# Full-range dash speaker instead of 2-way?



## Maytag Snow (Feb 10, 2011)

I'd like some creative suggestions for an install problem with stock locations (wouldn't we all?). It is for a '98 Saab 900 and because it is a Saab it is not exactly normal (just different). The stock speakers are relatively uncommon two-screw 3.5s, and the hole is not large enough for most 4-in speakers. The problem is that these are the main speakers in the system (I guess confirming that Saab is a driver's car). The other speakers are 2-way 6x9s in the rear that the engineers installed for immediate and complete image and soundstage destruction. 

There ARE grilles and holes very low in the doors for door speakers, but none installed. I seem to have two options. 1) install a conventional 6-in door and dash tweeter system and deal with half the soundstage at my feet or 2) use door speakers for bass only and upgrade the dash speakers with a quality fullrange to get a smooth and more natural soundstage. 

Am I right in thinking that if I can find full-range dash speakers I can treat them like tweeters with exceptionally low cut-off and not mess up the mid-range with a crossover and/or break up the soundstage?

After a long search, I landed on the small, but promising spec'd 2.75-in Wavecor (FR070WA01), which fits easily with an adapter plate. (fs 113 Hz, Vas .62. Qms 12.9, Qes .55, Qts .55) 

I hoped their small diameter would aid high-end performance, and the .52 Qts and cabin gain would help extend the 113 Hz fs so that they would cross low enough to bass speakers. I had the chance to audition them in a DIY dealer showroom mounted in coffee-mug sized sealed enclosures. Even then, they sounded smooooth and accurate and satisfyingly musical--more like a bookshelf system than a 2-inch tweeter.

I've looked at the box calculators, which promise a 150 Hz (.475 L sealed) or 93 Hz (1.4 L ported) performance, but before attempting to build and install such enclosures (like a ship in a bottle through a 3.5 in hole), I have first just tried stuffing the dash with dense fiberfill for a sort of IB system. 

The sound has the same full mid-bass to treble smoothness I heard in the showroom (and even about another octave more bass than the stock paper-cone speaker (cellos!))--and without that small-driver nasal shoutiness that I hate. 

Am I on the right track, or is this just a blind alley when I try matching them to door speakers?

I would appreciate any advice from your experience.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Maytag Snow said:


> I'd like some creative suggestions for an install problem with stock locations (wouldn't we all?). It is for a '98 Saab 900 and because it is a Saab it is not exactly normal (just different). The stock speakers are relatively uncommon two-screw 3.5s, and the hole is not large enough for most 4-in speakers. The problem is that these are the main speakers in the system (I guess confirming that Saab is a driver's car). The other speakers are 2-way 6x9s in the rear that the engineers installed for immediate and complete image and soundstage destruction.
> 
> There ARE grilles and holes very low in the doors for door speakers, but none installed. I seem to have two options. 1) install a conventional 6-in door and dash tweeter system and deal with half the soundstage at my feet or 2) use door speakers for bass only and upgrade the dash speakers with a quality fullrange to get a smooth and more natural soundstage.
> 
> ...


This can work, but the problem you might run into is a lack of SPL. If possible, I wouldn't focus on getting the F3 as low as possible, but instead focus on getting the SPL numbers up. To pull off this hat trick, you'll be looking for a woofer with a lot of displacement and high efficiency. A lot of the small full ranges don't qualify, because the cone is too heavy. (heavy cone lowers your F3 but kills your efficiency.)

I think this is why Mark Audio puts a lot of effort into using very light and ridgid aluminum cones.

You'll want something with distortion killing features in the motor, such as an underhung motor or shorting rings, or both.

Vifa, Peerless, Fountek, and Mark Audio all offer good candidates. I have some Faital 3FE20s here that I like. The Faital has about 4dB more output than the competion, due to the use of a lighter cone and a motor that's extraordinarily powerful.

Downside to the Faital is a higher F3. Can't have your cake and eat it too.


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## Maytag Snow (Feb 10, 2011)

Thanks for your professional perspective. You are right. F3 is not everything, especially since the other speakers can handle the bass. I'll look into a higher roll off that gives cleaner high SPL to max out their capabilities. Honestly, to my over-30 ears, they play loud enough. I'll try to tune for best total system performance without being too heroic with any single component. And, I'll keep the Faital in mind, for step 3, just in case.

I plan to run some test tones to establish a baseline. I'll post the results as a scientific exercise, in case someone else comes this way.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Don't go fullrange due to low Vd on those... but if you do, go Markaudio as Patrick said, or go CSS FR125s (4.5") which has something like 6mm of Xmax, which is comparable to cheap 6.5s with limited Xmax.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

Look at the Hybrid Audio L3SE.


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## Maytag Snow (Feb 10, 2011)

My thanks to all who responded. You have taught me a lot and given me good pointers on some important performance parameters that I had not considered. I will now focus on rolling off the bottom end to support higher clean SPL while still trying to maintaining a crossoverless system through the lower midrange on up, which I think these speakers can support. After I have taken them as far as I can, I will certainly look to the several good looking alternatives you have suggested.

This is a great forum.


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## SynRG (Jul 30, 2007)

Also recommend you look at the three inch Audible Physics driver. Many are using these in tweeter-less installs.


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## Maytag Snow (Feb 10, 2011)

I'll do that.

Thanks, again.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Here's a good read for you. The Augmented Wideband Approach to Car-Fi: What, Why, and How


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## Gary S (Dec 11, 2007)

If the dash speakers are aimed at the windshield, I would definitely recommend door speakers. Near reflections off the glass sound nasty.

Plus, the dash speakers are too small... they will lack efficiency and bass/midbass.

Door speakers will not sound as bad as you think... we tend to perceive sounds horizontally, not vertically... with a great set of comps in the doors, I think you'll be surprised just how good it will sound... it will certainly sound much better than dash speakers, for a multitude of reasons. Do yourself a favor and try it.


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## Maytag Snow (Feb 10, 2011)

Hi everyone. Just when I thought this thread was dying down, suddenly we get a flood of great new information. The augmented wideband idea sounds like what I have been groping toward in mind--and way better thought out. 

Failing that, or in addition, I am now going to attack the door panels and install either door woofers, or as Gary S. suggests, Full-range or coaxial door speakers instead.

Every car is different, so I will take all of this advice into consideration as I experiment to find what works for me. 

Here's a new question: When I look at rolling off the dash speakers between 100 and 300 hz, the impedance in that region is so high, the passive crossover components get really large and expensive. Ditto for the high pass in this region. Am I right in using the modeled in-box impedance response as the baseline for designing the crossover? 

Thanks in advance. You guys always surprise me.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Gary S said:


> If the dash speakers are aimed at the windshield, I would definitely recommend door speakers. Near reflections off the glass sound nasty.
> 
> Plus, the dash speakers are too small... they will lack efficiency and bass/midbass.
> 
> Door speakers will not sound as bad as you think... we tend to perceive sounds horizontally, not vertically... with a great set of comps in the doors, I think you'll be surprised just how good it will sound... it will certainly sound much better than dash speakers, for a multitude of reasons. Do yourself a favor and try it.


I usually don't post in threads about drivers, but a little mis-info is given. 

But honestly the problem with making blank statement like this is you lead people who have never tried such setups down the wrong road at times, when you have tons of cars that run setups up dash mount mids, that honestly reflected off the the windshield and sound amazing.

Tell one of the best sounding cars around that:










Big Meat might have a little something to say about that:










This Acura sounded amazing, one of the best over the week at SBN2011:










there are many many more around here and around the world with setup like this that sound well outstanding!

I nice midrange or dome midrange with a tweeter or wide-bander or even nice small coax mount on the dash with a door mounted midbass works amazing well. There is nothing like having the midrange pull your mid-bass to above your dash. And it doesn't take running it down to 100hz. Correct tuning it can be down with running them down to 400-500hz.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying all you said is totally incorrect about early reflection as a whole, but there is no way around reflection in the mobile environment.

To the OP is/if this you are interior, it would would work quite well.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Glass reflections don't automatically change good sound to crap, but they are definitely more difficult to work with. I would say that in most cases, it would be a bad thing, the degree of which will vary from setup to setup. But it's not impossible to do it reasonably well.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Why would you build custom passive crossovers? Use active and make it easy and adjustable.


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## Gary S (Dec 11, 2007)

Audible Physics said:


> Don't get me wrong I'm not saying all you said is totally incorrect about early reflection as a whole, but there is no way around reflection in the mobile environment.


 - There are different types of reflections... near, those who's arrival time is close to the direct sound from the speaker to the ear... and late reflections... and there is a big difference... our brains can separate the direct sound from later reflections.... but near reflections, such as those from dash mounted speakers fired at the windshield, cannot be separated by our brains. There is a huge difference in sound quality potential between kick locations which fire at the opposite door window and drivers firing close to and at the windshield.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Gary S said:


> - There are different types of reflections... near, those who's arrival time is close to the direct sound from the speaker to the ear... and late reflections... and there is a big difference... our brains can separate the direct sound from later reflections.... but near reflections, such as those from dash mounted speakers fired at the windshield, cannot be separated by our brains. There is a huge difference in sound quality potential between kick locations which fire at the opposite door window and drivers firing close to and at the windshield.


Do you think this is important in the very high range, say above 10 khz or so for super tweeters? I ask because that's way beyond the range of our ability to directionally locate.


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## Gary S (Dec 11, 2007)

Ludemandan said:


> Do you think this is important in the very high range, say above 10 khz or so for super tweeters? I ask because that's way beyond the range of our ability to directionally locate.


 - I think the near-field reflections will still be a problem... the problem with near-field reflections is not just image related... there are frequancy response issues, phase issues, perhaps even precedence effect issues. Do a search on near-field speaker reflections on the web and see what you find.


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## Gary S (Dec 11, 2007)

Something like this would work well, But I would not recommend it for a daily driver:

http://milbert.com/Files/Autos/Earl/ASS9902c.jpg


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Gary S said:


> - I think the near-field reflections will still be a problem... the problem with near-field reflections is not just image related... there are frequancy response issues, phase issues, perhaps even precedence effect issues. Do a search on near-field speaker reflections on the web and see what you find.


Honestly i don't think anyone is debuting the problem reflections can cause, we all know this, but to tell the OP dash mounted drivers will not work is just mis-info. There are just to many amazing sounding install all around the world that say different. With the Euro guys, you would be hard pressed to get them to install there midrange and/or tweeters in the kicks.

Bottom line is nothing is set in stone when it comes down to mobile audio.I have just looked at to many installs and said man no way that should work, to all listen and be prove quit wrong.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Gary S said:


> Something like this would work well, But I would not recommend it for a daily driver:
> 
> http://milbert.com/Files/Autos/Earl/ASS9902c.jpg


From what hear the install with the mids coming out the dash on the first version of Earl BMW was the better setup. The smaller mids were angled to the listener, but was still quite close to the windshield.


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## Gary S (Dec 11, 2007)

Audible Physics said:


> Honestly i don't think anyone is debuting the problem reflections can cause, we all know this, but to tell the OP dash mounted drivers will not work is just mis-info...


 - I never said "dash mounted drivers will not work"... I simply said that door speakers will give him better all-around sound quality than dash speakers - much better, based on his factory openings.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Gary S said:


> - I never said "dash mounted drivers will not work"...* I simply said that door speakers will give him better all-around sound quality than dash speakers - much better, based on his factory openings.*


I have to disagree with that also. There is just no way to tell which would be better with testing or someone who owns the same car and has tested both sets. 

I have done and listen to many systems with door mount mids and then sail tweeters and sound great. Also dash and a-pillar mount mids and/or tweeters and also sound great. 

I have seen the same systems go from door mount mids to door mounted mid-bass and dash or a-pillar mount midrange and/or tweeters and improve greatly. It has happen more then once on this very forum. 

So your telling all the guys who have dash, sails and a-pillar mount mids and/or tweeters to just move them to the kicks or bottom of the doors and they will improve their sound greatly? hmmmmm not sure about that one. I'm sure a ton of the guys who have invested tons of hours trying different locations and sending even more money on their systems to end up with the drivers on the dash or A-pillars would say different.


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## Gary S (Dec 11, 2007)

Audible Physics said:


> So your telling all the guys who have dash, sails and a-pillar mount mids and/or tweeters to just move them to the kicks or bottom of the doors and they will improve their sound greatly? hmmmmm not sure about that one. I'm sure a ton of the guys who have invested tons of hours trying different locations and sending even more money on their systems to end up with the drivers on the dash or A-pillars would say different.


 - In my career, I've seen people put speakers in every nook and cranny available, with no basis in good acoustics and imaging.

Simply because a lot of people do a thing does not make it right.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

Here is a nice SAAB 9-3 install that uses the N-Core Trius (slightly modified VIFA TG9FD10-04) 3.5" fullrange and a scan 6000 tweet in the dash:

Bilstereobygge i SAAB 9-3 Aero -02

However, member Rbsarve from Sweden has said over the years that he has had great luck with just the fullrange in the dash as the TG9 has a rising response that works off axis. There are many drivers available today....maybe pick one and give it a try....but anyone that has put a speaker on the dash know it takes some tunning to get things sounding really good.


Rbsarve said:


> They are very close in design to one of the stock TG9 units and are indeed made by Vifa.
> 
> What originally attracted us to this model was it´s suitability as a dash mounted speaker. The wide dispersion makes it work well even in quite off-axis assemblies and the fairly long excursion capabilities of this driver makes it able to handle frequencies that virtually no domes can touch. We have tried it crossed over as low as 160 Hz w. 12 dB slope with good results (altough you do pay a price in maximum output.)
> 
> ...


So just forget the questions, forget the arguments...just pick up a pair of cheap Tang Band fullrangers or what ever and try it out with a midwoofer in the door and see how you like it....talk and theory can go on forever.

I am about to try out a couple of fullrange drivers myself...I may even get the chance to do a side by side with a couple of new and beastly 3" fullrange drivers.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

WLDock said:


> Here is a nice SAAB 9-3 install that uses the N-Core Trius (slightly modified VIFA TG9FD10-04) 3.5" fullrange and a scan 6000 tweet in the dash:
> 
> Bilstereobygge i SAAB 9-3 Aero -02
> 
> ...


Ding Ding Ding and we have a winner.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

In the car, the furthest - first - reflecting point is no more than 10" or so, typically...
That results in a reflected time of about 1.3 ms. Now, go look up haas limit or precedence effect and think about how those reflections are really going to matter in your car. 

Point is, in the car, there is hardly such thing as near and far field reflections.

Edit: had to clear up the first sentence


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## cheesehead (Mar 20, 2007)

WLDock said:


> I am about to try out a couple of fullrange drivers myself...I may even get the chance to do a side by side with a couple of new and beastly 3" fullrange drivers.


Just waiting to set up a time! Did you get my pm last night?

Great information guys. Just curious why someone would click to send this to the "Dumb question" section.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Gary S said:


> - I never said "dash mounted drivers will not work"... I simply said that door speakers will give him better all-around sound quality than dash speakers - much better, based on his factory openings.


You should tell that to all those guyz: IASCA World Championship - Daytona Beach, Florida 
Heck, tell that to Scott Buwalda - SQ highest score ever. 

Lot's lot's lot's of mis-info... 

The OP needs to try with door speakers, dash speakers and kick panel speakers and decide which setup sounds best in HIS car. That's it, there's no magical voodoo that works for every car... 

Kelvin


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

subwoofery said:


> The OP needs to try with door speakers, dash speakers and kick panel speakers and decide which setup sounds best in HIS car. That's it, there's no magical voodoo that works for every car...
> 
> Kelvin


That is the best post in the entire thread! Very well said Kelvin!

Also... Mark, Erin, and Walt are all correct about dash speakers working just fine in lots of cars. Every car? No. But nobody said that dash mids worked in every situation. Just my .02 on the subject.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

subwoofery said:


> The OP needs to try with door speakers, dash speakers and kick panel speakers and decide which setup sounds best in HIS car. That's it, there's no magical voodoo that works for every car...
> 
> Kelvin


It has been said this a million times. Try different location and see which you like best.

Yep words of wisdom. That is all I have been saying the whole time. Just don't say it will sound like crap and that one way will always sound better it is just not true. As I said on the first page *nothing in mobile audio is set in stone.*


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

Audible Physics said:


> It has been said this a million times. Try different location and see which you like best.
> 
> Yep words of wisdom. That is all I have been saying the whole time. Just don't say it will sound like crap and that one way will always sound better it is just not true. As I said on the first page *nothing in mobile audio is set in stone.*


I haven't wanted to say anything in this thread because I just couldn't believe all the crap that has been posted.


What Audible Physics has posted is the truth!


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

Audible Physics said:


> Ding Ding Ding and we have a winner.


Well, we all know how you feel about fullrange drivers Mark with AP droppin' those gnarly 3 inchers on us. Hoping to borrow a set of the AR3K from member Cheesehead to listen to and compare with that new underhung Tang Band W3-1878 that I just picked up. Should be interesting as they both look like beast but interested to see how good they sound.




cheesehead said:


> Just waiting to set up a time! Did you get my pm last night?


 Yeah, lets work this out! I will send a PM or call today.

Walt


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

WLDock said:


> Well, we all know how you feel about fullrange drivers Mark with AP droppin' those gnarly 3 inchers on us. Hoping to borrow a set of the AR3K from member Cheesehead to listen to and compare with that new underhung Tang Band W3-1878 that I just picked up. Should be interesting as they both look like beast but interested to see how good they sound.
> 
> 
> Yeah, lets work this out! I will send a PM or call today.
> ...



Honestly Walt it has nothing to do with wide-band drivers (no such thing as a fullrange) as none of the cars I post use wide-band drivers. But it has everything to do with providing mis-info and just saying something will not work and just saying it will sound like crap, when it has been proven over and over again to work great. Wide-band or standard midrange/tweeter setup make no difference.

LOL and yep they are kind of beastly, let me know what you think.

But to the OP once more, as stated above, the only way to know what work is to test it. Good luck with your install.


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## Maytag Snow (Feb 10, 2011)

I am really getting a lot from this ongoing discussion. Wow. I just looked at the Swedish Saab install sent by WLDock. I had not seen that one before, nor anything quite so clean. 

I have not posted because we are kind of busy with other things here in Japan at the moment, but I do check this site regularly for a bit of relief. Actually, before anybody asks. I live in Yokohama and commute to Tokyo, so we only have to deal with train delays and occasional blackouts, not the rough stuff up north. 

I listened to the Wavecors in the stock location again last night, our first drive since the quake. They sound very balanced and smooth up top. No need for a tweeter. I did notice the image was not very coherent due to too much direct sound from near speaker and not enough from the far speaker. I will try aiming them on a modeling clay base to see if I can improve that. Then I will make something permanent. When I get the basic soundstage optimized for the dash speakers, I will look into adding door mid-woofers and playing with crossovers to extend volume and frequency range. It really does sound better already, but I am anxious to try some of the other ideas in this thread. As we all agree, each car is different and experimentation is the only way to go.


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## Maytag Snow (Feb 10, 2011)

Project Update:

Big progress, but from an unexpected change. I said last week that the speakers were smooth, but not coherent. Yep, out of phase. Lesson: don't do an install when you are tired. BUT, BUT, the rears were out of phase with the fronts--from the beginning. I checked the wiring harnesses. That is why the rears popped out so distinctly when I tried to fade them in. If the previous owner had not changed the wiring at the head unit, I guess the factory considered it to be a sort of surround sound effect. Rewired IN PHASE front and rear, I could bring up the 6x9 rears much higher to fill out the lower registers and not lose the front image. This is far from the standards most of you strive for. Front and rears are both running full range and sharing the same tone controls on the head unit. It could not be more basic, yet, the sound from just this set up is very listenable. My take is it is probably a good idea to nail the fundamentals before adding equipment and complication. Now that it is "good", I can focus on "better" instead of on fixing "bad".


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Maytag Snow said:


> My take is it is probably a good idea to nail the fundamentals before adding equipment and complication. Now that it is "good", I can focus on "better" instead of on fixing "bad".


Brilliantly put!! Glad that it's sounding better so far. Keep at it!


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