# Journey in Car Audio (info-rich for Beginners!!!) Part 1



## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

Introduction:

If you are looking to spend between $400 and $800, then hopefully this thread can help you with some Install tips and choosing your equipment. I first started off with a budget system due to my income. But as my income changed, so did my install. Check out my install now: 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33264

In this thread, you will get a better idea of Phasing, Time Alignment, Imaging, and Quality Equipment.

So, read on,.... because this thread can save you money and might answer some of your questions.

(prices could have changed by now)

(all the highlights in red are for beginners)
(all the highlights in blue are comments from today)

Story:

My first big budget system was about $800, I can't remember much about it other than I had 2 alpine 10" type R subs powered by a fosgate 250 amp and a fancy sony cd player. (I just took the installer's advice)

It had bass, but not the "I'm here" from a block away bass. But in the car, (92 hatch back eagle talon) I was pretty happy.

My second was a Basic Sony Xplod System (about $400)

Sony Xplod CD Deck
Sony Xplod 6" Co-axial front doors (powered by deck)
Sony Xplod 3 way rear (powered by deck)
10" no name active sub. (self amplified) 

This is pretty much a starter system, and the most basic setup.
Basically a budget way to upgrade the stock system in a budget car using factory locations.

I was happy and enjoyed my drive. Sometimes I would park and just listen to music.

FYI: Mercs, Audi's etc,... come with stock systems that have better SQ (Sound Quality) than the basic sony xplod system. 

Sound Quality in car audio: 
Usually determined by "Imaging", "Clarity", "Sound Reproduction" and "Sound Stage" in the reproduction of music within the vehicle.

Then my first experiment was with adding an additional tweeter on the dashboard. The tweeter I purchased was a basic kenwood tweeter with a basic attached crossover.

crossover: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_crossover

And wow, I liked my car system even more. It brought the sound stage higher up to my dashboard and made the sound bigger. My system had a new improved feel to it. (nothing difinitive, but it made a big difference)

Sound Stage in car audio:
The sense of where the sound is coming from. (large room, small room)

Then about a year later I decided to upgrade my player to a $300 Pioneer player. That was an expensive upgrade for me, but because I felt like my speakers were good enough, the player would be the next logical step for me. And it turned out to be a good step.

The first thing I noticed was that my system sounded better. (this is because the cd player had better components to reproduce the musical data from the cd) It had clarity and sounds better at higher volumes(decibles) compared to the "budget" Xplod Cd player. 

Then about a year later I changed cars. And since I Love driving and listening to music, and since my income increased, I decided to get a better system. 

I came up with a theory, larger drivers(speakers) = bigger sound. 

Example: If all drivers were created equal, then 6" drivers will sound louder than 4" drivers. And 4" drivers will sound louder than 2" drivers, etc...
(I had no sense of imaging at this time, mainly because I wasn't aware of it)(and no idea that speakers can not play the whole frequency line between 20hz to 20K hz, which is where music is normally recorded)

Imaging:
The positioning of elements within a recording intended by the recorder.
Must have a minimum of a stereo system(2007)(2 channels, commonly known as a Left and Right channel). A good stereo system can define where the singer and the drummer is during playback. A better stereo system will make it seem as the sound does not come from the speaker, like make the speakers disappear. 

Imaging wasn't all important to me at the time. I just wanted to blast my music.

So my first thought was, replace my kenwood tweeters (about 1" and a half) with 4" drivers on the dashboard and my 6" Door Coaxials(2 in 1 speakers, normally a 6" and a Tweeter) with 8" drivers. I also got a couple amplifiers to power them (sony xplod 4ch and kenwood 4ch) and a kenwood eq/passive crossover to handle the many channels. I had 2 co-axial alpine type R's in the rear and 2 x 12" eclipse sw6300 powered by an american bass amp, so called rated at 1000 watts. (I spent about $1200)(I can do better with $1200 if you asked me now)(I made the mistake of using price as a referance for quality)(NEVER USE PRICE AS A REFERANCE FOR SOUND QUALITY)(RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH)(NEVER TAKE THREADS AT FACE VALUE, unless it came from a reputable person)(no offence to those who are sincere, but I have read some way off garbage)(CAR AUDIO AND ELECTRONICS magazine is my light in CAR AUDIO)(EBAY stores are your friend, I've bought some kick ass equipment from EBAY, save $$$)

Automatically, the installer installed the 4" comp set with their passive crossovers.

Passive Crossover:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_crossover#Passive_crossovers

And Holy Wow, I loved it! It sounded better than my previous set up. It was louder and cleaner, but more importantly LOUDER.

The 4" kenwoods were a basic 2 way component set (2 speakers, normally comprised off a Mid speaker and a tweeter) less than $100. 

I had the 4"s on the dashboard facing the listener in custom enclosures, and the tweeter along side of it. 

*Golden information about a redundant multiple speaker setup:*
I thought I hit the mark with this, so I decided to add another 4" in the factory location, located in the lower part of the dash pointing downwards.
I went with 4" crossfire coaxial (less than $100). And yes it was louder, but just not the same. It wasn't clear, something was wrong. I ended up turning them off. (this is when I learned about PHASING)

Phasing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phasing

Phasing in car audio is bad. It makes it muddy.

So the 4" crossfires were a waste. I even tried a pair of 4" rockford co-axials ($250), because I thought it was maybe a quality issue. And I returned them. So I stuck with the 4" comps on the dashboard. (at this point, I was oblivious to High, Mids and Lows in car audio, I was thinking there were speakers that can reproduce the whole musical spectrum, which is a common beginner assumption) 

Learning about 3 way component sets gave me a wealth of knowledge and opened up new doors for me. I didn't bother looking here yet because they were pricey. (which I know many people do)

So one day, I let some dude audition my car and he said it was so so. I was puzzled, because I thought my car sounds better than most of the basic installs. 

So I thought it was a quality issue. Soon after, I bought a boston accoustic gt series 4" comp. *Which is also my first major driver purchase because it was pricey *($200).

Eureka! Absolutley huge increase in sound quality. 

Revelation: Sound Quality is in the Driver, because if the speakers can't produce the tone, then you won't hear it.

So I was driving around town happily, satisfied, listening while parked etc.

*THIS IS WHEN EVENTS BECOME INTERESTING*

Then months later, having what I learned about Cd players I decided to upgrade. My income increased and so did my options. I bought a pioneer deh p980bt (premier line)($650 at the time), a Pioneer prs-d5000spl mono sub amp($350) and a Audison Srx 2s (2ch)($350). 

I've learned 2 IMPORTANT things from this purchase.

*First Lesson Learned Mono Block Amps (Amplifiers make a big difference)*

I replaced the american bass used to power my 2 x 12" eclipse's with the prs d5000 spl and I instantly realized the bass response was much faster (keeping up with music), cleaner and more powerful . And that I needed a larger capacitor , since my 1 and 2 farad caps weren't enough because the bass started cutting off at higher volumes.) 

capacitor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitors
(capacitors are for *HIGH* wattage systems, and are used to add instant power to the amp when the amp asks for it)(But if the the power requirements are more than the Capacitor's storage(measured in Farads), then there will be a distruption in energy flow which translates to your music cutting off. Which is why people who compete in SPL (sound pressure level) competitions don't bother with capacitors and chain multiple batteries instead) 

FYI: Higher Decibels(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibels) require more power consumption, especially larger magnets, which also adds heat. 

Pioneer Premier PRS-D5000spl:
http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/archive/PRS-D5000SPL/index.html
(I didn't know at the time, but: http://news.hspn.com/articles/855/1...ition-at-2006-DB-Drag-World-Finals/Page1.html)

So, be careful when purchasing mono block amps. Many claim high watts, but aren't, so look for the CEA rating, and if it doesn't have one, and you really want to buy it, then check the aesthetics. Because if it doesn't look good and doesn't have a cea rating, then why bother. Just Kidding . But choosing the right sub amp can make the difference between having the beats on cue, and your sub box playing its own music.

CEA:
http://www.ce.org/AboutCEA/default.asp
(industry authority on industry standards)
(Many major manufacturers have CEA ratings like Alpine and Pioneer)

*Second Lesson Learned: CD Player (CD Player Processors are critical)*
The 980bt comes with 2 very important and critical features, a 24bit Burr Brown Digital to Analog (D/A) converter and *Time Alignment.* 

Digital to Analog:
Music in CD's are recorded digitally, 1's and 0's. CD players have processors that read the 1's and 0's and translate(convert) them to analog information. (sorry, extent of my vocabulary)

FYI: 24bit converters are superior in today's market, especially Burr Browns.(but just because it doesn't have burr brown's doesn't mean it is not up to par or even better) (I've read somewhere there are 64bit or 32bit converters in the market, I was probably thinking home audio, yes, High end Home Audio is leaps ahead of High end Car Audio)(but don't dismay,High end Car Audio goes up to $330,000(http://www.luxurylaunches.com/trans...he_worlds_most_expensive_car_audio_system.php)

Converters are *critical* when it comes to imaging and staging. 24 bit converters are sometimes incorporated in high end amps.

Examples of high end Audiophile grade CD players:
(around $1000 retail)(EBAY is your friend)(hint, go for power sellers)
http://www.alpinef1status.com/e/technology/challenge/index.html
http://www.caraudiomag.com/testrepo...er_dexp9_deqp9_car_audio_head_unit/index.html
http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/...nters+&+CD+Changers&prodid=1077&product=MX406
http://www.clarion.com/us/en/produc...D/DRZ9255/us-en-product-pf_1132912142959.html

Audiophile:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiophile

!!!
TIME ALIGNMENT IS PENICILIN FOR CAR AUDIO
!!!!

*Revelations: "Time Alignment"*

So I hooked up my deck and Holy WOW! it sounds good. I am deeply satifsfied. So I drive around happily again for a couple months. Until one day, I let some installer audition my car. And the dude wasn't impressed. ??? I was puzzled . 

He tried to give me advice saying stuff about what I know now as "imaging". I thought I had that already, just lean to the middle, and you got it ...

So I drove home, played with my system again. But this time, I played with my time alignment settings in the cd player .

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Like neanderthals getting fire...
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I was thinking .........
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"??? wow, what is tis I'm feeling ???"
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hmmm, wow, 
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hmmm wow,...OMG
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WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWO

 HOLY IMAGING ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you haven't experienced time alignment in your car, then start. Because time alignment is important in *creating* that imaging within musical reproduction, that is, if you are not sitting in the middle. 

Up to the point before Time Alignment, Car Audio was like,....cool, like a cool girl to hang out with. But after time alignment, 

... I Fell In Love... 

I began to see the true potential in car audio, I never thought it could be so dynamic, which is why I was hesitant to go all out. I'm a serious Headphone Audiophile(mainly because I used to take public transport), and I was astonished with the abilities of car audio today(which is a big complement). I thought it was only boom boom, roll your windows down and look cool. Sure,... but Car Audio can be much more than that. 

Every time I listened to my system, I was mesmerized, and emotionally attached to my music. If Music were the elixir of life, then my car is the fountain(to bad it guzzles gas). 

By having my speakers on the dashboard, the singer was directly in front of my WINDSHIELD!!! (and super dynamic) I didn't even need to try. My system basically says "Hi, I'm over here" now.

HOLY WOW WOW

(THANKS obviously to my 980bt, Boston Acoustics GT and Audison for my front stage)



I immediately considered buying jewelry for my new found love. I started looking at that expensive 3way at my local audio shop. 

And,....









I told her I LOVE HER with a 3way DLS Ultimate. 
HAHAHHAHAHAHA

And it sounded Beautiful... Extremely Dynamic. But I knew it can be better. 

So I experimented with kick panels, morel and an 8ch A/D/S p850.2 amp. And WOW,... It sounded like a home system.
Cont. part 2

Personal Note:

You don't have to be a so called "audiophile" to know music. And you don't need a lot of money to be apart it. Because the truth is we are all audiophiles.

And from one audiophile to another, don't let the talk of pricey audio equipment get you down. Because its not the equipment that makes the song, it is the gift of hearing. I had a $400 system and I was completely happy. 

But if you can, go the extra step with a good CD player with time alignment(because a good cd player can make normal speakers sound better). And keep on till you get a subwoofer going. And when shopping for equipment make sure to compare with internet prices. Which one is best for you is well,.... Your Journey.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Good for you. You've got the DIY spirit, and I agree that you don't have to spend as much as most people think to sound good.

I'm not sure who you think your audience for that post is, though. "The first thing I noticed was that my system sounded better. (this is because the cd player had better components to reproduce the musical data from the cd)" Tee hee hee.


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## hibuhibu (Sep 11, 2006)

Funny story, yet I was just like that when I started. 
Heart touching. haha


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## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

capnxtreme said:


> I'm not sure who you think your audience for that post is, though. "The first thing I noticed was that my system sounded better. (this is because the cd player had better components to reproduce the musical data from the cd)" Tee hee hee.


HAHAHA 

You never know.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

Hey, thanks for the very nice narrative of your journey into car audio.

You mention "I can do better with $1200 if you asked me now". I ask you now, what is a good system for $1200? Useful for all us noobs. Thanks again for your insights.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

capnxtreme said:


> Good for you. You've got the DIY spirit, and I agree that you don't have to spend as much as most people think to sound good.
> 
> I'm not sure who you think your audience for that post is, though. "The first thing I noticed was that my system sounded better. (this is because the cd player had better components to reproduce the musical data from the cd)" Tee hee hee.


I think his audience is those who are new to car audio, or those who think car audio cannot equal home audio etc.

Not sure what your "tee hee hee" is about. It was a heartfelt narrative, and the condescending tone of your reply was not needed. If you are not in the intended audience, there is no need to disparage the post. His point was that a CD player with better components, such as Burr-Brown converters, sounds better than a CD player without them. That seems to be a sensible statement.


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## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

snaimpally said:


> I think his audience is those who are new to car audio, or those who think car audio cannot equal home audio etc.
> 
> Not sure what your "tee hee hee" is about. It was a heartfelt narrative, and the condescending tone of your reply was not needed. If you are not in the intended audience, there is no need to disparage the post. His point was that a CD player with better components, such as Burr-Brown converters, sounds better than a CD player without them. That seems to be a sensible statement.


 No worries, I found it to be a playful remark.


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## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

snaimpally said:


> I think his audience is those who are new to car audio, or those who think car audio cannot equal home audio etc.
> 
> Not sure what your "tee hee hee" is about. It was a heartfelt narrative, and the condescending tone of your reply was not needed. If you are not in the intended audience, there is no need to disparage the post. His point was that a CD player with better components, such as Burr-Brown converters, sounds better than a CD player without them. That seems to be a sensible statement.



Thanks for the show of support for this thread though.


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## Soundsaround (Apr 22, 2006)

Damn, that's quite a post and quite an install. 
I like how you learned all the lessons first hand from experience. It's always better to have the memory of the actual sound of the things that didn't work. You'll be able to troubleshoot a lot quicker in the future armed with that knowledge.



artcali said:


> Phasing in car audio is bad. It makes it muddy.


Instead of the adjective muddy, I'd say that thin or diffused would be more accurate when describing phase cancellation.

Where is Kota Kinabalu?


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## lostdaytomorrow (Jan 26, 2007)

Go ahead and delete everything in that OP about caps.

Otherwise, it's well-written and looks like you but some time into it.


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## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

snaimpally said:


> Hey, thanks for the very nice narrative of your journey into car audio.
> 
> You mention "I can do better with $1200 if you asked me now". I ask you now, what is a good system for $1200? Useful for all us noobs. Thanks again for your insights.


If I'm starting from scratch, then I will prioritize my front stage and sub. And bidding on Ebay can make the difference between good and awesome. (Just make sure they have a Good feedback, better judgement is important here, because sometimes there is fraud going on)

CD Player: $300 (EBAY new or used) Good sound quality
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_6822_Pioneer+Premier+DEH-P880PRS.html

a nice 2 way comp, I'll go silk because I find titanium tweeters a bit harsh

for Loudness: $200 - $250
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-DIAMOND-AUD...ryZ32819QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

For Detail: $300 originally over $1000
http://cgi.ebay.com/MB-Quart-QSD216...ryZ32819QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Others would be DLS, or Morel (Dynaudio and Hybrid Audio is not affordable at the moment.

A 3ch amp DLS A5 amp: $300 (perfect) (something in this class range)
http://cgi.ebay.com/DLS-A5-Car-Audi...ryZ39739QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Sub: 10" ($200)
MB Quart 10" Premier line
http://cgi.ebay.com/MB-QUART-PWE-25...ZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem

But I would try and bid for this: Eclipse sw8000
http://cgi.ebay.com/ECLIPSE-SW8000-...oryZ3291QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

And $100 for wiring from the internet. 
You'll need a good RCA cable(foil wrapped, twisted, for noise rejection, exp. monster cable xln pro 4c (4ch) http://cgi.ebay.com/Monster-Cable-X...ryZ32811QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) to get from your cd player to your amp. A 4 gauge cable to power your amp, and a spool of speaker cable to wire your speakers. Plus minor stuff. But quality here is last on my list.


A DIY install can save you upto $150, so I would do as much as I can by myself. I would buy my own MDF and make my own sub box if need be. Then read online about proper size enclosures for the sub box and a proper build. 

Good sites for market reference 
Woofersetc.com (concentrated more on high end stuff)
Sonicelectronix.com (more mainstream)

Soundproofing comes later.


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## dcarwin (Feb 2, 2008)

Where is Kota Kinabalu?


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## dogstar (Jan 31, 2007)

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=Kota+Kinabalu&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

That's where Kota Kinabalu is. ^^^

Nice post, a good read for newlies and still fun for more experienced folks.


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## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

Kota Kinabalu is in Malaysia on the Island of Borneo, the 3rd largest in the world.


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

I know you are trying to help out, which is great, but there is so much information there that is poor.

Imaging and staging in stereophonic is about correct acoustic crosstalk in the listening position. It has little or nothing to do with "equipment", and much to do with azimuth and distance or the drivers.

Point
Do all of your testing monophonic (zero vector) for equipment tests. Stereophonic will lead you astray.

Distortion is primary speaker driven.
Enclosures and baffles can make a large difference to a driver. Listening comparisons should be attempted in monophonic with a large flat baffle, and the system "Q" (enclosure volume) maintained throughout various different drivers.
The drivers themselves should be tested on a large signal analysis equipment for distortion. Harmonics (cone geometry driven) and modulation (motor driven) are the primary concerns.

There is a wealth of site information regarding this, and various tests performed.
Please don't loose enthusiam for your desire to help people, but perhaps temper it with some theory.


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## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

sorry guys, posting threads and defending myself is defeating the purpose of my threads. (for those interested, I will make a website someday) It seems the scrutiny will not stop until I write a thesis, theory, and introduce myself, I will, when I have the time (because I care for human advancement, because I'm human). 

Truth is, I wanted people to benefit from my experiences, but short of sitting in my car, or one with a similar setup, some people will be too difficult to convince or talk too. (how can I mention america if america wasn't discovered yet)

Besides the good members in this site, there are bad members who ruin it for those who use these threads for research (I was one of them before) (It happened then, and it is happening now). 

For example, "you will not succeed because this is your first build",??? (WTH was that)(he has no basis for that remark)

Just because he can't do it as his first build, doesn't mean I can't. You don't even know me or my history.

Damn Player Haters, they slow the community.

And just because I'm new to this community doesn't mean I'm a newb. 

All I can say is, on axis, I have listened to both setups, on the dashboard and in the kickpanels, and my choice would be to invest in the on axis dashboard setup (min 2 way comp).

the kickpanel setup is really good... but an on-axis dashboard setup is better. Sure it is just an opinion, but so is yours.
(morel supremo tws must have for any setup) 


And no one scared me away I just got tired of answering questions with obvious answers. 

People!!! Newbs do not just wake up one day and dump high end audio gear into their car, like pxa's and morel, and go the extra step of having sealed enclosures with a 30 degree off set. I don't get 30 degrees out of nowhere. 

My main purpose of posting on this site was to look for driver options, make some friends, and possibly show alternate options to the diy community.

No one mentioned anything about my amp rack , that thing is damn cool, it fits 3 amps, 2 pxa's, a 50 farad cap and it's air conditioned and is located in the back seat, so all I need to do is turn around to tune, and still seats 2 people. 

Oh well whatever.


 Best of luck to you all.


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

artcali said:


> sorry guys, posting threads and defending myself is defeating the purpose of my threads. (for those interested, I will make a website someday) *It seems the scrutiny will not stop until I write a thesis, theory, and introduce myself, I will, when I have the time (because I care for human advancement, because I'm human). *
> 
> Truth is, I wanted people to benefit from my experiences, but short of sitting in my car, or one with a similar setup, some people will be too difficult to convince or talk too. (how can I mention america if america wasn't discovered yet)
> 
> ...


If by merely just introducing yourself all scrutiny of your ideas will come to an immediate halt, would it not have been prudent to complete that task instead of what you wrote? Its just my opinion but it seems like you are looking for everyone to agree with everything that you feel is correct. That is not going to happen on this site as the amount of experience and knowledge is staggering (and I am certainly not referring to myself).


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

I think articali approach is different. He is no means doing too many things by the book. If you'r into to the more formal methods. That's cool too. I think he is going by more what he knows and his preceptions of concepts. In this world of audio the info can be so overwhelming and vague. It' really hard to pin point and convey alot of it. His intentions seems to be contribute something is better than nothing. I know alot of people can relate where he is coming from. Just think though if everything was conform. How scarey would that be?  Everyone's sound system sounds the same and everyone agrees on everything.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Hey buddy,

I admire your attitude and that you don't let the criticism get you down.

Just understand that the criticism is meant to be constructive, not to get you down.

There are some folks here with a WEALTH of knowledge and experience--enough knowledge and experience to spot several misleading statements in your OP.

Boldy march on, brother! Your project looks ambitious to say the least, and I'm pretty sure everyone who looked is impressed by your motivation.

But don't come on here and act like you have nothing to learn, when we have humble EE's and seasoned competitors alike here. It's pretty obvious you showed up just to show off your hack job and brag about your gear, not learn (when you obviously have a lot to learn). So here you go:










Why don't you just walk into NASA and tell the engineers there how to design the space shuttle?


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

1234


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## solacedagony (May 18, 2006)

drake78 said:


> I think articali approach is different. He is no means doing too many things by the book. If you'r into to the more formal methods. That's cool too. I think he is going by more what he knows and his preceptions of concepts. In this world of audio the info can be so overwhelming and vague. It' really hard to pin point and convey alot of it. His intentions seems to be contribute something is better than nothing. I know alot of people can relate where he is coming from. Just think though if everything was conform. How scarey would that be?  Everyone's sound system sounds the same and everyone agrees on everything.


I think you, and articali, both missed the constructive criticism that everyone offered in his three threads. Audio is a science. If you understand the science behind it, there simply is no guesswork. And in that statement is there no implication that every car must sound the same.

I think everyone felt that it was great that he was putting the effort into his car and that he was trying things, which is more than many people can say. Accepting criticism shows that you're smart enough to realize that you aren't smart enough.


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

Sound is science and science is theory based. Yes, it is all objective data. I don't question any of it. Does'nt mean I have to agree with all of it. There is also that "rule of exception". For a moment, I was just putting my self into someone's elses shoes. Who was coming from different prospective(not particulary my own). I also realized the majority of the car audio people don't care at all about the physics behind it. Those people can also be just as content any of (formal by the book) audiophile. Wich was the core of my message. I am just not in favor of telling people. They are wrong because they have different priorities and perceptions. Instead I try to grapse there point of view. I often ingulf myself to opposing conditions and conceptions. To try to unbiasly feel and precieve what/why others feel or think a certain way. I blame this on the fact that everything is a comprimise.


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## solacedagony (May 18, 2006)

drake78 said:


> Sound is science and science is theory based. Yes, it is all objective data. I don't question any of it. Does'nt mean I have to agree with all of it. There is also that "rule of exception". For a moment, I was just putting my self into someone's elses shoes. Who was coming from different prospective(not particulary my own). I also realized the majority of the car audio people don't care at all about the physics behind it. Those people can also be just as content any of (formal by the book) audiophile. Wich was the core of my message. I am just not in favor of telling people. They are wrong because they have different priorities and perceptions. Instead I try to grapse there point of view. I often ingulf myself to opposing conditions and conceptions. To try to unbiasly feel and precieve what/why others feel or think a certain way. I blame this on the fact that everything is a comprimise.


There's nothing to agree or not agree with. You can't change physics. That's how it is.

I understand what you're trying to say. I can't say I know more about audio than half the people on this board and I'm just as content as anyone. No one told him he was wrong for liking what he liked. But when you come to a board to spread information in the hopes of helping members who might not know much, and some of it is misinformation, people are going to correct you to prevent the spread of that misinformation. I fully agree that respect of others opinions is a good thing that we all should do, but science isn't about opinions.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

Thanks!! I am new to this forum and what this forum needs is a FAQ with some product reccomendations for noobs. Perhaps a budget system, an intermediate system, a good system, and a "money is no object" system. There are so many mainstream products (Pioneer, Clarion, Alpine etc) out there and then you come here and find a whole new world of high end products, its hard to know where to start with a "budget" system.

Also, learn to distinguish the haters from those with more knowledge who offer constructive criticism. I think most people have reacted postively to your post.



artcali said:


> If I'm starting from scratch, then I will prioritize my front stage and sub. And bidding on Ebay can make the difference between good and awesome. (Just make sure they have a Good feedback, better judgement is important here, because sometimes there is fraud going on)
> 
> CD Player: $300 (EBAY new or used) Good sound quality
> http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_6822_Pioneer+Premier+DEH-P880PRS.html
> ...


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

solacedagony said:


> There's nothing to agree or not agree with. You can't change physics. That's how it is.



You right in a sense. I don't agree when my ears think differently. Wich is subjective data favored over objective data. Yes, I also agree on the misinformation. I never emphasize that it was by the book.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

snaimpally said:


> Thanks!! I am new to this forum and what this forum needs is a FAQ with some product reccomendations for noobs. Perhaps a budget system, an intermediate system, a good system, and a "money is no object" system. There are so many mainstream products (Pioneer, Clarion, Alpine etc) out there and then you come here and find a whole new world of high end products, its hard to know where to start with a "budget" system.
> 
> Also, learn to distinguish the haters from those with more knowledge who offer constructive criticism. I think most people have reacted positively to your post.


This site is about not only getting the best bang for your buck but also about getting the best sound possible. Most folks here use real DIY drivers that cost a fraction of the cost of any of the main brands listed here. The reason why there is no "budget" recommendation is that we have varying taste in drivers and goals when designing a system. In the DIYMA world there is about a million ways of doing a budget system, choices are endless. You just have to seek.


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## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

To all the beginners reading this.

DO NOT TAKE *EVERYBODY* IN FORUMS SERIOUSLY.

I made this thread for beginners, in a language that beginners can understand. 

And bringing science into this "thread" is like arguing that mankind came from monkeys. 

When people begin to say words like reverberation, transistors, Ymax, GPa, then they are treading into "novice" territory.

The point of my thread was for beginners to have an automatic connection.


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## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

So in my defense of some of the criticism I've received. The most an average beginner will do in car audio is replace their factory equipment with little or no changing of factory locations with minimal amounts of money.

Therefore, I created this thread so those people can get a better picture of what lays ahead.

And at the same time, give a picture to how cd players, DSP's, speakers and amps effect that picture in layman's term.

What some people need to understand is, sometimes, the threads from this website pop up in search engines when they search about car audio. 

So I am basically answering the questions I had in the past. I'm not asking everyone to agree with me, because there is nothing to dispute. I only mentioned my journey, and no theory, and I stated nothing but fact. And it is a pity that some people find that to be misleading to their beliefs.

I didn't mention the science behind what happened, because any more detail than what I stated in my "journey" is deviating from *"for beginners"* and my method of approach, which is, there is an easier way to learn, and it starts from, *"there is a reason why it costs so much."* 

Because of the competitive market, products are priced for a reason.

With this angle of approach, beginners begin by comparing, studying and focusing on features and their benefits, like W sandwiched cones, or beryllium tweeters  etc,... to find a point of understanding or relation to differentiate between products. 

This is a shortcut in a way to save the trouble of studying audio, because for some, there is a difference between recreational and profession. Many end users don't care about how it works, just "what is".

(For Beginners only)*BUT*, just because it has a high price tag, doesn't mean it is good, so *BECAREFUL*, because there *are* crooked companies.

I didn't create this thread for the science of car audio, but only to give other people a recount of my *JOURNEY IN CAR AUDIO*, like the title suggests from *MY entitled OPINION*.
*
If you don't like my thread, then don't read it!* 

I never asked you too.


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## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

So who am I?

I'm the guy who went through the difficulty to put a 10" JL W7 sub in a sealed enclosure in his Dashboard. Which says a lot about my taste and knowledge in audio. 










For more info on my build, go to:

Post #38
@
LINK:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio/33264-inspiring-community-go-2.html

Just because I don't have a million posts or there is a freshman next to my name in this website, doesn't mean anything.

Probably because I don't care much about it. 

And mainly because I spend too much time with my beautiful sounding car. 

BE WARY OF HATERS, they have nothing insightful to offer.


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## cravenmh (Jan 14, 2009)

Artcali,
Thank you for all of the well thought out info. You are obviously very knowledgeable and willing to put your money where your passion is.
Looks like Utopia W cones on your midbass. What components do you have in that impressive ride ?
Thank you, Mike


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## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

Hey, thanks for your support Mike.

These are the current speakers I'm listening to, Focal Utopia 3w2be and 6w3be. Couldn't afford the tweeters yet.


















I also got a set of DLS 8" iridiums for my front door for those lovely bass sessions. It doesn't show in the pic though.

You should check out the link below:
(It starts at post #38.)
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio/33264-inspiring-community-go-2.html

Thanks,
-Art-


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## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

(note for "beginners") Expensive speakers are not the key to find a happy system. But if you can only dream of a Bugatti Veyron, then no honda will satisfy your thirst. With that said, just because the scientific stats are better, doesn't mean its the best for you. I would pick a Lamborgini Reventon over a Bugatti Veyron. So in the end, it always comes down to personal preference. And yes, even good speakers sound different from each other and they produce a different character of sound during playback. So if you can, take a test drive. 

And I will say this, the Focal Utopia 3W2 BE and 6w3 BE are my Reventons. I am completely and utterly content with these speakers. 

I managed to buy them used for $1000 USD(2008). So that is something to think about.

Please understand, that my journey in car audio is not the thirst for perfect audio, but rather a hobby of enjoyment. I have experimented with different setups and equipment, not to find the best, but rather what is the best for me. So if you are in the same category of user as I am, then much love, and don't be swayed by people who use scientific terms to justify what is *THEORETICALLY* best for them. 

Just because something is SCIENTIFICALLY WARM and EXOTIC, like a FRESH PIECE OF CRAP, doesn't mean it sounds good. 

Literacy can never replace experience. 

Ok,...... so it has a 10" cone made with ultra light diamonium juju with no impedance and a frequency range of -1million Khz to 1 billion Ghz, with a BS'iuim magnet. *Stop!* 

Because in my experience, that doesn't justify a good sounding driver. A manufacturer can actually use the best materials and still create a disappointing product.

Every Manufacturer has a design team. And each design team has their own unique science and economy in product line development for a manufacturer. So if you like a certain product, then you essentially like the taste of a particular design team, and chances are, you will be more content with their product lines. But beware, *sometimes*, their taste of sound reproduction might differ to yours in certain frequencies, and it shows in the types of speakers, ie. mids, tws, subs, cd players. amps, etc, that they design. 

For example, some design teams produce good subs, but disappointing TW's or cd players. 

Therefore, the only sure way of knowing is experimenting. 

Taking that first step in a journey, experiencing the mistakes and successes, is all part of life. I'd rather step out the door, over staying home and watch TV about it. Sure, there are things I regret, and I've had a bumpy ride at times, but... Oh well. 

Just expect to have a couple girlfriends before you find the right one to settle down with.

Science helps, but it is not at the level to say what is ultimately good or bad.

At one point, some scientist thought the world was *flat*. 

On another point, some people also say that music playback should be flat, otherwise go get a new system.

But in my opinion, if you think your music sounds better with bass boost or loudness on, then rock on. 

There is nothing wrong with a little NOS, but be careful, because too much turbo boost and NOS can blow your motor if you know what I mean.


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## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

Be wary of people who are critical to others and have plenty to say. These people have no intention of improving their ideas and are close minded.

They are like a wise turtle talking to a free bird. 

Because if you are happy, then you are free. 

But,... if not, go to the curious monkey, because if it makes a mistake, it doesn't go belly up and look like a fool.:laugh:


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## redcalimp5 (Sep 10, 2007)

Art, I liked reading your initial insights on your post. Don't worry about some of the responses you'll get on here from some of the overly left-brained members....some people just seem to try to be too intuitive for their own good. 

Great thread, and great basis for your idea in writing it.


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## radtacular (Jan 6, 2009)

To each their own.


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## audisoner 596 (Dec 15, 2008)

Thanks artcali, superb post for newbies here. 
For me, it all started when I got the Blaupunkt Bremen MP74 (time alignmet, phase, etc all in one HU). Yeah this deck sent me to heaven with a 98' Civic stock speakers - imagine that!! This deck was pricey when it debutted but I got half price from Crutchfield. So there you go, if you're new to what artcali is talking about, get this head deck and you'll simply roll in your sleep. 
(Sorry to all those MacFans and DRZs)


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)




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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Journey in Car Audio Schizophrenia


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## kizz (Jun 22, 2009)

Artcali, I enjoyed reading about your journey becuase everybody starts somewhere and its always with minimal knowlegde. However, take it easy on the metaphor's buddy, your making my head spin.  lol, just kidding. anyway, don't let some of the comments turn what was a fun description of YOUR journey into a big argument. Just takes the fun out of life. 


btw, fwiw, I thought that when you were talking about phasing and someone chimed in about the scientific facts about it, I took it for thats what you were learning as you went at that time. oh well, anyway, regardless, I enjoyed reading about your journey none the less.


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

wow wats up with bring up all the OLD threads i mean this is 2 years old and the guy hasn't been here since 2009


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## kizz (Jun 22, 2009)

Dang, didn't even know that.........hey, I didn't do it. lol


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Horsemanwill said:


> wow wats up with bring up all the OLD threads i mean this is 2 years old and the guy hasn't been here since 2009


His car must have exploded and took his life into the highest of audio nirvana. 

How do you guys know when members leave? Only warewolf had an obvious departure that I could tell.


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