# Critical Mass Audio Who wants to see?



## yogegoy

I didn't buy this paying MSRP, so arguing about how much they cost and related issues that come with it isn't necessary. I just want to show the inside since people are dying to criticize it so much.

*CM UL A2500* US $5,749.00 msrp
Features:
Mono block digital subwoofer amplifier
Bass Boost at 50Hz control: 6-12dB
Balanced low input & high input
Variable subsonic filter 10~50Hz, 18dB/OCT
Variable low pass filter 40~220Hz, 24dB/OCT
Protection circuit for thermal, short circuit
and reverse polarity connection of Battery
.75 ohm stable
Small Footprint
Light Weight
Ultra High Efficiency

Specifications: 
Frequency response 9Hz~250Hz
RMS power at 4 Ω mono 1320w
RMS power at 2 Ω mono 1950w
RMS power at 0.75Ω mono 2520w
Max power 3000w
T.H.D 0.01%
Input sensitivity 200mV~8V
Input impedance 92K Ω
Damping factor >520
S/N ratio 105dB




































































*HYBRID UL CLASS AMPLIFIER* $12,000.00 msrp

The Ctitical MASS UL-A5 is the most powerful amplifier of it's kind! Having 5 channels in total, with 4 full range channels @ 200W x 4 @ 2 Ohms + a single monoblock @ 2500W at .75 Ohms. Delivering up to 2500W at .75 Ohms to one of out UL-12's or 2000W to four SS subwoofers at .5 Ohms.

SPECIFICATIONS AND FEATURES:

- Monoblock digital subwoofer amplifier

- Remote bass boost at 60Hz control: 0 - 18 dB

- Balanced low input and high input

- Line out ( by pass )

- Variable subsonic filter 15 ~ 30 Hz, 18dB/OCT

- Variable low pass filter 40 ~ 230Hz, 24dB/OCT

- Variable bass boost at 60Hz control: 0 - 18dB

- Protection circuit for thermal, short circuit and reverse polarity connection of battery.













































This img shows the cheap RCA female socket coming off reason it had to be opened up.


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## ATOMICTECH62

There is already a thread on this with gut shots.It is misspelled.
"Crtical Mass is a rip off"
The amps are made by the same company that makes Audiopipe,Massive,soundmagus,Mtx and looking at the pictures of the first one,now Soundstorm and Power Acoustic. 

Only the the sub seems to be specially made for them.


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## yogegoy

So I don't get a "thank you for showing" blah blah blah that comes with it?

I believe he was showing the Ver 2 of the UL A2500, this one is the first version where the name plate lights up on the edges highlighting the plate.


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## ATOMICTECH62

Thanks for showing that.


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## yogegoy

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> Thanks for showing that.


Sure


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## Victor_inox

Thanks for showing critical crap nonsense. Insane msrp reminds me white van speakers scam.


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## ATOMICTECH62

I didnt know if you where aware of the other thread.However,I do like when someone posts pic's of this stuff.I really want to see the gut shots of the ULX9V crossover.


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## yogegoy

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> I didnt know if you where aware of the other thread.However,I do like when someone posts pic's of this stuff.I really want to see the gut shots of the ULX9V crossover.


I'll see if I can get picts of that before I leave this AM. I also have the ULA-A4x350 amp if interested I can post that too. 

Yes I am aware of the other CM UL A2500 V 2.0 the guy was so upset because I think he bought it full price and couldn't return it for a refund. The one I showed is version 1.0 which claims to have 1900 wrms while the version 2.0 has 1950 wrms. This one when powered the blue accent light comes on at the edges of the name plate. The cost of the UL A2500 V1 was 91% less MSRP as my other CM gear were, I was able to buy two for my two subs.


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## yogegoy

Victor_inox said:


> Thanks for showing critical crap nonsense. Insane msrp reminds me white van speakers scam.


I don't know why they (metroholdings ebay) market it that way but as all of my CM gear I participated in their auctions so I was able to purchase the items the way it should be priced. As you can see they have a cheap push in RCA female socket that came off when I pulled the RCA for it. Unlike the other UL A350x4 has a nut to secure the socket to the face plate.


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## knever3

Wow, the board sure looks cheap. I can't imagine paying 10% of the price considering the quality of construction.


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## PsyCLown

WOW. Quite interesting seeing the price and then the quality...

Does it even allow for a bandpass? o.0


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## yogegoy

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> I didnt know if you where aware of the other thread.However,I do like when someone posts pic's of this stuff.I really want to see the gut shots of the ULX9V crossover.


I posted that this morning on a new thread. Sorry for the delay, I forgot about it.


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## yogegoy

*Critical Mass Audio UL-A4x350* MSRP $12,000

Product Information 
High pass variable crossover (15Hz-300Hz) @ 24 dB/oct, with 1X or 15X multiplier switch Low pass variable crossover (15Hz-300Hz) @ 24 dB/oct, with 1X or 15X multiplier switch. Separate Gain control for both Left and Right Channels on all 4 channels MONO/Stereo Selector switch for L+R Center Channel and or Sub Applications. BASS Boost Variable from 0 db to +12 dB Parametric BASS Boost Control with variable frequencies from 30hz-90hz. RMS power at 4
Stereo 150W × 4CH RMS power at 2
Stereo 250W × 4CH RMS power at 1
Stereo 350W × 4CH RMS power at 4
Mono 500W × 2CH RMS power at 2
Mono 700W× 2CH Damping Factor > 900 S/N Ratio > 118 dB Total harmonic distortion 0.0051%
Product Code: ULA-A4x350


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## vivmike

$12,000?! Damn....and it's called "crap". I would be sick to my stomach if I got ripped off like that.


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## Thunderplains

You can get 3 of the Brax Matrix amps which are on a whole different plane for the price of one of these. Waste. Unless the gold parts are solid gold.


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## yogegoy

I found an equivalent ebay amp of the 5 ch except it's a 4 ch. The amp housing is almost if not, the same. At least this comes with a users manual which CMA doesn't.


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## Lanson

CMA reminds me of something P.T. Barnum would have come up with.


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## sirbOOm

$15K buys me another Ford Fiesta to make into a killer SQ car using $1,200 total in amplifiers, and that's being spendy.


Sooooo.... who wants to "donate" $15K to meeeee???


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## TrickyRicky

yogegoy said:


> I found an equivalent ebay amp of the 5 ch except it's a 4 ch. The amp housing is almost if not, the same. At least this comes with a users manual which CMA doesn't.


Sad that CM even used the same end covers...look at the mounting holes exactly the same.

I bet you can remove that middle logo and fit the CM easily. 

I love that style heat sink (don't know how well it is at dissipating heat) but it looks sexy up until the point of the end covers....they could of done something better looking than that.


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## steggie

Interesting find..


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## Nocturnus

I looked this crap up on ebay. CM 6x9 pair.. $600. Has the 5 Channel up for 12k w/$20 shipping. lol.


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## DBlevel

It was still cool to see the gut pics..........


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## yogegoy

DBlevel said:


> It was still cool to see the gut pics..........


Thanks, that's basically my intention. Although I have to be honest, this amps have been keeping up with my setup and they don't disappoint a bit at all. I'd say for the negative it brings along (can't touch/afford this attitude) to give it a try or test it correctly and see what it truly put's out. I'll even loan it to anyone that has a certified amp dyno as long as it's 50mi near me.


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## Lanson

Could be worse! Could be Shockwave! Remember them??


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## Guy

Shockwave is still rockin.
AC Shockwave - Premium Car Audio


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## JAX

I have been meaning to post a thread about CM

I couldnt understand for the life of me why the asked for so much for their stuff. 

Now , I really am more astounded than ever. 

if you own one and were not given it then Id consider it wholesale rape unless it was sold to you at pyramid pricing..cause thats what I saw


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## JAX

I got your pm...Im just going to say it on here..


I dont see anything visible to my novice eyes that make it special. no wow THD or super big slew rates...no musical spectrum listed thats beyond the hearing limits of dogs...

nothing...Ive seen US Amps specs much better.


I need my tech Dave to see this post and see what his expert eyes see. I may have owned a truckload of amps but I am not an expert.

if they make you happy is what matters in the end


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## TrickyRicky

Guy said:


> Shockwave is still rockin.
> AC Shockwave - Premium Car Audio


Funny how their "support" and "about us" links don't work....


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## Lanson

Guy said:


> Shockwave is still rockin.
> AC Shockwave - Premium Car Audio


Yeah I remember them being on eBay, with ZERO feedback despite being there for years, "selling". 

Man, it HAS to be a front for something else.

Here's a person under a diff name, "selling" this stuff Shockwave 15" Component Subwoofer with 800 Watts Power Focal JL Audio | eBay

Shockwave 1000 4 Watt Hybrid Class D Mono Amplifier JL Audio Focal Waterproof | eBay

Because LOOK at that stuff. Its worth 5% of its asking price.












And I want some of you competitors to check this out, lol









Hoffman's Iron be broken I guess.


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## Ultimateherts

fourthmeal said:


> Yeah I remember them being on eBay, with ZERO feedback despite being there for years, "selling".
> 
> Man, it HAS to be a front for something else.
> 
> Here's a person under a diff name, "selling" this stuff Shockwave 15" Component Subwoofer with 800 Watts Power Focal JL Audio | eBay
> 
> Shockwave 1000 4 Watt Hybrid Class D Mono Amplifier JL Audio Focal Waterproof | eBay
> 
> Because LOOK at that stuff. Its worth 5% of its asking price.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I want some of you competitors to check this out, lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hoffman's Iron be broken I guess.


Have you personally used this gear? Just wondering because the eyes can deceive the ears!


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## yogegoy

JAX said:


> if they make you happy is what matters in the end


 That's basically the meaning of life.


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## Lanson

Ultimateherts said:


> Have you personally used this gear? Just wondering because the eyes can deceive the ears!


Of course I haven't. 

And I think other than the one single testimony they have on their dysfunctional website, I don't think they sell that much.


The _markeneering_ alone scares me away from ever dropping *$799+ *on an amp they "make".

"


*Cone Material* - Platinum Chrome-Plated Injection Molded Polypropylene Cones with Meca/Graphite Reinforcement
*Surround* - Theroplastic Elastomer (TPE) Vulcanized Rubber Surround
*Voice Coil* - High temperature adonized aluminum voice coil formers/ resin coated
*Suspension Spider* - Linear Progressive Crosswoven Conex Material Spider
*Tinsel Leads* - Rubber Coated
*Speaker Terminal* - Platinum
*Speaker Cage* - Black Gel Coated Steel
*Tweeter* - Custom MolyPolyamide Domes w/ Neodymium Magnets/ Ferri-Fluid Cooled Voice Coil
*Woofers* - Barium Ferrite Magnets
*Crossover* - Pro Audio Grade Mylar Capacitors
*Midrange/Tweeter* - Mounted on a bridge and angled for near perfect sound alignment
*Blue LED* - Laser Style Light built-in to Tweeter Bases that protects tweeter and reflects off woofer cone mirror dust cap at high volumes


Oh how I wish I had a Laser _style _light built-in to my tweeter base that protects the tweeter, and reflects off the woofer at high volumes. That's definitely worth extra. I like having adonized stuff, anodized is so last Wednesday. And Ferri-fluid is much better than ferrofluid. Just like the badass "Theroplastic" technology.




Its either a front, or brother-man can't spell.



Wait I figured it out. These are made by Ralph from the Simpsons.

Within the "front" website, at the bottom, "This is where the product documents goes."

Why yes, yes it does.


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## Guy

MugShot of Anthony C Shockwave. Frankfort, IL


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## Ultimateherts

Guy said:


> MugShot of Anthony C Shockwave. Frankfort, IL


How do we know this is the person... That could just be a stage name (Martin Sheen father. Of Emilio Estevez)


fourthmeal said:


> Of course I haven't.
> 
> And I think other than the one single testimony they have on their dysfunctional website, I don't think they sell that much.
> 
> 
> The _markeneering_ alone scares me away from ever dropping *$799+ *on an amp they "make".
> 
> "
> 
> 
> *Cone Material* - Platinum Chrome-Plated Injection Molded Polypropylene Cones with Meca/Graphite Reinforcement
> *Surround* - Theroplastic Elastomer (TPE) Vulcanized Rubber Surround
> *Voice Coil* - High temperature adonized aluminum voice coil formers/ resin coated
> *Suspension Spider* - Linear Progressive Crosswoven Conex Material Spider
> *Tinsel Leads* - Rubber Coated
> *Speaker Terminal* - Platinum
> *Speaker Cage* - Black Gel Coated Steel
> *Tweeter* - Custom MolyPolyamide Domes w/ Neodymium Magnets/ Ferri-Fluid Cooled Voice Coil
> *Woofers* - Barium Ferrite Magnets
> *Crossover* - Pro Audio Grade Mylar Capacitors
> *Midrange/Tweeter* - Mounted on a bridge and angled for near perfect sound alignment
> *Blue LED* - Laser Style Light built-in to Tweeter Bases that protects tweeter and reflects off woofer cone mirror dust cap at high volumes
> 
> 
> Oh how I wish I had a Laser _style _light built-in to my tweeter base that protects the tweeter, and reflects off the woofer at high volumes. That's definitely worth extra. I like having adonized stuff, anodized is so last Wednesday. And Ferri-fluid is much better than ferrofluid. Just like the badass "Theroplastic" technology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its either a front, or brother-man can't spell.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait I figured it out. These are made by Ralph from the Simpsons.
> 
> Within the "front" website, at the bottom, "This is where the product documents goes."
> 
> Why yes, yes it does.


Still without hearing it we should not pass judgement as I thought that is what separates us from other hate bashing car audio sites!


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## ChrisB

Didn't some of the older CM monoblocks use the same boards as the American Bass VFL line at that time? I remember congratulating someone on overpaying for an American Bass amplifier and they argued with me till no ends... Until they pulled the bottom off and even saw the VFL letters on their precious CM circuit board. 

Then there was the guy who overpaid for some re-branded LPG tweeters and stopped talking to me after he pulled the sticker off and saw the letters LPG written behind the label. 

Good times, I tell ya!


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## TrickyRicky

Ultimateherts said:


> How do we know this is the person... That could just be a stage name (Martin Sheen father. Of Emilio Estevez)
> 
> Still without hearing it we should not pass judgement as I thought that is what separates us from other hate bashing car audio sites!


Oh its him alright....but that was about 4 years ago, his a changed man unlike his website :laugh:


Guy seriously looks like a dope fin. Hope his been clean since then....cocaine is a hell of a drug, but this guy looks like his on ice or heroin.


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## Guy

TrickyRicky said:


> Guy seriously looks like a dope fin.


I think I'll change my name to Gary or something.


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## JAX

Guy said:


> I think I'll change my name to Gary or something.


lmao


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## Guy

I'm fond of my Critical Mass subwoofer...


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## ATOMICTECH62

Anytime I see the clear LED's that light up blue on these car amps they are all the same amps in different cases with different names.
Last summer I had an Audiopipe 1500 and a CM 2500.They were the same amp.I could have swapped the guts and no one would have known it.
Same goes for the Massive Nano N4 and American Bass ph4000md.

Even the end plates will match up on the ones that have the 0-6-12db bass boost switch.


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## Lanson

Ultimateherts said:


> How do we know this is the person... That could just be a stage name (Martin Sheen father. Of Emilio Estevez)
> 
> Still without hearing it we should not pass judgement as I thought that is what separates us from other hate bashing car audio sites!



Hey I'd make an offer on those eBay sales pages for like $5, but then the guy might call my bluff and sell them to me for that. I might be out $5 and stuck with ****ty speakers.


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## hurrication

Ultimateherts said:


> Have you personally used this gear? Just wondering because the eyes can deceive the ears!


The subs are run of the mill chinese buildhouse, and you can find variations of that style on alibaba.


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## Lanson

hurrication said:


> The subs are run of the mill chinese buildhouse, and you can find variations of that style on alibaba.


\

But it costs more, it must sound better, right?

Right?

'Dem trophies tho.


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## TrickyRicky

fourthmeal said:


> \
> 
> But it costs more, it must sound better, right?
> 
> Right?
> 
> 'Dem trophies tho.


Good chance is that he had to pay out of pocket to get them custom made :laugh:.


"No amplifiers, only head units amplification" LOL.


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## Ultimateherts

All I am is saying is before passing judgment we should at least try the product...


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## strakele

I saw the Shockwave Boxter at SBN. For the placements listed in that pic, at least for the SQ related classes, whatever place listed was last place in the category...


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## TrickyRicky

Ultimateherts said:


> All I am is saying is before passing judgment we should at least try the product...


You'd actually consider dropping over 900 bucks for ONE of their rebranded amps? Or other products at that.


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## hurrication

Ultimateherts said:


> All I am is saying is before passing judgment we should at least try the product...


It's like if some company were to take say a new Hyundai Accent and debadge it, stick their own badges on, and then try to sell it for $200k while boasting that it has the acceleration and handling of a Ferrari with the build quality of a Rolls Royce. 

You could look at it and think, "maybe this car that looks just like a Hyundai Accent really does have the attributes that are being boasted", but in reality there is nothing you could ever do to a Hyundai Accent to make it an exotic car since it's on such a different level. 

That's what this guy is doing - he's ordering some cheap Chinese buildhouse speakers with his name on them from alibaba and then using Critical Mass marketing to make people think they are high end. People who are familiar with the cheap Chinese buildhouse stuff know this and they know that the cheap speakers will never be on the same playing field as true high end speakers. Some people who don't know the difference might think there's a little grey area in there and they could possibly be a "diamond in the rough", but the reality is pretty much black and white.


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## Ultimateherts

hurrication said:


> It's like if some company were to take say a new Hyundai Accent and debadge it, stick their own badges on, and then try to sell it for $200k while boasting that it has the acceleration and handling of a Ferrari with the build quality of a Rolls Royce.
> 
> You could look at it and think, "maybe this car that looks just like a Hyundai Accent really does have the attributes that are being boasted", but in reality there is nothing you could ever do to a Hyundai Accent to make it an exotic car since it's on such a different level.
> 
> That's what this guy is doing - he's ordering some cheap Chinese buildhouse speakers with his name on them from alibaba and then using Critical Mass marketing to make people think they are high end. People who are familiar with the cheap Chinese buildhouse stuff know this and they know that the cheap speakers will never be on the same playing field as true high end speakers. Some people who don't know the difference might think there's a little grey area in there and they could possibly be a "diamond in the rough", but the reality is pretty much black and white.


They're customers (Critical Mass) seem pretty happy don't they? Also to me there is no black and white in reality as there are always people who find new ways to interpret things. In the end isn't that what innovation is all about? Look at the top Critical Mass subwoofer and tell me where there is a clone of it? While the amps could be or are clones the top subwoofer is not a clone of any kind! This thread was about Critical Mass I thought was it not?


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## hurrication

My post was in reference to the AC Shockwave brand.

The Critical Mass equipment isn't bad quality at all. They don't sell junk, but they market it to try and get people to pay exorbitant amounts for it. I would happily run Critical Mass equipment if I had the chance to purchase it for a good price *for what it really is*.

In regards to AC Shockwave, it doesn't bother me one bit if you assume there was actually R&D and innovation behind their products and try to "interpret" them like they aren't just rebadged buildhouse models.


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## Ultimateherts

hurrication said:


> In regards to AC Shockwave, it doesn't bother me one bit if you assume there was actually R&D and innovation behind their products and try to "interpret" them like they aren't just rebadged buildhouse models.


How could you prove they didn't do R&D? Again you can copy and paste or assume all you want, but until we have either:

A) Tried the product

B) Paid to have the claims deemed real

I don't see how this thread can continue. An example being thousands of years ago when everyone said the earth was flat. Did we have any concrete evidence for this ridiculous claim? Absolutely not, but because everyone said it therefore it was true! Or how about the example of swimming right after eating causes stomach aches. The truth is that the water doesn't cause your stomach to ache it's the actual physical activity of moving in the water that causes the stomach aches.


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## Lanson

Ultimateherts said:


> How could you prove they didn't do R&D? Again you can copy and paste or assume all you want, but until we have either:
> 
> A) Tried the product
> 
> B) Paid to have the claims deemed real
> 
> I don't see how this thread can continue. An example being thousands of years ago when everyone said the earth was flat. Did we have any concrete evidence for this ridiculous claim? Absolutely not, but because everyone said it therefore it was true! Or how about the example of swimming right after eating causes stomach aches. The truth is that the water doesn't cause your stomach to ache it's the actual physical activity of moving in the water that causes the stomach aches.



With all respect possible:

I don't have to pick up **** in my hand and then taste it to know I don't want it. The smell and the look tell me all I need to know.

Buy it, report back, and serve the community.


I can tell you I purchased a bunch of potentially sweet buys throughout the years, just to report back how good or bad they are, for the good of the community and use them if any good.. And I'm a drop in the bucket compared with others on here.

Example of some buys I've made just to see what happens: VR3 ribbon tweeters from Walmart, Vibe 3D components, GT Mat Quadro, Phoenix Gold wiring kit, and Mark Antony amps. So maybe this is your turn?


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## hurrication

Ultimateherts said:


> How could you prove they didn't do R&D?


Because you can get on alibaba and find multiple iterations of the same speakers and subs. 

The only R&D done with rebadged buildhouse models is "send me a sample of each of your lines and I'll select which ones I would like to order in quantity with my logo on them". 

What would you think if you saw a company that ordered a batch of the alibaba DSP's you made a group buy post about with the only difference being their logo on it and they were priced at $900 a piece?


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## Ultimateherts

hurrication said:


> Because you can get on alibaba and find multiple iterations of the same speakers and subs.
> 
> The only R&D done with rebadged buildhouse models is "send me a sample of each of your lines and I'll select which ones I would like to order in quantity with my logo on them".
> 
> What would you think if you saw a company that ordered a batch of the alibaba DSP's you made a group buy post about with the only difference being their logo on it and they were priced at $900 a piece?


Do you have documentation to prove this? I am just saying I can make all the claims I want, but what you referenced to is not definitive proof. These are again just your opinions. I am only trying to be fair for all parties.


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## Victor_inox

Ultimateherts said:


> Do you have documentation to prove this? I am just saying I can make all the claims I want, but what you referenced to is not definitive proof. These are again just your opinions. I am only trying to be fair for all parties.


I agree, whoever thinks that these guys will send you samples for free, keep dreaming.
You gonna spend a fortune just to sample their products and 99% will be complete crap. THey also wouldn`t be interested in making small run of your design, they might but that gonna be another fortune. 
Long story short- it`s not as easy as it seems.
I have spoken with a lot of Chinese manufactures at last CES.
Say they will make you awesome subs for100 a piece (because $20 a piece possible if you order in tens of thousands), than you have to import it, pay all the fees, marketing expenses, shipping, etc. It will end up as funking audio on sale at $20 a pop. Or you can buy no name DSP, pay a fortune to make it works, create software, market it whole 9 yards, sell it for profit, get one ****ty review from an ass who has no clue how things works and spend all your revenue on refunds. 
Nice picture isn`t it?


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## Guy

If you are drawing a picture now - correct.
The business climate wasn't the same a few years ago. 

Times have changed, making it much more difficult to start up a Shockwave circa 2014.


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## hurrication

Ultimateherts said:


> Do you have documentation to prove this? I am just saying I can make all the claims I want, but what you referenced to is not definitive proof. These are again just your opinions. I am only trying to be fair for all parties.


I have documentation in the form of samples ranging from subwoofer soft parts to component sets that I myself have ordered from buildhouses and every single one of them follows the same format for open tooled in house models - purchase a sample, review it and tell us what changes you want, purchase a revised sample, etc until the final goal is reached and then you order in quantity. 

To be fair to both sides, you need to have knowledge of how both sides operate. I don't think you know how the rebadged chinese buildhouse side works.


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## hurrication

Victor_inox said:


> I agree, whoever thinks that these guys will send you samples for free, keep dreaming.
> You gonna spend a fortune just to sample their products and 99% will be complete crap. THey also wouldn`t be interested in making small run of your design, they might but that gonna be another fortune.
> Long story short- it`s not as easy as it seems.
> I have spoken with a lot of Chinese manufactures at last CES.
> Say they will make you awesome subs for100 a piece (because $20 a piece possible if you order in tens of thousands), than you have to import it, pay all the fees, marketing expenses, shipping, etc. It will end up as funking audio on sale at $20 a pop. Or you can buy no name DSP, pay a fortune to make it works, create software, market it whole 9 yards, sell it for profit, get one ****ty review from an ass who has no clue how things works and spend all your revenue on refunds.
> Nice picture isn`t it?


It's a lot different when you approach a buildhouse about building *your* design from scratch as opposed to buying tweaked in-house lines. A lot of buildhouses tool up and create their own lines to advertise and customers just base their products off of the buildhouse lines. Purchasing samples doesn't cost very much, shipping is usually more than the cost of the sample itself. You can get crap products from low tier buildhouses, but you won't spend a fortune buying samples from a high end buildhouse. I had quite a few buildhouses that I've bought samples from show interest in doing small runs. This has been within the last year and a half.


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## cajunner

think of it this way:

white van speakers have been around for a long time.

take that business plan and adapt it for the internet market.

for every guy that has been to a super-sale at a convention center, back in the day, that actually got 3-8 year old "bnib" items that didn't sell well or came from some manufacturing supply inventory clearinghouse, and knew what they were buying, there was about 10 suckers that bought the white van versions, the "20 dollar subs! 30 dollar decks! 25 dollar amplifiers!" price leaders on the radio spots.

so, this is just a variation on a theme.

some people will buy what a salesman tells them, some people will believe the marketing shlock, some people will search for the item that works for the lowest price denominator.

then you have the people who frequent forums, educate themselves, and leave the white van versions alone.

it doesn't really pay to get mad at companies that flood the marketplace with cookie cutter designs, does it?


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## Victor_inox

hurrication said:


> It's a lot different when you approach a buildhouse about building *your* design from scratch as opposed to buying tweaked in-house lines. A lot of buildhouses tool up and create their own lines to advertise and customers just base their products off of the buildhouse lines. Purchasing samples doesn't cost very much, shipping is usually more than the cost of the sample itself. You can get crap products from low tier buildhouses, but you won't spend a fortune buying samples from a high end buildhouse. I had quite a few buildhouses that I've bought samples from show interest in doing small runs. This has been within the last year and a half.


Define high end builhouse please?


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## Ultimateherts

Victor_inox said:


> Define high end builhouse please?


Must be the ones with the Diamond Beryllium tweeters!


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## Victor_inox

Ultimateherts said:


> Must be the ones with the Diamond Beryllium tweeters!


Diamond beryllium? That is something new in Chemistry.

I`m not electronics snob but there is no such thing as Chinese High End build house. Even one that build Crapple products use cheapest possible materials. Lowest possible grade aluminum, THinnest copper traces on PCB, etc. If they can save 2 pennies on 500 dollars product they will.
They not even good at counterfeit product because there is always some imperfections giving away fake only because they can correct it next year and sell again.


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## hurrication

Victor_inox said:


> Define high end builhouse please?


One with good engineers that design good products and use a high standard for assembly?  Like the guy on here who's doing the group buy with the xbl tweeters and 8" woofers, or the buildhouse that Hybrid, Sundown, Obsidian, Stereo Integrity, etc use..

I think most people seem to have this notion that EVERY buildhouse in China is this dirt floor building that pays homeless people 5 cents a day to work and cuts corners everywhere possible. That's not the case. China didn't become the world leader in manufacturing by doing low quality work. You're naive if you don't think there can be high end buildhouses.


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## cajunner

high end buildhouse, to me....


is a place where you can spec a product and tolerance, and won't have them substitute lesser quality materials when you're not sitting on the place with QC inspections every day.

I think a lot of people are duped into believing China can't source high-grade materials, but the reality is EVERYTHING is made in China today.


If you want a product to be made with T6061 Aluminum, but don't watch closely you might pay for the 6061 and somebody gets an envelope, and you are delivered a pallet of lesser grade aluminum in your finished product.


if you can watch out for slipped envelopes, you can get premium grade stuff out of China.

And look, we grow chickens, freeze them and send them to China to process them, and get them back re-packaged for sale here.


if that's cost effective, so is sending some unique materials from here, to be put together over there too.

you might not get the same low price as when China is selling you their low-tolerance spec'ed, basic grade materials, but you'll still save on the labor even if you have to source the materials elsewhere.


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## Victor_inox

hurrication said:


> One with good engineers that design good products and use a high standard for assembly?  Like the guy on here who's doing the group buy with the xbl tweeters and 8" woofers, or the buildhouse that Hybrid, Sundown, Obsidian, Stereo Integrity, etc use..
> 
> I think most people seem to have this notion that EVERY buildhouse in China is this dirt floor building that pays homeless people 5 cents a day to work and cuts corners everywhere possible. That's not the case. China didn't become the world leader in manufacturing by doing low quality work. You're naive if you don't think there can be high end buildhouses.


 
HE is using best possible engineering with best possible manufacturing using best possible material, non of the above could be qualified as such.
Is Rolex watch High End? You would be surprised but it`s not. We can of course broaden definition and call Sundown or Mr Kravchenko product High End but I`d disagree with that. 

In car audio world only few manufacturers can be considered as such and non of them makes **** in China. I agree with Caj, unless you can control every step of the process they will substitute with cheaper solution all the time.


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## Ultimateherts

cajunner said:


> And look, we grow chickens, freeze them and send them to China to process them, and get them back re-packaged for sale here.


Food is a bad example because you cannot get poisoned from car audio. Also he never stated where the product was from. Who's to say Alibaba is not ripping off his design?


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## file audio

So whats going on with critical mass? Good bad overpriced underRated " they act and look like scammers but whats the real deal here? There are normal person who has test their amps? Cause some guy is selling me a 5 channel v2 for a fraction of the price!!


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## ChrisB

I remember one of their old amplifiers had the same circuit board as the American Bass VFL series at that time. The Critical Mass circuit board even had VFL stamped on it!

Now their subs had some proprietary technology that no one else used. IIRC their business model was to sell few items at a huge markup but provide awesome customer support. In a perfect world, that makes sense but for a hobbyist as myself, customer support is overrated. Either your product works or it doesn't. The CPA in me can't justify the extra cost for customer support on a commodity product.


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## jpeezy

ChrisB said:


> I remember one of their old amplifiers had the same circuit board as the American Bass VFL series at that time. The Critical Mass circuit board even had VFL stamped on it!
> 
> Now their subs had some proprietary technology that no one else used. IIRC their business model was to sell few items at a huge markup but provide awesome customer support. In a perfect world, that makes sense but for a hobbyist as myself, customer support is overrated. Either your product works or it doesn't. The CPA in me can't justify the extra cost for customer support on a commodity product.


thats because wayde was involved with the subs, even though it wasn't his company anymore, i got a chance to work with him a little bit on a project that he was consulting on for us, design and fabrication of specialty emergency lighting.smart guy, scientifically based results.


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## jasonwilliam

That's cool! Thanks for sharing.


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