# No midbass response



## GroundLoop (Feb 11, 2015)

Have Eric Stevens full size horns and a pair of Eighteen Sound 6ND430 in the doors in fiberglass pods. Doors have some sound proofing but not done yet. For the source I have a Sony CDX-910 and Sony XDP210EQ 21 band digital eq going to a Hifonics VII Calisto. Midbass are powered by a HiFonics VII Thor and horns are powered by 2 channels of a HiFonics VII Jupiter. Gains on the Thor and Jupiter are turned all the way down. As many of you can probably tell all this equipment is well over 20 years old as is the car. Sound is VERY loud and clear but there is absolutely no midbass so it sounds flat. The digital eq has 18 bands for the front and 3 for the rear. Problem is the sub channels are controlled by the eq as well. If I crank the upper midbass bands up (90 and 150) then it has some midbass but still nothing like I am used to and it colors the sound of the subs a little. I can route the sub source around the dgital eq and sacrifice sub control through the radio but as I said even with the bands cranked up I was still dissapointed. The 6ND430's are supposed to have good response in the midbass range. I expected much more from them. Checked the speaker wire phase. Enclosures are fiberglass and securely attached to the door panels. Speakers are sealed well. Anything I can try to get more midbass?


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Well, 

A: Ditch the Eqs and get modern with your dsp. C-dsp or Dayton 408. Especially with horns that always need a ton of eq. 

B: You need a graph of your response so you know what it looks like. Right now you're just turning knobs and wondering why it doesn't sound right. Without a visual help, you're basically guessing in the dark. Buy a mic.

C: How big are these enclosures?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

im willing to bet that there is some decent midbass but the horns are putting out much more output and make it seem like theres not much there. 6 inch driver with a 92db sensitivity isnt going to match up well to full sized HLCD's. i also agree with Jsconye. do you have time alignment with the current setup? if not, the path length differences is also going to cause comb filtering which definitely wont help.


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

What is the volume of the midbass enclosures?
This drivers are Pro-audio drivers and got a bit higher Fs, so dont expect a lot of low freq from them,....it might be better to port your enclosures - more output in lower registers.


how the enclosures were treated inside - wool, damping plates, sonofil.....? Are enclosures airtight?
Are your drivers in phase, what is your x-o point for hi-pass,delays will made difference but not day/night responce wise..... I would turn off EQ at least up to 300-500Hz and start to tweak your crossover until you get some better result (RTA would help here so you can see the problems you cant hear.....)... maybe start with midbass drivers and optimize them to their max potential, and then proceed with horns and at the end with SW... Check polarity between midbass drivers (u can use small 1,5V battery to check out) and polarity between midbass and horns and midbass and SW..... - your aim is to get solid full range sound image in front of you.


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## Blu (Nov 3, 2008)

Sub'd


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

More likely you have peaks in 400-800 range that's masking your midbass response. Without seeing the freq response then everyone is just spit balling guesses.
Also check polarity on mids and subs. Maybe it's as simple as polarity is reversed on one and you're getting cancellation


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## GroundLoop (Feb 11, 2015)

Thanks for the responses. I should have been more clear. They are not sealed enclosures. I meant the seal between the speaker and the baffle is good. No air escaping. That will kill midbass. The enclosures vent into the doors.

I do have the Dayton Audio iMM-6 and the Android app. Have not tried it yet because not all the drivers are in yet. Very soon.....

I do have the 400 - 800 range down about 6 db's. And with the sub off and the 90 and 150 band maxed out at 12 IMO it is still lacking output in that range. With the test CD I have set to 50hz there is literally no driver movement.

Typing this I just thought of what the problem is... the sub crossover on the Sony EQ is set to 78hz. So there is a 12db roll off on the midbass. Will set that to the lowest freq tonight and bypass the eq on the sub.

Probably just going to go with the DSP so I can fix the time alignments and generally have more control of the system. Enter the 2000's!!!

Any other good DSP to look at besides the Dayton 408. That one looks good but would like to compare others.


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

I would unplug the sub and horns and see if you can get decent punch out of your mids on their own.

If you are satisfied with their performance the rest is just tuning.

They shouldn't be playing down to 50Hz anyway. 80-100Hz is reasonable.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> im willing to bet that there is some decent midbass but the horns are putting out much more output and make it seem like theres not much there. 6 inch driver with a 92db sensitivity isnt going to match up well to full sized HLCD's. i also agree with Jsconye. do you have time alignment with the current setup? if not, the path length differences is also going to cause comb filtering which definitely wont help.


A 92db w/m 6.5" is going to work just fine with HLCD once you level match them correctly.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

If the 6ND430 are mounted in sealed enclosures thats part of the problem or even most of it. They will perform well with an 80 Hz crossover using the door for the enclosure.

Some simple things to do would be reverse the polarity of just one midbass driver listen again. Next reverse the polarity of the subwoofer system listen again.You should be able to get it to sound decent with just phase, levels and crossover frequency. If you are using 12dB slopes its easy for the subwoofers to cancel out the midbass impact if they are out of phase with the midbass through the crossover region.

I do suggest getting a modern DSP for tuning it makes things much easier.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Eric Stevens said:


> A 92db w/m 6.5" is going to work just fine with HLCD once you level match them correctly.


anything will work with hlcd's after level matching. But i was putting my money on lack of level matching.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> anything will work with hlcd's after level matching. But i was putting my money on lack of level matching.


Agreed, most likely a tuning related problem.


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## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

the subs and midbasses maybe cancel each other. even if they are in phase acousticaly maybe out of phase.

have you shield the openings of you doors?there are openings behind the cardbboards

check this video https://youtu.be/h3EXuHlBy4M


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

I find that many people drastically overestimate the amount of midbass it takes to have a well tuned system. It seems everyone thinks that they lack midbass, and in most cases the speakers and power are perfectly fine. They just need to smooth the response a bit by level matching and a bit of EQ. Another thing is that people expect their midbasses to play too low, and don't let the sub do the heavy lifting. Even monster midbasses have no real need to play below about 80hz, I can see down to 60hz or so for some big 8's, but when a sub can play those frequencies much more easily, and still not be localizable, why not let the sub do it?


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

gijoe said:


> I find that many people drastically overestimate the amount of midbass it takes to have a well tuned system.


They also WAY overestimate how much power they need for the horns.


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## GroundLoop (Feb 11, 2015)

Turns out one midbass driver was out of phase. Fixing that made a substantial difference. But still seems shy on 80hz - 100hz. Going to purchase the minidsp 6x8.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

GroundLoop said:


> Turns out one midbass driver was out of phase. Fixing that made a substantial difference. But still seems shy on 80hz - 100hz. Going to purchase the minidsp 6x8.


I have a 6x8 for sale.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

GroundLoop said:


> Turns out one midbass driver was out of phase. Fixing that made a substantial difference. But still seems shy on 80hz - 100hz. Going to purchase the minidsp 6x8.


Now that you got the midbass drivers working better try reversing polarity of the subwoofers.


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## GroundLoop (Feb 11, 2015)

Will try reversing the polarity of the subs. Got a 6x8 from Jscoyne2. Going to enter the 2000's!!


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## GroundLoop (Feb 11, 2015)

Forgot I have an Audio Control Epicenter currently after the head unit going into the Sony EQ. Do I keep the Epicenter with the 6x8? I know it needs a full signal so it would have to go before the 6x8.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Prosound midbasses, like your 6ND430s, generally have a high FS and a low qts and a low qes.

This makes them sound "thin" when they're in a car door or a sealed box.

There's a couple ways to fix that:

1) put them in a ported box (difficult)

2) EQ them to extend the response (easy)

Put that microphone to work!


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## GroundLoop (Feb 11, 2015)

Been playing with the minidsp 6x8 and had a question. Could I keep the Sony 21 band eq for on the fly adjustments and replace the HiFonics Callisto with the minidsp 6x8. From a connection standpoint this would work out the best and from what I can see give the greatest amount of flexibility.


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## GroundLoop (Feb 11, 2015)

The "no midbass" mystery has been %100 solved. About 10 years ago I gave a friend of mine the Sony XDP eq that was in the Turbo TA since I was not using the car. About a year ago I pulled another Sony XDP from my Sony ES stash and installed it. Turns out the XDP has separate crossovers for both the high and low. I was always only changing the sub crossover thinking that was the only one - like most eq's. Turns out the person who had this eq before me had the low set to 78hz and the high (midbass) crossover set to 125hz. The XDP eq previously in the car was new and the default settings were low set to 78hz and I would assume/guess high set to flat. I set the high crossover on this eq to flat and the car sounds absolutely incredible. The HiFonics Callisto is still rolling the midbass off at 55hz. Tons of midbass up front. It is amazing how just fixing that makes the whole spectrum sound better. The highs sound crisper. Imaging and vocals with the horns are unbelievable. Still have not tuned it with the mic or installed the minidsp yet. I think I am going to keep the XDP and replace the Callisto with the minidsp. The high crossover setting is kind of hidden, you would not find it by accident. No, I never really read the directions that came with the eq until tonight.:laugh:


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