# Midbass door enclosures ... Is it EVEN worth it ?



## mendopell (May 28, 2015)

Time ? I have all I want. Supplies ? Check.

But, it's a lot of work ! And I'd love to hear from people WHO KNOW, if it's really worth doing. This is NOT a competitive vehichle. But I have the skills and time. But if I won't notice a worthwhile difference, I don't want to do it. 

They wouldn't be made from fiberglass. But from mdf or birch in 1/2" thickness. I'm almost certain I have 14 liters of airspace for each door. And that is for a single Focal 6.5" flax Midbass. Something like this, but all smooth and formed to the door.








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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I definitely think so:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...llery/172958-mikes-pro-audio-passat-2-0t.html

I didnt have the tools or the skill level to do it myself so I left it in the very capable hands of Jon at Handcrafted. In my opinion, I wouldn't go to all that trouble for a sealed 6" driver. Those are my tastes though. If you're going to build door enclosures, you might as well fit the biggest driver you can.


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

I have heard a couple of cars with built doors. All of them sounded better than a standard door install - BY A LOT.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Tough question to answer, for me, no it's not worth it. I have very reasonable midbass with sealed doors, some good baffles, and slight modification to the door panel. I wouldn't go through the effort to do enclosures unless I was dead set on competing.

However, although I have some tools, and love working with my hands, you may have better tools, and you may be better at fabricating, in which case, you may be able to accomplish the same project in less than half of the time it would take me. Most speakers will do very well in a sealed door, even though it isn't a proper enclosure. I'm sure a hand build enclosure will give you better performance, but I'm not sure how much better.

Can you install the midbass in the doors the way you would, build an enclosure the size that you're aiming for and experiment with both in the car to see if there's a huge difference? Even if you build a small cube and stick it by your foot, you should get a very good idea in the difference in midbass compared to mounting in the door in a more traditional way.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

mikey7182 said:


> I definitely think so:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...llery/172958-mikes-pro-audio-passat-2-0t.html
> 
> I didnt have the tools or the skill level to do it myself so I left it in the very capable hands of Jon at Handcrafted. In my opinion, I wouldn't go to all that trouble for a sealed 6" driver. Those are my tastes though. If you're going to build door enclosures, you might as well fit the biggest driver you can.


10's please!!! I would have no problems going huge if I wanted to rebuild door and panel.

Also, I've struggled like everybody else with doors. They can sound amazing and I prefer them for 2-ways. But I think preparing a door is just fine.

Then I went 3-way and luckily after reading about Andy W. winning a SQ contest in europe with the MS-8 + factory BMW + aftermarket sub the light bulb went on! Now I have his GB60 mid-bass sealed under my seats. If you want my recommendation that's the only way to do it. 

I was 2-way only in the past for simplicity but under the seat mid-bass has made me a 3-way believer. It's amazing. Plus, I don't have that crazy air blowing all over my pant leg.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Mine are surprisingly unobtrusive in terms of "pant leg air" especially considering they're ported!  I have them HPF'd at 80hz though, which is higher than most guys like to cross their midbass. I am also running a 3-way with some 7" midrange in the kicks on axis. The clarity and separation that opened up from the dedicated midrange made me an absolute believer as well. I don't see myself going back to a 2-way (or non-built door enclosures) at any point in the future.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

This is not something that can be answered easily or definitively. I built sealed pods. Tons of work, I have some cosmetic issues to fix, and would have made some design changes if I did it again. But my pods are not just part of the door panel; they are built into and are part of the structure of the inner metal door skin itself. 



mikey7182 said:


> Mine are surprisingly unobtrusive in terms of "pant leg air" especially considering they're ported!  I have them HPF'd at 80hz though, which is higher than most guys like to cross their midbass. I am also running a 3-way with some 7" midrange in the kicks on axis. The clarity and separation that opened up from the dedicated midrange made me an absolute believer as well. I don't see myself going back to a 2-way (or non-built door enclosures) at any point in the future.


Mine are 7" drivers sealed crossed at 150hz in a three way...so there...


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

I like the idea of a tuned enclosure for the mids and preferably vented..

Pods allow you to angle the mid upwards and get it on axis or at least a whole lot closer..

Not having to spend an excessive amount of time, money and labor on dampening the doors is a bonus..


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

the only way i'd personally leave a mid bass driver in the door is boxed. at the levels i like to listen to, there's no unboxed door mid bass that i've heard not buzz something enough to be distracting to me. 

worth it? i dunno. it's a lot of work to do right, and to get large enough. then, you have to worrying about it looking decent, or maybe not. my guess is, for 94.1%, nope, not worth it.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Perhaps another option-- I am going to be using these AP enclosures for the XS69 mid bass I will be installing in the doors of my Ram. I has a friend who lives in the UK order them for me and then ship them to me.

Optimise Automotive | AP Speaker Pods

The oval boxes arrived a couple weeks ago and they are well built from stacked rings of 3/4" MDF. They also look good covered in vinyl, though I probably should have ordered the nude considering my plans for them, which is to strip the vinyl off, then coat them in plastidip to weather proof them. I will then cut them longitudinally so that the correct depth just clears the window inside the door panel…that section will be sealed and mounted to the inside of the door panel through the factory mounting holes in the door speaker location. The remaining front portion of the AP enclosure will be sealed and mounted to the front of the door panel and be cut through the plastic vanity door cover and thus extend just inside the cab where the speaker will be mounted to it. If the plastidip doesn't look good inside the cab, I will cover that portion with charcoal vinyl. Also, I will tune the AP vent to the speakers first Its really not that much work and will HOPEFULLY help me achieve a tight and clean door mounted mid bass from 80 to 350 hz.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

So long as you're using an electronic high pass filter, the only benefit of an actual enclosure in the door is to prevent rattles and vibrating door panels. If you're going to build boxes in the doors, it's important to make them the right size, just like a box for a subwoofer.


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...llery/139236-mercedes-midbass-enclosures.html

Tried for several years to deaden, seal and remove all resonances and rattles. Tried all the materials and techniques. This is the solution. Solid, smooth mid bass and the door is silent!


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## mendopell (May 28, 2015)

garysummers said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...llery/139236-mercedes-midbass-enclosures.html
> 
> Tried for several years to deaden, seal and remove all resonances and rattles. Tried all the materials and techniques. This is the solution. Solid, smooth mid bass and the door is silent!



Okay, Gary. That sealed it. Guess I'm going to build void free birch, mdf, and bondo door enclosures. My decision is made. 
I just hope I don't need too much in the way of fiberglass ... I can't afford it, realistically.


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

mendopell said:


> Okay, Gary. That sealed it. Guess I'm going to build void free birch, mdf, and bondo door enclosures. My decision is made.
> I just hope I don't need too much in the way of fiberglass ... I can't afford it, realistically.


Make sure you have the adequate volume for the drivers you plan to use, as Andy has stated. Very important for the enclosure and driver combo to work properly. 

G


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

jtaudioacc said:


> the only way i'd personally leave a mid bass driver in the door is boxed. at the levels i like to listen to, there's no unboxed door mid bass that i've heard not buzz something enough to be distracting to me.
> 
> worth it? i dunno. it's a lot of work to do right, and to get large enough. then, you have to worrying about it looking decent, or maybe not. my guess is, for 94.1%, nope, not worth it.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So long as you're using an electronic high pass filter, the only benefit of an actual enclosure in the door is to prevent rattles and vibrating door panels. If you're going to build boxes in the doors, it's important to make them the right size, just like a box for a subwoofer.





garysummers said:


> Make sure you have the adequate volume for the drivers you plan to use, as Andy has stated. Very important for the enclosure and driver combo to work properly.
> 
> G


Coincidentally someone mentioned Musicar Northwest as one of the "uber greatness installers" to check out.. Surfing their FB page they have what appears to be built out baffling that goes through the card, so the driver isn't playing behind the card. I'd think this, even if using the door as enclosure still, might be a rather cool alternative. (now I'm adding cards to parts list to try to score at the salvage yard). 

examples...

























Though I'm fairly sure there's some serious custom card work here, the idea I took away was keeping the card as much out of the 'system' as possible.. So if the door was rather well sealed, at least card anomalies from firing a speaker behind a grilled piece of plastic could at least be eliminated.

Makes me think a guy might even do nicely to angle the driver slightly with wedged baffling.

Plusses: 
- minimizes the card as part of the 'instrument'.
- card is mainly affected from behind resonance, which sealing and MLV can address if done really well.
- More 'direct' speaker exposure without 'muffling' behind the card and crappy grill.
- Bye bye fugly 8th Civic door grill work.. Have ya seen that? Ick!

Minuses: 
- No going back once you cut that card
- Complexity beyond just doing a ring, but good fab work can turn that into a beautiful plus as seen above.

So in short, there's conventional door enclosure, and there's separate enclosure build, but there is an in-between alternative maybe.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

Babs said:


> Though I'm fairly sure there's some serious custom card work here,


serious doesn't do the justice of how awesome those panels are. they are just ridiculously phenomenal in build, design and execution.


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

jtaudioacc said:


> serious doesn't do the justice of how awesome those panels are. they are just ridiculously phenomenal in build, design and execution.


The panels do look very nice, but there does not appear to be any attempt to mitigate the back wave into the door,(as far as I can tell), which is the major issue. Very clean appearance though. If they took that design with an enclosure behind it you'd have a winner.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

jtaudioacc said:


> serious doesn't do the justice of how awesome those panels are. they are just ridiculously phenomenal in build, design and execution.


Totally agreed!
I trust you're healing well and back to working on that back swing again soon. 

So the whole topic has me looking at my ride.. 8th civ sedan. Lot's o' potential. Ok... I gotta find some 8th Si Sedan door cards to hack up, for like nothin'.  The cards are kinda blessed by being sorta thick and chunky at the bottom. Yeah, I know.. run with that.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Gary, I think JT means more so the fabrication techniques Tom went through to build and design that door focusing on the fit and finish, and not necessarily the SQ characteristics. JT, you should post the before picture of that door. 

Babs, for an 8th SI sedan, JT has a good solution for one, but floor not door.


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## palldat (Feb 6, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> the only way i'd personally leave a mid bass driver in the door is boxed. at the levels i like to listen to, there's no unboxed door mid bass that i've heard not buzz something enough to be distracting to me.
> 
> worth it? i dunno. it's a lot of work to do right, and to get large enough. then, you have to worrying about it looking decent, or maybe not. my guess is, for 94.1%, nope, not worth it.


Box mine please


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

papasin said:


> Gary, I think JT means more so the fabrication techniques Tom went through to build and design that door focusing on the fit and finish, and not necessarily the SQ characteristics. JT, you should post the before picture of that door.
> 
> Babs, for an 8th SI sedan, JT has a good solution for one, but floor not door.



Yep of course JT's killer kicks here came to mind. I just can't go there with my size 11-1/2's and the clutch. 

If I had spare cards though, I'd certainly entertain seeing if first-timer luck could strike twice with fabrication. Look at all that space we have in that pocket area behind the door grill and how thick the card is at the grill. There's room there. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

Babs said:


> Yep of course JT's killer kicks here came to mind. I just can't go there with my size 11-1/2's and the clutch.
> 
> If I had spare cards though, I'd certainly entertain seeing if first-timer luck could strike twice with fabrication. Look at all that space we have in that pocket area behind the door grill and how thick the card is at the grill. There's room there.
> 
> ...


I wear a 12.5 and have no issue with Richard's clutch.
JT does it right.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Babs said:


> Yep of course JT's killer kicks here came to mind. I just can't go there with my size 11-1/2's and the clutch.


Wouldn't be a problem if you didn't have legs


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

gstokes said:


> Wouldn't be a problem if you didn't have legs


I had a really good come-back, but nah.. I got nothin'. Ya got me! 

Good possibilities for under-dash subs on both sides though. 
Always an upside.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

isn't the disabled conversion keeping the foot pedals in place, for when someone has to drive it that's not disabled?

I wouldn't take out the pedals to put in sub boxes, that's a little extreme...

but building a door panel out, is also extreme in a way.


if someone artistic did the drawings, and then a form was made, I would think a limited run of 100 door panels built on sound quality and in various shade/colors using factory matched plastics/fabric, would sell well...

I mean, you want a map pocket? Okay dokey, here's a standard door panel. You want a wild door enclosure? Here's the anonymizer, factory look-alike door panels that hide your sound and doin' it right...


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Not worth it.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So long as you're using an electronic high pass filter, the only benefit of an actual enclosure in the door is to prevent rattles and vibrating door panels. If you're going to build boxes in the doors, it's important to make them the right size, just like a box for a subwoofer.


One hundred hertz is nearly twelve feet long.
When you don't bother to seal the enclosure, those wavelengths escape via the numerous holes in the door, and they lower your efficiency at low frequency.

I see all these people on the forums putting eights and even tens in their doors, when the truth is that a five inch or six inch woofer will do the job if they'd simply build a proper sealed or ported box.

Not that I have anything against dipole woofers, I think they sound great. But people are mistaking door mounted midbasses for an "infinite baffle" when a door is anything but infinite.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

One big advantage I see with a door "enclosure" build out:

Might be able to angle the driver and also address back-waves. This in and of itself could be very nice especially if the driver is in a 2-way for more on-axis response. I see the detriment of my door mids in a conventional mounting pretty easily by the rather ragged response throughout the band-width. It's certainly not hi-fi without a metric ton of EQ work. 

A successful driver/enclosure relationship (speaker) is all about:
- sealed volume for driver performance
- standing wave coloration through walls and driver
- resonance coloration through the enclosure walls
- backwave coloration through the driver
- driver angle to listener

I've darn near talked myself into the idea.


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## jackies (Jan 14, 2010)

I been practically 100% convinced that sealed midbass will not sound all that much better than well reinforced and deadened door. 
...
Or will it???

Please, beside obvious theoretical advantages, maybe anyone could chime in with personal experiences, somebody who had midbass in the door and then built a box or vice versa?


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

the problem of matching speakers to the box, that were designed for leaky box, free-air use, with their high Qts and need for air volume to work well, is exacerbated by the smaller enclosure volumes even a well-designed door enclosure requires.

you can get some specialty drivers that are made for small enclosure use, with low Qts and no boomy box sounding peaking, but they aren't usually made for a car's environment.

one contradiction is that a low Qts driver is using a powerful motor and a thin/light cone, which in a door enclosure, means that the backwave from 2.5" away, is going to color the sound more than if the box was 12" deep, and/or the driver had a relatively stiff, heavy cone that would not allow sound to pass through it.

the fact that a door acts like an untuned port, means you can bottom out the driver easily, with no free lunch for a tuned vent. The whole door vibrates, and adds cancellation waves to whatever the driver is able to produce, also coloring the sound.

the phenomenon of cabin gain, means that you don't need to ask small enclosures to reproduce deep bass in the door, so a small enclosure can be used and if you can vent it, you can tune the vent very high compared to a system where the door speakers were also the last stop for bass in the system, no subs.

Tuning to a higher vent means you can get away with smaller box volume in vented, which I would think, actually makes sense if you are going through the trouble of door enclosures.

would anyone be able to confirm, that if you use a small box on say, a 10" pro audio driver and vented the box at 90 hz, using a passive radiator, you'd get the most mid bass output? Over a 10" pro audio driver in a door that's treated and damped?

I think the benefit would be obvious, and if you have space to fit a 10" driver you should be able to come up with room for a 10" passive radiator...

???


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

jackies said:


> I been practically 100% convinced that sealed midbass will not sound all that much better than well reinforced and deadened door.
> ...
> Or will it???
> 
> Please, beside obvious theoretical advantages, maybe anyone could chime in with personal experiences, somebody who had midbass in the door and then built a box or vice versa?


I've heard Gary Summers car twice with door mounted midbass, and twice with door mounted enclosed midbass. Each time I listened, he had changed something from the last time. By far, the biggest improvement in the times I've listened to it was the first time I listened to it with the midbass in enclosures. So much so that all future cars I do with door mounted midbass will have proper door mounted enclosures.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I've heard Gary Summers car twice with door mounted midbass, and twice with door mounted enclosed midbass. Each time I listened, he had changed something from the last time. By far, the biggest improvement in the times I've listened to it was the first time I listened to it with the midbass in enclosures. So much so that all future cars I do with door mounted midbass will have proper door mounted enclosures.


did anything else change besides the mounting/enclosure of the woofer? and how much of a difference was it? what was better about it?


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## mendopell (May 28, 2015)

Just as fyi, I am the .OP. for this thread. And it has became very interesting! As we continue discussing the science and experiences on the subject, I'm going to also try and grab a few answers pertaining to my own build, starting later today.

And I'm still not decided .... perfectly. 

Here are my thoughts on the subject, thus far : I have ZERO doubts in mind, that getting your midbass driver mounted on a more inert and stable baffle, will improve sound quality and midbass output solidity. But I'm not at all sure that it's the difference in enclosures, as much as it is that a midbass enclosure, mounted with stand-offs to the treated door, will have way less vibrations to deal with, and will be a more solid mounting for the driver ( improved baffle ) if you will.

But then it comes down to this very important thing ... Can you get enough air volume ?

I talked to Scott, who built Gary's midbass enclosures, and he says they are around 9+ liters. I have the ability to make mine about 13+ liters. And when I originally asked if it was worth it, please remember I am NOT doing these in fiberglass .... Can't afford it. But I have done this about 7 times in the past 30 years. I use mdf, void free birch, and bondo. And it is way less expensive. Also less time consuming. 

About the only reason I'm still undecided, is some people I respect on this forum are saying it's just not worth doing .... and I'm just reading on to try and make my decision, based a lot on the experiences people have brought to this thread.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

In sure there was a re-tune. I know he said that it was much easier to tune them in the enclosures.

As for what I heard? No audible resonances at all. There were some resonances before the enclosures, and as he's said, he had a lot of time and effort into eliminating them, but they didn't completely go away until he put them in the enclosures.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Goes back to the hybrid idea I think. Get the speaker out from under the card but still utilizing the door. Still gives the benefit of removing the card as a detriment but still allows for drivers more forgiving of the door environment. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

cajunner said:


> Tuning to a higher vent means you can get away with smaller box volume in vented, which I would think, actually makes sense if you are going through the trouble of door enclosures.
> 
> would anyone be able to confirm, that if you use a small box on say, a 10" pro audio driver and vented the box at 90 hz, using a passive radiator, you'd get the most mid bass output? Over a 10" pro audio driver in a door that's treated and damped?
> 
> ...


Other than the PR, this was my exact line of thinking when I did mine. The bottom 60% of my doors are vented enclosures, which are decoupled from the actual doors. They aren't built off my door panels or anything like that; they are completely molded from scratch. I have 10" pro audio mids, and I designed the enclosures for them specifically. They are about 0.6cf and tuned around 75hz. I run a [email protected], -24db/oct. Granted most people would never go to this "extreme" but for my application, it works wonderfully. I've yet to hear a pair of small format midbass that comes close to holding a candle to my doors. 

I know Patrick is a bit of a nonconformist when it comes to wanting to extract the most out of small drivers instead of shoving as large of a driver as you can in places without putting any thought into the design or application, but in my experience, in real world applications, there just isn't replacement for displacement when both are done properly. Perhaps a 5-6" woofer in a sealed enclosure can fare well against some of the guys dropping 8"-10" woofers in their poorly treated doors, but that's not really comparing apples to apples. 

I have kicked around trying a few different mids that would fit in my enclosure, such as the B&C 10NW64 and some others, but I haven't really felt the itch to change a single thing in my car.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

It all goes back to the person's tolerance for resonances. I have none at all, and neither does my wife. We both have a knack for hearing buzzes and resonances that many others dont. I have cld and ccf in places in my house due to buzzes caused by my home sound system.

I have personally yet to hear a car with door mounted midbass, without some sort of audible resonance. I've heard very very good cars that do an amazing job of minimizing it, but never one that completely eliminated it. The only two exceptions are Gary's MB and the magic bus. Both of those had enclosed midbass.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> It all goes back to the person's tolerance for resonances. I have none at all, and neither does my wife. We both have a knack for hearing buzzes and resonances that many others dont. I have cld and ccf in places in my house due to buzzes caused by my home sound system.
> 
> I have personally yet to hear a car with door mounted midbass, without some sort of audible resonance. I've heard very very good cars that do an amazing job of minimizing it, but never one that completely eliminated it. The only two exceptions are Gary's MB and the magic bus. Both of those had enclosed midbass.


Next time I'm in Cali, you can demo mine and make it a third.  I've been on the hunt for Aenima on vinyl BTW! Still no luck!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Yeah, I already told my wife the next time you came out I needed to make that gtg, since I missed the s10.

It's rediculous how hard it is to find it. Real copies pop up on ebay from time to time but they're always between $300-450, including used copies. It's so hard to find, even the bootlegs are going for $100, and those are just produced in some sweat shop somewhere off of the consumer cd, instead of the vinyl master. I told my wife I was going to eventually just impulse buy the next sealed copy that came up. She said as long as she can impulse buy a xbox one for the bedroom lol.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Sounds like a fair trade to me!  There's a small chance I may be driving over next weekend to see Deftones and Incubus in either LA or San Diego. Not sure where in Cali you are...


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## mendopell (May 28, 2015)

Okay .... I need some help please. I am very limited in my ability to model. But here is what I get when I use 14 liters as my enclosure volume. What does it all mean ? Help with translation ?








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Does this look okay to cross over at 70 or 80 hz ? I can go as high as 48db/oct .....

This is where I need YOUR advice, after seeing what I have thus far.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

mikey7182 said:


> Other than the PR, this was my exact line of thinking when I did mine. The bottom 60% of my doors are vented enclosures, which are decoupled from the actual doors. They aren't built off my door panels or anything like that; they are completely molded from scratch. I have 10" pro audio mids, and I designed the enclosures for them specifically. They are about 0.6cf and tuned around 75hz. I run a [email protected], -24db/oct. Granted most people would never go to this "extreme" but for my application, it works wonderfully. I've yet to hear a pair of small format midbass that comes close to holding a candle to my doors.
> 
> I know Patrick is a bit of a nonconformist when it comes to wanting to extract the most out of small drivers instead of shoving as large of a driver as you can in places without putting any thought into the design or application, but in my experience, in real world applications, there just isn't replacement for displacement when both are done properly. Perhaps a 5-6" woofer in a sealed enclosure can fare well against some of the guys dropping 8"-10" woofers in their poorly treated doors, but that's not really comparing apples to apples.
> 
> I have kicked around trying a few different mids that would fit in my enclosure, such as the B&C 10NW64 and some others, but I haven't really felt the itch to change a single thing in my car.


what you say carries a lot of weight, since you're known as the "hardest hitting system" winner for a while now.

if you say that a bigger cone in a smaller box is not only okay, but the best you've heard yet in dynamics and real impact from the door location, then buddy, I think we need to listen to that, instead of theories.


and if you agree that vented doors can work with big cones, in small boxes at higher tuning, and that's what you've done and you don't need to change anything, then there's some more of that sage wisdom...

and if garysummers can say his doors work best with enclosures and it's also easier to tune them, then there's his record at tuning, which is to say his reference makes him put enclosures into his doors, then how can anyone really argue against that kind of dual recommendation?

I'm pretty sure the work is not easy, the art of integrating body panels to the car's interior theme, is where most people either say "love it!" or "take that **** out of my car" and if you can pass that aesthetic hurdle, then it's a no-brainer if you are someone who pushes limits and defines yourself in superlatives, if not openly then at least right before you go to bed at night...


"I am the car audio madman. I will not let any obstacle release me from my obligation to myself, including the making of door enclosures. I cannot be defeated by fealty, I will make door panels that are exquisite, and essential. I will not rest until I have had my door speakers sound better than anyone within a 125 mile radius."

haha..


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

i didn't really read through all the recent responses. but like andy and other said earlier, the resonances, rattles, etc. the door emanates is gone with door enclosures. 

obviously, you need to build a proper sized enclosure, which, usually isn't very easy.

well focused rear wave kick panels for mid bass are another solution, but come with some drawbacks too. 

like chris, my tolerance, or lack of, for the noises doors will make me look for some other solution 100% of the time in my personal car.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Well looks like I'll be the only one experimenting with door mounted, aperiodic mid bass enclosures that are small, relatively easy to install, tunable and ALSO bring the speaker cone through the door panel into the cabin.

ANYBODY have comments or opinion on the idea??


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> i didn't really read through all the recent responses. but like andy and other said earlier, the resonances, rattles, etc. the door emanates is gone with door enclosures.
> 
> obviously, you need to build a proper sized enclosure, which, usually isn't very easy.
> 
> ...


And that's why at some point, hopefully this coming year, I'll be talking to you about doing the doors in the new car. Possibly the sub enclosure as well.


Mendopell, that looks fine to cross at 80hz, that's where I would cross it.

Mikey, probably won't make it that soon, out of town last weekend, work this weekend, my wife was gone monday for a Lindsey Sterling concert, and I'll be gone next weds for a Lamb Of GOD concert. But, you never know, I'll keep you updated. I'm in between fresno and bakersfield for reference.


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## mendopell (May 28, 2015)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Mendopell, that looks fine to cross at 80hz, that's where I would cross it.
> .



So looking at my numbers the program spit out, nothing looks out of whack ?


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## mendopell (May 28, 2015)

seafish said:


> Well looks like I'll be the only one experimenting with door mounted, aperiodic mid bass enclosures that are small, relatively easy to install, tunable and ALSO bring the speaker cone through the door panel into the cabin.
> 
> ANYBODY have comments or opinion on the idea??



Hi seafish ... I think your proposed plan is really interesting ! I just have no experience with the product. I looked at the website, and see the door pods. If I were to be going to do something like that, I would personally buy some small aperiodic membranes from PartsExpress, and make my own. But I would love to read how they work for you.


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

mikey7182 said:


> Sounds like a fair trade to me!  There's a small chance I may be driving over next weekend to see Deftones and Incubus in either LA or San Diego. Not sure where in Cali you are...


Incubus at Verizon? I am debating going myself - They are so good live.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Mendopell, yeah, I can't see anything wrong with the numbers, as long as the t/s parameters were entered correctly. You could probably even get away with a slightly smaller enclosure if you had to, but the one you have should be fine crossing between 70-80hz.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

mendopell said:


> Hi seafish ... I think your proposed plan is really interesting ! I just have no experience with the product. I looked at the website, and see the door pods. If I were to be going to do something like that, I would personally buy some small aperiodic membranes from PartsExpress, and make my own. But I would love to read how they work for you.


Mendopell, will definitely be including this aspect in my build log when I get er done this winter. The pair of 6x9 aperiodic pods only cost me $100 to have shipped here through my friend and they are sturdy and well built. Should have got them unfinished for less money as it turns out I will be removing the vinyl anyway and coating them in plastidip. Only downside, is that they won't ship to the US, so you must have someone who will order and then ship them to you.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Patrick Bateman said:


> One hundred hertz is nearly twelve feet long.
> When you don't bother to seal the enclosure, those wavelengths escape via the numerous holes in the door, and they lower your efficiency at low frequency.
> 
> I see all these people on the forums putting eights and even tens in their doors, when the truth is that a five inch or six inch woofer will do the job if they'd simply build a proper sealed or ported box.
> ...


I think the difference is huge. Sealed boxes, even if the box is undersized sounds better than "open-air" in almost every case. The "open-air" type of installation is just as you pointed out a sort of dipole and lower the efficiency quite significantly. I use two 5,5" drivers with a Qt of 1,8 and Fsc of 167Hz (really small enclosure). Still they play down to 70Hz effortlessly with some EQ. Amazing output and zero rattling/vibrations. They got FAR more perceived output than my last 8in "IB" installation (about the same displacement). 

I would recommend enclosures, but it's usually a lot of extra work.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Hanatsu said:


> I think the difference is huge. Sealed boxes, even if the box is undersized sounds better than "open-air" in almost every case. The "open-air" type of installation is just as you pointed out a sort of dipole and lower the efficiency quite significantly. I use two 5,5" drivers with a Qt of 1,8 and Fsc of 167Hz (really small enclosure). Still they play down to 70Hz effortlessly with some EQ. Amazing output and zero rattling/vibrations. They got FAR more perceived output than my last 8in "IB" installation (about the same displacement).
> 
> I would recommend enclosures, but it's usually a lot of extra work.


Holy jabroni look who it is!

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> Holy jabroni look who it is!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> Holy jabroni look who it is!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I know, right? 

I'm glad he still pops in from time to time. I really learn a lot from the Hana.


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## mendopell (May 28, 2015)

Hanatsu said:


> I think the difference is huge. Sealed boxes, even if the box is undersized sounds better than "open-air" in almost every case. The "open-air" type of installation is just as you pointed out a sort of dipole and lower the efficiency quite significantly. I use two 5,5" drivers with a Qt of 1,8 and Fsc of 167Hz (really small enclosure). Still they play down to 70Hz effortlessly with some EQ. Amazing output and zero rattling/vibrations. They got FAR more perceived output than my last 8in "IB" installation (about the same displacement).
> 
> I would recommend enclosures, but it's usually a lot of extra work.



And ....... that sealed the deal for me. My door panels are already removed, and I'm wiping the skins down with mineral spirits, in a few. Wooden enclosures it will be !


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

I have 10" midbass "IB" in well-treated doors. Resonances are very minimal, but I expected more output. There's no doubt in my mind that I'll be going with a sealed enclosure my next go around, although I'll probably have to downsize to an 8" driver to meet enclosure requirements. 

Or... I may just go all out & try to be like Mike, & go ported!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

cajunner said:


> what you say carries a lot of weight, since you're known as the "hardest hitting system" winner for a while now.
> 
> if you say that a bigger cone in a smaller box is not only okay, but the best you've heard yet in dynamics and real impact from the door location, then buddy, I think we need to listen to that, instead of theories.
> 
> ...


Well, both my arrival at that apparent reputation and my continued pursuit of building vehicles worthy of such praise have been rather inadvertent. While I can't say I've ever looked in the mirror and showered myself with hyperbolical praise, it is reassuring that the cars I've gone out on unconventional limbs designing and building have established a bit of notoriety, especially since I'm not a frequent flyer in the competition circuit.  There are definitely tons of cars hitting higher dB than me on the bottom end, but I have a penchant for aggressive midbass and live sound.

The work on the Passat doors was far from easy, and door enclosures of any kind will be especially difficult if an aesthetically pleasing result is a box you're looking to check off. Far beyond my skill set and tool ownership, which is why I paid Jon and Handcrafted to do it. Someone with more time and skill than me could probably do a fine job, so nothing but encouragement here. I just know my limitations.

Once nursing school is concluded and I'm in a position to purchase my next vehicle, the doors of that vehicle will receive 12" ported midbass in a 3-way front. What can I say? I'm funny about taking a step backwards, and I don't find comfort or enjoyment in playing it safe. I've learned through lots of my projects that what should or shouldn't sound good on paper- while a useful guide in many situations- isn't always completely accurate. I've had great results with some pretty out of the box ideas. While I've yet to establish a bedtime mantra, I'll wax bold and suggest that my radius of midbass superiority extends beyond 125 miles.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

mikey7182 said:


> I definitely think so:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...llery/172958-mikes-pro-audio-passat-2-0t.html
> 
> I didnt have the tools or the skill level to do it myself so I left it in the very capable hands of Jon at Handcrafted. In my opinion, I wouldn't go to all that trouble for a sealed 6" driver. Those are my tastes though. If you're going to build door enclosures, you might as well fit the biggest driver you can.


Nice build . Looks awesome! 


I would say if you have cancelation modes because of your stock door location adding boxes won't do anything for you unless you move the driver to a spot on the panel that doesn't have cancelations relative to the listening position.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

oabeieo said:


> Nice build . Looks awesome!
> 
> 
> I would say if you have cancelation modes because of your stock door location adding boxes won't do anything for you unless you move the driver to a spot on the panel that doesn't have cancelations relative to the listening position.


what about if the vent was moved?

I suggest using a passive radiator since it allows for the smaller box volume and tunability, but also because of depth requirements. A shallow sub can fit into the space where the door naturally opens up due to a factory speaker location, but a passive radiator only needs a minimal depth to operate.


It costs more, but it may return dividends in smoothing out those destructive nulls that congregate around the ears. Since the work is being shared by two zones, it is similar to the cone of confusion that lycan presented, for midbass arrays.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You guys are talking about adding a lot of weight to those door hinges. Could cause the doors to sag over time.

Been there, done that.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> You guys are talking about adding a lot of weight to those door hinges. Could cause the doors to sag over time.
> 
> Been there, done that.


Absolutely needs to be considered. 

You can't go at this haphazard. My pods use 3/8" plywood as a core with e-glass and epoxy. Non of the surfaces are straight; they use arcs or semicircles with disparate panel sizes. Each box has at least 10 different panels. It's not at a all a typical 4-sided box. The end result is a very stiff and strong box that is relatively light. The drivers are neo magnets. 

That is for 7" drivers that are crossed much higher than most midbass, and therefor, the boxes are fairly small. If you go big, like 8" drivers in sealed boxes, those things will get heavy, and I think one should really consider full on composite construction with core materials and high performance glass (e-glass) and high performance resins, and even bagging or infusion. I built the baffles in my car for my subs with coremat, e-glass, and vinyl ester resin for this reason (hand layup). The baffles are very, very strong and stiff. I would estimate that making something similar out of wood or MDF, would be at least 4x as heavy, if not more. Using traditional glass mat, ect would have been at least twice as heavy and not have near the performance.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

mikey7182 said:


> Other than the PR, this was my exact line of thinking when I did mine. The bottom 60% of my doors are vented enclosures, which are decoupled from the actual doors. They aren't built off my door panels or anything like that; they are completely molded from scratch. I have 10" pro audio mids, and I designed the enclosures for them specifically. They are about 0.6cf and tuned around 75hz. I run a [email protected], -24db/oct. Granted most people would never go to this "extreme" but for my application, it works wonderfully. I've yet to hear a pair of small format midbass that comes close to holding a candle to my doors.
> 
> I know Patrick is a bit of a nonconformist when it comes to wanting to extract the most out of small drivers instead of shoving as large of a driver as you can in places without putting any thought into the design or application, but in my experience, in real world applications, there just isn't replacement for displacement when both are done properly. Perhaps a 5-6" woofer in a sealed enclosure can fare well against some of the guys dropping 8"-10" woofers in their poorly treated doors, but that's not really comparing apples to apples.
> 
> I have kicked around trying a few different mids that would fit in my enclosure, such as the B&C 10NW64 and some others, but I haven't really felt the itch to change a single thing in my car.


Part of this is financial. Both of my cars were purchased new, and I don't intend to drive them into the ground. In a year or two the Genesis is probably going bye-bye to be replaced. And I want to get as much of my investment back as humanly possible. The ROI on $2000 fiberglass door pods is not good.









For instance, putting a woofer under the seat of my car puts the location of the sound within 10cm of where it would be if the woofer was in the door.









Now someone will think, "if I put an eight inch woofer under my car seat it will sound like it's coming from under the car seat." But that's easily fixed with a baffle. You can change the location by six inches easily, by using a baffle which reduces the apparent size of the loudspeaker.
Bandpass boxes work like this already; when you listen to a bandpass box, the apparent source of the sound isn't the woofer in the box, the apparent source of the sound is the port.

You can take this to real extremes; years ago Bose sold a box where the driver was in the trunk and the exit was in the center of the car!

This is no joke - you could put your midbasses in the trunk.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I agree that taking the plunge on door enclosures is not practical for most people (and mine were quite a bit more than $2k :/...). But I intend on keeping the Passat for quite awhile and really love the car, and I drive about 20k miles a year give or take, so I spend a lot of time in it.

I like your under-the-seat idea. It's not that dissimilar to my behind-the-seat install in the S-10. My current install is far more well-behaved than that one was, which I think is partially attributable to the midbass up front, as well as a more balanced subwoofer setup. I think we share the intrigue of tinkering with putting drivers where they're "not supposed" to go, and as I mentioned, I've had great results with a lot of unconventional ideas. The main reason I paid to have the doors done in the Passat, aside from the fact that I'd never had ported door midbass before and had threatened to do so for years, is that I wanted it to blend aesthetically. My S-10 was a beater truck, and while I did a pretty decent job restoring it and made the install look clean, the Passat gear was something I knew would be on display, and I wanted it to be as functional and factory looking as possible. 

As for the door hinges, I guess time will tell. My 10s are quite heavy, despite using neo motors, but the German engineering is pretty solid and closing/opening the door feels just like it did before any weight was added. The S-10 had a lot of issues with door pins breaking and going bad, and that was just from the weight of the deadener and an 8" midbass. Really shows the difference in manufacturer quality and standards, and why my next car will be another VW or Audi. Plus, they have HUGE door pockets.


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

thehatedguy said:


> You guys are talking about adding a lot of weight to those door hinges. Could cause the doors to sag over time.
> 
> Been there, done that.


The door enclosures Scott built for me have no wood in them. All fiberglass with an aluminum ring glassed in to mount the driver. The finish door is not much heavier than OEM, but solid as a rock. Previously with all my deadening efforts, dynamat, modeling clay, etc, the door weighed so much I ripped off several door handles.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Now, for the guys running enclosures...how close are you running your speakers to their Fs?

And the converse...the guys without them- how far away from Fs are you crossing your speakers?

I've done both in my car and depending on how close I got the speakers to resonance really determined whether the enclosure installs performed better.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Mine have an Fs of 71hz. The enclosure is tuned around 75hz and my HPF is at 80hz. I dropped it down to 63hz but didn't like it as much. I lost a fair amount of output and the transition between the sub and mids wasn't as coherent/seamless.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> Now, for the guys running enclosures...how close are you running your speakers to their Fs?
> 
> And the converse...the guys without them- how far away from Fs are you crossing your speakers?
> 
> I've done both in my car and depending on how close I got the speakers to resonance really determined whether the enclosure installs performed better.



I'm running the GB60's with 24db slopes at 70hz through 300hz. Fs is 66hz. Sealed enclosures under my seats. Passengers haven't noticed at all, nobody knows but me. They just look around confused.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Fs 55hz
f3 ~100hz
cross over 150hz, 24db slopes, but have run them down to 120hz without issue.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

cajunner said:


> what about if the vent was moved?
> 
> I suggest using a passive radiator since it allows for the smaller box volume and tunability, but also because of depth requirements. A shallow sub can fit into the space where the door naturally opens up due to a factory speaker location, but a passive radiator only needs a minimal depth to operate.
> 
> ...



I love the passive radiator idea. I do believe it would be very beneficial , even if the radiator was a array of small radiators firing into the door cavity for building purposes and cosmetics . I would venture to try it if I was planning a door box build


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

FS = 60Hz
HPF = [email protected]

Was trying different x-over points for a bit, 71,63,56.
But I think I have settled at 63.
Just a touch more fun!
Subs are x'd at [email protected]
The little gap/notch smooths a small bump at 60Hz.


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

Great thread all!


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

mikey7182 said:


> Mine have an Fs of 71hz. The enclosure is tuned around 75hz and my HPF is at 80hz. I dropped it down to 63hz but didn't like it as much. I lost a fair amount of output and the transition between the sub and mids wasn't as coherent/seamless.


That's got to be ridiculous. A few years back I did the math on the vented 12" midbasses in the Grand National and realized that they were capable of something like 20dB more output than a conventional midbass.

It's easy to overlook that there's a bunch of things going on to increase the output:

1) big ass voicecoils - the surface area of a 4" prosound voice coil is something like 300% more than what you'll find in a car audio midbass
2) the port reduces excursion down to nothing, so combined with a highpass filter, *the only thing limiting your output is how much the voice coil can endure.* (And that's a lot.)
3) The large cone increase efficiency
4) The high fs and QES increases efficiency

I like it loud, and though I've never had the motivation to go THIS nuts, I appreciate the engineering behind it!


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Dammit now I'm wondering if I could fit a twelve underneath my seats. There's a LOT of room under there...


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

garysummers said:


> FS = 60Hz
> HPF = [email protected]
> 
> Was trying different x-over points for a bit, 71,63,56.
> ...


Can a moderator give Gary a proper title? "DIYMA Novice" seems a bit unfair


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Patrick Bateman said:


> "DIYMA Novice" seems a bit unfair


lol…no doubt!!!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

So the enclosure guys are running pretty close to resonance so far.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Can a moderator give Gary a proper title? "DIYMA Novice" seems a bit unfair


If he gets special titles than every novice will want special treatment. Lol 

I don't think it means he's a novice , heck I'm a novice on diyma, lol


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

I think the trick still is like anything enclosure.. What's the driver want from it's specs. For instance, I'd be looking probably at the SB17 as that's essentially what I'm running just with an NVX symbol on the dust cover.










Madisound's description states Suggested Alignments:

Sealed box of 0.25 cubic feet for and F3 of 85Hz
Vented box of 0.5 cubic feet with a 2" diameter vent by6" long for an F3 of 55Hz.

So hmm.. 1/4 cubic foot is roughly a volume of 14" long x 8" high x 4" deep for something long extending front to rear at bottom of the door. That's certainly do-able. But that's where my TS ignorance shows.. What's that do as far as bandwidth at F3 of 85hz?


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Can a moderator give Gary a proper title? "DIYMA Novice" seems a bit unfair


Patrick,

I am fine with the novice title.
Reminds me of how much I have to learn,

But thanks for the thought! ?

G


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

garysummers said:


> Patrick,
> 
> I am fine with the novice title.
> Reminds me of how much I have to learn,
> ...


Says the guy who could quite easily serve all of us humble pie 

Respect and admiration here sir!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Well as long as you know your sensitivity is inflated by about 3 dB, it's not a problem.

F3 at 85 hertz isn't bad, it's pretty good for a midbass in a car...with cabin gain, you would get more extension than that.

But notice- the F3 is about 2x the Fs. This is natural and happens in every speaker. The roll off on the bottom is always about 2x Fs. The Qts gives us the shape of the roll off.

So the enclosure is determining the shape of the bottom end roll off. Which, you could mimic with a crossover...or negate if you are far enough away from resonance.

In your case if you were to cross those speakers around 70 or higher, the crossover slope would determine the shape of the bottom end, not the enclosure.



Babs said:


> I think the trick still is like anything enclosure.. What's the driver want from it's specs. For instance, I'd be looking probably at the SB17 as that's essentially what I'm running just with an NVX symbol on the dust cover.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

I just decided after reading this to try it , I whipped up some quick boxes , threw a set of dynaudio 8s in there and gave it plenty of juice. After some tuning they sounded better with no high pass and gained down some , they play everything great and I would say the diffrance between those and the 8g40 IB in the door is substantial. I ended up using both simultaneously for the best effect and have the 8g40 playing 125hz at 12db with a 70hz fs. The dynaudio has a low fs and in a box does very nice playing the uber lows and adds a really solid bottom end. The 8g40 does sound better than the dyn in a box above 100hz really . Way less coloration, just as loud. I would definitely recommend using a box in a door if done good the advantages in solid lows under 125 is worth it. The colorations at 100 125 160 200 315 in the box wasn't very pleasing but tunable and eq Able to get spectral balance IMO of course the IB 8" sounds better. Just one car just one install and one example but a fun test , I'll probably leave the boxes and figure a way to build them in the the car. But I'm leaving the other set , maybe a floor install. 


how to screenshot on windows 7


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

thehatedguy said:


> So the enclosure guys are running pretty close to resonance so far.


Yes , and a lower fs will make a more manageable enclosure in the bottom end correct?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

A lower Fs means the roll off on the bottom end will happen lower. Depending on a number of factors, you could negate the effects of the enclosure has on the shape of the bottom end.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

oabeieo said:


> Yes , and a lower fs will make a more manageable enclosure in the bottom end correct?


I think it depends on what you define as bottom end, and what your intended HPF is going to be. When I had the ported JBL 12s in my S-10, I crossed them at 63hz and tuned the enclosures around 55hz I believe. They had an Fs of 50hz IIRC. I usually try to stay right above Fs with tuning, and right above that with the filter. In the current install, the 10s blend beautifully with the sub at an 80hz xover point for both. Tons of authority, lots of up front bass. On most tracks, the sub is very difficult to locate, while still being very loud. The mids really help draw it forward. I like a higher xover point between mids and subs than a lot of people. It would be interesting to hear a lower efficiency mid in some ported enclosures that play down to 40-50hz though.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

mikey7182 said:


> I think it depends on what you define as bottom end, and what your intended HPF is going to be. When I had the ported JBL 12s in my S-10, I crossed them at 63hz and tuned the enclosures around 55hz I believe. They had an Fs of 50hz IIRC. I usually try to stay right above Fs with tuning, and right above that with the filter. In the current install, the 10s blend beautifully with the sub at an 80hz xover point for both. Tons of authority, lots of up front bass. On most tracks, the sub is very difficult to locate, while still being very loud. The mids really help draw it forward. I like a higher xover point between mids and subs than a lot of people. It would be interesting to hear a lower efficiency mid in some ported enclosures that play down to 40-50hz though.


Agreed , and I mean bottom end everything under 80 -100. Seems like the box just whoops ass under 100hz and can still take a beating all the way down even with no HPF at all , yes use a HPF but find that spot depending on the current sub is related , . I saw pics of the s10 that thing is nuts! And I saw the 5000 pics of speakers you posted. I think I look at every single one. I'm a glutton for punishment


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Here's some data on my enclosures for those who are interested;

The drivers are a pair of Seas L16RN-SL (H1480) - 8ohm.

The enclosure is a sealed ~2lit box (Qtc 1,6 - Fsc 141Hz)





Here's a quick simulation;







As you can see, the amplifier load is a lot higher with the EQed small boxes, that's the price you have you pay (Hoffman's Law). I feed them about 440W per side. They got no issues keeping up with my 15" high-excursion sub and even at high volumes the bass stays up front. I have measured a ~4% THD @ 80Hz / 110dB output (measured at listening position, all 4 mids playing) which is pretty damn good imo.

These are pretty good drivers though, here's a HD graph of the Seas L16 @ 96dB/1m. Not bad for a 5,5" driver! 

Btw, Fs(c) can be mostly disregarded if you put the drivers in a sealed box, my Fsc is at 141Hz yet I push them at full power one octave below that.


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## Focused4door (Aug 15, 2015)

garysummers said:


> The door enclosures Scott built for me have no wood in them. All fiberglass with an aluminum ring glassed in to mount the driver. The finish door is not much heavier than OEM, but solid as a rock. Previously with all my deadening efforts, dynamat, modeling clay, etc, the door weighed so much I ripped off several door handles.


Did you have to do anything to get the aluminum to bond properly? I know from the boating world getting good bonding to aluminum can be a problem, lots of different products on the market to choose from. 

Seems like the vibration from driving and from the speaker would work it free over time. 



Patrick Bateman said:


> Can a moderator give Gary a proper title? "DIYMA Novice" seems a bit unfair


With only 301 posts what could that guy possibly know... :laugh:


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## 000zero (Mar 12, 2011)

Now I'm curious to try this


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Focused4door said:


> Did you have to do anything to get the aluminum to bond properly? I know from the boating world getting good bonding to aluminum can be a problem, lots of different products on the market to choose from.
> 
> Seems like the vibration from driving and from the speaker would work it free over time.



So far so good! Solid as a rock!
Been hammering on them for a year plus change!


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Hanatsu said:


> Here's some data on my enclosures for those who are interested;
> 
> The drivers are a pair of Seas L16RN-SL (H1480) - 8ohm.
> 
> ...



Those are very interesting plots. 
So what do you mean fs can be negated in a sealed box? So if I have let's say A pro audio 8" driver with a paper cone paper surround and fs is 70 and I put it in a sealed box I can run it down to 35? I believe in what your saying because the same speaker I have took away the HPF completely and lowered the gain so it can handle the power , and it sounds way way better on the band above fs than it does with a HPF and it has decent output as well , no eq . So if I put it in a sealed box do you think it would be able to dig deep 50hz or lower with some gain added?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

oabeieo said:


> Those are very interesting plots.
> So what do you mean fs can be negated in a sealed box? So if I have let's say A pro audio 8" driver with a paper cone paper surround and fs is 70 and I put it in a sealed box I can run it down to 35? I believe in what your saying because the same speaker I have took away the HPF completely and lowered the gain so it can handle the power , and it sounds way way better on the band above fs than it does with a HPF and it has decent output as well , no eq . So if I put it in a sealed box do you think it would be able to dig deep 50hz or lower with some gain added?


Fs and Qt will determine the highpass function of the system, i.e how the low end extension looks. These parameters are related to motor control/complience. The lower the Q you have the more controlled motion you got at resonance "Fs(c)". Control in this regard lowers efficiency. The lower Fs you got the lower the extension will be and if you got a Q above 0.7 you will get an increasingly non-flat response around resonance (peaking). 

Efficiency isn't limited to these two parameters but if you trying to reproduce frequencies below Fs you will need to rely on processing to bring up response in this region (even considering the transfer function of the car). Boosting requires power, 3dB is twice the amplifier output. 

Basically you can run any sealed enclosure as low as you want as long as you got enough displacement and power. In a sealed box output is proportional to displacement, excursion and cone area. How clean it will sound is highly driver specific, i.e how bad the non-linear distortion gets once you start push your drivers. 

Skickat från min SM-G900F via Tapatalk


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Focused4door said:


> Did you have to do anything to get the aluminum to bond properly? I know from the boating world getting good bonding to aluminum can be a problem, lots of different products on the market to choose from.
> 
> Seems like the vibration from driving and from the speaker would work it free over time.
> 
> ...


Delamination is a strange thing.
I built a fairly elaborate horn a few months ago, and used my favorite glue to bond wood to plastic. The glue is really nasty stuff, in some ways it's nastier than epoxy. When you get it on your hands, it will peel off your skin before it will "let go." Even epoxy doesn't do that.

After the speaker cured one day, the two sides just peeled apart perfectly. It delaminated so much, you'd think it was a two part mold.

Airbus ran into issues with laminating aluminum to fiberglass. Basically makes me nervous to fly their big jumbo. (The A580 I think?)

Boeing had delam issues with the Dreamliner too.


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

in last 10 years I installed only one pair of mid bass drivers IB, all other in sealed and ported enclosures... I try to get away with enclosures with Qtc not much higher than 1. The results are IMHO always better compared to IB installed mid bass drivers.
Im somehow on the same boat as Hanatsu is....
I have friend who runs car audio shop, I made him try ported enclosures for mid bass drivers.....now he exclusively fab more or less only ported enclosures for all his customers, and they all are fascinated how much output they have with such MB install....definitely worth to try.....if you don't like the result just block vent to make it sealed - you can also add variovent (dynaudio or Scanspeak) or you can open back of enclosure and run drivers IB, many different options.....
The only downside is the shear weight of well damped enclosures with thick walls.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Interesting.. So if a guy had enough space in-front of the door metal, you could build a volume of some kind in a FG enclosure with driver mounted in front of course, then a variovent, venting into the stock speaker hole behind the driver into the door. Might work. Might also assist with standing or backwaves behind the driver. hmmm 

The enclosure volume space could run front to rear along the lower part of the card, blending into the card above. That'd be a helluva build I think. If I score some extra cards, I gotta try it. I picture a glassed back face against the door metal, shaped in to be nice and strong. Once done, decoupled from the door with CCF, but maybe mounted with rivnuts and rubber washers to seal it. Then lots of CAF-level front fabrication to blend in and look killer with the rest of the card. No reason also you couldn't angle the speaker baffles for better placement closer to on-axis as well.. Just imagining, it sounds like a win win win all around.. Variovent advantages. Decoupled enclosure advantages. Driver placement advantages.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Rhaaa I waited for this discussion for a while and it came out when I was out playing Robinson!
Personal experience > totally convinced.
But damn' it can be long to build, 4/5 week ends on mines and I still want to restart from scratch.




Patrick Bateman said:


> Airbus ran into issues with laminating aluminum to fiberglass. Basically makes me nervous to fly their big jumbo. (The A580 I think?)
> [/font]


A380, you should really try it, it's a limo compared to others


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

I just blew the dayton 8" in my door yesterday.... feeding them 300 watts wasnt the best idea. Lolol but now i find myself painted in a corner. I like having a larger midbass driver up front- but i dont like resonance issues. ..... but the problem is that I have heard Mickeys Passat first handedly. ... the sound of a ported 10" pro audio driver up front is simply amazing..... but im afraid to completely redo my doors, so im going to try a 6.5 in my kick panels. But let me tell you.... Mickey and his Passat has an amazing amount of clean midbass up front. It can be done successfully in your doors, but you need to commit to going over the top and re engineering the whole door structure. You cant just just dip your toes in the water on this subject........either dive head first or sit on the patio.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Here is one using the Maps pocket on the door panel, it is a lot of work.




http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1438429-post81.html


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1441359-post88.html


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1445640-post90.html


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1485931-post121.html


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

I'm doing it! Just ordered a set of 10g40s! I sold the 8g40 and yanking the dyns and morels out and throwing them away! 

So I will need some help on the enclosures ? I can fab like no other, but I will need some you brainiacs to help. I need to know how much volume to give it, and what passive radiator to use. I need it to take 50hz by the balls and slam 315hz snare drum with the least colorations as possible. I estimate to have about 1.25ft3 to work with , I plan to use it all if need be. Also what do I line the interior with. My dash pods I used thick carpet after trying about every foam and damping material and clay, the carpet got rid of all the pod ring for most part. Should I do that? I'm also planing move the main driver more torwards middle of car, will that ruin my sound stage up to 500hz? Thanks in advance? I start fab as soon as woofers show up.


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

I800C0LLECT said:


> Then I went 3-way and luckily after reading about Andy W. winning a SQ contest in europe with the MS-8 + factory BMW + aftermarket sub the light bulb went on! *Now I have his GB60 mid-bass sealed under my seats.* If you want my recommendation that's the only way to do it.


You got my attention, please elaborate more on those under the seat mids. How do they sound under the seat??? I am considering the same set as well.


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## Regus (Feb 1, 2011)

oabeieo said:


> I'm doing it! Just ordered a set of 10g40s! I sold the 8g40 and yanking the dyns and morels out and throwing them away!
> 
> So I will need some help on the enclosures ? I can fab like no other, but I will need some you brainiacs to help. I need to know how much volume to give it, and what passive radiator to use. I need it to take 50hz by the balls and slam 315hz snare drum with the least colorations as possible. I estimate to have about 1.25ft3 to work with , I plan to use it all if need be. Also what do I line the interior with. My dash pods I used thick carpet after trying about every foam and damping material and clay, the carpet got rid of all the pod ring for most part. Should I do that? I'm also planing move the main driver more torwards middle of car, will that ruin my sound stage up to 500hz? Thanks in advance? I start fab as soon as woofers show up.


By placing the main driver further from the front of the car, you will in theory be closer to an Opsodis alignment for the midbass frequencies i.e. closer to the maximum time delay possible for sound to arrive at each ear, which you would get with speakers at 90 degrees and 180 degrees. There is evidence to suggest that this can work well in a car - see the following thread if you want to know more:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ussion/150134-crazy-imaging-stock-system.html


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Regus said:


> By placing the main driver further from the front of the car, you will in theory be closer to an Opsodis alignment for the midbass frequencies i.e. closer to the maximum time delay possible for sound to arrive at each ear, which you would get with speakers at 90 degrees and 180 degrees. There is evidence to suggest that this can work well in a car - see the following thread if you want to know more:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ussion/150134-crazy-imaging-stock-system.html


Thank you ! I'll read all of it!


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## Shane (Oct 8, 2009)

So I've been sitting on the fence about building a fiberglass door enclosure to hold a JL Audio ZR800 8" midbass driver (Fs 46.27HZ) in my Chevy Tahoe. After reading this thread I'm going to go with the advice I've read here and am going to install midbass in the front doors. 

Going to put 300W on each driver. The recommended volume sealed is 0.7 cuft. Anybody have any other suggestions???
(This will be a three way system with a Dynaudio tweeter, off axis, and a Dynaudio 6.5" midrange in infinite baffle setup). 

Thanks guys!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

That speaker, I would use IB.


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## Shane (Oct 8, 2009)

IB even though JL recommends a 0.7cuft enclosure?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You know how large .7 cubes is on a door?


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## Shane (Oct 8, 2009)

It's big but I have some sheet metal removed and the enclosure is going to be built under where the window will go. I can achieve about 0.65cuft

The bottom section of the door has a pocket that's now removed and I'll end up having the lower third of the door stick out approximately 3" from where it used to be. This way I can achieve about 0.65cuft sealed. 

Presently, I have the back half of the enclosure complete (the side that's molded to the door; all with fiberglass. 

All that's left is to mount the MDF rings, fleece and fiberglass the front. I'll add sufficient reinforcement where appropriate obviously.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

The ZR800 is very impressive IB, I'd go that route.


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Shane said:


> It's big but I have some sheet metal removed and the enclosure is going to be built under where the window will go. I can achieve about 0.65cuft
> 
> The bottom section of the door has a pocket that's now removed and I'll end up having the lower third of the door stick out approximately 3" from where it used to be. This way I can achieve about 0.65cuft sealed.
> 
> ...


I would recommend determining, as close as you can, the volume you can achieve on the door and build a box with that volume. Put the JL mid bass in it and see how it sounds. If you build the box low profile enough you could place it in the car to approximate being on the door.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Shane said:


> So I've been sitting on the fence about building a fiberglass door enclosure to hold a JL Audio ZR800 8" midbass driver (Fs 46.27HZ) in my Chevy Tahoe. After reading this thread I'm going to go with the advice I've read here and am going to install midbass in the front doors.
> 
> Going to put 300W on each driver. The recommended volume sealed is 0.7 cuft. Anybody have any other suggestions???
> (This will be a three way system with a Dynaudio tweeter, off axis, and a Dynaudio 6.5" midrange in infinite baffle setup).
> ...


You can make enclosures ridiculously small, especially if you have EQ and a crossover to fix the bump you get at the low end when a box is too small. Just because JL recommends 0.7 cubic feet doesn't mean that's what you have to use. All of the books and articles that recommend enclosures of a specific size are based on theories which don't hold a lot of water in a world of cheap DSP and amplification.


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## Shane (Oct 8, 2009)

There is a big learning curve that I need to be on when it comes to the Thiel Small parameters. I don't know why Mikes VW Passat Ciare 10" Pro mid bass does so well in his doors. Sure, I understand excursion and db efficiency but I'm at a loss from there. 
The above explanation with enclosure size is a little lost on me. Any good articles to read?!?

Thanks!

As far as eq and processing goes, I'm using a Mosconi 6to8 and a Pioneer DEH 80PRS with each speaker getting its own active channel.

Maybe I should try a pair of the pro audio Ciare 10" drivers? I'm putting 300W to each driver so there's plenty of power??


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Shane said:


> There is a big learning curve that I need to be on when it comes to the Thiel Small parameters. I don't know why Mikes VW Passat Ciare 10" Pro mid bass does so well in his doors. Sure, I understand excursion and db efficiency but I'm at a loss from there.
> The above explanation with enclosure size is a little lost on me. Any good articles to read?!?
> 
> Thanks!
> ...


Linkwitz transform


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Patrick Bateman said:


> You can make enclosures ridiculously small, especially if you have EQ and a crossover to fix the bump you get at the low end when a box is too small. Just because JL recommends 0.7 cubic feet doesn't mean that's what you have to use. All of the books and articles that recommend enclosures of a specific size are based on theories which don't hold a lot of water in a world of cheap DSP and amplification.


Fix the bump of 12db at 100hz and 125 and 160, with tons of colorations , but he would sure feel the snap. Tiny enclosures do work but at the expense of a smooth sounding natural sound in my Pinyan


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Shane said:


> There is a big learning curve that I need to be on when it comes to the Thiel Small parameters. I don't know why Mikes VW Passat Ciare 10" Pro mid bass does so well in his doors. Sure, I understand excursion and db efficiency but I'm at a loss from there.
> The above explanation with enclosure size is a little lost on me. Any good articles to read?!?
> 
> Thanks!
> ...



Mike has inspired me as well. So has Gary's car. I'm doing it starting this next week I got my drivers . It's going to be very big tumor looking , but I'm after 1 cube internal


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

oabeieo said:


> Fix the bump of 12db at 100hz and 125 and 160, with tons of colorations , but he would sure feel the snap. Tiny enclosures do work but at the expense of a smooth sounding natural sound in my Pinyan


Depends on a lot of factors. Not saying that you speaking in absolutes, but driver selection and how far you push the boundaries makes a difference as to how much coloration, if any, might occur. There are a few drivers I can think of that if used as the typical mobile audio midbass, say from 80 to 300hz that would work very well in a tiny box. The real cost is to sensitivity, but that's where the inexpensive power comes into play.


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## Shane (Oct 8, 2009)

oabeieo said:


> Mike has inspired me as well. So has Gary's car. I'm doing it starting this next week I got my drivers . It's going to be very big tumor looking , but I'm after 1 cube internal


What midbass drivers are you using??

I went with the JL ZR800 but might go with some pro audio drivers if it's recommended..


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## Shane (Oct 8, 2009)

Orion525iT said:


> Depends on a lot of factors. Not saying that you speaking in absolutes, but driver selection and how far you push the boundaries makes a difference as to how much coloration, if any, might occur. There are a few drivers I can think of that if used as the typical mobile audio midbass, say from 80 to 300hz that would work very well in a tiny box. The real cost is to sensitivity, but that's where the inexpensive power comes into play.


What drivers would you recommend?? 

I am currently going with the JL ZR800 but that's because it's a dedicated midbass. But I'm open to better suggestions though...


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Fascinating thread

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


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## Izay123 (Jun 9, 2009)

Shane said:


> What drivers would you recommend??
> 
> 
> 
> I am currently going with the JL ZR800 but that's because it's a dedicated midbass. But I'm open to better suggestions though...




FASCINATING INDEED! 

I decided to go with full enclosures for Midbass this time around after my experience with the build in my old BMW. 

I had four Dynaudio MW172 drivers, (2 per front door) mounted on very well-made Baltic Birch baffles, with the rear of the speakers breathing into the door cavity. 

The BMW looked great, sounded decent, ( I won several 1st place SQ trophies in IASCA Pro/Am division) but didn't quite have the attack /decay I wanted. They also didn't get quite as loud/play as low as I had hoped before they started bottoming out. While tuning the setup one time, I accidentally ran a LOW TONE through one pair of BOSTON 5-1/4 SPZ50 MIDS--& for a second I thought all four 8s were playing! Needless to say, that opened my eyes to how good the right speaker as a sealed midbass could sound (each SPZ50 was in its own airspace inside a small sealed fiberglass enclosure). 

Take a look at the beautiful work Tom Miller at Musicar Northwest did on the doors:












Tom built dual baffles: one mounted to the front of the fiberglass enclosure inside the door cavity, and the other as part of the door card (which held the Grills in place and fit very tightly against the initial baffle).

The enclosure was my idea: build a fiberglass pod that reaches behind the dual mids, giving each mid it's own separate airspace, while at the same time allowing the allowing the basket Side of the dual 8" midbasses to breathe into the door for airspace. Tom took it upon himself to further increase sealed airspace by building the sealed SPZ pods to also use the airspace AROUND THE SIDES of the 8s. The back of each 8 is then free-air into the door. (I think Musicar NW has a few pics up of my BMW build on Flickr, but I lost the majority of the build pics when I broke my old phone before backing them up.)

After all that work, & plenty of ZAPCO Z series amplification on tap, I still didn't have monster midbass.

I decided to fix that with the current build (it's in a Range Rover). I'm having the installation done right now--one Audiofrog GB10D2 10" Sub in each FRONT door, mounted in sealed, to-spec enclosures, with PLENTY of power on tap for each one. I'm even toying with the idea of running a ZAPCO Z-3KD for each GB10D2.

The enclosures are being welded out of plate steel. The door metal was first cut to size, and then frame welded together from angle iron was installed to reduce/eliminate any flex in the interior metal doorskin. The next step includes welding the plates together & to the angle iron to form the enclosure. Internal braces will be made from 1/4" Steel rod, welded to the enclosure walls at strategic points.

The front face of the door enclosure will be made out of 3/4" MDF that's bolted to the 1/4" thick steel mounting flange. This allows for cosmetic changes (CNC'd designs, anyone?) down the road & serviceability of the enclosure, since the angle iron Brace/mounting flange will be a PITA to remove once its riveted into place using 1/4" rivets. You can see the angle iron mounting flange in place here:









I will additionally treat the inside of each enclosure with CLD tiles from Don at SDS and Blackhole 5. I'm undecided on adding a bit of POLYFIL. 

Here you can see the trimmed door card, cut back enough to allow for the enclosure size of .6 cubes sealed plus woofer displacement etc. 











After the structural work is completed by Chris at Kramer's Car body & car stereo, I will take the vehicle to Tom Miller to complete the artistic cosmetic portion of the build. I may wait a few months in between so that I can listen , break-in & tune the set-up before it's fully completed. 



A few months ago, I sat down with Tom Miller & shared my System details as well as my two-shop dual stage construction plan: After finalizing a design goal, I'd Have the second-generation auto body structural guru/audio hobbyist (Chris Kramer) start & complete the internals & structural parts of the installation, & then turn the project over to Tom so he could use his skill & artistry to create a finished product that's truly one of a kind. 

Before starting the install, I asked Tom to draw out his concept of what the new door panels would look like, taking into account my gear selection, placement, & performance goals. He came up with an exceptional design --& did not charge exorbitantly for the service (of course with the understanding that the cosmetic work will be done at his shop). Here's a pic of the drawing. It's so pretty! I can't wait to see the final product once everything is done!! 










I encourage everyone to keep thinking outside the box--That's what makes our hobby so interesting, fun, & rewarding.


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