# How to make your RTA with $100 dlls.



## doitor

Hi guys
Just got my RTA going.
$100 for all the pieces new.
Want to know how?
Paypal me $100 and I'll let you know.
j/k

Behringer ECM8000 $49.95 at Amazon.










MXL Usb Mic Mate payed $49 at my local Guitar Center. Cheapest I've seen online $79.99
This thing has phantom power and you plug it directly to the mic and then to a USB port on your computer. It detects it automaticly.


























TrueRTA free. (http://www.trueaudio.com/) the 1 octave is free and there are several versions 1/3 octave ($39.95), 1/6 octave ($69.95) and 1/24 octave ($99.95).










I know there are several programs to do it.
That's not my car's graph by the way, just measuring my office noise. 
I think I need to eq my office. 
Well that's it, $100 dollar totally portable, RTA and SPL meter. 

Jorge.


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## sonicnirvana

Kewl Beans...but what about the $500 computer


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## BlackSapphire

Great post! I'm going to build one as well. Any downsides to this setup or is it fairly accurate? I am used to people using larger mic pre-amps and such.

Anyone care to comment? I'm psyched Doitor - thanks again.


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## BlackSapphire

Two questions:

1. I see the Hi/Med/Low switch - what position should it be in normally?
2. On the TrueRTA software. Which version is 'necessary'? I don't mind buying one of the other levels if it's absolutely worthy of the price.

I'm new to the RTA world so thank you in advance for the advice.


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## bobditts

Nice tutorial! One question though..... What added bonus does the other method in the link bleow offer over this method if any?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17


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## robbyho

also, a really good program that is totally free is call room eq wizard and it will do frequency response graph with ease (though not an rta, it is essentially the same).
google it and you shall find...I believe you need to register for the forum to DL it.

also winmls lets you do a trial for 30 days and the program is extremely simple to get going.

for any program you'll need a measuring mic and a preamp. As well as a xlr cable, an xlr to 1/8" jack, and an 1/8" jack to your sound system. plus an 1/8" to 1/8" to measure your sound card's FR.

Robby


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## BlackSapphire

robbyho said:


> also, a really good program that is totally free is call room eq wizard and it will do frequency response graph with ease (though not an rta, it is essentially the same).
> google it and you shall find...I believe you need to register for the forum to DL it.
> 
> also winmls lets you do a trial for 30 days and the program is extremely simple to get going.
> 
> for any program you'll need a measuring mic and a preamp. As well as a xlr cable, an xlr to 1/8" jack, and an 1/8" jack to your sound system. plus an 1/8" to 1/8" to measure your sound card's FR.
> 
> Robby


Good advice Robby - thanks.

By using the preamp doitor is using (Mic Mate), it seems you can avoid many of those cables. True?


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## supersaag

Is there a "special" mic needed? And if were using a USB connection for the mic, as Doitor did, we dont need to measure the FR of the computer do we?


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## doitor

sonicnirvana said:


> Kewl Beans...but what about the $500 computer


Let me change the title to:How to make your RTA with $100 dlls If you have a laptop.

Jorge.


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## doitor

BlackSapphire said:


> Two questions:
> 
> 1. I see the Hi/Med/Low switch - what position should it be in normally?
> 2. On the TrueRTA software. Which version is 'necessary'? I don't mind buying one of the other levels if it's absolutely worthy of the price.
> 
> I'm new to the RTA world so thank you in advance for the advice.


1.- Don't know, I have it in low and works ok.
2.- I think depending on the eq you have. My H701 has 1/3 octave eq, so that should be more than enough.

I'm also new to RTA's and wanted one for some time, but for this price it was hard to pass.

Jorge.


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## doitor

bobditts said:


> Nice tutorial! One question though..... What added bonus does the other method in the link bleow offer over this method if any?
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17


The method on the link shows how to tune with a pc measurement setup.
Mine is not a method, just a way to get a cheap, totally portable, pc measurement setup.

Jorge.


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## doitor

BlackSapphire said:


> Good advice Robby - thanks.
> 
> By using the preamp doitor is using (Mic Mate), it seems you can avoid many of those cables. True?


Yes.
The MicMate plugs directly to the mic and then just an USB cable to the computer.
So just one cable, no adapters, no extra power needed.

Jorge.


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## doitor

supersaag said:


> Is there a "special" mic needed? And if were using a USB connection for the mic, as Doitor did, we dont need to measure the FR of the computer do we?


As far as I know you can use just about any mic.
The behringer ecm8000 is one of the most widely used.
And don't know about the second question.

Jorge.


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## BlackSapphire

doitor said:


> 1.- Don't know, I have it in low and works ok.
> 2.- I think depending on the eq you have. My H701 has 1/3 octave eq, so that should be more than enough.
> 
> I'm also new to RTA's and wanted one for some time, but for this price it was hard to pass.
> 
> Jorge.


Good deal Jorge, I copied your setup for now. I just ordered the Behringer and the Mic mate.


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## doitor

First measurements.
After "tuning" by ear for some time for daily driving, this is what the first RTA showed.










I will start playing with it and experimenting to see/hear what I can do.

Jorge.


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## npdang

Don't forget 2 very important settings, weighting and averaging!


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## chad

One can pick up a M-Audio USB-Pre fro around 40-50 bucks used that gives you 2 channels of balanced IO, 2 mic pre's, and phantom power. BUT you have to shop around and possibly wait.


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## BlackSapphire

npdang said:


> Don't forget 2 very important settings, weighting and averaging!


Please expand on that thought (or point me to some really long thread).


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## supersaag

So Doitor, when you ran TrueRTA to show you that graph. Did you use "Quick sweep"?


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## npdang

BlackSapphire said:


> Please expand on that thought (or point me to some really long thread).


Averaging is important because it gives you greater noise immunity. Random noise in one measurement will be averaged out over the long run but may cause a loss of fine detail.

Weighting is important because it compensates for the lack of bass, and overly represented treble due to the long measurement window. Look up A, B, and C weighting on google and you will see what each weighting curve does.


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## BigRed

np, what weighting do you lean towards? B?


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## Ge0

BigRed said:


> np, what weighting do you lean towards? B?


I can't speak for Nguyen, but I tune to a modified B weighted curve. I follow the B scale in the bass region but not so in the treble region. I prefer to taper my treble off a tad so it is not overpowering vs boost it as B weighting would suggest. 

I dumped the Behringer mic in favor of a binaural summed and averaged solution. I use this in combination with long measurement averages to come up with a pretty damn realistic tonal balance and stage presentation. I've been told by people with fairly high credentials that my system sounds VERY pleasing. If I could only find the time to clean up my install one day I might actually compete.

Ge0


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## tijuana_no

JORGE , which sound card did you use , i heard that the one from the comp. is not very reliable for this type of programs . i also have this program .


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## BMWturbo

I hope i haven't missed this in the thread somewhere, but say you had available a pair of ECM8000's and a 2 channel mixer/pre-amp, would it be lucrative to set-up a mic in the location of each ear and run the tests in 'stereo' rather then using a single mic in teh centre of the head style arrangment?


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## doitor

supersaag said:


> So Doitor, when you ran TrueRTA to show you that graph. Did you use "Quick sweep"?


No.
I admit that I'm an RTA newbie and need to read a lot to get the most out of this.

Jorge.


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## doitor

Payed with the RTA this Sunday.
Put the mic where my head would be, sat in the back seat with the laptop and the C701 controller, got only the right speakers playing and started measuring. I then tryed to get it as flat as possible with the C701. After I got it the best I could, did the same thing on the left channel and then with both channels together.
Let me tell you I'm impressed with the results.
Tonality wise it's a totally different system.
Before this I've been listening to the Focal 1 cd for one week non stop.
After the "tune" I could hear a lot of thinks that I've never heard before.
I'm going to read and learn as much as I can on how to properly tune with one of this, but the differencie is HUGE.
And I didn't even knew what I was doing.

Jorge


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## michaelsil1

doitor said:


> After the "tune" I could hear a lot of thinks that I've never heard before.
> I'm going to read and learn as much as I can on how to properly tune with one of these, but the difference is HUGE.
> And I didn't even know what I was doing.
> 
> Jorge


I would love to find some kind of class in Los Angeles.

I've also had really good results from using PC Based Measurement Software and I don't have a clue as to what all the settings are for.


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## BigRed

Doitor, take note on the graph you shared, you have a 20db swing on frequency response. My point is that flat could be more accurate if you change the db setting so it gets down to 5db differences between large graph points. also try averaging as Npdang suggested 

Just trying to help my teammate out 

Good luck amigo!


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## BigRed

also, I thought you werent a controller / laptop kinda guy?? The 701 was supposed to be all you need?? You are learning jedi knight!! j/k lol.


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## doitor

Thanks for the info, Red.
I know there's a LOT to learn.
Just starting with this and really like the results.

Jorge.


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## solacedagony

Ge0 said:


> I dumped the Behringer mic in favor of a binaural summed and averaged solution. I use this in combination with long measurement averages to come up with a pretty damn realistic tonal balance and stage presentation.


Do you have your mic placement/aiming in any threads already? If not, would you care describing?


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## BlackSapphire

I received the final piece of my setup today. Everything worked fine out of the box. Setup was easy.

One question/comment however. Correct me if I'm wrong but all of the steps regarding 'calibrating your sound card' really do _not_ apply if you are _not_ using the analog in/out on your card. If you are using MicMate or similar (USB-based), the sound card doesn't even come into play IMO.


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## txbonds

Thanks for this thread. Following suit, I just picked up the mxl mic mate and behringer ecm8000 mic from ebay. Not counting shipping, the price is the same as your title, but with shipping it put me $10 over. 

Anyway, please keep the posting going as I'll have to learn to use this as well, but for self tuning or just seeing what is going on, this seemed like an awesome way to go for the DIY person. 

Any updates? 

Also, are you guys using any type of mic stand or bracket to hold the mic?

And, are you using any sort of test tones or tracks during measurement?

Thanks.


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## doitor

I'm glad that this thread helped you out.
You might want to read ndpang's much more advanced posts on how to use an RTA (http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17), and I'm sure you can find a lot of good info using search.
I bought a mic clamp at my local guitar center. Something like the one posted a couple of posts above and clamp it to the head rest.
As for material used for the test, most people use pink noise, but there's also a tutorial about using test tones to get every frequency in the center of the dash, but I don't remember where I found that one.
Let me look and I'll post here when I find it.

Jorge.


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## BlackSapphire

I'm still learning too but here is what I think....

Two ways to do this.

1. Play a quality pink noise track (autosound 2000 cd or similar) at 0db reference. Raise volume to some level (need help here- 70db sufficient?). Do RTA with this setup and freeze the FR graph to see where you're at. You could also tweak EQ settings in real time and watch the results on the FR graph.

2. Tie the output of your soundcard into the various inputs on your amplifier/EQ/whatever and do a 'quick sweep' on the RTA/MLS software. This generates the tone and then records it via the mic.

One method uses your headunit to generate the tone, the other uses the RTA/MLS program to generate the tone.

Experts, Are both ways acceptable?

Also, I purchased a 'low-profile mic stand with boom'. They're only $20 and give you lots of flexibility.


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## snaimpally

supersaag said:


> Is there a "special" mic needed? And if were using a USB connection for the mic, as Doitor did, we dont need to measure the FR of the computer do we?


Yes, a special mic is needed. If you google this particular mic you will find that it is specially designed for analysis and measurement:

"The ECM8000’s linear frequency response and omni-directional polar pattern allows you to carry out measurement and alignment tasks with minimum hassle and maximum precision, making it a perfect complement to any real-time analyzer."

Most mics do not exhibit these characteristics.


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## snaimpally

The sound card does not come into play because the usb port is being used to transmit the audio information.



BlackSapphire said:


> I received the final piece of my setup today. Everything worked fine out of the box. Setup was easy.
> 
> One question/comment however. Correct me if I'm wrong but all of the steps regarding 'calibrating your sound card' really do _not_ apply if you are _not_ using the analog in/out on your card. If you are using MicMate or similar (USB-based), the sound card doesn't even come into play IMO.


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## BlackSapphire

snaimpally said:


> The sound card does not come into play because the usb port is being used to transmit the audio information.


Exactly what I figured. I wonder if there is anything interesting with respect to TA. I mean, the analog audio out of the soundcard is sending the sweep to the connected equipment. The ECM8000 is recording the output via the USB Audio Codec. 

Food for thought... 

Anyway, I was playing with it today on my home system. Anyone think the first track of the 'Straight Outta Basstown' CD emphasizes the lower octaves? LMAO

It's a great way to find all of your room rattles. My wife had set a plant on top of the sub. It pretty much walked itself off onto the floor.


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## snaimpally

Doitor, many thanks for this info. I did not think I could afford an RTA setup and instead it is very affordable. I plan to order the mic and interface in the next few weeks. I use my laptop to configure my RF 3sixty.2 so I should be able to switch back and forth to see how adjustments in eq affect the RTA.


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## BlackSapphire

I think the setup works great. The MicMate is much better than expected.

Yes, thank you Doitor!

So far, I've used this setup with TrueRTA, Fuzzmeasure Pro3, and Room EQ Wizard. Great results and no hiccups so far. Luckily the ECM8000 is so popular that find finding mic calibration files for it is easy.


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## doitor

Glad I can help.

Jorge.


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## supersaag

Hey Jorge did you find the post that shows how to get the image centered with test tones?


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## SigTest

Is the frequency response of MicMate flat enough for ECM8000?


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## BlackSapphire

Draw your own conclusions:



MicMate

Scarborough, ON, MXL Microphones, the professional audio division of Marshall Electronics, is pleased to announce the introduction of their new MicMate Universal USB Microphone Interface. Designed as an incredibly easy-to-use tool that enables any dynamic or condenser microphone to be connected to a personal computer, the new MicMate opens up the world of recording to anyone with a desire to capture crystal clear, professional quality audio. This versatile, compact interface makes capturing audio for podcasts, adding dialog to presentations, recording live performances , and a host of similar applications as simple as connecting any other USB peripheral.

Working with the new MXL MicMate is a pleasure. As a plug and play device for both Windows and Macintosh, it requires no special drivers whatsoever. Simply connect the MicMate’s USB cable to a computer’s USB port, and installation is quick and effortless. The new MicMate is a USB 2.0 high-speed device that is backward compatible with USB 1.1. With a cylindrical form factor roughly equal in size to a Cuban cigar, the MXL MicMate’s operation couldn’t be more intuitive—and as for its performance, let’s just say it ‘smokes’ the competition.

The MXL MicMate is sonically transparent and adds no coloration to the sound of the attached microphone. The analog section of the new MicMate features a 20 Hz-20 kHz frequency response, and a 3-position, switchable attenuation pad with settings for Hi (0 dB), Medium (-5 dB), and Lo (-10 dB), making it easy to configure the attached microphone to virtually any sound source. The digital section features a 16-bit Delta Sigma A/D converter with a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz and 48 kHz. For use with condenser microphones, the MicMate supplies 48V Phantom power.

Wayne Freeman, MXL’s Director of Sales and Marketing, commented on the company’s new offering, “The new MXL MicMate Universal USB Microphone Interface makes interfacing both dynamic and condenser microphones into the desktop recording environment an effortless, completely seamless process. Now, amateurs and professionals alike have a plug and play solution for integrating high quality audio into a wide range of recording applications. I’m confident customers will be pleasantly surprised by its easy operation.”

The MXL MicMate Universal USB Microphone Interface carries an MSRP price of $99 and will be available in Q3 of 2007.


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## SigTest

Thanks a lot for the bandwidth information (i.e. 20 Hz-20 kHz) of MicMate. I cannot find this on their website. Will definitely buy one and try.


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## egoaudio

Thanks for the tutorial man. Mine's on its way. Now I just need a laptop. lol. 

EGO


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## BlackSapphire

No laptop required. I think it'll all work by osmosis actually.


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## doitor

egoaudio said:


> Thanks for the tutorial man. Mine's on its way. Now I just need a laptop. lol.
> 
> EGO


No problem
Glad to help.
Si then it's not $100 for you.

Jorge.


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## doitor

BlackSapphire said:


> No laptop required. I think it'll all work by osmosis actually.


So where would you plug the mic?
LOL.

Jorge


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## BlackSapphire

doitor said:


> So where would you plug the mic?
> LOL.
> 
> Jorge


Bend over, I'll show ya. 

LOL..... sorry, just being goofy. Hey Doitor, I just got a nice Canare 15' mic cable. It works so much better now not having that mic plugged directly into the micmate. It's much easier to move around and not stress the connections. Also I noticed that if you plug the mic directly into the mic-mate, you have to remove that metal ring to get the XLR connector to fully seat. Not the case with a real XLR mic cable.

I've got a little mic boom setup coming today (but no car to try any of this in). Oh the humanity.


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## kaigoss69

Hey guys, great info here. Would the Mic Mate work with the mic from the Alpine PXH-100EQ imprint kit? The mic has an 1/8" plug.


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## doitor

kaigoss69 said:


> Hey guys, great info here. Would the Mic Mate work with the mic from the Alpine PXH-100EQ imprint kit? The mic has an 1/8" plug.


No.
The MicMate is to power "bigger" mics that need phantom power to operate.
You can plug that mic directly to the computer and it should work, but it would be better to have a "measurement mic" to get better results.
That's why the Behringer is used. It's "cheap" and works great.

Jorge.


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## kaigoss69

Thanks Jorge. I am sure I would need an external sound card then, as the sound chip in my laptop would probablt not be adequate. I think I read something about this here before but I cannot find it. What sort of sound card do you guys recommend?

BTW, I think it has been determined that the mic for the Alpine imprint kit is of relatively high quality, not sure though how it would compare to the Behringer.


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## doitor

One of the advantages of the MicMate is that you plug the mic to the computer via USB, and that way you dont need and external soundcard.
If all goes well I will put the "$100 RTA" against a real one (Audiocontrol) and will post results here, to see how accurate it is.

Jorge.


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## BlackSapphire

doitor said:


> One of the advantages of the MicMate is that you plug the mic to the computer via USB, and that way you dont need and external soundcard.
> If all goes well I will put the "$100 RTA" against a real one (Audiocontrol) and will post results here, to see how accurate it is.
> 
> Jorge.


I'd love to see that if you get time to do it.


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## doitor

BlackSapphire said:


> I'd love to see that if you get time to do it.


It's a done deal.
The Audiocontro RTA should be here next week if all goes well.
I'll post results as soon as I have them.

Jorge.


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## BigRed

David's gonna let you touch the audio control he got from Kevin? 

P9? 701? is the jury out?


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## doitor

BigRed said:


> David's gonna let you touch the audio control he got from Kevin?
> 
> P9? 701? is the jury out?


Yes he is.
And also add a certain H900 to the list.
But don't spoil the surprise.
H701 vs H900 vs P9 thread also comming soon.

Jorge.


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## txbonds

Cool. HOpe it proves to be ultra accurate, as I have one of the pieces arriving today, and the other piece arriving Monday to use for my $110 RTA setup, unless you count the cost of TruRTA with 1/3 or 1/6 octave.


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## BigRed

david got a sweet deal on that rta. kevin keeps his stuff in prestine condition and takes very good care of his stuff 

Good luck Doiter


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## BlackSapphire

Did a little testing today with my setup connected to an IBM T60p thinkpad.

I had the Behringer ECM8000/MicMate combo (with a 15' Canare Mic cable) doing some RTA via TrueRTA. I then took some known good 0db test tones on my OTHER PC (desktop) and played them to see what the Behringer/MXL combo measured. No matter which tone I tried (between 20hz and 20khz), the corresponding peak on the RTA was identical to what was suspected. No shift at all.

Today I received an Onstage Kick Drum/Amp mic stand w/boom. This thing is the perfect height for what we're trying to do in my opinion. It'll easily sit in the back seat with the boom centering the microphone at ear level.


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## BlackSapphire

Double post.


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## txbonds

Wish I had known to order an xlr mic cable, stand and usb cable. Got the mic mate and mic in hand, but didn't get any cables. Not sure if the mic mate should have come with one, but mine didn't. I'll have to go dig around in the garage for an unused printer cable when I get a chance, but want to also get an xlr mic cable and stand at some point to.


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## snaimpally

txbonds said:


> Wish I had known to order an xlr mic cable, stand and usb cable. Got the mic mate and mic in hand, but didn't get any cables. Not sure if the mic mate should have come with one, but mine didn't. I'll have to go dig around in the garage for an unused printer cable when I get a chance, but want to also get an xlr mic cable and stand at some point to.


The Micmate connects to a PC via a standard sided USB cable. It doesn't come with one but these are the standard sized USB so I'm sure you have one lying around or can get one cheap at a computer store.

You do need an XLR cable though to plug your mic in. I don't think that was mentioned. Luckily I have some lying around. Your local Guitar Center or other music store will have some.

Incidentally, I ordered the Micmate and Behringer from Musican's Friend and got both for $49 each with free shipping. The Behringer is on back-order but I might just use one of my existing mics.


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## txbonds

snaimpally said:


> The Micmate connects to a PC via a standard sided USB cable. It doesn't come with one but these are the standard sized USB so I'm sure you have one lying around or can get one cheap at a computer store.
> 
> You do need an XLR cable though to plug your mic in. I don't think that was mentioned. Luckily I have some lying around. Your local Guitar Center or other music store will have some.
> 
> Incidentally, I ordered the Micmate and Behringer from Musican's Friend and got both for $49 each with free shipping. The Behringer is on back-order but I might just use one of my existing mics.


Yeah, I'm sure I've got a spare cable too once I can put my hands on it. It's basically just a printer cable, with standard USB-A and USB-B ends, or whatever they call them.

The XLR is not absolutely required, as the mic mate can plug directly into the mic, but to get any cord length, to be able to test from outside the vehicle, it would be necessary, so I'll ahve to get a cord.

I got both of my pieces from ebay for $49 and $45, but with shipping the total was $110.


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## kidwolf909

Do you guys think it's worth the $100 to build your own RTA to tune your system even if you don't have all the processing power of say an H701 or similar? I have a CD7200mkII and will soon be running fully actively, but will it be worthwhile to buy an RTA system to tweak or is it not enough difference to care about?

TIA!


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## my89_928gt

I have the True RTA $100 program calibrated mic and all that for near 2 years now and have never been able to make it work on my PC 
Course I did not call tech support either.

Richard


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## larryboy2911

BigRed said:


> np, what weighting do you lean towards? B?


Professionally I always tune systems using an A weighting curve averaging 80-85dbSPL. In quiet to moderate environements the A weighting is similar to how we hear. As the SPL goes up the weighting shifts over to B then C. if you are tuning to a B or C curve it will be quite bass heavy because naturally we attenuate those frequencies at louder SPL's.


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## snaimpally

I think it is worth it because you can at least find out where the issues are. If you have a good eq, you can even address the major problem areas as well.



kidwolf909 said:


> Do you guys think it's worth the $100 to build your own RTA to tune your system even if you don't have all the processing power of say an H701 or similar? I have a CD7200mkII and will soon be running fully actively, but will it be worthwhile to buy an RTA system to tweak or is it not enough difference to care about?
> TIA!


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## 12v Electronics

doitor said:


> It's a done deal.
> The Audiocontro RTA should be here next week if all goes well.
> I'll post results as soon as I have them.
> 
> Jorge.


Did you get to compare it to the Audio Control?

Just wondering how it stands up to it. This Micmate sounds pretty cool. I may have to pick one up and run it against our AC RTA myself.


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## doitor

12v Electronics said:


> Did you get to compare it to the Audio Control?
> 
> Just wondering how it stands up to it. This Micmate sounds pretty cool. I may have to pick one up and run it against our AC RTA myself.


Not yet.
If all goes well I should do it at the Dallas Meet on July 20th.
I'll post the results here.

Jorge.


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## ErinH

I compared my laptop setup to a "legitimate" RTA-in-one and got the same readings.


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## dvsadvocate

@bikinpunk
Whats the RTA you compared yours to? Thats really great news!


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## ErinH

dvsadvocate said:


> @bikinpunk
> Whats the RTA you compared yours to? Thats really great news!


 i really don't know. It's Kirk Proffit's. I saw it at night so never caught the name. He said he paid a couple hundred for it and that was a steal, so it's apparently a high-end RTA.


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## 12v Electronics

bikinpunk said:


> i really don't know. It's Kirk Proffit's. I saw it at night so never caught the name. He said he paid a couple hundred for it and that was a steal, so it's apparently a high-end RTA.


Did it look something like this?

http://www.mobileaudiocontrol.com/product.asp?Product_Id=16732&d_Id=5252&l1=5252&l2=

We have one of these and I will probably order the mic mate today so I will give them a test. I am curious myself.


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## ErinH

Might have. It was dark. All I remember is red dots. May have been 1/3db octave resolution.


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## SigTest

Hi, anybody know the difference between MicMatePro and MicMate, except that MicMatePro has audio output?


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## avaxis

anybody ordering a set soon? can get an extra set and ship it over to me? i'll buy you a beer for the trouble.


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## doitor

SigTest said:


> Hi, anybody know the difference between MicMatePro and MicMate, except that MicMatePro has audio output?


MicMate

Studio-quality USB Microphone Preamp
Supplies 48V Phantom Power for condenser microphones
Plug and record with your favorite software
No special drivers required
Fully balanced low noise analog front end
Analog gain control
Compact travel size 0.85" OD x 5.75" Long
Heavy duty diecast metal construction


MicMate Pro

Supplies 48V phantom power 
Studio-quality microphone preamp 
Zero latency monitoring 
1/8-inch Stereo headphone jack
Fully balanced low-noise analog front-end
Gain and headphone controls
44.1 kHz and 48.0 kHz/16-bit 
USB Powered 
Less than 6 inches long
USB 1.1 and 2.0 Compatible 

The only differences I can find are the jack out, gain and headphone control.

Jorge.


----------



## SigTest

Thanks, Jorge, I just found another one, MicPort Pro, it has higher sampling rate (i.e. 96kHz) and bit depth (24 Bit):










http://www.centrance.com/products/mp/


----------



## James Bang

Thanks for the suggestion of the Mic Mate Jorge. I now have one on the way to replace the Behringer UB802 mixer I was using to phantom power my mic and transmit the data via a phono cable.

Now I don't have to worry about the extra wires and power supply to plug in. 

I also have the TrueRTA program as well. I'm not sure of some settings though. Especially the input settings. L+R. L-R. R-L. ??? Which one would be ideal for a one mic RTA setup. 

(I have full access to all the levels as well, which I may be able to assist others to obtain it as well for free)


One thing I find helpful on the program, is being able to save the curves on memory. It also brings a question. for saving curves to compare left and right sides, should I use the PEAK HOLD feature before I save, or should I use a very wide average?


----------



## James Bang

got mine in yesterday. I have yet to use it, but it looks to be of good quality. Sure cuts down all the wires I used to need with my old RTA setup


----------



## satsloader

James, my experience has been ( recording at home ), L+R= both channels summed to mono, L-R= left/right stereo, R-L= Right/left stereo ( channels reversed ). I'm assuming that's the options available as you described..

Cheers,

Bill


----------



## James Bang

satsloader said:


> James, my experience has been ( recording at home ), L+R= both channels summed to mono, L-R= left/right stereo, R-L= Right/left stereo ( channels reversed ). I'm assuming that's the options available as you described..
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Bill


Thanks for your reply satsloader. Hopefully I can finish some little adjustments in my install/speaker aiming and start getting some more hands on experience with RTAing.


----------



## jdsimons

Alright guys I order the equipment and hope to see it in a few days.. Get ready for this thread to take off again when I get it cause I'm guessin I will have tons of questions.. .. I spent a good 20 hours in my garage last week sitting in the car listening to music and trying to get it by ear. I am hoping this will help improve effeciency.. lol.. and see where the starting point is. Also one quick question.. It seems that I should EQ the RIGHT side then move over to and EQ the LEFT and then see how the RTA looks when both are playing at the same time?? I'll post up data probably here with what it looks like, well.. unless its really bad.. lol..


----------



## jdsimons

Well it ended up running a bit over $200.. lol.. Mic, Mic MAte, Mic Stand, and the software.. Hope all works good, and seems from those using this system has been pretty happy with its performance..


----------



## 12v Electronics

Got mine today. I will do a side by side test with an Audio Control 3055 shortly. I should have time to do it tonight. I am waiting for the download of the True RTA to show up. I upgraded to the 1/6 octave, but they haven't sent it to my email yet.


----------



## James Bang

I have the 'scoop' for the 1/24 oct.

I'll trade for some tips and tricks


----------



## 12v Electronics

Scoop?


----------



## James Bang

blah. I need to get it off my other HDD. thought it was on my laptop...


----------



## michaelsil1

James Bang said:


> blah. I need to get it off my other HDD. thought it was on my laptop...


Tease!


----------



## 12v Electronics

Well it doesn't look like it is going to happen tonight. No code yet. I think testing it in 1 octave mode would be about as accurate as Ray Charles trying to play a game of darts.


----------



## 12v Electronics

I decided to go ahead and try what I had anyway. 

The RTA used is an Audio Control 3055 certified spectrum analyzer. This is a quick pic I took testing the Hybrid Audio Clarus 6.5's in my car. 










It is kind of hard to tell at 1 octave resolution, but they look surprisingly close. The mic position and everything else was the same. I unplugged the mic from the Audio Control and plugged it into the Mic Mate. 

I decided to mess with the EQ a bit and see if the True RTA would follow. 










Not too bad, but again it is very hard to tell with the 1 octave resolution. You would definitely need at least need the 1/3 octave version to make any decent adjustments. 

Once they send me the registration code for the 1/6 octave version I paid for I will do it again.


----------



## James Bang

See if this would work.

Code: 6482 1F24 041D

That's all I have for now, until I can get to my other HDD


----------



## 12v Electronics

James Bang said:


> See if this would work.
> 
> Code: 6482 1F24 041D
> 
> That's all I have for now, until I can get to my other HDD


Thanks, but that would be piracy 

Besides, I think the registration code is tied to the name you gave upon registration.

Thanks anyway. I will repost when the code arrives.


----------



## ErinH

I had mine set to 24db resolution. Honestly, anything above 12db is overkill. Actually, 6db is plenty sufficient unless you have superman processing controls. 

So, ANYONE WHO'S BUYING THE HIGHER RESOLUTION VERSIONS: 6db is sufficient.


----------



## 12v Electronics

bikinpunk said:


> I had mine set to 24db resolution. Honestly, anything above 12db is overkill. Actually, 6db is plenty sufficient unless you have superman processing controls.
> 
> So, ANYONE WHO'S BUYING THE HIGHER RESOLUTION VERSIONS: 6db is sufficient.


I agree. The 1/3 is all you need. The only reason I went to the 1/6 is becuase of the extra features it has in the signal generator section.

The only other reason I could see for going into higher resolutions is for diagnosing problems with phase, etc. At that point you really need to know what you are doing with it.


----------



## thazy2

OK, apparently you guys are much smarter than I. I have purchase Winml and Smart, usp pre, 8000 mic, and notebook but i cant get anything to work. The settings are too confusing, especially for a newbie like me who doesnt understand all the terminology and how they relate. I really want to learn this stuff. at this point, i am seriously considering Audio Control RTA. I came across this thread today. I will give one last attempt. Would someone please post a step by step "how to" on setting of TruRTA? Apparently, i am that slow : (


example: buy tooth past, bring home, open box, remove cap, dispense small amount onto brush, place under running water, insert into mouth, gently rotate to cover all tooth surfaces, rinse brush under running water, now rinse mouth, then smile. LOL


thanks.......Jason


----------



## BlackSapphire

12v Electronics said:


> Well it doesn't look like it is going to happen tonight. No code yet. I think testing it in 1 octave mode would be about as accurate as Ray Charles trying to play a game of darts.


Not many people know this but Ray Charles is an excellent dart thrower. It's true - check the Wikipedia if you don't believe me.


----------



## jdsimons

Ok I got everything in I ordered a few days ago and have been trying to do some tuning. Unfortunately I really don't have a lot of experience reading and configuring RTA meters. I google searched about an hour and couldn't really find any good info on what to look for and how to set machine settings and parameters. I upload a screen shot of the right front speakers only with no sub. My Question is this if I could get some help: 

Where exactly do I need to keep the input level. If you look at the graph everything is negative and that is with my system almost maxed out at the head unit. The head unit runs into a Audio Control Matrix then front stage goes to 2 Audio Control EQT's. So there are a few places I can go to turn up volume by tweaking input and output levels, but we set the JL amps according to the recommend way using the voltmeter and head unit plugged in with no speakers plugged and staying within their spec for 4 ohm impedance.

Well if anyone here has any thoughts or anything would be great. I basically just turned it up loud and then found what frequency I was lacking in and had to much of others and adjusted accordingly. But not sure if the range is correct with it being in the negatives.. Thanks


----------



## michaelsil1

jdsimons said:


> Ok I got everything in I ordered a few days ago and have been trying to do some tuning. Unfortunately I really don't have a lot of experience reading and configuring RTA meters. I google searched about an hour and couldn't really find any good info on what to look for and how to set machine settings and parameters. I upload a screen shot of the right front speakers only with no sub. My Question is this if I could get some help:
> 
> Where exactly do I need to keep the input level. If you look at the graph everything is negative and that is with my system almost maxed out at the head unit. The head unit runs into a Audio Control Matrix then front stage goes to 2 Audio Control EQT's. So there are a few places I can go to turn up volume by tweaking input and output levels, but we set the JL amps according to the recommend way using the voltmeter and head unit plugged in with no speakers plugged and staying within their spec for 4 ohm impedance.
> 
> Well if anyone here has any thoughts or anything would be great. I basically just turned it up loud and then found what frequency I was lacking in and had to much of others and adjusted accordingly. But not sure if the range is correct with it being in the negatives.. Thanks


Now use your ears to fine tune then measure again.


----------



## 12v Electronics

jdsimons said:


> Ok I got everything in I ordered a few days ago and have been trying to do some tuning. Unfortunately I really don't have a lot of experience reading and configuring RTA meters. I google searched about an hour and couldn't really find any good info on what to look for and how to set machine settings and parameters. I upload a screen shot of the right front speakers only with no sub. My Question is this if I could get some help:
> 
> Where exactly do I need to keep the input level. If you look at the graph everything is negative and that is with my system almost maxed out at the head unit. The head unit runs into a Audio Control Matrix then front stage goes to 2 Audio Control EQT's. So there are a few places I can go to turn up volume by tweaking input and output levels, but we set the JL amps according to the recommend way using the voltmeter and head unit plugged in with no speakers plugged and staying within their spec for 4 ohm impedance.
> 
> Well if anyone here has any thoughts or anything would be great. I basically just turned it up loud and then found what frequency I was lacking in and had to much of others and adjusted accordingly. But not sure if the range is correct with it being in the negatives.. Thanks


Unless you are checking SPL, there is no reason to turn it up that loud. Turning it up loud caused resonances and distortion that will throw off your measurements. 

This is one problem I see with this RTA. There is no input level adjustment, but you can get the same results by choosing a line midpoint between your frequencies and using that as your reference point. The general rule is to cut frequencies rather than boost them, so keep that in mind when tuning.


----------



## 12v Electronics

I had a chance to compare the True RTA 1/3 octave version to the Audio Control 3055. 

I took three shots from the Audio Control RTA and averaged them. I plotted them on a screenshot from the True RTA. The red dots are what the Audio Control unit had measured.










I am pretty impressed with the accuracy. The 200 hz to 5 khz is pretty much right on the money. 

IMO a great deal for the $100.


----------



## slvrtsunami

Tom, thanks for the comparison. I am glad to see an Audiocontrol piece that I used to use in the '90s is still in use. Shopping I go!!


----------



## 12v Electronics

slvrtsunami said:


> Tom, thanks for the comparison. I am glad to see an Audiocontrol piece that I used to use in the '90s is still in use. Shopping I go!!


Still in use and still one of the best for car audio IMO. The one I used is actually a newer model and has a few new features, but still the same old quality. 

Another thing about the True RTA I don't like is the divisions on the graph. It is vey hard to read. Try to find 315 hz. Not quick and easy and there doesn't seem to be a way to change this.


----------



## jdsimons

12v Electronics said:


> Unless you are checking SPL, there is no reason to turn it up that loud. Turning it up loud caused resonances and distortion that will throw off your measurements.
> 
> This is one problem I see with this RTA. There is no input level adjustment, but you can get the same results by choosing a line midpoint between your frequencies and using that as your reference point. The general rule is to cut frequencies rather than boost them, so keep that in mind when tuning.


Thanks for the help and advice. One thing I noticed on your screen shots is your floor is -40db and it looks like your frequencies are almost to 0db and actually had a few frequencies that broke the 0db. If you notice on my screen shot I left the floor way down at -110db and the top at +10db. All of my frequencies I tried to get flat and ended up at -31db any real reason for this. I also set the Mic Mate to High cause when set to low it lowered even more so. 

On your thoughts on trying to cut frequencies I set my Source Unit's 9 band EQ to -6db and set all frequencies on the EQT's to 0db. Just as the starting point and see how flat the rta was. Then I adjusted the Eqt's to level up each of the frequencies. Should I set the Source units 9 band EQ to flat 0db rather then the way bottom of -6db. I always thought to start at the bottom so I could have a little more adjustment room, but that might be bad logic. THanks again for all the help.


----------



## 12v Electronics

jdsimons said:


> Thanks for the help and advice. One thing I noticed on your screen shots is your floor is -40db and it looks like your frequencies are almost to 0db and actually had a few frequencies that broke the 0db. If you notice on my screen shot I left the floor way down at -110db and the top at +10db. All of my frequencies I tried to get flat and ended up at -31db any real reason for this. I also set the Mic Mate to High cause when set to low it lowered even more so.
> 
> On your thoughts on trying to cut frequencies I set my Source Unit's 9 band EQ to -6db and set all frequencies on the EQT's to 0db. Just as the starting point and see how flat the rta was. Then I adjusted the Eqt's to level up each of the frequencies. Should I set the Source units 9 band EQ to flat 0db rather then the way bottom of -6db. I always thought to start at the bottom so I could have a little more adjustment room, but that might be bad logic. THanks again for all the help.


Don't get too caught up on the 0db mark. Since the input gain is not really adjustable on this, just pick any flat line and use it as your 0 db point. Youe EQ curve is the important thing, not the 0 db mark. Also make sure you have set the volume controls on your laptop correctly as per the instructions. 

BTW, The screenshot I used is from a very badly EQ'ed car. Normally you would zoom in a bit when fine tuning.

As far as your source unit, I would set it all to 0 db and use the EQ to make the adjustments.


----------



## jdsimons

Ok I will have to do that 12v thanks for all the help. Ya notice a couple of dips in that sq car..


----------



## skibum

I just got mine in today. Ordered the mic and micmate from americanmusical.com

Both for 99 and change shipped. Got the 1/24 octave truerta also. Cant wait til this weekend so I can tune.


----------



## AAAAAAA

This with the H701 are the best investments I have done yet for my system.

Thanks lots doitor.


----------



## doitor

AAAAAAA said:


> This with the H701 are the best investments I have done yet for my system.
> 
> Thanks lots doitor.


Glad to help.

Jorge.


----------



## X Ray

I was reading this thread and it had me interested in True RTA. I downloaded it, and was trying to get it to work. I figured I'd dig out the measurement mic that came with my Alpine H650 to see if I could get it to work with True RTA, so I was digging through boxes in the garage....... 

LOOK WHAT I FOUND!! 

I totally forgot I had this! I could have sworn I sold this thing years ago. SWEET!! When you find stuff you forgot you had, it's almost like getting free $hit!  It's been a long time since I've been into car audio, but now that I've been bitten by the bug again, i'll put it to good use all over again. 

(the a/c was on when I took the pics, hence the low frequencies)


----------



## AAAAAAA

So playing around with it and truRTA, it seems as though it's way to sensitive to low frequencies, I got it to look very flat but when llistening to it there was no lows at all (I was expecting it when tuning since my midbase had to be at the lowest setting). 

Any ideas? I tried to look and find the "weight" A, B or C but couldn't locate it.

I am starting to think that calibrating the mic is going to be a must.


----------



## michaelsil1

AAAAAAA said:


> So playing around with it and truRTA, it seems as though it's way to sensitive to low frequencies, I got it to look very flat but when llistening to it there was no lows at all (I was expecting it when tuning since my midbase had to be at the lowest setting).
> 
> Any ideas? I tried to look and find the "weight" A, B or C but couldn't locate it.
> 
> I am starting to think that calibrating the mic is going to be a must.


I don't think True RTA has any Weighting.


----------



## 12v Electronics

AAAAAAA said:


> So playing around with it and truRTA, it seems as though it's way to sensitive to low frequencies, I got it to look very flat but when llistening to it there was no lows at all (I was expecting it when tuning since my midbase had to be at the lowest setting).
> 
> Any ideas? I tried to look and find the "weight" A, B or C but couldn't locate it.
> 
> I am starting to think that calibrating the mic is going to be a must.


Calibrating the mic as well as the PC _*IS*_ a must.

Flat is just what the name implies. If you shoot for flat, the bass will not be at any higher of a level than the rest of your frequencies.


----------



## AAAAAAA

I will have to investigate how to calibrate the mic and PC. I did some reading and said measurement mics can use calibrating but if you don't care about the precise result but more for the the relitive results then it wouldn't need it.

But the PC might still require the calibration it would seem.

The thing about loosing all the lows, because flat should still mean I hear sometihng coming form my mids, what I am getting at is for it to be flat the left side hat to be at 0 on my h701 and right at 1 (it goes to 13). So basically background noise coming from the neighbourhood is all I need to make it apear flat. So it doens't make much sense.


----------



## Timmah318

having seen 1 octave RTA, I would recommend 1/3 at LEAST. Another software package to look at is SMAART by ewa - fully functioning for 30 days, and easy interface, and great features


----------



## BMWturbo

Try ARTA also, Since my WinMLS code ran out I've been using it.

http://www.fesb.hr/~mateljan/arta/download.htm


----------



## arcman

anyone have a mic and usb set up they want to sell ?


----------



## rekd0514

I want to get an RTA setup like this for sure. Thanks for posting this up! It seems to me though after reading through this thread and playing with the free TrueRTA version that a lot left unexplained in this thread. 

It would be sweet if someone could make a guide of the proper settings for doing various things on it. What exactly to put it on for level matching each set of speakers and sub. Doing the frequency analysis on each set of drivers. 

I was also wondering if you can use the oscilloscope to see if your tweeters are set correctly. Also can you do time alignment with this equipment like npdang does in his tutorial? What do you have to do to setup this up for accurate db testing? The list goes on it seems. I have an idea of how to do averaging but not exactly sure on it. 

What about Mic Cal File, House Curve File, Sound System Correction, Input/Output Frequency, the different Calibrations. What applies when using this USB setup when usually you would be using a sound card.


----------



## chuyler1

skibum said:


> I just got mine in today. Ordered the mic and micmate from americanmusical.com
> 
> Both for 99 and change shipped. Got the 1/24 octave truerta also. Cant wait til this weekend so I can tune.


Does the Mic Mate have a cable with it or do I need to buy one of those also? I just need to go from my laptop to ear-height in my car


----------



## doitor

From the Mic Mate to the computer you need one of those printer USB cables.
The ones with the funky square usb conector on one side and a regular rectangular USB on the other.
The Mic Mate plugs directly to the mic on the other side, or you could use an XLR cable i you need more lenght.


Jorge.


----------



## braves6117

rekd0514 said:


> I want to get an RTA setup like this for sure. Thanks for posting this up! It seems to me though after reading through this thread and playing with the free TrueRTA version that a lot left unexplained in this thread.
> 
> It would be sweet if someone could make a guide of the proper settings for doing various things on it. What exactly to put it on for level matching each set of speakers and sub. Doing the frequency analysis on each set of drivers.
> 
> I was also wondering if you can use the oscilloscope to see if your tweeters are set correctly. Also can you do time alignment with this equipment like npdang does in his tutorial? What do you have to do to setup this up for accurate db testing? The list goes on it seems. I have an idea of how to do averaging but not exactly sure on it.
> 
> What about Mic Cal File, House Curve File, Sound System Correction, Input/Output Frequency, the different Calibrations. What applies when using this USB setup when usually you would be using a sound card.


Anybody want to take this request on? I know theres a bunch of people that would benefit from it.


----------



## rekd0514

It would be very helpful. I mean I understand the basics of what everything does, but if I am going to put the money and work into analyzing the sound I want to at least be doing it the proper way. Basically instead of just guessing what I am doing and not getting good results from it. I don't really want to spend $150 on a setup just to play around on it. I can already do that with the free software and a mic.


----------



## chuyler1

12v Electronics said:


> I had a chance to compare the True RTA 1/3 octave version to the Audio Control 3055.
> 
> I took three shots from the Audio Control RTA and averaged them. I plotted them on a screenshot from the True RTA. The red dots are what the Audio Control unit had measured.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am pretty impressed with the accuracy. The 200 hz to 5 khz is pretty much right on the money.
> 
> IMO a great deal for the $100.


This was all I needed to be convinced. I just placed my order at https://www.americanmusical.com.

I'm willing to bet that the differences you see in the comparison above would go away as you got the system closer to a smooth curve. After all, both systems accurately report bass 20-40hz levels in addition to 200-5KHz. Lower the bass and the major descrepences between 50-200Hz won't be different by 10db anymore.

It could also be a factor of how TrueRTA (or AudioControl) averages levels. This could easily explain why the sloping sections of the graphs differ while the flat sections are relatively equal.

Anyway, based on your assesment, it is more than enough proof to me that the system is accurate enough for enthusiast tuning...and as an alternative to the popular MobilePre from M-Audio I think I would rather have this because it reduces the number of wires I have to fiddle with.


----------



## rekd0514

chuyler1 said:


> This was all I needed to be convinced. I just placed my order at https://www.americanmusical.com.
> 
> I'm willing to bet that the differences you see in the comparison above would go away as you got the system closer to a smooth curve. After all, both systems accurately report bass 20-40hz levels in addition to 200-5KHz. Lower the bass and the major descrepences between 50-200Hz won't be different by 10db anymore.
> 
> It could also be a factor of how TrueRTA (or AudioControl) averages levels. This could easily explain why the sloping sections of the graphs differ while the flat sections are relatively equal.
> 
> Anyway, based on your assesment, it is more than enough proof to me that the system is accurate enough for enthusiast tuning...and as an alternative to the popular MobilePre from M-Audio I think I would rather have this because it reduces the number of wires I have to fiddle with.


Exactly why I want to get one of these. I can play around with my car/home/computer speakers for cheap with good results.


----------



## chuyler1

Damn that was fast. My shipment from american musical already arrived! 

Just an FYI for others, the Mic Mate has a square USB input. You will need a USB printer cable. I was thinking my USB extension cord would work but nope, you do need the square adapter that is found on the end of a printer/peripheral cable. I think I've got one in my box of wires...if not I'll be going printer-less for a few days while I try out my new setup.


----------



## braves6117

rekd0514 said:


> It would be sweet if someone could make a guide of the proper settings for doing various things on it. What exactly to put it on for level matching each set of speakers and sub. Doing the frequency analysis on each set of drivers.
> 
> I was also wondering if you can use the oscilloscope to see if your tweeters are set correctly. Also can you do time alignment with this equipment like npdang does in his tutorial? What do you have to do to setup this up for accurate db testing? The list goes on it seems. I have an idea of how to do averaging but not exactly sure on it.



Bump for this ^^^^^^request, I'm still battling here!


----------



## chuyler1

Time Alignment
Cannot be done with TrueRTA that I am aware of. You'll have to do it by ear or with some other software. If someone were to suggest another software suite (preferrably free or at least free-trial) that would be great.

DB testing
If you mean SPL output, I don't believe the ECM8000 should be used for that sort of thing. A calibrated SPL mic should be used instead.


----------



## rekd0514

Not really to test db for SPL which I think you very well could with this mic. Maybe not as accurate though. I was just wanting to use it for level matching.


----------



## ErinH

chuyler1 said:


> Time Alignment
> Cannot be done with TrueRTA that I am aware of. You'll have to do it by ear or with some other software. If someone were to suggest another software suite (preferrably free or at least free-trial) that would be great.
> 
> DB testing
> If you mean SPL output, I don't believe the ECM8000 should be used for that sort of thing. A calibrated SPL mic should be used instead.


t/a can be done with arta. it's free.


----------



## Sillyboy

So, I picked up the mic and fancy usb adapter and sorta kinda vaguely tried it out, but... I don't actually know what I am doing 

while normally a windows guy, my bestest lappy is a mac, so I downloaded (trial version I guess?) of FuzzMeasure. I downloaded (a potentially lame?) version of pink noise in mp3 format and put it on my ipod.

Told FuzzMeasure to ... measure... while I played the pink noise and got a graph, but it seems unlikely'ish to me.

Given the huge range of decibels, and that I generally find the tweeters "too loud" (and I don't see that in the graph), I am skeptical of my technique. 

Normally FuzzMeasure plays a sweep, but I dont have an easy way to get that into my system.

Attached a screenshot, notice the crazy dip at 1k. 35db diff from there to the large bass numbers? skeptical.

Anyone have thoughts (other than... go away n00b ) ?


----------



## jdsimons

I used a mac also to do my testing but I use Apple's FREE dual boot and used windows.. lol.. its worth the 100 bucks for a seat of xp on a apple, runs great  I am not sure about the software your using, wish i could help out there but I ended up buying the TrueRTA softare anyway not sure if there is any good free software for Apple or not.. I may do some looking and see whats out there. About your 1k frequency dip, most people don't like the sound of a flat rta anyway so if you want less tweet then leave.. I use Quarts and on my rta meter showed they were very high so I had to reduce the crossovers to about -2 to -4 db's on the tweeters and made a big difference in getting rid of the harshness of the tweeters at high level and even lower level.. 

I think I'm gonna go check out that software and see how it compares to TrueRTA on the same computer and see if it is as accurate and such.. Will post screenshots when I can get that ok..


----------



## chuyler1

From what I can see, your sub gain is pretty high. Nothing wrong with that.
You've got a resonating freq between 250-400Hz which is common with door installations, you may want to cut that range with an EQ.


As for the 1KHz drop, that looks to me like cancelation, or possibly you have a 700Hz crossover point (I hope not). Discconnect both tweeters and subwoofer and run the mids by themself. Check the RTA again to see if the 1K is still there. If it is, try reversing the polarity of one of your mids. You can do the same test for your tweeters as well (run them separate). Finally connect tweeters and mids and see how things work. Try reversing the polarity of both tweeters to see how it looks. Etc, etc, etc. Lastly, connect the subwoofer and try reversing polarity to see which works best.


----------



## Sillyboy

Ya, I have been meaning to get Windows installed on my MacBook Pro, but I can never decide between parallels, vmware and boot camp... so I keep doing nothing 

Anyway, lets ignore measurements from my car for a moment and look again at our $100 RTA...

I can confused by what I am seeing here. I used FuzzMeasure twice... with the only changed being "built in mic" to "usb codec". to my untrained eyes, the built in actually looks a flatter? (which isn't to say it *should* be super flat, I man... the output is coming from a tiny computer speaker).

Also not sure what the more "fuzzy" nature of the ecm8000 implies (like more smoothing was required to make it look okay).


----------



## jdsimons

Well I downloaded the Fuzzmeasure and can tell you as of now I absolutely hate it..lol.. I guess I am not sure how to change most of the settings on this thing. But I would definately use the usb Microphone, I'm guess the laptop mic will not be able to pick up a full frequency range from 20hz to 20khz with any kind of accuracy, it may, but I guessing not. After trying to use that program for a few hours I went back to TrueRta and the measurements were nothing alike. I think I also had the same case where it dipped severely around the 1k mark to around 2.5, which should not be true. When I took the measurement back to the TrueRTA software that valley was gone and had a more controlled curve. That is from the same laptop, usb port, same mic, same position and same volume. Reading what that software is capable of, I thought it may have been better then the true Rta software but also tends to be a more complex I guess. Fuzzmeasure says that it can measure distortion and resonances also, just not sure how the setup the program to tell me all that stuff.. Thats the software newbie in me I guess.. lol ..


----------



## Sillyboy

Hrm, apparently I really do have an issue at 1k, even according to ghetto free version of True RTA


----------



## xlynoz

I want to make sure I got everything straight in my head before I place the order.

Here is the hardware I will need:
Behringer ECM8000
MXL USB Mic Mate XLR to USB Preamp Converter
XLR Cable (connect Mic Mate to Behringer)
USB Cable (connect Mic Mate to PC)
Mic stand and boom

Can someone confirm that a sound card is not needed. My laptop has one but it sucks. I just don't want to have to purchase another one if I don't need to. If this is the case is it just a direct configuration of the pre-mic / mic in TrueRTA?

Also there has been mention of having to calibrate the mic and PC. Is there a preset file that I can use for this?

If everyone can pitch in on the data I would be more than happy to pull it all together for a tutorial on how to set up and use this configuration.


----------



## 12v Electronics

xlynoz said:


> I want to make sure I got everything straight in my head before I place the order.
> 
> Here is the hardware I will need:
> Behringer ECM8000
> MXL USB Mic Mate XLR to USB Preamp Converter
> XLR Cable (connect Mic Mate to Behringer)
> USB Cable (connect Mic Mate to PC)
> Mic stand and boom
> 
> Can someone confirm that a sound card is not needed. My laptop has one but it sucks. I just don't want to have to purchase another one if I don't need to. If this is the case is it just a direct configuration of the pre-mic / mic in TrueRTA?
> 
> Also there has been mention of having to calibrate the mic and PC. Is there a preset file that I can use for this?
> 
> If everyone can pitch in on the data I would be more than happy to pull it all together for a tutorial on how to set up and use this configuration.


That is all you will need. The Mic Mate replaces the input side of your sound card. Changing the sound card is not necessary.

There is a calibration file for the ECM8000 built into the software and the PC calibration is simple to do. There are good instructions in the help section of the software.


----------



## chuyler1

If you get a long enough USB cable you don't need an XLR cable. The end of the MicMate screws off so you can hook the Mic up directly. Remember that you need a printer-style USB cable (rectangular on one end, square on the other).


----------



## Sillyboy

How do I get myself into these things? 

After spending money on Parallels to let me run Vista on ye' old mac lappy, and spending money on TrueRTA to get better resolution... I still don't know what is going on 

Note: I did swap the +/- on the left side... meh.

I tried my semi-normal listening setup w/ all kinds of wackyness enabled on the head unit (bbe, extra bass and such)... with a different pink noise file. Valley of death at 1kz, spike of death at ~3kz. And some suggestion of gynormous amounts of bass. (ya, right)

The 2nd one is with all the fancyness turned, bass/treble at zero, and I sorta manually balanced the sub against the frequency response graph. And, this was a sweep... w/ truerta setup to store the "peeks". Same epic trough/peak at 1khz/3khz, consistent is good 

Two things:
- the graph lies  In listening, what you really notice is "oh, alot of volume is coming from the tweeters". the good news is these tweeters are not harsh at all, so its listenable... but even my wife noted "the tweeters seem loud". sub-note, I am using the built in cross over w/ the ID component set.

- um, my door install. ya, holes. Is this likely causing my trauma and cancellation? Pic from my 5th blog entry:


----------



## chuyler1

Cancelation, as I said before is most likely due to swapped polarity on one or more speakers. Disconnect everything and tune speakers one at a time, and two at a time. left midbass, right midbass, then left and right midbass together, etc etc.

As for going for a flat response, most people don't enjoy that much treble so often times we tune for a downward sloping response which means more bass and less tweeter.

Use the RTA for a visual, and correct things with your ear. If your corrections don't sound right to your ear, they probably aren't the right corrections...


----------



## chuyler1

dbl post.


----------



## Sillyboy

chuyler1...


Sillyboy said:


> Note: I did swap the +/- on the left side... meh.


I run component speakers w/ the passive crossover that came with them. So... I don't think I have any realistic way to tune the tweeters/mid separately.

Swapping the polarity of one side (at the amp), didn't seem to have any impact.

maybe its time to man up and use the 4 channel amp to drive just the front tweeters and woofers. really wish I had a fancy deck w/ a mic that just made everything magically work


----------



## xlynoz

Sillyboy said:


> chuyler1...
> 
> 
> I run component speakers w/ the passive crossover that came with them. So... I don't think I have any realistic way to tune the tweeters/mid separately.
> 
> Swapping the polarity of one side (at the amp), didn't seem to have any impact.
> 
> maybe its time to man up and use the 4 channel amp to drive just the front tweeters and woofers. really wish I had a fancy deck w/ a mic that just made everything magically work


Sure you can. Make your phase swaps at the output of the passive crossover. For tuning individually pull the tweeter/mid connection one at time at the crossover.


----------



## xlynoz

12v Electronics said:


> That is all you will need. The Mic Mate replaces the input side of your sound card. Changing the sound card is not necessary.
> 
> There is a calibration file for the ECM8000 built into the software and the PC calibration is simple to do. There are good instructions in the help section of the software.


Great news. I will get this ordered. Once I get it in I will start on a step by step tutorial. Please everyone I'm sure I will be asking questions so any help you provide will be helping the forum.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Sillyboy

xlynoz said:


> Sure you can. Make your phase swaps at the output of the passive crossover. For tuning individually pull the tweeter/mid connection one at time at the crossover.


That makes sense  And I actually though of that, but recall reading an article some moons ago about destroying tweeters if something went wrong w/ your crossover... and got scared. This is clearly different.

Though, given swapping the +/- on left side (admittedly for both tweeter and woofer) seemed to have no impact... do we actually think swapping at the crossover will make any difference?


----------



## ericnord

Is it cheaper to get the mic that comes w/ the Alpine kit for $29.99. Then all you need to do is buy TrueRTA:

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=140&i=500KTXH100&search=h100&tp=116&tab=detailed_info


----------



## michaelsil1

ericnord said:


> Is it cheaper to get the mic that comes w/ the Alpine kit for $29.99. Then all you need to do is buy TrueRTA:
> 
> http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=140&i=500KTXH100&search=h100&tp=116&tab=detailed_info


The cheaper you go the less accurate your measurements.


----------



## doitor

ericnord said:


> Is it cheaper to get the mic that comes w/ the Alpine kit for $29.99. Then all you need to do is buy TrueRTA:
> 
> http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=140&i=500KTXH100&search=h100&tp=116&tab=detailed_info


You need a measurement mic with a known flat response to get good accurate results.
I can loan you mine along with the micmate if you want.

Jorge.


----------



## ericnord

Thnx Jorge,

You still coming up this way end of the week?


----------



## doitor

ericnord said:


> Thnx Jorge,
> 
> You still coming up this way end of the week?


Yes.
Sending you a pm right now.

Jorge.


----------



## arcman

I was having problems getting room eq and TrueRTA to work correctly for some reason, seems to be picking up noise, even if I unplug the mic it is still showing results?? Anyways, I found another small rta program that got me going so I could do some tuning for now.

http://www.e.kth.se/~johk/jdft/download.html 
it took only a few second to download and worked instantly


----------



## Sillyboy

Another USB -> XLR converter:
http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BLU-ICICLE

No idea if its better/worse/same than the other one in this thread, but thought I would pass it along.


----------



## handy

http://bb-measurement.angelfire.com/

anyone us it?


----------



## aztec1

12v Electronics said:


> I had a chance to compare the True RTA 1/3 octave version to the Audio Control 3055.
> 
> I took three shots from the Audio Control RTA and averaged them. I plotted them on a screenshot from the True RTA. The red dots are what the Audio Control unit had measured.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am pretty impressed with the accuracy. The 200 hz to 5 khz is pretty much right on the money.
> 
> IMO a great deal for the $100.


OP, this is freakin fantastic! Great find and writeup!

This pretty much makes the sale for me. I'm about to pull the trigger on this setup, I just recently acquired an old laptop. What kind of calibration was needed to get this kind of accuracy, or was it just plug and play with the USB?


----------



## 12v Electronics

aztec1 said:


> OP, this is freakin fantastic! Great find and writeup!
> 
> This pretty much makes the sale for me. I'm about to pull the trigger on this setup, I just recently acquired an old laptop. What kind of calibration was needed to get this kind of accuracy, or was it just plug and play with the USB?


It is plug and play. you will need to calibrate your computer's hardware and there is good information in the program on how to do it. 

For the record, I am not the OP. Doitor deserves all of the credit for this find.


----------



## aztec1

12v Electronics said:


> It is plug and play. you will need to calibrate your computer's hardware and there is good information in the program on how to do it.
> 
> For the record, I am not the OP. Doitor deserves all of the credit for this find.


Doitor, many thanks for finding this! 12V Electronics, many thanks for verifying it's accuracy! 

Cheers guys, I can't wait to see what the system is capable of now :laugh3:


----------



## donkeypunch22

I'm pulling the trigger. Thanks Doitor, Jorge, and 12V Electronics for the help and verification.


----------



## handy

12v Electronics said:


> I had a chance to compare the True RTA 1/3 octave version to the Audio Control 3055.
> 
> I took three shots from the Audio Control RTA and averaged them. I plotted them on a screenshot from the True RTA. The red dots are what the Audio Control unit had measured.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am pretty impressed with the accuracy. The 200 hz to 5 khz is pretty much right on the money.
> 
> IMO a great deal for the $100.


imho for better measurement on that response i think u must use the Mic Cal typ Gold Line MK8A calibration file that came with the true rta. the high frequency response is down about same level as it.
Mic cal typ Goldline MK8A







or if that response didn't match the RTA 3055 u can use other mic callibration file until that response match or close.


----------



## Megalomaniac

I bought it today, $50 in the store, $39 on the website, I made them price match..

MXL Mic Mate XLR to USB Mic Interface with Phantom Power and more Audio Interfaces and Convertors at GuitarCenter.com.

i need to buy the mic now. I was looking at the ec8k but now i was told to invest in the DBx rta mic. $100
dbx | RTA-M Microphone | RTA-M | B&H Photo Video


----------



## donkeypunch22

Dudes, been measuring every stereo I can. Love this TrueRTA and the ECM8000/MicMate set up. I would post my results, like some other people have, but I can't figure out how to get the graphs up. Pointers anyone?

Anyhow, I measured my brothers car. F1 system, DLS amps - all active, with DLS 6.3 ultimate iridiums up front, DLS 6.2 ul irid in back, 4 ported DLS 10s. Man, I need to tune his stuff! So much potential not being optimized. He never got around to setting the TA or EQ. Infact, I'm going to redo his crossovers, phase, and level settings. He has way too much bass, and the mids are louder than the highend! There are problems from 250-800, dips and peaks. Also a dip in 3.5 to 4.5 kHz.

I wish I was as smart as npdang, then I could tune this system no problem! As it is, this F1 stuff is almost overload, and I know it's going to take me a couple weeks to get it right. Oh well, nothing good in life is easy. Wish me luck guys.

PS- thanks to Doiter again.


----------



## 12v Electronics

handy said:


> imho for better measurement on that response i think u must use the Mic Cal typ Gold Line MK8A calibration file that came with the true rta. the high frequency response is down about same level as it.
> Mic cal typ Goldline MK8A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or if that response didn't match the RTA 3055 u can use other mic callibration file until that response match or close.


The key is to match your analyzer to the mic, not pick different calibration files to make your sound system look better. 

That is like fantasizing about your sister-in-law while doing your wife.


----------



## chuyler1

I've been using mine to experiment with room placement of my home speakers...
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-took-break-mobile-audio-went-full-range.html

It works great!


----------



## smgreen20

My laptop has a bulit in mic and after downloading the free version I ran a test and my mic works w/the program. So I didn't even have to spend the $100


----------



## chuyler1

Your laptop mic isn't going to give you a reliably flat reading, especially down low and up high. It should be fine to diagnose major midrange issues but if you want a proper tune, you'll need a decent mic.

Besides, how did you take a reading? Did you hold the laptop up to your face and turn it around?


----------



## 12v Electronics

Reference mics are what you want to use. Computer mics and Mr. Microphone's will do nothing else but give you a pretty display on your computer to look at.


----------



## radattack

thanks for this post. Ended up 85 bucks for both things at guitar center online after a ten percent coupon thingie.


----------



## Megalomaniac

Look what came today.


----------



## Megalomaniac

I am still learning the software


----------



## faiz23

not bad


----------



## michaelsil1

Megalomaniac said:


> I am still learning the software


Frequency Range Start 1Hz End 0Hz


----------



## Megalomaniac

thats if I used the laptop to chirp the pink noise


----------



## mdbayler

I just purchased the Mic Mate and ECM8000 combo along with TrueRTA. I hooked it up tonight and played some pink noise in the car and the results were just plain WRONG. The levels continued to rise at a smooth slope as the frequency rose and it showed that the high end was about 20dB higher than the low end.

I had an Audio Control RTA available and when I used it I saw a much more realistic frequency response. I hooked up the Audio Control mic to my Mic Mate and received similar readouts on TrueRTA.

I used the ECM8000 calibration file included with TrueRTA but it didn't seem to have much effect on the measurements. Has anyone else compared the measurements taken using an ECM8000 with other higher quality mics? I've thought about sending the mic off to get a calibration file done for it, but it seems so far off to begin with that I am wondering if there is something wrong with the mic.

Any thoughts?


----------



## mdbayler

mdbayler said:


> I just purchased the Mic Mate and ECM8000 combo along with TrueRTA. I hooked it up tonight and played some pink noise in the car and the results were just plain WRONG. The levels continued to rise at a smooth slope as the frequency rose and it showed that the high end was about 20dB higher than the low end.
> 
> I had an Audio Control RTA available and when I used it I saw a much more realistic frequency response. I hooked up the Audio Control mic to my Mic Mate and received similar readouts on TrueRTA.
> 
> I used the ECM8000 calibration file included with TrueRTA but it didn't seem to have much effect on the measurements. Has anyone else compared the measurements taken using an ECM8000 with other higher quality mics? I've thought about sending the mic off to get a calibration file done for it, but it seems so far off to begin with that I am wondering if there is something wrong with the mic.
> 
> Any thoughts?


Here's some pictures that might better explain what I'm seeing.

This is a 1/3 octave reading using the AudioControl RTA mic. This matches the AudioControl RTA pretty well.








This is a 1/24 octave reading using the AudioControl RTA mic.








This is a 1/24 octave reading using the Behringer mic with no calibration file.








This is a 1/24 octave reading using the Behringer mic with the calibration file provided by TrueRTA.








:surprised:


----------



## 12v Electronics

Looks like a bad mic to me. I have also tried the Audio Control calibrated test mic and the results were very close to the Behringer. 

Is the mic even picking anything up? If you tap it does it show on the rta?


----------



## chuyler1

If I'm reading that last graph correctly, the loudest freq is at -85db. That pretty much means you aren't getting anything from the mic. Try switching the mic mate to a higher sensitivity or turning up the volume to see if it will pick up a signal.


----------



## 12v Electronics

chuyler1 said:


> If I'm reading that last graph correctly, the loudest freq is at -85db. That pretty much means you aren't getting anything from the mic. Try switching the mic mate to a higher sensitivity or turning up the volume to see if it will pick up a signal.


The sensitivity of the Behringer and AC are very close. The switch on the Mic mate will not make that much of a differnce. 

I agree that it doesn't look like the mic is picking anything up. I assume you used the same mic cable for both and checked the connections?? You may also want to make sure the connector is seated fully in the mic.


----------



## Rudeboy

It might also be useful to see what you get with no mic connected.


----------



## mdbayler

Good call on the mic cable. I actually used different cables with the two mics since the AudioControl mic already had a long cable for hookup to the RTA. I just tried plugging the mic directly into the preamp and I received a frequency response more similar to the AudioControl mic. 

I guess it's back to the music store tomorrow to get a new cable. I hope they have a good exchange policy since I ditched the packaging and receipt. Who would have thought that problems would arise due to a $9.00 cable?

Thanks for the input guys.


----------



## 12v Electronics

mdbayler said:


> Good call on the mic cable. I actually used different cables with the two mics since the AudioControl mic already had a long cable for hookup to the RTA. I just tried plugging the mic directly into the preamp and I received a frequency response more similar to the AudioControl mic.
> 
> I guess it's back to the music store tomorrow to get a new cable. I hope they have a good exchange policy since I ditched the packaging and receipt. Who would have thought that problems would arise due to a $9.00 cable?
> 
> Thanks for the input guys.


Glad you got it figured out.


----------



## chuyler1

I just grabbed a USB extension cable. I connect the Mic mate directly to the mic and then use the USB cable for the run to my laptop.


----------



## qstarin

James Bang said:


> I have the 'scoop' for the 1/24 oct.
> 
> I'll trade for some tips and tricks


like this?

(deleted) please keep this to PM.

I also see Amazon has the mic, usb converter, and 15' xlr cable all together for $100 right now.

I have the mic from the Imprint kit, but I lost whatever bookmarks I had on this site about using it for RTA.

If anyone knows links to such, and posts them, I will be very grateful.


----------



## johnmasters

Thread resurrection...

I am almost finished with my current install and hadnt thought to much about RTA because of expense until I saw this thread. Then it occured to me that maybe I already have what I need to build an RTA...

I have the following...

a G4/533 Desktop
W/ a Delta audio sound card and breakout box
Attached to a Mackie 1202 Mixing board with phantom power
w/ an AKG compression Microphone

Is software all that I am missing or will this hardware not work for some reason? I also have some other low end microphones laying around somewhere.


----------



## VTECnicalAccord

Has anyone else had any luck using the calibration file within the TrueRTA to calibrate the ECM8000? Jorge had mentioned getting the calibrated mic but I'd just won one on eBay for fairly cheap. Curious if I should re-ebay that and get the other pre-calibrated mic. 

Any thoughts?


----------



## less

Thanks for this Jorge. I think I am going to go with this - even though I know you recommend a calibrated microphone now. Honestly, I really like to tune to my ear, but I think overall this should be a good tuning tool in helping me ear tune - by pointing up holes and humps that I know are there, but can't isolate.

Its also in my price range lol. It'll be a treat for not smoking and once its been used and my settings are done... I'll probably just sell it.

All the best!
Jim


----------



## VTECnicalAccord

Jim if you're planning to build one with the old mic setup I have an uncalibrated ECM I'll let you have for pretty cheap. Shoot me a PM if you're interested. I'd bought it off eBay before hearing Jorge's recommendation of the calibrated unit.


----------



## doitor

Here's another good option for a cheap measurement mic.

Parts-Express.comayton EMM-6 Electret Measurement Microphone | Dayton EMM-6 measurement mic measurement microphone mic microphone electret mic electret microphone speaker mic test microphone test mic recording mic recording microphone

It looks like a clone of the Behringer, it's a lot cheaper and it comes with it's own calibration response graph.

J.


----------



## michaelsil1

I believe that the Behringer ECM 8000 comes with a calibration file now.


----------



## VTECnicalAccord

I thought the TrueRTA program came with a calibration file?


----------



## michaelsil1

VTECnicalAccord said:


> I thought the TrueRTA program came with a calibration file?


That file doesn't compensate for the differences in each ECM 8000. I sent my ECM 8000 off and got a calibration file that I inputted into my RTA.


----------



## VTECnicalAccord

michaelsil1 said:


> That file doesn't compensate for the differences in each ECM 8000. I sent my ECM 8000 off and got a calibration file that I inputted into my RTA.


Oh, OK that's where I was confused. I jumped the gun and bought the ECM prior to getting Jorge's suggestion of buying the calibrated mic.


----------



## captainobvious

VTECnicalAccord said:


> Oh, OK that's where I was confused. I jumped the gun and bought the ECM prior to getting Jorge's suggestion of buying the calibrated mic.


There is a better calibration file for the ECM8000 located here than what is located in the TrueRTA calibration file. folder.http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/BehringerECM8000corrections.txt


----------



## VTECnicalAccord

Forgive my ignorance but what is that or how do I use it rather? You're saying this could be used to calibrate the regular ECM as opposed to buying the calibrated one I assume then?


----------



## michaelsil1

VTECnicalAccord said:


> Forgive my ignorance but what is that or how do I use it rather? You're saying this could be used to calibrate the regular ECM as opposed to buying the calibrated one I assume then?


The Microphone isn't Calibrated the Data Sheet is so you can offset the discrepancies in the Microphone. 
Each ECM 8000 is going to measure different; you're better off getting one with the Calibration File so you can input the values for that Microphone.


----------



## VTECnicalAccord

michaelsil1 said:


> Each ECM 8000 is going to measure different; you're better off getting one with the Calibration File so you can input the values for that Microphone.


Like such?

Cross·Spectrum - Calibrated Behringer ECM8000 Microphones for Sale


----------



## michaelsil1

VTECnicalAccord said:


> Like such?
> 
> Cross·Spectrum - Calibrated Behringer ECM8000 Microphones for Sale


That's where I sent mine.


----------



## VTECnicalAccord

michaelsil1 said:


> That's where I sent mine.


What did they charge you to send yours? I have a non-calibrated one and was planning to sell it and buy another from them. Cheaper to send mine to them I'd assume?


----------



## michaelsil1

VTECnicalAccord said:


> What did they charge you to send yours? I have a non-calibrated one and was planning to sell it and buy another from them. Cheaper to send mine to them I'd assume?


I don't remember how much I paid, but I think it cost me around $60.00 plus shipping.

I can't believe the deal you can get now; it's really quite a bit cheaper to just buy it from Cross Spectrum.


----------



## VTECnicalAccord

michaelsil1 said:


> I don't remember how much I paid, but I think it cost me around $60.00 plus shipping.
> 
> I can't believe the deal you can get now; it's really quite a bit cheaper to just buy it from Cross Spectrum.


For 60 bucks I'd just skip it and buy a new one from them and re-eBay my old one. Maybe they'll take mine in trade, LOL.

I think Jorge suggested just the basic mic from them. ANyone see any advantges to using the plus or premiums?


----------



## Lars Ulriched

Since im unable to get a hand on mic mate can anyone here tell me if i can use this instead Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround 5.1?


----------



## Austin

I just got my mic mate today at guitar center. This is a test with the free 1 octave on my home 2 way speakers. It's about 6" away from the mid and tweeter. I have a feeling this is going to get a lot more fun when i get the 1/3 octave version 










P.S. The low end is taken care of by my sub about two feet away so that explains the big bump.


----------



## JayinMI

Did you also calibrate the micmate to the PC?
I saw some stuff in this thread, and saw a bunch of people using M-Audio's Mobile Pre USB, using a loopback setup to calibrate the Mobile Pre, as well as the mic...however, I don't see how you would accomplish something similar with a MicMate, or if it's even necessary. 

My plan was to try the EMM-6 and MicMate to set up my new system, but couldn't find any info on calibration of the MicMate.

Jay


----------



## ChrisB

I don't think you need to "calibrate" the USB Mic Mate via the sound card output to input method, nor do I know if you can. It may not be 100% accurate, but it is more accurate than the NOTHING that all my local custom shops have.


----------



## eng92

Lars Ulriched said:


> Since im unable to get a hand on mic mate can anyone here tell me if i can use this instead Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround 5.1?


That sound card does not provide the 48V (phantom power) that the mic needs to work.


----------



## Lars Ulriched

eng92 said:


> That sound card does not provide the 48V (phantom power) that the mic needs to work.


so it mean it cannot be use? Thanks...it will save my money from buying it....


----------



## eng92

Lars Ulriched said:


> so it mean it cannot be use? Thanks...it will save my money from buying it....


You can use the SB X-Fi but you would also need a mic pre-amp or a phantom power source to power the mic.

Is this Centrance unit available in your area?

CEntrance -> MicPort Pro


----------



## JayinMI

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I don't think you need to "calibrate" the USB Mic Mate via the sound card output to input method, nor do I know if you can. It may not be 100% accurate, but it is more accurate than the NOTHING that all my local custom shops have.


One of our other stores has a seldom used AudioControl 3055, but I've been with the company on and off for the past 6 years, and it was older then, so I have no idea how "in-spec" the mic is. I imagine that spending money to have a setup on my laptop would be slightly more expensive than paying to get the 3055 calibrated....and I could potentially run the RTA software and the BitOne software at the same time on my laptop. 

Jay


----------



## tulse

I saw the Parts Express Dayton EMM-6 posted earlier that comes with a calibration file. Anyone using that mic, and is the calibration file that comes with it compatible with TrueRTA?


----------



## B_Rich

So, what kind of music or tone sweep would one need to play to get an accurate measurement of their system?

And we'll be placing the mic in the same location as the driver's head, no?

TIA.


----------



## quality_sound

Pink noise and placing it where your head is will be fine.


----------



## B_Rich

Thank you sir, I appreciate the response.


----------



## Austin

I just wanted to post up a pic of a measurement i did to test out my mic with the mobile pre. don't laugh, its all i had around and i was bored. I tested a pair of sony earbuds  just by holding it right at the tip of the mic it worked perfectly, fairly nice response too haha. check it out:











The below 100 hz response was just room noise/artifacts but above that the headphones bumped the response up some so that is pretty accurate. This is 1/6 octave smoothing i think, or 1/3 i cant remember. Im excited to get my EQ up and running so i can do some real tuning


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## ErinH

you can take screenshots of your results by pressing control + alt + print screen together on your keyboard.

then paste the image into MS Paint and save the results as a jpeg or gif (saving as a bitmap will make the file size huge).


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## mosca

it's the 3rd time I try to post this very same message, let's hope this time passes.

I've purchased an individually calibrated EMC8000 from Cross Spectrum. and now I'm deciding on which preamp to buy, I googled a bit and found this, which might be of interest for this thread: USB Audio review: Blue Icicle, Centrance MicPort Pro, Shure X2U, MXL Mic Mate | recording hacks

would I find any differences between one of those or something like the Edirol UA 25? beyond inputs/outputs I'm interested in terms of quality and self calibration.


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## mosca

ˆˆˆˆ I'm surprised this time my reply passed. the two previous ones went into moderation and never did it to the thread. maybe I've missed somewhere that I need a minimum of N posts to be able to comment in the tutorials subforum...

anyways, I hope the recording hacks article helps somebody.


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## ErinH

you can calibrate the soundcard yourself. once you do this, you're set. you already own a calibrated mic, which is 95% of the battle.


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## mosca

bikinpunk said:


> you can calibrate the soundcard yourself. once you do this, you're set. you already own a calibrated mic, which is 95% of the battle.


that's nice 

of course I got the "self calibration" term bad, I mean just "calibration". I said it mostly because of this:



> I don't think you need to "calibrate" the USB Mic Mate via the sound card output to input method, nor do I know if you can. It may not be 100% accurate, but it is more accurate than the NOTHING that all my local custom shops have.


do you think spending more on the UA 25 would make any difference — accuracy wise — versus the simpler ones in the article I linked (= MicMate like)? I mean, if an UA 25 can / should be calibrated, would it yield greater accuracy than a MicMate (et al.)?


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## mosca

here's something I haven't seen specified in the thread: do I have to do the metering with my body inside the car? I mean, if my audio system will be reproducing sound only with me sitting in the car, shouldn't the sampling be done as close as that as possible? kind of what you do with the MS-8 — though I'd say the same should be done for when there are two (three, four) people sitting in it.

or wouldn't the available physical space affect the readings very much?


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## ErinH

really briefly, as I'm out the door as I type this...

1) The mic mate measures VERY close to the m-audio mobilepre setup that I have which has been calibrated, in addition to using a calibrated mic. I don't know if the mic mates vary unit to unit much, but overall I think it's a safe purchase. 
2) I did a quick search on the roland ua-25 and couldn't find anyone with it in stock, so couldn't get a ballpark price. I will say that I snagged my mobilepre off e-bay for $85 shipped a couple years ago. I think it's a good purchase. It has phantom power and a lot of input/outputs to use for RTA stuff. If the roland is close in price to that, has phantom power and xlr inputs, and also a good output so that you can send audio signal from your RTA software to your car's stereo via a AUX input, then go for it. Having the ability to play sweeps or pink noise through an AUX is a great luxury. MUCH better and easier than playing pink noise CDs and having to play/pause the track(s) repeatedly. 
3) Measuring with your body in the car. It's good exercise, but I rarely do it. I use the RTA to get me in the ballpark and everything else is done by ear.
Also really depends on the aiming of your driver's, too.


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## B_Rich

So, measure with your body in the car, and play pink noise at a moderate volume level (just so the mic has enough to pick it up) and you're good? I mean, the volume doesn't have to be at a certain number like setting your gains would be at, right?

Is pink noise "full range"? (<-dumb question?)

I appreciate all the help guys, I plan on doing this once school is over and summer hits.


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## mosca

B_Rich said:


> Is pink noise "full range"? (<-dumb question?)


it seems that mostly yes:










Pink noise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## mosca

bikinpunk said:


> 1) The mic mate measures VERY close to the m-audio mobilepre setup that I have which has been calibrated, in addition to using a calibrated mic. I don't know if the mic mates vary unit to unit much, but overall I think it's a safe purchase.


sounds great for the price 



bikinpunk said:


> 2) I did a quick search on the roland ua-25 and couldn't find anyone with it in stock, so couldn't get a ballpark price. I will say that I snagged my mobilepre off e-bay for $85 shipped a couple years ago. I think it's a good purchase. It has phantom power and a lot of input/outputs to use for RTA stuff. If the roland is close in price to that, has phantom power and xlr inputs, and also a good output so that you can send audio signal from your RTA software to your car's stereo via a AUX input, then go for it. Having the ability to play sweeps or pink noise through an AUX is a great luxury. MUCH better and easier than playing pink noise CDs and having to play/pause the track(s) repeatedly.


the Roland would cost me 3 times what you paid for your Mobile Pre in dollars (~190 euros). I will check out how much a Mobile Pre costs here in Europe.



bikinpunk said:


> 3) Measuring with your body in the car. It's good exercise, but I rarely do it. I use the RTA to get me in the ballpark and everything else is done by ear.
> Also really depends on the aiming of your driver's, too.


okay, I will try it both ways to see what results I get.


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## ErinH

B_Rich said:


> So, measure with your body in the car, and play pink noise at a moderate volume level (just so the mic has enough to pick it up) and you're good? I mean, the volume doesn't have to be at a certain number like setting your gains would be at, right?
> 
> Is pink noise "full range"? (<-dumb question?)
> 
> I appreciate all the help guys, I plan on doing this once school is over and summer hits.


Pink noise is full range, yes. Equal energy in all octaves. 

You can measure with your body in the car, or not. honestly, I've never really noticed a huge difference either way, but I also don't have legs that block a driver (ie: door mounted mids). 

As far as the question about volume, my opinion is that you should first play some music at an average volume, or slightly above this volume. Keep in mind the differences in volume when driving or when sitting still (if you plan to compete). Measure your system AT THIS VOLUME. 

I also highly, highly, HIGHLY suggest looking at the equal loudness curve as a go by reference to what to tune to. Your hearing isn't linear... you are more sensitive to certain frequencies (4khz specifically) and less to others (low/high end). If you tailor your system's response to follow this curve _at the specified volume at which you listen to your music_ then I promise you'll get much better results than if you set your system to measure flat. 

Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia











If you really pay attention to the above curve, you might just find that you allow yourself to cross your tweeters over a bit higher and your mid a bit lower than you might typically do, in order to get the dip in response from 2khz-6khz where your ears are most sensitive.


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## mosca

thanks for the pointer to the Equal-loudness contour, *bikinpunk*. I thought I had to go to go for a flat(ter) response.


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## Shelly_d

:lurk:


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## sqshoestring

I just got a laptop and was reading this thread....is there a consensus on the best way to go here for diy use?


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## ErinH

what best way to go? 

this thread seems like a consensus to me.


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## mental

hi first time poster here,

i know it's said somewhere in this thread that you don't need to calibrate micmate, 
but even without the mic attached trueRTA still shows considerable amount of noise in the lower frequencies as much as +20db 
in a quiet room with noise floor of 40ish db (measured with C weighted measurement with my spl meter).
btw i already did the loop/stereomix calibration.
for reference i'm using ecm8000 with the micmate on win7(hp 311 netbook).

is there anyway to fix this?
any input is appreciated
dave


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## colek42

Thanks for this thread, I was wondering how I was going to set my 3Sixty.2. This is simply perfect! I Think I might even be able to pass pink noise and tones through bluetooth audio to my HU. I'll post on my install thread when I get to it, probably 3-4 wks away.


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## colek42

..just a thought, but if you pass your audio via BT you should be able to match your source and what your mic is hearing perfectly. Just play it in something with a nice spectrum analyzer, I think winamp has some good plugins - though there are prob better solutions. Will have to play around and see what happens, but that is the fun part.


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## trojan fan

colek42 said:


> Thanks for this thread, I was wondering how I was going to set my 3Sixty.2. This is simply perfect! I Think I might even be able to pass pink noise and tones through bluetooth audio to my HU. I'll post on my install thread when I get to it, probably 3-4 wks away.


Use your ears, the true test is how it sounds to you. not a machine...


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## 12v Electronics

colek42 said:


> ..just a thought, but if you pass your audio via BT you should be able to match your source and what your mic is hearing perfectly. Just play it in something with a nice spectrum analyzer, I think winamp has some good plugins - though there are prob better solutions. Will have to play around and see what happens, but that is the fun part.


If you like, you can call me and I will hold my phone up to a calibrated signal generator so you can pass the signal to your system via Bluetooth and then use the $100 RTA to tune the system.


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## colek42

Read up a bit on A2DP and there is some compression involved. Don't know what extent, but any compression is probably not good with RTA


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## sqoverspl

12v Electronics said:


> If you like, you can call me and I will hold my phone up to a calibrated signal generator so you can pass the signal to your system via Bluetooth and then use the $100 RTA to tune the system.


Wouldnt your phone's mic ruin this? Phone mics are way worse then any decent measurement mic

edit: I hate the internet and the lack of tone of voice


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## timmay77

Mic mate, EMC8000, and true RTA purchased (1/3 octave).

Can anyone give me a play by play to get everything up and running to RTA my car?

I guess I need to know if I have to calibrate anything, and if so, how. All I have is what I have listed.....


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## sakazekillaz

chad said:


> One can pick up a M-Audio USB-Pre fro around 40-50 bucks used that gives you 2 channels of balanced IO, 2 mic pre's, and phantom power. BUT you have to shop around and possibly wait.


I looked up the M-Audio and found one for $135 OBO. Package includes M-Audio MobilePre MkI, 2 mics, 2 xlr cables & usb cable. Think this is a good deal? TIA


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## adrasys

I have the mic that is included with the Alpine IMPRINT sound tuning kit. Would it be possible to just plug that into my macbook and run the software? do i really need the Mic mate?
EDIT
- nevermind i realize why the mic mate was needed


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## uiquint

Being a noob, I'm searching all over trying to find the answers to some questions to get me up and running understanding all this but am having trouble comprehending it all. 

I purchased a calibrated EMC8000 and MicMate. The CD provided from the EMC has several files...
1. Mic Report
2. 3 narrow band response files: 0 degree, 45 degree and 90 degree
3. 3 1/3 octave band response files: 0 degree, 45 degree and 90 degree

My question is what do I do with these? Do I need to import them into the TrueRTA software? If so, which file and how? 

Also, how do I calibrate the PC? I've read the user manual and it makes me feel stupid because I still can't figure it out! The sound system calibration link under Audio I/O isn't a selectable option. Its there, just does not let me click on it. Do I need to use a voltmeter with the micmate?

I assume after the two aforementioned steps I should be up and running. Thanks in advance.


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## uiquint

I contacted John today. He instructed me to upload the 0 degree 1/3 octave calibration file and to change it from a .frd to a .txt file for the program to recognize it. 

He said with the micmate there is no need to calibrate the sound card. Now to figure out how the rest of it works.


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## LSCman

Note: You pay for what you get. So if that microphone hasn't been checked properly after shipping- you're RTA readout may be lying to you.


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## Sirrus

Here's a suggestion: If you are using your computer to output the sweeps, there will be some need for calibration. It really depends on how accurate you want to get, but the sound card will not be outputing a perfectly flat signal via the 3.5mm jack. It will be pretty close to flat, but not perfect. Another option is to use an audio CD with sweeps on it and use the Max Hold function in TrueRTA. That way your audio source is the same as the one you will be using to play your music. I've been using this one for a few years, though a 20 Hz to 20 kHz sweep track would be nice to have:

Amazon.com: Audio Toolbox: Bass Mekanik: Music


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## 96jimmyslt

Several questions:

1. What is the purpose of this?

2. would ipod touch mic + JL audio tools or another real time analyzer work?

3. Would a $2 clipon mic from deal extreme work? It works for skype and google voice just fine.


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## getonerd

Those mic are made for talking
you can tune it with those mics but I might be off 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## deejaytek

I dont know if I'd have the patience for this. lol


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## less

I've been in tuning for the past few days... went flat with some bass boost as many suggest and it didn't do. I honestly figured I had hearing loss that made a major difference between what I liked and how music was "meant to sound from the studio." It's nice to know that because I like a bump in FR up top, that doesn't mean my hearing is shot!

Finally I got so PO'd that I went in and measured my home system which seems to always sound great to me. Best idea I ever had lol... it turns out to measure very much the same shape as this curve (and it uses Audessy eq's so that isn't surprising). After modifying my car eq to match this closely, I'm finally fairly close to having the sound I've been looking for for years!! Sadly, the my mid's enclosure causes a drop at their lower end and a peak at their higher - which is about opposite of what's preferred. It looks like I'm going to go back and modify my fiberglass kick enclosures again though, and I'm fairly sure that'll allow me to get this response without all the eq work.

Thanks Bikin... wish I'd have read this and paid more attention earlier. There is just so much to read here and only so much time available, its hard to do all the things you'd like to do and still have time to build and actually listen too!

This chart will be a staple in my EQ tuning for the future - since I can use it to help with my dynamic EQ settings in the B1 - plus I can also create presets reflecting various volume settings with appropriate compensation as well (since Dyn EQ seems to only impact lower frequencies).

Jim aka Less



bikinpunk said:


> Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you really pay attention to the above curve, you might just find that you allow yourself to cross your tweeters over a bit higher and your mid a bit lower than you might typically do, in order to get the dip in response from 2khz-6khz where your ears are most sensitive.


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## innovativems

this is an interesting thread


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## MUGWUMP

I just got my ECM8000. I'm pretty excited about this. I'm such a geek. 

Now I just need a laptop because I don't plan on dragging my desktop down to the garage anytime soon. Wish I didn't sell the Dell XPS 17mwhatever/portable furnace my dad gave me. It was dual core with twin graphics cards. Never used it so I sold to a friend for $400. 

Damn it. I had planned on getting something inexpensive to maybe play Minecraft at work (I work nights and sometimes it's slooooooow), but now with Diablo 3 coming out...


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## Tominizer

Very good thead. Was hoping to eventually see someone do a step by step write-up, especially with regards to calibration. That the only part messing me up right now. Thanks to all those who have submitted on this topic.


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## Thumper26

Just throwing this out there, but PartsExpress has a comparable mic to the Behringer. They had it on sale for $40 a while back, and I picked one up then. It looks identical to the Behringer, and you can go to Dayton's website, enter the unique serial number on your mic, and download the calibration file for your specific microphone. It's already a txt file, and TrueRTA has no problems accepting it.

Mic:
Dayton Audio EMM-6 Electret Measurement Microphone Allows For Accurate Acoustic Measurements At A Fraction Of The Price 390-801

Site to retrieve the calibration file:
Dayton Audio EMM-6 Electret Measurement Microphone - Test & Measurement


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## avanti1960

at first i thought this thread was going to be about how to RTA with 100 computer OS ".dll" files- make your RTA with 100 dlls. but seriously, as a reference for those who may have wandered here in search of a good RTA instructional thread please keep hunting on DIYMA because this one is like RTA 101, a nice start.


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## Sonus

Would this Dayton USB mic work directly into the PC?

Dayton Audio UMM-6 USB Measurement Microphone


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## mulagain

Sonus said:


> Would this Dayton USB mic work directly into the PC?
> 
> Dayton Audio UMM-6 USB Measurement Microphone


Digging up an old thread but I'm about to pull the trigger on a similar setup and saw your link. I 'think' this mic would work well since it removes the need for phantom power (MicMate) and also removes the need to calibrate against the PCs soundcard. 

Another option I found browsing Hometheatershack is the MiniDSP UMIK-I. For $75 bucks it includes a unique cal file (via SN# entry like the Dayton), 133db limit and measures down to 5hz. Also includes a 1.5m cord and tripod. 

Either way, seems you can get a true plug-and-play uniquely calibrated measurement setup for under $100 these days. Anyone have experience with the MiniDSP?


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## ariko81

^^Curious about this as well.


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## sqshoestring

Lol I'm still working on this. Just got a second hand laptop and getting a new drive for it, should work fine for this. Someone else here took over the other laptop.


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## mulagain

I ended up with the Spectrum Labs calibrated UMM-6. Honestly, it's a great deal considering it's like 5 bucks more than the UMM-6 on Parts Express!

There's something you gotta keep in mind with these USB mics though. _You cannot time align_ with them. Here's a thread I started to answer some questions on REW. See my 3rd or 4th post. I ended up getting an SPL meter (need one to calibrate REW/TrueRTA anyway) and use that for TA measurements.

I tore my hair out trying to figure out TA with a USB mic. Hopefully this saves a few people thinking of the USB mics some agony.

All-in-all now, it works pretty great. The UMM-6 has a high noise floor though. But so do most budget USB mics.

-Mul


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## Projektmkvii

should be ordering my parts this week!


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## djfourmoney

This thread was bumped and I found it via the new post search link.

People talk of noise floor with these affordable mics, is that the mic's signal to noise ratio or the fact your using the chipset audio in your laptop? Has anybody tried good external USB interface like Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 or even less expensive Solo?

I don't know if I need to invest in these items like I previous though for a online project I am working on, but wanted to give my input.


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## pamelamemek

doitor said:


> Hi guys
> Just got my RTA going.
> $100 for all the pieces new.
> Want to know how?
> Paypal me $100 and I'll let you know.
> j/k
> 
> Behringer ECM8000 $49.95 at Amazon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MXL Usb Mic Mate payed $49 at my local Guitar Center. Cheapest I've seen online $79.99
> This thing has phantom power and you plug it directly to the mic and then to a USB port on your computer. It detects it automaticly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TrueRTA free. (True Audio: Audio Spectrum Analyzer and Loudspeaker Design Software) the 1 octave is free and there are several versions 1/3 octave ($39.95), 1/6 octave ($69.95) and 1/24 octave ($99.95).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know there are several programs to do it.
> That's not my car's graph by the way, just measuring my office noise.
> I think I need to eq my office.
> Well that's it, $100 dollar totally portable, RTA and SPL meter.
> 
> Jorge.


 I am used to people using larger mic pre-amps and such.







:laugh:


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## cesarius

Interesting RTA Thread.


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## poormansporsche

Picked up a Behringer mic looking forward to this. Anyone have a good Mac OS client they've used?

cheers

poorman


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