# Horn Installs - Tricks to make them sound good.



## P_4SPL

I've recently finished my install in my vehicle, after a few years without a properly mounted ALT to power my system, I was able to complete my install in my vehicle with a second alt that is firmly mounted to the vehicles chassis.

*I've learned alot about Waveguides / horns and have found that no matter how you passively treat them to reduce their resonances they can still sound very harsh.

So I've decided I might quickly make a tutorial on how to Remaster your Music playlist so it plays back in your vehicle and horns with a cleaner louder sound.

I would like to start by saying that most music today is mp3. This IMO is not really recommended to play back audio on expensive and sensitive equipment in your vehicle. For starters the db output is severely reduced compared to 16 bit audio. This means you actually need a more powerfull amp to output the audio track. More amplifier power is wasted attempting to increase the output of a small music file.

Example: Typical mp3 file = 128,000 bit/s

CD 16 bit Audio = 1,411,200 bit/s

Ratio = Ratio: 1,411,200/128,000 = 11.025 = 11 X more power required to play back the audio to listenable levels.


The above is just a general example of what acoustic issues occur for Compressed music file playback etc.


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## Eric Stevens

A lack of compression as the volume increases is more the issue. With a conventional direct radiator system the power compression softens things ad the volume is raised up.

Proper tuning and adjustment gets more important with a HLCD so they sound great at all volumes. Nothing you do will make a bad recording sound good though. 

If its harsh pull down 2.5Khz and 3.1Khz about 3-6dB and pull down 2Khz and 4Khz 1-3dB


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## P_4SPL

Eric Stevens said:


> A lack of compression as the volume increases is more the issue. With a conventional direct radiator system the power compression softens things ad the volume is raised up.
> 
> Proper tuning and adjustment gets more important with a HLCD so they sound great at all volumes. Nothing you do will make a bad recording sound good though.
> 
> If its harsh pull down 2.5Khz and 3.1Khz about 3-6dB and pull down 2Khz and 4Khz 1-3dB


* Horns can be a can of worms. IMO

I've spent Years with my horns trying to make them sound good, first with analog X-overs, then to Digital X-overs, then to digital Eq's> The digital DSP stuff really improves the horns overall sound... EQ'ing the bad freq's works very well, even with Parametric done right they will sound good.

Unforunatly Music in general is not done properly anymore, it's run hot with tons of clipping and really no headroom, due to mp3 limitations, including CD audio tracks.

I remember when I first tried a CD in the car with the horns, the track sounded like my speakers where going to explode, (and they did) but that was due to underpowering my drivers. None the less, music is way too over clipped and most tracks I listen to can sound very fatigiung to your ears.

* I don't have much choice for high quality music sources with the music I prefer to listen to, I don't listen to Eric Clapton, or the Beatles, or other main stream bands. Those Artists have great sounding albums and tracks, but the music I prefer to listen to is not mainstream media, as well most people are able to find nicely done music from artists and bands, and I've heard alot of music posted by these listeners in forums with youtube video's showing what they're listening to in their cars... and the music is done really well. But the music chosen is not always my taste for what I would like to listen to.

I've found that Mastering software can and does improve the sound of music files so they sound realistic and fun in the vehicle environment etc.

Vehicles have bad resonances especially in the doors, the cavities can resonate acoustically that plays havoc with the rear phaseing of the drivers thus causing backwave distortion no matter how well you damp the rear.

I've learned some techniques that improves the playback of audio tracks in the vehicle, and can compensate for acoustic issues for all drivers in the vehicle etc.

* To put it quickly, if you've ever listen to a desktop set of speakers without any subwoofer you'll notice the sound from the drivers is dispersed radially with little coherence, this is because there is no low freq's to support their output, none the less the music still sounds like ass, this is an example of what most music does and will sound like, completely incoherent and ONLY created to be played back on streaming services or radio platforms.

* Play that same track on a pair of horns, and it will quickly fatigue your ears unecessarily, horns are too efficient, they launch sound faster than out ears can coherently process it, thus due to their reflective surface inside the horn body, this radially expelled sound increases in saturated dstortion, somtehing I would say is akin to placing your ears next to a metal dome tweeter diaphram and hearing how distorted the off angle feq's can be...the reflective surface of the horn body can create alot of issues in the vehicle, although I have never heard what Plastic Horn bodies can sound like, my Metal Veritas Horn bodies have alot of reflections off the metal surface that dilute the soundstage.

*This brings me to one of my recomendations for solving this issues with horns, Compress the high Freq's enough so that they disperse evenly regardless of off angle dispersion inside the horn body etc.

If I can download some test tracks I've re-mastered on here I will when I get the chance.


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## cajunner

enter 

the Nautilus Door Tamers, a new unique device consisting of a nautilus shaped Sorbothane mat that rides behind the door speaker inside the door with deep relief, 2" vanes.

If the frequency is too short to get caught up in the Nautilus, it's not strong enough via internal damping by the 3/4" thick viscous mat, to produce any backwave content through the cones of most paper drivers. 



If the frequency is long enough to be trapped inside the Orwellian helix of deep-inset vanes then it will be dispersed and redistributed, effectively muting it by 5.9 db, lower than with no back wave treatment alone. This reduction in return echo is sufficient to produce a 300% decrease in standing wave destructive interference, and is an adjunct to your FAST rings and decoupling mounting screw/rivet nut solutions for the ultimate in technologically advanced door treatments...


taking orders, 10" midbass requires 3" thick version and costs extra, all others from by nines to 4X6" stockers can be improved, come on and buy me a yacht...


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## P_4SPL

* Ok here's a track that I've reduced (Compressed) overall output of all freq's including the bass...the reason is I'm running Dual w7's in Free Air, so it helps them from using too much dispersion in the peaky freq's of bass output etc.

The track might have some sort of fine digital distortion due to the Conversion process from wav. to Video > to youtube etc...but the track has negligible simblance (other than the processed digital artifacts that sort of was introduced in the conversion process.)

* The overall output still remains at 0db Peak.

This track has been remastered, so I've done some teaks to the overall sound, but still aimed at keeping the sound to better suite the Vehicle Environment etc.



I was able to sneak this by youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q_8-pBTP-I&feature=youtu.be


*This is the original Track Unmastered ~ Its sounds Ok there are not many deficiency's in sound, but at louder volumes it might sound a bit dull.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmmqNppbEYg&feature=youtu.be


* I've noticed that the track I've re-mastered has alot of fine distortion commpared to the original file, so I will have to re-upload some more tracks to better compare them.

I still can't upload a perfect file to youtube without youtube distorting the heck out of the file with processing, if anyone has any suggestions feel free to do so. * I'm not sure how other youtube uploaders are able to transfer perfect audio files that sound perfect, but other's are unable to ~ I'm sure the conversion process does alot of unecessary stuff to the file.


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## P_4SPL

*Re: Horn Installs - Tricks to make them sound good. With Software*

I'm gonna start off with Compressing the freq's. All of them. The low freq's are recommended for people running Free Air IB setups.

The software is Izotopes ozone 6 pro. ( I'll tell you later why the pro version has significant results and more tweaks to the sound).

The Standard Version is usually $400 ~ The Pro goes on sale from time to time for $600.

This software is IMO very precise in encoding the music file without introducing any artifacts or distortion as I have experienced with other software.
*

NOTE: Important: This post is not about technical issues related to an install of Horn's or any component in the Audio System. It deals with the aspect of Poor Logistics in the Record industry that only seem to follow specific Protocols on what the record company requires of the Engineer, these requirement specifics have deteriorated to Logical expletives that drastically reduce the the user experience when played back on any given system weather in home or in Vehicle etc. Due to the extraordinary Nature of music produced it sometimes cannot and does not full fill the requirements of our music listening experience.


Step #1.*










The above image shows the compression Plugin of the software.












*NOTE: Dither / Noise Shaping and Bitrate:*

There are only 16 bit and 24 bit output options. Please set to 16 bit if you prefer loud aggresive sound. In my experience 16 bit retains alot of the loud agressive parts of the track.
Switching to 24bit output actually increases soundstage depth and dimension for a warmer fuller sound that can come out slightly transparent if not re-filled with extra harmonics.
Dithering: I find choosing the dither amount at Medium will serve most tracks well.
Noise Shaping: There are 6 presets including off. Each preset sets a reduction in Midband frequency output, the higher it is set the less output you will get at the specified freqs in the Chart. This can help reduce sharp highs and smooth them out better, The lowest settings increases low freq output and warms up the sound.




The first equipment you will really need is a pair of desktop speakers, they don't have to be expensive, as long as they have enough output to be heard properly when playing back music files. I would also recommend drivers with a metal dome tweeter, since most horns only use metal domes.

* The image above shows some settings in the izotope compressor plug in. What we need to focus on is the compressor setting graph on the left with the dual output bars. This area shows two level adjusting meters. 

The top bar is the peak freq's that will be allowed to run through the compressor. The bar located down the middle is the maximum output of that freq' (it acts like a volume knob that reduces the overall output of that specified freq'. The Plugin picture shows the RED high Freq'y compressor, but for now I'm going to quickly use this as an example for ALL compression freq's since they are all the same in the plug in minus the colors.

Start off by finding a music file and placing it in the software, switch to the compressor plugin and when you look at the top of the screen you'll see, 4 colored lines, the Purple is the Low Freqs, The Blue line is the mid-bass freq's the yellow is the mids, and the red is the High Freq's. You can play around with those if you wish, but mostly you will need to do something more specific. By hovering over the the Colored lines graph in the plugin small buttons appear over top the line chart area, the buttons allow you to switch on/off any freq'y so that it plays alone or accompanied by other freq's.

You need to switch off all other freq's and only allow the Blue Line _Mid bass freq's to be run through the compressor.


While music is playing (preferably at full volume) you'll hear the output of the freq'y as you adjust the middle band slider on the compressor...it will start at -12db - and go all the way to -130db.

Typically for the band of freq's you'll not need to go further than -20 depending on the type of music your listening to. Music such as Rock or Metal can have an edgy sound, but I've found some jazz and other types of music can be just as incoherent in that band as well.

The main purpose at this point is to pinpoint the time where the frequency starts to sound more coherent in output without distortion, basically the sound your hearing if it is distorted is what it will sound like in your vehicle multiplied by 10 if it is not properly damped, you can ruin decent speakers by allowing too much of this distortion from the back wave of the driver the reflect off the vehicles metal body and create unwanted resonances that don't sound too good, as well if you have more expensive drivers in the doors your not utilizing their full potential output due to the speakers rear wave distortion cancelling out the upper mid peaky frequencies.

-20db is an estimate at to where it will sound the least distorted, but if the music file has been mastered very hot, it will need to be reduced up to -30db -40db if required.

The next step is to adjust the Limiter threshold bar, this bar is located at the top of the meter graph. You can adjust varyingly, I find it mostly reduces the upper sound stage dispersion of that frequency, from what Ive learned... instead of getting a sound stage that is too dispersed with sparodic peaks in sound elements or small points, it squeezes them to a more coherent level where they'll be outputting at a more consistant output, this level of adjustment is mostly done on a level of choice or preference, but importantly it helps focus the sound stage inside the vehicle by reducing unwanted resonances that really cant be articulted well inside the door cavity.

At this point the sound from the frequencies will sound a bit like an AM station, but will not have any of the artifacts that will sound poorly inside the door cavity, its a real trade off... if your particular about music detail, but if music detail is what you'd like to Preserve then it would be recommended to utilize a rear chamber or speaker pod for the driver.

The fine detail you will be removing in the freq is sound that will be too distorted to be audible coherently. *Most particularly at very high volumes.*
*


* The next step is to move on to the Midrange Frequencies + Highs. Repeat the above steps by decreasing the db output of the midrange and high frequencies each.

* Note: During this process you will have the subwoofer output TURNED OFF, so you are only hearing the Midbass - Midrange- + High frequencies only. 

This will help get a better understanding on how the overall music will sound as a whole , which in turn will represent how your front Sound stage will sound like in the vehicle minus the harsh fine details and possible distortion that would be introduced by the original signal coupled to the doors cavity. As well you can hear how much clearer you Vehicles speaker / drivers will sound like with no Sub woofer playing in the car, which will be noticably clearer and cleaner.

The Midrange and High Frequencies might need to be reduced below -20db, as you'll find that those specific freq's can saturate the overall sound of the track, settings of -30db /-40db I find are normal, the specifics rely mostly on what you can articulate will translate inside your vehicle, and the type of music track that is being played.

Note: The original Characteristics of the cymbals - high hats - beat lines etc might be diluted compared to what the artists intended. The trade off is a more consistent output at any listening level, that reduces vehicle environmental factors.


You can then go back and adjust the Low Freq output if you feel it need be. I would only recommend it if you are using Subs in an IB free air type setup as I am in my vehicle.*

*Quick Notes: *

_This process allows :_

Peak Power output to be increased when the fine peaky music passages are removed from the signal. Allowing the Midbass driver to play more fully.

The Midbass Drivers will now have a better envelope to expand the sound without struggling to fight the rear reflective wave peaky frequencies with the original signal.

The horns will now have more coherent output that has little to no distortion when played back at higher volumes.


Note: Step 4 of the Tutorial is to introduce Harmonics (Exciter Plugin) that will re-introduce lost frequencies (do to increased compression scales) such as highs -midbass- and midrange output.





Please see the next process for the same Midband Freq down below.
*
Step #2.
*










* I'm just going to quickly elaborate on the Attack and release aspect of the band.

The above pic shows the Adjustment bars for tweaking the compressor attack and release time in ms. Both the the Limiter Delay and the compressor delay can be controlled.

Delay can be used when you want to soften any Harsh or punchy frequencies in the midband that can still persist, I've discovered that some Club / Dance music can have saturated Keyboards the just Grind into your drivers Unecessarily, this is because the artist mastered the sound on a pair of $20,000 mastering monitors that can handle the distorted output of the music keyboard track. The speakers in your vehicle are made well, but they are not inside an enclosure to dampen those peaky punchy freq's.

I start off by adding a bit of delay or increasing the attack time and decay time, until it softens the harmonics of the keyboard track or sound file in general, you'll find that after doing this, your actually creating a delay that pushes your speakers back acoustically so that the sound arrives at your ears more coherently, mostly though...it flattens it out...

Increasing the attack time + The delay time will spread out those sharp transients more evenly, thus improving the rear reflective damping of the driver and door cavity.

When I describe it as flatten - spread out, it would be similar to how the rear wave of the speaker will be dispersed , say you have a 2" wide frequency, its grip on the rear panel of the vehicle will only be 2" diameter, at 2" this is not enough grip to keep the driver from possibly over extending because the back wave is not the overall diameter of the driver itself, which happens to be 6 inches.

Increasing the attack and decay timing increases the rear wave diameter so that it follows the overall contours / diameter of the driver, after completing the delay, the sound output of the keyboard track now has closer to a 6 inch diameter sound output and possible even more due to the delay in the lower freq's still resonating. I would see the sound as being more evenly dispersed in the rear wave of the driver enveloping the rear wave with wider gripping freq's that extended beyond 6", the larger extension of the freq's the more feedback the rear door panel can give to the driver to Support it acoustically so that it can dampen the transients better.


*Note: This step is only necessary if you feel adjusting the compressor has not done enough to reduce peaky resonances. And should only be done if you feel you understand how the delay will translate inside the door cavity. As well delay can and does muffle the sound if done too much above 100ms for attach and obove 200ms for release, and I would only recomended it for subwoofer output only.
*
Subwoofer Attack / Delay:* I've found that adjusting the subwoofer output attack / Delay times allows the subwoofer to play closer to the front sound stage creating a delay effect if equally adjusted, this produces an effect that closely couples the subwoofers upper frequencies to the midbass driver in the front cabin area, supporting their overall output and sound stage 
characteristics.






At this point Its important to mention another specific about the software...It has the ability to tune the Mid & side channels (Stereo).

If your willing to go this far, tweaking the side channels elongates the sound stage and more evenly distributes it across the Dash. Improving the mid side balance in Relation to the Physical Location of the drivers coupled with the Horn Bodies. This can take some time to improve the overall balance, but when played back in the Vehicle Cabin can dramatically improve the overall Soundstage in the vehicle.

Step #3.










I would like to introduce and Discuss the Dynamic Eq Plugin Function of the software.


This Plugin has recently been developed by Izotope, as a way to EQ the moving frequencies in real time.

Basically I find that the plugin mimics what the voltage signal coming from the Rca's output would look like, as different frequencies travel along the signal chain they all have the tendancy to run into each other, this Plugin allows to carefully monitor they're relationship with the other frequencies so that they blend more specifically when there are acute changes in the audio signal during Transients etc.

This is the Most musical aspect of the plugin, say you'd like more midbass presence to help fill the front stage, some tracks don't seem to have enough Meat or flavor to accomplish this specific in the vehicle, adjusting the Mid Band Midbass Slider and increasing it allows you to fill that empty space that would otherwise disapear insde the confines of the dash or elsewhere.

* You'll notice now the Izotope has a moving graph line the follows the contour of your Q settings while the music is playing etc, there are 4 different kind of width settings.
*
Baxendal Bass* - This setting improves mild subbass presence, it does not acutely affect it, it is to add mild support to upper band Frequencies for tracks that have too sharp transients in the upper Midband areas.
*Band Shelf *- This setting can take Left and Right Channels and increase their out put simutaniously. Albeilt at the cost of stereo seperation.
*Peak Bell* - This settings keeps the stereo information in the freq's and can even increase the stereo effect, this works well for tracks that you'd like to keep that stereo separation for a particular band of freq's, but sometimes increasing them too much for the higher freq's can cause phasing issues left right blurring the soundstage.

https://youtu.be/1VWIEih_lKk?t=19


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## thehatedguy

I can't for the life of me understand exactly why you would want or need to do this.


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## P_4SPL

thehatedguy said:


> I can't for the life of me understand exactly why you would want or need to do this.


* Music IMO is not mastered very well, and inside a vehicle environment Horns, which are actually concert grade speakers, will tear your eardrums out before you find music that will play coherently with them.

If you've ever been to a concert, do you think they don't compress the horns or other drivers they use to play back the music?

If they don't use compression at concerts your ears will... and do bleed because of poor Audio Mastering in the audio booth...none the less most people don't have concerns with audio quality at concerts, because the speakers are too distant to be of a concern, in a vehicle though, the drivers are right in front of you, and have too many unwanted resonances.


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## thehatedguy

So how is this specific to horn installs?

Been to a lot of concerts and never had ears bleeding.

A compressor limits dynamics and dynamic peaks. Why would you want to do that...again, after they have been squashed all to hell in the mix?


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## P_4SPL

* I'm just going to quickly elaborate on the Attack and release aspect of the band.

The above pic shows the Adjustment bars for tweaking the compressor attack and release time in ms. Both the the Limiter Delay and the compressor delay can be controlled.

Delay can be used when you want to soften any Harsh or punchy frequencies in the midband that can still persist, I've discovered that some Club / Dance music can have saturated Keyboards the just Grind into your drivers Unecessarily, this is because the artist mastered the sound on a pair of $20,000 mastering monitors that can handle the distorted output of the music keyboard track. The speakers in your vehicle are made well, but they are not inside an enclosure to dampen those peaky punchy freq's.

I start off by adding a bit of delay or increasing the attack time and decay time, until it softens the harmonics of the keyboard track or sound file in general, you'll find that after doing this, your actually creating a delay that pushes your speakers back acoustically so that the sound arrives at your ears more coherently, mostly though...it flattens it out...

Increasing the attack time + The delay time will spread out those sharp transients more evenly, thus improving the rear reflective damping of the driver and door cavity.

When I describe it as flatten - spread out, it would be similar to how the rear wave of the speaker will be dispersed , say you have a 2" wide frequency, its grip on the rear panel of the vehicle will only be 2" diameter, at 2" this is not enough grip to keep the driver from possibly over extending because the back wave is not the overall diameter of the driver itself, which happens to be 6 inches.

Increasing the attack and decay timing increases the rear wave diameter so that it follows the overall contours / diameter of the driver, after completing the delay, the sound output of the keyboard track now has closer to a 6 inch diameter sound output and possible even more due to the delay in the lower freq's still resonating. I would see the sound as being more evenly dispersed in the rear wave of the driver enveloping the rear wave with wider gripping freq's that extended beyond 6", the larger extension of the freq's the more feedback the rear door panel can give to the driver to Support it acoustically so that it can dampen the transients better.


*Note: This step is only necessary if you feel adjusting the compressor has not done enough to reduce peaky resonances. And should only be done if you feel you understand how the delay will translate inside the door cavity.


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## Lycancatt

P_4SPL said:


> * Ok here's a track that I've reduced (Compressed) overall output of all freq's including the bass...the reason is I'm running Dual w7's in Free Air, so it helps them from using too much dispersion in the peaky freq's of bass output etc.
> 
> The track might have some sort of fine digital distortion due to the Conversion process from wav. to Video > to youtube etc...but the track has negligible simblance (other than the processed digital artifacts that sort of was introduced in the conversion process.)
> 
> * The overall output still remains at 0db Peak.
> 
> This track has been remastered, so I've done some teaks to the overall sound, but still aimed at keeping the sound to better suite the Vehicle Environment etc.
> 
> 
> 
> I was able to sneak this by youtube.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q_8-pBTP-I&feature=youtu.be
> 
> 
> *This is the original Track Unmastered ~ Its sounds Ok there are not many deficiency's in sound, but at louder volumes it might sound a bit dull.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmmqNppbEYg&feature=youtu.be
> 
> 
> * I've noticed that the track I've re-mastered has alot of fine distortion commpared to the original file, so I will have to re-upload some more tracks to better compare them.
> 
> I still can't upload a perfect file to youtube without youtube distorting the heck out of the file with processing, if anyone has any suggestions feel free to do so. * I'm not sure how other youtube uploaders are able to transfer perfect audio files that sound perfect, but other's are unable to ~ I'm sure the conversion process does alot of unecessary stuff to the file.



the original track is so much cleaner and better sounding then the abomination of it you've created..to each his own but I wish you'd just find music to be different as the artist intended it..like the rest of us, instead of applying bandaids that rip the skin of the music off leaving it raw and bad sounding to compensate for your peaky horns.

seriously this thread is completely full of bad advice except for post number 2, but I will admit your music taste is very good, perhaps that's why I'm so viament in my opinion of what you've decided to do with it.


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## P_4SPL

Lycancatt said:


> the original track is so much cleaner and better sounding then the abomination of it you've created..to each his own but I wish you'd just find music to be different as the artist intended it..like the rest of us, instead of applying bandaids that rip the skin of the music off leaving it raw and bad sounding to compensate for your peaky horns.
> 
> seriously this thread is completely full of bad advice except for post number 2, but I will admit your music taste is very good, perhaps that's why I'm so viament in my opinion of what you've decided to do with it.



* It does sound like crap, my encoding software Distorted the crap out of it when I ran it through my video editing software...it should have encoded it @ 48,000 khz but instead it did something more obtuse.

* I also think that when I increased the speed of the song it clipped it somehow, I had to do this so Youtube won't flag it as copyright when it is processed etc> I've I've heard is suggested.

I'll upload another file.


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## P_4SPL

I was able to convert the Audio Bit perfect this time so it should sound better.

Here is the original mp3 file ~ You'll notice the slightly harsh or crispy sound to the cymbals (call them that). 

https://youtu.be/i1fXV9FqXbk?t=30




Here is the Software processed file: @ 16bit 48Khz

Note: I haven't mentioned the benefits of Mastering mp3 to 16bit or even 24 bit as I'll mention this later in this post.

https://youtu.be/v_BOuOmOVMw?t=12


You'll notice that when playing back the Processed file, any angle you listen at will not have any critical harsh sound. You could say I depleted the character of the cymbals as intended by the artists, unfortunatley when they mix these on their expensive monitors, they are not concerned too much on how they will sound on a cheaper set of speakers etc, so they are free to crank the juice up anywhere to their liking benefiting them only.

With the original mp3 file the crispness is slightly more pronounced as well the bass is slightly more distorted, which when played back through a set of horns and subs will sound like ass.


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## Lycancatt

frequencies do not vary there width/dispursion because of attack or decay time, not even remotely. A frequencies wavelength is what it is no matter how its made and nothing we can do to change that.

I do pro audio for a living, I use horns and high power all day long, and rarely do I use a compressor on the main outputs, dynamics/real impact is why people go to a live show, well they do if they care about sound. Using a compressor to make it sound just like the cd is not a goal for 90 percent of live sound engineers.

also, all the distortion induced by the processes you've implemented make the track itself just unlistenable because now you have so much harmonics going on that your ears are more confused than when the track was originally recorded, which is exactly what you are claiming to limit.

horns do not push sound at our eardrums faster than it can process it, the speed of sound is a constant, except in different atmospheric pressures and temperatures, and none of thsese will effect you much in the relatively sealed environment of a car interior.

compression tends to make the music softer, it also brings up the low level imformation present in recordings, so if you say "freeair subs like compression because it reduces excursion and power usage" or something to that effect, explain how bringing up the noisefloor and perhaps rumble of a recording can reduce power usage?


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## Lycancatt

P_4SPL said:


> Here's another file that been processed with the Software.
> 
> I was able to convert the Audio Bit perfect this time so it should sound better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/v_BOuOmOVMw?t=22



please post a link to the original of this track if you can.


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## Lycancatt

why not use drop box public folder links to let us hear raw .wav files, there are folks here who will take time to download the original and your processed versions to hear the difference.

btw I'm listening on quested highend studio monitors that reveal everything, which could explain why I'm super critical of distortion/digital artifacting.


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## SQram

P_4SPL

Perhaps the fact that you are using a massive 2" throat compression driver mated to a 1" horn is the source of your problems, not the music.

I remember some of the non-sense you posted on canadiancaraudio.com back in the day, you should consider accepting some of the advise given on these forums, you'd be a lot further ahead.

ie: Tune your system, not the music...


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## P_4SPL

SQram said:


> P_4SPL
> 
> Perhaps the fact that you are using a massive 2" throat compression driver mated to a 1" horn is the source of your problems, not the music.
> 
> I remember some of the non-sense you posted on canadiancaraudio.com back in the day, you should consider accepting some of the advise given on these forums, you'd be a lot further ahead.
> 
> ie: Tune your system, not the music...


* My driver is actually a 3 inch diaphram coupled to a 2 inch Horn body, not sure why bringing up another forum has to do with this post. I suggest to move along and leave this post to some that might be interested in doing this with their music files.

* As well, the drivers in my vehicle do not suffer from any distortion or lack there off. And this tutorial is only for people who prefer to have a sound that isnt exhausting to the ears after hours of playback, on their horn drivers


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## P_4SPL

Lycancatt said:


> please post a link to the original of this track if you can.


The track Name is: Enea Dj - Kick It


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## thehatedguy

Your diaphrams should always be larger than the exit of the driver...otherwise it would be hard to have a compression driver.

I just don't know how you mated a 2" exit driver really successively to those horns.


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## P_4SPL

Lycancatt said:


> frequencies do not vary there width/dispursion because of attack or decay time, not even remotely. A frequencies wavelength is what it is no matter how its made and nothing we can do to change that.
> 
> I do pro audio for a living, I use horns and high power all day long, and rarely do I use a compressor on the main outputs, dynamics/real impact is why people go to a live show, well they do if they care about sound. Using a compressor to make it sound just like the cd is not a goal for 90 percent of live sound engineers.
> 
> also, all the distortion induced by the processes you've implemented make the track itself just unlistenable because now you have so much harmonics going on that your ears are more confused than when the track was originally recorded, which is exactly what you are claiming to limit.
> 
> horns do not push sound at our eardrums faster than it can process it, the speed of sound is a constant, except in different atmospheric pressures and temperatures, and none of thsese will effect you much in the relatively sealed environment of a car interior.
> 
> compression tends to make the music softer, it also brings up the low level imformation present in recordings, so if you say "freeair subs like compression because it reduces excursion and power usage" or something to that effect, explain how bringing up the noisefloor and perhaps rumble of a recording can reduce power usage?



* I agree compression will make the music sound softer, but in a vehicle environment such as the door cavity it will help improve the peak output of the driver including the horns. The peaky resonances that cant be individuated properly inside the door cavity will make the music sound worse than is necessary etc.

Adding Attack and release delay does help improve the overall ( I wold say grip of the driver,) although at the cost of reduced detail), which IMO is a trade off and Ive found to use it spareingly.

Im sure Sound Engineers at concerts have little concern to produce the music to sound like CD Im sure that what Live Concert sound is all about, the point is they still probably still need to compress their drivers because their too efficient and loud!


----------



## P_4SPL

Here is a pic of my Radian Driver. The Horn Driver dome is 3 inches coupled to a modified 2 inch exit chamber in the horn Body. (Veritas)

The driver itself is aluminum with Neodemium Magnet and heat sink, used in pro audio venues etc.


----------



## P_4SPL

thehatedguy said:


> So how is this specific to horn installs?
> 
> Been to a lot of concerts and never had ears bleeding.
> 
> A compressor limits dynamics and dynamic peaks. Why would you want to do that...again, after they have been squashed all to hell in the mix?


I agree, I would not want to do that in terms of keeping the articulate detail in the music it would ruin the track, in a Vehicle environment that articulate detail sometimes is not translated well in the vehicle door cavity and distortion can be mostly audible. This is due to the speaker not being able to respond quickly enough to the transients (fine detail) in the track, due to improper loading inside the door cavity to keep the resonance low.

Ive installed some of these in the doors.








They help remove that Muddy sound to vocals.


----------



## Lycancatt

is that a radion model 450pn? if so, its a fine driver and a good choice for horns, but that mounting scheme sounds fishy to me, cant see the pics just going off what you describe. the radion 450 is a 1 exit driver, so unless you have something like the model 950..which imo would not be usefull at all in a car, I don't see how it mates to a two inch throat.


----------



## P_4SPL

Lycancatt said:


> why not use drop box public folder links to let us hear raw .wav files, there are folks here who will take time to download the original and your processed versions to hear the difference.
> 
> btw I'm listening on quested highend studio monitors that reveal everything, which could explain why I'm super critical of distortion/digital artifacting.


Ive used dropbox before, though I stopped using it when my computer froze with a virus etc.

The files I have posted on youtube are close to the original files I have on my PC. But I can agree there is some minute artifacts possibly due to youtube processing.

Will a Zip file work.


----------



## P_4SPL

Lycancatt said:


> is that a radion model 450pn? if so, its a fine driver and a good choice for horns, but that mounting scheme sounds fishy to me, cant see the pics just going off what you describe. the radion 450 is a 1 exit driver, so unless you have something like the model 950..which imo would not be usefull at all in a car, I don't see how it mates to a two inch throat.


Its the 950 Model.









I went with this model because it matches the interior of the vehicle, and hides blends with the interior of the cabin.


----------



## SQram

P_4SPL said:


> * My driver is actually a 3 inch diaphram coupled to a 2 inch Horn body, not sure why bringing up another forum has to do with this post. I suggest to move along and leave this post to some that might be interested in doing this with their music files.
> 
> * As well, the drivers in my vehicle do not suffer from any distortion or lack there off. And this tutorial is only for people who prefer to have a sound that isnt exhausting to the ears after hours of playback, on their horn drivers



Your 950PB has a 4" diaphram. It's playing through a 1" throat on the horn.

Again, misinformation...


----------



## P_4SPL

SQram said:


> Your 950PB has a 4" diaphram. It's playing through a 1" throat on the horn.
> 
> Again, misinformation...



Its a 2 inch exit coupled to a modified Veritas horn body.


----------



## mikey7182

You're going through and "remastering" your music library to make it sound better through horns, rather than tuning your setup? Or did I miss something? 

Anyone who has sat in my Passat, or a dozen other great horn cars would not use the word harsh to describe any aspect of the listening experience; however, I have heard plenty of horn installs (including some of my own) that were unpleasant to listen to and it was related to install and tune, not recording quality. Not sure what you're trying to achieve here.


----------



## SQram

P_4SPL said:


> Its a 2 inch exit coupled to a modified Veritas horn body.


And more than likely the root of your problems...


----------



## P_4SPL

The purpose of the tutorial is to improve the overall sound inside the vehicle cabin using software to Re-master the music track, I'm sure most music tracks will sound OK in Vehicles with horns ...if... they're mastered well, I don't have the luxury of playing music thats been mastered well, since most music that is mastered well is not the type I prefer to listen to anyways.

The entire point of this post is to release the necessity of spending hours and days trying to tune a horn or (Ib Driver system) to sound well to the type of music you listen to including RAP + Club + Dance Hip-Hop etc, its basically for the people who are still unsure if they're systems have reached their full potential, and don't want to implement drastic measures such as door pods to improve the system performance etc. Which = more $$ spent.

* I'd also like to note that: I don't listen to thousands of songs, creating a playlist that exceeds beyond 100 can exceed the time it takes to listen to it in the car, while traveling etc.

The tutorial is for people who enjoy kicking back and playing tracks that have audible immersion that goes beyond the 5-15 minutes travel time. Its for creating tracks that can be played back at full volume for extended periods without Acoustic fatigue. It's why people put stereos in their vehicles, but there are a small bunch I'm sure that enjoy that extra effort to make the music sound good. Putting a driver in a metal cabinet in itself is creating issues in itself due to the physical property of the displacement surface behind the driver. Something akin to attempting to launch a rocket into space utilzing rubber propulsion systems. Box / enclosure or Jet fuel only.

I'm not an audiophile but I enjoy listening to music now and then, in the past the sacrifices where little because of better mastered music ~One example would be tracks from some older Techno CD I used to own, in fact any CD before 2000 was mastered very well with excellent acoustics in the vehicle regardless of what type of speakers you where using, this phenomenom of using a limiter + Compressed mp3 files on a music track has reduced the headroom and variable-ness (?) of the overall sound.

I'm sure install is the best place to start for some people to fix acoustic issues in the vehicle, and that is the ONLY way it should be done. I'm sure there are installers here, that can say they've done systems that have have sounded exceptionally well, and I agree it is achievable, what is not achievable is how the source material sounds, MP3 sounds like crap in Vehicles IMO, it sounds OK in Home Theater systems, but...I don't see popping in an Mp3 track and playing it back through my Morels - Veritas / Radians 950B's and W7's + RF amps and hope it sounds good, it will NEVER sound good, your ears have been acustomed to loud distorted music from MP3 files, I agree not all mp3 files sound bad, but...if you've heard the Headroom difference between a compressed mp3 and a 24bit file it will amuse you to what you've missed in your system which equates to overall output!


----------



## Lycancatt

.zip is ok if emailed, dropbox would make your files more public in the sense that others besides myself may like to hear the differences you've created


----------



## P_4SPL

SQram said:


> And more than likely the root of your problems...


No issues at all with the setup.


----------



## P_4SPL

Lycancatt said:


> .zip is ok if emailed, dropbox would make your files more public in the sense that others besides myself may like to hear the differences you've created


If you can wait a little longer I can upload tracks that where originally mp3 and show you how Izotopes software increased the headroom of the tracks to 24 bit. Since your using Studio Quality monitors etc.

I still have to find a file format that I can upload, I might use my Mac and use its dropbox version possibly, assuming it wont get any viruses which is my main concern ( I had to go into safe mode to remove the virus from my system on my windows PC which was linked to my dropbox account)

I can only playback 16 bit CD in my Vehicle and I've found that Mastering (mp3 Files) at 24 bit then exporting it at 16bit keeps that Large Headroom acoustics characteristics of a 24 bit signal inside a 16bit interface. It a phenomenom I would describe as 24 bit Holographic effect.

24 bit allows you to Squeeze in tons of extra harmonics / freq's and overall output of the signal without distorting it. That is Re-mastering the overall track, but it's a better tradeoff than standard mp3 files.

I will be posting this in this tutorial as well for those who would like to switch from mp3 music files to 16 / 24bit. Something not related to install.

I would also like to mention that the Music File I've posted on youtube are not really Re-mastered to sound better than the original, that would mean an increase in the saturated output of my drivers with too much fine detail that the drivers wont produce faithfully, the tracks are just re-mastered to sound smoother and mellower with acoustics that bloom inside the veihcle cabinet with minimal peaky reflections inside the door cavity.

*Again this tutorial is for people who have decent systems installed and would not mind taking the extra effort to Remaster tracks to sound exceptionally better than the original song in their vehicle. In terms of better it would equate to: Transients...Bloom...output...soundstage depth...width...warmth...impact.*


----------



## SQram

P_4SPL said:


> *I've learned alot about Waveguides / horns and have found that no matter how you passively treat them to reduce their resonances they can still sound very harsh.





P_4SPL said:


> No issues at all with the setup.


You can't be serious...?


----------



## thehatedguy

No, there could be a lot wrong with the drivers on those horns.

How have you gone from 2" to 1"? It's damned near impossible to do correctly. A 1.4 or 1.5" exit driver is easier to do and Veritas had a model that had a 1.5" exit driver on them...they sold those adapters.

But a 2" driver...dunno about that based on my own experience. The 950 is a great driver, but getting it right on those horns is what I am questioning.


----------



## P_4SPL

mikey7182 said:


> You're going through and "remastering" your music library to make it sound better through horns, rather than tuning your setup? Or did I miss something?
> 
> Anyone who has sat in my Passat, or a dozen other great horn cars would not use the word harsh to describe any aspect of the listening experience; however, I have heard plenty of horn installs (including some of my own) that were unpleasant to listen to and it was related to install and tune, not recording quality. Not sure what you're trying to achieve here.


* I would more describe they're issues as Nasal sounding, although I agree horns when eq'd / done correctly will and do sound very good. The principles are they have to reflect off a large surface area for them to properly fill the cabin with sound, dashes need to be a proper extension of the horn body's to transfer the sound up to the listener.

* Mastering an entire Music Library is not always an exception most people will make, I agree when you play a track it should sound good on the system whether horns or tweeters etc, there are no excuses for music that sounds bad in a vehicle with good drivers and equipment etc, and it seems that most people on here are not encouraged by the fact someone's attempts to solve install issues in a vehicle using software to re-master the music itself.

* The tutorial in not for Install related issues, the main issue is poorly recorded music. And how it affects the response of your drivers in the vehicle etc.


Does anyone have any examples as to what music the'ye played back in their install that sounded bad.


----------



## thehatedguy

Good music always sounded good and bad mixed music always sounded bad...the speakers reproduced what they were supposed to how they were supposed to.


----------



## P_4SPL

thehatedguy said:


> No, there could be a lot wrong with the drivers on those horns.
> 
> How have you gone from 2" to 1"? It's damned near impossible to do correctly. A 1.4 or 1.5" exit driver is easier to do and Veritas had a model that had a 1.5" exit driver on them...they sold those adapters.
> 
> But a 2" driver...dunno about that based on my own experience. The 950 is a great driver, but getting it right on those horns is what I am questioning.



It was a bit of a trick to shave out the opening of the Veritas horn body to better match the 2" exit of the 950B driver. They're great drivers for what they are. They can be crossed down to 800hz. But at that freq's they become to directional and nasal sounding I keep them at around 1.2khz.


----------



## P_4SPL

thehatedguy said:


> Good music always sounded good and bad mixed music always sounded bad...the speakers reproduced what they were supposed to how they were supposed to.


Thats true and music that is done well does not always play back to the original specifications inside a metal cavity. Be it horn cavity or Speaker cavity etc.


----------



## mikey7182

You keep mentioning MP3 files... So you're taking music that you know is compressed, and trying to use software to reverse the effects of the compression, at least to the extent that the tracks sound better through horns? Why not just play the original uncompressed file/track? What you're describing isn't an inherent issue with horns; you're playing a ****ty file that's been compressed to hell. That has nothing to do with how it was mastered originally. Granted, we've all complained about how recording quality in general has decayed over the years, but it seems odd to start off with tracks you know have been defiled and then position your thread as some solution to something that is wrong with HLCD... hard drive space is super cheap these days, and just about every head unit has a USB input. I listen to and own tons of music that would hardly be considered masterfully recorded- Slipknot, Tool, Chevelle, Incubus. They still sound phenomenal in my car though, and without fatigue. They are all original albums on my phone or my iPod, so nothing is a downloaded mp3 that has been compressed. I'm not trying to knock your alternative workaround to file compression; it just seems a bit unnecessary.


----------



## thehatedguy

You are completely wasting the performance of a large format compression driver crossing it at 1.2k. A large driver like that is supposed to be used with a tweeter, not used as a tweeter.

You've made the lack of treble from that driver worse by putting it on adapters that are geometrically wrong- the wavefront will never realign properly and you will get a lot of cancelation of those frequencies.


----------



## P_4SPL

mikey7182 said:


> You keep mentioning MP3 files... So you're taking music that you know is compressed, and trying to use software to reverse the effects of the compression, at least to the extent that the tracks sound better through horns? Why not just play the original uncompressed file/track? What you're describing isn't an inherent issue with horns; you're playing a ****ty file that's been compressed to hell. That has nothing to do with how it was mastered originally. Granted, we've all complained about how recording quality in general has decayed over the years, but it seems odd to start off with tracks you know have been defiled and then position your thread as some solution to something that is wrong with HLCD... hard drive space is super cheap these days, and just about every head unit has a USB input. I listen to and own tons of music that would hardly be considered masterfully recorded- Slipknot, Tool, Chevelle, Incubus. They still sound phenomenal in my car though, and without fatigue. They are all original albums on my phone or my iPod, so nothing is a downloaded mp3 that has been compressed. I'm not trying to knock your alternative workaround to file compression; it just seems a bit unnecessary.



* I agree it seems somewhat Prejudice to use mp3 files as a base to remaster AUDIO TRACKS that sound better considering the original was already compressed.

The trick is, from what I understand, is that mp3 compression reduces the excitation of peaks of all freq's, I find that carefully re-introducing excitation into the tracks helps create the original essence of the track as it was in 16 or 24 bit resolution. Practically mimicking a Lossless uncompressed file (acoustically). Although more time is required to tweak the track to a more MUSICAL LEVEL. they key is how musical it will sound, most engineers are not too concerned with how musical a track will sound, rather mostly concerned with it's logistics.


The setback is that out of thousands of tracks that might interest someone, 90% of those tracks will not have the appearance of a good recording due to quick turnover required to record those tracks now days. I'm sure the above bands you mentioned sound great in your car, and it's really each individuals opinion on what sounds good or not in their vehicle. 

I don't listen to mainstream artists, my choices and tastes in music are limited in terms of quality. This limited choice and lack of High Res files presses people like me to look for alternative solutions to quality music playback.


----------



## P_4SPL

thehatedguy said:


> You are completely wasting the performance of a large format compression driver crossing it at 1.2k. A large driver like that is supposed to be used with a tweeter, not used as a tweeter.
> 
> You've made the lack of treble from that driver worse by putting it on adapters that are geometrically wrong- the wavefront will never realign properly and you will get a lot of cancelation of those frequencies.



* I have found absolutely no issues with the driver coupled to the horn body, I can get up 16khz , where 20khz is more felt than heard due to the horns grill cover. Which IMO is more than enough range.

I specifically chose the 950B drivers because they blend in the cabin cosmetically better. The magnets have a better rounding than the original Veritas magnets that came with the horn body's. Which mostly resembled rather odd looking dome shaped magnets.

I spoke with the engineer that Made the 950B magnets lol....I asked him what the specifics where for the flared ends of the magnets, he stated it was inspired / taken off a Harley Davidson Exhaust design on certain model of harley Bikes. I assume it was a basis on how to couple cooling on the magnet due to its power requirements... although I've never seen heatsinks used on too many horn drivers.


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## thehatedguy

The 745s look the same, but are 1.4" exit...which means they will have better treble and adapters for your horns could be made right.


----------



## P_4SPL

thehatedguy said:


> The 745s look the same, but are 1.4" exit...which means they will have better treble and adapters for your horns could be made right.



They're great drivers, unfortunatley I went with the 950B specifically because I could paint the entire Magnet structures. the 745 have the magnets exposed. Which would not look too well if painted.


----------



## SQram

P_4SPL said:


> They're great drivers, unfortunatley I went with the 950B specifically because I could paint the entire Magnet structures. the 745 have the magnets exposed. Which would not look too well if painted.


This was your first mistake, you bought the wrong driver for this application due to visual aesthetics, and now you are remastering your music as a band aid. 

When you enlarged the opening of the Veritas adapter, you'd have to machine (enlarge/align) the 45 degree reflector inside the throat to achieve the proper entry into the horn (as hatedguy is alluding to). If you didn't enlarge the reflector, you'd going to have all sorts of unwanted reflections inside the horn (see HOMSTER thread).

I have a pair of Veritas horns here that I've used off and on for the better part of 15 years. I've never experienced any of the problems you're explaining here. There's a passive response compensator circuit that has been posted here that would help the irregular response you describe, that would be a step in the right direction (along with a 1"/1.4" compression driver). The B&C DE500 compression driver has a similar look to the Radian 950PB if you're dead set on staring at them while listening to music.


----------



## jnchantler

Usually I would never post a negative comment against another member and I haven't to date. But I must say this thread is so full of crap it's amusing to read. I really don't think you should be spreading your misconceptions and the results of your inability to install or set up a system in a car.

This forum is a place where new people who have the itch can come and learn from some very experienced people. It should not be full of incorrect information that will lead them down the wrong path. Personally I think this thread should be closed.

My apologies for my abruptness, this one got on my nerves.


----------



## P_4SPL

This thread is not about scientific specifics , it's simply a way and means to digitally improve your musical listening experience in your vehicle, we can talk about horns / drivers Specs / install techniques for years and possibly never reach an agreement.

What the post is mostly about is after the install is complete, sometimes when you relate to horn body's they can sound excessive in one way or another as some would agree, nothing you do to the install itself will improve their dispersion pattern or sound stage as with any horns when you play them loud they can get excessive, my horns sound fine, when nicely Mastered Music is played through them, the trouble is that the source that drives the speakers can be lets put it more about the Logistics of the Record Label than the actual* "user experience"*. Which are Two Hugely different aspects when relating them to how we experience their music.

I would say the Tutorial is more aimed at people who have completed their install, and would like to be more immersed in their taste in music. Without having to mod or upgrade their system.

The real issues lies on what the structure is behind the door panel. And I'm sure that there are plenty of Modern Vehicles that might not suffer the same acoustic fatigue that some Vehicles can Exhibit.

It is absolute that install is the most important factor in any install, and do not recommend this unless you have exhausted all other means of the Install.


----------



## P_4SPL

SQram said:


> The B&C DE500 compression driver has a similar look to the Radian 950PB if you're dead set on staring at them while listening to music.


I'm not sure what you mean by staring at them, I agree the exit flange on the driver might not specifically be acutely matched to the driver, though the actual response output is insignificant IMO.

I also have to repeat that this Thread is not about technical issues encountered in the installation of Horns.

Stressing that this technique is a bandaid solution to an install problem is actually mostly a solution to a Logistical problem in the music industry, where by the Engineers follow the protocall's of what the Record Labels want them to create. Which in turn becomes a user experience band-aid that we can neglect.


----------



## thehatedguy

But the trick to making horns sound good is easy- a good driver on a good horn mated to the interior properly, and then tuning.

SQRam and I have known each other for like, over 15 years or so? He still uses Veritas horns, I have owned a few sets of them and like them...I was sponsored by Image Dynamics in 01- till Eric left. I've had Eric personally tune my car a half dozen times or more over the years. And I think the both of us are a bit more than confused as to what you are doing and why.

I am not getting your reasoning or rationale in terms of "fixing" these problems, as I think he and I probably agree that we've never heard what you are hearing...much less thinking adding compression is a way to fix it.

Hell, most people wanted to add expanders to gain dynamics...not squish them.


----------



## thehatedguy

I think SQRam was saying you choose the 950s over something ore suitable like the 745s or the DE500s solely on looks and how they look in the interior of the car.

But a 2" driver on those factory Veritas adapters isn't going to work right at all. The Radians have decent treble for a 2" driver, though nothing as good as a smaller exit driver has. And crossing them at 1.2k COMPLETELY IMO negates any benefits of using a large format driver as they have a much more realistic powerful midrange down low.

So he is saying, you could have a driver like the DE500 that looks good and would be a better driver on those horns than what you have.


----------



## SQram

thehatedguy said:


> But the trick to making horns sound good is easy- a good driver on a good horn mated to the interior properly, and then tuning.
> 
> SQRam and I have known each other for like, over 15 years or so? He still uses Veritas horns, I have owned a few sets of them and like them...I was sponsored by Image Dynamics in 01- till Eric left. I've had Eric personally tune my car a half dozen times or more over the years. And I think the both of us are a bit more than confused as to what you are doing and why.
> 
> I am not getting your reasoning or rationale in terms of "fixing" these problems, as I think he and I probably agree that we've never heard what you are hearing...much less thinking adding compression is a way to fix it.
> 
> Hell, most people wanted to add expanders to gain dynamics...not squish them.


Nahh, I've been using the Illusion horn the last few years...

We've been on these boards wayy too long, I think that's why I take exception to this post. I've learned a lot over the years from the forums, so it kills me to see crap like this posted.

Anyways...more important things in life to worry about...


----------



## P_4SPL

thehatedguy said:


> I think SQRam was saying you choose the 950s over something ore suitable like the 745s or the DE500s solely on looks and how they look in the interior of the car.
> 
> But a 2" driver on those factory Veritas adapters isn't going to work right at all. The Radians have decent treble for a 2" driver, though nothing as good as a smaller exit driver has. And crossing them at 1.2k COMPLETELY IMO negates any benefits of using a large format driver as they have a much more realistic powerful midrange down low.
> 
> So he is saying, you could have a driver like the DE500 that looks good and would be a better driver on those horns than what you have.


*For me it was really a trade off in terms of cosmetics, would installing the 745 or DE500 improve my overall sound, yes, I believe their smaller size will better acutey match the shape of the veritas horn bodies...will the 950B degrade the overall sound of the horn body absolutly not in terms of fine specifics .....more specifically the large diameter dome on the 950B IMO helps to better control the lower transients in the horns output, which means less cone breakup at higher volumes, again the trade off is minimal, and im sure the above mentioned drivers will work wonderfully with my setup with a finer degree of accuracy, my main reason for chosing the 950B was 1. Cosmetics, 2. sustainable sound or better low x-over reliability. Again this post is really not about makeing a bad horn install sound good with software.

Its really about the Logistics of music mastering itself, its not mastered to 1. Sound well on a stereo setup, engineers have a protocol to follow, meaning they need to create a Tone the record labels require to play back on TONS of tiny little stereo speakers, audiophiles are not in the mix when you relate what their requirements are.

Any music that has ever been mastered has been mastered to fit the Horizontal plane of the listener, that is all, the width of the sound is determined by what the Artist requires. This Formula does not always fit well in a Vehicle environment where there is now the sub-vertical plane, simply put, most music could sound like ass in alot of vehicles, excluding power capabilities which do nothing to preserve or more create a soundstage inside the vehicle cabinet.

This post is about creating a music ambiance that artists and record labels Neglect, which for one example would be a thinner sound to certain tracks, the thinner sound of the track reduces the capabilities of your expensive equipment, but I must agree that there are tracks that provide those characters without effort, the software IMO helps add MEAT to the music, it adds more substance, and keeps it from sounding bloated but as well keeps it from sounding anemic.

The real argument here is do mp3 files sound tolerable on a pair of horns, I do not think so, Im sure some would disagree and when we come to the blind tests of which could sound better, the - if a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear question arises, if you cant hear what a 16 bit audio file sounds like in relation to mp3 you will probably never hear it. Most of us already know the relations of 16 bit audio so there is not much need to question the differences . Horns have a huge capability to provide an amazing deep and wide soundstage in a vehicle, its a tool that can and does improve the musical tempo - ambiance , dynamics, soundstage and depth of the music, they have the capabilties to immerse the listener, something that most mp3 files lack. 


To accept the Artists terms of their recording is similar to accepting a 16:9 image thats been formated with letter boxes on the top and bottom. Is the artist - filmaker correct for what he intended, Im sure he is for his own requirments, nothing to do with what the listerner or viewers requirements are.


----------



## subwoofery

Use a driver suited to your horn body. 
Install them following the general horn install rules 
Tune 

Done... It doesn't have to be this complicated. 

Kelvin


----------



## P_4SPL

subwoofery said:


> Use a driver suited to your horn body.
> Install them following the general horn install rules
> Tune
> 
> Done... It doesn't have to be this complicated.
> 
> Kelvin


It really already done, there is really no need to further complicate my project, what really complicates it (my project) is the Artists view on what their music should sound like which IMO has nothing to do with a music listeners experience in their vehicle _ Do artists master music for a vehicle environmenr? I highly doubt it. All the distorted and thin sounding music Destroys equipment. Does it makes sense to you to use expensive equipment (Morel Supremo woofer @ $1,300 a pair) and playback poorly mastered mp3 music? I highly doubt it. That is why I'm here to provide a tutorial that reduces the poor results one can have from playing back poorly mastered audio on their Expensive equipment.

It's more like an Eq / expander, para quasi device you dont need to install in your car, as some people on here have actually contemplated. There is really no need for those options, its much much simpler, although slightly time consuming only, benefited when you enter your vehicle.

I'm sure as mentioned above the true issue is: is there an acceptance to what the Record labels distribute, from what it seems it usually is. To each his own opinion, I'm sure not everyone is an audiphilic. Or freindly with their audio experience. Truly this post is more about SQIE Sound Qaulity Immersive Experience, If such a term is required to explain.


----------



## thehatedguy

But a 1200 hertz XO point isn't THAT low, especially for those larger horns where traditionally you would run them an octave lower...with a 1" exit driver, or with some mods a 1.4/1.5" exit driver. 

You are going to have diaphragm break up in the treble, and the 2" exit is going to put a big notch/notches in the treble just from destructive interference. AND you don't have a proper reflector for the wave front to realign properly...so that is going to cause notches in the response and hurt the HF output.

I agree with the larger driver having better lowend power, and the 950 is a great 2" driver...but as a whole, the system you have has problems.

I'm not exactly sure of what the problem is you are trying to fix...much less understanding why. I haven't ever heard or experienced what you are talking about.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I don't think anyone has^.

He kept saying that because mp3's have a lower bit rate, that they are quieter than cds, which sounds bad and damages equipment. None of which is true. 

Now he's saying that artists don't master for the car. Of course they dont, few people really care what music sounds like in a car. But it doesn't matter. A good system will make music that sounds good at home, sound good in a car.

And on top of that, he's saying bad mastering ruins equipment, again not true. Ruined equipment is almost always user error, unless something just fails.



As everyone else has said, it seems he's trying to fix something with mastering/processing tricks that doesn't need to be fixed, instead of fixing the install, which does need to be fixed.


----------



## SkizeR

honestly, i think this whole thread should be deleted to stop the spread of that misinformation. theres to much of that going around already


----------



## P_4SPL

* I think I should request to move this post to Tricks and tips section, It been a bit of misunderstanding as to what my post is trying to introduce.

My horns are x-over at 1.2 because any lower and the horns become too localized (not distorted or break up) when they become localized I have to use a para eq to remove that localization which in turn smears how they blend in with my midwoofer drivers etc.

*I'm glad to see people still using horns nowadays, and seems that there are alot of installers on here that can help people with proper installation of them.

I'm going to repost this Tutoria elsewhere in this forum, as I feel it is an important aspect in terms of (tricks) to make the install sound better.

I'm sure there are people who think and feel mp3 is good enough, I guess I'll leave it at that on here.


----------



## cajunner

please do not repost this "tutorial" as it is.

the novel concept of making your music fit the stereo system, is not a widely accepted method to achieve anything remotely resembling sound quality objectives.

being generous, you may find some aspect of a recording that you "fixed" with application of some mastering/volume limiting/compression techniques, as being superior (in your mind) but as a method, as a way to treat your musical library?

no.

The problem here is not the lack of enthusiasm, or the spirit of innovative thinking. I feel it is a lack of education about acoustics, not an overabundance of it, that would lead one to put the cart, before the audio horse.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

In other words, don't mess with your music to make it sound good on your car stereo, mess with your car stereo to make your music sound good. Anything you do to your music to make it sound good in YOUR car would likely make it sound like crap in any OTHER car.


And your mistaken if you think bad mastering is due to mp3 formats. Bad mastering started years before the mp3 format existed.


----------



## SQram

P_4SPL said:


> * I think I should request to move this post to Tricks and tips section, It been a bit of misunderstanding as to what my post is trying to introduce.


Do not repost this anywhere, or in any forum. This is the second forum you've posted on and in both cases there hasn't been a single person that has even slightly agreed with what you are doing.

At some point you need to take a step back and think, "maybe the other 99% are right, I should try a different approach".

Several people including myself have offered ways to help you make your music sound better, you've ignored every one of them (much like people should avoid your tutorial).


----------



## P_4SPL

SQram said:


> Do not repost this anywhere, or in any forum. This is the second forum you've posted on and in both cases there hasn't been a single person that has even slightly agreed with what you are doing.
> 
> At some point you need to take a step back and think, "maybe the other 99% are right, I should try a different approach".
> 
> Several people including myself have offered ways to help you make your music sound better, you've ignored every one of them (much like people should avoid your tutorial).


*There are people on this forum that are indeed interested in pursuing this*. You seem to neglect anything you do not understand ONLY to make yourself feel superior to what you dont understand.

* Its non-sense so stop trying to attack a simple post to make yourselves feel superior to prove something.

I'm sure your looking forward to tending to the next simplton with your view that doesn't object to your views. 

* I've already mentioned this in the Horns Pics section and people have asked about software to make this work, 1 year ago I was using much simpler software, but new better software has become available, and I feel there are people that would be interested in persuing this.

If you feel blaring mids and highs sound good to you great . Good luck.


----------



## SkizeR

P_4SPL said:


> There are people on this forum that are indeed interested in pursuing this. You seem to neglect anything you do not understand ONLY to make yourself feel superior to what you dont understand. Which means your a creature of personal comfort.
> 
> * Its non-sense so stop trying to attack a simple post to make yourselves feel superior to prove something.
> 
> I'm sure your looking forward to tending to the next simplton to your view that doesn't object to you views. Good luck.


messing with your music instead of getting the setup dialed shouldnt be an interest for anyone on this forum.. jus sayin


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

P_4SPL said:


> *There are people on this forum that are indeed interested in pursuing this*. You seem to neglect anything you do not understand ONLY to make yourself feel superior to what you dont understand.
> 
> * Its non-sense so stop trying to attack a simple post to make yourselves feel superior to prove something.
> 
> I'm sure your looking forward to tending to the next simplton with your view that doesn't object to your views.
> 
> * I've already mentioned this in the Horns Pics section and people have asked about software to make this work, 1 year ago I was using much simpler software, but new better software has become available, and I feel there are people that would be interested in persuing this.
> 
> If you feel blaring mids and highs sound good to you great . Good luck.


Blaring mids and highs are caused by poor install and tune. I've heard many horn cars that sounded great, and none of them needed to screw with their music to do it. 


Your doing it backwards.


----------



## P_4SPL

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Blaring mids and highs are caused by poor install and tune. I've heard many horn cars that sounded great, and none of them needed to screw with their music to do it.
> 
> 
> Your doing it backwards.


Screwing with the music brings more than what is available, I'm not implying most systems will sound bad, but just that music can significantly be improved so the sound is more immersive. There really is no going back if you have the patience to do it.


----------



## SQram

P_4SPL said:


> *There are people on this forum that are indeed interested in pursuing this*. You seem to neglect anything you do not understand ONLY to make yourself feel superior to what you dont understand.
> 
> * Its non-sense so stop trying to attack a simple post to make yourselves feel superior to prove something.
> 
> I'm sure your looking forward to tending to the next simplton with your view that doesn't object to your views.
> 
> * I've already mentioned this in the Horns Pics section and people have asked about software to make this work, 1 year ago I was using much simpler software, but new better software has become available, and I feel there are people that would be interested in persuing this.
> 
> If you feel blaring mids and highs sound good to you great . Good luck.


My apologies, you're right! *One* person replied to your comments in the other thread, probably because he/she was trying to figure out what the hell you are talking about.

I've tried offering you help, I'll try again: Read Hanatsu's post "First timers guide to measuring your system". It works. If you follow his steps, you'll probably hear **** that will blow your mind *ON EVERY SONG*.


----------



## thehatedguy

Is there any good tracks that I could listen to with my headphones pre and post changing?


----------



## P_4SPL

thehatedguy said:


> Is there any good tracks that I could listen to with my headphones pre and post changing?



If you mean do I have any songs that have been re-done for the vehicle, I have uploaded 2 songs onto youtube, 1 is the mp3 version the other is a 16bit re-done with the software. Although youtube could add fine distortion during the upload etc.

I've thought about uploading on here via drop box...but I'm not sure how to do that, if someone can point me on how, I will use my Mac to post it here , since my windows 7 machine succumbed to a virus related to the dropbox folder.

* To sum it up if your an enthusiast, (not really an audiophile) but similar you'll be suprised at what the software can do to improve the sound with minimal distortion. *if your picky and carefull you can make it sound Lossless with minimal distortion. There are some youtube videos with tracks that are called remastered, and they sound great. (Like they should)

I've used the software to redo alot of older 80's music and it's incredible what can be acheived to your liking.

I'll try and post some tracks I've redone.


----------



## thehatedguy

I have heard rumors in the competition world (when I was part of it) that a few cars had some stuff going on behind the scenes in terms of real time adjustments...some cars had processors that could do "tuning" on a per track basis based on presets in the processor coupled to SMPTE time codes/labels. 

Which that could be easy (lol) if you were being judged or giving demos from a known disk. Which was the reason why (at least then) you had to play the material from the organization's disk...you could not (then) use a ripped copy. But that maybe different (could be similar) to what we are talking about here.

Potentially you could change the source material to work around the problems faced in the car. Maybe you could do that. Maybe that is what we are talking about here in some way?

It is interesting and not really feasible for most folks...and definitely flies in the face of a purist approach.

But I still think there are problems with those horns and the drivers on them.


----------



## Lou Frasier2

thehatedguy said:


> So how is this specific to horn installs?
> 
> Been to a lot of concerts and never had ears bleeding.
> 
> A compressor limits dynamics and dynamic peaks. Why would you want to do that...again, after they have been squashed all to hell in the mix?


ive been to concerts and have had nosebleeds busted lips black eyes,but they were caused by violent moshpitting,oh how i miss those days sometimes


----------



## P_4SPL

thehatedguy said:


> I have heard rumors in the competition world (when I was part of it) that a few cars had some stuff going on behind the scenes in terms of real time adjustments...some cars had processors that could do "tuning" on a per track basis based on presets in the processor coupled to SMPTE time codes/labels.
> 
> Which that could be easy (lol) if you were being judged or giving demos from a known disk. Which was the reason why (at least then) you had to play the material from the organization's disk...you could not (then) use a ripped copy. But that maybe different (could be similar) to what we are talking about here.
> 
> Potentially you could change the source material to work around the problems faced in the car. Maybe you could do that. Maybe that is what we are talking about here in some way?
> 
> It is interesting and not really feasible for most folks...and definitely flies in the face of a purist approach.
> 
> But I still think there are problems with those horns and the drivers on them.


Interesting to hear in competitions it was rumored they used specific test tracks to get points with the judges, if they where able to pull that off then they would most likely score considerable more points, obviously it flies in the face of an every day user who wouldn't be concerned with such things. An Audiophile could say , I enjoy the mellow low sound of that Jazz track, with the software you can now add some meat...without ruining the actual signal! Unless you run it through the limiter and destroy the fluffy dynamics etc.

* Basically yes you can change how the acoustics will translate in the vehicle, and use it as a demo, some could use a PC hooked up to the vehicle and toy around with the software to sound good in the vehicle, if that's your thing. It's something that has not been too available in the last few years, and from what I understand izotopes latest Ozone 6 pro was just only recently released.

You would be suprised at the subtle but meatier difference a 24bit track can sound, regardless if the source material was mp3.

* Since I've been dealing with 16bit files I've Mastered them in 24bit after I've discovered that the 24 bit Signature (Depth ambiance and overall headroom) is nicely translated when you convert it to 16 bit and still preserves the characteristics of the mastered 24bit file. Plenty of headroom compared to mp3 sourced material.


----------



## cajunner

if this is akin to Pro Tools and the mastering that is being done actually addresses the shortcomings in a music file, based on the music, not the reproduction system that will reproduce it, I can see some usefulness.

Obviously, the world is now a youToob world, and there are many recordings out there that could be remastered by lone wolf disc jockey types who pirated their copies of Pro Tools and autotuned the **** out of.... ****? and with some bass added in (And Justice For All) or loudness wars fixored silliness, or just making Bieber's last vid watchable via interesting effects, there's a chance someone will like it, out there...

but to approach this as a fix for horn systems, when 90% of the horn systems out there using traditional techniques and mounting schemes do NOT need the changes to sound good, even fantastic, all on their own...


means that this solution is in flux for an actual issue to salvage the software share, most people accept their music, flaws and all and if you care about something, you don't need to pretty it up for your own vanity or whatever...

but hey, it takes all kinds and I'd press play on a working demo of this technique on some music that "needs it" based on a minority report.


----------



## P_4SPL

cajunner said:


> if this is akin to Pro Tools and the mastering that is being done actually addresses the shortcomings in a music file, based on the music, not the reproduction system that will reproduce it, I can see some usefulness.
> 
> Obviously, the world is now a youToob world, and there are many recordings out there that could be remastered by lone wolf disc jockey types who pirated their copies of Pro Tools and autotuned the **** out of.... ****? and with some bass added in (And Justice For All) or loudness wars fixored silliness, or just making Bieber's last vid watchable via interesting effects, there's a chance someone will like it, out there...
> 
> but to approach this as a fix for horn systems, when 90% of the horn systems out there using traditional techniques and mounting schemes do NOT need the changes to sound good, even fantastic, all on their own...
> 
> 
> means that this solution is in flux for an actual issue to salvage the software share, most people accept their music, flaws and all and if you care about something, you don't need to pretty it up for your own vanity or whatever...
> 
> but hey, it takes all kinds and I'd press play on a working demo of this technique on some music that "needs it" based on a minority report.



* Thats the issue is that some music needs that technique, it is completely useless if you use it for a track you will only listen to once, then throw it in the trash, then your talking about binge music listening where the last song you listened to was 100 different songs ago, its quite pointless if your going through tracks like peanuts or popcorn, cause you never gave them much substance in the first place so why bother doing anything to the track itself in the first place.


----------



## mikey7182

I don't think the things I said saturated at all. You keep talking about "people who think mp3 is good enough" as some defense for why people are questioning what it is you're trying to achieve in here. You're using words like tinny and hollow and empty to describe these tracks you're "fixing." You're taking files that are compressed, which is what makes them sound that way to begin with, and then trying to remaster them so your system sounds better. That's fine that you don't listen to music that is considered "mainstream" but I own a TON of stuff that wouldn't be considered mainstream, and yet because I purchased the original album instead of downloading some garbage **** version of it off Limewire or whatever share site people are using these days, the tracks don't need whatever it is you're trying to do to yours. Sure, there are variances in recording quality, but you're not talking about that. You keep saying mp3... mp3... mp3. Well, stop downloading ****ty tracks, then acting like if we don't all jump on board with your remastering of them, that we're all "just settling for mp3 quality recording." Besides, mp3 is simply a format, not a bitrate, so it's a bit of a vague or arbitrary identifier. Have you tried finding better (ORIGINAL) versions of these tracks you're trying to fix? How do they sound? 

I will also agree with SQRam and Jason that your choice of compression driver and horn combo is confusing. And I'm not sure why you were confused when SQRam said your driver was fine if your goal was to "stare at it" because you've said repeatedly you purchased that driver for aesthetic purposes- to paint it, and because it was visible and more cosmetically contoured to your car. I would suggest you have a long list of things to resolve before you start trying to remaster low bitrate tracks so they sound better. You're working backwards.


----------



## P_4SPL

mikey7182 said:


> I don't think the things I said saturated at all. You keep talking about "people who think mp3 is good enough" as some defense for why people are questioning what it is you're trying to achieve in here. You're using words like tinny and hollow and empty to describe these tracks you're "fixing." You're taking files that are compressed, which is what makes them sound that way to begin with, and then trying to remaster them so your system sounds better. That's fine that you don't listen to music that is considered "mainstream" but I own a TON of stuff that wouldn't be considered mainstream, and yet because I purchased the original album instead of downloading some garbage **** version of it off Limewire or whatever share site people are using these days, the tracks don't need whatever it is you're trying to do to yours. Sure, there are variances in recording quality, but you're not talking about that. You keep saying mp3... mp3... mp3. Well, stop downloading ****ty tracks, then acting like if we don't all jump on board with your remastering of them, that we're all "just settling for mp3 quality recording." Besides, mp3 is simply a format, not a bitrate, so it's a bit of a vague or arbitrary identifier. Have you tried finding better (ORIGINAL) versions of these tracks you're trying to fix? How do they sound?
> 
> I will also agree with SQRam and Jason that your choice of compression driver and horn combo is confusing. And I'm not sure why you were confused when SQRam said your driver was fine if your goal was to "stare at it" because you've said repeatedly you purchased that driver for aesthetic purposes- to paint it, and because it was visible and more cosmetically contoured to your car. I would suggest you have a long list of things to resolve before you start trying to remaster low bitrate tracks so they sound better. You're working backwards.



Put it this way, the Veritas Horn body was shaved to a 2" exit to couple the 2" exit on the Horn Magnet from 1.4" to 2" is not that much to trim off the body (just over 1/4") etc since the the horn body had a 90 degree exit surface that would have originally created alot of sharp surfaces inside the cavity to begin with that would have caused alot of reflective surfaces, I trimmed and removed those surfaces so the sound would curve over any surface inside the cavity. No harm done IMO.

* Again the point is, as I mentioned this process to someone last year about trimming the signal with compression in the HLCD pic area, they had considered using some PDX sound expander to make their music sound, good, so I suggested using compression and harmonics to make the sound sound better.

It was primitive since the software was from an ipad, but since then the izotopes software is able to be utilizied as a music Exciter which does things that seem defy the laws of sound IMO. Pretty neet stuff if your into that sort of thing, but, seems that Some people don't feel its worth their time, I'm not a Binge music listener.


----------



## MusicMike315

I mostly lurk but this thread has made me physically ill. For a thread that suggests it is about improving a horn install there is so much misinformation that someone contemplating horns could be mislead that they are impossible to get good sounding. The OP has no understanding whatsoever of acoustics or installation techniques. An attempt to "improve" the listening experience by further butchering/modifying his source material is anathema to nearly every established process in the hi/fi audio world to increase performance. I would hazard the guess that most of his issues are either ****/garbage mp3 source and/or his hacked attempt to run a 2" compression driver on his horns for "cosmetic" reasons. At the stated crossover point of 1.2k there are absolutely no reasons to run a large format driver in a car. If one wanted to take advantage of the ability to play lower with a large format driver you could simply use a 1.5" driver for which there is a properly engineered throat for the Veritas body. The throat is the most critical part of a car HLCD and it is in no way possible to merely enlarge/cut down any part of the throat or body of an existing horn and have it come anywhere close to acceptable. The closest analogy I can think of is someone who is not happy with the performance of his Civic so he drops in a blown top fuel motor and complains that the car is not driveable in everyday traffic. Then complains that it should work because he painted the block the same color as the car and if it doesnt work he will run it on gas instead of methanol. Then proceeds to argue with anyone that tells him he is out of his mind and knows what he is doing. Please OP in the future refrain from commenting on horns or car audio as you are spreading information that is patently incorrect and not futhering anyones knowledge which is what this site is about.

P.S. My experience with horns dates back to before USD/Speakerworks released theirs to the market, and I either own or have installed every body ever offered for sale in the car audio market except for the illusion. I similarly have experimented with nearly every driver available (many of which I am sure you have never heard of) including W.E. , TAD and Coral and beryllium and vapor deposited modified diaphragms. My experimentation also includes detailed TEF analysis si I can definitively tell you how much difference there is in throat design and size differences.


----------



## thehatedguy

Actually you can cut a horn down to a shorter length if you are using a larger driver than what was originally on it. Horns are area progressions, and would be shorter for a larger driver. All you need to do is find the area within the horn that is equal to the area of the exit of the driver you are using and tap the new driver in at that spot.

However with these horns, you would then have to find a nice way to go from 2" round to the 1"x3" rectangle.

And that reflector causes little harm IF it is placed right.

I am curious to see what the mods look like that were done to these horns.


----------



## SQram

Well said MusicMike. I like your analogy, very fitting. The analogy I was going to post was along the lines of brewing your own gasoline to increase the performance of your car, rather than buying performance engine parts. 

I'd love to hear more of your horn experiences, I've used every horn out there, including TAD 2001 and 2002 compression drivers. Wish I never sold them, I'm on the hunt for another pair right now...


----------



## thehatedguy

Forget about TAD and go straight for GOTO Unit or ALE Acoustic drivers


----------



## SQram

thehatedguy said:


> Actually you can cut a horn down to a shorter length if you are using a larger driver than what was originally on it. Horns are area progressions, and would be shorter for a larger driver. All you need to do is find the area within the horn that is equal to the area of the exit of the driver you are using and tap the new driver in at that spot.
> 
> However with these horns, you would then have to find a nice way to go from 2" round to the 1"x3" rectangle.
> 
> And that reflector causes little harm IF it is placed right.
> 
> I am curious to see what the mods look like that were done to these horns.



I agree that shortening a straight entry horn is pretty straight forward (no pun intended), but with the 90 degree reflector it gets much more complicated. As soon as the entry hole is enlarged, it would create a flat spot on top of the reflector, thus the reflector would have to be enlarged. Once the reflector is enlarged, it would extend deeper into the throat requiring the adapter exit to be enlarged, and on and on....

I'm no expert, but what the OP has done is all wrong IMO.


----------



## MikeS

MP3 Is Not A Four Letter Word | Metal-Fi Article


----------



## thehatedguy

For the reflector to be placed properly, I don't think it is possible to go from a 2 to 1" opening. I messed around with it for a while and couldn't find it geometrically possible.


----------



## SQram

thehatedguy said:


> For the reflector to be placed properly, I don't think it is possible to go from a 2 to 1" opening. I messed around with it for a while and couldn't find it geometrically possible.



Agreed...


----------



## SQram

thehatedguy said:


> Forget about TAD and go straight for GOTO Unit or ALE Acoustic drivers



Don't know a thing about em...tell me more...


----------



## thehatedguy

Are you sitting down are standing up? You might want to sit down when you see the prices...makes TADs look "inexpensive."


----------



## SkizeR

thehatedguy said:


> Are you sitting down are standing up? You might want to sit down when you see the prices...makes TADs look "inexpensive."


i cant even find anything on them, let along prices


----------



## cajunner

afternoon coffee anyone?



so, the way I look at horns is that the designers of the horn took pains to make a reflector and throat dimension that not only works theoretically, but that it took several attempts in a "mold, break mold, mold, break mold" sequence, and after making those attempts, hit upon a particularly close to theoretical happiness.

When you buy an Illusion, or a Veritas, or an ID full-body, or even the USD RotoMount, you get something that was found to work, and well enough to have achieved at least limited critical acceptance from the Horn media people...

or sales persons, perhaps.


anyways, if a guy just takes a pot of JB Weld and smears it all over his Veritas Aluminum body horns, then proceeds to ream out the little 1" opening in his horn mounting plate, and...

let's say he does it well. Let's say there's no out-of-round, or even a lip of any sort, no dimensional changes to the angle of entry at the motor's mating point.


Let's say he reams that puppy out and it's perfect. The 1" exit that was throwing shade on a reflector exactly proportioned to the 1" of audio barreling out, is now actually throwing 2" of audio into a 1" audio sized horn.


this means that before anything else, 3/4 of the signal will miss reflector.

math:

1" reflector = .785
2" relector = 3.14

3.14 divided by .785 = 4

so, as crudely attempted, reaming out a horn for the 2" exit so you can use some super sized motors, means that you've lost the trace, you've gone off the rez, you've beaten yourself with a rubber chicken...


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> Forget about TAD and go straight for GOTO Unit or ALE Acoustic drivers


Looks like you can paint them  

Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

I have enlarged ID horns to take a 1.5" driver, and nearly all of the opening is centered correctly over the reflector. But I would still want to use a supertweeter with them.

The placement of the reflector is crucial.

See here: http://www.volvotreter.de/downloads/Edgar-Monolith-Horn-02.jpg


----------



## cajunner

since this is only important in frequencies high enough (short enough) to actually reflect, and not travel down the horn's trajectory as a wavefront, we're possibly not even getting to the symptoms of the OP's reconstructive surgery that he's using a crutch to support his idea of fixing the music and not the speakers.

but to the horn thoughts, 1.5" of throat in a 1" designed horn, means a lot of high energy information is going to simply miss the reflector, shearing off the horn's narrowing aperture and scattering as HOM.

like taking a dinner plate and throwing it at a dessert plate, all the bits of plate that miss around the outside of the center, shatter and leave a less useful signal to travel coherently, concentric to the horn walls.

I would imagine even a compromised horn such as that, would sound okay if you used a supertweeter, which means there is more going on in the OP's franken-horn production.

I would imagine there are compounding errors with a step in angle, lip, groove, and maybe even plain geometric errors based on horn aerodynamics or physical dimensions.

If I had to enlarge a Veritas body to accept a 2" horn entrance, I'd probably be forced to completely refabricate the 90 degree bend section and in doing so, would change the geometry of the horn so much, it'd have to be a new horn altogether unless..


one could split the Veritas on the horizontal, and add an expansion rate to the horn by adding a wedge, that could allow for the 2" of acoustic energy to propagate and extend without being forced to contract or truncate the wavefront...


----------



## thehatedguy

But the point is, you can not geometrically make a 2" to 1" adapter and reflector work.


----------



## cajunner

right.

and with horn geometry being so dependent on lessening HOM the idea that a 1.5" driver can be adapted to fit a 1" designed horn, is to a lesser degree, also unreliable.

I see even the driver manufacturers themselves have 1.4" exit to 1" adapters, and 1.5" to 2" adapters, etc.

I don't know how much error is being brought to bear, but I would chop the Veritas at the 1" X 3" section and rebuild the entire 90 degree to motor section, before I'd ream out the 1" (or 1.5") opening to install large format CD motors.

You could possibly design it as a more shallow overall design, able to fit into thinner dashes or just further back to the firewall?

If someone successfully produced a motor transition phase for 2" exit CD drivers into a Veritas design, it could play down to 550 hz and get into some of the tie-in vocals that traditional full sized bodies miss, at 800 hz and up...


----------



## P_4SPL

Seems there are a bunch on here with Horns and Veritas stuff.

* I'd post pics of the horns mod but I don't have any at my disposal, they have been painted in black rubber compound to waterproof the them in a sense.

I still feel touching the music is necessary for the veihcle for enthusiasts, possibly not audiophiles. 

I'm sure I can sit in a vehicle, have someone play an mp3 track loud and say well that's interesting, will I hear distortion? Maybe not, will I hear a decent sound stage? possibly, will the audio spectrum in the cabin sound good? Depends on the install.

It in fact mostly depends on the Dash, I've got curved doors where the Veritas throats exit the sides, it carry's the sound up into the ceiling to help create an ambiance in the cabin, the curved front dash ( of my Eagle) as well if you look at the pics, is sloped to channel the horns sounds up to the drivers listening area better.

I would say that the sound stage is a complete illusion if you try and place where 70% of the sound is coming from.

* Add to the fact the adding an Exciter effect to the track, brings out the midbass response much more bluntly, as it's not hidden as with the original track, I dunno mp3 vs Bit enhanced files are night and day IMO. Saying that I needed to cheat to accomplish the illusion is like failing to accept that some cars horns are just not installable in some vehicles.

The most difficult issue with my install in terms of sound was I was unable to balance the low volume transparency of the soundstage. I now find it more discernable when the bass is adjusted properly. Of course modifying the track to make a system sound better is always speculative, but mostly the results should be discernable.

If posting this means others will do this thinking they'll fix their issue, then why complain trying to modify a vehicle interior to fit the geometery of someone suggestions. I'm sure its been come across in alot of horn installs. Very tricky. lol.


----------



## thehatedguy

The size adapters are usually about a 300-350 hertz conical expansion- talking about the 1-2, 1.5-2 type adapters you see for prosound here. 

Veritas sold horns that had 1.5" motors on them and sold the adapters separately at one point too. I know when I talked to Bill Bibb back in the day he said he had and sold them. I believe SQRam has or had a set of those.

Yeah the horn itself would physically be shorter, and I don't know how much you go compression driver shopping...but a neo motored 2" driver is a lot of money, especially a good one. And ferrite motored 2" drivers are HUGE. WAY too large to really fit in any vehicle. Not to mention 2" drivers aren't exactly known for their treble quality though there are a couple out there that do ok.

I have taken 1" drivers on Eric's horns down to 600 on really steep slopes. To do that right, it would have to be the right driver...something with a larger back cup and not completely optimized for strictly treble use like a lot of the newer smaller drivers are.

It's all about compromises and which ones you want or willing to make.


----------



## thehatedguy

Man if that car didn't have that big console, you'd have nearly the perfect dash for horns.


----------



## cajunner

thehatedguy said:


> The size adapters are usually about a 300-350 hertz conical expansion- talking about the 1-2, 1.5-2 type adapters you see for prosound here.
> 
> Veritas sold horns that had 1.5" motors on them and sold the adapters separately at one point too. I know when I talked to Bill Bibb back in the day he said he had and sold them. I believe SQRam has or had a set of those.
> 
> Yeah the horn itself would physically be shorter, and I don't know how much you go compression driver shopping...but a neo motored 2" driver is a lot of money, especially a good one. And ferrite motored 2" drivers are HUGE. WAY too large to really fit in any vehicle. Not to mention 2" drivers aren't exactly known for their treble quality though there are a couple out there that do ok.
> 
> I have taken 1" drivers on Eric's horns down to 600 on really steep slopes. To do that right, it would have to be the right driver...something with a larger back cup and not completely optimized for strictly treble use like a lot of the newer smaller drivers are.
> 
> It's all about compromises and which ones you want or willing to make.


cool info in a blown thread, haha...

with 3-D printing an option now, how cool would it be to make a JBL D2 from a pair of 4" rings, using neo and permendur for top plates?

The skeleton could be made from plastic, with most of the drive parts scalloped out for less weight as a consumer level drive unit.

I believe the standard D2 is capable of making 500 hz a reality at consumer audio power levels, but if you were to increase the diaphragm circumference and get it into a horn that was only 3/4 the depth of the Veritas with about 3 inches more width for those deeper tones...

that would be cool, no?


----------



## P_4SPL

*I remember Bill Bibb, he used to sell the Midbass drivers with the Veritas Horns. I had the old magnets in for a while before I found the 950B.

If you notice the doors how they're curved, that's important when channeling side channel freq's. The armrest itself is an extension of the waveguides dispersion, it curves upwards towards the listeners/ driver ears. You'd think the vehicle was engineered around the waveguides dispersion . The Dash was the first extended front end cabin design or something like that. But yes definatley it is an atypical cabin design theme. The horns acoustics load into the dash, so they appear above their horizontal plane, much to the help of the software, 24bit just extends deeper into the dash as well, I'm quite impressed at the dramatic difference in relation to 16 bit signal. It's True 24bit audio Experience. :laugh:

Is this what peopl;e are looking for for their vehicels?

http://www.parts-express.com/dbx-1046-quad-compressor---limiter--246-116


----------



## jpeezy

TWOGOODEARS - トゥーグッドイアーズ: WJAAS - The best of the crop: A.L.E. Acoustic Laboratories


----------



## jpeezy

Do not mean to thread jack .http://www.theaudioeagle.com/columns/column03.html


----------



## jpeezy

6moons.com - industry features: Goto Unit


----------



## jpeezy

Last one Ale Acoustic 1710 Tweeters Horn Speakers | eBay


----------



## P_4SPL

* I happened to be skimming through car audio websites, and decided to checkout what Kicker has to offer.

This whole thread is about music compression to ease the the volatile effects of hot mastered mp3 audio, and tame the Brash sound that can occur when installed in doors, or when using horns or waveguides to reproduce the music.

The results I have had have been conclusive and enjoyable, if you have the time to do that.

Kicker seems to have introduced a similar concept without the time required to do so.

Features for the IQI Inteligent interface:

EQ, Time Delay - Compression!?

Check it out here:

KICKER | IQI Intelligent Interface

Scroll down and you'll see it's features, Compression happens to be one of them.

*I been looking around for a new DSP processor for a future new project , this does seem interesting.




Kicker QUOTE:

INFINITE MEASUREMENTS

Using a tablet or smartphone wirelessly connected through the IQI, download the practical KICKER TWEEQ™ app (available on iTunes® or Google Play®) and control all special DSP parameters of IQ processing. This includes a 31-band graphic KickEQ™ boost on each channel, built-in crossovers with a choice of adjustable Butterworth or Linkwitz-Riley slopes, adjustable time delay *and a compressor for the clearest sound at high volumes and with a realistic soundstage, and an input mixer for ultimate signal routing.*


----------



## P_4SPL

BUMP!!


----------



## P_4SPL

Bump


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## P_4SPL

Bump.


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## P_4SPL

https://youtu.be/5AkjuM5IFAg?t=110


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## P_4SPL

http://www.kicker.com/app/manuals/amplifiers/iq/Compression_IQ.pdf


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## P_4SPL

http://www.kicker.com/app/manuals/amplifiers/iq/Compression_IQ.pdf


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## P_4SPL

https://youtu.be/mpURJLnJhaw?t=200


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## P_4SPL




----------



## thehatedguy

I am pretty sure Kicker and SQ haven't gone together in the last decade or so.

But it's perfect for their market- let's squeeze every bit of dynamics out of the music so we can make it seem louder...cause Kicker is living loud.


----------



## SQram

Indeed. Seems very counter intuitive to buy horns for their impressive dynamics and then enable a compressor to squash them.


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## cajunner

if loudness is the goal and horns can deliver efficiency, why not squash some of the immediacy and startle response capability of horns with that rude, brash dynamic power and just get a more balanced system with big subs, then?

some people don't have the stomach to stand in front of a trombone at 3 feet while a zealous high schooler blows for all he's worth.

it's not always clear or apparent that sound quality can be discussed in less than absolute terms with some people favoring the hi-fi approach while others crave their near in-concert experience, pushing their drivers to the shedding of heat and their ears to the point of tinnitus.

I can see where limiters and compression are useful adjuncts when some of the recordings are capable of being slightly squashed, but if we're talking loudness wars and the death of sound quality by storage, or lossy codecs like mp3, then we're doing ourselves a disservice with the engagement of more musical truncation.

also, the wonder of modernization has delivered us bluetooth, which is a threshold of audibility that doesn't require another step down of essential juices, a dilution inside the digital envelope that allows one to fit a signal capacity, than obtain a more pure reproduction.

all that said, a limiter is included in pro audio DSP product so let's compare the pro audio environment to that of a car.

what are the goals of each?

supplying a quality listening experience over a larger area, DSP for wide coverage may interfere with the goals of a single seat setup, but compression seems to be a modifier that doesn't create disturbances or fix anomalies in the listening field.

so, I would suspect that using compression to smooth out the horn response and achieve a more standardized, hi-fi sounding equivalent, will fit some people's objectives and some will believe it hurts the response, with a reference that includes more "live" criteria in the descriptors.

The effect of compression is almost like adding deadening materials and increasing the dynamic range of a listening environment, you will hear the low passages more clearly and you won't need to max out the volume to bring the musical range above the noise floor, and with reducing the noise floor mechanically, you obtain the same thing.


so people that are saying compression is a useless modification of the signal without qualifying such a statement because they don't have music with range to start with, are missing some of the picture.


----------



## SQram

Cajunner - lets get one thing straight. Compression does not smooth out erratic response. If there are large peaks/nulls in an audio system, they will still be there if you compress the content entering the system. The OP clearly has issues in his system, he'd be a lot further ahead if he corrected system issues through tuning/implementation rather than modifying the content. Sure, you can remaster ****ty MP3's to try and improve playback, but this approach is flawed if there are problems in the physical media.


----------



## mikey7182

I'm not sure how many horn threads P_4SPL is going to inundate with his erratic, "you all must just settle for garbage mp3 quality if you disagree with me" observations, but at least save a digital tree and paste all your links in the same post instead of post-whore bumping this thread 9 times in the last 24 hours. Jesus Christ. We get that you have a massive library of underground music in some lossy format, and you want to make your horns sound better by manipulating manipulated recordings rather than acquiring original high quality copies. But stop perpetuating myths on this forum and others as you've been advised before, as if we all share your dilemma.


----------



## cajunner

I agree that horn systems can make some recordings less pleasurable to listen to because those recordings have response abnormality. I read recently where a big proponent of car horns stated there were songs that had parts in them that made them hard to listen to on a horn system, and I think there's some common ground to be had here with the OP's thought process.


I personally disagree with the idea that changing around music using software that applies compression, is valid for most music but I can accept that there are a potential number of works that could have sounded better using global compression rather than a tonal fix using equalization instead.

I am not aware of such recordings, and my own experiences with horns is to accept whatever is being illuminated by the glare of a horn, as just a part of the sound experience. I can accept using foam for HOM or "glare" in the attempt to make horns less noticeable or objectionable, and if someone says they found a way to change their music to sound better on their horn system, I would definitely want to see a caveat, or explanation for the use of the music modification, if it were being promoted in a sound quality forum.

Ultimately, even the person who thinks that compression fixes car horn's ills, might concede that for much of the recorded music out there, the benefits are not there, outweighed by the penalties of compression, and of no substantive use except for their own particular instances.

a lot of people haven't heard a compression circuit switched in and out in their own systems, and I'm sure many more haven't heard their music after being extra-compressed by this method but some would prefer it and others would abhor it, and it's possible you could have 50% of a listening panel not know what was being done to the music in a blind test.

After all, the music industry has been compressing their offerings for many years and it still takes some pretty strong hardware to prove it, and the loudness war is a real thing.

so as much as I enjoy making libraries of music, if someone wants to go further and bastardize their music collection by adding compression to make their music more listenable on the road in their car on their car horns, I would have to say it's a free country and all that. But, I also won't throw out the use of compression as an adjunct for hearing impaired folks to more easily understand dialogue or music's challenging detail, in the normalization of a playback scheme that actually shortchanges some of us for the rest.


----------



## SQram

So why run horns if you're offended by the sheer output/dynamics? That's like buying a Corvette and being pissed off because it has too much power...no?

Wouldn't it make sense to yank the horns and install something a little less offensive to your ears? 

This thread is so full of BS...


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Cajunner, it's actually really simple to prove the industries compression with a computer and audacity, provided that you have access to two different masterings. For instance, and original first issue of Hotel California, and the 2006 or 2009 remastered version. Audacity will show the difference clearly. And it's clearly audible.

Or, another case would be Lamb Of God's Wrath. The regular cd is compressed to crap. But, there was a special edition that included 192k mp3 versions of the guitar, drum, vocal, and bass tracks, all uncompressed dynamically and ready to be put together any way you pleased. Put them together in Audacity and you have Lamb Of God's Wrath with an average crest ratio of 12-14db, vs the 5-6db of the actual cd. In this case, the mp3 assembled version sounds far better than the lossless cd format.


----------



## cajunner

efficiency with horns, comes at a cost.

some people don't like horn honk, (well, most don't) and yet don't have the ability to produce the same output using normal direct radiators. Instead of giving up on horn output, they will do whatever they can to keep the things they like about horn systems in play, and reduce the horn effects that they don't like.

If your goal of sound quality also includes realism and live sound, then you may be more amenable to leaving those horn artifacts in the mix. Others who come from a more staid, hi-fi type listening background will find fault.


It's not more or less wrong, it's just more or less right...

haha..


----------



## cajunner

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Cajunner, it's actually really simple to prove the industries compression with a computer and audacity, provided that you have access to two different masterings. For instance, and original first issue of Hotel California, and the 2006 or 2009 remastered version. Audacity will show the difference clearly. And it's clearly audible.
> 
> Or, another case would be Lamb Of God's Wrath. The regular cd is compressed to crap. But, there was a special edition that included 192k mp3 versions of the guitar, drum, vocal, and bass tracks, all uncompressed dynamically and ready to be put together any way you pleased. Put them together in Audacity and you have Lamb Of God's Wrath with an average crest ratio of 12-14db, vs the 5-6db of the actual cd. In this case, the mp3 assembled version sounds far better than the lossless cd format.


would you agree that horns can sometimes over-emphasize an instrument in a narrow band, that was recorded without compression?

and that some horns will have more of these peaks in the response than others, even within the range of car audio underdash models in the market?

like an ES full body might be less objectionable, where a Veritas that was incorrectly modified, is pretty rough with it's raw output?

so a person who has modified their horns, using 2" exit CD motors, which in and of themselves are wrought with problems like fatigued or damaged diaphragms, and even when operating correctly can exhibit response irregularity that requires huge equalization to get back to a baseline, would that person be wrong if they found that they could master their music, better than the horn speaker combination they were stuck with?

And yes, of course it's wrong. But I can see how someone might come to the conclusion that fixing their music is better than fixing their horn installation, especially if they don't know what they did when they changed various things like throat magnification, lens transition, compression ratio mismatch, etc. on possibly bad driver units.

So I don't blame a bunch of you (us) for trying to force the issue, but at least I can see how someone could arrive at that destination. 

for the record, I hate futzing around with music to suit my tastes and I have trouble understanding the inclination. 

I'm not to be found doing memes of cats playing Beethoven while pithy remarks are displayed beneath, on social media sites.

or whatever passes for cool these days. I like to play a composition exactly the way the recording studio guy who did the last finishing touches, heard it.

Now, I may not be even close with my systems, but I have no doubt that adding compression will take me farther away, than bring me closer to the goal.


----------



## SQram

Ugh...I give up.

A properly tuned horn system will not "honk" or even sound like a "horn system". Mic Wallace's car is a perfect example of that, numerous people have posted here saying his car does not sound like a "horn" car. It's all in the tuning.

I run the Illusion horns in my truck, they don't "honk" at all, even with no EQ applied.

In any event, compression will not fix horn honk, thus this thread needs to die...:-/


----------



## SQram

cajunner said:


> would you agree that horns can sometimes over-emphasize an instrument in a narrow band, that was recorded without compression?
> 
> and that some horns will have more of these peaks in the response than others, even within the range of car audio underdash models in the market?
> 
> like an ES full body might be less objectionable, where a Veritas that was incorrectly modified, is pretty rough with it's raw output?
> 
> so a person who has modified their horns, using 2" exit CD motors, which in and of themselves are wrought with problems like fatigued or damaged diaphragms, and even when operating correctly can exhibit response irregularity that requires huge equalization to get back to a baseline, would that person be wrong if they found that they could master their music, better than the horn speaker combination they were stuck with?
> 
> And yes, of course it's wrong. But I can see how someone might come to the conclusion that fixing their music is better than fixing their horn installation, especially if they don't know what they did when they changed various things like throat magnification, lens transition, compression ratio mismatch, etc. on possibly bad driver units.
> 
> So I don't blame a bunch of you (us) for trying to force the issue, but at least I can see how someone could arrive at that destination.
> 
> for the record, I hate futzing around with music to suit my tastes and I have trouble understanding the inclination.
> 
> I'm not to be found doing memes of cats playing Beethoven while pithy remarks are displayed beneath, on social media sites.
> 
> or whatever passes for cool these days. I like to play a composition exactly the way the recording studio guy who did the last finishing touches, heard it.
> 
> Now, I may not be even close with my systems, but I have no doubt that adding compression will take me farther away, than bring me closer to the goal.



Read the title of this thread, do you agree that this content is good advise for the general public? 

That's the problem (at least for me). This is terrible advise that might pop up in someone's Google search engine when looking for help tuning horns (or any system).


----------



## cajunner

SQram said:


> Read the title of this thread, do you agree that this content is good advise for the general public?
> 
> That's the problem (at least for me). This is terrible advise that might pop up in someone's Google search engine when looking for help tuning horns (or any system).


I understand your concerns.

I also have a problem with the thread's premise, it's OP's various attempts to legitimize making a discography of altered media based on the problems with his horn installation, that likely do not have any basis in fact as being representative of all horn systems and their sound signatures.

I was one of the first to say "do NOT make another thread" about this idea, since it's been thoroughly debunked and discarded by some of the top brass, as it were...




and I am averse to the methods used within by the OP, even without a real-time observation of cause and effect.

And let's face it, if the OP got his car to sound like Mic Wallace's car, and still needs to remedy something in the system, hey...

let's go down that road together, because it's going to require some pretty heavy lifting to convince me and a lot of other folks, and I haven't even heard Mic's car!

I guess what I'm saying is we all know that the OP's car probably sounded like crap no matter what this guy's doing to the horns to make it sound better, and he got so frustrated he began attacking his musical selections with a compressor as a band-aid, and....

he hits on a solve equation epiphany.

apply compressor, horn honk reduced, all music sound better, hey...


I'm on to something here!



finds factual evidence of others who like compression in the car, it actually goes way, way back, there's been compression in car systems, starting with the soft-clipping of radio tubes! Haha...

but if you look at promotional materials, the DiscJockey was fitted with a compression circuit, because back then, the extreme dynamic range was seen as a possible detriment to enjoying the sound on the road, where the lowest passages were lost to tire rumble and wind noise, exhaust tones...

and it was a result of the CD medium's unprecedented noise floor, and even today you can find people who will want to press a compressor button on some pieces of orchestral works, or in OEM systems include it as an intelligibility increaser, and to save the speakers... which brings us to Bose.


Yes. BOSE!

Their patented "dynamic" circuit, is compression applied as a contour, right?

Even authentic pioneers of the audio find compression a useful tool, you can throw it out as a sound quality exception but when used in a mildly affecting circuit it actually can improve a listener's experience at times.

So as much as I'd like to put a lock on this one and let it go into the flush-hole of audio ideas that are better left on a cutting room floor, there's a little tweak of genuine fix-it applicable towards something if not feasible, at least moves toward something that registers on the scale of usefulness. 

IMHO.


----------



## Mic10is

um...thanks for the compliment guys...I think


----------



## SQram

cajunner said:


> Even authentic pioneers of the audio find compression a useful tool, you can throw it out as a sound quality exception but when used in a mildly affecting circuit it actually can improve a listener's experience at times.
> 
> So as much as I'd like to put a lock on this one and let it go into the flush-hole of audio ideas that are better left on a cutting room floor, there's a little tweak of genuine fix-it applicable towards something if not feasible, at least moves toward something that registers on the scale of usefulness.
> 
> IMHO.


Agreed, compression is a useful tool, however...

Let's revisit post #2 from this very thread from the man himself:



Eric Stevens said:


> A lack of compression as the volume increases is more the issue. With a conventional direct radiator system the power compression softens things ad the volume is raised up.
> 
> Proper tuning and adjustment gets more important with a HLCD so they sound great at all volumes. Nothing you do will make a bad recording sound good though.
> 
> If its harsh pull down 2.5Khz and 3.1Khz about 3-6dB and pull down 2Khz and 4Khz 1-3dB


One could probably draw the conclusion that automotive horns generally have a frequency rise in the 2-4Khz. region, it's been posted all over this forum in the HLCD tuning threads. They also tend to roll off on the top end, that's no secret. Compress the music all you want, you are not going to smooth out those traits. Yes, you'll give the dynamic peaks a haircut, but all that content below the peak remains.

Look at it from another perspective. Take a pink noise track, apply compression and measure. I'm willing to bet the frequency response is still boosted 2-4KHz.? Is the roll off on the top end still apparent? I'll bet it is. 

Compressed music may sound less offensive as the dynamic range has been reduced, but the problems within the system itself still remain.


----------



## SQram

Mic10is said:


> um...thanks for the compliment guys...I think


Had to throw you a bone, I think I bought my first set of horns from you over 15 years ago.


----------



## P_4SPL

* I would like to add that this thread now has substance, in terms of projecting a better view of what compression can actually do to a system.

Some people still believe that leveling the cars door vehicle panels with deadening material will resolve alot of standing wave issues, sure it might solve issues up to 160hz- but anything above those freq's will still suffer from backwave distortion and incoherence with arriving freq's crashing into the woofers back due to the doors poor reflective response, at high volumes.

The kicker systems seems to although DEFY the elemental models of car audio acoustics in terms of fundamental beliefs, it non the less subjects the fact that High volumes of most mp3 music cannot and will never produce clear detail coherent and differentiated response inside the vehicle, without cone breakup nodes, sure your music will sound great at low to moderate volumes, sure I can add 4 15" subs to dilute the brash sound of my highs, but then I would be ignoring the fact that there are still issues with the overall Front stage response of my system at very high volumes.

* Compression in a vehicle helps resolve those high volume breakup nodes that are introduced * 1 From mp3 Freq's or Horns, 2. from drivers mounted in steel doors that reflect too many nodes in the rear wave to be able to clear play the music dynamically differentiated. IMO the main goal of Kickers compression DSP system is to reduce those detailed freq's in the drivers doors, so as they not crash into the rear panel of the door and are smoothed out to Curb the doors more for a more enveloped reflection, thus producing better sustained dynamics at very high volumes.

Mp3 format was originally intended to save space in a desktop environment while doing its best to preserve the original mastered music. This would work well on a 10w desktop system, but when you delve into power above 50A/Wattage then your finding yourself in denial (IMO) about how a high power amp differentiates an compressed PCM signal properly at very high volume levels.

Mp3 is like fuel injection, it's it was made to save gas, not win road/spl races etc.


----------



## SQram

P_4SPL said:


> * I would like to add that this thread now has substance, in terms of projecting a better view of what compression can actually do to a system.
> 
> Some people still believe that leveling the cars door vehicle panels with deadening material will resolve alot of standing wave issues, sure it might solve issues up to 160hz- but anything above those freq's will still suffer from backwave distortion and incoherence with arriving freq's crashing into the woofers back due to the doors poor reflective response, at high volumes.
> 
> The kicker systems seems to although DEFY the elemental models of car audio acoustics in terms of fundamental beliefs, it non the less subjects the fact that High volumes of most mp3 music cannot and will never produce clear detail coherent and differentiated response inside the vehicle, without cone breakup nodes, sure your music will sound great at low to moderate volumes, sure I can add 4 15" subs to dilute the brash sound of my highs, but then I would be ignoring the fact that there are still issues with the overall Front stage response of my system at very high volumes.
> 
> * Compression in a vehicle helps resolve those high volume breakup nodes that are introduced * 1 From mp3 Freq's or Horns, 2. from drivers mounted in steel doors that reflect too many nodes in the rear wave to be able to clear play the music dynamically differentiated. IMO the main goal of Kickers compression DSP system is to reduce those detailed freq's in the drivers doors, so as they not crash into the rear panel of the door and are smoothed out to Curb the doors more for a more enveloped reflection, thus producing better sustained dynamics at very high volumes.
> 
> Mp3 format was originally intended to save space in a desktop environment while doing its best to preserve the original mastered music. This would work well on a 10w desktop system, but when you delve into power above 50A/Wattage then your finding yourself in denial (IMO) about how a high power amp differentiates an compressed PCM signal properly at very high volume levels.
> 
> Mp3 is like fuel injection, it's it was made to save gas, not win road/spl races etc.


I seriously want to punch my computer screen when I read your posts...so much verbal diarrhea...:mean:


----------



## thehatedguy

Maybe it's just me, but can someone explain to me how by adding compression to your music you can reduce the power curve of the horns (that 1-4k gain that can give horns their "sound")?

So by reducing dynamics, you have some how magically performed EQing in the process? Or have fixed either a physical problem with the horn or the enclosure the midbass is in? I am just not getting the connection and how it is supposed to work.

And no, I would not agree that horns make any instrument stand out more than a direct radiator with a couple bands of EQ boosted does.


----------



## SQram

thehatedguy said:


> Maybe it's just me, but can someone explain to me how by adding compression to your music you can reduce the power curve of the horns (that 1-4k gain that can give horns their "sound")?
> 
> So by reducing dynamics, you have some how magically performed EQing in the process? Or have fixed either a physical problem with the horn or the enclosure the midbass is in? I am just not getting the connection and how it is supposed to work.
> 
> And no, I would not agree that horns make any instrument stand out more than a direct radiator with a couple bands of EQ boosted does.


Agreed (post #127 above).


----------



## P_4SPL

* I feel that the idea a Manufacturer (Kicker) includes a compressor in their DSP shows that they understand the weaknesses inherant in mp3 audio as well as Vehicle environments, at loud volumes. I'm sure the older fundamentalist's that feel audio should be naturally produced can argue what it's purpose would be, for those who are concerned about the install itself should be pristine, none the less it's truly a way to compensate for brash sounding recordings, that admitedly must be of concern to many audio fanatics in search of audio fidelity in the vehicle.

It truly is a subjective choice. * I don't know what the politics of Modern Car Audio shops are today, if a customer pays $4,000 + on a system , only to complain that it still doesn't full fill their audible requirements then there is a real problem in terms of making the customer satisfied without spending more money or even re-doing the install itself. It truly is subjective criticism.


----------



## SQram

*The truth is you have no idea why Kicker incorperated a compressor in their EQ, but you're using it to bolster your argument that ****ty installs can be manicured with compression.

*I think Jason said it best:



thehatedguy said:


> But it's perfect for their market- let's squeeze every bit of dynamics out of the music so we can make it seem louder...cause Kicker is living loud.


----------



## P_4SPL

Kickers clearly states the compressor is for the best possible sound at loud volumes.

* Yes I agree louder is better advertisement jargon than SQ.

Again truly subjective, no one is right or wrong.


----------



## thehatedguy

Someone please tell me how adding compression to the music fixes physical problems with the install and equipment.


----------



## SkizeR

thehatedguy said:


> Someone please tell me how adding compression to the music fixes physical problems with the install and equipment.


It doesnt, which is why all the crazy **** being spewed in this thread, and even the rest of the forum, should be deleted to stop the spread of bad info

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## SQram

P_4SPL said:


> Kickers clearly states the compressor is for the best possible sound at loud volumes.
> 
> * Yes I agree louder is better advertisement jargon than SQ.
> 
> Again truly subjective, no one is right or wrong.


You are very clearly wrong, as many have pointed out here.


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## P_4SPL

* The opinions expressed on this thread lacks the necessary community involvement to better scrutinize the thread in general. The lack of any further opinions further shows that the existing 2-3 members only have a vested interest in generalizing and diluting concrete concepts and demeaning the poster of this thread simply to full fill their own personal interests.


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## mikey7182

Your posts sound like disclaimers written by someone who pursued a law degree on the internet and didn't graduate. What exactly constitutes "necessary community involvement" in order to render valid the scrutiny your ideas have received? Nobody started off demeaning you, but after a litany of posts disagreeing with and debunking your ideas, you keep spewing the same nonsense and bumping this thread compulsively like you're sitting behind the keyboard with undiagnosed Parkinson's disease.


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## thehatedguy

Just tell me the mechanism in which adding compression to the signal/source can correct for physical problems with the car and/or it's installation. I am NOT talking about MP3s or anything to do with MP3s, so to reference that in a reply or explaination will be fruitless and a waste of time.

There is no diluting of concrete concepts. It is your opinion that no one else shares and then the popular opinion.



P_4SPL said:


> * The opinions expressed on this thread lacks the necessary community involvement to better scrutinize the thread in general. The lack of any further opinions further shows that the existing 2-3 members only have a vested interest in generalizing and diluting concrete concepts and demeaning the poster of this thread simply to full fill their own personal interests.


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## cajunner

mikey7182 said:


> Your posts sound like disclaimers written by someone who pursued a law degree on the internet and didn't graduate. What exactly constitutes "necessary community involvement" in order to render valid the scrutiny your ideas have received? Nobody started off demeaning you, but after a litany of posts disagreeing with and debunking your ideas, you keep spewing the same nonsense and bumping this thread compulsively like you're sitting behind the keyboard with undiagnosed Parkinson's disease.


:laugh:


that's turrible..

I'm not trying to make a friend, but when I see someone who is obviously a fan of horn systems and has resorted to drastic measures to make that system sound good to his ears, I kind of empathize with him.

He's got some bad ideas and yet, being dismissed out of hand he digs in, I kind of admire that tenacity in the face of public scorn.

So I figure why not make a little dent in the known infopedia about horns with an exercise in web tolerance, as we attempt to dissuade the OP about his losing proposition.

I don't doubt that the OP has made his own horn system more tolerable to his ears using compression on the music, whether or not that compression comes from a circuit in his playback system or is embedded in the software enhanced tracks he proposes as a solution here, the fact remains that for his own much maligned purposes it has brought fruit.

Now, temperance is a virtue and we as a group have been at turns, harsh and abrasive and perhaps, wittingly curious as to this new wrinkle.


Audio ideas come along and sometimes what started out as a non-starter, (pun?) can morph into a useful tool or propel a tangential application to some unknown, purposed end.

Like, someone who has never tried a software manipulation will download a compressor program to see if this idea has any merit at all, and the immersion allows that person to become familiar with DSP possibilities. 

although, I think even though we are now many pages into a thread talking about horns in what is a sum-neutral or positive tally promoting their use, we could likely let this one go, bid adieu, non-commit, consciously un-couple, haha...


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## mikey7182

I always appreciate your voice of reason, cajunner. Or I could be punny and say your voice of season...? Are you a backyard Bobby Flay? Cajunner: The Voice of Season. Sometimes a blend of relentless homework and day drinking pushes one to his or her mental edge. This is where creativity is fostered. 

Anyway, they DO call them compression drivers... yeah? Yeah?? Maybe he's onto something.


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## pocket5s

SkizeR said:


> ... even the rest of the forum, should be deleted to stop the spread of bad info


That would cover most of the forum in the last 6 years or so


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## SQram

P_4SPL

Here's my attempt at a friendly post.

Head over to the General or even the Technical section of this forum and start a post with a title along the lines of "The merits of music compression and remixing", or something similar. Post your methods, and offer some samples for everyone to listen to. Avoid terms like "solution to harsh speakers", or "fix your horns". Keep it light, don't come in like you wrote the book on the subject. Music compression is nothing new.

Then come back to the HLCD section and lets have a discussion on how to improve your car system. There's probably a lot of simple things you could do to take it to the next level. There is a wealth of knowledge in here, it's the reason I've hung around for 15+ years. I'm here to learn. I'll bet if you did that you'd have a killer system that you'd enjoy even more than you do now. You might not feel the need to remix your music, or maybe you do, either way it's a win/win.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^In addition, please post what kind of music your doing this with as well. I'm having a hard time with this, as I've been doing anything in my power to avoid compressed music, because real, live music isn't compressed like recorded music is.


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## P_4SPL

I agree the technical terminalogy for this post has been inconsistent, and can be improved upon, this was supposed to be a longer post that I should have posted in the General section, but...decided to post it in the HLCD forum area due to the nature of the beast with horns. My Horns sound great, do they sound next level when I Master the music, most definatly, is it a lengthy process to take it to another level, I agree it is and not worth persuing if you do not have the time.

Attempting to degrade my install and say its wrong is similar to suggesting to cut into my firewall in my vehicle to better properly align the horn to my ears so it sounds smoother, there is only so much you can do with an install, I happen to be fortunate enough that my horns soundstage does not produce substantial freqy smearing of the soundstage due to off angle localization of the drivers, my dash and doors are sound guides themselves that help bring up the soundstage ambiance in the cabin, I could EQ the horns and have them sound great, but I know they can play most freqs with more resolution and weight to them at louder volumes when they are compressed. Compression changes the attack times so the attack....exits the throat of the driver at precisely the right time with the rest of the audio, sure I might be changing the original intention of the audio, but where talking about audio that is Mastered hot anyways.


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## P_4SPL

SQram said:


> P_4SPL
> 
> Here's my attempt at a friendly post.
> 
> Head over to the General or even the Technical section of this forum and start a post with a title along the lines of "The merits of music compression and remixing", or something similar. Post your methods, and offer some samples for everyone to listen to. Avoid terms like "solution to harsh speakers", or "fix your horns". Keep it light, don't come in like you wrote the book on the subject. Music compression is nothing new.
> 
> Then come back to the HLCD section and lets have a discussion on how to improve your car system. There's probably a lot of simple things you could do to take it to the next level. There is a wealth of knowledge in here, it's the reason I've hung around for 15+ years. I'm here to learn. I'll bet if you did that you'd have a killer system that you'd enjoy even more than you do now. You might not feel the need to remix your music, or maybe you do, either way it's a win/win.


I agree I will do that, the only issue is, I have 72 hours to create the post, which is not enough time, thats why this post is unfinished because I am not a paying subscriber.

* But I would definatly consider paying a fee to post about this topic in the future for reference to others, with more detailed steps from what Ive learned about the mastering software.

There is alot of interesting stuff that can be done with music software to audio tracks if you have the time and prefer a cleaner mellower sound than what mp3 would sound like in a vehicle.


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