# Can some one help???



## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

Ok now that i have everyone's attention I am just a little bit curious about something. First off I have been around car audio for a very long time(eve before they put sub woofers into cars). I was never a builder of boxes or custom fabs but i know how to position things just right so it sounds the best, I know how install, wire, hide just about anything you want to put into your vehicle. 


But to make a long story short I currently own a pair of Pioneer TS-W301 12 inch subs. YES YES YES I know they are a free air woofer I do understand that they DO NOT work well in a box(so Pioneer says :mean: ) I have owned them for a few years now 6 to be exact. They are not in pristine condition (now only a little dusty from storage) but i consider them great(nothing affects the operation of them) and they are daily thumpers (Alpine MRD-M500) THEY SOUND GREAT!

NOW! I am currently changing my set up in my 1996 Jimmy I am adding a Power Acoustik SL2-1000 to drive my 301fs and was thinking of building a new enclosure for them.BUT! As only being an installer and somewhat diyer i have absolutely no idea on what size (Cubic footage) would be best for them.

I do have the specs for the drivers but not sure what to do with them.

SPECS

T / S Pioneer TS-W301F:


Fs - 23.3 Hz
Qts - 0,33 
Qms - 6,38 
Qes - 0,35 
Vas - 234,76l 

Mms - 73,5g 
Xmax - 8mm 
Sd - 511cm^2 
Re - 3Ohm 
Le - 0,37mH 
BL - 9,64Tm 
P(RMS) - 150W R 
SPL - 93dB 


I know the subs are fairly old not exactly sure what year but I do know that i like them a whole lot and would like to continue to use them.


SO HELP!!! I came across this forum site one night looking for information on my old school alpine stuff and registered. And now still a nOOb here I was hoping that some one out there can help me out

Thanks for any help i may get


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Teach a man to fish:

go download WinISD Pro, a free box building calculation program, so you can figure out what box is idea for the frequency response you want to have.
http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisdpro

Then, build to spec, and test out to make sure you like the results.

Don't forget to figure in a little cabin gain around 80hz and down.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

BTW, the quick numbers I figured out were:

Optimal sealed box of 65.39 liters...2.3 cubic feet

Ported box 121 liters, tuned to 29Hz....4.27 cubic feet.


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

Is that per woofer?


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

oh and i was thinking sealed because of my amp rack and im not that keen on the sound of ported I like the sound of sealed


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Fourthmeal has it; download winISD, enter that stuff in the driver database as new driver, and model it. That will give you a good idea of what you had in the past if you had them in a box, and you can drag the box to change size and see the response change. Its really easy and you can put any sub specs in it.

If they are IB (free-air) subs they will loose the low bass in a small box, but have good bottom that reaches down low with a huge box, and have a smooth curve. Just put in a huge number to simulate IB, you will see after a point the response changes little when enlarging the box and that is essentially IB mounting...as used in a car. They will work in a box, it just needs to be so large most don't bother (to get low bass like IB will). You can also simulate various ported configurations, and compare other drivers at the same time, and it shows SPL. Its not that hard to use is the simplest program I've found.


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

pics of said drivers


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

I am really glad I came across this site late one night you guys have been a big help


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

Is my AP capable of this?


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

sorry my Power Acoustic (fat finger moment)


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

You tell us...what is its output at 2ohm? DL the manual if you need to.


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

now I know why I didn't try winisd before because it wont let me ad my woofer it says the Thiele/Small Specs are wrong and as for the amp i couldn't find anything on it that i didn't have to pay for maybe i didn't look hard enough i don't know lol


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

30 seconds on google show that the PA SL2-1000 only puts out about 220Wx2 @ 4ohms stereo, and 280x2 @ 2ohms, it will bridge but only to 4ohms. 

This means you can't do what you want to do. You are better off running one of each channel. 

Now then, for the specs:

There is a technique to WinISD that the forums will teach you (the WinISD forums, that is.) The program wants to auto-calculate some of them so let it, so the numbers match up correctly.

I put in the QMS, QES, and let it pick the Qts. Then, I pick the Fs, and the VAS in liters or cu. ft., and save it. If you want to add more specs down below, make sure to read the forums carefully for the correct procedure. The reason is that WinISD is very accurate, more accurate than the rounding that you see in T/S specs on most company's sites. This makes errors for it. Fix this and you'll be golden.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

BTW the MRD-M500 was a superior amp at 2ohms mono.


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

so are you saying i should use the Alpine over the PA?


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

maybe its me but i just cant seem to get winisd to work proper


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Well then just trust my numbers, and build a large 2.3 cubic foot (per sub) box.

The MRD-M500 is a vastly superior amp to Power Acoustik. In this case, it is most superior because the MRD-M500 is a monoblock amp that can run 2ohm, so your plan to parallel your two subs will work. And, work well.


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

but isn't 2.3 a little small considering on how big the average trunk was when these subs were produced?


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## monkeybutt (Oct 1, 2005)

BuBz said:


> but isn't 2.3 a little small considering on how big the average trunk was when these subs were produced?


I'll second Fourthmeal's numbers. Box volume net 2.3 cu ft. per sub. F3=50hz at Qtc of .707


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

^^those #s look good bubz. And I'll give my vote to the Alpine amp as well. Where is the H-bomb anyway? Hamilton?

Almost forgot, here's your serving: Basic Car Audio Electronics


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

Yea H-Bomb = Hamilton Ontario I personally thought that the PA would have been a better amp for what i was trying to do I guess I was wrong yet again now this changes my whole design idea POOP!


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

if i build a box like build a box like this? h=16 w=38 d=15.25 for a total of 4.58 Cubic feet and separate chamber the subs it should sound OK?


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

that being in inches and outside dimensions


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

Sorta like this??? Anyone?


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

BuBz said:


> SPECS
> 
> T / S Pioneer TS-W301F:
> 
> ...


First, if they're old drivers, you might want to check those specs by measuring them yourself, if you have the means to do so. 

Having said that: assuming that the actual specs are an exact match for the published specs...

I wouldn't use too large a sealed box. See that Xmax figure? That's pretty low for a 12" driver these days, certainly one that's going to be used in a sealed box. Of course, if Pioneer designed it for free-air use, it's likely the suspension is designed with that in mind. In any case, I suggest trying out a smaller box than the "0.7 Q sealed box" suggested by others. Going by the specs, a 1.25 cu.ft. sealed box per speaker, 100% stuffed with polyester fiberfill might work out quite well. 

If you've got the spare MDF, I suggested building a test box with that net volume and try it out with one of the drivers. It might just work quite well.


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

awesome!!! they are in a box about 1.6 cube per driver right now and its way to small for my 1995 jimmy so i was hoping i could make a bigger box for them safely. Maybe I should have just kept the 10 000 watt MA I just sold!


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

Ok awesome i know what im doing with the box for my subs SO now time to pose another question, I am redoing a whole new system in my 1995 Jimmy as it is off the road right now. My truck has a set of Visonik V540XTC with these specs 

5.25" Component System
150W RMS
300W MAX

Woofer Specifications:
Sensitivity: 93dB @ 1w/1m
Freq. Response: 30Hz - 2kHz
Mounting Depth: 2.5"

Tweeter Specifications:
Sensitivity: 91dB @ 1w/1m
Freq. Response: 2kHz - 25kHz
Neodymium Magnet Structure
Surface / Rush / Angle Mounting

I currently have them in my doors i wish i had pics but cant seem to find them but anyways i have them in stock locations with the tweet surface mounted. Now upon further investigation of my truck i relize i can mount a 4x6 plate in my dash and i do happen to have a set of Infinity series 2 ways that i could put and then run my front stage off of a 4 channel and my rear stage(yet to determine what to put in here) off of a 2 channel amp and my subs from my mono block alpine, so the question is this do i redo my doors to better house my Visoniks and run the Infinitys in my dash OR........ do i make a kick panel to house my Visoniks and run nothing in the doors and the Kappas in the dash?? the dash has a 1 inch tweet in a steel plate which all comes out to house the Kappas. You guys have been such a big help, so i figured id ask what to do any suggestions??


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

BUMP!


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

how the hell do uoy bump this back to the top LOL!


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I'm not going to lie to you, you're not running equipment worth a goddamn.

Visonik!? Seriously?

Sell that **** to people who don't care how it sounds.

If YOU care about sound quality (and that's what this place is ALL about), then read through the forum a bit and pick up on the way we do it.

Its a different world in here compared with your typical hack-job BestBuy and Futureshop stuff (see..those are in Canada!) We're on another level, and we want you to be on that level too.


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

Im trying and I have learned a lot in here I would love to get some new drivers for my doors any suggestions? try to think best sound for an even better price please or maybe some suggestions on drivers in the 6/8 inch range and maybe a set of tweets too please then ill hunt some down used ive looked at the stuff for sale on here and just unsure of what to buy


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

I am in need of guidance


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

BUMP


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Yeah I didn't mean to be mean there, but you're playing with junk when you've got potential here. Stick with the MRD-M500 amp (a superior amp to the Power Acoustik), and maybe consider getting a matching 4 ch from the same line of Alpine, which is a solid, simple amp.

For fronts, you need to work through the forum for reviews and thoughts on components. If you want the easy way out for now, go with:
A. Cheapest - Phoenix Gold RSd components, 6.5", still quite amazing for only ~$60.
B. Good bang for the buck - Image Dynamics CTX, woofersetc.com has them for around $175 ish.
C. Solid heavyweight contender - Pioneer TS-C720PRS components, usually around $225, and you can dig up live cashback on them sometimes.


For subs, stick with your two older ones, and give them a very big box per my suggestions, or at the most 20% smaller. Later on, you'll probably want to swap these out for quality modern units, since subs have come a long, long way from times past.

Lastly but actually most important, what deadening have you done to the car? You need to deaden and seal your doors best you can,...look all through the forum for guidance on how to do that.

Later on, we'll talk about going active but for now you need to cover the basics.


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

Ok when i first bought the truck over 2 years ago i deaden it with Dynamat Xtreme, and speaking of the matching 4 channel amp for my mono alpine GRRRRRRR I had the opportunity to buy the 4 channel version of my alpine and i passed it up u see I got the alpine from a friend awhile back he bought them both brand new and when he sold me the mono block I passed on the 4 channel and have always kicked myself since but i know who has it and could possibly get it BUT here's another thing I have in my possession a Alpine 3006 18x18 amp and an alpine 3512 65x65 amp and also an Alpine 3015 computerized eq NOW here's my thoughts id like to run the 3006 to my doors and the 3512 to my rears and have the eq run them both  good idea or bad idea?


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

switch that around. put the bigger amp on your front speakers


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I have used some of those old alpine amps and they sound great but don't always have much power. They like to run hot as well. You can make a DIN to RCA to run them but some don't have gain controls. I run a fan on them if needed.

For comps get 6.5 if they fit they are better than 5.25, more midbass.


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

I have been waiting on someone to help me rewire them to RCA but its taken forever and he still hasn't gotten back to me


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

I also own the matching Alpine 7537 deck I would love to use this whole system just need to replace the pio with some newer/older drivers


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

**** i meant the 7347


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

oh yes and pioneer is saying 

We do not recommend using them in a box, because they may be pushed toohard and the coil may become burnt. 

If you must use a box, it should be ported so air can flow out and awayfrom the woofer. 

Customer Call Center Pioneer Electronics of Canada300 Allstate Parkway Markham Ontario L3R 0P2Toll free: 1 (877) 283 5901Fax: 1 (877) 746 4848



BUT yet still no response from them for a size


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

Just ordered a set of Hertz Audio Mille MLK 165's i have heard nothing but good things about these any feed backs??? A friend had bought them but never installed them before his truck was stolen, I prolly paid wayyyyyyy to much for them but i hear the quality is unsurpassed


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Another issue is a lot of speakers are lower efficiency today. I used to run all ~40wrms speakers back then and blew one here and there, because they sounded better and went louder than the inefficient higher power drivers. I ran [email protected] amps on them mostly.

I ran a 3518 the most, it may be newer. It seemed to have more like 1v input if not 2v, I never had a problem leveling it out with other amps running newer 2v HU and external processors. All you need is a DIY DIN plug for it, and get a cheap short RCA and solder the RCA on the right pins. I think you can find the alpine DIN online or I may have it here someplace. The plug you want is like this one at Mouser though this is not the right one 17DN101-EX. In fact I better find out because I need to make one. I mean then you can do what you want, if it is using a larger amp on the rears or whatever.


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

Findng anything on older Alpine DIN plugs has become quite the www. adventure because there is nothing out there


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

BuBz said:


> Findng anything on older Alpine DIN plugs has become quite the www. adventure because there is nothing out there


I'll find out, I have one but another amp needs one. I have some others but not the right pins. I also have the service manual for one, that should tell something.

I looked, it is a 8 pin DIN and I think a 270 degree. They can be found for a few bucks. Might be able to use a 180 5 pin though, I think that covers the ones I need. The remote is 9 o'clock then left, shield, and right not sure what way just looked at the schematic quick. That is all you need unless you want accessory power and stuff. You do need to use that for the remote to turn it on. I have another one here that fits, but I don't know if it is wired right. Need to use female RCA though unlike a typical RCA cord, or adapters of course.
http://www.markertek.com/Product.as..._medium=&utm_term=&utm_content=&utm_campaign=
http://cgi.ebay.com/8-Pin-DIN-Plug-...5|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50
Those should be the right ones, but that is 99% sure.

This mp3 plug would be perfect for the RCA ends: http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=172-0003
Epay has them cheap but the are male RCA.


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

Kool that would be awesome, anyone know where i can download the DB Jams cds???


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## BuBz (Apr 9, 2009)

im making door pods for my 1995 GMC jimmy i will be putting in them a 6 1/2 inch and a 5 1/4 inch driver s well as a tweeter how do i wire it?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

You don't want to do that!

Less = more, you don't want two drivers that play nearly the same frequencies playing close to each other.

Look up comb filtering, and this question will resolve itself. Also, you're going to smear the sound image all over the place w/ this idea.

IF you want to do it in a 3-way style, you need to consider going with drivers that don't play into each other's frequencies as aggressively. For instance, an 8", a 4", and a tweeter.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Right. You can do it, but will have to be careful about the 6.5 playing under the 5.25, such as LP 6.5 at 80Hz and HP 5.25 at 100Hz or something like that. In reality a different size pair would do it better as a 4" will play higher better and an 8" would make midbass great all day. But if you have them and/or that is all that will fit it is usable. Some people run 6.5 comps and 6.5 midbass, but like I said they do not play the same frequencies and typical the midbass is a more HD driver or woofer actually.


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