# Help picking H/O Alternator please



## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

So i think i'm going to buy one of these mofo's and get it over with. I really didnt want to, but i really dont know exactly when i'll be getting rid of my car, so i need to do something to help the situation.

I have my JL 450/4v2 and 1000/1v2, and my electrical system just cant handle it.

big 3 done yada yada. I have the factory battery in its factory spot, which is under the back seat. its a pretty huge batter, and really difficult to find.

I found these 2 alternators: 

Mechman ( i heard him talked about here on diyma ) MechMan.com - 250 Amp Alternator (20221161-00)


Power Bastards - RIVIERA 1996 - 1998 3.8L V6 (231c.i.) w/Supercharger, High Output Alternators | PowerBastards.com


The PB alt is much cheaper, and tbh that the one i'm leaning towards unless its a total piece of crap.


My question is, what do i need to know here? should i call them for specs or something? are they both pretty much the same? 

and most importantly, will either of them handle my 2 JL's?

thanksssssssssssss!


the car is a 1997 buick riviera 3.8l supercharged btw


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

Anyone? power Bastards any good? 240 amp alt good enough?


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## passtim (Sep 30, 2009)

Is your stock alt the small 100 amp model? 250 amp alt may be about 100 amps more than you need, I thinken.


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

My stock alternator is 140 amps. But its about 9 years old, so who knows how much power its putting out i guess.

So if you think the 240 is too much power, it should be just enough?? 


All i know is that if i set the gain on my 1000/1 to where its supposed to be, my 450 goes into low voltage mode lol. 

****ing sounds amazing though.

If i can get away with buying the power bastards one, that would be sweet. i just dont want it to end up being a piece of ****, you know?


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## passtim (Sep 30, 2009)

It might be cheaper to get your old alt load tested, to see what the hot rating is, and possibly just get it rebuilt to put out more. If its a 140 amp model, the case should take a decent upgrade.


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

****, i dont mind spending $289 at all. i almost spent that much on a Kinetik battery!

This would be awesome if i could pop the ***** in, and be worry free!


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## passtim (Sep 30, 2009)

Looked at their site, they have some decent prices for NEW alts
Didn't look at their warrenties thou.

Edit, 1 year new replacement, not bad at all for that price!


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

yeah? So you think its a good deal then? 

I know i've seen mechman talked about a couple times. I've never heard anyone mention Power Bastards though. They're the first one that comes up when you google search though.

is there any noise or anything associated with these HO alts? I've never had any alternator whine, and i'd hate to have it now lol.

One thing that pissed me off about mechman is that i emailed them to make sure i was looking at the right alternator 2 weeks ago, and they never responded.

Thanks for the help! I really appreciate all your input!!


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## passtim (Sep 30, 2009)

Never heard of PB, mechmans been around for a while, havnt heard much bad about them. The PB has a decent warrenty, and the price of a new alt would be prob $150-200 for just a replacement. I've paid over $150 just for a rebuild upgrade, so the price for the PB isn't bad.


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## tintbox (Oct 25, 2008)

aphexacid said:


> My stock alternator is 140 amps. But its about 9 years old, so who knows how much power its putting out i guess.
> 
> So if you think the 240 is too much power, it should be just enough??
> 
> ...


Same problem here. I have upgraded everything possible but the alternator. I also curious to know about the Powerbastards alternator as well. I never had a problem with taxing my electrical until I put the 450/4 in. Love the amps and they love power.


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

tintbox said:


> Same problem here. I have upgraded everything possible but the alternator. I also curious to know about the Powerbastards alternator as well. I never had a problem with taxing my electrical until I put the 450/4 in. Love the amps and they love power.


I was ok with a 900 watt hifonics for my sub, and the 450/4. No problems.

but once i put in the 1000/1v2, all hell broke loose lol.

Power Bastards i ended up finding out are very popular in the hot rod community. Pretty well respected. 

They dont really go past 240 amps, like Iraggi (300+ amps). But i dont need or want something that powerful.

I ordered last night. cant wait!


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## jbowers (May 3, 2009)

aphexacid said:


> I was ok with a 900 watt hifonics for my sub, and the 450/4. No problems.
> 
> but once i put in the 1000/1v2, all hell broke loose lol.
> 
> ...


I'm in for the review!


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## JDMRB1ODY (Oct 11, 2008)

Subscribed! Looking for a good 200+ amp ALT for my setup.


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## tintbox (Oct 25, 2008)

Right on. Please let us know how the powerbastards alternator worked out.


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## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

tintbox said:


> Right on. Please let us know how the powerbastards alternator worked out.


i have just what you need for your ride[according to the p-basturds site]

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/83818-f-s-220-amp-universal-alternator.html

shameless plug


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## Danometal (Nov 16, 2009)

I'm thinking about going with an Excessive Amperage alt.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

High Output Alternator, 200-250-300-350 Amp Alternators, high output alternators, Delco Remy,Ford Truck Alternators

Call him. Brand new AC Delco alternators. Great guy. We bought an AD244 with external rectifier for the uber cool dual rectifier set ups for my sons 02 park avenue. Bench tested @180 amps at idyll.


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## bnr32jason (Jun 26, 2010)

passtim said:


> Never heard of PB, mechmans been around for a while, havnt heard much bad about them. The PB has a decent warrenty, and the price of a new alt would be prob $150-200 for just a replacement. I've paid over $150 just for a rebuild upgrade, so the price for the PB isn't bad.


Where did you have your alternator rebuilt?

I'm running into the problem that I have a Japanese market car, Nissan Skyline, and stock alternator is 100amps. One major performance company here sells a 140amp for $1000, which is ridiculous. Where did you have your alternator rebuilt/upgraded? Do they accept mail order jobs?

Thanks!


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## passtim (Sep 30, 2009)

Sorry, unfortunately it was a local shop that did my last one. No mail order. The good thing you may be able to cross referance your car with another nissan, say a sentra and order a new one for around 3 bills.


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

Hang on 1 more week guys, i'll have it installed asap, and report back. been really busy


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## tintbox (Oct 25, 2008)

Right let us know.


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## Austin (Mar 12, 2009)

subscribed for the review.


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

I took the alt to get installed yesterday. 

Major disaster. It was only putting out 12v apparently. I had them put in the old alt, and it was back to 14.6 again. 

Called up power bastards, and they want me to take it to get bench tested at autozone. 

at this point, i seriously just want to return it. I spent so much money on the install since my car is such a pain in the ass. 

new alternator, new belts, installation for alternator, installation for belts.

PLUS, reinstall of old alt and belts. WTF!

I'll keep you guys updated, but i am NOT a happy camper.


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## passtim (Sep 30, 2009)

Sounds like a internal voltage regulator issue.


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

You think so?

Would auto zones machine be able to figure that out? What exactly does the machine check for? anyone know? voltage? amps?

pain in the ass man. I wish it would have been tested BEFORE it got shipped to me.


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## Danometal (Nov 16, 2009)

I'm keeping an eye on this too, as I'm considering an Excessive Amperage 200 amp alt. I know it's not the same as Power Bastards, but I've heard of people having issues with many companies...


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## passtim (Sep 30, 2009)

Possibly, some are equiped to test instore. Most load test them installed in your vehical, if I remember correctly. I havn't had to deal with alternator issues for a few years so memories kinda sketchy. Just give one a call. Also, if your voltage sensing wire wasn't connected, the new alt may not have been putting out more than 12ish volts


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

passtim said:


> Possibly, some are equiped to test instore. Most load test them installed in your vehical, if I remember correctly. I havn't had to deal with alternator issues for a few years so memories kinda sketchy. Just give one a call. Also, if your voltage sensing wire wasn't connected, the new alt may not have been putting out more than 12ish volts



Which wired is this voltage sensing wire? All there is, is the main cable and the harness. Is that wire apart of the harness?


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## passtim (Sep 30, 2009)

sorry, flashbacks to older models, I believe the newer models use the CPU to sence when to engage.


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## tintbox (Oct 25, 2008)

I've been following this and sorry to hear about your issues. I to had one Jl audio 1000/1, 300/4 and a 450/4 in my Scion xB. After reading your post I changed out my 450/4 for a 300/2. I lost rear fill but no more 450/4 shut downs at all. Thank you again and keep us posted.


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

It seems all is not lost...yet. 

I took it to a few parts stores today, like they asked i do. It failed the tests at each one. So, its a defective unit. Just my luck. 

Aggravating it wasnt tested before it left the facility. Lets see how this company handles crisis management. 

If i have to pay return shipping, i'm gonna go apeshit.

Stay tuned.


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## Austin (Mar 12, 2009)

aphexacid said:


> It seems all is not lost...yet.
> 
> I took it to a few parts stores today, like they asked i do. It failed the tests at each one. So, its a defective unit. Just my luck.
> 
> ...


I don't understand how they let completely bad units get through. It's like they put them together then package and ship out without testing. 

Yeah be sure they pay the return shipping.


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

I'm finally getting my new alternator back from PB on tuesday. It seriously better work properly or its gonna be ON. If you ask ME, what should have happened here was:

"I'm so sorry sir. Let me send you another alternator right away. When you receive it, put the broken one in the box and we'll have it picked up. I'm sorry for all the inconvenience"

Maybe i expect too much, i dunno. Would have been GREAT if the mofo got tested before it left their facility. But whatever.

I'll keep this updated.


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## Audio_Images (Jun 21, 2010)

If you need an alt I can get a NEW 200A for under $200.00 for most any vehicle with full warranty. I buy from a supplier in California.


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## sniper5431 (Dec 8, 2009)

Just ordered a 200a from EA. Will let you know how it turns out. Wish I would have known about the < 200 deal. Oh well


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## Audio_Images (Jun 21, 2010)

No prob let me know how it works out


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

Alternator came today. Looks like they fixed the old one as opposed to sending me a new one. 

I took it to get tested first, which i wish i would have done last time....Would have saved lots o' cash. 

Looks like this one is solid. They were out of paper, so they couldnt give me a print out, but it passed everything. Unfortunately unless you print out a sheet, it only says the 3 major things that pass. It doesnt give you what kind of voltage its creating. But its at least 14.4.

In taking it to get tested however, i couldnt make it to the shop. So that will have to be Wednesday.

Hang tight boys, looks like we'll be finally able to get down and dirty very shortly here!


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## tintbox (Oct 25, 2008)

Keep us posted.


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

I have a Fluke from my teleco days, any way i can test amperage of this thing after its installed?

Also, im going to toss a JL 500/1 as a 3rd amp just for testing along with my 1000/1v2 and 450/4v2. Just to see how much juice i can suckle.

Anyone have anything they'd like me to do to test it? Go ahead and ask any questions.

PB is obviously uncharted territory among diyma, so i'd like to help out. I have to say im disappointed in the situation so far, but if the alternator does a good job, thats what counts.


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## NRA4ever (Jul 19, 2010)

I used RJM Injector Tech for my alt. Good prices & mine worked first time. I have the 160 amp model for a Ford Ranger.


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

So i got the alternator installed. The installer tested the voltage at like 14.8v. It runs nice and quiet, and smooth.

Only Thing is, my lights still dim. Well, i shouldnt say dim. They sort of flicker.

The moment i drove away, i could feel that the car felt different. My windows roll down faster, i swear my wipers are going faster.

And my sub sounds like it did a line of coke before it began playing. It now needs to be retuned. I'm obviously not going to bother since i can put my JL 1000/1v2 back in there now. I have a hifonics amp right now, obviously unregulated, and definitely enjoying more power.

One problem is, with the a/c on, when the fans kick in, the rpm dips a bit and you can sort of feel it. Never noticed this before. anyone know whats up with this?

I used the old belt. The guy told me that the belt looked ok. PB said they recommend a new, "next size down" shorter belt. I wonder if i should do this?


Also, whats up with the lights still flickering? I still have an old 1.5 farad cap in there. and i havent upraded the power cable from the batter yet. Its about 3 feet of monster 4ga going to a distribution block, and then 8ga to the amps (from my older more modest setup, i've been lazy). The batter is under the back seat, so thats why i figured i never needed anything better than 4ga.

Any ideas about the flickering? The car does feel like like it used to with the system cranked. before it used to FEEL like it was getting raped. Now, it feels fine and strong, but the lights flicker a bit. I'm guessing it will get worse with the JL 1000.

Any ideas would be great. How can i test the amperage the alt is putting out?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

I don't understand why you'd have to retune your sub. The gain of the amplifier didn't change.

Lights flickering is an odd problem, but you may be on to something by wanting to measure the current that the alternator can put out. Maybe it's not quite up to snuff, especially at certain RPMs. Current is a funny thing. When you draw too much current, the voltage at the output terminals of the alternator will decrease. So, if you want to say, "my alternator puts out 100A", what that really means is how much current will it put out while maintaining X% of the voltage output. My guess is that the voltage gained from the new alternator is far more impactful than the current gained (ie. the voltage stability in the face of current draw).

Anyway, the wire going from the battery to the amps probably won't help much with dimming (depends on the amps...upgrading the wiring could help a little, but it could also make it WORSE). I'd begin by cleaning all your connections upstream of the battery and possibly upgrading chassis grounds, etc. The reason I say I'd begin with this is because this is usually a good idea to do periodically anyway.

If you want to address the dimming directly, install the capacitor closer to the headlights. For example, my car also has its battery in the trunk. If I add a capacitor to reduce dimming, it would be to the junction box under the hood. Presently, your "smoothing" devices (battery, capacitors) are down the other side of a long wire that may or may not have questionable connections, and your alternator is upstream of that. The voltage at the terminals of the alternator will fluctuate more than the voltage at the terminals of the battery in the trunk. So put your capacitor under the hood. Just choose a safe place. Be mindful of temperatures.


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

I say retune because all of the sudden, the subwoofer has much more kick than it did even right before the alt was installed. im guessing because with more power now, the hifonics is putting out more juice? Doesnt matter though, i'm taking it out, and putting my JL 1000 back in.

I was actually going to remove the capacitor....I didnt think i would be needing it anymore? I could have swore someone at some point told me i should remove it when i get a high output alt.

You think i should get a shorter belt in there? 

Big 3 done, battery in factory location under back seat. 3 feet of 4 gauge going to 8 ga to both amps, and 1.5 farad cap. cap is about 7 years old.


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## frmdrkside (Jul 13, 2008)

MarkZ said:


> I don't understand why you'd have to retune your sub. The gain of the amplifier didn't change.


I didn't read the entire thread, just skimmed it. But if the amplifier has an unregulated power supply, it could produce more power with the increased voltage (14.8 vs say 13.5) at the same gain setting. That increase could require some readjustment to blend the sub level to the rest of the system. Depends on the system and the systems gain structure.


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

frmdrkside said:


> I didn't read the entire thread, just skimmed it. But if the amplifier has an unregulated power supply, it could produce more power with the increased voltage (14.8 vs say 13.5) at the same gain setting. That increase could require some readjustment to blend the sub level to the rest of the system. Depends on the system and the systems gain structure.



Yep, thats exactly what i was thinking. The sub would need to get "blended" all over again if i were keeping the unregulated hifonics in there. 

The only reason i even have the hifonics in there right now is because the JL 1000 was destroying my electrical system.


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

I just spoke with PB. He told me that it definitely has an overdrive pulley on there. i could have SWORE he said it didnt. Originally i put a shorter belt on anyway, but this time i didnt because i figured i might as well just save some cash and return the belts.

The pulley always looked smaller to me. So now i have to go rebuy the belt again, and get it installed.

Dang it.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Flickering or even dimming does not mean that your electrical system is faulty. A sudden draw of current say from your sub amp can cause a slight voltage sag until the alt is told by the voltage reg to catch back up. Now with your new H.O. alt putting out 14.8 volts and say it sags to 14 volts when your sub hits a bass note, you will see some flicker or dimming.

We put my son's AD244 alt in and noticed the JBL14001 was providing way more power, or rather bass notes hit and the volume sustained through the life of the note rather than a reduction in volume as the note was played. he is excited about getting the other amp in!

Good luck! Hope you get all the bugs out!


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

frmdrkside said:


> I didn't read the entire thread, just skimmed it. But if the amplifier has an unregulated power supply, it could produce more power with the increased voltage (14.8 vs say 13.5) at the same gain setting. That increase could require some readjustment to blend the sub level to the rest of the system. Depends on the system and the systems gain structure.


Nope. The gains are independent of the power supply. It will only produce more power if he's clipping. At normal listening volumes, a 10w amp will be just as loud as a 10000000w amp if the gain circuit is the same.

It's not like your music gets quieter when you turn your AC and headlights on and the voltage drops.


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

Ok, heres my current dilemma. I need a shorter belt. It even feels too loose. 

I think thats why its not doing what it should be at idle.

i just cant figure out how short of a belt to get. I have an engine mount that goes through the belts, so this is not something i can do myself. So i'd like to really figure this out before i buy the belt and take it for installation.

The pull looks to be about half an inch shorter than the stock pulley. 

Should i get a half inch shorter belt? Or a full 1 inch shorter? Is 1 inch too tight? will it screw up stuff?

I really need help with this one fellas, thanks!


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## alachua (Jun 30, 2008)

Is there a tensioner in the belt loop? If so, you should be able to get away with a belt that is a bit bigger than necessary. Also, if you measure the radius of the pulley on the old alternator and on the new one, you should have a pretty good idea of how much smaller the overall path is.


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## Austin (Mar 12, 2009)

If you are getting it done professionally why don't you just have them get the right belt? or first of all have them look at it and make sure you can't just tighten it up some.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> Nope. The gains are independent of the power supply. It will only produce more power if he's clipping. At normal listening volumes, a 10w amp will be just as loud as a 10000000w amp if the gain circuit is the same.
> 
> It's not like your music gets quieter when you turn your AC and headlights on and the voltage drops.


Maybe i am off base here, but if you set the gain on a non regulated amp and provide 12-14-16 volts utilizing the same volume setting, you will have more power to the speaker at each voltage spot simply because you have a more powerful amp now. So if he had an alt that was putting out less than new alt then without changing gain structure the potential for "more output" at the same volume setting makes sense to me.


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

Yes theres a tensioner. And yes, i'm getting it done professionally. But, they dont seem very interested in giving me help with this. Most likely because its "custom" and they dont want to be responsible.

I only use gatorback belts. I already asked them, and they cant get them. So i need to track them down and buy, then take it to them for installation. Thats another pain in the ass. I cant just do trial and error. Its very expensive. The only place around with gatorbacks still is a little **** hole parts store thats far as hell.

the pulley on the HO alt is about half an inch smaller. But does that equate to a a half inch shorter belt, or should it be more?


Another thing i found out is, not only do i get a quick rpm drop when the a/c and fans turn on, i get fluctuating rpm when i have the music cranked and theres lots of bass.

You can see the rpm going up and down, and hear the engine speed as well.

WTF is up with that??


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

cubdenno said:


> Maybe i am off base here, but if you set the gain on a non regulated amp and provide 12-14-16 volts utilizing the same volume setting, you will have more power to the speaker at each voltage spot simply because you have a more powerful amp now. So if he had an alt that was putting out less than new alt then without changing gain structure the potential for "more output" at the same volume setting makes sense to me.


Nope. Like I said, the gain of the amplifier doesn't change. The circuit from input to output has a constant gain regardless of system voltage. The maximum power of the amplifier may change ... but that only tells you when the amp will clip. It doesn't tell you about the magnitude of the signal.

So, for example, suppose your amp put out 50w at 12v and 70w at 14.4v. _Assuming you're not clipping_, the signal will be IDENTICAL whether the car is on or off. The difference is that with the car off it will clip sooner than with the car on.

Anyway, the point is that changing your system voltage shouldn't require you to re-tune the system. The amount that the amplifier amplifies is going to be the same whether it's 12v, 14v, or 16v. The difference you'll hear (if any) comes from the behavior at clipping.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

MarkZ, When I get home today, I am going to check this out. While I understand what you are saying, I am trying to wrap my head around it a little more. So i will check the output of the amp at battery voltage and alternator voltage for a specific volume level. For whatever reason, I am curious about this. Thanks for the insight into this.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Sure. It would SUCK if the output depended on the battery voltage. When you think that the system voltage fluctuates between 13 and 14v all the time, and usually goes up when the RPMs go up, it would mean that the volume of the music would change when we stepped on the gas.  It would also mean that we couldn't use unregulated amps with regulated amps, because the two would change their relative output at different system voltages.

Fortunately, this isn't the case.

The gain of an amplifier is controlled by two things. 1) the gain stage, which is a voltage divider network usually feeding an op amp. This cuts the voltage of the input signal (by the amount dialed in with the knob) and then usually amplifies it before sending it to the input stage of the amplifier. And 2) the feedback resistors. Most amplifiers use what's called negative feedback. This is where the output of the amplifier is fed BACK to the input stage, which then compares output and input. Feedback usually is drawn directly from the output, cut down with a voltage divider, and then delivered to the input stage. The values of the resistors in the voltage divider determine the actual gain of an amplifier (the "gain stage" isn't really part of the amplifier...it's an input circuit). Sort of amazing to think that the gain of the whole thing is controlled by two small low current resistors.


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## Ziggy (Nov 29, 2007)

aphexacid said:


> Ok, heres my current dilemma. I need a shorter belt. It even feels too loose.
> 
> I think thats why its not doing what it should be at idle.
> 
> ...


I just got a 200a alt from DB Electrical, with an overdrive pulley, and my belt tensioner took up the slack just fine... 
Chevy 2500hd, though.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> Sure. It would SUCK if the output depended on the battery voltage. When you think that the system voltage fluctuates between 13 and 14v all the time, and usually goes up when the RPMs go up, it would mean that the volume of the music would change when we stepped on the gas.  It would also mean that we couldn't use unregulated amps with regulated amps, because the two would change their relative output at different system voltages.
> 
> Fortunately, this isn't the case.
> 
> The gain of an amplifier is controlled by two things. 1) the gain stage, which is a voltage divider network usually feeding an op amp. This cuts the voltage of the input signal (by the amount dialed in with the knob) and then usually amplifies it before sending it to the input stage of the amplifier. And 2) the feedback resistors. Most amplifiers use what's called negative feedback. This is where the output of the amplifier is fed BACK to the input stage, which then compares output and input. Feedback usually is drawn directly from the output, cut down with a voltage divider, and then delivered to the input stage. The values of the resistors in the voltage divider determine the actual gain of an amplifier (the "gain stage" isn't really part of the amplifier...it's an input circuit). Sort of amazing to think that the gain of the whole thing is controlled by two small low current resistors.


HA! Well gee. when you put it like that... I get what you are saying now. Brain must be slow today.


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