# is audiocontrol equipment outdated???????



## Fitzo (Dec 22, 2009)

Honestly, I can find anyone locally that wants to adjust my electronics, is audiocontrol car audio outdated??? How come no one wants or uses Audiocontrol anymore, everywhere I go, they suggest to get rid of them and install imprint or any other kind of new electronic; I understand as an installer that you want to work with new equipment but what is wrong with Audiocontrol?

Any idea ?


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

Nothing but I had heard of noise problems with some units. That doesnt mean they are outdated unless you are trying to do OEM integration or auto-tuning. The local dealers you are going to either dont know what audiocontrol is or how to use it or just want to sell you something new. I know there are highly respected members and installers in the Floria area though.


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## Fitzo (Dec 22, 2009)

azngotskills said:


> Nothing but I had heard of noise problems with some units. That doesnt mean they are outdated unless you are trying to do OEM integration or auto-tuning. The local dealers you are going to either dont know what audiocontrol is or how to use it or just want to sell you something new. I know there are highly respected members and installers in the Floria area though.


I was searching for any reputable Audiocontrol dealer or retailer, but unfortunately, they told me that the EQ's have to be calibrated with some equipment that they dont have and by the way," why dont you think about this new equipment that just came out" 
Same BS and no help.
I use audiocontrol back on the 80's and never had a problem, I am either old or people don't really know what this equipment do.


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## lucas569 (Apr 17, 2007)

they probably dont have an RTA


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## nick561 (Jun 25, 2009)

im a audiocontrol dealer and id be happy to help you if you would like 

pm me


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Fitzo said:


> I was searching for any reputable Audiocontrol dealer or retailer, but unfortunately, they told me that the EQ's have to be calibrated with some equipment that they dont have and by the way," why dont you think about this new equipment that just came out"


A shop that is run by people too backwards to own and understand how to use simple audio measurement equipment is a shop that people should avoid patronizing whenever possible.


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## audio MD (Jan 17, 2010)

DS-21 said:


> A shop that is run by people too backwards to own and understand how to use simple audio measurement equipment is a shop that people should avoid patronizing whenever possible.


With higher end eq's that have a let's say 30 bands per channel, unless the shop has an RTA they really can't tune it properly. A good ear can and experience might get close, but the rta will show you where the dips and peaks are so that they can be flattened out. Just call around and ask if the shop has an RTA and a person that knows how to use it and you'll be good to go.


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

DS-21 said:


> A shop that is run by people too backwards to own and understand how to use simple audio measurement equipment is a shop that people should avoid patronizing whenever possible.


I really miss you and all the people posting interesting things or !#@$#%....
WHAT IS HAPPENING TO CAR AUDIO?

PD:Thanks to Patrick B. Andy W. Lycan. and the new "small crowd" kepping the thing rolling.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> A shop that is run by people too backwards to own and understand how to use simple audio measurement equipment is a shop that people should avoid patronizing whenever possible.


Meh. There are so few people who actually need stuff like that, it's not worth keeping around and wasting money and space on. Kinda the same reason that most of the manufacturers quit importing (or making) high end product for the US market...

Jay


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## scclimber (Apr 19, 2009)

why buy good when you can buy cheap???
walmart: the american way


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## justinmreina (Nov 3, 2009)

I like how the keyword Walmart showed up in an AudioControl thread.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

JayinMI said:


> Meh. There are so few people who actually need stuff like that, it's not worth keeping around and wasting money and space on. Kinda the same reason that most of the manufacturers quit importing (or making) high end product for the US market...


Are you kidding? I presume a shop has a computer or two. How much space is wasted by, say, a decent mic preamp, a Dayton calibrated measurement mic, and appropriate software? If a shop can't afford 200 bucks on measurement gear and software, then they may as well just close.

If a shop can't add value, and they can't add value if they can't measure anything, then they have no reason to exist. They're no different from a warehouse selling over the internet and a moderately mechanically-inclined high schooler. Only they're a lot more expensive.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

JayinMI said:


> Meh. There are so few people who actually need stuff like that, it's not worth keeping around and wasting money and space on. Kinda the same reason that most of the manufacturers quit importing (or making) high end product for the US market...
> 
> Jay


An RTA hardly takes up any space at all. Hell, with some the only space you're losing is what the laptop takes up. They're relatively cheap nowadays as well. 

Really, if you're trying to call your shop "high end" or "custom" then there is absolutely no reason NOT to have at least an RTA in your shop. Period. 

You'd be surprised how much more return business and how manny referrals you get when you give a car back to a customer and it sounds WELL beyond his expectations rather than just tossing his new gear in and calling it a day. 

The car audio market didn't fall down by itself. Lazy ass installers, salesmen, and owners LET it fall down.


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## Fitzo (Dec 22, 2009)

quality_sound said:


> An RTA hardly takes up any space at all. Hell, with some the only space you're losing is what the laptop takes up. They're relatively cheap nowadays as well.
> 
> Really, if you're trying to call your shop "high end" or "custom" then there is absolutely no reason NOT to have at least an RTA in your shop. Period.
> 
> ...




I totally agree!....... I might be old school, but I was very serious about my sound. I could honestly say that back in the day I wouldn't mind spending thousands if I was getting quality electronics and most of all "quality of service"
Back in the day, I could go back to the tech at any time to do adjustments or just to talk sound or upgrades with them, now days, they sell you a system and they don't know you anymore.


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## nick561 (Jun 25, 2009)

quality_sound said:


> An RTA hardly takes up any space at all. Hell, with some the only space you're losing is what the laptop takes up. They're relatively cheap nowadays as well.
> 
> Really, if you're trying to call your shop "high end" or "custom" then there is absolutely no reason NOT to have at least an RTA in your shop. Period.
> 
> ...


i would like to replie not to argue but to give you a different perspective. i manage a shop, i have a rta and use it very rarely but not because i don't want to. it is because almost every cust. wants my services and the product i sell for next to nothing. go on sonic electronics and look at Rockford. A line i sell that is being sold to the consumer for 2% more then i pay for it. now honestly tell me im supposed to rta a vehicle that a customer already thinks im a bad person for my prices being to high. So went and bought it off the internet. Then beats me up on my labor rate. saying his friend could do it for a 1/4 of the price in his back yard. then tell me how im supposed to pay for the 8 bays i have and 6 installers. Plus teach them how to use a rta and tune a car and then give them the time to tune each car.. Id be out of work in a week. Now dont take this as me saying i dont want to do it but the bills have to be payed . i got a kid at home that has to eat and i cant do that by giving away labor after the cust buys all his own stuff off the internet.

so please dont tell me im the fault the industry is where it is. i feel the internet has a big role in it along with the mentality that cheaper is always better. back in the day a cust didn't mind paying for the installer to do the job to the best of his ability

and ps im far from lazy


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

nick561 said:


> i would like to replie not to argue but to give you a different perspective. i manage a shop, i have a rta and use it very rarely but not because i don't want to. it is because almost every cust. wants my services and the product i sell for next to nothing. go on sonic electronics and look at Rockford. A line i sell that is being sold to the consumer for 2% more then i pay for it. now honestly tell me im supposed to rta a vehicle that a customer already thinks im a bad person for my prices being to high. So went and bought it off the internet. Then beats me up on my labor rate. saying his friend could do it for a 1/4 of the price in his back yard. then tell me how im supposed to pay for the 8 bays i have and 6 installers. Plus teach them how to use a rta and tune a car and then give them the time to tune each car.. Id be out of work in a week. Now dont take this as me saying i dont want to do it but the bills have to be payed . i got a kid at home that has to eat and i cant do that by giving away labor after the cust buys all his own stuff off the internet.
> 
> so please dont tell me im the fault the industry is where it is. i feel the internet has a big role in it along with the mentality that cheaper is always better. back in the day a cust didn't mind paying for the installer to do the job to the best of his ability
> 
> and ps im far from lazy


No one can say you have an easy time of it!

I think the point is that nobody OWES you anything. You, and other shops, don't deserve people's hard-earned money just because you've got a family to feed. You need to offer something that an internet site can't. That's 1) your expertise; 2) your services (for those who can't or won't do it themselves); People will eat the higher prices of the equipment if you can do those two things well. If you can't do those things, then why on earth should anybody pay more money for the very same equipment, you know?

I agree though that you should be able to do these things without the aid of RTA ... if you're good. The problem is that waaay too many shops (probably most of them...) are run by people who don't know what they're doing. Those shops need to close their doors, IMO.


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## nick561 (Jun 25, 2009)

i never said anybody owed me a single thing. what i was saying is im in business to make money as odd as that may seem to some people. does that mean i don't love what i do? NO. Im happy every morning i wake up and get to do it but at the end of the day i have to make money to keep the doors open to help people and to live my dream job. im not arguing with you just trying to get my point across.

and ps . i told fitzo i would be happy to tune his equip and he is coming by my shop today. maybe he will be able to tell people on the board that just cause we have a shop doesn't make us all bad people


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

That's cool. Just remember that the consumer is in it to SAVE money. When a consumer saves money, it means he can spend more of it on other things that he likes. Shops really do have to go above and beyond just to make it worth spending the extra money on the same product.

btw, you're a diyma member, so I doubt you're a bad people! But you've definitely got an uphill battle because so many of your fellow shop owners are just plain clueless. Unfortunately, there are going to be a lot of people who drive right past your shop thinking that you're just another one of them. I don't envy your position. The car audio biz is a tough gig.


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## nick561 (Jun 25, 2009)

well luckily we have grow a name for ourselves trough the years. and it gets us lots of great customers. any ways i just wanted a opinion on this tread other the all shops are horrible money grabbers that don't know jack. some of us are alright


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## audio MD (Jan 17, 2010)

nick561 said:


> i would like to replie not to argue but to give you a different perspective. i manage a shop, i have a rta and use it very rarely but not because i don't want to. it is because almost every cust. wants my services and the product i sell for next to nothing. go on sonic electronics and look at Rockford. A line i sell that is being sold to the consumer for 2% more then i pay for it. now honestly tell me im supposed to rta a vehicle that a customer already thinks im a bad person for my prices being to high. So went and bought it off the internet. Then beats me up on my labor rate. saying his friend could do it for a 1/4 of the price in his back yard. then tell me how im supposed to pay for the 8 bays i have and 6 installers. Plus teach them how to use a rta and tune a car and then give them the time to tune each car.. Id be out of work in a week. Now dont take this as me saying i dont want to do it but the bills have to be payed . i got a kid at home that has to eat and i cant do that by giving away labor after the cust buys all his own stuff off the internet.
> 
> so please dont tell me im the fault the industry is where it is. i feel the internet has a big role in it along with the mentality that cheaper is always better. back in the day a cust didn't mind paying for the installer to do the job to the best of his ability
> 
> and ps im far from lazy



It's true that there are a lot of folks that don't want to or think that what it cost to RTA a vehicle is not justifiable. For those people all you can do is say "I'm sorry sir but doing that takes time and I do have to charge for it" on the other hand if you call yourself high and then not have the capability to adjust multiple band EQ is kinda silly. You have it for you higher end builds which should get RTA'd after it's done and for the people that knows it's worth.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

nick561 said:


> i would like to replie not to argue but to give you a different perspective. i manage a shop, i have a rta and use it very rarely but not because i don't want to. it is because almost every cust. wants my services and the product i sell for next to nothing. go on sonic electronics and look at Rockford. A line i sell that is being sold to the consumer for 2% more then i pay for it. now honestly tell me im supposed to rta a vehicle that a customer already thinks im a bad person for my prices being to high. So went and bought it off the internet. Then beats me up on my labor rate. saying his friend could do it for a 1/4 of the price in his back yard. then tell me how im supposed to pay for the 8 bays i have and 6 installers. Plus teach them how to use a rta and tune a car and then give them the time to tune each car.. Id be out of work in a week. Now dont take this as me saying i dont want to do it but the bills have to be payed . i got a kid at home that has to eat and i cant do that by giving away labor after the cust buys all his own stuff off the internet.
> 
> so please dont tell me im the fault the industry is where it is. i feel the internet has a big role in it along with the mentality that cheaper is always better. back in the day a cust didn't mind paying for the installer to do the job to the best of his ability
> 
> and ps im far from lazy


I managed a shop too. I speak from experience and my statements stand. 

EVERY customer wants it done cheaper. You have to show them why they should be coming to you. It's the intangibles. I tuned every car I did. Not all of my salesmen did. It got the point where I didn't really ever deal with walk-ins anymore because of the return customers and referrals. How long does it take to fire up the RTA and make some adjustments? On most cars, an hour tops since they didn't have much processing so everything was gain, phase, and level adjustments. So yes, I DO expect you to take that time. THAT is EXACTLY what online stores can't offer. If YOU don't provide that service then what are you offering that the online dealers aren't? 

Don't take it as YOU are the reason, it's WE as a whole. Customers, dealers, manufacturers, ALL of us.


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## nick561 (Jun 25, 2009)

how can i spend a hour tuning when a cust doesn't want to pay a hour labor of the install and tune?


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

nick561 said:


> i would like to replie not to argue but to give you a different perspective. i manage a shop, i have a rta and use it very rarely but not because i don't want to. it is because almost every cust. wants my services and the product i sell for next to nothing. go on sonic electronics and look at Rockford.


Customers don't really want the cheapest price, they want the _best value._ If you want to charge more than an internet site, you better add value. A well-tuned system that sounds great and measures as well as it can is inherently more valuable than a collection of boxes, and it's the shop's job to convince customers that the value added is equal to or greater than the additional cost.



nick561 said:


> so please dont tell me im the fault the industry is where it is. i feel the internet has a big role in it along with the mentality that cheaper is always better.


Audio shops that are woefully behind the times is a far bigger reason than the liberating factors of free trade.


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## nick561 (Jun 25, 2009)

i wont be draged into a argument. you guys are right . you win


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

nick561 said:


> how can i spend a hour tuning when a cust doesn't want to pay a hour labor of the install and tune?


You have other salesman working for you, right? How much money is being taken off the table if you do the tuning and your salesmen are still on the floor selling? 

Yes, it's gonna suck that you're not being paid for the tuning, at first. Your salesmen are going to ***** and moan if you make them stay late for training or making them get their MECP certs but in the long run it WILL pay off and you WILL make more money. 

If you want to leave the money you're in business to make on the table while blaming it all on the customer don't expect to get any sympathy from most of us. 

You're obviously in this because you like the hobby since you're here and not on CA.com but we are too and a lot of us have done or are doing retail and can be of help, if you're willing to hear it.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

I've always thought that people were in business because they had a service/product to offer.

Money is a side effect. Those other shops are in it for money and they're terrible at what they do majority of the time.




nick561 said:


> i never said anybody owed me a single thing. what i was saying is *im in business to make money *as odd as that may seem to some people. does that mean i don't love what i do? NO. Im happy every morning i wake up and get to do it but at the end of the day i have to make money to keep the doors open to help people and to live my dream job. im not arguing with you just trying to get my point across.
> 
> and ps . i told fitzo i would be happy to tune his equip and he is coming by my shop today. maybe he will be able to tell people on the board that just cause we have a shop doesn't make us all bad people


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## nick561 (Jun 25, 2009)

like i said im not going to argue


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

You're good people. That's what matters.


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## nick561 (Jun 25, 2009)

thank u


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## audio MD (Jan 17, 2010)

Fitzo's looking at this saying WTffff... lol!


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## nick561 (Jun 25, 2009)

probably lol!!!


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## kamguy (Nov 15, 2009)

I don't thnk it's outdated any more than any other well built (i hate this term, but here it goes) old school product. Killer xovers and anyone who's had a 4.1 @ his finger tips can hardly function without it. Might be dated but they make the xovers in amps seem like an after thought. They are amps not xovers. Pick up a 6XS and learn to make your own custom moduls, this is DIY Mobile after all! Those high ons @ AC are all right by me.
Peace


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## rommelrommel (Apr 11, 2007)

I800C0LLECT said:


> I've always thought that people were in business because they had a service/product to offer.
> 
> Money is a side effect. Those other shops are in it for money and they're terrible at what they do majority of the time.


So now businesses are charities?

Money isn't everything but it's pretty hard to stay in business if you don't pay attention to it lol.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

People will always pay for quality...but you might not walk away rich 

That's why I had purchased Audiocontrol


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

kamguy said:


> I don't thnk it's outdated any more than any other well built (i hate this term, but here it goes) old school product.


I don't think it's really old school. Their new stuff is digital and works through a GUI and so on. Yes, the EQTs and so on...definitely old school. 



kamguy said:


> Killer xovers and anyone who's had a 4.1 @ his finger tips can hardly function without it. Might be dated but they make the xovers in amps seem like an after thought.


??? My Four.1 didn't have a crossover in it. It had a (limited capability) EQ, a very nice line driver, and (the only reason I had it in my system at the time, as my Denon DCT-950R didn't have an iPod jack) an aux-in port. It was a nice piece of gear, though I'm a set-and-forget kind of guy when it comes to EQ's so the only knob on it that saw use was the volume knob.

As for their crossovers, yes, they're good. But that kind of transparency in electronics is a commodity now. I promise you there's no difference between, say, a 24XS and the crossover built into a JL Slash-series amp. Well, except for the Jello one has a power amp attached, is much more flexible (no need to solder up resistor chips, or have mulitples on hand to experiment with different frequencies, can stagger highpass and lowpass frequencies), and unlike every piece of AudioControl gear I've used except for the Four.1 the Jello amp doesn't have a turn-on pop.

Don't construe any of the above as "bashing," mind. I like AudioControl. I've owned a fair bit of AudioControl home and car gear over time: a couple 24XS's, an Epicenter, a Four.1, a Phase Coupled Activator Series-3 (24XS+Epicenter in a home audio component), and a Richter Scale Series-3 (1/6 octave subwoofer EQ). And except for the annoying turn-on pops it has all served me well. If they had something like the Alpine PXE-H650 or the forthcoming JBL MS8, I would probably use it rather than the 'H650. If you want an EQ for independent fine tuning, their digital box (DQX?) is a very good choice.


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## kamguy (Nov 15, 2009)

DS-21 said:


> I don't think it's really old school. Their new stuff is digital and works through a GUI and so on. Yes, the EQTs and so on...definitely old school.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is why i have so few posts. You think i'm such a dumbass i didn't know my 4.1 wasn't a xover? How would one take those comments as anything but bashing? Started installing for friends @ 13 in 1979 and some retard thinks my opinion is worthless and should be degraded. This is why many old timers aren't on this forum as much anymore. If you think a built in xover on your JL is as high quality a 6XS, good for you.
BK


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## kamguy (Nov 15, 2009)

Also u missed my point about "old school". I think it sounds ignorant to use this term for everything a couple of years old or older. I realize the AC stuff is "old school", so? Don't forget to throw out those old MC and Carver tube amps. When was the last mega buck home system with a reciever as apposed to a seperate preamp/amp. All in one is a compromise most evey time. Does it work ok? Sure it does. But if we can't tell any difference why do we even bother with good amps when cheap ones sound as good? Maybe you should read a post before you type! Was trying to have fun and make the point old is ok alot of the time. Reading this crap is getting old, and that's not ok. Why did I bother?


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## 2fnloud (Sep 30, 2007)

I guess that means I will need to sell my:

24XS, DXS, DQS, 6XS, and Bass C.U.B.E. for that matter!

Did I tell you about an E-bay link....

Seriously now I always have and always will prefer AC over built in signal processors.

I have a system I am in the planning stages of (again) because I switch vehicles but I will be using everything but the 6XS (list to come once I get some more posts on here, properly.)

My plan to get a basic tune will be to run the auto tune that my pioneer DEQ-P8000 has then not the changes and change the EQ settings on the DQS.

I figure that eventualy(sp) there will not be anything to auto EQ. 

OK I realize that would be a huge no a HUGE PIA. I just haven't researched out my option for laptop based RTA meters yet because an AC RTA just isn't in the budet.


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## monkeyboy (Jun 12, 2007)

The designs are a few years old on most of their products, but I have always had good experiences with them. The biggest reason that there isn't an Audio Control product in my truck anymore is that I wanted time alignment, and when I was buying, they didn't offer it.


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## kamguy (Nov 15, 2009)

Hey 2loud, I'll take that junk off your hands.


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## 2fnloud (Sep 30, 2007)

Where in Michigan are you from? Ithaca here, I am serious about selling the 6XS once I my post count at the proper level.


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## kamguy (Nov 15, 2009)

jackson area. PM me if u like.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

kamguy said:


> This is why i have so few posts. You think i'm such a dumbass i didn't know my 4.1 wasn't a xover?


Indeed, looking back I (slightly) misread your post. My bad. Had your writing been more clear, I would not have made that mistake. There's nothing wrong with punctuation to separate clauses in a sentence...



kamguy said:


> How would one take those comments as anything but bashing?


Because it's not bashing if it's true.



kamguy said:


> This is why many old timers aren't on this forum as much anymore.


Yeah, Mr. Joined-in-Nov-2009 would know _so_ much more about this place than someone who's been here more-or-less since its inception... 

Seriously, stop being a whiny little *****.



kamguy said:


> When was the last mega buck home system with a reciever as apposed to a seperate preamp/amp.


Well, my main home system has about 25,000USD in speakers/subwoofers (Tannoy System 12 DMT II for L/C/R, Tannoy System 800 surround, M-Design Eleganza Godfather main sub with an underhung Aura NS15-994-4A, two M-Design Eleganza Bella secondary subs with Aura NS12-794-4A's, Morel SoundSub9 high-mounted sub) and is driven by a receiver (Denon AVR-4308ci/A). Unfortunately, there wasn't a cheaper receiver with wireless internet and Audyssey MultEQ XT/Dynamic EQ. Otherwise I would've bought it instead.

Dr. Earl Geddes runs his possibly best-in-the-world Summa speakers off of a $200 Pioneer receiver.

I would not downgrade to a megabuck preamp and megabuck amps, because I would suffer degraded performance compared to modern gear.



kamguy said:


> But if we can't tell any difference why do we even bother with good amps when cheap ones sound as good?


Indeed, since that is the case there is no sonic reason to overspend on "good amps." However, sometimes they look better, etc., so I suppose that is a reason. But if one thinks that amps can be chosen based on "sound quality," s/he is probably deaf.


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## Fitzo (Dec 22, 2009)

Wow!........ and know that I started all this!


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

kamguy said:


> This is why i have so few posts. You think i'm such a dumbass i didn't know my 4.1 wasn't a xover? How would one take those comments as anything but bashing? Started installing for friends @ 13 in 1979 and some retard thinks my opinion is worthless and should be degraded. This is why many old timers aren't on this forum as much anymore. If you think a built in xover on your JL is as high quality a 6XS, good for you.
> BK


You think the "old timers" would disagree with him?

Do you know how to build a crossover? You realize it's basically a single active element in it, right? We're talking incredibly SIMPLE circuits here. To the best of my recollection, a lot of the audiocontrol filters were state variable designs, which is a slightly more complicated version, but that complication only really benefits you in the flexibility and tolerance department. Essque remains unaffected.

I actually prefer amp crossovers to external crossovers -- noise issues are almost non-existent because the circuits (presumably) share the same grounds. Sometimes they're even part of the buffer, so you kill two birds with one stone.

I suggest "The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill, as they have a fairly decent section discussing the difference between state variable and sallen-key filters. And if you're REALLY interested in the topic, I've got an active filter book currently for sale on amazon. You'll learn a lot.


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## kamguy (Nov 15, 2009)

DS-21 said:


> Indeed, looking back I (slightly) misread your post. My bad. Had your writing been more clear, I would not have made that mistake. There's nothing wrong with punctuation to separate clauses in a sentence...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


DS-41,
How is it that you can't be into car audio until one joins this site? This is a hobby for 90% of us on here. If you spoke to the ******** I grew up around with the same tone you started your reply with...... I'm sure you can see where I'm going. You obviously know more than I. How can I compete with the guy who's been the member of an online forum for as long as you have? You made it easier to stay off these forums and get some things done. So sad.
Peace,
BK


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## audio MD (Jan 17, 2010)

kamguy said:


> Hey 2loud, I'll take that junk off your hands.


I was just thinking the same thing! If anyone has an OBSOLETE DQXS I'll take it!! Hell or even a 6XS to go with my DQS. The key to this whole thing is the fact that external components offers you versatility. If you think AC makes products that induce noise, use a different manufacturer. AC isn't the only company that makes processors. Heck that ARC DXE is a bad ass piece of equipment!


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

kamguy said:


> DS-41,


I see you read as well as you write...



kamguy said:


> How is it that you can't be into car audio until one joins this site?


When one writes "many old timers aren't on this forum as much anymore" without, you know, actually specifying what one means by "old timer," the phrase is subject to interpretation. I chose to interpret it based on the only concrete term in your sentence, "this forum," because that made the most sense to me. And considering your tenure on this forum is about half a year, what the hell do you know about the its trends over time?

Seriously, go to a community college and take a basic composition course. Your writing is as clear as asphalt. If you wish to convince someone of a point, first you have to clearly articulate that point.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

JayinMI said:


> Meh. There are so few people who actually need stuff like that, it's not worth keeping around and wasting money and space on. Kinda the same reason that most of the manufacturers quit importing (or making) high end product for the US market...
> 
> Jay


Jay is right.

You DIYMA members have to understand the real world and what car audio has become. Most average customers do not come in and spend a few hundred dollars on a Audiocontrol product or even a 3.sixty or Imprint or cleansweep. They don't understand the value these products add and even if explained to them, most don't buy it anyways. Its a different time and people are spending way less than ever before on car audio, and Jay is right in that the owners/workers are there to make money, and this is not just a hobby for them. 

The people that understand what an audiocontrol epicenter does or an Imprint are people like you, *DIY'ers*! Shops do not make money on people that buy online and work on the installs themselves, so they really don't care if what you think.

Sure theres that one guy every once in a while that comes in and wants his system tuned and it requires an RTA, but is it business smart to invest time, money, labor into a 'once in a while' customer? Most would say no.

For the past couple of years, even customers with new BMW's, MB's, Lexus's want to spend little on products and labor. It's a different day and age, with car audio going down by the year.

Btw, I'm speaking from experience of family owning multiple shops over the past 20 years.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

I'm curious... How is that any different from what it was, say, 15 years ago?


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> I'm curious... How is that any different from what it was, say, 15 years ago?


It is different, though.

I say it's different because the costs of doing it right are so much lower now than they were in 1995. In 1995, there was already some decent free modeling enclosure software available - I remember getting a friend to download Blau-Box for me over AOL; I didn't have internet at the time - but measurement gear was pricey. Today, however, inexpensive calibrated measurement mics are widely available to anyone with a working internet connection or even a functioning phone line, and the software is cheap or even free sometimes. There's no need for four-figures or more worth of gear. Just maybe 200 bucks on top of the computer one already has. 

Hell, there's even an iPhone app that's good enough for many uses...wish they'd come out with a webOS version.

So shop owners who are still stuck in a 1980s mentality have even less of an excuse now than they ever had. They should lose all of their business to internet warehouses, because they don't add anymore value than the internet venders do, but they charge a lot more. The key phrase for staying in business is "add value." A business that cannot do that does not deserve to exist in a capitalist economy.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> I'm curious... How is that any different from what it was, say, 15 years ago?


It's very different. 15 years ago, the economy was in a much different place than it is today. Times were good and everyone was making alot of money. Car audio was booming, stores were doing very well, and there was very little internet sales.

Forward to today- A million websites selling products at literally right above cost..bad economy..cars have gotten extremely harder to work on (has anyone seen the interior of a 2010 Acura..) Most cars now need extra modules to retain factory options (BOSE, OnStar, Steering wheel controls, etc..) All of which adds cost to parts and labor..and on top of that people are just spending less in general.

So im sorry Mr. Car Audio hobbyist that does this for fun and has a secure job, that not all shops can spend hours of their time tuning systems for free and not every shop has an RTA machine. We, just like many other industrys, are struggling to stay afloat.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> and there was very little internet.


Fixed.

15 years ago the internet was in it's infancy. Hell, it wasn't even what I would call the internet yet. Just a bunch of usenets and bulletin boards. Nothing like what we call the internet today. 

Car audio companies and retrailers have, for the most part, failed to adapt and that's what's hurting them. Add in the average age of the typical shop owner 15 years ago and you can see another reason why they haven't adapted. They're stuck in their ways.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> So im sorry Mr. Car Audio hobbyist that does this for fun and has a secure job, that not all shops can spend hours of their time tuning systems for free and not every shop has an RTA machine. We, just like many other industrys, are struggling to stay afloat.


Wait a minute: who's saying anything about doing anything for free? Shops can and should charge in two ways. First, by selling gear above the prevailing market price (largely set by internet venders, like it or not), and second, by charging for labor.

But any shop without even rudimentary measurement equipment adds no more value to the consumer than an webstore would, because yes they can put **** in but they have no more chance of getting it to sound right than anyone else. So why should anyone spend above market prices at such an establishment?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> It's very different. 15 years ago, the economy was in a much different place than it is today. Times were good and everyone was making alot of money. Car audio was booming, stores were doing very well, and there was very little internet sales.
> 
> Forward to today- A million websites selling products at literally right above cost..bad economy..cars have gotten extremely harder to work on (has anyone seen the interior of a 2010 Acura..) Most cars now need extra modules to retain factory options (BOSE, OnStar, Steering wheel controls, etc..) All of which adds cost to parts and labor..and on top of that people are just spending less in general.
> 
> So im sorry Mr. Car Audio hobbyist that does this for fun and has a secure job, that not all shops can spend hours of their time tuning systems for free and not every shop has an RTA machine. We, just like many other industrys, are struggling to stay afloat.


What I was addressing, specifically, was what you were saying about consumers. You said that customers don't want to spend much now. That implies that they were willing to spend a lot back then, right? Given where products have been moving, I just don't see how that's possible. Maybe it's a regional thing? Of course, there HAVE been a new group of cheap customers recruited by the fact that prices have come down. But I'm not convinced that the ones with fat pockets have been replaced by them. It just doesn't add up.


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## audio MD (Jan 17, 2010)

Wow this is getting ugly! I believe the OP asked if his AudioControl EQ was obsolete though. Fitzo no it's not and if you're ever in Tucson my shop has an RTA that can tune it for you buddy. LMAO...


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

quality_sound said:


> Fixed.
> 
> 15 years ago the internet was in it's infancy. Hell, it wasn't even what I would call the internet yet. Just a bunch of usenets and bulletin boards. Nothing like what we call the internet today.
> 
> Car audio companies and retrailers have, for the most part, failed to adapt and that's what's hurting them. Add in the average age of the typical shop owner 15 years ago and you can see another reason why they haven't adapted. They're stuck in their ways.


What do owners and manufactureres have to do to adapt?


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## 2fnloud (Sep 30, 2007)

Realize that with the internet, regional marketing no longer applies and that creates a more aggressive market. And MSRP is just a "suggested" price and that owners need to be more willing to dip into their profit margin to make a sale.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

DS-21 said:


> Wait a minute: who's saying anything about doing anything for free? Shops can and should charge in two ways. First, by selling gear above the prevailing market price (largely set by internet venders, like it or not), and second, by charging for labor.
> 
> But any shop without even rudimentary measurement equipment adds no more value to the consumer than an webstore would, because yes they can put **** in but they have no more chance of getting it to sound right than anyone else. So why should anyone spend above market prices at such an establishment?


But anytime a B&M store sells above internet price, customers will rant and complain that they paid too much. With the prices you can find on the internet, there would be no way an actual store would be able to stay afloat.
Yes we can charge for labor, but labor charges also have a market price. 

The average customer wants to spend as little as possible and most are settling for 'good enough'. New speakers and an amp is a big upgrade over their factory system and most don't care on spending more on processors or products that require measurement equipment.

:laugh:In the middle of typing this a customer walked in asking for the cheapest radio. I showed him a Kenwood for $129 and he felt that it was too much. Im sure he can go online and get it for 90 bucks shipped from some unauthorized dealer making $5 on the sale.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> But anytime a B&M store sells above internet price, customers will rant and complain that they paid too much. With the prices you can find on the internet, there would be no way an actual store would be able to stay afloat.
> Yes we can charge for labor, but labor charges also have a market price.


But they're not challenged by internet shops. The market for labor is based on other B&M shops.

I mean, none of these issues are exactly new. We heard the same thing 15 years ago when circuit city and best buy were spreading like wildfire. More competition generally means lower prices, and the current establishment (whomever that may be...) doesn't like that. The consumer does, though. 

I'm curious... How many car audio shops are there per city now compared to 15-20 years ago? Seems like there are a lot more now, at least around me. That could be a big part of the problem.



> The average customer wants to spend as little as possible and most are settling for 'good enough'. New speakers and an amp is a big upgrade over their factory system and most don't care on spending more on processors or products that require measurement equipment.
> 
> :laugh:In the middle of typing this a customer walked in asking for the cheapest radio. I showed him a Kenwood for $129 and he felt that it was too much. Im sure he can go online and get it for 90 bucks shipped from some unauthorized dealer making $5 on the sale.


If he's smart, he'll get one on ebay for even half that.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> What I was addressing, specifically, was what you were saying about consumers. You said that customers don't want to spend much now. That implies that they were willing to spend a lot back then, right? Given where products have been moving, I just don't see how that's possible. Maybe it's a regional thing? Of course, there HAVE been a new group of cheap customers recruited by the fact that prices have come down. But I'm not convinced that the ones with fat pockets have been replaced by them. It just doesn't add up.


Speaking from experience and conversations with my father whose been in the business for over 20 years, customers used to walk in and get the most basic radio and spend a few hundred dollars no problem. Bigger and more expensive systems were sold. You would rarely hear "whats the cheapest you got", and even the most entry level products had a good markup on them. For example, we have a JLw7 on display, and we have tons of people coming in everyday admiring it, but 9/10 will only be looking and actually want to spend $150 on a woofer.


I do feel that the industry has a part to do with the problem (wtf is Sony thinking when they released a headunit that RETAILED for $79.99!?) 

Now, this could all be a regional thing. I never worked outside of the area im in now, so it could be different depending on area. ymmv


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

2fnloud said:


> Realize that with the internet, regional marketing no longer applies and that creates a more aggressive market. And MSRP is just a "suggested" price and that owners need to be more willing to dip into their profit margin to make a sale.


I, as many shop owners I know, are willing to sell below MSRP. What were not willing to do is sell something at 2% over cost like what many internet vendors are doing.


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## 2fnloud (Sep 30, 2007)

Angrywhopper said:


> I, as many shop owners I know, are willing to sell below MSRP. What were not willing to do is sell something at 2% over cost like what many internet vendors are doing.


Yeah that wouldn't make sence, what do you charge /hour labor rate? Dealerships charge like 75 - 80 / hour on electrical work.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> But they're not challenged by internet shops. The market for labor is based on other B&M shops.
> 
> I mean, none of these issues are exactly new. We heard the same thing 15 years ago when circuit city and best buy were spreading like wildfire. More competition generally means lower prices, and the current establishment (whomever that may be...) doesn't like that. The consumer does, though.
> 
> ...


And I realize that the problem is not just from one source. (Consumers, Stores, Internet, Manufacturers) All of these are part of the problem. I also believe that there should be competition and low prices, but not as low as what ive seen in our industry. How the heck am I going to compete with a interent vendor selling Alpine's flagship headunit, the 9887, at $250!?

There are alot less now actually (at least it is in my area) than before, but still enough where 'price wars' are still happening.

I'm a new member, and through all the threads I have gone thru the past couple of days, all I see is people recieving their equipment from online and ebay. I have yet to see somone on this forum buy anything from a B&M shop.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

2fnloud said:


> Yeah that wouldn't make sence, what do you charge /hour labor rate? Dealerships charge like 75 - 80 / hour on electrical work.


It actually depends. On some products, we have free installs. Depending on how big the system/sale is, we sometimes work with customers and help them out by giving a discount on labor. Usually 30 min work=$49.


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

This thread should be split off into its own...

AC stuff isn't "outdated"...it's just that they need "work" to tune/mess with. Someone on here thought a 24XS wasn't an active crossover :surprised: Just cause it isn't a knob on the dash or inside a menu on your headunit, doesn't mean it's outdated. We're simply used to the easy route (Auto EQ/Auto TA, Imprint, etc) 



MarkZ said:


> I'm curious... How many car audio shops are there per city now compared to 15-20 years ago? Seems like there are a lot more now, at least around me. That could be a big part of the problem


Here in a city of 220k people...back when there were 176k people...we had 2 shops. Now there's 4 I know of and a couple I've never heard of till literally this week while messing around on CL.

I've only ever been into the 2 major ones.


Angrywhopper said:


> I, as many shop owners I know, are willing to sell below MSRP. What were not willing to do is sell something at 2% over cost like what many internet vendors are doing.


But that's the thing...I don't need a shop's support as a DIYer. I'm installing it...I'm tuning it...

I wanted an 880PRS about a year after they first came out. Local shop could only go down to like $450 (and that was the "hookup"). They were selling for ~$300 on the net. What could they do to add $150 + 5.5% tax worth of value to my purchase?

This is DIY Mobile Audio...this is how we roll 


Angrywhopper said:


> And I realize that the problem is not just from one source. (Consumers, Stores, Internet, Manufacturers) All of these are part of the problem. I also believe that there should be competition and low prices, but not as low as what ive seen in our industry. How the heck am I going to compete with a interent vendor selling Alpine's flagship headunit, the 9887, at $250!?
> 
> There are alot less now actually (at least it is in my area) than before, but still enough where 'price wars' are still happening.
> 
> I'm a new member, and through all the threads I have gone thru the past couple of days, all I see is people recieving their equipment from online and ebay. I have yet to see somone on this forum buy anything from a B&M shop.


One thread below this very thread...same section  http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-product-reviews/73717-review-unexpected-creations.html


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

ryan s said:


> One thread below this very thread...same section  http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-product-reviews/73717-review-unexpected-creations.html


Oh how I wish all customers were like this. I have spent literally hours upon hours with many customers, educating them, auditioning speakers for them to hear, and helping them build the perfect system for their needs..only to be told that everything I was selling them was cheaper on the internet


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

Angrywhopper said:


> Oh how I wish all customers were like this. I have spent literally hours upon hours with many customers, educating them, auditioning speakers for them to hear, and helping them build the perfect system for their needs..only to be told that everything I was selling them was cheaper on the internet


That is the very reason I decided not to pursue anything in the sales field. I'd love selling camera stuff, for example, but it would only be possible at B&H or Adorama in New York.

When I went to buy my (year old model) camera, the shop wanted full intro MSRP, $999. I got it off Amazon for $540. I asked if they could come down...nope. It was below their price, but they didn't get off the MSRP.

Since then, that shop has become way more competitive. My camera bag from them was *cheaper than from Amazon with free shipping, even though I paid sales tax*. The manager was willing to sell me a tripod below sticker...bringing it within $50 of Amazon. I'll pay the premium since they let me mess around as much as I want. I support them when, for example, I don't have to pay $80 + 6 week wait for a bag I could get for $59 in 3 days.

Little stuff...I buy all the time. $9 flash adapter I could have gotten online for $3...LumiQuest stuff for $20-25 apiece vs $10-15 online...that stuff I'll buy locally. 

And this is without going into the "B&Ms don't have what I want" discussion since I've typed too much already :laugh: 45WPM sucks sometimes LOL :laugh:


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

ryan s said:


> That is the very reason I decided not to pursue anything in the sales field. I'd love selling camera stuff, for example, but it would only be possible at B&H or Adorama in New York.
> 
> When I went to buy my (year old model) camera, the shop wanted full intro MSRP, $999. I got it off Amazon for $540. I asked if they could come down...nope. It was below their price, but they didn't get off the MSRP.
> 
> ...


Yeah, sales sucks sometimes!:worried:

You seem to be a very reasonable customer. Wish there were more like ya.


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

DS-21 said:


> Dr. Earl Geddes runs his possibly best-in-the-world Summa speakers off of a $200 Pioneer receiver.
> 
> I would not downgrade to a megabuck preamp and megabuck amps, because I would suffer degraded performance compared to modern gear.


Sorry, a bit OT but english is not my lenguage and what you said above ik not clear to me.
What do you think about the Summas and the design stand point behind them?
THanks!


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> I'm a new member, and through all the threads I have gone thru the past couple of days, all I see is people recieving their equipment from online and ebay. I have yet to see somone on this forum buy anything from a B&M shop.


Probably true. I last bought a car-fi component from a shop in 1994. (It was a PPI A404.2.) And even then I bought my AudioControl 24XS and Epicenter over the phone from OneCall, because they were much cheaper and I didn't trust anyone around me to touch my car. Unless one counts Madisound or PE as a "B&M shop." They do have storefronts, after all.



Angrywhopper said:


> New speakers and an amp is a big upgrade over their factory system and most don't care on spending more on processors or products that require measurement equipment.


*Actually, that's the big thing that has changed in the last 15 years.* Now OEM systems as a rule are better than what simple equipment jockeys can cobble together, thanks to increased attention and engineers who know how to listen and measure. So in fact adding new speakers and an amp without being able to know what one is doing via critical listening aided by measurement is more likely to ruin a car sonically than improve it.



Hernan said:


> Sorry, a bit OT but english is not my lenguage and what you said above ik not clear to me.
> What do you think about the Summas and the design stand point behind them?
> THanks!


From a design standpoint there's nothing else out there nearly as good. From a listening standpoint, haven't had the chance yet.


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## Redcloud (Feb 5, 2009)

ryan s said:


> That is the very reason I decided not to pursue anything in the sales field. I'd love selling camera stuff, for example, but it would only be possible at B&H or Adorama in New York.
> 
> When I went to buy my (year old model) camera, the shop wanted full intro MSRP, $999. I got it off Amazon for $540. I asked if they could come down...nope. It was below their price, but they didn't get off the MSRP.
> 
> ...


I have told the local B&M shop that unless he comes down from MSRP I will buy my stuff on the internet and pay them to install it. I don't mind paying a little extra to keep a shop in business but the price difference is to much. I think the problem is with the manufacturers not protecting their authorized dealers. The manufacturers are the ones that forcast x amount of units per quarter and when their authorized dealers don't meet those numbers, they dump the product on the street to the higher bidder. I think the manufacturers and B&M shops need to come to the realization that A. Lower your MSRP to become more competitive or B. don't flood the market with so much product. It's simple economics.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

Redcloud said:


> I have told the local B&M shop that unless he comes down from MSRP I will buy my stuff on the internet and pay them to install it. I don't mind paying a little extra to keep a shop in business but the price difference is to much. *I think the problem is with the manufacturers not protecting their authorized dealers*. The manufacturers are the ones that forcast x amount of units per quarter and when their authorized dealers don't meet those numbers, they dump the product on the street to the higher bidder. I think the manufacturers and B&M shops need to come to the realization that A. Lower your MSRP to become more competitive or B. don't flood the market with so much product. It's simple economics.


Bingo! Another part of the problem is that most manufacturers do not protect their dealers. Although better than many other industrys (e.x. Furniture), the protection is still not all there.


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## schnaps (Jul 25, 2007)

azngotskills said:


> Nothing but I had heard of noise problems with some units. *That doesnt mean they are outdated unless you are trying to do OEM integration or auto-tuning*. The local dealers you are going to either dont know what audiocontrol is or how to use it or just want to sell you something new. I know there are highly respected members and installers in the Floria area though.


I'm pretty new to OEM integration and was wondering what was wrong with Audiocontrols modules on OEM integration. I was looking at the LC6i in particular. Any help is appreciated.


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

Nothing is wrong with them but technology changes, now OEM systems have built-in EQ, loudness curves, multiple ouputs, etc and the newer aftermarket OEM integration processors flatten out and clean up the signal and allow proper filtering of the signals to be used with aftermarket amps


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Redcloud said:


> I have told the local B&M shop that unless he comes down from MSRP I will buy my stuff on the internet and pay them to install it.


This is where I'd have shown you the door. I never installed gear not purchased in my shop because my install bays were a service I provided for my customers. I was not about to turn away a customer because ine of the bays was being used by someone not willing to commit to the shop. 

Frankly, if you don't have the balls or knowledge to do the install yourself then you have no business telling that shop that you're only going to use them for labor. The simple fact is no one puts any value on installation until they try to do it and see how much work and knowledge is truly involved.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Umm, paying someone for her/his labor is "commit[ing] to the shop" in possibly the most meaningful way, as one is putting the sonic and functional integrity of what is likely to be her/his biggest or second-biggest investment in the shop's hands. 

Now, it makes perfect sense for a shop to prioritize customers who also buy gear, or to charge people who bring in their own stuff higher labor rates, but unless a shop's is running at capacity turning down paying customers seems foolish. 

Besides, how is someone buying parts on the internet and supplying them to a professional installer to install functionally any different from a company outsourcing the production of some of its products, using raw materials supplied by the company? That's the way an awful lot things today are made. If someone is not prepared to do business the way business is done in the modern world, one should not expect to survive in the modern world. Simple as that.


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## Redcloud (Feb 5, 2009)

quality_sound said:


> This is where I'd have shown you the door. I never installed gear not purchased in my shop because my install bays were a service I provided for my customers. I was not about to turn away a customer because ine of the bays was being used by someone not willing to commit to the shop.
> 
> Frankly, if you don't have the balls or knowledge to do the install yourself then you have no business telling that shop that you're only going to use them for labor. The simple fact is no one puts any value on installation until they try to do it and see how much work and knowledge is truly involved.


I have every right to tell the shop I will only use them for installation services. Just like they have the right to refuse me service if they see fit. If they can't compete on price it's not my problem. They are looking out for their own best interest and I am looking out for mine. Maybe they should rethink their business strategy or carry lines that are well made that haven't sold out to the Chinese who stress quantity over quality. There are examples of Manufacturers who are doing things right. JL Audio, Hybrid Audio and Audison. These companies put out quality product and have a unique competitive advantage. You can't find their product selling on the internet for 1/3 the cost. Therefore, if I decided I want said product I pay said price.

I don't own a table saw, router, jigsaw or sander. I see value in paying for installation services that I cannot do myself. If I can do it myself I will. Don't insult me because I am a informed consumer and I am unwilling to pay more for what I can get else where for a fraction of the cost


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Redcloud said:


> I have every right to tell the shop I will only use them for installation services. Just like they have the right to refuse me service if they see fit. If they can't compete on price it's not my problem. They are looking out for their own best interest and I am looking out for mine. Maybe they should rethink their business strategy or carry lines that are well made that haven't sold out to the Chinese who stress quantity over quality. There are examples of Manufacturers who are doing things right. JL Audio, Hybrid Audio and Audison. These companies put out quality product and have a unique competitive advantage. You can't find their product selling on the internet for 1/3 the cost. Therefore, if I decided I want said product I pay said price.
> 
> I don't own a table saw, router, jigsaw or sander. I see value in paying for installation services that I cannot do myself. If I can do it myself I will. Don't insult me because I am a informed consumer and I am unwilling to pay more for what I can get else where for a fraction of the cost


Exactly.

Besides, what are people supposed to do when they buy a new car? Buy all brand new audio equipment too?


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## schnaps (Jul 25, 2007)

azngotskills said:


> Nothing is wrong with them but technology changes, now OEM systems have built-in EQ, loudness curves, multiple ouputs, etc and the newer aftermarket OEM integration processors flatten out and clean up the signal and allow proper filtering of the signals to be used with aftermarket amps


Cool thanks. I just asked because I was looking into the AudioControl LC6i and EQS for OEM integration. Any suggestions?


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## audio MD (Jan 17, 2010)

yea, Go with the LC6i and go with one of the digital Audio Control units. I have a DQS with a DDC controller if you're interested.


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## 83corolla (Nov 5, 2009)

quality_sound said:


> This is where I'd have shown you the door. I never installed gear not purchased in my shop because my install bays were a service I provided for my customers. I was not about to turn away a customer because ine of the bays was being used by someone not willing to commit to the shop.
> 
> Frankly, if you don't have the balls or knowledge to do the install yourself then you have no business telling that shop that you're only going to use them for labor. The simple fact is no one puts any value on installation until they try to do it and see how much work and knowledge is truly involved.


Wow you must be doing well to turn down business like that. When I read that I thought you were kidding. I went the route of buying my own equiptment most new some used. I called some pro shops (6) for quotes on labor only. Not 1 place turned me down. Long story short I went with the 2nd quote. Why? This guy had a great attitude. 

I was sick of calling places and meeting for estimates with people with no will. Some of these people sounded like they didn't want to even be there. Why the heck would I want to take my car to a place that didn't have a passion for car audio? My guy was all about it and didn't try to sell me more than a sub only because I didn't have one yet. He was extreamly passionate about car audio and didn't give too ****s about me bringing in my own ****. All this mind you with a z06, bentley sedan, rolls Royce phantom, and s500 parked outside all with custom work done. By the way I rolled up in an 83 corolla. He gets all my business treats me like the guy with the phantom I will exclusively go with him. Last but not least he tunes my sounds up for free without me asking. Periodicly he'll have me come by to hear how everything sounds and how I'm liking my system. I laugh because he takes a dump on everyone I called or met. Ever.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

I've been running car audio since 1991 and there is nothing out there that couldn't benefit from Audio Control products. A system without them just sounds BLAH.


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## tinctorus (Oct 5, 2009)

Can one of you guy's familiar with audiocontrol stuff give me your thoughts on the 2xs???

I just got one in trade and thought it may be helpful to eq my mid bass speakers somewhat

I realize it comes with a 90hz crossover in it but also read that I can adjust that myself by just changing to a different resistor
Is this thing worth a damn for my application??

Also I DO NOT agree with turning down someone's business just because they didnt buy the product from my company....Labor is labor and if you are gonna turn that down that's just plain ****ing stupid, Especially in THIS economy when someone is WILLING to GIVE you there hard earned money and entrust you with there vehicle

I realize I work for a large corporation but I still wont turn away business like you have CHOSEN to do, Frankly with that attitude I dont see you being in business for yourself all that much longer if you keep with that piss poor holier than though attitude,Frankly people like you are the reason people started becoming MORE INFORMED and started doing the work themselves JUST SO THEY DONT HAVE TO DEAL WITH SHOP OWNERS LIKE YOU

I have also worked for smaller custom shops that had that attitude of if you didnt buy your product here we dont want to install it,And you know what NONE of those shops are in business any longer...


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## Stage7 (Jan 5, 2010)

83corolla said:


> Wow you must be doing well to turn down business like that. When I read that I thought you were kidding. I went the route of buying my own equiptment most new some used. I called some pro shops (6) for quotes on labor only. Not 1 place turned me down. Long story short I went with the 2nd quote. Why? This guy had a great attitude.
> 
> I was sick of calling places and meeting for estimates with people with no will. Some of these people sounded like they didn't want to even be there. Why the heck would I want to take my car to a place that didn't have a passion for car audio? My guy was all about it and didn't try to sell me more than a sub only because I didn't have one yet. He was extreamly passionate about car audio and didn't give too ****s about me bringing in my own ****. All this mind you with a z06, bentley sedan, rolls Royce phantom, and s500 parked outside all with custom work done. By the way I rolled up in an 83 corolla. He gets all my business treats me like the guy with the phantom I will exclusively go with him. Last but not least he tunes my sounds up for free without me asking. Periodicly he'll have me come by to hear how everything sounds and how I'm liking my system. I laugh because he takes a dump on everyone I called or met. Ever.


Good story. Congrats on finding a gem of a shop. Not many gems around in ANY business category. This economy will continue to weed most of them out though.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I did just fine. The point was it's customers like you that look at nothing but the bottom line that force shops to charge retail. Installtion is at best a break even service. If you're taking in a lot of installs but not selling much you're forced to charge more for the gear you do sell. 

No one expects a customer to buy all new gear every time they buy a new car, that's not taking care of your customer. But someone that hasn't bought anything from me isn't a customer and most likely never will be because all theyll ever see my shop as is a labor force.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

How come there's so much overhead with labor? It seems like that should be a money maker. Car shops do ok on labor.


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## 83corolla (Nov 5, 2009)

it's customers like you that look at nothing but the bottom line that force shops to charge retail. 



like i said i took the second highest estimate. it was not all about the money. i am not sure how the business works and why you do not make money from installation especially when a customer is asking for everything custom. like i said tho he gets all my business now so when i go back for stuff like an alarm or HID lights and what have you i am buying products and everyone is happy.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> How come there's so much overhead with labor? It seems like that should be a money maker. Car shops do ok on labor.


If you don't have a bay you don't need extra room. There's the installers pay (typically half of the installation cost if you want to keep a good installer around), utilities (electricity is the big one here), tools, supplies, consumables that aren't charged (nuts, bolts, screws, connectors, etc), uniforms if you don't want your guys to look like hippies, etc. it adds up, and fast. 

If you don't have all the overhead of having a bay then you can very easily make money on installation. If you want to keep a good installer I guarantee it won't happen if you have him working in a parking lot or under an easy up. 

Then you have the guys coming in with all their own gear AND want discounted labor. Then they piss and moan when I charge to troubleshoot, remove or reinstall a bad piece of equipment. You should see their faces when I told them the price of the cabling, even after I took almost all of the profit out of it to keep the price to the absurd number they wanted me to try and get to. 

People nowadays feel like they're entitled to everything. Entitled to use shops with no concern for the shop. Entitled to dealer pricing. Entitled to free install accessories. It makes me sick and was one of the reasons I got out.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> If you don't have a bay you don't need extra room. There's the installers pay (typically half of the installation cost if you want to keep a good installer around), utilities (electricity is the big one here), tools, supplies, consumables that aren't charged (nuts, bolts, screws, connectors, etc), uniforms if you don't want your guys to look like hippies, etc. it adds up, and fast.


Some of the things you list are things you're going to pay just to keep the doors open. Utilities and tools for example. So it appears to come down to the installer's wage and consumables, right?

So I guess it would cost you more if you had to hire an extra installer. But for shops that are a little light in business, it makes sense to take on that kind of work, right?



> If you don't have all the overhead of having a bay then you can very easily make money on installation. If you want to keep a good installer I guarantee it won't happen if you have him working in a parking lot or under an easy up.
> 
> Then you have the guys coming in with all their own gear AND want discounted labor. Then they piss and moan when I charge to troubleshoot, remove or reinstall a bad piece of equipment. You should see their faces when I told them the price of the cabling, even after I took almost all of the profit out of it to keep the price to the absurd number they wanted me to try and get to.
> 
> People nowadays feel like they're entitled to everything. Entitled to use shops with no concern for the shop. Entitled to dealer pricing. Entitled to free install accessories. It makes me sick and was one of the reasons I got out.


That part makes sense to me. Liability. If the system quits, the user might blame the installation when it could in fact be the equipment. That might be a good reason to stay away from stuff that wasn't sold by the shop.

But upstart shops or shops struggling to stay afloat -- they could probably use all the business they can get.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> Some of the things you list are things you're going to pay just to keep the doors open. Utilities and tools for example. So it appears to come down to the installer's wage and consumables, right?
> 
> So I guess it would cost you more if you had to hire an extra installer. But for shops that are a little light in business, it makes sense to take on that kind of work, right?[/quote
> 
> ...


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> MarkZ said:
> 
> 
> > Some of the things you list are things you're going to pay just to keep the doors open. Utilities and tools for example. So it appears to come down to the installer's wage and consumables, right?
> ...


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

A body shop doesn't have the product overhead a car audio shop will. If a car audio shop never had to order product to keep on display or keep in stock then they wouldn't need a nice showroom or all of that product which would free up LOADS of money. Plus, I can't think of the last time I saw a body shop negotiate labor, nor anyone ask them to. I've seen them adjust the amount of time for a job but never seen anyone say they wanted to change the labor rate. 

To be honest I can't really think of another business model that's quite like car audio. Every other one I can think of doesn't have to have the front end that a car audio shop does.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Interesting. Thanks.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

I have to agree with _Quality Sound_ on most of his points. Unfortunantely with the economy the way it is, our shop is installing products that customer bought from somewhere else.

I'll touch on a few points though. 

First, is liability. Most of the problems I have ever encountered at the shop have to do when customers bring their stuff, we install it, and it turns out not to work or stops working a week later. They blame the shop and will usually cause a scene and not understand that the install was done properly and their product is faulty. 

Second, price. Try telling a average customer that you will charge them $100-$150 a hour to work on their car. You go to any mechanic and thats what they charge, yet no one complains. People these days want their amp, subwoofer and stereo installed for $100.

Third, we need to move product. Most stores have alot of stock on hand, and they need to move it. You as a consumer want our expertise in installing, well we won't do it for free and requires the help of buying from us, and not some online vendor that doesnt' give two craps about your vehicle or needs.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

83corolla said:


> I was sick of calling places and meeting for estimates with people with no will. Some of these people sounded like they didn't want to even be there. Why the heck would I want to take my car to a place that didn't have a passion for car audio?


Why should anyone have passion for your car audio when your not even buying products from them? I didn't know the world revolved around you You want to buy stuff online and only use me for my expertise? Pshhh go somehwere else, im better than that.

Customers that come to me seeking help, with eventually buying from me always get my opinions and help while I make sure their needs are filled.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> Why should anyone have passion for your car audio when your not even buying products from them? I didn't know the world revolved around you You want to buy stuff online and only use me for my expertise? Pshhh go somehwere else, im better than that.
> 
> Customers that come to me seeking help, with eventually buying from me always get my opinions and help while I make sure their needs are filled.


He apparently doesn't need you. He found someone willing to do it for him.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> He apparently doesn't need you. He found someone willing to do it for him.


O I know he doesn't. You can find an 'installer' on each corner. But I know a ton of great, expert installers that wouldn't.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

He's happy with the guy, so win-win.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> He's happy with the guy, so win-win.


Yep, it's not extremely hard to make a guy with an 83 corolla happy. Had he had an 2010 Escalade on the other hand, it culda ended in a different result..


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## Redcloud (Feb 5, 2009)

Angrywhopper said:


> I have to agree with _Quality Sound_ on most of his points. Unfortunantely with the economy the way it is, our shop is installing products that customer bought from somewhere else.
> 
> I'll touch on a few points though.
> 
> ...


I have had a couple of amps I had go bad but at that point the cables were already ran and all I had to do was send the bad amp back to where I got it from and wait on a new one. Once I got the new amp I would just hook it up myself.

Most shops around here charge 75.00 an hour, which in my mind is perfectly reasonable for stuff that I cannot do myself. 

If someone is paying you for expertise in installing gear how are you doing it for free? I have always told myself the more cash I save on equipment the better install I can get. Is there something wrong with that?


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

Redcloud said:


> I have had a couple of amps I had go bad but at that point the cables were already ran and all I had to do was send the bad amp back to where I got it from and wait on a new one. Once I got the new amp I would just hook it up myself.
> 
> Most shops around here charge 75.00 an hour, which in my mind is perfectly reasonable for stuff that I cannot do myself.
> 
> If someone is paying you for expertise in installing gear how are you doing it for free? *I have always told myself the more cash I save on equipment the better install I can get.* Is there something wrong with that?


yes and no. yes it's always good to find a great deal. but what if that deal is bad merchandise, a knockoff of an item, b product (also known as refurb), or even stolen? it's like it was stated earlier you could have a perfect install and if the equipment is bad they will blame the installer


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## jimboman (Jun 24, 2008)

I'm with Angry and Quality on this one. I'm not a shop owner or an installer.
It seems that with places like ebay and sonic, you can get a dirt cheap product. It is painful to hear of people going into a B&M shop to look, listen and play around with equipment and walk on out and get on the net and get the stuff online. Local shops pay up front and have overhead to be able to display these things.
It is amazing how some people can be such cheap asses about certain things, yet they still manage to have iphone plans averaging $100 a month, they can afford to pay another $100 a month for DSL and Satalite/Cable, $15 for XM/Sirius and $10 for netflix, yet they haggle ove a couple of bux for an installer to intall something they bought online fo cheap.

I am not sure how this topic went from AC equipment to this...


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

Redcloud said:


> I have had a couple of amps I had go bad but at that point the cables were already ran and all I had to do was send the bad amp back to where I got it from and wait on a new one. Once I got the new amp I would just hook it up myself.
> 
> Most shops around here charge 75.00 an hour, which in my mind is perfectly reasonable for stuff that I cannot do myself.
> 
> If someone is paying you for expertise in installing gear how are you doing it for free? I have always told myself the more cash I save on equipment the better install I can get. Is there something wrong with that?


Labor alone won't keep my doors and many other shops door's open. Stores need to sell products AND labor to be able to stay afloat.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

Horsemanwill said:


> yes and no. yes it's always good to find a great deal. but what if that deal is bad merchandise, a knockoff of an item, b product (also known as refurb), or even stolen? it's like it was stated earlier *you could have a perfect install and if the equipment is bad they will blame the installer*


exactly!


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

jimboman said:


> I'm with Angry and Quality on this one. I'm not a shop owner or an installer.
> It seems that with places like ebay and sonic, you can get a dirt cheap product. It is painful to hear of people going into a B&M shop to look, listen and play around with equipment and walk on out and get on the net and get the stuff online. Local shops pay up front and have overhead to be able to display these things.
> It is amazing how some people can be such cheap asses about certain things, yet they still manage to have iphone plans averaging $100 a month, they can afford to pay another $100 a month for DSL and Satalite/Cable, $15 for XM/Sirius and $10 for netflix, yet they haggle ove a couple of bux for an installer to intall something they bought online fo cheap.
> 
> I am not sure how this topic went from AC equipment to this...


Yep, most people don't know the cost of operating a shop and the cost of displays.


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## BassAddictJ (Oct 1, 2009)

IMO audiocontrol makes higher quality products than most of the crap out there. your local shop is just trying to sell you crap THEY sell.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

jimboman said:


> I'm with Angry and Quality on this one. I'm not a shop owner or an installer.
> It seems that with places like ebay and sonic, you can get a dirt cheap product. It is painful to hear of people going into a B&M shop to look, listen and play around with equipment and walk on out and get on the net and get the stuff online. Local shops pay up front and have overhead to be able to display these things.
> It is amazing how some people can be such cheap asses about certain things, yet they still manage to have iphone plans averaging $100 a month, they can afford to pay another $100 a month for DSL and Satalite/Cable, $15 for XM/Sirius and $10 for netflix, yet they haggle ove a couple of bux for an installer to intall something they bought online fo cheap.


Why is that puzzling? It makes sense to me. You pay for stuff according to how important it is to you. Do you research and spend money on shoes the same way you do audio equipment? I know I don't. But I know there are many shoe connoisseurs who wonder "why the hell do they spend so much time and money on car audio?", while they spend $500 on a pair of loafers.

Some things are just more important to people than other things. So it makes sense that not everyone is going to go out and buy a Genesis monoblock for their tweeters and drop $3k on a custom installation. I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

There are lots of things that I like to spend money on. But since I only have a limited amount of money to spend, I have to skimp on some things. Most people are in that boat. So I don't know why it amazes you that people want to save so that they can spend money on other stuff too.


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## methodsound (Oct 1, 2009)

Audio Control is a religion that should not be forced onto your stereo shop. They either believe or they don't. 

What is is important that they have skilled technicians that truly understand the fundamentals of integration, installation technique, and audio theory/ tuning. It helps if they own an RTA and know what they are doing. The best way to find out is to ask if you can see and hear their demo car for yourself. If they want to install brand X signal summing devise and crossover/ EQ then let them. As long as they stand behind the performance of the product + installation 100%. There is nothing wrong with letting a good installer use the product that they believe in to get the job done. Remember, their reputation is on the line with every installation they perform. 

Of course, an unskilled shop, without special tuning equipment, would not want to get involved in installing or tuning a sound processor of any brand, so they might try to sell you a system without a processor. Watch out for these guys.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

BassAddictJ said:


> IMO audiocontrol makes higher quality products than most of the crap out there. your local shop is just trying to sell you crap THEY sell.


Yes, AC makes some really good gear but they can't be sold in every shop or it would devalue in about 10 seconds. What you shoudl be more worried about is if your shop can get you to the place you want to be with the gear that they DO sell. Say I sell Rockford but you want AC. You bring me and AC eq to install. Will the results be as good as using a Rockford piece? Maybe, maybe not. The big thing is familiarity. Don't get so wrapped up in the brand unless you _need_ something that can't be done with something else. 



MarkZ said:


> Why is that puzzling? It makes sense to me. You pay for stuff according to how important it is to you. Do you research and spend money on shoes the same way you do audio equipment? I know I don't. But I know there are many shoe connoisseurs who wonder "why the hell do they spend so much time and money on car audio?", while they spend $500 on a pair of loafers.
> 
> Some things are just more important to people than other things. So it makes sense that not everyone is going to go out and buy a Genesis monoblock for their tweeters and drop $3k on a custom installation. I know I sure as hell wouldn't.
> 
> There are lots of things that I like to spend money on. But since I only have a limited amount of money to spend, I have to skimp on some things. Most people are in that boat. So I don't know why it amazes you that people want to save so that they can spend money on other stuff too.


No one's saying you have to buy a Genesis to run your tweeters and get a high end install. But don't assume that because YOU don't value the work that is has no value. I'm not saying "you" to mean you personally, just in a general sense.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> No one's saying you have to buy a Genesis to run your tweeters and get a high end install. But don't assume that because YOU don't value the work that is has no value. I'm not saying "you" to mean you personally, just in a general sense.


Oh no, I wouldn't say that. I just think that everybody has different goals and different needs. So it's a mistake to try to lump everyone into one category and suggest that they all take the same approach to car audio. And I sure as hell wouldn't criticize anyone for not going balls out with their car audio system. Those of us on this forum are the weirdos, not them.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Agreed, variety is the spice of life and all that jazz. But when a customer wants to buy of the net to save a few bucks and then comes to my shop and not only want labor only but also wants discounted labor because "his buddy" will do it for a 6-pack then he is absolutely devaluing the knowledge and skills needed to do the job correctly. 

I can empathize with a lot of customers that DO want to do it on their own, or as much as possible though. It's a pride of ownership thing. In those instances where I don't have the materials, tools, time, or the basic skills to do something I would approach a shop and get a quote and fully understand that I'm not, and really shouldn't be, their first priority so I might pay a bit more and it might take a bit longer if I get bumped for a customer. 

But having spent so much time in the industry it's easier for me to do that.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

methodsound said:


> Audio Control is a religion that should not be forced onto your stereo shop. They either believe or they don't.
> 
> What is is important that they have skilled technicians that truly understand the fundamentals of integration, installation technique, and audio theory/ tuning. It helps if they own an RTA and know what they are doing. The best way to find out is to ask if you can see and hear their demo car for yourself. If they want to install brand X signal summing devise and crossover/ EQ then let them. As long as they stand behind the performance of the product + installation 100%. There is nothing wrong with letting a good installer use the product that they believe in to get the job done. Remember, their reputation is on the line with every installation they perform.
> 
> Of course, an unskilled shop, without special tuning equipment, would not want to get involved in installing or tuning a sound processor of any brand, so they might try to sell you a system without a processor. Watch out for these guys.


So if a shop does not sell a customer a processor, that means their bad and everyone should 'stay away'?:laugh:

YOU seem like you don't know what your talking about, nor that every customer is different and unique. Not every customer needs a processor, and if your selling customers that don't need one a processor, you would be the reason why alot of people are scared to come into our shops in fear of getting ripped off.


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## jimboman (Jun 24, 2008)

MarkZ said:


> There are lots of things that I like to spend money on. But since I only have a limited amount of money to spend, I have to skimp on some things. Most people are in that boat. So I don't know why it amazes you that people want to save so that they can spend money on other stuff too.


I hear you on that!! 

But I do like to support the local shops as well... (Well te good ones at least)

I can understand if you want a certain item or brand that they don't carry - like if you brought in an ID sub and you wanted them to build an enclosure for it (and they claim they've never heard of the brand, or don't deal with that company), but if its a RF or Pioneer they sell, and someone goes in and plays with it there, comes back in a couple of weeks with one from Sonic, and wants the shop to install it for $20. 

We need to help out the good shops so they too can keep the doors open, and they can't do that on lowballed installs alone... granted there are many people that do not buy online and will do full business with the shop...


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## methodsound (Oct 1, 2009)

Angrywhopper said:


> So if a shop does not sell a customer a processor, that means their bad and everyone should 'stay away'?:laugh:
> 
> YOU seem like you don't know what your talking about, nor that every customer is different and unique. Not every customer needs a processor, and if your selling customers that don't need one a processor, you would be the reason why alot of people are scared to come into our shops in fear of getting ripped off.


Whoa, slow down there. Did the advise I gave to the OP really merit such a personal attack from you? No, I don't think so. 

My advise was directed to the OP (Fitzo) who started this thread as a customer asking for help finding a shop that can install an Audio Control processor for them. My advise to this customer was to focus on finding a shop that has all the skills, tools, and experience that it takes to properly install a sound processor. I also advised them not to focus so much on just Audio Control because a good shop might want to use a different brand that they stand behind instead.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

jimboman said:


> I hear you on that!!
> 
> But I do like to support the local shops as well... (Well te good ones at least)
> 
> ...


Yeah, but I'm not a big fan of "supporting" local shops. These guys probably have more money than I do, so I'm certainly in no place to support any of them just for the sake of supporting them.  If someone's gonna give me a better price on a product or service, even if it's halfway across the country over the internet, then I'd rather "support" them.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> Yeah, but I'm not a big fan of "supporting" local shops. These guys probably have more money than I do, so I'm certainly in no place to support any of them just for the sake of supporting them.  If someone's gonna give me a better price on a product or service, even if it's halfway across the country over the internet, then I'd rather "support" them.


And THIS is the reason 90% of the country will never see another IASCA, MECA event. The dealers can't afford to host the shows anymore because people would rather save a few dollars and give up a potential great relationship wth a shop, which BTW has many of it's own perks.

And how do you know you're going to get better service? You're buying based on price alone so you've never see what kind of service the shop has to offer.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> And THIS is the reason 90% of the country will never see another IASCA, MECA event. The dealers can't afford to host the shows anymore because people would rather save a few dollars and give up a potential great relationship wth a shop, which BTW has many of it's own perks.
> 
> And how do you know you're going to get better service? You're buying based on price alone so you've never see what kind of service the shop has to offer.


Shopping by price tends to be the smartest way of going about things. The correlation between price and quality in many service industries is weak, if not absent. It's not much different with car audio, IME.

I buy my audio equipment online, but that's because I "DIY". So I'm probably not a good example. I'm not a target demographic for a shop.

Lots of other people buy online because they get the same exact product for cheaper and are willing to forego warranty and product service in exchange. It's all about risk-reward. This isn't out of the ordinary. Some people buy extended warranties, some don't. Is one choice "right" and the other "wrong"? Of course not. Some people are just riskier than others (or are in a position where they have to take less risk than others...).

And so it is with car audio. You shop owners seem flabbergasted that anyone would choose not to buy equipment from local dealers with manufacturer warranties and face-to-face service, etc. And those are all good things. But you have to realize that people value stuff differently from one another. It's just the way commerce works. If it was a good deal for everyone, then market forces would dictate that the price goes up until it isn't.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, only ingorant of the intangibles that come with patronizing a good shop. 

I don't think anyone in retail in any form is shocked that people don't buy from B&Ms. What we're shocked by is how these same people now ***** that everything is foreign made throw-away junk. You can't have it both ways. You want lowest pricing, you get crap.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

methodsound said:


> Whoa, slow down there. Did the advise I gave to the OP really merit such a personal attack from you? No, I don't think so.
> 
> My advise was directed to the OP (Fitzo) who started this thread as a customer asking for help finding a shop that can install an Audio Control processor for them. My advise to this customer was to focus on finding a shop that has all the skills, tools, and experience that it takes to properly install a sound processor. I also advised them not to focus so much on just Audio Control because a good shop might want to use a different brand that they stand behind instead.


With your statement, you made a personal attack against every shop owner, installer, and salesman that doesn't sell a processor to every customer that walks through the door.

I would say that less than 1/4 of our sales include processors, but that doesn't make us a bad shop or somone to 'stay away' from. I know a few other store owners that also rarely sell processors, but are extremely honest and good guys just making a living and helping their customers fulfill their car audio needs.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

quality_sound said:


> And THIS is the reason 90% of the country will never see another IASCA, MECA event. The dealers can't afford to host the shows anymore because people would rather save a few dollars and give up a potential great relationship wth a shop, which BTW has many of it's own perks.
> 
> And how do you know you're going to get better service? You're buying based on price alone so you've never see what kind of service the shop has to offer.


Exactly. Not only are these events going to disappear, but so are manufacturers. In the past couple of years alone, car audio lost Panasonic and Eclipse. Even at CES, car audio manufacturers are getting smaller and smaller booths and some are even skipping it all together. And to be honest, in 5 years I could predict a few companys that wont be in 12v anymore either.

What does that mean for the consumer? First off, less competitors makes prices go up. Also, innovation and new products would no longer exist since theres no reason for the manufacturers to spend money on R&D.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> I'm not saying you're right or wrong, only ingorant of the intangibles that come with patronizing a good shop.
> 
> I don't think anyone in retail in any form is shocked that people don't buy from B&Ms. What we're shocked by is how these same people now ***** that everything is foreign made throw-away junk. You can't have it both ways. You want lowest pricing, you get crap.


You've lost any semblance of objectivity you might have had with this issue.

Your last sentence is completely nonsensical. How does buying the identical amp online as what you sell in the store prop up "foreign made throw-away junk"? If you want lowest pricing, you can still get very good equipment. We're not talking about buying flea market equipment. We're talking about a certain subset of people choosing not to give welfare to their local shop owner.

I have very good equipment. I didn't buy it at a shop. It must be crap.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Simple. When you're shopping on PRICE the manufacturers are forced to find cheaper labor and use cheaper parts. If they can't move their product through retail or "other" channels they'll take a hit and then come back with something that costs less to make so the consumer can still hit the price point they want. 

And how is it welfare for a local shop owner? No really, I'd love to hear how it's welfare. You're suggesting that shop owners and employees don't provide any type of service or knowledge.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> Exactly. Not only are these events going to disappear, but so are manufacturers. In the past couple of years alone, car audio lost Panasonic and Eclipse. Even at CES, car audio manufacturers are getting smaller and smaller booths and some are even skipping it all together. And to be honest, in 5 years I could predict a few companys that wont be in 12v anymore either.
> 
> What does that mean for the consumer? First off, less competitors makes prices go up. Also, innovation and new products would no longer exist since theres no reason for the manufacturers to spend money on R&D.


I'm sorry, but that's not how it works. You're using the same logical fallacies that people use when saying that Wal-Mart will drive businesses away and then drive the prices up. In a free market, and with a very low barrier to entry (such as in basic electronics manufacture), what you describe is fantasy.

If prices go up, entrepeneurs will hit the scene. Prices find a natural balance. Economics 101.

As long as manufacturers can produce something USEFUL to the consumer, R&D will continue. R&D depends on projected trends. Now, if they determine that there will be no market for the product they're R&D-ing, then it becomes economically unfeasible to invest those resources into the project.

I'm a little surprised at how little some of the successful shop owners here know about basic economics and business. You guys must be very talented installers.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> Simple. When you're shopping on PRICE the manufacturers are forced to find cheaper labor and use cheaper parts. If they can't move their product through retail or "other" channels they'll take a hit and then come back with something that costs less to make so the consumer can still hit the price point they want.
> 
> And how is it welfare for a local shop owner? No really, I'd love to hear how it's welfare. You're suggesting that shop owners and employees don't provide any type of service or knowledge.


When you've gotten to the point where you're chiding everybody for not paying extra for the same product, and your buddy is drumming up unrealistic doomsday stories, then it looks an awful lot like a beggar and his tin cup. The fact is -- not everybody wants or needs your service, and not everybody who DOES want your service is willing to pay the extra price for it. Unless you own a ferrari, buy $500 cuts of meat, and live in a mansion, you're like the rest of us having to make decisions based on cost-benefit. Yes, you may offer a valuable service, but that's only half the equation -- the other half is if it's worth the extra money. 

If everybody is gravitating away from your service and towards something else, you want to blame the consumer. That's the height of arrogance. The way the real world works, if consumers aren't buying what you have to sell, either your business model is out of whack or what you have to sell is going the way of the dodo. The consumer is not the problem. You (figurative 'you') are.


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## methodsound (Oct 1, 2009)

Angrywhopper said:


> With your statement, you made a personal attack against every shop owner, installer, and salesman that doesn't sell a processor to every customer that walks through the door.
> 
> I would say that less than 1/4 of our sales include processors, but that doesn't make us a bad shop or somone to 'stay away' from. I know a few other store owners that also rarely sell processors, but are extremely honest and good guys just making a living and helping their customers fulfill their car audio needs.


No, that is not what I said. Remember, the customer in this example is specifically looking to buy a sound processor. My advise was to find a skilled shop that had the right equipment and experience to install it properly. My warning was to stay away from shops that have no idea how to install and tune a sound processor. I did not say to stay away from shops that do not use processors in every installation. 

Do I use a sound processor in every installation?... no.
Do I have the skills, equipment, and experience needed to install a sound processor if the customer wants one?.... yes.


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## dbiegel (Oct 15, 2006)

Most diverted thread ever award. Really interesting comments. My thoughts pretty much mirror what MarkZ has been saying, but here's another way that I look at it:

So it seems that the basic business model for a car audio shop is to charge more for the product, in return for "intangible" values added. What if, instead of apportioning this $$ into the product cost, we just list out the costs separately:

Basic advice on what you should get (with conflicts of interest: to liquidate existing inventory, make install quicker, make the minimum volume requirements for manufacturers carried, maximize margins, etc.) (also often poor advice regardless) -- $20
Auditioning speakers -- $30
Good feelings from face to face service -- $25
Shop will handle product issues for you -- $40
Willingness to entertain your stupid comments and questions -- $20
Willingness to fake laugh at your dumb jokes -- $15

Value added to your purchase: $150

If a customer walks into a shop and is presented this bill, instead of just the $150 tacked onto his product cost, would he still go for it? I understand my list is a little sarcastic for fun, but what other intangibles does a typical shop really give? What if you just charged the customer $150 in "consulting fees" for your expertise and service, rather than build it into the product? Then it wouldn't matter where the equipment was purchased, but would the customer consider this a good value?

There's something "sneaky" to me about having these costs randomly lumped into the product, rather than full disclosure of what I'm paying for. You could even charge per dumb joke, for the exact time needed to entertain your ex-wife story, etc. Yeah, there's a lot of sarcasm in what I'm saying, but isn't this actually the reality of a typical transaction?


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> I'm sorry, but that's not how it works. You're using the same logical fallacies that people use when saying that Wal-Mart will drive businesses away and then drive the prices up. In a free market, and with a very low barrier to entry (such as in basic electronics manufacture), what you describe is fantasy.
> 
> If prices go up, entrepeneurs will hit the scene. Prices find a natural balance. Economics 101.
> 
> ...


Hmmm maybe I should go back to one of my business professors of 10 years, who was working in industry as a consultant for a few major american companies and even the U.S. government, that shes wrong. 

She gave me the SAME exact example as I did to you, except using textbooks instead of car audio.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> Hmmm maybe I should go back to one of my business professors of 10 years, who was working in industry as a consultant for a few major american companies and even the U.S. government, that shes wrong.
> 
> She gave me the SAME exact example as I did to you, except using textbooks instead of car audio.


If that's what she told you, then you should demand a refund.

I think it's more likely that you just misinterpreted what she said.


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

dbiegel said:


> Most diverted thread ever award. Really interesting comments. My thoughts pretty much mirror what MarkZ has been saying, but here's another way that I look at it:
> 
> So it seems that the basic business model for a car audio shop is to charge more for the product, in return for "intangible" values added. What if, instead of apportioning this $$ into the product cost, we just list out the costs separately:
> 
> ...


"consulting fees" hmmm seems like another business in the US charges those. i believe they are called lawyers. is it ok for them and not car audio business's?


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> If that's what she told you, then you should demand a refund.
> 
> I think it's more likely that you just misinterpreted what she said.


Nope. It had to do with students buying textbooks online, either used or interntationally, or even new from non authorized dealers. In those cases, the publisher and the author didn't make any money. Eventually the authors wont write books anymore and so the publishers will close their doors. That means no more textbooks for the consumer 

Obviously car audio is different than textbooks, but the same thing could happen and is happening. 2 manufacturers leaving the industry within the past couple years is proof enough.


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## dbiegel (Oct 15, 2006)

Angrywhopper said:


> Nope. It had to do with students buying textbooks online, either used or interntationally, or even new from non authorized dealers. In those cases, the publisher and the author didn't make any money. Eventually the authors wont write books anymore and so the publishers will close their doors. That means no more textbooks for the consumer
> 
> Obviously car audio is different than textbooks, but the same thing could happen and is happening. 2 manufacturers leaving the industry within the past couple years is proof enough.


Funny thing is, just a couple of hours ago, I ordered two textbooks I need for this semester -- the much cheaper international versions. I saved over $100 each compared to my university bookstore. I also buy all my car audio gear through online discount sites, forum classifieds, and ebay. I guess I'm responsible for the demise of both the textbook and car audio industries. 

It would be pretty ironic if the author of a consumer behavior textbook, discussing studies that describe why I've done what I've done, were to complain about it.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> Nope. It had to do with students buying textbooks online, either used or interntationally, or even new from non authorized dealers. In those cases, the publisher and the author didn't make any money. Eventually the authors wont write books anymore and so the publishers will close their doors. That means no more textbooks for the consumer


Haha let me guess. She writes textbooks for a living? :laugh:

The fact is... she's wrong. Many authors work for free. Some are even textbook authors. Some write even more scholarly work. For example, the thousands and thousands of articles that are published every year in peer-reviewed journals -- the vast majority of these publishers don't pay the authors. Many, including one that I published last year, actually cost the author money (submission fees, color images, etc). Yet these publishers thrive, and never find a shortage of willing authors.

It's hard to apply this to car audio, because as you mentioned they are very different industries. One is technology-based, the other is intellectual property-based (although not entirely).

And I can prove everything I've said. Your argument is slippery-slope. But there IS no slope. People are free to buy online as much as they want, and we see the outcome. Are some manufacturers closing up shop (at least in car audio land)? Yup! When the market is saturated, that's what happens. But there are still more companies in the car audio game now than there were 15 years ago.

Has R&D ceased? Hell no. There have been more technological advances in the past ten years in car audio than in the previous ten. In another thread, we hear about JBL preparing to release a state of the art processor. Signal processing, amplifier efficiency, speaker efficiency, speaker bandwidth, source capabilities, etc have all flourished -- and costs have gone down. 

And this all has happened, even though many people have been buying online. Your predictions are wrong. And we don't need a crystal ball to see it.

Besides all that, it doesn't pass the logic test. A bunch of people are buying a product that they like online. You're suggesting that the product will dry up and that they'll either no longer be able to buy it or it will grow to be too expensive. But if there's a market for that product, then what will prevent an entrepeneur from entering the arena and offering that product again??


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Angrywhopper said:


> Nope. It had to do with students buying textbooks online, either used or interntationally, or even new from non authorized dealers. In those cases, the publisher and the author didn't make any money. Eventually the authors wont write books anymore and so the publishers will close their doors. That means no more textbooks for the consumer
> 
> Obviously car audio is different than textbooks, but the same thing could happen and is happening. 2 manufacturers leaving the industry within the past couple years is proof enough.


I should stay out of this ... but instead, i just gotta respond to the textbook example. If your professor of economics really said this, she needs a new career. It not only demonstrates an incredibly short-sighted view, but it also demonstrates complete ignorance about how supply/demand leads to price EQUILIBRIUM in a free, competitive market. I'll explain:

Let's say that consumers look for the cheapest price of commodity items, like textbooks (one is as good as another). Publisher profits get squeezed, and some even starting dropping out of the business. If they ALL drop out ... AND if a demand for textbooks remains ... the consumer will have no choice but to start paying MORE, if the DEMAND remains! If the demand disappears, of course, no-harm no-foul. That's how price equilibrium is achieved for any commodity item. In no case is the "end game" one where the demand curve (willingness to buy more at LOWER prices) completely eliminates the supply curve .... there will ALWAYS be an intersection with the supply curve (willingness to supply more at HIGHER prices).


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Angrywhopper said:


> Hmmm maybe I should go back to one of my business professors of 10 years, who was working in industry as a consultant for a few major american companies and *even the U.S. government*, that shes wrong.


oh, nevermind. It all makes sense now.


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## 2fnloud (Sep 30, 2007)

Angrywhopper said:


> Nope. It had to do with students buying textbooks online, either used or interntationally, or even new from non authorized dealers. *In those cases, the publisher and the author didn't make any money.* Eventually the authors wont write books anymore and so the publishers will close their doors. That means no more textbooks for the consumer
> 
> Obviously car audio is different than textbooks, but the same thing could happen and is happening. 2 manufacturers leaving the industry within the past couple years is proof enough.


Can you please tell me what the hell you are talking about? Unless the new or internationally books are bootleg copies the publisher and author's got their money. Because those books had to come from somewhere...THAT'S RIGHT, they where printed at the original publishing house. And as far as used books go that excuse doesn't hold any value either because there have been used book stores around for many MANY years now and you know what Stephen King and other great authors are still writing books.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

I was basing my argument from the specific professor I had, but since im no economist, I'm not going to try arguing as its not my strong point.

I believe that authors get royaltys every time a book is sold through the publisher. When an international book is bought online, the publisher and autor doesn't make any money.


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## Stage7 (Jan 5, 2010)

Whoa....I clicked on this thread to read up on audiocontrol....economics 101, and college textbooks?? 
Lol...I'm staying in this thread.


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## 2fnloud (Sep 30, 2007)

I do not understand how you are figuring that? Unless you are implying that all international books are bootleg. The books had to be made somewhere and if they are not bootlegs then they were printed at the original publishing house. So the publishing house got paid and so would the author.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

2fnloud said:


> I do not understand how you are figuring that? Unless you are implying that all international books are bootleg. The books had to be made somewhere and if they are not bootlegs then they were printed at the original publishing house. So the publishing house got paid and so would the author.


On the initial purchase they made money, but when the book is being sold to a new student every semester/quarter, the publisher and author aren't making money.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> On the initial purchase they made money, but when the book is being sold to a new student every semester/quarter, the publisher and author aren't making money.


Right. And that's what happens when you buy something (anything) used. Books, cars, speakers.

Oftentimes, people will only buy something at a used price. I know if I was forced to buy a car brand new, I would be driving a Kia or something. Volvo wasn't going to directly make money off me anyway. But buying a used Volvo helps them indirectly in a couple of ways.

1) It prevents me from giving money directly to one of their competitors (Kia, or whatever). That's generally good for Volvo.
2) One more Volvo is off the market, which in turn increases the scarcity of Volvos, which raises the price of used Volvos. That's good for Volvo because something that holds its value is a selling point. A higher used price will make it more appealing for someone to buy one new or allow them to raise their new car prices accordingly.
3) More Volvos on the street = good advertising.

So, yes, although Volvo would love to sell even more brand new Volvos, it's not like buying a used Volvo doesn't benefit them.


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## 2fnloud (Sep 30, 2007)

Angrywhopper said:


> On the initial purchase they made money, but when the book is being sold to a new student every semester/quarter, the publisher and author aren't making money.


OK you just went from internationally sold books back to used books so I revert to my first comment about used books:



2fnloud said:


> And as far as used books go that excuse doesn't hold any value either because there have been used book stores around for many MANY years now and you know what Stephen King and other great authors are still writing books.


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## 2fnloud (Sep 30, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> Right. And that's what happens when you buy something (anything) used. Books, cars, speakers.
> 
> Oftentimes, people will only buy something at a used price. I know if I was forced to buy a car brand new, I would be driving a Kia or something. Volvo wasn't going to directly make money off me anyway. But buying a used Volvo helps them indirectly in a couple of ways.
> 
> ...


Just a lil off base there because Volvo will sell some parts and repairs so any car manufacturer doesn't mind used cars being sold.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> And THIS is the reason 90% of the country will never see another IASCA, MECA event.


Are you saying that as a positive or negative. I see it mostly as a positive. 



quality_sound said:


> Simple. When you're shopping on PRICE the manufacturers are forced to find cheaper labor and use cheaper parts. If they can't move their product through retail or "other" channels they'll take a hit and then come back with something that costs less to make so the consumer can still hit the price point they want.


The sales channel has nothing to do with price. Tiffany's does a damn good mail order business. So does Neiman Marcus.


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## Redcloud (Feb 5, 2009)

quality_sound said:


> Simple. When you're shopping on PRICE the manufacturers are forced to find cheaper labor and use cheaper parts. If they can't move their product through retail or "other" channels they'll take a hit and then come back with something that costs less to make so the consumer can still hit the price point they want.
> 
> And how is it welfare for a local shop owner? No really, I'd love to hear how it's welfare. You're suggesting that shop owners and employees don't provide any type of service or knowledge.


Manufacturers are making money. Give me a break, forced to use cheaper labor and cheaper parts? By who? Not the consumer. Corporate profits and shareholders are driving down the quality of the product while trying to maintain or grow market share. Get a clue.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

Redcloud said:


> Manufacturers are making money. Give me a break, forced to use cheaper labor and cheaper parts? By who? Not the consumer. Corporate profits and shareholders are driving down the quality of the product while trying to maintain or grow market share. Get a clue.


The signs that most Americans wanting cheaper and cheaper products are very evident in car audio. For example, JL Audio had always made big profits from their Slash series amplifiers. Their new releases this year included a new entry line subwoofer and amplifiers. Hybrid Audio did the same with the new "Imagine" line. Instead of coming out with higher end, or newer more expensive products, both of these highly respected profitable companies released entry level/low budget products.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> The signs that most Americans wanting cheaper and cheaper products are very evident in car audio. For example, JL Audio had always made big profits from their Slash series amplifiers. Their new releases this year included a new entry line subwoofer and amplifiers. Hybrid Audio did the same with the new "Imagine" line. Instead of coming out with higher end, or newer more expensive products, both of these highly respected profitable companies released entry level/low budget products.


So they got rid of their high end line?


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> So they got rid of their high end line?


They did not get rid of their high end line. But they also did not release anything new and exciting and high end or expensive. They released a cheap version amplifier and a cheapie entry level woofer. Im sure manufacturers pay people big money to tell them what the market wants, and its showing..CHEAAP stuff.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> Are you saying that as a positive or negative. I see it mostly as a positive.


i see it as a negative. 



> The sales channel has nothing to do with price. Tiffany's does a damn good mail order business. So does Neiman Marcus.


i agree, if everyone follows the rules. since almost online dealers are not authorized the rules go out the window. you're not making a fair comparison.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Redcloud said:


> Manufacturers are making money. Give me a break, forced to use cheaper labor and cheaper parts? By who? Not the consumer. Corporate profits and shareholders are driving down the quality of the product while trying to maintain or grow market share. Get a clue.


you don't think the price consumers are wlling to pay affects the quality of the product? you don't see the correlation between prices dropping and most all manufacturers abandoning more expensive US parts amnd labor? seriously?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> you don't think the price consumers are wlling to pay affects the quality of the product? you don't see the correlation between prices dropping and most all manufacturers abandoning more expensive US parts amnd labor? seriously?


Where does cheap-retailer.com get its inventory? The way you talk, one would think that it's stolen from the manufacturer's warehouse. Cheap-retailer.com can't sell the product below cost and make a profit. So, the manufacturer is still controlling the price.

What you seem to be upset by isn't what's happening to the manufacturer. You seem to be upset that the car audio stores aren't able to slap on additional profits for themselves on the price tag. That has very little to do with the manufacturer's profit margin. So it's a bit of a leap to say that cutting out the middleman is leading to lower quality products. Especially when you consider that some of the highest quality car audio equipment tends to be order-only. I remember when audiotech-fischer was first making its splash in the states. How many shops had Brax amps set up on their demo boards? And where can I go demo a scanspeak d3004?

Honestly, if every car audio shop stopped selling equipment, I wouldn't care. The sky might fall, but I'm pretty sure I'd still be able to find equipment to put in my car. I'd miss the car audio circuses though.


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

whoa this is some heavy econ lol

just a personal point, 

I dont mind paying top dollar for electronics, but I refuse to pay 800 for midbass drivers, 2,000 for an amp or 1,000 components when they are made in china for pennies and doubled/tripled up on the retail side for profit reasonings

and the product not be of the HIGHEST quality (Ive had terminals break, cones bend, magnet displacements all retail, all non returnable for various reasons)

I sooo wish manufactures would come back to the states, things may cost more, but I sure would rather support the additional QA, versus whats available now

and retailers have to do a tad better pricing....If you can find it online for half the price....you sure better reassess what your "knowledge" is worth to the consumer

especially with the advent of internet knowledge

most shops I know work off the ignorance factor at one level, and the ultra wealthy on the opposite

doesnt seem like the best route towards the most sales


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> Where does cheap-retailer.com get its inventory? The way you talk, one would think that it's stolen from the manufacturer's warehouse. Cheap-retailer.com can't sell the product below cost and make a profit. So, the manufacturer is still controlling the price.


Actually they CAN sell it below cost. When a manufacturer can't move it's product eventually it will sell off the stock *below their manufacturing costs* to recoup at least some of the money and then rethink it's strategy. This is when everything gets shipped overseas. 



> What you seem to be upset by isn't what's happening to the manufacturer. You seem to be upset that the car audio stores aren't able to slap on additional profits for themselves on the price tag.


No, I want them to make a REASONABLE profit. I'm not for gouging anyone, in any industry. Always digging for the lowest price helps noone but the consumer and then only in the short term. 



> How many shops had Brax amps set up on their demo boards?


Mine did.



> And where can I go demo a scanspeak d3004?


Couldn't tell you but that's not really a fair example since Scan is really an OEM that found out they could make money by selling their raw drivers. Incidentally, where does one buy Scan's drivers??? Oh yeah, a B&M.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> Where does cheap-retailer.com get its inventory? The way you talk, one would think that it's stolen from the manufacturer's warehouse. Cheap-retailer.com can't sell the product below cost and make a profit. So, the manufacturer is still controlling the price.
> 
> What you seem to be upset by isn't what's happening to the manufacturer. You seem to be upset that the car audio stores aren't able to slap on additional profits for themselves on the price tag. That has very little to do with the manufacturer's profit margin. So it's a bit of a leap to say that cutting out the middleman is leading to lower quality products. Especially when you consider that some of the highest quality car audio equipment tends to be order-only. I remember when audiotech-fischer was first making its splash in the states. How many shops had Brax amps set up on their demo boards? And where can I go demo a scanspeak d3004?
> 
> Honestly, *if every car audio shop stopped selling equipment, I wouldn't care.* The sky might fall, but I'm pretty sure I'd still be able to find equipment to put in my car. I'd miss the car audio circuses though.


I'll tell you right now that if all specialty car audio stores closed, car audio would cease to exist. All the big box stores cannot compare to the type of sales and installs the specialty shops do, same with internet retailers.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> Actually they CAN sell it below cost. When a manufacturer can't move it's product eventually it will sell off the stock *below their manufacturing costs* to recoup at least some of the money and then rethink it's strategy. This is when everything gets shipped overseas.


This is not a viable business strategy. Even when you take into account overstock and the like, ON AVERAGE they have to sell above cost. Otherwise, they don't turn a profit. And "on average" is what's important to the manufacturer. They don't really care what happens after they unload the product to the merchant (ok, they do, but for the sake of this discussion they don't...).

Anyway, this gets back to my original point -- merchants don't dictate prices. Manufacturers do. Consumers are the feedback mechanism.



> No, I want them to make a REASONABLE profit. I'm not for gouging anyone, in any industry. Always digging for the lowest price helps noone but the consumer and then only in the short term.


Of course it helps the consumer. If you're not a car audio shop owner, then you're a consumer. So, yes, I will concede that online purchases are bad for shop owners. My point has been what's best for the consumer, not shop owners. Your "short term" comment doesn't make any sense though. You have no basis for that prediction.



> Mine did.


Cool. The point was that there weren't many. I was demonstrating that high quality can, and in fact DOES, exist when a sizable chunk of the demographic is mail-order customers. You seem to have this preconceived notion that the only people buying online are the people buying Rockwood amplifiers.



> Couldn't tell you but that's not really a fair example since Scan is really an OEM that found out they could make money by selling their raw drivers. Incidentally, where does one buy Scan's drivers??? Oh yeah, a B&M.


Yeah, that does online sales for the lowest price point for the product. If that B&M can beat everybody else's prices, why can't car audio shops? [The answer's pretty simple, and it has to do with the "fluff" that people in this thread have been talking about]


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> I'll tell you right now that if all specialty car audio stores closed, car audio would cease to exist. All the big box stores cannot compare to the type of sales and installs the specialty shops do, same with internet retailers.


No, sellers don't determine when there's a market for something. Buyers do. As long as there's a demand for a product, that product will exist. This is the very basis for the concept of entrepeneurship. The only way your scenario would be true is if car audio shops and car audio shops alone were creating a demand, and we know that that's not even close to true.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> No, sellers don't determine when there's a market for something. Buyers do. As long as there's a demand for a product, that product will exist. This is the very basis for the concept of entrepeneurship. The only way your scenario would be true is if car audio shops and car audio shops alone were creating a demand, and we know that that's not even close to true.


I'm saying that if every single car audio speciality shop closed, so will the manufacturers soon after. Although you and the members on this board might be able to go online and build a system and order it, the average customer will not (they are the majority). They come to us to get educated and fulfill their car audio needs.

Do you really think that the 16 year old girl that was hired 2 weeks ago at Best Buy or Fry's could sell a $1100 woofer or a $2000 set of components?:laugh:

How about somone wanting to buy a $1000 set of Focal components, but wants to hear them before spending his hard earned money. Well, the internet cannot addition them for him. I would say the majority would decide against spending that kind of money without hearing them first, I know I would if I was the customer.

Car Audio is a unique industry. For most people they like the human interaction, just somone they can bring their car too to check out and help them build. Your not buying a pair of shoes or a T shirt or a dvd.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

What a perfect way to prove my point..a company doing exactly what I said in my post.

"The decision to part ways marks a strategic shift in direction for the Rockford Fosgate brand and allows us to focus even more directly on building our lead in the premium mobile audio category. Our strategy for 2010 and beyond is to focus on growing our brands in specialty channels and regional A/V retailers. We will continue to invest in technology, developing high-end OEM solutions and expanding our reach with new product categories." 

RF sold products in Best Buy for 10 years. It now will end its relationship because it knows that if they want to sell high end stuff, they can only do it through the specialty car audio stores.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> I'm saying that if every single car audio speciality shop closed, so will the manufacturers soon after.


<sigh> No, they won't. And I already explained why.

Let me put it a different way. If Obama tomorrow said that car audio shops had to close down (including Best Buy and whoever else), and you could only buy car audio equipment online, what would happen? The manufacturers would take a major hit, because most people buying equipment aren't capable or interested in installing it themselves. _But thousands are_. So who supplies those thousands with equipment? According to you, nobody. According to you, those people would either no longer want to upgrade their stock car audio (ridiculous), or they would have to build their own equipment somehow (unlikely). So obviously there's a MARKET even in the absence of car audio shops. Wouldn't it be foolish, then, for every single manufacturer in the world to no longer serve that market? Thousands of people with cash in their hands, and you think nobody would want to take their money. :laugh:



> Car Audio is a unique industry.


It really isn't. Consumer electronics is consumer electronics. The level of difficulty of installation is slightly higher than, say, setting up your new computer system, but not outrageously so. It's probably about on par with installing a programmable thermostat.



> For most people they like the human interaction, just somone they can bring their car too to check out and help them build. Your not buying a pair of shoes or a T shirt or a dvd.


Well, apparently there are lots of people who don't like that human interaction enough to spend the extra money, otherwise you wouldn't be complaining about online retailers. You're not recognizing the reality of the situation here. You're overvaluing the service you're providing. And the proof is in the pudding.



> What a perfect way to prove my point..a company doing exactly what I said in my post.
> 
> "The decision to part ways marks a strategic shift in direction for the Rockford Fosgate brand and allows us to focus even more directly on building our lead in the premium mobile audio category. Our strategy for 2010 and beyond is to focus on growing our brands in specialty channels and regional A/V retailers. We will continue to invest in technology, developing high-end OEM solutions and expanding our reach with new product categories."
> 
> RF sold products in Best Buy for 10 years. It now will end its relationship because it knows that if they want to sell high end stuff, they can only do it through the specialty car audio stores.


McIntosh and Eclipse used to sell at Tweeter. Obviously, a company can do both if it chooses to.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

MarkZ, you truly believe that all car audio manufacturers will contine to operate and be profitable with the only merchants being online sellers? Thats false and you know it

Yes, there are thousands like you that can build their own system and buy online, and install it properly. Well guess what, most if not all manufacturers cannot survive in today's market with thousands of buyers. They need MILLIONS.

Btw, I enjoy debating with you, as this is only for fun. I do try to be as objective as possible and to see both sides of the story, not just my own.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Here is a little story

Once upon a time company A decided to start making products overseas to increase market share and make more profits.
company A sells a product similar in quality to company B C D but at a fraction of the price.

Company B C D now have to do the same in order to stay competitive with company A.

Consumer is happy to pay less.

Later, everyone offers cheaper products with similar quality.

Eventually the internet comes along and the consumer has access to it and sees 2 prices for the same productne at a shop and one online. Any one with half a brain wants to pay the lower price for the product.

End of story.

BTW some companies sell exclusively from the internet don't they? ED...


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> MarkZ, you truly believe that all car audio manufacturers will contine to operate and be profitable with the only merchants being online sellers? Thats false and you know it


Of course I know it. But I never said that all car audio manufacturers would continue to operate and be profitable.

You have this "all or none" thing going on. To you, the only potential outcomes are that ALL manufacturers will continue to exist or ALL manufacturers would cease to exist. There's no middle ground with you. Which is unfortunate, because the middle ground is the only reasonable prediction.



> Yes, there are thousands like you that can build their own system and buy online, and install it properly. Well guess what, most if not all manufacturers cannot survive in today's market with thousands of buyers. They need MILLIONS.


How many Brax amps do you think are sold each year? Millions? What about lesser known brands? How many 12v DCX2496 power supplies do you think envision electronics sells each year? So I guess those power supplies don't really exist? 

The fact is -- where there's a market, there's a product. Would there be fewer products to choose from if car audio shops went out of style? Maybe. Would the prices go up? Possibly. Would "car audio cease to exist"? Hahaha that's something only a shop owner would say. 

Look, I don't doubt that car audio would look very different if car audio shops all close down. We get a glimpse of what it would look like by seeing the changes that have occurred in the past 15-20 years. I'm sure you agree that the industry is quite a bit different now. In some good ways and in some bad ways. The original point of contention was whether or not consumers would be harmed in the long run if buying trends continued towards internet sales and DIY installation. I see no evidence that it's a bad thing. Prices have generally gone down, technological innovation is still alive and well, entrepeneurship seems better to me than it used to be, and CHOICE in product has increase exponentially. And this has all come alongside increasing internet sales.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> The signs that most Americans wanting cheaper and cheaper products are very evident in car audio. For example, JL Audio had always made big profits from their Slash series amplifiers. Their new releases this year included a new entry line subwoofer and amplifiers. Hybrid Audio did the same with the new "Imagine" line. Instead of coming out with higher end, or newer more expensive products, both of these highly respected profitable companies released entry level/low budget products.


There are some obvious alternate explanations for that, at least in the case of JL Audio. (I consider all of Hybrid's product "low end" because the performance is uncorrelated to the price, and they do not have the performance of a truly "high end" product, so I won't discuss them.) 

First, there's a recession. Getting less expensive stuff out there in down times is smart business, and Jello tends to be one of the smarter firms in this market generally.

Second, their "high end" stuff is largely pretty new. The HD amps came out last year, right? Higher end stuff generally has a longer product lifecycle. When did the Slash amps come out? 2002? I know I bought a 300/4 in 2004, and they weren't brand new. Except for a meaningless color change and a quick running change to more durable screws for the terminals, how much have they changed in 8-9 years? Also, they just spent a lot of engineering resources on their thin subs. (Admittedly, I _would_ like to see a W7 Mk. II line with copper sleeved pole-pieces for lower inductance and thus higher performance, and neo motors for lower weight.)

Third, your conception of what's "high end" is pretty warped. In my mind, a compact 6x75 watt Class D amp with a full-featured crossover built in for 600 bucks MSRP (their forthcoming XD 600/6) is a pretty damn "high end" product. Both in specification and in cost. Amps are commodity parts, so spending more than that is just deranged.



quality_sound said:


> i agree, if everyone follows the rules. since almost online dealers are not authorized the rules go out the window. you're not making a fair comparison.


This "authorized" stuff is such ********. The only question of note should be whether the reseller is _legitimately_ acquiring the goods, i.e. purchasing them from someone with legal title to them. Obviously, stolen or counterfeit goods are a separate issue, but there's no reason to give two ****s whether a seller is "authorized" or not.

Let me tell you, if I ever buy anything online and it breaks but the manufacturer won't take responsibility for it, there will be a precedent-setting court case and they will be screwed.



Angrywhopper said:


> I'm saying that if every single car audio speciality shop closed, so will the manufacturers soon after.


Doubtful. For one thing, their are fora such as this one where people can share knowledge of techniques and product, and that will spur sales of legitimately better stuff.

But for the high-end pretenders, companies like HAT, Focal, and Dynaudio, yeah, no shops probably will be the death of 'em.



Angrywhopper said:


> How about somone wanting to buy a $1000 set of Focal components, but wants to hear them before spending his hard earned money.


If one is willing to spend a grand on just a pair of overpriced and underperforming drive units, then that person probably also has the disposable income and time to take a trip to the manufacturer or distributor and get personal attention from their staff, including an audition.



Angrywhopper said:


> Car Audio is a unique industry. For most people they like the human interaction, just somone they can bring their car too to check out and help them build. Your not buying a pair of shoes or a T shirt or a dvd.


A pair of shoes is a far more personal purchase than, say, an amp. Shoes can be handcrafted works of genius. An amp is just a commodity part.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> This is not a viable business strategy. Even when you take into account overstock and the like, ON AVERAGE they have to sell above cost. Otherwise, they don't turn a profit. And "on average" is what's important to the manufacturer. They don't really care what happens after they unload the product to the merchant (ok, they do, but for the sake of this discussion they don't...).


Who said anything about it being a profitable strategy? I'm showing how buying on price alone as well as snubbing authorized B&Ms drives product quality down. 



> Anyway, this gets back to my original point -- merchants don't dictate prices. Manufacturers do. Consumers are the feedback mechanism.


And what happens when comsumers don't buy? Oh yeah, everything I just said. Manufacturers dump old stock and then make something cheaper. This way they can stay profitable AND the comsumer gets the price point they want. 



> Of course it helps the consumer. If you're not a car audio shop owner, then you're a consumer. So, yes, I will concede that online purchases are bad for shop owners. My point has been what's best for the consumer, not shop owners. Your "short term" comment doesn't make any sense though. You have no basis for that prediction.


It's not a prediction, it's fact. In the short term the buyer gets those higher quality goods at a lower price because the manufacturers dumped them. In the next go round quality WILL go down ultimately screwing the consumer and then we get threads asking why old school **** was better. simple, because people would pay for it. 



> Cool. The point was that there weren't many. I was demonstrating that high quality can, and in fact DOES, exist when a sizable chunk of the demographic is mail-order customers. You seem to have this preconceived notion that the only people buying online are the people buying Rockwood amplifiers.


You have no idea what my preconceptions are. Brax didn't have many dealers in the first place so again, bad comparison. You can't fault dealers for brax's territory protection policies. 
The difference is car audio manufacturers aren't authorizing mail-order sales. If they did they could have the same kind of control over pricing that the DIY makers do with the gear that's sold mail-order. 



> Yeah, that does online sales for the lowest price point for the product. If that B&M can beat everybody else's prices, why can't car audio shops? [The answer's pretty simple, and it has to do with the "fluff" that people in this thread have been talking about]



Again, different business model. You really have no idea how little markup is on equipment do you? I'll admit, when I was in speakers and accessories were the money makers. Most speakers were around 50 points and accessories were around 80 points. HUs and amps however were 30-35 points. Now take those margins and try to keep your B&M open while also selling it for the same prices you see online (typically 5-10 points) and you'll see it's not going to happen, especially if you're losing money tying up your bay with gear Joe Blow brought in from an online purchase.

Is it sinking in yet?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> How many Brax amps do you think are sold each year? Millions? What about lesser known brands? How many 12v DCX2496 power supplies do you think envision electronics sells each year? So I guess those power supplies don't really exist?



How many Brax customers come in and tell their dealer they can get it $600 less online? How many people call envision and say they can get it for less from another dealer?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> This "authorized" stuff is such ********. The only question of note should be whether the reseller is _legitimately_ acquiring the goods, i.e. purchasing them from someone with legal title to them. Obviously, stolen or counterfeit goods are a separate issue, but there's no reason to give two ****s whether a seller is "authorized" or not.


Whether you want to believe it or not, when a dealer is signed there are rules they must follow. If you're gettign your goods trans-shipped to you you don't have these rules to follow. You might think it's bs but that doesn't make you right. 



> Let me tell you, if I ever buy anything online and it breaks but the manufacturer won't take responsibility for it, there will be a precedent-setting court case and they will be screwed.


Yeah ok. Let me know how that works out for you.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> Who said anything about it being a profitable strategy? I'm showing how buying on price alone as well as snubbing authorized B&Ms drives product quality down.


It has to be a profitable strategy, otherwise it would only exist in the land of fairy tales. Cheap-product.com isn't like amazon, where it can exist in the red for ten years before becoming profitable. So I pointed out that, although some deals can operate below cost, when you consider the entire merchandise that a manufacturer is putting out, the AVERAGE cannot. Otherwise, either the manu is fuct or the merchant is fuct.



> And what happens when comsumers don't buy? Oh yeah, everything I just said. Manufacturers dump old stock and then make something cheaper. This way they can stay profitable AND the comsumer gets the price point they want.


You mean consumers dictate the market? Whoever would've thunk it! 

So what you're saying (conceding), then, is if consumers don't want a product, then it will go away, right? So why are you so concerned about rescuing product that nobody wants? If consumers don't want it, then it NEEDS to go away.



> It's not a prediction, it's fact. In the short term the buyer gets those higher quality goods at a lower price because the manufacturers dumped them. In the next go round quality WILL go down ultimately screwing the consumer and then we get threads asking why old school **** was better. simple, because people would pay for it.


That's a fact? I'll have what you're having.

Answer me this: if people WANT "high end" stuff (whatever it may be), is it your opinion that it will not exist for them to buy? If so, wouldn't it be a wise entrepeneurial move to step into the arena and build and sell that product?

Economics, people.



> You have no idea what my preconceptions are. Brax didn't have many dealers in the first place so again, bad comparison. You can't fault dealers for brax's territory protection policies.
> The difference is car audio manufacturers aren't authorizing mail-order sales. If they did they could have the same kind of control over pricing that the DIY makers do with the gear that's sold mail-order.


Unless you can demonstrate theft, then they have to get their stock from somewhere and pay the going rate for it. For the case of overstock, the going rate may be lower than the cost when the product first came out. But, like I already explained, the AVERAGE cost is dictated by the manufacturer. A manufacturer can't exist for very long when their entire inventory ends up being sold by a second party as overstock. That second party won't buy that inventory anymore.



> Is it sinking in yet?


You tell me. I may have to pass you off to your local community college at this point, because your understanding of economics is virtually non-existent. I'm not really sure I can continue to have these sorts of discussions with you two until you can understand at least the basics. Market forces and prices (feedback) seem to be foreign concepts to both of you.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> How many Brax customers come in and tell their dealer they can get it $600 less online? How many people call envision and say they can get it for less from another dealer?


Um...not many? I don't know. Your questions aren't relevant.

I was demonstrating that there EXISTS several companies out there that offer a product that appeals to only a few (ie. not "millions") consumers. He claimed they could not exist without the aid of car audio shops. Oops. Turns out he was wrong.

So here we are. I'm talking about the present. What IS. What we KNOW as fact. The reality around us. You guys are talking about hypotheticals, speculation, and predictions.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> Whether you want to believe it or not, when a dealer is signed there are rules they must follow. If you're gettign your goods trans-shipped to you you don't have these rules to follow. You might think it's bs but that doesn't make you right.


What the _dealer_ must follow is absolutely irrelevant to the _consumer._ If a company wants, they can sue the _dealer_ for breach of contract. The consumer, so long as an item was legitimately purchased, does not and should not care. And for these purposes, "legitimately purchased" has nothing to do with the terms the marketer/manufacturer set for the dealer, but rather just basically means stolen vs. legitimate title.

The _consumer_ has no privity of contract with the manufacturer for the sale of an item, assuming it wasn't a direct or consignment sale, but s/he does have privity of contract with the manufacturer as to the warranty.



quality_sound said:


> Yeah ok. Let me know how that works out for you.


Let's just say that I know the law better than you do, OK?


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

*MarkZ*, although you might like to think that the world works exactly as it says in your Econ 101 book, its not that black and white...theres a big shade of grey!!  Most, if not all manufacturers will close if every single car audio shop and big box store shut down. Sure, there might be 1 or 2 sellers left in the market, but is that really good for the consumer? I dont think so. Would CES still offer a big 12v showing? Most likley not. Will we continue to see what made car audio so fun to begin with with crazy installs and crazy fiberglassing work? Most likely not. You might still be able to go online and choose between 2 companies to buy from, but the industry that we love will virtually die out.

*DS-21*.. So even though you know a manufacturers policy's on its products and warranties, you would still knowingly buy something that goes against them and then expect to recieve the warranty or you would sue? :lol: Yep, typical ol American way..just sue everyone you can and put the blame on somone else. Its not your fault right, it has to be somone else's.:laugh:


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> *MarkZ*, although you might like to think that the world works exactly as it says in your Econ 101 book, its not that black and white...theres a big shade of grey!!


That's in there too. 



> Most, if not all manufacturers will close if every single car audio shop and big box store shut down.


I'm sure you feel that way. Unfortunately for you, your opinion isn't grounded in reality or science. I don't think you've been able to overcome your bias in this thread. And that's a real *****.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> *DS-21*.. So even though you know a manufacturers policy's on its products and warranties, you would still knowingly buy something that goes against them and then expect to recieve the warranty or you would sue? :lol: Yep, typical ol American way..just sue everyone you can and put the blame on somone else. Its not your fault right, it has to be somone else's.:laugh:


Damn ****ing straight! And I would win, and if they appealed and wanted to make a big deal out of it, I would win on the appellate level, and the resulting case would make the new edition of every new contracts casebook. 

A manufacturer's or marketer's distribution policies *are neither valid to or enforceable against end-users.* The mfg/mktr only has privity of contract as to those policies with the parties to whom they originally sell goods. After that, the goods are in "the stream of commerce." That is basic American capitalism. However, the mfg/mktr has privity of contract as to the warranty with end users who purchase their goods that have entered the stream of commerce. A less sophisticated person may not realize that doing so protects consumers and firms.

And yes, enforcement of one's rights and defense of capitalism *is* the American way. At least, it's the way of the America I care about.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

DS-21 said:


> Damn ****ing straight! And I would win, and if they appealed and wanted to make a big deal out of it, I would win on the appellate level, and the resulting case would make the new edition of every new contracts casebook.
> 
> A manufacturer's or marketer's distribution policies *are neither valid to or enforceable against end-users.* The mfg/mktr only has privity of contract as to those policies with the parties to whom they originally sell goods. After that, the goods are in "the stream of commerce." That is basic American capitalism. However, the mfg/mktr has privity of contract as to the warranty with end users who purchase their goods that have entered the stream of commerce. A less sophisticated person may not realize that doing so protects consumers and firms.
> 
> And yes, enforcement of one's rights and defense of capitalism *is* the American way. At least, it's the way of the America I care about.


How does the manufacturer know that you bought the product legitely? How do they know its a original, and not a fake? How about if the seriel number is defaced? Manufacturers have every right to protect themselves against all of these. 

My Alpine rep once told me a story about someone who bought a headunit and it was defective, but sent it in to get it reparied without buying authorized. I forget exactly what the story was, but i'll ask him again and report back. I do remember that the customer sued, and Alpine won.

EDIT* I just reread what you said, and what does distribution policy have to do with buying authorized. Alpine's warranty policy has to do directly with the end consumer. They are telling you ahead of time, that if you don't buy authorized, you get no warranty. I also know that in our capatlisitic society, businesses have the right to put in policys that are fair in protecting themselves and their assets. Every business has the right to refuse service if they feel is necessary.

Maybe this example will illistrate what I mean. You walk up to a sandwhich shop that says NO SHOES/SHIRT, NO service on the window. You proceed to enter and try to order (without shoes on), but they refuse service. Do you feel that you have the right to sue them?


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> How about if the seriel number is defaced? Manufacturers have every right to protect themselves against all of these.


If a serial number is defaced, then the product had been opened and is therefore not "new." If the merchant does not reveal that fact to the buyer prior to purchase, the operative word is "fraud."



Angrywhopper said:


> EDIT* I just reread what you said, and what does distribution policy have to do with buying authorized.


"Authorized" is a construct of distribution policy. A company has every right to police their distributors vigorously, and go after their distributors when they act in breach of the distribution contract. Likewise, if a company wants to act to preserve their price/market position by buying back items from insolvent distributors, etc., they are well within their rights do to so. (JL did that with Tweeter when Tweeter went under.) But once an unopened item has entered the stream of commerce, until an end user takes title to it, it is a new item.

And if a company is sending different stuff (defective units or whatever) into a secondary distribution network without marking them clearly as such, then they can and should get hammered with warranty claims for such items that fail or fail to meet published specifications within a reasonable tolerance. 



Angrywhopper said:


> Maybe this example will illistrate what I mean. You walk up to a sandwhich shop that says NO SHOES/SHIRT, NO service on the window. You proceed to enter and try to order (without shoes on), but they refuse service. Do you feel that you have the right to sue them?


Your example is trivial to distinguish from a consumer buying a new, unopened piece of car audio kit (or home audio kit, or computer, or any other similar nonperishable good) from a merchant, because no purchase had been made. If, however, you buy a sandwich from that shop and get food poisoning from the sandwich, they cannot refuse your claim on the grounds that you were violating their dress code by not wearing a shirt when you bought the sandwich. It's just not relevant.


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## Wonway (Jun 9, 2009)

Give it up 510M3.

:dead_horse:


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> Let's just say that I know the law better than you do, OK?


I knwo you're a lawyer. My point was that the lawsuit you're proposing has been tried, and to my knowledge has NEVER been ruled in the consumers favor. not once. So like I said, give it a go. 



MarkZ said:


> I don't think you've been able to overcome your bias in this thread. And that's a real *****.


Nor you yours. 



DS-21 said:


> If a serial number is defaced, then the product had been opened and is therefore not "new."


Serial numbers are usually on the ouside of the unit with a few makers putting them on the inside as well. How does defacing a serial number prove a unit was opened? Unless it has a serial number on the inside, and again, most don't, it doesn't.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> Serial numbers are usually on the ouside of the unit with a few makers putting them on the inside as well. How does defacing a serial number prove a unit was opened? Unless it has a serial number on the inside, and again, most don't, it doesn't.


Last I checked, serial numbers were always on the inside, which is to say _on the product_ and not just on the packaging containing said product. If someone has defaced a serial number on a product, ipso facto the packaging must have been opened and the product tampered with. That act means the product is no longer properly a "new" item in the stream of commerce.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> Nor you yours.


Everyone here who owns a car audio shop, raise your hand.

[Mine is notably by my side. Where's yours?]


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## redtopher (Feb 1, 2010)

ok so i knw this is someone elses thread but idk how to start my own. i having major issues with my jensen 10 subs..i have a 95 camery le. I have 2 subs bridged to a 500 alpine mono amp. they will play and then just randomly stop. There a pop and then they just stop. I have to turn my whole system on and off agian for it to even hit. Ive takn by bestbuy were i had it installed and they dnt knw eather. I knw their cheap subs but i hvnt blown or fried them to my knowledge. If anyone has any ideas i would be very greatfull. iVe ruled out all possibilites of wire damage or lose connection..


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## 2fnloud (Sep 30, 2007)

kamguy said:


> jackson area. PM me if u like.



You are not accepting PM's so now what?


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

DS-21 if you would and since you know you'd win go buy some memphis product from ebay or someone selling it online.

Internet Sales Policy - Memphis Car Audio

they are VERY VERY STRICT when it comes to internet sales. i've seen them turn down repairs and service just because it was bought online.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> Last I checked, serial numbers were always on the inside, which is to say _on the product_ and not just on the packaging containing said product. If someone has defaced a serial number on a product, ipso facto the packaging must have been opened and the product tampered with. That act means the product is no longer properly a "new" item in the stream of commerce.


Lets try se common sense here. Are you going to send a new, inopened piece of equipment back for a warranty repair? No, so the serial number on the box is irrelvant. The manufacturer cares about the one on the unit, which is also the one I'm talking about, and it's on the _outside_ of the unit. 



MarkZ said:


> Everyone here who owns a car audio shop, raise your hand.
> 
> [Mine is notably by my side. Where's yours?]


Down as well. I've never owned a shop. I've managed one, but never owned one. I'd have thought my
location and signature would have answered this question for you though.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> Down as well. I've never owned a shop. I've managed one, but never owned one. I'd have thought my
> location and signature would have answered this question for you though.


Sorry, I don't keep track of where you are. I made my point though. There's reason for you to be biased. I have no reason to be biased. So I don't really understand where you think this source of bias comes from.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

You have no knowledgfe of the retail/manufacturer side so you're even more biased than I am. Even having been in retail I am still a consumer. As a consumer only with no retail experience you don't have anything to balance the consumer experience with.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

I always find arguments like these amusing. IMO, it boils down to this. If the business cannot sustain itself in a changing marketplace, it does not deserve to exist. Sounds harsh? It is. You can ***** and moan all you want, but the power belongs in the consumers hands. Your business cant stay afloat in that environment? You're obviously doing something wrong. 

A company exists to provide services that a consumer deems valuable. The consumer does not exist to pad a companies P&L and put dinner on the table for shareholders. Quality is what you get out versus what you put out.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

BTW you could use the same weakass argument to explain how used equipment sales are _destroying the industry_.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> You have no knowledgfe of the retail/manufacturer side so you're even more biased than I am.


Um...no. That's not bias. That would be ignorance. Which is ironic, considering you don't know what the word "bias" means. 

And I've demonstrated more knowledge than you of the retail/manufacture end of things in this thread. Your experience means squat, because you don't possess even a basic understanding of economics. And you're biased, which doesn't help things.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Sex Cells said:


> I always find arguments like these amusing. IMO, it boils down to this. If the business cannot sustain itself in a changing marketplace, it does not deserve to exist. Sounds harsh? It is. You can ***** and moan all you want, but the power belongs in the consumers hands. Your business cant stay afloat in that environment? You're obviously doing something wrong.
> 
> A company exists to provide services that a consumer deems valuable. The consumer does not exist to pad a companies P&L and put dinner on the table for shareholders. Quality is what you get out versus what you put out.


No doubt, and I agree that the industry as a whole has NOT embraced the internet as a viable retail stream. We can argue about internet dealers vs. B&Ms till we're blue in the face but the fact of the matter is almost no manufacturers authorize online sales. Because you have to maintain a storefront to peddle their wares you're going to have overhead which had to be paid somehow. Selling product at a price that matches gray-market goods will quickly put a shop out of business. Couple that with consumers that value nothing except the selling price (ignoring all the intangibles that a good shop brings to the table) and the manufacturers end up with a lot of their gear sitting or worse being returned by retailers when they close their doors. They don't want to go out of business either so they whore out their gear for manufacturing costs, or less, and then come back with product that costs them less to make. This reduction of manufacturing costs comes from labor costs (overseas manufacturing) and less expensive parts, usually of lower quality. Then we end up with thread about how old school gear was better. 

No one's saying the power ISN'T in the consumers' hands. I've agreed with that all along. I'm saying it's the consumers' practice of buying on price alone that is driving the quality of goods down.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> Um...no. That's not bias. That would be ignorance. Which is ironic, considering you don't know what the word "bias" means.
> 
> And I've demonstrated more knowledge than you of the retail/manufacture end of things in this thread. Your experience means squat, because you don't possess even a basic understanding of economics. And you're biased, which doesn't help things.


Oh for ****'s sake. I didn't think I had to spell it out for you. Your ignorance was impled. 

So first hand experience means nothing? Really? Wow. Just, wow. You only think you've demonstrated knowledge of retail/economics. Every other person in retail or manufacturing that's replied in this thread has agreed with me. Are we all seeing a different reality?

The bias argument is tired. I haven't been in the industry in almost a decade. I have no interest in any shops or manufacturers and don't stand to gain or lose anything if the industy falls flat on its face or if it sees the best period in its history.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> Oh for ****'s sake. I didn't think I had to spell it out for you. Your ignorance was impled.
> 
> So first hand experience means nothing? Really? Wow. Just, wow.


Experience means nothing if you don't know what you're looking at. And, like I said, your understanding of the market forces at play here is about on par with a 3rd grader's. Your response to Sex Cells is a perfect example of that. You don't know what the market is, or what a dynamic market does, and how price is a feedback mechanism for all of it. It's just not something that you comprehend no matter how many times it's explained to you.

So, no, your experience doesn't matter, because you never stepped out of your little box. If you had, presumably you'd have learned how the market works.



> You only think you've demonstrated knowledge of retail/economics. Every other person in retail or manufacturing that's replied in this thread has agreed with me. Are we all seeing a different reality?


You mean all (one) of the other people? 

Have you noticed that the only people on your side of the fence are the people who have or had a financial stake in the matter? This goes back to the whole "bias" thing...



> The bias argument is tired.


I'll say.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I DO understand that price is the feedback. No one wants to pay more for something than it's worth. You're failing to see that no matter WHAT something sells for, if the consumers constantly demand lower and lower pricing then it's going to affect the quality of the goods offered. Why is that so hard to see? That is all I've been saying this whole time.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> I DO understand that price is the feedback. You're failing to see that no matter WHAT something sells for, if the consumers constantly demand lower and lower pricing then it's going to affect the quality of the goods offered. Why is that so hard to see?


Why is it so hard for you to see that as long as there exists a MARKET for a "high end" product, then "high end" products will exist?

[The above does not necessarily apply to industries where there's a high barrier to entry or overwhelming scarcity... which consumer electronics is not.]


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> No doubt, and I agree that the industry as a whole has NOT embraced the internet as a viable retail stream. We can argue about internet dealers vs. B&Ms till we're blue in the face but the fact of the matter is almost no manufacturers authorize online sales. Because you have to maintain a storefront to peddle their wares you're going to have overhead which had to be paid somehow. Selling product at a price that matches gray-market goods will quickly put a shop out of business. Couple that with consumers that value nothing except the selling price (ignoring all the intangibles that a good shop brings to the table) and the manufacturers end up with a lot of their gear sitting or worse being returned by retailers when they close their doors. They don't want to go out of business either so they whore out their gear for manufacturing costs, or less, and then come back with product that costs them less to make. This reduction of manufacturing costs comes from labor costs (overseas manufacturing) and less expensive parts, usually of lower quality. Then we end up with thread about how old school gear was better.
> 
> No one's saying the power ISN'T in the consumers' hands. I've agreed with that all along. I'm saying it's the consumers' practice of buying on price alone that is driving the quality of goods down.


I see where you're coming from, but you're operating on this doomsday theory assuming that the cycle of reducing costs and margin exists due solely to internet competition and that its causing companies to release lower and lower grade product. Sure some companies do, but generally someone else fills the void, and so on.

Manufacturers are constantly trying to lower costs and a lot of the time its to pass those savings on. Most business, generally speaking, is the same. You sell a lot for a low price. Or a little for a high price. Bringing a high end product to a lower price-point is a good way to increase volume and compensate for lost margin. It's an ongoing process in most industries. Hell, computers and televisions have only gotten better.

I don't subscribe to the notion that vendors selling product for a lower price killing the industry, because it sure hasn't yet. Taking it in a different direction? Certainly. 

I also believe that one of the largest dilemmas the industry is the competition with OEs for market share (i realize im wording this poorly, but you get it). Due to the quality of sound you can get out of a vehicle stock, or as an option -- for a reasonable price. Not to mention, its one less salesmen you have to deal with.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

Please don't mistake my rebuttal as hostility.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> Why is it so hard for you to see that as long as there exists a MARKET for a "high end" product, then "high end" products will exist?
> 
> [The above does not necessarily apply to industries where there's a high barrier to entry or overwhelming scarcity... which consumer electronics is not.]


It's easy to underestimate the markets enthusiasm to make a buck. 

You know, you can get a damn fine set of prescription glasses online for under 50 bucks. But the 700 dollar sets are still selling just fine. Likewise you can easily get a pair of knock off Guccis for 5 bucks. They work just as well. But the real things are still flying off the shelf, and they don't even offer extra features.

The high end market is going to be juuuust fine.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

I didn't read the whole thread, but all I can say about it: AudioControl still makes good stuff and I can't see why it would be 'outdated'.
They have a selection of digital products and according to the info they give on their site, those products don't have the possibilities of a Pioneer DEQ-P99, Alpine h701, clarion hxd2...
But they still have a lot of analog products, something a lot of other manufacturers gave up in favor for dsp's, but those analog products can still be very usefull today.

People who don't want to spend their money on dsp's with a gazillion of features they don't need, can still choose between the various analog AudioControl products. Other manufacturers let you choose between headunits with some limited features on board and expensive dsp's with nothing in between.

In my own install, I use analog processors, an AudioControl 4XS for crossover-duty and a Phoenix Gold EQ230 equalizer. I bought the PG eq because I could get it cheap and AudioControl EQT's don't show up everyday and still cost a lot of money, otherwise I would have gone with those...

Xenia uses a Clarion HX-D2 headunit for all major processing in her campervan, but she also uses an AudioControl ESP-3 to create a center channel, so she wouldn't need to use that much TA and she'll also put an active install in the back of her van with an AudioControl 4XS and an analog equalizer (we have an AudioControl EQX and Phoenix Gold EQ215 laying around that are for sale, so we'll use the one that's left after there's one sold).

Newer ain't always better!

greetings,
Isabelle


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

Sex Cells said:


> It's easy to underestimate the markets enthusiasm to make a buck.
> 
> You know, you can get a damn fine set of prescription glasses online for under 50 bucks. But the 700 dollar sets are still selling just fine. Likewise you can easily get a pair of knock off Guccis for 5 bucks. They work just as well. But the real things are still flying off the shelf, and they don't even offer extra features.
> 
> The high end market is going to be juuuust fine.


Buying fake Gucci glasses instead of the real ones is not a good analogy for what were discussing. We are talking about people being able to buy the same original product online for 2% above cost whereas it would be 40% above cost in a retail store.

What you and Mark don't understand is that if retail indy stores went out of business, Focal, Morel and many other high end expensive brands go down with them. We specialists are the one's that are able to sell $2,000 components and install them properly. People like to see, hear, and touch a woofer that costs $1000 or a amplifier that is $1500. The internet cannot provide that for them. Most would then be reluctent to spend their hard earned money without being assured their getting what they want. 
Will $50 Pioneer speakers and $100 decks still be around? Sure, but nothing exciting or fun that made us fall in love with car audio will be around anymore.

Remember, although you diyma members are DIY people and have experience with car audio, the average person does not. You might feel comfortable building a complete system and buying it online and tearing up your car, but the average(most) people do not nor are willing to tear up their car to do it. Plus, many don't even have the time.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> What you and Mark don't understand is that if retail indy stores went out of business, Focal, Morel and many other high end expensive brands go down with them.


True or false: If retail stores went out of business, people would no longer like Focal and Morel (which Morel?).

Would those manufacturers have to do things differently? Some of them, yeah. Would their sales go down? Probably. Would they stop making these products? Not as long as there's a demand.

You seem to think that the demand comes from YOU. I think it's because you're used to the numbskulls that come into your shop and don't know their asses from their elbows. And that's what you think the "high end" car audio marketplace _in its entirety_ is. Granted, it's a hefty portion, but it's not even close to being the entire market.

Not only are your predictions wrong, but I'll take it one step further: if all B&M shops went out of business, the companies hurt the most would be those that sell "low end" product lines.



> We specialists are the one's that are able to sell $2,000 components and install them properly. People like to see, hear, and touch a woofer that costs $1000 or a amplifier that is $1500. The internet cannot provide that for them.


Um... I don't know if you've noticed, but the internet IS providing for them now! There are companies out there that sell "high end" equipment almost exclusively over the internet. So I guess I don't understand this portion of your argument -- you think it will cease to be the case? 



> Most would then be reluctent to spend their hard earned money without being assured their getting what they want.
> Will $50 Pioneer speakers and $100 decks still be around? Sure, but nothing exciting or fun that made us fall in love with car audio will be around anymore.
> 
> Remember, although you diyma members are DIY people and have experience with car audio, the average person does not. You might feel comfortable building a complete system and buying it online and tearing up your car, but the average(most) people do not nor are willing to tear up their car to do it. Plus, many don't even have the time.


Yeah, a lot of people wouldn't bother. Those people tend not to be the ones buying $1500 amplifiers.

Lots of "high end" enthusiasts do their own installs. Lots of them don't do their own installs, but would if no one could do their installs for them.

But there's another market right there. If B&M stores all closed, suddenly there's a void in the market where there's a huge demand for installers. Wouldn't it therefore be a wise entrepeneurial investment to start a business that satisfied this demand, if this demand is as great as you think it is? [This is why B&Ms aren't going to all dry up, and it has nothing to do with internet sales]


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> Why is it so hard for you to see that as long as there exists a MARKET for a "high end" product, then "high end" products will exist?
> 
> [The above does not necessarily apply to industries where there's a high barrier to entry or overwhelming scarcity... which consumer electronics is not.]


I understand what you're saying, but how is a manufacturer supposed to produce a high end product but only charge wal-mart prices? It can't be done. I'm not saying a manufacturer or dealer should fleece the customer either, but if you look the average prices for car audio have been coming down steadily every year. There hasn't been the leveling off that normally occurs. What I see happening is people's definiteion of high end will change based on what's being offered, not what is truly high end.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Sex Cells said:


> I see where you're coming from, but you're operating on this doomsday theory assuming that the cycle of reducing costs and margin exists due solely to internet competition and that its causing companies to release lower and lower grade product. Sure some companies do, but generally someone else fills the void, and so on.


See that's the thing, the void filling hasn't really happened. At least not IMO. Think about it, how many truly high end companies are around now versus 15 years ago? How many high end companies abandoned car audio altogether?



> Manufacturers are constantly trying to lower costs and a lot of the time its to pass those savings on. Most business, generally speaking, is the same. You sell a lot for a low price. Or a little for a high price. Bringing a high end product to a lower price-point is a good way to increase volume and compensate for lost margin. It's an ongoing process in most industries. Hell, computers and televisions have only gotten better.


I agree, but this is where the manufacturers and their restrictions against selling online are hurting themselves. If car audio makers would allow online sales I truly believe car audio in general would see a resurgence.



> I don't subscribe to the notion that vendors selling product for a lower price killing the industry, because it sure hasn't yet. Taking it in a different direction? Certainly.


I'm not sure we're on the same page. Vendors can only charge what a consumer will pay. With less money coming into the industry something is going has to suffer. 



> I also believe that one of the largest dilemmas the industry is the competition with OEs for market share (i realize im wording this poorly, but you get it). Due to the quality of sound you can get out of a vehicle stock, or as an option -- for a reasonable price. Not to mention, its one less salesmen you have to deal with.


Oh definitely. OE is getting better all the time. If it wasn't for a few quibbles I have with my Ms sound I wouldn't change anything. It's really not that bad at all. 


And don't worry, even though the thread has gotten heated here and there I'm not taking any of this personally.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> I understand what you're saying, but how is a manufacturer supposed to produce a high end product but only charge wal-mart prices? It can't be done.


Who said anything about Wal-Mart prices? There are obviously lots of people out there right now who pay top dollar for "high end" product. Angrywhopper was just talking about people spending $1500 on amplifiers. So, clearly, there are some people willing to spend the money for "high end".

And they do that now over the internet too. There are some companies who do the bulk of their business over the internet and manufacture "high end" product at high prices. Obviously, they don't need B&Ms to pull it off.

So I think your fears are unfounded. Would things change? Sure. But to suggest that people could no longer get quality amplifiers with BB op amps and shiny heatsinks and whatever else people like; or HUs with extensive DSPs; or low distortion high output speakers; ...it's a little silly. As long as there exists a proportion of people who want those things, then there's money to be made. And as long as there's money to be made, someone will make those things.

This is why I brought up that thing earlier about that dude making the 12v power supply for the Behringer units. How big is his market? It's tiny! But he recognized that there IS a market, and so he provides the product. He invested the resources to design the product and to manufacture it, and the market is about as small as you can get. Will Sony get into this racket? Hell no. It's small potatoes. But there's a market nevertheless, and so there's a product.



> I'm not saying a manufacturer or dealer should fleece the customer either, but if you look the average prices for car audio have been coming down steadily every year. There hasn't been the leveling off that normally occurs. What I see happening is people's definiteion of high end will change based on what's being offered, not what is truly high end.


Yeah, but who cares what people call "high end"? It's always been an arbitrary designation anyway.

Lower prices is good. And you can have lower prices while still retaining high priced "high end" goods. We see that now. Want a "high end" amp? Buy one of those Tru amps that people rave about. You don't think that's "high end"? 

And there are dozens of other manufacturers out there that make amplifiers just as "high end" as those. In fact, there's MORE "high end" equipment available today than there was 20 years ago. The advent of "high end" hasn't disappeared with the entrance of low prices into the marketplace. It's still there and as strong as ever.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> True or false: If retail stores went out of business, people would no longer like Focal and Morel (which Morel?).


They'd want it but where would they get it? Neither company sells directly or authorizes internet sales. And there is only one Morel. What used to be morel USA is not Renaissance. 



> Would those manufacturers have to do things differently? Some of them, yeah. Would their sales go down? Probably. Would they stop making these products? Not as long as there's a demand.


And with less product being sold they'd HAVE to raise prices. If consumers were balking at the asking price before why would they pay even more now? 



> You seem to think that the demand comes from YOU. I think it's because you're used to the numbskulls that come into your shop and don't know their asses from their elbows. And that's what you think the "high end" car audio marketplace _in its entirety_ is. Granted, it's a hefty portion, but it's not even close to being the entire market.


The demand comes from marketing. Not to mention those "numb skulls" make up what, 98% of all car audio sales? The people on this forum are FAR from the normal car audio customer.



> Not only are your predictions wrong, but I'll take it one step further: if all B&M shops went out of business, the companies hurt the most would be those that sell "low end" product lines.


Based on what? Low-end sells out of Wal-Mart and Sears and the local flea market. Low end will ALWAYS have an outlet.



> Um... I don't know if you've noticed, but the internet IS providing for them now! There are companies out there that sell "high end" equipment almost exclusively over the internet. So I guess I don't understand this portion of your argument -- you think it will cease to be the case?


Like who for instance? Most manufacturers don't allow online sales. 



> Yeah, a lot of people wouldn't bother. Those people tend not to be the ones buying $1500 amplifiers.


This is where experience in the industry comes in. You'd be surprised who will and will not spend a lot of money on gear. IME most of the "audiophiles" are the ones least likely to want to spend money in a car because they see it as inferior in the first place. 



> Lots of "high end" enthusiasts do their own installs. Lots of them don't do their own installs, but would if no one could do their installs for them.


No, they really wouldn't. They'd live with what they have or focus on HT. 



> But there's another market right there. If B&M stores all closed, suddenly there's a void in the market where there's a huge demand for installers. Wouldn't it therefore be a wise entrepeneurial investment to start a business that satisfied this demand, if this demand is as great as you think it is? [This is why B&Ms aren't going to all dry up, and it has nothing to do with internet sales]


In your examples they all DID dry up to create the demand in the first place.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> Who said anything about Wal-Mart prices? There are obviously lots of people out there right now who pay top dollar for "high end" product. Angrywhopper was just talking about people spending $1500 on amplifiers. So, clearly, there are some people willing to spend the money for "high end".


Wal-Mart prices was a way of saying much lower average pricing. I agree, some people will spend the money but there are fewer and fewer people willing to do so.



> And they do that now over the internet too. There are some companies who do the bulk of their business over the internet and manufacture "high end" product at high prices. Obviously, they don't need B&Ms to pull it off.


In other industries that don't have the online selling restrictions that are placed on car audio dealers, yes. I know you HATE this argument but it is a fact of doing business in this industry and it seriously limits how a dealer can sell product. Hell, it limits how low a price you can even advertise.



> So I think your fears are unfounded. Would things change? Sure. But to suggest that people could no longer get quality amplifiers with BB op amps and shiny heatsinks and whatever else people like; or HUs with extensive DSPs; or low distortion high output speakers; ...it's a little silly. As long as there exists a proportion of people who want those things, then there's money to be made. And as long as there's money to be made, someone will make those things.


Agreed, someone will always make that niche product but what happens if that one or those few products fits where you need it to or does what you want? 



> This is why I brought up that thing earlier about that dude making the 12v power supply for the Behringer units. How big is his market? It's tiny! But he recognized that there IS a market, and so he provides the product. He invested the resources to design the product and to manufacture it, and the market is about as small as you can get. Will Sony get into this racket? Hell no. It's small potatoes. But there's a market nevertheless, and so there's a product.


And it's not his only market. If all he did was make 12V power supplies he'd have folded a LONG time ago. Agreed?



> Yeah, but who cares what people call "high end"? It's always been an arbitrary designation anyway.


Because when people don't know what high end truly is how can you justify pricing above the mediocre crap?



> And you can have lower prices while still retaining high priced "high end" goods. We see that now.


Excuse me? What low priced, high quality goods are out there? I think Eclipse's folding after trying this stategy is proof enough that that model doesn't work.



> Want a "high end" amp? Buy one of those Tru amps that people rave about. You don't think that's "high end"?


And they're expensive right? Can you go online and buy it for 5% over cost? 



> And there are dozens of other manufacturers out there that make amplifiers just as "high end" as those. In fact, there's MORE "high end" equipment available today than there was 20 years ago. The advent of "high end" hasn't disappeared with the entrance of low prices into the marketplace. It's still there and as strong as ever.


Then I think you and I have different opinions of high end. Almost all of the high end makers from the late 80s and early 90s have either folded or gone mass market and lowered quality to match. 

I'd love to see your list of these "dozens" of high end amps. Seriously, no sarcasm. I don't think there truly are that many.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

But I'm out of this discussion for at least the next 14 hours. Super Bowl is coming up so gotta get ready and then get a couple hours of sleep before PT.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Angrywhopper said:


> Buying fake Gucci glasses instead of the real ones is not a good analogy for what were discussing. We are talking about people being able to buy the same original product online for 2% above cost whereas it would be 40% above cost in a retail store.
> 
> What you and Mark don't understand is that if retail indy stores went out of business, Focal, Morel and many other high end expensive brands go down with them. We specialists are the one's that are able to sell $2,000 components and install them properly. People like to see, hear, and touch a woofer that costs $1000 or a amplifier that is $1500. The internet cannot provide that for them. Most would then be reluctent to spend their hard earned money without being assured their getting what they want.
> Will $50 Pioneer speakers and $100 decks still be around? Sure, but nothing exciting or fun that made us fall in love with car audio will be around anymore.
> ...


You are correct that a customer wants to feel a product.

They'll come to your store and touch and feel the product, then head to the 'net and purchase it for cheaper.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> They'd want it but where would they get it? Neither company sells directly or authorizes internet sales. And there is only one Morel. What used to be morel USA is not Renaissance.


Obviously, if B&M stores didn't exist, they'd have to start selling directly or authorizing internet sales.  It's not like there's a mandate from the king forbidding them to do so. It's a choice they've made based on the makeup of the market and their place in it. If the market changes, then so do they.



> And with less product being sold they'd HAVE to raise prices. If consumers were balking at the asking price before why would they pay even more now?


They don't have to raise prices. The whole price v. volume thing is a false dichotomy. You set prices based on the market -- ie. the consumer. If the price is too low for you to profit, then you scale your operation down or you go out of business. If you go out of business, then that expands the market for your competitors. Eventually, the market finds a natural balance, and as long as there's a demand for a particular class of product, that balance won't be zero.



> The demand comes from marketing. Not to mention those "numb skulls" make up what, 98% of all car audio sales? The people on this forum are FAR from the normal car audio customer.


Oh, I agree. But notice how I phrased what I said. I was talking about "high end" product. Those numbskulls make up a high proportion of overall sales, but not quite as high of a proportion of "high end" sales. And that's what the discussion's been about. This is also why I pointed out that the end of B&M stores would hit the "low end" market the hardest.



> Like who for instance? Most manufacturers don't allow online sales.


A couple examples have already been provided in this thread. Also, doesn't Zed do most of its business through direct order?



> This is where experience in the industry comes in. You'd be surprised who will and will not spend a lot of money on gear. IME most of the "audiophiles" are the ones least likely to want to spend money in a car because they see it as inferior in the first place.


Then obviously those aren't the ones we're talking about, are they? Read my sentence again: "Yeah, a lot of people wouldn't bother. Those people tend not to be the ones buying $1500 amplifiers." Note the tense.



> No, they really wouldn't. They'd live with what they have or focus on HT.


Um...yeah, they really would. Again, I only ask that you read what I write. I didn't say "all". I said "lots of". And I also already acknowledged those that wouldn't. Please, don't contradict until you actually understand what it is I've written.



> In your examples they all DID dry up to create the demand in the first place.


That's because that was the basis of the hypothetical! Haven't you been paying attention?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> A couple examples have already been provided in this thread. Also, doesn't Zed do most of its business through direct order?


Zed is one, then your "couple others" makes 3. Hardly "lots." Out of curiosity how many of those sites are car sites? 



> Um...yeah, they really would. Again, I only ask that you read what I write. I didn't say "all". I said "lots of". And I also already acknowledged those that wouldn't. Please, don't contradict until you actually understand what it is I've written.


In these examples "lots of" is for all intents and purposes the same as "all" since those few customers won't bring enough money to keep anything afloat. Trust me, I understand.



> That's because that was the basis of the hypothetical! Haven't you been paying attention?


This whole damned thread is hypothetical. We can't play on history because it hasn't happened any my magic 8-ball is on the fritz.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

bassfromspace said:


> You are correct that a customer wants to feel a product.
> 
> They'll come to your store and touch and feel the product, then head to the 'net and purchase it for cheaper.


And then go to that dealer for help when they screw up the install or expect the manufacturer to cover repairs under warranty when the dealer tells them they broke it.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

bassfromspace said:


> You are correct that a customer wants to feel a product.
> 
> They'll come to your store and touch and feel the product, then head to the 'net and purchase it for cheaper.


It's okay. We are plenty busy as it is..oh and those that come in and then buy on the net..usually come back because they need install work or troubleshooting..and thats when my charge becomes double $$:surprised:


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> Zed is one, then your "couple others" makes 3. Hardly "lots."


Um...what? Because I didn't provide a comprehensive list, they don't exist? I don't understand your use of logic in this thread at all. 



> Out of curiosity how many of those sites are car sites?


Car sites? What do you mean?



> In these examples "lots of" is for all intents and purposes the same as "all" since those few customers won't bring enough money to keep anything afloat. Trust me, I understand.


No, "all" means all. "Lots" means many. The distinction is important, especially when you try to disprove "lots" by providing exceptions. Again, your logic is borked.



> This whole damned thread is hypothetical. We can't play on history because it hasn't happened any my magic 8-ball is on the fritz.


Actually, no, YOUR contribution to this thread has been hypotheticals and guesswork. I've been constantly highlighting how things ARE. For example...

* the FACT that lots of manufacturers are doing things largely independent of car audio shops
* the FACT that smaller companies are providing product to even the most minute of markets
* the FACT that "high end" and "low end" coexist in the current market

These all directly refute things that you guess might happen. Or things that you're predicting will be the case as buying trends continue.


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## dman (Dec 21, 2008)

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, same old arguments.... only the day has changed... 

Any really good shop will have a RTA to tune... And i agree with a few of the posts back... Customers dont want to pay for the time to rta a system.... And yes the internet has alot of companies screwed up... The old school protected lines eventually (not all, but most) found there ways onto the internet at a little above cost, at cost, or even below cost than shops were buying at. The manufacturers left us shops hanging out in the wind so to speak... Even a few of my lines that i was direct with and bought at the deepest, started fading out on us... They were looking at the bottom dollar just like we all were. We all like good deals, but when is a good deal not a good deal... use your judgement... Im here in Texas, and i remeber Katrina, we got flooded with displace people, I had people coming in using their relief cards trying to buy audio. I refused to take them. Think what you want of me, i didnt care! You just got displaced, kids and families to take care of, and you want to pimp the ride out.... I didnt want to be a part of it... There are shops out there who do put their time and effort and sweat and pride in their work... Give those guys a break, and support them.... Then there are the fly by night shops, who just want to do the install, not really caring how or what they put in, just as long as they get paid. There are very few specialized shops out there. And the ones that are REALLY GOOD, have employees and installers that are paid very well, and someone has to pay those people, and it gets passed on to the customer. Expect to pay for top knotch stuff... If your flea market shopping, expect to get that.... Thats my 2 cents worth... To the good shops out there, keep pounding away, treat your customers with respect, go the extra mile for them (within reason), have superd customer service, and above all do good work, and you will be fine... 

OH, AudioControl, lolll..... Good stuff, ya just gotta know how to use the stuff.. Alot of people still sell it. Its current, its good, its upper end, alot of shops just DONT understand it. And if your ever get bored, look at their HOME line, REALLY top end ****..


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> Um...what? Because I didn't provide a comprehensive list, they don't exist? I don't understand your use of logic in this thread at all.


It means I think you're pulling things out of your ass. But yes, I'm still waiting on these "dozens" you claim are out there. I'd be surprised if you can get _A_ dozen. Remember, since we're being all literal like you quoted below, you'll need to provide at least 24 examples. 



> Car sites? What do you mean?


Oh, I'm sorry. Car audio sites. I thought that would have been obvious. 



> No, "all" means all. "Lots" means many. The distinction is important, especially when you try to disprove "lots" by providing exceptions. Again, your logic is borked.


You've used all in place of lots as well. 



> Actually, no, YOUR contribution to this thread has been hypotheticals and guesswork. I've been constantly highlighting how things ARE. For example...
> 
> * the FACT that lots of manufacturers are doing things largely independent of car audio shops


Again, those "lots" are? 



> * the FACT that smaller companies are providing product to even the most minute of markets
> * the FACT that "high end" and "low end" coexist in the current market


No one argued either of these. I said high end was diminishing and will probably disappear altogether. I can't imagine anyone refuting that high end car audio is not what it used to be and being able to keep a straight face while doing it. High end is losing ground. 



> These all directly refute things that you guess might happen. Or things that you're predicting will be the case as buying trends continue.


Might happen means it hasn't happened yet, right? Simple yes or no question.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> It means I think you're pulling things out of your ass. But yes, I'm still waiting on these "dozens" you claim are out there. I'd be surprised if you can get _A_ dozen. Remember, since we're being all literal like you quoted below, you'll need to provide at least 24 examples.


I will? Or else what? Or else dozens DON'T exist?

[Do you not see how crappy your logic is? Seriously...] 



> Oh, I'm sorry. Car audio sites. I thought that would have been obvious.


I still don't know what you're talking about. How many of WHAT are car audio sites? How many manufacturers are car audio sites? You make no sense. 



> You've used all in place of lots as well.


No I haven't.



> No one argued either of these. I said high end was diminishing and will probably disappear altogether. I can't imagine anyone refuting that high end car audio is not what it used to be and being able to keep a straight face while doing it. High end is losing ground.


"High end" is worlds better than it used to be. "High end" equipment of today is, quite frankly, far superior to what it was yesterday. I already explained why much earlier in the thread.



> Might happen means it hasn't happened yet, right? Simple yes or no question.


Like I said, the 'IS' refutes your 'MIGHT'. Sorry to put a damper on your tirade.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> I will? Or else what? Or else dozens DON'T exist?
> 
> [Do you not see how crappy your logic is? Seriously...]


It simply means your other arguments should be looked on with doubt since accuracy isn't a big deal to you. 



> I still don't know what you're talking about. How many of WHAT are car audio sites? How many manufacturers are car audio sites? You make no sense.


Those "many" autheorized internet sites. 




> "High end" is worlds better than it used to be. "High end" equipment of today is, quite frankly, far superior to what it was yesterday. I already explained why much earlier in the thread.


For the most part I agree, but the point was there is less high end to choose from. Of course it's better, it's newer. My point was how many companies have gotten out of high end?



> Like I said, the 'IS' refutes your 'MIGHT'. Sorry to put a damper on your tirade.


No, it really doesn't.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> It simply means your other arguments should be looked on with doubt since accuracy isn't a big deal to you.
> 
> Those "many" autheorized internet sites.


I still don't know what you're talking about. I don't think I've even used the word "authorized" in this thread. Are you trying to suggest that I'm saying there are many authorized internet sites out there? I just don't know what kinds of sites you're talking about.

When I said that there are lots of manufacturers that don't rely on B&M shops as a major part of their sales, I was referring to them being able to move product mostly over the internet. You don't need to shill your product to a middle man to be able to do that.



> For the most part I agree, but the point was there is less high end to choose from. Of course it's better, it's newer. My point was how many companies have gotten out of high end?


Not as many as have sprung up to now offer "high end". There's better high end equipment today, and more companies selling it.

Want me to name all of them? And then all of the ones from 20 years ago? If I decline to do so, does that mean I'm wrong and you're right?

I just can't believe that I have to be so explicit with someone who claims to be attached to the industry. These are things that you should KNOW, and the fact that you don't really leads me to question.. what exactly DO you know? You must be a hell of an installer...



> No, it really doesn't.


It's a shame you think that speculation trumps reality. I guess we all have our opinions.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> I still don't know what you're talking about. I don't think I've even used the word "authorized" in this thread. Are you trying to suggest that I'm saying there are many authorized internet sites out there? I just don't know what kinds of sites you're talking about.
> 
> When I said that there are lots of manufacturers that don't rely on B&M shops as a major part of their sales, I was referring to them being able to move product mostly over the internet. You don't need to shill your product to a middle man to be able to do that.


I hate to break it to you, but even an internet site is a middle man. The same middle man that a B&M is. Only difference is whether or not they have a store front. 



> Not as many as have sprung up to now offer "high end".


We will have to agree to disagree on this. IMO there are drastically fewer companies making high end gear than there used to be.



> There's better high end equipment today, and more companies selling it.


I agree the equipment is better. MUCH better in fact. I still don't agree there are more companies making it though.



> Want me to name all of them? And then all of the ones from 20 years ago? If I decline to do so, does that mean I'm wrong and you're right?


I see what you did there.  The difference is before you threw a number out there but can't event begin to back it up. I'm not the one that painted you into that corner, you did.



> I just can't believe that I have to be so explicit with someone who claims to be attached to the industry. These are things that you should KNOW, and the fact that you don't really leads me to question.. what exactly DO you know? You must be a hell of an installer...


I DO know, which is why I knew you wouldn't be able to back up that claim of "dozens." Don't insult me to draw the attention away from the point. It doesn't become someone with your schooling. I'm just a former retail whore I'm supposed to argue poorly. 



> It's a shame you think that speculation trumps reality. I guess we all have our opinions.


Like that whole "dozens" thing, right? Was that was a reality or a speculation? 


But I think even you would have to agree that discussion has run much too long and is turning into nothing but a pissing contest. I know you'll want to get your last pot-shots in so knock youself out. I won't be responding again.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> I hate to break it to you, but even an internet site is a middle man. The same middle man that a B&M is. Only difference is whether or not they have a store front.


So...who's the middle man in Zed's operation?



> We will have to agree to disagree on this. IMO there are drastically fewer companies making high end gear than there used to be.


Again, it's unfathomable to me that anyone can believe that there are FEWER companies that make "high end" product. Everyone and anyone who has any knowledge of car audio should know this, unless they're blinded by nostalgia.



> I see what you did there.  The difference is before you threw a number out there but can't event begin to back it up. I'm not the one that painted you into that corner, you did.


It's not a corner. It's work that I'm just not willing to do. Nor is it an important point, since I (and others in this thread) have already demonstrated a few examples that turn your argument on its head. If it's true for a few, then it defeats your argument that the business model requires a store front to sustain itself. Why quibble over numbers? We'll have to "agree to disagree" on the actual numbers.



> Like that whole "dozens" thing, right? Was that was a reality or a speculation?


Reality. The fact that you think you've demonstrated that it's _not_ reality shows me that your logic skills are exactly what I thought they were. 

Basically, you're just not equipped to have this conversation. You have no knowledge of the subject matter (namely, electronics and economics), but what's worse is that you have an inability to use reasoning to get from point A to point B.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> For the most part I agree, but the point was there is less high end to choose from. Of course it's better, it's newer. My point was how many companies have gotten out of high end?


Probably fewer that have entered. Previously, one had to actually make a product. Now, there are plenty of buildhouses with product lines just waiting for some enterprising marketer to pick them up and mark them up to silly levels so some audiophool thinks s/he's getting a 'high end' piece of kit.

Note that the scope shift between Mark's argument ("offer [']high end['] gear), and your argument ("make [']high end['] gear"), leads to the possibility that both of them are in fact true. (You _did_ realize you were replying to him with an _entirely different point_, right? Words have meaning.)

Mark is probably correct, from my observations, that there are more firms on the market now than ever before, marketing/reselling/rebadging OEM stuff from East Asian suppliers and selling it at high prices. (Relative to the prices of _other_ marketers/resellers/rebadgers of the same stuff. See, e.g., Arc KS 125.2 Mini vs. elfAudio 2125X.)

You may also be correct, however, that the number of East Asian factories that provide the commodity parts resold as 'high end' is small. I don't know.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Have we established at least a working definition of "high-end"?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

bassfromspace said:


> Have we established at least a working definition of "high-end"?


No. 

I've made certain to keep the phrase in quotes all along, because I think the border between "high end" and "not high end" is completely ambiguous. But, no matter where you draw the line (at least, regarding reasonable parameters), I'm certain that you'll find more of a variety of products that exceed that line today than you would have 15 years ago. 

Proportion-wise? No way. But in terms of sheer number, hell yeah. But that's all that really matters -- number of "high end" products available to the consumer. You could say the same about "low end" products too... there's more of 'em.

I think a lot of the older amplifiers, for example, gave the mystique of "high end" at least partially because there seemed to be more of a tendency to underrate them than there is now. And this was really a brilliant marketing strategy. Give a guy an underrated 50w PPI and an accurately rated 50w Kenwood -- he'll listen to both and realize that the PPI was way better. But the spec sheets say they have the same power! So the difference MUST be that the PPI has more ess-que.

My discussion of "high end" in this thread hasn't been so much about the amplifiers (although I think my point holds in that arena too), but rather the source units and speakers. Speaker technology has improved pretty substantially, especially with subwoofers. And if you go outside the car audio marketed stuff, you find an even more dramatic improvement. And sources/processors? There's no comparison.


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> ...How many people call envision and say they can get it for less from another dealer?


Actually, none. My dealer network is pretty small and they aren't supposed to undersell me. But people do as they wish for their friends, or whatnot. Dealers are installing the DSPower themselves and selling the units modified at their shop, for instance. They can price it however they want - I've got no restrictions on that. But you have to go to their shops to buy it. 

I'm not going to try and destroy what I've built by getting mad at a guy for short selling a few power supplies. Maybe I won't renew his contract...? It hasn't happened yet, to my knowledge. 

If I start selling a lot more stuff, things might change out of necessity. But I really hate being a jerk about it.


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> This is why I brought up that thing earlier about that dude making the 12v power supply for the Behringer units. How big is his market? It's tiny! But he recognized that there IS a market, and so he provides the product. He invested the resources to design the product and to manufacture it, and the market is about as small as you can get. Will Sony get into this racket? Hell no. It's small potatoes. But there's a market nevertheless, and so there's a product.


That's it in a nutshell!

I sell 10-15 units per month. It doesn't keep the lights on; It's strictly a device that gets my name out there. 

Now, my commercial lighting design is a huge market. I just need some start-up capital. Working on that one...


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## KrackerG (Jan 18, 2011)

WoW! i came here to this thread to talk/read about Audio Control Epicenters, but it spiraled into a discussion/debate about old skool b&m shops vs. the web. lots of good points made here tho, good read!

anyways, i have an issue....i wanna' keep my audio control epicenter, ive switched to a 'newer' head unit and i think it wont work as part of my system anymore. can anyone give me advice on my setup?? here is a link, it's posted in this forum----> General Mobile Audio Discussion - "No question is dumb"

titled " Audio Control Epicenter, installing new 6 out headunit "


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## VWGuy (Apr 30, 2011)

Back to the OP question, I have to say No, Audio Conrtol is not dead. I just picked up a Three.2 and the store where I bought it had sold 2 more earlier that same week. Granted, only 2 stores in Utah are authorized dealers, but hey I don't mind that.


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## VerTigo456 (Dec 6, 2006)

I have an audiocontrol EQS that I was planning on installing but my installer said that the eq in my double din will really be enough and the EQS won't be necessary. 

Think I am going to put mine up for sale...


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## VWGuy (Apr 30, 2011)

That's a different story altogether. My 59VW truck has nothing in it. If your factory eq is good enough, sell what you don't need


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## VWGuy (Apr 30, 2011)

My reasons for getting the Three.2 are that; first, my VW truck did not have a head unit from the factory and installing one requires hacking the dash, building a custom mount that fits in the parcel tray, or mounting a universal box under the parcel tray. All are pretty terrible choices. Second, since all of my CDs are ripped to mp3 or flac buying a head unit just to plug my iPod on seems redundant. I decided to run my stereo straight off of the iPod directly. Eliminate the head unit middleman. Space is limited in the truck,so I chose a 5 channel amp with a 2 ohm class d channel for my sub. That amp has 3 RCA inputs and I needed to split the signal from the iPod. The Three.2 acts as a splitter and a line driver. It also gives me volume control and an eq. With 2 additional aux inputs i can plug my wife's or my friend's mp3 player as well. For my application, the AC is ideal. Now for modern systems with awesome head units I can see how the AC is not needed.


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