really the same guy that used to drive around with a Mullet and listen to Quiet Riot on his Kraco cassette player and 6x9s? Relax. That guy is still in there. And I doubt he thought like you are thinking now.


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

Car audio is not dead Imo just on hiatus, then high end audio market is booming from what I can see.. But that speaks to a generation gap also I think. and while I certainly AGREE with most of cajunner societal reviews (politics aside),

I'd only add this

The younger generation is only a reflection of the parents that raise them. The hard work and structure that made the past generation, seems to have been lost, especially in young men who barely can change tires, but can navigate 2 Ipads, 1 iPhone, all while driving a car their parents gave them for free.

and couple that with the same product that was made in Iowa or wherever has been moved over seas. So the young man or women has no access to building the product ever, so the actual "VALUE" of the intellectual property, the desire to want to save for that one great product, to put into a car you have dreamed about is over. If adult Americans make everything in China, why would young people who never see an item built, feel the solder, circuit board, heatsinks etc.. Care about the build quality, and ultimately the sound quality. 

Can't blame it all on youthful apathy and disrespect, gotta look into the mirror of the parents too.


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

cajunner said:


> of course not all young people are like I'm describing. There is a knee-jerk response mechanism you may need to control or life will be tough, you know?
> 
> I'm taking into consideration the changes that this last generation has had to come up against, they aren't used to being as circumspect as my generation, and my generation is certainly not as circumspect as the greatest generation, but we may be slightly ahead of the lost generation...
> 
> ...



Blah blah blah blah. The youth of today..... When I was young we had sticks and dirt to play with..... Enough with the whining. Its getting old. Grow your Mullet back and stop being so uptight.


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

Perhaps my last response was a bit harsh. However you are talking like the way you were raised was somehow correct. You were beat or locked in a dungeon and fed gruel for a week. So therefore that is the right way to raise kids. And you keep talking about punishment as if it is somehow a good thing or is necessary to teach someone respect. . Civilisation has moved on my friend. Many cultures never lay a hand on their kids or bully them and the kids have much more respect and consideration than you probably ever did. Again you are making the mistake of assuming your views or the way you were raised is right. I shudder to think that you are passing this mentality on. As if punishment is suppose to be some kind of motivation. And that the way you grew up was somehow correct. I have news for you my friend, it is not the way forward. Although some of your points and observations do have merit. The video games and ipods are just a reality. I am sure they are not allowed in many households. Does that mean the kids that grow up without them will be better people or better adjusted? No it doesn't. Are the kids outside playing baseball instead of playing video games better people? No they aren't. Which one is going to install the better car stereo or be the more generous person?


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

You clearly have been allowed to impose your thoughts and views with no one calling you out on them. I made those comments because that is what you were sounding like. And I used those examples as I thought it might be something you would understand. You seem to be used to bulldozing your way through life. You want to impose your views on everybody yet consider it disrespectful to be challenged. You probably bully people in your household to give you respect but you won't do it here. Respect is earned not taken. As you are learning from these young people who refuse to tolerate your methods. You are also under the grave misconception that you are correct in your views. I have also seen both parenting methodology methods and I have seen what happens to people with yours. I like the way you used the term "tight knit" to describe the "conservative" method. I don't think many "conservatives" subscribe to bullying.


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity (Sep 12, 2012)

dynaudiofile said:


> Blah blah blah blah. The youth of today..... When I was young we had sticks and dirt to play with..... Enough with the whining. Its getting old. Grow your Mullet back and stop being so uptight.


haha sticks!

I make bombs, rockets, walkie talkies, RC vehicles, metal detectors, etc. Lmao, we go to the mall on weekends with a cell phone jammer. -GREAT TIME. Hell, we built an atom accelerator the end of our freshman year. 

I guess if I didn't have the internet, I'd be playing with sticks too

Just wait a few generations until kids can start controlling things w/ their minds


edit, ya'll are getting too fancy


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

dynaudiofile said:


> You clearly have been allowed to impose your thoughts and views with no one calling you out on them. I made those comments because that is what you were sounding like. And I used those examples as I thought it might be something you would understand. You seem to be used to bulldozing your way through life. You want to impose your views on everybody yet consider it disrespectful to be challenged. You probably bully people in your household to give you respect but you won't do it here. Respect is earned not taken. As you are learning from these young people who refuse to tolerate your methods. You are also under the grave misconception that you are correct in your views. I have also seen both parenting methodology methods and I have seen what happens to people with yours. I like the way you used the term "tight knit" to describe the "conservative" method. I don't think many "conservatives" subscribe to bullying.


I call him on it all the time He's one of my favorite arguers


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

Pinko Commie? Lol you are a funny guy. Do you realise how ridiculous you sound? I don't see myself in any of the situations you described as I don't suffer fools gladly. Also as you are finding out I don't suffer bullies gladly. Sounds like you have been in those situations yourself so now you think that becoming a bully will protect you from it. I understand that you have led a sheltered life and probably have never travelled more than 100 miles from where you grew up. But its not too late for you to travel and educate yourself. The first few times you get laughed at might hurt a bit but give it some time. I do believe you can teach an old dog new tricks. So there is hope for you.


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

cajunner said:


> I was gonna say, Boosted Nihilist and this guy are never on at the same time, hahaha...
> 
> but then what do I care if people choose to target me for some online smiles, I do the same.
> 
> ...


If you are referring to me, I can assure you I have never been a member here before. I am new. But I would like some links to this Boosted Nihilists post. Sounds like he didn't tolerate your nonsense either.


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

AWC said:


> I call him on it all the time He's one of my favorite arguers


I must admit I would enjoy it a bit more if he did argue. But he doesn't seem very capable of a debate.


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

Yes. Round and round we go. All kids today are bad. Everyone who does not subscribe to your beliefs is a Pinko Commie. Everyone has to jump through a hoop or say the magic word to earn your respect. Anyone that thinks for themselves instead of following the "law" you have laid down is a liberal. Sorry its not working. I am surprised you have been allowed to get away with it in the past. Again typical bully tactics. You shoot your mouth off with your silly views, than hide and call people names when you are called out on your nonsense. You said I would have to "earn" getting to know you. No I don't. I have read enough to know what you are about. If you want to share your knowledge on car audio, please do. If you don't than go home. There are plenty of knowledgable people on here and many of them are more more knowledgeable than you are. None of them would speak to that kid the way you did. I don't see them putting on a political convention or acting self righteous either. You are not our guru. This is not your house. And you are not our father. Get some manners and behave yourself. I hate to be the one to give you a reality check, but someone has to.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

dynaudiofile said:


> I must admit I would enjoy it a bit more if he did argue. But he doesn't seem very capable of a debate.


He's very capable. I'm pretty sure he's saying exactly what he wants said. Perhaps you aren't sure of his goals quite yet. He can be slippery. You're doing fine


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

Why would I report you or leave comments? You are doing a wonderful job of digging yourself in deeper. Its hilarious that now you have retreated into your cave and have resorted to taunting. Its about what I expected.


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

AWC said:


> He's very capable. I'm pretty sure he's saying exactly what he wants said. Perhaps you aren't sure of his goals quite yet. He can be slippery. You're doing fine


Thanks for the tip. He is not that clever. Nor that slippery. Textbook bully. I found his comment about me having a disobedient child and conniving woman and having a mean boss interesting. Perhaps he thinks the answer is terrorising his family and being the mean boss himself. Which is probably the case.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

dynaudiofile said:


> Thanks for the tip. He is not that clever. Nor that slippery. Textbook bully. I found his comment about me having a disobedient child and conniving woman and having a mean boss interesting. Perhaps he thinks the answer is terrorising his family and being the mean boss himself. Which is probably the case.


Well you know that's not true. He's a good guy. I think you just pissed him off


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

AWC said:


> Well you know that's not true. He's a good guy. I think you just pissed him off


Yes I can tell he is a good guy deep down. My intention was not to piss him off. It was simply to call attention to errors in his thinking. And to let him know bullying will not be tolerated in the real world.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

dynaudiofile said:


> Yes I can tell he is a good guy deep down. My intention was not to piss him off. It was simply to call attention to errors in his thinking. And to let him know bullying will not be tolerated in the real world.


Since when is this the real world?


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

cajunner said:


> that's it?
> 
> no public outcry, no humiliating name-calling? What happened?
> 
> ...


Yawn. This is getting boring now. You are grasping for straws and starting to sound pathetic. Time to move on.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

cajunner said:


> awww, man...
> 
> 
> I'm losing my touch.


You're at the top of your game


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

Wasn't much of an assist. He suggested you were slippery and smart. I made it clear you were neither.


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

cajunner said:


> that's it, come back to me baby, you know my love is the best...


Not much point. You have already been owned. For me to expose your nastiness further will be of no benefit to this forum. You are doing a wonderful job of that on your own. Probably best for you to retreat back into your cave and lick your wounds. Just don't take your frustrations out on those around you.


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

Ok than. As a peace offering I would like to suggest you get one of these. It can remind you of your youth when you probably weren't so uptight. Maybe you can put it on once in a while and listen to Loverboy. It might bring you back to your glory days when you were probably fun to be around. 

Mullet Wig in Costume Wigs and Facial Hair | eBay


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

It was for your benefit not mine. But never mind. If you don't want to relive your glory days that is your choice. I just thought it might help with that big chip on your shoulder.


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

Anyways as I said you are boring me now. I got bigger fish to fry. Probably a good idea to keep your silly political views off of forums not designed for it. Probably also a good idea to know when to keep your trap shut so you don't make yourself look foolish. I hope I didn't make you too angry and I think you can learn from this experience. As I said an old dog can learn new tricks. My apologies to the OP for letting this thread get derailed.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

dynaudiofile said:


> Anyways as I said you are boring me now. I got bigger fish to fry. Probably a good idea to keep your silly political views off of forums not designed for it. *Probably also a good idea to know when to keep your trap shut so you don't make yourself look foolish.* I hope I didn't make you too angry and I think you can learn from this experience. As I said an old dog can learn new tricks. My apologies to the OP for letting this thread get derailed.


I'm not sure you understood the over-all goal. I'm thinking you don't even know how owned you got. You'll learn. It seemed to me that he played you like a fiddle. He never argued anything because he was just toying with you. He's a lot smarter than you gave him credit for


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity (Sep 12, 2012)

You guys do know you only have one life right?


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

MinnesotaStateUniversity said:


> You guys do know you only have one life right?


That's an assumption


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

Its very important to understand that arguing is a choice we make. As long as you don't take things personal, these arguments are how friendships are made. I am always for healthy debate, but don't forget that it is just a debate. None of it is real. Just good fun, intellectual sparring makes people smarter. Just don't go to personal, its not worth it. Its a lesson that is hard to learn


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## Shadowmarx (Feb 12, 2012)

Obama... lol....


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## Earzbleed (Feb 10, 2013)

"Tough economic times: Car audio seen as unneeded luxury item "
Yepp. I'm not sure what it's like where other live but round these parts, the Cash Converters and other pawn stores have more subs and amps than any other type of merchandise. Seems as soons as hard times hit, out comes the sub and amp and off to get 1/10 it's value for it. I've known a few fools who pawned their audio equipment that would have lasted them years, just to buy a bag of weed that lasted them a day or two. Naturally, sales of new equipment drop when there's so much almost-new stuff around for half the price.


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity (Sep 12, 2012)

AWC said:


> That's an assumption


& I guess everything is just an illusion as well, but you don't see me walking through walls

I've read enough about Kaku & Hawking


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

Earzbleed said:


> "Tough economic times: Car audio seen as unneeded luxury item "
> Yepp. I'm not sure what it's like where other live but round these parts, the Cash Converters and other pawn stores have more subs and amps than any other type of merchandise. Seems as soons as hard times hit, out comes the sub and amp and off to get 1/10 it's value for it. I've known a few fools who pawned their audio equipment that would have lasted them years, just to buy a bag of weed that lasted them a day or two. Naturally, sales of new equipment drop when there's so much almost-new stuff around for half the price.


Very good points there. The first thing to go when people are facing economic hardships is the toys or luxury items. I never thought about going to Pawn shops to look for good car audio. Of course by doing that I will be hurting the industry myself.


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

AWC said:


> I'm not sure you understood the over-all goal. I'm thinking you don't even know how owned you got. You'll learn. It seemed to me that he played you like a fiddle. He never argued anything because he was just toying with you. He's a lot smarter than you gave him credit for


Of course you would think that. You are his little stooge after all. Aren't you?


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

dynaudiofile said:


> Of course you would think that. You are his little stooge after all. Aren't you?


Lol. Never thought I'd read that.


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

cajunner said:


> yeah, you're new.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Keep grasping. You are going to have to work harder than that.


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## inspector3711 (Apr 11, 2013)

One of the issues I see here is the law. If the police can hear you more than 75 feet away in some cities you can get a ticket.


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

inspector3711 said:


> One of the issues I see here is the law. If the police can hear you more than 75 feet away in some cities you can get a ticket.


Yes. People should be able to listen to music if they want to. However it is always good to be considerate of other people when doing so. However giving tickets out is a bit extreme. At least we have someone in charge like Obama, who is doing his best to protect the rights of the individual and prevent these kinds of things from happening.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

cajunner said:


> yeah, you're new.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Boosted Nihilist is a good guy too. His thought processes are closer to my own. I've never gotten the impression he was anything other than a stand up guy capable of decent conversation. I'm not sure its fair for you to squabble with junior, here, and somehow manage to insult BN over the deal. Is that fair?


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

inspector3711 said:


> One of the issues I see here is the law. If the police can hear you more than 75 feet away in some cities you can get a ticket.


What kind of inspector are you? I retired as QAS.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

cajunner said:


> it might be fair.
> 
> I wouldn't have thought it to be fair, or else I wouldn't have made the association and the assumption, if I wasn't more than mildly convinced that dyn is BN and on a mission. It's not the way a new person to a forum acts, or interacts and dyn's answers are not the answers of a person without prior knowledge.
> 
> ...


BN is the stalker type, huh? Oddly enough, BN has never made massive assumptions about me, assumptions designed to offend and condescend. You disagree with his views, but you are absolutely guilty of dirty play and completely deserving of any special tactics required to get a rise out of you. Let's face it. Its simpler than that. BN is a liberal. You're completely incapable of considering any perceived liberal anything other than someone out for freebies. You're so convinced that you're right that you never bothered to ask around. You're propensity to assume is the biggest tag on your credibility. You're such a smart guy and yet its always cheap shots because somebody disagrees with your stance. That's the very definition of a free country. Don't be a hitler. Let people be free on their own terms.

I personally believe that you or BN would do anything in your power to assist me were I in times of need. Its time you show some respect to those who have agreed to be your friendly nemesis.mYou started this too. 

Diyma needs to learn that arguing isn't bad. Its what we're here for. We don't know each other well enough to ever make a personal stab, so it should be cut from the program.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

Allow me to reclarify. BN is member of this community. JAX is a member of this community. If you want to value this community, I'd suggest that you value BN, Adub and JAX. You have the chance to hear what we're thinking. If you can manage to not call us stupid, we very well might actually understand each other.

I'd ask you to research te Sadr city battle to try and understand me. I'd ask you to ask BN what makes him him. He's a smart guy that makes good points. It is hard to consider that many of us might be just as smart or smarter than you.

Cajunner, I love you like a little retarded sister, but you allow yourself an opportunity to hate. If any one thing can destroy this world its undefined hatred. 

If it helps, I love you. I've always appreciated your whit. I think you're smart and maybe a little afraid to shoot for wise. I cherish the relationships I have that are based on comprable intellect (not that you're anywhere near as smart as me)


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

Pass the puke bucket.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

dynaudiofile said:


> Pass the puke bucket.


You been here a week. We friggin' care. You're the guy that got played by out of tune fiddle. Maybe you shouldn't have argued against a guy that was out of your league. You don't even know wht happened:laugh:


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

AWC said:


> You been here a week. We friggin' care. You're the guy that got played by out of tune fiddle. Maybe you shouldn't have argued against a guy that was out of your league. You don't even know wht happened:laugh:


Sorry but you are a bit hard to take seriously right now. I saw past all of his childish tricks. I read only a few post by the guy and got his number. He still thinks I am someone else because "I know too much". You give him way too much credit. But of course you are entitled to your opinion.


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## inspector3711 (Apr 11, 2013)

> What kind of inspector are you? I retired as QAS.


I'm a former FAA Designee (DMIR). I worked in that position for ten years. I'm currently working as a Test QA FAA Coordinator at Boeing. I've inspected everything from machined parts to wiring in the last 17 years or so. Before that I was a mechanic, starting in 1985.



> Yes. People should be able to listen to music if they want to. However it is always good to be considerate of other people when doing so. However giving tickets out is a bit extreme. At least we have someone in charge like Obama, who is doing his best to protect the rights of the individual and prevent these kinds of things from happening.


I'm always considerate. I turn it down at stop lights, and keep it low in neighborhoods. The laws started being passed back when subwoofers first started to become more common. Interesting that they cracked down on it here since people pride themselves on living in a "liberal" area. Don't get me started on the current administration... I'm a firearms enthusiast, nuff said.

I had a state patrol officer gesture for me to turn it down once. I was stuck in traffic on the freeway and didn't even have a subwoofer at the time. Probably lucky I wasn't cited.

Back in the early 90's they started banning cruising around here. Stores were being vandalized and parking lots were full of broken bottles on Saturday morning. Some of the better performance parts stores went out of business not long after. 

Some of the cities actually had cameras set up. If you passed that camera too many times in one evening you could be cited. Little did I know that we'd have cameras on every corner eventually.

It's another case of a few bad eggs messing things up for the rest of us.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

these noise ordinance laws are just jealousy, plain and simple. someone spent the time and money to get something you cant or dont have. how does it hurt ANYONE if you have a loud stereo on the freeway, lol?

as I have pointed out before. the guy with his 1200cc harley with straight pipes will NEVER EVER in a million years get told to "turn it down" or get a ticket and those things are far and away louder and more obnoxious. [/rant off]


back on topic, I havent read all those pages but I think 2 things have made car audio less popular. 

1) stock systems are ALOT better than 20 years ago. so to justify $2k to upgrade a system is harder decision.
2) fully integrated dashes. gone are the days when you can pull the stock radio and shove an aftermarket in its place in 1/2 an hour. some cars are simple not possible to replace the HU at all. This extra complexity makes the inexperienced backyard installers shy away.


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

I see the demise of the car audio industry as follows:
- OEM stereos have vastly improved, satisfying the majority of people (in fact to the point where the only reason some people come into the shop is because their stock speaker blew or their kid stuck coins in their radio's CD player slot).
- OEM stereos (and dashboards) have become extremely difficult to replace or integrate with, requiring a large amount of labor complexity and thus cost (scaring people away)
- Dash kits are often of such poor grade that they look terrible and don't work well; we actually have to prepare a customer for a dash that doesn't look as "pretty" too often and custom work is extremely expensive
- Wiring has gotten ridiculously expensive and, at the same time, often lower grade
- There are so many options that customers become confused, flustered and stuck. Going to a car audio shop is often not an option for folks and even then, because they are so inundated with internet speak they often do not believe the advice of someone they speak with at a car audio shop, if they decide to walk into one
- Best Buy (their car audio section is always ignored, a mess, and full of junk)
- Pricing... the cost of labor, product, and especially wires/dash kits/adapters/interfaces are incredibly expensive. A simple radio install can end up $150-250 on top of the radio. The days of just getting a harness and kit are gone, on newer cars.
- Build quality of cars... often replacing speakers leads to ridiculous vibrations which requires expensive and invasive materials (like Dynamat) to stop
- Results... too often I see the replacement of speakers result in "less bass" or "not more bass" as the customer wanted and people are sick of hearing... well get subwoofer or get more expensive speakers or Dynamat or seal the door or this than and the other.
- Built quality and interface of head units... let's be honest... even the expensive models often look and feel cheap and, unless you spend big bucks, 2DIN head units are often extremely slow and dissatisfying. The expensive ones aren't even that great. People tell me all the time... why I can I buy a $300 tablet with a faster, more fluid, and nicer looking interface against this $1,200 head unit? There shouldn't be such a gap.
- Car audio HU manufactures are seriously behind the times. With the recent exception of Kenwood, they adhere to their own user interfaces (on 2DINs) that are, again, slow and often not particularly well thought out. My Alpine is terribly laid out. Pioneer's aren't too bad, but the point still sticks
- Lots of people have cell phones. Nobody uses CD's. More and more people I speak to, once coming to the realization that they indeed don't use CD's, like the concept of Pioneer's App Radio or digital media HUs but because iPhones and Android devices connect with different cables and use different operating systems, it's not always fluid and the capabilities are limited. People like the idea of their phone being their head unit but don't like the idea of their head unit only doing "certain things" their phone can do.
- Tons of people have iPhones. Where is the head unit that simply docks the iPhone in horizontal configuration right up there in the dash? For a lot of folks, the "bigger screen" of a 2DIN isn't the selling point (unless it simple replicates what's on the phone). Instead the just want a spot to cleanly integrate their phone and still see it, use its navi features, etc.
- Gimmicks - of all the basic car audio systems I've installed, some speakers say they have neo magnets and fancy this and fancy that and all of that fancy stuff will lead to better sound quality with amazing bass and perfect highs and blah blah blah. Too often they all sound so much alike to the average customer IN A CAR that it's a moot point.
- No basic understanding of system design. People do not understand how to properly (and mathematically) design a car audio system. They don't understand the importance of enclosure and box design. They don't understand imaging. There's no "help" except by reading for hours on these forums.
- Sound processors are extremely expensive and yet another thing to mount and power. Back in high school, I had a pioneer head unit that cost $250 that had a mic for time alignment. Now I can't find a single head unit with this feature at that price point. My $700 (MSRP) Alpine should have included this... frankly it was more expensive per feature than any other model of the time and, for what, Burr Brown DAC? I got it because it matched my dash the best... which brings me to
- Aesthetics - when are car audio HU manufactures going to realize that most car dashes don't have shiny black plastic? Most car dashes are matte. Most car dashes look terrible with a slightly rounded face shiny blinky head unit with text that doesn't quite match the text look in the rest of the car.
- In kind with the above - not enough fully integrated options. Companies like Advent/Audiovox make integrated head units. They're expensive but the insides of them aren't impressive... so what's the point (to some people)?
- Plastic clips. So many f'ing doors are held on by plastic clips. They break. They are the most annoying things in the world and basic DIY folks break them all the time. Even seasoned pros break clips. And they never seem to go back in as tightly as before. Why can't car companies just use screws?! Even hard plastic screws. Yes... more expensive for the manufacturer and mocos are't going to build cars so they can be taken apart by a garage car audio fanatic. But the point is still valid.
- Car door speaker enclosures. The easiest cars to install in are those that have a sort of pod or plastic "area" where speakers can be installed not requiring adapters. You don't have to screw directly to metal (resonance city) and, in some cars (like a Jeep for example), the speaker end up in a nice little enclosure that encourages quality sound.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Wow!! y'all have a ton of time on your hands......and I mean y'all


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

cajunner said:


> I don't hate, though.
> 
> You've put me in this box because I identify more closely with conservative ideals and ideology, and because I have to fight the inherent biases of everyday life (MSM, our President, down to neighbors who are on Fed tit) which are mostly one way, it appears as though I'm attacking. I feel like most of my commentary politically is pretty even-keeled but because it's an oppositional force, it gets picked up and perceived as the pointy finger.
> 
> ...


I still don't think of myself as liberal. I think anytime you label someone, especially a label you've proven to dislike, it may not be hate, but its not good. For you to suggest that I take handouts because we disagree, politically, is a source of frustration. Especially when its based on assumptions that aren't true. 

My standing up for BN is not me picking any sides or saying you're right or wrong. He's been around long enough to have the chance to defend himself.

I've pissed off a lot of people while arguing. I hope like hell people don't hold a grudge over the deal. I guarantee you've said some things that I could totally hold a grudge about. I'm doing my best to let all of that pass out of my life. I don't want the conflicts that I can easily avoid. I also believe that loyalty is the one thing that I can give to members of this community. I try for respect but I suck at it, so at least most can say that I'm loyal to those who seem to deserve it. I think it pays itself back, someday.

As far as all of this with Dyn....lol...I never read what the hell y'all were talking about:laugh::laugh::laugh:

One thing for sure, I never put you in any box. I've remarked on the box you put yourself in, we all do that.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

According to a member who is no longer on this forum, I killed car audio.

Top that! :laugh:


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## GRIFTER9931 (Aug 30, 2009)

Such an interesting topic....
Just my perspective, YMMV with some of these thoughts.

1. The way shops treat new customers. Instead of trying to educate customers on quality products shops will push/lie about whatever product fits your budget. Instead of being honest and saying hey product A will serve your need etc.. But product B will be a good starting point so you can be on your way to a good foundation for a killer system.

2. Customers being idiots. Most customers will not ask questions and don't seem to mind being spoon fed any garbage being spouted to them. But are quick to jump on "WEB MD" to question a Dr.... People are unreal

3. Auto Tune... Killed allot of people's desire for good sounding systems because dropping $$$$ for your system to sound like a chipmunk isn't cute.

4. HIP HOP...... It's all bass... Essentially all you need is to bump the hook with the bass turned up and thats considered music..... Absolutely brutal... Same with clubs. Bass heavy, because thats what we are listening to at gyms or football games, or baseball games or Basketball games....

5. IEM's...... Personal Audio has improved 10000 fold within the last 20 years.
Custom molded iem's with 8 drivers per ear. Personal Amps the size of an tic tac box with lossless audio from various players. Attached is a link to a personal audio setup The JH16 Pro Appreciation Thread 

6. Home Video & Audio... 80" tv's and compatible sound systems have robbed the car audio scene of some if it's members. Because you can share to a bigger base and enjoy even better sound without the distraction of driving. 

7. Misinformation.... Its everywhere and in order to get an answer you have to sort through major Bull ****/Fanboy-ism.

8. Economy... 

That's my list for now


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

cajunner said:


> I don't hate, though.
> 
> You've put me in this box because I identify more closely with conservative ideals and ideology, and because I have to fight the inherent biases of everyday life (MSM, our President, down to neighbors who are on Fed tit) which are mostly one way, it appears as though I'm attacking. I feel like most of my commentary politically is pretty even-keeled but because it's an oppositional force, it gets picked up and perceived as the pointy finger.
> 
> ...



Although I would love to open my bleeding heart to you I am still not buying. Do you seriously think your political commentary is even keeled? If you do than you really need to wake up. If you are disillusioned with your local area I can certainly understand that. If you are fed up with the system I can understand that as well. However its probably best for you to share your political views with friends or forums designed for that kind of thing. Perhaps you never learned that it is considered bad manners to talk about politics or religion in social gatherings. 

You have to fight the biases of everyday life? Awwww poor thing. Do we really need to hear you whine because the world isn't subscribing to your idea of how it should be done? You are the one who is severely biased. And I have a feeling you will never see it. AWC was quite a gentleman for accepting you and the views you have been laying on everybody. Unfortunately he doesn't realise you would never consider him worthy of friendship because you think he is a "liberal". No matter how many times he puts his hand out you will be too blind to take it. Sad.

I could care less about your silly political views. Carry on with your uninformed, self righteous, and holier than thou musings. But please do us all a favour and do it at home where they have no choice but to listen to it. 

I think we can lay this to rest now. Some of it has been in good fun. It hasn't accomplished anything, however hopefully you might think next time you choose to bring up your misinformed views on the world. Go forth and be good. Mind your manners.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

cajunner said:


> couple things:
> 
> I haven't said you were a taker, AFAIK. I know you did say you weren't a liberal but usually flip on the liberal side of the room, and that's nothing to hate or disrespect, it's incorrect to assume that I have dumped you into a refuse bag labeled "liberals" and that's as far as my thinking can manage.
> 
> ...


And I have always understood that.  I still think you over think most people's political loyalties. Most people have expressed an opinion that doesn't mean they meant to define themselves by that opinion. I think there are so many different political issues that need to be dealt with differently. I can't commit to a side. Therefore, I don't see these things as absolutes...to the point that I often don't see how you got political out of the discussion. You're just more focused on these issues than I am.


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

cajunner said:


> wait, was I talking to you?
> 
> din't think so..


Not sure. You were just rambling on as usual.


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

AWC said:


> And I have always understood that.  I still think you over think most people's political loyalties. Most people have expressed an opinion that doesn't mean they meant to define themselves by that opinion. I think there are so many different political issues that need to be dealt with differently. I can't commit to a side. Therefore, I don't see these things as absolutes...to the point that I often don't see how you got political out of the discussion. You're just more focused on these issues than I am.


Awwwwww. How cute. We have a crush going on. I am not sure it is going to work out with you two. But good luck.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

dynaudiofile said:


> Not sure. You were just rambling on as usual.


You've been here enough to know "as usual"? You do see that date next to your name, right?


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## Hi-FiDelity (Jan 22, 2013)

I don't really like to get involved in politics much, I don't care what your beliefs are and I'll respect the fact that every has their own thoughts. My issue is is everyone love to blame Obama for every little damn thing that's happening right now. Yeah he's not the greatest president and yeah he's approved/supported some BS legislation but show me a president that hasn't. My issue is every one seems to be ignoring the fact that the Senate (full of DEM and REP) is passing even more BS. For example Cash for Clunkers was initially a good idea, get old crumbling cars off the road and in the junkyard where they can be used for parts and giving Joe blow some money (a decent amount most times) so he could buy a new US built car. The problem was there were too many Generals and not enough Soldiers, everyone wanted to make their mark so they tried to shoehorn in there own ideas and clauses regardless if they were practical or made sense. It just get's annoying when people shout "It's Obama's fault everything sucks" I mean it's not like Bush wasn't ****ing **** up for the previous 8 years. The issue isn't the political ideologies it's the fact that the people that we choose to represent us are so far detached from the normal working class life that they can't even dream that someone actually HAS (not chooses) to live on less than $20,000 a year salary. Ok rant over. 

As far a s car audio goes, there are a variety of things that have slowed it down and placed it where it is (Lack of Knowledge, Close Mindedness, lack of distribution/marketing, ect). Though with that said I wouldn't say it's dead, it's really just evolving and incorporating new technologies. I mean take a look at an what was called an "Audio Processor" 10 years ago and look what is called one now. There is a big difference between an Audiocontrol DQS and a Rockford Fosgate 3sixty.3.


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

cajunner said:


> couple things:
> 
> I haven't said you were a taker, AFAIK. I know you did say you weren't a liberal but usually flip on the liberal side of the room, and that's nothing to hate or disrespect, it's incorrect to assume that I have dumped you into a refuse bag labeled "liberals" and that's as far as my thinking can manage.
> 
> ...



Pretty typical. You probably don't realise this but most of the rest of the world take this same policy. Get rid of old cars so people drive newer cleaner cars. Cleaner air for everybody. Of course you wouldn't get that because you probably think its ok to drive by yourself in your big V8 SUV or Pickup truck. 

Who cares about California or the rest of the world for that matter? Certainly not you. Your "I'm alright jack" mentality won't help you in the long run. You just want to breathe your clean air. I got news for you that clean air ain't gonna help you much when you get another hurricane pounding your beautiful Cajun country. All because people like you don't care about what you are doing to the planet. Your "me me me" self serving attitude is exactly what creates the "me me me" attitude in the kids you are complaining about. Of course that is not your problem, its your kids problem. As it is them who will probably have to suffer so you could rescue a 20 year old engine that gets 15 miles to the gallon. 
I'm alright jack, who cares about you......


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

dynaudiofile said:


> Pretty typical. You probably don't realise this but most of the rest of the world take this same policy. Get rid of old cars so people drive newer cleaner cars. Cleaner air for everybody. Of course you wouldn't get that because you probably think its ok to drive by yourself in your big V8 SUV or Pickup truck.
> 
> Who cares about California or the rest of the world for that matter? Certainly not you. Your "I'm alright jack" mentality won't help you in the long run. You just want to breathe your clean air. I got news for you that clean air ain't gonna help you much when you get another hurricane pounding your beautiful Cajun country. All because people like you don't care about what you are doing to the planet. Your "me me me" self serving attitude is exactly what creates the "me me me" attitude in the kids you are complaining about. Of course that is not your problem, its your kids problem. As it is them who will probably have to suffer so you could rescue a 20 year old engine that gets 15 miles to the gallon.
> I'm alright jack, who cares about you......


Whoah. Cool story bro.


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## Hi-FiDelity (Jan 22, 2013)

dynaudiofile said:


> Pretty typical. You probably don't realise this but most of the rest of the world take this same policy. Get rid of old cars so people drive newer cleaner cars. Cleaner air for everybody. Of course you wouldn't get that because you probably think its ok to drive by yourself in your big V8 SUV or Pickup truck.
> 
> Who cares about California or the rest of the world for that matter? Certainly not you. Your "I'm alright jack" mentality won't help you in the long run. You just want to breathe your clean air. I got news for you that clean air ain't gonna help you much when you get another hurricane pounding your beautiful Cajun country. All because people like you don't care about what you are doing to the planet. Your "me me me" self serving attitude is exactly what creates the "me me me" attitude in the kids you are complaining about. Of course that is not your problem, its your kids problem. As it is them who will probably have to suffer so you could rescue a 20 year old engine that gets 15 miles to the gallon.
> I'm alright jack, who cares about you......


Scrapping a perfectly working 1993 Buick roadmaster and destroying it's engine and trans (which got 20 MPG city and 27-30 highway) so someone can go buy a hybrid (whose manufacturing causes more environmental damage than that roadmaster did in it's near 20 years of use and still doesn't get the mileage that a simple diesel engine does) isn't helping a damn thing. If you want to help the environment stop focusing on cars and focus on power generation. A coal burning power station does more damage than a small town full of 1980 Cadillac Brougham, so why is no one pushing for tougher laws there? Oh yeah they take senators out to expensive dinners and slip them some cash under that table to take on the scourge that is the old american pushrod V8. Most of the "green" legislation isn't really green when you look at it.


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## Hi-FiDelity (Jan 22, 2013)

cajunner said:


> it is exactly these people following a political ideology that leads people into fulfilling roles that they PRESUME exists, and by way of getting elected, have a PERCEIVED mandate to achieve the party line.


You're not really following a political ideology if you're twisting it to fit your needs. Doesn't matter if you're a DEM or a REP, both parties are basically the same neither one gives a **** about you or me. 



cajunner said:


> Bush may have put a lot of our young people into harm's way to prevent worse, and there's a lot of reasonable argument against doing what he did, but we're looking at the terror jar and saying stuff far removed from the time in which those decisions were made.


Invading Afghanistan made sense, Iraq on the other hand not so much. He also kinda just stood there as the economy tanked, I know he was a lame duck and all by then but still it kinda came across as "Well not my problem any more". 



cajunner said:


> Obama started off with a big roll called TARP and went to spending, and never looked back. It's kind of crazy to say that Obama was capable of overspending Bush's two terms and the cost of the wars, in one term, by the tune of 2 to 1.
> 
> And because Bush spent plenty, liberals think it's a valid argument as to why Obama should be allowed to get crazy with the deficit. Obama didn't have a mandate to produce Solyndra and all these other black holes where trillions have disappeared, he has a condition, a complex that extends into many non-related areas of his presidency, and his cabinet.
> 
> As bad as it is for Obama now, the presidential office is under scrutiny from the MSM. Because, we've seen the magic show from behind the curtain and the news is good when someone's blowing the whistle, and Obama's crew has been really involved, in their "transparent" workings.


I'm not telling you that you need to be the guys BFF or even like him. I'm just pointing out that he's not the only one making dumb as moves and it's rather annoying that people seem to overestimate the thing the president can do. 




cajunner said:


> and what is it being said, really?
> 
> "leave Obama alone!" by the ones that...
> 
> well, need not say. That would be piling on.


Thats not what I'm saying but if thats what you want to hear than be my guest.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

cajunner said:


> there it is, the bright light of the insular liberal ideology on display.
> 
> so, people couldn't have done something other than destroy working vehicles because those vehicles are the polluters and inefficient designs from our past should be thrown away into the refuse heap because you need to feel like you're improving something?
> 
> ...


Lol....cool story bro


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

Is it me or is everybody talking about different things?


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

dynaudiofile said:


> Pretty typical. You probably don't realise this but most of the rest of the world take this same policy. Get rid of old cars so people drive newer cleaner cars. Cleaner air for everybody. Of course you wouldn't get that because you probably think its ok to drive by yourself in your big V8 SUV or Pickup truck.
> 
> Who cares about California or the rest of the world for that matter? Certainly not you. Your "I'm alright jack" mentality won't help you in the long run. You just want to breathe your clean air. I got news for you that clean air ain't gonna help you much when you get another hurricane pounding your beautiful Cajun country. All because people like you don't care about what you are doing to the planet. Your "me me me" self serving attitude is exactly what creates the "me me me" attitude in the kids you are complaining about. Of course that is not your problem, its your kids problem. As it is them who will probably have to suffer so you could rescue a 20 year old engine that gets 15 miles to the gallon.
> I'm alright jack, who cares about you......


Sweet melt bro.
You're out of your element, Donnie. You have no idea what you're speaking about when it comes to this topic.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

cajunner said:


> dude, that 95% dab is gonna take it's toll...
> 
> 
> 
> the convo is what it is, I'm pretty sure given enough time I could tie in the state of car audio today with liberal causes and effects, but we do what we do..


Thanks for that. Its good to know there's always an insult waiting in the bushes.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

All is well. You're a little off your game today


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

Audio companies, computers, and artists killed this hobby.
Things like compressing music, lack of attention to detail. Features distracting from sound quality in deck design. 

As far as sound quality goes anyway...


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## dynaudiofile (Jun 8, 2013)

SaturnSL1 said:


> Sweet melt bro.
> You're out of your element, Donnie. You have no idea what you're speaking about when it comes to this topic.



Very useful addition Einstein.


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## TheFamily (Feb 13, 2013)

JeremyC said:


> I have to agree with this one. I used to hang out at one of the local car audio shops. I even sold some equipment for them when the guys were all busy.


Yeah. My local shop was a hang out. On Sundays we would sit in the waiting room and have a football party. Someone would bring pizza and another person would bring beer. I really miss those Sundays....


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

I'll tell you what I think killed car audio.

The small boutique speaker companies who buy a MOQ of some shelf stock components from a chinese speaker buildhouse, order some cosmetic changes and slap their sticker on, and sell them like they are high end.. without even knowing any details about them like FR or t/s. What's bad is when you privately send them a message with links to the original speaker set from China asking them if theirs are just re-badged and they tell you that although they look the same theirs are different. Puh-leeeease.

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## 05 obs (Feb 28, 2013)

hurrication said:


> I'll tell you what I think killed car audio.
> 
> The small boutique speaker companies who buy a MOQ of some shelf stock components from a chinese speaker buildhouse, order some cosmetic changes and slap their sticker on, and sell them like they are high end.. without even knowing any details about them like FR or t/s. What's bad is when you privately send them a message with links to the original speaker set from China asking them if theirs are just re-badged and they tell you that although they look the same theirs are different. Puh-leeeease.
> 
> ...


whats crazy is their subs are pretty damn impressive and their higher lines are hand built. the shd and hdd are some crazy spl subs.


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity (Sep 12, 2012)

I did.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

Video?


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

AWC said:


> Video?


Holy ****...that counted on my post count


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

dynaudiofile said:


> Very useful addition Einstein.


I didn't have to go any further into detail, cajunner already laid it out for you.

How many times do you need it explained?


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