# Lithium build for daily driver



## Christman2021 (Aug 4, 2021)

*New to the lithium game I'm old school AGM. I've Been doing research about them trying to figure out what's a good cell or Prismatic Cell I know of the yinlong,headway lishen,I'm not worried about trying other new stuff on the market, Im needing assistance and knowledge on picking the correct cells what all is needing to buy. 
I got all the material to make buss bars and plates but not sure on how to charge them wire them how many I need I'll post my info about my vehicle and system..
2011 GMC Yukon SLT 320 HP mechman alt Taramp MD8k1ohm 2 wolfram Audio PT-18 all 2/0 weld wire any help would be much appreciated thank you .

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## Slow Cruiser (Aug 21, 2016)

I say look up some Overlanding and OffRoad vids and or forums on the battery setups. That might be your best way to get the info you need


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

i am not an expert..... i am learning as well.... but i have seen a lot of the vehicles that use lithium batteries have special standalone chargers that that manage the charging of the lithium batteries.

also i have come across this videos in the past, just things to think about.
"How to not blow up your Alternator when charging Lithium"


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## Christman2021 (Aug 4, 2021)

Slow Cruiser said:


> I say look up some Overlanding and OffRoad vids and or forums on the battery setups. That might be your best way to get the info you need


I've done post in SMD audio AND SOUND SALAUTION AUDIO a month ago and never got a reply I noticed this page has more activity so I'm gonna try this 🤞


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

yeah totally, i know SPL guys run lithium batteries. but i am not really sure how they charge/maintain the batteries.
i think a lot of those guys have multiple alternators so they can supply a lot of current to charge the lithium batteries.
based on that video i posted above, stock alternators may have trouble charging lithium batteries, it seems like they draw more current to charge v.s. standard lead acid batteries (seems like). again, not a real expert.


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## vectrasoundz (Jan 19, 2020)

Check these out:


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Most lithiums do not work as a starting battery.

There is always this alternative for starting:








Maxwell Technologies Engine Starting Module


Maxwell Technologies Engine Starting Module




www.maxwell.com


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## Slow Cruiser (Aug 21, 2016)

Christman2021 said:


> I've done post in SMD audio AND SOUND SALAUTION AUDIO a month ago and never got a reply I noticed this page has more activity so I'm gonna try this 🤞


You compared apple to oranges...


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## khlae (Dec 31, 2016)

hmm.... I guess it depends on what metric is ultimately the most important to you in your battery purchase? High current lithium replacements for AGM are pretty expensive. To get within the 850 cold cranking amps range of my $300 AGM battery with LiFePO4 batteries, I'd have to spend over $2400 on the lithium pack. That $2400 lithium pack does have about 30% more capacity, so I wouldn't actually be saving any weight at the end of the day. And I wouldn't have the 1500amp 5 second peak output of my AGM battery.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

khlae said:


> hmm.... I guess it depends on what metric is ultimately the most important to you in your battery purchase? High current lithium replacements for AGM are pretty expensive. To get within the 850 cold cranking amps range of my $300 AGM battery with LiFePO4 batteries, I'd have to spend over $2400 on the lithium pack. That $2400 lithium pack does have about 30% more capacity, so I wouldn't actually be saving any weight at the end of the day. And I wouldn't have the 1500amp 5 second peak output of my AGM battery.


That is why I have the maxwell (supercap) ESM. 1800 CCA @16V


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## Rocketjones (Oct 23, 2008)

Kepworth on alibaba. I purchased a 60ah lifepo4, 750cca, built in bms. Been running it in my 09 Subaru forester. Because my car is an older model I was able to bump up voltage .5v with a diode plugged directly into my fuse box. I bought the battery in the winter of 2019. It's still kicking. Oh it cost something like $360 or $340. Weighs 10lbs. Doesn't burn, gas, charges fast. They ship fast, it came in under a month.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Get in this lithium group.


https://www.facebook.com/groups/2142284452700573/?ref=share



y’all are mistaken if you think lithium cell banks like Lishen or headway can’t start a vehicle. Most guys running lithium cells like headway (lifepo4) or Lishen (Lto) delete their starting battery completely. 

It would never cost 2400$ to get 850cca with lithium banks.

you charge the lithium just like you do any other battery like agm. The alternator charges them no differently. 

If you are on stock alt with voltage under 14.8 you want to use lifepo4 like Headway’s. They start my friends suv totally fine. I had a 56 farad maxwell supercap bank that starts my car with ease and it’s basically 5 or 6 D size cells. If you are charging higher than 14.8 you want Lto cells (Lishen) 

I have a 36ah bank of Lishen that starts my car better than agm. I am going to be booking up the Lishen and a 500farad maxwell supercap bank this weekend in my new car when I install my 370 amp alternator. I’m going to add a 5k linear potentiometer with diodes to the sense wire so I can adjust my charge voltage and raise it to 15.4v. 10-15$ Can get the 5k linear potentiometer and diodes off Amazon.

Here’s my banks I’m running


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## khlae (Dec 31, 2016)

Selkec said:


> It would never cost 2400$ to get 850cca with lithium banks.


Depends on how much reserve capacity you want with that pack.


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## Granite (Jun 3, 2020)

How big are those - can’t really tell? Like beer can size?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Granite said:


> How big are those - can’t really tell? Like beer can size?











3.2V 271AH Lifepo4 Battery Pack, Electric Car LiFePO4 Battery Cell, Ebike Lifepo4 Battery Pack, LiFePO4 Battery Cell


High quality 3.2V 12V 271AH Electric Car Lithium Ion Lifepo4 Battery Pack For Ebike Kids from China, China's leading 3.2V 271AH Lifepo4 Battery Pack product, with strict quality control Electric Car LiFePO4 Battery Cell factories, producing high quality Ebike Lifepo4 Battery Pack products.



www.lithium-solarbattery.com





about 7” x 8” x12”




Selkec said:


> …
> y’all are mistaken if you think lithium cell banks like Lishen or headway can’t start a vehicle. Most guys running lithium cells like headway (lifepo4) or Lishen (Lto) delete their starting battery completely.
> …


Their site says maximum discharge is 310 amperes.
I believe that my starter draws more than that (Diesel engine), so I put in the Maxwell ESM.

a small 2ltr engine could be fine.


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## Christman2021 (Aug 4, 2021)

Selkec said:


> Get in this lithium group.
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/2142284452700573/?ref=share
> ...


Would you be interested in throwing some knowledge my direction?


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## Granite (Jun 3, 2020)

So it looks like a 15ah is better than a 100ah agm.

My question is: what’s the hitch? Is it just extra money, or is it something worse like they don’t work in extreme temps? If it’s just more expensive - why isn’t everyone with money jumping on board?


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Holmz said:


> 3.2V 271AH Lifepo4 Battery Pack, Electric Car LiFePO4 Battery Cell, Ebike Lifepo4 Battery Pack, LiFePO4 Battery Cell
> 
> 
> High quality 3.2V 12V 271AH Electric Car Lithium Ion Lifepo4 Battery Pack For Ebike Kids from China, China's leading 3.2V 271AH Lifepo4 Battery Pack product, with strict quality control Electric Car LiFePO4 Battery Cell factories, producing high quality Ebike Lifepo4 Battery Pack products.
> ...


That site is not talking about Lishen, headway, yinlong or any other lithium cells used in car audio. Within a lithium type like lifepo4 every cell has different chemistry. Some have higher C ratings You can’t look up lifepo4 car battery and get any useful information.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Christman2021 said:


> Would you be interested in throwing some knowledge my direction?


Ya gotta get in that group for tons of good info. I don’t know how to do the math but a bank of yinlong lto has over 3000 cranking amps discharge. You can find many videos of load tests on YouTube also. There is no agm or standard battery that’s even close to what these lithium cells do. They can charge and discharge much faster and hold higher voltage.


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

my understanding is these things do not work if they are under 32F.... i saw that on this solar panel diy youtuber channel, this giy "DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse".

so a lot of the solar guys use special chargers. that is one hitch i am currently aware of.



Granite said:


> My question is: what’s the hitch? Is it just extra money, or is it something worse like they don’t work in extreme temps? If it’s just more expensive - why isn’t everyone with money jumping on board?


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Na. I’ve never heard of anyone or met anyone that ever had any issues in the cold either. Even though they say that.

heat is what messes with them. You can’t put them under the hood


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

@Selkec do you use a bms on your set-up?
a lot of bms's have both low and high temp cut-off so that the cells are not charged or discharged outside of specific operating temp range.
here is one example bms.

"Low temp cutoff: 32° F (0° C)
High temp cutoff: 167° F (75° C)"

"Li-ion/Lifepo4 3s-20s 100a BMS W/ LOW TEMP CUTOFF"


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

JohnnyOhh said:


> @Selkec do you use a bms on your set-up?
> a lot of bms's have both low and high temp cut-off so that the cells are not charged or discharged outside of specific operating temp range.
> here is one example bms.
> 
> ...


No. On my Lishen bank I use a Haltec 6s balancer. Here’s the balancer and what my bank will look like when I getthe case on it


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

i'm going to preface this with i am not an expert but......

this Chinese research paper i googled says stay between 10C-40C, and these BMS's have 0C-75C cutoff safety ranges....
i suspect you guys are maybe ignoring the temperature/performance concerns and marching on?....
i'm not saying that's the worst thing, but i think it is a real world performance issue, thing for some people to consider at least.
i would not dismiss this as it seems to be a concern with the technology. it seems like real thing.
so maybe these are not to be used in cold climates, or.... make sure you warm the batteries up before using them.
they are only for interior use in a vehicle & then also a warmed up, but not too warm, vehicle interior.

"....high environment temperature could accelerate the aging of batteries, while low temperature could reduce output power capability."

"Simulation and experimental results show that the working temperature range between 10℃ and 40℃ could ensure the performance and available capacity"

"(PDF) LiFePO4 optimal operation temperature range analysis for EV/HEV (researchgate.net) "


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

this is probably also an issue with lead acid batteries and agm's.... but maybe to a lesser extent.


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## Rocketjones (Oct 23, 2008)

Lifepo4 works in cold temperatures, you just have to prime the battery first. For example, turn on your headlights for a few minutes before cranking. The draw on the battery creates heat, increasing discharge rate.
Another benefit of Lifepo4 is it has a deeper depth of discharge. Like 80% vs lead acids 20%.


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## khlae (Dec 31, 2016)

JohnnyOhh said:


> this is probably also an issue with lead acid batteries and agm's.... but maybe to a lesser extent.


Yeah, the electrolyte in an lead acid battery can freeze. But it needs to get really really cold. My AGM battery has put up with negative 20 celcius without a fuss.


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

I saw these recently released batteries from Dakota Lithium, they list car audio as an application. They are pretty stingy about the low temp operation in their BMS.
It does make sense, if you can warm them up first, ..... then it'll be okay.

Dakota Lithium 12v 60Ah Dual Purpose 1000CCA Starter Battery Plus Deep Cycle LiFePO4 Performance

"Ideal for rugged & harsh environments. Much better than SLA or other lithium batteries. -20'F min, +150'F max optimal operating temps (battery performs well down to -20'F). Avoid charging below 32'F. Discharge cut off at - 20'F / -20'C. Charge cut off at 23'F / - 5'C. BMS high temp cut off at 167'F / 75'C. "

"COLD TEMPERATURE CHARGING PROTECTION - - Contains a smart BMS temperature cutoff that prevents charging when cells are below 0'F/C and protects the battery."

"CHARGE VIA ALTERNATOR Drop in replacement for lead acid and AGM starter batteries for most mid-sized vehicles. Can be charged by an engine's alternator at 80 Amps or less. For very large alternators with alternators >100Amps (Diesel trucks, large boat engines) a DC-DC charger is recommended to protect the battery and ensure a longer lifespan."


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

i'm going to stop posting random info i find online now, right after this one.
This is from XS power lithium battery product page. sorry if i am spamming the thread.
i am really interested in the promise of this technology as well.

"Prolonged exposure to temperatures above 140 F Degrees will void the warranty and may cause permanent damage to the battery or vehicle."


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

JohnnyOhh said:


> i'm going to stop posting random info i find online now, right after this one.
> This is from XS power lithium battery product page. sorry if i am spamming the thread.
> i am really interested in the promise of this technology as well.
> 
> "Prolonged exposure to temperatures above 140 F Degrees will void the warranty and may cause permanent damage to the battery or vehicle."


They said my engine bay was too hot for a d3100 and that’s why it bulged. That was a damn AGM battery also. So even agm batteries don’t like heat.


if you want real world first hand info on how these perform and want better answers you need to join that Facebook group. And also look at YouTube videos testing these lithium banks


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

i don't have fb, damn!


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Here’s some info on the Lishen cells most like myself use. As you can see -40C charge temp 







Lishen 2.5V 16Ah and 18Ah


FEATURES AND BENEFITS OF Lithium Titanate Battery cell 2.3v 16Ah and 18Ah -Over 30,000 duty cycles -Ultra-high-power performance -High security -Wide op



www.osnpower.com


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## Granite (Jun 3, 2020)




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## Granite (Jun 3, 2020)




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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

Yup, danger. Depending on where you live.
That's one of the challenging things in the automotive environment.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

😂. Y’all just wanna be against it. That’s obvious. -40 to 149 storage temps and you wanna use that as a excuse. Lmfao. Ok. Y’all stick to heavy and weak agm when compared to lithium


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## Granite (Jun 3, 2020)

Selkec said:


> 😂. Y’all just wanna be against it. That’s obvious. -40 to 149 storage temps and you wanna use that as a excuse. Lmfao. Ok. Y’all stick to heavy and weak agm when compared to lithium


I live in SoCal. It gets up to 110 degrees regularly. An hour in the sun will put the car trunk at 155 degrees. Well out of the prescribed max operating range of 122 (max continuous) -140 f (max) for lithium.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Granite said:


> I live in SoCal. It gets up to 110 degrees regularly. An hour in the sun will put the car trunk at 155 degrees. Well out of the prescribed max operating range of 122-140 f for lithium.


Oh. Well that definitely changes the game!


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

i dont think we are against it at all, we are just digging into the facts here (that's the case for me anyway).
i personally love the idea of the technology, i am trying to learn about it.
i think there are reasons why established companies (and also Chinese companies) integrate BMS units attached to these cell systems....
can you build set-ups without them? heck yeah.... are you abandoning the protections they off?.... also, heck yea.
is that a smart idea......????


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

@Selkec I appreciate/respect your input & ideas.


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## Granite (Jun 3, 2020)

Selkec said:


> Oh. Well that definitely changes the game!


Yeah, but there’s gotta be a way. I joined that group to find out more. Can’t stand fb though. 

I read that there are car makers implementing these too.

And Tesla is all over SoCal, so it must be possible.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Granite said:


> Yeah, but there’s gotta be a way. I joined that group to find out more. Can’t stand fb though.
> 
> I read that there are car makers implementing these too.
> 
> And Tesla is all over SoCal, so it must be possible.


I agree. I hate Facebook. I only use it for car audio or other groups


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