# Mids in A pillars



## mobeious

If u have mids in ur A pillars post pics here


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## ravestarfx

i have some from my old ford focus build .. . trying to find it

try to post later . . .


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## Samuel

Im interested to see this, im about to start on some A pillar's myself, always looking to others for ideas


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## SkodaTeam

Old project, mids DLS UR2,5


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## MorfiusX

Here's one of the two I am working on. Both are actually installed and I working to finish up the trim ring.


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## Preal

Wow. Looks nice.


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## doitor

J.


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## Andy Jones

From like 2005 or 2006 in my Ford 150. I wouldn't do it again. You can get much better sound with speakers in different locations. The tweeters is definitely in the wrong place in that set up, but the mid being there isn't much better.


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## jimbno1

Andy can you extrapolate on why the F150 was so bad with A-Pillar mids and tweets. And what better alternatives are there? 

My Nissan Titan has very little real estate in the kicks and there is a huge console (which is not as bad in the 150 from this pic). But I have huge A-pillars and a very deep dash.

I am only interested in a single seat setup.

Jim


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## BigRed

^^ that location seems to work for me


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## Andy Jones

The reflections off the glass, the reflections off the pillar, the limited stage width. The pure amount of tuning it takes for it to sound good. all of those are negatives and more.

The tweeter in that set up was causing a phase problem with the mid. Dave Brooks fixed this issue in his truck by moving the tweeter on the same plane as the mid. But even then you fight limited stage width (always inside the pillars), or limited depth---and the sitting position to stage is in your face. 

Seriously it took months to tune that set up. From playing with the air flow inside the enclosure to get the speaker to play low enough to blend with the midbass, to getting the amplitude alignment and time alignment to work together to get the imaging right. Then working with the reflections. I ended up with about 2-3" of towels on the dash of that truck to get the imaging better. Tonality wise was a fight because of the reflections. 

It took about 4 hours to reach the point the truck was at after a year with kickpanels in my car. Just in testing pure kicks in my truck I got close to where I was after a year with that set up. 



I now have a mid and tweet in the kick of that truck. So much better. So much easier to tune. It sounded sweet just in testing. I still haven't gotten to full on tuning of that set up, but I liked it more--and it wasn't offensive from the passenger seat. 

I've heard numerous apillar set ups. Only a very few did I actually like. Dave Brook's set up I loved, but the listening position to stage was not the greatest--and there was no way to fix it. The others that I did like the owners had spent a stupid amount of time getting them right. Building several variations, tuning, tuning by experts, etc. I've heard more apillar set ups that make me want to kick a puppy than I have that I would want in my car. 

Doitor's truck was also good the last time I heard it---but look at how many variations of those pillars he has built. He has his seats moved back about 6", and he, Scott Buwalda and a few others I believe have spent a LONG time tuning that set up. Don't just look at the picture of his pillars above---look at his entire build log. Look at how much they change. I'd roll dice he isn't even showing all that he is doing to that pillar to make it work. 

I know there are several things I did to my pillars I only shown a few people until I quit competing in the truck. I may have posted pics since then--not sure if I have or not. The backside of my apillar was so important it wasn't funny. I spent a month working on it. 

It isn't as easy as throwing a mid in the apillar and walking away. You are going to spend months getting it right. If you don't---it isn't going to sound nearly as good as mids in the kick or even the door. 

If I were doing a pure one seat car again--I would put the midbass in the floor vented to the outside of the vehicle (because midbass causes rattles in the door--I hate rattles), the midrange in the door, and the tweeter in the sail panel. Or if you believe you can stop rattles in teh door, I'd put it all in the doors with the tweet in the sail panel.


EDIT: that console is big because it had a JL Audio 12w6v2 in it. Fired to the rear. Sounded better than firing to the front---who would have thought.


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## Andy Jones

BigRed said:


> ^^ that location seems to work for me


Not saying it doesn't "work" (depending on your definition).

You copied Brooks, who modified my set up, that I stole from Scott Buwalda's red 240 (the first install when he first debuted the L3 at Elite Summer Nationals in like 2004 or 2005). EDIT: I should have paid more attention to Scott's Red 240 install at that time. He had the tweeter in the right location to avoid the phase issue I fought. I'm a tard. 

so while I haven't heard your truck, I've heard Brook's truck. It works awesome in his set up. His listening position to stage though is not nearly as good as it would be with the midrange in the kicks. it also has some other limitations---which is why if you follow Brook's truck he keeps playing with them. Hell he even showed up a show two years ago with an L6 in the Apillar that was pure dipole. 

The apillars have a lot of limitations. They can work--but you have to put a LOT of time in them. You can get there a lot faster in the kicks. 

Look at Scott's Red 240. The first version---apillar mids. Second version--midbass and midrange in the floor.


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## AAAAAAA

This kinda counts


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## doitor

Andy Jones said:


> Doitor's truck was also good the last time I heard it---


 When was the last time you listened to my car?

J.


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## Andy Jones

Tulsa. Right after you did the seat extensions. Car/truck (whatever it is  ) was good.


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## doitor

Andy Jones said:


> Tulsa. Right after you did the seat extensions. Car/truck (whatever it is  ) was good.


I had L1v1's in the pillars, L4's in the kicks off axis and L8's in the doors.

J.


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## Andy Jones

then nevermind--remove Doiter from the apillar sounds good list. It just got smaller.


I never looked (other than at the seat rails) just assumed it was the same as on here.


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## falkenbd

Stage width isn't easy with this setup.


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## BigRed

Well Andy, not to argue, but Brooks's seats are not extended, but Jorge's are. I have tried kicks in the truck and it does'nt sound good to me. you sit too forward and upright imo. Between kicks and pillars in my truck, I'll take the pillars without a question. I have never had width issues. I have been scored very well with most judges claiming the left stage is a couple inches beyond the pillar, and the right several inches beyond  I do feel that your first mock up with the tweeters not on the same plane did create issues, especially width, but on the same plane I have had great success, and the width was not limited to the pillars 

To each his own I guess


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## Lanson

OP, check out Shok Industries' build, great looking pillar mounts there.


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## BowDown

Better pics will come in my next Build Thread update.


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## Samuel

This thread is looking great, you guys do some really nice work with A pillars, keep them coming


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## dvflyer

These are more dash pods, but they were attached to the pillars in my 350z.


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## 1sty

Hey Andy quick question.
IN the F150 at your normal seating position, how much space does the drivers kick end up having between your ear side to side and front to back?

I have the issue in my Xterra where the truck is so narrow and the seating is so erect that anything other then the A pillar is near inaudible on the drivers side. In essence, sit like you would in an office chair and imagine the speaker 1" away from your ankle...that's where my kicks would be. So I am suspecting that the F-150 allows more room between you and the kick side to side and the kick is further out in front of you.

I would think that this issue would be the same for some of the guys with smaller cars where there just is no room left to right in the car for a kick panel speaker to have decent benefits.
This is all assuming an actual drivable seating position of coarse. Not one where the seat is back 6" too far for someone to reach the pedals.


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## chefhow

AAAAAAA said:


> This kinda counts


How did this setup sound? I am looking at doing rather than A Pillars since they have airbags.


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## Andy Jones

If you just want midrange out of the driver---then this worked nicely. Need an air saw, but it works  

This was testing out a 2 way set up. I had some issues at the lower end of the midbass spectrum because of some metal vibrating up in the dash area that I couldn't reach, so I've redone them and they take up a bit more footroom. I don't have any pics.

For pure midrange though, they worked great. The first one was testing 100% off-axis. Second angled them slightly which helped out on the upper end for that midrange.
The Third was a HAT L3. All of these fit behind the stock kickpanel plastic 






























I could have angled the smaller mid (the first two pics are a 7" mid) almost completely towards the listener if I had wanted to. I think Randy Kuniun (theotherhatedguy) has some pics of an F150 he did with the midrange in that location that are almost perfectly on axis with the listener.


Note--I move a bunch of wiring harnesses to get to that point. It wasn't that empty down there when I started. Both sides had several harnesses.


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## Andy Jones

I got the pics out of order First is a driver off-axis completely that was intended for a two way set up. Second pic is an L3. Third is the same driver as in the first pic but angled slightly. 

I was wrong above also, the angled mount didn't fit behind the factory kickpanel trim. It was slightly to large. 


the hole you see in the floor vented the midbass outside the vehicle in a previous install---and again in teh current install.


EDIT:

Way old testing: L3 and DLS tweet in kick.











I looked for pics when I had a Dyn 170 in the kick, but couldn't find it. Took up some floor room, but again that was to play midbass. To play midrange only, I think you can get away with quite a smaller kickpanel.


My truck is my testing ground. It has been through so many speakers in so many locations that it isn't funny. I competed with it between 2004 and 2006. Since that time it has been used as a testing ground for everything under the sun while I competed with my car. that is why you see so many different things in the pictures, and why the carpet and other items ares in such rough shape. I have new carpet for it now, and it is undergoing an install that will be clean and "finished" for the first time since around June of 2007. God willing


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## AAAAAAA

chefhow said:


> How did this setup sound? I am looking at doing rather than A Pillars since they have airbags.


Not good, mostly because of the tweets.... my weird angles and such made them hard to sound right. Sounded ok with just the TB 3 though. I don't think the location is bad but my implementation wasn't the best.


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## ErinH

Since the OP asked, here's the current version of my pillars. Scanspeak 12m in ~ 0.027ft^3 enclosure, with Hertz ml280 tweeters.


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## BigRed




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## thehatedguy

Andy speakith the truff.

Also I think when Randy had the mids in the kicks of his truck, I want to think he also had horns in there.


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## Scott Buwalda

A slight clarification... The red 240SX install (aka, the "eBay car") from 2005 had an a-pillar arrangement, and after some tweaking it sounded fantastic. Position to soundstage was its only problem. Other than that, the staging was deep, and layered (many layers), imagining precise, and with the tweeter location about 5mm from the side window glass, it was wide as all hell. In 2006 it went to kick panels because the car was competing in "Pro Ultimate", a higher class which required being judged from the two front seats simultaenously. 

I am currently working on my G35 and one possible system design includes going back to point-source pillars with an L3 Pro (160 Hz - 20,000 Hz) when said drivers hit production.

Scott


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## Scott Buwalda

...all that being said, pillars are only good for one seat. Usually not a porblem in many competitive organizations today which only judge from one seat now for many classes...


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## jorgegarcia

Scott Buwalda said:


> I am currently working on my G35 and one possible system design includes going back to point-source pillars with an L3 Pro (160 Hz - 20,000 Hz) when said drivers hit production.
> 
> Scott


Pic's or it didn't happen.

============

BTW, I've loved the nissan cars you have built, first in the magazines then on the web (the energy drink cover for the control in the cup holder was copied in 2 of my installs). I wanted a 240sx so bad. Now it's just imposible to find a fair priced model.


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## Andy Jones

I want to be clear--I'm not saying pillars don't work. I'm saying they have some flaws but most importantly--don't expect to drop a speaker in a pod and hit play on the CD player and be done. 

Between kicks and apillars---it takes a $hitton more tuning and building time to get apillars right than it does to get kicks to work. 

The apillars I've heard that are so bad are the ones where people just built some pods, hit time alighnment and thought they were done. You can get kickpanels to work like that most of the time. With apillars, you have to dig in, and changing speakers every 2 days doesn't help. You have to KNOW your speaker. 


I liked the 240 (ebay car) pillars so much I flat out stole that idea. Didn't ask permission, didn't talk to Scott about it first--just went to the garage and started fiberglassing. It was a steep learning curve. My pillars for my truck weigh around 10lbs each. That's not even taking into account some of the stuff down in the dash (besides polyfill) that I did. I think Jan and Monty's car--their pillars weigh even more than that.


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## BowDown

ant said:


>


Holyshit! 

What drivers are those?


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## falkenbd

chefhow said:


> How did this setup sound? I am looking at doing rather than A Pillars since they have airbags.


Are you sure the airbags are in the pillars? They actually come out of the pillar?

I thought that was the case for mine as well, but after I had it dismantled I realized that they come out of the headliner, the only thing on the pillar was the SRS Airbag logo.


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## SkodaTeam

BowDown said:


> Holyshit!
> 
> What drivers are those?


DLS Scandinavia. But the install  The midrange is hidden well, and they are well known as not good dispersion driver


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## chefhow

falkenbd said:


> Are you sure the airbags are in the pillars? They actually come out of the pillar?
> 
> I thought that was the case for mine as well, but after I had it dismantled I realized that they come out of the headliner, the only thing on the pillar was the SRS Airbag logo.


Thanks for the headsup, I havent gotten into it yet. Was planning on starting in the next month.


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## mobeious

wow this thread has got me second guessing doin pillars .. maybe ill stay with the kicks


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## thehatedguy

Those are un-pretty.



ant said:


>


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## Andy Jones

I would like to play with that DLS tweeter though. Just based on looks and previous DLS stuff I've had.


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## Lanson

Actually they look like something that would strike your head in an accident, rendering them lethal weapons in a crash.


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## 02753102

Andy Jones said:


> I liked the 240 (ebay car) pillars so much I flat out stole that idea.


so much talk of these pillars..can anyone post a pic of them?


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## Andy Jones

I don't have any. I saw pieces of them after he took them apart. Scott built a DAMN nice pillar pod for that car. Like he said, the tweeter basically touched the window. He put the tweeter in the sail panel without putting it in the sail panel. 

From what I remember it didn't stick out either. You didn't walk past the car and go "damn look at those things attached to the apillar". Overall, very well done.


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## ...evo...

bikinpunk said:


> Since the OP asked, here's the current version of my pillars. Scanspeak 12m in ~ 0.027ft^3 enclosure, with Hertz ml280 tweeters.


Nice job easily the best looking out of all of the examples here!
Did you have much trouble setting up them in this a-pillar position?
Im considering doing similar in a 2dr ute (australian term for pickup), but after reading that its quiet difficult to setup a 3-way system in this way i may prefer to stick to the door card/footwell?


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## rcurley55

Oddly enough the original pods are no longer on his site. the original thread dates to 2005


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## dlechner

rcurley55 said:


> Oddly enough the original pods are no longer on his site. the original thread dates to 2005


Thought I had more, but oh well.

These are from 2005 USACI WF and CES.

HA!! Just realized that you can see the man himself!!!!!


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## Andy Jones

Notice the midbass also. All speakers on axis. That's sweet. 

Funny I don't remember them being that "high" off teh dash. Are those the same versions as were in teh car at ESN when it first debuted (I think its second show overall at the time)?


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## rcurley55

Andy Jones said:


> Notice the midbass also. All speakers on axis. That's sweet.
> 
> Funny I don't remember them being that "high" off teh dash. Are those the same versions as were in teh car at ESN when it first debuted (I think its second show overall at the time)?


IIRC, the car had an early install with a miss-mash of drivers in there - I want to say something Quart for tweeters and I forget the midbasses. I think this was the setup in the second/third competitions for the car. Originally there was a processing problem for the first show this this stage, then it got sorted out for the third show.

At least that's my recollection without digging for it.


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## dlechner

Andy,

Scott can probably verify, but I think this is one set of two. I am pretty sure though that he only built these for the Hybrid speakers. Not any other brand.

Also, I believe its first show was CES for Ebay.

Dave


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## rcurley55

dlechner said:


> Andy,
> 
> Scott can probably verify, but I think this is one set of two. I am pretty sure though that he only built these for the Hybrid speakers. Not any other brand.
> 
> Also, I believe its first show was CES for Ebay.
> 
> Dave


I didn't mean to imply that the first setup (non HAT) was in the same build. I recall the debut of those pillars was with the HAT setup. Then I think the 3" moved to the kicks and the tweeters went to a more traditional pillar build.


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## dlechner

No worries. I think that you mean the blue car. As shown here. So yes, he did run many versions in this car.

Scott Buwalda's Hybrid Silvia S14.5 (260SX) Spec. GT-R

The one we are talking about is his red 240sx.

Project 240

Yes, Scott did move the L3 in the kicks with the L6. Then kept the L1 in the pillars. I actually competed this for him at IASCA finals along with my Mate from overseas. Had a blast!


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## The Drake




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## newtitan

ant said:


>



okay this is new to me, how do you deal with the mid losing so much output due to the rather large tweeter in front of it?

I like the way you modeled the enclosure to the line of the pillar

do tell??


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## rcurley55

dlechner said:


> No worries. I think that you mean the blue car. As shown here. So yes, he did run many versions in this car.
> 
> Scott Buwalda's Hybrid Silvia S14.5 (260SX) Spec. GT-R
> 
> The one we are talking about is his red 240sx.
> 
> Project 240
> 
> Yes, Scott did move the L3 in the kicks with the L6. Then kept the L1 in the pillars. I actually competed this for him at IASCA finals along with my Mate from overseas. Had a blast!


Hi Dave - I am talking about the red car. I'm familiar with the white one and then the subsequent blue build.

I just seem to recall the red car competing (very shortly) with a not HAT setup, then it went to the HAT setup with the L3/L1 in pillars, the the L3 went to the kicks, L1 in the pillars

If my history is wrong, I wouldn't be surprised as it's been years.


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## Scott Buwalda

Hey guys:

Thanks for the interest in the red 240SX. Speaking of that car, it will be the future home of Joel Martin's tribute build, that is if the body shop ever gets done with the car! True old school system: full compliment of ODR (I need to send Mark brooks' CD player back to him), and several pristine PPI art series amplifiers. Maybe by Summer it will be out?

Right, so back to the history of this car...

Debuted at a show in eastern SC early in 2005 with HAT prototype L3's, as well as MB Quart QSD tweeters <barf>, and some off-the-shelf carbon Kevlar midbass'. The MB Quart tweeters were unmanageable on-axis, so as soon as the prototype L1's were done, they immediately got put into the car and new steel flanges made to place them about 5mm from the side window glass. It was akin to the old "plate speaker" philosophy. The car was competed at Elite Summer Nationals with L3's and L1's, and the same yellow-coned midbass (and no, they weren't DLS or Focal). The midbass did nothing below 80 Hz. Lots of EQ and finessing. Got 2nd at that show. 

NOPI was the same system but with more dials turned, and was the highest SQ score of the show. 

The system was competed at Finals that year with a very early prototype L6 in the kicks. It got fourth place, which I still think it low considering how good the car sounded.

Car was shown at CES2006. Went out there with all tunes lost on the EQ, time domain, and crossovers. Rolled the car into the booth and immediately had people asking to hear it. This was one of those times in life when you look back and wish you had done it differently. I should have said "give me a few hours to tweak on the car." But I didn't. Spent 10 minutes on it, setting only crossovers, amplitude, and time, and those that heard it at that moment were unimpressed, and became vocal about it on the internet. It was a set-back. Car sound decent but wasn't "holy cow" good. The magic was lost on the trailer to Vegas when the battery dumped. 

About this time, decided to go into Pro Ultimate, a two-seat class. Tore the pillars out and went with L6's and L3's in the kicks (separately sealed infinite baffle spaces in the frame rail), and L1's in the pillars. This year the Pro Ultimate category was DEEP with competitors at the IASCA Finals. I think there was eight or nine former world champions in the class that year. The car came in third place.

eBay pulled the plug on all spending by the end of 2006, so the car was retired. 

It's apparently done now, with a full 8-pt. roll cage and a fresh bit of paint and body work. Engine compartment has been smoothed like my blue 260SX. Got all the gear, just need the car back and a few months to build an old-school system for Joel Martin, who died about a year and a half ago.


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## thehatedguy

Quarts on axis? Holy ear drills Batman!


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## Andy Jones

It still had the Quarts in it at ESN that year when I heard it. 

Not the first apillar set up I had seen or heard, but the first one that made me think the idea would work. 

Again, one of those times where someone does something and makes it look so good that you think it is easy. Not until you try to duplicate it do you realize the work that went into it.


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## Just_Crazy

bump; getting good ideas


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## Nick337

Lets keep this going!! I can't wait to get my car back from the installer, to see what kind of job he did for me.


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## remeolb

Who's tried their mid and tweet mounted off-axis in the A-pillar?


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## Patrick Bateman

Andy Jones said:


> The reflections off the glass, the reflections off the pillar, the limited stage width. The pure amount of tuning it takes for it to sound good. all of those are negatives and more.
> 
> The tweeter in that set up was causing a phase problem with the mid. Dave Brooks fixed this issue in his truck by moving the tweeter on the same plane as the mid. But even then you fight limited stage width (always inside the pillars), or limited depth---and the sitting position to stage is in your face.
> 
> Seriously it took months to tune that set up. From playing with the air flow inside the enclosure to get the speaker to play low enough to blend with the midbass, to getting the amplitude alignment and time alignment to work together to get the imaging right. Then working with the reflections. I ended up with about 2-3" of towels on the dash of that truck to get the imaging better. Tonality wise was a fight because of the reflections.
> 
> It took about 4 hours to reach the point the truck was at after a year with kickpanels in my car. Just in testing pure kicks in my truck I got close to where I was after a year with that set up.
> 
> 
> 
> I now have a mid and tweet in the kick of that truck. So much better. So much easier to tune. It sounded sweet just in testing. I still haven't gotten to full on tuning of that set up, but I liked it more--and it wasn't offensive from the passenger seat.
> 
> I've heard numerous apillar set ups. Only a very few did I actually like. Dave Brook's set up I loved, but the listening position to stage was not the greatest--and there was no way to fix it. The others that I did like the owners had spent a stupid amount of time getting them right. Building several variations, tuning, tuning by experts, etc. I've heard more apillar set ups that make me want to kick a puppy than I have that I would want in my car.
> 
> Doitor's truck was also good the last time I heard it---but look at how many variations of those pillars he has built. He has his seats moved back about 6", and he, Scott Buwalda and a few others I believe have spent a LONG time tuning that set up. Don't just look at the picture of his pillars above---look at his entire build log. Look at how much they change. I'd roll dice he isn't even showing all that he is doing to that pillar to make it work.
> 
> I know there are several things I did to my pillars I only shown a few people until I quit competing in the truck. I may have posted pics since then--not sure if I have or not. The backside of my apillar was so important it wasn't funny. I spent a month working on it.
> 
> It isn't as easy as throwing a mid in the apillar and walking away. You are going to spend months getting it right. If you don't---it isn't going to sound nearly as good as mids in the kick or even the door.
> 
> If I were doing a pure one seat car again--I would put the midbass in the floor vented to the outside of the vehicle (because midbass causes rattles in the door--I hate rattles), the midrange in the door, and the tweeter in the sail panel. Or if you believe you can stop rattles in teh door, I'd put it all in the doors with the tweet in the sail panel.
> 
> 
> EDIT: that console is big because it had a JL Audio 12w6v2 in it. Fired to the rear. Sounded better than firing to the front---who would have thought.


Reflections off the windshield are a drag... Anything you can do to control the wavefront in the first millisecond or so will go a long way. That works out to 13.5".










This might be bigger than most people could live with, but it works.


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## BowDown

*Before Covering:*










*Driver:*










*Passenger:*










*Outside:*











*My Build Thread:*
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-build-logs/69600-2010-fusion-sq-installation-thread.html


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## gutz

I know it isn't DIY
But here is mine done by an installer who is also a friend of mine 
( Grills should be re-done soon - Need to paint the mdf ring )


















































The finish is flocking


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## Hernan

At the same car I went from A pillar RS52 mids and Seas Neos to a Kikpanel setup with all the three drivers very close to each other. Not bad but.. legs, mines and nicer ones blocks the HF ouput.
After that I went to A pillar TB W3 and TB ceramics at the pillars. bingo!
Solid soundstage, no problems with legs diffraction. I thouthg I was done.
Today I have a spare hour before a meeting, and move the midranges to the kicks again... Wide and natural soundstage. The tw are at the same vertical axis with the mids. It sounds realy nice.... New kicks on the way...


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## JdotP17

How do you guys create such fantastic work? Im looking to build some custom A-pillar / Dash enclosures and would appreciate any information and help you can offer. Ill be purcashing a focal 3-way set, so itll be a tweeter and 4" midrange id like to install.

Thanks
Joe


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## Nick337

looks good to all of those that have custom pillars.


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## jhmeg2

remeolb said:


> Who's tried their mid and tweet mounted off-axis in the A-pillar?


MB Quart QSC 6 1/2" midrange and 1" silk MTX tweet
it sounds great, but not extreamly wide


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## BowDown

remeolb said:


> Who's tried their mid and tweet mounted off-axis in the A-pillar?


Mine are. What you need to know?


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## sqcomp

So have I:


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## jhmeg2

There are some very beautiful a-pillar builds in here, I am pondering the thought of getting a Subaru WRX, and I'm active in my truck now, and leaving that system alone. In the WRX I am going to go with a Kenwood DNX9960, which has time correction,crossovers, and 5.1, so I will most likely be passive with a three way. 1" silk dome tweet and 3" dome mid in the a-pillar, close to on axis, and the 6.5" or so in the door, coax in the rear. A full range 2" center, and between a 6" and 8" sub in a t-line. I have the two 4 channel amps I'm going to use, and also an Eclipse EQ2102 30 band EQ to throw in if I need. ( the deck only has 13 bands). Can you all give me some suggestions as two what drivers to use. I am open to all offers and ideas. I hope I'm not thread jacking this, is so a mod can move it. Jus please inform me as to where it went. thanks.


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## Ultimateherts

newtitan said:


> okay this is new to me, how do you deal with the mid losing so much output due to the rather large tweeter in front of it?
> 
> I like the way you modeled the enclosure to the line of the pillar
> 
> do tell??


Isn't that a driving hazard as it looks like you can not see your driver's side mirror?


----------



## BigRed




----------



## less

There's some really innovative and attactive installations here... I mean we have some really creative people gathering here... love this place! If you have been able to make these set ups sound as good as they look, more power to you! 

I've never seen a home audiophile system with floor mounted mids/tweeters, so I tried hard to get a pillar system to sound good... no luck though. I think there are just too many things to overcome in cars (or at least in mine), making pilar installation much more difficult to perfect. For instance, my new small pod project was designed in hopes I'd be able to customize it and mount up top, but in just a few short minutes with test installations both up and down, I could tell that I'd have less to overcome down low and up top might not even be possible to tame into sounding truly good. The stage width was immediately noticable and other things troubled me as well. (See my install thread linked in my signature for details)

The one person who's had a lot of impact on my system design told me for years to stop fooling with pillars and move to kicks ftw, but obviously some people have success. Have many of you with the wonderful installations played with kick installations too? Comparisons? Is there much difference from car to car in how well an Apillar installatin will sound (pre-tuning)? Is there any trick to broadening the stage, minimizing the kind of brittle sound that I suspect comes from reflections, or any of the other issues? Inquiring minds and all. 

Thanks and again - great work!

Jim


----------



## sqcomp

I honestly don't think that I'd call my sound "brittle". I might understand why you'd say that, but I certainly don't qualify. 

I think my inspiration came from people like Big Red that I noticed doing the pillar mounting. After talking with S.B. about 6 years back and while I was overseas, he planted some staging ideas in my head. I had some spare time after I got back so I messed around and the staging came together after some placement exercises. Personally, I wanted to do something a little different with mine, so I decided to flex slight angles and off axis response.

Instead of doing the same tired 90's component egg shaped baffle, I turned the tweeter and mid off axis from each other and the listener in the same pod. That and it being so off axis people don't see how I can get great sound.

I don't understand why you can't actually. I've got a friend who is doing his own pillars with different speakers but a similar pillar mounting as mine. His staging and phasing is WAAAAAAY off. Perhaps it's the speakers that can't handle the off axis mounting, I told the person who actually made the pillars that I wanted to take him behind the shop and beat him about the head and shoulders. Why? Because you should have some sort of phase accuracy and some resemblance of a stage before you take the pillars to glass.

For some speakers it works, some it doesn't I suppose.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

I like this thread. I am building a system in a pointac grand am. I have the Hybrid Audio L4 to put up in the pillar. Any suggestions.

I will have the L6 in the door. No tweeters in this install. I have Rockford Fosgate Power DVC 10" subs in the rear deck.

Any Suggestions?


----------



## sqcomp

First, you probably have an experienced HAT dealer around you if you ever need some support...

The most important thing is the planning of the A-pillar build. I would suggest hooking the L4s up to power and finding a good center image. The left and right imaging SHOULD follow in step if you find that image. If you're going tweeter-less, think about your source and it's EQ ability up top. Now, also take into consideration that the more on axis you play the L4, the less EQ'ing up top you'll need. Take that into thought when you're finding your imaging picture. I used IASCA's left, right, and center imaging placement tracks to find one of my spots for my pillar build. It just happens that my L4's are 90 degrees off axis and actually have to be CUT on the overall EQ level. This probably has something to do with reflections of the glass. My L1 Pro SE's are even more off axis. I suppose I'm a reflection junkie...you'd not be able to tell though. My staging and imaging are right on.

If I can stress anything, it will be to NOT cut into your a-pillars until you've played with placement and are satisfied with the sound stage you have found. Remove those pillars entirely and mess with angles and axis placement.

...this could go for ANY speaker really.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

@ sqcomp

Thanks I appreciate that incite. I will definitely do that. If I remember correctly someone actually used a PVC tube, mounted the speakers to it, athe pipe turned a 90 degree angle and straight into the dash. Then they took and rotated the PVC pipe with the speakers in it until they got that spot they wanted. Have you ever used a technique like this. I could just hook the speakers up, but then I am getting the sound from the front and back side of the speaker. Would that give me false results.

Thanks


----------



## sqcomp

Insight is free for all my friend. No secrets needed for anyone to have great sound.

I've seen the PVC staging effort as well. I haven't applied it to my we simple because I'm working so close to the pillars. You might be able to understand why I say this. What I did was to simply wrap the speakers in a towel so I could move them more freely. Understand, I wasn't after anything besides imaging response when I was setting up my pillar placements. I found one of the locations that worked well for why I wanted to do and then I placed the baffles.

If I wanted to do the pillars over again, I might bring the L4's in toward the pills a little more and then bring them maybe up to 15 degrees more on axis...maybe. Also note that these pillars were originally modeled for the regular L4 and not the SE which has a smaller magnet.

Bring on more questions!


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

I got you and it all makes proper since. With the build of these pillers. Do you have a list of materials I would need. I have not done this in years, so getting back into this is going to take some effort and supplies. I am looking forward to the install.

I also want to place L6 in either the kickpanel or the door. What would you suggest and why?


----------



## sqcomp

List of materials...hmmm. Start with this for basics:

Glass resin, MEKp, grill cloth, a bit of glass mat, long strand filler, short strand filler, spray glue, staples, body filler...the finishing filler stuff (the name escapes me), high build primer, texture coat, spray paint, and LOTS of different grits of sandpaper.

I know I'm forgetting some things too. That should get you off to a good start.

I almost forgot about the L6's! Start off with them in a well deadened door. See how they sound. Mess with it for a few weeks and tweak your sound. I went with the L8 bcuae I'm overcompensating for a small weewee... Cue the laughter. I'm kidding of course ...I was actually doing all the purchasing from Iraq. I could probably have achieved the same results with the L6 in kicks or the doors. I just wanted to bring the biggest and baddest that Scott had at the time. Really, it's the hot rod train of thought. Biggest system in the smallest car, in my case a Toyota yaris.


----------



## RattyMcClelland

less said:


> Have many of you with the wonderful installations played with kick installations too? Comparisons? Is there much difference from car to car in how well an Apillar installatin will sound (pre-tuning)? Is there any trick to broadening the stage, minimizing the kind of brittle sound that I suspect comes from reflections, or any of the other issues? Inquiring minds and all.


In my car i found kick tweeters to be way better than pillar tweeters.
My pillars are around 1" thick and the whole upper half of the car with the glass is quite tall so when your seated your bang in the middle of all the glass thus nasty reflections. (3rd Gen Prelude).
No matter what i did i had no right drivers side images but the sound was pulled to the right (im RHD). I got tones of reflections and loads of different images that diffused the stage. Tried off axis and it didnt help.
It didnt sound bad. To me it sound good UNTIL i moved the tweeters on axis into the kicks.
They are in the upper parts of the kicks near the lower dash and i have a very deep stage now. I have right and left image ques and im not using any TA. Stage height is about the same as pillar tweeters but it can be slightly unreliable at times. 
Sound is more coherent and images better and have no issues with output.
Having a passenger doesnt block the sound as its a coupe so the low seating helps.

My mids are in the doors still and do rattle which does distract and i do hope to move the mids to the kicks in the new year.

But im my other car pillar tweeters worked well so its very car dependant.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

I appreciate that to the greatest. 

Any pics or threads about your car build?


----------



## RattyMcClelland

Huckleberry Sound said:


> I appreciate that to the greatest.
> 
> Any pics or threads about your car build?


My car. No. At the moment the L6 in the doors, are installed good, deadened and sealed but cosmetically the door cards look rubbish. 
Also since im still experimenting with tweeter positioning the L1pro SEs are held into place with wire and butyl rope. Not pretty.
But after the cold weather is passed i hope to fibreglass some kicks for the L6 and L1 SEs and deaden the whole car as currently its 20 years old and sounds 20years old. New rattles everyday. Will get pics when i come to it.


----------



## Commissionmip

MorfiusX said:


> Here's one of the two I am working on. Both are actually installed and I working to finish up the trim ring.


Hertz?


----------



## timmay77

Any advice on glue when making speaker grills? I am trying to make some for my L1, L3 a pillars. My first attempt looks like CRAP. I used 3m spray adhesive and it shows through the grill cloth. I knew there was a chance so I didn't use very much, but it still globbed through the cloth.....


----------



## kustomkaraudio

timmay77 said:


> Any advice on glue when making speaker grills? I am trying to make some for my L1, L3 a pillars. My first attempt looks like CRAP. I used 3m spray adhesive and it shows through the grill cloth. I knew there was a chance so I didn't use very much, but it still globbed through the cloth.....


Which 3m glue did you use ? I use the 77 on grill cloth all the time. The 77 comes out in a really fine mist, does not bleed through. Do a fine coat on the cloth and a fine coat on the piece to be covered, let it sit for a minute or 2 and carefully place the cloth, and you should be good to go.


----------



## timmay77

I will have to check when I get home. I can tell you what I did use WAS NOT a fine mist. It looked like elephant snot when it came out. It works just fine for doing the tweed and carpet I am used to working with though. With all of my years of car audio, it amazed me when I thought about this being my first attempt at building speaker grills.....

Thank you sir....


----------



## kustomkaraudio

timmay77 said:


> I will have to check when I get home. I can tell you what I did use WAS NOT a fine mist. It looked like elephant snot when it came out. It works just fine for doing the tweed and carpet I am used to working with though. With all of my years of car audio, it amazed me when I thought about this being my first attempt at building speaker grills.....
> 
> Thank you sir....


No problem. The " elephant snot " comment cracked me up ! Too funny.


----------



## timmay77

I was thinking that's what it looked like the whole time I was doing it........


I was using 90. I just went to Home Depot and picked up some 77? I couldn't find 70. 77 says it is fine spray......


----------



## chrisb33

here's my share guys.










danish acoustics pristiniums on galant vr-4 a pillar

chris b


----------



## subwoofery

chrisb33 said:


> here's my share guys.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> danish acoustics pristiniums on galant vr-4 a pillar
> 
> chris b


Sweeet... How do they sound? Scan-Speak like  ? 

Kelvin


----------



## duckymcse

Nice! How big is that midrange(or should I say midbass) speaker?



chrisb33 said:


> here's my share guys.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> danish acoustics pristiniums on galant vr-4 a pillar
> 
> chris b


----------



## timmay77

kustomkaraudio said:


> Which 3m glue did you use ? I use the 77 on grill cloth all the time. The 77 comes out in a really fine mist, does not bleed through. Do a fine coat on the cloth and a fine coat on the piece to be covered, let it sit for a minute or 2 and carefully place the cloth, and you should be good to go.


I just re-read your post, you SAID 77, duh, my bad. Anyway, it worked perfect! Thanks again!


----------



## fish

chrisb33 said:


> here's my share guys.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> danish acoustics pristiniums on galant vr-4 a pillar
> 
> chris b


Very nice. Would you mind taking some shots at different angles? Maybe from the sides of the speakers (would like to see the "enclosures")?


----------



## garysummers

2006 Mercedes C230 Sport


----------



## fish

garysummers said:


> 2006 Mercedes C230 Sport


That's unique. Are the extensions between the speakers & glass there to help tame reflections off the windshield?


----------



## kustomkaraudio

Yeah, the "eyebrow" and the side extension were put on to help tame some things . There is actually some dense foam under the Alcantera. The results were quite good after listening. I will be getting the car back soon to do a few more mods and recover some of the pieces.. Later , Scott


----------



## SQHemi

Those pods keep getting bigger and bigger 

Keep pushing, I am gaining on you with each show.

-Scott


----------



## kustomkaraudio

SQHemi said:


> Those pods keep getting bigger and bigger
> 
> Keep pushing, I am gaining on you with each show.
> 
> -Scott


Yeah.. It's been fun!!! I do think Gary is just a little "crazy" LOL


----------



## Lf1047

doitor said:


> I had L1v1's in the pillars, L4's in the kicks off axis and L8's in the doors.
> 
> J.


This is basically what Im planning. I have all the gear sitting and am now diagraming it all and starting install next wk. I have a 2006 F~250 Super Duty Crew Cab and Diamond Audio HEx 6" comps with the 6" mid bass add on. It seems that this combo will be best installed like this: midbass in doors, tweeter in the pillar both facing the driver, and the midrange in the kicks both facing driver. Each side will see about 300 watts via Diamind stereo amp. 

ANyone else done the same placement I would like to hear the ideas of how it worked, any suggestions that hve not yet been listed in this thread.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

sqcomp said:


> So have I:



Do you have any build pictures on this?


----------



## sqcomp

I do.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

sqcomp said:


> I do.


Is there anyway to see them. Send me a PM. I am setting to build some for my car. I have the L4 in the pillar. L6 are going in the kicks. 

I appreciate it very much...


----------



## fish

[url


----------



## chrisb33

subwoofery said:


> Sweeet... How do they sound? Scan-Speak like  ?
> 
> Kelvin


hi kelvin,

i honestly havent heard any scan speak systems yet. but you can compare the sound with seas because these are (i forget which country) designed by a company from either thailand or singapore but made by seas themselves for the asian market. 

if i can describe the sound characteristic, it's actually neutral. it can sound bad with the wrong amp, and sound great with the right one. i know this from experience. i tried using an audison lrx6.9 with this amp but it sounded tooooooo warm and flat. my eq settings were boosted in almost every frequency (using p99rs as head unit). 

i changed my amps recently and boy! sound was fantastic. sound stage became wider, tonality mids and highs are more detailed yet not harsh, in the tracks i usually listen to everyday, i noticed "attacks" and "decay" that wasnt there when i was using audisons. and the difference was immediately evident just by swapping amps. nothing was changed. not even the crossover points and the eq settings. after a few hours, we started tuning from scratch, from TA, crossover slopes, and eq. now im in sonic nirvana  happily driving through philippine traffic. hahaha.

but hey! im not saying audisons sucks coz they're great! i wouldnt have bought them in the first place if i thought they sucked. audisons just arent not a match with the danish pristiniums. 

but i think im off topic already hahaha. 

chris b


----------



## chrisb33

duckymcse said:


> Nice! How big is that midrange(or should I say midbass) speaker?


thanks duckymcse.

it's a midrange. size is 4 inch. the damn magnet is as big (if not bigger) than the midbass!

chris b


----------



## chrisb33

fish said:


> Very nice. Would you mind taking some shots at different angles? Maybe from the sides of the speakers (would like to see the "enclosures")?


hi fish,

here are some more shots of the whole build:


















i call it the grenade launcher pillars LOL









chris b


----------



## minibox

sqcomp said:


> So have I:


How is your imaging with this setup? Do you have reflection issues with them off-axis next to the windshield?


----------



## derickveliz

minibox said:


> How is your imaging with this setup? Do you have reflection issues with them off-axis next to the windshield?


I've been following Sqcomp for more than a year now, as far as I know, it's 99% perfect set up... 

That is why I'm going in the same direction.

.


----------



## dvsadvocate

subwoofery said:


> Sweeet... How do they sound? Scan-Speak like  ?
> 
> Kelvin


They should sound more like Seas since these are actually rebranded Seas Prestige drivers back here in Asia. HTH!


----------



## rape_ape

thanks to everybody for their pics. i am thinking of doing something like robolop's orbs fully active with dayton 5/8" tweets and their 2" dome mids. have peerless HDS 100wRMS midbs in the doors w 125wRMS on them


----------



## Ianarian

Active from a 4ch.. PB2.75 OEM, RF Prime 1ts


----------



## its_bacon12

Why do so many people install drivers so far off-axis? I can only think that they're trying to take advantage of reflections, but even then the angle is very poor. Some of them look between 60-90 degrees off axis.


----------



## ErinH

its_bacon12 said:


> Why do so many people install drivers so far off-axis? I can only think that they're trying to take advantage of reflections, but even then the angle is very poor. Some of them look between 60-90 degrees off axis.



Agreed. Having always previously gone off axis, I now see no benefit. My last three installs have been with drivers no more than about 15 degrees off axis. Eff reflections. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


----------



## derickveliz

its_bacon12 said:


> Why do so many people install drivers so far off-axis? I can only think that they're trying to take advantage of reflections, but even then the angle is very poor. Some of them look between 60-90 degrees off axis.


Pure Sound Quality (One seat only), and taking in consideration PLD's in your favor, using TA & EQ and trying to stay away from reflections as much as possible, installing great gear; achieving the most wonderful 3D front stage ever. I'm not saying a have a perfect set up, but I did try almost every thing in the book, check my build you'll see I had Mids on apillars almost on axis, then off axis, a big trial and error to achieve what it is now.

I have my Mids down in the kick area looking at each other, MidBass in doors, Tweeters up in a-pillars (off axis) and Sub, up front (see pictures below) 

You are not too far away from me, any time you drive up north to New England you are more than welcome to check it out for your self!

The QUOTE below comes from my build when another DIYMA asked me to listen to system. Here is the LINK to my build




Winterboy04 said:


> So i had the opportunity to check out this beast of a Yaris last Friday. Derick was kind enough to allow a complete stranger to screw around with his stereo! My intent was to hear the HAT 6.5" woofer in action (specifically in the front of the vehicle) because i have a Tacoma access cab and i will need the space where my sub is currently for a babyseat. I am no audiophile, only an aspiring car audio nut working my way up, so my explanations of what I heard could be a little “dull”, but to say the least, his car was game changing for me.
> Because he has a Yaris, he’s got a large dashboard due to the angle of the windshield, this seems to work perfectly because his imaging really puts the entire band or singer directly there in front of you. He went through the 7 drums exercise, and a couple other test tracks, but where the system seemed to shine was in the mid to mid-low sections of common songs. I was blown away by the highs, crystal clear, not bright, not piercing, just clean and vibrant. But those midranges, man were those nice. His door speakers are putting out frequencies that I have a hard time hearing from my 10” sub. At one point, he turned off the subwoofer to show the frequencies they were actually playing. That was when my car stereo plans changed. The amount of work he put into deadening and anti-rattle truly paid off, because I have never heard a car that had a range like that from the front.
> So thank you for getting to me before I blew money on a new subwoofer and amp. I know now that I need to spend some coin and time turning that truck cab into a silent chamber.
> And for anyone who is looking for impressions on that HAT subwoofer…holy crap. You would think that thing was a ten. So clean and so smooth. It still on my radar for future upgrades!
> Thanks for the opportunity Derick!



*HERE IS ONE OF MY FIRST ATTEMPTS:*











*THEN OFF AXIS:*











*AND NOW DOWN IN THE KICK AREA OFF AXIS "almost":* Shown without MDF baffle.











*AND MY SUB UP FRONT:*


----------



## ErinH

The floor, under dash, console, and seat are all reflective points as well. People often neglect that. A dash actually has less reflective areas because the middle is free space. 
Hardly any cars come without a center console. Much less a driver to add more to the reflections. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


----------



## its_bacon12

I am curious to how that sounds good with the tweeter 90 degrees off axis. That's a heck of an install but I can't for the life of me see how that left side doesn't have a huge vacuum in the upper octave(s). I understand that some tweeters have a lifted top end or whatever it might be, but that's what EQ is for.

Also, call me crazy but I don't see the huge benefit to TA in such a small area [flame suit on]. I did play around with TA before and noticed a difference in how it sounded but it was a very minute difference. Level matching was all it took for me to be satisfied. Then again I understand the severe handicap that an auto environment has on audio so I couldn't really care to be a perfectionist in it.


----------



## derickveliz

bikinpunk said:


> The floor, under dash, console, and seat are all reflective points as well. People often neglect that. A dash actually has less reflective areas because the middle is free space.
> Hardly any cars come without a center console. Much less a driver to add more to the reflections. Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


Please don't take me wrong...(my English it's not perfect LOL) I didn't say there are less reflections down there, but opposite to "its_bacon12" commented about taking advantage of reflections.

I agree reflections are all over the place in a vehicle! 

To achieve a good image the center console is not a problem, or driver, the most important is to have your point source as far forward as possible but *keep eye contact with each speaker at the same time*; that's the key using PLD's in your favor.

D.


----------



## derickveliz

its_bacon12 said:


> I am curious to how that sounds good with the tweeter 90 degrees off axis. That's a heck of an install but I can't for the life of me see how that left side doesn't have a huge vacuum in the upper octave(s). I understand that some tweeters have a lifted top end or whatever it might be, but that's what EQ is for.
> 
> Also, call me crazy but I don't see the huge benefit to TA in such a small area [flame suit on]. I did play around with TA before and noticed a difference in how it sounded but it was a very minute difference. Level matching was all it took for me to be satisfied. Then again I understand the severe handicap that an auto environment has on audio so I couldn't really care to be a perfectionist in it.


Thank you,
Like I said before, any time you are more than welcome to hear my system.

I don't blame you about TA, took me almost a year to figure it out how it works and now I can modify it the way I want it. Honestly I'm so impressed how music sounds so different in 3D.

D.


----------



## subwoofery

its_bacon12 said:


> I am curious to how that sounds good with the tweeter 90 degrees off axis. That's a heck of an install but I can't for the life of me see how that left side doesn't have a huge vacuum in the upper octave(s). I understand that some tweeters have a lifted top end or whatever it might be, but that's what EQ is for.
> Using a driver off-axis on the closest side and closer to on-axis on the other side is a way to have levels matched. Unless you can minimize PLD (for tweeters), the closest tweeters will always sound louder than the other.
> That's why people tend to crossfire tweeters - it's a poor-man's-EQ
> Also twice the distance is equivalent to -6dB...
> 
> Also, call me crazy but I don't see the huge benefit to TA in such a small area [flame suit on]. I did play around with TA before and noticed a difference in how it sounded but it was a very minute difference. Level matching was all it took for me to be satisfied. Then again I understand the severe handicap that an auto environment has on audio so I couldn't really care to be a perfectionist in it.
> Think you should play with it more than coz everytime I add 0.1ms, I can hear all kind of phase problems. Everytime I click, phase changes to another band of freqs until... you're SPOT ON - then it's HEAVEN
> 1 feet difference is 180° out of phase for a range of freqs


Kelvin


----------



## its_bacon12

subwoofery said:


> Using a driver off-axis on the closest side and closer to on-axis on the other side is a way to have levels matched. Unless you can minimize PLD (for tweeters), the closest tweeters will always sound louder than the other.
> That's why people tend to crossfire tweeters - it's a poor-man's-EQ
> Also twice the distance is equivalent to -6dB...
> 
> Think you should play with it more than coz everytime I add 0.1ms, I can hear all kind of phase problems. Everytime I click, phase changes to another band of freqs until... you're SPOT ON - then it's HEAVEN
> 1 feet difference is 180° out of phase for a range of freqs
> 
> Kelvin


I get that it will do something to the effect of level matching but you'd give up the on-axis performance for a drop in level? Why not just pad it with a 2 ohm resistor (or whatever it might be) and not lose the FR? 

As for time alignment, I will have the processing power in my next install for it but a car's environment is so screwed up anyway that you will have enormous constructive and destructive interference via phase by reflections no matter what - just the nature of the beast. I really don't think it's going to do much for me, it never has even when I calculated delay mathematically. It's just a preference of what frequency range you prefer to be least affected.


----------



## subwoofery

its_bacon12 said:


> I get that it will do something to the effect of level matching but you'd give up the on-axis performance for a drop in level? Why not just pad it with a 2 ohm resistor (or whatever it might be) and not lose the FR?
> 
> As for time alignment, I will have the processing power in my next install for it but a car's environment is so screwed up anyway that you will have enormous constructive and destructive interference via phase by reflections no matter what - just the nature of the beast. I really don't think it's going to do much for me, it never has even when I calculated delay mathematically. It's just a preference of what frequency range you prefer to be least affected.


Took me some time to find the post I needed but I have it  

I'd first like to ask what you mean by "on-axis performance"? 
Coz in my opinion, high frequencies sounds more pleasing and more natural with a gentle descending slope - which you don't get 99% of the time on-axis. 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/925170-post82.html 

Andy Wehmeyer did post (though I can't find it) that having a limited number of listeners and have them listen to different sets of speakers - the one set with the descending high frequencies gets the most vote as sounding more natural and less fatiguing... 

If you don't like the gentle descending slope and prefer the flat flat response, then you can still go off-axis... just choose a tweeter that has a rising response (above 12kHz) on-axis. 

Good info here too regarding on and off axis: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/75121-best-way-get-proper-imaging-midrange.html 

Again, using tweeters off-axis is a way to "equilize" levels. I don't have a separate L/R EQ in my car and don't feel the need for it (my waveguides might help too ) 
Off-axis tweeters become even more important for 2-seat tuning and judging. 

Kelvin 

PS: the 2 ohm resistor doesn't do the same thing as off-axis since it drops the level of the entire driver when I just need the very high-end to be padded...


----------



## ErinH

comb filtering is a b1tch! why anyone would introduce more of it is beyond me. no, you can't do it creatively either. the trade off is... more nulls and peaks in response that cannot be remedied because it's relative to your listening position. 
so, while you may indeed have better luck getting overall levels to be more matched this way, the frequency response is going to suffer tremendously and the issues you bring in to the install will never outweigh the ones that you remove. 

and, yes, some people have had good luck with it. but that doesn't mean it's the best way. i can cut my lawn with scissors and get the job done, but it isn't anywhere near as effective or efficient as using a lawnmower.


----------



## subwoofery

bikinpunk said:


> comb filtering is a b1tch! why anyone would introduce more of it is beyond me. no, you can't do it creatively either. the trade off is... more nulls and peaks in response that cannot be remedied because it's relative to your listening position.
> so, while you may indeed have better luck getting overall levels to be more matched this way, the frequency response is going to suffer tremendously and the issues you bring in to the install will never outweigh the ones that you remove.
> 
> and, yes, some people have had good luck with it. but that doesn't mean it's the best way. i can cut my lawn with scissors and get the job done, but it isn't anywhere near as effective or efficient as using a lawnmower.


Searched about it a long time ago and the answer wasn't clear... Some said that if you hear it once, you'll remember forever, others said that it wasn't that big of a problem since the ear and brain filters all the nonsense from combing... 
I did watch a video explaining comb filtering and how studio recordings use it to give some effects to music tracks - however it seems like it is not exactly the same comb filtering that happens when the original sound is getting a constructive and destructive interference with its delayed signal. 

Erin, can you hear it? Unless I'm mistaken, on-axis also creates reflections strong enough to create comb filtering since most of the time (almost always) the listener is close to a glass (in a car). Why is comb filtering lessened when on-axis. Might have left that part behind when I was reading on it lol 

Kelvin


----------



## ErinH

yes, I certainly can. most everyone can if they listen. it shows up in the most often complained about aspects of soundstage.... "wander". ie: my stage wanders. I can't get the singer to focus up. they wander to the side. this is a prime downfall due to comb filtering. 
every try to fix that via t/a and find that while you can get one aspect right, something else falls on its face? that's comb filtering. 
ever have a specific frequency that kills you no matter what you do and you have to cut the crap out of it? comb filtering (constructive interferance).
you'll never be able to fill in a null. 
move your head to the side and hear something change? comb filtering.

the best luck I've had is using an on-axis install. the further away I get from that the more issues I have in the FR/time domain.

not only that, but the stage is more narrow because a driver begins to beam at some frequency*. this creates nulls (lobing) in the sound field and is why getting crossover points correct is so crucial. 

*the flip side of this is directivity that creates less reflections, but no one is running a 10" midrange so that it's beaming in a passband above some nominal frequency and not reflecting off everything around it. for instance, if you wanted to build a system that was great in the direct field but had very little reflection off the side (ie: poor polar) above 500hz (where I often notice the frequency response being driven by the environment and no longer simply pressure based due to wavelength, and therefore where you see more issues with comb filtering arise), you'd need a driver that's about 13.5" in diameter. This is where it starts to beam. no one is using a 13.5" driver as a midrange. it's an interesting idea, though, and one that's kicked around in my head for a while. I'll let someone else figure out the logistics of that...


all in all, with all the dsp options available today and the information on how to build a passive network, I see no reason to use an off axis install. there's no benefit other than (maybe) the ability to squeeze a larger driver on your dash. but, t hen, at what cost? I'd rather go with a smaller driver on axis than a large one off axis.


----------



## ErinH

subwoofery said:


> Erin, can you hear it? Unless I'm mistaken, on-axis also creates reflections strong enough to create comb filtering since most of the time (almost always) the listener is close to a glass (in a car). Why is comb filtering lessened when on-axis. Might have left that part behind when I was reading on it lol
> 
> Kelvin


I am absolutely not an expert. I'm just going off what I've learned from reading and experimentation. So, that said, on axis has the following advantages, to me:

the radiating area has more free space to radiate in to. it's akin to taking your home speakers and putting them in the corners. point them on axis. then point them toward the back wall. notice the difference? not only is the sound level lessened by a declining polar response, you're getting reflections of the source firing right back at it. the cancellation here is higher than when the driver has a free-er space to radiate in to. this makes for a much more diffuse sound field. something that we try to get away from. obviously a diffuse sound field makes the playback system sound less accurate, but it's much harder to correct for as well. we all lean on dsp and we can do a lot. but there's some things that simply cannot be corrected via dsp.
reflectivity vs directivity. I've mentioned in a couple different threads the relationship between the direct source and the reflective environment. there's research out there (Geddes, and Toole are two I recall) that shows the relationship of these two to spaciousness. This includes depth, width, and the sense of a broad soundstage. You guys might actually remember Earl Zausman's BMW touting this kind of install and I know he actually mentioned the direct field being a prime benefit of that install; it's nothing new.
something that should also be considered is the true dipole nature of a driver. the figure 8 pattern, if you will, and how that relates to the varying angles of an install. 
also worth noting, and something that seems to go unnoticed, is the relationship between the angling of a driver toward the passenger. Not only is the axis of a driver relative to the listener on the X/Z axis important, but the Y axis as well. This means that drivers located in the kicks, pointed at the listener will sound different than drivers in the kicks pointed at the console. Sound is not 2 dimensional. 

Remember that every reflection is another point source. The fewer of these you have, the easier a system is to manage. In some cases, this can be used to your benefit, but I've not seen anyone claiming to do this who I think has actually done it.


----------



## subwoofery

bikinpunk said:


> I am absolutely not an expert. I'm just going off what I've learned from reading and experimentation. So, that said, on axis has the following advantages, to me:
> 
> the radiating area has more free space to radiate in to. it's akin to taking your home speakers and putting them in the corners. point them on axis. then point them toward the back wall. notice the difference? not only is the sound level lessened by a declining polar response, you're getting reflections of the source firing right back at it. the cancellation here is higher than when the driver has a free-er space to radiate in to. this makes for a much more diffuse sound field. something that we try to get away from. obviously a diffuse sound field makes the playback system sound less accurate, but it's much harder to correct for as well. we all lean on dsp and we can do a lot. but there's some things that simply cannot be corrected via dsp.
> reflectivity vs directivity. I've mentioned in a couple different threads the relationship between the direct source and the reflective environment. there's research out there (Geddes, and Toole are two I recall) that shows the relationship of these two to spaciousness. This includes depth, width, and the sense of a broad soundstage. You guys might actually remember Earl Zausman's BMW touting this kind of install and I know he actually mentioned the direct field being a prime benefit of that install; it's nothing new.
> something that should also be considered is the true dipole nature of a driver. the figure 8 pattern, if you will, and how that relates to the varying angles of an install.
> also worth noting, and something that seems to go unnoticed, is the relationship between the angling of a driver toward the passenger. Not only is the axis of a driver relative to the listener on the X/Z axis important, but the Y axis as well. This means that drivers located in the kicks, pointed at the listener will sound different than drivers in the kicks pointed at the console. Sound is not 2 dimensional.
> 
> Remember that every reflection is another point source. The fewer of these you have, the easier a system is to manage. In some cases, this can be used to your benefit, but I've not seen anyone claiming to do this who I think has actually done it.


You have some very valid points and no way of contradicting those so I'm gonna agree  

I do believe that you can achieve great stereo by either spreading the chaos or by controlling directivity (as per Andy Wehmeyer). 
I'm using 2 drivers that control directivity: horns in one car, and Focal TN52 in my other car... I can assure you that the TN52 doesn't sound good on-axis. I tried all kind of combination and axis. The small lobes on the face of the grill makes the sound spread wider horizontally. Best orientation I've found was the tweeter perpendicular to the windshield with the lobes facing the windshield. 
I remember Andy saying that in order to minimize reflection (higher up), best way is to put the tweeter flat on a plane. Flat on the windshield is not really possible... Flat on the dash reflecting off the windshield and some off the side windows - tried that, didn't like... Flat in the sails or high in doors is possible - combine with my TN52, seems like a win-win situation... 
Soundjunkie is using a tweeter even more suited for the job and designed to have the lobes flat against the windshield... The Focal TLR. 

Guess I should try a dome tweeter instead of a metallic kind for on-axis install. 

Keep talking about tweeters and I forgot that this thread was about mids & pillars :blush:

Kelvin


----------



## its_bacon12

OT: Interesting quote in your sig Subwoofery.


----------



## subwoofery

its_bacon12 said:


> OT: Interesting quote in your sig Subwoofery.


Thanks  

It's my Trojan Horse for when I want to mess with people's belief lol 

Kelvin


----------



## Nocturnus

I've been debating a pillar install. I'm looking to move to 3 way setup, but i don't think I could do anything stealth by putting a mid/tweet on the pillar or dash in my Malibu. I guess it's time to sit down for a few hours and just look at my dash.


----------



## Kicker

Im a total novice when it comes to 3 way front end set ups ,so please be gentle and understanding when you reply .
Ive got a VW Transporter (1998 van) and i have some crystal Audio cscs643 speakers i would love to fit into it .
Im going to build a sealed pod in the doors for the 6.5" mid bass speakers and want the mids and tweeters on the A pillars/dash ..
I need guidance to where i should be looking to aim my mids and tweeters .
I see some people aiming the across the dash at each other ,while others have them more on axis .
Please can some one enlighten me ...

If anyone has the data sheet to go with these speakers please pm me ...

Thank you in advance ...


----------



## cerrone

Hello guys.
Having nothing to do yesterday I found an rain pipe element that can hold veeery nice my DLS UR2.5 midrange. 

After playing with it here is a pics of the rough product. 
http://inlinethumb26.webshots.com/51481/2729921680065891490S500x500Q85.jpg
http://inlinethumb33.webshots.com/50656/2044938660065891490S600x600Q85.jpg









Trying to fit the tweeters as well :laugh:
http://inlinethumb58.webshots.com/48569/2112940430065891490S600x600Q85.jpg
http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/48427/2656583980065891490S600x600Q85.jpg
http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/51246/2705050280065891490S600x600Q85.jpg

How it stays on the dash









Cutting its back part I manage to turn it more on-axis 









The idea is to blend it with the A-pillar along with the tweeter... or I can leave the tweeters in their stock locations - the hole beneath the midrange on the dash is the place where they reside - they aim at the windscreen.
If I choose the first option… well, I haven't decided what the tweeter shape should look like, but my fantasy led me to the kitchen corner of a shop where I found ...can you guess what the yellow thing at the back is? 










So, what do you think about the project so far? 

I'm aware that the front part of the rain pipe needs to be trimmed down to the level of the speaker baffle, but what if I leave it a bit wider? Will it obstruct the sound much? :ears:


----------



## HondAudio

cerrone said:


> The idea is to blend it with the A-pillar along with the tweeter... or I can leave the tweeters in their stock locations - the hole beneath the midrange on the dash is the place where they reside - they aim at the windscreen.
> If I choose the first option… well, I haven't decided what the tweeter shape should look like, but my fantasy led me to the kitchen corner of a shop where I found ...can you guess what the yellow thing at the back is?


It's the "business end" of an orange-juicing machine


----------



## BlackCSVT

how did the juicer turn out?


----------



## adriancp

I've read so many posts about dash or A-pillar pods being a pain in the butt or only suitable for single seat tuning. I have never heard this setup but am strongly looking at it for my next install I'm starting soon. In the past I used kick panel pods and loved that in my cars but now I have a 2011 Dodge Ram. Between the height of the cabin and the center console obstructions, I think I need to lean towards the dash for my mids and highs. I will not be competing at all, I just want a strong solid stage. I'm not looking for perfection, just really clean and balanced for both front seats. 

My setup will consist of mid bass in the factory door locations and HAT L3's and HAT Clarus tweeters. 

I would love any advice from you guys! 

Thank you


----------



## Thrill_House

Here the setup I currently run in my competition vehicle, its a 2002 civic and Im running a complete DLS front stage, Scandinavia 3c midrange, Nordica 1 tweet and Gothia 6 Midbass in the doors.


----------



## derickveliz

adriancp said:


> I've read so many posts about dash or A-pillar pods being a pain in the butt or only suitable for single seat tuning. I have never heard this setup but am strongly looking at it for my next install I'm starting soon. In the past I used kick panel pods and loved that in my cars but now I have a 2011 Dodge Ram. Between the height of the cabin and the center console obstructions, I think I need to lean towards the dash for my mids and highs. I will not be competing at all, I just want a strong solid stage. I'm not looking for perfection, just really clean and balanced for both front seats.
> 
> My setup will consist of mid bass in the factory door locations and HAT L3's and HAT Clarus tweeters.
> 
> I would love any advice from you guys!
> 
> Thank you




*From my experience:*

Mids in kick panels work really good for SQ front stage for single seat, pilot in my case.

The height of the cabin may be an issue but not as bad 

Center console obstruction? no that is not true, it's Ok if the Mids can't see each other, what matters is the direct path between Left Mid and your Left ear and the same for Right Mid and your Right ear, both sides require an unobstructed path to your ears.

When I had my Mids up in the a-pillars my stage was narrower (sure the distance between speakers it's smaller, easy to figure out the lack of width)

I know you are not competing, I also know that I don't have experience with 2 seat tuning! ... 

I had the opportunity to create a Solid Stage with Mids up in the A-pillars and the Mids down in the kick area, where the Pilot side is the sweet spot, been the last set up the best for my taste with a wider and deeper stage.

_"I would love any advice from you guys!" _ I would say try to keep your speakers as further away from you and as far apart from each other. Check your PLD's! the smaller the number the better.

I hope it helps.

.


----------



## n_olympios

derickveliz said:


> Center console obstruction? no that is not true, it's Ok if the Mids can't see each other, what matters is the direct path between Left Mid and your Left ear and the same for Right Mid and your Right ear, both sides require an unobstructed path to your ears.


True, but this is also highly car-dependant.


----------



## elparner

adriancp said:


> I've read so many posts about dash or A-pillar pods being a pain in the butt or only suitable for single seat tuning. I have never heard this setup but am strongly looking at it for my next install I'm starting soon. In the past I used kick panel pods and loved that in my cars but now I have a 2011 Dodge Ram. Between the height of the cabin and the center console obstructions, I think I need to lean towards the dash for my mids and highs. I will not be competing at all, I just want a strong solid stage. I'm not looking for perfection, just really clean and balanced for both front seats.
> 
> My setup will consist of mid bass in the factory door locations and HAT L3's and HAT Clarus tweeters.
> 
> I would love any advice from you guys!
> 
> Thank you


I also have a ram 

Midbass in door location also, mid and twt in kicks, soundstage is decent for both sides


----------



## derickveliz

n_olympios said:


> True, but this is also highly car-dependant.


Please expand and if possible give us some examples so we can learn.

.


----------



## papasin

n_olympios said:


> True, but this is also highly car-dependant.





derickveliz said:


> Please expand and if possible give us some examples so we can learn.
> 
> .


I would add also being seating position dependent. For my driving position in a Civic SI, kicks do not work unless my seat is all the way back. But with my height, if my seat was all the way back, then I wouldn't be able to reach the clutch (or any of the pedals for that matter) .


----------



## ErinH

I don't like kicks for midranges for a few reasons. But what I've done in my car may not be feasible for others. Trade offs.


----------



## n_olympios

derickveliz said:


> Please expand and if possible give us some examples so we can learn.
> 
> .


Different console height and design, different angling and positioning of the mids, different footwell shape and size, different materials, all of these add their own contributions to changes in the sound. And of course, as mentioned by papasin, relative listening position (mainly height and distance).


----------



## derickveliz

bikinpunk said:


> I don't like kicks for midranges for a few reasons. But what I've done in my car may not be feasible for others. Trade offs.


*Why?

and lets see!*

...


----------



## derickveliz

n_olympios said:


> Different console height and design, different angling and positioning of the mids, different footwell shape and size, different materials, all of these add their own contributions to changes in the sound. And of course, as mentioned by papasin, relative listening position (mainly height and distance).


*I agree 100%, not all cars are designed equal and then the "user" factor... 

I read somewhere... "SQ is not for everybody"*

I guess that is one of the reasons Car-Audio is so difficult!

.


----------



## subwoofery

Due to the high driving position of most trucks, I think that midanges in kicks can't work well (I said midrange not midbass  Horns doesn't work optimally if used as far wide as possible either 
In trucks, midrange in doors (low or high), in pillars or on the dash is a better location IMO. 

So I think that it really depends on the driving position (front to back and low to high too)

Kelvin


----------



## HondAudio

subwoofery said:


> Due to the high driving position of most trucks, I think that midanges in kicks can't work well (I said midrange not midbass  Horns doesn't work optimally if used as far wide as possible either
> In trucks, midrange in doors (low or high), in pillars or on the dash is a better location IMO.
> 
> So I think that it really depends on the driving position (front to back and low to high too)
> 
> Kelvin


This is why I never really pursued kickpanels in my 2006 Scion xB. The driving position is [I feel] more "truck-like" than a sedan or coupe, and even though Q-Logic makes prefabricated kickpanels I could have used as a starting point, I didn't want to reduce the already-scant legroom. I'm 5'8" but the legroom is tighter than my old 1989 Civic.

Door-mounted midbasses and dash-mounted midranges it is!


----------



## adriancp

I really appreciate all the words of wisdom, and I know in the end all that matters is if I like it. I'm probably overly concerned about trying to get it right the first time. I just have so little time to work on anything, my truck is used for work, I'm usually in it 5 to 7 hours a day, so down time is a major issue. 

I've decided to go ahead with the dash install, now new questions arise. I realize that most of you tune for a single sweet spot for competition, I just want to get it nice and solid for both front seats.

So.....to equal out both sides... Would you guys recommend....
1. Both mid and tweet firing up into the windshield from the factory spots
2. Mids in factory spots firing up, tweeters in sail panels cross firing to equal out PLD's
3. Dash pods with both mid and tweet cross firing at opposite side seat
4. ??????

Love the input guys


----------



## derickveliz

adriancp said:


> I really appreciate all the words of wisdom, and I know in the end all that matters is if I like it. I'm probably overly concerned about trying to get it right the first time. I just have so little time to work on anything, my truck is used for work, I'm usually in it 5 to 7 hours a day, so down time is a major issue.
> 
> I've decided to go ahead with the dash install, now new questions arise. I realize that most of you tune for a single sweet spot for competition, I just want to get it nice and solid for both front seats.
> 
> So.....to equal out both sides... Would you guys recommend....
> 1. Both mid and tweet firing up into the windshield from the factory spots
> 2. Mids in factory spots firing up, tweeters in sail panels cross firing to equal out PLD's
> 3. Dash pods with both mid and tweet cross firing at opposite side seat
> 4. ??????
> 
> Love the input guys



If you define better what you mean with Solid may help getting you the best solution.

I don't know if you are going to use a sound processor or not, I'm guessing you are not.. correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm assuming your goal is not a Front-Stage set up, and that you don't care for center image or I feel like you just don't realize about it, thoughts?

*I would go for # "2" for simplicity and good sound (width and depth)*, ...now _"tweeters in sail panels cross firing to equal out PLD's"_ I get the feeling that you don't know what PLD stands for and what benefits you could get with a smaller PLD, but don't worry, we are here to help.




*I'm sorry if I'm going out of topic here, but we are learning here, so here is my simple way explaining what Sound Stage means to me. 
*

*Lets start with PLDs...*
This is how PLDs work in my car, the example is on the Mids in kick area, the idea is you measure from left speaker to left ear, right speaker to right ear, then do the math. Do this in different positions, the smaller the result the better.














*Now when I was starting into this hobby I never understood what center image was,* I came up with this little exercise at home that you can try it too. This will help you to find that center image every body talks about:

Photo 1: Try to recreate the scene at home, the idea is that you stand right in the middle of the speakers, play a few songs of your choice.

Photo 2: You will feel that there is a 3rd speaker just above your head, like a phantom! that is the center image; most of the time would be the singer.

Give it a try!






















*Now the problem is when you are not in the center of the speakers (in our cars) so to recreate that phantom (center image) right in the center of your car from the Pilot side we try to work it out mechanically (smaller PLDs) then Time Alignment and Left+Right Equalization. The end result is a 3D-mentional feeling of each track, is like been at a concert or live music at a cafe, where you can tell where is the singer (most of the time in the center AKA center-image) where is the Piano, the guitar, etc; and you can even feel how big or small is the room. When you accomplish this you can say that you have a Solid Sound-Stage. * see image below:











So I know your goal is good sound for both (pilot and passenger) and you do not have plans for competing, that is why I pic option # 2, *but it's your install and you are the boss, it's up to you!*

.
.


----------



## Mic10is

derickveliz said:


> *Now the problem is when you are not in the center of the speakers (in our cars) so to recreate that phantom (center image) right in the center of your car from the Pilot side we try to work it out mechanically (smaller PLDs) then Time Alignment and Left+Right Equalization. The end result is a 3D-mentional feeling of each track, is like been at a concert or live music at a cafe, where you can tell where is the singer (most of the time in the center AKA center-image) where is the Piano, the guitar, etc; and you can even feel how big or small is the room. When you accomplish this you can say that you have a Solid Sound-Stage. * see image below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> .




center is slightly right of center and typically the Drum Kit would be located behind the center vocalist--odd placement for a drum kit at RC instead of C.


----------



## adriancp

I appreciate the tips! And I am familiar with path length differences, I guess I just used the term out of context. I'm pretty sure I've made my decision which route I'm going.


----------



## xtremevette

I tried like hell but just didn't have the room in the vette. Ended up in the dash.


----------



## huggy54

lovely picks of a-pillars, I think I'll go with them instead of mids in my kicks now


----------



## bigbubba

Fixin' to attempt my first a-pillar build so I'm marking this thread for inspiration.


----------



## edouble101

derickveliz said:


> If you define better what you mean with Solid may help getting you the best solution.
> 
> I don't know if you are going to use a sound processor or not, I'm guessing you are not.. correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> I'm assuming your goal is not a Front-Stage set up, and that you don't care for center image or I feel like you just don't realize about it, thoughts?
> 
> *I would go for # "2" for simplicity and good sound (width and depth)*, ...now _"tweeters in sail panels cross firing to equal out PLD's"_ I get the feeling that you don't know what PLD stands for and what benefits you could get with a smaller PLD, but don't worry, we are here to help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I'm sorry if I'm going out of topic here, but we are learning here, so here is my simple way explaining what Sound Stage means to me.
> *
> 
> *Lets start with PLDs...*
> This is how PLDs work in my car, the example is on the Mids in kick area, the idea is you measure from left speaker to left ear, right speaker to right ear, then do the math. Do this in different positions, the smaller the result the better.
> 
> 
> *Now when I was starting into this hobby I never understood what center image was,* I came up with this little exercise at home that you can try it too. This will help you to find that center image every body talks about:
> 
> Photo 1: Try to recreate the scene at home, the idea is that you stand right in the middle of the speakers, play a few songs of your choice.
> 
> Photo 2: You will feel that there is a 3rd speaker just above your head, like a phantom! that is the center image; most of the time would be the singer.
> 
> Give it a try!
> 
> 
> *Now the problem is when you are not in the center of the speakers (in our cars) so to recreate that phantom (center image) right in the center of your car from the Pilot side we try to work it out mechanically (smaller PLDs) then Time Alignment and Left+Right Equalization. The end result is a 3D-mentional feeling of each track, is like been at a concert or live music at a cafe, where you can tell where is the singer (most of the time in the center AKA center-image) where is the Piano, the guitar, etc; and you can even feel how big or small is the room. When you accomplish this you can say that you have a Solid Sound-Stage. * see image below:
> 
> So I know your goal is good sound for both (pilot and passenger) and you do not have plans for competing, that is why I pic option # 2, *but it's your install and you are the boss, it's up to you!*
> 
> .
> .


I love your enthusiasm! Nice little write-up.


----------



## edouble101

I just finished up my a-pillar rebuild


----------



## kidlat

My share



















Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## robert_wrath

Kidlat, are you able to provide a Rear Seat Photo depicted here:


----------



## n_olympios




----------



## Golden Ear

I was considering installing my dynaudio midrange domes in pillars first then changed to kicks but after Subwooferys post above now I'm not so sure. Does anyone have experience with this setup in a f250 crew cab? I'd love to do it only once (don't we all). Rainbow tweets will be going in the sails and Dayton rs180s in the doors, P99rs headunit and Zapco z-150.6 amp. Thanks in advance!


----------



## co_leonard

Golden Ear said:


> I was considering installing my dynaudio midrange domes in pillars first then changed to kicks but after Subwooferys post above now I'm not so sure. Does anyone have experience with this setup in a f250 crew cab? I'd love to do it only once (don't we all). Rainbow tweets will be going in the sails and Dayton rs180s in the doors, P99rs headunit and Zapco z-150.6 amp. Thanks in advance!


I believe the Dynaudio midrange dome has a sealed back? In that case, no need to provide an enclosure behind it. Just put the tweeter on top of and as close to the midrange as you can and see if you can align them on the same "plane" as much as possible. Meaning the tweeter is not significantly closer to you compared to the midrange.


----------



## n_olympios

Them being domes, due to their usually low sensitivity and lowish output, I'd suggest putting them as high up as you can - certainly not in the kicks of an F250.


----------



## papasin

Audible Physics Nz3-A/AT combo with the magic of jtaudioacc


----------



## edouble101

papasin said:


> Audible Physics Nz3-A/AT combo with the magic of jtaudioacc


How do you like those Audible Physics drivers? If you want to PM me your critique that would be great too


----------



## Golden Ear

Thanx for the advice guys. How about in the doors close to the dayton? Its off axis but will the p99 help with that?


----------



## Bluenote

papasin said:


> Audible Physics Nz3-A/AT combo with the magic of jtaudioacc


Very nice! Hopefully I'll get to audition those very soon. 
Very clean...


----------



## BigRed

Golden Ear said:


> I was considering installing my dynaudio midrange domes in pillars first then changed to kicks but after Subwooferys post above now I'm not so sure. Does anyone have experience with this setup in a f250 crew cab? I'd love to do it only once (don't we all). Rainbow tweets will be going in the sails and Dayton rs180s in the doors, P99rs headunit and Zapco z-150.6 amp. Thanks in advance!


I wouldn't recommend putting them in the kicks. U sit too high. I had the same drivers in the kicks and it was difficult to get dialed in

Considering u can't cross them over very low I would suggest putting them in as close to the mid bass as u can


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## Golden Ear

Thanks BigRed! I have a few questions for you seeing as you are a truck guy also. Mind if I pm?


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## subwoofery

BigRed said:


> I wouldn't recommend putting them in the kicks. U sit too high. I had the same drivers in the kicks and it was difficult to get dialed in
> 
> Considering u can't cross them over very low I would suggest putting them in as close to the mid bass as u can


Interesting... I thought that it would be better closer to the tweeter - could you please explain why it is better to install the dome mid closer to the midbass? (Dayton low in door so dome mid just above that I guess) 
So the higher you HP the mid, the closer it needs to be to the midbass, correct? 

Kelvin


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## Fricasseekid

Lot of good info in this thread! Thanks gents.


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## SmallSoldier

n_olympios said:


> Them being domes, due to their usually low sensitivity and lowish output, I'd suggest putting them as high up as you can - certainly not in the kicks of an F250.


Could you please elaborate? I will be using the 142's and the intention is to place it in kicks... I thought that their dispersion pattern would actually help them in a kick panel configuration

Thanks!


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## BigRed

Golden Ear said:


> Thanks BigRed! I have a few questions for you seeing as you are a truck guy also. Mind if I pm?


no problem!


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## papasin

edouble101 said:


> How do you like those Audible Physics drivers? If you want to PM me your critique that would be great too


I used the previous AP drivers (the XR3s) for over a year in my previous build and was already quite impressed with the XR3s.

Don't get me wrong, I love the XR3s and will be keeping them for another car...but the Nz3s have more detail in the top-end paired with the ATs vs. the XR3s. Upper mid-range, they are about equivalent. Lower-midrange, the XR3s get the nod (if you've never seen the magnet of the XR/AR, take a look and you can see the beef). But with my current build, I am also running the Arians which have incredible resolution and paired with the Nz3s make for an impressive combo..

But don't just take my word for it. Check with others on the forum that have much more run-time with the Nz3s...say the 2012 MECA Modified World champion for example with the same front stage .


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## n_olympios

SmallSoldier said:


> Could you please elaborate? I will be using the 142's and the intention is to place it in kicks... I thought that their dispersion pattern would actually help them in a kick panel configuration
> 
> Thanks!


This is easy to answer really. They're not that efficient, hence they don't play loud enough, hence not really suitable for kicks as the distance is bigger. Better use the kicks for midbass drivers and install the mids close to the tweeters, up high.


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## MantaOwner

elparner said:


> I also have a ram
> 
> Midbass in door location also, mid and twt in kicks, soundstage is decent for both sides


It seems like your tweeters are facing each other more or less and mids too, how do you get a decent soundstage like that?

Tõnu


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## SQ Audi

Those particular speakers work very well off axis.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## Golden Ear

txwrxwagon2 said:


> I know... post from 2010... there is method to my madness....
> 
> The vehement "opinion" that a "kick panel" sounds measurably "better" than an "a-pillar array"... however one would label the different install/loading schemes: its like arguing that a given shade of Blue or Red is better.
> 
> Tuning and install is what MAKES this hobby/competition so great...
> 
> Too bad today, 2015, 90% of the members don't even undertand what the F* any of this means....
> 
> ~R.


As of right now all I see is madness in what you're doing. Why insult 90% of the members here? What did they do to you? They're probably just trying to learn something.


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## brumledb

txwrxwagon2 said:


> I know... post from 2010... there is method to my madness....
> 
> The vehement "opinion" that a "kick panel" sounds measurably "better" than an "a-pillar array"... however one would label the different install/loading schemes: its like arguing that a given shade of Blue or Red is better.
> 
> Tuning and install is what MAKES this hobby/competition so great...
> 
> Too bad today, 2015, 90% of the members don't even undertand what the F* any of this means....
> 
> ~R.


Since you just joined, how do you presume to know what 90% of members do and don't know?


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## Epiman500

A pillars


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## SO20thCentury

bump to keepum coming


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## SO20thCentury

🥴Doh! my search terms didn't show this first








Show off your midrange/tweet a-pillars!


So I am planning on going a different route now, with midbass in the kicks and the midrange/tweet in the pillars. Just trying to get some ideas. Show me what you got!! So far loving minibox's pillars... thank you!!




www.diymobileaudio.com


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