# What to do with these Audiophile subs?



## Buickmike (Aug 10, 2012)

So I'm rethinking my setup in the trunk of my Buick GN. I have a pair of RFA-104's facing backwards. They are in 1.2 ft ported enclosures, but it actually sounds better with the ports blocked. Bass is pretty muddy, however just about anything I throw in the trunk sounds that way. I've had hatchbacks for so long that I really don't like hearing bass from the trunk.

So now I'm thinking I can try the following:

Keep the Audiophiles, face them and the ports forward and block the trunk.

Sell them and use the money towards other subs that either work good in infinite baffle or do a 4th order ported into the rear deck. I'm partial to JL W0 or W1 series in 4th order.

Thoughts?


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

15s infinite baffle


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## vwguy383 (Dec 4, 2008)

Wait. So the subs are facing the rear but the ports are facing the front of the car? If that is right then I think that's your problem. I don't think you can have the ports on the back side of the box. It's is the one side you can't do. Unless there is a 90 degree curve in your port. Don't know to much about it and why it is. But I'm pretty sure someone smarter then me could tell you.

I would keep the subs. Just figure or the box.

Thanks
Justin


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## ccapil (Jun 1, 2013)

I would keep them and design a 4th order enclosure for them, they are wonderful subs. Even try sealed.


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## Buickmike (Aug 10, 2012)

edzyy said:


> 15s infinite baffle


Go Richard Clark style, huh? 15's are overkill for me. I have a JBL 1000GTi and I've heard those do good in infinite baffle, but I think I'd need 2 and a lot of power to pull it off. 



vwguy383 said:


> Wait. So the subs are facing the rear but the ports are facing the front of the car? If that is right then I think that's your problem. I don't think you can have the ports on the back side of the box. It's is the one side you can't do. Unless there is a 90 degree curve in your port. Don't know to much about it and why it is. But I'm pretty sure someone smarter then me could tell you.
> 
> I would keep the subs. Just figure or the box.
> 
> ...


The ports are on the sides. I have played with these in a couple different enclosures. These are supposed to be used in 1.3 cubic ft boxes ported at 35Hz if I remember, and that's how I set them up. I plugged the ports and they are much improved, but I'm still not satisfied. I've tried these in .7 ft sealed and they are too choked up.



ccapil said:


> I would keep them and design a 4th order enclosure for them, they are wonderful subs. Even try sealed.


They are very musical. It's just a trunk mount solution that ruins them. I played around with some 4th order designs in WinISD and 4th order really makes them super inefficient. I have a 4th order for my JL 10W0 and I tried one of the RFA's in it. The box is .5 in the sealed chamber and .8 in the ported. It is ported at 50hz I think. It sounded good, but not efficient at all.

Hmmmmmm.......


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

I was going to say try what you have IB, most all subs sound great IB. However, the 8mm xmax pretty much limits you to a ported box if you want decent output. 

I like ported and band pass but in the GN, IB would be a good option. I don't know how important speed is to you but the lesser weight of the IB setup is nice. Even though mine would spin any sort of street tire at any legal speed, it would still get off the line harder with less weight. Plus, anything you can do to make life easier for the 2nd gear band is good. 

15s won't fit on the tray without tilting them back a good bit but it's not the end of the world. I guarantee a pair of 15s IB will cure the muddy problem and sound quicker and tighter than 99% of the systems out there. 

I really like ported and band pass for sound quality and for output but if you don't like the typical "bass from the trunk" and want a system that will sound detailed and great on every type of music, IB is for you. IB has the same output potential as sealed but with less power required. 

Anything by AE is great. The IB15, SBP15, and especially the AV15 with lots more xmax but the same low inductance and moving mass and efficiency as the others. 

The ID Max15 is probably the best I've ever heard IB. Sound quality is subjective but I have no problem recommending them based on SQ alone. However, you get 28mm xmax, 4" peak to peak mechanical throw, and 935cm^2 of cone area. They can move some serious air while sounding great and blending with the fronts so delicately. They will also play mishaps if needed and sound great doing so. They actually play well into the midrange. 

They're priced well for the performance you get but they're even more of a bargain when you figure with their massive displacement they can get as loud as a pair of "normal" 15s.

The IA Flatlyne is said to be one of the best sounding IB15s out there, I've never seen a bad review. 

I loved the 12W6, 13W6, and 13W7s I ran IB. These are the only ones that might possibly sound better than the Max15.........maybe. The 13W6 can still be found and IMO it's one of the most over looked subs out there. It has lots of cone area, lots of linear excursion, it sounds absolutely great IB, and it is probably the largest sub that will fit on the package tray and save trunk space. 

I've been recommending these ID Max subs way too much lately and I'm sure everyone is sick of it but it's no every day you find what might be the ultimate IB up sub especially when you bought them to prove they are over hyped. I seriously apologize to everyone for acting like a fanboy. 

In this GN, I think a pair of 13W6s would be awesome. That's my ultimate goal. You'll need a good amount of bass just to overcome the exhaust drone unless you're stock which I doubt.


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

Cant ever have enough cone area in an IB config.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

About the 15s being overkill, bigger is almost always better whether it's for SQ or SPL. The larger subs will offer lower distortion, require less power for the same output, have better TS parameters which in the correct enclosure will give tighter, quicker bass that digs lower with ease. They will require less excursion for the same output which is good in many ways. IMO, if you can fit it, go with the 15 or the 13.5" W6 that might fit on the tray. There's no reason not to.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

edzyy said:


> Cant ever have enough cone area in an IB config.


Agreed except I would take it a step further and add sealed config to that.


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## Buickmike (Aug 10, 2012)

Thanks for the advice. I haven't heard ID subs in a long time, but many years ago I heard a couple 10's in a IB setup and they were very impressive. It may be worth thinking about. I could care less about weight at this point since I put lots of deadening material and subs in. The damn thing weighs 3918 with me in it. That being said, I still can hit mid 11's at 120 in the quarter mile on pump gas, methanol, and only 22psi and 18 degrees of timing. Oh, and Toyo Proxes 275/45/16's in the rear. I have no plans to cage it so I'm happy with how it runs now. BTW, I see you have Heath Elmer's GNX as your avatar. He builds some serious badass cars and is a friend of mine. He painted my GN.


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## Buickmike (Aug 10, 2012)

If anyone wants to do some type of sub trade I will entertain it.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Buickmike said:


> Thanks for the advice. I haven't heard ID subs in a long time, but many years ago I heard a couple 10's in a IB setup and they were very impressive. It may be worth thinking about. I could care less about weight at this point since I put lots of deadening material and subs in. The damn thing weighs 3918 with me in it. That being said, I still can hit mid 11's at 120 in the quarter mile on pump gas, methanol, and only 22psi and 18 degrees of timing. Oh, and Toyo Proxes 275/45/16's in the rear. I have no plans to cage it so I'm happy with how it runs now. BTW, I see you have Heath Elmer's GNX as your avatar. He builds some serious badass cars and is a friend of mine. He painted my GN.


I've been obsessed with some of his builds. I especially liked this one because it has the Simmons wheels and GNX flares and even one of the old Kenne-Bell fuel pressure gauges just like mine before the body shop stole it piece by piece. 

I don't want to go too far off topic but mine weighed 3,40x stock with the spare and jack taken out and the '87 drivetrain. I wonder why there is such a large discrepancy in weight. I know about the aluminum vs steel drums, the aluminum vs steel wheels, and aluminum vs the unfortunate steel bumper reinforcements but that doesn't account for 5-600lbs. 

Never mind, just saw that's with you in the car. That's not a bad weight depending on your weight. Hell, most new "performance" cars are 3,900-4,500lbs without driver. 

Good luck with it. If I were doing a sub setup in mine it would b a 13W6 because of fit, sound quality, output, and weight. It doesn't hurt that they're fairly cheap for what you're getting. Now I'm wanting to buy more subs for it even though it's down lol. Let us know what you end up getting.


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## Buickmike (Aug 10, 2012)

BuickGN said:


> I've been obsessed with some of his builds. I especially liked this one because it has the Simmons wheels and GNX flares and even one of the old Kenne-Bell fuel pressure gauges just like mine before the body shop stole it piece by piece.
> 
> I don't want to go too far off topic but mine weighed 3,40x stock with the spare and jack taken out and the '87 drivetrain. I wonder why there is such a large discrepancy in weight. I know about the aluminum vs steel drums, the aluminum vs steel wheels, and aluminum vs the unfortunate steel bumper reinforcements but that doesn't account for 5-600lbs.
> 
> ...


The car you have in your sig is an actual GNX. I think he got it for a good deal because it was a salvage title and cleaned it up. It's in here:

Heath Elmer Restorations

My car weighs about 3750 with me not in it. It is a fully optioned T top car with 2 layers of e dead, stereo, and that is also with spare and jack and a full tank. 

I wish IB was easy to test. It's a lot of work to seal up the cab to the trunk. I think my first thing will be to mock up the box facing forward and put some better rear fill speakers in (currently just a set of boston 3.5" 2 way plates on homemade adapters). I really miss the additional punch and midbass the 6x9's gave me back in the day.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Love the RF Audiophile line. Had two 12's that got stolen in 1997. Great subs. I miss them.

Small sealed enclosures were where they shined. Kept excursion under control, allowed them to integrate with the rest of the system very easy. If you were looking for SPL, then obviously they were not the way to go but for SQ... a great choice.


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## Buickmike (Aug 10, 2012)

cubdenno said:


> Love the RF Audiophile line. Had two 12's that got stolen in 1997. Great subs. I miss them.
> 
> Small sealed enclosures were where they shined. Kept excursion under control, allowed them to integrate with the rest of the system very easy. If you were looking for SPL, then obviously they were not the way to go but for SQ... a great choice.


Were yours the 1st gen or 2nd gen?

I bought them for SQ. That being said, my experience from these was hearing a pair of 10's in a friend's mustang and really liking them. They were in sealed boxes and were being pushed from a mid 90's Punch 200. They hit seriously hard, were tight, and accurate. I tried one of mine in a .7 cu ft sealed box and it was tight and hard, but seemed a little choked up and was not that musical. Just sounded unnatural. RF made a statement that these are not supposed to be used in sealed enclosures, but rather 1.3 cu ft enclosures ported at 35hz.

These sound nice in a hatchback, but are just too boomy in the trunk of the GN. I sealed them and they are better, but it does not do them justice. Still 1.3 ft enclosures. Maybe I try them in 1.0 sealed, put some good power to them, and see what happens.


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## Buickmike (Aug 10, 2012)

Too bad I don't have $500 laying around. THESE would do well in IB:

JBL GTI 1200GTI Car Speakers Subwoofers | eBay

I'm an old school fanatic and it is hard to get me to break away. I have old JL subs, the RFA's, used to have old Punch's, but they got stolen, and I LOOOOVE my JBL 1000GTi. That is my favorite sub. That being said I still would love to have some superman logo Oz Audio subs and I would also like to have some kicker gold letter subs just for the ridiculous SPL they are capable of with little power. I miss my Lanzar Pro Plus 12's too, although those were all about SPL.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Buickmike said:


> Were yours the 1st gen or 2nd gen?
> 
> I bought them for SQ. That being said, my experience from these was hearing a pair of 10's in a friend's mustang and really liking them. They were in sealed boxes and were being pushed from a mid 90's Punch 200. They hit seriously hard, were tight, and accurate. I tried one of mine in a .7 cu ft sealed box and it was tight and hard, but seemed a little choked up and was not that musical. Just sounded unnatural. RF made a statement that these are not supposed to be used in sealed enclosures, but rather 1.3 cu ft enclosures ported at 35hz.
> 
> These sound nice in a hatchback, but are just too boomy in the trunk of the GN. I sealed them and they are better, but it does not do them justice. Still 1.3 ft enclosures. Maybe I try them in 1.0 sealed, put some good power to them, and see what happens.


FIRST Gen. As memory serves, I thought they were for only sealed. But hell, I may be mis remembering. Mine were in a hatchback powered by a zapco Z400C4 bridged to 2 channel mode. 

A buddy/coworker still has his 10's from the same sale I got mine.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Forgot to add, 

If you want to do it all over sub-wise, and if you could fit one, the SI 15HT would work well in that trunk.

I did 4 10" MTX subs IB in a GN in the early 90's for a guy. We called it Free air then. Simple baffle board and expanding foam to seal.Let foam dry and trim. Copied my best friends system in a 85 grand prix. He ran 2 10's "free air".

Good little jaunt down memory lane.


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## Buickmike (Aug 10, 2012)

The manual said to put them in sealed enclosures, but RF later made a statement saying that they were really intended for ported. Do you remember what size you had them in? Maybe .7 is too small. Maybe .85-1.0 is just right.


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## Buickmike (Aug 10, 2012)

Hmmmm...Did some messing around and tried one of the subs in the trunk sealed. I only have a .64 cu ft box to play with, but even at that, putting it facing forward sounded MUCH better. It is too small though, but I'm thinking .75 or so would be good. I'll play with WinISD and see. I came to the conclusion that ported enclosures are not good for my trunk. I tried my JBL 1000v in a ported enclosure and it was too boomy, but is amazing in a harchback or truck.

Looks like I'll keep these, face them forward and go ported. The only other thing I'll try is a 4th order box I have.


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## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

This would be a great option for ib. Several members on here run them or have run them. And at 240 shipped I don't think it can be beat 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hot-deals/166554-jbl-w12-gti-could-had-$240.html


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## Buickmike (Aug 10, 2012)

Alrighty. I tried 4th order and it is good and efficient, but they sound like average subs. I will build a forward facing sealed enclosure for them over the next few weeks. I'll also put more power to them. The XTant 404M is not cutting it. I'll either use my Sundown SAX 100.4 or stay old school and employ my Lanzar OptiDrive 100 and 50.


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