# Took a break from mobile audio and went full-range!



## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

My MS6 has been installation-complete for several months but I was getting that itch again. Since it is winter and I don't have a garage I figured I would focus my attention elsewhere, like in the house. I decided to build a set of Frugelhorns. 

I ordered the last beta flat-pack from planet10-hifi along with a matched pair of their custom modified Fostex FE126eN eNabled drivers. Since the flat-pack was in beta form there were some modifications I had to make along the way and not everything fit perfectly. A final release flat-pack should be available soon, contact planet10 if you are interested. I probably could have built them from scratch myself but I don't have the space to rip 4x8 sheets of ply...and I haven't had much luck in the past with Home Depot making accurate cuts for me.

Assembly commenced over several days, clamping one or two peices at a time and letting the glue dry before moving to the next. I finished them off with a coat of Minwax oil-based natural stain followed by two coats of minwax oil-based polyurethane. The finish isn't very professional but i wanted something presentable. I may experiment with vineer once I have had my fill of listening to them.

For power I went with a Sonic Impact 5065 Gen 2 T-Amp. It puts out 10w per channel which is more than enough for a full-range system. If you aren't familiar with the T-Amp, it has been a huge phenomenon in the hifi circles and can be compared to amplifiers costing upwards of $10,000. Did I mention it only cost me $80? I plan to mod the amp a little but at the moment it is bone-stock powered off the included power supply.

Powering these babies up for the first time has changed my life. Seriously! Forget bass, forget treble, these horns produce music and that is all you hear. Most car audio systems extract detail from music via crisp tweeters. imagine that same transparency across the entire audio spectrum. When listening to Jazz, you can hear each individual string of an upright bass as the musician plucks away and it smacks against the fret board. Imaging is so pin-point that you can identify which seat each Sax player is sitting in. When listening to vocals, the speakers fill the room with reverb while the vocalist stays planted dead center. Cymbal crashes don't cut through above the rest of the song but still have presence and unbelievable sustain.

The real question people have with full-range speakers is, do they ROCK? I put some Tool in to find out. I cannot give you a yes or no answer since it really depends on what you are looking for. I found myself focusing on different aspects of my rock music, most importantly dynamics. In my car, everything is loud and you tend to focus on the lead line and the thumping bass drum. On the frugels...guitars, no matter how grungy, are still transparent and the detail of the distortion is amazing. i will admit the bass drum doesn't dominate and thump your chest but its presence is known. Proper placement and the addition of a rear deflector or a subwoofer crossed below 50Hz would definitely be a welcome addition. I found myself not needing to crank the volume as high as in the car to get the desired intensity...but as i pushed the speakers louder and louder they never lost composure. I can't say the same for my wife who informed me that the neighbors were going to call the cops if i kept it up. All this from just 10 watts. 

Location and seating position is key with these. I have them in my office / guest bedroom now and moving around on my office chair I can quickly find the sweet spot. Venture out of that spot and the highs drop off gently. Seated directly between them is still enjoyable but I find myself leaning back in my chair off to scoop up a few great waves before returning to my work. The frequency response in the sweet spot is pretty decent (better than any of my car readouts). At loud volumes the peaks near 100 and 200Hz start to become noticeable. For example, Norah Jone's voice will have a touch of boominess as the volume increases. The bass drops off pretty quickly but the only thing you really notice is the lack of XMAX impact. All the notes are there and at equal volume, they just don't punch you.

Overall i am very satisfied with the way they sound. I've heard some great systems before, but none that drew me in like this, and certainly none that could do it for under $1000. First on my list of things to do is experiment with felt and other materials in the compression chamber. Then I want to mod the T-amp to get a little more low end bass out of it. After that I might consider adding a subwoofer. More importantly though, they have me rethinking my car audio system. I definitely have some tuning to do in the car if I want to extract some of the same detail out of my recordings on my ride to and from work.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

They are placed on either side of my desk, about 6' away from each other. The both get some corner loading due to furniture. X marks the sweet spot.


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## 03blueSI (Feb 5, 2006)

Very sweet. I have been contemplating some DIY home audio myself and have been leaning towards folded horns, tranmission lines or open baffle design myself.


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## Ziggy (Nov 29, 2007)

Most inspirational... From the pictures, I actually like the color scheme of the drivers with the finished plywood... Great budget too!


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I don't know much about the Frugal designs since today was the first time I'd laid my eyes on them. 

One question I have is can you use a different/better driver in their designs? That way you might be able to squeeze some extra low end out of them with some extra Xmax. I've now got a lot of reading to do.


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## JediMentality (May 7, 2008)

By chance have any build pics?


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Yes you can use _different _drivers, but you won't find a _better _driver. You'd have to run all the equations again to make sure it is still going to sound appropriate. Keep in mind that more XMAX might give you more bass but the tradeoff is sensitivity, clarity of midrange and high freqency extension. But with that said, there is plenty of room in the design for a larger compression chamber if you want to experiment with different drivers. But if you want to use say a 6.5" driver there are other "spawns" on the site that might be more appropriate...some are pretty large though.

I don't have any build-up photos but if you want to see how they are assembled, this page should give you a pretty good idea.
Flat Pack Prototype Build

Even the flat-pack comes out pretty rough around the edges. Lots of time was spent sanding overhangs to get a smooth finish before I applied the stain and poly.


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## Fixtion (Aug 25, 2006)

i was wondering when you all were going to get into full range drivers.

if anyone has a chance to listen to supravox drivers, please do.

be sure to absorb the first early reflections, as it helps imagine.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Can you tell us anything about their dispersion characteristics?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Their plans look really fun to build. I'd be willing to help anyone in the DFW try one of these out. I've been dying to give kerfing a shot.


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## drocpsu (May 3, 2005)

those are pretty cool. Maybe I missed it, but what'd they cost you for the materials and drivers?


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> Can you tell us anything about their dispersion characteristics?


As I mentioned above, to get the ideal treble response you need to be seated in the "sweet spot" and the drivers have to be angled toward you but not directly at you. You want to be between 10-30 degrees off access for optimum treble response. Outside of that area the treble rolls off gently producing pleasing music which doesn't quite grab your ear the way it does in the sweet spot.

As far as mids go, they fill the room. A good deal of midbass comes out of the horn so with placement you can tune the output to your liking. With my current location, both male and female vocals have a front-row coffee shop quality, as in they fill a small room with ambience but their image is located right in front of you. Adding some poly fill to the horn can reduce the midrange output for further tuning.

Bass as I said before does not shake the china but instead makes you aware of the subtlies of the instruments. I can imagine a pillow or two inside the bass drum which gives it a solid thud without too much reverb. Placement of the drivers in the corners of the room can help improve this.

The horns can also be built with a suprabaffle as seen on the website. This reportedly closes the gap between the front driver rolloff and where the horn picks up, generally between 500-1000Hz. It may also help with the beaming treble by expanding the sweet spot a little. Looking at my graph, I don't appear to have a problem in the 500-1000Hz range so i'm going to hold off on the suprabaffle for now. Plus, the wife thinks it is ugly.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

drocpsu said:


> those are pretty cool. Maybe I missed it, but what'd they cost you for the materials and drivers?


FE126eN modified by planet10-hifi are $240/pr+shipping (~$25).
The beta flat pack was $200+shipping (~$90). Final version will be slightly more.
Sonic Impact amp is $79 from Parts Express
Misc trips to Home Depot for clamps, glue, sand paper, stain, poly, etc were about $50-100.
Total about $750.

Paying to ship baltic birch is not cheap. If you used baltic birch ply from the hardware store ($20-40/sheet) and cut everything yourself you'd save a bundle. if you used MDF (not recommended) you'd save even more. Finally, you could buy stock Fostex FE126e drivers from Madisound for $84/pr and mod them yourself. Make sure you clock 100+ hours on them before making any conclusions.


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## Ziggy (Nov 29, 2007)

OHHH...This is the said beta flat pack -Linkers: Frugel-Horn v1.0 | Flat-Paks
The link in your thread confused me -cause it was general products webpage that showing drivers and such... links on the left.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I didn't bother sending a direct link there because right now they don't have any packs to sell and if people want to build some they're going to have to do it from scratch or wait until more packs are available.


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## drocpsu (May 3, 2005)

chuyler1 said:


> FE126eN modified by planet10-hifi are $240/pr+shipping (~$25).
> The beta flat pack was $200+shipping (~$90). Final version will be slightly more.
> Sonic Impact amp is $79 from Parts Express
> Misc trips to Home Depot for clamps, glue, sand paper, stain, poly, etc were about $50-100.
> ...


wow. $750, that's more than I expected. How would you say they compare to finished speakers in that price range?


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Subtract the amp, and clamps used for construction, and build the cabinets from scratch and they are only $250 for the drivers + $40 for the wood + whatever you use to finish them. You will not find a $300 set of speakers that can outperform these.

The only immediate basis for comparison i have are my old pair of $300 DCM KX-10 3-ways. Lots of positive reviews from non-audiophile people but they are pretty low-end on the hifi spectrum. Needless to say, my frugelhorns make the DCMs sound like they are stuffed under a couch. The DCMs have more deep bass given the bass-reflex 10" design but that's about all they offer that the frugelhorn doesn't surpass.

There are a few other fullrange speakers out there that fit into the same category including this one from which the frugelhorn was spawned. 
6moons audio reviews: The Horn Shoppe The Horn
6moons audio reviews: The HornShoppe Horn
And another based on the same driver.
6moons audio reviews: Atelier Audio First Horn

The catch is that both of those pre-built speakers would benefit from the eNabled process. If you're not going to do it yourself, then the price will more than paying for the frugelhorn flat-pack + eNabled driver.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Using Tool's Lateralus as listening material, I experimented with corner placement today by moving some furniture around. The motivation was the sheer lack of imact that the album had which I couldn't squeeze out of the frugels even with turning the volume up. The wife hasn't gotten home yet so I need to put things back, but I figured I would report my findings.

The first graph is the difference between my original location and corner placement.

Green: 8" from the back wall and 36" from the side wall
Purple: 8" from each wall in the corner.










As you can plainly see, the bass comes to life and this is extremely audible! The sound is a bit boomy though but pulling the speakers farther away from the corner attenuates the corner loading affect.

Next I took some 12"x8"x8" boxes filled with books and stuff and placed two on top of one another behind each speaker. This isn't a precise deflector but I wanted to see what would happen.

Purple: 8" from each wall in the corner
Green: 8" from each wall in the corner with boxes behind them.










The RTA said it cut back the peak between 200-300Hz. What I hear is less muddyness. I guess I'll have to see about permenantly moving the furniture, or finding another room to put these in


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## Valoblk (Nov 25, 2008)

First you inspired me to redo the system in my car with your 'speed 6 build; now this. I'm putting you on notice: If my wife files for divorce on the grounds that I never leave the basement, I'm moving in with you. 

Curse you, oh thief of time........


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## Valoblk (Nov 25, 2008)

First you inspired me to redo the system in my car with your 'speed 6 build; now this. I'm putting you on notice: If my wife files for divorce on the grounds that I never leave the basement, I'm moving in with you. 

Curse you, oh thief of time........


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I read your comment to my wife. She just shook her head and rolled her eyes. I'm thinking the week and a half of smelling polyurethane in the house has negated the sonic nirvana emanating from my latest project. I don't have the heart to tell her I need to add another coat. Maybe I'll wait until spring when I can do it outside.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Looks like I'll be making a set of these this coming spring. Thanks for sharing your experience, which in turn introduced me to the whole idea.  Not sure which drivers I'll be using yet though. I'm really debating some of the 4" Ti Tang Band drivers. Maybe a HAT L4?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Boostedrex said:


> Looks like I'll be making a set of these this coming spring. Thanks for sharing your experience, which in turn introduced me to the whole idea.  Not sure which drivers I'll be using yet though. I'm really debating some of the 4" Ti Tang Band drivers. Maybe a HAT L4?


I'll admit that I'm very intrigued by the idea and I'd like to do the same. But, how do you think changing out the drivers for different stuff would affect the design requirements? Would you still build roughly the same thing? I'd think there is a LOT of planning that goes into an enclosure like that. Do you think the L4 would cover that much of a frequency spectrum? 

Sounds fun!


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> The Frugal Horn site really has the best information, along with some DIYaudio threads. There have been a number of drivers used, primarily the Fostex range, but there's a design on the site using the CSS FR125 ($70 a piece), as well as a few other drivers.
> 
> Hard to know the L4's suitability. I'd not use them simply because there are proven options available for less money.


The CSS FR125 looks like a much nicer driver with more throw than the Fostex drivers. Where can you get them for $70 each though? I'd like to build some of these; something as beautiful as it sounds.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> From CSS.
> 
> Creative Sound - Product Details


Why that didn't come up in google I'll never know. I was on the HiFi website or something and they were like $240 a pair!


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

The frugelhorn design will have to be tweaked for different drivers. It won't be a direct replacement. The full plans show options for increasing the size of the compression chamber. If experimenting with different drivers you should start with more airspace and then fill it in until things sound right.

I've been moving my horns around the house the past few weeks. They really like small rooms for the best imaging and they are very picky about placement. Put them in the corners and 50-200Hz comes alive. Put them in the wrong place and they'll sound dull and lifeless in comparison. The sweet spot for imaging is very narrow so I end up fiddling quite a bit with tow-in before settling down to enjoy some tunes.

I think for my next project i'm going to build a simple Bass-Reflex monitor-sized set for my desk. I want something small that I can put at ear level. i'll use a 4" driver again (possibly the same one).


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

^So it sounds like I would want to use some threaded inserts to secure the drivers to their cutouts since it's likely they would be taken out and put back in multiple times.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

ItalynStylion said:


> I'll admit that I'm very intrigued by the idea and I'd like to do the same. But, how do you think changing out the drivers for different stuff would affect the design requirements? Would you still build roughly the same thing? I'd think there is a LOT of planning that goes into an enclosure like that. Do you think the L4 would cover that much of a frequency spectrum?
> 
> Sounds fun!


Oh yeah, the L4 could easily cover that much bandwidth. I listened to some L4's running full range in Quality_Sound's VW with no other speakers hooked up and I was impressed to say the least. While I didn't like the L3's AT ALL, I do like the L4's. But those Ti Tang Band's look really promising too and I love metal cone drivers.




Autiophile said:


> The Frugal Horn site really has the best information, along with some DIYaudio threads. There have been a number of drivers used, primarily the Fostex range, but there's a design on the site using the CSS FR125 ($70 a piece), as well as a few other drivers.
> 
> Hard to know the L4's suitability. I'd not use them simply because there are proven options available for less money.


I actually forgot about the FR125, that would be a brilliant idea! And the price is nice to boot!

Yes, the L4's are expensive. But I have faith that I could get them WELL underneath typical asking price. It would just take a bit of searching and a few phone calls.




ItalynStylion said:


> ^So it sounds like I would want to use some threaded inserts to secure the drivers to their cutouts since it's likely they would be taken out and put back in multiple times.


Threaded inserts FTW! I always end up tweaking things so I am a firm believer in threaded inserts.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

You can also hold off on gluing the last side until you have done some preliminary tuning. Using clamps you will get a good sense of how it will sound.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

chuyler1 said:


> You can also hold off on gluing the last side until you have done some preliminary tuning. Using clamps you will get a good sense of how it will sound.


Good call! I didn't even think about that. I have decided that I want to leave the center void of the horn open from the sides though to give the speakers a "cool" look.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

chuyler1 said:


> The frugelhorn design will have to be tweaked for different drivers. It won't be a direct replacement. The full plans show options for increasing the size of the compression chamber. If experimenting with different drivers you should start with more airspace and then fill it in until things sound right.
> 
> I've been moving my horns around the house the past few weeks. They really like small rooms for the best imaging and they are very picky about placement. Put them in the corners and 50-200Hz comes alive. Put them in the wrong place and they'll sound dull and lifeless in comparison. The sweet spot for imaging is very narrow so I end up fiddling quite a bit with tow-in before settling down to enjoy some tunes.
> 
> I think for my next project i'm going to build a simple Bass-Reflex monitor-sized set for my desk. I want something small that I can put at ear level. i'll use a 4" driver again (possibly the same one).



Have you found a plan for moniter sized version? I wouldnt mind running a smaller set as rears for a HT, maybe even full size for fronts. Especially if I could get away with the same driver.


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## flomofo (Apr 30, 2008)

I've been reading up on some diy home audio the last few weeks, just wish had some wood working skills, or even wood working tools.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

flomofo said:


> I've been reading up on some diy home audio the last few weeks, just wish had some wood working skills, or even wood working tools.


I'll make you a deal. If you buy me a set of those CSS FR125's that Autiophile posted I'll build you cabinets like these and ship them to you. You gotta paint them though; I suck at painting.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

ItalynStylion said:


> I'll make you a deal. If you buy me a set of those CSS FR125's that Autiophile posted I'll build you cabinets like these and ship them to you. You gotta paint them though; I suck at painting.


Hell, that's not a bad deal!! Can we pick what type of wood you use to make the cabinets out of Steven?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Boostedrex said:


> Hell, that's not a bad deal!! Can we pick what type of wood you use to make the cabinets out of Steven?


If I can find it and it's not 100 year old red wood or something that would work for me. I've been itching to build something lately since I just graduated and I don't have a job yet.


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## flomofo (Apr 30, 2008)

I have some redwood near me that old. I would probably get arrested and/or squashed like a bug "retrieving" it.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

ItalynStylion said:


> I've been itching to build something lately


Man, I hear you. I’ve been itching to do a little DIY setup myself. When I get the house built I’ll start building random towers and selling them off at cost + shipping just to give me something to do and learn from.


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## flomofo (Apr 30, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Man, I hear you. I’ve been itching to do a little DIY setup myself. When I get the house built I’ll start building random towers and selling them off at cost + shipping just to give me something to do and learn from.


I'm just reading up as I'm a little ways still from my own house (just graduated too) so I can have room to start buying the neccessary tools and start learning. 

I'll let you know, because that is a really good offer. This was mostly for my girl friends dad who wants to replace his flea market setup that sounds pretty decent.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Oh, lol… I’m not offering anything yet. I’ve got until May until I’m in my new house (with a garage). But, I do have a few ideas for towers/bookshelves I’d like to try. 

See, I say I’d start building them and selling them for no other reason than to learn and keep myself busy, but not at a $100-200 loss everytime. If I could sell them for what I have in them, then that’s fine. I just like doing stuff to keep me busy. That explains why I’ve had so many changes in my car this year.


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## flomofo (Apr 30, 2008)

Ya thats why I was talking about stalyn's offer . 

I'd probably be finding people to buy your towers too, until I found one I wanted for myself...


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Once I finally stop being lazy, I'll buy a proper jig saw so I can make these myself. That and a table saw are the only 2 things I still need in order to make "pretty" things out of wood. #1 reason I make everything out of fiberglass right now. LOL!!


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

The experts over at DIY claim that baltic birch ply is "as good as it gets" with fullrange cabinets. Of course you can vineer them with more exotic stuff afterward.

As for making monitors...for a basic design, Fostex provides some recommended boxes for the fe126e and fe127e...
https://www.madisound.com/pdf/fostexcabs/fe126e_encl.pdf
https://www.madisound.com/pdf/fostexcabs/127e_revencl.pdf

The DIY crowd has also had good luck with the Fonken (FE127e).
Meet the Fonkens


And this one is pretty cute (uses the FE103)
Humble Homemade Hifi


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

flomofo said:


> Ya thats why I was talking about stalyn's offer


lol. Gotcha


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Boostedrex said:


> Once I finally stop being lazy, I'll buy a proper jig saw so I can make these myself. That and a table saw are the only 2 things I still need in order to make "pretty" things out of wood. #1 reason I make everything out of fiberglass right now. LOL!!


Won't need a jig saw. 
a table saw to do the ripping (or have home depot do it)
a mitre saw to cut the pieces to length and angle
a router to cut out the hole.
lots of clamps to glue it together
various sanding and finishing tools
search for "cabinet scraper" ...I didn't use one but I will on my next project.


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## flomofo (Apr 30, 2008)

Hey boosted let me know when you do this too, I'll be more than happy to come over even if its just to be a himan clamp lol.

Maybe if punk stops being lazy too, he can start pumping out towers. He could even setup a little diaplay in his garage and take pictures of them next to each other like he's in a showroom.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

chuyler1 said:


> Won't need a jig saw.
> a table saw to do the ripping (or have home depot do it)
> a mitre saw to cut the pieces to length and angle
> a router to cut out the hole.
> ...


I honestly had no plans/desire to buy a mitre saw. But I will shell out some extra coin to get a decent table saw with an *accurate* angle cutting setup. That should kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Or I could just use a 45 degree champfer bit on my table route and accomplish the same thing. I love my routers!!


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I gotta get a table saw. I'm mad accurate with my DeWalt circular saw but it takes a lot of concentration to get things perfect and it wears me out.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

Boostedrex said:


> I honestly had no plans/desire to buy a mitre saw. But I will shell out some extra coin to get a decent table saw with an *accurate* angle cutting setup. That should kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Or I could just use a 45 degree champfer bit on my table route and accomplish the same thing. I love my routers!!



A good 12" cut sliding mitre saw like this
will take care of alot of stuff around a house, from quick fixes, to making sure your new cedar fence posts are all the same height, to DIY bookshelves, etc. They are quite handy My dad just finished building a house, and is about to start another, and he by far uses that saw more than any other.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

chuyler1 said:


> The experts over at DIY claim that baltic birch ply is "as good as it gets" with fullrange cabinets. Of course you can vineer them with more exotic stuff afterward.
> 
> As for making monitors...for a basic design, Fostex provides some recommended boxes for the fe126e and fe127e...
> https://www.madisound.com/pdf/fostexcabs/fe126e_encl.pdf
> ...


Thanks for the links !


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

el_chupo_ said:


> A good 12" cut sliding mitre saw like this
> will take care of alot of stuff around a house, from quick fixes, to making sure your new cedar fence posts are all the same height, to DIY bookshelves, etc. They are quite handy My dad just finished building a house, and is about to start another, and he by far uses that saw more than any other.


Yeah, with speakers that are less than 12" wide, you can make more precise cuts. Even a simple 90 degree cut will come out better, and it's much easier than having to slide a long board across your table.


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