# Kick Panels Bobwires' style



## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

More Kicks, if anybody is in the mood.

Here's a Focus I did a couple months ago.










spray release agent is wicked










prep for foam



















































the arsenal for this job.


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## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

wrapped


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## JP Fabrication (Feb 20, 2008)

Nice Nelson.

Put up one of my favorites of yours- Hybrib Audio/MB Quarts kicks


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## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

crnacnac said:


> Nice Nelson.
> 
> Put up one of my favorites of yours- Hybrib Audio/MB Quarts kicks


thanks. 

I posted them up

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/121176-silverado-kicks-door-panels-hybrid-mb-quart.html


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## robert_wrath (Apr 24, 2011)

Wow, appreciate the stage by stage pics provided. Thanx!


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## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

no sweat.


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

nice detailed pics. thanks


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## GLN305 (Nov 2, 2007)

Wonderful work. I bet that hacksaw blade in that airsaw will make quick work of a Thanksgiving turkey!


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## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

yeah! just one more reason to have a compressor in the house.


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## ThreeMan (May 11, 2009)

Awesome work. You have some great projects all over DIY. 

I like the foam as an alternative to wrapping and glassing. I might have to try it.


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## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

ThreeMan said:


> Awesome work. You have some great projects all over DIY.
> 
> I like the foam as an alternative to wrapping and glassing. I might have to try it.


Thanks

I hate 'volcano' boxes..... I'm pro-foam.


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## TokoSpeaker (Nov 12, 2010)

Sir, please allow me to give a question for you :
- Is it possible to get a good sound stage with kick panel?

I love the way you built the kickpanel.

But my problem, my car on right hand drive.
So the gas pedal on the right side, and the space is not big enough.
But I will try..

Thank you.


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## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

TokoSpeaker said:


> Sir, please allow me to give a question for you :
> - Is it possible to get a good sound stage with kick panel?
> 
> I love the way you built the kickpanel.
> ...


Well, the stage will never be too high 

I'm really not a serious SQ guy - I like the idea, but I just mess around. No training, no SQ cars in my area, nothing...... I'm building my rigs up for SQ in hopes to learn a lot more by trial and error. I just talk to the pros as I go to make sure I don't do anything dumb.

I have heard some nice soundstages from the kicks; no doubt it is definitely possible. Main thing is equidistant path length, and they're much more solid than in a door panel. 

It is possible to put them in a RHD, but even more of a challenge.


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## TokoSpeaker (Nov 12, 2010)

Wow, very fast response.
I really appreciate it.

I would like to thank you for your fast response.
I will try to put Audio Technology 5" drivers on my kickpanel.

To combine with my Audio Technology 8" drivers on doorpanel, HLCD Stevens Audio and RAAL tweeters.

You have built your kickpanel like a pro, Sir.
Congratulation!




bobwires said:


> Well, the stage will never be too high
> 
> I'm really not a serious SQ guy - I like the idea, but I just mess around. No training, no SQ cars in my area, nothing...... I'm building my rigs up for SQ in hopes to learn a lot more by trial and error. I just talk to the pros as I go to make sure I don't do anything dumb.
> 
> ...


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## vapor77 (Mar 12, 2011)

You should make some video tutorials on your methods.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

I second that ^^^^


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## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

vapor77 said:


> You should make some video tutorials on your methods.


Funny you should mention that.....

I made one serious one a couple years ago, and wasn't happy with it - it was my old temporary location, didn't have a good camera, lacked editing skill, the list goes on. 

The remodel (again) is underway, and when I'm done videos are on the top of my list. a few months and I'll have something.


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## kenikh (Jan 17, 2011)

Wow. Silk purse out of a sow's ear. That's a lot of pretty out of ugly. Foam requires a diligent and skilled handler. Kudos!


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## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

Thanks. I love foam.


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## sqgodz (Feb 3, 2011)

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I am very interested in you foam method. I want to get a more natural curve that works with my interior and this is the ticket. Can you tell me what kind of foam that is and where I could find some? Also, in my application, I would have to remove it. Is there a way to dissolve the foam so that it leaves a void behind it?


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## south east customz (Jan 17, 2011)

use floral foam and then hit it with acetone to remove.
That foam is a two part foam usually used in boat hulls


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## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

I have tried carving out foam as well as melting it, and honestly I feel that there is never a reason to go that route. 

What you want is a skin of glass on the front, not a pile of foam to glass to, that has to be removed. So all you have to do is foam it up, then tape it off. That way your skin pops off.

This foam is 2-part urethane foam, in a 4lb density. Floral foam is 1.6lb density, and is crazy soft. I use it occasionally, but much prefer this stuff for most applications. You can get it at any boat yard, or order it up from US composites - they are closer to you than Fiberlay that I use.


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## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

Oh, and this foam is never used in boat hulls. Only for making bucks/prototypes for various parts of the boat. Never used in the hull.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

bobwires said:


> I have tried carving out foam as well as melting it, and honestly I feel that there is never a reason to go that route.
> 
> What you want is a skin of glass on the front, not a pile of foam to glass to, that has to be removed. So all you have to do is foam it up, then tape it off. That way your skin pops off.
> 
> This foam is 2-part urethane foam, in a 4lb density. Floral foam is 1.6lb density, and is crazy soft. I use it occasionally, but much prefer this stuff for most applications. You can get it at any boat yard, or order it up from US composites - they are closer to you than Fiberlay that I use.


Would you mine elaborating on that process please? I'd like to try using foam in my current kick panel build. I've already fiberglassed a shell of the kickpanel location (floor) and have mounting rings attached like the skeleton for it. Do I simply use cardboard/paper like youve done to "block" foam from getting iside the airspace portion for the drivers, then use the same to block it from getting too far beyond the boundaries of where I want the outside of the ecnlosure to be, then apply foam? Is the foam expanding after mixing? What is the consistency and how heavy?
After it's dried, I assume you go in and sand it down then to the shape you want? And then what, lay some FG resin in on top of that for the strength? How many layers? 
Does the resin react with the foam causing it to melt or deform?

Thanks for taking the time to respond. You're work is very nice. I'd like to try this different approach/process as I think it can save time/effort and give a really nice result.


-Steve


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## Dodslobber (Jan 3, 2013)

Niemeyer wanted me to hit you up. I'm from Bozeman and started my install career at Sound Pro in 1990. If I ever make it down your way I would like to connect with you.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Also- What about that Great Stuff expanding foam in a can? Can that be used as well or will that melt when contacted with resin?


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

captainobvious said:


> Also- What about that Great Stuff expanding foam in a can? Can that be used as well or will that melt when contacted with resin?


it's not a rapid melt, but it does... and it also gets in your brush and kinda messes with your layup... makes the brush super sticky.

the stuff he is talking about is different. i'd go the route of floral foam (actually will be  )


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## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

captainobvious said:


> Would you mine elaborating on that process please? I'd like to try using foam in my current kick panel build. I've already fiberglassed a shell of the kickpanel location (floor) and have mounting rings attached like the skeleton for it. Do I simply use cardboard/paper like youve done to "block" foam from getting iside the airspace portion for the drivers, then use the same to block it from getting too far beyond the boundaries of where I want the outside of the ecnlosure to be, then apply foam? Is the foam expanding after mixing? What is the consistency and how heavy?
> After it's dried, I assume you go in and sand it down then to the shape you want? And then what, lay some FG resin in on top of that for the strength? How many layers?
> Does the resin react with the foam causing it to melt or deform?
> 
> ...


It is very rare I would use any foam like that actually in the car. A colleague recently posted up a project where he foamed up in an awkward spot in a garbage back to make a buck for a box. Worked our really slick.

Here is the basic concept - you don’t want to waste any space in the vehicle or the enclosure with foam, fleece, wood, or anything else. Whatever you put in needs to have a purpose. Old school guys make their ghetto volcanos and leave the MDF sticks and an extra 1/4” of resined fleece in there because it’s easy, but it’s not an efficient use of space, and more often than not requires a buttload of body work to make it look good. That means more wasted space with bondo.

On these kickpanels I wasted some space with the foam because there was a cavity behind the speakers to have a proper enclosure up into the pillar. I could have avoided that altogether with a couple extra steps. 

Here is the ideal - make a mold. Use whatever the heck you want to get the shape, get it up to paint, then make a plaster mold. It’s cheap and easy. Absolutely ZERO wasted space when your finished product is 100% glass.

Next best thing is to tape off the area where the foam will come in contact, foam where you need it (with a dam) then shape it down to perfection. Rather than glass to the foam, tape it off so you have a very crude ‘mold’ to get a ‘skin’ of glass instead of having it all connected. This is a common thing in the boatbuilding industry for quickie one-off pieces. You an fill and prime the ‘skin’ before you even pop it so it has as much time as possible to cure in shape. When you pop it you can remove the foam and glue the 2 halves together with resin mixed with thixtropic agents and glass fibers.

If you’re serious about doing this stuff right, go to Mobile Solutions for a class. I have only touched the surface on what is possible, and will not give away any of the ‘trade secrets’ he teaches, only things I know from outside the 12v industry. 




captainobvious said:


> Also- What about that Great Stuff expanding foam in a can? Can that be used as well or will that melt when contacted with resin?





mattyjman said:


> it's not a rapid melt, but it does... and it also gets in your brush and kinda messes with your layup... makes the brush super sticky.
> 
> the stuff he is talking about is different. i'd go the route of floral foam (actually will be  )


I don't know what they heck kind of method or brand of foam you are using, but great stuff is polyurethane and will not melt at all with resin contact. That's not the problem. 

Here's the issue with any foam in consideration. All canned foams are not equal, but in general they will be inconsistent density. If you're filling a crack in a wall it doesn't matter, but to use for shaping it's a big deal. Some are more dense than others, and that can be a blessing and a curse. Floral foam is open-cell, so it will soak in a little more, and extremely low density - 1.9, if I remember right. It will sculpt really easily, but you have to be careful you don’t gouge it since it’s so soft.

Other foams that do melt are also perfectly usable in certain circumstances. You can use EPS/XPS (styrofoam) and get away with it if you use epoxy resin or sufficiently tape it off. The problem then is these foams don’t shape worth a crap.

The stuff I use 95% of the time is a 4lb density ‘pour foam’ from Fiberlay. 2 part polyurethane. You have to make a ‘dam’ out of tape or tagboard to control where it goes.


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## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

You can get sheet polyurethane foam as well, even really thick stuff. It would be great to work with in certain applications, but it ain't cheap.....

Occasionally you will find it at a home supply store in with the other insulating foam in 2" thick sheets.


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## bardo (Oct 12, 2011)

bobwires--what do you cut that foam with? electric knife/heat knife? I've found it never really likes to cooperate with a box cutter or other exacto-esque cutting tool.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

bobwires said:


> It is very rare I would use any foam like that actually in the car. A colleague recently posted up a project where he foamed up in an awkward spot in a garbage back to make a buck for a box. Worked our really slick.
> 
> Here is the basic concept - you don’t want to waste any space in the vehicle or the enclosure with foam, fleece, wood, or anything else. Whatever you put in needs to have a purpose. Old school guys make their ghetto volcanos and leave the MDF sticks and an extra 1/4” of resined fleece in there because it’s easy, but it’s not an efficient use of space, and more often than not requires a buttload of body work to make it look good. That means more wasted space with bondo.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for your detailed response. Does the pour foam expand or retain its size/shape once mixed and poured? And am I understanding you correctly then that you pour your foam, glass a skin and then remove the foam from the inside of the enclosure after the skin of fiberglass resin to avoid taking up that internal space?

I'll have to check out that pour foam and pricing. Looks like something that would be fun to experiment with. Im a simple hobbyist and probably wouldnt have the time for a full class at Mobile Solutions (as fun as that might actually be for me), so I thank you for sharing some insight into the methods used.

-Steve


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## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

bardo said:


> bobwires--what do you cut that foam with? electric knife/heat knife? I've found it never really likes to cooperate with a box cutter or other exacto-esque cutting tool.


No, that would suck. A turkey cutting electric knife is a popular choice for a lot of guys, a sheetrock knife is also common. A heat knife is worthless for this type of foam. 

I prefer an air saw with a full length hacksaw blade. It will blast through the excess super fast. Then take a rasp to get it close, then 36g sand paper to get the final shape.



captainobvious said:


> Thank you for your detailed response. Does the pour foam expand or retain its size/shape once mixed and poured? And am I understanding you correctly then that you pour your foam, glass a skin and then remove the foam from the inside of the enclosure after the skin of fiberglass resin to avoid taking up that internal space?
> 
> I'll have to check out that pour foam and pricing. Looks like something that would be fun to experiment with. Im a simple hobbyist and probably wouldnt have the time for a full class at Mobile Solutions (as fun as that might actually be for me), so I thank you for sharing some insight into the methods used.
> 
> -Steve


It expands to 30x it's original size. A 2 quart kit (1 quart of each, parts A and B) will probably last you years.

Yes, you tape everything off so the foam is removed from the finished product.


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## bardo (Oct 12, 2011)

I've used a drywall knife on oc703 (rigid fiberglass) and that works pretty well--didn't think about using it on the foam... might have to give that a shot.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

bobwires said:


> It expands to 30x it's original size. A 2 quart kit (1 quart of each, parts A and B) will probably last you years.


Dayum! That puts the canned stuff to shame. I thought the cost seemed prohibitive, but if it lasts that long...


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## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

WAAAAAY cheaper than 'great stuff'


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

bobwires said:


> WAAAAAY cheaper than 'great stuff'


Indeed! I just checked over at US Composites and it's actually very reasonably priced. 
Urethane Foam , Expanding Marine Polyurethane Foam

Looks like they have 2lb foam all the way up to 16lb. 16lb's density per square foot is sick. I know as you go up in density, you decrease the expansion properties so the foam doesn't go as far. They describe 16lb as dense and strong enough for architectural castings, support applications and hard enough that you'd need a hammer to dent it.

For the cheap price, I think I'll order some up with my vinyl ester resin to play around with.


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## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

captainobvious said:


> Indeed! I just checked over at US Composites and it's actually very reasonably priced.
> Urethane Foam , Expanding Marine Polyurethane Foam
> 
> Looks like they have 2lb foam all the way up to 16lb. 16lb's density per square foot is sick. I know as you go up in density, you decrease the expansion properties so the foam doesn't go as far. They describe 16lb as dense and strong enough for architectural castings, support applications and hard enough that you'd need a hammer to dent it.
> ...


That's the east coast supplier I'd recommend in general, but honestly I'd look for somewhere a little closer to home. Forums always have a handful of sites that are always recommended at the expense of local business. Support your local economy. The other side of it is you can find a knowledgeable person at your local boatyard or fiberglass supplier. Get the information you need about the specific products for a particular project.

16lb is ludicrous for this stuff. Like sanding rocks. I believe Fiberfoam, from Fiberlay, is 2.9lb.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

bobwires said:


> That's the east coast supplier I'd recommend in general, but honestly I'd look for somewhere a little closer to home. Forums always have a handful of sites that are always recommended at the expense of local business. Support your local economy. The other side of it is you can find a knowledgeable person at your local boatyard or fiberglass supplier. Get the information you need about the specific products for a particular project.
> 
> 16lb is ludicrous for this stuff. Like sanding rocks. I believe Fiberfoam, from Fiberlay, is 2.9lb.


If I were in New Jersey and near the water, I'd try my local marina to see what might be out there for supplies. Being 30 miles west of Philadelphia, there's not much in the way of local supply though. I could drive an hour to an hour and a half, but then that wouldnt be supporting local either, so I'll just use a solid and proven supplier. My other concern would be with how much product they move. These resins and hardeners have a semi-short shelf life so I like that Im ordering from a company who is pumping this stuff out and sending me fresh product.

Oh also, I was more commenting on the badassery of 16lb per sq ft expanding foam. That's just insane.
I actually ordered the 4lb stuff


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Subd


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

I really wish you posted a picture of the step in between picture 4 and 5. I'm having a hard time imagining how you prepped the molds before pouring foam. I see you tapped some cardboard in certain places to form some rough contours. But it also seems that you chose to let the foam over flow in other places. What decisions led to the prep work done?

I also wish I could see a picture of the pods after all the tape and cardboard was removed, but before the foam was shaped.


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## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

Fricasseekid said:


> I really wish you posted a picture of the step in between picture 4 and 5. I'm having a hard time imagining how you prepped the molds before pouring foam. I see you tapped some cardboard in certain places to form some rough contours. But it also seems that you chose to let the foam over flow in other places. What decisions led to the prep work done?
> 
> I also wish I could see a picture of the pods after all the tape and cardboard was removed, but before the foam was shaped.


Between pics 4 and 5 I just taped off the speaker baffle and built up a dam around the perimeter to control the over flow. I have tape going from the tagboard dam to the baffle to hold the walls in. Once the foam starts going, look out! It's actually pretty strong and will push things out of the way. For that reason you don't want to completely cover the area with tape, it will just push it out of the way and probably mess up the dam. You can only control so much of where it flows. It's important you don't screw with it while it's growing; it will just make the density inconsistent.

After the dam is removed you are left with a giant mess. I chopped off all the excess and lumps with the airsaw before I took the next picture. Nothing to see.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

bobwires said:


> Between pics 4 and 5 I just taped off the speaker baffle and built up a dam around the perimeter to control the over flow. I have tape going from the tagboard dam to the baffle to hold the walls in. Once the foam starts going, look out! It's actually pretty strong and will push things out of the way. For that reason you don't want to completely cover the area with tape, it will just push it out of the way and probably mess up the dam. You can only control so much of where it flows. It's important you don't screw with it while it's growing; it will just make the density inconsistent.
> 
> After the dam is removed you are left with a giant mess. I chopped off all the excess and lumps with the airsaw before I took the next picture. Nothing to see.


Ok, so the outer damn provided no specific counter or molds? It simply was there to golds the foam in place so you could work it later.


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## bobwires (May 13, 2008)

Fricasseekid said:


> Ok, so the outer damn provided no specific counter or molds? It simply was there to golds the foam in place so you could work it later.


exactly


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