# Switched to a DSP Pro from a Mosconi 6to8v8- Comparisons



## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

I wanted to do this thread with an honest comparison of my overall experience switching to the Helix DSP Pro from a 6to8v8

This thread is not meant to talk crap about either one but is just an honest view from my point of view. I really enjoyed my 6to8 and would run one again in a future vehicle but for this vehicle and its needs the Helix is just what the doctor ordered. 

I did not open this thread to take away from the other one found here (* http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/167576-helix-dsp-pro-who-has-info.html * )in any way. It is more of a thread meant for a direct comparison that can be found easily with the search bar. 

It all started with the helix DSP thread and a few PM's that I received from another member...I figured that this could help other members that are making the same choice but without having to dig through the pages upon pages in the other thread. 



> Oh wow. Does it sound different? Really curious to know how it changed the sound of the system. Very cool stuff. Thanks


*What is great about the Helix----*
The best way to describe it is just much more resolute. I can hear more depth and better overall clarity. I think the stereo There is absolutely no noise that I can hear whatsoever. The turn on/turnoff pop that I was hearing is gone now and I think it was due to the fact that I had drained my battery down substantially over the course of a few days of tuning and forgetting to run the engine for a little bit. 

I am able to run my gains all the way down and my head unit higher because with the mosconi, if I set the gains at the max unclipped level of 26 on my head unit, it would still mute the outputs too often. Now that I don't have that feature, I can run the volume up to 26 and therefore I was able to drop my gains. I cannot hear any distortion 98% of the time. it is my factory radio and hd radio that have the small clips sporadically that I believe was making the mosconi mute. Again, I verified everything with my Oscilloscope and it is good to go up to level 26 on all channels. 

One cool thing is that I already have a use for the incremental phase shifting features. I ran a couple sweeps and found that my drivers are out of phase by increments of like 22 degrees or so. Well I can now change that because the dsp pro has that ability to change the phase in 11.25 degree increments. Awesome.

The channel and gain output level and meter on the main page of the tuning software is pretty useful. It works similar to a vu level meter or something. I did not know about this but it proved useful already for me. 

I hate having to have a cord connected to do tuning but oh do I adore the instant changes when you are doing so. The 6to8v8 was not instant. You have to click somewhere else to make the changes happen. (another field)

The connection speed when you are loading the software is pretty quick too. No more waiting for the 6to8 to load each preset.

Having almost all the settings that you will adjust on one screen is pretty nice. 
I did not like having to select two 12db crossover slopes in order to get one 24db slope. The Helix allows you to simply select the crossover slope you want in one step. I will say that the Mosconi way of doing it could come in use if you wanted to select for instance two LP slopes but one at 80hz and one at like 120 hz. But I have never had to do that before and if I absolutely needed to then I could use the filters on my amps for that. 

As far as the EQ goes, the helix is much more versatile in that it allows you to have the same amount of frequency bands for every channel. I understand the reasoning behind the way that mosconi does it but I am a fan of letting the end user decide. What if I was hooking up every channel to a front stage. Well the mosconi is going to reduce the available bands in the later channels. 

The case/heat sink on the Helix can be removed and you can totally reverse the way it is mounted. Awesome, I originally wanted my input stage on the right and output stage on the left but then the letters would be opposite the direction that my amp lettering is. I moved the wiring to accommodate the processor and have the lettering correct. Later I found out that I could have simply change the layout of the guts of the processor and it would have been prefect. Nice touch Helix! Maybe later I will change the wiring back to how I wanted it.



*So now what is it that I do not like about the Helix---*

Where is that director? Let's put a move on it before we get into the PS8 type of situation here.

I still have not gotten my rear sub output to work without the front channels bleeding into the front. If I fade to the front there should be no signal going to my sub but there is. This is kind of bothersome since my factory sub channel does not attenuate below 45hz like the factory door midbass channels. i built my enclosure tuned to around 29hz and unfortunately hooking up to the front mbass channel I am losing signal there. I hope this is something that a software update can fix. Definitely not a deal breaker though.

The silly small connectors for the high level inputs are just ST00Pid! I they could have easily stuck with the same size connector as they used for the power connector. Not a deal breaker though.

I still prefer a mounting flange that does not require a special bit to fit through the top flange to tighten a screw completely vertically. I have a plethora of bits and all of them are high strength made for impact drivers. I will have to go out and buy a long skinny bit for this. Not a deal breaker though.

I would still rather have the input sensitivity adjustment screws accessible without having to dismount the DSP and take it apart. For now I just removed the plate on the bottom and will run this thing without it. Not a deal breaker

I would like the ability to lock the graph so that it does not clear my selected check boxes every time I select a different channel. Again....Not a deal breaker.

I hate having to have a cord connected to do tuning but I guess I am spoiled by the mosconi. 

Lets get an app developed just like the mosconi to allow preset changes and level controls. It was really handy and requires no real estate in the dash to be taken up like a controller or director would. You only have to open the app on a phone and connect. I used the app every day. Not a deal breaker though. My eventual plan is to have a permanent cheap laptop that will stay in the vehicle and will be hooked up to the HDMI input on a future replacement headunit. I should be able to use the head unit as my screen and basically have full tuning capability on the headunit by way of the hidden laptop. I will also have the ability to hook my preamp and mic setup into that laptop to get impulse measurements. T will probably use my own mic with the helix software for RTA only measurements once the feature becomes available in a software update.




So that is it for now. I will add more as I play more and more with the processor. I am really enjoying it so far and look forward to learning more of the capabilities of the unit.


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## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

I'm reading this!


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

Huckleberry Sound said:


> I'm reading this!


Thanks for keeping up!


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

i wonder if i can flip the orientation on the HelixDSP as you describe in the Pro version...that would be cool, and something i have never heard anyone mention before.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

Subscribing to this thread.

I may add my own impressions once I get some more time to work with my DSP Pro.

It's been installed for more than a week, but I still have not even hooked my speakers up to my amps yet. I set my amp gains with my oscilloscope on 3 out of my 4 amps.

Been way too busy working to actually get my new equipment set up.
Gotta pay for all this audio gear somehow.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Good insight. Thanks!


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## donotattempt (Dec 30, 2009)

Watching this thread for sure.


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

ndm said:


> I am able to run my gains all the way down and my head unit higher because with the mosconi, if I set the gains at the max unclipped level of 26 on my head unit, it would still mute the outputs too often. Now that I don't have that feature, I can run the volume up to 26 and therefore I was able to drop my gains.


I see that that you are using an o-scope, but that sounds like the 6to8 just wasn't set correctly.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

DLO13 said:


> I see that that you are using an o-scope, but that sounds like the 6to8 just wasn't set correctly.


I tried every which way and even started from scratch multiple times. 

In all fairness though, I have a feeling that it was due to my factory setup. This thing's audio is a pain in the AZZ but the Jeep makes me giggle every time I drive it. The factory amplified signal does some goofy stuff and I find that I get weird pops from weird stuff. For instance, I have noticed that when I go "balls to the wall" (Rapid acceleration) with my Jeep, it seems like when I get off the gas I get a popping noise through the factory radio. It is really quick and does not happen with every deceleration. Well that pop is not pleasing to the Mosconi at all. Mutes every time. It is not that bad at all but it definitely makes the mosconi mute. One day when I replace the factory radio I suspect that it wont be a problem. 

Also, my radio has the feature that changes the frequency response when you accelerate and at higher volumes. That is also a problem. Not like I am going to be able to run sweeps with the RTA and o-scope while I am doing like 80mph. Well I guess I could but unfortunately I do not let anyone else drive my beast.

But yeah, I blame most of the issues on my factory setup.

Again, I really liked the 6to8v8. I just like the DSP Pro more at this time.


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## 6APPEAL (Apr 5, 2007)

Sub'd


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

ndm said:


> I tried every which way and even started from scratch multiple times.
> 
> In all fairness though, I have a feeling that it was due to my factory setup. This thing's audio is a pain in the AZZ but the Jeep makes me giggle every time I drive it. The factory amplified signal does some goofy stuff and I find that I get weird pops from weird stuff. For instance, I have noticed that when I go "balls to the wall" (Rapid acceleration) with my Jeep, it seems like when I get off the gas I get a popping noise through the factory radio. It is really quick and does not happen with every deceleration. Well that pop is not pleasing to the Mosconi at all. Mutes every time. It is not that bad at all but it definitely makes the mosconi mute. One day when I replace the factory radio I suspect that it wont be a problem.
> 
> ...


That automatic volume adjust is usually an option on the factory stereos... at least in the cars i have owned and set up for friends.... 
Odd.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

DLO13 said:


> That automatic volume adjust is usually an option on the factory stereos... at least in the cars i have owned and set up for friends....
> Odd.


2012 and 2013 models of the Srt jeep cannot turn it off. 2014 and above you can....WTF. 

If you can locate a way for me to turn it off I would be very very happy.


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

ndm said:


> 2012 and 2013 models of the Srt jeep cannot turn it off. 2014 and above you can....WTF.
> 
> If you can locate a way for me to turn it off I would be very very happy.


too lazy :laugh:

What i will say is that i fully intended on keeping my factory radio for my install and ended up swapping it out. Just from having the factory speakers playing right now, i can see a MASSSSSIVE improvement in quality. 

Starting to change the intention of the thread.... so i will stand down.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

Subbing for later


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## donotattempt (Dec 30, 2009)

I was just watching the "banter". Hats off to you for standing down. Useful information during the very little back and forth .


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

I just posted an email to the Audiotec Fischer website. Hopefully they have a good solution.

it reads as follows--



> I have a Helix DSP Pro and I am using it with my factory radio in a 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8. I want to use the high level inputs from the front highs, front lows, rear and sub output. With these connections the sub and rear are on the rear fader channels.
> 
> The problem is that when I fade to the rear I am still getting signal to my sub woofer channel and I should not be. I have the signal set at 100% to the sub woofer channel so there should not be any signal present with the system faded to the front.
> 
> ...


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## donotattempt (Dec 30, 2009)

I hope the solution will rule in your favor.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

This is the frequency response of the channels that I am working with so you can see why I want to use the sub channel highlevel out for the input on the helix. you can see the response falls off at about 45HZ.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

I've got some bad turn-on and turn-off pops coming from my DSP Pro.

At first, I was worried it was the amps causing the pops. But when I disconnected the RCA cables from the DSP to the amps, the pops went away. So it's the DSP causing the noise.

Working on diagnosing the issue now. I'll report back later when I know more.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

subterFUSE said:


> I've got some bad turn-on and turn-off pops coming from my DSP Pro.
> 
> At first, I was worried it was the amps causing the pops. But when I disconnected the RCA cables from the DSP to the amps, the pops went away. So it's the DSP causing the noise.
> 
> Working on diagnosing the issue now. I'll report back later when I know more.


 Mine are definitely gone for now. I originally had the remote turn on hooked to the pro and it did not need to be. Then it went back to my remote turn on distro terminal for all the other equipment....which was where it originated in the first place....Duh. I disconnected the "remote loop" and all seems well now.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

Found part of my issue with the Bleed through...Sort of.... 

My sub channel output from the amp is WAYYYYYYY too hot. It seems to have Much more output that the others so if is definitely clipping the inputs. I need to figure out a way to reduce the output. Maybe I will use a high to low converter.

I might just say forget it since I tested the rear speaker output and it is pretty flat.

The DSP is not perfect but it is pretty nice so far.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

ndm said:


> Mine are definitely gone for now. I originally had the remote turn on hooked to the pro and it did not need to be. Then it went back to my remote turn on distro terminal for all the other equipment....which was where it originated in the first place....Duh. I disconnected the "remote loop" and all seems well now.


My situation is a little different from yours because I am not using the Lo-Level or Hi-Level inputs on the DSP Pro. Both of my audio sources are Optical.

Source 1 = mObridge DA1
Source 2 = Audison BitPlay HD SSD


The Helix DSP Pro manual says that digital inputs will not trigger the DSP to turn on, so we must use the remote input on the DSP. But that's only part of the story; I went back and RTFM, and sure enough, right there in the manual, it says *don't connect the remote input of the DSP to an ignition wire,* or else there will be pops. Haha.... derp! :laugh:

So, I've got to rework my remote input to the DSP.

I'll report back with further findings.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

subterFUSE said:


> My situation is a little different from yours because I am not using the Lo-Level or Hi-Level inputs on the DSP Pro. Both of my audio sources are Optical.
> 
> Source 1 = mObridge DA1
> Source 2 = Audison BitPlay HD SSD
> ...


Awesome!! I am glad that you have a good grasp on the issue.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

ndm said:


> Awesome!! I am glad that you have a good grasp on the issue.


Fixed. One of the remote wires was backwards.
Everything is starting and shutting down with no pops now.

I hope to start tuning tonight.


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## donotattempt (Dec 30, 2009)

Awesome. Glad to see your progress.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

Thanks. Now I really need to spend some alone time with the car tuning.

But I've been too damned busy being married, and working to pay for all this crap that just went into my car.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

subterFUSE said:


> Thanks. Now I really need to spend some alone time with the car tuning.
> 
> But I've been too damned busy being married, and working to pay for all this crap that just went into my car.


Im married...a 16 yr old girl.....a 2 yr old boy.....upcoming military deployment for 3/4 of a year....professional career....


I totally understand.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

Had my first tuning session with the DSP Pro yesterday. Overall, I really like the interface. There were some things I noticed, however:

1. On the Time Config page, the Channels do not reflect the assignments you make from the IO page. For example, I have Channel A as Front Left High (for my horns). But on the Time page is says Channel A = Front Left Full.

My subwoofers are on Channels E & F, but in the Time page it says subs are on I & J.

This is just a naming issue. The time adjustments all work correctly on the channels. But I'm kinda surprised that got past the engineers.


2. When I was assigning Parametric EQ parameters, I noticed that you have to delete the digits after a decimal point before you can type over them.

For example, let's say you want to reduce the gain on an EQ band from 0.00dB to -3.50dB.
If I click on the 0.00dB number and type 3.5, the result is 3.00. If I want to make it 3.5 I must use the arrow key to move past the decimal point to the right and then backspace or delete one of the two proceeding zeros, then type in the 5. Not the end of the world, but annoying nonetheless.


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

How did it sound? Different from the 6to8? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

I don't have a 6to8, and have never heard one.

My previous DSP was an Audison BitOne. The Helix blows it out of the water, for sure.


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

My bad. For some reason I thought I saw 6to8. Still good to hear your thoughts compared to the BitOne.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

teldzc1 said:


> My bad. For some reason I thought I saw 6to8. Still good to hear your thoughts compared to the BitOne.


The OP switched from mosconi to HelixDSP pro...


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

Okay. Here is a point for the mosconi unit. 

I really like the ability to apply EQ to the input signal. The 6to8 has that feature. It would be useful to be able to EQ my signal coming into the unit to get as close to a flat signal as I can before I split out to the individual channels. 

Not really too big of a deal but it was nice having it on the mosconi unit.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

ndm said:


> Okay. Here is a point for the mosconi unit.
> 
> I really like the ability to apply EQ to the input signal. The 6to8 has that feature. It would be useful to be able to EQ my signal coming into the unit to get as close to a flat signal as I can before I split out to the individual channels.
> 
> Not really too big of a deal but it was nice having it on the mosconi unit.


Yeah, that's a nice feature which the Audison BitOne also has.

That also reminds me I need to perform a response test on my MoBridge DA1 preamp to see if it removes the Bose EQ from the MMI. I suspect it does, but I need to test it to be sure. Thanks for the reminder.


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## shibbydevil (Jul 2, 2010)

Is there a speed sensor wire you can cut on the headunit that would keep the headunit from seeing a speed change?


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

Nevermind.... I looked back at the thread.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

shibbydevil said:


> Is there a speed sensor wire you can cut on the headunit that would keep the headunit from seeing a speed change?


I will look into it but I suspect not. The signal is mostly "phuckard up" inside the factory amp. I Wish I could tap into the factory amp and completely nuke all signal processing. I would make all channels full range and reduce the output to the sub channel by 10 volts to match up with the rest of the system.

I cannot wait to change this thing out. It is way more problematic than it is worth. I want to get either the top Alpine or Kenwood excelon unit. I am leaning toward kenwood because of the mirroring features from my Android. The Alpine is desirable because of optical out and the 8 inch screen availability.

The kenwood units are Wayyyy more flexible and have many more useful features that would sort of future proof the headunit. More usb inputs,etc.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

I am really pleased with my current setup because both of my sources are optical into the DSP Pro.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

Getting a little OT with this, but I mentioned wanting to test the output from my mObridge DA1 preamp to see if it indeed removes the factory EQ applied by the Bose system in my car.


Here is the measured FR when I was using the Bose amplifier to feed my Audison BitOne. This is an unaltered signal coming out of the Bose and then into the BitOne.











Obviously, the Bose DSP was applying some serious EQing to the response. Ideally, this graph should be a flat, horizontal line.



Here is what I just measured coming out of my mObridge DA1 preamp.
I fed an optical cable from the DA1 into my sound card and swept with REW.











Needless to say, that's a LOT better. The mObridge has all but eliminated the Bose EQ curve, and I now have a nice clean signal to feed my DSP Pro.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

subterFUSE said:


> Getting a little OT with this, but I mentioned wanting to test the output from my mObridge DA1 preamp to see if it indeed removes the factory EQ applied by the Bose system in my car.
> 
> 
> Here is the measured FR when I was using the Bose amplifier to feed my Audison BitOne. This is an unaltered signal coming out of the Bose and then into the BitOne.
> ...



What I wouldnt give for a curve like that!


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

ndm said:


> What I wouldnt give for a curve like that!


Yeah. I'm pretty chuffed about that, considering what I was dealing with before. Bose = meh...


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

Well I have figured out that the muting that kept happening was very likely due to my factory setup. I know this because I am getting some weird random pops with the new DSP too. It seems like when I speed up and slow down quickly. I think it has something to do with the speed dependent volume thing. 

The only thing that is good is that now the music does not mute. 

Again, Cannot wait to get rid of this factory radio. It sounds pretty good when it is not modified.


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## 335iscp (Sep 1, 2014)

subscribed...


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

ndm said:


> Found part of my issue with the Bleed through...Sort of....
> 
> My sub channel output from the amp is WAYYYYYYY too hot. It seems to have Much more output that the others so if is definitely clipping the inputs. I need to figure out a way to reduce the output. Maybe I will use a high to low converter.
> 
> ...


Okay, major improvement. I got tired of the lost bass on my factory front door sub high level output. I wanted to use the sub output but as stated before, I was getting the bleed through due to the high output on the factory sub channel. Well, after some reading and a little bit of a temper tantrum on my part I sat down and came up with the solution. I had a few extra 50ohm resistors sitting here and I input the values into a voltage divider calculator found here>>>> Voltage Divider Calculator

So after realizing that I had the right amount of resistors to do a divider to cut the output in half, I broke out the solder iron and made two of them. I wired them into the tapped sub output channels and set the new parameters in the input/output screen an Voila!!!

Now I still had to attenuate the level of the sub channels to 60% but wow!! it is working wonderfully! I am now able to take advantage of the strong signal of the sub channel and I have my NASTY low extension back.

Below is an illustration of the front high, front door sub and the actual sub outputs so you can see why it was such a big deal. You can see that my factory door sub output started dropping off at 40hz where as the actual sub output drops at like 25hz. Major difference. My bass now has BALLS again!

Now I dont know why the dsp pro could not take it even after adjusting the input sensitivity inside the unit but it is really doing the deed now.

I might be able to take waiting for the new head unit now...........yeah right. My ADHD would never let me do that. Iwill however have the time now to make my decision on which one to get though.












EDIT__I forgot to add that I do not understand why the factory output for the sub did not work since It was only putting out around 18V. The DSP pro is supposed to be able to take 20V. It is really odd to me. 

Either way I got it working but the mosconi did not need this to work. I simply hooked up the sub output by way of an rca plug and attenuated it to about 50% and it worked. So definitely a point for Mosconi here for not needing any other modifications to work. Now I think had I put the voltage divider on the mosconi setup it may have eliminated some of the muting. 

So my signal is now much more balanced with all factory outputs putting out about 9-10 volts each. This has eliminated the bleed issue that I was having. between the front and sub with the fader. 

My weak link is still the factory head unit. Second weak link is the midbass. I want to replace the Boston Z6's in the doors with jl zr800cw's and that should give me the heavy chest thumping midbass I require. Last weak link is the deadening. There is buzzing and rattling everywhere. I want to get the setup finalized before I go and rip it out to deaden the Whole jeep. 

Things are looking up!!

So I


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

Awesome update!!!!


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

quietfly said:


> Awesome update!!!!


I use this forum as a research library. I absolutely hate it when people post a problem that they are working through and then never post what the solution. I look at it as if I were a guy out there in my same shoes trying to find the answer to a problem. Plenty of times I see posts about a problem but with no solution. 

So note to all.......Post your issue .......fix your issue.......then follow up post....

My comparison is not over yet though. Be looking out for more........see my next post for more comparison info


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

Okay, here is another bit of stuff I can say about the comparison between these two processors.

Is there a such a thing as too much adjustments? That is the question of the day.

I am noticing kind of a double edge sword type of thing. No mistake about it, the Helix DSP pro has way more adjustment capability. I mean alot more.....but.....as a guy that is not the extreme sq/competition type, I am wondering if I really need all that. I have so much flexibility that I don't think that I will ever really use it all. I just keep playing with all the settings and I find that I seem to get almost lost in it all. 

Now don't get me wrong. I love knowing that it it there for me to use but, for the novice it could get pretty aggravating/ confusing having all these adjustments. They might get lost in it all. For instance, finding the right balance with the phase of all the drivers is hard enough when you only have 0 and 180 degree phase adjustment and time alignment. Now lets add phase adjustments at every point from 0 to 360 degrees in about 11 degree increments and time alignment in increments of 3 mm. It is taking me much longer to really get to where I want things. I know that eventually I will get it extremely more fine tuned but how fine do I really need it? 

It is almost the same as the example of my wood working tool setup. I used to get so anal about the setup of my tools. I had to have my saw set up to within .001 tolerances. One day I realized that it really does not matter because the wood swells and contracts so much that it is really not necessary to be that anal. Machine shop tools for working metal need to be that tight but not wood working tools. Make sense? I still have cuts that fit so tight that there is no need for any thing but clamping and wood glue. I still have ultra smooth cuts too. Now I just spend more time building and waste less time setting up and maintaining those ridiculous tolerances.

So again, it is a double edge sword but I think that newbies should be aware of the fact that you have to know how to use the capability in order to get the most from your cool equipment. 

On that note....we will give a point to the DSP Pro for having so much adjustment capability that in the hands of a novice it can get confusing but in the hands of an expert, it can get more fine tuned. 


Next note is a reoccurring one. I really miss the wireless tuning of the Mosconi. Every time I hook that wire across the seats I miss it. I had an issue with my active USB extender. Its drivers stopped working and I turned a 3 hour trip into a 4.5 hour trip getting it to work again. Now this is not the fault of the DSP pro. It is my computer. Remember though, I never had this issue with the mosconi because it was all done wirelessly. Tune from the kitchen....no problem. Tune from my drivers seat....no problem.....load a new tune from a spot sitting on the toilet in the bathroom next to the garage....no problem I never had to open the lid on my amp rack. Just put the Bluetooth dongle in during install and close the amp rack up. Every now and then I would lose the connection but not to worry just reconnect and you are good to go.

I again miss that mosconi app very much so too. I was giving my buddy a demo down the street and realized that I left the sub attenuated about 9db during my last session. I could not fix it since I had no computer with me. the mosconi app would have allowed me to press about 3 buttons on my phone and then slide the sub volume up. 



Well that is it for now. I hope I have so far helped a few folks decide which processor that want. Then again, I probably made the decision harder..lol


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

ndm said:


> I use this forum as a research library. I absolutely hate it when people post a problem that they are working through and then never post what the solution. I look at it as if I were a guy out there in my same shoes trying to find the answer to a problem. Plenty of times I see posts about a problem but with no solution.
> 
> So note to all.......Post your issue .......fix your issue.......then follow up post....
> 
> My comparison is not over yet though. Be looking out for more........see my next post for more comparison info


+1 :thumbsup:


And regarding your last post about too much adjustability, well, it _is_ named the DSP *PRO*. 

But I wholeheartedly agree regarding the desire for wireless tuning and Android & iOS apps.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

Yes, there are a ton of adjustments on the DSP Pro. I am really enjoying the process of getting to know mine.

Just FYI - they have uploaded Software version 3.06b on the Audiotec Fischer website.

Not sure what the changes are. Probably has most to do with the new amplifier/DSP combo they recently released. I have not downloaded it yet myself, but plan to.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

ndm said:


> Now don't get me wrong. I love knowing that it it there for me to use but, for the novice it could get pretty aggravating/ confusing having all these adjustments. They might get lost in it all. For instance, finding the right balance with the phase of all the drivers is hard enough when you only have 0 and 180 degree phase adjustment and time alignment. Now lets add phase adjustments at every point from 0 to 360 degrees in about 11 degree increments and time alignment in increments of 3 mm. It is taking me much longer to really get to where I want things. I know that eventually I will get it extremely more fine tuned but how fine do I really need it?



Just posting this for everyone's general information and benefit:


It's very important to understand how the phase adjustments work so you can adjust them correctly.

They are based on a 2nd Order allpass filter, which theoretically has no affect on frequency response but shifts the phase *at the corner frequency*.

The DSP Pro automatically sets the corner frequency from the High Pass setting in your crossover for that channel. *This is absolutely critical to understand* because you need to know where your phase adjustments are happening. Phase is frequency dependent, so an adjustment to the phase at 100Hz won't necessarily yield the same phase relationship at 4000Hz.

If you attempt to adjust phase angle by moving the phase slider on the lower of two drivers, you will throw everything out of alignment because the center frequency on the lower driver is based on its *HIGH PASS*. So now you have thrown off not only the mid/tweet relationship, but potentially the alignment with the midbass.

The only exception to this is the subwoofer channel. The DSP Pro software uses the Low Pass frequency as the corner for the phase adjust on the subs.

Full Range channels only get a 0/180 phase invert option.



Bottom line is that you need to set your midbass and sub relationship before you move upward to the mids and/or tweets. You can adjust the sub phase to the midbass if you like, but after that you can only adjust the phase on the higher driver. Also, you must have your crossovers set first. If you change any crossovers, your phase relationships will change but so will the corner frequency on the phase adjustment slider. Crossovers affect everything.

Assuming your crossovers and time alignment are set, I think the best method to adjust the phase on the DSP Pro might be to match up your midbass drivers to each other using their phase adjustments. Now leave the phase alone on the midbass and don't touch it again. Next adjust the subwoofer to match the midbass using only the phase on the subs. Then adjust your midrange to match the midbass, using only the phase on the midrange. Last, do the tweeters.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> +1 :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> And regarding your last post about too much adjustability, well, it _is_ named the DSP *PRO*.
> ...


I know...I am just being honest for any novices that may not realize that it may not be just a name. This thing really does have a bunch of capability that you might not fully understand how to use.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

subterFUSE said:


> Yes, there are a ton of adjustments on the DSP Pro. I am really enjoying the process of getting to know mine.
> 
> Just FYI - they have uploaded Software version 3.06b on the Audiotec Fischer website.
> 
> Not sure what the changes are. Probably has most to do with the new amplifier/DSP combo they recently released. I have not downloaded it yet myself, but plan to.





subterFUSE said:


> Just posting this for everyone's general information and benefit:
> 
> 
> It's very important to understand how the phase adjustments work so you can adjust them correctly.
> ...


Awesome information. 

Thanks for the heads up on the software update. Looks like mic calibrations are available too

Changelog
Version	Beschreibung
3.06b	
The HELIX P SIX DSP has been implemented in the DSP PC-Tool (live & demo mode)
Main - The adjustment range of the shelving filter has been increased
DCM - The loading & saving procedure has been improved
DCM - release times in the signal management tab were adjusted
IO - Fixed an issue when displaying routed signals
Time - Assigned channel names will be displayed correctly like named in the IO menu
RTA - A function for loading microphone calibration data has been implemented. The specific corrections have to be added in the 'cal.txt' file in the installation folder of the DSP PC-Tool (default: Crogram filesATF DSP PC-Tool 3.xx). The corrections are starting in row number three, should be added in the same format and every correction has to be written in a separate row. You can add as many corrections as you need. After the "cal.txt" is loaded correctly you will find a small symbol between the Autoset and the Settings button in the RTA window.
The backend has been reworked to allow a faster implementation of supported products
The launcher has been changed to select supported devices for demo mode


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## Kired (Mar 28, 2015)

Awesome!
This topic helped me dispel doubts about the 6to8!

TKS!


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

Does the Helix software show all the curves in one graph when EQ'ing? That would be helpful to me (to see the other channel's curves, or select ones). I'm a visual person.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

sirbOOm said:


> Does the Helix software show all the curves in one graph when EQ'ing? That would be helpful to me (to see the other channel's curves, or select ones). I'm a visual person.


No. When you EQ, you select a channel at the top and the graph then displays the curve for that channel.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

sirbOOm said:


> Does the Helix software show all the curves in one graph when EQ'ing? That would be helpful to me (to see the other channel's curves, or select ones). I'm a visual person.





subterFUSE said:


> No. When you EQ, you select a channel at the top and the graph then displays the curve for that channel.


Actually the answer to this question is yes. Or at least in 3.10b it is.



So while you are eqing a channel, it will be shown on the graph normally by itself. If you go to the graph selection box to the right of the graph and select the channels then they all will be shown at once. When you switch to a different channel you will need to check the box for the last eqed channel though because it clears the check box for some odd reason.



EDIT_____I just checked the 3.0 software and it also works but when you switch channels it clears all of the check boxes.

So to do what you want, use software version 3.10b. So far it has been a real delight to work with the 3.10b software. Other than my goofy usb port being stupid on my laptop, I have not had any issues like I did with the 3.06 software.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

Oops. Learn somthin' new every day. :laugh:


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

Kired said:


> Awesome!
> This topic helped me dispel doubts about the 6to8!
> 
> TKS!


The 6to8 is an incredible product. My descision to change to the helix should not take away from the 6to8 at all. The DSP pro just works better for my particular setup. 

I would compare the two DSP's to the Apple vs Android debate. Despite my pure hate for Apple as a company it there are still millions of people that love their products. 

You really cannot go wrong with either device. I suspect that if I had changed my head unit out before I made this thread, well, I do not think I would have even switched. 

Both devices have quirks. 
Both devices are top tier devices though.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

Here is a reply to a PM that I got about my little comparison. I figured there was too much information in my reply to just not share my findings with the masses. I hope that you can see that this is a very honest and transparent comparison between the two DSP's. They really are both very good DSP's and they both have lots of strengths and very few weaknesses IMHO. This is by no means the end of my review. I am sure that I am missing some stuff that I will add as I think about it. For now, I am digging the Helix DSP Pro for what I am currently working with. I would however have no reservations about running the Mosconi in a different setup. (perhaps a setup with no rear fill)

So here goes.......



> Hey ndm,
> 
> OK I got my speakers and amps installed now. Now its time to pick between my DSP. Are you still thinking the Helix Pro is the way to go? Just wanted to hear your thoughts before I commit to buying accessories for each of them. Thanks


Man! I really would have a hard time picking the best. 

I will say that Mosconi has IMO easier factory integration. I did not need the voltage divider with it. 

Helix has more features and eq bands.

mosconi has wireless tuning and the android app. Both of which I miss dearly.

Helix although wired is quicker from loading the software to actually being able to change stuff. 

Mosconi IMO has a better and simpler mounting method and IMO looks better visually.

Helix looks pretty good too but I do not like the double flange.

Mosconi software is simple but laid out in different tabs.


Helix software is pretty simple and mostly laid out on one screen.

I do like the mosconi feature where you can upload the settings from the DSP (console) to the software as well as load the settings from the software to the DSP.

I really like the instant changes in the Helix software. All changes are immediate where the mosconi changes require you to click in a different field to make the changes.

I like that the helix does not mute when scrolling the time delay. What I mean is that when you delay a channel by lets say from 1ms to 1.1 ms there is a very slight momentary mute. Where it matters to me is for setting time delay by ear. As you are listening for the Doppler effect, the slight mute is very distracting. On the Helix there is no delay unless you are scrolling realy fast. (like with a mouse wheel).

The Mosconi App and accessories gives it some points. I believe in never making a consumer wait for the accessories for the product. 

Helix case is more customize able. You can switch the guts of the actual unit so that the rca's are on a different side while the logo is right side up. I never checked this out on the Mosconi to be absolutely fair though.

Mosconi has more voltage input on the low level. My head unit puts out 5v but the helix only accepts 4v max. They also have more 8v output as compared to the 6v out on the helix. My JL amps can accept up to 8v so I probably could have used the higher output and been able to lower my gains even further. I am not saying that I have any issues with the lower voltage but If we are doing a fair comparison then I must be honest. 

Helix comes with the optical input, and digital coax input. Definitely more value there. Even though the Mosconi retail price is cheaper, it ends up being more expensive if you take the optical inputs into account. 

Helix software support has been Awesome.....not to say that Mosconi has not. Helix has just really shined to me in that area. You can really tell that they are listening.

Now that you can use your own mic calibration file with the helix built in rta software, I have to give them points for that. Also they have auto eq going for them too so even more props. Have not used it extensively but It does work. You can even put your own house curve in there and match your eq to that. Pretty slick there.

The phase adjustments on the Helix are nice to have. I will admit that I really am not using them any more because I really complicated my tune by screwing the adjustments up. I will use them later once I really get the hang of how to use them vs simple TA. 

I originally got the Helix so that I am able to run full 3way plus rears and a sub. I have since changed my head unit and it sounds sooooooo much better with the new head unit that I have not added the rears yet. SOOOOOO......at the moment I am only using 4 of the 5 output pairs. I will be adding the rear fill once I change out my midbass to a much more robust 8 inch MB. 


I definitely did not like that using highlevel inputs on the helix, you are stuck with either up to 10 volts input or between 10 and 20 volt input. Also the 10-20 v input did not work as it should have. Basically my factory amp put out about 8 volts on the surround channels and 19volts on the sub channel. Technically I should have been able to switch the jumper to select 10 to 20v and it should have worked. Not so. For some odd reason it would not accept the 19volts from the sub channel without lighting up the clipping LED. I had to build a voltage divider to cut the voltage in half. They need a way to be able to set each channel input sensitivity jumper independently. They also should figure out why the unit clipped at anything above 12 volts. Mosconi has their inputs independent and therefore had no problems with this issue.


So there you have it. I am going to copy paste this info into the thread for others to view and hopefully help them with their choice of these two top tier DSP's. Hope I have made your decision easier!! I know I probably made it harder though. LOL!!!





EDIT__??__

Forgot to add....
I hate the small connectors on the helix for the high level input. They are so small and do not hold very well at all. Seriously while doing the input adjustments on the inside of the unit, you have to have the thing connected. The wires came loose out of those tiny connectors on multiple occasions while trying to move the DSP around. I almost had a temper tantrum one day because of it. If you are like me ran speaker wires from a location where you had to tap into the factory wires then you probably ran to the store and got a spool if wire to do so. Maybe you did what I did and just ran 14 guage color coded cable that has been twisted together with a drill like I did. ( I see Bing and plenty other top tier installers doing the same) Well the 14 guage wire just barely fit into the connectors. The power/ground/remote connector is bigger and had no problem fitting the wire so I just do not understand why they could not just stick with the same size connector. Someone told me that it was to keep people from plugging in the high level connectors into the power location and vice versa. Well that makes no sense. The power connector has 4 spots for wire. The high level connectors have 8 spots each so that logic does not make sense to me. Either way, I do not have this issue any more because I am running low level with the new head unit. I still think that it is stupid how they designed that section though.

Also.....I wish I did not have to completely un install the unit and open the case just to set the input gains. It aint a deal breaker but it is kind of a pain in the arse to have to remove the whole Helix DSP as well as the cables just to remove the metal underbelly plate so that you can adjust and optimize your input gains on the processor. I a running the processor with the underbelly plate removed to allow easier access but you still have to dismount the unit. I mounted my Mosconi unit one time and never once had to move it for any reason until I sold it in order to purchase the Helix.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

I have not been able to use the Phase adjustments with much success yet, despite many hours trying.

All of mine are left at zero degrees, and I've just used time alignment to match everything.



The one thing I did do with phase was to put my midbass into "Low" mode. When assigned as "Low", the phase section only gives you zero or 180 degree invert options. The 11.5 degree adjustments are disabled.

After I had set time alignment for my horns and midbass, I wanted to confirm that the mids were aligned with the horns. I set the mids to zero phase, and ran a test sweep with REW with all speakers playing. Then I linked the midbass channels and inverted their phase 180 degrees and measured again. The second measurement showed a big dip in response at the crossover point. That confirmed to me that the zero degree phase was the correct alignment because the first measurement had a smooth response at the crossover point. No dip.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

subterFUSE said:


> I have not been able to use the Phase adjustments with much success yet, despite many hours trying.
> 
> All of mine are left at zero degrees, and I've just used time alignment to match everything.
> 
> ...


Same here. I was messing around with the Phase adjustments since I have had the darn thing and I never got it to where I liked it. Last tuning session I zeroed everything out and have been happy since. I think I need to learn more about what the machine is doing when you change the phase. I plan to do some testing.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

I have spent many, many hours working with phase.... studying phase.... measuring phase. I feel like I have a fairly good understanding of the concept and how things like crossovers, EQ and time alignment can affect it.

That said, using the variable phase controls in the DSP Pro have not yielded me good sounding results yet.


To answer your question about how the phase control work on the DSP Pro, they are done by using a second order allpass filter with variable corner frequency. The corner frequency is based on the high pass filter setting for that channel, and then adjusted automatically when you move the phase slider.


I was sitting here at my desk today just thinking about why I haven't been having much luck with the phase angle adjustments. I had a couple of ideas spring to mind:

1. The phase angle adjustments are meant to be an alternative to time alignment. Thus far, I have always been using the time alignment to get my speakers working together for the driver's seat only. While playing with the tune in my car recently, I noticed that I could center my stereo image by 2 methods. Method 1 was to invert the phase on one of my horns. Method 2 was to apply about .70 ms of delay to the driver side horn. Eric Stevens made a point in response that either method was acceptable, but the inverted phase solution would be better for 2 seats.

So, maybe the phase adjustment is a way to do it with less time alignment?


2. Perhaps the phase angle adjustments are better suited for asymmetric crossovers? I generally have always used Linkwitz 24 slopes because I like the simplicity of their phase alignment and tendency to sum flat at the crossover point. But what if I were using different filters that don't directly align? Maybe that's where a small-increment phase angle adjustment might come in handy?



I don't know.... just spitballin'


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## alexim (Jun 10, 2015)

....


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