# NEW HOTTNESS



## jayhawkblk (May 29, 2007)

The pics say it all


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## braves6117 (Feb 13, 2008)

damn.....!


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## nepl29 (Mar 25, 2007)

Marquies,
Are you putting them in the 530? i saw that you getting rid of your rainbows. What are you gonna use for mids?


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## dragons_ghost (Feb 15, 2008)

oh those are some yummy looking speakers! give us a review when you get them in.

dg


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

holy crap


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## doitor (Aug 16, 2007)

I'm drooling right now.

Jorge.


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## dtviewer (Dec 18, 2006)

OOOOOoooooohhhhhhh


Very nice........


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Sweetness


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

wow! very nice expensive stuff ya got there!


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## jayhawkblk (May 29, 2007)

nepl29 said:


> Marquies,
> Are you putting them in the 530? i saw that you getting rid of your rainbows. What are you gonna use for mids?


Yes Nelson they are going in the 530. I am using the dyn 152's for the mids.


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## CAMSHAFT (Apr 7, 2006)

Get it installed!!!


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## ViperVin (Mar 15, 2008)

dayum, thread title explains it quite accurately


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## tc3k101 (Apr 23, 2008)

ViperVin said:


> dayum, thread title explains it quite accurately


x2 on that


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## Kenny_Cox (Sep 9, 2007)

Very nice, I will be looking forward to that review!


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

I'm pretty sure I just left a wet spot on my sofa


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## craigzter (Apr 26, 2008)

pure secks


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## circa40 (Jan 20, 2008)

those are damn sexy. Congrats on the purchase


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## BlackSapphire (Apr 16, 2008)

Very nice! PLEASE post pics of the install. Did I say please? I meant it.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

w00t ! Bout time !


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## BLD MOVS (Sep 23, 2007)

Congrats man. Like everyone else, waiting patiently for a review but I can't wait for the 1200 & Ultimo 12 comparison!

Just curious, where did you get a chance to audition before you purchased them?


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Hmmm, sees thread called 'NEW HOTTNESS', 
clicks on it, 
sees pictures of way too expensive drivers followed by lots of ooooh's and aaaaah's, 
confirms that this is DIYMA,

very very confused   

greetz,
a girl that is in no way impressed by huge price-tags or looks, aka Isabelle


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## Fixtion (Aug 25, 2006)

Candisa said:


> Hmmm, sees thread called 'NEW HOTTNESS',
> clicks on it,
> sees pictures of way too expensive drivers followed by lots of ooooh's and aaaaah's,
> confirms that this is DIYMA,
> ...


new hotness, not impressive to the "objective" non-owners.

make sense.

*-fixtion*


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

My post was in no way intended to be humorous or negative, it's just an objective conclusion


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

Candisa said:


> My post was in no way intended to be humorous or negative, it's just an objective conclusion


Well it wasn't humorous, so at least you got that point across.

If I had the Esotars I would be a postin pics too. Unfortunately my only shot at them would be to knock him out when he isn't looking and stealing them.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

So you are saying you would spend 1600$ on tweeters to put in a car and, while driving because that's what cars made for, hear soooo much more detail compared to a set of tweeters that cost half the price or less?

The most expensive components I ever bought were DLS Iridium 6" midwoofers... sold them and bought myself an entire Peerless 3-way frontset for the same price I gave for those Iridiums...

greetz,
Isabelle


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## Autophile (Nov 10, 2007)

Law of diminishing returns are applicable more in High End car audio than anywhere else because we are dealing with noisy environment.

The minor details we hear in the system while the car is stationary car starts disappearing in the moving car.

I think it makes more sense in putting high end audio in expensive cars as they are more isolated to external noises traffic / wind / tyres / engine.


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## BlackSapphire (Apr 16, 2008)

Candisa said:


> So you are saying you would spend 1600$ on tweeters to put in a car and, while driving because that's what cars made for, hear soooo much more detail compared to a set of tweeters that cost half the price or less?
> 
> The most expensive components I ever bought were DLS Iridium 6" midwoofers... sold them and bought myself an entire Peerless 3-way frontset for the same price I gave for those Iridiums...
> 
> ...


I would love to see pics of your peerless setup. PM if you'd like so we can keep this thread on topic.

Thanks.


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## jayhawkblk (May 29, 2007)

This post was not about how much the drivers cost. It was purely to post pics of some great looking drivers. I know the sound will be orgasmic I own the esotecs in my other car. It is not a bragging thing it was just to share with others. I have been blessed in my life so I can usally buy what I want within reason. I understand your point of not spending more it you dont have to. First off you have no idea what I paid for these drivers. I am the type of person if I want something and I can afford it I buy it. Sorry if this thread upset you. To all others thanks and once I get them broke in I will install them and give my review.


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## Beerhero (Feb 25, 2008)

Nice steal!


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

Candisa said:


> So you are saying you would spend 1600$ on tweeters to put in a car and, while driving because that's what cars made for, hear soooo much more detail compared to a set of tweeters that cost half the price or less?
> 
> The most expensive components I ever bought were DLS Iridium 6" midwoofers... sold them and bought myself an entire Peerless 3-way frontset for the same price I gave for those Iridiums...
> 
> ...


If I had the money to spend on it, and I wanted it at the time, then absolutely yes. Why not buy something if you want it? Why criticize people who buy things that they do want? No point.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

No matter what someone buys, someone else is going to come along and tell them "you could have bought _________ for half the price and it would sound just a good". Perhaps that is true, perhaps it is false. Regardless, we all spend our money as we each see fit.


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## Whiterabbit (May 26, 2006)

you mean no matter what you buy, someone IN HERE is gonna say you could have done it cheaper.

Way to go dynaudio for making flanges impossible to countersink without a gap 

Of course, noone will ever be confused exactly WHAT drivers those are once they have seen them! 

Will Bing be putting it together? I may need to arrange a "random" drop in to "say hi" ;p


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

Autophile said:


> Law of diminishing returns are applicable more in High End car audio than anywhere else because we are dealing with noisy environment.
> 
> The minor details we hear in the system while the car is stationary car starts disappearing in the moving car.
> 
> I think it makes more sense in putting high end audio in expensive cars as they are more isolated to external noises traffic / wind / tyres / engine.


 Show me 1 car that's silent enough to make it worth the spend....... really. External noise will ALWAYS affect the sound. Unless you're throwing money at it. But in that case other problems will occur. So I still don't see the point.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

XC-C30 said:


> Show me 1 car that's silent enough to make it worth the spend....... really. External noise will ALWAYS affect the sound. Unless you're throwing money at it. But in that case other problems will occur. So I still don't see the point.


In all reality, all the equipment we buy is worthless when you throw it in the car. It doesn't matter if you spend 15 bucks or 1500 bucks. At the end of the day, if this is what he wants to buy we can't stop him. No sense in making posts about someones buying habits when this whole forum centers around a luxury hobby anyway.

It's his money so let him spend it his way.


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

havok20222 said:


> If I had the money to spend on it, and I wanted it at the time, then absolutely yes. Why not buy something if you want it? Why criticize people who buy things that they do want? No point.


Thjrowing money out of the window maybe? If you can find something equal for far less, you got the rest of the money to maybe spend on something else you want? So yup, still pretty pointless of spending that amount of money, even if you have the ability too. Having money doesn't mean you have to spend it. Don't know if you know, but money can make more money..... It's called saving or an investment.


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## zucchero (Mar 25, 2008)

thanks jayhawkblk for those lovely pics.i am sure those will sound fabulous.
the esoteric series are the best set of compoents i have ever listened to.i am sure the esotars would be an absolute KILLERS!!
congrats.waitin for the review.


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## hibuhibu (Sep 11, 2006)

Perhaps he spent money because he saw value???(including performance, or maybe just a self satisfaction)
All I got to say here is
That is a very sexy looking speakers for sure.
Have fun with them. Let us know how they perform soon.


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## filtor1 (Apr 24, 2008)

Wow, just wow. Thoose look beautiful! I can't wait to see these installed. Please review when you get a chance. These may be a possible replacement next year for my Rainbow Powerline's.

Thanks for sharing!


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Whiterabbit said:


> you mean no matter what you buy, someone IN HERE is gonna say you could have done it cheaper.
> 
> Way to go dynaudio for making flanges impossible to countersink without a gap
> 
> ...


Oh but there are flanges that fit it to make it completely round !

Nope, I think Bings work is done, these will virtually drop in.


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## nauc (Sep 12, 2006)

dyns... YUM!!! 



i expect premium install pics soon, VERY SOON!!!!


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

X2 on all the ohhhs and ahhhs. Yess these are well built drivers but this is in no way the usual DIYMA response. I remember the days when the diyer would be hard to impress because he would get a larger boner looking at the new Seas reed paper cones. That is a significant change to the line-up in both in cone composition and motor evolution through the addition of shorting rings in the standard line. By comparison these Dyns look very familiar to me.

I think there is a departure from the said diminishing returns by spending less on drivers and the popular culture that I once knew where a fraction of the cost would give you comparative performance or better yet superior results. 

Along these lines the only thing there is to comment on is the new basket design. It would make for a much more difficult design and would likely push install in the hands of authorized shops. We all know good installs go a long way to prove brand superiority.


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

All I can say: The guys at dynaudio did a pretty good job spying on JL and peerless as far as the sub goes. And comaring the specs of the esotar² to an XXLS it makes it even less worthy to buy in my opinion.

To each his own, I guess...


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

That's exactly what I was trying to say in my first post, glad I'm not alone in this big 'bigger/more expensive/more bling bling is better' world!

greetz,
Isabelle


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## Diru (May 23, 2006)

Sucks to be you if your going to try and flush mount any of those drivers.


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## videocrew (Mar 18, 2006)

To the OP:

How dare you come onto this forum, a respectable place for folks to gather and discuss their car stereo equipment, and have the AUDACITY to try and start a discussion about your car stereo equipment?

You should be ashamed of yourself! Clearly you are terrible at managing money, since you managed to accumulate enough of it to buy a very nice vehicle and expensive stereo equipment. You shouldn't feel blessed to have such nice things, you should feel blessed to have a place like this to come to so that people who know nothing about your financial situation can tell you what's best for you!

Thank goodness I responded to the flurry of emails DIYMA has sent me regarding not having posted in a while. I had a gaping hole in my life that could only be filled by a bunch of loudmouth hypocrites on the internet who take the time to post on a board about their love of car stereo equipment, but ONLY that equipment which costs less than their own. Rest assured I will be hanging around this board more often in the future!


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Candisa said:


> That's exactly what I was trying to say in my first post, glad I'm not alone in this big 'bigger/more expensive/more bling bling is better' world!
> 
> greetz,
> Isabelle


Says the person running Genesis amps.


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## videocrew (Mar 18, 2006)

One more thing: if Dynaudio won't accept your return on these when you suddenly discover that you can't flush-mount them, I'll probably take them off your hands. I mean obviously you spent a couple grand on a set of speakers and gave no thought to your ability to install them right? Just PM me when you're ready to sell, I'll start a thread making sure it's OK with everyone here to spend my money this way, and we'll get down to business.

Looking forward to hearing from you!


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Diru said:


> Sucks to be you if your going to try and flush mount any of those drivers.





videocrew said:


> One more thing: if Dynaudio won't accept your return on these when you suddenly discover that you can't flush-mount them, I'll probably take them off your hands. I mean obviously you spent a couple grand on a set of speakers and gave no thought to your ability to install them right? Just PM me when you're ready to sell, I'll start a thread making sure it's OK with everyone here to spend my money this way, and we'll get down to business.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing from you!





6spdcoupe said:


> Oh but there are flanges that fit it to make it completely round !


They will also be behind grills. That in itself will also make the flush 'issue' not so much an 'issue'.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

ca90ss said:


> Says the person running Genesis amps.


And the other person who is so concerned about how other people spend their own money appears to be running McIntosh amps.


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

videocrew said:


> One more thing: if Dynaudio won't accept your return on these when you suddenly discover that you can't flush-mount them, I'll probably take them off your hands. I mean obviously you spent a couple grand on a set of speakers and gave no thought to your ability to install them right? Just PM me when you're ready to sell, I'll start a thread making sure it's OK with everyone here to spend my money this way, and we'll get down to business.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing from you!


jldksfjalskdjflsadjf - accident post.... move on. Nothing to see here.


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> Says the person running Genesis amps.


clearly you don't get it.

And I'm running McIntosh..... so what? As far as drivers go, there just are cheaper ways to achieve the same level. As far as amps go, choices are far more limited.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

XC-C30 said:


> clearly you don't get it.
> 
> And I'm running McIntosh..... so what? As far as drivers go, there just are cheaper ways to achieve the same level. As far as amps go, choices are far more limited.


LMAO!


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

I know what Xenia paid for her McIntosh amps and I know what I paid for my Genesis amps. No way I would ever pay the normal price of Genesis amps!

I don't think those Esotar2's are 11 years old and bought from somebody that doesn't know what they have in hands, do they?

greetz,
Isabelle


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

bassfromspace said:


> LMAO!


X 2 !


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Candisa said:


> I know what Xenia paid for her McIntosh amps and I know what I paid for my Genesis amps. No way I would ever pay the normal price of Genesis amps!
> 
> I don't think those Esotar2's are 11 years old and bought from somebody that doesn't know what they have in hands, do they?
> 
> ...


I suppose you have a clue what he paid for those drivers? No? Oh, ok move along then with your judgements upon others and how they spend their money.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

XC-C30 said:


> As far as amps go, choices are far more limited.


How so? I'd bet I can name just as many amp manufacturers as you can speaker manufacturers. I'm sure you could have found a comparable amp for cheaper. You should be ashamed of yourself for owning such an expensive amplifier that could be outperformed by something cheaper.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

In your thread about the Esotar drivers, you mentioned retail prices, now there's this thread...

Logic thinking of somebody new: good sound costs big money... As far as I remember, that wasn't the original spirit of DIYMA, was it?

I have 'Genesis' in my signature... Genesis also makes cheaper amplifiers, there's also 'Peerless' in my signature and when you'd check out my project, you would see I clearly stated those Gennies are pretty old, I bought them for a nice price and the whole concept of my install is prooving that you do NOT have to spend big money to get a great sound...

Again, all I wanted to say is that a lot of 'ooohs' and 'aaahs' on some pictures of very overpriced drivers is not something I'd expect from DIYMA...

greetz,
Isabelle


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> How so? I'd bet I can name just as many amp manufacturers as you can speaker manufacturers. I'm sure you could have found a comparable amp for cheaper. You should be ashamed of yourself for owning such an expensive amplifier that could be outperformed by something cheaper.


show me 1 amp that has the same cleanlinnss in output and I'd be happy to reconsider oh.... and that costs 700euro's new


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

XC-C30 said:


> show me 1 amp that has the same cleanlinnss in output and I'd be happy to reconsider oh.... and that costs 700euro's new


I could name a hundred cheaper amps that will sound the same. What's your point?


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

So you can give me an equally clean amp that puts out 2x100watts for 250? and an equally clean amp that puts out 4x50 for 500? Be my guest


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## videocrew (Mar 18, 2006)

ca90ss said:


> How so? I'd bet I can name just as many amp manufacturers as you can speaker manufacturers. I'm sure you could have found a comparable amp for cheaper. You should be ashamed of yourself for owning such an expensive amplifier that could be outperformed by something cheaper.


Ugh, now you've done it. You fed the troll and the thread is now completely shot to hell. Good luck getting it back on topic now. 


> show me 1 amp that has the same cleanlinnss in output and I'd be happy to reconsider oh.... and that costs 700euro's new


See what happens?


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

XC-C30 said:


> show me 1 amp that has the same cleanlinnss in output and I'd be happy to reconsider oh.... and that costs 700euro's new


700.00 EUR = 1,096.34 USD 

That really does limit the number of options to......a whole bunch.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

XC-C30 said:


> show me 1 amp that has the same cleanlinnss in output and I'd be happy to reconsider oh.... and that costs 700euro's new


Hmmm TRU S44 first comes to mind for a fraction of the price, then a Billet. This is just off the top of my head since the comparison of cost factor has recently been discussed.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Pssst, amps don't have sonic signatures here on neo-DIYMA, I guess we are very stupid to think we hear a difference


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

ClinesSelect said:


> 700.00 EUR = 1,096.34 USD
> 
> That really does limit the number of options to......a whole bunch.


Exactly, quite easy to do.


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

ClinesSelect said:


> 700.00 EUR = 1,096.34 USD
> 
> That really does limit the number of options to......a whole bunch.


guess you forget that european prices are way higher huh? 1100euro's hardly will get you anything that meets up to par


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Candisa said:


> Pssst, amps don't have sonic signatures here on neo-DIYMA, I guess we are very stupid to think we hear a difference


Care to tell me which one of these areas your Genesis and McIntosh excels in that a cheaper amp doesn't;
Power
Gain
Noise 
Distortion and 
Frequency response


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

A Tru Billet really is as clean as a Mc huh? Luckily I was ordered to read a topic that said I had the right to be critical...

greetz,
Isabelle


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

I believe most of the concerns brought up in this thread are geared towards the DIYMA crowd more so than the OP. As of late the massive influx of new blood drew a lot of marketing clout. It doesn't appear that users are aware of how rewarding the diy speaker market is. I recommend a closer look at raw drivers to anyone because that is the treatment I was thankfully subject to. Is preaching what you practice an instance of hypocrisy? 

I just miss the good ole days when we dissected engineering marvels instead of living on 'pictures are everything' mentality.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> Care to tell me which one of these areas your Genesis and McIntosh excels in that a cheaper amp doesn't;
> Power
> Gain
> Noise
> ...


Do you believe in matching amplifiers and speakers to eachother based on sonic signature? If your answer to this question is 'no', end of discussion...

greetz,
Isabelle


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Candisa said:


> Do you believe in matching amplifiers and speakers to eachother based on sonic signature? If your answer to this question is 'no', end of discussion...
> 
> greetz,
> Isabelle


Care to answer my question before you run away?


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> I believe most of the concerns brought up in this thread are geared towards the DIYMA crowd more so than the OP. As of late the massive influx of new blood drew a lot of marketing clout. It doesn't appear that users are aware of how rewarding the diy speaker market is. I recommend a closer look at raw drivers to anyone because that is the treatment I was thankfully subject to. Is preaching what you practice an instance of hypocrisy?
> 
> I just miss the good ole days when we dissected engineering marvels instead of living on 'pictures are everything' mentality.


THANK YOU!

greetz,
Isabelle


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## Tonyguy (Nov 15, 2007)

all I have to say is that those are some beautiful drivers.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> Care to answer my question before you run away?


Sonic signature of an amp is a combination of frequency response, distortion (including noise) and you forgot one thing, output impedance. You can only say an amp sounds the same when that combination is exactly the same compared to the reference amplifier.

This is DIYMA, I don't give a **** about power and gain...

greetz,
Isabelle


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> Care to answer my question before you run away?


sure....

TRU billet 475:

response: 10-50KHz
THD+N: 0.1%
SNR: 100db


Now for the MC 440:

response: 20-20K (so a + on the tru
THD+N: 0.005
SNR: 110


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

By the way, who says the 'frequency response' numbers of that tru are rated with the same tolerance as on the Mc?

The only way to compare frequency response is by comparing curves, not numbers...

greetz,
Isabelle


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Candisa said:


> you forgot one thing, output impedance.


Don't tell me you're going to argue the usefulness of damping factor as a spec for determining amp sonics.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

XC-C30 said:


> sure....
> 
> TRU billet 475:
> 
> ...



Now can you tell me how those different specs relate to a difference in sound between the two?


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Oh, and let me to make a statement: 
'Power, Damping Factor, Frequency Response numbers and THD don't mean anything without the *proper* description of the measurement circumstances'

greetz,
Isabelle


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

BTW..... since you wanted to argue on the price..... the tru billet costs 1099euro's overhere  My Mc440 does better at not even half the price..... Nowa you again


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> Now can you tell me how those different specs relate to a difference in sound between the two?


If those SNR and THD numbers are measured at the same input signal and output voltage, the Mc is definately a more clean sounding amp while the TRU will probably sound a bit warmer...

Since amplifier manufacturers never show frequency response curves, there's only one way to compare: by ear!

greetz,
Isabelle


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Before there was DIYMA, 99% of the early members of this forum came from ECA. DIYMA (as I see it) was not made necessarily to promote DIY setups over pre-packaged setups but to promote good sound in general. That sometimes involved budget setups but this forum and it's members have ALWAYS been about good sound whether you spent $250 on Peerless or $2500 on Rainbow Plats.

Just a history lesson for the new boots.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Candisa said:


> If those SNR and THD numbers are measured at the same input signal and output voltage, the Mc is definately a more clean sounding amp while the TRU will probably sound a bit warmer...
> 
> Since amplifier manufacturers never show frequency response curves, there's only one way to compare: by ear!
> 
> ...


So you're telling me a difference between .1%THD+N and .005%THD+N is audible when it's widely accepted the threshold of human hearing is around 1%THD?


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

bassfromspace said:


> Before there was DIYMA, 99% of the early members of this forum came from ECA. DIYMA (as I see it) was not made necessarily to promote DIY setups over pre-packaged setups but to promote good sound in general. That sometimes involved budget setups but this forum and it's members have ALWAYS been about good sound whether you spent $250 on Peerless or $2500 on Rainbow Plats.
> 
> Just a history lesson for the new boots.


Very true. Would you just as easily agree with me that car audio branded drivers have generally been found to be inferior and in many cases high end car speakers were found to be nothing more than rebadged home audio drivers?


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

When that .1% THD is measured at 1W @ 4ohms and that .005% THD is measured at full power... My answer is yes

Even if you don't hear it as distortion, you'll notice it in warmth.

greetz,
Isabelle


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Candisa said:


> When that .1% THD is measured at 1W @ 4ohms and that .005% THD is measured at full power... My answer is yes
> 
> Even if you don't hear it as distortion, you'll notice it in warmth.
> 
> ...


You just don't get it do you?
Amplifier sonics, science vs. religion. Some people will never learn.
I know a great way for you to make $10,000


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

I do get it... it's an audioforum, audio = sound, sound = something that you hear...

What seams more logic, following your ears? Or science?

And tell me how to make 10.000$ because I could really use that (and no, not for caraudio or other luxurious materialisme)

greetz,
Isabelle


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Candisa said:


> And tell me how to make 10.000$ because I could really use that (and no, not for caraudio or other luxurious materialisme)
> 
> greetz,
> Isabelle


http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

great for you if you don't hear the difference in amplification. Go run a $10 walmart amp now


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

I think that guy must be pretty broke by now, I dare to say that I can build a car, no time alignment, no equalizing, only matching the gains of the amps and make it sound totally different with only a different set of amps, same tonal balance, same volume level!

Why do I dare to say that? Because I did it before, double blind, tonal balance and volume levels set with an SPL and RTA meter. For your information this was Steg QM versus Kenwood KAC-xxx1 on a Cerwin Vega V-maX 12" sub, Focal Polyglass 165V2 mids and Dynaudio MD100 tweets. I could not hear or see if or if not the other person switched amps, guess what, listened randomly 5 times to the same song at each amplifier-rack... 10 times spot on.

Oh, by the way, small surprise, the Kenwoods sounded better on that system

greetz,
Isabelle


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Candisa said:


> I think that guy must be pretty broke by now


I guess you missed the part where no one has ever successfully completed the challenge.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

If I wasn't so sure it's just a hoax put up by a big mouth, I was there right now


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Candisa said:


> If I wasn't so sure it's just a hoax put up by a big mouth, I was there right now


I'd hardly call Richard Clark a hoax or a big mouth.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Somebody interested in Genesis amplifiers? I'm switching to Pyramid


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

> Richard Clark was not involved in writing this document.


Hmmm...


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Candisa said:


> Hmmm...


He's still the one who came up with the testing method and rules so it still applies.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

cvjoint said:


> Very true. Would you just as easily agree with me that car audio branded drivers have generally been found to be inferior and in many cases high end car speakers were found to be nothing more than rebadged home audio drivers?


I agree with you partially. While home drivers may be somewhat superior, install will ultimately determine the quality of sound that you get out of your setup. You also have to take into account the fact that DIY market is quite a bit larger than it was in the beginnings of car audio thanks to China and the internet. We have a ton of quality offering available to us. With that said, we no longer have to depend on car audio manufacturers to spoon feed us products. Variety has greatly expanded our possibilities


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## ViperVin (Mar 15, 2008)

Candisa said:


> If I wasn't so sure it's just a hoax put up by a big mouth, I was there right now


Richard Clark's challenge started in 2005 and is pretty well known across the car audio forums. As far as I know, no one has yet won the $10k.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

ViperVin said:


> Richard Clark's challenge started in 2005 and is pretty well known across the car audio forums. As far as I know, no one has yet won the $10k.


It started alot earlier than 2005.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

bassfromspace said:


> I agree with you partially. While home drivers may be somewhat superior, install will ultimately determine the quality of sound that you get out of your setup. You also have to take into account the fact that DIY market is quite a bit larger than it was in the beginnings of car audio thanks to China and the internet. We have a ton of quality offering available to us. With that said, we no longer have to depend on car audio manufacturers to spoon feed us products. Variety has greatly expanded our possibilities


Come on now... let's keep install fixed when we compare, we are talking about science here 

As for prevalence of diy drivers you must be joking right? Are you forgetting the Scandinavians? Big mistake, Seas is the mother of all...


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## 96dak (Jan 28, 2008)

in 2004 he said he'd been doing it for about 15 years.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

cvjoint said:


> Come on now... let's keep install fixed when we compare, we are talking about science here
> 
> As for prevalence of diy drivers you must be joking right? Are you forgetting the Scandinavians? Big mistake, Seas is the mother of all...


You can't keep the install fixed. All speakers don't work to their best abilities in the same setup. If we were to take a set of speakers and place them in optimized installs, I still stand by my previous statement.

I think you may have misinterpreted my response concerning the DIY market. I'm not knocking Seas or Scan-Speak or their products at all. Neither company, however, is the end-all of DIY speakers and comparable performance can be found for much cheaper.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Well I don't care....those speakers are pure HOTNESS.

Would I pay $1600 for a pair of tweeters? Hell no! 

But I'll take 'em if you want to give 'em to me.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

bassfromspace said:


> You can't keep the install fixed. All speakers don't work to their best abilities in the same setup. If we were to take a set of speakers and place them in optimized installs, I still stand by my previous statement.
> 
> I think you may have misinterpreted my response concerning the DIY market. I'm not knocking Seas or Scan-Speak or their products at all. Neither company, however, is the end-all of DIY speakers and comparable performance can be found for much cheaper.


So you are of the opinion that car speakers are always optimized for car envirionment which I think it's hardly the case. It's not tough to find home audio speakers that work well in small boxes and if the parameters don't quite match a bit of eq on the low end is all you need. Besides, there is always the IB option  Aside from the Seas Lotus and a few others most car speakers are just...lame. This argument is useless, it's just getting us sidetracked here.

What I meant to say is that the DIY market was there to begin with Seas and Peerless more than half century ago. Heck, other than my LCYs I don't know if I've used any drivers made in China. It's been US, Norway, Danemark, Germany, and Israel. You would also have a hard time arguing for your point with Seas and Scan-Speak performance at lower prices. I hope you can give a few examples. Even the more expensive top tier lineups like Excel and Revelator while expensive they have stellar performance stats that remain very much unmatched by any offerings especially cheaper ones.


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

Nice drivers, you can get diy ones on par or better for alot less. Thanks for the entertaining debate.


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## 69cents (Mar 21, 2008)

Hi jayhawkblk, does that beautiful mid & tweet comes with a cove grill? Can you post pictures, thx


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

drake78 said:


> Nice drivers, you can get diy ones on par or better for alot less. Thanks for the entertaining debate.


What some are trying to say all along so thank you sir that you're one of those that gets the picture


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## videocrew (Mar 18, 2006)

drake78 said:


> Nice drivers, you can get diy ones on par or better for alot less. Thanks for the entertaining debate.


Please describe the circumstances in which you have heard the new Dynaudio drivers and which drivers you consider to be better, how, and under what conditions.

Otherwise you're just full of it.


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

I'll fill that one in for you.

I heard the tweeter in a rewarded installer's democar..... Yes they are good drivers and no, they aren't worth their price. As far as the subs go. Can't say I heard them, but based on specs, no, to me it's not worth $1.5K. I could imagine the sound being so much better than an XLS that would make it worth paying nearly 7 times its price.

By the way.... That same guy is now building a new democar, assumably with a full esotar² setup (not sure, but we'll see in a couple of weeks probably). And yes, I expect it to sound good, but not ten times the price of a diy-setup worth-good


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> You just don't get it do you?
> Amplifier sonics, science vs. religion. Some people will never learn.
> I know a great way for you to make $10,000


Hate to argue with you, but have you read richard clark's rules? I still don't understand why everyone quote's this test as proof that all amps sound the same. His rules more or less say they don't. They say that the amp cannot be driven to clipping. Just about everyone on this forum clips their amp whether they like to admit it or not.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Hate to argue with you, but have you read richard clark's rules? I still don't understand why everyone quote's this test as proof that all amps sound the same. His rules more or less say they don't. They say that the amp cannot be driven to clipping. Just about everyone on this forum clips their amp whether they like to admit it or not.


He doesn't say all amps sound the same. That would be incredibly easy to disprove. What he is saying is that all amps can be made to sound the same when operated below clipping.

I'll be running 100w+ just to my horns alone. I doubt I'll be clipping the amp.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

You will...


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## videocrew (Mar 18, 2006)

XC-C30 said:


> I'll fill that one in for you.
> 
> I heard the tweeter in a rewarded installer's democar..... Yes they are good drivers and no, they aren't worth their price. As far as the subs go. Can't say I heard them, but based on specs, no, to me it's not worth $1.5K. I could imagine the sound being so much better than an XLS that would make it worth paying nearly 7 times its price.
> 
> By the way.... That same guy is now building a new democar, assumably with a full esotar² setup (not sure, but we'll see in a couple of weeks probably). And yes, I expect it to sound good, but not ten times the price of a diy-setup worth-good


Well I really wasn't talking to you above, but since you answered....

Where did you get the idea that stereo quality should scale linearly with price? It's pretty well established that it does not, and that the law of diminishing returns kicks in pretty strongly at some point. What matters is whether a consumer is willing to pay the extra outlay for the improvement. It might not sound 10x better, but if it makes him 10x happier, then he has spent his money well. It's a subjective thing, and for you to come on here and tell people how they should allocate their money with regard to their happiness is frankly a blatant display of arrogance and ignorance. 

I can only hope for your sake that these unfortunate traits are only a part of your e-personality and you don't display them in real life. I can't imagine telling your boss "it's a nice house, but it's certainly not three times as nice as mine!" would do much for your career, nor win you too many friends.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> You will...


[email protected] = [email protected] add 6db for the second driver = 139db
Somehow I doubt I'll be clipping and if I am I'll be deaf at that point and won't be able to hear it anyways.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

videocrew said:


> Well I really wasn't talking to you above, but since you answered....
> 
> Where did you get the idea that stereo quality should scale linearly with price? It's pretty well established that it does not, and that the law of diminishing returns kicks in pretty strongly at some point. What matters is whether a consumer is willing to pay the extra outlay for the improvement. It might not sound 10x better, but if it makes him 10x happier, then he has spent his money well. It's a subjective thing, and for you to come on here and tell people how they should allocate their money with regard to their happiness is frankly a blatant display of arrogance and ignorance.
> 
> I can only hope for your sake that these unfortunate traits are only a part of your e-personality and you don't display them in real life. I can't imagine telling your boss "it's a nice house, but it's certainly not three times as nice as mine!" would do much for your career, nor win you too many friends.



If you want to call out ignorance and arrogance there are two scenarios here. One the buyer spends more because he believes the product is superior - the ignorant type, which for the sake of the buyer we assume it is true most of the time. Two the product is bought for the bling factor - the arrogant type. 

XC-C30 plays the role of the informer. Her information IS good, there are lots of lower distortion drivers on the market, lots of higher output drivers, and lots of tonaly more correct drivers (subjective). I would put in the last category: Seas Magnesium, Scan slitted paper, Boston Z6 carbon fiber cone, Focal W sandwich, Peerless Nomex, Infinity CMMD. Those who appreciate good research will reward accuratelly, ie. the boss gives a raise.

At this point I can only justify price tags of this sort as a good marketing strategy. As the end consumer, how are you going to take advantage of that extra dough? It's deadweight loss to you. I like to think we can make steps towards less differentiation in the car audio industry on marketing alone. Let pure performance advertise and competition drive the prices down. You can simply to this by drawing attention to similar or better drivers that are several times cheaper.


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

videocrew said:


> Well I really wasn't talking to you above, but since you answered....
> 
> Where did you get the idea that stereo quality should scale linearly with price? It's pretty well established that it does not, and that the law of diminishing returns kicks in pretty strongly at some point. What matters is whether a consumer is willing to pay the extra outlay for the improvement. It might not sound 10x better, but if it makes him 10x happier, then he has spent his money well. It's a subjective thing, and for you to come on here and tell people how they should allocate their money with regard to their happiness is frankly a blatant display of arrogance and ignorance.
> 
> I can only hope for your sake that these unfortunate traits are only a part of your e-personality and you don't display them in real life. I can't imagine telling your boss "it's a nice house, but it's certainly not three times as nice as mine!" would do much for your career, nor win you too many friends.


Not trying to tell people what to do...... afterall, it's their friggin money, right? However, I just don't understand why people should do such thing, but I guess that's just me. I'm the type of girl that compares every detail and try to get the best for the buck that suits my needs perfectly. If that would be the esotar²'s, fine, I'd buy 'em if I could, but if they're not, even if I could, I wouldn't buy 'em. I just don't see the purpous in buying rebadged or for that matter copied stuff when I can get on par with something different.

It's your money, do as you wish 

edit: and thanks cvjoint, you clearly get it!


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## CAMSHAFT (Apr 7, 2006)

XC-C30 said:


> I just don't see the purpous in buying rebadged or for that matter copied stuff when I can get on par with something different.


Are you saying that Dynaudio is a copy of another product?


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

XC-C30 said:


> I wouldn't buy 'em. I just don't see the purpous in buying rebadged or for that matter copied stuff when I can get on par with something different.


I would absolutely Love to hear the facts behind the blanket statement. Please share.

And dont approach this with the "well it looks like xxx driver" etc.. I want to see Hard facts to support your claim. You opened the door, now prove your accusation.


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## jayhawkblk (May 29, 2007)

Wow who knew a few pictures would cause such a **** storm.........

It is been fun to sit back and watch this unfold. The purpose of the post was to just share with you all something new that I got. Not to say hey look I spent a lot of money and I could have got Peeless or any other brand you want to through out there. I have been called ignorant and arogant. They funny thing is none of those people have ever spent anytime around me or has even talked to me for that matter. But it is all good with me. I guess the beauty of it all is no of you know what I paid for this stuff you can only assume just becasue you saw a price sheet. I am sorry some of you have such a hard time with my choice of speakers, car, amps, or what ever. 

I have used many drivers in the past. I will give a detailed review of these drivers once I have them broke in. They may be worth the money for some and not for others.

Like I said I just wanted to share something new with you all. So to quote my nine year old daughter " STOP HATE'N"!!!


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

jayhawkblk said:


> Wow who knew a few pictures would cause such a **** storm.........
> 
> It is been fun to sit back and watch this unfold. The purpose of the post was to just share with you all something new that I got. Not to say hey look I spent a lot of money and I could have got Peeless ...
> 
> Like I said I just wanted to share something new with you all. So to quote my nine year old daughter " STOP HATE'N"!!!


This forum could give her class a run for it's money [fourth grade]


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## stereojnky (Mar 17, 2008)

jayhawkblk said:


> Wow who knew a few pictures would cause such a **** storm.........
> 
> They funny thing is none of those people have ever spent anytime around me or has even talked to me for that matter. But it is all good with me. I guess the beauty of it all is no of you know what I paid for this stuff you can only assume just becasue you saw a price sheet.


You took the words right outta my mouth. It seems to me that the only problem that these haters have with your new toys is the price that they "think" that you paid for them. Most people, when given a choice between something cheap and something expensive, will almost always choose the expensive choice if the price tag is taken away.
Let's do a dynaudio giveaway and see how many of these people sign up for a free set...
BTW Those things are freakin' sweet man!!!!!! Let me know when you get tired of 'em.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

jayhawkblk said:


> Wow who knew a few pictures would cause such a **** storm.........
> 
> It is been fun to sit back and watch this unfold. The purpose of the post was to just share with you all something new that I got. Not to say hey look I spent a lot of money and I could have got Peeless or any other brand you want to through out there. I have been called ignorant and arogant. They funny thing is none of those people have ever spent anytime around me or has even talked to me for that matter. But it is all good with me. I guess the beauty of it all is no of you know what I paid for this stuff you can only assume just becasue you saw a price sheet. I am sorry some of you have such a hard time with my choice of speakers, car, amps, or what ever.
> 
> ...


U posted some pictures and the comments weren't quite what you expected. I don't see why you take it personal, most arguments were meant towards the larger audience. Everyone here that criticized Dyn heard them before and were not impressed. 

Nobody hates on you. It just so happens that some of us don't see the special dust on these drivers. Think of it as giving back to the community. I cherish the day when diy driver were introduced to me. Some are a little reluctant to join in on the good stuff.


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

videocrew said:


> Please describe the circumstances in which you have heard the new Dynaudio drivers and which drivers you consider to be better, how, and under what conditions.
> 
> Otherwise you're just full of it.


I rather not get into subjectism.


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

Candisa said:


> When that .1% THD is measured at 1W @ 4ohms and that .005% THD is measured at full power... My answer is yes
> 
> Even if you don't hear it as distortion, you'll notice it in warmth.
> 
> ...


Excuse me, while I temporarily hijack this thread.  Please further inform me with this inticing data. Where did you get this info from? Did you do an actual experiment on it?


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

THD increases when you get more power out of an amplifier. If you take a 2x100W amplifier with a THD of 0.05% at 1W, it's very likely that it will have a THD of >1% at full power.

Even if you pick an amplifier with a THD of 0.5% at full power and another one with a THD of 0.1% at full power, you'll hear a difference, it's very likely that the higher THD amp will sound a bit warmer and the lower THD one will sound a bit more detailed, but that also depends on the frequency response (and by that, I mean the shape of it, not only the limits), the output impedance...

There are hundreds of people that like the sound of a tube amp, while they tend to put out very high THD...

That's the reason why I'm convinced an amps sonic signature has to match with the speakers you connect to it rather than having nice looking numbers on the spec sheet (except for the signal to noise ratio, but as long as thats 100dB or more, it's fine).

On topic: I'm not a hater because of the price I think somebody paid for those drivers. I don't think there is anybody on this board stupid enough to pay the official price for those and I don't think those are bad drivers, I'm just saying the official prices are way too high and you could easily build a system with cheaper drivers that sounds as good, that's all.

PS.: If you'd take the price tag away, I wouldn't pick them because they are normally very expensive, but I would pick them after comparing them with a couple of other drivers and concluding they sound best to me. 
If I could get those for free, I would accept them, but if I found drivers that sound as good or better to me that are cheaper, I wouldn't hesitate to put them on fleabay and buy those other drivers... and matching amplifiers, and....... with the money 

greetz,
Isabelle


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## stereojnky (Mar 17, 2008)

Candisa said:


> On topic: I'm not a hater because of the price I think somebody paid for those drivers. I don't think there is anybody on this board stupid enough to pay the official price for those and I don't think those are bad drivers, I'm just saying the official prices are way too high and you could easily build a system with cheaper drivers that sounds as good, that's all.
> 
> PS.: If you'd take the price tag away, I wouldn't pick them because they are normally very expensive, but I would pick them after comparing them with a couple of other drivers and concluding they sound best to me.
> *If I could get those for free, I would accept them*, but if I found drivers that sound as good or better to me that are cheaper, I wouldn't hesitate to put them on fleabay and buy those other drivers... and matching amplifiers, and....... with the money
> ...


That's my whole point. You don't know if anybody paid for them or what they paid. And maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it seems (by your own words) that if they didn't cost so much or if you took money out of the equation, this conversation would be totally different, no? Maybe money isn't a determining factor for the selection of these speakers. 
Like I've said before, a KIA and a Mercedes will both serve the same purpose, get you from a to b. The Kia would probably do it using less gas, maintenance, etc. blah blah blah. Keep in mind I wouldn't buy a Mercedes, but if you took money out of the equation and gave me a choice I like most people would choose the more expensive of the two.
All I'm saying is that if you don't know what he paid for them (or if he even paid anything at all) and thats your only real beef, I think you owe the board a retraction.


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## Kenny_Cox (Sep 9, 2007)

what a big waste of money, you should just give them to me

O/T, just because this jayhawk got the drivers, and they are worth more than your amps, drivers, deadener, car, etc. doesn't mean you have to go ahead and discuss it in the thread. He posted pictures of his new drivers for us to see, if you want to discuss "why people spend so much money on stuff, I can do it better for less..." Then start a thread in the off topic and be on your way.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

If anybody would post pics of the newest dirt-cheap Dayton drivers that probably have a better price/soundquality ratio (I'm not saying they'll sound better, before somebody claims I said that), I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be a couple pages filled with oooohs and aaaaahs, that's the whole point, nothing more than that!

greetz,
Isabelle


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

Candisa said:


> If anybody would post pics of the newest dirt-cheap Dayton drivers that probably have a better price/soundquality ratio (I'm not saying they'll sound better, before somebody claims I said that), I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be a couple pages filled with oooohs and aaaaahs, that's the whole point, nothing more than that!
> 
> greetz,
> Isabelle


When the last bunch of dirt-cheap Dayton driver did come out, people were still oooing and aaaahing for stuff; pages and pages worth of oooohs and ahhhhs. My point is, what's it matter? Does it bother that much?


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## Kenny_Cox (Sep 9, 2007)

the whole point is that you obviously feel you can make a better sounding system with less money. If so, so be it. He bought the drivers end of story. Maybe I missed where the title says; Let's bash dynaudio because they came out with a new lineup of speakers (that hardly anybody can afford). He bought them, you didn't, whether you can afford them is irrelevant, whether you feel they are worth it, is irrelevant, you came here to stir up ****.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

No, I came here to give my opinion, that's what a forum is ment for, then it became "let's all bash on Isabelle because she has reasonable thinking brains"


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

Being here since at least September of last year, one would believe that she would under stand that one of the principles of this forum is building it better for less. Mind you a principle, not the rule. Noone here needs to be reminded that something could be done for less; especially the person that just bought the equipment. That's just downright rude.


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

Candisa said:


> No, I came here to give my opinion, that's what a forum is ment for, then it became "let's all bash on Isabelle because she has reasonable thinking brains"


When did everyone else's opinion become bashing? I believe you are using the wrong brain at the moment. I believe you meAnt to use the other one.


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## Kenny_Cox (Sep 9, 2007)

Candisa said:


> No, I came here to give my opinion, that's what a forum is ment for, then it became "let's all bash on Isabelle because she has reasonable thinking brains"


Nobody is bashing you, take your opinions to your own thread, simple concept. People that read into the thread to see what it's about dont care what your feelings are towards dynaudio speakers.


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## Autophile (Nov 10, 2007)

Jayhawkblk, Lets have your intial impressions / review asap of the New Esotar range by Dynaudio.


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## Vorlon (Nov 17, 2007)

Yes! please break my heart =(


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

I never told the topicstarter he wasted his money, cuz I don't know what he actually paid for it. All I said was I'm very confused so much people are posting oohs and aahs. The only thing that interests me is how they sound, and I'm not saying they'll sound bad because I know for sure that will be far from the truth...

You know what, just stop the whole discussion, it starts to look like politics, they too don't listen and talk next to eachother........

greetz,
Isabelle


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## yermolovd (Oct 10, 2005)

no matter what price and other things are,
i mean if they look pretty, they do.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

That's a matter of taste, I can imagine some people are thrilled with the design of those drivers, personally I don't like their looks, just like the looks of my Peerless Exclusive mids, luckily I bought them for their sound 

greetz,
Isabelle


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## jayhawkblk (May 29, 2007)

Autophile said:


> Jayhawkblk, Lets have your intial impressions / review asap of the New Esotar range by Dynaudio.



Hold your horses still breaking them in. I will install prob tomorrow or Weds.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

stereojnky said:


> Like I've said before, a KIA and a Mercedes will both serve the same purpose, get you from a to b. The Kia would probably do it using less gas, maintenance, etc. blah blah blah. Keep in mind I wouldn't buy a Mercedes, but if you took money out of the equation and gave me a choice I like most people would choose the more expensive of the two.
> All I'm saying is that if you don't know what he paid for them (or if he even paid anything at all) and thats your only real beef, I think you owe the board a retraction.


It just so happens that Mercedes hasn't updated their engine technology in decades. SOHC turbos belong in the 70s. Their lower lines are well known to break down and their brand image has declined substantially despite heavy advertising. I do like their pen work. Good analogy, there is a whole chunk in the industry making smarter, better cars for just over 20k. My door is holding over 100lbs daily and it hasn't sagged a bit. You don't see Honda advertising that because they have much better things going for them.



danssoslow said:


> Being here since at least September of last year, one would believe that she would under stand that one of the principles of this forum is building it better for less. Mind you a principle, not the rule. Noone here needs to be reminded that something could be done for less; especially the person that just bought the equipment. That's just downright rude.


I am assuming you know the exact time when she started to use the search function while not being registered as well. Kinda the same as knowing how much people pay for stuff no?
Downright rude telling it how it is, returning the OP a less than satisfying opinion.



danssoslow said:


> When did everyone else's opinion become bashing? I believe you are using the wrong brain at the moment. I believe you meAnt to use the other one.


As bashing as your post above? 
Bashing on posts is not downright rude.



Kenny_Cox said:


> Nobody is bashing you, take your opinions to your own thread, simple concept. People that read into the thread to see what it's about dont care what your feelings are towards dynaudio speakers.


Ok, let's return the thread back on tracks. Starring at the pictures...stroking, stroking...

Some people have feelings...stronger people have opinions. What exactly gives?



Autophile said:


> Jayhawkblk, Lets have your intial impressions / review asap of the New Esotar range by Dynaudio.


New Esotar range by Dynaudio. New Esotar range by Dynaudio. New Esotar range by Dynaudio. We interrupt this commercial break...

...to draw attention to a new discovery in the new Esotar range by Dynaudio. Basket diamater on the 1200 measures in at less than 300mm making this driver easier to mount than most real 12 inch subs because...low and behold it is not a 12 inch subwoofer...it is 11 inch. We have confirmation from our correspondent on the sales floor that xmax is indeed just around 20mm making this quite possibly the best deal on a midbass per square inch. Rumor in the industry has it that the 3mm needed to get the basket to 12 inches would have indeed jeopardized this precision build speaker and would have brougt all its performance stats in a critical condition. 

We now get back to our regular programing.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

Candisa said:


> I never told the topicstarter he wasted his money, cuz I don't know what he actually paid for it. All I said was I'm very confused so much people are posting oohs and aahs. The only thing that interests me is how they sound, and I'm not saying they'll sound bad because I know for sure that will be far from the truth...
> 
> You know what, just stop the whole discussion, it starts to look like politics, they too don't listen and talk next to eachother........
> 
> ...


DIY ***** huh? Living up to your self fulfilled prophecy? i kid, i kid..

While it does not impress you or others, many like to see new product post-CES and many like to post pics of their new toys pre-build... this is a car audio forum correct?

The thread starter is a competitor.
The thread starter has used Dynaudio, certainly more than impressed with what he heard he's spent more money buying more product from the company. No greater testament than a customer giving a company repeat/future business....i dont believe he has blindly bought these.

Ooohs? Ahhhs? Dynaudio does not come out with new product every year, particularly the caraudio line. 

Many would've loved to try the original Esostar tweeter, now they've been tooled smaller and easier to use in the car.
Dynaudio never had a small sealed box tooled sub before, now it does.
The Esostar2 line sure makes improvement in their motor design based on data compared to the Mobile Fidelity and Esotec lines.

No one expects Dynaudio (whos not in the raw driver/diy market, but in a high end market) to release their latest builds in anything other than the same price brackets that 'marketeer' companies like Genesis do in regards to to their re-labeled/custom Scanspeak drivers.

And...

You cant have your cake and eat it too. Your 'sonic signature' arguments on amplifiers do very little to support your disgust for higher priced speakers when you have Genesis in your signature- you are speaking high end caraudio lingo, yet you want to put a cap on a speakers subjective worth.

No one gives a hoot how much you paid for them or how old they are, if you are looking for a pat on the back this gentleman's thread shouldnt be your platform. 

...........

jayhawkblk....congrats on the new toys ,i look forward to and wish you luck on your install.


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

cvjoint said:


> We now get back to our regular programing.


I've already taken the time to PM Candisa about this very thing; and it would seem that we have come to an understanding, thus returning this back on track. 

Thanks anyways.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

3.5max6spd: I already posted answers to about everything you just posted, so read my title as a command and start to read, end of discussion.

greetz,
Isabelle


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## Kenny_Cox (Sep 9, 2007)

Hop to it Marquies as I'd like to know your opinion! I just got done with the break in period on my system 362, I cannot wait to install them!


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## videocrew (Mar 18, 2006)

Geez, I sure am glad I responded to this email and came back to see what was going on here:

"Hello, videocrew!
We've noticed that you've not been active on Diy Mobile Audio - The Ultimate In Sound Quality for a little while now."

This place is a mess! Good luck to everyone, I'm sure there is good information on this forum, but it sure ain't here. The sad thing is, I remember when this place got started, and it was awesome. I guess I left at just the right time last time, and it's probably time for me to do so again.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

videocrew said:


> Geez, I sure am glad I responded to this email and came back to see what was going on here:
> 
> "Hello, videocrew!
> We've noticed that you've not been active on Diy Mobile Audio - The Ultimate In Sound Quality for a little while now."
> ...


No need to leave again, once ya learn to not feed the trolls everything becomes alot better. Picture feeding a lost pup .. keep feeding it and it will return like clockwork. Stop feeding it and it will go elsewhere to annoy, err eat.


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## Kenny_Cox (Sep 9, 2007)

I take offense to that Don....


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

This place is the "caraudioforum.com" for old people now.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Speak for yourself, placenta. Unless you're talking about mental ages 

greetz,
Isabelle


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

You could have got them PG RSD's for way less, fyi.

re-Greetz for ever opening this thread,
FoxPro



Oh, and thanks for the pics jayhawk. It's not every day you get to see new drivers in the flesh like that. It's one thing to see the online pics that Dyn puts out, but to see them close up, in real life is way different. 

**edit** Ok one gripe...when are you going to figure out how to put the -/+ terminal posts right next to each other, Dyn??


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

LOL. You are too much John. 

anyways, i don't care what anyone says, those look sexy! can't wait for the review.


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## stereojnky (Mar 17, 2008)

Kenny_Cox said:


> what a big waste of money, you should just give them to me
> 
> O/T, just because this jayhawk got the drivers, and they are worth more than your amps, drivers, deadener, car, etc. doesn't mean you have to go ahead and discuss it in the thread. He posted pictures of his new drivers for us to see, if you want to discuss "why people spend so much money on stuff, I can do it better for less..." Then start a thread in the off topic and be on your way.


You are absolutely correct sir and I apologize for my part in it but I just Had to say something. Couldn't help myself.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Candisa said:


> No, I came here to give my opinion, that's what a forum is ment for, then it became "let's all bash on Isabelle because she has reasonable thinking brains"


Let it all roll off your back Isabella.

I'm not sure what the problem is with you giving an opinion. It all seems very CA.comISH for people to be bashing you.....not what this place is about.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

XC-C30 said:


> even if I could, I wouldn't buy 'em. I just don't see the purpous in buying rebadged or for that matter copied stuff when I can get on par with something different.





6spdcoupe said:


> I would absolutely Love to hear the facts behind the blanket statement. Please share.
> 
> And dont approach this with the "well it looks like xxx driver" etc.. I want to see Hard facts to support your claim. You opened the door, now prove your accusation.


STILL waiting for a response to this. You've been on numerous times and even visited this thread, but yet no response. Was this just your feeble attempt to discredit a product?


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

GlasSman said:


> Let it all roll off your back Isabella.
> 
> I'm not sure what the problem is with you giving an opinion. It all seems very CA.comISH for people to be bashing you.....not what this place is about.


Giving an opinion is one thing, when it become constantly repetitive it gets old really quick. 

Especially when it was a thread started as sharing of a new addition. Not a thread of:

"Should I get these?"
"Are these worth it?"
"What is your opinion of cost?"
Etc ..

She can state her opinion and he'll even have a decent discussion (although a different thread would be more appropriate) but to continuously spew the same crap gets really tiresome.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

The problem is that Isabella is not in the new marketing scheme. Ever since DIYMA turned into "The ultimate in sound quality" there has been an influx of downstream characters that seek to roll over high profit goods to the new members. The strategy is to display product or show off with competition score cards to impress. Then there come the real trolls. Some are competitors who get the gear free or low cost, some are in sales, some owners, some just friends who kiss ass. Notice how many FOBs are so outspoken for no reason. Many new members are pieces to the equation. They're not here to learn or keep an open mind but to do their job. If you're not silently nodding or a piece to the puzzle you are invited to go somewhere else, this IS business, mind games are the new selling ticket.

Take away discussion and arguments out of this thread and what do you have? Just a few nods, very informative to the community... True audiophiles have long been known to appreciate drivers based on looks.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

cvjoint said:


> Take away discussion and arguments out of this thread and what do you have? Just a few nods, very informative to the community... True audiophiles have long been known to appreciate drivers based on looks.



Exactly how is that different than this thread?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19612

$341.70 each for midbass drivers are just fine however someone buying Dyns needs to be raked over the coals? Why are you allowed to the set the standard for what is reasonable and what is not? 

Peerless SLS, as used by your hero, are under $60 each. You could have obtained better performance for far less. 

And, by the way, the responses are framed as factual statements and not opinions. And if you disagree with her opinion then you are "not using your brain". Everyone is entitled to an opinion but it would be nice if they had an ounce of modesty and actually expressed their feelings appropriately


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

cvjoint said:


> The problem is that Isabella is not in the new marketing scheme. Ever since DIYMA turned into "The ultimate in sound quality" there has been an influx of downstream characters that seek to roll over high profit goods to the new members. The strategy is to display product or show off with competition score cards to impress. Then there come the real trolls. Some are competitors who get the gear free or low cost, some are in sales, some owners, some just friends who kiss ass. Notice how many FOBs are so outspoken for no reason. Many new members are pieces to the equation. They're not here to learn or keep an open mind but to do their job. If you're not silently nodding or a piece to the puzzle you are invited to go somewhere else, this IS business, mind games are the new selling ticket.
> 
> Take away discussion and arguments out of this thread and what do you have? Just a few nods, very informative to the community... True audiophiles have long been known to appreciate drivers based on looks.


I would love to hear your _opinion_ of where I fit into your long list of stereotypes. I am in sales and own both of my businesses. Im also very good friends with the OP of this thread. So entice me where I would fit in. If I have ruffled feathers along the way, surely no one told me about it.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

ClinesSelect said:


> *Exactly how is that different than this thread?*
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19612
> 
> ...



Very good point.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

ClinesSelect said:


> Exactly how is that different than this thread?
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19612
> 
> ...


Ahh...very good. Have you perhaps missed this thread: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36471&highlight=vifa
I have more than open to any suggestions of what drivers to use and loosely picked based on objective data and recommendations. I have no brand affiliation and you can easily see that based on my choices. The Vifa's in the picture were $79/piece, B&Cs $129/piece, and the Seas W26 were $260/piece. Notice that I've tried to replace more expensive drivers with far less costly ones, but as I will argue price was not the major deciding factor. I picked the Vifa because the coil is rated for twice the W26 at 300w and because I believed the glues might hold better as well. The B&C was picked for its output abilities too and to open my choices to PA in the future. 

*Why I think the Seas w26 is worth $260 bucks:*

One of the lowest distortion drivers on the market as tested by 3rd parties
One of the only 10s to play well up to 800hz for future system flexibility
Good off axis response with the implementation of a phase plug
Top notch centering and handcrafting on all suspension parts
Improved cooling from smart use of basket venting and copper plug
World class alloy cone that acts as a piston
A true 10incer I might add measuring at just under 11inches in basket diam.
Seas is a pioneer in the industry, a real innovator 

I previously used the XLS 8 as recommended by Npdang and worked very well for me. I turned down the SLS because the inductance is far too high for low midrange use and because I wanted to try something new. 

I'd love to see someone break down their preference for Dyn. I'm easy to conquer with a well reasoned argument.


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> The problem is that Isabella is not in the new marketing scheme. Ever since DIYMA turned into "The ultimate in sound quality" there has been an influx of downstream characters that seek to roll over high profit goods to the new members. The strategy is to display product or show off with competition score cards to impress. Then there come the real trolls. Some are competitors who get the gear free or low cost, some are in sales, some owners, some just friends who kiss ass. Notice how many FOBs are so outspoken for no reason. Many new members are pieces to the equation. They're not here to learn or keep an open mind but to do their job. If you're not silently nodding or a piece to the puzzle you are invited to go somewhere else, this IS business, mind games are the new selling ticket.
> 
> Take away discussion and arguments out of this thread and what do you have? Just a few nods, very informative to the community... True audiophiles have long been known to appreciate drivers based on looks.



X2  , I am pretty disturbed how this system runs. I do acknowldge that these are the majority of the business practices. I do understand why it works. I know there is better way. Just that it's not as efficient but can be just as effective.


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## Vorlon (Nov 17, 2007)

This is going no where slowly....deciding on speakers is like trying to decide on "the best car." Its really up to the person willing to spend the cash. If you wouldnt spend x amount on a set of drivers, so be it but its really not up to you.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

6spdcoupe said:


> Giving an opinion is one thing, when it become constantly repetitive it gets old really quick.
> 
> Especially when it was a thread started as sharing of a new addition. Not a thread of:
> 
> ...


Here it sounds like you control what's being said. The OP did just that...he posted pics. People replied. What's your point? And who is 'he' who will have a discussion, the OP? How do you know what's he going to do? 



6spdcoupe said:


> No need to leave again, once ya learn to not feed the trolls everything becomes alot better. Picture feeding a lost pup .. keep feeding it and it will return like clockwork. Stop feeding it and it will go elsewhere to annoy, err eat.


This one is particularly hurtful. You are simply throwing personal attacks, no need for name calling. Sounds like you are calling people of inferior nature. I generally like your careful jabs where you want people to back up their statements, but this one is simply demeaning. 

I don't see why you'd want my opinion on where you stand in all this unless you believe yourself to be an angel of sorts. For one I'm sure you use drivers in your car that you sell as a marketing strategy. Replacing drivers with new arrivals is another trick. U must have at least some bias. How likely are you to try diy drivers in your situation? I busted my w26 and told the whole world. How likely are you to tell us about reliability track record of Dyn, especially if it is bad (not saying it is).


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

cvjoint said:


> Here it sounds like you control what's being said. The OP did just that...he posted pics. People replied. What's your point? And who is 'he' who will have a discussion, the OP? How do you know what's he going to do?


 The point is it was someone sharing their new products. Nothing more, nothing less. If someone feels compelled to criticize for whatever reason, so be it. There is however a fine line between a thought and beating the proverbial dead horse.



cvjoint said:


> This one is particularly hurtful. You are simply throwing personal attacks, no need for name calling. Sounds like you are calling people of inferior nature. I generally like your careful jabs where you want people to back up their statements, but this one is simply demeaning.


 Your absolutely right and its not my typical response. I do apologize as sometimes things get the better part of me especially after/during a rough day.



cvjoint said:


> I don't see why you'd want my opinion on where you stand in all this unless you believe yourself to be an angel of sorts. For one I'm sure you use drivers in your car that you sell as a marketing strategy. Replacing drivers with new arrivals is another trick. U must have at least some bias. How likely are you to try diy drivers in your situation? I busted my w26 and told the whole world. How likely are you to tell us about reliability track record of Dyn, especially if it is bad (not saying it is).


 An angel? Far from it. You did make a statement though and since opinions are free ... give it.

Some bias? Perhaps, but theres not many out there that is not at my immediate disposal whether it be as a dealer/rep or just 'industry affiliate'. Do I use the products for marketing? Absolutely But first and foremost is My listening in My daily driver with My ears.

How likely am I to try something different? Very .. been there and done that check and ask around.

If Dyn or any other was good or bad I wouldnt hesitate to publish it - just not my nature to hide the bad and endorse the good. Although since you brought it up a recent problem was found with a member having apparently a problem with one driver from a set of MD102s that he had bought second hand. With very little cost and a couple of days he was sent a brand new set with a full warranty. Was there a problem? Yes, but was it handled promptly and to liking? I would say absolutely.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

6spdcoupe said:


> The point is it was someone sharing their new products. Nothing more, nothing less. If someone feels compelled to criticize for whatever reason, so be it. There is however a fine line between a thought and beating the proverbial dead horse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nobody jumped when the classic amp sonics debate was brought up. In fact, everyone was too eager to prove they are right and forgot just how beaten down this path really is. There is something about Dyn msrps that strikes a nerve in some people and yet no one signed up to justify them. I don't particularly care what the owner pays, nor do I think that was what most people were interested in. It is the price the average user faces if they were to try them out that raises eyebrows. Since this matter really hasn't been approached I don't see how the argument is outlived and I continue to see it as relevant as many times as it pops up.

I apologize for retorting with the same language a little earlier. 

I can just reinforce what I said earlier about you talking for the OP. IMO you were defending the product while the OP didn't care enough to do it himself. To be honest I forgot who the OP was for a while. I don't feel the need to attack people personally and I won't "ask around" to feel for bias.

Love the service with you taking care of second hand goods. Still no sign of what exactly went wrong with the guy's tweeter. It just so happens that information is missing, while the service is explained in detail. We wouldn't want people to get suspicious of their drivers suffering from the same sickness do we? You're giving me a lot of stuff to work with


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

cvjoint said:


> Nobody jumped when the classic amp sonics debate was brought up. In fact, everyone was too eager to prove they are right and forgot just how beaten down this path really is. There is something about Dyn msrps that strikes a nerve in some people and yet no one signed up to justify them. I don't particularly care what the owner pays, nor do I think that was what most people were interested in. It is the price the average user faces if they were to try them out that raises eyebrows. Since this matter really hasn't been approached I don't see how the argument is outlived and I continue to see it as relevant as many times as it pops up.
> 
> I apologize for retorting with the same language a little earlier.
> 
> ...


There is no way to justify cost of something to another individual. I can tell you all day long how my $42k CHEVY is worth and why *I* feel it is (I really dont ), but it's still subjective to each person.

He actually did care, just not enough to type it all out. I speak with him numerous times a day on the phone. I however am not one to bite my tongue. I speak my mind every time. Again though I cannot tell you or anyone else that an item is worth a particular price. You stated I _must_ have some bias. I simply replied with a possibility of verification. If you choose to follow or not is completely your call.

Aside from _seeming _to have received too much power, I cannot tell you. I only saw pictures and did everything in my power to get it resolved quick and painlessly. Hence the reason for lack of details, I had minimal myself.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

I would listen if you gave it a try. Call on a Revelator user and he would be able to list the speaker strengths, or for that matter the ATC dome, RAAL ribbons, Acutton drivers not cheap drivers by any means. Everything but timber can be explained though science. Are you going to tell me that the timber alone is enough to justify the large price difference between this driver and one with similar specs? And if so, describe it. There might be drivers with similar tone characteristics too.

*edit: think of me as your wife. I see guys do this all the time with audio equipment


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## Dillyyo (Feb 15, 2008)

Candisa said:


> When that .1% THD is measured at 1W @ 4ohms and that .005% THD is measured at full power... My answer is yes
> 
> Even if you don't hear it as distortion, you'll notice it in warmth.
> 
> ...



Oh brother....this one is a classic! That warmth is probably just a warm fart!


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## Dillyyo (Feb 15, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Hate to argue with you, but have you read richard clark's rules? I still don't understand why everyone quote's this test as proof that all amps sound the same. His rules more or less say they don't. They say that the amp cannot be driven to clipping. Just about everyone on this forum clips their amp whether they like to admit it or not.



What he has always stated was, not that all amps sound the same, but that there are very little audible differences that cannot be replicated through proper adjustment and tweaking. In other words, all of these crack heads who describe amps as warm, smooth, envigorating etc and feel they should pay an extra 1500 for that warmth, need to wake up.


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## Dephect (Jun 10, 2008)

wow definitely good looking. dynaudio definitely is one of the best.


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