# Art Series Amps Thread Continued - Continued



## jmacdadd

Grizz Archer said:


> Actually, let be a bit more clear. We simply cannot to afford to pay Carolyn what she is worth.


You get what you pay for and if you're not willing to pay for it then you're just not going to get it.


----------



## jmacdadd

Grizz Archer said:


> While I really wanted to do this project, I do agree with you. When Jimmy Page and Robert Plant met earlier this year to discuss a reunion tour of Led Zeppelin, they both agreed that they set the bar too high and a tour could end up being disappointing. Art is done and gone forever...


The Art Series is not done nor is it gone forever...just because Epsilon won't be releasing a retro or classic "Art Series" version doesn't mean that the original Art Series won't continue to live on in infamy until the last of these legendary amps has finally released its mystical smoke.

To me and a lot of other classic enthusiasts, Precision Power Incorporated (PPI) is done and gone forever. It's an unfortunate truth.

What I find to be most interesting is that everyone knows that today's PPI isn't the same company that is once was yet the brand name still equates to quality due to the legendary amplifiers that were not only designed and engineered in the USA they were also made in the USA.

Class AB, Class D, Class T, etc. I don't care. I am willing to pay more if it means it's made in the USA and is helping to stabilize the weak economy in which we live our lives day in and day out.


----------



## PPI_GUY

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

JD, I don't think you're being fair to Grizz and Epsilon. He/they seem to honestly be trying to restore some of the former glory of P-P-I. Times change and so does the manufacturing process that brings audio products to market. As much as we would like to see the "Made In The USA" label on the new P-P-I stuff, it just isn't financially possible. I hate that as much as anyone but, it's the reality of the world we live in. 
Hopefully the new P-P-I does well, I really hope they do. It would be nice to hear the P-P-I name associated with quality car audio again. Plus, it would only make our old school Precision Power amps worth more!


----------



## putergod

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



PPI_GUY said:


> JD, I don't think you're being fair to Grizz and Epsilon. He/they seem to honestly be trying to restore some of the former glory of P-P-I. Times change and so does the manufacturing process that brings audio products to market. As much as we would like to see the "Made In The USA" label on the new P-P-I stuff, it just isn't financially possible. I hate that as much as anyone but, it's the reality of the world we live in.
> Hopefully the new P-P-I does well, I really hope they do. It would be nice to hear the P-P-I name associated with quality car audio again. Plus, it would only make our old school Precision Power amps worth more!



I respectively disagree. They aren't trying to do anything but make money off a name. Just like they did with SS.
PPI is dead.

And to continue this pathetic charade of "isn't financially possible" is just freaking annoying. We ALL know that it most certainly IS "financially possible". If it wasn't, then please tell me how Mmats does it? Or Harrison Labs? How bout the first brand to die, and revive while STAYING American - Linear Power (granted, still in prototype/build phase, but very promising)? What about the brands like Zapco that still build high quality American made products, but release a run of the mill, massed produced, Chinese made piece of crap for those of YOU that "don't think it's financially possible" (translation: too damn cheap to buy quality products that keep Americans employed.)?

Keep buying your Chinese crap. Eventually it will die. MUCH sooner than my American made amplifiers will. And when it's time to upgrade my amps that, currently, average 12-15 years old, it'll be with Harrison Labs or Mmats. At least I know all their amps are built in America, and don't appear to have any plans at ever changing that.


----------



## PPI_GUY

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

Fair enough putergod. But, can you state with confidence that 100% of the components of an Mmats or Harrison SL amp are made in the US as well? I'm talking EVERYTHING from the rca jacks to the speaker output lugs and all inbetween. 
Can you also prove that any amp currently being produced in the US is better or will last longer than those from overseas. By the way, it is my understanding that the new SS and P-P-I stuff is being made in S. Korea. 

Sitting here beside my computer are a pair of the new JayElle XD amps. One is a 400/4 and the other is a 600/1. I picked them up to try after reading review after review about how great they sound. They are TINY and all class D, highly efficient and very flexible. The boxes say Made In China on them. According to Grizz, P-P-I will release their own version of a small Class D series of amps later in 2011. I think they will be called the Phantom series.

So, I have to ask where is the innovation from American manufacturers? Are Mmats and Harrison working with efficient, fast switching D class topology in an affordable, ultra small footprint?

Sure, P-P-I and SS are making money off the name recognition but, if that is truely all they were interested in, would they be introducing new products with better, more efficient designs that reflect the wants and needs of a changing market? Or would they be content to offer only retread products that bring very little new to the table?

Don't get me wrong, I fully support American manufacturers and I respect your stance on keeping jobs in the US. But, things have shifted since the early 90's. For awhile alot of bad products were imported into this country but, manufacturing and quality control isn't solely the domain of American companies anymore. That's not to say American products have slipped as much as foreign production has caught up. And now they do it cheaper than it can be done in the US. Grizz has stated here and in other threads that they would love to have their products made in the US but, it isn't feasible from a cost standpoint. Are you saying he is lying about that? I seriously doubt that.


----------



## starboy869

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

Chinese products will never die. simple as that

People want cheap


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

We most certainly would pay for her, the problem is that customers will not. Some of the finest amps that ever existed are gone now because people will not pay premium price. This topic is gotten sold old on so many threads. Companies will not venture into super high end American products until they can see that the market will pay for it, AND until there is a reason quality-wise... The war is freaking over, China wins. Yes, there are a few American products out there, and that is great. But for a really big company, it is just not feasible. They can hit a niche. We are not that kind of company. We want BIG revenue. On the same token, we dropped Van Gogh, DaVinci, Human Reign and other series because there is no money in it. We actually closed out Human Reign last year. Now everybody wants it again. We feel that Reference and Power Class are truly phenomenal amps, and have yet to have any negative feedback, except for the occasional ******** know-it-all that has never even used one. 

It would be fun to take a poll of all of the people that refuse to buy anything not American made, and see what kind of car they drive... LOL

I am actually working on some product for 2012 that will be made in America. But I would not waste my time doing it for car audio... If the internet every becomes illegal, that being eBay, online whore shops and the like, I'll dive in head first...


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



putergod said:


> I respectively disagree. They aren't trying to do anything but make money off a name. Just like they did with SS.
> PPI is dead.
> 
> And to continue this pathetic charade of "isn't financially possible" is just freaking annoying. We ALL know that it most certainly IS "financially possible". If it wasn't, then please tell me how Mmats does it? Or Harrison Labs? How bout the first brand to die, and revive while STAYING American - Linear Power (granted, still in prototype/build phase, but very promising)? What about the brands like Zapco that still build high quality American made products, but release a run of the mill, massed produced, Chinese made piece of crap for those of YOU that "don't think it's financially possible" (translation: too damn cheap to buy quality products that keep Americans employed.)?
> 
> Keep buying your Chinese crap. Eventually it will die. MUCH sooner than my American made amplifiers will. And when it's time to upgrade my amps that, currently, average 12-15 years old, it'll be with Harrison Labs or Mmats. At least I know all their amps are built in America, and don't appear to have any plans at ever changing that.


FYI, American made does not always mean quality and reliability. Taken from your above post, Harrison Labs has been known for reliability issues. American price with less than chinese build is really a bad business philosophy. I don't know how reliable their amp has become but in the past, they weren't... 

Kelvin 

PS: not making this up there's quite a few threads on the matter, even here on DIYMA if you take the time to search


----------



## jmacdadd

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



Grizz Archer said:


> We most certainly would pay for her, the problem is that customers will not. Some of the finest amps that ever existed are gone now because people will not pay premium price. This topic is gotten sold old on so many threads. Companies will not venture into super high end American products until they can see that the market will pay for it, AND until there is a reason quality-wise... The war is freaking over, China wins. Yes, there are a few American products out there, and that is great. But for a really big company, it is just not feasible. They can hit a niche. We are not that kind of company. We want BIG revenue. On the same token, we dropped Van Gogh, DaVinci, Human Reign and other series because there is no money in it. We actually closed out Human Reign last year. Now everybody wants it again. *We feel* that Reference and Power Class are truly phenomenal amps, and have yet to have any negative feedback, except for the occasional ******** know-it-all that has never even used one.
> 
> It would be fun to take a poll of all of the people that refuse to buy anything not American made, and see what kind of car they drive... LOL
> 
> I am actually working on some product for 2012 that will be made in America. But I would not waste my time doing it for car audio... If the internet every becomes illegal, that being eBay, online whore shops and the like, I'll dive in head first...


The PPI buy appears to have been for the name brand recognition *only* and *not* to rebuild what was a once strong company. There is nothing to me that sets PPI today apart from Lanzar/Pyle/Pyramid/etc. If I am going to buy junk I am going to spend the least amount possible for it.

I understand that technology has changed and that's great. However, show me one Class D sub amp that does NOT have a built in crossover, boost or subsonic filter so I can compare it to any of my old school amplifiers. If you turn the onboard processing from a 2400 watt Class D amp you are going to be left with 100 watts of power. If all of the power comes from the onboard processing what is the amp really doing?

I don't need lights in my amp. I don't need subs with a painted or powder coated frames/baskets. I don't need colorful packaging or a flashy manual for that matter. Every penny that gets put into these pieces of the puzzle I am going to pay least a nickel for (most likely a quarter since this is BIG money) and they aren't making the product function any better or last any longer. Keep it simple...give me a photo copied manual and plain cardboard box.

Please, someone, point in the right direction to a thread that is glorifying how good today's Power Class amps are because I cannot find one and I have been looking. I haven't even seen any Amazon reviews. I did see a review on this forum on the 3-way components and it definitely wasn't screaming phenomenal.

I am only here to express my opinion and reminisce about the glory days of car audio that have apparently come and gone. Aside from the high quality sound output these classic old school A/B amps can provide, they don't consume that much current draw from my electrical system compared to these "efficient" Class D monsters.

And, for the record, I own three cars at the moment, and as far as I can tell, they were all made in the USA...'88 Dodge Omni (my vintage ride), '99 Blazer ZR2 (my offroad ride) and an '04 Buick Rendezvous (my sweet ride). Sign me up for the "Made in America" poll. If anyone is still paying attention, I am currently looking for an '88 S-10 regular cab short box for my next project...keep me posted!

I don't think it was a fair fight by the way. It definitely wasn't a war so China couldn't win. Apparently the towel was thrown in due to big companies chasing big profits. What I don't understand is why the manufacturing technology can't be moved to the US so the same amps could be manufactured here? I'll just keep buying lottery tickets so some day I can start my own company and learn the hard way but at least try to do it right.

Maybe I will stop wasting *my* time raving about my love of quality US made mobile audio since there isn't enough need for it these days.


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



jmacdadd said:


> The PPI buy appears to have been for the name brand recognition *only* and *not* to rebuild what was a once strong company. There is nothing to me that sets PPI today apart from Lanzar/Pyle/Pyramid/etc. If I am going to buy junk I am going to spend the least amount possible for it.
> 
> I understand that technology has changed and that's great. However, show me one Class D sub amp that does NOT have a built in crossover, boost or subsonic filter so I can compare it to any of my old school amplifiers. If you turn the onboard processing from a 2400 watt Class D amp you are going to be left with 100 watts of power. If all of the power comes from the onboard processing what is the amp really doing?
> 
> I don't need lights in my amp. I don't need subs with a painted or powder coated frames/baskets. I don't need colorful packaging or a flashy manual for that matter. Every penny that gets put into these pieces of the puzzle I am going to pay least a nickel for (most likely a quarter since this is BIG money) and they aren't making the product function any better or last any longer. Keep it simple...give me a photo copied manual and plain cardboard box.
> 
> Please, someone, point in the right direction to a thread that is glorifying how good today's Power Class amps are because I cannot find one and I have been looking. I haven't even seen any Amazon reviews. I did see a review on this forum on the 3-way components and it definitely wasn't screaming phenomenal.
> 
> I am only here to express my opinion and reminisce about the glory days of car audio that have apparently come and gone. Aside from the high quality sound output these classic old school A/B amps can provide, they don't consume that much current draw from my electrical system compared to these "efficient" Class D monsters.
> 
> And, for the record, I own three cars at the moment, and as far as I can tell, they were all made in the USA...'88 Dodge Omni (my vintage ride), '99 Blazer ZR2 (my offroad ride) and an '04 Buick Rendezvous (my sweet ride). Sign me up for the "Made in America" poll. If anyone is still paying attention, I am currently looking for an '88 S-10 regular cab short box for my next project...keep me posted!
> 
> I don't think it was a fair fight by the way. It definitely wasn't a war so China couldn't win. Apparently the towel was thrown in due to big companies chasing big profits. What I don't understand is why the manufacturing technology can't be moved to the US so the same amps could be manufactured here? I'll just keep buying lottery tickets so some day I can start my own company and learn the hard way but at least try to do it right.
> 
> Maybe I will stop wasting *my* time raving about my love of quality US made mobile audio since there isn't enough need for it these days.


Why dont you and that other idiot that CLEARY DO NOT UNDERSTAND OR GET IT go start your own dumb ass thread?????????? Go AWAY! what is exactly your trying to add to this thread? You dont like where its going then get the **** out!

You go ahead and win the lottery and "do it right" with your "business" knowledge that you are clearly showing you wont last long enough for the paint to dry before you out on your ass! 
Why dont they move the manufacturing over here???? Think about it (I'll give you a hint because I am such a nice guy.....Its been said here about ten thousand times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) It starts with MO and ends in NEY. There are a small AND I MEAN SMALL amount of people willing to pay the money for "made in usa" and that niche is filled. Any other company looking to add themselves to that list is giving themselves about a 90% fail rate! Those companys have been mentioned already and are great companys but that doesnt lessen the quality of any other brand! If you think it does then go put your helmet on!
You need to understand there is a hell of a lot more then good intentions involved in business and if you think anyone is in it for anything other then the money your insane! 

THE NAME PPI (and that all it is....its 3 f'ing letters and nothing more) has to have a made in usa sticker to be great then I feel bad for your disturbing amount of ignorance. Cant find any reviews on them? (new powerclass?) Why dont you go buy one, try it out and then speak? Until then shut the **** up! You sound like a complete ass talking about pyramid and ppi when you fully admit that you havent touched one (but your going to base it on some dumb ass review???? WOW!) 
You go ahead and try and relive the "glory days" Dont get involved with NEW! It doesnt matter who owns the company, what they charge for the amp, or where its made. People are going to hate just because its not the original. THATS INSANITY! I have used several of the new ppi/ss products and I can tell you first hand they are fantastic pieces of electronics PERIOD! You wouldnt get it because you have a preconcived notion that wont allow you to understand or accept it. I personally find the original arts pretty overated today. Seriously...they were great amps (in the 90s) Yes they were built GREAT. Are they any better then the hcca, audio art, xs, refs???? NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT! 

You guys make me sick! Just no sense between you. I really just dont get what part of any of this you dont get. Made in USA is not longer the pinacle, its not financially reasonable to be made in the states (unless you only want 5 companys to choose from across the globe? on a side note what do you think of Brax, Audison, Sinfoni since they dont share the american flag?) but of course then you will expect to get paid 6 figures to work there even if its to sweep the floors, complain about the prices charged vs. what you make (because you obviously dont know whats involved in business expenses), and then when the have to hire illegals to work in your place that will really help the country out!, Now after all that.....when you realize the mass of audio consumers in this country spend on there whole system the cost of one of those amps, you would soon be closed! Why do think Zapco and Mmats are not the only audio companys on the planet? 
So next time you keyboard hero's decide to talk **** about products and processes you know nothing about and then ask (I know your not really asking...I know you dont want to accept the real answers) why its not done........Come back and read this! THIS IS WHY!


----------



## JAX

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

someone needs a beer ! lol . understand what or who your talking to..its ok. 

if people still want to believe crap that no longer is irrelevant then thats their choice. 

I have had enough amps to know none of that matters and the only real way to know is by experience. 

case in point : your amps Justin are made in malaysia. are you happy with them? yes . 

did you get your moneys worth? yes. 

it does get old with the idea that you get what you pay for. these days you actually get more than you used to pay for but for less.

have a good night and dont worry. people who have closed minds will just pay more for what they think is better even if its not. 

yes the old days were the best in some respects but it doesnt mean all things now are crap.

I got an amp right now that is made in USA or is supposed to be and I am not that impressed and havnt installed it. does it mean its junk I dont know but I will find out and keep it or sell it. 

I will be keeping my made in malaysia amp I am pretty sure cause its cost per performance will probably be hard to match


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



JAX said:


> someone needs a beer ! lol . understand what or who your talking to..its ok.
> 
> if people still want to believe crap that no longer is irrelevant then thats their choice.
> 
> I have had enough amps to know none of that matters and the only real way to know is by experience.
> 
> case in point : your amps Justin are made in malaysia. are you happy with them? yes .
> 
> did you get your moneys worth? yes.
> 
> it does get old with the idea that you get what you pay for. these days you actually get more than you used to pay for but for less.
> 
> have a good night and dont worry. people who have closed minds will just pay more for what they think is better even if its not.
> 
> yes the old days were the best in some respects but it doesnt mean all things now are crap.
> 
> I got an amp right now that is made in USA or is supposed to be and I am not that impressed and havnt installed it. does it mean its junk I dont know but I will find out and keep it or sell it.
> 
> I will be keeping my made in malaysia amp I am pretty sure cause its cost per performance will probably be hard to match


LOL....Thanks Mike! I am just so sick of the same dumb ass statements over and over and over here. There is just no reasoning behind it! 
I love my Malaysia amps! I dont give a rats ass where its made. If its good its good. Stickers dont mean ****! I would love to put my $ in made in america its just not realistic...I did make an effort to support a VERY local company I feel pretty good about that. Just like I felt good about buying SS/PPI.....I dont want Grizz to loose his job either. Its more then manufacturing that make jobs

FYI.....The beers have been opened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## ChrisB

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

I was once a firm believer in old school, made in the USA amplifiers myself. Like Jax, I went through a sh*t ton of amplifiers, only to realize that the amplifier is the LEAST important part of the equation. Of course, I do run some made in Louisiana amplifiers, but that is due to the fact that I like the product, respect the person who designed them, and I like the fact that they are made here in Louisiana. 

Now, with that written, I'd have no problems using an Asian or Brazilian manufactured amplifier in my vehicle. Why? Because dollar for dollar, your money goes a lot further with the imported amplifier compared to a domestically produced amplifier.


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



Grizz Archer said:


> We most certainly would pay for her, the problem is that customers will not. Some of the finest amps that ever existed are gone now because people will not pay premium price. This topic is gotten sold old on so many threads. Companies will not venture into super high end American products until they can see that the market will pay for it, AND until there is a reason quality-wise... The war is freaking over, China wins. Yes, there are a few American products out there, and that is great. But for a really big company, it is just not feasible. They can hit a niche. We are not that kind of company. We want BIG revenue. On the same token, we dropped Van Gogh, DaVinci, Human Reign and other series because there is no money in it. We actually closed out Human Reign last year. Now everybody wants it again. We feel that Reference and Power Class are truly phenomenal amps, and have yet to have any negative feedback, except for the occasional ******** know-it-all that has never even used one.
> 
> It would be fun to take a poll of all of the people that refuse to buy anything not American made, and see what kind of car they drive... LOL
> 
> I am actually working on some product for 2012 that will be made in America. But I would not waste my time doing it for car audio... If the internet every becomes illegal, that being eBay, online whore shops and the like, I'll dive in head first...


Dear Grizz,
Chiming in on a minor detail... For the record, I would like to remind you that it takes more than money to "pay for her." 

I remind you that I contributed my heart, time and resources for years to Old PPI, for no compensation, and initially with no contract or even an illusion of the potential for repayment. It was an unusual and exciting creative opportunity, for which I gladly volunteered.

Jeff Scoon had, and still has, a talent to inspire people to excel. Later, when PPI was making real money, I was paid, but not in proportion to my efforts, my prior track record, my investment, or even current design industry standards. I repeat, nobody did it for the money. Most of us could have profited more by doing just about anything other than working with PPI.

Additionally, Grizz, you probably remember exactly how much (or little) the owners of Epsilon valued my work. Really, I was grateful that you were asked to offer me an amount that caused both of us to laugh. While I am sorry that you were put in such an embarrassing position, I appreciated that the sum was too trivial for me to need to justify the cost of my rather inconvenient code of honor, (my inner bottom line), to Warren and my future heirs. 

You might remember our first conversation, when you called to apologize during the Brimer debacle, I said, "First you start with 'I'm sorry', then 'please' and 'thank you'." Epsilon slipped out of a potentially expensive situation simply because you said "I'm sorry, please and thank you." Courtesy is free, easy and usually effective. Your company should be grateful for your adept handling the infringement of my copyright for them. I hope that is not forgotten. 

Grizz, I understand your goal here, but, it is difficult for me to to comprehend the statement: "We most certainly would pay for her, the problem is that customers will not." 

This sentence mades some confusing assertions which may be misleading, including a refutable allusion to my willingness to be be purchased. I know you didn't mean it that way, but that is how it read.

I hope all is well with you and your family. My best to Angela.
with love, chy

P.S. Regarding the rather and continuing debate on off shore manufacturing versus made in the USA: We have outsourced out a huge portion of our country's manufacturing capabilities, which is stimulating a higher standard of living in China and other manufacturing centers. Wages are already rising, there, increasing the cost of off shore production to the point that either we will have to deal with higher price tags, or we will become more creative in building more effective, stateside production. I propose we rekindle our ingenuity sooner, rather than later. IMHO


----------



## Darth SQ

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

Grizz, I understand your goal here, but, it is difficult for me to to comprehend the statement: "We most certainly would pay for her, the problem is that customers will not." 

This sentence mades some confusing assertions which may be misleading, including a refutable allusion to my willingness to be be purchased. I know you didn't mean it that way, but that is how it read.

I hope all is well with you and your family. My best to Angela.
with love, chy

P.S. Regarding the rather and continuing debate on off shore manufacturing versus made in the USA: We have outsourced out a huge portion of our country's manufacturing capabilities, which is stimulating a higher standard of living in China and other manufacturing centers. Wages are already rising, there, increasing the cost of off shore production to the point that either we will have to deal with higher price tags, or we will become more creative in building more effective, stateside production. I propose we rekindle our ingenuity sooner, rather than later. IMHO[/QUOTE]

*BRILLIANT!!!!
You just gotta love CHY
GRIZZ...FINISH THE DAMN CONTEST!!!!*
Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## edouble101

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

Grizz Archer, I have a request.

Make us amplifiers with solid reliable power without crossover/eq functions


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> *BRILLIANT!!!!
> You just gotta love CHY
> GRIZZ...FINISH THE DAMN CONTEST!!!!*
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Uh, Bret...
"Brilliant" might be a bit of an overstatement. I was just trying to be gentle, yet clear. 

Were you referring to my current exorbitant purchase price or my "off shore" comments? Warren thinks I am a great value. 

Tonight, I have been fantasizing about upping my imaginary price to do phantom work in a field from which I barely escaped with my life... 
especially since I am now classifiable as "Vintage." What do you think?
xxoo chy


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



jmacdadd said:


> The PPI buy appears to have been for the name brand recognition *only* and *not* to rebuild what was a once strong company. There is nothing to me that sets PPI today apart from Lanzar/Pyle/Pyramid/etc. If I am going to buy junk I am going to spend the least amount possible for it.
> 
> I understand that technology has changed and that's great. However, show me one Class D sub amp that does NOT have a built in crossover, boost or subsonic filter so I can compare it to any of my old school amplifiers. If you turn the onboard processing from a 2400 watt Class D amp you are going to be left with 100 watts of power. If all of the power comes from the onboard processing what is the amp really doing?
> 
> I don't need lights in my amp. I don't need subs with a painted or powder coated frames/baskets. I don't need colorful packaging or a flashy manual for that matter. Every penny that gets put into these pieces of the puzzle I am going to pay least a nickel for (most likely a quarter since this is BIG money) and they aren't making the product function any better or last any longer. Keep it simple...give me a photo copied manual and plain cardboard box.
> 
> Please, someone, point in the right direction to a thread that is glorifying how good today's Power Class amps are because I cannot find one and I have been looking. I haven't even seen any Amazon reviews. I did see a review on this forum on the 3-way components and it definitely wasn't screaming phenomenal.
> 
> I am only here to express my opinion and reminisce about the glory days of car audio that have apparently come and gone. Aside from the high quality sound output these classic old school A/B amps can provide, they don't consume that much current draw from my electrical system compared to these "efficient" Class D monsters. Not seeing the difference doesn't mean there is no difference  You might have a good charing system out of your car
> 
> And, for the record, I own three cars at the moment, and as far as I can tell, they were all made in the USA...'88 Dodge Omni (my vintage ride), '99 Blazer ZR2 (my offroad ride) and an '04 Buick Rendezvous (my sweet ride). Sign me up for the "Made in America" poll. If anyone is still paying attention, I am currently looking for an '88 S-10 regular cab short box for my next project...keep me posted!
> 
> I don't think it was a fair fight by the way. It definitely wasn't a war so China couldn't win. Apparently the towel was thrown in due to big companies chasing big profits. What I don't understand is why the manufacturing technology can't be moved to the US so the same amps could be manufactured here? I'll just keep buying lottery tickets so some day I can start my own company and learn the hard way but at least try to do it right.
> 
> Maybe I will stop wasting *my* time raving about my love of quality US made mobile audio since there isn't enough need for it these days.


I kind of understand why you want "Made in USA" products, I really do (I'm not American but I can understand your point of view). However as said earlier "Made in USA" doesn't mean "reliable". 

Another point, you need to try some new products before speaking badly about it. New technology is not the devil. Even though it's made in Asia, it can be a good product. 
Here's a few comparison, other than the freq response of the Zapco, I see no reason to go "old school" other than the nostalgia factor - The Arc Audio is a better product. 
Arc Audio
PG









Really small translation: 
Fattore Di Smorzamento = Damping Factor 
Rapporto Segnale/Rumore Pesato "A" = S/N Ratio "A" rated 
Rendimento = Efficiency 
Assorbimento Massimo = Max Drawing (Amperage) 


Kelvin 

PS: I would like to apologize for the Zapco coz I couldn't upload the .pdf file :blush:


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



subwoofery said:


> FYI, American made does not always mean quality and reliability. Taken from your above post, Harrison Labs has been known for reliability issues. American price with less than chinese build is really a bad business philosophy. I don't know how reliable their amp has become but in the past, they weren't...
> 
> Kelvin
> 
> PS: not making this up there's quite a few threads on the matter, even here on DIYMA if you take the time to search


Can I buy you a beer for actually getting it?! lol Common sense is never overrated, but sometimes hard to come by...


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



Grizz Archer said:


> Can I buy you a beer for actually getting it?! lol Common sense is never overrated, but sometimes hard to come by...


When I'll come back to US, I'll plan a get together around beers and peanuts  

Kelvin


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



PPI_GUY said:


> JD, I don't think you're being fair to Grizz and Epsilon. He/they seem to honestly be trying to restore some of the former glory of P-P-I. Times change and so does the manufacturing process that brings audio products to market. As much as we would like to see the "Made In The USA" label on the new P-P-I stuff, it just isn't financially possible. I hate that as much as anyone but, it's the reality of the world we live in.
> Hopefully the new P-P-I does well, I really hope they do. It would be nice to hear the P-P-I name associated with quality car audio again. Plus, it would only make our old school Precision Power amps worth more!


So, how does it feel to have a good open mind? lol We are trying hard, but the fact is that we will not pleas everybody. The older a company is, the more OS people that will not be happy, even though they cannot prove why. For every 1 guy willing to spend whatever it takes to get the ultimate amps, there are thousands not willing to do so.

Doesn't this whole topic just drive you mad?! I need to save a word file of common sense reply that I can just copy/paste. But hey, it's friday night, I have been to the brewery with some close friends, and now I am hanging with Captain Morgan. Might as well waste some time... lol


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



putergod said:


> I respectively disagree. They aren't trying to do anything but make money off a name. Just like they did with SS.
> PPI is dead.
> 
> And to continue this pathetic charade of "isn't financially possible" is just freaking annoying. We ALL know that it most certainly IS "financially possible". If it wasn't, then please tell me how Mmats does it? Or Harrison Labs? How bout the first brand to die, and revive while STAYING American - Linear Power (granted, still in prototype/build phase, but very promising)? What about the brands like Zapco that still build high quality American made products, but release a run of the mill, massed produced, Chinese made piece of crap for those of YOU that "don't think it's financially possible" (translation: too damn cheap to buy quality products that keep Americans employed.)?
> 
> Keep buying your Chinese crap. Eventually it will die. MUCH sooner than my American made amplifiers will. And when it's time to upgrade my amps that, currently, average 12-15 years old, it'll be with Harrison Labs or Mmats. At least I know all their amps are built in America, and don't appear to have any plans at ever changing that.


Interesting. You are correct. We make a buttload of money on SS. We also have set many world titles in SPL and are just getting back into the SQ arena where we got a championship last SBN. We are a business and we are not here to please he few audiophiles that demand USA products, although I'll be the first to admit that I am on board if is ever becomes realistic for the mass market.

Harrison Labs - Cool stuff but not up to date on them. LP - way cool stuff. But AGAIN, we are in two different markets. I talked to them a bit recently. Nice guys - we plan to meet at SBN next month. They seem to be going after the USA niche, while we are targeting global sales. I suppose neither is better than the other, but that just is not our market. We sell ungodly amounts of products world wide and are in a huge expansion mode right now. Is that their goal. Probably not. I am guessing that they are taking their reputation and using that to sell to people that hate products that are not American made. I would if I were them. 

Zapco... Again, great product, but we are a much, much bigger company and are not going after their business.

So you said this... "(translation: too damn cheap to buy quality products that keep Americans employed.)?" Really man? Do you think that all of the parts in their products are made here?! Do you think that Chevy, Ford and Dodge refuse to buy parts from China, Mexico, etc?!?!?!?! That is just insanity. For the most part we all use the same quality parts., Some may use a T03 transistor, or a different MOSFET, but what you are talking about is American labor. I drive a Jeep. What do you drive? Do you think that American everything is better than foreign products? 

I respect you desire to buy American products, I really do, and if everybody in America bought only American products, including food, VEHICLES, et cetera, that would be HUGE for our crappy economy, but I do not see that happening...


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



starboy869 said:


> Chinese products will never die. simple as that
> 
> People want cheap


Wow. Rude, crude, and straight to the point. The sad fact is that you are 99% correct. The other 1% whines to me for a hobby... But in their defense, I want the best of everything for a dollar as well. Ain't gonna happen...


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



jmacdadd said:


> The PPI buy appears to have been for the name brand recognition *only* and *not* to rebuild what was a once strong company. There is nothing to me that sets PPI today apart from Lanzar/Pyle/Pyramid/etc. If I am going to buy junk I am going to spend the least amount possible for it.
> 
> I understand that technology has changed and that's great. However, show me one Class D sub amp that does NOT have a built in crossover, boost or subsonic filter so I can compare it to any of my old school amplifiers. If you turn the onboard processing from a 2400 watt Class D amp you are going to be left with 100 watts of power. If all of the power comes from the onboard processing what is the amp really doing?
> 
> I don't need lights in my amp. I don't need subs with a painted or powder coated frames/baskets. I don't need colorful packaging or a flashy manual for that matter. Every penny that gets put into these pieces of the puzzle I am going to pay least a nickel for (most likely a quarter since this is BIG money) and they aren't making the product function any better or last any longer. Keep it simple...give me a photo copied manual and plain cardboard box.
> 
> Please, someone, point in the right direction to a thread that is glorifying how good today's Power Class amps are because I cannot find one and I have been looking. I haven't even seen any Amazon reviews. I did see a review on this forum on the 3-way components and it definitely wasn't screaming phenomenal.
> 
> I am only here to express my opinion and reminisce about the glory days of car audio that have apparently come and gone. Aside from the high quality sound output these classic old school A/B amps can provide, they don't consume that much current draw from my electrical system compared to these "efficient" Class D monsters.
> 
> And, for the record, I own three cars at the moment, and as far as I can tell, they were all made in the USA...'88 Dodge Omni (my vintage ride), '99 Blazer ZR2 (my offroad ride) and an '04 Buick Rendezvous (my sweet ride). Sign me up for the "Made in America" poll. If anyone is still paying attention, I am currently looking for an '88 S-10 regular cab short box for my next project...keep me posted!
> 
> I don't think it was a fair fight by the way. It definitely wasn't a war so China couldn't win. Apparently the towel was thrown in due to big companies chasing big profits. What I don't understand is why the manufacturing technology can't be moved to the US so the same amps could be manufactured here? I'll just keep buying lottery tickets so some day I can start my own company and learn the hard way but at least try to do it right.
> 
> Maybe I will stop wasting *my* time raving about my love of quality US made mobile audio since there isn't enough need for it these days.


It is actually really simple... The technology is here. We are the freaking USA man! Of course we have the technology. The issue is labor. I got to China every year. The workers have an apartment on the factory grounds. They eat for cheap at the cafeteria. They work hard and take tremendous pride in their work. The cost of living their is a small fraction of what it is here. Ergo, the cost to manufacturer their is alot cheaper. Hell, it is almost cheaper to send product to China for repair, rather than to pay a good technician to repair it here. We, as Americans, demand alot of money for quality work. The Chinese work harder and are crazy grateful just to have a job. And if you have a minute, check their unemployment rate compared to ours. Not picking on you, but DUH! Let me weight the options...

1. Pay high labor for American labor
2. Have a smarter, mor accurate computer do it for less money.

I know how bad that sounds, but that is reality folks... Grizz did not decide to make products in China. American labor decided this! 

And to say that you only want to "reminisce" is BS. Do not try to candy coat that fact that you do not like us now. Your opinion is valid to you and that is fine. But you are not trying to talk about the good ol' days, you are here to bash on the new days. Again, that is fine and your opinion. But I am still not privy to what new products you have used and how exactly they are inferior. 

Funny thought that just hit me... I was reorganizing my shop today and noticed a product from one of the most respected audio companies. Rather than say "Made In China", it said "Proudly Made In China". And get this, this was a... Nevermind. Just some company in either America or Europe that nobody can deny their quality. I suppose they suck no too?


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



rexroadj said:


> Why dont you and that other idiot that CLEARY DO NOT UNDERSTAND OR GET IT go start your own dumb ass thread?????????? Go AWAY! what is exactly your trying to add to this thread? You dont like where its going then get the **** out!
> 
> You go ahead and win the lottery and "do it right" with your "business" knowledge that you are clearly showing you wont last long enough for the paint to dry before you out on your ass!
> Why dont they move the manufacturing over here???? Think about it (I'll give you a hint because I am such a nice guy.....Its been said here about ten thousand times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) It starts with MO and ends in NEY. There are a small AND I MEAN SMALL amount of people willing to pay the money for "made in usa" and that niche is filled. Any other company looking to add themselves to that list is giving themselves about a 90% fail rate! Those companys have been mentioned already and are great companys but that doesnt lessen the quality of any other brand! If you think it does then go put your helmet on!
> You need to understand there is a hell of a lot more then good intentions involved in business and if you think anyone is in it for anything other then the money your insane!
> 
> THE NAME PPI (and that all it is....its 3 f'ing letters and nothing more) has to have a made in usa sticker to be great then I feel bad for your disturbing amount of ignorance. Cant find any reviews on them? (new powerclass?) Why dont you go buy one, try it out and then speak? Until then shut the **** up! You sound like a complete ass talking about pyramid and ppi when you fully admit that you havent touched one (but your going to base it on some dumb ass review???? WOW!)
> You go ahead and try and relive the "glory days" Dont get involved with NEW! It doesnt matter who owns the company, what they charge for the amp, or where its made. People are going to hate just because its not the original. THATS INSANITY! I have used several of the new ppi/ss products and I can tell you first hand they are fantastic pieces of electronics PERIOD! You wouldnt get it because you have a preconcived notion that wont allow you to understand or accept it. I personally find the original arts pretty overated today. Seriously...they were great amps (in the 90s) Yes they were built GREAT. Are they any better then the hcca, audio art, xs, refs???? NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT!
> 
> You guys make me sick! Just no sense between you. I really just dont get what part of any of this you dont get. Made in USA is not longer the pinacle, its not financially reasonable to be made in the states (unless you only want 5 companys to choose from across the globe? on a side note what do you think of Brax, Audison, Sinfoni since they dont share the american flag?) but of course then you will expect to get paid 6 figures to work there even if its to sweep the floors, complain about the prices charged vs. what you make (because you obviously dont know whats involved in business expenses), and then when the have to hire illegals to work in your place that will really help the country out!, Now after all that.....when you realize the mass of audio consumers in this country spend on there whole system the cost of one of those amps, you would soon be closed! Why do think Zapco and Mmats are not the only audio companys on the planet?
> So next time you keyboard hero's decide to talk **** about products and processes you know nothing about and then ask (I know your not really asking...I know you dont want to accept the real answers) why its not done........Come back and read this! THIS IS WHY!


I love you man! NOT because you even mentioned PPI, but because you are talking about 12V as a whole. If your post was in a RF, LP, Zapco or JBL thread, it would make no difference. You love high end, and would love American made product, BUT YOU STILL GET IT. This is not about PPI, Soundstream or any brand. it is about Economincs and some people will never understand. But at least they want USA products and do not swear by something made in some other country. Can't disrespect wanting American products, but can't fix cynical thought processing either...


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



JAX said:


> someone needs a beer ! lol . understand what or who your talking to..its ok.
> 
> if people still want to believe crap that no longer is irrelevant then thats their choice.
> 
> I have had enough amps to know none of that matters and the only real way to know is by experience.
> 
> case in point : your amps Justin are made in malaysia. are you happy with them? yes .
> 
> did you get your moneys worth? yes.
> 
> it does get old with the idea that you get what you pay for. these days you actually get more than you used to pay for but for less.
> 
> have a good night and dont worry. people who have closed minds will just pay more for what they think is better even if its not.
> 
> yes the old days were the best in some respects but it doesnt mean all things now are crap.
> 
> I got an amp right now that is made in USA or is supposed to be and I am not that impressed and havnt installed it. does it mean its junk I dont know but I will find out and keep it or sell it.
> 
> I will be keeping my made in malaysia amp I am pretty sure cause its cost per performance will probably be hard to match


You made me smile...


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



ChrisB said:


> I was once a firm believer in old school, made in the USA amplifiers myself. Like Jax, I went through a sh*t ton of amplifiers, only to realize that the amplifier is the LEAST important part of the equation. Of course, I do run some made in Louisiana amplifiers, but that is due to the fact that I like the product, respect the person who designed them, and I like the fact that they are made here in Louisiana.
> 
> Now, with that written, I'd have no problems using an Asian or Brazilian manufactured amplifier in my vehicle. Why? Because dollar for dollar, your money goes a lot further with the imported amplifier compared to a domestically produced amplifier.


Holy crap! Another guy who gets it! We need to start a posse! So, you are saying that you have American amps, but are NOT a closed minded gumby that does not understand why products are made in China? What a concept! You really get it! GOD BLESS YOU!!! Ummm, I probably should not be on here anymore. Catching a bit of a buzz and I do not want to say what I would love to at times... Oh well, I never claimed to be the most professional person in the industry. I am still a car audio fanatic and love to interact with most people. If people do not like reality or my unbiased opinion, I could care less. I do not gat paid for surveys. I love this industry and just want to keep it real. Holy crap, that was Captain Morgan talking...


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



Carolyn Hall Young said:


> Dear Grizz,
> Chiming in on a minor detail... For the record, I would like to remind you that it takes more than money to "pay for her."
> 
> I remind you that I contributed my heart, time and resources for years to Old PPI, for no compensation, and initially with no contract or even an illusion of the potential for repayment. It was an unusual and exciting creative opportunity, for which I gladly volunteered.
> 
> Jeff Scoon had, and still has, a talent to inspire people to excel. Later, when PPI was making real money, I was paid, but not in proportion to my efforts, my prior track record, my investment, or even current design industry standards. I repeat, nobody did it for the money. Most of us could have profited more by doing just about anything other than working with PPI.
> 
> Additionally, Grizz, you probably remember exactly how much (or little) the owners of Epsilon valued my work. Really, I was grateful that you were asked to offer me an amount that caused both of us to laugh. While I am sorry that you were put in such an embarrassing position, I appreciated that the sum was too trivial for me to need to justify the cost of my rather inconvenient code of honor, (my inner bottom line), to Warren and my future heirs.
> 
> You might remember our first conversation, when you called to apologize during the Brimer debacle, I said, "First you start with 'I'm sorry', then 'please' and 'thank you'." Epsilon slipped out of a potentially expensive situation simply because you said "I'm sorry, please and thank you." Courtesy is free, easy and usually effective. Your company should be grateful for your adept handling the infringement of my copyright for them. I hope that is not forgotten.
> 
> Grizz, I understand your goal here, but, it is difficult for me to to comprehend the statement: "We most certainly would pay for her, the problem is that customers will not."
> 
> This sentence mades some confusing assertions which may be misleading, including a refutable allusion to my willingness to be be purchased. I know you didn't mean it that way, but that is how it read.
> 
> I hope all is well with you and your family. My best to Angela.
> with love, chy
> 
> P.S. Regarding the rather and continuing debate on off shore manufacturing versus made in the USA: We have outsourced out a huge portion of our country's manufacturing capabilities, which is stimulating a higher standard of living in China and other manufacturing centers. Wages are already rising, there, increasing the cost of off shore production to the point that either we will have to deal with higher price tags, or we will become more creative in building more effective, stateside production. I propose we rekindle our ingenuity sooner, rather than later. IMHO


Hi dear,

I suppose I was speaking a bit in "corporate mode". Kind of unlike me. Anyway, you know I think your work is priceless, period! If I had the money in my personal account. I would have gladly thrown you every penny I had. I hope that you believe this. However, as it has been said before, the industry has changed. Our owners have grown their business for 30 years and been quite successful imho. 

All of our high end offering end up going on close out because people will not buy them. That is just what the industry has come to.

As for the owners, they do not know about the industry from an enthusiast stand point. However, our VP knows how much you are worth. We tried so hard to get them to understand. We still have hope that some day we will break through to them. I refuse to give up! We have a name that, in my mind, is priceless. We need to take it to it's potential. PPI is gaining ground every month. Once it can stand on it's own and justify the expenses of creating a real Art series, I will be flying over to take you an Warren out to dinner to see it if may become a possibility. But as you know, I is NOT a possibility until I have your blessing...

When I made the statement "We most certainly would pay for her, the problem is that customers will not", I meant that enthusiasts want everything but will not pay for it. Who is not guilty of this? I'm the same way. If we ever come to an agreement and release a new ART series, but nobody would pay the high price tag, you and I would be sick as we had to put it on close out. That is what happened to all of our expensive amps over the years. I would want ART to be a new generation of, well, STATE OF THE ART MOBILE AUDIO... If nobody buys it, then we all failed, regardless of how good it is. Business is business...

Oh! I did not at all mean that you were not willing to be purchased. You seemed perfectly willing and waited for my owners to make an offer. Did not mean to be unclear...

Thanx, I will give your best to Angela. Please tell Warren I said hello! I have hard it said that China will be the next world power in 10 years. I think it may be less than that. It is inevitable, really. As prices rise in Asia, it will be interesting to see how much manufacturing will come back to the USA. But the question is... Are they foolish enough to raise prices to the point where they start losing business, or will they raise them until we are all just stuck with them, and not able to bring business back to America. Also the questions will be if we are willing to invest in the technology to build products instead of "American sweat shop" of overpriced, unskilled labor that a computer can do for much less. Who knows?

Carolyn, I have not given up. But I gave you my word that NO ART AMPS are ever going to happen, unless you, myself and my company can come to an agreement. I think about this all of the time. I cannot do this without you! One of these days, I just need to jump on a plane and come see you two to visit and discuss this...

Take care Dear...


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Grizz, I understand your goal here, but, it is difficult for me to to comprehend the statement: "We most certainly would pay for her, the problem is that customers will not."
> 
> This sentence mades some confusing assertions which may be misleading, including a refutable allusion to my willingness to be be purchased. I know you didn't mean it that way, but that is how it read.
> 
> I hope all is well with you and your family. My best to Angela.
> with love, chy
> 
> P.S. Regarding the rather and continuing debate on off shore manufacturing versus made in the USA: We have outsourced out a huge portion of our country's manufacturing capabilities, which is stimulating a higher standard of living in China and other manufacturing centers. Wages are already rising, there, increasing the cost of off shore production to the point that either we will have to deal with higher price tags, or we will become more creative in building more effective, stateside production. I propose we rekindle our ingenuity sooner, rather than later. IMHO


*BRILLIANT!!!!
You just gotta love CHY
GRIZZ...FINISH THE DAMN CONTEST!!!!*
Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR[/QUOTE]

Wow, you missed the whole point. This is not about a contest. As I said, all but one or maybe even two were sent to me directly. Even if I chose my favorite, it means nothing at this point. We are NOT making ART AMPS until Carolyn and Epsilon come to an agreement. That may be never, thay may be next year. Nobody knows. Chill already. Or maybe you should talk to Carolyn about making your version of ART amps...


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



edouble101 said:


> Grizz Archer, I have a request.
> 
> Make us amplifiers with solid reliable power without crossover/eq functions


Hey man...

I may be mistaken, but I thought I may have seen a post about somebody thinking that xovers degraded a 2400 watt amp to 100 watts or something crazy like that. Anyway, here is the thing buddy... An electronic xover is nothing more than a circuit. It doe snot harm to the signal purity. Are you thinking that adding another signal processor in the path would be cleaner? Not so. And to rely on passive xovers is simply not the way to go either. I would much rather have an all active system that use passive networks. Any SQ guy will agree.

If I totally misunderstood your intentions, then I am sorry. Pleas give me some details on why you think it would be better and some of us can confirm or deny the validity.

Cool?


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



edouble101 said:


> Grizz Archer, I have a request.
> 
> Make us amplifiers with solid reliable power without crossover/eq functions


But I gotta tell ya... When I was a kid, we has whole systems running on a Punch 45 or ProMos 25 amps with huge 100% passive networks that were all custom built. I would make some and have the PCB beneath a piece of black lexan so that when you looked at the rear deck of a sedan, the entire rear parcel tray was a huge passive network. Man, that was freaking art! True talent back in those days. Although, in all honesty, I just put in a new JBL MS-8 and swear that I will have one in every car I build for the rest of my life! How's that for pumping up another brand! lol

Seriously, I doubt that there are many installer these days that could build an 80's SQ car. Everything now is way too easy. More advanced and better, but pretty easy in comparison...


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



subwoofery said:


> I see no reason to go "old school" other than the nostalgia factor


Hence the never-ending argument. Gary Springgay said that exact same thing in PAS Mag about OS vs. NS. It is like me loving my first car, a 68 VW bug. But My 09 Jeep is light years better, except for nostalgia... I love OS stuff and have plenty in my garage, but none of it is in my vehicles. Hmmmm...


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



subwoofery said:


> When I'll come back to US, I'll plan a get together around beers and peanuts
> 
> Kelvin


Done! I'll even come to you so we can meet at the NB Brewing company. I'm buying...


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



Grizz Archer said:


> But I gotta tell ya... When I was a kid, we has whole systems running on a Punch 45 or ProMos 25 amps with huge 100% passive networks that were all custom built. I would make some and have the PCB beneath a piece of black lexan so that when you looked at the rear deck of a sedan, the entire rear parcel tray was a huge passive network. Man, that was freaking art! True talent back in those days. Although, in all honesty, I just put in a new JBL MS-8 and swear that I will have one in every car I build for the rest of my life! How's that for pumping up another brand! lol
> 
> Seriously, I doubt that there are many installer these days that could build an 80's SQ car. Everything now is way too easy. More advanced and better, but pretty easy in comparison...


For the eyes only 
Buwalda Hybrids International Bulletin Board • View topic - My passive X-over is done! 
One of the best piece of car audio from a DIYer  

Kelvin


----------



## rc10mike

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

The car audio hobby is dying, its a bad time for PPI to try and reinvent itself. Sad..but true.

Good luck PPI....


----------



## ChrisB

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



Grizz Archer said:


> Holy crap! Another guy who gets it! We need to start a posse! So, you are saying that you have American amps, but are NOT a closed minded gumby that does not understand why products are made in China? What a concept! You really get it! GOD BLESS YOU!!! Ummm, I probably should not be on here anymore. Catching a bit of a buzz and I do not want to say what I would love to at times... Oh well, I never claimed to be the most professional person in the industry. I am still a car audio fanatic and love to interact with most people. If people do not like reality or my unbiased opinion, I could care less. I do not gat paid for surveys. I love this industry and just want to keep it real. Holy crap, that was Captain Morgan talking...


I'm living proof that you can teach an old dog new tricks. Every now and again, I fall into my obnoxious ways, but I am trying to change!:laugh:

Oddly, the only thing I would like to see that isn't on the market an Android based HU with a volume knob that allows one to upgrade it via software modules. If one doesn't want processing, that's easy, keep the unit base. If one want crossovers, time alignment, and parametric equalization, why not allow the purchase of those via an online store? 

IMHO that seems like a great way to develop a generic product that has the potential to be marketed to all. I am tired of the close ended double DIN head units that have to be replaced every year in order to have the latest and greatest features.


----------



## n_olympios

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



ChrisB said:


> Oddly, the only thing I would like to see that *isn't on the market* an Android based HU with a volume knob that allows one to upgrade it via software modules. If one doesn't want processing, that's easy, keep the unit base. If one want crossovers, time alignment, and parametric equalization, why not allow the purchase of those via an online store?


Take a closer look.


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



Grizz Archer said:


> I love you man! NOT because you even mentioned PPI, but because you are talking about 12V as a whole. If your post was in a RF, LP, Zapco or JBL thread, it would make no difference. You love high end, and would love American made product, BUT YOU STILL GET IT. This is not about PPI, Soundstream or any brand. it is about Economincs and some people will never understand. But at least they want USA products and do not swear by something made in some other country. Can't disrespect wanting American products, but can't fix cynical thought processing either...


Thanks Grizz! As you (and everyone else) can see....this topic pisses me off! I just dont get what people are missing???? I am a business guy that happens to be an audiophile so I try to relate the two. To me its a VERY simple concept. 
As far as what CHY wrote and you touched upon regarding china being a superpower any day now and production coming back home......
I agree with the first part..it really cant be denied?
I do however HIGHLY doubt that production will move back home because of china.... There are a hundred or more other countrys that are in a similar postion that China used to be in and will likely end up being the next manufacturer superpower (could even be parts of the middle east....who knows?). It will very unlikely end up being here! To me there is a simple reason why, and several of us have already mentioned it over and over and over....... Its the same reason why this country is in the disgusting and embarrasing situation its in. (no its not the presidentS, lets be realistic...they all suck!) Its because over the last however many years each generation has built up more and more and more sense of entitlement for no particular reason other then because they exist. Its that reason that people no longer feel the need to do more then there 40hrs a week, every weekend off, paid 6figures for EVERYTHING, etc.... The only way the economy is ever going to change is for peoples mind sets to change. No one owes you a damn thing you didnt earn. That is what ever person needs to say to themselves in the morning before they head off to work (those that are left in this country that still have them that is). With unemployment at an all time low you would figure that Americans would fight tooth and nail to get any sort of job at any pay just to survive but NO. When people loose that attitude and are willing to work for a pay comparable to the job then and only then will we get out of the depression were in and then companys can afford to bring back production be it cars, audio, etc...... The more things that are done here the sooner value/income will even out! Attitudes have to change first! All the bail outs in the world will do NOTHING except deplete the next generation even more! You want stuff made here? You unemployed? Go mop a floor, send an illegal back home to come back the right way and keep everything you can domestic! Doing production work here with the situation the way it is would be absolutely rediculous and would fail period! Does anyone really think that a home grown company wants to outsource there product if it could be done for the same money here???? Of course they would! Think about how far apart the pricing must be when you take into consideration the cost of travel, overseas business education (learning new customs and protocal of any particular country VERY important), Communications, shipping, etc....... You could take all that away from the equation and it would still cost WAY more to do it here.....all because of an attitude  Maybe we need to loose even more jobs and people need to starve a little more before the masses get it? Sad  At this pace it wont be long before were another one of those 3rd world countries 

Grizz.....You hiring? (northeast of course


----------



## JAX

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

Put it this way.

There are NO American made head units. I dont know if there ever even was but now its all overseas. 

Nobody makes a peep about that. Then why is it a big deal for some about an amp? the source unit is more important than the amp. an amp cant make a bad source good.

Now on the issue of high end no longer being a viable option. 

thats probably true on amps. But why cant they make a good $400 dollar deck now? people will still buy that but all they are making is cheap looking ipod machines. 

its all pretty pointless now. there are so many amps to choose from that its just a matter of who gives the most for the least and see who can survive.


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



rexroadj said:


> Thanks Grizz! As you (and everyone else) can see....this topic pisses me off! I just dont get what people are missing???? I am a business guy that happens to be an audiophile so I try to relate the two. To me its a VERY simple concept.
> As far as what CHY wrote and you touched upon regarding china being a superpower any day now and production coming back home......
> I agree with the first part..it really cant be denied?
> I do however HIGHLY doubt that production will move back home because of china.... There are a hundred or more other countrys that are in a similar postion that China used to be in and will likely end up being the next manufacturer superpower (could even be parts of the middle east....who knows?). It will very unlikely end up being here! To me there is a simple reason why, and several of us have already mentioned it over and over and over....... Its the same reason why this country is in the disgusting and embarrasing situation its in. (no its not the presidentS, lets be realistic...they all suck!) Its because over the last however many years each generation has built up more and more and more sense of entitlement for no particular reason other then because they exist. Its that reason that people no longer feel the need to do more then there 40hrs a week, every weekend off, paid 6figures for EVERYTHING, etc.... The only way the economy is ever going to change is for peoples mind sets to change. No one owes you a damn thing you didnt earn. That is what ever person needs to say to themselves in the morning before they head off to work (those that are left in this country that still have them that is). With unemployment at an all time low you would figure that Americans would fight tooth and nail to get any sort of job at any pay just to survive but NO. When people loose that attitude and are willing to work for a pay comparable to the job then and only then will we get out of the depression were in and then companys can afford to bring back production be it cars, audio, etc...... The more things that are done here the sooner value/income will even out! Attitudes have to change first! All the bail outs in the world will do NOTHING except deplete the next generation even more! You want stuff made here? You unemployed? Go mop a floor, send an illegal back home to come back the right way and keep everything you can domestic! Doing production work here with the situation the way it is would be absolutely rediculous and would fail period! Does anyone really think that a home grown company wants to outsource there product if it could be done for the same money here???? Of course they would! Think about how far apart the pricing must be when you take into consideration the cost of travel, overseas business education (learning new customs and protocal of any particular country VERY important), Communications, shipping, etc....... You could take all that away from the equation and it would still cost WAY more to do it here.....all because of an attitude  Maybe we need to loose even more jobs and people need to starve a little more before the masses get it? Sad  At this pace it wont be long before were another one of those 3rd world countries
> 
> Grizz.....You hiring? (northeast of course


We are hiring a few people, but only for here man. Sorry!


----------



## starboy869

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

I guess since Abyss is an overseas company it's junk?

Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More

These amp cost about an arm, leg, and possible first born male child. Abyss isn't sold in North America since there's a very limited market. VERY HIGH END










btw this works out to about $5,000 US + shipping and duties from overseas. Class A and almost for sure not a single USA made part inside. 


Also another series that died was the ALPINE F1 line. I guess that 75wx4 amp was junk since it wasn't usa made?










Also here's a copy of a TRU C7.2T / AByss amp











those components look pretty high end.


I currently have a couple F1 amps for sale $800ea shipped, and my Abyss Amp for sale $1850 shipped. No takers, and very little nibbles.


----------



## starboy869

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

Another thing is labour costs

USA/CAnada = Union and very high costs overall

CHINA and others.. = unions are illegal. Either you work there for $x or bye.


How many unions caused job lost, plant closures in the USA and Canada?

I know of at least 4 major employeers from back home shut down shop and went to MEXICO. why? labour was being too much. A planet Fiber-ex (Sarnia, ON) closed down not too long ago. They were UNIONIZED, the company was losing millions a year, and they shut down. A new owner placed a bid depending the union wages, etc., However the UNION gave the new bidder a "**** you" on wage changes. Well I guess the union will rather their employees collect Welfare/EI cheques instead of a paycheque.


----------



## jel847

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



starboy869 said:


> Another thing is labour costs
> 
> USA/CAnada = Union and very high costs overall
> 
> CHINA and others.. = unions are illegal. Either you work there for $x or bye.
> 
> 
> How many unions caused job lost, plant closures in the USA and Canada?
> 
> I know of at least 4 major employeers from back home shut down shop and went to MEXICO. why? labour was being too much. A planet Fiber-ex (Sarnia, ON) closed down not too long ago. They were UNIONIZED, the company was losing millions a year, and they shut down. A new owner placed a bid depending the union wages, etc., However the UNION gave the new bidder a "**** you" on wage changes. Well I guess the union will rather their employees collect Welfare/EI cheques instead of a paycheque.


this is a bit of a rediculous statement, there have been just as many if not more business that laid off employees and shipped their operations oversea that had nothing to do with any labor union..
union workers are giving up as much as anyone every day, from salaries, health benifits and so on. If you think doing away with unions is a good solution you are sadly mistaken my friend..


----------



## putergod

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



subwoofery said:


> FYI, American made does not always mean quality and reliability. Taken from your above post, Harrison Labs has been known for reliability issues. American price with less than chinese build is really a bad business philosophy. I don't know how reliable their amp has become but in the past, they weren't...
> 
> Kelvin
> 
> PS: not making this up there's quite a few threads on the matter, even here on DIYMA if you take the time to search


Never heard of such... but we all have our own experiences (I will comment on mine to Grizz in a moment)



Grizz Archer said:


> It would be fun to take a poll of all of the people that refuse to buy anything not American made, and see what kind of car they drive... LOL


I have 4 vehicles. None of them were made in Asia. I don't have a problem whit European made products (usually) or Australian. Canada is part of "America" (namely North America - even Mexico is better than China)
They are: 1991 Pontiac Trans Am (American company, American made), 2006 Pontiac GTO (American company, Australian made), 2004 Saab 9-3 (American owned company, European made), 1996 Harley Davidson Heritage Softail Nostalgia (American company, American made). And every one of them are better than any piece of crap asian equivalent I've been in.



jmacdadd said:


> The PPI buy appears to have been for the name brand recognition *only* and *not* to rebuild what was a once strong company. There is nothing to me that sets PPI today apart from Lanzar/Pyle/Pyramid/etc. If I am going to buy junk I am going to spend the least amount possible for it.
> 
> I understand that technology has changed and that's great. However, show me one Class D sub amp that does NOT have a built in crossover, boost or subsonic filter so I can compare it to any of my old school amplifiers. If you turn the onboard processing from a 2400 watt Class D amp you are going to be left with 100 watts of power. If all of the power comes from the onboard processing what is the amp really doing?
> 
> I don't need lights in my amp. I don't need subs with a painted or powder coated frames/baskets. I don't need colorful packaging or a flashy manual for that matter. Every penny that gets put into these pieces of the puzzle I am going to pay least a nickel for (most likely a quarter since this is BIG money) and they aren't making the product function any better or last any longer. Keep it simple...give me a photo copied manual and plain cardboard box.
> 
> Please, someone, point in the right direction to a thread that is glorifying how good today's Power Class amps are because I cannot find one and I have been looking. I haven't even seen any Amazon reviews. I did see a review on this forum on the 3-way components and it definitely wasn't screaming phenomenal.
> 
> I am only here to express my opinion and reminisce about the glory days of car audio that have apparently come and gone. Aside from the high quality sound output these classic old school A/B amps can provide, they don't consume that much current draw from my electrical system compared to these "efficient" Class D monsters.
> 
> And, for the record, I own three cars at the moment, and as far as I can tell, they were all made in the USA...'88 Dodge Omni (my vintage ride), '99 Blazer ZR2 (my offroad ride) and an '04 Buick Rendezvous (my sweet ride). Sign me up for the "Made in America" poll. If anyone is still paying attention, I am currently looking for an '88 S-10 regular cab short box for my next project...keep me posted!
> 
> I don't think it was a fair fight by the way. It definitely wasn't a war so China couldn't win. Apparently the towel was thrown in due to big companies chasing big profits. What I don't understand is why the manufacturing technology can't be moved to the US so the same amps could be manufactured here? I'll just keep buying lottery tickets so some day I can start my own company and learn the hard way but at least try to do it right.
> 
> Maybe I will stop wasting *my* time raving about my love of quality US made mobile audio since there isn't enough need for it these days.


Agree 100%


rexroadj said:


> buncha blah blah BS holier than thou thinks I know everything dribble


I was going to type out a nice rhetoric, but I chose not to.


To Grizz:
You say I don’t "get it"...
Let me tell you what I most certainly DID GET! I GOT one of YOUR SS amplifiers, because I wasn't yet informed that the wonderful, amazing, terrific SoundStream of old was no more, thanks to your crappy company. So, I bought one of YOUR SS amps. LESS THAN SIX MONTHS after purchase, that PIECE OF CRAP blew a resistor right off the board! No, the amp never "burnt up". It wasn't "abused" (my 10.0 was though, and still runs strong). I still have it if you would like some pictures... It was the FASTEST "failure" I have EVER seen on a BRAND NEW AMP!! THAT'S the "Epsilon Quality" ladies and gentlemen. They are CRAP!

I also bought a couple of JL amps for the Saab. Yea, I know they are made in Craptown, China too, but I was TRYING to give JL's QA the benefit of the doubt. BIG MISTAKE. JL 500/1 BLEW UP in a puff of smoke! It was running at 8 ohms, so there was no "abuse". It was CRAP. I pulled the 300/4 out immediately after buying my replacement... so I can "hopefully" sell it on ebay. Replacement was another grand ole Made in the USA US Amps. It has already outlasted the JL's Chinacrap.

Amps I CURRENTLY own and their state:
*SoundStream Class A 10.0 - works perfectly. 16 yrs old
*US Amps USA-4300x - works perfectly. 10 years old
*US Amps USA-1000x - works perfectly. 10 years old
*US Amps AX-TU4360 - Works perfectly. 5 years old
*US Amps AX-5300 - works perfectly. 4 years old (ive owned for 2)
JL 300/4 - works perfectly since it was pulled before it could fail. ~4 years old
JL 500/1 - fried. ~4 years old (fried at 2)
SoundStream EGA4120 - 6 years old or so. Died at 6mos.
*PPI A600 - 17 or 18 years old. Died from a power surge at about age 7
Previously owned:
two crappy jensens, both died horribly (don't recall models)

*Carver M4120* (this one I am not 100% sure where it was built, but pretty sure it was USA - I will leave it out of the figures below. I haven't had it for years, as I sold it to a friend somewhere around the year 2000. It worked great when I sold it, and was 8years old at the time).

Let’s see, I have a 80% failure rate on Chinese crap, and only a 16.7% failure rate on US made amps... that says a lot to ME. I could care less if you're blinded by truth.


----------



## putergod

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



starboy869 said:


> Also another series that died was the ALPINE F1 line. I guess that 75wx4 amp was junk since it wasn't usa made?


Yes, Alpine amps are junk. They never made a quality amp. They should stick with Head Units.

I wouldn't buy an abyss either, and Tru is made in US.


----------



## Darth SQ

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm... How would the contest work?


YOUR WORDS GRIZZ....not mine.
That was your very 1st post on this thread.
And for the record, I didn't submit any designs.
I'm just a consumer and an os PPI ART fan.
BTW, what are your plans regarding the designs that were submitted to you?

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



Carolyn Hall Young said:


> Uh, Bret...
> "Brilliant" might be a bit of an overstatement. I was just trying to be gentle, yet clear.
> 
> Were you referring to my current exorbitant purchase price or my "off shore" comments? Warren thinks I am a great value.
> 
> Tonight, I have been fantasizing about upping my imaginary price to do phantom work in a field from which I barely escaped with my life...
> especially since I am now classifiable as "Vintage." What do you think?
> xxoo chy


Carolyn,
I think that I am really looking forward to talking with you this week. 
All my love.
Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## JAX

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

I will have to admit I would like to buy a Carver amp. not cause where it was or wasnt made but cause my tech tells me they were well made. He also tells me he has had to refurb every one he has got his hands on.

not saying they were all broke...maybe just out of spec due to age. 

I also ran 2 JL slashs. Had no issue with them at all. 

I also have a US AMPS MD42 I need to install right now. I dont know where it was made. I def dont feel its as nice as the old stuff. will see.

I drive an American car now. only 2nd chevy ever. If I could or had my choice I would be down the street buying a 1992 Nissan 300zx I saw for sale. 

I had 2 and both were smooth , quite and stable like a rail car. way ahead of their time and sweet. 

I used to run a car lot. seen lots of junk. so my point is that if you see enough cars of any make then you will see its not so cut and dry on whats good and whats not when it comes to cars. 

I had 4 Fords in a row. all excellent machines. all different. 

I guess I was a freak


----------



## ChrisB

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



n_olympios said:


> Take a closer look.


There was a double Din unit from overseas that caught my attention and made me start thinking of the possibilities. Unfortunately, for the Parrot unit, external processing would still be a must. At least, as of right now.


----------



## starboy869

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



putergod said:


> Yes, Alpine amps are junk. They never made a quality amp. They should stick with Head Units.
> 
> I wouldn't buy an abyss either, and Tru is made in US.




Abyss is pretty high end. Heck the TRU/Abyss C7.2T are 100% identical. However the TRU one is better because it's usa made? wow... ignorant. Well it's ok.. you most likely couldn't afford either anyways.

BTW those components and boards were made overseas. Maybe the TRU line was assembled in the USA, but the resistors, diodes, caps, etc are all made overseas.


----------



## starboy869

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*










$150 on ebay for china build

say

$450 on ebay for USA build. Same board, etc., 

Which one would you buy?


----------



## PPI_GUY

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

putergod, your SS amp was under warranty at only 6 months old. Did you contact SS about a replacement? You act like new stuff is all that have ever died. You might want to do alittle research into old school stuff, made by highly respected companies that went "poof!" on a regular basis. I will offer Orion HCCA (1st Gen), SoundStream (prior to Epsilon buyout), Hifonics X (and earlier) and of course P-P-I Art's (version 1) with the lighter duty power supply as examples. 
Oh, on your 2006 GTO, you might be interested to know what percentage of it's components were 'sourced' from several countries other than the US and Australia. It's just enough to be called a domestic. The Saab I have no clue or interest in. The '91 T/A probably had 80%-90% of its components made in the US. The HD Softail, again don't know, don't care. 
Lookup the source countries for components on the freakin' Space Shuttle! 
Back to car audio...you still haven't proved to me that foreign made products are no better than what is currently being made in the US by a handful of small companies. And using your examples won't get it as they could be explained as user misuse or abuse. All we have is your word that they were well grounded and supplied with adequate current/voltage.

Hell, I used to be a diehard old school guy. I wouldn't even look at new equipment. But, I was only being hard-headed and brainwashed by the old mantra that "old school was made better". That may have been true at one point but, things change and they have. Maybe you should call SS/PPI, Jayelle, etc and ask about their failure rates? I would almost be certain that those numbers are lower now than versus 1992.

I really don't care what products you use. You inserted your opinion into this thread...a thread by the way that had nothing to do with 'old vs. new' and started flamming away about SS/PPI and now you take shots at Alpine and others. What the hell kind of reaction do expect to get? Or are you arguing just for the sake of confrontation?


----------



## PPI-ART

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



rexroadj said:


> Thanks Grizz! As you (and everyone else) can see....this topic pisses me off! I just dont get what people are missing???? I am a business guy that happens to be an audiophile so I try to relate the two. To me its a VERY simple concept.
> As far as what CHY wrote and you touched upon regarding china being a superpower any day now and production coming back home......
> I agree with the first part..it really cant be denied?
> I do however HIGHLY doubt that production will move back home because of china.... There are a hundred or more other countrys that are in a similar postion that China used to be in and will likely end up being the next manufacturer superpower (could even be parts of the middle east....who knows?). It will very unlikely end up being here! To me there is a simple reason why, and several of us have already mentioned it over and over and over....... Its the same reason why this country is in the disgusting and embarrasing situation its in. (no its not the presidentS, lets be realistic...they all suck!) Its because over the last however many years each generation has built up more and more and more sense of entitlement for no particular reason other then because they exist. Its that reason that people no longer feel the need to do more then there 40hrs a week, every weekend off, paid 6figures for EVERYTHING, etc.... The only way the economy is ever going to change is for peoples mind sets to change. No one owes you a damn thing you didnt earn. That is what ever person needs to say to themselves in the morning before they head off to work (those that are left in this country that still have them that is). With unemployment at an all time low you would figure that Americans would fight tooth and nail to get any sort of job at any pay just to survive but NO. When people loose that attitude and are willing to work for a pay comparable to the job then and only then will we get out of the depression were in and then companys can afford to bring back production be it cars, audio, etc...... The more things that are done here the sooner value/income will even out! Attitudes have to change first! All the bail outs in the world will do NOTHING except deplete the next generation even more! You want stuff made here? You unemployed? Go mop a floor, send an illegal back home to come back the right way and keep everything you can domestic! Doing production work here with the situation the way it is would be absolutely rediculous and would fail period! Does anyone really think that a home grown company wants to outsource there product if it could be done for the same money here???? Of course they would! Think about how far apart the pricing must be when you take into consideration the cost of travel, overseas business education (learning new customs and protocal of any particular country VERY important), Communications, shipping, etc....... You could take all that away from the equation and it would still cost WAY more to do it here.....all because of an attitude  Maybe we need to loose even more jobs and people need to starve a little more before the masses get it? Sad  At this pace it wont be long before were another one of those 3rd world countries
> 
> Grizz.....You hiring? (northeast of course


Are you kidding? Peoples attitude? Entitlement? Please wake up and smell the Jo. American middle class workers, no matter what entitlement you think they have, are never going to compete with Chinese, Mexican, Indian labor. Maybe it's the whole American dream thing? Maybe you have heard the term before. But an american making 20 dollars an hour is about the same as a third world laborer making 5 dollars a day if that. To a company that wants a healthy margin the choice is clear. Not to mention the tax breaks and incentives to operate not on American soil. Don't bash the American worker. Not all of us have entitlement issues. But putting us vs them, we cannot compare in that regard. And shareholders like that. more money on the bottom line. That's why they don't manufacture here. When we can all live on 5 bucks a day then they might bring it back. Not when peoples attitude changes.


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

Why dont you re-read *******! I was saying that if people want to have the manufacturing done here that is what would have to be done! Thats a fact! I am not saying its likely or going to happen. In fact I even stated that mass production would just find another 3 world country. It is exactly a sense of entitlment that has put us where we are. It was used generally and if your not that way GREAT! But thats not the masses so if you want to get your panties in a bunch over it go ahead. The fact is that the vast majority do expect a whole lot for nothing. So I will bash the American worker in general, I have held jobs throught my life as an entry level employee, mid level management, and owning my own company hiring employees. I have been guilty of the above at certain points in my life, I dont know anyone who hasnt! That doesnt make it right. You get a better perspective from different angles and I have been in several of them. Its become a viscious cycle like it or not. Its just the way it is! 
Not sure where I said middle class was the group to compete with entry level postions of manufacturing (of course I realize that not all manufacturing is entry level so before another person gets a panty wedgy I will make that clear!) My problem is that most would rather collect unemployment (which I think is great and we do pay for it so we should use it) then accept a job the feel is "below them" if thats not an attitude and sense of entitlement the perhaps you can elaborate a little more! If people were willing to take jobs if they were available even if it wasnt an exhorbant amount of pay especially considering the unemployment rate, it would really help. But no! People would rather do anything but (again generally speaking). Are you trying to tell me that this is not the case? If so I will brew some "joe" and pour you a cup!


----------



## putergod

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



starboy869 said:


> Abyss is pretty high end. Heck the TRU/Abyss C7.2T are 100% identical. However the TRU one is better because it's usa made? wow... ignorant. Well it's ok.. you most likely couldn't afford either anyways.


Yea, you're probably right. I'm just a poor ole schmuck compared to you... 



starboy869 said:


> $150 on ebay for china build
> 
> say
> 
> $450 on ebay for USA build. Same board, etc.,
> 
> Which one would you buy?


The second one... At least I'd know it was built by a person that actually CARED about what they are doing (not to mention keeping same American person employed) and not some third rate sweat shop with slave labor...



PPI_GUY said:


> putergod, your SS amp was under warranty at only 6 months old. Did you contact SS about a replacement?


Almost did... until I looked inside and saw the craptastic circuit board. I was still expecting to see what I saw inside my 10.0 (and the Ref 500 I was holding for a short time for someone else), not the POS I actually saw. Then I started doing some research and learned that SS was bought out by a craptastic company, and any replacement would be equally crappy. Instead, I directed my energy (and money) to obtaining a quality piece to run beside my 10.0 since SS wasn't going to make the cut.
In came US Amps (this was before they got bought too).



PPI_GUY said:


> You act like new stuff is all that have ever died. You might want to do alittle research into old school stuff, made by highly respected companies that went "poof!" on a regular basis. I will offer Orion HCCA (1st Gen), SoundStream (prior to Epsilon buyout), Hifonics X (and earlier) and of course P-P-I Art's (version 1) with the lighter duty power supply as examples.


My PPI was a V1... It did die, but not till after many years of hard service, and it wasn't entirely "its" fault either. 



PPI_GUY said:


> Oh, on your 2006 GTO, you might be interested to know what percentage of it's components were 'sourced' from several countries other than the US and Australia. It's just enough to be called a domestic. The Saab I have no clue or interest in. The '91 T/A probably had 80%-90% of its components made in the US. The HD Softail, again don't know, don't care.


I've never said a word about "100% sourced from US". I said "Made in the USA". That means a bulk of assembly, and definitely final assembly, and as much resources as available, be done/from the US. EVERYTHING built ANYWHERE in the WORLD will have SOME parts sourced from SOMEWHERE else. (keep in mind that when I say this, I am referring to anything complex like a car, or complex electronics, not simple things). It's just asinine to think that we are scream it has to be *100% sourced* from the US. I mean, really... Comon...



PPI_GUY said:


> Lookup the source countries for components on the freakin' Space Shuttle!
> Back to car audio...you still haven't proved to me that foreign made products are no better than what is currently being made in the US by a handful of small companies.


Thanks for proving my point! Well, halfway to my point at least...


PPI_GUY said:


> And using your examples won't get it as they could be explained as user misuse or abuse. All we have is your word that they were well grounded and supplied with adequate current/voltage.


Like this matters... but...
1. Funny how I only abused the china crap... like I enjoyed throwing away money... sure did! Matter of fact, let me throw some more away today! I'll go buy me a crappy China made PPI - NOT!
1a. I do want to add that the MOST "abused" amp I have ever own was my Class A 10.0 - Handcrafted in the USA by the ORIGINAL SoundStream! It ran, daily at 1/2 ohm mono for over 15 years.
1b. One more thing to add - Let's pretend, for sake of argument, that I DID abuse my amps, heavily abused them - It's great to know that all my US made ones are built so great and tough that they can handle it... while the craptastic Chinese ones CAN'T!!! Or do you think that I, somehow, was able to "refrain from abuse" if the amp said "made in usa" but couldn't otherwise? That's really smart there bub...
2. I spent 10 years in the military as an Electronics Technician. 3 years prior to that working as an inspector/tester of amplifiers for Peavey Electronics in Meridian, MS.
3. I've spent the last 8 years as a "one man IT department". Switches, routers, servers, desktops, telecom system and security system... all mine, all day, every day.


Basically, I know electronics.



PPI_GUY said:


> Hell, I used to be a diehard old school guy. I wouldn't even look at new equipment. But, I was only being hard-headed and brainwashed by the old mantra that "old school was made better". That may have been true at one point but, things change and they have. Maybe you should call SS/PPI, Jayelle, etc and ask about their failure rates? I would almost be certain that those numbers are lower now than versus 1992.


And I USED to be you, but I grew a brain (took some pain to the wallet along the way) and realized just how shoddy things made in China really are. Are you really so retarded that you can't see the quality difference between Chinese made crap (ANY product, not just amps/electronics) and American? Never held a Chinese socket and compared it to a Craftsman or Snap-on? Not even in the same LEAGUE!
And not ALL Asia is "horrible" - example: Seagate bought out Maxtor. Before that happened, Seagate had the lowest failure rate in the industry. They were also the only HDD manufacturer that DIDN'T make HDDs in China. There's were made in Singapore. Maxtor had "one of the" HIGHEST failure rates (THE highest out of the "big three"). All their drives were crappily built in China. I have a 650MB Seagate HDD from 1992 that STILL WORKS!! However, I've never owned a Maxtor that didn't have to be replaced at least once under warranty, and none that I've ever bought still work today. After Seagate bought Maxtor (and started using their facilities obviously), their failure rate climbed drastically. Now they almost (only almost since they still manufacture some drives in Singapore) match Maxtor's. Which ones are the ones that fail 99% of the time? That’s right! The ones made in China!



PPI_GUY said:


> I really don't care what products you use. You inserted your opinion into this thread...a thread by the way that had nothing to do with 'old vs. new' and started flamming away about SS/PPI and now you take shots at Alpine and others. What the hell kind of reaction do expect to get? Or are you arguing just for the sake of confrontation?


No, actually, I was hoping to educate some people and show them "the light". Guess I failed. I'll pray for all of you!



PPI-ART said:


> Are you kidding? Peoples attitude? Entitlement? Please wake up and smell the Jo. American middle class workers, no matter what entitlement you think they have, are never going to compete with Chinese, Mexican, Indian labor. Maybe it's the whole American dream thing? Maybe you have heard the term before. But an american making 20 dollars an hour is about the same as a third world laborer making 5 dollars a day if that. To a company that wants a healthy margin the choice is clear. Not to mention the tax breaks and incentives to operate not on American soil. Don't bash the American worker. Not all of us have entitlement issues. But putting us vs them, we cannot compare in that regard. And shareholders like that. more money on the bottom line. That's why they don't manufacture here. When we can all live on 5 bucks a day then they might bring it back. Not when peoples attitude changes.


Can't wait for a President with some BALLS to set some high tariffs and tax penalties for not manufacturing in the US. Would bring some jobs back!


----------



## jel847

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

The probkem isnt that people would rather collect unemployment than take a job that is beneath them. The problem is that people are making a certain amount of money, they lose their job for whatever reason. Then the only jobs available pay less than what they make on unemployment. It's the system that is screwed up and needs to be fixed.


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

No, actually, I was hoping to educate some people and show them "the light". Guess I failed. I'll pray for all of you!

WOW THATS HYSTERICAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please stop trying to "educate" us!!!!



Can't wait for a President with some BALLS to set some high tariffs and tax penalties for not manufacturing in the US. Would bring some jobs back![/QUOTE]


Yeah that will change it?????


----------



## jel847

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

:dead_horse:


----------



## putergod

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



rexroadj said:


> No, actually, I was hoping to educate some people and show them "the light". Guess I failed. I'll pray for all of you!
> 
> WOW THATS HYSTERICAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please stop trying to "educate" us!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Can't wait for a President with some BALLS to set some high tariffs and tax penalties for not manufacturing in the US. Would bring some jobs back!
> 
> Yeah that will change it?????


Yea... I've learned that some people just don't have the brain power and are unable to learn or be taught. So, my child, you are excused from class. Go now, go play on the monkey bars. Just don't fall on your head again.


----------



## PPI-ART

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



rexroadj said:


> Why dont you re-read *******! I was saying that if people want to have the manufacturing done here that is what would have to be done! Thats a fact! I am not saying its likely or going to happen. In fact I even stated that mass production would just find another 3 world country. It is exactly a sense of entitlment that has put us where we are. It was used generally and if your not that way GREAT! But thats not the masses so if you want to get your panties in a bunch over it go ahead. The fact is that the vast majority do expect a whole lot for nothing. So I will bash the American worker in general, I have held jobs throught my life as an entry level employee, mid level management, and owning my own company hiring employees. I have been guilty of the above at certain points in my life, I dont know anyone who hasnt! That doesnt make it right. You get a better perspective from different angles and I have been in several of them. Its become a viscious cycle like it or not. Its just the way it is!
> Not sure where I said middle class was the group to compete with entry level postions of manufacturing (of course I realize that not all manufacturing is entry level so before another person gets a panty wedgy I will make that clear!) My problem is that most would rather collect unemployment (which I think is great and we do pay for it so we should use it) then accept a job the feel is "below them" if thats not an attitude and sense of entitlement the perhaps you can elaborate a little more! If people were willing to take jobs if they were available even if it wasnt an exhorbant amount of pay especially considering the unemployment rate, it would really help. But no! People would rather do anything but (again generally speaking). Are you trying to tell me that this is not the case? If so I will brew some "joe" and pour you a cup!


well first of all, know it all. And I use that term loosely. Sounds like your referring to people that use the unemployment system and abuse it. Not the general working population. You really think people that have families to support would like to see there jobs go overseas just so they could sit on their ass and collect unemployment and not get enough money to provide for their families? I don't really think so. So keep saying stupid **** to make yourself look more like a dumb ass. And if it meant their kids wouldn't go hungry I'm sure most sane people would take a lesser job if it was below themselves to provide for their families. So pour away.


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



jel847 said:


> The probkem isnt that people would rather collect unemployment than take a job that is beneath them. The problem is that people are making a certain amount of money, they lose their job for whatever reason. Then the only jobs available pay less than what they make on unemployment. It's the system that is screwed up and needs to be fixed.


That is a problem but not always the situation. It does happen often though, and I dont blame those people...again they did pay for it! There are however A LOT of people that dont make as much on unemployment but would still rather take it and do nothing. Lots of people still have to pay out of pocket for insurance and dont because the cant afford it..... Its hard to get a job (better) when you dont have one already...

I shouldnt have started a debate about this because it really doesnt belong in this thread.....I feel the way I do because of what I have seen and been through. There is really no need to discuss anything about overseas production or anything like that....The thread is about new PPI and there amps.


----------



## putergod

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



PPI-ART said:


> well first of all, know it all. And I use that term loosely. Sounds like your referring to people that use the unemployment system and abuse it. Not the general working population. You really think people that have families to support would like to see there jobs go overseas just so they could sit on their ass and collect unemployment and not get enough money to provide for their families? I don't really think so. So keep saying stupid **** to make yourself look more like a dumb ass. And if it meant their kids wouldn't go hungry I'm sure most sane people would take a lesser job if it was below themselves to provide for their families. So pour away.


Actually, there are a LOT of people that try to mooch off the system. I see it every day. People that are fully capable of getting off of their lazy butts and finding a job (McDonald's is always hiring) but are too lazy, especially if they are already getting their checks from the tax payers.
I actually KNOW people like this, personally. And it really TICKS ME OFF!


----------



## jel847

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

Haha...this thread went off track about 21 pages ago!


----------



## jel847

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

There always were and always will be people that take advantage ef thr system.


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



PPI-ART said:


> well first of all, know it all. And I use that term loosely. Sounds like your referring to people that use the unemployment system and abuse it. Not the general working population. You really think people that have families to support would like to see there jobs go overseas just so they could sit on their ass and collect unemployment and not get enough money to provide for their families? I don't really think so. So keep saying stupid **** to make yourself look more like a dumb ass. And if it meant their kids wouldn't go hungry I'm sure most sane people would take a lesser job if it was below themselves to provide for their families. So pour away.


Where are you getting this ****! I was not talking about anyone loosing jobs because of outsourcing???? The unemployment rate is at an all time low for a ton of reasons (limited amount from outsourcing). Yes I do think, see, know that LOTS in my dealings of people would rather take unemployment regardless of the family situation and its sickning! You read about it hear about it all the time? Its nothing new or shocking. You can call me a "know it all" and be a dick about what I said, but just because you dont like it doesnt mean it isnt true! I am glad you dont have the same experience.... Seriously... I cant stand it every time I hear about it. Its F'd up! I honestly feel that Americans as a whole have become lazy and expect everything. Its how I feel and I dont give a **** if you dont like it or agree with it. We are sadly not the country we once were in that aspect. You cant seriously not believe that?


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



jel847 said:


> There always were and always will be people that take advantage ef thr system.


Its sad...I have family  that do this.....and that side of the family have been doing it for a couple generations now...its all they know now. It makes me want to vommit. I have written them off a long time ago (several reasons but this doesnt help it!) They are not the only group of people on the planet that do it. I have had several people that I have had to fire that try to collect unemployment AFTER BEING FIRED?????? REALLY???? I would be willing to bet there are more that abuse the system that use it for what its intent is (they make it to frigging easy). Maybe (and I hope) I am just cynical?


----------



## PPI-ART

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



putergod said:


> Actually, there are a LOT of people that try to mooch off the system. I see it every day. People that are fully capable of getting off of their lazy butts and finding a job (McDonald's is always hiring) but are too lazy, especially if they are already getting their checks from the tax payers.
> I actually KNOW people like this, personally. And it really TICKS ME OFF!


There is no doubt that there are people that do that. That pisses me off to. There will always be vultures that take advantage of the system. But in my opinion it's not the majority.


----------



## PPI-ART

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



rexroadj said:


> Where are you getting this ****! I was not talking about anyone loosing jobs because of outsourcing???? The unemployment rate is at an all time low for a ton of reasons (limited amount from outsourcing). Yes I do think, see, know that LOTS in my dealings of people would rather take unemployment regardless of the family situation and its sickning! You read about it hear about it all the time? Its nothing new or shocking. You can call me a "know it all" and be a dick about what I said, but just because you dont like it doesnt mean it isnt true! I am glad you dont have the same experience.... Seriously... I cant stand it every time I hear about it. Its F'd up! I honestly feel that Americans as a whole have become lazy and expect everything. Its how I feel and I dont give a **** if you dont like it or agree with it. We are sadly not the country we once were in that aspect. You cant seriously not believe that?


I agree with you in that respect. I was using an example of working people with regard to attitude loosing their jobs. Their is no doubt the system is abused and has flaws. And people take advantage of it. I just think it's I guess unfair to lump everone into that label as having that attitude. There is no doubt a lot of it. But I have seen the other side to. I work for GM as an engineer and I see our overseas plants with foreign workers and I see workers here in the states and it is a fight internally about offshore vs us manufacturing that I cannot possibly begin to even describe. Sorry for the heated discussion did not mean to offend you. We both have our experiences.


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



PPI-ART said:


> I agree with you in that respect. I was using an example of working people with regard to attitude loosing their jobs. Their is no doubt the system is abused and has flaws. And people take advantage of it. I just think it's I guess unfair to lump everone into that label as having that attitude. YOU ARE 100000000% correct! I should have said it was a generalization and a bland one at that! There is no doubt a lot of it. But I have seen the other side to. I work for GM as an engineer and I see our overseas plants with foreign workers and I see workers here in the states and it is a fight internally about offshore vs us manufacturing that I cannot possibly begin to even describe. Wow! yeah that is certainly a different side of the topic and can totally appreciate your experience and take on the situationSorry for the heated discussion did not mean to offend you.
> DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> We both have our experiences.


Well its nice to hear yours (truthfully, I can only imagine what goes on inside those buildings!)


----------



## PPI-ART

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



rexroadj said:


> Well its nice to hear yours (truthfully, I can only imagine what goes on inside those buildings!)


If you could be a fly on the wall let me tell you. Our shanghai operations pay the Chinese workers about 50-75 dollars a week US. Those people live like they won the big game lotto over there. It's hard for any worker here in the states to compete with that. My point originally was based on that. Companies that get manufacturing labor for those prices is insane. Which in my opinion is what will basically will end this country as a manufacturing and producing superpower if you will. American workers would never work for that. Just my opinion.


----------



## JAX

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



PPI-ART said:


> There is no doubt that there are people that do that. That pisses me off to. There will always be vultures that take advantage of the system. But in my opinion it's not the majority.



It might not be the majority but lets not forget we have a president who first year in office was praising how wonderful it was to not have a job and just live off the government nipple.

it was called "funemployment" or some other stupid as joke.

it was really funny to them all. Pelosi was telling people they could become artists and explore their creative side while they had time off.

Really funny. NL. not laughing

How quickly people forget that it was such a joke the first year in office cause everyone was so busy basking in the false prophet or whatever you want to call it.

My point is that this president promoted not having a job and to take it like it was a vacation on the rest of us. 

The democrats I should say, not just the president, all were promoting the idea that it was/ is better to sit around and get paid.

it was bad enough people do it to begin with but we had people in charge pushing this idea.

The same crap when the oil rig blew up and they halted all drilling. 

the only response from the pres about jobs was "go get unemployment" in other words we dont really care about your jobs. 


I will end it right there. there is really no excuse for a leader of any country to instill this kind of nonsense in peoples heads.


----------



## JAX

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



putergod said:


> Yes, Alpine amps are junk. They never made a quality amp. They should stick with Head Units.
> 
> I wouldn't buy an abyss either, and Tru is made in US.



I woudnt buy an ALpine now. I would hardly take one for free. but your wrong about never making a good amp. but that was way back. 

their head units now just suck. all head units suck now dang near.


----------



## JAX

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



PPI-ART said:


> If you could be a fly on the wall let me tell you. Our shanghai operations pay the Chinese workers about 50-75 dollars a week US. Those people live like they won the big game lotto over there. It's hard for any worker here in the states to compete with that. My point originally was based on that. Companies that get manufacturing labor for those prices is insane. Which in my opinion is what will basically will end this country as a manufacturing and producing superpower if you will. American workers would never work for that. Just my opinion.



not a matter of wouldnt , they couldnt . Unions are part of the reason a person with a mop or broom at GM makes $20 hr to do nothing. 

if you have been used to making that kind of gravy then of course you wouldnt want to take $2.50 hr would you? 

Unions may have had a purpose at one point or another but its going to backfire sooner or later. Obama cant keep bailing out GM .


----------



## PPI-ART

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



JAX said:


> not a matter of wouldnt , they couldnt . Unions are part of the reason a person with a mop or broom at GM makes $20 hr to do nothing.
> 
> if you have been used to making that kind of gravy then of course you wouldnt want to take $2.50 hr would you?
> 
> Unions may have had a purpose at one point or another but its going to backfire sooner or later. Obama cant keep bailing out GM .


Agree 100%. I'm not in the union but I see what they do everyday. Some of it makes me sick. Buts it's not all of them. I would say 10-15 percent of them use the union as a scapegoat to do nothing. There are probably a lot of people on unemployment or working at a lesser paying job that would take half of what some of them get.


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



PPI-ART said:


> If you could be a fly on the wall let me tell you. Our shanghai operations pay the Chinese workers about 50-75 dollars a week US. Those people live like they won the big game lotto over there. It's hard for any worker here in the states to compete with that. My point originally was based on that. Companies that get manufacturing labor for those prices is insane. Which in my opinion is what will basically will end this country as a manufacturing and producing superpower if you will. American workers would never work for that. Just my opinion.


I agree! And when its not China it will be some other "future china" before its hear. What I was talking about was theoretical and if it was ever gonna happen, thats most likely what it would take. Obviously $75 a week is not even close to a compromise in pay....BUT how close do you think we could get it (without cutting into profits, we do need to be realistic) when you cut out all the foreign travel, and all expenses attributed to it, maybe some property tax breaks for plants in the US, even utilitys are cheaper here, etc... I know it would still be far from good wages but would it ever be enough for people that need work to take it? I am sure Detroit for example must be beyond desperate at this point for some source of employment even if it were mostly minimum wage? 
I hate to keep on this topic but I am interested in your thoughts on it? Could we even get that close in the auto industry if people were willing to buy into a long term benefit of lower wages now to rebuild the country? Is there enough pride left here? I sure hope/wish.... I wont hold my breath I know that!


----------



## JAX

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



PPI-ART said:


> Agree 100%. I'm not in the union but I see what they do everyday. Some of it makes me sick. Buts it's not all of them. I would say 10-15 percent of them use the union as a scapegoat to do nothing. There are probably a lot of people on unemployment or working at a lesser paying job that would take half of what some of them get.



GM used to make Hummers here where I live. I talked to GM guys when they stopped by my old employers to look at a car for sale or something. 

They told me they could spill a coke on the floor and wouldnt /couldnt / didnt want to / pick it up . they had to let the overpaid clean up guy go get his mop and do it. 

they were so protected or pampered they wouldnt clean up their own mess. 

thats what the Union did for them. 

that plant is now for the most part **** down..I mean shut down..


----------



## PPI-ART

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



rexroadj said:


> I agree! And when its not China it will be some other "future china" before its hear. What I was talking about was theoretical and if it was ever gonna happen, thats most likely what it would take. Obviously $75 a week is not even close to a compromise in pay....BUT how close do you think we could get it (without cutting into profits, we do need to be realistic) when you cut out all the foreign travel, and all expenses attributed to it, maybe some property tax breaks for plants in the US, even utilitys are cheaper here, etc... I know it would still be far from good wages but would it ever be enough for people that need work to take it? I am sure Detroit for example must be beyond desperate at this point for some source of employment even if it were mostly minimum wage?
> I hate to keep on this topic but I am interested in your thoughts on it? Could we even get that close in the auto industry if people were willing to buy into a long term benefit of lower wages now to rebuild the country? Is there enough pride left here? I sure hope/wish.... I wont hold my breath I know that!


It can be done but not easily. The only thing holding manufacturing of domestic cars is the union. If the union were to collapse it would be by by American auto manufacturing. Most vehicles made abroad are not imported to the states so there is not much cost in shipping. The same equivalent vehicle here is 30k but it's manufactured in the states. The same car in china is 8 to 9k sale price. And is sold exclusively over their. U see the price diff? When they start importing domestic cars is when were in real trouble. mind you, you also have 6 billion Chinese that are at some point going to trade in their bicycles for cars. So more profit margin to manufacture and sell overseas. As more wealth is created over their companies can raise their prices.

The government would have to give American companies serious incentives to open up more manufacturing facilities here. But still our cars could not be made hear and sold overseas. Not going to happen. We would sell at a loss. So were limited to US sales which at current sales levels is not enough to support more operations. 

But if unskilled labor would work for say 12-15 an hour and the incentives were right from the govt. It could be done in my opinion. But only if it were based outside of UAW with no union influence. So the companies could manage their US operations and be profitable. It could be possible. But unlikely


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



PPI-ART said:


> It can be done but not easily. The only thing holding manufacturing of domestic cars is the union. If the union were to collapse it would be by by American auto manufacturing. Most vehicles made abroad are not imported to the states so there is not much cost in shipping. The same equivalent vehicle here is 30k but it's manufactured in the states. The same car in china is 8 to 9k sale price. And is sold exclusively over their. U see the price diff? When they start importing domestic cars is when were in real trouble. mind you, you also have 6 billion Chinese that are at some point going to trade in their bicycles for cars. So more profit margin to manufacture and sell overseas. As more wealth is created over their companies can raise their prices.
> 
> The government would have to give American companies serious incentives to open up more manufacturing facilities here. But still our cars could not be made hear and sold overseas. Not going to happen. We would sell at a loss. So were limited to US sales which at current sales levels is not enough to support more operations.
> 
> But if unskilled labor would work for say 12-15 an hour and the incentives were right from the govt. It could be done in my opinion. But only if it were based outside of UAW with no union influence. So the companies could manage their US operations and be profitable. It could be possible. But unlikely


Thanks for the insight....makes sense! Its a shame though Unions are a big issue in my field as well..... (talk about entitlement!)


----------



## PPI-ART

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



JAX said:


> GM used to make Hummers here where I live. I talked to GM guys when they stopped by my old employers to look at a car for sale or something.
> 
> They told me they could spill a coke on the floor and wouldnt /couldnt / didnt want to / pick it up . they had to let the overpaid clean up guy go get his mop and do it.
> 
> they were so protected or pampered they wouldnt clean up their own mess.
> 
> thats what the Union did for them.
> 
> that plant is now for the most part **** down..I mean shut down..


You would **** if you could see some of the things that happen on the assembly line. The first time I saw someone hitting 70k escalade with a hammer trying to line up the fender and hood lines I almost **** myself.


----------



## putergod

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



PPI-ART said:


> *70k escalade*


And that is one of two of the reasons GM is having such a hard time (this one being the greed of the execs, the other being the unions).
I looked at a 2011 Escalade this weekend... 71,683 on the sticker. All I could think of was "there is no way in hell I'd pay that much for a freaking pretty suburban".


----------



## PPI_GUY

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

You know, I thought dumping on manufacturers was a definate rules violation on this forum. There is a guy in this thread calling specific companies "craptastic" and "junk" among other things while being disrespectful and rude to fellow members. The same thing occured a few weeks ago and the guy got banned.


----------



## putergod

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



PPI_GUY said:


> You know, I thought dumping on manufacturers was a definate rules violation on this forum. There is a guy in this thread calling specific companies "craptastic" and "junk" among other things while being disrespectful and rude to fellow members. The same thing occured a few weeks ago and the guy got banned.


Really? Disrespectful and rude to others? I don't recall calling anyone names, using any foul language, or anything of the sort.

However, I do recall this:


putergod said:


> I respectively disagree.


and was responded to with:


> Why dont you and that other idiot that CLEARY DO NOT UNDERSTAND OR GET IT go start your own dumb ass thread?????????? Go AWAY! what is exactly your trying to add to this thread? You dont like where its going then get the **** out!
> ... you wont last long enough for the paint to dry before you out on your ass!
> You guys make me sick!


But _I've _been rude and disrespectful....


----------



## PPI_GUY

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

Uh yeah, you have.
And seeing as how this thread has gone COMPLETELY of topic, I guess it doesn't matter what you say at this point.


----------



## putergod

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

Really? I just went back and looked at my recent posts. No foul language, and nowhere did I call anyone anything. The absolute worst thing I said about anyone was insinuate that they weren't very smart - and the truth isn't disrespectful and rude.


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



putergod said:


> Really? I just went back and looked at my recent posts. No foul language, and nowhere did I call anyone anything. The absolute worst thing I said about anyone was insinuate that they weren't very smart - and the truth isn't disrespectful and rude.


Really????? Your the one that came into this thread starting this **** fest! Talking **** about stuff you have never seen, touched, or heard about. Normally this wouldnt be a big deal, but nothing you said had anything to do with the thread topic? Therefore all you have done is thread dump....A LOT!!! Dont cry about what I said.....Besides its true so I wasnt disrepectful or rude either, right?
Again....why are you even here? You have added nothing of value or even anything relative to the topic at hand? Why dont you just go start your own thread and stop ruining this one? Seriously? Why dont you?


----------



## putergod

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



rexroadj said:


> Really????? Your the one that came into this thread starting this **** fest! Talking **** about stuff you have never seen, touched, or heard about. Normally this wouldnt be a big deal, but nothing you said had anything to do with the thread topic? Therefore all you have done is thread dump....A LOT!!! Dont cry about what I said.....Besides its true so I wasnt disrepectful or rude either, right?
> Again....why are you even here? You have added nothing of value or even anything relative to the topic at hand? Why dont you just go start your own thread and stop ruining this one? Seriously? Why dont you?


OMG... and I'm the "Idiot"...

Idiot - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
1usually offensive : a person affected with extreme mental retardation 
2: a foolish or stupid person 
— idiot adjective 
Between the two of us, I'm not the one it describes.


Go back to my very first post in this thread. Let’s see... the first out of an extremely few number of times I have actually said anything derogatory to/about any individual in this thread was after YOU called me, and a few others (since I refuse to type it, I'll copy it):



> Originally Posted by rexroadj
> Am I the only one that notices that all these recent *******'s seem to all be from april 2008 and have VERY few posts???? anyone wanna explain this recent influx of Rhodes Scholar's????


Nice language. Kind of the standard for your posts it seems.

Also, if you look at my posts, they have ALL been in direct response to someone/something else. So yes, they were relevant to the thread, at the time they were made.

I also thought that DIYMA.com - Car Audio Forum & 12 volt Community Board was an "Internet Forum". 

fo•rum noun \ˈfȯr-əm\
plural forums also fo•ra\-ə\
Definition of FORUM
1a : the marketplace or public place of an ancient Roman city forming the center of judicial and public business b : a public meeting place for open discussion c : a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas 

Hmmmm.... sounds ‘bout right...


----------



## putergod

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

Quit being "butt-hurt"


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

Again....what are you adding???? Why are you here? You still havent answered that! I have used the products...I like the products and I want to know more about the new ones.....whats your deal? other then being an *******! (I expect a definition of that too Oh...pardon the cursing!


----------



## putergod

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



rexroadj said:


> Again....what are you adding???? Why are you here? You still havent answered that! I have used the products...I like the products and I want to know more about the new ones.....whats your deal? other then being an *******! (I expect a definition of that too Oh...pardon the cursing!


Is resorting to name calling, foul language, and insults the only type of response you are capable of providing?

If you need the definition, I can provide it for you...

What I have added, as alluded to a few posts above, is responses and some differing and agreeing, views of opinion to others' posts.

I TOO have used their products. I thought I mentioned that earlier? I did! I did mention that earlier! (/tweety)
Therefore, I feel my opinions and experiences are held in just with my posts.
In my opinion, and PERSONAL EXPEREINCE, lies have been spread rampant in this thread. I don't like lies to be spread rampant. It is my duty to defend against them.
:rifle:


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

People can express their opinions, no problem there. 
People can provide their experience with the product, same as above. 
However stating that one company (PPI) is crap (products) because you used a product from another company (Soundstream), even own by the same parent company, is pretty childish and is called "CRAPPING ON SOMEONE'S THREAD" 

As said above, one person got banned earlier this month because of that. 

Kelvin


----------



## putergod

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



subwoofery said:


> However stating that one company (PPI) is crap (products) because you used a product from another company (Soundstream), even own by the same parent company, is pretty childish and is called "CRAPPING ON SOMEONE'S THREAD"


So you really think/believe that "rebadging" doesn't happen at Epsilon?

Think again.

And, what I was truly "bashing" is the build quality (i.e. manufacturing process - outcome). I feel it's a pretty safe bet to say that most, if not all, of their products are built at the same (one or many) build house(s) over there - which makes it relevant.


----------



## putergod

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

It's late, I'm going to bed. Goodnight y'all!
I love you, but more importantly, Jesus loves you!!


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



putergod said:


> So you really think/believe that "rebadging" doesn't happen at Epsilon?
> 
> Think again.
> 
> 
> THIS! THIS, is what were talking about! You are spouting off about something you know nothing about! You are simply speculating because you have a hair across your ass about the company! I have owned a few different lines of there products and they were not the same boards etc..... This is what makes you an ass on here and why your "opinions" (rumor mills) are not welcomed by most! Do you understand the difference between actuall experience vs. rumors that you wish were true????
> 
> And, what I was truly "bashing" is the build quality (i.e. manufacturing process - outcome). I feel it's a pretty safe bet to say that most, if not all, of their products are built at the same (one or many) build house(s) over there - which makes it relevant.


So lets go down the list of amps you have had and also the ones you killed to show your extremely detailed scientific prognosis of all amp companys......

JL slash amps....You killed one so they are all crap? That makes sense????
Soundstream EGA.....you killed one so they are all crap from buyout date to now? Ok..... that sounds like enough of a series of tests to make that claim???? (for the record I owned the ega 5channel running a system for years and it was actually a GREAT amp especially for an entry level line...dont forget its entry level)
So those are all crap Right? Ok....

NOW..the old school SS you killed....Best amps from the 90s??? (thats wicked funny by the way) and somehow you have never heard the term SMOKESCREAM???? LOL!!!!! I am not bashing the old school SS. I loved them! But they were what they were.... They had there fair share of SERIOUS issues.
Old School PPI that died the same year you bought it is also superior to all the others? Really????? and you can justify this how? 
Seriously....Take a look at this stuff that you have said and tell us all that it makes sense and is a valid enough test to say that everything in China is crap? I am being serious.... You really think this actually sounds like something anyone here is going to take seriously....
I will say it again since you clearly dont get it....
GO AWAY! You dont like the epsilon products and this thread is about the release of new ones and those of us on here are interested in them. You are not! STOP THREAD DUMPING!


----------



## n_olympios

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



ChrisB said:


> There was a double Din unit from overseas that caught my attention and made me start thinking of the possibilities. Unfortunately, for the Parrot unit, external processing would still be a must. At least, as of right now.


Perhaps, but this will be opensourced and Parrot has promised to distribute the DTK freely. 

It's a shame what's been done to this thread.


----------



## ChrisB

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



n_olympios said:


> Perhaps, but this will be opensourced and Parrot has promised to distribute the DTK freely.


We can dream, can't we?



n_olympios said:


> It's a shame what's been done to this thread.


I used to always be the negative naysayer, but, I decided to let the product speak for itself. I try to keep an open mind these days because I have been pleasantly surprised by those diamonds in the rough from other brands. The Cerwin Vega EXL-400.4 and the Clarion DPX1851 are two budget choices that were extreme values for their price. 

Sadly, Epsilon had a tough road ahead of them for what DEI did to the PPI name. I remember how no one purchased the DEI PPI 365cs component speakers even though they were almost exact copies of the highly regarded a/d/s 346cs. Then when they blew them out a couple of years ago, the DEI PPI 365cs components were huge forum boners.


----------



## putergod

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



rexroadj said:


> THIS! THIS, is what were talking about! You are spouting off about something you know nothing about! You are simply speculating because you have a hair across your ass about the company! I have owned a few different lines of there products and they were not the same boards etc..... This is what makes you an ass on here and why your "opinions" (rumor mills) are not welcomed by most! Do you understand the difference between actuall experience vs. rumors that you wish were true????


Wow… You really don’t “get it”. It’s not opinion, it’s fact. Put down the kool-aid.



rexroadj said:


> So lets go down the list of amps you have had and also the ones you killed to show your extremely detailed scientific prognosis of all amp companys......
> 
> JL slash amps....You killed one so they are all crap? That makes sense????


It was just yet, another (among many) Chinese amp to go poof…



rexroadj said:


> Soundstream EGA.....you killed one so they are all crap from buyout date to now? Ok..... that sounds like enough of a series of tests to make that claim???? (for the record I owned the ega 5channel running a system for years and it was actually a GREAT amp especially for an entry level line...dont forget its entry level)
> So those are all crap Right? Ok....


Congrats! Your experience vs mine. Isn’t it great to be able to each share our own experiences with each other? 



rexroadj said:


> NOW..the old school SS you killed....Best amps from the 90s??? (thats wicked funny by the way) and somehow you have never heard the term SMOKESCREAM???? LOL!!!!! I am not bashing the old school SS. I loved them! But they were what they were.... They had there fair share of SERIOUS issues.


Whoa there nelly! Not sure where ya got that. It may have developed an issue, but it certainly isn't "dead" (and it's lasted MUCH longer than any chinese amp I have ever seen while taking much more abuse than any chinese amp I've ever seen has been capable of). That SS has given 15 years of ½ ohm “abusive” performance. Try not to speak out your butt. And never once went “smokestream” on me. I’ll take some pics for ya! Maybe a vid?



rexroadj said:


> Old School PPI that died the same year you bought it is also superior to all the others? Really????? and you can justify this how?


I said that WHEN exactly? I used that amp from 1992 through 1999. That must have been one hell of a long year!

You lost all credibility that you may have had with this post.

I’m done with you. Keep drinking… 
Me and my “poor” (and many profanities) self will continue enjoyed quality.

This WILL be my LAST response to YOU (even if you choose to continue your profanity slinging my way)….

G’day.


----------



## PPI_GUY

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

Well, I see this thread is still on the road to oblivion. It's very sad that one person with a vendetta has been allowed to ruin this discussion. Why do I say vendetta? Because he is allowed to denegrate and dump all over a manufacturer without offering proof of his claims. He has now moved on from simple name-calling(craptastic, junk) to allegations of "rebadging". Really? Just what models of SS/PPI amps share boards with other "lesser" (in your mind) brands in the Epsilon family. Quite frankly 'putergod', if you cannot offer proof of your allegations then, my opinion is that you should be banned.


----------



## PPI_GUY

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*

*BACK ON TOPIC...*
Can those interested in a new Art Series (at some point down the road) please list the features they would most like to see included in such a series? 
I would suggest the following...

A goal of studio grade sound quality for the entire lineup
Balanced inputs
Soft and hard clipping indicators
Fast switching compact, Class D design (full-range and mono)
Daisy chain ability on mono amps
Signal sensing (no need for remote-on)
Ultra flexible (multiplier, bandpass) crossover filters
Auto-rollback for voltage drops
Attractive retro-inspired heatsink
Full live manufacturer support/help line and/or live chat for this series only

...just some things that immediately come to mind.

Another thought would be a series of Art headunits and processors that would take full advantage of the features mentioned above and those to be added by other posters. The headunit features might include time alignment, on board parametric EQ, dual high resolution DAC's, optical outputs and more. Epsilon might even make those "extra's" in the form of upgrades that could be downloaded as apps or software revsions. So, if you wanted tio add time alignment but not an EQ, you decide on what you want and customize your own h/u/.
The Art external processor lineup would include something similiar to the MS-8 that Grizz seems very fond of and along with a basic OEM integration unit. I could see a whole line of Art amps, headunits, processors, subs, components and even cables, connectors and accessories.


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



PPI_GUY said:


> *BACK ON TOPIC...*
> Can those interested in a new Art Series (at some point down the road) please list the features they would most like to see included in such a series?
> I would suggest the following...
> 
> A goal of studio grade sound quality for the entire lineup
> Balanced inputs
> Soft and hard clipping indicators
> Fast switching compact, Class D design (full-range and mono)
> Daisy chain ability on mono amps
> Signal sensing (no need for remote-on)
> Ultra flexible (multiplier, bandpass) crossover filters
> Auto-rollback for voltage drops
> Attractive retro-inspired heatsink
> Full live manufacturer support/help line and/or live chat for this series only
> 
> ...just some things that immediately come to mind.
> 
> Another thought would be a series of Art headunits and processors that would take full advantage of the features mentioned above and those to be added by other posters. The headunit features might include time alignment, on board parametric EQ, dual high resolution DAC's, optical outputs and more. Epsilon might even make those "extra's" in the form of upgrades that could be downloaded as apps or software revsions. So, if you wanted tio add time alignment but not an EQ, you decide on what you want and customize your own h/u/.
> The Art external processor lineup would include something similiar to the MS-8 that Grizz seems very fond of and along with a basic OEM integration unit. I could see a whole line of Art amps, headunits, processors, subs, components and even cables, connectors and accessories.


X2 on all of that....I really like the idea of online support/chat for a particular model.... Makes it a little more "special" I think that would be a really nice touch along with all the other features you listed. I would love to see a processor geared more like the new rockford 363 personally vs. the ms-8 but anything in between would be awesome! I would rather see it built into the amps and maybe run some sort of proprietary cable from amp to amp with an input from a laptop to program each amps output channel to what ever the heck you need and then unplug and forget (similar to zapco). If its an external processor I would like to be able to run blt cables from the processor to amp (ppi decks as well. I think that would be great personally! 
I cant wait to get my hands on the new DD! I really like it on paper thus far. 

As a side note, I would like to apologize to the members on this thread (with the exception of a couple) for my part in the bantering back and forth. I could have used more tact and let it go all together. My reasoning for getting heated is because when people like "insert name here" (there has been a few) come in here with no purpose but to slander a product or company for no reason or having nothing to do with the topic at hand it looks bad for the forum as a whole and is what drives manufacturers away from posting here. That just cant happen! They are WAY to valuable a resource on here for those of us willing to use there knowledge and to get ACTUAL answers to things rather then bitting into the rumor mill. I sincerely hope this guy gets banned even if it means I have to go with him for my part. I will gladly take one for the team to see him gone!
Again, Sorry to you guys for my actions....


----------



## KillerBox

I love the look of the original white PPI Art Series. I was in school and could never afford them though  

I would be interested in a very high powered five channel amplifier with one power cable for simple wiring. I would like something like 200w x 4 channels and 800 w x 1 channel @ 12v. I would be even happier if it was white with "throwback" art work on it.


----------



## PPI_GUY

With the idea of "throwback" artwork, we may be getting back into the issue with CHY and while the thought of that may be nice, Grizz has already said that pretty much isn't a possibility now. 
The features that I threw out there were just off the top of my head and were some, that I feel, would be very popular with a wide consumer base. Don't forget, Epsilon needs to make money from these products as well.
Laptop programable amps would probably be to cost prohibitive at this time although I can definately see some high-end manufacturer adding that option down the road. Analog controls will probabaly be the standard for the immediate future.

All the features I mentioned are already available in some combination on various amps currently in the marketplace. Optional optical inputs might be a nice touch as well for those SQ freaks who want to get away from RCA connectors as the industry standard.
I guess I would just like too see an "Art replacement" bring together the best technology available and put it in a nice retro P-P-I package. However, it doesn't need to called "Art" to be a special product.

Those new Phantom amps seem to be on the right track although a retro heatsink might have been appealing to a broader range of consumers. Maybe a combination of the Black Ice look with the Class D topology in the Phantoms and a few (if not all) of the features mentioned above?


----------



## subwoofery

KillerBox said:


> I love the look of the original white PPI Art Series. I was in school and could never afford them though
> 
> I would be interested in a very high powered five channel amplifier with one power cable for simple wiring. I would like something like _*200w x 4 channels and 800 w x 1 channel @ 12v*_. I would be even happier if it was white with "throwback" art work on it.


Although that can be fun, I don't see that happening. Not from PPI 
The HR amps were one of the best and they had to kill it's production coz no one would pay the price for it. 

Kelvin


----------



## KillerBox

I am sorry but, I have been out of car stereos for about 10 years what "issue with CHY" are you talking about?

Also, what is a HR Amps?


----------



## subwoofery

KillerBox said:


> I am sorry but, I have been out of car stereos for about 10 years what "issue with CHY" are you talking about?
> 
> Also, what is a HR Amps?


Human Reign old version









Human Reign new version









Kelvin


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

subwoofery said:


> Human Reign old version
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kelvin


OK, I admit that until Dave and Grizz encountered each other, and I had to deal with the fiasco, I had not been paying attention to car audio, just to my friends in the business -- For me it was like when you realize it is less painful to not know what an EX is up to. But, WOW!!! How did I miss this? The older HR amps are too beautiful! I love them! Who created them? It would have blown my mind to get this level of freedom. I had to create within so many limitations including function, size, costs, tooling, assembly process etc. If anyone knows who was behind these amps, and how to reach them, I would like to know. I bow in humility.
Thanks!
Carolyn Hall Young


----------



## rexroadj

The divinci's and original tarantula's were pretty impressive too! (not to the extreme level of the original HR but extremely impressive in person!)




(not my pics)


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

rexroadj said:


> The divinci's and original tarantula's were pretty impressive too! (not to the extreme level of the original HR but extremely impressive in person!)
> 
> 
> (not my pics)



Looking at these photos, I am drawn to the DaVinci, which I think I have seen before, because it resounds with my personal aesthetic. 
Thanks for this, Rexroadj. 
xxoo chy


----------



## imjustjason

Carolyn Hall Young said:


> I bow in humility.
> Thanks!
> Carolyn Hall Young



IDK, less is more.


----------



## slowsedan01

The HR's were always over the top for my tastes. I loved the DaVinci's, Tarantula's, and Van Gogh's. Was Karl Cummings responsible for all of these sweet amps?


----------



## rexroadj

slowsedan01 said:


> The HR's were always over the top for my tastes. I loved the DaVinci's, Tarantula's, and Van Gogh's. Was Karl Cummings responsible for all of these sweet amps?


Thats what I was wondering? I know Karl did the Van Goghs....... I was not a fan of the original HRs... Would have loved the davinci in anything other then gold! Love the latest HRU though!


----------



## Grizz Archer

subwoofery said:


> Human Reign old version
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Human Reign new version
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kelvin


Actually, that version never came to be because the chassis was crazy money. We were looking at an iPod type of look. But the new ones did come out in an all black chassis and were 1/2 the price since the original were so expensive. Even at 1/2 price, nobody would buy them. Such a shame. If people could not afford them, then that is one thing. But when people continually ask for high end equipment and then never buy it, it just kills the high end part of the industry. What alot of people do not understand is that the market tells us exactly what we need to know. If we sold mostly Reference and Power Class, we would know that the market is really wanting high end. But the market, in actuality, only cares about cheap. We cannot make upper echelon product just so that forums will like us and never buy anything.


----------



## bkjay

rexroadj said:


> Thats what I was wondering? I know Karl did the Van Goghs....... I was not a fan of the original HRs... Would have loved the davinci in anything other then gold! Love the latest HRU though!


In one of the Soundstream threads I believe Wade Steward said he made the Davinci before he left SS.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1038159-post41.html


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

imjustjason said:


> IDK, less is more.


My dear Jason, 
Thank you again and again. I had to look up what "IDK" meant, so now, I know. IDn'tK before.

I am trying to say this, without sounding as though I am an egotistical jerk, but I love those amps so much, like a stranger, as if I didn't have anything to do with them. 

When I finish a painting, I am always surprised that it is good as it is. In spite of the years I have spend working to refine my eye and my abilities, I always think that I must have just been lucky to happen to be there when the painting appeared.

While working on the first concepts for Xtant, I had been so beaten up and disillusioned by the transition from what had been old PPI, that I doubted my ability to live up to anybody's expectations. 

The pressure was huge, the time frame was short. We all agreed that these amps had to be different from anything resembling PPI. The PPI "look" had come from a long evolution of my own personal art, the origins of which evolved from my drawing classical buildings in Rome in the mid 1970s. 

Suddenly, I had to switch gears into something that would separate Xtant, from our PPI roots. I came up with piles of ideas that were too expensive to execute, and there were so many new mechanical hurdles to over come. The rules had changed.

I tossed everything aside, and went outside to do anything BUT think about the amp design. At that moment, the zillionth phone call came in asking about what it was going to be, and when would it be done, and I had to say I didn't know. When I hung up the phone, however, I saw it. I knew it had to be an elegant, minimalist, sculpture. I knew it would have to be absolutely pure and simple, with honest materials that might have a chance of getting better with age, unlike coatings or veneers, and could be refinished or recycled. It then became clear what it was going to be. 

For timing and cost, I had to use existing dies, so I visited a metal fabricator and hounded them with questions. I looked at all kinds of metals and meshes, even diamond plate. You know the rest. 

Like when I am painting and I just happened to be present when the painting made itself, the Xtant bodies and badges came out of nowhere. I just was there in time to say, "But, of course." 

Now I need to learn about less is more in words. IDK.

Is this off subject? 
My best to all of you. I appreciate your kindness.
xxoo Carolyn Hall Young (Extant in New Mexico)
P.S. The photo below was taken yesterday. It is my 1982 Fiat Turbo Spider.


----------



## Horsemanwill

i loved the davinci's look but not the size.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

whoever decided to use plugs needs to be spanked.

that is all.


----------



## KillerBox

Human Reign old version

Thanks, I have never knew the Human Reign amp existed before this picture. It looks awesome! Now, to see if anyone has a Human Reign old version four channel and a two channel for sale...


----------



## rexroadj

KillerBox said:


> Human Reign old version
> 
> Thanks, I have never knew the Human Reign amp existed before this picture. It looks awesome! Now, to see if anyone has a Human Reign old version four channel and a two channel for sale...


Good luck finding them! If you do, you can plan on spending upwards of $5k for them! Last 4channel I saw sold for $3500.00 
The new ones are the exact same internals for $500.00!!!! The 2 channels are pretty hard to find in either model...... I had 2 of the new ones. My brother inlaw has one now and I just sold the other one.... They are spectacular amps and its a shame they are no longer offered. Very sleek and sexy looking too imo. Honestly though, aside from the ability to cool off...the new SS refs are every bit as good as the HRU's. Given the option again I would buy the ref over the hru and save a TON of money and easily have as good sound/power! The xovers on the ref4.920 are actually more adjustable then the HRU. 
Its just to damn bad they are so big  
If they can make a new ppi line small with the same SUPER clean power the refs do...... I WILL BE FIRST IN LINE! If you havent used a new ref amp yet, you dont know what your missing. Grizz is offering (soon I think?) Diyma deals for epsilon products (ppi/ss, etc...)..... Look up Diyma Epsilon deals...there is a thread about it on here somewhere?


----------



## dave_damage

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



putergod said:


> Almost did... until I looked inside and saw the craptastic circuit board. I was still expecting to see what I saw inside my 10.0 (and the Ref 500 I was holding for a short time for someone else), not the POS I actually saw. Then I started doing some research and learned that SS was bought out by a craptastic company, and any replacement would be equally crappy. Instead, I directed my energy (and money) to obtaining a quality piece to run beside my 10.0 since SS wasn't going to make the cut.
> In came US Amps (this was before they got bought too).


Just a FYI. The Edge amp was the "Entry Level" amp of that time. At that time, they offered Soundstream Tarantula TR amps. (Chrome with the raised spider) and the highly sought after Van Gogh amps. That would be like buying a Ford Festiva and wondering why it did not preform like a Mustang. You bought a entry level amp. The fault is more on you for not researching your purchase, and finding the product that was more suitable for your needs. A little effort would have put you in the direction of the Van Gogh 300/4 or one of the best 4 channel amplifiers Soundstream (New or Old) has ever made, the Van Gogh 500/4


----------



## KillerBox

rexroadj said:


> The new ones are the exact same internals for $500.00!!!! The 2 channels are pretty hard to find in either model...... I had 2 of the new ones.


Where can you find the new ones for $500.00? I found the 4 channel for $500.00 but, the 2 channel was $1,000.00.


----------



## rexroadj

KillerBox said:


> Where can you find the new ones for $500.00? I found the 4 channel for $500.00 but, the 2 channel was $1,000.00.


Yeah sorry....I was referring to the 4channel when I mentioned the $500.... I think I saw them for $800 or so a while back but I am certain they were not authorized so.......................................................


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



dave_damage said:


> Just a FYI. The Edge amp was the "Entry Level" amp of that time. At that time, they offered Soundstream Tarantula TR amps. (Chrome with the raised spider) and the highly sought after Van Gogh amps. That would be like buying a Ford Festiva and wondering why it did not preform like a Mustang. You bought a entry level amp. The fault is more on you for not researching your purchase, and finding the product that was more suitable for your needs. A little effort would have put you in the direction of the Van Gogh 300/4 or one of the best 4 channel amplifiers Soundstream (New or Old) has ever made, the Van Gogh 500/4


Dave, 
Dont waste your breath! 
I completely agree though.......the van gogh's were astounding amps!!! Now and then! 

(I thought the edge amps for the money were really great! I ran a set of quart q's bridge off 4 channels of the 5channel amp and the sub channel beat the snot out of an ID 12 ported......It was great, especially for the $$$ super clean sound!)


----------



## dave_damage

*Re: PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued*



rexroadj said:


> Dave,
> Dont waste your breath!
> I completely agree though.......the van gogh's were astounding amps!!! Now and then!
> 
> (I thought the edge amps for the money were really great! I ran a set of quart q's bridge off 4 channels of the 5channel amp and the sub channel beat the snot out of an ID 12 ported......It was great, especially for the $$$ super clean sound!)


I have a edge 4220 In my Mustang that I have been using for 7 years hooked to a set of Van Gogh comps up front and a set of Tarantula Coax in the back and it sounds amazing. I am a rare bread. I have been a loyal Soundstream customer since 1995. I have seen 3 owners of the Soundstream name, and have products from all 3 eras. Soundstream was once known as a all high end company. But in today's market, that's just not feasible. Soundstream still makes some great products. They also make some not so great ones. Being a little knowledgeable about what you are buying makes all the difference.


----------



## putergod

dave_damage said:


> Just a FYI. The Edge amp was the "Entry Level" amp of that time. At that time, they offered Soundstream Tarantula TR amps. (Chrome with the raised spider) and the highly sought after Van Gogh amps. That would be like buying a Ford Festiva and wondering why it did not preform like a Mustang. You bought a entry level amp. The fault is more on you for not researching your purchase, and finding the product that was more suitable for your needs. A little effort would have put you in the direction of the Van Gogh 300/4 or one of the best 4 channel amplifiers Soundstream (New or Old) has ever made, the Van Gogh 500/4





rexroadj said:


> Dave,
> Dont waste your breath!
> I completely agree though.......the van gogh's were astounding amps!!! Now and then!
> 
> (I thought the edge amps for the money were really great! I ran a set of quart q's bridge off 4 channels of the 5channel amp and the sub channel beat the snot out of an ID 12 ported......It was great, especially for the $$$ super clean sound!)


You two have the same PM.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Grizz, are there any new P-P-I processors on the horizon? Looking at the website it appears the EQ's and Bass Enhancement are the same that have been offered for sometime now. Maybe a P-P-I version of the MS-8 or Cleansweep?


----------



## n_olympios

Carolyn Hall Young said:


> P.S. The photo below was taken yesterday. It is my 1982 Fiat Turbo Spider.


I love you even more now. :blush: :heart: :heart: :heart:


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

n_olympios said:


> I love you even more now. :blush: :heart: :heart: :heart:


And you made my day! 
I have a sick horse who needs my attention, so I have to fly, but I had to thank you.
Are you really in Greece? 
xxoo with love and thanks,
Carolyn Hall Young


----------



## n_olympios

Carolyn Hall Young said:


> Are you really in Greece?


Yep, I and a close friend are the only greek members in here. 

I hope the horse gets better soon.


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> Grizz, are there any new P-P-I processors on the horizon? Looking at the website it appears the EQ's and Bass Enhancement are the same that have been offered for sometime now. Maybe a P-P-I version of the MS-8 or Cleansweep?


Not exactly. I am not really interested in making anything like the Clean Sweep. I have one and it did work well. But I just put in a new MS-8 in my vehicle. Game over, JBL wins with the ultimate processor. It's funny, I remember 25+ years ago thinking, "I wonder if someday there will be a product that can automatically time align all the speakers in car, and then auto eq the entire vehicle?!" The JBL MS-8 is easily one of the coolest products I have ever seen in my life. Now that I am in my 40s and my abusive listening when I was younger is taking it's toll, I find it harder for me to eq my vehicle. I certainly would not compete anymore if I had to rely on my own tuning skills. I hear great, but my tuning skills have degraded a bit over time, expectedly.

I have a rather different system due to the locations available in my '09 Jeep 4-door JK Wrangler. Since I love to have my top and doors off, I use the oem 6.5" sealed enclosures in the dash that fire right into your crotch. I have 2.5" mids and tweeters in the a-pilars. My rear fill in on the freaking rollbar directly behind your head. I could not tune it to save my life. The MS-8, in a matter of minutes time aligned everything and then equalized everything. It sounds phenomenal! And get this, I have not even done any tweaking of my own yet. Every control on my radio and all of the manual eq function on the MS-8 are flat and untouched. My wife's 2010 Mazda 3 will be getting one soon. I am ripping out the current system, putting in an MS-8 and adding a single 8" sub. Done!

I am honestly blown away! And while I am basically making a freaking commercial for them in this email, they deserve it. I cannot think of anything that it needs. No wait, I lied. There are 8 channels. I am using a single input per the direction in the manual. But I have 3-way components. Brilliantly, they accommodate this. But if I add my rear fill, that is all 8 channels. I need 6 channel for the front, 2 for the rear, 1 for sub and 1 for center. An MS-10 would be perfect or even and MS-12 for rear components, event that that is moronic in imho. I'd give the MS-8 an overall rating of 95%. Oh, and I would like to be able to tune the colors on the display. Ok, that is being too anal...

Not sure why I just wrote all of that but I am just so freaking excited about it. Hence the reason why we will probably never even try to compete with that.


----------



## starboy869

Now only if you had something like the ppi par 650. I've been looking for one for 2+yrs and I still haven't found one fs anywhere.


----------



## Darth SQ

Carolyn Hall Young said:


> Is this off subject?
> My best to all of you. I appreciate your kindness.
> xxoo Carolyn Hall Young (Extant in New Mexico)
> P.S. The photo below was taken yesterday. It is my 1982 Fiat Turbo Spider.


So Carolyn,
What sound setup are you going to put in that Italian exotic?
BTW, here's some pics of my old Italian exotic.
Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> So Carolyn,
> What sound setup are you going to put in that Italian exotic?
> BTW, here's some pics of my old Italian exotic.
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


YOU HAD A PANTERA?!?! I have been wanting to build one my whole freaking life. I have only found a gutted rolling chassis for $15k and could not swing it.


----------



## Grizz Archer

starboy869 said:


> Now only if you had something like the ppi par 650. I've been looking for one for 2+yrs and I still haven't found one fs anywhere.


I am not find of the one we have now. Works fine, but I just do not care for the dual zone. Great for open-show vehicles. If I had my way, I would make on like the PAR 245...


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> YOU HAD A PANTERA?!?! I have been wanting to build one my whole freaking life. I have only found a gutted rolling chassis for $15k and could not swing it.


Best to find one that is complete and running.
Parts are extremely hard to find.
Most fun car I ever owned.
Got my wife to the hospital to give birth to our first really, really fast.

Now, here's the saddest most lame story you will ever hear.
I few years later, my wife tells me I need to sell some of my toys and by a family car.

I had to choose from three cars to sell.

1974 Detomaso Pantera.
1967 396 Chevrolet Impala SS (been in my family since new)
1967 Ford Mustang Convertible.

Naturally, she insisted on keeping the convertible.
Since it was my only two seater in the stable, it had to go.
Believe me when I say that I tried to figure out how to mount a baby seat on the console hump between the two front seats but it just wouldn't work.
So I sold it to a retired Scottsdale cop.
Now, if that wasn't bad enough, I officially became neutered the next week because I took the money from the sale and I bought a frickin' Windstar.
Then I sold the Windstar and the Impala and bought a Honda Odyssey.

Women have all the power.

I tell my wife when I see a Pantera from time to time that I will buy another one someday.
She tells me I have had my fun and to get over it.
I know, I suck.
But I still have the Mustang....for now.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

n_olympios said:


> Yep, I and a close friend are the only greek members in here.
> 
> I hope the horse gets better soon.


I hope she gets better soon, too. Meanwhile she is on medications and big doses of tender loving care. She's been with me for 18 of her 25 years. I have another guy who has been here for 20 out of his 40. Yes, this is unusually old, but he is as healthy as a... horse.

I have fond memories of my visits to Greece, on the mainland and through the islands, beginning in 1958, when my family lived in Istanbul and Ankara briefly, and then through the years.

It continues to impress me that we can come together, this way. I send my best wishes to you. 

Adios, amigo,
Carolyn xxoo


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> So Carolyn,
> What sound setup are you going to put in that Italian exotic?
> BTW, here's some pics of my old Italian exotic.
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Nice car, Brett, do you know if it is still running. The people who I know who have Panteras are usually working on them. My friend, David, who rebuilds Porches, Alfas and Ferraris for fun, calls his Pantera "The Mistake."

I bought the Fiat new in 82: pre Warren, pre-car audio. In the early 2000's Warren was pushing practicality, so we sold it. I missed her every day, and like a miracle found her again in 2008-- my original car, slightly battered, but with my heart still in her. 

The sound set up is me singing as I drive, plus the sweet music of the engine, the roar of the road and the wind. We have to adjust the brakes first, fix the turn signals next, and then we will consider the other music. An ipod and earbuds may be the best approach for this car -- it is not exactly an ideal environment for showing off SQ, and I always drive with the top down. 

I'm saving the beautiful A100...
xxoo chy


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

I need to remember to tell Warren that Bret says women have all the power. He keeps forgetting. Remind me, again, why someone needs three motorcycles? 
xxoo chy


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

Grizz Archer said:


> YOU HAD A PANTERA?!?! I have been wanting to build one my whole freaking life. I have only found a gutted rolling chassis for $15k and could not swing it.


Grizz,
Do you still want a Pantera?
xxoo chy


----------



## rexroadj

Carolyn Hall Young said:


> Nice car, Brett, do you know if it is still running. The people who I know who have Panteras are usually working on them. My friend, David, who rebuilds Porches, Alfas and Ferraris for fun, calls his Pantera "The Mistake."
> 
> I bought the Fiat new in 82: pre Warren, pre-car audio. In the early 2000's Warren was pushing practicality, so we sold it. I missed her every day, and like a miracle found her again in 2008-- my original car, slightly battered, but with my heart still in her.
> 
> The sound set up is me singing as I drive, plus the sweet music of the engine, the roar of the road and the wind. We have to adjust the brakes first, fix the turn signals next, and then we will consider the other music. An ipod and earbuds may be the best approach for this car -- it is not exactly an ideal environment for showing off SQ, and I always drive with the top down.
> 
> I'm saving the beautiful A100...
> xxoo chy


Mrs Young, 
Please be very careful if you choose to use earbuds or any headphones (or better yet, reconsider completely). In most states it is illegal and can be very dangerous. I bring this up only for the safety of yourself, family, and the obvious selfish want of you being part of this forum 
(besides a pair of 15"s and 5k watts is much safer


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

rexroadj said:


> Mrs Young,
> Please be very careful if you choose to use earbuds or any headphones (or better yet, reconsider completely). In most states it is illegal and can be very dangerous. I bring this up only for the safety of yourself, family, and the obvious selfish want of you being part of this forum
> (besides a pair of 15"s and 5k watts is much safer


Mr. RoadJ,
You can call me Carolyn. You are, of course, right about earbuds and headphones. If they aren't illegal in NM already, they will be sometime. I appreciate your concern, and I thank you for making me feel welcome. 

JL sent me some speakers as a gift, which didn't arrive, and then other things complicated the process to the degree that singing really stupid, made up songs about my old dogs, horses and husband seemed like a good enough solution.

I do miss the music, but my car is so much fun to drive that I don't feel too deprived. I know this is not a forum in which I should say that aloud. I'll get this solved sooner or later. Don't worry.

xxoo Carolyn


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Best to find one that is complete and running.
> Parts are extremely hard to find.
> Most fun car I ever owned.
> Got my wife to the hospital to give birth to our first really, really fast.
> 
> Now, here's the saddest most lame story you will ever hear.
> I few years later, my wife tells me I need to sell some of my toys and by a family car.
> 
> I had to choose from three cars to sell.
> 
> 1974 Detomaso Pantera.
> 1967 396 Chevrolet Impala SS (been in my family since new)
> 1967 Ford Mustang Convertible.
> 
> Naturally, she insisted on keeping the convertible.
> Since it was my only two seater in the stable, it had to go.
> Believe me when I say that I tried to figure out how to mount a baby seat on the console hump between the two front seats but it just wouldn't work.
> So I sold it to a retired Scottsdale cop.
> Now, if that wasn't bad enough, I officially became neutered the next week because I took the money from the sale and I bought a frickin' Windstar.
> Then I sold the Windstar and the Impala and bought a Honda Odyssey.
> 
> Women have all the power.
> 
> I tell my wife when I see a Pantera from time to time that I will buy another one someday.
> She tells me I have had my fun and to get over it.
> I know, I suck.
> But I still have the Mustang....for now.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Honorable thing to do. But remember, eventually the kids move out...


----------



## Grizz Archer

Carolyn Hall Young said:


> Grizz,
> Do you still want a Pantera?
> xxoo chy


Yes, dear, I dream about owning one. I would take one over a Ferrari in a heartbeat! Where I live, Ferraris are like Mercedes - everywhere. I want something different. The Pantera is just amazing. I'm sure I will never have one, but hey, that's what makes a dream a dream...


----------



## PPI_GUY

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Best to find one that is complete and running.
> Parts are extremely hard to find.
> Most fun car I ever owned.
> Got my wife to the hospital to give birth to our first really, really fast.
> 
> Now, here's the saddest most lame story you will ever hear.
> I few years later, my wife tells me I need to sell some of my toys and by a family car.
> 
> I had to choose from three cars to sell.
> 
> 1974 Detomaso Pantera.
> 1967 396 Chevrolet Impala SS (been in my family since new)
> 1967 Ford Mustang Convertible.
> 
> Naturally, she insisted on keeping the convertible.
> Since it was my only two seater in the stable, it had to go.
> Believe me when I say that I tried to figure out how to mount a baby seat on the console hump between the two front seats but it just wouldn't work.
> So I sold it to a retired Scottsdale cop.
> Now, if that wasn't bad enough, I officially became neutered the next week because I took the money from the sale and I bought a frickin' Windstar.
> Then I sold the Windstar and the Impala and bought a Honda Odyssey.
> 
> Women have all the power.
> 
> I tell my wife when I see a Pantera from time to time that I will buy another one someday.
> She tells me I have had my fun and to get over it.
> I know, I suck.
> But I still have the Mustang....for now.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Atleast you sold the Windstar.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Carolyn Hall Young said:


> I need to remember to tell Warren that Bret says women have all the power. He keeps forgetting. Remind me, again, why someone needs three motorcycles?
> xxoo chy


LOL I suppose the correct answer would be, for the love of riding and collecting. In my mind it would be because I could not find a Pantera...


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> LOL I suppose the correct answer would be, for the love of riding and collecting. In my mind it would be because I could not find a Pantera...


Priceless!:laugh:

I still owe you an ale at a microbrewery up here in NorCal.
My treat.
I'm going to Pyramid Brewery this weekend for my birthday.
Time to consume mass quantities of Snow Cap since I know I won't
be receiving a Pantera as a present.
Which I don't get because she got her dream home remodel and a brand new
frickin' TOTL kitchen and bathroom.:mean:

Women have all the power.:mean::mean:

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Priceless!:laugh:
> 
> I still owe you an ale at a microbrewery up here in NorCal.
> My treat.
> I'm going to Pyramid Brewery this weekend for my birthday.
> Time to consume mass quantities of Snow Cap since I know I won't
> be receiving a Pantera as a present.
> Which I don't get because she got her dream home remodel and a brand new
> frickin' TOTL kitchen and bathroom.:mean:
> 
> Women have all the power.:mean::mean:
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Happy Birthday Bret! 
Pantera vs No Pantera and a beautiful family:
I'm thinking you also got to create progeny, and that you might be benefiting from the use of the new kitchen and bath. 
Does Linda teach these skills? I seem to be missing the ability to negotiate as effectively as she does, or maybe it is Warren that needs the training.
xxoo chy


----------



## Lanson

subwoofery said:


> Human Reign old version
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Human Reign new version
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kelvin



Except they don't look like that. They look like this:











































PM if you want mine. BTW these people selling at places like woofersetc. Might want to call and ASK if they actually have one, vs. taking your money, then trying to find one for you, then not finding one they call and recommend a "suitable replacement". LOL.

I would love to keep mine for ever and ever but my new vehicle can't fit such a big amp. I do plan on going with the SS Stealth amps though, They look absolutely great.


----------



## rexroadj

Here is a original HR 2 channel...there are a few on ebay right now (one is $2500) 
This one just has some great pics!!!!!!!!!!

Soundstream human Reign Car amplifier NICE - eBay (item 180628281369 end time Feb-25-11 19:29:46 PST)

And of course the tarantula (which doesnt look right to me?) but again, great pics!

Old School Sound Stream TR500/4 NICE - eBay (item 180628272004 end time Feb-28-11 18:54:41 PST)


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Priceless!:laugh:
> 
> I still owe you an ale at a microbrewery up here in NorCal.
> My treat.
> I'm going to Pyramid Brewery this weekend for my birthday.
> Time to consume mass quantities of Snow Cap since I know I won't
> be receiving a Pantera as a present.
> Which I don't get because she got her dream home remodel and a brand new
> frickin' TOTL kitchen and bathroom.:mean:
> 
> Women have all the power.:mean::mean:
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Ya know, that just might happen. I LOVE microbreweries. I go to the Newpport Beach one now and then and I am a mug club member at Huintington Beach Brewing Company. 

Women have as much power as we let them have. We tend to give them all the power because we love them and need them. In a good reciprocating relationship, it goes both ways. Nobody in my house "wears the pants" we share everything. I always joke with friends and say, "Hey, she may pick-out and buy all of my pants and tell me when to wear them, but I wear them all by myself!"


----------



## starboy869

Grizz Archer said:


> I am not find of the one we have now. Works fine, but I just do not care for the dual zone. Great for open-show vehicles. If I had my way, I would make on like the PAR 245...


The PAR 245 still sells for like $150/$200 easy. A PAR 650 is my goal to aquire. pff f'in good luck

the dual zone is a $58 whore out on ebay eq.


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz,
Let me know when you're up this way.
As you know, NorCal is ground zero for microbreweries.
When I'm back East, I am always amazed at how many of the NorCal
brands are on the store shelves.

As for the wife, she is kinda hard to say no too.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------

