# Haakons VW Lupo 3L tdi 2000-mod



## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Hello!

Just bought this car from a friend last Sunday, and have spent the last week not using much diesel 

The car is a 2000 3L basic-spec with no added frills, so no power-steering, no AC, manual windows etc. This car was sold new in Germany, then imported to Sweden in 01, and finally imported to Norway last year. Got a call from my friend on last thursday (I had already made it clear that he needed to call me first if he ever wanted to sell it), and he was keen to sell it quickly, so I just went for it. There is just a handful of these imported privately here in Norway, and I have never seen one for sale, so it was kinda now or never 

A few pics taken Sunday when I got it home:




























I guess it wont be long until I start making a stereo setup, just placed a couple of components in the back to get a picture of the space available:

Soundstream DaVinci amp and Soundstream SPL160 15" subwoofer


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

It's........cute? lol


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Getting a nice selections of components to choose from now, awaiting delivery of a pair of Focal Utopia 27wx subwoofers, then I have to choose between them, a SS SPL160 or a pair of DD1508s I have.

Amps in picture are: Tru C-7.2AT, Tru C7.2T, SS Davinci, PG MPS-2500, audison vrx 1.500 and Hertz EP1D. Focal TLR tweeters, audiom 6W midranges and Tang Band 5" neo subwoofers (for midbass/front subbass)


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## Mtgrooves (Dec 14, 2009)

Sick!


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## douggiestyle (Apr 29, 2008)

loving the SS!


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

This build is sadly coming off to a slow start as I broke my arm some weeks ago, and still have it in a cast, but at least I got my 27wx utopia subs  Waiting for a very special Sony amp for midbasses, and a good amount of sound deadening and cables to arrive. 

Also getting a Pioneer DEX-P99RS as headunit, should be very nice


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Yeah.. should have gotten a larger car


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## jonnyanalog (Nov 14, 2007)

hope theft isn't that bad in your country! Thats a killer setup you have there.


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## JediMentality (May 7, 2008)

if I had a Vdub, I'd love to have that steering wheel. Keep it coming.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

1 layer of damplifier pro in roof.. makes a difference to say the least


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Got my new headunit today, guess I don't have to explain anything more about this than posting a few pics 



















Ran rca cables for the headunit last week, all four of them fit in the original cable guides in the car, not bad 










Some Kimber Kable 4PR for mids and tweeters, since the amps for the speakers are wired with the same brand cable internally. Thought I might as well carry on all the way to the speakers  










Tru Copper internals:


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## tinctorus (Oct 5, 2009)

Man you need to hurry up with this build cause I wanna see it done already!!!!

You have assloads of killer equipment man, One of the guys at work has 2 of every model of those old sony amps and I keep trying to convince him to sell me some but he refuses to part with them


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

tinctorus said:


> Man you need to hurry up with this build* cause I wanna see it done already!!!!*



You and me both! haha  

Starting to get all the components together now, so things will be running along more smoothly the coming weeks, and my arm is getting better finally, broke it a couple of months ago. Wiring is about done, sounddampening is done, and the interior is going back in soon. Then its just the rest left! haha.. Should have it done by June hopefully


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## Black05Hemi (May 10, 2010)

Looks sweet...


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Just had to hook up the head unit indoors to check it out


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

nice work here and nice gear. Lots for a simple little car!


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Some pics of the rest of the wiring, done now 


























Just have to decide what's going in the car now


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## MTopper (Nov 4, 2009)

I wish i had the problem of deciding between all that equipment. Thats a great looking collection you have there, this is a fun looking install.... Does your equipment cost as much as your car?


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

More like 5 cars  Just one of the Tru Techs retails for more than I paid for the car, hehe..


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## GENEXXA (Aug 30, 2010)

Any progress here Haakon?


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## seabreeze (Sep 1, 2010)

sydmonster said:


> nice work here and nice gear. Lots for a simple little car!


Just what I was thinking....

Why is such a simple vechile, somewhat of a prize to have in Norway?

I dont get it.

Excellent eqipment ! ! !

Seen a old mini cooper show car down here, when he raised the hood a large flat TV screen was attached.Hood opened toward front of car It was great for watching movies from inside his tiny cooper. Think home movie theather.

Owner said he watched movies all the time inside his garage in his mini. By the way it sounded awesome. All Jl coponents and amps.

Your vechile seems to be about same size, opps,,, did I give you some ideas...


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Well, petrol cost about $8/gallon over here. A new ford Fiesta starts at just under $30.000, a Toyota Rav4 limited with a 2.2 diesel engine costs $80.000, or something new and fast like this Camaro 2SS Chevrolet Camaro 2SS 2010, 5000 km., kr. 1.582.248, - - cost just under $265.000 in Norway. More than $167.000 of this is in taxes. Just to give a few pointers. Cars and gas are amongst the things that are most heavily taxed in Norway, so having a small car that does about 80mpg on diesel (less expensive than petrol) and is by norwegian standards cheap to buy and run makes good sense over here  

Some facts about the car itself:



> The Lupo 3L was a special-edition made with the intent of being the world's first car in series production consuming as little as 3 litres of fuel per 100 kilometres (78 miles per US gallon or 94 miles per Imperial gallon). To achieve this the 3L was significantly changed from the standard Lupo to include:
> 
> * 1.2 litre 3-cylinder diesel engine with turbocharger and direct injection (61 hp, 140 Nm)
> * Use of light-weight aluminum and magnesium alloys for doors, bonnet, rear-hatch, seat frames, engine block, wheels, suspension system etc. to achieve a weight of only 830 kg (1,830 lb)
> ...


Hell, even a Chrysler Town&Country (or Grand Voyager as its named here) with a 2.8 diesel engine (only option in Norway) cost $140.000!

Makes more sense with a small and frugal car now?  More money for nice stereo gear then


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## seabreeze (Sep 1, 2010)

haakono said:


> Well, petrol cost about $8/gallon over here. A new ford Fiesta starts at just under $30.000, a Toyota Rav4 limited with a 2.2 diesel engine costs $80.000, or something new and fast like this Camaro 2SS Chevrolet Camaro 2SS 2010, 5000 km., kr. 1.582.248, - - cost just under $265.000 in Norway. More than $167.000 of this is in taxes. Just to give a few pointers. Cars and gas are amongst the things that are most heavily taxed in Norway, so having a small car that does about 80mpg on diesel (less expensive than petrol) and is by norwegian standards cheap to buy and run makes good sense over here
> 
> Some facts about the car itself:
> 
> ...


WOW, not cheap to own a car there, Iam with u all the way with your thinking...

Sounds like you got yourself a performance car that gives you excellent gas mileage...

Good luck with your build...


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Thanks  I really only need 2 seats, so there's plenty of space for the system (well, kinda ) and you sit far back from the dash/windshield, so this helps equal pathlengths from the speakers. Think of the car as a CRX sized cabin (length/width) with twice the volume because of the steep windows and large headroom. 

Iæm about midway on the box for the subwoofers, going to use 4 Focal Utopia 27WX 11" subs. The box is mainly 3/4" MDF with fiberglass front and most of rear sections when finished. Some pics of the progress so far:


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Changed the stock seats for some nice oldschool Recaros as you can see


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## GENEXXA (Aug 30, 2010)

This is why we dont buy fast cars in Norway









But Haakon, I cant wait to see the finished result on the enclousure! 
I hope, that one day I can hear this car.


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## seabreeze (Sep 1, 2010)

Like the way you are going to roll Haakons....Only the best..

Any plans for chip,suspension, wheels and tires, xhaust. What about power windows and door locks.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Keeping the engine stock, this thing has done 250.000 miles 

Suspension: check! FK Coilovers with Bilstein dampers is in place:









Wheels/tires: Got some OEM Porsche 928S wheels in chrome, fitted with Dunlop SP9000 tires in 195/40-16.









But since these wheels are 5-stud (5x130mm) and the car is 4-stud (4x100) I have these adapters, also made by FK like the coilovers. The Porsche wheels are ET65 and the adapters are 30mm, so the actual offset is 35mm, exactly the same as the stock VW wheels.









So the look is transformed from this:









to this


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## Big_Valven (Aug 20, 2008)

Wow! Those wheels and the lowering really transforms the car!


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

YUp!!!! Lorv that Euro look!

Me like it! just like this...


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## Bugs78 (May 14, 2010)

*love* the car. 

Small diesel cars for the win! Only thing I would change would be to have a manual transmission, but otherwise, badass little car.


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## MTopper (Nov 4, 2009)

i really like the build. i wish i could do that to a car. i just need my back seat too much to dedicate it to subs


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Found some great inspiration yesterday, the purple is a bit much, but the flat grey paint, painted dash and polished hood and steering wheel is made of pure win! 

The hood is made of aluminium and the steering wheel is magnesium, so paint stripper and probably hundreds of hours of polishing, they will look like this 

And the painted dash is definately happening on my car, since it will be rebuilt anyway to accomodate the Audiom 6W mids in the dash.


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

That is a SICK little car! What kind of wheels are on the polished hood car?
They look kinda like OZ rally wheels?


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## oh_lol (Sep 6, 2010)

haakono said:


> Well, petrol cost about $8/gallon over here. A new ford Fiesta starts at just under $30.000, a Toyota Rav4 limited with a 2.2 diesel engine costs $80.000, or something new and fast like this Camaro 2SS Chevrolet Camaro 2SS 2010, 5000 km., kr. 1.582.248, - - cost just under $265.000 in Norway. More than $167.000 of this is in taxes. Just to give a few pointers. Cars and gas are amongst the things that are most heavily taxed in Norway, so having a small car that does about 80mpg on diesel (less expensive than petrol) and is by norwegian standards cheap to buy and run makes good sense over here
> 
> Some facts about the car itself:
> 
> ...



Ohhhhh. Here I was thinking "What!? A 3L engine in that tiny car!?"


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

A small update as I haven't done much at all with the car lately, spent all my time setting up a graphics/signmaking business. But got to work a bit on the subs today.

I have 4 Focal 27WX subs, got them all used in two pairs from different sellers. The first two were in excellent shape, could really not tell that they had ever been mounted apart from seeing pics of it in the sales ad. Not even a fingerprint on the chrome when I unpacked them. 

The other two however, basically looked like s*** when I got them in the mail, no wonder the pics in the sales ad were so tiny and unfocused. Here is how I restored them (tried to at least): VW Lupo TDI SQ build log - Talk Audio

Anyway, the Focal logos on the dustcap had almost gone, no text left:









So I decided to make new ones, but some custom ones to suit my project car, a VW Lupo. And off course a Lupo with Utopia makes Lupotopia  Put the VW logo in the background as well, and made the files ready for vinyl cutting in Adobe illustrator CS5:









Made a testcut in single colour, just to size it up, best to get a feel for this IRL, not just on the computer screen, weeding the vinyl went easy:









Size looked ok on the actual speaker:









Next step was to cut the pieces in the actual colours to be used, went with silver, red and white. Added crop marks to line up the pieces, and cut 6 of each in case I mess up some.









A dome is basically the worst shape you can apply a flat piece of vinyl to, but it went pretty well. Had to adjust the outer rings a bit, took this pic before I did just that:









Could have aligned it a bit better also, so I'll peel this one off and put on another tomorrow I think. Not a problem with a two week old Roland signmaker in the room 









No problem changing these back again to stock ones if I ever decide to part with them, but well happy with the result for now.

Thanks for looking


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## MTopper (Nov 4, 2009)

the custom logo looks great!


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Thanks, well pleased with the results


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

helll yeah!!!!!! customise those caps!


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Got to do some more work on the steel frame yesterday, now it is starting to take shape in the back of the car. It is just tack welded at the moment, the welder wanted to see where all the equipment was going before cutting the rest of the parts and TIG-welding the whole frame. No cutting or welding to the car itself, the frame is made to use existing fastening point in the car, being bolted to these.










The frame is made of 15x15mm square tubes, drilled through them and welded a M10 bolt to the frame. Using these to bolt the frame to the rear fastening points. Left side:









Right side:









We used the brackets for the back seat for the middle section of the frame:

















And four mounting point in the front, where the rear seat is hinged originally. 4 M6 bolts to secure the frame in the front:









The box for the subs has to be shortened a bit in the back, now its too close to the seats:









But the box is still a work in progress, made the footprint as big as possible at first, since its much easier to cut away then to add to it later


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## odj23 (Jul 13, 2010)

Looks great!

I really dig the metal frame. That's an awesome idea.


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## HiFonics addict (Nov 28, 2010)

Any update to this build ??


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Just a quick update on the project, been some small changes in setup.

The Focal speakers will not be used in this car, I've given up trying to get hold of a set of used 7w2 midbass drivers to complete the Utopia setup. Maybe someday a set will appear for sale, but until then I'm using the focals indoors.

The new setup will be a little simpler, with 3" fullrange drivers on the dash, dual 6,5" midbass drivers in the doors and a single 10" subwoofer.

Using TangBand W3-1878, Digital Designs DDW6.5 and DD9510 drivers.

It will be a great deal easier to mount the fullrange drivers without compromise on a small dash compared to the huge Focal combo for the same freq range:









The new speaker setup:









Toying around with placement of the fullrange driver:









Also got some fiberglass door panels made for dual 6.5" drivers:


















Have to transfer all the mounting clips from the stock doorcard:


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

I remember when these came out, and I always wanted one, so when a nice and complete one came up for sale at a fair price, I had to bring it home 










I have to choose between this one and the Tru Copper tube amps for running fullrange and midbass drivers, for now I'm kinda interested in hearing how the Outlaw performs compared to the tube amps. I'm kinda not looking forward to putting the tube amps in a car with rock hard suspension like this one, especially with the bad road conditions over here. I feel that the Outlaw and Sony amps are less fussy and prone to malfunction than the delicate tube amps?

Either way, I can't even fit all of them to my car, combined they take up all of the trunk and rear seat area, not even room for a sub


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## yogegoy (Feb 11, 2011)

Immobilizer won't be enough, you need a big dog and a Desert Eagle. That's mandatory here in the US.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

WOW!

Thos TB's a little gems... and some serious lush amplification/heaters there.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

I had some free moments during easter to do some work on the car. The fiberglass doorpanels I got from germany did not fit well at all, so alot of cutting, sanding and filler action the last days.

Finished terminating/soldering the rca cables at the front end at least, will have to wait until all the amps are fitted to know where to cut the cables at the other end, they will be made to size. No coils of rca cables bunched up because they are too long. 

So this was step one: 








The company I ordered the RCA plugs from managed to send one red to few, and one black to many.. So I put it on this end instead of in the back.)

Almost all wires in VAG cars are wrapped in this feltcovered tape like on the antenna cable shown here:









So I got hold of a OEM roll of tape, and used it on the connectors to isolate them (and stop them clanking about)









Finished up and connected to the P99RS pre-out wiring loom it looks like this:









Will work some more on the finish on the doorpanels during the week, they will be painted glossy silver metallic just like the car when they are done.


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

I am really wanting to see what you think of those TANG BANDS...


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

So now I have a set date I have to be finished by, June 2, big car meet then. So no time to sit about and think, time to get to work!

I want the 3" fullrange drivers close to where the stock tweeters are/were located in the dash, close to the corners. So I found my Bosch "dashboard muncher" and got to work:










does this;










They fit pretty well:









considering their mounting depth/magnet assembly:









Other side:









Next step here is to make the cutouts a little neater, and make a small sealed box underneath. Will probably make this from small pieces of damplifier pro formed together to make a small compartment. Will then make speaker baffles and grilles in the style of the stock tweeter grill, only larger.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

Awesome! What a great tool!


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

im really diggin the mids in the dash. what kind of speakers are those? i dont think i have ever seen them before!

mad props to you my friend 

VEEDUB!


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Thanks  They are TangBand W3-1878, 3" fullrange drivers. Some people are using these as the only driver in small floorstanding speakers, like this (pic found on diyaudio.com) 









With a 8mm xmax they can actually have some decent output, at least down to the lower midbass region. I plan on crossing them over at about 200hz and letting them play all freqs over that, skipping all problems with a regular tweeter/midrange setup with crossover and phase issues in the middle of the critical upper midrange frequency band.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

This is how the speakers will be angled:









Took a few pics while making the base for the speaker mounts:

Step one; ducttaping where the base is going to sit








Step two: masking everywhere you are going to make a mess and spill resin: (done this before  )









Cut some fiberglass fabric to form the base:









Coating it with polyester resin and waiting for it to harden: 









This morning it was ready to be cut approx to size:


















Making the other one this afternoon


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## nautic70 (Oct 20, 2010)

This thing is gonna be so sick when it's done. There is so much potential in this car and with this install. And by the way I, as I know many others are am incredible jealous of your equiptment collection. I would burn mine to have half of yours.


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## malutki (Apr 28, 2011)

great instaltion in this small Lupo  do you get enough currecny from this small engine?


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

so whats the deal with the of axis install? why did you end up chosing 90 degrees versus less? 

im only asking purely to see what your reasons are, i understand that things can be better in each particular vehicle. but what were your reasons for that paticular choice?

should be real cool though!


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

nautic70 said:


> This thing is gonna be so sick when it's done. There is so much potential in this car and with this install. And by the way I, as I know many others are am incredible jealous of your equiptment collection. I would burn mine to have half of yours.


Wow, thanks!  I've finally collected most of the components I desired the most when they were new, and I could not afford them. All the amps have had one or more previous owners, but it looks like they have taken great care of them. Well the Tru amps were basically new, the all tube had just been tested by a norwegian car audio magazine, and the hybrid tube amp was brand new in box. Hopefully the installation will do the components justice, and if they sound half as good as they can it will still be the best setup I've ever had 



malutki said:


> great instaltion in this small Lupo  do you get enough currecny from this small engine?


The Lupo 3L is a special little car, it is actually fitted with a 120A alternator as standard, because of the start/stop system on it. Basically everytime you stop at a red light or similar for more than 4 seconds, the car stops - and start again when you take your foot off the brake pedal. So both the starter and the alternator are heavy duty items. Even better, the 180A alternator from a VW Touran TDI is a straight swap for the stock one, so its a very easy upgrade if needed. 



req said:


> so whats the deal with the of axis install? why did you end up chosing 90 degrees versus less?
> 
> im only asking purely to see what your reasons are, i understand that things can be better in each particular vehicle. but what were your reasons for that paticular choice?
> 
> should be real cool though!


They will be angled straight up towards the windscreen, to control the reflections from the windscreen. This technique was learnt to me by the man I bought these drivers from, who incidentally is the 2009 European Champion in Advanced Unlimited in EMMA, mr Joakim Skovlund. His car is on this forum: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...e34-touring-mosconi-odr-norwegian-sq-car.html

When you do it this way, its important to measure the actual distance the sound travels when setting the time alignment, not just measure the actual distance from the drivers to the ears. You have to measure the distance from the drivers, via the windshield, to your ears. And they probably will have to be tweaked a fair bit by eq, but with the built-in 1/3 octave eq in the Pioneer DEX-P99RS head unit that won't be a problem.

Also, I've gotten a few pointers on what does and does not work in these cars (VW Lupo/Seat Arosa - same car) from a friend that used to compete with such a car. He had the Focal TLR tweeters that I also have, but are not going to use in this stage of the build, and they sounded the best by far when mounted horizontally on the a pillar, playing straight up. Looked really weird, but had an amazing width and accuracy to the sound stage. So hopefully mounting the fullrange drivers similarily, only 2 inches lower and an inch further in front will be a good starting point.


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## Magosi sefolo (Feb 17, 2011)

Wow, super work so far-interesting theory on the mid/tweeter placement.
Love your collection of amps, what model is that Sony? Specs?


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

The Sony amp is called XM2000R, they only made a few hundred of these back in 1999. It weighs almost 30kg, and is specced to RMS [email protected], or 2000W [email protected] Rated very conservatively. Dynamic power [email protected]

Looks like this on the inside:


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## Magosi sefolo (Feb 17, 2011)

Hmmm....delicious!!


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## malutki (Apr 28, 2011)

haakono said:


> The Lupo 3L is a special little car, it is actually fitted with a 120A alternator as standard, because of the start/stop system on it. Basically everytime you stop at a red light or similar for more than 4 seconds, the car stops - and start again when you take your foot off the brake pedal. So both the starter and the alternator are heavy duty items. Even better, the 180A alternator from a VW Touran TDI is a straight swap for the stock one, so its a very easy upgrade if needed.


Thanks for your explaning 

The XM2000 is a great amp, i would like to hear it someday


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Almost finished with the left side speaker mount now, here are some new pics:

Superglue and pieces of cardboard are key components for angling speakers 









Filled out with fiberglass putty for strength:









Some more fiberglass outty:









Testfitting of fullrange speaker:









Angling pretty much straight up at windshield.









After a good few rounds with body filler and sanding, trying out some high rise spray filler here. Starting to take shape:


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)




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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

haakono said:


>


Yep, that deserves a re-post! Wicked and clean! I like it.


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## malutki (Apr 28, 2011)

[offtopic] i want to ask why these Tang Band? they have lot of wideband speakers. I'm thinking also to use 3" wideband as a "tweeter" but i'm not sure if this the right choice [/offtopic]


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

looks sweet man. just wish i could be there to listen to it. thank you for posting your work log on the forums!


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Thanks, I will post updates as things progress. But back to the choice of drivers and placement, here are some pics to help illustrate the reasons for this: 

If you see the reflection from the windscreen in this pic taken from the driver seat in eye/ear height, you see almost dead on the driver, and this should mean that the sound is reflected just about straight to your ears. Since sound is more and more directional the further up the frequency range you get, this should mean that the highest frequencies still will retain its energy when they reach your ears. And possibly this placement will bring up the soundstage further, since the point of reflection is a good 4-5" up from the bottom of the windscreen:









Also, here is the frequency response curve of the fullrange driver measured on axis, it is remarkably smooth for a fullrange driver:









The driver itself has a bamboo cone for lightness and stiffness, the moving mass of the driver (cone, surround, voice coil, former) is only 2.0 grams combined. I've used these drivers as pc speakers in small boxes run of a T-amp for a couple of months now to run them in, and they sound so sweet and airy 

Will have to experiment with cutoff frequencies when I get them in the car, I'm going to use Digital Designs DDW6.5 midbass drivers in the doors. And a single DD 9510 10" subwoofer. Really exited to try out this sub. Right now it is an a ported 1.5^ft test box in a friends audi A3 to break it properly in. Takes a looooong time with DD subs... Powered by a tiny little audison srx1 monoblock, pushing out just 300w @2ohm (sub is a dual 1 wired in series), and the impact and clarity is astounding! Wonder what will happen when powered by the iron grip of the Sony amp, and with about 10x the power in reserve


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Speaker adapters/spacers V2.0:










Triple layers of 19mm mdf, bonded together and sealed with three thick layers of VPA, this time they shall not swell up like the first ones that were sealed with a layer of polyester. Somehow water got into them and they swelled bigtime :mellow: 

They are bonded to the doors with Sicaflex for a perfect seal. And seeing how much work it was getting the old ones off, I think they will hold up just fine being bonded only to the door metal. 


















Pretty much finished up with both the dash speaker mounts, they are NOT going to remain blue, it was just the only glossy paint I had left in my spraycans. It easier to see the curves/where they need to be sanded into shape when glossy.. Will wrap them in carbonfiber vinyl to match the dashboard details.

Cute little fullrange speaker?


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## MTopper (Nov 4, 2009)

looks really good man. keep it up. love the look of those full ranges


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## sinister-kustoms (Jul 22, 2009)

MTopper said:


> love the look of those full ranges


What he said. I've heard really good things about them, would love to try them out one day. Keep up the good work!


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

For the price they sound amazing, and they sound pretty good regardless of price in the right setting 

Tang Band W3-1878 3" Full Range Driver


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

Nice work! The phase plug treatment is what has me the most curious about these little drivers. Personally would prefer a higher QTS and lower Fs, but hey... you can't have everything.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

A small 3 incher has no business playing midbass/bass in a car anyway, so if they only manage to play down to 200hz that would be plenty low enough  Hopefully the Tru Tech tube amp with 15W output will be enough to power these to sensible output levels cause the sound it makes is just wonderful  If not I'll use the Phoenix Gold Outlaw 1845 to power the fullrange and midbass drivers.


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## malutki (Apr 28, 2011)

sorry that I ask but is something happening with the little wolf? ;-)


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## humandrummachine (May 17, 2010)

nice amps


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

malutki said:


> sorry that I ask but is something happening with the little wolf? ;-)


Yes indeed  But I've been real busy at work these days (I have my own car graphics/sign business), so things have been a bit slow with the car. 

Got another bulk pack of Damplifier yesterday (already have 2 bulk packs in the car), so I got to finish the doors. Now they look like this:



















And I removed my first attempt at the carbon vinyl and did it again. ;Moved the part I had to stretch away from the side you look at when sitting in the seats, so now it has gone from this:









to this:









and the passenger side looks like this finished:









Yes the car needs a serious interior detailing job when its done


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Welded in some extra supports to the amprack:









And bolted the amp for frontstage speakers to the rack:









Looks like this, just for testing and setting up the levels/eq/ta etc.. But at least it is secured properly even if the mounting is temporary


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

And we have sound! 

Finally hooked up all components to get some life to the front stage, installed the PG Outlaw to power the fullrange and midbass speakers. M50 section on FR, M100 on midbass.

To say it quite simply, I'm amazed how well the inexpensive TangBand fullrange drivers sound! Did a quick auto-eq from the P99RS, they have a warm and detailed sound, and imaging is just excellent! Adjusted the time alignment by measuring the actual distance the sound travels since they are aimed at the windscreen. So using a tape measure, I measured the distance from the ears to approx where the sound reflects off the windscreen, and added the distance from this point to the actual speaker.

Imaging is pinpoint accurate, using just one driver to cover the range from 160hz and all the way up has its benefits  Never tried this before myself, so that was a revelation. Having to skip trying to match different drivers and mounting positions in the critical midrange section has its benefits it seems .

Tried at first a crossover point at 300hz between the fullrange and midbass drivers, but the Digital Design midbasses quickly sound a bit muddled the higher up to try to cross them over. Lowered the crossover point to 160hz with 24db oct slopes and it sounded way better. The small 3" TB drivers has no problems playing down to these levels at all


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

That's what I found with my TB Bamboos. Just about everything stays on top of the dash (with little to know tuning.) About the only time I hear something low is if it is in the low frequency range with no accompanying highs.

I believe I'm crossed over around 250-300. The Dayton MB's come in below that and have also impressed me.

Jay


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## MTopper (Nov 4, 2009)

that is really good news to hear about the tang bands. really want to try them later on and after seeing the two of your builds makes me want to more. install looks great haakon


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

lorv that OUTLAW!


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## malutki (Apr 28, 2011)

hello, something hapens?


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

I have installed the Sony amp properly now, had to flip it so the terminals faced the other amps in order to keep power cable lengths down. Looks tidier this way also, and luckily no noise picked up through rca cables even if they are close to power cables:










And pay attention to this kids, amps are bolted down to the steel frame that is fastened to the car itself. 15x15mm steel frame, with M5 bolts going right trough, fastened with nylock locking nuts. This will _not_ come flying through the cabin in case of an accident:



















And yeah, my Utopia W series collection is finally complete! For system V2.0 in the car  Audiom TLR tweeters, audiom 6W mids and 7w2 midbass drivers.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Tomorrow I'm building a box for one of my two Soundstream SPL160 subs. One of them has never been powered up, 1995 time machine


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## Kellyo77 (Dec 5, 2009)

Wow. So sick. Your equipment list is nothing short of amazing! 

Well done so far Sir!

Question, Did you remove the TB's because you found the Utopia's or because you were unhappy with the TB's?


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

Wow awesome build. I was coming into this thread thinking.. damn a 3.0L diesel engine in a small car? Holy ****! :lol:


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

Wow those Sony amps are pure monsters! Awesome.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Kellyo77 said:


> Wow. So sick. Your equipment list is nothing short of amazing!
> 
> Well done so far Sir!
> 
> Question, Did you remove the TB's because you found the Utopia's or because you were unhappy with the TB's?


I have not removed the TB drivers, I have actually had most of this Utopia gear for years, but I wanted a complete set before I started thinking of installing it. And after over 2 years of searching, losing auctions and just missing classified ads, I got hold of a set of 7w2 midbass drivers. I actually had to buy a complete 180W 2-way set with tweeters and crossovers, but that was fine by me 

I will start with exchanging the DD midbass drivers with the Utopias, and see how they work inbetween the SPL160 sub and Tangbands. Should be good


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

BowDown said:


> Wow awesome build. I was coming into this thread thinking.. damn a 3.0L diesel engine in a small car? Holy ****! :lol:


Thanks  But the 3L in the name refers to that the car will do 100km on 3 litres of fuel, or about 80MPG in your way of measuring fuel economy 

Sadly it is not a 3 litre engine, its just a 1,2 turbodiesel


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

haakono said:


> Thanks  But the 3L in the name refers to that the car will do 100km on 3 litres of fuel, or about 80MPG in your way of measuring fuel economy
> 
> Sadly it is not a 3 litre engine, its just a 1,2 turbodiesel


Still pretty cool. Diesel's haven't quite gotten the due they should here. 

I think swapping those DD midbasses out is a great move. I've heard a couple sets and they really don't do much well. 

Have you created any kind of cover for the amps? I should prbly go back to page 3.. I kinda skipped over that.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

The mounting of the amps is not final, they will be built in a closed rack with fans later on. Just built a box for a Soundstream SPL160 now, was a tight fit because the shop I ordered the box parts from managed to cut the top and bottom plates almost an inch too short. Did not find this out until I was home in the garage.. But I adjusted the sides to make them fit the smaller top and bottom, and got the box together.

So I knocked together the box, used PU expanding glue for the first time, and that took its sweet time to harden! Had to wait overnight for it to really set and harden properly. 

So today I removed the excess glue on the outside, routered a hole for the subwooder with my jasper jig (well most of it, not enough depth on the router). So I cut through with a jigsaw. And carpeted it. Even though its just a test box for some weeks with this sub, I really can't stand having unfinished boxes in my car, haha 










Since the shop managed to cut the top and bottom plates wrong, I JUST managed to fit the sub, it could literally not have been a few mm smaller for it not to fit at all:









Sub hangs out about a mm or two on each side, but its passable:









Sub tethered in place to amp rack on both sides:









I wired the coils in series for a 8ohm load to the bridged Sony amp, it should push out somewhere between 500-1000w at this load, with a really high damping factor compared to running it at 2ohms mono (which it is plenty capable of). Now I just have to break in the SPL160, not something usually done with 16 year old woofers  At least its hooked up to a decent amp for the first time its powered up?


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

hell yeah!!! straped!


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Got this fine bit of equipment in the mail last week 




























And I sold a couple of amps that I have in my small collection, great as they are, I need money more than them at the moment, looking to buy a brand new car at the end of the year..

And now I'm well over $3000 closer to that goal  And a couple of Tru Tech's "poorer".

Made some custom crates to ship them in:


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Single 1995 Soundstream SPL160 sub in a 2ft^ sealed box:










Plenty of headroom for "normal" listening levels


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

AGAIN, nice work! I had a trio of SPL 10's "back in the day" in my CRX. It would crank out a 143db in a very small box. I wish I still had them, to me they were the perfect driver, great SPL, really good SQ, and the cost wasn't all that much. Should you decide to sell one let me know, the same goes for those TangBands. I've been seriously considering buying some. Lastly, in your small collection, you wouldn't happen to have any OZ Audio speakers would you? or know of anyone that does?

Have a good weekend,
Scott


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

I did recently put out a post to ask about what people would rate todays value of what I have if I was to concider selling any of it, here is the list:

*Soundstream Davinci amp (8/10, in box with all accesories)

Tru Copper C-7.2AT class A full tube amp (10/10, never installed in car, only powered up indoors) with wooden crate

Tru Copper C-7.2T Hybrid tube amp (2x150W) 10/10, never installed in car, only tested indoors) in original box

Soundstream SPL160 subwoofers (x2) both from 95, one used (for about two years) one only used in a demo rack for 3 weeks in 95, packed away since.

Focal Utopia 27WX subwoofers (x4) all working perfectly, two is 10/10 for looks, two is 8/10.

Focal Audiom TLR tweeters

Focal Audiom 6W midranges (never powered up)*

I sold the Tru amps for about $3.000, and I have decided that I'm keeping the rest. Since Norway is one of the most expensive countries in the world, all of this has cost alot more than it would in other countries, so selling it would just be a big loss of money. For example, the SPL160 I bought last year (the one in my car now) cost me over $500 including shipping from another country, after all taxes were paid. And shipping prices from Norway is just as expensive, it would cost well over $350 just in freight overseas.. Just sent the Tru amps to Germany, over $200 just for them..

Tangband were cheap to buy from Partsexpress.com, but they have tripled the price of almost all Tangbands in the last months! They used to cost $70 each, I believe they charge almost $200 each now? 

Next plans is to fit the Focal Utopia 7" midbass drivers in the doors, replacing the Digital Designs ones that I use now, and to change the sub for a brand new FI neodymium 18" sub that is on its way from the factory in these days.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

New subwoofer box in the making, out with the 15, in with a 18


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

New sub arrived yesterday.. FI BTL N2 18" fully loaded


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

woah... very cool. That motor/magnet structure on the sub is also interesting.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Custom cnc-cut and laserengraved acrylic (10mm) back wall for enclosure, sidelit with LEDs:


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Back wall will be a curved piece of 10mm acrylic, so marking up the curve to cut with a jigsaw:









Made templates in adobe illustrator, and cut them in vinyl, ready to be placed on top and bottom of box:









Spraypainted over the vinyl and removed it, making a permanent line to cut by:









Painted the inside of the box in metallic silver, like the car. And added some custom FI graphics in vinyl on the bottom 








Ports not cut to size yet, so don't worry about that









Dropped in the N2 to see how it looked, it actually looks tiny in this box 



















[/quote]


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Top view (looks like mickey mouse)









Ports cut to size for a 32hz tuning (or 21hz if I block one of them  )




































When lit:


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

So the Tang Band W3-1878 are working out fine for you? To me they just did not have enough top end sparkle. I have been playing around with the TB Ceramic tweets with them. Not bad, but I think I will try the small 3/4" Vifa NE or Scan Illum tweet next. 

Any great install, would love to hear more feedback.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

I like them, but they do not have much energy at the far top of the frequency spectrum. Depends vastly on placement though, I ran them in indoors for a number of months before I installed them in the car. Had them straight on axis then with plenty of output in the top. A bit less in the car, but the windshield reflects the onaxis output almost directly at the ear/eye level (see pic on previous pages), and they have more energy on top now than other placements I tried out, like aiming them at a point in the roof. 

They sound pretty laidback in my car, never harsh or stressful, I really like the sound. Maybe I'll experiment with using my TLRs as a tweeter/supertweeter on top later on to see if it does any good to the overall sound. Also have some Peerless 1" ringradiators that can boost the upper frequencies a bit. We'll see in winter  First to go is the DD midbass drivers, not sure if I should use my Utopia 7w2s or go for dual TB 6W-1139, I have doorpanels to accomodate dual 6,5" drivers ready here.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

A few pics, trying it with a single baffle for now, but will maybe add a second one while I'm building panels to extend out to the sides of the trunk and to the side windows. Should look okay when finished


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## bkjay (Jul 7, 2009)

Looks great man! How does the sub sound?


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

When matched to the level of the components, the sound quality is actually really good! Off course the sub has so much more to give than the front speakers, so it needs to be turned down a great deal, but levelmatched and crossed over at 50hz/24db oct filter setting, it blends well with the midbass drivers. My previous sub in this car was a 90s Soundstream SPL160, which actually was one of the best SQ subs from that time, and is still highly regarded as a SQ sub, even though it was never marketed as one. Maybe that had a somewhat flatter response curve, this sub/box combo is pretty bottomheavy, but it still sounds great! Not at all boomy, very precise and effortless bass.

But when the level is turned up so the amps for both components and sub run out of steam at roughly the same time, all hell breaks loose! Its the first time I've seen wheels/tires on a car actually flex/vibrate from the system? The car is pretty well dampened, with 2-4 layers of Damplifier in about all of the car, including roof, so not much rattles, but doors, windshield, rear hatch and bumper -they all flex a substantial amount, and this is with about 1kw or so, the amp will put out about 3,2kw rms @0,5ohm..

No audible port noise from the seat, and the ports are pretty close and nothing in between them and the listening position. No real port noise when standing right over them from the back either, will see how it goes with more power? Looking good so far at least.


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## bkjay (Jul 7, 2009)

Nice! that is one mean sub set up. Im also a soundstream fan. Keep the pics coming.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

haakono said:


> A few pics, trying it with a single baffle for now, but will maybe add a second one while I'm building panels to extend out to the sides of the trunk and to the side windows. Should look okay when finished


How close are your ports to the bottom of your enclosure? Rule of thumb is to have @ least the diameter of the port as space available between the port and the enclosure... 
You might have it tuned lower than you had planned. Which would explain the bottom heavy substage 

Kelvin


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

I think the fact that this is a 7 cubic foot box with a 18" driver compared to a 1,5 cubic foot box with a 15", explains more why this box has more extension downward 

But the ports are just about the same distance from the bottom as the diameter of the main tube (not end of flares), about 6 inches. This should result in a 34-35hz tuning frequency, I was advised to play around with the relation to the back wall to lower tuning, like placing them 3" from, to extend the effective length of the ports for a lower tuning (was aiming for 30-32hz originally). I really like the effortless bass from a large lowtuned box with a driver with plenty of displacement, so that it can move a large amount of air gently rather than a small amount of air violently to produce the sound, like a small driver has to. 

When the sub has loosened up a bit more after running it in for a while, I'll play around with the 1/3octave eq in my HU to smooth out the response.


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## Kellyo77 (Dec 5, 2009)

haakono said:


> I really like the effortless bass from a large lowtuned box with a driver with plenty of displacement, so that it can move a large amount of air gently rather than a small amount of air violently to produce the sound, like a small driver has to.
> 
> .


That is the best description, of why to use a larger sub bass driver, I've ever read.
I've really enjoyed this build thread. Thanks for sharing!


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## GavGT (Sep 5, 2011)

Loving this build! I also follow it on another forum which i pm'd you on once 

I may have missed it but are you still powering the sub with the Sony? If so where the hell you gonna put it? lol.

Are th Fi graphics in the enclosure in dayglo colours? If so have you tried shining a blacklight on it? Would look excellent imo.

Gav


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

I got myself a SPL Dynamics ICE-3500D to power the sub, the Sony did not like the little preview of winter weather that was here a little earlier  So I found out that it should be spared for freezing temperatures and moisture that always comes in fall/winter. 

Not dayglo/fluorescent vinyl, but when lit with white LEDs, its pretty bright! I have some pretty hefty LEDs from iceled.co.uk here, so they will light the inside of the box, and a small ledstrip on top of the plexi to light up the logo.


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## GavGT (Sep 5, 2011)

haakono said:


> I got myself a SPL Dynamics ICE-3500D to power the sub, the Sony did not like the little preview of winter weather that was here a little earlier  So I found out that it should be spared for freezing temperatures and moisture that always comes in fall/winter.
> 
> Not dayglo/fluorescent vinyl, but when lit with white LEDs, its pretty bright! I have some pretty hefty LEDs from iceled.co.uk here, so they will light the inside of the box, and a small ledstrip on top of the plexi to light up the logo.


I might have to check out that site when i do my lighting. I'm hoping to do nice smart amp boxes for my genesis profiles, and i want the lighting to be quite subtle, so i'm thinking of building surrounds to cover the cabling and 'frame' the amps, covered in white suede or white carbon look vinyl, and then using a blacklight to make the surrounds 'glow'. Opinions?

Gav


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Christmas came early this year


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

A few weeks ago I finally ordered some equipment I have wanted ever since I began with car audio and installs in the mid 90s, and that is some proper flocking equipment!

I ordered a kit from a manufacturer in the UK, consisting of a electrostatic (35000 Volt) flocking unit, 2-component epoxy adhesive, pigment paste to colour the adhesive to the colour of flock fibres used, and a 1kg bag of black flock fibres.

Looks like this:









First small test, coke bottle was the nearest subject/victim 

Looks brilliant, the flash on the camera makes it all sparkly, but not like that in normal light. Just pics up the details better because its pitch black in normal light.


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## toxtreme (Nov 22, 2011)

Jag har nog missat det, men vad har du tänkt flocka? 

(I've probably missed it, but what have du thought about to flock?)


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

First of all I'll flock all of the grey plastic like the bottom of the dash, center console, door sill covers etc. Later on the trim panels I still have to make for the subwoofer/amp rack etc. 

But maybe I'll rebuild the whole trunk first since I have got all my Utopia gear now. We'll see


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## PureDynamics (Nov 3, 2007)

Looking Good!


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Thanks Dan! 

How is the V8 RX7 coming along?


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## MTopper (Nov 4, 2009)

did you end up getting the car vinyl wrapped? your avatar shows it green... really curious


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that in this thread  I wrapped it myself actually, with the help of a couple of friends for the trickiest stuff. Here are some pics of the process:

Using 3M 1080 series wrap vinyl:









Ordered a roll of army green, and a few metres of carbon fiber vinyl:









Car as it were (just wrapped the grill in this pic):









I started with a front wing, since these are pretty small and easy to do (compared to the rest of the car), and easy to manage without any helping hands









Came out like this:









Next I did the trunklid, already debadged and smoothed beforehand.









Got some help to do the doors, mainly removing the handles (I did not know how easy this turned out to be  But always nice to have a VAG mechanic drop by to show some secrets!)









Door handle and lock trim wrapped and installed:


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

How it looks about halfway done:



























Had to fit the winter tyres, looks a bit **** on 4x14" wheels and 155/65 studded tyres :/ Think I'll paint them black, fits the colour scheme better. And have the winter to decide if I should keep the chrome Porsche wheels, or try something else for next season


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Need to do some rust repair on the sills before they are wrapped, and do the right side pillar.

Quick photoshop of the sills covered, smoked indicators and black OEM wheels. Really like the transformation


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## MTopper (Nov 4, 2009)

looks amazing man. great job


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## PureDynamics (Nov 3, 2007)

haakono said:


> Thanks Dan!
> 
> How is the V8 RX7 coming along?


Haven't worked on it for some time now. Too busy getting married, moving, dealing with all that. Will start the wifes car this weekend, hope to have it all 100% by CES. Then will go back to my car, need to finish up the sub box and start the front stage.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

MTopper said:


> looks amazing man. great job


Thanks  I got asked to do a winter camo look wrap on a 2012 Nissan GTR today, scary but fun  That is a $375.000 car over here because of the crazy taxes on cars. 



PureDynamics said:


> Haven't worked on it for some time now. Too busy getting married, moving, dealing with all that. Will start the wifes car this weekend, hope to have it all 100% by CES. Then will go back to my car, need to finish up the sub box and start the front stage.


Cool, sounds like you have been busy with more important stuff than a hobby, just take your time and make it perfect when you have the free time 

How is it going workvise?


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

Let us know how thw wrap holds up to road abuse. I never really talked to anyone that has wrapped their car but I thought of wrapping the lower part of my car. Not sure how long it would last.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

It will most likely last for years with normal use. Was just talking to a friend who is the sales manager at a high end car dealer here, they had a 2007 Audi RS4 that had been wrapped when new, still looked fresh (matte black vinyl).


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Winter weather has finally set in on the west coast where I live, so pretty much overnight the weather has changed from this:










to this:


















And the inside of the garage is just as cold as the outside + no occupying it for extended amounts of time since another car is parked there every night now in winter.

I think I have the setup for 2012 pretty much planned now. At the moment the system is set up like this:

Pioneer DEX-P99RS head unit
Tangband W3-1878 fullrange drivers playing from 200hz up powered by a Soundstream D100ii
Focal Utopia 7w2 midbass drivers playing from 40hz to 200hz powered by a Soundstream D200ii
FI BTL N2 18" subwoofer in a ported box playing from 31hz and down, powered by a SPL Dynamics 3500D monoblock

Swapping the Digital Designs DDW6,5" midbass drivers to the Focals has made a tremendous difference to the setup, they are just so more capable than the DDs.. I had to cross them over at 80hz for them not to bottom out when played halfway loudly. At the same volume level I can cross the Focals over at 31hz and they still have total control. Not much audible output difference between crossing them at 31 vs 40hz, so 40 it is. I can however cross the sub as low as 31hz and it still seamlessly connects to the midbass drivers, no chance at all placing it in the back by listening to it, bass is located up front for the whole bass spectrum.

The Soundstreams are built like tanks, and the SPL Dynamics is easily replacable if the winter weather is really cross this year, so these amps I can use all year round. I had my Sony XM2000R in this summer and fall, but it started acting up when it got really wet and cold this fall/beginning of winter. Now the Lupo has some issues with letting in water/moisture in both doors and hatch, so the car easily gets damp inside. The Sony put itself into protect mode, so I took it out of the car and put it indoors. After some hours inside it worked fine again, just needed to dry out, it was full of condensation on the inside of the alloy lid when I first got it inside.

But anyway, for 2012 the setup is probably going to look like this:

*Pioneer DEX-P99RS *head unit
*Mosconi A-Class* powering the fullrange drivers
*Sony XM2000R *powering the Focal midbass drivers
*Sony XM2000R* (yes, I have two of them ) powering the sub.

We'll see if the sub stays in the ported box. It is not recommended for a sealed box, but I have tried it with the ports sealed, and it plays beautifully! If I could go from a 200L ported box to a 120ish sealed one, that would be very helpful in order to make room for the amps


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

How are the TB W3-1878 working out with a 200Hz crossover point? They really seem like they need a higher setting but I have yet to try them in a small sealed enclosure.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

I settled on 200hz at 24db/octave highpass after actually running them down to 125hz at 36db/oct for a good while. I have them in pretty small enclosures, about half a litre I'd say, and this is a big difference from before when they were basically in a open dash. 

Tried them at first with a 125hz crossover point between them and the midbass, but it sounded better when the midbass played up to 200hz, midbass became a little meatier and fuller then. But the TB's gladly play down to 125 with all the output the Soundstream D100ii can give at a 8ohm load, probably somewhere between 25-35W, or more than double the RMS rating on the speakers. Really happy with them, but the do need alot of equalization to sound good in the car.


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

love love love the vinyl wrap. Sooo stealing that idea at some point. So hot.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Now this should make the fullrange speakers sing


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

How long did the wrap take? Any resources you recommend to learn how to do this?


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Professional wrap installers generally use about 20 man hours on a wrap, usually 2-3 installers on a 7-10 hour workday. No resources other than taking a wrapping class or working as an apprentice at a signmaker/wrap shop I think... I've been working with signmaking and graphics for about 7 years before I tried out wrapping, so I had a pretty good ground knowledge about working with vinyl. 

Many videos on youtube where you can see pros at work wrapping cars to pick up techniques, but its almost like watching a pro athlete do what he or she knows best, and trying to replicate it youself. It's very often not as easy as it looks on tv


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

haakono said:


> I settled on 200hz at 24db/octave highpass after actually running them down to 125hz at 36db/oct for a good while. I have them in pretty small enclosures, about half a litre I'd say, and this is a big difference from before when they were basically in a open dash.
> 
> Tried them at first with a 125hz crossover point between them and the midbass, but it sounded better when the midbass played up to 200hz, midbass became a little meatier and fuller then. But the TB's gladly play down to 125 with all the output the Soundstream D100ii can give at a 8ohm load, probably somewhere between 25-35W, or more than double the RMS rating on the speakers. Really happy with them, but the do need alot of equalization to sound good in the car.


OK, I guess I can't wait to hear them in a proper enclosure. In the open back/stuffed enclosure I tried them in they needed a 300Hz crossover to sound really clean in a large room. My plan for the car was to put them on the dash/pillars. But I have been liking what I am hearing with them in the kicks. However, this is not the type of driver that should be in the kicks in a everyday driver as dust getting into the VC might be a problem. I'm not sure what I want to do just yet...still experimenting.



haakono said:


> Now this should make the fullrange speakers sing


Yeah, I think you are right and have the right idea...would love to hear your car with that installed....but no plans to go to Norway so...let us know how it works out. What is interesting is that I bought a Genesis SIII 4 ch on ebay from a guy in Norway. I had it reconditioned and class A biased to run my W3-1878's and Scan Illum tweets. So I'm eager to decide where I want to put the drivers and get going on the actual install to see how good the combo sounds in the car.

Anyway, I will stay tuned for more updates.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

I tried them at home at first, running them in for about half a year. Their output increases significantly when only trying to fill a small car with sound compared to a large room, you will probably push them much harder indoors to get a decent output from them. So the crossover point can probably be lowered a great deal in the car. 

Took a snapshot of the new amp, looks much nicer in real life compared to photos  But anyhow:


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Been busy remodeling the trunk, took out all; Mosconi A-class, SS D200II, SPL D 3500D and FI BTL N2 18". Going for a slight remodeling of the setup as I do need some space to carry things around, and a 220 liter box in a Lupo does nothing to aid that, haha.. Also, with the excellent extension from the Focal 7w2 midbass drivers playing down to 40hz with a gentle slope in the crossover (12db oct now), the sub only plays from 31hz down, and at like 5% of what it can deliver outputvise to integrate well with the rest. It hardly even moves, 2mm or so 

So I want to try something different, I have 2 Focal 27WX subs and 2 Soundstream SPL160s sitting around, so I think I will try the Focals mounted isobarically in a smallish sealed box. 20 litres for a isobaric setup should be the same as a 40 litre box when using a single sub right?

Also, the car felt great to drive without the 100kg or so in the back, it only weighs 830 kilos, so adding 100 is really noticable. Should save at least 50-60kg by switching the subs 

It would be nice to try a high-power amp on the midbass drivers, it's easy to provoke the tiny Soundstream into getting stressed before the speakers lose their cool. Maybe a Mosconi on them also? Zero.3 for instance? 

Made a new amp rack for now, just installing the amps I have that are small to save some space. No Davinci and dual XM2000Rs for now  Mosconi A-Class, Soundstream D200ii and SPL Dynamics ICE-3500D. No matter what sub I'll install the monoblock will have no problem powering it/them.

Arranged the amps so the RCA inputs were close and to the side that the leads are run from the front, and the same for power. Just the Soundstream had to have power from the other side, but it is only run alongside RCA cables for a very short distance (10cm or so).


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

It soon time to change from winter to summer tires, so I got out my summer wheels from winter storage. They needed some detailing to shine, this is what they looked like earlier today:











So I went over them with some Meguiars All Metal Polish to bring out the shine in the chrome, and sealed them with a layer of Swissvax Shield teflon-infused wax for easy upkeep during the upcoming season. Looked a bit better afterwards


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## malutki (Apr 28, 2011)

a update, please?


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Sunday delivery of new amp and subs, not bad 



























Got this sweet Mosconi AS200.4 and a pair of DD 508s delivered today, brand new from the Mosconi/DD distributor. Got them delivered by a couple of buddies that have a streetbasser sponsored by the same dealer, they picked them up for me when they went to pick up the subs for their car. I said a while back that I would sponsor them with all the graphics if they got the car built (before it was began) and today we installed the graphics.

I had already built a box for the subs, it came to just under 40 liters using all the space available in the wheel well + what was left over in order to make it flush with the amp rack. Tried a single DD508 today, sealed in the 40 liter box, with 1300w on tap so no power shortage and enough headroom, but it needed a pretty high subsonic filter setting not to lose its breath on a output level matching what the front stage easily can take. Will try to port the box at first, and then try the pair of them in the same box, ported and sealed . Fun to experiment. DD does not recommend sealed boxes on any of their subs. They also require lots and lots of running in to sound their best, so it really is way to early to conclude on the sound yet, but it sounds promising.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

After some listening and tuning today, I found out that I should try to install both the 508s in the box, and port it according to recommended specs from the manufacturer of the subs. Hopefully a single 4" aeroport will be enough for the pair of 508s, as it was not enough for the pair of 1508s I had in my last car. Massive port noise and far too high air velocity through the port. It was directed backwards, and with the bootlid open you could feel the air from the port 3 meters back from the car  Those beasts shifted a LOT of air. But I think that the 508s are a little less crazy in that aspect.

Another thing is on my mind now that I have the two Mosconi amps from different series. They do not match in finish, the a-class is smooth brushed aluminium while the AS series amp is a more rough finished painted grey/silver. They also have different widths, 250mm for the a-class and 200mm for the AS200.4. The a-class also have some marks on the finish, it looks used (as it is), but not as flawless as the brand new 200.4-

So I thought that instead of painting them or some other permanent solution to their appearance, I want to vinyl wrap them with a design/image of some kind. I have always liked the old art series PPI amps with their colourful designs. I can also make the vinyl prints myself at home, and it would be nice to have something unique. The vinyl can always be removed when I feel like it. The design of the amp also lends itself to this very well, with all flat and angular surfaces, no lettering/silkscreening at all apart from the machined logo, and all cooling (heatsink with fans) is separate from the casing, inside the amps.

Since I have already decided on the placement in the amp rack, I can also make a design that flows from one amp to the other, making it seem much more that they "belong" together, since they have different designs.

I have made a design template in adobe illustrator of the amps, placed as they will be, now all that is left if to wring out a cool design. That is also the hard part


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

Lorving the Mosconi upgrade!!

You have probably one of the best amp collections (and not in quantity) that I have seen on here thanks for sharing!!


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

i really like my AS200.4's

the only thing that pisses me off is that there is not an independant gain for each channel! that really irratates me.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

req said:


> i really like my AS200.4's
> 
> the only thing that pisses me off is that there is not an independant gain for each channel! that really irratates me.


You don't use a DSP for level matching? 

Kelvin


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

So it turned out that the finish on the AS series amp was to coarse for the vinyl to adhere properly. So the wrap project did not go well unfortunately. The only solution is to use adhesive primer over the edges, but that turns a removable wrap into a permanent one.

So instead we (a mate and me) spent the afternoon removing the current amps (Mosconi a-class, Soundstream D200ii, SPL Dynamics ICE-3500D), moved the distribution block to make more room in the amprack, and did some rewiring of power cables to fit the new amp setup of Mosconi A-class for fullrange and AS200.4 for midbass and subs.

Installed the amps, roughly adjusted the gain settings and had a quick listen. The 200.4 has SO much more control of the midbass drivers that it immediately brought a smile to my face. I know my system well by now, and I would not have thought that changing an amp would give so profound results listening at the same levels as before, when the SS had both control and breathing room. Really big difference for the better now! Looking forward to playing around with setting and eq tomorrow, nothing is adjusted now, just rough gain adjustment.

Also tried disconnecting the subs and running the 7w2 midbasses down to 20hz, no problems at all at normal listening levels, much more controlled and impactful sound from them than before.

All in all, really happy with the upgrade


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Attended a car meet (spring nationals) yesterday, so the night before I quickly made a simple cover for the amps, finished in black suede. At least it hid the wires underneath  Sub box still needs work, either in form of a bigger port (port noise when turned up), or keep the port, lose a driver and make it a bit smaller so it will be the same height as the panel in front of it. Or swap the dual 8s for a Utopia 27WX that I have several of, or just put back the excellent Soundstream SPL160 in a small sealed box. Decisions decisions 

Found a pic of my car that a friend took yesterday, she is also a photographer for the largest tuning/ice car magazine in Norway. Her camera costs more than my car I think


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## fordriver1 (Jul 11, 2012)

looks awesome, loving the matt look.


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## Tominizer (Jul 5, 2012)

You truly have fine taste in equipment. 

My wife would never allow such shannigans around our house. :mean:


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## JCoffey (Feb 8, 2008)

LOVE the mat finish. I wish it didnt cost so bloody much to do, or I'd get my Chrysler 300 wrapped in either a mat dark grey or black.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Well, what things cost is all relative..  The cheapest secondhand 300C I could find for sale over here just now, a 7 year old 2,7liter V6 basemodel, still costs over $50,000 here in Norway.. 

I have a new sub on the way! One of the 508s went bad and I got a new on warranty, but instead of them sending me a new 508, I upgraded to a 2508 (with the value of a 508 deducted), and I'm selling the other 508 to a buddy. So now I will use a single DD 2508 instead of dual 508s.

Looking forward to testing it, the best 8s I have ever had and heard are the DD1508s, so if it improves on those it will be a very special little subwoofer 

I also got a great offer on a DD Z18, but that's another story.. A great offer is still more than I paid for the actual car it would be used in, hahaha!


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## Misanthropic (Apr 8, 2010)

Exceptional build from start to finish. I love your gear choices and the way you have chosen to display your various setups. You did a great job on the wrap, as well. I have never really liked v dubs...until today. I give you my token Bostonian "Wicked awesome" install man. Very impressive.


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## Tominizer (Jul 5, 2012)

.......because of this thread....... and my random surfing of the Internet, this weekend I came upon a pair of brand new Soundstream SP160's 15" subs in some local classifieds and bought them. He also had mint USAmps HC100 and HC50 old school cheater amps, but I didn't have the money for them. Mint condition. Very purple.:laugh:


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## jpeezy (Feb 5, 2012)

Wow, great pic, the car looks just right nice job on that lupo.was that an old sound stream d200 or 100 ?nice sounding amp.love the car!


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

The soundstream amp that I had installed before I got the last Mosconi was a D200II. I also have a D100II  I really want to get hold of a D30 (rarest SS amp of all?) to complement them. It's so rare that I have just found one pic on the whole web, and now its gone...

Things have happened in the far back of the car! New sub is in place 

So I got the all new DD 2508 8-inch subwoofer, (1st one sold in Norway, the distributor is awaiting feedback), and yesterday I started modifying my fiberglass box to accomodate it.

First of all, a few comparison pics between the 508 and 2508:


















My fiberglass box in the wheel well was a bit large for a single DD8 at almost 40 litres internal. I also needed to make a slotport with enough area so that port noise would not be an issue. I went for a port that has a 5x20cm opening, or about 30% larger port area than a 4" round port. I only had 18mm mdf available to build it from so it would take up quite a bit of space from the box, but that is also what I wanted. Length is about 60cm in total (L-shaped port), for a displacement of about 10 liters. Add a couple of liters for the driver and the net internal volume is just about 1^ft (28L). Good starting point for a DD8 from experience.

Port finished with rounded over ends. Added a plate to the other side of the L to fasten the whole port to the baffle, and also brace the baffle in the same process.









Marked up the port placement and opening on both sides of the baffle before fastening the port:









I have made the opening on the baffle, rounded the opening with a router and primed the port. Then sanded it down with 80-120-240 grit, primed again, black base coat and clearcoat. Waiting for it to dry now to sand it with 600grit and clearcoating again. Should be smooth and nice when finished.

Pic before last sanding and buffing:










Installed in the car:









I will build a new false floor over the amps and subwoofer, with plexiglass over the amps and plexiglass with cutouts over sub and port. And a thick carpet cover over this again so that the trunk space can be used to carry stuff  That was the whole point of removing the huge box with 18" FI BTL. 

The false floor over the amps now was made a late evening before a car meet, just to hide the wiring, hehe.. I have gotten some sweet 10mm aluminium honeycomb plates to make the floor out of, very light and strong.










Also got a sample of a composite plate made of 5mm plywood each side and 22mm hard foam core, for a very light 32mm sheet of wood composite. Interesting


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Long time since an update here, but something eventful has happened recently! I have sold the whole car to the national Mosconi/Gladen audio/Digital Designs distributor, and they will rebuild it as a demo car 

Product list for the rebuild looks like this (at this stage at least)
Pioneer DEX-P99RS
Mosconi A-class, Zero.4 and dual Zero.1 amps
Gladen Audio Aerospace components
2xDD 3518 subs 

They are hard at work now, it is supposed to premiere at a national car show in about 2 weeks time


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

wow!! Hope they do as much with it as you did. You really did so much on that car. Are you sad to see it go?

Do you have a new project/build?


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

I had kind of lost the spark for that car, so seeing it go to someone starting fresh with it with great plans and great skill was totally fine. Also the car has done over 400,000km, and is pretty much used up as a daily driver. As a showcar that does not matter.

I have already got a new car, bought a Golf 3 dirt cheap from a buddy a couple of months ago. I've actually built a system in this with some spare parts, and I did some changes to it by taking some components from the Lupo. This I have also competed with in emma sq competitions, and I'm qualified for the national finals in Master OEM class 

This is the system in the Golf:









Looks like this in the back:









Not completely done there, missing the trim pieces on either side of the rear shelf, but its the only pic I have, as the AS200.4 amp is now sold  I think I will order a Mosconi Zero.4 4-channel amp instead, upgrade a bit 

My real dilemma is this though.. I can take cash for the car, but I can also take out products at pretty much cost price (and we're talking distributor cost, not retailer cost) for the amount agreed on, meaning that I could basically swap the car for a custom-order Digital Designs Z18 sub (and that being the brand new improved DDZ418 with 4" VC). Now I have heard the regular/old Z18 in the SQ car belonging to the new owner of the Lupo (also a current european champion emma sq car), and it had a absolutely amazing sub stage in a sealed box for sq. The same woofer also had the world record SPL score at one time, think it's still the loudest single subwoofer setup at well over 180db. Now if one woofer can both be the loudest in the world and at the same time in a different car/box be a championshop winning sq sub, its pretty spectacular, and maybe the last sub you will need to buy (almost) ever 

So I'm thinking hard about it.. It retails for about $8500usd here.. The car is NOT worth that much 

Would not go in the old Golf though, I'm looking into either getting another car for my company, a small van like a VW Caddy, and keeping the Golf as a daily driver, OR getting rid of it and ordering a brand new car, either a VW CrossPolo or the brand new Golf 7. I'd be happy either which way


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Woot? TN51 @ 1.6kHz? Isn't it a little low for that tweeter? 

Kelvin


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Woot? TN51 @ 1.6kHz? Isn't it a little low for that tweeter? 

Kelvin


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Yep! And it sounds just great!  Played around a lot with the settings.. In the Golf you have to use the stock, unmodified speaker positions and stock speaker grilles in the Master OEM class, so the tweeters are on the dash and the mids are in the bottom of the doors. 

The overall sound was better with a low crossover setting and steep rolloff (24db oct) than a higher setting with shallower rolloff. The rolloff says more about how you push the tweeters than the actual crossover frequency. Let's say I had used a 3,2khz crossover point at 6db/oct. With a base level at 100db at 3,2hz, at 1,6hz they would play 94db, at 800hz they would play 88db, at 400hz they would play 82db etc. With a 1,6khz crossover freq at 24db/oct, at 1,6khz they would play 100db, at 800hz they would play 76db, at 400hz they would play 52db and so on. Much easier on the tweeters than a higher crossover point at a shallower slope.

So the crossover point in itself does not tell the whole story.


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## jpeezy (Feb 5, 2012)

hey nice work,those samples of honeycomb core, not too many people have that or even know about it,i have some as well,4th sample in 1st is the wood with foam core than aluminium then two samples of the plastic with fiberglass outer skin? anyway came across that about 10 years ago trying to build some really light panels and came across a company called alpha core,they make all sorts of that stuff, we actually used a few years ago, we helped with some prototype enclosures for the harry potter ride at universal in orlando, they needed a sub a nd enclosure that was ultra light, we ended up with that ,the plastic honeycomb with fiberglass as an outer sandwich and we used 3115 3m vette panel adhesive (two part epoxy) as the bonding material between the panels,brings back memories.the enclosure was measured in ounces it was so light!nice work keep up the good work!


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

haakono said:


> Yep! And it sounds just great!  Played around a lot with the settings.. In the Golf you have to use the stock, unmodified speaker positions and stock speaker grilles in the Master OEM class, so the tweeters are on the dash and the mids are in the bottom of the doors.
> 
> The overall sound was better with a low crossover setting and steep rolloff (24db oct) than a higher setting with shallower rolloff. The rolloff says more about how you push the tweeters than the actual crossover frequency. Let's say I had used a 3,2khz crossover point at 6db/oct. With a base level at 100db at 3,2hz, at 1,6hz they would play 94db, at 800hz they would play 88db, at 400hz they would play 82db etc. With a 1,6khz crossover freq at 24db/oct, at 1,6khz they would play 100db, at 800hz they would play 76db, at 400hz they would play 52db and so on. Much easier on the tweeters than a higher crossover point at a shallower slope.
> 
> So the crossover point in itself does not tell the whole story.


Yeah I know how slopes works... I'm just asking about the safety of your tweeter. 
If I remember correctly, the FS of the TN-51 was around 1.8kHz or 1.9kHz (The FS for the TN-52 is 1.955kHz) - so in "theory", the TN-51 should be crossed over around 3.6kHz @ 12dB, or 2.8kHz @ 18dB, or 2.25kHz @ 24dB... to be on the safe side. 
So even with a 24dB/oct slope, your Xover point is below FS 

Don't want your tweeter to fry one day  

Kelvin


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Nice to see some actual progress on this car for once, hehe  Had to sell it to see it happen though 



















Those subs are Digital Design 3518 18 inchers, with dual 18" passive radiators instead of ports. This will really put the L in SQL


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

haakono said:


> Nice to see some actual progress on this car for once, hehe  Had to sell it to see it happen though
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WHAT THE...  

Kelvin


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

that was my exact same exclimation ...

passive radiators and digital designs...

0_o


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Don't worry, the car is in good hands, expect to see unconventional solutions, just like in the european championship winning car of the new owner: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...4-touring-mosconi-odr-norwegian-sq-car-7.html


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## sweefu (Jun 26, 2011)

Hey mate,
What a great install! Very cool and interesting. 
I am looking at the Tang Band 1878 wideband driver to use in my car (2-way with Peerless SLS 8" as midbass)
I would be happy to cross around 300hz and use a .50 - .75 litre enclosure. I was wondering though, do you miss any high frequencies? That top end 'sparkle' which a tweeter often so warmly provides.
Thanks.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

sweefu said:


> Hey mate,
> What a great install! Very cool and interesting.
> I am looking at the Tang Band 1878 wideband driver to use in my car (2-way with Peerless SLS 8" as midbass)
> I would be happy to cross around 300hz and use a .50 - .75 litre enclosure. I was wondering though, do you miss any high frequencies? That top end 'sparkle' which a tweeter often so warmly provides.
> Thanks.


I am also curious about that!... but couldnt read if he liked the end result... bc he sold them.

Did you try the TB w3? And like them without tweeters?? 

I am looking for a new speaker setup and thought of AMT's but also like the fullrange no xo approach!... 
I am curious......


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Wow, blast from the past!  

I had the TB w3 in both this car, and the next car I had. Both in tweeterless setups. 

Very successful in both cars I would say. Imaging was excellent, and what is missing in top end frequency response (on paper) is not such a huge issue in real world settings. The final setup in the following car I had was TB w3-1878 widebands playing from 100hz and up, Focal Utopia midbass playing from 40-100hz, and subs playing from 40hz and down. 

Setup and tune was made by two head judges/multiple SQ european finals champions, so I can't take credit for anything else than choosing to put my trust in them, and the results were amazing really.


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

No kidding. Blast from the past. Awesome thread Haakono!!
The SPL 160 on page 1 brings back memories.. I had one in 1995 too lol.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

I had one in 1997 I think, powered by a SS Rubicon 1002. Sold both items to a buddy after a year or so. Talked with him about 15 years later, he still had the sub sitting in a closet  So I bought it back. Then I found this one in the pic for sale in Sweden. It had been used in a showroom for about 3 weeks when new, then it had been sitting in its cardboard box ever since. So I just had to get it  

By this time I had my own term-lab, and I managed to play just a few tenths under 140db, in a 1,5cf sealed box, on music. But it wasn't the loudness that was this drivers main feature, it was the sound quality. It was like a super-version of the SS10R (velvet hammer) subs.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 13, 2017)

haakono said:


> Wow, blast from the past!
> 
> I had the TB w3 in both this car, and the next car I had. Both in tweeterless setups.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the answer Haakono!

So you did use a dsp right? that the judges fine tuned... Because, speaking of "Blast from the past" In my Classic car I still have my old setup from 15 yrs ago Nakamichi CD700II with Zapco amps and also Hifonics Gemini and Hercules set when they were pretty good, (before they decided to make worse amps) and Vifa speakerset, but want to upgrade it right this time... and maybe with a Helix Dsp.3.

But in one of the threads some ppl said I crossed waaaayy to low, also at around 40hz to the sub. And 40hz and up for the mid... saying I would have phase issues for crossing so low. Crossing around 80hz or even higher would be better, but of course I would need a dsp, otherwise the subsound comes to much from the back... That could be true of the phase issues of course... but u didnt have that? 

Also, the plan was using a Satori MW16P as woofer and a AMT tweeter crossed at 3khz. But.... the no xo 3" is also a great way to get higher stage and no crossing at all.... 

I have been away for years from caraudio, very busy in homeaudio... but is it still wise or done to use just a FAST fullrange setup? 

I am really curious!.

Btw, in my caraudio period there was a guy from Sweden Per Solder I believe.. he also had a great system in his car... maybe u heard of him.


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